18 Matching Annotations
  1. Jan 2022
    1. The class cannot be a member of itself nor can one of themembers be the class, since the term used for the class is of a different level of abstraction--adifferent Logical Type--from terms used for members. Although in formal logic there is anattempt to maintain this discontinuity between a class and its members, we argue that in thepsychology of real communications this discontinuity is continually and inevitably breached (2),and that a priori we must expect a pathology to occur in the human organism when certainformal patterns of the breaching occur in the communication between mother and child.

      The Theory of Logical Types was Russell and Whitehead's attempt to ward off the various paradoxes that were obstructing them and in their quest for an axiomatic foundations for mathematics.

      It was an attempt to rid formal systems of self-reference (the supposed source of many paradoxes), an attempt that Gödel later showed was flawed. Turns out you can't keep self-reference out of a system just be banning explicit forms of it.

      As far as I can tell, the Double Bind idea is not actually grounded in the Theory of Logical Types in any load bearing way, though depending on your background it is a somewhat illuminating example/connection/comparison.

  2. Dec 2021
    1. ple plausible ways to fill in the details in ways that either harm you or help you. These two morphed into a beast where I felt like I wasn't allowed to want anything I didn't immediately kno

      blah blah

  3. Nov 2021
    1. Despite the fact that this whole paper is framed as a theory of Schizophrenia, I find it an incredibly valuable lens for everyday social reality.

      I see ways in which the double bind dynamics that Bateson et al. explore are present in low-key ways in many of my relationships, specifically in a fear of meta-communication.

    2. The ability to communicate about communication, to comment uponthe meaningful actions of oneself and others, is essential for successful social intercourse. In anynormal relationship there is a constant interchange of metacommunicative messages such as"What do you mean?" or "Why did you do that?" or "Are you kidding me?" and so on

      Interestingly, norms about being cool, aloof, and above it all generally push in the direction of throwing shade and low/high key derision at meta-communicative statements.

      "Hah, what a scrub for having to ask if that was a joke."

    3. The only way the child can really escape from the situation is to comment on thecontradictory position his mother has put him in. However, if he did so, the mother would takethis as an accusation that she is unloving and both punish him and insist that his perception of thesituation is distorted.

      Pointing out the contradiction in a frame and exiting it is the only way to deal with paradox, and that is what anyone preventing meta-communication is trying to make harder.

    4. Toput it another way, the mother is controlling the child's definitions of his own messages, as wellas the definition of his responses to her (e.g., by saying, "You don't really mean to say that," if heshould criticize her) by insisting that she is not concerned about herself but only about him

      "Letting other people control the definition of your messages" reminds me of other patterns. Something that used to happen a lot to me in highschool: I'd argue a point, the other would misinterpret my point and argue against their misinterpretation, and I'd get bamboozled into argue for their misinterpretation of my point! This happened way more than I was happy with.

    5. To put this another way, if the mother begins to feel affectionateand close to her child she begins to feel endangered and must withdraw from him; but she cannotaccept this hostile act and to deny it must simulate affection and closeness with her child. Theimportant point is that her loving behavior is then a comment on (since it is compensatory for)her hostile behavior and consequently it is of a different order of message than the hostilebehavior--it is a message about a sequence of messages. Yet by its nature it denies the existenceof those messages which it is about, i.e., the hostile withdrawal.

      Emphasis on how self-deception in a powerful party is enforced on others. There is a contradiction in what the mother wants. She wants to have an idea of herself as having a close and affectionate relationship, but actually being close makes her uncomfortable. Her answer is to simulate affection and ignore that contradiction, while implicitly demanding the same from the son.

    6. This means that he must deceive himself abouthis own internal state in order to support mother in her deception

      Again: self-deception rooted in supporting the self-deception of a powerful party.

    7. the child is placed in a position where he must not accurately interpret hercommunication if he is to maintain his relationship with her.

      This gives me chills. Versions of this feel like the defining ambient feature of many of my interactions with the adult world as a child. "You must not accurately interpret what is happening, or there will be trouble".

    8. The point is that he cannot choose theone alternative which would help him to discover what people mean; he cannot, withoutconsiderable help, discuss the messages of others. Without being able to do that, the humanbeing is like any self-correcting system which has lost its governor; it spirals into never-ending,but always systematic, distortions

      Meta-communication is the key to escaping double binds. It's also a thing that in harsher environs you get punished for. Even in non-pathological situations, there's a general willingness to punish meta-communication in low-key ways. @whomademecrispy has a great post about his struggles with literalism as a kid, and recounts constantly punished by people around him for trying to clarify the nature of their messages.

      Again, though this essay is framed as being about Schizophrenia, it's exploring a dynamic that's everywhere (in high and low key ways) in the social realm.

    9. The pathology enters when the victim himself either does not know that his responses aremetaphorical or cannot say so. To recognize that he was speaking metaphorically he would needto be aware that he was defending himself and therefore was afraid of the other person. To himsuch an awareness would be an indictment of the other person and therefore provoke disaster.

      This is the side of "the role of self-deception is to deceive others" that I want more writing about. Here, the way that seeing the reality of the situation would "provoke disaster" is because to be fully aware of said reality makes it harder to lie about it, which means they're more likely to provoke the wrath of the person they're afraid of, who punishes them for being afraid of them.

    10. e responded literally because he was faced with a messagewhich asked him what he was doing at home when he should have been at the office, but whichdenied that this question was being asked by the way it was phrased. (Since the speaker felt itwasn't really his business, he spoke, metaphorically.)

      Literalism as a stonewall defense against disguised interrogations

    11. Finally, the complete set of ingredients is no longer necessary when the victim haslearned to perceive his universe in double bind patterns.

      As always there's a spectrum of this. I notice specific questions transport me to a mode where I experience a double bind, but I can be shook out of it if I'm poked.

    12. "Do not see this as punishment"; "Do not see me as the punishingagent"; "Do not submit to my prohibitions"; "Do not think of what you must not do";"Do not question my love of which the primary prohibition is (or is not) an example"

      A very common pattern that a friend just reminded me of is 1) "Do X" paired with 2) "See doing X as something you chose freely".

      Zizek relates a similar anecdote in this tweet.

    13. Therefore, we must look not for somespecific traumatic experience in the infantile etiology but rather for characteristic sequentialpatterns. The specificity for which we search is to be at an abstract or formal level. Thesequences must have this characteristic: that from them the patient will acquire the mental habitswhich are exemplified in schizophrenic communication. That is to say, he must live in a universewhere the sequences of events are such that his unconventional communicational habits will b ein some sense appropriate

      I love this lens for trying to understand behavior!

      "How might this be an adaptive learned response to some previous environment?" It still locates the origins of the behavior in the past, but not in a way that is immutable. The past was a specific context where you learned a particular way of being. Understanding the past is useful for understanding the structure of the way of being you learned, and changing that way of being is what happens in the present.

    14. But metaphor is an indispensable tool of thought and expression--acharacteristic of all human communication, even of that of the scientist. The conceptual modelsof cybernetics and the energy theories of psychoanalysis are, after all, only labeled metaphors.The peculiarity of the schizophrenic is not that he uses metaphors, but that he uses unlabeledmetaphors.

      Metaphors We Live By is a great exploration of metaphor as an indispensable tool of thought.