187 Matching Annotations
  1. Feb 2019
    1. Florida Dept of Fraud

      I'd noticed, but I'm suppressing response to Kevmolenr. his comments are dense with ignorance. It is possible that someone might get a prosecutor interested in the perjury issue, but I'd imagine it quite difficult, without a complainant (and who was harmed by the perjury? It's not obvious). To develop the evidence enough for a criminal trial would required more investment in investigation. Without the findings in the civil trial providing a basis, I'd imagine getting a prosecutor interested could be difficult, and who has the time? A phone call would not work.

    1. every person and organization and government he has ever dealt with

      Ampenergo, AFAIK, made money dealing with Rossi. On the other hand, maybe IH recovered it, or agreed with Ampenergo that, since the Settlement Agreement was a revision without Ampenergo's consent, it could be voided, but that it was not worth doing that unless value appeared. We never saw the original agreement with Ampenergo, nor the side-agreement between IH and Ampenergo. I think they were paid about $5 million by IH, and were in line to get more if IH had paid Rossi more.

    2. almost a year

      five years (2012-2017)

    3. It was most probably IH who accepted the settlement at the last second.

      People without knowledge toss around "probably: to mean :"I imagine." As I recall, Rossi had refused to settle the day before the trial was opening and Lukacs asked to speak with the Jones Day lead attorney. My opinion is that Lukacs

      1. Told Rossi that if there was no settlement, he could not only lose all the legal fees, and a judgment, but might also be convicted of perjury. "Yes, I know, Doctor Rossi, it is unfair, but this is life. Next time keep receipts!."
      2. Told IH that Rossi needed to have the IP back or he would go down fighting. So whereas holding on to the IP was a good general strategy by game theory (0,1% chance, say, of a trillion dollars, vs a few million, a good bet any day if you can afford to lose (and they could), they were going to have to put in a few million and five weeks of nuisance to insure it, and since they believed it was bogus . . . why not give it up? Lukacs was kind of an asshole, my opinion, but I think he did a spectacular piece of lawyering. He was hired last-minute, and had a reputation for negotiating settlements.
    4. you do not fool a man with a sharp mind like Focardi.

      This is speculation. Anyone can be fooled. People who were very sharp when younger can become quite dull with age. Or, more accurately, the sharpness can become unreliable.

    5. It was simply not a scalable solution.

      this is speculation. Much of the control was or could have been automated. With experience at operation, efficiency should improve. If the device actually required what I called "Rossi grease," someone else could have been trained to provide it, with Rossi available for consultation.

    6. the ones that have been able to achieve at least partial replications of his results.

      That is, within reason, nobody. Because someone finds XP from some nickel and Lithal is not a "partial replication of his results," it is only the weakest of general confirmation. Replication requires exact (or at least very substantial) identity of protocol.

    1. Told us the customers did not want it anymore

      Basically, he lies sixty ways till Sunday. He has learned that it doesn't matter if his lies are obvious, people want to believe so much that they will believe almost anything, and make up reasons for it if he does not supply them.

    2. Why did he fight so hard to regain full control of IP that does not work

      Because he could then pretend what he told to Lewan, that that is what he really wanted. He didn't really want the $89 million, that was peanuts compared to the Real Value of his Magnificence.

    3. why did IH want it in their countersuit

      They didn't.

    4. Unless you find a written agreement (required also by contract) signed by ALL parties

      This is correct and obvious from the agreement and amendments. Rossi argued estoppel, that IH had consented to proceeding differently, but was unable to find, as far as we know, evidence to that effect, only assumptions that Rossi made. I.e., if Penon, the "ERV" for the orignial Validation Test, measured power in Doral, he was therefore ERV for a Guaranteed Performance Test. If IH had agreed to that, it would have been extraordinarily dumb. It does not appear that they did. Rossi set up something that resembled a GPT, but without the critical agreements, and his behavior during the Doral operation would have demolished it as a GPT in any case. As one example, suppose he did install a heat exchanger, which would have been necessary from Day One. No heat exchanger was described in the system diagram provided by Penon. Monitoring equipment installed by IH, testimony showed, was removed by Rossi. Penon was only present on four occasions, and mostly depended on information fed to him by Rossi (just as the JMP "invoice requests" were based on information from Rossi, not measured independently as contemplated in the Terms Sheet. It goes on and on.

    5. regain complete ownership of the IP

      He did not want to be answerable to anyone else. He took the money from IH, but, as they point out in their Answer and Countercomplaint, either had no real technology, or had not disclosed it. Either way, deceptive or delusional.

    6. retained some rights to the IP

      Rossi never surrendered his "rights to the IP," but only granted IH a license for about half the planet and agreed to full disclosure.. There was no aspect to the agreement that required IH to keep the technology secret, they certainly could have shared it with partners. Rossi retained exclusive rights for half the planet, except as he agreed with others. IH was granted a "right of first refusal" in those other areas, but this would not prevent him from making arrangements with others, only from neglecting the rights of IH.

    7. the choices IH made

      to invest in other avenues of approach to LENR, and not to pursue Rossi technology.

    8. this fact

      not a fact

    9. Me be doubt.

      People get crazy about COP. If the device puts out heat, at least for a time, with no energy input, that would be infinite COP. It can be meaningless. For how long does it do this? Any system with feedback of power to provide whatever is needed to keep the system going will "self-sustain," which is infinite COP. Skepticism is appropriate because demonstrations of this are rare, but there is nothing terribly surprising. To get "infinite COP," insulate the reactor, and control cooling. If it is generating any power, pretty much, it could go "infinite" and still not be a practical device, for various reasons.

    10. IH was asking for Rossi's IP in their initial countersuit.

      The "initial countersuit.". There is a reference to the IP in paragraph 9 of the Counterclaim.

    11. Just to make sure we are on the same page

      This is correct. A lawyer pointed out that if there was a successful GPT, the $89 million would become a debt, but the license would not be cancelled if it were not paid. So the IP transfer occurred in 2013, and IH worked on attempting to make working devices until at least 2016, possibly beyond that. The Agreement did provide that Rossi would be their Chief Scientist, I think for a year. IH made the Lugano device, and Rossi was very proud of it. They made others, and tested them themselves. They seemed to work, then they accidentally mixed up an unfueled device with the lot, and it showed the same "XP". Oops! They called Rossi, and Rossi showed up, and together Darden and Rossi opened up the reactor. No fuel! This is in the Darden deposition. Rossi stormed out with "The Russians stole the fuel!" But it did not matter how the fuel disappeared (and this had been a deliberate dummy reactor, it appaers). What mattered was that the test method was defective. IH claimed that they never got confirmed XP.

      This is what some miss: if this technology worked, they would never have let it go just to avoid more legal expenses. They had secured a commitment for $200 million from Woodford if needed. They were prepared to pay. So ... why didn't they pay? It's obvious, actually.

      In mercato veritas, Rossi's favorite saying. Well, the market judged. The technology was worthless.

    1. The agreement for the testing (to be done within a certain time frame that was not observed) was for the 6 cylinder system not what was done in Fl.

      And that amendment (that's what it was) had actually failed. The 6 Cylinder unit thing was a formality that probably could have been considered irrelevant. The judge wanted to know more about it. She was incorrect, actually, but IH may not have been as clear as needed. The real issue was that the time had passed, and that the Doral test was not the GPT. No evidence appears that IH ever agreed that it was, and all that would have been necessary. If Rossi's technology was legitimate, he was incredibly sloppy. But I find no reason to believe it was legitimate, at all. He would have been a billionaire by now if it was. IH had the motivation and the access to funding, and was willing to give Rossi whatever. Up to a point!

    2. The $89 million would have been paid for a successful 1 year test

      The 1 year test did not happen timely. Rossi blamed IH, but IH showed that it was Rossi who rejected a local test, in North Carolina. arguing that a test in Florida with an "independent customer" would be much more convincing. , Further, the way the agreement was written, it doesn't matter whose fault it was (unless it could be shown that IH actively prevented it.) IH agreed with Rossi to allow a postponement to a future date, to be determined by written agreement of all the parties, but all amendments to the Agreement required the written agreement of all parties, and Ampenergo, a party, refused to sign. Rossi didn't mention that but I noticed it immediately from the copy he filed. I thought that this was his file copy, not the fully executed document. No, the amendment failed. So there was no possibility of an $89 million payment for a 1 year test unless IH voluntarily agreed to it. No evidence appeared that IH consented, they only consented to a sale of power.

    3. The contract said they paid $11.5M for a year-long demo of the devices, and that an agreed-to independent third party would evaluate them and say yay or nay. If Yay, then they would buy the IP for $89M. The party said Yay, and IH did not pay. Instead, they hired someone else a few months later to dispute the 3rd party report.

      False and misleading account, dense with error. Many other errors follow.

    1. This convincingly demonstrates

      More or less my conclusion as well. Woodford's representatives visited the Doral reactor and were apparently not impressed. They were investing in LENR, long-term, not Rossi. Rossi claims to have been convinced by this that he should not work with IH. He wants to be the center of the LENR universe..

    1. gist of the case must be presented during discovery

      That is not what he said and not what he meant. There is no requirement that "the gist of the case be presented during discovery." The gist of the case is presented in the Complaint and Answer (and Counter-Complaint). Discovery is a period when the parties may demand and receive information from other parties. We saw so much evidence in this period because of many Motions supported by exhibits, some of which were obtained during discovery. At least that's how I understand it.

    1. You are indeed wrong on this point

      An actual lawyer here.

    2. You're just trying to push me into a corner.

      I am abandoning commentary on kevmolenr, unless someone else comments with something interesting.

    3. Rossi scores 100%

      'Right. But something has changed. Rossi's insanity in suing Industrial Heat has provided a trove of evidence as to Rossi's actual behavior, often in his own words, in his emails, and his testimony under oath in depositions. There is the same as well from those who did business with him, and paid him many millions of dollars. All this was, before, secret. And now Sifferkoll is claiming that there is a campaign to discredit Rossi. I have seen no signs of a campaign. IH is silent on Rossi (Dewey Weaver is not IH). I am a blogger interested in reporting fact, and I also report analysis, recognizing the difference.

      (As I recall, Sifferkoll claimed before that I was paid by IH. I have not received a penny from anyone associated with IH, not so far, and I haven't asked for it.)

      If people want fact, it is available. There is also opinion from real people with their real names associated, who testified under oath. And there are torrents of opinion from others, some of which is knowledgeable, much of which is not. Welcome to the internet.

    1. offering one 20 kW unit that almost anyone might be able to put to work.

      It's a complicated issue. First of all, discussions should be conditional. It's all meaningless if he actually has no power to sell, except perhaps fraudulently, and the claim that this could not possibly be fraudulent misses some obvious possibilities. But if he actually has real reactors and if, for some reason, he cannot patent them or is otherwise worried about theft of the IP, multiplying up the number of customers would increase risk. Hence the strategy of, with limited production, making larger installations.

      But at this point it is vaporware. Rossi claimed to have 20 KW units ready for sale in 2011, and his "1 MW reactor" was simply a pile of them. He could have been selling small units from 2011 on, but did not. He could have been selling power from then on, unless he was lying, but did not, except for a fake sale to himself. IH did not prevent him from proceeding, they could not.

    2. Deals are being Negotiated as We Speak

      I have annotated this with hypothes.is.

    3. That, not a Rossi boondoggle, would have been an investment.

      There is a reason why the IH partners can move billions, and so many simply move warm air. Krivit stated the obvious, with lots of polemic and inference. They needed to know, and relying on Krivit would not have created any benefit. They knew that Rossi could be a fraud. But a fraud could also have something real and be, as has been pointed out, "paranoid" and perhaps "unethical." They needed to find out, and they said that if there was even 1% chance of the Rossi Effect being real, it would be worth the investment. In hindsight, they obviously concluded that there was not even that chance (or they would never have let go of the license.) People who invest in long shots know that a long shot not working out is not proof of a mistake. Could they have known in a better way? Perhaps, but what they did, they could afford, and, in fact, it worked for them, so calling it a mistake is essentially stupid. They invested $25 million, and as a result of that bold move, made with eyes wide open, knowing that it could easily and even probably fail, they raised $50 milllion from Woodford, and Woodford, by that time, knew that Rossi success had become very unlikely. So they amplified their $25 million for research into $50 million, and Woodford committed to up to a total of $200 million. So Rossi's claims that IH never intended to pay and couldn't pay if they needed to, were all blowing smoke. What actually happened, and this comes out, and one would think that Lewan would realized the implications, is that they then started investing the $50 million in genuine LENR research, funding Kim, Hagelstein, and others. Rossi saw this and called it "investing in his competitors," and it then becomes an excuse for not cooperating. But, in fact, the failure occurred before then, when IH could not make devices that worked, unless they used the Rossi defective thermal camera calorimetry. Rossi has lied again and again, and continued to lie, to Lewan. Lewan rubs his chin, "Well, maybe."

    4. , why were they asking for his IP in the civil case?

      They did not "ask for his IP in a civil case." This paragraph is dense with error. IH did not designate Penon as a "3rd party dude." Rossi wanted Penon to measure the heat, it was not the Guaranteed Performance Test, and it had no legal consequences, since the time for the GPT had lapsed and Ampenergo refused to allow an extension, and Rossi knew that, so he created a faux GPT, just like he created a faux customer. Since it was legally moot, they consented, they gave Rossi rope to hang himself with, one way of putting it. By that then end of that "test", Rossi had abandoned all cooperation and refused to allow IH to inspect their plant with their own engineer. Because the customer would not allow it. But he was actually the customer. This thing sucked sixty ways till Sunday, IH had effectively walked well before then. The idea that the sale of power would continue was a charade. Rossi had no intention of continuing a sale of power, and there never really was a purchase of power. Kevmolenr is making up Bad Things they did, cobbed together from Rossi's claims, apparently believing them.

      The only way to persist in this, as Kevmolenr is doing, is to lie or to willfully maintain ignorance of the actual evidence, Rossi's emails, his own arguments at trial, the depositions, etc.

    5. abandoned without trace

      Not just IP. Both plants and all models. So, supposedly, a 1 MW plant existed, if it ever existed. Ready to be installed. Ready for sale of heat. Instead, apparently dismantled for scrap. Does this make sense? If nothing else, all he had to do was find a real customer, instead of a fake one. He could have been selling power in Sweden any time, the Agreement did not prevent that. He had half the planet for a market. (There was a right of first refusal for IH, which Rossi then claimed allowed them to interfere, but that's a misrepresentation.)

      If he really had a product, he could have been making millions or more. The one plant was worth for sale of power at a reduced rate, maybe $300,000 per year, and cost $200,000 to build, he told IH. When the case settled in 2017, he then had it back, no need to make a new one, and with a working demo to be shown, easy to raise more money, and that was the argument he made to IH to induce them to agree to let him install the plant in Florida. I think that by that time, they were pretty burned out on Rossi, so . . . why not let him run that thing?

    6. ndeed. Rossi's genius, which seems completely to have bamboozled IHFB, is to turn "one specific potential error did not happen" into "my stuff works.

      THH goes on with what is obvious to those who have studied the case.

    1. You were THERE. You had FAR more opportunity to catch this glaringly obvious issue than those of us commenting from outside.

      I think he is talking about the heat exchanger. No, I don't think Dewey ever visited Doral. We do not know when it became obvious to IH that the reactor, if generating a megawatt, would have killed everyone. I think they did do some IR surveillance in some way, but there were difficulties with presenting it. (That warehouse would have lit up like a football stadium if imaged with the kind of surveillance used to detect marijuana growers. And that is with or without a heat exchanger.) Rossi had claimed, in public that no heat exchanger was necessary, because the heat was being "used" in an endothermic reaction. Then he claimed that cooling was accomplished with some broken ceiling fans, or the back door, and he later claimed to Mats Lewan that a megawatt of power would not be a problem, because the solar irradiance on the area of the warehouse was more than a megawatt. Totally misleading, and Mats knows enough physics to see through it, but did not question it, because, I infer, Mats knows what happens to people who question the Gospel According to Rossi. They are excommunicated.

    2. it's time'to just directly call you a liar

      Except he is not lying, though Dewey does, ah, "interpret" the facts with a certain color. It's obvious what is factual and what is not. What is not factual is interpretation, and Dewey does have a right, as we all do,.to interpret. He's actually an expert on Rossi, compared to nearly everyone commenting. He actually met him and saw him in action. Because Rossi took an immediate dislike to Dewey, because he pulled out a heat-gun (optical pyrometer), Dewey did not directly witness much, but he knows much from his friends and fellow investors. These are people who put millions of dollars into Rossi technology, and to discount their opinions is to discard "in mercato veritas." They actually bought the product, and worked with it for years.

    3. He had no choice but to conjure up the imaginary, mystical, silent and all powerful heat exchanger.

      Dewey has inside information on IH, but this is his imagination about Rossi. The analysis of the heat exchanger, though, appears to be factual. Because this discussion, like most continuing Rossi discussions, is about whether or not Rossi has an actual technology, this bears on whether or not claims from Rossi can be trusted, and they quite obviously cannot. Most importantly, he has lied to his fans, that became totally clear. But the fans then claim he needed to, because blah, blah. There is real evidence in the case documents for Rossi v. Darden, found here

    4. I don't remember this coming up in the court documents.

      It appeared in a Rossi deposition, never having been seen or mentioned before. The second Smith report covered the impossibility of it, and he only covered part of the problem. A 1 MW heat exchanger will be very, very visible. It wasn't. Also, Rossi claimed that he had hired the "guys off a truck" to install the heat exchanger, and that he bought the materials at Home Depot and did not keep receipts. He would have been asked how he paid for them. He might have said "cash." Statements like that can be checked, and this was a large purchase of piping, it would not be common. I think Lukacs, who had to convince Rossi to let of his $89 million that he had bragged he had absolute proof for, told him, "I know it's not fair, Doctor Rossi, but I am afraid that, to a jury, it is going to look like you made up this story to avoid the heat problem. And for that, you could go to prison."

    5. obviously did not see blatant fraud or she would have reported it to authorities.

      The judge was not operating on that level, so it is not "obvious." I was reading every document filed, and looking up case law, etc. Kevmolenr is just pulling stuff out of a dark place.

      (This is wrong on so many levels. The judge would not be looking for "blatant fraud," and, in fact, blatant fraud was revealed in the case documents. That is, Rossi blatantly defrauded IH in his claims about the customer in Florida, there was abundant and essentially uncontradicted evidence on this, and he did the same about the "independent customer." HIs filings in the Complaint were deceptive. The judge appears to have recognized some of the problems, but decided to give Rossi a full opportunity to show the substance of his case, or else she would have thrown the whole thing out. (She speculated on certain things, and was incorrect about them, they were irrelevant.).

    6. because they will be monitoring the electrical load

      IH Fanboy does not realize how a Ponzi scheme can work. The schemer can be losing money on every transaction and still run away with huge gains. Rossi is offering to sell power below market price. Consider this possible con: he has propane or some other conventional energy source in the Secret /Container, that supplements the power consumption. So he loses money during operation, but not that much. He could keep it up for quite a time! He would then claim that he needs much more money to manufacture devices. He can use testimonials from real customers to solicit this? Is that independent evidence that the technology works? And remember, this guy is known to lie. Even if he tells a really believable story, there is a high probability that he's lying.

    7. Is that possible?

      Sure it is possible. Rossi had a 20 KW water heater, taking water up to boiling and maybe even boiling some. Such water would "steam," especially if the humidity were high. Remember that visible steam is below 100 C. Live steam is invisible. What Stokes saw was visible vapor, which cannot be above the boiling point.

    1. PROOF that there isn't enough evidence

      There is no such proof, not even evidence. That charges are not filed -- this is not something that IH would do, it would be up to the prosecutor for that jurisdiction -- does not show that a filing would fail, it does not even show that a prosecutor considered the issue.

      Kevmolenr is consistently ignoring the actual evidence, and imagining is evidence what is not, but only unwarranted and ignorant assumption.

    2. You obviously haven't been following what I have written

      Kevmolenr is simply searching for anything he can claim is wrong. Rothwell meant, "If this had gone to a jury, and if ..." The actual jury was dismissed because they settled. Instead of looking at the full context, the evidence presented, and the fact that Rossi had sued (not IH!) Kevmolenr is clearly arguing just for the sake of argument. He does not actually study the evidence, and consider what he would have decided if it were presented to him.

    3. then IH would never have settled

      Non sequitur.

    4. those folks were all feckless.

      Blame the victims, eh? IH invested $25 million of their own money in Rossi, and they found out what they needed to know -- that there was no reason to believe that Rossi technology was real, that all the appearances were probably fake. The Swedes, it is disappointing that they did not open up. We don't know why. Maybe it was the wine at Lugano.

    5. he holds LENR in a box

      That is an independent issue. Frauds can have something real, but will they deliver it? Will they keep agreements? And if they lie about customers and other issues, why would we imagine them to be truthful about actual performance? This is why before investing anything in Rossi technology, a sane investor will want to see independent ocnfirmation, truly independent. That Rossi says that a customer is paying for heat? That's what he claimed about the Doral plant!

      He is running the same con. What is remarkable is how many lap it up. Reading about con artists in The Confidence Game (Konnikova), it's normal, actually. People can be very, very reluctant to admit they were fooled. This is normal human psychology. Con artists become expert at manipulating it.

    6. he's a fraud

      He is a fraud.

    7. why did they try to squeeze his IP out of him, if it was so worthles

      This is someone who has accepted the Rossi story, hook, line, and sinker. Rossi had sold the IP to IH, all of it, including future developments. They had a complete right to use it, and a legal expectation that Rossi would honestly disclose it. So what is the "squeeze"? They had paid $10 million for the IP. The Planet Rossi story is that Rossi decided they were out to cheat him, so he did not disclose the Secret to them. If so, he was in violation of the Agreement, yet he went to court to enforce the Agreement, except that the Agreement that he tried to enforce was actually an amendment that was not accepted by Ampenergo.

      The argument is that if the IP was worthless, why didn't they accept Rossi's alleged offer to buy it back by returning their investment?

      1. It is not clear that Rossi ever made such an offer, or, if he did, that it would even come close to providing a return of the investment, most of which did not actually go to Rossi, it went to the R&D effort to confirm the technology. Over double what they gave to Rossi, I estimate. So they had invested in a technology that they could not use. They were aware -- and this is mentioned in the motions -- that Rossi might really have a working Secret and that he was simply withholding it. If real, the technology was worth a trillion dollars. Why should they surrender the license for a few million? However, I'm sure this is the argument Lukacs made to them, when they went out to confer. I speculate: "You say this is worthless. Okay, my client is willing to settle with a walkaway, you return the license and the IP, and no money changes hands." IH had to make a choice: spend another few million in legal expenses to keep the licence (there was absolutely no ground for cancelling the license, that was all more Rossi smokescreen). These are long-term, high-risk investors. What was the probability of Rossi Reality. In spite of the high return if it was real, the probability, they assessed, it is rather obvious, was too low. So they walked.

      In mercato veritas. The market looked, and rejected the technology, having been eager to make it work, hopeful that it would (which is something that Rossi emphasized, why were they so hopeful if it was all junk? -- because they were giving him the full benefit of the doubt, that's why, and we all know the appearances that were presented, the Swedish professors, etc.)

      At this point, with the evidence available in Rossi v. Darden, anyone who invests in Rossi expecting to be treated fairly deserves to lose their investment, for lack of due diligence.

    8. like squeezing blood from a turnip.

      Probably. He had real estate, in his wife's name, I think. I don't think he was judgment-proof.

    9. you need to stop

      Kevmolenr has no idea what Rothwell needs. That someone would have settled does not show they had no proof, and if they had no proof, then the same argument would have applied in the other direction. If Rossi had proof that he had satisfied the Agreement, as he claimed, vociferously, when he filed the suit, then why did he walk away from $89 million, which he could certainly have used for further R&D?

  2. Nov 2018
    1. For the record, I believ they found a real effect, it just has nothing to do with nuclear reactions.

      Shanahan has formed a belief considering only the evidence that he thinks supports it, not all the evidence. Shanahan has been ineffective because he is attacking the work of experts in their fields of expertise, and he has not inspired experimental work to confirm his ideas. Some of his ideas have, in fact, been tested. Nice try, no cigar.

    2. you're not supposed to publish unless you're certain what you report is easily replicated by those 'skilled in the art', especially 'publication by the press'.

      Again, this is part of the standard pseudoskeptical cant about F&P. Original reports are commonly published. They held a press conference, but their paper had already been accepted. They did not, in fact, violate scientific traditions, though they certainly made mistakes. "Easy replication" is not a requirement for science. Some replication is very, very difficult, even impossible. People make up rules in order to attack others for violating the rules they invent.

    3. no one could reproduce it except by random chance.

      this contradicts his theory. His theory suggests that uncontrolled conditions in the material cause an unexpected heat artifact, what is generally accepted is that uncontrolled conditions in the material cause -- rarely! -- a heat anomaly. So Shanahan is not far from the LENR mainstream, in that respect. Except that his theory has, in fact, failed to match experimental results, and practically nobody is listening to him.

    4. F&P drew down the ire of the scientific world because they claimed to have found a way to "infinite energy",

      I don't recall them claiming that. But if they did, why would this arouse "ire." We don't sanely get angry if someone says something stupid, unless it actually threatens us in some way. The threat was? Then, once emotions are aroused, the mind will generate endless rationalizations for them.

    5. 100 labs worldwide did not find any evidence of inexplicable heat or reaction at the time would have been different.

      THH changed his approach later. This reveals, again, a lack of familiarity with the evidence. Half of the 2004 DoE panel concluded in 2004 that the evidence for anomalous heat was "conclusive." That conflicts radically with "did not find any evidence."

      The assumption that had there been any evidence, "reaction at the time" would have been different is obviously false. There was evidence and there was rejection of evidence, commonly without considering balance, and there were moving goalposts.

    6. why are the Low Energy NUCLEAR Reactions (re)searchers never trained NUCLEAR physicists?

      Classic ignorant pseudoskeptical comment, assuming something totally and obviously false, to troll the offensive. Off the top of my head, Miley, Takahashi, but there are many others. Further, the phenomenon discovered was seen in an electrochemical environment, hence it was found and early comfirmations (but not all) were by electrochemists.

  3. Oct 2018
    1. I am sure that IH is keeping at least some tabs on Rossi

      I wouldn't waste a dime on that. Well, maybe a dime.

      If Rossi ever does something truly worthy of attention, it will become well-known rapidly. IH may have a back door to rights, but don't tell anyone. :-)

    2. I will be checking to see what you and others have to say about the presentation.

      It's predictable from prior demonstrations. I'm not going to watch and will not be commenting on the demo, unless others not only comment, but point to something worth watching. In almost a decade, nothing has been worth watching. Rossi sometimes says things that people would do well to accept: in mercato veritas is one of them. But who is listening to the market? Instead, Rossifans listen to RossiSays, attempting to extract truth from a pile of bullshit. From history, they will continue this long after Rossi is gone, looking for the hidden secrets. This has been going on, in one form or other, for thousands of years.

    1. So Okham's Razor is an axiom of physics ??? or philosophy?

      Classic Lenr-Forum "debate." THH did not claim Occam's Razor as an axion to prove a point. This was discussion, and Occam's Razor is a heuristic, not a proof.

    2. the latter does not exist

      Actually, it is likely that LENR produces gammas, this is one of the two major branches of theory (i.e., nuclear emissions -- gammas -- or phonons, which is a very long shot, but maybe. However, the gammas produced are not hot enough to be readily detectred, and it appears that they are almost entirely absorbed in the materials and apparatus. Hence they show up as heat. "Gamma rays" and "X-rays" are the same objects, photons, but gammas are so-called when generated by nuclei, and X-rays when generated by electronic transitions. Jed would surely realize that there are an overwhelming number of "X-ray" reports from LENR.

    1. Krivits is still after the hot fusion industry:
    2. Not one of them would respond so dismissively.

      They aren't Alan Smith,.obviously. I saw that comment. We are getting a series of apparently incomprehensible communications about the Russ George work. It's not surprising, from his history.

    1. it is likely a dead end,

      Well, the probability rises. This is Occam's Razor. Better to back up and look again. The complexity is not a proof, just an "indicator," as said. Some of us desperately want explanations, it's a juvenile reaction (i.e., normal for children). A more successful approach continues to observe, and sometimes to test (i.e., the scientific method). With more data, the pattern recognition engine gets more powerful. Trying to rush the cerebral cortex because of an amygdala hijack weakens the former, which will create something to justify the basic fears and desires of the amygdala. Often it stokes them.

    2. (1) don't believe anything (positive or negative) too strongly while things remain unexplained.

      This is not an "indicator," it is advice, a general heuristic.

    3. wrong

      What is "wrong"? A direction is just a direction. The evolutionary cause for these phenomena is obvious. It is not the "wrong direction:" If I see something on the ground that looks like a quarter, am I "wrong" to reach down and check it if it turns out to not be a quarter? We follow the pattern recognition information, and more often than not, it leads us somewhere useful. But there are obvious pitfalls.

    4. apophenia and pareidolia!
    1. you have a tendency to suggest errors that a child might make, as if nobody but you understands the scientific method.

      People do make astonishingly obvious errors. Pointing them out is not a claim of being the only one who "understands." However, if nobody has pointed out the errors, he would be the "only one who pointed it out." But then Alan doesn't get to accuse him of hubris.

    2. As far as we know successful E-Cat replicators were unable to measure anything beyond background.

      "E-cat" replicators were not repllicating, because they had no clear protocol to replicate. What they found does not stand out clearly from possible artifact and file drawer effect. Not until they achieve clear reproducibility -- as shown by independent replication of their technique and results -- is this information particularly useful. Until a clear and consistent correlation can be found between measurables, all this joins the vast pile of circumstantial evidence, which is inadequate to create progress.

    1. that's where the focus should be

      Martin was correct about the effect that he discovered.

      If someone is making substantial gammas, unless they are quite low energy, it's not the FP Heat Effect. There are gammas everywhere, so the idea that they "shouldn't be there at ALL" is, at best, incautiously stated. There is an issue of level and other correlations and possible artifacts.

      If moderate levels of radiation are shown, the next question will be "so what?" We already know that nuclear reactions can happen in condensed matter.That some ignorant people don't know does not change the fact of what the literature amply shows. The heat/helium correlation, multiply confirmed, shows the reality of that effect. There is another effect, relationship unknown, that generates tritium, at low levels. Convenient to detect, as Jed wrote. X-rays (so-called, they could be gammas, there really is no difference except presumed origin) have also been widely reported under some conditions.

      Unless multiple effects can be correlated, or the process generating an effect can be narrowly characterized and reliably and reproducibly created, finding some gammas is not terribly interesting.

    2. until we can show it doesn't apply in condensed matter

      There is no rule, and Jed's speculation is just that, speculation. There is plenty of evidence that something different is happening in condensed matter, it's actually overwhelming, but the conversation became politically charged and confusing. Few bother to actually study the source papers, instead they prefer endless argument.

      The basic problem is that fusion, in the FP experiment, generates a lot of energy, and releasing that energy without creating charged particles above 10 keV (the "Hagelstein limit") is not easy to understand. I'd say nobody understand it yet. Storms' theory is preposterous. Takahashi TSC theory is not, but Takahashi also has no successful explanation for how the hot fused nucleus discharges the energy without creating charged particles. Even if 8Be manages to cool by a "BOLEP," burst of low-energy photons before it fissions, there would still be about 45 keV with each helium nucleus left. Too high, probably.

      The basic message to convey to physicists is that there are examples of LENR that are not explained by present theory, as far as anyone has been able to show.l Not that the "dogma" is wrong. After all, maybe it's not "fusion." Nobody has a problem with "fusion" with element zero (neutronium, or a neutron). It does not normally generate charged particles, but "activation gammas."

    3. agree, but "you can't prove a negative".

      It's easy to mess up the quotation formatting. Also easy to fix with a close-quote tag. That errors like this commonly persist shows that people don't go back and read their own writing.

    4. playing the role of

      of what?

    5. He assumes only eletrochemical recombination is allowed and that that is limited to 2%.

      This is quite misleading. I don't see the "2% figure." Staker reports this: "Fleischmann and Miles [44] showed recombination is either zero or too small to be a source of heat. There was visual monitoring of cell electrolyte level and exit gasses." It may be correct that Staker does not measure exit gasses. HIs schematic shows an open bubbler, not a measuring one. He explicitly relies on the conclusions of many electrochemists, including the source he references. Shanahan's oft-repeated theory, ATER (At the Electrode Recombination), is a real effect, but it does not occur at significant levels with the higher electrolysis currents involved. Researchers do not reinvent the wheel, necessarily, proving again and again what is already well-known. Fleischmann's response to Morrison's claim of recombination in Physics Letters A (1994). (from the lenr-canr copy, which I have not checked against the as-published paper)

    6. This paper is a good example of how not to convince a skeptic. Science by assertion and assumption rarely does

      Because Staker is using a similar design, he may reasonably assume that conditions are similar. Were his results extraordinary, it could be in order to review every detail, but they were rather ordinary excess heat measurements, and excess heat is properly considered as an established fact, by the preponderance of the evidence. Shanahan continuing to sputter for years does not shift this.

      Shanahan has never engaged in a thorough and open discussion of his ideas, he bails when the going gets tough. The paper was not written to convince skeptics, and is not published to convince skeptics. Shanahan completely misses the point of the Staker paper, because to him it is all irrelevant, since Shanahan Is Right and everyone else is Wrong.

      He is practicing science by assertion, what evidence does he cite? Does he point to a thorough discussion of the issue? No. If there is to be such, he is not about to create it, though he certainly could. One of the items on my agenda is to create such a thorough discussion, because Morrison also came up with this idea. I am working on that old debate on coldfusioncommunity.net, and participation is invited. Shanahan would be especially welcome. He has never accepted such invitations, but hope springs eternal.

    7. I didn't go back and check if he used gamma or '1-gamma' in their equation.

      100%, not 0. Gamma is the Faraday efficiency, how much of the charge transferred (current) is converted to the reaction product (i.e., the gasses). Recombination within the cell will reduce the efficiency, generating heat. If the assumption is made that the gases are released,but, in fact, they recombine within the cell, then there will be a source of heat in the cell. They generally assume 100% efficiency. The efficiency has been measured and it was only low when the current was very low, conditions then allowing substantial contact with the dissolved or circulating gasses and the electrodes such that recombination occurs. This is irrelevant with closed cells, where the gasses are recombined within the cell (so there is no allowance for energy escaping through the gases). Were recombination the source of "excess heat," as was claimed, and Shanahan repeats those claims, the excess heat would disappear when cells were closed. In open cells, substantial excess heat would appear with hydrogen as well as deuterium. These effects do not appear at levels adequate to explain anomalous heat. Not even close.

    1. This paper is a good example of how not to convince a skeptic.

      The paper was not designed or delivered to "convince a skeptic." The impact of the paper has mostly to do with his exploration of SAV theory, see my coverage of that paper and SAV and subpages. Shanahan tells the same story over and over. ATER was covered by Fleischmann and others many times. It happens. At a low rate, and mostly at currents well below those used in these experiments.

    2. the technology

      What technology? We are declaring that a "lab rat" is needed, a clear, reproducible experiment, that is actually confirmed and that works with substantial heat (I forget what figure McKubre has used. Maybe 10 watts). We don't have a "LENR technology." We have a pile of experimental results that collectively show that there is an "anomalous heat effect" and that it is nuclear in origin, as a matter of the preponderance of evidence. And we have many who announce this or that overblown claim, and there are some known frauds, and then lots of people with meaningless opinions.

    3. They start off dreaming of the benefits cold fusion or LENR could bring

      This is not how McKubre started, so this is not "Director"'s experience. It's his shallow, knee-jerk, ignorant judgment. McKubre is not involved in any effort to maintain secrecy, but, given the work he did, and does, he is privy to secrets, which he keeps, as do I when that happens. (Nobody in the field is seeing "extremely positive results." Not that I know of, and I strongly suspect that's true for McKubre as well.) If you are, yourself, interested in "changing our civilization," start by cleaning up how you think. That could make a huge difference.

    4. by assertion and assumption rarely does

      Shanahan repeats his ideas without looking at the real evidence, and as usual, there are no specific references. Yes, electrochemists commonly assume no ATER, because they are experts and ATER impacts Faraday efficiency, and they know the conditions under which it is signifcant and the conditions under which it is not. Readiing the old papers, Fleischmann was addressing this criticism as far back as 1990 or so. I'll be documenting that.

    1. one of his early cells did explode

      Actually, it was not clearly an explosion. It melted down and part of the palladium was vaporized, according to the report. It was not reported at the time, and materials were not kept. The biggest danger in current LENR work is exposure to nanoparticle metals.

  4. Aug 2018
    1. As Rossi says, no experiment will convince the critics, only the sale of commercial reactors. This because he will not disclose how it works.

      Mr. Ashfield repeats an old Rossi deception. Rossi claimed to have a commercial product, to have sold it. More than once. Again and again, he has repeated "in mercato veritas." He engaged with the real market and it spit him out. What would convince skeptics would be devices that they can see working and can test. That means they are available. Whether or not they are being sold is a different matter. Rossi actually will not disclose if it works at all, i.e., by actual truth, as shown by working devices, not by chatter. He deprecates chatter, but that's all he does, plus tinker with tricks.

    2. Rossi,who does know, says it is about the same as a conductor. ie close to zero.

      In order to know if the device is producing power, one needs to know the input power, which is normally done by measuring input voltage and current. Those values provide a figure for resistance, but Rossi claimed the resistance was zero. He was applying high voltage to the device (in the demonstration, you could hear the zapping periodically.) If the resistance were zero, the input power would be huge for those intervals. It is brought out again because this whole thing is incredibly stupid. Keep saying stupid, people will keep pointing it out. That's normal human behavior.

      Itt was possible to think that Rossi might have something back before the lawsuit revealed way too much. Yes, there was always cause for suspicion, but the situation now is that Rossi clearly makes highly deceptive claims, nothing from him can be trusted, and he seems to be able to influence those who spend time with him. Beware. This has nothing to do with "how it works."

    1. Just what substance have you added in the last months?

      However much, orders of magnitude above Mr. Ashfield

  5. Apr 2017
    1. why does the steam pressure just happen coincidentally to be exactly atmospheric,

      It just happens to be atmospheric because the pressure gauge is pressure referred to atomospheric (i.e., "barg" instead of what the Penon report reads, "bar," and then the pressure gauge is not the one described in the test protocol -- absolute pressure was correct for the application, not gauge pressure -- but ... if the gauge fails, perhaps from being over the rated temperature, that's very likely to be the constant reading. And the removal of the gauge by Penon insured that it could not be checked. Penon, in fact, if in cahoots with Rossi, which appears possible, could then have switched gauges, creating a tested gauge that was working perfectly.... This is all Planet Rossi, absolutely refusing to allow genuine independent testing, and calling details like calibrations "stupid."

      The natural consequence. Nobody with major money is ever going to trust Rossi again, unless they are compleat idiots who don't look caefully at history, thus beinig condemened to repeat it. There was sufficient unclarity about the Italian Petrol Dragon affair to allow a reasonable possibility that Rossi was right, it was the Mafia. IH is not the Mafia, only Sifferkoll appears to beleive that.

    2. The constant temperature (if real) means either a very sophisticated control system or a system where water is at boiling point and hence temperature stabilised. Any excess power beyond that needed to raise the water temperature in liquid phase can cause a small amount of phase change, and will not affect this temperature.

      Right. Basically, if the Plant output is mixed steam and water, it may then have a constant temperature, the boiling point of water at the pressure involved. This woudl also occur if the output is unmixed phase, I.e, steam over flowing water. This was all clear in studies of the early Rossi calorimetry, in 2011, so that this was not carefully examined by Penon is telling. The steam over water may have a higher temperature than water flowing below, depending on conditions. Temperature would depend on exact temperature sensor placement.

      With the removal of evidence, spoliation was the immedate comment of a lawyer before the issue was raised by IH, it becomes impossible to determine the fact. What should have, in a proper test, been very simple, becomes very complicated.

      The idea of "conservative" analysis depends on an a priori assessment of what is important and what is not. It is never a great idea to conceal data. Failing to record detailed flow -- which might, then, have shown the expected variations -- failure to check the pressure, to make sure that the pressure sensor was working, where a constant pressure reading was suspicious -- all this is a mess, the kind of mess Rossi has long created.

      If there was dry steam, which is a Rossi claim, the steam was allegedly "superheated," then there would be temperature variation, absent what THH states, a "very sophisticated control system," and doing this in the face of changing reactor performance, variations in power dissipation on the "customer side," "very" is an understatement, and why would one care so much as to go to all that trouble. The customer did not require dry steam, some level of entrained water would not be a problem ... and the removed trap would have "cleaned" the steam. A bit of overtemperature in the steam if it was actually superheated, would not be a problem either.

      No, the combination of almost-fixed temperature, fixed pressure, and fixed low (at nominal values) is highly implausible.

    3. It could well be broken, or badly connected.

      Pressure meter failure from overtemperature operation seems quite possible. What did the recalibrations Penon ordered show? I have not reviewed the Penon deposition, and I don't think we have all of it. I'd assume Penon was asked.

    4. because that proof is missing Rossi should somehow be given the benefit of the doubt.

      Given the benefit for what purpose? This is not a criminal trial. However, many are interested only in the excess heat question. Because Rossi has shown that he lies, and because he has shown that he somehow induces scientists -- even established skeptics like Essen -- to make face-palm errors, nothing from Rossi or generated in a zone of high Rossi influence, can be trusted. It's "fake news." And the people who cling to fake news are people who already "know" what it appears to confirm.

      If the Rossi Effect is real, Rossi will, I'd think, show someone his secrets, fully. If he cannot find anyone to trust, then the outcome is Natural Consequences. Paranoia strikes deep.

      Rossi's health may be failing, there are signs in the depositions. I understand why people like Rossi. I feel some substantial sympathy for him, in spite of all that he has done (and in spite of his calling me a paid puppet of IH). If he has a real effect, and if he actually cares about those children with cancer, and about the rest of us and our future, I strongly hope he will make that disclosure, and take steps to insure that the transferred technology actually works. He always said, the proof is in the market, and he was right as to an ultimate proof. So if people want to support him, if they believe him or in him, then .... let them raise the funds and make it so. Nothing could stop them.

      But we now see that Rossi had full opportunity to do this with IH, to make $100 million and then half the world market, which would be many, many billions, and he blew it, badly. Conclusions are obvious, though many details may remain obscure.

    5. Others then argue on the point of can Jed prove the data is not real?

      The evidence is strong, the data shows many signs of not being collected data, but filtered, averaged, and what was represented as independent collected was not, the evidence suggests single-source. Mostly Rossi and/or Fabiani.

      It is not possible to "prove" that the data is not real, but this could be shown to a high probability. This could be difficult in court, but actually is not necessary for IH. The fact that it is all obscured by counter-defendant actions, spoliation of evidence, may be enough to show damages.

    6. Those wishing to test the above statements could look at the Statement of Material Fact and see the factual basis for this version of events

      While I have found what, at first glance, appear as weak statements in the IH Statement, they are not critical. These are, legally, for the most part, uncontested facts.

      I think Rossi et al will have the opportunity to contest them, but consider this: winning at this point could be a Pyrrhic victory. They then get to go to trial where fact will be determined by the jury. That is, they might raise some doubt now, but then face trial expenses, for what outcome? And if they call the stated "facts" into question using perjured testimony, they will then increase the substantial risk of a perjury prosecution, not to mention increased legal costs for IH, which might then be awardable.

      When I looked at the Complaint, before there was anything else, I noticed the lack of signatures on the Second Amendment. I thought this was mere sloppiness. Did Annesser not notice? I think I remember writing that, if he'd noticed, he could have suggested that Rossi supply his own signature for Leonardo, and ask Ampenergo to sign a copy, since I was assuming, at that point, that this was a mere oversight -- and signatures were not dated. However, I did not know, but Rossi knew, that Ampenergo had actually refused to sign, so the Second Amendment was obviously invalid. IH was obviously willing to negotiate over the delay, but Rossi was not about to deal with IH as equals, peers, actual partners. If Annesser didn't notice, failure of due diligance on his part, and I see a Motion for Sanctions in the future. His incompetence, on this theory, has cost the parties millions of dollars. And Ruth Silver might be on the hook as well, a truly unfortunate consequence, since I doubt that she meant any harm, she simply failed to adequately supervise her employee. Hey, Rossi was happy with him!

    7. Rossi behaved as though it was the GPT

      It is behavior like this that leads me to suspect psychopathology. It would be called "high functioning." Yes, even Mats Lewan knows this about Rossi.

    8. the customer was not real.

      Technically, the customer is real and Johnson is legally responsible. However, what is not real is the alleged and insisted-upon independence of the customer. Rossi and Johnson, with Bass assistance, created the illusion of independence.

      IH knew that Johnson was a lawyer and trusted that a lawyer would not mislead them like this. What was Johnson thinking? Perhaps he was thinking billions in profits, trusting Rossi himself. IH claims to have not noticed that Johnson was actually Rossi's lawyer until later.

      People have claimed that they did not do due diligance, but they were not making a major new investment, merely allowing Rossi to do what he wanted. Johonson's defense was largely based on "they didn't lose anything," which, unfortuantely for Johnson, isn't quite the case. But it was not large, compared to the overall investment in the Rossi License and in associated research and testing, and the cost of attempting to keep Rossi happy in spite of his incipient paranoia.

      And then there was Fabiani, who seems a pitiful character, reactive, frightened, with his friend Rossi throwing him under the bus, and not know what to do, he deleted all the data he had. I might expect to see that from some stupid teenager. Bottom line, he broke his contract and his own promises to IH (Murray had promised to pay him the balance on the contract if he turned over his data, promised to have the check ready when they would meet. Did Rossi encourage him to refuse? Did Rossi encourage Penon to refuse to answer the Murray questions in writing when they were formally presented in writing?

      I wondered what Johson thought when RvD was filed. Did he think this was a Great Idea? I suspect not. Bass was clueless, and Fabiani was freaked out. Penon disappeared, etc.

    9. using the existence of this secretive customer as an excuse to prevent IH checks, in a way that made validation a joke.

      Yes. It's obvious. While Rossi at times seems to maintain the idea of JMP as independent, this is simply a demonstration of how Rossi creates an idea, then believes it. He had an idea of JMP as independent. He had an idea of working with Johnson Matthey, so he presented that as fact. He has done this kind of thing over and over.

      What is really odd is that Mats Lewan seems blissfully unaware of all this. He is skeptical of the IH position, while trusting Rossi, and clearly is unaware fo the evidence or somehow interprets it away.

    10. if 1% likely to be real is worth running.

      Many looking at this case don't realize that LENR, if real, could be a trillion dollar technology. Looking at a $100 million investment, say, and at 1%, this would make the investment worth an expected return of 100:1.

      Their actual investment in the Rossi Effect was roughly $20 million (that was their initial stock offering). and to allow for costs of the lawsuit, $25 million. The risk of loss beyond that is very low, because the real operating company now, sole owner of IH, is IHHI, which isn't touchable, and the Rossi attempts to pierce the corporate veil, both with Cherokee and IH, were legally extremely shaky (as IH shows in the MSJ)

      Filing Rossi v. Darden was a colossal error on Rossi's part, and I'm looking at the role of Annesser in this. Annesser apparently encouraged Rossi and Johnson to refuse the December visit to Doral, requested by IH. Apparently he encouraged Rossi to refuse to assign a patent in January or February, 2016.

      A new lawyer, wet behind the ears, trying to play David against a Goliath. Most Davids end up mashed. If you are going to shoot the King, don't miss. I can imagine, now, a Rossi lawsuit against Silver Law Group for legal malpractice, after the smoke clears from Rossi v. Darden.

    11. They knew it could not be the GPT (no Ampergno signature on 2nd Amendment, wrong unit tested).

      Not only no signature, but deliberate refusal to sign, and Rossi knowledge of this. The Second Amendment was clearly invalid, a proposed document that failed, even though IH had signed off on it. The IH assurances that if the technology was shown to be real, they would pay anyway, were probably true, anyone who knows LENR would be likely to think so. Ampenergo obvious thought that. And with no 2nd Amendment, the IH initial argument that the time had passed for the obligatory payment was actually definitive. But the Judge allowed Discovery to possibly show that there was enough agreement for estoppel. My first reading of the Rossi MSJ appears to accept that Claim I was dead, but first readings can be deceptive. Where is the Wabbit? The smoking gun? Rossi was fishing for it in attempting to obtain attorney-client privileged material. We don't know what that was, specifically, but in several years of communications, some incautious statement, under a belief in privacy where one might say about any damn thing, might have arisen. It seems clear that not only did IH never assure Rossi that Doral was a GPT, IH and Rossi knew it was not, which is then why they allowed that abortion to continue.

    12. The IH MSJ paints a consistent picture specifically of why IH allowed the test to go ahead.

      Yes. I had speculated more or less along those lines. On Planet Rossi, expect to see the claim that IH is lying. They do not realize just how dangerous it is to lie under oath. I read Rossi's testimony and see few outright lies.

      The picture of how IH thought about Doral is clear from IH mails from the time, including confidential memoranda to IH investors. If those were fake, but attested by IH, expect to see prison time, and all it would take is one investor to blow the whistle. Such as, say, Ampenergo, which was a collection of Rossi friends, past supporters, with a financial interest in a successful GPT or equivalent. And they are investors in IH, having converted a small part of their payout to stock.

      to assess the evidence in the MSJ, note the legal principle that "testimony (i.e., sworn under penalty of perjury) is presumed true unless controverted. So if a witness said it under oath, it is presumed true, and only if there is contrary testimony that cannot be reconciled with it, will it be set aside -- i.e., it won't be used in an MSJ, though it might be used later in a jury trial, with the jury reconciling conflicts.

    13. as nicely arranged and indexed by Abd.

      Thanks, THH. That is not finished yet, I'll remove the Working Draft from the top when it is. This will then be a core document in an analysis of the IH MSJ, which will then be a part of the overall case analysis. Because the Rossi MSJ is such a mess, I put it off, even though my first desire was to carefully consider all the Rossi arguments first. I don't know what the judge will do, faced with an MSJ with all the exhibit references wrong.

      There won't be a decision on this for maybe two or three weeks after the back-and-forth on the MSJs is complete, so there is time.

      For me, part of the fun is seeking to anticipate the judge's rulings. Even when I'm wrong, the process then creates a background where I'm likely to understand the rulings.

      The only Wabbit Rossi came up with is the Heat Exchanger. Hidden, dismantled, and, so far, all evidence for it is Rossi Says. But he didn't Say when asked on JONP about the heat. So he lied on JONP. Oh, what a tangled web ....

    14. you'd think people would revert to their previous skeptical stance.

      Well, most of those who remain stuck on Planet Rossi were not skeptics to begin with. No examples come to mind. Rothwell was a vocal supporter of Rossi, though mostly privately. He was basing that on reports from people he trusted (some of whom are now known, all those early demonstrations, etc.) -- and this was maintained in spite of Rossi's refusal to allow him to visit because he wanted to bring his own instruments. He knew how suspicious that was, but chalked it up to Rossi's famous paranoia.

      However, Rothwell also was the first I saw to point out -- again privately -- the elephant in the Lugano living room, the apparent color temperature of the device, radically inconsistent with the calculated temperature. That the Lugano team did not even consider this showed something very off. Now we know that the "team" was mostly absent, that Rossi was there all the time, not just at the beginning and end, and that whatever Levi said dominated the report. And what Levi said was probably Rossi Says.

    15. If it could easily be distinguished from experimental error it would already have been settled scientifically as existing, or not existing, and IH would have no quest.

      Single tests, unconfirmed, are generally inadequate to establish the reality of LENR, and the existence of extensive unreported testing leads to a reasonable possibility of the file-drawer effect, also called confirmation bias. However, there is some LENR research that is not like this, that is not dependent upon a single result (i.e., excess heat) but that also shows correlated nuclear product. It is this work that I identified as most probative on the issue, and apparently a major source of funding agreed, and, while the existing evidence is such as to lead to LENR reality as supported by preponderance, the history of LENR and a strongly established rejection cascade required new work, which will be scientifically beneficial in any case, being measurement with increased precision.

      Rossi was a huge distraction from this, and LENR scientists were not prepared for a con artist -- or delusional maniac -- like Rossi. They tend to trust "scientific reports," and not to suspect deliberate deception. That is why the book is thrown at scientists who fake data. Parkhomov really screwed up with his improved plot.

    16. The nature of LENR is something that is elusive, and looks like experimental error.

      It is not always so, but this is so true of so much research that when it looks clearer, experienced LENR observers suspect a rat. Variability of the effect, unreliability, is, so far, a LENR characteristic. Pseudoskeptics point to this as some kind of evidence that the effects are not real. It is not, but it is certainly reason to be cautious.

    17. IH does not come out of the matter smelling of roses.

      Everyone's shit stinks. But I'm not seeing a lot of it. What I see in the Darden emails is cautious optimism, and that is exactly what LENR needs. Cautious optimism does not reject skepticism, rather it embraces it; it merely does not allow skepticism to ruin the creation of new possibilities. It is not denial, it does not assume that negative evidence is necessarily probative. It continues the conversation and exploration.

      I am encouraged. IH is massively connected, now, with the LENR research world. They have shown a willingness to work with scientists and inventors far beyond the call of duty. If they abandon the field, it will be a loss, but it looks like that is not their intention. Woodford seems satisfied.

      If I'm correct, there will soon be a major research accomplishment, on its way to being published, and I expect LENR funding to explode. IH will be well-placed to surf this.

      So to those who think the case makes IH "look bad," something is "smelly," I think they will be crying all the way to the bank. They may not make profits from LENR, directly, and certainly not in the short term, though we might notice that Ampenergo probably did just fine. They were lucky that IH came along. They returned the favor, though I think they were sincere, they were following self-interest in refusing to accept the Second Amendment, even though they would make more money if a GPT succeeded.

      We should realize that there may be much more evidence than what we have seen. If it was disclosed in Discovery, it may be used in the trial, if the matter comes to trial. The MSJ is just showing the evidence that IH believes reduces the case to matters of law. I'm not convinced on every point yet, but ... I have not finished documenting the IH MSJ and Statement.

      That IH would win the counterclaims with summary judgment is a long shot. The Rossi suit, though, is probably dead meat. No 2nd Amendement allowing a later test, no basis for suit. One can see in the depositions that Rossi's lawyers are angling for a "why didn't you tell Rossi" what Rossi already knew, and obviously.

    18. On the other hand they also know that Rossi's tests are rubbish and that Rossi lies. They must protect themselves from having to pay $89M for something that does not work but gives a spurious positive test result.

      Or an unclear test result. I find it hilarious that Annesser or Chaiken (I'm not sure which) asked -- was it Smith, the IH expert witness? -- if he was trained in nuclear engineering, as if that would be relevant. This was all following and supporting Planet Rossi FUD, because being a nuclear engineer would convey some relevant education (since nuclear power plants generate heat and must then harness the heat), but not the critical education (steam technology, a small part of nuclear engineering with some kinds of reactors).

    19. IH were incautious.

      Perhaps. They were willing to risk $20 million of their own money -- Darden and Mazzarino and a few friends -- to find out. They found out. As far as was possible, they "crushed the test," which was their goal. With positive results, validated independently, they could raise whatever funding was needed, I'd assume billions of dollars would just be the beginning. But with negative results, the whole Rossi Effect could be set aside, and all the mishegas wasted on it, and research could focus on independently-corroborated or promising findings. We will, in other discussions, look at that.

      They accomplished their mission, and the lawsuit is just cleanup, albeit a bit expensive. Environmental remediation is the Cherokee core business, and they are cleaning up the LENR environment.

    20. for Josh to see this as something that smells is IMHO wrong.

      It is normal on Planet Rossi. We have been seeing this since the filing of Rossi v. Darden. What was not realized was how much evidence IH had. Rossi was able to maintain the lawsuit against the IH Motion to Dismiss because he succeeded in confusing the issues enough that the Judge wanted to wait for Discovery to make a decision. Discovery is the most expensive aspect of litigation, I've seen that assessment. So there is a 7 hour deposition with three or more attorneys sitting there at $350 per hour, and there can be months of this.

    21. When defending a legal case you will argue anything you can that might stick.

      Within limits. One runs the risk of boring the judge and jury. However, an MSJ is not for a jury, and judges may well be interested in legal points. I was very skeptical of the "lack of signatures" argument, but I was assuming that Ampenergo had actually accepted the Second Amendment. Then I read the evidence. I had speculated that Ampenergo had probably signed a copy, but Rossi didn't have it. I also knew that, in theory, it was possible that Ampenergo had not signed, but, then, there was always estoppel.

      Now we know that Ampenergo not only did not sign, deliberately, but Rossi knew it. Did Annesser know this? Only if Rossi told him. And Rossi may not have told him. If Annesser did know, we might see a Motion for Sanctions later.

      I was puzzled at the lack of clear IH argument on the matter of no signatures on a setting of the GPT date. Now I know why. The whole Second Amendment was not valid, period, and clearly so. So the expiration of time was real. However, Rossi still had leverage, but instead of using it to negotiate with IH for an actual test, he used it to set up a phony, Rossi In Charge demonstration, lying to them about Johnson Matthey, etc.

    22. I've been off the internet for a few days walking up and down hills.

      What a waste of time, when one could be studying Rossi v. Darden! But better late than never.

      (Seriously, my sedentary habits turned a healthy 70 into a teetering 72. I'm now active reversing that. Enjoy those hills! Besides, you may think more clearly when you do sit down.)

  6. Mar 2017
    1. What you claim is false equivalence, without any argument or evidence to back it up.

      Yes. Reviewing discussions. I see two Planet Rossi views :

      • Rossi is a genius, savior of the world, and IH is a bunch of evil, blood-sucking venture capitalists -- said with lots of spit.
      • Rossi is a brilliant inventor but quirky, and lied, all for a good cause, of course, making the test happen. IH is lying too, so it's a draw on the moral front.

      Then there are the comments about Dewey Weaver. On ECW and sometimes on LF, the opinion is expressed that nothing Dewey says can be relied on, because it's been proven that he lied. Yet this "proof" is never actually cited, the most I have seen is one possible error, of no major consequence. And many times I have checked out what Dewey Says, and it checked out. Many aspects of the lawsuit were first revealed by Dewey. Some aspects have yet to be confirmed.

    2. Even rb0 is protected by the rule against doxxing. Best not to (openly) speculate.

      One of the problems with LF is that rules are not clear, and for free and complete discussion, identities can matter. It's actually a difficult issue.

      There used to be an accessible TOS. I couldn't find it, looking now. At one point, a mod asked the community for input on a civility policy, and then a policy was written that largely ignored the input. And that was then almost totally unenforced. Except when a mod wanted to ban someone, then the mod could look for an excuse, even though nearly everyone was violating the policy. Even though some moderators were violating the policy.

    3. basically unconditional diagnostic like "you are idiot" may be considered as insult by most people. If they are argumented, those diagnostics may be factual, or at least subject of a debate. Anyway best is to avoid unconditional statements on people, even on class of people (not easy).

      Sure, it's easy, Alain. Just shut yo mouth.

      In practice, "idiot" is never "factual." It is simply common speech, and may or may not be unacceptable uncivil in context. I was first banned on LF because a troll wrote about my mention of a conference many years ago that I organized, and asked, "Why do I believe that drugs were involved?" That was grossly uncivil. I responded with the reason: "Because you are an idiot." "Asshole" might have been more accurate, or "Troll" would actually get closer to neutral analysis. So I was banned. The troll was not. This was taking posts out of context, ignoring context, it is a classic moderator error.

      My later "permanent" ban had no excuse.

    4. all connections are explicitly admitted (Jed and Dewey and Abd).

      Jed has acknowledged visiting IH in North Carolina. Dewey, of course, is openly an investor and consultant for Industrial Heat. And I have actually talked with Dewey, once in person at ICCF-18, and on the phone. I have not been paid, and have not asked to be paid. My expenses have been covered, by others not connected with IH or APCO, though known in the field.

      Some of the possible Rossi socks seem different to me, though repeating the same Planet Rossi arguments, wildly disconnected from fact. And then there is the possibility that a sock is then turned over to someone else by giving them the password. That happens. Whether it has happened here, I don't know, but it could explain some of what has been seen. Rossi definitely uses socks on JONP to ask questions that he wants to answer, or to make statements he wants to attribute to someone else. Someone has mentioned that this has been admitted. I have not noticed this, a reference to the document would be useful. Rossi was asked, in an interrogatory with obligatory answer under penalty of perjury, to disclose all alternate internet accounts, but whether or not the answers have been made public, I don't know.

    5. Sifferkoll was an annoying poster.

      He was more than annoying. He was a caustic, racist conspiracy theorist, attempted doxxer without relevance, and drove away Thomas Clarke. Others have picked up and repeated his wild claims, as if fact.

    6. Sorry about the doxxing. Actually Eric Walker is also Rossi.

      In the training, to move beyond being an asshole one must admit being an asshole.

      The Playground was intended for "off-topic posts." That was quickly translated to "anything goes." Except spam, of course, everyone admits that spam should be nuked. Even spammers don't argue with that.

      So the Forum ends up hosting libel. Way to go, guys. As to doxxing, that originally referred to providing real-life information for accounts intended to be anonymous, and anonymous accounts were not called "socks" unless there was more than one participating in some discussion (i.e, pretending independent support that was only "puppet theater.") . Detecting and banning true socks involved a level of invasion of privacy, but this was considered necessary. That is, by pretending to be more than one person, one abandoned the right of privacy. Mary Yugo did this long ago, and Rossi has done it frequently. Real names were generally still protected (on WMF wikis), unless one of the multiple accounts was real-name.

      I allow doxxing on coldfusioncommunity, for now, until there is a community process to review administrative actions and decisions. The obvious may be mentioned. However, user IP information, visible to me as admin, will not be revealed except in one case: clearly abusive posting (such as impersonation, which has happened), not mere expression of unpopular opinion, will not be protected, because sharing that information will assist other admins on other sites to identify trolls. which may shift admin response. As well, a trolling target deserves to know more about who is attacking. Trolls will not be automatically banned, but encouraged to participate in genuine conversation; continued trolling behavior will be sanctioned, after clear and violated warning.

      Because nobody is being actually banned, it is not necessary to dig deeper than IP into user agent string, which is visible to those with root server access, and which tends to identify the specific computer being used.

      People should be aware, though, that anyone can get a subpoena for server records, with that identifying information. To avoid this could require using an open proxy, which then, on some sites, will be banned.Most abusive socks don't bother; however, the situation for socks gets tougher when real-life identities are revealed, i.e., doxxing may be needed to protect the community.

      Behind the scenes, I was informed that the reason my ban became permanent was that I revealed the identify of a user. However, that identity was blatantly revealed by LF history, was obvious, and was obvious in that way because of the user's behavior, the hiding of identity was thoroughly clumsy, and remains so. The user himself doesn't seem to be bothered, and has never requested that I remove such information (which would be considered, and which request should be private, for obvious reasons.) Remember, I was a WMF administrator, very active, both as an admin and in reviewing admin behavior. I dealt with socks and doxxing, extensively.

    7. Are you calling me an idiot,

      He didn't, he posited a conditional claim. However, I'm sure it could be arranged.

    8. Pro-Rossis are Rossi's sockpuppets

      There are some Rossi socks, it's quite apparent, and someone who points it out is not ipso facto anti-Rossi. Some who strongly dislike Rossi, though, may suspect a Rossi sock that isn't.This is not common or widespread.

      Those who are regularly called anti-Rossi on this forum are not working for IH, beyond Dewey Weaver, who is openly an investor in and contractor for IH. Even less for APCO. While, in theory, anything is possible, as to a practical reality, it is quite implausible that IH and ACP and "Big Energy" would be spending money on this quite minor site. If were Wikipedia,maybe this could be looked at. Large corporations have been known to spend money for influence there..

      This kind of "both sides are doing it" is hysterical nonsense. They are not equal, just as Jed Rothwell, when opinionated, is not equal to some random user. Real people with real reputations and long-term involvment are not equal to anonymous trolls or generators of drive-by snark.

    1. Doc. 228 and its exhibits now on the docket.

      You can follow Eric's link, which goes to a page very difficult to read, but you can also look at the docket page on coldfusioncommunity.net, -- or I could give the URL for the file itself, but it's very easy on that docket page to see what everything is and then load whatever page one wants.

    2. Knowing the full circumstances the events and behavior are logical.

      but who knows the full ciircumstances? Sifferkoll wasn't there. On whom is he relying? That email was blatant, and appears to be part of an attempt to defraud IH by pretending that the test was a deliberate failure, don't worry about it was Rossi's message, also. But he was admitting a fraud against Hydro Fusion, creating a fake failure so that they would give up on their agreement with him, because it seems he imagined that IH wouldn't want him dealing with Hydro Fusion. But they actually didn't care, it was not their territory, their license was not exclusive and Hydro Fusion was an existing licensee. There was no real issue. Most likely: the test actually failed and Rossi was just trying to explain that away.

      So how would this be resolved. Of course there is more than what the email said. But what? I've never seen anything from Sifferkoll on this point, and he is here, quite clearly, avoiding it. If he has confidential information, that he cannot reveal, he could state that. But remember, he was attacking Dewey Weaver.

      Sifferkoll may be telling the truth. "From his perspective," it does not reflect on Rossi credibility. Then again, his perspective is coming from a narrow, dark place.

    3. how does this email reflect on Rossi's credibility?

      sigmoidal doesn't fall over and play dead.

    4. Old news. This has been covered long ago and sorted out in person. Don't worry about it.

      Sorted out in person by whom? That Rossi email was written to IH, and I'm quite sure that IH noticed the implications. In the mail, Rossi acknowledges faking a (negative) test. But the story as told by Mats Lewan was very different. Rossi argued with the Hydro Fusion experts. Something was fake somewhere, but where?

      Sifferkoll's answer is like the Wizard of Oz saying "don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain."

    5. Magnus was not to be one of those exceptions and I feel badly for him.

      I think Dewey is sincere here. Magnus Holm is the major shareholder in Hdyro Fusion, Ltd. Company filings. The last news on the Hydro Fusion web site is more than a year old, glowing, happy over the Woodford investment, and the Huffington post: "They also reported that Rossi’s customer has “significantly lower utility bills” since using the industrial E-Cat. What we now know was that the "customer" was Rossi, not even bothering to wear a different hat. Axel Magnus Holm appears to have invested about GBP 750,000 in Hydro Fusion, which has assets far less than that, including a large value for "intangible assets." Like possibly a license. Rossi v. Darden was not good news for Hydro Fusion, far from it. Even if the technology had been real. It appears that Dewey knows something about what is happening with Holm. Fact? Rumor? It's not important enough to ask Dewey.

    6. Please be more specific.

      Loss of scientifc reputation. There is already a sign of a problem in the Rossi - Gullerstrom paper, it does not give his institutional affiliation. He may have asked for permission and it was refused. The problem is not actually with "Uppsala" as such, but with the Swedish scientists -- with Levi and Foschi -- who allowed their reputations to be abused by Rossi. The Lugano test paper was misleading, in addition to being very incorrect as to how temperature was measured, and lacking calibration that would have shown the problem.

    7. Uppsala, Gullström are some hints on what is going on, but you already know that ...

      Sifferkoll avoids the question about Hydro Fusion. Uppsala and Gullstrom, a PhD candidate there, are in trouble, long-term. At this point there is no clue that Sifferkoll has been reading the court documents, though by reading them with blinkers on, one might be able to cling to some shred of hope.

    8. this is evidence of you making things up as you go

      This is classic Sifferkoll. He assumes that whatever Dewey says is fantasty. Maybe. However, not too likely. It might be exaggerated, it might be overextended, but there is almost certainly something real that he was talking about. Sifferkoll is myopic.

    9. I'll help out. Unfortunately, the CEO had to sell his car and has had some problems on the home front as a result of the financial difficulties associated with signing up with Rossi. The trail of destruction continues.

      Dewey does give some hints. Ascribing causation is dicey here, unless he's seen court documents.

    1. Planet Rossi is a permanent monicker well beyond this forum despite Alan's best wishes and desires. I believe this latest epitode (combo episode and epitath) of his also highlights his lack of judgement, temperament and inability to function as a capable moderator for L.F.

      It will be no surprise that Alan bans Dewey. (I have not actually rechecked the ban notice that I think was posted, and if Eric did it, that would be a very different matter. That is how to properly handle an insult of a moderator. Let another moderator handle it. But these people have no concept of recusal.

    2. Dewey - Stoppit! Alan.

      For Alan Smith, the obvious obvious ("Planet Rossi") is prohibited. Yet various insults against Dewey Weavere, Jed Rothwell, and others, are routinely tolerated. "Planet Rossi" simply means those who follow Rossi, who think like him or in support of him. It is not insulting in itself. But Smith is not sophisticated. He doesn't like it and some users don't like it (such as Peter Gluck) so ... he will ban Dewey.

    3. go back in your "disturbed place" is a ansty insult.

      Or the truth. Peter has been, for almost a year, condemning those who simply told the truth. He did this with Gamberale, because Gamberale exposed the error -- or fraud -- in Defkalion work, and Peter was a strong supporter of Defkalion. Peter has been calling honest reporting of experience and opinion "nasty."

      That's a "disturbed place."

    4. the Judge's treatment of the filing.

      The judge treated it as a discovery dispute. Maybe. Maybe she was having a bad day.

    5. if there has be destruction of emails, removal of pipes, (I am assuming even the pressure sensor outside the container, etc.) , doesn't that mean that according to the legal concept of 'adverse interpretation' Rossi will not be able to use any of the claimed ERV report regardless of its technical competence (or lack thereof).

      It's possible. Back when Rossi v. Darden was young, an attorney sent me an email with one word: "spoliation." This was over Penon removing the instrumentation. The later removals by Rossi were as bad or worse. Fabiani may have completely screwed himself by deleting those files.

      It's the cover-up, stupid.

    6. I am literally shivering Dewey.

      What he needs to comfort him while he's banned: A troll comforter.

    7. There are plenty of answers to your questions in the docket

      Peter doesn't read the documents in the docket. It's far too much for him; he does not understand most of it.

    8. you never get tired of telling you are winning the case flawlessly
      1. Dewey is not fighting the case. He is mostly an observer, but was deposed.
      2. Hence "he" is not winning, but it's obvious that IH is, though "perfectly" would be a strange claim. Win some, lose some. Overall, IH appears to me likely to win completely as to the Rossi claims, and has a running chance of winning some or even all of the counterclaims. The first may happen with Summary Judgment, but I'm still studying the document. The second is less likely to win that way, may require a trial.
    9. The images show no discernible heat differences between the neighboring facilities but we have not been able to get the necessary data certifications that would allow this to be admitted into court evidence.

      This could be introduced as a story of what IH did once fraud was suspected. A witness for IH would testify that he or she reviewed IR images, and found nothing standing out. It's too late to assert an IR thermography expert, probably, but IR evidence has been used, if I'm correct, for cultivation of marijuana violations. This could not be introduced at all if it was not disclosed in discovery. However, it would be introduced as sworn testimony, possibly supported with exhibits.

      Tactical considerations....

    10. why not ban this ?

      Alan did ban Dewey. But Eric (probably) banned Wyttenbach.

    11. They last straw seems to be, that AR didn't pay all taxes. But the court already more or elss denied relevance for the jurisdiction.

      sic. Rossi tried to get the tax issue struck or dismissed. He failed. It's still there. We will see what happens.

    12. No they cannot. That is an Admin function. BTW. I know you would love to be banned, but that is probably not a good idea right now. But call me a troll again and you will be.

      On LF, apparently, "Moderator" doesn't see IP addresses. "Administrator" does. However, then, we have a moderator saying that if he is called a troll, the user will be banned, and we know that he means that he will do the banning. On Wikipedia, if an administrator (who cannot see IP information for registered accounts) would likely lose his admin privileges if he made that threat. A Wikipedia administrator threatened me with enforcement if I violated the ban that he had declared. I was fascinated, so I violated it (with a truly harmless edit in every other way). He blocked me.

      He lost his tools over this. He had been very popular, but supporters scattered when he did that.

      That, in itself, is not how I ended up banned on Wikipedia. Rather, that admin had friends, and they went for revenge, long-term, and Wikipedia is largely defenseless against significant factions ... and this faction had maybe two dozen active members, including several administrators.

    1. What are your thoughts now,

      Again, inviting Sifferkoll to continue with what might well be off-topic. I sympathize with Eric, but ... what does it take to guide a community? The whip? How about leadership that inspires them to do what will benefit all?

      As long as the goal is "getting them" to "behave," it will fail.

    2. But, you certainly got my attention Deawey, so please go ahead ...

      Violating the request, thus inviting Weaver to continue.

      Ah, but all's well that ends well.

    3. In reality, I do not think this will happen.

      It is more or less the communist ideal, which broke down when they disrespected private property, which then violates basic instincts. Natural consequences: if you don't do something useful for others, society will not do something useful for you. However, this idea that we "have to work" is common and nonsense. We work if we choose to, unless someone is holding a gun to our head. And we have this amazing ability to enjoy work, so it's play. We choose to enjoy it.

    4. No doubt... "times are a changing!"

      They are, but isn't this off topic?

    5. If people wish to discuss this further, please take the discussion to the playground.

      Moderators need take special care to avoid an appearance of bias. On Wikiversity, as an administrator, I wrote rules for handling emergencies, where the only moderator available and following a situation has a potential conflict of interest. That proposal, while it would have had overall support if taken fully to the community, was crushed by ... a high-level administrator who often acted in conflict of personal interest. Later events showed that the administrative corps did not want any restrictions on its own actions.Classic. In other fora, in fact, this was called the Lomax effect, because I'd documented and explained it. It is a variation on the Iron Law of Oligarchy. The Iron Law is so-called because it will always happen, but there are ways to harness it.

    6. What I don't like is for the thread to be so jammed up with insults that I cannot even consider the carefully worded, polite posts.

      At one point on LENR Forum, moderators would move irrelevant posts to another thread, or even delete them. The latter is not a great idea, unless the text is copied and made available to the author. But what happened is that moderators stopped doing this. Too much work, too many trolls and even regular participants who go way off-topic. There has been no coherent attention to this.

      Basic moderation rule: do not clutter up discussions with moderator chat. Set aside another place for complaints and suggestions. Set up appeal procedures. Using regular forum discussions to warn users is poor practice. Rather, private message first. Then, unless the user requests privacy, private notice plus a public notice, in a place for that. Log bans, giving cause and appeal procedure. Set up an administrative mailing list to handle such issues. Ideally, that list is publically visible, if not publically writeable. (Public posts woujld be moderated, with clear rujles).

    7. Maybe this forum is not a good place for people who cannot formulate a real argument. That we have allowed shitposting is just a measure of our inability to extract better behavior out of the median forum member.

      How about the median moderator? If anyone wants to discuss how LF is being run, it can be done on coldfusioncommunity.net, and I have just opened up this annotation possibility. Anyone can do this, and it does not disrupt the flow of ordinary conversation on LF. On Wikiversity, I created refuges for the banned. A few used them, and that is still going on. I stopped working on that when I realized that the wiki structure remained unreliable, and what seemed safe was not necessarily so.

      Structure and frfeedom are not in intrinsic conflict.We can have it all.

    8. while you might love to see the server logs it ain't gonna happen unless you chainsaw your way in.

      Problem is, he could, if relevance to Rossi v. Darden could be shown. Dewey could also make it relevant to a lawsuit by filing one, he's been libeled enough, and that would lead to a classic claim. "Planet Rossi" is a way of describing a quite obvious faction. It is not an insult in itself, unless being associated wtih Rossi is an insult, and those who are called "Planet Rossi" generally don't think so. Smith's suggestion is an attempt at thought control.

    9. Is Dewey also banned?

      Dewey was banned, but I'm not sure exactly when. LF doesn't provide logs and a record is not compiled.

    10. Then maybe this specific forum is not a good place for u ?

      Trolling. And he was banned.

    1. Everybody cold be more satisfied if, after 10 days of zero excess heat IH had smartly and honestly told arrivederci to their former ally.

      We now have far more information, from the depositions, as to the sequence of events in the IH/Rossi relationship. At this point it appears that Rossi knew, in advance, that the GPT could not be performed without explicit approval, and Ampenergo was refusing to sign. So Rossi created a faux customer and a faux GPT, lying about it all then and continuing to mislead and misrepresent in his Complaint. Why didn't they tell the poor Andrea that it wasn't a GPT? Because they did tell him, just not in writing and not in the first parts of this faux test. Now Rossi is suddenly talking about slaving away in extremely hot, uncomfortable conditions, something that managed to escape notice before. Peter's confidence in Rossi has been betrayed, but Peter is blaming everyone else.

    2. What is the point of being an IH-troll if there is nothing to troll about?

      A huge pile of documents revealing actual fact or admissible testimony was dropped on the Court last week. There is a lot to read. I'm studying the documents, creating study tools. That takes time, but in the process, I keep finding more and more amazing facts. It's tempting to push each one. Mostly, I'm not. As people discover just how deeply and clearly Rossi lied, they write about it. Some might froth a little at the mouth....But Rossi created all this with his massive and extensive deceptions.

    3. Back in 1990, after the F and P announcement, it seemed clear to me that a lot of the criticism they received came from other scientist that were envious of their discovery. Could some of this be going on here, Jed?

      Rionrlty is not a Rossi sock, but has swallowed the Rossi Line, witih hook and sinker. He might as well be a troll, and has been banned. Rothwell is an expert on the Pons and Fleischmann history. He knows and I know what happened then, and it doesn't resemble what is going on with Rossi at all.

    4. From the documents is evident that IH had obtained high COP in her own experiments, and that Darden had rose about 250M$ from investors. They now don't want to pay simply creating an artifact opinion via this forum, There was even a bribery attempt by them.

      This is what we'd expect from Rossi, these are claims he makes in court, presented here as fact. The Magistrate did not buy the "bribery" idea. The evidence doesn't support it. Uzi Shaya, if the sworn declaration is the truth, was a private investigator looking for information, not exactly an agent of Darden, but hired by Zalli.

      Opinion on LENR Forum is going to have no effect on the lawsuit, and Rossi Says is not accepted there. Rossi has claimed that Darden raised large sums, but has been unable to document it, beyond the $20 million originally invested by Darden and friends, and then the $50 million invested by Woodofrd in a place where Rossi can't touch it, which must burn him no end.

      The lawsuit is exposing many, many lies told by Rossi over the years. It's not in question any more. Rossi lied, the most obvious one was the fake customer, supposedly independent, which he actually totally controlled.

    5. he he he ..... lost your job ? Ask IH they always look for new trolls .

      Funny, ele has not been banned. Maybe they don't want to ban an actual Rossi sock.

    6. My opinion stands: Darden et al. raised $250 million dollars on fraudulent grounds.

      Darden raised $20 million from a close group of friends. That is all that was involved with Rossi, there is no sign that any significant money from Woodford went to Rossi activities. joshg is inventing $250 million, that is even more than Rossi -- without evidence -- claims. So the reality of the Rossi investment (about $20 million) is increased by joshg to more than ten times that. APCO is not involved in LENR Forum discussions, there is zero evidence of that.

    7. fact that many of the other investments/investors and advisers incl their (Apco)bots (Dewey, Jed, etc.) are represented here and talking their book.

      AnotherTroll was banned. Obvious why. Rossi is speaking out, all right. As a result we can see exactly what he did, what was hidden has been revealed.

    8. I remember reading that the investment was Darden's own money but I have never seen any evidence for that. Cherokee, parent of IH, is an investment fund. And certainly, Woo-Woodford used investor money to support IH and their share-holders complained aplenty. The complaints in their forums went mostly unanswered and when I asked how they vetted the claims, they refused to say. Idiots!

      This is standard Mary Yugo. "She" pays no attention to the voluminous evidence being developed, but has strong opinions about it. Woodford money did not go to or support Rossi.

      If IH had done what Mary would recommend, they would have accomplished nothing. Rossi would still be confusing many. As a result of IH's persistence, Planet Rossi has shrunk and almost disappeared. It's not over yet, as this is written, but the end is reasonably obvious.

    1. careless people with other people's money decide to invest in something they do not understand

      IH (and Woodford) did extensive research before investing. Mary Yugo is a retured has-been, who has no understanding of what Industrial Heat actually did. Darden and Mazzarino, and a few others, first of all, invested their own money, not Fund money. Major Fund money only came in with Woodford, and that money did not go to Rossi, nor, in fact, to Industrial Heat, but to IH Holdings International, which Woodford has good access to, it being formed locally for them in the U.K.

      They knew about Rossi's past, that is obvious from the Agreement. Mary Yugo has not bothered to become actually informed, but keeps repeating the same tired narrative

      This is concern trolling. The poor investors lost money. But they actually gained something, and Mary Yugo has long been unable to understand what is outside the box "she" lives in. Financially, they are doing fine. The Magistrate just made a joke about it.

    2. If you think I work for IH, sorry. I post under my real first name, I have done so here, ECW, the old EcatNew.com and even on rare occasion, Mr. Gluck's blog. I have done so for 6 years, since 2011.

      As I recall, I have confirmed Bob's claim here. Now, will Wyttenbach apologize or provide a source for the claim? Shall I hold my breath in anticipation?

    3. The days were to start from the time the GPT was agreed to and signed by both parties. That did not happen so there was never any 50 days into the test.

      It appears that Ampenergo deliberately did not sign the Second Amendment allowing the GPT to be postponed, and Rossi knew this. Rossi, then, knew that the GPT was impossible unless IH created a side-agreement (they certainly could have done that). But Rossi wanted to force the issue, to create another of his "masterpieces."

    4. Dewey, BTW, my check is late.

      Yeah, mine too. Wait! I forgot to send the invoice. Never mind.

    5. if it had produced 10% excess with high confidence, they would have gladly paid.

      Well, with high confidence, meaning high reliability and control, maybe. There are details to consider. $89 million is a lot for something not ready for commercialization, but under some conditions, yes, definitely. COP 1.1 should be possible to convert to self-sustain, i.e., infinite COP, with appropriate engineering. Cost would be a factor, though.

    6. So you seem upset IH is gullible, and incompetent, but that is why Rossi chose them.

      And when they hired a sophisticated engineer, being not quite so gullible and incompetent and maybe even the reverse, Rossi decided the engineer was a spy, and actually says that in his formal Answer to the countercomplaint. No Snakes or Spies allowed where Rossi is At Work.

      After all, the spy might tell IH what is actually happening.

    1. monty banned for two weeks.

      He was practically begging for it. Anonymous trolls have nothing to lose.

      The biggest problem with bans as they exist on LF is that the user cannot edit or remove their own content. All log-in is disabled. The user cannot read their private Messages. hence there should be a preliminary step: "We are restricting your use of the Forum for for a period. However, as a courtesy, we are leaving your account unbanned. Do not use this account for anything other than to access content and to correct your own harmless errors or to delete your content. If this is violated, your account will be banned."

      While a user might violate that -- true trolls are very likely to viiolate it -- then they are responsible for having been banned, having violated a clear warning. If they want to complain, they have places they can do it, many of them.

    2. I do not think this forum is too rigid at all!

      Rigid compared to what? I've been a moderator at newvortex for many years and nobody has been banned (In spite of Mary Yugo's claims). Nobody has been banned from coldfusioncommunity.net.

      To be sure, it could become necessary, but for communities that depend on discussion, bans should reflect community consent. It's true that an owner has rights, but if the intention of the owner is to serve the community, the owner will consult the community and will be responsive.

      I am not banned on E-Cat World, but am on moderation, even though rejections have been very, very rare. Moderation is a relatively harmless device. If I were to flood ECW with posts the owner dislikes, I'd expect to be banned, but Bob's story reflects an owner who may have been having a bad day...

    3. I guess it's time that the moderator's uncover their relationship's.

      LENR forum process is far from transparent. The process for choosing moderators and administrators is hidden. There are factions in the staff. Finding two moderators to agree on a ban would probably not be difficult. But does the staff represent the community of readers (no), or the community of those who contribute content (no). To whom are moderators and administrators responsible?

      Legally, the owner, but what is the owner's position on all this? He isn't saying. He is not a major contributor, nor does he openly resolve disputes.

    1. There will be no bullying here if I can help it.

      Alan is the Bully-in-Chief. I've seen nobody else actually bully anyone. Eric is warning, part of his job as moderator.

    2. you seem awfully thin-skinned today. Maybe its a good idea to take a break? Please consider that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

      This is called "concern trolling." It's highly provocative. This is indeed, the "Playground." It's a bad idea, when it's moderated by the same people, and hosted by the same owner, found on the same site, with the same Unread Posts display and the same user set.

    3. People who do nothing more than shitposting add no value and will not last long here.

      Some have lasted a long time. More difficult are those who both contribute value and troll for outraged response. One of them is a moderator. Not once, ever, have other moderators restrained him. Behind the scenes, staff is badly divided, apparently. And nobody talks about it ... except I have been, on coldfusioncommunity.net and now with hypothes.is annotation, and others may join. These annotations are only seen by those who choose to see them.

    4. But just a note: you are very much on thin ice.

      Siffferkoll was a highly offensive troll, for a long time, and was not sanctioned. He created many of the false memes that keep circulating on Planet Rossi, with "research" that sees a stick and calls it a snake.

    5. As I said, it's a judgment call. If you do not contribute clear value in the form of good arguments (pro or con), and you have a demonstrated history of attacking forum members, you are on thin ic

      Eric is trying to bring some order. It's difficult in the absence of clear rules. Eric is pointing out an obvious consideration: someone who violates civility and who does not "forward the conversation," is useless to the forum community. Someone who violates civility and is activly contributing might get a pass. My opinion is that the "pass" would not mean that incivility is tolerated, but that the person is worth warning, with clear consequences that can be anticipated and with this being made reliable. When it is erratic, unreliable, and unevenly enforced, we have a certified mess.

    6. The court decides what is posted and not posted, not Rossi or IH.

      Bob is incorrect. The parties may present parts of documents, that they consider relevant. The depositions, in particular, are enormous; a few of them are presented intact, the whole deposition, but mostly excerpts are presented. This can be cherry-picking, but in the process that ensues, the other side can supply the context if it matters. Redactions are a different matter. The ones I see are blacked out. That is not necessarily a court seal. If a document is sealed, it will not be readable for us, but only to those with court authorization. Bottom line, the court is only making decisions on the visibility of documents when requested. The normal process is that the parties decide what to include as exhibits.

    1. This is obvious.

      It is obvious that anotherTroll is a sock puppet of another troll.

    2. A simple explanation for non-payment could be that Darden did not have the money at hand by the end of the test

      There is apparently sworn testimony that Woodford committed an additional $150 million if needed. That "simple explanation" is simple-minded (as if investors like Darden have bundles of cash sitting around -- or are paralyzed. No, they raise money when it is needed. If the problem were cash on hand, IH could surely have negotiated for partial payment, and, in fact, there was a provision for that in the agreement, as I recall

      That the Doral test was almost certainly not the GPT was obvious from the Complaint. Crucial evidence was missing, and has not appeared, only vague references to a test, not the explicit signed agreement required by the Second Amendment, and the Second Amendment was not signed by all parties, particularly not by Ampenergo, and evidence has appeared that this was deliberate. Ampenergo, Rossi's friends, did not want that Amendment, which is why Rossi could not have remedied the defect post-facto, but filed it as defective. The problem was obvious from the filing, I saw it and wrote about it. However, maybe IH had actually consented somewhere, which is why this was not resolved with the IH Motion to Dismiss. Now we know. There was no consent to a GPT, this is all Rossi Says.

    3. This notion that opinions are somehow magically equal or that any notion you dream up is somehow valid because it is your opinion is new-age nonsense

      Hey, I'm the New Age, my first teacher actually wrote a book, "This is the New Age, In Person," and Jed Rothwell is sometimes a beknighted curmudgeon. However, he is also an expert on all things LENR, world-class, even though he is "only" a writer and LENR librarian. Librarians learn a lot.

      The real New Age isn't each and every stupid idea. It's humanity waking up.

    1. Now where you clearly state that you think/work for IH,

      Wyttenbach is consistently off-point. If it is the case that Bob actually is associated with IH, it would increase interest in his comments. From what I know about Bob, though, Wytttenbach is spreading FUD.

      Classic for trolls: "Your comment is not worth replying to," thus demonstrating utter hypocrisy, since the troll has commented.

      (Wyttenbach is actually a math PhD, which goes to show just how important degrees are.)

    2. Dewey sure as heck insinuated it over and over, and may have even made the claim. And he is paid directly by IH.

      Rionrlty may be sincere, but he is a consistent Planet Rossi troll. No evidence provided. Dewey Weaver is a consultant for IH, but also an investor, and we don't know if he is paid more than expenses, and, further, he is not paid to comment on blogs, there is no evidence for that, it is pure "insinuation." The idea that some are being paid to attack Rossi is a standard Planet Rossi trope, very commonlly asserted. It's claimed that I've been paid, and I certainly know that I have not. It's claimed that Jed Rothwell is paid, and he is a long-time philanthropist for LENR and his comments, while opinionated, are his opinions, he is nobody's puppet. Etc.

      Classic here: the actual alleged comments are not linked. Rather an obviously hostile summary is presented. That is what trolls do.

      There has been much speculation about the pipe size, for multiple reasons. Most of it has been prefaced wtih "if."

    3. the pipe was DN40 in depositions under oath

      What pipe? It matters!

      The Murray deposition is a very detailed document, though much of it is wrangling by the Rossi attorney, trying to catch Murrray in some error. A common tactic: ask Murray if it is possible that he could be wrong about this or that. Murray doesn't take the bait. Of course it is possible. Anyone can make a mistake, and someone who believes they could not possibly be mistaken is not a genuine expert. Murray just says, "Yes." But sticks to his testimony.

      The deposition is here. - all 423 pages. It's PDF text, so it is searchable. There are five hits for "DN40."

      1. Steam side valve 2,3. Steam side DN40 pipes feeding a larger pipe 4.5. ditto, steam side, inside reactor.

      For DN80, there are two hits. 1 Flanges on flow meter.

      1. The main steam pipe "suspected" to be DN80,

      The DN40 reference mentioned by Wyttenbach probably comes from the infamous Exhibit 5, where it appears that Murray was repeating what Penon had told him, or simply made a mistake. However, the DN80 issue with the flow meter flange creates increased possibility for the meter to not be full of water. Reading the Murray deposition I find comments with enormous implications for the lawsuit. No wonder Rossi is trying to get it tossed out! However, Murray may have been entered as an "expert" -- and comes across as one -- but he was also the IH engineer that Rossi refused entrance to, the first sign of a major rift in the IH/Rossi relationship, in July, 2015. If the court decides not to allow Murray as "expert," his testimony would still be admissible as the engineer for IH. And IH would likely obtain another expert, or simply rely on Smith. I find Murray very, very believable. His caution and readiness to admit possible error increase his apparent probity.

    4. I've read the document and do not find any evidence that Darden 'deliberately mislead' Rossi. Please show how you know Darden's motivation.

      Belief in Planet Rossi is associated with a strong ability to read minds. That is how they know that Rossi is real. They have mental capacities far exceeding the norm.

    5. Rossi's did not follow the judge's order on page limits even after they asked for added length and it was denied.

      It's a bit more complex than that. On the face, yes, Rossi viiolated the limit. IH did not. But IH filed separate documents, The MSJ, at 30 pages meeting the limt, and then the Support, 15 pages of supporting paragraphs.also at the limit. Rossi's MSJ includes pages of alleged facts with numbered paragraphs. So this is actually a combined document, and the sections are within the limits. It's a formal error, not a substantial one, but the judge may decide that she doesn't like the form. This is not the worst problem with the Rossi MSJ. The misumbering of Exhibits is glaring. And the constant relilance on the exclusion of IPH claims based on the unconfirmed complaint about a fatal 30(b)(6) defect, that will presumably will have been remedied shortly, makes mincemeat of the MSJ.

    6. (from 215-03, PDF page 228)
    7. if Rossi's one is upheld I'd have to eat all my words.

      Ah, THH, your words can be delicious.

      Unfortunately, Rossi's MSJ, as it stands, doesn't have a snowball's chance in a megawatt-heated warehouse, Rossi's private hell. I'm prepping a study of the IH MSJ, and it's a lot stronger. However, there are parts I dislike, and I won't refrain from pointing those out.

    8. Abd argues that they had to resolve the matter of Rossi's claims one way or the other, since they were distracting LENR investment, and this bad and expensive contract, giving too much power to an ERV in a $89M up-front payment test, was the only way to do it. Maybe, or maybe they gambled on the possibility that Rossi really had it. Many people have been convinced by him...

      We have seen enough to know that IH realized and considered both outcomes as possible. At their level of operating, investors do not "gamble." Rather, they estimate probabilities, trusting their ability to do that. If something is possible but not probable, most of the time it will fail. They know that, but they trust their own intuition. That's their bread and butter, their intuition.

      That intuition was. I'm sure Dewey would agree, that this wouldl generate value, one way or another. Yes, at times they had high hopes, because at times there was a successful creating of appearance, but they did not fall down and give Rossi everything, they kept trying and testing and checking results.

    9. look at the exhibits that Rossi's lawyers cite in their motion for summary judgement

      ROTFL. I stopped studying that Motion because it is so badly defective that it will likely be moot quickly, replaced with a new version based on a number of causes -- if the Judge lets them. The evidence is all based on a translation of "test" to "guaranteed performance test." What joshg is ignoring is the evidence that Rossi knew that Ampernergo was refusing to sign the Second Amendment deliberately. IH was treating it as a kind of test, but would never have agreed to it as a GPT, to unconditionally trigger an $89 million payment, not under the Doral conditions, and that's obvious. This is the simple fact: without successful replication of the technology, able to pass truly independent testing, IH would not be able to raise the $89 million. With it, easy-peasy. Rossi created his own failure by refusing to simply deal in good faith with IH, and this is totally obvious in the documents, overall.

      This has nothing to do with "angels."

    10. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBxSTlJLk6g

      The video shows how to avoid damage to a pressure gauge from exposure to steam, which could melt the pressure sensor. If that happened to the Rossi gauge, that would explain 0.0 bar for every reading. That the pressure gauge may have been over rated temperature would, then, be a failure mode in the Penon protocol.

    11. Woodward had and "initial investment" that relied on Rossi but the $50 M was later and based on additional items.

      While this is certainly possible, I haven't seen evidence for it. I hope oldguy will find where he came to this understanding. The actual $50 million was given to IHHI in May, 2015, whereas Woodford reps had visted Doral in February. They might have previously invested in IH itself, but I kind of doubt it.

    1. For them the value of the gold was worth trying that.

      Yes. That's my conclusion. To most of us, $11.5 million is a boatload of money, insane to think of "wasting" it. But it wasn't that much money to them, and ... the goal was well worth it. This had long been observed about LENR research: even if it was a long shot, the potential value was so great that if one could afford to lose the money, it could be a sane investment. What is one chance in a thousand of making a trillion dollars worth? I'm sure Alan could do the math. Anyone smart enough to love a metallurgical microscope is smart enough for that, but something has happened to Alan's metaprocessing. Maybe he will recover.

    2. But IH let him do it. Which seems so incredibly dumb. After all, if you want someone to hang themselves, you don't really need to give them $11.5 M to do it with

      Pure Alan Smith. I've been looking back at what Smith wrote early on, when Dewey Weaver appeared on Mats Lewan's blog. Alan Smith was very much Planet Rossi. I think he identified this as a losing position, but ... he still believes many of the PR tropes. Here, the trope is that the goal of Darden was to get Rossi to hang himself. No. His goal was twofold, and brilliantly simple: first, if Rossi had a real technology, to give him what he needed to demonstrate it, and then to make a ton of money by commercializing it. And if he did not, to find out as much of the truth as possible, instead of just jumping to conclusions because of suspicious behavior. Once IH decided to tolerate the Rossi quirks -- and they clearly made that choice by 2012 -- the rest followed, until it was Rossi that truly ended it by insisting on controlling the Doral site, excluding the IH engineer, and insisting on it being the GPT, even though Rossi knew that Ampenergo was deliberately not signing that amendment allowing postponing the test. Without Ampenergo consent, there was no GPT. If Ampenergo had unreasonably refused, Rossi could have made a separate agreement with IH. Instead, he took the horns by the bull.

    3. they did not tarnish it themselves!

      Well, they made mistakes, both scientific, but more to the point, social. However, I agree with the comment in general, because the mistakes they made were under pressure, and not intended to deceive, beyond some hiding of fact that they believed would be misunderstood. That's a huge story, part of the ultimate History of Cold Fusion. It really was the "scientific fiasco of the century," -- Huizenga's book subtitle. Cold fusion is real and it is not impossible that Pons could get a Nobel Prize, though it is more likely to go to someone who explains it, which has not yet been done, to my knowledge. That Pons abandoned the field does not bode well for that Nobel.

    4. Doc 207-36, PDF page 29.

      You know, folks, you could give direct page-jump links. Try it. It's easy. This one.

    5. What the heck is "durapox" anyway - a derivative of chickenpox or smallpox on Planet Rossi?

      There is a product, epoxy-based, called Durapox. This is just ordinary old-man confusion with the real name of the material, Durapot. What was remarkable was the sock on JONP repeating the error. Clues, anyone?

    6. All just one big mistake by Murray. 215-03, pages 263-264.

      See comment and study on coldfusioncommunity.net. Without evidence, this could be highly misleading. The cited reference does not support the claim.

    7. Darden is either a businessman with "astonishingly poor judgement who is pathologically bad at due diligence" or he had an ulterior motive (and maybe still does). It's one or the other.

      Black and white thinkers abound. Option A: businessman with poor judgment who makes billions with risky investments, and who came out cash way ahead by taking the Rossi Risk. "Poor judgment" means "not what I would do." Obviously! Option B" Ulterior motive." Like what? Making money? He's done that, amply. Burying the technology? How could he possibly do that if Rossi were not a Compleat Idiot? If he had legitimate misgivings and did not share them with Woodford, he'd be risking a very nasty lawsuit from an investor with deep pockets. We have no information confirming any investment with IH from the Chinese.

      Shallow thinking from shallow minds, knee-jerk, but ... common.

    8. Is there a Barry West or Dewey deposition somewhere amongst this document avalanche?

      Zeus46 has been very sarcastic about coldfusioncommunity.net, so it is totally understandable that he would not simply look at the docket page there, which is annotated, and use browser search to find documents.