55 Matching Annotations
  1. Jan 2025
    1. This presents a very dark prospect indeed, if one believes, as I do, that we cannot accept histheory of interpretation. I do not take so gloomy a view of thefuture of the ideal of fidelity to law

      Fuller challenges Hart’s assertion that effective communication and the authority of legal rules hinge on words possessing fixed, context-independent "standard instances" of meaning. Hart’s concern is that without such constancy in meaning, interpretation would become unpredictable, subjective, and unmanageable, ultimately eroding the rule of law and the ideal of fidelity to it. Essentially, Hart fears that if legal terms changed meaning with each new context, the coherence and stability of law would collapse, undermining its ability to command authority.

      Fuller counters this view by rejecting the necessity of Hart’s rigid framework for interpretation. He argues that legal interpretation does not rely on words having invariant meanings across all contexts. Instead, Fuller emphasizes the dynamic nature of interpretation, which often involves considering broader textual or situational contexts, such as entire statutes, paragraphs, or systems of laws, rather than isolating individual words. He also points out that many legal decisions involve reasoning about the general purpose or objectives of laws, rather than rigidly adhering to a "core" or standard meaning of specific terms.

    2. untenable

      Fuller critiques Hart's theory by arguing that it unrealistically assumes legal interpretation focuses on individual word meanings. In reality, judges interpret entire sentences, paragraphs, or texts, considering context and broader purposes. Fuller rejects Hart’s notion of a "standard instance" for words, emphasizing that even seemingly straightforward cases involve understanding the statute's overall objective, not rigidly applying isolated definitions.

    3. any notion of this sort in declaring void the more outrageousNazi statutes

      Fuller contends that an analysis of Nazi law would show it void of inner morality; and therefore not law.

    4. This complete willingness of the Nazis to disregard even theirown enactments was an important factor leading Radbruch to takethe position he did in the articles so severely criticized by Professor Hart

      If law is so readily and openly disregarded, if it is so illegitimate and meaningless does it still qualify as law?

    5. depend upon general acceptance and that to makethis acceptance secure there must be a general belief that the constitution itself is necessary, right, and good.

      Legitimacy conferred by general acceptance?

    6. Second, if there is a serious danger in our society that a weakening of the partition between law and morality would permit aninfusion of “immoral morality,” the question remains, what isthe most effective protection against this danger?

      Hart asks this too when questioning why Nazi law was so evil. He urges us to look beyond the law and see what societal factors induced people to act so wrongly.

    7. First, Professor Hart seems to assume that evil aims may haveas much coherence and inner logic as good ones. I, for one, refuseto accept that assumption.

      bruh

    8. If all the positivist school has tooffer in such times is the observation that, however you maychoose to define law, it is always something different from morals,its teachings are not of much use to us.

      I think this is an unfair criticism. Distinguishing law from morals is supposed to facilitate the scrutiny of law, and from here one can decide whether or not to obey. Bentham argued in favor of this distinction out of fear of the anarchist and quietist.

    9. Law, as something deservingloyalty, must represent a human achievement; it cannot be asimple fiat of power or a repetitive pattern discernible in the behavior of state officials. The respect we owe to human laws mustsurely be something different from the respect we accord to thelaw of gravitation. If laws, even bad laws, have a claim to ourrespect, then law must represent some general direction of humaneffort that we can understand and describe, and that we canapprove in principle even at the moment when it seems to us tomiss its mark.

      In essence, Fuller is emphasizing that law is more than a set of commands or observable patterns; it is a moral and purposeful institution, and this purposiveness gives it its claim to respect and fidelity. This view contrasts with a purely positivist perspective, which might see law as valid regardless of its moral content.

    10. tion arose not merely from the impasse we confronted, but because this impasse seemed to us so unnecessary. All that wasneeded to surmount it was an acknowledgment on the other sidethat its definitions of “what law really is” are not mere images ofsome datum of experience, but direction posts for the applicationof human energies. Since this acknowledgment was not forthcoming, the impasse and its frustrations continued. There is indeedno frustration greater than to be confronted by a theory whichpurports merely to describe, when it not only plainly prescribes,but owes its special prescriptive powers precisely to the fact thatit disclaims prescriptive intentions.

      Fuller expresses dissatisfaction with legal positivism, arguing that its theories distort the aims of legal philosophy by focusing narrowly on what law "is" without considering its broader purposes or moral implications.

      He describes a frustrating deadlock between proponents of legal positivism and those like himself who believe that law cannot be reduced to mere descriptions of existing legal systems. The impasse arises because positivists refuse to recognize that their definitions of law act as "direction posts" that guide human behavior and societal organization, rather than mere reflections of observable phenomena.

      While it claims to be purely descriptive, it is, in fact, deeply prescriptive, shaping legal understanding and practice under the guise of neutrality. This disingenuous stance gives positivism its "special prescriptive powers," which frustrates Fuller and others who see this as a refusal to engage openly with the moral and purposive dimensions of law.

    11. There is no reason why the argument for a strict separation of law and morality cannot be restedon the double ground that this separation serves both intellectualclarity and moral integrity.

      Intellectual clarity is clear but I don't know how he defends it on the basis of moral integrity

    12. It is not clear, in other words,whether in Professor Hart’s own thinking the distinction betweenlaw and morality simply "is,” or is something that "ought to be”

      It is relatively clear, he says it is something that ought to be

    13. At other times, he seemed to be warning us that the realityof the distinction is itself in danger and that if we do not mendour ways of thinking and talking we may lose a "precious moral

      The principle that Hart contends is violated in the grudge informer case is 'fidelity to law'?

      Okay not sure if this is true, lets see how Fuller defines it.

    14. At timeshe seemed to be saying that the distinction between law andmorality is something that exists, and will continue to exist, however we may talk about it.

      He does say it exists, the purpose of his essay is to explain the dangers of it.

    15. Intelligible communication on any subject, he seems to imply, becomesimpossible if we leave it uncertain whether we are talking about"what is” or "what ought to be.”

      He rejects confounding law as is with law as ought to be as it confuses analysis. The whole point of legal positivism was to make it easier for men to see the consequences of morally bad laws.

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    1. Nonetheless Ithink (though I cannot prove) that insistence upon the distinctionbetween law as it is and ought to be has been, under the generalhead of "positivism," confused with a moral theory according towhich statements of what is the case ("statements of fact")belong to a category or type radically differentfrom statements ofwhat ought to be ("value statements").

      He argues that positivism is distinct from a moral theory according to which statements of fact are radically different from statements of what ought to be

    2. Only if the rulesfailed to provide these essential benefits and protection for any-one -even for a slave-owning group -would the minimum beunsatisfiedand the system sink to the status of a set of meaninglesstaboos. Of course no one denied those benefits would have anyreason to obey except fear and would have every moral reason torevolt

      what is blud on about

    3. So there is, in the very notion of law consisting of generalrules, something which prevents us from treating it as if morallyit is utterly neutral, without any necessary contact with moralprinciples.

      if essential characteristics of legal systems include general rules, then this entails the principle of justice: the principle of treating like cases alike. (How is this justice?)

    4. overlap of legal rules and moralstandards is "necessary"in this sense

      So the overlap of legal rules and moral standards is necessary for the foundational rules (essential even) of a legal system.

      Fundamental rules are informed by morals, and these fundamental rules are what allow us to survive in society.

      Laws that stipulate anything beyond our basic survival are not categorically necessary and therefore needn't be informed by legal principles.

    5. their protest againstthe confusion of what is and what ought to be law has a moral aswell as an intellectual value

      Okay so the intellectual virtue is candour, clarity, and clear speech. What is the moral one?

    6. when we have the ample resourcesof plain speech we must not present the moral criticism of institu-tions as propositions of a disputable philosophy.

      real shit Herbert

    7. If, on the other hand, we formulate our ob-jection as an assertion that these evil things are not law, here isan assertion which many people do not believe, and if they aredisposed to consider it at all, it would seem to raise a whole hostof philosophical issues before it can be accepted

      real

    8. The vice of this use of the principle that, at certainlimiting points, what is utterly immoral cannot be law or lawfulis that it will serve to cloak the true nature of the problems withwhich we are faced and will encouragethe romantic optimism thatall the values we cherish ultimately will fit into a single system,that no one of them has to be sacrificed or compromisedto accom-modate another

      What is the 'true nature' of the problems we face?

    9. It would have made plain that in punishing thewoman a choice had to be made between two evils, that of leavingher unpunished and that of sacrificing a very precious principleof morality endorsed by most legal systems.

      The principle is of prospective legislation and no crime without law

    10. It is not, I think, uncharita-ble to say that we can see in his argument that he has only halfdigested the spiritual message of liberalism which he is seekingto convey to the legal profession. For everything that he says isreally dependent upon an enormous overvaluation of the impor-tance of the bare fact that a rule may be said to be a valid rule oflaw, as if this, once declared, was conclusive of the final moralquestion: "Ought this rule of law to be obeyed?" Surely the trulyliberal answer to any sinister use of the slogan "law is law" orof the distinction between law and morals is, "Very well, but thatdoes not conclude the question. Law is not morality; do not letit supplant morality."

      He has digested only half of the spiritual message of liberalism. What half did he digest and which did he omit?

      He recognized the liberal principle that a law is law regardless of moral principles. However, he neglected the second half of the principle which stipulates that just because 'law is law', does not mean it has to be obeyed.

      Once again we reaffirm that Law is NOT morality, do not let it supplant morality

    11. The most pernicious laws, and therefore those which are most op-posed to the will of God, have been and are continually enforced aslaws by judicial tribunals. Suppose an act innocuous, or positivelybeneficial,be prohibitedby the sovereignunder the penalty of death;if I commit this act, I shall be tried and condemned,and if I objectto the sentence, that it is contrary to the law of God . . . the courtof justice will demonstrate the inconclusiveness of my reasoning-byhanging me up, in pursuance of the law of which I have impugnedthe validity. An exception, demurrer,or plea, founded on the law ofGod was never heard in a Court of Justice, from the creation of theworld down to the present moment

      This is correct. Arguing that a morally bad law is 'not a law' is unnecessarily confusing and misleading. Its also fucking pointless

    12. to assert mysteriouslythat there is some fused identity between law as it is and as itought to be, is to suggest that all legal questions are fundamentallylike those of the penumbra. It is to assert that there is no centralelement of actual law to be seen in the core of central meaningwhich rules have, that there is nothing in the nature of a legalrule inconsistent with all questions being open to reconsiderationin the light of social policy.

      The core settled meaning of legal rules is central, even if there are uncertainties at the boundaries.

    13. Perhaps the claim that it is wisecannot be theoretically refuted for it is, in effect, an invitation torevise our conception of what a legal rule is. We are invited toinclude in the "rule" the various aims and policies in the light ofwhich its penumbral cases are decided on the ground that theseaims have, because of their importance,as much right to be calledlaw as the core of legal rules whose meaning is settled.

      Stupid fucking invitation

    14. Here the choice of sentencemight be guided exclusively by consideration of what was neededto maintain the state's tyranny effectively.

      Example of reasoning weighing factors of efficiency and duty not morality

    15. It does not followthat, because the opposite of a decision reached blindly in the for-malist or literalist manner is a decision intelligently reached byreferenceto some conception of what ought to be, we have a junc-tion of law and morals.

      Rather, we have a junction of Law and Social Philosophies or Policies. These are distinct from morals, and carry different connotations

    16. instead ofsaying that the recurrence of penumbral questions shows us thatlegal rules are essentially incomplete, and that, when they fail todetermine decisions, judges must legislate and so exercise a cre-ative choice between alternatives, we shall say that the socialpolicies which guide the judges' choice are in a sense there forthem to discover; the judges are only "drawing out" of the rulewhat, if it is properly understood, is "latent" within it.

      what

    17. either the interpretations stigmatized asautomatic have resulted from the conviction that it is fairer in acriminal statute to take a meaning which would jump to the mindof the ordinaryman at the cost even of defeating other values, andthis itself is a social policy (though possibly a bad one); or muchmore frequently, what is stigmatized as "mechanical"and "auto-matic" is a determinedchoice made indeed in the light of a socialaim but of a conservative social aim.

      Why is formalism resorted to?

      To prevent odious interpretations, conservative social aim

    18. The misconception of the judicial process which ignores theproblems of the penumbraand which views the process as consist-ing pre-eminently in deductive reasoning is often stigmatized asthe error of "formalism" or "literalism.

      Overly methodical, wedded to formality

    19. Salmond, complainedthat the analysis in terms of com-mands left the notion of a right unprovided with a place

      This is true, and other rules exist to supplement commands. He was wrong to subsequently suggest that the lacuna be filled by moral principles.

    20. Under these rules we exercise powers, make claims,and assert rights

      Bottom line is that there are many rules not asserted as commands. These rules allow us the faculties to actualize wishes, choices, and assert rights.

    21. Plainly the general acceptance of the authority of alawmakingprocedure,irrespectiveof the changing individualswhooperate it from time to time, can be only distorted by an analysisin terms of mass habitual obedience to certain persons who are bydefinition outside the law, just as the cognate but much simplerphenomenonof the general social acceptanceof a rule, say of tak-ing off the hat when entering a church, would be distorted if repre-sented as habitual obedience by the mass to specific persons

      The acceptance of a lawmaking procedure’s authority is misunderstood if framed as mere habitual obedience to specific individuals.

      Such acceptance is not about obedience to people but about society's general recognition of the procedure’s legitimacy, regardless of who enacts it.

      Similarly, social rules, like removing a hat in church, reflect shared norms rather than obedience to particular individuals. Viewing these practices as "habitual obedience" oversimplifies and distorts their nature, as they are rooted in collective acknowledgment of rules or procedures, not submission to authority figures.

    22. These fundamental accepted rules specifying what the legislaturemust do to legislate are not commandshabitually obeyed, nor canthey be expressed as habits of obedience to persons. They lie atthe root of a legal system, and what is most missing in the utili-tarian scheme is an analysis of what it is for a social group and itsofficials to accept such rules.

      I will kill you Herbert

    23. Even if we waive this point, nothing which legislators do makeslaw unless they comply with fundamental accepted rules specify-ing the essential lawmaking procedures

      They are not absolute sovereigns and are regulated -- even constrained -- by these fundamental accepted rules

      Also WHAT ARE THEY?

    24. We must rememberthat the Utili-tarians combined with their insistence on the separation of lawand morals two other equally famous but distinct doctrines

      Imperative theory (command theory) Necessity of Analytical Jurisprudence Separation of Law and Morality

    25. when Benthamand Austin insisted on the distinction between law as it is and asit ought to be, they had in mind particular laws the meanings ofwhich were clear and so not in dispute, and they were concernedto argue that such laws, even if morally outrageous, were stilllaws

      What is Hart implying here? Is he suggesting that in cases beyond particular laws -- say entire legal systems -- this distinction is less clear?

    26. by ex-plicit legal provisions moral principles might at differentpoints bebrought into a legal system and form part of its rules, or thatcourts might be legally bound to decide in accordance with whatthey thought just or best

      For example, penumbral cases where law requires extrapolation, interpretation, and application

    27. Austin's protest against blurring the distinction between whatlaw is and what it ought to be is quite general: it is a mistake,whatever our standard of what ought to be, whatever "the text bywhich we regulate our approbation or disapprobation.

      So Austin protests against blurring the distinction on the basis that "it it a mistake." On what grounds?

    28. were the vanguard ofa movement which laboured with passionate intensity and muchsuccess to bring about a better society and better laws. Why thendid they insist on the separation of law as it is and law as it oughtto be?

      How does legal positivism make society better?

    29. the passionfor reform with respect for law together with a due recognition ofthe need to control the abuse of power even when power is in thehands of reformers

      Hart suggests that positivism was informed by the desire to control the abuse of power. How does the infusion of morals into the law become susceptible to tyranny.

    30. In consideringthese questions we should recall the social philosophy which wentalong with the Utilitarians' insistence on this distinction. Theystood firmly but on their own utilitarian ground for all the prin-ciples of liberalism in law and government

      How do principles of liberalism inform legal positivism?

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