7,173 Matching Annotations
  1. Oct 2025
    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Major Concerns:

      (1) Lack of Direct Evidence for RadD-NKp46 Interaction

      The central claim that RadD interacts with NKp46 is not formally demonstrated. A direct binding assay (e.g., Biacore, ELISA, or pull-down with purified proteins) is essential to support this assertion. The absence of this fundamental experiment weakens the mechanistic conclusions of the study.

      The reviewer is correct. Direct assays are currently quite impossible because RadD is huge protein and it will take years to purify it. Instead, we used immunoprecipitation assays using NKp46-Ig (Author response images 1 and 2). Fusobacteria were lysed using RIPA buffer, and the lysates were centrifuged twice to separate the supernatant from the pellet (which contains the bacterial membranes). The resulting lysates were incubated overnight with 2.5 µg of purified NKp46 and protein G-beads. After thorough washing, the bound proteins were placed in sample buffer and heated at 95 °C for 8 minutes. The eluates were run on a 10% acrylamide gel and visualized by Coomassie blue staining. As can be seen the NKp46-Ig was able to precipitate protein band around 350Kd in both F. polymorphum ATCC10953 (Author response image 1) and in F. nucleatum ATCC23726 (Author response image 2).

      Author response image 1. NKp46 immunoprecipitation with Fusobacterium polymorphum (ATCC 10953) lysates. The resulting lysates of supernatant and pellet of Fusobacterium were immunoprecipitated (IP) with 2.5 μg of control fusion protein (RBD-Ig) or with NKp46-Ig. A 2.5 μg of purified fusion proteins were also run on gel.

      Author response image 2. NKp46 immunoprecipitation with Fusobacterium nucleatum (ATCC 23726) lysates. The resulting lysates of supernatant and pellet of Fusobacterium were immunoprecipitated (IP) with 2.5 μg of Control fusion protein (RBD-Ig) or with NKp46-Ig. 2.5 μg of purified fusion proteins were also run on gel.

      (2) Figure 2: Binding Specificity and Bacterial Strains

      A CEACAM1-Ig control should be included in all binding experiments to distinguish between specific and non-specific Ig interactions. There is differential Ig binding between strains ATCC 23726 and 10953. The authors should quantify RadD expression in each strain to determine if the difference in binding is due to variation in RadD levels.

      No significant difference in mCEACAM-1-Ig binding was observed across multiple independent experiments. Author response image 3 shows a representative histogram showing mCEACAM-1-Ig binding to F. nucleatum ATCC 23726 and F. polymorphum ATCC 10953. Comparable binding levels were detected in both bacterial species (upper histogram). Similarly, NKp46-Ig and Ncr1-Ig fusion proteins exhibited comparable binding patterns (lower histogram). It is currently not possible to quantify RadD expression directly, as no anti-RadD antibody is available.

      Author response image 3. CEACAM-1 Ig binding to Fusobacterium ATCC 23726 and ATCC 10953. Upper histograms show staining with secondary antibody alone (gray) compared to CEACAM-1 Ig (black line). Lower histograms show binding of NKp46 and Ncr1 fusion proteins to the two Fusobacterium strains. Gray represent secondary antibody controls.

      (3) Figure 3: Flow Cytometry Inconsistencies and Missing Controls

      What do the FITC-negative, Ig-negative events represent? The authors should clarify whether these are background signals, bacterial aggregates, or debris.

      We now present the gating strategy used in these experiments (Author response image 4). Fusion negative Ig samples were the bacterial samples stained only with the secondary antibody APC (anti-human AF647). The TITC-negative represent unlabeled bacteria.

      Author response image 4. Gating strategy for FITC-labeled Fusobacterium stained with fusion proteins. Bacteria were first gated as shown in the left panel. The gated population was then further analyzed in the right plot: the lower-left quadrant represents bacterial debris, the upper-left quadrant corresponds to FITC-stained bacteria only, and the upper-right quadrant shows bacteria double-positive for FITC and APC, indicating binding of the fusion proteins.

      Panel B, CEACAM1-Ig binding appears markedly increased compared to WT bacteria. The reason for this enhancement should be discussed-does it reflect upregulation of the bacterial ligand or an artifact of overexpression? Fluorescence compensation should be carefully reviewed for the NKp46/NCR1-Ig binding assays to ensure that the signals are not due to spectral overlap or nonspecific binding. Importantly, binding experiments using the FadI/RadD double knockout strain are missing and should be included. This control is essential.

      We don’t know why expression of CEACAM1-Ig binding is increased. Indeed, it will be nice to have the FadI/RadD double knockout strain which we currently don’t have.

      In Panel E, the basis for calculating fold-change in MFI is unclear. Please indicate the reference condition to which the change is normalized.

      The mean fluorescence intensity (MFI) fold change was calculated by dividing the MFI obtained from staining with the fusion proteins by the MFI of the corresponding secondary antibody control (bacteria incubated without fusion proteins).

      (4) Figure 4: Binding Inhibition and Receptor Sensitivity

      Panel A lacks representative FACS plots and is currently difficult to interpret.

      Fusobacteria binding to CEACAM-1, NKp46, and NCR1 fusion proteins was tested in the presence of 5 and 10 mM L-arginine (Author response image 5). L-arginine inhibited the binding of NKp46-Ig and NCR1-Ig, whereas no effect was observed on CEACAM-1-Ig binding.

      Author response image 5. Fusobacterium binding inhibition by L-Arginine. The figure shows the binding of CEACAM1-Ig (left panel), NKp46-Ig (middle panel), and Ncr1-Ig (right panel) in the presence of 0 mM (black), 5 mM (red), and 10 mM (blue) L-arginine.

      Differences in the sensitivity of human vs. mouse NKp46 to arginine inhibition should be discussed, given species differences in receptor-ligand interactions.

      Ncr1, the murine orthologue of human NKp46, shares approximately 58% sequence identity with its human counterpart (1). The observed differences in arginine-mediated inhibition of bacterial binding between mouse and human NKp46 might stem from structural differences or distinct posttranslational modifications, such as glycosylation. Indeed, prediction algorithms combined with high-performance liquid chromatography analysis revealed that Ncr1 possesses two putative novel O-glycosylation sites, of which only one is conserved in humans (2).

      References

      (1) Biassoni R., Pessino A., Bottino C., Pende D., Moretta L., Moretta A. The murine homologue of the human NKp46, a triggering receptor involved in the induction of natural cytotoxicity. Eur J Immunol. 1999 Mar; 29(3).

      (2) Glasner A., Roth Z., Varvak A., Miletic A., Isaacson B., Bar-On Y., Jonjić S., Khalaila I., Mandelboim O. Identification of putative novel O-glycosylations in the NK killer receptor Ncr1 essential for its activity. Cell Discov. 2015 Dec 22; 1:15036.

      What are the inhibition results using F. nucleatum strains deficient in FadI?

      The inhibition pattern observed in the F. nucleatum ΔFadI mutant was comparable to that of the wild-type strain (Author response image 6). When cultured under identical conditions and exposed to increasing concentrations of arginine (0, 5, and 10 mM), the F. nucleatum ΔFadI strain also demonstrated a dose-dependent reduction in binding to NKp46 and Ncr1.

      Author response image 6. Arginine inhibition of NKp46-Ig and Ncr1-Ig binding in F. nucleatum ΔFadI. Histograms show NKp46-Ig (A, C) and Ncr1-Ig (B, D) binding to F. nucleatum ATCC10953 ΔFadI (A and B) and to F. nucleatum ATCC23726 ΔFadI (A and B) following exposure to 5 mM and 10 mM L-Arginine. Panels (E) and (F) display the mean fluorescence intensity (MFI) quantification corresponding to (A and B) and (C and D), respectively.

      In Panel B, CEACAM1-Ig and RadD-deficient bacteria must be included as negative controls for binding specificity upon anti-NKp46 blocking.

      We appreciate the request to include CEACAM1-Ig and RadD-deficient bacteria as negative controls for specificity under anti-NKp46 blocking. We don’t not think it is necessary since the 02 antibody is specific for NKp46, we used other anti0NKp46 antibodies that did not block the interaction and an irrelevant antibofy, we showed that arginine produced a dose-dependent reduction in NKp46/Ncr1 binding, consistent with an arginine-inhibitable RadD interaction already shown in our manuscript (Fig. 4A). The ΔRadD strains we used already demonstrate loss of NKp46/Ncr1 binding and loss of NK-boosting activity (Figs. 3, 5). Collectively, these data establish that NKp46/Ncr1 recognition of a high-molecular-weight ligand consistent with RadD is specific and functionally relevant.

      Figure 5: Functional NK Activation and Tumor Killing

      In Panels B and C, the key control condition (NK cells + anti-NKp46, without bacteria) is missing. This is needed to evaluate if NKp46 recognition is involved in tumor killing. The authors should explicitly test whether pre-incubation of NK cells with bacteria enhances their anti-tumor activity.

      No significant difference in NK cell cytotoxicity was observed between untreated NK cells and NK cells incubated with anti-NKp46 antibody in the absence of bacteria. Therefore, the NK + anti-NKp46 (O2) group was included as an additional control alongside the other experimental conditions shown in Figures 5b and 5c, and is presented in Author response image 7 below.

      Author response image 7. NK cytotoxicity against breast cancer cell lines. NK cell cytotoxicity against T47D (left) and MCF7 (right) breast cancer cell lines. This experiment follows the format of Figure 5b and 5c, with the addition of the NK cells + O2 antibody group. No significant differences were observed when values were normalized to NK cells alone.

      Could bacteria induce stress signals in tumor cells that sensitize them to NK killing? This distinction is critical.

      It remains unclear whether the bacteria induce stress-related signals in tumor cells that render them more susceptible to NK cell–mediated cytotoxicity.

      (6) Figure 5D: Mechanism of Peripheral Activation

      It is suggested that contact between bacteria and NK cells in the periphery leads to their activation. Can the authors confirm whether this pre-activation leads to enhanced killing of tumor targets, or if bacteria-tumor co-localization is required? The literature indicates that F. nucleatum localizes intracellularly within tumor cells. If so, how is RadD accessible to NKp46 on infiltrating NK cells?

      We do not expect that pre-activation of NK cells with bacteria would enhance their tumor-killing capacity. In fact, when NK cells were co-incubated with bacteria, we occasionally observed NK cell death. Although F. nucleatum can reside intracellularly, bacterial entry requires prior adhesion to tumor cells. At this stage—before internalization—the bacteria are accessible for recognition and binding by NK cells.

      (8) Figure 5E and In Vivo Relevance

      Surprisingly, F. nucleatum infection is associated with increased tumor burden. Does this reflect an immunosuppressive effect? Are NK cells inhibited or exhausted in infected mice (TGIT, SIGLEC7...)? If NK cell activation leads to reduced tumor control in the infected context, the role of RadD-induced activation needs further explanation. RadD-deficient bacteria, which do not activate NK cells, result in even poorer tumor control. This paradox needs to be addressed: how can NK activation impair tumor control while its absence also reduces tumor control?

      Siglec-7 lacks a direct orthologue in mice, and neither mouse TIGIT nor CEACAM1 bind F. nucleatum. The increased tumor burden observed in infected mice may therefore result from bacterial interference with immune cell infiltration and accumulation within the tumor microenvironment (Parhi, L., Alon-Maimon, T., Sol, A. et al. Breast cancer colonization by Fusobacterium nucleatum accelerates tumor growth and metastatic progression. Nat Commun 11, 3259 (2020)). Consequently, the NK cells that do reach the tumor site can recognize and kill F. nucleatum–bearing tumor cells through RadD–NKp46 interactions. In the absence of RadD, this recognition is impaired, leading to reduced NK-mediated cytotoxicity and increased tumor growth.

      (9) NKp46-Deficient Mice: Inconsistencies

      In Ncr1⁻/⁻ mice, infection with WT or RadD-deficient F. nucleatum has no impact on tumor burden. This suggests that NKp46 is dispensable in this context and casts doubt on the physiological relevance of the proposed mechanism. This contradiction should be discussed more thoroughly.

      Ncr1 is also directly involved in mediating NK cell–dependent killing of tumor cells, even in the absence of bacterial infection. Therefore, in Ncr1-deficient mice, F. nucleatum has no additional effect on tumor progression (Glasner, A., Ghadially, H., Gur, C., Stanietsky, N., Tsukerman, P., Enk, J., Mandelboim, O. Recognition and prevention of tumor metastasis by the NK receptor NKp46/NCR1. J Immunol. 2012).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:

      (1) A previous study by this group (PMID: 38952680) demonstrated that RadD of F. nucleatum binds to NK cells via Siglec-7, thereby diminishing their cytotoxic potential. They further proposed that the RadD-Siglec-7 interaction could act as an immune evasion mechanism exploited by tumor cells. In contrast, the present study reports that RadD of F. nucleatum can also bind to the activating receptor NKp46 on NK cells, thereby enhancing their cytotoxic function.

      Siglec-7 lacks a direct orthologue in mice, and neither mouse TIGIT nor CEACAM1 bind F. nucleatum. In contrast, NKp46 and its murine homologue, Ncr1, both recognize and bind the bacterium.

      While F. nucleatum-mediated tumor progression has been documented in breast and colon cancers, the current study proposes an NK-activating role for F. nucleatum in HNSC. However, it remains unclear whether tumor-infiltrating NK cells in HNSC exhibit differential expression of NKp46 compared to Siglec-7. Furthermore, heterogeneity within the NK cell compartment, particularly in the relative abundance of NKp46⁺ versus Siglec-7⁺ subsets, may differ substantially among breast, colon, and HNSC tumors. Such differences could have been readily investigated using publicly available single-cell datasets. A deeper understanding of this subset heterogeneity in NK cells would better explain why F. nucleatum is passively associated with a favorable prognosis in HNSC but correlates with poor outcomes in breast and colon cancers.

      Currently, there are no publicly available single-cell datasets suitable for characterizing NK cell heterogeneity in the context of F. nucleatum infection—particularly regarding the expression of Siglec-7, NKp46, or CEACAM1 and their potential association with poor clinical outcomes in breast, head and neck squamous cell carcinoma (HNSC), or colorectal cancer (CRC). Furthermore, no RNA-seq datasets are available for breast cancer cases specifically associated with F. nucleatum infection and poor prognosis. Therefore, we analyzed bulk RNA expression datasets for Siglec-7 and CEACAM1 and evaluated their associations with HNSC and CRC using the same patient databases utilized in our manuscript (Author response image 8). No significant differences in Siglec-7 expression were detected between HNSC and CRC samples (Author response image 8A). Although CEACAM1 mRNA levels did not differ between F. nucleatum–positive and –negative cases within either cancer type, its overall expression was higher in CRC compared to HNSC (Author response image 8B).

      Author response image 8. Siglec7 and Ceacam1 expression and the prognostic effect of F. nucleatum in a tumor-type-specific manner. Comparison of Siglec7 (A) and Ceacam1 (B) expression across HNSC and CRC tumors. Log₂ expression levels of NKp46 mRNA were compared across HNSC and CRC cohorts, stratified by F. nucleatum positive and negative. Results were analyzed by one-way ANOVA with Bonferroni post hoc correction.

      (2) The in vivo tumor data (Figure 5D-F) appear to contradict the authors' claims. Specifically, Figure 5E suggests that WT mice engrafted with AT3 breast tumors and inoculated with WT F. nucleatum exhibited an even greater tumor burden compared to mice not inoculated with F. nucleatum, indicating a tumor-promoting effect. This finding conflicts with the interpretation presented in both the results and discussion sections.

      Siglec-7 lacks a direct orthologue in mice, and neither mouse TIGIT nor CEACAM1 bind F. nucleatum. The increased tumor burden observed in infected mice may therefore result from bacterial interference with immune cell infiltration and accumulation within the tumor microenvironment (Parhi, L., Alon-Maimon, T., Sol, A. et al. Breast cancer colonization by Fusobacterium nucleatum accelerates tumor growth and metastatic progression. Nat Commun 11, 3259 (2020)). Consequently, the NK cells that do reach the tumor site can recognize and kill F. nucleatum–bearing tumor cells through RadD–NKp46 interactions. In the absence of RadD, this recognition is impaired, leading to reduced NK-mediated cytotoxicity and increased tumor growth.

      (3) Although the authors acknowledge that F. nucleatum may have tumor context-specific roles in regulating NK cell responses, it is unclear why they chose a breast cancer model in which F. nucleatum has been reported to promote tumor growth. A more appropriate choice would have been the well-established preclinical oral cancer model, such as the 4-nitroquinoline 1-oxide (4NQO)-induced oral cancer model in C57BL/6 mice, which would more directly relate to HNSC biology.

      The tumor model we employed is, to date, the only model in which F. nucleatum has been shown to exert a measurable effect, which is why we selected it for our study (Parhi, L., Alon-Maimon, T., Sol, A. et al. Breast cancer colonization by Fusobacterium nucleatum accelerates tumor growth and metastatic progression. Nat Commun. 2020; 11: 3259). We have not tested the 4-nitroquinoline-1-oxide (4NQO)–induced oral cancer model, and we are uncertain whether its use would be ethically justified.

      (4) Since RadD of F. nucleatum can bind to both Siglec-7 and NKp46 on NK cells, exerting opposing functional effects, the expression profiles of both receptors on intratumoral NK cells should be evaluated. This would clarify the balance between activating and inhibitory signals in the tumor microenvironment and provide a more mechanistic explanation for the observed tumor context-dependent outcomes.

      This question was answered in Author response image 8 above.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      This is an interesting study on the role of FGF signaling in the induction of primitive streak-like cells (PS-LC) in human 2D-gastruloids. The authors use a previously characterized standard culture that generates a ring of PSLCs (TBXT+) and correlate this with pERK staining. A requirement for FGF signaling in TBXT induction is demonstrated via pharmacological inhibition of MEK and FGFR activity. A second set of culture conditions (with no exogenous FGFs) suggests that endogenous FGFs are required for pERK and TBXT induction. The authors then characterize, via scRNA-seq, various components of the FGF pathway (genes for ligands, receptors, ERK regulators, and HSPG regulation). They go on to characterize the pFGFR1, receptor isoforms, and polarized localization of this receptor. Finally, they perform FGF4 inhibition and use a cell line with a limited FGF17 inactivation (heterozygous null) and show that loss of these FGFs reduces PS-LC and derivative cell types. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) As the authors point out, the role of FGF signaling in gastrulation is less well understood than other signaling pathways. Hence this is a valuable contribution to that field. 

      (2) The FGF4 and FGF17 loss-of-function experiments in Figure 5 are very intriguing. This is especially so given the intriguing observation that these FGFs appear to be dominating in this model of human gastrulation, in contrast to what FGFs dominate in mice, chicks, and frogs. 

      (3) In general this paper is valuable as a further development of the Human gastruloid system and the role of FGF signaling in the induction of PS-CLs. The wide net that the authors cast in characterizing the FGF ligand gene, receptor isoforms, and downstream components provides a foundation for future work. As the authors write near the beginning of the Discussion "Many questions remain." 

      We thank the reviewer for these positive comments.

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) FGFs are cell survival factors in various aspects of development. The authors fail to address cell death due to loss of FGF signaling in their experiments. For example, in Figure 1E (which requires statistical analysis) and 1G (the bottom FGFRi row), there appears to be a significant amount of cell loss. Is this due to cell death? The authors should address the question of whether the role of FGF/ERK signaling is to keep the cells alive. 

      Indeed, FGF also strongly affects cell survival and it is an interesting question to what extent this depends on ERK. Our manuscript focuses instead on the role of FGF/ERK signaling in cell fate patterning. As mentioned in our discussion, figure 1de show that doxycycline induced pERK leads to more TBXT+ cells than the control without restoring cell number, suggesting the role of FGF in controlling cell number is independent of the requirement for FGF/ERK in PS-LC differrentiation. To further support this, we have added data showing low doses of MEKi are sufficient to inhibit differentiation without affecting cell number (Supp. Fig. 1i).

      To address the reviewers question regarding the cause of cell loss, we now stained for BrdU and cleaved Cas3 to assess proliferation and apoptosis in the presence and absence of MEK and FGFR inhibition (new Supp. Fig.

      1ef). This shows that the effect of these inhibitors on cell number is primarily due to a reduction in proliferation. We have also included statistical analysis in Fig.1e. 

      (2) Regarding the sparse cells in 1G, is there a reduction in cell number only with FGFRi and not MEKi? Is this reproducible? Gattiglio et al (Development, 2023, PMID: 37530863) present data supporting a "community effect" in the FGF-induced mesoderm differentiation of mouse embryonic stem cells. Could a community effect be at play in this human system (especially given the images in the bottom row of 1G)? If the authors don't address this experimentally they should at least address the ideas in Gattoglio et al. 

      Indeed, FGFRi reproducibly affects cell number more than MEKi, in line with the fact that pathways other than MAPK/ERK downstream of FGF (e.g. PI3K) play important roles in cell survival and growth. However, we think the lack of differentiation in MEKi and FGFRi in Fig.1g cannot be attributed to a loss of cells combined with a community effect. This is because without FGFRi or MEKi cells efficiently differentiate to primitive streak at much lower densities than those originally shown, consistent with the data we discuss in response to (1) arguing against a primarily indirect effect of FGF on PS-LC differentiation through cell density. In the context of directed differentiation (rather than 2D gastruloids), we have now shown in a controlled manner that the effect of MEKi and FGFRi does not depend on a community effect by repeating the experiment in Fig.1g while adjusting cell seeding densities to obtain similar final cell densities in all three conditions (new Fig.1g, new Supp Fig.1g). Furthermore we have included new data showing extremely sparse cells without MEKi or FGFRi still differentiate without problems (new Supp Fig 1h). We have also include Gattoglio et al in our revised discussion.

      (3) Do the FGF4 and FGF17 LOF experiments in Figure 5 affect cell numbers like FGFRi in Figure 1? 

      We did not observe major changes in cell number in the FGF4 and FGF17 loss of function experiments. This is in line with our observation that low levels of ERK signaling are sufficient to maintain proliferation (new Supp. Fig. 1i), and the fact that low levels of ERK signaling are maintained in the absence of FGF4 and FGF17 (Fig.5), likely by FGF2 (Fig. 2). In contrast, FGFRi treatment in Fig.1 leads to a nearly complete loss of FGF signaling (ERK and other pathways) that has a dramatic effect on cell number.

      Why examine PS-LC induction only in FGF17 heterozygous cells and not homozygous FGF17 nulls? 

      We were unable to obtain homozygous FGF17 nulls, it is not clear if there is a reason for this. In the absence of homozygous nulls, we have now further corroborated our findings with additional knockdown data (described in response to other comments below).

      (4) The idea that FGF8 plays a dominant role during gastrulation of other species but not humans is so intriguing it warrants deeper testing. The authors dismiss FGF8 because its mRNA "...levels always remained low." (line 363) as well as the data published in Zhai et al (PMID: 36517595) and Tyser et al (PMID: 34789876). But there are cases in mouse development where a gene was expressed at levels so low, that it might be dismissed, and yet LOF experiments revealed it played a role or even was required in a developmental process. The authors should consider FGF8 inhibition or inactivation to explore its potential role, despite its low levels of expression. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now analyzed the role of FGF8 using FISH to visualize its expression and siRNA to understand its function (Fig.5d,f,h; Supp.Fig.5e,g,6e). We found that FGF8 expression is higher earlier in differentiation, preceding most expression of TBXT. Our scRNA-seq only analyzed samples at 42h so did not capture this. Furthermore, FGF8 expression localized inside the PS-like ring rather than coinciding with it like FGF4. Surprisingly, FGF8 knockdown led to an increase in primitive streak-like differentiation, suggesting it may counteract FGF4. The results are shown in the revised Fig. 5 and Supplemental Fig. 5. While this certainly merits further investigation, understanding the role of FGF8 in more detail is beyond the scope of the current work. 

      (5) Redundancy is a common feature in FGF genetics. What is the effect of inhibiting FGF4 in FGF17 LOF cells? 

      Further siRNA and shRNA experiments showed that FGF17 knockdown had a much smaller effect than FGF4 knockdown on expression of primitive streak markers (Fig.5i, Supp.Fig.6f-i) but that FGF17 knockdown did lead to a complete loss of the mesoderm marker TBX6 (Fig.5j, Supp.Fig.6j). A double knockdown of FGF4+FGF17 looked similar to FGF4 alone (Supp.Fig.6k). Thus, we now think the more likely scenario is that FGF17 is downstream of FGF4-dependent PS-differentiation and although this may have a positive feedback effect whereby this FGF17 can then enhance further PS-differentiation, which we previously interpreted as partial redundancy, the primary role of FGF17 may be later, in mesoderm differentiation.

      (6) I suggest stating that the authors take more caution in describing FGF gradients. For example, in one Results heading they write "Endogenous FGF4 and FGF17 gradients underly the ERK activity pattern.", implying an FGF protein gradient. However, they only present data for FGF mRNA , not protein. This issue would be clarified if they used proper nomenclature for gene, mRNA (italics), and protein (no italics) throughout the paper. 

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have edited the paper to more clearly distinguish protein and mRNA. We do think our data provide substantial indirect evidence for a protein gradient which is what the results heading is meant to convey. Receptor activation is high where ERK activity is high (Fig.3), and receptor activation is limited by ligands, since creating a scratch to let exogenous FGF reach the basal side of cells in the center leads to receptor activation (Fig.4). This strongly suggests ERK activity reflects an FGF protein gradient. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The role of FGFs in embryonic development and stem cell differentiation has remained unclear due to its complexity. In this study, the authors utilized a 2D human stem cell-based gastrulation model to investigate the functions of FGFs. They discovered that FGF-dependent ERK activity is closely linked to the emergence of primitive streak cells. Importantly, this 2D model effectively illustrates the spatial distribution of key signaling effectors and receptors by correlating these markers with cell fate markers, such as T and ISL1. Through inhibition and loss-of-function studies, they further corroborated the needs of FGF ligands. Their data shows that FGFR1 is the primary receptor, and FGF2/4/17 are the key ligands for primitive streak development, which aligns with observations in primate embryos. Additional experiments revealed that the reduction of FGF4 and FGF17 decreases ERK activity. 

      Strengths: 

      This study provides comprehensive data and improves our understanding of the role of FGF signaling in primate

      primitive streak formation. The authors provide new insights related to the spatial localization of the key components of FGF signaling and attempt to reveal the temporal dynamics of the signal propagation and cell fate decision, which has been challenging. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Given the solid data, the work only partially clarifies the complex picture of FGF signaling, so details remain somewhat elusive. The findings lack a strong punchline, which may limit their broader impact. 

      We thank this reviewer for their valuable feedback and compliment on the solidity of our data. The punchline of our work is that FGF4 and FGF17-dependent ERK signaling plays a key role in differentiation of human PS-like cells and mesoderm, and that these are different FGFs than those thought to drive mouse gastrulation. A second key point is that like BMP and TGFβ signaling, FGF signaling is restricted to the basolateral sides of pluripotent stem cell colonies due to polarized receptor expression, which is crucial for understanding the response to exogenous ligands added to the cell medium. Indeed, many facets of FGF signaling remain to be investigated in the future, such as how FGF regulates and is regulated by other signals, which we will dedicate a different manuscript to. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Jo and colleagues set out to investigate the origins and functions of localized FGF/ERK signaling for the differentiation and spatial patterning of primitive streak fates of human embryonic stem cells in a well-established micropattern system. They demonstrate that endogenous FGF signaling is required for ERK activation in a ringdomain in the micropatterns, and that this localized signaling is directly required for differentiation and spatial patterning of specific cell types. Through high-resolution microscopy and transwell assays, they show that cells receive FGF signals through basally localized receptors. Finally, the authors find that there is a requirement for exogenous FGF2 to initiate primitive streak-like differentiation, but endogenous FGFs, especially FGF4 and FGF17, fully take over at later stages. 

      Even though some of the authors' findings - such as the localized expression of FGF ligands during gastrulation and the importance of FGF/ERK signaling for cell differentiation in the primitive streak - have been reported in model organisms before, this is one of the first studies to investigate the role of FGF signaling during primitive streak-like differentiation of human cells. In doing so, the paper reports a number of interesting and valuable observations, namely the basal localization of FGF receptors which mirrors that of BMP and Nodal receptors, as well as the existence of a positive feedback loop centered on FGF signaling that drives primitive-streak differentiation. The authors also perform a comparison of the role of different FGFs across species and try to assign specific functions to individual FGFs. In the absence of clean genetic loss-of-function cell lines, this part of the work remains less strong. 

      We thank the reviewer for emphasizing the value of our findings in a human model for gastrulation. We agree more loss-of-function experiments would provide further insight into the role of different FGFs. While we did not manage to create knockout cell lines, we have now performed both siRNA and shRNA knock-down of all FGF4, and FGF17 in two different hPSC lines, performed siRNA knockdown of FGF8, and also made a FGF4+FGF17 shRNA double knockdown cell lines to more completely test the functions of the individual FGFs (Fig.5, Supp.Fig.5,6). Our data suggest FGF17 may be downstream of FGF4 and primarily required for mesoderm differentiation while FGF8 appears to counteract FGF4. In doing this we have added a large amount of new data to the manuscript and we have removed the heterozygous knockout data in the first version of the manuscript which we felt added little to the new data. Further experiments are still needed to solidify our interpretation but those are beyond the scope of the current work.   

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) FGF2 is added to culture experiments (e.g. Figure 4), but the commercial source is not mentioned in Methods. For example, it could be added to "Supplementary Table 1: Cell signaling reagents." 

      We apologize for this oversight and have now added the information to Supplementary Table 1.

      (2) Line 117-118: "For example, by controlling the expression of Wnt or Nodal which are both required for PS-like differentiation". It is clear what the authors mean, but this is not a complete sentence. 

      We edited this for clarity, it now reads: “First, is FGF/ERK signaling required directly for PS-like differentiation, or does it act indirectly? These possibilities are not mutually exclusive. For example, FGF/ERK could be required directly but also act indirectly by controlling Wnt or Nodal expression, as both Wnt and Nodal signaling are required for PS-like differentiation.”

      (3) Line 246 "...found its spatial pattern to strongly resembles that of pERK..." either remove "to" or change "resembles" to "resemble" 

      Thank you for catching this. We removed “to”.

      (4) Lines 391- 393 seem to be missing a word in the last phrase: "...with FGF17 more important continued differentiation to mesoderm and endoderm." Maybe "during" after the word "important"? 

      Thank you for catching this, indeed the word “during” was missing and we have now added it.

      (5) Please define acronyms in Figure 3D (PS-LC was defined previously, but not others). 

      We apologize for the oversight, we have now defined the acronyms.

      (6) The three blue lines in Figure 5B (right) are hard to discern (and I'm not colorblind). I suggest also using a variety of dotted lines in a subset of these FGFs. 

      Thanks you for the suggestion. We have now given all the FGFs colors that are more clearly distinct and made the TBXT and TBX6 lines dashed.  

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) The reviewer acknowledges that FGF signaling is complex, particularly when dynamics and its correlation with cell fates are considered. To improve the clarity of the findings, the authors are encouraged to provide an additional schematic figure that clearly delineates the main findings of this study.  

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have now added a summary figure (Fig.6) to our discussion, which we hope helps present our findings more clearly.

      (2) The data suggest that FGF signaling may function differently in mice compared to primates, and their stem cell model aligns more closely with the latter. While the authors discuss this in the contents only based on sequencing data, it would be valuable to conduct some experiments with mouse embryos to validate the key differences. 

      It is unclear to us which experiments the reviewer has in mind. There is ample data on FGF expression in the mouse literature, as are many knockout phenotypes. Furthermore, verifying loss of function phenotypes (e.g. FGF17 knockout) in mouse is beyond our expertise.

      (3) Heparan sulfate proteoglycan (HSPG) is mentioned as an important component of FGF signaling; however, the only data related to HSPG is single-cell sequencing results. The authors should consider performing immunostaining or other assays to validate HSPG expression and spatial distribution, similar to the approach they used for other signaling components. 

      Our scratch experiments in Fig. 4 strongly argue against HSPGs as being responsible for the spatial pattern of FGF receptor activation: after a scratch across the colony the response is strong all along the scratch as expected if presence of FGF (an FGF gradient) controls the level of activity. If HSPGs were limiting, FGF flowing in from the media show not be able to uniformly activate receptors around the scratch.

      In addtion, we have now included an immunostain for HS in a newly added Supp. Fig. 4 which does not explain the observed pattern of ERK signaling.

      (4) In the scratch experiment, particularly high PERK expression is observed at the edge of the scratch. The authors should provide an explanation for why this expression is significantly higher compared to the edges of the colony. Additionally, it would be interesting to investigate the fate of the cells with super high PERK expression.  

      We have now determined that adaptive response to FGF is the reason that the response around the scratch is initially much higher than in the ERK activity ring that overlaps with the primitive streak-like cells. We have added figures showing that although the intial response to FGF exposure after scratching is very high, the response around the scratch adapts to levels similar in those in the ERK ring over the course of 6 hours (Fig.4ij). 

      (5) For some of the key experiments, multiple cell lines should be used to ensure that the findings are reproducible and applicable across different human stem cell lines.

      We have now checked FISH stainings and knockdown phenotypes for different FGFs in two different cell lines: ESI17 (hESC, XX) and PGP1 (hiPSC, XY). These results are shown in Supplementary Figures 6. We found all results to be consistent.

      (6) Where applicable, the meaning of error bars needs to be more clearly presented, including details on the number of independent experiments or samples used. 

      Thank you for pointing this out. Where error bar definitions were missing we have now added them to the figure captions.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) The authors only analyze the ppERK ring in micropatterns of a single size. What was the motivation for the choice of this size? Can the authors how the ppERK ring is expected to depend on colony size? 

      Much smaller patterns lose the interior pluripotent regions while much larger patters have a much larger pluripotent region, which requires larger tilings to image without providing additional insight. The colony sizedependence of cell fate patterning was described in the paper that established the 2D gastruloids model (Warmflash Nat Methods 2014) and we later showed this due to a fixed length scale of the BMP and Nodal signaling gradients from the colony edge (Jo et al Elife 2022). We have now included data showing that the ERK patterns behaves similarly, with a fixed length scale of the pattern implying that in smaller colonies the ERK ring becomes a disc and the entire center of the colony has high ERK signaling (Supp Fig 1a).

      (2) The scRNAseq is somewhat confusing - why do the two datasets not overlap in the PHATE representation? This is unexpected, because the two samples have been treated similarly, and the authors have integrated their data to iron out possible batch effects. This discrepancy should be discussed. The authors should also specify from which reference exactly the first dataset comes from.  

      The two datasets do overlap nicely, the same fates are well mixed in the same place and the gene expresison profiles for the integrated data (e.g., Fig.2e) look smooth, so we believe the integration is good, but different cell fates are represented to different degrees. In particular, sample 2 shows much more mesoderm differentiation making the mesoderm branch mostly orange. Occassionally samples differentiate faster or slower than average which we see here, and these samples were collected far apart in time. We do not believe this affects our conclusions, if anything, we think performing the analysis on two samples that differ this much should make the conclusions more robust.  

      (3) If find it intriguing that exogenous FGF2 is important early on for primitive streak-like differentiation, although the authors show that it does not reach the center of the colony. The authors may want to discuss this conundrum. Does the FGF2 effect propagate from the outside to the inside, or does it act at an early stage when the cells have not yet formed a tight epithelium on the micropattern? 

      The cells in the experiment in Fig. 5a were given 24h to epithelialize, so we we do believe it acts from the edge. We believe this may be due to FGF2 modulating the early BMP response on the edge and are working on a manuscript that further explores this pathway crosstalk.

      (4) The authors' statement that FGF4 and FGF17 have partially redundant functions is not very strong, mainly because the study lacks a full FGF17 loss-of-function cell line. If the authors wanted to improve on this point, they could knock down FGF4 in the FGF17 heterozygous line, or produce a homozygous FGF17 KO line. If there are specific reasons why FGF17 homozygous lines cannot be produced, this could be interesting to discuss, too. Finally, I noticed that the methods list experiments with an FGF17 siRNA, but these are not shown in the manuscript. 

      We agree our evidence was previously not as strong as it could be. While there is no reason we know of why homozygous knockout lines cannot be produced, we failed to produce on. To strengthen our evidence we have therefore included substantial new knockdown data.  We have now performed both siRNA and shRNA knockdown of all FGF4, and FGF17 in two different hPSC lines, performed siRNA knockdown of FGF8, and also made a FGF4+FGF17 shRNA double knockdown cell lines to more completely test the functions of the individual FGFs (Fig.5, Supp.Fig.5,6). These experiments showed that FGF17 knockdown had a much smaller effect than FGF4 knockdown on expression of primitive streak markers (Fig.5i, Supp.Fig.6f-i) but that FGF17 knockdown did lead to a complete loss of the mesoderm marker TBX6 (Fig.5j, Supp.Fig.6j). A double knockdown of FGF4+FGF17 looked similar to FGF4 alone (Supp.Fig.6k). Thus, we now think the more likely scenario is that FGF17 is downstream of FGF4-dependent PS-differentiation and although this may have a positive feedback effect whereby this FGF17 can then enhance further PS-differentiation, which we previously interpreted as partial redundancy, the primary role of FGF17 may be later, in mesoderm differentiation. Furthermore, our new data suggests FGF8 may counteract FGF4 and limit PS-like differentiation. 

      Minor 

      (5) Line 63: Reference(s) appear to be missing. 

      This whole paragraph summarizes the results of the references given on line 55, we have now repeated the relevant references where the reviewer indicated.

      (6) Supplementary Figure 1a,b does not show ppERK, unlike stated in lines 102 - 104. 

      Indeed, the data described in lines 102-104 is shown in Fig.1a and we have removed the original Supplementary Figure 1ab since it did not provide relevant information.

      (7) Line 201: It is not clear whether this is a new sequencing dataset, or if existing datasets have been reanalyzed. 

      We agree our description was unclear. We have edited the text, which now explicitly states that our analysis is based on one dataset we collected previously and a replicate that was newly collected and deposited on GEO for this manuscript.

      (8) Figure 2f; Supplementary Figure 2b, c: The colors need to be explained in scale bars. How has this data been normalized to allow for comparison between very different sample types? 

      We have now added color bars indicating the scale for each of these figure panels. As the caption stated, the interspecies comparison was normalized within each species, so the highest FGF level for any FGF at any time within each species is normalized to one. We are thus comparing between species the relative expression of different FGFs within each species. Indeed there is no good way to compare absolute expression between species. For extra clarity we have expanded our description of the interspecies comparison analysis and normalization in the methods section.

      (9) Line 232: Where is the expression of SEF shown? 

      It is shown in Fig. 2i, under the official gene name IL17RD.

      (10) Supplementary Figure 4 seems to be missing. 

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have now added a supplementary Fig.4.

      (11) Line 437: Citation needed. 

      We have included citations now.

      (12) Line 439: A similar feedback loop has been proposed to operate during mesoderm differentiation in mouse ESC (pmid: 37530863 ). The authors may consider citing this work. 

      Thank you for the suggestion, we have now included this work in the discussion. The feedback loop proposed in that work involves FGF8, while we were trying to explain why FGF4 and not FGF8 appears to be conserved across species by invoking an FGF4 feedback loop. Thus, it becomes even harder to explain differences in FGF4 and FGF8 expression between human and mouse gastrulation.

      (13) Supplementary Figure 6 is not described in the main text. 

      We have removed the original Supplementary Figure 6 and corresponding heterozygous knockout data in the main figure which we felt added little to the extensive knockdown data we now present. We did create a new Supplementary Figure 6 showing additional knockdown data which is described in the main tekst.

      (14) Submission of sequencing data to GEO needs to be updated. 

      We have now made the GEO data public.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The manuscript explores behavioral responses of C. elegans to hydrogen sulfide, which is known to exert remarkable effects on animal physiology in a range of contexts. The possibility of genetic and precise neuronal dissection of responses to H2S motivates the study of responses in C. elegans. The revised manuscript does not seem to have significantly addressed what was lacking in the initial version. 

      The authors have added further characterization of possible ASJ sensing of H2S by calcium imaging but ASJ does not appear to be directly involved. Genetic and parallel analysis of O2 and CO2 responsive pathways do not reveal further insights regarding potential mechanisms underlying H2S sensing. Gene expression analysis extends prior work. Finally, the authors have examined how H2S-evoked locomotory behavioral responses are affected in mutants with altered stress and detoxification response to H2S, most notably hif-1 and egl-9. These data, while examining locomotion, are more suggestive that observed effects on animal locomotion are secondary to altered organismal toxicity as opposed to specific behavioral responedse 

      Overall, the manuscript provides a wide range of intriguing observations, but mechanistic insight or a synthesis of disparate data is lacking. 

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable feedback. We agree that while our investigation provides broad coverage, it does not fully resolve the mechanisms of H<sub>2</sub>S perception. As both reviewers noted, the avoidance response to high levels of H<sub>2</sub>S is most likely driven by its toxicity, particularly at the level of mitochondria, rather than by direct perception of H<sub>2</sub>S. We also favor this model and have revised the results and discussion to highlight this interpretation, while acknowledging that other mechanisms cannot be excluded (main changes lines 387-402 and 535-547).

      Building on this view, our observations point toward mitochondrial ROS transients as the trigger for H<sub>2</sub>S avoidance. First, toxic levels of H<sub>2</sub>S are known to promote ROS production (1). Second, similar to acute H<sub>2</sub>S, brief exposure to rotenone, an ETC complex I inhibitor that rapidly generates mitochondrial ROS, triggers locomotory responses (Figure 7E) (Lines 393-396). Third, regardless of duration, rotenone exposure inhibits H<sub>2</sub>S-evoked avoidance (Figure 7E) (Lines 389-391), likely by preventing or dampening H<sub>2</sub>S-evoked mitochondrial ROS bursts when ETC function is impaired and ROS is already high. Notably, animals subjected to prolonged rotenone exposure, ETC mutants, and quintuple sod mutants, each experiencing chronically high ROS levels, fail to respond to H<sub>2</sub>S and display reduced locomotory activity, presumably due to ROS toxicity and/or activation of stress-adaptive mechanisms (Figure 7).

      Consistent with the activation of stress-responsive pathways, H<sub>2</sub>S exposure alters expression of genes controlled by SKN-1 and HIF-1 signaling. Both pathways are ROS-sensitive and promote adaptation to chronic ROS production (2-4). Their activation, as in egl-9, render these animals insensitive to H<sub>2</sub>S-evoked ROS transients (Figure 5B) (Lines 303-305). Conversely, mutants defective in these adaptive pathways, such as hif-1, still show initial locomotory responses to H<sub>2</sub>S, but rapidly lose activity during prolonged H<sub>2</sub>S exposure (Figure 5D) (Lines 318-319). These observations suggest that HIF-1 pathway is dispensable for initiating the response to H<sub>2</sub>S evoked ROS transients, but essential for protecting against ROS toxicity.

      In this context, the neural circuit we examined, such as ASJ neurons, is not directly involved in H<sub>2</sub>S perception (Line 165-169 and 448-457). Instead, it likely modulates a circuit that is responsive to ROS toxicity. This circuit is also influenced by ambient O<sub>2</sub> levels, the state of O<sub>2</sub> sensing circuit, and nutrient status, in a manner reminiscent of the CO<sub>2</sub> responses (5, 6).

      Reviewer #4 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors establish a behavioral paradigm for avoidance of H2S and conduct a large candidate screen to identify genetic requirements. They follow up by genetically dissecting a large number of implicated pathways - insulin, TGF-beta, oxygen/HIF-1, and mitochondrial ROS, which have varied effects on H2S avoidance. They additionally assay whole-animal gene expression changes induced by varying concentrations and durations of H2S exposure. 

      Strengths: 

      The implicated pathways are tested extensively through mutants of multiple pathway molecules. The authors address previous reviewer concerns by directly testing the ability of ASJ to respond to H2S via calcium imaging. This allows the authors to revise their previous conclusion and determine that ASJ does not directly respond to H2S and likely does not initiate the behavioral response. 

      We thank the reviewer for the supportive comments.

      Weaknesses: 

      Despite the authors focus on acute perception of H2S, I don't think the experiments tell us much about perception. I think they indicate pathways that modulate the behavior when disrupted, especially because most manipulations used broadly affect physiology on long timescales. For instance, genetic manipulation of ASJ signaling, oxygen sensing, HIF-1 signaling, mitochondrial function, as well as starvation are all expected to constitutively alter animal physiology, which could indirectly modulate responses to H2S. The authors rule out effects on general locomotion in some cases, but other physiological changes could relatively specifically modulate the H2S response without being involved in its perception. 

      I am actually not convinced that H2S is directly perceived by the C. elegans nervous system at all. As far as I can tell, the avoidance behavior could be a response to H2S-induced tissue damage rather than the gas itself. 

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable insights, and fully agree that the H<sub>2</sub>S may not be directly perceived by C. elegans. Please see detailed responses below.

      Reviewer #4 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      The clarity of the paper is improved in this version. My main issue has to do with "perception" of H2S. At times the authors suggest that hydrogen sulfide should be perceived by a neural circuit ("we did not specifically identify the neural circuit mediating H2S signaling"), while at other times they discuss the possibility that it is not directly perceived neuronally ("Supporting the idea that acute mitochondrial ROS generation initiates avoidance of high H2S levels,"). The authors should clearly state their model for H2S perception. Do they think there is a receptor and sensory neuron for H2S (not identified in this paper)? If not, what does it mean for there to be a neural circuit mediating the response? To me, it looks more like what is being "perceived" by a neural circuit is ROS-induced toxicity, not H2S itself. 

      To drill down on direct modulation of acute perception, are any of the pathway manipulations used in this paper performed on the timescale of perception? Rotenone for 10 mins is close to that timescale, and in fact it increases speed independently of H2S, consistent with ROSinduced toxicity, not H2S being the signal that induces the behavior. Optogenetic activation of RMG could also be on the acute timescale. Can the authors clarify for how long blue light was on the worms before the start of the assay? Or was it turned on at the same time as video acquisition commenced? This could be evidence that RMG acutely modulates this behavioral response. 

      I feel that the ASJ calcium imaging data should be in the main figure given its importance in revising the original model. 

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable advice.

      As suggested, ASJ calcium imaging data are displayed in the main figure (Figure 2I) (Line 167).

      As both reviewers noted, our initial presentation was not sufficiently clear regarding the mechanism underlying H<sub>2</sub>S avoidance. We agree with the reviewer that H<sub>2</sub>S avoidance is unlikely mediated by direct perception via a H<sub>2</sub>S-specific receptor, but likely arises from acute mitochondrial dysfunction and ROS generation. 

      ROS

      In line with the reviewer’s perspective, our observations point toward mitochondrial ROS transients as the trigger for H<sub>2</sub>S avoidance. First, toxic levels of H<sub>2</sub>S are known to promote ROS production (1). Second, similar to acute H<sub>2</sub>S, brief exposure to rotenone, an ETC complex I inhibitor that rapidly generates mitochondrial ROS, triggers locomotory responses (Figure 7E) (Lines 393-396). Third, regardless of duration, rotenone exposure inhibits H<sub>2</sub>S-evoked avoidance (Figure 7E) (Lines 389-391), likely by preventing or dampening H<sub>2</sub>S-evoked mitochondrial ROS bursts when ETC function is impaired and ROS is already high. Notably, animals subjected to prolonged rotenone exposure, ETC mutants, and quintuple sod mutants, each experiencing chronically high ROS levels, fail to respond to H<sub>2</sub>S and display reduced locomotory activity, presumably due to ROS toxicity and/or activation of stress-adaptive mechanisms (Figure 7). We revised the Results and Discussion to present the model more consistently (main changes lines 387-402 and 535-547).

      Consistent with the activation of stress-responsive pathways, H<sub>2</sub>S exposure alters expression of genes controlled by SKN-1 and HIF-1 signaling. Both pathways are ROS-sensitive and promote adaptation to chronic ROS production (2-4). Their activation, as in egl-9, render these animals insensitive to H<sub>2</sub>S-evoked ROS transients (Figure 5B) (Lines 303-305). Conversely, mutants defective in these adaptive pathways, such as hif-1, still show initial locomotory responses to H<sub>2</sub>S, but rapidly lose activity during prolonged H<sub>2</sub>S exposure (Figure 5D) (Lines 318-319). These observations suggest that HIF-1 pathway is dispensable for initiating the response to H<sub>2</sub> Sevoked ROS transients, but essential for protecting against ROS toxicity.

      ASJ neurons

      ASJ neurons and DAF-11 signaling are required for H<sub>2</sub>S-evoked behavioral responses. However, ASJ does not exhibit an H<sub>2</sub>S-evoked calcium transient. It suggests that ASJ neurons do not directly detect H<sub>2</sub>S (Line 165-169 and 448-457), but likely modulate the circuit responsive to ROS toxicity. This circuit can also be modulated by ambient O<sub>2</sub> levels, the state of O<sub>2</sub> sensing circuit, and nutrient status, in a manner reminiscent of the CO<sub>2</sub> responses (5, 6). 

      O<sub>2</sub> sensing circuit

      Consistent with the reviewer’s view, we favor the model that H<sub>2</sub>S avoidance is likely induced by ROS transients. We believe that the state of O<sub>2</sub> sensing circuit, similar to ASJ neurons, modulates the neural circuit that is responsive to H<sub>2</sub>S-evoked ROS toxicity. This circuit is inhibited as long as O<sub>2</sub> sensing circuit is active. In the RMG optogenetic experiment, channelrhodopsin was photo-stimulated as soon as the assay was initiated at 7% O<sub>2</sub> (Methods Lines 633-634 and Figure legend Lines 1177-1178), therefore RMG remained active throughout the assay including at 7% O<sub>2</sub>. Our interpretation is that RMG activation inhibits this ROSresponsive circuit and H<sub>2</sub>S avoidance. However, these observations do not resolve if H<sub>2</sub>S is acutely and directly perceived. The modulation of H<sub>2</sub>S response by O<sub>2</sub> circuit was discussed between Lines 437-447.

      References

      (1) J. Jia et al., SQR mediates therapeutic effects of H(2)S by targeting mitochondrial electron transport to induce mitochondrial uncoupling. Sci Adv 6, eaaz5752 (2020).

      (2) S. J. Lee, A. B. Hwang, C. Kenyon, Inhibition of Respiration Extends C. elegans Life Span via Reactive Oxygen Species that Increase HIF-1 Activity. Current Biology 20, 2131-2136 (2010).

      (3) C. Lennicke, H. M. Cocheme, Redox metabolism: ROS as specific molecular regulators of cell signaling and function. Mol Cell 81, 3691-3707 (2021).

      (4) D. A. Patten, M. Germain, M. A. Kelly, R. S. Slack, Reactive oxygen species: stuck in the middle of neurodegeneration. J Alzheimers Dis 20 Suppl 2, S357-367 (2010).

      (5) A. J. Bretscher, K. E. Busch, M. de Bono, A carbon dioxide avoidance behavior is integrated with responses to ambient oxygen and food in Caenorhabditis elegans. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 105, 8044-8049 (2008).

      (6) E. A. Hallem, P. W. Sternberg, Acute carbon dioxide avoidance in Caenorhabditis elegans. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 105, 8038-8043 (2008).

  2. drive.google.com drive.google.com
    1. As the responses from chatbots are generated from information collectedby the program rather than the fallible human memory, one may incorrectlyassume that no errors exist. However, there is material risk in relying exclusivelyon AI-generated responses without verification of the generated content.

      The argument the author makes here is reasonable and sound because there are still errors that can be made using AI. There is a common belief that AI is super trusting when it comes to its information, and that is because AI is not a person, so we think it only gives correct and accurate information. Since this is not true, there is still risk associated with AI usage, since its information can be misleading.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This preprint from Shaowei Zhao and colleagues presents results that suggest tumorous germline stem cells (GSCs) in the Drosophila ovary mimic the ovarian stem cell niche and inhibit the differentiation of neighboring non-mutant GSC-like cells. The authors use FRT-mediated clonal analysis driven by a germline-specific gene (nos-Gal4, UASp-flp) to induce GSC-like cells mutant for bam or bam's cofactor bgcn. Bam-mutant or bgcn-mutant germ cells produce tumors in the stem cell compartment (the germarium) of the ovary (Figure 1). These tumors contain non-mutant cells - termed SGC for single-germ cells. 75% of SGCs do not exhibit signs of differentiation (as assessed by bamP-GFP) (Figure 2). The authors demonstrate that block in differentiation in SGC is a result of suppression of bam expression (Figure 2). They present data suggesting that in 73% of SGCs, BMP signaling is low (assessed by dad-lacZ) (Figure 3) and proliferation is less in SGCs vs GSCs. They present genetic evidence that mutations in BMP pathway receptors and transcription factors suppress some of the non-autonomous effects exhibited by SGCs within bam-mutant tumors (Figure 4). They show data that bam-mutant cells secrete Dpp, but this data is not compelling (see below) (Figure 5). They provide genetic data that loss of BMP ligands (dpp and gbb) suppresses the appearance of SGCs in bam-mutant tumors (Figure 6). Taken together, their data support a model in which bam-mutant GSC-like cells produce BMPs that act on nonmutant cells (i.e., SGCs) to prevent their differentiation, similar to what is seen in the ovarian stem cell niche. 

      Strengths:

      (1) Use of an excellent and established model for tumorous cells in a stem cell microenvironment.

      (2) Powerful genetics allow them to test various factors in the tumorous vs nontumorous cells.

      (3) Appropriate use of quantification and statistics.

      We greatly appreciate these comments.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) What is the frequency of SGCs in nos>flp; bam-mutant tumors? For example, are they seen in every germarium, or in some germaria, etc, or in a few germaria?

      This is a great question. Because the SGC phenotype depends on the presence of germline tumor clones, our quantification was restricted to germaria that contained them.These quantification data ("SGCs and/or germline cysts per germarium with germline clones") will be presented in the revised Figure 1.

      (2) Does the breakdown in clonality vary when they induce hs-flp clones in adults as opposed to in larvae/pupae?

      Our initial attempts to induce ovarian hs-flp germline clones by heat-shocking adult flies were unsuccessful, with very few clones being observed. Therefore, we shifted our approach to an earlier developmental stage. Successful induction was achieved by subjecting late-L3/early-pupal animals to a twice-daily heatshock at 37°C for 6 consecutive days (2 hours per session with a 6-hour interval, see Lines 325-329) (Zhao et al., 2018).

      (3) Approximately 20-25% of SGCs are bam+, dad-LacZ+. Firstly, how do the authors explain this? Secondly, of the 70-75% of SGCs that have no/low BMP signaling, the authors should perform additional characterization using markers that are expressed in GSCs (i.e., Sex lethal and nanos).

      These 20-25% of SGCs are bamP-GFP<sup>+</sup> dad-lacZ-, not bam<sup>+</sup> dad-lacZ<sup>+</sup> (see Figure 2C and 3D). They would be cystoblast-like cells that may have initiated a differentiation program toward forming germline cysts (see Lines 109-117). The 70-75% of SGCs that have low BMP signaling exhibit GSC-like properties, including: 1) dot-like spectrosomes; 2) dad-lacZ positivity; 3) absence of bamP-GFP expression. While additional markers would be beneficial, we think that this combination of properties is sufficient to classify these cells as GSC-like. 

      (4) All experiments except Figure 1I (where a single germarium with no quantification) were performed with nos-Gal4, UASp-flp. Have the authors performed any of the phenotypic characterizations (i.e., figures other than Figure 1) with hs-flp?

      Yes, we initially identified the SGC phenotype through hs-flp-mediated mosaic analysis of bam or bgcn mutant in ovaries. However, as noted in our response to Weakness (2), this approach was very labor-intensive. Therefore, we switched to using the more convenient nos::flp system for subsequent experiments. To our observation, there was no difference in the SGC phenotype between these two approaches, confirming that the nos::flp system is a valid and more practical alternative for its study. 

      (5) Does the number of SGCs change with the age of the female? The experiments were all performed in 14-day-old adult females. What happens when they look at a young female (like 2-day-old). I assume that the nos>flp is working in larval and pupal stages, and so the phenotype should be present in young females. Why did the authors choose this later age? For example, is the phenotype more robust in older females? Or do you see more SGCs at later time points?

      These are very good questions. Such time-course analysis data will be provided in revised Figure 1. The SGC phenotype depends on the presence of bam or bgcn mutant germline clones. Germaria from 14-day-old flies contained bigger and more such clones than those from younger flies. This age-dependent increase in clone size and frequency significantly enhanced the efficiency of our quantification (see Lines 129-131). 

      (6) Can the authors distinguish one copy of GFP versus 2 copies of GFP in germ cells of the ovary? This is not possible in the Drosophila testis. I ask because this could impact the clonal analyses diagrammed in Figure 4A and 4G and in 6A and B. Additionally, in most of the figures, the GFP is saturated, so it is not possible to discern one vs two copies of GFP.

      We greatly appreciate this comment. It was also difficult for us to distinguish 1 and 2 copies of GFP in the Drosophila ovary. In Figure 4A-F, to resolve this problem, we used a triplecolor system, in which red germ cells (RFP<sup>+/+</sup> GFP<sup>-/-</sup>) are bam mutant, yellow germ cells (RFP<sup>+/-</sup> GFP<sup>+/-</sup>) are wild-type, and green germ cells (RFP<sup>-/-</sup> GFP<sup>+/+</sup>) are punt or med mutant. In Figure 4G-J, we quantified the SGC phenotype only in black germ cells (GFP<sup>-/-</sup>), which are wild-type (control) or mad mutant.  In Figure 6, we quantified the SGC phenotype only in green germ cells (both GFP<sup>+/+</sup> and GFP<sup>+/-</sup>), all of which are wild-type.

      (7) More evidence is needed to support the claim of elevated Dpp levels in bam or bgcn mutant tumors. The current results with the dpp-lacZ enhancer trap in Figure 5A, B are not convincing. First, why is the dpp-lacZ so much brighter in the mosaic analysis (A) than in the no-clone analysis (B)? It is expected that the level of dpplacZ in cap cells should be invariant between ovaries, and yet LacZ is very faint in Figure 5B. I think that if the settings in A matched those in B, the apparent expression of dpp-lacZ in the tumor would be much lower and likely not statistically significant. Second, they should use RNA in situ hybridization with a sensitive technique like hybridization chain reactions (HCR) - an approach that has worked well in numerous Drosophila tissues, including the ovary.

      We appreciate this critical comment. The settings of immunofluorescent staining and confocal parameters in Figure 5A were the same as those in 5B. To our observation, the level of dpp-lacZ in cap cells was variable across germaria, even within the same ovary, as quantified in Figure 5C. We will provide RNA in situ hybridization data to further strengthen the conclusion that bam or bgcn mutant germline tumors secret BMP ligands.  

      (8) In Figure 6, the authors report results obtained with the bamBG allele. Do they obtain similar data with another bam allele (i.e., bamdelta86)?

      No. Given that bam<sup>BG</sup> was functionally indistinguishable from bam<sup>Δ86</sup> in inducing the SGC phenotype (compare Figure 6F, I with Figure 6-figure supplement 3C), we believe that repeating these experiments with bam<sup>Δ86</sup> would be redundant and would not alter the key conclusion of our study. Thanks for the understanding!

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      While the study by Zhang et al. provides valuable insights into how germline tumors can non-autonomously suppress the differentiation of neighboring wild-type germline stem cells (GSCs), several conceptual and technical issues limit the strength of the conclusions.

      Major points:

      (1) Naming of SGCs is confusing. In line 68, the authors state that "many wild-type germ cells located outside the niche retained a GSC-like single-germ-cell (SGC) morphology." However, bam or bgcn mutant GSCs are also referred to as "SGCs," which creates confusion when reading the text and interpreting the figures. The authors should clarify the terminology used to distinguish between wild-type SGCs and tumor (bam/bgcn mutant) SGCs, and apply consistent naming throughout the manuscript and figure legends.

      We apologize for any confusion. In our manuscript, the term "SGC" is reserved specifically for wild-type germ cells that maintain a GSC-like morphology outside the niche. bam or bgcn mutant germ cells are referred to as GSC-like tumor cells (Lines 87-88), not SGCs.

      (a) The same confusion appears in Figure 2. It is unclear whether the analyzed SGCs are wild-type or bam mutant cells. If the SGCs analyzed are Bam mutants, then the lack of Bam expression and failure to differentiate would be expected and not informative. However, if the SGCs are wild-type GSCs located outside the niche, then the observation would suggest that Bam expression is silenced in these wildtype cells, which is a significant finding. The authors should clarify the genotype of the SGCs analyzed in Figure 2C, as this information is not currently provided.

      The SGCs analyzed in Figure 2A-C are wild-type, GSC-like cells located outside the niche. They were generated using the same genetic strategy depicted in Figures 1C and 1E (with the schematic in Figure 1B). The complete genotypes for all experiments are available in Source data 1. 

      (b) In Figures 4B and 4E, the analysis of SGC composition is confusing. In the control germaria (bam mutant mosaic), the authors label GFP⁺ SGCs as "wild-type," which makes interpretation unclear. Note, this is completely different from their earlier definition shown in line 68.

      The strategy to generate SGCs in Figure 4B-F (with the schematic in Figure 4A) is completely different from that in Figure 1C-F, H, and I (with the schematic in Figure 1B). In Figure 4B-F, we needed to distinguish punt<sup>-/-</sup> (or med<sup>-/-</sup>) with punt<sup>+/-</sup> (or med<sup>+/-</sup>) germ cells. As noted in our response to Reviewer #1’s Weakness (6), it was difficult for us to distinguish 1 and 2 copies of GFP in the Drosophila ovary. Therefore, we chose to use the triple-color system to distinguish these germ cells in Figure 4B-F (see genotypes in Source data 1). 

      (c) Additionally, bam⁺/⁻ GSCs (the first bar in Figure 4E) should appear GFP⁺ and Red⁺ (i.e., yellow). It would be helpful if the authors could indicate these bam⁺/⁻ germ cells directly in the image and clarify the corresponding color representation in the main text. In Figure 2A, although a color code is shown, the legend does not explain it clearly, nor does it specify the identity of bam⁺/⁻ cells alone. Figure 4F has the same issue, and in this graph, the color does not match Figure 4A.

      The color-to-genotype relationships for the schematics in Figures 2A and 4E are provided in Figures 1B and 4A, respectively. Due to the high density of germ cells, it is impractical to label each genotype directly in the images. In contrast to Figure 4E, the colors in Figure 4F do not represent genotypes; instead, blue denotes the percentage of SGCs, and red denotes the percentage of germline cysts, as indicated below the bar chart. 

      (2) The frequencies of bam or bgcn mutant mosaic germaria carrying [wild-type] SGCs or wild-type germ cell cysts with branched fusomes, as well as the average number of wild-type SGCs per germarium and the number of days after heat shock for the representative images, are not provided when Figure 1 is first introduced. Since this is the first time the authors describe these phenotypes, including these details is essential. Without this information, it is difficult for readers to follow and evaluate the presented observations.

      Thanks for this constructive suggestion. We will include such quantification data in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Without the information mentioned in point 2, it causes problems when reading through the section regarding [wild-type] SGCs induced by impairment of differentiation or dedifferentiation. In lines 90-97, the authors use the presence of midbodies between cystocytes as a criterion to determine whether the wild-type GSCs surrounded by tumor GSCs arise through dedifferentiation. However, the cited study (Mathieu et al., 2022) reports that midbodies can be detected between two germ cells within a cyst carrying a branched fusome upon USP8 loss.

      Unlike wild-type cystocytes, which undergo incomplete cytokinesis and lack midbodies, those with USP8 loss undergo complete cell division, with the presence of midbodies (white arrow, Figure 1F’ from Mathieu et al., 2022) as a marker of the late cytokinesis stage (Mathieu et al., 2022). 

      (a) Are wild-type germ cell cysts with branched fusomes present in the bam mutant mosaic germaria? What is the proportion of germaria containing wild-type SGCs versus those containing wild-type germ cell cysts with branched fusomes?

      (b) If all bam mutant mosaic germaria carry only wild-type GSCs outside the niche and no germaria contain wild-type germ cell cysts with branched fusomes, then examining midbodies as an indicator of dedifferentiation may not be appropriate.

      We greatly appreciate this critical comment. bam mutant mosaic germaria indeed contained wild-type germline cysts, as evidenced by an SGC frequency of ~70%, rather than 100% (see Figures 2H, 4F, 4J, 6F, 6I, and Figure 6-figure supplement 3C). Since the SGC phenotype depends on the presence of bam or bgcn mutant germline tumors, we quantified it as “the percentage of SGCs relative to the total number of SGCs and germline cysts that are surrounded by germline tumors” (see Lines 124-129). Quantifying the SGC phenotype as "the percentage of germaria with SGCs" would be imprecise. This is because the presence and number of SGCs were highly variable among germaria with bam mutant germline clones, and a small number of germaria entirely lacked these clones. We will provide the data of "SGCs and/or germline cysts per germarium with germline clones" in revised Figure 1.

      (c) If, however, some germaria do contain wild-type germ cell cysts with branched fusomes, the authors should provide representative images and quantify their proportion.

      Such representative germaria are shown in Figure 2G, 3B, 3C, 6D, 6E, and 6H. The percentage of germline cysts can be calculated by “100% - SGC%”.

      (d) In line 95, although the authors state that 50 germ cell cysts were analyzed for the presence of midbodies, it would be more informative to specify how many germaria these cysts were derived from and how many biological replicates were examined.

      As noted in our response to points a) and b) above, the germ cells surrounded by germline tumors, rather than germarial numbers, are more precise for analyzing the phenotype. For this experiment, we examined >50 such germline cysts via confocal microscopy. As the analysis was performed on a defined cellular population, this sample size should be sufficient to support our conclusion. 

      (4) Note that both bam mutant GSCs and wild-type SGCs can undergo division to generate midbodies (double cells), as shown in Figure 4H. Therefore, the current description of the midbody analysis is confusing. The authors should clarify which cell types were examined and explain how midbodies were interpreted in distinguishing between cell division and differentiation.

      We assayed for the presence of midbodies or not specifically within the germline cysts surrounded by bam mutant tumors, not within the tumors themselves (Lines 94-95). As detailed in Lines 88-97, the absence of midbodies was used as a key criterion to exclude the possibility of dedifferentiation.  

      (5) The data in Figure 5 showing Dpp expression in bam mutant tumorous GSCs are not convincing. The Dpp-lacZ signal appears broadly distributed throughout the germarium, including in escort cells. To support the claim more clearly, the authors should present corresponding images for Figures 5D and 5E, in which dpp expression was knocked down in the germ cells of bam or bgcn mutant mosaic germaria. Showing these images would help clarify the localization and specificity of Dpp-lacZ expression relative to the tumorous GSCs.

      We greatly appreciate this comment. RNA in situ hybridization data will be provided to further strengthen the conclusion that bam or bgcn mutant germline tumors secret BMP ligands.

      (6) While Figure 6 provides genetic evidence that bam mutant tumorous GSCs produce Dpp to inhibit the differentiation of wild-type SGCs, it should be noted that these analyses were performed in a dpp⁺/⁻ background. To strengthen the conclusion, the authors should include appropriate controls showing [dpp⁺/⁻; bam⁺/⁻] SGCs and [dpp⁺/⁻; bam⁺/⁻] germ cell cysts without heat shock (as referenced in Figures 6F and 6I).

      Schematic cartoons in Figure 6A and 6B demonstrate that these analyses were performed in a dpp<sup>+/-</sup> background. Figure 6-figure supplement 1 indicates that dpp<sup>+/-</sup> or gbb<sup>+/-</sup> does not affect GSC maintenance, germ cell differentiation, and female fly fertility. Figure 6C is the control for 6D and 6E, and 6G is the control for 6H, with quantification in 6F and 6I.  We used nos::flp, not the heat shock method, to induce germline clones in these experiments (see genotypes in Source data 1).

      (7) Previous studies have reported that bam mutant germ cells cause blunted escort cell protrusions (e.g., Kirilly et al., Development, 2011), which are known to contribute to germ cell differentiation (e.g., Chen et al., Frontiers in Cell and Developmental Biology, 2022). The authors should include these findings in the Discussion to provide a broader context and to acknowledge how alterations in escort cell morphology may further influence differentiation defects in their model.

      Thanks for teaching us! Such discussion will be included in the revised manuscript.

      (8) Since fusome morphology is an important readout of SGCs vs differentiation. All the clonal analysis should have fusome staining.

      SGC is readily distinguishable from multi-cellular germline cyst based on morphology. In some clonal analysis experiments, fusome staining was not feasible due to technical limitations such as channel saturation or antibody incompatibility. Thanks for the understanding! 

      (9) Figure arrangement. It is somewhat difficult to identify the figure panels cited in the text due to the current panel arrangement.

      The figure panels were arranged to optimize space while ensuring that related panels are grouped in close proximity for logical comparison. We would be happy to consider any specific suggestions for an alternative layout that could improve clarity. Thanks!

      (10) The number of biological replicates and germaria analyzed should be clearly stated somewhere in the manuscript-ideally in the Methods section or figure legends. Providing this information is essential for assessing data reliability and reproducibility.

      Thanks for this constructive suggestion. Such information will be included in figure legends in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Zhang et al. investigated how germline tumors influence the development of neighboring wild-type (WT) germline stem cells (GSC) in the Drosophila ovary. They report that germline tumors inhibit the differentiation of neighboring WT GSCs by arresting them in an undifferentiated state, resulting from reduced expression of the differentiation-promoting factor Bam. They find that these tumor cells produce low levels of the niche-associated signaling molecules Dpp and Gbb, which suppress bam expression and consequently inhibit the differentiation of neighboring WT GSCs non-cell-autonomously. Based on these findings, the authors propose that germline tumors mimic the niche to suppress the differentiation of the neighboring stem cells.

      Strengths:

      This study addresses an important biological question concerning the interaction between germline tumor cells and WT germline stem cells in the Drosophila ovary. If the findings are substantiated, they could provide valuable insights applicable to other stem cell systems.

      We greatly appreciate these comments.

      Weaknesses:

      Previous work from Xie's lab demonstrated that bam and bgcn mutant GSCs can outcompete WT GSCs for niche occupancy. Furthermore, a large body of literature has established that the interactions between escort cells (ECs) and GSC daughters are essential for proper and timely germline differentiation (the differentiation niche). Disruption of these interactions leads to arrest of germline cell differentiation in a status with weak BMP signaling activation and low bam expression, a phenotype virtually identical to what is reported here. Thus, it remains unclear whether the observed phenotype reflects "direct inhibition by tumor cells" or "arrested differentiation due to the loss of the differentiation niche". Because most data were collected at a very late stage (more than 10 days after clonal induction), when tumor cells already dominate the germarium, this question cannot be solved. To distinguish between these two possibilities, the authors could conduct a time-course analysis to examine the onset of the WT GSC-like singlegerm-cell (SGC) phenotype and determine whether early-stage tumor clones with a few tumor cells can suppress the differentiation of neighboring WT GSCs with only a few tumor cells present. If tumor cells indeed produce Dpp and Gbb (as proposed here) to inhibit the differentiation of neighboring germline cells, a small cluster or probably even a single tumor cell generated at an early stage might prevent the differentiation of their neighboring germ cells.

      Thanks for this critical comment. Such time-course analysis data will be provided in revised Figure 1.

      The key evidence supporting the claim that tumor cells produce Gpp and Gbb comes from Figures 5 and 6, which suggest that tumor-derived dpp and gbb are required for this inhibition. However, interpretation of these data requires caution. In Figure 5, the authors use dpp-lacZ to support the claim that dpp is upregulated in tumor cells (Figure 5A and 5B). However, the background expression in somatic cells (ECs and pre-follicular cells) differs noticeably between these panels. In Figure 5A, dpp-lacZ expression in somatic cells in 5A is clearly higher than in 5B, and the expression level in tumor cells appears comparable to that in somatic cells (dpplacZ single channel). Similarly, in Figure 5B, dpp-lacZ expression in germline cells is also comparable to that in somatic cells. Providing clear evidence of upregulated dpp and gbb expression in tumor cells (for example, through single-molecular RNA in situ) would be essential.

      We greatly appreciate this critical comment. In our data, the expression of dpp-lacZ in cap cells was variable across germaria, even within the same ovary, as quantified in Figure 5C. The images in Figures 5A and 5B were selected as representative examples of positive signaling. To directly address the reviewer's point and strengthen our conclusion, we will perform RNA in situ hybridization data in the revised manuscript to visualize the expression of BMP ligands within the bam or bgcn mutant germline tumor cells.

      Most tumor data present in this study were collected from the bam[86] null allele, whereas the data in Figure 6 were derived from a weaker bam[BG] allele. This bam[BG] allele is not molecularly defined and shows some genetic interaction with dpp mutants. As shown in Figure 6E, removal of dpp from homozygous bam[BG] mutant leads to germline differentiation (evidenced by a branched fusome connecting several cystocytes, located at the right side of the white arrowhead). In Figure 6D, fusome is likely present in some GFP-negative bam[BG]/bam[BG] cells. To strengthen their claim that the tumor produces Dpp and Gbb to inhibit WT germline cell differentiation, the authors should repeat these experiments using the bam[86] null allele.

      Although a structure resembling a "branched fusome" is visible in Figure 6E (right of the white arrowhead), it is an artifact resulting from the cytoplasm of GFP-positive follicle cells, which also stain for α-Spectrin, projecting between germ cells of different clones (see the merged image). In both our previous (Zhang et al., 2023) and current studies, bam<sup>BG</sup> was functionally indistinguishable from bam<sup>Δ86</sup> in its ability to block GSC differentiation and induce the SGC phenotype (compare Figure 6F, I with Figure 6-figure supplement 3C). Given this, we believe that repeating the extensive experiments in Figure 6 with the bam<sup>Δ86</sup> allele would be scientifically redundant and would not change the key conclusion of our study. We thank the reviewer for their consideration.

      It is well established that the stem niche provides multiple functional supports for maintaining resident stem cells, including physical anchorage and signaling regulation. In Drosophila, several signaling molecules produced by the niche have been identified, each with a distinct function - some promoting stemness, while others regulate differentiation. Expression of Dpp and Gbb alone does not substantiate the claim that these tumor cells have acquired the niche-like property. To support their assertion that these tumors mimic the niche, the authors should provide additional evidence showing that these tumor cells also express other niche-associated markers. Alternatively, they could revise the manuscript title to more accurately reflect their findings.

      Dpp and Gbb are the key niche signals from cap cells for maintaining GSC stemness. Our work demonstrates that germline tumors can specifically mimic this signaling function, not the full suite of cap cell properties, to create a non-cell-autonomous differentiation block. The current title “Tumors mimic the niche to inhibit neighboring stem cell differentiation” reflects this precise concept: a partial, functional mimicry of the niche's most relevant activity in this context. We feel it is an appropriate and compelling summary of our main conclusion.

      In the Method section, the authors need to provide details on how dpp-lacZ expression levels were quantified and normalized.

      Thanks for this suggestion. Such information will be included in the revised manuscript.

    1. Those with disabilities often find ways to cope with their disability, that is, find ways to work around difficulties they encounter and seek out places and strategies that work for them (whether realizing they have a disability or not). Additionally, people with disabilities might change their behavior (whether intentionally or not) to hide the fact that they have a disability, which is called masking and may take a mental or physical toll on the person masking, which others around them won’t realize. For example, kids who are nearsighted and don’t realize their ability to see is different from other kids will often seek out seats at the front of classrooms where they can see better. As for us two authors, we both have ADHD and were drawn to PhD programs where our tendency to hyperfocus on following our curiosity was rewarded (though executive dysfunction with finishing projects created challenges)[1]. This way of managing disabilities puts the burden fully on disabled people to manage their disability in a world that was not designed for them, trying to fit in with “normal” people.

      Reading this section personally hit very close to home for me. I also have ADHD, and have a tendency to hyperfocus when it comes to art as I can spend hours on a single painting, but then struggle to focus for more than 30 minutes on a homework assignment. I find it very true that people tend to "mask" their disabilities, as almost everyone I know has something they hide in order to fit in. I as well often hide that fact that homework often takes longer for me due to my ADHD. Knowing this, this is why I strongly think it's important we as a society work to becoming more inclusive in all aspects of life!

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      We thank all the reviewers for their comments and suggestions, which has helped in revising the manuscript for a broader audience. Some of the experiments that was suggested by the reviewers has been performed and included in the revised manuscript. The response to reviewers is provided below their comments.

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      MprF proteins exist in many bacteria to synthesize aminoacyl phospholipids that have diverse biological functions, e.g. in the defense against small cationic peptides. They integrate two functions, the aminoacylation of lipids, i.e. the transfer of Lys, Arg or Ala from tRNAs to the head group, and the flipping of these modified lipids to the membrane outer leaflet. The authors present structures of MprF from Pseudomonas aeruginosa and describe these structures in great detail. As MprF enzymes confer antibiotic resistance and are therefore highly important, studying them is significant and interesting. Consequently, their structures have been substantially characterized in recent years, including the publication of the dimeric full-length MpfR from Rhizobium (Song et al., 2021).

      While the structural work appears to be solid and carried out well on the technical part, one big criticism is how the data are presented in the manuscript, how they are analyzed and how they are put into relation to previous work. As structures of Mpfr from Rhizobium have been published, it is not required and rather distracting to explain the methodological details and the structure of Pseudomonas MprF in such great detail. Instead, the manuscript would benefit very strongly from reaching the interesting and novel parts, the comparison with the previous structures, as early as possible. Overall, the manuscript should be substantially shortened to not divert the reader's attention away from the novel parts by drowning them in miniscule description of the structural features such as secondary structure elements or lipid molecule positions where it remains completely unclear what their relevance is to the story and the message of the paper. Finally, during this revision, care should be taken to improve the language and maybe involve a native speaker in doing so.

      It is true that we have described the experimental details of PaMprF in detail including the constructs. We had reconstructed the map of dimeric PaMprF in 2020 but with the publication of the homologues structures (Song et al 2021 and the unpublished Rhizobium etli structure), we had to make sure the PaMprF dimer is not an artefact. Hence, our attempts to rule out this with different constructs and extensive testing with various detergents. Thus, we would like to keep this in the manuscript. We realise the importance of focusing on novel/interesting parts and have reshuffled sections (comparing structures and validating the dimer interface) followed by description of modelling of lipid molecules.

      Even more importantly, since the authors observe a dimer interface which strongly deviates from the previously presented arrangement of another species, the most important thing would be to properly characterize this interface and experimentally validate it, both of which has not been done sufficiently. When also taking into account that there were significant differences in the arrangement of the dimer between their structures in GDN and nanodisc, and that in the GDN structure, the cholesterol backbone of GDN appears to be involved in the interface (there should not be any cholesterol in native bacterial membranes!), there is a realistic chance that the observed dimer is an artefact. If the authors cannot convincingly rule out this possibility, all their conclusions are meaningless.

      The trials with cholesterol hemisuccinate stems more of out of curiosity (we are aware that no cholesterol is present in bacterial membranes). We had started the initial analysis of PaMprF with DDM and by itself it was largely monomeric (unpublished observation and supported by recent publication of PaMprF in DDM – Hankins et al 2025). When we observed that GDN was essential for the stability of the dimer (and not even LMNG), we asked if a combination of CHS with DDM will keep the dimer intact, which didn’t work and GDN was found to be important. The use of CHS for prokaryotic membrane protein studies has now been reported in few different systems and a recent one includes – Caliseki et al., 2025. We would like to keep the observation with CHS in the manuscript, and we have moved this figure to Appendix Fig. S3C.

      In addition, in a recent report on MgtA, a magnesium transporter (Zeinert et al., 2025), it was observed that DDM/LMNG resulted in monomeric enzyme, while GDN resulted in dimeric enzyme albeit, the dimer interface was in the soluble domain. We have added this reference and observation of MgtA in the discussion (page 13, lines 407-411).

      We like to think that the milder GDN tends to keep the membrane proteins or oligomers of membrane proteins more stable but further studies on multiple labile membrane protein systems will be required to substantiate this.

      Hence, while I think that the data presented here would be worth publishing. However, a major drawback is that the authors do not sufficiently analyse, characterise and validate the dimer interface and fail to show that the dimer is biologically relevant.

      Further major points: - The authors always jump between their structures in detergent and nanodisc during all the descriptions, which makes following the story even more difficult. Please first describe one of the structures and then (briefly) discuss relevant similarities and differences afterwards.

      The flow and description of the structures is now modified and the figures have now been rearranged to make it easier to follow. The panel in figure 2 describing the overlay of the GDN and nanodisc is now moved to Appendix Fig. S2B. Thus, figure 2 has only description of salient features of the structures (the interacting residues between the membrane and soluble domain) and the terminal helix.

      • The difference in dimerization between Pseudomonas and Rhizobium is the most interesting and surprising feature (if true) of the new structures. However, it is not really presented as such. The authors should put more emphasis on making clear that this is a complete rotation of the monomers with respect to each other (by how many degrees?) and they should visualize it even more clearly in Figure 4 (and label the figure so that it is possible to understand it without having to read the text or the legend first).

      We thought the colouring of the TM helices should make the difference in interface more obvious (the N and C-terminal TM helices in different colours). Now, we have also labelled the TM helices, so that it is easier to follow (this was also shown in panel E). The rotation is ~180° and this is now mentioned in the figure legend.

      • P. 10: The authors insinuate that only one of the dimer interfaces, either Pseudomonas or Rhizobium could be real, but disregard the possibility that both might be the biologically relevant interfaces of the respective species and that there might have been a switch of interfaces during evolution. They should also mention and discuss this possibility.

      We didn’t imply that one of the interfaces is real but clearly mentioned that it could also be different conformational state (page 7, lines 226-228). In the revised version, we have included a multiple sequence alignment (we had not included in the initial draft as it had been presented in several previous publications). The MSA (Appendix Fig. S6) reveals that neither of the interfaces are highly conserved.

      • Fig. 5G: The authors claim that the higher molecular band that appears in the mutant is a "dimer with aberrant migration" of >250 kDa as opposed to the expected 150 kDa. They should explain how they came to this conclusion and how they can be sure that the band does not correspond to a higher oligomer (trimer or tetramer). They could show, by extraction and purification scheme similar to the wildtype using first LMNG and then GDN, followed by at least a preliminary EM analysis, that the crosslinked mutant MprF is indeed a dimer, or use other biophysical methods to do the same, otherwise this experiment does not show much. Furthermore, they should also include a cysteine mutant in the part of Pseudomonas MprF that would be involved in a Rhizobium-like interface in their crosslinking experiments to check whether they could also stabilize dimers in this case.

      The band of the double mutant after crosslinking (or even without crosslinking) migrates at higher molecular weight than that expected for a dimer, and could potentially be a higher molecular band that a dimer. We also note that in the previous publication by Song et al 2021, the crosslinking of RtMprF also resulted in a higher molecular weight band (shown also by Western blot).

      We now substantiate the dimer of PaMprF with different approaches. We employed blue-native gel and also SDS-PAGE of the purified protein. This clearly shows that the higher molecular band after crosslinking is a dimer (Figure 4B and Fig. EV4D). In particular, in the BN-PAGE, the treatment of mutants with crosslinkers revealed a dimeric band even in the presence of SDS. Further, we have performed cryoEM analysis of the mutants - H386C/F389C and H566C. The images, classes and reconstruction show that the enzyme forms a dimer similar to the WT. Interestingly, we also observe in H566C mutant in nanodisc, a small population that has similar architecture to the Rhizobium-like interface (classes shown in Fig. EV7 and Appendix Fig. S5). This prompted us to look closely at other datasets and it is clear that during the process of reconstitution in nanodisc, we observe both kinds of dimer interface but the PaMprF dimer is predominant. We also observe higher order oligomers (tetramer) in GDN but as only few views are visible, a reconstruction could not be obtained (Appendix Fig. S5). In addition, we also introduced two cysteines on the Rhizobium-like interface and no crosslinking on the membranes were observed (Figure 4B). But it is possible that these chosen mutants are not accessible to the crosslinker. Thus, we conclude that the oligomers of PaMprF is sensitive to nature of detergents and labile.

      • As the question whether the observed interface is real or an artefact is very central to the value of the structural data and the drawn conclusions from it, the authors should make more effort to analyze and try to validate the interface. First, an analysis of interface properties (buried surface area, nature of the interactions, conservation) should be performed for the interface as observed in the Pseudomonas structure but also for a (hypothetical) Rhizobium-like interface of two Pseudomonas monomers (such a model of a dimer should be easily obtainable by AlphaFold using the available Rhizobium structures as models). Then, experimental methods such as FRET or crosslinking-MS would allow to draw more solid conclusions on the distances between potential interface residues. While these experiments are a certain effort, the question whether the dimer interface is real is so central to the paper that it would be worthwhile to make this effort.

      We have included the interface area and nature of interactions in the revised manuscript (page 7, lines 221-223).

      We attempted AlphaFold for predicting the dimeric structure of PaMprF (and included RtMprF also). Some of the attempts from the predictions is summarised in figure 1.

      The prediction of monomer is of high confidence but the oligomer (here dimer) is of low confidence (from ipTM values). Even the prediction for Rhizobium enzyme has low confidence, and gives a complete different architecture (and in some trials with lipids, it gives an inverted or non-physiological dimer). Only when the monomer of PaMprF with lipids and tRNA was given as input (requested by reviewer 2 and described below), it predicts oligomeric structure with some confidence but rest were not informative.

      • As it seems that detergents might disrupt or modify the dimer interface, it might be an alternative to solubilize the protein in a more native environment by polymer-stabilized nanodiscs using DIBMA or similar molecules.

      We have tried to use SMALPs for extraction of PaMprF. We were able to solubilise but unable to enrich the enzyme sufficient for structural studies currently and will require further optimisation.

      • Since parts of the Discussion are mostly repetitions of the Results part and other parts of the Discussion also contain a large extend of structure analysis one would usually rather expect in the Results part instead of the Discussion, the authors should consider condensing both to a combined (and overall much shorter) Results & Discussion section.

      We have rewritten much of the discussion section and removed any repetition from the results sections. We would prefer to keep the results and discussion separate.

      Minor points: - Explain abbreviations the first time they appear in the text, e.g. TTH

      This is now expanded in the first instance

      • Figure labels are very minimalistic. This should be improved, e.g. by putting labels to important structural features that appear in the text, otherwise the figures are not an adequate support for the text.

      The font size for the labels have been increased.

      • Figure 5: Label where the different oligomers run on the gels

      Labelled.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      While the structural work appears to be solid and carried out well on the technical part, one big criticism is how the data are presented in the manuscript, how they are analyzed and how they are put into relation to previous work. As structures of Mpfr from Rhizobium have been published, it is not required and rather distracting to explain the methodological details and the structure of Pseudomonas MprF in such great detail. Instead, the manuscript would benefit very strongly from reaching the interesting and novel parts, the comparison with the previous structures, as early as possible. Overall, the manuscript should be substantially shortened to not divert the reader's attention away from the novel parts by drowning them in miniscule description of the structural features such as secondary structure elements or lipid molecule positions where it remains completely unclear what their relevance is to the story and the message of the paper. Finally, during this revision, care should be taken to improve the language and maybe involve a native speaker in doing so.

      Even more importantly, since the authors observe a dimer interface which strongly deviates from the previously presented arrangement of another species, the most important thing would be to properly characterize this interface and experimentally validate it, both of which has not been done sufficiently. When also taking into account that there were significant differences in the arrangement of the dimer between their structures in GDN and nanodisc, and that in the GDN structure, the cholesterol backbone of GDN appears to be involved in the interface (there should not be any cholesterol in native bacterial membranes!), there is a realistic chance that the observed dimer is an artefact. If the authors cannot convincingly rule out this possibility, all their conclusions are meaningless.

      Hence, while I think that the data presented here would be worth publishing. However, a major drawback is that the authors do not sufficiently analyse, characterise and validate the dimer interface and fail to show that the dimer is biologically relevant.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Shaileshanand J. et al., reported the structures of Multiple Peptide Resistance Factor, MprF, which is a bi-functional enzyme in bacteria responsible for aminoacylation of lipid head groups. The authors purified MprF from Pseudomonas aeruginosa in GDN micelles and nanodiscs, and by applying cryo-EM single particle method, they successfully reached near-atomic resolution, and built corresponding atomic models. By applying structural analysis as well as biochemistry methods, the authors demonstrated dimeric formation of MprF, exhibited the dynamic nature of the catalytic domain of this enzyme, and proposed a possible model on tRNA binding and aminoacylation.

      Major comments 1. In abstract, the authors stated 'Several lipid-like densities are observed in the cryoEM maps, which might indicate the path taken by the lipids and the coupling function of the two functional domains. Thus, the structure of a well characterised PaMprF lays a platform for understanding the mechanism of amino acid transfer to a lipid head group and subsequent flipping across the leaflet that changes the property of the membrane.' Firstly, those lipid-like densities were demonstrated in Fig 3A, since densities of lipids of purified membrane proteins often exist within regions of relatively low local resolution, or low quality, I think more detailed description on how the authors defined which part of the density belongs to lipid and how they acquired the modeling of some of the lipids is required. And the authors modeled phosphatidylglycerol into the GDN MprF, I would require additional experiment, for instance, mass spectrometry over the purified sample, to demonstrate the existence of this specific lipid with the sample. Secondly, regarding the last sentence in the abstract, how these structures lay a platform for further understanding was poorly discussed in both result section and discussion section, since the authors clearly stated 'This cavity perhaps provides a path for holding lipids...', then the statement in the next sentence 'Taken together... the vicinity to the cavities described above indicates the possible path taken by the lipids to enter and exit the enzyme' does not have a reliable evidence to support this conclusion, I would suggest the authors move these statements into discussion section, and elaborate more over this issue since it is an important part in the abstract, or make a more solid proof using other approaches, such as molecular dynamics simulation, to make these statements solid in the result section.

      The membranes of E. coli have predominantly phosphatidyl ethanolamine (PE) and phosphatidyl glycerol (PG) as the next abundant lipid with cardiolipin though smaller in number, plays an important role in functioning of many membrane proteins. In our map, the non-protein density are unambiguous and they can be observed as long density reflective of acyl chains (note that GDN used in purification has no acyl chain) and hence attributed these densities to lipids (Fig. EV4E/F and Figure 5A). Only in few of these densities, head group could be modelled and the identity of the lipid as PG at the dimer interface is based on the requirement of negatively charged lipids for oligomerisation of membrane proteins in general (for example – KcsA tetramer formation requires PG, Marius et al., 2005; Valiyaveetil et al., 2002;2004). It is true that the lipid densities are at the peripheral regions of the map but here only acyl chains have been modelled. Within the membrane domain, one reasonably ordered lipid is observed and by analogy with R. tropici structure, it is possible to build a modified-PG (in PaMprF here ala-PG). However, the density of the head group is not unambiguous (unlike lysine in the R. tropici, whose density stands out) and hence we have modelled it as PG alone. In the methods (page 20, lines 649-650), the identification and modelling of lipid densities is described.

      We agree that mass spectrometry analysis of purified lipids will be useful but it will not be able to tell the position of the lipid in the map (model) and for this we still require a map at higher resolution with better ordered lipids. We have recently built/developed the workflow for native MS and we plan to initiate analysis of PaMprF in the near future, which will provide details for the lipid purified with the enzyme.

      We had initiated molecular dynamics simulation during the review process, and we had included tRNA molecules (shorter version) as we felt the connection between tRNA binding and lipid modification was important. This would have also explained the path taken by lipids (performed by Hankins et al., 2025 in their publication). However, this is likely to require more work (and computing resources) and both mass spectrometry and molecular dynamics will be part of the future work.

      We have rewritten the discussion and changed the last line of the abstract to the following

      “From the structures, the binding modes of tRNA and lipid transport can be postulated and the mobile secondary structural elements in the synthase domain might play a mechanistic role”.

      (in the abstract, lines 24-26).

      Fig 2B, it seems the H566 sidechains were overlapping in the zoom-in figure of distance measurement between H566 residues, to clarify this, authors should either present another figure with rotation, to better demonstrate their relative locations, or swap this zoom-in figure with another figure with rotations. Also, could the authors briefly commenting on why they chose H566 for distance measurement specifically?

      The side chain of residue H566 in the nanodisc model face towards each other at the interface, hence this residue was chosen to shown the proximity.

      Related to previous comment, I see one additional green square in Fig. 2A and an additional green square in Fig. 2B, without any zoom-in images provided on these regions. Besides, they're focusing on two different domains with same color, any particular reason why they're there? If so, please provide the information in figure legends.

      The green squares in panels 2A and 2B are the regions that have been zoomed in panels 2D and 2E showing the interactions of the TTH. This is now made clear in the legend as well as in the figure.

      Related to previous comment, authors should also provide distance measurement over electrostatic interaction sites in Fig. 2A, since distance plays as an important factor in these forces.

      The electrostatic interactions have been included.

      For Fig. 2C, since in Fig. 1, the authors have already indicated the differences between reconstruction of the GDN and nanodisc datasets, this information provided here seems to be a bit abundant, I suggest either move this panel to Fig. 1, to make a visualization on both electron densities as well as atomic models, or move this panel to supplementary figures.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. The panel, figure 2C is moved to Appendix Fig. S2B.

      Fig. 3B, some of the spheres of the lipids were also marked as red, any particular reason why they're red? Do they indicate they're phosphate heads? If so, could the authors provide evidences how they define these orientations of the lipid heads? If not, any particular reason why they're red?

      Although, there are non-protein densities (i.e., density beyond noise that remain after modelling of protein residues and found individually) have been modelled as lipids (In Fig. EV4E, these additional densities are shown). Except for few, all these densities have been modelled only as acyl chain. The lipids modelled with head group and phosphate (that have oxygen) and the fit of the density are shown in both figure 3A and EV4F. Hence, the red (oxygen) is seen in the space filling model of lipids (the density for few lipids are shown, also in the response to the comment below).

      Fig. 3C, the fitted model of lipid and its corresponding density should be added to Fig. S4, to give more detailed view on the quality of the fitting.

      The figure 3 has now been reorganised and the new figure (fig. 5) has only 3 panels. We have provided an enlarged view of the lipids in the membrane domain along with unmodelled densities in 3A. In addition, in fig. EV4F, fit of the lipid to density (select lipids) are shown.

      Fig. 4D and 4E, could the authors also indicate the RMSD values when comparing the differences of RtMprF, PaMprF, ReMprF, this information would be helpful to understand how big of a difference within these three models.

      The RMSD values of the structural comparison is given in the text.

      Fig. 6E, the coloring used for CCA-Ala were similar to the blue part of soluble domain, could the authors change the coloring a bit? Also, for Fig. 6F, I would suggest the authors provide a prediction model, such as using AlphaFold3, of this tRNA interaction site, to further validate this proposed model.

      The colour of the CCA part is changed in the revised figure. Following the suggestion of the reviewer, we used AlphaFold3 to predict the complex formation of PaMprF with tRNA (or shorter version) (Figure 2). As mentioned above in response to reviewer 1, the prediction of dimeric enzyme was of low confidence and this is also reflected when a combination of tRNA, lipids and enzyme sequence are given. Instead of full-length tRNA, if only the CCA end is provided, then the prediction program does position this in the postulated cavity. Only with the monomeric enzyme and tRNA does one get a reasonable model. With respect to the proposed model in 6F, currently we don’t have any evidence and this remains a postulate. In the revised manuscript, we have replaced this with conservation figure, which we thought is more relevant.

      In Supplementary Figures S1 and S3, the angular distribution of maps exhibited preferred orientation to certain extent, 3D FSC estimation should also be supplied for these maps, as an indication of whether the reconstructed densities were affected or not.

      We have included the 3DFSC plots for all the data sets (including the new ones in figures EV1, 2, 5, 6, 7). It is evident that the nanodisc datasets in general are slightly anisotropic.

      For Fig S3B, could the authors switch to another image with better contrast?

      This is now replaced with an image to show the particles.

      Minor comments 1. Fig. 2E and 2F, distance measurement should also be supplied to these two panels.

      We have now included the distance measurement in both the panels, which are now Fig. 2D and 2E.

      Fig. 5D, since in Fig. 4F and 4G already mentioned the skeleton of GDN, this modeling part should be presented before exhibit it in dimer interface, the authors should rearrange the sequence over these three panels.

      The figures in the revised manuscript has been rearranged. Figure 5 (now figure 4) has been modified to include the biochemical analysis (crosslinking studies) and the panel 5D has been removed.

      In Supplementary Figure S3, which density was shown for the PaMprF local resolution estimation result? Authors should provide this information as two maps were shown in this figure.

      The local resolution is for C2 symmetrised map and this is now mentioned in the panel.

      CROSS-REFEREE COMMENTS Both Reviewer #1 and #3 made comments over technical issue, their evaluation over functional aspects of this protein is what I was lacking over my comments, also, their evaluation of the biological narrative, relevance toward previous research is also more insightful. Finally, they offer valuable suggestions on how to adjust the article to make it more readable, and better describing the biological story which I would suggest the authors to pay attention to.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      Significance The authors mainly focused on the structure of MprF in Pseudomonas aeruginosa, this protein is essential for the resistance to cationic antimicrobial peptides. A combination of structural and biochemical analysis provided evidences to the dimeric formation to this enzyme, and the analysis over differences of purified proteins using GDN and nanodisc was particular interesting, which provide new insight regarding the flexible nature of this enzyme, and potentially could be beneficial to the membrane protein community, as it demonstrates the differences in detergent/nanodisc of choice could affect the assembly of the protein of interest. Still, some of the statements in the manuscript, for instance, the assignment of lipids was over-claimed and could be benefited from additional approaches to support the issue. I would suggest some refinement in the discussion section as well as some of the figures.

      My expertise: cryo-EM single particle analysis; cryo-ET; sub-tomo averaging; cryo-FIB;

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Jha and Vinothkumar characterize the cryoEM structure of the alanyl-phosphatidylglycerol producing multiple peptide resistance factor (MprF) of Pseudomonas aeruginosa. MprF proteins mediate the transfer of amino acids from aminoacyl-tRNAs to negatively charged phospholipids resulting in reduced membrane interactions with cationic antimicrobial peptides (produced by the host and competing microorganisms). The phospholipid modifications involve in most cases the transfer of lysine or alanine to phosphatidylglycerol. MprF proteins are membrane proteins consisting of a soluble and hydrophobic domain. Multiple functional studies have shown that the soluble domain of MprF mediates the aminoacylation of phosphatidylglycerol, while the hydrophobic domain mediates the "flipping" of aminoacylated phospholipids across the membrane, a process that is crucial to repulse or prevent the interaction of antimicrobial peptides encountered at the outer leaflet of bacterial membranes. Aside from its role in conferring antimicrobial peptide resistance, other roles of MprF have been described including more physiological roles such as improving growth under acidic conditions. Interestingly, MprF proteins are also found in Gram-negative bacteria which are already protected by an additional membrane that includes LPS. However, in Pseudomonas aeruginosa, MprF confers phenotypes that are similar to those observed in Gram-positive bacteria. Importantly, crystal structures of the soluble domain have led to important insights into aminoacyl phospholipid synthesis and recent studies on the cryoEM structure of Rhizobium tropici have confirmed functional and preliminary structural studies with other MprF proteins. The cryoEM structure from R. tropici confirmed the dimeric structure of MprF and supported a role of the hydrophobic domain in flipping lysyl-phosphatidylglycerol across the membrane. A comparison of the structures of lysyl-phosphatidylglycerol with alanyl-phosphatidylglycerol producing MprFs could reveal new insights into the mechanism of transferring aminoacyl-phospholipids from the soluble domain to the hydrophobic domain and translocation of alanyl- vs lysyl-phosphatidylglycerol across the membrane.

      Major concerns

      1. The study by Jha and Vinothkumar provides the cryoEM structure of an alanyl-phosphatidylglycerol producing MprF protein which is in principle an important milestone in gaining a better understanding of the mechanism of aminoacyl-phospholipid synthesis and flipping, including the potentially different requirements of accommodating different aminoacyl -tRNAs and aminoacyl-phospholipid species. However, this is not addressed. The authors present a "distinct architecture" compared to the structure of R. tropici- MprF, without providing functional insights and the focus of the study shifts to the role of detergents in determining MprF structures via cryoEM. Thus, after fundamental discoveries have been made with crystal structures of the soluble domain and cryoEM structure of R. tropici, this study -while valuable as a resource- seems to offer only an incremental advance in understanding the mode of action of MprF and the potential different requirements for transferring alanyl-phosphatidylglycerol to the hydrophobic domain and flipping across the membrane. The reader is left with the finding of a distinct architecture with no further explanation or hypothesis.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her comments. It is true that the crystal structures of soluble domains of MprF (from 3 species) and the cryoEM structures are now available (two Rhizobium species). However, the cryoEM maps that we have obtained has several salient features including the distinct dimeric interface and the position of the C-terminal helix of the soluble domain. This in particular is important. In the previous study, Hebecker et al 2011 had reported that the terminal helix of PaMprF was important for the activity and the construct without the TM domain can also function in modifying the lipids. The full-length cryoEM map of PaMprF in GDN now provides an idea how this occurs, with the terminal helix buried at the interface. Further, the proposed tRNA binding site (from Hebecker et al 2015, lysine amide bound structure) face other in the dimeric architecture of R. tropici and it is not clear how the full-length tRNA will bind without disrupting the dimer. In contrast, the dimer architecture observed for PaMprF has the tRNA binding site facing away and they can bind to the enzyme without any constraints. We think the mobile/dynamic elements (or secondary structure) of the synthase domain play a major role in interaction with substrates and mechanism. The current structures provide some evidence for this and form the basis of future studies. Instead of cartoon description, we have now included a conservation plot of the molecule in explaining the possible mechanism along with the surface representation in figure 6.

      Differences to R.tropici MprF and other studies are difficult to follow as only a topological map of the Pseudomonas MprF is provided and conserved amino acids that have been shown to be crucial in mediating synthesis and flipping are not highlighted in the text or in the figures, specifically addressed, or discussed. Conserved amino acids in the presented cryoEM structure could provide important mechanistic insights and could address substrate specificity/requirements for aminoacyl phospholipid synthesis, transfer to the hydrophobic domain and flipping.

      The conservation of residues across MprF homologues have been presented in previous published articles and hence, initially we had not included in the manuscript. We have now included multiple sequence alignment of select homologues of MprF highlighting conserved residues (Appendix Fig. S6) as well a figure (Fig. 6F) colouring the molecule with conservation scores with CONSURF. In figure 6F, zoomed in version, we highlight the many of the conserved residues in the synthase domain as they play a role in substrate selectivity.

      Authors characterize an alanyl-phosphatidylglycerol producing MprF but do not detect the lipid in the cryoEM structure. Thus, the potential path taken by alanyl-phosphatidylglycerol remains unclear. Authors model the detected lipids as phosphatidylglycerol, which may be an interesting finding as it would indicate that MprF is generally capable of flipping phospholipids (this is however not discussed). While it is plausible that MprF flippases may be able to flip phosphatidyglycerol it could have a different path and structural requirements. It is also difficult to follow what the suggested pathway of flipping is in the Pseudomonas-MprF flippase (compared to R.tropici). Authors could provide a similar overview figure as in Song et al. and indicate what the potential differences are.

      We modelled phosphatidylglycerol as the lipid as the current density doesn’t allow to model ala-PG ambiguously though it is found in the same position as the lys-PG in the R. tropici maps. The recent in-vitro assay by Hankins et al 2025 shows that PaMprF is able to flip wide range of lipids and we would also like to point out that PG from outer leaflet can be flipped, whose headgroup can be modified at the inner leaflet and flipped back. As shown by Song et al 2021 and Hebecker et al 2011, the specificity for the substrates is in the synthase domain (by mutagenesis and swapping). We don’t think there will be any difference between the lys-PG and Ala-PG path but in our opinion the positional relation between the soluble and membrane domain is the most important and has remained the focus of the manuscript along with the dimeric architecture. The figure 6 in the manuscript is descriptive of this and provides a summary of the structural observation from the presented structures.

      Minor concerns

      • Page 13: the following sentence should be rephrased: "Among the missing links in the current cryoEM maps is the lack of well-ordered density for lipid molecules on the inner leaflet closer to the re-entrant helices but it is reasonable to assume from the cluster of positive charge that there will be lipid molecules and are dynamic. "

      This is has been rephrased.

      • Page 4: Klein et al do not show that the Pseudomonas aeruginosa MprF mediates flipping

      Corrected to reflect only the modification of lipid and not flipping.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      General assessment: see review

      Advance: Minor

      Audience: Specialized

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors report the structure of the human CTF18-RFC complex bound to PCNA. Similar structures (and more) have been reported by the O'Donnell and Li labs. This study should add to our understanding of CTF18-RFC in DNA replication and clamp loaders in general. However, there are numerous major issues that I recommend the authors fix. 

      Strengths: 

      The structures reported are strong and useful for comparison with other clamp loader structures that have been reported lately. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The structures don't show how CTF18-RFC opens or loads PCNA. There are recent structures from other groups that do examine these steps in more detail, although this does not really dampen this reviewer's enthusiasm. It does mean that the authors should spend their time investigating aspects of CTF18-RFC function that were overlooked or not explored in detail in the competing papers. The paper poorly describes the interactions of CTF18-RFC with PCNA and the ATPase active sites, which are the main interest points. The nomenclature choices made by the authors make the manuscript very difficult to read. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary 

      Briola and co-authors have performed a structural analysis of the human CTF18 clamp loader bound to PCNA. The authors purified the complexes and formed a complex in solution. They used cryo-EM to determine the structure to high resolution. The complex assumed an auto-inhibited conformation, where DNA binding is blocked, which is of regulatory importance and suggests that additional factors could be required to support PCNA loading on DNA. The authors carefully analysed the structure and compared it to RFC and related structures. 

      Strength & Weakness 

      Their overall analysis is of high quality, and they identified, among other things, a human-specific beta-hairpin in Ctf18 that flexibly tethers Ctf18 to Rfc2-5. Indeed, deletion of the beta-hairpin resulted in reduced complex stability and a reduction in a primer extension assay with Pol ε. This is potentially very interesting, although some more work is needed on the quantification. Moreover, the authors argue that the Ctf18 ATP-binding domain assumes a more flexible organisation, but their visual representation could be improved. 

      The data are discussed accurately and relevantly, which provides an important framework for rationalising the results. 

      All in all, this is a high-quality manuscript that identifies a key intermediate in CTF18dependent clamp loading. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      CTF18-RFC is an alternative eukaryotic PCNA sliding clamp loader that is thought to specialize in loading PCNA on the leading strand. Eukaryotic clamp loaders (RFC complexes) have an interchangeable large subunit that is responsible for their specialized functions. The authors show that the CTF18 large subunit has several features responsible for its weaker PCNA loading activity and that the resulting weakened stability of the complex is compensated by a novel beta hairpin backside hook. The authors show this hook is required for the optimal stability and activity of the complex. 

      Relevance: 

      The structural findings are important for understanding RFC enzymology and novel ways that the widespread class of AAA ATPases can be adapted to specialized functions. A better understanding of CTF18-RFC function will also provide clarity into aspects of DNA replication, cohesion establishment, and the DNA damage response. 

      Strengths: 

      The cryo-EM structures are of high quality enabling accurate modelling of the complex and providing a strong basis for analyzing differences and similarities with other RFC complexes. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The manuscript would have benefitted from more detailed biochemical analysis to tease apart the differences with the canonical RFC complex. 

      I'm not aware of using Mg depletion to trap active states of AAA ATPases. Perhaps the authors could provide a reference to successful examples of this and explain why they chose not to use the more standard practice in the field of using ATP analogues to increase the lifespan of reaction intermediates. 

      Overall appraisal: 

      Overall the work presented here is solid and important. The data is sufficient to support the stated conclusions and so I do not suggest any additional experiments. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      We thank the reviewer for their positive comments and for their thorough review. All raised points have been addressed below.

      Major points 

      (1) The nomenclature used in the paper is very confusing and sometimes incorrect. The authors refer to CTF18 protein as "Ctf18", and the entire CTF18-RFC complex as "CTF18". This results in massive confusion because it is hard to ascertain whether the authors are discussing the individual subunits or the entire complex. Because these are human proteins, each protein name should be fully capitalized (i.e. CTF18, RFC4 etc). The full complex should be referred to more clearly with the designation CTF18-RFC or CTF18-RLC (RFC-like complex). Also, because the yeast and human clamp loader complexes use the same nomenclature for different subunits, it would be best for the authors to use the "A, B, C, D, E subunit" nomenclature that has been standard in the field for the past 20 years. Finally, the authors try to distinguish PCNA subunits by labeling them "PCNA2" or "PCNA1" (see Page 8 lines 180,181 for an example). This is confusing because the names of the RFC subunits have similar formats (RFC2, RFC3, RFC4, etc). In the case of RFC this denotes unique genes, whereas PCNA is a homotrimer. Could the authors think of another way to denote the different subunits, such as super/subscript? PCNA-I, PCNA-II, PCNA-III? 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the confusing nomenclature. Following the referee suggestion, we now refer to the CTF18 full complex as “CTF18-RFC”. We prefer keeping the nomenclature used for CTFC18 subunits as RFC2, RFC3 etc., as recently used in Yuan et al, Science, 2024. However, we followed the referee’s suggestion for PCNA subunits, now referred to as PCNA-I, PCNA-II and PCNA-III.

      (2) I believe that the authors are over-interpreting their data in Figure 1. The claim that "less sharp definition" of the map corresponding to the AAA+ domain of Ctf18 supports a relatively high mobility of this subunit is largely unsubstantiated. There are several reasons why one could get varying resolution in a cryo-EM reconstruction, such as compositional heterogeneity, preferred orientation artifacts, or how the complex interacts with the air-water interface. If other data were presented that showed this subunit is flexible, this evidence would support that data but cannot alone as justification for subunit mobility. Along these lines, how was the buried surface area (2300 vs 1400 A2) calculated? Is this the total surface area or only the buried surface area involving the AAA+ domains? It is surprising that these numbers are so different considering that the subunits and complexes look so similar (Figures 1c and 2b). 

      We respectfully disagree with the suggestion that our interpretation of local flexibility in the AAA+ domain of Ctf18 is overreaching. Several lines of evidence support this interpretation. First, compositional heterogeneity is unlikely, as the A′ domain of Ctf18 is well-resolved and forms stable interactions with RFC3, indicating that Ctf18 is consistently incorporated into the complex. Second, preferred orientation artifacts are excluded, as the particle distribution shows excellent angular coverage (Fig. S9a). Third, we now include a 3D variability analysis (3DVA; Supplementary Video 1), which reveals local conformational heterogeneity centered around the AAA+ domain of Ctf18, consistent with intrinsic flexibility.

      Regarding the buried surface area values, the reported numbers refer specifically to the interfaces between the AAA+ domain of Ctf18 and RFC2, and are derived from buried surface area calculations performed with PISA. The smaller interface (~1400 Ų) compared to RFC1–RFC2 (~2300 Ų) reflects low sequence identity (~26%) and divergent structural features, including the absence of conserved elements such as the canonical PIP-box in Ctf18. We have clarified and expanded this explanation in the revised manuscript (Page 7).

      (3) The authors very briefly discuss interactions with PCNA and how the CTF18-RFC complex differs from the RFC complex. This is amongst the most interesting results from their work, but also not well-developed. Moreover, Figure 3D describing these interactions is extremely unclear. I feel like this observation had potential to be interesting, but is largely ignored by the authors. 

      We thank the referee for pointing this out. We have expanded the section describing the interactions of CTF18-RFC and PCNA (Page 9 in the new manuscript), and made a new panel figure with further details (Fig. 3D).  

      (4) The authors make the observation that key ATP-binding residues in RFC4 are displaced and incompatible with nucleotide binding in their CTF18-RFC structure compared to the hRFC structure. This should be a main-text figure showing these displacements and how it is incompatible with ATP binding. Again, this is likely an interesting finding that is largely glossed over by the authors. 

      We now discuss this feature in detail (Pag 11 in the new manuscript), and added two figure insets (Fig. 4c) describing the incompatibility of RFC4 with nucleotide binding.

      (5) The authors claim that the work of another group (citation 50) "validate(s) our predictions regarding the significant similarities between CTF18-RFC and canonical RFC in loading PCNA onto a ss/dsDNA junction." However, as far as this reviewer can tell the work in citation 50 was posted online before the first draft of this manuscript appeared on biorxiv, so it is dubious to claim that these were "predictions." 

      We agree with the referee about this claim. We have now revised the text as follows:

      “While our work was being finalized, several cryo-EM structures of human CTF18-RFC bound to PCNA and primer/template DNA were reported by another group (He et al, PNAS, 2024). These findings are consistent with the distinct features of CTF18-RFC observed in our structures and independently support the notion of significant mechanistic similarity between CTF18-RFC and canonical RFC in loading PCNA onto a ss/dsDNA junction”.

      (6) The authors use a primer extension assay to test the effects of truncating the Nterminal beta hairpin of CTF18. However, this assay is only a proxy for loading efficiency and the observed effects of the mutation are rather subtle. The authors could test their hypothesis more clearly if they performed an ATPase assay or even better a clamp loading assay. 

      We thank the referee for this valuable suggestion. In response, we have performed clamp loading assays comparing the activities of human RFC, wild-type CTF18-RFC, and the β-hairpin–truncated CTF18-RFC mutant. The results, now presented in Fig. 6 and Table 1 of the revised manuscript, clearly show that truncation of the N-terminal βhairpin results in a slower rate of PCNA loading. We propose that this reduced loading rate likely contributes to the diminished Pol ε–mediated DNA synthesis observed in the primer extension assays.

      Minor points 

      (1) Page 3 line 53 the introduction suggests that ATP hydrolysis prompts clamp closure. While this may be the case, to my knowledge all recent structural work shows that closure can occur without ATP hydrolysis. It may be better to rephrase it to highlight that under normal loading conditions, ATP hydrolysis occurs before clamp closure. 

      The text now reads (Page 3): 

      “DNA binding prompts the closure of the clamp and hydrolysis of ATP induces the concurrent disassembly of the closed clamp loader from the sliding clamp-DNA complex, completing the cycle necessary for the engagement of the replicative polymerases to start DNA synthesis.”

      (2) Page 3 line 60, I do not see how the employment of alternative loaders highlights the specificity of the loading mechanism - would it not be possible for multiple loaders to have promiscuous clamp loading? 

      We thank the referee for this comment. The text now reads (Page 3):

      “However, eukaryotes also employ alternative loaders (20), including CTF18-RFC (6, 21-24), which likely use a conserved loading mechanism but are functionally specialized through specific protein interactions and context-dependent roles in DNA replication.”

      (3) Page 4 line 75 could you please cite a study that shows Ctf8 and Dcc1 bind to the Ctf18 C-terminus and that a long linker is predicted to be flexible? 

      Two references have been added (Stokes et al, NAR, 2020 and Grabarczyk et al, Structure, 2018)

      (4) Figure 2A has the N-terminal region of Ctf18 as bound to RFC3 but should likely be labeled as bound to RFC5. This caused significant confusion while trying to parse this figure. Further, the inclusion of "X" as a sequence - does this refer to a sequence that was not buildable in the cryo-EM map? I would be surprised that density immediately after the conserved DEXX box motif is unbuildable. If this is the case, it should be clearly stated in the figure legend that "X" denotes an unbuildable sequence. For the conserved beta-hairpin in the sequence, could the authors superimpose the AlphaFold prediction onto their structure? It would be more informative than just looking at the sequence. 

      We apologize for this confusion. The error in Figure 2A has been corrected. The figure caption now explicitely says that “X” refers to amino acid residues in the sequence which were not modelled. A superposition of the cryo-EM model of the N-terminal Beta hairpin in human Ctf18 and AlphaFold predictions for this feature in drosophila and yeast Ctf18 is now presented in Figure 2A.

      (5) Page 8 line 168, the use of the term "RFC5" here feels improper, since the "C" subunit is not RFC5 in all lower eukaryotes (see comment above about nomenclature). For instance, in S cerevisiae, the C subunit is RFC3. I would expect this interaction to be maintained in all C subunits, not all RFC5 subunits. 

      The text now reads (Page 8):

      “Therefore, lower eukaryotes may use a similar b-hairpin motif to bind the corresponding subunit of the RFC-module complex (RFC5 in human, Rfc3 in S. cerevisiae), emphasizing its importance.”  

      (6) Page 10 line 228, the authors claim that hydrolysis is dispensable at the Ctf18/RFC2 interface based on evidence from RFC1/RFC2 interface, by analogy that this is the "A/B" interface in both loaders. However, the wording makes it sound as if the cited data were collected while studying Ctf18 loaders. The authors should clarify this point. 

      The text has been modified as follows (Pag 11): 

      “Prior research has indicated that hydrolysis at the large subunit/RFC2 interface is not essential for clamp loading by various loaders (48-51), while the others are critical for the clamp-loading activity of eukaryotic RFCs. “

      (7) Page 11 line 243/244 the authors introduce the separation pin. Could they clarify whether Ctf18 contains any aromatic residues in this structural motif that would suggest it serves the same functional purpose? Also, the authors highlight this is similar to yeast RFC, which makes it sound like this is not conserved in human RFC, but the structural motif is also conserved in human RFC. 

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful comment. We have clarified in the revised text (Page 12) that the separation pin is conserved not only in yeast RFC but also in human RFC, and now note that human Ctf18 also harbors aromatic residues at the corresponding positions. This observation is supported by the new panel in Figure 4e.

      Minutia 

      (1) Page 2 line 37 please remove the word "and" before PCNA. 

      This has been corrected.

      (2) Please define AAA+ and update the language to clarify that not all pentameric AAA+ ATPases are clamp loaders. 

      AAA+ has been now defined (Page 3).

      (3) Page 4 line 86 Given the relatively weak interaction of Pol ε. 

      This has been corrected.

      (4) Page 8 line 204 the authors likely mean "leucine" and not "lysine". 

      We thank the reviewer for catching this. The error has been corrected.

      (5) Page 14 line 300, the authors claim that CTF18 utilizes three subunits but then list four. 

      We have corrected this.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      We thank the reviewer for their positive comments and valuable suggestions. The points raised by the referee have been addressed below.

      Major point: 

      (1) Please quantify Figure 6 and S9 from 3 independent repeats and determine the standard deviation to show the variability of the Ctf18 beta hairpin deletion.  The authors suggest that a suboptimal Ctf18 complex interaction with PCNA impacts the stability of the complex, but do not test this hypothesis. Could the suboptimal PIP motif in Ctf18 be changed to an improved motif and the impact tested in the primer extension assay? Although not essential, it would be a nice way to explore the mechanism. 

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. However, we note that Figure 6b (now 7b) already presents the quantification of the primer extension assay from three independent replicates, with error bars showing standard deviations, and includes the calculated rate of product accumulation. These data clearly indicate a 42% reduction in primer synthesis rate upon deletion of the Ctf18 β-hairpin.

      We agree that we do not provide direct evidence of impaired complex stability upon deletion of the Ctf18 β-hairpin. However, the 2D classification of the cryo-EM dataset (Figure S9) shows a marked reduction in the number of particles corresponding to intact CTF18-RFC–PCNA complexes in the β-hairpin deletion sample, with the majority of particles corresponding to free PCNA. This contrasts with the wild-type dataset, where complex particles are predominant. These findings indirectly suggest that deletion of the β-hairpin compromises the stability or assembly of the clamp-loader–clamp complex.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion to mutate the weak PIP-box of Ctf18. While an interesting direction, we instead sought to directly test the mechanism by performing quantitative clamp loading assays. These assays revealed a significant reduction in the rate of PCNA loading by the CTF18<sup>Δ165–194</sup>-RFCmutant (Figure 6), supporting the conclusion that the β-hairpin contributes to productive PCNA loading. This loading delay likely underlies the reduced rate of primer extension observed in the Pol ε assay (Figure 7), consistent with impaired formation of processive polymerase– clamp complexes.

      (2) I did not see the method describing how the 2D classes were quantified to evaluate the impact of the Ctf18 beta hairpin deletion on complex formation. Please add the relevant information. 

      The relevant information has been added to the Method section:

      “For quantification of complex stability, the number of particles contributing to each 2D class was extracted from the classification metadata (Datasets 1 and 3). All classes showing isolated PCNA rings were summed and compared to the total number of particles in classes representing intact CTF18-RFC–PCNA complexes. This analysis was performed for both wild-type and β-hairpin deletion mutant datasets. Notably, no 2D classes corresponding to free PCNA were observed in the wild-type dataset, whereas in the mutant dataset, a substantial fraction of particles corresponded to isolated PCNA, suggesting reduced stability of the mutant complex.”

      Minor point: 

      (1) Page 2, line 25. Detail what type of mobility is referred to. Do you mean flexibility in the EM-map? 

      We have clarified this. The text now reads:

      “The unique RFC1 (Ctf18) large subunit of CTF18-RFC, which based on the cryo-EM map shows high relative flexibility, is anchored to PCNA through an atypical low-affinity PIP box”

      (2) Page 4, line 82. Please introduce CMGE, or at least state what the abbreviation stands for. 

      This has been addressed.

      (3) Page 4, line 89. Specify that the architecture of the HUMAN CTF18-RFC module is not known, as the yeast one has been published. 

      At the time our study was initiated, the architecture of the human CTF18-RFC module was unknown. A structure of the human complex was published by another group during the final stages of our work and is now properly acknowledged in the Discussion.

      (4) Page 6. Is it possible to illustrate why the autoinhibited state cannot bind to DNA? A visual representation would be nice. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Figure 4b in the original manuscript already illustrates why the autoinhibited, overtwisted conformation of the CTF18-RFC pentamer cannot accommodate DNA. In this state, the inner chamber of the loader is sterically occluded, precluding the binding of duplex DNA.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      We thank Reviewer #3 for their constructive feedback and positive overall assessment of our work.

      We also thank the reviewer for their remarks on the use of Mg depletion to halt hydrolysis. Magnesium is an essential cofactor for ATP hydrolysis, and its depletion is expected to effectively prevent catalysis by destabilizing the transition state, possibly more completely than the use of slowly hydrolysable analogues such as ATPγS. We have recently employed Mg<sup>²+</sup> depletion to successfully trap a pre-hydrolytic intermediate in a replicative AAA+ helicase engaged in DNA unwinding (Shahid et al., Nature, 2025). This precedent supports the rationale for our choice, and the reference has now been included in the revised manuscript.

      I think the authors deposited the FSC curve for the +Mg structure in the -Mg structure PDB/EMDB entry according to the validation report. 

      We thank the reviewer for their careful inspection of the deposition materials. The discrepancy in the deposited FSC curve has now been corrected, and the appropriate FSC curves have been assigned to the correct PDB/EMDB entries.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      This paper measures the positioning and diffusivity of RNaseE-mEos3.2 proteins in E. coli as a function of rifampicin treatment, compares RNaseE to other E. coli proteins, and measures the effect of changes in domain composition on this localization and motion. The straightforward study is thoroughly presented, including very good descriptions of the imaging parameters and the image analysis/modeling involved, which is good because the key impact of the work lies in presenting this clear methodology for determining the position and mobility of a series of proteins in living bacteria cells. 

      Thank you for the nice summary and positive feedback on the descriptions and methodology. 

      My key notes and concerns are listed below; the most important concerns are indicated with asterisks. 

      (1) The very start of the abstract mentions that the domain composition of RNase E varies among species, which leads the reader to believe that the modifications made to E. coli RNase E would be to swap in the domains from other species, but the experiment is actually to swap in domains from other E. coli proteins. The impact of this work would be increased by examining, for instance, RNase E domains from B. subtilis and C. crescentus as mentioned in the introduction. 

      Thank you for the suggestions. We agree that the sentence may convey an unintended expectation. Our original intention was to note the presence and absence of certain domains of RNase E (e.g. membrane-binding motif and CTD) vary across species, rather than the actual sequence variations. To avoid any misinterpretation, we decided to remove the sentence from the abstract. Using the domains of B. subtilis and C. crescentus RNase E in E. coli is a very interesting suggestion, but we will leave that for a future study. 

      (2) Furthermore, the introduction ends by suggesting that this work will modulate the localization, diffusion, and activity of RNase E for "various applications", but no applications are discussed in the discussion or conclusion. The impact of this work would be increased by actually indicating potential reasons why one would want to modulate the activity of RNase E. 

      Thank you for this suggestion. For example, an E. coli strain expressing membranebound RNase E without CTD can help stabilize mRNAs and enhance protein expression. In fact, this idea was used in a commercial BL21 cell line (Invitrogen’s One Shot BL21 Star), to increase the yield of protein expression. We also think that environmentally modulated MB% of RNase E can be useful for controlling the mRNA half-lives and protein expression levels in different conditions. We discussed these ideas at the end of the Discussion.

      (3) Lines 114 - 115: "The xNorm histogram of RNase E shows two peaks corresponding to each side edge of the membrane": "side edge" is not a helpful term. I suggest instead: "...corresponding to the membrane at each side of the cell" 

      Thank you. We made the suggested change.

      (4) A key concern of this reviewer is that, since membrane-bound proteins diffuse more slowly than cytoplasmic proteins, some significant undercounting of the % of cytoplasmic proteins is expected due to decreased detectability of the faster-moving proteins. This would not be a problem for the LacZ imaging where essentially all proteins are cytoplasmic, but would significantly affect the reported MB% for the intermediate protein constructs. How is this undercounting considered and taken into account? One could, for instance, compare LacZ vs. LacY (or RNase E) copy numbers detected in fixed cells to those detected in living cells to estimate it.  

      Thank you for raising this point and suggesting a possible way to address this. We compared the number of tracks for mEos3.2-fused proteins in live vs fixed cells and tested the undercounting effect of cytoplasmic molecules. We compared WT RNase E molecules in live and fixed cells and found that there are about 50% lower molecules detected in the fixed cells, which agrees with the expectation that fluorescent proteins lose their signal upon fixation. Similarly, cytoplasmic RNase E (RNase E ΔMTS) copy number was also ~50% less in the fixed cells compared to live cells. If cytoplasmic molecules were undercounted compared membrane-bound molecules in live cells, fixation would reduce the copy number less than 50%. The comparable ratio of 50% indicates that the undercounting issue is not significant. This control analysis is provided in Figure S1B-C, and we made corresponding textual change in the result section as below:

      For this analysis, we first confirmed that proteins localized on the membrane and in the cytoplasm are detected with equal probability, despite differences in their mobilities (Fig. S1B-C). 

      (5) The rifampicin treatment study is not presented well. Firstly, it is found that LacY diffuses more rapidly upon rifampicin treatment. This change is attributed to changes in crowding at the membrane due to mRNA. Several other things change in cells after adding rif, including ATP levels, and these factors should be considered. More importantly, since the change in the diffusivity of RNaseE is similar to the change in diffusivity of LacY, then it seems that most of the change in RNaseE diffusion is NOT due to RNaseE-mRNAribosome binding, but rather due to whatever crowding/viscosity effects are experienced by LacY (along these lines: the error reported for D is SEM, but really should be a confidence interval, as in Figure 1, to give the reader a better sense of how different (or similar) 1.47 and 1.25 are). 

      We agree with the reviewer that upon rifampicin treatment, RNase E’s D increases to a similar extent as that of LacY. Hence, the increase likely arises from a factor common to both proteins. We have added the reviewer’s suggested interpretation as a possible explanation in the manuscript as below. 

      The similar fold change in D<sub>RNE</sub> and D<sub>LacY</sub> upon rif treatment suggests that the change in RNE diffusion may largely be attributed to physical changes in the intracellular environment (such as reduced viscosity or macromolecular crowding[41,42]), rather than a loss of RNA-RNE interactions.

      As requested by the reviewer, we have provided confidence intervals for our D values in Table S8. Because these intervals are very narrow, we chose to present the SEM as the error metric for D and have also reported the corresponding errors for the fold-change values whenever we describe the fold differences between D values. 

      (6) Lines 185-189: it is surprising to me that the CTD mutants both have the same change in D (5.5x and 5.3x) relative to their full-length counterparts since D for the membranebound WT protein should be much less sensitive to protein size than D for the cytoplasmic MTS mutant. Can the authors comment? 

      Perhaps the reviewer understood that these differences are the ratios between +/-CTD (e.g. WT RNE vs ΔCTD). However, the differences we mentioned were from membrane-bound vs cytoplasmic versions of RNase E with comparable sizes (e.g. WT RNase E vs RNase E ΔMTS). We modified text and added a summary sentence at the end of the paragraph to clarify the point.

      We found that D<sub>ΔMTS</sub> is ~5.5 times that of D<sub>RNE</sub> (Fig. 3B). [...] Together, these results suggest that the membrane binding reduces RNE mobility by a factor of 5.

      That being said, we also realized a similar fold difference between +/-CTD. Specifically, WT RNE vs RNE ΔCTD (both membrane-bound) show a ~4.1-fold difference and RNE ΔMTS vs RNE ΔMTS ΔCTD (both cytoplasmic) show ~3.9-fold difference. We do not currently do not have a clear explanation for this pattern. Given that these two pairs have a similar change in mass, we speculate that the relationship between D and molecular mass may be comparable for membrane-bound and free-floating RNE variants. 

      (7) Lines 190-194. Again, the confidence intervals and experimental uncertainties should be considered before drawing biological conclusions. It would seem that there is "no significant change" in the rhlB and pnp mutants, and I would avoid saying "especially for ∆pnp" when the same conclusion is true for both (one shouldn't say 1.04 is "very minute" and 1.08 is just kind of small - they are pretty much the same within experiments like this). 

      Thank you for raising this point, which we fully agree with. That being said, we decided to remove results related to the degradosome proteins to improve the flow of the paper. We are preparing another paper related to the RNA degradosome complex formation. 

      (8) Lines 221-223 " This is remarkable because their molecular masses (and thus size) are expected to be larger than that of MTS" should be reconsidered: diffusion in a membrane does not follow the Einstein law (indeed lines 223-225 agree with me and disagree with lines 221-223). (Also the discussion paragraph starting at line 375). Rather, it is generally limited by the interactions with the transmembrane segments with the membrane. So Figure 3D does not contain the right data for a comparison, and what is surprising to me is that MTS doesn't diffuse considerably faster than LacY2. 

      We agree with the reviewer’s point that diffusion in a membrane does not follow the Stokes-Einstein law. That is why we introduced Saffman’s model. However, even in this model, proteins of larger size (or mass) should be slower than smaller size (a reason why we presented Figure 3D, now 4D). In other words, both Einstein and Saffman models predict that larger particles diffuse slower, although the exact scaling relationship differs between two models. Here, we assume that mass is related to the size. Contrary to Saffman’s model for membrane proteins, LacY2 diffuses faster than MTS despite of large size. Using MD simulations, we showed that this discrepancy can be explained by different interaction energies as the reviewer mentioned. This analysis further demonstrates that the size is not the only factor to consider protein diffusion in the membrane. We edited the paragraph to clarify the expectations and our interpretations.

      According to the Stokes-Einstein relation for diffusion in simple fluids[49] and the Saffman-Delbruck diffusion model for membrane proteins, D decreases as particle size increases, albeit with different scaling behaviors. […] Thus, if size (or mass) were the primary determinant of diffusion, LacY2 and LacY6 would diffuse more slowly than the smaller MTS. The observed discrepancy instead implies that D may be governed by how each motif interacts with the membrane. For example, the way that TM domains are anchored to the membrane may facilitate faster lateral diffusion with surrounding lipids. 

      (9) The logical connection between the membrane-association discussion (which seems to ignore associations with other proteins in the cell) and the preceding +/- rifampicin discussion (which seeks to attribute very small changes to mRNA association) is confusing.

      Thank you for raising this point. We re-arranged the second result section to present diffusion due to membrane binding first before rifampicin. Furthermore, we stated our hypothesis and expectations in the beginning of the results section. This addition will legitimate our logic flow.

      (10) Separately, the manuscript should be read through again for grammar and usage. For instance, the title should be: "Single-molecule imaging reveals the *roles* of *the* membrane-binding motif and *the* C-terminal domain of RNase E in its localization and diffusion in Escherichia coli". Also, some writing is unwieldy, for instance, "RNase E's D" would be easier to read if written as D_{RNaseE}. (underscore = subscript), and there is a lot of repetition in the sentence structures. 

      Thank you for catching grammar mistakes. We went through extensive proofreading to avoid these mistakes and also used simple notation suggested by the reviewer, such as D<sub>RNE</sub>, to make it easier to read. Thank you again for your suggestions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      Troyer and colleagues have studied the in vivo localisation and mobility of the E.coli RNaseE (a protein key for mRNA degradation in all bacteria) as well as the impact of two key protein segments (MTS and CTD) on RNase E cellular localisation and mobility. Such sequences are important to study since there is significant sequence diversity within bacteria, as well as a lack of clarity about their functional effects. Using single-molecule tracking in living bacteria, the authors confirmed that >90% of RNaseE localised on the membrane, and measured its diffusion coefficient. Via a series of mutants, they also showed that MTS leads to stronger membrane association and slower diffusion compared to a transmembrane motif (despite the latter being more embedded in the membrane), and that the CTD weakens membrane binding. The study also rationalised how the interplay of MTS and CTD modulate mRNA metabolism (and hence gene expression) in different cellular contexts. 

      Strengths: 

      The study uses powerful single-molecule tracking in living cells along with solid quantitative analysis, and provides direct measurements for the mobility and localisation of E.coli RNaseE, adding to information from complementary studies and other bacteria. The exploration of different membrane-binding motifs (both MTS and CTD) has novelty and provides insight on how sequence and membrane interactions can control function of protein-associated membranes and complexes. The methods and membrane-protein standards used contribute to the toolbox for molecular analysis in live bacteria. 

      Thank you for the nice summary of our work and positive comments about the paper’s strengths.

      Weaknesses: 

      The Results sections can be structured better to present the main hypotheses to be tested. For example, since it is well known that RNase E is membrane-localised (via its MTS), one expects its mobility to be mainly controlled by the interaction with the membrane (rather than with other molecules, such as polysomes and the degradosome). The results indeed support this expectation - however, the manuscript in its current form does not lay down the dominant hypothesis early on (see second Results chapter), and instead considers the rifampicin-addition results as "surprising"; it will be best to outline the most likely hypotheses, and then discuss the results in that light. 

      Thank you for this comment. We addressed this point by stating our main hypothesis from the beginning of the results section. We also agree with the reviewer that the membrane binding effect should be discussed first; hence, we re-arranged the result section. In the revised manuscript, we discuss the effect of membrane binding on diffusion first, followed by rif effects.

      Similarly, the authors should first discuss the different modes of interaction for a peripheral anchor vs a transmembrane anchor, outline the state of knowledge and possibilities, and then discuss their result; in its current version, the ms considers the LacY2 and LacY6 faster diffusion compared to MTS "remarkable", but considering the very different mode of interaction, there is no clear expectation prior to the experiment. In the same section, it would be good to see how the MD simulations capture the motion of LacY6 and LacY12, since this will provide a set of results consistent with the experimental set. 

      Thank you for pointing this out. In fact, there is little discussion in the literature about the different modes of interaction for a peripheral anchor vs a transmembrane anchor. To our knowledge, our work (experiments and MD simulations) is the first that directly compared the two to reveal that the peripheral anchor has higher interaction energy than the transmembrane anchor. We added a sentence “Despite the prevalence of peripheral membrane proteins, how they interact with the membrane and how this differs from TM proteins remain poorly understood”. Furthermore, we added the MD simulation result of LacY6 and LacY12 in Figure 4E-F.

      The work will benefit from further exploration of the membrane-RNase E interactions; e.g., the effect of membrane composition is explored by just using two different growth media (which on its own is not a well-controlled setting), and no attempts to change the MTS itself were made. The manuscript will benefit from considering experiments that explore the diversity of RNaseE interactions in different species; for example, the authors may want to consider the possibility of using the membrane-localisation signals of functional homologs of RNaseE in different bacteria (e.g., B. subtilis). It would be good to look at the effect of CTD deletions in a similar context (i.e., in addition to the MTS substitution by LacY2 and LacY6). 

      Thank you very much for this suggestion. During revision, we engineered point mutations in MTS and analyzed critical hydrophobic residues for membrane binding. We characterized MB% in both +/-CTD variants (Fig. 2 and Fig. S6) and their effect on lacZ mRNA degradation (Fig. 6). We will leave the use of membrane motif of B. subtilis RNase E for future study. 

      The manuscript will benefit from further discussion of the unstructured nature of the CTD, especially since the RNase CTD is well known to form condensates in Caulobacter crescentus; it is unclear how the authors excluded any roles for RNaseE phase separation in the mobility of RNaseE in E.coli cells. 

      Yes, we agree with the reviewer that the intrinsically disordered nature of the CTD might contribute to condensate formation. We explored this possibility using both epifluorescence microscopy (with a YFP fusion) and single-molecule imaging with cluster analysis (using an mEos3.2 fusion). Please see Figure S8. We did observe some weak de-clustering of RNase E upon CTD deletion. In the current study, we are unable to quantify the extent to which clustering contributes to the slow diffusion of RNase E. However, we speculate that the clustering may be linked to the low MB% of certain RNE mutants containing CTD, and we discussed this possibility in the Discussion.

      […] further supporting that the CTD decreases membrane association across RNE variants. We speculate that this effect may be related to the CTD’s role in promoting phase-separated ribonucleoprotein condensates, as observed in Caulobacter crescentus[19]. In E. coli, we also observed a modest increase in the clustering tendency of RNE compared to ΔCTD (Fig. S8). 

      Some statements in the Discussion require support with example calculations or toning down substantially. Specifically, it is not clear how the authors conclude that RNaseE interacts with its substrate for a short time (and what this time may actually be); further, the speculation about the MTS "not being an efficient membrane-binding motif for diffusion" lacks adequate support as it stands. 

      Thank you for these points. To elaborate our point on transient interaction between RNase E and RNA, we added a sentence “Specifically, if RNE interacts with mRNAs for ~20 ms or less, the slow-diffusing state would last shorter than the frame interval and remain undetected in our experiment.” Also, we added this sentence in the discussion.

      One possible explanation is that RNA-bound RNE (and RNase Y) is short-lived compared to our frame interval (~20 ms), unlike other RNA-binding proteins related to transcription and translation, interacting with RNA for ~1 min for elongation [48].

      Plus, we clarified the wording used in the second sentence that the reviewer pointed out as follows,

      Lastly, the slow diffusion of the MTS in comparison to LacY2 and LacY6 suggests that MTS is less favorable for rapid lateral motion in the membrane. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The manuscript by Troyer et al quantitatively measured the membrane localization and diffusion of RNase E, an essential ribonuclease for mRNA turnover as well as tRNA and rRNA processing in bacteria cells. Using single-molecule tracking in live E. coli cells, the authors investigated the impact of membrane targeting sequence (MTS) and the Cterminal domain (CTD) on the membrane localization and diffusion of RNase E under various perturbations. Finally, the authors tried to correlate the membrane localization of RNase E to its function on co- and post-transcriptional mRNA decay using lacZ mRNA as a model. 

      The major findings of the manuscripts include: 

      (1) WT RNase E is mostly membrane localized via MTS, confirming previous results. The diffusion of RNase E is increased upon removal of MTS or CTD, and more significantly increased upon removal of both regions. 

      (2) By tagging RNase E MTS and different lengths of LacY transmembrane domain (LacY2, LacY6, or LacY12) to mEos3.2, the results demonstrate that short LacY transmembrane sequence (LacY2 and LacY6) can increase the diffusion of mEos3.2 on the membrane compared to MTS, further supported by the molecular dynamics simulation. A similar trend was roughly observed in RNase E mutants with MTS switched to LacY transmembrane domains. 

      (3) The removal of RNase E MTS significantly increases the co-transcriptional degradation of lacZ mRNA, but has minimal effect on the post-transcriptional degradation of lacZ mRNA. Removal of CTD of RNase E overall decreases the mRNA decay rates, suggesting the synergistic effect of CTD on RNase E activity. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) The manuscript is clearly written with very detailed method descriptions and analysis parameters. 

      (2) The conclusions are mostly supported by the data and analysis. 

      (3) Some of the main conclusions are interesting and important for understanding the cellular behavior and function of RNase E. 

      Thank you for your thorough summary of our work and positive comments.

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Some of the observations show inconsistent or context-dependent trends that make it hard to generalize certain conclusions. Those points are worth discussion at least. Examples include: 

      (a) The authors conclude that MTS segment exhibits reduced MB% when succinate is used as a carbon source compared to glycerol, whereas LacY2 segment maintains 100% membrane localization, suggesting that MTS can lose membrane affinity in the former growth condition (Ln 341-342). However, the opposite case was observed for the WT RNase E and RNase E-LacY2-CTD, in which RNase E-LacY2-CTD showed reduced MB% in the succinate-containing M9 media compared to the WT RNase E (Ln 264-267). This opposite trend was not discussed. In the absence of CTD, would the media-dependent membrane localization be similar to the membrane localization sequence or to the fulllength RNase E? 

      This is a great point. Thank you for pointing out the discrepancy in data. We think the weak membrane interaction of RNaseE-lacY2-CTD likely stems from the structure instability in the presence of the CTD. Our data shows that an RNase E variant with a cytoplasmic population under a normal growth condition exhibits a greater cytoplasmic fraction in a poor growth media. In contrast, RNaseE-MTS and RNaseE-LacY2 lacking the CTD both showed 100% MB% under both normal and poor growth conditions. These results are presented in Figure S6 and further discussed in the Discussion section.

      The loss of MB% in LacY2-based RNE was observed only in the presence of the CTD (Fig. S6D), suggesting that the CTD negatively affects membrane binding of RNE, possibly by altering protein conformation. In fact, all ΔCTD RNE mutants we tested exhibited higher MB% than their CTD-containing counterparts (Fig. S6A-B). 

      (b) When using mEos3.2 reporter only, LacY2 and LacY6 both increase the diffusion of mEos3.2 compared to MTS. However, when inserting the LacY transmembrane sequence into RNase E or RNase E without CTD, only the LacY2 increases the diffusion of RNase E. This should also be discussed. 

      Thank you for raising this point. As the reviewer pointed out, as the membrane motifs, both LacY2 and LacY6 diffuse faster than the MTS, but when they are fused to RNE, only LacY2-based RNE diffuses faster than MTS-based RNE. We speculate that it is possibly due to a structural reason—having four (large) LacY6 in a tetrameric arrangement may cancel out the original fast-diffusing property of LacY6. We added this idea in the result section:

      This result may be due to the high TM load (24 helices) created by four LacY6 anchors in the RNE tetramer. Although all constructs are tetrameric, the 24-helix load (LacY6), compared with 8 (LacY2) and 4 (MTS), likely enlarges the membrane-embedded footprint and increases drag, thereby changing the mobility advantages assessed as standalone membrane anchors.

      (2) The authors interpret that in some cases the increase in the diffusion coefficient is related to the increase in the cytoplasm localization portion, such as for the LacY2 inserted RNase E with CTD, which is rational. However, the authors can directly measure the diffusion coefficient of the membrane and cytoplasm portion of RNase E by classifying the trajectories based on their localizations first, rather than just the ensemble calculation. 

      Thank you for this suggestion. Currently, because of the 2D projection effect from imaging, we cannot clearly distinguish which individual tracks are from the cytoplasm or from the inner membrane based on the localization. Therefore, we are unable to assign individual tracks as membrane-bound or cytoplasmic. However, we can demonstrate that the xNorm data can be separated into two different spatial populations based on the diffusion coefficient. D. That is we can plot xNorm of slow tracks vs xNorm of fast tracks. This analysis showed that the slow tracks have LacY-like xNorm profiles while the fast tracks have LacZ-like xNorm profiles, also quantitatively supporting our MB% fitting results. We have added this analysis to Figure S2.

      (3) The error bars of the diffusion coefficient and MB% are all SEM from bootstrapping, which are very small. I am wondering how much of the difference is simply due to a batch effect. Were the data mixed from multiple biological replicates? The number of biological replicates should also be reported. 

      Thank you for raising this point. In the original manuscript, we reported the number of tracks analyzed and noted that all data was from at least three separate biological replicates (measurements were repeated at least three different days). Furthermore, in the revised manuscript, we have provided the number of cells imaged in Table S6. 

      (4) Some figures lack p-values, such as Figures 4 and 5C-D. Also, adding p-values directly to the bar graphs will make it easier to read. 

      Thank you for checking these details. We added p values in the graphs showing k<sub>d1</sub> and k<sub>d2</sub> (Table S7).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Minor and technical points: 

      (1) Clarity and flow will be improved if each section first highlights the objective for the experiments that are described (e.g., line 240). 

      Thank you for the suggestion. We addressed this point by editing the beginning of each subsection in the Results. 

      (2) Line 272 (and elsewhere)."1.33-times faster is wrong". The authors mean 33% faster (from 0.075 to 1, see Figure 4G), and not 133% faster. Needs fixing. 

      Thanks for pointing this out. We changed this as well as other incidences where we talk about the fold difference. For example, this particular incidence was changed to:

      Indeed, in the absence of the CTD, we found that the D of LacY2-based RNE was 1.33 ± 0.01 times as fast as the MTS-based RNE. 

      (3) The authors need to consider the fitting of two species on their D population. e.g., how will a 93% - 7% split between diffusive species would have looked for the distribution in S4B? Note also the L1 profile in Fig S4C - while it is not hugely different from Figure S4B, the analysis gives a 41% amplitude for the fast-diffusing species. The 2-species analysis can also be used on some of the samples with much higher cytoplasmic components. Further, tracks that are in the more central region can be analysed to see whether the fast-diffusing species increase in amplitude. 

      Thank you for this comment. The D histograms of L1 and RNase E show a dominant peak at around 0.015, but L1 has a residual population in the shoulder (note the difference between L1’s experimental data and D1 fit, a yellow line in now Figure S3B). This residual shoulder population is absent in the D histogram of RNase E. We also performed two-species analysis as suggested by the reviewer and provided the result in Figure S3C. The analysis shows that the two-population fit (black line) is very close to one one-population fit (yellow line). While we agree with the reviewer that subpopulation analysis is helpful for other proteins that show <90% MB% (>10% significant cytoplasmic population). we found it useful to divide xNorm histogram into two populations based on the diffusivity (rather than doing two-population fit to the D histogram, which does not have spatial information). This analysis, shown in Figure S2, supports our MB% fit results.

      (4) The authors suggest that the sequestration of RNaseE to the membrane limits its interaction with cytoplasmic mRNAs, and may increase mRNA lifetime. While this is true and supported by the authors' preprint (Ref15), it will also be good to consider (and discuss) that highly-transcribed regions are in the nucleoid periphery (and thus close to the membrane) and that ribosomes/polysomes are likewise predominantly peripheral (coregulation of transcription/translation) and membrane proximal. 

      This is an interesting point, which we appreciate very much. The lacZ gene, when induced, is shown to move to the nucleoid periphery (Yang et al. 2019, Nat Comm). Also, in our preprint (Ref 15), we engineered to have lacZ closer to the membrane, by translationally fusing it to lacY. However, the degradation rate of lacZ mRNA was not enhanced by the proximity to the membrane (for both k<Sub>d1</sub> and k<sub>d2</sub>). For lacZ mRNA, we mainly see the change in k<sub>d1</sub> when RNE localization changes. We think it is due to the slow diffusion of the nascent mRNA (attached to the chromosome) and the slow diffusion of membrane-bound RNE, such that regardless of the location of the nascent mRNA, the degradation by the membrane-bound RNE is inefficient. Only when RNE is free diffusing in the cytoplasm, it seems to increase k<sub>d1</sub> (the decay of nascent mRNAs).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) It will increase the clarity of the manuscript if the authors can provide better nomenclatures for different constructs, such as for different membrane targeting sequences fused to mEos3.2, full-length RNase E, or CDT truncated RNaseE. 

      Thank you for this suggestion. We agree that many constructions were discussed, and their naming can be confusing. To help with clarity, we have abbreviated RNase E as RNE throughout the text where appropriate. 

      (2) Line 342, Figure S7D should be cited instead of S6D. 

      Thank you for finding this error. We made a proper change in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors describe the results of a single study designed to investigate the extent to which horizontal orientation energy plays a key role in supporting view-invariant face recognition. The authors collected behavioral data from adult observers who were asked to complete an old/new face matching task by learning broad-spectrum faces (not orientation filtered) during a familiarization phase and subsequently trying to label filtered faces as previously seen or novel at test. This data revealed a clear bias favoring the use of horizontal orientation energy across viewpoint changes in the target images. The authors then compared different ideal observer models (cross-correlations between target and probe stimuli) to examine how this profile might be reflected in the image-level appearance of their filtered images. This revealed that a model looking for the best matching face within a viewpoint differed substantially from human data, exhibiting a vertical orientation bias for extreme profiles. However, a model forced to match targets to probes at different viewing angles exhibited a consistent horizontal bias in much the same manner as human observers.

      Strengths:

      I think the question is an important one: The horizontal orientation bias is a great example of a low-level image property being linked to high-level recognition outcomes, and understanding the nature of that connection is important. I found the old/new task to be a straightforward task that was implemented ably and that has the benefit of being simple for participants to carry out and simple to analyze. I particularly appreciated that the authors chose to describe human data via a lower-dimensional model (their Gaussian fits to individual data) for further analysis. This was a nice way to express the nature of the tuning function, favoring horizontal orientation bias in a way that makes key parameters explicit. Broadly speaking, I also thought that the model comparison they include between the view-selective and view-tolerant models was a great next step. This analysis has the potential to reveal some good insights into how this bias emerges and ask finegrained questions about the parameters in their model fits to the behavioral data.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive appraisal of the importance of our research question as well as of the soundness of our approach to it.

      Weaknesses:

      I will start with what I think is the biggest difficulty I had with the paper. Much as I liked the model comparison analysis, I also don't quite know what to make of the view-tolerant model. As I understand the authors' description, the key feature of this model is that it does not get to compare the target and probe at the same yaw angle, but must instead pick a best match from candidates that are at different yaws. While it is interesting to see that this leads to a very different orientation profile, it also isn't obvious to me why such a comparison would be reflective of what the visual system is probably doing. I can see that the view-specific model is more or less assuming something like an exemplar representation of each face: You have the opportunity to compare a new image to a whole library of viewpoints, and presumably it isn't hard to start with some kind of first pass that identifies the best matching view first before trying to identify/match the individual in question. What I don't get about the view-tolerant model is that it seems almost like an anti-exemplar model: You specifically lack the best viewpoint in the library but have to make do with the other options. Again, this is sort of interesting and the very different behavior of the model is neat to discuss, but it doesn't seem easy to align with any theoretical perspective on face recognition. My thinking here is that it might be useful to consider an additional alternate model that doesn't specifically exclude the best-matching viewpoint, but perhaps condenses appearance across views into something like a prototype. I could even see an argument for something like the yaw-averages presented earlier in the manuscript as the basis for such a model, but this might be too much of a stretch. Overall, what I'd like to see is some kind of alternate model that incorporates the existence of the best-match viewpoint somehow, but without the explicit exemplar structure of the view-specific model.

      The view-tolerant model was designed so that identity needed to be abstracted away from variations in yaw to support face recognition. We believe this model aligns with the notion of tolerant recognition.

      The tolerance of identity recognition is presumably empowered by the internal representation of the natural statistics of identity, i.e. the stable traits and (idiosyncratic) variability of a face, which builds up through the varied encounters with a given face (Burton, Jenkins et al. 2005, Burton, Jenkins and Schweinberger 2011, Jenkins and Burton 2011, Jenkins, White et al. 2011, Burton, Kramer et al. 2016, Menon, Kemp and White 2018).

      The average of various images of a face provides its appearance distribution (i.e., variability) and central tendency (i.e., stable properties; Figure 1) and could be used as a reasonable proxy of its natural statistical properties (Burton, Jenkins et al. 2005). We thus believe that the alternate model proposed by the reviewer is relevant to existing theories of face identity recognition and agree that our current model observers do not fully capture this aspect. It is thus an excellent idea to examine the orientation tuning profile of a model observer that compares a specific view of a face to the average encompassing all views of a face identity. Since the horizontal range is proposed to carry the view-stable cues to identity, we expect that such a ‘viewpoint-average’ model observer will perform best with horizontally filtered faces and that its orientation tuning profile will significantly predict human performance across views. We expect the viewpointtolerant and viewpoint-average observers will behave similarly as they manifest the stability of the horizontal identity cues across variations in viewpoint.

      Besides this larger issue, I would also like to see some more details about the nature of the crosscorrelation that is the basis for this model comparison. I mostly think I get what is happening, but I think the authors could expand more on the nature of their noise model to make more explicit what is happening before these cross-correlations are taken. I infer that there is a noise-addition step to get them off the ceiling, but I felt that I had to read between the lines a bit to determine this.

      The view-selective model responded correctly whenever successfully matching a given face identity at a specific viewpoint to itself. Since there was an exact match in each trial, resulting in uninformative ceiling performance, we decreased the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) of the target and probe images to .125 (face RMS contrast: .01; noise RMS contrast: .08). In every trial, target and probe faces were each combined with 10 different random noise patterns. SNR was adjusted so that the overall performance of the view-selective model was in the range of human performance. We will describe these important aspects in the methods and add a supplemental with the graphic illustration of the d’ distributions of each model and human observers.

      Another thing that I think is worth considering and commenting on is the stimuli themselves and the extent to which this may limit the outcomes of their behavioral task. The use of the 3D laserscanned faces has some obvious advantages, but also (I think) removes the possibility for pigmentation to contribute to recognition, removes the contribution of varying illumination and expression to appearance variability, and perhaps presents observers with more homogeneous faces than one typically has to worry about. I don't think these negate the current results, but I'd like the authors to expand on their discussion of these factors, particularly pigmentation. Naively, surface color and texture seem like they could offer diagnostic cues to identity that don't rely so critically on horizontal orientations, so removing these may mean that horizontal bias is particularly evident when face shape is the critical cue for recognition.

      We indeed got rid of surface color by converting images to gray scales. While we acknowledge that the conversion to grayscales may have removed one potential source of surface information, it is unlikely that our stimuli fully eliminated the contribution of surface pigmentation in our study. Pigmentation refers to all surface reflectance property (Russell, Sinha et al. 2006) and hue (color) is only one surface cue among others. The grayscaled 3D laser scanned faces used here still contained natural variations in crucial surface cues such as skin albedo (i.e., how light or dark the surface appears) and texture (i.e., spatial variation in how light is reflected). Both color and grayscale stimuli (2D face pictures or 3D laser scanned faces like ours) have actually been used to disentangle the role of shape and surface cues to identity recognition (e.g., Troje and Bulthoff 1996, Vuong, Peissig et al. 2005, Russell, Sinha et al. 2006, Russell, Biederman et al. 2007, Jiang, Dricot et al. 2009).

      More fundamentally, we demonstrated that the diagnosticity of the horizontal range of face information is not restricted to the transmission of shape cues. Our recent work has indeed shown that the processing of both face shape and surface most critically relies on horizontal information (Dumont, Roux-Sibilon and Goffaux 2024).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This study investigates the visual information that is used for the recognition of faces. This is an important question in vision research and is critical for social interactions more generally. The authors ask whether our ability to recognise faces, across different viewpoints, varies as a function of the orientation information available in the image. Consistent with previous findings from this group and others, they find that horizontally filtered faces were recognised better than vertically filtered faces. Next, they probe the mechanism underlying this pattern of data by designing two model observers. The first was optimised for faces at a specific viewpoint (viewselective). The second was generalised across viewpoints (view-tolerant). In contrast to the human data, the view-specific model shows that the information that is useful for identity judgements varies according to viewpoint. For example, frontal face identities are again optimally discriminated with horizontal orientation information, but profiles are optimally discriminated with more vertical orientation information. These findings show human face recognition is biased toward horizontal orientation information, even though this may be suboptimal for the recognition of profile views of the face.

      One issue in the design of this study was the lowering of the signal-to-noise ratio in the viewselective observer. This decision was taken to avoid ceiling effects. However, it is not clear how this affects the similarity with the human observers.

      The view-selective model responded correctly whenever successfully matching a given face identity at a specific viewpoint to itself. Since there was an exact match in each trial, resulting in uninformative ceiling performance, we decreased the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) of the target and probe images to .125 (face RMS contrast: .01; noise RMS contrast: .08). In every trial, target and probe faces were each combined with 10 different random noise patterns. SNR was adjusted so that the overall performance of the view-selective model was in the range of human performance. We will describe these important aspects in the methods and add a supplemental with the graphic illustration of the d’ distributions of each model and human observers.

      Another issue is the decision to normalise image energy across orientations and viewpoints. I can see the logic in wanting to control for these effects, but this does reflect natural variation in image properties. So, again, I wonder what the results would look like without this step.

      Energy of natural images is disproportionately distributed across orientations (e.g., Hansen, Essock et al. 2003). Images of faces cropped from their background as used here contain most of their energy in the horizontal range (Keil 2009, Goffaux and Greenwood 2016, Goffaux 2019). If not normalized after orientation filtering, such uneven distribution of energy would boost recognition performance in the horizontal range across views. Normalization was performed across our experimental conditions merely to avoid energy from explaining the influence of viewpoint on the orientation tuning profile.

      We are not aware of any systematic natural variations of energy across face views. To address this, we measured face average energy (i.e., RMS contrast) in the original stimulus set, i.e., before the application of any image processing or manipulation. Background pixels were excluded from these image analyses. Across yaws, we found energy to range between .11 and .14 on a 0 to 1 grayscale. This is moderate compared to the range of energy variations we measured across identities (from .08 to .18). This suggests that variations in energy across viewpoints are moderate compared to variations related to identity. It is unclear whether these observations are specific to our stimulus set or whether they are generalizable to faces we encounter in everyday life. They, however, indicate that RMS contrast did not substantially vary across views in the present study and suggest that RMS normalization is unlikely to have affected the influence of viewpoint on recognition performance.

      Nonetheless, we acknowledge the importance of this issue regarding the trade-off between experimental control and stimulus naturalness, and we will refer to it explicitly in the methods section.

      Despite the bias toward horizontal orientations in human observers, there were some differences in the orientation preference at each viewpoint. For example, frontal faces were biased to horizontal (90 degrees), but other viewpoints had biases that were slightly off horizontal (e.g., right profile: 80 degrees, left profile: 100 degrees). This does seem to show that differences in statistical information at different viewpoints (more horizontal information for frontal and more vertical information for profile) do influence human perception. It would be good to reflect on this nuance in the data.

      Indeed, human performance data indicates that while identity recognition remains tuned to horizontal information, horizontal tuning shows some variation across viewpoints. We primarily focused on the first aspect because of its direct relevance to our research objective, but also discussed the second aspect: with yaw rotation, certain non-horizontal morphological features such as the jaw line or nose bridge, etc. may increasingly contribute to identity recognition, whereas at frontal or near frontal views, features are mostly horizontally-oriented (e.g., Keil 2008, Keil 2009). We will relate this part of the discussion more explicitly to the observation of the fluctuation of the peak location as a function of yaw.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      The authors frequently refer to their predictions and theory as being causal, both in the manuscript and in their response to reviewers. However, causal inference requires careful experimental design, not just statistical prediction. For example, the claim that "algorithmic differences between those with BPD and matched healthy controls" are "causal" in my opinion is not warranted by the data, as the study does not employ experimental manipulations or interventions which might predictably affect parameter values. Even if model parameters can be seen as valid proxies to latent mechanisms, this does not automatically mean that such mechanisms cause the clinical distinction between BPD and CON, they could plausibly also refer to the effects of therapy or medication. I recommend that such causal language, also implicit to expressions like "parameter influences on explicit intentional attributions", is toned down throughout the manuscript.

      Thankyou for this chance to be clearer in the language. Our models and paradigm introduce a from of temporal causality, given that latent parameter distributions are directly influenced by latent parameter estimates at a previous point in time (self-uncertainty and other uncertainty directly governs social contagion). Nevertheless, we appreciate the reviewers perspective and have now toned down the language to reflect this.

      Abstract:

      ‘Our model makes clear predictions about the mechanisms of social information generalisation concerning both joint and individual reward.’

      Discussion:

      ‘We can simulate this by modelling a framework that incorporates priors based on both self and a strong memory impression of a notional other (Figure S3).’

      ‘We note a strength of this work is the use of model comparison to understand algorithmic differences between those with BPD and matched healthy controls.’

      Although the authors have now much clearer outlined the stuy's aims, there still is a lack of clarity with respect to the authors' specific hypotheses. I understand that their primary predictions about disruptions to self-other generalisation processes underlying BPD are embedded in the four main models that are tested, but it is still unclear what specific hypotheses the authors had about group differences with respect to the tested models. I recommend the authors specify this in the introduction rather than refering to prior work where the same hypotheses may have been mentioned.

      Thankyou for this further critique which has enabled us to more cleary refine our introduction. We have now edited our introduction to be more direct about our hypotheses, that these hypotheses are instantiated into formal models, and what our predictions were. We have also included a small section on how previous predictions from other computational assessments of BPD link to our exploratory work, and highlighted this throughout the manuscript.

      ‘This paper seeks to address this gap by testing explicitly how disruptions in self-other generalization processes may underpin interpersonal disruptions observed in BPD. Specifically, our hypotheses were: (i) healthy controls will demonstrate evidence for both self-insertion and social contagion, integrating self and other information during interpersonal learning; and (ii) individuals with BPD will exhibit diminished self-other integration, reflected in stronger evidence for observations that assume distinct self-other representations.

      We tested these hypotheses by designing a dynamic, sequential, three-phase Social Value Orientation (Murphy & Ackerman, 2014) paradigm—the Intentions Game—that would provide behavioural signatures assessing whether BPD differed from healthy controls in these generalization processes (Figure 1A). We coupled this paradigm with a lattice of models (M1-M4) that distinguish between self-insertion and social contagion (Figure 1B), and performed model comparison:

      M1. Both self-to-other (self-insertion) and other-to-self (social contagion) occur before and after learning M2. Self-to-other transfer only occurs M3. Other-to-self transfer only occurs M4. Neither transfer process, suggesting distinct self-other representations

      We additionally ran exploratory analysis of parameter differences and model predictions between groups following from prior work demonstrating changes in prosociality (Hula et al., 2018), social concern (Henco et al., 2020), belief stability (Story et al., 2024a), and belief updating (Story, 2024b) in BPD to understand whether discrepancies in self-other generalisation influences observational learning. By clearly articulating our hypotheses, we aim to clarify the theoretical contribution of our findings to existing literature on social learning, BPD, and computational psychiatry.’

      Caveats should also be added about the exploratory nature of the many parameter group comparisons. If there are any predictions about group differences that can be made based on prior literature, the authors should make such links clear.

      Thank you for this. We have now included caveats in the text to highlight the exploratory nature of these group comparisons, and added direct links to relevant literature where able:

      Introduction

      ‘We additionally ran exploratory analysis of parameter differences and model predictions between groups following from prior work demonstrating changes in prosociality (Hula et al., 2018), social concern (Henco et al., 2020), belief stability (Story et al., 2024a), and belief updating (Story, 2024b) in BPD to understand whether discrepancies in self-other generalisation influences observational learning. By clearly articulating our hypotheses, we aim to clarify the theoretical contribution of our findings to existing literature on social learning, BPD, and computational psychiatry.’

      Model Comparison

      ‘We found that CON participants were best fit at the group level by M1 (Frequency = 0.59, Exceedance Probability = 0.98), whereas BPD participants were best fit by M4 (Frequency = 0.54, Exceedance Probability = 0.86; Figure 2A). This suggests CON participants are best fit by a model that fully integrates self and other when learning, whereas those with BPD are best explained as holding disintegrated and separate representations of self and other that do not transfer information back and forth.

      We first explore parameters between separate fits (see Methods). Later, in order to assuage concerns about drawing inferences from different models, we examined the relationships between the relevant parameters when we forced all participants to be fit to each of the models (in a hierarchical manner, separated by group). In sum, our model comparison is supported by convergence in parameter values when comparisons are meaningful (see Supplementary Materials). We refer to both types of analysis below.’

      Phase 2 analysis

      ‘Prior work predicts those with BPD should focus more intently on public social information, rather than private information that only concerns one party (Henco et al., 2020). In BPD participants, only new beliefs about the relative reward preferences – mutual outcomes for both player - of partners differed (see Fig 2E): new median priors were larger than median preferences in phase 1 (mean = -0.47; = -6.10, 95%HDI: -7.60, -4.60).’

      ‘Models of moral preference learning (Story et al., 2024) predicts that BPD vs non-BPD participants have more rigid beliefs about their partners. We found that BPD participants were equally flexible around their prior beliefs about a partner’s relative reward preferences (= -1.60, 95%HDI: -3.42, 0.23), and were less flexible around their beliefs about a partner’s absolute reward preferences (=-4.09, 95%HDI: -5.37, -2.80), versus CON (Figure 2B).’

      Phase 3 analysis

      ‘Prior work predicts that human economic preferences are shaped by observation (Panizza, et al., 2021; Suzuki et al. 2016; Yu et al, 2021), although little-to-no work has examined whether contagion differs for relative vs. absolute preferences. Associative models predict that social contagion may be exaggerated in BPD (Ereira et al., 2018).… As a whole, humans are more susceptible to changing relative preferences more than selfish, absolute reward preferences, and this is disrupted in BPD.’

      Psychometric and Intentional Attribution analysis

      ‘Childhood trauma, persecution, and poor mentalising in BPD are all predicted to disrupt one’s ability to change (Fonagy & Luyten, 2009).’

      ‘Prior work has also predicted that partner-participant preference disparity influences mental state attributions (Barnby et al., 2022; Panizza et al., 2021).’

      I'm not sure I understand why the authors, after adding multiple comparison correction, now list two kinds of p-values. To me, this is misleading and precludes the point of multiple comparison corrections, I therefore recommend they report the FDR-adjusted p-values only. Likewise, if a corrected p-value is greater than 0.05 this should not be interpreted as a result.

      We have now adjusted the exploratory results to include only the FDR corrected values in the text.

      ‘We assessed conditional psychometric associations with social contagion under the assumption of M3 for all participants. We conducted partial correlation analyses to estimate relationships conditional on all other associations and retained all that survived bootstrapping (5000 reps), permutation testing (5000 reps), and subsequent FDR correction. When not controlled for group status, RGPTSB and CTQ scores were both moderately associated with MZQ scores (RGPTSB r = 0.41, 95%CI: 0.23, 0.60, p[fdr]=0.043; CTQ r = 0.354 95%CI: 0.13, 0.56, p[fdr]=0.02). This was not affected by group correction. CTQ scores were moderately and negatively associated with shifts in individualistic reward preferences (; r = -0.25, 95%CI: -0.46, -0.04, p[fdr]=0.03). This was not affected by group correction. MZQ scores were in turn moderately and negatively associated with shifts in prosocial-competitive preferences () between phase 1 and 3 (r = -0.26, 95%CI: -0.46, -0.06, p[fdr]=0.03). This was diminished when controlled for group status (r = 0.13, 95%CI: -0.34, 0.08, p[fdr]=0.20). Together this provides some evidence that self-reported trauma and self-reported mentalising influence social contagion (Fig S11). Social contagion under M3 was highly correlated with contagion under M1 demonstrating parsimony of outcomes across models (Fig S12).

      Prior work has predicted that partner-participant preference disparity influences mental state attributions (Barnby et al., 2022; Panizza et al., 2021). We tested parameter influences on explicit intentional attributions in Phase 2 while controlling for group status. Attributions included the degree to which they believed their partner was motived by harmful intent (HI) and self-interest (SI). According with prior work (Barnby et al., 2022), greater disparity of absolute preferences before learning was associated on a trend level with reduced attributions of SI (<= -0.23, p[fdr]=0.08), and greater disparity of relative preferences before learning exaggerated attributions of HI = 0.21, p[fdr]=0.08), but did not survive correction (Figure S4B). This is likely due to partners being significantly less individualistic and prosocial on average compared to participants (= -5.50, 95%HDI: -7.60, -3.60; = 12, 95%HDI: 9.70, 14.00); partners are recognised as less selfish and more competitive.’

      Can the authors please elaborate why the algorithm proposed to be employed by BPD is more 'entropic', especially given both their self-priors and posteriors about partners' preferences tended to be more precise than the ones used by CON? As far as I understand, there's nothing in the data to suggest BPD predictions should be more uncertain. In fact, this leads me to wonder, similarly to what another reviewer has already suggested, whether BPD participants generate self-referential priors over others in the same way CON participants do, they are just less favourable (i.e., in relation to oneself, but always less prosocial) - I think there is currently no model that would incorporate this possibility? It should at least be possible to explore this by checking if there is any statistical relationship between the estimated θ_ppt^m and 〖p(θ〗_par |D^0).

      Thank you for this opportunity to be clearer in our wording. We belief the reviewer is referring to this line in the discussion: ‘In either case, the algorithm underlying the computational goal for BPD participants is far higher in entropy and emphasises a less stable or reliable process of inference.’

      We note in the revised Figure 2 panel E and in the results that those with BPD under M4 show insertion along absolute reward (they still expect diminished selfishness in others), but neutral priors over relative reward (around 0, suggesting expectations of neither prosocial or competitive tendencies of others). Thus, θ_ppt^m (self preference) and θ_par^m (other preference) are tightly associated for absolute, but not relative reward.

      In our wording, we meant that whether under model M4 or M1, those with BPD either show a neutral prior over relative reward (M4) or a prior with large variance over relative reward (M1), showing expectations of difference between themselves and their partner. In both cases, expectation about a partner’s absolute reward preferences is diminished vs. CON participants. We have strengthened our language in the discussion to clarify this:

      ‘In either case, the algorithm underlying the computational goal for BPD participants is far higher in uncertainty, whether through a neutral central tendency (M4) or large variance (M1) prior over relative reward in phase 2, and emphasises a less certain and reliable expectation about others.’

      To note, social contagion under M3 was highly correlated with contagion under M1 (see Fig S11). This provides some preliminary evidence that trauma impacts beliefs about individualism directly, whereas trauma and persecutory beliefs impact beliefs about prosociality through impaired trait mentalising" - I don't understand what the authors mean by this, can they please elaborate and add some explanation to the main text?

      We have now clarified this in the text:

      ‘Together this provides some evidence that self-reported trauma and self-reported mentalising influence social contagion (Fig S11). Social contagion under M3 was highly correlated with contagion under M1 demonstrating parsimony of outcomes across models (Fig S12).’

      I noted that at least some of the newly added references have not been added to the bibliography (e.g., Hitchcock et al. 2022).

      Thankyou for noticing this omission. We have now ensured all cited works are in the reference list.

      Reviewer 2:

      The paper is not based on specific empirical hypotheses formulated at the outset, but, rather, it uses an exploratory approach. Indeed, the task is not chosen in order to tackle specific empirical hypotheses. This, in my view, is a limitation since the introduction reads a bit vague and it is not always clear which gaps in the literature the paper aims to fill. As a further consequence, it is not always clear how the findings speak to previous theories on the topic.’

      As I wrote in the public review, however, I believe that an important limitation of this work is that it was not based on testing specific empirical hypotheses formulated at the outset, and on selecting the experimental paradigm accordingly. This is a limitation because it is not always clear which gaps in the literature the paper aims to fill. As a consequence, although it has improved substantially compared to the previous version, the introduction remains a bit vague. As a further consequence, it is not always clear how the findings speak to previous theories on the topic. Still, despite this limitation, the paper has many strengths, and I believe it is now ready for publication

      Thank you for this further critique. We appreciate your appraisal that the work has improved substantially and is ready for publication. We nevertheless have opted to clarify our introduction and aprior predictions throughout the manuscript (please see response to Reviewer 1).

      Reviewer 3:

      Although the authors note that their approach makes "clear and transparent a priori predictions," the paper could be improved by providing a clear and consolidated statement of these predictions so that the results could be interpreted vis-a-vis any a priori hypotheses.

      In line with comments from both Reviewer 1 and 2, we have clarified our introduction to make it clear what our aprior predictions and hypotheses are about our core aims and exploratory analyses (see response to Reviewer 1).

      The approach of using a partial correlation network with bootstrapping (and permutation) was interesting, but the logic of the analysis was not clearly stated. In particular, there are large group (Table 1: CON vs. BPD) differences in the measures introduced into this network. As a result, it is hard to understand whether any partial correlations are driven primarily by mean differences in severity (correlations tend to be inflated in extreme groups designs due to the absence of observation in middle of scales forming each bivariate distribution). I would have found these exploratory analyses more revealing if group membership was controlled for.

      Thank you for this chance to be clearer in our methods. We have now written a more direct exposition of this exploratory method:

      ‘Exploratory Network Analysis

      To understand the individual differences of trait attributes (MZQ, RGPTSB, CTQ) with other-to-self information transfer () across the entire sample we performed a network analysis (Borsboom, 2021). Network analysis allows for conditional associations between variables to be estimated; each association is controlled for by all other associations in the network. It also allows for visual inspection of the conditional relationships to get an intuition for how variables are interrelated as a whole (see Fig S11). We implemented network analysis with the bootNet package in r using the ‘estimateNetwork’ function with partial correlations (Epskamp, Borsboom & Fried, 2018). To assess the stability of the partial correlations we further implemented bootstrap resampling with 5000 repetitions using the ‘bootnet’ function. We then additionally shuffled the data and refitted the network 5000 times to determine a p<sub>permuted</sub> value; this indicates the probability that a conditional relationship in the original network was within the null distribution of each conditional relationship. We then performed False Discovery Rate correction on the resulting p-values. We additionally controlled for group status for all variables in a supplementary analysis (Table S4).’

      We have also further corrected for group status and reported these results as a supplementary table, and also within the main text alongside the main results. We have opted to relegate Figure 4 into a supplementary figure to make the text clearer.

      ‘We explored conditional psychometric associations with social contagion under the assumption of M3 for all participants (where everyone is able to be influenced by their partner). We conducted partial correlation analyses to estimate relationships conditional on all other associations and retained all that survived bootstrapping (5000 reps), permutation testing (5000 reps), and subsequent FDR correction. When not controlled for group status, RGPTSB and CTQ scores were both moderately associated with MZQ scores (RGPTSB r = 0.41, 95%CI: 0.23, 0.60, p[fdr]=0.043; CTQ r = 0.354 95%CI: 0.13, 0.56, p[fdr]=0.02). This was not affected by group correction. CTQ scores were moderately and negatively associated with shifts in individualistic reward preferences (; r = -0.25, 95%CI: -0.46, -0.04, p[fdr]=0.03). This was not affected by group correction. MZQ scores were in turn moderately and negatively associated with shifts in prosocial-competitive preferences () between phase 1 and 3 (r = -0.26, 95%CI: -0.46, -0.06, p[fdr]=0.03). This was diminished when controlled for group status (r = 0.13, 95%CI: -0.34, 0.08, p[fdr]=0.20). Together this provides some evidence that self-reported trauma and self-reported mentalising influence social contagion (Fig S11). Social contagion under M3 was highly correlated with contagion under M1 demonstrating parsimony of outcomes across models (Fig S12).’

      Discussion first para: "effected -> affected"

      Thanks for spotting this. We have now changed it.

      Add "s" to "participant: "Notably, despite differing strategies, those with BPD achieved similar accuracy to CON participant."

      We have now changed this.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Measurement of BOLD MR imaging has regularly found regions of the brain that show reliable suppression of BOLD responses during specific experimental testing conditions. These observations are to some degree unexplained, in comparison with more usual association between activation of the BOLD response and excitatory activation of the neurons (most tightly linked to synaptic activity) in the same brain location. This paper finds two patients whose brains were tested with both non-invasive functional MRI and with invasive insertion of electrodes, which allowed the direct recording of neuronal activity. The electrode insertions were made within the fusiform gyrus, which is known to process information about faces, in a clinical search for the sites of intractable epilepsy in each patient. The simple observation is that the electrode location in one patient showed activation of the BOLD response and activation of neuronal firing in response to face stimuli. This is the classical association. The other patient showed an informative and different pattern of responses. In this person, the electrode location showed a suppression of the BOLD response to face stimuli and, most interestingly, an associated suppression of neuronal activity at the electrode site.

      Strengths:

      Whilst these results are not by themselves definitive, they add an important piece of evidence to a long-standing discussion about the origins of the BOLD response. The observation of decreased neuronal activation associated with negative BOLD is interesting because, at various times, exactly the opposite association has been predicted. It has been previously argued that if synaptic mechanisms of neuronal inhibition are responsible for the suppression of neuronal firing, then it would be reasonable

      Weaknesses:

      The chief weakness of the paper is that the results may be unique in a slightly awkward way. The observation of positive BOLD and neuronal activation is made at one brain site in one patient, while the complementary observation of negative BOLD and neuronal suppression actually derives from the other patient. Showing both effects in both patients would make a much stronger paper.

      We thank reviewer #1 for their positive evaluation of our paper. Obviously, we agree with the reviewer that the paper would be much stronger if BOTH effects – spike increase and decrease – would be found in BOTH patients in their corresponding fMRI regions (lateral and medial fusiform gyrus) (also in the same hemisphere). Nevertheless, we clearly acknowledge this limitation in the (revised) version of the manuscript (p.8: Material and Methods section).

      Note that with respect to the fMRI data, our results are not surprising, as we indicate in the manuscript: BOLD increases to faces (relative to nonface objects) are typically found in the LatFG and BOLD decreases in the medialFG (in the revised version, we have added the reference to an early neuroimaging paper that describes this dissociation clearly:

      Pelphrey, K. A., Mack, P. B., Song, A., Güzeldere, G., & McCarthy, G. Faces evoke spatially differentiated patterns of BOLD activation and deactivation. Neuroreport 14, 955–959 (2003).

      This pattern of increase/decrease in fMRI can be appreciated in both patients on Figure 2, although one has to consider both the transverse and coronal slices to appreciate it.

      Regarding electrophysiological data, in the current paper, one could think that P1 shows only increases to faces, and P2 would show only decreases (irrespective of the region). However, that is not the case since 11% of P1’s face-selective units are decreases (89% are increases) and 4% of P2’s face-selective units are increases. This has now been made clearer in the revised manuscript (p.5).

      As the reviewer is certainly aware, the number and positions of the electrodes are based on strict clinical criteria, and we will probably never encounter a situation with two neighboring (macro-micro hybrid electrodes), one with microelectrodes ending up in the lateral MidFG, the other in the medial MidFG, in the same patient. If there is no clinical value for the patient, this cannot be done.

      The only thing we can do is to strengthen these results in the future by collecting data on additional patients with an electrode either in the lateral or the medial FG, together with fMRI. But these are the only two patients we have been able to record so far with electrodes falling unambiguously in such contrasted regions and with large (and comparable) measures.

      While we acknowledge that the results may be unique because of the use of 2 contrasted patients only (and this is why the paper is a short report), the data is compelling in these 2 cases, and we are confident that it will be replicated in larger cohorts in the future.

      Finally, information regarding ethics approval has been provided in the paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This is a short and straightforward paper describing BOLD fMRI and depth electrode measurements from two regions of the fusiform gyrus that show either higher or lower BOLD responses to faces vs. objects (which I will call face-positive and facenegative regions). In these regions, which were studied separately in two patients undergoing epilepsy surgery, spiking activity increased for faces relative to objects in the face-positive region and decreased for faces relative to objects in the face-negative region. Interestingly, about 30% of neurons in the face-negative region did not respond to objects and decreased their responses below baseline in response to faces (absolute suppression).

      Strengths:

      These patient data are valuable, with many recording sessions and neurons from human face-selective regions, and the methods used for comparing face and object responses in both fMRI and electrode recordings were robust and well-established. The finding of absolute suppression could clarify the nature of face selectivity in human fusiform gyrus since previous fMRI studies of the face-negative region could not distinguish whether face < object responses came from absolute suppression, or just relatively lower but still positive responses to faces vs. objects.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors claim that the results tell us about both 1) face-selectivity in the fusiform gyrus, and 2) the physiological basis of the BOLD signal. However, I would like to see more of the data that supports the first claim, and I am not sure the second claim is supported.

      (1) The authors report that ~30% of neurons showed absolute suppression, but those data are not shown separately from the neurons that only show relative reductions. It is difficult to evaluate the absolute suppression claim from the short assertion in the text alone (lines 105-106), although this is a critical claim in the paper.

      We thank reviewer #2 for their positive evaluation of our paper. We understand the reviewer’s point, and we partly agree. Where we respectfully disagree is that the finding of absolute suppression is critical for the claim of the paper: finding an identical contrast between the two regions in terms of RELATIVE increase/decrease of face-selective activity in fMRI and spiking activity is already novel and informative. Where we agree with the reviewer is that the absolute suppression could be more documented: it wasn’t, due to space constraints (brief report). We provide below an example of a neuron showing absolute suppression to faces (P2), as also requested in the recommendations to authors. In the frequency domain, there is only a face-selective response (1.2 Hz and harmonics) but no significant response at 6 Hz (common general visual response). In the time-domain, relative to face onset, the response drops below baseline level. It means that this neuron has baseline (non-periodic) spontaneous spiking activity that is actively suppressed when a face appears.

      Author response image 1.

      (2) I am not sure how much light the results shed on the physiological basis of the BOLD signal. The authors write that the results reveal "that BOLD decreases can be due to relative, but also absolute, spike suppression in the human brain" (line 120). But I think to make this claim, you would need a region that exclusively had neurons showing absolute suppression, not a region with a mix of neurons, some showing absolute suppression and some showing relative suppression, as here. The responses of both groups of neurons contribute to the measured BOLD signal, so it seems impossible to tell from these data how absolute suppression per se drives the BOLD response.

      It is a fact that we find both kinds of responses in the same region. We cannot tell with this technique if neurons showing relative vs. absolute suppression of responses are spatially segregated for instance (e.g., forming two separate sub-regions) or are intermingled. And we cannot tell from our data how absolute suppression per se drives the BOLD response. In our view, this does not diminish the interest and originality of the study, but the statement "that BOLD decreases can be due to relative, but also absolute, spike suppression in the human brain” has been rephrased in the revised manuscript: "that BOLD decreases can be due to relative, or absolute (or a combination of both), spike suppression in the human brain”.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      In this paper the authors conduct two experiments an fMRI experiment and intracranial recordings of neurons in two patients P1 and P2. In both experiments, they employ a SSVEP paradigm in which they show images at a fast rate (e.g. 6Hz) and then they show face images at a slower rate (e.g. 1.2Hz), where the rest of the images are a variety of object images. In the first patient, they record from neurons over a region in the mid fusiform gyrus that is face-selective and in the second patient, they record neurons from a region more medially that is not face selective (it responds more strongly to objects than faces). Results find similar selectivity between the electrophysiology data and the fMRI data in that the location which shows higher fMRI to faces also finds face-selective neurons and the location which finds preference to non faces also shows non face preferring neurons.

      Strengths:

      The data is important in that it shows that there is a relationship between category selectivity measured from electrophysiology data and category-selective from fMRI. The data is unique as it contains a lot of single and multiunit recordings (245 units) from the human fusiform gyrus - which the authors point out - is a humanoid specific gyrus.

      Weaknesses:

      My major concerns are two-fold:

      (i) There is a paucity of data; Thus, more information (results and methods) is warranted; and in particular there is no comparison between the fMRI data and the SEEG data.

      We thank reviewer #3 for their positive evaluation of our paper. If the reviewer means paucity of data presentation, we agree and we provide more presentation below, although the methods and results information appear as complete to us. The comparison between fMRI and SEEG is there, but can only be indirect (i.e., collected at different times and not related on a trial-by-trial basis for instance). In addition, our manuscript aims at providing a short empirical contribution to further our understanding of the relationship between neural responses and BOLD signal, not to provide a model of neurovascular coupling.

      (ii) One main claim of the paper is that there is evidence for suppressed responses to faces in the non-face selective region. That is, the reduction in activation to faces in the non-face selective region is interpreted as a suppression in the neural response and consequently the reduction in fMRI signal is interpreted as suppression. However, the SSVEP paradigm has no baseline (it alternates between faces and objects) and therefore it cannot distinguish between lower firing rate to faces vs suppression of response to faces.

      We understand the concern of the reviewer, but we respectfully disagree that our paradigm cannot distinguish between lower firing rate to faces vs. suppression of response to faces. Indeed, since the stimuli are presented periodically (6 Hz), we can objectively distinguish stimulus-related activity from spontaneous neuronal firing. The baseline corresponds to spikes that are non-periodic, i.e., unrelated to the (common face and object) stimulation. For a subset of neurons, even this non-periodic baseline activity is suppressed, above and beyond the suppression of the 6 Hz response illustrated on Figure 2. We mention it in the manuscript, but we agree that we do not present illustrations of such decrease in the time-domain for SU, which we did not consider as being necessary initially (please see below for such presentation).

      (1) Additional data: the paper has 2 figures: figure 1 which shows the experimental design and figure 2 which presents data, the latter shows one example neuron raster plot from each patient and group average neural data from each patient. In this reader's opinion this is insufficient data to support the conclusions of the paper. The paper will be more impactful if the researchers would report the data more comprehensively.

      We answer to more specific requests for additional evidence below, but the reviewer should be aware that this is a short report, which reaches the word limit. In our view, the group average neural data should be sufficient to support the conclusions, and the example neurons are there for illustration. And while we cannot provide the raster plots for a large number of neurons, the anonymized data is made available at:

      (a) There is no direct comparison between the fMRI data and the SEEG data, except for a comparison of the location of the electrodes relative to the statistical parametric map generated from a contrast (Fig 2a,d). It will be helpful to build a model linking between the neural responses to the voxel response in the same location - i.e., estimate from the electrophysiology data the fMRI data (e.g., Logothetis & Wandell, 2004).

      As mentioned above the comparison between fMRI and SEEG is indirect (i.e., collected at different times and not related on a trial-by-trial basis for instance) and would not allow to make such a model.

      (b) More comprehensive analyses of the SSVEP neural data: It will be helpful to show the results of the frequency analyses of the SSVEP data for all neurons to show that there are significant visual responses and significant face responses. It will be also useful to compare and quantify the magnitude of the face responses compared to the visual responses.

      The data has been analyzed comprehensively, but we would not be able to show all neurons with such significant visual responses and face-selective responses.

      (c) The neuron shown in E shows cyclical responses tied to the onset of the stimuli, is this the visual response?

      Correct, it’s the visual response at 6 Hz.

      If so, why is there an increase in the firing rate of the neuron before the face stimulus is shown in time 0?

      Because the stimulation is continuous. What is displayed at 0 is the onset of the face stimulus, with each face stimulus being preceded by 4 images of nonface objects.

      The neuron's data seems different than the average response across neurons; This raises a concern about interpreting the average response across neurons in panel F which seems different than the single neuron responses

      The reviewer is correct, and we apologize for the confusion. This is because the average data on panel F has been notch-filtered for the 6 Hz (and harmonic responses), as indicated in the methods (p.11): ‘a FFT notch filter (filter width = 0.05 Hz) was then applied on the 70 s single or multi-units time-series to remove the general visual response at 6 Hz and two additional harmonics (i.e., 12 and 18 Hz)’.

      Here is the same data without the notch-filter (the 6Hz periodic response is clearly visible):

      Author response image 2.

      For sake of clarity, we prefer presenting the notch-filtered data in the paper, but the revised version makes it clear in the figure caption that the average data has been notch-filtered.

      (d) Related to (c) it would be useful to show raster plots of all neurons and quantify if the neural responses within a region are homogeneous or heterogeneous. This would add data relating the single neuron response to the population responses measured from fMRI. See also Nir 2009.

      We agree with the reviewer that this is interesting, but again we do not think that it is necessary for the point made in the present paper. Responses in these regions appear rather heterogenous, and we are currently working on a longer paper with additional SEEG data (other patients tested for shorter sessions) to define and quantify the face-selective neurons in the MidFusiform gyrus with this approach (without relating it to the fMRI contrast as reported here).

      (e) When reporting group average data (e.g., Fig 2C,F) it is necessary to show standard deviation of the response across neurons.

      We agree with the reviewer and have modified Figure 2 accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      (f) Is it possible to estimate the latency of the neural responses to face and object images from the phase data? If so, this will add important information on the timing of neural responses in the human fusiform gyrus to face and object images.

      The fast periodic paradigm to measure neural face-selectivity has been used in tens of studies since its original reports:

      In this paradigm, the face-selective response spreads to several harmonics (1.2 Hz, 2.4 Hz, 3.6 Hz, etc.) (which are summed for quantifying the total face-selective amplitude). This is illustrated below by the averaged single units’ SNR spectra across all recording sessions for both participants.

      Author response image 3.

      There is no unique phase-value, each harmonic being associated with a phase-value, so that the timing cannot be unambiguously extracted from phase values. Instead, the onset latency is computed directly from the time-domain responses, which is more straightforward and reliable than using the phase. Note that the present paper is not about the specific time-courses of the different types of neurons, which would require a more comprehensive report, but which is not necessary to support the point made in the present paper about the SEEG-fMRI sign relationship.

      (g) Related to (e) In total the authors recorded data from 245 units (some single units and some multiunits) and they found that both in the face and nonface selective most of the recoded neurons exhibited face -selectivity, which this reader found confusing: They write “ Among all visually responsive neurons, we found a very high proportion of face-selective neurons (p < 0.05) in both activated and deactivated MidFG regions (P1: 98.1%; N = 51/52; P2: 86.6%; N = 110/127)’. Is the face selectivity in P1 an increase in response to faces and P2 a reduction in response to faces or in both it’s an increase in response to faces

      Face-selectivity is defined as a DIFFERENTIAL response to faces compared to objects, not necessarily a larger response to faces. So yes, face-selectivity in P1 is an increase in response to faces and P2 a reduction in response to faces.

      Additional methods

      (a) it is unclear if the SSVEP analyses of neural responses were done on the spikes or the raw electrical signal. If the former, how is the SSVEP frequency analysis done on discrete data like action potentials?

      The FFT is applied directly on spike trains using Matlab’s discrete Fourier Transform function. This function is suitable to be applied to spike trains in the same way as to any sampled digital signal (here, the microwires signal was sampled at 30 kHz, see Methods).

      In complementary analyses, we also attempted to apply the FFT on spike trains that had been temporally smoothed by convolving them with a 20ms square window (Le Cam et al., 2023, cited in the paper ). This did not change the outcome of the frequency analyses in the frequency range we are interested in. We have also added one sentence with information in the methods section about spike detection (p.10).

      (b) it is unclear why the onset time was shifted by 33ms; one can measure the phase of the response relative to the cycle onset and use that to estimate the delay between the onset of a stimulus and the onset of the response. Adding phase information will be useful.

      The onset time was shifted by 33ms because the stimuli are presented with a sinewave contrast modulation (i.e., at 0ms, the stimulus has 0% contrast). 100% contrast is reached at half a stimulation cycle, which is 83.33ms here, but a response is likely triggered before reaching 100% contrast. To estimate the delay between the start of the sinewave (0% contrast) and the triggering of a neural response, we tested 7 SEEG participants with the same images presented in FPVS sequences either as a sinewave contrast (black line) modulation or as a squarewave (i.e. abrupt) contrast modulation (red line). The 33ms value is based on these LFP data obtained in response to such sinewave stimulation and squarewave stimulation of the same paradigm. This delay corresponds to 4 screen refresh frames (120 Hz refresh rate = 8.33ms by frame) and 35% of the full contrast, as illustrated below (please see also Retter, T. L., & Rossion, B. (2016). Uncovering the neural magnitude and spatio-temporal dynamics of natural image categorization in a fast visual stream. Neuropsychologia, 91, 9–28).

      Author response image 4.

      (2) Interpretation of suppression:

      The SSVEP paradigm alternates between 2 conditions: faces and objects and has no baseline; In other words, responses to faces are measured relative to the baseline response to objects so that any region that contains neurons that have a lower firing rate to faces than objects is bound to show a lower response in the SSVEP signal. Therefore, because the experiment does not have a true baseline (e.g. blank screen, with no visual stimulation) this experimental design cannot distinguish between lower firing rate to faces vs suppression of response to faces.

      The strongest evidence put forward for suppression is the response of non-visual neurons that was also reduced when patients looked at faces, but since these are non-visual neurons, it is unclear how to interpret the responses to faces.

      We understand this point, but how does the reviewer know that these are non-visual neurons? Because these neurons are located in the visual cortex, they are likely to be visual neurons that are not responsive to non-face objects. In any case, as the reviewer writes, we think it’s strong evidence for suppression.

      We thank all three reviewers for their positive evaluation of our paper and their constructive comments.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Zhang et al. addressed the question of whether advantageous and disadvantageous inequality aversion can be vicariously learned and generalized. Using an adapted version of the ultimatum game (UG), in three phases, participants first gave their own preference (baseline phase), then interacted with a "teacher" to learn their preference (learning phase), and finally were tested again on their own (transfer phase). The key measure is whether participants exhibited similar choice preferences (i.e., rejection rate and fairness rating) influenced by the learning phase, by contrasting their transfer phase and baseline phase. Through a series of statistical modeling and computational modeling, the authors reported that both advantageous and disadvantageous inequality aversion can indeed be learned (Study 1), and even be generalised (Study 2).

      Strengths:

      This study is very interesting, it directly adapted the lab's previous work on the observational learning effect on disadvantageous inequality aversion, to test both advantageous and disadvantageous inequality aversion in the current study. Social transmission of action, emotion, and attitude have started to be looked at recently, hence this research is timely. The use of computational modeling is mostly appropriate and motivated. Study 2, which examined the vicarious inequality aversion in conditions where feedback was never provided, is interesting and important to strengthen the reported effects. Both studies have proper justifications to determine the sample size.

      Weaknesses:

      Despite the strengths, a few conceptual aspects and analytical decisions have to be explained, justified, or clarified.

      INTRODUCTION/CONCEPTUALIZATION

      (1) Two terms seem to be interchangeable, which should not, in this work: vicarious/observational learning vs preference learning. For vicarious learning, individuals observe others' actions (and optionally also the corresponding consequence resulting directly from their own actions), whereas, for preference learning, individuals predict, or act on behalf of, the others' actions, and then receive feedback if that prediction is correct or not. For the current work, it seems that the experiment is more about preference learning and prediction, and less so about vicarious learning. The intro and set are heavily around vicarious learning, and later the use of vicarious learning and preference learning is rather mixed in the text. I think either tone down the focus on vicarious learning, or discuss how they are different. Some of the references here may be helpful: (Charpentier et al., Neuron, 2020; Olsson et al., Nature Reviews Neuroscience, 2020; Zhang & Glascher, Science Advances, 2020)

      We are appreciative of the Reviewer for raising this question and providing the reference. In response to this comment we have elected to avoid, in most cases, use of the term ‘vicarious’ and instead focus the paper on learning of others’ preferences (without specific commitment to various/observational learning per se). These changes are reflected throughout all sections of the revised manuscript, and in the revised title. We believe this simplified terminology has improved the clarity of our contribution.

      EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN

      (2) For each offer type, the experiment "added a uniformly distributed noise in the range of (-10 ,10)". I wonder what this looks like? With only integers such as 25:75, or even with decimal points? More importantly, is it possible to have either 70:30 or 90:10 option, after adding the noise, to have generated an 80:20 split shown to the participants? If so, for the analyses later, when participants saw the 80:20 split, which condition did this trial belong to? 70:30 or 90:10? And is such noise added only to the learning phase, or also to the baseline/transfer phases? This requires some clarification.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing this out. The uniformly distributed noise was added to all three phases to make the proposers’ behavior more realistic. This added noise was rounded to integer numbers, constrained from -9 to 9, which means in both 70:30 and 90:10 offer types, an 80:20 split could not occur. We have made this feature of our design clear in the Method section Line 524 ~ 528:

      “In all task phases, we added uniformly distributed noise to each trial’s offer (ranging from -9 to 9, inclusive, rounding to the nearest integer) such that the random amount added (or subtracted) from the Proposer’s share was subtracted (or added) to the Receiver’s share. We adopted this manipulation to make the proposers’ behavior appear more realistic. The orders of offers participants experienced were fully randomized within each experiment phase. ”

      (3) For the offer conditions (90:10, 70:30, 50:50, 30:70, 10:90) - are they randomized? If so, how is it done? Is it randomized within each participant, and/or also across participants (such that each participant experienced different trial sequences)? This is important, as the order especially for the learning phase can largely impact the preference learning of the participants.

      We agree with the Reviewer the order in which offers are experienced could be very important. The order of the conditions was randomized independently for each participant (i.e. each participant experienced different trial sequences). We made this point clear in the Methods part. Line 527 ~ 528:

      “The orders of offers participants experienced were fully randomized within each experiment phase.”

      STATISTICAL ANALYSIS & COMPUTATIONAL MODELING

      (4) In Study 1 DI offer types (90:10, 70:30), the rejection rate for DI-AI averse looks consistently higher than that for DI averse (ie, the blue line is above the yellow line). Is this significant? If so, how come? Since this is a between-subject design, I would not anticipate such a result (especially for the baseline). Also, for the LME results (eg, Table S3), only interactions were reported but not the main results.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing out this feature of the results. Prompted by this comment, we compared the baseline rejection rates between two conditions for these two offer types, finding in Experiment 1 that rejection rates in the DI-AI-averse condition were significantly higher than in the DI-averse condition (DI-AI-averse vs. DI-averse; Offer 90:10, β = 0.13, p < 0.001, Offer 70:30, β = 0.09, p < 0.034). We agree with the Reviewer that there should, in principle, be no difference between the experiences of participants in these two conditions is identical in the Baseline phase. However, we did not observe these difference in baseline preferences in Experiment 2 (DI-AI-averse vs. DI-averse; Offer 90:10, β = 0.07, p < 0.100, Offer 70:30, β = 0.05, p < 0.193). On the basis of the inconsistency of this effect across studies we believe this is a spurious difference in preferences stemming from chance.

      Regarding the LME results, the reason why only interaction terms are reported is due to the specification of the model and the rationale for testing.

      Taking the model reported in Table S3 as an example—a logistic model which examines Baseline phase rejection rates as a function of offer level and condition—the between-subject conditions (DI-averse and DI-AI-averse) are represented by dummy-coded variables. Similarly, offer types were also dummy-coded, such that each of the five columns (90:10, 70:30, 50:50, 30:70, and 10:90) correspond corresponded to a particular offer type. This model specification yields ten interaction terms (i.e., fixed effects) of interest—for example, the “DI-averse × Offer 90:10” indicates baseline rejection rates for 90:10 offers in DI-averse condition. Thus, to compare rejection rates across specific offer types, we estimate and report linear contrasts between these resultant terms. We have clarified the nature of these reported tests in our revised Results—for example, line189-190: “linear contrasts; e.g. 90:10 vs 10:90, all Ps<0.001, see Table S3 for logistic regression coefficients for rejection rates).

      Also in response to this comment that and a recommendation from Reviewer 2 (see below), we have revised our supplementary materials to make each model specification clearer as SI line 25:

      RejectionRate ~ 0 + (Disl + Advl):(Offer10 + Offer30 + Offer50 + Offer70 + Offer90) + (1|Subject)”

      (5) I do not particularly find this analysis appealing: "we examined whether participants' changes in rejection rates between Transfer and Baseline, could be explained by the degree to which they vicariously learned, defined as the change in punishment rates between the first and last 5 trials of the Learning phase." Naturally, the participants' behavior in the first 5 trials in the learning phase will be similar to those in the baseline; and their behavior in the last 5 trials in the learning phase would echo those at the transfer phase. I think it would be stronger to link the preference learning results to the change between the baseline and transfer phase, eg, by looking at the difference between alpha (beta) at the end of the learning phase and the initial alpha (beta).

      Thanks for pointing this out. Also, considering the comments from Reviewer 2 concerning the interpretation of this analysis, we have elected to remove this result from our revision.

      (6) I wonder if data from the baseline and transfer phases can also be modeled, using a simple Fehr-Schimdt model. This way, the change in alpha/beta can also be examined between the baseline and transfer phase.

      We agree with the Reviewer that a simplified F-S model could be used, in principle, to characterize Baseline and Transfer phase behavior, but it is our view that the rejection rates provide readers with the clearest (and simplest) picture of how participants are responding to inequity. Put another way, we believe that the added complexity of using (and explaining) a new model to characterize simple, steady-state choice behavior (within these phases) would not be justified or add appreciable insights about participants’ behavior.

      (7) I quite liked Study 2 which tests the generalization effect, and I expected to see an adapted computational modeling to directly reflect this idea. Indeed, the authors wrote, "[...] given that this model [...] assumes the sort of generalization of preferences between offer types [...]". But where exactly did the preference learning model assume the generalization? In the methods, the modeling seems to be only about Study 1; did the authors advise their model to accommodate Study 2? The authors also ran simulation for the learning phase in Study 2 (Figure 6), and how did the preference update (if at all) for offers (90:10 and 10:90) where feedback was not given? Extending/Unpacking the computational modeling results for Study 2 will be very helpful for the paper.

      We are appreciative of the Reviewer’s positive impression of Experiment 2. Upon reflection, we realize that our original submission was not clear about the modeling done in Experiment 2, and we should clarify here that we did also fit the Preference Inference model to this dataset. As in Experiment 1, this model assumes that the participants have a representation of the teacher’s preference as a Fehr-Schmidt form utility function and infer the Teacher’s Envy and Guilt parameters through learning. The model indicates that, on the basis of experience with the Teacher’s preferences on moderately unfair offers (i.e., offer 70:30 and offer 30:70), participants can successfully infer these guess of these two parameters, and in turn, compute Fehr-Schmidt utility to guide their decisions in the extreme unfair offers (i.e., offer 90:10 and offer 10:90).

      In response to this comment, we have made this clearer in our Results (Line 377-382):

      “Finally, following Experiment 1, we fit a series of computational models of Learning phase choice behavior, comparing the goodness-of-fit of the four best-fitting models from Experiment 1 (see Methods). As before, we found that the Preference Inference model provided the best fit of participants’ Learning Phase behavior (Figure S1a, Table S12). Given that this model is able to infer the Teacher’s underlying inequity-averse preferences (rather than learns offer-specific rejection preferences), it is unsurprising that this model best describes the generalization behavior observed in Experiment 2.”

      and in our revised Methods (Line 551-553)

      “We considered 6 computational models of Learning Phase choice behavior, which we fit to individual participants’ observed sequences of choices, in both Experiments 1 and 2, via Maximum Likelihood Estimation”

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates whether individuals can learn to adopt egalitarian norms that incur a personal monetary cost, such as rejecting offers that benefit them more than the giver (advantageous inequitable offers). While these behaviors are uncommon, two experiments demonstrate that individuals can learn to reject such offers through vicarious learning - by observing and acting in line with a "teacher" who follows these norms. The authors use computational modelling to argue that learners adopt these norms through a sophisticated process, inferring the latent structure of the teacher's preferences, akin to theory of mind.

      Strengths:

      This paper is well-written and tackles a critical topic relevant to social norms, morality, and justice. The findings, which show that individuals can adopt just and fair norms even at a personal cost, are promising. The study is well-situated in the literature, with clever experimental design and a computational approach that may offer insights into latent cognitive processes. Findings have potential implications for policymakers.

      Weaknesses:

      Note: in the text below, the "teacher" will refer to the agent from which a participant presumably receives feedback during the learning phase.

      (1) Focus on Disadvantageous Inequity (DI): A significant portion of the paper focuses on responses to Disadvantageous Inequitable (DI) offers, which is confusing given the study's primary aim is to examine learning in response to Advantageous Inequitable (AI) offers. The inclusion of DI offers is not well-justified and distracts from the main focus. Furthermore, the experimental design seems, in principle, inadequate to test for the learning effects of DI offers. Because both teaching regimes considered were identical for DI offers the paradigm lacks a control condition to test for learning effects related to these offers. I can't see how an increase in rejection of DI offers (e.g., between baseline and generalization) can be interpreted as speaking to learning. There are various other potential reasons for an increase in rejection of DI offers even if individuals learn nothing from learning (e.g. if envy builds up during the experiment as one encounters more instances of disadvantageous fairness).

      We are appreciative of the Reviewer’s insight here and for the opportunity to clarify our experimental logic. We included DI offers in order to 1) expose participants to the full spectrum of offer types, and avoid focusing participants exclusively upon AI offers, which might result in a demand characteristic and 2) to afford exploration of how learning dynamics might differ in DI context s—which was, to some extent, examined in our previous study (FeldmanHall, Otto, & Phelps, 2018)—versus AI contexts. Furthermore, as this work builds critically on our previous study, we reasoned that replicating these original findings (in the DI context) would be important for demonstrating the generality of the learning effects in the DI context across experimental settings. We now remark on this point in our revised Introduction Line 129 ~132:

      “In addition, to mechanistically probe how punitive preferences are acquired in Adv-I and Dis-I contexts—in turn, assessing the replicability of our earlier study investigating punitive preference acquisition in the Dis context—we also characterize trial-by-trial acquisition of punitive behavior with computational models of choice.”

      (2) Statistical Analysis: The analysis of the learning effects of AI offers is not fully convincing. The authors analyse changes in rejection rates within each learning condition rather than directly comparing the two. Finding a significant effect in one condition but not the other does not demonstrate that the learning regime is driving the effect. A direct comparison between conditions is necessary for establishing that there is a causal role for the learning regime.

      We agree with the Reviewer and upon reflection, believe that direct comparisons between conditions would be helpful to support the claim that the different learning conditions are responsible for the observed learning effects. In brief, these specific tests buttress the idea that exposure to AI-averse preferences result in increases in AI punishment rates in the Transfer phase (over and above the rates observed for participants who were only exposed to DI-averse preferences).

      Accordingly, our revision now reports statistics concerning the differences between conditions for AI offers in Experiment 1 (Line 198~ 207):

      “Importantly, when comparing these changes between the two learning conditions, we observed significant differences in rejection rates for Adv-I offers: compared to exposure to a Teacher who rejected only Dis-I offers, participants exposed to a Teacher who rejected both Dis-I and Adv-I offers were more likely to reject Adv-I offers and rated these offers more unfair. This difference between conditions was evident in both 30:70 offers (Rejection rates: β(SE) = 0.10(0.04), p = 0.013; Fairness ratings: β(SE) = -0.86(0.17), p < 0.001) and 10:90 offers (Rejection rates: β(SE) = 0.15(0.04), p < 0.001, Fairness ratings: β(SE) = -1.04(0.17), p < 0.001). As a control, we also compared rejection rates and fairness rating changes between conditions in Dis-I offers (90:10 and 30:70) and Fair offers (i.e., 50:50) but observed no significant difference (all ps > 0.217), suggesting that observing an Adv-I-averse Teacher’s preferences did not influence participants’ behavior in response to Dis-I offers.”

      Line 222 ~ 230:

      “A mixed-effects logistic regression revealed a significant larger (positive) effect of trial number on rejection rates of Adv-I offers for the Adv-Dis-I-Averse condition compared to the Dis-I-Averse condition. This relative rejection rate increase was evident both in 30:70 offers (Table S7; β(SE) = -0.77(0.24), p < 0.001) and in 10:90 offers (β(SE) = -1.10(0.33), p < 0.001). In contrast, comparing Dis-I and Fairness offers when the Teacher showed the same tendency to reject, we found no significant difference between the two conditions (90:10 splits: β(SE)=-0.48(0.21),p=0.593;70:30 splits: β(SE)=-0.01(0.14),p=0.150; 50:50 splits: β(SE)=-0.00(0.21),p=0.086). In other words, participants by and large appeared to adjust their rejection choices in accordance with the Teacher’s feedback in an incremental fashion.”

      And in Experiment 2 Line 333 ~ 345:

      “Similar to what we observed in Experiment 1 (Figure 4a), Compared to the participants in the Dis-I-Averse Condition, participants in the Adv-I-Averse Condition increased their rates of rejection of extreme Adv-I offerers (i.e., 10:90) in the Transfer Phase, relative to the Baseline phase (β(SE) = -0.12(0.04), p < 0.004; Table S9), suggesting that participants’ learned (and adopted) Adv-I-averse preferences, generalized from one specific offer type (30:70) to an offer types for which they received no Teacher feedback (10:90). Examining extreme Dis-I offers where the Teacher exhibited identical preferences across the two learning conditions, we found no difference in the Changes of Rejection Rates from Baseline to Transfer phase between conditions (β(SE) = -0.05(0.04), p < 0.259). Mirroring the observed rejection rates (Figure 4b), relative to the Dis-I-Averse Condition, participants’ fairness ratings for extreme Adv-I offers increased more from the Baseline to Transfer phase in the Adv-Dis-I-Averse Condition than in the Dis-I-Averse condition (β(SE) = -0.97(0.18), p < 0.001), but, importantly, changes in fairness ratings for extreme Dis-I offers did not differ significantly between learning conditions (β(SE) = -0.06(0.18), p < 0.723)”

      Line 361 ~ 368:

      “Examining the time course of rejection rates in Adv-I-contexts during the Learning phase (Figure 5) revealed that participants learned over time to punish mildly unfair 30:70 offers, and these punishment preferences generalized to more extreme offers (10:90). Specifically, compared to the Dis-I-Averse Condition, in the Adv-Dis-I-Averse condition we observed a significant larger trend of increase in rejections rates for 10:90 (Adv-I) offers (Figure 5, β(SE) = -0.81(0.26), p < 0.002 mixed-effects logistic regression, see Table S10). Again, when comparing the rejection rate increase in the extremely Dis-I offers (90:10), we didn’t find significant difference between conditions (β(SE) = -0.25(0.19), p < 0.707).”

      (3) Correlation Between Learning and Contagion Effects:

      The authors argue that correlations between learning effects (changes in rejection rates during the learning phase) and contagion effects (changes between the generalization and baseline phases) support the idea that individuals who are better aligning their preferences with the teacher also give more consideration to the teacher's preferences later during generalization phase. This interpretation is not convincing. Such correlations could emerge even in the absence of learning, driven by temporal trends like increasing guilt or envy (or even by slow temporal fluctuations in these processes) on behalf of self or others. The reason is that the baseline phase is temporally closer to the beginning of the learning phase whereas the generalization phase is temporally closer to the end of the learning phase. Additionally, the interpretation of these effects seems flawed, as changes in rejection rates do not necessarily indicate closer alignment with the teacher's preferences. For example, if the teacher rejects an offer 75% of the time then a positive 5% learning effect may imply better matching the teacher if it reflects an increase in rejection rate from 65% to 70%, but it implies divergence from the teacher if it reflects an increase from 85% to 90%. For similar reasons, it is not clear that the contagion effects reflect how much a teacher's preferences are taken into account during generalization.

      This comment is very similar to a previous comment made by Reviewer 1, who also called into question the interpretability of these correlations. In response to both of these comments we have elected to remove these analyses from our revision.

      (4) Modeling Efforts: The modelling approach is underdeveloped. The identification of the "best model" lacks transparency, as no model-recovery results are provided, and fits for the losing models are not shown, leaving readers in the dark about where these models fail. Moreover, the reinforcement learning (RL) models used are overly simplistic, treating actions as independent when they are likely inversely related (for example, the feedback that the teacher would have rejected an offer provides feedback that rejection is "correct" but also that acceptance is "an error", and the later is not incorporated into the modelling). It is unclear if and to what extent this limits current RL formulations. There are also potentially important missing details about the models. Can the authors justify/explain the reasoning behind including these variants they consider? What are the initial Q-values? If these are not free parameters what are their values?

      We are appreciative of the Reviewer for identifying these potentially unaddressed questions.

      The RL models we consider in the present study are naïve models which, in our previous study (FeldmanHall, Otto, & Phelps, 2018), we found to capture important aspects of learning. While simplistic, we believed these models serve as a reasonable baseline for evaluating more complex models, such as the Preference Inference model. We have made this point more explicit in our revised Introduction, Line 129 ~ 132:

      “In addition, to mechanistically probe how punitive preferences may be acquired in Adv-I and Dis-I contexts—in turn, assessing the replicability of our earlier study investigating punitive preference acquisition in the Dis-I context—we also characterize trial-by-trial acquisition of punitive behavior with computational models of choice.”

      Again, following from our previous modeling of observational learning (FeldmanHall et al., 2018), we believe that the feedback the Teacher provides here is ideally suited to the RL formalism. In particular, when the teacher indicates that the participant’s choice is what they would have preferred, the model receives a reward of ‘1’ (e.g., the participant rejects and the Teacher indicates they would preferred rejection, resulting in a positive prediction error) otherwise, the model receives a reward of ‘0’ (e.g., the participant accepts and the Teacher indicates they would preferred rejection, resulting in a negative prediction error), indicating that the participant did not choose in accordance with the Teacher’s preferences. Through an error driven learning process, these models provide a naïve way of learning to act in accordance with the Teacher’s preferences.

      Regarding the requested model details: When treating the initial values as free parameters (model 5), we set Q(reject, offertype) as free values in [0,1] and Q(accept,offertype) as 0.5. This setting can capture participants' initial tendency to reject or accept offers from this offer type. When the initial values are fixed, for all offer types we set Q(reject, offertype) = Q(accept,offertype) = 0.5. In practice, when the initial values are fixed, setting them to 0.5 or 0 doesn’t make much difference. We have clarified these points in our revised Methods, Line 275 ~ 576:

      “We kept the initial values fixed in this model, that is Q<sub>0</sub>(reject,offertype) =0.5, (offertype ∈ 90:10, 70:30, 50:50, 30:70, 10:90)”

      And Line 582 ~ 584:

      “Formally, this model treats Q<sub>0</sub>(reject,offertype) =0.5, (offertype ∈ 90:10, 70:30, 50:50, 30:70, 10:90) as free parameters with values between 0 and 1.”

      (5) Conceptual Leap in Modeling Interpretation: The distinction between simple RL models and preference-inference models seems to hinge on the ability to generalize learning from one offer to another. Whereas in the RL models learning occurs independently for each offer (hence to cross-offer generalization), preference inference allows for generalization between different offers. However, the paper does not explore RL models that allow generalization based on the similarity of features of the offers (e.g., payment for the receiver, payment for the offer-giver, who benefits more). Such models are more parsimonious and could explain the results without invoking a theory of mind or any modelling of the teacher. In such model versions, a learner learns a functional form that allows to predict the teacher's feedback based on said offer features (e.g., linear or quadratic form). Because feedback for an offer modulates the parameters of this function (feature weights) generalization occurs without necessarily evoking any sophisticated model of the other person. This leaves open the possibility that RL models could perform just as well or even show superiority over the preference learning model, casting doubt on the authors' conclusions. Of note: even the behaviourists knew that as Little Albert was taught to fear rats, this fear generalized to rabbits. This could occur simply because rabbits are somewhat similar to rats. But this doesn't mean little Alfred had a sophisticated model of animals he used to infer how they behave.

      We are appreciative of the Reviewer for their suggestion of an alternative explanation for the observed generalization effects. Our understanding of the suggestion, put simply, put simply, is that an RL model could capture the observed generalization effects if the model were to learn and update a functional form of the Teacher’s rejection preferences using an RL-like algorithm. This idea is similar, conceptually to our account of preference learning whereby the learner has a representation of the teacher’s preferences. In our experiment the offer is in the range of [0-100], the crux of this idea is why the participants should take the functional form (either v-shaped or quadratic) with the minimum at 50. This is important because, at the beginning of the learning phase, the rejection rates are already v-shaped with 50 as its minimum. The participants do not need to adjust the minimum of this functional form. Thus, if we assume that the participants represent the teacher’s rejection rate as a v-shape function with a minimum at [50,50], then this very likely implies that the participants have a representation that the teacher has a preference for fairness. Above all, we agree that with suitable setup of the functional form, one could implement an RL model to capture the generalization effects, without presupposing an internal “model” of the teacher’s preferences.

      However, there is another way of modeling the generalization effect by truly “model-free” similarity-based Reinforcement learning. In this approach, we do not assume any particular functional form of the teacher’s preferences, but rather, assumes that experience acquired in one offer type can be generalized to offers that are close (i.e., similar) to the original offer. Accordingly, we implement this idea using a simple RL model in which the action values for each offer type is updated by a learning rate that is scaled by the distance between that offer and the experienced offer (i.e., the offer that generated the prediction error). This learning rate is governed by a Gaussian distribution, similar to the case in the Gaussian process regression (cf. Chulz, Speekenbrink, & Krause, 2018). The initial value of the ‘Reject’ action, for each offer , is set to a free parameter between 0 and 1, and the initial value for the 'Accept’ action was set to 0.5. The results show that even though this model exhibits the trend of increasing rejection rates observed in the AI-DI punish condition, the initial preferences (i.e., starting point of learning) diverges markedly from the Learning phase behavior we observed in Experiment 1:

      Author response image 1.

      This demonstrated that the participant at least maintains a representation of the teacher’s preference at the beginning. That is, they have prior knowledge about the shape of this preference. We incorporated this property into the model, that is, we considered a new model that assumes v-shaped starting values for rejection with two parameters, alpha and beta, governing the slope of this v-shaped function (this starting value actually mimics the shape of the preference functions of the Fehr-Schmidt model). We found that this new model (which we term the “Model RL Sim Vstart”) provided a satisfactory qualitative fit of the Transfer phase learning curves in Experiment 1 (see below).

      Author response image 2.

      However, we didn’t adopt this model as the best model for the following reasons. First, this model yielded a larger AIC value (indicating worse quantitative fit) compared to our preference Inference model in both Experiments 1 and 2, likely owing to its increased complexity (5 free parameters versus 4 in the Preference Inference model). Accordingly, we believe that inclusion of this model in our revised submission would be more distracting than helpful on account of the added complexity of explaining and justifying these assumptions, and of course its comparatively poor goodness of fit (relative to the preference inference model).

      (6) Limitations of the Preference-Inference Model: The preference-inference model struggles to capture key aspects of the data, such as the increase in rejection rates for 70:30 DI offers during the learning phase (e.g. Figure 3A, AI+DI blue group). This is puzzling.

      Thinking about this I realized the model makes quite strong unintuitive predictions that are not examined. For example, if a subject begins the learning phase rejecting the 70:30 offer more than 50% of the time (meaning the starting guilt parameter is higher than 1.5), then overleaning the tendency to reject will decrease to below 50% (the guilt parameter will be pulled down below 1.5). This is despite the fact the teacher rejects 75% of the offers. In other words, as learning continues learners will diverge from the teacher. On the other hand, if a participant begins learning to tend to accept this offer (guilt < 1.5) then during learning they can increase their rejection rate but never above 50%. Thus one can never fully converge on the teacher. I think this relates to the model's failure in accounting for the pattern mentioned above. I wonder if individuals actually abide by these strict predictions. In any case, these issues raise questions about the validity of the model as a representation of how individuals learn to align with a teacher's preferences (given that the model doesn't really allow for such an alignment).

      In response to this comment we explain our efforts to build a new model that might be able conceptually resolves the issue identified by the Reviewer.

      The key intuition guiding the Preference inference model is a Bayesian account of learning which we aimed to further simplify. In this setting, a Bayesian learner maintains a representation of the teacher’s inequity aversion parameters and updates it according to the teacher’s (observed) behavior. Intuitively, the posterior distribution shifts to the likelihood of the teacher’s action. On this view, when the teacher rejects, for instance, an AI offer, the learner should assign a higher probability to larger values of the Guilt parameter, and in turn the learner should change their posterior estimate to better capture the teacher’s preferences.

      In the current study, we simplified this idea, implementing this sort of learning using incremental “delta rule” updating (e.g. Equation 8 of the main text). Then the key question is to define the “teaching signal”. Assuming that the teacher rejects an offer 70:30, based on Bayesian reasoning, the teacher’s envy parameter (α) is more likely to exceed 1.5 (computed as 30/(50-30), per equation 7) than to be smaller than 1.5. Thus, 1.5, which is then used in equation 8 to update α, can be thought of as a teaching signal. We simply assumed that if the initial estimate is already greater than 1.5, which means the prior is consistent with the likelihood, no updating would occur. This assumption raises the question of how to set the learning rate range. In principle, an envy parameter that is larger than 1.5 should be the target of learning (i.e., the teaching signal), and thus our model definition allows the learning rate to be greater than 1, incorporating this possibility.

      Our simplified preference inference model has already successfully captured some key aspects of the participants’ learning behavior. However, it may fail in the following case: assume that the participant has an initial estimate of 1.51 for the envy parameter (β). Let’s say this corresponds to a rejection rate of 60%. Thus, no matter how many times the teacher rejects the offer 70:30, the participant’s estimate of the envy parameter remains the same, but observing only one offer acceptance would decrease this estimate, and in turn, would decrease the model’s predicted rejection rate. We believe this is the anomalous behavior—in 70:30 offers—identified by the Reviewer which the model does not appear able to recreate participants’ in these offers.

      This issue actually touches the core of our model specification, that is, the choosing of the teaching signal. As we chose 1.5 as the teaching signal—i.e. lower bound on whenever the teacher rejects or accepts an offer of 70:30, a very small deviation of 1.5 would fail one part of updating. One way to mitigate this problem would be to choose a lower bound for α greater than 1.5, such that when the Teacher rejects a 70:30 offer, we assign a number greater than 1.5 (by ‘hard-coding’ this into the model via modification of equation 7). One sensible candidate value could be the middle point between 1.5 and 10 (the maximum value of α per our model definition). Intuitively, the model of this setting could still pull up the value of α to 1.51 when the teacher rejects 70:30, thus alleviating (but not completely eliminating) the anomaly.

      We fitted this modified Preference Inference model to the data from Experiment 1 (see Author response image 3 below) and found that even though this model has a smaller AIC (and thus better quantitative fit than the original Preference Inference model), it still doesn’t fully capture the participants’ behavior for 70:30 offers.

      Author response image 3.

      Accordingly, rather than revising our model to include an unprincipled ‘kludge’ to account for this minor anomaly in the model behavior, we have opted to report our original model in our revision as we still believe it parsimoniously captures our intuitions about preference learning and provides a better fit to the observed behavior than the other RL models considered in the present study.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I do not particularly prefer the acronyms AI and DI for disadvantageous inequity and advantageous inequity. Although they have been used in the literature, not every single paper uses them. More importantly, AI these days has such a strong meaning of artificial intelligence, so when I was reading this, I'd need to very actively inhibit this interpretation. I believe for the readability for a wider readership of eLife, I would advise not to use AI/DI here, but rather use the full terms.

      We thank the Reviewer for this suggestion. As the full spelling of the two terms are somewhat lengthy, and appear frequently in the figures, we have elected to change the abbreviations for disadvantageous inequity and advantageous inequity to Dis-I and Adv-I, respectively in the main text and the supplementary information. We still use AI/DI in the response letter to make the terminology consistent.

      (2) Do "punishment rate" and "rejection rate" mean the same? If so, it would be helpful to stick with one single term, eg, rejection rate.

      We thank the Reviewer for this suggestion. As these terms have the same meaning, we have opted to use the term “rejection rate” throughout the main text.

      (3) For the linear mixed effect models, were other random effect structures also considered (eg, random slops of experimental conditions)? It might be worth considering a few model specifications and selecting the best one to explain the data.

      Thanks for this comment. Following established best practices (Barr, Levy, Scheepers, & Tily, 2013) we have elected to use a maximal random effects structure, whereby all possible predictor variables in the fixed effects structure also appear in the random effects structure.

      (4) For equation (4), the softmax temperature is denoted as tau, but later in the text, it is called gamma. Please make it consistent.

      We are appreciative of the Reviewer’s attention to detail. We have corrected this error.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Several Tables in SI are unclear. I wasn't clear if these report raw probabilities of coefficients of mixed models. For any mixed models, it would help to give the model specification (e.g., Walkins form) and explain how variables were coded.

      We are appreciative of the Reviewer’s attention to detail. We have clarified, in the captions accompanying our supplemental regression tables, that these coefficients represent log-odds. Regretfully we are unaware of the “Walkins form” the Reviewer references (even after extensive searching of the scientific literature). However, in our new revision we do include lme4 model syntax in our supplemental information which we believe will be helpful for readers seeking replicate our model specification.

      (2) In one of the models it was said that the guilt and envy parameters were bounded between 0-1 but this doesn't make sense and I think values outside this range were later reported.

      We are again appreciative of the Reviewer’s attention to detail. This was an error we have corrected— the actual range is [0,10].

      (3) It is unclear if the model parameters are recoverable.

      In response to this comment our revision now reports a basic parameter recovery analysis for the winning Preference Inference model. This is reported in our revised Methods:

      “Finally, to verify if the free parameters of the winning model (Preference Inference) are recoverable, we simulated 200 artificial subjects, based on the Learning Phase of Experiment 1, with free parameters randomly chosen (uniformly) from their defined ranges. We then employed the same model-fitting procedure as described above to estimate these parameter value, observing that parameters. We found that all parameters of the model can be recovered (see Figure S2).”

      And scatter plots depicting these simulated (versus recovered) parameters are given in Figure S2 of our revised Supplementary Information:

      (4) I was confused about what Figure S2 shows. The text says this is about correlating contagious effects for different offers but the captions speak about learning effects. This is an important aspect which is unclear.

      We have removed this figure in response to both Reviewers’ comments about the limited insights that can be drawn on the basis of these correlations.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      To the Senior Editor and the Reviewing Editor:

      We sincerely appreciate the valuable comments provided by the reviewers, the reviewing editor, and the senior editor. Based on our last response and revision, we are confused by the two limitations noted in the eLife assessment. 

      (1) benchmarking against comparable methods is limited.

      In our last revision, we added the comparison experiments with TNDM, as the reviewers requested. Additionally, it is crucial to emphasize that our evaluation of decoding capabilities of behaviorally relevant signals has been benchmarked against the performance of the ANN on raw signals, which, as Reviewer #1 previously noted, nearly represents the upper limit of performance. Consequently, we believe that our benchmarking methods are sufficiently strong.

      (2) some observations may be a byproduct of their method, and may not constitute new scientific observations.

      We believe that our experimental results are sufficient to demonstrate that our conclusions are not byproducts of d-VAE based on three reasons:

      (1) The d-VAE, as a latent variable model, adheres to the population doctrine, which posits that latent variables are responsible for generating the activities of individual neurons. The goal of such models is to maximize the explanation of the raw signals. At the signal level, the only criterion we can rely on is neural reconstruction performance, in which we have achieved unparalleled results. Thus, it is inappropriate to focus on the mixing process during the model's inference stage while overlooking the crucial de-mixing process during the generation stage and dismissing the significance of our neural reconstruction results. For more details, please refer to the first point in our response to Q4 from Reviewer #4.

      (2) The criterion that irrelevant signals should contain minimal information can effectively demonstrate that our conclusions are not by-products of d-VAE. Unfortunately, the reviewers seem to have overlooked this criterion. For more details, please refer to the third point in our response to Q4 from Reviewer #4

      (3) Our synthetic experimental results also substantiate that our conclusions are not byproducts of d-VAE. However, it appears the reviewers did not give these results adequate consideration. For more details, please refer to the fourth point in our response to Q4 from Reviewer #4.

      Furthermore, our work presents not just "a useful method" but a comprehensive framework. Our study proposes, for the first time, a framework for defining, extracting, and validating behaviorally relevant signals. In our current revision, to clearly distinguish between d-VAE and other methods, we have formalized the extraction of behaviorally relevant signals into a mathematical optimization problem. To our knowledge, current methods have not explicitly proposed extracting behaviorally relevant signals, nor have they identified and addressed the key challenges of extracting relevant signals. Similarly, existing research has not yet defined and validated behaviorally relevant signals. For more details, please refer to our response to Q1 from Reviewer #4.

      Based on these considerations, we respectfully request that you reconsider the eLife assessment of our work. We greatly appreciate your time and attention to this matter.

      The main revisions made to the manuscript are as follows:

      (1) We have formalized the extraction of behaviorally relevant signals into a mathematical optimization problem, enabling a clearer distinction between d-VAE and other models.

      (2) We have moderated the assertion about linear readout to highlight its conjectural nature and have broadened the discussion regarding this conclusion. 

      (3) We have elaborated on the model details of d-VAE and have removed the identifiability claim.

      To Reviewer #1

      Q1: “As reviewer 3 also points out, I would, however, caution to interpret this as evidence for linear read-out of the motor system - your model performs a non-linear transformation, and while this is indeed linearly decodable, the motor system would need to do something similar first to achieve the same. In fact to me it seems to show the opposite, that behaviour-related information may not be generally accessible to linear decoders (including to down-stream brain areas).”

      Thank you for your comments. It's important to note that the conclusions we draw are speculative and not definitive. We use terms like "suggest" to reflect this uncertainty. To further emphasize the conjectural nature of our conclusions, we have deliberately moderated our tone.

      The question of whether behaviorally-relevant signals can be accessed by linear decoders or downstream brain regions hinges on the debate over whether the brain employs a strategy of filtering before decoding. If the brain employs such a strategy, the brain can probably access these signals. In our opinion, it is likely that the brain utilizes this strategy.

      Given the existence of behaviorally relevant signals, it is reasonable to assume that the brain has intrinsic mechanisms to differentiate between relevant and irrelevant signals. There is growing evidence suggesting that the brain utilizes various mechanisms, such as attention and specialized filtering, to suppress irrelevant signals and enhance relevant signals [1-3]. Therefore, it is plausible that the brain filters before decoding, thereby effectively accessing behaviorally relevant signals.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      (1) Sreenivasan, Sameet, and Ila Fiete. "Grid cells generate an analog error-correcting code for singularly precise neural computation." Nature neuroscience 14.10 (2011): 1330-1337.

      (2) Schneider, David M., Janani Sundararajan, and Richard Mooney. "A cortical filter that learns to suppress the acoustic consequences of movement." Nature 561.7723 (2018): 391-395.

      (3) Nakajima, Miho, L. Ian Schmitt, and Michael M. Halassa. "Prefrontal cortex regulates sensory filtering through a basal ganglia-to-thalamus pathway." Neuron 103.3 (2019): 445-458.

      Q2: “As in my initial review, I would also caution against making strong claims about identifiability although this work and TNDM seem to show that in practise such methods work quite well. CEBRA, in contrast, offers some theoretical guarantees, but it is not a generative model, so would not allow the type of analysis done in this paper. In your model there is a para,eter \alpha to balance between neural and behaviour reconstruction. This seems very similar to TNDM and has to be optimised - if this is correct, then there is manual intervention required to identify a good model.”

      Thank you for your comments. 

      Considering your concerns about our identifiability claims and the fact that identifiability is not directly relevant to the core of our paper, we have removed content related to identifiability.

      Firstly, our model is based on the pi-VAE, which also has theoretical guarantees. However, it is important to note that all such theoretical guarantees (including pi-VAE and CEBRA) are based on certain assumptions that cannot be validated as the true distribution of latent variables remains unknown.

      Secondly, it is important to clarify that the identifiability of latent variables does not impact the conclusions of this paper, nor does this paper make specific conclusions about the model's latent variables. Identifiability means that distinct latent variables correspond to distinct observations. If multiple latent variables can generate the same observation, it becomes impossible to determine which one is correct given the observation, which leads to the issue of nonidentifiability. Notably, our analysis focuses on the generated signals, not the latent variables themselves, and thus the identifiability of these variables does not affect our findings. 

      Our approach, dedicated to extracting these signals, distinctly differs from methods such as TNDM, which focuses on extracting behaviorally relevant latent dynamics. To clearly set apart d-VAE from other models, we have framed the extraction of behaviorally relevant signals as the following mathematical optimization problem:

      where 𝑥# denotes generated behaviorally-relevant signals, 𝑥 denotes raw noisy signals, 𝐸(⋅,⋅) demotes reconstruction loss, and 𝑅(⋅) denotes regularization loss. It is important to note that while both d-VAE and TNDM employ reconstruction loss, relying solely on this term is insufficient for determining the optimal degree of similarity between the generated and raw noisy signals. The key to accurately extracting behaviorally relevant signals lies in leveraging prior knowledge about these signals to determine the optimal similarity degree, encapsulated by 𝑅(𝒙𝒓).  Other studies have not explicitly proposed extracting behaviorally-relevant signals, nor have they identified and addressed the key challenges involved in extracting relevant signals. Consequently, our approach is distinct from other methods.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q3: “Somewhat related, I also found that the now comprehensive comparison with related models shows that the using decoding performance (R2) as a metric for model comparison may be problematic: the R2 values reported in Figure 2 (e.g. the MC_RTT dataset) should be compared to the values reported in the neural latent benchmark, which represent well-tuned models (e.g. AutoLFADS). The numbers (difficult to see, a table with numbers in the appendix would be useful, see: https://eval.ai/web/challenges/challenge-page/1256/leaderboard) seem lower than what can be obtained with models without latent space disentanglement. While this does not necessarily invalidate the conclusions drawn here, it shows that decoding performance can depend on a variety of model choices, and may not be ideal to discriminate between models. I'm also surprised by the low neural R2 for LFADS I assume this is condition-averaged) - LFADS tends to perform very well on this metric.”

      Thank you for your comments. The dataset we utilized is not from the same day as the neural latent benchmark dataset. Notably, there is considerable variation in the length of trials within the RTT paradigm, and the dataset lacks explicit trial information, rendering trial-averaging unsuitable. Furthermore, behaviorally relevant signals are not static averages devoid of variability; even behavioral data exhibits variability. We computed the neural R2 using individual trials rather than condition-averaged responses. 

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q4: “One statement I still cannot follow is how the prior of the variational distribution is modelled. You say you depart from the usual Gaussian prior, but equation 7 seems to suggest there is a normal prior. Are the parameters of this distribution learned? As I pointed out earlier, I however suspect this may not matter much as you give the prior a very low weight. I also still am not sure how you generate a sample from the variational distribution, do you just draw one for each pass?”

      Thank you for your questions.

      The conditional distribution of prior latent variables 𝑝%(𝒛|𝒚) is a Gaussian distribution, but the distribution of prior latent variables 𝑝(𝒛) is a mixture Gaussian distribution. The distribution of prior latent variables 𝑝(𝒛) is:

      where denotes the empirical distribution of behavioral variables

      𝒚, and 𝑁 denotes the number of samples, 𝒚(𝒊) denotes the 𝒊th sample, δ(⋅) denotes the Dirac delta function, and 𝑝%(𝒛|𝒚) denotes the conditional distribution of prior latent variables given the behavioral variables parameterized by network 𝑚. Based on the above equation, we can see that 𝑝(𝒛) is not a Gaussian distribution, it is a Gaussian mixture model with 𝑁 components, which is theoretically a universal approximator of continuous probability densities.

      Learning this prior is important, as illustrated by our latent variable visualizations, which are not a Gaussian distribution. Upon conducting hypothesis testing for both latent variables and behavioral variables, neither conforms to Gaussian distribution (Lilliefors test and Kolmogorov-Smirnov test). Consequently, imposing a constraint on the latent variables towards N(0,1) is expected to affect performance adversely.

      Regarding sampling, during training process, we draw only one sample from the approximate posterior distribution . It is worth noting that drawing multiple samples or one sample for each pass does not affect the experimental results. After training, we can generate a sample from the prior by providing input behavioral data 𝒚(𝒊) and then generating corresponding samples via and . To extract behaviorally-relevant signals from raw signals, we use and .

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q5: “(1) I found the figures good and useful, but the text is, in places, not easy to follow. I think the manuscript could be shortened somewhat, and in some places more concise focussed explanations would improve readability.

      (2) I would not call the encoding "complex non-linear" - non-linear is a clear term, but complex can mean many things (e.g. is a quadratic function complex?) ”

      Thank you for your recommendation. We have revised the manuscript for enhanced clarity.  We call the encoding “complex nonlinear” because neurons encode information with varying degrees of nonlinearity, as illustrated in Fig. 3b, f, and Fig. S3b.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      To Reviewer #2

      Q1: “I still remain unconvinced that the core findings of the paper are "unexpected". In the response to my previous Specific Comment #1, they say "We use the term 'unexpected' due to the disparity between our findings and the prior understanding concerning neural encoding and decoding." However, they provide no citations or grounding for why they make those claims. What prior understanding makes it unexpected that encoding is more complex than decoding given the entropy, sparseness, and high dimensionality of neural signals (the "encoding") compared to the smoothness and low dimensionality of typical behavioural signals (the "decoding")?” 

      Thank you for your comments. We believe that both the complexity of neural encoding and the simplicity of neural decoding in motor cortex are unexpected.

      The Complexity of Neural Encoding: As noted in the Introduction, neurons with small R2 values were traditionally considered noise and consequently disregarded, as detailed in references [1-3]. However, after filtering out irrelevant signals, we discovered that these neurons actually contain substantial amounts of behavioral information, previously unrecognized. Similarly, in population-level analyses, neural signals composed of small principal components (PCs) are often dismissed as noise, with analyses typically utilizing only between 6 and 18 PCs [4-10]. Yet, the discarded PC signals nonlinearly encode significant amounts of information, with practically useful dimensions found to range between 30 and 40—far exceeding the usual number analyzed. These findings underscore the complexity of neural encoding and are unexpected.

      The Simplicity of Neural Decoding: In the motor cortex, nonlinear decoding of raw signals has been shown to significantly outperform linear decoding, as evidenced in references [11,12]. Interestingly, after separating behaviorally relevant and irrelevant signals, we observed that the linear decoding performance of behaviorally relevant signals is nearly equivalent to that of nonlinear decoding—a phenomenon previously undocumented in the motor cortex. This discovery is also unexpected.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      (1) Georgopoulos, Apostolos P., Andrew B. Schwartz, and Ronald E. Kettner. "Neuronal population coding of movement direction." Science 233.4771 (1986): 1416-1419.

      (2) Hochberg, Leigh R., et al. "Reach and grasp by people with tetraplegia using a neurally controlled robotic arm." Nature 485.7398 (2012): 372-375. 

      (3) Inoue, Yoh, et al. "Decoding arm speed during reaching." Nature communications 9.1 (2018): 5243.

      (4) Churchland, Mark M., et al. "Neural population dynamics during reaching." Nature 487.7405 (2012): 51-56.

      (5) Kaufman, Matthew T., et al. "Cortical activity in the null space: permitting preparation without movement." Nature neuroscience 17.3 (2014): 440-448.

      (6) Elsayed, Gamaleldin F., et al. "Reorganization between preparatory and movement population responses in motor cortex." Nature communications 7.1 (2016): 13239.

      (7) Sadtler, Patrick T., et al. "Neural constraints on learning." Nature 512.7515 (2014): 423426.

      (8) Golub, Matthew D., et al. "Learning by neural reassociation." Nature neuroscience 21.4 (2018): 607-616.

      (9) Gallego, Juan A., et al. "Cortical population activity within a preserved neural manifold underlies multiple motor behaviors." Nature communications 9.1 (2018): 4233.

      (10) Gallego, Juan A., et al. "Long-term stability of cortical population dynamics underlying consistent behavior." Nature neuroscience 23.2 (2020): 260-270.

      (11) Glaser, Joshua I., et al. "Machine learning for neural decoding." Eneuro 7.4 (2020).

      (12) Willsey, Matthew S., et al. "Real-time brain-machine interface in non-human primates achieves high-velocity prosthetic finger movements using a shallow feedforward neural network decoder." Nature Communications 13.1 (2022): 6899.

      Q2: “I still take issue with the premise that signals in the brain are "irrelevant" simply because they do not correlate with a fixed temporal lag with a particular behavioural feature handchosen by the experimenter. In the response to my previous review, the authors say "we employ terms like 'behaviorally-relevant' and 'behaviorally-irrelevant' only regarding behavioral variables of interest measured within a given task, such as arm kinematics during a motor control task.". This is just a restatement of their definition, not a response to my concern, and does not address my concern that the method requires a fixed temporal lag and continual decoding/encoding. My example of reward signals remains. There is a huge body of literature dating back to the 70s on the linear relationships between neural and activity and arm kinematics; in a sense, the authors have chosen the "variable of interest" that proves their point. This all ties back to the previous comment: this is mostly expected, not unexpected, when relating apparently-stochastic, discrete action potential events to smoothly varying limb kinematics.”

      Thank you for your comments. 

      Regarding the experimenter's specification of behavioral variables of interest, we followed common practice in existing studies [1, 2]. Regarding the use of fixed temporal lags, we followed the same practice as papers related to the dataset we use, which assume fixed temporal lags [3-5]. Furthermore, many studies in the motor cortex similarly use fixed temporal lags [68].

      Concerning the issue of rewards, in the paper you mentioned [9], the impact of rewards occurs after the reaching phase. It's important to note that in our experiments, we analyze only the reaching phase, without any post-movement phase. 

      If the impact of rewards can be stably reflected in the signals in the reaching phase of the subsequent trial, and if the reward-induced signals do not interfere with decoding—since these signals are harmless for decoding and beneficial for reconstruction—our model is likely to capture these signals. If the signals induced by rewards during the reaching phase are randomly unstable, our model will likely be unable to capture them.

      If the goal is to extract post-movement neural activity from both rewarded and unrewarded trials, and if the neural patterns differ between these conditions, one could replace the d-VAE's regression loss, used for continuous kinematics decoding, with a classification loss tailored to distinguish between rewarded and unrewarded conditions.

      To clarify the definition, we have revised it in the manuscript. Specifically, before a specific definition, we briefly introduce the relevant signals and irrelevant signals. Behaviorally irrelevant signals refer to those not directly associated with the behavioral variables of interest and may include noise or signals from variables of no interest. In contrast, behaviorally relevant signals refer to those directly related to the behavioral variables of interest. For instance, rewards in the post-movement phase are not directly related to behavioral variables (kinematics) in the reaching movement phase.

      It is important to note that our definition of behaviorally relevant signals not only includes decoding capabilities but also specific requirement at the signal level, based on two key requirements:

      (1) they should closely resemble raw signals to preserve the underlying neuronal properties without becoming so similar that they include irrelevant signals. (encoding requirement), and  (2) they should contain behavioral information as much as possible (decoding requirement). Signals that meet both requirements are considered effective behaviorally relevant signals. In our study, we assume raw signals are additively composed of behaviorally-relevant and irrelevant signals. We define irrelevant signals as those remaining after subtracting relevant signals from raw signals. Therefore, we believe our definition is clearly articulated. 

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      (1) Sani, Omid G., et al. "Modeling behaviorally relevant neural dynamics enabled by preferential subspace identification." Nature Neuroscience 24.1 (2021): 140-149.

      (2) Buetfering, Christina, et al. "Behaviorally relevant decision coding in primary somatosensory cortex neurons." Nature neuroscience 25.9 (2022): 1225-1236.

      (3) Wang, Fang, et al. "Quantized attention-gated kernel reinforcement learning for brain– machine interface decoding." IEEE transactions on neural networks and learning systems 28.4 (2015): 873-886.

      (4) Dyer, Eva L., et al. "A cryptography-based approach for movement decoding." Nature biomedical engineering 1.12 (2017): 967-976.

      (5) Ahmadi, Nur, Timothy G. Constandinou, and Christos-Savvas Bouganis. "Robust and accurate decoding of hand kinematics from entire spiking activity using deep learning." Journal of Neural Engineering 18.2 (2021): 026011.

      (6) Churchland, Mark M., et al. "Neural population dynamics during reaching." Nature 487.7405 (2012): 51-56.

      (7) Kaufman, Matthew T., et al. "Cortical activity in the null space: permitting preparation without movement." Nature neuroscience 17.3 (2014): 440-448.

      (8) Elsayed, Gamaleldin F., et al. "Reorganization between preparatory and movement population responses in motor cortex." Nature communications 7.1 (2016): 13239.

      (9) Ramkumar, Pavan, et al. "Premotor and motor cortices encode reward." PloS one 11.8 (2016): e0160851.

      Q3: “The authors seem to have missed the spirit of my critique: to say "linear readout is performed in motor cortex" is an over-interpretation of what their model can show.”

      Thank you for your comments. It's important to note that the conclusions we draw are speculative and not definitive. We use terms like "suggest" to reflect this uncertainty. To further emphasize the conjectural nature of our conclusions, we have deliberately moderated our tone.

      The question of whether behaviorally-relevant signals can be accessed by downstream brain regions hinges on the debate over whether the brain employs a strategy of filtering before decoding. If the brain employs such a strategy, the brain can probably access these signals. In our view, it is likely that the brain utilizes this strategy.

      Given the existence of behaviorally relevant signals, it is reasonable to assume that the brain has intrinsic mechanisms to differentiate between relevant and irrelevant signals. There is growing evidence suggesting that the brain utilizes various mechanisms, such as attention and specialized filtering, to suppress irrelevant signals and enhance relevant signals [1-3]. Therefore, it is plausible that the brain filters before decoding, thereby effectively accessing behaviorally relevant signals.

      Regarding the question of whether the brain employs linear readout, given the limitations of current observational methods and our incomplete understanding of brain mechanisms, it is challenging to ascertain whether the brain employs a linear readout. In many cortical areas, linear decoders have proven to be sufficiently accurate. Consequently, numerous studies [4, 5, 6], including the one you referenced [4], directly employ linear decoders to extract information and formulate conclusions based on the decoding results. Contrary to these approaches, our research has compared the performance of linear and nonlinear decoders on behaviorally relevant signals and found their decoding performance is comparable. Considering both the decoding accuracy and model complexity, our results suggest that the motor cortex may utilize linear readout to decode information from relevant signals. Given the current technological limitations, we consider it reasonable to analyze collected data to speculate on the potential workings of the brain, an approach that many studies have also embraced [7-10]. For instance, a study [7] deduces strategies the brain might employ to overcome noise by analyzing the structure of recorded data and decoding outcomes for new stimuli.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      (1) Sreenivasan, Sameet, and Ila Fiete. "Grid cells generate an analog error-correcting code for singularly precise neural computation." Nature neuroscience 14.10 (2011): 1330-1337.

      (2) Schneider, David M., Janani Sundararajan, and Richard Mooney. "A cortical filter that learns to suppress the acoustic consequences of movement." Nature 561.7723 (2018): 391-395.

      (3) Nakajima, Miho, L. Ian Schmitt, and Michael M. Halassa. "Prefrontal cortex regulates sensory filtering through a basal ganglia-to-thalamus pathway." Neuron 103.3 (2019): 445-458.

      (4) Jurewicz, Katarzyna, et al. "Irrational choices via a curvilinear representational geometry for value." bioRxiv (2022): 2022-03.

      (5) Hong, Ha, et al. "Explicit information for category-orthogonal object properties increases along the ventral stream." Nature neuroscience 19.4 (2016): 613-622.

      (6) Chang, Le, and Doris Y. Tsao. "The code for facial identity in the primate brain." Cell 169.6 (2017): 1013-1028.

      (7) Ganmor, Elad, Ronen Segev, and Elad Schneidman. "A thesaurus for a neural population code." Elife 4 (2015): e06134.

      (8) Churchland, Mark M., et al. "Neural population dynamics during reaching." Nature 487.7405 (2012): 51-56.

      (9) Gallego, Juan A., et al. "Cortical population activity within a preserved neural manifold underlies multiple motor behaviors." Nature communications 9.1 (2018): 4233.

      (10) Gallego, Juan A., et al. "Long-term stability of cortical population dynamics underlying consistent behavior." Nature neuroscience 23.2 (2020): 260-270.

      Q4: “Agreeing with my critique is not sufficient; please provide the data or simulations that provides the context for the reference in the fano factor. I believe my critique is still valid.”

      Thank you for your comments. As we previously replied, Churchland's research examines the variability of neural signals across different stages, including the preparation and execution phases, as well as before and after the target appears. Our study, however, focuses exclusively on the movement execution phase. Consequently, we are unable to produce comparative displays similar to those in his research. Intuitively, one might expect that the variability of behaviorally relevant signals would be lower; however, since no prior studies have accurately extracted such signals, the specific FF values of behaviorally relevant signals remain unknown. Therefore, presenting these values is meaningful, and can provide a reference for future research. While we cannot compare FF across different stages, we can numerically compare the values to the Poisson count process. An FF of 1 indicates a Poisson firing process, and our experimental data reveals that most neurons have an FF less than 1, indicating that the variance in firing counts is below the mean.  Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      To Reviewer #4

      Q1: “Overall, studying neural computations that are behaviorally relevant or not is an important problem, which several previous studies have explored (for example PSID in (Sani et al. 2021), TNDM in (Hurwitz et al. 2021), TAME-GP in (Balzani et al. 2023), pi-VAE in (Zhou and Wei 2020), and dPCA in (Kobak et al. 2016), etc). However, this manuscript does not properly put their work in the context of such prior works. For example, the abstract states "One solution is to accurately separate behaviorally-relevant and irrelevant signals, but this approach remains elusive", which is not the case given that these prior works have done that. The same is true for various claims in the main text, for example "Furthermore, we found that the dimensionality of primary subspace of raw signals (26, 64, and 45 for datasets A, B, and C) is significantly higher than that of behaviorally-relevant signals (7, 13, and 9), indicating that using raw signals to estimate the neural dimensionality of behaviors leads to an overestimation" (line 321). This finding was presented in (Sani et al. 2021) and (Hurwitz et al. 2021), which is not clarified here. This issue of putting the work in context has been brought up by other reviewers previously but seems to remain largely unaddressed. The introduction is inaccurate also in that it mixes up methods that were designed for separation of behaviorally relevant information with those that are unsupervised and do not aim to do so (e.g., LFADS). The introduction should be significantly revised to explicitly discuss prior models/works that specifically formulated this behavior separation and what these prior studies found, and how this study differs.”  

      Thank you for your comments. Our statement about “One solution is to accurately separate behaviorally-relevant and irrelevant signals, but this approach remains elusive” is accurate. To our best knowledge, there is no prior works to do this work--- separating accurate behaviorally relevant neural signals at both single-neuron and single-trial resolution. The works you mentioned have not explicitly proposed extracting behaviorally relevant signals, nor have they identified and addressed the key challenges of extracting relevant signals, namely determining the optimal degree of similarity between the generated relevant signals and raw signals. Those works focus on the latent neural dynamics, rather than signal level.

      To clearly set apart d-VAE from other models, we have framed the extraction of behaviorally relevant signals as the following mathematical optimization problem:

      where 𝒙𝒓 denotes generated behaviorally-relevant signals, 𝒙 denotes raw noisy signals, 𝐸(⋅,⋅) demotes reconstruction loss, and 𝑅(⋅) denotes regularization loss. It is important to note that while both d-VAE and TNDM employ reconstruction loss, relying solely on this term is insufficient for determining the optimal degree of similarity between the generated and raw noisy signals. The key to accurately extracting behaviorally relevant signals lies in leveraging prior knowledge about these signals to determine the optimal similarity degree, encapsulated by 𝑅(𝒙𝒓). All the works you mentioned did not have the key part 𝑅(𝒙𝒓).

      Regarding the dimensionality estimation, the dimensionality of neural manifolds quantifies the degrees of freedom required to describe population activity without significant information loss.

      There are two differences between our work and PSID and TNDM. 

      First, the dimensions they refer to are fundamentally different from ours. The dimensionality we describe pertains to a linear subspace, where a neural dimension or neural mode or principal component basis, , with N representing the number of neurons. However, the vector length of a neural mode of PSID and our approach differs; PSID requires concatenating multiple time steps T, essentially making , TNDM, on the other hand, involves nonlinear dimensionality reduction, which is different from linear dimensionality reduction.

      Second, we estimate neural dimensionality by explaining the variance of neural signals, whereas PSID and TNDM determine dimensionality through decoding performance saturation. It is important to note that the dimensionality at which decoding performance saturates may not accurately reflect the true dimensionality of neural manifolds, as some dimensions may contain redundant information that does not enhance decoding performance.

      We acknowledge that while LFADS can generate signals that contain some behavioral information, it was not specifically designed to do so. Following your suggestion, we have removed this reference from the Introduction.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q2: “Claims about linearity of "motor cortex" readout are not supported by results yet stated even in the abstract. Instead, what the results support is that for decoding behavior from the output of the dVAE model -- that is trained specifically to have a linear behavior readout from its embedding -- a nonlinear readout does not help. This result can be biased by the very construction of the dVAE's loss that encourages a linear readout/decoding from embeddings, and thus does not imply a finding about motor cortex.”

      Thank you for your comments. We respectfully disagree with the notion that the ability of relevant signals to be linearly decoded is due to constraints that allow embedding to be linearly decoded. Embedding involves reorganizing or transforming the structure of original signals, and they can be linearly decoded does not mean the corresponding signals can be decoded linearly.

      Let's clarify this with three intuitive examples:

      Example 1: Image denoising is a well-established field. Whether employing supervised or blind denoising methods [1, 2], both can effectively recover the original image. This denoising process closely resembles the extraction of behaviorally relevant signals from raw signals. Consider if noisy images are not amenable to linear decoding (classification); would removing the noise enable linear decoding? The answer is no. Typically, the noise in images captured under normal conditions is minimal, yet even the clear images remain challenging to decode linearly.

      Example 2: Consider the task of face recognition, where face images are set against various backgrounds, in this context, the pixels representing the face corresponds to relevant signals, while the background pixels are considered irrelevant. Suppose a network is capable of extracting the face pixels and the resulting embedding can be linearly decoded. Can the face pixels themselves be linearly decoded? The answer is no. If linear decoding of face pixels were feasible, the challenging task of face recognition could be easily resolved by merely extracting the face from the background and training a linear classifier.

      Example 3: In the MNIST dataset, the background is uniformly black, and its impact is minimal. However, linear SVM classifiers used directly on the original pixels significantly underperform compared to non-linear SVMs.

      In summary, embedding involves reorganizing the structure of the original signals through a feature transformation function. However, the reconstruction process can recover the structure of the original signals from the embedding. The fact that the structure of the embedding can be linearly decoded does not imply that the structure of the original signals can be linearly decoded in the same way. It is inappropriate to focus on the compression process without equally considering the reconstruction process.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      (1) Mao, Xiao-Jiao, Chunhua Shen, and Yu-Bin Yang. "Image restoration using convolutional auto-encoders with symmetric skip connections." arXiv preprint arXiv:1606.08921 (2016).

      (2) Lehtinen, Jaakko, et al. "Noise2Noise: Learning image restoration without clean data." International Conference on Machine Learning. International Machine Learning Society, 2018.

      Q3: “Related to the above, it is unclear what the manuscript means by readout from motor cortex. A clearer definition of "readout" (a mapping from what to what?) in general is needed. The mapping that the linearity/nonlinearity claims refer to is from the *inferred* behaviorally relevant neural signals, which themselves are inferred nonlinearly using the VAE. This should be explicitly clarified in all claims, i.e., that only the mapping from distilled signals to behavior is linear, not the whole mapping from neural data to behavior. Again, to say the readout from motor cortex is linear is not supported, including in the abstract.” 

      Thank you for your comments. We have revised the manuscript to make it more clearly. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q4: “Claims about individual neurons are also confounded. The d-VAE distilling processing is a population level embedding so the individual distilled neurons are not obtainable on their own without using the population data. This population level approach also raises the possibility that information can leak from one neuron to another during distillation, which is indeed what the authors hope would recover true information about individual neurons that wasn't there in the recording (the pixel denoising example). The authors acknowledge the possibility that information could leak to a neuron that didn't truly have that information and try to rule it out to some extent with some simulations and by comparing the distilled behaviorally relevant signals to the original neural signals. But ultimately, the distilled signals are different enough from the original signals to substantially improve decoding of low information neurons, and one cannot be sure if all of the information in distilled signals from any individual neuron truly belongs to that neuron. It is still quite likely that some of the improved behavior prediction of the distilled version of low-information neurons is due to leakage of behaviorally relevant information from other neurons, not the former's inherent behavioral information. This should be explicitly acknowledged in the manuscript.”

      Thank you for your comments. We value your insights regarding the mixing process. However, we are confident in the robustness of our conclusions. We respectfully disagree with the notion that the small R2 values containing significant information are primarily due to leakage, and we base our disagreement on four key reasons.

      (1) Neural reconstruction performance is a reliable and valid criterion.

      The purpose of latent variable models is to explain neuronal activity as much as possible. Given the fact that the ground truth of behaviorally-relevant signals, the latent variables, and the generative model is unknow, it becomes evident that the only reliable reference at the signal level is the raw signals. A crucial criterion for evaluating the reliability of latent variable models (including latent variables and generated relevant signals) is their capability to effectively explain the raw signals [1]. Consequently, we firmly maintain the belief that if the generated signals closely resemble the raw signals to the greatest extent possible, in accordance with an equivalence principle, we can claim that these obtained signals faithfully retain the inherent properties of single neurons. 

      Reviewer #4 appears to focus on the compression (mixing) process without giving equal consideration to the reconstruction (de-mixing) process. Numerous studies have demonstrated that deep autoencoders can reconstruct the original signal very effectively. For example, in the field of image denoising, autoencoders are capable of accurately restoring the original image [2, 3]. If one persistently focuses on the fact of mixing and ignores the reconstruction (demix) process, even if the only criterion that we can rely on at the signal level is high, one still won't acknowledge it. If this were the case, many problems would become unsolvable. For instance, a fundamental criterion for latent variable models is their ability to explain the original data. If the ground truth of the latent variables remains unknown and the reconstruction criterion is disregarded, how can we validate the effectiveness of the model, the validity of the latent variables, or ensure that findings related to latent variables are not merely by-products of the model? Therefore, we disagree with the aforementioned notion. We believe that as long as the reconstruction performance is satisfactory, the extracted signals have successfully retained the characteristics of individual neurons.

      In our paper, we have shown in various ways that our generated signals sufficiently resemble the raw signals, including visualizing neuronal activity (Fig. 2m, Fig. 3i, and Fig. S5), achieving the highest performance among competitors (Fig. 2d, h, l), and conducting control analyses. Therefore, we believe our results are reliable. 

      (1) Cunningham, J.P. and Yu, B.M., 2014. Dimensionality reduction for large-scale neural recordings. Nature neuroscience, 17(11), pp.1500-1509.

      (2) Mao, Xiao-Jiao, Chunhua Shen, and Yu-Bin Yang. "Image restoration using convolutional auto-encoders with symmetric skip connections." arXiv preprint arXiv:1606.08921 (2016).

      (3) Lehtinen, Jaakko, et al. "Noise2Noise: Learning image restoration without clean data." International Conference on Machine Learning. International Machine Learning Society, 2018.

      (2) There is no reason for d-VAE to add signals that do not exist in the original signals.

      (1) Adding signals that does not exist in the small R2 neurons would decrease the reconstruction performance. This is because if the added signals contain significant information, they will not resemble the irrelevant signals which contain no information, and thus, the generated signals will not resemble the raw signals. The model optimizes towards reducing the reconstruction loss, and this scenario deviates from the model's optimization direction. It is worth mentioning that when the model only has reconstruction loss without the interference of decoding loss, we believe that information leakage does not happen. Because the model can only be optimized in a direction that is similar to the raw signals; adding non-existent signals to the generated signals would increase the reconstruction loss, which is contrary to the objective of optimization. 

      (2) Information carried by these additional signals is redundant for larger R2 neurons, thus they do not introduce new information that can enhance the decoding performance of the neural population, which does not benefit the decoding loss.

      Based on these two points, we believe the model would not perform such counterproductive and harmful operations.

      (3) The criterion that irrelevant signals should contain minimal information can effectively rule out the leakage scenario.

      The criterion that irrelevant signals should contain minimal information is very important, but it seems that reviewer #4 has continuously overlooked their significance. If the model's reconstruction is insufficient, or if additional information is added (which we do not believe will happen), the residuals would decode a large amount of information, and this criterion would exclude selecting such signals. To clarify, if we assume that x, y, and z denote the raw, relevant, and irrelevant signals of smaller R2 neurons, with x=y+z, and the extracted relevant signals become y+m, the irrelevant signals become z-m in this case. Consequently, the irrelevant signals contain a significant amount of information.

      We presented the decoding R2 for irrelevant signals in real datasets under three distillation scenarios: a bias towards reconstruction (alpha=0, an extreme case where the model only has reconstruction loss without decoding loss), a balanced trade-off, and a bias towards decoding (alpha=0.9), as detailed in Table 1. If significant information from small R2 neurons leaks from large R2 neurons, the irrelevant signals should contain a large amount of information. However, our results indicate that the irrelevant signals contain only minimal information, and their performance closely resembles that of the model training solely with reconstruction loss, showing no significant differences (P > 0.05, Wilcoxon rank-sum test). When the model leans towards decoding, some useful information will be left in the residuals, and irrelevant signals will contain a substantial amount of information, as observed in Table 1, alpha=0.9. Therefore, we will not choose these signals for analysis.

      In conclusion, the criterion that irrelevant signals should contain minimal information is a very effective measure to exclude undesirable signals.

      Author response table 1.

      Decoding R2 of irrelevant signals

      (4) Synthetic experiments can effectively rule out the leakage scenario.

      In the absence of ground truth data, synthetic experiments serve as an effective method for validating models and are commonly employed [1-3]. 

      Our experimental results demonstrate that d-VAE can effectively extract neural signals that more closely resemble actual behaviorally relevant signals (Fig. S2g).  If there were information leakage, it would decrease the similarity to the ground truth signals, hence we have ruled out this possibility. Moreover, in synthetic experiments with small R2 neurons (Fig. S10), results also demonstrate that our model could make these neurons more closely resemble ground truth relevant signals and recover their information. 

      In summary, synthetic experiments strongly demonstrate that our model can recover obscured neuronal information, rather than adding signals that do not exist.

      (1) Pnevmatikakis, Eftychios A., et al. "Simultaneous denoising, deconvolution, and demixing of calcium imaging data." Neuron 89.2 (2016): 285-299.

      (2) Schneider, Steffen, Jin Hwa Lee, and Mackenzie Weygandt Mathis. "Learnable latent embeddings for joint behavioural and neural analysis." Nature 617.7960 (2023): 360-368.

      (3) Zhou, Ding, and Xue-Xin Wei. "Learning identifiable and interpretable latent models of high-dimensional neural activity using pi-VAE." Advances in Neural Information Processing Systems 33 (2020): 7234-7247.

      Based on these four points, we are confident in the reliability of our results. If Reviewer #4 considers these points insufficient, we would highly appreciate it if specific concerns regarding any of these aspects could be detailed.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q5: “Given the nuances involved in appropriate comparisons across methods and since two of the datasets are public, the authors should provide their complete code (not just the dVAE method code), including the code for data loading, data preprocessing, model fitting and model evaluation for all methods and public datasets. This will alleviate concerns and allow readers to confirm conclusions (e.g., figure 2) for themselves down the line.”

      Thanks for your suggestion.

      Our codes are now available on GitHub at https://github.com/eric0li/d-VAE. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q6: “Related to 1) above, the authors should explore the results if the affine network h(.) (from embedding to behavior) was replaced with a nonlinear ANN. Perhaps linear decoders would no longer be as close to nonlinear decoders. Regardless, the claim of linearity should be revised as described in 1) and 2) above, and all caveats should be discussed.”

      Thank you for your suggestion. We appreciate your feasible proposal that can be empirically tested. Following your suggestion, we have replaced the decoding of the latent variable z to behavior y with a nonlinear neural network, specifically a neural network with a single hidden layer. The modified model is termed d-VAE2. We applied the d-VAE2 to the real data, and selected the optimal alpha through the validation set. As shown in Table 1, results demonstrate that the performance of KF and ANN remains comparable. Therefore, the capacity to linearly decode behaviorally relevant signals does not stem from the linear decoding of embeddings.

      Author response table 2.

      Decoding R2 of behaviorally relevant signals obtained by d-VAE2

      Additionally, it is worth noting that this approach is uncommon and is considered somewhat inappropriate according to the Information Bottleneck theory [1]. According to the Information Bottleneck theory, information is progressively compressed in multilayer neural networks, discarding what is irrelevant to the output and retaining what is relevant. This means that as the number of layers increases, the mutual information between each layer's embedding and the model input gradually decreases, while the mutual information between each layer's embedding and the model output gradually increases. For the decoding part, if the embeddings that is not closest to the output (behaviors) is used, then these embeddings might contain behaviorally irrelevant signals. Using these embeddings to generate behaviorally relevant signals could lead to the inclusion of irrelevant signals in the behaviorally relevant signals.

      To demonstrate the above statement, we conducted experiments on the synthetic data. As shown in Table 2, we present the performance (neural R2 between the generated signals and the ground truth signals) of both models at several alpha values around the optimal alpha of dVAE (alpha=0.9) selected by the validation set. The experimental results show that at the same alpha value, the performance of d-VAE2 is consistently inferior to that of d-VAE, and d-VAE2 requires a higher alpha value to achieve performance comparable to d-VAE, and the best performance of d-VAE2 is inferior to that of d-VAE.

      Author response table 3.

      Neural R2 between generated signals and real behaviorally relevant signals

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      (1) Shwartz-Ziv, Ravid, and Naftali Tishby. "Opening the black box of deep neural networks via information." arXiv preprint arXiv:1703.00810 (2017).

      Q7: “The beginning of the section on the "smaller R2 neurons" should clearly define what R2 is being discussed. Based on the response to previous reviewers, this R2 "signifies the proportion of neuronal activity variance explained by the linear encoding model, calculated using raw signals". This should be mentioned and made clear in the main text whenever this R2 is referred to.”

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have made the modifications in the main text. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q8: “Various terms require clear definitions. The authors sometimes use vague terminology (e.g., "useless") without a clear definition. Similarly, discussions regarding dimensionality could benefit from more precise definitions. How is neural dimensionality defined? For example, how is "neural dimensionality of specific behaviors" (line 590) defined? Related to this, I agree with Reviewer 2 that a clear definition of irrelevant should be mentioned that clarifies that relevance is roughly taken as "correlated or predictive with a fixed time lag". The analyses do not explore relevance with arbitrary time lags between neural and behavior data.”

      Thanks for your suggestion. We have removed the “useless” statements and have revised the statement of “the neural dimensionality of specific behaviors” in our revised manuscripts.

      Regarding the use of fixed temporal lags, we followed the same practice as papers related to the dataset we use, which assume fixed temporal lags [1-3]. Furthermore, many studies in the motor cortex similarly use fixed temporal lags [4-6]. To clarify the definition, we have revised the definition in our manuscript. For details, please refer to the response to Q2 of reviewer #2 and our revised manuscript. We believe our definition is clearly articulated.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      (1) Wang, Fang, et al. "Quantized attention-gated kernel reinforcement learning for brain– machine interface decoding." IEEE transactions on neural networks and learning systems 28.4 (2015): 873-886.

      (2) Dyer, Eva L., et al. "A cryptography-based approach for movement decoding." Nature biomedical engineering 1.12 (2017): 967-976.

      (3) Ahmadi, Nur, Timothy G. Constandinou, and Christos-Savvas Bouganis. "Robust and accurate decoding of hand kinematics from entire spiking activity using deep learning." Journal of Neural Engineering 18.2 (2021): 026011.

      (4) Churchland, Mark M., et al. "Neural population dynamics during reaching." Nature 487.7405 (2012): 51-56.

      (5) Kaufman, Matthew T., et al. "Cortical activity in the null space: permitting preparation without movement." Nature neuroscience 17.3 (2014): 440-448.

      (6) Elsayed, Gamaleldin F., et al. "Reorganization between preparatory and movement population responses in motor cortex." Nature communications 7.1 (2016): 13239. 

      Q9: “CEBRA itself doesn't provide a neural reconstruction from its embeddings, but one could obtain one via a regression from extracted CEBRA embeddings to neural data. In addition to decoding results of CEBRA (figure S3), the neural reconstruction of CEBRA should be computed and CEBRA should be added to Figure 2 to see how the behaviorally relevant and irrelevant signals from CEBRA compare to other methods.”

      Thank you for your question. Modifying CEBRA is beyond the scope of our work. As CEBRA is not a generative model, it cannot obtain behaviorally relevant and irrelevant signals, and therefore it lacks the results presented in Fig. 2. To avoid the same confusion encountered by reviewers #3 and #4 among our readers, we have opted to exclude the comparison with CEBRA. It is crucial to note, as previously stated, that our assessment of decoding capabilities has been benchmarked against the performance of the ANN on raw signals, which almost represents the upper limit of performance. Consequently, omitting CEBRA does not affect our conclusions.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q10: “Line 923: "The optimal hyperparameter is selected based on the lowest averaged loss of five-fold training data." => why is this explained specifically under CEBRA? Isn't the same criteria used for hyperparameters of other methods? If so, clarify.”

      Thank you for your question. The hyperparameter selection for CEBRA follows the practice of the original CEBRA paper. The hyperparameter selection for generative models is detailed in the Section “The strategy for selecting effective behaviorally-relevant signals”.  Thank you for your valuable feedback.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this paper, the authors evaluate the utility of brain age derived metrics for predicting cognitive decline by performing a 'commonality' analysis in a downstream regression that enables the different contribution of different predictors to be assessed. The main conclusion is that brain age derived metrics do not explain much additional variation in cognition over and above what is already explained by age. The authors propose to use a regression model trained to predict cognition ('brain cognition') as an alternative suited to applications of cognitive decline. While this is less accurate overall than brain age, it explains more unique variance in the downstream regression.  

      Importantly, in this revision, we clarified that we did not intend to use Brain Cognition as an alternative approach. This is because, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. Here we made this point more explicit and further stated that the relationship between Brain Cognition and fluid cognition indicates the upper limit of Brain Age’s capability in capturing fluid cognition. By examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age. 

      REVISED VERSION: while the authors have partially addressed my concerns, I do not feel they have addressed them all. I do not feel they have addressed the weight instability and concerns about the stacked regression models satisfactorily.

      Please see our responses to Reviewer #1 Public Review #3 below

      I also must say that I agree with Reviewer 3 about the limitations of the brain age and brain cognition methods conceptually. In particular that the regression model used to predict fluid cognition will by construction explain more variance in cognition than a brain age model that is trained to predict age. This suffers from the same problem the authors raise with brain age and would indeed disappear if the authors had a separate measure of cognition against which to validate and were then to regress this out as they do for age correction. I am aware that these conceptual problems are more widespread than this paper alone (in fact throughout the brain age literature), so I do not believe the authors should be penalised for that. However, I do think they can make these concerns more explicit and further tone down the comments they make about the utility of brain cognition. I have indicated the main considerations about these points in the recommendations section below. 

      Thank you so much for raising this point. We now have the following statement in the introduction and discussion to address this concern (see below). 

      Briefly, we made it explicit that, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. That is, the relationship between Brain Cognition and fluid cognition indicates the upper limit of Brain Age’s capability in capturing fluid cognition. More importantly, by examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age. And this is the third goal of this present study. 

      From Introduction:

      “Third and finally, certain variation in fluid cognition is related to brain MRI, but to what extent does Brain Age not capture this variation? To estimate the variation in fluid cognition that is related to the brain MRI, we could build prediction models that directly predict fluid cognition (i.e., as opposed to chronological age) from brain MRI data. Previous studies found reasonable predictive performances of these cognition-prediction models, built from certain MRI modalities (Dubois et al., 2018; Pat, Wang, Anney, et al., 2022; Rasero et al., 2021; Sripada et al., 2020; Tetereva et al., 2022; for review, see Vieira et al., 2022). Analogous to Brain Age, we called the predicted values from these cognition-prediction models, Brain Cognition. The strength of an out-of-sample relationship between Brain Cognition and fluid cognition reflects variation in fluid cognition that is related to the brain MRI and, therefore, indicates the upper limit of Brain Age’s capability in capturing fluid cognition. This is, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. Consequently, if we included Brain Cognition, Brain Age and chronological age in the same model to explain fluid cognition, we would be able to examine the unique effects of Brain Cognition that explain fluid cognition beyond Brain Age and chronological age. These unique effects of Brain Cognition, in turn, would indicate the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that is missed by Brain Age.”

      From Discussion:

      “Third, by introducing Brain Cognition,  we showed the extent to which Brain Age indices were not able to capture the variation in fluid cognition that is related to brain MRI. More specifically, using Brain Cognition allowed us to gauge the variation in fluid cognition that is related to the brain MRI, and thereby, to estimate the upper limit of what Brain Age can do. Moreover, by examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age.

      From our results, Brain Cognition, especially from certain cognition-prediction models such as the stacked models, has relatively good predictive performance, consistent with previous studies (Dubois et al., 2018; Pat, Wang, Anney, et al., 2022; Rasero et al., 2021; Sripada et al., 2020; Tetereva et al., 2022; for review, see Vieira et al., 2022). We then examined Brain Cognition using commonality analyses (Nimon et al., 2008) in multiple regression models having a Brain Age index, chronological age and Brain Cognition as regressors to explain fluid cognition. Similar to Brain Age indices, Brain Cognition exhibited large common effects with chronological age. But more importantly, unlike Brain Age indices, Brain Cognition showed large unique effects, up to around 11%. As explained above, the unique effects of Brain Cognition indicated the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by a Brain Age index and chronological age. This missing amount was relatively high, considering that Brain Age and chronological age together explained around 32% of the total variation in fluid cognition. Accordingly, if a Brain Age index was used as a biomarker along with chronological age, we would have missed an opportunity to improve the performance of the model by around one-third of the variation explained.” 

      This is a reasonably good paper and the use of a commonality analysis is a nice contribution to understanding variance partitioning across different covariates. I have some comments that I believe the authors ought to address, which mostly relate to clarity and interpretation 

      Reviewer #1 Public Review #1

      First, from a conceptual point of view, the authors focus exclusively on cognition as a downstream outcome. I would suggest the authors nuance their discussion to provide broader considerations of the utility of their method and on the limits of interpretation of brain age models more generally. 

      Thank you for your comments on this issue. 

      We now discussed the broader consideration in detail:

      (1) the consistency between our findings on fluid cognition and other recent works on brain disorders, 

      (2) the difference between studies investigating the utility of Brain Age in explaining cognitive functioning, including ours and others (e.g., Butler et al., 2021; Cole, 2020, 2020; Jirsaraie, Kaufmann, et al., 2023) and those explaining neurological/psychological disorders (e.g., Bashyam et al., 2020; Rokicki et al., 2021)

      and 

      (3) suggested solutions we and others made to optimise the utility of Brain Age for both cognitive functioning and brain disorders.

      From Discussion:

      “This discrepancy between the predictive performance of age-prediction models and the utility of Brain Age indices as a biomarker is consistent with recent findings (for review, see Jirsaraie, Gorelik, et al., 2023), both in the context of cognitive functioning (Jirsaraie, Kaufmann, et al., 2023) and neurological/psychological disorders (Bashyam et al., 2020; Rokicki et al., 2021). For instance,  combining different MRI modalities into the prediction models, similar to our stacked models, ocen leads to the highest performance of age prediction models, but does not likely explain the highest variance across different phenotypes, including cognitive functioning and beyond (Jirsaraie, Gorelik, et al., 2023).”

      “There is a notable difference between studies investigating the utility of Brain Age in explaining cognitive functioning, including ours and others (e.g., Butler et al., 2021; Cole, 2020, 2020; Jirsaraie, Kaufmann, et al., 2023) and those explaining neurological/psychological disorders (e.g., Bashyam et al., 2020; Rokicki et al., 2021). We consider the former as a normative type of study and the lader as a case-control type of study (Insel et al., 2010; Marquand et al., 2016). Those case-control Brain Age studies focusing on neurological/psychological disorders often build age-prediction models from MRI data of largely healthy participants (e.g., controls in a case-control design or large samples in a population-based design), apply the built age-prediction models to participants without vs. with neurological/psychological disorders and compare Brain Age indices between the two groups. On the one hand, this means that case-control studies treat Brain Age as a method to detect anomalies in the neurological/psychological group (Hahn et al., 2021). On the other hand, this also means that case-control studies have to ignore underfided models when applied prediction models built from largely healthy participants to participants with neurological/psychological disorders (i.e., Brain Age may predict chronological age well for the controls, but not for those with a disorder). On the contrary, our study and other normative studies focusing on cognitive functioning often build age prediction models from MRI data of largely healthy participants and apply the built age prediction models to participants who are also largely healthy. Accordingly, the age prediction models for explaining cognitive functioning in normative studies, while not allowing us to detect group-level anomalies, do not suffer from being under-fided. This unfortunately might limit the generalisability of our study into just the normative type of study. Future work is still needed to test the utility of brain age in the case-control case.”

      “Next, researchers should not select age-prediction models based solely on age-prediction performance. Instead, researchers could select age-prediction models that explained phenotypes of interest the best. Here we selected age-prediction models based on a set of features (i.e., modalities) of brain MRI. This strategy was found effective not only for fluid cognition as we demonstrated here, but also for neurological and psychological disorders as shown elsewhere (Jirsaraie, Gorelik, et al., 2023; Rokicki et al., 2021). Rokicki and colleagues (2021), for instance, found that, while integrating across MRI modalities led to age prediction models with the highest age-prediction performance, using only T1 structural MRI gave age-prediction models that were better at classifying Alzheimer’s disease. Similarly, using only cerebral blood flow gave age-prediction models that were better at classifying mild/subjective cognitive impairment, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. 

      As opposed to selecting age-prediction models based on a set of features, researchers could also select age-prediction models based on modelling methods. For instance, Jirsaraie and colleagues (2023) compared gradient tree boosting (GTB) and deep-learning brain network (DBN) algorithms in building age-prediction models. They found GTB to have higher age prediction performance but DBN to have better utility in explaining cognitive functioning. In this case, an algorithm with better utility (e.g., DBN) should be used for explaining a phenotype of interest. Similarly, Bashyam and colleagues (2020) built different DBN-based age-prediction models, varying in age-prediction performance. The DBN models with a higher number of epochs corresponded to higher age-prediction performance. However, DBN-based age-prediction models with a moderate (as opposed to higher or lower) number of epochs were better at classifying Alzheimer’s disease, mild cognitive impairment and schizophrenia. In this case, a model from the same algorithm with better utility (e.g., those DBN with a moderate epoch number) should be used for explaining a phenotype of interest.

      Accordingly, this calls for a change in research practice, as recently pointed out by Jirasarie and colleagues (2023, p7), “Despite mounting evidence, there is a persisting assumption across several studies that the most accurate brain age models will have the most potential for detecting differences in a given phenotype of interest”. Future neuroimaging research should aim to build age-prediction models that are not necessarily good at predicting age, but at capturing phenotypes of interest.”

      Reviewer #1 Public Review #2

      Second, from a methods perspective, there is not a sufficient explanation of the methodological procedures in the current manuscript to fully understand how the stacked regression models were constructed. I would request that the authors provide more information to enable the reader to beUer understand the stacked regression models used to ensure that these models are not overfit. 

      Thank you for allowing us an opportunity to clarify our stacked model. We made additional clarification to make this clearer (see below). We wanted to confirm that we did not use test sets to build a stacked model in both lower and higher levels of the Elastic Net models. Test sets were there just for testing the performance of the models.  

      From Methods:

      “We used nested cross-validation (CV) to build these prediction models (see Figure 7). We first split the data into five outer folds, leaving each outer fold with around 100 participants. This number of participants in each fold is to ensure the stability of the test performance across folds. In each outer-fold CV loop, one of the outer folds was treated as an outer-fold test set, and the rest was treated as an outer-fold training set. Ultimately, looping through the nested CV resulted in a) prediction models from each of the 18 sets of features as well as b) prediction models that drew information across different combinations of the 18 separate sets, known as “stacked models.” We specified eight stacked models: “All” (i.e., including all 18 sets of features),  “All excluding Task FC”, “All excluding Task Contrast”, “Non-Task” (i.e., including only Rest FC and sMRI), “Resting and Task FC”, “Task Contrast and FC”, “Task Contrast” and “Task FC”. Accordingly, there were 26 prediction models in total for both Brain Age and Brain Cognition.

      To create these 26 prediction models, we applied three steps for each outer-fold loop. The first step aimed at tuning prediction models for each of 18 sets of features. This step only involved the outer-fold training set and did not involve the outer-fold test set. Here, we divided the outer-fold training set into five inner folds and applied inner-fold CV to tune hyperparameters with grid search. Specifically, in each inner-fold CV, one of the inner folds was treated as an inner-fold validation set, and the rest was treated as an inner-fold training set. Within each inner-fold CV loop, we used the inner-fold training set to estimate parameters of the prediction model with a particular set of hyperparameters and applied the estimated model to the inner-fold validation set. Acer looping through the inner-fold CV, we, then, chose the prediction models that led to the highest performance, reflected by coefficient of determination (R2), on average across the inner-fold validation sets. This led to 18 tuned models, one for each of the 18 sets of features, for each outer fold.

      The second step aimed at tuning stacked models. Same as the first step, the second step only involved the outer-fold training set and did not involve the outer-fold test set. Here, using the same outer-fold training set as the first step, we applied tuned models, created from the first step, one from each of the 18 sets of features, resulting in 18 predicted values for each participant. We, then, re-divided this outer-fold training set into new five inner folds. In each inner fold, we treated different combinations of the 18 predicted values from separate sets of features as features to predict the targets in separate “stacked” models. Same as the first step, in each inner-fold CV loop, we treated one out of five inner folds as an inner-fold validation set, and the rest as an inner-fold training set. Also as in the first step, we used the inner-fold training set to estimate parameters of the prediction model with a particular set of hyperparameters from our grid. We tuned the hyperparameters of stacked models using grid search by selecting the models with the highest R2 on average across the inner-fold validation sets. This led to eight tuned stacked models.

      The third step aimed at testing the predictive performance of the 18 tuned prediction models from each of the set of features, built from the first step, and eight tuned stacked models, built from the second step. Unlike the first two steps, here we applied the already tuned models to the outer-fold test set. We started by applying the 18 tuned prediction models from each of the sets of features to each observation in the outer-fold test set, resulting in 18 predicted values. We then applied the tuned stacked models to these predicted values from separate sets of features, resulting in eight predicted values. 

      To demonstrate the predictive performance, we assessed the similarity between the observed values and the predicted values of each model across outer-fold test sets, using Pearson’s r, coefficient of determination (R2) and mean absolute error (MAE). Note that for R2, we used the sum of squares definition (i.e., R2 \= 1 – (sum of squares residuals/total sum of squares)) per a previous recommendation (Poldrack et al., 2020). We considered the predicted values from the outer-fold test sets of models predicting age or fluid cognition, as Brain Age and Brain Cognition, respectively.”

      Author response image 1.

      Diagram of the nested cross-validation used for creating predictions for models of each set of features as well as predictions for stacked models. 

      Note some previous research, including ours (Tetereva et al., 2022), splits the observations in the outer-fold training set into layer 1 and layer 2 and applies the first and second steps to layers 1 and 2, respectively. Here we decided against this approach and used the same outer-fold training set for both first and second steps in order to avoid potential bias toward the stacked models. This is because, when the data are split into two layers, predictive models built for each separate set of features only use the data from layer 1, while the stacked models use the data from both layers 1 and 2. In practice with large enough data, these two approaches might not differ much, as we demonstrated previously (Tetereva et al., 2022).

      Reviewer #1 Public Review #3

      Please also provide an indication of the different regression strengths that were estimated across the different models and cross-validation splits. Also, how stable were the weights across splits? 

      The focus of this article is on the predictions. Still, it is informative for readers to understand how stable the feature importance (i.e., Elastic Net coefficients) is. To demonstrate the stability of feature importance, we now examined the rank stability of feature importance using Spearman’s ρ (see Figure 4). Specifically, we correlated the feature importance between two prediction models of the same features, used in two different outer-fold test sets. Given that there were five outer-fold test sets, we computed 10 Spearman’s ρ for each prediction model of the same features.  We found Spearman’s ρ to be varied dramatically in both age-prediction (range\=.31-.94) and fluid cognition-prediction (range\=.16-.84) models. This means that some prediction models were much more stable in their feature importance than others. This is probably due to various factors such as a) the collinearity of features in the model, b) the number of features (e.g., 71,631 features in functional connectivity, which were further reduced to 75 PCAs, as compared to 19 features in subcortical volume based on the ASEG atlas), c) the penalisation of coefficients either with ‘Ridge’ or ‘Lasso’ methods, which resulted in reduction as a group of features or selection of a feature among correlated features, respectively, and d) the predictive performance of the models. Understanding the stability of feature importance is beyond the scope of the current article. As mentioned by Reviewer 1, “The predictions can be stable when the coefficients are not,” and we chose to focus on the prediction in the current article.   

      Author response image 2.

      Stability of feature importance (i.e., Elastic Net Coefficients) of prediction models. Each dot represents rank stability (reflected by Spearman’s ρ) in the feature importance between two prediction models of the same features, used in two different outer-fold test sets. Given that there were five outer-fold test sets, there were 10 Spearman’s ρs for each prediction model.  The numbers to the right of the plots indicate the mean of Spearman’s ρ for each prediction model.  

      Reviewer #1 Public Review #4

      Please provide more details about the task designs, MRI processing procedures that were employed on this sample in addition to the regression methods and bias correction methods used. For example, there are several different parameterisations of the elastic net, please provide equations to describe the method used here so that readers can easily determine how the regularisation parameters should be interpreted.  

      Thank you for the opportunity for us to provide more methodical details.

      First, for the task design, we included the following statements:

      From Methods:

      “HCP-A collected fMRI data from three tasks: Face Name (Sperling et al., 2001), Conditioned Approach Response Inhibition Task (CARIT) (Somerville et al., 2018) and VISual MOTOR (VISMOTOR) (Ances et al., 2009). 

      First, the Face Name task (Sperling et al., 2001) taps into episodic memory. The task had three blocks. In the encoding block [Encoding], participants were asked to memorise the names of faces shown. These faces were then shown again in the recall block [Recall] when the participants were asked if they could remember the names of the previously shown faces. There was also the distractor block [Distractor] occurring between the encoding and recall blocks. Here participants were distracted by a Go/NoGo task. We computed six contrasts for this Face Name task: [Encode], [Recall], [Distractor], [Encode vs. Distractor], [Recall vs. Distractor] and [Encode vs. Recall].

      Second, the CARIT task (Somerville et al., 2018) was adapted from the classic Go/NoGo task and taps into inhibitory control. Participants were asked to press a budon to all [Go] but not to two [NoGo] shapes. We computed three contrasts for the CARIT task: [NoGo], [Go] and [NoGo vs. Go]. 

      Third, the VISMOTOR task (Ances et al., 2009) was designed to test simple activation of the motor and visual cortices. Participants saw a checkerboard with a red square either on the lec or right. They needed to press a corresponding key to indicate the location of the red square. We computed just one contrast for the VISMOTOR task: [Vismotor], which indicates the presence of the checkerboard vs. baseline.” 

      Second, for MRI processing procedures, we included the following statements.

      From Methods:

      “HCP-A provides details of parameters for brain MRI elsewhere (Bookheimer et al., 2019; Harms et al., 2018). Here we used MRI data that were pre-processed by the HCP-A with recommended methods, including the MSMALL alignment (Glasser et al., 2016; Robinson et al., 2018) and ICA-FIX (Glasser et al., 2016) for functional MRI. We used multiple brain MRI modalities, covering task functional MRI (task fMRI), resting-state functional MRI (rsfMRI) and structural MRI (sMRI), and organised them into 19 sets of features.”

      “Sets of Features 1-10: Task fMRI contrast (Task Contrast)

      Task contrasts reflect fMRI activation relevant to events in each task. Bookheimer and colleagues (2019) provided detailed information about the fMRI in HCP-A. Here we focused on the pre-processed task fMRI Connectivity Informatics Technology Initiative (CIFTI) files with a suffix, “_PA_Atlas_MSMAll_hp0_clean.dtseries.nii.” These CIFTI files encompassed both the cortical mesh surface and subcortical volume (Glasser et al., 2013). Collected using the posterior-to-anterior (PA) phase, these files were aligned using MSMALL (Glasser et al., 2016; Robinson et al., 2018), linear detrended (see hdps://groups.google.com/a/humanconnectome.org/g/hcp-users/c/ZLJc092h980/m/GiihzQAUAwAJ) and cleaned from potential artifacts using ICA-FIX (Glasser et al., 2016). 

      To extract Task Contrasts, we regressed the fMRI time series on the convolved task events using a double-gamma canonical hemodynamic response function via FMRIB Software Library (FSL)’s FMRI Expert Analysis Tool (FEAT) (Woolrich et al., 2001). We kept FSL’s default high pass cutoff at 200s (i.e., .005 Hz). We then parcellated the contrast ‘cope’ files, using the Glasser atlas (Gordon et al., 2016) for cortical surface regions and the Freesurfer’s automatic segmentation (aseg) (Fischl et al., 2002) for subcortical regions. This resulted in 379 regions, whose number was, in turn, the number of features for each Task Contrast set of features. “ 

      “Sets of Features 11-13: Task fMRI functional connectivity (Task FC)

      Task FC reflects functional connectivity (FC ) among the brain regions during each task, which is considered an important source of individual differences (Elliod et al., 2019; Fair et al., 2007; Gradon et al., 2018). We used the same CIFTI file “_PA_Atlas_MSMAll_hp0_clean.dtseries.nii.” as the task contrasts. Unlike Task Contrasts, here we treated the double-gamma, convolved task events as regressors of no interest and focused on the residuals of the regression from each task (Fair et al., 2007). We computed these regressors on FSL, and regressed them in nilearn (Abraham et al., 2014). Following previous work on task FC (Elliod et al., 2019), we applied a highpass at .008 Hz. For parcellation, we used the same atlases as Task Contrast (Fischl et al., 2002; Glasser et al., 2016). We computed Pearson’s correlations of each pair of 379 regions, resulting in a table of 71,631 non-overlapping FC indices for each task. We then applied r-to-z transformation and principal component analysis (PCA) of 75 components (Rasero et al., 2021; Sripada et al., 2019, 2020). Note to avoid data leakage, we conducted the PCA on each training set and applied its definition to the corresponding test set. Accordingly, there were three sets of 75 features for Task FC, one for each task. 

      Set of Features 14: Resting-state functional MRI functional connectivity (Rest FC) Similar to Task FC, Rest FC reflects functional connectivity (FC ) among the brain regions, except that Rest FC occurred during the resting (as opposed to task-performing) period. HCPA collected Rest FC from four 6.42-min (488 frames) runs across two days, leading to 26-min long data (Harms et al., 2018). On each day, the study scanned two runs of Rest FC, starting with anterior-to-posterior (AP) and then with posterior-to-anterior (PA) phase encoding polarity. We used the “rfMRI_REST_Atlas_MSMAll_hp0_clean.dscalar.nii” file that was preprocessed and concatenated across the four runs.  We applied the same computations (i.e., highpass filter, parcellation, Pearson’s correlations, r-to-z transformation and PCA) with the Task FC. 

      Sets of Features 15-18: Structural MRI (sMRI)

      sMRI reflects individual differences in brain anatomy. The HCP-A used an established preprocessing pipeline for sMRI (Glasser et al., 2013). We focused on four sets of features: cortical thickness, cortical surface area, subcortical volume and total brain volume. For cortical thickness and cortical surface area, we used Destrieux’s atlas (Destrieux et al., 2010; Fischl, 2012) from FreeSurfer’s “aparc.stats” file, resulting in 148 regions for each set of features. For subcortical volume, we used the aseg atlas (Fischl et al., 2002) from FreeSurfer’s “aseg.stats” file, resulting in 19 regions. For total brain volume, we had five FreeSurfer-based features: “FS_IntraCranial_Vol” or estimated intra-cranial volume, “FS_TotCort_GM_Vol” or total cortical grey mader volume, “FS_Tot_WM_Vol” or total cortical white mader volume, “FS_SubCort_GM_Vol” or total subcortical grey mader volume and “FS_BrainSegVol_eTIV_Ratio” or ratio of brain segmentation volume to estimated total intracranial volume.”

      Third, for regression methods and bias correction methods used, we included the following statements:

      From Methods:

      “For the machine learning algorithm, we used Elastic Net (Zou & Hastie, 2005). Elastic Net is a general form of penalised regressions (including Lasso and Ridge regression), allowing us to simultaneously draw information across different brain indices to predict one target variable. Penalised regressions are commonly used for building age-prediction models (Jirsaraie, Gorelik, et al., 2023). Previously we showed that the performance of Elastic Net in predicting cognitive abilities is on par, if not better than, many non-linear and morecomplicated algorithms (Pat, Wang, Bartonicek, et al., 2022; Tetereva et al., 2022). Moreover, Elastic Net coefficients are readily explainable, allowing us the ability to explain how our age-prediction and cognition-prediction models made the prediction from each brain feature (Molnar, 2019; Pat, Wang, Bartonicek, et al., 2022) (see below). 

      Elastic Net simultaneously minimises the weighted sum of the features’ coefficients. The degree of penalty to the sum of the feature’s coefficients is determined by a shrinkage hyperparameter ‘a’: the greater the a, the more the coefficients shrink, and the more regularised the model becomes. Elastic Net also includes another hyperparameter, ‘ℓ! ratio’, which determines the degree to which the sum of either the squared (known as ‘Ridge’; ℓ! ratio=0) or absolute (known as ‘Lasso’; ℓ! ratio=1) coefficients is penalised (Zou & Hastie, 2005). The objective function of Elastic Net as implemented by sklearn (Pedregosa et al., 2011) is defined as:

      where X is the features, y is the target, and b is the coefficient. In our grid search, we tuned two Elastic Net hyperparameters: a using 70 numbers in log space, ranging from .1 and 100, and ℓ!-ratio using 25 numbers in linear space, ranging from 0 and 1.

      To understand how Elastic Net made a prediction based on different brain features, we examined the coefficients of the tuned model. Elastic Net coefficients can be considered as feature importance, such that more positive Elastic Net coefficients lead to more positive predicted values and, similarly, more negative Elastic Net coefficients lead to more negative predicted values (Molnar, 2019; Pat, Wang, Bartonicek, et al., 2022). While the magnitude of Elastic Net coefficients is regularised (thus making it difficult for us to interpret the magnitude itself directly), we could still indicate that a brain feature with a higher magnitude weights relatively stronger in making a prediction. Another benefit of Elastic Net as a penalised regression is that the coefficients are less susceptible to collinearity among features as they have already been regularised (Dormann et al., 2013; Pat, Wang, Bartonicek, et al., 2022).

      Given that we used five-fold nested cross validation, different outer folds may have different degrees of ‘a’ and ‘ℓ! ratio’, making the final coefficients from different folds to be different. For instance, for certain sets of features, penalisation may not play a big part (i.e., higher or lower ‘a’ leads to similar predictive performance), resulting in different ‘a’ for different folds. To remedy this in the visualisation of Elastic Net feature importance, we refitted the Elastic Net model to the full dataset without spli{ng them into five folds and visualised the coefficients on brain images using Brainspace (Vos De Wael et al., 2020) and Nilern (Abraham et al., 2014) packages. Note, unlike other sets of features, Task FC and Rest FC were modelled acer data reduction via PCA. Thus, for Task FC and Rest FC, we, first, multiplied the absolute PCA scores (extracted from the ‘components_’ attribute of ‘sklearn.decomposition.PCA’) with Elastic Net coefficients and, then, summed the multiplied values across the 75 components, leaving 71,631 ROI-pair indices.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Responses to Reviewer’s Comments:  

      To Reviewer #2:

      (1) The use of two m<sup>5</sup>C reader proteins is likely a reason for the high number of edits introduced by the DRAM-Seq method. Both ALYREF and YBX1 are ubiquitous proteins with multiple roles in RNA metabolism including splicing and mRNA export. It is reasonable to assume that both ALYREF and YBX1 bind to many mRNAs that do not contain m<sup>5</sup>C. 

      To substantiate the author's claim that ALYREF or YBX1 binds m<sup>5</sup>C-modified RNAs to an extent that would allow distinguishing its binding to non-modified RNAs from binding to m<sup>5</sup>Cmodified RNAs, it would be recommended to provide data on the affinity of these, supposedly proven, m<sup>5</sup>C readers to non-modified versus m<sup>5</sup>C-modified RNAs. To do so, this reviewer suggests performing experiments as described in Slama et al., 2020 (doi: 10.1016/j.ymeth.2018.10.020). However, using dot blots like in so many published studies to show modification of a specific antibody or protein binding, is insufficient as an argument because no antibody, nor protein, encounters nanograms to micrograms of a specific RNA identity in a cell. This issue remains a major caveat in all studies using so-called RNA modification reader proteins as bait for detecting RNA modifications in epitranscriptomics research. It becomes a pertinent problem if used as a platform for base editing similar to the work presented in this manuscript.

      The authors have tried to address the point made by this reviewer. However, rather than performing an experiment with recombinant ALYREF-fusions and m<sup>5</sup>C-modified to unmodified RNA oligos for testing the enrichment factor of ALYREF in vitro, the authors resorted to citing two manuscripts. One manuscript is cited by everybody when it comes to ALYREF as m<sup>5</sup>C reader, however none of the experiments have been repeated by another laboratory. The other manuscript is reporting on YBX1 binding to m<sup>5</sup>C-containing RNA and mentions PARCLiP experiments with ALYREF, the details of which are nowhere to be found in doi: 10.1038/s41556-019-0361-y.

      Furthermore, the authors have added RNA pull-down assays that should substitute for the requested experiments. Interestingly, Figure S1E shows that ALYREF binds equally well to unmodified and m<sup>5</sup>C-modified RNA oligos, which contradicts doi:10.1038/cr.2017.55, and supports the conclusion that wild-type ALYREF is not specific m<sup>5</sup>C binder. The necessity of including always an overexpression of ALYREF-mut in parallel DRAM experiments, makes the developed method better controlled but not easy to handle (expression differences of the plasmid-driven proteins etc.) 

      Thank you for pointing this out. First, we would like to correct our previous response: the binding ability of ALYREF to m<sup>5</sup>C-modified RNA was initially reported in doi: 10.1038/cr.2017.55, (and not in doi: 10.1038/s41556-019-0361-y), where it was observed through PAR-CLIP analysis that the K171 mutation weakens its binding affinity to m<sup>5</sup>C -modified RNA.

      Our previous experimental approach was not optimal: the protein concentration in the INPUT group was too high, leading to overexposure in the experimental group. Additionally, we did not conduct a quantitative analysis of the results at that time. In response to your suggestion, we performed RNA pull-down experiments with YBX1 and ALYREF, rather than with the pan-DRAM protein, to better validate and reproduce the previously reported findings. Our quantitative analysis revealed that both ALYREF and YBX1 exhibit a stronger affinity for m<sup>5</sup>C -modified RNAs. Furthermore, mutating the key amino acids involved in m<sup>5</sup>C recognition significantly reduced the binding affinity of both readers. These results align with previous studies (doi: 10.1038/cr.2017.55 and doi: 10.1038/s41556-019-0361-y), confirming that ALYREF and YBX1 are specific readers of m<sup>5</sup>C -modified RNAs. However, our detection system has certain limitations. Despite mutating the critical amino acids, both readers retained a weak binding affinity for m<sup>5</sup>C, suggesting that while the mutation helps reduce false positives, it is still challenging to precisely map the distribution of m<sup>5</sup>C modifications. To address this, we plan to further investigate the protein structure and function to obtain a more accurate m<sup>5</sup>C sequencing of the transcriptome in future studies. Accordingly, we have updated our results and conclusions in lines 294-299 and discuss these limitations in lines 109114.

      In addition, while the m<sup>5</sup>C assay can be performed using only the DRAM system alone, comparing it with the DRAM<sup>mut</sup> control enhances the accuracy of m<sup>5</sup>C region detection. To minimize the variations in transfection efficiency across experimental groups, it is recommended to use the same batch of transfections. This approach not only ensures more consistent results but also improve the standardization of the DRAM assay, as discussed in the section added on line 308-312.

      (2) Using sodium arsenite treatment of cells as a means to change the m<sup>5</sup>C status of transcripts through the downregulation of the two major m<sup>5</sup>C writer proteins NSUN2 and NSUN6 is problematic and the conclusions from these experiments are not warranted. Sodium arsenite is a chemical that poisons every protein containing thiol groups. Not only do NSUN proteins contain cysteines but also the base editor fusion proteins. Arsenite will inactivate these proteins, hence the editing frequency will drop, as observed in the experiments shown in Figure 5, which the authors explain with fewer m<sup>5</sup>C sites to be detected by the fusion proteins.

      The authors have not addressed the point made by this reviewer. Instead the authors state that they have not addressed that possibility. They claim that they have revised the results section, but this reviewer can only see the point raised in the conclusions. An experiment would have been to purify base editors via the HA tag and then perform some kind of binding/editing assay in vitro before and after arsenite treatment of cells.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comment. We fully agree with the concern raised. In the original manuscript, our intention was to use sodium arsenite treatment to downregulate NSUN mediated m<sup>5</sup>C levels and subsequently decrease DRAM editing efficiency, with the aim of monitoring m<sup>5</sup>C dynamics through the DRAM system. However, as the reviewer pointed out, sodium arsenite may inactivate both NSUN proteins and the base editor fusion proteins, and any such inactivation would likely result in a reduced DRAM editing.

      This confounds the interpretation of our experimental data.

      As demonstrated in Author response image 1A, western blot analysis confirmed that sodium arsenite indeed decreased the expression of fusion proteins. In addition, we attempted in vitro fusion protein purificationusing multiple fusion tags (HIS, GST, HA, MBP) for DRAM fusion protein expression, but unfortunately, we were unable to obtain purified proteins. However, using the Promega TNT T7 Rapid Coupled In Vitro Transcription/Translation Kit, we successfully purified the DRAM protein (Author response image 1B). Despite this success, subsequent in vitro deamination experiments did not yield the expected mutation results (Author response image 1C), indicating that further optimization is required. This issue is further discussed in line 314-315.

      Taken together, the above evidence supports that the experiment of sodium arsenite treatment was confusing and we determined to remove the corresponding results from the main text of the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      (3) The authors should move high-confidence editing site data contained in Supplementary Tables 2 and 3 into one of the main Figures to substantiate what is discussed in Figure 4A. However, the data needs to be visualized in another way then excel format. Furthermore, Supplementary Table 2 does not contain a description of the columns, while Supplementary Table 3 contains a single row with letters and numbers.

      The authors have not addressed the point made by this reviewer. Figure 3F shows the screening process for DRAM-seq assays and principles for screening highconfidence genes rather than the data contained in Supplementary Tables 2 and 3 of the former version of this manuscript.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. We have visualized the data from Supplementary Tables 2 and 3 in Figure 4A as a circlize diagram (described in lines 213-216), illustrating the distribution of mutation sites detected by the DRAM system across each chromosome. Additionally, to improve the presentation and clarity of the data, we have revised Supplementary Tables 2 and 3 by adding column descriptions, merging the DRAM-ABE and DRAM-CBE sites, and including overlapping m<sup>5</sup>C genes from previous datasets.

      Responses to Reviewer’s Comments:  

      To Reviewer #3:

      The authors have again tried to address the former concern by this reviewer who questioned the specificity of both m<sup>5</sup>C reader proteins towards modified RNA rather than unmodified RNA. The authors chose to do RNA pull down experiments which serve as a proxy for proving the specificity of ALYREF and YBX1 for m<sup>5</sup>C modified RNAs. Even though this reviewer asked for determining the enrichment factor of the reader-base editor fusion proteins (as wildtype or mutant for the identified m<sup>5</sup>C specificity motif) when presented with m<sup>5</sup>C-modified RNAs, the authors chose to use both reader proteins alone (without the fusion to an editor) as wildtype and as respective m<sup>5</sup>C-binding mutant in RNA in vitro pull-down experiments along with unmodified and m<sup>5</sup>C-modified RNA oligomers as binding substrates. The quantification of these pull-down experiments (n=2) have now been added, and are revealing that (according to SFigure 1 E and G) YBX1 enriches an RNA containing a single m<sup>5</sup>C by a factor of 1.3 over its unmodified counterpart, while ALYREF enriches by a factor of 4x. This is an acceptable approach for educated readers to question the specificity of the reader proteins, even though the quantification should be performed differently (see below).

      Given that there is no specific sequence motif embedding those cytosines identified in the vicinity of the DRAM-edits (Figure 3J and K), even though it has been accepted by now that most of the m<sup>5</sup>C sites in mRNA are mediated by NSUN2 and NSUN6 proteins, which target tRNA like substrate structures with a particular sequence enrichment, one can conclude that DRAM-Seq is uncovering a huge number of false positives. This must be so not only because of the RNA bisulfite seq data that have been extensively studied by others, but also by the following calculations: Given that the m<sup>5</sup>C/C ratio in human mRNA is 0.02-0.09% (measured by mass spec) and assuming that 1/4 of the nucleotides in an average mRNA are cytosines, an mRNA of 1.000 nucleotides would contain 250 Cs. 0.02- 0.09% m<sup>5</sup>C/C would then translate into 0.05-0.225 methylated cytosines per 250 Cs in a 1000 nt mRNA. YBX1 would bind every C in such an mRNA since there is no m<sup>5</sup>C to be expected, which it could bind with 1.3 higher affinity. Even if the mRNAs would be 10.000 nt long, YBX1 would bind to half a methylated cytosine or 2.25 methylated cytosines with 1.3x higher affinity than to all the remaining cytosines (2499.5 to 2497.75 of 2.500 cytosines in 10.000 nt, respectively). These numbers indicate a 4999x to 1110x excess of cytosine over m<sup>5</sup>C in any substrate RNA, which the "reader" can bind as shown in the RNA pull-downs on unmodified RNAs. This reviewer spares the reader of this review the calculations for ALYREF specificity, which is slightly higher than YBX1. Hence, it is up to the capable reader of these calculations to follow the claim that this minor affinity difference allows the unambiguous detection of the few m<sup>5</sup>C sites in mRNA be it in the endogenous scenario of a cell or as fusion-protein with a base editor attached? 

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s rigorous analysis. We would like to clarify that in our RNA pulldown assays, we indeed utilized the full DRAM system (reader protein fused to the base editor) to reflect the specificity of m<sup>5</sup>C recognition. As previously suggested by the reviewer, to independently validate the m<sup>5</sup>C-binding specificity of ALYREF and YBX1, we performed separate pulldown experiments with wild-type and mutant reader proteins (without the base editor fusion) using both unmodified and m<sup>5</sup>C-modified RNA substrates. This approach aligns with established methodologies in the field (doi:10.1038/cr.2017.55 and doi: 10.1038/s41556-019-0361-y). We have revised the Methods section (line 230) to explicitly describe this experimental design.

      Although the m<sup>5</sup>C/C ratios in LC/MS-assayed mRNA are relatively low (ranging from 0.02% to 0.09%), as noted by the reviewer, both our data and previous studies have demonstrated that ALYREF and YBX1 preferentially bind to m<sup>5</sup>C-modified RNAs over unmodified RNAs, exhibiting 4-fold and 1.3-fold enrichment, respectively (Supplementary Figure 1E–1G). Importantly, this specificity is further enhanced in the DRAM system through two key mechanisms: first, the fusion of reader proteins to the deaminase restricts editing to regions near m<sup>5</sup>C sites, thereby minimizing off-target effects; second, background editing observed in reader-mutant or deaminase controls (e.g., DRAM<sup>mut</sup>-CBE in Figure 2D) is systematically corrected for during data analysis.

      We agree that the theoretical challenge posed by the vast excess of unmodified cytosines. However, our approach includes stringent controls to alleviate this issue. Specifically, sites identified in NSUN2/NSUN6 knockout cells or reader-mutant controls are excluded (Figure 3F), which significantly reduces the number of false-positive detections. Additionally, we have observed deamination changes near high-confidence m<sup>5</sup>C methylation sites detected by RNA bisulfite sequencing, both in first-generation and high-throughput sequencing data. This observation further substantiates the validity of DRAM-Seq in accurately identifying m<sup>5</sup>C sites.

      We fully acknowledge that residual false positives may persist due to the inherent limitations of reader protein specificity, as discussed in line 299-301 of our manuscript. To address this, we plan to optimize reader domains with enhanced m<sup>5</sup>C binding (e.g., through structure-guided engineering), which is also previously implemented in the discussion of the manuscript.

      The reviewer supports the attempt to visualize the data. However, the usefulness of this Figure addition as a readable presentation of the data included in the supplement is up to debate.

      Thank you for your kind suggestion. We understand the reviewer's concern regarding data visualization. However, due to the large volume of DRAM-seq data, it is challenging to present each mutation site and its characteristics clearly in a single figure. Therefore, we chose to categorize the data by chromosome, which not only allows for a more organized presentation of the DRAM-seq data but also facilitates comparison with other database entries. Additionally, we have updated Supplementary Tables 2 and 3 to provide comprehensive information on the mutation sites. We hope that both the reviewer and editors will understand this approach. We will, of course, continue to carefully consider the reviewer's suggestions and explore better ways to present these results in the future.

      (3) A set of private Recommendations for the Authors that outline how you think the science and its presentation could be strengthened

      NEW COMMENTS to TEXT:

      Abstract:

      "5-Methylcytosine (m<sup>5</sup>C) is one of the major post-transcriptional modifications in mRNA and is highly involved in the pathogenesis of various diseases."

      In light of the increasing use of AI-based writing, and the proof that neither DeepSeek nor ChatGPT write truthfully statements if they collect metadata from scientific abstracts, this sentence is utterly misleading.

      m<sup>5</sup>C is not one of the major post-transcriptional modifications in mRNA as it is only present with a m<sup>5</sup>C/C ratio of 0.02- 0.09% as measured by mass-spec. Also, if m<sup>5</sup>C is involved in the pathogenesis of various diseases, it is not through mRNA but tRNA. No single published work has shown that a single m<sup>5</sup>C on an mRNA has anything to do with disease. Every conclusion that is perpetuated by copying the false statements given in the many reviews on the subject is based on knock-out phenotypes of the involved writer proteins. This reviewer wishes that the authors would abstain from the common practice that is currently flooding any scientific field through relentless repetitions in the increasing volume of literature which perpetuate alternative facts.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments. While we acknowledge that m<sup>5</sup>C is not the most abundant post-transcriptional modification in mRNA, we believe that research into m<sup>5</sup>C modification holds considerable value. Numerous studies have highlighted its role in regulating gene expression and its potential contribution to disease progression. For example, recent publications have demonstrated that m<sup>5</sup>C modifications in mRNA can influence cancer progression, lipid metabolism, and other pathological processes (e.g., PMID: 37845385; 39013911; 39924557; 38042059; 37870216).

      We fully agree with the reviewer on the importance of maintaining scientific rigor in academic writing. While m<sup>5</sup>C is not the most abundant RNA modification, we cannot simply draw a conclusion that the level of modification should be the sole criterion for assessing its biological significance. However, to avoid potential confusion, we have removed the word “major”.

      COMMENTS ON FIGURE PRESENTATION:

      Figure 2D:

      The main text states: "DRAM-CBE induced C to U editing in the vicinity of the m<sup>5</sup>C site in AP5Z1 mRNA, with 13.6% C-to-U editing, while this effect was significantly reduced with APOBEC1 or DRAM<sup>mut</sup>-CBE (Fig.2D)." The Figure does not fit this statement. The seq trace shows a U signal of about 1/3 of that of C (about 30%), while the quantification shows 20+ percent

      Thank you for your kind suggestion. Upon visual evaluation, the sequencing trace in the figure appears to suggest a mutation rate closer to 30% rather than 22%. However, relying solely on the visual interpretation of sequencing peaks is not a rigorous approach. The trace on the left represents the visualization of Sanger sequencing results using SnapGene, while the quantification on the right is derived from EditR 1.0.10 software analysis of three independent biological replicates. The C-to-U mutation rates calculated were 22.91667%, 23.23232%, and 21.05263%, respectively. To further validate this, we have included the original EditR analysis of the Sanger sequencing results for the DRAM-CBE group used in the left panel of Figure 2D (see Author response image 2). This analysis confirms an m<sup>5</sup>C fraction (%) of 22/(22+74) = 22.91667, and the sequencing trace aligns well with the mutation rate we reported in Figure 2D. In conclusion, the data and conclusions presented in Figure 2D are consistent and supported by the quantitative analysis.

      Author response image 2.

      Figure 4B: shows now different numbers in Venn-diagrams than in the same depiction, formerly Figure 4A

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for pointing out this issue, and we apologize for not clearly indicating the changes in the previous version of the manuscript. In response to the initial round of reviewer comments, we implemented a more stringent data filtering process (as described in Figure 3F and method section) : "For high-confidence filtering, we further adjusted the parameters of Find_edit_site.pl to include an edit ratio of 10%–60%, a requirement that the edit ratio in control samples be at least 2-fold higher than in NSUN2 or NSUN6knockout samples, and at least 4 editing events at a given site." As a result, we made minor adjustments to the Venn diagram data in Figure 4A, reducing the total number of DRAM-edited mRNAs from 11,977 to 10,835. These changes were consistently applied throughout the manuscript, and the modifications have been highlighted for clarity. Importantly, these adjustments do not affect any of the conclusions presented in the manuscript.

      Figure 4B and D: while the overlap of the DRAM-Seq data with RNA bisulfite data might be 80% or 92%, it is obvious that the remaining data DRAM seq suggests a detection of additional sites of around 97% or 81.83%. It would be advised to mention this large number of additional sites as potential false positives, unless these data were normalized to the sites that can be allocated to NSUN2 and NSUN6 activity (NSUN mutant data sets could be substracted).

      Thank you for pointing this out. The Venn diagrams presented in Figure 4B and D already reflect the exclusion of potential false-positive sites identified in methyltransferasedeficient datasets, as described in our experimental filtering process, and they represent the remaining sites after this stringent filtering. However, we acknowledge that YBX1 and ALYREF, while preferentially binding to m<sup>5</sup>C-modified RNA, also exhibit some affinity for unmodified RNA. Although we employed rigorous controls, including DRAM<sup>mut</sup> and deaminase groups, to minimize false positives, the possibility of residual false positives cannot be entirely ruled out. Addressing this limitation would require even more stringent filtering methods, as discussed in lines 299–301 of the manuscript. We are committed to further optimizing the DRAM system to enhance the accuracy of transcriptome-wide m<sup>5</sup>C analysis in future studies.

      SFigure 1: It is clear that the wild type version of both reader proteins are robustly binding to RNA that does not contain m<sup>5</sup>C. As for the calculations of x-fold affinity loss of RNA binding using both ALYREF -mut or YBX1 -mut, this reviewer asks the authors to determine how much less the mutated versions of the proteins bind to a m<sup>5</sup>C-modified RNAs. Hence, a comparison of YBX1 versus YBX1 -mut (ALYREF versus ALYREF -mut) on the same substrate RNA with the same m<sup>5</sup>C-modified position would allow determining the contribution of the so-called modification binding pocket in the respective proteins to their RNA binding. The way the authors chose to show the data presently is misleading because what is compared is the binding of either the wild type or the mutant protein to different RNAs.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable feedback and apologize for any confusion caused by the presentation of our data. We would like to clarify the rationale behind our approach. The decision to present the wild-type and mutant reader proteins in separate panels, rather than together, was made in response to comments from Reviewer 2. Below, we provide a detailed explanation of our experimental design and its justification.

      First, we confirmed that YBX1 and ALYREF exhibit stronger binding affinity to m<sup>5</sup>Cmodified RNA compared to unmodified RNA, establishing their role as m<sup>5</sup>C reader proteins. Next, to validate the functional significance of the DRAM<sup>mut</sup> group, we demonstrated that mutating key amino acids in the m<sup>5</sup>C-binding pocket significantly reduces the binding affinity of YBX1<sup>mut</sup> and ALYREF<sup>mut</sup> to m<sup>5</sup>C-modified RNA. This confirms that the DRAM<sup>mut</sup> group effectively minimizes false-positive results by disrupting specific m<sup>5</sup>C interactions.

      Crucially, in our pull-down experiments, both the wild-type and mutant proteins (YBX1/YBX1<sup>mut</sup> and ALYREF/ALYREF<sup>mut</sup>) were incubated with the same RNA sequences. To avoid any ambiguity, we have included the specific RNA sequence information in the Methods section (lines 463–468). This ensures a assessment of the reduced binding affinity of the mutant versions relative to the wild-type proteins, even though they are presented in separate panels.

      We hope this explanation clarifies our approach and demonstrates the robustness of our findings. We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s understanding and hope this addresses their concerns.

      SFigure 2C: first two panels are duplicates of the same image.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We sincerely apologize for incorrectly duplicating the images. We have now updated Supplementary Figure 2C with the correct panels and have provided the original flow cytometry data for the first two images. It is important to note that, as demonstrated by the original data analysis, the EGFP-positive quantification values (59.78% and 59.74%) remain accurate. Therefore, this correction does not affect the conclusions of our study. Thank you again for bringing this to our attention.

      Author response image 3.

      SFigure 4B: how would the PCR product for NSUN6 be indicative of a mutation? The used primers seem to amplify the wildtype sequence.

      Thank you for your kind suggestion. In our NSUN6<sup>-/-</sup> cell line, the NSUN6 gene is only missing a single base pair (1bp) compared to the wildtype, which results in frame shift mutation and reduction in NSUN6 protein expression. We fully agree with the reviewer that the current PCR gel electrophoresis does not provide a clear distinction of this 1bp mutation. To better illustrate our experimental design, we have included a schematic representation of the knockout sequence in SFigure 4B. Additionally, we have provided the original sequencing data, and the corresponding details have been added to lines 151-153 of the manuscript for further clarification.

      Author response image 4.

      SFigure 4C: the Figure legend is insufficient to understand the subfigure.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. To improve clarity, we have revised the figure legend for SFigure 4C, as well as the corresponding text in lines 178-179. We have additionally updated the title of SFigure 4 for better clarity. The updated SFigure 4C now demonstrates that the DRAM-edited mRNAs exhibit a high degree of overlap across the three biological replicates.

      SFigure 4D: the Figure legend is insufficient to understand the subfigure.

      Thank you for your kind suggestion. We have revised the figure legend to provide a clearer explanation of the subfigure. Specifically, this figure illustrates the motif analysis derived from sequences spanning 10 nucleotides upstream and downstream of DRAMedited sites mediated by loci associated with NSUN2 or NSUN6. To enhance clarity, we have also rephrased the relevant results section (lines 169-175) and the corresponding discussion (lines 304-307).

      SFigure 7: There is something off with all 6 panels. This reviewer can find data points in each panel that do not show up on the other two panels even though this is a pairwise comparison of three data sets (file was sent to the Editor) Available at https://elife-rp.msubmit.net/elife-rp_files/2025/01/22/00130809/02/130809_2_attach_27_15153.pdf

      Response: We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We would like to clarify the methodology behind this analysis. In this study, we conducted pairwise comparisons of the number of DRAM-edited sites per gene across three biological replicates of DRAM-ABE or DRAM-CBE, visualized as scatterplots. Each data point in the plots corresponds to a gene, and while the same gene is represented in all three panels, its position may vary vertically or horizontally across the panels. This variation arises because the number of mutation sites typically differs between replicates, making it unlikely for a data point to occupy the exact same position in all panels. A similar analytical approach has been used in previous studies on m6A (PMID: 31548708). To address the reviewer’s concern, we have annotated the corresponding positions of the questioned data points with arrows in Author response image 5.

      Author response image 5.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      The authors investigated the role of the C. elegans Flower protein, FLWR-1, in synaptic transmission, vesicle recycling, and neuronal excitability. They confirmed that FLWR-1 localizes to synaptic vesicles and the plasma membrane and facilitates synaptic vesicle recycling at neuromuscular junctions. They observed that hyperstimulation results in endosome accumulation in flwr-1 mutant synapses, suggesting that FLWR-1 facilitates the breakdown of endocytic endosomes. Using tissue-specific rescue experiments, the authors showed that expressing FLWR-1 in GABAergic neurons restored the aldicarb-resistant phenotype of flwr-1 mutants to wild-type levels. By contrast, cholinergic neuron expression did not rescue aldicarb sensitivity at all. They also showed that FLWR-1 removal leads to increased Ca<sup>2+</sup> signaling in motor neurons upon photo-stimulation. From these findings, the authors conclude that FLWR-1 helps maintain the balance between excitation and inhibition (E/I) by preferentially regulating GABAergic neuronal excitability in a cell-autonomous manner. 

      Overall, the work presents solid data and interesting findings, however the proposed cell-autonomous model of GABAergic FLWR-1 function may be overly simplified in my opinion. 

      Most of my previous comments have been addressed; however, two issues remain. 

      (1) I appreciate the authors' efforts conducting additional aldicarb sensitivity assays that combine muscle-specific rescue with either cholinergic or GABergic neuron-specific expression of FLWR-1. In the revised manuscript, they conclude, "This did not show any additive effects to the pure neuronal rescues, thus FLWR-1 effects on muscle cell responses to cholinergic agonists must be cellautonomous." However, I find this interpretation confusing for the reasons outlined below. 

      Figure 1 - Figure Supplement 3B shows that muscle-specific FLWR-1 expression in flwr-1 mutants significantly restores aldicarb sensitivity. However, when FLWR-1 is co-expressed in both cholinergic neurons and muscle, the worms behave like flwr-1 mutants and no rescue is observed. Similarly, cholinergic FLWR-1 alone fails to restore aldicarb sensitivity (shown in the previous manuscript).

      This data is still shown in the manuscript, Fig. 3D. We interpreted our finding in the muscle/cholinergic co-rescue experiment as meaning, that FLWR-1 in cholinergic neurons over-compensates, so worms should be resistant, and the rescuing effect of muscle FLWR-1 is therefore cancelled. But it is true, if this were the case, why does the pure cholinergic rescue not show over-compensation? We added a sentence to acknowledge this inconsistency and we added a sentence in the discussion (see also below, comment 1) of reviewer #2).

      These observations indicate a non-cell-autonomous interaction between cholinergic neurons and muscle, rather than a strictly muscle cell-autonomous mechanism. In other words, FLWR-1 expressed in cholinergic neurons appears to negate or block the rescue effect of muscle-expressed FLWR-1. Therefore, FLWR-1 could play a more complex role in coordinating physiology across different tissues. This complexity may affect interpretations of Ca<sup>2+</sup> dynamics and/or functional data, particularly in relation to E/I balance, and thus warrants careful discussion or further investigation. 

      For the Ca<sup>2+</sup> dynamics, we think the effects of flwr-1 are likely very immediate, as the imaging assay relies on a sensor expressed directly in the neurons or muscles under study, and not on indirect phenotypes as muscle contraction and behavior, that depend on an interplay of several cell types influencing each other.

      (2) The revised manuscript includes new GCaMP analyses restricted to synaptic puncta. The authors mention that "we compared Ca<sup>2+</sup> signals in synaptic puncta versus axon shafts, and did not find any differences," concluding that "FLWR-1's impact is local, in synaptic boutons." This is puzzling: the similarity of Ca<sup>2+</sup> signals in synaptic regions and axon shafts seems to indicate a more global effect on Ca<sup>2+</sup> dynamics or may simply reflect limited temporal resolution in distinguishing local from global signals due to rapid Ca<sup>2+</sup> diffusion. The authors should clarify how they reached the conclusion that FLWR-1 has a localized impact at synaptic boutons, given that synaptic and axonal signals appear similar. Based on the presented data, the evidence supporting a local effect of FLWR-1 on Ca<sup>2+</sup> dynamics appears limited.

      We apologize, here we simply overlooked this misleading wording in our rebuttal letter. The data we mentioned, showing no obvious difference in axon vs. bouton, are shown below, including time constants for the onset and the offset of the stimulus (data is peak normalized for better visualization):

      Author response image 1.

      One can see that axonal Ca<sup>2+</sup> signals may rise a bit slower than synaptic Ca<sup>2+</sup> signals, as expected for Ca<sup>2+</sup> entering the boutons, and then diffusing out into the axon. The loss of FLWR1 does not affect this. However, the temporal resolution of the used GCaMP6f sensor is ca. 200 ms to reach peak, and the decay time (to t1/2) is ca. 400 ms (PMID: 23868258). Thus, it would be difficult to see effects based on Ca<sup>2+</sup> diffusion using this assay. For the decay, this is similar for both axon and synapse, while flwr-1 mutants do not reduce Ca<sup>2+</sup> as much as wt. In the axon, there is a seemingly slightly slower reduction in flwr-1 mutants, however, given the kinetics of the sensor, this is likely not a meaningful difference. Therefore, we wrote we did not find differences. The interpretation should not have been that the impact of FLWR-1 is local. It may be true if one could image this at faster time scales, i.e. if there is more FLWR-1 localized in boutons (as indicated by our data showing FLWR-1 enrichment in boutons; Fig. 3), and when considering its possible effect on MCA-3 localization (and assuming that MCA-3 is the active player in Ca<sup>2+</sup> removal), i.e. FLWR-1 recruiting MCA-3 to boutons (Fig. 9C, D).  

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The Flower protein is expressed in various cell types, including neurons. Previous studies in flies have proposed that Flower plays a role in neuronal endocytosis by functioning as a Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel. However, its precise physiological roles and molecular mechanisms in neurons remain largely unclear. This study employs C. elegans as a model to explore the function and mechanism of FLWR-1, the C. elegans homolog of Flower. This study offers intriguing observations that could potentially challenge or expand our current understanding of the Flower protein. Nevertheless, further clarification or additional experiments are required to substantiate the study's conclusions. 

      Strengths: 

      A range of approaches was employed, including the use of a flwr-1 knockout strain, assessment of cholinergic synaptic activity via analyzing aldicarb (a cholinesterase inhibitor) sensitivity, imaging Ca<sup>2+</sup> dynamics with GCaMP3, analyzing pHluorin fluorescence, examination of presynaptic ultrastructure by EM, and recording postsynaptic currents at the neuromuscular junction. The findings include notable observations on the effects of flwr-1 knockout, such as increased Ca<sup>2+</sup> levels in motor neurons, changes in endosome numbers in motor neurons, altered aldicarb sensitivity, and potential involvement of a Ca<sup>2+</sup>-ATPase and PIP2 binding in FLWR-1's function. 

      The authors have adequately addressed most of my previous concerns, however, I recommend minor revisions to further strengthen the study's rigor and interpretation: 

      Major suggestions 

      (1) This study relies heavily on aldicarb assays to support its conclusions. While these assays are valuable, their results may not fully align with direct assessment of neurotransmitter release from motor neurons. For instance, prior work has shown that two presynaptic modulators identified through aldicarb sensitivity assays exhibited no corresponding electrophysiological defects at the neuromuscular junction (Liu et al., J Neurosci 27: 10404-10413, 2007). Similarly, at least one study from the Kaplan lab has noted discrepancies between aldicarb assays and electrophysiological analyses. The authors should consider adding a few sentences in the Discussion to acknowledge this limitation and the potential caveats of using aldicarb assays, especially since some of the aldicarb assay results in this study are not easily interpretable. 

      Aldicarb assays have been used very successfully in identifying mutants with defects in chemical synaptic transmission, and entire genetic screens have been conducted this way. The reviewer is right, one needs to realize that it is the balance of excitation and inhibition at the NMJ of C. elegans, which underlies the effects on the rate of aldicarb-induced paralysis, not just cholinergic transmission. I.e. if a given mutant affects cholinergic and GABAergic transmission differently, things become difficult to interpret, particularly if also muscle physiology is affected. Therefore, we combined mutant analyses with cell-type specific rescue. We acknowledge that results are nonetheless difficult to interpret. We thus added a sentence in the first paragraph of the discussion.

      (2) The manuscript states, "Elevated Ca<sup>2+</sup> levels were not further enhanced in a flwr-1;mca-3 double mutant." (lines 549-550). However, Figure 7C does not include statistical comparisons between the single and double mutants of flwr-1 and mca-3. Please add the necessary statistical analysis to support this statement. 

      Because we only marked significant differences in that figure, and n.s. was not shown. This was stated in the figure legend.

      (3) The term "Ca<sup>2+</sup> influx" should be avoided, as this study does not provide direct evidence (e.g. voltage-clamp recordings of Ca<sup>2+</sup> inward currents in motor neurons) for an effect of the flwr-1 mutation of Ca<sup>2+</sup> influx. The observed increase in neuronal GCaMP signals in response to optogenetic activation of ChR2 may result from, or be influenced by, Ca<sup>2+</sup> mobilization from of intracellular stores. For example, optogenetic stimulation could trigger ryanodine receptor-mediated Ca<sup>2+</sup> release from the ER via calcium-induced calcium release (CICR) or depolarization-induced calcium release (DICR). It would be more appropriate to describe the observed increase in Ca<sup>2+</sup> signal as "Ca<sup>2+</sup> elevation" rather than increased "Ca<sup>2+</sup> influx". 

      Ok, yes, we can do this, we referred by ‘influx’ to cytosolic Ca<sup>2+</sup>, that fluxes into the cytosol, be it from the internal stores or the extracellular. Extracellular influx, more or less, inevitably will trigger further influx from internal stores, to our understanding. We changed this to “elevated Ca<sup>2+</sup> levels” or “Ca<sup>2+</sup> level rise” or “Ca<sup>2+</sup> level increase”.

      Recommendations for the authors: 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      A thorough discussion on the impact of cell-autonomous versus non-cell-autonomous effects is necessary. 

      Revise and clarify the distinction between local and global Ca²⁺ changes. 

      see above.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Minor suggestions 

      (1) In "Few-Ubi was shown to facilitate recovery of neurons following intense synaptic activity (Yao et al.,....." (lines 283-284), please specify which aspects of neuronal recovery are influenced by the Flower protein. 

      We added “refilling of SV pools”.

      (2) The abbreviation "Few-Ubi" is used for the Drosophila Flower protein (e.g., line 283, Figure 1A, and Figure 8A). Please clarify what "Ubi" stands for and verify whether its inclusion in the protein name is appropriate.

      This is inconsistent across the literature, sometimes Fwe-Ubi is also referred to as FweA. We now added this term. Ubi refers to ubiquitous (“Therefore, we named this isoform fweubi because it is expressed ubiquitously in imaginal discs“) (Rhiner 2010)

      (3) The manuscript uses "pflwr-1" (line 303 and elsewhere) to denote the flwr-1 promoter. This notation could be misleading, as it may be interpreted as a gene name. Please consider using either "flwr-1p" or "Pflwr-1" instead. Additionally, ensure proper italicization of gene names throughout the manuscript. 

      We changed this throughout. We will change to italicized at proof stage, it would be too timeconsuming to spot these incidents now.

      (4) The authors tagged the C-terminus of FLWR-1 by GFP (lines 321). The fusion protein is referred to as "GFP::FLWR-1" throughout the manuscript. Please verify whether "FLWR-1::GFP" would be the more appropriate designation.

      Thank you, yes, we changed this in the text, GFP is indeed N-terminal.

      (5) In "This did not show any additive effects...." (line 363), please clarify what "This" refers to. 

      Altered to “The combined rescues did not show any additive effects…”

      (6) In "..., supporting our previous finding of increased neurotransmitter release in GABAergic neurons" (lines 412-413), please provide a citation for the referenced previous study.

      This refers to our aldicarb data within this paper, just further up in the text. We removed “previous”.

      (7) Figure 4C, D examines the effect of flwr-1 mutation on body length in the genetic background of the unc-29 mutation, which selectively disrupts the levamisole-sensitive acetylcholine receptor. Please comment on the rationale for implicating only the levamisole receptor rather than the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor in muscle cells. 

      This was because we used a behavioral assay. Despite the fact that the homopentameric ACR16/N-AChR mediate about 2/3 of the peak currents in response to acute ACh application to the NMJ (e.g. Almedom et al., EMBO J, 2009), the acr-16 mutant has virtually no behavioral / locomotion phenotype. Likely, this is because the heteropentameric, UNC-29 containing LAChR, while only contributing 1/3 of the peak current, desensitizes much more slowly and thus unc-29 mutants show a severe behavioral phenotype (uncoordinated locomotion, etc.). We thus did not expect a major effect when performing the behavoral assay in acr-16 mutants and thus chose the unc-29 mutant background.

      (8) In "we found no evidence ....insertion into the PM (Yao et al., 2009)", It appears that the cited paper was not authored by any of the current manuscript. Please confirm whether this citation is correctly attributed. 

      This sentence was arranged in a misleading way, we did not mean that we authored this paper. It was change in the text: “While a facilitating role of Flower in endocytosis appears to be conserved in C. elegans, in contrast to previous findings from Drosophila (Yao et al., 2009), we found no evidence that FLWR-1 conducts Ca<sup>2+</sup> upon insertion into the PM.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      As to the exceptionally minor issue, namely, correction for multiple statistical tests (minor because the data and the error are presented in the text). We have now conducted one-way ANOVA to back the data displayed in Fig 4A., and Supp. Figs 19 and 21. In each case ANOVA revealed a highly significant difference among means: Dunnett’s post hoc test was then used to test each result against SBW25, with the multiple comparisons corrected for in the analysis.

      This resulted in changes to the description of the statistical analysis in the following captions:

      To Figure 4.

      Where we previously referred to paired t-tests we now state:  ANOVA revealed a highly significant difference among means [F<sub>7,16</sub> = 8.19, p < 0.001] with Dunnett’s post-hoc test adjusted for multiple comparisons showing that five genotypes (*) differ significantly (p < 0.05) from SBW25.

      To Supplementary Figure 19.

      Where we previously referred to paired t-tests we now state: ANOVA revealed a highly significant difference among means [F<sub>7,16</sub> = 16.74, p < 0.001] with Dunnett’s post-hoc test adjusted for multiple comparisons showing that three genotypes (*) differ significantly (p < 0.05) from SBW25.

      To Supplementary Figure 21.

      Where we previously referred to paired t-tests we now state:  ANOVA revealed a highly significant difference among means [F<sub>7,89</sub> = 9.97, p < 0.0001] with Dunnett’s post-hoc test adjusted for multiple comparisons showing that SBW25 ∆mreB and SBW25 ∆PFLU4921-4925 are significantly different (*) from SBW25 (p < 0.05).


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors performed experimental evolution of MreB mutants that have a slow-growing round phenotype and studied the subsequent evolutionary trajectory using analysis tools from molecular biology. It was remarkable and interesting that they found that the original phenotype was not restored (most common in these studies) but that the round phenotype was maintained. 

      Strengths: 

      The finding that the round phenotype was maintained during evolution rather than that the original phenotype, rod-shaped cells, was recovered is interesting. The paper extensively investigates what happens during adaptation with various different techniques. Also, the extensive discussion of the findings at the end of the paper is well thought through and insighXul. 

      Weaknesses: 

      I find there are three general weaknesses: 

      (1) Although the paper states in the abstract that it emphasizes "new knowledge to be gained" it remains unclear what this concretely is. On page 4 they state 3 three research questions, these could be more extensively discussed in the abstract. Also, these questions read more like genetics questions while the paper is a lot about cell biological findings. 

      Thank you for drawing attention to the unnecessary and gratuitous nature of the last sentence of the Abstract. We are in agreement. It has been modified, and we have taken  advantage of additional word space to draw attention to the importance of the two competing (testable) hypotheses laid out in the Discussion. 

      As to new knowledge, please see the Results and particularly the Discussion. But beyond this, and as recognised by others, there is real value for cell biology in seeing how (and whether) selection can compensate for effects that are deleterious to fitness. The results will very often depart from those delivered from, for example, suppressor analyses, or bottom up engineering. 

      In the work recounted in our paper, we chose to focus – by way of proof-of principle – on the most commonly observed mutations, namely, those within pbp1A.  But beyond this gene, we detected mutations  in other components of the cell shape / division machinery whose connections are not yet understood and which are the focus of on-going investigation.  

      As to the three questions posed at the end of the Introduction, the first concerns whether selection can compensate for deleterious effects of deleting mreB (a question that pertains to evolutionary aspects); the second seeks understanding of genetic factors; the third aims to shed light on the genotype-to-phenotype map (which is where the cell biology comes into play).  Given space restrictions, we cannot see how we could usefully expand, let alone discuss, the three questions raised at the end of the Introduction in restrictive space available in the Abstract.   

      (2) It is not clear to me from the text what we already know about the restoration of MreB loss from suppressors studies (in the literature). Are there suppressor screens in the literature and which part of the findings is consistent with suppressor screens and which parts are new knowledge?  

      As stated in the Introduction, a previous study with B. subtilis (which harbours three MreB isoforms and where the isoform named “MreB” is essential for growth under normal conditions), suppressors of MreB lethality were found to occur in ponA, a class A penicillin binding protein (Kawai et al., 2009). This led to recognition that MreB plays a role in recruiting Pbp1A to the lateral cell wall. On the other hand, Patel et al. (2020) have shown that deletion of classA PBPs leads to an up-regulation of rod complex activity. Although there is a connection between rod complex and class A PBPs, a further study has shown that the two systems work semi-autonomously (Cho et al., 2016). 

      Our work confirms a connection between MreB and Pbp1A, and has shed new light on how this interaction is established by means of natural selection, which targets the integrity of cell wall. Indeed, the Rod complex and class A PBPs have complementary activities in the building of the cell wall with each of the two systems able to compensate for the other in order to maintain cell wall integrity. Please see the major part of the Discussion. In terms of specifics, the connection between mreB and pbp1A (shown by Kawai et al (2009)) is indirect because it is based on extragenic transposon insertions. In our study, the genetic connection is mechanistically demonstrated.  In addition, we capture that the evolutionary dynamics is rapid and we finally enriched understanding of the genotype-to-phenotype map.

      (3) The clarity of the figures, captions, and data quantification need to be improved.  

      Modifications have been implemented. Please see responses to specific queries listed below.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Yulo et al. show that deletion of MreB causes reduced fitness in P. fluorescens SBW25 and that this reduction in fitness may be primarily caused by alterations in cell volume. To understand the effect of cell volume on proliferation, they performed an evolution experiment through which they predominantly obtained mutations in pbp1A that decreased cell volume and increased viability. Furthermore, they provide evidence to propose that the pbp1A mutants may have decreased PG cross-linking which might have helped in restoring the fitness by rectifying the disorganised PG synthesis caused by the absence of MreB. Overall this is an interesting study. 

      Queries: 

      Do the small cells of mreB null background indeed have no DNA? It is not apparent from the DAPI images presented in Supplementary Figure 17. A more detailed analysis will help to support this claim. 

      It is entirely possible that small cells have no DNA, because if cell division is aberrant then division can occur prior to DNA segregation resulting in cells with no DNA. It is clear from microscopic observation that both small and large cells do not divide. It is, however, true, that we are unable to state – given our measures of DNA content – that small cells have no DNA. We have made this clear on page 13, paragraph 2.

      What happens to viability and cell morphology when pbp1A is removed in the mreB null background? If it is actually a decrease in pbp1A activity that leads to the rescue, then pbp1A- mreB- cells should have better viability, reduced cell volume and organised PG synthesis. Especially as the PG cross-linking is almost at the same level as the T362 or D484 mutant.  

      Please see fitness data in Supp. Fig. 13. Fitness of ∆mreBpbp1A is no different to that caused by a point mutation. Cells remain round.  

      What is the status of PG cross-linking in ΔmreB Δpflu4921-4925 (Line 7)? 

      This was not analysed as the focus of this experiment was PBPs. A priori, there is no obvious reason to suspect that ∆4921-25 (which lacks oprD) would be affected in PBP activity.

      What is the morphology of the cells in Line 2 and Line 5? It may be interesting to see if PG cross-linking and cell wall synthesis is also altered in the cells from these lines. 

      The focus of investigation was restricted to L1, L4 and L7. Indeed, it would be interesting to look at the mutants harbouring mutations in :sZ, but this is beyond scope of the present investigation (but is on-going). The morphology of L2 and L5 are shown in Supp. Fig. 9.

      The data presented in 4B should be quantified with appropriate input controls. 

      Band intensity has now been quantified (see new Supp. Fig .20). The controls are SBW25, SBW25∆pbp1A, SBW25 ∆mreB and SBW25 ∆mreBpbp1A as explained in the paper.

      What are the statistical analyses used in 4A and what is the significance value? 

      Our oversight. These were reported in Supp. Fig. 19, but should also have been presented in Fig. 4A. Data are means of three biological replicates. The statistical tests are comparisons between each mutant and SBW25, and assessed by paired t-tests.  

      A more rigorous statistical analysis indicating the number of replicates should be done throughout. 

      We have checked and made additions where necessary and where previously lacking. In particular, details are provided in Fig. 1E, Fig. 4A and Fig. 4B. For Fig. 4C we have produced quantitative measures of heterogeneity in new cell wall insertion. These are reported in Supp. Fig. 21 (and referred to in the text and figure caption) and show that patterns of cell wall insertion in ∆mreB are highly heterogeneous.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      This paper addresses an understudied problem in microbiology: the evolution of bacterial cell shape. Bacterial cells can take a range of forms, among the most common being rods and spheres. The consensus view is that rods are the ancestral form and spheres the derived form. The molecular machinery governing these different shapes is fairly well understood but the evolutionary drivers responsible for the transition between rods and spheres are not. Enter Yulo et al.'s work. The authors start by noting that deletion of a highly conserved gene called MreB in the Gram-negative bacterium Pseudomonas fluorescens reduces fitness but does not kill the cell (as happens in other species like E. coli and B. subtilis) and causes cells to become spherical rather than their normal rod shape. They then ask whether evolution for 1000 generations restores the rod shape of these cells when propagated in a rich, benign medium. 

      The answer is no. The evolved lineages recovered fitness by the end of the experiment, growing just as well as the unevolved rod-shaped ancestor, but remained spherical. The authors provide an impressively detailed investigation of the genetic and molecular changes that evolved. Their leading results are: 

      (1) The loss of fitness associated with MreB deletion causes high variation in cell volume among sibling cells after cell division. 

      (2) Fitness recovery is largely driven by a single, loss-of-function point mutation that evolves within the first ~250 generations that reduces the variability in cell volume among siblings. 

      (3) The main route to restoring fitness and reducing variability involves loss of function mutations causing a reduction of TPase and peptidoglycan cross-linking, leading to a disorganized cell wall architecture characteristic of spherical cells. 

      The inferences made in this paper are on the whole well supported by the data. The authors provide a uniquely comprehensive account of how a key genetic change leads to gains in fitness and the spectrum of phenotypes that are impacted and provide insight into the molecular mechanisms underlying models of cell shape. 

      Suggested improvements and clarifications include: 

      (1) A schematic of the molecular interactions governing cell wall formation could be useful in the introduction to help orient readers less familiar with the current state of knowledge and key molecular players. 

      We understand that this would be desirable, but there are numerous recent reviews with detailed schematics that we think the interested reader would be better consulting. These are referenced in the text.

      (2) More detail on the bioinformatics approaches to assembling genomes and identifying the key compensatory mutations are needed, particularly in the methods section. This whole subject remains something of an art, with many different tools used. Specifying these tools, and the parameter settings used, will improve transparency and reproducibility, should it be needed. 

      We overlooked providing this detail, which has now been corrected by provision of more information in the Materials and Methods. In short we used Breseq, the clonal option, with default parameters. Additional analyses were conducted using Genieous. The BreSeq output files are provided https://doi.org/10.17617/3.CU5SX1 (which include all read data).

      (3) Corrections for multiple comparisons should be used and reported whenever more than one construct or strain is compared to the common ancestor, as in Supplementary Figure 19A (relative PG density of different constructs versus the SBW25 ancestor). 

      The data presented in Supp Fig 19A (and Fig 4A) do not involve multiple comparisons. In each instance the comparison is between SBW25 and each of the different mutants. A paired t-test is thus appropriate.

      (4) The authors refrain from making strong claims about the nature of selection on cell shape, perhaps because their main interest is the molecular mechanisms responsible. However, I think more can be said on the evolutionary side, along two lines. First, they have good evidence that cell volume is a trait under strong stabilizing selection, with cells of intermediate volume having the highest fitness. This is notable because there are rather few examples of stabilizing selection where the underlying mechanisms responsible are so well characterized. Second, this paper succeeds in providing an explanation for how spherical cells can readily evolve from a rod-shaped ancestor but leaves open how rods evolved in the first place. Can the authors speculate as to how the complex, coordinated system leading to rods first evolved? Or why not all cells have lost rod shape and become spherical, if it is so easy to achieve? These are important evolutionary questions that remain unaddressed. The manuscript could be improved by at least flagging these as unanswered questions deserving of further attention. 

      These are interesting points, but our capacity to comment is entirely speculative. Nonetheless, we have added an additional paragraph to the Discussion that expresses an opinion that has yet to receive attention:

      “Given the complexity of the cell wall synthesis machinery that defines rod-shape in bacteria, it is hard to imagine how rods could have evolved prior to cocci. However, the cylindrical shape offers a number of advantages. For a given biomass (or cell volume), shape determines surface area of the cell envelope, which is the smallest surface area associated with the spherical shape. As shape sets the surface/volume ratio, it also determines the ratio between supply (proportional to the surface) and demand (proportional to cell volume). From this point of view, it is more efficient to be cylindrical (Young 2006). This also holds for surface attachment and biofilm formation (Young 2006). But above all, for growing cells, the ratio between supply and demand is constant in rod shaped bacteria, whereas it decreases for cocci. This requires that spherical cells evolve complex regulatory networks capable of maintaining the correct concentration of cellular proteins despite changes in surface/volume ratio. From this point of view, rod-shaped bacteria offer opportunities to develop unsophisticated regulatory networks.”

      why not all cells have lost rod shape and become spherical.

      Please see Kevin Young’s 2006 review on the adaptive significance of cell shape

      The value of this paper stems both from the insight it provides on the underlying molecular model for cell shape and from what it reveals about some key features of the evolutionary process. The paper, as it currently stands, provides more on which to chew for the molecular side than the evolutionary side. It provides valuable insights into the molecular architecture of how cells grow and what governs their shape. The evolutionary phenomena emphasized by the authors - the importance of loss-of-function mutations in driving rapid compensatory fitness gains and that multiple genetic and molecular routes to high fitness are often available, even in the relatively short time frame of a few hundred generations - are well understood phenomena and so arguably of less broad interest. The more compelling evolutionary questions concern the nature and cause of stabilizing selection (in this case cell volume) and the evolution of complexity. The paper misses an opportunity to highlight the former and, while claiming to shed light on the latter, provides rather little useful insight. 

      Thank you for these thoughts and comments. However, we disagree that the experimental results are an overlooked opportunity to discuss stabilising selection. Stabilising selection occurs when selection favours a particular phenotype causing a reduction in underpinning population-level genetic diversity. This is not happening when selection acts on SBW25 ∆mreB leading to a restoration of fitness. Driving the response are biophysical factors, primarily the critical need to balance elongation rate with rate of septation. This occurs without any change in underlying genetic diversity.  

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      Reviewer 1 (Recommendations for the Authors): 

      Hereby my suggestion for improvement of the quantification of the data, the figures, and the text. 

      -  p 14, what is the unit of elongation rate?  

      At first mention we have made clear that the unit is given in minutes^-1

      -  p 14, please give an error bar for both p=0.85 and f=0.77, to be able to conclude they are different 

      Error on the probability p is estimated at the 95% confidence interval by the formula:1.96 , where N is the total number of cells. This has been added in the paragraph p »probability » of the Image Analysis section in the Material and Methods. 

      We also added errors on p measurement in the main text.

      -  p 14, all the % differences need an errorbar 

      The error bars and means are given in Fig 3C and 3D.

      -  Figure 1B adds units to compactness, and what does it represent? Is the cell size the estimated volume (that is mentioned in the caption)? Shouldn't the datapoints have error bars? 

      Compactness is defined in the “Image Analysis” section of the Material and Methods. It is a dimensionless parameter. The distribution of individual cell shapes / sizes are depicted in Fig 1B. Error does arise from segmentation, but the degree of variance (few pixels) is much smaller than the representations of individual cells shown.

      -  Figure 1C caption, are the 50.000 cells? 

      Correct. Figure caption has been altered.

      -  Figure 1D, first the elongation rate is described as a volume per minute, but now, looking at the units it is a rate, how is it normalized? 

      Elongation rate is explained in the Materials and Methods (see the image analysis section) and is not volume per minute. It is dV/dt = r*V (the unit of r is min^-1). Page 9 includes specific mention of the unit of r.

      -  Figure 1E, how many cells (n) per replicate? 

      Our apologies. We have corrected the figure caption that now reads:

      “Proportion of live cells in ancestral SBW25 (black bar) and ΔmreB (grey bar) based on LIVE/DEAD BacLight Bacterial Viability Kit protocol. Cells were pelleted at 2,000 x g for 2 minutes to preserve ΔmreB cell integrity. Error bars are means and standard deviation of three biological replicates (n>100).”

      -  Figure 1G, how does this compare to the wildtype 

      The volume for wild type SBW25 is 3.27µm^3 (within the “white zone”). This is mentioned in the text.

      -  Figure 2B, is this really volume, not size? And can you add microscopy images? 

      The x-axis is volume (see Materials and Methods, subsection image analysis). Images are available in Supp. Fig. 9.

      -  Figure 3A what does L1, L4 and L7 refer too? Is it correct that these same lines are picked for WT and delta_mreB 

      Thank you for pointing this out. This was an earlier nomenclature. It was shorthand for the mutants that are specified everywhere else by genotype and has now been corrected. 

      -  Figure 3c: either way write out p, so which probability, or you need a simple cartoon that is plotted. 

      The value p is the probability to proceed to the next generation and is explained in Materials and Methods  subsection image analysis.  We feel this is intuitive and does not require a cartoon. We nonetheless added a sentence to the Materials and Methods to aid clarity.

      -  Figure 4B can you add a ladder to the gel? 

      No ladder was included, but the controls provide all the necessary information. The band corresponding to PBP1A is defined by presence in SBW25, but absence in SBW25 ∆pbp1A.

      -  Figure 4c, can you improve the quantification of these images? How were these selected and how well do they represent the community? 

      We apologise for the lack of quantitative description for data presented in Fig 4C. This has now been corrected. In brief, we measured the intensity of fluorescent signal from between 10 and 14 cells and computed the mean and standard deviation of pixel intensity for each cell. To rule out possible artifacts associated with variation of the mean intensity, we calculated the ratio of the standard deviation divided by the square root of the mean. These data reveal heterogeneity in cell wall synthesis and provide strong statistical support for the claim that cell wall synthesis in ∆mreB is significantly more heterogeneous than the control. The data are provided in new Supp. Fig. 21. 

      Minor comments: 

      -  It would be interesting if the findings of this experimental evolution study could be related to comparative studies (if these have ever been executed).  

      Little is possible, but Hendrickson and Yulo published a portion of the originally posted preprint separately. We include a citation to that paper. 

      -  p 13, halfway through the page, the second paragraph lacks a conclusion, why do we care about DNA content? 

      It is a minor observation that was included by way of providing a complete description of cell phenotype.  

      -  p 17, "suggesting that ... loss-of-function", I do no not understand what this is based upon. 

      We show that the fitness of a pbp1A deletion is indistinguishable from the fitness of one of the pbp1A point mutants. This fact establishes that the point mutation had the same effects as a gene deletion thus supporting the claim that the point mutations identified during the course of the selection experiment decrease (or destroy) PBP1A function.

      -  p 25, at the top of the page: do you have a reference for the statement that a disorganized cell wall architecture is suited to the topology of spherical cells? 

      The statement is a conclusion that comes from our reasoning. It stems from the fact that it is impossible to entirely map the surface of a sphere with parallel strands.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      To the Senior Editor and the Reviewing Editor:

      We sincerely appreciate the valuable comments provided by the reviewers, the reviewing editor, and the senior editor. After carefully reviewing and considering the comments, we have addressed the key concerns raised by the reviewers and made appropriate modifications to the article in the revised manuscript.

      The main revisions made to the manuscript are as follows:

      1) We have added comparison experiments with TNDM (see Fig. 2 and Fig. S2).

      2) We conducted new synthetic experiments to demonstrate that our conclusions are not a by-product of d-VAE (see Fig. S2 and Fig. S11).

      3) We have provided a detailed explanation of how our proposed criteria, especially the second criterion, can effectively exclude the selection of unsuitable signals.

      4) We have included a semantic overview figure of d-VAE (Fig. S1) and a visualization plot of latent variables (Fig. S13).

      5) We have elaborated on the model details of d-VAE, as well as the hyperparameter selection and experimental settings of other comparison models.

      We believe these revisions have significantly improved the clarity and comprehensibility of the manuscript. Thank you for the opportunity to address these important points.

      Reviewer #1

      Q1: “First, the model in the paper is almost identical to an existing VAE model (TNDM) that makes use of weak supervision with behaviour in the same way [1]. This paper should at least be referenced. If the authors wish they could compare their model to TNDM, which combines a state space model with smoothing similar to LFADS. Given that TNDM achieves very good behaviour reconstructions, it may be on par with this model without the need for a Kalman filter (and hence may achieve better separation of behaviour-related and unrelated dynamics).”

      Our model significantly differs from TNDM in several aspects. While TNDM also constrains latent variables to decode behavioral information, it does not impose constraints to maximize behavioral information in the generated relevant signals. The trade-off between the decoding and reconstruction capabilities of generated relevant signals is the most significant contribution of our approach, which is not reflected in TNDM. In addition, the backbone network of signal extraction and the prior distribution of the two models are also different.

      It's worth noting that our method does not require a Kalman filter. Kalman filter is used for post hoc assessment of the linear decoding ability of the generated signals. Please note that extracting and evaluating relevant signals are two distinct stages.

      Heeding your suggestion, we have incorporated comparison experiments involving TNDM into the revised manuscript. Detailed information on model hyperparameters and training settings can be found in the Methods section in the revised manuscripts.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q2: “Second, in my opinion, the claims regarding identifiability are overstated - this matters as the results depend on this to some extent. Recent work shows that VAEs generally suffer from identifiability problems due to the Gaussian latent space [2]. This paper also hints that weak supervision may help to resolve such issues, so this model as well as TNDM and CEBRA may indeed benefit from this. In addition however, it appears that the relative weight of the KL Divergence in the VAE objective is chosen very small compared to the likelihood (0.1%), so the influence of the prior is weak and the model may essentially learn the average neural trajectories while underestimating the noise in the latent variables. This, in turn, could mean that the model will not autoencode neural activity as well as it should, note that an average R2 in this case will still be high (I could not see how this is actually computed). At the same time, the behaviour R2 will be large simply because the different movement trajectories are very distinct. Since the paper makes claims about the roles of different neurons, it would be important to understand how well their single trial activities are reconstructed, which can perhaps best be investigated by comparing the Poisson likelihood (LFADS is a good baseline model). Taken together, while it certainly makes sense that well-tuned neurons contribute more to behaviour decoding, I worry that the very interesting claim that neurons with weak tuning contain behavioural signals is not well supported.”

      We don’t think our distilled signals are average neural trajectories without variability. The quality of reconstructing single trial activities can be observed in Figure 3i and Figure S4. Neural trajectories in Fig. 3i and Fig. S4 show that our distilled signals are not average neural trajectories. Furthermore, if each trial activity closely matched the average neural trajectory, the Fano Factor (FF) should theoretically approach 0. However, our distilled signals exhibit a notable departure from this expectation, as evident in Figure 3c, d, g, and f. Regarding the diminished influence of the KL Divergence: Given that the ground truth of latent variable distribution is unknown, even a learned prior distribution might not accurately reflect the true distribution. We found the pronounced impact of the KL divergence would prove detrimental to the decoding and reconstruction performance. As a result, we opt to reduce the weight of the KL divergence term. Even so, KL divergence can still effectively align the distribution of latent variables with the distribution of prior latent variables, as illustrated in Fig. S13. Notably, our goal is extracting behaviorally-relevant signals from given raw signals rather than generating diverse samples from the prior distribution. When aim to separating relevant signals, we recommend reducing the influence of KL divergence. Regarding comparing the Poisson likelihood: We compared Poisson log-likelihood among different methods (except PSID since their obtained signals have negative values), and the results show that d-VAE outperforms other methods.

      Author response image 1.

      Regarding how R2 is computed: , where and denote ith sample of raw signals, ith sample of distilled relevant signals, and the mean of raw signals. If the distilled signals exactly match the raw signals, the sum of squared error is zero, thus R2=1. If the distilled signals always are equal to R2=0. If the distilled signals are worse than the mean estimation, R2 is negative, negative R2 is set to zero.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q3: “Third, and relating to this issue, I could not entirely follow the reasoning in the section arguing that behavioural information can be inferred from neurons with weak selectivity, but that it is not linearly decodable. It is right to test if weak supervision signals bleed into the irrelevant subspace, but I could not follow the explanations. Why, for instance, is the ANN decoder on raw data (I assume this is a decoder trained fully supervised) not equal in performance to the revenant distilled signals? Should a well-trained non-linear decoder not simply yield a performance ceiling? Next, if I understand correctly, distilled signals were obtained from the full model. How does a model perform trained only on the weakly tuned neurons? Is it possible that the subspaces obtained with the model are just not optimally aligned for decoding? This could be a result of limited identifiability or model specifics that bias reconstruction to averages (a well-known problem of VAEs). I, therefore, think this analysis should be complemented with tests that do not depend on the model.”

      Regarding “Why, for instance, is the ANN decoder on raw data (I assume this is a decoder trained fully supervised) not equal in performance to the relevant distilled signals? Should a well-trained non-linear decoder not simply yield a performance ceiling?”: In fact, the decoding performance of raw signals with ANN is quite close to the ceiling. However, due to the presence of significant irrelevant signals in raw signals, decoding models like deep neural networks are more prone to overfitting when trained on noisy raw signals compared to behaviorally-relevant signals. Consequently, we anticipate that the distilled signals will demonstrate superior decoding generalization. This phenomenon is evident in Fig. 2 and Fig. S1, where the decoding performance of the distilled signals surpasses that of the raw signals, albeit not by a substantial margin.

      Regarding “Next, if I understand correctly, distilled signals were obtained from the full model. How does a model perform trained only on the weakly tuned neurons? Is it possible that the subspaces obtained with the model are just not optimally aligned for decoding?”:Distilled signals (involving all neurons) are obtained by d-VAE. Subsequently, we use ANN to evaluate the performance of smaller and larger R2 neurons. Please note that separating and evaluating relevant signals are two distinct stages.

      Regarding the reasoning in the section arguing that smaller R2 neurons encode rich information, we would like to provide a detailed explanation:

      1) After extracting relevant signals through d-VAE, we specifically selected neurons characterized by smaller R2 values (Here, R2 signifies the proportion of neuronal activity variance explained by the linear encoding model, calculated using raw signals). Subsequently, we employed both KF and ANN to assess the decoding performance of these neurons. Remarkably, our findings revealed that smaller R2 neurons, previously believed to carry limited behavioral information, indeed encode rich information.

      2) In a subsequent step, we employed d-VAE to exclusively distill the raw signals of these smaller R2 neurons (distinct from the earlier experiment where d-VAE processed signals from all neurons). We then employed KF and ANN to evaluate the distilled smaller R2 neurons. Interestingly, we observed that we could not attain the same richness of information solely through the use of these smaller R2 neurons.

      3) Consequently, we put forth and tested two hypotheses: First, that larger R2 neurons introduce additional signals into the smaller R2 neurons that do not exist in the real smaller R2 neurons. Second, that larger R2 neurons aid in restoring the original appearance of impaired smaller R2 neurons. Our proposed criteria and synthetic experiments substantiate the latter scenario.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q4: “Finally, a more technical issue to note is related to the choice to learn a non-parametric prior instead of using a conventional Gaussian prior. How is this implemented? Is just a single sample taken during a forward pass? I worry this may be insufficient as this would not sample the prior well, and some other strategy such as importance sampling may be required (unless the prior is not relevant as it weakly contributed to the ELBO, in which case this choice seems not very relevant). Generally, it would be useful to see visualisations of the latent variables to see how information about behaviour is represented by the model.”

      Regarding "how to implement the prior?": Please refer to Equation 7 in the revised manuscript; we have added detailed descriptions in the revised manuscript.

      Regarding "Generally, it would be useful to see visualizations of the latent variables to see how information about behavior is represented by the model.": Note that our focus is not on latent variables but on distilled relevant signals. Nonetheless, at your request, we have added the visualization of latent variables in the revised manuscript. Please see Fig. S13 for details.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Recommendations: “A minor point: the word 'distill' in the name of the model may be a little misleading - in machine learning the term refers to the construction of smaller models with the same capabilities.

      It should be useful to add a schematic picture of the model to ease comparison with related approaches.”

      In the context of our model's functions, it operates as a distillation process, eliminating irrelevant signals and retaining the relevant ones. Although the name of our model may be a little misleading, it faithfully reflects what our model does.

      I have added a schematic picture of d-VAE in the revised manuscript. Please see Fig. S1 for details.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Reviewer #2

      Q1: “Is the apparently increased complexity of encoding vs decoding so unexpected given the entropy, sparseness, and high dimensionality of neural signals (the "encoding") compared to the smoothness and low dimensionality of typical behavioural signals (the "decoding") recorded in neuroscience experiments? This is the title of the paper so it seems to be the main result on which the authors expect readers to focus. ”

      We use the term "unexpected" due to the disparity between our findings and the prior understanding concerning neural encoding and decoding. For neural encoding, as we said in the Introduction, in previous studies, weakly-tuned neurons are considered useless, and smaller variance PCs are considered noise, but we found they encode rich behavioral information. For neural decoding, the nonlinear decoding performance of raw signals is significantly superior to linear decoding. However, after eliminating the interference of irrelevant signals, we found the linear decoding performance is comparable to nonlinear decoding. Rooted in these findings, which counter previous thought, we employ the term "unexpected" to characterize our observations.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q2: “I take issue with the premise that signals in the brain are "irrelevant" simply because they do not correlate with a fixed temporal lag with a particular behavioural feature hand-chosen by the experimenter. As an example, the presence of a reward signal in motor cortex [1] after the movement is likely to be of little use from the perspective of predicting kinematics from time-bin to time-bin using a fixed model across trials (the apparent definition of "relevant" for behaviour here), but an entire sub-field of neuroscience is dedicated to understanding the impact of these reward-related signals on future behaviour. Is there method sophisticated enough to see the behavioural "relevance" of this brief, transient, post-movement signal? This may just be an issue of semantics, and perhaps I read too much into the choice of words here. Perhaps the authors truly treat "irrelevant" and "without a fixed temporal correlation" as synonymous phrases and the issue is easily resolved with a clarifying parenthetical the first time the word "irrelevant" is used. But I remain troubled by some claims in the paper which lead me to believe that they read more deeply into the "irrelevancy" of these components.”

      In this paper, we employ terms like ‘behaviorally-relevant’ and ‘behaviorally-irrelevant’ only regarding behavioral variables of interest measured within a given task, such as arm kinematics during a motor control task. A similar definition can be found in the PSID[1].

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      [1] Sani, Omid G., et al. "Modeling behaviorally relevant neural dynamics enabled by preferential subspace identification." Nature Neuroscience 24.1 (2021): 140-149.

      Q3: “The authors claim the "irrelevant" responses underpin an unprecedented neuronal redundancy and reveal that movement behaviors are distributed in a higher-dimensional neural space than previously thought." Perhaps I just missed the logic, but I fail to see the evidence for this. The neural space is a fixed dimensionality based on the number of neurons. A more sparse and nonlinear distribution across this set of neurons may mean that linear methods such as PCA are not effective ways to approximate the dimensionality. But ultimately the behaviourally relevant signals seem quite low-dimensional in this paper even if they show some nonlinearity may help.”

      The evidence for the “useless” responses underpin an unprecedented neuronal redundancy is shown in Fig. 5a, d and Fig. S9a. Specifically, the sum of the decoding performance of smaller R2 neurons and larger R2 neurons is significantly greater than that of all neurons for relevant signals (red bar), demonstrating that movement parameters are encoded very redundantly in neuronal population. In contrast, we can not find this degree of neural redundancy in raw signals (purple bar).

      The evidence for the “useless” responses reveal that movement behaviors are distributed in a higher-dimensional neural space than previously thought is shown in the left plot (involving KF decoding) of Fig. 6c, f and Fig. S9f. Specifically, the improvement of KF using secondary signals is significantly higher than using raw signals composed of the same number of dimensions as the secondary signals. These results demonstrate that these dimensions, spanning roughly from ten to thirty, encode much information, suggesting that behavioral information exists in a higher-dimensional subspace than anticipated from raw signals.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q5: “there is an apparent logical fallacy that begins in the abstract and persists in the paper: "Surprisingly, when incorporating often-ignored neural dimensions, behavioral information can be decoded linearly as accurately as nonlinear decoding, suggesting linear readout is performed in motor cortex." Don't get me wrong: the equivalency of linear and nonlinear decoding approaches on this dataset is interesting, and useful for neuroscientists in a practical sense. However, the paper expends much effort trying to make fundamental scientific claims that do not feel very strongly supported. This reviewer fails to see what we can learn about a set of neurons in the brain which are presumed to "read out" from motor cortex. These neurons will not have access to the data analyzed here. That a linear model can be conceived by an experimenter does not imply that the brain must use a linear model. The claim may be true, and it may well be that a linear readout is implemented in the brain. Other work [2,3] has shown that linear readouts of nonlinear neural activity patterns can explain some behavioural features. The claim in this paper, however, is not given enough”

      Due to the limitations of current observational methods and our incomplete understanding of brain mechanisms, it is indeed challenging to ascertain the specific data the brain acquires to generate behavior and whether it employs a linear readout. Conventionally, the neural data recorded in the motor cortex do encode movement behaviors and can be used to analyze neural encoding and decoding. Based on these data, we found that the linear decoder KF achieves comparable performance to that of the nonlinear decoder ANN on distilled relevant signals. This finding has undergone validation across three widely used datasets, providing substantial evidence. Furthermore, we conducted experiments on synthetic data to show that this conclusion is not a by-product of our model. In the revised manuscript, we added a more detailed description of this conclusion.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q6: “Relatedly, I would like to note that the exercise of arbitrarily dividing a continuous distribution of a statistic (the "R2") based on an arbitrary threshold is a conceptually flawed exercise. The authors read too much into the fact that neurons which have a low R2 w.r.t. PDs have behavioural information w.r.t. other methods. To this reviewer, it speaks more about the irrelevance, so to speak, of the preferred direction metric than anything fundamental about the brain.”

      We chose the R2 threshold in accordance with the guidelines provided in reference [1]. It's worth mentioning that this threshold does not exert any significant influence on the overall conclusions.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      [1] Inoue, Y., Mao, H., Suway, S.B., Orellana, J. and Schwartz, A.B., 2018. Decoding arm speed during reaching. Nature communications, 9(1), p.5243.

      Q7: “I am afraid I may be missing something, as I did not understand the fano factor analysis of Figure 3. In a sense the behaviourally relevant signals must have lower FF given they are in effect tied to the temporally smooth (and consistent on average across trials) behavioural covariates. The point of the original Churchland paper was to show that producing a behaviour squelches the variance; naturally these must appear in the behaviourally relevant components. A control distribution or reference of some type would possibly help here.”

      We agree that including reference signals could provide more context. The Churchland paper said stimulus onset can lead to a reduction in neural variability. However, our experiment focuses specifically on the reaching process, and thus, we don't have comparative experiments involving different types of signals.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q8: “The authors compare the method to LFADS. While this is a reasonable benchmark as a prominent method in the field, LFADS does not attempt to solve the same problem as d-VAE. A better and much more fair comparison would be TNDM [4], an extension of LFADS which is designed to identify behaviourally relevant dimensions.”

      We have added the comparison experiments with TNDM in the revised manuscript (see Fig. 2 and Fig. S2). The details of model hyperparameters and training settings can be found in the Methods section in the revised manuscripts.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Reviewer #3

      Q1.1: “TNDM: LFADS is not the best baseline for comparison. The authors should have compared with TNDM (Hurwitz et al. 2021), which is an extension of LFADS that (unlike LFADS) actually attempts to extract behaviorally relevant factors by adding a behavior term to the loss. The code for TNDM is also available on Github. LFADS is not even supervised by behavior and does not aim to address the problem that d-VAE aims to address, so it is not the most appropriate comparison. ”

      We have added the comparison experiments with TNDM in the revised manuscript (see Fig. 2 and Fig. S2). The details of model hyperparameters and training settings can be found in the Methods section in the revised manuscripts.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q1.2: “LFADS: LFADS is a sequential autoencoder that processes sections of data (e.g. trials). No explanation is given in Methods for how the data was passed to LFADS. Was the moving averaged smoothed data passed to LFADS or the raw spiking data (at what bin size)? Was a gaussian loss used or a poisson loss? What are the trial lengths used in each dataset, from which part of trials? For dataset C that has back-to-back reaches, was data chopped into segments? How long were these segments? Were the edges of segments overlapped and averaged as in (Keshtkaran et al. 2022) to avoid noisy segment edges or not? These are all critical details that are not explained. The same details would also be needed for a TNDM comparison (comment 1.1) since it has largely the same architecture as LFADS.

      It is also critical to briefly discuss these fundamental differences between the inputs of methods in the main text. LFADS uses a segment of data whereas VAE methods just use one sample at a time. What does this imply in the results? I guess as long as VAEs outperform LFADS it is ok, but if LFADS outperforms VAEs in a given metric, could it be because it received more data as input (a whole segment)? Why was the factor dimension set to 50? I presume it was to match the latent dimension of the VAE methods, but is the LFADS factor dimension the correct match for that to make things comparable?

      I am also surprised by the results. How do the authors justify LFADS having lower neural similarity (fig 2d) than VAE methods that operate on single time steps? LFADS is not supervised by behavior, so of course I don't expect it to necessarily outperform methods on behavior decoding. But all LFADS aims to do is to reconstruct the neural data so at least in this metric it should be able to outperform VAEs that just operate on single time steps? Is it because LFADS smooths the data too much? This is important to discuss and show examples of. These are all critical nuances that need to be discussed to validate the results and interpret them.”

      Regarding “Was the moving averaged smoothed data passed to LFADS or the raw spiking data (at what bin size)? Was a gaussian loss used or a poisson loss?”: The data used by all models was applied to the same preprocessing procedure. That is, using moving averaged smoothed data with three bins, where the bin size is 100ms. For all models except PSID, we used a Poisson loss.

      Regrading “What are the trial lengths used in each dataset, from which part of trials? For dataset C that has back-to-back reaches, was data chopped into segments? How long were these segments? Were the edges of segments overlapped and averaged as in (Keshtkaran et al. 2022) to avoid noisy segment edges or not?”:

      For datasets A and B, a trial length of eighteen is set. Trials with lengths below the threshold are zero-padded, while trials exceeding the threshold are truncated to the threshold length from their starting point. In dataset A, there are several trials with lengths considerably longer than that of most trials. We found that padding all trials with zeros to reach the maximum length (32) led to poor performance. Consequently, we chose a trial length of eighteen, effectively encompassing the durations of most trials and leading to the removal of approximately 9% of samples. For dataset B (center-out), the trial lengths are relatively consistent with small variation, and the maximum length across all trials is eighteen. For dataset C, we set the trial length as ten because we observed the video of this paradigm and found that the time for completing a single trial was approximately one second. The segments are not overlapped.

      Regarding “Why was the factor dimension set to 50? I presume it was to match the latent dimension of the VAE methods, but is the LFADS factor dimension the correct match for that to make things comparable?”: We performed a grid search for latent dimensions in {10,20,50} and found 50 is the best.

      Regarding “I am also surprised by the results. How do the authors justify LFADS having lower neural similarity (fig 2d) than VAE methods that operate on single time steps? LFADS is not supervised by behavior, so of course I don't expect it to necessarily outperform methods on behavior decoding. But all LFADS aims to do is to reconstruct the neural data so at least in this metric it should be able to outperform VAEs that just operate on single time steps? Is it because LFADS smooths the data too much?”: As you pointed out, we found that LFADS tends to produce excessively smooth and consistent data, which can lead to a reduction in neural similarity.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q1.3: “PSID: PSID is linear and uses past input samples to predict the next sample in the output. Again, some setup choices are not well justified, and some details are left out in the 1-line explanation given in Methods.

      Why was a latent dimension of 6 chosen? Is this the behaviorally relevant latent dimension or the total latent dimension (for the use case here it would make sense to set all latent states to be behaviorally relevant)? Why was a horizon hyperparameter of 3 chosen? First, it is important to mention fundamental parameters such as latent dimension for each method in the main text (not just in methods) to make the results interpretable. Second, these hyperparameters should be chosen with a grid search in each dataset (within the training data, based on performance on the validation part of the training data), just as the authors do for their method (line 779). Given that PSID isn't a deep learning method, doing a thorough grid search in each fold should be quite feasible. It is important that high values for latent dimension and a wider range of other hyperparmeters are included in the search, because based on how well the residuals (x_i) for this method are shown predict behavior in Fig 2, the method seems to not have been used appropriately. I would expect ANN to improve decoding for PSID versus its KF decoding since PSID is fully linear, but I don't expect KF to be able to decode so well using the residuals of PSID if the method is used correctly to extract all behaviorally relevant information from neural data. The low neural reconstruction in Fid 2d could also partly be due to using too small of a latent dimension.

      Again, another import nuance is the input to this method and how differs with the input to VAE methods. The learned PSID model is a filter that operates on all past samples of input to predict the output in the "next" time step. To enable a fair comparison with VAE methods, the authors should make sure that the last sample "seen" by PSID is the same as then input sample seen by VAE methods. This is absolutely critical given how large the time steps are, otherwise PSID might underperform simply because it stopped receiving input 300ms earlier than the input received by VAE methods. To fix this, I think the authors can just shift the training and testing neural time series of PSID by 1 sample into the past (relative to the behavior), so that PSID's input would include the input of VAE methods. Otherwise, VAEs outperforming PSID is confounded by PSID's input not including the time step that was provided to VAE.”

      Thanks for your suggestions for letting PSID see the current neural observations. We did it per your suggestions and then performed a grid search for the hyperparameters for PSID. Specifically, we performed a grid search for the horizon hyperparameter in {2,3,4,5,6,7}. Since the relevant latent dimension should be lower than the horizon times the dimension of behavior variables (two-dimensional velocity in this paper) and increasing the dimension will reach performance saturation, we directly set the relevant latent dimensions as the maximum. The horizon number of datasets A, B, C, and synthetic datasets is 7, 6, 6 and 5, respectively.

      And thus the latent dimension of datasets A, B, and C and the synthetic dataset is 14, 12, 12 and 10, respectively.

      Our experiments show that KF can decode information from irrelevant signals obtained by PSID. Although PSID extracts the linear part of raw signals, KF can still use the linear part of the residuals for decoding. The low reconstruction performance of PSID may be because the relationship between latent variables and neural signals is linear, and the relationship between latent variables and behaviors is also linear; this is equivalent to the linear relationship between behaviors and neural signals, and linear models can only explain a small fraction of neural signals.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q1.4: “CEBRA: results for CEBRA are incomplete. Similarity to raw signals is not shown. Decoding of behaviorally irrelevant residuals for CEBRA is not shown. Per Fig. S2, CEBRA does better or similar ANN decoding in datasets A and C, is only slightly worse in Dataset B, so it is important to show the other key metrics otherwise it is unclear whether d-VAE has some tangible advantage over CEBRA in those 2 datasets or if they are similar in every metric. Finally, it would be better if the authors show the results for CEBRA on Fig. 2, just as is done for other methods because otherwise it is hard to compare all methods.”

      CEBRA is a non-generative model, this model cannot generate behaviorally-relevant signals. Therefore, we only compared the decoding performance of latent embeddings of CEBRA and signals of d-VAE.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q2: “Given the fact that d-VAE infers the latent (z) based on the population activity (x), claims about properties of the inferred behaviorally relevant signals (x_r) that attribute properties to individual neurons are confounded.

      The authors contrast their approach to population level approaches in that it infers behaviorally relevant signals for individual neurons. However, d-VAE is also a population method as it aggregates population information to infer the latent (z), from which behaviorally relevant part of the activity of each neuron (x_r) is inferred. The authors note this population level aggregation of information as a benefit of d-VAE, but only acknowledge it as a confound briefly in the context of one of their analyses (line 340): "The first is that the larger R2 neurons leak their information to the smaller R2 neurons, causing them contain too much behavioral information". They go on to dismiss this confounding possibility by showing that the inferred behaviorally relevant signal of each neuron is often most similar to its own raw signals (line 348-352) compared with all other neurons. They also provide another argument specific to that result section (i.e., residuals are not very behavior predictive), which is not general so I won't discuss it in depth here. These arguments however do not change the basic fact that d-VAE aggregates information from other neurons when extracting the behaviorally relevant activity of any given neuron, something that the authors note as a benefit of d-VAE in many instances. The fact that d-VAE aggregates population level info to give the inferred behaviorally relevant signal for each neuron confounds several key conclusions. For example, because information is aggregated across neurons, when trial to trial variability looks smoother after applying d-VAE (Fig 3i), or reveals better cosine tuning (Fig 3b), or when neurons that were not very predictive of behavior become more predictive of behavior (Fig 5), one cannot really attribute the new smoother single trial activity or the improved decoding to the same single neurons; rather these new signals/performances include information from other neurons. Unless the connections of the encoder network (z=f(x)) is zero for all other neurons, one cannot claim that the inferred rates for the neuron are truly solely associated with that neuron. I believe this a fundamental property of a population level VAE, and simply makes the architecture unsuitable for claims regarding inherent properties of single neurons. This confound is partly why the first claim in the abstract are not supported by data: observing that neurons that don't predict behavior very well would predict it much better after applying d-VAE does not prove that these neurons themselves "encode rich[er] behavioral information in complex nonlinear ways" (i.e., the first conclusion highlighted in the abstract) because information was also aggregated from other neurons. The other reason why this claim is not supported by data is the characterization of the encoding for smaller R2 neurons as "complex nonlinear", which the method is not well equipped to tease apart from linear mappings as I explain in my comment 3.”

      We acknowledge that we cannot obtain the exact single neuronal activity that does not contain any information from other neurons. However, we believe our model can extract accurate approximation signals of the ground truth relevant signals. These signals preserve the inherent properties of single neuronal activity to some extent and can be used for analysis at the single-neuron level.

      We believe d-VAE is a reasonable approach to extract effective relevant signals that preserve inherent properties of single neuronal activity for four key reasons:

      1) d-VAE is a latent variable model that adheres to the neural population doctrine. The neural population doctrine posits that information is encoded within interconnected groups of neurons, with the existence of latent variables (neural modes) responsible for generating observable neuronal activity [1, 2]. If we can perfectly obtain the true generative model from latent variables to neuronal activity, then we can generate the activity of each neuron from hidden variables without containing any information from other neurons. However, without a complete understanding of the brain’s encoding strategies (or generative model), we can only get the approximation signals of the ground truth signals.

      2) After the generative model is established, we need to infer the parameters of the generative model and the distribution of latent variables. During the inference process, inference algorithms such as variational inference or EM algorithms will be used. Generally, the obtained latent variables are also approximations of the real latent variables. When inferring the latent variables, it is inevitable to aggregation the information of the neural population, and latent variables are derived through weighted combinations of neuronal populations [3].

      This inference process is consistent with that of d-VAE (or VAE-based models).

      3) Latent variables are derived from raw neural signals and used to explain raw neural signals. Considering the unknown ground truth of latent variables and behaviorally-relevant signals, it becomes evident that the only reliable reference at the signal level is the raw signals. A crucial criterion for evaluating the reliability of latent variable models (including latent variables and generated relevant signals) is their capability to effectively explain the raw signals [3]. Consequently, we firmly maintain the belief that if the generated signals closely resemble the raw signals to the greatest extent possible, in accordance with an equivalence principle, we can claim that these obtained signals faithfully retain the inherent properties of single neurons. d-VAE explicitly constrains the generated signal to closely resemble the raw signals. These results demonstrate that d-VAE can extract effective relevant signals that preserve inherent properties of single neuronal activity.

      Based on the above reasons, we hold that generating single neuronal activities with the VAE framework is a reasonable approach. The remaining question is whether our model can obtain accurate relevant signals in the absence of ground truth. To our knowledge, in cases where the ground truth of relevant signals is unknown, there are typically two approaches to verifying the reliability of extracted signals:

      1) Conducting synthetic experiments where the ground truth is known.

      2) Validation based on expert knowledge (Three criteria were proposed in this paper). Both our extracted signals and key conclusions have been validated using these two approaches.

      Next, we will provide a detailed response to the concerns regarding our first key conclusion that smaller R2 neurons encode rich information.

      We acknowledge that larger R2 neurons play a role in aiding the reconstruction of signals in smaller R2 neurons through their neural activity. However, considering that neurons are correlated rather than independent entities, we maintain the belief that larger R2 neurons assist damaged smaller R2 neurons in restoring their original appearance. Taking image denoising as an example, when restoring noisy pixels to their original appearance, relying solely on the noisy pixels themselves is often impractical. Assistance from their correlated, clean neighboring pixels becomes necessary.

      The case we need to be cautious of is that the larger R2 neurons introduce additional signals (m) that contain substantial information to smaller R2 neurons, which they do not inherently possess. We believe this case does not hold for two reasons. Firstly, logically, adding extra signals decreases the reconstruction performance, and the information carried by these additional signals is redundant for larger R2 neurons, thus they do not introduce new information that can enhance the decoding performance of the neural population. Therefore, it seems unlikely and unnecessary for neural networks to engage in such counterproductive actions. Secondly, even if this occurs, our second criterion can effectively exclude the selection of these signals. To clarify, if we assume that x, y, and z denote the raw, relevant, and irrelevant signals of smaller R2 neurons, with x=y+z, and the extracted relevant signals become y+m, the irrelevant signals become z-m in this case. Consequently, the irrelevant signals contain a significant amount of information. It's essential to emphasize that this criterion holds significant importance in excluding undesirable signals.

      Furthermore, we conducted a synthetic experiment to show that d-VAE can indeed restore the damaged information of smaller R2 neurons with the help of larger R2 neurons, and the restored neuronal activities are more similar to ground truth compared to damaged raw signals. Please see Fig. S11a,b for details.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      [1] Saxena, S. and Cunningham, J.P., 2019. Towards the neural population doctrine. Current opinion in neurobiology, 55, pp.103-111.

      [2] Gallego, J.A., Perich, M.G., Miller, L.E. and Solla, S.A., 2017. Neural manifolds for the control of movement. Neuron, 94(5), pp.978-984.

      [3] Cunningham, J.P. and Yu, B.M., 2014. Dimensionality reduction for large-scale neural recordings. Nature neuroscience, 17(11), pp.1500-1509.

      Q3: “Given the nonlinear architecture of the VAE, claims about the linearity or nonlinearity of cortical readout are confounded and not supported by the results.

      The inference of behaviorally relevant signals from raw signals is a nonlinear operation, that is x_r=g(f(x)) is nonlinear function of x. So even when a linear KF is used to decode behavior from the inferred behaviorally relevant signals, the overall decoding from raw signals to predicted behavior (i.e., KF applied to g(f(x))) is nonlinear. Thus, the result that decoding of behavior from inferred behaviorally relevant signals (x_r) using a linear KF and a nonlinear ANN reaches similar accuracy (Fig 2), does not suggest that a "linear readout is performed in the motor cortex", as the authors claim (line 471). The authors acknowledge this confound (line 472) but fail to address it adequately. They perform a simulation analysis where the decoding gap between KF and ANN remains unchanged even when d-VAE is used to infer behaviorally relevant signals in the simulation. However, this analysis is not enough for "eliminating the doubt" regarding the confound. I'm sure the authors can also design simulations where the opposite happens and just like in the data, d-VAE can improve linear decoding to match ANN decoding. An adequate way to address this concern would be to use a fully linear version of the autoencoder where the f(.) and g(.) mappings are fully linear. They can simply replace these two networks in their model with affine mappings, redo the modeling and see if the model still helps the KF decoding accuracy reach that of the ANN decoding. In such a scenario, because the overall KF decoding from original raw signals to predicted behavior (linear d-VAE + KF) is linear, then they could move toward the claim that the readout is linear. Even though such a conclusion would still be impaired by the nonlinear reference (d-VAE + ANN decoding) because the achieved nonlinear decoding performance could always be limited by network design and fitting issues. Overall, the third conclusion highlighted in the abstract is a very difficult claim to prove and is unfortunately not supported by the results.”

      We aim to explore the readout mechanism of behaviorally-relevant signals, rather than raw signals. Theoretically, the process of removing irrelevant signals should not be considered part of the inherent decoding mechanisms of the relevant signals. Assuming that the relevant signals we extracted are accurate, the conclusion of linear readout is established. On the synthetic data where the ground truth is known, our distilled signals show a significant improvement in neural similarity to the ground truth when compared to raw signals (refer to Fig. S2l). This observation demonstrates that our distilled signals are accurate approximations of the ground truth. Furthermore, on the three widely-used real datasets, our distilled signals meet the stringent criteria we have proposed (see Fig. 2), also providing strong evidence for their accuracy.

      Regarding the assertion that we could create simulations in which d-VAE can make signals that are inherently nonlinearly decodable into linearly decodable ones: In reality, we cannot achieve this, as the second criterion can rule out the selection of such signals. Specifically,z=x+y=n^2+y, where z, x, y, and n denote raw signals, relevant signals, irrelevant signals and latent variables. If the relevant signals obtained by d-VAE are n, then these signals can be linear decoded accurately. However, the corresponding irrelevant signals are n^2-n+z; thus, irrelevant signals will have much information, and these extracted relevant signals will not be selected. Furthermore, our synthetic experiments offer additional evidence supporting the conclusion that d-VAE does not make inherently nonlinearly decodable signals become linearly decodable ones. As depicted in Fig. S11c, there exists a significant performance gap between KF and ANN when decoding the ground truth signals of smaller R2 neurons. KF exhibits notably low performance, leaving substantial room for compensation by d-VAE. However, following processing by d-VAE, KF's performance of distilled signals fails to surpass its already low ground truth performance and remains significantly inferior to ANN's performance. These results collectively confirm that our approach does not convert signals that are inherently nonlinearly decodable into linearly decodable ones, and the conclusion of linear readout is not a by-product by d-VAE.

      Regarding the suggestion of using linear d-VAE + KF, as discussed in the Discussion section, removing the irrelevant signals requires a nonlinear operation, and linear d-VAE can not effectively separate relevant and irrelevant signals.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q4: “The authors interpret several results as indications that "behavioral information is distributed in a higher-dimensional subspace than expected from raw signals", which is the second main conclusion highlighted in the abstract. However, several of these arguments do not convincingly support that conclusion.

      4.1) The authors observe that behaviorally relevant signals for neurons with small principal components (referred to as secondary) have worse decoding with KF but better decoding with ANN (Fig. 6b,e), which also outperforms ANN decoding from raw signals. This observation is taken to suggest that these secondary behaviorally relevant signals encode behavior information in highly nonlinear ways and in a higher dimensions neural space than expected (lines 424 and 428). These conclusions however are confounded by the fact that A) d-VAE uses nonlinear encoding, so one cannot conclude from ANN outperforming KF that behavior is encoded nonlinearly in the motor cortex (see comment 3 above), and B) d-VAE aggregates information across the population so one cannot conclude that these secondary neurons themselves had as much behavior information (see comment 2 above).

      4.2) The authors observe that the addition of the inferred behaviorally relevant signals for neurons with small principal components (referred to as secondary) improves the decoding of KF more than it improves the decoding of ANN (red curves in Fig 6c,f). This again is interpreted similarly as in 4.1, and is confounded for similar reasons (line 439): "These results demonstrate that irrelevant signals conceal the smaller variance PC signals, making their encoded information difficult to be linearly decoded, suggesting that behavioral information exists in a higher-dimensional subspace than anticipated from raw signals". This is confounded by because of the two reasons explained in 4.1. To conclude nonlinear encoding based on the difference in KF and ANN decoding, the authors would need to make the encoding/decoding in their VAE linear to have a fully linear decoder on one hand (with linear d-VAE + KF) and a nonlinear decoder on the other hand (with linear d-VAE + ANN), as explained in comment 3.

      4.3) From S Fig 8, where the authors compare cumulative variance of PCs for raw and inferred behaviorally relevant signals, the authors conclude that (line 554): "behaviorally-irrelevant signals can cause an overestimation of the neural dimensionality of behaviorally-relevant responses (Supplementary Fig. S8)." However, this analysis does not really say anything about overestimation of "behaviorally relevant" neural dimensionality since the comparison is done with the dimensionality of "raw" signals. The next sentence is ok though: "These findings highlight the need to filter out relevant signals when estimating the neural dimensionality.", because they use the phrase "neural dimensionality" not "neural dimensionality of behaviorally-relevant responses".”

      Questions 4.1 and 4.2 are a combination of Q2 and Q3. Please refer to our responses to Q2 and Q3.

      Regarding question 4.3 about “behaviorally-irrelevant signals can cause an overestimation of the neural dimensionality of behaviorally-relevant responses”: Previous studies usually used raw signals to estimate the neural dimensionality of specific behaviors. We mean that using raw signals, which include many irrelevant signals, will cause an overestimation of the neural dimensionality. We have modified this sentence in the revised manuscripts.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q5: “Imprecise use of language in many places leads to inaccurate statements. I will list some of these statements”

      5.1) In the abstract: "One solution is to accurately separate behaviorally-relevant and irrelevant signals, but this approach remains elusive due to the unknown ground truth of behaviorally-relevant signals". This statement is not accurate because it implies no prior work does this. The authors should make their statement more specific and also refer to some goal that existing linear (e.g., PSID) and nonlinear (e.g., TNDM) methods for extracting behaviorally relevant signals fail to achieve.

      5.2) In the abstract: "we found neural responses previously considered useless encode rich behavioral information" => what does "useless" mean operationally? Low behavior tuning? More precise use of language would be better.

      5.3) "... recent studies (Glaser 58 et al., 2020; Willsey et al., 2022) demonstrate nonlinear readout outperforms linear readout." => do these studies show that nonlinear "readout" outperforms linear "readout", or just that nonlinear models outperform linear models?

      5.4) Line 144: "The first criterion is that the decoding performance of the behaviorally-relevant signals (red bar, Fig.1) should surpass that of raw signals (the red dotted line, Fig.1).". Do the authors mean linear decoding here or decoding in general? If the latter, how can something extracted from neural surpass decoding of neural data, when the extraction itself can be thought of as part of decoding? The operational definition for this "decoding performance" should be clarified.

      5.5) Line 311: "we found that the dimensionality of primary subspace of raw signals (26, 64, and 45 for datasets A, B, and C) is significantly higher than that of behaviorally-relevant signals (7, 13, and 9), indicating that behaviorally-irrelevant signals lead to an overestimation of the neural dimensionality of behaviorally-relevant signals." => here the dimensionality of the total PC space (i.e., primary subspace of raw signals) is being compared with that of inferred behaviorally-relevant signals, so the former being higher does not indicate that neural dimensionality of behaviorally-relevant signals was overestimated. The former is simply not behavioral so this conclusion is not accurate.

      5.6) Section "Distilled behaviorally-relevant signals uncover that smaller R2 neurons encode rich behavioral information in complex nonlinear ways". Based on what kind of R2 are the neurons grouped? Behavior decoding R2 from raw signals? Using what mapping? Using KF? If KF is used, the result that small R2 neurons benefit a lot from d-VAE could be somewhat expected, given the nonlinearity of d-VAE: because only ANN would have the capacity to unwrap the nonlinear encoding of d-VAE as needed. If decoding performance that is used to group neurons is based on data, regression to the mean could also partially explain the result: the neurons with worst raw decoding are most likely to benefit from a change in decoder, than neurons that already had good decoding. In any case, the R2 used to partition and sort neurons should be more clearly stated and reminded throughout the text and I Fig 3.

      5.7) Line 346 "...it is impossible for our model to add the activity of larger R2 neurons to that of smaller R2 neurons" => Is it really impossible? The optimization can definitely add small-scale copies of behaviorally relevant information to all neurons with minimal increase in the overall optimization loss, so this statement seems inaccurate.

      5.8) Line 490: "we found that linear decoders can achieve comparable performance to that of nonlinear decoders, providing compelling evidence for the presence of linear readout in the motor cortex." => inaccurate because no d-VAE decoding is really linear, as explained in comment 3 above.

      5.9) Line 578: ". However, our results challenge this idea by showing that signals composed of smaller variance PCs nonlinearly encode a significant amount of behavioral information." => inaccurate as results are confounded by nonlinearity of d-VAE as explained in comment 3 above.

      5.10) Line 592: "By filtering out behaviorally-irrelevant signals, our study found that accurate decoding performance can be achieved through linear readout, suggesting that the motor cortex may perform linear readout to generate movement behaviors." => inaccurate because it us confounded by the nonlinearity of d-VAE as explained in comment 3 above.”

      Regarding “5.1) In the abstract: "One solution is to accurately separate behaviorally-relevant and irrelevant signals, but this approach remains elusive due to the unknown ground truth of behaviorally-relevant signals". This statement is not accurate because it implies no prior work does this. The authors should make their statement more specific and also refer to some goal that existing linear (e.g., PSID) and nonlinear (e.g., TNDM) methods for extracting behaviorally relevant signals fail to achieve”:

      We believe our statement is accurate. Our primary objective is to extract accurate behaviorally-relevant signals that closely approximate the ground truth relevant signals. To achieve this, we strike a balance between the reconstruction and decoding performance of the generated signals, aiming to effectively capture the relevant signals. This crucial aspect of our approach sets it apart from other methods. In contrast, other methods tend to emphasize the extraction of valuable latent neural dynamics. We have provided elaboration on the distinctions between d-VAE and other approaches in the Introduction and Discussion sections.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Regarding “5.2) In the abstract: "we found neural responses previously considered useless encode rich behavioral information" => what does "useless" mean operationally? Low behavior tuning? More precise use of language would be better.”:

      In the analysis of neural signals, smaller variance PC signals are typically seen as noise and are often discarded. Similarly, smaller R2 neurons are commonly thought to be dominated by noise and are not further analyzed. Given these considerations, we believe that the term "considered useless" is appropriate in this context. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Regarding “5.3) "... recent studies (Glaser 58 et al., 2020; Willsey et al., 2022) demonstrate nonlinear readout outperforms linear readout." => do these studies show that nonlinear "readout" outperforms linear "readout", or just that nonlinear models outperform linear models?”:

      In this paper, we consider the two statements to be equivalent. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Regarding “5.4) Line 144: "The first criterion is that the decoding performance of the behaviorally-relevant signals (red bar, Fig.1) should surpass that of raw signals (the red dotted line, Fig.1).". Do the authors mean linear decoding here or decoding in general? If the latter, how can something extracted from neural surpass decoding of neural data, when the extraction itself can be thought of as part of decoding? The operational definition for this "decoding performance" should be clarified.”:

      We mean the latter, as we said in the section “Framework for defining, extracting, and separating behaviorally-relevant signals”, since raw signals contain too many behaviorally-irrelevant signals, deep neural networks are more prone to overfit raw signals than relevant signals. Therefore the decoding performance of relevant signals should surpass that of raw signals. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Regarding “5.5) Line 311: "we found that the dimensionality of primary subspace of raw signals (26, 64, and 45 for datasets A, B, and C) is significantly higher than that of behaviorally-relevant signals (7, 13, and 9), indicating that behaviorally-irrelevant signals lead to an overestimation of the neural dimensionality of behaviorally-relevant signals." => here the dimensionality of the total PC space (i.e., primary subspace of raw signals) is being compared with that of inferred behaviorally-relevant signals, so the former being higher does not indicate that neural dimensionality of behaviorally-relevant signals was overestimated. The former is simply not behavioral so this conclusion is not accurate.”: In practice, researchers usually used raw signals to estimate the neural dimensionality. We mean that using raw signals to do this would overestimate the neural dimensionality. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Regarding “5.6) Section "Distilled behaviorally-relevant signals uncover that smaller R2 neurons encode rich behavioral information in complex nonlinear ways". Based on what kind of R2 are the neurons grouped? Behavior decoding R2 from raw signals? Using what mapping? Using KF? If KF is used, the result that small R2 neurons benefit a lot from d-VAE could be somewhat expected, given the nonlinearity of d-VAE: because only ANN would have the capacity to unwrap the nonlinear encoding of d-VAE as needed. If decoding performance that is used to group neurons is based on data, regression to the mean could also partially explain the result: the neurons with worst raw decoding are most likely to benefit from a change in decoder, than neurons that already had good decoding. In any case, the R2 used to partition and sort neurons should be more clearly stated and reminded throughout the text and I Fig 3.”:

      When employing R2 to characterize neurons, it indicates the extent to which neuronal activity is explained by the linear encoding model [1-3]. Smaller R2 neurons have a lower capacity for linearly tuning (encoding) behaviors, while larger R2 neurons have a higher capacity for linearly tuning (encoding) behaviors. Specifically, the approach involves first establishing an encoding relationship from velocity to neural signal using a linear model, i.e., y=f(x), where f represents a linear regression model, x denotes velocity, and y denotes the neural signal. Subsequently, R2 is utilized to quantify the effectiveness of the linear encoding model in explaining neural activity. We have provided a comprehensive explanation in the revised manuscript. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      [1] Collinger, J.L., Wodlinger, B., Downey, J.E., Wang, W., Tyler-Kabara, E.C., Weber, D.J., McMorland, A.J., Velliste, M., Boninger, M.L. and Schwartz, A.B., 2013. High-performance neuroprosthetic control by an individual with tetraplegia. The Lancet, 381(9866), pp.557-564.

      [2] Wodlinger, B., et al. "Ten-dimensional anthropomorphic arm control in a human brain− machine interface: difficulties, solutions, and limitations." Journal of neural engineering 12.1 (2014): 016011.

      [3] Inoue, Y., Mao, H., Suway, S.B., Orellana, J. and Schwartz, A.B., 2018. Decoding arm speed during reaching. Nature communications, 9(1), p.5243.

      Regarding Questions 5.7, 5.8, 5.9, and 5.10:

      We believe our conclusions are solid. The reasons can be found in our replies in Q2 and Q3. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q6: “Imprecise use of language also sometimes is not inaccurate but just makes the text hard to follow.

      6.1) Line 41: "about neural encoding and decoding mechanisms" => what is the definition of encoding/decoding and how do these differ? The definitions given much later in line 77-79 is also not clear.

      6.2) Line 323: remind the reader about what R2 is being discussed, e.g., R2 of decoding behavior using KF. It is critical to know if linear or nonlinear decoding is being discussed.

      6.3) Line 488: "we found that neural responses previously considered trivial encode rich behavioral information in complex nonlinear ways" => "trivial" in what sense? These phrases would benefit from more precision, for example: "neurons that may seem to have little or no behavior information encoded". The same imprecise word ("trivial") is also used in many other places, for example in the caption of Fig S9.

      6.4) Line 611: "The same should be true for the brain." => Too strong of a statement for an unsupported claim suggesting the brain does something along the lines of nonlin VAE + linear readout.

      6.5) In Fig 1, legend: what is the operational definition of "generating performance"? Generating what? Neural reconstruction?”

      Regarding “6.1) Line 41: "about neural encoding and decoding mechanisms" => what is the definition of encoding/decoding and how do these differ? The definitions given much later in line 77-79 is also not clear.”:

      We would like to provide a detailed explanation of neural encoding and decoding. Neural encoding means how neuronal activity encodes the behaviors, that is, y=f(x), where y denotes neural activity and, x denotes behaviors, f is the encoding model. Neural decoding means how the brain decodes behaviors from neural activity, that is, x=g(y), where g is the decoding model. For further elaboration, please refer to [1]. We have included references that discuss the concepts of encoding and decoding in the revised manuscript. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      [1] Kriegeskorte, Nikolaus, and Pamela K. Douglas. "Interpreting encoding and decoding models." Current opinion in neurobiology 55 (2019): 167-179.

      Regarding “6.2) Line 323: remind the reader about what R2 is being discussed, e.g., R2 of decoding behavior using KF. It is critical to know if linear or nonlinear decoding is being discussed.”:

      This question is the same as Q5.6. Please refer to the response to Q5.6. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Regarding “6.3) Line 488: "we found that neural responses previously considered trivial encode rich behavioral information in complex nonlinear ways" => "trivial" in what sense? These phrases would benefit from more precision, for example: "neurons that may seem to have little or no behavior information encoded". The same imprecise word ("trivial") is also used in many other places, for example in the caption of Fig S9.”:

      We have revised this statement in the revised manuscript. Thanks for your recommendation.

      Regarding “6.4) Line 611: "The same should be true for the brain." => Too strong of a statement for an unsupported claim suggesting the brain does something along the lines of nonlin VAE + linear readout.”

      We mean that removing the interference of irrelevant signals and decoding the relevant signals should logically be two stages. We have revised this statement in the revised manuscript. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Regarding “6.5) In Fig 1, legend: what is the operational definition of "generating performance"? Generating what? Neural reconstruction?””:

      We have replaced “generating performance” with “reconstruction performance” in the revised manuscript. Thanks for your recommendation.

      Q7: “In the analysis presented starting in line 449, the authors compare improvement gained for decoding various speed ranges by adding secondary (small PC) neurons to the KF decoder (Fig S11). Why is this done using the KF decoder, when earlier results suggest an ANN decoder is needed for accurate decoding from these small PC neurons? It makes sense to use the more accurate nonlinear ANN decoder to support the fundamental claim made here, that smaller variance PCs are involved in regulating precise control”

      Because when the secondary signal is superimposed on the primary signal, the enhancement in KF performance is substantial. We wanted to explore in which aspect of the behavior the KF performance improvement is mainly reflected. In comparison, the improvement of ANN by the secondary signal is very small, rendering the exploration of the aforementioned questions inconsequential. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q8: “A key limitation of the VAE architecture is that it doesn't aggregate information over multiple time samples. This may be why the authors decided to use a very large bin size of 100ms and beyond that smooth the data with a moving average. This limitation should be clearly stated somewhere in contrast with methods that can aggregate information over time (e.g., TNDM, LFADS, PSID) ”

      We have added this limitation in the Discussion in the revised manuscript. Thanks for your recommendation.

      Q9: “Fig 5c and parts of the text explore the decoding when some neurons are dropped. These results should come with a reminder that dropping neurons from behaviorally relevant signals is not technically possible since the extraction of behaviorally relevant signals with d-VAE is a population level aggregation that requires the raw signal from all neurons as an input. This is also important to remind in some places in the text for example:

      • Line 498: "...when one of the neurons is destroyed."

      • Line 572: "In contrast, our results show that decoders maintain high performance on distilled signals even when many neurons drop out."”

      We want to explore the robustness of real relevant signals in the face of neuron drop-out. The signals our model extracted are an approximation of the ground truth relevant signals and thus serve as a substitute for ground truth to study this problem. Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q10: “Besides the confounded conclusions regarding the readout being linear (see comment 3 and items related to it in comment 5), the authors also don't adequately discuss prior works that suggest nonlinearity helps decoding of behavior from the motor cortex. Around line 594, a few works are discussed as support for the idea of a linear readout. This should be accompanied by a discussion of works that support a nonlinear encoding of behavior in the motor cortex, for example (Naufel et al. 2019; Glaser et al. 2020), some of which the authors cite elsewhere but don't discuss here.”

      We have added this discussion in the revised manuscript. Thanks for your recommendation.

      Q11: “Selection of hyperparameters is not clearly explained. Starting line 791, the authors give some explanation for one hyperparameter, but not others. How are the other hyperparameters determined? What is the search space for the grid search of each hyperparameter? Importantly, if hyperparameters are determined only based on the training data of each fold, why is only one value given for the hyperparameter selected in each dataset (line 814)? Did all 5 folds for each dataset happen to select exactly the same hyperparameter based on their 5 different training/validation data splits? That seems unlikely.”

      We perform a grid search in {0.001, 0.01,0.1,1} for hyperparameter beta. And we found that 0.001 is the best for all datasets. As for the model parameters, such as hidden neuron numbers, this model capacity has reached saturation decoding performance and does not influence the results.

      Regarding “Importantly, if hyperparameters are determined only based on the training data of each fold, why is only one value given for the hyperparameter selected in each dataset (line 814)? Did all 5 folds for each dataset happen to select exactly the same hyperparameter based on their 5 different training/validation data splits”: We selected the hyperparameter based on the average performance of 5 folds data on validation sets. The selected value denotes the one that yields the highest average performance across the 5 folds data.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q12: “d-VAE itself should also be explained more clearly in the main text. Currently, only the high-level idea of the objective is explained. The explanation should be more precise and include the idea of encoding to latent state, explain the relation to pip-VAE, explain inputs and outputs, linearity/nonlinearity of various mappings, etc. Also see comment 1 above, where I suggest adding more details about other methods in the main text.”

      Our primary objective is to delve into the encoding and decoding mechanisms using the separated relevant signals. Therefore, providing an excessive amount of model details could potentially distract from the main focus of the paper. In response to your suggestion, we have included a visual representation of d-VAE's structure, input, and output (see Fig. S1) in the revised manuscript, which offers a comprehensive and intuitive overview. Additionally, we have expanded on the details of d-VAE and other methods in the Methods section.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

      Q13: “In Fig 1f and g, shouldn't the performance plots be swapped? The current plots seem counterintuitive. If there is bias toward decoding (panel g), why is the irrelevant residual so good at decoding?”

      The placement of the performance plots in Fig. 1f and 1g is accurate. When the model exhibits a bias toward decoding, it prioritizes extracting the most relevant features (latent variables) for decoding purposes. As a consequence, the model predominantly generates signals that are closely associated with these extracted features. This selective signal extraction and generation process may result in the exclusion of other potentially useful information, which will be left in the residuals. To illustrate this concept, consider the example of face recognition: if a model can accurately identify an individual using only the person's eyes (assuming these are the most useful features), other valuable information, such as details of the nose or mouth, will be left in the residuals, which could also be used to identify the individual.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback.

    1. Author Response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      We carefully read through the second-round reviews and the additional reviews. To us, the review process is somewhat unusual and very much dominated by referee 2, who aggressively insists that we mixed up the trigeminal nucleus and inferior olive and that as a consequence our results are meaningless. We think the stance of referee 2 and the focus on one single issue (the alleged mix-up of trigeminal nucleus and inferior olive) is somewhat unfortunate, leaves out much of our findings and we debated at length on how to deal with further revisions. In the end, we decided to again give priority to addressing the criticism of referees 2, because it is hard to go on with a heavily attacked paper without resolving the matter at stake. The following is a summary of, what we did:

      Additional experimental work:

      (1) We checked if the peripherin-antibody indeed reliably identifies climbing fibers.

      To this end, we sectioned the elephant cerebellum and stained sections with the peripherin-antibody. We find: (i) the cerebellar white matter is strongly reactive for peripherin-antibodies, (ii) cerebellar peripherin-antibody staining of has an axonal appearance. (iii) Cerebellar Purkinje cell somata appear to be ensheated by peripherin-antibody staining. (iv) We observed that the peripherin-antibody reactivity gradually decreases from Purkinje cell somata to the pia in the cerebellar molecular layer. This work is shown in our revised Figure 2. All these four features align with the distribution of climbing fibers (which arrive through the white matter, are axons, ensheat Purkinje cell somata, and innervate Purkinje cell proximally not reaching the pia). In line with previous work, which showed similar cerebellar staining patterns in several species (Errante et al. 1998), we conclude that elephant climbing fibers are strongly reactive for peripherin-antibodies.

      (2) We delineated the elephant olivo-cerebellar tract.

      The strong peripherin-antibody reactivity of elephant climbing fibers enabled us to delineate the elephant olivo-cerebellar tract. We find the elephant olivo-cerebellar tract is a strongly peripherin-antibody reactive, well-delineated fiber tract several millimeters wide and about a centimeter in height. The unstained olivo-cerebellar tract has a greyish appearance. In the anterior regions of the olivo-cerebellar tract, we find that peripherin-antibody reactive fibers run in the dorsolateral brainstem and approach the cerebellar peduncle, where the tract gradually diminishes in size, presumably because climbing fibers discharge into the peduncle. Indeed, peripherin-antibody reactive fibers can be seen entering the cerebellar peduncle. Towards the posterior end of the peduncle, the olivo-cerebellar disappears (in the dorsal brainstem directly below the peduncle. We note that the olivo-cerebellar tract was referred to as the spinal trigeminal tract by Maseko et al. 2013. We think the tract in question cannot be the spinal trigeminal tract for two reasons: (i) This tract is the sole brainstem source of peripherin-positive climbing fibers entering the peduncle/ the cerebellum; this is the defining characteristic of the olivo-cerebellar tract. (ii) The tract in question is much smaller than the trigeminal nerve, disappears posterior to where the trigeminal nerve enters the brainstem (see below), and has no continuity with the trigeminal nerve; the continuity with the trigeminal nerve is the defining characteristic of the spinal trigeminal tract, however.

      The anterior regions of the elephant olivo-cerebellar tract are similar to the anterior regions of olivo-cerebellar tract of other mammals in its dorsolateral position and the relation to the cerebellar peduncle. In its more posterior parts, the elephant olivo-cerebellar tract continues for a long distance (~1.5 cm) in roughly the same dorsolateral position and enters the serrated nucleus that we previously identified as the elephant inferior olive. The more posterior parts of the elephant olivo-cerebellar tract therefore differ from the more posterior parts of the olivo-cerebellar tract of other mammals, which follows a ventromedial trajectory towards a ventromedially situated inferior olive. The implication of our delineation of the elephant olivo-cerebellar tract is that we correctly identified the elephant inferior olive.

      (3) An in-depth analysis of peripherin-antibody reactivity also indicates that the trigeminal nucleus receives no climbing fiber input.

      We also studied the peripherin-antibody reactivity in and around the trigeminal nucleus. We had also noted in the previous submission that the trigeminal nucleus is weakly positive for peripherin, but that the staining pattern is uniform and not the type of axon bundle pattern that is seen in the inferior olive of other mammals. To us, this observation already argued against the presence of climbing fibers in the trigeminal nucleus. We also noted that the myelin stripes of the trigeminal nucleus were peripherin-antibody-negative. In the context of our olivo-cerebellar tract tracing we now also scrutinized the surroundings of the trigeminal nucleus for peripherin-antibody reactivity. We find that the ventral brainstem surrounding the trigeminal nucleus is devoid of peripherin-antibody reactivity. Accordingly, no climbing fibers, (which we have shown to be strongly peripherin-antibody-positive, see our point 1) arrive at the trigeminal nucleus. The absence of climbing fiber input indicates that previous work that identified the (trigeminal) nucleus as the inferior olive (Maseko et al 2013) is unlikely to be correct.

      (4) We characterized the entry of the trigeminal nerve into the elephant brain.

      To better understand how trigeminal information enters the elephant’s brain, we characterized the entry of the trigeminal nerve. This analysis indicated to us that the trigeminal nerve is not continuous with the olivo-cerebellar tract (the spinal trigeminal tract of Maseko et al. 2013) as previously claimed by Maseko et al. 2013. We show some of this evidence in Referee-Figure 1 below. The reason we think the trigeminal nerve is discontinuous with the olivo-cerebellar tract is the size discrepancy between the two structures. We first show this for the tracing data of Maseko et al. 2013. In the Maseko et al. 2013 data the trigeminal nerve (Referee-Figure 1A, their plate Y) has 3-4 times the diameter of the olivocerebellar tract (the alleged spinal trigeminal tract, Referee-Figure 1B, their plate Z). Note that most if not all trigeminal fibers are thought to continue from the nerve into the trigeminal tract (see our rat data below). We plotted the diameter of the trigeminal nerve and diameter of the olivo-cerebellar (the spinal trigeminal tract according to Maseko et al. 2013) from the Maseko et al. 2013 data (Referee-Figure 1C) and we found that the olivocerebellar tract has a fairly consistent diameter (46 ± 9 mm2, mean ± SD). Statistical considerations and anatomical evidence suggest that the tracing of the trigeminal nerve into the olivo-cerebellar (the spinal trigeminal tract according to Maseko et al. 2013) is almost certainly wrong. The most anterior point of the alleged spinal trigeminal tract has a diameter of 51 mm2 which is more than 15 standard deviations different from the most posterior diameter (194 mm2) of the trigeminal tract. For this assignment to be correct three-quarters of trigeminal nerve fibers would have to spontaneously disappear, something that does not happen in the brain. We also made similar observations in the African elephant Bibi, where the trigeminal nerve (Referee-Figure 1D) is much larger in diameter than the olivocerebellar tract (Referee-Figure 1E). We could also show that the olivocerebellar tract disappears into the peduncle posterior to where the trigeminal nerve enters (Referee-Figure 1F). Our data are very similar to Maseko et al. indicating that their outlining of structures was done correctly. What appears to have been oversimplified, is the assignment of structures as continuous. We also quantified the diameter of the trigeminal nerve and the spinal trigeminal tract in rats (from the Paxinos & Watson atlas; Referee-Figure 1D); as expected we found the trigeminal nerve and spinal trigeminal tract diameters are essentially continuous.

      In our hands, the trigeminal nerve does not continue into a well-defined tract that could be traced after its entry. In this regard, it differs both from the olivo-cerebellar tract of the elephant or the spinal trigeminal tract of the rodent, both of which are well delineated. We think the absence of a well-delineated spinal trigeminal tract in elephants might have contributed to the putative tracing error highlighted in our Referee-Figure 1A-C.

      We conclude that a size mismatch indicates trigeminal fibers do not run in the olivo-cerebellar tract (the spinal trigeminal tract according to Maseko et al. 2013).

      Author response image 1.

      The trigeminal nerve is discontinuous with the olivo-cerebellar tract (the spinal trigeminal tract according to Maseko et al. 2013). A, Trigeminal nerve (orange) in the brain of African elephant LAX as delineated by Maseko et al. 2013 (coronal section; their plate Y). B, Most anterior appearance of the spinal trigeminal tract of Maseko et al. 2013 (blue; coronal section; their plate Z). Note the much smaller diameter of the spinal trigeminal tract compared to the trigeminal nerve shown in C, which argues against the continuity of the two structures. Indeed, our peripherin-antibody staining showed that the spinal trigeminal tract of Maseko corresponds to the olivo-cerebellar tract and is discontinuous with the trigeminal nerve. C, Plot of the trigeminal nerve and olivo-cerebellar tracts (the spinal trigeminal tract according to Maseko et al. 2013) diameter along the anterior-posterior axis. The trigeminal nerve is much larger in diameter than the olivocerebellar tract (the spinal trigeminal tract according to Maseko et al. 2013). C, D measurements, for which sections are shown in panels C and D respectively. The olivocerebellar tract (the spinal trigeminal tract according to Maseko et al. 2013) has a consistent diameter; data replotted from Maseko et al. 2013. At mm 25 the inferior olive appears. D, Trigeminal nerve entry in the brain of African elephant Bibi; our data, coronal section, the trigeminal nerve is outlined in orange, note the large diameter. E, Most anterior appearance of the olivo-cerebellar tract in the brain of African elephant Bibi; our data, coronal section, approximately 3 mm posterior to the section shown in A, the olivocerebellar tract is outlined in blue. Note the smaller diameter of the olivo-cerebellar tract compared to the trigeminal nerve, which argues against the continuity of the two structures. F, Plot of the trigeminal nerve and olivo-cerebellar tract diameter along the anterior-posterior axis. The nerve and olivo-cerebellar tract are discontinuous and the trigeminal nerve is much larger in diameter than the olivocerebellar tract (the spinal trigeminal tract according to Maseko et al. 2013); our data. D, E measurements, for which sections are shown in panels D and E respectively. At mm 27 the inferior olive appears. G, In the rat the trigeminal nerve is continuous in size with the spinal trigeminal tract. Data replotted from Paxinos and Watson.

      Reviewer 2 (Public Review):

      As indicated in my previous review of this manuscript (see above), it is my opinion that the authors have misidentified, and indeed switched, the inferior olivary nuclear complex (IO) and the trigeminal nuclear complex (Vsens). It is this specific point only that I will address in this second review, as this is the crucial aspect of this paper - if the identification of these nuclear complexes in the elephant brainstem by the authors is incorrect, the remainder of the paper does not have any scientific validity.

      Comment: We agree with the referee that it is most important to sort out, the inferior olivary nuclear complex (IO) and the trigeminal nuclear complex, respectively.Change: We did additional experimental work to resolve this matter as detailed at the beginning of our response. Specifically, we ascertained that elephant climbing fibers are strongly peripherin-positive. Based on elephant climbing fiber peripherin-reactivity we delineated the elephant olivo-cerebellar tract. We find that the olivo-cerebellar connects to the structure we refer to as inferior olive to the cerebellum (the referee refers to this structure as the trigeminal nuclear complex). We also found that the trigeminal nucleus (the structure the referee refers to as inferior olive) appears to receive no climbing fibers. We provide indications that the tracing of the trigeminal nerve into the olivo-cerebellar tract by Maseko et al. 2023 was erroneous (Author response image 1). These novel findings support our ideas but are very difficult to reconcile with the referee’s partitioning scheme.

      The authors, in their response to my initial review, claim that I "bend" the comparative evidence against them. They further claim that as all other mammalian species exhibit a "serrated" appearance of the inferior olive, and as the elephant does not exhibit this appearance, that what was previously identified as the inferior olive is actually the trigeminal nucleus and vice versa. 

      For convenience, I will refer to IOM and VsensM as the identification of these structures according to Maseko et al (2013) and other authors and will use IOR and VsensR to refer to the identification forwarded in the study under review. <br /> The IOM/VsensR certainly does not have a serrated appearance in elephants. Indeed, from the plates supplied by the authors in response (Referee Fig. 2), the cytochrome oxidase image supplied and the image from Maseko et al (2013) shows a very similar appearance. There is no doubt that the authors are identifying structures that closely correspond to those provided by Maseko et al (2013). It is solely a contrast in what these nuclear complexes are called and the functional sequelae of the identification of these complexes (are they related to the trunk sensation or movement controlled by the cerebellum?) that is under debate.

      Elephants are part of the Afrotheria, thus the most relevant comparative data to resolve this issue will be the identification of these nuclei in other Afrotherian species. Below I provide images of these nuclear complexes, labelled in the standard nomenclature, across several Afrotherian species. 

      (A) Lesser hedgehog tenrec (Echinops telfairi) 

      Tenrecs brains are the most intensively studied of the Afrotherian brains, these extensive neuroanatomical studies undertaken primarily by Heinz Künzle. Below I append images (coronal sections stained with cresol violet) of the IO and Vsens (labelled in the standard mammalian manner) in the lesser hedgehog tenrec. It should be clear that the inferior olive is located in the ventral midline of the rostral medulla oblongata (just like the rat) and that this nucleus is not distinctly serrated. The Vsens is located in the lateral aspect of the medulla skirted laterally by the spinal trigeminal tract (Sp5). These images and the labels indicating structures correlate precisely with that provide by Künzle (1997, 10.1016, see his Figure 1K,L. Thus, in the first case of a related species, there is no serrated appearance of the inferior olive, the location of the inferior olive is confirmed through connectivity with the superior colliculus (a standard connection in mammals) by Künzle (1997), and the location of Vsens is what is considered to be typical for mammals. This is in agreement with the authors, as they propose that ONLY the elephants show the variations they report. 

      (B) Giant otter shrew (Potomogale velox) 

      The otter shrews are close relatives of the Tenrecs. Below I append images of cresyl violet (left column) and myelin (right column) stained coronal sections through the brainstem with the IO, Vsens and Sp5 labelled as per standard mammalian anatomy. Here we see hints of the serration of the IO as defined by the authors, but we also see many myelin stripes across the IO. Vsens is located laterally and skirted by the Sp5. This is in agreement with the authors, as they propose that ONLY the elephants show the variations they report.

      (C) Four-toed sengi (Petrodromus tetradactylus) 

      The sengis are close relatives of the Tenrecs and otter shrews, these three groups being part of the Afroinsectiphilia, a distinct branch of the Afrotheria. Below I append images of cresyl violet (left column) and myelin (right column) stained coronal sections through the brainstem with the IO, Vsens and Sp5 labelled as per standard mammalian anatomy. Here we see vague hints of the serration of the IO (as defined by the authors), and we also see many myelin stripes across the IO. Vsens is located laterally and skirted by the Sp5. This is in agreement with the authors, as they propose that ONLY the elephants show the variations they report. 

      (D) Rock hyrax (Procavia capensis) 

      The hyraxes, along with the sirens and elephants form the Paenungulata branch of the Afrotheria. Below I append images of cresyl violet (left column) and myelin (right column) stained coronal sections through the brainstem with the IO, Vsens and Sp5 labelled as per the standard mammalian anatomy. Here we see hints of the serration of the IO (as defined by the authors), but we also see evidence of a more "bulbous" appearance of subnuclei of the IO (particularly the principal nucleus), and we also see many myelin stripes across the IO. Vsens is located laterally and skirted by the Sp5. This is in agreement with the authors, as they propose that ONLY the elephants show the variations they report. 

      (E) West Indian manatee (Trichechus manatus) 

      The sirens are the closest extant relatives of the elephants in the Afrotheria. Below I append images of cresyl violet (top) and myelin (bottom) stained coronal sections (taken from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Brain Collection, https://brainmuseum.org, and while quite low in magnification they do reveal the structures under debate) through the brainstem with the IO, Vsens and Sp5 labelled as per standard mammalian anatomy. Here we see the serration of the IO (as defined by the authors). Vsens is located laterally and skirted by the Sp5. This is in agreement with the authors, as they propose that ONLY the elephants show the variations they report.

      These comparisons and the structural identification, with which the authors agree as they only distinguish the elephants from the other Afrotheria, demonstrate that the appearance of the IO can be quite variable across mammalian species, including those with a close phylogenetic affinity to the elephants. Not all mammal species possess a "serrated" appearance of the IO. Thus, it is more than just theoretically possible that the IO of the elephant appears as described prior to this study. 

      So what about elephants? Below I append a series of images from coronal sections through the African elephant brainstem stained for Nissl, myelin, and immunostained for calretinin. These sections are labelled according to standard mammalian nomenclature. In these complete sections of the elephant brainstem, we do not see a serrated appearance of the IOM (as described previously and in the current study by the authors). Rather the principal nucleus of the IOM appears to be bulbous in nature. In the current study, no image of myelin staining in the IOM/VsensR is provided by the authors. However, in the images I provide, we do see the reported myelin stripes in all stains - agreement between the authors and reviewer on this point. The higher magnification image to the bottom left of the plate shows one of the IOM/VsensR myelin stripes immunostained for calretinin, and within the myelin stripes axons immunopositive for calretinin are seen (labelled with an arrow). The climbing fibres of the elephant cerebellar cortex are similarly calretinin immunopositive (10.1159/000345565). In contrast, although not shown at high magnification, the fibres forming the Sp5 in the elephant (in the Maseko description, unnamed in the description of the authors) show no immunoreactivity to calretinin. 

      Comment: We appreciate the referee’s additional comments. We concede the possibility that some relatives of elephants have a less serrated inferior olive than most other mammals. We maintain, however, that the elephant inferior olive (our Figure 1J) has the serrated appearance seen in the vast majority of mammals.

      Change: None.

      Peripherin Immunostaining 

      In their revised manuscript the authors present immunostaining of peripherin in the elephant brainstem. This is an important addition (although it does replace the only staining of myelin provided by the authors which is unusual as the word myelin is in the title of the paper) as peripherin is known to specifically label peripheral nerves. In addition, as pointed out by the authors, peripherin also immunostains climbing fibres (Errante et al., 1998). The understanding of this staining is important in determining the identification of the IO and Vsens in the elephant, although it is not ideal for this task as there is some ambiguity. Errante and colleagues (1998; Fig. 1) show that climbing fibres are peripherin-immunopositive in the rat. But what the authors do not evaluate is the extensive peripherin staining in the rat Sp5 in the same paper (Errante et al, 1998, Fig. 2). The image provided by the authors of their peripherin immunostaining (their new Figure 2) shows what I would call the Sp5 of the elephant to be strongly peripherin immunoreactive, just like the rat shown in Errant et al (1998), and more over in the precise position of the rat Sp5! This makes sense as this is where the axons subserving the "extraordinary" tactile sensitivity of the elephant trunk would be found (in the standard model of mammalian brainstem anatomy). Interestingly, the peripherin immunostaining in the elephant is clearly lamellated...this coincides precisely with the description of the trigeminal sensory nuclei in the elephant by Maskeo et al (2013) as pointed out by the authors in their rebuttal. Errante et al (1998) also point out peripherin immunostaining in the inferior olive, but according to the authors this is only "weakly present" in the elephant IOM/VsensR. This latter point is crucial. Surely if the elephant has an extraordinary sensory innervation from the trunk, with 400 000 axons entering the brain, the VsensR/IOM should be highly peripherin-immunopositive, including the myelinated axon bundles?! In this sense, the authors argue against their own interpretation - either the elephant trunk is not a highly sensitive tactile organ, or the VsensR is not the trigeminal nuclei it is supposed to be. 

      Comment: We made sure that elephant climbing fibers are strongly peripherin-positive (our revised Figure 2). As we noted in already our previous ms, we see weak diffuse peripherin-reactivity in the trigeminal nucleus (the inferior olive according to the referee), but no peripherin-reactive axon bundles (i.e. climbing fibers) that are seen in the inferior olive of other species. We also see no peripherin-reactive axon bundles (i.e. the olivo-cerebellar tract) arriving in the trigeminal nucleus as the tissue surrounding the trigeminal nucleus is devoid of peripherin-reactivity. Again, this finding is incompatible with the referee’s ideas. As far as we can tell, the trigeminal fibers are not reactive for peripherin in the elephant, i.e. we did not observe peripherin-reactivity very close to the nerve entry, but unfortunately, we did not stain for peripherin-reactivity into the nerve. As the referee alludes to the absence of peripherin-reactivity in the trigeminal tract is a difference between rodents and elephants.

      Change: Our novel Figure 2.

      Summary: 

      (1) Comparative data of species closely related to elephants (Afrotherians) demonstrates that not all mammals exhibit the "serrated" appearance of the principal nucleus of the inferior olive. 

      (2) The location of the IO and Vsens as reported in the current study (IOR and VsensR) would require a significant, and unprecedented, rearrangement of the brainstem in the elephants independently. I argue that the underlying molecular and genetic changes required to achieve this would be so extreme that it would lead to lethal phenotypes. Arguing that the "switcheroo" of the IO and Vsens does occur in the elephant (and no other mammals) and thus doesn't lead to lethal phenotypes is a circular argument that cannot be substantiated. 

      (3) Myelin stripes in the subnuclei of the inferior olivary nuclear complex are seen across all related mammals as shown above. Thus, the observation made in the elephant by the authors in what they call the VsensR, is similar to that seen in the IO of related mammals, especially when the IO takes on a more bulbous appearance. These myelin stripes are the origin of the olivocerebellar pathway, and are indeed calretinin immunopositive in the elephant as I show. 

      (4) What the authors see aligns perfectly with what has been described previously, the only difference being the names that nuclear complexes are being called. But identifying these nuclei is important, as any functional sequelae, as extensively discussed by the authors, is entirely dependent upon accurately identifying these nuclei. 

      (4) The peripherin immunostaining scores an own goal - if peripherin is marking peripheral nerves (as the authors and I believe it is), then why is the VsensR/IOM only "weakly positive" for this stain? This either means that the "extraordinary" tactile sensitivity of the elephant trunk is non-existent, or that the authors have misinterpreted this staining. That there is extensive staining in the fibre pathway dorsal and lateral to the IOR (which I call the spinal trigeminal tract), supports the idea that the authors have misinterpreted their peripherin immunostaining.

      (5) Evolutionary expediency. The authors argue that what they report is an expedient way in which to modify the organisation of the brainstem in the elephant to accommodate the "extraordinary" tactile sensitivity. I disagree. As pointed out in my first review, the elephant cerebellum is very large and comprised of huge numbers of morphologically complex neurons. The inferior olivary nuclei in all mammals studied in detail to date, give rise to the climbing fibres that terminate on the Purkinje cells of the cerebellar cortex. It is more parsimonious to argue that, in alignment with the expansion of the elephant cerebellum (for motor control of the trunk), the inferior olivary nuclei (specifically the principal nucleus) have had additional neurons added to accommodate this cerebellar expansion. Such an addition of neurons to the principal nucleus of the inferior olive could readily lead to the loss of the serrated appearance of the principal nucleus of the inferior olive, and would require far less modifications in the developmental genetic program that forms these nuclei. This type of quantitative change appears to be the primary way in which structures are altered in the mammalian brainstem. 

      Comment: We still disagree with the referee. We note that our conclusions rest on the analysis of 8 elephant brainstems, which we sectioned in three planes and stained with a variety of metabolic and antibody stains and in which assigned two structures (the inferior olive and the trigeminal nucleus). Most of the evidence cited by the referee stems from a single paper, in which 147 structures were identified based on the analysis of a single brainstem sectioned in one plane and stained with a limited set of antibodies. Our synopsis of the evidence is the following.

      (1) We agree with the referee that concerning brainstem position our scheme of a ventromedial trigeminal nucleus and a dorsolateral inferior olive deviates from the usual mammalian position of these nuclei (i.e. a dorsolateral trigeminal nucleus and a ventromedial inferior olive).

      (2) Cytoarchitectonics support our partitioning scheme. The compact cellular appearance of our ventromedial trigeminal nucleus is characteristic of trigeminal nuclei. The serrated appearance of our dorsolateral inferior olive is characteristic of the mammalian inferior olive; we acknowledge that the referee claims exceptions here. To our knowledge, nobody has described a mammalian trigeminal nucleus with a serrated appearance (which would apply to the elephant in case the trigeminal nucleus is situated dorsolaterally).

      (3) Metabolic staining (Cyto-chrome-oxidase reactivity) supports our partitioning scheme. Specifically, our ventromedial trigeminal nucleus shows intense Cyto-chrome-oxidase reactivity as it is seen in the trigeminal nuclei of trigeminal tactile experts.

      (4) Isomorphism. The myelin stripes on our ventromedial trigeminal nucleus are isomorphic to trunk wrinkles. Isomorphism is a characteristic of somatosensory brain structures (barrel, barrelettes, nose-stripes, etc) and we know of no case, where such isomorphism was misleading.

      (5) The large-scale organization of our ventromedial trigeminal nuclei in anterior-posterior repeats is characteristic of the mammalian trigeminal nuclei. To our knowledge, no such organization has ever been reported for the inferior olive.

      (6) Connectivity analysis supports our partitioning scheme. According to our delineation of the elephant olivo-cerebellar tract, our dorsolateral inferior olive is connected via peripherin-positive climbing fibers to the cerebellum. In contrast, our ventromedial trigeminal nucleus (the referee’s inferior olive) is not connected via climbing fibers to the cerebellum.

      Change: As discussed, we advanced further evidence in this revision. Our partitioning scheme (a ventromedial trigeminal nucleus and a dorsolateral inferior olive) is better supported by data and makes more sense than the referee’s suggestion (a dorsolateral trigeminal nucleus and a ventromedial inferior olive). It should be published.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary: 

      The study claims to investigate trunk representations in elephant trigeminal nuclei located in the brainstem. The researchers identify large protrusions visible from the ventral surface of the brainstem, which they examined using a range of histological methods. However, this ventral location is usually where the inferior olivary complex is found, which challenges the author's assertions about the nucleus under analysis. They find that this brainstem nucleus of elephants contains repeating modules, with a focus on the anterior and largest unit which they define as the putative nucleus principalis trunk module of the trigeminal. The nucleus exhibits low neuron density, with glia outnumbering neurons significantly. The study also utilizes synchrotron X-ray phase contrast tomography to suggest that myelin-stripe-axons traverse this module. The analysis maps myelin-rich stripes in several specimens and concludes that based on their number and patterning that they likely correspond with trunk folds; however this conclusion is not well supported if the nucleus has been misidentified. 

      Comment: The referee provides a summary of our work. The referee also notes that the correct identification of the trigeminal nucleus is critical to the message of our paper.

      Change: In line with these assessments we focused our revision efforts on the issue of trigeminal nucleus identification, please see our introductory comments and our response to Referee 2.

      Strengths: 

      The strength of this research lies in its comprehensive use of various anatomical methods, including Nissl staining, myelin staining, Golgi staining, cytochrome oxidase labeling, and synchrotron X-ray phase contrast tomography. The inclusion of quantitative data on cell numbers and sizes, dendritic orientation and morphology, and blood vessel density across the nucleus adds a quantitative dimension. Furthermore, the research is commendable for its high-quality and abundant images and figures, effectively illustrating the anatomy under investigation.

      Comment: We appreciate this positive assessment.

      Change: None

      Weaknesses: 

      While the research provides potentially valuable insights if revised to focus on the structure that appears to be inferior olivary nucleus, there are certain additional weaknesses that warrant further consideration. First, the suggestion that myelin stripes solely serve to separate sensory or motor modules rather than functioning as an "axonal supply system" lacks substantial support due to the absence of information about the neuronal origins and the termination targets of the axons. Postmortem fixed brain tissue limits the ability to trace full axon projections. While the study acknowledges these limitations, it is important to exercise caution in drawing conclusions about the precise role of myelin stripes without a more comprehensive understanding of their neural connections. 

      Comment: We understand these criticisms and the need for cautious interpretation. As we noted previously, we think that the Elife-publishing scheme, where critical referee commentary is published along with our ms, will make this contribution particularly valuable.

      Change: Our additional efforts to secure the correct identification of the trigeminal nucleus.

      Second, the quantification presented in the study lacks comparison to other species or other relevant variables within the elephant specimens (i.e., whole brain or brainstem volume). The absence of comparative data to different species limits the ability to fully evaluate the significance of the findings. Comparative analyses could provide a broader context for understanding whether the observed features are unique to elephants or more common across species. This limitation in comparative data hinders a more comprehensive assessment of the implications of the research within the broader field of neuroanatomy. Furthermore, the quantitative comparisons between African and Asian elephant specimens should include some measure of overall brain size as a covariate in the analyses. Addressing these weaknesses would enable a richer interpretation of the study's findings. 

      Comment: We understand, why the referee asks for additional comparative data, which would make our study more meaningful. We note that we already published a quantitative comparison of African and Asian elephant facial nuclei (Kaufmann et al. 2022). The quantitative differences between African and Asian elephant facial nuclei are similar in magnitude to what we observed here for the trigeminal nucleus, i.e. African elephants have about 10-15% more facial nucleus neurons than Asian elephants. The referee also notes that data on overall elephant brain size might be important for interpreting our data. We agree with this sentiment and we are preparing a ms on African and Asian elephant brain size. We find – unexpectedly given the larger body size of African elephants – that African elephants have smaller brains than Asian elephants. The finding might imply that African elephants, which have more facial nucleus neurons and more trigeminal nucleus trunk module neurons, are neurally more specialized in trunk control than Asian elephants.

      Change: We are preparing a further ms on African and Asian elephant brain size, a first version of this work has been submitted.

      Reviewer #4 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors report a novel isomorphism in which the folds of the elephant trunk are recognizably mapped onto the principal sensory trigeminal nucleus in the brainstem. Further, they identifiy the enlarged nucleus as being situated in this species in an unusual ventral midline position. 

      Comment: The referee summarizes our work.

      Change: None.

      Strengths: 

      The identity of the purported trigeminal nucleus and the isomorphic mapping with the trunk folds is supported by multiple lines of evidence: enhanced staining for cytochrome oxidase, an enzyme associated with high metabolic activity; dense vascularization, consistent with high metabolic activity; prominent myelinated bundles that partition the nucleus in a 1:1 mapping of the cutaneous folds in the trunk periphery; near absence of labeling for the anti-peripherin antibody, specific for climbing fibers, which can be seen as expected in the inferior olive; and a high density of glia.

      Comment: The referee again reviews some of our key findings.

      Change: None. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Despite the supporting evidence listed above, the identification of the gross anatomical bumps, conspicuous in the ventral midline, is problematic. This would be the standard location of the inferior olive, with the principal trigeminal nucleus occupying a more dorsal position. This presents an apparent contradiction which at a minimum needs further discussion. Major species-specific specializations and positional shifts are well-documented for cortical areas, but nuclear layouts in the brainstem have been considered as less malleable. 

      Comment: The referee notes that our discrepancy with referee 2, needs to be addressed with further evidence and discussion, given the unusual position of both inferior olive and trigeminal nucleus in the partitioning scheme and that the mammalian brainstem tends to be positionally conservative. We agree with the referee. We note that – based on the immense size of the elephant trigeminal ganglion (50 g), half the size of a monkey brain – it was expected that the elephant trigeminal nucleus ought to be exceptionally large.

      Change: We did additional experimental work to resolve this matter: (i) We ascertained that elephant climbing fibers are strongly peripherin-positive. (ii) Based on elephant climbing fiber peripherin-reactivity we delineated the elephant olivo-cerebellar tract. We find that the olivo-cerebellar connects to the structure we refer to as inferior olive to the cerebellum. (iii) We also found that the trigeminal nucleus (the structure the referee refers to as inferior olive) appears to receive no climbing fibers. (iv) We provide indications that the tracing of the trigeminal nerve into the olivo-cerebellar tract by Maseko et al. 2023 was erroneous (Referee-Figure 1). These novel findings support our ideas.

      Reviewer #5 (Public Review): 

      After reading the manuscript and the concerns raised by reviewer 2 I see both sides of the argument - the relative location of trigeminal nucleus versus the inferior olive is quite different in elephants (and different from previous studies in elephants), but when there is a large disproportionate magnification of a behaviorally relevant body part at most levels of the nervous system (certainly in the cortex and thalamus), you can get major shifting in location of different structures. In the case of the elephant, it looks like there may be a lot of shifting. Something that is compelling is that the number of modules separated but the myelin bands correspond to the number of trunk folds which is different in the different elephants. This sort of modular division based on body parts is a general principle of mammalian brain organization (demonstrated beautifully for the cuneate and gracile nucleus in primates, VP in most of species, S1 in a variety of mammals such as the star nosed mole and duck-billed platypus). I don't think these relative changes in the brainstem would require major genetic programming - although some surely exists. Rodents and elephants have been independently evolving for over 60 million years so there is a substantial amount of time for changes in each l lineage to occur.

      I agree that the authors have identified the trigeminal nucleus correctly, although comparisons with more out groups would be needed to confirm this (although I'm not suggesting that the authors do this). I also think the new figure (which shows previous divisions of the brainstem versus their own) allows the reader to consider these issues for themselves. When reviewing this paper, I actually took the time to go through atlases of other species and even look at some of my own data from highly derived species. Establishing homology across groups based only on relative location is tough especially when there appears to be large shifts in relative location of structures. My thoughts are that the authors did an extraordinary amount of work on obtaining, processing and analyzing this extremely valuable tissue. They document their work with images of the tissue and their arguments for their divisions are solid. I feel that they have earned the right to speculate - with qualifications - which they provide. 

      Comment: The referee summarizes our work and appears to be convinced by the line of our arguments. We are most grateful for this assessment. We add, again, that the skeptical assessment of referee 2 will be published as well and will give the interested reader the possibility to view another perspective on our work.

      Change: None. 

      Recommendations for the authors: 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      With this manuscript being virtually identical to the previous version, it is possible that some of the definitive conclusions about having identified the elephant trigeminal nucleus and trunk representation should be moderated in a more nuanced manner, especially given the careful and experienced perspective from reviewers with first hand knowledge elephant neuroanatomy.

      Comment: We agree that both our first and second revisions were very much centered on the debate of the correct identification of the trigeminal nucleus and that our ms did not evolve as much in other regards. This being said we agree with Referee 2 that we needed to have this debate. We also think we advanced important novel data in this context (the delineation of elephant olivo-cerebellar tract through the peripherin-antibody).

      Changes: Our revised Figure 2. 

      The peripherin staining adds another level of argument to the authors having identified the trigeminal brainstem instead of the inferior olive, if differential expression of peripherin is strong enough to distinguish one structure from the other.

      Comment: We think we showed too little peripherin-antibody staining in our previous revision. We have now addressed this problem.

      Changes: Our revised Figure 2, i.e. the delineation of elephant olivo-cerebellar tract through the peripherin-antibody).

      There are some minor corrections to be made with the addition of Fig. 2., including renumbering the figures in the manuscript (e.g., 406, 521). 

      I continue to appreciate this novel investigation of the elephant brainstem and find it an interesting and thorough study, with the use of classical and modern neuroanatomical methods.

      Comment: We are thankful for this positive assessment.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I do realise the authors are very unhappy with me and the reviews I have submitted. I do apologise if feelings have been hurt, and I do understand the authors put in a lot of hard work and thought to develop what they have; however, it is unfortunate that the work and thoughts are not correct. Science is about the search for the truth and sometimes we get it wrong. This is part of the scientific process and why most journals adhere to strict review processes of scientific manuscripts. As I said previously, the authors can use their data to write a paper describing and quantifying Golgi staining of neurons in the principal olivary nucleus of the elephant that should be published in a specialised journal and contextualised in terms of the motor control of the trunk and the large cerebellum of the elephant. 

      Comment: We appreciate the referee’s kind words. Also, no hard feelings from our side, this is just a scientific debate. In our experience, neuroanatomical debates are resolved by evidence and we note that we provide evidence strengthening our identification of the trigeminal nucleus and inferior olive. As far as we can tell from this effort and the substantial evidence accumulated, the referee is wrong.

      Reviewer #4 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As a new reviewer, I have benefited from reading the previous reviews and Author response, even while having several new comments to add. 

      (1) The identification of the inferior olive and trigeminal nuclei is obviously center stage. An enlargement of the trigeminal nuclei is not necessarily problematic, given the published reports on the dramatic enlargement of the trigeminal nerve (Purkart et al., 2022). At issue is the conspicuous relocation of the trigeminal nuclei that is being promoted by Reveyaz et al. Conspicuous rearrangements are not uncommon; for example, primary sensory cortical fields in different species (fig. 1 in H.H.A. Oelschlager for dolphins; S. De Vreese et al. (2023) for cetaceans, L. Krubitzer on various species, in the context of evolution). The difficult point here concerns what looks like a rather conspicuous gross anatomical rearrangement, in BRAINSTEM - the assumption being that the brainstem bauplan is going to be specifically conservative and refractory to gross anatomical rearrangement. 

      Comment: We agree with the referee that the brainstem rearrangements are unexpected. We also think that the correct identification of nuclei needs to be at the center of our revision efforts.

      Change: Our revision provided further evidence (delineation of the olivo-cerebellar tract, characterization of the trigeminal nerve entry) about the identity of the nuclei we studied.

      Why would a major nucleus shift to such a different location? and how? Can ex vivo DTI provide further support of the correct identification? Is there other "disruption" in the brainstem? What occupies the traditional position of the trigeminal nuclei? An atlas-equivalent coronal view of the entire brainstem would be informative. The Authors have assembled multiple criteria to support their argument that the ventral "bumps" are in fact a translocated trigeminal principal nucleus: enhanced CO staining, enhanced vascularization, enhanced myelination (via Golgi stains and tomography), very scant labeling for a climbing fiber specific antibody ( anti-peripherin), vs. dense staining of this in the alternative structure that they identify as IO; and a high density of glia. Admittedly, this should be sufficient, but the proposed translocation (in the BRAINSTEM) is sufficiently startling that this is arguably NOT sufficient. <br /> The terminology of "putative" is helpful, but a more cogent presentation of the results and more careful discussion might succeed in winning over at least some of a skeptical readership. 

      Comment: We do not know, what led to the elephant brainstem rearrangements we propose. If the trigeminal nuclei had expanded isometrically in elephants from the ancestral pattern, one would have expected a brain with big lateral bumps, not the elephant brain with its big ventromedial bumps. We note, however, that very likely the expansion of the elephant trigeminal nuclei did not occur isometrically. Instead, the neural representation of the elephant nose expanded dramatically and in rodents the nose is represented ventromedially in the brainstem face representation. Thus, we propose a ‘ventromedial outgrowth model’ according to which the elephant ventromedial trigeminal bumps result from a ventromedially direct outgrowth of the ancestral ventromedial nose representation.

      We advanced substantially more evidence to support our partitioning scheme, including the delineation of the olivo-cerebellar tract based on peripherin-reactivity. We also identified problems in previous partitioning schemes, such as the claim that the trigeminal nerve continues into the ~4x smaller olivocerebellar tract (Referee-Figure 1C, D); we think such a flow of fibers, (which is also at odds with peripherin-antibody-reactivity and the appearance of nerve and olivocerebellar tract), is highly unlikely if not physically impossible. With all that we do not think that we overstate our case in our cautiously presented ms.

      Change: We added evidence on the identification of elephant trigeminal nuclei and inferior olive.

      (2) Role of myelin. While the photos of myelin are convincing, it would be nice to have further documentation. Gallyas? Would antibodies to MBP work? What is the myelin distribution in the "standard" trigeminal nuclei (human? macaque or chimpanzee?). What are alternative sources of the bundles? Regardless, I think it would be beneficial to de-emphasize this point about the role of myelin in demarcating compartments. <br /> I would in fact suggest an alternative (more neutral) title that might highlight instead the isomorphic feature; for example, "An isomorphic representation of Trunk folds in the Elephant Trigeminal Nucleus." The present title stresses myelin, but figure 1 already focuses on CO. Additionally, the folds are actually mentioned almost in passing until later in the manuscript. I recommend a short section on these at the beginning of the Results to serve as a useful framework.

      Here I'm inclined to agree with the Reviewer, that the Authors' contention that the myelin stipes serve PRIMARILY to separate trunk-fold domains is not particularly compelling and arguably a distraction. The point can be made, but perhaps with less emphasis. After all, the fact that myelin has multiple roles is well-established, even if frequently overlooked. In addition, the Authors might make better use of an extensive relevant literature related to myelin as a compartmental marker; for example, results and discussion in D. Haenelt....N. Weiskopf (eLife, 2023), among others. Another example is the heavily myelinated stria of Gennari in primate visual cortex, consisting of intrinsic pyramidal cell axons, but where the role of the myelination has still not been elucidated. 

      Comment: (1) Documentation of myelin. We note that we show further identification of myelinated fibers by the fluorescent dye fluomyelin in Figure 4B. We also performed additional myelin stains as the gold-myelin stain after the protocol of Schmued (Referee-Figure 2). In the end, nothing worked quite as well to visualize myelin-stripes as the bright-field images shown in Figure 4A and it is only the images that allowed us to match myelin-stripes to trunk folds. Hence, we focus our presentation on these images.

      (2) Title: We get why the referee envisions an alternative title. This being said, we would like to stick with our current title, because we feel it highlights the major novelty we discovered.

      (3) We agree with many of the other comments of the referee on myelin phenomenology. We missed the Haenelt reference pointed out by the referee and think it is highly relevant to our paper

      Change: 1. Review image 2. Inclusion of the Haenelt-reference.

      Author response image 2.

      Myelin stripes of the elephant trunk module visualized by Gold-chloride staining according to Schmued. A, Low magnification micrograph of the trunk module of African elephant Indra stained with AuCl according to Schmued. The putative finger is to the left, proximal is to the right. Myelin stripes can easily be recognized. The white box indicates the area shown in B. B, high magnification micrograph of two myelin stripes. Individual gold-stained (black) axons organized in myelin stripes can be recognized.

      Schmued, L. C. (1990). A rapid, sensitive histochemical stain for myelin in frozen brain sections. Journal of Histochemistry & Cytochemistry,38(5), 717-720.

      Are the "bumps" in any way "analogous" to the "brain warts" seen in entorhinal areas of some human brains (G. W. van Hoesen and A. Solodkin (1993)? 

      Comment: We think this is a similar phenomenon.

      Change: We included the Hoesen and A. Solodkin (1993) reference in our discussion.

      At least slightly more background (ie, a separate section or, if necessary, supplement) would be helpful, going into more detail on the several subdivisions of the ION and if these undergo major alterations in the elephant.

      Comment: The strength of the paper is the detailed delineation of the trunk module, based on myelin stripes and isomorphism. We don’t think we have strong evidence on ION subdivisions, because it appears the trigeminal tract cannot be easily traced in elephants. Accordingly, we find it difficult to add information here.

      Change: None.

      Is there evidence from the literature of other conspicuous gross anatomical translocations, in any species, especially in subcortical regions? 

      Comment: The best example that comes to mind is the star-nosed mole brainstem. There is a beautiful paper comparing the star-nosed mole brainstem to the normal mole brainstem (Catania et al 2011). The principal trigeminal nucleus in the star-nosed mole is far more rostral and also more medial than in the mole; still, such rearrangements are minor compared to what we propose in elephants.

      Catania, Kenneth C., Duncan B. Leitch, and Danielle Gauthier. "A star in the brainstem reveals the first step of cortical magnification." PloS one 6.7 (2011): e22406.

      Change: None.

      (3) A major point concerns the isomorphism between the putative trigeminal nuclei and the trunk specialization. I think this can be much better presented, at least with more discussion and other examples. The Authors mention about the rodent "barrels," but it seemed strange to me that they do not refer to their own results in pig (C. Ritter et al., 2023) nor the work from Ken Catania, 2002 (star-nosed mole; "fingerprints in the brain") or other that might be appropriate. I concur with the Reviewer that there should be more comparative data. 

      Comment: We agree.

      Change: We added a discussion of other isomorphisms including the the star-nosed mole to our paper.

      (4) Textual organization could be improved. 

      The Abstract all-important Introduction is a longish, semi "run-on" paragraph. At a minimum this should be broken up. The last paragraph of the Introduction puts forth five issues, but these are only loosely followed in the Results section. I think clarity and good organization is of the upmost importance in this manuscript. I recommend that the Authors begin the Results with a section on the trunk folds (currently figure 5, and discussion), continue with the several points related to the identification of the trigeminal nuclei, and continue with a parallel description of ION with more parallel data on the putative trigeminal and IO structures (currently referee Table 1, but incorporate into the text and add higher magnification of nucleus-specific cell types in the IO and trigeminal nuclei). Relevant comparative data should be included in the Discussion.

      Comment: 1. We agree with the referee that our abstract needed to be revised. 2. We also think that our ms was heavily altered by the insertion of the new Figure 2, which complemented Figure 1 from our first submission and is concerned with the identification of the inferior olive. From a standpoint of textual flow such changes were not ideal, but the revisions massively added to the certainty with which we identify the trigeminal nuclei. Thus, although we are not as content as we were with the flow, we think the ms advanced in the revision process and we would like to keep the Figure sequence as is. 3. We already noted above that we included additional comparative evidence.

      Change: 1. We revised our abstract. 2. We added comparative evidence.

      Reviewer #5 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      The data is invaluable and provides insights into some of the largest mammals on the planet. 

      Comment: We are incredibly thankful for this positive assessment.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This neuroimaging and electrophysiology study in a small cohort of congenital cataract patients with sight recovery aims to characterize the effects of early visual deprivation on excitatory and inhibitory balance in visual cortex. While contrasting sight-recovery with visually intact controls suggested the existence of persistent alterations in Glx/GABA ratio and aperiodic EEG signals, it provided only incomplete evidence supporting claims about the effects of early deprivation itself. The reported data were considered valuable, given the rare study population. However, the small sample sizes, lack of a specific control cohort and multiple methodological limitations will likely restrict usefulness to scientists working in this particular subfield.

      We thank the reviewing editors for their consideration and updated assessment of our manuscript after its first revision.

      In order to assess the effects of early deprivation, we included an age-matched, normally sighted control group recruited from the same community, measured in the same scanner and laboratory. This study design is analogous to numerous studies in permanently congenitally blind humans, which typically recruited sighted controls, but hardly ever individuals with a different, e.g. late blindness history. In order to improve the specificity of our conclusions, we used a frontal cortex voxel in addition to a visual cortex voxel (MRS). Analogously, we separately analyzed occipital and frontal electrodes (EEG).

      Moreover, we relate our findings in congenital cataract reversal individuals to findings in the literature on permanent congenital blindness. Note, there are, to the best of our knowledge, neither MRS nor resting-state EEG studies in individuals with permanent late blindness.

      Our participants necessarily have nystagmus and low visual acuity due to their congenital deprivation phase, and the existence of nystagmus is a recruitment criterion to diagnose congenital cataracts.

      It might be interesting for future studies to investigate individuals with transient late blindness. However, such a study would be ill-motivated had we not found differences between the most “extreme” of congenital visual deprivation conditions and normally sighted individuals (analogous to why earlier research on permanent blindness investigated permanent congenitally blind humans first, rather than permanently late blind humans, or both in the same study). Any result of these future work would need the reference to our study, and neither results in these additional groups would invalidate our findings.

      Since all our congenital cataract reversal individuals by definition had visual impairments, we included an eyes closed condition, both in the MRS and EEG assessment. Any group effect during the eyes closed condition cannot be due to visual acuity deficits changing the bottom-up driven visual activation.

      As we detail in response to review 3, our EEG analyses followed the standards in the field.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary

      In this human neuroimaging and electrophysiology study, the authors aimed to characterise effects of a period of visual deprivation in the sensitive period on excitatory and inhibitory balance in the visual cortex. They attempted to do so by comparing neurochemistry conditions ('eyes open', 'eyes closed') and resting state, and visually evoked EEG activity between ten congenital cataract patients with recovered sight (CC), and ten age-matched control participants (SC) with normal sight.

      First, they used magnetic resonance spectroscopy to measure in vivo neurochemistry from two locations, the primary location of interest in the visual cortex, and a control location in the frontal cortex. Such voxels are used to provide a control for the spatial specificity of any effects, because the single-voxel MRS method provides a single sampling location. Using MR-visible proxies of excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmission, Glx and GABA+ respectively, the authors report no group effects in GABA+ or Glx, no difference in the functional conditions 'eyes closed' and 'eyes open'. They found an effect of group in the ratio of Glx/GABA+ and no similar effect in the control voxel location. They then perform multiple exploratory correlations between MRS measures and visual acuity, and report a weak positive correlation between the 'eyes open' condition and visual acuity in CC participants.

      The same participants then took part in an EEG experiment. The authors selected two electrodes placed in the visual cortex for analysis and report a group difference in an EEG index of neural activity, the aperiodic intercept, as well as the aperiodic slope, considered a proxy for cortical inhibition. Control electrodes in the frontal region did not present with the same pattern. They report an exploratory correlation between the aperiodic intercept and Glx in one out of three EEG conditions.

      The authors report the difference in E/I ratio, and interpret the lower E/I ratio as representing an adaptation to visual deprivation, which would have initially caused a higher E/I ratio. Although intriguing, the strength of evidence in support of this view is not strong. Amongst the limitations are the low sample size, a critical control cohort that could provide evidence for higher E/I ratio in CC patients without recovered sight for example, and lower data quality in the control voxel. Nevertheless, the study provides a rare and valuable insight into experience-dependent plasticity in the human brain.

      Strengths of study

      How sensitive period experience shapes the developing brain is an enduring and important question in neuroscience. This question has been particularly difficult to investigate in humans. The authors recruited a small number of sight-recovered participants with bilateral congenital cataracts to investigate the effect of sensitive period deprivation on the balance of excitation and inhibition in the visual brain using measures of brain chemistry and brain electrophysiology. The research is novel, and the paper was interesting and well written.

      Limitations

      Low sample size. Ten for CC and ten for SC, and further two SC participants were rejected due to lack of frontal control voxel data. The sample size limits the statistical power of the dataset and increases the likelihood of effect inflation.

      In the updated manuscript, the authors have provided justification for their sample size by pointing to prior studies and the inherent difficulties in recruiting individuals with bilateral congenital cataracts. Importantly, this highlights the value the study brings to the field while also acknowledging the need to replicate the effects in a larger cohort.

      Lack of specific control cohort. The control cohort has normal vision. The control cohort is not specific enough to distinguish between people with sight loss due to different causes and patients with congenital cataracts with co-morbidities. Further data from a more specific populations, such as patients whose cataracts have not been removed, with developmental cataracts, or congenitally blind participants, would greatly improve the interpretability of the main finding. The lack of a more specific control cohort is a major caveat that limits a conclusive interpretation of the results.

      In the updated version, the authors have indicated that future studies can pursue comparisons between congenital cataract participants and cohorts with later sight loss.

      MRS data quality differences. Data quality in the control voxel appears worse than in the visual cortex voxel. The frontal cortex MRS spectrum shows far broader linewidth than the visual cortex (Supplementary Figures). Compared to the visual voxel, the frontal cortex voxel has less defined Glx and GABA+ peaks; lower GABA+ and Glx concentrations, lower NAA SNR values; lower NAA concentrations. If the data quality is a lot worse in the FC, then small effects may not be detectable.

      In the updated version, the authors have added more information that informs the reader of the MRS quality differences between voxel locations. This increases the transparency of their reporting and enhances the assessment of the results.

      Because of the direction of the difference in E/I, the authors interpret their findings as representing signatures of sight improvement after surgery without further evidence, either within the study or from the literature. However, the literature suggests that plasticity and visual deprivation drives the E/I index up rather than down. Decreasing GABA+ is thought to facilitate experience dependent remodelling. What evidence is there that cortical inhibition increases in response to a visual cortex that is over-sensitised to due congenital cataracts? Without further experimental or literature support this interpretation remains very speculative.

      The updated manuscript contains key reference from non-human work to justify their interpretation.

      Heterogeneity in patient group. Congenital cataract (CC) patients experienced a variety of duration of visual impairment and were of different ages. They presented with co-morbidities (absorbed lens, strabismus, nystagmus). Strabismus has been associated with abnormalities in GABAergic inhibition in the visual cortex. The possible interactions with residual vision and confounds of co-morbidities are not experimentally controlled for in the correlations, and not discussed.

      The updated document has addressed this caveat.

      Multiple exploratory correlations were performed to relate MRS measures to visual acuity (shown in Supplementary Materials), and only specific ones shown in the main document. The authors describe the analysis as exploratory in the 'Methods' section. Furthermore, the correlation between visual acuity and E/I metric is weak, not corrected for multiple comparisons. The results should be presented as preliminary, as no strong conclusions can be made from them. They can provide a hypothesis to test in a future study.

      This has now been done throughout the document and increases the transparency of the reporting.

      P.16 Given the correlation of the aperiodic intercept with age ("Age negatively correlated with the aperiodic intercept across CC and SC individuals, that is, a flattening of the intercept was observed with age"), age needs to be controlled for in the correlation between neurochemistry and the aperiodic intercept. Glx has also been shown to negatively correlates with age.

      This caveat has been addressed in the revised manuscript.

      Multiple exploratory correlations were performed to relate MRS to EEG measures (shown in Supplementary Materials), and only specific ones shown in the main document. Given the multiple measures from the MRS, the correlations with the EEG measures were exploratory, as stated in the text, p.16, and in Fig.4. yet the introduction said that there was a prior hypothesis "We further hypothesized that neurotransmitter changes would relate to changes in the slope and intercept of the EEG aperiodic activity in the same subjects." It would be great if the text could be revised for consistency and the analysis described as exploratory.

      This has been done throughout the document and increases the transparency of the reporting.

      The analysis for the EEG needs to take more advantage of the available data. As far as I understand, only two electrodes were used, yet far more were available as seen in their previous study (Ossandon et al., 2023). The spatial specificity is not established. The authors could use the frontal cortex electrode (FP1, FP2) signals as a control for spatial specificity in the group effects, or even better, all available electrodes and correct for multiple comparisons. Furthermore, they could use the aperiodic intercept vs Glx in SC to evaluate the specificity of the correlation to CC.

      This caveat has been addressed. The authors have added frontal electrodes to their analysis, providing an essential regional control for the visual cortex location.

      Comments on the latest version:

      The authors have made reasonable adjustments to their manuscript that addressed most of my comments by adding further justification for their methodology, essential literature support, pointing out exploratory analyses, limitations and adding key control analyses. Their revised manuscript has overall improved, providing valuable information, though the evidence that supports their claims is still incomplete.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting ways to improve our manuscript and carefully reassessing our revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study examined 10 congenitally blind patients who recovered vision through the surgical removal of bilateral dense cataracts, measuring neural activity and neuro chemical profiles from the visual cortex. The declared aim is to test whether restoring visual function after years of complete blindness impacts excitation/inhibition balance in the visual cortex.

      Strengths:

      The findings are undoubtedly useful for the community, as they contribute towards characterising the many ways in which this special population differs from normally sighted individuals. The combination of MRS and EEG measures is a promising strategy to estimate a fundamental physiological parameter - the balance between excitation and inhibition in the visual cortex, which animal studies show to be heavily dependent upon early visual experience. Thus, the reported results pave the way for further studies, which may use a similar approach to evaluate more patients and control groups.

      Weaknesses:

      The main methodological limitation is the lack of an appropriate comparison group or condition to delineate the effect of sight recovery (as opposed to the effect of congenital blindness). Few previous studies suggested that Excitation/Inhibition ratio in the visual cortex is increased in congenitally blind patients; the present study reports that E/I ratio decreases instead. The authors claim that this implies a change of E/I ratio following sight recovery. However, supporting this claim would require showing a shift of E/I after vs. before the sight-recovery surgery, or at least it would require comparing patients who did and did not undergo the sight-recovery surgery (as common in the field).

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting ways to improve our manuscript and carefully reassessing our revised manuscript.

      Since we have not been able to acquire longitudinal data with the experimental design of the present study in congenital cataract reversal individuals, we compared the MRS and EEG results of congenital cataract reversal individuals  to published work in congenitally permanent blind individuals. We consider this as a resource saving approach. We think that the results of our cross-sectional study now justify the costs and enormous efforts (and time for the patients who often have to travel long distances) associated with longitudinal studies in this rare population.

      There are also more technical limitations related to the correlation analyses, which are partly acknowledged in the manuscript. A bland correlation between GLX/GABA and the visual impairment is reported, but this is specific to the patients group (N=10) and would not hold across groups (the correlation is positive, predicting the lowest GLX/GABA ratio values for the sighted controls - opposite of what is found). There is also a strong correlation between GLX concentrations and the EEG power at the lowest temporal frequencies. Although this relation is intriguing, it only holds for a very specific combination of parameters (of the many tested): only with eyes open, only in the patients group.

      Given the exploratory nature of the correlations, we do not base the majority of our conclusions on this analysis. There are no doubts that the reported correlations need replication; however, replication is only possible after a first report. Thus, we hope to motivate corresponding analyses in further studies.

      It has to be noted that in the present study significance testing for correlations were corrected for multiple comparisons, and that some findings replicate earlier reports (e.g. effects on EEG aperiodic slope, alpha power, and correlations with chronological age).

      Conclusions:

      The main claim of the study is that sight recovery impacts the excitation/inhibition balance in the visual cortex, estimated with MRS or through indirect EEG indices. However, due to the weaknesses outlined above, the study cannot distinguish the effects of sight recovery from those of visual deprivation. Moreover, many aspects of the results are interesting but their validation and interpretation require additional experimental work.

      We interpret the group differences between individuals tested years after congenital visual deprivation and normally sighted individuals as supportive of the E/I ratio being impacted by congenital visual deprivation. In the absence of a sensitive period for the development of an E/I ratio, individuals with a transient phase of congenital blindness might have developed a visual system indistinguishable  from normally sighted individuals. As we demonstrate, this is not so. Comparing the results of congenitally blind humans with those of congenitally permanently blind humans (from previous studies) allowed us to identify changes of E/I ratio, which add to those found for congenital blindness.  

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful comments and suggestions related to the first submission and first revision of our manuscript. We are keen to translate some of them into future studies.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This manuscript examines the impact of congenital visual deprivation on the excitatory/inhibitory (E/I) ratio in the visual cortex using Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy (MRS) and electroencephalography (EEG) in individuals whose sight was restored. Ten individuals with reversed congenital cataracts were compared to age-matched, normally sighted controls, assessing the cortical E/I balance and its interrelationship and to visual acuity. The study reveals that the Glx/GABA ratio in the visual cortex and the intercept and aperiodic signal are significantly altered in those with a history of early visual deprivation, suggesting persistent neurophysiological changes despite visual restoration.

      First of all, I would like to disclose that I am not an expert in congenital visual deprivation, nor in MRS. My expertise is in EEG (particularly in the decomposition of periodic and aperiodic activity) and statistical methods.

      Although the authors addressed some of the concerns of the previous version, major concerns and flaws remain in terms of methodological and statistical approaches along with the (over)interpretation of the results. Specific concerns include:

      (1 3.1) Response to Variability in Visual Deprivation<br /> Rather than listing the advantages and disadvantages of visual deprivation, I recommend providing at least a descriptive analysis of how the duration of visual deprivation influenced the measures of interest. This would enhance the depth and relevance of the discussion.

      Although Review 2 and Review 3 (see below) pointed out problems in interpreting multiple correlational analyses in small samples, we addressed this request by reporting such correlations between visual deprivation history and measured EEG/MRS outcomes.

      Calculating the correlation between duration of visual deprivation and behavioral or brain measures is, in fact, a common suggestion. The existence of sensitive periods, which are typically assumed to not follow a linear gradual decline of neuroplasticity, does not necessary allow predicting a correlation with duration of blindness. Daphne Maurer has additionally worked on the concept of “sleeper effects” (Maurer et al., 2007), that is, effects on the brain and behavior by early deprivation which are observed only later in life when the function/neural circuits matures.

      In accordance with this reasoning, we did not observe a significant correlation between duration of visual deprivation and any of our dependent variables.

      (2 3.2) Small Sample Size<br /> The issue of small sample size remains problematic. The justification that previous studies employed similar sample sizes does not adequately address the limitation in the current study. I strongly suggest that the correlation analyses should not feature prominently in the main manuscript or the abstract, especially if the discussion does not substantially rely on these correlations. Please also revisit the recommendations made in the section on statistical concerns.

      In the revised manuscript, we explicitly mention that our sample size is not atypical for the special group investigated, but that a replication of our results in larger samples would foster their impact. We only explicitly mention correlations that survived stringent testing for multiple comparisons in the main manuscript.

      Given the exploratory nature of the correlations, we have not based the majority of our claims on this analysis.

      (3 3.3) Statistical Concerns<br /> While I appreciate the effort of conducting an independent statistical check, it merely validates whether the reported statistical parameters, degrees of freedom (df), and p-values are consistent. However, this does not address the appropriateness of the chosen statistical methods.

      We did not intend for the statcheck report to justify the methods used for statistics, which we have done in a separate section with normality and homogeneity testing (Supplementary Material S9), and references to it in the descriptions of the statistical analyses (Methods, Page 13, Lines 326-329 and Page 15, Lines 400-402).

      Several points require clarification or improvement:<br /> (4) Correlation Methods: The manuscript does not specify whether the reported correlation analyses are based on Pearson or Spearman correlation.

      The depicted correlations are Pearson correlations. We will add this information to the Methods.

      (5) Confidence Intervals: Include confidence intervals for correlations to represent the uncertainty associated with these estimates.

      We have added the confidence intervals for all measured correlations to the second revision of our manuscript.

      (6) Permutation Statistics: Given the small sample size, I recommend using permutation statistics, as these are exact tests and more appropriate for small datasets.

      Our study focuses on a rare population, with a sample size limited by the availability of participants. Our findings provide exploratory insights rather than make strong inferential claims. To this end, we have ensured that our analysis adheres to key statistical assumptions (Shapiro-Wilk as well as Levene’s tests, Supplementary Material S9), and reported our findings with effect sizes, appropriate caution and context.

      (7) Adjusted P-Values: Ensure that reported Bonferroni corrected p-values (e.g., p > 0.999) are clearly labeled as adjusted p-values where applicable.

      In the revised manuscript, we have changed Figure 4 to say ‘adjusted p,’  which we indeed reported.

      (8) Figure 2C

      Figure 2C still lacks crucial information that the correlation between Glx/GABA ratio and visual acuity was computed solely in the control group (as described in the rebuttal letter). Why was this analysis restricted to the control group? Please provide a rationale.

      Figure 2C depicts the correlation between Glx/GABA+ ratio and visual acuity in the congenital cataract reversal group, not the control group. This is mentioned in the Figure 2 legend, as well as in the main text where the figure is referred to (Page 18, Line 475).

      The correlation analyses between visual acuity and MRS/EEG measures were only performed in the congenital cataract reversal group since the sighed control group comprised of individuals with vision in the normal range; thus this analyses would not make sense. Table 1 with the individual visual acuities for all participants, including the normally sighted controls, shows the low variance in the latter group.  

      For variables in which no apiori group differences in variance were predicted, we performed the correlation analyses across groups (see Supplementary Material S12, S15).

      We have now highlighted these motivations more clearly in the Methods of the revised manuscript (Page 16, Lines 405-410).

      (9 3.4) Interpretation of Aperiodic Signal

      Relying on previous studies to interpret the aperiodic slope as a proxy for excitation/inhibition (E/I) does not make the interpretation more robust.

      How to interpret aperiodic EEG activity has been subject of extensive investigation. We cite studies which provide evidence from multiple species (monkeys, humans) and measurements (EEG, MEG, ECoG), including studies which pharmacologically manipulated E/I balance.

      Whether our findings are robust, in fact, requires a replication study. Importantly, we analyzed the intercept of the aperiodic activity fit as well, and discuss results related to the intercept.

      Quote:

      “(3.4) Interpretation of aperiodic signal:

      - Several recent papers demonstrated that the aperiodic signal measured in EEG or ECoG is related to various important aspects such as age, skull thickness, electrode impedance, as well as cognition. Thus, currently, very little is known about the underlying effects which influence the aperiodic intercept and slope. The entire interpretation of the aperiodic slope as a proxy for E/I is based on a computational model and simulation (as described in the Gao et al. paper).

      Apart from the modeling work from Gao et al., multiple papers which have also been cited which used ECoG, EEG and MEG and showed concomitant changes in aperiodic activity with pharmacological manipulation of the E/I ratio (Colombo et al., 2019; Molina et al., 2020; Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018). Further, several prior studies have interpreted changes in the aperiodic slope as reflective of changes in the E/I ratio, including studies of developmental groups (Favaro et al., 2023; Hill et al., 2022; McSweeney et al., 2023; Schaworonkow & Voytek, 2021) as well as patient groups (Molina et al., 2020; Ostlund et al., 2021).

      - The authors further wrote: We used the slope of the aperiodic (1/f) component of the EEG spectrum as an estimate of E/I ratio (Gao et al., 2017; Medel et al., 2020; Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018). This is a highly speculative interpretation with very little empirical evidence. These papers were conducted with ECoG data (mostly in animals) and mostly under anesthesia. Thus, these studies only allow an indirect interpretation by what the 1/f slope in EEG measurements is actually influenced.

      Note that Muthukumaraswamy et al. (2018) used different types of pharmacological manipulations and analyzed periodic and aperiodic MEG activity in humans, in addition to monkey ECoG (Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018). Further, Medel et al. (now published as Medel et al., 2023) compared EEG activity in addition to ECoG data after propofol administration. The interpretation of our results are in line with a number of recent studies in developing (Hill et al., 2022; Schaworonkow & Voytek, 2021) and special populations using EEG. As mentioned above, several prior studies have used the slope of the 1/f component/aperiodic activity as an indirect measure of the E/I ratio (Favaro et al., 2023; Hill et al., 2022; McSweeney et al., 2023; Molina et al., 2020; Ostlund et al., 2021; Schaworonkow & Voytek, 2021), including studies using scalp-recorded EEG from humans.

      In the introduction of the revised manuscript, we have made more explicit that this metric is indirect (Page 3, Line 91), (additionally see Discussion, Page 24, Lines 644-645, Page 25, Lines 650-657).

      While a full understanding of aperiodic activity needs to be provided, some convergent ideas have emerged. We think that our results contribute to this enterprise, since our study is, to the best of our knowledge, the first which assessed MRS measured neurotransmitter levels and EEG aperiodic activity. “

      (10) Additionally, the authors state:

      "We cannot think of how any of the exploratory correlations between neurophysiological measures and MRS measures could be accounted for by a difference e.g. in skull thickness."

      (11) This could be addressed directly by including skull thickness as a covariate or visualizing it in scatterplots, for instance, by representing skull thickness as the size of the dots.

      We are not aware of any study that would justify such an analysis.

      Our analyses were based on previous findings in the literature.

      Since to the best of our knowledge, no evidence exists that congenital cataracts go together with changes in skull thickness, and that skull thickness might selectively modulate visual cortex Glx/GABA+ but not NAA measures, we decided against following this suggestion.

      Notably, the neurotransmitter concentration reported here is after tissue segmentation of the voxel region. The tissue fraction was shown to not differ between groups in the MRS voxels (Supplementary Material S4). The EEG electrode impedance was lowered to <10 kOhm in every participant (Methods, Page 13, Line 344), and preparation was identical across groups.

      (12 3.5) Problems with EEG Preprocessing and Analysis

      Downsampling: The decision to downsample the data to 60 Hz "to match the stimulation rate" is problematic. This choice conflates subsequent spectral analyses due to aliasing issues, as explained by the Nyquist theorem. While the authors cite prior studies (Schwenk et al., 2020; VanRullen & MacDonald, 2012) to justify this decision, these studies focused on alpha (8-12 Hz), where aliasing is less of a concern compared of analyzing aperiodic signal. Furthermore, in contrast, the current study analyzes the frequency range from 1-20 Hz, which is too narrow for interpreting the aperiodic signal as E/I. Typically, this analysis should include higher frequencies, spanning at least 1-30 Hz or even 1-45 Hz (not 20-40 Hz).

      As previously mentied in the Methods (Page 15 Line 376) and the previous response, the pop_resample function used by EEGLAB applies an anti-aliasing filter, at half the resampling frequency (as per the Nyquist theorem

      https://eeglab.org/tutorials/05_Preprocess/resampling.html). The upper cut off of the low pass filter set by EEGlab prior to down sampling (30 Hz) is still far above the frequency of interest in the current study  (1-20 Hz), thus allowing us to derive valid results.

      Quote:

      “- The authors downsampled the data to 60Hz to "to match the stimulation rate". What is the intention of this? Because the subsequent spectral analyses are conflated by this choice (see Nyquist theorem).

      This data were collected as part of a study designed to evoke alpha activity with visual white-noise, which ranged in luminance with equal power at all frequencies from 1-60 Hz, restricted by the refresh rate of the monitor on which stimuli were presented (Pant et al., 2023). This paradigm and method was developed by VanRullen and colleagues (Schwenk et al., 2020; Vanrullen & MacDonald, 2012), wherein the analysis requires the same sampling rate between the presented frequencies and the EEG data. The downsampling function used here automatically applies an anti-aliasing filter (EEGLAB 2019) .”

      Moreover, the resting-state data were not resampled to 60 Hz. We have made this clearer in the Methods of the second revision (Page 15, Line 367).

      Our consistent results of group differences across all three EEG conditions, thus, exclude any possibility that they were driven by aliasing artifacts.

      The expected effects of this anti-aliasing filter can be seen in the attached Author response image 1, showing an example participant’s spectrum in the 1-30 Hz range (as opposed to the 1-20 Hz plotted in the manuscript), clearly showing a 30-40 dB drop at 30 Hz. Any aliasing due to, for example, remaining line noise, would additionally be visible in this figure (as well as Figure 3) as a peak.

      Author response image 1.

      Power spectral density of one congenital cataract-reversal (CC) participant in the visual stimulation condition across all channels. The reduced power at 30 Hz shows the effects of the anti-aliasing filter applied by EEGLAB’s pop_resample function.

      As we stated in the manuscript, and in previous reviews, so far there has been no consensus on the exact range of measuring aperiodic activity. We made a principled decision based on the literature (showing a knee in aperiodic fits of this dataset at 20 Hz) (Medel et al., 2023; Ossandón et al., 2023), data quality (possible contamination by line noise at higher frequencies) and the purpose of the visual stimulation experiment (to look at the lower frequency range by stimulating up to 60 Hz, thereby limiting us to quantifying below 30 Hz), that 1-20 Hz would be the fit range in this dataset.

      Quote:

      “(3) What's the underlying idea of analyzing two separate aperiodic slopes (20-40Hz and 1-19Hz). This is very unusual to compute the slope between 20-40 Hz, where the SNR is rather low.

      "Ossandón et al. (2023), however, observed that in addition to the flatter slope of the aperiodic power spectrum in the high frequency range (20-40 Hz), the slope of the low frequency range (1-19 Hz) was steeper in both, congenital cataract-reversal individuals, as well as in permanently congenitally blind humans."

      The present manuscript computed the slope between 1-20 Hz. Ossandón et al. as well as Medel et al. (2023) found a “knee” of the 1/f distribution at 20 Hz and describe further the motivations for computing both slope ranges. For example, Ossandón et al. used a data driven approach and compared single vs. dual fits and found that the latter fitted the data better. Additionally, they found the best fit if a knee at 20 Hz was used. We would like to point out that no standard range exists for the fitting of the 1/f component across the literature and, in fact, very different ranges have been used (Gao et al., 2017; Medel et al., 2023; Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018). “

      (13) Baseline Removal: Subtracting the mean activity across an epoch as a baseline removal step is inappropriate for resting-state EEG data. This preprocessing step undermines the validity of the analysis. The EEG dataset has fundamental flaws, many of which were pointed out in the previous review round but remain unaddressed. In its current form, the manuscript falls short of standards for robust EEG analysis. If I were reviewing for another journal, I would recommend rejection based on these flaws.

      The baseline removal step from each epoch serves to remove the DC component of the recording and detrend the data. This is a standard preprocessing step (included as an option in preprocessing pipelines recommended by the EEGLAB toolbox, FieldTrip toolbox and MNE toolbox), additionally necessary to improve the efficacy of ICA decomposition (Groppe et al., 2009).

      In the previous review round, a clarification of the baseline timing was requested, which we added. Beyond this request, there was no mention of the appropriateness of the baseline removal and/or a request to provide reasons for why it might not undermine the validity of the analysis.

      Quote:

      “- "Subsequently, baseline removal was conducted by subtracting the mean activity across the length of an epoch from every data point." The actual baseline time segment should be specified.

      The time segment was the length of the epoch, that is, 1 second for the resting state conditions and 6.25 seconds for the visual stimulation conditions. This has been explicitly stated in the revised manuscript (Page 13, Line 354).”

      Prior work in the time (not frequency) domain on event-related potential (ERP) analysis has suggested that the baselining step might cause spurious effects (Delorme, 2023) (although see (Tanner et al., 2016)). We did not perform ERP analysis at any stage. One recent study suggests spurious group differences in the 1/f signal might be driven by an inappropriate dB division baselining method (Gyurkovics et al., 2021), which we did not perform.

      Any effect of our baselining procedure on the FFT spectrum would be below the 1 Hz range, which we did not analyze.  

      Each of the preprocessing steps in the manuscript match pipelines described and published in extensive prior work. We document how multiple aspects of our EEG results replicate prior findings (Supplementary Material S15, S18, S19), reports of other experimenters, groups and locations, validating that our results are robust.

      We therefore reject the claim of methodological flaws in our EEG analyses in the strongest possible terms.

      Quote:

      “(3.5) Problems with EEG preprocessing and analysis:

      - It seems that the authors did not identify bad channels nor address the line noise issue (even a problem if a low pass filter of below-the-line noise was applied).

      As pointed out in the methods and Figure 1, we only analyzed data from two occipital channels, O1 and O2 neither of which were rejected for any participant. Channel rejection was performed for the larger dataset, published elsewhere (Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023). As control sites we added the frontal channels FP1 and Fp2 (see Supplementary Material S14)

      Neither Ossandón et al. (2023) nor Pant et al. (2023) considered frequency ranges above 40 Hz to avoid any possible contamination with line noise. Here, we focused on activity between 0 and 20 Hz, definitely excluding line noise contaminations (Methods, Page 14, Lines 365-367). The low pass filter (FIR, 1-45 Hz) guaranteed that any spill-over effects of line noise would be restricted to frequencies just below the upper cutoff frequency.

      Additionally, a prior version of the analysis used spectrum interpolation to remove line noise; the group differences remained stable (Ossandón et al., 2023). We have reported this analysis in the revised manuscript (Page 14, Lines 364-357).

      Further, both groups were measured in the same lab, making line noise (~ 50 Hz) as an account for the observed group effects in the 1-20 Hz frequency range highly unlikely. Finally, any of the exploratory MRS-EEG correlations would be hard to explain if the EEG parameters would be contaminated with line noise.

      - What was the percentage of segments that needed to be rejected due to the 120μV criteria? This should be reported specifically for EO & EC and controls and patients.

      The mean percentage of 1 second segments rejected for each resting state condition and the percentage of 6.25 long segments rejected in each group for the visual stimulation condition have been added to the revised manuscript (Supplementary Material S10), and referred to in the Methods on Page 14, Lines 372-373).

      - The authors downsampled the data to 60Hz to "to match the stimulation rate". What is the intention of this? Because the subsequent spectral analyses are conflated by this choice (see Nyquist theorem).

      This data were collected as part of a study designed to evoke alpha activity with visual white-noise, which changed in luminance with equal power at all frequencies from 1-60 Hz, restricted by the refresh rate of the monitor on which stimuli were presented (Pant et al., 2023). This paradigm and method was developed by VanRullen and colleagues (Schwenk et al., 2020; VanRullen & MacDonald, 2012), wherein the analysis requires the same sampling rate between the presented frequencies and the EEG data. The downsampling function used here automatically applies an anti-aliasing filter (EEGLAB 2019) .

      - "Subsequently, baseline removal was conducted by subtracting the mean activity across the length of an epoch from every data point." The actual baseline time segment should be specified.

      The time segment was the length of the epoch, that is, 1 second for the resting state conditions and 6.25 seconds for the visual stimulation conditions. This has now been explicitly stated in the revised manuscript (Page 14, Lines 379-380).

      - "We excluded the alpha range (8-14 Hz) for this fit to avoid biasing the results due to documented differences in alpha activity between CC and SC individuals (Bottari et al., 2016; Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023)." This does not really make sense, as the FOOOF algorithm first fits the 1/f slope, for which the alpha activity is not relevant.

      We did not use the FOOOF algorithm/toolbox in this manuscript. As stated in the Methods, we used a 1/f fit to the 1-20 Hz spectrum in the log-log space, and subtracted this fit from the original spectrum to obtain the corrected spectrum. Given the pronounced difference in alpha power between groups (Bottari et al., 2016; Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023), we were concerned it might drive differences in the exponent values. Our analysis pipeline had been adapted from previous publications of our group and other labs (Ossandón et al., 2023; Voytek et al., 2015; Waschke et al., 2017).

      We have conducted the analysis with and without the exclusion of the alpha range, as well as using the FOOOF toolbox both in the 1-20 Hz and 20-40 Hz ranges (Ossandón et al., 2023). The findings of a steeper slope in the 1-20 Hz range as well as lower alpha power in CC vs SC individuals remained stable. In Ossandón et al., the comparison between the piecewise fits and FOOOF fits led the authors to use the former, as it outperformed the FOOOF algorithm for their data.

      - The model fits of the 1/f fitting for EO, EC, and both participant groups should be reported.

      In Figure 3 of the manuscript, we depicted the mean spectra and 1/f fits for each group.

      In the revised manuscript, we added the fit quality metrics (average R<sup>2</sup> values > 0.91 for each group and condition) (Methods Page 15, Lines 395-396; Supplementary Material S11) and additionally show individual subjects’ fits (Supplementary Material S11). “

      (14) The authors mention:

      "The EEG data sets reported here were part of data published earlier (Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023)." Thus, the statement "The group differences for the EEG assessments corresponded to those of a larger sample of CC individuals (n=38) " is a circular argument and should be avoided."

      The authors addressed this comment and adjusted the statement. However, I do not understand, why not the full sample published earlier (Ossandón et al., 2023) was used in the current study?

      The recording of EEG resting state data stated in 2013, while MRS testing could only be set up by the second half of 2019. Moreover, not all subjects who qualify for EEG recording qualify for being scanned (e.g. due to MRI safety, claustrophobia)

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Response to the reviewer #2 (Public review):

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s high evaluation of our paper and helpful comments and suggestions.

      Regarding in vivo Treg homing assay, we did not exclude doublets and dead cells from the analysis of Kaede-expressing Tregs migrated to the aorta, which may affect the results. We described this issue as the limitation of this study in the revised manuscript. Nonetheless, we believe the reliability of our findings because we repeated this experiment three times and obtained similar results.

      There is no evidence to support the clinical relevance of our findings. Future clinical research on this topic is highly desired.

      Response to the reviewer #3 (Public review):

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s high evaluation of our paper and helpful comments and suggestions.

      Despite the controversial role of Th17 cells in atherosclerosis, we understand the possible involvement of Th17 cells and the Th1 cell/Th17 cell balance in lymphoid tissues and aortic lesions in accelerated inflammation and atherosclerosis in Ccr4<sup>-/-</sup>Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice. Although we could not completely evaluate the changes in these immune responses in detail, future study may elucidate interesting mechanisms mediated by Th17 cell responses.

      As the reviewer suggested, we understand that it is necessary to provide in vivo evidence for the Treg suppressive effects on DC activation. Based on the results of in vitro experiments, we described the discussion on the in vivo evidence in the revised manuscript.

      We understand methodological limitations for flow cytometric analysis of immune cells in the aorta and in vivo Treg homing assay. We described this issue as the limitation of this study in the revised manuscript. Regarding in vivo Treg homing assay, we statistically re-analyzed the combined data from multiple experiments and observed a tendency toward reduction in the proportion of CCR4-deficient Kaede-expressing Tregs in the aorta of recipient Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice, though there was no statistically significant difference in the migratory capacity of CCR4-intact or CCR4-deficient Kaede-expressing Tregs. Accordingly, we toned down our claim that CCR4 expression on Tregs plays a critical role in mediating Treg migration to the atherosclerotic aorta under hypercholesterolemia.

      The reviewer requested us to evaluate aortic inflammation in Ccr4<sup>-/-</sup>Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice injected with CCR4-intact or CCR4-deficient Tregs. However, we think that this experiment will provide marginal information because Treg transfer experiments in Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice have already shown the protective role of CCR4 in Tregs against aortic inflammation and early atherosclerosis.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) #1 and #2: CD103 and CD86 expression should be discussed on the text and not only in the response to reviewer.

      In accordance with the reviewer’s suggestion, we added a discussion on the downregulated CD103 expression in peripheral LN Tregs and upregulated CD86 expression on DCs in Ccr4<sup>-/-</sup>Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice in the discussion section in the revised manuscript.

      (2) #5: Authors response is not satisfactory. No gate percentage is shown. As it currently is, the difference in the number of cells shown in the figure could be due to differences in events recorded. Furthermore, the gate strategy is not thorough. Considering the very low frequency of Kaede + cells detected, it is crucial to properly exclude doublets and dead cells.

      Authors reported a dramatic difference in Kaede + Tregs cells in the aorta across experiments. This could be addressed by normalization followed by appropriate statistical analysis (One sample t-test).

      The data shown is not strong enough to conclude that there is a reduced migration to the aorta.

      We understand the importance of reviewer’s suggestion. We described the percentage of Kaede+ Tregs in the aorta of Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice receiving transfer of Kaede-expressing CCR4-intact or CCR4-deficient Tregs in Figure 5I.

      As the reviewer pointed out, we understand that it would be important to properly exclude doublets and dead cells in in vivo Treg homing assay. However, it is difficult for us to resolve this issue because we need to perform the same experiments again which will require a great number of additional mice and substantial amount of time. We deeply regret that these important experimental procedures were not performed. We described this issue as the limitation of this study.

      In accordance with the reviewer’s suggestion, we re-analyzed the combined data from multiple experiments using one-sample t-test. We observed a tendency toward reduction in the proportion of CCR4-deficient Kaede-expressing Tregs in the aorta of recipient Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice, though there was no statistically significant difference in the migratory capacity of CCR4-intact or CCR4-deficient Kaede-expressing Tregs. By modifying the corresponding descriptions in the manuscript, we toned down our claim that CCR4 expression on Tregs plays a critical role in mediating Treg migration to the atherosclerotic aorta under hypercholesterolemia.

      (3) #8: There are still several not shown data

      In accordance with the reviewer’s suggestion, we showed the data on the responses of Tregs and effector memory T cells in 8-week-old wild-type or Ccr4<sup>-/-</sup> mice and Ccr4 mRNA expression in Tregs and non-Tregs from Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> or Ccr4<sup>-/-</sup>Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice in Supplementary Figures 4 and 7.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Issue 1. For future studies, I recommend not omitting viability controls during cell staining. Removal of dead cells and doublets should always be included during the gating strategy to avoid undesirable artefacts, especially when analysing less-represented cell populations. According to your previous report (ref #40), I agree that isotype controls were unnecessary using the same staining protocol. FMO controls should always be included in flow cytometry analysis (not mentioned in the methodology description and ref#40).

      As the reviewer suggested, we understand that it would be important to properly exclude dead cells and doublets and to prepare FMO controls in flow cytometric analysis. We deeply regret that these important experimental procedures were not performed. We described this issue as the limitation of this study.

      (2) Issue 3. Although Th17's role in atherosclerosis remains controversial, the data obtained in this work could provide valuable insights if discussed appropriately. As noted in my public review, I found it noteworthy that ROR γ t+ cells represented around 13% of effector TCD45+CD3+CD4+ lymphocytes in the aorta of Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice while Th1 less than 5% (Fig 4H and F, respectively). I recognise that differences in cell staining sensibility and robustness for different transcription factors may influence these percentages. However, analysing how CCR4 deficiency influences the Th1/TI h17 balance would yield interesting data, similar to what was done for the Th1/Treg ratio.

      Considering the higher proportion of Th17 cells than Th1 or Th2 cells in atherosclerotic aorta, we understand the importance of reviewer’s suggestion. However, we could not evaluate the effect of CCR4 deficiency on the Th1/Th17 balance in aorta because we did not perform flow cytometric analysis of aortic Th1 and Th17 cells in the same mice. Meanwhile, we could examine the Th1/Th17 balance in peripheral lymphoid tissues by flow cytometry. We found a significant increase in the Th1/Th17 ratio in the peripheral LNs of Ccr4<sup>-/-</sup>Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice, while there were no changes in its ratio in the spleen or para-aortic LNs of these mice, which limits the contribution of the Th1/Th17 balance to exacerbated atherosclerosis. We showed these data below.

      Author response image 1.

      (3) Issue 4. I appreciate the authors for sharing data on the flow cytometry analysis of Tregs in para-aortic LNs of Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> and Ccr4<sup>-/-</sup> Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice, which would have been included as a Supplementary figure. These results reinforce the notion that Treg dysfunction in CCR4-deficient mice may not be due to the downregulation of regulatory cell surface receptors.

      We showed the data on the expression of CTLA-4, CD103, and PD1 in Tregs in the para-aortic LNs of Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> and Ccr4<sup>-/-</sup>Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice in Supplementary Figure 8.

      (4) Issue 5. I agree that CD4+ T cell responses are substantially regulated by DCs. While CD80 and CD86 on DC primarily serve as costimulatory signals for T-cell activation, cytokines secreted by DCs are primordial signals for determining the differentiation phenotype of effector Th cells. Since the analysis of DC phenotype in lymphoid tissues of Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> and Ccr4<sup>-/-</sup> Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice could not be addressed in this study, it is not possible to differentiate which processes may be mainly affected by CCR4-deficiency during CD4+ T cell activation. In this scenario, and considering in vitro studies, the results suggest a possible role of CCR4 in controlling the extent of activation of CD4+T cells rather than shifting the CD4+T cell differentiation profile in peripheral lymphoid tissues, where a predominant Th1 profile was already established in Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice. Therefore, I advise caution when concluding about shifts in CD4+ T cell responses.

      We thank the reviewer for providing us thoughtful comments. As the reviewer pointed out, we understand that we should carefully interpret the mechanisms for the shift of CD4+ T cell responses by CCR4 deficiency.

      (5) Regarding migration studies in the revised manuscript. I fully understand that Treg transference assays are challenging. The results do not suggest that CCR4 was critical for Treg migration to lymphoid tissues in the conditions assayed. Concerning migration to the aorta, I found the results inconclusive since the authors mention that: i) there was a dramatic difference in the absolute numbers of Kaede-expressing Tregs that migrated to the aorta impairing statistical analysis; ii) the number of Kaede-expressing Tregs that migrated to the aorta was extremely low; iii) dead cells and doublets were not removed in the flow cytometry analysis. In this context, I do not agree with the following statements and recommend revising them:

      - "CCR4 deficiency in Tregs impaired their migration to the atherosclerotic aorta" (lines 36-7),

      - "…we found a significant reduction in the proportion of CCR4 deficient Kaede-expressing Tregs in the aorta of recipient Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice" (lines 356-7),

      - "CCR4 expression on Tregs regulates the development of early atherosclerosis by....... mediating Treg migration to the atherosclerotic aorta" (lines 409-411),

      - "…we found that CCR4 expression on Tregs is critical for regulating atherosclerosis by mediating their migration to the atherosclerotic aorta" (lines 437-438),

      - "CCR4 protects against early atherosclerosis by mediating Treg migration to the aorta.... (lines 464-465),

      - "We showed that CCR4 expression on Tregs is critical for ...... mediating Treg migration to the atherosclerotic aorta" (503-505).

      We understand the importance of the reviewer’s suggestion. We described this issue as the limitation of this study. In accordance with the reviewer’s suggestion, we modified the above descriptions and toned down our claim that CCR4 expression on Tregs plays a critical role in mediating Treg migration to the atherosclerotic aorta under hypercholesterolemia.

      (6) Line 206: Mention the increased expression of CD86 by DCs

      We mentioned this result in the revised manuscript. We also added a discussion on the upregulated CD86 expression on DCs in Ccr4<sup>-/-</sup>Apoe<sup>-/-</sup> mice in the discussion section in the revised manuscript.

      (7) Lines 304-305. According to Fig 4F-H, a selective accumulation of Th1 cells seems to have occurred only in the aorta, coinciding with a higher Th1/Treg ratio. No selective accumulation of Th1 cells was observed in para-aortic lymph nodes. These results could be clarified.

      We modified the above description in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Comment: The fact that there are Arid1a transcripts that escape the Cre system in the Arid1a KO mouse model might difficult the interpretation of the data. The phenotype of the Arid1a knockout is probably masked by the fact that many of the sequencing techniques used here are done on a heterogeneous population of knockout and wild type spermatocytes. In relation to this, I think that the use of the term "pachytene arrest" might be overstated, since this is not the phenotype truly observed. Knockout mice produce sperm, and probably litters, although a full description of the subfertility phenotype is lacking, along with identification of the stage at which cell death is happening by detection of apoptosis.

      Response: As the reviewer indicates, we did not observe a complete arrest at Pachynema. In fact, the histology shows the presence of spermatids and sperm in seminiferous tubules and epididymides (Fig. Sup. 3). However, our data argue that the wild-type haploid gametes produced were derived from spermatocyte precursors that have likely escaped Cre mediated activity (Fig. Sup. 4). Furthermore, diplotene and metaphase-I spermatocytes lacking ARID1A protein by IF were undetectable in the Arid1acKO testes (Fig. S4B). Therefore, although we do not demonstrate a strict pachytene arrest, it is reasonable to conclude that ARID1A is necessary to progress beyond pachynema. We have revised the manuscript to reflect this point (Abstract lines 17,18; Results lines 153,154)

      Comment: It is clear from this work that ARID1a is part of the protein network that contributes to silencing of the sex chromosomes. However, it is challenging to understand the timing of the role of ARID1a in the context of the well-known DDR pathways that have been described for MSCI.

      Response: With respect to the comment on the lack of clarity as to which stage of meiosis we observe cell death, our data do suggest that it is reasonable to conclude that mutant spermatocytes (ARID1A-) undergo cell death at pachynema given their inability to execute MSCI, which is a well-established phenotype.

      Comment: Staining of chromosome spreads with Arid1a antibody showed localization at the sex chromosomes by diplonema; however, analysis of gene expression in Arid1a KO was performed on pachytene spermatocytes. Therefore, is not very clear how the chromatin remodeling activity of Arid1a in diplonema is affecting gene expression of a previous stage. CUTnRUN showed that ARID1a is present at the sex chromatin in earlier stages, leading to hypothesize that immunofluorescence with ARID1a antibody might not reflect ARID1a real localization.

      Response: It is unclear what the reviewer means about not understanding how ARID1A activity at diplonema affects gene expression at earlier stages. Our interpretations were not based solely on the observation of ARID1A associations with the XY body at diplonema. In fact, mRNA expression and CUT&RUN analyses were performed on pachytene-enriched populations. ARID1A's association with the XY body is not exclusive to diplonema. Based on both CUT&RUN and IF data, ARID1A associates with XY chromatin as early as pachynema. Only at late diplonema did we observe ARID1A hyperaccumulation on the XY body by IF.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Comment: The inefficient deletion of ARID1A in this mouse model does not allow any detailed analysis in a quantitative manner.

      Response: As explained in our response to these comments in the first revision, we respectfully disagree with this reviewer’s conclusions. We have been quantitative by co-staining for ARID1A, ensuring that we can score mutant pachytene spermatocytes from escapers. Additionally, we provide data to show the efficiency of ARID1A loss in the purified pachytene populations sampled in our genomic assays.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Comment: The data demonstrate that the mutant cells fail to progress past pachytene, although it is unclear whether this specifically reflects pachytene arrest, as accumulation in other stages of Prophase also is suggested by the data in Table 1. The western blot showing ARID1A expression in WT vs. cKO spermatocytes (Fig. S2) is supportive of the cKO model but raises some questions. The blot shows many bands that are at lower intensity in the cKO, at MWs from 100-250kDa. The text and accompanying figure legend have limited information. Are the various bands with reduced expression different isoforms of ARID1A, or something else? What is the loading control 'NCL'? How was quantification done given the variation in signal across a large range of MWs?

      Response: The loading control is Nucleolin. With respect to the other bands in the range of 100-250 kDa, it is difficult to say whether they represent ARID1A isoforms. The Uniprot entry for Mouse ARID1A only indicates a large mol. wt sequence of ~242 kDa; therefore, the band corresponding to that size was quantified. There is no evidence to suggest that lower molecular weight isoforms may be translated. Although speculative, it is possible that the lower molecular weight bands represent proteolytic/proteasomal degradation products or products of antibody non-specificity. These points are addressed in the revised manuscript (Legend to Fig S2, lines 926-931). Blots were scanned on a LI-COR Odyssey CLx imager and viewed and quantified using Image Studio Version 5.2.5 (Methods, lines 640-642).

      Comment: An additional weakness relates to how the authors describe the relationship between ARID1A and DNA damage response (DDR) signaling. The authors don't see defects in a few DDR markers in ARID1A CKO cells (including a low-resolution assessment of ATR), suggesting that ARID1A may not be required for meiotic DDR signaling. However, as previously noted the data do not rule out the possibility that ARID1A is downstream of DDR signaling and the authors even indicate that "it is reasonable to hypothesize that DDR signaling might recruit BAF-A to the sex chromosomes (lines 509-510)." It therefore is difficult to understand why the authors continue to state that "...the mechanisms underlying ARID1A-mediated repression of the sex-linked transcription are mutually exclusive to DDR pathways regulating sex body formation" (p. 8) and that "BAF-A-mediated transcriptional repression of the sex chromosomes occurs independently of DDR signaling" (p. 16). The data provided do not justify these conclusions, as a role for DDR signaling upstream of ARID1A would mean that these mechanisms are not mutually exclusive or independent of one another.

      Response: The reviewer’s argument is reasonable, and we have made the recommended changes (Results, lines 212-215; Discussion, lines 499-500).

      Comment: A final comment relates to the impacts of ARID1A loss on DMC1 focus formation and the interesting observation of reduced sex chromosome association by DMC1. The authors additionally assess the related recombinase RAD51 and suggest that it is unaffected by ARID1A loss. However, only a single image of RAD51 staining in the cKO is provided (Fig. S11) and there are no associated quantitative data provided. The data are suggestive but it would be appropriate to add a qualifier to the conclusion regarding RAD51 in the discussion which states that "...loss of ARID1a decreases DMC1 foci on the XY chromosomes without affecting RAD51" given that the provided RAD51 data are not rigorous. In the long-term it also would be interesting to quantitatively examine DMC1 and RAD51 focus formation on autosomes as well.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer’s comment and have made the recommended changes (Discussion, lines 518-519).

      Response to non-public recommendations

      Reviewer 2:

      Comment: Meiotic arrest is usually judged based on testicular phenotypes. If mutant testes do not have any haploid spermatids, we can conclude that meiotic arrest is a phenotype. In this case, mutant testes have haploid spermatids and are fertile. The authors cannot conclude meiotic arrest. The mutant cells appear to undergo cell death in the pachytene stage, but the authors cannot say "meiotic arrest."

      Response: We disagree with this comment. By IF, we see that ~70% of the spermatocytes have deleted ARID1A. Furthermore, we never observed diplotene spermatocytes that lacked ARID1A. The conclusion that the absence of ARID1A results in a pachynema arrest and that the escapers produce the haploid spermatids is firm.

      Comment: Fig. S2 and S3 have wrong figure legends.

      Response: The figure legends for Fig. S2 and S3 are correct.

      Comment: The authors do not appear to evaluate independent mice for scoring (the result is about 74% deletion above, Table S1). Sup S2: how many independent mice did the authors examine?

      Response:These were Sta-Put purified fractions obtained from 14-15 WT and mutant mice. It is difficult to isolate pachytene spermatocytes by Sta-Put at the required purity in sufficient yields using one mouse at a time. We used three technical replicates to quantify the band intensity, and the error bars represent the standard error of the mean (S.E.M) of the band intensity.

      Comment: Comparison of cKO and wild-type littermate yielded nearly identical results (Avg total conc WT = 32.65 M/m; Avg total conc cKO = 32.06 M/ml)". This sounds like a negative result (i.e., no difference between WT and cKO).

      Response: This is correct. There is no difference between Arid1aWT and Arid1aCKO sperm production. This is because wild-type haploid gametes produced were derived from spermatocyte precursors that have escaped Cre-mediated activity (Fig. S4). These data merely serve to highlight an inherent caveat of our conditional knockout model and are not intended to support the main conclusion that ARID1A is necessary for pachytene progression.

      Comment: The authors now admit ~ 70 % efficiency in deletion, and the authors did not show the purity of these samples. If the purity of pachytene spermatocytes is ~ 80%, the real proportion of mutant cells can be ~ 56%. It is very difficult to interpret the data.

      Response: The original submission did refer to inefficient Cre-induced recombination. The reviewer asked for the % efficiency, which was provided in the revised version. Also, please refer to Fig. S2, where Western blot analysis demonstrates a significant loss of ARID1A protein levels in CKO relative to WT pachytene spermatocyte populations that were used for CUT&RUN data generation.

      Comment: The authors should not use the other study to justify their own data. The H3.3 ChIP-seq data in the NAR paper detected clear peaks on autosomes. However, in this study, as shown in Fig. S7A, the authors detected only 4 peaks on autosomes based on MACS2 peak calling. This must be a failed experiment. Also, S7A appears to have labeling errors.

      Response: I believe the reviewer is referring to supplementary figure 8A. Here, it is not clear which labeling errors the reviewer is referring to. In the wild type, the identified peaks were overwhelmingly sex-linked intergenic sites. This is consistent with the fact that H3.3 is hyper-accumulated on the sex chromosomes at pachynema.

      The authors of the NAR paper did not perform a peak-calling analysis using MACS2 or any other peak-calling algorithm. They merely compared the coverage of H3.3 relative to input. Therefore, it is not clear on what basis the reviewer says that the NAR paper identified autosomal peaks. Their H3.3 signal appears widely distributed over a 6 kb window centered at the TSS of autosomal genes, which, compared to input, appears enriched. Our data clearly demonstrates a less noisy and narrower window of H3.3 enrichment at autosomal TSSs in WT pachytene spermatocytes, albeit at levels lower than that seen in CKO pachytene spermatocytes (Fig S8B and see data copied below for each individual replicate). Moreover, the lack of peaks does not mean that there was an absence of H3.3 at these autosomal TSSs (Supp. Fig. S8B). Therefore, we disagree with the reviewer’s comment that the H3.3 CUT&RUN was a failed experiment.

      Author response image 1.

      H3.3 Occupancy at genes mis-regulated in the absence of ARID1A

      Comment: If the author wishes to study the function of ARID2 in spermatogenesis, they may need to try other cre-lines to have more robust phenotypes, and all analyses must be redone using a mouse model with efficient deletion of ARID2.

      Response: As noted, we chose Stra8-Cre to conditionally knockout Arid1a because ARID1A is haploinsufficient during embryonic development. The lack of Cre expression in the maternal germline allows for transmission of the floxed allele, allowing for the experiments to progress.

      Comment: The inefficient deletion of ARID1A in this mouse model does not allow any detailed analysis in a quantitative manner.

      Response: In many experiments, we have been quantitative when possible by co-staining for ARID1A, ensuring that we can score mutant pachytene spermatocytes from escapers. Additionally, we provide data to show the efficiency of ARID1A loss in the purified pachytene populations sampled in our genomic assays.

      Reviewer 3:

      Comment: The Methods section refers to antibodies as being in Supplementary Table 3, but the table is labeled as Supplementary Table 2.

      Response: This has been corrected

    2. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1

      Comment 1: It is worth mentioning that the authors show that there are Arid1a transcripts that escape the Cre system. This might mask the phenotype of the Arid1a knockout, given that many sequencing techniques used here are done on a heterogeneous population of knockout and wild-type spermatocytes.

      Response: The proportions of undifferentiated spermatogonia (PLZF+) with detectable (ARID1A+) and non-detectable (ARID1A=) levels of ARID1A protein by immunostaining on testes cryosections obtained from 1-month old Arid1afl/fl (control) and Arid1acKO (CKO) males were 74% ARID1A negative (CKO) and 26% ARID1A positive (CKO) as compared to 95% ARID1A positive and 5% ARID1A negative in WT controls. The manuscript includes these data (page 5, lines 114-116). Furthermore, Western blot analysis of STA-Put purified pachytene WT and mutant spermatocytes showed significantly reduced levels of ARID1A protein in mutant cells (95% reduction). The manuscript has added these data (page 5, line 116 and Fig. S2).

      Comment 2: In relation to this, I think that the use of the term "pachytene arrest" might be overstated, since this is not the phenotype truly observed (these mice produce sperm).

      Response: Based on the profiling of prophase-I spermatocytes by co-staining for SYCP3 and ARID1A, we observed a marked reduction in mid-late pachytene spermatocytes that lacked ARID1A, indicating a failure to progress beyond pachynema in the absence of ARID1A (Table 1 in manuscript). Furthermore, we were unable to detect diplotene spermatocytes lacking ARID1A protein. Haploid spermatid populations isolated from Arid1acKO males appeared normal, expressing the wild-type allele, suggesting that they originated from spermatocytes that failed to undergo efficient Cre recombination (Fig. S3). Arid1acKO also produces viable sperm at a level equal to their wild-type controls (see page 5, lines 123-126). It is reasonable to conclude that the absence of ARID1A results in a pachynema arrest and that the viable sperm are from escapers. We cannot make any conclusions regarding the requirement of ARID1A for progression beyond pachynema.

      Comment 3: ARID1A is present throughout prophase I, and it might have pre-MSCI roles that impact earlier stages of Meiosis I, and cell death might be happening in these earlier stages too.

      Response: We did not observe an effect on the frequency of leptotene and zygotene spermatocytes lacking ARID1A. There appeared to be an accumulation of these prophase-I populations in response to the loss of ARID1A, consistent with a failure in progression beyond pachynema in the mutants (Table 1 in the manuscript).

      Additionally, we did not detect any significant difference in the numbers of undifferentiated spermatogonia expressing PLZF (also known as ZBTB16) in 1-month-old Arid1acKO relative to Arid1afl/fl males (see Table below, now included in the manuscript as supplemental Table 1). Therefore, the Arid1a conditional knockouts generated with a Stra8-Cre did not appear to impact earlier stages of spermatogenesis. However, potential roles of ARID1A early in spermatogenesis might be revealed using a more efficient and earlier-acting germline Cre transgene. In this case, an inducible Cre transgene would be needed, given the haploinsufficiency associated with Arid1a. Such haploinsufficiency was why we used the Stra8-Cre. The lack of Cre expression in the female germline allowed the transmission of the floxed allele maternally.

      Author response table 1.

      Comment 4: Overall, the research presented here is solid, adds new knowledge on how sex chromatin is silenced during meiosis, and has generated relevant databases for the field.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this comment.

      Reviewer 2

      Comment 1: The conditional deletion mouse model of ARIDA using Stra8-cre showed inefficient deletion; spermatogenesis did not appear to be severely compromised in the mutants. Using this data, the authors claimed that meiotic arrest occurs in the mutants. This is obviously a misinterpretation.

      Response: As stated in response to Reviewer 1, testes cryosections obtained from 1-month-old control and mutant males showed that 74% are ARID1A negative (CKO) and 26% ARID1A positive (CKO) as compared to 95% ARID1A positive and 5% ARID1A negative in WT controls (page 5, lines 114-116). This difference is dramatic. Western blot analysis of STA-Put purified pachytene WT and mutant spermatocytes also showed a significant reduction of ARID1A protein in mutant cells (Fig. S2). We observed a marked decrease in mid-late pachytene spermatocytes that lacked ARID1A, indicating a failure to progress beyond pachynema without ARID1A (Table 1 from the manuscript). Furthermore, we were unable to detect any diplotene spermatocytes lacking ARID1A protein. These data suggest that the haploid spermatids originated from spermatocytes that failed to undergo efficient Cre recombination (Fig. S3). Comparison of cKO and wild-type littermate yielded nearly identical results (Avg total conc WT = 32.65 M/m; Avg total conc cKO = 32.06 M/ml), indicating that the cKO’s produce viable sperm at a level equal to their wild-type controls. Taken together, the conclusion that the absence of ARID1A results in a pachynema arrest and that the escapers produce the haploid spermatids is firm. By IF, we see that ~70% of the spermatocytes have deleted ARID1A. Therefore, we disagree with the reviewer’s comments that “spermatogenesis did not appear to be severely compromised in the mutants”.

      Comment 2: In the later parts, the authors performed next-gen analyses, including ATAC-seq and H3.3 CUT&RUN, using the isolated cells from the mutant mice. However, with this inefficient deletion, most cells isolated from the mutant mice appeared not to undergo Cre-mediated recombination. Therefore, these experiments do not tell any conclusion pertinent to the Arid1a mutation.

      Response: We agree that the ATAC-seq and CUT&RUN data were derived from a mixed population of pachytene spermatocytes consisting of mutants and, to a much lesser extent, escapers. As stated, based on our previous study (Menon et al., 2021, Nat. Commun., PMID: 34772938) and additional analyses in this current work, the undifferentiated spermatogonia lacking ARID1A indicates that Stra8-Cre is ~ 70% efficient. With this efficiency, we can detect striking changes in H3.3 occupancy and chromatin accessibility in the mutants relative to wild-type spermatocytes.

      Comment 3: Furthermore, many of the later parts of this study focus on the analysis of H3.3 CUT&RUN. However, Fig. S7 clearly suggests that the H3.3 CUT&RUN experiment in the wild-type simply failed. Thus, none of the analyses using the H3.3 CUT&RUN data can be interpreted.

      Response: We would like to draw the attention of the reviewer to a recent study (Fointane et al., 2022, NAR, PMID: 35766398) where the authors observed an identical X chromosome-wide spreading of H3.3 in mouse meiotic cells by ChIP-seq. The genomic distribution matches the microscopic observation of H3.3 coating of the sex chromosomes. Therefore, in normal spermatocytes, H3.3 distribution is pervasive across the X chromosome, with very few peaks observed in intergenic regions. Additionally, we detected H3.3 enrichment at TSSs of ARID1A-regulated autosomal genes in wild-type pachytene spermatocytes, albeit reduced relative to the mutants, indicating that the H3.3 CUT&RUN worked. For these reasons, we do not agree with the reviewer’s assessment that the H3.3 CUT&RUN experiment failed in the wild type.

      Comment 4: If the author wishes to study the function of ARID2 in spermatogenesis, they may need to try other cre-lines to have more robust phenotypes, and all analyses must be redone using a mouse model with efficient deletion of ARID2.

      Response: As noted, we chose Stra8-Cre to conditionally knockout Arid1a because ARID1A is haploinsufficient during embryonic development. The lack of Cre expression in the maternal germline allows for transmission of the floxed allele, allowing for the experiments to progress.

      Reviewer 3

      Comment 1: A challenge with the author's CKO model is the incomplete efficiency of ARID1A loss, due to incomplete CRE-mediated deletion. The authors effectively work around this issue, but they don't state specifically what percentage of CKO cells lack ARID1A staining. This information should be added.

      Response: Our data indicate that Stra8-Cre is ~ 70% efficient. This information has been added.

      Comment 2: They refer to cells that retain ARID1A staining in CKO testes as 'internal controls' but this reviewer finds that label inappropriate.

      Response: We have dropped ‘internal controls’ and used ‘escapers’ instead.

      Comment 3: Although some cells that retain ARID1A won't have undergone CRE-mediated excision, others may have excised but possibly have delayed kinetics of deletion or ARID1A RNA/protein turnover and loss. Such cells likely have partial ARID1A depletion to different extents and, therefore, in some cases, are no longer wild-type. In subsequent figures in which co-staining for ARID1A is done, it would be appropriate for the authors to specify if they are quantifying all cells from CKO testes, or only those that lack ARID1A staining.

      Response: We were unable to detect any diplotene spermatocytes lacking ARID1A protein. The data suggest that the haploid spermatids originated from spermatocytes that failed to undergo efficient Cre recombination (Fig. S3). Thus, we conclude that the absence of ARID1A results in a pachynema arrest and that the escapers produce haploid spermatids. In figures displaying quantification data, we indicate whether the quantification was performed on spermatocytes lacking or containing ARID1A from cKO testes. By IF, we see that ~70% of the spermatocytes have deleted ARID1A.

      Comment 4: The authors don't see defects in a few DDR markers in ARID1A CKO cells and conclude that the role of ARID1A in silencing is 'mutually exclusive to DDR pathways' (p 12) and 'occurs independently of DDR signaling' (p30). The data suggest that ARID1A may not be required for DDR signaling, but do not rule out the possibility that ARID1A is downstream of DDR signaling (and the authors even hypothesize this on p30). The data provided do not justify the conclusion that ARID1A acts independently of DDR signaling.

      associated DDR factors such as: H2Ax; ATR; and MDC1. We observed an abnormal persistence of elongating RNA polymerase II on the mutant XY body in response to the loss of ARID1A, emphasizing its role in the transcriptional repression of the XY during pachynema. The loss of ARID1A results in a failure to silence sex-linked genes and does so in the presence of DDR signaling factors in the XY body. As the reviewer notes, we highlighted the possibility that DDR pathways might influence ARID1A recruitment to the XY, evidenced by the hyperaccumulation of ARID1A on the sex body late in diplonema. Therefore, whether ARID1A is dependent on DDR signaling remains an open question.

      Comment 5: After observing no changes in levels or localization of H3.3 chaperones, the authors conclude that 'ARID1A impacts H3.3 accumulation on the sex chromosomes without affecting its expression or incorporation during pachynema.' It's not clear to this reviewer what the authors mean by this. Aside from the issue of not having tested DAXX or HIRA activity, are they suggesting that some other process besides altered incorporation leads to H3.3 accumulation, and if so, what process would that be?

      Response: The loss of ARID1A might result in an abnormal redistribution of DAXX or HIRA on the XY, potentially contributing to the defects in H3.3 accumulation and canonical H3.1/3.2 eviction on the XY. While speculative at this point, it is also possible that the persistence of elongating RNAPII in response to the loss of ARID1A might prevent the sex chromosome-wide coating of H3.3. Addressing the mechanism underlying ARID1A-governed H3.3 accumulation on the XY body remains a topic for future investigation.

      Comment 6: The authors find an interesting connection between certain regions that gained chromatin accessibility after ARID1A loss (clusters G1 and G3) and the presence of the PRDM9 sequence motif. The G1 and G3 clusters also show DMC1 occupancy and H3K4me3 enrichment. However, an additional cluster with gained accessibility (G4) also shows DMC1 occupancy and H3K4me3 enrichment but has modest H3.3 accumulation. The paper would benefit for additional discussion about the G4 cluster (which encompasses 960 peak calls). Is there any enrichment of PRDM9 sites in G4? If H3.3 exclusion governs meiotic DSBs, how does cluster G4 fit into the model?

      Response: We agree that, compared to G1+G3, cluster G4 shows an insignificant increase in H3.3 occupancy in the absence of ARID1A (Figure 6B). The plot profile associated with the heatmap confirms this result (Figure 6B). Therefore, cluster G4 is very distinct in its chromatin composition from G1+G3 upon the loss of ARID1A and, as such, is not inconsistent with our model of H3.3 antagonism with DSB sites. Additionally, we did not observe an enrichment of PRDM9 sites in G4. Since G4 does not display similar dynamics in H3.3 occupancy to G1+G3, DMC1 association might not be perturbed at G4 in response to the loss of ARID1A. Future studies will be required to determine the genomic associations of DMC1 and H3K4me3 in response to the loss of ARID1A.

      Comment 7: The impacts of ARID1A loss on DMC1 focus formation (reduced sex chromosome association) are very interesting and also raise additional questions. Are DMC1 foci on autosomes also affected during pachynema? The corresponding lack of apparent effect on RAD51 implies that breaks are still made and resected, enabling RAD51 filament formation. A more thorough quantitative assessment of RAD51 focus formation will be interesting in the long run, enabling determination of the number of break sites and the kinetics of repair, which the authors suggest is perturbed by ARID1A loss but doesn't directly test. It isn't clear how a nucleosomal factor (H3.3) would influence loading of recombinases onto ssDNA, especially if the alteration is not at the level of resection and ssDNA formation. Additional discussion of this point is warranted. Lastly, there currently are various notions for the interplay between RAD51 and DMC1 in filament formation and break repair, and brief discussion of this area and the implications of the new findings from the ARID1A CKO would strengthen the paper further.

      Response: The impact of H3.3 on the loading of recombinases might be an indirect consequence of ARID1A-governed sex-linked transcriptional repression. In a recent study, Alexander et al. (Nat. Commun, 2023, PMID: 36990976) showed that transcriptional activity and meiotic recombination are spatially compartmentalized during meiosis. Therefore, the persistence of elongating RNA polymerase II on a sex body depleted for H3.3 in the absence of ARID1A might contribute to the defect in DMC1 association. RAD51 and DMC1 are known to bind ssDNA at PRDM9/SPO11 designated DSB hotspots. However, these recombinases occupy unique domains. DMC1 localizes nearest the DSB breakpoint, promoting strand exchange, whereas RAD51 is further away (Hinch et al., PMID32610038). We show that loss of Arid1a decreases DMC1 foci on the XY chromosomes without affecting RAD51. These findings indicate that BAF-A plays a role in the loading and/or retention of DMC1 to the XY chromosomes. This information has been added to the discussion.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The additional data included in this revision nicely strengthens the major claim.

      I apologize that my comment about K+ concentration in the prior review was unclear. The cryoEM structure of KCNQ1 with S4 in the resting state was obtained with lowered K+ relative to the active state. Throughout the results and discussion it seems implied that the change in voltage sensor state is somehow causative of the change in selectivity filter state while the paper that identified the structures attributes the change in selectivity filter state not to voltage sensors, but to the change in [K+] between the 2 structures. Unless there is a flaw in my understanding of the conditions in which the selectivity filter structures used in modeling were generated, it seems misleading to ignore the change in [K+] when referring to the activated vs resting or up vs down structures. My understanding is that the closed conformation adopted in the resting/low [K+] is similar to that observed in low [K+] previously and is more commonly associated with [K+]-dependent inactivation, not resulting from voltage sensor deactivation as implied here. The original article presenting the low [K+] structure also suggests this. When discussing conformational changes in the selectivity filter, I strongly suggest referring to these structures as activated/high [K+] vs resting/low [K+] or something similar, as the [K+] concentration is a salient variable.

      There seems to be some major confusion here and we will try to explain how we think. Note that in the Mandela and MacKinnon paper, there is no significant difference in the amino acid positions in the selectivity filter between low and high K+ when S4 is in the activated position (See Mandala and Mackinnon, PNAS Suppl. Fig S5 C and D). There are only fewer K+ in the selectivity filter in low K+. So, the structure with the distorted selectivity filter is not due to low K+ by itself. Note that there is no real difference between macroscopic currents recorded in low and high K+ solutions (except what is expected from changes in driving force) for KCNQ1/KCNE1 channels (Larsen et al., Bioph J 2011), suggesting that low K+ do not promote the non-conductive state (Figure 1). We now include a section in the Discussion about high/low K+ in the structures and the absence of effects of K+ on the function of KCNQ1/KCNE1 channels.

      Author response image 1.

      Macroscopic KCNQ1/KCNE1 currents recorded in different K+ conditions.  Note that there is no difference between current recorded in low K+ (2 mM) conditions and high (96 mM) K+ conditions (n=3 oocytes). Currents were normalized in respect to high K+.

      Note also that, in the previous version of the manuscript, we did not propose that the position of S4 is what determines the state of the selectivity filter. We only reported that the CryoEM structure with S4 resting shows a distorted selectivity filter. It seems like our text confused the reviewer to think that we proposed that S4 determines the state of the selectivity filter, when we did not propose this earlier. We previously did not want to speculate too much about this, but we have now included a section in the Discussion to make our view clear in light of the confusion of the reviewers.

      It is clear from our data that the majority of sweeps are empty (which we assume is with S4 up), suggesting that the selectivity filter can be (and is in the majority of sweeps) in the non-conducting state even with S4 up.  We think that the selectivity filter switches between a non-conductive and a conductive conformation both with S4 down and with S4 up. The cryoEM structure in low K+ and S4 down just happened to catch the non-conductive state of the selectivity filter.  We have now added a section in the Discussion to clarify all this and explain how we think it works.

      However, S4 in the active conformation seems to stabilize the conductive conformation of the selectivity filter, because during long pulses the channel seems to stay open once opened (See Suppl Fig S2). So, one possibility is that the selectivity filter goes more readily into the non-conductive state when S4 is down (and maybe, or not, low K+ plays a role) and then when S4 moves up the selectivity filter sometimes recovers into the conductive state and stays there. We now have included a section in the Discussion to present our view. Since this whole discussion was initiated and pushed by the reviewer, we hope that the reviewers will not demand more data to support these ideas. We think that this addition makes sense since other readers might have the same questions and ideas as the reviewer, and we would like to prevent any confusion about this topic.

      Figure 1

      It remains unclear in the manuscript itself what "control" refers to. Are control patched the same patches that later receive LG?

      Yes, the control means the same patch before LG. We now indicate that in legends and text throughout.

      Supplementary Figure S1

      Unclear if any changes occur after addition of LG in left panel and if the LG data on right is paired in any way to data on left.

      Yes, in all cases the left and right panel in all figures are from the same patch. We now indicate that in legends and text throughout.

      The letter p is used both to represent open probability open probability from the all-point amplitude histogram and as a p-value statistical probability indicator sometime lower case, sometimes upper case. This was confusing.

      We have now exclusively use lower case p for statistical probability and Po for open probability.

      "This indicates that mutations of residues in the more intracellular region of the selectivity filter do not affect the Gmax increases and that the interactions that stabilize the channel involve only residues located near the external region part of the selectivity filter. "

      Seems too strongly worded, it remains possible that mutations of other residues in the more intracellular region of the selectivity filter could affect the Gmax increases.

      We have changed the text to: "Mutations of residues in the more intracellular region of the selectivity filter do not affect the Gmax increases, as if the interactions that stabilize the channel involve residues located near the external region part of the selectivity filter. "

      Supplementary Figure S7

      Please report Boltzmann fit parameters. What are "normalized" uA?

      We removed the uA, which was mistakenly inserted. The lines in the graphs are just lines connecting the dots and not Boltzmann fits, since we don’t have saturating curves in all panels to make unique fits.

      "We have previously shown that the effects of PUFAs on IKs channels involve the binding of PUFAs to two independent sites." Was binding to the sites actually shown? Suggest changing to: "We have previously proposed models in which the effects of PUFAs..."

      We have now changed this as the Reviewer suggested: " We have previously proposed models in which the effects of PUFAs on IKs channels involve the binding of PUFAs to two independent sites."

      Statistics used not always clear. Methods refer to multiple statistical tests but it is not clear which is used when.

      We use two different tests and it is now explained in figure legends when either was used.

      n values confusing. Sometimes # of sweeps used as n. Sometimes # patches used as n. In one instance "The average current during the single channel sweeps was increased by 2.3 {plus minus} 0.33 times (n = 4 patches, p =0.0006)" ...this sems a low p value for this n=4 sample?

      We have now more clearly indicated what n stands for in each case. There was an extra 0 in the p value, so now it is p = 0.006. Thanks for catching that error.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I still have some comments for the revised manuscript.

      (1) (From the previous minor point #6) Since D317E and T309S did not show statistical significance in Figure 5A, the sentences such as "This data shows that Y315 and D317 are necessary for the ability of Lin-Glycine to increase Gmax" or "the effect of Lin-Glycine on Gmax of the KCNQ1/KCNE1 mutant was noticeably reduced compared to the WT channel showing the this residue contributes to the Gmax effect (Figure 5A)." may need to be toned down. Alternatively, I suggest the authors refer to Supplementary Figure S7 to confirm that Y315 and D317 are critical for increasing Gmax.

      We have redone the analysis and statistical evaluation in Fig 5. We no use the more appropriate value of the fitted Gmax (which use the whole dose response curve instead of only the 20 mM value) in the statistical evaluation and now Y315F and D317E are statistically different from wt.

      (2) Supplementary Fig. S1. All control diary plots include the green arrows to indicate the timing of lin-glycine (LG) application. It is a bit confusing why they are included. Is it to show that LG application did not have an immediate effect? Are the LG-free plots not available?

      Not sure what the Reviewer is asking about? In the previous review round the Reviewers asked specifically for this. The arrow shows when LG was applied and the plot on the right shows the effect of LG from the same patch.

      (3) The legend to Supplementary Figure S4, "The side chain of residues ... are highlighted as sticks and colored based on the atomic displacement values, from white to blue to red on a scale of 0 to 9 Å." They look mostly blue (or light blue). Which one is colored white? It might be better to use a different color code. It would also be nice to link the color code to the colors of Supplementary Figure S5, which currently uses a single color.

      We have removed “from white to blue to red on a scale of 0 to 9 Å” and instead now include a color scale directly in Fig S4 to show how much each atom moved based on the color.

      We feel it is not necessary to include color in Fig S5 since the scale of how much each atom moves is shown on the y axis.

      (4) Add unit (pA) to the y-axis of Supplementary Figure S2.

      pA has been added.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Some issues on how data support conclusions are identified. Further justifications are suggested.

      186: “The decrease in first latency is most likely due to an effect of Lin-Glycine on Site I in the VSD and related to the shift in voltage dependence caused by Lin-Glycine." The results in Fig S1B do not seem to support this statement since the mutation Y315F in the pore helix seemed to have eliminated the effect of Lin-Glycine in reducing first latency. The authors may want to show that a mutation that eliminating Site I would eliminate the effect of Lin-Glycine on first latency. On the other hand, it will be also interesting to examine if another pore mutation, such as P320L (Fig 5) also reduce the effect of Lin-Glycine on first latency.

      These experiments are very hard and laborious, and we feel these are outside the scope of this paper which focuses on Site II and the mechanism of increasing Gmax. Further studies of the voltage shift and latency will have to be for a future study.

      The mutation D317E did not affect the effect of Lin-Glycine on Gmax significantly (Fig 5A, and Fig S7F comparing with Fig S7A), but the authors conclude that D317 is important for Lin-Glycine association. This conclusion needs a better justification.

      We have redone the analysis and statistical evaluation in Fig 5. We no use the more appropriate value of the fitted Gmax (which use the whole dose response curve instead of only the 20 mM value) in the statistical evaluation and now D317E is statistically different from wt

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This useful manuscript challenges the utility of current paradigms for estimating brain-age with magnetic resonance imaging measures, but presents inadequate evidence to support the suggestion that an alternative approach focused on predicting cognition is more useful. The paper would benefit from a clearer explication of the methods and a more critical evaluation of the conceptual basis of the different models. This work will be of interest to researchers working on brain-age and related models.

      Thank you so much for providing high-quality reviews on our manuscript. We revised the manuscript to address all of the reviewers’ comments and provided full responses to each of the comments below. Importantly, in this revision, we clarified that we did not intend to use Brain Cognition as an alternative approach as mentioned by the editor. This is because, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. Here we made this point more explicit and further stated that the relationship between Brain Cognition and fluid cognition indicates the upper limit of Brain Age’s capability in capturing fluid cognition. By examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age. And such quantification is the third aim of this study.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this paper, the authors evaluate the utility of brain age derived metrics for predicting cognitive decline by performing a 'commonality' analysis in a downstream regression that enables the different contribution of different predictors to be assessed. The main conclusion is that brain age derived metrics do not explain much additional variation in cognition over and above what is already explained by age. The authors propose to use a regression model trained to predict cognition ('brain cognition') as an alternative suited to applications of cognitive decline. While this is less accurate overall than brain age, it explains more unique variance in the downstream regression.

      Importantly, in this revision, we clarified that we did not intend to use Brain Cognition as an alternative approach. This is because, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. Here we made this point more explicit and further stated that the relationship between Brain Cognition and fluid cognition indicates the upper limit of Brain Age’s capability in capturing fluid cognition. By examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age.

      REVISED VERSION: while the authors have partially addressed my concerns, I do not feel they have addressed them all. I do not feel they have addressed the weight instability and concerns about the stacked regression models satisfactorily.

      Please see our responses to #3 below

      I also must say that I agree with Reviewer 3 about the limitations of the brain age and brain cognition methods conceptually. In particular that the regression model used to predict fluid cognition will by construction explain more variance in cognition than a brain age model that is trained to predict age. This suffers from the same problem the authors raise with brain age and would indeed disappear if the authors had a separate measure of cognition against which to validate and were then to regress this out as they do for age correction. I am aware that these conceptual problems are more widespread than this paper alone (in fact throughout the brain age literature), so I do not believe the authors should be penalised for that. However, I do think they can make these concerns more explicit and further tone down the comments they make about the utility of brain cognition. I have indicated the main considerations about these points in the recommendations section below.

      Thank you so much for raising this point. We now have the following statement in the introduction and discussion to address this concern (see below).

      Briefly, we made it explicit that, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. That is, the relationship between Brain Cognition and fluid cognition indicates the upper limit of Brain Age’s capability in capturing fluid cognition. More importantly, by examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age. And this is the third goal of this present study.

      From Introduction:

      “Third and finally, certain variation in fluid cognition is related to brain MRI, but to what extent does Brain Age not capture this variation? To estimate the variation in fluid cognition that is related to the brain MRI, we could build prediction models that directly predict fluid cognition (i.e., as opposed to chronological age) from brain MRI data. Previous studies found reasonable predictive performances of these cognition-prediction models, built from certain MRI modalities (Dubois et al., 2018; Pat, Wang, Anney, et al., 2022; Rasero et al., 2021; Sripada et al., 2020; Tetereva et al., 2022; for review, see Vieira et al., 2022). Analogous to Brain Age, we called the predicted values from these cognition-prediction models, Brain Cognition. The strength of an out-of-sample relationship between Brain Cognition and fluid cognition reflects variation in fluid cognition that is related to the brain MRI and, therefore, indicates the upper limit of Brain Age’s capability in capturing fluid cognition. This is, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. Consequently, if we included Brain Cognition, Brain Age and chronological age in the same model to explain fluid cognition, we would be able to examine the unique effects of Brain Cognition that explain fluid cognition beyond Brain Age and chronological age. These unique effects of Brain Cognition, in turn, would indicate the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that is missed by Brain Age.”

      From Discussion:

      “Third, by introducing Brain Cognition, we showed the extent to which Brain Age indices were not able to capture the variation in fluid cognition that is related to brain MRI. More specifically, using Brain Cognition allowed us to gauge the variation in fluid cognition that is related to the brain MRI, and thereby, to estimate the upper limit of what Brain Age can do. Moreover, by examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age.

      From our results, Brain Cognition, especially from certain cognition-prediction models such as the stacked models, has relatively good predictive performance, consistent with previous studies (Dubois et al., 2018; Pat, Wang, Anney, et al., 2022; Rasero et al., 2021; Sripada et al., 2020; Tetereva et al., 2022; for review, see Vieira et al., 2022). We then examined Brain Cognition using commonality analyses (Nimon et al., 2008) in multiple regression models having a Brain Age index, chronological age and Brain Cognition as regressors to explain fluid cognition. Similar to Brain Age indices, Brain Cognition exhibited large common effects with chronological age. But more importantly, unlike Brain Age indices, Brain Cognition showed large unique effects, up to around 11%. As explained above, the unique effects of Brain Cognition indicated the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by a Brain Age index and chronological age. This missing amount was relatively high, considering that Brain Age and chronological age together explained around 32% of the total variation in fluid cognition. Accordingly, if a Brain Age index was used as a biomarker along with chronological age, we would have missed an opportunity to improve the performance of the model by around one-third of the variation explained.”

      This is a reasonably good paper and the use of a commonality analysis is a nice contribution to understanding variance partitioning across different covariates. I have some comments that I believe the authors ought to address, which mostly relate to clarity and interpretation

      Reviewer #1 Public Review #1

      First, from a conceptual point of view, the authors focus exclusively on cognition as a downstream outcome. I would suggest the authors nuance their discussion to provide broader considerations of the utility of their method and on the limits of interpretation of brain age models more generally.

      Thank you for your comments on this issue.

      We now discussed the broader consideration in detail:

      (1) the consistency between our findings on fluid cognition and other recent works on brain disorders,

      (2) the difference between studies investigating the utility of Brain Age in explaining cognitive functioning, including ours and others (e.g., Butler et al., 2021; Cole, 2020, 2020; Jirsaraie, Kaufmann, et al., 2023) and those explaining neurological/psychological disorders (e.g., Bashyam et al., 2020; Rokicki et al., 2021)

      and

      (3) suggested solutions we and others made to optimise the utility of Brain Age for both cognitive functioning and brain disorders.

      From Discussion:

      “This discrepancy between the predictive performance of age-prediction models and the utility of Brain Age indices as a biomarker is consistent with recent findings (for review, see Jirsaraie, Gorelik, et al., 2023), both in the context of cognitive functioning (Jirsaraie, Kaufmann, et al., 2023) and neurological/psychological disorders (Bashyam et al., 2020; Rokicki et al., 2021). For instance, combining different MRI modalities into the prediction models, similar to our stacked models, often leads to the highest performance of age-prediction models, but does not likely explain the highest variance across different phenotypes, including cognitive functioning and beyond (Jirsaraie, Gorelik, et al., 2023).”

      “There is a notable difference between studies investigating the utility of Brain Age in explaining cognitive functioning, including ours and others (e.g., Butler et al., 2021; Cole, 2020, 2020; Jirsaraie, Kaufmann, et al., 2023) and those explaining neurological/psychological disorders (e.g., Bashyam et al., 2020; Rokicki et al., 2021). We consider the former as a normative type of study and the latter as a case-control type of study (Insel et al., 2010; Marquand et al., 2016). Those case-control Brain Age studies focusing on neurological/psychological disorders often build age-prediction models from MRI data of largely healthy participants (e.g., controls in a case-control design or large samples in a population-based design), apply the built age-prediction models to participants without vs. with neurological/psychological disorders and compare Brain Age indices between the two groups. On the one hand, this means that case-control studies treat Brain Age as a method to detect anomalies in the neurological/psychological group (Hahn et al., 2021). On the other hand, this also means that case-control studies have to ignore under-fitted models when applied prediction models built from largely healthy participants to participants with neurological/psychological disorders (i.e., Brain Age may predict chronological age well for the controls, but not for those with a disorder). On the contrary, our study and other normative studies focusing on cognitive functioning often build age-prediction models from MRI data of largely healthy participants and apply the built age-prediction models to participants who are also largely healthy. Accordingly, the age-prediction models for explaining cognitive functioning in normative studies, while not allowing us to detect group-level anomalies, do not suffer from being under-fitted. This unfortunately might limit the generalisability of our study into just the normative type of study. Future work is still needed to test the utility of brain age in the case-control case.”

      “Next, researchers should not select age-prediction models based solely on age-prediction performance. Instead, researchers could select age-prediction models that explained phenotypes of interest the best. Here we selected age-prediction models based on a set of features (i.e., modalities) of brain MRI. This strategy was found effective not only for fluid cognition as we demonstrated here, but also for neurological and psychological disorders as shown elsewhere (Jirsaraie, Gorelik, et al., 2023; Rokicki et al., 2021). Rokicki and colleagues (2021), for instance, found that, while integrating across MRI modalities led to age-prediction models with the highest age-prediction performance, using only T1 structural MRI gave age-prediction models that were better at classifying Alzheimer’s disease. Similarly, using only cerebral blood flow gave age-prediction models that were better at classifying mild/subjective cognitive impairment, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

      As opposed to selecting age-prediction models based on a set of features, researchers could also select age-prediction models based on modelling methods. For instance, Jirsaraie and colleagues (2023) compared gradient tree boosting (GTB) and deep-learning brain network (DBN) algorithms in building age-prediction models. They found GTB to have higher age-prediction performance but DBN to have better utility in explaining cognitive functioning. In this case, an algorithm with better utility (e.g., DBN) should be used for explaining a phenotype of interest. Similarly, Bashyam and colleagues (2020) built different DBN-based age-prediction models, varying in age-prediction performance. The DBN models with a higher number of epochs corresponded to higher age-prediction performance. However, DBN-based age-prediction models with a moderate (as opposed to higher or lower) number of epochs were better at classifying Alzheimer’s disease, mild cognitive impairment and schizophrenia. In this case, a model from the same algorithm with better utility (e.g., those DBN with a moderate epoch number) should be used for explaining a phenotype of interest. Accordingly, this calls for a change in research practice, as recently pointed out by Jirasarie and colleagues (2023, p7), “Despite mounting evidence, there is a persisting assumption across several studies that the most accurate brain age models will have the most potential for detecting differences in a given phenotype of interest”. Future neuroimaging research should aim to build age-prediction models that are not necessarily good at predicting age, but at capturing phenotypes of interest.”

      Reviewer #1 Public Review #2

      Second, from a methods perspective, there is not a sufficient explanation of the methodological procedures in the current manuscript to fully understand how the stacked regression models were constructed. I would request that the authors provide more information to enable the reader to better understand the stacked regression models used to ensure that these models are not overfit.

      Thank you for allowing us an opportunity to clarify our stacked model. We made additional clarification to make this clearer (see below). We wanted to confirm that we did not use test sets to build a stacked model in both lower and higher levels of the Elastic Net models. Test sets were there just for testing the performance of the models.

      From Methods: “We used nested cross-validation (CV) to build these prediction models (see Figure 7). We first split the data into five outer folds, leaving each outer fold with around 100 participants. This number of participants in each fold is to ensure the stability of the test performance across folds. In each outer-fold CV loop, one of the outer folds was treated as an outer-fold test set, and the rest was treated as an outer-fold training set. Ultimately, looping through the nested CV resulted in a) prediction models from each of the 18 sets of features as well as b) prediction models that drew information across different combinations of the 18 separate sets, known as “stacked models.” We specified eight stacked models: “All” (i.e., including all 18 sets of features), “All excluding Task FC”, “All excluding Task Contrast”, “Non-Task” (i.e., including only Rest FC and sMRI), “Resting and Task FC”, “Task Contrast and FC”, “Task Contrast” and “Task FC”. Accordingly, there were 26 prediction models in total for both Brain Age and Brain Cognition.

      To create these 26 prediction models, we applied three steps for each outer-fold loop. The first step aimed at tuning prediction models for each of 18 sets of features. This step only involved the outer-fold training set and did not involve the outer-fold test set. Here, we divided the outer-fold training set into five inner folds and applied inner-fold CV to tune hyperparameters with grid search. Specifically, in each inner-fold CV, one of the inner folds was treated as an inner-fold validation set, and the rest was treated as an inner-fold training set. Within each inner-fold CV loop, we used the inner-fold training set to estimate parameters of the prediction model with a particular set of hyperparameters and applied the estimated model to the inner-fold validation set. After looping through the inner-fold CV, we, then, chose the prediction models that led to the highest performance, reflected by coefficient of determination (R2), on average across the inner-fold validation sets. This led to 18 tuned models, one for each of the 18 sets of features, for each outer fold.

      The second step aimed at tuning stacked models. Same as the first step, the second step only involved the outer-fold training set and did not involve the outer-fold test set. Here, using the same outer-fold training set as the first step, we applied tuned models, created from the first step, one from each of the 18 sets of features, resulting in 18 predicted values for each participant. We, then, re-divided this outer-fold training set into new five inner folds. In each inner fold, we treated different combinations of the 18 predicted values from separate sets of features as features to predict the targets in separate “stacked” models. Same as the first step, in each inner-fold CV loop, we treated one out of five inner folds as an inner-fold validation set, and the rest as an inner-fold training set. Also as in the first step, we used the inner-fold training set to estimate parameters of the prediction model with a particular set of hyperparameters from our grid. We tuned the hyperparameters of stacked models using grid search by selecting the models with the highest R2 on average across the inner-fold validation sets. This led to eight tuned stacked models.

      The third step aimed at testing the predictive performance of the 18 tuned prediction models from each of the set of features, built from the first step, and eight tuned stacked models, built from the second step. Unlike the first two steps, here we applied the already tuned models to the outer-fold test set. We started by applying the 18 tuned prediction models from each of the sets of features to each observation in the outer-fold test set, resulting in 18 predicted values. We then applied the tuned stacked models to these predicted values from separate sets of features, resulting in eight predicted values.

      To demonstrate the predictive performance, we assessed the similarity between the observed values and the predicted values of each model across outer-fold test sets, using Pearson’s r, coefficient of determination (R2) and mean absolute error (MAE). Note that for R2, we used the sum of squares definition (i.e., R2 = 1 – (sum of squares residuals/total sum of squares)) per a previous recommendation (Poldrack et al., 2020). We considered the predicted values from the outer-fold test sets of models predicting age or fluid cognition, as Brain Age and Brain Cognition, respectively.”

      Note some previous research, including ours (Tetereva et al., 2022), splits the observations in the outer-fold training set into layer 1 and layer 2 and applies the first and second steps to layers 1 and 2, respectively. Here we decided against this approach and used the same outer-fold training set for both first and second steps in order to avoid potential bias toward the stacked models. This is because, when the data are split into two layers, predictive models built for each separate set of features only use the data from layer 1, while the stacked models use the data from both layers 1 and 2. In practice with large enough data, these two approaches might not differ much, as we demonstrated previously (Tetereva et al., 2022).

      Reviewer #1 Public Review #3

      Please also provide an indication of the different regression strengths that were estimated across the different models and cross-validation splits. Also, how stable were the weights across splits?

      The focus of this article is on the predictions. Still, it is informative for readers to understand how stable the feature importance (i.e., Elastic Net coefficients) is. To demonstrate the stability of feature importance, we now examined the rank stability of feature importance using Spearman’s ρ (see Figure 4). Specifically, we correlated the feature importance between two prediction models of the same features, used in two different outer-fold test sets. Given that there were five outer-fold test sets, we computed 10 Spearman’s ρ for each prediction model of the same features. We found Spearman’s ρ to be varied dramatically in both age-prediction (range=.31-.94) and fluid cognition-prediction (range=.16-.84) models. This means that some prediction models were much more stable in their feature importance than others. This is probably due to various factors such as a) the collinearity of features in the model, b) the number of features (e.g., 71,631 features in functional connectivity, which were further reduced to 75 PCAs, as compared to 19 features in subcortical volume based on the ASEG atlas), c) the penalisation of coefficients either with ‘Ridge’ or ‘Lasso’ methods, which resulted in reduction as a group of features or selection of a feature among correlated features, respectively, and d) the predictive performance of the models. Understanding the stability of feature importance is beyond the scope of the current article. As mentioned by Reviewer 1, “The predictions can be stable when the coefficients are not,” and we chose to focus on the prediction in the current article.

      Reviewer #1 Public Review #4

      Please provide more details about the task designs, MRI processing procedures that were employed on this sample in addition to the regression methods and bias correction methods used. For example, there are several different parameterisations of the elastic net, please provide equations to describe the method used here so that readers can easily determine how the regularisation parameters should be interpreted.

      Thank you for the opportunity for us to provide more methodical details.

      First, for the task design, we included the following statements:

      From Methods:

      “HCP-A collected fMRI data from three tasks: Face Name (Sperling et al., 2001), Conditioned Approach Response Inhibition Task (CARIT) (Somerville et al., 2018) and VISual MOTOR (VISMOTOR) (Ances et al., 2009).

      First, the Face Name task (Sperling et al., 2001) taps into episodic memory. The task had three blocks. In the encoding block [Encoding], participants were asked to memorise the names of faces shown. These faces were then shown again in the recall block [Recall] when the participants were asked if they could remember the names of the previously shown faces. There was also the distractor block [Distractor] occurring between the encoding and recall blocks. Here participants were distracted by a Go/NoGo task. We computed six contrasts for this Face Name task: [Encode], [Recall], [Distractor], [Encode vs. Distractor], [Recall vs. Distractor] and [Encode vs. Recall].

      Second, the CARIT task (Somerville et al., 2018) was adapted from the classic Go/NoGo task and taps into inhibitory control. Participants were asked to press a button to all [Go] but not to two [NoGo] shapes. We computed three contrasts for the CARIT task: [NoGo], [Go] and [NoGo vs. Go].

      Third, the VISMOTOR task (Ances et al., 2009) was designed to test simple activation of the motor and visual cortices. Participants saw a checkerboard with a red square either on the left or right. They needed to press a corresponding key to indicate the location of the red square. We computed just one contrast for the VISMOTOR task: [Vismotor], which indicates the presence of the checkerboard vs. baseline.”

      Second, for MRI processing procedures, we included the following statements.

      From Methods: “HCP-A provides details of parameters for brain MRI elsewhere (Bookheimer et al., 2019; Harms et al., 2018). Here we used MRI data that were pre-processed by the HCP-A with recommended methods, including the MSMALL alignment (Glasser et al., 2016; Robinson et al., 2018) and ICA-FIX (Glasser et al., 2016) for functional MRI. We used multiple brain MRI modalities, covering task functional MRI (task fMRI), resting-state functional MRI (rsfMRI) and structural MRI (sMRI), and organised them into 19 sets of features.”

      “ Sets of Features 1-10: Task fMRI contrast (Task Contrast) Task contrasts reflect fMRI activation relevant to events in each task. Bookheimer and colleagues (2019) provided detailed information about the fMRI in HCP-A. Here we focused on the pre-processed task fMRI Connectivity Informatics Technology Initiative (CIFTI) files with a suffix, “_PA_Atlas_MSMAll_hp0_clean.dtseries.nii.” These CIFTI files encompassed both the cortical mesh surface and subcortical volume (Glasser et al., 2013). Collected using the posterior-to-anterior (PA) phase, these files were aligned using MSMALL (Glasser et al., 2016; Robinson et al., 2018), linear detrended (see https://groups.google.com/a/humanconnectome.org/g/hcp-users/c/ZLJc092h980/m/GiihzQAUAwAJ) and cleaned from potential artifacts using ICA-FIX (Glasser et al., 2016).

      To extract Task Contrasts, we regressed the fMRI time series on the convolved task events using a double-gamma canonical hemodynamic response function via FMRIB Software Library (FSL)’s FMRI Expert Analysis Tool (FEAT) (Woolrich et al., 2001). We kept FSL’s default high pass cutoff at 200s (i.e., .005 Hz). We then parcellated the contrast ‘cope’ files, using the Glasser atlas (Gordon et al., 2016) for cortical surface regions and the Freesurfer’s automatic segmentation (aseg) (Fischl et al., 2002) for subcortical regions. This resulted in 379 regions, whose number was, in turn, the number of features for each Task Contrast set of features. “

      “ Sets of Features 11-13: Task fMRI functional connectivity (Task FC) Task FC reflects functional connectivity (FC ) among the brain regions during each task, which is considered an important source of individual differences (Elliott et al., 2019; Fair et al., 2007; Gratton et al., 2018). We used the same CIFTI file “_PA_Atlas_MSMAll_hp0_clean.dtseries.nii.” as the task contrasts. Unlike Task Contrasts, here we treated the double-gamma, convolved task events as regressors of no interest and focused on the residuals of the regression from each task (Fair et al., 2007). We computed these regressors on FSL, and regressed them in nilearn (Abraham et al., 2014). Following previous work on task FC (Elliott et al., 2019), we applied a highpass at .008 Hz. For parcellation, we used the same atlases as Task Contrast (Fischl et al., 2002; Glasser et al., 2016). We computed Pearson’s correlations of each pair of 379 regions, resulting in a table of 71,631 non-overlapping FC indices for each task. We then applied r-to-z transformation and principal component analysis (PCA) of 75 components (Rasero et al., 2021; Sripada et al., 2019, 2020). Note to avoid data leakage, we conducted the PCA on each training set and applied its definition to the corresponding test set. Accordingly, there were three sets of 75 features for Task FC, one for each task.

      Set of Features 14: Resting-state functional MRI functional connectivity (Rest FC) Similar to Task FC, Rest FC reflects functional connectivity (FC ) among the brain regions, except that Rest FC occurred during the resting (as opposed to task-performing) period. HCP-A collected Rest FC from four 6.42-min (488 frames) runs across two days, leading to 26-min long data (Harms et al., 2018). On each day, the study scanned two runs of Rest FC, starting with anterior-to-posterior (AP) and then with posterior-to-anterior (PA) phase encoding polarity. We used the “rfMRI_REST_Atlas_MSMAll_hp0_clean.dscalar.nii” file that was pre-processed and concatenated across the four runs. We applied the same computations (i.e., highpass filter, parcellation, Pearson’s correlations, r-to-z transformation and PCA) with the Task FC.

      Sets of Features 15-18: Structural MRI (sMRI)

      sMRI reflects individual differences in brain anatomy. The HCP-A used an established pre-processing pipeline for sMRI (Glasser et al., 2013). We focused on four sets of features: cortical thickness, cortical surface area, subcortical volume and total brain volume. For cortical thickness and cortical surface area, we used Destrieux’s atlas (Destrieux et al., 2010; Fischl, 2012) from FreeSurfer’s “aparc.stats” file, resulting in 148 regions for each set of features. For subcortical volume, we used the aseg atlas (Fischl et al., 2002) from FreeSurfer’s “aseg.stats” file, resulting in 19 regions. For total brain volume, we had five FreeSurfer-based features: “FS_IntraCranial_Vol” or estimated intra-cranial volume, “FS_TotCort_GM_Vol” or total cortical grey matter volume, “FS_Tot_WM_Vol” or total cortical white matter volume, “FS_SubCort_GM_Vol” or total subcortical grey matter volume and “FS_BrainSegVol_eTIV_Ratio” or ratio of brain segmentation volume to estimated total intracranial volume.”

      Third, for regression methods and bias correction methods used, we included the following statements:

      From Methods:

      “For the machine learning algorithm, we used Elastic Net (Zou & Hastie, 2005). Elastic Net is a general form of penalised regressions (including Lasso and Ridge regression), allowing us to simultaneously draw information across different brain indices to predict one target variable. Penalised regressions are commonly used for building age-prediction models (Jirsaraie, Gorelik, et al., 2023). Previously we showed that the performance of Elastic Net in predicting cognitive abilities is on par, if not better than, many non-linear and more-complicated algorithms (Pat, Wang, Bartonicek, et al., 2022; Tetereva et al., 2022). Moreover, Elastic Net coefficients are readily explainable, allowing us the ability to explain how our age-prediction and cognition-prediction models made the prediction from each brain feature (Molnar, 2019; Pat, Wang, Bartonicek, et al., 2022) (see below).

      Elastic Net simultaneously minimises the weighted sum of the features’ coefficients. The degree of penalty to the sum of the feature’s coefficients is determined by a shrinkage hyperparameter ‘α’: the greater the α, the more the coefficients shrink, and the more regularised the model becomes. Elastic Net also includes another hyperparameter, ‘l1 ratio’, which determines the degree to which the sum of either the squared (known as ‘Ridge’; l1 ratio=0) or absolute (known as ‘Lasso’; l1 ratio=1) coefficients is penalised (Zou & Hastie, 2005). The objective function of Elastic Net as implemented by sklearn (Pedregosa et al., 2011) is defined as:

      where X is the features, y is the target, and β is the coefficient. In our grid search, we tuned two Elastic Net hyperparameters: α using 70 numbers in log space, ranging from .1 and 100, and l_1-ratio using 25 numbers in linear space, ranging from 0 and 1.

      To understand how Elastic Net made a prediction based on different brain features, we examined the coefficients of the tuned model. Elastic Net coefficients can be considered as feature importance, such that more positive Elastic Net coefficients lead to more positive predicted values and, similarly, more negative Elastic Net coefficients lead to more negative predicted values (Molnar, 2019; Pat, Wang, Bartonicek, et al., 2022). While the magnitude of Elastic Net coefficients is regularised (thus making it difficult for us to interpret the magnitude itself directly), we could still indicate that a brain feature with a higher magnitude weights relatively stronger in making a prediction. Another benefit of Elastic Net as a penalised regression is that the coefficients are less susceptible to collinearity among features as they have already been regularised (Dormann et al., 2013; Pat, Wang, Bartonicek, et al., 2022).

      Given that we used five-fold nested cross validation, different outer folds may have different degrees of ‘α’ and ‘l1 ratio’, making the final coefficients from different folds to be different. For instance, for certain sets of features, penalisation may not play a big part (i.e., higher or lower ‘α’ leads to similar predictive performance), resulting in different ‘α’ for different folds. To remedy this in the visualisation of Elastic Net feature importance, we refitted the Elastic Net model to the full dataset without splitting them into five folds and visualised the coefficients on brain images using Brainspace (Vos De Wael et al., 2020) and Nilern (Abraham et al., 2014) packages. Note, unlike other sets of features, Task FC and Rest FC were modelled after data reduction via PCA. Thus, for Task FC and Rest FC, we, first, multiplied the absolute PCA scores (extracted from the ‘components_’ attribute of ‘sklearn.decomposition.PCA’) with Elastic Net coefficients and, then, summed the multiplied values across the 75 components, leaving 71,631 ROI-pair indices. “

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      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This useful manuscript challenges the utility of current paradigms for estimating brain-age with magnetic resonance imaging measures, but presents inadequate evidence to support the suggestion that an alternative approach focused on predicting cognition is more useful. The paper would benefit from a clearer explication of the methods and a more critical evaluation of the conceptual basis of the different models. This work will be of interest to researchers working on brain-age and related models.

      Thank you so much for providing high-quality reviews on our manuscript. We revised the manuscript to address all of the reviewers’ comments and provided full responses to each of the comments below. Importantly, in this revision, we clarified that we did not intend to use Brain Cognition as an alternative approach. This is because, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. Here we made this point more explicit and further stated that the relationship between Brain Cognition and fluid cognition indicates the upper limit of Brain Age’s capability in capturing fluid cognition. By examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age. And such quantification is the third aim of this study.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer 1 (Public Review):

      In this paper, the authors evaluate the utility of brain-age-derived metrics for predicting cognitive decline by performing a 'commonality' analysis in a downstream regression that enables the different contribution of different predictors to be assessed. The main conclusion is that brain-age-derived metrics do not explain much additional variation in cognition over and above what is already explained by age. The authors propose to use a regression model trained to predict cognition ("brain-cognition") as an alternative suited to applications of cognitive decline. While this is less accurate overall than brain age, it explains more unique variance in the downstream regression.

      (1) I thank the authors for addressing many of my concerns with this revision. However, I do not feel they have addressed them all. In particular I think the authors could do more to address the concern I raised about the instability of the regression coefficients and about providing enough detail to determine that the stacked regression models do not overfit.

      Thank you Reviewer 1 for the comment. We addressed them in our response to Reviewer 1 Recommendations For The Authors #1 and #2 (see below).

      (2) In considering my responses to the authors revision, I also must say that I agree with Reviewer 3 about the limitations of the brain age and brain cognition methods conceptually. In particular that the regression model used to predict fluid cognition will by construction explain more variance in cognition than a brain age model that is trained to predict age. To be fair, these conceptual problems are more widespread than this paper alone, so I do not believe the authors should be penalised for that. However, I would recommend to make these concerns more explicit in the manuscript

      Thank you Reviewer 1 for the comment. We addressed them in our response to Reviewer 1 Recommendations For The Authors #3 (see below).

      Reviewer 2 (Public Review):

      In this study, the authors aimed to evaluate the contribution of brain-age indices in capturing variance in cognitive decline and proposed an alternative index, brain-cognition, for consideration.

      The study employs suitable methods and data to address the research questions, and the methods and results sections are generally clear and easy to follow.

      I appreciate the authors' efforts in significantly improving the paper, including some considerable changes, from the original submission. While not all reviewer points were tackled, the majority of them were adequately addressed. These include additional analyses, more clarity in the methods and a much richer and nuanced discussion. While recognising the merits of the revised paper, I have a few additional comments.

      (1) Perhaps it would help the reader to note that it might be expected for brain-cognition to account for a significantly larger variance (11%) in fluid cognition, in contrast to brain-age. This stems from the fact that the authors specifically trained brain-cognition to predict fluid cognition, the very variable under consideration. In line with this, the authors later recommend that researchers considering the use of brain-age should evaluate its utility using a regression approach. The latter involves including a brain index (e.g. brain-cognition) previously trained to predict the regression's target variable (e.g. fluid cognition) alongside a brain-age index (e.g., corrected brain-age gap). If the target-trained brain index outperforms the brain-age metric, it suggests that relying solely on brain-age might not be the optimal choice. Although not necessarily the case, is it surprising for the target-trained brain index to demonstrate better performance than brain-age? This harks back to the broader point raised in the initial review: while brain-age may prove useful (though sometimes with modest effect sizes) across diverse outcomes as a generally applicable metric, a brain index tailored for predicting a specific outcome, such as brain-cognition in this case, might capture a considerably larger share of variance in that specific context but could lack broader applicability. The latter aspect needs to be empirically assessed.

      Thank you so much for raising this point. Reviewer 1 (Public Review #2/Recommendations For The Authors #3) and Reviewer 3 (Recommendations for the Authors #1) made a similar observation. We now made changes to the introduction and discussion to address this concern (please see our responses to Reviewer 1 Recommendations For The Authors #3 below).

      Briefly, as in our 2nd revision, we did not intend to compare Brain Age with Brain Cognition since, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. Here we made this point more explicit and further stated that the relationship between Brain Cognition and fluid cognition indicates the upper limit of Brain Age’s capability in capturing fluid cognition. By examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age. And such quantification is the third aim of this study.

      (2) Furthermore, the discussion pertaining to training brain-age models on healthy populations for subsequent testing on individuals with neurological or psychological disorders seems somewhat one-sided within the broader debate. This one-sidedness might potentially confuse readers. It is worth noting that the choice to employ healthy participants in the training model is likely deliberate, serving as a norm against which atypical populations are compared. To provide a more comprehensive understanding, referencing Tim Hans's counterargument to Bashyam's perspective could offer a more complete view (https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/144/3/e31/6214475?login=false).

      Thank you Reviewer 2 for bringing up this issue. We have now revised the paragraph in question and added nuances on the usage of Brain Age for normative vs. case-control studies. We also cited Tim Hahn’s article that explained the conceptual foundation of the use of Brain Age in case-control studies. Please see below. Additionally, we also made a statement about our study not being able to address issues about the case-control studies directly in the newly written conclusion (see Reviewer 3 Recommendations for the Authors #3).

      Discussion:

      “There is a notable difference between studies investigating the utility of Brain Age in explaining cognitive functioning, including ours and others (e.g., Butler et al., 2021; Cole, 2020, 2020; Jirsaraie et al., 2023) and those explaining neurological/psychological disorders (e.g., Bashyam et al., 2020; Rokicki et al., 2021). We consider the former as a normative type of study and the latter as a case-control type of study (Insel et al., 2010; Marquand et al., 2016). Those case-control Brain Age studies focusing on neurological/psychological disorders often build age-prediction models from MRI data of largely healthy participants (e.g., controls in a case-control design or large samples in a population-based design), apply the built age-prediction models to participants without vs. with neurological/psychological disorders and compare Brain Age indices between the two groups. On the one hand, this means that case-control studies treat Brain Age as a method to detect anomalies in the neurological/psychological group (Hahn et al., 2021). On the other hand, this also means that case-control studies have to ignore under-fitted models when applied prediction models built from largely healthy participants to participants with neurological/psychological disorders (i.e., Brain Age may predict chronological age well for the controls, but not for those with a disorder). On the contrary, our study and other normative studies focusing on cognitive functioning often build age-prediction models from MRI data of largely healthy participants and apply the built age-prediction models to participants who are also largely healthy. Accordingly, the age-prediction models for explaining cognitive functioning in normative studies, while not allowing us to detect group-level anomalies, do not suffer from being under-fitted. This unfortunately might limit the generalisability of our study into just the normative type of study. Future work is still needed to test the utility of brain age in the case-control case.”

      (3) Overall, this paper makes a significant contribution to the field of brain-age and related brain indices and their utility.

      Thank you for the encouragement.

      Reviewer 3 (Public Review):

      The main question of this article is as follows: "To what extent does having information on brain-age improve our ability to capture declines in fluid cognition beyond knowing a person's chronological age?" This question is worthwhile, considering that there is considerable confusion in the field about the nature of brain-age.

      (1) Thank you to the authors for addressing so many of my concerns with this revision. There are a few points that I feel still need addressing/clarifying related to 1) calculating brain cognition, 2) the inevitability of their results, and 3) their continued recommendation to use brain-age metrics.

      Thank you Reviewer 3 for the comment. We addressed them in our response to Reviewer 3 Recommendations For The Authors #1-3 (see below).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer 1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) I do not feel the authors have fully addressed the concern I raised about the stacked regression models. Despite the new figure, it is still not entirely clear what the authors are using as the training set in the final step. To be clear, the problem occurs because of the parameters, not the hyperparameters (which the authors now state that they are optimising via nested grid search). in other words, given a regression model y = X*beta, if the X are taken to be predictions from a lower level regression model, then they contain information that is derived from both the training set at the test set for the model that this was trained on. If the split is the same (i.e. the predictions are derived on the same test set as is being used at the second level), then this can lead to overfitting. It is not clear to me whether the authors have done this or not. Please provide additional detail to clarify this point.

      Thank you for allowing us an opportunity to clarify our stacked model. We wanted to confirm that we did not use test sets to build a stacked model in both lower and higher levels of the Elastic Net models. Test sets were there just for testing the performance of the models. We made additional clarification to make this clearer (see below). Let us explain what we did and provide the rationales below.

      From Methods:

      “We used nested cross-validation (CV) to build these prediction models (see Figure 7). We first split the data into five outer folds, leaving each outer fold with around 100 participants. This number of participants in each fold is to ensure the stability of the test performance across folds. In each outer-fold CV loop, one of the outer folds was treated as an outer-fold test set, and the rest was treated as an outer-fold training set. Ultimately, looping through the nested CV resulted in a) prediction models from each of the 18 sets of features as well as b) prediction models that drew information across different combinations of the 18 separate sets, known as “stacked models.” We specified eight stacked models: “All” (i.e., including all 18 sets of features), “All excluding Task FC”, “All excluding Task Contrast”, “Non-Task” (i.e., including only Rest FC and sMRI), “Resting and Task FC”, “Task Contrast and FC”, “Task Contrast” and “Task FC”. Accordingly, there were 26 prediction models in total for both Brain Age and Brain Cognition.

      To create these 26 prediction models, we applied three steps for each outer-fold loop. The first step aimed at tuning prediction models for each of 18 sets of features. This step only involved the outer-fold training set and did not involve the outer-fold test set. Here, we divided the outer-fold training set into five inner folds and applied inner-fold CV to tune hyperparameters with grid search. Specifically, in each inner-fold CV, one of the inner folds was treated as an inner-fold validation set, and the rest was treated as an inner-fold training set. Within each inner-fold CV loop, we used the inner-fold training set to estimate parameters of the prediction model with a particular set of hyperparameters and applied the estimated model to the inner-fold validation set. After looping through the inner-fold CV, we, then, chose the prediction models that led to the highest performance, reflected by coefficient of determination (R2), on average across the inner-fold validation sets. This led to 18 tuned models, one for each of the 18 sets of features, for each outer fold.

      The second step aimed at tuning stacked models. Same as the first step, the second step only involved the outer-fold training set and did not involve the outer-fold test set. Here, using the same outer-fold training set as the first step, we applied tuned models, created from the first step, one from each of the 18 sets of features, resulting in 18 predicted values for each participant. We, then, re-divided this outer-fold training set into new five inner folds. In each inner fold, we treated different combinations of the 18 predicted values from separate sets of features as features to predict the targets in separate “stacked” models. Same as the first step, in each inner-fold CV loop, we treated one out of five inner folds as an inner-fold validation set, and the rest as an inner-fold training set. Also as in the first step, we used the inner-fold training set to estimate parameters of the prediction model with a particular set of hyperparameters from our grid. We tuned the hyperparameters of stacked models using grid search by selecting the models with the highest R2 on average across the inner-fold validation sets. This led to eight tuned stacked models.

      The third step aimed at testing the predictive performance of the 18 tuned prediction models from each of the set of features, built from the first step, and eight tuned stacked models, built from the second step. Unlike the first two steps, here we applied the already tuned models to the outer-fold test set. We started by applying the 18 tuned prediction models from each of the sets of features to each observation in the outer-fold test set, resulting in 18 predicted values. We then applied the tuned stacked models to these predicted values from separate sets of features, resulting in eight predicted values.

      To demonstrate the predictive performance, we assessed the similarity between the observed values and the predicted values of each model across outer-fold test sets, using Pearson’s r, coefficient of determination (R2) and mean absolute error (MAE). Note that for R2, we used the sum of squares definition (i.e., R2 = 1 – (sum of squares residuals/total sum of squares)) per a previous recommendation (Poldrack et al., 2020). We considered the predicted values from the outer-fold test sets of models predicting age or fluid cognition, as Brain Age and Brain Cognition, respectively.”

      Author response image 1.

      Diagram of the nested cross-validation used for creating predictions for models of each set of features as well as predictions for stacked models.

      Note some previous research, including ours (Tetereva et al., 2022), splits the observations in the outer-fold training set into layer 1 and layer 2 and applies the first and second steps to layers 1 and 2, respectively. Here we decided against this approach and used the same outer-fold training set for both first and second steps in order to avoid potential bias toward the stacked models. This is because, when the data are split into two layers, predictive models built for each separate set of features only use the data from layer 1, while the stacked models use the data from both layers 1 and 2. In practice with large enough data, these two approaches might not differ much, as we demonstrated previously (Tetereva et al., 2022).

      (2) I also do not feel the authors have fully addressed the concern I raised about stability of the regression coefficients over splits of the data. I wanted to see the regression coefficients, not the predictions. The predictions can be stable when the coefficients are not.

      The focus of this article is on the predictions. Still, as pointed out by reviewer 1, it is informative for readers to understand how stable the feature importance (i.e., Elastic Net coefficients) is. To demonstrate the stability of feature importance, we now examined the rank stability of feature importance using Spearman’s ρ (see Figure 4). Specifically, we correlated the feature importance between two prediction models of the same features, used in two different outer-fold test sets. Given that there were five outer-fold test sets, we computed 10 Spearman’s ρ for each prediction model of the same features. We found Spearman’s ρ to be varied dramatically in both age-prediction (range=.31-.94) and fluid cognition-prediction (range=.16-.84) models. This means that some prediction models were much more stable in their feature importance than others. This is probably due to various factors such as a) the collinearity of features in the model, b) the number of features (e.g., 71,631 features in functional connectivity, which were further reduced to 75 PCAs, as compared to 19 features in subcortical volume based on the ASEG atlas), c) the penalisation of coefficients either with ‘Ridge’ or ‘Lasso’ methods, which resulted in reduction as a group of features or selection of a feature among correlated features, respectively, and d) the predictive performance of the models. Understanding the stability of feature importance is beyond the scope of the current article. As mentioned by Reviewer 1, “The predictions can be stable when the coefficients are not,” and we chose to focus on the prediction in the current article.

      Author response image 2.

      Stability of feature importance (i.e., Elastic Net Coefficients) of prediction models. Each dot represents rank stability (reflected by Spearman’s ρ) in the feature importance between two prediction models of the same features, used in two different outer-fold test sets. Given that there were five outer-fold test sets, there were 10 Spearman’s ρs for each prediction model. The numbers to the right of the plots indicate the mean of Spearman’s ρ for each prediction model.

      (3) I also must say that I agree with Reviewer 3 about the limitations of the brain-age and brain-cognition methods conceptually. In particular that the regression model used to predict fluid cognition will by construction explain more variance in cognition than a brain-age model that is trained to predict age. This suffers from the same problem the authors raise with brain-age and I agree that this would probably disappear if the authors had a separate measure of cognition against which to validate and were then to regress this out as they do for age correction. I am aware that these conceptual problems are more widespread than this paper alone (in fact throughout the brain-age literature), so I do not believe the authors should be penalised for that. However, I do think they can make these concerns more explicit and further tone down the comments they make about the utility of brain-cognition.

      Thank you so much for raising this point. Reviewer 2 (Public Review #1) and Reviewer 3 (Recommendations for the Authors #1) made a similar observation. We now made changes to the introduction and discussion to address this concern (see below).

      Briefly, we made it explicit that, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. That is, the relationship between Brain Cognition and fluid cognition indicates the upper limit of Brain Age’s capability in capturing fluid cognition. More importantly, by examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age. And this is the third goal of this present study.

      From Introduction:

      “Third and finally, certain variation in fluid cognition is related to brain MRI, but to what extent does Brain Age not capture this variation? To estimate the variation in fluid cognition that is related to the brain MRI, we could build prediction models that directly predict fluid cognition (i.e., as opposed to chronological age) from brain MRI data. Previous studies found reasonable predictive performances of these cognition-prediction models, built from certain MRI modalities (Dubois et al., 2018; Pat et al., 2022; Rasero et al., 2021; Sripada et al., 2020; Tetereva et al., 2022; for review, see Vieira et al., 2022). Analogous to Brain Age, we called the predicted values from these cognition-prediction models, Brain Cognition. The strength of an out-of-sample relationship between Brain Cognition and fluid cognition reflects variation in fluid cognition that is related to the brain MRI and, therefore, indicates the upper limit of Brain Age’s capability in capturing fluid cognition. This is, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. Consequently, if we included Brain Cognition, Brain Age and chronological age in the same model to explain fluid cognition, we would be able to examine the unique effects of Brain Cognition that explain fluid cognition beyond Brain Age and chronological age. These unique effects of Brain Cognition, in turn, would indicate the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that is missed by Brain Age.”

      From Discussion:

      “Third, by introducing Brain Cognition, we showed the extent to which Brain Age indices were not able to capture the variation in fluid cognition that is related to brain MRI. More specifically, using Brain Cognition allowed us to gauge the variation in fluid cognition that is related to the brain MRI, and thereby, to estimate the upper limit of what Brain Age can do. Moreover, by examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age.

      From our results, Brain Cognition, especially from certain cognition-prediction models such as the stacked models, has relatively good predictive performance, consistent with previous studies (Dubois et al., 2018; Pat et al., 2022; Rasero et al., 2021; Sripada et al., 2020; Tetereva et al., 2022; for review, see Vieira et al., 2022). We then examined Brain Cognition using commonality analyses (Nimon et al., 2008) in multiple regression models having a Brain Age index, chronological age and Brain Cognition as regressors to explain fluid cognition. Similar to Brain Age indices, Brain Cognition exhibited large common effects with chronological age. But more importantly, unlike Brain Age indices, Brain Cognition showed large unique effects, up to around 11%. As explained above, the unique effects of Brain Cognition indicated the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by a Brain Age index and chronological age. This missing amount was relatively high, considering that Brain Age and chronological age together explained around 32% of the total variation in fluid cognition. Accordingly, if a Brain Age index was used as a biomarker along with chronological age, we would have missed an opportunity to improve the performance of the model by around one-third of the variation explained.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Thank you to the authors for addressing so many of my concerns with this revision. There are a few points that I feel still need addressing/clarifying related to: 1) calculating brain cognition, 2) the inevitability of their results, and 3) their continued recommendation to use brain age metrics.

      (1) I understand your point here. I think the distinction is that it is fine to build predictive models, but then there is no need to go through this intermediate step of "brain-cognition". Just say that brain features can predict cognition XX well, and brain-age (or some related metric) can predict cognition YY well. It creates a confusing framework for the reader that can lead them to believe that "brain-cognition" is not just a predicted value of fluid cognition from a model using brain features to predict cognition. While you clearly state that that is in fact what it is in the text, which is a huge improvement, I do not see what is added by going through brain-cognition instead of simply just obtaining a change in R2 where the first model uses brain features alone to predict cognition, and the second adds on brain-age (or related metrics), or visa versa, depending on the question. Please do this analysis, and either compare and contrast it with going through "brain-cognition" in your paper, or switch to this analysis, as it more directly addresses the question of the incremental predictive utility of brain-age above and beyond brain features.

      Thank you so much for raising this point. Reviewer 1 (Public Review #2/Recommendations For The Authors #3) and Reviewer 2 (Public Review #1) made a similar observation. We now made changes to the introduction and discussion to address this concern (see our responses to Reviewer 1 Recommendations For The Authors #3 above).

      Briefly, as in our 2nd revision, we made it explicitly clear that we did not intend to compare Brain Age with Brain Cognition since, by design, the variation in fluid cognition explained by Brain Cognition should be higher or equal to that explained by Brain Age. And, by examining what was captured by Brain Cognition, over and above Brain Age and chronological age via the unique effects of Brain Cognition, we were able to quantify the amount of co-variation between brain MRI and fluid cognition that was missed by Brain Age.

      We have thought about changing the name Brain Cognition into something along the lines of “predicted values of prediction models predicting fluid cognition based on brain MRI.” However, this made the manuscript hard to follow, especially with the commonality analyses. For instance, the sentence, “Here, we tested Brain Cognition’s unique effects in multiple regression models with a Brain Age index, chronological age and Brain Cognition as regressors to explain fluid cognition” would become “Here, we tested predicted values of prediction models predicting fluid cognition based on brain MRI unique effects in multiple regression models with a Brain Age index, chronological age and predicted values of prediction models predicting fluid cognition based on brain MRI as regressors to explain fluid cognition.” We believe, given our additional explanation (see our responses to Reviewer 1 Recommendations For The Authors #3 above), readers should understand what Brain Cognition is, and that we did not intend to compare Brain Age and Brain Cognition directly.

      As for the suggested analysis, “obtaining a change in R2 where the first model uses brain features alone to predict cognition, and the second adds on brain-age (or related metrics), or visa versa,” we have already done this in the form of commonality analysis (Nimon et al., 2008) (see Figure 7 below). That is, to obtain unique and common effects of the regressors, we need to look at all of the possible changes in R2 when all possible subsets of regressors were excluded or included, see equations 12 and 13 below.

      From Methods:

      “Similar to the above multiple regression model, we had chronological age, each Brain Age index and Brain Cognition as the regressors for fluid cognition:

      Fluid Cognitioni = β0 + β1 Chronological Agei + β2 Brain Age Indexi,j + β3 Brain Cognitioni + εi, (12)

      Applying the commonality analysis here allowed us, first, to investigate the addictive, unique effects of Brain Cognition, over and above chronological age and Brain Age indices. More importantly, the commonality analysis also enabled us to test the common, shared effects that Brain Cognition had with chronological age and Brain Age indices in explaining fluid cognition. We calculated the commonality analysis as follows (Nimon et al., 2017):

      Unique Effectchronological age = ΔR2chronological age = R2chronological age, Brain Age index, Brain Cognition – R2 Brain Age index, Brain Cognition

      Unique EffectBrain Age index = ΔR2Brain Age index = R2chronological age, Brain Age index, Brain Cognition – R2 chronological age, Brain Cognition

      Unique EffectBrain Cognition = ΔR2Brain Cognition = R2chronological age, Brain Age index, Brain Cognition – R2 chronological age, Brain Age Index

      Common Effectchronological age, Brain Age index = R2chronological age, Brain Cognition + R2 Brain Age index, Brain Cognition – R2 Brain Cognition – R2chronological age, Brain Age index, Brain Cognition

      Common Effectchronological age, Brain Cognition = R2chronological age, Brain Age Index + R2 Brain Age index, Brain Cognition – R2 Brain Age Index – R2chronological age, Brain Age index, Brain Cognition

      Common Effect Brain Age index, Brain Cognition = R2chronological age, Brain Age Index + R2 chronological age, Brain Cognition – R2 chronological age – R2chronological age, Brain Age index, Brain Cognition

      Common Effect chronological age, Brain Age index, Brain Cognition = R2 chronological age + R2 Brain Age Index + R2 Brain Cognition – R2chronological age, Brain Age Index – R2 chronological age, Brain Cognition – R2 Brain Age Index, Brain Cognition – R2chronological age, Brain Age index, Brain Cognition , (13)”

      (2) I agree that the solution is not to exclude age as a covariate, and that there is a big difference between inevitable and obvious. I simply think a further discussion of the inevitability of the results would be clarifying for the readers. There is a big opportunity in the brain-age literature to be as direct as possible about why you are finding what you are finding. People need to know not only what you found, but why you found what you found.

      Thank you. We agreed that we need to make this point more explicit and direct. In the revised manuscript, we had the statements in both Introduction and Discussion (see below) about the tight relationship between Brain Age and chronological age by design, making the small unique effects of Brain Age inevitable.

      Introduction:

      “Accordingly, by design, Brain Age is tightly close to chronological age. Because chronological age usually has a strong relationship with fluid cognition, to begin with, it is unclear how much Brain Age adds to what is already captured by chronological age.“

      Discussion:

      “First, Brain Age itself did not add much more information to help us capture fluid cognition than what we had already known from a person’s chronological age. This can clearly be seen from the small unique effects of Brain Age indices in the multiple regression models having Brain Age and chronological age as the regressors. While the unique effects of some Brain Age indices from certain age-prediction models were statistically significant, there were all relatively small. Without Brain Age indices, chronological age by itself already explained around 32% of the variation in fluid cognition. Including Brain Age indices only added around 1.6% at best. We believe the small unique effects of Brain Age were inevitable because, by design, Brain Age is tightly close to chronological age. Therefore, chronological age and Brain Age captured mostly a similar variation in fluid cognition.

      Investigating the simple regression models and the commonality analysis between each Brain Age index and chronological age provided additional insights….”

      (3) I believe it is very important to critically examine the use of brain-age and related metrics. As part of this process, I think we should be asking ourselves the following questions (among others): Why go through age prediction? Wouldn't the predictions of cognition (or another variable) using the same set of brain features always be as good or better? You still have not justified the use of brain-age. As I said before, if you are going to continue to recommend the use of brain-age, you need a very strong argument for why you are recommending this. What does it truly add? Otherwise, temper your statements to indicate possible better paths forward.

      Thank you Reviewer 3 for making an argument against the use of Brain Age. We largely agree with you. However, our work only focuses on one phenotype, fluid cognition, and on the normative situation (i.e., not having a case vs control group). As Reviewer 2 pointed out, Brain Age might still have utility in other cases, not studied here. Still, future studies that focus on other phenotypes may consider using our approach as a template to test the utility of Brain Age in other situations. We added the conclusion statement to reflect this.

      From Discussion:

      “Altogether, we examined the utility of Brain Age as a biomarker for fluid cognition. Here are the three conclusions. First, Brain Age failed to add substantially more information over and above chronological age. Second, a higher ability to predict chronological age did not correspond to a higher utility to capture fluid cognition. Third, Brain Age missed up to around one-third of the variation in fluid cognition that could have been explained by brain MRI. Yet, given our focus on fluid cognition, future empirical research is needed to test the utility of Brain Age on other phenotypes, especially when Brain Age is used for anomaly detection in case-control studies (e.g., Bashyam et al., 2020; Rokicki et al., 2021). We hope that future studies may consider applying our approach (i.e., using the commonality analysis that includes predicted values from a model that directly predicts the phenotype of interest) to test the utility of Brain Age as a biomarker for other phenotypes.”

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      We thank you for the time you took to review our work and for your feedback! 

      The major changes to the manuscript are:

      (1) We have added visual flow speed and locomotion velocity traces to Figure 5 as suggested.

      (2) We have rephrased the abstract to more clearly indicate that our statement regarding acetylcholine enabling faster switching of internal representations in layer 5 is speculative.

      (3) We have further clarified the positioning of our findings regarding the basal forebrain cholinergic signal in visual cortex in the introduction.

      (4) We have added a video (Video S1) to illustrate different mouse running speeds covered by our data.

      A detailed point-by-point response to all reviewer concerns is provided below.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors have addressed most of the concerns raised in the initial review. While the paper has been improved, there are still some points of concern in the revised version. 

      Major comments

      (1) Page 1, Line 21: The authors claim, "Our results suggest that acetylcholine augments the responsiveness of layer 5 neurons to inputs from outside of the local network, enabling faster switching between internal representations during locomotion." However, it is not clear which specific data or results support the claim of "switching between internal representations." ... 

      Authors' response: "... That acetylcholine enables a faster switching between internal representations in layer 5 is a speculation. We have attempted to make this clearer in the discussion. ..." 

      In the revised version, there is no new data added to directly support the claim - "Our results suggest acetylcholine ..., enabling faster switching between internal representations during locomotion" (in the abstract). The authors themselves acknowledge that this statement is speculative. The present data only demonstrate that ACh reduces the response latency of L5 neurons to visual stimuli, but not that ACh facilitates quicker transitions in neuronal responses from one visual stimulus to another. To maintain scientific rigor and clarity, I recommend the authors amend this sentence to more accurately reflect the findings. 

      This might be a semantic disagreement? We would argue both a gray screen and a grating are visual stimuli. Hence, we are not sure we understand what the reviewer means by “but not that ACh facilitates quicker transitions in neuronal responses from one visual stimulus to another”. We concur, our data only address one of many possible transitions, but it is a switch between distinct visual stimuli that is sped up by ACh. Nevertheless, we have rephrased the sentence in question by changing “our data suggest” to “based on this we speculate” - but are not sure whether this addresses the reviewer’s concern.  

      (2) Page 4, Line 103: "..., a direct measurement of the activity of cholinergic projection from basal forebrain to the visual cortex during locomotion has not been made." This statement is incorrect. An earlier study by Reimer et al. indeed imaged cholinergic axons in the visual cortex of mice running on a wheel. 

      Authors' response: "We have clarified this as suggested. However, we disagree slightly with the reviewer here. The key question is whether the cholinergic axons imaged originate in basal forebrain. While Reimer et al. 2016 did set out to do this, we believe a number of methodological considerations prevent this conclusion: ... Collins et al. 2023 inject more laterally and thus characterize cholinergic input to S1 and A1, ..."

      The authors pointed out some methodological caveats in previous studies that measured the BF input in V1, and I agree with them on several points. Nonetheless, the statement that "a direct measurement of the activity of cholinergic projection from basal forebrain to visual cortex during locomotion has not been made. ... Prior measurements of the activity of cholinergic axons in visual cortex have all relied on data from a cross of ChAT-Cre mice with a reporter line ..." (Page 4, Line 103) seems to be an oversimplification. In fact, contrary to what the authors noted, Collins et al. (2023) conducted direct imaging of BF cholinergic axons in V1 (Fig. 1) - "Selected axon segments were chosen from putative retrosplenial, somatosensory, primary and secondary motor, and visual cortices". They used a viral approach to express GCaMP in BF axons to bypass the limitations associated with the use of a GCaMP reporter mouse line - "Viral injections were used for BF- ACh studies to avoid imaging axons or dendrites from cholinergic projections not arising from the BF (e.g. cortical cholinergic interneurons)." The authors should reconsider the text. 

      The reason we think that our statement here was – while simplified – accurate, is that Collins et al. do record from cholinergic axons in V1, but they don’t show these data (they only show pooled data across all recordings sites). By superimposing the recording locations of the Collins paper on the Allen mouse brain atlas (Figure R1), we estimate that of the approximately 50 recording sites, most are in somatosensory and somatomotor areas of cortex, and only 1 appears to be in V1, something that is often missed as it is not really highlighted in that paper. If this is indeed correct, we would argue that the data in the Collins et al. paper are not representative of cholinergic activity in visual cortex (we fear only the authors would know for sure). Nevertheless, we have rephrased again. 

      Author response image 1.

      Overlay of the Collins et al. imaging sites (red dots, black outline and dashed circle) on the Allen mouse brain atlas (green shading). Very few (we estimate that it was only 1) of the recording sites appear to be in V1 (the lightest green area), and maybe an additional 4 appear to be in secondary visual areas.  

      Minor comments

      (1) It is unclear which BF subregion(s) were targeted in this study. 

      Authors' response: Thanks for pointing this out. We targeted the entire basal forebrain (medial septum, vertical and horizontal limbs of the diagonal band, and nucleus basalis) with our viral injections. ... We have now added the labels for basal forebrain subregions targeted next to the injection coordinates in the manuscript. 

      The authors provided the coordinates for their virus injections targeting the BF subregions - "(AP, ML, DV (in mm): ... ; +0.6, +0.6, -4.9 (nucleus basalis) ..." Is this the right coordinates for the nucleus basalis? 

      Thank you for catching this - this was indeed incorrect. The coordinates were correct, but our annotation of brain region was not (as the reviewer correctly points out, these coordinates are in the horizontal limb of the diagonal band, not the nucleus basalis). We have corrected this.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Thank you for addressing most of the points raised in my original review. I still some concerns relating to the analysis of the data. 

      (1) I appreciate the authors point that getting mice to reliably during head-fixed recordings can require training. Since mice in this study were not trained to run, their low speed of locomotion limits the interpretation of the results. I think this is an important potential caveat and I have retained it in the public review. 

      This might be a misunderstanding. The Jordan paper was a bit of an outlier in that we needed mice to run at very high rates due to fact that our recording times was only minutes. Mice were chosen such that they would more or less continuously run, to maximize the likelihood that they would run during the intracellular recordings. This was what we tried to convey in our previous response. The speed range covered by the analysis in this paper is 0 cm/s to 36 cm/s. 36 cm/s is not far away from the top speed mice can reach on this treadmill (30 cm/s is 1 revolution of the treadmill per second). In our data, the top speed we measured across all mice was 36 cm/s. In the Jordan paper, the peak running speed across the entire dataset was 44 cm/s. Based on the reviewer’s comment, we suspect that the reviewer may be under the impression that 30 cm/s is a relatively slow running speed. To illustrate what this looks like we have made added a video (Video S1) to illustrate different running speeds. 

      (2) The majority of the analyses in the revised manuscript focus on grand average responses, which may mask heterogeneity in the underlying neural populations. This could be addressed by analysing the magnitude and latency of responses for individual neurons. For example, if I understand correctly, the analyses include all neurons, whether or not they are activated, inhibited, or unaffected by visual stimulation and locomotion. For example, while on average layer 2/3 neurons are suppressed by the grating stimulus (Figure 4A), presumable a subset are activated. Evaluating the effects of optogenetic stimulation and locomotion without analyzing them at the level of individual neurons could result in misleading conclusions. This could be presented in the form of a scatter plot, depicting the magnitude of neuronal responses in locomotion vs stationary condition, and opto+ vs no opto conditions. 

      We might be misunderstanding. The first part of the comment is a bit too unspecific to address directly. In cases in which we find the variability is relevant to our conclusions, we do show this for individual cells (e.g.the latencies to running onset are shown as histograms for all cells and axons in Figure S1). It is also unclear to us what the reviewer means by “Evaluating the effects of optogenetic stimulation and locomotion without analyzing them at the level of individual neurons could result in misleading conclusions”. Our conclusions relate to the average responses in L2/3, consistent with the analysis shown. All data will be freely available for anyone to perform follow-up analysis of things we may have missed. E.g., the specific suggestion of presenting the data shown in Figure 4 as a scatter plot is shown below (Figure R2). This is something we had looked at but found not to be relevant to our conclusions. The problem with this analysis is that it is difficult to estimate how much the different sources of variability contribute to the total variability observed in the data, and no interesting pattern is clearly apparent. All relevant and clear conclusions are already captured by the mean differences shown in Figure 4. 

      Author response image 2.

      Optogenetic activation of cholinergic axons in visual cortex primarily enhances responses of layer 5, but not layer 2/3 neurons. Related to Figure 4. (A) Average calcium response of layer 2/3 neurons in visual cortex to full field drifting grating in the absence or presence of locomotion. Each dot is the average calcium activity of an individual neuron during the two conditions. (B) As in A, but for layer 5 neurons. (C) As in A, but comparing the average response while the mice were stationary, to that while cholinergic axons were optogenetically stimulated. (D) As in C, but for layer 5 neurons. (E) Average calcium response of layer 2/3 neurons in visual cortex to visuomotor mismatch, without and with optogenetic stimulation of cholinergic axons in visual cortex. (F) As in E, but for layer 5 neurons. (G) Average calcium response of layer 2/3 neurons in visual cortex to locomotion onset in closed loop, without and with optogenetic stimulation of cholinergic axons in visual cortex. (H) As in G, but for layer 5 neurons.

      (3) To help the reader understand the experimental conditions in open loop experiments, please include average visual flow speed traces for each condition in Figure 5. 

      We have added the locomotion velocity and visual flow speeds to the corresponding conditions in Figure

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      (1) Authors' experimental designs have some caveats to definitely support their claims. Authors claimed that aged LT-HSCs have no myeloid-biased clone expansion using transplantation assays. In these experiments, authors used 10 HSCs and young mice as recipients. Given the huge expansion of old HSC by number and known heterogeneity in immunophenotypically defined HSC populations, it is questionable how 10 out of so many old HSCs (an average of 300,000 up to 500,000 cells per mouse; Mitchell et al., Nature Cell Biology, 2023) can faithfully represent old HSC population. The Hoxb5+ old HSC primary and secondary recipient mice data (Fig. 2C and D) support this concern. In addition, they only used young recipients. Considering the importance of inflammatory aged niche in the myeloid-biased lineage output, transplanting young vs old LT-HSCs into aged mice will complete the whole picture. 

      We sincerely appreciate your insightful comment regarding the existence of approximately 500,000 HSCs per mouse in older mice. To address this, we have conducted a statistical analysis to determine the appropriate sample size needed to estimate the characteristics of a population of 500,000 cells with a 95% confidence level and a ±5% margin of error. This calculation was performed using the finite population correction applied to Cochran’s formula.

      For our calculations, we used a proportion of 50% (p = 0.5), as it has been reported that approximately 50% of HSCs are myeloid-biased1,2. The formula used is as follows:

      N \= 500,000 (total population size)

      Z = 1.96 (Z-score for a 95% confidence level)

      p = 0.5 (expected proportion)

      e \= 0.05 (margin of error)

      Applying this formula, we determined that the required sample size is approximately 384 cells. This sample size ensures that the observed proportion in the sample will reflect the characteristics of the entire population. In our study, we have conducted functional experiments across Figures 2, 3, 5, 6, S3, and S6, with a total sample size of n = 126, which corresponds to over 1260 cells. While it would be ideal to analyze all 500,000 cells, this would necessitate the use of 50,000 recipient mice, which is not feasible. We believe that the number of cells analyzed is reasonable from a statistical standpoint. 

      References

      (1) Dykstra, Brad et al. “Clonal analysis reveals multiple functional defects of aged murine hematopoietic stem cells.” The Journal of experimental medicine vol. 208,13 (2011): 2691-703. doi:10.1084/jem.20111490

      (2) Beerman, Isabel et al. “Functionally distinct hematopoietic stem cells modulate hematopoietic lineage potential during aging by a mechanism of clonal expansion.” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America vol. 107,12 (2010): 5465-70. doi:10.1073/pnas.1000834107

      (2) Authors' molecular data analyses need more rigor with unbiased approaches. They claimed that neither aged LT-HSCs nor aged ST-HSCs exhibited myeloid or lymphoid gene set enrichment but aged bulk HSCs, which are just a sum of LTHSCs and ST-HSCs by their gating scheme (Fig. 4A), showed the "tendency" of enrichment of myeloid-related genes based on the selected gene set (Fig. 4D). Although the proportion of ST-HSCs is reduced in bulk HSCs upon aging, since STHSCs do not exhibit lymphoid gene set enrichment based on their data, it is hard to understand how aged bulk HSCs have more myeloid gene set enrichment compared to young bulk HSCs. This bulk HSC data rather suggest that there could be a trend toward certain lineage bias (although not significant) in aged LT-HSCs or ST-HSCs. Authors need to verify the molecular lineage priming of LT-HSCs and ST-HSCs using another comprehensive dataset. 

      Thank you for your thoughtful feedback regarding the lack of myeloid or lymphoid gene set enrichment in aged LT-HSCs and aged ST-HSCs, despite the observed tendency for myeloid-related gene enrichment in aged bulk HSCs.

      First, we acknowledge that the GSEA results vary among the different myeloid gene sets analyzed (Fig. 4, D–F; Fig. S4, C–D). Additionally, a comprehensive analysis of mouse HSC aging using multiple RNA-seq datasets reported that nearly 80% of differentially expressed genes show poor reproducibility across datasets[1]. These factors highlight the challenges of interpreting lineage bias in HSCs based solely on previously published transcriptomic data.

      Given these points, we believe that emphasizing functional experimental results is more critical than incorporating an additional dataset to support our claim. In this regard, we have confirmed that young and aged LT-HSCs have similar differentiation capacity (Figure 3), while myeloid-biased hematopoiesis is observed in aged bulk HSCs (Figure S3). These findings are further corroborated by independent functional experiments. We sincerely appreciate your insightful comments.

      Reference

      (1) Flohr Svendsen, Arthur et al. “A comprehensive transcriptome signature of murine hematopoietic stem cell aging.” Blood vol. 138,6 (2021): 439-451. doi:10.1182/blood.2020009729

      (3) Although authors could not find any molecular evidence for myeloid-biased hematopoiesis from old HSCs (either LT or ST), they argued that the ratio between LT-HSC and ST-HSC causes myeloid-biased hematopoiesis upon aging based on young HSC experiments (Fig. 6). However, old ST-HSC functional data showed that they barely contribute to blood production unlike young Hoxb5- HSCs (ST-HSC) in the transplantation setting (Fig. 2). Is there any evidence that in unperturbed native old hematopoiesis, old Hoxb5- HSCs (ST-HSC) still contribute to blood production?

      If so, what are their lineage potential/output? Without this information, it is hard to argue that the different ratio causes myeloid-biased hematopoiesis in aging context. 

      Thank you for the insightful and important question. The post-transplant chimerism of ST-HSCs was low in Fig. 2, indicating that transplantation induced a short-term loss of hematopoietic potential due to hematopoietic stress per cell. 

      To reduce this stress, we increased the number of HSCs in transplantation setting. In Fig. S6, old LT-HSCs and old ST-HSCs were transplanted in a 50:50 or 20:80 ratio, respectively. As shown in Fig. S6.D, the 20:80 group, which had a higher proportion of old ST-HSCs, exhibited a statistically significant increase in the lymphoid percentage in the peripheral blood post-transplantation. 

      These findings suggest that old ST-HSCs contribute to blood production following transplantation. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      While aspects of their work are fascinating and might have merit, several issues weaken the overall strength of the arguments and interpretation. Multiple experiments were done with a very low number of recipient mice, showed very large standard deviations, and had no statistically detectable difference between experimental groups. While the authors conclude that these experimental groups are not different, the displayed results seem too variable to conclude anything with certainty. The sensitivity of the performed experiments (e.g. Fig 3; Fig 6C, D) is too low to detect even reasonably strong differences between experimental groups and is thus inadequate to support the author's claims. This weakness of the study is not acknowledged in the text and is also not discussed. To support their conclusions the authors need to provide higher n-numbers and provide a detailed power analysis of the transplants in the methods section. 

      Response #2-1:

      Thank you for your important remarks. The power analysis for this experiment shows that power = 0.319, suggesting that more number may be needed. On the other hand, our method for determining the sample size in Figure 3 is as follows:

      (1) First, we checked whether myeloid biased change is detected in the bulk-HSC fraction (Figure S3). The results showed that the difference in myeloid output at 16 weeks after transplantation was statistically significant (young vs. aged = 7.2 ± 8.9 vs. 42.1 ± 35.5%, p = 0.01), even though n = 10.

      (2) Next, myeloid biased HSCs have been reported to be a fraction with high selfrenewal ability (2004, Blood). If myeloid biased HSCs increase with aging, the increase in myeloid biased HSCs in LT-HSC fraction would be detected with higher sensitivity than in the bulk-HSC fraction used in Figure S3.

      (3) However, there was no difference not only in p-values but also in the mean itself, young vs aged = 51.4±31.5% vs 47.4±39.0%, p = 0.82, even though n = 8 in Figure 3. Since there was no difference in the mean itself, it is highly likely that no difference will be detected even if n is further increased.

      Regarding Figure 6, we obtained a statistically significant difference and consider the sample size to be sufficient. In addition, we have performed various functional experiments (Figures 2, 5, 6 and S6), and have obtained consistent results that expansion of myeloid biased HSCs does not occur with aging in Hoxb5+HSCs fraction. Based on the above, we conclude that the LT-HSC fraction does not differ in myeloid differentiation potential with aging.

      As the authors attempt to challenge the current model of the age-associated expansion of myeloid-biased HSCs (which has been observed and reproduced by many different groups), ideally additional strong evidence in the form of single-cell transplants is provided. 

      Response #2-2:

      Thank you for the comments. As the reviewer pointed out, we hope we could reconfirm our results using single-cell level technology in the future.

      On the other hand, we have reported that the ratio of myeloid to lymphoid cells in the peripheral blood changes when the number of HSCs transplanted, or the number of supporting cells transplanted with HSCs, is varied[1-2]. Therefore, single-cell transplant data need to be interpreted very carefully to determine differentiation potential.

      From this viewpoint, future experiments will combine the Hoxb5 reporter system with a lineage tracing system that can track HSCs at the single-cell level over time. This approach will investigate changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their subsequent differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells. We have reflected this comment by adding the following sentences in the manuscript.

      [P19, L451] “In contrast, our findings should be considered in light of some limitations. In this report, we primarily performed ten to twenty cell transplantation assays. Therefore, the current theory should be revalidated using single-cell technology with lineage tracing system[3-4]. This approach will investigate changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their subsequent differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells.” 

      It is also unclear why the authors believe that the observed reduction of ST-HSCs relative to LT-HSCs explains the myeloid-biased phenotype observed in the peripheral blood. This point seems counterintuitive and requires further explanation. 

      Response #2-3:

      Thank you for your comment. We apologize for the insufficient explanation. Our data, as shown in Figures 3 and 4, demonstrate that the differentiation potential of LT-HSCs remains unchanged with age. Therefore, rather than suggesting that an increase in LT-HSCs with a consistent differentiation capacity leads to myeloidbiased hematopoiesis, it seems more accurate to highlight that the relative decrease in the proportion of ST-HSCs, which remain in peripheral blood as lymphocytes, leads to a relative increase in myeloid cells in peripheral blood and thus causes myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.

      However, if we focus on the increase in the ratio of LT-HSCs, it is also plausible to explain that “with aging, the proportion of LT-HSCs capable of long-term myeloid hematopoiesis increases. As a result, from 16 weeks after transplantation, the influence of LT-HSCs maintaining the long-term ability to produce myeloid cells becomes relatively more significant, leading to an increase in the ratio of myeloid cells in the peripheral blood and causing myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.”

      Based on my understanding of the presented data, the authors argue that myeloidbiased HSCs do not exist, as 

      a) they detect no difference between young/aged HSCs after transplant (mind low nnumbers and large std!!!); b) myeloid progenitors downstream of HSCs only show minor or no changes in frequency and c) aged LT-HSCs do not outperform young LT-HSC in myeloid output LT-HSCs in competitive transplants (mind low n-numbers and large std!!!). 

      However, given the low n-numbers and high variance of the results, the argument seems weak and the presented data does not support the claims sufficiently. That the number of downstream progenitors does not change could be explained by other mechanisms, for instance, the frequently reported differentiation short-cuts of HSCs and/or changes in the microenvironment. 

      Response #2-4:

      We appreciate the comments. As mentioned above, we will correct the manuscript regarding the sample size. Regarding the interpreting of the lack of increase in the percentage of myeloid progenitor cells in the bone marrow with age, it is instead possible that various confounding factors, such as differentiation shortcuts or changes in the microenvironment, are involved.

      However, even when aged LT-HSCs and young LT-HSCs are transplanted into the same recipient mice, the timing of the appearance of different cell fractions in peripheral blood is similar (Figure 3 of this paper). Therefore, we have not obtained data suggesting that clear shortcuts exist in the differentiation process of aged HSCs into neutrophils or monocytes. Additionally, it is currently consensually accepted that myeloid cells, including neutrophils and monocytes, differentiate from GMPs[1]. Since there is no changes in the proportion of GMPs in the bone marrow with age, we concluded that the differentiation potential into myeloid cells remains consistent with aging.

      "Then, we found that the myeloid lineage proportions from young and aged LT-HSCs were nearly comparable during the observation period after transplantation (Fig. 3, B and C)." 

      [Comment to the authors]: Given the large standard deviation and low n-numbers, the power of the analysis to detect differences between experimental groups is very low. Experimental groups with too large standard deviations (as displayed here) are difficult to interpret and might be inconclusive. The absence of clearly detectable differences between young and aged transplanted HSCs could thus simply be a false-negative result. The shown experimental results hence do not provide strong evidence for the author's interpretation of the data. The authors should add additional transplants and include a detailed power analysis to be able to detect differences between experimental groups with reasonable sensitivity. 

      Response #2-5:

      Thank you for providing these insights. Regarding the sample size, we have addressed this in Response #2-1.

      Line 293: "Based on these findings, we concluded that myeloid-biased hematopoiesis observed following transplantation of aged HSCs was caused by a relative decrease in ST-HSC in the bulk-HSC compartment in aged mice rather than the selective expansion of myeloid-biased HSC clones." 

      Couldn't that also be explained by an increase in myeloid-biased HSCs, as repeatedly reported and seen in the expansion of CD150+ HSCs? It is not intuitively clear why a reduction of ST-HSCs clones would lead to a myeloid bias. The author should try to explain more clearly where they believe the increased number of myeloid cells comes from. What is the source of myeloid cells if the authors believe they are not derived from the expanded population of myeloid-biased HSCs? t 

      Response #2-6:

      Thank you for pointing this out. We apologize for the insufficient explanation. We will explain using Figure 8 from the paper.

      First, our data show that LT-HSCs maintain their differentiation capacity with age, while ST-HSCs lose their self-renewal capacity earlier, so that only long-lived memory lymphocytes remain in the peripheral blood after the loss of selfrenewal capacity in ST-HSCs (Figure 8, upper panel). In mouse bone marrow, the proportion of LT-HSCs increases with age, while the proportion of ST-HSCs relatively decreases (Figure 8, lower panel and Figure S5). 

      Our data show that merely reproducing the ratio of LT-HSCs to ST-HSCs observed in aged mice using young LT-HSCs and ST-HSCs can replicate myeloidbiased hematopoiesis. This suggests that the increase in LT-HSC and the relative decrease in ST-HSC within the HSC compartment with aging are likely to contribute to myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.

      As mentioned earlier, since the differentiation capacity of LT-HSCs remain unchaged with age, it seems more accurate to describe that the relative decrease in the proportion of ST-HSCs, which retain long-lived memory lymphocytes in peripheral blood, leads to a relative increase in myeloid cells in peripheral blood and thus causes myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.

      However, focusing on the increase in the proportion of LT-HSCs, it is also possible to explain that “with aging, the proportion of LT-HSCs capable of long-term myeloid hematopoiesis increases. As a result, from 16 weeks after transplantation, the influence of LT-HSCs maintaining the long-term ability to produce myeloid cells becomes relatively more significant, leading to an increase in the ratio of myeloid cells in the peripheral blood and causing myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.”

      Recommendations for the authors: 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Summary: 

      Comment #2-1: While aspects of their work are fascinating and might have merit, several issues weaken the overall strength of the arguments and interpretation. Multiple experiments were done with a very low number of recipient mice, showed very large standard deviations, and had no statistically detectable difference between experimental groups. While the authors conclude that these experimental groups are not different, the displayed results seem too variable to conclude anything with certainty. The sensitivity of the performed experiments (e.g. Figure 3; Figure 6C, D) is too low to detect even reasonably strong differences between experimental groups and is thus inadequate to support the author's claims. This weakness of the study is not acknowledged in the text and is also not discussed. To support their conclusions the authors, need to provide higher n-numbers and provide a detailed power analysis of the transplants in the methods section. 

      Response #2-1

      Thank you for your important remarks. The power analysis for this experiment shows that power = 0.319, suggesting that more number may be needed. On the other hand, our method for determining the sample size in Figure 3 is as follows: 

      (1) First, we checked whether myeloid biased change is detected in the bulk-HSC fraction (Figure S3). The results showed that the difference in myeloid output at 16 weeks after transplantation was statistically significant (young vs. aged = 7.2 {plus minus} 8.9 vs. 42.1 {plus minus} 35.5%, p = 0.01), even though n = 10. 

      (2) Next, myeloid biased HSCs have been reported to be a fraction with high selfrenewal ability (2004, Blood). If myeloid biased HSCs increase with aging, the increase in myeloid biased HSCs in LT-HSC fraction would be detected with higher sensitivity than in the bulk-HSC fraction used in Figure S3. 

      (3) However, there was no difference not only in p-values but also in the mean itself, young vs aged = 51.4{plus minus}31.5% vs 47.4{plus minus}39.0%, p = 0.82, even though n = 8 in Figure 3. Since there was no difference in the mean itself, it is highly likely that no difference will be detected even if n is further increased. 

      Regarding Figure 6, we obtained a statistically significant difference and consider the sample size to be sufficient. In addition, we have performed various functional experiments (Figures 2, 5, 6 and S6), and have obtained consistent results that expansion of myeloid-biased HSCs does not occur with aging in Hoxb5+HSCs fraction. Based on the above, we conclude that the LT-HSC fraction does not differ in myeloid differentiation potential with aging. 

      [Comment for authors]  

      Paradigm-shifting extraordinary claims require extraordinary data. Unfortunately, the authors do not provide additional data to further support their claims. Instead, the authors argue the following: Because they were able to find significant differences between experimental groups in some experiments, the absence of significant differences in the results of other experiments must be correct, too. 

      This logic is in my view flawed. Any assay/experiment with highly variable data has a very low sensitivity to detect significant differences between groups. If, as in this case, the variance is as large as the entire dynamic range of the readout, it becomes impossible to be able to detect any difference. In these cases, it is not surprising and actually expected that the mean of the group is located close to the center of the dynamic range as is the case here (center of dynamic range: 50%). In other words, this means that the experiments are simply not reproducible. It is absolutely critical to remember that any experiment and its associated statistical analysis has 3 (!!!) instead of 2 possible outcomes: 

      (1) There is a statistically significant difference 

      (2) There is no statistically significant difference 

      (3) The results of the experiment are inconclusive because the replicates are too variable and the results are not reproducible.  

      While most of us are inclined to think about outcomes (1) or (2), outcome (3) cannot be neglected. While it might be painful to accept, the only way to address concerns about data reproducibility is to provide additional data, improve reproducibility, and lower the power of the analysis to an acceptable level (e.g. able to detect difference of 5-10% between groups). 

      Without going into the technical details, the example graph from the link below illustrates that with a power 0.319 as stated by the authors, approx. 25 transplants, instead of 8, would be required. 

      Typically, however, a power of 0.8 is a reasonable value for any power analysis (although it's not a very strong power either). Even if we are optimistic and assume that there might be a reasonably large difference between experimental groups (in the example above P2 = 0.6, which is actually not that large) we can estimate that we would need over 10 transplants per group to say with confidence that two experimental groups likely do not differ. With smaller differences, these numbers increase quickly to 20+ transplants per group as can be seen in the example graph using an Alpha of 0.1 above. 

      Further reading can be found here and in many textbooks or other online resources: https://power-analysis.com/effect_size.htm  https://tss.awf.poznan.pl/pdf-188978-110207? filename=Using%20power%20analysis%20to.pdf 

      Response:

      Thank you for your feedback. We fully agree with the reviewer that paradigmshifting claims must be supported by equally robust data. It has been welldocumented that the frequency of myeloid-biased HSCs increases with age, with reports indicating that over 50% of the HSC compartment in aged mice consists of myeloid-biased HSCs[1,2]. Based on this, we believe that if aged LT-HSCs were substantially myeloid-biased, the difference should be readily detectable.

      To further validate our findings, we showed the similar preliminary experiment. The resulting data are shown below (n = 8). 

      Author response image 1.

      (A) Experimental design for competitive co-transplantation assay. Ten CD45.2<sup>+</sup> young LT-HSCs and ten CD45.2<sup>+</sup> aged LT-HSCs were transplanted with 2 × 10<sup>5</sup> CD45.1<sup>+</sup>/CD45.2<sup>+</sup> supporting cells into lethally irradiated CD45.1<sup>+</sup> recipient mice (n \= 8). (B) Lineage output of young or aged LT-HSCs at 4, 8, 12, 16 weeks after transplantation. Each bar represents an individual mouse. *P < 0.05. **P < 0.01.

      While a slight increase in myeloid-biased hematopoiesis was observed in the aged LT-HSC fraction, the difference was not statistically significant. These new results are presented alongside the original Figure 3, which was generated using a larger sample size (n = 16).

      Author response image 2.

      (A) Experimental design for competitive co-transplantation assay. Ten CD45.2<sup>+</sup> young LT-HSCs and ten CD45.2<sup>+</sup> aged LT-HSCs were transplanted with 2 × 10<sup>5</sup> CD45.1<sup>+</sup>/CD45.2<sup>+</sup> supporting cells into lethally irradiated CD45.1<sup>+</sup> recipient mice (n \= 16). (B) Lineage output of young or aged LT-HSCs at 4, 8, 12, 16 weeks after transplantation. Each bar represents an individual mouse. 

      Consistent with the original data, aged LT-HSCs exhibited a lineage output that was nearly identical to that of young LT-HSCs. Nonetheless, as the reviewer rightly pointed out, we cannot completely exclude the possibility that subtle differences may exist but remain undetected. To address this, we have added the following sentence to the manuscript:  

      [P9, L200] “These findings unmistakably demonstrated that mixed/bulk-HSCs showed myeloid skewed hematopoiesis in PB with aging. In contrast, LT-HSCs maintained a consistent lineage output throughout life, although subtle differences between aged and young LT-HSCs may exist and cannot be entirely ruled out.”

      References

      (1) Dykstra, Brad et al. “Clonal analysis reveals multiple functional defects of aged murine hematopoietic stem cells.” The Journal of experimental medicine vol. 208,13 (2011): 2691-703. doi:10.1084/jem.20111490

      (2) Beerman, Isabel et al. “Functionally distinct hematopoietic stem cells modulate hematopoietic lineage potential during aging by a mechanism of clonal expansion.” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America vol. 107,12 (2010): 5465-70. doi:10.1073/pnas.1000834107

      Comment #2-3: It is also unclear why the authors believe that the observed reduction of STHSCs relative to LT-HSCs explains the myeloid-biased phenotype observed in the peripheral blood. This point seems counterintuitive and requires further explanation. 

      Response #2-3:  

      Thank you for your comment. We apologize for the insufficient explanation. Our data, as shown in Figures 3 and 4, demonstrate that the differentiation potential of LTHSCs remains unchanged with age. Therefore, rather than suggesting that an increase in LT-HSCs with a consistent differentiation capacity leads to myeloid biased hematopoiesis, it seems more accurate to highlight that the relative decrease in the proportion of ST-HSCs, which remain in peripheral blood as lymphocytes, leads to a relative increase in myeloid cells in peripheral blood and thus causes myeloid-biased hematopoiesis. However, if we focus on the increase in the ratio of LT-HSCs, it is also plausible to explain that "with aging, the proportion of LT-HSCs capable of long-term myeloid hematopoiesis increases. As a result, from 16 weeks after transplantation, the influence of LT-HSCs maintaining the long-term ability to produce myeloid cells becomes relatively more significant, leading to an increase in the ratio of myeloid cells in the peripheral blood and causing myeloid-biased hematopoiesis." 

      [Comment for authors] 

      While this interpretation of the data might make sense the shown data do not exclude alternative explanations. The authors do not exclude the possibility that LTHSCs expand with age and that this expansion in combination with an aging microenvironment drives myeloid bias. The authors should quantify the frequency [%] and absolute number of LT-HSCs and ST-HSCs in young vs. aged animals. Especially analyzing the abs. numbers of cells will be important to support their claims as % can be affected by changes in the frequency of other populations. 

      Thank you for your very important point. As this reviewer pointed out, we do not exclude the possibility that the combination of aged microenvironment drives myeloid bias. Additionally, we acknowledge that myeloid-biased hematopoiesis with age is a complex process likely influenced by multiple factors. We would like to discuss the mechanism mentioned as a future research direction. Thank you for the insightful feedback. Regarding the point about the absolute cell numbers mentioned in the latter half of the paragraph, we will address this in detail in our subsequent response (Response #2-4).

      Comment #2-4: Based on my understanding of the presented data, the authors argue that myeloid-biased HSCs do not exist, as a) they detect no difference between young/aged HSCs after transplant (mind low n-numbers and large std!); b) myeloid progenitors downstream of HSCs only show minor or no changes in frequency and c) aged LT-HSCs do not outperform young LT-HSCs in myeloid output LTHSCs in competitive transplants (mind low n-numbers and large std!). However, given the low n-numbers and high variance of the results, the argument seems weak and the presented data does not support the claims sufficiently. That the number of downstream progenitors does not change could be explained by other mechanisms, for instance, the frequently reported differentiation short-cuts of HSCs and/or changes in the microenvironment. 

      Response #2-4:  

      We appreciate the comments. As mentioned above, we will correct the manuscript regarding the sample size. Regarding the interpreting of the lack of increase in the percentage of myeloid progenitor cells in the bone marrow with age, it is instead possible that various confounding factors, such as differentiation shortcuts or changes in the microenviroment, are involved. However, even when aged LT-HSCs and young LT-HSCs are transplanted into the same recipient mice, the timing of the appearance of different cell fractions in peripheral blood is similar (Figure 3 of this paper). Therefore, we have not obtained data suggesting that clear shortcuts exist in the differentiation process of aged HSCs into neutrophils or monocytes. Additionally, it is currently consensually accepted that myeloid cells, including neutrophils and monocytes, differentiate from GMPs1. Since there are no changes in the proportion of GMPs in the bone marrow with age, we concluded that the differentiation potential into myeloid cells remains consistent with aging. 

      Reference 

      (1) Akashi K and others, 'A Clonogenic Common Myeloid Progenitor That Gives Rise to All Myeloid Lineages', Nature, 404.6774 (2000), 193-97. 

      [Comment for authors] 

      As the relative frequency of cell population can be misleading, the authors should compare the absolute numbers of progenitors in young vs. aged mice to strengthen their argument. It would also be helpful to quantify the absolute numbers and relative frequencies in WT mice to exclude the possibility the HoxB5-trimcherry mouse model suffers from unexpected aging phenotypes and the hematopoietic system differs from wild-type animals.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. We understand the importance of comparing the absolute numbers of progenitors in young versus aged mice to provide a more accurate representation of the changes in cell populations.

      Therefore, we quantified the absolute cell count of hematopoietic cells in the bone marrow using flow cytometry data. 

      Author response image 3.

      As previously reported, we observed a 10-fold increase in the number of pHSCs in aged mice compared to young mice. Additionally, our analysis revealed a statistically significant decrease in the number of Flk2+ progenitors and CLPs in aged mice. On the other hand, there was no statistically significant change in the number of myeloid progenitors between the two age groups. We appreciate the suggestion and hope that this additional information strengthens our argument and addresses your concerns.

      Comment #2-5:  

      "Then, we found that the myeloid lineage proportions from young and aged LT-HSCs were nearly comparable during the observation period after transplantation (Figure 3, B and C)." Given the large standard deviation and low n-numbers, the power of the analysis to detect differences between experimental groups is very low. Experimental groups with too large standard deviations (as displayed here) are difficult to interpret and might be inconclusive. The absence of clearly detectable differences between young and aged transplanted HSCs could thus simply be a false-negative result. The shown experimental results hence do not provide strong evidence for the author's interpretation of the data. The authors should add additional transplants and include a detailed power analysis to be able to detect differences between experimental groups with reasonable sensitivity. 

      Response #2-5:  

      Thank you for providing these insights. Regarding the sample size, we have addressed this in Response #2-1. 

      [Comment for authors]  

      As explained in detail in the response to #2-1 the provided arguments are not convincing. As the authors pointed out, the power of these experiments is too low to make strong claims. If the author does not intend to provide new data, the language of the manuscript needs to be adjusted to reflect this weakness. A paragraph discussing the limitations of the study mentioning the limited power of the data should be included beyond the above-mentioned rather vague statement that the data should be validated (which is almost always necessary anyway). 

      Thank you for your valuable comment. We agree with the importance of discussing potential limitations in our experimental design. In response to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have revised the manuscript to include the following sentences:

      [P19, L434] "In the co-transplantation assay shown in Figure 3, the myeloid lineage output derived from young and aged LT-HSCs was comparable (Young LT-HSC: 51.4 ± 31.5% vs. Aged LT-HSC: 47.4 ± 39.0%, p = 0.82). Although no significant difference was detected, the small sample size (n = 8) may limit the sensitivity of the assay to detect subtle myeloid-biased phenotypes."

      This addition acknowledges the potential limitations of our analysis and highlights the need for further investigation with larger cohorts.

      Comment #2-6:

      Line 293: "Based on these findings, we concluded that myeloid biased hematopoiesis observed following transplantation of aged HSCs was caused by a relative decrease in ST-HSC in the bulk-HSC compartment in aged mice rather than the selective expansion of myeloid-biased HSC clones." Couldn't that also be explained by an increase in myeloid-biased HSCs, as repeatedly reported and seen in the expansion of CD150+ HSCs? It is not intuitively clear why a reduction of STHSCs clones would lead to a myeloid bias. The author should try to explain more clearly where they believe the increased number of myeloid cells comes from. What is the source of myeloid cells if the authors believe they are not derived from the expanded population of myeloid-biased HSCs?

      Response #2-6:

      Thank you for pointing this out. We apologize for the insufficient explanation. We will explain using attached Figure 8 from the paper. First, our data show that LT-HSCs maintain their differentiation capacity with age, while ST-HSCs lose their self-renewal capacity earlier, so that only long-lived memory lymphocytes remain in the peripheral blood after the loss of self-renewal capacity in ST-HSCs (Figure 8, upper panel). In mouse bone marrow, the proportion of LT-HSCs increases with age, while the proportion of STHSCs relatively decreases (Figure 8, lower panel and Figure S5).

      Our data show that merely reproducing the ratio of LT-HSCs to ST-HSCs observed in aged mice using young LT-HSCs and ST-HSCs can replicate myeloid-biased hematopoiesis. This suggests that the increase in LT-HSC and the relative decrease in ST-HSC within the HSC compartment with aging are likely to contribute to myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.

      As mentioned earlier, since the differentiation capacity of LT-HSCs remain unchanged with age, it seems more accurate to describe that the relative decrease in the proportion of STHSCs, which retain long-lived memory lymphocytes in peripheral blood, leading to a relative increase in myeloid cells in peripheral blood and thus causes myeloid-biased hematopoiesis. However, focusing on the increase in the proportion of LT-HSCs, it is also possible to explain that "with aging, the proportion of LT-HSCs capable of long-term myeloid hematopoiesis increases. As a result, from 16 weeks after transplantation, the influence of LT-HSCs maintaining the long-term ability to produce myeloid cells become relatively more significant, leading to an increase in the ratio of myeloid cells in the peripheral blood and causing myeloid biased hematopoiesis."

      [Comment for authors]

      While I can follow the logic of the argument, my concerns about the interpretation remain as I see discrepancies in other findings in the published literature. For instance, what the authors call ST-HSCs, differs from the classical functional definition of ST-HSCs. It is thus difficult to relate the described observations to previous reports. ST-HSCs typically can contribute significantly to multiple lineages for several weeks (see for example PMID: 29625072). It is somewhat surprising that the ST-HSC in this study don't show this potential and loose their potential much quicker.

      The authors should thus provide a more comprehensive depth of immunophenotypic and molecular characterization to compare their LT-HSCs to ST-HSCs. For instance, are LT-HSCs CD41- HSCs? How do ST-HSCs differ in their surface marker expression from previously used definitions of ST-HSCs? A list of differentially expressed genes between young and old LT-HSCs and ST-HSCs should be done and will likely provide important insights into the molecular programs/markers (beyond the provided GO analysis, which seems superficial).

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. As the reviewer noted, there are indeed multiple definitions of ST-HSCs. We appreciate the opportunity to clarify our definitions of ST-HSCs. We define ST-HSCs functionally, rather than by surface antigens, which we believe is the most classical and widely accepted definition [1]. In our study, we define long-term hematopoietic stem cells (LT-HSCs) as those HSCs that continue to contribute to hematopoiesis after a second transplantation and possess long-term self-renewal potential. Conversely, we define short-term hematopoietic stem cells (ST-HSCs) as those HSCs that do not contribute to hematopoiesis after a second transplantation and only exhibit self-renewal potential in the short term. 

      Next, in the paper referenced by the reviewer[2], the chimerism of each fraction of ST-HSCs also peaked at 4 weeks and then decreased to approximately 0.1% after 12 weeks post-transplantation. Author response image 5 illustrates our ST-HSC donor chimerism in Figure 2. We believe that data in the paper referenced by the reviewer2 is consistent with our own observations of the hematopoietic pattern following ST-HSC transplantation, indicating a characteristic loss of hematopoietic potential 4 weeks after the transplantation. Furthermore, as shown in Figures 2D and 2F, the fraction of ST-HSCs does not exhibit hematopoietic activity after the second transplantation. Therefore, we consider this fraction to be ST-HSCs.

      Author response image 4.

      Additionally, the RNAseq data presented in Figures 4 and S4 revealed that the GSEA results vary among the different myeloid gene sets analyzed (Fig. 4, D–F; Fig. S4, C–D). Moreover, a comprehensive analysis of mouse HSC aging using multiple RNA-seq datasets reported that nearly 80% of differentially expressed genes show poor reproducibility across datasets[3]. From the above, while RNAseq data is indeed helpful, we believe that emphasizing functional experimental results is more critical than incorporating an additional dataset to support our claim. Thank you once again for your insightful feedback.

      References

      (1) Kiel, Mark J et al. “SLAM family receptors distinguish hematopoietic stem and progenitor cells and reveal endothelial niches for stem cells.” Cell vol. 121,7 (2005): 1109-21. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2005.05.026

      (2) Yamamoto, Ryo et al. “Large-Scale Clonal Analysis Resolves Aging of the Mouse Hematopoietic Stem Cell Compartment.” Cell stem cell vol. 22,4 (2018): 600-607.e4. doi:10.1016/j.stem.2018.03.013

      (3) Flohr Svendsen, Arthur et al. “A comprehensive transcriptome signature of murine hematopoietic stem cell aging.” Blood vol. 138,6 (2021): 439-451. doi:10.1182/blood.2020009729

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Although the topic is appropriate and the new model provides a new way to think about lineage-biased output observed in multiple hematopoietic contexts, some of the experimental design choices, as well as some of the conclusions drawn from the results could be substantially improved. Also, they do not propose any potential mechanism to explain this process, which reduces the potential impact and novelty of the study. 

      The authors have satisfactorily replied to some of my comments. However, there are multiple key aspects that still remain unresolved.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Comment #3-1,2:  

      Although the additional details are much appreciated the core of my original comments remains unanswered. There are still no details about the irradiation dose for each particular experiment. Is any transplant performed using a 9.1 Gy dose? If yes, please indicate it in text or figure legend. If not, please remove this number from the corresponding method section. 

      Again, 9.5 Gy (split in two doses) is commonly reported as sublethal. The fact that the authors used a methodology that deviates from the "standard" for the field makes difficult to put these results in context with previous studies. It is not possible to know if the direct and indirect effects of this conditioning method in the hematopoietic system have any consequences in the presented results. 

      Thank you for your clarification. We confirm that none of the transplantation experiments described were performed using a 9.1 Gy irradiation dose. We have therefore removed the mention of "9.1 Gy" from the relevant section of the Materials and Methods. We appreciate helpful suggestion to improve the clarity of the manuscript.

      [P22, L493] “12-24 hours prior to transplantation, C57BL/6-Ly5.1 mice, or aged C57BL/6J recipient mice were lethally irradiated with single doses of 8.7 Gy.”

      Regarding the reviewer’s concern about the radiation dose used in our experiments, we will address this point in more detail in our subsequent response (see Response #3-4).

      Comment #3-4(Original): When representing the contribution to PB from transplanted cells, the authors show the % of each lineage within the donor-derived cells (Figures 3B-C, 5B, 6B-D, 7C-E, and S3 B-C). To have a better picture of total donor contribution, total PB and BM chimerism should be included for each transplantation assay. Also, for Figures 2C-D and Figures S2A-B, do the graphs represent 100% of the PB cells? Are there any radioresistant cells?

      Response #3-4 (Original): Thank you for highlighting this point. Indeed, donor contribution to total peripheral blood (PB) is important information. We have included the donor contribution data for each figure above mentioned.

      In Figure 2C-D and Figure S2A-B, the percentage of donor chimerism in PB was defined as the percentage of CD45.1-CD45.2+ cells among total CD45.1-CD45.2+ and CD45.1+CD45.2+ cells as described in method section.

      Comment for our #3-4 response:  

      Thanks for sharing these data. These graphs should be included in their corresponding figures along with donor contribution to BM. 

      Regarding Figure2 C-D, as currently shown, the graphs only account for CD45.1CD45.2+ (donor-derived) and CD45.1+CD45.2+ (supporting-derived). What is the percentage of CD45.1+CD45.2- (recipient-derived)? Since the irradiation regiment is atypical, including this information would help to know more about the effects of this conditioning method. 

      Thank you for your insightful comment regarding Figure 2C-D. To address the concern that the reviewer pointed out, we provide the kinetics of the percentage of CD45.1+CD45.2- (recipient-derived) in Author response image 7.

      Author response image 5.

      As the reviewer pointed out, we observed the persistence of recipient-derived cells, particularly in the secondary transplant. As noted, this suggests that our conditioning regimen may have been suboptimal. In response, we will include the donor chimerism analysis in the total cells and add the following statement in the study limitations section to acknowledge this point:

      [P19, L439] “Additionally, in this study, we purified LT-HSCs using the Hoxb5 reporter system and employed a moderate conditioning regimen (8.7 Gy). To have a better picture of total donor contribution, total PB chimerism are presented in Figure S7 and we cannot exclude the possibility that these factors may have influenced the results. Therefore, it would be ideal to validate our findings using alternative LT-HSC markers and different conditioning regimens.”

      Comment #3-5: For BM progenitor frequencies, the authors present the data as the frequency of cKit+ cells. This normalization might be misleading as changes in the proportion of cKit+ between the different experimental conditions could mask differences in these BM subpopulations. Representing this data as the frequency of BM single cells or as absolute numbers (e.g., per femur) would be valuable.

      Response #3-5:

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment on this point. 

      Firstly, as shown in Supplemental Figures S1B and S1C, we analyze the upstream (HSC, MPP, Flk2+) and downstream (CLP, MEP, CMP, GMP) fractions in different panels. Therefore, normalization is required to assess the differentiation of HSCs from upstream to downstream.

      Additionally, the reason for normalizing by c-Kit+ is that the bone marrow analysis was performed after enrichment using the Anti-c-Kit antibody for both upstream and downstream fractions. Based on this, we calculated the progenitor populations as a frequency within the c-Kit positive cells. Next, the results of normalizing the whole bone marrow cells (live cells) are shown below. 

      Author response image 6.

      Similar to the results of normalizing c-Kit+ cells, myeloid progenitors remained unchanged, including a statistically significant decrease in CMP in aged mice. Additionally, there were no significant differences in CLP. In conclusion, similar results were obtained between the normalization with c-Kit and the normalization with whole bone marrow cells (live cells).

      However, as the reviewer pointed out, it is necessary to explain the reason for normalization with c-Kit. Therefore, we will add the following description.

      [P21, L502] For the combined analysis of the upstream (HSC, MPP, Flk2+) and downstream (CLP, MEP, CMP, GMP) fractions in Figures 1B, we normalized by cKit+ cells because we performed a c-Kit enrichment for the bone marrow analysis.

      Comment for our #3-5 response:

      I understand that normalization is necessary to compare across different BM populations. However, the best way would be to normalize to single cells. As I mentioned in my original comment, normalizing to cKit+ cells could be misleading, as the proportion of cKit+ cells could be different across the experimental conditions. Further, enriching for cKit+ cells when analyzing BM subpopulation frequencies could introduce similar potential errors. The enrichment would depend on the level of expression of cKit for each of these population, what would alter the final quantification. Indeed, CLP are typically defined as cKit-med/low. Thus, cKit enrichment would not be a great method to analyze the frequency of these cells. 

      The graph in the authors' response to my comment, show similar trend to what is represented Figure 1B for some populations. However, there are multiple statistically significant changes that disappear in this new version. This supports my original concern and, in consequence, I would encourage to represent this data as the frequency of BM single cells or as absolute numbers (e.g., per femur). 

      Thank you for your thoughtful follow-up comment. In response to the reviewer’s suggestion, we will represent the data as the frequency among total BM single cells. These revised graphs have been incorporated into the updated Figure 7F and corresponding figure legend have been revised accordingly to accurately reflect these representations. We appreciate your valuable input, which has helped us improve the clarity and rigor of our data presentation.

      Comment #3-6: Regarding Figure 1B, the authors argue that if myeloid-biased HSC clones increase with age, they should see increased frequency of all components of the myeloid differentiation pathway (CMP, GMP, MEP). This would imply that their results (no changes or reduction in these myeloid subpopulations) suggest the absence of myeloid-biased HSC clones expansion with age. This reviewer believes that differentiation dynamics within the hematopoietic hierarchy can be more complex than a cascade of sequential and compartmentalized events (e.g., accelerated differentiation at the CMP level could cause exhaustion of this compartment and explain its reduction with age and why GMP and MEP are unchanged) and these conclusions should be considered more carefully.

      Response #3-6:

      We wish to thank the reviewer for this comment. We agree with that the differentiation pathway may not be a cascade of sequential events but could be influenced by various factors such as extrinsic factors.

      In Figure 1B, we hypothesized that there may be other mechanisms causing myeloid-biased hematopoiesis besides the age-related increase in myeloid-biased HSCs, given that the percentage of myeloid progenitor cells in the bone marrow did not change with age. However, we do not discuss the presence or absence of myeloid-biased HSCs based on the data in Figure 1B. 

      Our newly proposed theories—that the differentiation capacity of LT-HSCs remains unchanged with age and that age-related myeloid-biased hematopoiesis is due to changes in the ratio of LT-HSCs to ST-HSCs—are based on functional experiment results. As the reviewer pointed out, to discuss the presence or absence of myeloid-biased HSCs based on the data in Figure 1B, it is necessary to apply a system that can track HSC differentiation at single-cell level. The technology would clarify changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells. The authors believe that those single-cell technologies will be beneficial in understanding the differentiation of HSCs. Based on the above, the following statement has been added to the text.

      [P19, L440] In contrast, our findings should be considered in light of some limitations. In this report, we primarily performed ten to twenty cell transplantation assays. Therefore, the current theory should be revalidated using single-cell technology with lineage tracing system1-2. This approach will investigate changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their subsequent differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells. 

      Comment for our #3-6 response:

      Thanks for the response. My original comments referred to the statement "On the other hand, in contrast to what we anticipated, the frequency of GMP was stable, and the percentage of CMP actually decreased significantly with age, defying our prediction that the frequency of components of the myeloid differentiation pathway, such as CMP, GMP, and MEP would increase in aged mice if myeloid-biased HSC clones increase with age (Fig. 1 B)" (lines #129-133). Again, the absence of an increase in CMP, GMP and MEP with age does not mean the absence of and increase in myeloid-biased HSC clones. This statement should be considered more carefully. 

      Thank you for the insightful comment. We agree that the absence of an increase in CMP, GMP and MEP with age does not mean the absence of an increase in myeloid-biased HSC clones. In our revised manuscript, we have refined the statement to acknowledge this nuance more clearly. The updated text now reads as follows:

      P6, L129] On the other hand, in contrast to what we anticipated, the frequency of GMP was stable, and the percentage of CMP actually decreased significantly with age, defying our prediction that the frequency of components of the myeloid differentiation pathway, such as CMP, GMP, and MEP may increase in aged mice, if myeloid-biased HSC clones increase with age. 

      Comment #3-7: Within the few recipients showing good donor engraftment in Figure 2C, there is a big proportion of T cells that are "amplified" upon secondary transplantation (Figure 2D). Is this expected?

      Response #3-7:

      We wish to express our deep appreciation to the reviewer for insightful comment on this point. As the reviewers pointed out, in Figure 2D, a few recipients show a very high percentage of T cells. The authors had the same question and considered this phenomenon as follows:

      (1) One reason for the very high percentage of T cells is that we used 1 x 107 whole bone marrow cells in the secondary transplantation. Consequently, the donor cells in the secondary transplantation contained more T-cell progenitor cells, leading to a greater increase in T cells compared to the primary transplantation.

      (2) We also consider that this phenomenon may be influenced by the reduced selfrenewal capacity of aged LT-HSCs, resulting in decreased sustained production of myeloid cells in the secondary recipient mice. As a result, long-lived memorytype lymphocytes may preferentially remain in the peripheral blood, increasing the percentage of T cells in the secondary recipient mice.

      We have discussed our hypothesis regarding this interesting phenomenon. To further clarify the characteristics of the increased T-cell count in the secondary recipient mice, we will analyze TCR clonality and diversity in the future.

      Comment for our #3-7 response:

      Thanks for the potential explanations to my question. This fact is not commonly reported in previous transplantation studies using aged HSCs. Could Hoxb5 label fraction of HSCs that is lymphoid/T-cell biased upon secondary transplantation? The number of recipients with high frequency of lymphoid cells in the peripheral blood (even from young mice) is remarkable. 

      Response:

      Thank you for your insightful suggestion. Based on this comment, we calculated the percentage of lymphoid cells in the donor fraction at 16 weeks following the secondary transplantation, which was 56.1 ± 25.8% (L/M = 1.27). According to the Müller-Sieburg criteria, lymphoid-biased hematopoiesis is defined as having an L/M ratio greater than 10. 

      Given our findings, we concluded that the Hoxb5-labeled fraction does not specifically indicate lymphoid-biased hematopoiesis. We sincerely appreciate the valuable input, which helped us to further clarify the interpretation of our results.

      Comment #3-8: Do the authors have any explanation for the high level of variabilitywithin the recipients of Hoxb5+ cells in Figure 2C?

      Response #3-8:

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment on this point. As noted in our previous report, transplantation of a sufficient number of HSCs results in stable donor chimerism, whereas a small number of HSCs leads to increased variability in donor chimerism1. Additionally, other studies have observed high variability when fewer than 10 HSCs are transplanted2-3. Based on this evidence, we consider that the transplantation of a small number of cells (10 cells) is the primary cause of the high level of variability observed.

      Comment for our #3-8 response:

      I agree that transplanting low number of HSC increases the mouse-to-mouse variability. For that reason, a larger cohort of recipients for this kind of experiment would be ideal. 

      Response:

      Thank you for the insightful comment. We agree that a larger cohort of recipients would be ideal for this type of experiment. In Figure 2, the difference between Hoxb5<suup>+</sup> and Hoxb5⁻ cells are robust, allowing for a clear statistical distinction despite the cohort size. However, we also recognize that a larger cohort would be necessary to detect more subtle differences, particularly in Figure 3. In response, we have added the following statement to the main text to acknowledge this limitation.

      P9, L200] These findings unmistakably demonstrated that mixed/bulk-HSCs showed myeloid skewed hematopoiesis in PB with aging. In contrast, LT-HSCs maintained a consistent lineage output throughout life, although subtle differences between aged and young LT-HSCs may exist and cannot be entirely ruled out.

      Comment #3-10: Is Figure 2G considering all primary recipients or only the ones that were used for secondary transplants? The second option would be a fairer comparison.

      Response #3-10:

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment on this point. We considered all primary recipients in Figure 2G to ensure a fair comparison, given the influence of various factors such as the radiosensitivity of individual recipient mice[1]. Comparing only the primary recipients used in the secondary transplantation would result in n = 3 (primary recipient) vs. n = 12 (secondary recipient). Including all primary recipients yields n = 11 vs. n = 12, providing a more balanced comparison. Therefore, we analyzed all primary recipient mice to ensure the reliability of our results.

      Comment for our #3-10 response:

      I respectfully disagree. Secondary recipients are derived from only 3 of the primary recipients. Therefore, the BM composition is determined by the composition of their donors. Including primary recipients that are not transplanted into secondary recipients for is not the fairest comparison for this analysis. 

      Thank you for your comment and for highlighting this important issue. We acknowledge the concern that including primary recipients that are not transplanted into secondary recipients is not the fairest comparison for this analysis. In response, we have reanalyzed the data using only the primary recipients whose bone marrow was actually transplanted into secondary recipients. 

      Author response image 7.

      Importantly, the reanalysis confirmed that the kinetics of myeloid cell proportions in peripheral blood were consistent between primary and secondary transplant recipients. We sincerely appreciate your thoughtful feedback, which has helped us improve the clarity.

      Comment #3-11: When discussing the transcriptional profile of young and aged HSCs, the authors claim that genes linked to myeloid differentiation remain unchanged in the LT-HSC fraction while there are significant changes in the STHSCs. However, 2 out of the 4 genes shown in Figure S4B show ratios higher than 1 in LT-HSCs.

      Response #3-11:

      Thank you for highlighting this important point. As the reviewer pointed out, when we analyze the expression of myeloid-related genes, some genes are elevated in aged LT-HSCs compared to young LT-HSCs. However, the GSEA analysis using myeloid-related gene sets, which include several hundred genes, shows no significant difference between young and aged LT-HSCs (see Figure S4C in this paper). Furthermore, functional experiments using the co-transplantation system show no difference in differentiation capacity between young and aged LT-HSCs (see Figure 3 in this paper). Based on these results, we conclude that LT-HSCs do not exhibit any change in differentiation capacity with aging.

      Comment for our #3-11 response:

      The authors used the data in Figure S4 to claim that "myeloid genes were tended to be enriched in aged bulk-HSCs but not in aged LT-HSCs compared to their respective controls" (this is the title of the figure; line # 1326). This is based on an increase in gene expression of CD150, vWF, Selp, Itgb3 in aged cells compared to young cells (Figure S4B). However, an increase in Selp and Itgb3 is also observed for LT-HSCs (lower magnitude, but still and increase). 

      Also, regarding the GSEA, the only term showing statistical significance in bulk HSCs is "Myeloid gene set", which does not reach significance in LT-HSCs, but present a trend for enrichment (q = 0.077). None of the terms in shown in this panel present statistical significance in ST-HSCs. 

      Thank you for your valuable point. As the reviewer noted, the current title may cause confusion. Therefore, we propose changing it to the following:

      [P52, L1331] “Figure S4. Compared to their respective young controls, aged bulk-HSCs exhibit greater enrichment of myeloid gene expression than aged LT-HSCs”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors aim to assess the effect of salt stress on root:shoot ratio, identify the underlying genetic mechanisms, and evaluate their contribution to salt tolerance. To this end, the authors systematically quantified natural variations in salt-induced changes in root:shoot ratio. This innovative approach considers the coordination of root and shoot growth rather than exploring biomass and the development of each organ separately. Using this approach, the authors identified a gene cluster encoding eight paralog genes with a domain-of-unknown-function 247 (DUF247), with the majority of SNPs clustering into SR3G (At3g50160). In the manuscript, the authors utilized an integrative approach that includes genomic, genetic, evolutionary, histological, and physiological assays to functionally assess the contribution of their genes of interest to salt tolerance and root development.

      Comments on revisions:

      As the authors correctly noted, variations across samples, genotypes, or experiments make achieving statistical significance challenging. Should the authors choose to emphasize trends across experiments to draw biological conclusions, careful revisions of the text, including titles and figure legends, will be necessary to address some of the inconsistencies between figures (see examples below). However, I would caution that this approach may dilute the overall impact of the work on SR3G function and regulation. Therefore, I strongly recommend pursuing additional experimental evidence wherever possible to strengthen the conclusions.

      (1) Given the phenotypic differences shown in Figures S17A-B, 10A-C, and 6A, the statement that "SR3G does not play a role in plant development under non-stress conditions" (lines 680-681) requires revision to better reflect the observed data.

      Thank you to the reviewer for the comment. We appreciate the acknowledgment that variations among experiments are inherent to biological studies. Figures 6A and S17 represent the same experiment, which initially indicated a phenotype for the sr3g mutant under salt stress. To ensure that growth changes were specifically normalized for stress conditions, we calculated the Stress Tolerance Index (Fig. 6B). In Figure 10, we repeated the experiment including all five genotypes, which supported our original observation that the sr3g mutant exhibited a trend toward reduced lateral root number under 75 mM NaCl compared to Col-0, although this difference was not significant (Fig. 10B). Additionally, we confirmed that the wrky75 mutant showed a significant reduction in main root growth under salt stress compared to Col-0, consistent with findings reported in The Plant Cell by Lu et al. 2023. For both main root length and lateral root number, we demonstrated that the double mutants of wrky75/sr3g displayed growth comparable to wild-type Col-0. This result suggests that the sr3g mutation compensates for the salt sensitivity of the wrky75 mutant.

      We completely agree with the reviewer that there is a variation in our results regarding the sr3g phenotype under control conditions, as presented in Fig. 6A/Fig. S17 and Fig. 10A-C. In Fig. 6A/Fig. S17, we did not observe any consistent trends in main root or lateral root length for the sr3g mutant compared to Col-0 under control conditions. However, in Fig. 10A-C, we observed a significant reduction in main root length, lateral root number, and lateral root length for the sr3g mutant under control conditions. We believe this may align with SR3G’s role as a negative regulator of salt stress responses. While loss of this gene benefits plants in coping with salt stress, it might negatively impact overall plant growth under non-stress conditions. This interpretation is further supported by our findings on the root suberization pattern in sr3g mutants under control conditions (Fig. 8B), where increased suberization in root sections 1 to 3, compared to Col-0, could inhibit root growth. While SR3G's role in overall plant fitness is intriguing, it is beyond the scope of this study. We cannot rule out the possibility that SR3G contributes positively to plant growth, particularly root growth. That said, we observed no differences in shoot growth between Col-0 and the sr3g mutant under control conditions (Fig. 7). Additionally, we calculated the Stress Tolerance Index for all aspects of root growth shown in Fig. 10 and presented it in Fig. S25.

      To address the reviewer request on rephrasing the lines 680-681 from"SR3G does not play a role in plant development under non-stress conditions" (lines 680-681) statement, this statement is found in lines 652-653 and corresponds to Fig. 7, where we evaluated rosette growth in the WT and sr3g mutant under both control and salt stress conditions. We did not observe any significant differences or even trends between the two genotypes under control conditions, confirming the accuracy of the statement. To clarify further, we have added “SR3G does not play a role in rosette growth and development under non-stress conditions”.

      (2) I agree with the authors that detecting expression differences in lowly expressed genes can be challenging. However, as demonstrated in the reference provided (Lu et al., 2023), a significant reduction in WRKY75 expression is observed in T-DNA insertion mutant alleles of WRKY75. In contrast, Fig. 9B in the current manuscript shows no reduction in WRKY75 expression in the two mutant alleles selected by the authors, which suggests that these alleles cannot be classified as loss-of-function mutants (line 745). Additionally, the authors note that the wrky75 mutant exhibits reduced main root length under salt stress, consistent with the phenotype reported by Lu et al. (2023). However, other phenotypic discrepancies exist between the two studies. For example, 1) Lu et al. (2023) report that w¬rky75 root length is comparable to WT under control conditions, whereas the current manuscript shows that wrky75 root growth is significantly lower than WT; 2) under salt stress, Lu et al. (2023) show that wrky75 accumulates higher levels of Na+, whereas the current study finds Na+ levels in wrky75 indistinguishable from WT. To confirm the loss of WRKY75 function in these T-DNA insertion alleles the authors should provide additional evidence (e.g., Western blot analysis).

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer acknowledging the challenge of detecting expression differences in lowly expressed genes, such as transcription factors. Transcription factors are typically expressed at lower levels compared to structural or enzymatic proteins, as they function as regulators where small quantities can have substantial effects on downstream gene expression.

      That said, we respectfully disagree with the reviewer’s interpretation that there is no reduction in WRKY75 expression in the two mutant lines tested in Fig. 9C. Among the two independent alleles examined, wrky75-3 showed a clear reduction in expression compared to WT Col-0 under both control and salt stress conditions. Using the Tukey test to compare all groups, we observed distinct changes in the assigned significance letters for each case:

      Col/root/control (cd) vs wrky75-3/root/control (cd): Although the same significance letter was assigned, we still observed a clear reduction in WRKY75 transcript abundance. More importantly, the variation in expression is notably lower compared to Col-0.

      Col/shoot/control (bcd) vs wrky75-3/shoot/control (a): This is significant reduction compared to Col

      Col/root/salt (cd) vs wrky75-3/root/salt (bcd): Once again, the reduction in WRKY75 transcript levels corresponds to changes in the assigned significance letters.

      Col/shoot/salt (bc) vs wrky75-3/shoot/salt (ab): Once again, the reduction in WRKY75 transcript levels corresponds to changes in the assigned significance letters.

      To address the reviewer’s comment regarding the significant reduction in WRKY75 expression observed in T-DNA insertion mutant alleles of WRKY75 in the reference by Lu et al., 2023, we would like to draw the reviewer’s attention to the following points:

      a) Different alleles: The authors in The Plant Cell used different alleles than those used in our study, with one of their alleles targeting regions upstream of the WRKY75 gene. While we identified one of their described alleles (WRKY75-1, SALK_101367) on the T-DNA express website, which targets upstream of WRKY75, the other allele (wrky75-25) appears to have been generated through a different mechanism (possibly an RNAi line) that is not defined in the Plant Cell paper and does not appear on the T-DNA express website. The authors mentioned they have received these seeds as gifts from other labs in the acknowledgement ”We thank Prof. Hongwei Guo (Southern University of Science and Technology, China) and Prof. Diqiu Yu (Yunnan University, China) for kindly providing the WRKY75<sub>pro</sub>:GUS, 35S<sub>pro</sub>:WRKY75-GFP, wrky75-1, and wrky75-25 seeds. We thank Man-cang Zhang (Electrophysiology platform, Henan University) for performing the NMT experiment”.

      However, in our study, we selected two different T-DNAs that target the coding regions. While this may explain slight differences in the observed responses, both studies independently link WRKY75 to salt stress, regardless of the alleles used. For your reference, we have included a screenshot of the different alleles used.

      Author response image 1.

      b) Different developmental stages: They measured WRKY75 expression in 5-day-old seedlings. In our experiment, we used seedlings grown on 1/2x MS for 4 days, followed by transfer to treatment plates with or without 75 mM NaCl for one week. As a result, we analyzed older plants (12 days old) for gene expression analysis. Despite the difference in developmental stage, we were still able to observe a reduction in gene expression.

      c) Different tissues: The authors of The Plant Cell used whole seedlings for gene expression analysis, whereas we separated the roots and shoots and measured gene expression in each tissue type individually. This approach is logical, as WRKY75 is a root cell-specific transcription factor with higher expression in the roots compared to the shoots, as demonstrated in our analysis (Fig. 9C).

      Based on the reasoning above, we did work with loss-of-function mutants of WRKY75, particularly wrky75-3. To more accurately reflect the nature of the mutation, we have changed the term "loss-of-function" to "knock-down" in line 717.

      The reviewer mentioned phenotypic discrepancies between the two studies. We agree that there are some differences, particularly in the magnitude of responses or expression levels. However, despite variations in the alleles used, developmental stages, and tissue types, both studies reached the same conclusion: WRKY75 is involved in the salt stress response and acts as a positive regulator. We have discussed the differences between our study and The Plant Cell in the section above, summarizing them into three main points: different alleles, different developmental stages, and different tissue types.

      To address the reviewer’s comment regarding "Lu et al. (2023) report that wrky75 root length is comparable to WT under control conditions, whereas the current manuscript shows that wrky75 root growth is significantly lower than WT": We evaluated root growth differently than The Plant Cell study. In The Plant Cell (Fig. 5, H-J), root elongation was measured in 10-day-old plants with a single time point measurement. They transferred five-day-old wild-type, wrky75-1, wrky75-25, and WRKY75-OE plants to 1/2× MS medium supplemented with 0 mM or 125 mM NaCl for further growth and photographed them 5 days after transfer. In contrast, our study used 4-day-old seedlings, which were transferred to 1/2 MS with or without 0, 75, or 125 mM salt for additional growth (9 days). Rather than measuring root growth only at the end, we scanned the roots every other day, up to five times, to assess root growth rates. Essentially, the precision of our method is higher as we captured growth changes throughout the developmental process, compared to the approach used in The Plant Cell. We do not underestimate the significance of the work conducted by other colleagues in the field, but we also recognize that each laboratory has its own approach and specific practices. This variation in experimental setup is intrinsic to biology, and we believe it is important to study biological phenomena in different ways. Especially as the common or contrasting conclusions reached by different studies, performed by different labs and using different experimental setups are shedding more light on reproducibility and gene contribution across different conditions, which is intrinsic to phenotypic plasticity, and GxE interactions.

      The Plant Cell used a very high salt concentration, starting at 125 mM, while we were more cautious in our approach, as such a high concentration can inhibit and obscure more subtle phenotypic changes.

      To address the reviewer’s comment on "Lu et al. (2023) show that wrky75 accumulates higher levels of Na+, whereas the current study finds Na+ levels in wrky75 indistinguishable from WT," we would like to highlight the differences in the methodologies used in both studies. The Plant Cell measured Na+ accumulation in the wrky75 mutant using xylem sap (Supplemental Figure S10), which appears to be a convenient and practical approach in their laboratory. In their experiment, wild-type and wrky75 mutant plants were grown in soil for 3 weeks, watered with either a mock solution or 100 mM NaCl solution for 1 day, and then xylem sap was collected for Na+ content analysis. In contrast, our study employed a different method to measure Na+ and K+ ion content, using Inductively Coupled Plasma Atomic Emission Spectroscopy (ICP-AES) for root and shoot Na+ and K+ measurements. Additionally, we collected samples after two weeks on treatment plates and focused on the Na+/K+ ratio, which we consider more relevant than net Na+ or K+ levels, as the ratio of these ions is a critical determinant of plant salt tolerance. With this in mind, we observed a considerable non-significant increase in the Na+/K+ ratio in the shoots of the wrky75-3 mutant (assigned Tukey’s letter c) compared to the Col-0 WT (assigned Tukey’s letters abc) under 125 mM salt, suggesting that this mutant is salt-sensitive. Importantly, the Na+/K+ ratio in the double wrky75/sr3g mutants was reduced to the WT level under the same salt conditions, further indicating that the salt sensitivity of wrky75 is mitigated by the sr3g mutation.

      Based on the reasons mentioned above, we believe that conducting additional experiments, such as Western blot analysis, is unnecessary and would not contribute new insights or alter the context of our findings.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Salt stress is a significant and growing concern for agriculture in some parts of the world. While the effects of sodium excess have been studied in Arabidopsis and (many) crop species, most studies have focused on Na uptake, toxicity and overall effects on yield, rather than on developmental responses to excess Na, per se. The work by Ishka and colleagues aims to fill this gap.

      Working from an existing dataset that exposed a diverse panel of A. thaliana accessions to control, moderate, and severe salt stress, the authors identify candidate loci associated with altering the root:shoot ratio under salt stress. Following a series of molecular assays, they characterize a DUF247 protein which they dub SR3G, which appears to be a negative regulator of root growth under salt stress.

      Overall, this is a well-executed study which demonstrates the functional role played by a single gene in plant response to salt stress in Arabidopsis.

      Review of revised manuscript:

      The authors have addressed my point-by-point comments to my satisfaction. In the cases where they have changed their manuscript language, clarified figures, or added analyses I have no further comment. In some cases, there is a fruitful back-and-forth discussion of methodology which I think will be of interest to readers.

      I have nothing to add during this round of review. I think that the paper and associated discussion will make a nice contribution to the field.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s recognition of the significance of our work to the field.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Lines 518-519: The statement that other DUF247s exhibit similar expression patterns to SR3G, suggesting their responsiveness to salt stress, is not fully supported by Fig. S14. Please clarify the specific similarities (and differences) in the expression patterns of the DUF247s shown in Fig. S14, as their expression appears to be spatially and temporally diverse. Additionally, the scale is missing in Fig. S14.

      We thank the reviewer. We fixed the text and added expression scales to Figure S14.

      Line 684, Fig. 6A should be 7A.

      Thanks. It is fixed.

      Line 686, Fig. 7A should be 7B.

      Thanks. It is fixed.

      Lines 721-723: The signal quantification in Fig. 8B does not support the claim that "in section one,..., sr3g-5 showed more suberization compared to Col-0." Given the variability and noise often associated with histological dyes such as Fluorol Yellow staining, conclusions should be cautiously grounded in robust signal quantification. Additionally, please specify the number of biological replicates used in both Fig. 8B and C.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments. We believe the statement in the text accurately reflects our results presented in Figure 8B, where we stated “non-significant, but substantially higher levels of root suberization in sr3g-5 compared to Col-0 in sections one to three of the root under control condition (Fig. 8B).” Therefore, we kept the statement and have included the number of biological replicates in the figure legend.

      Lines 731-732: Please provide a more detailed explanation of how the significant changes in suberin monomer levels align with the Fluorol Yellow staining results, and clarify how these findings support the proposed negative role of SR3G in root suberization.

      Fluorol Yellow is a lipophilic dye widely used to label suberin in plant tissues, specifically in roots in this study. Given the inherent variability in histological assays, we confirmed the increase in suberization using an alternative method, Gas Chromatography–Mass Spectrometry (GC-MS). Both approaches revealed elevated suberin levels in the sr3g mutant compared to Col-0. Since the overall suberin content was higher in the mutant under both control and salt stress conditions, we proposed that SR3G acts as a negative regulator of root suberization.

      Lines 686-688 and Figure S24: The authors calculated water mass as FW-DW. A more standard approach for calculating water content is (FW-DW)/FW x 100. Please update the text or adjust the calculation accordingly. Additionally, if the goal is to test differences between WT and the mutant within each condition, a t-test would be a more appropriate statistical method.

      We thank the reviewer. We added water content % to the figure S24. We kept the statistical test as it is as we wanted to be able to observe changes across conditions and genotypes.

      Lines 633-635 states that "No significant difference was observed between sr3g-4 and Col-0 (Fig. S18), except for the Stress Tolerance Index (STI) calculated using growth rates of lateral root length and number." However, based on the Figure S18 legend and statistical analysis (i.e., ns), it appears that the sr3g-4 mutant shows no alterations in root system architecture compared to Col-0. Please revise the text to accurately reflect the results of the statistical analysis.

      We thank the reviewer. We now fixed the text to reflect the result.

      Lines 698-707: The statistical analysis does not support the reported differences in the Na+/K+ ratio for the single and double mutants of sr3g-5 and wrky75-3 (Fig. 10D, where levels connected by the same letters indicate they are not significantly different). Furthermore, the conclusion that "the SR3G mutation indeed compensated for the increased Na+ accumulation observed in the wrky75 mutant under salt stress" is also based on non-significant differences (Fig. S25B). Please revise the text to accurately reflect the results of the statistical analysis. Additionally, since each mutant is compared to the WT, I recommend using Dunnett's test for statistical analysis.

      We thank the reviewer for their feedback. We have carefully revised the text to better support our findings. As previously mentioned, variations among samples are evident and are well-reflected across all our datasets. We have presented all data and focused on identifying trends within our samples to guide interpretation.

      We observed that the SR3G mutation effectively compensated for the increased Na+ accumulation observed in the wrky75 mutant under salt stress. A closer examination of the shoot Na+/K+ ratio under 125 mM salt shows that the wrky75 single mutant has a higher Na+/K+ ratio (indicated by the letter "c") compared to Col-0 (indicated by "abc") and the two double mutants (also indicated by "abc"). Therefore, we have retained the statistical analysis as originally conducted, and maintain our conclusions as is.

      Figure 6: data in panel C present the Na/K ratio, not Na+ content. Based on the statistical analysis of root Na+ levels presented in Fig. S17C, there is no significant difference between sr3g-5 and WT. Please update the title of Fig. 6. In addition, in panel A, the title of the Y-axis and figure legend should be "Lateral root growth rate" without the word length, and in panel C, the statistical analysis is missing.

      We thank the reviewer. We updated Fig. 6 title and fixed the Y-axis in panel A, and added statistical letters to panel C. Legend was updated to reflect the changes.

      Figure 7: Please clearly label the time points where significant differences between genotypes are observed for both early and late salt treatments. Was there a significant difference recorded between WT and sr3g-5 on day 0 under early salt stress? Such differences may arise from initial variations in plant size within this experiment, as indicated by Fig. 7B, where significant differences in rosette area are evident starting from day 0. Additionally, please indicate the statistical analysis in panel E.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We updated the figure with a statistical test added to the panel E. Although the difference between sr3g mutant and Col-0 is indeed significant in its growth rate at day 0, we would like to draw the attention of the reviewer that this growth rate was calculated over the 24 hours after adding salt stress. Therefore, this difference in growth rate is related to exposure to salt stress. Moreover, the growth rate between Col-0 and sr3g mutant does not differ in two other treatments (Control and Late Salt Stress) further supporting the conclusion that sr3g is affecting rosette size and growth rate only under early salt stress conditions.

      We have also added the Salt Tolerance Index calculation to Figure S24 as additional evidence, controlling for potential differences in size between Col-0 and sr3g mutant.

      Figure S17: statistical analysis is not indicated in panels A, B, and D.

      We thank the reviewer for spotting that. We updated the figure with a statistical test.

      Figures S21-23: The quality of these figures is insufficient, hindering the ability to effectively interpret the authors' results and main message. Furthermore, a Dunnett's test, rather than a t-test, is the appropriate statistical method for this analysis.

      We thank the reviewer for this observation. We have now added a high resolution figures for all supplemental figures, which should increase the resolution of the figures. As we are comparing all of the genotypes to Col-0 one-by-one - the results of individual t-tests are sufficient for this analysis.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      (1) Substantial revision of the claims and interpretation of the results is needed, especially in the setting of additional data showing enhanced erythrophagocytosis with decreased RBC lifespan.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback and suggestion for a substantial revision of the claims and interpretation of our results. We acknowledge the importance of considering additional data that shows enhanced erythrophagocytosis with decreased RBC lifespan. In response, we have revised our manuscript and incorporated additional experimental data to support and clarify our findings.

      (1) In our original manuscript, we reported a decrease in the number of splenic red pulp macrophages (RPMs) and phagocytic erythrocytes after hypobaric hypoxia (HH) exposure. This conclusion was primarily based on our observations of reduced phagocytosis in the spleen.

      (2) Additional experimental data on RBC labeling and erythrophagocytosis:

      • Experiment 1 (RBC labeling and HH exposure)

      We conducted an experiment where RBCs from mice were labeled with PKH67 and injected back into the mice. These mice were then exposed to normal normoxia (NN) or HH for 7 or 14 days. The subsequent assessment of RPMs in the spleen using flow cytometry and immunofluorescence detection revealed a significant decrease in both the population of splenic RPMs (F4/80hiCD11blo, new Figure 5A and C) and PKH67-positive macrophages after HH exposure (as depicted in new Figure 5A and C-E). This finding supports our original claim of reduced phagocytosis under HH conditions.

      Author response image 1.

      -Experiment 2 (erythrophagocytosis enhancement)

      To examine the effects of enhanced erythrophagocytosis, we injected Tuftsin after administering PKH67-labelled RBCs. Our observations showed a significant decrease in PKH67 fluorescence in the spleen, particularly after Tuftsin injection compared to the NN group. This result suggests a reduction in RBC lifespan when erythrophagocytosis is enhanced (illustrated in new Figure 7, A-B).

      Author response image 2.

      (3) Revised conclusions:

      • The additional data from these experiments support our original findings by providing a more comprehensive view of the impact of HH exposure on splenic erythrophagocytosis.

      • The decrease in phagocytic RPMs and phagocytic erythrocytes after HH exposure, along with the observed decrease in RBC lifespan following enhanced erythrophagocytosis, collectively suggest a more complex interplay between hypoxia, erythrophagocytosis, and RBC lifespan than initially interpreted.

      We think that these revisions and additional experimental data provide a more robust and detailed understanding of the effects of HH on splenic erythrophagocytosis and RBCs lifespan. We hope that these changes adequately address the concerns raised and strengthen the conclusions drawn in our manuscript.

      (2) F4/80 high; CD11b low are true RPMs which the cells which the authors are presenting, i.e. splenic monocytes / pre-RPMs. To discuss RPM function requires the presentation of these cells specifically rather than general cells in the proper area of the spleen.

      Thank you for your feedback requesting a substantial revision of our claims and interpretation, particularly considering additional data showing enhanced erythrophagocytosis with decreased RBC lifespan. In response, we have thoroughly revised our manuscript and included new experimental data that further elucidate the effects of HH on RPMs and erythrophagocytosis.

      (1) Re-evaluation of RPMs population after HH exposure:

      • Flow cytometry analysis (new Figure 3G, Figure 5A and B): We revisited the analysis of RPMs (F4/80hiCD11blo) in the spleen after 7 and 14 days of HH exposure. Our revised flow cytometry data consistently showed a significant decrease in the RPMs population post-HH exposure, reinforcing our initial findings.

      Author response image 3.

      Author response image 4.

      • In situ expression of RPMs (Figure S1, A-D):

      We further confirmed the decreased population of RPMs through in situ co-staining with F4/80 and CD11b, and F4/80 and CD68, in spleen tissues. These results clearly demonstrated a significant reduction in F4/80hiCD11blo (Figure S1, A and B) and F4/80hiCD68hi (Figure S1, C and D) cells following HH exposure.

      Author response image 5.

      (2) Single-cell sequencing analysis of splenic RPMs:

      • We conducted a single-cell sequencing analysis of spleen samples post 7 days of HH exposure (Figure S2, A-C). This analysis revealed a notable shift in the distribution of RPMs, predominantly associated with Cluster 0 under NN conditions, to a reduced presence in this cluster after HH exposure.

      • Pseudo-time series analysis indicated a transition pattern change in spleen RPMs, with a shift from Cluster 2 and Cluster 1 towards Cluster 0 under NN conditions, and a reverse transition following HH exposure (Figure S2, B and D). This finding implies a decrease in resident RPMs in the spleen under HH conditions.

      (3) Consolidated findings and revised interpretation:

      • The comprehensive analysis of flow cytometry, in situ staining, and single-cell sequencing data consistently indicates a significant reduction in the number of RPMs following HH exposure.

      • These findings, taken together, strongly support the revised conclusion that HH exposure leads to a decrease in RPMs in the spleen, which in turn may affect erythrophagocytosis and RBC lifespan.

      Author response image 6.

      In conclusion, our revised manuscript now includes additional experimental data and analyses, strengthening our claims and providing a more nuanced interpretation of the impact of HH on spleen RPMs and related erythrophagocytosis processes. We believe these revisions and additional data address your concerns and enhance the scientific validity of our study.

      (3) RBC retention in the spleen should be measured anyway quantitatively, eg, with proper flow cytometry, to determine whether it is increased or decreased.

      Thank you for your query regarding the quantitative measurement of RBC retention in the spleen, particularly in relation to HH exposure. We have utilized a combination of techniques, including flow cytometry and histological staining, to investigate this aspect comprehensively. Below is a summary of our findings and methodology.

      (1) Flow cytometry analysis of labeled RBCs:

      • Our study employed both NHS-biotin (new Figure 4, A-D) and PKH67 labeling (new Figure 4, E-H) to track RBCs in mice exposed to HH. Flow cytometry results from these experiments (new Figure 4, A-H) showed a decrease in the proportion of labeled RBCs over time, both in the blood and spleen. Notably, there was a significantly greater reduction in the amplitude of fluorescently labeled RBCs after NN exposure compared to the reduced amplitude of fluorescently labeled RBCs observed in blood and spleen under HH exposure. The observed decrease in labeled RBCs was initially counterintuitive, as we expected an increase in RBC retention due to reduced erythrophagocytosis. However, this decrease can be attributed to the significantly increased production of RBCs following HH exposure, diluting the proportion of labeled cells.

      • Specifically, for blood, the biotin-labeled RBCs decreased by 12.06% under NN exposure and by 7.82% under HH exposure, while the PKH67-labeled RBCs decreased by 9.70% under NN exposure and by 4.09% under HH exposure. For spleen, the biotin-labeled RBCs decreased by 3.13% under NN exposure and by 0.46% under HH exposure, while the PKH67-labeled RBCs decreased by 1.16% under NN exposure and by 0.92% under HH exposure. These findings suggest that HH exposure leads to a decrease in the clearance rate of RBCs.

      Author response image 7.

      (2) Detection of erythrophagocytosis in spleen:

      To assess erythrophagocytosis directly, we labeled RBCs with PKH67 and analyzed their uptake by splenic macrophages (F4/80hi) after HH exposure. Our findings (new Figure 5, D-E) indicated a decrease in PKH67-positive macrophages in the spleen, suggesting reduced erythrophagocytosis.

      Author response image 8.

      (3) Flow cytometry analysis of RBC retention:

      Our flow cytometry analysis revealed a decrease in PKH67-positive RBCs in both blood and spleen (Figure S4). We postulated that this was due to increased RBC production after HH exposure. However, this method might not accurately reflect RBC retention, as it measures the proportion of PKH67-labeled RBCs relative to the total number of RBCs, which increased after HH exposure.

      Author response image 9.

      (4) Histological and immunostaining analysis:

      Histological examination using HE staining and band3 immunostaining in situ (new Figure 6, A-D, and G-H) revealed a significant increase in RBC numbers in the spleen after HH exposure. This was further confirmed by detecting retained RBCs in splenic single cells using Wright-Giemsa composite stain (new Figure 6, E and F) and retained PKH67-labelled RBCs in spleen (new Figure 6, I and J).

      Author response image 10.

      (5) Interpreting the data:

      The comprehensive analysis suggests a complex interplay between increased RBC production and decreased erythrophagocytosis in the spleen following HH exposure. While flow cytometry indicated a decrease in the proportion of labeled RBCs, histological and immunostaining analyses demonstrated an actual increase in RBCs retention in the spleen. These findings collectively suggest that while the overall RBCs production is upregulated following HH exposure, the spleen's capacity for erythrophagocytosis is concurrently diminished, leading to increased RBCs retention.

      (6) Conclusion:

      Taken together, our results indicate a significant increase in RBCs retention in the spleen post-HH exposure, likely due to reduced residual RPMs and erythrophagocytosis. This conclusion is supported by a combination of flow cytometry, histological staining, and immunostaining techniques, providing a comprehensive view of RBC dynamics under HH conditions. We think these findings offer a clear quantitative measure of RBC retention in the spleen, addressing the concerns raised in your question.

      (4) Numerous other methodological problems as listed below.

      We appreciate your question, which highlights the importance of using multiple analytical approaches to understand complex physiological processes. Please find below our point-by-point response to the methodological comments.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Decreased BM and spleen monocytes d/t increased liver monocyte migration is unclear. there is no evidence that this happens or why it would be a reasonable hypothesis, even in splenectomized mice.

      Thank you for highlighting the need for further clarification and justification of our hypothesized decrease in BM and spleen monocytes due to increased monocyte migration to the liver, particularly in the context of splenectomized mice. Indeed, our study has not explicitly verified an augmentation in mononuclear cell migration to the liver in splenectomized mice.

      Nonetheless, our investigations have revealed a notable increase in monocyte migration to the liver after HH exposure. Noteworthy is our discovery of a significant upregulation in colony stimulating factor-1 (CSF-1) expression in the liver, observed after both 7 and 14 days of HH exposure (data not included). This observation was substantiated through flow cytometry analysis (as depicted in Figure S4), which affirmed an enhanced migration of monocytes to the liver. Specifically, we noted a considerable increase in the population of transient macrophages, monocytes, and Kupffer cells in the liver following HH exposure.

      Author response image 11.

      Considering these findings, we hypothesize that hypoxic conditions may activate a compensatory mechanism that directs monocytes towards the liver, potentially linked to the liver’s integral role in the systemic immune response. In accordance with these insights, we intend to revise our manuscript to reflect the speculative nature of this hypothesis more accurately, and to delineate the strategies we propose for its further empirical investigation. This amendment ensures that our hypothesis is presented with full consideration of its speculative basis, supported by a coherent framework for future validation.

      (2) While F4/80+CD11b+ population is decreased, this is mainly driven by CD11b and F4/80+ alone population is significantly increased. This is counter to the hypothesis.

      Thank you for addressing the apparent discrepancy in our findings concerning the F4/80+CD11b+ population and the increase in the F4/80+ alone population, which seems to contradict our initial hypothesis. Your observation is indeed crucial for the integrity of our study, and we appreciate the opportunity to clarify this matter.

      (1) Clarification of flow cytometry results:

      • In response to the concerns raised, we revisited our flow cytometry experiments with a focus on more clearly distinguishing the cell populations. Our initial graph had some ambiguities in cell grouping, which might have led to misinterpretations.

      • The revised flow cytometry analysis, specifically aimed at identifying red pulp macrophages (RPMs) characterized as F4/80hiCD11blo in the spleen, demonstrated a significant decrease in the F4/80 population. This finding is now in alignment with our immunofluorescence results.

      Author response image 12.

      Author response image 13.

      (2) Revised data and interpretation:

      • The results presented in new Figure 3G and Figure 5 (A and B) consistently indicate a notable reduction in the RPMs population following HH exposure. This supports our revised understanding that HH exposure leads to a decrease in the specific macrophage subset (F4/80hiCD11blo) in the spleen.

      We’ve updated our manuscript to reflect these new findings and interpretations. The revised manuscript details the revised flow cytometry analysis and discusses the potential mechanisms behind the observed changes in macrophage populations.

      (3) HO-1 expression cannot be used as a surrogate to quantify number of macrophages as the expression per cell can decrease and give the same results. In addition, the localization of effect to the red pulp is not equivalent to an assertion that the conclusion applies to macrophages given the heterogeneity of this part of the organ and the spleen in general.

      Thank you for your insightful comments regarding the use of HO-1 expression as a surrogate marker for quantifying macrophage numbers, and for pointing out the complexity of attributing changes in HO-1 expression specifically to macrophages in the splenic red pulp. Your observations are indeed valid and warrant a detailed response.

      (1) Role of HO-1 in macrophage activity:

      • In our study, HO-1 expression was not utilized as a direct marker for quantifying macrophages. Instead, it was considered an indicator of macrophage activity, particularly in relation to erythrophagocytosis. HO-1, being upregulated in response to erythrophagocytosis, serves as an indirect marker of this process within splenic macrophages.

      • The rationale behind this approach was that increased HO-1 expression, induced by erythrophagocytosis in the spleen’s red pulp, could suggest an augmentation in the activity of splenic macrophages involved in this process.

      (2) Limitations of using HO-1 as an indicator:

      • We acknowledge your point that HO-1 expression per cell might decrease, potentially leading to misleading interpretations if used as a direct quantifier of macrophage numbers. The variability in HO-1 expression per cell indeed presents a limitation in using it as a sole indicator of macrophage quantity.

      • Furthermore, your observation about the heterogeneity of the spleen, particularly the red pulp, is crucial. The red pulp is a complex environment with various cell types, and asserting that changes in HO-1 expression are exclusive to macrophages could oversimplify this complexity.

      (3) Addressing the concerns:

      • To address these concerns, we propose to supplement our HO-1 expression data with additional specific markers for macrophages. This would help in correlating HO-1 expression more accurately with macrophage numbers and activity.

      • We also plan to conduct further studies to delineate the specific cell types in the red pulp contributing to HO-1 expression. This could involve techniques such as immunofluorescence or immunohistochemistry, which would allow us to localize HO-1 expression to specific cell populations within the splenic red pulp.

      We’ve revised our manuscript to clarify the role of HO-1 expression as an indirect marker of erythrophagocytosis and to acknowledge its limitations as a surrogate for quantifying macrophage numbers.

      (4) line 63-65 is inaccurate as red cell homeostasis reaches a new steady state in chronic hypoxia.

      Thank you for pointing out the inaccuracy in lines 63-65 of our manuscript regarding red cell homeostasis in chronic hypoxia. Your feedback is invaluable in ensuring the accuracy and scientific integrity of our work. We’ve revised lines 63-65 to accurately reflect the understanding.

      (5) Eryptosis is not defined in the manuscript.

      Thank you for highlighting the omission of a definition for eryptosis in our manuscript. We acknowledge the significance of precisely defining such key terminologies, particularly when they play a crucial role in the context of our research findings. Eryptosis, a term referenced in our study, is a specialized form of programmed cell death unique to erythrocytes. Similar with apoptosis in other cell types, eryptosis is characterized by distinct physiological changes including cell shrinkage, membrane blebbing, and the externalization of phosphatidylserine on the erythrocyte surface. These features are indicative of the RBCs lifecycle and its regulated destruction process.

      However, it is pertinent to note that our current study does not extensively delve into the mechanisms or implications of eryptosis. Our primary focus has been to elucidate the effects of HH exposure on the processes of splenic erythrophagocytosis and the resultant impact on the lifespan of RBCs. Given this focus, and to maintain the coherence and relevance of our manuscript, we have decided to exclude specific discussions of eryptosis from our revised manuscript. This decision aligns with our aim to provide a clear and concentrated exploration of the influence of HH exposure on RBCs dynamics and splenic function.

      We appreciate your input, which has significantly contributed to enhancing the clarity and accuracy of our manuscript. The revision ensures that our research is presented with a focused scope, aligning closely with our experimental investigations and findings.

      (6) Physiologically, there is no evidence that there is any "free iron" in cells, making line 89 point inaccurate.

      Thank you for highlighting the concern regarding the reference to "free iron" in cells in line 89 of our manuscript. The term "free iron" in our manuscript was intended to refer to divalent iron (Fe2+), rather than unbound iron ions freely circulating within cells. We acknowledge that the term "free iron" might lead to misconceptions, as it implies the presence of unchelated iron, which is not physiologically common due to the potential for oxidative damage. To rectify this and provide clarity, we’ve revised line 89 of our manuscript to reflect our meaning more accurately. Instead of "free iron," we use "divalent iron (Fe2+)" to avoid any misunderstanding regarding the state of iron in cells. We also ensure that any implications drawn from the presence of Fe2+ in cells are consistent with current scientific literature and understanding.

      (7) Fig 1f no stats

      We appreciate your critical review and suggestions, which help in improving the accuracy and clarity of our research. We’ve revised statistic diagram of new Figure 1F.

      (8) Splenectomy experiments demonstrate that erythrophagocytosis is almost completely replaced by functional macrophages in other tissues (likely Kupffer cells in the liver). there is only a minor defect and no data on whether it is in fact the liver or other organs that provide this replacement function and makes the assertions in lines 345-349 significantly overstated.

      Thank you for your critical assessment of our interpretation of the splenectomy experiments, especially concerning the role of erythrophagocytosis by macrophages in other tissues, such as Kupffer cells in the liver. We appreciate your observation that our assertions may be overstated and acknowledge the need for more specific data to identify which organs compensate for the loss of splenic erythrophagocytosis.

      (1) Splenectomy experiment findings:

      • Our findings in Figure 2D do indicate that in the splenectomized group under NN conditions, erythrophagocytosis is substantially compensated for by functional macrophages in other tissues. This is an important observation that highlights the body's ability to adapt to the loss of splenic function.

      • However, under HH conditions, our data suggest that the spleen plays an important role in managing erythrocyte turnover, as indicated by the significant impact of splenectomy on erythrophagocytosis and subsequent erythrocyte dynamics.

      (2) Addressing the lack of specific organ identification:

      • We acknowledge that our study does not definitively identify which organs, such as the liver or others, take over the erythrophagocytosis function post-splenectomy. This is an important aspect that needs further investigation.

      • To address this, we also plan to perform additional experiments that could more accurately point out the specific tissues compensating for the loss of splenic erythrophagocytosis. This could involve tracking labeled erythrocytes or using specific markers to identify macrophages actively engaged in erythrophagocytosis in various organs.

      (3) Revising manuscript statements:

      Considering your feedback, we’ve revised the statements in lines 345-349 (lines 378-383 in revised manuscript) to enhance the scientific rigor and clarity of our research presentation.

      (9) M1 vs M2 macrophage experiments are irrelevant to the main thrust of the manuscript, there are no references to support the use of only CD16 and CD86 for these purposes, and no stats are provided. It is also unclear why bone marrow monocyte data is presented and how it is relevant to the rest of the manuscript.

      Thank you for your critical evaluation of the relevance and presentation of the M1 vs. M2 macrophage experiments in our manuscript. We appreciate your insights, especially regarding the use of specific markers and the lack of statistical analysis, as well as the relevance of bone marrow monocyte data to our study's main focus.

      (1) Removal of M1 and M2 macrophage data:

      Based on your feedback and our reassessment, we agree that the results pertaining to M1 and M2 macrophages did not align well with the main objectives of our manuscript. Consequently, we have decided to remove the related content on M1 and M2 macrophages from the revised manuscript. This decision was made to ensure that our manuscript remains focused and coherent, highlighting our primary findings without the distraction of unrelated or insufficiently supported data.

      The use of only CD16 and CD86 markers for M1 and M2 macrophage characterization, without appropriate statistical analysis, was indeed a methodological limitation. We recognize that a more comprehensive set of markers and rigorous statistical analysis would be necessary for a meaningful interpretation of M1/M2 macrophage polarization. Furthermore, the relevance of these experiments to the central theme of our manuscript was not adequately established. Our study primarily focuses on erythrophagocytosis and red pulp macrophage dynamics under hypobaric hypoxia, and the M1/M2 polarization aspect did not contribute significantly to this narrative.

      (2) Clarification on bone marrow monocyte data:

      Regarding the inclusion of bone marrow monocyte data, we acknowledge that its relevance to the main thrust of the manuscript was not clearly articulated. In the revised manuscript, we provide a clearer rationale for its inclusion and how it relates to our primary objectives.

      (3) Commitment to clarity and relevance:

      We are committed to ensuring that every component of our manuscript contributes meaningfully to our overall objectives and research questions. Your feedback has been instrumental in guiding us to streamline our focus and present our findings more effectively.

      We appreciate your valuable feedback, which has led to a more focused and relevant presentation of our research. These changes enhance the clarity and impact of our manuscript, ensuring that it accurately reflects our key research findings.

      (10) Biotinolated RBC clearance is enhanced, demonstrating that RBC erythrophagocytosis is in fact ENHANCED, not diminished, calling into question the founding hypothesis that the manuscript proposes.

      Thank you for your critical evaluation of our data on biotinylated RBC clearance, which suggests enhanced erythrophagocytosis under HH conditions. This observation indeed challenges our founding hypothesis that erythrophagocytosis is diminished in this setting. Below is a summary of our findings and methodology.

      (1) Interpretation of RBC labeling results:

      Both the previous results of NHS-biotin labeled RBCs (new Figure 4, A-D) and the current results of PKH67-labeled RBCs (new Figure 4, E-H) demonstrated a decrease in the number of labeled RBCs with an increase in injection time. The production of RBCs, including bone marrow and spleen production, was significantly increased following HH exposure, resulting in a consistent decrease in the proportion of labeled RBCs via flow cytometry detection both in the blood and spleen of mice compared to the NN group. However, compared to the reduced amplitude of fluorescently labeled RBCs observed in blood and spleen under NN exposure, there was a significantly weaker reduction in the amplitude of fluorescently labeled RBCs after HH exposure. Specifically, for blood, the biotin-labeled RBCs decreased by 12.06% under NN exposure and by 7.82% under HH exposure, while the PKH67-labeled RBCs decreased by 9.70% under NN exposure and by 4.09% under HH exposure. For spleen, the biotin-labeled RBCs decreased by 3.13% under NN exposure and by 0.46% under HH exposure, while the PKH67-labeled RBCs decreased by 1.16% under NN exposure and by 0.92% under HH exposure.

      Author response image 14.

      (2) Increased RBCs production under HH conditions:

      It's important to note that RBCs production, including from bone marrow and spleen, was significantly increased following HH exposure. This increase in RBCs production could contribute to the decreased proportion of labeled RBCs observed in flow cytometry analyses, as there are more unlabeled RBCs diluting the proportion of labeled cells in the blood and spleen.

      (3) Analysis of erythrophagocytosis in RPMs:

      Our analysis of PKH67-labeled RBCs content within RPMs following HH exposure showed a significant reduction in the number of PKH67-positive RPMs in the spleen (new Figure 5). This finding suggests a decrease in erythrophagocytosis by RPMs under HH conditions.

      Author response image 15.

      (4) Reconciling the findings:

      The apparent contradiction between enhanced RBC clearance (suggested by the reduced proportion of labeled RBCs) and reduced erythrophagocytosis in RPMs (indicated by fewer PKH67-positive RPMs) may be explained by the increased overall production of RBCs under HH. This increased production could mask the actual erythrophagocytosis activity in terms of the proportion of labeled cells. Therefore, while the proportion of labeled RBCs decreases more significantly under HH conditions, this does not necessarily indicate an enhanced erythrophagocytosis rate, but rather an increased dilution effect due to higher RBCs turnover.

      (5) Revised interpretation and manuscript changes:

      Given these factors, we update our manuscript to reflect this detailed interpretation and clarify the implications of the increased RBCs production under HH conditions on our observations of labeled RBCs clearance and erythrophagocytosis. We appreciate your insightful feedback, which has prompted a careful re-examination of our data and interpretations. We hope that these revisions provide a more accurate and comprehensive understanding of the effects of HH on erythrophagocytosis and RBCs dynamics.

      (11) Legend in Fig 4c-4d looks incorrect and Fig 4e-4f is very non-specific since Wright stain does not provide evidence of what type of cells these are and making for a significant overstatement in the contribution of this data to "confirming" increased erythrophagocytosis in the spleen under HH exposure (line 395-396).

      Thank you for your insightful observations regarding the data presentation and figure legends in our manuscript, particularly in relation to Figure 4 (renamed as Figure 6 in the revised manuscript) and the use of Wright-Giemsa composite staining. We appreciate your constructive feedback and acknowledge the importance of presenting our data with utmost clarity and precision.

      (1) Amendments to Figure legends:

      We recognize the necessity of rectifying inaccuracies in the legends of the previously labeled Figure 4C and D. Corrections have been meticulously implemented to ensure the legends accurately contain the data presented. Additionally, we acknowledge the error concerning the description of Wright staining. The method employed in our study is Wright-Giemsa composite staining, which, unlike Wright staining that solely stains cytoplasm (RBC), is capable of staining both nuclei and cytoplasm.

      (2) Addressing the specificity of Wright-Giemsa Composite staining:

      Our approach involved quantifying RBC retention using Wright-Giemsa composite staining on single splenic cells post-perfusion at 7 and 14 days post HH exposure. We understand and appreciate your concerns regarding the nonspecific nature of Wright staining. Although Wright stain is a general hematologic stain and not explicitly specific for certain cell types, its application in our study aimed to provide preliminary insights. The spleen cells, devoid of nuclei and thus likely to be RBCs, were stained and observed post-perfusion, indicating RBC retention within the spleen.

      (3) Incorporating additional methods for RBC identification:

      To enhance the specificity of our findings, we integrated supplementary methods for RBC identification in the revised manuscript. We employed band3 immunostaining (in the new Figure 6, C-D and G-H) and PKH67 labeling (Figure 6, I-J) for a more targeted identification of RBCs. Band3, serving as a reliable marker for RBCs, augments the specificity of our immunostaining approach. Likewise, PKH67 labeling affords a direct and definitive means to assess RBC retention in the spleen following HH exposure.

      Author response image 16. same as 10

      (4) Revised interpretation and manuscript modifications:

      Based on these enhanced methodologies, we have refined our interpretation of the data and accordingly updated the manuscript. The revised narrative underscores that our conclusions regarding reduced erythrophagocytosis and RBC retention under HH conditions are corroborated by not only Wright-Giemsa composite staining but also by band3 immunostaining and PKH67 labeling, each contributing distinctively to our comprehensive understanding.

      We are committed to ensuring that our manuscript precisely reflects the contribution of each method to our findings and conclusions. Your thorough review has been invaluable in identifying and rectifying areas for improvement in our research report and interpretation.

      (12) Ferroptosis data in Fig 5 is not specific to macrophages and Fer-1 data confirms the expected effect of Fer-1 but there is no data that supports that Fer-1 reverses the destruction of these cells or restores their function in hypoxia. Finally, these experiments were performed in peritoneal macrophages which are functionally distinct from splenic RPM.

      Thank you for your critique of our presentation and interpretation of the ferroptosis data in Figure 5 (renamed as Figure 9 in the revised manuscript), as well as your observations regarding the specificity of the experiments to macrophages and the effects of Fer-1. We value your input and acknowledge the need to clarify these aspects in our manuscript.

      (1) Clarification on cell type used in experiments:

      • We appreciate your attention to the details of our experimental setup. The experiments presented in Figure 9 were indeed conducted on splenic macrophages, not peritoneal macrophages, as incorrectly mentioned in the original figure legend. This was an error in our manuscript, and we have revised the figure legend accordingly to accurately reflect the cell type used.

      (2) Specificity of ferroptosis data:

      • We recognize that the data presented in Figure 9 need to be more explicitly linked to the specific macrophage population being studied. In the revised manuscript, we ensure that the discussion around ferroptosis data is clearly situated within the framework of splenic macrophages.

      • We also provide additional methodological details in the 'Methods' section to reinforce the specificity of our experiments to splenic macrophages.

      (3) Effects of Fer-1 on macrophage function and survival:

      • Regarding the effect of Fer-1, we agree that while our data confirms the expected effect of Fer-1 in inhibiting ferroptosis, we have not provided direct evidence that Fer-1 reverses the destruction of macrophages or restores their function in hypoxia.

      • To address this, we propose additional experiments to specifically investigate the impact of Fer-1 on the survival and functional restoration of splenic macrophages under hypoxic conditions. This would involve assessing not only the inhibition of ferroptosis but also the recovery of macrophage functionality post-treatment.

      (4) Revised interpretation and manuscript changes:

      • We’ve revised the relevant sections of our manuscript to reflect these clarifications and proposed additional studies. This includes modifying the discussion of the ferroptosis data to more accurately represent the cell types involved and the limitations of our current findings regarding the effects of Fer-1.

      • The revised manuscript presents a more detailed interpretation of the ferroptosis data, clearly describing what our current experiments demonstrate and what remains to be investigated.

      We are grateful for your insightful feedback, which has highlighted important areas for improvement in our research presentation. We think that these revisions will enhance the clarity and scientific accuracy of our manuscript, ensuring that our findings and conclusions are well-supported and precisely communicated.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The following questions and remarks should be considered by the authors:

      (1) The methods should clearly state whether the HH was discontinued during the 7 or 14 day exposure for cleaning, fresh water etc. Moreover, how was CO2 controlled? The procedure for splenectomy needs to be described in the methods.

      Thank you for your inquiry regarding the specifics of our experimental methods, particularly the management of HH exposure and the procedure for splenectomy. We appreciate your attention to detail and the importance of these aspects for the reproducibility and clarity of our research.

      (1) HH exposure conditions:

      In our experiments, mice were continuously exposed to HH for the entire duration of 7 or 14 days, without interruption for activities such as cleaning or providing fresh water. This uninterrupted exposure was crucial for maintaining consistent hypobaric conditions throughout the experiment. The hypobaric chamber was configured to ensure a ventilation rate of 25 air exchanges per minute. This high ventilation rate was effective in regulating the concentration of CO2 inside the chamber, thereby maintaining a stable environment for the mice.

      (2) The splenectomy was performed as follows:

      After anesthesia, the mice were placed in a supine position, and their limbs were fixed. The abdominal operation area was skinned, disinfected, and covered with a sterile towel. A median incision was made in the upper abdomen, followed by laparotomy to locate the spleen. The spleen was then carefully pulled out through the incision. The arterial and venous directions in the splenic pedicle were examined, and two vascular forceps were used to clamp all the tissue in the main cadre of blood vessels below the splenic portal. The splenic pedicle was cut between the forceps to remove the spleen. The end of the proximal hepatic artery was clamped with a vascular clamp, and double or through ligation was performed to secure the site. The abdominal cavity was then cleaned to ensure there was no bleeding at the ligation site, and the incision was closed. Post-operatively, the animals were housed individually. Generally, they were able to feed themselves after recovering from anesthesia and did not require special care.

      We hope this detailed description addresses your queries and provides a clear understanding of the experimental conditions and procedures used in our study. These methodological details are crucial for ensuring the accuracy and reproducibility of our research findings.

      (2) The lack of changes in MCH needs explanation? During stress erythropoiesis some limit in iron availability should cause MCH decrease particularly if the authors claim that macrophages for rapid iron recycling are decreased. Fig 1A is dispensable. Fig 1G NN control 14 days does not make sense since it is higher than 7 days of HH.

      Thank you for your inquiry regarding the lack of changes in Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin (MCH) in our study, particularly in the context of stress erythropoiesis and decreased macrophage-mediated iron recycling. We appreciate the opportunity to provide further clarification on this aspect.

      (1) Explanation for stable MCH levels:

      • Our research identified a decrease in erythrophagocytosis and iron recycling in the spleen following HH exposure. Despite this, the MCH levels remained stable. This observation can be explained by considering the compensatory roles of other organs, particularly the liver and duodenum, in maintaining iron homeostasis.

      • Specifically, our investigations revealed an enhanced capacity of the liver to engulf RBCs and process iron under HH conditions. This increased hepatic erythrophagocytosis likely compensates for the reduced splenic activity, thereby stabilizing MCH levels.

      (2) Role of hepcidin and DMT1 expression:

      Additionally, hypoxia is known to influence iron metabolism through the downregulation of Hepcidin and upregulation of Divalent Metal Transporter 1 (DMT1) expression. These alterations lead to enhanced intestinal iron absorption and increased blood iron levels, further contributing to the maintenance of MCH levels despite reduced splenic iron recycling.

      (3) Revised Figure 1 and data presentation

      To address the confusion regarding the data presented in Figure 1G, we have made revisions in our manuscript. The original Figure 1G, which did not align with the expected trends, has been removed. In its place, we have included a statistical chart of Figure 1F in the new version of Figure 1G. This revision will provide a clearer and more accurate representation of our findings.

      (4) Manuscript updates and future research:

      • We update our manuscript to incorporate these explanations, ensuring that the rationale behind the stable MCH levels is clearly articulated. This includes a discussion on the role of the liver and duodenum in iron metabolism under hypoxic conditions.

      • Future research could explore in greater detail the mechanisms by which different organs contribute to iron homeostasis under stress conditions like HH, particularly focusing on the dynamic interplay between hepatic and splenic functions.

      We thank you for your insightful question, which has prompted a thorough re-examination of our findings and interpretations. We believe that these clarifications will enhance the overall understanding of our study and its implications in the context of iron metabolism and erythropoiesis under hypoxic conditions.

      (3) Fig 2 the difference between sham and splenectomy is really marginal and not convincing. Is there also a difference at 7 days? Why does the spleen size decrease between 7 and 14 days?

      Thank you for your observations regarding the marginal differences observed between sham and splenectomy groups in Figure 2, as well as your inquiries about spleen size dynamics over time. We appreciate this opportunity to clarify these aspects of our study.

      (1) Splenectomy vs. Sham group differences:

      • In our experiments, the difference between the sham and splenectomy groups under HH conditions, though subtle, was consistent with our hypothesis regarding the spleen's role in erythrophagocytosis and stress erythropoiesis. Under NN conditions, no significant difference was observed between these groups, which aligns with the expectation that the spleen's contribution is more pronounced under hypoxic stress.

      (2) Spleen size dynamics and peak stress erythropoiesis:

      • The observed splenic enlargement prior to 7 days can be attributed to a combination of factors, including the retention of RBCs and extramedullary hematopoiesis, which is known to be a response to hypoxic stress.

      • Prior research has elucidated that splenic stress-induced erythropoiesis, triggered by hypoxic conditions, typically attains its zenith within a timeframe of 3 to 7 days. This observation aligns with our Toluidine Blue (TO) staining results, which indicated that the apex of this response occurs at the 7-day mark (as depicted in Figure 1, F-G). Here, the culmination of this peak is characteristically succeeded by a diminution in extramedullary hematopoiesis, a phenomenon that could elucidate the observed contraction in spleen size, particularly in the interval between 7 and 14 days.

      • This pattern of splenic response under prolonged hypoxic stress is corroborated by studies such as those conducted by Wang et al. (2021), Harada et al. (2015), and Cenariu et al. (2021). These references collectively underscore that the spleen undergoes significant dynamism in reaction to sustained hypoxia. This dynamism is initially manifested as an enlargement of the spleen, attributable to escalated erythropoiesis and erythrophagocytosis. Subsequently, as these processes approach normalization, a regression in spleen size ensues.

      We’ve revised our manuscript to include a more detailed explanation of these splenic dynamics under HH conditions, referencing the relevant literature to provide a comprehensive context for our findings. We will also consider performing additional analysis or providing further data on spleen size changes at 7 days to support our observations and ensure a thorough understanding of the splenic response to hypoxic stress over time.

      (4) Fig 3 B the clusters should be explained in detail. If the decrease in macrophages in Fig 3K/L is responsible for the effect, why does splenectomy not have a much stronger effect? How do the authors know which cells died in the calcein stained population in Fig 3D?

      Thank you for your insightful questions regarding the details of our data presentation in Figure 3, particularly about the identification of cell clusters and the implications of macrophage reduction. We appreciate the opportunity to address these aspects and clarify our findings.

      (1) Explanation of cell clusters in Figure 3B:

      • In the revised manuscript, we have included detailed notes for each cell population represented in Figure 3B (Figure 3D in revised manuscript). These notes provide a clearer understanding of the cell types present in each cluster, enhancing the interpretability of our single-cell sequencing data.

      • This detailed annotation will help readers to better understand the composition of the splenic cell populations under study and how they are affected by hypoxic conditions.

      (2) Impact of splenectomy vs. macrophage reduction:

      • The interplay between the reduction in macrophage populations, as evidenced by our single-cell sequencing data, and the ramifications of splenectomy presents a multifaceted scenario. Notably, the observed decline in macrophage numbers following HH exposure does not straightforwardly equate to a comparable alteration in overall splenic function, as might be anticipated with splenectomy.

      • In the context of splenectomy under HH conditions, a significant escalation in the RBCs count was observed, surpassing that in non-splenectomized mice exposed to HH. This finding underscores the spleen's critical role in modulating RBCs dynamics under HH. It also indirectly suggests that the diminished phagocytic capacity of the spleen following HH exposure contributes to an augmented RBCs count, albeit to a lesser extent than in the splenectomy group. This difference is attributed to the fact that, while the number of RPMs in the spleen post-HH is reduced, they are still present, unlike in the case of splenectomy, where they are entirely absent.

      • Splenectomy entails the complete removal of the spleen, thus eliminating a broad spectrum of functions beyond erythrophagocytosis and iron recycling mediated by macrophages. The nuanced changes observed in our study may be reflective of the spleen's diverse functionalities and the organism's adaptive compensatory mechanisms in response to the loss of this organ.

      (3) Calcein stained population in Figure 3D:

      • Regarding the identification of cell death in the calcein-stained population in Figure 3D (Figure 3A in revised manuscript), we acknowledge that the specific cell types undergoing death could not be distinctly determined from this analysis alone.

      • The calcein staining method allows for the visualization of live (calcein-positive) and dead (calcein-negative) cells, but it does not provide specific information about the cell types. The decrease in macrophage population was inferred from the single-cell sequencing data, which offered a more precise identification of cell types.

      (4) Revised manuscript and data presentation:

      • Considering your feedback, we have revised our manuscript to provide a more comprehensive explanation of the data presented in Figure 3, including the nature of the cell clusters and the interpretation of the calcein staining results.

      • We have also updated the manuscript to reflect the removal of Figure 3K/L results and to provide a more focused discussion on the relevant findings.

      We are grateful for your detailed review, which has helped us to refine our data presentation and interpretation. These clarifications and revisions will enhance the clarity and scientific rigor of our manuscript, ensuring that our conclusions are well-supported and accurately conveyed.

      (5) Is the reduced phagocytic capacity in Fig 4B significant? Erythrophagocytosis is compromised due to the considerable spontaneous loss of labelled erythrocytes; could other assays help? (potentially by a modified Chromium release assay?). Is it necessary to stimulated phagocytosis to see a significant effect?

      Thank you for your inquiry regarding the significance of the reduced phagocytic capacity observed in Figure 4B, and the potential for employing alternative assays to elucidate erythrophagocytosis dynamics under HH conditions.

      (1) Significance of reduced phagocytic capacity:

      The observed reduction in the amplitude of fluorescently labeled RBCs in both the blood and spleen under HH conditions suggests a decrease in erythrophagocytosis. This is indicative of a diminished phagocytic capacity, particularly when contrasted with NN conditions.

      (2) Investigation of erythrophagocytosis dynamics:

      To delve deeper into erythrophagocytosis under HH, we employed Tuftsin to enhance this process. Following the injection of PKH67-labeled RBCs and subsequent HH exposure, we noted a significant decrease in PKH67 fluorescence in the spleen, particularly marked after the administration of Tuftsin. This finding implies that stimulated erythrophagocytosis can influence RBCs lifespan.

      (3) Erythrophagocytosis under normal and hypoxic conditions:

      Under normal conditions, the reduction in phagocytic activity is less apparent without stimulation. However, under HH conditions, our findings demonstrate a clear weakening of the phagocytic effect. While we established that promoting phagocytosis under NN conditions affects RBC lifespan, the impact of enhanced phagocytosis under HH on RBCs numbers was not explicitly investigated.

      (4) Potential for alternative assays:

      Considering the considerable spontaneous loss of labeled erythrocytes, alternative assays such as a modified Chromium release assay could provide further insights. Such assays might offer a more nuanced understanding of erythrophagocytosis efficiency and the stability of labeled RBCs under different conditions.

      (5) Future research directions:

      The implications of these results suggest that future studies should focus on comparing the effects of stimulated phagocytosis under both NN and HH conditions. This would offer a clearer picture of the impact of hypoxia on the phagocytic capacity of macrophages and the subsequent effects on RBC turnover.

      In summary, our findings indicate a diminished erythrophagocytic capacity, with enhanced phagocytosis affecting RBCs lifespan. Further investigation, potentially using alternative assays, would be beneficial to comprehensively understand the dynamics of erythrophagocytosis in different physiological states.

      (6) Can the observed ferroptosis be influenced by bi- and not trivalent iron chelators?

      Thank you for your question regarding the potential influence of bi- and trivalent iron chelators on ferroptosis under hypoxic conditions. We appreciate the opportunity to discuss the implications of our findings in this context.

      (1) Analysis of iron chelators on ferroptosis:

      In our study, we did not specifically analyze the effects of bi- and trivalent iron chelators on ferroptosis under hypoxia. However, our observations with Deferoxamine (DFO), a well-known iron chelator, provide some insights into how iron chelation may influence ferroptosis in splenic macrophages under hypoxic conditions.

      (2) Effect of DFO on oxidative stress markers:

      Our findings showed that under 1% O2, there was an increase in Malondialdehyde (MDA) content, a marker of lipid peroxidation, and a decrease in Glutathione (GSH) content, indicative of oxidative stress. These changes are consistent with the induction of ferroptosis, which is characterized by increased lipid peroxidation and depletion of antioxidants. Treatment with Ferrostatin-1 (Fer-1) and DFO effectively reversed these alterations. This suggests that DFO, like Fer-1, can mitigate ferroptosis in splenic macrophages under hypoxia, primarily by impacting MDA and GSH levels.

      Author response image 17.

      (3) Potential role of iron chelators in ferroptosis:

      The effectiveness of DFO in reducing markers of ferroptosis indicates that iron availability plays a crucial role in the ferroptotic process under hypoxic conditions. It is plausible that both bi- and trivalent iron chelators could influence ferroptosis, given their ability to modulate iron availability within cells. Since ferroptosis is an iron-dependent form of cell death, chelating iron, irrespective of its valence state, could potentially disrupt the process by limiting the iron necessary for the generation of reactive oxygen species and lipid peroxidation.

      (4) Additional research and manuscript updates:

      Our study highlights the need for further research to explore the differential effects of various iron chelators on ferroptosis, particularly under hypoxic conditions. Such studies could provide a more comprehensive understanding of the role of iron in ferroptosis and the potential therapeutic applications of iron chelators. We update our manuscript to include these findings and discuss the potential implications of iron chelation in the context of ferroptosis under hypoxic conditions. This will provide a broader perspective on our research and its significance in understanding the mechanisms of ferroptosis.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript entitled 'The domesticated transposon protein L1TD1 associates with its ancestor L1 ORF1p to promote LINE-1 retrotransposition', Kavaklıoğlu and colleagues delve into the role of L1TD1, an RNA binding protein (RBP) derived from a LINE1 transposon. L1TD1 proves crucial for maintaining pluripotency in embryonic stem cells and is linked to cancer progression in germ cell tumors, yet its precise molecular function remains elusive. Here, the authors uncover an intriguing interaction between L1TD1 and its ancestral LINE-1 retrotransposon.

      The authors delete the DNA methyltransferase DNMT1 in a haploid human cell line (HAP1), inducing widespread DNA hypo-methylation. This hypomethylation prompts abnormal expression of L1TD1. To scrutinize L1TD1's function in a DNMT1 knock-out setting, the authors create DNMT1/L1TD1 double knock-out cell lines (DKO). Curiously, while the loss of global DNA methylation doesn't impede proliferation, additional depletion of L1TD1 leads to DNA damage and apoptosis.

      To unravel the molecular mechanism underpinning L1TD1's protective role in the absence of DNA methylation, the authors dissect L1TD1 complexes in terms of protein and RNA composition. They unveil an association with the LINE-1 transposon protein L1-ORF1 and LINE-1 transcripts, among others.

      Surprisingly, the authors note fewer LINE-1 retro-transposition events in DKO cells compared to DNMT1 KO alone.

      Strengths:

      The authors present compelling data suggesting the interplay of a transposon-derived human RNA binding protein with its ancestral transposable element. Their findings spur interesting questions for cancer types, where LINE1 and L1TD1 are aberrantly expressed.

      Weaknesses:

      Suggestions for refinement:

      The initial experiment, inducing global hypo-methylation by eliminating DNMT1 in HAP1 cells, is intriguing and warrants more detailed description. How many genes experience misregulation or aberrant expression? What phenotypic changes occur in these cells? Why did the authors focus on L1TD1? Providing some of this data would be helpful to understand the rationale behind the thorough analysis of L1TD1.

      The finding that L1TD1/DNMT1 DKO cells exhibit increased apoptosis and DNA damage but decreased L1 retro-transposition is unexpected. Considering the DNA damage associated with retro-transposition and the DNA damage and apoptosis observed in L1TD1/DNMT1 DKO cells, one would anticipate the opposite outcome. Could it be that the observation of fewer transposition-positive colonies stems from the demise of the most transpositionpositive colonies? Further exploration of this phenomenon would be intriguing.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this study, Kavaklıoğlu et al. investigated and presented evidence for a role for domesticated transposon protein L1TD1 in enabling its ancestral relative, L1 ORF1p, to retrotranspose in HAP1 human tumor cells. The authors provided insight into the molecular function of L1TD1 and shed some clarifying light on previous studies that showed somewhat contradictory outcomes surrounding L1TD1 expression. Here, L1TD1 expression was correlated with L1 activation in a hypomethylation dependent manner, due to DNMT1 deletion in HAP1 cell line. The authors then identified L1TD1 associated RNAs using RIPSeq, which display a disconnect between transcript and protein abundance (via Tandem Mass Tag multiplex mass spectrometry analysis). The one exception was for L1TD1 itself, is consistent with a model in which the RNA transcripts associated with L1TD1 are not directly regulated at the translation level. Instead, the authors found L1TD1 protein associated with L1-RNPs and this interaction is associated with increased L1 retrotransposition, at least in the contexts of HAP1 cells. Overall, these results support a model in which L1TD1 is restrained by DNA methylation, but in the absence of this repressive mark, L1TD1 is expression, and collaborates with L1 ORF1p (either directly or through interaction with L1 RNA, which remains unclear based on current results), leads to enhances L1 retrotransposition. These results establish feasibility of this relationship existing in vivo in either development or disease, or both.

      Comments on revised version:

      In general, the authors did an acceptable job addressing the major concerns throughout the manuscript. This revision is much clearer and has improved in terms of logical progression.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors have addressed all my questions in the revised version of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Revised comments:

      A few points we'd like to see addressed are our comments about the model (Figure S7C), as this is important for the readership to understand this complex finding. Please try to apply some quantification, if possible (question 8). Please do your best to tone down the direct relationship of these findings to embryology (question 11). Based on both reviewer comments, we believe addressing reviewer #1s "Suggestions for refinement" (2 points), would help us change our view of solid to convincing.

      Responses to changes:

      Major

      (1) The study only used one knockout (KO) cell line generated by CRISPR/Cas9.

      Considering the possibility of an off-target effect, I suggest the authors attempt one or both of these suggestions.

      A)  Generate or acquire a similar DMNT1 deletion that uses distinct sgRNAs, so that the likelihood of off-targets is negligible. A few simple experiments such as qRT-PCR would be sufficient to suggest the same phenotype.

      B)  Confirm the DNMT1 depletion also by siRNA/ASO KD to phenocopy the KO effect.

      (2) In addition to the strategies to demonstrate reproducibility, a rescue experiment restoring DNMT1 to the KO or KD cells would be more convincing. (Partial rescue would suffice in this case, as exact endogenous expression levels may be hard to replicate).

      We have undertook several approaches to study the effect of DNMT1 loss or inactivation: As described above, we have generated a conditional KO mouse with ablation of DNMT1 in the epidermis. DNMT1-deficient keratinocytes isolated from these mice show a significant increase in L1TD1 expression. In addition, treatment of primary human keratinocytes and two squamous cell carcinoma cell lines with the DNMT inhibitor aza-deoxycytidine led to upregulation of L1TD1 expression. Thus, the derepression of L1TD1 upon loss of DNMT1 expression or activity is not a clonal effect.

      Also, the spectrum of RNAs identified in RIP experiments as L1TD1-associated transcripts in HAP1 DNMT1 KO cells showed a strong overlap with the RNAs isolated by a related yet different method in human embryonic stem cells. When it comes to the effect of L1TD1 on L1-1 retrotranspostion, a recent study has reported a similar effect of L1TD1 upon overexpression in HeLa cells [4].

      All of these points together help to convince us that our findings with HAP1 DNMT KO are in agreement with results obtained in various other cell systems and are therefore not due to off-target effects. With that in mind, we would pursue the suggestion of Reviewer 1 to analyze the effects of DNA hypomethylation upon DNMT1 ablation.

      Thank you for addressing this concern. The reference to Beck 2021 and the additional cells lines (R2: keratinocytes and R3: squamous cell carcinoma) provides sufficient evidence that this result is unlikely to be a result of clonal expansion or off targets.

      Question: Was the human ES Cell RIP Experiment shown here? What is the overlap?

      We refer to the recently published study by Jin et al. (PMID: 38165001). As stated in the Discussion, the majority of L1TD1-associated transcripts in HAP1 cells (69%) identified in our study were also reported as L1TD1 targets in hESCs suggesting a conserved binding affinity of this domesticated transposon protein across different cell types.  

      (3) As stated in the introduction, L1TD1 and ORF1p share "sequence resemblance" (Martin 2006). Is the L1TD1 antibody specific or do we see L1 ORF1p if Fig 1C were uncropped?

      (6) Is it possible the L1TD1 antibody binds L1 ORF1p? This could make Figure 2D somewhat difficult to interpret. Some validation of the specificity of the L1TD1 antibody would remove this concern (see minor concern below).

      This is a relevant question. We are convinced that the L1TD1 antibody does not crossreact with L1 ORF1p for the following reasons: Firstly, the antibody does not recognize L1 ORF1p (40 kDa) in the uncropped Western blot for Figure 1C (Figure R4A). Secondly, the L1TD1 antibody gives only background signals in DKO cells in the indirect immunofluorescence experiment shown in Figure 1E of the manuscript.

      Thirdly, the immunogene sequence of L1TD1 that determines the specificity of the antibody was checked in the antibody data sheet from Sigma Aldrich. The corresponding epitope is not present in the L1 ORF1p sequence.

      Finally, we have shown that the ORF1p antibody does not cross-react with L1TD1 (Figure R4B).

      Response: Thank you for sharing these images. These full images relieve concerns about specificity. The increase of ORF1P in R4B and Main figure 3C is interesting and pointed out in the manuscript. Not for the purposes of this review, but the observation of reduced transposition despite increased ORF1P could be an interesting follow up to this study (combined with the similar UPF1 result could indicate a complex of some kind).

      (4) In abstract (P2), the authors mentioned that L1TD1 works as an RNA chaperone, but in the result section (P13), they showed that L1TD1 associates with L1 ORF1p in an RNA independent manner. Those conclusions appear contradictory. Clarification or revision is required.

      Our findings that both proteins bind L1 RNA, and that L1TD1 interacts with ORF1p are compatible with a scenario where L1TD1/ORF1p heteromultimers bind to L1 RNA. The additional presence of L1TD1 might thereby enhance the RNA chaperone function of ORF1p. This model is visualized now in Suppl. Figure S7C.

      Response: Thank you for the model. To further clarify, do you mean that L1TD1 can bind L1 RNA, but this is not needed for the effect, however this "bonus" binding (that is enabled by heteromultimerization) appears to enhance the retrotransposition frequency? Do you think L1TD1 is binding L1 RNA in this context or simply "stabilizing" ORF1P (Trimer) RNP?

      Based on our data, L1TD1 associates with L1 RNA and interacts with L1 ORF1p. Both features might contribute to the enhanced retrotransposition frequency. Interestingly, the L1TD1 protein shares with its ancestor L1 ORF1p the non-canonical RNA recognition motif and the coiled-coil motif required for the trimerization but has two copies instead of one of the C-terminal domain (CTD), a structure with RNA binding and chaperone function. We speculate that the presence of an additional CTD within the L1TD1 protein might thereby enhance the RNA binding and chaperone function of L1TD1/ORF1p heteromultimers.

      (5) Figure 2C fold enrichment for L1TD1 and ARMC1 is a bit difficult to fully appreciate. A 100 to 200-fold enrichment does not seem physiological. This appears to be a "divide by zero" type of result, as the CT for these genes was likely near 40 or undetectable. Another qRT-PCR based approach (absolute quantification) would be a more revealing experiment. This is the validation of the RIP experiments and the presentation mode is specifically developed for quantification of RIP assays (Sigma Aldrich RIP-qRT-PCR: Data Analysis Calculation Shell). The unspecific binding of the transcript in the absence of L1TD1 in DNMT1/L1TD1 DKO cells is set to 1 and the value in KO cells represents the specific binding relative the unspecific binding. The calculation also corrects for potential differences in the abundance of the respective transcript in the two cell lines. This is not a physiological value but the quantification of specific binding of transcripts to L1TD1. GAPDH as negative control shows no enrichment, whereas specifically associated transcripts show strong enrichement. We have explained the details of RIPqRT-PCR evaluation in Materials and Methods (page 14) and the legend of Figure 2C in the revised manuscript.

      Response: Thank you for the clarification and additional information in the manuscript.

      (6) Is it possible the L1TD1 antibody binds L1 ORF1p? This could make Figure 2D somewhat difficult to interpret. Some validation of the specificity of the L1TD1 antibody would remove this concern (see minor concern below).

      See response to (3).

      Response: Thanks.

      (7) Figure S4A and S4B: There appear to be a few unusual aspects of these figures that should be pointed out and addressed. First, there doesn't seem to be any ORF1p in the Input (if there is, the exposure is too low). Second, there might be some L1TD1 in the DKO (lane 2) and lane 3. This could be non-specific, but the size is concerning. Overexposure would help see this.

      The ORF1p IP gives rise to strong ORF1p signals in the immunoprecipitated complexes even after short exposure. Under these conditions ORF1p is hardly detectable in the input. Regarding the faint band in DKO HAP1 cells, this might be due to a technical problem during Western blot loading. Therefore, the input samples were loaded again on a Western blot and analyzed for the presence of ORF1p, L1TD1 and beta-actin (as loading control) and shown as separate panel in Suppl. Figure S4A.

      The enhanced image is clearer. Thanks.

      S4A and S4B now appear to the S6A and S6B, is that correct? (This is due to the addition of new S1 and S2, but please verify image orders were not disturbed).

      Yes, the input is shown now as a separate panel in Suppl. Figure S6A.

      (8) Figure S4C: This is related to our previous concerns involving antibody cross-reactivity. Figure 3E partially addresses this, where it looks like the L1TD1 "speckles" outnumber the ORF1p puncta, but overlap with all of them. This might be consistent with the antibody crossreacting. The western blot (Figure 3C) suggests an upregulation of ORF1p by at least 23x in the DKO, but the IF image in 3E is hard to tell if this is the case (slightly more signal, but fewer foci). Can you return to the images and confirm the contrast are comparable? Can you massively overexpose the red channel in 3E to see if there is residual overlap? In Figure 3E the L1TD1 antibody gives no signal in DNMT1/L1TD1 DKO cells confirming that it does not recognize ORF1p. In agreement with the Western blot in Figure 3C the L1 ORF1p signal in Figure 3E is stronger in DKO cells. In DNMT1 KO cells the L1 ORF1p antibody does not recognize all L1TD1 speckles. This result is in agreement with the Western blot shown above in Figure R4B and indicates that the L1 ORF1p antibody does not recognize the L1TD1 protein. The contrast is comparable and after overexposure there are still L1TD1 specific speckles. This might be due to differences in abundance of the two proteins.

      Response: Suggestion: Would it be possible to use a program like ImageJ to supplement the western blot observation? Qualitatively, In figure 3E, it appears that there is more signal in the DKO, but this could also be due to there being multiple cells clustered together or a particularly nicely stained region. Could you randomly sample 20-30 cells across a few experiments to see if this holds up. I am interested in whether the puncta in the KO image(s) is a very highly concentrated region and in the DKO this is more disperse. Also, the representative DKO seems to be cropped slightly wrong. (Please use puncta as a guide to make the cropping more precise)

      As suggested by the reviewer we have quantified the signals of 60 KO cells and 56 DKO cells in three different IF experiments by ImageJ. We measured a 1.4-fold higher expression level of L1 ORF1p in DKO cells. However, the difference is not statistically significant. This is most probably due to the change in cell size and protein content during the cell cycle with increasing protein contents from G1 to G2. Western blot analysis provides signals of comparable protein amounts representing an average expression levels over ten thousands of cells. Nevertheless, the quantification results reflect in principle the IF pictures shown in Figure 3E but IF is probably not the best method to quantify protein amounts. We have also corrected Figure 3E.

      Author response image 1.

      (9) The choice of ARMC1 and YY2 is unclear. What are the criteria for the selection?

      ARMC1 was one of the top hits in a pilot RIP-seq experiment (IP versus input and IP versus IgG IP). In the actual RIP-seq experiment with DKO HAP1 cells instead of IgG IP as a negative control, we found ARMC1 as an enriched hit, although it was not among the top 5 hits. The results from the 2nd RIP-seq further confirmed the validity of ARMC1 as an L1TD1interacting transcript. YY2 was of potential biological relevance as an L1TD1 target due to the fact that it is a processed pseudogene originating from YY1 mRNA as a result of retrotransposition. This is mentioned on page 6 of the revised manuscript.

      Response: Appreciated!

      (10) (P16) L1 is the only protein-coding transposon that is active in humans. This is perhaps too generalized of a statement as written. Other examples are readily found in the literature.

      Please clarify.

      We will tone down this statement in the revised manuscript.

      Response: Appreciated! To further clarify, the term "active" when it comes to transposable elements, has not been solidified. It can span "retrotransposition competent" to "transcripts can be recovered". There are quite a few reports of GAG transcripts and protein from various ERV/LTR subfamilies in various cells and tissues (in mouse and human at least), however whether they contribute to new insertions is actively researched.

      (11) In both the abstract and last sentence in the discussion section (P17), embryogenesis is mentioned, but this is not addressed at all in the manuscript. Please refrain from implying normal biological functions based on the results of this study unless appropriate samples are used to support them.

      Much of the published data on L1TD1 function are related to embryonic stem cells [3- 7].

      Therefore, it is important to discuss our findings in the context of previous reports.

      Response: It is well established that embryonic stem cells are not a perfect or direct proxies for the inner cell mass of embryos, as multiple reports have demonstrated transcriptomic, epigenetic, chromatin accessibility differences. The exact origin of ES cells is also considered controversial. We maintain that the distinction between embryos/embryogenesis and the results presented in the manuscript are not yet interchangeable. An important exception would be complex models of embryogenesis such as embryoids, (or synthetic/artificial embryo models that have been carefully been termed as such so as to not suggest direct implications to embryos). https://www.nature.com/articles/ncb2965  

      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00018-018-2965-y  

      https://www.cell.com/developmental-cell/abstract/S1534-5807(24)00363-0?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS1534580724003630%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

      We have deleted the corresponding paragraph in the Discussion.

      (12) Figure 3E: The format of Figures 1A and 3E are internally inconsistent. Please present similar data/images in a cohesive way throughout the manuscript. We show now consistent IF Figures in the revised manuscript.

      Response: Thanks

      Minor:

      In general:

      Still need checking for typos, mostly in Materials and Methods section; Please keep a consistent writing style throughout the whole manuscript. If you use L1 ORF1p, then please use L1 instead of LINE-1, or if you keep LINE-1 in your manuscript, then you should use LINE-1 ORF1p.

      A lab member from the US checked again the Materials and Methods section for typos. We keep the short version L1 ORF1p.

      (1) Intro:

      - Is L1Td1 in mice and Humans? How "conserved" is it and does this suggest function? Murine and human L1TD1 proteins share 44% identity on the amino acid level and it was suggested that the corresponding genes were under positive selection during evolution with functions in transposon control and maintenance of pluripotency [8].

      - Why HAP1? (Haploid?) The importance of this cell line is not clear.

      HAP1 is a nearly haploid human cancer cell line derived from the KBM-7 chronic myelogenous leukemia (CML) cell line [9, 10]. Due to its haploidy is perfectly suited and widely used for loss-of-function screens and gene editing. After gene editing cells can be used in the nearly haploid or in the diploid state. We usually perform all experiments with diploid HAP1 cell lines. Importantly, in contrast to other human tumor cell lines, this cell line tolerates ablation of DNMT1. We have included a corresponding explanation in the revised manuscript on page 5, first paragraph.

      - Global methylation status in DNMT1 KO? (Methylations near L1 insertions, for example?)

      The HAP1 DNMT1 KO cell line with a 20 bp deletion in exon 4 used in our study was validated in the study by Smits et al. [11]. The authors report a significant reduction in overall DNA methylation. However, we are not aware of a DNA methylome study on this cell line. We show now data on the methylation of L1 elements in HAP1 cells and upon DNMT1 deletion in the revised manuscript in Suppl. Figure S1B.

      Response: Looks great!

      (2) Figure 1:

      - Figure 1C. Why is LMNB used instead of Actin (Fig1D)?

      We show now beta-actin as loading control in the revised manuscript.

      - Figure 1G shows increased Caspase 3 in KO, while the matching sentence in the result section skips over this. It might be more accurate to mention this and suggest that the single KO has perhaps an intermediate phenotype (Figure 1F shows a slight but not significant trend).

      We fully agree with the reviewer and have changed the sentence on page 6, 2nd paragraph accordingly.

      - Would 96 hrs trend closer to significance? An interpretation is that L1TD1 loss could speed up this negative consequence.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have performed a time course experiment with 6 biological replicas for each time point up to 96 hours and found significant changes in the viability upon loss of DNMT1 and again significant reduction in viability upon additional loss of L1TD1 (shown in Figure 1F). These data suggest that as expected loss of DNMT1 leads to significant reduction viability and that additional ablation of L1TD1 further enhances this effect.

      Response: Looks good!

      - What are the "stringent conditions" used to remove non-specific binders and artifacts (negative control subtraction?)

      Yes, we considered only hits from both analyses, L1TD1 IP in KO versus input and L1TD1 IP in KO versus L1TD1 IP in DKO. This is now explained in more detail in the revised manuscript on page 6, 3rd paragraph.

      (3) Figure 2:

      - Figure 2A is a bit too small to read when printed.

      We have changed this in the revised manuscript.

      - Since WT and DKO lack detectable L1TD1, would you expect any difference in RIP-Seq results between these two?

      Due to the lack of DNMT1 and the resulting DNA hypomethylation, DKO cells are more similar to KO cells than WT cells with respect to the expressed transcripts.

      - Legend says selected dots are in green (it appears blue to me). We have changed this in the revised manuscript.

      - Would you recover L1 ORF1p and its binding partners in the KO? (Is the antibody specific in the absence of L1TD1 or can it recognize L1?) I noticed an increase in ORF1p in the KO in Figure 3C.

      Thank you for the suggestion. Yes, L1 ORF1p shows slightly increased expression in the proteome analysis and we have marked the corresponding dot in the Volcano plot (Figure 3A).

      - Should the figure panel reference near the (Rosspopoff & Trono) reference instead be Sup S1C as well? Otherwise, I don't think S1C is mentioned at all.

      - What are the red vs. green dots in 2D? Can you highlight ERV and ALU with different colors?

      We added the reference to Suppl. Figure S1C (now S3C) in the revised manuscript. In Figure 2D L1 elements are highlighted in green, ERV elements in yellow, and other associated transposon transcripts in red.

      Response: Much better, thanks!

      - Which L1 subfamily from Figure 2D is represented in the qRT-PCR in 2E "LINE-1"? Do the primers match a specific L1 subfamily? If so, which? We used primers specific for the human L1.2 subfamily.

      - Pulling down SINE element transcripts makes some sense, as many insertions "borrow" L1 sequences for non-autonomous retro transposition, but can you speculate as to why ERVs are recovered? There should be essentially no overlap in sequence.

      In the L1TD1 evolution paper [8], a potential link between L1TD1 and ERV elements was discussed:

      "Alternatively, L1TD1 in sigmodonts could play a role in genome defense against another element active in these genomes. Indeed, the sigmodontine rodents have a highly active family of ERVs, the mysTR elements [46]. Expansion of this family preceded the death of L1s, but these elements are very active, with 3500 to 7000 speciesspecific insertions in the L1-extinct species examined [47]. This recent ERV amplification in Sigmodontinae contrasts with the megabats (where L1TD1 has been lost in many species); there are apparently no highly active DNA or RNA elements in megabats [48]. If L1TD1 can suppress retroelements other than L1s, this could explain why the gene is retained in sigmodontine rodents but not in megabats."

      Furthermore, Jin et al. report the binding of L1TD1 to repetitive sequences in transcripts [12]. It is possible that some of these sequences are also present in ERV RNAs.

      Response: Interesting, thanks for sharing

      - Is S2B a screenshot? (the red underline).

      No, it is a Powerpoint figure, and we have removed the red underline.

      (4) Figure 3:

      - Text refers to Figure 3B as a western blot. Figure 3B shows a volcano plot. This is likely 3C but would still be out of order (3A>3C>3B referencing). I think this error is repeated in the last result section.

      - Figure and legends fail to mention what gene was used for ddCT method (actin, gapdh, etc.).

      - In general, the supplemental legends feel underwritten and could benefit from additional explanations. (Main figures are appropriate but please double-check that all statistical tests have been mentioned correctly).

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have corrected these errors in the revised manuscript.

      (5) Discussion:

      - Aluy connection is interesting. Is there an "Alu retrotransposition reporter assay" to test whether L1TD1 enhances this as well?

      Thank you for the suggestion. There is indeed an Alu retrotransposition reporter assay reported be Dewannieux et al. [13]. The assay is based on a Neo selection marker. We have previously tested a Neo selection-based L1 retrotransposition reporter assay, but this system failed to properly work in HAP1 cells, therefore we switched to a blasticidin based L1 retrotransposition reporter assay. A corresponding blasticidin-based Alu retrotransposition reporter assay might be interesting for future studies (mentioned in the Discussion, page 11 paragraph 4 of the revised manuscript.

      (6) Material and Methods :

      - The number of typos in the materials and methods is too numerous to list. Instead, please refer to the next section that broadly describes the issues seen throughout the manuscript.

      Writing style

      (1) Keep a consistent style throughout the manuscript: for example, L1 or LINE-1 (also L1 ORF1p or LINE-1 ORF1p); per or "/"; knockout or knock-out; min or minute; 3 times or three times; media or medium. Additionally, as TE naming conventions are not uniform, it is important to maintain internal consistency so as to not accidentally establish an imprecise version.

      (2) There's a period between "et al" and the comma, and "et al." should be italic.

      (3) The authors should explain what the key jargon is when it is first used in the manuscript, such as "retrotransposon" and "retrotransposition".

      (4) The authors should show the full spelling of some acronyms when they use it for the first time, such as RNA Immunoprecipitation (RIP).

      (5) Use a space between numbers and alphabets, such as 5 μg. (6) 2.0 × 105 cells, that's not an "x".

      (7) Numbers in the reference section are lacking (hard to parse).

      (8) In general, there are a significant number of typos in this draft which at times becomes distracting. For example, (P3) Introduction: Yet, co-option of TEs thorough (not thorough, it should be through) evolution has created so-called domesticated genes beneficial to the gene network in a wide range of organisms. Please carefully revise the entire manuscript for these minor issues that collectively erode the quality of this submission. Thank you for pointing out these mistakes. We have corrected them in the revised manuscript. A native speaker from our research group has carefully checked the paper. In summary, we have added Supplementary Figure S7C and have changed Figures 1C, 1E, 1F, 2A, 2D, 3A, 4B, S3A-D, S4B and S6A based on these comments.

      Response: Thank you for taking these comments on board!

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This is an interesting and somewhat unusual paper supporting the idea that creatine is a neurotransmitter in the central nervous system of vertebrates. The idea is not entirely new, and the authors carefully weigh the evidence, both past and newly acquired, to make their case. The strength of the paper lies in the importance of the potential discovery - as the authors point out, creatine ticks more boxes on criteria of neurotransmitters than some of the ones listed in textbooks - and the list of known transmitters (currently 16) certainly is textbook material. A further strength of the manuscript is the careful consideration of a list of criteria for transmitters and newly acquired evidence for four of these criteria: 1. evidence that creatine is stored in synaptic vesicles, 2. mutants for creatine synthesis and a vesicular transporter show reduced storage and release of creatine, 3. functional measurement that creatine release has an excitatory or inhibitory (here inhibitory) effect in vivo, and 4. ATP-dependence. The key weakness of the paper is that there is no single clear 'smoking gun', like a postsynaptic creatine receptor, that would really demonstrate the function as a transmitter. Instead, the evidence is of a cumulative nature, and not all bits of evidence are equally strong. On balance, I found the path to discovery and the evidence assembled in this manuscript to establish a clear possibility, positive evidence, and to provide a foundation for further work in this direction.

      it is notable that, historically, no neurotransmitter has ever been established in a single paper. While creatine will not be an exception, data presented in this paper are more than any previous paper in demonstrating the possibility of a new neurotransmitter. However, we added an entire paragraph in the Discussion part about differences between Cr and classic neurotransmitters such as Glu, beginning with the absence of a molecularly defined receptor at this point and the Ca2+ independent component of Cr release induced by extracellular K+.

      We appreciate the reviewer for noting that evidence obtained by us now support that creatine satisfies all 4 criteria of transmitters.

      We respectively disagree the point about a smoking gun: any of these four is a smoking gun, while the satisfication of all 4 is quite strong, more than a smoking gun.

      We find it disagreeable that a receptor “would really demonstrate the function of a transmitter”. Textbook criteria for a transmitter usually require postsynaptic responses, not a molecularly defined receptor. A molecularly defined receptor for many of the known transmitters required many years of work, while they were accepted as transmitters before their receptors were finally molecularly defined. As long as there is a postsynaptic response, there is of course a receptor, though its molecular properties should be further studied. For examples, responses to choline were discovered in 1900 (Hunt, Am J Physiol 3, xviii-xix, 1900), those to acetylcholine in 1906 (Hunt and Taveau, Br Med J 2:1788-1789, 1906), those to supradrenal glands before 1894 (Oliver and Schäfer, J Physiol 18:230-276 1895). Henry Dale was awarded a Nobel prize in 1936 partly for his work on acetylcholine. Receptors for acetylcholine and noradrenaline were not molecularly defined until the 1970s and 1980s. Before then, they were only known by mediating responses to natural transmitters and synthesized chemicals.

      There were two previous reports that creatine could be taken into brain slices (Almeida et al., 2006) or synaptosomes (Peral, Vázquez-Carretero and Ilundain, 2010). These were used by the reviewer to argue that the idea of creatine as a neurotransmitter “is not entirely new”. However, no one has followed up these studies for 10 years, thus they would not be considered as good smoking guns. While we have reproduced the synaptosome uptake result (together with our new finding that this uptake was dependent on SLC6A8), it should be noted that uptake of molecules into synaptosomes is not absolutely required for a neurotransmitter because degradation of a transmitter is equally valid. Furthermore, molecules required synaptically but not as a transmitter can also be transported into the synaptic terminal.

      Our detection of Cr in the synaptic vesicles provides much stronger evidence supporting its importance. If a smoking gun is important, the detection of creatine in the SVs is the best smoking gun, whose discovery in fact was the reason leading us to study its release, postsynaptic responses as well as repeating the uptake experiment with genetic mutants.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Bian et al studied creatine (Cr) in the context of central nervous system (CNS) function. They detected Cr in synaptic vesicles purified from mouse brains with anti-Synaptophysin using capillary electrophoresis-mass spectrometry. Cr levels in the synaptic vesicle fraction were reduced in mice lacking the Cr synthetase AGAT, or the Cr transporter SLC6A8. They provide evidence for Cr release within several minutes after treating brain slices with KCl. This KCl-induced Cr release was partially calcium-dependent and was attenuated in slices obtained from AGAT and SLC6A8 mutant mice. Cr application also decreased the excitability of cortical pyramidal cells in one third of the cells tested. Finally, they provide evidence for SLC6A8-dependent Cr uptake into synaptosomes, and ATP-dependent Cr loading into synaptic vesicles. Based on these data, the authors propose that Cr may act as a neurotransmitter in the CNS.

      Strengths:

      1) A major strength of the paper is the broad spectrum of tools used to investigate Cr.

      2) The study provides strong evidence that Cr is present in/loaded into synaptic vesicles.

      Weaknesses:

      (in sequential order)

      1) Are Cr levels indeed reduced in Agat-/-? The decrease in Cr IgG in Agat-/- (and Agat+/-) is similar to the corresponding decrease in Syp (Fig. 3B). What is the explanation for this? Is the decrease in Cr in Agat-/- significant when considering the drop in IgG? The data should be normalized to the respective IgG control.

      We measured the Cr concentration in the whole brain lysates using Creatine Assay Kit (Sigma, MAK079). Cr levels in the brain were reduced in Agat-/- mice. The Cr concentration in AGAT-/- mice was reduced to about 1/10 of AGAT+/+ and AGAT+/- mice (Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1.

      Cr concentration in brain from AGAT+/+, AGAT+/- and AGAT-/- mice (n=5 male mice for each group). , p<0.05, **, p<0.001, one-way ANOVA with Tukey’s correction.

      As pointed by the reviewer, the decrease in Cr IgG in Agat-/- seems similar to the corresponding decrease in Syp (Fig. 3B in the paper). Cr pulled down by IgG was 0.46 ± 0.04, 0.37 ± 0.06 and 0.17 ±0.03 pmol/μg anti-syp antibody for Agat+/+, Agat+/-, and Agat-/- mice respectively. There was a trend of reduction Cr IgG in Agat-/-, however, there were no statistically significant differences between Agat-/- and Agat+/+, or between Agat-/- and Agat+/-, as determined by one-way ANOVA (Fig. 3B in the paper). Due to the fact that Agat-/- reduced Cr concentration in the brain, we speculate that the apparent drop in Cr pulled down by IgG may have partially resulted from the overall reduction of Cr content in the brain.

      The absolute content of Cr pulled down by Syp in Agat-/- mice was reduced to 21.6% of Agat+/+ mice and 23.6% of Agat+/- mice (Fig. 3B in the paper). As suggested by the reviewer, we normalized the Cr pulled down by Syp to the respective IgG control (Author response image 2). The normalized Cr content in AGAT-/- mice has a tendency to decrease, but not statistically significant, as compared to Agat+/+ and Agat+/- mice (n=10 for each group, one-way ANOVA).

      Author response image 2.

      Normalized Cr content in brain from AGAT+/+, AGAT+/- and AGAT-/- mice (n=10 for each group). Cr pulled down by anti-Syp antibody was normalized to that of IgG.

      2) The data supporting that depolarization-induced Cr release is SLC6A8 dependent is not convincing because the relative increase in KCl-induced Cr release is similar between SLC6A8-/Y and SLC6A8+/Y (Fig. 5D). The data should be also normalized to the respective controls.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we normalized the Cr release during KCl stimulation to the baseline (Author response image 3). The ratio of Cr release evoked by high KCl stimulation to the baseline was similar in WT and Slc6a8 knockouts. This suggests that Cr is not released through SLC6A8 transporter.

      Author response image 3.

      Normalized Cr release from slices from Slc6a8+/Y and Slc6a8-/Y mice (n=7 slices for each group). Cr released evoked by high KCl stimulation was normalized to baseline.

      However, without Slc6a8, KCl-induced release of Cr was significantly reduced (Figure 5D in the paper). This is because Slc6a8 is a transporter to Cr uptake into synaptic terminals (Figure 5D and 8C in the paper). Therefore, Cr content in SVs (Figure 2C in the paper) indirectly reduced Cr release.

      3) The majority (almost 3/4) of depolarization-induced Cr release is Ca2+ independent (Fig. 5G). Furthermore, KCl-induced, Ca2+-independent release persists in SLC6A8-/Y (Fig. 5G). What is the model for Ca2+-independent Cr release? Why is there Ca2+-independent Cr release from SLC6A8 KO neurons? How does this relate to the prominent decrease in Ca2+-dependent Cr release in SLC6A8-/Y (Fig. 5G)? They show a prominent decrease in Cr control levels in SLC6A8-/Y in Fig. 5D. Were the data shown in Fig. 5D obtained in the presence or absence of Ca2+? Could the decrease in Ca2+-dependent Cr release in SLC6A8-/Y (Fig. 5G) be due to decreased Cr baseline levels in the presence of Ca2+ (Fig. 5D)?

      These are interesting questions that, at this point, could only be answered by references to literature. For example, one possibility was that Ca2+-independent Cr release might occurs in glia, since as pointed by the reviewer in Point 6, high GAMT levels were reported for astrocytes and oligodendrites (Schmidt et al. 2004; Rosko et al. 2023). As reported, other neuromodulators such as taurine can be released from astrocytes (Philibert, Rogers, and Dutton 1989) or slices (Saransaari and Oja 2006) in Ca2+ independent manner. In addition, in the absence of potassium stimulation, Ca2+ depletion lead to increased release of taurine in cultured astrocytes (Takuma et al. 1996) or in striatum in vivo (Molchanova, Oja, and Saransaari 2005). Similarly, in SLC6A8 KO slices, Ca2+ depletion (Figure 5G) also increased creatine baseline levels as compared to that in normal ACSF (Figure 5D). Another possibility was that Ca2+-independent Cr release might occurs in neurons lacking SLC6a8 expression.

      As mentioned in the paper, data shown in Figure 5D was obtained in the presence Ca2+. Reduction of Ca2+-dependent Cr release evoked by potassium in SLC6A8-/Y (Figure 5G) may be due to decreased Cr baseline levels in the presence of Ca2+ and reduced Cr in synaptic vesicles (Figure 5D).

      4) Cr levels are strongly reduced in Agat-/- (Figure 6B). However, KCl-induced Cr release persists after loss of AGAT (Figure 6B). These data do not support that Cr release is Agat dependent.

      Although KCl-induced Cr release persisted in AGAT-/- mutants, it was dropped to 11.6% of WT mice (Figure 6B). AGAT is not directly involved in the release, but required for providing sufficient Cr.

      5) The authors show that Cr application decreases excitability in ~1/3 of the tested neurons (Figure 7). How were responders and non-responders defined? What justifies this classification? The data for all Cr-treated cells should be pooled. Are there indeed two distributions (responders/non-responders)? Running statistics on pre-selected groups (Figure 7H-J) is meaningless. Given that the effects could be seen 2-8 minutes after Cr application - at what time points were the data shown in Figure 7E-J collected? Is the Cr group shown in Figure 7F significantly different from the control group/wash?

      The responders were defined by three criteria: (1) When Cr was applied, the rheobase was increased as compared to both control and wash conditions. (2) The number of total evoked spikes was decreased during Cr application than both control and wash. (3) The number of total evoked spikes was decreased at least by 10% than control or wash.

      For all the individual responders, when Cr was applied, the rheobase was increased (Figure 7E and 7F). While in individual non-responders, the rheobase was either identical to both control and wash (n=19/35), identical to either control or wash (n=11/35), between control and wash (n=2/35) or smaller than both control and wash (n=3/35) following Cr application. Thus, the responders and non-responders were separatable. When the rheobase data were pulled together, many points were overlapped, so we did not pull the data here.

      As suggested, we pulled the data of the ratio of spike changes in response to 100 μM Cr application for all neurons together (Author response image 4). Evoked spikes of non-responders were typically (34/35) changed in the range of -10% to 10%.

      Author response image 4.

      Relative changes of total evoked spikes in response to 100 μM Cr. Responders are represented by red dots and non-responders by black dots. Dashed black line indicates 10%. Relative change = (Cr-(Control +wash)/2)/((Control +wash)/2)*100%.

      In Figure 7E-J, we collected data at time points when the maximal response was reached. The Cr group shown in Figure 7F was indeed significantly different from the control group/wash (p<0.05, paired t test, for data points collected under 75-500 pA current injection).

      6) Indirect effects: The phenotypes could be partially caused by indirect effects of perturbing the Cr/PCr/CK system, which is known to play essential roles in ATP regeneration, Ca2+ homeostasis, neurotransmission, intracellular signaling systems, axonal and dendritic transport... Similarly, high GAMT levels were reported for astrocytes (e.g., Schmidt et al. 2004; doi: 10.1093/hmg/ddh112), and changes in astrocytic Cr may underlie the phenotypes. Cr has been also reported to be an osmolyte: a hyperosmotic shock of astrocytes induced an increase in Cr uptake, suggesting that Cr can work as a compensatory osmolyte (Alfieri et al. 2006; doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2006.115006). Potential indirect effects are also consistent with a trend towards decreased KCl-induced GABA (and Glutamate) release in SLC6A8-/Y (Figure 5C). These indirect effects may in part explain the phenotypes seen after perturbing Agat, SLC6A8, and should be thoroughly discussed.

      We discussed the possibility of creatine/phosphocreatine as non-transmitters in discussion part. We added the possibility of astrocytic Cr in discussion part. KCl-induced GABA (and Glutamate) release in SLC6A8-/Y (Figure 5C) was not significant.

      7) As stated by the authors, there is some evidence that Cr may act as a co-transmitter for GABAA receptors (although only at high concentrations). Would a GABAA blocker decrease the fraction of cells with decreased excitability after Cr exposure?

      We performed another experiment in CA1 pyramidal neurons in hippocampus showing that Cr at 100 μM did not change GABAergic neurotransmission (n=8, Author response image 5). Inhibitory postsynaptic currents (IPSCs) recorded in the presence of glutamate receptor blockers (10 μM APV and 10 μM CNQX) were not changed by 100 μM creatine in hippocampal CA1 pyramidal neurons (Bgroup data of IPSC frequency (B) and amplitude (C) averaged in 1 min duration). These did not support Cr activation of GABAA receptors.

      Author response image 5.

      IPSCs recorded in in hippocampal CA1 pyramidal neurons. (A) representative raw traces before (Control), during (Creatine) and after (Wash) the application of 100 μM creatine. (B&C) group data of IPSC frequency (B) and amplitude (C) averaged in 1 min duration.

      8) The statement "Our results have also satisfied the criteria of Purves et al. 67,68, because the presence of postsynaptic receptors can be inferred by postsynaptic responses." (l.568) is not supported by the data and should be removed.

      We have deleted this sentence, though what could mediate postsynaptic responses other than receptors?

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      SUMMARY:

      The manuscript by Bian et al. promotes the idea that creatine is a new neurotransmitter. The authors conduct an impressive combination of mass spectrometry (Fig. 1), genetics (Figs. 2, 3, 6), biochemistry (Figs. 2, 3, 8), immunostaining (Fig. 4), electrophysiology (Figs. 5, 6, 7), and EM (Fig. 8) in order to offer support for the hypothesis that creatine is a CNS neurotransmitter.

      We thank the reviewer for the summary.

      STRENGTHS:

      There are many strengths to this study.

      • The combinatorial approach is a strength. There is no shortage of data in this study.

      • The careful consideration of specific criteria that creatine would need to meet in order to be considered a neurotransmitter is a strength.

      • The comparison studies that the authors have done in parallel with classical neurotransmitters are helpful.

      • Demonstration that creatine has inhibitory effects is another strength.

      • The new genetic mutations for Slc6a8 and AGAT are strengths and potentially incredibly helpful for downstream work.

      WEAKNESSES:

      • Some data are indirect. Even though Slc6a8 and AGAT are helpful sentinels for the presence of creatine, they are not creatine themselves. Therefore, the conclusions that are drawn should be circumspect.

      SLC6A8 and AGAT mutants are not essential for Cr’s role as a neurotransmitter.

      • Regarding Slc6a8, it seems to work only as a reuptake transporter - not as a transporter into SVs. Therefore, we do not know what the transporter is.

      Indeed, SLC6A8 is only a transporter on the cytoplasmic membrane, not a transporter on synaptic vesicles. We have shown biochemistry here, and we have unpublished data that showed other SLCs on SVs, which did not include SLC6A8.

      • Puzzlingly, Slc6a8 and AGAT are in different cells, setting up the complicated model that creatine is created in one cell type and then processed as a neurotransmitter in another.

      • No candidate receptor for creatine has been identified postsynaptically.

      • Because no candidate receptor has been identified, is it possible that creatine is exerting its effects indirectly through other inhibitory receptors (e.g., GABAergic Rs)?

      As shown in our response to Question 7 of Reviewer 2, Cr did not exert its effects through inhibitory GABAA receptors.

      • More broadly, what are the other possibilities for roles of creatine that would explain these observations other than it being a neurotransmitter? Could it simply be a modifier that exists in the SVs (lots of molecules exist in SVs)?

      We discussed the possibility of a non-transmitter role for creatine/phosphocreatine in discussion part.

      • The biochemical studies are helpful in terms of comparing relevant molecules (e.g., Figs. 8 and S1), but the images of the westerns are all so fuzzy that there are questions about processing and the accuracy of the quantification.

      Multiple members (>4) have carried out SV purifications repeatedly over the last decade in our group, we are highly confident of SV purifications presented in Figs. 8 and S1.

      There are several criteria that define a neurotransmitter. The authors nicely delineated many criteria in their discussion, but it is worth it for readers to do the same with their own understanding of the data.

      By this reviewer's understanding (and the Purves' textbook definition) a neurotransmitter: 1) must be present within the presynaptic neuron and stored in vesicles; 2) must be released by depolarization of the presynaptic terminal; 3) must require Ca2+ influx upon depolarization prior to release; 4) must bind specific receptors present on the postsynaptic cell; 5) exogenous transmitter can mimic presynaptic release; 6) there exists a mechanism of removal of the neurotransmitter from the synaptic cleft.

      6 criteria seem to be only required by the reviewer. As discussed in our Discussion part, Purves’ textbook did not list 6 criteria but only three criteria, “the substance must be present within the presynaptic neuron; the substance must be released in response to presynaptic depolarization, and the release must be Ca2+ dependent; specific receptors for the substance be present on the postsynaptic cell” (Purves et al., 2001, 2016).

      Kandel et al. (2013, 2021) listed 4 criteria for a neurotransmitter: “it is synthesized in the presynaptic neuron; it is present within vesicles and is released in amounts sufficient to exert a defined action on the postsynaptic neuron or effector organ; when administered exogenously in reasonable concentrations it mimics the action of the endogenous transmitter; a specific mechanism usually exists for removing the substance from the synaptic cleft”.

      While we agree that any neuroscientist can have his/her own criteria, it is more reasonable to accept the textbooks that have been widely read for decades.

      For a paper to claim that the work has identified a new neurotransmitter, several of these criteria would be met - and the paper would acknowledge in the discussion which ones have not been met. For this particular paper, this reviewer finds that condition 1 is clearly met.

      Conditions 2 and 3 seem to be met by electrophysiology, but there are caveats here. High KCl stimulation is a blunt instrument that will depolarize absolutely everything in the prep all at once and could result in any number of non-specific biological reactions as a result of K+ rushing into all neurons in the prep. Moreover, the results in 0 Ca2+ are puzzling. For creatine (and for the other neurotransmitters), why is there such a massive uptick in release, even when the extracellular saline is devoid of calcium?

      To avoid the disadvantage of high KCl stimulation, we performed optogenetic experiments recently, with encouraging preliminary data. We do not know the source of Ca2+-independent release of Cr and neurotransmitters, though astrocytes are a possibility.

      Condition 4 is not discussed in detail at all. In the discussion, the authors elide the criterion of receptors specified by Purves by inferring that the existence of postsynaptic responses implies the existence of receptors. True, but does it specifically imply the existence of creatinergic receptors? This reviewer does not think that is necessarily the case. The authors should be appropriately circumspect and consider other modes of inhibition that are induced by activation or potentiation of other receptors (e.g., GABAergic or glycinergic).

      Our results did not support Cr stimulation of inhibitory GABAA receptors (see our answer to Point 7 in of Reviewer 2).

      Condition 5 may be met, because the authors applied exogenous creatine and observed inhibition (Fig. 7). However, this is tough to know without understanding the effects of endogenous release of creatine. if they were to test if the absence of creatine caused excess excitation (at putative creatinergic synapses), then that would be supportive of the same.

      After the submission of our manuscript, we found a recent paper showing that slc6a8 knockout led to increased excitation in pyramidal neurons in the prefrontal cortex (PFC), with increased firing frequency (Ghirardini et al., 2023). Because we have shown that slc6a8 knockout would cause decrease of Cr in SVs (Figure 2 in our paper), this result provide the evidence described as Condition 5 of this reviewer: that decrease of Cr in SVs led to excess excitation.

      For condition 6, the authors made a great effort with Slc6a8. This is a very tough criterion to understand for many synapses and neurotransmitters.

      In terms of fundamental neuroscience, the story would be impactful if proven correct. There are certainly more neurotransmitters out there than currently identified.

      The impact as framed by the authors in the abstract and introduction for intellectual disability is uncertain (forming a "new basis for ID pathogenesis") and it seems quite speculative beyond the data in this paper.

      We deleted this sentence.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      To strengthen the manuscript, I suggest the following considerations:

      1) The key missing evidence to my mind is a receptor - but this is clearly outside the scope of this paper. Yet, I am surprised that in the list of criteria for neurotransmitters in general there is no mention of a receptor. Furthermore, many receptors have been identified through receptor agonists or antagonists, like neurotoxins or drugs. The authors do not talk about putative receptors except for a sentence in the discussion where they speculate on a GPCR. There are numerous GPCR agonists and antagonists, which may be a long-shot, or something even a bit more designed based on knowledge about creatine? I do not think the publication of this manuscript should have been made dependent on finding an agonist or antagonist of this specific unknown receptor (if it exists), but it would be good to have at least some leads on this from the authors what has been tried or what could be done? How about a manipulation of G-protein-coupled signal transduction to support the idea that there IS such a GPCR? There may be a real opportunity here to test existing compounds in wild type, the slc6a8 and agat mutants.

      We will keep trying, but accept the reality that Rome was not built in a single day and that no transmitter was proven by one single paper.

      A key new puzzle piece of evidence is the identification of creatine in synaptic vesicles. The experiment relies heavily on the purity of the SV fraction using the anti-synaptophysin antibody. I am quite sure that these preparations contain many other compartments - and of course a big mix of synaptic (and other) vesicles. Would it be possible to purify with an anti slc6a8 antibody?

      Sl6a8 is expressed in on the plasma membrane of neurons7-9, instead of synaptic vesicles. Consistent with this, we could not detect obvious Slc6a8-HA signal in our starting material (Lane S in Author response image 6) that was used for SV purification. We have tried to purify SVs by HA antibody in Slc6a8 mice and SV markers could not be detected.

      Author response image 6.

      Lack of Slc6a8-HA in our starting material. In Slc6a8-HA knock-in mice, the HA signal was present in whole brain homogenate (H), but not obvious in supernatants (S) following 35000 × centrifugation. In contrast, SV marker Syp was present in supernatants.

      The K stimulation protocol in slices is relatively crude, as all neurons in the slice get simultaneously overactivated - and some of the effects on Ca-dependent release are not very strong (e.g. the 35 neurons that were not responsive to creatine at all). A primary neuronal culture of neurons that respond to creatine would strengthen this section.

      To avoid the disadvantage of K stimulation, we also performed optogenetic experiments recently and obtained encouraging preliminary results.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) The different sections of the manuscript are not separated by headers.

      2) The beginning of the results section either does not reference the underlying literature or refers to unpublished data.

      We have kept a bit background in the beginning of the Results section.

      3) The text contains many opinions and historical information that are not required (e.g., "It has never been easy to discover a new neurotransmitter, especially one in the central nervous system (CNS). We have been searching for new neurotransmitters for 12 years."; l. 17).

      This is a field that has been dormant for decades and such background introductions are helpful for at least some readers.

      4) Almeida et al. (2008; doi: 10.1002/syn.20280) provided evidence for electrical activity-, and Ca2+-dependent Cr release from rat brain slices. This paper should be introduced in the introduction.

      Those were stand-alone papers which have not been reproduced or paid attention to. Our introduction part did not mention them because our research did not begin with those papers. We had no idea that those papers existed when we began. We started with SV purification and only read those papers afterwards. Thus, they were not necessary background to our paper but can be discussed after we discovered Cr in SVs.

      5) Fig. 7: A Y-scale for the stimulation protocol is missing.

      Revised.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The main suggestion by this reviewer (beyond the details in the public review) is to consider the full spectrum of biology that is consistent with these results. By my reading, creatine could be a neurotransmitter, but other possibilities also exist, and the authors need to highlight those too.

      We have discussed non-transmitter role in the discussion.

      References

      Ghirardini, E., G. Sagona, A. Marquez-Galera, F. Calugi, C. M. Navarron, F. Cacciante, S. Chen, F. Di Vetta, L. Dada, R. Mazziotti, L. Lupori, E. Putignano, P. Baldi, J. P. Lopez-Atalaya, T. Pizzorusso, and L. Baroncelli. 2023. Cell-specific vulnerability to metabolic failure: the crucial role of parvalbumin expressing neurons in creatine transporter deficiency. Acta Neuropathol Commun, 11: 34. doi: 10.1186/s40478-023-01533-w.

      Lowe, M. T., Faull, R. L., Christie, D. L. & Waldvogel, H. J. Distribution of the creatine transporter throughout the human brain reveals a spectrum of creatine transporter immunoreactivity. J Comp Neurol 523, 699-725 (2015). https://doi.org:10.1002/cne.23667

      Mak, C. S. et al. Immunohistochemical localisation of the creatine transporter in the rat brain. Neuroscience 163, 571-585 (2009). https://doi.org:10.1016/j.neuroscience.2009.06.065.

      Molchanova, S. M., Oja, S. S. & Saransaari, P. Mechanisms of enhanced taurine release under Ca2+ depletion. Neurochem Int 47, 343-349 (2005). https://doi.org:10.1016/j.neuint.2005.04.027

      Philibert, R. A., Rogers, K. L. & Dutton, G. R. K+-evoked taurine efflux from cerebellar astrocytes: on the roles of Ca2+ and Na+. Neurochem Res 14, 43-48 (1989). https://doi.org:10.1007/BF00969756

      Rosko, L. M. et al. Cerebral Creatine Deficiency Affects the Timing of Oligodendrocyte Myelination. J Neurosci 43, 1143-1153 (2023). https://doi.org:10.1523/JNEUROSCI.2120-21.2022

      Saransaari, P. & Oja, S. S. Characteristics of taurine release in slices from adult and developing mouse brain stem. Amino Acids 31, 35-43 (2006). https://doi.org:10.1007/s00726-006-0290-5

      Schmidt, A. et al. Severely altered guanidino compound levels, disturbed body weight homeostasis and impaired fertility in a mouse model of guanidinoacetate N-methyltransferase (GAMT) deficiency. Hum Mol Genet 13, 905-921 (2004). https://doi.org:10.1093/hmg/ddh112

      Speer, O. et al. Creatine transporters: a reappraisal. Mol Cell Biochem 256-257, 407-424 (2004). https://doi.org:10.1023/b:mcbi.0000009886.98508.e7

      Takuma, K. et al. Ca2+ depletion facilitates taurine release in cultured rat astrocytes. Jpn J Pharmacol 72, 75-78 (1996). https://doi.org:10.1254/jjp.72.75

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This valuable paper examines gene expression differences between male and female individuals over the course of flower development in the dioecious angiosperm Trichosantes pilosa. The authors show that male-biased genes evolve faster than female-biased and unbiased genes. This is frequently observed in animals, but this is the first report of such a pattern in plants. In spite of the limited sample size, the evidence is mostly solid and the methods appropriate for a non-model organism. The resources produced will be used by researchers working in the Cucurbitaceae, and the results obtained advance our understanding of the mechanisms of plant sexual reproduction and its evolutionary implications: as such they will broadly appeal to evolutionary biologists and plant biologists.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The evolution of dioecy in angiosperms has significant implications for plant reproductive efficiency, adaptation, evolutionary potential, and resilience to environmental changes. Dioecy allows for the specialization and division of labor between male and female plants, where each sex can focus on specific aspects of reproduction and allocate resources accordingly. This division of labor creates an opportunity for sexual selection to act and can drive the evolution of sexual dimorphism.

      In the present study, the authors investigate sex-biased gene expression patterns in juvenile and mature dioecious flowers to gain insights into the molecular basis of sexual dimorphism. They find that a large proportion of the plant transcriptome is differentially regulated between males and females with the number of sex-biased genes in floral buds being approximately 15 times higher than in mature flowers. The functional analysis of sex-biased genes reveals that chemical defense pathways against herbivores are up-regulated in the female buds along with genes involved in the acquisition of resources such as carbon for fruit and seed production, whereas male buds are enriched in genes related to signaling, inflorescence development and senescence of male flowers. Furthermore, the authors implement sophisticated maximum likelihood methods to understand the forces driving the evolution of sex-biased genes. They highlight the influence of positive and relaxed purifying selection on the evolution of male-biased genes, which show significantly higher rates of non-synonymous to synonymous substitutions than female or unbiased genes. This is the first report (to my knowledge) highlighting the occurrence of this pattern in plants. Overall, this study provides important insights into the genetic basis of sexual dimorphism and the evolution of reproductive genes in Cucurbitaceae.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study uses transcriptome sequence from a dioecious plant to compare evolutionary rates between genes with male- and female-biased expression and distinguish between relaxed selection and positive selection as causes for more rapid evolution. These questions have been explored in animals and algae, but few studies have investigated this in dioecious angiosperms, and none have so far identified faster rates of evolution in male-biased genes (though see Hough et al. 2014 https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1319227111).

      Strengths:

      The methods are appropriate to the questions asked. Both the sample size and the depth of sequencing are sufficient, and the methods used to estimate evolutionary rates and the strength of selection are appropriate. The data presented are consistent with faster evolution of genes with male-biased expression, due to both positive and relaxed selection.

      This is a useful contribution to understanding the effect of sex-biased expression in genetic evolution in plants. It demonstrates the range of variation in evolutionary rates and selective mechanisms, and provides further context to connect these patterns to potential explanatory factors in plant diversity such as the age of sex chromosomes and the developmental trajectories of male and female flowers.

      Weaknesses:

      The presence of sex chromosomes is a potential confounding factor, since there are different evolutionary expectations for X-linked, Y-linked, and autosomal genes. Attempting to distinguish transcripts on the sex chromosomes from autosomal transcripts could provide additional insight into the relative contributions of positive and relaxed selection.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The potential for sexual selection and the extent of sexual dimorphism in gene expression have been studied in great detail in animals, but hardly examined in plants so far. In this context, the study by Zhao, Zhou et al. al represents a welcome addition to the literature.

      Relative to the previous studies in Angiosperms, the dataset is interesting in that it focuses on reproductive rather than somatic tissues (which makes sense to investigate sexual selection), and includes more than a single developmental stage (buds + mature flowers).<br /> Some aspects of the presentation have been improved in this new version of the manuscript.

      Specifically:

      • the link between sex-biased and tissue-biased genes is now slightly clearer,

      • the limitation related to the de novo assembled transcriptome is now formally acknowledged,

      • the interpretation of functional categories of the genes identified is more precise,

      • the legends of supplementary figures have been improved - a large number of typos have been fixed.

      in response to this first round of reviews. As I detail below, many of the relevant and constructive suggestions by the previous reviewers were not taken into account in this revision.

      For instance:

      • Reviewer 2 made precise suggestions for trying to take into account the potential confounding factor of sex-chromosomes. This suggestion was not followed.

      For the question of reviewer 2:

      The presence of sex chromosomes is a potential confounding factor, since there are different evolutionary expectations for X-linked, Y-linked, and autosomal genes. Attempting to distinguish transcripts on the sex chromosomes from autosomal transcripts could provide additional insight into the relative contributions of positive and relaxed selection.

      Empirically, the analyses could be expanded by an attempt to distinguish between genes on the autosomes and the sex chromosomes. Genotypic patterns can be used to provisionally assign transcripts to XY or XX-like behavior when all males are heterozygous and all females are homozygous (fixed X-Y SNPs) and when all females are heterozygous and males are homozygous (lost or silenced Y genes). Comparing such genes to autosomal genes with sex-biased expression would sharpen the results because there are different expectations for the efficacy of selection on sex chromosomes. See this paper (Hough et al. 2014; https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1319227111), which should be cited and does in fact identify faster substitution rates in Y-linked genes.

      Authors’ response: We have cited Hough et al. (2014) and Sandler et al. (2018) in the revised manuscript. We agree that the presence of sex chromosomes is potentially a confounding factor. By adopting methods in Hough et al. (2014) and Sandler et al. (2018), we tried to distinguish transcripts on sex chromosomes from autosomal chromosomes. For a total of 2,378 unbiased genes, we found that 36 genes were putatively sex chromosomal genes, 20 of which were exclusively heterozygous and homozygous for males and females, respectively; while the other 16 genes showing an opposite genotyping patterns between males and females. For 343 male-biased genes, only three ones exhibit a pattern of potentially sex-linked. For the 1,145 female-biased genes, we identified 19 genes which might located on the sex chromosomes. Among the 19 genes, five genes were exclusively heterozygous for males and exclusively homozygous for females, while reversed genotyping patterns presented in the other 14 genes. So, sex-linked genes may contribute relatively little to rapid evolution of male-biased genes. An alternative explanation is that the results could be unreliable due to small sample sizes. Thus, we did not describe them in the Results section. We will investigate the issue when whole genome sequences and population datasets become available in the near future.

      • Reviewer 1 & 3 indicated that results were mentioned in the discussion section without having been described before. This was not fixed in this new version.

      For the question of reviewer 1:

      2) Paragraph (407-416) describes the analysis of duplicated genes under relaxed selection but there is no mention of this in the results.

      Authors’ response: Following this suggestion, in the Results section, we have added a sentence, “We also found that most of them were members of different gene families generated by gene duplication (Table S13)” on line 310-311 in the revised manuscript (Rapid_evolution_of_malebiased_genes_Trichosanthes_pilosa_Tracked_change_2023_11_06.docx).

      For the question of reviewer 1:

      38- line 417-424. The discussion should not contain new results.

      Authors’ response: Thank you for pointing out this. In the Results section, we have added a few sentences as following: “Similarly, given that dN/dS values of sex-biased genes were higher due to codon usage bias, lower dS rates would be expected in sex-biased genes relative to unbiased genes (Ellegren & Parsch, 2007; Parvathy et al., 2022). However, in our results, the median of dS values in male-biased genes were much higher than those in female-biased and unbiased genes in the results of ‘free-ratio’ (Fig. S4A, female-biased versus male-biased genes, P = 6.444e-12 and malebiased versus unbiased genes, P = 4.564e-13) and ‘two-ratio’ branch model (Fig. S4B, femalebiased versus male-biased genes, P = 2.2e-16 and male-biased versus unbiased genes, P = 9.421e08, respectively). ” on line 323-331, and consequently, removed the following sentence, “femalebiased vs male-biased genes, P = 6.444e-12 and male-biased vs unbiased genes, P = 4.564e-13” and “female-biased versus male-biased genes, P = 2.2e-16 and male-biased versus unbiased genes, P = 9.421e-08, respectively” in the Discussion section.

      • Reviewer 1 asked for a comparison between the number of de novo assembled unigenes in this transcriptome and the number of genes in other Cucurbitaceae species. I could not see this comparison reported.

      Authors’ response: In the first revision, we described only percentages. We have now added the number of genes. We modify this part as follows: “The majority of unigenes were annotated by homologs in species of Cucurbitaceae (61.6%, 36,375), including Momordica charantia (16.3%, 9,625), Cucumis melo (11.9%, 7,027), Cucurbita pepo (11.9%, 7,027), Cucurbita moschata (11.5%, 6,791), Cucurbita maxima (10.1%, 5,964) and other species (38.4%, 22,676) (Fig. S1C).”.

      • Reviewer 1 pointed out that permutation tests were more appropriate, but no change was made to the manuscript.

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestion. In the first revision, we have indirectly responded to the issues. Wilcoxon rank sum test is more commonly used for all comparisons between sex-biased and unbiased genes in many papers. Additionally, we tested datasets using permutation t-tests, which is consistent with the results of Wilcoxon rank sum test. For example, we found that only in floral buds, there are significant differences in ω values in the results of ‘free-ratio’ (female-biased versus male-biased genes, P = 0.04282 and male-biased versus unbiased genes, P = 0.01114) and ‘two-ratio’ model (female-biased versus male-biased genes, P = 0.01992 and male-biased versus unbiased genes, P = 0.02127, respectively). We also described these results in the Results section accordingly (line 278-284).

      • Reviewer 3 pointed out the small sample size (both for the RNA-seq and the phylogenetic analysis), but again this limitation is not acknowledged very clearly.

      Authors’ response: Sorry, we acknowledged that our sample size was relatively small. In the revised version, we have added a sentence as follows, “Additionally, our sample size is relatively small, and may provide low power to detect differential expression.” in the Discussion section.

      • Reviewer 1 & 3 pointed out that Fig 3 was hard to understand and asked for clarifications that I did not see in the text and the figure in unchanged.

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We have revised the manuscript to clarify the meaning of the acronym (F1TGs, F2TGs, M1TGs, M2TGs, F1BGs, F2BGs, M1BGs and M2BGs) and presented the number of genes. We have added two labels, indicating that panels A and B correspond to males and C and D to females in Fig. 3.

      • Reviewer 3 suggested to combine all genes with sex-bias expression when evaluating the evolutionary rate, in addition to the analyses already done. This suggestion was not followed.

      For the question of reviewer 3:line 196 and following: In these analyses, I could not understand the rationale for keeping buds vs mature flowers as separate analyses throughout. Why not combine both and use the full set of genes showing sex-bias in any tissue? This would increase the power and make the presentation of the results a lot more straightforward.

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. In the first revision, we tried to respond to the issues. First, we observed strong sexual dimorphism in floral buds, such as racemose versus solitary, early-flowering versus late-flowering. Second, as you pointed out earlier, “the dataset is interesting in that it focuses on reproductive rather than somatic tissues (which makes sense to investigate sexual selection), and includes more than a single developmental stage (buds + mature flowers)”, we totally agree with you on this point. Third, according to your suggestions, we combined all genes with sex-bias expression to evaluate the evolutionary rates. We found significant differences (please see a Figure below) in ω values in the results of ‘free-ratio’ (female-biased versus male-biased genes, P =0.005622 and male-biased versus unbiased genes, P = 0.001961) and ‘two-ratio’ model (female-biased versus male-biased genes, P = 0.008546 and male-biased versus unbiased genes, P = 0.009831, respectively) using Wilcoxon rank sum test. However, the significance is lower than previous results in floral buds due to sex-biased genes of mature flower joined, especially compared to the results of “free-ratio model”. Additionally, we also test all combined genes with sex-bias expression using permutation t-test. Unfortunately, there are no significant differences in ω values expect for male-biased versus unbiased genes in the results of ‘free-ratio’ model (P = 0.03034) and ‘two-ratio’ model (P = 0.0376), respectively. To a certain extent, the combination of all genes with sex-bias expression may cover the signals of rapid evolution of sex-biased genes in floral buds. Therefore, these results are not described in our manuscript. In the near future, we would like to make further investigations through more development stages of flowers and new technologies (e.g. Single-Cell method, See Murat et al., 2023) in each sex to consolidate the conclusion, and it is hoped that we could find more meaningful results.

      Author response image 1.

      • Reviewer 3 pointed out that hand-picking specific categories of genes was not statistically valid, and in fact not necessary in the present context. This was not changed.

      For the question of reviewer3: removing genes on a post-hoc basis seems statistically suspicious to me. I don't think your analysis has enough power to hand-pick specific categories of genes, and it is not clear what this brings here. I suggest simply removing these analyses and paragraphs.

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We have changed them accordingly. We removed a part of the following paragraph, “To confirm the contributions of positive selection and relaxed selection to rapid rates of male-biased genes in floral buds, we generated three datasets of OGs by excluding different sets of genes. Specifically, we excluded 18 relaxed selective male-biased genes (5.23%), 98 positively selected male-biased genes (28.57%), and 112 male-biased genes (32.65%) under positive and relaxed selection from 343 OGs (Fig. S4). We observed that after excluding male-biased genes under relaxed purifying selection, the median (0.264) decreased by 0.34% compared to the median (0.265) of all OGs (Fig. S4A-B). However, after excluding positively selected male-biased genes, the median (0.236) was reduced by 11% (Fig. S4A, C) in the results of ‘free-ratio’ branch model. This pattern was consistent with the results of ‘two-ratio’ branch model as well (Fig. S4E-G).” on line 290 to 300.

      However, we kept the following paragraph, “We also analyzed female-biased and unbiased genes that underwent positive and relaxed selection in floral buds (Tables S6-S10). We identified 216 (18.86%) positively selected, and 69 (6.03%) relaxed selective female-biased genes from 1,145 OGs, respectively. Similarly, we found 436 (18.33%) positively selected, and 43 (1.81%) unbiased genes under relaxed selection from 2,378 OGs, respectively. Notably, male-biased genes have a higher proportion (10%) of positively selected genes compared to female-biased and unbiased genes. However, relaxed selective male-biased genes have a higher proportion (3.24%) than unbiased genes, but about 0.8% lower than that of female-biased genes.”. In this way, we can compare the proportion of sex-biased genes that have undergone positive selection and release selection among female-biased genes, unbiased genes and male-biased genes in floral buds in the Discussion section.

      • Reviewer 1 asked for all data to be public, but I could not find in the manuscript where the link to the data on ResearchGate was provided.

      Authors’ response: We have added a link in the Data Availability section.

      • Reviewers 1 & 3 pointed out that since only two tissues were compared, the claims on pleiotropy should have been toned down, but no change was made to the text.

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We revised “due to low pleiotropic constraints” to “due to low evolutionary constraints” and revised “low pleiotropy” to “low constraints”.

      • Reviewer 1 asked for a clarification on which genes are plotted on the heatmap of Fig3C and an explanation of the color scale. No change was made.

      Authors’ response: Sorry for the confusion. Actually, Reviewer 1 asked that “Fig. 2C, which genes are plotted on the heatmap and what is the color scale corresponding to?” In the previous revision, we have revised them (See Fig. 2 Sex-biased gene expression for floral buds and flowers at anthesis in males and females of Trichosanthes pilosa). Sex-biased genes (the union of sex-biased genes in F1, M1, F2 and M2) are plotted on the heatmap. The color gradient represents from high to low (from red to green) gene expression.

      • Reviewer 1 asked for panel B in Fig S5 and S6 to be removed. They are still there. They asked for abbreviations to be explained in the legend of Fig S8. This was not done. They asked for details about columns headers. Such detailed were not added. They asked for more recent references on line 53-56: this was not done.

      Authors’ response: We have removed panel B in Fig. S5 and S6. We explained abbreviations in text and Fig. S8. We added more details about the column headers in Supplementary Table S4, S5, S6, S7, S8, S9 and S10. We also added more recent references on line 53-56.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We have revised/fixed these issues following your concerns and suggestions.

      Line 46-48 would be clearer as « Sexual dimorphism is the condition where sexes of the same species exhibit different morphological, ecological and physiological traits in gonochoristic animals and dioecious plants, despite male and female individuals sharing the same genome except for sex chromosomes or sex-determining loci »

      Authors’ response: Thanks. We have revised it accordingly.

      Line 50: replace «in both » by «between the two »

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      Line 51: « genes exclusively » -> « genes expressed exclusively »

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      Line 58: « in many animals » -> « in several animal species »

      Authors’ response: We have revised it to “in some animal species”.

      Line 58: « to which » -> « of this bias »

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      Line 64: « Most dioecious plants possess homomorphic sex-chromosomes that are roughly similar in size when viewed by light microscopy. » : a reference is missing

      Authors’ response: We have added the reference.

      Line 67: remove « that »

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      line 96: change to: « only the five above-mentioned studies »

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      Line 97: remove « the »

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      Line 111: « Drosophia » -> Drosophila

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      Line 114: exhibiting -> « exhibited »

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      Line 115: suggest -> « suggesting »

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      Line 117: « studies in plants have rarely reported elevated rates of sex-biased genes » : is it « rarely » or « never » ?

      Authors’ response: We have revised to “never”.

      Line 143: « It’s » -> « Its »

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      Line 143-146: say whether the male parts (e.g. anthers) are still present in females flowers, and the female parts (pistil+ ovaries) in the male flowers, or whether these respective organs are fully aborted.

      Authors’ response: We have added the following sentence, “The male parts (e. g., anthers) of female flowers, and the female parts (e. g., pistil and ovaries) of male flowers are fully aborted” in line 148150 of the Introduction section.

      Line 158: this is now clearer, but please specify whether you are talking about 12 floral buds in total, or 12 per individual (i.e. 72 buds in total).

      Authors’ response: We have revised it to “Using whole transcriptome shotgun sequencing, we sequenced floral buds and flowers at anthesis from female and male of dioecious T. pilosa. We set up three biological replicates from three female and three male plants, including 12 samples in total (six floral buds and six flowers at anthesis)”.

      Line 194-198: These sentences are unclear and hard to link to the figure. Consider changing for « In male plants, the number of tissue-biased genes in flowers at anthesis (M2TGs: n = 2795) was higher than that in floral buds (M1TGs: n = 1755, Fig. 3A and 3B). Figure 3 is also very hard to read. Adding a label on the side to indicate that panels A and B correspond to male-biased genes and C and D to female-biased genes could be useful.

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We have revised the text to clarify the meaning of the acronym (F1TGs, F2TGs, M1TGs, M2TGs, F1BGs, F2BGs, M1BGs and M2BGs) and presented the number of genes. We have added two labels, indicating that panels A and B correspond to males and C and D to females in Figure 3.

      Line 208: explain the approach: e.g. « We then compared rates of protein evolution among malebiased, female-biased and unbiased genes. To do this, we sequenced floral bud transcriptomes from the closely related T. anguina, as well as two more distant outgroups, T. kirilowii and Luffa cylindrica. T. kirilowii is a dioecious species like T. pilosa, and the other two are monoecious. We identified one-to-one orthologous groups (OGs) for 1,145 female-biased, 343 male-biased, and 2,378 unbiased genes. »

      Authors’ response: We have revised this paragraph to the following, “We compared rates of protein evolution among male-biased, female-biased and unbiased genes in four species with phylogenetic relationships (((T. anguina, T. pilosa), T. kirilowii), Luffa cylindrica), including dioecious T. pilosa, dioecious T. kirilowii, monoecious T. anguina in Trichosanthes, together with monoecious Luffa cylindrica. To do this, we sequenced transcriptomes of T. pilosa. We also collected transcriptomes of T. kirilowii, as well as genomes of T. anguina and Luffa cylindrica.”

      Line 220: « the same ω value was in all branches » -> « all branches are constrained to have the same ω value ».

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      Line 221: « results of the 'two-ratio' branch model ... »

      Authors’ response: We have revised it.

      Line 235: add a few words to explain why the effect size is bigger than for buds, but still is not significant: e.g. «possibly because of limited statistical power due to the low number of sex-biased genes in flowers at anthesis »

      Authors’ response: We have revised this to “However, there is no statistically significant difference in the distribution of ω values using Wilcoxon rank sum tests for female-biased versus male-biased genes (P = 0.0556), female-biased versus unbiased genes (P = 0.0796), and male-biased versus unbiased genes (P = 0.3296) possibly because of limited statistical power due to the low number of sex-biased genes in flowers at anthesis.” in line 260-261.

      Line 255: explain in plain English what the « A model » is. This was already requested in the previous version.

      Authors’ response: We have revised “A model” to “classical branch-site model A”.

      Line 258: explain in plain English what the « foreground 2b ω value » corresponds to

      Authors’ response: We have revised to as follows, “foreground 2b ω value” to “foreground ω >1”. Additionally, we also added the sentence “The classical branch-site model assumes four site classes (0, 1, 2a, 2b), with different ω values for the foreground and background branches. In site classes 2a and 2b, the foreground branch undergoes positive selection when there is ω > 1.” in line 624-627.

      Line 259: explain how these different approaches complement each other rather than being redundant. This was also already requested in the previous version.

      Authors’ response: Sorry. We have now revised it as follows, “As a complementary approach, we utilized the aBSREL and BUSTED methods that are implemented in HyPhy v.2.5 software, which avoids false positive results by classical branch-site models due to the presence of rate variation in background branches, and detected significant evidence of positive selection.” in line 292-295.

      Line 270: remove « dramatically », and also remove « or eliminated at both gene-wide and genomewide levels », as well as « relative to positive selection »

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We have revised it.

      Line 290-309: remove this section - this was already pointed out in the previous reviews as a « ad hoc » procedure, and this point has already been made clear with the RELAX analysis.

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We revised this section accordingly. We remove the following paragraph, “To confirm the contributions of positive selection and relaxed selection to rapid rates of male-biased genes in floral buds, we generated three datasets of OGs by excluding different sets of genes. Specifically, we excluded 18 relaxed selective male-biased genes (5.23%), 98 positively selected male-biased genes (28.57%), and 112 male-biased genes (32.65%) under positive and relaxed selection from 343 OGs (Fig. S4). We observed that after excluding malebiased genes under relaxed purifying selection, the median (0.264) decreased by 0.34% compared to the median (0.265) of all OGs (Fig. S4A-B). However, after excluding positively selected malebiased genes, the median (0.236) was reduced by 11% (Fig. S4A, C) in the results of ‘free-ratio’ branch model. This pattern was consistent with the results of ‘two-ratio’ branch model as well (Fig. S4E-G).” on line 334-344.

      However, we kept the other parts “We also analyzed female-biased and unbiased genes that underwent positive and relaxed selection in floral buds (Tables S6-S10). We identified 216 (18.86%) positively selected, and 69 (6.03%) relaxed selective female-biased genes from 1,145 OGs, respectively. Similarly, we found 436 (18.33%) positively selected, and 43 (1.81%) unbiased genes under relaxed selection from 2,378 OGs, respectively. Notably, male-biased genes have a higher proportion (10%) of positively selected genes compared to female-biased and unbiased genes. However, relaxed selective male-biased genes have a higher proportion (3.24%) than unbiased genes, but about 0.8% lower than that of female-biased genes.”. In this way, we can compare the proportion of sex-biased genes that have undergone positive selection and release selection among female-biased genes, unbiased genes and male-biased genes in floral buds in the Discussion sections.

      Line 348: Here you talk about « Numerous studies », but then only report three studies. Please clarify.

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We have revised it to “Several studies”.

      Line 352: Cut the sentence: « In contrast, the wind-pollinated dioecious plant Populus balsamifera ... »

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We have revised it.

      Line 357: « In contrast to the above studies... »: If I understand correctly, this is not in contrast to the observation in Populus balsamifera. Please clarify.

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We have revised to “Similar to the above study of Populus balsamifera.”.

      Line 420: « our results » -> « we »; « that underwent » -> « undergoing »

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We have revised it.

      Figure 3 is very hard to read and poorly labeled (see my comments on line 194 above). It is also hard to link to the text, since the numbers reported in the text are actually not present in the figure unless the readers makes some calculations themselves. This should be improved. Also, the use of acronyms (e.g. M1BG, F2TG etc.) contributes to making the text very difficult to read. The acronyms should at least be explained very clearly in the text when they are used.

      Authors’ response: Thank you for your suggestions. We have revised the text to clarify the meaning of the acronym (F1TGs, F2TGs, M1TGs, M2TGs, F1BGs, F2BGs, M1BGs and M2BGs) and give the number of genes. We have added two labels, indicating that panels A and B correspond to males and C and D to females in Figure 3.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Review:

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Regarding reviewer #2 public review, we update here our answers to this public review with new analysis and modification done in the manuscript. 

      This manuscript is missing a direct phenotypic comparison of control cells to complement that of cells expressing RhoGEF2-DHPH at "low levels" (the cells that would respond to optogenetic stimulation by retracting); and cells expressing RhoGEF2-DHPH at "high levels" (the cells that would respond to optogenetic stimulation by protruding). In other words, the authors should examine cell area, the distribution of actin and myosin, etc in all three groups of cells (akin to the time zero data from figures 3 and 5, with a negative control). For example, does the basal expression meaningfully affect the PRG low-expressing cells before activation e.g. ectopic stress fibers? This need not be an optogenetic experiment, the authors could express RhoGEF2DHPH without SspB (as in Fig 4G). 

      Updated answer: We thank reviewer #2 for this suggestion. PRG-DHPH overexpression is known to affect the phenotype of the cell as shown in Valon et al., 2017. In our experiments, we could not identify any evidence of a particular phenotype before optogenetic activation apart from the area and spontaneous membrane speed that were already reported in our manuscript (Fig 2E and SuppFig 2). Regarding the distribution of actin and myosin, we did not observe an obvious pattern that will be predictive of the protruding/retracting phenotype. Trying to be more quantitative, we have classified (by eye, without knowing the expression level of PRG nor the future phenotype) the presence of stress fibers, the amount of cortical actin, the strength of focal adhesions, and the circularity of cells. As shown below, when these classes are binned by levels of expression of PRG (two levels below the threshold and two above) there is no clear determinant. Thus, we concluded that the main driver of the phenotype was the PRG basal expression rather than any particularity of the actin cytoskeleton/cell shape.

      Author response image 1.

      Author response image 2.

      Relatedly, the authors seem to assume ("recruitment of the same DH-PH domain of PRG at the membrane, in the same cell line, which means in the same biochemical environment." supplement) that the only difference between the high and low expressors are the level of expression. Given the chronic overexpression and the fact that the capacity for this phenotypic shift is not recruitmentdependent, this is not necessarily a safe assumption. The expression of this GEF could well induce e.g. gene expression changes. 

      Updated answer: We agree with reviewer #2 that there could be changes in gene expression. In the next point of this supplementary note, we had specified it, by saying « that overexpression has an influence on cell state, defined as protein basal activity or concentration before activation. »  We are sorry if it was not clear, and we changed this sentence in the revised manuscript (in red in the supp note). 

      One of the interests of the model is that it does not require any change in absolute concentrations, beside the GEF. The model is thought to be minimal and fits well and explains the data with very few parameters. We do not show that there is no change in concentration, but we show that it is not required to invoke it. We revised a sentence in the new version of the manuscript to include this point.

      Additional answer: During the revision process, we have been looking for an experimental demonstration of the independence of the phenotypic switch to any change in global gene expression pattern due to the chronic overexpression of PRG. Our idea was to be in a condition of high PRG overexpression such that cells protrude upon optogenetic activation, and then acutely deplete PRG to see if cells where then retracting. To deplete PRG in a timescale that prevent any change of gene expression, we considered the recently developed CATCHFIRE (PMID: 37640938) chemical dimerizer. We designed an experiment in which the PRG DH-PH domain was expressed in fusion with a FIRE-tag and co-expressing the FIRE-mate fused to TOM20 together with the optoPRG tool. Upon incubation with the MATCH small molecule, we should be able to recruit the overexpressed PRG to the mitochondria within minutes, hereby preventing it to form a complex with active RhoA in the vicinity of the plasma membrane. Unfortunately, despite of numerous trials we never achieved the required conditions: we could not have cells with high enough expression of PRGFIRE-tag (for protrusive response) and low enough expression of optoPRG (for retraction upon PRGFIRE-tag depletion). We still think this would be a nice experiment to perform, but it will require the establishment of a stable cell line with finely tuned expression levels of the CATCHFIRE system that goes beyond the timeline of our present work.      

      Concerning the overall model summarizing the authors' observations, they "hypothesized that the activity of RhoA was in competition with the activity of Cdc42"; "At low concentration of the GEF, both RhoA and Cdc42 are activated by optogenetic recruitment of optoPRG, but RhoA takes over. At high GEF concentration, recruitment of optoPRG lead to both activation of Cdc42 and inhibition of already present activated RhoA, which pushes the balance towards Cdc42."

      These descriptions are not precise. What is the nature of the competition between RhoA and Cdc42? Is this competition for activation by the GEFs? Is it a competition between the phenotypic output resulting from the effectors of the GEFs? Is it competition from the optogenetic probe and Rho effectors and the Rho biosensors? In all likelihood, all of these effects are involved, but the authors should more precisely explain the underlying nature of this phenotypic switch. Some of these points are clarified in the supplement, but should also be explicit in the main text. 

      Updated answer: We consider the competition between RhoA and Cdc42 as a competition between retraction due to the protein network triggered by RhoA (through ROCK-Myosin and mDia-bundled actin) and the protrusion triggered by Cdc42 (through PAK-Rac-ARP2/3-branched Actin). We made this point explicit in the main text.  

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):  

      Major 

      - why this is only possible for such few cells. Can the authors comment on this in the discussion? Does the model provide any hints? 

      As said in our answer to the public comment or reviewer #1, we think that the low number of cells being able to switch can be explained by two different reasons: 

      (1) First, we were looking for clear inversions of the phenotype, where we could see clear ruffles in the case of the protrusion, and clear retractions in the other case. Thus, we discarded cells that would show in-between phenotypes, because we had no quantitative parameter to compare how protrusive or retractile they were. This reduced the number of switching cells 

      (2) Second, we had a limitation due to the dynamic of the optogenetic dimer used here. Indeed, the control of the frequency was limited by the dynamic of unbinding of the optogenetic dimer. This dynamic of recruitment (~20s) is comparable to the dynamics of the deactivation of RhoA and Cdc42. Thus, the differences in frequency are smoothed and we could not vary enough the frequency to increase the number of switches. Thanks to the model, we can predict that increasing the unbinding rate of the optogenetic tool (shorter dimer lifetime) should allow us to increase the number of switching cells. 

      We have added a sentence in the discussion to make this second point explicit.

      - I would encourage the authors to discuss this molecular signaling switch in the context of general design principles of switches. How generalizable is this network/mechanism? Is it exclusive to activating signaling proteins or would it work with inhibiting mechanisms? Is the competition for the same binding site between activators and effectors a common mechanism in other switches? 

      The most common design principle for molecular switches is the bistable switch that relies on a nonlinear activation (for example through cooperativity) with a linear deactivation. Such a design allows the switch between low and high levels. In our case, there is no need for a non-linearity since the core mechanism is a competition for the same binding site on active RhoA of the activator and the effectors. Thus, the design principle would be closer to the notion of a minimal “paradoxical component” (PMID: 23352242) that both activate and limit signal propagation, which in our case can be thought as a self-limiting mechanism to prevent uncontrolled RhoA activation by the positive feedback. Yet, as we show in our work, this core mechanism is not enough for the phenotypic switch to happen since the dual activation of RhoA and Cdc42 is ultimately required for the protrusion phenotype to take over the retracting one. Given the particularity of the switch we observed here, we do not feel comfortable to speculate on any general design principles in the main text, but we thank reviewer #1 for his/her suggestion.

      - Supplementary figures - there is a discrepancy between the figures called in the text and the supplementary files, which only include SF1-4. 

      We apologize for this error and we made the correction. 

      - In the text, the authors use Supp Figure 7 to show that the phenotype could not be switched by varying the fold increase of recruitment through changing the intensity/duration of the light pulse. Aside from providing the figure, could you give an explanation or speculation of why? Does the model give any prediction as to why this could be difficult to achieve experimentally (is the range of experimentally feasible fold change of 1.1-3 too small? Also, could you clarify why the range is different than the 3 to 10-fold mentioned at the beginning of the results section? 

      We thank the reviewer for this question, and this difference between frequency and intensity can be indeed understood in a simple manner through the model. 

      All the reactions in our model were modeled as linear reactions. Thus, at any timepoint, changing the intensity of the pulse will only change proportionally the amount of the different components (amount of active RhoA, amount of sequestered RhoA, and amount of active Cdc42). This explains why we cannot change the balance between RhoA activity and Cdc42 activity only through the pulse strength. We observed the same experimentally: when we changed the intensity of the pulses, the phenotype would be smaller/stronger, but would never switch, supporting our hypothesis on the linearity of all biochemical reactions. 

      On the contrary, changing the frequency has an effect, for a simple reason: the dynamics of RhoA and Cdc42 activation are not the same as the dynamics of inhibition of RhoA by the PH domain (see

      Figure 4). The inhibition of RhoA by the PH is almost instantaneous while the activation of RhoGTPases has a delay (sets by the deactivation parameter k_2). Intuitively, increasing the frequency will lead to sustained inhibition of RhoA, promoting the protrusion phenotype. Decreasing the frequency – with a stronger pulse to keep the same amount of recruited PRG – restricts this inhibition of RhoA to the first seconds following the activation. The delayed activation of RhoA will then take over. 

      We added two sentences in the manuscript to explain in greater details the difference between intensity and frequency.  

      Regarding the difference between the 1.3-3 fold and the 3 to 10 fold, the explanation is the following: the 3 to 10 fold referred to the cumulative amount of proteins being recruited after multiple activations (steady state amount reached after 5 minutes with one activation every 30s); while the 1.3-3 fold is what can be obtained after only one single pulse of activation.  

      - The transient expression achieves a large range of concentration levels which is a strength in this case. To solve the experimental difficulties associated with this, i.e. finding transfected cells at low cell density, the authors developed a software solution (Cell finder). Since this approach will be of interest for a wide range of applications, I think it would deserve a mention in the discussion part. 

      We thank the reviewer for his/her interest in this small software solution.

      We developed the description of the tool in the Method section. The Cell finder is also available with comments on github (https://github.com/jdeseze/cellfinder) and usable for anyone using Metamorph or Micromanager imaging software. 

      Minor 

      - Can the authors describe what they mean with "cell state"? It is used multiple times in the manuscript and can be interpreted as various things. 

      We now explain what we mean by ‘cell state’ in the main text :

      “protein basal activities and/or concentrations - which we called the cell state”

      - “(from 0% to 45%, Figure 2D)", maybe add here: "compare also with Fig. 2A". 

      We completed the sentence as suggested, which clarifies the data for the readers.

      - The sentence "Given that the phenotype switch appeared to be controlled by the amount of overexpressed optoPRG, we hypothesized that the corresponding leakiness of activity could influence the cell state prior to any activation." might be hard to understand for readers unfamiliar with optogenetic systems. I suggest adding a short sentence explaining dark-state activity/leakiness before putting the hypothesis forward. 

      We changed this whole beginning of the paragraph to clarify.

      - Figure 2E and SF2A. I would suggest swapping these two panels as the quantification of the membrane displacement before activation seems more relevant in this context. 

      We thank reviewer #1 for this suggestion and we agree with it (we swapped the two panels)

      - Fig. 2B is missing the white frames in the mixed panels. 

      We are sorry for this mistake, we changed it in the new version.  

      - In the text describing the experiment of Fig. 4G, it would again be helpful to define what the authors mean by cell state, or to state the expected outcome for both hypotheses before revealing the result.

      We added precisions above on what we meant by cell state, which is the basal protein activities and/or concentrations prior to optogenetic activation. We added the expectation as follow: 

      To discriminate between these two hypotheses, we overexpressed the DH-PH domain alone in another fluorescent channel (iRFP) and recruited the mutated PH at the membrane. “If the binding to RhoA-GTP was only required to change the cell state, we would expect the same statistics than in Figure 2D, with a majority of protruding cells due to DH-PH overexpression. On the contrary, we observed a large majority of retracting phenotype even in highly expressing cells (Figure 4G), showing that the PH binding to RhoA-GTP during recruitment is a key component of the protruding phenotype.”

      - Figure 4H,I: "of cells that overexpress PRG, where we only recruit the PH domain" doesn't match with the figure caption. Are these two constructs in the same cell? If not please clarify the main text. 

      We agree that it was not clear. Both constructs are in the same cell, and we changed the figure caption accordingly.  

      - "since RhoA dominates Cdc42" is this concluded from experiments (if yes, please refer to the figure) or is this known from the literature (if yes, please cite). 

      The assumption that RhoA dominates Cdc42 comes from the fact that we see retraction at low PRG concentration. We assumed that RhoA is responsible for the retraction phenotype. Our assumption is based on the literature (Burridge 2004 as an example of a review, confirmed by many experiments, such as the direct recruitment of RhoA to the membrane, see Berlew 2021) and is supported by our observations of immediate increase of RhoA activity at low PRG. We modified the text to clarify it is an assumption.

      - Fig. 6G  o left: is not intuitive, why are the number of molecules different to start with? 

      The number of molecules is different because they represent the active molecules: increasing the amount of PRG increases the amount of active RhoA and active Cdc42. We updated the figure to clarify this point.

      o right: the y-axis label says "phenotype", maybe change it to "activity" or add a second y-axis on the right with "phenotype"? 

      We updated the figure following reviewer #1 suggestion.

      - Discussion: "or a retraction in the same region" sounds like in the same cell. Perhaps rephrase to state retraction in a similar region? 

      Sorry for the confusion, we change it to be really clear: “a protrusion in the activation region when highly expressed, or a retraction in the activation region when expressed at low concentrations.”

      Typos: 

      - "between 3 and 10 fold" without s. 

      - Fig. 1H, y-axis label. 

      - "whose spectrum overlaps" with s. 

      - "it first decays, and then rises" with s. 

      - Fig 4B and Fig 6B. Is the time in sec or min? (Maybe double-check all figures). 

      - "This result suggests that one could switch the phenotype in a single cell by selecting it for an intermediate expression level of the optoPRG.". 

      - "GEF-H1 PH domain has almost the same inhibition ability as PRG PH domain". 

      We corrected all these mistakes and thank the reviewer for his careful reading of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Likewise, the model assumes that at high PRG GEF expression, the "reaction is happening far from saturation ..." and that "GTPases activated with strong stimuli -giving rise to strong phenotypic changes- lead to only 5% of the proteins in a GTP-state, both for RhoA and Cdc42". Given the high levels of expression (the absolute value of which is not known) this assumption is not necessarily safe to assume. The shift to Cdc42 could indeed result from the quantitative conversion of RhoA into its active state. 

      We agree with the reviewer that the hypothesis that RhoA is fully converted into its active state cannot be completely ruled out. However, we think that the two following points can justify our choice.

      - First, we see that even in the protruding phenotype, RhoA activity is increasing upon optoPRG recruitment (Figure 3). This means that RhoA is not completely turned into its active GTP-loaded state. The biosensor intensity is rising by a factor 1.5 after 5 minutes (and continue to increase, even if not shown here). For sure, it could be explained by the relocation of RhoA to the place of activation, but it still shows that cells with high PRG expression are not completely saturated in RhoA-GTP. 

      - We agree that linearity (no saturation) is still an hypothesis and very difficult to rule out, because it is not only a question of absolute concentrations of GEFs and RhoA, but also a question of their reaction kinetics, which are unknow parameters in vivo. Yet, adding a saturation parameter would mean adding 3 unknown parameters (absolute concentrations of RhoA, as well as two reaction constants). The fact that there are not needed to fit the complex curves of RhoA as we do with only one parameter tends to show that the minimal ingredients representing the interaction are captured here.  

      The observed "inhibition of RhoA by the PH domain of the GEF at high concentrations" could result from the ability of the probe to, upon membrane recruitment, bind to active RhoA (via its PH domain) thereby outcompeting the RhoA biosensor (Figure 4A-C). This reaction is explicitly stated in the supplemental materials ("PH domain binding to RhoA-GTP is required for protruding phenotype but not sufficient, and it is acting as an inhibitor of RhoA activity."), but should be more explicit in the main text. Indeed, even when PRG DHPH is expressed at high concentrations, it does activate RhoA upon recruitment (figure 3GH). Not only might overexpression of this active RhoA-binding probe inhibit the cortical recruitment of the RhoA biosensor, but it may also inhibit the ability of active RhoA to activate its downstream effectors, such as ROCK, which could explain the decrease in myosin accumulation (figure 3D-F). It is not clear that there is a way to clearly rule this out, but it may impact the interpretation. 

      This hypothesis is actually what we claim in the manuscript. We think that the inhibition of RhoA by the PH domain is explained by its direct binding. We may have missed what Reviewer #2 wanted to say, but we think that we state it explicitly in the main text :

      “Knowing that the PH domain of PRG triggers a positive feedback loop thanks to its binding to active RhoA 18, we hypothesized that this binding could sequester active RhoA at high optoPRG levels, thus being responsible for its inhibition.”

      And also in the Discussion:

      “However, this feedback loop can turn into a negative one for high levels of GEF: the direct interaction between the PH domain and RhoA-GTP prevents RhoA-GTP binding to effectors through a competition for the same binding site.”

      We may have not been clear, but we think that this is what is happening: the PH domain prevents the binding to effectors and decreases RhoA activity (as was shown in Chen et al. 2010).  

      The X-axis in Figure 4C time is in seconds not minutes. The Y-axis in Figure 4H is unlabeled. 

      We are sorry for the mistake of Figure 4C. We changed the Y-axis in the Figure 4h.  

      Although this publication cites some of the relevant prior literature, it fails to cite some particularly relevant works. For example, the authors state, "The LARG DH domain was already used with the iLid system" and refers to a 2018 paper (ref 19), whereas that domain was first used in 2016 (PMID 27298323). Indeed, the authors used the plasmid from this 2016 paper to build their construct. 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this error, we have corrected the citation and put the seminal one in the revised version.

      An analogous situation pertains to previous work that showed that an optogenetic probe containing the DH and PH domains in RhoGEF2 is somewhat toxic in vivo (table 6; PMID 33200987). Furthermore, it has previously been shown that mutation of the equivalent of F1044A and I1046E eliminates this toxicity (table 6; PMID 33200987) in vivo. This is particularly important because the Rho probe expressing RhoGEF2-DHPH is in widespread usage (76 citations in PubMed). The ability of this probe to activate Cdc42 may explain some of the phenotypic differences described resulting from the recruitment of RhoGEF2-DHPH and LARG-DH in a developmental context (PMID 29915285, 33200987). 

      We thank reviewer #2 for these comments, and added a small section in the discussion, for optogenetic users: 

      This underlines the attention that needs to be paid to the choice of specific GEF domains when using optogenetic tools. Tools using DH-PH domains of PRG have been widely used, both in mammalian cells and in Drosophila (with the orthologous gene RhoGEF2), and have been shown to be toxic in some contexts in vivo 28. Our study confirms the complex behavior of this domain which cannot be reduced to a simple RhoA activator.   

      Concerning the experiment shown in 4D, it would be informative to repeat this experiment in which a non-recruitable DH-PH domain of PRG is overexpressed at high levels and the DH domain of LARG is recruited. This would enable the authors to distinguish whether the protrusion response is entirely dependent on the cell state prior to activation or the combination of the cell state prior to activation and the ability of PRG DHPH to also activate Cdc42. 

      We thank the reviewer for his suggestion. Yet, we think that we have enough direct evidence that the protruding phenotype is due to both the cell state prior to activation and the ability of PRG DHPH to also activate Cdc42. First, we see a direct increase in Cdc42 activity following optoPRG recruitment (see Figure 6). This increase is sustained in the protruding phenotype and precedes Rac1 and RhoA activity, which shows that it is the first of these three GTPases to be activated. Moreover, we showed that inhibition of PAK by the very specific drug IPA3 is completely abolishing only the protruding phenotype, which shows that PAK, a direct effector of Cdc42 and Rac1, is required for the protruding phenotype to happen. We know also that the cell state prior to activation is defining the phenotype, thanks to the data presented in Figure 2. 

      We further showed in Figure 1 that LARG DH-PH domain was not able to promote protrusion. The proposed experiment would be interesting to confirm that LARG does not have the ability to activate another GTPase, even in a different cell state with overexpressed PRG. However, we are not sure it would bring any substantial findings to understand the mechanism we describe here, given the facts provided above.  

      Similarly, as PRG activates both Cdc42 and Rho at high levels, it would be important to determine the extent to which the acute Rho activation contributes to the observed phenotype (e.g. with Rho kinase inhibitor). 

      We agree with the reviewer that it would be interesting to know whether RhoA activation contributes to the observed phenotype, and we have tried such experiments. 

      For Rho kinase inhibitor, we tried with Y-27632 and we could never prevent the protruding phenotype to happen. However, we could not completely abolish the retracting phenotype either (even when the effect on the cells was quite strong and visible), which could be due to other effectors compensating for this inhibition. As RhoA has many other effectors, it does not tell us that RhoA is not required for protrusion. 

      We also tried with C3, which is a direct inhibitor of RhoA. However, it had too much impact on the basal state of the cells, making it impossible to recruit (cells were becoming round and clearly dying. As both the basal state and optogenetic activation require the activation of RhoA, it is hard to conclude out of experiments where no cell is responding. 

      The ability of PRG to activate Cdc42 in vivo is striking given the strong preference for RhoA over Cdc42 in vitro (2400X) (PMID 23255595). Is it possible that at these high expression levels, much of the RhoA in the cell is already activated, so that the sole effect that recruited PRG can induce is activation of Cdc42? This is related to the previous point pertaining to absolute expression levels.  

      As discussed before, we think that it is not only a question of absolute expression levels, but also of the affinities between the different partners. But Reviewer #2 is right, there is a competition between the activation of RhoA and Cdc42 by optoPRG, and activation of Cdc42 probably happens at higher concentration because of smaller effective affinity.

      Still, we know that activation of the Cdc42 by PRG DH-PH domain is possible in vivo, as it was very clearly shown in Castillo-Kauil et al., 2020 (PMID 33023908). They show that this activation requires the linker between DH and PH domain of PRG, as well as Gαs activation, which requires a change in PRG DH-PH conformation. This conformational switch does not happen in vitro, which might explain why the affinity against Cdc42 was found to be very low. 

      Minor points 

      In both the abstract and the introduction the authors state, "we show that a single protein can trigger either protrusion or retraction when recruited to the plasma membrane, polarizing the cell in two opposite directions." However, the cells do not polarize in opposite directions, ie the cells that retract do not protrude in the direction opposite the retraction (or at least that is not shown). Rather a single protein can trigger either protrusion or retraction when recruited to the plasma membrane, depending upon expression levels. 

      We thank the reviewer for this remark, and we agree that we had not shown any data supporting a change in polarization. We solved this issue, by showing now in Supplementary Figure 1 the change in areas in both the activated and in the not activated region. The data clearly show that when a protrusion is happening, the cell retracts in the non-activated region. On the other hand, when the cell retracts, a protrusion happens in the other part of the cell, while the total area is staying approximately constant. 

      We added the following sentence to describe our new figure:

      Quantification of the changes in membrane area in both the activated and non-activated part of the cell (Supp Figure 1B-C) reveals that the whole cell is moving, polarizing in one direction or the other upon optogenetic activation.

      While the authors provide extensive quantitative data in this manuscript and quantify the relative differences in expression levels that result in the different phenotypes, it would be helpful to quantify the absolute levels of expression of these GEFs relative to e.g. an endogenously expressed GEF. 

      We agree with the reviewer comment, and we also wanted to have an idea of the absolute level of expression of GEFs present in these cells to be able to relate fluorescent intensities with absolute concentrations. We tried different methods, especially with the purified fluorescent protein, but having exact numbers is a hard task.

      We ended up quantifying the amount of fluorescent protein within a stable cell line thanks to ELISA and comparing it with the mean fluorescence seen under the microscope. 

      We estimated that the switch concentration was around 200nM, which is 8 times more than the mean endogenous concentration according to https://opencell.czbiohub.org/, but should be reachable locally in wild type cell, or globally in mutated cancer cells. 

      Given the numerical data (mostly) in hand, it would be interesting to determine whether RhoGEF2 levels, cell area, the pattern of actin assembly, or some other property is most predictive of the response to PRG DHPH recruitment. 

      We think that the manuscript made it clear that the concentration of PRG DHPH is almost 100% predictive of the response to PRG DHPH. We believe that other phenotypes such as the cell area or the pattern of actin assembly would only be consequences of this. Interestingly, as experimentators we were absolutely not able to predict the behavior by only seeing the shape of the cell, event after hundreds of activation experiments, and we tried to find characteristics that would distinguish both populations with the data in our hands and could not find any.

      There is some room for general improvement/editing of the text. 

      We tried our best to improve the text, following reviewers suggestions.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Audio et al. measured cerebral blood volume (CBV) across cortical areas and layers using high-resolution MRI with contrast agents in non-human primates. While the non-invasive CBV MRI methodology is often used to enhance fMRI sensitivity in NHPs, its application for baseline CBV measurement is rare due to the complexities of susceptibility contrast mechanisms. The authors determined the number of large vessels and the areal and laminar variations of CBV in NHP, and compared those with various other metrics.

      Strengths:

      Noninvasive mapping of relative cerebral blood volume is novel for non-human primates. A key finding was the observation of variations in CBV across regions; primary sensory cortices had high CBV, whereas other higher areas had low CBV. The measured CBV values correlated with previously reported neuronal and receptor densities.

      We appreciate your recognition of the novelty of our non-invasive relative cerebral blood volume (CBV) mapping in non-human primates, as well as the observed areal variations and their correlations with neuronal and receptor densities. However, we are concerned that key contributions of our work—such as cortical layer-specific vasculature mapping and benchmarking surface vessel density estimations against anatomical ground truth—are being framed as limitations rather than significant advances in the field pushing the boundaries of current neuroimaging capabilities and providing a valuable foundation for future research. Additionally, we would like to clarify that dynamic susceptibility contrast (DSC) MRI using gadolinium is the gold standard for CBV measurement in clinical settings and the argument that “baseline CBV measurements are rare due to the complexities of susceptibility contrast” is simply not true. The limited use of ferumoxytol for CBV imaging is primarily due to previous FDA regulatory restrictions, rather than inherent methodological shortcomings.

      Changes in text:

      Compared to clinically used gadolinium-based agents, ferumoxytol's substantially longer half-life and stronger R<sub>2</sub>* effect allows for higher-resolution and more sensitive vascular volume measurements (Buch et al., 2022), albeit these methodologies are hampered by confounding factors such as vessel orientation relative to the magnetic field (B<sub>0</sub>) direction (Ogawa et al., 1993).

      Weaknesses:

      A weakness of this manuscript is that the quantification of CBV with postprocessing approaches to remove susceptibility effects from pial and penetrating vessels is not fully validated, especially on a laminar scale. Further specific comments follow.

      (1) Baseline CBV indices were determined using contrast agent-enhanced MRI (deltaR<sub>2</sub>*). Although this approach is suitable for areal comparisons, its application at a laminar scale poses challenges due to significant contributions from large vessels including pial vessels. The primary concern is whether large-vessel contributions can be removed from the measured deltaR<sub>2</sub>* through processing techniques.

      Eliminating the contribution of large vessels completely is unlikely, and we agree with the reviewer that ΔR<sub>2</sub>* results likely reflect a weighted combination of signals from both large vessels and capillaries. However, the distribution of ΔR<sub>2</sub>* more closely aligns with capillary density in areas V1–V5 than with large vessel distributions (Weber et al., 2008), suggesting that our ΔR<sub>2</sub>* results are more weighted toward capillaries. Moreover, we demonstrated that the pial vessel induced signal-intensity drop-outs are clearly limited to the superficial layers and exhibit smaller spatial extent than generally thought (Supp. Figs. 2 and 4).

      (2) High-resolution MRI with a critical sampling frequency estimated from previous studies (Weber 2008, Zheng 1991) was performed to separate penetrating vessels. However, this approach is still insufficient to accurately identify the number of vessels due to the blooming effects of susceptibility and insufficient spatial resolution. The reported number of penetrating vessels is only applicable to the experimental and processing conditions used in this study, which cannot be generalized.

      Our intention was not to suggest that our measurements provide a general estimate of vessel density across the macaque cerebral cortex. At 0.23 mm isotropic resolution, we successfully delineated approximately 30% of the penetrating vessels in V1. Our primary objective was to demonstrate a proof-of-concept quantifiable measurement rather than to establish a generalized vessel density metric for all brain regions. We have consistently emphasized this throughout the manuscript, but if there is a specific point of misunderstanding, we would be happy to consider revisions for clarity.

      (3) Baseline R<sub>2</sub>* is sensitive to baseline R<sub>2</sub>, vascular volume, iron content, and susceptibility gradients. Additionally, it is sensitive to imaging parameters; higher spatial resolution tends to result in lower R<sub>2</sub>* values (closer to the R<sub>2</sub> value). Thus, it is difficult to correlate baseline R<sub>2</sub>* with physiological parameters.

      The observed correlation between R<sub>2</sub>* and neuron density is likely indirect, as R<sub>2</sub>* is strongly influenced by iron, myelin, and deoxyhemoglobin densities. However, the robust correlation between R<sub>2</sub>* and neuron density, peaking in the superficial layers (R = 0.86, p < 10<sup>-10</sup>), is striking and difficult to ignore (revised Supp. Fig. 6D-E). Upon revision, we identified an error in Supp. Fig. 6D-E, where the previous version used single-subject R<sub>2</sub>* and ΔR<sub>2</sub>* maps instead of the group-averaged maps. The revised correlations are slightly stronger than in the earlier version.

      Given that the correlation between neuron density and R<sub>2</sub>* is strongest in the superficial layers, we suggest this relationship reflects an underlying association with tissue cytochrome oxidase (CO) activity and cumulative effect of deoxygenated venous blood drainage toward the pial network. The superficial cortical layers are also less influenced by myelin and iron densities, which are more concentrated in the deeper cortical layers. Additional factors may contribute to this relationship, including the iron dependence of mitochondrial CO activity, as iron is an essential component of CO’s heme groups. Moreover, myelin maintenance depends on iron, which is predominantly stored in oligodendrocytes. The presence of myelinated thin axons and a higher axonal surface density may, in turn, be a prerequisite for high neuron density.

      In this context, it is also valuable to note the absolute range of superficial R<sub>2</sub>* values (≈ 6 s<sup>-1</sup>; Supp. Fig. 6D). This variation in cortical surface R<sub>2</sub>* is about 12-30 times larger compared to the signal changes observed during task-based fMRI (6 vs. 0.2-0.5 s<sup>-1</sup>). This relation seems reasonable because regional increases in absolute blood flow associated with imaging signals, as measured by PET, typically do not exceed 5%–10% of the brain's resting blood flow (Raichle and Mintum 2016; Brain work and brain imaging). The venous oxygenation level is typically 60%, with task-induced activation increasing it by only a few percent. We suggest that this is ~40% oxygen extraction is reflected in the superficial R<sub>2</sub>*. Finally, the large intercept (≈ 14.5 1/s; Supp. Fig. 6D), which is not equivalent to the water R<sub>2</sub>* (≈ 1 1/s), suggests that R<sub>2</sub>* is influenced by substantial non-neuron density factors, such as receptor, myelin, iron, susceptibility gradients and spatial resolution.

      The R<sub>2</sub>* values are well known to be influenced by intra-voxel phase coherence and thus spatial resolution. However, our view is that the proposed methodology of acquiring cortical-layer thickness adjusted high-resolution (spin-echo) R<sub>2</sub> maps poses more methodological limitations and is less practical. Notwithstanding, to further corroborate the relationship between R<sub>2</sub>* and neuron density, we investigated whether a similar correlation exists in non-quantitative T2w SPACE-FLAIR images (0.32 mm isotropic) signal-intensity and neuron density. Using B<sub>1</sub> bias-field and B<sub>0</sub> orientation bias corrected T2w SPACE-FLAIR images (N=7), we parcellated the equivolumetric surface maps using Vanderbilt sections. Our findings showed that signal intensity—where regions with high signal intensity correspond to low R<sub>2</sub> values, and areas with low signal intensity correspond to high R<sub>2</sub> values—was positively correlated with neuron density, particularly in the superficial layers (R = 0.77, p = 10<sup>-11</sup>; Author response image 1).This analysis confirmed the correlation with neuron density and R<sub>2</sub> peaks at superficial layers. However, this correlation was slightly weaker compared to quantitative R<sub>2</sub>* (Supp. Fig. 6D), suggesting the variable flip-angle spin-echo train refocused signal-phase coherence loss from large draining vessels or that non-quantitative T2w-FLAIR images may be confounded by other factors such as B<sub>1</sub> transmission field biases (Glasser et al., 2022). Notwithstanding, this non-quantitative fast spin-echo with variable flip-angles approach, which is in principle less dependent on image resolution and closer to R<sub>2,intrinsic</sub> than R<sub>2</sub>*, yields similar findings in comparison to quantitative gradient-echo.

      Author response image 1.

      (A) T2w-FLAIR SPACE normalized signal-intensity plotted vs neuron density. Note that low signal-intensity corresponds to high R<sub>2</sub> and high neuron density, consistent with findings using ME-GRE. (B) Correlation between T2w-FLAIR SPACE and neuron density across equivolumetric layers. Notably, a similar relationship with neuron density was observed using a variable spin-echo pulse sequence as with quantitative gradient-echo-based imaging.

      Changes in text:

      Results:

      “Because the Julich cortical area atlas covers only a section of the cerebral cortex, and the neuron density estimates are interpolated maps, we extended our analysis using the original Collins sample borders encompassing the entire cerebral cortex (Supp. Fig. 6A-C). This analysis reaffirmed the positive correlation with ΔR<sub>2</sub>* (peak at EL2, R = 0.80, p < 10<sup>-11</sup>) and baseline R<sub>2</sub>* (peak at EL2a, R = 0.86, p < 10<sup>-13</sup>), yielding linear coefficients of ΔR<sub>2</sub>* = 102 × 10<sup>3</sup> neurons/s and R<sub>2</sub>* = 41 × 10<sup>3</sup> neurons/s (Supp. Fig. 6D-G). This suggests that the sensitivity of quantitative layer R<sub>2</sub>* MRI in detecting neuronal loss is relatively weak, and the introduction of the Ferumoxytol contrast agent has the potential to enhance this sensitivity by a factor of 2.5.”

      A new paragraph was added into discussion section 4.3 corroborating the relation between R<sub>2</sub>* and neuron density:

      “Another key finding of this study was the strong correlation between baseline R<sub>2</sub>* and neuron density (Supp. Fig. 6D, E). While R<sub>2</sub>* is well known to be influenced by iron, myelin, and deoxyhemoglobin densities, this correlation peaks in the superficial layers (Supp. Fig. 6E), suggesting a link to CO activity and the accumulation of deoxygenated venous blood draining from all cortical layers toward the pial network. Notably, the absolute range of superficial R<sub>2</sub>* values (max - min ≈ 6 s<sup>-1</sup>; Supp. Fig. 6D) is approximately 12-30 times larger than the ΔR<sub>2</sub>* observed during task-based BOLD fMRI at 3T (0.2-0.5 1/s) (Yablonskiy and Haacke 1994). Since venous oxygenation is around 60% and task-induced changes in blood flow account for only 5%–10% of the brain's resting blood flow (Raichle & Mintun, 2006), these results suggest that superficial R<sub>2</sub>* (Fig. 1D) may serve as a more accurate proxy for total deoxyhemoglobin content (and thus total oxygen consumption), which scales with the neuron density of the underlying cortical gray matter. Importantly, superficial layers may also provide a more specific measure of deoxyhemoglobin, as they are less influenced by myelin and iron, which are more concentrated in deeper cortical layers. Additionally, smaller but direct contributors, such as mitochondrial CO density—an iron-dependent factor—may also play a role in this relationship.”

      References:

      Raichle, M.E., Mintun, M.A., 2006. BRAIN WORK AND BRAIN IMAGING. Annu. Rev. Neurosci. 29, 449–476. https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev.neuro.29.051605.112819

      (4) CBV-weighted deltaR<sub>2</sub>* is correlated with various other metrics (cytoarchitectural parcellation, myelin/receptor density, cortical thickness, CO, cell-type specificity, etc.). While testing the correlation between deltaR<sub>2</sub>* and these other metrics may be acceptable as an exploratory analysis, it is challenging for readers to discern a causal relationship between them. A critical question is whether CBV-weighted deltaR<sub>2</sub>* can provide insights into other metrics in diseased or abnormal brain states.

      We acknowledge that having multivariate analysis using dense histological maps would be valuable to establish causality among these several metrics:

      “To comprehensively understand the factors contributing to the vascular organization of the brain, experimental disentanglement through multivariate analysis of laminar cell types and receptor densities is needed (Hayashi et al., 2021, Froudist-Walsh et al., 2023). Moreover, employing more advanced statistical modeling, including considerations for synapse-neuron interactions, may be important for refined evaluations.”

      We think the primary contributors to the brain's energy budget are neurons and receptors, as shown in several references and stated in the manuscript. To investigate relationship between neuron density and CBV, we estimated the energy budget allocated to neurons and extrapolated the remaining CBV to other contributing factors:

      Changes in text:

      “However, this is a simplified estimation, and a more comprehensive assessment would need to account for an aggregate of biophysical factors such as neuron types, neuron membrane surface area, firing rates, dendritic and synaptic densities (Fig. 6F-G), neurotransmitter recycling, and other cell types (Kageyama 1982; Elston and Rose 1997; Perge et al., 2009; Harris et al., 2012). Indeed, the majority of the mitochondria reside in the dendrites and synaptic transmission is widely acknowledged to drive the majority of the energy consumption and blood flow (Wong-Riley, 1989; Attwell et al., 2001).

      Extrapolating cortical ΔR<sub>2</sub>* to zero neuron density results in a large intercept (~35 1/s), corresponding to 60% of the maximum cortical CBV (57 1/s; Supp. Fig. 6F). This supports the view that the majority of energy consumption occurs in the neuropil—comprising dendrites, synapses, and axons—which accounts for ~80–90% of cortical gray matter volume, whereas neuronal somata constitute only ~10–20% (Wong-Riley, 1989). Although neuronal cell bodies exhibit higher CO activity per unit volume due to their dense mitochondrial content, these results suggest their overall contribution to the total CBV per mm<sup>3</sup> tissue remains lower than that of the neuropil, given the latter's substantially larger volume fraction in cortical tissue.

      Contrary to our initial expectations, we observed a relatively smaller CBV in regions and layers with high receptor density (Fig. 6B, D, F). This relationship extends to other factors, such as number of spines (putative excitatory inputs) and dendrite tree size across the entire cerebral cortex (Supp. Fig. 7) (Froudist-Walsh et al., 2023, Elston 2007). These results align with the work of Weber and colleagues, who reported a similar negative correlation between vascular length density and synaptic density, as well as a positive correlation with neuron density in macaque V1 across cortical layers (Weber et al., 2008).”

      Variations in neurons and receptors are reflected in cytoarchitecture, myelin (axon density likely scales with neuron density and myelin inhibits synaptic connections), and cell-type composition. For example, fast-spiking parvalbumin interneurons, which target the soma or axon hillock, are well-suited for regulating activity in regions with high neuron density, whereas bursting calretinin interneurons, which target distal dendrites, are more adapted to areas with high synaptic density. These factors in turn, gradually change along the cortical hierarchy level (higher levels have thinner cortical layer IV, more complex dendrite trees and more numerous inter-areal connectivity patterns). In our view, these factors are tightly interlinked and explain the strong correlations and metabolic demands observed across different metrics.

      We also agree that cortical layer imaging of vasculature in diseased or abnormal brain states is an intriguing direction for future research; however, it falls beyond the scope of the present study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript presents a new approach for non-invasive, MRI-based, measurements of cerebral blood volume (CBV). Here, the authors use ferumoxytol, a high-contrast agent and apply specific sequences to infer CBV. The authors then move to statistically compare measured regional CBV with known distribution of different types of neurons, markers of metabolic load and others. While the presented methodology captures and estimated 30% of the vasculature, the authors corroborated previous findings regarding lack of vascular compartmentalization around functional neuronal units in the primary visual cortex.

      Strengths:

      Non invasive methodology geared to map vascular properties in vivo.

      Implementation of a highly sensitive approach for measuring blood volume.

      Ability to map vascular structural and functional vascular metrics to other types of published data.

      Weaknesses:

      The key issue here is the underlying assumption about the appropriate spatial sampling frequency needed to captures the architecture of the brain vasculature. Namely, ~7 penetrating vessels / mm2 as derived from Weber et al 2008 (Cer Cor). The cited work, begins by characterizing the spacing of penetrating arteries and ascending veins using vascular cast of 7 monkeys (Macaca mulatta, same as in the current paper). The ~7 penetrating vessels / mm2 is computed by dividing the total number of identified vessels by the area imaged. The problem here is that all measurements were made in a "non-volumetric" manner and only in V1. Extrapolating from here to the entire brain seems like an over-assumption, particularly given the region-dependent heterogeneity that the current paper reports.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concerns regarding spatial sampling frequency and its implications for characterizing brain vasculature, which we investigated in this study. To clarify, our analysis of surface vessel density was explicitly restricted to V1 precisely due to the limitations of our experimental precision. While we reported the total number of vessels identified in the cortex, we intentionally chose not to present density values across regions in this manuscript. Although these calculations are feasible, we focused on the data directly analyzed and avoided extrapolating density values beyond the scope of our findings. Thus, we are uncertain about the suggestion that we extrapolated vessel density values across the entire brain, as we have taken care to limit our conclusions of our vessel density precision to V1.

      Regarding methodology, we conducted two independent analyses of vessel density specifically in V1. The first involved volumetric analysis using the Frangi filter, while the second used surface-based analysis of local signal-intensity gradients (as illustrated in Fig. 2E and Supp. Figs. 3 and 4), albeit the final surface density analysis is performed using the ultra-high resolution equivolumetric layers. Notably, these two approaches produced consistent and comparable vessel density estimates, supporting the reliability of our findings within the scope of V1 (we found 30% of the vessels relative to the ground-truth).

      Comments on revisions:

      I appreciate the effort made to improve the manuscript. That said, the direct validation of the underlying assumption about spatial resolution sampling remains unaddressed in the final version of this manuscript. With the only intention to further strengthen the methodology presented here, I would encourage again the authors to seek a direct validation of this assumption for other brain areas.

      In their reply, the authors stated "... line scanning or single-plane sequences, at least on first impression, seem inadequate for whole-brain coverage and cortical surface mapping. ". This seems to emanate for a misunderstanding as the method could be used to validate the mapping, not to map per-se.

      We apologize for any misunderstanding in our previous response and appreciate your clarification. We now understand that you were suggesting the use of line-scanning or single-plane sequences as a method to validate, rather than map, our spatial sampling assumptions.

      We agree that single-plane sequences at very high in-plane resolution (e.g., 50 × 50 × 1000 µm) have great potential to detect penetrating vessels and even vessel branching patterns. These techniques could indeed provide valuable insights into region-specific vessel density variations which could then be used to validate whole brain 3D acquisitions. However, as noted above, we have refrained from reporting vessel densities outside V1 precisely due to sampling limitations (we only found 30% of the penetrating vessels in V1, or only 2 mm<sup>2</sup>/30mm<sup>2</sup> ≈ 7% of branching vessel ground-truth, see discussion).

      We acknowledge the merit of incorporating such methods to validate regional vessel densities and agree that this would be an important avenue for future research. Thank you for suggesting this point, we have briefly mentioned the advantage of single-plane EPI at discussion.

      Changes in text:

      “4.1 Methodological considerations - vessel density informed MRI

      …anatomical studies accounting for branching patterns have reported much higher vessel densities up to 30 vessels/mm<sup>2</sup> (Keller et al., 2011; Adams et al., 2015). Further investigations are warranted, taking into account critical sampling frequencies associated with vessel branching patterns (Duverney 1981), and achieving higher SNR through ultra-high B<sub>0</sub> MRI (Bolan et al., 2006; Harel et al., 2010; Kim et al., 2013) and utilize high-resolution single-plane sequences and prospective motion correction schemes to accurately characterize regional vessel densities. Such advancements hold promise for improving vessel quantification, classifications for veins and arteries and constructing detailed cortical surface maps of the vascular networks which may have diagnostic and neurosurgical utilities (Fig. 2A, B) (Iadecola, 2013; Qi and Roper, 2021; Sweeney et al., 2018).”

      During the revision we found a typo and corrected it in Supp. Fig. 8: Dosal -> Dorsal.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We would like to thank the reviewers for their insightful comments and recommendations. We have extensively revised the manuscript in response to the valuable feedback. We believe the results is a more rigorous and thoughtful analysis of the data. Furthermore, our interpretation and discussion of the findings is more focused and highlights the importance of the circuit and its role in the response to stress. Thank you for helping to improve the presented science.

      Key changes made in response to the reviewers comments include:

      • Revision of statistical analyses for nearly all figures, with the addition of a new table of summary statistics to include F and/or t values alongside p-values.

      • Addition of statistical analyses for all fiber photometry data.

      • Examination of data for possible sex dependent effects.

      • Clarification of breeding strategies and genotype differences, with added details to methods to improve clarity.

      • Addressing concerns about the specificity of virus injections and the spread, with additional details added to methods.

      • Modification of terminology related to goal-directed behavior based on reviewer feedback, including removal of the term from the manuscript.

      • Clarification and additional data on the use of photostimulation and its effects, including efforts to inactivate neurons for further insight, despite technical challenges.

      • Correction of grammatical errors throughout the manuscript.

      Reviewer 1:

      Despite the manuscript being generally well-written and easy to follow, there are several grammatical errors throughout that need to be addressed.

      Thank you for highlighting this issue. Grammatical errors have been fixed in the revised version of the manuscript.

      Only p values are given in the text to support statistical differences. This is not sufficient. F and/or t values should be given as well.

      In response to this critique and similar comments from Reviewer 2, we re-evaluated our approach to statistical analyses and extensively revised analyses for nearly all figures. We also added a new table of summary statistics (Supplemental Table 1) containing the type of analysis, statistic, comparison, multiple comparisons, and p value(s). For Figures 4C-E, 5C, 6C-E, 7H-I, and 8H we analyzed these data using two-way repeated measures (RM) ANOVA that examined the main effect of time (either number of sessions or stimulation period) in the same animal and compared that to the main effect of genotype of the animal (Cre+ vs Cre-), and if there was an interaction. For Supplemental Figure 7A we also conducted a two-way RM ANOVA with time as a factor and activity state (number of port activations in active vs inactive nose port) as the other in Cre+ mice. For Figures 5D-E we conducted a two-way mixed model ANOVA that accounted and corrected for missing data. In figures that only compared two groups of data (Figures 5F-L, 6F, 8C-D, 8I, and Supp 6F-G) we used two-tailed t-test for the analysis. If our question and/or hypothesis required us to conduct multiple comparisons between or within treatments, we conducted Bonferroni’s multiple comparisons test for post hoc analysis (we note which groups we compared in Supplemental Table 1). For figures that did or did not show a change in calcium activity (Figure 3G, 3I-K, 7B, 7D-E, 8E-F), we compared waveform confidence intervals (Jean-Richard-Dit-Bressel, Clifford, McNally, 2020). The time windows we used as comparison are noted in Supplemental Table 1, and if the comparisons were significant at 95%, 99%, and 99.9% thresholds.

      None of prior comparisons in prior analyses that were significant were found to have fallen below thresh holds for significance. Of those found to be not significantly different, only one change was noted. In Figure 6E there was now a significant baseline difference between Cre+ and Cre- mice with Cre- mice taking longer to first engage the port compared to Cre+ mice (p=0.045). Although the more rigorous approach the statistical analyses did not change our interpretations we feel the enhanced the paper and thank the reviewer for pushing this improvement.

      Moreover, the fibre photometry data does not appear to have any statistical analyses reported - only confidence intervals represented in the figures without any mention of whether the null hypothesis that the elevations in activity observed are different from the baseline.

      This is particularly important where there is ambiguity, such as in Figure 3K, where the spontaneous activity of the animal appears to correlate with a spike in activity but the text mentions that there is no such difference. Without statistics, this is difficult to judge.

      Thank you for highlighting this critical point and providing an opportunity to strengthen our manuscript. We added statistical analyses of all fiber photometry data using a recently described approach based on waveform confidence intervals (Jean-Richard-Dit-Bressel, Clifford, McNally, 2020). In the statistical summary (Supplemental Table 1) we note the time window that we used for comparison in each analysis and if the comparisons were significant at 95%, 99%, and 99.9% thresholds. Thank you from highlighting this and helping make the manuscript stronger.

      With respect to Figure 3K, we are not certain we understood the spike in activity the reviewer referred to. Figure 3J and K include both velocity data (gold) and Ca2+ dependent signal (blue). We used episodes of velocity that were comparable to the avoidance respond during the ambush test and no significant differences in the Ca2+ signal when gating around changes in velocity in the absence of stressor (Supplemental Table1). This is in contrast to the significant change in Ca2+ signal following a mock predator ambush (Figure 3J). We interpret these data together to indicate that locomotion does not correlate with an increase in calcium activity in SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons, but that coping to a stressor does. This conclusion is further examined in supplemental Figure 5, including examining cross-correlation to test for temporally offset relationship between velocity and Ca2+ signal in SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons.

      The use of photostimulation only is unfortunate, it would have been really nice to see some inactivation of these neurons as well. This is because of the well-documented issues with being able to determine whether photostimulation is occurring in a physiological manner, and therefore makes certain data difficult to interpret. For instance, with regards to the 'active coping' behaviours - is this really the correct characterisation of what's going on? I wonder if the mice simply had developed immobile responding as a coping strategy but when they experience stimulation of these neurons that they find aversive, immobility is not sufficient to deal with the summative effects of the aversion from the swimming task as well as from the neuronal activation? An inactivation study would be more convincing.

      We agree with the point of the reviewer, experiments demonstrating necessity of SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons would have added to the story here. We carried out multiple experiments aimed at addressing questions about necessity of SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons in stress coping behaviors, specifically the forced swim assay. Efforts included employing chemogenetic, optogenetic, and tetanus toxin-based methods. We observed no effects on locomotor activity or stress coping. These experiments are both technically difficult and challenging to interpret. Interpretation of negative results, as we obtained, is particularly difficult because of potential technical confounds. Selective targeting of SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons for inhibition requires a process requiring three viral injections and two recombination steps, increasing variability and reducing the number of neurons impacted. Alternatively, photoinhibition targeting SuMVGLUT2+::POA cells can be done using Retro-AAV injected into POA and a fiber implant over SuM. We tried both approaches. Data obtained were difficult to interpret because of questions about adequate coverage of SuMVGLUT2+::POA population by virally expressed constructs and/or light spread arose. The challenge of adequate coverage to effectively prevent output from the targeted population is further confounded by challenges inherent in neural inhibition, specifically determining if the inhibition created at the cellular level is adequate to block output in the context of excitatory inputs or if neurons must be first engaged in a particular manner for inhibition to be effective. Baseline neural activity, release probability, and post-synaptic effects could all be relevant, which photo-inhibition will potentially not resolve. So, while the trend is to always show “necessary and sufficient” effects, we’ve tried nearly everything, and we simply cannot conclude much from our mixed results. There are also wellestablished problems with existing photo-inhibition methods, which while people use them and tout them, are often ignored. We have a lot of expertise in photo-inhibition optogenetics, and indeed have used it with some success, developed new methods, yet in this particular case we are unable to draw conclusions related to inhibition. People have experienced similar challenges in locus coeruleus neurons, which have very low basal activity, and inhibition with chemogenetics is very hard, as well as with optogenetic pump-based approaches, because the neurons fire robust rebound APs. We have spent almost 2.5 years trying to get this to work in this circuit because reviews have been insistent on this result for the paper to be conclusive. Unfortunately, it simply isn’t possible in our view until we know more about the cell types involved. This is all in spite of experience using the approach in many other publications.

      We also employed less selective approaches, such as injecting AAV-DIO-tetanus toxin light chain (Tettox) constructs directly into SuM VGLUT2-Cre mice but found off target effects impacting animal wellbeing and impeding behavioral testing due viral spread to surrounding areas.

      While we are disappointed for being unable to directly address questions about necessity of SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons in active coping with experimental data, we were unable to obtain results allowing for clear interpretation across numerous other domains the reviewers requested. We also feel strongly that until we have a clear picture of the molecular cell type architecture in the SuM, and Cre-drivers to target subsets of neurons, this question will be difficult to resolve for any group. We are working now on RNAseq and related spatial transcriptomics efforts in the SuM and examining additional behavioral paradigm to resolve these issues, so stay tuned for future publications.

      Accordingly, we avoid making statements relating to necessity in the manuscript. In spite of having several lines of physiological data with strong robust correlations behavior related to the SuMVGLUT2+::POA circuit.

      Nose poke is only nominally instrumental as it cannot be shown to have a unique relationship with the outcome that is independent of the stimuli-outcome relationships (in the same way that a lever press can, for example). Moreover, there is nothing here to show that the behaviours are goal-directed.

      Thank you for highlighting this point. Regarding goal-direct terminology, we removed this terminology from the manuscript. Since the mice perform highly selective (active vs inactive) port activation robustly across multiple days of training the behavior likely transitions to habitual behavior. We only tested the valuation of stimuli termination of the final day of training with time limited progressive ratio test. With respect to lever press versus active port activation, we are unclear how using a lever in this context would offer a different interpretation. Lever pressing may be more sensitive to changes in valuation when compared to nose poke port activation (Atalayer and Rowland 2008); however, in this study the focus of the operant behavior is separating innate behaviors for learned action–outcome instrumental learned behaviors for threat response (LeDoux and Daw 2018). The robust highly selective activation of the active port illustrated in Figure 6 fits as an action–outcome instrumental behavior wherein mice learn to engage the active but not inactive port to terminate photostimulation. The first activation of the port occurs through exploration of the arena but as demonstrated by the number of active port activations and the decline in time of the first active port engagement, mice expressing ChR2eYFP learn to engage the port to terminate the stimulation. To aid in illustrating this point we have added Supplemental Figure 7 showing active and inactive port activations for both Cre+ and Cre- mice. This adds clarity to high rate of selective port activation driven my stimulation of SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons compared to controls. The elimination of goal directed and providing additional data narrows and supports one of the key points of the operant experiment.

      With regards to Figure 1: This is a nice figure, but I wonder if some quantification of the pathways and their density might be helpful, perhaps by measuring the intensity of fluorescence in image J (as these are processes, not cell bodies that can be counted)? Mind you, they all look pretty dense so perhaps this is not necessary! However, because the authors are looking at projections in so-called 'stress-engaged regions', the amygdala seems conspicuous by its absence. Did the authors look in the amygdala and find no projections? If so it seems that this would be worth noting.

      This is an interesting question but has proven to be a very technically challenging question. We consulted with several leaders who routinely use complimentary viral tracing methods in the field. We were unable to devise a method to provide a satisfactorily meaningful quantitative (as opposed to qualitative) approach to compare SUMVGLUT2+::POA to SuMVGLUT2+ projections. A few limitations are present that hinder a meaningful quantitative approach. One limitation was the need for different viral strategies to label the two populations. Labeling SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons requires using VGLUT2-Flp mice with two injections into the POA and one into SuM. Two recombinase steps were required, reducing efficiency of overlap. This combination of viral injections, particularly the injections of RetroAAVs in the POA, can induce significant quantitative variability due to tropism, efficacy, and variability of retro-viral methods, and viral infection generally. These issues are often totally ignored in similar studies across the “neural circuit” landscape, but it doesn’t make them less relevant here.

      Although people do this in the field, and show quantification, we actually believe that it can be a quite misleading read-out of functionally relevant circuitry, given that neurotransmitter release ultimately is amplified by receptors post-synaptically, and many examples of robust behavioral effects have been observed with low fiber tracing complimentary methods (McCall, Siuda et al. 2017). In contrast, the broader SuMVGLUT2+ population was labeled using a single injection into the SuM. This means there like more efficient expression of the fluorophore. Additionally, in areas that contain terminals and passing fibers understanding and interpreting fluorescent signal is challenging. Together, these factors limit a meaningful quantitative comparison and make an interpretation difficult to make. In this context, we focused on a conservative qualitative presentation to demonstrate two central points. That 1) SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons are subset of SuMVGLUT2+ neurons that project to specific areas and that exclude dentate gyrus, and they 2) arborize extensively to multiple areas which have be linked to threat responses. We agree that there is much to be learned about how different populations in SuM connect to targets in different regions of the brain and to continue to examine this question with different techniques. A meaningful quantitative study comparing projections is technically complex and, we feel, beyond our ability for this study.

      Also, for the reasons above we do not believe that quantification provides exceptional clarity with respect to the putative function of the circuit, glutamate released, or other cotransmitters given known amplification at the post-synaptic side of the circuit.

      With regard to the amygdala, other studies on SuM projections have found efferent projections to amygdala (Ottersen, 1980; Vertes, 1992). In our study we were unable to definitively determine projections from SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons to amygdala, which if present are not particularly dense. For this reason we were conservative and do not comment on this particular structure.

      I would suggest removing the term goal-directed from the manuscript and just focusing on the active vs. passive distinction.

      We removed the use of goal-directed. Thank you for helping us clarify our terminology.

      The effect observed in Figure 7I is interesting, and I'm wondering if a rebound effect is the most likely explanation for this. Did the authors inhibit the VGAT neurons in this region at any other times and observe a similar rebound? If such a rebound was not observed it would suggest that it is something specific about this task that is producing the behaviour. I would like it if the authors could comment on this.

      We agree that results showing the change in coping strategy (passive to active) in forced swim after but not during stimulation of SuMVGAT+ neurons is quite interesting (Figure 7I). This experiment activated SuMVGAT+ neurons during a section of the forced swim assay and mice showed a robust shift to mobility after the stimulation of SuMVGAT+ neurons stopped. We did not carry out inhibition of SuMVGAT+ neurons in this manuscript. As the reviewer suggested, strong inhibition of local SuM neurons, including SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons, could lead to rebound activity that may shift coping behaviors in confusing ways. We agree this is an interesting idea but do not have data to support the hypothesis further at this time.

      Reviewer 2

      (1) These are very difficult, small brain regions to hit, and it is commendable to take on the circuit under investigation here. However, there is no evidence throughout the manuscript that the authors are reliably hitting the targets and the spread is comparable across experiments, groups, etc., decreasing the significance of the current findings. There are no hit/virus spread maps presented for any data, and the representative images are cropped to avoid showing the brain regions lateral and dorsal to the target regions. In images where you can see the adjacent regions, there appears expression of cell bodies (such as Supp 6B), suggesting a lack of SuM specificity to the injections.

      We agree with the reviewer that the areas studied are small and technically challenging to hit. This was one of driving motivations for using multiple tools in tandem to restrict the area targeted for stimulation. Approaches included using a retrograde AAVs to express ChR2eFYP in SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons; thereby, restricting expression to VGLUT2+ neurons that project to the POA. Targeting was further limited by placement of the optic fiber over cell bodies on SuM. Thus, only neurons that are VGLUT2+, project to the POA, and were close enough to the fiber were active by photostimulation. Regrettably, we were not able to compile images from mice where the fiber was misplaced leading to loss of behavioral effects. We would have liked to provide that here to address this comment. Unfortunately, generating heat maps for injections is not possible for anatomic studies that use unlabeled recombinase as part of an intersectional approach. Also determining the point of injection of a retroAAV can be difficult to accurately determine its location because neurons remote to injection site and their processes are labeled.

      Experiments described in Supplemental Figure 6B on VGAT neurons in SuM were designed and interpreted to support the point that SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons are a distinct population that does not overlap with GABAergic neurons. For this point it is important that we targeted SuM, but highly confined targeting is not needed to support the central interpretation of the data. We do see labeling in SuM in VGAT-Cre mice but photo stimulation of SuMVGAT+ neurons does not generate the behavioral changes seen with activation of SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons. As the reviewer points out, SuM is small target and viral injection is likely to spread beyond the anatomic boundaries to other VGAT+ neurons in the region, which are not the focus here. The activation would be restricted by the spread of light from the fiber over SuM (estimated to be about a 200um sphere in all directions). We did not further examine projections or localization of VGAT+ neurons in this study but focused on the differential behavioral effects of SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons.

      (2) In addition, the whole brain tracing is very valuable, but there is very little quantification of the tracing. As the tracing is the first several figures and supp figure and the basis for the interpretation of the behavior results, it is important to understand things including how robust the POA projection is compared to the collateral regions, etc. Just a rep image for each of the first two figures is insufficient, especially given the above issue raised. The combination of validation of the restricted expression of viruses, rep images, and quantified tracing would add rigor that made the behavioral effects have more significance.

      For example, in Fig 2, how can one be sure that the nature of the difference between the nonspecific anterograde glutamate neuron tracing and the Sum-POA glutamate neuron tracing is real when there is no quantification or validation of the hits and expression, nor any quantification showing the effects replicate across mice? It could be due to many factors, such as the spread up the tract of the injection in the nonspecific experiment resulting in the labeling of additional regions, etc.

      Relatedly, in Supp 4, why isn’t C normalized to DAPI, which they show, or area? Similar for G what is the mcherry coverage/expression, and why isn’t Fos normalized to that?

      Thank you for highlighting the importance of anatomy and the value of anatomy. Two points based on the anatomic studies are central to our interpretation of the experimental data. First, SUMVGLUT2+::POA are a distinct population within the SuM. We show this by demonstrating they are not GABAergic and that they do not project to dentate gyrus. Projections from SuM to dentate gyrus have been described in multiple studies (Boulland et al., 2009; Haglund et al., 1987; Hashimotodani et al., 2018; Vertes, 1992) and we demonstrate them here for SuMVGLUT2+ cells. Using an intersectional approach in VGLUT2-Flp mice we show SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons do not project to dentate gyrus. We show cell bodies of SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons located in SuM across multiple figures including clear brain images. Thus, SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons are SuM neurons that do not project to dentate gyrus, are not GABAergic, send projections to a distinct subset of targets, most notably excluding dentate gyrus. Second, SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons arborize sending projections to multiple regions. We show this using a combinatorial genetic and viral approach to restrict expression of eYFP to only neurons that are in SuM (based on viral injection), project to the POA (based on retrograde AAV injection in POA), and VGLUT2+ (VGLUT2-Flp mice). Thus, any eYFP labeled projection comes from SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons. We further confirmed projections using retroAAV injection into areas identified using anterograde approaches (Supplemental Figure 2). As discussed above in replies to Reviewer 1, we feel limitations are present that preclude meaningful quantitative analysis. We thus opted for a conservative interpretation as outlined.

      Prior studies have shown efferent projections from SuM to many areas, and projections to dentate gyrus have received substantial attention (Bouland et al., 2009; Haglund, Swanson, and Kohler, 1984; Hashimotodani et al., 2018; Soussi et al., 2010; Vertes, 1992; Pan and McNaugton, 2004). We saw many of the same projections from SuMVGLUT2+ neurons. We found no projections from SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons to dentate gyrus (Figure 2). Our description of SuM projection to dentate gyrus is not new but finding a population of neurons in SuM that does not project to dentate gyrus but does project to other regions in hippocampus is new. This finding cannot be explained by spread of the virus in the tract or non-selective labeling.

      (3) The authors state that they use male and female mice, but they do not describe the n’s for each experiment or address sex as a biological variable in the design here. As there are baseline sex differences in locomotion, stress responses, etc., these could easily factor into behavioral effects observed here.

      Sex specific effects are possible; however, the studies presented here were not designed or powered to directly examine them. A point about experimental design that helps mitigate against strong sex dependent effect is that often the paradigm we used examined baseline (pre-stimulation) behavior, how behavior changed during stimulation, and how behavior returned (or not) to baseline after stimulation. Thus, we test changes in individual behaviors. Although we had limited statistical power, we conducted analyses to examine the effects of sex as variable in the experiments and found no differences among males and females.

      (4) In a similar vein as the above, the authors appear to use mice of different genotypes (however the exact genotypes and breeding strategy are not described) for their circuit manipulation studies without first validating that baseline behavioral expression, habituation, stress responses are not different. Therefore, it is unclear how to interpret the behavioral effects of circuit manipulation. For example in 7H, what would the VGLUT2-Cre mouse with control virus look like over time? Time is a confound for these behaviors, as mice often habituate to the task, and this varies from genotype to genotype. In Fig 8H, it looks like there may be some baseline differences between genotypes- what is normal food consumption like in these mice compared to each other? Do Cre+ mice just locomote and/or eat less? This issue exists across the figures and is related to issues of statistics, potential genotype differences, and other experimental design issues as described, as well as the question about the possibility of a general locomotor difference (vs only stress-induced). In addition, the authors use a control virus for the control groups in VGAT-Cre manipulation studies but do not explain the reasoning for the difference in approach.

      Thank you for highlighting the need for greater clarity about the breeding strategies used and for these related questions. We address the breeding strategy and then move to address the additional concerns raised. We have added details to the methods section to address this point. For VGLUT2-Cre mice we use litter mates controls from Cre/WT x WT/WT cross. The VGLUT2-Cre line (RRID:IMSR_JAX:028863) (Vong L , et al. 2011) used here been used in many other reports. We are not aware of any reports indicating a phenotype associated with the addition of the IRES-Cre to the Slc17a6 loci and there is no expected impact of expression of VGLUT2. Also, we see in many of the experiments here that the baseline (Figures 4, 5, and 7) behaviors are not different between the Cre+ and Cre- mice. For VGAT-Cre mice we used a different breeding strategy that allowed us to achieve greater control of the composition of litters and more efficient cohorts cohort. A Cre/Cre x WT/WT cross yielded all Cre/WT litters. The AAV injected, ChR2eYFP or eYFP, allowed us to balance the cohort.

      Regarding Figure 7H, which shows time immobile on the second day of a swim test, data from the Cre- mice demonstrate the natural course of progression during the second day of the test. The control mice in the VGAT-Cre cohort (Figure 7I) have similar trend. The change in behavior during the stimulation period in the Cre+ mice is caused by the activation of SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons. The behavioral shift largely, but not completely, returns to baseline when the photostimulation stops. We have no reason to believe a VGLUT2-Cre+ mouse injected with control AAV to express eYFP would be different from WT littermate injected with AVV expressing ChR2eYFP in a Cre dependent manner.

      Turning to concerns related to 8H, which shows data from fasted mice quantify time spent interacting with food pellet immediately after presentation of a chow pellet, we found no significant difference between the control and Cre+ mice. We unaware of any evidence indicating that the two groups should have a different baseline since the Cre insertion is not expected to alter gene expression and we are unaware of reports of a phenotype relating to feeding and the presence of the transgene in this mouse line. Even if there were a small baseline shift this would not explain the large abrupt shift induced by the photostimulation. As noted above, we saw shifts in behavior abruptly induced by the initiation of photostimulation when compared to baseline in multiple experiments. This shift would not be explained by a hypothetical difference in the baseline behaviors of litter mates.

      (5) The statistics used throughout are inappropriate. The authors use serial Mann-Whitney U tests without a description of data distributions within and across groups. Further, they do not use any overall F tests even though most of the data are presented with more than two bars on the same graph. Stats should be employed according to how the data are presented together on a graph. For example, stats for pre-stim, stim, and post-stim behavior X between Cre+ and Cre- groups should employ something like a two-way repeated measures ANOVA, with post-hoc comparisons following up on those effects and interactions. There are many instances in which one group changes over time or there could be overall main effects of genotype. Not only is serially using Mann-Whitney tests within the same panel misleading and statistically inaccurate, but it cherry-picks the comparisons to be made to avoid more complex results. It is difficult to comprehend the effects of the manipulations presented without more careful consideration of the appropriate options for statistical analysis.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out and suggesting alterative analyses, we agree with the assessment on this topic. Therefore, we have extensively revised the statical approach to our data using the suggested approach. Reviewer 1 also made a similar comment, and we would like to point to our reply to reviewer 1’s second point in regard to what we changed and added to the new statistical analyses. Further, we have added a full table detailing the statical values for each figure to the paper.

      Conceptual:

      (6) What does the signal look like at the terminals in the POA? Any suggestion from the data that the projection to the POA is important?

      This is an interesting question that we will pursue in future investigations into the roles of the POA. We used the projection to the POA from SuM to identify a subpopulation in SuM and we were surprised to find the extensive arborization of these neurons to many areas associated with threat responses. We focused on the cell bodies as “hubs” with many “spokes”. Extensive studies are needed to understand the roles of individual projections and their targets. There is also the hypothetical technical challenge of manipulating one projection without activating retrograde propagation of action potentials to the soma. At the current time we have no specific insights into the roles of the isolated projection to POA. Interpretation of experiments activating only “spoke” of the hub would be challenging. Simple terminal stimulation experiments are challenged by the need to separate POA projections from activation of passing fibers targeting more anterior structures of the accumbens and septum.

      (7) Is this distinguishing active coping behavior without a locomotor phenotype? For example, Fig. 5I and other figure panels show a distance effect of stimulation (but see issues raised about the genotype of comparison groups). In addition, locomotor behavior is not included for many behaviors, so it is hard to completely buy the interpretation presented.

      We agree with the reviewer and thank them for highlighting this fundamental challenge in studies examining active coping behaviors in rodents, which requires movement. Additionally, actively responding to threatening stressors would include increased locomotor activity. Separation of movement alone from active coping can be challenging. Because of these concerns we undertook experiments using diverse behavioral paradigms to examine the elicited behaviors and the recruitment of SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons to stressors. We conducted experiments to directly examine behaviors evoked by photoactivation of SuMVGLUT2+::POA. In these experiments we observed a diversity of behaviors including increased locomotion and jumping but also treading/digging (Figure 4). These are behaviors elicited in mice by threatening and noxious stimuli. An Increase of running or only jumping could signify a specific locomotor effect, but this is not what was observed. Based on these behaviors, we expected to find evidence of increase movement in open field (Figure 5G-I) and light dark choice (Figure 5J-L) assays. For many of the assays, reporting distance traveled is not practical. An important set of experiments that argues against a generic increase in locomotion is the operant behavior experiments, which require the animal to engage in a learned behavior while receiving photostimulation of SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons (Figure 6). This is particularly true for testing using a progressive ratio when the time of ongoing photostimulation is longer, yet animals actively and selectively engage the active port (Figure 6G-H). Further, we saw a shift in behavioral strategy induce by photoactivation in forced swim test (Figure 7H). Thus, activation of SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons elicited a range of behaviors that included swimming, jumping, treading, and learned response, not just increased movement. Together these data strongly argue that SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons do not only promote increased locomotor behavior. We interpret these data together with the data from fiber photometry studies to show SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons are recruited during acute stressors, contribute to aversive affective component of stress, and promote active behaviors without constraining the behavioral pattern.

      Regarding genotype, we address this in comments above as well but believe that clarifying the use of litter mates, the extensive use of the VGLUT2-Cre line by multiple groups, and experimental design allowing for comparison to baseline, stimulation evoked, and post stimulation behaviors within and across genotypes mitigate possible concerns relating to the genotype.

      (8) What is the role of GABA neurons in the SuM and how does this relate to their function and interaction with glutamate neurons? In Supp 8, GABA neuron activation also modulates locomotion and in Fig 7 there is an effect on immobility, so this seems pretty important for the overall interpretation and should probably be mentioned in the abstract.

      Thank you for noting these interesting findings. We added text to highlight these findings to the abstract. Possible roles of GABAergic neurons in SuM extend beyond the scope of the current study particularly since SuM neurons have been shown to release both GABA and glutamate (Li Y, Bao H, Luo Y, et al. 2020, Root DH, Zhang S, Barker DJ et al. 2018). GABAergic neurons regulate dentate gyrus (Ajibola MI, Wu JW, Abdulmajeed WI, Lien CC 2021), REM sleep (Billwiller F, Renouard L, Clement O, Fort P, Luppi PH 2017), and novelty processing Chen S, He L, Huang AJY, Boehringer R et al. 2020). The population of exclusively GABAergic vs dual neurotransmitter neurons in SuM requires further dissection to be understood. How they may relate to SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons require further investigation.

      Questions about figure presentation:

      (9) In Fig 3, why are heat maps shown as a single animal for the first couple and a group average for the others?

      Thank you for highlighting this point for further clarification. We modified the labels in the figure to help make clear which figures are from one animal across multiple trials and those that are from multiple animals. In the ambush assay each animal one had one trial, to avoid habituation to the mock predator. Accordingly, we do not have multiple trials for each animal in this test. In contrast, the dunk assay (10 trial/animal) and the shock (5 trials/animal) had multiple trials for each animal. We present data from a representative animal when there are multiple trials per animal and the aggerate data.

      Why is the temporal resolution for J and K different even though the time scale shown is the same?

      Thank you for noticing this error carried forward from a prior draft of the figure so we could correct it. We replaced the image in 3J with a more correctly scaled heatmap.

      What is the evidence that these signal changes are not due to movement per se?

      Thank you for the question. There are two points of evidence. First, all the 465 nm excitation (Ca2+ dependent) data was collected in interleaved fashion with 415 nm (isosbestic) excitation data. The isosbestic signal is derived from GCaMP emission but is independent of Ca2+ binding (Martianova E, Aronson S, Proulx CD. 2019). This approach, time-division multiplexing, can correct calcium-dependent for changes in signal most often due to mechanical change. The second piece of evidence is experimental. Using multiple cohorts of mice, we examined if the change in Ca2+ signal was correlated with movement. We used the threshold of velocity of movement seen following the ambush. We found no correlation between high velocity movements and Ca2+ signal (Figure 3K) including cross correlational analysis (Supplemental figure 5). Based on these points together we conclude the change in the Ca2+ signal in SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons is not due to movement induced mechanical changes and we find no correlation to movement unless a stressor is present, i.e. mock predator ambush or forced swim. Further, the stressors evoke very different locomotor responses fleeing, jumping, or swimming.

      (10) In Fig 4, the authors carefully code various behaviors in mice. While they pick a few and show them as bars, they do not show the distribution of behaviors in Cre- vs Cre+ mice before manipulation (to show they have similar behaviors) or how these behaviors shift categories in each group with stimulation. Which behaviors in each group are shifting to others across the stim and post-stim periods compared to pre-stim?

      This is an important point. We selected behaviors to highlight in Figure4 C-E because these behaviors are exhibited in response to stress (De Boer & Koolhaas, 2003; van Erp et al., 1994). For the highlighted behaviors, jumping, treading/digging, grooming, we show baseline (pre photostimulation), stimulation, and post stimulation for Cre+ and Cre- mice with the values for each animal plotted. We show all nine behaviors as a heat map in Figure 4B. The panels show changes that may occur as a function of time and show changes induced by photostimulation.

      The heatmaps demonstrate that photostimulation of SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons causes a suppression of walking, grooming, and immobile behaviors with an increase in jumping, digging/treading, and rapid locomotion. After stimulation stops, there is an increase in grooming and time immobile. The control mice show a range of behaviors with no shifts noted with the onset or termination of photostimulation.

      Of note, issues of statistics, genotype, and SABV are important here. For example, the hint that treading/digging may have a slightly different pre-stim basal expression, it seems important to first evaluate strain and sex differences before interpreting these data.

      We examined the effects of sex as a biological variable in the experiments reported in the manuscript and found no differences among males and females in any of the experiments where we had enough animals in each sex (minimum of 5 mice) for meaningful comparisons. We did this by comparing means and SEM of males and females within each group (e.g. Cre+ males vs Cre+ female, Cre- males vs Cre- females) and then conducted a t-test to see if there was a difference. For figures that show time as a variable (e.g Figure 6C-E), we compared males and females with time x sex as main factors and compared them (including multiple comparisons if needed). We found no significant main effects or interactions between males and females. Because of this, and to maximize statistical power, we decided to move forward to keep males and females together in all the analyses presented in the manuscript. It is worth noting also that the core of the experimental design employed is a change in behavior caused by photostimulation. The mice are also the same strain with only difference being the modification to add an IRES and sequence for Cre behind the coding sequence of the Slc17A6 (VGLUT2) gene.

      (11) Why do the authors use 10 Hz stimulation primarily? is this a physiologically relevant stim frequency? They show that they get effects with 1 Hz, which can be quite different in terms of plasticity compared to 10 Hz.

      Thank you for the raising this important question. Because tests like open field and forced swim are subject to habituation and cannot be run multiple times per animal a test frequency was needed to use across multiple experiments for consistency. The frequency of 10Hz was selected because it falls within the rate of reported firing rates for SuM neurons (Farrel et al., 2021; Pedersen et al., 2017) and based on the robust but sub maximal effects seen in the real-time place preference assays. Identification of the native firing rates during stress response would be ideal but gathering this data for the identified population remains a dauting task.

      (12) In Fig 5A-F, it is unclear whether locomotion differences are playing a role. Entrances (which are low for both groups) are shown but distance traveled or velocity are not.

      In B, there is no color in the lower left panel. where are these mice spending their time? How is the entirety of the upper left panel brighter than the lower left? If the heat map is based on time distribution during the session, there should be more color in between blue and red in the lower left when you start to lose the red hot spots in the upper left, for example. That is, the mice have to be somewhere in apparatus. If the heat map is based on distance, it would seem the Cre- mice move less during the stim.

      We appreciate the opportunity to address this question, and the attention to detail the reviewer applied to our paper. In the real time place preference test (RTPP) stimulation would only be provided while the animal was on the stimulation side. Mice quickly leave the stimulation side of the arena, as seen in the supplemental video, particularly at the higher frequencies. Thus, the time stimulation is applied is quite low. The mice often retreat to a corner from entering the stimulation side during trials using higher frequency stimulation. Changing locomotor activity along could drive changes in the number entrances but we did not find this. In regard to the heat map, the color scale is dynamically set for each of the paired examples that are pulled from a single trial. To maximize the visibility between the paired examples the color scale does not transfer between the trials. As a result, in the example for 10 Hz the mouse spent a larger amount of time in the in the area corresponding to the lower right corner of the image and the maximum value of the color scale is assigned to that region. As seen in the supplemental video, mice often retreated to the corner of the non-stimulation side after entering the stimulation side. The control animal did not spend a concentrated amount of time in any one region, thus there is a lack of warmer colors. In contrast the baseline condition both Cre+ and Cre- mice spent time in areas disturbed on both sides of arena, as expected. As a result, the maximum value in the heat map is lower and more area are coded in warmer colors allowing for easier visual comparison between the pair. Using the scale for the 10 Hz pair across all leads to mostly dark images. We considered ways to optimized visualization across and within pairs and focused on the within pair comparison for visualization.

      (13) By starting with 1 hz, are the experimenters inducing LTD in the circuit? what would happen if you stop stimming after the first epoch? Would the behavioral effect continue? What does the heat map for the 1 hz stim look like?

      Relatedly, it is a lot of consistent stimulation over time and you likely would get glutamate depletion without a break in the stim for that long.

      Thank you for the opportunity to add clarity around this point regarding the trials in RTPP testing. Importantly, the trials were not carried out in order of increasing frequency of stimulation, as plotted. Rather, the order of trials was, to the extent possible with the number of mice, counterbalanced across the five conditions. Thus, possible contribution of effects of one trial on the next were minimized by altering the order of the trials.

      We have added a heat map for the 1 Hz condition to figure 5B.

      For experiments on RTPP the average stimulation time at 10Hz was less than 10 seconds per event. As a result, the data are unlikely to be affected by possible depletion of synaptic glutamate. For experiments using sustained stimulation (open field or light dark choice assays) we have no clear data to address if this might be a factor where 10Hz stimulation was applied for the entire trial.

      (14) In Fig 6, the authors show that the Cre- mice just don't do the task, so it is unclear what the utility of the rest of the figure is (such as the PR part). Relatedly, the pause is dependent on the activation, so isn't C just the same as D? In G and H, why ids a subset of Cre+ mice shown?

      Why not all mice, including Cre- mice?

      Thank you for the opportunity to improve the clarity of this section. A central aspect of the experiments in Figure 6 is the aversiveness of SUMVGLUT2+::POA neuron photostimulation, as shown in Figure 5B-F. The aversion to photostimulation drives task performance in the negative reinforcer paradigm. The mice perform a task (active port activation) to terminate the negative reinforcer (photostimulation of SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons). Accordingly, control mice are not expected to perform the task because SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons are not activated and, thus the mice are not motivated to perform the task.

      A central point we aim to covey in this figure is that while SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons are being stimulated, mice perform the operant task. They selectively activated the active port (Supplemental Figure 7). As expected, control mice activate the active port at a low level in the process of exploring the arena. This diminishes on subsequent trials as mice habituate to the arena (Figure 6D). The data in Figures 6 C and D are related but can be divergent. Each pause in stimulation requires a port activation of a FR1 test but the number of port activations can exceed the pauses, which are 10 seconds long, if the animal continues to activate the port. Comparing data in Figures 6 C and D revels that mice generally activated the port two to three times for each pause earned with a trend towards greater efficiency on day 4 with more rewards and fewer activations.

      The purpose of the progressive ratio test is to examine if photostimulation of SuMVGLUT2+::POA continues to drive behavior as the effort required to terminate the negative stimuli increases. As seen in Figures 6 G and H, the stimulation of SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons remains highly motivating. In the 20-minute trial we did not find a break point even as the number of port activations required to pause the stimulation exceed 50. We do not show the Cre- mice is Figure 6G and H because they did not perform the task, as seen in Figure 6F. For technical reasons in early trials, we have fully timely time stamped data for rewards and port activations from a subset of the Cre+ mice. Of note, this contains both the highest and lowest performing mice from the entire data set.

      Taken together, we interpret the results of the operant behavioral testing as demonstrating that SuMVGLUT2+::POA neuron activation is aversive, can drive performance of an operant tasks (as opposed to fixed escape behaviors), and is highly motivating.

      (15) In Fig 7, what does the GCaMP signal look like if aligned to the onset of immobility? It looks like since the hindpaw swimming is short and seems to precede immobility, and the increase in the signal is ramping up at the onset of hindpaw swimming, it may be that the calcium signal is aligned with the onset of immobility.

      What does it look like for swimming onset?

      In I, what is the temporal resolution for the decrease in immobility? Does it start prior to the termination of the stim, or does it require some elapsed time after the termination, etc?

      Thank for the opportunity to addresses these points and improve that clarity of our interpretation of the data. Regarding aligning the Ca2+ signal from fiber photometry recordings to swimming onset and offset, it is important to note that the swimming bouts are not the same length. As a result, in the time prior to alignment to offset of behaviors animals will have been swimming for different lengths of time. In Figure 7 C, we use the behavioral heat map to convey the behavioral average. Below we show the Ca2+ dependent signal aligned at the offset of hindpaw swim for an individual mouse (A) and for the total cohort (B). This alignment shows that the Ca2+ dependent signal declines corresponding to the termination of hindpaw swimming. Because these bouts last less than the total the widow shown, the data is largely included in Figure 7 C and D, which is aligned to onset. Due to the nuance of the difference is the alignment and the partial redundancy, we elected to include the requested alignment to swimming offset in the reply rather in primary figure.

      Author response image 1.

      Turning to the question regarding swimming onset, the animals started swimming immediately when placed in the water and maintained swimming and climbing behaviors until shifting behaviors as illustrated in Figure 7A and B. During this time the Ca2+-dependent signal was elevated but there is only one trial per animal. This question can perhaps be better addressed in the dunk assay presented in Figure 3C, F and G and Supplemental Figure 4 H and I. Here swimming started with each dunk and the Ca2+ signal increased.

      Regarding the question for about figure 7I. We scored for entire periods (2 mins) in aggerate. We noted in videos of the behavior test that there was an abrupt decrease in immobility tightly corresponding to the end of stimulation. In a few animals this shift occurred approximately 15-20s before the end of stimulation. This may relate to the depletion of neurotransmitter as suggested by the reviewer.

      Reviewer 3

      Major points

      (1) Results in Figure 1 suggested that SuM-Vglu2::POA projected not only POA but also to the diverse brain regions. We can think of two models which account for this. One is that homogeneous populations of neurons in SuM-Vglu2::POA have collaterals and innervated all the efferent targets shown in Figure 1. Another is to think of distinct subpopulations of neurons projecting subsets of efferent targets shown in Figure 1 as well as POA. It is suggested to address this by combining approaches taken in experiments for Figure 1 and Supplemental Figure 2.

      Thank you for raising this interesting point. We have attempted combining retroAAV injections into multiple areas that receive projections from SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons. However, we have found the results unsatisfactory for separating the two models proposed. Using eYFP and tdTomato expressing we saw some overlapping expressing in SuM. We are not able to conclude if this indicates separate populations or partial labeling of a homogenous populations. A third option seems possible as well. There could be a mix of neurons projecting to different combinations of downstream targets. This seems particularly difficult to address using fluorophores. We are preparing to apply additional methodologies to this question, but it extends beyond the scope of this manuscript.

      (2) Since the authors drew a hypothetical model in which the diverse brain regions mediate the effect of SuM-Vglu2::POA activation in behavioral alterations at least in part, examination of the concurrent activation of those brain regions upon photoactivation of SuM-Vglu2::POA. This must help the readers to understand which neural circuits act upon the induction of active coping behavior under stress.

      Thank you for raising this important point. We agree that activating glutamatergic neurons should lead to activation of post synaptic neurons in the target regions. Delineating this in vivo is less straight forward. Doing so requires much greater knowledge of post synaptic partners of SUMVGLUT2+::POA neurons. There are a number of issues that would need to be accounted for. Undertaking two color photo stimulation plus fiber photometry is possible but not a technical triviality. Further, it is possible that we would measure Ca2+ signals in neurons that have no relevant input or that local circuits in a region may shape the signal. We would also lack temporal resolution to identify mono-postsynaptic vs polysynaptic connections. Thus, we would struggle to know if the change in signal was due to the excitatory input from SuM or from a second region. At present, we remain unclear on how to pursue this question experimentally in a manner that is likely to generate clearly interpretable results.

      (3) In Figure 4, "active coping behaviors" must be called "behaviors relevant to the active behaviors" or "active coping-like behaviors", since those behaviors were in the absence of stressors to cope with.

      Thank you for the suggestion on how to clarify our terminology. We have adopted the active coping-like term.

      (4) For the Dunk test, it is suggested to describe the results and methods more in detail, since the readers would be new to it. In particular, the mice could change their behavior between dunks under this test, although they still showed immobility across trials as in Supplemental Figure 4I. Since neural activity during the test was summarized across trials as in Figure 3, it is critical to examine whether the behavior changes according to time.

      Thank you for identifying this opportunity to improve our manuscript. We have expanded and added a detailed description of the dunk test in the methods section.

      As for Supplemental Figure 4I, we apologize for the confusion because the purpose of this figure is to show that mice remained mobile for the entire 30-second dunk trial. This did not appreciably change over the 10 trials. We have revised this figure to plot both immobile and mobile time to achieve greater clarity on this point.

      Minor points

      Typos

      In Figure 1, please add a serotype of AAVs to make it compatible with other figures and their legends.

      In the main text and Figure 2K, the authors used MHb/LHb and mHb/lHb in a mixed fashion. Please make them unified.

      In the figure legend of Figure 6, change "SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons drive" to "SuMVGLUT2+::POA neurons " in the title.

      In line 86, please change "Retro-AAV2-Nuc-flox(mCherry)-eGFP" to "AAV5-Nuc-flox(mCherry)eGFP".

      In line 80, please change "Positive controls" to "As positive controls, ".

      Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to identify and call these out. We have corrected them.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      The revised manuscript is much improved - many unclear points are now better explained. However, in our opinion, some issues could still be significantly improved.

      1. Statistics: none of us are experts in statistics but several things remain questionable in our opinion and if it were our study, we would consult with an expert:

      a) while we understand the authors note about N-chasing and p-hacking, we wonder how the number of N's was premeditated before obtaining the results. Why in 4M an N of 3 is sufficient while in 3E the N is >20 (and not mentioned). At the very least, we think it would be wise to be cautious when stating something as not-significant when it is clear (as in 4M) that the likelihood of it actually being statistically significant is quite large.

      b) In most analyses, the data is not only normalized by actin or some other measure but also to the first (i.e left side on the graph) condition, resulting in identical data points that equal '1' (in Figure 4 alone - C; I; K; M; and O) - while this might be scientifically sound, it should be mentioned (the specific normalization) and also note that this technique shadows any real variance that exists in the original data in this condition. consider exploring techniques to overcome this issue.

      c) In 3C, - if we understand the experiment, you want to convince us that the DIFFERENCE between eB2-FC compared to FC is larger in the control compared to the experiment. We are not absolutely sure that the statistical tools employed here are sufficient - which is why we would consult an expert.

      A) We are aware that many studies do not consistently quantify such experiments. For example, there are essentially no published examples of the signalling timelines of EphB2 receptors as in Fig. 5. By striving to quantifying such biochemical effects, an unquantified experiment stands out, and so perhaps we were too strict by trying to quantify as many experiments as possible, resulting in low n’s for some of them. We acknowledge that additional experiments on EPHB1 protein stability may reach significance. We have adjusted our text on line 332-335 to point to this interesting trend, and slightly changed the conclusion to this section. Similarly, we commented on similar trends when describing Figs. 1E and 4G on lines 901 and 952.

      B) For the Western blot band intensity normalisation, we believe that our method is scientifically sound. Normally, when the replicate samples are loaded on one gel and blotted on the same membrane, the experimenter only needs to normalise the target band intensity to its cognate loading control band intensity for quantitation. However, we usually have a large number of samples from multiple experiments, carried out on different dates. For example, in Fig. 4B,C there are 7 biological replicates collected from 7 experiments and in Fig. 4D there are 10 protein samples. It is not possible for us to run all samples on the same gel. In addition, due to the combined effects of variance in transfer efficiency, the potency of antibodies, detection efficiency and the developing time for each blot, it is practically impossible to generate similar band intensity for each batch. Thus, we use normalisation of test bands to the loading control for individual experiments, and this analysis method is widely accepted by reputable journals with a focus on biochemical experiments (for example: PMID 37695914: Fig. 3 A,B,C; PMID 36282215: Fig. 3 B,C,D,E; PMID 33843588: Fig. 3 C,D,E,F,G,H). Since the value of the first sample on the plot is 1, which is a hypothetical value and does not meet the parametric test requirement, we performed one-sample t-test for statistics when other samples are compared with the first sample (PMID 35243233 Fig. 6 A,B,C,D; https://www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/oneSampleT1/, “A one sample t-test compares the mean with a hypothetical value. In most cases, the hypothetical value comes from theory. For example, if you express your data as 'percent of control', you can test whether the average differs significantly from 100.”). Thus, we believe that our normalisation and statistical methods are both correct with a large number of precedents.

      C) This comment refers to the cell collapse experiment shown in Fig. 3C for which the data are plotted in Fig. 3D. We stand by the statistical method used. There are two groups of cells (CTRLCRISPR and MYCBP2 CRISPR) and two treatments for each cell group (Fc control and eB2), thus we should use two-way ANOVA. Since we compared the cell retraction effects of Fc and eB2 on the two groups of cells, Sidak post hoc comparison is the right method to avoid errors introduced by multiple comparisons. Here is an example of an eLife article that used the same statistical method for similar comparisons: PMID 37830910, Fig. 1 H,I. To make the comparison easier, we grouped the experiments by cell type (CTRLCRISPR and MYCBP2 CRISPR) as opposed to by treatment. Below, the old version is on the right, and the new version is on the left. The conclusion is that eB2 induces less cell collapse in cells depleted of MYCBP2, when compared to the control cells. However, eB2 is still able to collapse cells lacking MYCBP2.

      Author response image 1.

      Revisiting these data, we noticed an error introduced when CC compiled the data used to generate Fig. 3D. The data were acquired from nine biological replicates per condition. CC used a mix of two methods for cell collapse rate calculation: the first method involved the sum of collapsed cells and all cells from multiple regions of one coverslip (biological replicate). The second method involved computing a collapse rate in each region which then was used to calculate the average collapse rate for the entire coverslip (technical replicate). Given the small cell numbers due to sparse culture conditions, we believe that the first method is a more conservative approach. We hence re-plotted all replicate data using the first method. This resulted in slightly different % collapse and p values. These were changed accordingly in the text and plot and do not affect the conclusion of this experiment.

      2) thanks for the clarification that the interaction between the extracellular domain of EPHB2 and MYCBP2 might not occur directly - however, unless we missed this it was not clearly stated in the text. It is an important point and also a cool direction for the future - to find the elusive co-receptor that actually helps EPHB2 and MYCBP2 form a complex.

      We now also refer to this in the results section on line 215.

      “Since EPHB2 is a transmembrane protein and MYCBP2 is localised in the cytosol, these experiments suggest that the interaction between the extracellular domain of EPHB2 and MYCBP2 might be indirect and mediated by other unknown transmembrane proteins.”

      3) The Hela CRISPR cell line is better explained in the response letter but still not sufficiently explained in the text for a non-expert reader. If the authors want any reader to comprehend this, we would strongly recommend adding a scheme.

      We now include a schematic outlining the CRISPR cell generation as Fig. 3A and its description on line 926.

      Author response image 2.

      4) To clarify some of our previous (and persisting) concerns about Figure 3D/E - it is true that a reduction in 25% of cell size is dramatic. But (if we understand correctly) your claim is that a reduction in 22% (this is a guess, as the actual numbers are not supplies) is significantly less than 25%. Even if it is, statistically speaking, significant, what is the physiological relevance of this very slight effect? In this experiment, the N was quite large, and we wonder if the images in D are representative - it would be nice to label the data points in E to highlight which images you used.

      We now mention the average cell area contraction measurements in the legend to Fig. 3F on line 935. We also tracked down the individual cells shown in Fig. 3E and they are now labelled as data points in blue in Fig. 3F. HeLa cell collapse is a simplified model of EPHB2 function and we do not know whether the difference between the behaviour of CTRLCRISPR and MYCBP2 CRISPR cells is physiologically significant and thus we prefer not to speculate on this.

      5) Figure 3F and other stripe assays - In the end, it is your choice how to quantify. We believe that quantifying area of overlap is a more informative and objective measurement that might actually benefit your analyses. That said, if you do keep the quantification as it is now, you have to define the threshold of what you mean by "cell/s (or an axon in 7A, where it is even more complicated as are you eluding to primary, secondary, or even smaller branches) are RESIDING within the stripe". Is 1% overlap sufficient or do you need 10 or 50% overlap?

      We now added this statement to the methods on line 745: “A cell was considered to be on an ephrin-B2 stripe when more than 50% of its nucleus was located on that stripe”. For chick explant stripe assay, when measuring the length of an axon on a stripe, we only measured the main axons originated from the explants.

      For explant/stripe experiments in Fig. 7 AB, we now use the term “GFP-expressing neurite” rather than “branch”. This was already present in the results of the previous version, but the methods and legend needed to be brought up to date (lines 786 and 1008. We think that “branch” was a confusing term that was supposed to mean the same thing as “neurite” but came across as some indication of branching. We do not know whether the GFP+ neurites were primary or secondary extensions of explants, or in fact, whether some of them contained more than one axon. We also adjusted the method to reflect the fact that some stripes were used in conjunction with a single explant and added a reference to a previous study extensively using this method (Poliak et al., 2015) on line 778.

      6) We still don't get the link to the lysosomal degradation. Your data suggests that in your cells EPHB2 is primarily degraded by the lysosomal pathway and not proteasome. Any statement about MYCBP2 is not strongly supported by the data, in our opinion - Unless you develop some statistical measurement that shows that the effect of BafA1 is statistically different in MYCBP2 cells than in control cells. Currently, this is not the case and the link is therefore not warranted in our opinion.

      We generated a new version of Fig. 4K with average increase in EPHB2 levels in the presence of BafA1 and CoQ, compared to DMSO treated controls (see below). BafA1 and CoQ restored EPHB2 protein levels by 19% and 14% respectively in CtrlCRISPR cells, while the inhibitors restored EPHB2 protein levels by 40% and 35% respectively in MYCBP2 CRISPR cells.

      Author response image 3.

      For each of the 4 replicates, the increase in EPHB2 levels by BafA1 compared to DMSO is as follows:

      Author response table 1.

      These values are not significantly different between CtrlCRISPR cells versus MYCBP2 CRISPR cells (p= 0.08, student’s t test). Similarly for the CoQ experiment. We now temper our conclusion for this experiment: Although the difference in percentage increase between CTRLCRISPR cells and MYCBP2CRISPR cells is not significant, this trend raises the possibility that the loss of MYCBP2 promotes EPHB2 receptor degradation through the lysosomal pathway (line 319). We also adjusted the section title (line 306).

      7) While the C. elegans part is now MUCH better explained - we are not sure we understand the additional insight. The fact that vab-1 and glo4 double mutants are additive as are vab1 and fsn1, suggest they act in parallel (if the mutants are NULL, and not if they are hypomorphs, if one wants to be accurate) - how this relates to your story is unclear. The vab1/rpm1 double mutant is still uninformative and incomplete. rpm1 phenotype is so severe that nothing would make it more severe. We read the Jin paper that the authors directed to - nothing makes the rpm1 phenotype more severe. Yes, some DOWNSTREAM elements make the rpm1 phenotype LESS severe - this is not something you were testing, to the best of our knowledge. Rather, you wanted to see if rpm1 mutant resulted in stabilization of vab1 and thus suppression of vab1 phenotype - we are just not sure the system is amenable to test (actually reject) your hypothesis that Vab1 is degraded by rpm1. Also, assuming we are talking about NULLs, the fact that the rpm1 phenotype is WAY stronger than the vab1 mutant, suggests that rpm1 functions via multiple routes, adding even more complexity to the system. Given these results, despite the much improved clarity, we are still not sure that the worm data adds new insight, rather than potentially confusing the reader.

      We realise that the genetic interactions between vab-1 and the RPM-1/MYCBP2 signalling network are complicated. However, we insist on keeping the data for the sake of its availability for future studies and completeness. We also think it is important for readers and the community to see these data, even if the authors and reviewers are not entirely in agreement about the importance/interpretation of experimental outcomes. It is our hope that the community will examine the results and draw their own conclusions.

      A few points of clarification:

      The C. elegans experiments were designed to test genetically if the vertebrate interactions between EPHB2 and MYCBP2 and its signalling network are conserved. We studied two kinds of interactions: (1) between vab-1 and RPM-1/MYCBP2 downstream proteins (GLO-4 and FSN-1) and (2) between vab-1 and rpm-1. For these studies, we used null alleles for vab-1, glo-4 and fsn-1 which is now noted on lines 440, 453, 475 and 859. Our findings are consistent with the VAB-1 Ephrin receptor functioning in parallel to known RPM-1 binding proteins. This is further supported by new data: vab-1; fsn-1 double mutants showed enhanced incidence of axon overextension defects using a second transgenic background, zdIs5 (Pmec-4::GFP), to visualize axon termination (Fig. 8F).

      This second transgenic background also allowed us to generate new data to address your concerns about phenotypic saturation in rpm-1 mutants. To do this, we used the zdIs5 (Pmec4::GFP) genetic background, in which axon termination defects are not saturated in rpm-1 mutants (Fig. 8F) because they can be enhanced by other mutants such as cdc-42 and unc-33 (Fig. 7C, D, in Borgen et al. Development 144, 4658–4672 (2017), PMID 29084805). In this new background, we found that vab-1 loss of function fails to enhance the incidence of severe “hook” defects in rpm-1 mutants which is an indication that the two genes function in the same pathway. Importantly, prior studies in this background, also showed that mutants in the RPM-1 signalling network (e.g. fsn-1, glo-4 and ppm-2) do not enhance the incidence of severe “hook” defects as double mutants with rpm-1 compared to rpm-1 single mutants (Fig. 7B, ibid.).

      To reflect these ideas more clearly, we revised the Results section pertaining to C. elegans genetics (starting on line 418) and tempered our discussion (lines 517). Basically, this section now says that we studied genetic interactions between vab-1 and the RPM-1/MYCBP2 signalling network. From these experiments we conclude that: (1) The enhancement of overextension defects in vab-1; glo-4 and vab-1; fsn-1 double mutants compared to single mutants indicates that VAB-1/EPHR functions in parallel to known RPM-1 binding proteins to facilitate axon termination, and (2) Since the vab-1; rpm-1 double mutants do not display an increased frequency or severity of overextension defects compared to rpm-1 single mutants, VAB-1 /EPHR functions in the same genetic pathway as RPM-1/MYCBP2.

      The new genetic data included in this version were generated by Karla J. Opperman who is now included as a co-author.

      Further corrections:

      Author response image 4.

      Because of the errors associated with quantifications in Fig. 3D (see above), we reviewed other quantification methodologies and noticed another discrepancy that required a correction. In the hippocampal neuron growth cone collapse assay shown in the previous version of Fig. 7 D (left), the growth cones were classified into three groups: 1, fully collapsed; 2, hard to tell, but not fully collapsed; 3, fan-shape cones. Two different quantifications were performed as follows: (1), number of fully collapsed cones divided by the numbers of all growth cones; (2), number of fully collapsed cones divided by [number of fully collapsed cones + fan-shape cones]. CC erroneously used the second method to generate Fig. 7D.

      We think that the first method is more appropriate. Furthermore, since n=5 for the Fc and eB1-Fc conditions, but n=3 for the eB2-Fc condition, we decided to omit it. The final plot for figure 7D is the following:

      Author response image 5.

      Our conclusion still stands that exogenous FBD1 WT overexpression impaired the growth cone collapse mediated by EphB.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, Steinemann et al. characterized the nature of stochastic signals underlying the trial-averaged responses observed in the lateral intraparietal cortex (LIP) of non-human primates (NHPs), while these performed the widely used random dot direction discrimination task. Ramp-up dynamics in the trial averaged LIP responses were reported in numerous papers before. However, the temporal dynamics of these signals at the single-trial level have been subject to debate. Using large-scale neuronal recordings with Neuropixels in NHPs, allows the authors to settle this debate rather compellingly. They show that drift-diffusion-like computations account well for the observed dynamics in LIP.

      Strengths:

      This work uses innovative technical approaches (Neuropixel recordings in behaving macaque monkeys). The authors tackle a vexing question that requires measurements of simultaneous neuronal population activity and hence leverage this advanced recording technique in a convincing way

      They use different population decoding strategies to help interpret the results.

      They also compare how decoders relying on the data-driven approach using dimensionality reduction of the full neural population space compare to decoders relying on more traditional ways to categorize neurons that are based on hypotheses about their function. Intriguingly, although the functionally identified neurons are a modest fraction of the population, decoders that only rely on this fraction achieve comparable decoding performance to those relying on the full population. Moreover, decoding weights for the full population did not allow the authors to reliably identify the functionally identified subpopulation.

      Weaknesses:

      No major weaknesses beyond a few, largely clarification issues, detailed below.

      We thank Reviewer 1 (R1) for this summary. The revised manuscript incorporates R1’s suggestions, as detailed below.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Steinemann, Stine, and their co-authors studied the noisy accumulation of sensory evidence during perceptual decision-making using Neuropixels recordings in awake, behaving monkeys. Previous work has largely focused on describing the neural underpinnings through which sensory evidence accumulates to inform decisions, a process which on average resembles the systematic drift of a scalar decision variable toward an evidence threshold. The additional order of magnitude in recording throughput permitted by the methodology adopted in this work offers two opportunities to extend this understanding. First, larger-scale recordings allow for the study of relationships between the population activity state and behavior without averaging across trials. The authors’ observation here of covariation between the trial-to-trial fluctuations of activity and behavior (choice, reaction time) constitutes interesting new evidence for the claim that neural populations in LIP encode the behaviorally-relevant internal decision variable. Second, using Neuropixels allows the authors to sample LIP neurons with more diverse response properties (e.g. spatial RF location, motion direction selectivity), making the important question of how decision-related computations are structured in LIP amenable to study. For these reasons, the dataset collected in this study is unique and potentially quite valuable.

      However, the analyses at present do not convincingly support two of the manuscript’s key claims: (1) that ”sophisticated analyses of the full neuronal state space” and ”a simple average of Tconin neurons’ yield roughly equivalent representations of the decision variable; and (2) that direction-selective units in LIP provide the samples of instantaneous evidence that these Tconin neurons integrate. Supporting claim (1) would require results from sophisticated population analyses leveraging the full neuronal state space; however, the current analyses instead focus almost exclusively on 1D projections of the data. Supporting claim (2) convincingly would require larger samples of units overlapping the motion stimulus, as well as additional control analyses.

      We thank the reviewer (R2) for their careful reading of our paper and the many useful suggestions.

      As detailed below, the revised manuscript incorporates new control analyses, improved quantification, and statistical rigor, which now provide compelling support for key claim #1. We do not regard claim #2 as a key claim of the paper. It is an intriguing finding with solid support, worthy of dissemination and further investigation. We have clarified the writing on this matter.

      Specific shortcomings are addressed in further detail below:

      (1) The key analysis-correlation between trial-by-trial activity fluctuations and behavior, presented in Figure 5 is opaque, and would be more convincing with negative controls. To strengthen the claim that the relationship between fluctuations in (a projection of) activity and fluctuations in behavior is significant/meaningful, some evidence should be brought that this relationship is specific - e.g. do all projections of activity give rise to this relationship (or not), or what level of leverage is achieved with respect to choice/RT when the trial-by-trial correspondence with activity is broken by shuffling.

      We do not understand why R2 finds the analysis opaque, but we are grateful for the lucid recommendations. The relationships between fluctuations in neural activity and behavior are indeed “specific” in the sense that R2 uses this term. In addition to the shuffle control, which destroys both relationships (Reviewer Figure 1), we performed additional control analyses that preserve the correspondence of neural signals and behavior on the same trial. We generated random coding directions (CDs) by establishing weight vectors that were either chosen from a standard normal distribution or by permuting the weights assigned to PC-1 in each session. The latter is the more conservative measure. Projections of the neural responses onto these random coding directions render 𝑆rand(𝑡). Specifically, the degree of leverage is effectively zero or greatly reduced. These analyses are summarized in a new Supplementary Figure S10. The bottom row of Figure S10 also addresses the question, “What degree of leverage and mediation would be expected for a theoretical decision variable?” This is accomplished by simulating decision variables using the drift-diffusion model fits in Figure 1c. The simulation is consistent with the leverage and (incomplete) mediation observed for the populations of Tcon neurons. For details see Methods, Simulated decision variables and Leverage of single-trial activity on behavior.

      (2) The choice to perform most analysis on 1D projections of population activity is not wholly appropriate for this unique type of dataset, limiting the novelty of the findings, and the interpretation of similarity between results across choices of projection appears circular:

      We disagree with the characterization of our argument as circular, but R2 raises several important points that will probably occur to other careful readers. We address them as subpoints 2.1–2.4, below. Importantly, we are neither claiming nor assuming that the LIP population activity is one-dimensional. We have revised the paper to avoid giving this impression. We are also not claiming that the average of Tin neurons (or the 1D projections) explains all features of the LIP population, nor would we expect it to, given the diversity of response fields across the population. Our objective is to identify the specific dimension within population activity that captures the decision variable (DV), which has been characterized successfully as a one-dimensional stochastic process—that is, a scalar function of time. We have endeavored to clarify our thinking on this point in the revised manuscript (e.g., lines 97–98, 103–104).

      (2.1) The bulk of the analyses (Figure 2, Figure 3, part of Figure 4, Figure 5, Figure 6) operate on one of several 1D projections of simultaneously recorded activity. Unless the embedding dimension of these datasets really does not exceed 1 (dimensionality using e.g. participation ratio in each session is not quantified), it is likely that these projections elide meaningful features of LIP population activity.

      We now report the participation ratio (4.4 ± 0.4, mean ± s.e. across sessions), and we state that the first 3 PCs explain 67.1±3.1% of the variance of time- and coherence-dependent signals used for the PCA. We agree that the 1D projections may elide meaningful features of LIP population activity. Indeed, we make this point through our analysis of the Min neurons. We do not claim that the 1D projections explain all of the meaningful features of LIP population activity. They do, however, reveal the decision variable, which is our main focus. These 1D signals contain features that correlate with events in the superior colliculus, summarized in Stine et al. (2023), attesting to their biological relevance.

      (2.2) Further, the observed similarity of results across these 1D projections may not be meaningful/interpretable. First, the rationale behind deriving Sramp was based on the ramping historically observed in Tin neurons during this task, so should be expected to resemble Tin.

      The Reviewer is correct that we would expect 𝑆ramp to resemble the ramping observed in Tin neurons. We refer to this approach as hypothesis-driven. It captures the drift component of drift-diffusion. It is true that the Tcon neurons exhibit such ramps in their trial average firing rates, but this does not guarantee in

      that the single-trial population firing rates would manifest as drift-diffusion. Indeed Latimer et al. (2015) concluded that the ramp-like averages comprise stepping from a low to a high firing rate on each trial at a random time. Therefore, while R2 is right to characterize the similarity of Tcon to the ramp direction in in trial-averaged activity as unsurprising, their similarity on single trials is not guaranteed.

      (2.3) Second, Tin comprises the largest fraction of the neuron groups sampled during most sessions, so SPC1 should resemble Tin too. The finding that decision variables derived from the whole population’s activity reduce essentially to the average of Tin neurons is thus at least in part ’baked in’ to the approach used for deriving the decision variables.

      This is incorrect. The Tcon in neurons constitute only 14.5% of the population, on average, across the sessions (see Table 1). This misunderstanding might contribute to R2’s concern about the importance of these neurons in shaping PC1. It is not simply because they are over-represented. Also, addressing R2’s concern about circularity, we would like to remind R2 that the selection of Tin neurons was based only on their spatial selectivity in the delayed saccade task. We do not see how it could be baked-in/guaranteed that a simple average of these neurons (i.e. zero degrees of freedom) yields dynamics and behavioral correlations that match those produced by dimensionality-reduction techniques that (𝑖) have degrees of freedom equal to the number of neurons and (𝑖𝑖) are blind to the neurons’ spatial selectivity. We have additionally modified what is now Supplementary Figure S13 (old Supplementary Figure S8), which portrays the mean accuracy of choice decoders trained on the neural activity of all neurons, only Tin neurons, all but the Tin neurons, and all but Tin and Min neurons, respectively. Figure S13 now highlights how much more readily choice can be decoded from the small population of Tin neurons than the remainder of the population.

      (2.4) The analysis presented in Figure S6 looks like an attempt to demonstrate that this isn’t the case, but is opaque. Are the magnitudes of weights assigned to units in Tin larger than in the other groups of units with preselected response properties? What is their mean weighting magnitude, in comparison with the mean weight magnitude assigned to other groups? What is the null level of correspondence observed between weight magnitude and assignment to Tin (e.g. a negative control, where the identities of units are scrambled)?

      The revised Figure S6—what is now Figure S9—displays more clearly that the weights assigned to Tcon and Tips neurons (purple & yellow, respectively) are larger in magnitude than those assigned in in to other neurons (gray). Author response table 1 shows a more detailed breakdown of the groups. Note that the length of the vector of weights is one. We are unsure what R2 means by “the null level of correspondence.” Perhaps it helps to know that the mean weight of the “other neurons” is close to zero for all four coding directions. However, it is the overlap of the weights and the relative abundance of non-Tin neurons that is more germane to the point we are making. To wit, knowing the weight (or percentile) of a neuron is a poor predictor that it belongs to the Tin category. This point is most clearly supported by the logistic regression (Fig. S9, bottom row). In other words, the large group of non-Tin neurons contribute substantially to all four coding directions examined in Figure S9. Thus, the similarity between Tin neurons and PC1 is not simply due to an over-representation of Tin neurons as suggested in item 2.3.

      Author response table 1.

      Mean weights assigned to neuron classes in four coding directions.

      (3) The principal components analysis normalization procedure is unclear, and potentially incorrect and misleading: Why use the chosen normalization window (±25ms around 100ms after motion stimulus onset) for standardizing activity for PCA, rather than the typical choice of mean/standard deviation of activity in the full data window? This choice would specifically squash responses for units with a strong visual response, which distorts the covariance matrix, and thus the principal components that result. This kind of departure from the standard procedure should be clearly justified: what do the principal components look like when a standard procedure is used, and why was this insufficient/incorrect/unsuitable for this setting?

      We used the early window because it is a robust measure of overall excitability, but we now use a more conventional window that spans the main epoch of our analyses, 200–600 ms after motion onset. This method yields results qualitatively similar to the original method. We are persuaded that this is the more sensible choice. We thank R2 for raising this concern.

      (4) Analysis conclusions would generally be stronger with estimates of variability and control analyses: This applies broadly to Figures 2-6.

      We have added estimates of variability and control analyses where appropriate.

      Figure 2 shows examples of single-trial signals. The variability is addressed in Figure 3a and the new Supplementary Figure S5.

      Figure 3 now contains error bars derived by bootstrapping (see Methods, Variance and autocorrelation of smoothed diffusion signals). We have also added Supplementary Figure S5, which substantiates the sublinearity claim using simulations.

      Figure 4 (i) We now indicate the s.e.m. of decoding accuracy (across sessions) by the shading in Figure 4a. (ii) The black symbols in new Supplementary Figure S8 show the mean±s.e.m. for all pairwise comparisons shown in Figure 4d & e. (iii) Supplementary Figure S8 also summarizes two control analyses that deploy random coding directions (CDs) in neuronal state space. The upper row of Fig S9 compares the observed cosine similarity (CoSim)—between the CD identified by the graph title and the other four CDs labeled along the abscissa—with values obtained with 1000 random CDs established by random permutations of the weight assignments. The brown symbols are the mean±sdev of the CoSim (N=1000). The error bars are smaller than the symbols. We use the cumulative distribution of CoSim under permutation to estimate p-values (p<0.001 for all comparisons). We used a similar approach to estimate the distribution of the analogous correlation statistics between signals rendered by random directions in state space (Figure S8, lower row). For additional details, please see Methods, Similarity of single-trial signals.

      Figure 5: The rigor of all claims associated with this figure is adduced from two control analyses and a simulation. The first control breaks the trial-by-trial correspondence between neural signals and behavior (Reviewer Figure 1). The second control shows that neural activity does not have substantial leverage on behavior when projected onto random directions in state space (Supplementary Figure S10, top). Simulations of decision variables using parameters derived from the fits to the behavioral data (Figure 1) support a degree of leverage and mediation comparable to the values observed for 𝑆Tincon (Supplementary Figure S10, bottom). For additional details, please see Methods (Leverage of single-trial activity on behavior) and the reply to item 1, above.

      Figure 6: Panels c&d show estimates of variability across neurons and experimental sessions, respectively. The reported p-value is based on a permutation test (see Methods, Correlations between Min and Tconin ). The correlations shown in panel e (heatmap) are derived from pooled data across sessions. The reported p-value is based on a permutation test (see Methods, Correlations between Min and Tconin ).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The paper investigates which aspects of neural activity in LIP of the macaque give rise to individual decisions

      (specificity of choice and reaction times) in single trials, by recording simultaneously from hundreds of neurons. Using a variety of dimensionality reduction and decoding techniques, they demonstrate that a population-based drift-diffusion signal, which relies on a small subset of neurons that overlap choice targets, is responsible for the choice and reaction time variability. Analysis of direction-selective neurons in LIP and their correlation with decision-related neurons (T con in [Tconin ] neurons ) suggests that evidence integration occurs within area LIP.

      Strengths:

      This is an important and interesting paper, which resolves conflicting hypotheses regarding the mechanisms that underlie decision-making in single trials. This is made possible by exploiting novel technology (Primatepixels recordings), in conjunction with state-of-the-art analyses and well-established dynamic random dot motion discrimination tasks.

      General recommendations:

      (1) Please tone down causal language. You presentcompelling correlativeevidencefor the idea thatLIP population activity encodes the drift-diffusion DV. We feel that claims beyond that (e.g., ”Single-trial drift-diffusion signals control the choice and decision time”) would require direct interventions, and are only partially supported by the current evidence. Further examples are provided in point 1) of Reviewer 1 below.

      We have adopted the recommendation to “tone down the causal language.” Throughout the manuscript, we strive to avoid conveying the false impression that the present findings provide causal support for the decision mechanism. However, other causal studies of LIP support causality in the random dot motion task (Hanks et al., 2006; Jeurissen et al., 2022). It is therefore justifiable to use terms that imply causality in statements intended to convey hypotheses about mechanism. We agree that we should not give the false impression that the present support for said mechanism is adduced from causal perturbations in this study, as there were none.

      (2) Please provide a commonly used, data-driven quantification of the dimensionality of the population activity – for example, using participation ratio or the number of PCs explaining 90 % of the variance. This will help readers evaluate the conclusions about the dimensionality of the data.

      Principal component analysis reveals a participation ratio of 4.4 ± 0.4 (mean ±s.e., across sessions), and the first 3 PCs explain 67.1 ± 3.1 percent of the variance. The dimensionality of the data is low, but greater than one. We state this in Methods (Principal Component Analysis) and in Results (Single-trial drift-diffusion signals approximate the decision variable, lines 200–201).

      (3) Please justify the normalization procedure used for PCA: Why use the chosen normalization window (±25ms around 100ms after motion stimulus onset) for standardizing activity for PCA, rather than the more common quantification of mean/standard deviation across the full data window? What do the first principal components look like when the latter procedure is used?

      We now use a more conventional window that spans the main epoch of our analyses, 200–600 ms after motion onset. This method yields results qualitatively similar to the original method. We are persuaded that this is the more sensible choice.

      (4) Please provide estimates of variability for variance and autocorrelation in Fig. 3 (e.g., through bootstrapping). Further, simulations could substantiate the claim about the expected sub-linearity at later time points (Fig. 3a) due to the upper stopping bound and limited firing rate range.

      We thank the reviewers for these helpful recommendations. The revised Fig. 3 now contains error bars derived by bootstrapping (see Methods, Variance and autocorrelation of smoothed diffusion signals). We have also added Supplementary Figure S5, which substantiates the sub-linearity claim using simulations.

      (5) Please add controls and estimates of variability for decoding across sessions in Fig. 4: what are the levels of within-trial correlation/cosine similarity for random coding directions? What is the variability in the estimates of values shown in a/d/e?

      We have addressed each of these items. (1) Figure 4a now shows the s.e.m. of decoding accuracy (across sessions). (2) Regarding the variability of estimates shown in Figure 4d & e, the standard errors are displayed in the new supplementary Figure S8. It makes sense to show them there because there is no natural way to represent error on the heat maps in Figure 4, and Figure S8 concerns the comparison of the values in Figure 4d&e to values derived from random coding directions. (3) Random coding directions lead to values of cosine similarity and within-trial correlation that do not differ significantly from zero. We show this in several ways, summarized in our reply to Public Review item 4. Additional details are in the revised manuscript (Methods, Similarity of single-trial signals) and the new Supplementary Figure S8.

      (6) Please perform additional analysis to strengthen the claim from Fig. 6, that Min represents the integrand and not the integral. The analysis in Fig. 6d could be repeated with the integral (cumulative sum) of the single-trial Min signals. Does this yield an increase in leverage over time?

      The short answer is, yes in part. Reviewer Figure 2a provides support for leverage of the integral on choice, and this leverage, like 𝑆Tincon (t), increases as a function of time. The effect is present in all seven sessions that have both Mleftin and Mrightin neurons (all 𝑝 < 1𝑒 − 10). However, as shown in panel b, the same integral fails to demonstrate more than a hint of leverage on RT. All correlations are barely negative, and the magnitude does not increase as a function of time. We suspect—but cannot prove—that this failure arises because of limited power and the expected weak effect. Recall that the mediation analysis of RT is restricted to longer trials. Moreover, the correlation between the Min difference and the Tin signal is less than 0.1 (heatmap, Fig. 6e), implying that the Min difference explains less than 1% of the variance of 𝑆Tin(𝑡). We considered including Reviewer Figure 2 in the paper, but we feel it would be disingenuous (cherry-picking) to report only the positive outcome of the leverage on choice. If the editors feel strongly about it, we would be open to including it, but leaving these analyses out of the revised manuscript seems more consistent with our effort to deëmphasize this finding. In the future, we plan to record simultaneously from populations MT and LIP neurons (Min and Tin, of course) and optimize Min neuron yield by placing the RDM stimulus in the periphery.

      (7) Please describe the complete procedure for determining spatially-selective activity. E.g.: What response epoch was used, what was the spatial layout of the response targets, were responses to all ipsi- vs contralateral targets pooled, what was the spatial distribution of response fields relative to the choice targets across the population?

      We thank the reviewers for pointing out this oversight. We now explain this procedure in the Methods (lines 629–644):

      Neurons were classified post hoc as Tin by visual-inspection of spatial heatmaps of neural activity acquired in the delayed saccade task. We inspected activity in the visual, delay, and perisaccadic epochs of the task. The distribution of target locations was guided by the spatial selectivity of simultaneously recorded neurons in the superior colliculus (see Stine 2023 for details). Briefly, after identifying the location of the SC response fields, we randomly presented saccade targets within this location and seven other, equally spaced locations at the same eccentricity. In monkey J we also included 1–3 additional eccentricities, spanning 5–16 degrees. Neurons were classified as Tin if they displayed a clear, spatially-selective response in at least one epoch to one of the two locations occupied by the choice targets in the main task. Neurons that switched their spatial selectivity in different epochs were not classified as Tin. The classification was conducted before the analyses of activity in the motion discrimination task. The procedure was meant to mimic those used in earlier single-neuron studies of LIP (e.g., Roitman & Shadlen 2002) in which the location of the choice targets was determined online by the qualitative spatial selectivity of the neuron under study. The Tcon neurons in the in present study were highly selective for either the contralateral or ipislateral choice target used in the RDM task (AUC = 0.89±0.01; 𝑝 < 0.05 for 97% of neurons, Wilcoxon rank sum test). Given the sparse sampling of saccade target locations, we are unable to supply a quantitative estimate of the center and spatial extent of the RFs.

      (8) Please clarify if a neuron could be classified as both Tin and Min. Or were these categories mutually exclusive?

      These categories are mutually exclusive. If a neuron has spatially-selective persistent activity, as defined by the method described above, it is classified as a Tin neuron and not as an Min neuron even if it also shows motion-selective activity during passive motion viewing. We now specify this in the Methods (lines 831–832).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      𝑅∗1.1a Causal language (Line 23-24): “population activity represents […] drift” and “we provide direct support for the hypothesis that drift-diffusion signal is the quantity responsible for the variability in choice and RT” reads at first sight as if the authors claim that they present evidence for a causal effect of LIP activity on choice. The authors areotherwisenuanced and carefultopointout thattheir evidence is correlational. What seems to be meant is that the population activity/drift-diffusion signal ”approximates the DV that gives rise to the choices […]” (cf. line 399). I would recommend using such alternative phrasing to avoid confusion (and the typically strong reactions by readers against misleading causal statements).

      We have adopted the reviewer’s recommendation and have modified the text throughout to reduce causal language. See our response to General Recommendation 1.

      𝑅∗1.1b Relatedly, any discussion about the possibility of LIP being causally involved in evidence integration (e.g. lines 429-445 [Au: now 462–478]) should also comment on the possibility of a distributed representation of the decision variable given that neural correlates of the DV have been reported in several areas including PFC, caudate and FEF.

      We believe this is possible. However, we hope to avoid discussions about causality given that it is not a focus of the paper. Although it is somewhat tangential, we have shown elsewhere that LIP is causal in the sense that causal manipulations affect behavior, but it is also true that causality does not imply necessity, and similarly, lack of necessity does not imply “only correlation.” Regarding distributed representations, it is worth keeping in mind the cautionary counter-example furnished by the SC study (Stine et al., 2023). The firing rates measured by averaging over trials are similar in SC and LIP; both manifest as coherence and direction-dependent ramps, leading to the suggestion that they form a distributed representation of the decision variable. With single-trial resolution, we now know that LIP and SC exhibit distinct dynamics—drift-diffusion and bursting, respectively. It remains to be seen if single-trial resolution achievable by simultaneous Neuropixels recordings from prefrontal areas and LIP reveal shared or distinct dynamics.

      𝑅∗1.2 How was the spatially selective activity determined? The classification of Tin neurons is critical to this study - how was their spatial selectivity determined? Please describe this in similar detail as the description of direction selectivity on lines 681-690 [Au: now 824–832]. E.g.: what response epoch was used, what was the spatial layout of the response targets, were responses to all ipsi- vs contralateral targets pooled, and what was the spatial distribution of response fields relative to the choice targets across the population?

      We now explain the selection procedure in Methods (lines 629–644). Please see our reply to General Recommendation 7, above.

      𝑅∗1.3 Could a neuron be classified as both Tin and Min, or were these categories mutually exclusive? Please clarify. (This goes beyond the scope of the current study: but did the authors find evidence for topographic organization or clustering of these categories of neurons?)

      These categories are mutually exclusive. Please see our response to General Recommendation 8, above.

      𝑅∗1.4 Contrary to the statement on line 121, the trial averages in Fig. 2a, 2b show coherence dependency at the time of the saccade in saccade-aligned traces for the coding strategies, except for STin (fig. 2c). Is this a result of the choice for t1 (= 0.1s)? (The authors may want to change their statement on line 121.) Relatedly, do the population responses for the two coding strategies Sramp and SPC1 depend on the epoch used to derive weights for individual neurons?

      We have revised the description to accommodate R2’s observation. 𝑆ramp retains weak coherence-dependence before saccades towards the choice target contralateral to the recording site. This was true in four of the eight sessions. For 𝑆PC1, there is no longer a coherence dependency for the Tin choices, owing to the change in normalization method (see revised Figure 2b).

      We also corrected an error in the Methods section. Specifically, the ramp ends at 𝑡1 \= 0.05 s before the time of the saccade, not 𝑡1 \= 0.1 s. While we no longer emphasize the similarity of traces aligned to saccade, it is reasonable to find issue with the observation that they retain a dependency on coherence (𝑆ramp only) because, according to theory, traces associated with Tin choices should reach a common positive threshold at decision termination. That said, for the Ramp direction there may be a reason to expect this discrepancy from theory. The deterministic part of drift-diffusion includes an urgency signal that confers positive convexity to the deterministic drift. This accelerating nonlinearity is not captured by the ramp, and it is more prominent at longer decision times, thus low coherences. We do not share this interpretation in the revised manuscript, in part because retention of coherence dependency is present in only half the sessions (see Reviewer Figure 3) The correction to the definition of 𝑡1 also provides an opportunity to address R2’s final question (“Relatedly,…?”). For 𝑆ramp this particular variation in 𝑡1 does not affect 𝑆ramp, and 𝑆PC1 no longer retains coherence dependency for Tin choices. Note that our choice of 𝑡0 and 𝑡1 is based on the empirical observation that the ramping activity in response averages of Tin neurons typically begins 200 ms after motion onset and ends 50–100 ms before initiation of the saccadic choice. The starting time (𝑡0) is also supported by the observation that the decoding accuracy of a choice-decoder begins to diverge from chance at this time (Figure 4a).

      𝑅∗1.5 It is intriguing that Sramp and SPC1 show dynamics that look so similar (fig. 2a, 2b). How do the weights assigned to each neuron in both strategies compare across the population?

      The weights assigned to each neuron are very similar across the two strategies as indicated by a cosine similarity (0.65 ± 0.04, mean ±s.e.m. across sessions).

      𝑅∗1.6 Tin neurons, which show dynamics closely resembling different coding directions (fig. 2) and the decoders do not have weights that can distinguish them from the rest of the population in each of these analyses (fig. S7). Is it fair to interpret these findings as evidence for broad decision-related co-variability in the recorded neural population in LIP?

      Yes, our results are consistent with this interpretation. However, it is worth reiterating that decoding performance drops considerably when Tin neurons are not included (see Supplementary Figure S13). Thus, this broad decision-related co-variability is present but weak.

      𝑅∗1.7 It is intriguing that the decoding weights of the different decoders did not allow the authors to reliably identify Tin neurons. Could this be, in part, due to the low dimensionality of the population activity and task that the animals are presumably overtrained on? Or do the authors expect this finding to hold up if the population activity and task were higher dimensional?

      Great question! We can only speculate, but it seems possible that a more complex, “higher dimensional” task could make it easier to identify Tin neurons. For example, a task with four choices instead of two may decrease correlations among groups of neurons with different response fields. We have added this caveat to the discussion (lines 459-–461). One minor semantic objection: The animal has learned to perform a highly contrived task at low signal-to-noise. The animal is well-trained, not over-trained.

      𝑅∗1.8 Lines 135-137 [Au: now 141–142]: The similarity in the single trial traces from different coding strategies (fig. 2a-2c, left) is not as evident to me as the authors suggest. It might be worthwhile computing the correlation coefficients between individual traces for each pair of strategies and reporting the mean correlation to support the author’s point.

      We report the mean correlation between single-trial signals generated by the chosen dimensionality reduction methods in Figure 4e. We show the variability in this measure in Supplementary Figure S8. We have also adjusted the opacity of the single-trial traces in Figure 2, left.

      𝑅∗1.9 Minor/typos:

      -line 74: consider additionally citing Hyafil et al. 2023.

      -line 588: ”that were strongly correlated”?

      -line 615: ”were the actual drift-diffusion process were...”.

      -line 717: ”a causal influence” -> ”no causal influence”.

      Fig. 6: panel labels e vs d are swapped between the figure and caption.

      Fig. 3c: labels r1,3 & r2,3 are flipped.

      We have addressed all of these items. Thank you.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      𝑅∗2.1 (Figure 2) Determine whether restricting the analysis to 1D projections of the data is a suitable approach given the actual dimensionality of the datasets being analyzed:

      - Should show some quantification of the dimensionality of the recorded activity; could do this by quantifying the dimensionality of population activity in each session, e.g. with participation ratio or related measures (like # PCs to explain some high proportion of the variance, e.g. 90 %). If much of the variation is not described in 1 dimension, then the paper would benefit from some discussion/analysis of the signals that occupy the other dimensions.

      We now report the participation ratio (4.4 ± 0.4, mean ±s.e. across sessions), and we state that the first 3 PCs explain 67.1 ± 3.1% of the variance of the time- and coherence-dependent signals used for the PCA (mean ±s.e). We agree that the 1D projections may elide meaningful features of LIP population activity. Indeed, we make this point through our analysis of the Min neurons. To reiterate our response above, we do not claim that the 1D projections explain all of the meaningful features of LIP population activity. They do, however, reveal the decision variable, which is our main focus. These 1D signals contain features that correlate with events in the superior colliculus, summarized in Stine et al. (2023), attesting to their biological relevance.

      The Reviewer is correct that our approach presupposes a linear embedding of the 1D decision variable inthepopulationactivity. Inotherwords, anonlinearrepresentationofthe1Ddecisionvariableinpopulation activity could have an embedding dimensionality greater than 1, and there may well be a non-linear method that reveals this representation. To test this possibility, we decoded choice on each trial from population activity using (1) a linear decoder (logistic classifier) or (2) a multi-layer neural network, which can exploit non-linearities. We found that, for each session, the two decoders performed similarly: the neural network outperforms the logistic decoder (barely) in just one session. The analysis suggests that the assumption of linear embedding of the decision variable is justified. We hope this analysis convinces the reviewer that “sophisticated analyses of the full neuronal state space” and “a simple average of [Tcon ] neurons” do in indeed yield roughly equivalent representations of the decision variable. We have included the results of this analysis in Supplementary Figure S12. See also item 2 of the Public response.

      𝑅∗2.2 (Figure 3) Add estimates of variability for variance and autocorrelation through time from single-trial signals:

      –   E.g. by bootstrapping. Would be helpful for making rigorous the discussion of when the deviation from the theory is outside what would be expected by chance, even if it doesn’t change the specific conclusions here.

      –   If possible, it would help (by simulations, or maybe an added reference if it exists) to substantiate the claim about the expected sub-linearity at later time-points (Figure 3a) due to the upper stopping bound and limited firing rate range.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful comment. The revised Fig. 3 now contains error bars derived by bootstrapping (see Methods, §Variance and autocorrelation of smoothed diffusion signals). We have also added Supplementary Figure S5, which substantiates the sub-linearity claim using simulations.

      𝑅∗2.3 (Figure 4) Add controls and estimates of variability for decoding across sessions:

      –   As a baseline - what is the level of within-trial correlation/cosine similarity when random coding directions are used?

      –   What is the variability in the estimates of values shown in a/d/e?

      We have addressed each of these items. (1) Figure 4a now shows the s.e.m. of decoding accuracy (across sessions). (2) Regarding the variability of estimates shown in Figure 4d & e, the standard errors are displayed in the new Supplementary Figure S8. It makes sense to show them there because (i) there is no natural way to represent error on the heat maps in Figure 4, and (ii) S8 concerns the comparison of the values in Figure 4d & e to values derived from random coding directions. (3) Random coding directions lead to values of cosine similarity and within-trial correlation that do not differ significantly from zero. We show this in several ways, summarized in our reply to Public Review item 4. Additional details are in the revised manuscript (Methods: Similarity of single-trial signals) and the new Supplementary Figure S8. We also provide this information in response to Recommendation 5, above.

      𝑅∗2.4 (Figure 5) Add negative controls and significance tests to support claims about trends in leverage:

      –   What is the level of increase in leverage attained from random 1D projections of the data, or other projections where the prior would be no leverage?

      –   What is the range of leverage values fit for a simulated signal with a ground-truth of no trend?

      We have added two control analyses. In addition to a shuffle control, which destroys the relationship (Review Figure 1) we performed additional analyses that preserve the correspondence of neural signals and behavior on the same trial. We generated random coding directions (CDs) by establishing weight-vectors that were either chosen from a Normal distribution or by permuting the weights assigned to PC-1 in each session. The latter is the more conservative measure. Projections of the neural responses onto these random coding directions render 𝑆rand(𝑡). Specifically, the degree of leverage is effectively zero or very much reduced. These analyses are summarized in a new Supplementary Figure S10. The distributions of our test statistics (e.g., leverage on choice and RT) under the variants of the null hypothesis also support traditional metrics of statistical significance. Figure S10 (bottom row) also provides an approximate answer to the question: What degree of leverage and mediation would be expected for a theoretical decision variable? Briefly, we simulated 60,000 trials using the race model that best fits the behavioral data of monkey M. For any noise-free representation of a Markovian integration process, the leverage of an early sample of the DV on behavior would be mediated completely by later activity as the latter sample—up to the time of commitment—subsumes all variability captured by the earlier sample. We, therefore, generated 𝑆sim(𝑡) by first subsampling the simulated data to match the trial numbers of each session. To evaluate a DV approximated from the activity of 𝑁 Tconin neurons per session rather than the true DV represented by the entire population, we generated 𝑁 noisy instantiations of the signal for each of the subsampled, simulated trials. The noisy decision variable, 𝑆sim (t) is the mean activity of these 𝑁 noise-corrupted signals. The simulation is consistent with the leverage and incomplete mediation observed for the populations of Tcon neurons. For in additional details, see Methods, §Leverage of single-trial activity on behavior) and Supplementary Figure S10, caption. See also our response to item 1 of the Public Response.

      𝑅∗2.5 The analysis is performed across several signed coherence levels, with data detrended for each signed coherence and choice to enable comparison of fluctuations relative to the relevant baseline; are results similar for the different coherences?

      The results are qualitatively similar for individual coherences. There is less power, of course, because there are fewer trials. The analyses cannot be performed for coherences ≥ 12.8% because there are not enough trials that satisfy the inclusion criteria (presence of left and right choice trials with RT ≤ 670 ms). Nonetheless, leverage on choice and RT is statistically significant for 27 of the 30 combinations of motion strengths < 12.8% × three signals (𝑆ramp, 𝑆PC1 and 𝑆Tin) × behavioral measures (RT and choice) (RT: all 𝑝 < 0.008, Fisher-z; choice: all 𝑝 < 0.05, t-test ). The three exceptions are trials with 6.4% coherence rightward motion, which do not correlate significantly with RT on leftward choice trials. Reviewer Figure 4 shows the results of the leverage and mediation analyses, using only the 0% coherence trials.

      𝑅∗2.6 (Figure 6) Additional analysis to strengthen the claim that Min represents the integrand and not the integral:

      a. Repeating the analysis in Figure 6d with the integral (cumulative sum) of the single-trial Min signals and instead observing a significant increase in leverage over time would be strong evidence for this interpretation. If you again see no increase, then it suggests that the activity of these units (while direction selective) may not be strongly yoked to behavior. This scenario (no increasing leverage of the integral of Min on behavior through time) also raises an intriguing alternative possibility: that the noise driving the ’diffusion’ of drift-diffusion here may originate in the integrating circuit, rather than just reflecting the complete integration of noise in the stream of evidence itself.

      b. Repeating the analysis in Figure 6d with the projection of the M subspace onto its own first PC (e.g. take the union of units {Mrightin, Mleftin} [our ], do PCA just on those units’ single

      trial activities, identify the first PC, and project those activities on that dimension to obtain SPC1-M.

      c. Ameliorating the sample-size limitation by relaxing the criteria for inclusion in Min - performing the same analyses shown, but including all units with visual RFs overlapping the motion stimulus, irrespective of their direction selectivity.

      a. Reviewer Figure 2a provides support for leverage of the integral on choice, and this leverage, like , increases as a function of time. The effect is present in all seven sessions that have both and neurons (all 𝑝 < 1𝑒 − 10). However, as shown in panel b, the same integral fails

      to demonstrate more than a hint of leverage on RT (all correlations are negative) and the magnitude does not vary as a function of time. We suspect—but cannot prove—that this failure arises because of limited power and the expected weak effect. Recall that the mediation analysis of RT is restricted to longer trials and that the correlation between the Min difference and the signal is less than 0.1 over the heatmap in Fig. 6e, implying that the Min difference explains less than 1% of the variance of 𝑆Tin(𝑡). We considered including Reviewer Figure 2 in the paper, but we feel it would be disingenuous (cherrypicking) to report only the positive outcome of the leverage on choice. If the editors feel strongly about it, we would be open to including it, but leaving these analyses out of the revised manuscript seems more consistent with our effort to deëmphasize this finding. In the future, we plan to record simultaneously from populations MT and LIP neurons (Min and Tin, of course) and optimize Min neuron yield by placing the RDM stimulus in the periphery. We also provide this information in response to Recommendation (6) above.

      b.  We tried the R’s suggestion to apply PCA to the union of Min neurons , , fully expecting PC1 to comprise weights of opposite sign for the right and left preferring neurons, but that is not what we observed. Instead, the direction selectivity is distributed over at least two PCs. We think this is a reflection of the prominence of other signals, such as the strong visual response and normalization signals (see Shushruth et al., 2018). In the spirit of the R’s suggestion, we also established an “evidence coding direction” using a regression strategy similar to the Ramp CD applied to the union of Min neurons. The strategy produced a coding direction with opposite signed weights dominating the right and left subsets. The projection of the neural data on this evidence CD yields a signal similar to the difference variable used in Fig. 6e (i.e., signals that are approximately constant firing rates vs time and scale as a function of signed coherence). These unintegrated signals exhibit weak leverage on choice and RT, consistent with Figure 6d. However, the integrated signal has leverage on choice but not RT, similar to the integral of the difference signal in Reviewer Figure 2.

      c.   We do not understand the motivation for this analysis. We could apply PCA or dPCA (or the regression approach, described above) to the population of units with RFs that overlap the motion stimulus, but it is hard to see how this would test the hypothesis that direction-selective neurons similar to those in area MT supply the momentary evidence. As mentioned, we have very few Min neurons (as few as two in session 3). Future experiments that place the motion stimulus in the periphery would likely increase the yield of Min neurons and would be better suited to study this question. As such, we do not see the integrand-like responses of Min neurons as a major claim of the paper. Instead, we view it as an intriguing observation that deserves follow-up in future experiments, including simultaneous recordings from populations of MT and LIP neurons (Min and Tin, of course). We have softened the language considerably to make it clear that future work will be needed to make strong claims about the nature of Min neurons.

      𝑅∗2.7 Other questions: Figure 2c is described as showing the average firing rate of units in Tconin on single trials, but must also incorporate some baseline subtraction (as the shown traces dip into negative firing rates). Whatbaselineissubtracted? Aretheseresidualsignals, asdescribedforlaterfigures, orisadifferent method used? (Presumably, a similar procedure is used also for Figure 2a/b, given that all single-trial traces begin at 0.). Is the baseline subtraction justified? If the dataset really does reflect the decision variable with single-trial resolution, eliminating the baseline subtraction when visualizing single-trial activity might actually help to make the point clearer: trials which (for any reason) begin with a higher projection on the particular direction that furnishes the DV would be predicted to reach the decision bound, at any fixed coherence, more quickly than trials with a smaller projection onto this direction.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. For each trial, the mean activity between 175 ms and 225 ms after motion onset was subtracted when generating the single-trial traces. The baseline subtraction was only applied for visualization to better portray the diffusion component in the signal. Unless otherwise indicated, all analyses are computed on non-baseline corrected data. We now describe in the caption of Figure 2 that “For visualization, single-trial traces were baseline corrected by subtracting the activity in a 50 ms window around 200 ms.” Examples of the raw traces used for all follow-up analyses are displayed in Reviewer Figure 6.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I only have a few comments to make the paper more accessible:

      𝑅∗3.1 I struggle to understand how the linear fitting from -1 to 1 was done. More detail about how the single cell single-trial activity was generated to possibly go from -1 to 1 or do I completely misunderstand the approach? I assume the data standardization does that job?

      We have rephrased and added clarifying detail to the section describing the derivation of the ramp signal in the Methods (Ramp direction).

      We applied linear regression to generate a signal that best approximates a linear ramp, on each trial, 𝑖, that terminates with a saccade to the choice-target contralateral to the hemisphere of the LIP recordings. The ramps are defined in the epoch spanning the decision time: each ramp begins at 𝑓𝑖(𝑡0) = −1, where 𝑡0 \= 0.2 s after motion onset, and ends at 𝑓𝑖(𝑡1) = 1, where 𝑡1 \= 𝑡sac − 0.05 s (i.e., 50 ms before saccade initiation). The ramps are sampled every 25 ms and concatenated using all eligible trials to construct a long saw-tooth function (see Supplementary Figure S2). The regression solves for the weights assigned to each neuron such that the weighted sum of the activity of all neurons best approximates the saw-tooth. We constructed a time series of standardized neural activity, sampled identically to the saw-tooth. The spike times from each neuron are represented as delta functions (rasters) and convolved with a non-causal 25 ms boxcar filter. The mean and standard deviation of all sampled values of activity were used to standardize the activity for each neuron (i.e., Z-transform). The coefficients derived by the regression establish the vector of weights that define 𝑆ramp. The algorithm ensures that the population signal 𝑆ramp(𝑡), but not necessarily individual neurons, have amplitudes ranging from approximately −1 to 1.

      𝑅∗3.2 It is difficult to understand how the urgency signal is derived, to then generate fig S4.

      The urgency signal is estimated by averaging 𝑆𝑥(𝑡) at each time point relative to motion onset, using only the 0% coherence trials. We have clarified this in the caption of Supplementary Figure S4.

      Author response image 1.

      Shuffle control for Fig. 5. Breaking the within-trial correspondence between neural signal, 𝑆(𝑡), and choice suppresses leverage to near zero.

      Author response image 2.

      Leverage of the integrated difference signal on choice and RT. Traces are the average leverage across seven sessions. Same conventions as in Figure 5.

      Author response image 3.

      Trial-averaged 𝑆ramp activity during individual sessions. Same as Figure 2b for individual sessions for Monkey M (left) and Monkey J (right). The figure is intended to illustrate the consistency and heterogeneity of the averaged signals. For example, the saccade-aligned averages lose their association with motion strength before left (contra) choices in sessions 1, 2, 5, and 6 but retain the association in sessions 3, 4, 7, and 8.

      Author response image 4.

      Drift-diffusion signals have measurable leverage on choice and RT even when only 0%-coherence trials are included in the analysis.

      Author response image 5.

      Raw single-trial activity for three types of population averages. Representative single-trial activity during the first 300 ms of evidence accumulation using two motion strengths: 0% and 25.6% coherence toward the left (contralateral) choice target. Unlike in Figure 2 in the paper, single-trial traces are not baseline corrected by subtracting the activity in a 50 ms window around 200 ms. We highlight a number of trials with thick traces and these are the same trials in each of the rows.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses & incompletely supported claims:

      (1) A central mechanistic claim of the paper is that "DCP1a can regulate DCP2's cellular decapping activity by enhancing DCP2's affinity to RNA, in addition to bridging the interactions of DCP2 with other decapping factors. This represents a pivotal molecular mechanism by which DCP1a exerts its regulatory control over the mRNA decapping process." Similar versions of this claim are repeated in the abstract and discussion sections. However, this appears to be entirely at odds with the observation from in vitro decapping assays with immunoprecipitated DCP2 that showed DCP1 knockout does not significantly affect the enzymatic activity of DCP2 (Figures 2B-D; I note that there may be a very small change in DCP2 activity shown in panel C, but this may be due to slightly different amounts of immunoprecipitated DCP2 used in the assay, as suggested by panel D). If DCP1 pivotally regulates decapping activity by enhancing RNA binding to DCP2, why is no difference in decapping activity observed in the absence of DCP1?

      Furthermore, the authors show only weak changes in relative RNA levels immunoprecipitated by DCP2 with versus without DCP1 (~2-3 fold change; consistent with the Valkov 2016 NSMB paper, which shows what looks like only modest changes in RNA binding affinity for yeast Dcp2 +/- Dcp1). Is the argument that only a 2-3 fold change in RNA binding affinity is responsible for the sizable decapping defects and significant accumulation of deadenylated intermediates observed in cells upon Dcp1 depletion? (and if so, why is this the case for in-cell data, but not the immunoprecipitated in vitro data?)

      We appreciate the reviewer's thoughtful comments on our paper. The reviewer points out an apparent contradiction between the claim that DCP1a regulates DCP2's cellular decapping activity and the observation that knocking out DCP1a does not significantly affect DCP2's enzymatic activity in vitro. However, it is important to underscore the challenge of reconciling differences between in vitro and in vivo experiments in scientific research. Although in vitro systems provide a controlled environment, they have inherent limitations that often fail to capture the complexities of cellular processes. Our in vitro experiments used immunoprecipitated proteins to ensure the presence of relevant factors, but these experiments cannot fully replicate the precise stoichiometry and dynamic interactions present in a cellular environment. Furthermore, the limited volume in vitro can actually facilitate reactions that may not occur as readily in the complex and heterogeneous environment of a cell. Therefore, the lack of a significant difference in decapping activity observed in vitro does not necessarily negate the regulatory role of DCP1 in the cellular context. Rather, it underscores our previous oversight of DCP1's importance in the decapping process under in vitro conditions. The conclusions regarding DCP1's regulatory mechanisms remain valid and supported by the presented evidence, especially when considering the inherent differences between in vitro and in vivo experimental conditions. It is precisely because of these differences that we recognized our previous underestimation of DCP1's significance. Therefore, our subsequent experiments focused on elucidating DCP1's regulatory mechanisms in the decapping process

      The authors acknowledge this apparent discrepancy between the in vitro DCP2 decapping assays and in-cell decapping data, writing: "this observation could be attributed to the inherent constraints of in vitro assays, which often fall short of faithfully replicating the complexity of the cellular environment where multiple factors and cofactors are at play. To determine the underlying cause, we postulated that the observed cellular decapping defect in DCP1a/b knockout cells might be attributed to DCP1 functioning as a scaffold." This is fair. They next show that DCP1 acts as a scaffold to recruit multiple factors to DCP2 in cells (EDC3, DDX6, PatL1, and PNRC1 and 2). However, while DCP1 is shown to recruit multiple cofactors to DCP2 (consistent with other studies in the decapping field, and primarily through motifs in the Dcp1 C-terminal tail), the authors ultimately show that *none* of these cofactors are actually essential for DCP2-mediated decapping in cells (Figures 3A-F). More specifically, the authors showed that the EVH1 domain was sufficient to rescue decapping defects in DCP1a/b knockout cells, that PNRC1 and PNRC2 were the only cofactors that interact with the EVH1 domain, and finally that shRNA-mediated PNRC1 or PNCR2 knockdown has no effect on in-cell decapping (Figures 3E and F). Therefore, based on the presented data, while DCP1 certainly does act as a scaffold, it doesn't seem to be the case that the major cellular decapping defect observed in DCP1a/b knockout is due to DCP1's ability to recruit specific cofactors to DCP2.

      The findings that none of the decapping cofactors recruited by DCP1 to DCP2 are essential for decapping in cells further underscore the complexity of the decapping process in vivo. This observation suggests that while DCP1's scaffolding function is crucial for recruiting cofactors, the decapping process likely involves additional layers of regulation that are not fully captured by our current understanding of DCP1. Furthermore, the reviewer mentions that the observed changes in RNA binding affinity (approximately 2-3 fold) in our in vitro experiments seem relatively modest. While these changes may appear insignificant in vitro, their cumulative impact in the dynamic cellular environment could be substantial. Even minor perturbations in RNA binding affinity can trigger cascading effects, leading to significant changes in decapping activity and the accumulation of deadenylated intermediates upon Dcp1 depletion. Cellular processes involve complex networks of interrelated events, and small molecular changes can result in amplified biological outcomes. The subtle molecular variations observed in vitro may translate into significant phenotypic outcomes within the complex cellular environment, underscoring the importance of DCP1a's regulatory role in the cellular decapping process.

      So as far as I can tell, the discrepancy between the in vitro (DCP1 not required) and in-cell (DCP1 required) decapping data, remains entirely unresolved. Therefore, I don't think that the conclusions that DCP1 regulates decapping by (a) changing RNA binding affinity (authors show this doesn't matter in vitro, and that the change in RNA binding affinity is very small) or (b) by bridging interactions of cofactors with DCP2 (authors show all tested cofactors are dispensable for robust in-cell decapping activity), are supported by the evidence presented in the paper (or convincingly supported by previous structural and functional studies of the decapping complex).

      We have addressed the reconciliation of differences between in vitro and in vivo experiments in the revised manuscript and emphasized the importance of considering cellular interactions when interpreting our findings.

      (2) Related to the RNA binding claims mentioned above, are the differences shown in Figure 3H statistically significant? Why are there no error bars shown for the MBP control? (I understand this was normalized to 1, but presumably, there were 3 biological replicates here that have some spread of values?). The individual data points for each replicate should be displayed for each bar so that readers can better assess the spread of data and the significance of the observed differences. I've listed these points as major because of the key mechanistic claim that DCP1 enhances RNA binding to DCP2 hinges in large part on this data.

      Thank you for your feedback. Regarding your comments on the statistical significance of the differences shown in Figure 3H and the absence of error bars for the MBP control, we will address these concerns in the revised manuscript. We’ll include individual data points for the three biological replicates and corresponding statistical analysis to more clearly demonstrate the data spread and significance of the observed differences.

      (3) Also related to point (1) above, the kinetic analysis presented in Figure 2C shows that the large majority of transcript is mostly decapped at the first 5-minute timepoint; it may be that DCP2-mediated decapping activity is actually different in vitro with or without DCP1, but that this is being missed because the reaction is basically done in less than 5 minutes under the conditions being assayed (i.e. these are basically endpoint assays under these conditions). It may be that if kinetics were done under conditions to slow down the reaction somewhat (e.g. lower Dcp2 concentration, lower temperatures), so that more of the kinetic behavior is captured, the apparent discrepancy between in vitro and in-cell data would be much less. Indeed, previous studies have shown that in yeast, Dcp1 strongly activates the catalytic step (kcat) of decapping by ~10-fold, and reduces the KM by only ~2 fold (Floor et al, NSMB 2010). It might be beneficial to use purified proteins here (only a Western blot is used in Figure 2D to show the presence of DCP2 and/or DCP1, but do these complexes have other, and different, components immunoprecipitated along with them?), if possible, to better control reaction conditions.

      This contradiction between the in vitro and in-cell decapping data undercuts one of the main mechanistic takeaways from the first half of the paper. This needs to be addressed/resolved with further experiments to better define the role of DCP1-mediated activation, or the mechanistic conclusions significantly changed or removed.

      We genuinely appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments on the kinetic analysis presented in Figure 2C. Your astute observation regarding the potential influence of reaction duration on the interpretation of in vitro decapping activity, especially in the absence of DCP1, is well-received. The time-sensitive nature of our experiments, as you rightly pointed out, might not fully capture the nuanced kinetic behaviors. In addition, the DCP2 complex purified from cells could not be precisely quantified. In response to your suggestion, we attempted to purify human DCP2 protein from E. coli; however, regrettably, the purified protein failed to exhibit any enzymatic activity. This disparity may be attributed to species differences.

      Considering the reviewer’s valuable insights, our revised manuscript emphasized that purified DCP2 from cells exhibits activity regardless of the presence of DCP1. This adjustment aims to provide a clearer perspective on our findings and to better align with the nuances of our experimental design and the meticulous consideration of the results.

      (4) The second half of the paper compares the transcriptomic and metabolic profiles of DCP1a versus DCP1b knockouts to reveal that these target a different subset of mRNAs for degradation and have different levels of cellular metabolites. This is a great application of the DCP1a/b KO cells developed in this paper and provides new information about DCP1a vs b function in metazoans, which to my knowledge has not really been explored at all. However, the analysis of DCP1 function/expression levels in human cancer seems superficial and inconclusive: for example, the authors conclude that "...these findings indicate that DCP1a and DCP1b likely have distinct and non-redundant roles in the development and progression of cancer", but what is the evidence for this? I see that DCP1a and b levels vary in different cancer cell types, but is there any evidence that these changes are actually linked to cancer development, progression, or tumorigenesis? If not, these broader conclusions should be removed.

      Thank you to the reviewer for pointing out that such a description may be misleading. We have removed our previous broader conclusion and revised our sentences. To further explore the potential impact of DCP1a and DCP1b on cancer progression, we examined the association between the expression levels of DCP1a and DCP1b and progression-free interval (PFI). We have incorporated this information into our revised manuscript.

      (5) The authors used CRISPR-Cas9 to introduce frameshift mutations that result in premature termination codons in DCP1a/b knockout cells (verified by Sanger sequencing). They then use Western blotting with DCP1a or DCP1b antibodies to confirm the absence of DCP1 in the knockout cell lines. However, the DCP1a antibody used in this study (Sigma D5444) is targeted to the C-terminal end of DCP1a. Can the authors conclusively rule out that the CRISPR/Cas-generated mutations do not result in the production of truncated DCP1a that is just unable to be detected by the C-terminally targeted antibody? While it is likely the introduced premature termination codon in the DCP1a gene results in nonsense-mediated decay of the resulting transcript, this outcome is indeed supported by the knockout results showing large defects in cellular decapping which can be rescued by the addition of the EVH1 domain, it would be better to carefully validate the success of the DCP1a knockout and conclusively show no truncated DCP1a is produced by using N-terminally targeted DCP1a antibodies (as was the case for DCP1b).

      Thank you for your insightful comment regarding the validation of our DCP1a/b knockout cell line. We acknowledge your point about the DCP1a C-terminal targeting of the Sigma D5444 antibody used in our Western blot analysis. We agree that we cannot definitively rule out the possibility of truncated DCP1a protein production solely based on the lack of full-length protein detection. To address this limitation, we utilized a commercial information available N-terminally targeted DCP1a antibody (aviva ARP39353_T100) in a Western blot analysis. This will allow us to comprehensively detect any truncated protein fragments remaining after the CRISPR-Cas9-generated frameshift mutation.

      Some additional minor comments:

      • More information would be helpful on the choice of DCP1 truncation boundaries; why was 1-254 chosen as one of the truncations?

      Thank you for the reviewer's comment and suggestion. Regarding the choice of DCP1 1-254 truncation boundaries based on the predicted structure from AlphaFoldDB (A0A087WT55). We will include this information in the revised manuscript.

      • Figure S2D is a pretty important experiment because it suggests that the observed deadenylated intermediates are in fact still capped; can a positive control be added to these experiments to show that removal of cap results in rapid terminator-mediated degradation?

      Unfortunately, due to our institution's current laboratory safety policies, we are unable to perform experiments involving the use of radioactive isotopes such as 32P. Therefore, while adding the suggested positive control experiment to demonstrate rapid RNA degradation upon decapping would further validate our interpretation, we regret that we cannot carry out this experiment at the moment. However, the observed deadenylated intermediates in Figure S2D match the predicted size of capped RNA fragments, and not the expected sizes of degradation products after decapping. Furthermore, previous literature has well-established that for these types of RNAs, decapping leads directly to rapid 5' to 3' exonuclease-mediated degradation, without producing stable deadenylated intermediates. Thus, we believe that the current data is sufficient to support our conclusion that the deadenylated intermediates retain the 5' cap structure.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses:

      The direct targets of DCP1a and/or DCP1b were not determined as the analysis was restricted to RNA-seq to assess RNA abundance, which can be a result of direct or indirect regulation by DCP1a/b.

      Thank you for raising this important point. In our study, we acknowledge that the use of RNA-seq to assess RNA abundance provides a broad overview of the regulatory impacts of DCP1a and DCP1b. This method captures changes in RNA levels that may arise from both direct and indirect regulatory actions of these proteins. While we did not directly determine the targets of DCP1a and DCP1b, the data obtained from our RNA-seq analysis serve as a foundational step for future targeted experiments, which could include techniques such as RIP-seq, to delineate the direct targets of DCP1a and DCP1b more precisely. We believe that our current findings contribute valuable information to the field and pave the way for these subsequent analyses.

      P-bodies appear to be larger in human cells lacking DCP1a and DCP1b but a lack of image quantification prevents this conclusion from being drawn.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s valuable feedback. We have addressed the reviewer’s concern regarding P-bodies' size in human cells lacking DCP1a and DCP1b. We have now performed image quantification and can confirm that P-bodies are indeed larger in these cells.

      The lack of details in the methodology and figure legends limit reader understanding.

      We acknowledge the reviewer's concerns regarding the level of detail provided in the methodology and figure legends. To address this, we are committed to enhancing both sections with additional details and clarifications in our revised manuscript. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) To me, the second half of the paper comparing DCP1a and DCP1b is in many ways distinct from the first half and could stand on its own as an interesting paper if this comparative analysis is explored a little deeper (maybe by validating some of the differences in decay observed for individual mRNAs targeted by DCP1a versus DCP1b, by measuring and comparing the decay rates of some individual transcripts under differential control by DCP1a vs b?), and revising the conclusions about links to cancer as mentioned above. I think these later comparative results in the paper present the most new and interesting data concerning DCP1 function in humans (especially since I think the mechanistic conclusions from the first half aren't well supported yet or are at least inconsistent), but when I read these later sections of the paper I struggle to understand the key takeaways from the transcriptomic and metabolomic data.

      Thank you for the reviewer's suggestions. Estimating the decay rates of individual transcripts within the transcriptomes of DCP1a_KO, DCP1b_KO, and wild type can provide insight into the direct targets of DCP1a or DCP1b. However, this requires either time-series RNA-seq or specialized sequencing technologies such as Precision Run-On sequencing (PRO-seq) or RNA Approach to Equilibrium Sequencing (RATE-Seq). Unfortunately, we lack the necessary dataset in our project to estimate the decay rates for the potential targets identified in our RNA-seq data. Despite this limitation, we acknowledge the potential of this approach in identifying the true targets of DCP1a and DCP1b and have included this idea in our discussion.

      (2) I think it would be helpful to add a little more descriptive or narrative language to the figure legends (I know some of them are already quite long!) so that readers can follow the general idea of the experiment through the figure legend as well as the main text; as written, the figure legends are mostly exclusively technical details, so it can be hard to parse what experiment is being carried out in some cases.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s suggestion, we will strive to improve the language of the figure legends to include technical details while clearly conveying the main idea of the experiment. We will ensure that the language of the figure legends is more readable and comprehensible so that readers can more easily parse what experiment is being carried out.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Suggestions for improved or additional experiments, data, or analyses:

      The use of RNA-seq to measure RNA abundance in DCP1a and/or b knockout cells can give some insight into both the indirect and direct effects of DCP1a/b on gene expression but cannot identify the direct targets of these genes. Rather, global analysis of RNA stability or capturing uncapped RNA decay intermediates would allow the authors to conclude they have identified direct targets of DCP1a and/or b. Without such analyses, the interpretation of these data should be scaled back to clearly state that RNA levels can be altered through indirect effects of DCP1a/b absence throughout the text.

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion. We have modified our sentences to emphasize that the dysregulated genes could be caused by both direct and indirect effects.

      A control/randomly generated gene list should be analyzed for GO terms to determine whether the enrichment of cancer-related pathways in the differentially expressed genes in the DCP1a/b knockout cells is meaningful.

      Thank you for the reviewer's comment. We shuffled our gene list and reperformed the pathway enrichment analysis in Figure 4C and 4D 1,000 times. We focused on the following cancer-related pathways: E2F targets, MTORC1 signaling, G2M checkpoint, MYC target V1, EMT transition, KRAS signaling DN, P53 pathway, and NOTCH signaling pathways. We then calculated how many times the q-values obtained from the shuffled gene list were more significant than the q-value obtained from our real data. In four of the eight pathways (E2F targets, MTORC1 signaling, G2M checkpoint, and MYC target v1), none of the shuffled gene lists resulted in a q-value smaller than the real one. In the other four pathways (EMT transition, KRAS signaling DN, P53 pathway, and NOTCH signaling pathways), the q-values were smaller than the real q-value 2, 11, 4, and 4 times out of the 1000 shuffles. Based on the shuffled results, we conclude that the transcriptome of DCP1a/b knockout cells is statistically enriched in these cancer-related pathways.

      Author response image 1.

      Distribution of q-values resulting from the Gene Set Enrichment Analysis (GSEA) conducted on 1,000 shuffled gene lists for eight cancer-related pathways. The q-values derived from Figure 4C and 4D are indicated by red (DCP1a_KO) and blue (DCP1b_KO) dashed lines, respectively. Some q-values derived from Figure 4C are too small to be labeled on the plots, such as in E2F targets (q value: 5.87E-07), MTORC1 signaling (q values: 6.59E-07 and 1.58E-06 for DCP1a_KO and DCP1b_KO, respectively), MYC target V1 (q value: 0.004644174 for DCP1a_KO), etc. The numbers x/1000 indicate how often the shuffled q-values were smaller than the real q-value out of 1,000 permutations.

      Comparisons of the DCP1a and/or b knockout RNA-seq results should be done to published datasets such as those published by Luo et al., Cell Chemical Biology (2021) to determine whether there are common targets with DCP2 and validate the reported findings.

      Thank you for reviewer’s suggestion. We compared the upregulated genes from DCP1a_KO, DCP1b_KO, and DCP1a/b_KO cell lines with the 91 targets of DPC2 identified by Luo et al. in Cell Chemical Biology (2021). Only EPPK1 was found to be overlapped between the potential DCP1b_KO targets and the targets of DCP2. No genes were found to be overlapped between the potential DCP1a_KO targets and the targets of DCP2. However, three genes, TES, PAX6, and C18orf21, were found to be overlapped between the significantly upregulated DEGs of DCP1a/b_KO and the targets of DCP2. We have included this information in the discussion section.

      The RNA tethering assays are not clear and are difficult to interpret without further controls to delineate the polyadenylated and deadenylated species.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s feedback. We acknowledge that the reviewer might harbor some doubts regarding the outcomes of the RNA tethering assays. Nonetheless, this methodology is well-established and has also found extensive application across many studies. We are committed to enhancing the clarity of our experiment’s details and results within the figure legends and textual descriptions.

      The representative images of p-bodies clearly show that DCP1a/b KO cells have larger p-bodies than the wild-type cells. The authors should quantify p-body size in each image set as the current interpretation of the data is that there is no difference in size or number of p-bodies, but the data suggest otherwise.

      Thank you very much for the reviewer’s insightful comments and for drawing our attention to the need to quantify p-body sizes in DCP1a/b KO and wild-type cells. We agree with the reviewer’s assessment that the representative images suggest a difference in p-body size between DCP1a/b KO cells and wild-type cells, which we initially overlooked. We will revise our manuscript accordingly to include these findings, ensuring that our interpretation of the data aligns with the observed differences.

      Statistical analysis of the Figure 2C results should be included because the difference between the wild-type and Dco1a/b KO cells with GFP-DCP2 looks significantly different but is interpreted in the text as not significant.

      Thank you for pointing out the need for a statistical analysis of the results shown in Figure 2C. We acknowledge that the visual difference between the wild-type and Dco1a/b KO cells with GFP-DCP2 suggests a significant variation, which may not have been clearly communicated in our text. We will conduct the necessary statistical analysis to substantiate the observations made in Figure 2C. Furthermore, we would like to emphasize that our primary focus was to demonstrate that purified DCP2 within cells retains its activity even in the absence of DCP1. This critical point will be highlighted and clarified in the revised version of our manuscript to prevent any misunderstanding.

      Recommendations for improving the writing and presentation:

      Additional context including what is known about the role of dcp1 in decapping from the decades of work in yeast and other model organisms should be incorporated into the introduction and discussion sections.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s suggestion. We will incorporate additional context about the function and significance of DCP1 in decapping processes within our revised manuscript's introduction and discussion sections.

      Details should be provided within the figure legends and methods section on experimental approaches and the number of replicates and statistical analyses used throughout the manuscript. For example, it is not clear whether western blots or RNA-IP experiments were performed more than once as representative images are shown.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s suggestion. In the figure legends and methods section, we will provide more details about the experimental methods, number of replicates, and statistical analyses. Regarding the Western blots and RNA-IP experiments the reviewer mentioned, we performed multiple experiments and presented representative images in the manuscript. We will clarify this in the revised manuscript to eliminate potential confusion.

      The rationale for performing metabolic profiling is not clear.

      We appreciate the reviewer's thoughtful feedback. The rationale behind conducting metabolic profiling in our study is rooted in its efficacy as a valuable tool for deciphering the consequences of specific gene mutations, particularly those closely associated with phenotypic changes or final metabolic pathways. Our objective is to utilize metabolic profiling to unravel the distinct biofunctions of DCP1a and DCP1b. By employing this approach, we aim to gain insights into the intricate metabolic alterations that result from the absence of these genes, thereby enhancing our understanding of their roles in cellular processes. We recognize the necessity of clearly presenting this rationale and promise to bolster the articulation of these points in the revised version of our manuscript to ensure the clarity and transparency of our research motivation.

      Details in the methods section should be included for the CRISPR/Cas9-mediated gene editing validation. The Sangar sequencing results presented in Figure S1b should be explained. The entire western blot(s) should be shown in Figure S1A to give confidence the Dcp1a/b KO cells are not expressing truncated proteins and the epitopes of the antibodies used to detect Dcp1a/b should be described. The northern blot probes should be described and sequences included. The transcriptomics method should be detailed.

      Thank you for your feedback, in the revised manuscript we will detail the CRISPR/Cas9 gene editing validation, explain the Sanger sequencing results in Figure S1b, show the full Western blot in Figure S1A to confirm that the Dcp1a/b knockout cells are not expressing truncated proteins, describe the Northern blot probes used, and detail the transcriptomics method, all to ensure clarity and comprehensiveness in our experimental procedures and results.

      A diagram showing the RNA tethering assays with labels corresponding to all blots/gels should be provided.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We will provide a diagram showing the RNA tethering assays with labels corresponding to all blots/gels in our revised manuscript. This will help readers better understand our experimental design and results.

      The statement, "This suggests that the disruption of the decapping process in DCP1a/b-knockout cells results in the accumulation of unprocessed mRNA intermediates" regarding the results of the RNA-seq assay is not supported by the evidence as RNA-seq does not measure RNA decay intermediates or RNA decay rates.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We agree with that RNA-seq experiments indeed do not directly measure RNA decay intermediates or RNA decay rates. Our statement could have caused confusion, and we have therefore removed this sentence from the manuscript.

      Minor corrections to the text and figures:

      Figure S6A is uninterpretable as presented.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s valuable feedback. We have taken note and made improvements. We have simplified Figure S6A to enhance its interpretability, hoping that the current version will make it easier for the readers to understand.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Original comment: There is no explanation for how this work could be a breakthrough in simulation gregarious feeding as is stated in the manuscript.

      Reviewer response: I think I understand where the authors are trying to take this next step. If the authors were to follow up on this study with the proposed implementation of inhalant/exhalent velocities profiles (or more preferably velocity/pressure fields), then that study would be a breakthrough in simulating such gregarious feeding. Based on what has been done within the present study, I think the term "breakthrough" is instead overly emphatic. An additional note on this. The authors are correct that incorporating additional models could be used to simulation a population (as has been successfully done for several Ediacaran taxa despite computational limitations), but it's not the only way. The authors 1 might explore using periodic boundary conditions on the external faces of the flow domain. This could require only a single Olivooid model to assess gregarious impacts - see the abundant literature of modeling flow through solar array fields.

      We appreciate the reviewer 1 for the suggestion. Modeling gregarious feeding via periodic boundary conditions is surely a practical way with limited computational resources. Modeling flow through solar array fields can also be an inspiring case. However, to realism the simulation of gregarious feeding behavior on an uneven seabed and with irregular organism spatial distribution, just using periodic boundary conditions may not be sufficient (see Author response image 1 for a simple example). We will go on exploring the way of realizing the simulations of large-scale gregarious feeding.

      Author response image 1.

      An example of modeling gregarious feeding behavior on an uneven seabed.

      Original comment: The claim that olivooid-type feeding was most likely a prerequisite transitional form to jet-propelled swimming needs much more support or needs to be tailored to olivooids. This suggests that such behavior is absent (or must be convergent) before olivooids, which is at odds with the increasing quantities of pelagic life (whose modes of swimming are admittedly unconstrained) documented from Cambrian and Neoproterozoic deposits. Even among just medusozoans, ancestral 1 state reconstruction suggests that they would have been swimming during the Neoproterozoic (Kayal et al., 2018; BMC Evolutionary Biology) with no knowledge of the mechanics due to absent preservation. Author response: Thanks for your suggestions. Yes, we agree with you that the ancestral swimming medusae may appear before the early Cambrian, even at the Neoproterozoic deposits. However, discussions on the affinities of Ediacaran cnidarians are severely limited because of the lack of information concerning their soft anatomy. So, it is hard to detect the mechanics due to absent preservation. Olivooids found from the basal Cambrian Kuanchuanpu Formation can be reasonably considered as cnidarians based on their radial symmetry, external features, and especially the internal anatomies (Bengtson and Yue 1997; Dong et al. 2013; 2016; Han et al. 2013; 2016; Liu et al. 2014; Wang et al. 2017; 2020; 2022). The valid simulation experiment here was based on the soft tissue preserved in olivooids.

      Reviewer response: This response does not sufficiently address my earlier comment. While the authors are correct that individual Ediacaran affinities are an area of active research and that Olivooids can reasonably be considered cnidarians, this doesn't address the actual critique in my comment. Most (not all) Ediacaran soft-bodied fossils are considered to have been benthic, but pelagic cnidarian life is widely acknowledged to at least be present during later White Sea and Nama assemblages (and earlier depending on molecular clock interpretations). The authors have certainly provided support for the mechanics of this type of feeding being co-opted for eventual jet propulsion swimming in Olivooids. They have not provided sufficient justifications within the manuscript for this to be broadened beyond this group.

      Thanks for your sincere commentary. We of course agree with the possibility of the emergence of swimming cnidarians before the lowermost Cambrian Fortunian Stage. See lines 16-129: “Ediacaran fossil assemblages with complex ecosystems consist of exceptionally preserved soft-bodied eukaryotes of enigmatic morphology, which their affinities are mostly unresolved (Tarhan et al., 2018, Integrative and Comparative Biology, 58 (4), 688–702; Evans et al., 2022, PNAS, 11(46), e220747511).” Undoubtedly Olivooids belong to cnidarians charactered by their external and internal biological structures. Limited by the fossil records, we could only speculate on the transition from the benthic to the swimming of ancestral cnidarians via the valid fossil preservation, e.g. olivooids. The transition may require processes such as increasing body size, thickening the mesoglea, and degenerating the periderm, etc. And these processes may also evolve independently or comprehensively. Moreover, the ecological behaviors of the ancestral cnidarians may evolve independently at different stages from Ediacaran to Cambrian. We therefore could not provide more sufficient justifications beyond olivooids.

      Original comment: L446: two layers of hexahedral elements is a very low number for meshing boundary layer flow

      Reviewer response: As the authors point out in the main text, these organisms are small (millimeters in scale) and certainly lived within the boundary layer range of the ocean. While the boundary layer is not the main point, it still needs to be accurately resolved as it should certainly affect the flow further towards the far field at this scale. I'm not suggesting the authors need to perfectly resolve the boundary layer or focus on using turbulence models more tailored to boundary layer flows (such as k-w), but the flow field still needs sufficient realism for a boundary bounded flow. The authors really should consider quantitatively assessing the number of hexahedral elements within their mesh refinement study.

      To address this concern, we run another four simulations based on mesh4 within our mesh refinement study to assess the number of hexahedral elements (five layers and eight layers of hexahedral elements with different thickness of boundary layer mesh (controlled by thickness adjustment factor), respectively). the results had been supplemented to Table supplement 2. As shown in the results, the number of layers of hexahedral elements seems does not significant influence the result, but the thickness of boundary layer mesh can influence the maximum flow velocity of the contraction phase. However, the results of all the simulations were generally consistent, as shown in Author response image 2. The description of the results above were added to section “Mesh sensitivity analysis”.

      Author response image 2.

      Results of mesh refinement study of different boundary layer mesh parameters.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper explores how diverse forms of inhibition impact firing rates in models for cortical circuits. In particular, the paper studies how the network operating point affects the balance of direct inhibition from SOM inhibitory neurons to pyramidal cells, and disinhibition from SOM inhibitory input to PV inhibitory neurons. This is an important issue as these two inhibitory pathways have largely been studies in isolation. Support for the main conclusions is generally solid, but could be strengthened by additional analyses.

      Strengths

      The paper has improved in revision, and the new intuitive summary statements added to the end of each results section are quite helpful. Weaknesses

      The concern about whether the results hold outside of the range in which neural responses are linear remains. This is particularly true given the discontinuity observed in the stability measure. I appreciate the concern (provided in the response to the first round of reviews) that studying nonlinear networks requires a lot of work. A more limited undertaking would be to test the behavior of a spiking network at a few key points identified by your linearization approach. Such tests could use relatively simple (and perhaps imperfect) measures of gain and stability. This could substantially enhance the paper, regardless of the outcome.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern and in our resubmission we explore if networks dynamics that operate outside of the case where linearization is possible would continue to show our main result on the (dis)entanglement of stability and gain; the short answer is yes. To this end we have added a new section and Figure to our main text.

      “Gain and stability in stochastically forced E – PV – SOM circuits

      To confirm that our results do not depend on our approach of a linearization around a fixed point, we numerically simulate similar networks as shown above (Figure 2) in which the E and PV population receive slow varying, large amplitude noise (Figure 6A). This leads to noisy rate dynamics sampling a large subspace of the full firing rate grid (r<sub>E</sub>,r<sub>P</sub>) and thus any linearization would fail to describe the network response. In this stochastically forced network we explore how adding an SOM modulation or a stimulus affects this subspace (Figure 6B). To quantify stability without linearization, we assume that a network is more stable the lower the mean and variance of E rates. This is because very stable networks can better quench input fluctuations [Kanashiro et al., 2017; Hennequin et al., 2018]. To quantify gain, we calculate the change in E rates when adding the stimulus, yet having identical noise realizations for stimulated and non-stimulated networks (Methods).

      For the disinhibitory network without feedback a positive SOM modulation decreases stability due to increases of the mean and variance of E rates (Figure 6Ci) while the network gain increases (Figure 6Cii). As seen before (Figure 2A,B), stability and gain change in opposite directions in a disinhibitory circuit without feedback. Adding feedback PV → SOM and applying a negative SOM modulation increases both, stability and gain and therefore disentangles the inverse relation also in a noisy circuit (Figure 6D-F). This gives numerical support that our results do not depend on the assumption of linearization.

      “Methods: Noisy input and numerical measurement of stability and gain

      We consider a temporally smoothed input process ξ<sub>X</sub> with white noise ζ (zero mean, standard deviation one): for populations X ∈{E,P} with timescale τ<sub>ξ</sub> = 50ms, σ<sub>X</sub> \= 6 and fixed mean input IX. To quantify the stability of the network without linearization, we assume that a network is more stable if the mean and variance of excitatory rates are low. To quantify network gain, we freeze the white noise process ζ for the case of with and without stimulus presentation and calculate the difference of E rates at each time point, leading to a distribution of network gains (Figure 6Cii,Fii). Total simulation time is 1000 seconds.”

      We decided against using a spiking network because sufficiently asynchronous spiking network dynamics can still obey a linearized mean field theory (if the fluctuations in population firing rates are small). In our new analysis the firing rate deviations from the time averaged firing rate are sizable, making a linearization ineffective.

      In summary, based on our additional analysis of recurrent circuits with noisy inputs we conclude that our results also hold in fluctuating networks, without the need of assuming realization aroud a stable fixed point.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Bos and colleagues address the important question of how two major inhibitory interneuron classes in the neocortex differentially affect cortical dynamics. They address this question by studying Wilson-Cowan-type mathematical models. Using a linearized fixed point approach, they provide convincing evidence that the existence of multiple interneuron classes can explain the counterintuitive finding that inhibitory modulation can increase the gain of the excitatory cell population while also increasing the stability of the circuit’s state to minor perturbations. This effect depends on the connection strengths within their circuit model, providing valuable guidance as to when and why it arises.

      Overall, I find this study to have substantial merit. I have some suggestions on how to improve the clarity and completeness of the paper.

      Strengths:

      (1) The thorough investigation of how changes in the connectivity structure affect the gain-stability relationship is a major strength of this work. It provides an opportunity to understand when and why gain and stability will or will not both increase together. It also provides a nice bridge to the experimental literature, where different gain-stability relationships are reported from different studies.

      (2) The simplified and abstracted mathematical model has the benefit of facilitating our understanding of this puzzling phenomenon. (I have some suggestions for how the authors could push this understanding further.) It is not easy to find the right balance between biologically-detailed models vs simple but mathematically tractable ones, and I think the authors struck an excellent balance in this study.

      We thank the reviewer for their support of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The fixed-point analysis has potentially substantial limitations for understanding cortical computations away from the steady-state. I think the authors should have emphasized this limitation more strongly and possibly included some additional analyses to show that their conclusions extend to the chaotic dynamical regimes in which cortical circuits often live.

      In the response to reviewer 1 we have included model analyses that addresses the limitations of linearization. Rather than use a chaotic model, which would require significant effort, we opted for a stochastically forced network, where the sizable fluctuations in rate dynamics preclude linearization.

      (2) The authors could have discussed – even somewhat speculatively – how VIP interneurons fit into this picture. Their absence from this modelling framework stands out as a missed opportunity.

      We agree that including VIP neurons into the framework would be an obvious and potentially interesting next step. At this point we only include them as potential modulators of SOM neurons. Modeling their dynamics without them receiving inputs from E, PV, or SOM neurons would be uninteresting. However, including them properly into the circuit would be outside the scope of the paper.

      (3) The analysis is limited to paths within this simple E, PV, SOM circuit. This misses more extended paths (like thalamocortical loops) that involve interactions between multiple brain areas. Including those paths in the expansion in Eqs. 11-14 (Fig. 1C) may be an important consideration.

      We agree that our pathway expansion can be used to study more than just the E – PV – SOM circuit. However, properly investigating full thalamocortcial loops should be done in a subsequent study.

      Comments on revisions:

      I think the authors have done a reasonable job of responding to my critiques, and the paper is in pretty good shape. (Also, thanks for correctly inferring that I meant VIP interneurons when I had written SST in my review! I have updated the public review accordingly.)

      I still think this line of research would benefit substantially from considering dynamic regimes including chaotic ones. I strongly encourage the authors to consider such an extension in future work.

      Please see our response above to Reviewer 1.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Bos et al study a computational model of cortical circuits with excitatory (E) and two subtypes of inhibition parvalbumin (PV) and somatostatin (SOM) expressing interneurons. They perform stability and gain analysis of simplified models with nonlinear transfer functions when SOM neurons are perturbed. Their analysis suggests that in a specific setup of connectivity, instability and gain can be untangled, such that SOM modulation leads to both increases in stability and gain, in contrast to the typical direction in neuronal networks where increased gain results in decreased stability.

      Strengths:

      - Analysis of the canonical circuit in response to SOM perturbations. Through numerical simulations and mathematical analysis, the authors have provided a rather comprehensive picture of how SOM modulation may affect response changes.

      - Shedding light on two opposing circuit motifs involved in the canonical E-PV-SOM circuitry - namely, direct inhibition (SOM -¿ E) vs disinhibition (SOM -¿ PV -¿ E). These two pathways can lead to opposing effects, and it is often difficult to predict which one results from modulating SOM neurons. In simplified circuits, the authors show how these two motifs can emerge and depend on parameters like connection weights.

      - Suggesting potentially interesting consequences for cortical computation. The authors suggest that certain regimes of connectivity may lead to untangling of stability and gain, such that increases in network gain are not compromised by decreasing stability. They also link SOM modulation in different connectivity regimes to versatile computations in visual processing in simple models.

      We thank the reviewer for their support of our work.

      Weaknesses

      Computationally, the analysis is solid, but it’s very similar to previous studies (del Molino et al, 2017). Many studies in the past few years have done the perturbation analysis of a similar circuitry with or without nonlinear transfer functions (some of them listed in the references). This study applies the same framework to SOM perturbations, which is a useful computational analysis, in view of the complexity of the high-dimensional parameter space.

      Link to biology: the most interesting result of the paper with regard to biology is the suggestion of a regime in which gain and stability can be modulated in an unconventional way - however, it is difficult to link the results to biological networks:

      - A general weakness of the paper is a lack of direct comparison to biological parameters or experiments. How different experiments can be reconciled by the results obtained here, and what new circuit mechanisms can be revealed? In its current form, the paper reads as a general suggestion that different combinations of gain modulation and stability can be achieved in a circuit model equipped with many parameters (12 parameters). This is potentially interesting but not surprising, given the high dimensional space of possible dynamical properties. A more interesting result would have been to relate this to biology, by providing reasoning why it might be relevant to certain circuits (and not others), or to provide some predictions or postdictions, which are currently missing in the manuscript.

      - For instance, a nice motivation for the paper at the beginning of the Results section is the different results of SOM modulation in different experiments - especially between L23 (inhibition) and L4 (disinhibition). But no further explanation is provided for why such a difference should exist, in view of their results and the insights obtained from their suggested circuit mechanisms. How the parameters identified for the two regimes correspond to different properties of different layers?

      Please see our answer to the previous round of revision.

      - One of the key assumptions of the model is nonlinear transfer functions for all neuron types. In terms of modelling and computational analysis, a thorough analysis of how and when this is necessary is missing (an analysis similar to what has been attempted in Figure 6 for synaptic weights, but for cellular gains). A discussion of this, along with the former analysis to know which nonlinearities would be necessary for the results, is needed, but currently missing from the study. The nonlinearity is assumed for all subtypes because it seems to be needed to obtain the results, but it’s not clear how the model would behave in the presence or absence of them, and whether they are relevant to biological networks with inhibitory transfer functions.

      Please see our answer to the previous round of revision.

      - Tuning curves are simulated for an individual orientation (same for all), not considering the heterogeneity of neuronal networks with multiple orientation selectivity (and other visual features) - making the model too simplistic.

      Please see our answer to the previous round of revision.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Introduction, first paragraph, last sentence: suggest ”sense,” -¿ ”sense” (no comma)

      Introduction, second paragraph, first sentence: suggest ”is been” -¿ ”has been”

      Introduction, very end of next to last paragraph: clarify ”modulate the circuit”

      Figure 1 legend: can you make the ”Change ...” in the legend for 1D clearer - e.g. ”strenghen SOM → E connections and eliminate SOM → P connections”.

      Paragraph immediately below Figure 1: In sentence starting ”Specifically ...” can you relate the cases described here back to the equation in Figure 1C?

      Sentence right below equation 2: This sentence does not separate the network gain from the cellular gain as clearly as it could.

      Page 7, second full paragraph: sentence starting ”Therefore, with ...” could be split into two or otherwise made clearer.

      Sentence starting ”Furthermore” right below Figure 5 has an extra comma

      We thank the reviewer for their additional comments, we made the respective changes in the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      There is a long part in the reply letter discussing the link to biology - but the revised manuscript doesn’t seem to reflect that.

      The information in the reply letter discussing the link to biology has been added at multiple points in the discussion. In the section ‘decision of labor between PV and SOM neurons’ we mention Ferguson and Carding 2020, in the section ‘impact of SOM neuron modulation on tuning curves’ we discuss Phillups and Hasenstaub 2016, and in the section ‘limitations and future directions’ we mention Tobin et al., 2023.

      The writing can be improved - for example, see below instances:

      P. 7: Intuitively, the inverse relationship follows for inhibitory and disinhibitory pathways (and their mixture) because the firing rate grid (heatmap) does not depend on how the SOM neurons inhibit the E - PV circuit.

      P.8: We first remark that by adding feedback E connections onto SOM neurons, changes in SOM rates can now affect the underlying heatmaps in the (rE, rP) grid.

      Not clear how ”rates can affect the heatmaps”. It’s too colloquial and not scientifically rigorous or sound.

      We added further explanations at the respective places in the manuscript to improve the writing.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Response to Reviewer 1

      Thank you for your recognition of our revised work.

      Response to Reviewer 2

      It would be useful to have a demonstration of where this model outperforms SaProt systematically, and a discussion about what the success of this model teaches us given there is a similar, previously successful model, SaProt.

      As two concurrent works, ProtSSN and SaProt employ different methods to incorporate the structure information of proteins. Generally speaking, for two deep learning models that are developed during a close period, it is challenging to conclude that one model is systematically superior to another. Nonetheless, on DTm and DDG (the two low-throughput datasets that we constructed), ProtSSN demonstrates better empirical performance than SaProt.  

      Moreover, ProtSSN is more efficient in both training and inference compared to SaProt. In terms of training cost, SaProt uses 40 million protein structures for pretraining (requiring 64 A100 GPUs for three months), whereas ProtSSN requires only about 30,000 crystal structures from the CATH database (trained on a single 3090 GPU for two days). Despite SaProt’s significantly higher training cost, its pretrained version does not exhibit superior performance on low-throughput datasets such as DTm, DDG, and Clinvar. Furthermore, the high training cost limits many users from retraining or fine-tuning the model for specific needs or datasets.

      Regarding the inference cost, ProtSSN requires only one embedding computation for a wild-type protein, regardless of the number of mutants (n). In contrast, SaProt computes a separate embedding and score for each mutant. For instance, when evaluating the scoring performance on ProteinGym, ProtSSN only needs 217 inferences, while SaProt needs more than 2M inferences. This inference speed is important in practice, such as high-throughput design and screening.

      Please remove the reference to previous methods as "few shot". This typically refers to their being trained on experimental data, not their using MSAs. A "few shot" model would be ProteinNPT.

      The definition of "few-shot" we used here is following ESM1v [1]. This concept originates from providing a certain number of examples as input to GPT-3 [2]. In the context of protein deep learning models, MSA serves as the wild-type protein examples.

      Also, Reviewer 1 uses the concept in the same way. 

      “Readers should note that methods labelled as "few-shot" in comparisons do not make use of experimental labels, but rather use sequences inferred as homologous; these sequences are also often available even if the protein has never been experimentally tested.”

      In the main text, we also included this definition as well as the reference of ESM-1v in lines 457-458.

      “We extend the evaluation on ProteinGym v0 to include a comparison of our zero-shot ProtSSN with few-shot learning methods that leverage MSA information of proteins (Meier et al., 2021).”

      (1) Meier J, Rao R, Verkuil R, et al. Language models enable zero-shot prediction of the effects of mutations on protein function. Advances in Neural Information Processing Systems, 2021.

      (2) Brown T, Mann B, Ryder N, et al. Language models are few-shot learners. Advances in Neural Information Processing Systems, 2020.

      Furthermore, I don't think it is fair to state that your method is not comparable to these models -- one can run an MSA just as one can predict a structure. A fairer comparison would be to highlight particular assays for which getting an MSA could be challenging -- Transcription did this by showing that they outperform EVE when MSAs are shallow.

      We recognize that there are often differences in the definitions and classifications of various methodologies. Here, we follow the definitions provided by ProteinGym. As the most comprehensive and large scale open benchmark in the community, we believe this classification scheme should be widely accepted. All classifications are available on the official website of ProteinGym (https://proteingym.org/benchmarks), which categorizes methods into PLMs, Structure-based models, and Alignment-based models. For example, GEMME is classified as an alignment-based model, and MSA Transformer is considered a hybrid model combining alignment and PLM features.

      We believe that methodologies with different inputs and architectures can lead to inherent unfairness. Also, it is generally believed that models including evolutionary relationships tend to outperform end-to-end models due to the extra information and efforts involved during the training phase. Some empirical evidence and discussions are in the ablation studies of retrieval factors in Tranception [3]. Moreover, the choice of MSA search parameters can introduce uncertainty, which could have positive or negative impacts. 

      We showcase the impact of MSA depth on model performance with an additional analysis below. Author response image 1 visualizes the Spearman’s correlation between the scores of each model and the number of MSAs on 217 ProteinGym assays, where each point represents one of 217 assays. The summary correlation of each model with respect to all assays are reported in Author response table 1. These results demonstrate no clear correlation between MSA depth and model performance even for MSA-based models.

      Author response image 1.

      Scatter plots of the number of MSA sequences and spearman’s correlation.

      Author response table 1.

      Spearmar’s score of the number of MSA sequences and the model’s performance.

      (3) Notin P, Dias M, Frazer J, et al. Tranception: protein fitness prediction with autoregressive transformers and inference-time retrieval. International Conference on Machine Learning, 2022.

      The authors state that DTm and DDG are conceptually appealing because they come from low-throughput assays with lower experimental noise and are also mutations that are particularly chosen to represent the most interesting regions of the protein. I agree with the conceptual appeal but I don't think these claims have been demonstrated in practice. The cited comparison with Frazer as a particularly noisy source of data I think is particularly unconvincing: ClinVar labels are not only rigorously determined from multiple sources of evidence, Frazer et al demonstrates that these labels are actually more reliable than experiment in some cases. They also state that ProteinGym data doesn't come with environmental conditions, but these can be retrieved from the papers the assays came from. The paper would be strengthened by a demonstration of the conceptual benefit of these new datasets, say a comparison of mutations and signal for a protein that may be in one of these datasets vs ProteinGym.

      In the work by Frazer et al. [4], they mentioned that

      "However, these technologies do not easily scale to thousands of proteins, especially not to combinations of variants, and depend critically on the availability of assays that are relevant to or at least associated with human disease phenotypes." 

      It points out that the results of high-throughput experiments are usually based on the design of specific genes (such as BRCA1 and TP53.) and cannot be easily extended to thousands of other genes. At the same time, due to the complexity of the experiment, there may be problems with reproducibility or deviations from clinical relevance.

      This statement aligns with our perspective that high-throughput experiments inherently involve a significant amount of noise and error. It is important to clarify that the noise we discuss here arises from the limitations of high-throughput experiments themselves, instead of from the reliability of the data sources, such as systematic errors in experimental measurements. This latter issue is a complex problem common to all wetlab experiments and falls outside the scope of our study.

      Under this premise, low-throughput datasets like DTm and DDG can be considered to have less noise than high-throughput datasets, as they have undergone manual curation. As for your suggestion, while valuable, unfortunately, we were unable to identify datasets in DTM and DDG that align with those in ProteinGym after a careful search. Thus, we are unable to conduct this comparative experiment at this stage.

      (4) Frazer J, Notin P, Dias M, et al. Disease variant prediction with deep generative models of evolutionary data. Nature, 2021.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      I would like to express my appreciation for the authors' dedication to revising the manuscript. It is evident that they have thoughtfully addressed numerous concerns I previously raised, significantly contributing to the overall improvement of the manuscript.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewers’ recognition of our efforts in revising the manuscript.

      My primary concern regarding the authors' framing of their findings within the realm of habitual and goal-directed action control persists. I will try explain my point of view and perhaps clarify my concerns. While acknowledging the historical tendency to equate procedural learning with habits, I believe a consensus has gradually emerged among scientists, recognizing a meaningful distinction between habits and skills or procedural learning. I think this distinction is crucial for a comprehensive understanding of human action control. While these constructs share similarities, they should not be used interchangeably. Procedural learning and motor skills can manifest either through intentional and planned actions (i.e., goal-directed) or autonomously and involuntarily (habitual responses).

      Response: We would like to clarify that, contrary to the reviewer’s assertion of a scientific consensus on this matter, the discussion surrounding the similarities and differences between habits and skills remains an ongoing and unresolved topic of interest among scientists (Balleine and Dezfouli, 2019; Du and Haith, 2023; Graybiel and Grafton, 2015; Haith and Krakauer, 2018; Hardwick et al., 2019; Kruglanski and Szumowska, 2020; Robbins and Costa, 2017). We absolutely agree with the reviewer that “Procedural learning and motor skills can manifest either through intentional and planned actions (i.e., goal-directed) or autonomously and involuntarily (habitual responses)”. But so do habits. Some researchers also highlight the intentional/goal-directed nature of habits (e.g., Du and Haith, 2023, “Habits are not automatic” (preprint) or Kruglanski and Szumowska, 2020, “Habitual behavior is goal-driven”: “definitions of habits that include goal independence as a foundational attribute of habits are begging the question; they effectively define away, and hence dispose of, the issue of whether habits are goal-driven (p 1258).” Therefore, there is no clear consensus concerning the concept of habit.

      While we acknowledge the meaningful distinctions between habits and skills, we also recognize a substantial body of literature supporting the overlap between these concepts (cited in our manuscript), particularly at the neural level. The literature clearly indicates that both habits and skills are mediated by subcortical circuits, with a progressive disengagement of cognitive control hubs in frontal and cingulate cortices as repetition evolves. We do not use these concepts interchangeably. Instead, we simply present evidence supporting the assertion that our trained app sequences meet several criteria for their habitual nature.

      Our choice of Balleine and Dezfouli (2018)'s criteria stemmed from the comprehensive nature of their definitions, which effectively synthesized insights from various researchers (Mazar and Wood, 2018; Verplanken et al., 1998; Wood, 2017, etc). Importantly, their list highlights the positive features of habits that were previously overlooked. However, these authors still included a controversial criterion ("habits as insensitive to changes in their relationship to their individual consequences and the value of those consequences"), even though they acknowledged the problems of using outcome devaluation methods and of relying on a null-effect. According to Kruglanski and Szumowska (2020), this criterion is highly problematic as “If, by definition, habits are goalindependent, then any behavior found to be goal-dependent could not be a habit on sheer logical grounds” (p. 1257). In their definition, “habitual behavior is sensitive to the value of the reward (i.e., the goal) it is expected to mediate and is sensitive to the expectancy of goal attainment (i.e., obtainment of the reward via the behavior, p.1265). In fact, some recent analyses of habitual behavior are not using devaluation or revaluation as a criterion (Du and Haith, 2023). This article, for example, ascertains habits using different criteria and provides supporting evidence for trained action sequences being understood as skills, with both goal-directed and habitual components.

      In the discussion of our manuscript, we explicitly acknowledge that the app sequences can be considered habitual or goal-directed in nature and that this terminology does not alter the fact that our overtrained sequences exhibit clear habitual features.

      Watson et al. (2022) aptly detailed my concerns in the following statements: "Defining habits as fluid and quickly deployed movement sequences overlaps with definitions of skills and procedural learning, which are seen by associative learning theorists as different behaviors and fields of research, distinct from habits."

      "...the risk of calling any fluid behavioral repertoire 'habit' is that clarity on what exactly is under investigation and what associative structure underpins the behavior may be lost." I strongly encourage the authors, at the very least, to consider Watson et al.'s (2022) suggestion: "Clearer terminology as to the type of habit under investigation may be required by researchers to ensure that others can assess at a glance what exactly is under investigation (e.g., devaluationinsensitive habits vs. procedural habits)", and to refine their terminology accordingly (to make this distinction clear). I believe adopting clearer terminology in these respects would enhance the positioning of this work within the relevant knowledge landscape and facilitate future investigations in the field.

      Response: We would like to highlight that we have indeed followed Watson et al (2022)’s recommendations on focusing on other features/criteria of habits at the expense of the outcome devaluation/contingency degradation paradigm, which has been more controversial in the human literature. Our manuscript clearly aligns with Watson et al. (2022) ‘s recommendations: “there are many other features of habits that are not captured by the key metrics from outcome devaluation/contingency degradation paradigms such as the speed at which actions are performed and the refined and invariant characteristics of movement sequences (Balleine and Dezfouli, 2019). Attempts are being made to develop novel behavioral tasks that tap into these positive features of habits, and this should be encouraged as should be tasks that are not designed to assess whether that behavior is sensitive to outcome devaluation, but capture the definition of habits through other measures”.

      Regarding the authors' use of Balleine and Dezfouli's (2018) criteria to frame recorded behavior as habitual, as well as to acknowledgment the study's limitations, it's important to highlight that while the authors labelled the fourth criterion (which they were not fulfilling) as "resistance to devaluation," Balleine and Dezfouli (2018) define it as "insensitive to changes in their relationship to their individual consequences and the value of those consequences." In my understanding, this definition is potentially aligned with the authors' re-evaluation test, namely, it is conceptually adequate for evaluating the fourth criterion (which is the most accepted in the field and probably the one that differentiate habits from skills). Notably, during this test, participants exhibited goaldirected behavior.

      The authors characterized this test as possibly assessing arbitration between goal-directed and habitual behavior, stating that participants in both groups "demonstrated the ability to arbitrate between prior automatic actions and new goal-directed ones." In my perspective, there is no justification for calling it a test of arbitration. Notably, the authors inferred that participants were habitual before the test based on some criteria, but then transitioned to goal-directed behavior based on a different criterion. While I agree with the authors' comment that: "Whether the initiation of the trained motor sequences in experiment 3 (arbitration) is underpinned by an action-outcome association (or not) has no bearing on whether those sequences were under stimulus-response control after training (experiment 1)." they implicitly assert a shift from habit to goal-directed behavior without providing evidence that relies on the same probed mechanism. Therefore, I think it would be more cautious to refer to this test as solely an outcome revaluation test. Again, the results of this test, if anything, provide evidence that the fourth criterion was tested but not met, suggesting participants have not become habitual (or at least undermines this option).

      Response: In our previously revised manuscript, we duly acknowledged that the conventional (perhaps nowadays considered outdated) goal devaluation criterion was not met, primarily due to constraints in designing the second part of the study. We did cite evidence from another similar study that had used devaluation app-trained action sequences to demonstrate habitual qualities (but the reviewer ignored this).

      The reviewer points out that we did use a manipulation of goal revaluation in one of the follow-up tests conducted (although this was not a conventional goal revaluation test inasmuch that it was conducted in a novel context). In this test, please note that we used 2 manipulations: monetary and physical effort. Although we did show that subjects, including OCD patients, were apparently goaldirected in the monetary reward manipulation, this was not so clear when goal re-evaluation involved the physical effort expended. In this effort manipulation, participants were less goaloriented and OCD patients preferred to perform the longer, familiar, to the shorter, novel sequence, thus exhibiting significantly greater habitual tendencies, as compared to controls. Hence, we cannot decisively conclude that the action sequence is goal-directed as the reviewer is arguing. In fact, the evidence is equivocal and may reflect both habitual and goal-directed qualities in the performance of this sequence, consistent with recent interpretations of skilled/habitual sequences (Du and Haith, 2023). Relying solely on this partially met criterion to conclude that the app-trained sequences are goal-directed, and therefore not habitual, would be an inaccurate assessment for several reasons: 1) the action sequences did satisfy all other criteria for being habitual; 2) this approach would rest on a problematic foundation for defining habits, as emphasized by Kruglanski & Szumowska (2020); and 3) it would succumb to the pitfall of subscribing to a zero-sum game perspective, as cautioned by various researchers, including the review by Watson et al. (2022) cited by the referee, thus oversimplifying the nuanced nature of human behavior.

      While we have previously complied with the reviewer’s suggestion on relabelling our follow-up test as a “revaluation test” instead of an “arbitration test”, we have now explicitly removed all mentions of the term “arbitration” (which seems to raise concerns) throughout the manuscript. As the reviewer has suggested, we now use a more refined terminology by explicitly referring to the measured behavior as "procedural habits", as he/she suggested. We have also extensively revised the discussion section of our manuscript to incorporate the reviewer’s viewpoint. We hope that these adjustments enhance the clarity and accuracy of our manuscript, addressing the concerns raised during this review process.

      In essence, this is an ontological and semantic matter, that does not alter our findings in any way. Whether the sequences are consider habitual or goal directed, does not change our findings that 1) Both groups displayed equivalent procedural learning and automaticity attainment; 2) OCD patients exhibit greater subjective habitual tendencies via self-reported questionnaires; 3) Patients who had elevated compulsivity and habitual self-reported tendencies engaged significantly more with the motor habit-training app, practiced more and reported symptom relief at the end of the study; 4) these particular patients also show an augmented inclination to attribute higher intrinsic value to familiar actions, a possible mechanism underlying compulsions.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      A few more small comments (with reference to the point numbers indicated in the rebuttal):

      (14) I am not entirely sure why the suggested analysis is deemed impractical (i.e., why it cannot be performed by "pretending" participants received the points they should have received according to their performance). This can further support (or undermine) the idea of effect of reward on performance rather than just performance on performance.

      Response: We have now conducted this analysis, generating scores for each trial of practices after day 20, when participants no longer gained points for their performance. This analysis assesses whether participants trial-wise behavioral changes exhibit a similar pattern following simulated relative increases or decrease in scores, as if they had been receiving points at this stage. Note that this analysis has fewer trials available, around 50% less on average.

      Before presenting our results, we wish to emphasize the importance of distinguishing between the effects of performance on performance and the effects of reward on performance. In response to a reviewer's suggestion, we assessed the former in the first revision of our manuscript. We normalized the movement time variable and evaluated how normalized behavioral changes responded to score increments and decrements. The results from the original analyses were consistent with those from the normalized data.

      Regarding the phase where participants no longer received scores, we believe this phase primarily helps us understand the impact of 'predicted' or 'learned' rewards on performance. Once participants have learned the simple association between faster performance and larger scores, they can be expected to continue exhibiting the reward sensitivity effects described in our main analysis. We consider it is not feasible to assess the effects of performance on performance during the reward removal phase, which occurs after 20 days. Therefore, the following results pertain to how the learned associations between faster movement times and scores persist in influencing behavior, even when explicit scores are no longer displayed on the screen.

      Results: The main results of the effect of reward on behavioral changes persist, supporting that relative increases or decreases in scores (real or imagined/inferred) modulate behavioral adaptations trial-by-trial in a consistent manner across both cohorts. The direction of the effects of reward is the same as in the main analyses presented in the manuscript: larger mean behavioral changes (smaller std) following ∆R- . First, concerning changes in “normalized” movement time (MT) trial-by-trial, we conducted a 2 x 2 factorial analysis of the centroid of the Gaussian distributions with the same factors Reward, Group and Bin. This analysis demonstrated a significant main effect of Reward (P = 2e-16), but not of Group (P = 0.974) or Bin (P = 0.281). There were no significant interactions between factors. The main Reward effect can be observed in the top panel of the figure below. The same analysis applied to the spread (std) of the Gaussian distributions revealed a significant main effect of Reward (P = 0.000213), with no additional main effects or interactions.

      Author response image 1.

      Next, conducting the same 2 x 2 factorial analyses on the centroid and spread of the Gaussian distributions fitted to the Consistency data, we also obtained a robust significant main effect of Reward. For the centroid variable, we obtained a significant main effect of Reward (P = 0.0109) and Group (P = 0.0294), while Bin and the factor interactions were non-significant. See the top panel of the figure below.

      On the other hand, Reward also modulated significantly the spread of the Gaussian distributions fitted to the Consistency data, P = 0.00498. There were no additional significant main effects or interactions. See the bottom panel in the figure below.

      Note that here the factorial analysis was performed on the logarithmic transformation of the std.

      Author response image 2.

      (16) I find this result interesting and I think it might be worthwhile to include it in the paper.

      Response: We have now included this result in our revised manuscript (page 28)

      (18) I referred to this sentence: "The app preferred sequence was their preferred putative habitual sequence while the 'any 6' or 'any 3'-move sequences were the goal-seeking sequences." In my understanding, this implies one choice is habitual and another indicates goal-directedness.

      One last small comment:
In the Discussion it is stated: "Moreover, when faced with a choice between the familiar and a new, less effort-demanding sequence, the OCD group leaned toward the former, likely due to its inherent value. These insights align with the theory of goal-direction/habit imbalance in OCD (Gillan et al., 2016), underscoring the dominance of habits in particular settings where they might hold intrinsic value."

      This could equally be interpreted as goal-directed behavior, so I do not think there is conclusive support for this claim.

      Response: The choice of the familiar/trained sequence, as opposed to the 'any 6' or 'any 3'-move sequences cannot be explicitly considered goal-directed: firstly, because the app familiar sequences were associated with less monetary reward (in the any-6 condition), and secondly, because participants would clearly need more effort and time to perform them. Even though these were automatic, it would still be much easier and faster to simply tap one finger sequentially 6 times (any6) or 3 times (any-3). Therefore, the choice for the app-sequence would not be optimal/goaldirected. In this sense, that choice aligns with the current theory of goal-direction/habit imbalance of OCD. We found that OCD patients prefer to perform the trained app sequences in the physical effort manipulation (any-3 condition). While this, on one hand cannot be explicitly considered a goal-directed choice, we agree that there is another possible goal involved here, which links to the intrinsic value associated to the familiar sequence. In this sense the action could potentially be considered goal-directed. This highlights the difficulty of this concept of value and agrees with: 1) Hommel and Wiers (2017): “Human behavior is commonly not driven by one but by many overlapping motives . . . and actions are commonly embedded into larger-scale activities with multiple goals defined at different levels. As a consequence, even successful satiation of one goal or motive is unlikely to also eliminate all the others(p. 942) and 2) Kruglanski & Szumowska (2020)’s account that “habits that may be unwanted from the perspective of an outsider and hence “irrational” or purposeless, may be highly wanted from the perspective of the individual for whom a habit is functional in achieving some goal” (p. 1262) and therefore habits are goal-driven.

      References:

      Balleine BW, Dezfouli A. 2019. Hierarchical Action Control: Adaptive Collaboration Between Actions and Habits. Front Psychol 10:2735. doi:10.3389/fpsyg.2019.02735

      Du Y, Haith A. 2023. Habits are not automatic. doi:10.31234/osf.io/gncsf Graybiel AM, Grafton ST. 2015. The Striatum: Where Skills and Habits Meet. Cold Spring Harb Perspect Biol 7:a021691. doi:10.1101/cshperspect.a021691

      Haith AM, Krakauer JW. 2018. The multiple effects of practice: skill, habit and reduced cognitive load. Current Opinion in Behavioral Sciences 20:196–201. doi:10.1016/j.cobeha.2018.01.015

      Hardwick RM, Forrence AD, Krakauer JW, Haith AM. 2019. Time-dependent competition between goal-directed and habitual response preparation. Nat Hum Behav 1–11. doi:10.1038/s41562019-0725-0

      Hommel B, Wiers RW. 2017. Towards a Unitary Approach to Human Action Control. Trends Cogn Sci 21:940–949. doi:10.1016/j.tics.2017.09.009

      Kruglanski AW, Szumowska E. 2020. Habitual Behavior Is Goal-Driven. Perspect Psychol Sci 15:1256– 1271. doi:10.1177/1745691620917676

      Mazar A, Wood W. 2018. Defining Habit in Psychology In: Verplanken B, editor. The Psychology of Habit: Theory, Mechanisms, Change, and Contexts. Cham: Springer International Publishing. pp. 13–29. doi:10.1007/978-3-319-97529-0_2

      Robbins TW, Costa RM. 2017. Habits. Current Biology 27:R1200–R1206. doi:10.1016/j.cub.2017.09.060

      Verplanken B, Aarts H, van Knippenberg A, Moonen A. 1998. Habit versus planned behaviour: a field experiment. Br J Soc Psychol 37 ( Pt 1):111–128. doi:10.1111/j.2044-8309.1998.tb01160.x

      Watson P, O’Callaghan C, Perkes I, Bradfield L, Turner K. 2022. Making habits measurable beyond what they are not: A focus on associative dual-process models. Neurosci Biobehav Rev 142:104869. doi:10.1016/j.neubiorev.2022.104869

      Wood W. 2017. Habit in Personality and Social Psychology. Pers Soc Psychol Rev 21:389–403. doi:10.1177/1088868317720362

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      We appreciate the reviewers for their insightful feedback, which has substantially improved our manuscript. Following the suggestions of the reviewers, we have undertaken the following major revisions:

      a. Concerning data transformation, we have adjusted the methodology in Figures 2 and 3. Instead of normalizing c-Fos density to the whole brain c-Fos density as initially described, we now normalize to the c-Fos density of the corresponding brain region in the control group. b. We have substituted the PCA approach with hierarchical clustering in Figures 2 and 3.

      c. In the discussion section, we added a subsection on study limitations, focusing on the variations in drug administration routes and anesthesia depth.

      Enclosed are our detailed responses to each of the reviewer's comments.

      Reviewer #1:

      1a. The addition of the EEG/EMG is useful, however, this information is not discussed. For instance, there are differences in EEG/EMG between the two groups (only Ket significantly increased delta/theta power, and only ISO decreased EMG power). These results should be discussed as well as the limitation of not having physiological measures of anesthesia to control for the anesthesia depth.

      1b. The possibility that the differences in fos observed may be due to the doses used should be discussed.

      1c. The possibility that the differences in fos observed may be due kinetic of anesthetic used should be discussed.

      Thank you for your suggestions. We have now discussed EEG/EMG result, limitation of not having physiological measures of anesthesia to control for the anesthesia depth, The possibility that the differences in fos observed may be due to the doses, The possibility that the differences in Fos observed may be due kinetic of anesthetic in the revised manuscript (Lines 308-331, also shown below).

      Lines 308-331: "...Our findings indicate that c-Fos expression in the KET group is significantly elevated compared to the ISO group, and the saline group exhibits notably higher c-Fos expression than the home cage group, as seen in Supplementary Figures 2 and 3. Intraperitoneal saline injections in the saline group, despite pre-experiment acclimation with handling and injections for four days, may still evoke pain and stress responses in mice. Subtle yet measurable variations in brain states between the home cage and saline groups were observed, characterized by changes in normalized EEG delta/theta power (home cage: 0.05±0.09; saline: -0.03±0.11) and EMG power (home cage: -0.37±0.34; saline: 0.04±0.13), as shown in Supplementary Figure 1. These changes suggest a relative increase in overall brain activity in the saline group compared to the home cage group, potentially contributing to the higher c-Fos expression. Although the difference in EEG power between the ISO group and the home cage control was not significant, the increase in EEG power observed in the ISO group was similar to that of KET (0.47 ± 0.07 vs 0.59 ± 0.10), suggesting that both agents may induce loss of consciousness in mice. Regarding EMG power, ISO showed a significant decrease in EMG power compared to its control group. In contrast, the KET group showed a lesser reduction in EMG power (ISO: -1.815± 0.10; KET: -0.96 ± 0.21), which may partly explain the higher overall c-Fos expression levels in the KET group. This is consistent with previous studies where ketamine doses up to 150 mg/kg increase delta power while eliciting a wakefulness-like pattern of c-Fos expression across the brain [1]. Furthermore, the observed differences in c-Fos expression may arise in part from the dosages, routes of administration, and their distinct pharmacokinetic profiles. This variation is compounded by the lack of detailed physiological monitoring, such as blood pressure, heart rate, and respiration, affecting our ability to precisely assess anesthesia depth. Future studies incorporating comprehensive physiological monitoring and controlled dosing regimens are essential to further elucidate these relationships and refine our understanding of the effects of anesthetics on brain activity"

      1. Lu J, Nelson LE, Franks N, Maze M, Chamberlin NL, Saper CB: Role of endogenous sleep-wake and analgesic systems in anesthesia. J Comp Neurol 2008, 508(4):648-662.

      2b. I am confused because Fig 2C seems to show significant decrease in %fos in the hypothalamus, midbrain and cerebellum after KET, while the author responded that " in our analysis, we did not detect regions with significant downregulation when comparing anesthetized mice with controls." Moreover the new figure in the rebuttal in response to reviewer 2 suggests that Ket increases Fos in almost every single region (green vs blue) which is not the conclusion of the paper.

      Your concern regarding the apparent discrepancy is well-founded. The inconsistency arose due to an inappropriate data transformation, which affected the interpretation. We have now rectified this by adjusting the data transformation in Figures 2 and 3. Specifically, we have recalculated the log relative c-Fos density values relative to the control group for each brain region. This revision has resolved the issue, confirming that our analysis did not detect any regions with significant downregulation in the anesthetized mice compared to controls. We have also updated the results, discussion, and methods sections of Figures 2 and 3 to accurately reflect these changes and ensure consistency with our findings.

      Author response image 1.

      Figure 2. Whole-brain distributions of c-Fos+ cells induced by ISO and KET. (A) Hierarchical clustering was performed on the log relative c-Fos density data for ISO and KET using the complete linkage method based on the Euclidean distance matrix, with clusters identified by a dendrogram cut-off ratio of 0.5. Numerical labels correspond to distinct clusters within the dendrogram. (B) Silhouette values plotted against the ratio of tree height for ISO and KET, indicating relatively higher Silhouette values at 0.5 (dashed line), which is associated with optimal clustering. (C) The number of clusters identified in each treatment condition at different ratios of the dendrogram tree height, with a cut-off level of 0.5 corresponding to 4 clusters for both ISO and KET (indicated by the dashed line). (D) The bar graph depicts Z scores for clusters in ISO and KET conditions, represented with mean values and standard errors. One-way ANOVA with Tukey's post hoc multiple comparisons. ns: no significance; ***P < 0.001. (E) Z-scored log relative density of c-Fos expression in the clustered brain regions. The order and abbreviations of the brain regions and the numerical labels correspond to those in Figure 2A. The red box denotes the cluster with the highest mean Z score in comparison to other clusters. CTX: cortex; TH: thalamus; HY: hypothalamus; MB: midbrain; HB: hindbrain.

      Author response image 2.

      Figure 3. Similarities and differences in ISO and KET activated c-Fos brain areas. (A) Hierarchical clustering was performed on the log-transformed relative c-Fos density data for ISO and KET using the complete linkage method based on the Euclidean distance matrix, with clusters identified by a dendrogram cut-off ratio of 0.5. (B) Silhouette values are plotted against the ratio of tree height from the hierarchical clustered dendrogram in Figure 3A. (C) The relationship between the number of clusters and the tree height ratio of the dendrogram for ISO and KET, with a cut-off ratio of 0.5 resulting in 3 clusters for ISO and 5 for KET (indicated by the dashed line). (D) The bar graph depicts Z scores for clusters in ISO and KET conditions, represented with mean values and standard errors. One-way ANOVA with Tukey's post hoc multiple comparisons. ns: no significance; ***P < 0.001. (E) Z-scored log relative density of c-Fos expression within the identified brain region clusters. The arrangement, abbreviations of the brain regions, and the numerical labels are in accordance with Figure 3A. The red boxes highlight brain regions that rank within the top 10 percent of Z score values. The white boxes denote brain regions with an Z score less than -2.

      1. There are still critical misinterpretations of the PCA analysis. For instance, it is mentioned that " KET is associated with the activation of cortical regions (as evidenced by positive PC1 coefficients in MOB, AON, MO, ACA, and ORB) and the inhibition of subcortical areas (indicated by negative coefficients) " as well as " KET displays cortical activation and subcortical inhibition, whereas ISO shows a contrasting preference, activating the cerebral nucleus (CNU) and the hypothalamus while inhibiting cortical areas. To reduce inter-individual variability." These interpretations are in complete contradiction with the answer 2b above that there was no region that had decreased Fos by either anesthetic.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. In response to your concerns, we have made significant revisions to our data analysis. We have updated our input data to incorporate log-transformed relative c-Fos density values, normalized against the control group for each brain region, as illustrated in Figures 2 and 3. Instead of PCA, we have applied this updated data to hierarchical clustering analysis. The results of these analyses are consistent with our original observation that neither anesthetic led to a decrease in Fos expression in any region.

      1. I still do not understand the rationale for the use of that metric. The use of a % of total Fos makes the data for each region dependent on the data of the other regions which wrongly leads to the conclusion that some regions are inhibited while they are not when looking at the raw data. Moreover, the interdependence of the variable (relative density) may affect the covariance structure which the PCA relies upon. Why not using the PCA on the logarithm of the raw data or on a relative density compared to the control group on a region-per-region basis instead of the whole brain?

      Thank you for your insightful suggestion. Following your advice, we have revised our approach and now utilize the logarithm of the relative density compared to the control group on a region-by-region basis. We attempted PCA analyses using the logarithm of the raw data, the logarithm of the Z-score, and the logarithm of the relative density compared to control, but none yielded distinct clusters.

      Author response image 3.

      As a result, we employed hierarchical cluster analysis. We then examined the Z-scores of the log-transformed relative c-Fos densities (Figures 2E and 3E) to assess expression levels across clusters. Our analysis revealed that neither ISO nor KET treatments led to a significant suppression of c-Fos expression in the 53 brain regions examined. In the ISO group alone, there were 10 regions that demonstrated relative suppression (Z-score < -2, indicated by white boxes) as shown in Figure 3.

      Fig. 2B: it's unclear to me why the regions are connected by a line. Such representation is normally used for time series/within-subject series. What is the rationale for the order of the regions and the use of the line? The line connecting randomly organized regions is meaningless and confusing.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have discontinued the use of PCA calculations and have removed this figure.

      Fig 6A. The correlation matrices are difficult to interpret because of the low resolution and arbitrary order of brain regions. I recommend using hierarchical clustering and/or a combination of hierarchical clustering and anatomical organization (e.g. PMID: 31937658). While it is difficult to add the name of the regions on the graph I recommend providing supplementary figures with large high-resolution figures with the name of each brain region so the reader can actually identify the correlation between specific brain regions and the whole brain, Rationale for Metric Choice: Note that I do not dispute the choice of the log which is appropriate, it is the choice of using the relative density that I am questioning.

      Thank you for your constructive feedback. In line with your suggestion, we have implemented hierarchical clustering combined with anatomical organization as per the referenced literature. Additionally, we have updated the vector diagrams in Figure 6A to present them with greater clarity.

      Furthermore, we have revised our network modular division method based on cited literature recommendations. We used hierarchical clustering with correlation coefficients to segment the network into modules, illustrated in Figure 6—figure supplement 1. Due to the singular module structure of the KET network and the sparsity of intermodular connections in the home cage and saline networks, the assessment of network hub nodes did not employ within-module degree Z-score and participation coefficients, as these measures predominantly underscore the importance of connections within and between modules. Instead, we used degree, betweenness centrality, and eigenvector centrality to detect the hub nodes, as detailed in Figure 6—figure supplement 2. With this new approach, the hub node for the KET condition changed from SS to TeA. Corresponding updates have been made to the results section for Figure 6, as well as to the related discussions and the abstract of our paper.

      Author response image 4.

      Figure 6. Generation of anesthetics-induced networks and identification of hub regions. (A) Heatmaps display the correlations of log c-Fos densities within brain regions (CTX, CNU, TH, HY, MB, and HB) for various states (home cage, ISO, saline, KET). Correlations are color-coded according to Pearson's coefficients. The brain regions within each anatomical category are organized by hierarchical clustering of their correlation coefficients. (B) Network diagrams illustrate significant positive correlations (P < 0.05) between regions, with Pearson’s r exceeding 0.82. Edge thickness indicates correlation magnitude, and node size reflects the number of connections (degree). Node color denotes betweenness centrality, with a spectrum ranging from dark blue (lowest) to dark red (highest). The networks are organized into modules consistent with the clustering depicted in Supplementary Figure 8. Figure 6—figure supplement 1

      Author response image 5.

      Figure 6—figure supplement 1. Hierarchical clustering of brain regions under various conditions: home cage, ISO, saline, and KET. (A) Heatmaps show the relative distances among brain regions assessed in naive mice. Modules were identified by sectioning each dendrogram at a 0.7 threshold. (B) Silhouette scores plotted against the dendrogram tree height ratio for each condition, with optimal cluster definition indicated by a dashed line at a 0.7 ratio. (C) The number of clusters formed at different cutoff levels. At a ratio of 0.7, ISO and saline treatments result in three clusters, whereas home cage and KET conditions yield two clusters. (D) The mean Pearson's correlation coefficient (r) was computed from interregional correlations displayed in Figure 6A. Data were analyzed using one-way ANOVA with Tukey’s post hoc test, ***P < 0.001.

      Author response image 6.

      Figure 6—figure supplement 2. Hub region characterization across different conditions: home cage (A), ISO (B), saline (C), and KET (D) treatments. Brain regions are sorted by degree, betweenness centrality, and eigenvector centrality, with each metric presented in separate bar graphs. Bars to the left of the dashed line indicate the top 20% of regions by rank, highlighting the most central nodes within the network. Red bars signify regions that consistently appear within the top rankings for both degree and betweenness centrality across the metrics.

      1. I am still having difficulties understanding Fig. 3.

      Panel A: The lack of identification for the dots in panel A makes it impossible to understand which regions are relevant.

      Panel B: what is the metric that the up/down arrow summarizes? Fos density? Relative density? PC1/2?

      Panel C: it's unclear to me why the regions are connected by a line. Such representation is normally used for time series/within-subject series. What is the rationale for the order of the regions?

      Thank you for your patience and for reiterating your concerns regarding Figure 3.

      a. In Panel A, we have substituted the original content with a display of hierarchical clustering results, which now clearly marks each brain region. This change aids readers in identifying regions with similar expression patterns and facilitates a more intuitive understanding of the data.

      a. Acknowledging that our analysis did not reveal any significantly inhibited brain regions, we have decided to remove the previous version of Panel B from the figure.

      b. We have discontinued the use of PCA calculations and have removed this figure to avoid any confusion it may have caused. Our revised analysis focuses on hierarchical clustering, which are presented in the updated figures.

      Reviewer #2:

      1. Aside from issues with their data transformation (see below), (a) I think they have some interesting Fos counts data in Figures 4B and 5B that indicate shared and distinct activation patterns after KET vs. ISO based anesthesia. These data are far closer to the raw data than PC analyses and need to be described and analyzed in the first figures long before figures with the more abstracted PC analyses. In other words, you need to show the concrete raw data before describing the highly transformed and abstracted PC analyses. (b) This gets to the main point that when selecting brain areas for follow up analyses, these should be chosen based on the concrete Fos counts data, not the highly transformed and abstracted PC analyses.

      Thank you for your suggestions.

      a. We have added the original c-Fos cell density distribution maps for Figures 2, 3, 4, and 5 in Supplementary Figures 2 and 3 (also shown below). To maintain consistency across the document, we have updated both the y-axis label and the corresponding data in Figures 4B and 5B from 'c-Fos cell count' to 'c-Fos density'.

      b. The analyses in Figures 2 and 3 include all brain regions. Figures 4 and 5 present the brain regions with significant differences as shown in Figure 3—figure supplement 1.

      Author response image 7.

      Figure 2—figure supplement 1. The c-Fos density in 53 brain areas for different conditions. (home cage, n = 6; ISO, n = 6 mice; saline, n = 8; KET, n = 6). Each point represents the c-Fos density in a specific brain region, denoted on the y-axis with both abbreviations and full names. Data are shown as mean ± SEM. Brain regions are categorized into 12 brain structures, as indicated on the right side of the graph.

      Author response image 8.

      Figure 3—figure supplement 1. c-Fos density visualization across 201 distinct brain regions under various conditions. The graph depicts the c-Fos density levels for each condition, with data presented as mean and standard error. Brain regions with statistically significant differences are featured in Figures 4 and 5. Brain regions are organized into major anatomical subdivisions, as indicated on the left side of the graph.

      1. Now, the choice of data transformation for Fos counts is the most significant problem. First, the authors show in the response letter that not using this transformation (region density/brain density) leads to no clustering. However, they also showed the region-densities without transformation (which we appreciate) and it looks like overall Fos levels in the control group Home (ISO) are a magnitude (~10-fold) higher than those in the control group Saline (KET) across all regions shown. This large difference seems unlikely to be due to a biologically driven effect and seems more likely to be due to a technical issue, such as differences in staining or imaging between experiments. Was the Homecage-ISO experiment or at least the Fos labeling and imaging performed at the same time as for the Saline-Ketamine experiment? Please state the answer to this question in the Results section one way or the other.

      a. “Home (ISO) are a magnitude (~10-fold) higher than those in the control group saline (KET) across all regions shown.” We believe you might be indicating that compared to the home cage group (gray), the saline group (blue) shows a 10-fold higher expression (Supplementary Figure 2/3). Indeed, we observed that the total number of c-Fos cells in the home cage group is significantly lower than in the saline group. This difference may be due to reduced sleep during the light-on period (ZT 6- ZT 7.5) in the saline mice or the pain and stress response caused by intraperitoneal injection of saline. We have explained this discrepancy in the discussion section.Line 308-317(also see below)

      “…Our findings indicate that c-Fos expression in the KET group is significantly elevated compared to the ISO group, and the saline group exhibits notably higher c-Fos expression than the home cage group, as seen in Supplementary Figures 2 and 3. Intraperitoneal saline injections in the saline group, despite pre-experiment acclimation with handling and injections for four days, may still evoke pain and stress responses in mice. Subtle yet measurable variations in brain states between the home cage and saline groups were observed, characterized by changes in normalized EEG delta/theta power (home cage: 0.05±0.09; saline: -0.03±0.11) and EMG power (home cage: -0.37±0.34; saline: 0.04±0.13), as shown in Figure 1—figure supplement 1. These changes suggest a relative increase in overall brain activity in the saline group compared to the home cage group, potentially contributing to the higher c-Fos expression…”

      b. Drug administration and tissue collection for both Homecage-ISO and Saline-Ketamine groups were consistently scheduled at 13:00 and 14:30, respectively. Four mice were administered drugs and had tissues collected each day, with two from the experimental group and two from the control group, to ensure consistent sampling. The 4% PFA fixation time, sucrose dehydration time, primary and secondary antibody concentrations and incubation times, staining, and imaging parameters and equipment (exposure time for VS120 imaging was fixed at 100ms) were all conducted according to a unified protocol.

      We have included the following statement in the results section: Line 81-83, “Sample collection for all mice was uniformly conducted at 14:30 (ZT7.5), and the c-Fos labeling and imaging were performed using consistent parameters throughout all experiments. ”

      1. Second, they need to deal with this large difference in overall staining or imaging for these two (Home/ISO and Saline/KET) experiments more directly; their current normalization choice does not really account for the large overall differences in mean values and variability in Fos counts (e.g. due to labeling and imaging differences).

      3a. I think one option (not perfect but I think better than the current normalization choice) could be z-scoring each treatment to its respective control. They can analyze these z-scored data first, and then in later figures show PC analyses of these data and assess whether the two treatments separate on PC1/2. And if they don't separate, then they don't separate, and you have to go with these results.

      3b. Alternatively, they need to figure out the overall intensity distributions from the different runs (if that the main reason of markedly different counts) and adjust their thresholds for Fos-positive cell detection based on this. I would expect that the saline and HC groups should have similar levels of activation, so they could use these as the 'control' group to determine a Fos-positive intensity threshold that gets applied to the corresponding 'treatment' group.

      3c. If neither 3a nor 3b is an option then they need to show the outcomes of their analysis when using the untransformed data in the main figures (the untransformed data plots in their responses to reviewer are currently not in the main or supplementary figs) and discuss these as well.

      a. Thank you very much for your valuable suggestion. We conducted PCA analysis on the ISO and KET data after Z-scoring them with their respective control groups and did not find any significant separation.

      Author response image 9.

      As mentioned in our response to reviewer #1, we have reprocessed the raw data. Firstly, we divided the ISO and KET data by their respective control brain regions and then performed a logarithmic transformation to obtain the log relative c-Fos density. The purpose of this is to eliminate the impact of baseline differences and reduce variability. We then performed hierarchical clustering, and finally, we Z-scored the log relative c-Fos density data. The aim is to facilitate comparison of ISO and KET on the same data dimension (Figure 2 and 3).

      b. We appreciate your concerns regarding the detection thresholds for Fos-positive cells. The enclosed images, extracted from supplementary figures for Figures 4 and 5, demonstrate notable differences in c-Fos expression between saline and home cage groups in specific brain regions. These regions exhibit a discernible difference in staining intensity, with the saline group showing enhanced c-Fos expression in the PVH and PVT regions compared to the home cage group. An examination of supplementary figures for Figures 4 and 5 shows that c-Fos expression in the home cage group is consistently lower than in the saline group. This comparative analysis confirms that the discrepancies in c-Fos levels are not due to varying detection thresholds.

      Author response image 10.

      b. We have added the corresponding original data graphs to Supplementary Figures 2 and 3, and discussed the potential reasons for the significant differences between these groups in the discussion section (also shown below).

      Lines 308-317: "...Our findings indicate that c-Fos expression in the KET group is significantly elevated compared to the ISO group, and the saline group exhibits notably higher c-Fos expression than the home cage group, as seen in Supplementary Figures 2 and 3. Intraperitoneal saline injections in the saline group, despite pre-experiment acclimation with handling and injections for four days, may still evoke pain and stress responses in mice. Subtle yet measurable variations in brain states between the home cage and saline groups were observed, characterized by changes in normalized EEG delta/theta power (home cage: 0.05±0.09; saline: -0.03±0.11) and EMG power (home cage: -0.37±0.34; saline: 0.04±0.13), as shown in Figure 3—figure supplement 1. These changes suggest a relative increase in overall brain activity in the saline group compared to the home cage group, potentially contributing to the higher c-Fos expression.…”

    2. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We sincerely thank the editor and reviewers for their constructive feedback on our manuscript. Based on their recommendations, we've conducted additional experiments, made revisions to the text and figures, and provide a point-by-point response below.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      1) The lack of behavioral/physiological measures of the depth of anesthesia (ventilation, heart rate, blood pressure, temperature, O2, pain reflexes, etc...) combined with the lack of dose-response and the use of different routes of administration makes the data difficult to interpret. Sure, there is a clear difference in network activation between KET and ISO, but are those effects due to the depth of the anesthesia, the route of administration, and the dose used? The lack of behavioral/physiological measures prevents the identification of brain regions responsible for some of the physiological effects and different effects of anesthetics.

      We greatly appreciate the insightful feedback you have provided.

      In response to the concerns about anesthesia depth:

      a. We recorded EEG and EMG data both before and after drug administration. Supplementary Figure 1 showcases the changes in EEG and EMG power observed 30 minutes post-drug administration, normalized to a 5-minute baseline taken prior to the drug's administration. Notably, no significant differences were detected in the normalized EEG and EMG power between the ISO and KET groups. Given the marked statistical differences observed between the EEG power in the KET and saline groups, and the EMG power in the home cage and ISO groups, we infer that both anesthetics effectively induced a loss of consciousness.

      b. We used standard methods and doses for inducing c-Fos expression with anesthetics, as documented in prior studies (Hua, T, et al., Nat Neurosci, 2020; 23(7): 854-868; Jiang-Xie, L F, et al., Neuron, 2019; 102(5): 1053-1065.e4; Lu, J, et al., J Comp Neurol, 2008; 508(4): 648-62). In future research, it might be more optimal to adopt continuous intraperitoneal or intravenous administration of ketamine.

      c. Within the scope of our study, while disparities in anesthesia duration might potentially influence the direct statistical comparison of ISO and KET, such disparities wouldn't compromise the identification of brain regions activated by KET or ISO when assessed as distinct stimuli (ISO vs. home cage; KET vs. saline) or in relation to their individual functional network hub node results.

      We hope these additions and clarifications adequately address your concerns and enhance the comprehensibility of our data.

      2) Under anesthesia there should be an overall reduction of activity, is that the case? There is no mention of significantly downregulated regions. The authors use multiple transformations of the data to interpret the results (%, PC1 values, logarithm) without much explanation or showing the full raw data in Fig 1. It would be helpful to interpret the data to compare the average fos+ neurons in each region between treatment and control for each drug.

      Absence of Significantly Downregulated Regions Under Anesthesia: There are two primary reasons for this observation:

      a. Our study's sampling time for the home cage, ISO, saline, and KET groups was during Zeitgeber Time (ZT) 6-7.5. During this period, mice in both the home cage and saline groups typically showed reduced spontaneous activity or were in a sleep state. Our Supplementary Figure 1 EEG and EMG data corroborate this, revealing no significant statistical variations in EEG power between the home cage and ISO groups, nor in EMG power between the saline and KET groups.

      b. Our immunohistochemical data showed that the total number of c-Fos positive cells in the two control groups was notably lower than in the experimental groups (Saline group vs KET group: 11808±2386 versus 308705±106131, P = 0.006; Home cage vs ISO group: 3371±840 vs 12326±1879, P = 0.001). This is in line with previous studies, like the one by Cirelli C and team, which found minimal c-Fos expression throughout the mouse brain during physiological sleep (Cirelli, C, and G Tononi, Sleep, 2000; 23(4): 453-69). Thus, in our analysis, we did not detect regions with significant downregulation when comparing anesthetized mice with controls.

      Interpreting Raw Data from Figure 1: Regarding the average Fos+ neurons:

      In Figures 4 and 5, we utilized raw data (c-Fos cell count) to assess cell expression differences across 201 brain regions within each group. Only brain regions that had significant statistical differences after multiple comparison corrections are shown in the figures.

      3) I do not understand their interpretation of the PCA analyses. For instance, in Fig 2 they claim that KET is associated with PC1 while ISO is associated with PC2. Looking at the distribution of points it's clear that the KET animals are all grouped at around +2.5 on PC1 and -2.0 on PC2, this means that KET is associated with both PC1 and PC2 to a similar degree (2 to 2.5). Moreover, I'm confused about why they use PCA to represent the animals/group. PCA is a powerful technique to reduce dimensionality and identify groups of variables that may represent the same underlying construct; however, it is not the best way to identify clusters of individuals or groups.

      Clarification on PCA Analyses in Figure 2: Thank you for pointing out the ambiguities in our initial presentation of the PCA analyses. We are grateful for the opportunity to address these concerns.

      KET and ISO Associations with PC1 and PC2: You rightly observed that KET samples manifest both a positive value on PC1 (around +2.5) and a negative one on PC2 (around -2.0), suggesting that KET has a substantial influence on both principal components. In PCA, a positive score implies a positive association with that component, whereas a negative score suggests a negative association. Contrarily, ISO samples predominantly exhibit values around +2.5 on PC2, with nearly neutral values for PC1, underlining its stronger association with PC2 and lack of significant correlation with PC1. To ensure transparency and clarity, we've adjusted the corresponding descriptions in our manuscript, which can be found on Line 100.

      Rationale Behind Using PCA to Represent Animals/Groups: Our initial step was to conduct PCA clustering analysis on the 201 brain regions within both the ISO and KET groups. In the accompanying chart, varying colors denote different brain regions, while distinct shapes represent separate clusters. There wasn't a pronounced distribution pattern within the ISO and KET groups, which led us to adopt the current computational method presented in the paper. This approach was chosen to directly contrast the relative differential expressions between ISO and KET.

      We deeply value your feedback, which has steered us toward a clearer and more accurate presentation of our data. We genuinely appreciate your meticulous review.

      Author response image 1.

      4) The actual metric used for the first PCA is unclear, is it the FOS density in each of the regions (some of those regions are large and consist of many subregions, how does that affect the analysis) is it the %-fos, or normalized cells? The wording describing this is variable causing some confusion. How would looking at these different metrics influence the analysis?

      Thank you for raising concerns about the metrics used in our PCA analysis. We recognize the need for clearer exposition and appreciate the opportunity to clarify.

      PCA Metrics: The metric for our PCA is calculated by obtaining the ratio of the Fos density within a specific brain region to the global Fos density across the brain. Briefly, this entails dividing the number of Fos-positive cells in a given region by its volume, and then comparing this to the Fos density of the whole brain. The logarithm of this ratio provides our PCA metric. We've elaborated on this in the Materials and Methods section (Lines 401) and enhanced clarity in our revised manuscript, particularly at Line 96.

      In Figure 2A, we employed 53 larger, mutually exclusive brain regions based on the reference from the study by Do et al. (eLife, 2016;5:e13214). However, in Figure 3A, we used a more detailed segmentation, incorporating 201 distinct brain areas that are more granular than those in Figure 2A. Notably, the PCA results from both representations were consistent. The rationale behind selecting either the 53 or 201 brain regions can be found in our response to Question 10.

      Rationale for Metric Choice: The log ratio of regional c-Fos densities relative to the global brain density was chosen due to:

      a. Notable disparities in c-Fos cell expression across the groups.

      b. A significant non-normal distribution of density values across animals within the group. Employing the log ratio effectively mitigates the impact of extreme values and outliers, achieving a more standardized data distribution.

      We've added PCA plots based on c-Fos densities, depicted in Author response image 2. However, the data dispersion has resulted in a significantly spread-out horizontal scale for these visuals.

      Author response image 2.

      5) Based on Fig 3 the authors concludes that ISO activates the hypothalamic regions and inhibits the cortex, however, Fig 1 shows neither an activation of the hypothalamus in the ISO nor an inhibition of the cortex when compared to home cage control. If anything it suggests the opposite.

      Thank you for your insightful observations regarding the discrepancies between Figures 2 and 3. We believe that when you refer to Figure 1, you are actually referencing Figure 2C.

      ISO activation in Hypothalamus: In Figure 2C, we regret the oversight where we inadvertently interchanged the positions of ISO and Saline. When accurately represented, Figure 2C indeed shows that ISO notably activates the periventricular zone (PVZ) and the lateral zone (LZ) of the hypothalamus compared to the home cage group. Moreover, there's a discernible difference in the hypothalamic response between ISO and KET.

      ISO's Effect on the Cortex: The main aim of Figure 3 was to highlight the differing responses between ISO and KET in the cortex. Notably, KET demonstrates a positive correlation with PC1 (+7 on PC1), whereas ISO shows a negative association (-3 on PC1). Given that the coefficient of PC1 for the cortical region is positive, it suggests that the cortical areas activated by KET are inhibited by ISO (with KET's distribution around 0 on PC2). However, the divergence between ISO and the home cage is most apparent in PC2, with ISO clusters at +4 and the home cage approximately at -2, suggesting that ISO activates a different set of cortical nuclei. In alignment with this, Figure 2C also illustrates that ISO activates specific cortical areas, such as ILA and PIR, in contrast to the home cage.

      Thus, Figure 3 primarily employs PCA to delineate the contrasts between ISO and KET, whereas Figure 2C emphasizes the comparison of each against their respective controls.

      6) Control for isoflurane should be air in the induction chamber rather than home cage. It is possible that Fos activation reflects handling/stress pre-anesthesia in the animals, which would increase Fos expression in the stress-related regions such as the BST, striatum (CeA), hypothalamus (PVH) and potentially the LC.

      Thank you for emphasizing the importance of an appropriate control for Isoflurane.

      In our efforts to minimize the potential impact of stress-induced c-Fos expression, we implemented several precautionary measures. Prior to the experiment, both groups of mice were subjected to handling and acclimatization within the induction chamber over four days. By the day of the experiment, for the mice in the experimental group, we ensured they were comfortable and exhibited no signs of distress or fear—such as cowering or evading. With care, we slowly relocated them to the nearby anesthesia induction chamber. Using 5% ISO, anesthesia was induced promptly, following a meticulously devised protocol to reduce stress impacts on c-Fos expression.

      Moreover, existing studies have shown Isoflurane's activation of BST/CeA (Hua, T, et al., Nat Neurosci, 2020, 23: 854-868), PVH (Xu, Z, et al., British Journal of Anaesthesia, 2023, 130: 446-458), and LC (Lu, J, et al., J Comp Neurol, 2008, 508: 648-62), even when using oxygen controls. Such literature supports our findings, indicating that the activation we observed was indeed due to Isoflurane and not purely stress-related.

      7) In the Ket network there are a few anticorrelated regions, most of which are amongst the list of the most activated regions, does this mean that the strong correlation results from an overall decreased activation? And if so, is it possible that the ketamine anesthesia was stronger than the isoflurane, causing a more general reduction in activity?

      The pronounced correlations observed within the ketamine (KET) network do not signify a generalized decrease in activation. Instead, these correlations reflect significantly enhanced activity in specific regions under KET anesthesia. This amplified correlation is an indication of a more widespread increase in activity, rather than a decrease. These findings are consistent with previous research, which showed that anesthetic doses of ketamine produce patterns of Fos expression in the CNS similar to wakefulness (Lu, J, et al., J Comp Neurol, 2008; 508(4): 648-62).

      Regarding the comparative strength of KET versus ISO anesthesia, our electroencephalographic evidence confirms that both agents induce a loss of consciousness. No significant differences were observed in EEG and EMG readings within the first 30 minutes post-administration. In future research, a continuous intravenous or intraperitoneal administration of KET might be a preferable method.

      8) Since they have established networks it would be easy and useful to look at how the different regions identified (sleep, pain, neuroendocrine, motor-related, ...) work together to maintain analgesia, are they within the same module? Do they become functionally connected and is this core network of functional connections similar for KET and ISO?

      Thank you for your suggestion. In response to your inquiry, we undertook analysis of the core functional networks for KET and ISO, using a set threshold at r>0.82 and P<0.05. For evaluating the modularity of each network, we utilized Newman's spectral community detection algorithm.

      (A) The ISO’s core functional network (56 nodes, 372 edges) predominantly divides into two modules with a modularity quotient of 0.345. ISO-active regions include arousal-associated regions (PL, ILA, PVT), analgesia-related (CeA, LC, PB), neuroendocrine function nuclei (TU, PVi, ARH, PVH, SON) as detailed in Figure 5. Notably, ARH and SON weren't incorporated into the core network. Analgesia-associated regions, such as CeA, LC, and PB, reside within module 1, while neuroendocrine nuclei are spread between modules 1 and 2.

      (B) In contrast, KET's core functional network (61 nodes, 1820 edges) splits into three distinct modules, but its low modularity quotient (0.06) indicates a lack of clear functional modularization, suggesting denser interconnections among brain regions. Furthermore, functionally-related regions such as arousal (PL, ILA, PVT, DR), analgesia-related (ACA, APN, PAG, LC), and neuroendocrine regulation (PVH, SON),etc., as seen in Figure 4, are distributed across different modules. This distribution may implies that functions like analgesia and neuroendocrine regulation are not governed by simple, linear processes, but arise from complex, overlapping pathways spanning various modules and functional zones.

      In summary, the core functional networks of ISO and KET differ, with functionally-related regions spanning multiple modules, reflecting their diverse roles in varied physiological regulations.

      Author response image 3.

      9) The naming of the function of some of the regions is very much debatable. For instance, PL/ILA are named "sleep-wakefulness regulation" regions in the paper. I can think of many more important functions of the PL/IL including executive functions, behavioral flexibility, and emotional control. It is unclear how the functions of all the regions were attributed. I am not sure that this biased labeling of structure-function is useful to the reports, it may instead suggest wrong conclusions.

      Thank you for your thoughtful feedback regarding our classification of the functions of the PL/ILA regions in our manuscript.

      We recognize the challenge in accurately defining the functions of brain regions. While there is evidence highlighting the role of PL/ILA in arousal pathways, we also acknowledge their documented roles in executive functions, behavioral flexibility, and emotional control. In response to your comments, we have refined our description, changing "sleep-wakefulness regulation" to "wake-promoting pathways" (see Line: 159, 164).

      It's worth noting that many brain regions, including the PL/ILA, have multiple functions. We agree that a single label might not capture the entirety of their roles. To provide a broader perspective, we will add a section in our manuscript that sheds light on the varied functions of these regions (Line: 181).

      10) A point of concern and confusion is the number of brain regions analyzed. In the introduction, it is mentioned that 987 brain regions are considered, but this is reduced to 53 selected brain regions in Figure 2, then 201 brain regions in Figure 3, and reduced again to 63 for the network analysis. The rationale for selecting different brain regions is not clear.

      For the 987 brain regions: Using the standard mouse atlas available at http://atlas.brain-map.org/, the mouse brain is organized into nine levels. The broadest category is the grey matter, which then progresses to more specific subdivisions, totaling 987 unique regions.

      For the 53 brain regions: To effectively understand the activation patterns of ISO and KET, we started with a broad approach, looking at larger brain areas like the thalamus and hypothalamus. This broad view, presented in Figure 2, focuses on the 5th-level brain regions, encompassing 53 primary areas. This methodology is also employed in the study by Do et al. (Elife, 2016; 5: e13214). We have added the rationale for selecting these brain regions in the main text (Line: 92).

      Regarding the 201 brain regions in Figures 3, 4, and 5: We delved deeper, examining the 6th-level brain regions, a common granularity in neuroscience research. This detailed view allowed us to highlight specific areas, like the CeA and PVH (Line:129).

      Finally, for Figures 6 and 7, we selected 63 regions that were activated by both ISO and KET, as well as regions previously reported to be related to the mechanism of general anesthesia(Leung, L, et al., Progress in neurobiology, 2014; 122: 24-44) (Line: 220). Using these regions, we analyzed the correlation of c-Fos expression, aiming to construct a functional brain network with strong positive connections.

      We hope this clarifies our approach and the rationale behind our region selection at each stage of the study. Thank you for your attention to this detail.

      11) The statistical analysis does not seem appropriate considering the high number of comparisons. They use simple t-tests without correction for multiple comparisons.

      Thank you for pointing out the concern regarding our statistical analysis. In the revised manuscript, we addressed the issue of multiple comparisons correction in our t-tests. We adopted the statistical methods detailed in the papers by Renier, N, et al., Cell, 2016; and Benjamini, Y, and Y Hochberg, 1995. P-values were adjusted for multiple comparisons using the two-stage linear step-up procedure of Benjamini, Krieger, and Yekutieli, with a false discovery rate (FDR) threshold (Q) of 0.05. This approach is now explained in the Materials and Methods section (Line: 434). After this adjustment, the brain regions we initially identified remained statistically significant. Furthermore, we revisited the original immunohistochemical images to confirm the differences in c-Fos cell expression between the experimental and control groups, reinforcing our conclusions.

      12) There is no statistical analysis in Fig 2C。

      Thank you for bringing to our attention the lack of statistical analysis in Fig 2C. We have now added the relevant statistical data in Supplementary Table 1 and provided annotations in Fig 2C to reflect this.

      Reviewer #2

      1) The authors report 987 brain regions in the introduction, but I cannot find any analysis that incorporates these or even which regions they are. Very little rationale is provided for the regions included in any of the analyses and numbers range from 53 in Figure 1, to 201 in Figure 3, to 63 in Figure 6. It would help if the authors could first survey Fos+ counts across all regions to identify a subset that is of interest (significantly changed by either condition compared to control) for follow up analysis.

      Thank you for your insightful comments on the number of brain regions analyzed in our study.

      987 Brain Regions: The reference to 987 brain regions from the standard mouse atlas (http://atlas.brain-map.org/) represents the entire categorization of the mouse brain across nine levels. We recognize that a comprehensive analysis of all these regions would be valuable, but to ensure clarity and depth, we took a focused approach.

      Region Selection Rationale:

      Figure 2: Concentrated on 5th-level brain regions (53 areas), inspired by methods from Do et al. (eLife, 2016;5:e13214). This provided a broad overview of c-Fos expression differences. Figures 4 and 5: Delved into 6th-level brain regions (201 areas), a common practice in neuroscience for more detailed study. Figure 6: We focused on 63 regions, which encompass not only the regions activated by both ISO and KET but also those previously reported to be associated with the mechanisms of general anesthesia. Methodological Approach: Our region selection was rooted in identifying areas with significant changes under anesthetic conditions compared to controls. This staged approach allowed a targeted analysis of the most affected regions, ensuring robust conclusions.

      Enhancements: We've incorporated comparative analyses of activated brain regions at different hierarchical levels in Figures 4 and 5. For clearer comprehension, we’ve added clarifications in the manuscript at Lines: 92, 130, and 220.

      2) Different data transformations are used for each analysis. One that is especially confusing is the 'normalization' of brain regions by % of total brain activation for each animal prior to PCA analysis in Figures 2 and 3. This would obscure any global differences in activation and make it unlikely to observe decreases in activation (which I think is likely here) that could be identified using the Fos+ counts after normalizing for region size (ie. Fos+ count / mm3) which is standard practice in such Fos-based activity mapping studies. While PCA can be powerful approach to identify global patterns, the purpose of the analysis in its current form is unclear. It would be more meaningful to show that regional activation patterns (measured as counts/mm3) are on separate PCs by group.

      Thank you for your thoughtful comments. We regret any confusion caused by our initial presentation. For the PCA analysis in Figures 2A and 3A, we calculated the ratio of cell density in each brain region to the overall brain density, and then applied a logarithmic transformation to this ratio. Our approach in Figure 2C was to use the proportion of c-Fos cell counts in individual brain regions to the total cell counts throughout the brain. This methodology considers variations in overall c-Fos cell counts across animals, effectively mitigating potential biases due to differential global activation levels across subjects.

      Furthermore, our direct comparison of differences in c-Fos cell counts between ISO, KET, and their respective control groups in Figures 4 and 5 addresses your concerns about potential decreases in activation. Notably, we did not identify any brain regions with significant suppression in these figures, which is consistent with the trends observed post-normalization in Figure 2C.

      Given your feedback, we conducted another PCA using cell densities for each region (counts/mm3). However, we found significant variability and non-normal distribution of c-Fos density across the groups, leading to extensive data dispersion. Consequently, normalizing the cell counts across regions and then applying a logarithmic transformation before PCA might be more appropriate.

      Author response image 4.

      Additionally, our exploration of regional activation patterns using PCA analysis for ISO and KET separately, based on the logarithm ratio of the c-Fos density, revealed that there was no distinct clustering feature among the different brain regions (as illustrated in Author response image 5: colors represented distinct brain regions, while the shapes were indicative of different clusters). This observation further suggests that our original statistical approach might be more suitable.

      Author response image 5.

      3) Critical problem: The authors include a control group for each anesthetic (ketamine vs. saline, isofluorane vs. homecage) but most analyses do not make use of the control groups or directly compare Fos+ counts across the groups. Strictly speaking, they should have compared relative levels of induction by ketamine versus induction by isoflurane using ANOVAs. Instead, each type of induction was separate from the other. This does not account for increased variability in the ketamine versus isoflurane groups. There is no mention in the Statistics section or in Results section that any multiple comparison corrections were used. It appears that the authors only used Students t-test for each region and did not perform any corrections.

      We appreciate the reviewer's insights and have addressed your concerns:

      Given the pronounced difference in c-Fos cell count expression between the KET and ISO groups, a direct comparison of Fos+ counts may not effectively capture their inherent disparities. To better highlight these distinctions, we used the logarithm ratio of c-Fos density in our PCA analysis (Figure 3), mitigating potential disparities in overall cell counts between samples and emphasizing relative variations. However, in response to your feedback, we've included additional analyses. Author response image 6 depicts the c-Fos density (cells/mm^3) across different brain regions for the home cage, ISO, saline, and KET groups, with regions like the cerebral cortex, cerebral nuclei, thalamus, and others differentiated by shaded backgrounds. Data are represented as mean ± SEM. We performed a one-way ANOVA followed by Tukey’s post hoc test, marking significant differences between ISO and KET with asterisks: P < 0.001, P < 0.01, P < 0.05.

      Regarding multiple comparison corrections, we've conducted thorough analyses on the data in Figure 2C and Figures 4, 5, and 6, implementing multiple comparison corrections. The detailed methodology is provided in the “Statistical analysis” section.

      Author response image 6.

      4) Figures 4 and 5 show brain regions 'significantly activated' following KET or ISO respectively, but again a subset of regions are shown and the stats seem to be t-tests with no multiple comparisons correction. It would help to show these two figures side by side, include the same regions, and keep the y axis ranges similar so the reader can easily compare the 'activation patterns' across the two treatments. Indeed, it looks like KET/Saline induced activation is an order or magnitude or two higher than ISO/Homecage. I would also recommend that this be the first data figure before any other analyses and maybe further analysis could be restricted to regions that are significantly changed in following KET or ISO here.

      Thank you for your constructive feedback regarding Figures 4 and 5.

      Comparison and Presentation of Figures 4 and 5: We acknowledge your suggestion to present these figures side by side for easier comparison. In the supplementary figure provided in the previous question, we've placed Figures 4 and 5 adjacent to each other, with consistent y-axis ranges, ensuring that readers can make direct comparisons between the activation patterns elicited by KET and ISO.

      Statistical Concerns and Region Selection: As mentioned in our previous response, we have conducted multiple comparison corrections on the data presented in Figures 4 and 5. Detailed procedures are elaborated in the “Statistical analysis” section. We believe this approach addresses your concerns regarding the use of t-tests without corrections for multiple comparisons.

      Difference in Activation Levels: We observed that the c-Fos activation due to KET is significantly higher than that from ISO. When presented side-by-side using the same scale, ISO activations appear less prominent, potentially mask subtle differences in the activation patterns of ISO, particularly if both KET and ISO showed changes in the same direction in certain brain regions but differed in magnitude. To address this, we used the proportion of c-Fos cell counts in Figure 2C, the logarithm ratio of c-Fos density in Figure 2A and Figure 3. This method emphasizes the relative changes, rather than absolute values, giving a more balanced view of the effects of each treatment.

      5) Analyses in Figure 6 and 7 are interesting but again the choice of regions to include is unclear and makes interpreting the results impossible. For example, in Figure 7 it is unclear why the list of regions in bar graphs showing Degree and Betweenness Centrality are not the same even within a single row?

      Thank you for your pertinent observation. The choice of brain regions in Figures 6 and 7 was carefully determined based on two main criteria: regions that were significantly activated by ISO or KET within the scope of our study, and those previously reported to be associated with anesthesia mechanisms and sleep-wake regulation.

      Regarding your second concern on Figure 7, the discrepancies observed in the x-axes of the bar graphs arise from our methodological approach. We prioritized presenting the top 20% of regions based on their Degree or Betweenness Centrality values. By separately ranking these regions from highest to lowest, the regions presented for each metric inherently differ. This approach was taken to elucidate nodes that consistently emerge as significant across both metrics, thereby highlighting core nodes in the functional network. Were we to use a consistent x-axis without this ranking, it would not only necessitate a more extensive presentation but might also dilute the emphasis on key information. To clarify this methodology and its rationale for our readers, we have expanded upon this in the manuscript at Line 243.

      We hope these clarifications address your concerns and facilitate a clearer understanding of our findings.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor points

      1) In Table 1: the separation of which substructures belong to which brain structure is not clear

      2) Line 132 on page 3 seems to repeat the sentence earlier in the paragraph "KET predominantly affects brain regions within the cerebral cortex (CTX), while significantly inhibiting the hypothalamus, midbrain, and hindbrain."

      3) Typos

      a) Line 99/100 and 130 Central nucleus (CNU) should be cerebral nucleus

      b) Comma on line 166

      c) Fig. 4D: KET instead of Keta

      d) Line 263 "ep"

      e) Line 332: 35" "ml (add space)

      4) Will data and code be made available?

      Thank you for your detailed feedback.

      1. We have revised Table 1 to clarify which substructures belong to which brain structures.

      2. We acknowledge the redundancy and have now edited line 139 on page 3 to remove the repeated sentence regarding the effects of KET on brain regions.

      3. We have addressed the typos you pointed out:

      a. The terms "Central nucleus (CNU)" have been corrected to "cerebral nucleus."

      b. The comma issue on line 166 has been rectified.

      c. In Fig. 4D, we have corrected "Keta" to "KET."

      d. We have corrected the typo "ep" on line 263.

      e. A space has been added between "35" and "ml" on line 332 as you indicated.

      1. Regarding the availability of data and code, we are currently conducting additional analyses related to this study. Once these analyses are completed, we will be more than happy to make the data and code available.

      Thank you for assisting us in improving our manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments:

      6) The term 'whole-brain mapping' in the title suggests that the mapping was performed on 'intact brains' where in fact serial sections were used here. Maybe the authors could change to 'brain-wide mapping' to align better with the study.

      Thank you for your insightful comments.

      We have revised the title as suggested, changing "whole-brain mapping" to "brain-wide mapping".

      7) It is unclear if the mice were kept under anesthesia for the 90-min duration and how the authors monitored the level of sedation. Additionally, if the KET mice were already sedated why were they further sedated with ISO before perfusions and tissue extraction? The methods should be clarified and any potential confounds discussed.

      To maintain consistency in the experimental protocol and to reduce stress reactions in the mice, ISO was used before perfusion in all cases. However, this does not affect c-Fos expression as the expression of c-Fos protein starts 20-30 minutes after stimulation (Lara Aparicio, S Y, et al., NeuroSci, 2022; 3(4): 687-702).

      We appreciate your guidance in enhancing the clarity of our manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Recommendation: Minor corrections.

      1) The authors should delve deeper into the molecular mechanisms underlying the observed effects, particularly the changes associated with NMDA and GABA receptors. Exploring these mechanisms would provide a more comprehensive understanding of how Ketamine and Isoflurane modulate neural activity and induce anesthesia.

      2) The clinical relevance of these findings has not been sufficiently addressed. It would be valuable to elaborate on how the current research outcomes could potentially lead to changes in current anesthesia practices. For instance, identifying the distinct pathways of action for Ketamine and Isoflurane could aid anesthesiologists in selecting the most appropriate anesthetic based on the specific needs of individual patients or surgical procedures.

      3) Both Ketamine and Isoflurane have been associated with neurotoxicity. It is important to discuss how the c-Fos activation induced by these anesthetics could contribute, at least partially, to anesthesia-related neurotoxicity. Examining the potential neurotoxic effects would provide a more comprehensive understanding of the risks associated with these anesthetics and aid in the development of safer anesthesia protocols.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions.

      Regarding the three points (1, 2, and 3) you've raised, we fully recognize their significance. In the current study, our primary focus was on the differential impacts of Isoflurane and Ketamine on widespread c-Fos expression in the brain. However, we indeed acknowledge the importance of delving deeper into these mechanisms and their clinical relevance. Therefore, we intend to explore these critical issues in greater detail in our future research endeavors.

      We appreciate your feedback, which provides constructive guidance for our subsequent research directions.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Thank you and the reviewers for further providing constructive comments and suggestions on our manuscript. On behalf of all the co-authors, I have enclosed a revised version of the above referenced paper. Below, I have merged similar public reviews and recommendations (if applicable) from each reviewer and provided point-by-point responses.

      Reviewer #1:

      People can perform a wide variety of different tasks, and a long-standing question in cognitive neuroscience is how the properties of different tasks are represented in the brain. The authors develop an interesting task that mixes two different sources of difficulty, and find that the brain appears to represent this mixture on a continuum, in the prefrontal areas involved in resolving task difficulty. While these results are interesting and in several ways compelling, they overlap with previous findings and rely on novel statistical analyses that may require further validation.

      Strengths

      1. The authors present an interesting and novel task for combining the contributions of stimulus-stimulus and stimulus-response conflict. While this mixture has been measured in the multi-source interference task (MSIT), this task provides a more graded mixture between these two sources of difficulty.

      2. The authors do a good job triangulating regions that encoding conflict similarity, looking for the conjunction across several different measures of conflict encoding. These conflict measures use several best-practice approaches towards estimating representational similarity.

      3. The authors quantify several salient alternative hypothesis and systematically distinguish their core results from these alternatives.

      4. The question that the authors tackle is important to cognitive control, and they make a solid contribution.

      The authors have addressed several of my concerns. I appreciate the authors implementing best practices in their neuroimaging stats.

      I think that the concerns that remain in my public review reflect the inherent limitations of the current work. The authors have done a good job working with the dataset they've collected.

      Response: We would like to thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our manuscript and the constructive comments and suggestions. In response to your suggestions and concerns, we have removed the Stroop/Simon-only and the Stroop+Simon models, revised our conclusion and modified the misleading phrases.

      We have provided detailed responses to your comments below.

      1. The evidence from this previous work for mixtures between different conflict sources makes the framing of 'infinite possible types of conflict' feel like a strawman. The authors cite classic work (e.g., Kornblum et al., 1990) that develops a typology for conflict which is far from infinite. I think few people would argue that every possible source and level of difficulty will have to be learned separately. This work provides confirmatory evidence that task difficulty is represented parametrically (e.g., consistent with the n-back, MOT, and random dot motion literature).

      notes for my public concerns.

      In their response, the authors say:

      'If each combination of the Stroop-Simon combination is regarded as a conflict condition, there would be infinite combinations, and it is our major goal to investigate how these infinite conflict conditions are represented effectively in a space with finite dimensions.'

      I do think that this is a strawman. The paper doesn't make a strong case that this position ('infinite combinations') is widely held in the field. There is previous work (e.g., n-back, multiple object tracking, MSIT, dot motion) that has already shown parametric encoding of task difficulty. This paper provides confirmatory evidence, using an interesting new task, that demand are parametric, but does not provide a major theoretical advance.

      Response: We agree that the previous expression may have seemed somewhat exaggerative. While it is not “infinite”, recent research indeed suggests that the cognitive control shows domain-specificity across various “domains”, including conflict types (Egner, 2008), sensory modalities (Yang et al., 2017), task-irrelevant stimuli (Spape et al., 2008), and task sets (Hazeltine et al., 2011), to name a few.

      These findings collectively support the notion that cognitive control is contextspecific (Bream et al., 2014). That is, cognitive control can be tuned and associated with different (and potentially large numbers of) contexts. Recently, Kikumoto and Mayr (2020) demonstrated that combinations of stimulus, rule and response in the same task formed separatable, conjunctive representations. They further showed that these conjunctive representations facilitate performance. This is in line with the idea that each stimulus-location combination in the present task may be represented separately in a domain-specific manner. Moreover, domain-general task representation can also become domain-specific with learning, which further increases the number of domain-specific conjunctive representations (Mill et al., 2023). In line with the domain-specific account of cognitive control, we referred to the “infinite combinations” in our previous response to emphasize the extreme case of domainspecificity. However, recognizing that the term “infinite” may lead to ambiguity, we have replaced it with phrases such as “a large number of”, “hugely varied”, in our revised manuscript.

      We appreciate the reviewer for highlighting the potential connection of our work to existing literature that showed the parametric encoding of task difficulty (e.g., Dagher et al., 1999; Ritz & Shenhav, 2023). For instance, in Ritz et al.’s (2023) study, they parametrically manipulated target difficulty based on consistent ratios of dot color, and found that the difficulty was encoded in the caudal part of dorsal anterior cingulate cortex. Analogically, in our study, the “difficulty” pertains to the behavioral congruency effect that we modulated within the spatial Stroop and Simon dimensions. Notably, we did identify univariate effects in the right dmPFC and IPS associated with the difficulty in the Simon dimension. This parametric effect may lend support to our cognitive space hypothesis, although we exercised caution in interpreting their significance due to the absence of a clear brain-behavioral relevance in these regions. We have added the connection of our work to prior literature in the discussion. The parametric encoding of conflict also mirrors prior research showing the parametric encoding of task demands (Dagher et al., 1999; Ritz & Shenhav, 2023).

      However, our analyses extend beyond solely testing the parametric encoding of difficulty. Instead, we focused on the multivariate representation of different conflict types, which we believe is independent from the univariate parametric encoding. Unlike the univariate encoding that relies on the strength within one dimension, the multivariate representation of conflict types incorporates both the spatial Stroop and Simon dimensions. Furthermore, we found that similar difficulty levels did not yield similar conflict representation, as indicated by the low similarity between the spatial Stroop and Simon conditions, despite both showing a similar level of congruency effect (Fig. S1). Additionally, we also observed an interaction between conflict similarity and difficulty (i.e., congruency, Fig. 4B/D), such that the conflict similarity effect was more pronounced when conflict was present. Therefore, we believe that our findings make contribution to the literature beyond the difficulty effect.

      Reference:

      Egner, T. (2008). Multiple conflict-driven control mechanisms in the human brain. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 12(10), 374-380. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tics.2008.07.001

      Yang, G., Nan, W., Zheng, Y., Wu, H., Li, Q., & Liu, X. (2017). Distinct cognitive control mechanisms as revealed by modality-specific conflict adaptation effects. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Perception and Performance, 43(4), 807-818. https://doi.org/10.1037/xhp0000351

      Spapé MM, Hommel B (2008). He said, she said: episodic retrieval induces conflict adaptation in an auditory Stroop task. Psychonomic Bulletin Review,15(6):1117-21. https://doi.org/10.3758/PBR.15.6.1117

      Hazeltine E, Lightman E, Schwarb H, Schumacher EH (2011). The boundaries of sequential modulations: evidence for set-level control. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Perception & Performance. 2011 Dec;37(6):1898-914. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0024662

      Braem, S., Abrahamse, E. L., Duthoo, W., & Notebaert, W. (2014). What determines the specificity of conflict adaptation? A review, critical analysis, and proposed synthesis. Frontiers in Psychology, 5, 1134. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2014.01134

      Kikumoto A, Mayr U. (2020). Conjunctive representations that integrate stimuli, responses, and rules are critical for action selection. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 117(19):10603-10608. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1922166117.

      Mill, R. D., & Cole, M. W. (2023). Neural representation dynamics reveal computational principles of cognitive task learning. bioRxiv. https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.06.27.546751

      Dagher, A., Owen, A. M., Boecker, H., & Brooks, D. J. (1999). Mapping the network for planning: a correlational PET activation study with the Tower of London task. Brain, 122 ( Pt 10), 1973-1987. https://doi.org/10.1093/brain/122.10.1973

      Ritz, H., & Shenhav, A. (2023). Orthogonal neural encoding of targets and distractors supports multivariate cognitive control. https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.12.01.518771

      1. (Public Reviews) The degree of Stroop vs Simon conflict is perfectly negatively correlated across conditions. This limits their interpretation of an integrated cognitive space, as they cannot separately measure Stroop and Simon effects. The author's control analyses have limited ability to overcome this task limitation. While these results are consistent with parametric encoding, they cannot adjudicate between combined vs separated representations.

      (Recommendations) I think that it is still an issue that the task's two features (stroop and simon conflict) are perfectly correlated. This fundamentally limits their ability to measure the similarity in these features. The authors provide several control analyses, but I think these are limited.

      Response: We need to acknowledge that the spatial Stroop and Simon components in the five conflict conditions were not “perfectly” correlated, with r = –0.89. This leaves some room for the preliminary model comparison to adjudicate between these models. However, it’s essential to note that conclusions based on these results must be tempered. In line with the reviewer’s observation, we agree that the high correlation between the two conflict sources posed a potential limitation on our ability to independently investigate the contribution of spatial Stroop and Simon conflicts. Therefore, in addition to the limitation we have previously acknowledged, we have now further revised our conclusion and adjusted our expressions accordingly.

      Specifically, we now regard the parametric encoding of cognitive control not as direct evidence of the cognitive space view but as preliminary evidence that led us to propose this hypothesis, which requires further testing. Notably, we have also modified the title from “Conflicts are represented in a cognitive space to reconcile domain-general and domain-specific cognitive control” to “Conflicts are parametrically encoded: initial evidence for a cognitive space view to reconcile the debate of domain-general and domain-specific cognitive control”. Also, we revised the conclusion as: In sum, we showed that the cognitive control can be parametrically encoded in the right dlPFC and guides cognitive control to adjust goal-directed behavior. This finding suggests that different cognitive control states may be encoded in an abstract cognitive space, which reconciles the long-standing debate between the domain-general and domain-specific views of cognitive control and provides a parsimonious and more broadly applicable framework for understanding how our brains efficiently and flexibly represents multiple task settings.

      From Recommendations The authors perform control analyses that test stroop-only and simon-only models. However, these analyses use a totally different similarity metric, that's based on set intersection rather than geometry. This metric had limited justification or explanation, and it's not clear whether these models fit worse because of the similarity metric. Even here, Simon-only model fit better than Stroop+Simon model. The dimensionality analyses may reflect the 1d manipulation by the authors (i.e. perfectly corrected stroop and simon effects).

      Response: The Jaccard measure is the most suitable method we can conceive of for assessing the similarity between two conflicts when establishing the Stroop-only and Simon-only models, achieved by projecting them onto the vertical or horizontal axes, respectively (Author response image 1A). This approach offers two advantages. First, the Jaccard similarity combines both similarity (as reflected by the numerator) and distance (reflected by the difference between denominator and numerator) without bias towards either. Second, the Jaccard similarity in our design is equivalent to the cosine similarity because the denominator in the cosine similarity is identical to the denominator in the Jaccard similarity (both are the radius of the circle, Author response image 1B).

      Author response image 1.

      Definition of Jaccard similarity. A) Two conflicts (1 and 2) are projected onto the spatial Stroop/Simon axis in the Stroop/Simon-only model, respectively. The Jaccard similarity for Stroop-only and Simon-only model are and respectively. Letters a-d are the projected vectors from the two conflicts to the two axes. Blue and red colors indicate the conflict conditions. Shorter vectors are the intersection and longer vectors are the union. B) According to the cosine similarity model, the similarity is defined as , where e is the projected vector from conflict 1 to conflict 2, and g is the vector of conflict 1. The Jaccard similarity for this case is defined by , where f is the projector vector from conflict 2 to itself. Because f = g in our design, the Jaccard similarity is equivalent to the cosine similarity.

      Therefore, we believe that the model comparisons between cosine similarity model and the Stroop/Simon-Only models were equitable. However, we acknowledge the reviewer’s and other reviewers’ concerns about the correlation between spatial Stroop and Simon conflicts, which reduces the space to one dimension (1d) and limits our ability to distinguish between the Stroop-only and Simon-only models, as well as between Stroop+Simon and cosine similarity models. While these distinctions are undoubtedly important for understanding the geometry of the cognitive space, we recognize that they go beyond the major objective of this study, that is, to differentiate the cosine similarity model from domain-general/specific models. Therefore, we have chosen to exclude the Stroop-only, Simon-only and Stroop+Simon models in our revised manuscript.

      Something that raised additional concerns are the RSMs in the key region of interest (Fig S5). The pure stroop task appears to be represented very differently from all of the conditions that include simon conflict.

      Together, I think these limitations reflect the structure of the task and research goals, not the statistical approach (which has been meaningfully improved).

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer for pointing this out. It is essential to clarify that our conclusions were based on the significant similarity modulation effect identified in our statistical analysis using the cosine similarity model, where we did not distinguish between the within-Stroop condition and the other four within-conflict conditions (Fig. 7A, now Fig. 8A). This means that the representation of conflict type was not biased by the seemingly disparities in the values shown here. Moreover, to specifically test the differences between the within-Stroop condition and the other within-conflict conditions, we conducted a mixed-effect model analysis only including trial pairs from the same conflict type. In this analysis, the primary predictor was the cross-condition difference (0 for within-Stroop condition and 1 for other within-conflict conditions). The results showed no significant cross-condition difference in either the incongruent (t = 1.22, p = .23) or the congruent (t = 1.06, p = .29) trials. Thus, we believe the evidence for different similarities is inconclusive in our data and decided not to interpret this numerical difference. We have added this note in the revised figure caption for Figure S5.

      Author response image 2.

      Fig. S5. The stronger conflict type similarity effect in incongruent versus congruent conditions. (A) Summary representational similarity matrices for the right 8C region in incongruent (left) and congruent (right) conditions, respectively. Each cell represents the averaged Pearson correlation of cells with the same conflict type and congruency in the 1400×1400 matrix. Note that the seemingly disparities in the values of Stroop and other within-conflict cells (i.e., the diagonal) did not reach significance for either incongruent (t = 1.22, p = .23) or congruent (t = 1.06, p = .29) trials. (2) Scatter plot showing the averaged neural similarity (Pearson correlation) as a function of conflict type similarity in both conditions. The values in both A and B are calculated from raw Pearson correlation values, in contrast to the z-scored values in Fig. 4D.

      Minor:

      • In the analysis of similarity_orientation, the df is very large (~14000). Here, and throughout, the df should be reflective of the population of subjects (ie be less than the sample size).

      Response: The large degrees of freedom (df) in our analysis stem from the fact that we utilized a mixed-effect linear model, incorporating all data points (a total of 400×35=14000). In mixed-effect models, the df is determined by subtracting the number of fixed effects (in our case, 7) from the total number of observations. Notably, we are in line with the literature that have reported the df in this manner (e.g., Iravani et al., 2021; Schmidt & Weissman, 2015; Natraj et al., 2022).

      Reference:

      Iravani B, Schaefer M, Wilson DA, Arshamian A, Lundström JN. The human olfactory bulb processes odor valence representation and cues motor avoidance behavior. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2021 Oct 19;118(42):e2101209118. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2101209118.

      Schmidt, J.R., Weissman, D.H. Congruency sequence effects and previous response times: conflict adaptation or temporal learning?. Psychological Research 80, 590–607 (2016). https://doi.org/10.1007/s00426-015-0681-x.

      Natraj, N., Silversmith, D. B., Chang, E. F., & Ganguly, K. (2022). Compartmentalized dynamics within a common multi-area mesoscale manifold represent a repertoire of human hand movements. Neuron, 110(1), 154-174. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2021.10.002.

      • it would improve the readability if there was more didactic justification for why analyses are done a certain way (eg justifying the jaccard metric). This will help less technically-savvy readers.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. However, considering the Stroop/Simon-only models in our design may not be a valid approach for distinguishing the contributions of the Stroop/Simon components, we have decided not to include the Jaccard metrics in our revised manuscript.

      Besides, to improve the readability, we have moved Figure S4 to the main text (labeled as Figure 7), and added the domain-general/domain-specific schematics in Figure 8.

      Author response image 3.

      Figure 8. Schematic of key RSMs. (A) and (B) show the orthogonality between conflict similarity and orientation RSMs. The within-subject RSMs (e.g., Group1-Group1) for conflict similarity and orientation are all the same, but the cross-group correlations (e.g., Group2-Group1) are different. Therefore, we can separate the contribution of these two effects when including them as different regressors in the same linear regression model. (C) and (D) show the two alternative models. Like the cosine model (A), within-group trial pairs resemble between-group trial pairs in these two models. The domain-specific model is an identity matrix. The domain-general model is estimated from the absolute difference of behavioral congruency effect, but scaled to 0(lowest similarity)-1(highest similarity) to aid comparison. The plotted matrices here include only one subject each from Group 1 and Group 2. Numbers 1-5 indicate the conflict type conditions, for spatial Stroop, StHSmL, StMSmM, StLSmH, and Simon, respectively. The thin lines separate four different sub-conditions, i.e., target arrow (up, down) × congruency (incongruent, congruent), within each conflict type.

      Reviewer #2:

      This study examines the construct of "cognitive spaces" as they relate to neural coding schemes present in response conflict tasks. The authors use a novel experimental design in which different types of response conflict (spatial Stroop, Simon) are parametrically manipulated. These conflict types are hypothesized to be encoded jointly, within an abstract "cognitive space", in which distances between task conditions depend only on the similarity of conflict types (i.e., where conditions with similar relative proportions of spatial-Stroop versus Simon conflicts are represented with similar activity patterns). Authors contrast such a representational scheme for conflict with several other conceptually distinct schemes, including a domain-general, domain-specific, and two task-specific schemes. The authors conduct a behavioral and fMRI study to test which of these coding schemes is used by prefrontal cortex. Replicating the authors' prior work, this study demonstrates that sequential behavioral adjustments (the congruency sequence effect) are modulated as a function of the similarity between conflict types. In fMRI data, univariate analyses identified activation in left prefrontal and dorsomedial frontal cortex that was modulated by the amount of Stroop or Simon conflict present, and representational similarity analyses (RSA) that identified coding of conflict similarity, as predicted under the cognitive space model, in right lateral prefrontal cortex.

      This study tackles an important question regarding how distinct types of conflict might be encoded in the brain within a computationally efficient representational format. The ideas postulated by the authors are interesting ones and the statistical methods are generally rigorous.

      Response: We would like to express our sincere appreciation for the reviewer’s positive evaluation of our manuscript and the constructive comments and suggestions. In response to your suggestions and concerns, we excluded the StroopOnly, SimonOnly and Stroop+Simon models, and added the schematic of domain-general/specific model RSMs. We have provided detailed responses to your comments below.

      The evidence supporting the authors claims, however, is limited by confounds in the experimental design and by lack of clarity in reporting the testing of alternative hypotheses within the method and results.

      1. Model comparison

      The authors commendably performed a model comparison within their study, in which they formalized alternative hypotheses to their cognitive space hypothesis. We greatly appreciate the motivation for this idea and think that it strengthened the manuscript. Nevertheless, some details of this model comparison were difficult for us to understand, which in turn has limited our understanding of the strength of the findings.

      The text indicates the domain-general model was computed by taking the difference in congruency effects per conflict condition. Does this refer to the "absolute difference" between congruency effects? In the rest of this review, we assume that the absolute difference was indeed used, as using a signed difference would not make sense in this setting. Nevertheless, it may help readers to add this information to the text.

      Response: We apologize for any confusion. The “difference” here indeed refers to the “absolute difference” between congruency effects. We have now clarified this by adding the word “absolute” accordingly.

      "Therefore, we defined the domain-general matrix as the absolute difference in their congruency effects indexed by the group-averaged RT in Experiment 2."

      Regarding the Stroop-Only and Simon-Only models, the motivation for using the Jaccard metric was unclear. From our reading, it seems that all of the other models --- the cognitive space model, the domain-general model, and the domain-specific model --- effectively use a Euclidean distance metric. (Although the cognitive space model is parameterized with cosine similarities, these similarity values are proportional to Euclidean distances because the points all lie on a circle. And, although the domain-general model is parameterized with absolute differences, the absolute difference is equivalent to Euclidean distance in 1D.) Given these considerations, the use of Jaccard seems to differ from the other models, in terms of parameterization, and thus potentially also in terms of underlying assumptions. Could authors help us understand why this distance metric was used instead of Euclidean distance? Additionally, if Jaccard must be used because this metric seems to be non-standard in the use of RSA, it would likely be helpful for many readers to give a little more explanation about how it was calculated.

      Response: We believe that the Jaccard similarity measure is consistent with the Cosine similarity measure. The Jaccard similarity is calculated as the intersection divided by the union. To define the similarity of two conflicts in the Stroop-only and Simon-only models, we first project them onto the vertical or horizontal axes, respectively (as shown in Author response image 1A). The Jaccard similarity in our design is equivalent to the cosine similarity because the denominator in the Jaccard similarity is identical to the denominator in the cosine similarity (both are the radius of the circle, Author response image 1B).

      However, it is important to note that a cosine similarity cannot be defined when conflicts are projected onto spatial Stroop or Simon axis simultaneously. Therefore, we used the Jaccard similarity in the previous version of our manuscript.

      Author response image 4.

      Definition of Jaccard similarity. A) Two conflicts (1 and 2) are projected onto the spatial Stroop/Simon axis in the Stroop/Simon-only model, respectively. The Jaccard similarity for Stroop-only and Simon-only model are and respectively. Letters a-d are the projected vectors from the two conflicts to the two axes. Blue and red colors indicate the conflict conditions. Shorter vectors are the intersection and longer vectors are the union. B) According to the cosine similarity model, the similarity is defined as , where e is the projected vector from conflict 1 to conflict 2, and g is the vector of conflict 1. The Jaccard similarity for this case is defined by , where f is the projector vector from conflict 2 to itself. Because f = g in our design, the Jaccard similarity is equivalent to the cosine similarity.

      However, we agree with the reviewer’s and other reviewers’ concern that the correlation between spatial Stroop and Simon conflicts makes it less likely to distinguish the Stroop+Simon from cosine similarity models. While distinguishing them is essential to understand the detailed geometry of the cognitive space, it is beyond our major purpose, that is, to distinguish the cosine similarity model with the domain-general/specific models. Therefore, we have chosen to exclude the Stroop-only, Simon-only and Stroop+Simon models from our revised manuscript.

      When considering parameterizing the Stroop-Only and Simon-Only models with Euclidean distances, one concern we had is that the joint inclusion of these models might render the cognitive space model unidentifiable due to collinearity (i.e., the sum of the Stroop-Only and Simon-Only models could be collinear with the cognitive space model). Could the authors determine whether this is the case? This issue seems to be important, as the presence of such collinearity would suggest to us that the design is incapable of discriminating those hypotheses as parameterized.

      Response: We acknowledge that our design does not allow for a complete differentiation between the parallel encoding (StroopOnly+SimonOnly) model and the cognitive space model, given their high correlation (r = 0.85). However, it is important to note that the StroopOnly+SimonOnly model introduces more free parameters, making the model fitting poorer than the cognitive space model.

      Additionally, the cognitive space model also shows high correlations with the StroopOnly and SimonOnly models (both rs = 0.66). It is crucial to emphasize that our study’s primary goal does not involve testing the parallel encoding hypothesis (through the StroopOnly+SimonOnly model). As a result, we have chosen to remove the model comparison results with the StroopOnly, SimonOnly and StroopOnly+SimonOnly models. Instead, the cognitive space model shows lower correlation with the purely domain-general (r = −0.16) and domain-specific (r = 0.46) models.

      1. Issue of uniquely identifying conflict coding

      We certainly appreciate the efforts that authors have taken to address potential confounders for encoding of conflict in their original submission. We broach this question not because we wish authors to conduct additional control analyses, but because this issue seems to be central to the thesis of the manuscript and we would value reading the authors' thoughts on this issue in the discussion.

      To summarize our concerns, conflict seems to be a difficult variable to isolate within aggregate neural activity, at least relative to other variables typically studied in cognitive control, such as task-set or rule coding. This is because it seems reasonable to expect that many more nuisance factors covary with conflict -- such as univariate activation, level of cortical recruitment, performance measures, arousal --- than in comparison with, for example, a well-designed rule manipulation. Controlling for some of these factors post-hoc through regression is commendable (as authors have done here), but such a method will likely be incomplete and can provide no guarantees on the false positive rate.

      Relatedly, the neural correlates of conflict coding in fMRI and other aggregate measures of neural activity are likely of heterogeneous provenance, potentially including rate coding (Fu et al., 2022), temporal coding (Smith et al., 2019), modulation of coding of other more concrete variables (Ebitz et al., 2020, 10.1101/2020.03.14.991745; see also discussion and reviews of Tang et al., 2016, 10.7554/eLife.12352), or neuromodulatory effects (e.g., Aston-Jones & Cohen, 2005). Some of these origins would seem to be consistent with "explicit" coding of conflict (conflict as a representation), but others would seem to be more consistent with epiphenomenal coding of conflict (i.e., conflict as an emergent process). Again, these concerns could apply to many variables as measured via fMRI, but at the same time, they seem to be more pernicious in the case of conflict. So, if authors consider these issues to be germane, perhaps they could explicitly state in the discussion whether adopting their cognitive space perspective implies a particular stance on these issues, how they interpret their results with respect to these issues, and if relevant, qualify their conclusions with uncertainty on these issues.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments regarding the representation and process of conflict.

      First, we agree that the conflict is not simply a pure feature like a stimulus but often arises from the interaction (e.g., dimension overlap) between two or more aspects. For example, in the manual Stroop, conflict emerges from the inconsistent semantic information between color naming and word reading. Similarly, other higher-order cognitive processes such as task-set also underlie the relationship between concrete aspects. For instance, in a face/house categorization task, the taskset is the association between face/house and the responses. When studying these higher-order processes, it is often impossible to completely isolate them from bottomup features. Therefore, methods like the representational similarity analysis and regression models are among the limited tools available to attempt to dissociate these concrete factors from conflict representation. While not perfect, this approach has been suggested and utilized in practice (Freund et al., 2021).

      Second, we agree that conflict can be both a representation and an emerging process. These two perspectives are not necessarily contradictory. According to David Marr’s influential three-level theory (Marr, 1982), representation is the algorithm of the process to achieve a goal based on the input. Therefore, a representation can refer to not only a static stimulus (e.g., the visual representation of an image), but also a dynamic process. Building on this perspective, we posit that the representation of cognitive control consists of an array of dynamic representations embedded within the overall process. A similar idea has been proposed that the abstract task profiles can be progressively constructed as a representation in our brain (Kikumoto & Mayr, 2020).

      We have incorporated this discussion into the manuscript:

      "Recently an interesting debate has arisen concerning whether cognitive control should be considered as a process or a representation (Freund, Etzel, et al., 2021). Traditionally, cognitive control has been predominantly viewed as a process. However, the study of its representation has gained more and more attention. While it may not be as straightforward as the visual representation (e.g., creating a mental image from a real image in the visual area), cognitive control can have its own form of representation. An influential theory, Marr’s (1982) three-level model proposed that representation serves as the algorithm of the process to achieve a goal based on the input. In other words, representation can encompass a dynamic process rather than being limited to static stimuli. Building on this perspective, we posit that the representation of cognitive control consists of an array of dynamic representations embedded within the overall process. A similar idea has been proposed that the representation of task profiles can be progressively constructed with time in the brain (Kikumoto & Mayr, 2020)."

      Reference:

      Freund, M. C., Etzel, J. A., & Braver, T. S. (2021). Neural Coding of Cognitive Control: The Representational Similarity Analysis Approach. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 25(7), 622-638. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tics.2021.03.011

      Marr, D. C. (1982). Vision: A computational investigation into human representation and information processing. New York: W.H. Freeman.

      Kikumoto A, Mayr U. (2020). Conjunctive representations that integrate stimuli, responses, and rules are critical for action selection. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 117(19):10603-10608. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1922166117.

      1. Interpretation of measured geometry in 8C

      We appreciate the inclusion of the measured similarity matrices of area 8C, the key area the results focus on, to the supplemental, as this allows for a relatively model-agnostic look at a portion of the data. Interestingly, the measured similarity matrix seems to mismatch the cognitive space model in a potentially substantive way. Although the model predicts that the "pure" Stroop and Simon conditions will have maximal self-similarity (i.e., the Stroop-Stroop and Simon-Simon cells on the diagonal), these correlations actually seem to be the lowest, by what appears to be a substantial margin (particularly the Stroop-Stroop similarities). What should readers make of this apparent mismatch? Perhaps authors could offer their interpretation on how this mismatch could fit with their conclusions.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer for bringing this to our attention. It is essential to clarify that our conclusions were based on the significant similarity modulation effect observed in our statistical analysis using the cosine similarity model, where we did not distinguish between the within-Stroop condition and the other four withinconflict conditions (Fig. 7A). This means that the representation of conflict type was not biased by the seemingly disparities in the values shown here. Moreover, to specifically address the potential differences between the within-Stroop condition and the other within-conflict conditions, we conducted a mixed-effect model. In this analysis, the primary predictor was the cross-condition difference (0 for within-Stroop condition and 1 for other within-conflict conditions). The results showed no significant cross-condition difference in either the incongruent trials (t = 1.22, p = .23) or the congruent (t = 1.06, p = .29) trials. Thus, we believe the evidence for different similarities is inconclusive in our data and decided not to interpret this numerical difference.

      We have added this note in the revised figure caption for Figure S5.

      Author response image 5.

      Fig. S5. The stronger conflict type similarity effect in incongruent versus congruent conditions. (A) Summary representational similarity matrices for the right 8C region in incongruent (left) and congruent (right) conditions, respectively. Each cell represents the averaged Pearson correlation of cells with the same conflict type and congruency in the 1400×1400 matrix. Note that the seemingly disparities in the values of Stroop and other within-conflict cells (i.e., the diagonal) did not reach significance for either incongruent (t = 1.22, p = .23) or congruent (t = 1.06, p = .29) trials. (2) Scatter plot showing the averaged neural similarity (Pearson correlation) as a function of conflict type similarity in both conditions. The values in both A and B are calculated from raw Pearson correlation values, in contrast to the z-scored values in Fig. 4D.

      1. It would likely improve clarity if all of the competing models were displayed as summarized RSA matrices in a single figure, similar to (or perhaps combined with) Figure 7.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. We now have incorporated the domain-general and domain-specific models into the Figure 7 (now Figure 8).

      Author response image 6.

      Figure 8. Schematic of key RSMs. (A) and (B) show the orthogonality between conflict similarity and orientation RSMs. The within-subject RSMs (e.g., Group1-Group1) for conflict similarity and orientation are all the same, but the cross-group correlations (e.g., Group2-Group1) are different. Therefore, we can separate the contribution of these two effects when including them as different regressors in the same linear regression model. (C) and (D) show the two alternative models. Like the cosine model (A), within-group trial pairs resemble between-group trial pairs in these two models. The domain-specific model is an identity matrix. The domain-general model is estimated from the absolute difference of behavioral congruency effect, but scaled to 0(lowest similarity)-1(highest similarity) to aid comparison. The plotted matrices here include only one subject each from Group 1 and Group 2. Numbers 1-5 indicate the conflict type conditions, for spatial Stroop, StHSmL, StMSmM, StLSmH, and Simon, respectively. The thin lines separate four different sub-conditions, i.e., target arrow (up, down) × congruency (incongruent, congruent), within each conflict type.

      1. Because this model comparison is key to the main inferences in the study, it might also be helpful for most readers to move all of these RSA model matrices to the main text, instead of in the supplemental.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have moved the Fig. S4 to the main text, labeled as the new Figure 7.

      1. It may be worthwhile to check how robust the observed brain-behavior association (Fig 4C) is to the exclusion of the two datapoints with the lowest neural representation strength measure, as these points look like they have high leverage.

      Response: We calculated the Pearson correlation after excluding the two points and found it does not affect the results too much, with the r = 0.50, p = .003 (compared to the original r = 0.52, p = .001).

      Additionally, we found the two axes were mistakenly shifted in Fig 4C. Therefore, we corrected this error in the revised manuscript. The correlation results would not be influenced.

      Author response image 7.

      Fig. 4. The conflict type effect. (A) Brain regions surviving the Bonferroni correction (p < 0.0001) across the regions (criterion 1). Labeled regions are those meeting the criterion 2. (B) Different encoding of conflict type in the incongruent with congruent conditions. * Bonferroni corrected p < .05. (C) The brain-behavior correlation of the right 8C (criterion 3). The x-axis shows the beta coefficient of the conflict type effect from the RSA, and the y-axis shows the beta coefficient obtained from the behavioral linear model using the conflict similarity to predict the CSE in Experiment 2. (D) Illustration of the different encoding strength of conflict type similarity in incongruent versus congruent conditions of right 8C. The y-axis is derived from the z-scored Pearson correlation coefficient, consistent with the RSA methodology. See Fig. S4B for a plot with the raw Pearson correlation measurement. l = left; r = right.

      Reviewer #3:

      Yang and colleagues investigated whether information on two task-irrelevant features that induce response conflict is represented in a common cognitive space. To test this, the authors used a task that combines the spatial Stroop conflict and the Simon effect. This task reliably produces a beautiful graded congruency sequence effect (CSE), where the cost of congruency is reduced after incongruent trials. The authors measured fMRI to identify brain regions that represent the graded similarity of conflict types, the congruency of responses, and the visual features that induce conflicts. They applied univariate, multivariate, and connectivity analyses to fMRI data to identify brain regions that represent the graded similarity of conflict types, the congruency of responses, and the visual features that induce conflicts. They further directly assessed the dimensionality of represented conflict space.

      The authors identified the right dlPFC (right 8C), which shows 1) stronger encoding of graded similarity of conflicts in incongruent trials and 2) a positive correlation between the strength of conflict similarity type and the CSE on behavior. The dlPFC has been shown to be important for cognitive control tasks. As the dlPFC did not show a univariate parametric modulation based on the higher or lower component of one type of conflict (e.g., having more spatial Stroop conflict or less Simon conflict), it implies that dissimilarity of conflicts is represented by a linear increase or decrease of neural responses. Therefore, the similarity of conflict is represented in multivariate neural responses that combine two sources of conflict.

      The strength of the current approach lies in the clear effect of parametric modulation of conflict similarity across different conflict types. The authors employed a clever cross-subject RSA that counterbalanced and isolated the targeted effect of conflict similarity, decorrelating orientation similarity of stimulus positions that would otherwise be correlated with conflict similarity. A pattern of neural response seems to exist that maps different types of conflict, where each type is defined by the parametric gradation of the yoked spatial Stroop conflict and the Simon conflict on a similarity scale. The similarity of patterns increases in incongruent trials and is correlated with CSE modulation of behavior.

      The main significance of the paper lies in the evidence supporting the use of an organized "cognitive space" to represent conflict information as a general control strategy. The authors thoroughly test this idea using multiple approaches and provide convincing support for their findings. However, the universality of this cognitive strategy remains an open question.

      (Public Reviews) Taken together, this study presents an exciting possibility that information requiring high levels of cognitive control could be flexibly mapped into cognitive map-like representations that both benefit and bias our behavior. Further characterization of the representational geometry and generalization of the current results look promising ways to understand representations for cognitive control.

      Response: We would like to thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our manuscript and for providing constructive comments. In response to your suggestions, we have acknowledged the potential limitation of the design and the cross-subject RSA approach, and incorporated the open questions to the discussions. Please find our detailed responses below.

      The task presented in the study involved two sources of conflict information through a single salient visual input, which might have encouraged the utilization of a common space.

      Response: We agree that the unified visual input in our design may have facilitated the utilization of a common space. However, we believe the stimuli are not necessarily unified in the construction of the common space. To further test the potential interaction between the concrete stimulus setting and the cognitive space representation, it is necessary to use varied stimuli in future research. We have left this as an open question in the discussion:

      Can we effectively map any sources of conflict with completely different stimuli into a single space?

      The similarity space was analyzed at the level of between-individuals (i.e., crosssubject RSA) to mitigate potential confounds in the design, such as congruency and the orientation of stimulus positions. This approach makes it challenging to establish a direct link between the quality of conflict space representation and the patterns of behavioral adaptations within individuals.

      Response: By setting the variables as random effects at the subject level, we have extracted the individual effects that incorporate both the group-level fixed effects and individual-level random effects. We believe this approach yields results that are as reliable, if not more, than effects calculated from individual data only. First, the mixed effect linear (LME) model has included all the individual data, forming the basis for establishing random effects. Therefore, the individual effects derived from this approach inherently reflect the individual-specific effects. To support this notion, we have included a simulation script (accessible in the online file “simulation_LME.mlx” at https://osf.io/rcq8w) to demonstrate the strong consistency between the two approaches (see Author response image 8). In this simulation, we generated random data (Y) for 35 subjects, each containing 20 repeated measurements across 5 conditions. To streamline the simulation, we only included one predictor (X), which was treated as both fixed and random effects at the subject level. We applied two methods to calculate the individual beta coefficient. The first involved extracting individual beta coefficients from the LME model by summing the fixed effect with the subject-specific random effect. The second method was entailed conducting a regression analysis using data from each subject to obtain the slope. We tested their consistency by calculating the Pearson correlation between the derived beta coefficients. This simulation was repeated 100 times.

      Author response image 8.

      The consistent individual beta coefficients between the mixed effect model and the individual regression analysis. A) The distribution of Pearson correlation between the two methods for 100 times. B) An example from the simulation showing the highly correlated results from the two methods. Each data point indicates a subject (n=35).

      Second, the potential difference between the two methods lies in that the LME model have also taken the group-level variance into account, such as the dissociable variances of the conflict similarity and orientation across subject groups. This enabled us to extract relatively cleaner conflict similarity effects for each subject, which we believe can be better linked to the individual behavioral adaptations. Moreover, we have extracted the behavioral adaptations scores (i.e., the similarity modulation effect on CSE) using a similar LME approach. Conducting behavioral analysis solely using individual data would have been less reliable, given the limited sample size of individual data (~32 points per subject). This also motivated us to maintain consistency by extracting individual neural effects using LME models.

      Furthermore, it remains unclear at which cognitive stages during response selection such a unified space is recruited. Can we effectively map any sources of conflict into a single scale? Is this unified space adaptively adjusted within the same brain region? Additionally, does the amount of conflict solely define the dimensions of this unified space across many conflict-inducing tasks? These questions remain open for future studies to address.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer’s constructive open questions. We respond to each of them based on our current understanding.

      1) It remains unclear at which cognitive stages during response selection such a unified space is recruited.

      We anticipate that the cognitive space is recruited to guide the transference of behavioral CSE at two critical stages. The first stage involves the evaluation of control demands, where the representational distance/similarity between previous and current trials influences the adjustment of cognitive control. The second stage pertains to is control execution, where the switch from one control state to another follows a path within the cognitive space. It is worth noting that future studies aiming to address this question may benefit from methodologies with higher temporal resolutions, such as EEG and MEG, to provide more precise insights into the temporal dynamics of the process of cognitive space recruitment.

      2) Can we effectively map any sources of conflict into a single scale?

      It is possible that various sources of conflict can be mapped onto the same space based on their similarity, even if finding such an operational defined similarity may be challenging. However, our results may offer an approach to infer the similarity between two conflicts. One way is to examine their congruency sequence effect (CSE), with a stronger CSE suggesting greater similarity. The other way is to test their representational similarity within the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

      3) Is this unified space adaptively adjusted within the same brain region? We do not have an answer to this question. We showed that the cognitive space does not change with time (Note. S3). What have adjusted is the control demand to resolve the quickly changing conflict conditions from trial to trial. Though, it is an interesting question whether the cognitive space may be altered, for example, when the mental state changes significantly. And if yes, we can further test whether the change of cognitive space is also within the right dlPFC.

      4) Additionally, does the amount of conflict solely define the dimensions of this unified space across many conflict-inducing tasks?

      Our understanding of this comment is that the amount of conflict refers to the number of conflict sources. Based on our current finding, the dimensions of the space are indeed defined by how many different conflict sources are included. However, this would require the different conflict sources are orthogonal. If some sources share some aspects, the cognitive space may collapse to a lower dimension. We have incorporated the first question into the discussion:

      Moreover, we anticipate that the representation of cognitive space is most prominently involved at two critical stages to guide the transference of behavioral CSE. The first stage involves the evaluation of control demands, where the representational distance/similarity between previous and current trials influences the adjustment of cognitive control. The second stage pertains to control execution, where the switch from one control state to another follows a path within the cognitive space. However, we were unable to fully distinguish between these two stages due to the low temporal resolution of fMRI signals in our study. Future research seeking to delve deeper into this question may benefit from methodologies with higher temporal resolutions, such as EEG and MEG.

      We have included the other questions into the manuscript as open questions, calling for future research.

      Several interesting questions remains to be answered. For example, is the dimension of the unified space across conflict-inducing tasks solely determined by the number of conflict sources? Can we effectively map any sources of conflict with completely different stimuli into a single space? Is the cognitive space geometry modulated by the mental state? If yes, what brain regions mediate the change of cognitive space?

      Minor comments:

      • The original comment about out-of-sample predictions to examine the continuity of the space was a suggestion for testing neural representations, not behavior (I apologize for the lack of clarity). Given the low dimensionality of the conflict space shown by the participation ratio, we expect that linear separability exists only among specific combinations of conditions. For example, the pair of conflicts 1 and 5 together is not linearly separable from conflicts 2 and 3. But combined with other results, this is already implied.

      Response: We apologize for the misunderstanding. In fact, performing a prediction analysis using the extensive RSM in our study does presents certain challenges, primarily due to its substantial size (1400x1400) and the intricate nature of the mixed-effect linear model. In our efforts to simplify the prediction process by excluding random effects, we did observe a correlation between the predicted and original values, albeit a relatively small Pearson correlation coefficient of r = 0.024, p < .001. This small correlation can be attributed to two key factors. First, the exclusion of data points impacts not only the conflict similarity regressor but also other regressors within the model, thereby diminishing the predictive power. Secondly, the large amount of data points in the model heightens the risk of overfitting, subsequently reducing the model’s capacity for generalization and increasing the likelihood of unreliable predictions. Given these potential problems, we have opted not to include this prediction in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      The reviewer retained most of their comments from the previous reviewing round. In order to meet these comments and to further examine the dynamic nature of threat omission-related fMRI responses, we now re-analyzed our fMRI results using the single trial estimates. The results of these additional analyses are added below in our response to the recommendations for the authors of reviewer 1. However, we do want to reiterate that there was a factually incorrect statement concerning our design in the reviewer’s initial comments. Specifically, the reviewer wrote that “25% of shocks are omitted, regardless of whether subjects are told that the probability is 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%, or 0%.” We want to repeat that this is not what we did. 100% trials were always reinforced (100% reinforcement rate); 0% trials were never reinforced (0% reinforcement rate). For all other instructed probability levels (25%, 50%, 75%), the stimulation was delivered in 25% of the trials (25% reinforcement rate). We have elaborated on this misconception in our previous letter and have added this information more explicitly in the previous revision of the manuscript (e.g., lines 125-129; 223-224; 486-492).   

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      I do not have any further recommendations, although I believe an analysis of learning-related changes is still possible with the trial-wise estimates from unreinforced trials. The authors' response does not clarify whether they tested for interactions with run, and thus the fact that there are main effects does not preclude learning. I kept my original comments regarding limitations, with the exception of the suggestion to modify the title. 

      We thank the reviewer for this recommendation. In line with their suggestion, we have now reanalyzed our main ROI results using the trial-by-trial estimates we obtained from the firstlevel omission>baseline contrasts. Specifically, we extracted beta-estimates from each ROI and entered them into the same Probability x Intensity x Run LMM we used for the relief and SCR analyses. Results from these analyses (in the full sample) were similar to our main results. For the VTA/SN model, we found main effects of Probability (F = 3.12, p = .04), and Intensity (F = 7.15, p < .001) (in the model where influential outliers were rescored to 2SD from mean). There was no main effect of Run (F = 0.92, p = .43) and no Probability x Run interaction (F = 1.24, p = .28). If the experienced contingency would have interfered with the instructions, there should have been a Probability x Run interaction (with the effect of Probability only being present in the first runs). Since we did not observe such an interaction, our results indicate that even though some learning might still have taken place, the main effect of Probability remained present throughout the task.  

      There is an important side note regarding these analyses: For the first level GLM estimation, we concatenated the functional runs and accounted for baseline differences between runs by adding run-specific intercepts as regressors of no-interest. Hence, any potential main effect of run was likely modeled out at first level. This might explain why, in contrast to the rating and SCR results (see Supplemental Figure 5), we found no main effect of Run. Nevertheless, interaction effects should not be affected by including these run-specific intercepts.

      Note that when we ran the single-trial analysis for the ventral putamen ROI, the effect of intensity became significant (F = 3.89, p = .02). Results neither changed for the NAc, nor the vmPFC ROIs.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Comments on revised version: 

      I want to thank the authors for their thorough and comprehensive work in revising this manuscript. I agree with the authors that learning paradigms might not be a necessity when it comes to study the PE signals, but I don't particularly agree with some of the responses in the rebuttal letter ("Furthermore, conditioning paradigms generally only include one level of aversive outcome: the electrical stimulation is either delivered or omitted."). This is of course correct description for the conditioning paradigm, but the same can be said for an instructed design: the aversive outcome was either delivered or not. That being said, adopting the instructed design itself is legitimate in my opinion. 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have now modified the phrasing of this argument to clarify our reasoning (see lines 102-104: “First, these only included one level of aversive outcome: the electrical stimulation was either delivered at a fixed intensity, or omitted; but the intensity of the stimulation was never experimentally manipulated within the same task.”).  

      The reason why we mentioned that “the aversive outcome is either delivered or omitted” is because in most contemporary conditioning paradigms only one level of aversive US is used. In these cases, it is therefore not possible to investigate the effect of US Intensity. In our paradigm, we included multiple levels of aversive US, allowing us to assess how the level of aversiveness influences threat omission responding. It is indeed true that each level was delivered or not. However, our data clearly (and robustly across experiments, see Willems & Vervliet, 2021) demonstrate that the effects of the instructed and perceived unpleasantness of the US (as operationalized by the mean reported US unpleasantness during the task) on the reported relief and the omission fMRI responses are stronger than the effect of instructed probability.  

      My main concern, which the authors spent quite some length in the rebuttal letter to address, still remains about the validity for different instructed probabilities. Although subjects were told that the trials were independent, the big difference between 75% and 25% would more than likely confuse the subjects, especially given that most of us would fall prey to the Gambler's fallacy (or the law of small numbers) to some degree. When the instruction and subjective experience collides, some form of inference or learning must have occurred, making the otherwise straightforward analysis more complex. Therefore, I believe that a more rigorous/quantitative learning modeling work can dramatically improve the validity of the results. Of course, I also realize how much extra work is needed to append the computational part but without it there is always a theoretical loophole in the current experimental design. 

      We agree with the reviewer that some learning may have occurred in our task. However, we believe the most important question in relation to our study is: to what extent did this learning influence our manipulations of interest?  

      In our reply to reviewer 1, we already showed that a re-analysis of the fMRI results using the trial-by-trial estimates of the omission contrasts revealed no Probability x Run interaction, suggesting that – overall – the probability effect remained stable over the course of the experiment. However, inspired by the alternative explanation that was proposed by this reviewer, we now also assessed the role of the Gambler’s fallacy in a separate set of analyses. Indeed, it is possible that participants start to expect a stimulation more after more time has passed since the last stimulation was experienced. To test this alternative hypothesis, we specified two new regressors that calculated for each trial of each participant how many trials had passed since the last stimulation (or since the beginning of the experiment) either overall (across all trials of all probability types; hence called the overall-lag regressor) or per probability level (across trials of each probability type separately; hence called the lag-per-probability regressor). For both regressors a value of 0 indicates that the previous trial was either a stimulation trial or the start of experiment, a value of 1 means that the last stimulation trial was 2 trials ago, etc.  

      The results of these additional analyses are added in a supplemental note (see supplemental note 6), and referred to in the main text (see lines 231-236: “Likewise, a post-hoc trial-by-trial analysis of the omission-related fMRI activations confirmed that the Probability effect for the VTA/SN activations was stable over the course of the experiment (no Probability x Run interaction) and remained present when accounting for the Gambler’s fallacy (i.e., the possibility that participants start to expect a stimulation more when more time has passed since the last stimulation was experienced) (see supplemental note 6). Overall, these post-hoc analyses further confirm the PE-profile of omission-related VTA/SN responses”.  

      Addition to supplemental material (pages 16-18)

      Supplemental Note 6: The effect of Run and the Gambler’s Fallacy 

      A question that was raised by the reviewers was whether omission-related responses could be influenced by dynamical learning or the Gambler’s Fallacy, which might have affected the effectiveness of the Probability manipulation.  

      Inspired by this question, we exploratorily assessed the role of the Gambler’s Fallacy and the effects of Run in a separate set of analyses. Indeed, it is possible that participants start to expect a stimulation more when more time has passed since the last stimulation was experienced. To test this alternative hypothesis, we specified two new regressors that calculated for each trial of each participant how many trials had passed since the last stimulation (or since the beginning of the experiment) either overall (across all trials of all probability types; hence called the overall-lag regressor) or per probability level (across trials of each probability type separately; hence called the lag-per-probability regressor). For both regressors a value of 0 indicates that the previous trial was either a stimulation trial or the start of experiment, a value of 1 means that the last stimulation trial was 2 trials ago, etc.  

      The new models including these regressors for each omission response type (i.e., omission-related activations for each ROI, relief, and omission-SCR) were specified as follows:   

      (1) For the overall lag:

      Omission response ~ Probability * Intensity * Run + US-unpleasantness + Overall-lag + (1|Subject).  

      (2) For the lag per probability level:

      Omission response ~ Probability * Intensity * Run + US-unpleasantness + Lag-perprobability : Probability + (1|Subject).  

      Where US-unpleasantness scores were mean-centered across participants; “*” represents main effects and interactions, and “:” represents an interaction (without main effect). Note that we only included an interaction for the lag-per-probability model to estimate separate lag-parameters for each probability level.  

      The results of these analyses are presented in the tables below. Overall, we found that adding these lag-regressors to the model did not alter our main results. That is: for the VTA/SN, relief and omission-SCR, the main effects of Probability and Intensity remained. Interestingly, the overall-lag-effect itself was significant for VTA/SN activations and omission SCR, indicating that VTA/SN activations were larger when more time had passed since the last stimulation (beta = 0.19), whereas SCR were smaller when more time had passed (beta = -0.03). This pattern is reminiscent of the Perruchet effect, namely that the explicit expectancy of a US increases over a run of non-reinforced trials (in line with the gambler’s fallacy effect) whereas the conditioned physiological response to the conditional stimulus declines (in line with an extinction effect, Perruchet, 1985; McAndrew, Jones, McLaren, & McLaren, 2012). Thus, the observed dissociation between the VTA/SN activations and omission SCR might similarly point to two distinctive processes where VTA/SN activations are more dependent on a consciously controlled process that is subjected to the gambler’s fallacy, whereas the strength of the omission SCR responses is more dependent on an automatic associative process that is subjected to extinction. Importantly, however, even though the temporal distance to the last stimulation had these opposing effects on VTA/SN activations and omission SCRs, the main effects of the probability manipulation remained significant for both outcome variables. This means that the core results of our study still hold.   

      Next to the overall-lag effect, the lag-per-probability regressor was only significant for the vmPFC. A follow-up of the beta estimates of the lag-per-probability regressors for each probability level revealed that vmPFC activations increased with increasing temporal distance from the stimulation, but only for the 50% trials (beta = 0.47, t = 2.75, p < .01), and not the 25% (beta = 0.25, t = 1.49, p = .14) or the 75% trials (beta = 0.28, t = 1.62, p = .10).

      Author response table 1.

      F-statistics and corresponding p-values from the overall lag model. (*) F-test and p-values were based on the model where outliers were rescored to 2SD from the mean. Note that when retaining the influential outliers for this model, the p-value of the probability effect was p = .06. For all other outcome variables, rescoring the outliers did not change the results. Significant effects are indicated in bold.

      Author response table 2.

      F-statistics and corresponding p-values from the lag per probability level model. (*) F-test and p-values were based on the model where outliers were rescored to 2SD from the mean. Note that when retaining the influential outliers for this model, the p-value of the Intensity x Run interaction was p = .05. For all other outcome variables, rescoring the outliers did not change the results. Significant effects are indicated in bold.

      As the authors mentioned in the rebuttal letter, "selecting participants only if their anticipatory SCR monotonically increased with each increase in instructed probability 0% < 25% < 50% < 75% < 100%, N = 11 participants", only ~1/3 of the subjects actually showed strong evidence for the validity of the instructions. This further raises the question of whether the instructed design, due to the interference of false instruction and the dynamic learning among trials, is solid enough to test the hypothesis .  

      We agree with the reviewer that a monotonic increase in anticipatory SCR with increasing probability instructions would provide the strongest evidence that the manipulation worked. However, it is well known that SCR is a noisy measure, and so the chances to see this monotonic increase are rather small, even if the underlying threat anticipation increases monotonically. Furthermore, between-subject variation is substantial in physiological measures, and it is not uncommon to observe, e.g., differential fear conditioning in one measure, but not in another (Lonsdorf & Merz, 2017). It is therefore not so surprising that ‘only’ 1/3 of our participants showed the perfect pattern of monotonically increasing SCR with increasing probability instructions. That being said, it is also important to note that not all participants were considered for these follow-up analyses because valid SCR data was not always available.

      Specifically, N = 4 participants were identified as anticipation non-responders (i.e. participant with smaller average SCR to the clock on 100% than on 0% trials; pre-registered criterium) and were excluded from the SCR-related analyses, and N = 1 participant had missing data due to technical difficulties. This means that only 26 (and not 31) participants were considered for the post hoc analyses. Taking this information into account, this means that 21 out of 26 participants (approximately 80%) showed stronger anticipatory SCR following 75% instructions compared to 25% instructions and that  11 out of 26 participants (approximately 40%) even showed the monotonical increase in their anticipatory SCR (see supplemental figure 4). Furthermore, although anticipatory SCR gradually decreased over the course of the experiment, there was no Run x Probability interaction, indicating that the instructions remained stable throughout the task (see supplemental figure 3).  

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      A more operational approach might be to break the trials into different sections along the timeline and examine how much the results might have been affected across time. I expect the manipulation checks would hold for the first one or two runs and the authors then would have good reasons to focus on the behavioral and imaging results for those runs. 

      This recommendation resembles the recommendation by reviewer 1. In our reply to reviewer 1, we showed the results of a re-analysis of the fMRI data using the trial-by-trial estimates of the omission contrasts, which revealed no Probability x Run interaction, suggesting that – overall - the probability effect remained (more or less) stable over the course of the experiment.  For a more in depth discussion of the results of this additional analysis, we refer to our answer to reviewer 1.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Comments on revised version: 

      The authors were extremely responsive to the comments and provided a comprehensive rebuttal letter with a lot of detail to address the comments. The authors clarified their methodology, and rationale for their task design, which required some more explanation (at least for me) to understand. Some of the design elements were not clear to me in the original paper. 

      The initial framing for their study is still in the domain of learning. The paper starts off with a description of extinction as the prime example of when threat is omitted. This could lead a reader to think the paper would speak to the role of prediction errors in extinction learning processes. But this is not their goal, as they emphasize repeatedly in their rebuttal letter. The revision also now details how using a conditioning/extinction framework doesn't suit their experimental needs. 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this potential cause of confusion. We have now rewritten the starting paragraph of the introduction to more closely focus on prediction errors, and only discuss fear extinction as a potential paradigm that has been used to study the role of threat omission PE for fear extinction learning (see lines 40-55). We hope that these adaptations are sufficient to prevent any false expectations. However, as we have mentioned in our previous response letter, not talking about fear extinction at all would also not make sense in our opinion, since most of the knowledge we have gained about threat omission prediction errors to date is based on studies that employed these paradigms.  

      Adaptation in the revised manuscript (lines 40-55):  

      “We experience pleasurable relief when an expected threat stays away1. This relief indicates that the outcome we experienced (“nothing”) was better than we expected it to be (“threat”). Such a mismatch between expectation and outcome is generally regarded as the trigger for new learning, and is typically formalized as the prediction error (PE) that determines how much there can be learned in any given situation2. Over the last two decades, the PE elicited by the absence of expected threat (threat omission PE) has received increasing scientific interest, because it is thought to play a central role in learning of safety. Impaired safety learning is one of the core features of clinical anxiety4. A better understanding of how the threat omission PE is processed in the brain may therefore be key to optimizing therapeutic efforts to boost safety learning. Yet, despite its theoretical and clinical importance, research on how the threat omission PE is computed in the brain is only emerging.  

      To date, the threat omission PE has mainly been studied using fear extinction paradigms that mimic safety learning by repeatedly confronting a human or animal with a threat predicting cue (conditional stimulus, CS; e.g. a tone) in the absence of a previously associated aversive event (unconditional stimulus, US; e.g., an electrical stimulation). These (primarily non-human) studies have revealed that there are striking similarities between the PE elicited by unexpected threat omission and the PE elicited by unexpected reward.”

      It is reasonable to develop a new task to answer their experimental questions. By no means is there a requirement to use a conditioning/extinction paradigm to address their questions. As they say, "it is not necessary to adopt a learning paradigm to study omission responses", which I agree with.  But the authors seem to want to have it both ways: they frame their paper around how important prediction errors are to extinction processes, but then go out of their way to say how they can't test their hypotheses with a learning paradigm.

      Part of their argument that they needed to develop their own task "outside of a learning context" goes as follows: 

      (1) "...conditioning paradigms generally only include one level of aversive outcome: the electrical stimulation is either delivered or omitted. As a result, the magnitude-related axiom cannot be tested." 

      (2) "....in conditioning tasks people generally learn fast, rendering relatively few trials on which the prediction is violated. As a result, there is generally little intra-individual variability in the PE responses" 

      (3) "...because of the relatively low signal to noise ratio in fMRI measures, fear extinction studies often pool across trials to compare omission-related activity between early and late extinction, which further reduces the necessary variability to properly evaluate the probability axiom" 

      These points seem to hinge on how tasks are "generally" constructed. However, there are many adaptations to learning tasks:

      (1) There is no rule that conditioning can't include different levels of aversive outcomes following different cues. In fact, their own design uses multiple cues that signal different intensities and probabilities. Saying that conditioning "generally only include one level of aversive outcome" is not an explanation for why "these paradigms are not tailored" for their research purposes. There are also several conditioning studies that have used different cues to signal different outcome probabilities. This is not uncommon, and in fact is what they use in their study, only with an instruction rather than through learning through experience, per se.

      (2) Conditioning/extinction doesn't have to occur fast. Just because people "generally learn fast" doesn't mean this has to be the case. Experiments can be designed to make learning more challenging or take longer (e.g., partial reinforcement). And there can be intra-individual differences in conditioning and extinction, especially if some cues have a lower probability of predicting the US than others. Again, because most conditioning tasks are usually constructed in a fairly simplistic manner doesn't negate the utility of learning paradigms to address PEaxioms.

      (3) Many studies have tracked trial-by-trial BOLD signal in learning studies (e.g., using parametric modulation). Again, just because other studies "often pool across trials" is not an explanation for these paradigms being ill-suited to study prediction errors. Indeed, most computational models used in fMRI are predicated on analyzing data at the trial level. 

      We thank the reviewer for these remarks. The “fear conditioning and extinction paradigms” that we were referring to in this paragraph were the ones that have been used to study threat omission PE responses in previous research (e.g., Raczka et al., 2011; Thiele et al. 2021; Lange et al. 2020; Esser et al., 2021; Papalini et al., 2021; Vervliet et al. 2017). These studies have mainly used differential/multiple-cue protocols where either one (or two) CS+  and one CS- are trained in an acquisition phase and extinguished in the next phase. Thus, in these paradigms: (1) only one level of aversive US is used; and (2) as safety learning develops over the course of extinction, there are relatively few omission trials during which “large” threat omission PEs can be observed (e.g. from the 24 CS+ trials that were used during extinction in Esser et al., the steepest decreases in expectancy – and thus the largest PE – were found in first 6 trials); and (3) there was never absolute certainty that the stimulation will no longer follow. Some of these studies have indeed estimated the threat omission PE during the extinction phase based on learning models, and have entered these estimates as parametric modulators to CS-offset regressors. This is very informative. However, the exact model that was used differed per study (e.g. Rescorla-Wagner in Raczka et al. and Thiele et al.; or a Rescorla- Wagner–Pearce- Hall hybrid model in Esser et al.). We wanted to analyze threat omission-responses without commitment to a particular learning model. Thus, in order to examine how threat omissionresponses vary as a function of probability-related expectations, a paradigm that has multiple probability levels is recommended (e.g. Rutledge et al., 2010; Ojala et al., 2022)

      The reviewer rightfully pointed out that conditioning paradigms (more generally) can be tailored to fit our purposes as well. Still, when doing so, the same adaptations as we outlined above need to be considered: i.e. include different levels of US intensity; different levels of probability; and conditions with full certainty about the US (non)occurrence. In our attempt to keep the experimental design as simple and straightforward as possible, we decided to rely on instructions for this purpose, rather than to train 3 (US levels) x 5 (reinforcement levels) = 15 different CSs. It is certainly possible to train multiple CSs of varying reinforcement rates (e.g. Grings et al. 1971, Ojala et al., 2022). However, given that US-expectation on each trial would primarily depend on the individual learning processes of the participants, using a conditioning task would make it more difficult to maintain experimental control over the level of USexpectation elicited by each CS. As a result, this would likely require more extensive training, and thus prolong the study procedure considerably. Furthermore, even though previous studies have trained different CSs for different reinforcement rates, most of these studies have only used one level of US. Thus, in order to not complexify our task to much, we decided to rely on instructions rather than to train CSs for multiple US levels (in addition to multiple reinforcement rates).

      We have tried to clarify our reasoning in the revised version of the manuscript (see introduction, lines 100-113):  

      “The previously discussed fear conditioning and extinction studies have been invaluable for clarifying the role of the threat omission PE within a learning context. However, these studies were not tailored to create the varying intensity and probability-related conditions that are required to systematically evaluate the threat omission PE in the light of the PE axioms. First, these only included one level of aversive outcome: the electrical stimulation was either delivered or omitted; but the intensity of the stimulation was never experimentally manipulated within the same task. As a result, the magnitude-related axiom could not be tested. Second, as safety learning progressively developed over the course of extinction learning, the most informative trials to evaluate the probability axiom (i.e. the trials with the largest PE) were restricted to the first few CS+ offsets of the extinction phase, and the exact number of these informative trials likely differed across participants as a result of individually varying learning rates. This limited the experimental control and necessary variability to systematically evaluate the probability axiom. Third, because CS-US contingencies changed over the course of the task (e.g. from acquisition to extinction), there was never complete certainty about whether the US would (not) follow. This precluded a direct comparison of fully predicted outcomes. Finally, within a learning context, it remains unclear whether brain responses to the threat omission are in fact responses to the violation of expectancy itself, or whether they are the result of subsequent expectancy updating.”

      Again, the authors are free to develop their own task design that they think is best suited to address their experimental questions. For instance, if they truly believe that omission-related responses should be studied independent of updating. The question I'm still left puzzling is why the paper is so strongly framed around extinction (the word appears several times in the main body of the paper), which is a learning process, and yet the authors go out of their way to say that they can only test their hypotheses outside of a learning paradigm. 

      As we have mentioned before, the reason why we refer to extinction studies is because most evidence on threat omission PE to date comes from fear extinction paradigms.  

      The authors did address other areas of concern, to varying extents. Some of these issues were somewhat glossed over in the rebuttal letter by noting them as limitations. For example, the issue with comparing 100% stimulation to 0% stimulation, when the shock contaminates the fMRI signal. This was noted as a limitation that should be addressed in future studies, bypassing the critical point. 

      It is unclear to us what the reviewer means with “bypassing the critical point”. We argued in the manuscript that the contrast we initially specified and preregistered to study axiom 3 (fully predicted outcomes elicit equivalent activation) could not be used for this purpose, as it was confounded by the delivery of the stimulation. Because 100% trials aways included the stimulation and 0% trials never included stimulation, there was no way to disentangle activations related to full predictability from activations related to the stimulation as such.   

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      I'm not sure the new paragraph explaining why they can't use a learning task to test their hypotheses is very convincing, as I noted in my review. Again, it is not a problem to develop a new task to address their questions. They can justify why they want to use their task without describing (incorrectly in my opinion) that other tasks "generally" are constructed in a way that doesn't suit their needs. 

      For an overview of the changes we made in response to this recommendation, we refer to our reply to the public review.   

      We look forward to your reply and are happy to provide answers to any further questions or comments you may have.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      We would like to first thank the Editor as well as the three reviewers for their enthusiasm and conducting another careful evaluation of our manuscript. We appreciate their thoughtful and constructive comments and suggestions. Some concerns regarding experimental design, data analysis, and over-interpretation of our findings still remains unresolved after the initial revision. Here we endeavored to address these remaining concerns through further refinement of our writing, and inclusion of these concerns in the discussion session. We hope our response can better explain the rationale of our experimental design and data interpretation. In addition, we also acknowledge the limitations of our present study, so that it will benefit future investigations into this topic. Our detail responses are provided below.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study examines whether the human brain uses a hexagonal grid-like representation to navigate in a non-spatial space constructed by competence and trustworthiness. To test this, the authors asked human participants to learn the levels of competence and trustworthiness for six faces by associating them with specific lengths of bar graphs that indicate their levels in each trait. After learning, participants were asked to extrapolate the location from the partially observed morphing bar graphs. Using fMRI, the authors identified brain areas where activity is modulated by the angles of morphing trajectories in six-fold symmetry. The strength of this paper lies in the question it attempts to address. Specifically, the question of whether and how the human brain uses grid-like representations not only for spatial navigation but also for navigating abstract concepts, such as social space, and guiding everyday decision-making. This question is of emerging importance.

      I acknowledge the authors' efforts to address the comments received. However, my concerns persist:

      Thanks very much again for the re-evaluation and comments. Please find our revision plans to each comment below.

      (1) The authors contend that shorter reaction times correlated with increased distances between individuals in social space imply that participants construct and utilize two-dimensional representations. This method is adapted from a previous study by Park et al. Yet, there is a fundamental distinction between the two studies. In the prior work, participants learned relationships between adjacent individuals, receiving feedback on their decisions, akin to learning spatial locations during navigation. This setup leads to two different predictions: If participants rely on memory to infer relationships, recalling more pairs would be necessary for distant individuals than for closer ones. Conversely, if participants can directly gauge distances using a cognitive map, they would estimate distances between far individuals as quickly as for closer ones. Consequently, as the authors suggest, reaction times ought to decrease with increasing decision value, which, in this context, corresponds to distances. However, the current study allowed participants to compare all possible pairs without restricting learning experiences, rendering the application of the same methodology for testing two-dimensional representations inappropriate. In this study, the results could be interpreted as participants not forming and utilizing two-dimensional representations.

      We apologize for not being clear enough about our task design, we have made relevant changes in the methodology section in the manuscript to make it clearer. The reviewer’s concern is that participants learned about all the pairs in the comparison task which makes the distance effect invalid. We would like to clarify that during all the memory test tasks (the comparison task, the collect task and the recall task outside and inside scanner), participants never received feedback on whether their responses were correct or not. Therefore, the comparison task in our study is similar to the previous study by Park et al. (2021). Participants do not have access to correct responses for all possible pairs of comparison prior to or during this task, they would need to make inference based on memory retrieval.

      (2) The confounding of visual features with the value of social decision-making complicates the interpretation of this study's results. It remains unclear whether the observed grid-like effects are due to visual features or are genuinely indicative of value-based decision-making, as argued by the authors. Contrary to the authors' argument, this issue was not present in the previous study (Constantinescu et al.). In that study, participants associated specific stimuli with the identities of hidden items, but these stimuli were not linked to decision-making values (i.e., no image was considered superior to another). The current study's paradigm is more akin to that of Bao et al., which the authors mention in the context of RSA analysis. Indeed, Bao et al. controlled the length of the bars specifically to address the problem highlighted here. Regrettably, in the current paradigm, this conflation remains inseparable.

      We’d like to thank the reviewer for facilitating the discussion on the question of ‘social space’ vs. ‘sensory space’. The task in scanner did not require value-based decision making. It is akin to both the Bao et al. (2019) study and Constantinescu et al. (2016) study in a sense that all three tasks are trying to ask participants to imagine moving along a trajectory in an abstract, non-physical space and the trajectory is grounded in sensory cue. Participants were trained to associate the sensory cue with abstract (social/nonsocial) concepts. We think that the paradigm is a relatively faithful replication of the study by Constantinescu et al. Nonetheless, we agreed that a design similar to Bao et al. (2019) which controls for sensory confounds would be more ideal to address this concern, or adopting a value-based decision-making task in the scanner similar to that by Park et al. (2021), and we have included this limitation in the discussion section.

      (3) While the authors have responded to comments in the public review, my concerns noted in the Recommendation section remain unaddressed. As indicated in my recommendations, there are aspects of the authors' methodology and results that I find difficult to comprehend. Resolving these issues is imperative to facilitate an appropriate review in subsequent stages.

      Considering that the issues raised in the previous comments remain unresolved, I have retained my earlier comments below for review.

      We apologize for not addressing the recommendations properly, please find detailed our response and plans for revision.

      I have some comments. I hope that these can help.

      (1) While the explanation of Fig.4A-C is lacking in both the main text and figure legend, I am not sure if I understand this finding correctly. Did the authors find the effects of hexagonal modulation in the medial temporal gyrus and lingual gyrus correlate with the individual differences in the extent to which their reaction times were associated with the distances between faces when choosing a better collaborator? If so, I am not sure what argument the authors try to draw from these findings. Do the authors argue that these brain areas show hexagonal modulation, which was not supported in the previous analysis (Fig.3)? What is the level of correlation between these behavioral measures and the grid consistency effects in the vmPFC and EC, where the authors found actual grid-like activity? How do the authors interpret this finding? More importantly, how does this finding associate with other findings and the argument of the study?

      We apologize for not being clear enough in the manuscript and we will improve the clarity in our revision. This exploratory analysis reported in Figure 4 aims to use whole-brain analysis to examine: 1) if there is any correlation between the strength of grid-like representation of social value map and behavioral indicators of map-like representation; and 2) if there are any correlation between the strength of grid-like representation of this social value map and participants’ social trait.

      To be more specific, for the behavioral indicator, we used the distance effect in the reaction time of the comparison task outside the scanner. We interpreted stronger distance effect as a behavioral index of having better internal map-like representation. We interpreted stronger grid consistency effect as a neural index of better representation of the 2D social space. Therefore, we’d like to see if there exists correlation between behavioral and neural indices of map-like representation.

      To achieve this goal, behavioral indicators are entered as covariates in second-level analysis of the GLM testing grid consistency effect (GLM2). Figure3 showed results from GLM2 without the covariates. Figure4 showed results of clusters whose neural indices of map-like representation covaried with that from behavior and survived multiple-comparison correction. Indeed, in these regions, the grid consistency effect was not significant at group level (so not shown in Figure 3). We tried to interpret this finding in our discussion (line 374-289 for temporal lobe correlation, line 395-404 for precuneus correlation).

      Finally, we would like to point out that including the covariates in GLM2 did not change results in Figure3, the clusters in Figure3 still survives correction. Meanwhile, these clusters in Figure 3 did not show correlation with behavioral indicators of map-like representation.

      Author response image 1.

      (2) There are no behavioral results provided. How accurately did participants perform each of the tasks? How are the effects of grid consistency associated with the level of accuracy in the map test?

      Why did participants perform the recall task again outside the scanner?

      We will endeavor to improve signposting the corresponding figures in the main text. For the behavioral results, we reported the stats in section “Participants construct social value map after associative learning of avatars and corresponding characteristics” in the main text, and the plots are shown in Figure 1. Particularly, figure 1F showed accuracy of tasks in training, as well as the recall task in the scanner. For the correlation, we did not find significant correlation between behavioural accuracy and grid consistency effect. We will make it clearer in the result section.

      (3) The methods did not explain how the grid orientation was estimated and what the regressors were in GLM2. I don't think equations 2 and 3 are quite right.

      For the grid orientation estimation method, we provided detailed description in the Supplementary methods 2.2.2. We will add links to this section in the main text.

      Equation 2 and 3 describes how the parametric regressors entered into GLM2 were formed and provided prerequisites on calculation of grid orientations. Equation 2 was the results of directly applying the angle addition and subtraction theorems so they should be correct. We will try to make the rationale clearer in the supplementary text.

      (4) With the increase in navigation distances, more grid cells would activate. Therefore, in theory, the activity in the entorhinal cortex should increase with the Euclidean distances, which has not been found here. I wonder if there was enough variability in the Euclidean distances that can be captured by neural correlates. This would require including the distributions of Euclidean distances according to their trajectory angles. Regarding how Fig.1E is generated, I don't understand what this heat map indicates. Additionally, it needs to be confirmed if the grid effects remain while controlling for the Euclidean distances of navigation trajectories.

      We did not specifically control for the trajectory length, we only controlled for the distribution of trajectory to be uniform. We have included a figure of the distribution of Euclidean distances in Figure S9 and the distribution of trajectory direction in Figure S8.

      Author response image 2.

      As for Figure 1E, we aim to reproduce the findings from Figure 1F in Constantinescu et al. (2016) where they showed that participants progressively refined the locations of the outcomes through training. We divided the space into 15×15 subregions and computed the amount of time spent in each subregion and plotted Figure 1E. Brighter color in Figure 1E indicate greater amount of time spent in the corresponding subregion. Note that all these timing indices were computed as a percentage of the total time spent in the explore task in a given session. If participants were well-acquainted with the space and avatars, they would spend more time at the avatar (brighter color in avatar locations) in the review session compared to the learning session.

      As for the effect of distances on grid-like representation, we did not include the distance as a parametric modulator in grid consistency effect GLM (GLM2) due to insufficient trials in each bin (6-8 trials). But there is side evidence that could potentially rule out this confound. In the distance representation analysis, we did not find distance representation in any of the clusters that have significant grid-like representation (regions in Figure 2).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this work, Liang et al. investigate whether an abstract social space is neurally represented by a grid-like code. They trained participants to 'navigate' around a two-dimensional space of social agents characterized by the traits warmth and competence, then measured neural activity as participants imagined navigating through this space. The primary neural analysis consisted of three procedures: 1) identifying brain regions exhibiting the hexagonal modulation characteristic of a grid-like code, 2) estimating the orientation of each region's grid, and 3) testing whether the strength of the univariate neural signal increases when a participant is navigating in a direction aligned with the grid, compared to a direction that is misaligned with the grid. From these analyses, the authors find the clearest evidence of a grid-like code in the prefrontal cortex and weaker evidence in the entorhinal cortex.

      Strengths:

      The work demonstrates the existence of a grid-like neural code for a socially-relevant task, providing evidence that such coding schemes may be relevant for a variety of two-dimensional task spaces.

      Weaknesses:

      In the revised manuscript, the authors soften their claims about finding a grid code in the entorhinal cortex and provide additional caveats about limitations in their findings. It seems that the authors and reviewers are in agreement about the following weaknesses, which were part of my original review: Claims about a grid code in the entorhinal cortex are not well-supported by the analyses presented. The whole-brain analysis does not suggest that the entorhinal cortex exhibits hexagonal modulation; the strength of the entorhinal BOLD signal does not track the putative alignment of the grid code there; multivariate analyses do not reveal any evidence of a grid-like representational geometry.

      In the authors' response to reviews, they provide additional clarification about their exploratory analyses examining whether behavior (i.e., reaction times) and individual difference measures (i.e., social anxiety and avoidance) can be predicted by the hexagonal modulation strength in some region X, conditional on region X having a similar estimated grid alignment with some other region Y. My guess is that readers would find it useful if some of this language were included in the main text, especially with regard to an explanation regarding the rationale for these exploratory studies.

      Thank you very much again for your careful re-evaluation and suggestions. We have tried to improve our writing and incorporate the suggestions in the new revision.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Liang and colleagues set out to test whether the human brain uses distance and grid-like codes in social knowledge using a design where participants had to navigate in a two-dimensional social space based on competence and warmth during an fMRI scan. They showed that participants were able to navigate the social space and found distance-based codes as well as grid-like codes in various brain regions, and the grid-like code correlated with behavior (reaction times).

      On the whole, the experiment is designed appropriately for testing for distant-based and grid-like codes, and is relatively well powered for this type of study, with a large amount of behavioral training per participant. They revealed that a number of brain regions correlated positively or negatively with distance in the social space, and found grid-like codes in the frontal polar cortex and posterior medial entorhinal cortex, the latter in line with prior findings on grid-like activity in entorhinal cortex. The current paper seems quite similar conceptually and in design to previous work, most notably Park et al., 2021, Nature Neuroscience.

      (1) The authors claim that this study provides evidence that humans use a spatial / grid code for abstract knowledge like social knowledge.

      This data does specifically not add anything new to this argument. As with almost all studies that test for a grid code in a similar "conceptual" space (not only the current study), the problem is that, when the space is not a uniform, square/circular space, and 2-dimensional then there is no reason the code will be perfectly grid like, i.e., show six-fold symmetry. In real world scenarios of social space (as well as navigation, semantic concepts), it must be higher dimensional - or at least more than two dimensional. It is unclear if this generalizes to larger spaces where not all part of the space is relevant. Modelling work from Tim Behrens' lab (e.g., Whittington et al., 2020) and Bradley Love's lab (e.g., Mok & Love, 2019) have shown/argued this to be the case. In experimental work, like in mazes from the Mosers' labs (e.g., Derdikman et al., 2009), or trapezoid environments from the O'Keefe lab (Krupic et al., 2015), there are distortions in mEC cells, and would not pass as grid cells in terms of the six-fold symmetry criterion.

      The authors briefly discuss the limitations of this at the very end but do not really say how this speaks to the goal of their study and the claim that social space or knowledge is organized as a grid code and if it is in fact used in the brain in their study and beyond. This issue deserves to be discussed in more depth, possibly referring to prior work that addressed this, and raise the issue for future work to address the problem - or if the authors think it is a problem at all.

      Thanks very much again for your careful re-evaluation and comments. We have tried to incorporate some of the suggested papers into our discussion. In summary, we agree that there is more to six-fold symmetric code that can be utilized to represent “conceptual space”. We think that the next step for a stronger claim would be to find the representation of more spontaneous non-spatial maps.

      References

      Bao, X., Gjorgieva, E., Shanahan, L. K., Howard, J. D., Kahnt, T., & Gottfried, J. A. (2019). Grid-like Neural Representations Support Olfactory Navigation of a Two-Dimensional Odor Space. Neuron, 102(5), 1066-1075 e1065. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2019.03.034

      Constantinescu, A. O., O'Reilly, J. X., & Behrens, T. E. J. (2016). Organizing conceptual knowledge in humans with a gridlike code. Science, 352(6292), 1464-1468. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aaf0941

      Park, S. A., Miller, D. S., & Boorman, E. D. (2021). Inferences on a multidimensional social hierarchy use a grid-like code. Nat Neurosci, 24(9), 1292-1301. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41593-02100916-3

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper presents a compelling and comprehensive study of decision-making under uncertainty. It addresses a fundamental distinction between belief-based (cognitive neuroscience) formulations of choice behavior with reward-based (behavioral psychology) accounts. Specifically, it asks whether active inference provides a better account of planning and decision making, relative to reinforcement learning. To do this, the authors use a simple but elegant paradigm that includes choices about whether to seek both information and rewards. They then assess the evidence for active inference and reinforcement learning models of choice behavior, respectively. After demonstrating that active inference provides a better explanation of behavioral responses, the neuronal correlates of epistemic and instrumental value (under an optimized active inference model) are characterized using EEG. Significant neuronal correlates of both kinds of value were found in sensor and source space. The source space correlates are then discussed sensibly, in relation to the existing literature on the functional anatomy of perceptual and instrumental decision-making under uncertainty.

      We are deeply grateful for your careful review of our work and your suggestions. Your insights have helped us identify areas where we can strengthen the arguments and clarify the methodology. We hope to apply the idea of active inference to our future work, emphasizing the integrity of perception and action.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Many thanks for attending to my previous suggestions. I think your presentation is now much clearer and nicely aligned with the active inference literature.

      There is one outstanding issue. I think you have overinterpreted the two components of epistemic value in Equation 8. The two components that you have called the value of reducing risk and the value of reducing ambiguity are not consistent with the normal interpretation. These two components are KL divergences that measure the expected information gain about parameters and states respectively.

      If you read the Schwartenbeck et al paper carefully, you will see that the first (expected information gain about parameters) is usually called novelty, while the second (expected information gain about states) is usually called salience.

      This means you can replace "the value of reducing ambiguity" with "novelty" and "the value of reducing risk" with "salience".

      For your interest, "risk" and "ambiguity" are alternative ways of decomposing expected free energy. In other words, you can decompose expected free energy into (negative) expected information gain and expected value (as you have done). Alternatively, you can rearrange the terms and express expected free energy as risk and ambiguity. Look at the top panel of Figure 4 in:

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022249620300857

      I hope that this helps.

      We deeply thank you for your recommendations about the interpretation of the epistemic value in Equation 8. We have now corrected them to Novelty and Salience:

      In addition, in order to avoid terminology conflicts with active inference and to describe these two different uncertainties, we replaced Ambiguity in the article with Novelty, referring to the uncertainty that can be reduced by sampling, and replaced Risk with Variability, referring to the uncertainty inherent in the environment (variance).

      Reviewer # 2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Zhang and colleagues use a combination of behavioral, neural, and computational analyses to test an active inference model of exploration in a novel reinforcement learning task..

      Strengths:

      The paper addresses an important question (validation of active inference models of exploration). The combination of behavior, neuroimaging, and modeling is potentially powerful for answering this question.

      I appreciate the addition of details about model fitting, comparison, and recovery, as well as the change in some of the methods.

      We are deeply grateful for your careful review of our work and your suggestions. And we are also very sorry that in our last responses, there were a few suggestions from you that we did not respond them appropriately in our manuscript. We hope to be able to respond to these suggestions well in this revision. Thank you for your contribution to ensuring the scientificity and reproducibility of the work.

      The authors do not cite what is probably the most relevant contextual bandit study, by Collins & Frank (2018, PNAS), which uses EEG.

      The authors cite Collins & Molinaro as a form of contextual bandit, but that's not the case (what they call "context" is just the choice set). They should look at the earlier work from Collins, starting with Collins & Frank (2012, EJN).

      We deeply thank you for your comments. Now we add the relevant citations in the manuscript (line 46):

      “These studies utilized different forms of multi-armed bandit tasks, e.g the restless multi-armed bandit tasks (Daw et al., 2006; Guha et al., 2010), risky/safe bandit tasks (Tomov et al., 2020; Fan et al., 2022; Payzan et al., 2013), contextual multi-armed bandit tasks (Collins & Frank, 2018; Schulz et al., 2015; Collins & Frank, 2012)”

      Daw, N. D., O'doherty, J. P., Dayan, P., Seymour, B., & Dolan, R. J. (2006). Cortical substrates for exploratory decisions in humans. Nature, 441(7095), 876-879.

      Guha, S., Munagala, K., & Shi, P. (2010). Approximation algorithms for restless bandit problems. Journal of the ACM (JACM), 58(1), 1-50.

      Tomov, M. S., Truong, V. Q., Hundia, R. A., & Gershman, S. J. (2020). Dissociable neural correlates of uncertainty underlie different exploration strategies. Nature communications, 11(1), 2371.

      Fan, H., Gershman, S. J., & Phelps, E. A. (2023). Trait somatic anxiety is associated with reduced directed exploration and underestimation of uncertainty. Nature Human Behaviour, 7(1), 102-113.

      Payzan-LeNestour, E., Dunne, S., Bossaerts, P., & O’Doherty, J. P. (2013). The neural representation of unexpected uncertainty during value-based decision making. Neuron, 79(1), 191-201.

      Collins, A. G., & Frank, M. J. (2018). Within-and across-trial dynamics of human EEG reveal cooperative interplay between reinforcement learning and working memory. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 115(10), 2502-2507.

      Schulz, E., Konstantinidis, E., & Speekenbrink, M. (2015, April). Exploration-exploitation in a contextual multi-armed bandit task. In International conference on cognitive modeling (pp. 118-123).

      Collins, A. G., & Frank, M. J. (2012). How much of reinforcement learning is working memory, not reinforcement learning? A behavioral, computational, and neurogenetic analysis. European Journal of Neuroscience, 35(7), 1024-1035.

      Placing statistical information in a GitHub repository is not appropriate. This needs to be in the main text of the paper. I don't understand why the authors refer to space limitations; there are none for eLife, as far as I'm aware.

      We deeply thank you for your comments. We calculated the average t-value of the brain regions with significant results over the significant time, and added the t-value results to the main text and supplementary materials.

      In answer to my question about multiple comparisons, the authors have added the following: "Note that we did not attempt to correct for multiple comparisons; largely, because the correlations observed were sustained over considerable time periods, which would be almost impossible under the null hypothesis of no correlations." I'm sorry, but this does not make sense. Either the authors are doing multiple comparisons, in which case multiple comparison correction is relevant, or they are doing a single test on the extended timeseries, in which case they need to report that. There exist tools for this kind of analysis (e.g., Gershman et al., 2014, NeuroImage). I'm not suggesting that the authors should necessarily do this, only that their statistical approach should be coherent. As a reference point, the authors might look at the aforementioned Collins & Frank (2018) study.

      We deeply thank you for your comments. We have now replaced all our results with the results after false discovery rate correction and added relevant descriptions (line 357,358):

      “The significant results after false discovery rate (FDR) (Benjamini et al., 1995, Gershman et al., 2014) correction were shown in shaded regions. Additional regression results can be found in Supplementary Materials.”

      Benjamini, Y., & Hochberg, Y. (1995). Controlling the false discovery rate: a practical and powerful approach to multiple testing. Journal of the Royal statistical society: series B (Methodological), 57(1), 289-300.

      Gershman, S. J., Blei, D. M., Norman, K. A., & Sederberg, P. B. (2014). Decomposing spatiotemporal brain patterns into topographic latent sources. NeuroImage, 98, 91-102.

      After FDR correction, our results have changed slightly. We have updated our Results and Discussion section.

      It should be acknowledged that the changes in these results may represent a certain degree of error in our data (perhaps because the EEG data is too noisy or because of the average template we used, ‘fsaverage’). Therefore, we added relevant discussion in the Discussion section (line527-529):

      “It should be acknowledged that our EEG-based regression results are somewhat unstable, and the brain regions with significant regression are inconsistent before and after FDR correction. In future work, we should collect more precise neural data to reduce this instability.”

      I asked the authors to show more descriptive comparison between the model and the data. Their response was that this is not possible, which I find odd given that they are able to use the model to define a probability distribution on choices. All I'm asking about here is to show predictive checks which build confidence in the model fit. The additional simulations do not address this. The authors refer to figures 3 and 4, but these do not show any direct comparison between human data and the model beyond model comparison metrics.

      We deeply thank you for your comments. We now compare the participants’ behavioral data and the model’s predictions trial by trial (Figure 5). We can clearly see the participants’ behavioral strategies in different states and trials and the model’s prediction accuracy. We have added the discussion related to Figure 5 (line 309-318):

      “Figure 5 shows the comparison between the active inference model and the behavioral data, where we can see that the model can fit the participants behavioral strategies well. In the “Stay-Cue" choice, participants always tend to choose to ask the ranger and rarely choose not to ask. When the context was unknown, participants chose the “Safe" option or the “Risky" option very randomly, and they did not show any aversion to variability. When given “Context 1", where the “Risky" option gave participants a high average reward, participants almost exclusively chose the “Risky" option, which provided more information in the early trials and was found to provide more rewards in the later rounds. When given “Context 2", where the “Risky" option gave participants a low average reward, participants initially chose the “Risky" option and then tended to choose the “Safe" option. We can see that participants still occasionally chose the “Risky" option in the later trials of the experiment, which the model does not capture. This may be due to the influence of forgetting. Participants chose the “Risky" option again to establish an estimate of the reward distribution.”

      Reviewer # 2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In the supplement, there are missing references ("[?]").

      Thank you very much for pointing out this. We have now fixed this error.

      Reviewer # 3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper aims to investigate how the human brain represents different forms of value and uncertainty that participate in active inference within a free-energy framework, in a two-stage decision task involving contextual information sampling, and choices between safe and risky rewards, which promotes shifting between exploration and exploitation. They examine neural correlates by recording EEG and comparing activity in the first vs second half of trials and between trials in which subjects did and did not sample contextual information, and perform a regression with free-energy-related regressors against data "mapped to source space."

      Strengths:

      This two-stage paradigm is cleverly designed to incorporate several important processes of learning, exploration/exploitation and information sampling that pertain to active inference. Although scalp/brain regions showing sensitivity to the active-inference related quantities do not necessary suggest what role they play, they are illuminating and useful as candidate regions for further investigation. The aims are ambitious, and the methodologies impressive. The paper lays out an extensive introduction to the free energy principle and active inference to make the findings accessible to a broad readership.

      Weaknesses:

      In its revised form the paper is complete in providing the important details. Though not a serious weakness, it is important to note that the high lower-cutoff of 1 Hz in the bandpass filter, included to reduce the impact of EEG noise, would remove from the EEG any sustained, iteratively updated representation that evolves with learning across trials, or choice-related processes that unfold slowly over the course of the 2-second task windows.

      We are deeply grateful for your careful review of our work and your suggestions. We are very sorry that we did not modify our filter frequency (it would be a lot of work to modify it). Thank you very much for pointing this out. We noticed the shortcoming of the high lower-cutoff of 1 Hz in the bandpass filter. We will carefully consider the filter frequency when preprocessing data in future work. Thank you very much!

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study presents a new and valuable theoretical account of spatial representational drift in the hippocampus. The evidence supporting the claims is convincing, with a clear and accessible explanation of the phenomenon. Overall, this study will likely attract researchers exploring learning and representation in both biological and artificial neural networks.

      We would like to ask the reviewers to consider elevating the assessment due to the following arguments. As noted in the original review, the study bridges two different fields (machine learning and neuroscience), and does not only touch a single subfield (representational drift in neuroscience). In the revision, we also analysed data from four different labs, strengthening the evidence and the generality of the conclusions.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors start from the premise that neural circuits exhibit "representational drift" -- i.e., slow and spontaneous changes in neural tuning despite constant network performance. While the extent to which biological systems exhibit drift is an active area of study and debate (as the authors acknowledge), there is enough interest in this topic to justify the development of theoretical models of drift.

      The contribution of this paper is to claim that drift can reflect a mixture of "directed random motion" as well as "steady state null drift." Thus far, most work within the computational neuroscience literature has focused on the latter. That is, drift is often viewed to be a harmless byproduct of continual learning under noise. In this view, drift does not affect the performance of the circuit nor does it change the nature of the network's solution or representation of the environment. The authors aim to challenge the latter viewpoint by showing that the statistics of neural representations can change (e.g. increase in sparsity) during early stages of drift. Further, they interpret this directed form of drift as "implicit regularization" on the network.

      The evidence presented in favor of these claims is concise. Nevertheless, on balance, I find their evidence persuasive on a theoretical level -- i.e., I am convinced that implicit regularization of noisy learning rules is a feature of most artificial network models. This paper does not seem to make strong claims about real biological systems. The authors do cite circumstantial experimental evidence in line with the expectations of their model (Khatib et al. 2022), but those experimental data are not carefully and quantitatively related to the authors' model.

      We thank the reviewer for pushing us to present stronger experimental evidence. We now analysed data from four different labs. Two of those are novel analyses of existing data (Karlsson et al, Jercog et al). All datasets show the same trend - increasing sparsity and increasing information per cell. We think that the results, presented in the new figure 3, allow us to make a stronger claim on real biological systems.

      To establish the possibility of implicit regularization in artificial networks, the authors cite convincing work from the machine-learning community (Blanc et al. 2020, Li et al., 2021). Here the authors make an important contribution by translating these findings into more biologically plausible models and showing that their core assumptions remain plausible. The authors also develop helpful intuition in Figure 4 by showing a minimal model that captures the essence of their result.

      We are glad that these translation efforts are appreciated.

      In Figure 2, the authors show a convincing example of the gradual sparsification of tuning curves during the early stages of drift in a model of 1D navigation. However, the evidence presented in Figure 3 could be improved. In particular, 3A shows a histogram displaying the fraction of active units over 1117 simulations. Although there is a spike near zero, a sizeable portion of simulations have greater than 60% active units at the end of the training, and critically the authors do not characterize the time course of the active fraction for every network, so it is difficult to evaluate their claim that "all [networks] demonstrated... [a] phase of directed random motion with the low-loss space." It would be useful to revise the manuscript to unpack these results more carefully. For example, a histogram of log(tau) computed in panel B on a subset of simulations may be more informative than the current histogram in panel A.

      The previous figure 3A was indeed confusing. In particular, it lumped together many simulations without proper curation. We redid this figure (now Figure 4), and added supplementary figures (Figures S1, S2) to better explain our results. It is now clear that the simulations with a large number of active units were either due to non-convergence, slow timescale of sparsification or simulations featuring label noise in which the fraction of active units is less affected. Regarding the log(tau) calculation, while it could indeed be an informative plot, it could not be calculated in a simple manner for all simulations. This is because learning curves are not always exponential, but sometimes feature initial plateaus (see also Saxe et al 2013, Schuessler et al 2020). We added a more detailed explanation of this limitation in the methods section, and we believe the current figure exemplifies the effect in a satisfactory manner.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript "Representational drift as a result of implicit regularization" the authors study the phenomenon of representational drift (RD) in the context of an artificial network that is trained in a predictive coding framework. When trained on a task for spatial navigation on a linear track, they found that a stochastic gradient descent algorithm led to a fast initial convergence to spatially tuned units, but then to a second very slow, yet directed drift which sparsified the representation while increasing the spatial information. They finally show that this separation of timescales is a robust phenomenon and occurs for a number of distinct learning rules.

      Strengths:

      This is a very clearly written and insightful paper, and I think people in the community will benefit from understanding how RD can emerge in such artificial networks. The mechanism underlying RD in these models is clearly laid out and the explanation given is convincing.

      We thank the reviewer for the support.

      Weaknesses:

      It is unclear how this mechanism may account for the learning of multiple environments.

      There are two facets to the topic of multiple environments. First, are the results of the current paper relevant when there are multiple environments? Second, what is the interaction between brain mechanisms of dealing with multiple environments and the results of the current paper?

      We believe the answer to the first question is positive. The near-orthogonality of representations between environments implies that changes in one can happen without changes in the other. This is evident, for instance, in Khatib et al and Geva et al - in both cases, drift seems to happen independently in two environments, even though they are visited intermittently and are visually similar.

      The second question is a fascinating one, and we are planning to pursue it in future work. While the exact way in which the brain achieves this near-independence is an open question, remapping is one possible window into this process.

      We extended the discussion to make these points clear.

      The process of RD through this mechanism also appears highly non-stationary, in contrast to what is seen in familiar environments in the hippocampus, for example.

      The non-stationarity noted by the reviewer is indeed a major feature of our observations, and is indeed linked to familiarity. We divide learning into three phases (now more clearly stated in Table 1 and Figure 4C). The first, rapid phase, consists of improvement of performance - corresponding to initial familiarity with the environment. The third phase, often reported in the literature of representational drift, is indeed stationary and obtained after prolonged familiarity. Our work focuses on the second phase, which is not as immediate as the first one, and can take several days. We note in the discussion that experiments which include a long familiarization process can miss this phase (see also Table 3). Furthermore, we speculate that real life is less stationary than a lab environment, and this second phase might actually be more relevant there.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Single-unit neural activity tuned to environmental or behavioral variables gradually changes over time. This phenomenon, called representational drift, occurs even when all external variables remain constant, and challenges the idea that stable neural activity supports the performance of well-learned behaviors. While a number of studies have described representational drift across multiple brain regions, our understanding of the underlying mechanism driving drift is limited. Ratzon et al. propose that implicit regularization - which occurs when machine learning networks continue to reconfigure after reaching an optimal solution - could provide insights into why and how drift occurs in neurons. To test this theory, Ratzon et al. trained a Feedforward Network trained to perform the oft-utilized linear track behavioral paradigm and compare the changes in hidden layer units to those observed in hippocampal place cells recorded in awake, behaving animals.

      Ratzon et al. clearly demonstrate that hidden layer units in their model undergo consistent changes even after the task is well-learned, mirroring representational drift observed in real hippocampal neurons. They show that the drift occurs across three separate measures: the active proportion of units (referred to as sparsification), spatial information of units, and correlation of spatial activity. They continue to address the conditions and parameters under which drift occurs in their model to assess the generalizability of their findings.

      However, the generalizability results are presented primarily in written form: additional figures are warranted to aid in reproducibility.

      We added figures, and a Github with all the code to allow full reproducibility.

      Last, they investigate the mechanism through which sparsification occurs, showing that the flatness of the manifold near the solution can influence how the network reconfigures. The authors suggest that their findings indicate a three-stage learning process: 1) fast initial learning followed by 2) directed motion along a manifold which transitions to 3) undirected motion along a manifold.

      Overall, the authors' results support the main conclusion that implicit regularization in machine learning networks mirrors representational drift observed in hippocampal place cells.

      We thank the reviewer for this summary.

      However, additional figures/analyses are needed to clearly demonstrate how different parameters used in their model qualitatively and quantitatively influence drift.

      We now provide additional figures regarding parameters (Figures S1, S2).

      Finally, the authors need to clearly identify how their data supports the three-stage learning model they suggest.

      Their findings promise to open new fields of inquiry into the connection between machine learning and representational drift and generate testable predictions for neural data.

      Strengths:

      (1) Ratzon et al. make an insightful connection between well-known phenomena in two separate fields: implicit regularization in machine learning and representational drift in the brain. They demonstrate that changes in a recurrent neural network mirror those observed in the brain, which opens a number of interesting questions for future investigation.

      (2) The authors do an admirable job of writing to a large audience and make efforts to provide examples to make machine learning ideas accessible to a neuroscience audience and vice versa. This is no small feat and aids in broadening the impact of their work.

      (3) This paper promises to generate testable hypotheses to examine in real neural data, e.g., that drift rate should plateau over long timescales (now testable with the ability to track single-unit neural activity across long time scales with calcium imaging and flexible silicon probes). Additionally, it provides another set of tools for the neuroscience community at large to use when analyzing the increasingly high-dimensional data sets collected today.

      We thank the reviewer for these comments. Regarding the hypotheses, these are partially confirmed in the new analyses we provide of data from multiple labs (new Figure 3 and Table 3) - indicating that prolonged exposure to the environment leads to more stationarity.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Neural representational drift and directed/undirected random walks along a manifold in ML are well described. However, outside of the first section of the main text, the analysis focuses primarily on the connection between manifold exploration and sparsification without addressing the other two drift metrics: spatial information and place field correlations. It is therefore unclear if the results from Figures 3 and 4 are specific to sparseness or extend to the other two metrics. For example, are these other metrics of drift also insensitive to most of the Feedforward Network parameters as shown in Figure 3 and the related text? These concerns could be addressed with panels analogous to Figures 3a-c and 4b for the other metrics and will increase the reproducibility of this work.

      We note that the results from figures 3 and 4 (original manuscript) are based on abstract tasks, while in figure 2 there is a contextual notion of spatial position. Spatial position metrics are not applicable to the abstract tasks as they are simple random mapping of inputs, and there isn’t necessarily an underlying latent variable such as position. This transition between task types is better explained in the text now. In essence the spatial information and place field correlation changes are simply signatures of the movements in parameter space. In the abstract tasks their change becomes trivial, as the spatial information becomes strongly correlated with sparsity and place fields are simply the activity vectors of units. These are guaranteed to change as long as there are changes in the activity statistics. We present here the calculation of these metrics averaged over simulations for completeness.

      Author response image 1.

      PV correlation between training time points averaged over 362 simulations. (B) Mean SI of units normalized to first time step, averaged over 362 simulations. Red line shows the average time point of loss convergence, the shaded area represents one standard deviation.

      (2) Many caveats/exceptions to the generality of findings are mentioned only in the main text without any supporting figures, e.g., "For label noise, the dynamics were qualitatively different, the fraction of active units did not reduce, but the activity of the units did sparsify" (lines 116-117). Supporting figures are warranted to illustrate which findings are "qualitatively different" from the main model, which are not different from the main model, and which of the many parameters mentioned are important for reproducing the findings.

      We now added figures (S1, S2) that show this exactly. We also added a github to allow full reproduction.

      (3) Key details of the model used by the authors are not listed in the methods. While they are mentioned in reference 30 (Recanatesi et al., 2021), they need to be explicitly defined in the methods section to ensure future reproducibility.

      The details of the simulation are detailed in the methods sections. We also added a github to allow full reproducibility.

      (4) How different states of drift correspond to the three learning stages outlined by the authors is unclear. Specifically, it is not clear where the second stage ends, and the third stage begins, either in real neural data or in the figures. This is compounded by the fact that the third stage - of undirected, random manifold exploration - is only discussed in relation to the introductory Figure 1 and is never connected to the neural network data or actual brain data presented by the authors. Are both stages meant to represent drift? Or is only the second stage meant to mirror drift, while undirected random motion along a manifold is a prediction that could be tested in real neural data? Identifying where each stage occurs in Figures 2C and E, for example, would clearly illustrate which attributes of drift in hidden layer neurons and real hippocampal neurons correspond to each stage.

      Thanks for this comment, which urged us to better explain these concepts.

      The different processes (reduction in loss, reduction in Hessian) happen in parallel with different timescales. Thus, there are no sharp transitions between the phases. This is now explained in the text in relation to figure 4C, where the approximate boundaries are depicted.

      The term drift is often used to denote a change in representation without a change in behavior. In this sense, both the second and third phases correspond to drift. Only the third stage is stationary. This is now emphasized in the text and in the new Table 1. Regarding experimental data, apart from the new figure 3 with four datasets, we also summarize in Table 3 the relation between duration of familiarity and stationarity of the data.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      The reviewers have raised several concerns. They concur that the authors should address the specific points below to enhance the manuscript.

      (1) The three different phases of learning should be clearly delineated, along with how they are determined. It remains unclear in which exact phase the drift is observed.

      This is now clearly explained in the new Table 1 and Figure 4C. Note that the different processes (reduction in loss, reduction in Hessian) happen in parallel with different timescales. Thus, there are no sharp transitions between the phases. This is now explained in the text in relation to figure 4C, where the approximate boundaries are depicted.

      The term drift is often used to denote a change in representation without a change in behavior. In this sense, both the second and third phases correspond to drift. Only the third stage is stationary. This is now emphasized in the text and in the new Table 1. Regarding experimental data, apart from the new figure 3 with four datasets, we also summarize in Table 3 the relation between duration of familiarity and stationarity of the data.

      (2) The term "sparsification" of unit activity is not fully clear. Its meaning should be more explicitly explained, especially since, in the simulations, a significant number of units appear to remain active (Fig. 3A).

      We now define precisely the two measures we use - Active Fraction, and Fraction Active Units. There is a new section with an accompanying figure in the Methods section. As Figure S2 shows, the noise statistics (label noise vs. update noise) differentially affects these two measures.

      (3) While the study primarily focuses on one aspect of representational drift-the proportion of active units-it should also explore other features traditionally associated with representational drift, such as spatial information and the correlation between place fields.

      This absence of features is related to the abstract nature of some of the tasks simulated in our paper. In our original submission the transition between a predictive coding task to more abstract tasks was not clearly explained, creating some confusion regarding the measured metrics. We now clarified the motivation for this transition.

      Both the initial simulation and the new experimental data analysis include spatial information (Figures 2,3). The following simulations (Figure 4) with many parameter choices use more abstract tasks, for which the notion of correlation between place cells and spatial information loses its meaning as there is no spatial ordering of the inputs, and every input is encountered only once. Spatial information becomes strongly correlated with the inverse of the active fraction metric. The correlation between place cells is also directly linked to increase in sparseness for these tasks.

      (4) There should be a clearer illustration of how labeling noise influences learning dynamics and sparsification.

      This was indeed confusing in the original submission. We removed the simulations with label noise from Figure 4, and added a supplementary figure (S2) illustrating the different effects of label noise.

      (5) The representational drift observed in this study's simulations appears to be nonstationary, which differs from in vivo reports. The reasons for this discrepancy should be clarified.

      We added experimental results from three additional labs demonstrating a change in activity statistics (i.e. increase in spatial information and increase in sparseness) over a long period of time. We suggest that such a change long after the environment is already familiar is an indication for the second phase, and stress that this change seems to saturate at some point, and that most drift papers start collecting data after this saturation, hence this effect was missed in previous in vivo reports. Furthermore, these effects are become more abundant with the advent on new calcium imaging methods, as the older electrophysiological regording methods did not usually allow recording of large amounts of cells for long periods of time. The new Table 3 surveys several experimental papers, emphasizing the degree of familiarity with the environment.

      (6) A distinctive feature of the hippocampus is its ability to learn different spatial representations for various environments. The study does not test representational drift in this context, a topic of significant interest to the community. Whether the authors choose to delve into this is up to them, but it should at least be discussed more comprehensively, as it's only briefly touched upon in the current manuscript version.

      There are two facets to the topic of multiple environments. First, are the results of the current paper relevant when there are multiple environments? Second, what is the interaction between brain mechanisms of dealing with multiple environments and the results of the current paper?

      We believe the answer to the first question is positive. The near-orthogonality of representations between environments implies that changes in one can happen without changes in the other. This is evident, for instance, in Khatib et al and Geva et al - in both cases, drift seems to happen independently in two environments, even though they are visited intermittently and are visually similar.

      The second question is a fascinating one, and we are planning to pursue it in future work. While the exact way in which the brain achieves this near-independence is an open question, remapping is one possible window into this process.

      We extended the discussion to make these points clear.

      (7) The methods section should offer more details about the neural nets employed in the study. The manuscript should be explicit about the terms "hidden layer", "units", and "neurons", ensuring they are defined clearly and not used interchangeably..

      We changed the usage of these terms to be more coherent and made our code publicly available. Specifically, “units” refer to artificial networks and “neurons” to biological ones.

      In addition, each reviewer has raised both major and minor concerns. These are listed below and should be addressed where possible.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I recommend that the authors edit the text to soften their claims. For example:

      In the abstract "To uncover the underlying mechanism, we..." could be changed to "To investigate, we..."

      Agree. Done

      On line 21, "Specifically, recent studies showed that..." could be changed to "Specifically, recent studies suggest that..."

      Agree. Done

      On line 100, "All cases" should probably be softened to "Most cases" or more details should be added to Figure 3 to support the claim that every simulation truly had a phase of directed random motion.

      The text was changed in accordance with the reviewer’s suggestion. In addition, the figure was changed and only includes simulations in which we expected unit sparsity to arise (without label noise). We also added explanations and supplementary figures for label noise.

      Unless I missed something obvious, there is no new experimental data analysis reported in the paper. Thus, line 159 of the discussion, "a phenomenon we also observed in experimental data" should be changed to "a phenomenon that recently reported in experimental data."

      We thank the reviewer for drawing our attention to this. We now analyzed data from three other labs, two of which are novel analyses on existing data. All four datasets show the same trends of sparseness with increasing spatial information. The new Figure 3 and text now describe this.

      On line 179 of the Discussion, "a family of network configurations that have identical performance..." could be softened to "nearly identical performance." It would be possible for networks to have minuscule differences in performance that are not detected due to stochastic batch effects or limits on machine precision.

      The text was changed in accordance with the reviewer’s suggestion.

      Other minor comments:

      Citation 44 is missing the conference venue, please check all citations are formatted properly.

      Corrected.

      In the discussion on line 184, the connection to remapping was confusing to me, particularly because the cited reference (Sanders et al. 2020) is more of a conceptual model than an artificial network model that could be adapted to the setting of noisy learning considered in this paper. How would an RNN model of remapping (e.g. Low et al. 2023; Remapping in a recurrent neural network model of navigation and context inference) be expected to behave during the sparsifying portion of drift?

      We now clarified this section. The conceptual model of Sanders et al includes a specific prediction (Figure 7 there) which is very similar to ours - a systematic change in robustness depending on duration of training. Regarding the Low et al model, using such mechanistic models is an exciting avenue for future research.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I only have two major questions.

      (1) Learning multiple representations: Memory systems in the brain typically must store many distinct memories. Certainly, the hippocampus, where RD is prominent, is involved in the ongoing storage of episodic memories. But even in the idealized case of just two spatial memories, for example, two distinct linear tracks, how would this learning process look? Would there be any interference between the two learning processes or would they be largely independent? Is the separation of time scales robust to the number of representations stored? I understand that to answer this question fully probably requires a research effort that goes well beyond the current study, but perhaps an example could be shown with two environments. At the very least the authors could express their thoughts on the matter.

      There are two facets to the topic of multiple environments. First, are the results of the current paper relevant when there are multiple environments? Second, what is the interaction between brain mechanisms of dealing with multiple environments and the results of the current paper?

      We believe the answer to the first question is positive. The near-orthogonality of representations between environments implies that changes in one can happen without changes in the other. This is evident, for instance, in Khatib et al and Geva et al - in both cases, drift seems to happen independently in two environments, even though they are visited intermittently and are visually similar.

      The second question is a fascinating one, and we are planning to pursue it in future work. While the exact way in which the brain achieves this near-independence is an open question, remapping is one possible window into this process.

      We extended the discussion to make these points clear.

      (2) Directed drift versus stationarity: I could not help but notice that the RD illustrated in Fig.2D is not stationary in nature, i.e. the upper right and lower left panels are quite different. This appears to contrast with findings in the hippocampus, for example, Fig.3e-g in (Ziv et al, 2013). Perhaps it is obvious that a directed process will not be stationary, but the authors note that there is a third phase of steady-state null drift. Is the RD seen there stationary? Basically, I wonder if the process the authors are studying is relevant only as a novel environment becomes familiar, or if it is also applicable to RD in an already familiar environment. Please discuss the issue of stationarity in this context.

      The non-stationarity noted by the reviewer is indeed a major feature of our observations, and is indeed linked to familiarity. We divide learning into three phases (now more clearly stated in Table 1 and Figure 4C). The first, rapid, phase consists of improvement of performance - corresponding to initial familiarity with the environment. The third phase, often reported in the literature of representational drift, is indeed stationary and obtained after prolonged familiarity. Our work focuses on the second phase, which is not as immediate as the first one, and can take several days. We note in the discussion that experiments which include a long familiarization process can miss this phase (see also Table 3). Furthermore, we speculate that real life is less stationary than a lab environment, and this second phase might actually be more relevant there.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Most of my general recommendations are outlined in the public review. A large portion of my comments regards increasing clarity and explicitly defining many of the terms used which may require generating more figures (to better illustrate the generality of findings) or modifying existing figures (e.g., to show how/where the three stages of learning map onto the authors' data).

      Sparsification is not clearly defined in the main text. As I read it, sparsification is meant to refer to the activity of neurons, but this needs to be clearly defined. For example, lines 262-263 in the methods define "sparseness" by the number of active units, but lines 116-117 state: "For label noise, the dynamics were qualitatively different, the fraction of active units did not reduce, but the activity of the units did sparsify." If the fraction of active units (defined as "sparseness") did not change, what does it mean that the activity of the units "sparsified"? If the authors mean that the spatial activity patterns of hidden units became more sharply tuned, this should be clearly stated.

      We now defined precisely the two measures we use - Active Fraction, and Fraction Active Units. There is a new section with an accompanying figure in the Methods section. As Figure S2 shows, the noise statistics (label noise vs. update noise) differentially affects these two measures.

      Likewise, it is unclear which of the features the authors outlined - spatial information, active proportion of units, and spatial correlation - are meant to represent drift. The authors should clearly delineate which of these three metrics they mean to delineate drift in the main text rather than leave it to the reader to infer. While all three are mentioned early on in the text (Figure 2), the authors focus more on sparseness in the last half of the text, making it unclear if it is just sparseness that the authors mean to represent drift or the other metrics as well.

      The main focus of our paper is on the non-stationarity of drift. Namely that features (such as these three) systematically change in a directed manner as part of the drift process. This is in The new analyses of experimental data show sparseness and spatial information.

      The focus on sparseness in the second half of the paper is because we move to more abstract These are also easy to study in the more abstract tasks in the second part of the paper. In our original submission the transition between a predictive coding task to more abstract tasks was not clearly explained, creating some confusion regarding the measured metrics. We now clarified the motivation for this transition.

      It is not clear if a change in the number of active units alone constitutes "drift", especially since Geva et al. (2023) recently showed that both changes in firing rate AND place field location drive drift, and that the passage of time drives changes in activity rate (or # cells active).

      Our work did not deal with purely time-dependent drift, but rather focused on experience-dependence. Furthermore, Geva et al study the stationary phase of drift, where we do not expect a systematic change in the total number of cells active. They report changes in the average firing rate of active cells in this phase, as a function of time - which does not contradict our findings.

      "hidden layer", "units", and "neurons" seem to be used interchangeably in the text (e.g., line 81-85). However, this is confusing in several places, in particular in lines 83-85 where "neurons" is used twice. The first usage appears to refer to the rate maps of the hidden layer units simulated by the authors, while the second "neurons" appears to refer to real data from Ziv 2013 (ref 5). The authors should make it explicit whether they are referring to hidden layer units or actual neurons to avoid reader confusion.

      We changed the usage of these terms to be more coherent. Specifically, “units” refer to artificial networks and “neurons” to biological ones.

      The authors should clearly illustrate which parts of their findings support their three-phase learning theory. For example, does 2E illustrate these phases, with the first tenth of training time points illustrating the early phase, time 0.1-0.4 illustrating the intermediate phase, and 0.4-1 illustrating the last phase? Additionally, they should clarify whether the second and third stages are meant to represent drift, or is it only the second stage of directed manifold exploration that is considered to represent drift? This is unclear from the main text.

      The different processes (reduction in loss, reduction in Hessian) happen in parallel with different timescales. Thus, there are no sharp transitions between the phases. This is now explained in the text in relation to figure 4C, where the approximate boundaries are depicted.

      The term drift is often used to denote a change in representation without a change in behavior. In this sense, both the second and third phases correspond to drift. Only the third stage is stationary. This is now emphasized in the text and in the new Table 1. Regarding experimental data, apart from the new figure 3 with four datasets, we also summarize in Table 3 the relation between duration of familiarity and stationarity of the data.

      Line 45 - It appears that the acronym ML is not defined above here anywhere.

      Added.

      Line 71: the ReLU function should be defined in the text, e.g., sigma(x) = x if x > 0 else 0.

      Added.

      106-107: Figures (or supplemental figures) to demonstrate how most parameters do not influence sparsification dynamics are warranted. As written, it is unclear what "most parameters" mean - all but noise scale. What about the learning rule? Are there any interactions between parameters?

      We now removed the label noise from Figure 4, and added two supplementary figures to clearly explain the effect of parameters. Figure 4 itself was also redone to clarify this issue.

      2F middle: should "change" be omitted for SI?

      The panel was replaced by a new one in Figure 3.

      116-119: A figure showing how results differ for label noise is warranted.

      This is now done in Figure S1, S2.

      124: typo, The -> the

      Corrected.

      127-129: This conclusion statement is the first place in the text where the three stages are explicitly outlined. There does not appear to be any support or further explanation of these stages in the text above.

      We now explain this earlier at the end of the Introduction section, along with the new Table 1 and marking on Figure 4C.

      132-133 seems to be more of a statement and less of a prediction or conclusion - do the authors mean "the flatness of the loss landscape in the vicinity of the solution predicts the rate of sparsification?"

      We thank the reviewer for this observation. The sentence was rephrased:

      Old: As illustrated in Fig. 1, different solutions in the zero-loss manifold might vary in some of their properties. The specific property suggested from theory is the flatness of the loss landscape in the vicinity of the solution.

      New: As illustrated in Fig. 1, solutions in the zero-loss manifold have identical loss, but might vary in some of their properties. The authors of [26] suggest that noisy learning will slowly increase the flatness of the loss landscape in the vicinity of the solution.

      135: typo, it's -> its

      Corrected.

      Line 135-136 "Crucially, the loss on the 136 entire manifold is exactly zero..." This appears to contradict the Figure 4A legend - the loss appears to be very high near the top and bottom edges of the manifold in 4A. Do the authors mean that the loss along the horizontal axis of the manifold is zero?

      The reviewer is correct. The manifold mentioned in the sentence is indeed the horizontal axis. We changed the text and the figure to make it clearer.

      Equation 6: This does not appear to agree with equation 2 - should there be an E_t term for an expectation function?

      Corrected.

      Line 262-263: "Sparseness means that a unit has become inactive for all inputs." This should also be stated explicitly as the definition of sparseness/sparsification in the main text.

      We now define precisely the two measures we use - Active Fraction, and Fraction Active Units. There is a new section with an accompanying figure in the Methods section. As Figure S2 shows, the noise statistics (label noise vs. update noise) differentially affects these two measures.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses:

      The comparison of affinity predictions derived from AlphaFold2 and H3-opt models, based on molecular dynamics simulations, should have been discussed in depth. In some cases, there are huge differences between the estimations from H3-opt models and those from experimental structures. It seems that the authors obtained average differences of the real delta, instead of average differences of the absolute value of the delta. This can be misleading, because high negative differences might be compensated by high positive differences when computing the mean value. Moreover, it would have been good for the authors to disclose the trajectories from the MD simulations.

      Thanks for your careful checks. We fully understand your concerns about the large differences when calculating affinity. To understand the source of these huge differences, we carefully analyzed the trajectories of the input structures during MD simulations. We found that the antigen-antibody complex shifted as it transited from NVT to NPT during pre-equilibrium, even when restraints are used to determine the protein structure. To address this issue, we consulted the solution provided on Amber's mailing list (http://archive.ambermd.org/202102/0298.html) and modified the top file ATOMS_MOLECULE item of the simulation system to merge the antigen-antibody complexes into one molecule. As a result, the number of SOLVENT_POINTERS was also adjusted. Finally, we performed all MD simulations and calculated affinities of all complexes.

      We have corrected the “Afterwards, a 25000-step NVT simulation with a time step of 1 fs was performed to gradually heat the system from 0 K to 100 K. A 250000-step NPT simulation with a time step of 2 fs was carried out to further heat the system from 100 K to 298 K.” into “Afterwards, a 400-ps NVT simulation with a time step of 2 fs was performed to gradually heat the system from 0 K to 298 K (0–100 K: 100 ps; 100-298 K: 200 ps; hold 298 K: 100 ps), and a 100-ps NPT simulation with a time step of 2 fs was performed to equilibrate the density of the system. During heating and density equilibration, we constrained the antigen-antibody structure with a restraint value of 10 kcal×mol-1×Å-2.” and added the following sentence in the Method section of our revised manuscript: “The first 50 ns restrains the non-hydrogen atoms of the antigen-antibody complex, and the last 50 ns restrains the non-hydrogen atoms of the antigen, with a constraint value of 10 kcal×mol-1×Å-2”

      In addition, we have corrected the calculation of mean deltas using absolute values and have demonstrated that the average affinities of structures predicted by H3-OPT were closer to those of experimentally determined structures than values obtained through AF2. These results have been updated in the revised manuscript. However, significant differences still exist between the estimations of H3-OPT models and those derived from experimental structures in few cases. We found that antibodies moved away from antigens both in AF2 and H3-OPT predicted complexes during simulations, resulting in RMSDbackbone (RMSD of antibody backbone) exceeding 20 Å. These deviations led to significant structural changes in the complexes and consequently resulted in notable differences in affinity calculations. Thus, we removed three samples (PDBID: 4qhu, 6flc, 6plk) from benchmark because these predicted structures moved away from the antigen structure during MD simulations, resulting in huge energy differences from the native structures.

      Author response table 1.

      We also appreciate your reminder, and we have calculated all RMSDbackbone during production runs (SI Fig. 5).

      Author response image 1.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses:

      The proposed method lacks of a confidence score or a warning to help guiding the users in moderate to challenging cases.

      We were sorry for our mistakes. We have updated our GitHub code and added following sentences to clarify how we train this confidence score module in Method Section: “Confidence score prediction module

      We apply an MSE loss for confidence prediction, label error was calculated as the Cα deviation of each residue after alignment. The inputs of this module are the same as those used for H3-OPT, and it generates a confidence score ranging from 0 to 100. The dropout rates of H3-OPT were set to 0.25. The learning rate and weight decay of Adam optimizer are set to 1 × 10−5 and 1 × 10−4, respectively.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I would strongly suggest that the authors deepen their discussion on the affinity prediction based on Molecular Dynamics. In particular, why do the authors think that some structures exhibit huge differences between the predictions from the experimental structure and the predicted by H3-opt? Also, please compute the mean deltas using the absolute value and not the real value; the letter can be extremely misleading and hidden very high differences in different directions that are compensating when averaging.

      I would also advice to include graphical results of the MD trajectories, at least as Supp. Material.

      We gratefully thank you for your feedback and fully understand your concerns. We found the source of these huge differences and solved this problem by changing method of MD simulations. Then, we calculated all affinities and corrected the mean deltas calculation using the absolute value. The RMSDbackbone values were also measured to enable accurate affinity predictions during production runs (SI Fig. 5). There are still big differences between the estimations of H3-OPT models and those from experimental structures in some cases. We found that antibodies moved away from antigens both in AF2 and H3-OPT predicted complexes during simulations, resulting in RMSDbackbone exceeding 20 Å. These deviations led to significant structural changes in the complexes and consequently resulted in notable differences in affinity calculations. Thus, we removed three samples (PDBID: 4qhu, 6flc, 6plk) from benchmark.

      Thanks again for your professional advice.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) I am pleased with the most of the answers provided by the authors to the first review. In my humble opinion, the new manuscript has greatly improved. However, I think some answers to the reviewers are worth to be included in the main text or supporting information for the benefit of general readers. In particular, the requested statistics (i.e. p-values for Cα-RMSD values across the modeling approaches, p-values and error bars in Fig 5a and 5b, etc.) should be introduced in the manuscript.

      We sincerely appreciate your advice. We have added the statistics values to Fig. 4 and Fig. 5 to our manuscript.

      Author response image 2.

      Author response image 3.

      (2) Similarly, authors state in the answers that "we have trained a separate module to predict the confidence score of the optimized CDR-H3 loops". That sounds a great improvement to H3-OPT! However, I couldn't find any reference of that new module in the reviewed version of the manuscript, nor in the available GitHub code. That is the reason for me to hold the weakness "The proposed method lacks of a confidence score".

      We were really sorry for our careless mistakes. Thank you for your reminding. We have updated our GitHub code and added following sentences to clarify how we train this confidence score module in Method Section:

      “Confidence score prediction module

      We apply an MSE loss for confidence prediction, label error was calculated as the Cα deviation of each residue after alignment. The inputs of this module are the same as those used for H3-OPT, and it generates a confidence score ranging from 0 to 100. The dropout rates of H3-OPT were set to 0.25. The learning rate and weight decay of Adam optimizer are set to 1 × 10−5 and 1 × 10−4, respectively.”

      (3) I acknowledge all the efforts made for solving new mutant/designed nanobody structures. Judging from the solved structures, mutants Y95F and Q118N seems critical to either crystallographic or dimerization contacts stabilizing the CDR-H3 loop, hence preventing the formation of crystals. Clearly, solving a molecular structure is a challenge, hence including the following comment in the manuscript is relevant for readers to correctly asset the magnitude of the validation: "The sequence identities of the VH domain and H3 loop are 0.816 and 0.647, respectively, comparing with the best template. The CDR-H3 lengths of these nanobodies are both 17. According to our classification strategy, these nanobodies belong to Sub1. The confidence scores of these AlphaFold2 predicted loops were all higher than 0.8, and these loops were accepted as the outputs of H3-OPT by CBM."

      We appreciate your kind recommendations and have revised “Although Mut1 (E45A) and Mut2 (Q14N) shared the same CDR-H3 sequences as WT, only minor variations were observed in the CDR-H3. H3-OPT generated accurate predictions with Cα-RMSDs of 1.510 Å, 1.541 Å and 1.411 Å for the WT, Mut1, and Mut2, respectively.” into “Although Mut1 (E45A) and Mut2 (Q14N) shared the same CDR-H3 sequences as WT (LengthCDR-H3 = 17), only minor variations were observed in the CDR-H3. H3-OPT generated accurate predictions with Cα-RMSDs of 1.510 Å, 1.541 Å and 1.411 Å for the WT, Mut1, and Mut2, respectively (The confidence scores of these AlphaFold2 predicted loops were all higher than 0.8, and these loops were accepted as the outputs of H3-OPT by CBM). ”. In addition, we have added following sentence in the legend of Figure 4 to ensure that readers can appropriately evaluate the significance and reliability of our validations: “The sequence identities of the VH domain and H3 loop are 0.816 and 0.647, respectively, comparing with the best template.”.

      (4) As pointed out in the first review, I think the work https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.jctc.1c00341 is worth acknowledging in section "2.2 Molecular dynamics (MD) simulations could not provide accurate CDR-H3 loop conformations" of supplementary material, as it constitutes a clear reference (and probably one of the few) to the MD simulations that authors pretend to perform. Similarly, the work https://doi.org/10.3390/molecules28103991 introduces a former benchmark on AI algorithms for predicting antibody and nanobody structures that readers may find interest to contrast with the present work. Indeed, this later reference is used by authors to answer a reviewer comment.

      Thanks a lot for your valuable comments. We have added these references in the proper positions in our manuscript.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review)

      Summary:

      Huang and colleagues present a method for approximation of linkage disequilibrium (LD) matrices. The problem of computing LD matrices is the problem of computing a correlation matrix. In the cases considered by the authors, the number of rows (n), corresponding to individuals, is small compared to the number of columns (m), corresponding to the number of variants. Computing the correlation matrix has cubic time complexity , which is prohibitive for large samples. The authors approach this using three main strategies:

      1. they compute a coarsened approximation of the LD matrix by dividing the genome into variant-wise blocks which statistics are effectively averaged over;

      2. they use a trick to get the coarsened LD matrix from a coarsened genomic relatedness matrix (GRM), which, with time complexity, is faster when n << m;

      3. they use the Mailman algorithm to improve the speed of basic linear algebra operations by a factor of log(max(m,n)). The authors apply this approach to several datasets.

      Strengths:

      The authors demonstrate that their proposed method performs in line with theoretical explanations.

      The coarsened LD matrix is useful for describing global patterns of LD, which do not necessarily require variant-level resolution.

      They provide an open-source implementation of their software.

      Weaknesses:

      The coarsened LD matrix is of limited utility outside of analyzing macroscale LD characteristics. The method still essentially has cubic complexity--albeit the factors are smaller and Mailman reduces this appreciably. It would be interesting if the authors were able to apply randomized or iterative approaches to achieve more fundamental gains. The algorithm remains slow when n is large and/or the grid resolution is increased.

      Thanks for your positive and accurate evaluation! We acknowledge the weakness and include some sentences in Discussion.

      “The weakness of the proposed method is obvious that the algorithm remains slow when the sample size is large or the grid resolution is increased. With the availability of such as UK Biobank data (Bycroft et al., 2018), the proposed method may not be adequate, and much advanced methods, such as randomized implementation for the proposed methods, are needed.”  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review)

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors point out that the standard approach of estimating LD is inefficient for datasets with large numbers of SNPs, with a computational cost of , where n is the number of individuals and m is the number of SNPs. Using the known relationship between the LD matrix and the genomic- relatedness matrix, they can calculate the mean level of LD within the genome or across genomic segments with a computational cost of . Since in most datasets, n<<m, this can lead to major computational improvements. They have produced software written in C++ to implement this algorithm, which they call X-LD. Using the output of their method, they estimate the LD decay and the mean extended LD for various subpopulations from the 1000 Genomes Project data.

      Strengths:

      Generally, for computational papers like this, the proof is in the pudding, and the authors appear to have been successful at their aim of producing an efficient computational tool. The most compelling evidence of this in the paper is Figure 2 and Supplementary Figure S2. In Figure 2, they report how well their X- LD estimates of LD compare to estimates based on the standard approach using PLINK. They appear to have very good agreement. In Figure S2, they report the computational runtime of X-LD vs PLINK, and as expected X-LD is faster than PLINK as long as it is evaluating LD for more than 8000 SNPs.

      Weakness:

      While the X-LD software appears to work well, I had a hard time following the manuscript enough to make a very good assessment of the work. This is partly because many parameters used are not defined clearly or at all in some cases. My best effort to intuit what the parameters meant often led me to find what appeared to be errors in their derivation. As a result, I am left worrying if the performance of X-LD is due to errors cancelling out in the particular setting they consider, making it potentially prone to errors when taken to different contexts.

      Thanks for you critical reading and evaluation. We do feel apologize for typos, which have been corrected and clearly defined now (see Eq 1 and Table 1). In addition, we include more detailed mathematical steps, which explain how LD decay regression is constructed and consequently finds its interpretation (see the detailed derivation steps between Eq 3 and Eq 4).

      Impact:

      I feel like there is value in the work that has been done here if there were more clarity in the writing. Currently, LD calculations are a costly step in tools like LD score regression and Bayesian prediction algorithms, so a more efficient way to conduct these calculations would be useful broadly. However, given the difficulty I had following the manuscript, I was not able to assess when the authors’ approach would be appropriate for an extension such as that.

      See our replies below in responding to your more detailed questions.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      There are numerous linguistic errors throughout, making it challenging to read.

      It is unclear how the intercepts were chosen in Figure S2. Since theory only gives you the slopes, it seems like it would make more sense to choose the intercept such that it aligns with the empirical results in some way.

      Thanks for your critical evaluation. We do feel apologize some typos, and we have read it through and clarify the text as much as possible. In addition, we included Table 1, which introduces mathematical symbols of the paper.

      In Figure S2, the two algorithms being compared have different software implementations, PLINK vs X-LD. Their real performance not only depended on the time complexity of the algorithms (right-side y-axis), but also how the software was coded. PLINK is known for its excellent programming. If we could have programmed as well as Chris Chang, the performance of X-LD should have been even better and approach the ratio m/n. However, even under less skilled programming, X-LD outperformed plink.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Thank you for the chance to review your manuscript. It looks like compelling work that could be improved by greater detail. Providing the level of detail necessary may require creating a Supplementary Note that does a lot of hand-holding for readers like me who are mathematically literate but who don’t have the background that you do. Then you can refer readers to the Supplement if they can’t follow your work.

      We fix the problems and style issues as possible as we can.

      Regarding the weakness section in the public review, here are a few examples of where I got confused, though this list is not exhaustive.

      1) Consider Equation 1 (line 100), which I believe must be incorrect. Imagine that g consists of two SNPs on different chromosomes with correlation rho. Then ell_g (which is defined as the average squared elements of the correlation matrix) would be

      ell_g = 1/4 (1 + 1 + rho^2 + rho^2) = (1+rho^2)/2.

      But ell_1=1 and ell_2=1 and ell_12=rho^2 (The average squared elements of the chromosome-specific correlation matrices and the cross-chromosome correlation matrix, respectively). So

      sum(ell_i)+sum(ell_ij) = 1 + 1 + rho^2 + rho^2 = (1+rho^2)*2.

      I believe your formulas would hold if you defined your LD values as the sum of squared correlations instead of the mean, but then I don’t know if the math in the subsequent sections holds. I think this problem also holds for Eq 2 and therefore makes Eqs 3 and 4 difficult to interpret.

      Thanks for your attentive review and invaluable suggestions. We acknowledge the typo in calculating the mean in Eq 1, resulting in difficulties in understanding the equations. We sincerely apologize for this oversight. To address this issue and ensure clarity in the interpretation of Eq 3 and Eq 4, we have provided more detailed explanations (see the derivation between Eq 3 and Eq 4).

      2) I didn’t know what the parameters are in Equation 3. The vector ell needs to be defined. Is it the vector of ell_i for each chromosomal segment i? I’m also confused by the definition of m_i, which is defined on line 113 as the “SNP number of the i-th chromosome.” Do the authors mean the number of SNPs on the i-th chromosomal segment? If so, it wasn’t clear to me how Eq 2 and Eq 3 imply Eq 4. Further, it wasn’t clear to me why E(b1) quantifies the average LD decay of the genome. I’m used to seeing plots of average LD as a function of distance between SNPs to calculate this, though I’m admittedly not a population geneticist, so maybe this is standard. Standard or not, readers deserve to have their hands held a bit more through this either in the text or in a Supplementary Note.

      Thanks for your insightful feedback. When we were writing this paper, our actually focus was Eq 3 and to establish the relationship between chromosomal LD and the reciprocal of the length of chromosome (Fig 6A) – which was surrogated by the number of SNPs, the correlation between ell_i and 1/m_i.

      We asked around our friends who are population geneticists, who anticipated the correlation between chromosomal LD (ell) and 1/m. The rationale simple if one knows the very basis of population genetics. A long chromosome experiences more recombination, which weakens LD for a pair of loci. In particular, for a pair of loci D_t=D_0 (1-c)^t. D_t the LD at the t generation, D_0 at the 0 generation, and c the recombination fraction. As recombination hotspots are nearly even distributed along the genome, such as reported by Science 2019;363:eaau8861, the chromosome will be broken into the shape in Author response image 1 (Fig 1C, newly added). Along the diagonal you see tight LD block, which will be vanished in the further as predicted by D_t equation, and any loci far away from each other will not be in LD otherwise raised by such as population structure. Ideally, we assume the diagonal block of aveage size of m×m and average LD of a SNP with other SNPs inside the diagonal block (red) is l_u; and, in contrast, off-diagonal average LD (light red) to be l_uv. This logic is hidden but employed in such as ld score regression and prs refinement using LD structure.

      Author response image 1.

      But, how to estimate chromosomal LD (ell), which is overwhelming as our friends said! So, the Figure 6A is logically anticipated by a seasoned population geneticist, but has never been realized because of is nightmare. Often, those signature patterns should have been employed as showcases in releasing new reference data, such as HapMap. However, to our knowledge, this signature linear relationship has never been illustrated in those reference data.

      If you further test a population geneticist, if any chromosome will deviate from this line (Fig 6A)? The answer most likely will be chromosome 6 because of the LD tight HLA region. However, it is chromosome 11 because of its most completed sequenced centromere. Chr 11 is a surprise! With T2T sequenced population, Chr 11 will not deviate much. We predict!

      However, we suspect whether people appreciate this point, we shift our focus to efficient computation of LD—which is more likely understood. We acknowledge the lack of clarity in notation definitions and the absence of the derivation for the interpretation of b1 and b0 for LD decay regression. So, we have added a table to provide an explanation of the notation (see the Table 1) and provided additional derivations, which explained how LD decay regression was derived (see the derivation between Eq 3 and Eq 4). Figure 1C provides illustration for the underlying assumption under LD.

      The technique to bridge Eq 2~3 to Eq 4 is called “building interpretation”. It once was one of the kernel tasks for population genetics or statistical genetics, and a classical example is Haseman-Elston regression (Behavior Genetics, 1972, 2:3-19). When it is moving towards a data-driven style, the culture becomes “shut up, calculate”. Finding interpretation for a regression is a vanishing craftmanship, and people often end up with unclear results!

      3) In line 135, it’s not clear to me what is meant by . If it is , then wouldn’t the resulting matrix be a matrix of zeros since is zero everywhere except the lower off-diagonal? So maybe it is ? But then later in that line, you say that the square of this matrix is the sum of several terms of the form . Are these the scalar elements of the G matrix? But then the sum is a scalar, which can’t be true since is a matrix.

      Thanks for your attentive review. We indeed confused the definition of matrices and their elements, and should refer to the stacked off-diagonal elements of matrix . So, is a vector for variable – the relationship between sample i and j. We assume the reviewer use R software, then corresponds to mean .

      See the text between Eq 5 and Eq 6.

      “We extract two vectors , which stacks the off-diagonal elements of , and , which takes the diagonal elements of .”

      In addition, , so the ground truth is that , but not zero.

      To clarify these math symbols, we replace G with K, so as to be consistent with our other works (see Table 1).

      To derive the means and the sampling variances for and , the Eq 7 can be established by some modifications on the Delta method as exampled in Appendix I of Lynch and Walsh’s book (Lynch and Walsh, 1998). We added this sentence near Eq 7 in the main text.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Please make corrections as suggested by reviewer 1 to improve the manuscript. Specifically, reviewer 1 suggests making changes to p values in Figure 5, and the importance of citing original scholarly works related to effects of increase in excitability of sympathetic neurons by M1 receptors, and the terminology for M currents and KCNQ currents. These changes will improve the manuscript and are strongly recommended.

      The section dealing with Aging Reduces KCNQ currents seems to contain a lot of extraneous information especially in the last part of the long paragraph and this section should be rewritten for improved clarity and - the implications or lack thereof - of the correlation of KCNQ with AP firing rates. The apparent lack of correlation between KCNQ current and KCNQ2 protein needs to be better explained. This is a central part of the study and this result undercuts the premise of the paper. Additionally, the poor specificity of Linordipine for KCNQ should be pointed out in the limitations.

      Finally, the editor notes that the author response should not contain ambiguities in what was addressed in the revision. In the original summary of consolidated revisions that were requested, one clearly and separately stated point (point 4) was that experiments in slice cultures should be strongly considered to extend the significance of the work to an intact brain preparation. The author response letter seems to imply that this was done, but this is not the case. The author response seems to have combined this point with another separate point (point 3) about using KCNQ drugs, and imply that all concerns were addressed. Authors should be clear about what revisions were in fact addressed.

      Summary of recommendations from the three reviewers:

      Please make corrections as suggested by reviewer 1 to improve the manuscript.

      Specifically, reviewer 1 suggests making changes to p values in Figure 5,

      As a team, we have decided to keep p values. Here is our rationale:

      Our lab favors reporting p-values for all statistical comparisons to help readers identify what we consider statistically significant. We color-coded the p-values, with red for p-value < 0.05 and black for p-value > 0.05. As a reader, seeing a p-value=0.7 allows me to know that the authors performed an analysis comparing these conditions and found the mean not to be different. Not presenting the p-value makes me wonder whether the authors even analyzed those groups. We value the ability to analyze the data by seeing all p-values than not being distracted by non-significant p-values.

      and the importance of citing original scholarly works related to effects of increase in excitability of sympathetic neurons by M1 receptors, and the terminology for M currents and KCNQ currents. These changes will improve the manuscript and are strongly recommended.

      We cited original papers on that area and changed the terminology for M current. I kept KCNQ when referring to the channel protein or abundance.

      The section dealing with Aging Reduces KCNQ currents seems to contain a lot of extraneous information especially in the last part of the long paragraph and this section should be rewritten for improved clarity… and - the implications or lack thereof - of the correlation of KCNQ with AP firing rates.

      I separated the long paragraph in two. I also removed extraneous information in that section. It now reads:

      Previous work by our group and others demonstrated that cholinergic stimulation leads to a decrease in M current and increases the excitability of sympathetic motor neurons at young ages.67-71 The molecular determinants of the M current are channels formed by KCNQ2 and KCNQ3 in these neurons.70, 76, 77 Thus, Figure 6A shows a voltage response (measured in current-clamp mode) and a consecutive M current recording (measured in voltage-clamp mode) in the same neuron upon stimulation of cholinergic type 1 muscarinic receptors. It illustrates the temporal correlation between the decrease of M current with the increase in excitability and firing of APs. This strong dependence led us to hypothesize that aging decreases M current, leading to a depolarized RMP and hyperexcitability (Figure 6B). For these experiments, we measured the RMP and evoked activity using perforated patch, followed by the amplitude of M current using a whole-cell voltage clamp in the same cell. We also measured the membrane capacitance as a proxy for cell size. Interestingly, M current density was smaller by 29% in middle age (7.5 ± 0.7 pA/pF) and by 55% in old (4.8 ± 0.7 pA/pF) compared to young (10.6 ± 1.5 pA/pF) neurons (Figure 6C-D). The average capacitance was similar in young (30.8 ± 2.2 pF), middle-aged (27.4 ± 1.2 pF), and old (28.8 ± 2.3 pF) neurons (Figure 6E), suggesting that aging is not associated with changes in cell size of sympathetic motor neurons, and supporting the hypothesis that aging alters the levels of M current. Next, we tested the effect on the abundance of the channels mediating M current. Contrary to our expectation, we observed that KCNQ2 protein levels were 1.5 ± 0.1 -fold higher in old compared to young neurons (Figure 6F-G). Unfortunately, we did not find an antibody to detect consistently KCNQ3 channels. We concluded that the decrease in M current is not caused by a decrease in the abundance of KCNQ2 protein.

      B. and - the implications or lack thereof - of the correlation of KCNQ with AP firing rates.

      I am not sure to understand the request in the section on the correlation of KCNQ with AP firing rate. I divided the long paragraph.

      The apparent lack of correlation between KCNQ current and KCNQ2 protein needs to be better explained. This is a central part of the study and this result undercuts the premise of the paper.

      Indeed, total KCNQ2 protein abundance increases while M current decreases. We do not claim in our work that changes in excitability are caused by a reduction in the expression or density of KCNQ2 channels. On the contrary, our current working hypothesis is that the reduction in M current is caused by changes in traffic, degradation, posttranslational modifications, or cofactors for KCNQ2 or KCNQ3 channels. I have modified the description in the results section and discussion to clarify this concept. We also note that the discussion section contains a paragraph discussing this discrepancy.

      Additionally, the poor specificity of Linordipine for KCNQ should be pointed out in the limitations.

      Thank you for the suggestion. I have added the following sentences to the Limitations section. It reads: “We want to point out that linopirdine has been reported to affect other ionic currents besides M current (Neacsu and Babes, 2010; Lamas et al., 1997). Despite this limitation, the application of linopirdine to young sympathetic motor neurons led to depolarization and firing of action potentials.”

      Finally, the editor notes that the author response should not contain ambiguities in what was addressed in the revision. In the original summary of consolidated revisions that were requested, one clearly and separately stated point (point 4) was that experiments in slice cultures should be strongly considered to extend the significance of the work to an intact brain preparation. The author response letter seems to imply that this was done, but this is not the case. The author response seems to have combined this point with another separate point (point 3) about using KCNQ drugs, and imply that all concerns were addressed. Authors should be clear about what revisions were in fact addressed.

      We apologize for this omission. After reviewing this comment, I realized I did not respond to the Major points in the section of the Recommendations for the authors from Reviewer 3. We missed that entire section. Our previous responses addressed the Public review of Reviewer 3. When doing so, we did not separate the sentences, omitting the request to perform the experiment in slices.

      The proposed experiments will require an upward microscope coupled to an electrophysiology rig; unfortunately, we do not have the equipment to do these experiments. We agree that our findings need to be tested in intact preparations to understand how the hyperactivity of sympathetic motor neurons affects systemic responses and the function of controlling organ function. This is a crucial step to move the field forward. Our laboratory is trying to find the appropriate experimental design to address this problem. We believe we must go beyond redoing these experiments in slices.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The significance values greater than p < 0.05 do not add anything and distract focus from the results that are meaningful. Fig. 5 is a good example. What does p = 0.7 mean? Or p = 0.6? Does this help the reader with useful information?

      We thank Reviewer 1 for raising this question. We have attempted different versions of how we report p values, as we want to make sure to address rigor and transparency in reporting data.

      Our lab favors reporting p-values for all statistical comparisons to help readers identify what we consider statistically significant. We color-coded the p-values, with red for p-value < 0.05 and black for p-value > 0.05. As a reader, seeing a p-value=0.7 allows me to know that the authors performed an analysis comparing these conditions and found the mean not to be different. Not presenting the p-value makes me wonder whether the authors even analyzed those groups. We value the ability to analyze the data by seeing all p-values than not being distracted by non-significant p-values.

      (2) Fig. 1 is not informative and should be removed.

      Although we agree with the reviewer that this figure is not informative, it was created to guide the reader in identifying the problem addressed in our manuscript in the physiological context. Our colleagues who read the first drafts of the manuscript recommended this, so we prefer to keep the figure.

      (3) The emphasis on a particular muscarinic agonist favored by many ion channel physiologists, oxotremorine, is not meaningful (lines 192, 198). The important point is stimulation of muscarinic AChRs, which physiologically are stimulated by acetylcholine. The particular muscarinic agonist used is unimportant. Unless mandated by eLife, "cholinergic type 1 muscarinic receptors" are usually referred to as M1 mAChRs, or even better is "Gq-coupled M1 mAChRs." I don't think that Kruse and Whitten, 2021 were the first to demonstrate the increase in excitability of sympathetic neurons from stimulation of M1 mAChRs. Please try and cite in a more scholarly fashion.

      A) We have modified lines 192 and 198, removing the mention of oxotremorine.

      B) We have modified the nomenclature used to refer to cholinergic type 1 muscarinic receptors.

      C) We cited references on the role of M current on sympathetic motor neuron excitability.

      (4) The authors may want to use the term "M current" (after defining it) as the current produced by KCNQ2&3-containing channels in sympathetic neurons, and reserve "KCNQ" or "Kv7" currents as those made by cloned KCNQ/Kv7 channels in heterologous systems. A reason for this is to exclude currents KCNQ1-containing channels, which most definitely do not contribute to the "KCNQ" current in these cells. I am not mandating this, but rather suggesting it to conform with the literature.

      Thank you for the suggestion. I have modified the text to use the term M current. I maintained the use of KCNQ only when referring to KCNQ channel, such as in the section describing the abundance of KCNQ2.

      (5) The section in the text on "Aging reduces KCNQ current" is confusing. Can the authors describe their results and their interpretation more directly?

      (6) Please explain the meaning of the increase in KCNQ2 abundance with age in Fig. 6G. How is this increase in KCNQ2 expression consistent with an increase in excitability? The explanation of "The decrease in KCNQ current and the increase in the abundance of KCNQ2 protein suggest a potential compensatory mechanism that occurs during aging, which we are actively investigating in an independent study." is rather odd, considering that the entire thesis of this paper is that changes in excitability and firing properties are underlied by changes in KCNQ2/3 channel expression/density. Suddenly, is this not the case?? What about KCNQ3? It would be very enlightening if the authors would just quantify the ratio of KCNQ2:KCNQ3 subunits in M-type channels in young and old mice using simple TEA dose/response curves (see Shapiro et al., JNS, 2000; Selyanko et al., J. Physiol., Hadley et al., Br. J. Pharm., 2001 and a great many more). It is also surprising that the authors did not assess or probe for differences in mAChR-induced suppression of M current between SCG neurons of young and old mice. This would seem to be a fundamental experiment in this line of inquiry.

      We have divided this paragraph in sections.

      A. Please explain the meaning of the increase in KCNQ2 abundance with age in Fig. 6G. How is this increase in KCNQ2 expression consistent with an increase in excitability? The explanation of "The decrease in KCNQ current and the increase in the abundance of KCNQ2 protein suggest a potential compensatory mechanism that occurs during aging, which we are actively investigating in an independent study." is rather odd, considering that the entire thesis of this paper is that changes in excitability and firing properties are underlied by changes in KCNQ2/3 channel expression/density. Suddenly, is this not the case??

      Our interpretation is that the decrease in M current is not caused by a decrease in the abundance of KCNQ (2) channels. We do not claim that changes in excitability are caused by a reduction in the expression or density of KCNQ2 channels. On the contrary, our working hypothesis is that the reduction in M current is caused by changes in traffic, degradation, posttranslational modifications, or cofactors for KCNQ2 or KCNQ3 channels. We have modified the description in the results section to clarify this concept. “We concluded that the decrease in M current is not caused by a decrease in the abundance of KCNQ2 protein.”

      B. What about KCNQ3?

      Unfortunately, we did not find an antibody to detect KCNQ3 channels. I have added a sentence to state this.

      C. KCNQ2: KCNQ3 subunits in M-type channels in young and old mice using simple TEA dose/response curves.

      Our laboratory is working to deeply understand the mechanism behind the changes in M current and its regulation by mAChRs in young and old ages. However, it is part of different research to attend to the complexity of the question. We think pharmacology experiments are insufficient to understand the question's complexity as we described in the next answer.

      D. It is also surprising that the authors did not assess or probe for differences in mAChR-induced suppression of M current between SCG neurons of young and old mice. This would seem to be a fundamental experiment in this line of inquiry.

      As mentioned, our laboratory is working to understand the mechanism behind M current and its regulation in young and old ages deeply. Our preliminary data show that M currents recorded in old neurons show two behaviors with the activation of mAChR: 1) they do not respond (blue line), or 2) they show a smaller and slower current inhibition than young neurons (red line). This data shows the complexity of the mechanism behind the M current in old neurons where changes in basal levels of PIP2, phospholipids metabolism, KCNQ2/3 changes in traffic/degradation, and M current pharmacology need to be addressed together for a proper interpretation. Showing only one part of this set of experiments in this article may lead to misinterpretation of results.

      Author response image 1.

      (7) Why do the authors use linopirdine instead of XE-991? Both are dirty drugs hardly specific to KCNQ channels at 25 uM concentrations, but linopirdine less so. The Methods section lists the source of XE991 used in the study, not linopirdine. Is there an error?

      A. Why do the authors use linopirdine instead of XE-991?

      We use linopiridine with the experimental goal of observing the recovery phase during the washout. The main difference between the effects of XE991 and linopiridine on Kv7.2/3 is associated with the recovery phase. Currents under XE991 treatment recover 30% after 10 min compared to 93.4% with linopiridine in expression systems at -30 mV (Greene DL et al., 2017, J Pharmacol Exp Ther). After validation of KCNQ2/3 inhibition by linopirdine (IC50 value of 2.4 µM), we found linopirdine the most appropriate drug for our experiments.

      Unfortunately, we were not able to observe a recovery in our experiments. The limited recovery after washout may be associated with the membrane potential of our conditions (-60 to -50 mV).

      B. Both are dirty drugs hardly specific to KCNQ channels at 25 uM concentrations, but linopirdine less so.

      We understand the concern of the reviewer. The specificity of XE-991 and linopiridine is not absolute. Linopiridine has been reported to activate TRPV1 channels (EC50 =115 µM, Neacsu and Babes, 2010, J Pharmacol Sci) or nicotinic acetylcholine receptors and GABA-induced Cl- currents (EC50 =7.6 µM and 8.1 µM respectively; Lamas et al, 1997, Eur J Neurosci).

      To clarify this limitation in the article, we have added the following sentence in the section Limitations and Conclusions. “We want to point out that linopirdine has been reported to affect other ionic currents besides M current (Neacsu and Babes, 2010; Lamas et al., 1997). Despite this limitation, the application of linopirdine to young sympathetic motor neurons led to depolarization and firing of action potentials.”

      C. The Methods section lists the source of XE991 used in the study, not linopirdine. Is there an error?

      Thank you for pointing out this. We have added information for both retigabine and linopirdine in the Methods section; both were missing.

      (8) Can the authors use a more scientific explanation of RTG action than "activating KCNQ channels?" For instance, RTG induces both a negative-shift in the voltage-dependance of activation and a voltage-independent increase in the open probability, both of which differing in detail between KCNQ2 and KCNQ3 subunits. The authors are free to use these exact words. Thus, the degree of "activation" is very dependent upon voltage at any voltages negative to the saturating voltages for channel activation.

      We have modified the text to reflect your suggestion. Thank you.

      (9) Methods: did the authors really use "poly-l-lysine-coated coverslips?" Almost all investigators use poly-D-lysine as a coating for mammalian tissue-culture cells and more substantial coatings such as poly-D-lysine + laminin or rat-tail collagen for peripheral neurons, to allow firm attachment to the coverslip.

      That is correct. We used poly-L-lysine-coated coverslips. Sympathetic motor neurons do not adhere to poly-D-Lysine.

      (10) As a suggestion, sampling M-type/KCNQ/Kv7 current at 2 kHz is not advised, as this is far faster than the gating kinetics of the channels. Were the signals filtered?

      Signals were not filtered. Currents were sampled at 2KHz. Our conditions are not far from what is reported by others. Some sample at 10KHz and even 50 KHz. Others do not report the sample frequency.

      Reviewer #2:

      Weaknesses:

      None, the revised version of the manuscript has addressed all my concerns.

      We are very appreciative and glad that our responses satisfied your previous concerns.

      Reviewer #3:

      The main weakness is that this study is a descriptive tabulation of changes in the electrophysiology of neurons in culture, and the effects shown are correlative rather than establishing causality.

      In the previous revision, Reviewer 3 wrote: “It is difficult to know from the data presented whether the changes in KCNQ channels are in fact directly responsible for the observed changes in membrane excitability.” And suggested the “use of blockers and activators to provide greater relevance.”

      Attending this recommendation, we performed experiments in Fig. 8. Young neurons exposed to linopirdine depolarize membrane potential and promote action potential firing. In contrast, the old neurons treated with retigabine repolarize membrane potential and stop firing action potentials. This new set of experiments suggests age-related electrophysiological changes in old neurons are associated with changes in M current. The main finding of our article.

      If Reviewer 3 refers to establishing causality between aging and a reduction in M current, I would like to emphasize that our laboratory is working toward a better understanding of the molecular mechanism of how M current is affected by aging; however, it will be part of a different article.  One of our attempts was to reverse aging with rapamycin, but the previous recommendation was to remove those experiments.

      … but the specifics of the effects and relevance to intact preparations are unclear.

      Additional experiments in slice cultures would provide greater significance on the potential relevance of the findings for intact preparations.

      I apologize for missing this point in the previous revision. The proposed experiments will require an upward microscope coupled to an electrophysiology rig. Unfortunately, I do not

      have the equipment to do these experiments.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Response to reviewer’s comments

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary: 

      The manuscript focuses on comparison of two PLP-dependent enzyme classes that perform amino acyl decarboxylations. The goal of the work is to understand the substrate specificity and factors that influence catalytic rate in an enzyme linked to theanine production in tea plants.

      Strengths: 

      The work includes x-ray crystal structures of modest resolution of the enzymes of interest. These structures provide the basis for design of mutagenesis experiments to test hypotheses about substrate specificity and the factors that control catalytic rate. These ideas are tested via mutagenesis and activity assays, in some cases both in vitro and in plants. 

      Weaknesses:

      Although improved in a revision, the manuscript could be more clear in explaining the contents of the x-ray structures and how the complexes studied relate to the reactant and product complexes. The manuscript could also be more concise, with a discussion section that is largely redundant with the results and lacking in providing scholarly context from the literature to help the reader understand how the current findings fit in with work to characterize other PLP-dependent enzymes or protein engineering efforts. Some of the figures lack sufficient clarity and description. Some of the claims about the health benefits of tea are not well supported by literature citations.

      Thank you for your insightful comments on our manuscript and your recognition of the strengths of our study. We understand your concerns about the weaknesses mentioned, and we have addressed them appropriately in the revised manuscript. We acknowledge that the discussion section needs to be improved for conciseness and context. We have revised this part by removing the redundant content. We also acknowledge your comments concerning the clarity and description of some figures. We have revisited these figures and revised them, ensuring they are clear and adequately described. Lastly, concerning the claims about the health benefits of tea, we understand your concern about the lack of supporting citations. We ensure to back such claims with valid literature or, if necessary, omit these statements.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Line 21: Alanine Decarboxylase should not be capitalized.

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Line 31: Grammatical error. Also not clear what "evolution analysis" means here. Revise to "Structural comparisons led us to..."

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Line 34: Revise to "Combining a double mutant of CsAlaDC"

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (4) Line 35: Change word order to "increased theanine production 672%"

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (5) Line 37: meaning unclear. Revise to "provides a route to more efficient biosynthesis of theanine."

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (6) Line 44: I'm not sure that the "health effects" of tea have been proven in placebo controlled studies. And the references provided (2-4 and 5) do not describe original research articles supporting these claims. I would suggest removing these statements from the introduction and at later points in the manuscript.

      Thank you for your thoughtful feedback and suggestions. Based on your suggestion, we have removed these statements: "The popularity of tea is determined by its favorable flavor and numerous health benefits (2-4). The flavor and health-beneficial effects of tea are conferred by the abundant secondary metabolites, including catechins, caffeine, theanine, volatiles, etc (5). " As for the subsequent statement: " It has also many health-promoting functions, including neuroprotective effects, enhancement of immune functions, and potential anti-obesity capabilities, among others. " the referenced literature cited can substantiate this conclusion.

      (7) Line 58: insert "the" between provided and basis

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (8) Line 100: Not clear what this phrase means, "As expected, CsSerDC was closer to AtSerDC" Please clarify - closer to what?

      We apologize for any confusion caused by the unclear phrasing. When referring to "CsSerDC was closer to AtSerDC," we intended to convey that CsSerDC exhibits a higher degree of sequence homology with AtSerDC than it does with the other enzymes evaluated in our investigation. However, a 1.29% difference between 86.21% and 84.92% in amino acid similarity is not statistically significant (Figure 1B and Supplementary table 1 in the original manuscript), we have deleted the relevant descriptions in the revised manuscript.

      (9) Line 112: "were constructed into" makes no sense. It would be better to say the genes for the proteins of interest were inserted into the overexpression plasmid.

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (10) Line 115: missing the word "the" between generated and recombinant

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (11) Line 121: catalyze not catalyzed

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (12) Lines 129 and 130: The reported Km values are really large - in the mM range. Do these values make sense in terms of the available concentrations of the substrates inside the cell?

      The content of alanine in tea plant roots ranges from 0.28 to 4.18 mg/g DW (Yu et al., 2021; Cheng et al., 2017). Correspondingly, the physiological concentration of alanine is 3.14 mM to 46.92 mM, in tea plant roots. The content of serine in plants ranges from 0.014 to 17.6 mg/g DW (Kumar et al., 2017). Correspondingly, the physiological concentration of serine is 0.13 mM to 167.48 mM in plants. Therefore, in this study, the Km values are within the range of available substrate concentrations inside the cell.

      Yu, Y. et al. (2021) Glutamine synthetases play a vital role in high accumulation of theanine in tender shoots of albino tea germplasm "Huabai 1". J. Agric. Food Chem. 69 (46),13904-13915.

      Cheng, S. et al. (2017) Studies on the biochemical formation pathway of the amino acid L-theanine in tea (Camellia sinensis) and other plants. J. Agric. Food Chem. 65 (33), 7210-7216.

      Kumar, V. et al. (2017) Differential distribution of amino acids in plants. Amino Acids. 49(5), 821-869.

      (13) Line 211: it is unclear what the phrase "as opposed to wild-type" means. Please clarify.

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript and valuable suggestions. We intend to communicate that the wild-type CsAlaDC and AtSerDC demonstrate decarboxylase activity, while the mutated proteins have experienced a loss of decarboxylation activity. We have already modified this concern in the revised version of the manuscript.

      (14) Line 222: residues not residue

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (15) Line 227 and Figure 4B: It is not clear what the different sequence logos mean in this part of the figure. The caption is too brief and not helpful. And the sentences describing this figure panel are also not sufficiently clear.

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript and valuable suggestions. We have provided a more detailed explanation of this section in the revised manuscript and added additional annotations in the figure caption to provide further clarity.

      (16) Lines 233 and 234: "in the substrate specificity" is awkwardly worded. I would revise to "in selective binding of the appropriate substrate."

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript and valuable suggestions. We have meticulously revised the description of this section.

      (17) Line 243: a word is missing in this sentence - but I can't figure out the intended meaning or what the missing word is. Rephrase to improve clarity.

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript and valuable suggestions. We have revised this sentence to: " These findings indicate the essential role of Phe106 in the selective binding of alanine for CsAlaDC. "

      (18) Line 255: The "expression system...was carried out" is not correct. I would say the expression system was used - but you probably also want to rearrange the sentences to more directly say what it was used for. Later, the word "the" is also missing.

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript and valuable suggestions. We have revised this sentence to: "To further verify that Phe106 of CsAlaDC and Tyr111 of AtSerDC were key amino acid residues determining its substrate recognition in planta, we employed the Nicotiana benthamiana transient expression system. "

      (19) Line 273: use "understand" instead of "elucidate" and instead of "we proposed a prediction test:" say "we designed a test of the prediction that..."

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have revised this sentence to: “In light of this observation, we postulated a hypothesis:”

      (20) Line 301: I don't think "effectuate" is a word. Replace with something else.

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have revised the sentence as: " The biosynthetic pathway of theanine in tea plants comprises two consecutive enzymatic steps: alanine decarboxylase facilitates the decarboxylation of alanine to generate EA, while theanine synthetase catalyzes the condensation reaction between EA and Glu to synthesize theanine. "

      (21) Line 307: replace "activity" with "ability"

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (22) Line 322: I didn't find the discussion very useful. Much of it is simply a recap of the results - which is not necessary. The structural comparisons are overly descriptive without providing appropriate rationale or topic sentence structure so that the reader understands why certain details are emphasized. I think the manuscript would be much stronger if this section were not included or integreted more concisely into the results section where appropriate.

      Thank you for your constructive comments. We understand your concerns about the discussion section of our manuscript. We acknowledge that the discussion section has redundancies with the result. In response to this, we have revised this section to eliminate unnecessary repetition of the results.

      (23) Line 369: "an amino acid devoid of the hydroxyl moiety present in Lys" - what does this mean? Lys does not have a hydroxyl functional group. Please correct so that the sentence makes sense.

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript. This sentence states that the amino acid occupying the corresponding position in CsAlaDC is Phe, which lacks one hydroxyl functional group as compared to Lys. We have made modifications to the sentence as follows: "In contrast, the equivalent position in CsAlaDC is occupied by Phe, an amino acid lacking the hydroxyl group. This substitution enhances the hydrophobic nature of the substrate-binding pocket. "

      (24) Line 370: "This structural nuance portends a predisposition for CsAlaDC to select the comparatively hydrophobic amino acid alanine as its suitable substrate." This sentence also makes no sense - please revise to use simpler language so the meaning is more clear.

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript and valuable suggestions. We have revised the sentence as follows: " Consequently, CsAlaDC demonstrates a unique predilection, selectively binding Ala (an amino acid with comparatively hydrophobic properties) as its preferred substrate."

      (25) Lines 376-384: This section makes several references to "catalytic rings." I have no idea what this term means? If the authors mean a loop structure in the enzyme - please use the term "loop"

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript and valuable suggestions. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (26) Line 396-397: The authors reference data that is not shown in the manuscript. Either show the data in the results section or do not mention.

      Thank you for your insightful comment regarding the unshown data referenced in the manuscript. We have included Supplementary figure 9 in the revised manuscript to display this data.

      (27) Line 445-446: what is "mutation technology" - if the authors mean site-directed mutagenesis - please use the simpler and more recognizable terminology.

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript and valuable suggestions. We have revised the sentence as follows: "Based on the findings of this study, site-directed mutagenesis can be employed to modify enzymes involved in theanine synthesis. This modification enhances the capacity of bacteria, yeast, model plants, and other organisms to synthesize theanine, thereby facilitating its application in industrial theanine production."

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In the manuscript titled "Structure and Evolution of Alanine/Serine Decarboxylases and the Engineering of Theanine Production," Wang et al. solved and compared the crystal structures of Alanine Decarboxylase (AlaDC) from Camellia sinensis and Serine Decarboxylase (SerDC) from Arabidopsis thaliana. Based on this structural information, the authors conducted both in vitro and in vivo functional studies to compare enzyme activities using site-directed mutagenesis and subsequent evolutionary analyses. This research has the potential to enhance our understanding of amino acid decarboxylase evolution and the biosynthetic pathway of the plant specialized metabolite theanine, as well as to further its potential applications in the tea industry.

      Thank you very much for taking the time to review this manuscript. We appreciate all your insightful comments.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The additional material added by the authors addresses some of the previously raised questions and enhances the manuscript's quality. However, certain critical issues we pointed out earlier remain unaddressed. Some of the new data also raises new questions. To provide readers with more comprehensive data, the authors should include additional quantitative data and convert the data presented in the reviewer's comments into supplemental figure format.

      Thank you for acknowledging the improvements in the revised manuscript and providing further valuable feedback. We understand your concern about the critical issues that have not been fully addressed and the new questions raised by some of the newly added data. We have strived to address these issues with additional analysis and clarification in our subsequent revision. Regarding your suggestion for more quantitative data and converting the data mentioned in the reviewer's comments into a supplemental figure format, we agree that this would provide a more comprehensive view of the results. We have reformatted the relevant data into supplemental figures to enhance the clarity and accessibility of information. We are grateful for the time and effort you have dedicated to improving our manuscript.

      * Page 5 & Figure 1B

      "As expected, CsSerDC was most closed to AtSerDC, which implies that they shared similar functions. However, CsAlaDC is relatively distant from CsSerDC."

      : In Figure 1B, CsSerDC and AtSerDC are in different clades, and this figure does not show that the two enzymes are closest. To provide another quantitative comparison, please provide a matrix table showing amino acid sequence similarities as a supplemental table. 

      Comment: I don't believe that a 1.29% difference between 86.21% and 84.92% in amino acid similarity is statistically significant. Although the authors have rephrased the original sentence, it's improbable that this small 1.29% difference can explain the observed distinction.

      Many thanks. We have carefully considered your comments. Indeed, the 1.29% difference in amino acid similarity cannot reflect the functional difference between the AlaDC and SerDC proteins. We have deleted the relevant descriptions in the revised manuscript.

      * Page 6, Figure 2, Page 23 (Methods)

      "The supernatants were purified with a Ni-Agarose resin column followed by size-exclusion chromatography."

      : What kind of SEC column did the authors use? Can the authors provide the SEC elution profile comparison results and size standard curve?

      Comment: The authors should include the SEC elution profiles as a supplemental figure or incorporate them as a panel in Figure 2. Furthermore, they should provide a description of the oligomeric state of each protein in this experiment. Additionally, there is a significant difference between CsSerDC (65.38 mL) and CsAlaDC (74.37 mL) elution volumes. Can this difference be explained structurally? In comparison to the standard curve of molecular weight provided by the authors, it appears that these proteins are at least homo-tetramers, which contradicts the description in the text. This should be re-evaluated and clarified.  

      Thank you very much for your careful reading of the manuscript and valuable suggestions. We have included the SEC elution profile in Supplemental figure 1A and added descriptions of the oligomeric states of proteins in the revised manuscript. CsSerDC was eluted at 65.38 mL, corresponding to a molecular weight of 292 kDa, which is five times the monomeric protein (54.7 kDa). However, due to the absence of CsSerDC crystal structure, it remains uncertain whether the protein forms a pentamer. AtSerDC was eluted at 72.25 mL, with a corresponding molecular weight of 155 kDa, which is 3.3 times the monomer (47.3 kDa). CsAlaDC was eluted at 74.37 mL, with a corresponding molecular weight of 127 kDa, which is 2.7 times the monomer (47.3 kDa). The elution profiles suggest that AtSerDC and CsAlaDC potentially exist in homotrimeric form. This observation stands in contradiction to our subsequent findings where the protein manifests in a dimeric structure. A plausible explanation could be the non-ideal spherical shape of the protein. Under such circumstances, the hydrodynamic radius of the protein could supersede its actual size, potentially leading to an overestimation of the molecular weight on the size-exclusion chromatography [ref].

      References:

      Burgess, R. R. (2018) A brief practical review of size exclusion chromatography: Rules of thumb, limitations, and troubleshooting. Protein Expression and Purification. 150, 81-85.

      Erdner J. M., et al. (2006) Size-Exclusion Chromatography Using Deuterated Mobile Phases. Journal of Chromatography A. 1129(1):41–46.

      * Page 6 & Page 24 (Methods)

      "The 100 μL reaction mixture, containing 20 mM substrate (Ala or Ser), 100 mM potassium phosphate, 0.1 mM PLP, and 0.025 mM purified enzyme, was prepared and incubated at standard conditions (45 {degree sign}C and pH 8.0 for CsAlaDC, 40 {degree sign}C and pH 8.0 for AtSerDC for 30 min)."

      (1) The enzymatic activities of CsAldDC and AtSerDC were measured at two different temperatures (45 and 40 {degree sign}C), but their activities were directly compared. Is there a reason for experimenting at different temperatures?

      (2) Enzyme activities were measured at temperatures above 40{degree sign}C, which is not a physiologically relevant temperature and may affect the stability or activity of the proteins. At the very least, the authors should provide temperature-dependent protein stability data (e.g., CD spectra analysis) or, if possible, temperature-dependent enzyme activities, to show that their experimental conditions are suitable for studying the activities of these enzymes.

      Comment: I appreciate the authors for including temperature-dependent enzyme activity data in their study. However, it remains puzzling that plant enzymes were tested at a physiologically irrelevant temperature of 40 and 45 degrees Celsius. Additionally, it may not be appropriate to directly compare enzyme activity measurements at different temperatures. Furthermore, the data at 45 degrees in panel A appears to be an outlier, which contrasts with the overall trend observed in the graph.

      We appreciate your point regarding the testing temperatures for plant enzymes. We fully appreciate the importance of conducting experiments under physiologically relevant conditions. But the intent behind operating at these elevated temperatures was to assess the thermal stability of the enzymes, which can be a valuable characteristic in certain applications, such as industrial production processes, and does not necessarily reflect their physiological conditions. Our findings indicate that CsAlaDC exhibits its peak activity at 45 °C. This result aligns with previously reported data in the literature [Bai, P. et al. (2021) figure 4e], thus bolstering our confidence in the reliability of our experimental outcomes.

      Author response image 1.

      Relative activity of CsAlaDC at different temperatures.

      * Pages 6-7 & Table 1

      (1) Use the correct notation for Km and Vmax. Also, the authors show kinetic parameters and use multiple units (e.g., mmol/L or mM for Km).

      (2) When comparing the catalytic efficiency of enzymes, kcat/Km (or Vmax/Km) is generally used. The authors present a comparison of catalytic activity from results to conclusion. A clarification of what results are being compared is needed.

      Comment: The authors are still comparing catalytic efficiency solely based on the Vmax values. As previously suggested, it would be advisable to calculate kcat/Km and employ it for comparing catalytic efficiencies. Furthermore, based on the data provided by the authors, I conducted a rough calculation of these catalytic efficiencies and did not observe a significant difference, which contrasts with the authors' statement, "These findings indicated that the catalytic efficiency of CsAlaDC is considerably lower than that of both CsSerDC and AtSerDC." This discrepancy requires clarification.  

      We want to express our sincere appreciation for your meticulous review and constructive suggestions. We understand the importance of accurately comparing catalytic efficiencies using Kcat/Km values, rather than solely relying on Vmax values. Following your suggestion, we recalculated Kcat/Km to reanalyze our results. The computed Kcat/Km for CsSerDC and AtSerDC are 152.7 s-1 M-1 and 184.6 s-1 M-1, respectively. For CsAlaDC, the calculated Kcat/Km is 55.7 s-1 M-1. Therefore, the catalytic efficiency of CsSerDC and AtSerDC is approximately three times that of CsAlaDC.  What we intended to convey was that the Vmax of CsAlaDC is lower than that of CsSerDC and AtSerDC.  Our description in the manuscript was not accurate, and we have addressed this in the revised version.

      * Pages 9 & 10

      "This result suggested this Tyr is required for the catalytic activity of CsAlaDC and AtSerDC."

      : The author's results are interesting, but it is recommended to perform the experiments in a specific order. First, experiments should determine whether mutagenesis affects the protein's stability (e.g., CD, as discussed earlier), and second, whether mutagenesis affects ligand binding (e.g., ITC, SPR, etc.), before describing how site-directed mutagenesis alters enzyme activity. In particular, the authors' hypothesis would be much more convincing if they could show that the ligand binding affinity is similar between WT and mutants.

      Comments: While it is appreciated that you have included CD and UV-vis absorption spectra data, it would be more beneficial to provide quantitative data to address the previously proposed binding affinity. I also recommend presenting the data mentioned in the reviewer's comments as a supplementary figure for better clarity and reference.  

      Thank you for your valuable feedback and suggestions. I agree that providing quantitative data would lend more support to our findings and better address the proposed binding affinity.

      It is generally acknowledged that proteins complexed with PLP exhibit a yellow hue, and the ligand PLP forms a Schiff base structure with the ε-amino group of a lysine residue in the protein, with maximum absorbance around 420 nm. However, during our protein purification process, we observed that the purified protein retained its yellow coloration, even when PLP wasn't introduced into the purification buffer. Subsequent absorbance measurements revealed that the protein exhibited absorbance within the aforementioned wavelength (420 nm) (the experimental results are shown in the following figures), implying an inherent presence of the PLP ligand within the protein. This could have resulted from binding with PLP during the protein's expression in E. coli. Consequently, due to this inseparability between the protein and the ligand, obtaining quantitative data through experimental means becomes unfeasible.

      Author response image 2.

      (A) Absorption Spectra of CsAlaDC (WT) and CsAlaDC (Y336F). (B) Absorption Spectra of AtSerDC (WT) and AtSerDC (Y341F).

      Regarding your suggestion about presenting the data mentioned in the reviewer's comments as a supplementary figure, we agree that it is an excellent idea. We have prepared supplementary figure 7 and supplementary figure 8 accordingly, ensuring that they present the required data.

      * Page 10

      "The results showed that 5 mM L-DTT reduced the relative activity of CsAlaDC and AtSerDC to 22.0% and 35.2%, respectively"

      : The authors primarily use relative activity to compare WT and mutants. Can the authors specify the exact experiments, units, and experimental conditions? Is it Vmax or catalytic efficiency? If so, under what specific experimental conditions?

      Response: "However, due to the unknown mechanism of DTT inhibition on protein activity, we have removed this part of the content in the revised manuscript."

      Comment: I believe this requires a more comprehensive explanation rather than simply removing it from the text.  

      Although we have observed that DTT is capable of inhibiting enzyme activity, at present, we are unable to offer a comprehensive explanation for the inhibitory effect of DTT on enzyme activity in terms of its structural and catalytic mechanisms. Further research is required to elucidate the mechanism of action of DTT. It is worth noting, however, that our study does not emphasize investigating the specific inhibitory mechanisms of DTT on enzyme activity. Furthermore, the existing findings do not provide an adequate explanation for the observed phenomenon, leading us to exclude this particular aspect from the content.

      * Pages 10-12

      : The identification of 'Phe106 in CsAlaDC' and 'Tyr111 in AtSerDC,' along with the subsequent mutagenesis and enzymatic activity assays, is intriguing. However, the current manuscript lacks an explanation and discussion of the underlying reasons for these results. As previously mentioned, it would be helpful to gain insights and analysis from WT-ligand and mutant-ligand binding studies (e.g., ITC, SPR, etc.). Furthermore, the authors' analysis would be more convincing with accompanying structural analysis, such as steric hindrance analysis.

      Comment: While it is appreciated that you have included UV-vis absorption spectra data, it would be more beneficial to provide quantitative data to address the previously proposed binding affinity. I also recommend presenting the data mentioned in the reviewer's comments as a supplementary figure for better clarity and reference.  

      Response: Thank you for your valuable feedback and suggestions. Given that the protein forms a complex with PLP during its expression in E. coli and cannot be dissociated from it, obtaining quantitative data via experimental protocols is rendered impracticable.

      Author response image 3.

      (A) Absorption Spectra of CsAlaDC (WT) and CsAlaDC (F106Y). (B) Absorption Spectra of AtSerDC (WT) and AtSerDC (Y111F).

      Mutant proteins and wild-type proteins exhibited absorption bands at 420 nm, suggesting the formation of a Schiff base between PLP and the active-site lysine residue.

      Regarding your suggestion about presenting the data mentioned in the reviewer's comments as a supplementary figure, we have prepared supplementary figure 7 and supplementary figure 8 accordingly, ensuring that they present the required data.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This paper investigates host and viral factors influencing transmission of alpha and delta SARS-CoV-2 variants in the Syrian hamster model and fundamentally increases knowledge regarding transmission of the virus via the aerosol route. The strength of evidence is solid and could be improved with a clearer presentation of the data.

      We thank the editors for their assessment. We are excited to present a revised version of the manuscript with improved data presentation and an improved discussion addressing the reviewer’s concerns.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In the submitted manuscript, Port et al. investigated the host and viral factors influencing the airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Alpha and Delta variants of concern (VOC) using a Syrian hamster model. The authors analyzed the viral load profiles of the animal respiratory tracts and air samples from cages by quantifying gRNA, sgRNA, and infectious virus titers. They also assessed the breathing patterns, exhaled aerosol aerodynamic profile, and size distribution of airborne particles after SARS-CoV-2 Alpha and Delta infections. The data showed that male sex was associated with increased viral replication and virus shedding in the air. The relationship between co-infection with VOCs and the exposure pattern/timeframe was also tested. This study appears to be an expansion of a previous report (Port et al., 2022, Nature Microbiology). The experimental designs were rigorous, and the data were solid. These results will contribute to the understanding of the roles of host and virus factors in the airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2 VOCs.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This manuscript by Port and colleagues describes rigorous experiments that provide a wealth of virologic, respiratory physiology, and particle aerodynamic data pertaining to aerosol transmission of SARS-CoV-2 between infected Syrian hamsters. The data is particularly significant because infection is compared between alpha and delta variants, and because viral load is assessed via numerous assays (gRNA, sgRNA, TCID) and in tissues as well as the ambient environment of the cage. The paper will be of interest to a broad range of scientists including infectious diseases physicians, virologists, immunologists and potentially epidemiologists. The strength of evidence is relatively high but limited by unclear presentation in certain parts of the paper.

      Important conclusions are that infectious virus is only detectable in air samples during a narrow window of time relative to tissue samples, that airway constriction increases dynamically over time during infection limiting production of fine aerosol droplets, that variants do not appear to exclude one another during simultaneous exposures and that exposures to virus via the aerosol route lead to lower viral loads relative to direct inoculation suggesting an exposure dose response relationship.

      While the paper is valuable, I found certain elements of the data presentation to be unclear and overly complex.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      We thank the reviewer for their comments and their attention to detail. We have taken the following steps to address their suggestions and concerns.

      However, the following concerns need to be issued.

      1. Summary seems to be too simple, and some results are not clearly described in the summary.

      We have edited the summary and hope to have addressed the concerns raised by providing more information. We think that the summary includes all relevant findings.

      “It remains poorly understood how SARS-CoV-2 infection influences the physiological host factors important for aerosol transmission. We assessed breathing pattern, exhaled droplets, and infectious virus after infection with Alpha and Delta variants of concern (VOC) in the Syrian hamster. Both VOCs displayed a confined window of detectable airborne virus (24-48 h), shorter than compared to oropharyngeal swabs. The loss of airborne shedding was linked to airway constriction resulting in a decrease of fine aerosols (1-10µm) produced, which are suspected to be the major driver of airborne transmission. Male sex was associated with increased viral replication and virus shedding in the air. Next, we compared the transmission efficiency of both variants and found no significant differences. Transmission efficiency varied mostly among donors, 0-100% (including a superspreading event), and aerosol transmission over multiple chain links was representative of natural heterogeneity of exposure dose and downstream viral kinetics. Co-infection with VOCs only occurred when both viruses were shed by the same donor during an increased exposure timeframe (24-48 h). This highlights that assessment of host and virus factors resulting in a differential exhaled particle profile is critical for understanding airborne transmission.”

      1. Aerosol transmission experiment should be described in Materials and Methods although it is cited as Reference 21#;

      We have modified Line 433:

      “Aerosol caging

      Aerosol cages as described by Port et al. [2] were used for transmission experiments and air sampling as indicated. The aerosol transmission system consisted of plastic hamster boxes (Lab Products) connected by a plastic tube. The boxes were modified to accept a 7.62 cm (3') plastic sanitary fitting (McMaster-Carr), which enabled the length between the boxes to be changed. Airflow was generated with a vacuum pump (Vacuubrand) attached to the box housing the naïve animals and was controlled with a float-type meter/valve (McMaster-Carr).”

      And Line 458: “During the first 5 days, hamsters were housed in modified aerosol cages (only one hamster box) hooked up to an air pump.”.

      Especially, one superspreading event of Alpha VOC (donor animal) was observed in iteration A (Figure 4). What causes that event, experiment system?

      Based on the observed variation in airborne shedding (of the cages from which this was directly measured), we believe that one plausible explanation for the super-spreading event was that the Alpha-infected donor shed considerably more virus during the exposure than other donors, and thus more readily infected the sentinels. That said, it is also conceivable that other factors such as hamster behavior (e.g., closeness to the cage outlet, sleeping) or variable sentinel susceptibility could affect the distribution of transmissions.

      1. Same reference is repeatedly listed as Refs 2 and 21#.

      Addressed. We thank the reviewer for their attention to detail. We have also removed reference 53, which was the same as 54.

      1. Two forms of described time (hour and h) are used in the manuscript. Single form should be chosen.

      This has been addressed.

      5) Virus designation located in line 371 and line 583 is inconsistent, and it needs to be revised.

      For consistency we have chosen this nomenclature for the viruses used: SARS-CoV-2 variant Alpha (B.1.1.7) (hCoV320 19/England/204820464/2020, EPI_ISL_683466) and variant Delta (B.1.617.2/) (hCoV-19/USA/KY-CDC-2-4242084/2021, EPI_ISL_1823618).

      1. In Figure 5F, what time were lung and nasal turbinate tissues collected after virus infection?

      This has been added to the legend. Day 5. Line 904.

      1. Line 562-563, what is the coating antigen (spike protein, generated in-house)? purified or recombinant protein?

      It is in-house purified recombinant protein. This has been added to the methods.

      1. Line 575 and line 578: 10,000x is not standard description, and it should be revised.

      Done.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      We thank the reviewer for their comments and suggestions to improve the manuscript, and hope we have addressed all concerns adequately.

      • Direct interpretation of the linear regression slope in Figure 3 is challenging. Is the most relevant parameter for transmission known? Intuitively, it would be the absolute number of small droplets at a given timepoint rather than the slope and it would be easier to interpret if the data were reported in this fashion.

      We decided to show a percentage of counts to normalize the data among animals, as we observed large inter-individual variation in counts. The reviewer is correct that it is most likely the number of particles that would be most relevant to transmission, though much (including the role of particle size) remains to be determined. We have added a sentence to the results which explains this in L157.

      Therefore, we decided in this first analysis to utilize the slope measurement and not raw counts. The focus was on the slopes and how particle profiles were changing post inoculation. Because we have focused on percentages, it seems not appropriate to present particle counts within each diameter range because the analysis, model, and results are based on these percentages of particles.

      Use of regression to compute slope is a useful measure because it uses data from all timepoints to estimate the regression line and, therefore, the % of particles on each day. We decided on these methods because efficiency is especially important in a study with a relatively small number of animals and slopes are also a good surrogate for how animal particle profiles are changing post-inoculation.

      To assist with the interpretation: 1) We removed Figure 3C and D and replaced Figure 3B with individual line plots for all conditions to visualize the slopes. The figure legend was corrected to reflect these changes.

      2) We replaced L169 onwards to read: (Figure 3B). Females had a steeper decline at an average rate of 2.2 per day after inoculation in the percent of 1-10 μm particles (and a steeper incline for <0.53 μm) when compared to males, while holding variant group constant. When we compared variant group while holding sex constant, we found that the Delta group had a steeper decline at an average rate of 5.6 per day in the percent of 1-10 μm particles (and a steeper incline for <0.53 μm); a similar trend, but not as steep, was observed for the Alpha group.

      The estimated difference in slopes for Delta vs. controls and Alpha vs. controls in the percent of <0.53 μm particles was 5.4 (two-sided adjusted p= 0.0001) and 2.4 (two-sided adjusted p = 0.0874), respectively. The estimated difference in slopes for percent of 1-10 μm particles was not as pronounced, but similar trends were observed for Delta and Alpha. Additionally, a linear mixed model was considered and produced virtually the same results as the simpler analysis described above; the corresponding linear mixed model estimates were the same and standard errors were similar.

      • Fig 4: what is "limit of quality" mentioned in the legend? Are these samples undetectable?

      We have clarified this in the legend: “3.3 = limit of detection for RNA (<10 copies/rxn)”. If samples have below 10 copy numbers per reaction, they are determined to be below the limit of detection. The limit of detection is 10 copy number/rxn. All samples below 10 copies/rxn are taken to be negative and set = 10 copies/rxn, which equals 3.3. Log10 copies/mL oral swab.

      • Fig 4C would be easier to process in graphical rather than tabular form. The meaning of the colors is unclear.

      We agree with the reviewer that this is difficult to interpret, but we are uncertain if the same data in a tabular format would be easier to digest. We realized that the legend was misplaced and have added this back into the figure, which we hope clarifies the colors and the limit of detection.

      • Figure 4D & E are uninterpretable. What do the pie charts represent?

      We have remodeled this part of the figure to a schematic representation of the majority variant which transmitted for each individual sentinel, and have added a table (Table S1) which summarizes the exact sequencing results for the oral swabs. The reviewer is correct that it was difficult to interpret the pie charts, considering most values are either 0 or close to 100%. We hope this addresses the question. The legend states:

      Author response image 1.

      Airborne attack rate of Alpha and Delta SARS-CoV-2 variants. Donor animals (N = 7) were inoculated with either the Alpha or Delta variant with 103 TCID50 via the intranasal route and paired together randomly (1:1 ratio) in 7 attack rate scenarios (A-G). To each pair of donors, one day after inoculation, 4-5 sentinels were exposed for a duration of 4 h (i.e., h 24-28 post inoculation) in an aerosol transmission set-up at 200 cm distance. A. Schematic figure of the transmission set-up. B. Day 1 sgRNA detected in oral swabs taken from each donor after exposure ended. Individuals are depicted. Wilcoxon test, N = 7. Grey = Alpha, teal = Delta inoculated donors. C. Respiratory shedding measured by viral load in oropharyngeal swabs; measured by sgRNA on day 2, 3, and 5 for each sentinel. Animals are grouped by scenario. Colors refer to legend below. 3.3 = limit of detection of RNA (<10 copies/rxn). D. Schematic representation of majority variant for each sentinel as assessed by percentage of Alpha and Delta detected in oropharyngeal swabs taken at day 2 and day 5 post exposure by deep sequencing. Grey = Alpha, teal = Delta, white = no transmission.

      • Fig S2G is uninterpretable. Please label and explain.

      We have now included an explanations of the figure S2F. The figure is a graphic representation of the neutralization data depicted in Figure S2F. The spacing between grid lines is 1 unit of antigenic distance, corresponding to a twofold dilution of serum in the neutralization assay. The resulting antigenic distance depicted between Alpha and Delta is roughly a 4-fold difference in neutralization between homologous (e.g., Alpha sera with the Alpha virus vs. heterologous, Alpha sera with the Delta virus).

      • I would consider emphasizing lines 220-225 in the summary and abstract. The important implication is that aerosol transmission is more representative of natural heterogeneity of exposure dose and downstream viral kinetics. This is an often-overlooked point.

      We agree with the reviewer and have added this in Line 43.

      • Fig 5: A cartoon similar to Fig 4A showing timing of sentinel exposure with number of animals would be helpful.

      We have added this as a new panel A for Figure 5. See the redrafted Figure 5 below.

      • For Fig 5E & F It would be helpful to use a statistical test to more formally assess whether proportion at exposure predicts proportion of variants in downstream sentinel infection.

      This has been added as a new Figure 5 panel H and I, which we hope addresses the reviewer’s comment.

      Author response image 2.

      Airborne competitiveness of Alpha and Delta SARS-CoV-2 variants. A. Schematic. Donor animals (N = 8) were inoculated with Alpha and Delta variant with 5 x 102 TCID50, respectively, via the intranasal route (1:1 ratio), and three groups of sentinels (Sentinels 1, 2, and 3) were exposed subsequently at a 16.5 cm distance. Animals were exposed at a 1:1 ratio; exposure occurred on day 1 (Donors  Sentinels 1) and day 2 (Sentinels  Sentinels). B. Respiratory shedding measured by viral load in oropharyngeal swabs; measured by gRNA, sgRNA, and infectious titers on days 2 and day 5 post exposure. Bar-chart depicting median, 96% CI and individuals, N = 8, ordinary two-way ANOVA followed by Šídák's multiple comparisons test. C/D/E. Corresponding gRNA, sgRNA, and infectious virus in lungs and nasal turbinates sampled five days post exposure. Bar-chart depicting median, 96% CI and individuals, N = 8, ordinary two-way ANOVA, followed by Šídák's multiple comparisons test. Dark orange = Donors, light orange = Sentinels 1, grey = Sentinels 2, dark grey = Sentinels 3, p-values indicated where significant. Dotted line = limit of quality. F. Percentage of Alpha and Delta detected in oropharyngeal swabs taken at days 2 and day 5 post exposure for each individual donor and sentinel, determined by deep sequencing. Pie-charts depict individual animals. Grey = Alpha, teal = Delta. G. Lung and nasal turbinate samples collected on day 5 post inoculation/exposure. H. Summary of data of variant composition, violin plots depicting median and quantiles for each chain link (left) and for each set of samples collected (right). Shading indicates majority of variant (grey = Alpha, teal = Delta). I. Correlation plot depicting Spearman r for each chain link (right, day 2 swab) and for each set of samples collected across all animals (left). Colors refer to legend on right. Abbreviations: TCID, Tissue Culture Infectious Dose.”

      We have additionally added to the results section: L284: “Combined a trend, while not significant, was observed for increased replication of Delta after the first transmission event, but not after the second, and in the oropharyngeal cavity (swabs) as opposed to lungs (Figure 5H) (Donors compared to Sentinels 1: p = 0.0559; Donors compared to Sentinels 2: p = >0.9999; Kruskal Wallis test, followed by Dunn’s test). Swabs taken at 2 DPI/DPE did significantly predict variant patterns in swabs on 5 DPI/DPE (Spearman’s r = 0.623, p = 0.00436) and virus competition in the lower respiratory tract (Spearman’s r = 0.60, p = 0.00848). Oral swab samples taken on day 5 strongly correlate with both upper (Spearman’s r = 0.816, p = 0.00001) and lower respiratory tract tissue samples (Spearman’s r = 0.832, p = 0.00002) taken on the same day (Figure 5I).”

      • Fig 1A: how are pfu/hour inferred? This is somewhat explained in the supplement, but I found the inclusion of model output as the first panel confusing and am still not 100% clear how this was done. Consider, explaining this in the body of the paper.

      We have added a more detailed explanation of the PFU/h inference to the main text: The motivation for the model was to link more readily measurable quantities such as RNA measured in oral swabs to the quantity of greatest interest for transmission (infectious virus per unit time in the air). To do this, we jointly infer the kinetics of shed airborne virus and parameters relating observable quantities (infected sentinels, plaques from purified air sample filters) to the actual longitudinal shedding. The inferential model uses mechanistic descriptions of deposition of infectious virus into the air, uptake from the air, and loss of infectious virus in the environment to extract estimates of the key kinetic parameters, as well as the resultant airborne shedding, for each animal.

      We have added this information to L106 in the results and hope this clarifies the rationale and execution of the model.

      More minor points:

      • Line 292: "poor proxy" seems too strong as peak levels of viral RNA correlate with positive airway cultures. It might be more accurate to say that high levels of viral RNA during early infection only somewhat correlate with positive airway cultures.

      We have rephrased this to clarify that while peak RNA viral loads are predictive of positive cultures, measuring RNA, especially early during infection and only once, may not be sufficient to infer the magnitude or time-dependence of infectious virus shedding into the air. See Line 308: “We found that swab viral load measurements are a valuable but imperfect proxy for the magnitude and timing of airborne shedding. Crucially, there is a period early in infection (around 24 h post-infection in inoculated hamsters) when oral swabs show high infectious virus titers, but air samples show low or undetectable levels of virus. Viral shedding should not be treated as a single quantity that rises and falls synchronously throughout the host; spatial models of infection may be required to identify the best correlates of airborne infectiousness [32]. Attempts to quantify an individual’s airborne infectiousness from swab measurements should thus be interpreted with caution, and these spatiotemporal factors should be considered carefully.”

      • Line 352: Re is dependent on time of an outbreak (population immunity) and cannot be specified for a given variant as it depends on multiple other variables

      We agree that the current phrasing here could be interpreted to suggest, incorrectly, that Re is an intrinsic property of a variant. We have deleted that language and reworded the section to emphasize that the critical question is heterogeneity in transmission, not mean reproduction number. Line 348: “Moreover, at the time of emergence of Delta, a large part of the human population was either previously exposed to and/or vaccinated against SARS-CoV-2; that underlying host immune landscape also affects the relative fitness of variants. Our naïve animal model does not capture the high prevalence of pre-existing immunity present in the human population and may therefore be less relevant for studying overall variant fitness in the current epidemiological context. Analyses of the cross-neutralization between Alpha and Delta suggest subtly different antigenic profiles [35], and Delta’s faster kinetics in humans may have also helped it cause more reinfections and “breakthrough” infections [36].

      Our two transmission experiments yielded different outcomes. When sentinel hamsters were sequentially exposed, first to Alpha and then to Delta, generally no dual infections—both variants detectable—were observed. In contrast, when we exposed hamsters simultaneously to one donor infected with Alpha and another infected with Delta, we were able to detect mixed-variant virus populations in sentinels in one of the cages (Cage F, see Appendix figures S1, S2). The fact that we saw both single-lineage and multi-lineage transmission events suggests that virus population bottlenecks at the point of transmission do indeed depend on exposure mode and duration, as well as donor host shedding. Notably, our analysis suggests that the Alpha-Delta co-infections observed in the Cage F sentinels could be due to that being the one cage in which both the Alpha and the Delta donor shed substantially over the course of the exposure (Appendix figures S2, S3). Mixed variant infections were not retained equally, and the relative variant frequencies differed between investigated compartments of the respiratory tract, suggesting roles for randomness or host-and-tissue specific differences in virus fitness.

      A combination of host, environmental and virus parameters, many of which vary through time, play a role in virus transmission. These include virus phenotype, shedding in air, individual variability and sex differences, changes in breathing patterns, and droplet size distributions. Alongside recognized social and environmental factors, these host and viral parameters might help explain why the epidemiology of SARS-CoV-2 exhibits classic features of over-dispersed transmission [37]. Namely, SARS-CoV-2 circulates continuously in the human population, but many transmission chains are self-limiting, while rarer superspreading events account for a substantial fraction of the virus’s total transmission. Heterogeneity in the respiratory viral loads is high and some infected humans release tens to thousands of SARS-CoV-2 virions/min [38, 39]. Our findings recapitulate this in an animal model and provide further insights into mechanisms underlying successful transmission events. Quantitative assessment of virus and host parameters responsible for the size, duration and infectivity of exhaled aerosols may be critical to advance our understanding of factors governing the efficiency and heterogeneity of transmission for SARS-CoV-2, and potentially other respiratory viruses. In turn, these insights may lay the foundation for interventions targeting individuals and settings with high risk of superspreading, to achieve efficient control of virus transmission [40].”

      • The limitation section should mention that this animal model does not capture the large prevalence of pre-existing immunity at present in the population and may therefore be less relevant in the current epidemiologic context.

      We agree and have added this more clearly, see response above.

      • Limitation: it is unclear if airway and droplet dynamics in the hamster model are representative of humans.

      We have added the following sentence: Line 331: “It remains to be determined how well airway and particle size distribution dynamics in Syrian hamsters model those in humans.”

      • The mathematical model is termed semi-mechanistic but I think this is not accurate as the model appears to have no mechanistic assumptions.

      We describe the model as semi-mechanistic because it uses mechanistic descriptions of the shedding and uptake process (as described above), incorporating factors including respiration rate and environmental loss, and makes the mechanistic assumption that measurable swab and airborne shedding all stem from a shared within-host infection process that produces exponential growth of virus up to a peak, followed by exponential decay. The model is only semi-mechanistic, however, as we do not attempt a full model of within-host viral replication and shedding (e.g. a target-cell limited virus kinetics model).

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      We thank the reviewers for their reading of the manuscript, and their suggestions. We have extensively addressed all these concerns in the text, and also included several new data and figures in the revised version of the manuscript. We hope that our response and the new experimental data fully address the concerns raised by the reviewers. We include a detailed, pointby-point response to each of the reviewer concerns, pointing to new data and specific changes made in the main manuscript.

      Note: Do note that these new data have resulted in a new figure-figure 6, a new supplementary figure -figure 2-figure supplement 2, and an increase in the number of panels in each figure, as well as supplementary figures.

      General response comments, highlighting a few aspects missed by the reviewers

      This manuscript has an enormous amount of data in it. This is understandable, since in part we are proposing an entirely new hypothesis, and way to think about mitochondrial repression, built around substantial circumstantial evidences from diverse literature sources. But to keep the narrative readable and the main idea understandable, a lot of information had to be only very briefly mentioned in the text, and is therefore included as supplemental information. Due to that, it may not always be apparent that this study has set several technical benchmarks. These experiments are extremely challenging to perform, took many iterations to standardize, and in themselves are a first in the field. Yeast cells have the highest known rate of glycolytic flux for any organism. Measuring this glycolytic rate using the formation of intermediates is hard, and all current estimates have been in vitro, and using a stop-flow type set up. In this study, we optimized and directly measured the glycolytic flux using isotope labelled glucose (13C-glucose), which has never been reported before in highly glycolytic cells such as yeast. This is due to the very rapid label saturation (within seconds) after 13C glucose pulse (as is now shown in the figure 2-figure supplement 1). For brevity, this is summarized in this study with sufficient information to reproduce the method, but we will put out a more detailed, associated methodology paper describing several challenges, infrastructure requirements, and resources to be able to carry out these types of experiments using yeast. An added highlight of these experiments with WT and Ubp3 deletion strains is the most direct till date experimental demonstration that glycolytic flux in yeast in high glucose follows zero-order kinetics, and depends entirely on the amounts of the glycolytic enzymes (presumably operating at maximal activity). This nicely complements the recent study by Grigatis 2022 (cited in the discussion), that suggests this possibility.

      Separately, this study required the estimation of total inorganic phosphates, as well as mitochondrial pools of phosphates. Till date, there are no studies that have estimated mitochondrial pools of phosphate (for a variety of reasons). In this study, we also experimentally determined the changes in mitochondrial phosphate pools. For this, we had to establish and standardize a rapid mitochondrial isolation method in yeast. Thus, this study provides the first quantitative estimates of mitochondrial Pi amounts (in the context of measured mitochondrial outputs), as shown now in Figure 4. This component on mitochondrial isolation in yeast to assess metabolites may also be explored in future as a methods paper.

      Specific responses to the Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The study by Vengayil et al. presented a role for Ubp3 for mediating inorganic phosphate (Pi) compartmentalization in cytosol and mitochondria, which regulates metabolic flux between cytosolic glycolysis and mitochondrial processes. Although the exact function of increased Pi in mitochondria is not investigated, findings have valuable implications for understanding the metabolic interplay between glycolysis and respiration under glucose-rich conditions. They showed that UBP3 KO cells regulated decreased glycolytic flux by reducing the key Pidependent-glycolytic enzyme abundances, consequently increasing Pi compartmentalization to mitochondria. Increased mitochondria Pi increases oxygen consumption and mitochondrial membrane potential, indicative of increased oxidative phosphorylation. In conclusion, the authors reported that the Pi utilization by cytosolic glycolytic enzymes is a key process for mitochondrial repression under glucose conditions.

      (1) However, the main claims are only partially supported by the low number of repeats and utilizing only one strain background, which decreased the overall rigor of the study. The fullpower yeast model could be utilized with testing findings in different backgrounds with increased biological repeats in many assays described in this study. In the yeast model, it has been well established that many phenotypes are genotype/strain dependent (Liti 2019, Gallone 2016, Boekout 2021, etc...). with some strains utilizing mitochondrial respiration even under high glucose conditions (Kaya 2021). It would be conclusive to test whether wild strains with increased respiration under high glucose conditions would also be characterized by increased mitochondrial Pi.

      “However, the main claims are only partially supported by the low number of repeats and utilizing only one strain background, which decreased the overall rigor of the study. The full-power yeast model could be utilized with testing findings in different backgrounds with increased biological repeats in many assays described in this study.”

      Thank you for the suggestion. We agree that a larger, universal statement cannot be made with data from a single strain, since yeasts do have substantial diversity. In this study, we had originally used a robust, prototrophic industrial strain (CEN.PK background). We have now utilized multiple, diverse strains of S. cerevisiae to test our findings. This includes strains from the common laboratory backgrounds – W303 and BY4742 – which have different auxotrophies, as well as another robust, highly flocculent strain from a prototrophic Σ1278 background. Using all these strains, we now comprehensively find that the role of altered Pi budgeting as a constraint for mitochondrial respiration, and the role of Ubp3 as a regulator of mitochondrial repression is very well conserved. In all tested strains of S. cerevisiae the loss of Ubp3 increases mitochondrial activity (as shown by increased mitochondrial membrane potential and increased Cox2 levels in Figure 6A, B). These data now expand the generality of our findings, and strengthen the manuscript. These results are included in the revised manuscript as a new figure- Figure 6 and the associated text.

      Some of the included data in the revised manuscript are shown below:

      Author response image 1.

      Mitochondrial activity and Cox2 levels in ubp3Δ in different genetic backgrounds

      We also used the W303 strain to assess Pi levels, and its role in increasing mitochondrial respiration. We find that the loss of Ubp3 in this genetic background also increases Pi levels and that the increased Pi is necessary for increasing mitochondrial respiration (Figure 6C, D).

      Author response image 2.

      Basal OCR in WT vs ubp3Δ (W303 strain background) in normal vs low Pi

      These experiments collectively have strengthened our findings on the critical role of intracellular Pi budgeting as a general constraint for mitochondrial respiration in high glucose.

      “It would be conclusive to test whether wild strains with increased respiration under high glucose conditions would also be characterized by increased mitochondrial Pi.”

      Addressed partially above. Right now the relative basal respiration in glucose across different strains is not well known. We measured mitotracker activity in high glucose in multiple WT strains of S. cerevisiae (W303, Σ1278, S288C and BY4742, compared to the CEN.PK strain). These strains all largely had similar mitotracker potential, except for a slight increase in mitochondrial membrane potential in Σ1278 strain, but not in other strains. We further characterized this using Cox2 protein levels as well as basal OCR, and found that these do not increase. These data is shown below, and is not included in the main text since it does not add any new component to the study.

      Author response image 3.

      Mitochondrial respiration in different WT strains

      We did find this suggestion very interesting though, and are exploring directions for future research based on this suggestion. Since we have now identified a role for intracellular Pi allocation in regulating the Crabtree effect, an interesting direction can be to understand the glucose dependent mitochondrial Pi transport in Crabtree negative yeast strains. We will have to bring in a range of new tools and strains for this, so these experiments are beyond the focus of this current study.

      We hope that these new experiments in different genetic backgrounds increases the breadth and generality of our findings, and stimulates new lines of thinking to address how important the role of Pi budgeting as a constraint for mitochondrial repression in high glucose might be.

      (2) It is not described whether the drop in glycolytic flux also affects TCA cycle flux. Are there any changes in the pyruvate level? If the TCA cycle is also impaired, what drives increased mitochondrial respiration?

      Thank you for pointing this out, and we agree this should be included. We have addressed these concerns in the revised version of the manuscript

      Since glucose derived pyruvate must enter the mitochondrial TCA cycle, one possibility is that a decrease in glycolytic rate could decrease the TCA flux. An alternate possibility is that the cells coincidently increase the pyruvate transport to mitochondria, to thereby maintain the TCA cycle flux comparable to that of WT cells. To test both these possibilities, we first measured the steady state levels of pyruvate and TCA cycle intermediates in WT vs ubp3Δ cells. We do not observe any significant change in the levels of pyruvate, or TCA cycle intermediates (except malate, which showed a significant decrease in ubp3Δ cells). This data is now included in the revised manuscript as Figure 2 – figure supplement 1D and figure supplement 2 A, along with associated text.

      Author response image 4.

      Pyruvate levels in WT vs ubp3Δ

      Author response image 5.

      Steady state TCA cycle intermediate levels

      Next, in order to address if the TCA cycle flux is impaired in ubp3Δ cells, we also measured the TCA cycle flux in WT vs ubp3Δ cells by pulsing the cells with 13C glucose and tracking 13C label incorporation from glucose into TCA cycle intermediates. This experiment first required substantial standardization, for the time of cell collection and quenching post 13C glucose addition, by measuring the kinetics of 13C incorporation into TCA cycle intermediates at different time points after 13C glucose addition. The standardization of this method is now included in the revised manuscript as Figure 2 – figure supplement 2 C, along with associated text, and is shown below for reference.

      Author response image 6.

      Kinetics of 13C labelling in TCA cycle intermediates

      Actual TCA cycle flux results: For measuring the TCA cycle flux, cells were treated with 1% 13C glucose, quenched and samples were collected at 7 mins post glucose addition which is in the linear range of 13C label incorporation (Figure 2- Figure 2 – figure supplement 2 C).

      Result: We did not observe any significant changes in the relative 13C label incorporation in TCA cycle intermediates. This data is included in the revised manuscript as Figure 2 – figure supplement 2 D, along with associated text, and is below for your reference.

      Author response image 7.

      TCA cycle flux

      What these data show is that the TCA cycle flux itself is not altered in ubp3Δ. A likely interpretation of this data is that this is due to the increase in the pyruvate transport to mitochondria in ubp3Δ cells, as indicated by the ~10-fold increase in Mpc3 (mitochondrial pyruvate transporter) protein levels (shown in Figure 5-figure supplement 5H), allowing the net same amount of pyruvate into the mitochondria. This increased mitochondrial pyruvate transport could support maintaining the TCA flux in ubp3Δ cells, and supporting the increased respiration. Putting a hierarchy together, the increased respiration in ubp3Δ cells could therefore be primarily due to increased Pi transport, followed by a consequent increase in ETC proteins. We leave it to the readers of this study to make this conclusion.

      We hope that we have addressed all concerns that the reviewer has with respect to TCA cycle flux in ubp3Δ cells.

      (3) In addition, some of the important literature was also missed in citation and discussion. For example, in a recent study (Ouyang et al., 2022), it was reported that phosphate starvation increases mitochondrial membrane potential independent of respiration in yeast and mammalian cells, and some of the conflicting results were presented in this study.

      We are very aware of the recent study by Ouyang et al, which reports that Pi starvation increases mitochondrial membrane potential independent of respiration. However, this study is distinct from the context of our case due to the reasons listed below.

      (a) The reviewer may have misinterpreted our low Pi condition as Pi starvation. There is no Pi ‘starvation’ in this study. Here, we cultured ubp3Δ and tdh2Δtdh3Δ cells in a low Pi medium with 1 mM Pi concentration in order to bring down the intracellular free Pi to that of WT levels. These cells are therefore not Pi-starved, but have been manipulated to have the same intracellular Pi levels as that of WT cells, as shown in Figure 4-figure supplement 1D. The Pi concentration in the medium is still in the millimolar range, and the cells are grown in this medium for a short time (~4 hrs) till they reach OD600 ~ 0.8. This is entirely different from the conditions used in Ouyang et al., 2022, where the cells were grown in a Pi-starvation condition with 1-100 micromolar Pi in the medium for a time duration of 6-8 hrs. Since cells respond differentially to changes in Pi concentrations over time (Vardi et al., 2014), the response to low Pi vs Pi starvation will be completely different.

      (b) In our study, mitochondrial membrane potential is used as only one of the readouts for mitochondrial activity. Our estimations of mitochondrial respiration are established by including other measurements such as Cox2 protein levels (as an indicator of the ETC) and basal OCR measurements (measuring respiration), all of which provide distinct information. The mitochondrial membrane potential can be regulated independent of mitochondrial respiration state (Liu et al., 2021), using membrane potential alone as a readout to estimate mitochondrial respiration can therefore be limiting in the information it provides. As indicated earlier, mitochondrial membrane potential can change, independent of mitochondrial respiration (Ouyang et al., 2022) and ATP synthesis (Liu et al., 2021). Since the focus of our study is mitochondrial respiration, and not just the change in membrane potential, making conclusions based on potential alone are ambiguous. Most studies in the field have in fact not used the comprehensive array of distinct estimates that we use in this study, and we believe the standards set in this study should become a norm for the field.

      (c) The only mutant that is similar to the Ouyang et al study is the Mir1 deletion mutant, which results in acute Pi starvation in mitochondria. In this strain, we find an increase in mitochondrial membrane potential. The data is not included in the manuscript but is shown below.

      Author response image 8.

      Mitochondrial potential in WT vs mir1Δ

      As clear from this data, mitochondrial membrane potential is significantly high in mir1Δ cells. However, the basal OCR and Cox2 protein levels clearly show decreased mitochondrial respiration which is expected in this mutant (Figure 5 A,B). This in fact highlights the limitations of solely relying on mitochondrial membrane potential measurements to draw conclusions, as doing so will lead to a misinterpretation of the actual mitochondrial activity in these cells. We do not wish to highlight limitations in other studies, but hope we make our point clear.

      (4) An additional experiment with strains lacking mitochondrial DNA under phosphate-rich and restricted conditions would further strengthen the result.

      Strains lacking mitochondrial DNA (Rho0 cells) cannot express the mitochondrially encoded ETC subunit proteins. These strains are therefore incapable of performing mitochondrial respiration. Since Rho0 cells are known to utilize alternate mechanisms to maintain their mitochondrial membrane potential (Liu et al., 2021), using mitotracker fluorescence as a readout of mitochondrial respiration in these strains under different Pi conditions is inconclusive and misleading due to the reasons mentioned in point number 3(b and c). However, since this was a concern raised by the reviewer, we now measured basal OCR in WT and Rho0 strains with Ubp3 deletion under normal vs low Pi medium. As expected, Rho0 cells show extremely low basal OCR values, an entire order of magnitude lower than WT cells. At these very low (barely detectable) levels the deletion of Ubp3 or change in Pi concentration in the medium does not change basal OCR, since these strains are not capable of respiration. We have included this data as Figure 4-figure supplement 1G.

      Author response image 9.

      Basal OCR in Rho0 cells

      (5) Western blot control panels should include entire membrane exposure, and non-cut western blots should be submitted as supplementary.

      The non-cut western blot images and the loading controls are now included in the revised manuscript as a supplementary file 2.

      (6) In Figure 4, it is shown that Pi addition decreases basal OCR to the WT level. However, the Cox2 level remains significantly higher. This data is confusing as to whether mitochondrial Pi directly regulates respiration or not.

      As described in the previous point, the Cox2 levels and the OCR provide distinct pieces of information. In figure 4, we show that culturing ubp3Δ in low Pi significantly decreases both Cox2 protein levels and basal OCR. Since Cox2 protein levels and basal OCR are different readouts for mitochondrial activity, there could be differences in the extent by which Pi availability controls each of these factors. Basal OCR is a direct readout for mitochondrial respiration, and is regulated by multiple factors including ETC protein levels, rate of ATP synthesis, rate of Pi transport etc. In figure 4, we find that culturing ubp3Δ in low Pi decreases basal OCR to WT level. This strongly suggests that high Pi levels are necessary to increase basal OCR in ubp3Δ.

      (7) Representative images of Ubx3 KO and wild-type strains stained with CMXRos are missing.

      Thank you for noticing this. This data is now included in the revised manuscript as Figure 1figure supplement 1C.

      Author response image 10.

      (8) Overall, mitochondrial copy number and mtDNA copy number should be analyzed in WT and Ubo3 KO cells as well as Pi-treated and non-treated cells, and basal OCR data should be normalized accordingly. The reported normalization against OD is not appropriate.

      This is a valid concern raised by the reviewer, and something we had extensively considered during the study. To normalize the total mitochondrial amounts in each strain, we always measure the protein levels of the mitochondrial outer membrane protein Tom70. While we had described this in the methods, it may not have been obvious in the text. But this information is included in Figure 1-figure supplement 1G. We did not observe any significant change in Tom70 levels, suggesting that the total mitochondrial amount does not change in ubp3Δ, and we have noted this in the manuscript (results section relevant to Figure 1). As an additional control, to directly measure the mitochondrial amount in these conditions, we have now measured the mitochondrial volume in ubp3Δ cells and WT cells treated with Pi. For this, we used a strain which encodes mitochondria targeted with mNeon green protein (described in Dua et al., JCB, 2023), and which can therefore independently assess total mitochondrial amount. We do not observe any changes in mitochondrial volume or amounts in ubp3Δ cells or WT+Pi, compared to that of WT cells. Therefore, the change in mitochondrial respiration in Ubp3 deletion and Pi addition are not due to changes in total amounts of mitochondria in these conditions. Given all these, the normalization of basal OCR using total cell number is therefore the most appropriate way for normalization. This is also conventionally used for basal OCR normalization in multiple studies.

      We have now included these additional data on mitochondrial volumes and amounts in the revised manuscript as Figure1-figure supplement 1F and Figure5-figure supplement 1D, and associated text, and is shown below.

      Author response image 11.

      Mitochondrial volume in WT vs ubp3Δ cells

      Author response image 12.

      Mitochondrial volume in WT and WT+Pi

      These data collectively address the reviewer’s concerns regarding changes in mitochondrial amounts in all the conditions and strains used in this study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Cells cultured in high glucose tend to repress mitochondrial biogenesis and activity, a prevailing phenotype type called Crabree effect that is observed in different cell types and cancer. Many signaling pathways have been put forward to explain this effect. Vengayil et al proposed a new mechanism involved in Ubp3/Ubp10 and phosphate that controls the glucose repression of mitochondria. The central hypothesis is that ∆ubp3 shifts the glycolysis to trehalose synthesis, therefore leading to the increase of Pi availability in the cytosol, then mitochondria receive more Pi, and therefore the glucose repression is reduced.

      Strengths:

      The strength is that the authors used an array of different assays to test their hypothesis. Most assays were well-designed and controlled.

      Weaknesses:

      I think the main conclusions are not strongly supported by the current dataset.

      (1) Although the authors discovered ∆ubp3 cells have higher Pi and mitochondrial activity than WT in high glucose, it is not known if WT cultured in different glucose concentration also change Pi that correlate with the mitochondrial activity. The focus of the research on ∆ubp3 is somewhat artificial because ∆ubp3 not only affects glycolysis and mitochondria, but many other cellular pathways are also changed. There is no idea whether culturing cells in low glucose, which derepress the mitochondrial activity, involves Ubp3 or not. Similarly, the shift of glycolysis to trehalose synthesis is also not relevant to the WT cells cultured in a low-glucose situation. “The focus of the research on ∆ubp3 is somewhat artificial because ∆ubp3 not only affects glycolysis and mitochondria, but many other cellular pathways are also changed. There is no idea whether culturing cells in low glucose, which de-repress the mitochondrial activity, involves Ubp3 or not.”

      We would like to clarify that the focus of this research is not on Ubp3, or to address mechanistic aspects of how Ubp3 regulates mitochondrial activity, or to identify the targets of Ubp3. That would be an entirely distinct study, with a very different approach.

      In this study, while carrying out a screen, we serendipitously found that ubp3Δ cells showed an increase in mitochondrial activity in high glucose. Subsequently, we used this observation, bolstered by diverse orthogonal approaches, to identify a general, systems-level principle that governs mitochondrial repression in high glucose. Through this, we identify a role of phosphate budgeting as a controller of mitochondrial repression in high glucose. In this study, our entire focus has been to use orthogonal approaches, as well as parsimonious interpretations, to establish this new hypothesis as a possibility. We hope this idea, supported by these data, will now enable researchers to pursue other experiments to establish the generality of this phenomenon.

      We have not focused our effort in identifying the role of Ubp3, or its regulation upon changes in glucose concentration in this context. That is a very specific, and separate effort, and misses the general point we address here. It is entirely possible that Ubp3 might also regulate mitochondrial activity by additional mechanisms other than mitochondrial Pi availability (such as via the reduction of key glycolytic enzymes at nodes of glycolysis, resulting in reduced glycolytic flux and rerouted glucose metabolism). Had the goal been to identify Ubp3 substrates, it is very likely that we would not have found the role of Pi homeostasis in controlling mitochondrial respiration. This is particularly because the loss of Ubp3 does not result in an acute disruption of glycolysis, unlike say a glycolytic enzyme mutant, which would have resulted in severe effects on growth and overall metabolic state. This would have made it difficult to dissect out finer details of metabolic principles that regulate mitochondrial respiration.

      In order to further corroborate our findings, we used the glycolysis defective mutant tdh2Δtdh3Δ cells, where we find a similar change in Pi balance. This complements the key observations made using ubp3Δ cells. Distinctly, we utilized the glycolytic inhibitor 2DG to independently assess the role of mitochondrial Pi transport in regulating respiration. Together, in this study we do not just relying on genetic mutants, but combine the Ubp3 deletion strain with a reduced GAPDH activity strain, and pharmacologic inhibition of glycolysis. Distinctly, we find that mitochondrial Pi transporter levels are repressed under high glucose (Figure 5C, Figure 5-figure supplement 1B). Further, we find that mitochondrial Pi transport is important in increasing mitochondrial respiration upon shift to low glucose and glycolytic inhibition by 2-DG. Therefore, we collectively unravel a more systems level principle that regulates glucose mediated mitochondrial repression, as opposed to a mechanistic study of Ubp3 targets.

      Of course, given the conservation of Ubp3, we are very excited to pursue a mechanistic study of Ubp3 targets in future. This is a general challenge for deubiquitinase enzymes, and till date there are very few bona fide substrates known for any deubiquitinase enzyme, from any cellular system (due to challenges in the field that we discuss separately, and have included in the discussion section of this text).

      “Similarly, the shift of glycolysis to trehalose synthesis is also not relevant to the WT cells cultured in a low-glucose situation”

      The reviewer is correct in pointing out that in low-glucose, the shift to trehalose synthesis might not be as relevant. We observe that the glycolysis defective mutant tdh2Δtdh3Δ cells does not show an increase in trehalose synthesis (Figure 3-figure supplement 1E). However, in this context, the decrease in the rate of GAPDH catalysed reaction alone appears to be sufficient to increase the Pi levels (Figure 3F) even without an increase in trehalose. Therefore, there might be differences in the relative contributions of these two arms towards Pi balance, based on whether it is low glucose in the environment, or a mutant such as ubp3 that modulates glycolytic flux. In ubp3Δ cells, the combination of low rate of GAPDH catalyzed reaction and high trehalose will happen (based on how glycolytic flux is modulated), vs only the low rate of GAPDH catalyzed reaction in tdh2Δtdh3Δ cells. As an end point the increase in Pi happens in both cases, but with slightly differing outcomes. It is also to be noted that in terms of free Pi sources a low-glucose condition (with low glycolytic rate) is very different from a no-glucose, respiratory condition (where cells perform very high gluconeogenesis). In high respiration conditions such as ethanol, cells switch to high gluconeogenesis, where there is a huge increase trehalose synthesis as a default (eg see Varahan et al 2019). In this condition, trehalose synthesis could be a major source for Pi (eg see Gupta 2021), and could support the increased mitochondrial respiration. In an ethanol medium, the directionality of GAPDH reaction is reversed. Therefore, this reaction will also now become an added source of Pi, instead of a consumer of Pi (see illustration in Figure 3G). Therefore, a reasonable interpretation is that a combination of increased trehalose and increased 1,3 BPG to G3P conversion can be a major Pi source to increasing mitochondrial respiration in a non-glucose, respiratory medium.

      “it is not known if WT cultured in different glucose concentration also change Pi that correlate with the mitochondrial activity”

      This is valid point raised by the reviewer. We have already found that the protein levels of mitochondrial Pi transporter is increased in a non-glucose respiratory (ethanol) medium and a low (0.1%) glucose medium (see Figure 5C, Figure5-figure supplement 1B). In addition, we have tried measuring mitochondrial Pi levels in cells grown in a high glucose medium vs a respiratory, ethanol medium. The results are shown below for the reviewer’s reference. Reviewer response image 3 – Mitochondrial Pi levels in ethanol vs glucose

      Author response image 13.

      We observe a clear trend where mitochondrial Pi levels are high in cells grown in ethanol medium compared to that of cells grown in high glucose. However, the estimation of Pi, and normalising the Pi levels in isolated mitochondria is extremely difficult in this condition (note that this has never been done before). This is likely due to a rapid rate of conversion of ADP and Pi to ATP (in ethanol) which increases the variation in the estimation of steady state Pi levels, and the high amounts of mitochondria in ethanol grown cells. Since the date shows high variation, we have not included this data in the manuscript, but we are happy to include it here in the response.

      Indeed, this study opens up the exciting question of addressing how intracellular Pi allocation is regulated in different conditions of glucose. This can be further extended to Crabtree negative strains such as K. lactis which do not show mitochondrial repression in high glucose. All of these are rich future research programs.

      (2) The central hypothesis that Pi is the key constraint behind the glucose repression of mitochondrial biogenesis/activity is supported by the data that limiting Pi will suppress mitochondrial activity increase in these conditions (e.g., ∆ubp3). However, increasing the Pi supply failed to increase mitochondrial activity. The explanation put forward by the authors is that increased Pi supply will increase glycolysis activity, and somehow even reduce the mitochondrial Pi. I cannot understand why only the increased Pi supply in ∆ubp3, but not the increased Pi by medium supplement, can increase mitochondrial activity. The authors said "...that ubp3Δ do not increase mitochondrial Pi by merely increasing the Pi transporters, but rather by increasing available Pi pools". They showed that ∆ubp3 mitochondria had higher Pi but WT cells with medium Pi supplement showed lower Pi, it is hard to understand why the same Pi increase in the cytosol had a different outcome in mitochondrial Pi. Later on, they showed that the isolated mito exposed to higher Pi showed increased activity, so why can't increased Pi in intact cells increase mito activity? Moreover, they first showed that ∆ubp3 had a Mir1 increase in Fig3A, then showed no changes in FigS4G. It is very confusing.

      “I cannot understand why only the increased Pi supply in ∆ubp3, but not the increased Pi by medium supplement, can increase mitochondrial activity.”

      This is an interesting point, that requires a nuanced explanation, which we try to provide below.

      For mitochondrial respiration to increase in the presence of high Pi, the cytosolic Pi has to be transported to the mitochondria sufficiently. In ubp3Δ the increased free Pi (as a consequence of rewired glycolysis) is transported to the mitochondria (Figure 4). This increased mitochondrial Pi can therefore increase mitochondrial respiration in ubp3Δ.

      In case of WT+Pi, the externally supplemented Pi cannot further enter mitochondria (as shown in Figure 5-Figure supplement 1C) and is most likely restricted to the cytosol. Because of this inability of the Pi to access mitochondria, the mitochondrial respiration does not increase in WT+Pi (Figure 5-Figure supplement 1E).

      The likely reason for this difference in mitochondrial Pi transport in ubp3Δ vs WT+Pi is the relative difference in their glycolytic rate. The glycolytic rate is inherently decreased in ubp3Δ, but not in WT+Pi. To dissect this possibility of glycolytic rate itself contributing to the Pi availability in the mitochondria, we inhibited glycolysis in WT cells (using 2DG), and then supplemented Pi. Compared to cells in the same glucose condition (with 2DG, but without supplementing excess Pi), now the WT+Pi (+2DG) has higher mitochondrial respiration (Figure 5-Figure supplement 1F). This suggests that a combination of low glycolysis and high Pi is required for increasing mitochondrial respiration (as elaborated in the discussion section of the manuscript).

      An obvious question that arises out of this observation is how does the change in glycolytic rate regulate mitochondrial Pi transport. One consequence of altering the glycolytic rate is a change in cytosolic pH. This itself will bear on the extent of Pi transport into mitochondria, as discussed in detail below.

      In mitochondria, Pi is co-transported along with protons. Therefore, changes in cytosolic pH (which changes the proton gradient) can control the mitochondrial Pi transport (Hamel et al., 2004). Glycolytic rate is a major factor that controls cytosolic pH. The cytosolic pH in highly glycolytic cells is ~7, and decreasing glycolysis results in cytosolic acidification (Orij et al., 2011). Therefore, under conditions of decreased glycolysis (such as loss of Ubp3), cytosolic pH becomes acidic. Since mitochondrial Pi transport is dependent on the proton gradient, a low cytosolic pH would favour mitochondrial Pi transport. Therefore, under conditions of decreased glycolysis (2DG treatment, or loss of Ubp3), where cytosolic pH would be acidic, increasing cytosolic Pi might indirectly increase mitochondria Pi transport, thereby leading to increased respiration.

      To explain this and integrate all these points, we have extended a discussion section in this manuscript. We include this section below:

      “Supplementing Pi under conditions of low glycolysis (where mitochondrial Pi transport is enhanced), as well as directly supplementing Pi to isolated mitochondria, increases respiration (Figure 5, Figure 5-figure supplement 1). Therefore, in order to derepress mitochondria, a combination of increased Pi along with decreased glycolysis is required. An additional systems-level phenomenon that might regulate Pi transport to the mitochondria is the decrease in cytosolic pH upon decreased glycolysis (60, 61). The cytosolic pH in highly glycolytic cells is ~7, and decreasing glycolysis results in cytosolic acidification (60, 61). Therefore, under conditions of decreased glycolysis (2DG treatment, deletion of Ubp3, and decreased GAPDH activity), cytosolic pH becomes acidic. Since mitochondrial Pi transport itself is dependent on the proton gradient, a low cytosolic pH would favour mitochondrial Pi transport (62). Therefore, under conditions of decreased glycolysis (2DG treatment, or loss of Ubp3, or decreased GAPDH activity), where cytosolic pH would be acidic, increasing cytosolic Pi might indirectly increase mitochondria Pi transport, thereby leading to increased respiration. Alternately, increasing mitochondrial Pi transporter amounts can achieve the same result, as seen by overexpressing Mir1 (Figure 5).”

      This possibility of changes in cytosolic pH regulating mitochondrial Pi transport and thereby respiration is a really interesting future research question, and an idea that has not yet been explored till date. This can stimulate new lines of thinking towards finding conserved biochemical principles that control mitochondrial repression in high glucose.

      “Moreover, they first showed that ∆ubp3 had a Mir1 increase in Fig3A, then showed no changes in FigS4G. It is very confusing”

      increase in Mir1 in ubp3Δ shown in figure 3A comes from the analysis of the proteomics dataset from a previous study (Isasa et al., 2015). Subsequently, we more systematically experimentally assessed Mir1 levels directly, and did not observe an increase in Mir1 (Figure 4figure supplement 1H in revised manuscript). It is entirely possible that in a large-scale study (as in Isasa 2015), some specific proteomic targets might not fully reproduce when tested very specifically (as is described in Handler et al., 2018 and Mehta et al., 2022). We do clearly indicate this in the text, but given the density of information in this study, it is understandable that this point was missed by the reviewer.

      (3) Given that there is no degradation difference for these glycolytic enzymes in ∆ubp3, and the authors found transcriptional level changes, suggests an alternative possibility where ∆ubp3 may signal through unknown mechanisms to parallelly regulate both mitochondrial biogenesis and glycolytic enzyme expression. The increase of trehalose synthesis usually happens in cells under proteostasis stress, so it is important to rule out whether ∆ubp3 signals these metabolic changes via proteostasis dysregulation. This echoes my first point that it is unknown whether wild-type cells use a similar mechanism as ∆ubp3 cells to regulate the glucose repression of mitochondria.

      We appreciate this point raised by the reviewer, but this again requires some clarification (as made earlier). The goal of this study was to identify systems-level principles that explain mitochondrial repression in high glucose. Although we started by performing a screen to identify proteostatic regulators of mitochondrial activity in high glucose, and identified Ubp3 as a mediator of mitochondrial activity, our approach was to use ubp3Δ cells as a model to understand the metabolic principles that regulate mitochondrial repression. This has been reiterated repeatedly in the manuscript – for example lines 123-124 “We therefore decided to use ubp3Δ cells to start delineating requirements for glucose-mediated mitochondrial repression.” and again in the discussion section – lines 442-460, where we discuss some unique advantages of using ubp3Δ cells to understand a general basis of mitochondrial regulation. To test this hypothesis, we also used orthogonal approaches, as well as other mutants and conditions with defective glycolysis, such as tdh2Δtdh3Δ cells and 2DG treatments. Only with these multiple converging evidences do we infer that there might be a role of the change in Pi balance (due to changes in glycolytic rate) in regulating mitochondrial activity.

      We certainly agree that there is great value in identifying the mechanistic details of how Ubp3 regulates mitochondria. But this requires very distinct approaches not pursued in this study. This is not the question that we are addressing in this story. Separately, identifying targets of DUBs is one of the exceptional challenges in biology, since there are currently no straightforward chemicalbiology approaches to do so for this class of proteins. Unlike kinase/phosphatase systems, or even ubiquitin ligases, substrate trapping mutants etc have proven to be abject failures in identifying direct targets of DUBs. A quantitative proteomics study might suggest some proteins/cellular processes regulated by Ubp3. This has been attempted for several DUBs, but rarely have any direct substrates of DUBs every been identified, in any system. A high quality quantitative, descriptive proteome dataset of ubp3Δ cells is already available from a previous study (Isasa et al., 2015), which we cite extensively in this manuscript, and indeed was invaluable for this study. We cannot improve the outstanding quality dataset already available. Interestingly, the findings of this study actually help substantiate our idea of an increased mitochondrial activity and change in Pi homeostasis in ubp3Δ cells. The Isasa et al dataset finds proteins involved in mitochondrial respiration that are high in ubp3Δ cells, and the glycolytic enzymes and PHO regulon proteins are reduced. In our study, using these data references, we were able to conceptually piece together how changes in glycolytic flux can alter Pi balance.

      Apart from identifying changes in protein levels, a separate challenge in making sense of this quantitative proteomics data is the difficulty in pinpointing any target of Ubp3 that specifically regulates these processes. A single DUB can have multiple substrates, and this could regulate the cellular metabolic state in a combinatorial manner. This is the essence of all signaling regulators in how they function, and it is therefore important to understand what their systems-level regulation of cell states are (separate from their specific individual substrates). Therefore, identifying the specific target of Ubp3 responsible for this metabolic rewiring can be very challenging. These experiments are well beyond the scope or interest of the current manuscript.

      If we had pursued that road in this study, we would not have made any general findings related to Pi balance, nor would this more general hypothesis have emerged.

      (4) Other major concerns:

      (a) The authors selectively showed a few proteins in their manuscript to support their conclusion. For example, only Cox2 and Tom70 were used to illustrate mitochondrial biogenesis difference in line 97. Later on, they re-analyzed the previous MS dataset from Isasa et al 2015 and showed a few proteins in Fig3A to support their conclusion that ∆ubp3 increases mitochondrial OXPHOS proteins. However, I checked that MS dataset myself and saw that many key OXPHOS proteins do not change, for example, both ATP1 and ATP2 do not change, which encode the alpha and beta subunits of F1 ATPase. They selectively reported the proteins' change in the direction along with their hypothesis.

      To clarify, we observe an increase in Cox2 protein levels but not in Tom70 levels which suggests that there is no increase in mitochondrial biogenesis. The increase is specific to some respiration related mitochondrial proteins such as Cox2 (Figure 1E, Figure 3A). We have clearly pointed out this in the manuscript. We used Cox2 protein levels as an additional readout for ETC activity, to validate our observations coming from the potentiometric mitotracker readouts, and basal oxygen consumption rate (OCR) measurements. This was for 3 reasons: Cox2 is a mitochondrial genome encoded subunit of the complex IV (cytochrome c oxidase) in the ETC, and has a redox centre critical for the cytochrome c oxidase activity. The biogenesis and assembly of complex IV subunits have been studied with respect to multiple conditions such as glucose availability and hypoxia and the expression and stability of the mitochondrial encoded complex IV subunits are exceptionally well correlated to changes in mitochondrial respiration (Fontanesi et al., 2006). Cox2 is very well characterised in S. cerevisiae, and the commercially available Cox2 antibodies are outstanding, which makes estimating Cox2 levels by western blotting unambiguous and reproducible.

      We re-analyzed the proteomic dataset from Isasa et al to find out additional information regarding the key nodes that are differentially regulated in ubp3Δ. We have not claimed at any point in the manuscript that all OXPHOS related proteins are upregulated in ubp3Δ, nor is there any need for that to be so. We identified Ubp3 from our screen, observed an increase in mitochondrial potential, basal OCR, and Cox2 levels. We later found out that the proteomic data set for ubp3Δ also supports our observations that mitochondrial respiration is upregulated in ubp3Δ. The reviewer points out that we “showed a few proteins in Fig3A to support their conclusion that ∆ubp3 increases mitochondrial OXPHOS proteins”. Our conclusion is that the deletion of Ubp3 increases mitochondrial respiration. The combined readouts which we used to reach this conclusion (OCR, mitochondrial potential, mitochondrial ATP production, Cox2 levels) are far more direct, comprehensive and conclusive than showing an increase in a few proteins related to OXPHOS, as also explained earlier toward a distinct reviewer query. Since different mitochondrial proteins are regulated by different mechanisms, we need not see an increase in all the OXPHOS proteins in a mutant like ubp3Δ where mitochondrial respiration is high. An increase in some key proteins would be sufficient to increase the respiration as seen in our case.

      To summarise, the proteomic dataset supports our observation, but our conclusions are not dependent on the increase in OXPHOS proteins observed in the dataset.

      (b) The authors said they deleted ETC component Cox2 in line 111. I checked their method and table S1, I cannot figure out how they selectively deleted COX2 from mtDNA. This must be a mistake.

      Yes, we understand that for mitochondrially encoded proteins, a simple knock-out strategy has limitations. However, we first tried to generate the Cox2 deletion mutant by a standard PCR mediated gene deletion strategy (Longtine 1998), with the optimistic assumption that even if all Cox2 is not lost, a substantial fraction of the Cox2 genes would be lost via recombination. We selected the transformants after strong antibiotic selection, and then we measured the Cox2 protein levels. Gratifyingly, we found that the mutant strain had substantially decreased Cox2 protein levels (but not a complete loss), and this was retained across generations. The data is shown below.

      Author response image 14.

      Cox2 levels in WT vs Cox2 mutants

      Since the mutants have decreased Cox2 levels, we went ahead and performed growth assays using this strain, in a WT or Ubp3 deletion background. Deletion of Ubp3 in the Cox2 mutant resulted in a more severe growth defect.

      However, we fully agree that this strain is not a complete Cox2 knockout, and it is possible that the decrease in Cox2 is due to modifications in some other unelated gene. In the text, we should also not have named this cox2Δ. Since we are not sure of the exact genetic modification in this mutant, we have removed this data from the revised manuscript.

      Instead, we have now repeated all experiments, utilizing a fully characterised Cox2 mutant -cox262, described in (5) which has defective respiration. In this revised version, we find that deletion of Ubp3 in this strain retains the originally observed severe growth defect in glucose. This is consistent with our conclusion that a functional mitochondria is required for proper growth in ubp3Δ mutant. To separately validate this conclusion, we also utilized a Rho0 strain which does not have mitochondrial DNA and thereby cannot perform mitochondrial respiration. We show that deletion of Ubp3 results in a more severe growth defect in a Rho0 strain. These results are included in the revised manuscript as figure 1-figure supplement 1 I.

      Author response image 15.

      Also, we further confirmed that the Rho0 strain and Rho0 ubp3 strain is incapable of respiration, using seahorse assay. This data is included in the revised manuscript as Figure 4-figure supplement 1G.

      Author response image 16.

      Basal OCR in Rho0 cells

      We hope that these new data address the reviewer’s concerns about the Cox2 mutant.

      (c) They used sodium azide in a lot of assays to inhibit complex IV. However, this chemical is nonspecific and broadly affects many ATPases as well. Not sure why they do not use more specific inhibitors that are commonly used to assay OCR in seahorse.

      We have now performed growth assays for WT and ubp3Δ cells in the presence of specific mitochondrial OXPHOS inhibitors - oligomycin and FCCP. We observe a more severe growth defect in ubp3Δ cells compared to WT cells in the presence of oligomycin and FCCP, similar to the results observed with sodium azide. All these data are now included in the revised manuscript as Figure 1I, Figure1-figure supplement 1H, along with associated text.

      Author response image 17.

      Growth rate in the presence of FCCP

      Author response image 18.

      Figure1-figure supplement 1H- Growth rate in the presence of oligomycin

      We hope that these new data addresses the reviewer’s concerns.

      (d) The authors measured cellular Pi level by grinding the entire cells to release Pi. However, this will lead to a mix of cytosolic and vacuolar Pi. Related to this caveat, the cytosol has ~50mM Pi, while only 1-2mM of these glycolysis metabolites, I am not sure why the reduction of several glycolysis enzymes will cause significant changes in cytosolic Pi levels and make Pi the limiting factor for mitochondrial respiration. One possibility is that the observed cytosolic Pi level changes were caused by the measurement issue mentioned above.

      The Pi estimation shown in figure 3 C, E, F and G is a measure of total Pi in the cells. The vacuole is a major storehouse of phosphate in cells. However, unlike plant cells where free phosphate is stored in vacuoles, yeast vacuoles store phosphate only in the form of polyphosphates (Yang et al., 2017, Hürlimann et al., 2007). The free Pi formed from the hydrolysis of polyphosphate is subsequently transported to cytosol via the exporter Pho91 (Hürlimann et al., 2007). This therefore makes cytosol and mitochondria the major storage of usable free Pi in yeast. Since the malachite green assay that we use for phosphate estimation is specific to free Pi, and not polyphosphate, the Pi estimates that we show in figure 3 come from a combination of cytosolic and mitochondrial Pi. As explained earlier, in order to specifically measure mitochondrial Pi, we have established methods to rapidly isolate mitochondria, and then followed this by estimating Pi in these isolated mitochondria (Figure 4B). Here we clearly see a large increase in mitochondrial Pi in the Ubp3 deletion cells. This allows us to estimate the changes in Pi levels that specific to mitochondria, without relying only on total Pi changes.

      “the cytosol has ~50mM Pi, while only 1-2mM of these glycolysis metabolites, I am not sure why the reduction of several glycolysis enzymes will cause significant changes in cytosolic Pi levels and make Pi the limiting factor for mitochondrial respiration”

      The reviewer has completely missed the fact that the glycolytic rate in yeast is the highest known for any cell. While the steady state levels of glycolytic metabolites might be ~2 mM, the process of glycolysis is not static but is rapid and continuous. Glucose is continuously broken down and converted to pyruvate, along with the consumption of Pi and generation of ATP. This is the reason for the rapid 13C label saturation (within seconds of 13C glucose addition) in yeast cells (Figure 2-figure supplement 1F). This instantaneous label saturation makes accurate flux measurements arduous because of which we had to optimize a method for measuring glycolytic flux in yeast cells (Figure 2-D, Figure 2-figure supplement 1F). Indeed, for that reason, our measurements of glycolytic flux in yeast are the first time this is being reported in the field. This in itself is an enormously challenging experiment, and establishes a new benchmark.

      In highly glycolytic cells, most of the ATP is synthesized via glycolysis and the rate of glycolysis and ATP synthesis is very high. In the reaction catalysed by GAPDH, Pi and ADP is converted to ATP. This ATP formed acts as a Pi donor to most of the Pi consuming reactions in the cells. Some of these processes such a protein translation utilizes ATP, but releases Pi and ADP and this Pi enters the cellular Pi pool. Several other reactions such as nucleotide biosynthesis, polyphosphate biosynthesis and protein phosphorylation use ATP as a Pi donor and the Pi is fixed in biomolecules. Increasing the rates of these ‘Pi sinks’ therefore can result in a decrease in Pi pools. This is a concept we have earlier tried to clarify more elaborately in (Gupta and Laxman, 2021). In fact, increasing nucleotide biosynthesis and polyphosphate synthesis has earlier been suggested to decrease available free Pi (Austin and Mayer 2020, Desfougères et al., 2016). When glycolytic flux is high, this is coupled/tuned to the consumption of Pi which will be correspondingly high due to increased ATP, nucleotide and polyphosphate synthesis. Pi levels rapidly decrease upon glucose addition, due to the continuous Pi consumption during glycolysis (Hohmann et al., 1996, Van Heerden et al., 2014 , Koobs et al., 1972). Therefore, changes in glycolytic rate due to change in glycolytic enzyme levels can result in significant changes in Pi levels due to changes in Pi consumption rate.

      Our results also show that the apart from Pi levels, the glycolytic state can regulate mitochondrial Pi transport as well. This is the reason for mitochondrial Pi levels and basal OCR not increasing merely by adding Pi to cells. We show that basal OCR can be increased by adding Pi in the presence of 2DG. This regulation of mitochondrial Pi transport is a major limiting factor for mitochondrial respiration and could be mediated partly by the regulating of Mir1 levels and also by the changes in the cytosolic pH which regulates the rate of mitochondrial Pi transport. We have discussed these points in the discussion section in our manuscript.

      We hope that this clarifies the reviewer’s concerns regarding how changes in glycolytic rate can regulate changes in cytosolic Pi levels.

      (e) The authors used ∆mir1 and MIR1 OE to show that Pi viability in the mitochondrial matrix is important for mitochondrial activity and biogenesis. This is not surprising as Pi is a key substrate required for OXPHOS activity. I doubt the approach of adding a control to determine whether Pi has a specific regulatory function, while other OXPHOS substrates, like ADP, O2 etc do not have the same effect.

      To clarify, we only used the mir1Δ cells to understand the requirement for Pi transport from cytosol to mitochondria in controlling respiration. The reviewer is correct in stating that deletion of Mir1 would reduce Pi import to mitochondria and thereby inhibit respiration. This is exactly the conclusion we suggest from this experiment as stated in the manuscript – “These data suggest that mitochondrial Pi transport (via Mir1) is critical for maintaining basal mitochondrial activity even in high glucose”. We have only used these experiments to support the idea that even though glycolysis and mitochondria are in different compartments, a change in Pi balance in one compartment (cytosol) can affect Pi levels in the other (mitochondria) since there is Pi transport between these two compartments. Since mitochondria has its own polyphosphate reserves, in the absence of these experiments with mir1Δ cells it can be imagined that mitochondria PolyP can be an additional source of Pi to support respiration, and therefore changes in cytosolic Pi may have only a minor effect on mitochondrial respiration. Our experiments with mir1Δ and Mir1-OEcells indubitably suggest that Pi transport to mitochondria from cytosol is important for respiration, and therefore changes in cytosolic Pi levels (or maintaining cytosolic Pi at a lower level due to the rate of glycolysis) will have rippling effects in mitochondrial Pi availability. Further, these data suggest that for example under glycolytic inhibition (low glucose, or 2DG), while all factors (signalling, substrate availability etc) favour respiration (and mitochondrial derepression), cells cannot unable to achieve this in the absence of ample Pi transport from cytosol. This therefore places Pi at the centre stage in controlling mitochondrial respiration.

      We conclude that Pi is a major, but not the only constraint for mitochondrial respiration. There certainly could be a role for ADP, oxygen availability etc in regulating respiration. However, these are beyond the scope of our study. We have discussed about the potential role of ADP in regulating mitochondrial repression in the discussion section. “An additional consideration is the possible contribution of changes in ADP in regulating mitochondrial activity, where the use of ADP in glycolysis might limit mitochondrial ADP. Therefore, when Pi changes as a consequence of glycolysis, it could be imagined that a change in ADP balance can coincidentally occur. However, prior studies show that even though cytosolic ADP decreases in the presence of glucose, this does not limit mitochondrial ADP uptake, or decrease respiration, due to the very high affinity of the mitochondrial ADP transporter.”

      We hope that this clarifies the reviewer’s concerns regarding the use of Mir1 OE and mir1Δ strains.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Some of the experiments should be repeated in other strain backgrounds for reproducibility and rigor.

      As discussed in the response to point number 1, we have now utilized multiple strains of S. cerevisiae to test our findings. We now find that our discoveries regarding the role of altered Pi budgeting as a constraint for mitochondrial respiration, and the role of Ubp3 as a regulator of mitochondrial repression are conserved across multiple genetic backgrounds of S. cerevisiae. These results are included in the revised manuscript as a new figure- Figure 6 and associated text. We used the W303, Σ1278 and BY4742 strains of S. cerevisiae to show that deletion of Ubp3 increases mitochondrial activity (as shown by increased mitochondrial membrane potential and increased Cox2 levels). Using the W303 strain we show that the deletion of Ubp3 increases Pi levels and that the increased Pi is necessary for increasing mitochondrial respiration (Figure 6C, D). These added experiments have substantially broadened the generality of our findings.

      The number of biological repeats needs to be increased in all experiments.

      We have increased the number of biological repeats in key experiments that shows that the increased Pi levels are necessary for the increased mitochondrial respiration in ubp3Δ and tdh2Δtdh3Δ cells (revised Figure 4F). Apart from a few basal OCR measurements and mitotracker data in supplementary figure, all our experiments are performed for 3 biological repeats. In case of basal OCR measurements, yeast cells have to be aliquoted to poly-L-lysine coated seahorse plates and centrifuged to ensure that the cells are properly settled. This is due to the non-adherent nature of yeast cells. During the centrifugation step, the wells in the two end rows cannot be utilized due to uneven settling of cells which affects the basal OCR readings in these wells. In case of several experiments that involve multiple samples, we were therefore limited to restrict the number of biological replicates to 2 (repeated independently), so that all samples could be accommodated in the plate.

      Full western blot images should be supplemented along with the other data.

      The complete western blot images are now included in the revised manuscript as supplementary file 2.

      TCA cycle flux should be analyzed and presented in the study to conclude some of the findings.

      As discussed in detail in the response to point number 2, we have performed steady state and flux measurements for TCA cycle intermediates. This data is now included as a new supplement figure- Figure 2-figure supplement 2.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In Fig. 2A, they should also include the gluconeogenesis enzymes (fructose 1,6 bisphosphatase, PEP carboxykinase, and pyruvate carboxylase) to exclude the possibility that glycolytic intermediates are not rerouted to gluconeogenesis.

      We measured the protein levels of Fbp1 (fructose 1,6 bisphosphatase) and Pck1 (PEP carboxykinase). We observed an increase in the protein levels in both enzymes in ubp3Δ. The data is shown below.

      Author response image 19.

      Fbp1 and Pck1 protein levels

      While we agree that this is an interesting observation which might help us in understanding the metabolic rewiring in ubp3Δ, we have not included this data in the current revised version of the manuscript due to two main reasons.

      (1) Since ubp3Δ cells have a defective glycolysis and therefore a defective glucose repression, the mRNA and protein levels of gluconeogenic enzymes which are usually glucose-repressed might increase. This might be a response at the level of transcription and translation of these enzymes and might or might not change the rate of gluconeogenesis in these cells. This is because of multiple other factors that regulate gluconeogenic flux such as allostery, mass action etc. Therefore, to avoid confounding our main points and since we cannot make a conclusive assumption on the gluconeogenic metabolism in these mutants, we don’t include this data. The primary focus of our story is the mitochondrial repression component. Understanding the feedback controls that alter gluconeogenesis in these mutants is beyond the scope of this study and could be addressed in a separate future study.

      (2) As we highlight extensively in the response letter and in the manuscript, our aim is not to understand the specific mechanistic role of Ubp3. In this manuscript, we identify the conserved constraints that control mitochondrial repression without focusing just on the role of Ubp3 in regulating this. Whether Ubp3 regulates gluconeogenesis is a question that could be addressed in a future study that focuses on identifying the altered signalling mechanisms in ubp3Δ and the targets of Ubp3.

      (2) In line 292, page 10, there is a typo "dermine".

      We apologize for this mistake. Corrected.

      (3) In Figure 5A, is there a reason why they chose 0.1% glucose condition as a low glucose condition? Also, is there a dose-dependent change in OCR or other mitochondrial functions according to the concentration of glucose?

      The glucose concentration of 0.1% was selected to decrease (but not completely remove) the available glucose. 0.1% glucose is considered as a standard low glucose condition in S. cerevisiae (Yin et al., 2003) and the effect of this glucose concentration on cellular processes has been extensively studied (Yin et al., 2003, Takeda et al., 2015 etc). <0.2% glucose is the critical threshold for activating respiratory metabolism (Takeda et al., 2015) and shifting cells to 0.1% glucose in our experiments will activate respiration, as we show in our data. However, this is very different from completely removing glucose or using an alternate carbon source such as ethanol, because this would result in full activation of gluconeogenesis. We further find that when cells are grown in ethanol, the gluconeogenic activation will also change the Pi homeostasis. This will in part be a result of the fully reversed direction of the GAPDH catalysed reaction (Figure 3G). If such a condition is used, it could lead to misinterpretations, and confound the conclusions that we make from these set of experiments where Pi homeostasis play a major role. In 0.1% glucose it has been shown that gluconeogenesis is still partly repressed (Yin et al., 2003). The pathways utilizing alternate carbon sources still remain repressed (even though to a lower extend compared to 2% glucose) in 0.1% glucose (Yin et al., 2003). We hope that this clarifies the concerns regarding the rationale behind using 0.1% glucose in our experiments.

      The extent of glucose repression is dependent on the concentration of glucose. Glucose concentration >1% has been shown to activate degradation of mRNAs involved in alternate carbon utilization. Different signaling pathways involved in growth under glucose and glucose repression is regulated by glucose concentration. This is discussed in detail in Yin et al., 2002. We (Figure 5figure supplement 1A) also observe a dose dependent increase in mitochondrial membrane potential in the presence of 2DG. This also suggests that the rate of glycolysis (which could be also mediated by changes in glucose concentration) can regulate the extent of mitochondrial derepression.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Reviews):  

      First, the metabolic network in this study is incomplete. For example, amino acid synthesis and lipid synthesis are important for biomass and growth, but they4 are not included in the three models used in this study. NADH and NADPH are as important as ATP/ADP/AMP, but they are not included in the models. In the future, a more comprehensive metabolic and biosynthesis model is required.  

      Thank you for the critical comment on the weakness of the present study. We actually tried to study a larger model like Turnborg et al (2021), which is a model of JCVI-syn3A, but we give up to include it in our model list to study in depth. This is because we noticed that the concentration of ATP in the model can be negative (we confirmed this with one of the authors of the paper). Another "big" kinetic model of metabolism that we could list would be Khodayari et al (2017). However, we could not find the models to compare the dynamics of this big model with. Therefore, we decided to use the model only for the central carbon metabolism for now. We would like to leave a more extended study for the near future.  

      We would like to mention that NADH and NADPH are included in Khodayari model and Boecker model, while NADH and NADPH are ramped up to NADH in the latter model.  

      Second, this work does not provide a mathematical explanation of the perturbation response χ. Since the perturbation analysis is performed close to the steady state (or at least belongs to the attractor of single-steady-state), local linear analysis would provide useful information. By complementing with other analysis in dynamical systems (described below) we can gain more logical insights about perturbation response.  

      We tried a linear stability analysis. However, with the perturbation strength we used here, the linearization of the model is no longer valid, in the sense that the linearized model

      leads to negative concentrations of the metabolites (xst+Δx < 0 for some metabolites). We have added a scatter plot of the response coefficient of trajectories sharing the initial condition, while the dynamics are computed by the original model and the linearized model, respectively. (Fig. S1). 

      Since the response coefficient is based on the logarithm of the concentrations, as the metabolite concentrations approach zero, the response coefficient becomes larger. The high response coefficient in the Boecker and Chassagnole model would be explained by this artifact.  The linearized Khodayari model shows either χ~1 or χ = 0 (one or more metabolite concentrations become negative). This could be due to the number of variables in the model. For the response coefficient to have a larger value, the perturbation should be along the eigenvector that leads to oscillatory dynamics with long relaxation time (i.e., the corresponding eigenvalue has a small real part in terms of absolute value and a non-zero imaginary part). However, since the Khodayari model has about 800 variables, if perturbations are along such directions, there is a high probability that one or more metabolite concentrations will become negative.

      We fully agree that if the perturbations on the metabolite concentrations are in the linear regime, the response to the perturbations can be estimated by checking the eigenvalues and eigenvectors. However, we would say that the relationship between the linearized model (and thus the spectrum of eigenvalues) and the original model is unclear in this regime.  We remarked this in Lines 158160.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      My major suggestion is about understanding the key quantity in this study: the response coefficient χ. When the perturbed state is close to the fixed point, one could adopt local stability analysis and consider the linearized system. For a linear system with one stable fixed point P, we consider the Jacobian matrix M on P. If all eigenvalues of M are real and negative, the perturbed trajectory will return to P with each component monotonically varies. If some eigenvalues have negative real part and nonzero imaginary part, then the perturbed trajectory will spiral inward to the fixed point. Depending on the spiral trajectory and the initially perturbed state, some components would deviate furthermore (transiently) from the fixed point on the spiral trajectory. This explains why the response coefficient χ can be greater than 1. 

      Mathematically, a locally linearized system has similar behavior to the linear system, and the examples in this study can be analyzed in the similar way. Specifically, if a system has many complex eigenvalues, then the perturbed trajectory is more likely to have further deviation. The metabolic network models investigated in this work are not extremely large, and hence the author could analyze its spectrum of the Jacobian matrix at the steady state. Since the steady state is stable, I expect the spectrum located in the left half of the complex plane. If the spectrum spread out away from the real axis, we expect to see more spiral trajectories under perturbation. I think the spectrum analysis will provide a complementary view with respect to analysis on χ.  The authors' major findings, about the network sparsity and cofactors, can also be investigated under the framework of the spectrum analysis.  

      Of course, when the nonlinear system is perturbed far away from the fixed point, there are other geometrical properties of the vector field that can cause the response coefficient χ to be greater than 1. This could also be investigated in the future by testing the behavior of small and large perturbations and observing if the systems have signatures of nonlinearity.  

      Since all perturbed states return to the steady state, the eigenvalues of the Jacobi matrix accompanying the linearized system around the steady state are in the left half complex plane (negative real value). Also, some eigenvalues have non-zero imaginary parts.    

      The reason we emphasize the "nonlinear regime" is that the linearization is no longer valid in this regime, i.e. the metabolite concentrations can be negative when we calculate the linearized system. Certainly, there are complex eigenvalues in the Jacobi matrix of any model. However, we would say that there is no clear relationship between the eigenvalues and the response coefficient.      

      Minor suggestions:  

      Line 127: Regarding the source of perturbation, cell division also generates unequal concentration of proteins and metabolites for two daughter cells, and it is an interesting mechanism to create metabolic perturbation. 

      Thank you for the insightful suggestion. We mentioned the cell division as another source of perturbation (Lines 130-131).

      Line 175: I do not quite understand the statement "fixing each metabolite concentration...", since the metabolite concentration in the ODE simulation would change immediately after this fixing.  

      We meant in the sentence that we fixed the concentration of the selected metabolite as the steady state concentration and set the dx/dt of that metabolite to zero. We have rewritten the sentences to avoid confusion (Lines 180-181).

      Figure 2: There are a lot of inconsistencies between the three models. Could we learn which model is more reasonable, or the conclusion here is that the cellular response under perturbation is model-specific? The latter explanation may not be quite satisfactory since we expect the overall cellular property should not be sensitive to the model details. 

      Ideally, the overall cellular property should be insensitive to model details. However, the reality is that the behavior of the models (e.g., steady-state properties, relaxation dynamics, etc.) depends on the specific parameter choices, including what regulation is implemented. I think this situation is part of the motivation for the ensemble modeling (by J. Liao and colleague) that has been developed.  

      Detailed responsiveness would be model specific. For example, FBP has a fairly strong effect in the Boecker model, but less so in the Khodayari model, and the opposite effect in the Chassagnole model (Fig. 2). Our question was whether there are common tendencies among kinetic models that tend to show model-specific behavior.  

      Reviewer 2 (Public Review):

      (1) In the study on determining key metabolites affecting responses to perturbations (starting from line 171), the authors fix the values of individual concentrations to their steady-state values and observe the responses. Such a procedure adds artificial constraints to the network because, in the natural responses of cells (and models) to perturbations, it is highly unlikely that metabolites will not evolve in time. By fixing the values of specific metabolites, the authors prohibit the metabolic network from evolving in the most optimal way to compensate for the perturbation. Instead of this procedure, have the authors considered for this task applying techniques from variance-based sensitivity analysis (Sobol, global sensitivity analysis), where they can calculate the first-order sensitivity index and total effect index? Using this technique, the authors would be able to determine the key metabolites while allowing for metabolic responses to perturbations without unnatural constraints. 

      Thank you for the useful suggestion for studying the roles of each metabolite for responsiveness. We have computed the total sensitivity index (Homma and Salteli, 1996) for each metabolite of each model (Fig.S5). The total sensitivity indices of ATP are high-ranked in Khodayari- and Chassagnole model, while it is middle-ranked in the Boecker model. We believe that the importance of the adenyl cofactors is highlighted also in terms of the Sobol’ sensitivity analysis (the figure is referred in Lines 193-195). 

      We have encountered a minor difficulty for computing the sensitivity index. For the computation of the sensitivity index, we need to carry out the following Monte Carlo integral, 

      where the superscript (m) is the sample number index. The subscript i represents the ith element of the vector x, and ~i represents the vector x except for the ith element. The tilde stands for resampling.  

      There are several conserved quantities in each model. For independent resampling, we need to deal with the conserved quantities. For the Boecker and Chassagnole models, we picked a single metabolite from each conservation law and solved its concentration algebraically to make the metabolite concentration the dependent variable. Then, we can resample the metabolite concentration of one metabolite without changing the concentrations of other metabolites, which are independent variables.  

      However, in the Khodayari model, it was difficult to solve the dependent variables because the model has about 800 variables. Therefore, we gave up the computations of the sensitivity indices of the metabolites whose concentration is part of any conserved quantities, namely NAD, NADH, NADP, NADPH, Q8, and Q8H2.

      (2) To follow up on the previous remark, the authors state that the metabolites that augment the response coefficient when their concentration is fixed tend to be allosteric regulators. The authors should report which allosteric regulations are implemented in each of the models so that one can compare against Figure 2. Again, the effect of allosteric regulation by a specific metabolite that is quantified the way the authors did is biased by fixing the concentration value - it is true that negative feedback is broken when the metabolite concentration is fixed, however, in the rate law, there is still the fixed inhibition term with its value corresponding to the inhibition at the steady state. To see the effect of allosteric regulation by a metabolite, one can change the inhibition constants instead of constraining the responses with fixed concentrations.  

      We have listed the substrate-level regulations (Table S1-3). Also, we re-ran the simulation with reduced the effect of the substrate-level regulations for the reactions that are suspected to influence the change of the response coefficient. Instead of fixing the concentrations (Fig. S6). 

      The impact of substrate-level regulations is discussed in Lines 203-212.   

      We replaced "allosteric regulation" with "substrate-level regulation" because we noticed that some regulations are not necessarily allosteric.

      (3) Given the role of ATP in metabolic processes, the authors' finding of the sensitivity of the three networks' responses to perturbations in the AXP concentrations seems reasonable. However, drawing such firm conclusions from only three models, with each of them built around one steady state and having one kinetic parameter set despite that they were built for different physiologies, raises some questions. It is well-known in studies related to basins of attraction of the steady states that the nonlinear responses also depend on the actual steady states, the values of kinetic parameters, and implemented kinetic rate law, i.e., not only on the topology of the underlying systems. In the population of only three models, we cannot exclude the possibility of overlaps and strong similarities in the values of kinetic parameters, steady states, and enzyme saturations that all affect and might bias the observed responses. Ideally, to eliminate the possibility of such biases, one should simulate responses of a large population of models for multiple physiologies (and the corresponding steady states) and multiple parameter sets per physiology. This can be a difficult task, but having more kinetic models in this work would go a long way toward more convincing results. Recently, E. coli nonlinear kinetic models from several groups appeared that might help in this task, e.g., Haiman et al., PLoS Comput Biol, 17(1): e1008208, (2021), Choudhury et al., Nat Mach Intell, 4, 710-719, (2022); Hu et al., Metab Eng, 82, 123-133 (2024), Narayanan et al., Nat Commun, 15:723, (2024). 

      We have computed the responsiveness of 215 models generated by the MASSpy package (Haiman et al, 2021). Several model realizations showed a strong responsiveness, i.e. a broader distribution of the response coefficient (Fig.S8), and mentioned in Lines 339-341.

      We would like to mention that the three models studied in the present manuscript have limited overlap in terms of kinetic rate law and, accordingly, parameter values. In the Khodayari model, all reactions are bi-uni or uni-uni reactions implemented by mass-action kinetics, while the Boecker and Chassagnole models use the generalized Michaelis-Menten type rate laws. Also, the relationship between the response coefficients of the original model and the linearized model highlights the differences between the models (Fig. S1). If the models were somewhat effectively similar, the scatter plots of the response coefficient of the original- and linearized model should look similar among the three models. However, the three panels show completely different trends. Thus, the three models have less similarity even when they are linearized around the steady states. 

      (4) Can the authors share their insights on what could be the underlying reasons for the bimodal distribution in Figure 1E? Even after adding random reactions, the distribution still has two modes - why is that?  

      We have not yet resolved why only the Khodayari model shows the bimodal distribution of the response coefficient. However, by examining the time courses, the dynamics of the Khodayari model look like those of the excitable systems. This feature may contribute to the bimodal distribution of the response coefficient. In the future, we would like to show whether the system is indeed the excitable system and whcih reactions contribute to such dynamics.

      (5) Considering the effects of the sparsity of the networks on the perturbation responses (from line 223 onwards), when we compare the three analyzed models, it is clear that the Khodayari et al. model is a superset of the other two models. Therefore, this model can be considered as, e.g., Chassagnole model with Nadd reactions (though not randomly added). Based on Figures 1b and S2, one can observe that the responses of the Khodayari models have stronger responses, which is exactly opposite to the authors' conclusion that adding the reactions weakens the responses.

      The authors should comment on this.  

      The sparsity of the network is defined by the ratio of the number of metabolites to the number of reactions. Note that the Khodayari model is a superset of the Boecker and Chassagnole models in terms of the number of reactions, but also in terms of the number of metabolites (Boecker does not have the pentose phosphate pathway, Chassagnole does not have the TCA cycle, and neither has oxyative phosphorylation). Thus, even if we manually add reactions to the Boecker model, for example, we cannot obtain a network that is equivalent to the Khodayari model.  We added one sentence to clarify the point (Lines 254-255).

      Recommendations for the authors: 

      (1) Some typos: Line 57, remove ?; Line 134, correct "relaxation". 

      Thank you for pointing out. We fixed the typos.

      (2) Lines 510-515, please rewrite/clarify, it is confusing what are you doing. 

      We rewrote the sentences (Lines 529-532). We are sorry for the confusion.

      (3) Line 522, where are the expressions above Leq and K*? 

      Leq appears in the original paper of the Boecker model, but we decided not to use Leq. We apologize for not removing Leq from the present manuscript. The * in K* is the wildcard for representing the subscripts. We added a description for the role of “*”. 

      (4) Lines 525-530, based on the wording, it seems like you test first for 128 initial concentrations if the models converge back to the steady state and then you generate another set of 128 initial concentrations - is this what you are doing, or you simply use the 128 initial concentrations that have passed the test? 

      We apologize for the confusion. We did the first thing. We have rewritten the sentence to make it clearer. 

      (5) Figure 3, caption, by "broken line," did the authors mean "dashed line"? 

      We meant dashed line. We changed “broken line” to “dashed line”.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      I applaud the authors' for providing a thorough response to my comments from the first round of review. The authors' have addressed the points I raised on the interpretation of the behavioral results as well as the validation of the model (fit to the data) by conducting new analyses, acknowledging the limitations where required and providing important counterpoints. As a result of this process, the manuscript has considerably improved. I have no further comments and recommend this manuscript for publication.

      We are pleased that our revisions have addressed all the concerns raised by Reviewer #1.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript proposes that the use of a latent cause model for assessment of memory-based tasks may provide improved early detection in Alzheimer's Disease as well as more differentiated mapping of behavior to underlying causes. To test the validity of this model, the authors use a previously described knock-in mouse model of AD and subject the mice to several behaviors to determine whether the latent cause model may provide informative predictions regarding changes in the observed behaviors. They include a well-established fear learning paradigm in which distinct memories are believed to compete for control of behavior. More specifically, it's been observed that animals undergoing fear learning and subsequent fear extinction develop two separate memories for the acquisition phase and the extinction phase, such that the extinction does not simply 'erase' the previously acquired memory. Many models of learning require the addition of a separate context or state to be added during the extinction phase and are typically modeled by assuming the existence of a new state at the time of extinction. The Niv research group, Gershman et al. 2017, have shown that the use of a latent cause model applied to this behavior can elegantly predict the formation of latent states based on a Bayesian approach, and that these latent states can facilitate the persistence of the acquisition and extinction memory independently. The authors of this manuscript leverage this approach to test whether deficits in production of the internal states, or the inference and learning of those states, may be disrupted in knock-in mice that show both a build-up of amyloid-beta plaques and a deterioration in memory as the mice age.

      Strengths:

      I think the authors' proposal to leverage the latent cause model and test whether it can lead to improved assessments in an animal model of AD is a promising approach for bridging the gap between clinical and basic research. The authors use a promising mouse model and apply this to a paradigm in which the behavior and neurobiology are relatively well understood - an ideal situation for assessing how a disease state may impact both the neurobiology and behavior. The latent cause model has the potential to better connect observed behavior to underlying causes and may pave a road for improved mapping of changes in behavior to neurobiological mechanisms in diseases such as AD.

      The authors also compare the latent cause model to the Rescorla-Wagner model and a latent state model allowing for better assessment of the latent cause model as a strong model for assessing reinstatement.

      Weaknesses:

      I have several substantial concerns which I've detailed below. These include important details on how the behavior was analyzed, how the model was used to assess the behavior, and the interpretations that have been made based on the model.

      (1) There is substantial data to suggest that during fear learning in mice separate memories develop for the acquisition and extinction phases, with the acquisition memory becoming more strongly retrieved during spontaneous recovery and reinstatement. The Gershman paper, cited by the authors, shows how the latent causal model can predict this shift in latent causes by allowing for the priors to decay over time, thereby increasing the posterior of the acquisition memory at the time of spontaneous recovery. In this manuscript, the authors suggest a similar mechanism of action for reinstatement, yet the model does not appear to return to the acquisition memory after reinstatement, at least based on the simulation and examples shown in figures 1 and 3. More specifically, in figure 1, the authors indicate that the posterior probability of the latent cause,z<sub>A</sub> (the putative acquisition memory), increases, partially leading to reinstatement. This does not appear to be the case as test 3 (day 36) appears to have similar posterior probabilities for z<sub>A</sub> as well as similar weights for the CS as compared to the last days of extinction. Rather, the model appears to mainly modify the weights in the most recent latent cause, z<sub>B</sub> - the putative the 'extinction state', during reinstatement. The authors suggest that previous experimental data have indicated that spontaneous recovery or reinstatement effects are due to an interaction of the acquisition and extinction memory. These studies have shown that conditioned responding at a later time point after extinction is likely due to a balance between the acquisition memory and the extinction memory, and that this balance can shift towards the acquisition memory naturally during spontaneous recovery, or through artificial activation of the acquisition memory or inhibition of the extinction memory (see Lacagnina et al. for example). Here the authors show that the same latent cause learned during extinction, z<sub>B</sub>, appears to dominate during the learning phase of reinstatement, with rapid learning to the context - the weight for the context goes up substantially on day 35 - in z<sub>B</sub>. This latent cause, z<sub>B</sub>, dominates at the reinstatement test, and due to the increased associative strength between the context and shock, there is a strong CR. For the simulation shown in figure 1, it's not clear why a latent cause model is necessary for this behavior. This leads to the next point.

      We would like to first clarify that our behavioral paradigm did not last for 36 days, as noted by the reviewer. Our reinstatement paradigm contained 7 phases and 36 trials in total: acquisition (3 trials), test 1 (1 trial), extinction 1 (19 trials), extinction 2 (10 trials), test 2 (1 trial), unsignaled shock (1 trial), test 3 (1 trial). The day is labeled under each phase in Figure 2A. 

      We have provided explanations on how the reinstatement is explained by the latent cause model in the first round of the review. Briefly, both acquisition and extinction latent causes contribute to the reinstatement (test 3). The former retains the acquisition fear memory, and the latter has the updated w<sub>context</sub> from unsignaled shock. Although the reviewer is correct that the z<sub>B</sub> in Figure 1D makes a great contribution during the reinstatement, we would like to argue that the elevated CR from test 2 (trial 34) to test 3 (trial 36) is the result of the interaction between z<sub>A</sub> and z<sub>B</sub>.

      We provided Author response image 1 using the same data in Figure 1D and 1E to further clarify this point. The posterior probability of z<sub>A</sub> increased after an unsignaled shock (trial 35), which may be attributed to the return of acquisition fear memory. The posterior probability of z<sub>A</sub> then decreased again after test 3 (trial 36) because there was no shock in this trial. Along with the weight change, the expected shock change substantially in these three trials, resulting in reinstatement. Note that the mapping of expected shock to CR in the latent cause model is controlled by parameter θ and λ. Once the expected shock exceeds the threshold θ, the CR will increase rapidly if λ is smaller.

      Lastly, accepting the idea that separate memories are responsible for acquisition and extinction in the memory modification paradigm, the latent cause model (LCM) is a rational candidate modeling this idea. Please see the following reply on why a simple model like the Rescorla-Wagner (RW) model is not sufficient to fully explain the behaviors observed in this study.

      Author response image 1.

      The sum posterior probability (A), the sum of associative weight of CS (B), and the sum of associative weight of context (C) of acquisition and extinction latent causes in Figure 1D and 1E.

      (2) The authors compared the latent cause model to the Rescorla-Wagner model. This is very commendable, particularly since the latent cause model builds upon the RW model, so it can serve as an ideal test for whether a more simplified model can adequately predict the behavior. The authors show that the RW model cannot successfully predict the increased CR during reinstatement (Appendix figure 1). Yet there are some issues with the way the authors have implemented this comparison:

      (2A) The RW model is a simplified version of the latent cause model and so should be treated as a nested model when testing, or at a minimum, the number of parameters should be taken into account when comparing the models using a method such as the Bayesian Information Criterion, BIC.

      We acknowledge that the number of parameters was not taken into consideration when we compared the models. We thank the reviewer for the suggestion to use the Bayesian Information Criterion (BIC). However, we did not use BIC in this study for the following reasons. We wanted a model that can explain fear conditioning, extinction and reinstatement, so our first priority is to fit the test phases. Models that simulate CRs well in non-test phases can yield lower BIC values even if they fail to capture reinstatement. When we calculate the BIC by using the half normal distribution (μ = 0, σ \= 0.3) as the likelihood for prediction error in each trial, the BIC of the 12-month-old control is -37.21 for the RW model (Appendix 1–figure 1C) and -11.60 for the LCM (Figure 3C). Based on this result, the RW model would be preferred, yet the LCM was penalized by the number of parameters, even though it fit better in trial 36. Because we did not think this aligned with our purpose to model reinstatement, we chose to rely on the practical criteria to determine whether the estimated parameter set is accepted or not for our purpose (see Materials and Methods). The number of accepted samples can thus roughly be seen as the model's ability to explain the data in this study. These exclusion criteria then created imbalances in accepted samples across models (Appendix 1–figure 2). In the RW model, only one or two samples met the criteria, preventing meaningful statistical comparisons of BIC within each group. Overall, though we agreed that BIC is one of the reasonable metrics in model comparison, we did not think it aligns with our purpose in this study.

      (2B) The RW model provides the associative strength between stimuli and does not necessarily require a linear relationship between V and the CR. This is the case in the original RW model as well as in the LCM. To allow for better comparison between the models, the authors should be modeling the CR in the same manner (using the same probit function) in both models. In fact, there are many instances in which a sigmoid has been applied to RW associative strengths to predict CRs. I would recommend modeling CRs in the RW as if there is just one latent cause. Or perhaps run the analysis for the LCM with just one latent cause - this would effectively reduce the LCM to RW and keep any other assumptions identical across the models.

      Regarding the suggestion to run the analysis using the LCM with one latent cause, we agree that this method is almost identical to the RW model, which is also mentioned in the original paper (Gershman et al., 2017). Importantly, it would also eliminate the RW model’s advantage of assigning distinct learning rates to different stimuli, highlighted in the next comment (2C).

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting applying the transformation of associative strength (V) to CR as in the LCM. We examined this possibility by heuristically selecting parameter values to test how such a transformation would influence the RW model (Author response image 2A). Specifically, we set α<sub>CS</sub> = 0.5, α<sub>context</sub> \= 1, β = 1, and introduced the additional parameters θ and λ, as in the LCM. This parameter set is determined heuristically to address the reviewer’s concern about a higher learning rate of context. The dark blue line is the plain associative strength. The remaining lines are CR curves under different combinations of θ and λ.

      Consistent with the reviewer’s comment, under certain parameter settings (θ \= 0.01, λ = 0.01), the extended RW model can reproduce higher CRs at test 3, thereby approximating the discrimination index observed in the 12-month-old control group. However, this modification changes the characteristics of CRs in other phases from those in the plain RW model. In the acquisition phase, the CRs rise more sharply. In the extinction phase, the CRs remain high when θ is small. Though changing λ can modulate the steepness, the CR curve is flat on the second day of the extinction phase, which does not reproduce the pattern in observed data (Figure 2B). These trade-offs suggest that the RW model with the sigmoid transformation does not improve fit quality and, in fact, sacrifices features that were well captured by simpler RW simulations (Appendix 1–figure 1A to 1D). To further evaluate this extended RW model (RW*), we applied the same parameter estimation method used in the LCM for individual data (see Materials and Methods). For each animal, α<sub>CS</sub>, α<sub>context</sub>, β, θ, and λ were estimated with their lower and upper bounds set as previously described (see Appendix 1, Materials and Methods). The results showed that the number of accepted samples slightly increased compared to the RW model without sigmoidal transformation of CR (RW* vs. RW in Author response image 2B, 2C). However, this improvement did not surpass the LCM (RW* vs. LCM in Author response image 2B, Author response image 1C). Overall, these results suggest that while using the same method to map the expected shock to CR, the RW model does not outperform the LCM. Practically, further extension, such as adding novel terms, might improve the fitting level. We would like to note that such extensions should be carefully validated if they are reasonable and necessary for an internal model, which is beyond the scope of this study. We hope this addresses the reviewer's concerns about the implementation of the RW model. 

      Author response image 2.

      Simulation (A) and parameter estimation (B and C) in the extended Rescorla-Wagner model.

      (2C) In the paper, the model fits for the alphas in the RW model are the same across the groups. Were the alphas for the two models kept as free variables? This is an important question as it gets back to the first point raised. Because the modeling of the reinstatement behavior with the LCM appears to be mainly driven by latent cause z<sub>B</sub>, the extinction memory, it may be possible to replicate the pattern of results without requiring a latent cause model. For example, the 12-month-old App NL-G-F mice behavior may have a deficit in learning about the context. Within the RW model, if the alpha for context is set to zero for those mice, but kept higher for the other groups, say alpha_context = 0.8, the authors could potentially observe the same pattern of discrimination indices in figure 2G and 2H at test. Because the authors don't explicitly state which parameters might be driving the change in the DI, the authors should show in some way that their results cannot simply be due to poor contextual learning in the 12 month old App NL-G-F mice, as this can presumably be predicted by the RW model. The authors' model fits using RW don't show this, but this is because they don't consider this possibility that the alpha for context might be disrupted in the 12-month-old App NL-G-F mice. Of course, using the RW model with these alphas won't lead to as nice of fits of the behavior across acquisition, extinction, and reinstatement as the authors' LCM, the number of parameters are substantially reduced in the RW model. Yet the important pattern of the DI would be replicated with the RW model (if I'm not mistaken), which is the important test for assessment of reinstatement.

      We would like to clarify that we estimated three parameters in the RW model for individuals:  α<sub>CS</sub>,  α<sub>context</sub>, and β. Even if we did so, many samples did not satisfy our criteria (Appendix 1–figure 2). Please refer to the “Evaluation of model fit” in Appendix 1 and the legend of Appendix 1–figure 1A to 1D, where we have written the estimated parameter values.

      We did not agree that paralyzing the contextual learning by setting  α<sub>context</sub>  as 0 in the RW model can explain the CR curve of 12-month-old AD mice well. Specifically, the RW model cannot capture the between-day extinction dynamics (i.e., the increase in CR at the beginning of day 2 extinction)  and the higher CR at test 3 relative to test 2 (i.e., DI between test 3 and test 2 is greater than 0.5). In addition, because the context input (= 0.2) was relatively lower than the CS input (= 1), and there is only a single unsignaled shock trial, even setting  α<sub>context</sub> = 1 results in only a limited increase in CR (Appendix 1–figure 1A to 1D; see also Author response image 2 9). Thus, the RW model cannot replicate the reinstatement effect or the critical pattern of discrimination index, even under conditions of stronger contextual learning.  

      (3) As stated by the authors in the introduction, the advantage of the fear learning approach is that the memory is modified across the acquisition-extinction-reinstatement phases. Although perhaps not explicitly stated by the authors, the post-reinstatement test (test 3) is the crucial test for whether there is reactivation of a previously stored memory, with the general argument being that the reinvigorated response to the CS can't simply be explained by relearning the CS-US pairing, because re-exposure the US alone leads to increase response to the CS at test. Of course there are several explanations for why this may occur, particularly when also considering the context as a stimulus. This is what I understood to be the justification for the use of a model, such as the latent cause model, that may better capture and compare these possibilities within a single framework. As such, it is critical to look at the level of responding to both the context alone and to the CS. It appears that the authors only look at the percent freezing during the CS, and it is not clear whether this is due to the contextual-US learning during the US re-exposure or to increased responding to the CS - presumably caused by reactivation of the acquisition memory. The authors do perform a comparison between the preCS and CS period, but it is not clear whether this is taken into account in the LCM. For example, the instance of the model shown in figure 1 indicates that the 'extinction cause', or cause z6, develops a strong weight for the context during the reinstatement phase of presenting the shock alone. This state then leads to increased freezing during the final CS probe test as shown in the figure. If they haven't already, I think the authors must somehow incorporate these different phases (CS vs ITI) into their model, particularly since this type of memory retrieval that depends on assessing latent states is specifically why the authors justified using the latent causal model. In more precise terms, it's not clear whether the authors incorporate a preCS/ITI period each day the cue is presented as a vector of just the context in addition to the CS period in which the vector contains both the context and the CS. Based on the description, it seemed to me that they only model the CRs during the CS period on days when the CS is presented, and thereby the context is only ever modeled on its own (as just the context by itself in the vector) on extinction days when the CS is not presented. If they are modeling both timepoints each day that the CS I presented, then I would recommend explicitly stating this in the methods section.

      In this study, we did not model the preCS freezing rate, and we thank the reviewer for the suggestion to model preCS periods as separate context-only trials. In our view, however, this approach is not consistent with the assumptions of the LCM. Our rationale is that the available periods of context and the CS are different. We assume that observation of the context lasts from preCS to CS. If we simulate both preCS (context) and CS (context and tone), the weight of context would be updated twice. Instead, we follow the same method as described in the original code from Gershman et al. (2017) to consider the context effect. We agree that explicitly modeling preCS could provide additional insights, but we believe it would require modifying or extending the LCM. We consider this an important direction for future research, but it is outside the scope of this study.

      (4) The authors fit the model using all data points across acquisition and learning. As one of the other reviewers has highlighted, it appears that there is a high chance for overfitting the data with the LCM. Of course, this would result in much better fits than models with substantially fewer free parameters, such as the RW model. As mentioned above, the authors should use a method that takes into account the number of parameters, such as the BIC.

      Please refer to the reply to public review (2A) for the reason we did not take the suggestion to use BIC. In addition, we feel that we have adequately addressed the concern of overfitting in the first round of the review. 

      (5) The authors have stated that they do not think the Barnes maze task can be modeled with the LCM. Whether or not this is the case, if the authors do not model this data with the LCM, the Barnes maze data doesn't appear valuable to the main hypothesis. The authors suggest that more sophisticated models such as the LCM may be beneficial for early detection of diseases such as Alzheimer's, so the Barnes maze data is not valuable for providing evidence of this hypothesis. Rather, the authors make an argument that the memory deficits in the Barnes maze mimic the reinstatement effects providing support that memory is disrupted similarly in these mice. Although, the authors state that the deficits in memory retrieval are similar across the two tasks, the authors are not explicit as to the precise deficits in memory retrieval in the reinstatement task - it's a combination of overgeneralizing latent causes during acquisition, poor learning rate, over differentiation of the stimuli.

      We would like to clarify that we valued the latent cause model not solely because it is more sophisticated and fits more data points, but it is an internal model that implicates the cognitive process. Please also see the reply to the recommendations to authors (3) about the reason why we did not take the suggestion to remove this data.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper seeks to identify underlying mechanisms contributing to memory deficits observed in Alzheimer's disease (AD) mouse models. By understanding these mechanisms, they hope to uncover insights into subtle cognitive changes early in AD to inform interventions for early-stage decline.

      Strengths:

      The paper provides a comprehensive exploration of memory deficits in an AD mouse model, covering early and late stages of the disease. The experimental design was robust, confirming age-dependent increases in Aβ plaque accumulation in the AD model mice and using multiple behavior tasks that collectively highlighted difficulties in maintaining multiple competing memory cues, with deficits most pronounced in older mice.

      In the fear acquisition, extinction, and reinstatement task, AD model mice exhibited a significantly higher fear response after acquisition compared to controls, as well as a greater drop in fear response during reinstatement. These findings suggest that AD mice struggle to retain the fear memory associated with the conditioned stimulus, with the group differences being more pronounced in the older mice.

      In the reversal Barnes maze task, the AD model mice displayed a tendency to explore the maze perimeter rather than the two potential target holes, indicating a failure to integrate multiple memory cues into their strategy. This contrasted with the control mice, which used the more confirmatory strategy of focusing on the two target holes. Despite this, the AD mice were quicker to reach the target hole, suggesting that their impairments were specific to memory retrieval rather than basic task performance.

      The authors strengthened their findings by analyzing their data with a leading computational model, which describes how animals balance competing memories. They found that AD mice showed somewhat of a contradiction: a tendency to both treat trials as more alike than they are (lower α) and similar stimuli as more distinct than they are (lower σx) compared to controls.

      Weaknesses:

      While conceptually solid, the model struggles to fit the data and to support the key hypothesis about AD mice's inability to retain competing memories. These issues are evident in Figure 3:

      (1) The model misses trends in the data, including the gradual learning of fear in all groups during acquisition, the absence of a fear response at the start of the experiment, and the faster return of fear during reinstatement compared to the gradual learning of fear during acquisition. It also underestimates the increase in fear at the start of day 2 of extinction, particularly in controls.

      (2) The model explains the higher fear response in controls during reinstatement largely through a stronger association to the context formed during the unsignaled shock phase, rather than to any memory of the conditioned stimulus from acquisition (as seen in Figure 3C). In the experiment, however, this memory does seem to be important for explaining the higher fear response in controls during reinstatement (as seen in Author Response Figure 3). The model does show a necessary condition for memory retrieval, which is that controls rely more on the latent causes from acquisition. But this alone is not sufficient, since the associations within that cause may have been overwritten during extinction. The Rescorla-Wagner model illustrates this point: it too uses the latent cause from acquisition (as it only ever uses a single cause across phases) but does not retain the original stimulus-shock memory, updating and overwriting it continuously. Similarly, the latent cause model may reuse a cause from acquisition without preserving its original stimulus-shock association.

      These issues lead to potential overinterpretation of the model parameters. The differences in α and σx are being used to make claims about cognitive processes (e.g., overgeneralization vs. over differentiation), but the model itself does not appear to capture these processes accurately.

      The authors could benefit from a model that better matches the data and captures the retention and retrieval of fear memories across phases. While they explored alternatives, including the Rescorla-Wagner model and a latent state model, these showed no meaningful improvement in fit. This highlights a broader issue: these models are well-motivated but may not fully capture observed behavior.

      Conclusion:

      Overall, the data support the authors' hypothesis that AD model mice struggle to retain competing memories, with the effect becoming more pronounced with age. While I believe the right computational model could highlight these differences, the current models fall short in doing so.

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comments. For the comments (1) and (2), please refer to our previous author response to comments #26 and #27. We recognize that the models tested in this study have limitations and, as noted, do not fully capture all aspects of the observed behavioral data. We see this as an important direction for future research and value the reviewer’s suggestions.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I have maintained some of the main concerns included in the first round of reviews as I think they remain concerns with the new draft, even though the authors have included substantially more analysis of their data, which is appreciated. I particularly found the inclusion of the comparative modeling valuable, although I think the analysis comparing the models should be improved.

      (1) This relates to point 1 in the public assessment or #16 in the response to reviewers from the authors. The authors raise the point that even a low posterior can drive behavioral expression (lines 361-365 in the response to authors), and so the acquisition latent cause may partially drive reinstatement. Yet in the stimulation shown in figure 1D, this does not seem to be the case. As I mentioned in the public response, in figure 1, the posteriors for z<sub>A</sub> are similar on day 34 and day 36, yet only on day 36 is there a strong CR. At least in this example, it does not appear that z<sub>A</sub> contributes to the increased responding from day 34 (test 2) to day 36 (test 3). There may be a slight increase in z1 in figure 3C, but the dominant change from day 34 to day 36 appears to be the increase in the posterior of z3 and the substantial increase in w3. The authors then cite several papers which have shown the shift in balance between what it is the putative acquisition memory and extinction memory (i.e. Lacagnina et al.). Yet I do not see how this modeling fits with most of the previous findings. For example, in the Lacagnina et al. paper, activation of the acquisition ensemble or inhibition of the extinction ensemble drives freezing, whereas the opposite pattern reduces freezing. What appears to be the pattern in the modeling in this paper is primarily learning of context in the extinction latent cause to predict the shock. As I mention in point 2C of the public review, it's not clear why this pattern of results would require a latent cause model. Would a high alpha for context and not the CS not give a similar pattern of results in the RW model? At least for giving similar results of the DIs in figure 2?

      First, we would like to clarify that the x-axis in Figure 1D is labeled “Trial,” not “Day.” Please refer to the reply to public review (1), where we clarified the posterior probability of the latent cause from trials 34 to 36. Second, although we did not have direct neural circuit evidence in this study, we discussed the similarities between previous findings and the modeling in the first review. Briefly, our main point focuses on the interaction between acquisition and extinction memory. In other words, responses at different times arise from distinct internal states made up of competing memories. We assume that the reviewer expects a modeling result showing nearly full recovery of acquisition memory, which aligns with previous findings where optogenetic activation of the acquisition engram can partially mimic reinstatement (Zaki et al., 2022; see also the response to comment #12 in the first round of review). We acknowledge that such a modeling result cannot be achieved with the latent cause model and see it as a potential future direction for model improvement.

      Please also refer to the reply to public review (2) about how a high alpha for context in the RW model cannot explain the pattern we observed in the reinstatement paradigm.

      (2) This is related to point 3 in the public comments and #13 in the response to reviewers. I raised the question of comparing the preCS/ITI period with the CS period, but my main point was why not include these periods in the LCM itself as mentioned in more detail in point 3 in the current public review. The inclusion of the comparisons the authors performed helped, but my main point was that the authors could have a better measure of wcontext if they included the preCS period as a stimulus each day (when only the context is included in the stimulus). This would provide better estimates of wcontext. As stated in the public review, perhaps the authors did this, but my understanding of the methods this was not the case, rather, it seems the authors only included the CS period for CRs within the model (at least on days when the CS was present).

      Please refer to the reply to public review (3) about the reason why we did not model the preCS freezing rate.

      (3) This relates to point 4 in the public review and #15 and #24 in the response to authors. The authors have several points for why the two experiments are similar and how results may be extrapolated - lines 725-733. The first point is that associative learning is fundamental in spatial learning. I'm not sure that this broad connection between the two studies is particularly insightful for why one supports the other as associative learning is putatively involved in most behavioral tasks. In the second point about reversals, why not then use a reversal paradigm that would be easier to model with LCM? This data is certainly valuable and interesting, yet I don't think it's helpful for this paper to state qualitatively the similarities in the potential ways a latent cause framework might predict behavior on the Barnes maze. I would recommend that the authors either model the behavior with LCM, remove the experiment from the paper, or change the framing of the paper that LCM might be an ideal approach for early detection of dementia or Alzheimer's disease.

      We would like to clarify that our aim was not to present the LCM as an ideal tool for early detection of AD symptoms. Rather, our focus is on the broader idea of utilizing internal models and estimating individual internal states in early-stage AD. Regarding using a reversal paradigm that would be easier to model with LCM, the most straightforward approach is to use another type of paradigm for fear conditioning, then to examine the extent to which similar behavioral characteristics are observed between paradigms within subjects. However, re-exposing the same mice to such paradigms is constrained by strong carry-over effects, limiting the feasibility of this experiment. Other behavioral tasks relevant to AD that avoid shock generally involve action selection for subsequent observation (Webster et al., 2014), which falls outside the structure of LCM. Our rationale for including the Barnes maze task is that spatial memory deficit is implicated in the early stage of AD, making it relevant for translational research. While we acknowledge that exact modeling of Barnes maze behavior would require a more sophisticated model (as discussed in the first round of review), our intention to use the reversal Barnes maze paradigm is to suggest a presumable memory modification learning in a non-fear conditioning paradigm. We also discussed whether similar deficits in memory modification could be observed across two behavioral tasks.

      (4) Reviewer # mentioned that the change in pattern of behavior only shows up in the older mice questioning the clinical relevance of early detection. I do think this is a valid point and maybe should be addressed. There does seem to be a bit of a bump in the controls on day 23 that doesn't appear in the 6-month group. Perhaps this was initially a spontaneous recovery test indicated by the dotted vertical line? This vertical line does not appear to be defined in the figure 1 legend, nor in figures 2 and 3.

      We would like to emphasize that the App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> knock-in mouse is widely considered a model of early-stage AD, characterized by Aβ accumulation with little to no neurofibrillary tangle pathology or neuronal loss (see Introduction). By examining different ages, we can assess the contribution of both the amount and duration of Aβ accumulation as well as age-related factors. Modeling the deficit in the memory modification process in the older App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> knock-in mice, we suggested a diverged internal state in early-stage AD in older age, and this does not diminish the relevance of the model for studying early cognitive changes in AD.

      We would also like to clarify again that the x-axis in the figure is “Trial,” not “Day.” The vertical dashed lines in these figures indicate phase boundaries, and they were defined in the figure legend: in Figure 1C, “The vertical dashed lines separate the phases.”; in Figure 2B, “The dashed vertical line separates the extinction 1 and extinction 2 phases.”; in Figure 3, “The vertical dashed lines indicate the boundaries of phases.”

      (5) Are the examples in figure 3 good examples? The example for the 12-month-old control shows a substantial increase in weights for the context during test 3, but not for the CS. Yet in the bar plots in Figure 4 G and H, this pattern seems to be different. The weights for the context appear to substantially drop in the "after extinction" period as compared to the "extinction" period. It's hard to tell the change from "extinction" to "after extinction" for the CS weights (the authors change the y-axis for the CS weights but not for the context weights from panels G to H).

      We would like to clarify that in Figure 3C, the increase in weights for context is not presented during test 3 (trial 36), noted by the reviewer; rather, it is the unsignaled shock phase (trial 35).

      We assumed that the reviewer might misunderstand that the labels on the left in Figure 4, “Acquisition”, “Extinction”, and “After extinction”, indicate the time point. However, the data shown in Figure 4C to 4H are all from the same time point: test 3 (trial 36). The grouping reflects the classification of latent causes based on the trial in which they were inferred. In addition, for Figures 4G and 4H, the y‐axis limits were not set identically because the data range for “Sum of w<sub>CS</sub>” varied. This was done to ensure the visibility of all data points. In Figure 4, each dot represents one animal. Take Figure 3D as an example. The point in Figure 4G is the sum of w3 and w4 in trial 36, and the point in Figure 4H is w5 in trial 36, note that the subscript numerals indicate latent cause index. We hope this addresses the reviewer’s question about the difference between the two figures.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors show certain memory deficits in a mouse knock-in model of Alzheimer's Disease (AD). They show that the observed memory deficits can be explained by a computational model, the latent cause model of associative memory. The memory tasks used include the fear memory task (CFC) and the 'reverse' Barnes maze. Research on AD is important given its known huge societal burden. Likewise, better characterization of the behavioral phenotypes of genetic mouse models of AD is also imperative to advance our understanding of the disease using these models. In this light, I applaud the authors' efforts.

      Strengths:

      (1) Combining computational modelling with animal behavior in genetic knock-in mouse lines is a promising approach, which will be beneficial to the field and potentially explain any discrepancies in results across studies as well as provide new predictions for future work.

      (2) The authors' usage of multiple tasks and multiple ages is also important to ensure generalization across memory tasks and 'modelling' of the progression of the disease.

      Weaknesses:

      [#1] (1) I have some concerns regarding the interpretation of the behavioral results. Since the computational model then rests on the authors' interpretation of the behavioral results, it, in turn, makes judging the model's explanatory power difficult as well. For the CFC data, why do knock-in mice have stronger memory in test 1 (Figure 2C)? Does this mean the knock-in mice have better memory at this time point? Is this explained by the latent cause model? Are there some compensatory changes in these mice leading to better memory? The authors use a discrimination index across tests to infer a deficit in re-instatement, but this indicates a relative deficit in re-instatement from memory strength in test 1. The interpretation of these differential DIs is not straightforward. This is evident when test 1 is compared with test 2, i.e., the time point after extinction, which also shows a significant difference across groups, Figure 2F, in the same direction as the re-instatement. A clarification of all these points will help strengthen the authors' case.

      We appreciate the reviewer for the critical comments. According to the latent cause framework, the strength of the memory is influenced by at least 2 parameters: associative weight between CS and US given a latent cause and posterior probability of the latent cause. The modeling results showed that a higher posterior probability of acquisition latent cause, but not higher associative weight, drove the higher test 1 CR in App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (Results and Discussion; Figure 4 – figure supplement 3B, 3C). In terms of posterior, we agree that App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice have strong fear memory. On the other hand, this suggests that App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice exhibited a tendency toward overgeneralization, favoring modification of old memories, which adversely affected the ability to retain competing memories. The strong memory in test 1 would be a compensatory effect of overgeneralization.    

      To estimate the magnitude of reinstatement, at least, one would have to compare CRs between test 2 (extinction) and test 3 (reinstatement), as well as those between test 1 (acquisition) and test 3. These comparisons represent the extent to which the memory at the reinstatement is far from that in the extinction, and close to that in the acquisition. Since discrimination index (DI) has been widely used as a normalized measure to evaluate the extent to which the system can distinguish between two conditions, we applied DI consistently to behavioral and simulated data in the reinstatement experiment, and the behavioral data in the reversal Barnes maze experiment, allowing us to evaluate the discriminability of an agent in these experiments. In addition, we used DI to examine its correlation with estimated parameters, enabling us to explore how individual discriminability may relate to the internal state. We have already discussed the differences in DI between test 3 and test 1, as well as CR in test 1 between control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> in the manuscript and further elaborated on this point in Line 232, 745-748.   

      [#2] (2) I have some concerns regarding the interpretation of the Barnes maze data as well, where there already seems to be a deficit in the memory at probe test 1 (Figure 6C). Given that there is already a deficit in memory, would not a more parsimonious explanation of the data be that general memory function in this task is impacted in these mice, rather than the authors' preferred interpretation? How does this memory weakening fit with the CFC data showing stronger memories at test 1? While I applaud the authors for using multiple memory tasks, I am left wondering if the authors tried fitting the latent cause model to the Barnes maze data as well.

      While we agree that the deficits shown in probe test 1 may imply impaired memory function in App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice in this task, it would be difficult to explain this solely in terms of impairments in general memory function. The learning curve and the daily strategy changes suggested that App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice would have virtually intact learning ability in the initial training phase (Figure 6B, 6F, Figure 6 – figure supplement 1 and 3). For the correspondence relationship between the reinstatement and the reversal Barnes maze learning from the aspect of memory modification process, please also see our reply to comment #24. We have explained why we did not fit the latent cause model to the Barnes maze data in the provisional response.

      [#3] (3) Since the authors use the behavioral data for each animal to fit the model, it is important to validate that the fits for the control vs. experimental groups are similar to the model (i.e., no significant differences in residuals). If that is the case, one can compare the differences in model results across groups (Figures 4 and 5). Some further estimates of the performance of the model across groups would help.

      We have added the residual (i.e., observed CR minus simulated CR) in Figure 3 – figure supplement 1D and 1E. The fit was similar between control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice groups in the test trials, except test 3 in the 12-month-old group. The residual was significantly higher in the 12-month-old control mice than App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice, suggesting the model underestimated the reinstatement in the control, yet the DI calculated from the simulated CR replicates the behavioral data (Figure 3 – figure supplement 1A to 1C). These results suggest that the latent cause model fits our data with little systematic bias such as an overestimation of CR for the control group in the reinstatement, supporting the validity of the comparisons in estimated parameters between groups. These results and discussion have been added in the manuscript Line 269-276.

      One may notice that the latent cause model overestimated the CR in acquisition trials in all groups in Figure 3 – figure supplement 1D and 1E. We have discussed this point in the reply to comment #26, 34 questioned by reviewer 3.

      [#4] (4) Is there an alternative model the authors considered, which was outweighed in terms of prediction by this model? 

      Yes, we have further evaluated two alternative models: the Rescorla-Wagner (RW; Rescorla & Wagner, 1972) model and the latent state model (LSM; Cochran & Cisler, 2019). The RW model serves as a baseline, given its known limitations in explaining fear return after extinction. The LSM is another contemporary model that shares several concepts with the latent cause model (LCM) such as building upon the RW model, assuming a latent variable inferred by Bayes’ rule, and involving a ruminative update for memory modification. We evaluated the three models in terms of the prediction accuracy and reproducibility of key behavioral features. Please refer to the Appendix 1 for detailed methods and results for these two models.

      As expected, the RW model fit well to the data till the end of extinction but failed to reproduce reinstatement (Appendix 1 – figure 1A to 1D). Due to a large prediction error in test 3, few samples met the acceptance criteria we set (Appendix 1 – figure 2 and 3A). Conversely, the LSM reproduced reinstatement, as well as gradual learning in acquisition and extinction phases, particularly in the 12month-old control (Appendix 1 – figure 1G). The number of accepted samples in the LSM was higher than in the RW model but generally lower than in the LCM (Appendix 1 – figure 2). The sum of prediction errors over all trials in the LSM was comparable to that in the LCM in the 6-month-old group (Appendix 1 – figure 4A), it was significantly lower in the 12-month-old group (Appendix 1 – figure 4B). Especially the LSM generated smaller prediction errors during the acquisition trials than in the LCM, suggesting that the LSM might be better at explaining the behaviors of acquisition (Appendix 1 – figure 4A and 4B; but see the reply for comment #34). While the LSM generated smaller prediction errors than the LCM in test 2 of the control group, it failed to replicate the observed DIs, a critical behavioral phenotype difference between control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (Appendix 1 – figure 6A to 6C; cf. Figure 2F to 2H, Figure 3 – figure supplement 1A to 1C).

      Thus, although each model could capture different aspects of reinstatement, standing on the LCM to explain the reinstatement better aligns with our purpose. It should also be noted that we did not explore all parameter spaces of the LSM, hence we cannot rule out the possibility that alternative parameter sets could provide a better fit and explain the memory modification process well. A more comprehensive parameter search in the LSM may be a valuable direction for future research. 

      [#5] One concern here is also parameter overfitting. Did the authors try leaving out some data (trials/mice) and predicting their responses based on the fit derived from the training data?

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we confirmed if overfitting occurred using all trials to estimate parameters. Estimating parameters while actually leaving out trials would disorder the time lapse across trials, and thereby the prior of latent causes in each trial. Instead, we removed the constraint of prediction error by setting the error threshold to 1 for certain trials to virtually leave these trials out. We treated these trials as a virtual “training” dataset, while the rest of the trials were a “test” dataset. For the median CR data of each group (Figure 3), we estimated parameters under 6 conditions with unique training and test trials, then evaluated the prediction error for the training and test trials. Note that training and test trials were arbitrarily decided. Also, the error threshold for the acquisition trial was set to 1 as described in Materials and Methods, which we have further discussed the reason in the reply to comment #34 and treated acquisition trials separately from the test trials. We expect that the contribution of the data from the acquisition and test trials for parameter estimation could be discounted compared to those from the training trials with the constraint, and if overfitting occurred, the prediction error in the test data would be worse than that in the training trials.

      Author response image 1A to 1F showed the simulated and observed CR under each condition, where acquisition trials were in light-shaded areas, test trials were in dark-shaded areas, and the rest of the trials were training trials. Author response image 1G showed mean squared prediction error across the acquisition, training and test trials under each condition. The dashed gray line showed the mean squared prediction error of training trials in Figure 3 as a baseline.

      In conditions i and ii, where two or four trials in the extinction were used for training (Author response image 1A and 1B), the prediction error was generally higher in test trials than in training trials. In conditions iii and iv where ten trials in the extinction were used for training (Author response image 1C and 1D), the difference in prediction error between testing and training trials became smaller. These results suggest that providing more extinction trial data would reduce overfitting. In condition v (Author response image 1E), the results showed that using trials until extinction can predict reinstatement in control mice but not App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice. Similarly, in condition vi (Author response image 1F), where test phase trials were left out, the prediction error differences were greater in App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice. These results suggest that the test trials should be used for the parameter estimation to minimize prediction error for all groups. Overall, this analysis suggests that using all trials would reduce prediction error with few overfitting. 

      Author response image 1.

      Leaving trials out in parameter estimation in the latent cause model. (A – F) The observed CR (colored line) is the median freezing rate during the CS presentation over the mice within each group, which is the same as that in Figure 3. The colors indicate different groups: orange represents 6-month-old control, light blue represents 6-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice, pink represents 12-month-old control, and dark blue represents 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice. Under six different leave-out conditions (i – vi), parameters were estimated and used for generating simulated CR (gray line). In each condition, trials were categorized as acquisition (light-shaded area), training data (white area), and test data (dark-shaded area) based on the error threshold during parameter estimation. Only the error threshold of the test data trial was different from the original method (see Material and Method) and set to 1. In conditions i to vi, the number of test data trials is 27, 25, 19, and 19 in extinction phases. In condition v, the number of test data trials is 2 (trials 35 and 36). In condition vi, test data trials were the 3 test phases (trials 4, 34, and 36). (G) Each subplot shows the mean squared prediction error for the test data trial (gray circles), training data trial (white squares), and acquisition trial (gray triangles) in each group. The left y-axis corresponds to data from test and training trials, and the right y-axis corresponds to data from acquisition trials. The dashed line indicates the results calculated from Figure 3 as a baseline.  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor:

      [#6] (1) I would like the authors to further clarify why 'explaining' the reinstatement deficit in the AD mouse model is important in working towards the understanding of AD i.e., which aspect of AD this could explain etc.

      In this study, we utilized the reinstatement paradigm with the latent cause model as an internal model to illustrate how estimating internal states can improve understanding of cognitive alteration associated with extensive Aβ accumulation in the brain. Our findings suggest that misclassification in the memory modification process, manifesting as overgeneralization and overdifferentiation, underlies the memory deficit in the App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> knock-in model mice. 

      The parameters in the internal model associated with AD pathology (e.g., α and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> in this study) can be viewed as computational phenotypes, filling the explanatory gap between neurobiological abnormalities and cognitive dysfunction in AD. This would advance the understanding of cognitive symptoms in the early stages of AD beyond conventional behavioral endpoints alone.

      We further propose that altered internal states in App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> knock-in mice may underlie a wide range of memory-related symptoms in AD as we observed that App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> knock-in mice failed to retain competing memories in the reversal Barnes maze task. We speculate on how overgeneralization and overdifferentiation may explain some AD symptoms in the manuscript:

      - Line 565-569: overgeneralization may explain deficits in discriminating highly similar visual stimuli reported in early-stage AD patients as they misclassify the lure as previously learned object

      - Line 576-579: overdifferentiation may explain impaired ability to transfer previously learned association rules in early-stage AD patients as they misclassify them as separated knowledge. 

      - Line 579-582: overdifferentiation may explain delusions in AD patients as an extended latent cause model could simulate the emergence of delusional thinking

      We provide one more example here that overgeneralization may explain that early-stage AD patients are more susceptible to proactive interference than cognitively normal elders in semantic memory tests (Curiel Cid et al., 2024; Loewenstein et al., 2015, 2016; Valles-Salgado et al., 2024), as they are more likely to infer previously learned material. Lastly, we expect that explaining memory-related symptoms within a unified framework may facilitate future hypothesis generation and contribute to the development of strategies for detecting the earliest cognitive alteration in AD.  

      [#7] (2) The authors state in the abstract/introduction that such computational modelling could be most beneficial for the early detection of memory disorders. The deficits observed here are pronounced in the older animals. It will help to further clarify if these older animals model the early stages of the disease. Do the authors expect severe deficits in this mouse model at even later time points?

      The early stage of the disease is marked by abnormal biomarkers associated with Aβ accumulation and neuroinflammation, while cognitive symptoms are mild or absent. This stage can persist for several years during which the level of Aβ may reach a plateau. As the disease progresses, tau pathology and neurodegeneration emerge and drive the transition into the late stage and the onset of dementia. The App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> knock-in mice recapitulate the features present in the early stage (Saito et al., 2014), where extensive Aꞵ accumulation and neuroinflammation worsen along with ages (Figure 2 – figure supplement 1). Since App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> knock-in mice are central to Aβ pathology without tauopathy and neurodegeneration, it should be noted that it does not represent the full spectrum of the disease even at advanced ages. Therefore, older animals still model the early stages of the diseases and are suitable to study the long-term effect of Aβ accumulation and neuroinflammation. 

      The age tested in previous reports using App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice spanned a wide range from 2 months old to 24 months old. Different behavioral tasks have varied sensitivity but overall suggest the dysfunction worsens with aging (Bellio et al., 2024; Mehla et al., 2019; Sakakibara et al., 2018). We have tested the reinstatement experiment with 17-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice before (Author response image 2). They showed more advanced deficits with the same trends observed in 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice, but their freezing rates were overall at a lower level. There is a concern that possible hearing loss may affect the results and interpretation, therefore we decided to focus on 12-month-old data.

      Author response image 2.

      Freezing rate across reinstatement paradigm in the 17-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice. Dashed and solid lines indicate the median freezing rate over 34 mice before (preCS) and during (CS) tone presentation, respectively. Red, blue, and yellow backgrounds represent acquisition, extinction, and unsignaled shock in Figure 2A. The dashed vertical line separates the extinction 1 and extinction 2 phases.

      [#8] (3) There are quite a few 'marginal' p-values in the paper at p>0.05 but near it. Should we accept them all as statistically significant? The authors need to clarify if all the experimental groups are sufficiently powered.

      For our study, we decided a priori that p < 0.05 would be considered statistically significant, as described in the Materials and Methods. Therefore, in our Results, we did not consider these marginal values as statistically significant but reported the trend, as they may indicate substantive significance.

      We described our power analysis method in the manuscript Line 897-898 and have provided the results in Tables S21 and S22.

      [#9] (4) The authors emphasize here that such computational modelling enables us to study the underlying 'reasoning' of the patient (in the abstract and introduction), I do not see how this is the case. The model states that there is a latent i.e. another underlying variable that was not previously considered.

      Our use of the term “reasoning” was to distinguish the internal model, which describes how an agent makes sense of the world, from other generative models implemented for biomarker and disease progression prediction. However, we agree that using “reasoning” may be misleading and imprecise, so to reduce ambiguity we have removed this word in our manuscript Line 27: Nonetheless, internal models of the patient remain underexplored in AD; Line 85: However, previous approaches did not suppose an internal model of the world to predict future from current observation given prior knowledge.   

      [#10] (5) The authors combine knock-in mice with controls to compute correlations of parameters of the model with behavior of animals (e.g. Figure 4B and Figure 5B). They run the risk of spurious correlations due to differences across groups, which they have indeed shown to exist (Figure 4A and 5A). It would help to show within-group correlations between DI and parameter fit, at least for the control group (which has a large spread of data).

      We agree that genotype (control, App<sup>NL-G-F</sup>) could be a confounder between the estimated parameters and DI, thereby generating spurious correlations. To address this concern, we have provided withingroup correlation in Figure 4 – figure supplement 2 for the 12-month-old group and Figure 5 – figure supplement 2 for the 6-month-old group.

      In the 12-month-old group, the significant positive correlation between σx2 and DI remained in both control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice even if we adjusted the genotype effect, suggesting that it is very unlikely that the correlations in Figure 4B are due to the genotype-related confounding. On the other hand, the positive correlation between α and DI was found to be significant in the control mice but not in the App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice. Most of α were distributed around the lower bound in App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice, which possibly reduced the variance and correlation coefficient. These results support our original conclusion that α and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> are parameters associated with a lower magnitude of reinstatement in aged App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice.

      In the 6-month-old group, the correlations shown in Figure 5B were not preserved within subgroups, suggesting genotype would be a confounder for α, σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup>, and DI. We recognized that significant correlations in Figure 5B may arise from group differences, increased sample size, or greater variance after combining control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice. 

      Therefore, we concluded that α and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> are associated with the magnitude of reinstatement but modulated by the genotype effect depending on the age. 

      We have added interpretations of within-group correlation in the manuscript Line 307-308, 375-378.

      [#11] (6) It is unclear to me why overgeneralization of internal states will lead to the animals having trouble recalling a memory. Would this not lead to overgeneralization of memory recall instead?

      We assume that the reviewer is referring to “overgeneralization of internal states,” a case in which the animal’s internal state remained the same regardless of the observation, thereby leading to “overgeneralization of memory recall.” We agree that this could be one possible situation and appears less problematic than the case in which this memory is no longer retrievable. 

      However, in our manuscript, we did not deal with the case of “overgeneralization of internal states”. Rather, our findings illustrated how the memory modification process falls into overgeneralization or overdifferentiation and how it adversely affects the retention of competing memories, thereby causing App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice to have trouble recalling the same memory as the control mice. 

      According to the latent cause model, retrieval failure is explained by a mismatch of internal states, namely when an agent perceives that the current cue does not match a previously experienced one, the old latent cause is less likely to be inferred due to its low likelihood (Gershman et al., 2017). For example, if a mouse exhibited higher CR in test 2, it would be interpreted as a successful fear memory retrieval due to overgeneralization of the fear memory. However, it reflects a failure of extinction memory retrieval due to the mismatch between the internal states at extinction and test 2. This is an example that overgeneralization of memory induces the failure of memory retrieval. 

      On the other hand, App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice exhibited higher CR in test 1, which is conventionally interpreted as a successful fear memory retrieval. When estimating their internal states, they would infer that their observation in test 1 well matches those under the acquisition latent causes, that is the overgeneralization of fear memory as shown by a higher posterior probability in acquisition latent causes in test 1 (Figure 4 – figure supplement 3). This is an example that over-generalization of memory does not always induce retrieval failure as we explained in the reply to comment #1. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript proposes that the use of a latent cause model for the assessment of memory-based tasks may provide improved early detection of Alzheimer's Disease as well as more differentiated mapping of behavior to underlying causes. To test the validity of this model, the authors use a previously described knock-in mouse model of AD and subject the mice to several behaviors to determine whether the latent cause model may provide informative predictions regarding changes in the observed behaviors. They include a well-established fear learning paradigm in which distinct memories are believed to compete for control of behavior. More specifically, it's been observed that animals undergoing fear learning and subsequent fear extinction develop two separate memories for the acquisition phase and the extinction phase, such that the extinction does not simply 'erase' the previously acquired memory. Many models of learning require the addition of a separate context or state to be added during the extinction phase and are typically modeled by assuming the existence of a new state at the time of extinction. The Niv research group, Gershman et al. 2017, have shown that the use of a latent cause model applied to this behavior can elegantly predict the formation of latent states based on a Bayesian approach, and that these latent states can facilitate the persistence of the acquisition and extinction memory independently. The authors of this manuscript leverage this approach to test whether deficits in the production of the internal states, or the inference and learning of those states, may be disrupted in knock-in mice that show both a build-up of amyloid-beta plaques and a deterioration in memory as the mice age.

      Strengths:

      I think the authors' proposal to leverage the latent cause model and test whether it can lead to improved assessments in an animal model of AD is a promising approach for bridging the gap between clinical and basic research. The authors use a promising mouse model and apply this to a paradigm in which the behavior and neurobiology are relatively well understood - an ideal situation for assessing how a disease state may impact both the neurobiology and behavior. The latent cause model has the potential to better connect observed behavior to underlying causes and may pave a road for improved mapping of changes in behavior to neurobiological mechanisms in diseases such as AD.

      Weaknesses:

      I have several substantial concerns which I've detailed below. These include important details on how the behavior was analyzed, how the model was used to assess the behavior, and the interpretations that have been made based on the model.

      [#12] (1) There is substantial data to suggest that during fear learning in mice separate memories develop for the acquisition and extinction phases, with the acquisition memory becoming more strongly retrieved during spontaneous recovery and reinstatement. The Gershman paper, cited by the authors, shows how the latent causal model can predict this shift in latent states by allowing for the priors to decay over time, thereby increasing the posterior of the acquisition memory at the time of spontaneous recovery. In this manuscript, the authors suggest a similar mechanism of action for reinstatement, yet the model does not appear to return to the acquisition memory state after reinstatement, at least based on the examples shown in Figures 1 and 3. Rather, the model appears to mainly modify the weights in the most recent state, putatively the 'extinction state', during reinstatement. Of course, the authors must rely on how the model fits the data, but this seems problematic based on prior research indicating that reinstatement is most likely due to the reactivation of the acquisition memory. This may call into question whether the model is successfully modeling the underlying processes or states that lead to behavior and whether this is a valid approach for AD.

      We thank the reviewer for insightful comments. 

      We agree that, as demonstrated in Gershman et al. (2017), the latent cause model accounts for spontaneous recovery via the inference of new latent causes during extinction and the temporal compression property provided by the prior. Moreover, it was also demonstrated that even a relatively low posterior can drive behavioral expression if the weight in the acquisition latent cause is preserved. For example, when the interval between retrieval and extinction was long enough that acquisition latent cause was not dominant during extinction, spontaneous recovery was observed despite the posterior probability of acquisition latent cause (C1) remaining below 0.1 in Figure 11D of Gershman et al. (2017). 

      In our study, a high response in test 3 (reinstatement) is explained by both acquisition and extinction latent cause. The former preserves the associative weight of the initial fear memory, while the latter has w<sub>context</sub> learned in the unsignaled shock phase. These positive w were weighted by their posterior probability and together contributed to increased expected shock in test 3. Though the posterior probability of acquisition latent cause was lower than extinction latent cause in test 3 due to time passage, this would be a parallel instance mentioned above. To clarify their contributions to reinstatement, we have conducted additional simulations and the discussion in reply to the reviewer’s next comment (see the reply to comment #13).

      We recognize that our results might appear to deviate from the notion that reinstatement results from the strong reactivation of acquisition memory, where one would expect a high posterior probability of the acquisition latent cause. However, we would like to emphasize that the return of fear emerges from the interplay of competing memories. Previous studies have shown that contextual or cued fear reinstatement involves a neural activity switch back to fear state in the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC), including the prelimbic cortex and infralimbic cortex, and the amygdala, including ventral intercalated amygdala neurons (ITCv), medial subdivision of central nucleus of the amygdala (CeM), and the basolateral amygdala (BLA) (Giustino et al., 2019; Hitora-Imamura et al., 2015; Zaki et al., 2022). We speculate that such transition is parallel to the internal states change in the latent cause model in terms of posterior probability and associative weight change.

      Optogenetic manipulation experiments have further revealed how fear and extinction engrams contribute to extinction retrieval and reinstatement. For instance, Gu et al. (2022) used a cued fear conditioning paradigm and found that inhibition of extinction engrams in the BLA, ventral hippocampus (vHPC), and mPFC after extinction learning artificially increased freezing to the tone cue. Similar results were observed in contextual fear conditioning, where silencing extinction engrams in the hippocampus dentate gyrus (DG) impaired extinction retrieval (Lacagnina et al., 2019). These results suggest that the weakening extinction memory can induce a return of fear response even without a reminder shock. On the other hand, Zaki et al. (2022) showed that inhibition of fear engrams in the BLA, DG, or hippocampus CA1 attenuated contextual fear reinstatement. However, they also reported that stimulation of these fear engrams was not sufficient to induce reinstatement, suggesting these fear engram only partially account for reinstatement. 

      In summary, reinstatement likely results from bidirectional changes in the fear and extinction circuits, supporting our interpretation that both acquisition and extinction latent causes contribute to the reinstatement. Although it remains unclear whether these memory engrams represent latent causes, one possible interpretation is that w<sub>context</sub> update in extinction latent causes during unsignaled shock indicates weakening of the extinction memory, while preservation of w in acquisition latent causes and their posterior probability suggests reactivation of previous fear memory. 

      [#13] (2) As stated by the authors in the introduction, the advantage of the fear learning approach is that the memory is modified across the acquisition-extinction-reinstatement phases. Although perhaps not explicitly stated by the authors, the post-reinstatement test (test 3) is the crucial test for whether there is reactivation of a previously stored memory, with the general argument being that the reinvigorated response to the CS can't simply be explained by relearning the CS-US pairing, because re-exposure the US alone leads to increase response to the CS at test. Of course there are several explanations for why this may occur, particularly when also considering the context as a stimulus. This is what I understood to be the justification for the use of a model, such as the latent cause model, that may better capture and compare these possibilities within a single framework. As such, it is critical to look at the level of responding to both the context alone and to the CS. It appears that the authors only look at the percent freezing during the CS, and it is not clear whether this is due to the contextual US learning during the US re-exposure or to increased response to the CS - presumably caused by reactivation of the acquisition memory. For example, the instance of the model shown in Figure 1 indicates that the 'extinction state', or state z6, develops a strong weight for the context during the reinstatement phase of presenting the shock alone. This state then leads to increased freezing during the final CS probe test as shown in the figure. By not comparing the difference in the evoked freezing CR at the test (ITI vs CS period), the purpose of the reinstatement test is lost in the sense of whether a previous memory was reactivated - was the response to the CS restored above and beyond the freezing to the context? I think the authors must somehow incorporate these different phases (CS vs ITI) into their model, particularly since this type of memory retrieval that depends on assessing latent states is specifically why the authors justified using the latent causal model.

      To clarify the contribution of context, we have provided preCS freezing rate across trials in Figure 2 – figure supplement 2. As the reviewer pointed out, the preCS freezing rate did not remain at the same level across trials, especially within the 12-month-old control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> group (Figure 2 – figure supplement 2A and 2B), suggesting the effect context. A paired samples t-test comparing preCS freezing (Figure 2 – figure supplement 2E) and CS freezing (Figure 2E) in test 3 revealed significant differences in all groups: 6-month-old control, t(23) = -6.344, p < 0.001, d = -1.295; 6-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup>, t(24) = -4.679, p < 0.001, d = -0.936; 12-month-old control, t(23) = -4.512, p < 0.001, d = 0.921; 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup>, t(24) = -2.408, p = 0.024, d = -0.482. These results indicate that the response to CS was above and beyond the response to context only. We also compared the change in freezing rate (CS freezing rate minus preCS freezing rate) in test 2 and test 3 to examine the net response to the tone. The significant difference was found in the control group, but not in the App<sup>NL-GF</sup> group (Author response image 3). The increased net response to the tone in the control group suggested that the reinstatement was partially driven by reactivation of acquisition memory, not solely by the contextual US learning during the unsignaled shock phase. We have added these results and discussion in the manuscript Line 220-231.

      Author response image 3.

      Net freezing rate in test 2 and test 3. Net freezing rate is defined as the CS freezing rate (i.e., freezing rate during 1 min CS presentation) minus the preCS freezing rate (i.e., 1 min before CS presentation). The dashed horizontal line indicates no freezing rate change from the preCS period to the CS presentation. *p < 0.05 by paired-sample Student’s t-test, and the alternative hypothesis specifies that test 2 freezing rate change is less than test 3. Colors indicate different groups: orange represents 6-month-old control (n = 24), light blue represents 6-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (n = 25), pink represents 12-month-old control (n = 24), and dark blue represents 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (n = 25). Each black dot represents one animal. Statistical results were as follows: t(23) = -1.927, p = 0.033, Cohen’s d = -0.393 in 6-month-old control; t(24) = -1.534, p = 0.069, Cohen’s d = -0.307 in 6-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup>; t(23) = -1.775, p = 0.045, Cohen’s d = -0.362 in 12-month-old control; t(24) = 0.86, p = 0.801, Cohen’s d = 0.172 in 12-monthold App<sup>NL-G-F</sup>

      According to the latent cause model, if the reinstatement is merely induced by an association between the context and the US in the unsignaled shock phase, the CR given context only and that given context and CS in test 3 should be equal. However, the simulation conducted for each mouse using their estimated parameters confirmed that this was not the case in this study. The results showed that simulated CR was significantly higher in the context+CS condition than in the context only condition (Author response image 4). This trend is consistent with the behavioral results we mentioned above.

      Author response image 4.

      Simulation of context effect in test 3. Estimated parameter sets of each sample were used to run the simulation that only context or context with CS was present in test 3 (trial 36). The data are shown as median with interquartile range, where white bars with colored lines represent CR for context only and colored bars represent CR for context with CS. Colors indicate different groups: orange represents 6-month-old control (n = 15), light blue represents 6-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (n = 12), pink represents 12-month-old control (n = 20), and dark blue represents 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (n = 18). Each black dot represents one animal. **p < 0.01, and ***p < 0.001 by Wilcoxon signed-rank test comparing context only and context + CS in each group, and the alternative hypothesis specifies that CR in context is not equal to CR in context with CS. Statistical results were as follows: W = 15, p = 0.008, effect size r = -0.66 in 6-month-old control; W = 0, p < 0.001, effect size r = -0.88 in 6-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup>; W = 25, p = 0.002, effect size r = -0.67 in 12-month-old control; W = 9, p = 0.002 , effect size r = -0.75 in 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup>

      [#14] (3) This is related to the second point above. If the question is about the memory processes underlying memory retrieval at the test following reinstatement, then I would argue that the model parameters that are not involved in testing this hypothesis be fixed prior to the test. Unlike the Gershman paper that the authors cited, the authors fit all parameters for each animal. Perhaps the authors should fit certain parameters on the acquisition and extinction phase, and then leave those parameters fixed for the reinstatement phase. To give a more concrete example, if the hypothesis is that AD mice have deficits in differentiating or retrieving latent states during reinstatement which results in the low response to the CS following reinstatement, then perhaps parameters such as the learning rate should be fixed at this point. The authors state that the 12-month-old AD mice have substantially lower learning rate measures (almost a 20-fold reduction!), which can be clearly seen in the very low weights attributed to the AD mouse in Figure 3D. Based on the example in Figure 3D, it seems that the reduced learning rate in these mice is most likely caused by the failure to respond at test. This is based on comparing the behavior in Figures 3C to 3D. The acquisition and extinction curves appear extremely similar across the two groups. It seems that this lower learning rate may indirectly be causing most of the other effects that the authors highlight, such as the low σx, and the changes to the parameters for the CR. It may even explain the extremely high K. Because the weights are so low, this would presumably lead to extremely low likelihoods in the posterior estimation, which I guess would lead to more latent states being considered as the posterior would be more influenced by the prior.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion about fitting and fixing certain parameters in different phases.

      However, this strategy may not be optimal for our study for the following scientific reasons.

      Our primary purpose is to explore internal states in the memory modification process that are associated with the deficit found in App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice in the reinstatement paradigm. We did not restrict the question to memory retrieval, nor did we have a particular hypothesis such that only a few parameters of interest account for the impaired associative learning or structure learning in App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice while all other parameters are comparable between groups. We are concerned that restricting questions to memory retrieval at the test is too parsimonious and might lead to misinterpretation of the results. As we explain in reply to comment #5, removing trials in extinction during parameter estimation reduces the model fit performance and runs the risk of overfitting within the individual. Therefore, we estimated all parameters for each animal, with the assumption that the estimated parameter set represents individual internal state (i.e., learning and memory characteristics) and should be fixed within the animal across all trials.  

      Figure 3 is the parameter estimation and simulation results using the median data of each group as an individual. The estimated parameter value is one of the possible cases in that group to demonstrate how a typical learning curve fits the latent cause model. The reviewer mentioned “20-fold reduction in learning rate” is the comparison of two data points, not the actual comparison between groups. The comparison between control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice in the 12-month-old group for all parameters was provided in Table S7. The Mann-Whitney U test did not reveal a significant difference in learning rate (η): 12-month-old control (Mdn = 0.09, IQR=0.23) vs. 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> (Mdn = 0.12, IQR=0.23), U = 199, p = 0.587.  

      We agree that lower learning rate could bias the learning toward inferring a new latent cause. However, this tendency may depend on the value of other parameters and varied in different phases in the reinstatement paradigm. Here, we used ⍺ as an example and demonstrate their interaction in Appendix 2 – table 2 with relatively extreme values: ⍺ \= {1, 3} and η \= {0.01, 0.5} while the rest of the parameters fixed at the initial guess value. 

      When ⍺ = 1, the number of latent causes across phases (K<sub>acq</sub>, K<sub>ext</sub>, K<sub>rem</sub>) remain unchanged and their posterior probability in test 3 were comparable even if η increased from 0.01 to 0.5. This is an example that lower η does not lead to inferring new latent causes because of low ⍺. The effect of low learning rate manifests in test 3 CR due to low w<sub>context, acq</sub> and w<sub>context, ext</sub>

      When ⍺ = 3, the number of acquisition latent causes (K<sub>acq</sub>) was higher in the case of η = 0.01 than that of η = 0.5, showing the effect mentioned by the reviewer. However, test 1 CR is much lower when η = 0.01, indicating unsuccessful learning even after inferring a new latent cause. This is none of the cases observed in this study. During extinction phases, the effect of η is surpassed by the effect of high ⍺, where the number of extinction latent causes (K<sub>ext</sub>) is high and not affected by η. After the extinction phases, the effect of K kicks in as the total number of latent causes reaches its value (K = 33 in this example), especially in the case of η = 0.01. A new latent cause is inferred after extinction in the condition of η = 0.5, but the CR 3 is still high as the w<sub>context, acq</sub> and w<sub>context, ext</sub> are high. This is an example that a new latent cause is inferred in spite of higher η

      Overall, the learning rate would not have a prominent effect alone throughout the reinstatement paradigm, and it has a joint effect with other parameters. Note that the example here did not cover our estimated results, as the estimated learning rate was not significantly different between control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (see above). Please refer to the reply to comment #31 for more discussion about the interaction among parameters when the learning rate is fixed. We hope this clarifies the reviewer’s concern.

      [#15] (4) Why didn't the authors use the latent causal model on the Barnes maze task? The authors mention in the discussion that different cognitive processes may be at play across the two tasks, yet reversal tasks have been suggested to be solved using latent states to be able to flip between the two different task states. In this way, it seems very fitting to use the latent cause model. Indeed, it may even be a better way to assess changes in σx as there are presumably 12 observable stimuli/locations.

      Please refer to our provisional response about the application of the latent cause model to the reversal Barnes maze task. Briefly, it would be difficult to directly apply the latent cause model to the Barnes maze data because this task involves operant learning, and thereby almost all conditions in the latent cause model are not satisfied. Please also see our reply to comment #24 for the discussion of the link between the latent cause model and Barnes maze task. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      [#16] (1) I had a bit of difficulty finding all the details of the model. First, I had to mainly rely on the Gershman 2017 paper to understand the model. Even then, there were certain aspects of the model that were not clear. For instance, it's not quite clear to me when the new internal states are created and how the maximum number of states is determined. After reading the authors' methods and the Gershman paper, it seems that a new internal state is generated at each time point, aka zt, and that the prior for that state decays onwards from alpha. Yet because most 'new' internal states don't ever take on much of a portion of the posterior, most of these states can be ignored. Is that a correct understanding? To state this another way, I interpret the equation on line 129 to indicate that the prior is determined by the power law for all existing internal states and that each new state starts with a value of alpha, yet I don't see the rule for creating a new state, or for iterating k other than that k iterates at each timestep. Yet this seems to not be consistent with the fact that the max number of states K is also a parameter fit. Please clarify this, or point me to where this is better defined.

      I find this to be an important question for the current paper as it is unclear to me when the states were created. Most notably, in Figure 3, it's important to understand why there's an increase in the posterior of z<sub>5</sub> in the AD 12-month mice at test. Is state z<sub>5</sub> generated at trial 5? If so, the prior would be extremely small by trial 36, making it even more perplexing why z<sub>5</sub> has such a high posterior. If its weights are similar to z<sub>3</sub> and z<sub>4</sub>, and they have been much more active recently, why would z<sub>5</sub> come into play?

      We assume that the “new internal state" the reviewer is referring to is the “new latent cause." We would like to clarify that “internal state" in our study refers to all the latent causes at a given time point and observation. As this manuscript is submitted as a Research Advance article in eLife, we did not rephrase all the model details. Here, we explain when a new latent cause is created (i.e., the prior probability of a new latent cause is greater than 0) with the example of the 12-month-old group (Figure 3C and 3D). 

      Suppose that before the start of each trial, an agent inferred the most likely latent cause with maximum posterior, and it inferred k latent causes so far. A new latent cause can be inferred at the computation of the prior of latent causes at the beginning of each trial.  

      In the latent cause model, it follows a distance-dependent Chinese Restaurant Process (CRP; Blei and Frazier, 2011). The prior of each old latent cause is its posterior probability, which is the final count of the EM update before the current. In addition, the prior of old latent causes is sensitive to the time passage so that it exponentially decreases as a forgetting function modulated by g (see Figure 2 in Gershman et al., 2017). Simultaneously, the prior of a new cause is assigned ⍺. The new latent cause is inferred at this moment. Hence, the prior of latent causes is jointly determined by ⍺, g and its posterior probability. The maximum number of latent causes K is set a priori and does not affect the prior while k < K (see also reply to comment #30 for the discussion of boundary set for K and comment #31 for the discussion of the interaction between ⍺ and K). Note that only one new latent cause can be inferred in each trial, and (k+1)<sup>th</sup> latent cause, which has never been inferred so far, is chosen as the new latent cause.

      In our manuscript, the subscript number in zₖ denotes the order in which they were inferred, not the trial number. In Figures 3C and 3D, z<sub>3</sub> and z<sub>4</sub> were inferred in trials 5 and 6 during extinction; z<sub>5</sub> is a new latent cause inferred in trial 36. Therefore, the prior of z<sub>5</sub> is not extremely small compared to z<sub>4</sub> and z<sub>3</sub>.

      In both control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice in the 12-month-old (Figures 3C and 3D), z<sub>3</sub> is dominant until trial 35. The unsignaled shock at trial 35 generates a large prediction error as only context is presented and followed by the US. This prediction error reduces posterior of z<sub>3</sub>, while increasing the posterior of z<sub>4</sub> and w<sub>context</sub> in z<sub>3</sub> and z<sub>4</sub>. This decrease of posterior of z<sub>3</sub> is more obvious in the App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> than in the control group, prompting them to infer a new latent cause z<sub>5</sub> (Figure 3C and 3D). Although Figure 3C and 3D are illustrative examples as we explained in the reply to comment #14, this interpretation would be plausible as the App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> group inferred a significantly larger number of latent causes after the extinction with slightly higher posteriors of them than those in the control group (Figure 4E).

      [#17] (2) Related to the above, Are the states z<sub>A</sub> and z<sub>B</sub> defined by the authors to help the reader group the states into acquisition and extinction states, or are they somehow grouped by the model? If the latter is true, I don't understand how this would occur based on the model. If the former, could the authors state that these states were grouped together by the author?

      We used z<sub>A</sub> and z<sub>B</sub> annotations to assist with the explanation, so this is not grouped by the model. We have stated this in the manuscript Line 181-182.

      [#18] (3) This expands on the third point above. In Figure 3D, internal states z<sub>3</sub>, z<sub>4</sub>, and z<sub>5</sub> appear to be pretty much identical in weights in the App group. It's not clear to me why then the posterior of z<sub>5</sub> would all of a sudden jump up. If I understand correctly, the posterior is the likelihood of the observations given the internal state (presumably this should be similar across z<sub>3</sub>, z<sub>4</sub>, and z<sub>5</sub>), multiplied by the prior of the state. Z3 and Z4 are the dominant inferred states up to state 36. Why would z<sub>5</sub> become more likely if there doesn't appear to be any error? I'm inferring no error because there are little or no changes in weights on trial 36, most prominently no changes inz<sub>3</sub> which is the dominant internal state in step 36. If there's little change in weights, or no errors, shouldn't the prior dominate the calculation of the posterior which would lead to z<sub>3</sub> and z<sub>4</sub> being most prominent at trial 36?

      We have explained how z<sub>5</sub> of the 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> was inferred in the reply to comment #16. Here, we explain the process underlying the rapid changes of the posterior of z<sub>3</sub>, z<sub>4</sub>, and z<sub>5</sub> from trial 35 to 36.

      During the extinction, the mice inferred z<sub>3</sub> given the CS and the context in the absence of US. In trial 35, they observed the context and the unsignaled shock in the absence of the CS. This reduced the likelihood for the CS under z<sub>3</sub> and thereby the posterior of z<sub>3</sub>, while relatively increasing the posterior of z<sub>4</sub>. The associative weight between the context and the US , w<sub>context</sub>, indeed increased in both z<sub>3</sub> and z<sub>4</sub>, but w<sub>context</sub> of z<sub>4</sub> was updated more than that of z<sub>3</sub> due to its higher posterior probability. At the beginning of trial 36, a new latent cause z<sub>5</sub> was inferred with a certain prior (see also the reply for comment #16), and w<sub>5</sub> = w<sub>0</sub>, where w<sub>0</sub> is the initial value of weight. After normalizing the prior over latent causes, the emergence of z<sub>5</sub> reduced the prior probability of other latent causes compared to the case where the prior of z<sub>5</sub> is 0. Since the CS was presented while the US was absent in trial 36, the likelihood of the CS and that of the US under z<sub>3</sub>, and especially z<sub>4</sub>, given the cues and w became lower than the case in which z<sub>5</sub> has not been inferred yet. Consequently, the posterior of z<sub>5</sub> became salient (Figure 3D).

      To maintain consistency across panels, we used a uniform y-axis range. However, we acknowledge that this may make it harder to notice the changes of associative weights in Figure 3D. We have provided the subpanel in Figure 3D with a smaller y-axis limit to reveal the weight changes at trial 35 in Author response image 5.

      Author response image 5.

      Magnified view of w<sub>context</sub> and wCS in the last 3 trials in Figure 3D. The graph format is the same as in Figure 3D. The weight for CS (w<sub>CS</sub>) and that for context (w<sub>context</sub>) in each latent cause across trial 34 (test 2), 35 (unsignaled shock), and 36 (test 3) in 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> in Figure 3D was magnified in the upper and lower magenta box, respectively.

      [#19] (8) In Figure 4B - The figure legend didn't appear to indicate at which time points the DIs are plotted.

      We have amended the figure legend to indicate that DI between test 3 and test 1 is plotted.

      [#20] (9) Lines 301-303 state that the posterior probabilities of the acquisition internal states in the 12month AD mice were much higher at test 1 and that this resulted in different levels of CR across the control and 12-month App group. This is shown in the Figure 4A supplement, but this is not apparent in Figure 3 panels C and D. Is the example shown in panel D not representative of the group? The CRs across the two examples in Figure 3 C and D look extremely similar at test 1. Furthermore, the posteriors of the internal states look pretty similar across the two groups for the first 4 trials. Both the App and control have substantial posterior probabilities for the acquisition period, I don't see any additional states at test 1. The pattern of states during acquisition looks strikingly similar across the two groups, whereas the weights of the stimuli are considerably different. I think it would help the authors to use an example that better represents what the authors are referring to, or provide data to illustrate the difference. Figure 4C partly shows this, but it's not very clear how strong the posteriors are for the 3rd state in the controls.

      Figure 3 serves as an example to explain the internal states in each group (see also the third paragraph in the reply to comment #14). Figure 4C to H showed the results from each sample for between-group comparison in selected features. Therefore, the results of direct comparisons of the parameter values and internal states between genotypes in Figure 3 are not necessarily the same as those in Figure 4. Both examples in Figure 3C and 3D inferred 2 latent causes during the acquisition. In terms of posterior till test 1 (trial 4), the two could be the same. However, such examples were not rare, as the proportion of the mice that inferred 2 latent causes during the acquisition was slightly lower than 50% in the control, and around 90% in the App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (Figure 4C). The posterior probability of acquisition latent cause in test 1 showed a similar pattern (Figure 4 – figure supplement 3), with values near 1 in around 50% of the control mice and around 90% of the App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice.  

      [#21] (10) Line 320: This is a confusing sentence. I think the authors are saying that because the App group inferred a new state during test 3, this would protect the weights of the 'extinction' state as compared to the controls since the strength of the weight updates depends on the probability of the posterior.

      In order to address this, we have revised this sentence to “Such internal states in App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice would diverge the associative weight update from those in the control mice after extinction.” in the manuscript Line 349-351.

      [#22] (11) In lines 517-519 the authors address the difference in generalizing the occurrence of stimuli across the App and control groups. It states that App mice with lower alpha generalized observations to an old cause rather than attributing it as a new state. Going back to statement 3 above, I think it's important to show that the model fit of a reduction in alpha does not go hand-in-hand with a reduction in the learning rates and hence the weights. Again, if the likelihoods are diminished due to the low weights, then the fit of alpha might be reduced as well. To reiterate my point above, if the observations in changes in generalization and differentiation occur because of a reduction in the learning rate, the modeling may not be providing a particularly insightful understanding of AD, other than that poor learning leads to ineffectual generalization and differentiation. Do these findings hold up if the learning rates are more comparable across the control and App group?

      These findings were explained on the basis of comparable learning rates between control and App<sup>NL-GF</sup> mice in the 12-month-old group (see the reply to comment #14). In addition, we have conducted simulation for different ⍺ and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> values under the condition of the fixed learning rate, where overgeneralization and overdifferentaiton still occurred (see the reply to comment #26).  

      [#23] (12) Lines 391 - 393. This is a confusing sentence. "These results suggest that App NL-G-F mice could successfully form a spatial memory of the target hole, while the memory was less likely to be retrieved by a novel observation such as the absence of the escape box under the target hole at the probe test 1." The App mice show improved behavior across days of approaching the correct hole. Is this statement suggesting that once they've approached the target hole, the lack of the escape box leads to a reduction in the retention of that memory?

      We speculated that when the mice observed the absence of the escape box, a certain prediction error would be generated, which may have driven the memory modification. In App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice, such modification, either overgeneralization or overdifferentiation, could render the memory of the target hole vulnerable; if overgeneralization occurred, the memory would be quickly overwritten as the goal no longer exists in this position in this maze, while if overdifferentiation occurred, a novel memory such that the goal does not exist in the maze different from previous one would be formed. In either case of misclassification, the probability of retrieving the goal position would be reduced. To reduce ambiguity in this sentence, we have revised the description in the manuscript Line 432-434 as follows: “These results suggest that App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice could successfully form a spatial memory of the target hole, while they did not retrieve the spatial memory of the target hole as strongly as control mice when they observed the absence of the escape box during the probe test.”

      [#24] (13) The connection between the results of Barnes maze and the fear learning paradigm is weak. How can changes in overgeneralization due to a reduction in the creation of inferred states and differentiation due to a reduced σx lead to the observations in the Barnes maze experiment?

      We extrapolated our interpretation in the reinstatement modeling to behaviors in a different behavioral task, to explore the explanatory power of the latent cause framework formalizing mechanisms of associative learning and memory modification. Here, we explain the results of the reversal Barnes maze paradigm in terms of the latent cause model, while conferring the reinstatement paradigm.

      Whilst we acknowledge that fear conditioning and spatial learning are not fully comparable, the reversal Barnes maze paradigm used in our study shares several key learning components with the reinstatement paradigm. 

      First, associative learning is fundamental in spatial learning (Leising & Blaisdell, 2009; Pearce, 2009). Although we did not make any specific assumptions of what kind of associations were learned in the Barnes maze, performance improvements in learning phases likely reflect trial-and-error updates of these associations involving sensory preconditioning or secondary conditioning. Second, the reversal training phases could resemble the extinction phase in the reinstatement paradigm, challenge previously established memory. In terms of the latent cause model, both the reversal learning phase in the reversal Barnes maze paradigm and the extinction phase in the reinstatement paradigm induce a mismatch of the internal state. This process likely introduces large prediction errors, triggering memory modification to reconcile competing memories.  

      Under the latent cause framework, we posit that the mice would either infer new memories or modify existing memories for the unexpected observations in the Barnes maze (e.g., changed location or absence of escape box) as in the reinstatement paradigm, but learn a larger number of association rules between stimuli in the maze compared to those in the reinstatement. In the reversal Barnes maze paradigm, the animals would infer that a latent cause generates the stimuli in the maze at certain associative weights in each trial, and would adjust behavior by retaining competing memories.

      Both overgeneralization and overdifferentiation could explain the lower exploration time of the target hole in the App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice in probe test 1. In the case of overgeneralization, the mice would overwrite the existing spatial memory of the target hole with a memory that the escape box is absent. In the case of overdifferentiation, the mice would infer a new memory such that the goal does not exist in the novel field, in addition to the old memory where the goal exists in the previous field. In both cases, the App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice would not infer that the location of the goal is fixed at a particular point and failed to retain competing spatial memories of the goal, leading to relying on a less precise, non-spatial strategy to solve the task.  

      Since there is no established way to formalize the Barnes maze learning in the latent cause model, we did not directly apply the latent cause model to the Barnes maze data. Instead, we used the view above to explore common processes in memory modification between the reinstatement and the Barnes maze paradigm. 

      The above description was added to the manuscript on page 13 (Line 410-414) and page 19-20 (Line 600-602, 626-639).

      [#25] (14) In the fear conditioning task, it may be valuable to separate responding to the context and the cue at the time of the final test. The mice can learn about the context during the reinstatement, but there must be an inference to the cue as it's not present during the reinstatement phase. This would provide an opportunity for the model to perhaps access a prior state that was formed during acquisition. This would be more in line with the original proposal by Gershman et al. 2017 with spontaneous recovery.

      Please refer to the reply to comment #13 regarding separating the response to context in test 3.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper seeks to identify underlying mechanisms contributing to memory deficits observed in Alzheimer's disease (AD) mouse models. By understanding these mechanisms, they hope to uncover insights into subtle cognitive changes early in AD to inform interventions for early-stage decline.

      Strengths:

      The paper provides a comprehensive exploration of memory deficits in an AD mouse model, covering the early and late stages of the disease. The experimental design was robust, confirming age-dependent increases in Aβ plaque accumulation in the AD model mice and using multiple behavior tasks that collectively highlighted difficulties in maintaining multiple competing memory cues, with deficits most pronounced in older mice.

      In the fear acquisition, extinction, and reinstatement task, AD model mice exhibited a significantly higher fear response after acquisition compared to controls, as well as a greater drop in fear response during reinstatement. These findings suggest that AD mice struggle to retain the fear memory associated with the conditioned stimulus, with the group differences being more pronounced in the older mice.

      In the reversal Barnes maze task, the AD model mice displayed a tendency to explore the maze perimeter rather than the two potential target holes, indicating a failure to integrate multiple memory cues into their strategy. This contrasted with the control mice, which used the more confirmatory strategy of focusing on the two target holes. Despite this, the AD mice were quicker to reach the target hole, suggesting that their impairments were specific to memory retrieval rather than basic task performance.

      The authors strengthened their findings by analyzing their data with a leading computational model, which describes how animals balance competing memories. They found that AD mice showed somewhat of a contradiction: a tendency to both treat trials as more alike than they are (lower α) and similar stimuli as more distinct than they are (lower σx) compared to controls.

      Weaknesses:

      While conceptually solid, the model struggles to fit the data and to support the key hypothesis about AD mice's ability to retain competing memories. These issues are evident in Figure 3:

      [#26] (1) The model misses key trends in the data, including the gradual learning of fear in all groups during acquisition, the absence of a fear response at the start of the experiment, the increase in fear at the start of day 2 of extinction (especially in controls), and the more rapid reinstatement of fear observed in older controls compared to acquisition.

      We acknowledge these limitations and explained why they arise in the latent cause model as follows.

      a. Absence of a fear response at the start of the experiment and the gradual learning of fear during acquisition 

      In the latent cause model, the CR is derived from a sigmoidal transformation from the predicted outcome with the assumption that its mapping to behavioral response may be nonlinear (see Equation 10 and section “Conditioned responding” in Gershman et al., 2017). 

      The magnitude of the unconditioned response (trial 1) is determined by w<sub>0</sub>, θ, and λ. An example was given in Appendix 2 – table 3. In general, a higher w<sub>0</sub> and a lower θ produce a higher trial 1 CR when other parameters are fixed. During the acquisition phase, once the expected shock exceeds θ, CR rapidly approaches 1, and further increases in expected shock produce few changes in CR. This rapid increase was also evident in the spontaneous recovery simulation (Figure 11) in Gershman et al. (2017). The steepness of this rapid increase is modulated by λ such that a higher value produces a shallower slope. This is a characteristic of the latent cause model, assuming CR follows a sigmoid function of expected shock, while the ordinal relationship over CRs is maintained with or without the sigmoid function, as Gershman et al. (2017) mentioned. If one assumes that the CR should be proportional to the expected shock, the model can reproduce the gradual response as a linear combination of w and posteriors of latent causes while omitting the sigmoid transformation (Figure 3). 

      b. Increase in fear at the start of day 2 extinction

      This point is partially reproduced by the latent cause model. As shown in Figure 3, trial 24 (the first trial of day 2 extinction) showed an increase in both posterior probability of latent cause retaining fear memory and the simulated CRs in all groups except the 6-month-old control group, though the increase in CR was small due to the sigmoid transformation (see above). This can be explained by the latent cause model as 24 h time lapse between extinction 1 and 2 decreases the prior of the previously inferred latent cause, leading to an increase of those of other latent causes. 

      Unlike other groups, the 6-month-old control did not exhibit increased observed CR at trial 24

      but at trial 25 (Figure 3A). The latent cause model failed to reproduce it, as there was no increase in posterior probability in trial 24 (Figure 3A). This could be partially explained by the low value of g, which counteracts the effect of the time interval between days: lower g keeps prior of the latent causes at the same level as those in the previous trial. Despite some failures in capturing this effect, our fitting policy was set to optimize prediction among the test trials given our primary purpose of explaining reinstatement.

      c. more rapid reinstatement of fear observed in older controls compared to acquisition

      We would like to point out that this was replicated by the latent cause model as shown in Figure 3 – figure supplement 1C. The DI between test 3 and test 1 calculated from the simulated CR was significantly higher in 12-month-old control than in App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (cf. Figure 2C to E).  

      [#27] (2) The model attributes the higher fear response in controls during reinstatement to a stronger association with the context from the unsignaled shock phase, rather than to any memory of the conditioned stimulus from acquisition. These issues lead to potential overinterpretation of the model parameters. The differences in α and σx are being used to make claims about cognitive processes (e.g., overgeneralization vs. overdifferentiation), but the model itself does not appear to capture these processes accurately. The authors could benefit from a model that better matches the data and that can capture the retention and recollection of a fear memory across phases.

      First, we would like to clarify that the latent cause model explains the reinstatement not only by the extinction latent cause with increased w<sub>context</sub> but also the acquisition latent cause with preserved wCS and w<sub>context</sub> (see also reply to comment #13). Second, the latent cause model primarily attributes the higher fear reinstatement in control to a lower number of latent causes inferred after extinction (Figure 4E) and higher w<sub>context</sub> in extinction latent cause (Figure 4G). We noted that there was a trend toward significance in the posterior probability of latent causes inferred after extinction (Figure 4E), which in turn influences those of acquisition latent causes. Although the posterior probability of acquisition latent cause appeared trivial and no significance was detected between control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (Figure 4C), it was suppressed by new latent causes in App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (Author response image 6).

      This indicates that App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice retrieved acquisition memory less strongly than control mice. Therefore, we argue that the latent cause model attributed a higher fear response in control during reinstatement not solely to the stronger association with the context but also to CS fear memory from acquisition. Although we tested whether additional models fit the reinstatement data in individual mice, these models did not satisfy our fitting criteria for many mice compared to the latent cause model (see also reply to comment #4 and #28).

      Author response image 6.

      Posterior probability of acquisition, extinction, and after extinction latent causes in test 3. The values within each bar indicate the mean posterior probability of acquisition latent cause (darkest shade), extinction latent cause (medium shade), and latent causes inferred after extinction (lightest shade) in test 3 over mice within genotype. Source data are the same as those used in Figure 4C–E (posterior of z).

      Conclusion:

      Overall, the data support the authors' hypothesis that AD model mice struggle to retain competing memories, with the effect becoming more pronounced with age. While I believe the right computational model could highlight these differences, the current model falls short in doing so.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      [#28] Other computational models may better capture the data. Ideally, I'd look for a model that can capture the gradual learning during acquisition, and, in some mice, the inferring of a new latent cause during extinction, allowing the fear memory to be retained and referenced at the start of day 2 extinction and during later tests.

      We have further evaluated another computational model, the latent state model, and compared it with the latent cause model. The simulation of reinstatement and parameter estimation method of the latent state model were described in the Appendix.

      The latent state model proposed by Cochran and Cisler (2019) shares several concepts with the latent cause model, and well replicates empirical data under certain conditions. We expect that it can also explain the reinstatement. 

      Following the same analysis flow for the latent cause model, we estimated the parameters and simulated reinstatement in the latent state model from individual CRs and median of them. In the median freezing rate data of the 12-month-old control mice, the simulated CR replicated the observed CR well and exhibited the ideal features that the reviewer looked for: gradual learning during acquisition and an increased fear at the start of the second-day extinction (Appendix 1 – figure 1G). However, a lot of samples did not fit well to the latent state model. The number of anomalies was generally higher than that in the latent cause model (Appendix 1 – figure 2). Within the accepted samples, the sum of squared prediction error in all trials was significantly lower in the latent state model, which resulted from lower prediction error in the acquisition trials (Appendix 1 – figure 4A and 4B). In the three test trials, the squared prediction error was comparable between the latent state model and the latent cause model except for the test 2 trials in the control group (Appendix 1 – figure 4A and 4B, rightmost panel). On the other hand, almost all accepted samples continued to infer the acquisition latent states during extinction without inferring new states (Appendix 1 – figure 5B and 5E, left panel), which differed from the ideal internal states the reviewer expected. While the latent state model fit performance seems to be better than the latent cause model, the accepted samples cannot reproduce the lower DI between test 3 and test 1 in aged App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice (Appendix 1 – figure 6C). These results make the latent state model less suitable for our purpose and therefore we decided to stay with the latent cause model. It should also be noted that we did not explore all parameter spaces of the latent state model hence we cannot rule out the possibility that alternative parameter sets could provide a better fit and explain the memory modification process well. A more comprehensive parameter search in the LSM may be a valuable direction for future research.

      If you decide not to go with a new model, my preference would be to drop the current modeling. However, if you wish to stay with the current model, I'd like to see justification or acknowledgment of the following:

      [#29] (1) Lower bound on alpha of 1: This forces the model to infer new latent causes, but it seems that some mice, especially younger AD mice, might rely more on classical associative learning (e.g., Rescorla-Wagner) rather than inferring new causes.

      We acknowledge that the default value set in Gershman et al. (2017) is 0.1, and the constraint we set is a much higher value. However, ⍺ = 1 does not always force the model to infer new latent causes.

      In the standard form Chinese restaurant process (CRP), the prior that n<sup>th</sup> observation is assigned to a new cluster is given by ⍺ / (n - 1 + ⍺) (Blei & Gershman, 2012). When ⍺ = 1, the prior of the new cluster for the 2nd observation will be 0.5; when ⍺ = 3, this prior increases to 0.75. Thus, when ⍺ > 1, the prior of the new cluster is above chance early in the sequence, which may relate to the reviewer’s concern. However, this effect diminishes as the number of observations increases. For instance, the prior of the new cluster drops to 0.1 and 0.25 for the 10th observation when ⍺ = 1 and 3, respectively. Furthermore, the prior in the latent cause model is governed by not only α but also g, a scaling parameter for the temporal difference between successive observations (see Results in the manuscript) following “distance-dependent” CRP, then normalized over all latent causes including a new latent cause. Thus, it does not necessarily imply that ⍺ greater than 1 forces agents to infer a new latent cause_. As shown in Appendix 2 – table 4, the number of latent causes does not inflate in each trial when _α = 1. On the other hand, the high number of latent causes due to α = 2 can be suppressed when g = 0.01. More importantly, the driving force is the prediction error generated in each trial (see also comment #31 about the interaction between ⍺ and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup>). Raising the value of ⍺ per se can be viewed as increasing the probability to infer a new latent cause, not forcing the model to do so by higher α alone. 

      During parameter exploration using the median behavioral data under a wider range of ⍺ with a lower boundary at 0.1, the estimated value eventually exceeded 1. Therefore, we set the lower bound of ⍺ to be 1 is to reduce inefficient sampling. 

      [#30] (2) Number of latent causes: Some mice infer nearly as many latent causes as trials, which seems unrealistic.

      We set the upper boundary for the maximum number of latent causes (K) to be 36 to align with the infinite features of CRP. This allowed some mice to infer more than 20 latent causes in total. When we checked the learning curves in these mice, we found that they largely fluctuated or did not show clear decreases during the extinction (Author response image 7, colored lines). The simulated learning curves were almost flat in these trials (Author response image 7, gray lines). It might be difficult to estimate the internal states of such atypical mice if the sampling process tried to fit them by increasing the number of latent causes. Nevertheless, most of the samples have a reasonable total number of latent causes: 12-month-old control mice, Mdn = 5, IQR = 4; 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice, Mdn = 5, IQR = 1.75; 6-month-old control mice, Mdn = 7, IQR = 12.5; 6-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice, Mdn = 5, IQR = 5.25. These data were provided in Tables S9 and S12.  

      Author response image 7.

      Samples with a high number of latent causes. Observed CR (colored line) and simulated CR (gray line) for individual samples with a total number of inferred latent causes exceeding 20. 

      [#31] (3) Parameter estimation: With 10 parameters fitting one-dimensional curves, many parameters (e.g., α and σx) are likely highly correlated and poorly identified. Consider presenting scatter plots of the parameters (e.g., α vs σx) in the Supplement.

      We have provided the scatter plots with a correlation matrix in Figure 4 – figure supplement 1 for the 12-month-old group and Figure 5 – figure supplement 1 for the 6-month-old group. As pointed out by the reviewer, there are significant rank correlations between parameters including ⍺ and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> in both the 6 and 12-month-old groups. However, we also noted that there are no obvious linear relationships between the parameters.

      The correlation above raises a potential problem of non-identifiability among parameters. First, we computed the variance inflation index (VIF) for all parameters to examine the risk of multicollinearity, though we did not consider a linear regression between parameters and DI in this study. All VIF values were below the conventional threshold 10 (Appendix 2 – table 5), suggesting that severe multicollinearity is unlikely to bias our conclusions. Second, we have conducted the simulation with different combinations of ⍺, σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup>, and K to clarify their contribution to overgeneralization and overdifferentiation observed in the 12-month-old group. 

      In Appendix 2 – table 6, the values of ⍺ and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> were either their upper or lower boundary set in parameter estimation, while the value K was selected heuristically to demonstrate its effect. Given the observed positive correlation between alpha and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup>, and their negative correlation with K (Figure 4 - figure supplement 1), we consider the product of K \= {4, 35}, ⍺ \= {1, 3} and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> \= {0.01, 3}. Among these combinations, the representative condition for the control group is α = 3, σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> = 3, and that for the App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> group is α = 1, σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> = 0.01. In the latter condition, overgeneralization and overdifferentiation, which showed higher test 1 CR, lower number of acquisition latent causes (K<sub>acq</sub>), lower test 3 CR, lower DI between test 3 and test 1, and higher number of latent causes after extinction (K<sub>rem</sub>), was extremely induced. 

      We found conditions that fall outside of empirical correlation, such as ⍺ = 3, σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> = 0.01, also reproduced overgeneralization and overdifferentiation. Similarly, the combination, ⍺ = 1, σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> = 3, exhibited control-like behavior when K = 4 but shifted toward App<sup>NL-G-F</sup>-like behavior when K = 36. The effect of K was also evident when ⍺ = 3 and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> = 3, where K = 36 led to over-differentiation. We note that these conditions were artificially set and likely not representative of biologically plausible. These results underscore the non-identifiability concern raised by the reviewer. Therefore, we acknowledge that merely attributing overgeneralization to lower ⍺ or overdifferentiation to lower σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> may be overly reductive. Instead, these patterns likely arise from the joint effect of ⍺, σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup>, and K. We have revised the manuscript accordingly in Results and Discussion (page 11-13, 18-19).

      [#32] (4) Data normalization: Normalizing the data between 0 and 1 removes the interpretability of % freezing, making mice with large changes in freezing indistinguishable seem similar to mice with small changes.

      As we describe in our reply to comment #26, the conditioned response in the latent cause model was scaled between 0 and 1, and we assume 0 and 1 mean the minimal and maximal CR within each mouse, respectively. Furthermore, although we initially tried to fit simulated CRs to raw CRs, we found that the fitting level was low due to the individual difference in the degree of behavioral expression: some mice exhibited a larger range of CR, while others showed a narrower one. Thus, we decided to normalize the data. We agree that this processing will make the mice with high changes in freezing% indistinguishable from those with low changes. However, the freezing% changes within the mouse were preserved and did not affect the discrimination index.

      [#33] (5) Overlooking parameter differences: Differences in parameters, like w<sub>0</sub>, that didn't fit the hypothesis may have been ignored.

      Our initial hypothesis is that internal states were altered in App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice, and we did not have a specific hypothesis on which parameter would contribute to such a state. We mainly focus on the parameters (1) that are significantly different between control and App</sup>NL-G</sup>- mice and (2) that are significantly correlated to the empirical behavioral data, DI between test 3 and test 1. 

      In the 12-month-old group, besides ⍺ and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup>, w<sub>0</sub> and K showed marginal p-value in Mann-Whitney U test (Table S7) and moderate correlation with the DI (Table S8). While differences in K were already discussed in the manuscript, we did miss the point that w<sub>0</sub> could contribute to the differences in w between control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> (Figure 4G) in the previous manuscript. We explain the contribution of w<sub>0</sub> on the reinstatement results here. When other parameters are fixed, higher w<sub>0</sub> would lead to higher CR in test 3, because higher w<sub>0</sub> would allow increasing w<sub>context</sub> by the unsignaled shock, leading to reinstatement (Appendix 2 – table 7). It is likely that higher w<sub>0</sub> would be sampled through the parameter estimation in the 12-month-old control but not App<sup>NL-G-F</sup>. On the other hand, the number of latent causes is not sensitive to w<sub>0</sub> when other parameters were fixed at the initial guess value (Appendix 2 – table 1), suggesting w<sub>0</sub> has a small contribution to memory modification process. 

      Thus, we speculate that although the difference in w<sub>0</sub> between control and App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> mice may arise from the sampling process, resulting in a positive correlation with DI between test 3 and test 1, its contribution to diverged internal states would be smaller relative to α or σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup> as a wide range of w<sub>0</sub> has no effect on the number of latent causes (Appendix 2 – table 7). We have added the discussion of differences in w<sub>0</sub> in the 12-month-old group in manuscript Line 357-359.

      In the 6-month-old group, besides ⍺ and σ<sub>x</sub><sup>2</sup>, 𝜃 is significantly higher in the AD mice group (Table S10) but not correlated with the DI (Table S11). We have already discussed this point in the manuscript.  

      [#34] (6) Initial response: Higher initial responses in the model at the start of the experiment may reflect poor model fit.

      Please refer to our reply to comment #26 for our explanation of what contributes to high initial responses in the latent cause model.

      In addition, achieving a good fit for the acquisition CRs was not our primary purpose, as the response measured in the acquisition phase includes not only a conditioned response to the CS and context but also an unconditioned response to the novel stimuli (CS and US). This mixed response presumably increased the variance of the measured freezing rate over individuals, therefore we did not cover the results in the discussion.

      Rather, we favor models at least replicating the establishment of conditioning, extinction and reinstatement of fear memory in order to explain the memory modification process. As we mentioned in the reply for comment #4, alternative models, the latent state model and the Rescorla-Wagner model, failed to replicate the observation (cf. Figure 3 – figure supplement 1A-1C). Thus, we chose to stand on the latent cause model as it aligns better with the purpose of this study. 

      [#35] In addition, please be transparent if data is excluded, either during the fitting procedure or when performing one-way ANCOVA. Avoid discarding data when possible, but if necessary, provide clarity on the nature of excluded data (e.g., how many, why were they excluded, which group, etc?).

      We clarify the information of excluded data as follows. We had 25 mice for the 6-month-old control group, 26 mice for the 6-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> group, 29 mice for the 12-month-old control group, and 26 mice for the 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> group (Table S1). 

      Our first exclusion procedure was applied to the freezing rate data in the test phase. If the mouse had a freezing rate outside of the 1.5 IQR in any of the test phases, it is regarded as an outlier and removed from the analysis (see Statistical analysis in Materials and Methods). One mouse in the 6-month-old control group, one mouse in the 6-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> group, five mice in the 12-month-old control group, and two mice in the 12-month-old App<sup>NL-G-F</sup> group were excluded.

      Our second exclusion procedure was applied during the fitting and parameter estimation (see parameter estimation in Materials and Methods). We have provided the number of anomaly samples during parameter estimation in Appendix 1 – figure 2.   

      Lastly, we would like to state that all the sample sizes written in the figure legends do not include outliers detected through the exclusion procedure mentioned above.

      [#36] Finally, since several statistical tests were used and the differences are small, I suggest noting that multiple comparisons were not controlled for, so p-values should be interpreted cautiously.

      We have provided power analyses in Tables S21 and S22 with methods described in the manuscript (Line 897-898) and added a note that not all of the multiple comparisons were corrected for in the manuscript (Line 898-899).

      References cited in the response letter only 

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      Blei, D. M., & Frazier, P. I. (2011). Distance Dependent Chinese Restaurant Processes. Journal of Machine Learning Research, 12(74), 2461–2488.

      Cochran, A. L., & Cisler, J. M. (2019). A flexible and generalizable model of online latent-state learning. PLOS Computational Biology, 15(9), e1007331. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1007331

      Curiel Cid, R. E., Crocco, E. A., Duara, R., Vaillancourt, D., Asken, B., Armstrong, M. J., Adjouadi, M., Georgiou, M., Marsiske, M., Wang, W., Rosselli, M., Barker, W. W., Ortega, A., Hincapie, D., Gallardo, L., Alkharboush, F., DeKosky, S., Smith, G., & Loewenstein, D. A. (2024). Different aspects of failing to recover from proactive semantic interference predicts rate of progression from amnestic mild cognitive impairment to dementia. Frontiers in Aging Neuroscience, 16. https://doi.org/10.3389/fnagi.2024.1336008

      Giustino, T. F., Fitzgerald, P. J., Ressler, R. L., & Maren, S. (2019). Locus coeruleus toggles reciprocal prefrontal firing to reinstate fear. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 116(17), 8570–8575. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1814278116

      Gu, X., Wu, Y.-J., Zhang, Z., Zhu, J.-J., Wu, X.-R., Wang, Q., Yi, X., Lin, Z.-J., Jiao, Z.-H., Xu, M., Jiang, Q., Li, Y., Xu, N.-J., Zhu, M. X., Wang, L.-Y., Jiang, F., Xu, T.-L., & Li, W.-G. (2022). Dynamic tripartite construct of interregional engram circuits underlies forgetting of extinction memory. Molecular Psychiatry, 27(10), 4077–4091. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-022-01684-7

      Lacagnina, A. F., Brockway, E. T., Crovetti, C. R., Shue, F., McCarty, M. J., Sattler, K. P., Lim, S. C., Santos, S. L., Denny, C. A., & Drew, M. R. (2019). Distinct hippocampal engrams control extinction and relapse of fear memory. Nature Neuroscience, 22(5), 753–761. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41593-019-0361-z

      Loewenstein, D. A., Curiel, R. E., Greig, M. T., Bauer, R. M., Rosado, M., Bowers, D., Wicklund, M., Crocco, E., Pontecorvo, M., Joshi, A. D., Rodriguez, R., Barker, W. W., Hidalgo, J., & Duara, R. (2016). A Novel Cognitive Stress Test for the Detection of Preclinical Alzheimer’s Disease: Discriminative Properties and Relation to Amyloid Load. The American Journal of Geriatric Psychiatry : Official Journal of the American Association for Geriatric Psychiatry, 24(10), 804–813. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jagp.2016.02.056

      Loewenstein, D. A., Greig, M. T., Curiel, R., Rodriguez, R., Wicklund, M., Barker, W. W., Hidalgo, J., Rosado, M., & Duara, R. (2015). Proactive Semantic Interference Is Associated With Total and Regional Abnormal Amyloid Load in Non-Demented Community-Dwelling Elders: A Preliminary Study. The American Journal of Geriatric Psychiatry : Official Journal of the American Association for Geriatric Psychiatry, 23(12), 1276–1279. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jagp.2015.07.009

      Valles-Salgado, M., Gil-Moreno, M. J., Curiel Cid, R. E., Delgado-Á lvarez, A., Ortega-Madueño, I., Delgado-Alonso, C., Palacios-Sarmiento, M., López-Carbonero, J. I., Cárdenas, M. C., MatíasGuiu, J., Díez-Cirarda, M., Loewenstein, D. A., & Matias-Guiu, J. A. (2024). Detection of cerebrospinal fluid biomarkers changes of Alzheimer’s disease using a cognitive stress test in persons with subjective cognitive decline and mild cognitive impairment. Frontiers in Psychology, 15. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2024.1373541

      Zaki, Y., Mau, W., Cincotta, C., Monasterio, A., Odom, E., Doucette, E., Grella, S. L., Merfeld, E., Shpokayte, M., & Ramirez, S. (2022). Hippocampus and amygdala fear memory engrams reemerge after contextual fear relapse. Neuropsychopharmacology, 47(11), 1992–2001. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41386-022-01407-0

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1:

      The chosen classification scheme for aGPCRs may require reassessment and amendment by the authors in order to prevent confusion with previously issued classification attempts of this family. (…) Can the authors suggest another scheme (mind to avoid the subfamily IIX or the alternative ADGRA-G,L,V subfamily schemes of metazoan aGPCRs), and adapt their numbering throughout the text and all figures/supplementary figures/supplementary files?

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment and agree that a different nomenclature should be used for choanoflagellate aGPCRs to avoid possible confusion. We have now re-labeled the choanoflagellate aGPCR subfamilies, previously numbered from I to XIX, using alphabetical enumeration (from A to S). Changes have been made throughout the main text, in Figure 5, and in Supplementary Figures S6 and S7.

      line 10: The abbreviation 'GPCR-TKL/Ks' is not explained.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have now revised the text to explain the abbreviation:

      “Adhesion GPCRs and a class of GPCRs fused to kinases (the GPCR-TKL/Ks) are the most abundant GPCRs in choanoflagellates.”

      line 30: "7TM domain is diagnostic for GPCRs": strange wording. Use an alternative expression.

      We changed the wording to: 

      “A conserved seven transmembrane (7TM) domain is a hallmark of GPCRs, while the wide spectrum of extracellular and intracellular domains in some GPCRs reflects the diversification of the gene family and its functions (Schiöth and Lagerström 2008).”

      line 33: In the case of rhodopsins, not the GPCR (i.e., the apoprotein) responds directly to photons, but the retinal, which isomerises upon illumination.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this to our attention, and we have now removed mention of photons from the list of cues detected by GPCRs.

      “For example, the extracellular N-terminus and the three extracellular loops of the 7TM domain respond to a wide range of cues, including odorant molecules, peptides, amines, lipids, nucleotides, and other molecules (Yang et al. 2021).”

      line 111: What are "genome-enabled choanoflagellates"? Explain the term. As it stands, it doesn't make sense to me.

      We meant only to highlight that these two species have sequenced genomes. We have deleted the phrase “genome enabled.”

      “To assess the predictive power of our protein-detection pipeline, we then compared the new GPCR and cytosolic signaling component datasets from two choanoflagellates – Salpingoeca rosetta and Monosiga brevicollis – with previously published GPCR and downstream GPCR signaling component counts for these two species (Nordström et al. 2009a; Krishnan et al. 2012; De Mendoza et al. 2014; Krishnan et al. 2015; Lokits et al. 2018).”

      line 145: Please give a reasoning for the naming of each of the new families (e.g., RemiSens, Hidden Gold, GPCR-TLK/K, etc.) or at least the explanations of the acronyms/names early in the manuscript, even if they are discussed later in more detail.

      Thank you for identifying this as an area of confusion. While we feel that going into the rationale behind each of the names here would interrupt the flow of the manuscript, we have added a phrase encouraging readers to “hold that thought” with the hope that they can wait for the sections that specifically focus on each of these new GPCR families.

      “This left twelve new GPCR families that had not, to our knowledge, been previously detected in choanoflagellates: Rhodopsin, TMEM145, GPR180, TMEM87, GPR155, GPR157, and six additional GPCR families that appear to fall outside all previously characterized GPCR families in eukaryotes. For reasons that will be discussed further below, we have named these six new GPCR families “Rémi-Sans-Famille” (RSF), “Hidden Gold” (Hi-GOLD), GPCR-TKL/K, GPRch1, GPRch2, and GPRch3. (Fig. 1B; Table 1).”

      lines 297/298 and 2049: Rename tethered agonist "peptide" to "element". Synthetic peptides resembling the TA were used in experiments to test for the sufficiency of the TA for receptor activation, but because the naturally occurring TAs are part of the receptor protein, they are not peptides.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have revised the text as suggested.

      line 2026: I think the letters in the acronym "CMR" are mixed up and were intended to read "CRM".

      Good catch! We have corrected the text.

      line 2048: "diagnostic" again. Change to "tell-tale", "hallmark", or another similar descriptor.

      We have corrected the text accordingly.

      2058: Strike "motif" in order to avoid confusion with the now obsolete term "GPS motif", which entailed the five most C-terminal β-strands of GAIN subdomain B (not thus neither the full GAIN domain nor the GPS).

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have corrected the text.

      Figure 5: Did the authors also find homologs placed in the aGPCR family based on their 7TM domain sequence but lacking a GAIN domain similar to vertebrate ADGRA/GPR123, the only aGPCR known to lack a GAIN domain (10.1016/j.tips.2013.06.002)? Irrespective of the authors' findings or non-finding on that matter, please insert a note on this in the results text.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this interesting point to our attention. We have now added a new supplementary figure A in Fig. S9 to answer the reviewer's comment. We also modified the legend of Fig. S9  to take into account this change and uploaded a new supplementary data file 20 to support Fig. S9A. Finally, we revised the main text under the section “Adhesion GPCRs” as requested: 

      Lines 328-331: “ While the GAIN and aGPCR 7TM domains evolved before the origin of opisthokonts (Araç et al.2012; Krishnan et al. 2012; De Mendoza et al. 2014), we detected the fusion of these two domains into a single module (GAIN/7TM) in most, but not all, holozoan aGPCRs (Fig. 5D, Fig.S7B and S9A; Supplementary file 20; Prömel et al, 2013; Krishnan et al. 2014).

      Reviewer #2:

      While the study contributes several interesting observations, it does not radically revise the evolutionary history of the GPCR family. However, in an era increasingly concerned with the reproducibility of scientific findings, this is arguably a strength rather than a weakness. It is encouraging to see that previously established patterns largely hold, and that with expanded sampling and improved methods, new insights can be gained, especially at the level of specific GPCR subfamilies. Then, no functional follow-ups are provided in the model system Salpingoeca rosetta, but I am sure functional work on GPCRs in choanoflagellates is set to reveal very interesting molecular adaptations in the future.

      We agree with the reviewer and anticipate that this work will provide a useful resource to motivate the future functional characterization of GPCRs in choanoflagellates, other CRMs, as well as in metazoans.

      The GPCR-TKL fusion is a particularly interesting finding, especially given the presence of such sequences in sponges. This could potentially represent a synapomorphy shared between sponges and choanoflagellates, later lost in other animals. The authors mention that BLASTP searches using the kinase domain recover the sponge GPCR-TKLs, suggesting the fusion may be ancestral. It would be useful to include phylogenetic trees of both the GPCR and TKL domains to assess this possibility. The authors might also consider examining sponge genomes released by the DTOL project to increase representation from this group.

      We agree and thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now added the requested phylogenetic analyses to the new Figure S17, revised the supplementary files and Methods accordingly, and commented on these results in the main text under the section “GPCR-TKL/K and GPCR-TKs“.  

      Lines 579 – 589: “While no metazoan homologs were found when using the 7TM domain of choanoflagellate GPCR-TKs as queries, using the conserved tyrosine kinase domains as queries recovered GPCR-TKs in sponges but not in other metazoan lineages or other holozoans (Fig. S17E). To test whether GPCR-TKs in sponges and choanoflagellates are homologous, we performed phylogenetic analyses of their TK and 7TM domains (Fig. S17F and G). While the TK domains of GPCR-TKs from sponges and choanoflagellates formed a well-supported clade, their 7TM domains did not. These results point to a heterogeneous evolutionary history that may include domain swapping (i.e. ancestral GPCR-TKs in which the 7TM domain was replaced in either the sponge or choanoflagellate lineages) or convergent evolution, in which homologous 7TM domains fused with unrelated 7TM domains in the sponge and choanoflagellate lineages.”

      Added to the Method section “Sequence alignment and phylogenetic analyses”:

      Lines 913 – 933: “Phylogenetic analyses of holozoan aGPCRs, Glutamate Receptors, and Gα subunits, and the 7TM and Kinase domains from GPCR TK/TKL/Ks were performed in this study. (…) To construct the phylogenies of the Kinase domain and 7TM domain from the GPCR TK/TKL/Ks, we first built a dataset including all the GPCR TK/TKL/Ks sequences identified in choanoflagellates and in sponges, as well as the GPCR TKL/Ks previously published in oomycetes and amoebozoans (Van Den Hoogen et al. 2018). We extracted the 7TM domain and Kinase domain from each sequence by combining the transmembrane domain prediction tool TMHMM-2.0 and the protein domain prediction tool InterProScan with the alignment tool MAFFT (E-INS-I algorithm) on Geneious Prime v2024.07 (Supplementary Files 30 and 32). We then aligned the aGPCR, Glutamate and Glutamate GPCR TK/TKL/K Receptor 7TMs, the GPCR TK/TKL/Ks Kinase domain, or the full-length Gα sequences using MAFFT with the E-INS-I algorithm. The resulting alignments were then used for Maximum-likelihood and/or Bayesian inference of phylogenies (Fig. 3B, Fig. 5A, Fig. S3D, and Fig. S6A, and Fig. S17F and G; Supplementary Files 5, 9, 16,18, 31, and 33).”

      Rhodopsin-like receptors are proposed in the discussion to be potential cases of lateral gene transfer (LGT) between eukaryotes. To support or refute this hypothesis, it would be valuable to place the choanoflagellate and ichthyosporean Rhodopsins within a broader phylogeny of this family, including (a few) representatives from animals and other eukaryotes. Even if deep branching relationships remain unresolved, signs such as unusually short branches could point toward recent LGT events.

      Thank you for your suggestion. While we originally considered testing these alternative hypotheses in this manuscript by building a phylogeny, the rapid sequence evolution of the Rhodopsin family has stymied similar efforts in the past and instead motivated others to use clustering approaches like those used in our study (Hu et al. 2017; Thiel et al. 2023). Unfortunately, these types of analyses cannot be used to readily identify instances of LGT.

      Therefore, following the suggestion of the reviewer, we bit the bullet and performed phylogenetic analyses on the sequences in question. Unfortunately, these analyses were completely inconclusive, and we feel they do not warrant inclusion in the manuscript. The topologies of the sequence trees recovered were poorly supported and sensitive to most of the variables we tested – the set of rhodopsin sequences included, the multiple alignment algorithms used, and the probabilistic methods employed to infer the phylogenies. 

      Instead, we have revised the manuscript to highlight the challenge of differentiating between the different hypotheses that are consistent with the phylogenetic distribution of Rhodopsins:

      Lines 670 – 678: “Thus, while it is formally possible that Rhodopsins existed in stem choanoflagellates and were lost in most modern choanoflagellate lineages, either horizontal gene transfer or convergent evolution in the shared ancestor of S. macrocollata and S. punica are similarly plausible explanations for their presence in these species. Differentiating between these alternative evolutionary scenarios is challenging because of rapid rate of sequence evolution within the family and the resultant loss of phylogenetic signal. Our own preliminary investigations of Rhodopsin evolution in non-metazoans were inconclusive. Therefore, ambiguities about the provenance and function of CRM Rhodopsins currently obscure the ancestry of metazoan Rhodopsins and opsins.”

      While the study surveys most available holozoan genomes, it appears that the genomes of Amoebidium spp.-which are cited in the manuscript- were not included. It may not be necessary to repeat all analyses with these two species (A. appalachense and A. parasiticum), but a preliminary search indicates the presence of four candidate 7tm_1 (Rhodopsin-like) proteins in their proteomes. These may warrant closer inspection (e.g., via BLASTP against animal databases) to confirm whether they are genuine GPCRs or false positives.

      Author response image 1.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing these sequences to our attention. To be clear, we did not analyze the Amoebidium spp. genome and we can find no reference to it in our manuscript. If the reviewer had the impression that the genome was analyzed, we would be grateful to know the source of the confusion so that it can be corrected. (We did not intentionally exclude the genome; it simply was not available on the Multicell Genome database from which we retrieved the ichthyosporean genomes and transcriptomes used in this study.)

      Nevertheless, out of curiosity, we have now analyzed the sequences provided by the reviewer and summarize our findings here for the interest of the reviewer. Although the sequences were annotated as 7tm_1 (Rhodopsin-like) proteins in the original genome study, none of these sequences group with metazoan or choanoflagellate Rhodopsins in our clustering analysis; instead, we found that these putative GPCRs form a distinct cluster that only weakly resembles cAMP receptors, both on the basis of their sequence and predicted structures. 

      It is not surprising to find new GPCR clusters as new taxa are folded into the study, and these Amoebidium sequences do not add to our understanding of Rhodopsin evolution. Therefore, we have not added their analysis to the manuscript, but we hope the reviewer finds our quick analysis of interest.

      Author response image 2.

      In Figure 2, perhaps expanding the other holozoan clades would have been nice, as there are not too many species, but I understand if that's beyond the point of the manuscript, focused on choanoflagellates.

      Thank you for this comment. However, given the focus of this study, we feel that an expansion of the other holozoan clades would reduce the clarity of the figure.

      line 87 - "To this end, the 671 validated choanoflagellate GPCRs were sorted by sequence similarity, resulting in 18 clusters. "Some details in the results section would be nice, or at least clear references to where this is explained in more detail. How were the extra choanoflagellate GPCRs added if they failed to be identified with quite sensitive HMM profiles?

      We apologize for the possible confusion and thank the reviewer for the suggestion; we have now added specific references to the related sections from the material and methods for interested readers.

      We believe that the "extra choanoflagellate GPCRs" mentioned by the reviewer refer to the choanoflagellate GPCRs that failed to be detected when the choanoflagellate genomes and transcriptomes were searched with the predominantly metazoan-derived GPCRHMM and HMMs from the GPCR_A Pfam clan (CL0192). We were able to recover these extra choanoflagellate GPCRs by using custom choanoflagellate-specific GPCR HMMs and by blasting the choanoflagellate GPCRs previously identified as queries against the 23 choanoflagellate proteomes. We hope that the referencing of the Methods section "Recovering additional choanoflagellate GPCRs using choanoflagellate GPCR BLAST queries and custom choanoflagellate GPCR HMMs", in lines 91 and 93, will help clarify this point.

      line 108 - Well, from the figure it seems that most eukaryotes have an 'animal-like' G protein signalling, so that's perhaps more of an eukaryotic signature than something that puts choanoflagellates and animals together.

      Excellent point! We have revised the text.

      line 132 - It is unclear what the criteria are to include these taxa as helpers for choanoflagellate classification, and not adding the other unicellular holozoans. Just some text justification could help.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have added an explanation of the rationale to the methods — section “Clustering of the 918 validated choanoflagellate GPCRs” — and referred to it in the main text.

      New text added to methods:

      “The non-choanoflagellate sequences added to the dataset were either top blast hits recovered after searching the entire Eukprot v3 dataset (993 species) with choanoflagellate GPCRs as queries, or previously published and well-documented GPCR sequences from metazoans.”

      line 145 - These families are listed, but perhaps it would be nice to explicitly mention that they will be covered in more detail later on in the manuscript. I found myself wondering about those exotic names, until I reached the sections in the manuscript where they are explained.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have now modified our sentence to refer to the related sections.

      “For reasons that will be discussed further below, we have named these six new GPCR families “Rémi-Sans-Famille” (RSF), “Hidden Gold” (Hi-GOLD), GPCR-TKL/K, GPRch1, GPRch2, and GPRch3. (Fig. 1B; Table 1).”

      line 199 - perhaps would be nice to explain domain architecture of validated Dictyostelium GABA-like receptors (ANF domain?).

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have now modified the sentence to mention the protein domain composition of the validated GABA-like receptor, GrlE, in Dictyostelium.

      “The Glutamate Receptors from the amoebozan Dictyostelium discoideum, of which at least one, GrlE, binds both GABA and Glutamate presumably through its conserved ANF domain (Anjard and Loomis 2006; Taniura et al. 2006; Wu and Janetopoulos 2013), grouped separately from metazoan and CRM GPCRs in our analysis.”

      Figure S4 - Perhaps a stacked bar chart would be easier to browse than a bunch of pie charts, notoriously difficult to quantify.

      Thank you for this comment. Opinions differ on how best on whether pie charts or bar charts are more effective in this context (including between the authors of this manuscript). However, we think the point of Figure S4 a minor point, only to be appreciated by a tiny number of readers, and therefore have left the data presentation as it was in the original submission.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Li et al. investigate Ca2+ signaling in T. gondii and argue that Ca2+ tunnels through the ER to other organelles to fuel multiple aspects of T. gondii biology. They focus in particular on TgSERCA as the presumed primary mechanism for ER Ca2+ filling. Although, when TgSERCA was knocked out there was still a Ca2+ release in response to TG present.

      Note that we did not generate a complete SERCA knockout, as this gene is essential, and its complete loss would not permit the isolation of viable parasites. Instead, we created conditional mutants that downregulate the expression of SERCA. Importantly, some residual activity is present in the mutant after 24 h of ATc treatment as shown in Fig 4C. This is consistent with our Western blots, which demonstrate the presence of residual SERCA protein at 1, 1.5 and 2 days post ATc treatment (Fig. 3B). We have clarified this point in the revised manuscript (lines 232233). See also lines 97-102.

      Overall the Ca2+ signaling data do not support the conclusion of Ca2+ tunneling through the ER to other organelles in fact they argue for direct Ca2+ uptake from the cytosol. The authors show EM membrane contact sites between the ER and other organelles, so Ca2+ released by the ER could presumably be taken up by other organelles but that is not ER Ca2+ tunneling. They clearly show that SERCA is required for T. gondii function.

      Overall, the data presented to not fully support the conclusions reached

      We agree that the data does not support Ca<sup>2+</sup> tunneling as defined and characterized in mammalian cells. In response to this comment, we have modified the title and the text accordingly.

      However, we respectfully would like to emphasize that the study demonstrates more than just the role of SERCA in T. gondii “function”. Our findings reveal that the ER, through SERCA activity, sequesters calcium following influx through the PM (see reviewer 2 comment). The ER calcium pool is important for replenishing other intracellular compartments.

      The experiments support a model in which the ER actively takes up cytosolic Ca²⁺ as it enters the parasite and contributes to intracellular Ca²⁺ redistribution during transitions between distinct extracellular calcium environments. We believe that the role of the ER in modulating intracellular calcium dynamics is demonstrated in Figures 1H–K, 4G-H, and 5H–K. To highlight the relevance of these findings, we have included an expanded discussion in the revised manuscript. See lines 443-449 and 510-522.

      Data argue for direct Ca2+ uptake from the cytosol

      The ER most likely takes up calcium from the cytosol following its entry through the PM and redistributes it to the other organelles. We deleted any mention of the word “tunneling” and replaced it with transfer and re-distribution as they reflect our experimental findings more accurately.

      We interpret the experiments shown in Figure 1 H and I as re-distribution because the amount of calcium released after nigericin or GPN are greatly enhanced after TG addition. We first add calcium to allow intracellular stores to become filled, followed by the addition of TG, which allows calcium leakage from the ER. This leaked calcium can either enter the cytosol and be pumped out or be taken up by other organelles. Our interpretation is that this process leads to an increased calcium content in acidic compartments.

      We conducted an additional experiment in which SERCA was inhibited prior to calcium addition, allowing cytosolic calcium to be exported or taken up by acidic stores. We observed a change in the GPN response (Fig. S2A), possibly indicating that the PLVAC can sequester calcium when SERCA is inactive. While this may support the reviewer’s view, TG treatment does not reflect physiological conditions and may enhance calcium transfer to other compartments. Although the result is interesting, interpretation is complicated by the use of parasites in suspension and drug exposure in solution. Single-parasite measurements are not feasible due to weak signals, and adhered parasites are even less physiological than those in suspension.

      In support of our view, the experiments shown in Figs 4G and H show that down regulating SERCA reduces significantly the response to GPN indicating diminished acidic store loading. In Fig 5I we observe that mitochondrial calcium uptake is reduced in the iDSERCA (+ATc) mutant in response to GPN. Fig 2B demonstrates that TgSERCA can take up calcium at 55 nM, close to resting cytosolic calcium while in Figures 5E and S5B we show that the mitochondrion is not responsive to an increase of cytosolic calcium. Uptake by the mitochondria requires much higher concentrations (Fig 5B-C), which may be achieved within microdomains at MCS between the ER and mitochondrion. This is also consistent with findings reported by Li et al (Nat Commun. 2021) where similar microdomains mediated transfer of calcium to the apicoplast (Fig. 7 E and F of the mentioned reference) was observed.

      Reviewer 2 (Public review):

      The role of the endoplasmic reticulum (ER) calcium pump TgSERCA in sequestering and redistributing calcium to other intracellular organelles following influx at the plasma membrane.

      T. gondii transitions through life cycle stages within and exterior to the host cells, with very different exposures to calcium, adds significance to the current investigation of the role of the ER in redistributing calcium following exposure to physiological levels of extracellular calcium

      They also use a conditional knockout of TgSERCA to investigate its role in ER calcium store-filling and the ability of other subcellular organelles to sequester and release calcium. These knockout experiments provide important evidence that ER calcium uptake plays a significant role in maintaining the filling state of other intracellular compartments.

      We thank the reviewer.

      While it is clearly demonstrated, and not surprising, that the addition of 1.8 mM extracellular CaCl2 to intact T. gondii parasites preincubated with EGTA leads to an increase in cytosolic calcium and subsequent enhanced loading of the ER and other intracellular compartments, there is a caveat to the quantitation of these increases in calcium loading. The authors rely on the amplitude of cytosolic free calcium increases in response to thapsigargin, GPN, nigericin, and CCCP, all measured with fura2. This likely overestimates the changes in calcium pool sizes because the buffering of free calcium in the cytosol is nonlinear, and fura2 (with a Kd of 100-200 nM) is a substantial, if not predominant, cytosolic calcium buffer. Indeed, the increases in signal noise at higher cytosolic calcium levels (e.g. peak calcium in Figure 1C) are indicative of fura2 ratio calculations approaching saturation of the indicator dye.

      We acknowledge the limitations associated with using Fura-2 for cytosolic calcium measurements. However, according to the literature (Grynkiewicz, Get al. (1985). J. Biol. Chem. 260 (6): 3440–3450. PMID 3838314) Fura-2 is suited for measurements between 100 nM and 1 µM calcium. The responses in our experiments were within that range and the experiments with the SERCA mutant and mitochondrial GCaMPfs supports the conclusions of our work.

      However, we agree with the reviewer that the experiment shown in Fig 1C (now Fig 1D) presents a response that approaches the limit of the linear range of Fura-2. In response to this, we have replaced this panel with a more representative experiment that remains within the linear range of the indicator (revised Fig 1D). Additionally, we have included new experiments adding GPN along with corresponding quantifications, which further support our conclusions regarding calcium dynamics in the parasite.

      Another caveat, not addressed, is that loading of fura2/AM can result in compartmentalized fura2, which might modify free calcium levels and calcium storage capacity in intracellular organelles.

      We are aware of the potential issue of Fura-2 compartmentalization, and our protocol was designed to minimize this effect. We load cells with Fura-2 for 26 min at room temperature, then maintain them on ice, and restrict the use of loaded parasites to 2-3 hours. We have observed evidence of compartmentalization as this is reflected in increasing concentrations of resting calcium with time. We carry out experiments within a time frame in which the resting calcium stays within the 100 nM range. We have included a sentence in the Materials and Methods section. Lines 604-606.

      Additionally, following this reviewer’s suggestion, we performed further experiments to directly assess compartmentalization. See below the full response to reviewer 2.

      The finding that the SERCA inhibitor cyclopiazonic acid (CPA) only mobilizes a fraction of the thapsigargin-sensitive calcium stores in T. gondii coincides with previously published work in another apicomplexan parasite, P. falciparum, showing that thapsigargin mobilizes calcium from both CPA-sensitive and CPA-insensitive calcium pools (Borges-Pereira et al., 2020, DOI: 10.1074/jbc.RA120.014906). It would be valuable to determine whether this reflects the off-target effects of thapsigargin or the differential sensitivity of TgSERCA to the two inhibitors.

      This is an interesting observation, and we now include a discussion of this result considering the Plasmodium study and include the citation. Lines 436-442.

      Figure S1 suggests differential sensitivity, and it shows that thapsigargin mobilizes calcium from both CPA-sensitive and CPA-insensitive calcium pools in T. gondii. Also important is that we used 1 µM TG as we are aware that TG has shown off-target effects at higher concentrations. TG is a well-characterized, irreversible SERCA inhibitor that ensures complete and sustained inhibition of SERCA activity. In contrast, CPA is a reversible inhibitor whose effectiveness is influenced by ATP levels, and it may only partially inhibit SERCA or dissociate over time, allowing residual Ca²⁺ reuptake into the ER.

      Additionally, as suggested by the reviewer we performed experiments using the Mag-Fluo-4 protocol to compare the inhibitory effects of CPA and TG. These results are presented in Fig. S3 (Lines 217-223). Under the conditions of the Mag-Fluo-4 assay with digitonin-permeabilized cells, both TG and CPA showed similar rates of Ca<sup>2+</sup> leakage following the addition of the inhibitor. This may indicate that under the conditions of the Mag-Fluo-4 experiments the rate of Ca<sup>2+</sup> leak is mostly determined by the intrinsic leak mechanism and not by the nature of the inhibitor. By contrast, in intact Fura-2–loaded cells, CPA induces a smaller cytosolic Ca²⁺ increase than TG, consistent with less efficient SERCA inhibition likely due to its reversibility and possibly incomplete inhibition under cellular conditions.

      The authors interpret the residual calcium mobilization response to Zaprinast observed after ATc knockdown of TgSERCA (Figures 4E, 4F) as indicative of a target calcium pool in addition to the ER. While this may well be correct, it appears from the description of this experiment that it was carried out using the same conditions as Figure 4A where TgSERCA activity was only reduced by about 50%.

      We partially agree with the reviewer that 50% knockdown of TgSERCA means that the ER may still be targeted by zaprinast, and that there is no definitive evidence of the involvement of another calcium pool. The Mag-Fluo-4 experiment, while we acknowledge that the fluorescence of MagFluo-4 is not linear to calcium, indicates that SERCA activity is present even after 24 hr of ATc treatment. However, when Zaprinast is added after TG, we observed a significant calcium release in wild type cells. This result suggests the presence of another large calcium pool than the one mobilized by TG (PMID: 2693306).

      We recently published work describing the Golgi as a calcium store in Toxoplasma (PMID: 40043955) and we showed in Fig. S4 D-G of that work, that GPN treatment of tachyzoites loaded with Fura-2 diminished the Zaprinast response indicating that they could be impacting a similar store. In the present study we performed additional experiments in which TG was followed by GPN and Zaprinast showing a similar pattern. GPN significantly diminished the Zaprinast response. These results are shown now in Figure S2B. We address these possibilities in the discussion and interpretation of the result. Lines 451-460.

      The data in Figures 4A vs 4G and Figures 4B vs 4H indicate that the size of the response to GPN is similar to that with thapsigargin in both the presence and absence of extracellular calcium. This raises the question of whether GPN is only releasing calcium from acidic compartments or whether it acts on the ER calcium stores, as previously suggested by Atakpa et al. 2019 DOI: 10.1242/jcs.223883. Nonetheless, Figure 1H shows that there is a robust calcium response to GPN after the addition of thapsigargin.

      The results of the indicated experiments did not exclude the possibility that GPN can also mobilize some calcium from the ER besides acidic organelles. We don’t have any evidence to support that GPN can mobilize calcium from the ER either. Based on our unpublished work, we think GPN mainly release calcium from the PLVAC. We included the mentioned citation and discuss the result considering the possibility that GPN may be acting on more than one store. Lines 451-460.

      An important advance in the current work is the use of state-of-the-art approaches with targeted genetically encoded calcium indicators (GECIs) to monitor calcium in important subcellular compartments. The authors have previously done this with the apicoplast, but now add the mitochondria to their repertoire. Despite the absence of a canonical mitochondrial calcium uniporter (MCU) in the Toxoplasma genome, the authors demonstrate the ability of T. gondii mitochondrial to accumulate calcium, albeit at high calcium concentrations. Although the calcium concentrations here are higher than needed for mammalian mitochondrial calcium uptake, there too calcium uptake requires calcium levels higher than those typically attained in the bulk cytosolic compartment. And just like in mammalian mitochondria, the current work shows that ER calcium release can elicit mitochondrial calcium loading even when other sources of elevated cytosolic calcium are ineffective, suggesting a role for ER-mitochondrial membrane contact sites. With these new tools in hand, it will be of great value to elucidate the bioenergetics and transport pathways associated with mitochondrial calcium accumulation in T. gondii.

      We thank this reviewer praising our work. Studies of bioenergetics and transport pathways associated with mitochondrial calcium accumulation is part of our future plans mentioned in lines 520-522 and 545.

      The current studies of calcium pools and their interactions with the ER and dependence on SERCA activity in T. gondi are complemented by super-resolution microscopy and electron microscopy that do indeed demonstrate the presence of close appositions between the ER and other organelles (see also videos). Thus, the work presented provides good evidence for the ER acting as the orchestrating organelle delivering calcium to other subcellular compartments through contact sites in T. gondi, as has become increasingly clear from work in other organisms.

      Thank you

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This manuscript describes an investigation of how intracellular calcium stores are regulated and provides evidence that is in line with the role of the SERCA-Ca2+ATPase in this important homeostasis pathway. Calcium uptake by mitochondria is further investigated and the authors suggest that ER-mitochondria membrane contact sites may be involved in mediating this, as demonstrated in other organisms.

      The significance of the findings is in shedding light on key elements within the mechanism of calcium storage and regulation/homeostasis in the medically important parasite Toxoplasma gondii whose ability to infect and cause disease critically relies on calcium signalling. An important strength is that despite its importance, calcium homeostasis in Toxoplasma is understudied and not well understood.

      We agree with the reviewer. Thank you

      A difficulty in the field, and a weakness of the work, is that following calcium in the cell is technically challenging and thus requires reliance on artificial conditions. In this context, the main weakness of the manuscript is the extrapolation of data. The language used could be more careful, especially considering that the way to measure the ER calcium is highly artificial - for example utilising permeabilization and over-loading the experiment with calcium. Measures are also indirect - for example, when the response to ionomycin treatment was not fully in line with the suggested model the authors hypothesise that the result is likely affected by other storage, but there is no direct support for that.

      The Mag-Fluo-4-based protocol for measuring intraluminal calcium is well established and has been extensively used in mammalian cells, DT40 cells and other cells for measuring intraluminal calcium, activity of SERCA and response to IP3 (Some examples: PMID: 32179239, PMID: 15963563, PMID: 19668195, PMID: 30185837, PMID: 19920131).

      Furthermore, we have successfully employed this protocol in previous work, including the characterization of the Trypanosoma brucei IP3R (PMID: 23319604) and the assessment of SERCA activity in Toxoplasma (PMID: 40043955 and 34608145). The citation PMID: 32179239 provides a detailed description of the protocol, including references to its prior use. In addition, the schematic at the top of Figure 2 summarizes the experimental workflow, reinforcing that the protocol follows established methodologies. We included more references and an expanded discussion, lines 425-435.

      We respectfully disagree with the concern regarding potential calcium overloading. The cells used in our assays were permeabilized, which is a critical step that allows to precisely control calcium concentrations. All experiments were conducted at 220 nM free calcium, a concentration within the physiological range of cytosolic calcium fluctuations. This concentration was consistently used across all studies described above. Importantly, permeabilization ensures that the dye present in the cytosol becomes diluted, and allows MgATP (which cannot cross intact membranes) to access the ER membrane, in addition to be able to expose the ER to precise calcium concentrations.

      The Mag-Fluo-4 loading conditions are designed to allow compartmentalization of the indicator to all intracellular compartments and the calcium uptake stimulated by MgATP exclusively occurs in the compartment occupied by SERCA as only SERCA is responsive to MgATP-dependent transport in this experimental setup

      Regarding the use of IO, we would like to clarify that its broad-spectrum activity is welldocumented. As a calcium ionophore, IO facilitates calcium release across multiple membranes, and not just the ER leading to a more substantial calcium release compared to the more selective effect of TG. The results observed with IO were consistent with this expected broader activity and support our interpretation.

      Lastly, we emphasize that the experiment in Figure 2 was designed specifically to assess SERCA activity in situ under defined conditions. It was not intended to provide a comprehensive characterization of the role of TgSERCA in the parasite. We now clarify this distinction in the revised Discussion lines 425-435.

      Below we provide some suggestions to improve controls, however, even with those included, we would still be in favour of revising the language and trying to avoid making strong and definitive conclusions. For example, in the discussion perhaps replace "showed" with "provide evidence that are consistent with..."; replace or remove words like "efficiently" and "impressive"; revise the definitive language used in the last few lines of the abstract (lines 13-17); etc. Importantly we recommend reconsidering whether the data is sufficiently direct and unambiguous to justify the model proposed in Figure 7 (we are in favour of removing this figure at this early point of our understanding of the calcium dynamic between organelles in Toxoplasma).

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions and we modified the language as suggested. We limited the use of the word "showed" to references to previously published work. We deleted the other words

      Figure 7 is intended as a conceptual model to summarize our proposed pathways, and, like all models, it represents a working hypothesis that may not fully capture the complexity of calcium dynamics in the parasite. In light of the reviewer’s comments, we revised the figure and legend to clearly distinguish between pathways for which there is experimental evidence from those that are hypothetical.

      Another important weakness is poor referencing of previous work in the field. Lines 248250 read almost as if the authors originally hypothesised the idea that calcium is shuttled between ER and mitochondria via membrane contact sites (MCS) - but there is extensive literature on other eukaryotes which should be first cited and discussed in this context. Likewise, the discussion of MCS in Toxoplasma does not include the body of work already published on this parasite by several groups. It is informative to discuss observations in light of what is already known.

      The sentence in which we state the hypothesis about the calcium transfer refers specifically to Toxoplasma. To clarify this, we have now added the phrase “In mammalian cells” (Line 311) and included additional citations, as suggested by the reviewer. While only a few studies have described membrane contact sites (MCSs) in Toxoplasma, we do cite several pertinent articles (e.g., lines 479-486). We believe that we cited all articles mentioning MCS in T. gondii

      However, we must clarify to the reviewer that the primary focus of our study is not to characterize or confirm the presence of MCSs in T. gondii, but rather to demonstrate functional calcium transfer between the ER and mitochondria. Our data support the conclusion that this transfer requires close apposition of these organelles, consistent with the presence of MCSs.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Line 45: change influx to release as Ca2+ influx usually referred to Ca2+ entry from the extracellular space. Same for line 71.

      Corrected, line 47 and 73

      (2) Line 54: consider toning down the strong statement of 'widely' accepted as ER Ca2+ subdomain heterogeneity remains somewhat debated.

      Changed the sentence to “it has been proposed”, Line 56

      (3) Line 119-21: A lower release in response to TG is typical and does not reflect TG specific for SERCA. It is due to the slow kinetics of Ca2+ leak out of the ER allowing other buffering and transport mechanisms to act. Also, could be a reflection of the duration after TG treatment to allow complete store depletion. Figure S1A-B shows that there is still Ca2+ in the stores following TG but the TG signal does not go back to baseline arguing that the leak is still active. Hence the current data does not address the specificity of TG for TgSERCA. Please revise the statement accordingly.

      Thank for the suggestion, we changed the sentence to this: “This result could reflect the slow kinetics of Ca²⁺ leak from the ER, allowing other buffering and transport mechanisms to mitigate the phenomenon. Alternatively, it may indicate the duration after TG treatment allowing time to complete store depletion. As shown in Figure S1A-B, residual Ca²⁺ remains in the stores after TG treatment, and the TG-induced phenomenon does not return to baseline, suggesting that the leak remains active”. Lines 124-128

      (4) Figure 1C: the authors interpret the data 'This Ca2+ influx appeared to be immediately taken up by the ER as the response to TG was much greater in parasites previously exposed to extracellular Ca2+'. I don't understand this interpretation, in Ca2+-containing solution it would expected to have a larger signal as TG is likely to activate store-operated Ca2+ entry which would contribute to a larger cytosolic Ca2+ transient. Does T. gondii have SOCE? It cannot be uptake into the ER as SERCA is blocked. Unless the authors are arguing for another ER Ca2+ uptake pathway? But why are Ca2+ uptake in the ER would lower the signal whereas the data show an increased signal?

      We pre-incubated the suspension with calcium to allow filling of the stores, while SERCA is still active, and added thapsigargin (TG) at 400 seconds to measure calcium release. The experiment was designed to introduce the concept that the ER may have access to extracellular calcium, a phenomenon not yet clearly demonstrated in Toxoplasma. We did not expect to have less release by TG but if the ER is not efficient in filling after extracellular calcium entry it would be expected to have a similar response to TG. Yes, it is very possible that when we add TG we are also seeing more calcium entry through the PM as we previously proposed that the increased cytosolic Ca<sup>2+</sup> may regulate Ca<sup>2+</sup> entry. However, the evidence does not support that this increased entry would be triggered by store depletion. The experiments with the SERCA mutant (Fig. 4D) shows that in the conditional knockout mutant, the ER is partially depleted, yet this does not lead to enhanced calcium entry, suggesting that the depletion alone is not sufficient to trigger increased influx.

      There is no experimental evidence supporting the regulation of calcium entry by store depletion in Toxoplasma (PMID: 24867952). We revised the text to clarify this point and expanded the discussion on store-operated calcium entry (SOCE). While it is possible that a channel similar to Orai exists in Toxoplasma, it is highly unlikely to be regulated by store depletion, as there is no gene homologous to STIM. If store-regulated calcium entry does occur in Toxoplasma, it is likely mediated through a different, still unidentified, mechanism. Lines 461-467.

      (5) The choice of adding Ca2+ first followed by TG is curious as it is more difficult to interpret. Would be more informative to add TG, allow the leak to complete, and then add Ca2+ which would allow temporal separation between Ca2+ release from stores and Ca2+ influx from the extracellular space. Was this experiment done? If not would be useful to have the data.

      Yes, this experiment was already published: PMID: 24867952 and PMID: 38382669.

      It mainly highlighted that increased cytosolic calcium may regulate calcium entry most likely through a TRP channel. See our response to point 4 and the description of the new Fig. S2 in the response to point 7.

      (6) Line 136-39: these experiments as designed - partly because of the issues discussed above - do not address the ability of organelles to access extracellular Ca2+ or the state of refilling of intracellular Ca2+ stores. They can simply be interpreted as the different agents (TG, Nig, GPN, CCCP) inducing various levels of Ca2+ influx.

      Concerning TG, the experiment shown in Fig. 4D shows that depletion of the ER calcium does not result in stimulation of calcium entry, indicating the absence of classical SOCE activation in Toxoplasma.

      To our knowledge, neither mitochondria nor lysosomes (or other acidic compartments) are capable of triggering classical SOCE in mammalian cells.

      Given that the ER in Toxoplasma lacks the canonical components required to initiate SOCE, it is unclear why the mitochondria or acidic compartments would be able to do so. While it is possible that T. gondii utilizes an alternative mechanism for store-operated calcium entry, investigating such a pathway would require a comprehensive study. In mammalian systems, it took almost 15 years and the efforts of multiple research groups to identify the molecular components of SOCE. Expecting this complex question to be resolved within the scope of a single study is unrealistic.

      Our current data show that the mitochondrion is unable to access calcium from the cytosol, as shown in Figure 5E. Performing a similar experiment for the PLVAC would be ideal; however, expression of fluorescent calcium indicators in this organelle has not been successful. This is likely due to the presence of several proteases that degrade expressed proteins, as well as the acidic environment, which quenches fluorescence. These challenges have made studying calcium dynamics in the PLVAC particularly difficult.

      To address the reviewer’s comment, we performed an additional experiment presented in Fig. S2A. In this experiment, we first inhibited SERCA with thapsigargin (TG), preventing calcium uptake into the ER, and subsequently added calcium to the suspension. Under these conditions, calcium cannot be sequestered by the ER. We then applied GPN and quantified the response, comparing it to a similar experimental condition without TG. Indeed, under these conditions, we observed a significant but modest increase in the GPN-induced response, suggesting that the PLVAC may be capable of directly taking up calcium from the cytosol. However, this occurs under conditions of SERCA inhibition which creates nonphysiological conditions with elevated cytosolic calcium levels and the presence of TG may promote additional ER leakage, both of which could artificially enhance PLVAC uptake. Under physiological conditions, with functional SERCA activity, the ER would likely sequester cytosolic calcium more efficiently, thereby limiting calcium availability for PLVAC direct uptake. Thus, while the result is intriguing, it may not reflect calcium handling under normal cellular conditions. See lines 172-178.

      (7) Figure 1H-I: I disagree with the authors' interpretation of the results (lines 144-153). The data argue that by blocking ER Ca2+ uptake by TG, other organelles take up Ca2+ from the cytosol where it accumulates due to the leak and Ca2+ influx as is evident from the data allowing more release. The data does not argue for ER Ca2+ tunneling to other organelles. Tunneling would be reduced in the presence of TG (see PMID: 30046136, 24867608).

      We partially agree with this concern. In our experiments, TG was used to inhibit SERCA and block calcium uptake into the ER, allowing calcium to leak into the cytosol. We propose that this leaked calcium is subsequently taken up by other intracellular compartments. This effect is observed immediately upon TG addition. However, pre-incubation with TG or knockdown of SERCA reduces calcium storage in the ER, thereby diminishing the transfer of calcium to other stores.

      To further support our claim, we performed additional experiments in the absence of extracellular calcium, now presented in Figure 1J-K. We observed that calcium release triggered by GPN or nigericin was significantly enhanced when both agents were added after TG. These results suggest that calcium initially released from the ER can be sequestered by other compartments. As mentioned, we deleted any mention of “tunneling,” but we believe the data support the occurrence of calcium transfer. New results described in lines 166-171.

      The experiment in Fig S2A described in the response to (6) also addresses this concern. Under physiological conditions with functional SERCA, cytosolic calcium would likely be rapidly sequestered by the ER, limiting its availability to other compartments. See lines 172178.

      (8) Line 175: SERCA-dependent Ca2+ uptake is higher at 880 nM as would be expected yet the authors state that it's optimal at 220 nM Ca2+ ?

      Yes, it is true that the SERCA-dependent Ca<sup>2+</sup> uptake rate is higher at elevated Ca²⁺ concentrations. We chose to use 220 nM free calcium because of several reasons: 1) this concentration is close to physiological cytosolic levels fluctuations; 2) it is commonly used in studies of mammalian SERCA; and 3) calcium uptake is readily detectable at this level. While this may not represent the maximal activity conditions for SERCA, we believe it is a reasonable and physiologically relevant choice for assessing calcium transport activity SERCA-dependent. We added one sentence to the results explaining this reasoning (lines 204-207) and we deleted the word optimal.

      (9) Figure 3H: the saponin egress data support the conclusion that organelles Ca2+ take up cytosolic Ca2+ directly without the need for ER tunneling.

      The saponin concentration used permeabilizes the host cell membrane, allowing the intracellular tachyzoite to be surrounded with the added higher extracellular calcium concentration. The saponin concentration used does not affect the tachyzoite membrane as the parasite is still moving and calcium oscillations were clearly seen under similar conditions (PMID: 26374900 ). The resulting calcium increase in the tachyzoite cytosol is what stimulates parasite motility and egress. Since SERCA activity is reduced in the mutant, cytosolic calcium accumulates more rapidly, reaching the threshold for egress sooner and thereby accelerating parasite exit. The result does not support that the other stores contribute to this because of the Ionomycin response, which shows that egress is diminished in the mutant, likely because the calcium stores are depleted. We added an explanation in the results, lines 262-269 and the discussion, lines 532-539.

      (10) Figure S2: the HA and SERCA signals do not match perfectly? Could this reflect issues with HA tagging, potentially off-target effects? Was this tested?

      These are not off-target effects, as we did not observe them in the control cells lacking HA tagging. The HA signal also disappeared after treatment with ATc, further confirming that the IFA signal is specific. We agree with the reviewer that the signals do not align perfectly. This discrepancy could be due to differences in antibody accessibility or the fact that the two antibodies recognize different regions of the protein. We added a sentence about this in the result; lines 240-243.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The description of the data of Figures 1B and S1A starting on line 108 would be easier to follow if Figure S1A was actually incorporated into Figure 1. It is not clear why these two complementary experiments were separated since they are both equally important in understanding and interpreting the data.

      We re-arranged figure 1 and incorporated S1A now as Fig 1C.

      As noted in the public comments, loading of fura2/AM can result in compartmentalized fura2, which can contaminate the cytosolic calcium measurements and might modify free calcium levels and calcium storage capacity in intracellular organelles. This can be assessed using the digitonin permeabilization method used in the MagFluo4 measurements, but in this case, detecting the fura2 signal remaining after cell permeabilization.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we measured Fura-2 compartmentalization by permeabilizing cells with digitonin as we do for the Mag-Fluo-4 and the fluorescence was reduced almost completely and was unresponsive to any additions (see Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1.

      T. gondii tachyzoites in suspension exposed to Thapsigargin Calcium and GPN. The dashed lines shows and experiments using the same conditions but parasites were permeabilized with digitonin shows a similar experiment with parasites exposed to MgATP.to release the cytosolic Fura. Part B

      Following the public comment regarding the residual calcium mobilization response to Zaprinast observed after 24 h ATc knockdown of SERCA (Figsures 4E, 4F, as explained in the legend to Figure 4), was there still a response to Zaprinast after 48 h knockdown, where the thapsigargin response was apparently fully ablated?

      Unfortunately, we were unable to perform this experiment as it is not possible to obtain sufficient cells at 48 h with ATc. Due to the essential role of TgSERCA, parasites are unable to replicate after 24 h.

      As noted in the public comments, the data in Figure 4A vs 4G and Figure 4B vs 4H appear to show that the calcium responses to GPN are similar to that with thapsigargin, which seems unexpected if the acidic compartment is loaded from the ER. The results with GPN addition after thapsigargin (Figure 1H) argue against this, but the authors should still cite the work of Atakpa et al.

      We think that the reviewer is concerned that GPN may also be acting on the ER. This is a possibility that we considered, and we now included the suggested citation (line 457). However, we believe that it is difficult to directly compare the responses, as the kinetics of calcium release from the ER may differ from those of release from the PLVAC. This could be due to differences in the calcium buffering capacity between the two compartments. Additionally, it is possible that calcium leaked from the ER is more efficiently sequestered by other stores or extruded through the plasma membrane than calcium released from the PLVAC. Besides, GPN is known to have a more disruptive effect on membranes compared to TG, which may also influence their responses. As noted by the reviewer, Figure 1H also supports the idea that the acidic compartment is loaded from the ER.

      The abbreviation for the plant-like vacuolar compartment (PLVAC) only appears in a figure legend but should be defined in the main text on first use.

      Corrected, lanes 140-143

      The authors should cite the previous study of Borges-Pereira et al., 2020 (PMID: 32848018) that also demonstrates the incomplete overlap of the calcium pools mobilized by thapsigargin and CPA in P. falciparum. The ability to measure calcium in intracellular stores using MagFluo4 opens the possibility to further investigate this discrepancy between CPA and thapsigargin, but CPA does not appear to have been used in the permeabilized cell experiments with MagFluo4. I would suggest that this could be added to Figure 2 and/or Figure 4, or at least as a supplementary figure.

      In response to this reviewer’s critique we performed additional experiments with Mag-Fluo4 loaded parasites. These are presented in the new Figure S3. We added CPA and TG and combined them to inhibit SERCA and to allow calcium leak from the loaded organelle. Under these conditions, we observed a very similar leak rate after the addition of the inhibitors as measured by the slope of Ca<sup>2+</sup> leak. We believe that the leak rate is most likely determined by the intrinsic ER mechanism. See the discussion of this result in lines 436442 and the previous response to the same reviewer comment.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Suggestions for improved or additional experiments, data, or analyses

      (1) Figure 1A is not mentioned in the main text even though it is discussed.

      Corrected

      (2) Figure 1G: Values do not match, how can GPN be so high?

      These figures were replaced by new traces and individual quantification analyses for each experiment.

      (3) Figure 1H and I: Is this type of data/results also available for the mitochondrion?

      Unfortunately, we were not able to include this experiment because we were unable to accurately quantify the mitochondrial calcium release. Instead, we used mitochondrial GECIs and the results are shown in Figure 5 to study mitochondrial calcium uptake.

      (4) Figure 1H: where does the calcium go after GPN addition? Taken up by another calcium store?

      Most likely calcium is extruded through the plasma membrane by the activity of the Calcium ATPase TgA1.

      However, the reviewer’s suggestion is also possible, and calcium could be taken by another store like the mitochondrion. In this regard, we did observe a large mitochondrial calcium increase (parasites expressing SOD2-GCaMp6) after adding GPN (Fig 5I) suggesting that the mitochondrion may take calcium from the organelle targeted by GPN. However, the calcium affinity of the mitochondrion is very low, so the concentration of calcium needs to be very high to activate it and these concentrations are most likely achieved at the microdomains formed between the mitochondrion and other organelles.

      (5) Figure 2B-C: Further explanation of why these particular values were chosen for the follow-up experiments would be helpful for the reader.

      We tested a wide range of MgATP and free calcium concentrations to measure ER Ca<sup>2+</sup> uptake catalyzed by TgSERCA. The concentrations shown fall within the linear range.

      We followed the free calcium concentrations used by studies of mammalian SERCA (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ceca.2020.102188 ). In this protocol they used 220 nM free calcium, which was close to cytosolic Ca<sup>2+</sup> levels. TgSERCA can take up calcium efficiently at this concentration, as shown in Fig 2. We used less MgATP than the mammalian cell protocols, since we did not observe a significant increase in SERCA activity beyond 0.5 mM MgATP. We added one more sentence explaining in the results, lines 204-207.

      (6) Figure 3E: Revise the error bar? (and note that colours do not match the graph legend).

      The colors do match; the problem visualizing it is because vacuoles containing a single parasite are virtually absent in the control group without ATc treatment.

      (7) Figure 3H: 'Interestingly, when testing egress after the addition of saponin in the presence of extracellular Ca2+, we observed that the tachyzoites egressed sooner (Figure 3H, saponin egress).' This is the only graph showing egress timing, and thus it is not clear what is the comparison. The egressed here is sooner compared to what condition? Egress in the absence of Ca2+? This requires clarification and might require the control data to be added.

      In the saponin experiment we compare time to egress of the mutant grown with or without ATc. The measurement is for time to egress after adding saponin. This experiment is in the presence of extracellular calcium. The protocol was previously used to measure time to egress: PMID: 40043955, PMID: 38382669, PMID: 26374900. See also response to question 9 of reviewer 1.

      (8) Figure 4C: There is a small peak appearing right after TG addition this should be discussed and explained.

      This trace was generated in a different fluorometer, F-4000. This was an artifact due to jumping of the signal when adding TG. Multiple repeats of the same experiment in the newer F7000 did not show the peak. We included in the MM the use of the F-4000 fluorometer for some experiments. We apologize for the omission. Lines 609-610

      (9) Figure 5A: An important control that is missing is co-localisation with a mitochondrial marker.

      The expression of the SOD2-GCaMP6 has been characterized: PMID: 31758454

      (10) Figure 5H: This line was made for this study however the line genetic verification is missing.

      In response to this concern we now include a new Figure S5 showing the fluorescence of GCaMP6 in the mitochondrion of the iDTgSERCA mutant (Fig. S5A). We include several parasites. In addition, we show fluorescence measurements after addition of Calcium showing that the cells are unresponsive indicating that the indicator is not in the cytosol. Lines 650-651 and 344-348.

      (11) Figure 6D: since the membranes are hard to see, it is not clear whether the arrows show structures that are in line with the definition of membrane contact sites. The authors should provide an in-depth analysis of the length of the interaction between the membranes where the distance is less than 30 nM, and discuss how many structures corresponding to the definition were analysed.

      All the requested details are now included in the legend to Figure S3.

      Minor corrections to the text and figures

      (1) Unify statistical labelling throughout the paper replacing *** with p values.

      Corrected. We changed the *** with the actual p value in some figures. For figure 2 and Fig S1, we still use the *** due to the space limitation.

      (2) Unify ATC vs ATc throughout the paper.

      Corrected

      (3) Unify capitalization of line name (iΔTgserca/i ΔTgSERCA) throughout the paper.

      Corrected

      (4) Unify capitalization of p value (p/P) throughout the paper.

      Corrected in figures

      (5) Unify Fig X vs Fig. X throughout the text.

      Corrected

      (6) Add values of scale bars to legends (eg Figure S2).

      Corrected

      (7) What is the time point for the data in Figures 4E-H, 5H, and S3? 24hrs? include in the legend.

      Added 24 h to the legends. Fig S3 is now S4.

      (8) Figure 3F: The second graph is NS thus perhaps no need for the p-value?

      Corrected

      (8) Figure 3G: Worth considering swapping the two around: first attachment and then invasion?

      Corrected. Invasion and attachment bars were swapped.

      (10) Figure 4A/B: Wrong colour match for Figure 4B.

      Corrected

      (11) Figure 4F: In the main text, the authors reference to Figure 1F, correct to 4F.

      Corrected

      (12) Figure 4H: In the main text, authors reference to Figure 1H, correct to 4H.

      Corrected

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary: The authors of this study sought to define a role for IgM in responses to house dust mites in the lung.

      Strengths:

      Unexpected observation about IgM biology

      Combination of experiments to elucidate function

      Weaknesses:

      Would love more connection to human disease

      We thank the reviewer for these comments. At the time of this publication, we have not made a concrete link with human disease. While there is some anecdotal evidence of diseases such as Autoimmune glomerulonephritis, Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, Bronchial polyp, SLE, Celiac disease and other diseases in people with low IgM. Allergic disorders are also common in people with IgM deficiency, other studies have reported as high as 33-47%. The mechanisms for the high incidence of allergic diseases are unclear as generally, these patients have normal IgG and IgE levels. IgM deficiency may represent a heterogeneous spectrum of genetic defects, which might explain the heterogeneous nature of disease presentations. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Hadebe and colleagues describes a striking reduction in airway hyperresponsiveness in Igm-deficient mice in response to HDM, OVA and papain across the B6 and BALB-c backgrounds. The authors suggest that the deficit is not due to improper type 2 immune responses, nor an aberrant B cell response, despite a lack of class switching in these mice. Through RNA-Seq approaches, the authors identify few differences between the lungs of WT and Igm-deficient mice, but see that two genes involved in actin regulation are greatly reduced in IgM-deficient mice. The authors target these genes by CRISPR-Cas9 in in vitro assays of smooth muscle cells to show that these may regulate cell contraction. While the study is conceptually interesting, there are a number of limitations, which stop us from drawing meaningful conclusions.

      Strengths:

      Fig. 1. The authors clearly show that IgMKO mice have striking reduced AHR in the HDM model, despite the presence of a good cellular B cell response.

      Weaknesses:

      Fig. 2. The authors characterize the cd4 t cell response to HDM in IGMKO mice.<br /> They have restimulated medLN cells with antiCD3 for 5 days to look for IL-4 and IL-13, and find no discernible difference between WT and KO mice. The absence of PBS-treated WT and KO mice in this analysis means it is unclear if HDM-challenged mice are showing IL-4 or IL-13 levels above that seen at baseline in this assay.

      We thank the Reviewer for this comment. We would like to mention that a very minimal level of IL-4 and IL-13 in PBS mice was detected. We have indicated with a dotted line on the Figure to show levels in unstimulated or naïve cytokines. Please see Author response image 1 below from anti-CD3 stimulated cytokine ELISA data. The levels of these cytokines are very low and are not changed between WT and IgM<sup>-/-</sup> mice, this is also true for PMA/ionomycin-stimulated cells.

      Author response image 1.

      The choice of 5 days is strange, given that the response the authors want to see is in already primed cells. A 1-2 day assay would have been better.

      We agree with the reviewer that a shorter stimulation period would work. Over the years we have settled for 5-day re-stimulation for both anti-CD3 and HDM. We have tried other time points, but we consistently get better secretion of cytokines after 5 days.

      It is concerning that the authors state that HDM restimulation did not induce cytokine production from medLN cells, since countless studies have shown that restimulation of medLN would induce IL-13, IL-5 and IL-10 production from medLN. This indicates that the sensitization and challenge model used by the authors is not working as it should.

      We thank the reviewer for this observation. In our recent paper showing how antigen load affects B cell function, we used very low levels of HDM to sensitise and challenge mice (1 ug and 3 ug respectively). See below article, Hadebe et al., 2021 JACI. This is because Labs that have used these low HDM levels also suggested that antigen load impacts B cell function, especially in their role in germinal centres. We believe the reason we see low or undetectable levels of cytokines is because of this low antigen load sensitisation and challenge. In other manuscripts we have published or about to publish, we have shown that normal HDM sensitisation load (1 ug or 100 ug) and challenge (10 ug) do induce cytokine release upon restimulation with HDM. See the below article by Khumalo et al, 2020 JCI Insight (Figure 4A).

      Sabelo Hadebe, Jermaine Khumalo, Sandisiwe Mangali, Nontobeko Mthembu, Hlumani Ndlovu, Amkele Ngomti, Martyna Scibiorek, Frank Kirstein, Frank Brombacher. Deletion of IL-4Ra signalling on B cells limits hyperresponsiveness depending on antigen load. doi.org/10.1016/j.jaci.2020.12.635).

      Jermaine Khumalo, Frank Kirstein, Sabelo Hadebe, Frank Brombacher. IL-4Rα signalling in regulatory T cells is required for dampening allergic airway inflammation through inhibition of IL-33 by type 2 innate lymphoid cells. JCI Insight. 2020 Oct 15;5(20):e136206. doi: 10.1172/jci.insight.136206

      The IL-13 staining shown in panel c is also not definitive. One should be able to optimize their assays to achieve a better level of staining, to my mind.

      We agree with the reviewer that much higher IL-13-producing CD4 T cells should be observed. We don’t think this is a technical glitch or non-optimal set-up as we see much higher levels of IL-13-producing CD4 T cells when using higher doses of HDM to sensitise and challenge, say between 7 -20% in WT mice (see Author response image 2, lung stimulated with PMA/ionomycin+Monensin, please note this is for illustration purposes only and it not linked to the current manuscript, its merely to demonstrate a point from other experiments we have conducted in the lab).

      Author response image 2.

      In d-f, the authors perform a serum transfer, but they only do this once. The half life of IgM is quite short. The authors should perform multiple naïve serum transfers to see if this is enough to induce FULL AHR.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We apologise if this was not clear enough on the Figure legend and method, we did transfer serum 3x, a day before sensitisation, on the day of sensitisation and a day before the challenge to circumvent the short life of IgM. In our subsequent experiments, we have now used busulfan to deplete all bone marrow in IgM-deficient mice and replace it with WT bone marrow and this method restores AHR (Figure 3).

      This now appears in line 165 to 169 and reads

      “Adoptive transfer of naïve serum

      Naïve wild-type mice were euthanised and blood was collected via cardiac puncture before being spun down (5500rpm, 10min, RT) to collect serum. Serum (200mL) was injected intraperitoneally into IgM-deficient mice. Serum was injected intraperitoneally at day -1, 0, and a day before the challenge with HDM (day 10).”

      The presence of negative values of total IgE in panel F would indicate some errors in calculation of serum IgE concentrations.

      We thank the reviewer for this observation. For better clarity, we have now indicated these values as undetected in Figure , as they were below our detection limit.

      Overall, it is hard to be convinced that IgM-deficiency does not lead to a reduction in Th2 inflammation, since the assays appear suboptimal.

      We disagree with the reviewer in this instance, because we have shown in 3 different models and in 2 different strains and 2 doses of HDM (high and low) that no matter what you do, Th2 remains intact. Our reason for choosing low dose HDM was based on our previous work and that of others, which showed that depending on antigen load, B cells can either be redundant or have functional roles. Since our interest was to tease out the role of B cells and specifically IgM, it was important that we look at a scenario where B cells are known to have a function (low antigen load). We did find similar findings at high dose of HDM load, but effects on AHR were not as strong, but Th2 was not changed, in fact in some instances Th2 was higher in IgM-deficient mice.

      Fig. 3. Gene expression differences between WT and KO mice in PBS and HDM challenged settings are shown. PCA analysis does not show clear differences between all four groups, but genes are certainly up and downregulated, in particular when comparing PBS to HDM challenged mice. In both PBS and HDM challenged settings, three genes stand out as being upregulated in WT v KO mice. these are Baiap2l1, erdr1 and Chil1.

      Noted

      Fig. 4. The authors attempt to quantify BAIAP2L1 in mouse lungs. It is difficult to know if the antibody used really detects the correct protein. A BAIAP2L1-KO is not used as a control for staining, and I am not sure if competitive assays for BAIAP2L1 can be set up. The flow data is not convincing. The immunohistochemistry shows BAIAP2L1 (in red) in many, many cells, essentially throughout the section. There is also no discernible difference between WT and KO mice, which one might have expected based on the RNA-Seq data. So, from my perspective, it is hard to say if/where this protein is located, and whether there truly exists a difference in expression between wt and ko mice.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We are certain that the antibody does detect BAIAP2L1, we have used it in 3 assays, which we admit may show varying specificities since it’s a Polyclonal antibody. However, in our western blot, the antibody detects 1 band at 56.7kDa and no other bands, apart from what we think are isoforms. We agree that BAIAP2L1 is expressed by many cell types, including CD45+ cells and alpha smooth muscle negative cells and we show this in our supplementary Figure 9. Where we think there is a difference in expression between WT and IgM-deficient mice is in alpha-smooth muscle-positive cells. We have tested antibodies from different companies, and we find similar findings. We do not have access to BAIAP2L1 KO mice and to test specificity, we have also used single stain controls with or without secondary antibody and isotype control which show no binding in western blot and Immunofluorescence assays and Fluorescence minus one antibody in Flow cytometry, so that way we are convinced that the signal we are seeing is specific to BAIAP2L1.

      Fig. 5 and 6. The authors use a single cell contractility assay to measure whether BAIAP2L1 and ERDR1 impact on bronchial smooth muscle cell contractility. I am not familiar with the assay, but it looks like an interesting way of analysing contractility at the single cell level.

      The authors state that targeting these two genes with Cas9gRNA reduces smooth muscle cell contractility, and the data presented for contractility supports this observation. However, the efficiency of Cas9-mediated deletion is very unclear. The authors present a PCR in supp fig 9c as evidence of gene deletion, but it is entirely unclear with what efficiency the gene has been deleted. One should use sequencing to confirm deletion. Moreover, if the antibody was truly working, one should be able to use the antibody used in Fig 4 to detect BAIAP2L1 levels in these cells. The authors do not appear to have tried this.

      We thank the reviewer for these observations. We are in a process to optimise this using new polyclonal BAIAP2L1 antibodies from other companies, since the one we have tried doesn’t seem to work well on human cells via western blot. So hopefully in our new version, we will be able to demonstrate this by immunofluorescence or western blot.

      Other impressions:

      The paper is lacking a link between the deficiency of IgM and the effects on smooth muscle cell contraction.

      The levels of IL-13 and TNF in lavage of WT and IGMKO mice could be analysed.

      We have measured Th2 cytokine IL-13 in BAL fluid and found no differences between IgM-deficient mice and WT mice challenged with HDM (Author response image 1). We could not detected TNF-alpha in the BAL fluid, it was below detection limit.

      Author response image 3.

      IL-13 levels are not changed in IgM-deficient mice in the lung. Bronchoalveolar lavage fluid in WT or IgM-deficient mice sensitised and challenged with HDM. TNF-a levels were below the detection limit.

      Moreover, what is the impact of IgM itself on smooth muscle cells? In the Fig. 7 schematic, are the authors proposing a direct role for IgM on smooth muscle cells? Does IgM in cell culture media induce contraction of SMC? This could be tested and would be interesting, to my mind.

      We thank the Reviewer for these comments. We are still trying to test this, unfortunately, we have experienced delays in getting reagents such as human IgM to South Africa. We hope that we will be able to add this in our subsequent versions of the article. We agree it is an interesting experiment to do even if not for this manuscript but for our general understanding of this interaction at least in an in vitro system.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper by Sabelo et al. describes a new pathway by which lack of IgM in the mouse lowers bronchial hyperresponsiveness (BHR) in response to metacholine in several mouse models of allergic airway inflammation in Balb/c mice and C57/Bl6 mice. Strikingly, loss of IgM does not lead to less eosinophilic airway inflammation, Th2 cytokine production or mucus metaplasia, but to a selective loss of BHR. This occurs irrespective of the dose of allergen used. This was important to address since several prior models of HDM allergy have shown that the contribution of B cells to airway inflammation and BHR is dose dependent.

      After a description of the phenotype, the authors try to elucidate the mechanisms. There is no loss of B cells in these mice. However, there is a lack of class switching to IgE and IgG1, with a concomitant increase in IgD. Restoring immunoglobulins with transfer of naïve serum in IgM deficient mice leads to restoration of allergen-specific IgE and IgG1 responses, which is not really explained in the paper how this might work. There is also no restoration of IgM responses, and concomitantly, the phenotype of reduced BHR still holds when serum is given, leading authors to conclude that the mechanism is IgE and IgG1 independent. Wild type B cell transfer also does not restore IgM responses, due to lack of engraftment of the B cells. Next authors do whole lung RNA sequencing and pinpoint reduced BAIAP2L1 mRNA as the culprit of the phenotype of IgM<sup>-/-</sup> mice. However, this cannot be validated fully on protein levels and immunohistology since differences between WT and IgM KO are not statistically significant, and B cell and IgM restoration are impossible. The histology and flow cytometry seems to suggest that expression is mainly found in alpha smooth muscle positive cells, which could still be smooth muscle cells or myofibroblasts. Next therefore, the authors move to CRISPR knock down of BAIAP2L1 in a human smooth muscle cell line, and show that loss leads to less contraction of these cells in vitro in a microscopic FLECS assay, in which smooth muscle cells bind to elastomeric contractible surfaces.

      Strengths:

      (1) There is a strong reduction in BHR in IgM-deficient mice, without alterations in B cell number, disconnected from effects on eosinophilia or Th2 cytokine production

      (2) BAIAP2L1 has never been linked to asthma in mice or humans

      Weaknesses:

      (1) While the observations of reduced BHR in IgM deficient mice are strong, there is insufficient mechanistic underpinning on how loss of IgM could lead to reduced expression of BAIAP2L1. Since it is impossible to restore IgM levels by either serum or B cell transfer and since protein levels of BAIAP2L1 are not significantly reduced, there is a lack of a causal relationship that this is the explanation for the lack of BHR in IgM-deficient mice. The reader is unclear if there is a fundamental (maybe developmental) difference in non-hematopoietic cells in these IgM-deficient mice (which might have accumulated another genetic mutation over the years). In this regard, it would be important to know if littermates were newly generated, or historically bred along with the KO line.

      We thank the reviewer for asking this question and getting us to think of this in a different way. This prompted us to use a different method to try and restore IgM function and since our animal facility no longer allows irradiation, we opted for busulfan. We present this data as new data in Figure 3. We had to go back and breed this strain and then generated bone marrow chimeras. What we have shown now with chimeras is that if we can deplete bone marrow from IgM-deficient mice and replace it with congenic WT bone marrow when we allow these mice to rest for 2 months before challenge with HDM (new Supplementary Figure 6 a-c) We also show that AHR (resistance and elastance) is partially restored in this way (Figure 3 a and b) as mice that receive congenic WT bone marrow after chemical irradiation can mount AHR and those that receive IgM-deficient bone marrow, can’t mount AHR upon challenge with HDM. If the mice had accumulated an unknown genetic mutation in non-hematopoietic cells, the transfer of WT bone marrow would not make a difference. So, we don’t believe the colony could have gained a mutation that we are unaware of. We have also shipped these mice to other groups and in their hands, this strains still only behaves as an IgM only knockout mice. See their publication below.

      Mark Noviski, James L Mueller, Anne Satterthwaite, Lee Ann Garrett-Sinha, Frank Brombacher, Julie Zikherman 2018. IgM and IgD B cell receptors differentially respond to endogenous antigens and control B cell fate. eLife 2018;7:e35074. DOI: https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.35074 we have also added methods for bone marrow chimaeras and added results sections and new Figures related to this methods.

      Methods (line 171-182).

      “Busulfan Bone marrow chimeras

      WT (CD45.2) and IgM<sup>-/-</sup> (CD45.2) congenic mice were treated with 25 mg/kg busulfan (Sigma-Aldrich, Aston Manor, South Africa) per day for 3 consecutive days (75 mg/kg in total) dissolved in 10% DMSO and Phosphate buffered saline (0.2mL, intraperitoneally) to ablate bone marrow cells. Twenty-four hours after last administration of busulfan, mice were injected intravenously with fresh bone marrow (10x10<sup>6</sup> cells, 100mL) isolated from hind leg femurs of either WT (CD45.1) or IgM<sup>-/-</sup> mice(33). Animals were then allowed to complement their haematopoietic cells for 8 weeks. In some experiments the level of bone marrow ablation was assessed 4 days post-busulfan treatment in mice that did not receive donor cells. At the end of experiment level of complemented cells were also assessed in WT and IgM<sup>-/-</sup> mice that received WT (CD45.1) bone marrow.”

      Results (line 491-521)

      “Replacement of IgM-deficient mice with functional hematopoietic cells in busulfan mice chimeric mice restores airway hyperresponsiveness.

      We then generated bone marrow chimeras by chemical radiation using busulfan(33). We treated mice three times with busulfan for 3 consecutive days and after 24 hrs transferred naïve bone marrow from congenic CD45.1 WT mice or CD45.2 IgM<sup>-/-</sup> mice (Fig. 3a and Supplementary Fig. 5a). We showed that recipient mice that did not receive donor bone marrow after 4 days post-treatment have significantly reduced lineage markers (CD45+Sca-1+) or lineage negative (Lin-) cells in the bone marrow when compared to untreated or vehicle (10% DMSO) treated mice (Supplementary Figure 5b-c). We allowed mice to reconstitute bone marrow for 8 weeks before sensitisation and challenge with low dose HDM (Figure 3a). We showed that WT (CD45.2) recipient mice that received WT (CD45.1) donor bone marrow had higher airway resistance and elastance and this was comparable to IgM<sup>-/-</sup> (CD45.2) recipient mice that received donor WT (CD45.1) bone marrow (Figure 3b). As expected, IgM<sup>-/-</sup> (CD45.2) recipient mice that received donor IgM<sup>-/-</sup> (CD45.2) bone marrow had significantly lower AHR compared to WT (CD45.2) or IgM<sup>-/-</sup> (CD45.2) recipient mice that received WT (CD45.1) bone marrow (Figure 3b). We confirmed that the differences observed were not due to differences in bone marrow reconstitution as we saw similar frequencies of CD45.1 cells within the lymphocyte populations in the lungs and other tissues (Supplementary Fig. 5d). We observed no significant changes in the lung neutrophils, eosinophils, inflammatory macrophages, CD4 T cells or B cells in WT or IgM<sup>-/-</sup> (CD45.2) recipient mice that received donor WT (CD45.1/CD45.2) or IgM<sup>-/-</sup> (CD45.2) bone marrow when sensitised and challenged with low dose HDM (Fig. 3c)

      Restoring IgM function through adoptive reconstitution with congenic CD45.1 bone marrow in non-chemically irradiated recipient mice or sorted B cells into IgM<sup>-/-</sup> mice (Supplementary Fig.  6a) did not replenish IgM B cells to levels observed in WT mice and as a result did not restore AHR, total IgE and IgM in these mice (Supplementary Fig.  6b-c).”

      The 2 new figures are

      Figure 3 which moved the rest of the Figures down and Supplementary Figure 5, which also moved the rest of the supplementary figures down.

      Discussion appears in line 757-766 of the untracked version of the article.

      To resolve other endogenous factors that could have potentially influenced reduced AHR in IgM-deficient mice, we resorted to busulfan chemical irradiation to deplete bone marrow cells in IgM-deficient mice and replace bone marrow with WT bone marrow. While it is well accepted that busulfan chemical irradiation partially depletes bone marrow cells, in our case it was not possible to pursue other irradiation methods due to changes in ethical regulations and that fact that mice are slow to recover after gamma rays irradiation. Busulfan chemical irradiation allowed us to show that we could mostly restore AHR in IgM-deficient recipient mice that received donor WT bone marrow when challenged with low dose HDM.

      (2) There is no mention of the potential role of complement in activation of AHR, which might be altered in IgM-deficient mice 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have not directly looked at complement in this instance, however, from our previous work on C3-/- mice, there have been comparable AHR to WT mice under the HDM challenge.

      (3) What is the contribution of elevated IgD in the phenotype of the IgM-deficient mice. It has been described by this group that IgD levels are clearly elevated

      We thank the reviewer for this question. We believe that IgD is essentially what drives partial class switching to IgG, we certainly have shown that in the case of VSV virus and Trypanosoma congolense and Trypanosoma brucei brucei that elevated IgD drive delayed but effective IgG in the absence of IgM (Lutz et al, 2001, Nature). This is also confirmed by Noviski studies where they show that both IgM and IgD do share some endogenous antigens, so its likely that external antigens can activate IgD in a similar manner to prompt class switching.

      (4) How can transfer of naïve serum in class switching deficient IgM KO mice lead to restoration of allergen specific IgE and IgG1?

      We thank the Reviewer for these comments, we believe that naïve sera transferred to IgM deficient mice is able to bind to the surface of B cells via IgM receptors (FcμR / Fcα/μR), which are still present on B cells and this is sufficient to facilitate class switching. Our IgM<sup>-/-</sup> mouse lacks both membrane-bound and secreted IgM, and transferred serum contains at least secreted IgM which can bind to surfaces via its Fc portion. We measured HDM-specific IgE and we found very low levels, but these were not different between WT and IgM<sup>-/-</sup> adoptively transferred with WT serum. We also detected HDM-specific IgG1 in IgM<sup>-/-</sup> transferred with WT sera to the same level as WT, confirming a possible class switching, of course, we can’t rule out that transferred sera also contains some IgG1. We also can’t rule out that elevated IgD levels can partially be responsible for class switched IgG1 as discussed above.

      In the discussion line 804-812, we also added the following

      “We speculate that IgM can directly activate smooth muscle cells by binding a number of its surface receptors including FcμR, Fcα/μR and pIgR(52-54). IgM binds to FcμR strictly, but shares Fcα/μR and pIgR with IgA(5,52,54). Both Fcα/μR and pIgR can be expressed by non-structural cells at mucosal sites(54,55). We would not rule out that the mechanisms of muscle contraction might be through one of these IgM receptors, especially the ones expressed on smooth muscle cells(54,55). Certainly, our future studies will be directed towards characterizing the mechanism by which IgM potentially activates the smooth muscle.”

      We have discussed this section under Discussion section, line 731 to 757. In addition, since we have now performed bone marrow chimaeras we have further added the following in our discussion in line 757-766.

      To resolve other endogenous factors that could have potentially influenced reduced AHR in IgM-deficient mice, we resorted to busulfan chemical irradiation to deplete bone marrow cells in IgM-deficient mice and replace bone marrow with WT bone marrow. While it is well accepted that busulfan chemical irradiation partially depletes bone marrow cells, in our case it was not possible to pursue other irradiation methods due to changes in ethical regulations and that fact that mice are slow to recover after gamma rays irradiation. Busulfan chemical irradiation allowed us to show that we could mostly restore AHR in IgM-deficient recipient mice that received donor WT bone marrow when challenged with low dose HDM.

      We removed the following lines, after performing bone marrow chimaeras since this changed some aspects.

      Our efforts to adoptively transfer wild-type bone marrow or sorted B cells into IgM-deficient mice were also largely unsuccessful partly due to poor engraftment of wild-type B cells into secondary lymphoid tissues. Natural secreted IgM is mainly produced by B1 cells in the peritoneal cavity, and it is likely that any transfer of B cells via bone marrow transfer would not be sufficient to restore soluble levels of IgM(3,10).

      (5) Alpha smooth muscle antigen is also expressed by myofibroblasts. This is insufficiently worked out. The histology mentions "expression in cells in close contact with smooth muscle". This needs more detail since it is a very vague term. Is it in smooth muscle or in myofibroblasts.

      Response: We appreciate that alpha-smooth muscle actin-positive cells are a small fraction in the lung and even within CD45 negative cells, but their contribution to airway hyperresponsiveness is major. We also concede that by immunofluorescence BAIAP2L1 seems to be expressed by cells adjacent to alpha-smooth muscle actin (Fig. 5b), however, we know that cells close to smooth muscle (such as extracellular matrix and myofibroblasts) contribute to its hypertrophy in allergic asthma.

      James AL, Elliot JG, Jones RL, Carroll ML, Mauad T, Bai TR, et al. Airway Smooth Muscle Hypertrophy and Hyperplasia in Asthma. Am J Respir Crit Care Med [Internet]. 2012;185:1058–64. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1164/rccm.201110-1849OC

      (6) Have polymorphisms in BAIAP2L1 ever been linked to human asthma?

      No, we have looked in asthma GWAS studies, at least summary statics and we have not seen any SNPs can could be associated with human asthma.

      (7) IgM deficient patients are at increased risk for asthma. This paper suggests the opposite. So the translational potential is unclear

      We thank the reviewer for these comments. At the time of this publication, we have not made a concrete link with human disease. While there is some anecdotal evidence of diseases such as Autoimmune glomerulonephritis, Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, Bronchial polyp, SLE, Celiac disease and other diseases in people with low IgM. Allergic disorders are also common in people with IgM deficiency as the reviewer correctly points out, other studies have reported as high as 33-47%. The mechanisms for the high incidence of allergic diseases are unclear as generally, these patients have normal or higher IgG and IgE levels. IgM deficiency may represent a heterogeneous spectrum of genetic defects, which might explain the heterogeneous nature of disease presentations.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      TMC7 knockout mice were generated by the authors and the phenotype was analyzed. They found that Tmc7 is localized to Golgi and is needed for acrosome biogenesis.

      Strengths:

      The phenotype of infertility is clear, and the results of TMC7 localization and the failed acrosome formation are highly reliable. In this respect, they made a significant discovery regarding spermatogenesis.

      Weaknesses:

      There are also some concerns, which are mainly related to the molecular function of TMC7 and Figure 5.

      (1) It is understandable that TMC7 exhibits some channel activity in the Golgi and somehow affects luminal pH or Ca2+, leading to the failure of acrosome formation. On the other hand, since they are conducting the pH and calcium imaging from the cytoplasm, I do not think that the effect of TMC7 channel function in Golgi is detectable with their methods.

      We agree with the reviewer that there are no direct evidences showing the effect of TMC7 channel function in Golgi. We have changed the description in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Rather, it is more likely that they are detecting apoptotic cells that have no longer normal ion homeostasis.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this concern. We apologize for not labeling the postnatal stage in original Figure 5. We measured intracellular Ca2+, pH and ROS in PD30 testes (revised Fig. S6a-c), no apoptotic cells were observed at this stage (revised Fig. S6e, f). Apoptotic cells were found in the seminiferous tubules and cauda epididymis of 9-week-old Tmc7–/– mice (revised Fig. 5e-f). We have included TUNEL data in testis of PD21, PD30 and 9-week-old mice (revised Fig. 5e, f and Fig. S6e, f). In accordance with our findings, Tmc1 mutation has also been shown to result in reduced Ca2+ permeability, thus triggering hair cell apoptosis (Fettiplace, R, PNAS. 2022) [1].

      (3) Another concern is that n is only 3 for these imaging experiments.

      As suggested by the reviewer, more replicates were included in imaging experiments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study presents a significant finding that enhances our understanding of spermatogenesis. TMC7 belongs to a family of transmembrane channel-like proteins (TMC1-8), primarily known for their role in the ear. Mutations to TMC1/2 are linked to deafness in humans and mice and were originally characterized as auditory mechanosensitive ion channels. However, the function of the other TMC family members remains poorly characterized. In this study, the authors begin to elucidate the function of TMC7 in acrosome biogenesis during spermatogenesis. Through analysis of transcriptomics datasets, they identify TMC7 as a transmembrane channel-like protein with elevated transcript levels in round spermatids in both mouse and human testis. They then generate Tmc7-/- mice and find that male mice exhibit smaller testes and complete infertility. Examination of different developmental stages reveals spermatogenesis defects, including reduced sperm count, elongated spermatids, and large vacuoles. Additionally, abnormal acrosome morphology is observed beginning at the early-stage Golgi phase, indicating TMC7's involvement in proacrosomal vesicle trafficking and fusion. They observed localization of TMC7 in the cis-Golgi and suggest that its presence is required for maintaining Golgi integrity, with Tmc7-/- leading to reduced intracellular Ca2+, elevated pH, and increased ROS levels, likely resulting in spermatid apoptosis. Overall, the work delineates a new function of TMC7 in spermatogenesis and the authors suggest that its ion channel activity is likely important for Golgi homeostasis. This work is of significant interest to the community and is of high quality.

      Strengths:

      The biggest strength of the paper is the phenotypic characterization of the TMC7-/- mouse model, which has clear acrosome biogenesis/spermatogenesis defects. This is the main claim of the paper and it is supported by the data that are presented.

      Weaknesses:

      The claim is that TMC7 functions as an ion channel. It is reasonable to assume this given what has been previously published on the more well-characterized TMCs (TMC1/2), but the data supporting this is preliminary here, and more needs to be done to solidify this hypothesis. The authors are careful in their interpretation and present this merely as a hypothesis supporting this idea.

      We appreciate the insightful comment. It is indeed a limitation of our study that we lack strong evidences to support that TMC7 functions as an ion channel. We have planned to conduct cellular electrophysiology in GC-1 cells heterologous expression of TMC7. However, TMC7 was trapped in the endoplasmic reticulum like TMC1 and TMC2 (Yu X, PNAS. 2020)[2], and failed to localize to the Golgi. According to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have made careful and more detailed interpretation the molecular function of TMC7 in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Wang et al. have demonstrated that TMC7, a testis-enriched multipass transmembrane protein, is essential for male reproduction in mice. Tmc7 KO male mice are sterile due to reduced sperm count and abnormal sperm morphology. TMC7 co-localizes with GM130, a cis-Golgi marker, in round spermatids. The absence of TMC7 results in reduced levels of Golgi proteins, elevated abundance of ER stress markers, as well as changes of Ca2+ and pH levels in the KO testis. However, further confirmation is required because the analyses were performed with whole testis samples in spite of the differences in the germ cell composition in WT and KO testis. In addition, the causal relationships between the reported anomalies await thorough interrogation.

      Strengths:

      The microscopic images are of great quality, all figures are properly arranged, and the entire manuscript is very easy to follow.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Tmc7 KO male mice show multiple anomalies in sperm production and morphogenesis, such as reduced sperm count, abnormal sperm head, and deformed midpiece. Thus, it is confusing that the authors focused solely on impaired acrosome biogenesis.

      We are grateful to your comments and suggestions. We agree and have added these defects in spermiogenesis of Tmc7–/– mice in the abstract and discussion sections of revised manuscript.

      (2) Further investigations are warranted to determine whether the abnormalities reported in this manuscript (e.g., changes in protein, Ca2+, and pH levels) are directly associated with the molecular function of TMC7 or are the byproducts of partially arrested spermiogenesis. Please find additional comments in "Recommendations for the authors".

      Thank you for raising this concern. Per your comments, we have included data of intracellular Ca2+, pH and ROS in PD21 testes. The intracellular homeostasis was impaired as early as PD21, indicating TMC7 depletion impairs cellular homeostasis which in turn results in arrested spermiogenesis.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As noted by all three reviewers, current flow cytometry data does not necessarily support the 'ion channel' hypothesis, thus the phenotypic analysis is compelling but the molecular mechanism of how TMC7 facilitates acrosome biogenesis remains incomplete. It is highly recommended for the authors to at least discuss or test alternative hypotheses (as reviewer #2 suggested) such as the possibility of acting as 'lipid scramblase'. Also, the authors need to provide further explanation for other morphological defects if TMC7 is truly a functional ion channel in Golgi (and thus later at acrosome), which is also related to the key question of whether TMC7 is a functional ion channel.

      We thank the reviewing editor for the comments and suggestions. We agree that our study lack strong evidences to support that TMC7 functions as an ion channel. We have discussed the possibility of TMC7 acting as 'lipid scramblase' as suggested. We have also included data of intracellular Ca2+, pH and ROS in PD21, PD30 testes.

      Indeed, Tmc7–/– mice exhibits other defects including abnormal head morphology and disorganized mitochondrial sheaths. As TMC7 is localized to the cis-Golgi apparatus and is required for maintaining Golgi integrity. Previous studies on Golgi localized proteins including GOPC (Yao R, PNAS. 2002)[2], HRB (Kang-Decker N. Science. 2001)[3] and PICK1(Xiao N, JCI. 2009)[4] exhibit similar defects in spermiogenesis with Tmc7–/– mice. It is possible that defects morphologies in Tmc7–/– mice might be due to impaired function of Golgi.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The authors should provide more details about the imaging experiments using FACS. Since they only describe catalog numbers (Beyotime, S1056, S1006, S0033S) for imaging reagents, it is not immediately clear what reagents they actually used. Since they used Fluo3, BCECF, and DCFH, it would be better to mention their names.

      Thanks. We have provided more detailed antibody information as suggested.

      (2) I am also concerned that in the FACS there is no information at all about laser wavelength and filter properties. This is especially important for BCECF because the wavelength spectrum changes with pH. Also, if there are any positive controls for these imaging reagents, such as ionophores, it would be more convincing to include them.

      Thank you for your comment. Excitation wavelength is 488nm for detecting Ca2+, pH and ROS in FACS. BCECF is the most popular pH probe to monitor cellular pH and the reagent from Beyotime (S1006) has been used by other studies (Chen S, Blood. 2016)[5], (Liu H, Cell Death Dis. 2022)[6]. To make the results more reliable, we have repeated these experiments in PD21 testes (revised Figure 5a-c). No positive controls for these reagents were used in our experiments.

      (3) As noted above, it is better to avoid directly linking the cell's abnormal ion homeostasis to TMC7 ion channel function in the text. The discussion should be changed to emphasize that the TMC7-deficient cells are apoptotic and that these physiological phenomena are occurring as a side effect of this apoptosis.

      Thank you for raising this concern. We agree with the reviewer that there are no direct evidences showing the effect of TMC7 channel function in Golgi and we have changed the description in the revised manuscript.

      We performed new experiment to measure apoptosis and intracellular Ca2+, pH and ROS in PD21 testes. No apoptotic cells were observed at this stage. However, impaired cellular homeostasis was still found in testis of PD21 Tmc7-/- mice. These data suggest that TMC7 depletion impairs cellular homeostasis and hence induces spermatid apoptosis.

      (4) While I understand that it appears to be difficult to experimentally verify the ion channel function of TMC7, it may be supportive to compare its amino acid sequence and/or 3D predicted structure with that of TMC1/2. Including a supplemental figure for this purpose would emphasize the possibility that TMC7 functions as an ion channel.

      We thank the reviewer for making this great suggestion. We compared the amino acid sequence and structure of TMC1, TMC2 with TMC7 respectively. TMC1 had 81% sequence similarity with TMC7 and the RMSD (Root Mean Square Deviation) was 3.079. TMC2 had 82% sequence similarity with TMC7, the RMSD was 2.176. These data suggest that TMC7 has similar amino acid sequence and predicted structure with TMC1/2 and might functions as an ion channel. We have included the predicted structures in revised Fig. S7.

      Author response image 1.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I do not have any experimental comments or concerns to address, but I do ask that the authors consider an alternative hypothesis. Based on prior data demonstrating that TMC1 is a mechanosensitive ion channel, the authors reasonably assume that TMC7 may also function as an ion channel. Although the authors observe alterations in cytosolic Ca2+ and pH upon loss of TMC7 by flow cytometry, which begins to support this hypothesis, these data do not directly demonstrate ion channel activity.

      I was wondering if the authors had considered whether TMC7 could also function as a lipid scramblase. TMC1 has also been proposed to function as a Ca2+-inhibited scramblase, where knockout of TMC1 leads to a loss of phosphatidylserine (PS) exposure and membrane blebbing at the apical region of hair cells (Ballesteros, A. and Swartz, K., Science Advances, 2022). Furthermore, TMC proteins are structurally related to the Anoctamin/TMEM16 family of chloride channels and lipid scramblases, where TMEM16A-B are bona fide Ca2+-activated chloride channels, and TMEM16C-H are characterized as Ca2+-dependent scramblases. Based on their structural similarity and the observation that TMC1 may also exhibit lipid scrambling properties based on the PS exposure, I wonder if the authors may have data that support a TMC7 scramblase hypothesis. I was intrigued by this idea, especially given the authors' observations of large vacuoles in the seminiferous tubules and cauda epididymis and the vesicle accumulation phenotype in their TEM data. Incorporating this hypothesis into the discussion section, at minimum, could provide a valuable perspective, and this line of thought may lead to interesting data interpretation throughout the paper.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion. We have discussed the possibility of TMC7 acting as 'lipid scramblase' as suggested.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Gene symbols should be italicized, and protein symbols should be capitalized.

      Thanks. We have made changes to the manuscript as recommended.

      (2) Tmc7 KO males show reduced sperm count, which alters the germ cell composition in the testis (Figure 2g). Thus, it is inappropriate to compare protein levels using whole testis lysates (Figure 3e, 4h, 5d, 5f). Instead, the same immunoblotting analyses could be done with purified round spermatids or 3-wk-old testis. Likewise, the significance of the intracellular Ca2+ and pH measurements is potentially diminished by the differences in the germ cell composition in WT and KO mice.

      We appreciate this constructive suggestion. We agree with the reviewer that whole testis lysates diminished the differences between WT and _Tmc7-/-_mice. However, we are unable purify round spermatids due to the lack of specific markers.

      (3) Figures 2i, 2j: How sperm motility was measured should be specified in the Methods.

      We thank you for your significant reminding and have added sperm motility assessment in Methods section.

      (4) Figure 4g: It does not make sense to compare the fluorescence intensity of these proteins without making sure that the seminiferous tubules are in the same stage. As shown in Figures S5a and S5b, TMC7 exhibits varied abundance in spermatids at different steps.

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comment. We have replaced images in the same stage seminiferous tubules and compared the fluorescence intensity of new images as suggested.

      (5) Figure 4h: How were the band intensities measured? The third band from the left is visually stronger than the first one, but it does not seem to be so according to the column graph. The reviewer measured the intensity of GRASP65 bands relative to alpha-tubulin by ImageJ and obtained relative intensities of 0.35, 0.87, 0.6, and 0.08 for the bands from left to right. Additional replicates of the western blots should be included in the supplementary figures.

      Thank you for this insightful comment. The density and size of the blots were quantified by Image J. We have checked the first band from the left of GRASP65 and it seems that the protein was not fully transferred onto the PVDF membrane. We have performed new experiments and replaced the original bands (Revised Fig. 4h). Additional replicates of the western blots have been included in revised Fig. S8.

      (6) Figures 5a, 5b: Based on the observation of abnormal intracellular Ca2+ and pH levels in the KO germ cells, the authors concluded that TMC7 maintains the homeostasis of Golgi pH and ion (Lines 223-224, 263-264). However, intracellular Ca2+ and pH levels do not directly reflect those in the Golgi apparatus.

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. We agree and have changed “Golgi” to “intracellular” as suggested.

      (7) Figure 5c: ROS is produced during apoptosis. Thus, it is not appropriate to conclude that the increased ROS levels in Tmc7 KO germ cells lead to apoptosis.

      According to the reviewer’s comment, we measured ROS and apoptosis in testis of PD21 and PD30 mice. ROS levels were increased, but no apoptotic cells were observed in testis of PD21 and PD30 Tmc7–/– mice. Apoptotic cells were observed in testis of 9-week-old Tmc7–/– mice (Revised Fig. 5e-f). These data suggest that TMC7 depletion results in the accumulation of ROS, thereby leads to apoptosis.

      (1) Fettiplace, R., D.N. Furness, and M. Beurg, The conductance and organization of the TMC1-containing mechanotransducer channel complex in auditory hair cells. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 2022. 119(41): p. e2210849119.

      (2) Yu, X., et al., Deafness mutation D572N of TMC1 destabilizes TMC1 expression by disrupting LHFPL5 binding. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 2020. 117(47): p. 29894-29903.

      (3) Kang-Decker, N., et al., Lack of acrosome formation in Hrb-deficient mice. Science, 2001. 294(5546): p. 1531-3.

      (4) Xiao, N., et al., PICK1 deficiency causes male infertility in mice by disrupting acrosome formation. J Clin Invest, 2009. 119(4): p. 802-12.

      (5) Chen, S., et al., Sympathetic stimulation facilitates thrombopoiesis by promoting megakaryocyte adhesion, migration, and proplatelet formation. Blood, 2016. 127(8): p. 1024-35.

      (6) Liu, H., et al., PRMT5 critically mediates TMAO-induced inflammatory response in vascular smooth muscle cells. Cell Death Dis, 2022. 13(4): p. 299.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This research advance arctile describes a valuable image analysis method to identify individual cells (neurons) within a population of fluorescently labeled cells in the nematode C. elegans. The findings are solid and the method succeeds to identify cells with high precision. The method will be valuable to the C. elegans research community.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this paper, the authors developed an image analysis pipeline to automatically identify individual neurons within a population of fluorescently tagged neurons. This application is optimized to deal with multi-cell analysis and builds on a previous software version, developed by the same team, to resolve individual neurons from whole-brain imaging stacks. Using advanced statistical approaches and several heuristics tailored for C. elegans anatomy, the method successfully identifies individual neurons with a fairly high accuracy. Thus, while specific to C. elegans, this method can become instrumental for a variety of research directions such as in-vivo single-cell gene expression analysis and calcium-based neural activity studies.

      The analysis procedure depends on the availability of an accurate atlas that serves as a reference map for neural positions. Thus, when imaging a new reporter line without fair prior knowledge of the tagged cells, such an atlas may be very difficult to construct. Moreover, usage of available reference atlases, constructed based on other databases, is not very helpful (as shown by the authors in Fig 3), so for each new reporter line a de-novo atlas needs to be constructed.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out a place where we can use some clarification. While in principle that every new reporter line would need fair prior knowledge, atlases are either already available or not difficult to construct. If one can make the assumption that the anatomy of a particular line is similar to existing atlases (Yemini 2021,Nejatbakhsh 2023,Toyoshima 2020), the cell ID can be immediately performed. Even in the case that one suspects the anatomy may have changes from existing atlases (e.g. in the case of examining mutants), existing atlases can serve as a starting point to provide a draft ID, which facilitates manual annotation. Once manual annotations on ~5 animals are available as we have shown in this work (which is a manageable number in practice), this new dataset can be used to build an updated atlas that can be used for future inferences. We have added this discussion in the manuscript: “If one determines that the anatomy of a particular animal strain is substantially different from existing atlases, new atlases can be easily constructed using existing atlases as starting points.” (page 18).

      I have a few comments that may help to better understand the potential of the tool to become handy.

      1. I wonder the degree by which strain mosaicism affects the analysis (Figs 1-4) as it was performed on a non-integrated reporter strain. As stated, for constructing the reference atlas, the authors used worms in which they could identify the complete set of tagged neurons. But how senstiive is the analysis when assaying worms with different levels of mosaicism? Are the results shown in the paper stem from animals with a full neural set expression? Could the authors add results for which the assayed worms show partial expression where only 80%, 70%, 50% of the cells population are observed, and how this will affect idenfication accuracy? This may be important as many non-integrated reporter lines show high mosaic patterns and may therefore not be suitable for using this analytic method. In that sense, could the authors describe the mosaic degree of their line used for validating the method.

      We appreciate the reviewer for this comment. We want to clarify that most of the worms used in the construction of the atlas are indeed affected by mosaicism and thus do not express the full set of candidate neurons. We have added such a plot as requested (Figure 3 – figure supplement 2, copied below). Our data show that there is no correlation between the fraction of cells expressed in a worm and neuron ID correspondence. We agree with the reviewer this additional insight may be helpful; we have modified the text to include this discussion: “Note that we observed no correlation between the degree of mosaicism and neuron ID correspondence (Figure 3- figure supplement 2).” (page 10).

      Author response image 1.

      No correlation between the degree of mosaicism (fraction of cells expressed in the worm) and neuron ID correspondence.

      1. For the gene expression analysis (Fig 5), where was the intensity of the GFP extracted from? As it has no nuclear tag, the protein should be cytoplasmic (as seen in Fig 5a), but in Fig 5c it is shown as if the region of interest to extract fluorescence was nuclear. If fluorescence was indeed extracted from the cytoplasm, then it will be helpful to include in the software and in the results description how this was done, as a huge hurdle in dissecting such multi-cell images is avoiding crossreads between adjacent/intersecting neurons.

      For this work, we used nuclear-localized RFP co-expressed in the animal, and the GFP intensities were extracted from the same region RFP intensities were extracted. If cytosolic reporters are used, one would imagine a membrane label would be necessary to discern the border of the cells. We clarified our reagents and approach in the text: “The segmentation was done on the nuclear-localized mCherry signals, and GFP intensities were extracted from the same region.” (page21).

      1. In the same mater: In the methods, it is specified that the strain expressing GCAMP was also used in the gene expression analysis shown in Figure 5. But the calcium indicator may show transient intensities depending on spontaneous neural activity during the imaging. This will introduce a significant variability that may affect the expression correlation analysis as depicted in Figure 5.

      We apologize for the error in text. The strain used in the gene expression analysis did not express GCaMP. We did not analyze GCaMP expression in figure 5. We have corrected the error in the methods.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors succeed in generalizing the pre-alignment procedure for their cell idenfication method to allow it to work effectively on data with only small subsets of cells labeled. They convincingly show that their extension accurately identifies head angle, based on finding auto fluorescent tissue and looking for a symmetric l/r axis. They demonstrate that the method works to identify known subsets of neurons with varying accuracy depending on the nature of underlying atlas data. Their approach should be a useful one for researchers wishing to identify subsets of head neurons in C. elegans, for example in whole brain recording, and the ideas might be useful elsewhere.

      The authors also strive to give some general insights on what makes a good atlas. It is interesting and valuable to see (at least for this specific set of neurons) that 5-10 ideal examples are sufficient. However, some critical details would help in understanding how far their insights generalize. I believe the set of neurons in each atlas version are matched to the known set of cells in the sparse neuronal marker, however this critical detail isn't explicitly stated anywhere I can see.

      This is an important point. We have made text modifications to make it clear to the readers that for all atlases, the number of entities (candidate list) was kept consistent as listed in the methods. In the results section under “CRF_ID 2.0 for automatic cell annotation in multi-cell images,” we added the following sentence: “Note that a truncated candidate list can be used for subse-tspecific cell ID if the neuronal expression is known” (page 3). In the methods section, we added the following sentence: “For multi-cell neuron predictions on the glr-1 strain, a truncated atlas containing only the above 37 neurons was used to exclude neuron candidates that are irrelevant for prediction” (Page 20).

      In addition, it is stated that some neuron positions are missing in the neuropal data and replaced with the (single) position available from the open worm atlas. It should be stated how many neurons are missing and replaced in this way (providing weaker information).

      We modified the text in the result section as follows: “Eight out of 37 candidate neurons are missing in the neuroPAL atlas, which means 40% of the pairwise relationships of neurons expressing the glr-1p::NLS-mcherry transgene were not augmented with the NeuroPAL data but were assigned the default values from the OpenWorm atlas” (page 10).

      It also is not explicitly stated that the putative identities for the uncertain cells (designated with Greek letters) are used to sample the neuropal data. Large numbers of openworm single positions or if uncertain cells are misidentified forcing alignment against the positions of nearby but different cells would both handicap the neuropal atlas relative to the matched florescence atlas. This is an important question since sufficient performance from an ideal neuropal atlas (subsampled) would avoid the need for building custom atlases per strain.

      The putative identities are not used to sample the NeuroPAL data. They were used in the glr-1 multi-cell case to indicate low confidence in manual identification/annotation. For all steps of manual annotation and CRF_ID predictions, we used real neuron labels, and the Greek labels were used for reporting purposes only. It is true that the OpenWorm values (40% of the atlas) would be a handicap for the neuroPAL atlas. This is mainly due to the difficulty of obtaining NeuroPAL data as it requires 3-color fluorescence microscopy and significant time and labor to annotate the large set of neurons. This is one reason to take a complementary approach as we do in this paper.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1. Figure 3, there is a confusion in the legend relating to panels c-e (e.g. panel c is neuron ID accuracy but it is described per panel e in the legend.

      We made the necessary changes.

      1. Figure 3, were statistical tests performed for panels d-e? if so, and the outcome was not significant, then it might be good to indicate this in the legend.

      We have added results of statistical tests in the legend as the following sentence: “All distributions in panel d and e had a p-value of less than 0.0001 for one sample t-test against zero.” One sample t-tests were performed because what is plotted already represents each atlas’ differences to the glr-1 25 dataset atlas, we didn’t think the statistical analyses between the other atlases would add significant value.

      1. Figure 4, no asterisks are shown in the figure so it is possible to remove the sentence in the legend describing what the asterisk stands for.

      Thank you. We made the necessary changes.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Comparison with deep learning approaches could be more nuanced and structured, the authors (prior) approach extended here combines a specific set of comparative relationship measurements with a general optimization approach for matching based on comparative expectations. Other measurements could be used whether explicit (like neighbor expectations) or learned differences in embeddings. These alternate measurements would both need to be extensively re-calibrated for different sets of cells but might provide significant performance gains. In addition deep learning approaches don't solve the optimization part of the matching problem, so the authors approach seems to bring something strong to the table even if one is committed to learned methods (necessary I suspect for human level performance in denser cell sets than the relatively small number here). A more complete discussion of these themes might better frame the impact of the work and help readers think about the advantages and disadvantages or different methods for their own data.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this point. We apologize perhaps not making the point clearer in the original submission. This extension of the original work (Chaudhary et al) is not changing the CRF-based framework, but only augmenting the approach with a better defined set of axes (solely because in multicell and not whole-brain datasets, the sparsity of neurons degrades the axis definition and consequently the neuron ID predictions). We are not fundamentally changing the framework, and therefore all the advantages (over registration-based approaches for example) also apply here. The other purpose of this paper is to demonstrate a couple of use-cases for gene expression analysis, which is common in studies in C. elegans (and other organisms). We hope that by showing a use-case others can see how this approach is useful for their own applications.

      We have clarified these points in the paper (page 18). “The fundamental framework has not been changed from CRF_ID 1.0, and therefore the advantages of CRF_ID outlined in the original work apply for CRF_ID 2.0 as well.”

      The atribution of anatomical differences to strain is interesting, but seems purely speculative, and somewhat unlikely. I would suspect the fundamentally more difficult nature of aligning N items to M>>N items in an atlas accounts for the differences in using the neuroPAL vs custom atlas here. If this is what is meant, it could be stated more clearly.

      It is important to note that the same neuron candidate list (listed in methods) was used for all atlases, so there is no difference among the atlases in terms of the number of cells in the query vs. candidate list. In other words, the same values for M and for N are used regardless of the reference atlas used.

      We have preliminary data indicating differences between the NeuroPAL and custom atlas. For instance, the NeuroPAL atlas scales smaller than the custom glr-1 atlas. Since direct comparisons of the different atlases are beyond the scope of this paper, we will leave the exact comparisons for future work. We suspect that the differences are from a combination of differences in anatomy and imaging conditions. While NeuroPAL atlas may not be exactly fitting for the custom dataset, it can serve as a good starting point for guesses when no custom atlases are available, as we have discussed earlier (response to Public Comments from Reviewer 1 Point 1). As explained earlier, we have added these discussions in the paper (see page 18).

      I was also left wondering if the random removal of landmarks had to be adjusted in this work given it is (potentially) helping cope with not just occasional weak cells but the systematic loss of most of the cells in the atlas. If the parameters of this part of the algorithm don't influence the success for N to M>>N alignment (here when the neuroPAL or OpenWorm atlas is used) this seems interesting in itself and worth discussing. Conversely, if these parameters were opitmized for the matched atlas and used for the others, this would seem to bias performance results.

      We may have failed to make this clear in the main text. As we have stated in our responses in the public review section, we do systematically limit the neuron labels in the candidate list to neurons that are known to be expressed by the promotor. The candidate list, which is kept consistent for all atlases, has more neurons than cells in the query, so it is always an N-to-M matching where M>N. We did not use landmarks, but such usage is possible and will only improve the matching.

      We have attempted to clarify these points in the manuscript. In the results section under “CRF_ID 2.0 for automatic cell annotation in multi-cell images,” we added the following sentence: “Note that a truncated candidate list can be used for subset-specific cell ID if the neuronal expression is known” (page 3). In the methods section, we added the following sentence: “For multi-cell neuron predictions on the glr-1 strain, a truncated atlas containing only the above 37 neurons was used to exclude neuron candidates that are irrelevant for prediction” (Page 20).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      We thank the reviewers for the detailed assessment of our work as well as their praise and constructive feedback which helped us to significantly improve our manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The inferior colliculus (IC) is the central auditory system's major hub. It integrates ascending brainstem signals to provide acoustic information to the auditory thalamus. The superficial layers of the IC ("shell" IC regions as defined in the current manuscript) also receive a massive descending projection from the auditory cortex. This auditory cortico-collicular pathway has long fascinated the hearing field, as it may provide a route to funnel "high-level" cortical signals and impart behavioral salience upon an otherwise behaviorally agnostic midbrain circuit.

      Accordingly, IC neurons can respond differently to the same sound depending on whether animals engage in a behavioral task (Ryan and Miller 1977; Ryan et al., 1984; Slee & David, 2015; Saderi et al., 2021; De Franceschi & Barkat, 2021). Many studies also report a rich variety of non-auditory responses in the IC, far beyond the simple acoustic responses one expects to find in a "low-level" region (Sakurai, 1990; Metzger et al., 2006; Porter et al., 2007). A tacit assumption is that the behaviorally relevant activity of IC neurons is inherited from the auditory cortico-collicular pathway. However, this assumption has never been tested, owing to two main limitations of past studies:

      (1) Prior studies could not confirm if data were obtained from IC neurons that receive monosynaptic input from the auditory cortex.

      (2) Many studies have tested how auditory cortical inactivation impacts IC neuron activity; the consequence of cortical silencing is sometimes quite modest. However, all prior inactivation studies were conducted in anesthetized or passively listening animals. These conditions may not fully engage the auditory cortico-collicular pathway. Moreover, the extent of cortical inactivation in prior studies was sometimes ambiguous, which complicates interpreting modest or negative results.

      Here, the authors' goal is to directly test if auditory cortex is necessary for behaviorally relevant activity in IC neurons. They conclude that surprisingly, task relevant activity in cortico-recipient IC neuron persists in absence of auditory cortico-collicular transmission. To this end, a major strength of the paper is that the authors combine a sound-detection behavior with clever approaches that unambiguously overcome the limitations of past studies.

      First, the authors inject a transsynaptic virus into the auditory cortex, thereby expressing a genetically encoded calcium indicator in the auditory cortex's postsynaptic targets in the IC. This powerful approach enables 2-photon Ca2+ imaging from IC neurons that unambiguously receive monosynaptic input from auditory cortex. Thus, any effect of cortical silencing should be maximally observable in this neuronal population. Second, they abrogate auditory cortico-collicular transmission using lesions of auditory cortex. This "sledgehammer" approach is arguably the most direct test of whether cortico-recipient IC neurons will continue to encode task-relevant information in absence of descending feedback. Indeed, their method circumvents the known limitations of more modern optogenetic or chemogenetic silencing, e.g. variable efficacy.

      I also see three weaknesses which limit what we can learn from the authors' hard work, at least in the current form. I want to emphasize that these issues do not reflect any fatal flaw of the approach. Rather, I believe that their datasets likely contain the treasure-trove of knowledge required to completely support their claims.

      (1) The conclusion of this paper requires the following assumption to be true: That the difference in neural activity between Hit and Miss trials reflects "information beyond the physical attributes of sound." The data presentation complicates asserting this assumption. Specifically, they average fluorescence transients of all Hit and all Miss trials in their detection task. Yet, Figure 3B shows that mice's d' depends on sound level, and since this is a detection task the smaller d' at low SPLs presumably reflects lower Hit rates (and thus higher Miss rates). As currently written, it is not clear if fluorescence traces for Hits arise from trials where the sound cue was played at a higher sound level than on Miss trials. Thus, the difference in neural activity on Hit and Miss trials could indeed reflect mice's behavior (licking or not licking). But in principle could also be explained by higher sound-evoked spike rates on Hit compared to Miss trials, simply due to louder click sounds. Indeed, the amplitude and decay tau of their indicator GCaMP6f is non-linearly dependent on the number and rate of spikes (Chen et al., 2013), so this isn't an unreasonable concern.

      (2) The authors' central claim effectively rests upon two analyses in Figures 5 and 6. The spectral clustering algorithm of Figure 5 identifies 10 separate activity patterns in IC neurons of control and lesioned mice; most of these clusters show distinct activity on averaged Hit and Miss trials. They conclude that although the proportions of neurons from control and lesioned mice in certain clusters deviates from an expected 50/50 split, neurons from lesioned mice are still represented in all clusters. A significant issue here is that in addition to averaging all Hits and Miss trials together, the data from control and lesioned mice are lumped for the clustering. There is no direct comparison of neural activity between the two groups, so the reader must rely on interpreting a row of pie charts to assess the conclusion. It's unclear how similar task relevant activity is between control and lesioned mice; we don't even have a ballpark estimate of how auditory cortex does or does not contribute to task relevant activity. Although ideally the authors would have approached this by repeatedly imaging the same IC neurons before and after lesioning auditory cortex, this within-subjects design may be unfeasible if lesions interfere with task retention. Nevertheless, they have recordings from hundreds to thousands of neurons across two groups, so even a small effect should be observable in a between-groups comparison.

      (3) In Figure 6, the authors show that logistic regression models predict whether the trial is a Hit or Miss from their fluorescence data. Classification accuracy peaks rapidly following sound presentation, implying substantial information regarding mice's actions. The authors further show that classification accuracy is reduced, but still above chance in mice with auditory cortical lesions. The authors conclude from this analysis task relevant activity persists in absence of auditory cortex. In principle I do not disagree with their conclusion.

      The weakness here is in the details. First, the reduction in classification accuracy of lesioned mice suggests that auditory cortex does nevertheless transmit some task relevant information, however minor it may be. I feel that as written, their narrative does not adequately highlight this finding. Rather one could argue that their results suggest redundant sources of task-relevant activity converging in the IC. Secondly, the authors conclude that decoding accuracy is impaired more in partially compared to fully lesioned mice. They admit that this conclusion is at face value counterintuitive, and provide compelling mechanistic arguments in the Discussion. However, aside from shaded 95% CIs, we have no estimate of variance in decoding accuracy across sessions or subjects for either control or lesioned mice. Thus we don't know if the small sample sizes of partial (n = 3) and full lesion (n = 4) groups adequately sample from the underlying population. Their result of Figure 6B may reflect spurious sampling from tail ends of the distributions, rather than a true non-monotonic effect of lesion size on task relevant activity in IC.

      Our responses to the ‘recommendations for the authors’ below lay out in detail how we addressed each comment and concern. Besides filling in key information about how our original analysis aimed at minimizing any potential impact of differences in sound level distributions - namely that trials used for decoding were limited to a subset of sound levels - and which was accidentally omitted in the original manuscript, we have now carried out several additional analyses.

      We would like to highlight one of these because it supplements both the clustering and decoding analysis that we conducted to compare hit and miss trial activity, and directly addresses what the reviewer identified as our work’s main weakness (a possible confound between animal behavior and sound level distributions) and the request for an analysis that operates at the level of single units rather than the population level. Specifically, we assessed, separately for each recorded neuron, whether there was a statistically significant difference in the magnitude of neural activity between hit and miss trials. This approach allowed us to fully balance the numbers of hit and miss trials at each sound level that were entered into the analysis. The results revealed that a large proportion (close to 50%) of units were task modulated, i.e. had significantly different response magnitudes between hit and miss trials, and that this proportion was not significantly different between lesioned and non-lesioned mice. We hope that this, together with the rest of our responses, convincingly demonstrates that the shell of the IC encodes mouse sound detection behavior even when top-down input from the auditory cortex is absent.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study takes a new approach to studying the role of corticofugal projections from auditory cortex to inferior colliculus. The authors performed two-photon imaging of cortico-recipient IC neurons during a click detection task in mice with and without lesions of auditory cortex. In both groups of animals, they observed similar task performance and relatively small differences in the encoding of task-response variables in the IC population. They conclude that non-cortical inputs to the IC provide can substantial task-related modulation, at least when AC is absent. Strengths:

      This study provides valuable new insight into big and challenging questions around top-down modulation of activity in the IC. The approach here is novel and appears to have been executed thoughtfully. Thus, it should be of interest to the community.

      Weaknesses: There are, however, substantial concerns about the interpretation of the findings and limitations to the current analysis. In particular, Analysis of single unit activity is absent, making interpretation of population clusters and decoding less interpretable. These concerns should be addressed to make sure that the results can be interpreted clearly in an active field that already contains a number of confusing and possibly contradictory findings.

      Our responses to the ‘recommendations for the authors’ below lay out in detail how we addressed each comment and concern. Several additional analyses have now been carried out including ones that operate at the level of single units rather than the population level, as requested by the reviewer. We would like to briefly highlight one here because it supplements both the clustering and decoding analysis that we conducted to compare hit and miss trial activity and directly addresses what the other reviewers identified as our work’s main weakness (a possible confound between animal behavior and sound level distributions). Specifically, we assessed, separately for each recorded neuron, whether there was a statistically significant difference in the magnitude of neural activity between hit and miss trials. This approach allowed us to fully balance the numbers of hit and miss trials at each sound level that were entered into the analysis. The results revealed that a large proportion (close to 50%) of units were task modulated, i.e. had significantly different response magnitudes between hit and miss trials, and that this proportion was not significantly different between lesioned and non-lesioned mice. We hope that this, together with the rest of our responses, convincingly demonstrates that the shell of the IC encodes mouse sound detection behavior even when top-down input from the auditory cortex is absent.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study aims to demonstrate that cortical feedback is not necessary to signal behavioral outcome to shell neurons of the inferior colliculus during a sound detection task. The demonstration is achieved by the observation of the activity of cortico-recipient neurons in animals which have received lesions of the auditory cortex. The experiment shows that neither behavior performance nor neuronal responses are significantly impacted by cortical lesions except for the case of partial lesions which seem to have a disruptive effect on behavioral outcome signaling. Strengths:

      The experimental procedure is based on state of the art methods. There is an in depth discussion of the different effects of auditory cortical lesions on sound detection behavior. Weaknesses:

      The analysis is not documented enough to be correctly evaluated. Have the authors pooled together trials with different sound levels for the key hit vs miss decoding/clustering analysis? If so, the conclusions are not well supported, as there are more misses for low sound levels, which would completely bias the outcome of the analysis. It would possible that the classification of hit versus misses actually only reflects a decoding of sound level based on sensory responses in the colliculus, and it would not be surprising then that in the presence or absence of cortical feedback, some neurons responds more to higher sound levels (hits) and less to lower sound levels (misses). It is important that the authors clarify and in any case perform an analysis in which the classification of hits vs misses is done only for the same sound levels. The description of feedback signals could be more detailed although it is difficult to achieve good temporal resolution with the calcium imaging technique necessary for targeting cortico-recipient neurons.

      Our responses to the ‘recommendations for the authors’ below lay out in detail how we addressed each comment and concern. Besides filling in key information about how our original analysis aimed at minimizing any potential impact of differences in sound level distributions - namely that trials used for decoding were limited to a subset of sound levels - and which was accidentally omitted in the original manuscript, we have now carried out several additional analyses to directly address what the reviewer identified as our work’s main weakness (a possible confound between animal behavior and sound level distributions). This includes an analysis in which we were able to demonstrate for one imaging session with a sufficiently large number of trials that limiting the trials entered into the decoding analysis to those from a single sound level did not meaningfully impact decoding accuracy. We would like to highlight another new analysis here because it supplements both the clustering and decoding analyses that we conducted to compare hit and miss trial activity and addresses the other reviewers’ request for an analysis that operates at the level of single units rather than the population level. Specifically, we assessed, separately for each recorded neuron, whether there was a statistically significant difference in the magnitude of neural activity between hit and miss trials. This approach allowed us to fully balance the numbers of hit and miss trials at each sound level that were entered into the analysis. The results revealed that a large proportion (close to 50%) of units were task modulated, i.e. had significantly different response magnitudes between hit and miss trials, and that this proportion was not significantly different between lesioned and non-lesioned mice. We hope that this, together with the rest of our responses, convincingly demonstrates that the shell of the IC encodes mouse sound detection behavior even when top-down input from the auditory cortex is absent.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Thank you for the opportunity to read your paper. I think the conclusion is exciting. Indeed, you indicate that perhaps contrary to many of our (untested) assumptions, task-relevant activity in the IC may persist in absence of auditory cortex.

      As mentioned in my public review: Despite my interest in the work, I also think that there are several opportunities to significantly strengthen your conclusions. I feel this point is important because your work will likely guide the efforts of future students and post-docs working on this topic. The data can serve as a beacon to move the field away from the (somewhat naïve) idea that the evolved forebrain imparts behavioral relevance upon an otherwise uncivilized midbrain. This knowledge will inspire a search for alternative explanations. Indeed, although you don't highlight it in your narrative, your results dovetail nicely with several studies showing task-relevant activity in more ventral midbrain areas that project to the IC (e.g., pedunculopontine nuclei; see work from Hikosaka in monkeys, and more recently in mice from Karel Svoboda's lab).

      Thanks for the kind words.

      These studies, in particular the work by Inagaki et al. (2022) outlining how the transformation of an auditory go signal into movement could be mediated via a circuit involving the PPN/MRN (which might rely on the NLL for auditory input) and the motor thalamus, are indeed highly relevant.

      We made the following changes to the manuscript text.

      Line 472:”...or that the auditory midbrain, thalamus and cortex are bypassed entirely if simple acousticomotor transformations, such as licking a spout in response to a sound, are handled by circuits linking the auditory brainstem and motor thalamus via pedunculopontine and midbrain reticular nuclei (Inagaki et al., 2022).”

      The beauty of the eLife experiment is that you are free to incorporate or ignore these suggestions. After all, it's your paper, not mine. Nevertheless, I hope you find my comments useful.<br /> First, a few suggestions to address my three comments in the public review.

      Suggestion for public comment #1: An easy way to address this issue is to average the neural activity separately for each trial outcome at each sound level. That way you can measure if fluorescence amplitude (or integral) varies as a function of mice's action rather than sound level. This approach to data organization would also open the door to the additional analyses for addressing comment #2, such as directly comparing auditory and putatively non-auditory activity in neurons recorded from control and lesioned mice.

      We have carried out additional analyses for distinguishing between the two alternative explanations of the data put forward by the reviewer: That the difference in neural activity between hit and miss trials reflects a) behavior or b) sound level (more precisely: differences in response magnitude arising from a higher proportion of high-sound-level trials in the hit trial group than in the miss trial group). If the data favored b), we would expect no difference in activity between hit and miss trials when plotted separately for each sound level. The new Figure 4 - figure supplement 1 indicates that this is not the case. Hit and miss trial activity are clearly distinct even when plotted separately for different sound levels, confirming that this difference in activity reflects the animals’ behavior rather than sensory information.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 214: “While averaging across all neurons cannot capture the diversity of responses, the averaged response profiles suggest that it is mostly trial outcome rather than the acoustic stimulus and neuronal sensitivity to sound level that shapes those responses (Figure 4 – figure supplement 1).”

      Additionally, we assessed for each neuron separately whether there was a significant difference between hit and miss trial activity and therefore whether the activity of the neuron could be considered “task-modulated”. To achieve this, we used equal numbers of hit and miss trials at each sound level to ensure balanced sound level distributions and thus rule out any potential confound between sound level distributions and trial outcome. This analysis revealed that the proportion of task-modulated neurons was very high (close to 50%) and not significantly different between lesioned and non-lesioned mice (Figure 6 - figure supplement 3).

      Changes to the manuscript.

      Line 217: “Indeed, close to half (1272 / 2649) of all neurons showed a statistically significant difference in response magnitude between hit and miss trials…”

      Line 307: “Although the proportion of individual neurons with distinct response magnitudes in hit and miss trials in lesioned mice did not differ from that in non-lesioned mice, it was significantly lower when separating out mice with partial lesions (Figure 6 – figure supplement 3).”

      Differences in the distributions of sound levels in the different trial types could also potentially confound the decoding into hit and miss trials. Our original analysis was actually designed to take this into account but, unfortunately, we failed to include sufficient details in the methods section.

      Changes to the manuscript.

      Line 710: “Rather than including all the trials in a given session, only trials of intermediate difficulty were used for the decoding analysis. More specifically, we only included trials across five sound levels, comprising the lowest sound level that exceeded a d’ of 1.5 plus the two sound levels below and above that level. That ensured that differences in sound level distributions would be small, while still giving us a sufficient number of trials to perform the decoding analysis.“

      In this context, it is worth bearing in mind that a) the decoding analysis was done on a frame-byframe basis, meaning that the decoding score achieved early in the trial has no impact on the decoding score at later time points in the trial, b) sound-driven activity predominantly occurs immediately after stimulus onset and is largely over about 1 s into the trial (see cluster 3, for instance, or average miss trial activity in Figure 4 – figure supplement 1), c) decoding performance of the behavioral outcome starts to plateau 500-1000 ms into the trial and remains high until it very gradually begins to decline after about 2 s into the trial. In other words, decoding performance remains high far longer than the stimulus would be expected to have an impact on the neurons’ activity. Therefore, we would expect any residual bias due to differences in the sound level distribution that our approach did not control for to be restricted to the very beginning of the trial and not to meaningfully impact the conclusions derived from the decoding analysis.

      Finally, we carried out an additional decoding analysis for one imaging session in which we had a sufficient number of trials to perform the analysis not only over the five (59, 62, 65, 68, 71 dB SPL) original sound levels, but also over a reduced range of three (62, 65, 68 dB SPL) sound levels, as well as a single (65 dB SPL) sound level (Figure 6 - figure supplement 1). The mean sound level differences between the hit trial distributions and miss trial distributions for these three conditions were 3.08, 1.01 and 0 dB, respectively. This analysis suggests that decoding performance is not meaningfully impacted by changing the range of sound levels (and sound level distributions), other than that including fewer sound levels means fewer trials and thus noisier decoding.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 287: ”...and was not meaningfully affected by differences in sound level distributions between hit and miss trials (Figure 6 – figure supplement 1).”

      Suggestion for public comment #2: Perhaps a solution would be to display example neuron activity in each cluster, recorded in control and lesioned mice. The reader could then visually compare example data from the two groups, and immediately grasp the conclusion that task relevant activity remains in absence of auditory cortex. Additionally, one possibility might be to calculate the difference in neural activity between Hit and Miss trials for each task-modulated neuron. Then, you could compare these values for neurons recorded in control and lesion mice. I feel like this information would greatly add to our understanding of cortico-collicular processing.

      I would also argue that it's perhaps more informative to show one (or a few) example recordings rather than averaging across all cells in a cluster. Example cells would give the reader a better handle on the quality of the imaging, and this approach is more standard in the field. Finally, it would be useful to show the y axis calibration for each example trace (e.g. Figure 5 supp 1). That is also pretty standard so we can immediately grasp the magnitude of the recorded signal.

      We agree that while the information we provided shows that neurons from lesioned and nonlesioned groups are roughly equally represented across the clusters, it does not allow the reader to appreciate how similar the activity profiles of neurons are from each of the two groups. However, picking examples can be highly subjective and thus potentially open to bias. We therefore opted instead to display, separately for lesioned and non-lesioned mice, the peristimulus time histograms of all neurons in each cluster, as well as the cluster averages of the response profiles (Figure 5 - figure supplement 3). This, we believe, convincingly illustrates the close correspondence between neural activity in lesioned and non-lesioned mice across different clusters. All our existing and new figures indicate the response magnitude either on the figures’ y-axis or via scale/color bars.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 254: “Furthermore, there was a close correspondence between the cluster averages of lesioned and non-lesioned mice (Figure 5 – figure supplement 3).”

      Furthermore, we’ve now included a video of the imaging data which, we believe, gives the reader a much better handle on the data quality than further example response profiles would.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 197: ”...using two-photon microscopy (Figure 4B, Video 1).”

      Suggestion for public comment #3: In absence of laborious and costly follow-up experiments to boost the sample size of partial and complete lesion groups, it may be more prudent to simply tone down the claims that lesion size differentially impacts decoding accuracy. The results of this analysis are not necessary for your main claims.

      Our new results on the proportions of ‘task-modulated’ neurons (Figure 6 - figure supplement 3) across different experimental groups show that there is no difference between non-lesioned and lesioned mice as a whole, but mice with partial lesions have a smaller proportion of taskmodulated neurons than the other two groups. While this corroborates the results of the decoding analysis, we certainly agree that the small sample size is a caveat that needs to be acknowledged.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 477: ”Some differences were observed for mice with only partial lesions of the auditory cortex.

      Those mice had a lower proportion of neurons with distinct response magnitudes in hit and miss trials than mice with (near-)complete lesions. Furthermore, trial outcomes could be read out with lower accuracy from these mice. While this finding is somewhat counterintuitive and is based on only three mice with partial lesions, it has been observed before that smaller lesions…”

      A few more suggestions unrelated to public review:

      Figure 1: This is somewhat of an oddball in this manuscript, and its inclusion is not necessary for the main point. Indeed, the major conclusion of Fig 1 is that acute silencing of auditory cortex impairs task performance, and thus optogenetic methods are not suitable to test your hypothesis. However, this conclusion is also easily supported from decades of prior work, and thus citations might suffice.

      We do not agree that these data can easily be substituted with citations of prior published work. While previous studies (Talwar et al., 2001, Li et al., 2017) have demonstrated the impact of acute pharmacological silencing on sound detection in rodents, pharmacological and optogenetic silencing are not equivalent. Furthermore, we are aware of only one published study (Kato et al., 2015) that investigated the impact of optogenetically perturbing auditory cortex on sound detection (others have investigated its impact on discrimination tasks). Kato et al. (2015) examined the effect of acute optogenetic silencing of auditory cortex on the ability of mice to detect the offsets of very long (5-9 seconds) sounds, which is not easily comparable to the click detection task employed by us. Furthermore, when presenting our work at a recent meeting and leaving out the optogenetics results due to time constraints, audience members immediately enquired whether we had tried an optogenetic manipulation instead of lesions. Therefore, we believe that these data represent a valuable piece of information that will be appreciated by many readers and have decided not to remove them from the manuscript.

      A worst case scenario is that Figure 1 will detract from the reader's assessment of experimental rigor. The data of 1C are pooled from multiple sessions in three mice. It is not clear if the signed-rank test compares performance across n = 3 mice or n = 13 sessions. If the latter, a stats nitpicker could argue that the significance might not hold up with a nested analysis considering that some datapoints are not independent of one another. Finally, the experiment does not include a control group, gad2-cre mice injected with a EYFP virus. So as presented, the data are equally compatible with the pessimistic conclusion that shining light into the brain impairs mice's licking. My suggestion is to simply remove Figure 1 from the paper. Starting off with Figure 3 would be stronger, as the rest of the study hinges upon the knowledge that control and lesion mice's behavior is similar.

      Instead of reporting the results session-wise and doing stats on the d’ values, we now report results per mouse and perform stats on the proportions of hits and false alarms separately for each mouse. The results are statistically significant for each mouse and suggest that the differences in d’ are primarily caused by higher false alarm rates during the optogenetic perturbation than in the control condition.

      Changes to manuscript.

      New Figure 1.

      We agree that including control mice not expressing ChR2 would be important for fully characterizing the optogenetic manipulation and that the lack of this control group should be acknowledged. However, in the context of this study, the outcome of performing this additional experiment would be inconsequential. We originally considered using an optogenetic approach to explore the contribution of cortical activity to IC responses, but found that this altered the animals’ sound detection behavior. Whether that change in behavior is due to activation of the opsin or simply due to light being shone on the brain has no bearing on the conclusion that this type of manipulation is unsuitable for determining whether auditory cortex is required for the choice-related activity that we recorded in the IC.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 106: ”Although a control group in which the auditory cortex was injected with an EYFP virus lacking ChR2 would be required to confirm that the altered behavior results from an opsindependent perturbation of cortical activity, this result shows that this manipulation is also unsuitable… ”

      Figure 2, comment #1: The micrograph of panel B shows the densest fluorescence in the central IC. You interpret this as evidence of retrograde labeling of central IC neurons that project to the shell IC. This is a nice finding, but perhaps a more relevant micrograph would be to show the actual injection site in the shell layers. The rest of Figure 2 documents the non-auditory cortical sources of forebrain feedback. Since non-auditory cortical neurons may or may not target distinct shell IC sub-circuits, it's important to know where the retrograde virus was injected. Stylistic comment: The flow of the panels is somewhat unorthodox. Panel A and B follow horizontally, then C and D follow vertically, followed by E-H in a separate column. Consider sequencing either horizontally or vertically to maximize the reader's experience.

      Figure 2, comment # 2: It would also be useful to show more rostral sections from these mice, perhaps as a figure supplement, if you have the data. I think there is a lot of value here given a recent paper (Olthof et al., 2019 Jneuro) arguing that the IC receives corticofugal input from areas more rostral to the auditory cortex. So it would be beneficial for the field to know if these other cortical sources do or do not represent likely candidates for behavioral modulation in absence of auditory cortex.

      Figure 2, comment #3: You have a striking cluster of retrogradely labeled PPC neurons, and I'm not sure PPC has been consistently reported as targeting the IC. It would be good to confirm that this is a "true" IC projection as opposed to viral leakage into the SC. Indeed, Figure 2, supplement 2 also shows some visual cortex neurons that are retrogradely labeled. This has bearing on the interpretations, because choice-related activity is rampant in PPC, and thus could be a potential source of the task relevant activity that persists in your recordings. This could be addressed as the point above, by showing the SC sections from these same mice.

      All IC injections were made under visual guidance with the surface of the IC and adjacent brain areas fully exposed after removal of the imaging window. Targeting the IC and steering clear of surrounding structures, including the SC, was therefore relatively straightforward.

      We typically observed strong retrograde labeling in the central nucleus after viral injections into the dorsal IC and, given the moderate injection volume (~50 nL at each of up to three sites), it was also typical to see spatially fairly confined labeling at the injection sites. For the mouse shown in Figure 2, we do not have further images of the IC. This was one of the earliest mice to be included in the study and we did not have access to an automatic slide scanner at the time. We had to acquire confocal images in a ‘manual’ and very time-consuming manner and therefore did not take further IC images for this mouse. We have now included, however, a set of images spanning the whole IC and the adjacent SC sections for the mouse for which we already show sections in Figure 2 - figure supplement 2. These were added as Figure 2 - figure supplement 3A to the manuscript. These images show that the injections were located in the caudal half of the IC and that there was no spillover into the SC - close inspection of those sections did not reveal any labeled cell bodies in the SC. Furthermore, we include as Figure 2 - figure supplement 3B a dozen additional rostral cortical sections of the same mouse illustrating corticocollicular neurons in regions spanning visual, parietal, somatosensory and motor cortex. Given the inclusion of the IC micrographs in the new supplementary figure, we removed panel B from Figure 2. This should also make it easier for the reader to follow the sequencing of the remaining panels.

      Changes to manuscript.

      New Figure 2 - figure supplement 3.

      Line 159: “After the experiments, we injected a retrogradely-transported viral tracer (rAAV2-retrotdTomato) into the right IC to determine whether any corticocollicular neurons remained after the auditory cortex lesions (Figure 2, Figure 2 – figure supplement 2, Figure 2 – figure supplement 3). The presence of retrogradely-labeled corticocollicular neurons in non-temporal cortical areas (Figure 2) was not the result of viral leakage from the dorsal IC injection sites into the superior colliculus (Figure 2 – figure supplement 3).”

      Line 495: “...projections to the IC, such as those originating from somatosensory cortical areas (Lohse et al., 2021; Lesicko et al., 2016) and parietal cortex may have contributed to the response profiles that we observed.

      Figure 5 (see also public review point #2): I am not convinced that this unsupervised method yields particularly meaningful clusters; a grain of salt should be provided to the reader. For example, Clusters 2, 5, 6, and 7 contain neurons that pretty clearly respond with either short latency excitation or inhibition following the click sound on Hits. I would argue that neurons with such diametrically opposite responses should not be "classified" together. You can see the same issue in some of Namboodiri/Stuber's clustering (their Figure 1). It might be useful to make it clear to the reader that these clusters can reflect idiosyncrasies of the algorithm, the behavior task structure, or both.

      We agree.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 666: “While clustering is a useful approach for organizing and visualizing the activity of large and heterogeneous populations of neurons, we need to be mindful that, given continuous distributions of response properties, the locations of cluster boundaries can be somewhat arbitrary and/or reflect idiosyncrasies of the chosen method and thus vary from one algorithm to another. We employed an approach very similar to that described in Namboodiri et al. (2019) because it is thought to produce stable results in high-dimensional neural data (Hirokawa et al. 2019).”

      Methods:

      How was a "false alarm" defined? Is it any lick happening during the entire catch trial, or only during the time period corresponding to the response window on stimulus trials?

      The response window was identical for catch and stimulus trials and a false alarm was defined as licking during the response window of a catch trial.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 598: “During catch trials, neither licking (‘false alarm’) during the 1.5-second response window …”

      L597 and so forth: What's the denominator in the conversion from the raw fluorescence traces into DF/F? Did you take the median or mode fluorescence across a chunk of time? Baseline subtract average fluorescence prior to click onset? Similarly, please provide some more clarification as to how neuropil subtraction was achieved. This information will help us understand how the classifier can decode trial outcome from data prior to sound onset.

      Signal processing did not involve the subtraction of a pre-stimulus period.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 629: ”Neuropil extraction was performed using default suite2p parameters (https://suite2p.readthedocs.io/en/latest/settings.html), neuropil correction was done using a coefficient of 0.7, and calcium ΔF/F signals were obtained by using the median over the entire fluorescence trace as F0. To remove slow fluctuations in the signal, a baseline of each neuron’s entire trace was calculated by Gaussian filtering in addition to minimum and maximum filtering using default suite2p parameters. This baseline was then subtracted from the signal.”

      Was the experimenter blinded to the treatment group during the behavior experiments? If not, were there issues that precluded blinding (limited staffing owing to lab capacity restrictions during the pandemic)? This is important to clarify for the sake of rigor and reproducibility.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 574: “The experimenters were not blinded to the treatment group, i.e. lesioned or non-lesioned, but they were blind to the lesion size both during the behavior experiments and most of the data processing.”

      Minor:

      L127-128: "In order to test...lesioned the auditory cortex bilaterally in 7 out of 16 animals". I would clarify this by changing the word animals to "mice" and 7 out of 16 by stating n = 9 and n = 7 are control and lesion groups, respectively.

      Agreed.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 129: “...compared the performance of mice with bilateral lesions of the auditory cortex (n = 7) with non-lesioned controls (n = 9)”

      L225-226: You rule out self-generated sounds as a likely source of behavioral modulation by citing Nate Sawtell's paper in the DCN. However, Stephen David's lab suggested that in marmosets, post sound activity in central IC may in fact reflect self-generated sounds during licking. I suggest addressing this with a nod to SVD's work (Singla et al., 2017; but see Shaheen et al., 2021).

      Agreed.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 243: “(Singla et al., 2017; but see Shaheen et al., 2021)”

      Line 238 - 239: You state that proportions only deviate greater than 10% for one of the four statistically significant clusters. Something must be unclear here because I don't understand: The delta between the groups in the significant clusters of Fig 5C is (from left to right) 20%, 20%, 38%, and 12%. Please clarify.

      Our wording was meant to convey that a deviation “from a 50/50 split” of 10% means that each side deviates from 50 by 10% resulting in a 40/60 (or 60/40) split. We agree that that has the potential to confuse readers and is not as clear as it could be and have therefore dropped the ambiguous wording.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 253: ”,..the difference between the groups was greater than 20% for only one of them.”

      L445: I looked at the cited Allen experiment; I'd be cautious with the interpretation here. A monosynaptic IC->striatum projection is news to me. I think Allen Institute used an AAV1-EGFP virus for these experiments, no? As you know, AAV1 is quite transsynaptic. The labeled fibers in striatum of that experiment may reflect disynaptic labeling of MGB neurons (which do project to striatum).

      Agreed. We deleted the reference to this Allen experiment.

      L650: Please define "network activity". Is this the fluorescence value for each ROI on each frame of each trial? Averaged fluorescence of each ROI per frame? Total frame fluorescence including neuropil? Depending on who you ask, each of these measures provides some meaningful readout of network activity, so clarification would be useful.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 707: “Logistic regression models were trained on the network activity of each session, i.e., the ΔF/F values of all ROIs in each session, to classify hit vs miss trials. This was done on a frame-by-frame basis, meaning that each time point (frame) of each session was trained separately.

      Figure 3 narrative or legend: Listing the F values for the anova would be useful. There is pretty clearly a main effect of training session for hits, but what about for the false alarms? That information is important to solidify the result, and would help more specialized readers interpret the d-prime plot in this figure.

      Agreed. There were significant main effects of training day for both hit rates and false alarm rates (as well as d’).

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 165: “The ability of the mice to learn and perform the click detection task was evident in increasing hit rates and decreasing false alarm rates across training days (Figure 3A, p < 0.01, mixed-design ANOVAs).”

      In summary, thank you for undertaking this work. Your conclusions are provocative, and thus will likely influence the field's direction for years to come.

      Thank you for those kind words and valuable and constructive feedback, which has certainly improved the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      MAJOR CONCERNS

      (1) (Fig. 5) What fraction of individual neurons actually encode task-related information in each animal group? How many neurons respond to sound? The clustering and decoding analyses are interesting, but they obscure these simple questions, which get more directly at the main questions of the study. Suggested approach: For a direct comparison of AC-lesioned and -non-lesioned animals, why not simply compare the mean difference between PSTH response for each neuron individually? To test for trial outcome effects, compare Hit and Miss trials (same stimulus, different behavior) and for sound response effects, compare Hit and False alarm trials (same behavior, different response). How do you align for time in the latter case when there's no stimulus? Align to the first lick event. The authors should include this analysis or explain why their approach of jumping right to analysis of clusters is justified.

      We have now calculated the fraction of neurons that encode trial outcome by comparing hit and miss trial activity. That fraction does not differ between non-lesioned animals and lesioned animals as a whole, but is significantly smaller in mice with partial lesions. The author’s suggestion of comparing hit and false alarm trial activity to assess sound responsiveness is problematic because hit trials involve reward delivery and consumption. Consequently, they are behaviorally very different from false alarm trials (not least because hit trials tend to contain much more licking). Therefore, we calculated the fraction of neurons that respond to the acoustic stimulus by comparing activity before and after stimulus onset in miss trials. We found no significant difference between the non-lesioned and lesioned mice or between subgroups.

      We have addressed these points with the following changes to the manuscript:

      Line 217: “Indeed, close to half (1272 / 2649) of all neurons showed a statistically significant difference in response magnitude between hit and miss trials, while only a small fraction (97 / 2649) exhibited a significant response to the sound.”

      Line 307: “Although the proportion of individual neurons with distinct response magnitudes in hit and miss trials in lesioned mice did not differ from that in non-lesioned mice, it was significantly lower when separating out mice with partial lesions (Figure 6 – figure supplement 3).”

      Line 648: “Analysis of task-modulated and sound-driven neurons. To identify individual neurons that produced significantly different response magnitudes in hit and miss trials, we calculated the mean activity for each stimulus trial by taking the mean activity over the 5 seconds following stimulus presentation and subtracting the mean activity over the 2 seconds preceding the stimulus during that same trial. A Mann-Whitney U test was then performed to assess whether a neuron showed a statistically significant difference (Benjamini-Hochberg adjusted p-value of 0.05) in response magnitude between hit and miss trials. The analysis was performed using equal numbers of hit and miss trials at each sound level to ensure balanced sound level distributions. If, for a given sound level, there were more hit than miss trials, we randomly selected a sample of hit trials (without substitution) to match the sample size for the miss trials and vice versa. Sounddriven neurons were identified by comparing the mean miss trial activity before and after stimulus presentation. Specifically, we performed a Mann-Whitney U test to assess whether there was a statistically significant difference (Benjamini-Hochberg adjusted p-value of 0.05) between the mean activity over the 2 seconds preceding the stimulus and the mean activity over the 1 second period following stimulus presentation.”

      Some more specific concerns about focusing only on cluster-level and population decoding analysis are included below.

      (2) (L 234) "larger field of view". Do task-related or lesion-dependent effects depend on the subregion of IC imaged? Some anatomists would argue that the IC shell is not a uniform structure, and concomitantly, task-related effects may differ between fields. Did coverage of IC subregions differ between experimental groups? Is there any difference in task related effects between subregions of IC? Or maybe all this work was carried out only in the dorsal area? The differences between lesioned and non-lesioned animals are relatively small, so this may not have a huge impact, but a more nuanced discussion that accounts for observed or potential (if not tested) differences between regions of the IC.

      The specific subregion coverage could also impact the decoding analysis (Fig 6), and if possible it might be worth considering an interaction between field of view and lesion size on decoding.

      Each day we chose a new imaging location to avoid recording the same neurons more than once and aimed to sample widely across the optically accessible surface of the IC. We typically stopped the experiment only when there were no more new areas to record from. In terms of the depth of the imaged neurons, we were limited by the fact that corticorecipient neurons become sparser with depth and that the signal available from the GCaMP6f labeling of the Ai95 mice becomes rapidly weaker with increasing distance from the surface. This meant that we recorded no deeper than 150 µm from the surface of the IC. Consequently, while there may have been some variability in the average rostrocaudal and mediolateral positioning of imaging locations from animal to animal due to differences between mice in how much of the IC surface was visible, cranial window positioning, and in neuronal labeling etc, our dataset is anatomically uniform in that all recorded neurons receive input from the auditory cortex and are located within 150 µm of the surface of the IC. Therefore, we think it highly unlikely that small sampling differences across animals could have a meaningful impact on the results.

      Given that there is no consensus as to where the border between the dorsal and external/lateral cortices of the IC is located and that it is typically difficult to find reliable anatomical reference points (the location of the borders between the IC and surrounding structures is not always obvious during imaging, i.e. a transition from a labeled area to a dark area near the edge of the cranial window could indicate a border with another structure, but also the IC surface sloping away from the window or simply an unlabeled area within the IC), we made no attempt to assign our recordings from corticorecipient neurons to specific subdivisions of the IC.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 195: “We then proceeded to record the activity of corticorecipient neurons within about 150 µm of the dorsal surface of the IC using two-photon microscopy (Figure 4B, Video 1).”

      Line 375: “We imaged across the optically accessible dorsal surface of the IC down to a depth of about 150 µm below the surface. Consequently, the neurons we recorded were located predominantly in the dorsal cortex. However, identifying the borders between different subdivisions of the IC is not straightforward and we cannot rule out the possibility that some were located in the lateral cortex.”

      (3) (L 482-483) "auditory cortex is not required for the task-related activity recording in IC neurons of mice performing a sound detection task". Most places in the text are clearer, but this statement is confusing. Yes, animals with lesions can have a "normal"-looking IC, but does that mean that AC does not strongly modulate IC during this behavior in normal animals? The authors have shown convincingly that subcortical areas can both shape behavior and modulate IC normally, but AC may still be required for IC modulation in non-lesioned animals. Given the complexity of this system, the authors should make sure they summarize their results consistently and clearly throughout the manuscript.

      The reviewer raises an important point. What we have shown is that corticorecipient dorsal IC neurons in mice without auditory cortex show neural activity during a sound detection task that is largely indistinguishable from the activity of mice with an intact auditory cortex. In lesioned mice, the auditory cortex is thus not required. Whether the IC activity of the non-lesioned group can be shaped by input from the auditory cortex in a meaningful way in other contexts, such as during learning, is a question that our data cannot answer.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 508: "While modulation of IC activity by this descending projection has been implicated in various functions, most notably in the plasticity of auditory processing, we have shown in mice performing a sound detection task that IC neurons show task-related activity in the absence of auditory cortical input."

      LESSER CONCERNS

      (L. 106-107) "Optogenetic suppression of cortical activity is thus also unsuitable..." It appears that behavior is not completely abolished by the suppression. One could also imagine using a lower dose of muscimol for partial inactivation of AC feedback. When some behavior persists, it does seem possible to measure task-related changes in the IC. This may not be necessary for the current study, but the authors should consider how these transient methods could be applied usefully in the Discussion. What about inactivation of cortical terminals in the IC? Is that feasible?

      Our argument is not that acute manipulations are unsuitable because they completely abolish the behavior, but because they significantly alter the behavior. Although it would not be trivial to precisely measure the extent of pharmacological cortical silencing in behaving mice that have been fitted with a midbrain window, it should be possible to titrate the size of a muscimol injection to achieve partial silencing of the auditory cortex that does not fully abolish the ability to detect sounds. However, such an outcome would likely render the data uninterpretable. If no effect on IC activity was observed, it would not be possible to conclude whether this was due to the fact that the auditory cortex was only partially silenced or that projections from the auditory cortex have no influence on the recorded IC activity. Similarly, if IC activity was altered, it would not be possible to say whether this was due to altered descending modulation resulting from the (partially) silenced auditory cortex or to the change in behavior, which would likely be reflected in the choice-related activity measured in the IC.

      Silencing of corticocollicular axons in the IC is potentially a more promising approach and we did devote a considerable amount of time and effort to establishing a method that would allow us to simultaneously image IC neurons while silencing corticocollicular axons, trying both eNpHR3.0 and Jaws with different viral labeling approaches and mouse lines. However, we ultimately abandoned those attempts because we were not convinced that we had achieved sufficient silencing or that we would be able to convincingly verify this. Furthermore, axonal silencing comes with its own pitfalls and the interpretation of its consequences is not straightforward. Given that our discussion already contains a section (line 421) on axonal silencing, we do not feel there would be any benefit in adding to that.

      (Figure 1). Can the authors break down the performance for FA and HR, as they do in Fig. 3? It would be helpful to know what aspect of behavior is impaired by the transient inactivation.

      Good point. Figure 1 has been updated to show the results separately for hit rates, false alarms and d’. The new figure indicates that the change in d’ is primarily a consequence of altered false alarm rates. Please also see our response to a related comment by reviewer #1.

      Changes to manuscript.

      New figure 1.

      (Figure 4 legend). Minor: Please clarify, what is time 0 in panel C? Time of click presentation?

      Yes, that is correct.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 209: ”Vertical line at time 0 s indicates time of click presentation.”

      (L. 228-229). There has been a report of lick and other motor related activity in the IC - e.g., see Shaheen, Slee et al. (J Neurosci 2021), the timing of which suggests that some of it may be acoustically driven.

      Thanks for pointing this out. Shaheen et al., 2021 should certainly have been cited by us in this context as well as in other parts of the manuscript.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 243: “(Singla et al., 2017; but see Shaheen et al., 2021)”

      Also, have the authors considered measuring a peri-lick response? The difference between hit and miss trials could be perceptual or it could reflect differences in motor activity. This may be hard to tease apart, but, for example, one can test whether activity is stronger on trials with many licks vs. few licks?

      (L. 261) "Behavior can be decoded..." similar or alternative to the previous question of evoked activity, can you decode lick events from the population activity?

      The difference between hit and miss trial activity almost certainly partially reflects motor activity associated with licking. This was stated in the Discussion, but to make that point more explicitly, we now include a plot of average false alarm trial activity, i.e. trials without sound (catch trials) in which animals licked (but did not receive a reward).

      Given a sufficient number of catch trials, it should be possible to decode false alarm and correct rejection trials. However, our experiment was not designed with that in mind and contains a much smaller number of catch trials than stimulus trials (approximately one tenth the number of stimulus trials), so we have not attempted this.

      Changes to manuscript.

      New Figure 4 - figure supplement 1.

      (L. 315) "Pre-stimulus activity..." Given reports of changes in activity related to pupil-indexed arousal in the auditory system, do the authors by any chance have information about pupil size in these datasets?

      Given that all recordings were performed in the dark, fluctuations in pupil diameter were relatively small. Therefore, we have not made any attempt to relate pupil diameter to any of the variables assessed in this manuscript.

      (L. 412) "abolishes sound detection". While not exactly the same task, the authors might comment on Gimenez et al (J Neurophys 2015) which argued that temporary or permanent lesioning of AC did not impair tone discrimination. More generally, there seems to be some disagreement about what effects AC lesions have on auditory behavior.

      Thank you for this suggestion. Gimenez et al. (2015) investigated the ability of freely moving rats to discriminate sounds (and, in addition, how they adapt to changes in the discrimination boundary). Broadly consistent with later reports by Ceballo et al. (2019) (mild impairment) and O’Sullivan et al. (2019) (no impairment), Gimenez et al. (2015) reported that discrimination performance is mildly impaired after lesioning auditory cortex. Where the results of Gimenez et al. (2015) stand out is in the comparatively mild impairments that were seen in their task when they used muscimol injections, which contrast with the (much) larger impairments reported by others (e.g. Talwar et al., 2001; Li et al., 2017; Jaramillo and Zador, 2014).

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 433: ”However, transient pharmacological silencing of the auditory cortex in freely moving rats (Talwar et al., 2001), as well as head-fixed mice (Li et al., 2017), completely abolishes sound detection (but see Gimenez et al., 2015).”

      (L. 649) "... were generally separable" Is the claim here that the clusters are really distinct from each other? This is unexpected, and it might be helpful if the authors could show this result in a figure.

      The half-sentence that this comment refers to has been removed from the methods section. Please also see a related comment by reviewer #1 which prompted us to add the following to the methods section.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 666: “While clustering is a useful approach for organizing and visualizing the activity of large and heterogeneous populations of neurons we need to be mindful that, given continuous distributions of response properties, the locations of cluster boundaries can be somewhat arbitrary and/or reflect idiosyncrasies of the chosen method and thus vary from one algorithm to another. We employed an approach very similar to that described in Namboodiri et al. (2019) because it is thought to produce stable results in high-dimensional neural data (Hirokawa et al. 2019).”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The authors must absolutely clarify if the hit versus misses decoding and clustering analysis is done for a single sound level or for multiple sound levels (what is the fraction of trials for each sound leve?). If the authors did it for multiple sound levels they should redo all analyses sound-level by sound-level, or for a single sound level if there is one that dominates. No doubt that there is information about the trial outcome in IC, but it should not be over-estimated by a confound with stimulus information.

      This is an important point. The original clustering analysis was carried out across different sound levels. We have now carried out additional analysis for distinguishing between two alternative explanations of the data, which were also raised by reviewer #1. – that the difference in neural activity between hit and miss trials could reflect a) the animals’ behavior or b) relatively more hit trials at higher sound levels, which would be expected to produce stronger responses. If the data favored b), we would expect no difference in activity between hit and miss trials when plotted separately for different sound levels. The new figure 4 - figure supplement 1 indicates that that is not the case. Hit and miss trial activity are clearly distinct even when plotted separately for different sound levels, confirming that this difference in activity reflects the animals’ behavior rather than sensory information.

      We made the following changes to manuscript.

      Line 214: “While averaging across all neurons cannot capture the diversity of responses, the averaged response profiles suggest that it is mostly trial outcome rather than the acoustic stimulus and neuronal sensitivity to sound level that shapes those responses (Figure 4 – figure supplement 1).”

      Differences in the distributions of sound levels in the different trial types could also potentially confound the decoding into hit and miss trials. Our analysis actually aimed to take this into account but, unfortunately, we failed to include sufficient details in the methods section.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 710: “Rather than including all the trials in a given session, only trials of intermediate difficulty were used for the decoding analysis. More specifically, we only included trials across five sound levels, comprising the lowest sound level that exceeded a d’ of 1.5 plus the two sound levels below and above that level. That ensured that differences in sound level distributions would be small, while still giving us a sufficient number of trials to perform the decoding analysis.“

      In this context, it is worth bearing in mind that a) the decoding analysis was done on a frame-byframe basis, meaning that the decoding score achieved early in the trial has no impact on the decoding score at later time points in the trial, b) sound-driven activity predominantly occurs immediately after stimulus onset and is largely over about 1 s into the trial (see cluster 3, for instance, or average miss trial activity in figure 4 - figure supplement 1), c) decoding performance of the behavioral outcome starts to plateau 500-1000 ms into the trial and remains high until it very gradually begins to decline after about 2 s into the trial. In other words, decoding performance remains high far longer than the stimulus would be expected to have an impact on the neurons’ activity. Therefore, we would expect any residual bias due to differences in the sound level distribution that our approach did not control for to be restricted to the very beginning of the trial and not to meaningfully impact the conclusions derived from the decoding analysis.

      Furthermore, we carried out an additional decoding analysis for one imaging session in which we had a sufficient number of trials to perform the analysis not only over the five (59, 62, 65, 68, 71 dB SPL) original sound levels, but also over a reduced range of three (62, 65, 68 dB SPL) sound levels, as well as a single (65 dB SPL) sound level (Figure 6 - figure supplement 1). The mean sound level difference between the hit trial distributions and miss trial distributions for these three conditions were 3.08, 1.01 and 0 dB, respectively. This analysis suggests that decoding performance is not meaningfully impacted by changing the range of sound levels (and sound level distributions) other than that including fewer sound levels means fewer trials and thus noisier decoding.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 287: ”...and was not meaningfully affected by differences in sound level distributions between hit and miss trials (Figure 6 – figure supplement 1).”

      Finally, in order to supplement the decoding analysis, we determined for each individual neuron whether there was a significant difference between the average hit and average miss trial activity. Note that this was done using equal numbers of hit and miss trials at each sound level to ensure balanced sound level distributions and to rule out any potential confound of sound level. This revealed that the proportion of neurons containing “information about trial outcome” was generally very high, close to 50% on average, and not significantly different between lesioned and non-lesioned mice.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 307: “Although the proportion of individual neurons with distinct response magnitudes in hit and miss trials in lesioned mice did not differ from that in non-lesioned mice, it was significantly lower when separating out mice with partial lesions (Figure 6 – figure supplement 3).”

      Line 648: “Analysis of task-modulated and sound-driven neurons. To identify individual neurons that produced significantly different response magnitudes in hit and miss trials, we calculated the mean activity for each stimulus trial by taking the mean activity over the 5 seconds following stimulus presentation and subtracting the mean activity over the 2 seconds preceding the stimulus during that same trial. A Mann-Whitney U test was then performed to assess whether a neuron showed a statistically significant difference (Benjamini-Hochberg adjusted p-value of 0.05) in response magnitude between hit and miss trials. The analysis was performed using equal numbers of hit and miss trials at each sound level to ensure balanced sound level distributions. If, for a given sound level, there were more hit than miss trials we randomly selected a sample of hit trials (without substitution) to match the sample size for the miss trials and vice versa. ”

      (2) I have the feeling that the authors do not exploit fully the functional data recorded with two-imaging. They identify several cluster but do not describe their functional differences. For example, cluster 3 is obviously mainly sensory driven as it is not modulated by outcome. This could be mentioned. This could also be used to rule out that trial outcome is the results of insufficient sensory inputs. Could this cluster be used to predict trial outcome at the onset response? Could it be used to predict the presence of the sound, and with which accuracy. The authors discuss a bit the different cluster type, but in a very elusive manner. I recognize that one should be careful with the use of signal analysis methods in calcium imaging but a simple linear deconvolution of the calcium dynamic who help to illustrate the conclusions that the authors propose based on peak responses. It would also be very interesting to align the clusters responses (deconvolved) to the timing of licking and rewards event to check if some clusters do not fire when mice perform licks before the sound comes. It would help clarify if the behavioral signals described here require both the presence of the sound and the behavioral action or are just the reflection of the motor command. As noted by the authors, some clusters have late peak responses (2 and 5). However, 2 and 5 are not equivalent and a deconvolution would evidence that much better. 2 has late onset firing. 5 has early onset but prolonged firing.

      We agree with the reviewer’s statement that “cluster 3 is obviously mainly sensory driven”. In the Discussion we refer to cluster 3 as having a “largely behaviorally invariant response profile to the auditory stimulus” (line X), which is consistent with the statement of the reviewer. With regard to the reviewer’s suggestion to describe the “functional differences” between the clusters, we would like to refer to the subsequent three sentences of the same paragraph in which we speculate on the cognitive and behavioral variables that may underlie the response profiles of different clusters. Given the limitations imposed by the task structure, we do not think it is justified to expand on this.

      We have added an additional analysis in order to explicitly address the question of which neurons are sound responsive (please also see response to point 3 below and to point 1 of reviewer #2). That trial outcome could be predicted on the basis of only the sound-responsive neurons’ activity during the initial period of the trial (“predict trial outcome at the onset response”) is unlikely given their small number (only 97 of 2649 neurons show a statistically significant sound-evoked response) and given that only a minority (42/98) of those sound-driven neurons are also modulated by trial outcome within that initial trial period (i.e. 0-1s after stimulus onset; data not shown).

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 219: “..., while only a small fraction (97 / 2649) exhibited a significant response to the sound.”

      Line 658: “Sound-driven neurons were identified by comparing the mean miss trial activity before and after stimulus presentation. Specifically, we performed a Mann-Whitney U test to assess whether there was a statistically significant difference (Benjamini-Hochberg adjusted p-value of 0.05) between the mean activity over the 2 seconds preceding the stimulus and the mean activity over the 1 second period following stimulus presentation. This analysis was performed using miss trials with click intensities from 53 dB SPL to 65 dB SPL (many sessions contained very few or no miss trials at higher sound levels).”

      While calcium traces represent an indirect measure of neural activity, deconvolution does not necessarily provide an accurate picture of the spiking underlying those traces and has the potential to introduce additional problems. For instance, deconvolution algorithms tend to perform poorly at inferring the spiking of inhibited neurons (Vanwalleghem et al., 2021). Given that suppression is such a prominent feature of IC activity and is evident both in our calcium data as well as in the electrophysiology data of others (Franceschi and Barkat, 2021), we decided against using deconvolved spikes in our analyses. See also the side-by-side comparison below of the hit and miss trial activity of one example neuron based on either the calcium trace (left) or deconvolved spikes (right) (extracted using the OASIS algorithm (Friedrich et al., 2017) incorporated into suite2p (Pachitariu et al., 2016).

      Author response image 1.

      (3) Along the same line, the very small proportion of really sensory driven neurons (cluster 3) is not discussed. Is it what on would expect in typical shell or core IC neurons?

      As requested by reviewer #2 and mentioned in response to the previous point, we have now quantified the number of neurons in the dataset that produced significant responses to sound (97 / 2649). For a given imaging area, the fraction of neurons that show a statistically significant change in neural activity following presentation of a click of between 53 dB SPL and 65 dB SPL rarely exceeded ten percent. While that number is low, it is not necessarily surprising given the moderate intensity and very short duration of the stimuli. For comparison: Using the same transgenics, labeling approach and imaging setup and presenting 200-ms long pure tones at 60 dB SPL with frequencies between 2 kHz and 64 kHz, we typically find that between a quarter and a third of neurons in a given imaging area exhibit a statistically significant response (data not shown).

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 219: “..., while only a small fraction (97 / 2649) exhibited a significant response to the sound.”

      Line 658: “Sound-driven neurons were identified by comparing the mean miss trial activity before and after stimulus presentation. Specifically, we performed a Mann-Whitney U test to assess whether there was a statistically significant difference (Benjamini-Hochberg adjusted p-value of 0.05) between the mean activity over the 2 seconds preceding the stimulus and the mean activity over the 1 second period following stimulus presentation. This analysis was performed using miss trials with click intensities from 53 dB SPL to 65 dB SPL (many sessions contained very few or no miss trials at higher sound levels).”

      Line 220: “While the number of sound-responsive neurons is low, it is not necessarily surprising given the moderate intensity and very short duration of the stimuli. For comparison: Using the same transgenics, labeling approach and imaging setup and presenting 200-ms long pure tones at 60 dB SPL with frequencies between 2 kHz and 64 kHz, we typically find that between a quarter and a third of neurons in a given imaging area exhibit a statistically significant response (data not shown).”

      (4) In the discussion, the interpretation of different transient and permanent cortical inactivation experiment is very interesting and well balanced given the complexity of the issue. There is nevertheless a comment that is difficult to follow. The authors state:

      If cortical lesioning results in a greater weight being placed on the activity in spared subcortical circuits for perceptual judgements, we would expect the accuracy with which trial-by-trial outcomes could be read out from IC neurons to be greater in mice without auditory cortex. However, that was not the case.

      However, there is no indication that the activity they observe in shell IC is causal to the behavioral decision and likely it is not. There is also no indication that the behavioral signals seen by the authors reflect the weight put on the subcortical pathway for behavior. I find this argument handwavy and would remove it.

      While we are happy to amend this section, we would not wish to remove it because a) we believe that the point we are trying to make here is an important and reasonable one and b) because it is consistent with the reviewer’s comment. Hopefully, the following will make this clearer: In order for the mouse to make a perceptual judgment and act upon it - in the context of our task, hearing a sound and then licking a spout - auditory information needs to be read out and converted into a motor command. If the auditory cortex normally plays a key role in such perceptual judgments, cortical lesions would require the animal to base its decisions on the information available from the remaining auditory structures, potentially including the auditory midbrain. This might result in a greater correspondence between the mouse’s behavior and the neural activity in those structures. That we did not observe this outcome for the IC could mean that the auditory cortex did not contribute to the relevant perceptual judgments (sound detection) in the first place. Therefore, no reweighting of signals from the other structures is necessary. Alternatively, greater weight might be placed exclusively on structures other than the auditory midbrain, e.g. the thalamus. The latter would imply that the contribution of the IC remains the same. This includes the possibility that the IC shell does not play a causal role in the behavioral decision – in either control mice or mice with cortical lesions – as suggested by the reviewer.

      Changes to manuscript.

      Line 471: “This could imply that, following cortical lesions, greater weight is placed on structures other than the IC, with the thalamus being the most likely candidate, ..”

      (5) In Fig. 5 the two colors used in B and C are the same although they describe different categories.

      The dark green and ‘deep orange’ we used to distinguish between non-lesioned and lesioned in Figure 5C are slightly lighter than the colors used to distinguish between these two categories in other figures and therefore might be more easily confused with the blue and red in Figure 5B. This has been changed.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      We thank the Reviewers and Editors for the constructive comments, which we believe have significantly improved the quality of our manuscript.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) With respect to the predictions, the authors propose that the subjects, depending on their linguistic background and the length of the tone in a trial, can put forward one or two predictions. The first is a short-term prediction based on the statistics of the previous stimuli and identical for both groups (i.e. short tones are expected after long tones and vice versa). The second is a long-term prediction based on their linguistic background. According to the authors, after a short tone, Basque speakers will predict the beginning of a new phrasal chunk, and Spanish speakers will predict it after a long tone.

      In this way, when a short tone is omitted, Basque speakers would experience the violation of only one prediction (i.e. the short-term prediction), but Spanish speakers will experience the violation of two predictions (i.e. the short-term and long-term predictions), resulting in a higher amplitude MMN. The opposite would occur when a long tone is omitted. So, to recap, the authors propose that subjects will predict the alternation of tone durations (short-term predictions) and the beginning of new phrasal chunks (long-term predictions).

      The problem with this is that subjects are also likely to predict the completion of the current phrasal chunk. In speech, phrases are seldom left incomplete. In Spanish is very unlikely to hear a function-word that is not followed by a content-word (and the opposite happens in Basque). On the contrary, after the completion of a phrasal chunk, a speaker might stop talking and a silence might follow, instead of the beginning of a new phrasal chunk.

      Considering that the completion of a phrasal chunk is more likely than the beginning of a new one, the prior endowed to the participants by their linguistic background should make us expect a pattern of results actually opposite to the one reported here.

      We thank the Reviewer #1 for this pertinent comment and the opportunity to address this issue. A very similar concern was also raised by Reviewer #2. Below we try to clarify the motivations that led us to predict that the hypothesized long-term predictions should manifest at the onset (and not within or the end) of a perceptual chunk. 

      Reviewers #1 and #2 contest a critical assumption of our study i.e., the fact that longterm predictions should occur at the beginning of a rhythmic chunk as opposed to its completion. They also contest the prediction deriving from this view i.e., omitting the first sound in a perceptual chunk (short for Spanish, long for Basque) would lead to larger error responses than omitting a later element. They suggest an alternative view: the omission of tones at the end of a perceptual rhythmic chunk would evoke larger error responses than omissions at its onset, as subjects are more likely to predict the completion of the chunk than its beginning. This view predicts an interaction effect in the opposite direction of our findings. 

      While we acknowledge this as a plausible hypothesis, we believe that the current literature provides strong support for our view. Indeed, many studies in the rhythm and music perception literature have investigated the ERP responses to deviant sounds and omissions placed at different positions within rhythmic patterns (e.g., Ladinig et al., 2009; Bouwer et al., 2016; Brochard et al., 2003; Potter et al., 2009; Yabe et al., 2001). For instance, Lading et al., 2009 presented participants with metrical rhythmical sound sequences composed of eight tones. In some deviant sequences, the first or a later tone was omitted. They found that earlier omissions elicited earlier and higher-amplitude MMN responses than later omissions (irrespective of attention). Overall, this and other studies showed that the amplitude of ERP responses are larger when deviants occur at positions that are expected to be the “start” of a perceptual group - “on the beat” in musical terms - and decline toward the end of the chunk. According to some of these studies, the first element of a chunk is particularly important to track the boundaries of temporal sequences, which is why more predictive resources are invested at that position. We believe that this body of evidence provides robust bases for our hypotheses and the directionality of our predictions.

      An additional point that should be considered concerns the amplitude of the prediction error response elicited by the omission. From a predictive coding perspective, the omission of the onset of a chunk should elicit larger error responses because the system is expecting the whole chunk (i.e., two tones/more acoustic information). On the other hand, the omission of the second tone - in the transition between two tones within the chunk - should elicit a smaller error response because the system is expecting only the missing tone (i.e. less acoustic information). 

      Given the importance of these points, we have now included them in the updated version of the paper, in which we try to better clarify the rationale behind our hypothesis (see Introduction section, around the 10th paragraph).

      (2) The authors report an interaction effect that modulates the amplitude of the omission response, but caveats make the interpretation of this effect somewhat uncertain. The authors report a widespread omission response, which resembles the classical mismatch response (in MEG) with strong activations in sensors over temporal regions. Instead, the interaction found is circumscribed to four sensors that do not overlap with the peaks of activation of the omission response.

      We thank the Reviewer for this comment. As mentioned in the provisional response, the approach employed to identify the presence of an interaction effect was conservative: We utilized a non-parametric test on combined gradiometers data, without making a priori assumptions about the location of the effect, and employed small cluster thresholds (cfg.clusteralpha = 0.05) to increase the chances of detecting highly localized clusters with large effect sizes. The fact that the interaction effect arises in a relatively small cluster of sensors does not alter its statistical robustness. It should be also considered that in the present analyses we focused on planar gradiometer data that, compared to magnetometers and axial gradiometers, present more fine-grained spatial resolution and are more suited for picking up relatively small effects. 

      The partial overlap of the cluster with the activation peaks may simply reflect the fact that different sources contribute to the generation of the omission-MMN, which has been reported in several studies (e.g., Zhang et al., 2018; Ross & Hamm, 2020).  We value the Reviewer’s input and are grateful for the opportunity to address these considerations.

      Furthermore, the boxplot in Figure 2E suggests that part of the interaction effect might be due to the presence of two outliers (if removed, the effect is no longer significant). Overall, it is possible that the reported interaction is driven by a main effect of omission type which the authors report, and find consistently only in the Basque group (showing a higher amplitude omission response for long tones than for short tones). Because of these points, it is difficult to interpret this interaction as a modulation of the omission response.

      We thank the Reviewer for the comment and appreciate the opportunity to address these concerns. We have re-evaluated the boxplot in Figure 2E and want to clarify that the two participants mentioned by Reviewer #1, despite being somewhat distant from the rest of the group, are not outliers according to the standard Tukey’s rule. As shown in the figure below, no participant fell outside the upper (Q3+1.5xIQR) and lower whiskers (Q1-1.5xIQR) of the boxplot. 

      Moreover, we believe that the presence of a main effect of omission type does not impact the interpretation of the interaction, especially considering that these effects emerge over distinct clusters of channels (see Fig. 1 C; Supplementary Fig. 2 A). 

      Based on these considerations - and along with the evidence collected in the control study and the source reconstruction data reported in the new version of the manuscript - we find it unlikely that the interaction effect is driven by outliers or by a main effect of omission type. We appreciate the opportunity provided by the Reviewer to address these concerns, as we believe they strengthen the claim that the observed effect is driven by the hypothesized long-term linguistic priors rather than uncontrolled group differences.

      Author response image 1.

      It should also be noted that in the source analysis, the interaction only showed a trend in the left auditory cortex, but in its current version the manuscript does not report the statistics of such a trend.

      We  appreciate  the  Reviewer’s  suggestion  to  incorporate  more comprehensive source analyses. In the new version of the paper, we perform new analyses on the source data using a new Atlas with more fine-grained parcellations of the regions of interests (ROIs) (Brainnetome atlas; Fan et al., 2016) and focusing on peak activity to increase response’s sensitivity in space and time. We therefore invite the Reviewer to read the updated part on source reconstruction included in the Results and Methods sections of the paper.  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      While I have described my biggest concerns with respect to this work in the public review, here I list more specific points that I hope will help to improve the manuscript. Some of these are very minor, but I hope you will still find them constructive. 

      (1) I understand the difficulties implied in recruiting subjects from two different linguistic groups, but with 20 subjects per group and a between-groups design, the current study is somewhat underpowered. A post-hoc power analysis shows an achieved power of 46% for medium effect sizes (d = 0.5, and alpha = 0.05, one-sided test). A sensitivity analysis shows that the experiment only has 80% power for effect sizes of d = 0.8 and above. It would be important to acknowledge this limitation in the manuscript. 

      We thank the Reviewer for reporting these analyses. It must be noted that our effect of interest was based on Molnar et al.’s (2016) behavioral experiment, in which a sample size of 16 subjects per group was sufficient to detect the perceptual grouping effect. In Yoshida et al., (2010), the perceptual grouping effect emerged with two groups of 20 7–8-month-old Japanese and English-learning infants. Based on these previous findings, we believe that a sample size of 20 participants per group can be considered appropriate for the current MEG study. We clarified these aspects in the Participants section of the manuscript, in which we specified that previous behavioral studies detected the perceptual grouping with similar sample sizes. Moreover, to acknowledge the limitation highlighted by the Reviewer, we also include the power and sensitivity analysis in a note in the same section (see note 2 in the Participants section).

      (2) All the line plots in the manuscript could be made much more informative by adding 95% CI bars. For example, in Figure 4A, the omission response for the long tone departs from the one for the short tone very early. Adding CIs would help to assess the magnitude of that early difference. Error bars are present in Figure 3, but it is not specified what these bars represent. 

      Thanks for the comments. We added the explanation of the error bars in the new version of Figure 3. For the remaining figures, we prefer maintaining the current version of the ERF, as the box-plots accompanying them provide information about the distribution of the effect across participants.

      (3) In the source analysis, there is only mention of an interaction trend in the left auditory cortex, but no statistics are presented. If the authors prefer to mention such a trend, I think it would be important to provide its stats to allow the reader to assess its relevance. 

      We performed new analysis on the source data, all reported in the updated version of the manuscript.

      (4) In the discussion section, the authors refer to the source analysis and state that "the interaction is evident in the left". But if only a statistical trend was observed, this statement would be misleading. 

      We agree with this comment. We invite the Reviewer to check the new part on source reconstruction, in which contrasts going in the same direction of the sensor level data are performed.

      (5) In the discussion the authors argue that "This result highlights the presence of two distinct systems for the generation of auditory" that operate at different temporal scales, but the current work doesn't offer evidence for the existence of two different systems. The effects of long-term priors and short-term priors presented here are not dissociated and instead sum up. It remains possible that a single system is in place, collecting statistics of stimuli over a lifetime, including the statistics experienced during the experiment. 

      Thanks for pointing that out. We changed the sentence above as follows: “This result highlights the presence of an active predictive system that relies on natural sound statistics learned over a lifetime to process incoming auditory input”.

      (6) In the discussion, the authors acknowledge that the omission response has been interpreted both as pure prediction and as pure prediction error. Then they declare that "Overall, these findings are consistent with the idea that omission responses reflect, at least in part, prediction error signals.". However an argument for this statement is not provided. 

      Thanks for pointing out this lack of argument. In the new version of the manuscript, we explained our rationale as follows: “Since sensory predictive signals primarily arise in the same regions as the actual input, the activation of a broader network of regions in omission responses compared to tones suggests that omission responses reflect, at least in part, prediction error signals”.

      (7) In the discussion the authors present an alternative explanation in which both groups might devote more resources to the processing of long events, because these are relevant content words. Following this, they argue that "Independently on the interpretation, the lack of a main effect of omission type in the control condition suggests that the long omission effect is driven by experience with the native language." However as there was no manipulation of duration in the control experiment, a lack of the main effect of omission type there does not rule out the alternative explanation that the authors put forward. 

      This is correct; thanks for noticing it. We removed the sentence above to avoid ambiguities.

      Minor points: 

      (8) The scale of the y-axis in Figure 2C might be wrong, as it goes from 9 to 11 and then to 12. If the scale is linear, the top value should be 13, or the bottom value should be 10. 

      Figure 2C has been modified accordingly, thanks for noticing the error.

      (9) There is a very long paragraph starting on page 7 and ending on page 8. Toward the end of the paragraph, the analysis of the control condition is presented. That could start a new paragraph.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We modified the manuscript as suggested.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      (1) Despite the evidence provided on neural responses, the main conclusion of the study reflects a known behavioral effect on rhythmic sequence perceptual organization driven by linguistic background (Molnar et al. 2016, particularly). Also, the authors themselves provide a good review of the literature that evidences the influence of longterm priors in neural responses related to predictive activity. Thus, in my opinion, the strength of the statements the authors make on the novelty of the findings may be a bit far-fetched in some instances.

      Thanks for the suggestion. A similar point was also advanced by Reviewer 1. In general, we believe our work speaks about the predictive nature of such experiencedependent  effects, and show that these linguistic priors shape sensory processes at very early stages. This is discussed in the sixth and seventh paragraphs of the Discussion section. In the new version of the article, we modified some statements and tried to make them more coherent with the scope of the present work. For instance, we changed "This result highlights the presence of two distinct systems for the generation of auditory predictive models, one relying on the transition probabilities governing the recent past, and another relying on natural sound statistics learned over a lifetime“ with “This result highlights the presence of an active predictive system that relies on natural sound statistics learned over a lifetime to process incoming auditory input”.

      (2) Albeit the paradigm is well designed, I fail to see the grounding of the hypotheses laid by the authors as framed under the predictive coding perspective. The study assumes that responses to an omission at the beginning of a perceptual rhythmic pattern will be stronger than at the end. I feel this is unjustified. If anything, omission responses should be larger when the gap occurs at the end of the pattern, as that would be where stronger expectations are placed: if in my language a short sound occurs after a long one, and I perceptually group tone sequences of alternating tone duration accordingly, when I hear a short sound I will expect a long one following; but after a long one, I don't necessarily need to expect a short one, as something else might occur.

      A similar point was advanced by Reviewer #1. We tried to clarify the rationale behind our hypothesis. Please refer to the response provided to the first comment of Reviewer #1 above.

      (3) In this regard, it is my opinion that what is reflected in the data may be better accounted for (or at least, additionally) by a different neural response to an omission depending on the phase of an underlying attentional rhythm (in terms of Large and Jones rhythmic attention theory, for instance) and putative underlying entrained oscillatory neural activity (in terms of Lakatos' studies, for instance). Certainly, the fact that the aligned phase may differ depending on linguistic background is very interesting and would reflect the known behavioral effect.

      We thank the Reviewer for this comment. We explored in more detail the possibility that the aligned phase may differ depending on linguistic background, which is indeed a very interesting hypothesis. In the phase analyses reported below we focused on the instantaneous phase angle time locked to the onset of short and long tones presented in the experiment.

      In short, we extracted time intervals of two seconds centered on the onset of the tones for each participant (~200 trials per condition) and using a wavelet transform (implemented in Fieldtrip ft_freqanalysis) we targeted the 0.92 Hz frequency that corresponds to the rhythm of presentation of our pairs of tones. We extracted the phase angle for each time point and using the circular statistics toolbox implemented in Matlab we computed the Raleigh z scores across all the sensor space for each tone (long and short tone) and group (Spanish (Spa) dominants and Basque (Eus) dominants). This method evaluates the instantaneous phase clustering at a specific time point, thus evaluating the presence of a specific oscillatory pattern at the onset of the specific tone. 

      Author response image 2.

      Here we observe that the phase clustering was stronger in the right sensors for both groups. The critical point is to evaluate the phase angle (estimated in phase radians) for the two groups and the two tones and see if there are statistical differences. We focused first on the sensor with higher clustering (right temporal MEG1323) and observed very similar phase angles for the two groups both for long and short tones (see image below). We then focused on the four left fronto-temporal sensor pairs who showed the significant interaction: here we observed one sensor (MEG0412) with different effects for the two groups (interaction group by tone was significant, p=0.02): for short tones the “Watson (1961) approximation U2 test” showed a p-value of 0.11, while for long tones the p-value was 0.03 (after correction for multiple comparisons). 

      Overall, the present findings suggest the tendency to phase aligning differently in the two groups to long and short tones in the left fronto-temporal hemisphere. However, the effect could be detected only in one gradiometer sensor and it was not statistically robust. The effect in the right hemisphere was statistically more robust, but it was not sensitive to group language dominance. 

      Due to the inconclusive nature of these analyses regarding the role of language experience in shaping the phase alignment to rhythmic sound sequences, we prefer to keep these results in the public review rather than incorporating them in the article.  Nonetheless, we believe that this decision does not undermine the main finding that the group differences in the MMN amplitude are driven by long-term predictions – especially in light of the many studies indicating the MMN as a putative index of prediction error (e.g., Bendixen et al., 2012; Heilbron and Chait, 2018). Moreover, as suggested in the preliminary reply, despite evoked responses and oscillations are often considered distinct electrophysiological phenomena, current evidence suggests that these phenomena are interconnected (e.g., Studenova et al., 2023). In our view, the hypotheses that the MMN reflects differences in phase alignment and long-term prediction errors are not mutually exclusive.

      Author response image 3.

      (4) Source localization is performed on sensor-level significant data. The lack of  sourcelevel statistics weakens the conclusions that can be extracted. Furthermore, only the source reflecting the interaction pattern is taken into account in detail as supporting their hypotheses, overlooking other sources. Also, the right IFG source activity is not depicted, but looking at whole brain maps seems even stronger than the left. To sum up, source localization data, as informative as it could be, does not strongly support the author's claims in its current state. 

      A similar comment was also advanced by Reviewer #1 (comment 2). We appreciate the suggestion to incorporate more comprehensive source analyses. In the new version of the paper, we perform new analyses on the source data using a new Atlas with more fine-grained parcellations of the ROIs, and focusing on peak activity to increase response’s sensitivity in space and time. We therefore invite the Reviewer to read the updated part on source reconstruction included in the Results and Methods sections of the paper. 

      In the article, we report only the source reconstruction data from ROIs in the left hemisphere, because it is there that the interaction effect arises at the sensor level. However, we also explored the homologous regions in the right hemisphere, as requested by the Reviewer. A cluster-based permutation test focusing on the interaction between language group and omission type was performed on both the right STG and IFG data. No significant interaction emerged in any of these regions. Below a plot of the source activity time series over ROIs in the right STG and IFG. 

      Author response image 4.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In this set of private recommendations for the authors, I will outline a couple of minor comments and try to encourage additional data analyses that, in my opinion, would strengthen the evidence provided by the study. 

      (1) As I noted in the public review, I believe an oscillatory analysis of the data would, on one hand, provide stronger support for the behavioral effect of rhythmic perceptual organization given the lack of behavioral direct evidence; and, on the other hand, provide evidence (to be discussed if so) for a role of entrained oscillation phase in explaining the different pattern of omission responses. One analysis the authors could try is to measure the phase angle of an oscillation, the frequency of which relates to the length of the binary pattern, at the onset of short and long tones, separately, and compare it across groups. Also, single trials of omission responses could be sorted according to that phase. 

      Thanks for the suggestion. Please see phase analyses reported above.

      (2) I wonder why source activity for the right IFG was not shown. I urge the authors to provide and discuss a more complete picture of the source activity found. Given the lack of source statistics (which could be performed), I find it a must to give an overall view. I find it so because I believe the distinction between perceptual grouping effects due to inherent acoustic differences across languages or semantic differences is so interesting. 

      Thanks again for the invitation to provide a more complete picture of the source activity data. As mentioned in the response above, we invite the Reviewer to read the new related part included in the Results and Methods sections of the paper. In our updated source reconstruction analysis, we find that some regions around the left STG show a pattern that resembles the one found at the sensor-level, providing further support for the “acoustic” (rather than syntactic/semantic) nature of the effect. 

      We did not report ROI analysis on the right hemisphere because the interaction effect at sensor level emerged on the left hemisphere. Yet, we included a summary of this analysis in the public response above. 

      (3) Related to this, I have to acknowledge I had to read the whole Molnar et al. (2016) study to find the only evidence so far that, acoustically, in terms of sound duration, Basque and Spanish differ. This was hypothesized before but only at Molnar, an acoustic analysis is performed. I think this is key, and the authors should give it a deeper account in their manuscript. I spend my review of this study thinking, well, but when we speak we actually bind together different words and the syllabic structure does not need to reflect the written one, so maybe the effect is due to a high-level statistical prior related to the content of the words... but Molnar showed me that actually, acoustically, there's a difference in accent and duration: "Taken together, Experiments 1a and 1b show that Basque and Spanish exhibit the predicted differences in terms of the position of prosodic prominence in their phonological phrases (Basque: trochaic, Spanish: iambic), even though the acoustic realization of this prominence involves not only intensity in Basque but duration, as well. Spanish, as predicted, only uses duration as a cue to mark phrasal prosody." 

      Thanks for the suggestion, the distinction in terms of sound duration in Spanish and Basque reported by Molnar is indeed very relevant for the current study. 

      We add a few sentences to highlight the acoustic analysis by Molnar and the consequent acoustic nature of the reported effect.

      In the introduction: “Specifically, the effect has been proposed to depend on the quasiperiodic alternation of short and long auditory events in the speech signal – reported in previous acoustic analyses (Molnar et al., 2016) – which reflect the linearization of function words (e.g., articles, prepositions) and content words (e.g., nouns, adjectives, verbs).”

      In the discussion, paragraph 3, we changed “We hypothesized that this effect is linked to a long-term “duration prior” originating from the syntactic function-content word order of language, and specifically, from its acoustic consequences on the prosodic structure” with “We hypothesized that this effect is linked to a long-term “duration prior” originating from the acoustic properties of the two languages, specifically from the alternation of short and long auditory events in their prosody”.

      In the discussion, end of paragraph eight: “The reconstruction of cortical sources associated with the omission of short and long tones in the two groups showed that an interaction effect mirroring the one at the sensor level was present in the left STG, but not in the left IFG (fig. 3, B, C, D). Pairwise comparisons within different ROIs of the left STG indicated that the interaction effect was stronger over primary (BA 41/42) rather than associative (BAs 22) portions of the auditory cortex. Overall, these results suggest that the “duration prior” is linked to the acoustic properties of a given language rather than its syntactic configurations”.

      Now, some minor comments: 

      (1) Where did the experiments take place? Were they in accordance with the Declaration of Helsinki? Did participants give informed consent? 

      All the requested information has been added to the updated version of the manuscript. Thanks for pointing out this.

      (2) The fixed interval should be called inter-stimulus interval. 

      Thanks for pointing this out. We changed the wording as suggested.

      (3) The authors state that "Omission responses allow to examine the presence of putative error signals decoupled from bottom-up sensory input, offering a critical test for predictive coding (Walsh et al 2020, Heilbron and Chait, 2018).". However the way omission responses are computed in their study is by subtracting the activity from the previous tone. This necessarily means that in the omission activity analyzed, there's bottom-up sensory input activity. As performing another experiment with a control condition in which a sequence of randomly presented tones with different durations to compare directly the omission activity in both sequences (experimental and control) is possibly too demanding, I at least urge the authors to incorporate the fact that their omission responses do reflect also tone activity. And consider, for future experiments, the inclusion of further control conditions. 

      Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this aspect. Actually, the way we computed the omission MMN is not by subtracting the activity of the previous tone from the omission, but by subtracting the activity of randomly selected tones across the whole experiment. That is, we randomly selected around 120 long and short tones (i.e., about the same number as the omissions); we computed the ERF for the long and short tones; we subtracted these ERF from the ERF of the corresponding short and long omissions. We clarified these aspects in both the Materials and Methods (ERF analysis paragraph) and Results section.

      Moreover, the subtraction strategy - which is the standard approach to calculate the MMN - allows to handle possible neural carryover effects arising from the perception of the tone preceding the omission.

      The sentence "Omission responses allow to examine the presence of putative error signals decoupled from bottom-up sensory input, offering a critical test for predictive coding (Walsh et al 2020, Heilbron and Chait, 2018)." simply refer to the fact that the error responses resulting from an omission are purely endogenous, as omissions are just absence of an expected input (i.e., silence). On the other hand, when a predicted sequence of tones is disrupted by an auditory deviants (e.g., a tone with a different pitch or duration than the expected one), the resulting error response is not purely endogenous, but it partially includes the response to the acoustic properties of the deviant.

      (4) When multiple clusters emerged from a comparison, only the most significant cluster was reported. Why? 

      We found more than one significant cluster only in the comparison between pure omissions vs tones (figure 2 A, B). The additional significant cluster from this comparison is associated with a P-value of 0.04, emerges slightly earlier in time, and goes in the same direction as the cluster reported in the paper i.e., larger ERF responses for omission vs tones. We added a note specifying the presence of this second cluster, along with a figure on the supplementary material (Supplementary Fig. 1 A, B).

      (5) Fig 2, if ERFs are baseline corrected -50 to 0ms, why do the plots show pre-stimulus amplitudes not centered at 0? 

      This is because we combined the latitudinal and longitudinal gradiometers on the ERF obtained after baseline correction, by computing the root mean square of the signals at each sensor position (see also  https://www.fieldtriptoolbox.org/example/combineplanar_pipelineorder/). This information is reported in the methods part of the article.

      (6) Fig 2, add units to color bars. 

      Sure.

      (7) Fig 2 F and G, put colorbar scale the same for all topographies. 

      Sure, thanks for pointing this out.

      (8) The interaction effect language (Spanish; Basque) X omission type (short; long) appears only in a small cluster of 4 sensors not located at the locations with larger amplitudes to omissions. Authors report it as left frontotemporal, but it seems to me frontocentral with a slight left lateralization.

      (1) the fact that the cluster reflecting the interaction effect does not overlap with the peaks of activity is not surprising in our view. Many sources contribute to the generation of the MMN. The goal of our work was to establish whether there is also evidence for a long-term system (among the many) contributing to this. That is why we perform a first analysis on the whole omission response network (likely including many sources and predictive/attentional systems), and then we zoom in and focus on our hypothesized interaction. We never claim that the main source underlying the omissionMMM is the long-term predictive system. 

      (2) The exact location of those sensors is at the periphery of the left-hemisphere omission response, which mainly reflects activity from the left temporal regions. The sensor location of this cluster could be influenced by multiple factors, including (i) the direction of the source dipoles determining an effect; (ii) the combination of multiple sources contributing to the activity measured at a specific sensor location, whose unmixing could be solved only with a beamforming source approach. Based on the whole evidence we collected also in the source analyzes we concluded that the major contributors to the sensor-level interaction are emerging from both frontal and temporal regions.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      (1) The main weaknesses are the strength of the effects and generalisability. The sample size is also relatively small by today's standards, with N=20 in each group. Furthermore, the crucial effects are all mostly in the .01>P<.05 range, such as the crucial interaction P=.03. It would be nice to see it replicated in the future, with more participants and other languages. It would also have been nice to see behavioural data that could be correlated with neural data to better understand the real-world consequences of the effect.

      We appreciate the positive feedback from Reviewer #3. We agree that it would be nice to see this study replicated in the future with larger sample sizes and a behavioral counterpart. Below are a few comments concerning the weakness highlighted: 

      (i) Concerning the sample size: a similar point was raised by Reviewer #1. We report our reply as presented above: “Despite a sample size of 20 participants per group can be considered relatively small for detecting an effect in a between-group design, it must be noted that our effect of interest was based on Molnar et al.’s (2016) experiment, where a sample size of 16 subjects per group was sufficient to detect the perceptual grouping effect. In Yoshida et al., 2010, the perceptual grouping effect arose with two groups of 20 7–8-month-old Japanese and English-learning infants. Based on these findings, we believe that a sample size of 20 participants per group can be considered appropriate for the current study”. We clarified these aspects in the new version of the manuscript.

      (ii) We believe that the lack of behavioral data does not undermine the main findings of this study, given the careful selection of the participants and the well-known robustness of the perceptual grouping effect (e.g., Iversen 2008; Yoshida et al., 2010; Molnar et al. 2014; Molnar et al. 2016). As highlighted by Reviewer #2, having Spanish and Basque dominant “speakers as a sample equates that in Molnar et al. (2016), and thus overcomes the lack of direct behavioral evidence for a difference in rhythmic grouping across linguistic groups. Molnar et al. (2016)'s evidence on the behavioral effect is compelling, and the evidence on neural signatures provided by the present study aligns with it”. (iii) Regarding the fact that the “crucial effects are all mostly in the .01>P<.05 range”: we want to stress that the approach we used to detect the interaction effect was conservative, using a cluster-based permutation approach with no a priori assumptions about the location of the effect. The robustness of our approach has also been highlighted by Reviewer 2: “Data analyses. Sound, state-of-the-art methodology in the event-related field analyses at the sensor level.” In sum, despite some crucial effects being in the .01>P<.05 range, we believe that the statistical soundness of our analysis, combined with the lack of effect in the control condition, provides compelling evidence for our H1.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figures - Recommend converting all diagrams and plots to vector images to ensure they remain clear when zoomed in the PDF format. 

      Sure, thanks. 

      Figure 1: To improve clarity, the representation of sound durations in panels C and D should be revisited. The use of quavers/eighth notes can be confusing for those familiar with musical notation, as they imply isochrony. If printed in black and white, colour distinctions may be lost, making it difficult to discern the different durations. A more universal representation, such as spectrograms, might be more effective. 

      Thanks for the suggestion. It’s true that the quavers/eighth notes might be confusing in that respect. However, we find this notation as a relatively standard approach to define paradigms in auditory neuroscience, see for instance the two papers below. In the new version of the manuscript, we specified in the captions under the figure that the notes refer to individual tones, in order to avoid ambiguities.

      - Wacongne, C., Labyt, E., Van Wassenhove, V., Bekinschtein, T., Naccache, L., & Dehaene, S. (2011). Evidence for a hierarchy of predictions and prediction errors in human cortex. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 108(51), 20754-20759.

      - Dehaene, S., Meyniel, F., Wacongne, C., Wang, L., & Pallier, C. (2015). The neural representation of sequences: from transition probabilities to algebraic patterns and linguistic trees. Neuron, 88(1), 2-19.

      Figure 2 : In panel C of Figure 2, please include the exact p-value for the interaction observed. Refrain from using asterisks or "n.s." and opt for exact p-values throughout for the sake of clarity. 

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have included the exact p-value for the interaction in panel C of Figure 2. However, for the remaining figures, we have chosen to maintain the use of asterisks and "n.s.". We would like our pictures to convey the key findings concisely, while the numerical details can be found in the article text. The caption below the image also provides guidance on the interpretation of the p-values: (statistical significance: **p < 0.01, *p < 0.05, and ns p > 0.05).  

      Figure 3 Note typo "Omission reponse"

      Fixed. Thanks for noticing the typo. 

      A note: we moved the figure reflecting the main effect of long tone omission and the lack of main effect of language background (Figure 4 in the previous manuscript) in the supplementary material (Supplementary Figure 2).

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      Brochard, R., Abecasis, D., Potter, D., Ragot, R., & Drake, C. (2003). The “ticktock” of our internal clock: Direct brain evidence of subjective accents in isochronous sequences. Psychological Science, 14(4), 362-366.

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      Bouwer, F. L., Werner, C. M., Knetemann, M., & Honing, H. (2016). Disentangling beat perception from sequential learning and examining the influence of attention and musical abilities on ERP responses to rhythm. Neuropsychologia, 85, 80-90.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study provides important evidence supporting the ability of a new type of neuroimaging, OPM-MEG system, to measure beta-band oscillation in sensorimotor tasks on 2-14 years old children and to demonstrate the corresponding development changes, since neuroimaging methods with high spatiotemporal resolution that could be used on small children are quite limited. The evidence supporting the conclusion is solid but lacks clarifications about the much-discussed advantages of OPM-MEG system (e.g., motion tolerance), control analyses (e.g., trial number), and rationale for using sensorimotor tasks. This work will be of interest to the neuroimaging and developmental science communities.

      We thank the editors and reviewers for their time and comments on our manuscript. We have responded in detail to the comments, on a point-by-point basis, below. Included in our responses (and our revised manuscript) are additional analyses to control for trial count, clarification of the advantages of OPM-MEG, and justification of our use of sensory (as distinct from motor) stimulation. In what follows, our responses are in bold typeface; additions to our manuscript are in bold italic typeface. 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Compared with conventional SQUID-MEG, OPM-MEG offers theoretical advantages of sensor configurability (that is, sizing to suit the head size) and motion tolerance (the sensors are intrinsically in the head reference frame). This study purports to be the first to experimentally demonstrate these advantages in a developmental study from age 2 to age 34. In short, while the theoretical advantages of OPM-MEG are attractive - both in terms of young child sensitivity and in terms of motion tolerance - neither was in fact demonstrated in this manuscript. We are left with a replication of SQUID-MEG observations, which certainly establishes OPM-MEG as "substantially equivalent" to conventional technology but misses the opportunity to empirically demonstrate the much-discussed theoretical advantages/opportunities.

      Thank you for reviewing our manuscript. We agree that our results demonstrate substantial equivalence with conventional MEG. However, as mentioned by Reviewer 3, most past studies have “focused on older children and adolescents (e.g., 9-15 years old)” whereas our youngest group is 25 years. We believe that by obtaining data of sufficient quality in these age groups, without the need for any restriction of head movement, we have demonstrated the advantage of OPM-MEG. We now have made this clear in our discussion:

      “…our primary aim was to test the feasibility of OPM-MEG for neurodevelopmental studies. Our results demonstrate we were able to scan children down to age 2 years, measuring high-fidelity electrophysiological signals and characterising the neurodevelopmental trajectory of beta oscillations. The fact that we were able to complete this study demonstrates the advantages of OPM-MEG over conventional-MEG, the latter being challenging to deploy across such a large age range…”

      Strengths:

      A replication of SQUID-MEG observations, which certainly establishes OPM-MEG as "substantially equivalent" to conventional technology but misses the opportunity to empirically demonstrate the much-discussed theoretical advantages/opportunities.

      As noted above the demonstration of equivalence was one of our primary aims. We have elaborated further on the advantages below.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors describe 64 tri-axial detectors, which they refer to as 192 channels. This is in keeping with some of the SQUID-MEG description, but possibly somewhat disingenuous. For the scientific literature, perhaps "64 tri-axial detectors" is a more parsimonious description.

      The number of channels in a MEG system refers to the number of independent measurements of magnetic field. This, in turn, tells us the number of degrees of freedom in the data that can be exploited by algorithms like signal space separation or beamforming. E.g. the MEGIN (cryogenic) MEG system has 306 channels, 102 magnetometers and 204 planar gradiometers. Sensors are constructed as “triple sensor elements” with one magnetometer and 2 gradiometers (in orthogonal orientations) centred on a single location. In our system, each sensor has three orthogonal metrics of magnetic field which are (by definition) independent. We have 64 such sensors, and therefore 192 independent channels – indeed when implementing algorithms like SSS we have shown we can exploit this number of degrees of freedom.1 192 channels is therefore an accurate description of the system.

      A small fraction (<20%) of trials were eliminated for analysis because of "excess interference" - this warrants further elaboration.

      We agree that this is an important point. We now state in our methods section:

      “…Automatic trial rejection was implemented with trials containing abnormally high variance (exceeding 3 standard deviations from the mean) removed. All experimental trials were also inspected visually by an experienced MEG scientist, to exclude trials with large spikes/drifts that were missed by the automatic approach. In the adult group, there was a significant overlap between automatically and manually detected bad trials (0.7+-1.6 trials were only detected manually). In the children 10.0 +-9.4 trials were only detected manually)…”

      We also note that the other reviewers and editor questioned whether the higher rejection rate in children had any bearing on results. This is an extremely important question. In revising the manuscript this has also been taken into account with all data reanalysed with equal trial counts in children and adults. Results are presented in Supplementary Information Section 5.

      Figure 3 shows a reduced beta ERD in the youngest children. Although the authors claim that OPMMEG would be similarly sensitive for all ages and that SQUID-MEG would be relatively insensitive to young children, one trivial counterargument that needs to be addressed is that OPM has NOT in fact increased the sensitivity to young child ERD. This can possibly be addressed by analogous experiments using a SQUID-based system. An alternative would be to demonstrate similar sensitivity across ages using OPM to a brain measure such as evoked response amplitude. In short, how does Figure 3 demonstrate the (theoretical) sensitivity advantage of OPM MEG in small heads ?

      We completely understand the referees’ point – indeed the question of whether a neuromagnetic effect really changes with age, or apparently changes due to a drop in sensitivity (caused by reduced head size or - in conventional MEG and fMRI - increased subject movement) is a question that can be raised in all neurodevelopmental studies.

      Our authors have many years’ experience conducting studies using conventional MEG (including in neurodevelopment) and agreed that the idea of scanning subjects down to age two in conventional MEG would not be practical; their heads are too small and they typically fail to tolerate an environment where they are forced to remain still for long periods. Even if we tried a comparative study using conventional MEG, the likely data exclusion rate would be so high that the study would be confounded. This is why most conventional MEG studies only scan older children and adolescents. For this reason, we cannot undertake the comparative study the reviewer suggests. There are however two reasons why we believe sensitivity is not driving the neurodevelopmental effects that we observe:

      Proximity of sensors to the head: 

      For an ideal wearable MEG system, the distance between the sensors and the scalp surface (sensor proximity) would be the same regardless of age (and size), ensuring maximum sensitivity in all subjects. To test how our system performed in this regard, we undertook analyses to compute scalp-to-sensor distances. This was done in two ways:

      (1) Real distances in our adaptable system: We took the co-registered OPM sensor locations and computed the Euclidean distance from the centre of the sensitive volume (i.e. the centre of the vapour cell) to the closest point on the scalp surface. This was measured independently for all sensors, and an average across sensors calculated. We repeated this for all participants (recall participants wore helmets of varying size and this adaptability should help minimise any relationship between sensor proximity and age).

      (2) Simulated distances for a non-adaptable system: Here, the aim was to see how proximity might have changed with age, had only a single helmet size been used. We first identified the single example subject with the largest head (scanned wearing the largest helmet) and extracted the scalpto-sensor distances as above. For all other subjects, we used a rigid body transform to co-register their brain to that of the example subject (placing their head (virtually) inside the largest helmet). Proximity was then calculated as above and an average across sensors calculated. This was repeated for all participants.

      In both analyses, sensor proximity was plotted against age and significant relationships probed using Pearson correlation. 

      In addition, we also wanted to probe the relation between sensor proximity and head circumference. Head circumference was estimated by binarising the whole head MRI (to delineate volume of the head), and the axial slice with the largest circumference around was selected. We then plotted sensor proximity versus head circumference, for both the real (adaptive) and simulated (nonadaptive) case (expecting a negative relationship – i.e. larger heads mean closer sensor proximity). The slope of the relationship was measured and we used a permutation test to determine whether the use of adaptable helmets significantly lowered the identified slope (i.e. do adaptable helmets significantly improve sensor proximity in those with smaller head circumference).

      Results are shown in Figure R1. We found no measurable relationship between sensor proximity and age (r = -0.195; p = 0.171) in the case of the real helmets (panel A). When simulating a non-adaptable helmet, we did see a significant effect of age on scalp-to-sensor distance (r = -0.46; p = 0.001; panel B). This demonstrates the advantage of the adaptability of OPM-MEG; without the ability to flexibly locate sensors, we would have a significant confound of sensor proximity. 

      Plotting sensor proximity against head circumference we found a significant negative relationship in both cases (r = -0.37; p = 0.007 and  r = -0.78; p = 0.000001); however, the difference between slopes was significant according to a permutation test (p < 0.025) suggesting that adaptable has indeed improved sensor proximity in those with smaller head circumference. This again shows the benefits of adaptability to head size.

      Author response image 1.

      Scalp-to-sensor distance as a function of age (A/B) and head circumference (C/D). A and C show the case for the real helmets; B and D show the simulated non-adaptable case.

      In sum, the ideal wearable system would see sensors located on the scalp surface, to get as close as possible to the brain in all subjects. Our system of multiple helmet sizes is not perfect in this regard (there is still a significant relationship between proximity and head circumference). However, our solution has offered a significant improvement over a (simulated) non-adaptable system. Future systems should aim to improve even further on this, either by using additively manufactured bespoke helmets for every subject (this is a gold standard, but also costly for large studies), or potentially adaptable flexible helmets.

      Burst amplitudes:

      The reviewer suggested to “demonstrate similar sensitivity across ages using OPM to a brain measure”. We decided not to use the evoked response amplitude (as suggested), since this would be expected to change with age. Instead, we used the amplitude of the bursts.

      Our manuscript shows a significant correlation between beta modulation and burst probability – implying that the stimulus-related drop in beta amplitude occurs because bursts are less likely to occur. Further, we showed significant age-related changes in both beta amplitude and burst probability leading to a conclusion that the age dependence of beta modulation was caused by changes in the likelihood of bursts (i.e. bursts are less likely to ’switch off’ during sensory stimulation in children). We have now extended these analyses to test whether burst amplitude also changes significantly with age – we reasoned that if burst amplitude remained the same in children and adults, this would not only suggest that beta modulation is driven by burst probability (distinct from burst amplitude), but also show directly that the beta effects we see are not attributable to a lack of sensitivity in younger people. 

      We took the (unnormalized) beamformer projected electrophysiological time series from sensorimotor cortex and filtered it 5-48 Hz (the motivation for the large band was because bursts are known to be pan-spectral and have lower frequency content in children; this band captures most of the range of burst frequencies highlighted in our spectra). We then extracted the timings of the bursts, and for each burst took the maximum projected signal amplitude. These values were averaged across all bursts in an individual subject, and plotted for all subjects against age.

      Author response image 2.

      Beta burst amplitude as a function of age; A) shows index finger simulation trials; B shows little finger stimulation trials. In both case there was no significant modulation of burst amplitude with age.

      Results (see Figure R2) showed that the amplitude of the beta burst showed no significant age-related modulation (R2 = 0.01, p = 0.48 for index finger and R2 = 0.01, p = 0.57 for the little finger). This is distinct from both burst probability and task induced beta modulation. This adds weight to the argument that the diminished beta modulation in children is not caused by a lack of sensitivity to the MEG signal and supports our conclusion that burst probability is the primary driver of the agerelated changes in beta oscillations.

      Both of the above analyses have been added to our supplementary information and mentioned in the main manuscript. The first shows no confound of sensor proximity to the scalp with age in our study. The second shows that the bursts underlying the beta signal are not significantly lower amplitude in children – which we reasoned they would be if sensitivity was diminished at younger ages. We believe that the two together suggest that we have mitigated a sensitivity confound in our study.

      The data do not make a compelling case for the motion tolerance of OPM-MEG. Although an apparent advantage of a wearable system, an empirical demonstration is still lacking. How was motion tracked in these participants?

      We agree that this was a limitation of our experiment. 

      We have the equipment to track motion of the head during an experiment, using IR retroreflective markers placed on the helmet and a set of IR cameras located inside the MSR. However, the process takes a long time to set up, it lacks robustness, and would have required an additional computer (the one we typically use was already running the somatosensory stimulus and video). When the study was designed, we were concerned that the increased set up time for motion tracking would cause children to get bored, and result in increased participant drop out. For this reason we decided not to capture motion of the head during this study.

      With hindsight this was a limitation which – as the reviewer states – makes us unable to prove that motion robustness was a significant advantage for this study. That said, during scanning there was both a parent and an experimenter in the room for all of the children scanned, and anecdotally we can say that children tended to move their head during scans – usually to talk to the parent. Whilst this cannot be quantified (and is therefore unsatisfactory) we thought it worth mentioning in our discussion, which reads:

      “…One limitation of the current study is that practical limitations prevented us from quantitatively tracking the extent to which children (and adults) moved their head during a scan. Anecdotally however, experimenters present in the room during scans reported several instances where children moved, for example to speak to their parents who were also in the room. Such levels of movement could not be tolerated in conventional MEG or MRI and so this again demonstrates the advantages afforded by OPM-MEG…”

      As a note, empirical demonstrations of the motion tolerance of OPM-MEG have been published previously: Early demonstrations included Boto et al. 2 who captured beta oscillations in adults playing a ball game and Holmes et al. who measured visual responses as participants moved their head to change viewing angle3. In more recent demonstrations, Seymour et al. measured the auditory evoked field in standing mobile participants4; Rea et al. measured beta modulation as subjects carried out a naturalistic handwriting task5 and Holmes et al measured beta modulation as a subject walked around a room.6

      Furthermore, while the introduction discusses at some length the phenomenon of PMBR, there is no demonstration of the recording of PMBR (or post-sensory beta rebound). This is a shame because there is literature suggesting an age-sensitivity to this, that the optimal sensitivity of OPM-MEG might confirm/refute. There is little evidence in Figure 3 for adult beta rebound. Is there an explanation for the lack of sensitivity to this phenomenon in children/adolescents? Could a more robust paradigm (button-press) have shed light on this?

      We understand the question. There are two limitations to the current study in respect to measuring the PMBR:

      Firstly, sensory tasks generally do not induce as strong a PMBR as motor tasks and with this in mind a stronger rebound response could have been elicited using a button press. However, it was our intention to scan children down to age 2 and we were sceptical that the youngest children would carry out a button press as instructed. For this reason we opted for entirely passive stimulation, requiring no active engagement from our participants. The advantages of this was a stimulus that all subjects could engage with. However, this was at the cost of a diminished rebound.

      The second limitation relates to trial length. Multiple studies have shown that the PMBR can last over ~10 s 7,8. Indeed, Pfurtscheller et al. argued in 1999 that it was necessary to leave 10 s between movements to allow the PMBR to return to a true baseline9, though this has rarely been adhered to in the literature. Here, we wanted to keep recordings short for the comfort of the younger participants, so we adopted a short trial duration. However, a consequence of this short trial length is that it becomes impossible to access the PMBR directly; one can only measure beta modulation with the task. This limitation has now been addressed explicitly in our discussion:

      “…this was the first study of its kind using OPM-MEG, and consequently aspects of the study design could have been improved. Firstly, the task was designed for children; it was kept short while maximising the number of trials (to maximise signal to noise ratio). However, the classical view of beta modulation includes a PMBR which takes ~10 s to reach baseline following task cessation7–9. Our short trial duration therefore doesn’t allow the rebound to return to baseline between trials, and so conflates PMBR with rest. Consequently, we cannot differentiate the neural generators of the task induced beta power decrease and the PMBR; whilst this helped ensure a short, child friendly task, future studies should aim to use longer rest windows to independently assess which of the two processes is driving age related changes…”

      Data on functional connectivity are valuable but do not rely on OPM recording. They further do not add strength to the argument that OPM MEG is more sensitive to brain activity in smaller heads - in fact, the OPM recordings seem plagued by the same insensitivity observed using conventional systems.

      Given the demonstration above that bursts are not significantly diminished in amplitude in children relative to adults; and further given the demonstrations in the literature (e.g. Seedat et al.10) that functional connectivity is driven by bursts, we would argue that the effects of connectivity changing with age are not related to sensitivity but rather genuinely reflect a lack of coordination of brain activity.

      The discussion of burst vs oscillations, while highly relevant in the field, is somewhat independent of the OPM recording approach and does not add weight to the OPM claims.

      We agree that the burst vs. oscillations discussion does not add weight to the OPM claims per se. However, we had two aims of our paper, the second being to “investigate how task-induced beta modulation in the sensorimotor cortices is related to the occurrence of pan-spectral bursts, and how the characteristics of those bursts change with age.” As the reviewer states, this is highly relevant to the field, and therefore we believe adds impact, not only to the paper, but also by extension to the technology.

      In short, while the theoretical advantages of OPM-MEG are attractive - both in terms of young child sensitivity and in terms of motion tolerance, neither was in fact demonstrated in this manuscript. We are left with a replication of SQUID-MEG observations, which certainly establishes OPM-MEG as "substantially equivalent" to conventional technology but misses the opportunity to empirically demonstrate the much-discussed theoretical advantages/opportunities.

      We thank the referee for the time and important contributions to this paper. We believe the fact that we were able to record good data in children as young as two years old was, in itself, an experimental realisation of the ‘theoretical advantages’ of OPM-MEG. Our additional analyses, inspired by the reviewers comments, help to clarify the advantages of OPM-MEG over conventional technology. The reviewers’ insights have without doubt improved the paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors introduce a new 192-channel OPM system that can be configured using different helmets to fit individuals from 2 to 34 years old. To demonstrate the veracity of the system, they conduct a sensorimotor task aimed at mapping developmental changes in beta oscillations across this age range. Many past studies have mapped the trajectory of beta (and gamma) oscillations in the sensorimotor cortices, but these studies have focused on older children and adolescents (e.g., 9-15 years old) and used motor tasks. Thus, given the study goals, the choice of a somatosensory task was surprising and not justified. The authors recorded a final sample of 27 children (2-13 years old) and 24 adults (21-34 years) and performed a time-frequency analysis to identify oscillatory activity. This revealed strong beta oscillations (decreases from baseline) following the somatosensory stimulation, which the authors imaged to discern generators in the sensorimotor cortices. They then computed the power difference between 0.3-0.8 period and 1.0-1.5 s post-stimulation period and showed that the beta response became stronger with age (more negative relative to the stimulation period). Using these same time windows, they computed the beta burst probability and showed that this probability increased as a function of age. They also showed that the spectral composition of the bursts varied with age. Finally, they conducted a whole-brain connectivity analysis. The goals of the connectivity analysis were not as clear as prior studies of sensorimotor development have not conducted such analyses and typically such whole-brain connectivity analyses are performed on resting-state data, whereas here the authors performed the analysis on task-based data. In sum, the authors demonstrate that they can image beta oscillations in young children using OPM and discern developmental effects.

      Thank you for this summary and for taking the time to review our manuscript.

      Strengths:

      Major strengths of the study include the novel OPM system and the unique participant population going down to 2-year-olds. The analyses are also innovative in many respects.

      Thank you – we also agree that the major strength is in the unique cohort.

      Weaknesses:

      Several weaknesses currently limit the impact of the study. 

      First, the choice of a somatosensory stimulation task over a motor task was not justified. The authors discuss the developmental motor literature throughout the introduction, but then present data from a somatosensory task, which is confusing. Of note, there is considerable literature on the development of somatosensory responses so the study could be framed with that.

      We completely understand the referee’s point, and we agree that the motivation for the somatosensory task was not made clear in our original manuscript.

      Our choice of task was motivated completely by our targeted cohort; whilst a motor task would have been our preference, it was generally felt that making two-year-olds comply with instructions to press a button would have been a significant challenge. In addition, there would likely have been differences in reaction times. By opting for a passive sensory stimulation we ensured compliance, and the same stimulus for all subjects. We have added text on this to our introduction as follows:

      “…Here, we combine OPM-MEG with a burst analysis based on a Hidden Markov Model (HMM) 10–12 to investigate beta dynamics. We scanned a cohort of children and adults across a wide age range (upwards from 2 years old). Because of this, we implemented a passive somatosensory task which can be completed by anyone, regardless of age…”

      We also state in our discussion:

      “…here we chose to use passive (sensory) stimulation. This helped ensure compliance with the task in subjects of all ages and prevented confounds of e.g. reaction time, force, speed and duration of movement which would be more likely in a motor task.7,8 However, there are many other systems to choose and whether the findings here regarding beta bursts and the changes with age also extend to other brain networks remains an open question.…”

      Regarding the neurodevelopmental literature – we are aware of the literature on somatosensory evoked responses – particularly median nerve stimulation – but we can find little on the neurodevelopmental trajectory of somatosensory induced beta oscillations (the topic of our paper). We have edited our introduction as follows:

      “…All these studies probed beta responses to movement execution; in the case of tactile stimulation (i.e. sensory stimulation without movement) both task induced beta power loss, and the post stimulus rebound have been consistently observed in adults9,13–18. Further, beta amplitude in sensory cortex has been related to attentional processes19 and is broadly thought to carry top down top down influence on primary areas20. However, there is less literature on how beta modulation changes with age during purely sensory tasks.…”

      We would be keen for the reviewer to point to any specific papers in the literature that we may have missed.

      Second, the primary somatosensory response actually occurs well before the time window of interest in all of the key analyses. There is an established literature showing mechanical stimulation activates the somatosensory cortex within the first 100 ms following stimulation, with the M50 being the most robust response. The authors focus on a beta decrease (desynchronization) from 0.3-0.8 s which is obviously much later, despite the primary somatosensory response being clear in some of their spectrograms (e.g., Figure 3 in older children and adults). This response appears to exhibit a robust developmental effect in these spectrograms so it is unclear why the authors did not examine it. This raises a second point; to my knowledge, the beta decrease following stimulation has not been widely studied and its function is unknown. The maps in Figure 3 suggest that the response is anterior to the somatosensory cortex and perhaps even anterior to the motor cortex. Since the goal of the study is to demonstrate the developmental trajectory of well-known neural responses using an OPM system, should the authors not focus on the best-understood responses (i.e., the primary somatosensory response that occurs from 0.0-0.3 s)?

      We understand the reviewer’s point. The original aim of our manuscript was to investigate the neurodevelopmental trajectory of beta oscillations, not the evoked response. In fact, the evoked response in this paradigm is complicated by the fact that there are three stimuli in a very short (<500 ms) time window. For this reason, we prefer the focus of our paper to remain on oscillations.

      Nevertheless, we agree that not including the evoked responses was a missed opportunity.  We have now added evoked responses to our analysis pipeline and manuscript. As surmised by the reviewer, the M50 shows neurodevelopmental changes (an increase with age). Our methods section has been updated accordingly and Figure 3 has been modified. The figure and caption are copied below for the convenience of the reviewer.

      Author response image 3.

      Beta band modulation with age: (A) Brain plots show slices through the left motor cortex, with a pseudo-T-statistical map of beta modulation (blue/green) overlaid on the standard brain. Peak MNI coordinates are indicated for each subgroup. Time frequency spectrograms show modulation of the amplitude of neural oscillations (fractional change in spectral amplitude relative to the baseline measured in the 2.5-3 s window). Vertical lines indicate the time of the first braille stimulus. In all cases results were extracted from the location of peak beta desynchronisation (in the left sensorimotor cortex). Note the clear beta amplitude reduction during stimulation. The inset line plots show the 4-40 Hz trial averaged phase-locked evoked response, with the expected prominent deflections around 20 and 50 ms. (B) Maximum difference in beta-band amplitude (0.3-0.8 s window vs 1-1.5 s window) plotted as a function of age (i.e., each data point shows a different participant; triangles represent children, circles represent adults). Note significant correlation (𝑅2 \= 0.29, 𝑝 = 0.00004 *). (C) Amplitude of the P50 component of the evoked response plotted against age. There was no significant correlation (𝑅2 \= 0.04, 𝑝 = 0.14 ). All data here relate to the index finger stimulation; similar results are available for the little finger stimulation in Supplementary Information Section 1.

      Regarding the developmental effects, the authors appear to compute a modulation index that contrasts the peak beta window (.3 to .8) to a later 1.0-1.5 s window where a rebound is present in older adults. This is problematic for several reasons. First, it prevents the origin of the developmental effect from being discerned, as a difference in the beta decrease following stimulation is confounded with the beta rebound that occurs later. A developmental effect in either of these responses could be driving the effect. From Figure 3, it visually appears that the much later rebound response is driving the developmental effect and not the beta decrease that is the primary focus of the study. Second, these time windows are a concern because a different time window was used to derive the peak voxel used in these analyses. From the methods, it appears the image was derived using the .3-.8 window versus a baseline of 2.5-3.0 s. How do the authors know that the peak would be the same in this other time window (0.3-0.8 vs. 1.0-1.5)? Given the confound mentioned above, I would recommend that the authors contrast each of their windows (0.3-0.8 and 1.0-1.5) with the 2.5-3.0 window to compute independent modulation indices. This would enable them to identify which of the two windows (beta decrease from 0.3-0.8 s or the increase from 1.0-1.5 s) exhibited a developmental effect. Also, for clarity, the authors should write out the equation that they used to compute the modulation index. The direction of the difference (positive vs. negative) is not always clear.

      We completely understand the referee’s point; referee 1 made a similar point. In fact, there are two limitations of our paradigm regarding the measurement of PMBR versus the task-induced beta decrease:

      Firstly, sensory tasks generally do not induce as strong a PMBR as motor tasks and with this in mind a stronger rebound response could have been elicited using a button press. However, as described above it was our intention to scan children down to age 2 and we were sceptical that the youngest children would carry out a button press as instructed.

      The second limitation relates to trial length. Multiple studies have shown that the PMBR can last over ~10 s7,8. Indeed, Pfurtscheller et al. argued in 1999 that it was necessary to leave 10 s between movements to allow the PMBR to return to a true baseline9 Here, we wanted to keep recordings relatively short for the younger participants, and so we adopted a short trial duration. However, a consequence of this short trial length is that it becomes impossible to access the PMBR directly because the PMBR of the nth trial is still ongoing when the (n+1)th trial begins. Because of this, there is no genuine rest period, and so the stimulus induced beta decrease and subsequent rebound cannot be disentangled. This limitation has now been made clear in our discussion as follows:

      “…this was the first study of its kind using OPM-MEG, and consequently aspects of the study design could have been improved. Firstly, the task was designed for children; it was kept short while maximising the number of trials (to maximise signal to noise ratio). However, the classical view of beta modulation includes a PMBR which takes ~10 s to reach baseline following task cessation7–9. Our short trial duration therefore doesn’t allow the rebound to return to baseline between trials, and so conflates PMBR with rest. Consequently, we cannot differentiate the neural generators of the task induced beta power decrease and the PMBR; whilst this helped ensure a short, child friendly task, future studies should aim to use longer rest windows to independently assess which of the two processes is driving age related changes…”

      To clarify our method of calculating the modulation index, we have added the following statement to the methods:

      “The beta modulation index was calculated using the equation , where , and are the average Hilbert-envelope-derived amplitudes in the stimulus (0.3-0.8s), post-stimulus (1-1.5s) and baseline (2.5-3s) windows, respectively.”

      Another complication of using a somatosensory task is that the literature on bursting is much more limited and it is unclear what the expectations would be. Overall, the burst probability appears to be relatively flat across the trial, except that there is a sharp decrease during the beta decrease (.3-.8 s). This matches the conventional trial-averaging analysis, which is good to see. However, how the bursting observed here relates to the motor literature and the PMBR versus beta ERD is unclear.

      Again, we agree completely; a motor task would have better framed the study in the context of existing burst literature – but as mentioned above, making 2-year-olds comply with the instructions for a motor task would have been difficult. Interestingly in a recent paper, Rayson et al. used EEG to investigate burst activity in infants (9 and 12 months) and adults during observed movement execution, with results showing stimulus induced decrease in beta burst rate at all ages, with the largest effects in adults21. This paper was not yet published when we submitted our article but does help us to frame our burst results since there is strong agreement between their study and ours. We now mention this study in both our introduction and discussion. 

      Another weakness is that all participants completed 42 trials, but 19% of the trials were excluded in children and 9% were excluded in adults. The number of trials is proportional to the signal-to-noise ratio. Thus, the developmental differences observed in response amplitude could reflect differences in the number of trials that went into the final analyses.

      This is an important observation and we thank the reviewer for raising the issue. We have now re-analysed all of our data, removing trials in the adults such that the overall number of trials was the same as for the children. All effects with age remained significant. We chose to keep the Figures in the main manuscript with all good trials (as previously) and present the additional analyses (with matched trial numbers) in supplementary information. However, if the reviewer feels strongly, we could do it the other way around (there is very little difference between the results).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This study demonstrated the application of OPM-MEG in neurodevelopment studies of somatosensory beta oscillations and connections with children as young as 2 years old. It provides a new functional neuroimaging method that has a high spatial-temporal resolution as well wearable which makes it a new useful tool for studies in young children. They have constructed a 192-channel wearable OPM-MEG system that includes field compensation coils which allow free head movement scanning with a relatively high ratio of usable trials. Beta band oscillations during somatosensory tasks are well localized and the modulation with age is found in the amplitude, connectivity, and panspectral burst probability. It is demonstrated that the wearable OPM-MEG could be used in children as a quite practical and easy-to-deploy neuroimaging method with performance as good as conventional MEG. With both good spatial (several millimeters) and temporal (milliseconds) resolution, it provides a novel and powerful technology for neurodevelopment research and clinical applications not limited to somatosensory areas.

      We thank the reviewer for their summary, and their time in reviewing our manuscript.

      The conclusions of this paper are mostly well supported by data acquired under the proper method. However, some aspects of data analysis need to be improved and extended.

      (1) The colour bars selected for the pseudo-T-static pictures of beta modulation in Figures 2 and 3, which are blue/black and red/black, are not easily distinguished from the anatomical images which are grey-scale. A colour bar without black/white would make these figures better. The peak point locations are also suggested to be marked in Figure 2 and averaged locations in Figure 3 with an error bar.

      Thank you for this comment which we certainly agree with. The colour scheme used has now been changed to avoid black. We have also added peak locations. 

      (2) The data points in plots are not constant across figures. In Figures 3 and 5, they are classified into triangles and circles for children and adults, but all are circles in Figures 4 and 6.

      Thank you! We apologise for the confusion. Data points are now consistent across plots.

      (3) Although MEG is much less susceptible to conductivity inhomogeneity of the head than EEG, the forward modulating may still be impacted by the small head profile. Add more information about source localization accuracy and stability across ages or head size.

      This is an excellent point. We have added to our discussion relating to the accuracy of the forward model. 

      “…We failed to see a significant difference in the spatial location of the cortical representations of the index and little finger; there are three potential reasons for this. First, the system was not designed to look for such a difference – sensors were sparsely distributed to achieve whole head coverage (rather than packed over sensory cortex to achieve the best spatial resolution in one area22). Second, our “pseudo-MRI” approach to head modelling (see Methods) is less accurate than acquisition of participantspecific MRIs, and so may mask subtle spatial differences. Third, we used a relatively straightforward technique for modelling magnetic fields generated by the brain (a single shell forward model). Although MEG is much less susceptible to conductivity inhomogeneity of the head than EEG, the forward model may still be impacted by the small head profile. This may diminish spatial resolution and future studies might look to implement more complex models based on e.g. finite element modelling23. Finally, previous work 24 suggested that, for a motor paradigm in adults, only the beta rebound, and not the power reduction during stimulation, mapped motortopically. This may also be the case for purely sensory stimulation. Nevertheless, it remains the case that by placing sensors closer to the scalp, OPM-MEG should offer improved spatial resolution in children and adults; this should be the topic of future work…”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major items to further test include the differing number of trials, the windowing issue, and the focus on motor findings in the intro and discussion. First, I would recommend the authors adjust the number of trials in adults to equate them between groups; this will make their developmental effects easier to interpret.  

      Thank you for raising this important point. This has now been done and appears in our supplementary information as discussed above.

      Second, to discern which responses are exhibiting developmental effects, the authors need to contrast the 0.3-0.8 window with the later window (2.5-3.0), not the window that appears to have the PMBR-like response. This artificially accentuates the response. I also think they should image the 1.0-1.5 vs 2.5-3.0s window to determine whether the response in this time window is in the same location as the decrease and then contrast this for beta differences. 

      We completely understand this point, which relates to separating the reduction in beta amplitude during stimulation and the rebound post stimulation. However, as explained above, doing so unambiguously would require the use of much longer trials. Here we were only able to measure stimulus induced beta modulation (distinct from the separate contributions of the task induced beta power reduction and rebound). It may be that future studies, with >10 s trial length, could probe the role of the PMBR, but such studies require long paradigms which are challenging to implement with children.

      Third, changing the framing of the study to highlight the somatosensory developmental literature would also be an improvement.

      We have added to our introduction a stated in the responses above.

      Finally, the connectivity analysis on data from a somatosensory task did not make sense given the focus of the study and should be removed in my opinion. It is very difficult to interpret given past studies used resting state data and one would expect the networks to dynamically change during different parts of the current task (i.e., stimulation versus baseline).

      We appreciate the point regarding connectivity. However, it was our intention to examine the developmental trajectory of beta oscillations, and a major role of beta oscillations is in mediating connectivity. It is true that most studies are conducted in the resting state (or more recently – particularly in children – during movie watching). The fact that we had a sensory task running is a confound; nevertheless, the connectivity we derived in adults bears a marked similarity to that from previous papers (e.g. 25) and we do see significant changes with age. We therefore believe this to be an important addition to the paper and we would prefer to keep it.

      References

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      (3) Holmes, M. et al. A bi-planar coil system for nulling background magnetic fields in scalp mounted magnetoencephalography. NeuroImage 181, 760–774 (2018).

      (4) Seymour, R. A. et al. Using OPMs to measure neural activity in standing, mobile participants. NeuroImage 244, 118604 (2021).

      (5) Rea, M. et al. A 90-channel triaxial magnetoencephalography system using optically pumped magnetometers. annals of the new york academy of sciences 1517, https://doi.org/10.1111/nyas.14890 (2022).

      (6) Holmes, N. et al. Enabling ambulatory movement in wearable magnetoencephalography with matrix coil active magnetic shielding. NeuroImage 274, 120157 (2023).

      (7) Pakenham, D. O. et al. Post-stimulus beta responses are modulated by task duration. NeuroImage 206, 116288 (2020).

      (8) Fry, A. et al. Modulation of post-movement beta rebound by contraction force and rate of force development. Human Brain Mapping 37, 2493–2511 (2016).

      (9) Pfurtscheller, G. & Lopes da Silva, F. H. Event-related EEG/MEG synchronization and desynchronization: Basic principles. Clin Neurophysio 110, 1842–1857 (1999).

      (10) Seedat, Z. A. et al. The role of transient spectral ‘bursts’ in functional connectivity: A magnetoencephalography study. NeuroImage 209, 116537 (2020).

      (11) Baker, A. P. et al. Fast transient networks in spontaneous human brain activity. eLife 2014, 1867 (2014).

      (12) Vidaurre, D. et al. Spectrally resolved fast transient brain states in electrophysiological data. NeuroImage 126, 81–95 (2016).

      (13) Gaetz, W. & Cheyne, D. Localization of sensorimotor cortical rhythms induced by tactile stimulation using spatially filtered MEG. NeuroImage 30, 899–908 (2006).

      (14) Cheyne, D. et al. Neuromagnetic imaging of cortical oscillations accompanying tactile stimulation. Cognitive Brain Research 17, 599–611 (2003).

      (15) van Ede, F., Jensen, O. & Maris, E. Tactile expectation modulates pre-stimulus β-band oscillations in human sensorimotor cortex. NeuroImage 51, 867–876 (2010).

      (16) Salenius, S., Schnitzler, A., Salmelin, R., Jousmäki, V. & Hari, R. Modulation of Human Cortical Rolandic Rhythms during Natural Sensorimotor Tasks. NeuroImage 5, 221–228 (1997).

      (17) Cheyne, D. O. MEG studies of sensorimotor rhythms: A review. Experimental Neurology 245, 27–39 (2013).

      (18) Kilavik, B. E., Zaepffel, M., Brovelli, A., MacKay, W. A. & Riehle, A. The ups and downs of beta oscillations in sensorimotor cortex. Experimental Neurology 245, 15–26 (2013).

      (19) Bauer, M., Oostenveld, R., Peeters, M. & Fries, P. Tactile Spatial Attention Enhances Gamma-Band Activity in Somatosensory Cortex and Reduces Low-Frequency Activity in Parieto-Occipital Areas. J. Neurosci. 26, 490–501 (2006).

      (20) Barone, J. & Rossiter, H. E. Understanding the Role of Sensorimotor Beta Oscillations. Frontiers in Systems Neuroscience 15, (2021).

      (21) Rayson, H. et al. Bursting with Potential: How Sensorimotor Beta Bursts Develop from Infancy to Adulthood. J Neurosci 43, 8487–8503 (2023).

      (22) Hill, R. M. et al. Optimising the Sensitivity of Optically-Pumped Magnetometer Magnetoencephalography to Gamma Band Electrophysiological Activity. Imaging Neuroscience (2024) doi:10.1162/imag_a_00112.

      (23) Stenroos, M., Hunold, A. & Haueisen, J. Comparison of three-shell and simplified volume conductor models in magnetoencephalography. NeuroImage 94, 337–348 (2014).

      (24) Barratt, E. L., Francis, S. T., Morris, P. G. & Brookes, M. J. Mapping the topological organisation of beta oscillations in motor cortex using MEG. NeuroImage 181, 831–844 (2018).

      (25) Rier, L. et al. Test-Retest Reliability of the Human Connectome: An OPM-MEG study. Imaging Neuroscience (2023) doi:10.1162/imag_a_00020.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      We thank the three reviewers for their insightful feedback. We look forward to addressing the raised concerns in a revised version of the manuscript. There were a few common themes among the reviews that we will briefly touch upon now, and we will provide more details in the revised manuscript. 

      First, the reviewers asked for the reasoning behind the task ratios we implemented for the different attentional width conditions. The different ratios were selected to be as similar as possible given the size and spacing of our stimuli (aside from the narrowest cue width of one bin, the ratios for the others were 0.66, .6 and .66). As Figure 1b shows, while the ratios were similar, task difficulty is not constant across cue widths: spreading attention makes the task more difficult generally. But, while the modeled width of the spatial distribution of attention changes monotonically with cue width, task difficulty does not. Furthermore, prior work has indicated that there is a relationship between task difficulty and the overall magnitude of the BOLD response, however we don’t suspect that this will influence the width of the modulation. How task difficulty influences the BOLD response is an important topic, and we hope that future work will investigate this relationship more directly.   

      Second, reviewers raised interest in the distribution of spatial attention in higher visual areas. In our study we focus only on early visual regions (V1-V3). This was primarily driven by pragmatic considerations, in that we only have retinotopic estimates for our participants in these early visual areas. Our modeling approach is dependent on having access to the population receptive field estimates for all voxels, and while the main experiment was scanned using whole brain coverage, retinotopy was measured in a separate session using a field of view only covering the occipital cortex.  

      Lastly, we appreciate the opportunity to clarify the purpose of the temporal interval analysis. The reviewer is correct in assuming we set out to test how much data is needed to recover the cortical modulation and how dynamic a signal the method can capture. This analysis does show that more data provides more reliable estimates, though the model was still able to recover the location and width of the attentional cue at shorter timescales of as few as two TRs. This has implications for future studies that may involve more dynamic tracking of the attentional field.

      Public Reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      The authors conducted an fMRI study to investigate the neural effects of sustaining attention to areas of different sizes. Participants were instructed to attend to alphanumeric characters arranged in a circular array. The size of attention field was manipulated in four levels, ranging from small (18 deg) to large (162 deg). They used a model-based method to visualize attentional modulation in early visual cortex V1 to V3, and found spatially congruent modulations of the BOLD response, i.e., as the attended area increased in size, the neural modulation also increased in size in the visual cortex. They suggest that this result is a neural manifestation of the zoomlens model of attention and that the model-based method can effectively reconstruct the neural modulation in the cortical space. 

      The study is well-designed with sophisticated and comprehensive data analysis. The results are robust and show strong support for a well-known model of spatial attention, the zoom-lens model. Overall, I find the results interesting and useful for the field of visual attention research. I have questions about some aspects of the results and analysis as well as the bigger picture. 

      (1) It appears that the modulation in V1 is weaker than V2 and V3 (Fig 2). In particular, the width modulation in V1 is not statistically significant (Fig 5). This result seems a bit unexpected. Given the known RF properties of neurons in these areas, in particular, smaller RF in V1, one might expect more spatially sensitive modulation in V1 than V2/V3. Some explanations and discussions would be helpful. Relatedly, one would also naturally wonder if this method can be applied to other extrastriate visual areas such as V4 and what the results look like. 

      We agree with the reviewer. It’s very interesting how the spatial resolution within different visual regions contributes to the overall modulation of the attentional field, and how this in turn would influence perception. Our data showed that fits in V1 appeared to be less precise than in V2 and V3. This can be seen in the goodness of fit of the model as well as the gain and absolute angular error estimates. The goodness of fit and gain were lowest in V1 and the absolute angular error was largest in V1 (see Figure 5). We speculate that the finer spatial granularity of V1 RFs was countered by a lower amplitude and SNR of attention-related modulation in V1, resulting in overall lower sensitivity to variation in attentional field width. Prior findings concur that the magnitude of covert spatial attention increases when moving from striate to extrastriate cortex (Bressler & Silver (2010); Buracas & Boynton (2007)). Notably, in our perception condition, V1 showed more spatially sensitive modulation (see Figure 7), consistent with the known RF properties of V1 neurons.

      Regarding the second point: unfortunately, our dataset did not allow us to explore higherorder cortical regions with the model-based approach. While the main experiment was scanned using a sequence with whole brain coverage, the pRF estimates came from a separate scanning session which only had limited occipital coverage. Our modeling approach is dependent on the polar angle estimates from this pRF session. We now explicitly state this limitation in the methods (lines 87-89):

      “In this session, the field of view was restricted to the occipital cortex to maximize SNR, thereby limiting the brain regions for which we had pRF estimates to V1, V2, and V3.”

      (2) I'm a bit confused about the angular error result. Fig 4 shows that the mean angular error is close to zero, but Fig 5 reports these values to be about 30-40 deg. Why the big discrepancy? Is it due to the latter reporting absolute errors? It seems reporting the overall bias is more useful than absolute value. 

      The reviewer’s inference here is exactly right: Figure 4 shows signed error, whereas Figure 5 shows absolute error. We show the signed error for the example participant because, (1) by presenting the full distribution of model estimates for one participant, readers have access to a more direct representation of the data, and (2) at the individual level it is possible to examine potential directional biases in the location estimates (which do not appear to be present). As we don’t suspect a consistent directional bias across the group, we believe the absolute error in location estimates is more informative in depicting the precision in location estimates using the model-based approach. In the revised manuscript, we modified Figure 5 to make the example participant’s data visually distinct for easy comparison. We have clarified this reasoning in the text (results lines 59-64):

      “The angular error distribution across blocks, separated by width condition, is shown in Figure 4 for one example participant to display block-to-block variation. The model reliably captured the location of the attentional field with low angular error and with no systematic directional bias. This result was observed across participants. We next examined the absolute angular error to assess the overall accuracy of our estimates.”

      (3) A significant effect is reported for amplitude in V3 (line 78), but the graph in Fig 5 shows hardly any difference. Please confirm the finding and also explain the directionality of the effect if there is indeed one. 

      We realize that the y-axis scale of Figure 5 was making it difficult to see that gain decreases with cue width in area V3. Instead of keeping the y-axis limits the same across visual regions, we now adapt the y-axis scale of each subplot to the range of data values:  

      We now also add the direction of the effect in the text (results lines 83-86):

      “We observed no significant relationship between gain and cue width in V1 and V2 (V1 t(7)=.54, p=.605; V2 t(7)=-2.19, p=.065), though we did find a significant effect in V3 illustrating that gain decreases with cue width (t(7)=-3.12, p=.017).”

      (4) The purpose of the temporal interval analysis is rather unclear. I assume it has to do with how much data is needed to recover the cortical modulation and hence how dynamic a signal the method can capture. While the results make sense (i.e., more data is better), there is no obvious conclusion and/or interpretation of its meaning. 

      We apologize for not making our reasoning clear. We now emphasize our reasoning in the revised manuscript (results lines 110-112). Our objective was to quantify how much data was needed to recover the dynamic signal. As expected, we found that including more data reduces noise (averaging helps), but importantly, we found that we still obtained meaningful model fits even with limited data. We believe this has important implications for future paradigms that explore more dynamic deployment of spatial attention, where one would not want to average over multiple repetitions of a condition.

      The first paragraph of the Temporal Interval Analysis section in the results now reads: 

      “In the previous analyses, we leveraged the fact that the attentional cue remained constant for 5-trial blocks (spatial profiles were computed by averaging BOLD measurements across a block of 10 TRs). We next examined the degree to which we were able to recover the attentional field on a moment-by-moment (TR-by-TR) basis. To do this, we systematically adjusted the number of TRs that contributed to the averaged spatial response profile. To maintain a constant number of observations across the temporal interval conditions, we randomly sampled a subset of TRs from each block. This allowed us to determine the amount of data needed to recover the attentional field, with a goal of examining the usability of our modeling approach in future paradigms involving more dynamic deployment of spatial attention.”

      (5) I think it would be useful for the authors to make a more explicit connection to previous studies in this literature. In particular, two studies seem particularly relevant. First, how do the present results relate to those in Muller et al (2003, reference 37), which also found a zoom-lens type of neural effects. Second, how does the present method compare with spatial encoding model in Sprague & Serences (2013, reference 56), which also reconstructs the neural modulation of spatial attention. More discussions of these studies will help put the current study in the larger context.

      We now make a more explicit connection to prior work in the discussion section (lines 34-54). 

      “We introduced a novel modeling approach that recovered the location and the size of the attentional field. Our data show that the estimated spatial spread of attentional modulation (as indicated by the recovered FWHM) consistently broadened with the cue width, replicating prior work (Müller et al., 2003; Herrmann et al., 2010). Our results go beyond prior work by linking the spatial profiles to pRF estimates, allowing us to quantify the spread of both attentional and perceptual modulation in degrees of polar angle. Interestingly, the FWHM estimates for the attentional and perceptual spatial profiles were highly similar. Additionally, for area V3 we replicate that the population response magnitude decreased with cue width (Müller et al., 2003; Feldmann-Wüstefeld and Awh, 2020). One innovation of our method is that it directly reconstructs attention-driven modulations of responses in visual cortex, setting it apart from other methods, such as inverted encoding models (e.g. Sprague & Serences, 2013). Finally, we demonstrated that our method has potential to be used in more dynamic settings, in which changes in the attentional field need to be tracked on a shorter timescale.”

      (6) Fig 4b, referenced on line 123, does not exist. 

      We have corrected the text to reference the appropriate figure (Figure 5, results line 136).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      The study in question utilizes functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to dynamically estimate the locus and extent of covert spatial attention from visuocortical activity. The authors aim to address an important gap in our understanding of how the size of the attentional field is represented within the visual cortex. They present a novel paradigm that allows for the estimation of the spatial tuning of the attentional field and demonstrate the ability to reliably recover both the location and width of the attentional field based on BOLD responses. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) Innovative Paradigm: The development of a new approach to estimate the spatial tuning of the attentional field is a significant strength of this study. It provides a fresh perspective on how spatial attention modulates visual perception. 

      (2) Refined fMRI Analysis: The use of fMRI to track the spatial tuning of the attentional field across different visual regions is methodologically rigorous and provides valuable insights into the neural mechanisms underlying attentional modulation. 

      (3) Clear Presentation: The manuscript is well-organized, and the results are presented clearly, which aids in the reader's comprehension of the complex data and analyses involved. 

      We thank the reviewer for summarizing the strengths in our work. 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Lack of Neutral Cue Condition: The study does not include a neutral cue condition where the cue width spans 360°, which could serve as a valuable baseline for assessing the BOLD response enhancements and diminishments in both attended and non-attended areas. 

      We do not think that the lack of a neutral cue condition substantially limits our ability to address the core questions of interest in the present work. We set out to estimate the locus and the spread of covert spatial attention. By definition, a neutral cue does not have a focus of attention as the whole annulus becomes task relevant. We agree with the reviewer that how spatial attention influences the magnitude of the BOLD response is still not well defined; i.e., does attending a location multiplicatively enhance responses at an attended location or does it instead act to suppress responses outside the focus of attention? A neutral cue condition would be necessary to be able to explore these types of questions. However, our findings don’t rest on any assumptions about this. Instead, we quantify the attentional modulation with a model-based approach and show that we can reliably recover its locus, and reveal a broadening in the attentional modulation with wider cues. 

      We realize that throughout the original manuscript we often used the term ‘attentional enhancement,’ which might inadvertently specify an increase with respect to a neutral condition. To be more agnostic to the directionality of the effect, we have changed this to ‘attentional modulation’ and ‘attentional gain’ throughout the manuscript. Additionally, we have added results and visualizations for the baseline parameter to all results figures (Figures 4-7) to help readers further interpret our findings.  

      (2) Clarity on Task Difficulty Ratios: The explicit reasoning for the chosen letter-to-number ratios for various cue widths is not detailed. Ensuring clarity on these ratios is crucial, as it affects the task difficulty and the comparability of behavioral performance across different cue widths. It is essential that observed differences in behavior and BOLD signals are attributable solely to changes in cue width and not confounded by variations in task difficulty.  

      The ratios were selected to be as similar as possible given the size and spacing of our stimuli (aside from the narrowest cue width of one bin, the proportions for the others were 0.67, 0.60, and 0.67). We have updated the methods section to state this explicitly (methods lines 36-38): 

      “The ratios were selected to be as similar as possible given the size and spacing of our stimuli (aside from the one-bin cue, the proportions for the other cues were 0.67, 0.60, 0.67).”

      As Figure 1b shows, task accuracy showed small and non-monotonic changes across the three larger cue widths, dissociable from the monotonic pattern seen for the modelestimated width of the attentional field. Furthermore, as prior work has indicated that there is a relationship between task difficulty and the overall magnitude of the BOLD response (e.g., Ress, Backus & Heeger, 2000), we would primarily expect effects of task difficulty on the gain or baseline rather than the width. How exactly task difficulty influences the BOLD response and whether this would, in fact, interact with the width of the attentional field is an important topic, and we hope that future work will investigate this relationship more directly.  

      We have clarified these points within the text, and now explicitly motivate future work looking at these important interactions (discussion lines 57-67):

      “The observed effects of attentional field width were unlikely to be directly attributable to variation in task difficulty. Participants' task in our study was to discriminate whether more numbers or more letters were presented within a cued region of an iso-eccentric annulus of white noise. For our different cue widths, the ratios of numbers and letters were selected to be as similar as possible given the size and spacing of our stimuli. Changes in accuracy across the three larger cue widths were small and non-monotonic, implying task difficulty was dissociable from width per se. This dissociation bolsters the interpretability of our model fits; nevertheless, future work should further investigate how task difficulty interacts with the spread of the attentional field and the amplitude of attention-related BOLD effects (cf. Ress, Backus & Heeger, 2000).”

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      In this report, the authors tested how manipulating the contiguous set of stimuli on the screen that should be used to guide behavior - that is, the scope of visual spatial attention - impacts the magnitude and profile of well-established attentional enhancements in visual retinotopic cortex. During fMRI scanning, participants attended to a cued section of the screen for blocks of trials and performed a letter vs digit discrimination task at each attended location (and judged whether the majority of characters were letters/digits). Importantly, the visual stimulus was identical across attention conditions, so any observed response modulations are due to topdown task demands rather than visual input. The authors employ population receptive field (pRF) models, which are used to sort voxel activation with respect to the location and scope of spatial attention and fit a Gaussian-like function to the profile of attentional enhancement from each region and condition. The authors find that attending to a broader region of space expands the profile of attentional enhancement across the cortex (with a larger effect in higher visual areas), but does not strongly impact the magnitude of this enhancement, such that each attended stimulus is enhanced to a similar degree. Interestingly, these modulations, overall, mimic changes in response properties caused by changes to the stimulus itself (increase in contrast matching the attended location in the primary experiment). The finding that attentional enhancement primarily broadens, but does not substantially weaken in most regions, is an important addition to our understanding of the impact of distributed attention on neural responses, and will provide meaningful constraints to neural models of attentional enhancement. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) Well-designed manipulations (changing location and scope of spatial attention), and careful retinotopic/pRF mapping, allow for a robust assay of the spatial profile of attentional enhancement, which has not been carefully measured in previous studies.

      (2) Results are overall clear, especially concerning width of the spatial region of attentional enhancement, and lack of clear and consistent evidence for reduction in the amplitude of enhancement profile.

      (3) Model-fitting to characterize spatial scope of enhancement improves interpretability of findings.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the strengths of our study. 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Task difficulty seems to vary as a function of spatial scope of attention, with varying ratios of letters/digits across spatial scope conditions, which may complicate interpretations of neural modulation results  

      The reviewer is correct in observing that task accuracy varied across cue widths. Though we selected the task ratios to be as similar as possible given the size and spacing of our stimuli (aside from the narrowest cue width of one bin, the proportions for the others were 0.67, 0.60, and 0.67), behavioral accuracy across the three larger cue widths was not identical. Prior research has shown that there is a relationship between task difficulty and the overall magnitude of the BOLD response (e.g., Ress, Backus & Heeger, 2000). Thus, we would primarily expect effects of task difficulty on gain rather than width. How task difficulty influences the BOLD response and whether this would, in fact, interact with the width of the attentional field is an important topic, and we hope that future work will investigate this relationship more directly.  

      To clarify these points and highlight the potential for future work looking at these important interactions, we added the following text to the discussion section (discussion lines 57-67):

      “The observed effects of attentional field width were unlikely to be directly attributable to variation in task difficulty. Participants' task in our study was to discriminate whether more numbers or more letters were presented within a cued region of an iso-eccentric annulus of white noise. For our different cue widths, the ratios of numbers and letters were selected to be as similar as possible given the size and spacing of our stimuli. Changes in accuracy across the three larger cue widths were small and non-monotonic, implying task difficulty was dissociable from width per se. This dissociation bolsters the interpretability of our model fits; nevertheless, future work should further investigate how task difficulty interacts with the spread of the attentional field and the amplitude of attention-related BOLD effects (cf. Ress, Backus and Heeger, 2000).”

      (2) Some aspects of analysis/data sorting are unclear (e.g., how are voxels selected for analyses?) 

      We apologize for not describing our voxel selection in sufficient detail. Some of the questions raised in the private comments are closely related to this point, we therefore aim to clarify all concerns below:

      - Voxel selection: To select voxels that contribute to the 1D spatial profiles, we relied on the independent pRF dataset. We first defined some general requirements that needed to be met. Specifically, 1) the goodness of fit (R<sup>2</sup>) of the pRF fits needed to be greater than 10%; 2) the estimated eccentricity had to fall within [0.7 9.1] degree eccentricity (to exclude voxels in the fovea and voxels with estimated eccentricities larger than the pRF mapping stimulus); 3) the estimated size must be greater than 0.01 degree visual angle. 

      Next, we included only voxels whose pRF overlapped with the white noise annulus. Estimated eccentricity was used to select all voxels whose eccentricity estimate fell within the annulus bounds. However, here it is also important to take the size of the pRF into account. Some voxels’ estimated eccentricity might fall just outside the annulus, but will still have substantial overlap due to the size of their pRF. Therefore, we further included all voxels whose estimated pRF size resulted in overlap with the annulus. 

      This implies that some voxels with greater eccentricities and larger pRF sizes contribute to the 1D profile, which will influence the spatial specificity of the 1D profiles. However, we want to emphasize that in our view, the exact FWHM value is not so much of interest, as this will always be dependent on the voxel selection and many other data processing steps. Instead, we focus on the relative differences of the FWHM driven by the parametric attentional cue width manipulation. 

      - Data sorting and binning. The reviewer raises an important point about how the FWHM value should be interpreted considering the data processing steps. To generate the 1D spatial profile, we binned voxels based on their estimated polar angle preference into 6degree bins and applied a moving average of 18 degrees to smooth the 1D profiles. Both of these processing steps will influence the spatial specificity of the profile. The binning step facilitates recentering based on cue center and combining across trials.

      To explore the extent to which the moving average substantially impacted our results, we reran our analyses without that smoothing step. The vast majority of the results held. In V1, we found a significant effect of cue width on FWHM where the result was not significant previously (t(7)=2.52, p\=.040). Additionally, when looking at the minimum number of TRs needed to see a significant effect of cue width on FWHM, without the smoothing step in V1 it took 10 TRs (not significant at 10 TRs previously), in V2 it took 5 TRs (10 previously), and in V3 it took 3 TRs (2 previously). The other notable difference is that FWHM was generally a bit larger when the moving average smoothing was performed. We have visualized the group results for the FWHM estimates below to help with comparison. 

      Author response image 1.

      No moving average smoothing:

      Voxel selection methods have been clarified in methods section lines 132-139:

      “Within each ROI, pRF modeling results were used to constrain voxel selection used in the main experiment. We excluded voxels with a preferred eccentricity outside the bounds of the pRF stimulus (<0.7° and >9.1°), with a pRF size smaller than 0.01°, or with poor spatial selectivity as indicated by the pRF model fit (R2 < 10%). Following our 2D visualizations (see below), we further constrained voxel selection by only including voxels whose pRF overlapped with the white noise annulus. We included all voxels with an estimated eccentricity within the annulus bounds, as well as voxels with an estimated pRF size that would overlap the annulus.”

      Data binning methods have been clarified in methods section lines 154-159: 

      “Voxels with pRFs overlapping the white noise annulus were grouped into 60 bins according to their pRF polar angle estimate (6° polar angle bin width). We computed a median BOLD response within each bin. This facilitated the recentering of each profile to align all cue centers for subsequent combining across trials. To improve the signal-to-noise ratio, the resulting profile was smoothed with a moving average filter (width 18° polar angle; see Figure 2b).”

      (3) While the focus of this report is on modulations of visual cortex responses due to attention, the lack of inclusion of results from other retinotopic areas (e.g. V3AB, hV4, IPS regions like IPS0/1) is a weakness 

      We agree with the reviewer that using this approach in other retinotopic areas would be of significant interest. In this case, population receptive field mapping occurred in a separate session with a field of view only covering the occipital cortex (in contrast to the experimental session, which had whole-brain coverage). Because our modeling approach relies on these pRF estimates, we were unable to explore higher visual areas. However, we hope future work will follow up on this.

      We have added the following text to the methods section describing the pRF mapping session (lines 87-89):

      “In this session, the field of view was restricted to the occipital cortex to maximize SNR, thereby limiting the brain regions for which we had pRF estimates to V1, V2, and V3.”

      (4) Additional analyses comparing model fits across amounts of data analyzed suggest the model fitting procedure is biased, with some parameters (e.g., FWHM, error, gain) scaling with noise. 

      In this analysis, we sought to test how much data was needed to recover the attentional field, in view of the need for additional fMRI-based tools for use in tasks that involve more rapid dynamic adaptation of attention. Though we did find that more data reduced noise (and accordingly decreased absolute error and amplitude while increasing FWHM and R<sup>2</sup>), absolute angular error remained low across different temporal intervals (well below the chance level of 90°). With regard to FWHM, we believe that the more important finding is that the model-estimated FWHM was modulated by cue width at shorter timescales of as few as two TRs while maintaining relatively low angular error. We refrain from drawing conclusions here on the basis of the exact FWHM values, both because we don’t have a ground truth for the attentional field and because various processing pipeline steps can impact the values as well. Rather, we are looking at relative value and overall patterns in the estimates. The observed patterns imply that the model recovers meaningful modulation of the attentional field even at shorter time scales.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Additional data reporting and discussion of results are needed as outlined in the public review. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The current experimental design effectively captured the impact of varying cue widths on the BOLD response in the visual cortex. However, the inclusion of a neutral cue condition, where the cue width spans 360{degree sign} and all peripheral stimuli are attended, could serve as a valuable baseline. This would enable a quantitative assessment of how much the BOLD response is enhanced in specific spatial regions due to focused cues and, conversely, how much it is diminished in non-attended areas, along with the spatial extent of these effects. 

      Please refer to our response in the public review. 

      (2) While the study provides valuable insights into BOLD signal changes in visual areas corresponding to the focus of attention, it does not extend its analysis to the impact on regions outside the focus of attention. It would be beneficial to explore whether there is a corresponding decrease in BOLD signal in non-attended regions, and if identified, to describe the spatial extent and position of this effect relative to the attended area. Such an analysis could yield deeper insights into how attention influences activity across the visual cortex. 

      We agree with the reviewer that it is very interesting to examine the spread of attention across the whole visual field. Our experiment was designed to focus on width modulations at a fixed eccentricity, but future work should explore how the attentional field changes with eccentricity and interacts with spatial variations across the visual field. This is highlighted in our discussion section (lines 76-81): 

      “Future work can help provide a better understanding of the contribution of spatial attention by considering how the attentional field interacts with these well described spatial variations across the visual field. Measuring the full spatial distribution of the attentional field (across both eccentricity and polar angle) will shed light on how spatial attention guides perception by interacting with the non-uniformity of spatial representations.”

      The addition of figure panels for the estimated baseline parameter in Figures 4-7 provides further information about BOLD effects in unattended regions of the annulus.  

      (3) The rationale behind the selection of task difficulty ratios for different cue widths, specifically the letter-to-number ratios of 1:0, 1:2, 2:3, and 3:6 (or vice versa) for cue widths of 18{degree sign}, 54{degree sign}, 90{degree sign}, and 162{degree sign} respectively, was not explicitly discussed. It would be beneficial to clarify the basis for these ratios, as they may influence the perceived difficulty of the task and thus the comparability of behavioral performance across different cue widths. Ensuring that the task difficulty is consistent across conditions is crucial for attributing differences in behavior and BOLD signals solely to changes in cue width and not confounded by variations in task difficulty. 

      Please refer to our response in the public review. We now clarify why we selected these ratios, and acknowledge more explicitly that behavioral performance differed across width conditions. See also our reply to private comment 1 from Reviewer 3 for some additional analyses examining task related influences.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Task difficulty: the task seems exceptionally challenging. Stimuli are presented at a relativelyeccentric position for a very brief duration, and a large number of comparisons must be made across a broad region of space. This is reflected in the behavioral performance, which decreases rapidly as the scope of attention increases (Fig. 1). Because trials are blocked, does this change in task difficulty across conditions impact the degree to which neural responses are modulated? How should we consider differences in task difficulty in interpreting the conclusions (especially with respect to the amplitude parameter)? Also, note that the difficulty scales both with number of stimuli - as more need to be compared - but also with the ratio, which differs nonmonotonically across task conditions. One way to dissociate these might be RT: for 54/162, which both employ the same ratio of letter/digits and have similar accuracy, is RT longer for 162, which requires attending more stimuli? 

      In addition to our comments in response to the public review, we emphasize that the reviewer makes an important point that there are differences in task difficulty, though the ratios are as close as they can be given the size and spacing of our stimuli. Behavioral performance varied non-monotonically with cue width, bolstering our confidence that our monotonically increasing model-estimated width is likely not entirely driven by task difficulty. There nevertheless remain open questions related to how task difficulty does impact BOLD attentional modulation, which we hope future work will more directly investigate.

      The reviewer's comments identify two ways our data might preliminarily speak to questions about BOLD attentional modulation and task difficulty. First: how might the amplitude parameter reflect task difficulty? This is an apt question as we agree with the reviewer that it would be a likely candidate in which to observe effects of task difficulty. We do find a small effect of cue width on our amplitude estimates (amplitude decreases with width) in V3. Using the same analysis technique to look at the relationship between task difficulty and amplitude, we find no clear relationship in any of the visual areas (all p >= 0.165, testing whether the slopes differed from zero at the group level using a one-sample t-test). We believe future work using other experimental manipulations should look more systematically at the relationship between task difficulty and amplitude of the attentional BOLD enhancement.

      Second: Does the same ratio at different widths elicit different behavioral responses (namely accuracy and RT)? We followed the reviewer’s suggestion to compare performance between cue widths of three and nine (identical ratios, different widths; see Author response image 2 and Figure 5). We found that, using a paired t-test, behavioral accuracy differed between the two cue widths (mean accuracy of 0.73 versus 0.69, p = 0.008), with better performance for cue width three. RT did not differ significantly between the two conditions (paired t-test, p = 0.729). This could be due to the fact that participants were not incentivized to respond as quickly as possible, they merely needed to respond before the end of the response window (1.25 s) following the stimulus presentation (0.5 s). The comparisons for accuracy and RT (calculated from time of stimulus appearance) are plotted below:

      Author response image 2.

      In summary, with matched stimulus ratios, the wider cue was associated with worse (though not slower) performance. This could be due to the fact that more elements are involved and/or that tasks become more difficult when attending to a broader swath of space. Given these results, we believe that future studies targeting difficulty effects should use direct and independent manipulations of task difficulty and attentional width. 

      (2) Eye movements: while the authors do a good job addressing the average eccentricity of fixation, I'm not sure this fully addresses concerns with eye movements, especially for the character-discrimination task which surely benefits from foveation (and requires a great deal of control to minimize saccades!). Can the authors additionally provide data on, e.g., # of fixations within the attended stimulus annulus, or fixation heatmap, or # of saccades, or some other indicator of likelihood of fixating the letter stimuli for each condition? 

      We agree with the reviewer that this task is surely much easier if one foveated the stimuli, and it did indeed require control to minimize saccades to the annulus. (We appreciate the effort and motivation of our participants!) We are happy to provide additional data to address these reasonable concerns about eye movements. Below, we have visualized the number of fixations to the annulus, separated by participant and width. Though there is variability across participants, there are at most 16 instances of fixations to the annulus for a given participant, combined across all width conditions. The median number of fixations to the annulus per width is zero (shown in red). Considering the amount of time participants engaged in the task (between 8 and 12 runs of the task, each run with 100 trials), this indicates participants were generally successful at maintaining central fixation while the stimuli were presented.

      Author response image 3.

      We added the results of this analysis to the methods section (lines 205-208):

      “Additionally, we examined the number of fixations to the white noise annulus itself. No participant had more than 16 fixations (out of 800-1200 trials) to the annulus during the task, further suggesting that participants successfully maintained fixation.”

      (3) pRF sorting and smoothing: Throughout, the authors are analyzing data binned based on pRF properties with respect to the attended location ("voxels with pRFs overlapping with the white noise annulus", line 243-244) First, what does this mean? Does the pRF center need to be within the annulus? Or is there a threshold based on the pRF size? If so, how is this implemented? Additionally, considering the methods text in lines 242-247, the authors mention that they bin across 6 deg-wide bins and smooth with a moving average (18 deg), which I think will lead to further expansion of the profile of attentional enhancement (see also below) 

      We provide a detailed response in the public review. Furthermore, we have clarified the voxel selection procedure in the Methods (lines 132–139 & 154–159).

      (4) FWHM values: The authors interpret the larger FWHMs estimated from their model-fitting than the actual size of the attended region as a meaningful result. However, depending on details of the sorting procedure above, this may just be due to the data processing itself. One way to identify how much expansion of FWHM occurs due to analysis is by simulating data given estimates of pRF properties for a 'known' shape of modulation (e.g., square wave exactly spanning the attended aperture) and compare the resulting FWHM to that observed for attention and perception conditions (e.g., Fig. 7c). 

      We provide a detailed response in the public review. The essence of our response is to refrain from interpreting the precise recovered FWHM values, which will be influenced by multiple processing steps, and instead to focus on relative differences as a function of the attentional cue width. Accordingly, we did not add simulations to the revised manuscript, although we agree with the reviewer that such simulations could shed light on the underlying spatial resolution, and how binning and smoothing influences the estimated FWHM. We have clarified our interpretation of FWHM results in the manuscript as follows:

      Results lines 137-141:

      “One possibility is that the BOLD-derived FWHM might tend to overestimate the retinotopic extent of the modulation, perhaps driven by binning and smoothing processing steps to create the 1D spatial profiles. If this were the case, we would expect to obtain similar FWHM estimates when modeling the perceptual modulations as well.”

      Results lines 169-175:

      “Mirroring the results from the attentional manipulation, FWHM estimates systematically exceeded the nominal size of the perceptually modulated region of the visual field. Comparing the estimated FWHMs of the perceptual and attentional spatial profiles (Figure 7c) revealed that the estimated widths were highly comparable (Pearson correlation r=0.664 across width conditions and visual regions). Importantly, the relative differences in FWHM show meaningful effects of both cue and contrast width in a similar manner for both attentional and perceptual forms of modulation.”

      Discussion lines 16-22:

      “We also found that the estimated spatial spread of the attentional modulation (as indicated by the recovered FWHM) was consistently wider than the cued region itself. We therefore compared the spread of the attention field with the spatial profile of a perceptually induced width manipulation. The results were comparable in both the attentional and perceptual versions of the task, suggesting that cueing attention to a region results in a similar 1D spatial profile to when the stimulus contrast is simply increased in that region.”

      (5) Baseline parameter: looking at the 'raw' response profiles shown in Fig. 2b, it looks, at first, like the wider attentional window shows substantially lower enhancement. However, this seems to be mitigated by the shift of the curve downwards. Can the authors analyze the baseline parameter in a similar manner as their amplitude analyses throughout? This is especially interesting in contrast to the perception results (Fig. 7), for which the baseline does not seem to scale in a similar way. 

      We agree with the reviewer that the baseline parameter is worth examining, and have therefore added panels displaying the baseline parameter into all results figures (Figures 4-7). There was no significant association between cue width and baseline offset in any of the three visual regions.

      (6) Outlier: Fig. 5, V2, Amplitude result seems to have a substantial outlier - is there any notable difference in e.g. retinotopy in this participant? 

      One participant indeed has a notably larger median amplitude estimate in V2. Below, we plot the spatial coverage from the pRF data for this participant (022), as well as all other participants.

      Author response image 4.

      Each subplot represents a participant's 2D histogram of included voxels for the 1D spatial profiles; the colors indicate the proportion of voxels that fell within a specific x,y coordinate bin. Note that this visualization only shows x and y estimates and does not take into account size of the pRF. While there is variation across participants in the visual field coverage, the overall similarity of the maps indicates that retinotopy is unlikely to be the explanation. 

      To further explore whether this participant might be an outlier, we additionally looked at behavioral performance, angular error and FWHM parameters as well as the goodness of fit of the model. On all these criteria this participant did not appear to be an outlier. We therefore see no reason to exclude this participant from the analyses.  

      (7) Fig. 4 vs Fig. 5: I understand that Fig. 4 shows results from a single participant, showing variability across blocks, while Fig. 5 shows aggregate results across participants. However, the Angular Error figure shows complementary results - Fig. 4 shows the variability of best-fit angular error, while Fig. 5 shows the average deviation (approximately the width of the error distribution). This makes sense I think, but perhaps the abs(error) for the single participant shown in Fig. 4 should be included in the caption so we can easily compare between figures. 

      That's right: the Figure 4 results show the signed error, whereas the Figure 5 results show the absolute error. We agree that reporting the absolute error values for the example participant would facilitate comparison. Rather than add the values to the text, we have made the example participant’s data visually distinct within Figure 5 for easy comparison.  

      (8) Bias in model fits: the analysis shown in Fig. 6 compares the estimated parameters across amounts of data used to compute attentional modulation profiles for fitting those parameters. If the model-fitting procedure were unbiased, my sense is we would likely see no impact of the number of TRs on the parameters (R^2 should improve, abs(error) should improve, but FWHM, amplitude, baseline, etc should be approximately stable, if noisier). However, instead, it looks like more/less data leads to biased estimates, such that FWHM is biased to be smaller with more noise, and amplitude is biased to be larger. This suggests (to me) that the fit is landing on a spiky function that captures a noise wiggle in the profile. I don't think this is a problem for the primary results across the whole block of 10 TRs, which is the main point of the paper. Indeed, I'm not sure what this figure is really adding, since the single-TR result isn't pursued further (see below). 

      Please refer to our response in the public review, comment 4. 

      (9) 'Dynamics': The paper, starting in the title, claims to get at the 'dynamics' of attention fields. At least to me, that word implies something that changes over time (rather than across trials). Maybe I'm misinterpreting the intent of the authors, but at present, I'm not sure the use of the word is justified. That said, if the authors could analyze the temporal evolution of the attention field through each block of trials at 1- or 2-TR resolution, I think that could be a neat addition to the paper and would support the claim that the study assays dynamic attention fields. 

      We thank the reviewer for giving us a chance to speak more directly to the dynamic aspect of our approach. Here, we specifically use the word “dynamic” to refer to trial-to-trial dynamics.  Importantly, our temporal interval analysis suggests that we can recover information about the attentional field at a relatively fine-grained temporal resolution (a few seconds, or 2 TRs). Following this methodological proof-of-concept to dynamically track the attentional field, we are excited about future work that can more directly investigate the manner in which the attentional field evolves through time, especially in comparison to other methods that first require training on large amounts of data.

      (10) Correction for multiple comparisons across ROIs: it seems that it may be necessary to correct statistical tests for multiple comparisons across each ROI (e.g., Fig. 5 regression tests). If this isn't necessary, the authors should include some justification. I'm not sure this changes any conclusions, but is worth considering. 

      We appreciate the opportunity to explain our reasoning regarding multiple comparisons. We thought it appropriate not to correct as we are not comparing across regions and are not treating tests of V1, V2, and V3 as multiple opportunities to support a common hypothesis. Rather, the presence or absence of an effect in each visual region is a separate question. We would typically perform correction for multiple comparisons to control the familywise error rate when conducting a family of tests addressing a common hypothesis. We have added this to the Methods section (lines 192-195): 

      “No multiple comparison correction was applied, as the different tests for each region are treated as separate questions. However, using a threshold of 0.017 for p-values would correct for comparisons across the three brain regions.”

      However, we are happy to provide corrected results. If we use Bonferroni correction across ROIs (i.e. multiply p-values by three), there are some small changes from significant to only trending towards significance, but these changes don’t affect any core results. The changes that go from significant to trending are:

      Associated with Figure 5 – In V3, the relationship of cue width to amplitude goes from a p-value of 0.017 to 0.051.

      Associated with Figure 6 –

      V1: the effect of cue width on FWHM goes from p = 0.043 to 0.128.

      V2: the effect of TR on both FWHM and R2 goes from p = ~0.02 to ~0.06. 

      V3: the effect of cue width on amplitude goes from p = 0.024 to 0.073.

    1. Author Response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Expressed concern that FOOOF may not be sensitive to peaks located at the edges of the spectrum and suggested using rhythmicity as an alternative measure of oscillatory activity.

      To address this concern, we first conducted a simulation in which we generated power spectra with a single periodic component while varying its parameters. The results confirmed that FOOOF may indeed have reduced sensitivity to low-frequency periodic components. In such cases, periodic activity can be conflated with aperiodic activity, leading to inflated estimates of the aperiodic component. These simulation results are presented in detail at the end of the Supplement.

      To further investigate whether the low-frequency activity in our datasets may be oscillatory, we employed the phase-autocorrelation function (pACF), a measure of rhythmicity developed by Myrov et al. (2024). We compared pACF and FOOOF-derived parameters using linear mixed models at each channel–frequency– time point (see Methods for details). Our analyses showed that pACF activity closely resembles periodic activity across all three datasets, and is dissimilar to aperiodic parameters (see Figures 5, S4, S5, S21, S22, S34, S35). This supports the interpretation that, in our data, aperiodic activity is not conflated with periodic activity.

      I was concerned that “there were no dedicated analyses in the paper to show that the aperiodic changes account for the theta changes.”

      To address this concern, we used linear mixed models to estimate the association between FOOOF parameters and baseline-corrected time-frequency activity. These models were fitted at each channel-frequency-time point. Our results indicate that aperiodic activity is correlated with low-frequency (theta) baseline-corrected activity, while periodic activity is correlated primarily with activity in the alpha/beta range, but not with theta (see Figures 4, S3, S20, S33). Additionally, the exponent parameter exhibited a negative correlation in the gamma frequency range.

      These findings support the reviewer's hypothesis: “I would also like to note that if the theta effect is only the aperiodic shift in disguise, we should see a concomitant increase in delta activity too – maybe even a decrease at high frequencies.” Overall, the results are consistent with our interpretation that low-frequency baseline-corrected activity reflects changes in aperiodic, rather than periodic, activity.

      “On page 7 it is noted that baseline correction might subtract a significant amount of ongoing periodic activity. I would replace the word "subtract" with "remove" as not all baseline correction procedures are subtractive. Furthermore, while this sentence makes it sound like a problem, this is, to my mind, a feature, not a bug - baseline correction is meant to take away whatever is ongoing, be it oscillatory or not, and emphasise changes compared to that, in response to some event.”

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful clarification. We have revised the sentence accordingly to read: “Our results show that classical baseline correction can remove continuous oscillatory activity that is present both during baseline and after stimulus onset, because it treats all baseline signals as 'background' to be removed without distinguishing between transient and continuous oscillations. While this is consistent with the intended purpose of baseline correction---to highlight changes relative to ongoing activity---it may also lead to unintended consequences, such as misinterpreting aperiodic activity as an increase in poststimulus theta oscillations.”

      In addition, we have made several broader revisions throughout the manuscript to improve clarity and accuracy in response to the reviewer’s feedback:

      (1) We have softened our interpretation of changes in the theta range. We no longer claim that these effects are solely due to aperiodic activity; rather, we now state that our findings suggest a potential contribution of aperiodic activity to signals typically interpreted as theta oscillations.

      (2) We have revised our language to avoid suggesting a direct “interplay” between periodic and aperiodic components. Instead, we emphasize the concurrent presence of both components, using more precise and cautious formulations.

      (3) We have clarified our discussion of baseline normalization approaches, explicitly noting that our findings hold regardless of whether a subtractive or divisive baseline correction was applied.

      (4) Finally, we have restructured the introduction to improve readability and address points of potential confusion. Specifically, we have clarified the definition and role of 1/f activity, refined the discussion linking baseline correction to aperiodic activity, and improved transitions between key concepts.

      Reviewer suggested that “it might be good to show that the findings were not driven by the cognitive-complaint subgroup (although the internal replications suggest they were not).”

      We agree that it is important to demonstrate that our findings are not driven solely by the cognitive-complaint subgroup. While we did not include additional figures in the manuscript due to their limited relevance to the primary research question, we have attached figures that explicitly show the comparison between the clinical and control groups here in the response to reviewers. These figures include non-significant effects.

      Author response image 1.

      Results of the linear mixed model analysis of periodic activity for comparison between conditions, including non-significant effect (see also Figure 7 in the paper)

      Author response image 2.

      Results of the linear mixed model analysis of aperiodic exponent for comparison between conditions, including nonsignificant effects (see also Figure 9 in the paper)

      Author response image 3.

      Results of the linear mixed model analysis of aperiodic offset for comparison between conditions, including non-significant effects (see also Figure S11 in the paper)

      “Were lure trials discarded completely, or were they included in the non-target group?”

      Thank you for the question. As described in the Methods section (EEG data preprocessing), lure trials were discarded entirely from further analysis and were not included in the non-target group.

      “Also, just as a side note, while this time-resolved approach is definitely new, it is not novel to this paper, at least two other groups have tried similar approaches, e.g., Wilson, da Silva Castanheira, & Baillet, 2022; Ameen, Jacobs, et al., 2024.”

      Thank you for drawing our attention to these relevant studies. We have now cited both Wilson et al. (2022) and Ameen et al. (2024) in our manuscript. While these papers did indeed use time-resolved approaches, to our knowledge our study is the first to use such an approach within a task-based paradigm.

      noted that it was unclear how the periodic component was reconstructed: “I understand that a Gaussian was recreated based on these parameters, but were frequencies between and around the Gaussians just zeroed out? Or rather, given a value of 1, so that it would be 0 after taking its log10.”

      The periodic component was reconstructed by summing the Gaussians derived from the FOOOF model parameters. Since the Gaussians asymptotically approach, but never reach, zero, there were no explicit zeros between them. We have included this explanation in the manuscript.

      “If my understanding is correct, the periodic and aperiodic analyses were not run on the singletrial level, but on trial-averaged TF representations. Is that correct? In that case, there was only a single observation per participant for each within-subject cell at each TF point. This means that model (4) on p. 15 just simplifies to a repeated-measures ANOVA, does it not? As hinted at later in this section, the model was run at each time point for aperiodic analyses, and at each TF point for periodic analyses, resulting in a series of p-values or a map of p-values, respectively, is that correct?”

      We thank the reviewer for this careful reading and helpful interpretation. The reviewer is correct that analyses were conducted on trial-averaged time-frequency representations. Model presented in equation 7 (as referred to in the current version of the manuscript) is indeed conceptually similar to a repeated-measures ANOVA in that it tests within-subject effects across conditions. However, due to some missing data (i.e., excluded conditions within subjects), we employed linear mixed-effects models (LMER), which can handle unbalanced data without resorting to listwise deletion. This provides more flexibility and preserves statistical power.

      The reviewer is also correct that the models were run at each channel-time point for the aperiodic analyses, and at each channel-time-frequency point for the periodic analyses, resulting in a series or map of p-values, respectively.

      suggested marking the mean response time and contrasting scalp topographies of response-related ERPs with those of aperiodic components.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful suggestion. In response, we have now marked the mean response time and associated confidence intervals on the relevant figures (Figures 8 and S8). Additionally, we have included a new figure (Figure S13) presenting both stimulus- and response-locked ERP scalp topographies for comparison with aperiodic activity.

      In the previous version of the manuscript, we assessed the relationship between ERPs and aperiodic parameters by computing correlations between their topographies at each time point. However, to maintain consistency with our other analyses and to provide a more fine-grained view, we revised this approach and now compute correlations at each channel–time point. This updated analysis is presented in Figure S14. The results confirm that the correlation between ERPs and aperiodic activity remains low, and we discuss these findings in the manuscript.

      Regardless of the low correlation, we have added the following statement to the manuscript to clarify our conceptual stance: “While contrasting response-related ERPs with aperiodic components can help address potential confounds, we believe that ERPs are not inherently separate from aperiodic or periodic activity. Instead, ERPs may reflect underlying changes in aperiodic and periodic activity. Therefore, different approaches to studying EEG activity should be seen as providing complementary rather than competing perspectives.”

      “On page 3, it is noted that distinct theta peaks were only observed in 2 participants. Was this through visual inspection?”

      Yes, this observation was based on visual inspection of the individual power spectra. We have included this explanation in the text.

      suggested improving the plots by reducing the number of conditions (e.g., averaging across conditions), increasing the size of the colorbars, and using different color scales for different frequency bands, given their differing value ranges. Additionally, the reviewer noted that the theta and alpha results appeared surprising and lacked their expected topographical patterns, possibly due to the color scale.

      We appreciate these thoughtful suggestions and have implemented all of them to improve the clarity and interpretability of the figures. Specifically, we reduced the number of conditions by averaging across them where appropriate, enlarged the colorbars for better readability, and applied separate color scales for different frequency bands to account for variability in dynamic range.

      In the process, we also identified and corrected an error in the code that had affected the topographies of periodic activity in the previous version of the manuscript. With this correction, the resulting topographical patterns are now more consistent with canonical findings and are easier to interpret. For example, activity in the beta range now shows a clear central distribution (see Figure 6B and Figure S5B), and frontal activity in the theta range is more apparent.

      This correction also directly addresses the reviewer’s concern that the “theta and alpha results (where visible) look surprising – the characteristic mid-frontal and posterior topographies, respectively, are not really present.” These unexpected patterns were primarily due to the aforementioned error.

      “Relatedly, why is the mu parameter used here for correlations? Why not simply the RT mean/median, or one of the other ex-Gaussian parameters? Was this an a priori decision?”

      We appreciate the reviewer's thoughtful question. While mean and median RTs are indeed commonly used as summary measures, we chose the mu parameter because it provides a more principled estimate of central tendency that explicitly accounts for the positive skew typically observed in RT distributions. Although we did not directly compare mu, mean and median in this dataset, our experience with similar datasets suggests that differences between them are typically small. We chose not to include other ex-Gaussian parameters (e.g., sigma, tau) to avoid unnecessary model complexity and potential overfitting, especially since our primary interest was not in modelling the full distribution of response variability. This decision was made a priori, although we note that the study was not pre-registered. We have now added a clarification in the manuscript to reflect this rationale.

      “Relatedly, were (some) analyses of the study preregistered?”

      The analyses were not preregistered. Our initial aim was to investigate differences in phaseamplitude coupling (PAC) between the clinical and control groups. However, we did not observe clear PAC in either group—an outcome consistent with recent concerns about the validity of PAC measures in scalp EEG data (see: https://doi.org/10.3390/a16120540). This unexpected finding prompted us to shift our focus toward examining the presence of theta activity and assessing its periodicity.

      The reviewer suggested examining whether there might be differences between trials preceded by a target versus trials preceded by a non-target, potentially reflecting a CNV-like mechanism.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful suggestion. The idea of investigating differences between trials preceded by a target versus a non-target, possibly reflecting a CNV-like mechanism, is indeed compelling. However, this question falls outside the scope of the current study and was not addressed in our analyses. We agree that this represents an interesting direction for future research.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      “For the spectral parameterization, it is recommended to report goodness-of-fit measures, to demonstrate that the models are well fit and the resulting parameters can be interpreted.”

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have added reports of goodness-of-fit measures in the supplementary material (Fig. S9, S25, S41). However, we would like to note that our simulation results suggest that high goodness-of-fit values are not always indicative of accurate parameter estimation. For example, in our simulations, the R² values remained high even when the periodic component was not detectable or when it was conflated with the aperiodic component (e.g., compare Fig. S48 with Fig. S47). We now mention this limitation in the revised manuscript to clarify the interpretation of the goodness-of-fit metrics.

      “Relatedly, it is typically recommended to set a maximum number of peaks for spectral parameterization (based on the expected number in the analyzed frequency range). Without doing so, the algorithm can potentially overfit an excessive number of peaks. What is the average number of peaks fit in the parameterized spectra? Does anything change significantly in setting a maximum number of peaks? This is worth evaluating and reporting.”

      We report the average number of peaks, which was 1.9—2 (Figure S10). The results were virtually identical when setting number of peaks to 3.

      “In the main text, I think the analyses of 'periodic power' (e.g. section ‘Periodic activity...’ and Figures 4 & 5 could be a little clearer / more explicit on the measure being analyzed. ‘Periodic’ power could in theory refer to the total power across different frequency bands, the parameterized peaks in the spectral models, the aperiodic-removed power across frequencies, etc. Based on the methods, I believe it is either the aperiodic power or an estimate of the total power in the periodic-only model fit. The methods should be clearer on this point, and the results should specify the measure being used.”

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this point. In our analyses, “periodic power” (or “periodic activity”) refers specifically to the periodic-only model fit. We have added clarifications under Figure 3 and in the Methods section to make this explicit in the revised manuscript.

      “The aperiodic component was further separated into the slope (exponent) and offset components". These two parameters describe the aperiodic component but are not a further decomposition per se - could be rephrased.”

      We thank the reviewer for alerting us to this potential misunderstanding. We have now rephrased the sentence to read: “The aperiodic component was characterised by the aperiodic slope (the negative counterpart of the exponent parameter) and the offset, which together describe the underlying broadband spectral shape.”

      “In the figures (e.g. Figure 5), the channel positions do not appear to be aligned with the head layout (for example - there are channels that extend out in front of the eyes).”

      Corrected.

      “Page 2: aperiodic activity 'can be described by a linear slope when plotted in semi-logarithmic space'. This is incorrect. A 1/f distributed power spectrum has a linear slope in log-log space, not semi-log.”

      Corrected.

      Page 7: "Our results clearly indicate that the classical baseline correction can subtract a significant amount of continuous periodic activity". I am unclear on what this means - it could be rephrased.

      We thank the reviewer to pointing out that the statement is not clear. We have now rephrased is to read: “Our results show that classical baseline correction can remove continuous oscillatory activity that is present both during baseline and after stimulus onset, because it treats all baseline signals as 'background' to be removed without distinguishing between transient and continuous oscillations.”

      ”Page 14: 'the FOOOF algorithm estimates the frequency spectrum in a semi-log space'. This is not quite correct - the algorithm parameterizes the spectrum in semi-log but does not itself estimate the spectrum.”

      Again, we thank the reviewer for alerting us to imprecise description. We have now changed the sentence to: “The FOOOF algorithm parameterises the frequency spectrum in a semi-logarithmic space”.

      We have made refinements to improve clarity, consistency, and flow of the main text. First, we streamlined the introduction by removing redundancies and ensuring a more concise presentation of key concepts. We also clarified our use of terminology, consistently referring to the ‘aperiodic slope’ throughout the manuscript, except where methodological descriptions necessitate the term ‘exponent.’ Additionally, we revised the final section of the introduction to better integrate the discussion of generalisability, ensuring that the inclusion of additional datasets feels more seamlessly connected to the study’s main objectives rather than appearing as an addendum. Finally, we carefully reviewed the entire manuscript to enhance coherence, particularly ensuring that discussions of periodic and aperiodic activity remain precise and do not imply an assumed interplay between the two components. We believe these revisions align with the reviewer’s suggestions and improve the overall readability and logical structure of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Raised concerns regarding the task's effectiveness in evoking theta power and the ability of our spectral parameterization method (specparam) to adequately quantify background activity around theta bursts.

      We thank Reviewer #3 for their constructive feedback. To address the concerns regarding the task’s effectiveness in evoking theta power and the adequacy of our spectral parameterization method, we have added additional visualizations using a log-y axis ****(Figures S1, S19, S32). These figures demonstrate that, in baseline-corrected data, low-frequency activity during working memory tasks appears as both theta and delta activity. Additionally, we have marked the borders between frequency ranges with dotted lines to facilitate clearer visual differentiation between these bands. We believe these additions help clarify the results and address the reviewer’s concerns.

      The reviewer noted that “aperiodic activity seems specifically ~1–2 Hz.”

      In our data baseline-corrected low-frequency post-stimulus increase in EEG activity spans from approximately 3 to 7 Hz, with no prominent peak observed in the canonical theta band (4–7 Hz). While we did not analyze frequencies below 3 Hz, we agree with the reviewer that some of this activity could potentially fall within the delta range.

      Nonetheless, we would like to emphasize that similar patterns of activity have often been interpreted as theta in the literature,  even  in  the  absence  of a distinct spectral  peak (see: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neulet.2012.03.076;    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.brainres.2006.12.076; https://doi.org/10.1111/psyp.12500; https://doi.org/10.1038/s42003-023-05448-z — particularly, see the interpretation of State 1 as a “theta prefrontal state”).

      To accommodate both interpretations, we have opted to use the more neutral term “low-frequency activity” where appropriate. However, we also clarify that such activity is frequently referred to as “theta” in prior studies, even in the absence of a clear oscillatory peak.

      “Figure 4 [now Figure 6]: there is no representation of periodic theta.”

      Yes, this is one of the main findings of our study - periodic theta is absent in the vast majority of participants. A similar finding was found in a recent preprint on a working memory task (https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.12.16.628786), which further supports our results.

      “Figure 5 [now Figure 7]: there is some theta here, but it isn't clear that this is different from baseline corrected status-quo activity.”

      This figure shows comparisons of periodic activity between conditions. Although there are differences between conditions in the theta band, this does not indicate the presence of theta oscillations. Instead, the differences between the conditions in the theta band are most likely due to alpha components extending into the theta band (see Figure S6). This is further supported by the large overlap of significant channels between theta and alpha in Figure 7.

      “Figure 8: On the item-recognition task, there appears to be a short-lived burst in the high delta / low theta band, for about 500 ms. This is a short phenomenon, and there is no evidence that specparam techniques can resolve such time-limited activity.”

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. As we noted in our preliminary response, specparam, in the form we used, does not incorporate temporal information; it can be applied to any power spectral density (PSD), regardless of how the PSD is derived. Therefore, the ability of specparam to resolve temporal activity depends on the time-frequency decomposition method used. In particular, the performance of specparam is limited by the underlying time-frequency decomposition method and the data available for it. In fact, Wilson et al. (2022, https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.77348), who have developed an approach for timeresolved estimation of aperiodic parameters, actually compare two approaches that differ only in their underlying time-frequency estimation method, while the specparam algorithm is the same in both cases. For the time-frequency decomposition we used superlets (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-020-20539-9), which have been shown to resolve short bursts of activity more effectively than other methods. To our knowledge, superlets provide the highest resolution in both time and frequency compared to wavelets or STFT.

      To improve the stability of the estimates, we performed spectral parameterisation on trial-averaged power rather than on individual trials (unlike the approach in Wilson et al., 2022). In contrast, Gyurkovics et al. (2022) who also investigated task-related changes in aperiodic activity, estimated power spectra at the single-trial level, but stabilised their estimates by averaging over 1-second time windows; however, this approach reduced their temporal resolution. We have now clarified this point in the manuscript.

      “The authors note in the introduction that ‘We hypothesised that the aperiodic slope would be modulated by the processing demands of the n-back task, and that this modulation would vary according to differences in load and stimulus type.’. This type of parametric variation would be a compelling test of the hypothesis, but these analyses only included alpha and beta power (Main text & Figure 4)”

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment, but would like to clarify that the comparison between conditions was performed separately for both periodic power and aperiodic parameters. The periodic power analyses included all frequencies from 3 to 50 Hz (or 35 Hz in the case of the second dataset). All factors were included in the linear model (see LMM formula in equation 7 - subsection Methods / Comparisons between experimental conditions), but the figures only include fixed effects that were statistically significant. For example, Figure 7 shows the periodic activity and Figure 9 shows the exponent, with further details provided in other supplementary figures.

      “Figure 5 does show some plots with some theta activity, but it is unclear how this representation of periodic activity has anything to do with the major hypothesis that aperiodic slope accounts for taskevoked theta.” /…/ In particular, specparam is a multi-step model fitting procedure and it isn't impressively reliable even in ideal conditions (PMID: 38100367, 36094163, 39017780). To achieve the aim stated in the title, abstract, and discussion, the authors would have to first demonstrate the robustness of this technique applied to these data.

      We acknowledge these concerns and have taken several steps to clarify the relationship between the aperiodic slope and low-frequency activity, and to assess the robustness of the specparam (FOOOF) approach in our data.

      First, we directly compared baseline-corrected activity with periodic and aperiodic components in all three data sets. These analyses showed that low-frequency increases in baseline-corrected signals consistently tracked aperiodic parameters - in particular the aperiodic exponent - rather than periodic theta activity (see Figs 4, S3, S20, S33). Periodic components, on the other hand, were primarily associated with baseline corrected activity in the alpha and beta bands. The aperiodic exponent also showed negative correlations with high beta/gamma baseline-corrected activity, which is exactly what would be expected in the case of a shift in the aperiodic slope (rather than delta/theta oscillations). See also examples at https://doi.org/10.1038/s41593-020-00744-x (Figures 1c-iv) or https://doi.org/10.1111/ejn.15361 (Figures 3c,d).

      Next, because reviewer #1 was concerned that FOOOF might be insensitive to peaks at the edges of the spectrum, we ran a simulation that confirmed this concern. We then applied an alternative phase-based measure of oscillatory activity: the phase-autocorrelation function (pACF; Myrov et al., 2024). This method does not rely on spectral fitting and is sensitive to phase rather than amplitude. Across all datasets, pACF results were in close agreement with periodic estimates from FOOOF and were not correlated with aperiodic parameter estimates (Figs 5, S4, S5, S21, S22, S34, S35).

      Taken together, these complementary analyses suggest that the apparent low-frequency (delta, theta) activity observed in the baseline-corrected data is better explained by changes in the aperiodic slope than by true low-frequency oscillations. While we acknowledge the limitations of any single method, the convergence between the techniques increases our confidence in this interpretation.

      “How did the authors derive time-varying changes in aperiodic slope and exponent in Figure 6 [now Figure 8]?”

      We thank the reviewer for this question. As explained in the Methods section, we first performed a time-frequency decomposition, averaged across trials, and then applied a spectral decomposition to each time point.

      “While these methodological details may seem trivial and surmountable, even if successfully addressed the findings would have to be very strong in order to support the rather profound conclusions that the authors made from these analyses, which I consider unsupported at this time:

      (a) ‘In particular, the similarities observed in the modulation of theta-like activity attributed to aperiodic shifts provide a crucial validation of our conclusions regarding the nature of theta activity and the aperiodic component.’

      (b) ‘where traditional baseline subtraction can obscure significant neural dynamics by misrepresenting aperiodic activity as theta band oscillatory activity’

      (d) ‘our findings suggest that theta dynamics, as measured with scalp EEG, are predominantly a result of aperiodic shifts.’

      (e)  ‘a considerable proportion of the theta activity commonly observed in scalp EEG may actually be due to shifts in the aperiodic slope’.

      (f) ‘It is therefore essential to independently verify whether the observed theta activity is genuinely oscillatory or primarily aperiodic’

      [this would be great, but first we need to know that specparam is capable of reliably doing this].”

      We believe that our claims are now supported by the aforementioned analyses, namely associations between baseline-corrected time-frequency activity and FOOOF parameters and associations between FOOOF parameters and PACF.

      The reviewer found it unclear what low-frequency phase has to do with 1/f spectral changes: ‘Finally, our findings challenge the established methodologies and interpretations of EEG-measured crossfrequency coupling, particularly phase-amplitude coupling’

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. To address this concern, we have added further clarification in the Discussion section. Our results are particularly relevant for phase-amplitude coupling (PAC) based on theta, such as theta-gamma coupling. PAC relies on the assumption that there are distinct oscillations at both frequencies. However, if no clear oscillations are present at these frequencies— specifically, if theta oscillations are absent—then the computation of PAC becomes problematic.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Weaknesses to be addressed: 

      (1) More detail is required to understand the effects of genetic and drug manipulations on heart rate as these are important experiments. At the very least, a discussion on the limitations of these manipulations is needed. 

      - For example, how does one separate the pulsatile versus nutritive effects of blood flow/heartrate reduction? 

      - The conclusion that arterial SMC differentiation is driven by pulsatile blood flow needs to be toned down. Indeed, this conclusion is mainly supported by in vitro cell co-cultures exposed to laminar versus pulsatile flow. In vivo, reducing Tnnt2a expression affects cardiac contractility and blood flow does not selectively affect pulsatility. To make this conclusion, the authors would need an experimental means to selectively dampen the pulsatility of blood flow.

      We understand this concern and we toned down the statements related to the pulsatile flow of our conclusion by using 'flow' instead of 'pulsatile flow' in all text except for the in vitro co-cultures part. We also added a paragraph to discuss the limited capability of qualitatively reduce blood flow in vivo, and acknowledge that the effects of nutrients and flow reduction could not be uncoupled in live zebrafish embryos. We proposed that in the future, in vitro 3D vascular culture models may be combined with microfluidics to precisely calibrate nutrient composition in culture media, flow velocity and pulse; these methods would help address these questions more thoroughly. See page 11-12 line 312-322.

      (2) Since mural cells are sensitive to transmural pressure, could the authors elaborate on the potential role of raised intravascular pressure in SMC differentiation? This would better parallel rodents and humans. 

      We thank you for this suggestion. We added a paragraph to discuss the potential role of raised intravascular pressure in VSMC differentiation in the discussion section (see page 11 line 296-311).

      (3) The authors use nifedipine to reduce blood flow. Nifedipine is a specific and potent inhibitor of voltage-dependent calcium channels (VDCC) which are expressed in SMCs. Prior studies (PMID: 35588738) showed that VDCC blockers increased rather than inhibited SMC differentiation. Nifedipine is also likely to act upon VSMC calcium handling in the circle of Willis, which may in turn affect cell maturation. Could the authors comment on this seeming discrepancy?

      It is possible that off-target or indirect effects of Nifedipine decrease smooth muscle cell proliferation, or that altered cardiac contractility fundamentally alters aspects of vascular development other than blood flow. 

      - Additionally, it would be helpful to report the quantitative heart rate reduction achieved with Nifedipine. This would clear up concerns that the heart rate reduction is too large for normal vascular development to occur, and thus decrease proliferation rate independent of changes in blood flow pulsatility. 

      We concur with these comments, which is why our experimentation with Nifedipine is reinforced by employing an alternative, non-pharmacological strategy to inhibit blood flow: the use of morpholino against tnnt2a gene. The results with either Nifedipine or tnnt2a support the lack of VSMCs maturation. In addition, we provided the quantitative heart rate reduction achieved with Nifedipine shown in new Figure S2A-S2C, suggesting that the drug is not completely halting the heart rate but decreasing it. Nevertheless, we report that Zebrafish embryos can survive and develop a normal blood vascular system without any heartbeat. Hence, we exclude that the effect on VSMCs maturation is linked non-specifical effects caused by the loss of heartbeat. Nevertheless, we now acknowledged in our discussion the limitation of nifedipine, as it may affect VSMC through VDCCs (page 12, line 323-334).

      We also added a paragraph in the discussion section to compare nifedipine, an L-type VDCC blocker, and ML218, a T-type VDCC selective inhibitor from the previous study (Ando et al., 2022). We noted that in this previous study, the increase in VSMC differentiation only occur on anterior metencephalic central arteries (AMCtAs) that are more than 40 mm away from the BCA; these AMCtAs are much smaller than CoW arteries and have different geometry hence possible different kinetics of VSMC maturation (Ando et al., 2022) as our manuscript discovery would suggest.

      (4) The authors should provide more information on how blood flow velocity and wall shear stress are calculated from the Circle of Willis vascular structure. It is presumed that these values are dependent upon the 3-D morphology of the vessel network, as labeled by intravenous dextran dye, but this is not clear. (a second reviewer similarly comments: I was unclear how flow velocity values were obtained in Fig. 3E. Are they based on computational simulation, or are they experimentally calculated following the dextran injection?) Small local differences in vessel diameter and shape will influence blood flow velocity, but these morphological changes are not clearly articulated. Further, it is unclear how flow input levels to the CaDI and basilar arteries are decided across time points. For instance, is it possible to measure the blood flow speed empirically with line-scanning or high-speed tracking of labeled blood cells or particles? This would provide validation of the modeling results. 

      The computational fluid dynamic simulation was performed according to previous study from our lab (Barak et al., 2021). Blood flow velocity and wall shear stress are dependent upon the 3D morphology of the vessel network labeled by intravascular dextran. Details on how the computational fluid dynamic simulation was performed are added in method section page 17 line 433-449.

      Moreover, to address this reviewer concern we have now provided new experimental measurement of blood flow using the red blood cell (RBC) velocity via axial line scanning microscopy in Tg(kdrl:gfp;gata1:DsRed)zn1/sd2 zebrafish embryos at 54 hpf, 3 dpf, and 4 dpf. By using the experimental RBC velocity, we re-simulated the computational fluid dynamic. The new findings align with our conclusion and are further elaborated upon in response to this reviewer comment listed as point 6. Details on how RBC velocity calculated is added in method section page 16 line 414-431.

      (5) Does the cardiac injection of dextran itself affect the diameter of the arteries, given the invasiveness of the procedure? This could be examined in fish with a transgenic endothelial label with and without dextran. 

      Here, we performed an experiment on wildtype zebrafish at 5 days post-fertilization (dpf) with and without Dextran injection, examining the effects of Dextran injection on vessel diameters. As shown in the representative image below, the XZ panel clearly illustrates a Dextran-filled PCS vessel with no alteration in vessel size. Dextran microangiography, a technique employed to obtain vessel geometry with fluorescent microsphere, has been well established in zebrafish (Kamei et al., 2010). Our findings, demonstrating that Dextran does not affect vessel size, are consistent with previous studies utilizing Dextran microangiography.

      Author response image 1.

      (6) The data from the microangiography experiment in Figure 3 does not fully support the stated results. The authors report that the CaDI had the highest blood flow speed starting from 54 hpf, but it does not appear to be higher than the other arteries at this time point. Additionally, there is not sufficient evidence that wall shear stress coincides with smooth muscle cell differentiation in the CaDI. Wall shear stress appears to be similar between 54 hpf and 3 dpf in the CaDI, only increasing between 3 dpf and 4 dpf, while differentiation is shown to begin at 3 dpf. The authors need to address this and/or soften conclusions. 

      First, In response to this specific reviewer concern, we measured red blood cell (RBC) velocity by used axial line scanning microscopy to analyze Tg(kdrl:gfp;gata1:DsRed)zn1/sd2 zebrafish embryos (the detailed method was added in Method section in the manuscript). We replaced the computational simulated blood flow velocity by RBC velocity in new Figure 3E-3G, and re-run the computational simulated wall shear stress (WSS) using the RBC velocity in new Figure 3I-3K. We compared RBC velocity and WSS among different vessels at each time point. We confirmed that CaDI has the highest RBC velocity starting from 54 hpf to 4 dpf (new Figure 3A-3C, and 3E-3G) and found an overall increase in average WSS from 54 hpf to 4 dpf (new Figure 3A-3C, and 3H). Further, WSS in CaDI was significantly higher than BCA and PCS at 54 hpf, 3 dpf, and 4 dpf (new Figure 3A-3C, 3I-3K). Altogether, the CFD simulation suggests that CoW arteries experience different hemodynamic WSS that is associated with spatiotemporal pattern of VSMC differentiation on CoW arteries.”.  (Page 6, line 153-162)

      Second, to identify the correlation of WSS and VSMC differentiation in CaDI, we performed Pearson correlation analysis. In the image provided here, we plotted a linear regression with normalized # of acta2+ cells in CaDI and WSS with developmental stages (54 hpf, 3 and 4 dpf), and performed Pearson correlation coefficient analysis by using GraphPad Prism 10.0.3. The correlation coefficient r = 0.595, suggesting that the two variables (acta2+ cells and WSS) tend to increase together with developmental stages (54 hpf, 3 and 4 dpf).

      Author response image 2.

      Third, we softened our conclusion as the RBC velocity across CoW arteries was differentially distributed while VSMC differentiation occurred in these vessels.

      (7) It is unclear if acta2 expression is conferring vascular tone, as would be expected if the cells are behaving as mature VSMCs. Does arterial diameter decrease with an increase in acta2 expression? Are acta2-positive mural cells associated with more dynamic changes in arteriole diameter under basal or stimulated conditions? 

      Thanks for this interesting question. VSMC maturation and its vasoactivity could be further investigated in the future. Our study focused on early stage of VSMC differentiation, in which pdgfrb+ progenitors started to express VSMC marker acta2. We discussed the onset of transgelin expression and loss of abcc9 expression as markers of VSMC maturation. In addition, a previous study found that VSMC covered vessels in zebrafish brain dilate as early as 4 dpf and constrict at 6 dpf (Bahrami & Childs, 2020). Future study may focus on the association between expression of different VSMC markers and VSMC functional maturation. (page 10, line 272-279)

      (8) The authors argue that CoW vessels transition from venous to arterial identity (Fig. 1). However, kdrl is not an ideal arterial marker for this experiment as it is expressed in both arteries and veins. While it is true that many arterial beds have stronger kdrl expression than the veins, its expression in both arteries and veins changes with developmental stage, and its expression level may vary depending on the type of vessel. Therefore, showing that kdrl increases from 32 hpf - 4 dpf in CoW vessels is not convincing because its expression may increase in both venous or arterial vasculature as the vessels mature. In addition, flt4 expression is not exclusively venous; for example, it has noticeable expression in the dorsal aorta at 24-32 hpf stages. It would be helpful to confirm this transition by analyzing additional arterial and venous markers. 

      We acknowledge this and we added a paragraph to discuss the limitation. We combined loss of flt4 and increase in kdrl to establish the temporal sequence of circle of Willis morphogenesis, arterial specification, and VSMC differentiation. We acknowledge that additional arterial and venous markers need to be analyzed for a more thorough characterization of arterial specification in vertebrate brain vascular development. See page 12 line 335-341.

      (9) The authors show that acta2+ VSMCs are absent in tnnt2a MO embryos, concluding that blood flow is required for their differentiation from pericytes. However, there is no data showing that pericytes are still present in tnnt2a MO embryos. Although this has been previously shown by Ando et al 2016, it would be beneficial to confirm in the current study as this is a critical piece of evidence needed for this conclusion. 

      To determine if blood flow is dispensable for pdgfrb+ progenitor recruitment, we performed tnnt2a MO (0.35 ng/embryo) injection in Tg(pdgrb:egfp, kdrl:ras-mcherry) ncv22/s896. Loss of blood flow did not affect pdgfrb+ progenitor emergence around the CoW (new Figure S2G-S2H) at 3 days post fertilization (dpf). This is consistent with previous observation in Ando et al 2016 Figure S2C (Ando et al., 2016).

      (10) The authors show that klf2a MO injected embryos have a reduced number of VSMCs at 3 dpf but a normal number at 4 dpf (Fig. 6), concluding that klf2a is only important to initiate CaDI muscularization. If this is true, it would raise important questions about how VSMCs differentiate at a later stage in the absence of klf2a. For instance, is blood flow not required to differentiate at a later stage, or is there another factor that compensates in the absence of klf2a? The alternative explanation/ caveat is that klf2a MO loses efficacy with development, leading to the recovery of VSMCs at this stage. Therefore, it would be important to confirm this result using a genetic klf2a mutant. 

      Thank you for pointing this out.  We note that based on the klf2a reporter line, klf2a activity in CoW arterial endothelial cells is highly correlated with the number of acta2+ VSMCs in CaDI, BCA and PCS at 3 dpf (r = 0.974, new Figure S5J). Interestingly however, klf2a activity remained stable from 3 dpf to 4 dpf, well beyond initiation of VSMC differentiation. Thus, we speculate sustained klf2a expression may support further maturation of VSMCs, as acta2+ VSMCs showed distinct morphology at 4 dpf compared with 3 dpf. (Page 10, line 268-272). As for the observation that klf2a morphants have normal number of VSMCs at 4 dpf, we think that in addition to the temporary effect of morpholino, a proximal explanation is compensation by paralogous klf2b in zebrafish. We acknowledge that further characterization of CoW VSMC development in klf2a and klf2b double genetic mutants (Rasouli et al., 2018; Steed et al., 2016) may help determine whether klf2b compensates klf2a in CoW VSMC differentiation beyond 4 dpf. See page 10-11 line 292-295.

      (11) A large part of the discussion focuses on Notch and Wnt signaling, as downstream Klf2 effectors. While these are reasonable hypotheses to propose, there is no data on the involvement of these pathways in the current study. It seems excessive to speculate on detailed mechanisms of how Klf2 activates Notch and Wnt signaling in the absence of data showing that these pathways are affected in CoW vessels. Therefore, the discussion could be shortened here unless additional data can be obtained to demonstrate the involvement of these pathways in VSMCs in CoW.

      We concur and have condensed the discussion on Notch and Wnt signaling as downstream klf2 effectors.

      Minor comments: 

      (1) Line 138 "CaDI is the only vessels in the CoW receiving pulsatile arterial blood low ... ". Adding a reference to support this statement would be useful. 

      We agree and revised this sentence into ‘CaDI receive proximal arterial feed through lateral dorsal aorta from cardiac outflow tract (Isogai et al., 2001)’. It was also based on our general observation of zebrafish vascular anatomy and blood flow under a confocal microscope.

      (2) The image insets in Figs. 1A, 2A, 4E-L, 5A, 6A are quite small. Please make them larger to help the reader interpret the findings. 

      We agree. We maximized the image size to help the reader interpret the finding, and to visualize confocal images and schematics side-by-side.

      (3) The schematics in Figs. 1-2, and 4-6 are helpful, but the different cell types are difficult to see because they are small and their colors/shapes are not very distinct. 

      We agree. We increased the size and color contrast to provide better visualization of the schematics in new schematic Figures. 1-2 and 4-6.

      (4) It is stated that there are no diameter differences between different arteries, but statistics are not reported. 

      The statistics in Figure 3D were performed by ordinary two-way ANOVA followed by Tukey’s multiple comparisons test, with a single pooled variance. Here we added pairwise comparisons among vessels in the CoW. Hence when non indicated the difference are non-significant.

      (5) Figure 3F would be better visualized on a log scale, as it is difficult to see the differences between each post-fertilization timepoint. 

      We agree. In the new Figure 3H, the average wall shear stress (WSS) in CoW arteries is presented on log scale in y axis to see the differences between each post-fertilization timepoint.

      (6) Please provide more background and validation on the pericyte cell line, and their use for the questions in this study. 

      Thank you for the question, TgBAC(pdgfrb:egfp)ncv22 was generated and described by Ando et al 2016 to clarify mural cell coverage of vascular endothelium in zebrafish (Ando et al., 2016). We added a describe in the method section to provide background and validation on this pericyte line (see page 13 line 368-372).

      (7) Flow velocity and WSS changes are shown in each vessel in Figs. 3E,G. However, the comparison should be made between different types of vessels to see if there is a statistical difference and PCS, for example, which would explain differences in VSMC coverage. 

      We agreed. We compared the difference among arteries in the CoW at each developmental timepoint and performed ordinary one-way ANOVA with Tukey’s multiple comparisons test. Figure. 3E is replaced by new Figure. 3E-G and Figure. 3G is replaced by new Figure. 3I-K.

      (8) Similarly, between CaDI, the number of klf2a cells in Fig. 5B should be compared between different vessels, not between different stages of the same vessel. 

      We agree. In new Figure 5B-E, the number of klf2a+ cells per 100 μm vessel length are compared among different vessels at each developmental stage and analyzed by ordinary one-way ANOVA with Tukey’s multiple comparisons test.

      (9) When quantifying klf2+ cells in Fig. 5, it would be helpful to quantify klf2 expression level between cells in different vessels. This could be done by quantifying GFP expression in existing images. The difference in expression level may explain the variation between CaDI and PCS more accurately than just the difference in cell number. 

      The GFP expression reflect the stability of GFP protein expression and labels discrete nuclei with active klf2a expression. Hence the quantification of GFP level might not give an accurate readout of klf2a expression per se but rather of its activity. For this reason we don’t think that this experiment will add accurate measurement of klf2a expression.

      (10) Do data points in Figure 4D correspond to different cells in the same chamber experiment? If so, they cannot be treated as independent replicates. Each data point should correspond to an independent replicate experiment. 

      We agree. Now in the figure legend, we report the number of cells analyzed.

      (11) Graph placement is confusing in Figs. 4I, M. An adjacent Fig. 4G shows Nifedipine treated embryos, while the graph next to (Fig. 4I) shows acta+ cell number from tnnt2a 4 dpf experiment. Similarly, the bottom Fig. 4K tnn2a 4 dpf MO experiment has an adjacent graph Fig. 4M, which shows nifedipine treatment quantification, which makes it very confusing. 

      We agreed. We rearranged Figure 4E (representative images of control embryos at 3 dpf and 4 dpf), Figure 4F (tnnt2a MO embryos at 3 dpf and 4 dpf), Figure 4G (nifedipine treated embryos at 3 dpf and 4 dpf).

      Reference:

      Ando, K., Fukuhara, S., Izumi, N., Nakajima, H., Fukui, H., Kelsh, R. N., & Mochizuki, N. (2016). Clarification of mural cell coverage of vascular endothelial cells by live imaging of zebrafish. Development, 143(8), 1328-1339. https://doi.org/10.1242/dev.132654

      Ando, K., Tong, L., Peng, D., Vazquez-Liebanas, E., Chiyoda, H., He, L., Liu, J., Kawakami, K., Mochizuki, N., Fukuhara, S., Grutzendler, J., & Betsholtz, C. (2022). KCNJ8/ABCC9-containing K-ATP channel modulates brain vascular smooth muscle development and neurovascular coupling. Dev Cell, 57(11), 1383-1399 e1387. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.devcel.2022.04.019

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the reviewers and the editors for their careful reading of our manuscript and for the detailed and constructive feedback on our work. Please find attached the revised version of the manuscript. We performed an extensive revision of the manuscript to address the issues raised by the referees. We provide new analyses (regarding the response consistency and the neural complexity), added supplementary figures and edits to figures and texts. Based on the reviewers’ comments, we introduced several major changes to the manuscript.

      Most notably, we

      • added a limitation statement to emphasize the speculative nature of our interpretation of the timing of word processing/associative binding

      • emphasized the limitations of the control condition

      • added analyses on the interaction between memory retrieval after 12h versus 36h

      • clarified our definition of episodic memory

      • added detailed analyses of the “Feeling of having heard” responses and the confidence ratings

      We hope that the revised manuscript addresses the reviewers' comments to their satisfaction. We believe that the revised manuscript has been significantly improved owing to the feedback provided. Below you can find a point-by-point response to each reviewer comment in blue. We are looking forward that the revision will be published in the Journal eLife.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors show that concurrently presenting foreign words and their translations during sleep leads to the ability to semantically categorize the foreign words above chance. Specifically, this procedure was successful when stimuli were delivered during slow oscillation troughs as opposed to peaks, which has been the focus of many recent investigations into the learning & memory functions of sleep. Finally, further analyses showed that larger and more prototypical slow oscillation troughs led to better categorization performance, which offers hints to others on how to improve or predict the efficacy of this intervention. The strength here is the novel behavioral finding and supporting physiological analyses, whereas the biggest weakness is the interpretation of the peak vs. trough effect.

      R1.1. Major importance:

      I believe the authors could attempt to address this question: What do the authors believe is the largest implication of this studies? How far can this technique be pushed, and how can it practically augment real-world learning?

      We revised the discussion to put more emphasis on possible practical applications of this study (lines 645-656).

      In our opinion, the strength of this paper is its contribution to the basic understanding of information processing during deep sleep, rather than its insights on how to augment realworld learning. Given the currently limited data on learning during sleep, we believe it would be premature to make strong claims about potential practical applications of sleep-learning. In addition, as pointed out in the discussion section, we do not know what adverse effects sleep-learning has on other sleep-related mechanisms such as memory consolidation.

      R1.2. Lines 155-7: How do the authors argue that the words fit well within the half-waves when the sounds lasted 540 ms and didn't necessarily start right at the beginning of each half-wave? This is a major point that should be discussed, as part of the down-state sound continues into the up-state. Looking at Figure 3A, it is clear that stimulus presented in the slow oscillation trough ends at a time that is solidly into the upstate, and would not neurolinguists argue that a lot of sound processing occurs after the end of the sound? It's not a problem for their findings, which is about when is the best time to start such a stimulus, but it's a problem for the interpretation. Additionally, the authors could include some discussion on whether possibly presenting shorter sounds would help to resolve the ambiguities here.

      The word pairs’ presentations lasted on average ~540 ms. Importantly, the word pairs’ onset was timed to occur 100 ms before the maximal amplitude of the targeted peaks/troughs.

      Therefore, most of a word’s sound pattern appeared during the negative going half-wave (about 350ms of 540ms). Importantly, Brodbeck and colleagues (2022) have shown that phonemes are continuously analyzed and interpreted with delays of about 50-200 ms, peaking at 100ms delay. These results suggest that word processing started just following the negative maximum of a trough and finished during the next peak. Our interpretation (e.g. line 520+) suggests that low-level auditory processing reaches the auditory cortex before the positive going half-wave. During the positive going half-wave the higher-level semantic networks appear the extract the presented word's meaning and associate the two simultaneously presented words. We clarified the time course regarding slow-wave phases and sound presentation in the manuscript (lines 158-164). Moreover, we added the limitation that we cannot know for sure when and in which slow-wave phase words were processed (lines 645-656). Future studies might want to look at shorter lasting stimuli to narrow down the timing of the word processing steps in relation to the sleep slow waves.

      R1.3. Medium importance:

      Throughout the paper, another concern relates to the term 'closed-loop'. It appears this term has been largely misused in the literature, and I believe the more appropriate term here is 'real-time' (Bergmann, 2018, Frontiers in Psychology; Antony et al., 2022, Journal of Sleep Research). For instance, if there were some sort of algorithm that assessed whether each individual word was successfully processed by the brain during sleep and then the delivery of words was subsequently changed, that could be more accurately labelled as 'closed-loop'.

      We acknowledge that the meaning of “closed-loop” in its narrowest sense is not fulfilled here. We believe that “slow oscillation phase-targeted, brain-state-dependent stimulation” is the most appropriate term to describe the applied procedure (BSDBS, Bergmann, 2018). We changed the wording in the manuscript to brain-state-dependent stimulation algorithm. Nevertheless, we would like to point out that the algorithm we developed and used (TOPOSO) is very similar to the algorithms often termed closed-loop algorithm in memory and sleep (e.g. Esfahani et al., 2023; Garcia-Molina et al., 2018; Ngo et al., 2013, for a comparison of TOPOSO to these techniques see Wunderlin et al., 2022 and for more information about TOPOSO see Ruch et al., 2022).

      R1.4. Figure 5 and corresponding analyses: Note that the two conditions end up with different sounds with likely different auditory complexities. That is, one word vs. two words simultaneously likely differ on some low-level acoustic characteristics, which could explain the physiological differences. Either the authors should address this via auditory analyses or it should be added as a limitation.

      This is correct, the two conditions differ on auditory complexities. Accordingly, we added this issue as another limitation of the study (line 651-653). We had decided for a single word control condition to ensure that no associative learning (between pseudowords) could take place in the control condition because this was the critical learning process in the experimental condition. We would like to point out that we observed significant differences in brain responses to the presentation of word-pairs (experimental condition) vs single pseudowords (control condition) in the Trough condition, but not the Peak condition. If indeed low-level acoustic characteristics explained the EEG differences occurring between the two conditions then one would expect these differences occurring in both the trough and the peak condition because earlier studies showed that low-level acoustic processing proceeds in both phases of slow waves (Andrillon et al., 2016; Batterink et al., 2016; Daltrozzo et al., 2012).

      R1.5. Line 562-7 (and elsewhere in the paper): "episodic" learning is referenced here and many times throughout the paper. But episodic learning is not what was enhanced here. Please be mindful of this wording, as it can be confusing otherwise.

      The reported unconscious learning of novel verbal associations during sleep may not match textbook definitions of episodic memory. However, the traditional definitions of episodic memory have long been criticised (e.g., Dew & Cabeza, 2011; Hannula et al., 2023; Henke, 2010; Reder et al., 2009; Shohamy & Turk-Browne, 2013).

      We stand by our claim that sleep-learning was of episodic nature. Here we use a computational definition of episodic memory (Cohen & Eichenbaum, 1993; Henke, 2010; O’Reilly et al., 2014; O’Reilly & Rudy, 2000) and not the traditional definition of episodic memory that ties episodic memory to wakefulness and conscious awareness (Gabrieli, 1998; Moscovitch, 2008; Schacter, 1998; Squire & Dede, 2015; Tulving, 2002). We revised the manuscript to clarify that and how our definition differs from traditional definitions. Please see reviewer comment R3.1 for a more extensive answer.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this project, Schmidig, Ruch and Henke examined whether word pairs that were presented during slow-wave sleep would leave a detectable memory trace 12 and 36 hours later. Such an effect was found, as participants showed a bias to categorize pseudowords according to a familiar word that they were paired with during slow-wave sleep. This behavior was not accompanied by any sign of conscious understanding of why the judgment was made, and so demonstrates that long-term memory can be formed even without conscious access to the presented content. Unconscious learning occurred when pairs were presented during troughs but not during peaks of slow-wave oscillations. Differences in brain responses to the two types of presentation schemes, and between word pairs that were later correctly- vs. incorrectly-judged, suggest a potential mechanism for how such deep-sleep learning can occur.

      The results are very interesting, and they are based on solid methods and analyses. Results largely support the authors' conclusions, but I felt that there were a few points in which conclusions were not entirely convincing:

      R2.1. As a control for the critical stimuli in this study, authors used a single pseudoword simultaneously played to both ears. This control condition (CC) differs from the experimental condition (EC) in a few dimensions, among them: amount of information provided, binaural coherence and word familiarity. These differences make it hard to conclude that the higher theta and spindle power observed for EC over CC trials indicate associative binding, as claimed in the paper. Alternative explanations can be made, for instance, that they reflect word recognition, as only EC contains familiar words.

      We agree. In the revised version of the manuscript, we emphasise this as a limitation of our study (line 653-656). Moreover, we understand that the differences between stimuli of the control and the experimental condition must not rely only on the associative binding of two words. We cautioned our interpretation of the findings.

      Interestingly, EC vs CC exhibits differences following trough- but not peak targeting (see R1.4). If indeed all the EC vs CC differences were unrelated to associative binding, we would expect the same EC vs CC differences when peaks were targeted. Hence, the selective EC vs CC differences in the trough condition suggest that the brain is more responsive to sound, information, word familiarity and word semantics during troughs, where we found successful learning, compared to peaks, where no learning occurred. Troughtargeted word pairs (EC) versus foreign words (CC) enhanced the theta power 336 at 500 ms following word onset and this theta enhancement correlated significantly with interindividual retrieval performance indicating that theta probably promoted associative learning during sleep. This correlation was insignificant for spindle power.

      R2.2. The entire set of EC pairs were tested both following 12 hours and following 36 hours. Exposure to the pairs during test #1 can be expected to have an effect over memory one day later, during test #2, and so differences between the tests could be at least partially driven by the additional activation and rehearsal of the material during test #1. Therefore, it is hard to draw conclusions regarding automatic memory reorganization between 12 and 36 hours after unconscious learning. Specifically, a claim is made regarding a third wave of plasticity, but we cannot be certain that the improvement found in the 36 hour test would have happened without test #1.

      We understand that the retrieval test at 12h may have had an impact on performance on the retrieval test at 36h. Practicing retrieval of newly formed memories is known to facilitate future retrieval of the same memories (e.g. Karpicke & Roediger, 2008). Hence, practicing the retrieval of sleep-formed memories during the retrieval test at 12h may have boosted performance at 36h.

      However, recent literature suggests that retrieval practice is only beneficial when corrective feedback is provided (Belardi et al., 2021; Metcalfe, 2017). In our study, we only presented the sleep-played pseudowords at test and participants received no feedback regarding the accuracy of their responses. Thus, a proper conscious re-encoding could not take place. Nevertheless, the retrieval at 12h may have altered performance at 36h in other ways. For example, it could have tagged the reactivated sleep-formed memories for enhanced consolidation during the next night (Rabinovich Orlandi et al., 2020; Wilhelm et al., 2011).

      We included a paragraph on the potential carry-over effects from retrieval at 12h on retrieval at 36h in the discussion section (line 489-496; line 657-659). Furthermore, we removed the arguments about the “third wave of plasticity”.

      R2.3. Authors claim that perceptual and conceptual processing during sleep led to increased neural complexity in troughs. However, neural complexity was not found to differ between EC and CC, nor between remembered and forgotten pairs. It is therefore not clear to me why the increased complexity that was found in troughs should be attributed to perceptual and conceptual word processing, as CC contains meaningless vowels. Moreover, from the evidence presented in this work at least, I am not sure there is room to infer causation - that the increase in HFD is driven by the stimuli - as there is no control analysis looking at HFD during troughs that did not contain stimulation.

      With the analysis of the HFD we would like to provide an additional perspective to the oscillation-based analysis. We checked whether the boundary condition of Peak and Trough targeting changes the overall complexity or information content in the EEG. Our goal was to assess the change in neural complexity (relative to a pre-stimulus baseline) following the successful vs unsuccessful encoding of word pairs during sleep.

      We acknowledge that a causal interpretation about HFD is not warranted, and we revised the manuscript accordingly. It was unexpected that we could not find the same results in the contrast of EC vs CC or correct vs incorrect word pairs. We suggest that our signal-to noise ratio might have been too weak.

      One could argue that the phase targeting alone (without stimulation) induces peak/trough differences in complexity. We cannot completely rule out this concern. But we tried to use the EEG that was not influenced by the ongoing slow-wave: the EEG 2000-500ms before the stimulus onset and 500-2000ms after the stimulus onset. Therefore, we excluded the 1s of the targeted slow-wave, hoping that most of the phase inherent complexity should have faded out (see Figure 2). We could not further extend the time window of analysis due to the minimal stimulus onset interval of 2s. Of course we cannot exclude that the targeted Trough impacted the following HFD. We clarified this in the manuscript (line 384-425).

      Furthermore, we did find a difference of neural complexity between the pre-stimulus baseline and the post-stimulus complexity in the Peak condition but not in the Trough condition (we now added this contrast to the manuscript, line 416-419). Hence, the change in neural complexity is a reaction to the interaction of the specific slow-wave phase with the processing of the word pairs. Even though these results cannot provide unambiguous, causal links, we think they can figure as an important start for other studies to decipher neural complexity during slow wave sleep.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The study aims at creating novel episodic memories during slow wave sleep, that can be transferred in the awake state. To do so, participants were simultaneously presented during sleep both foreign words and their arbitrary translations in their language (one word in each ear), or as a control condition only the foreign word alone, binaurally. Stimuli were presented either at the trough or the peak of the slow oscillation using a closed-loop stimulation algorithm. To test for the creation of a flexible association during sleep, participant were then presented at wake with the foreign words alone and had (1) to decide whether they had the feeling of having heard that word before, (2) to attribute this word to one out of three possible conceptual categories (to which translations word actually belong), and (3) to rate their confidence about their decision.

      R3.1. The paper is well written, the protocol ingenious and the methods are robust. However, the results do not really add conceptually to a prior publication of this group showing the possibility to associate in slow wave sleep pairs of words denoting large or small object and non words, and then asking during ensuing wakefulness participant to categorise these non words to a "large" or "small" category. In both cases, the main finding is that this type of association can be formed during slow wave sleep if presented at the trough (versus the peak) of the slow oscillation. Crucially, whether these associations truly represent episodic memory formation during sleep, as claimed by the authors, is highly disputable as there is no control condition allowing to exclude the alternative, simpler hypothesis that mere perceptual associations between two elements (foreign word and translation) have been created and stored during sleep (which is already in itself an interesting finding). In this latter case, it would be only during the awake state when the foreign word is presented that its presentation would implicitly recall the associated translation, which in turn would "ignite" the associative/semantic association process eventually leading to the observed categorisation bias (i.e., foreign words tending to be put in the same conceptual category than their associated translation). In the absence of a dis-confirmation of this alternative and more economical hypothesis, and if we follow Ocam's razor assumption, the claim that there is episodic memory formation during sleep is speculative and unsupported, which is a serious limitation irrespective of the merits of the study. The title and interpretations should be toned down in this respect

      Our study conceptually adds to and extends the findings by Züst et al. (a) by highlighting the precise time-window or brain state during which sleep-learning is possible (e.g. slow-wave trough targeting), (b) by demonstrating the feasibility of associative learning during night sleep, and (c) by uncovering the longevity of sleep-formed memories.

      We acknowledge that the reported unconscious learning of novel verbal associations during sleep may not match textbook definitions of episodic memory. However, the traditional definitions of episodic memory have long been criticised (e.g, (Dew & Cabeza, 2011; Hannula et al., 2023; Henke, 2010; Reder et al., 2009; Shohamy & Turk-Browne, 2013). We stand by our claim that sleep-learning was of episodic nature. We use a computational definition of episodic memory (Cohen & Eichenbaum, 1993; Henke, 2010; O’Reilly et al., 2014; O’Reilly & Rudy, 2000), and not the traditional definition of episodic memory that ties episodic memory to wakefulness and conscious awareness (Gabrieli, 1998; Moscovitch, 2008; Schacter, 1998; Squire & Dede, 2015; Tulving, 2002). The core computational features of episodic memory are 1) rapid learning, 2) association formation, and 3) a compositional and flexible representation of the associations in long-term memory.

      Therefore, we revised the manuscript to emphasize how our definition differs from traditional definitions (line 64).

      For the current study, we designed a retrieval task that calls on the core computational features of episodic memory by assessing flexible retrieval of sleep-formed compositional word-word associations. Reviewer 3 suggests an alternative interpretation for the learning observed here: mere perceptual associations between foreign words and translations words are stored during sleep, and semantic associations are only inferred at retrieval testing during ensuing wakefulness. First, these processing steps would require the rapid soundsound associative encoding, long-term storage, and the flexible sound retrieval, which would still require hippocampal processing and computations in the episodic memory system. Second, this mechanism seems highly laborious and inefficient. The sound pattern of a word at 12 hours after learning triggers the reactivation of an associated sound pattern of another word. This sound pattern then elicits the activation of the translation words’ semantics leading to the selection of the correct superordinate semantic category at test.

      Overall, we believe that our pairwise-associative learning paradigm triggered a rapid conceptual-associative encoding process mediated by the hippocampus that provided for flexible representations of foreign and translation words in episodic memory. This study adds to the existing literature by examining specific boundary conditions of sleep-learning and demonstrates the longevity (at least 36 hours) of sleep-learned associations.

      Other remarks:

      R3.2. Lines 43-45 : the assumption that the sleeping brain decides whether external events can be disregarded, requires awakening or should be stored for further consideration in the waking state is dubious, and the supporting references date from a time (the 60') during which hypnopedia was investigated in badly controlled sleep conditions (leaving open the doubt about the possibility that it occurred during micro awakenings)

      We revised the manuscript to add timelier and better controlled studies that bolster the 60ties-born claim (line 40-51). Recently, it has been shown that the sleeping brain preferentially processes relevant information. For example the information conveyed by unfamiliar voices (Ameen et al., 2022), emotional content (Holeckova et al., 2006; Moyne et al., 2022), our own compared to others’ names (Blume et al., 2018).

      R3.3. 1st paragraph, lines 48-53 , the authors should be more specific about what kind of new associations and at which level they can be stored during sleep according to recent reports, as a wide variety of associations (mostly elementary levels) are shown in the cited references. Limitations in information processing during sleep should also be acknowledged.

      In the lines to which R3 refers, we cite an article (Ruch & Henke, 2020) in which two of the three authors of the current manuscript elaborate in detail what kind of associations can be stored during sleep. We revised these lines to more clearly present the current understanding of the potential and the limitations of sleep-learning (line 40-51). Although information processing during sleep is generally reduced (Andrillon et al., 2016), a variety of different kinds of associations can be stored, ranging from tone-odour to word-word association (Arzi et al., 2012, 2014; Koroma et al., 2022; Züst et al., 2019).

      R3.4. The authors ran their main behavioural analyses on delayed retrieval at 36h rather than 12h with the argument that retrieval performance was numerically larger at 36 than 12h but the difference was non-significant (line 181-183), and that effects were essentially similar. Looking at Figure 2, is the trough effect really significant at 12h ? In any case, the fact that it is (numerically) higher at 36 than 12h might suggest that the association created at the first 12h retrieval (considering the alternative hypothesis proposed above) has been reinforced by subsequent sleep.

      The Trough effect at 12h is not significant, as stated on line 185 (“Planned contrasts against chance level revealed that retrieval performance significantly exceeded chance at 36 hours only (P36hours = 0.036, P12hours = 0.094).”). It seems that our wording was not clear. Therefore, we refined the description of the behavioural analysis in the manuscript (lines 188-193).

      In brief, we report an omnibus ANOVA with a significant main effect of targeting type (Trough vs Peak, main effect Peak versus Trough: F(1,28) = 5.237, p = 0.030, d = 0.865). Because Trough-targeting led to significantly better memory retention than Peak-targeting, we computed a second ANOVA, solely including participants with through-targeted word-pair encoding. The memory retention in the Trough condition is above chance (MTrough = 39.11%, SD = 10.76; FIntercept (1,14) = 5.660, p = 0.032) and does not significantly differ between the 12h and 36h retrieval (FEncoding-Test Delay (1,14) = 1.308, p = 0.272). However, the retrieval performance at 36h numerically exceeds the performance at 12h and the direct comparison against chance reveals that the 36h but not the 12h retrieval was significant (P36hours = 0.036, P12hours = 0.094). Hence, we found no evidence for above chance performance at the 12h retrieval and focused on the retrieval after 36h in the EEG analysis.

      We agree with the reviewer that the subsequent sleep seems to have improved consolidation and subsequent retrieval. We assume that the reviewer suggests that participants merely formed perceptual associations during sleep and encoded episodic-like associations during testing at 12h (as pointed out in R 3.1). However, we believe that it is unlikely that the awake encoding of semantic associations during the 12h retrieval led to improved performance after 36h. We changed the discussion regarding the interaction between retrieval at 12h and 36h (line 505-512, also see R 2.2)

      R3.5> In the discussion section lines 419-427, the argument is somehow circular in claiming episodic memory mechanisms based on functional neuroanatomical elements that are not tested here, and the supporting studies conducted during sleep were in a different setting (e.g. TMR)

      Indeed, the TMR and animal studies are a different setting compared to the present study. We re-wrote this part and only focused on the findings of Züst and colleagues (2019), who examined hippocampal activity during the awake retrieval of sleep-formed memories (lines 472-482). Additionally, we would like to emphasise that our main reasoning is that the task requirements called upon the episodic memory system.

      R3.6. Supplementary Material: in the EEG data the differentiation between correct and incorrect ulterior classifications when presented at the peak of the slow oscillation is only significant in association with 36h delayed retrieval but not at 12h, how do the authors explain this lack of effect at 12 hour ?

      We assume that the reviewer refers to the TROUGH condition (word-pairs targeted at a slow-wave trough) and not as written to the peak condition. We argue that the retention performance at 12h is not significantly above chance (M12hours = 37.4%, P12hours = 0.094).

      Hence, the distinction between “correctly” and “incorrectly” categorised word pairs was not informative for the EEG analysis during sleep. For whatever reason the 12h retrieval was not significantly above chance, the less successful memory recall and thus a less balanced trial count makes recall accuracy a worse delineator for separating EEG trials then the recall performance after 36 hours.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor importance:

      Abstract: The opening framing is confusing here and in the introduction. Why frame the paper in the broadest terms about awakenings and threats from the environment when this is a paper about intersections between learning & memory and sleep? I do understand that there is an interesting point to be made about the counterintuitive behavioral findings with respect to sleep generally being perceived as a time when stimuli are blocked out, but this does not seem to me to be the broadest points or the way to start the paper. The authors should consider this but of course push back if they disagree.

      We understand the reviewer’s criticism but believe that this has more to do with personal preferences than with the scientific value or validity of our work. We believe that it is our duty as researchers to present our study in a broader context because this may help readers from various fields to understand why the work is relevant. To some readers, evidence for learning during sleep may seem trivial, to others, it may seem impossible or a weird but useless conundrum. By pointing out potential evolutionary benefits of the ability to acquire new information during sleep, we help the broad readership of eLife understand the relevance of this work.

      Lines 31-32: "Neural complexity" -> "neural measures of complexity" because it isn't clear what "neural complexity" means at this point in the abstract. Though, note my other point that I believe this analysis should be removed.

      To our understanding, “neural complexity” is a frequently used term in the field and yields more than 4000 entries on google scholar. Whereas ‘neural measures of complexity’ only finds 3 hits on google scholar [September 2023]. In order to link our study with other studies on neural complexity, we would like to keep this terminology. As an example, two recent publications using “neural complexity” are Lee et al. (2020) and Frohlich et al. (2022).

      Lines 42-43: The line of work on 'sentinel' modes would be good to cite here (e.g., Blume et al., 2017, Brain & Language).

      We added the suggested citation to the manuscript (lines 52).

      Lines 84-90: While I appreciate the authors desire to dig deep and try to piece this all together, this is far too speculative in my opinion. Please see my other points on the same topic.

      In this paragraph, we point out why both peaks and troughs are worth exploring for their contributions to sensory processing and learning during sleep. Peaks and troughs are contributing mutually to sleep-learning. Our speculations should inspire further work aimed at pinning down the benefits of peaks and troughs for sleep-learning. We clarified the purpose and speculative nature of our arguments in the revised version of the manuscript.

      Line 109: "outlasting" -> "lasting over" or "lasting >"

      We changed the wording accordingly.

      Line 111: I believe 'nonsense' is not the correct term here, and 'foreign' (again) would be preferred. Some may be offended to hear their foreign word regarded as 'nonsense'. However, please let me know if I have misunderstood.

      We would like to use the linguistic term “pseudoword” (aligned with reviewer 2’s comment) and we revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Figure 1A: "Enconding" -> "Encoding"

      Thank you for pointing this out.

      Lines 201-2: Were there interactions between confidence and correctness on the semantic categorization task? Were correct responses given with more confidence than incorrect ones? This would not necessarily be a problem for the authors' account, as there can of course be implicit influences on confidence (i.e., fluency).

      As is stated in the results section, confidence ratings did not differ significantly between correct and incorrect assignments (Trough condition: F(1,14) = 2.36, p = 0.15); Peak condition: F(1,14) = 0.48, p = 0.50).

      Line 236: "Nicknazar" -> "Niknazar"

      Thank you for pointing this out.

      Line 266: "profited" -> "benefited"

      We changed the wording accordingly.

      Lines 280-4: There seems some relevance here with Malerba et al. (2018) and her other papers to categorize slow oscillations.

      Diving into the details on how to best categorise slow oscillations is beyond the scope of this manuscript. Here, we build on work from the field of microstate analyses and use two measures to describe and quantify the targeted brain states: the topography of the electric field (i.e., the correlation of the electric field with an established template or “microstate”), and the field strength (global field power, GFP). While the topography of a quasi-stable electric field reflects activity in a specific neural network, the strength (GFP) of a field most likely mirrors the degree of activation (or inactivity) in the specific network. Here, we find that consistent targeting of a specific network state yielding a strong frontal negativity benefitted learning during sleep. For a more detailed explanation of the slow-wave phase targeting see (Ruch et al., 2022).

      Lines 343-6: Was it intentional to have 0.5 s (0.2-0.7 s) surrounding the analysis around 500 ms but only 0.4 s (0.8-1.2 s) surrounding the analysis around 1 s? Could the authors use the same size interval or justify having them be different?

      We apologise for the misleading phrasing and we clarified this in the revised manuscript. We applied the same procedure for the comparison of later correctly vs incorrectly classified pseudowords as we did for the comparison between EC and CC. Hence, we analysed the entire window from 0s to 2.5s with a cluster-based permutation approach. Contrary to the EC vs CC contrast, no cluster remained significant for the comparison of the subsequent memory effect. By mistake we reported the wrong time window. In the revised manuscript, the paragraph is corrected (lines 364-369).

      Line 356-entire HFD section: it is unclear what's gained by this analysis, as it could simply be another reflection of the state of the brain at the time of word presentation. In my opinion, the authors should remove this analysis and section, as it does not add clarity to other aspects of the paper.

      (If the authors keep the section) Line 361-2 - "Moreover, high HFD values have been associated with cognitive processing (Lau et al., 2021; Parbat & Chakraborty, 2021)." This statement is vague. Could the authors elaborate?

      Please see our answer to Reviewer 2 (2.3) for a more detailed explanation. In brief, we would like to keep the analysis with the broad time window of -2 to -0.5 and from 0.5 to 2 s.

      Lines 403-4: How was it determined that these neural networks mediated both conscious/unconscious processes? Perhaps the authors meant to make a different point, but the way it reads to me is that there is evidence that some neural networks are conscious and others are not and both forms engage in similar functions.

      We revised the manuscript to be more precise and clear: “The conscious and unconscious rapid encoding and flexible retrieval of novel relational memories was found to recruit the same or similar networks including the hippocampus(Henke et al., 2003; Schneider et al., 2021). This suggests that conscious and unconscious relational memories are processed by the same memory system.” (p. 22, top).

      Lines 433-41: Performance didn't actually significantly increase from 12 to 36 hours, so this is all too speculative in my opinion.

      We removed the speculative claim that performance may have increased from the retrieval at 12 hours to the retrieval at 36 hours.

      Line 534: "assisted by enhanced" -> "coincident with". It's unclear whether theta reflects successful processing as having occurred or whether it directly affects or assists with it.

      We have adjusted the wording to be more cautious, as suggested (line 588).

      Line 572-4: Rothschild et al. (2016) is relevant here.

      Unfortunately, we do not see the relevance of this article within the context of our work.

      Line 577 paragraph: The authors may consider adding a note on the importance of ethical considerations surrounding this form of 'inception'.

      We extended this part by adding ethical considerations to the discussion section (Stickgold et al., 2021, line 657).

      Line 1366: It would be better if the authors could eventually make their data publicly available. This is obviously not required, but I encourage the authors to consider it if they have not considered it already.

      In my opinion, the discussion is too long. I really appreciate the authors trying to figure out the set of precise times in which each level of neural processing might occur and how this intersects with their slow oscillation phase results. However, I found a lot of this too speculative, especially given that the sounds may bleed into parts of other phases of the slow oscillation. I do not believe this is a problem unique to these authors, as many investigators attempting to target certain phases in the target memory reactivation literature have faced the same problem, but I do believe the authors get ahead of the data here. In particular, there seems to be one paragraph in the discussion that is multiple pages long (p. 22-24). This paragraph I believe has too much detail and should be broken up regardless, as it is difficult for the reader to follow.

      Considering the recent literature, we believe this interpretation best explains the data. As argued earlier, we believe that a speculative interpretation of the reported phenomena can provide substantial added value because it inspires future experimental work. We have improved the manuscript by clearly distinguishing between data and interpretation. We do declare the speculative nature of some offered interpretations. We hope that these speculations, which are testable hypotheses (!), will eventually be confirmed or refuted experimentally.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I very much enjoyed the paper and think it describes important findings. I have a few suggestions for improvement, and minor comments that caught my eye during reading:

      (1) I was missing an analysis of CC ERP, and its comparison to EC ERP.

      We added this analysis to the manuscript (line 299-301). The comparison of CC ERP with EC ERP did not yield any significant cluster for either the peak (cluster-level Monte Carlo p=0.54) or the trough (cluster-level Monte Carlo p>0.37). We assume that the noise level was too high for the identification of differences between CC and EC ERP.

      (2) Regarding my public review comment #2, some light can be shed on between-test effects, I believe, using an item-based analysis - looking at correlations between items' classifications in test #1 and test #2. The assumption seems to be that items that were correct in test #1 remained correct in test #2 while other new correct classifications were added, owing to the additional consolidation happening between the two tests. But that is an empirical question that can be easily tested. If no consistency in item classification is found, on the other hand, or if only consistency in correct classification is found, that would be interesting in itself. This item-based analysis can help tease away real memory from random correct classification. For instance, the subset of items that are consistently classified correctly could be regarded as non-fluke at higher confidence and used as the focus of subsequent-memory analysis instead of the ones that were correct only in test #2.

      Thanks, we re-analysed the data accordingly. Participants were consistent at choosing a specific object category for an item at 12 hours and 36 hours (consistency rate = 47% same category, chance level is 1/3). Moreover, the consistency rate did not differ between the Trough and the Peak condition (MTrough = 47.2%, MPeak = 47.0%, P = 0.98). The better retrieval performance in the Trough compared to the Peak condition after 36 hours is due to: A) if participants were correct at 12h, they chose again the correct answer at 36h (Trough: 20% & Peak: 14%). B) Following an incorrect answer at 12h, participants switched to another object category at 36h (Trough: 72%, Peak: 67%). C) If participants switched the object category following an incorrect answer at 12h, they switched more often to the correct category at 36h in the trough versus the peak condition (Trough: in 56% & Peak: 53%). Hence, the data support the reviewer’s assumption: items that were correct after 12 hours remained correct after 36 hours, while other new correct classifications were generated at 36h owing to the additional consolidation happening between the two tests. We added this finding to the manuscript (line 191-200, Figure S6):

      Author response image 1.

      As suggested, we re-analysed the ERP with respect to the subsequent memory effect. This time we computed four conditions according to the reviewer’s argument about consistently correctly classified pseudowords, presented in the figure below: ERP of trials that were correctly classified at 36h (blue), ERP of trials that were incorrectly classified at 36h (light blue), ERP of trials that were correctly classified twice (brown) and ERP of trials that were not correctly classified twice (orange, all trials that are not in brown). Please note that the two blue lines are reported in the manuscript and include all trials. The brown and the orange line take the consistency into account and together include as well all trials.

      Author response image 2.

      By excluding even more trials from the group of correct retrieval responses, the noise level gets high. Therefore, the difference between the twice-correct and the not-twice-correct trials is not significant (cluster-level Monte Carlo p > 0.27). Because the ERP of twice-correct trials seems very similar to the ERP of the trials correctly classified at 36h at frontal electrodes, we assume that our ERP effect is not driven by a few extreme subjects. Similarly, not-twicecorrect trials (orange) have a stronger frontal trough than the trials incorrectly classified at 36h (light blue).

      (3) In a similar vein, a subject-based analysis would be highly interesting. First and foremost, readers would benefit from seeing the lines that connect individual dots across the two tests in figures 2B and 2C. It is reasonable to expect that only a subset of participants were successful learners in this experiment. Finding them and analyzing their results separately could be revealing.

      We added a Figure S1 to the supplementary material, providing the pairing between performance of the 12h and the 36h retrieval.

      It is an interesting idea to look at successful learners alone. We computed the ERP of the subsequent memory effect for those participants, who had an above change retrieval accuracy at 36h. The result shows a similar effect as reported for all participants (frontal cluster ~0-0.3s). The p-value is only 0.08 because only 9 of 15 participants exhibited an above chance retrieval performance at 36 hours.

      Author response image 3.

      ERP effect of correct (blue) vs incorrect (light blue) pseudoword category assignment of participants with a retrieval performance above chance at 36h (SD as shades):

      We prefer to not include this data in the manuscript, but are happy to provide it here.

      (4) I wondered why the authors informed subjects of the task in advance (that they will be presented associations when they slept)? I imagine this may boost learning as compared to completely naïve subjects. Whether this is the reason or not, I think an explanation of why this was done is warranted, and a statement whether authors believe the manipulation would work otherwise. Also, the reader is left wondering why subjects were informed only about test #1 and not about test #2 (and when were they told about test #2).

      Subjects were informed of all the tests upfront. We apologize for the inconsistency in the manuscript and revised the method part. The explanation of why participants were informed is twofold: a) Participants had to sleep with in-ear headphones. We wanted to explain to participants why these are necessary and why they should not remove them. b) We hoped that participants would be expecting unconsciously sounds played during sleep, would process these sounds efficiently and would remain deeply asleep (no arousals).

      (5) FoHH is a binary yes/no question, and so may not have been sensitive enough to demonstrate small differences in familiarity. For comparison, the Perceptual Awareness Scale (Ramsøy & Overgaard, 2004) that is typically used in studies of unconscious processing is of a 4-point scale, and this allows to capture more nuanced effects such as partial consciousness and larger response biases. Regardless, it would be informative to have the FoHH numbers obtained in this study, and not just their comparison between conditions. Also, was familiarity of EC and CC pseudowords compared? One may wonder whether hearing the pseudowords clearly vs. in one ear alongside a familiar word would make the word slightly more familiar.

      We apologize for having simplified this part too much in the manuscript. Indeed, the FoHH is comparable to the PAS. We used a 4-point scale, where participants rated their feeling of whether they have heard the pseudoword during previous sleep. In the revised manuscript, we report the complete results (line 203-223). The FoHH did not differ between any of the suggested contrasts. Thus, for both the peak and the trough condition, the FoHH did not differ between sleep-played vs new; correct EC trials vs new; correct vs incorrect EC trials; EC vs CC trials. To illustrate the results, a figure of the FoHH has been added to the supplement (Figure S4).

      (6) Similarly, it would be good to report the numbers of the confidence ratings in the paper as well.

      In the revised manuscript, we extended the description of the confidence rating results. We added the descriptive statistics (line 224-236) and included a corresponding figure in the supplement (Figure S5).

      Minor/aesthetic comments:

      We implemented all the following suggestions.

      (1) I suggest using "pseudoword" or "nonsense word" instead of "foreign word", because "foreign word" typically means a real word from a different language. It is quite confusing when starting to read the paper.

      After reconsidering, we think that pseudoword is the appropriate linguistic term and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      (2) Lines 1000-1001: "The required sample size of N = 30 was determined based on a previous sleep-learning study". I was missing a description of what study you are referring to.

      (3) I am not sure I understood the claim nor the rationale made in lines 414-417. Is the claim that pairs did not form one integrated engram? How do we know that? And why would having one engram not enable extracting the meaning from a visual-auditory presentation of the cue? The sentence needs some rewording and/or unpacking.

      (4) Were categories counterbalanced (i.e., did each subjects' EC contain 9 animal words, 9 tool words and 9 place words)?

      (5) Asterisks indicating significant effects are missing from Figure 4 and S2.

      (6) Fig1 legend: "Participants were played with pairs" is ungrammatical.

      (7) Line 1093: no need for a comma.

      (8) Line 1336: missing opening parenthesis

      (9) Line 430: "observe" instead of "observed".

      (10) Line 466: two dots instead of one..

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Methods: 2 separate ANOVAs are performed (lines 160-185), but would not it make more sense to combine both in one ? If kept separated then a correction for multiple comparisons might be needed (p/2 = 0.025)

      We computed an omnibus ANOVA. In a next step, we examined the effect in the significant targeting condition by computing another ANOVA. For further explanations, see reviewer comment 3.4.

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1

      As written in my public review I consider the science of this work to be high quality. I have some suggestions for the write-up though. As a general comment, I think that too much has been put into the appendices. In particular, the main text could contain more details about the model.

      We are pleased that this Reviewer feels that our work to be of “high quality”. We value the reviewer’s insightful suggestions and comments. Following this Reviewer’s suggestion we have moved certain sections to the main text.

      In what follows, we provide responses to each of the reviewer’s inquiry, and indicate the appropriate changes in the revised version.

      P2 -

      ϕ is introduce as packing fraction - on p3 it’s called cell density. Also it is not clear whether it is an area fraction or a cell number density. Please define properly and I would suggest sticking to one notion.

      ϕ is the cell packing fraction. In two dimensions (as is the case in our simulations) it is the area fraction. However, in order to stick to one general notation (independent of dimension) we use “packing fraction” to represent how densely the cells are packed. We changed it the revised manuscript to ensure uniformity.

      P3 -

      “which should and should slow down the overall dynamics” Typo?

      Corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      “One would intuitively expect that the ϕfree should decrease with increasing cell density” Please, define ϕfree

      ϕfree is defined in Eqn. 4. We ought to have defined it in the introduction.

      “When ϕ exceeds ϕS, the free area ϕfree saturates because the soft cells interpenetrate each other,” I suggest clearly distinguishing between biological cells and the agents (disks) used in the simulation. Please, also clarify What interpenetration of agents corresponds to in tissues?

      We have rewritten the sentence as, ”The simulations show that when..” Soft disks used in the simulations seem to be not an unrealistic model for biological cells. The small deformations noted in our model is not that different from the cells in the tissues. For visual reference, please see Author response image 1. In the left panel of the figure, a 2D snapshot of the experimental zebrafish tissue, displays the deformation of cells labeled as 1 and 2. Likewise, the right panel illustrates the extent to which such deformations are replicated in the simulation by allowing two cells to overlap (the white area in the right panel of Author response image 1 represents the interpenetration). In the revised manuscript, we have made the necessary change from “soft cells” to “soft disks.”

      Author response image 1.

      Snapshots of zebrafish tissue (left panel) (Ref. [14] main text) and model two dimensional tissue (right). In the right panel the white area represents the overlap and the black vertical line represents the intersection.

      “The facilitation mechanism, invoked in glassy systems [22] allows large cells to move with low mobility.” What is the facilitation mechanism?

      Facilitation, which is an intuitive idea, that refers to a mechanism by which cells in a in highly jammed environment can only move if the neighboring cells get out of the way. In our case (as shown in the text (Fig.3 (A) and Fig. 13 (A) & (B)) the smaller cells move faster almost independent of ϕ. When a small cell moves, it creates a void which could facilitate neighboring cells (including big ones) to move.

      “η (or relaxation time)” I suggest explaining the link between η and the relaxation time.

      First, in making this point on aging we only showed that the relaxation time is independent of the waiting time. In the revised manuscript we deleted η.

      Although not germane to this study, in the literature on glass transition, it is not uncommon to use relaxation time τα (as a proxy of viscosity η) to describe the dynamics. The relation between τα and η is given by

      where G∞ is the “infinite frequency” shear modulus, which holds in unjammed or in liquids. This relation suggests that τα is proportional to η, which is almost never satisfied in glass forming systems.

      P5 - “In addition, the elastic forces characterizing cell-cell interactions are soft, which implies that the cells can penetrate with rij − (Ri + Rj) < 0 when they are jammed.” Is this about the model or the biological tissue? Presumably the former, because real cells do not penetrate each other, right? What are rij, Ri and Rj?

      This is about the model. The cells are sufficiently soft that they can be deformed, which allows for modest interpenetration. Real cells exhibit similar behavior (see Fig. 1). In inset of Fig. 4 (b) rij is the center to center distance between cells with radii Ri and Rj. It is better to use the word overlap instead of penetrate, which is what we have done in the revised version.

      “we simulated a highly polydisperse system (PDs) in which the cell sizes vary by a factor of ∼ 8” Is it important to have a factor 8 - the zebra fish tissue presents a factor 5 − 6?

      This is an important question, which is difficult to answer using analytic theory. It does require simulations unfortunately. We do not know a priori the polysipersity value needed to observe saturation in η at high value of ϕ. However, we have shown that the a system with one type of cell (monodisperse) crystallizes. Furthermore, mixtures of two cell types do not show any saturation in η over the parameter range that we explored. A systematic simulation study is needed to explore a range of parameter values to determine the minimum PD, which would match the experimental findings.

      We performed 3D simulations to figure out if much less PD would yield saturation in η. Preliminary simulations in three dimensions with a lower value of PD (11.5% with a size variations by a factor of ≈ 2 ) exhibits saturation in the relaxation time. For comparison, the value of PD in the current work is ≈ 24% with a size variation by a factor of 8.

      P6 -

      “which is related to the Doolittle equation [26] for fluidity ( )” what is the Doolittle equation? Is it important here? Also: “VFT equation for cells”? Is it the same as given on p.2 - so nothing special for cells - or a different one?

      Historically, the Doolittle equation was proposed to describe the change in η in terms of free volume in the context polymer systems over 60 years ago. The physics in the polymers is very different from the soft models for cells considered here. Nevertheless, the equations has meaning in the context as well. The Doolittle (other names associated with similar equations are Ferry, Flory... ) equation is given by

      , where A and B are constants, V is the total volume and Vhc is the hardcore volume. Essentially, is the relative free volume. It can be shown that one can arrive at the VFT equation starting from the Doolittle equation.

      The VFT equation for cells is same as given in page 2, which we restate for completeness. Here, we introduce the apparent activation energy.

      “The stress-stress tensor” Why not simply stress tensor?

      We have corrected it.

      “shows qualitatively the same behavior as the estimate of viscosity (using dimensional arguments) made in experiments.” Where is this shown?

      The dependence of viscosity as a function ϕ is shown in Figure 1 (c).

      P7 -

      Fig 2A caption “dashed line” Maybe full line?

      This should be full line. It is fixed in in the revised manuscript.

      P8 -

      “a puzzling finding that is also reflected” Why is it puzzling?

      In figure 2 (C), it shows that the increase in the duration in the plateau of Fs(q,t) ceases when ϕ exceeds ≈ 0.90. This to us is puzzling (always a matter of perspective) because we expected that the duration of Fs(q,t) plateau to increase as a function of ϕ based on the VFT behavior for ϕ ≤ ϕS. As a result, we imagined that the relaxation time τα would continue to increase beyond ϕS. However, the simulations show that the relaxation time is essentially a constant for ϕ > 0.90, which implies that the soft disk system (our model for the tissue) is an unusual with behavior that has no counter part in the material world.

      “If the VFT relation continues” –“If the VFT relation continued”

      We have fixed it.

      First paragraph does not seem to be coherent

      What is RS (or Rs)?

      RS is the radius of the small cell. In the revised manuscript we have made this clear.

      P10 -

      Please, define the waiting time.

      The waiting time refers to the period between sample preparation and data collection either in experiments or in simulations. In an ergodic system, the properties should not depend on the waiting time provided provided it is large. In other words, after the system reaches thermal equilibrium, the waiting time tω should not have an impact on the properties of the system.

      “fully jammed” Please, define.

      The term “fully jammed” refers to a state in which the constituent particles in a system do not move. For example, it a hard sphere system at a packing fraction of approximately 0.84 is fully jammed, which implies there is wiggle room for a particle move without violating the excluded volume restriction. At this specific packing fraction, the hard sphere system undergoes a jamming transition, resulting in the particles becoming completely immobile. The nonconfluent tissue modeled here is not fully jammed.

      P11 -

      Fig.4 it is hard to see that the width of P(hij) increases with ϕ.

      Please see Author response image 2 with a less number of curves for a better visualization. We have replaced this figure in the revised version.

      Author response image 2.

      Probability of overlap (hij) between two cells, P(hij), for various ϕ values.

      “Thus, even if the cells are highly jammed at ϕ ≈ ϕS, free area is available because of an increase in the overlap between cells.” This conclusion seems premature at this point.

      The Referee is correct. This is shown in Fig. 5. We amended the ends of the sentence to reflect this observation.

      P12 -

      “as is the case when the extent of compression increases” extent of compression = density?

      This is correct. Extent of compression corresponds to the packing fraction or the density.

      “This effect is expected to occur with high probability at ϕS and beyond,” Why? What is special about ϕS.

      To achieve high packing fractions beyond a certain value of ϕ soft cells have, which would occur at a certain value ϕS. In the system studied here, ϕ ≈ 0.90 = ϕS. Note that ϕS could be altered by changing the system parameters.

      P15 -

      “local equilibrium” In a thermodynamic sense? There is also cell migration, so thermodynamic equilibrium does not seem to be appropriate.

      This is an important point. The observation that equilibrium concepts hold in what is manifestly a non-equilibrium system is a surprise. It is referred in a thermodynamic sense. We agree with the reviewer because of cell division (in Ref. [14] main text), cell death, thermodynamic equilibrium does not seems to be appropriate. This is exactly the point we raise in the introduction. However, considering the timescale of cell division and death it appears that there may be a local steady state, which we we call a “local equilibrium”. As a consequence phase transition ideas and Green-Kubo relations are applicable. Indeed, a surprise in the conclusion in Ref. [14] is that in the zebrafish morphogenesis equilibrium description seems adequate.

      “number of near neighbor cells that is in contact with the ith cell. The jth cell is the nearest neighbor of the ith cell, if hij > 0” A neighbour cell or the nearest neihbor?

      A neighbour cell is accurate.

      P16 -

      “In our model there is no dynamics with only systematic forces because the temperature is zero.” What is a systematic force? I do not understand the sentence.

      Systematic force between two cells is defined in Eqn. 5 in the main text. Because temperature is not a relevant variable in our model, we want to emphasize that in the absence of self propulsion, the cells would not move at all.

      Reviewer #2

      Major comments:

      A/ Role of size polydispersity

      In the text, and also in the methods (Appendix A), the authors mention that they need large polydispersity of particle sizes to explain the viscous plateau, as the dynamics of small vs large cells are ”dramatically different” (Appendix G). They simulate a system where cell sizes vary by a factor 8, mentioning this is typical in tissues, but I found this quite surprising - this would be heterogeneities in cell volume of 500, many orders of magnitude above what has been measured in tissues. As far as I’m aware, divisions are quite symmetric and synchronous in early vertebrate embryogenesis, so volume variations are expected to be very small (similarly in epithelial tissues, where jamming has been looked at extensively, I’m not aware of examples with ratio of 8 between cell diameters). One question I had is that when the authors look at ”small polydispersity”, there are 50 − 50 mixtures. Would small polydispersity with continuous distributions change this picture? Could they take their current simulations but smoothly change the ratio of polydispersity from 8 to 0 to see exactly how much they need to explain viscosity plateauing, and at which point is the transition?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important question, which was also a concern for Reviewer #1. The value of polydispersity (PD) required to observe such behavior is not known a priori even within the simple model used. We selected a PD value, with a size variation of a factor of 8, guided in part by the experiment (projection onto 2D) shown in Figure 1(B) and Figure 6(D). We also showed that the monodisperse system crystallizes, and the binary system do not show signs of saturation within the explored range of parameter space and ϕ. This suggests that a certain degree of size dispersity is necessary to obtain saturation in η.

      As discussed in Appendix B, the binary system is characterized by the variables , where RB and RS represent the radii of the big and small cells, respectively, and the packing fraction ϕ. By more fully exploring the parameter space encompassing λ and ϕ than we did, it maybe possible, as the Referee suggests, that a system with two different cell sizes would yield the experimentally observed dependence of η on ϕ.

      As part of an answer to the Reviewer #1 on a the same issue, we mentioned results of preliminary simulations in three dimensions with reduced levels of polydispersity, and discovered that at lower levels of polydispersity (variation in size by a factor of ≈ 2 and polydispersity value 11.50%), the relaxation time does saturate beyond a certain packing fraction (see Fig. 3). We have not established if η, the key quantity of interest, would exhibit a similar behavior in 3D.

      Author response image 3.

      (A) τα as a function of ϕ for 11% polydispersity with size variation by a factor of ∼ 2 in the three dimensional system. (B) Same as (A) except polydispersity value is 24% and a size variation by a factor of ∼ 8.

      B/ Role of fluctuations/self-propulsion in this system, and relationship to recent findings

      “A priori it is unclear why equilibrium concepts should hold in zebrafish morphogenesis, which one would expect is controlled by non-equilibrium processes such as self-propulsion, growth and cell division. ”

      This is raised as a key paradox, but is not very clear to me in the context raised by the authors. In particular, they use self-propulsion as a source of activity and explain the evolution of viscosity but a facilitation process involving re-arrangements/motility. But I don’t think self-propulsion has been argued to play a role in zebrafish blastoderm - Ref 14 argues that this is effectively a zerotemperature phenomenon and that cell motility/rearrangements do not show any correlation with viscosity. So this part of the model assumption was not clear to me in relationship with the proposed experimental system. Active noise has been proposed to play key roles in other systems, including motility-driven and tension fluctuation-driven unjamming (among many others Bi et al, PRX, 2016, Mitchel et al, Nat Comm, 2020, Pinheiro et al, Nat Phys, 2022 as well as Kim & Campas, Nat Physics, 2021) - maybe this is somewhere where the author model could fit? In Kim & Campas, Nat Phys, 2021 in particular, the authors develop simulations of non-confluent tissues with noise, that seems to bear some resemblance to the model developed here, so it would be important to discuss the similarities and distinctions (usually I think polydispersity is not considered indeed). In general, the authors look here at a particle based model, but cells have adhesions with well-defined contact angles, so there is a question of the cross-over between their findings and the large body of recent literature on active foams/vertex models (which are not really discussed there).

      We appreciate the lengthy comment here, and there is a lot to unpack. We also thank the referee for the references, some of which we did not know about earlier.

      The primary objective of our study is to determine the simplest minimal model that would explain the experimentally observed dependence of viscosity in zebrafish blastoderm tissue as ϕ is increased beyond a certain packing fraction during morphogenesis. In Reference 14, the authors analyzed the data using the framework of rigidity percolation theory and presented evidence of a genuine equilibrium phase transition. Consequently, one would that expect zebrafish blastoderm tissue to be in equilibrium, which is surprising from many perspectives. However, since the tissue is a growing system involving numerous cell divisions and cell death, it is not immediately evident whether the assumption of equilibrium is valid. Indeed, the same problem arises when considering the glass transition where rapid cooling drives the system out of equilibrium. Nevertheless, heat capacity and η are often analyzed using the notion of equilibrium. Hence, considering this issue within the context of our research appears to be reasonable.

      To the best of our knowledge, the authors in Ref. 14 did not provide an explanation for the η behavior. The focus was, which was excellent and is the basis on which we initiated this study, was on the use of rigidity percolation theory to explain the results. Indeed, they performed an experiment by mildly reducing myosin II activity, which apparently affects cell motility. The quantitative effect was not reported.

      We did not impose any requirement of cell rearrangements etc in the model. There is essentially one variable, free area available, that explains the η dependence on ϕ. It is possible that one can come up with other zero temperature models that could also explain the data. To the best of our knowledge, it has not been proposed.

      It would be interesting to set our model in the context of other models that the referee points out. This would be an interesting research topic to explore. The only comment we would like to make is that it is unclear how vertex model for confluent tissues could explain the viscosity data.

      C/ Calculation of the effective shear viscosity

      The authors calculate viscosity from a Green-Kubo relation, although it would be good to clarify at which time scale (and maybe even shear amplitude) they expect this to be valid. These kinds of model would be expected to show plastic rearrangements for large deformations for instance, could the authors simulate realistic rheological deformations (e.g. Kim & Campas, 2021 applying external shear on the simulations) to see how much this matches both their expectation and the data?

      Once it is established that there is local equilibrium (as implied by the use of phase transition ideas to analyse the experimental data in Ref. 14), it is natural to use the Green-Kubo relation to calculate transport properties. Hence, for our purposes, it is valid for all time scales and amplitude. The Reviewer also wonders if the model could be used to simulate response to shear in order to probe rheological properties. There is no conceptual issue here and indeed this is an excellent suggestion that we intend to pursue in the future.

      D/ Role of cell adhesion

      The authors consider soft elastic disks of different sizes but unless I missed it, there is no adhesion being considered. This is expected to play a key role in jamming and multicellular mechanics, so I think the authors should either look at what this changes in their simulations, or at least discuss why they are neglecting it. One reason I’m asking is that it’s not totally clear to me that the ”free space” picture, coming from the fact that cells can interpenetrate in their model would hold in a model of deformable cells adhering to each other with constant volume (leading to more equilibration of deformations it would seem?).

      The referee raises another question regarding the lack of adhesion in the simulations. As pointed out before, we were trying to create a minimal model to account for the experimental observations for η upon changing the packing fraction. Thus, we a coarse-grained model where we considered poly-disperse cells with elastic interactions which recapitulates the experimental observations. The referee is correct that adhesion plays a role in jammed systems, and examination of how it would affect is an aspect that would be interesting to consider in the future. We hasten to add that even systems without attractive adhesion-type interaction become jammed. In principle, in many-body systems, the parameter space is large and one needs to carefully determine which parameter is important for the problem at hand. Therefore, in the first pass we did not find the need to consider the role of adhesion.

      Minor comments:

      The writing could be condensed in some places, with some details being moved to SI (for instance, section E on ageing is very short and seem more suited for supplements, or at least not as an independent section, note that the figure numbering also jumps to Fig. 9 there, although it’s Fig. 3 just before and Fig. 9 just after - re-ordering into main and supporting figures would be clearer.

      We thank the Reviewer for this recommendation. The ageing section, although is short, it does provide a line of evidence that equilibrium approaches could be valid. We have modestly expanded the section by moving Appendix D to the main text, a general suggestion made by Referee 1. We have tried to be consistent in the numbering of figures in the revision.

      Reviewer #3

      I am very much in favor of the manuscript in its present form - I only suggest commenting (in the manuscript) on the issue described below.

      Motivated by the fact that the experimental system consists of living, motile cells the authors use an active particle model (eq. 6) with stochastic selfpropulsion as the only source for noise (zero-temperature). It would be useful to elaborate briefly how important this stochastic self-propulsion is for the emergent rheological properties of the system (as summarized above): would these properties also be present in the “passive” version of the same model at “non-vanishing” temperature, and if not, why? Or analogously in a “passive” version which is “shaken”, reminiscent of shaken granular matter? To clarify these issues would relate this study to (or discriminate it from) passive, but complex, liquids or granular matter.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s positive feedback on our work. The reviewer has raised an important question concerning our model in which self-propulsion serves as the source of noise. Without self-propulsion, the system would come to a stationary state after reaching mechanical equilibrium. As mentioned in Eqn. (6) (in the main text), we can define a characteristic time . It is possible that scaling the time t by τ would not alter the results.

      The second question raised by the reviewer is also important. A passive version of the model would be to consider Eq. 6 in our article, and instead of using activity use the standard stochastic force. The resulting force would be at a finite temperature,. The coefficient of noise (a diffusion term) would be related to γi through the Fluctuation dissipation theorem(FDT)). Such a system of equations cannot ne mapped to Eq. 6 in which µ and γi are independently varied. It is unlikely that such a model, incorporating a “non-vanishing” temperature, would not result in the observed dependence of η on ϕ for the following reason. The passive model represents a polydisperse system, which would form a glass with η increasing with volume fraction, following the VFT law, as has been demonstrated in the glass transition literature for harmonic glasses. The other proposal whether the shaken version version would explain the experiments is also interesting. These are worth pursuing in future studies.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Zanetti et al use biophysical and cellular assays to investigate the interaction of the birnavirus VP3 protein with the early endosome lipid PI3P. The major novel finding is that association of the VP3 protein with an anionic lipid (PI3P) appears to be important for viral replication, as evidenced through a cellular assay on FFUs.

      Strengths:

      Support previously published claims that VP3 associates with early endosome membrane, potentially through binding to PI3P. The finding that mutating a single residue (R200) critically affects early endosome binding and that the same mutation also inhibits viral replication suggests a very important role for this binding in the viral life cycle.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript is relatively narrowly focused: the specifics of the bi-molecular interaction between the VP3 of an unusual avian virus and a host cell lipid (PIP3). Further, the affinity of this interaction is low and its specificity relative to other PIPs is not tested, leading to questions about whether VP3-PI3P binding is relevant.

      Regarding the manuscript’s focus, we challenge the notion that studying a single bi-molecular interaction makes the scope of the paper overly narrow. This interaction—between VP3 and PI3P—plays a critical role in the replication of the birnavirus, which is the central theme of our work. Moreover, identifying and understanding such distinct interactions is a fundamental aspect of molecular virology, as they shed light on the precise mechanisms that viruses exploit to hijack the host cell machinery. Consequently, far from being narrowly focused, we believe our work contributes to the broader understanding of host-pathogen interactions.

      As for the low affinity of the VP3-PI3P interaction, we argue that this is not a limitation but rather a biologically relevant feature. As discussed in the manuscript, the moderate strength of this interaction is likely critical for regulating the turnover rate of VP3/endosomal PI3P complexes, which in turn could optimize viral replication efficiency. A stronger affinity might trap VP3 on the endosomal membrane, whereas weaker interactions might reduce its ability to efficiently target PI3P. Thus, the observed affinity may reflect a fine-tuned balance that supports the viral life cycle.

      With regard to specificity, we emphasize that in the context of the paper, we refer to biological specificity, which is not necessarily the same as chemical specificity. The binding of PI3P to early endosomes is “biologically” preconditioned by the distribution of PI3P within the cell. PI3P is predominantly localized in endosomal membranes, which “biologically precludes” interference from other PIPs due to their distinct cellular distributions. Moreover, while early endosomes also contain other anionic lipids, our work demonstrates that among these, PI3P plays a distinctive role in VP3 binding. This highlights its functional relevance in the context of early endosome dynamics.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Infectious bursal disease virus (IBDV) is a birnavirus and an important avian pathogen. Interestingly, IBDV appears to be a unique dsRNA virus that uses early endosomes for RNA replication that is more common for +ssRNA viruses such as for example SARS-CoV-2. This work builds on previous studies showing that IBDV VP3 interacts with PIP3 during virus replication. The authors provide further biophysical evidence for the interaction and map the interacting domain on VP3.

      Strengths:

      Detailed characterization of the interaction between VP3 and PIP3 identified R200D mutation as critical for the interaction. Cryo-EM data show that VP3 leads to membrane deformation.

      We thank the reviewer for the feedback.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Zanetti et al. use biophysical and cellular assays to investigate the interaction of the birnavirus VP3 protein with the early endosome lipid PI3P. The major novel finding is that the association of the VP3 protein with an anionic lipid (PI3P) appears to be important for viral replication, as evidenced through a cellular assay on FFUs.

      Strengths:

      Supports previously published claims that VP3 may associate with early endosomes and bind to PI3P-containing membranes. The claim that mutating a single residue (R<sub>200</sub>) critically affects early endosome binding and that the same mutation also inhibits viral replication suggests a very important role for this binding in the viral life cycle.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript is relatively narrowly focused: one bimolecular interaction between a host cell lipid and one protein of an unusual avian virus (VP3-PI3P). Aspects of this interaction have been described previously. Additional data would strengthen claims about the specificity and some technical issues should be addressed. Many of the core claims would benefit from additional experimental support to improve consistency.

      Indeed, our group has previously described aspects of the VP3-PI3P interaction, as indicated in lines 100-105 from the manuscript. In this manuscript, however, we present biochemical and biophysical details that have not been reported before about how VP3 connects with early endosomes, showing that it interacts directly with the PI3P. Additionally, we have now identified a critical residue in VP3—the R<sub>200</sub>—for binding to PI3P and its key role in the viral life cycle. Furthermore, the molecular dynamics simulations helped us come up with a mechanism for VP3 to connect with PI3P in early endosomes. This constitutes a big step forward in our understanding of how these "non-canonical" viruses replicate.

      We have now incorporated new experimental and simulation data; and have carefully revised the manuscript in accordance with the reviewers’ recommendations. We are confident that these improvements have further strengthened the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Birnavirus replication factories form alongside early endosomes (EEs) in the host cell cytoplasm. Previous work from the Delgui lab has shown that the VP3 protein of the birnavirus strain infectious bursal disease virus (IBDV) interacts with phosphatidylinositol-3-phosphate (PI3P) within the EE membrane (Gimenez et al., 2018, 2020). Here, Zanetti et al. extend this previous work by biochemically mapping the specific determinants within IBDV VP3 that are required for PI3P binding in vitro, and they employ in silico simulations to propose a biophysical model for VP3-PI3P interactions.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is generally well-written, and much of the data is rigorous and solid. The results provide deep knowledge into how birnaviruses might nucleate factories in association with EEs. The combination of approaches (biochemical, imaging, and computational) employed to investigate VP3-PI3P interactions is deemed a strength.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Concerns about the sources, sizes, and amounts of recombinant proteins used for co-flotation: Figures 1A, 1B, 1G, and 4A show the results of co-flotation experiments in which recombinant proteins (control His-FYVE v. either full length or mutant His VP3) were either found to be associated with membranes (top) or non-associated (bottom). However, in some experiments, the total amounts of protein in the top + bottom fractions do not appear to be consistent in control v. experimental conditions. For instance, the Figure 4A western blot of His-2xFYVE following co-flotation with PI3P+ membranes shows almost no detectable protein in either top or bottom fractions.

      Liposome-based methods, such as the co-flotation assay, are well-established and widely regarded as the preferred approach for studying protein-phosphoinositide interactions. However, this approach is rather qualitative, as density gradient separation reveals whether the protein is located in the top fractions (bound to liposomes) or the bottom fractions (unbound). Our quantifications aim to demonstrate differences in the bound fraction between liposome populations with and without PI3P. Given the setting of the co-flotation assays, each protein-liposome system [2xFYVE-PI3P(-), 2xFYVE-PI3P(+), VP3-PI3P(-), or VP3-PI3P(+)] is assessed separately, and even if the experimental conditions are homogeneous, it is not surprising to observe differences in the protein level between different experiments. Indeed, the revised version of the manuscript includes membranes with more similar band intensities, as depicted in the new versions of Figures 1 and 4.

      Reading the paper, it was difficult to understand which source of protein was used for each experiment (i.e., E. coli or baculovirus-expressed), and this information is contradicted in several places (see lines 358-359 v. 383-384). Also, both the control protein and the His-VP3-FL proteins show up as several bands in the western blots, but they don't appear to be consistent with the sizes of the proteins stated on lines 383-384. For example, line 383 states that His-VP3-FL is ~43 kDa, but the blots show triplet bands that are all below the 35 kDa marker (Figures 1B and 1G). Mass spectrometry information is shown in the supplemental data (describing the different bands for His-VP3-FL) but this is not mentioned in the actual manuscript, causing confusion. Finally, the results appear to differ throughout the paper (see Figures 1B v. 1G and 1A v. 4A).

      Thank you for pointing out these potentially confusing points in the previous version of the manuscript. Indeed, we were able to produce recombinant VP3 from the two sources: Baculovirus and Escherichia coli. Initially, we opted for the baculovirus system, based on evidence from previous studies showing that it was suitable for ectopic expression of VP3. Subsequently, we successfully produced VP3 using Escherichia coli. On the other side, the fusion proteins His-2xFYVE and GST-2xFYVE were only produced in the prokaryotic system, also following previous reported evidence. We confirmed that VP3, produced in either system, exhibited similar behavior in our co-flotation and bio-layer interferometry (BLI) assays. However, the results of co-flotation and BLI assays shown in Figs. 1 and 4 were performed using the His-VP3 FL, His-VP3 FL R<sub>200</sub>D and His-VP3 FL DCt fusion proteins produced from the corresponding baculoviruses. We have clarified this in the revised version of our manuscript. Please, see lines 430-432.

      Additionally, we have made clear that the His-VP3 FL protein purification yielded four distinct bands, and we confirmed their VP3 identity through mass spectrometry in the revised version of the manuscript. Please, see lines 123-124.

      Finally, we replaced membranes for Figs. 4A and 1G (left panel) with those with more similar band intensities. Please, see the new version of Figures 1 and 4.

      (2) Possible "other" effects of the R<sub>200</sub>D mutation on the VP3 protein. The authors performed mutagenesis to identify which residues within patch 2 on VP3 are important for association with PI3P. They found that a VP3 mutant with an engineered R<sub>200</sub>D change (i) did not associate with PI3P membranes in co-floatation assays, and (ii) did not co-localize with EE markers in transfected cells. Moreover, this mutation resulted in the loss of IBDV viability in reverse genetics studies. The authors interpret these results to indicate that this residue is important for "mediating VP3-PI3P interaction" (line 211) and that this interaction is essential for viral replication. However, it seems possible that this mutation abrogated other aspects of VP3 function (e.g., dimerization or other protein/RNA interactions) aside from or in addition to PI3P binding. Such possibilities are not mentioned by the authors.

      The arginine amino acid at position 200 of VP3 is not located in any of the protein regions associated with its other known functions: VP3 has a dimerization domain located in the second helical domain, where different amino acids across the three helices form a total of 81 interprotomeric close contacts; however, R<sub>200</sub> is not involved in these contacts (Structure. 2008 Jan;16(1):29-37, doi:10.1016/j.str.2007.10.023); VP3 has an oligomerization domain mapped within the 42 C-terminal residues of the polypeptide, i.e., the segment of the protein composed by the residues at positions 216-257 (J Virol. 2003 Jun;77(11):6438–6449, doi: 10.1128/jvi.77.11.6438-6449.2003); VP3’s ability to bind RNA is facilitated by a region of positively-charged amino acids, identified as P1, which includes K<sub>99</sub>, R<sub>102</sub>, K<sub>105</sub>, and K<sub>106</sub> (PLoS One. 2012;7(9):e45957, doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0045957). Furthermore, our findings indicate that the R<sub>200</sub>D mutant retains a folding pattern similar to the wild-type protein, as shown in Figure 4B. All these lead us to conclude that the loss of replication capacity of R<sub>200</sub>D viruses results from impaired, or even loss of, VP3-PI3P interaction.

      We agree with the reviewer that this is an important point and have accordingly addressed it in the Discussion section of the revised manuscript. Please, see lines 333-346.

      (3) Interpretations from computational simulations. The authors performed computational simulations on the VP3 structure to infer how the protein might interact with membranes. Such computational approaches are powerful hypothesis-generating tools. However, additional biochemical evidence beyond what is presented would be required to support the authors' claims that they "unveiled a two-stage modular mechanism" for VP3-PI3P interactions (see lines 55-59). Moreover, given the biochemical data presented for R<sub>200</sub>D VP3, it was surprising that the authors did not perform computational simulations on this mutant. The inclusion of such an experiment would help tie together the in vitro and in silico data and strengthen the manuscript.

      We acknowledge that the wording used in the previous version of the manuscript may have overstated the "unveiling" of the two-stage binding mechanism of VP3. Our intention was to propose a potential mechanism, that is consistent both with the biophysical experiments and the molecular simulations. In the revised version of the manuscript, we have tempered these claims and framed them more appropriately.

      Regarding the simulations for the R<sub>200</sub>D VP3 mutant, these simulations were indeed performed and included in the original manuscript as part of Figure S14 in the Supplementary Information. However, we realize that this was not sufficiently emphasized in the main text, an oversight on our part. We have now revised the manuscript to highlight these results more clearly.

      Additionally, to further strengthen the connection between experimental and simulation trends, we have now included a new figure in the Supplementary Information (Figure S15). This figure depicts the binding energy of VP3 ΔNt and two of its mutants, VP3 ΔNt R<sub>200</sub>D and VP3 ΔNt P2 Mut, as a function of salt concentration. The results show that as the number of positively charged residues in VP3 is systematically reduced, the binding of the protein to the membrane becomes weaker. The effect is more pronounced at lower salt concentrations, which highlights the weight of electrostatic forces on the adsorption of VP3 on negatively charged membranes. Please, see Supplementary Information (Figure S15).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Infectious bursal disease virus (IBDV) is a birnavirus and an important avian pathogen. Interestingly, IBDV appears to be a unique dsRNA virus that uses early endosomes for RNA replication that is more common for +ssRNA viruses such as for example SARS-CoV-2.

      This work builds on previous studies showing that IBDV VP3 interacts with PIP3 during virus replication. The authors provide further biophysical evidence for the interaction and map the interacting domain on VP3.

      Strengths:

      Detailed characterization of the interaction between VP3 and PIP3 identified R<sub>200</sub>D mutation as critical for the interaction. Cryo-EM data show that VP3 leads to membrane deformation.

      Weaknesses:

      The work does not directly show that the identified R<sub>200</sub> residues are directly involved in VP3-early endosome recruitment during infection. The majority of work is done with transfected VP3 protein (or in vitro) and not in virus-infected cells. Additional controls such as the use of PIP3 antagonizing drugs in infected cells together with a colocalization study of VP3 with early endosomes would strengthen the study.

      In addition, it would be advisable to include a control for cryo-EM using liposomes that do not contain PIP3 but are incubated with HIS-VP3-FL. This would allow ruling out any unspecific binding that might not be detected on WB.

      The authors also do not propose how their findings could be translated into drug development that could be applied to protect poultry during an outbreak. The title of the manuscript is broad and would improve with rewording so that it captures what the authors achieved.

      In previous works from our group, we demonstrated the crucial role of the VP3 P2 region in targeting the early endosomal membranes and for viral replication, including the use of PI3K inhibitors to deplete PI3P, showing that both the control RFP-2xFYVE and VP3 lost their ability to associate with the early endosomal membranes and reduces the production of an infective viral progeny (J Virol. 2018 May 14;92(11):e01964-17, doi: 10.1128/jvi.01964-17; J Virol. 2021 Feb 24;95(6):e02313-20, doi: 10.1128/jvi.02313-20). In the present work, to further characterize the role of R<sub>200</sub> in binding to early endosomes and for viral replication, we show that: i) the transfected VP3 R<sub>200</sub>D protein loses the ability to bind to early endosomes in immunofluorescence assays (Figure 2E and Figure 3); ii) the recombinant His-VP3 FL R<sub>200</sub>D protein loses the ability to bind to liposomes PI3P(+) in co-flotation assays (Figure 4A); and, iii) the mutant virus R<sub>200</sub>D loses replication capacity (Figure 4C).

      Regarding the cryo-electron microscopy observation, we verified that there is no binding of gold particles to liposomes PI3P(-) when they are incubated solely with the gold-particle reagent, or when they are pre-incubated with the gold-particle reagent with either His-2xFYVE or His-VP3 FL. We have incorporated a new panel in Figure 1C showing a representative image of these results. Please, see lines 143-144 in the revised version of our manuscript and our revised version of Figure 1C.

      We have replaced the title of the manuscript by a more specific one. Thus, our current is " On the Role of VP3-PI3P Interaction in Birnavirus Endosomal Membrane Targeting".

      Regarding the question of how our findings could be translated into drug development, indeed, VP3-PI3P binding constitutes a good potential target for drugs that counteract infectious bursal disease. However, we did not mention this idea in the manuscript, first because it is somewhat speculative and second because infected farms do not implement any specific treatment. The control is based on vaccination.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Critical issues to address:

      (1) The citations in the important paragraph on lines 101-5 are not identifiable. These references are described as showing that VP3 is associated with EEs via P2 and PI3P, which is basically what this paper also shows. The significant advance here is unclear.

      We apologize for this mistake. These citations are identifiable in the revised version of the manuscript (lines 100-105). As mentioned before, in this manuscript we present biochemical and biophysical details that have not been reported before about how VP3 connects with early endosomes, showing that it interacts directly with the PI3P. Additionally, we have now identified a critical residue in VP3 P2—the R<sub>200</sub>—for binding to PI3P and its key role in the viral life cycle. Furthermore, the molecular dynamics simulations helped us come up with a mechanism for VP3 to connect with PI3P in early endosomes. This constitutes a big step forward in our understanding of how these "non-canonical" viruses replicate.

      (2) Even if all the claims were to be clearly supported through major revamping, authors should make the significance of knowing that this protein binds to early endosomes through PI3P more clear?

      Thank you for the recommendation, which aligns with a similar suggestion from Reviewer #2. In response, we have revised the significance paragraph to emphasize the mechanistic aspects of our findings. Please refer to lines 62–67 in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Flotation assay shows binding, but this is not quantitative. An estimate of a Kd would be useful. BLI experiments suggest that half of the binding disappears at 0.5 mM, implying a very low binding affinity.

      We agree with the reviewer that our biophysical and molecular simulation results suggest a specific but weak interaction of VP3 with PI3P bearing membranes. Indeed, our previous version of the manuscript already contained a paragraph in this regard. Please, see lines 323-332 in the revised version of the manuscript.

      From a biological point of view, a low binding affinity of VP3 for the endosomes may constitute an advantage for the virus, in the sense that its traffic through the endosomes may be short lived during its infectious cycle. Indeed, VP3 has been demonstrated to be a "multifunctional" protein involved in several processes of the viral cycle (detailed in lines 84-90), and in our laboratory we have shown that the Golgi complex and the endoplasmic reticulum are organelles where further viral maturation occurs. Taking all of this into account, a high binding affinity of VP3 for endosomes could result in the protein becoming trapped on the endosomal membrane, potentially hindering the progression of the viral infection within the host cell.

      (4) There are some major internal inconsistencies in the data: Figure 1B quantifies VP3-FL T/B ratio ~4 (which appears inconsistent with the image shown, as the T lanes are much lighter than the B) whereas apparently the same experiment in Figure 1G shows it to be ~0.6. With the error bars shown, these results would appear dramatically different from each other, despite supposedly measuring the same thing. The same issue with the FYVE domain between Figures 1A and 4A.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment, as it made us aware of an error in Figure 1B. There, the mean value for the VP3-FL Ts/B ratio is 3.0786 for liposomes PI3P(+) and 0.4553 for liposomes PI3P(-) (Please, see the new bar graph on Figure 1B). This may have occurred because, due to the significance of these experiments, we performed multiple rounds of quantification in search of the most suitable procedure for our observations, leading to a mix-up of data sets. Anyway, it’s possible that these corrected values still seem inconsistent given that T lanes are much lighter than the B for VP3-FL in the image shown. Flotation assays are quite labor-intensive and, at least in our experience, yield fairly variable results in terms of quantification. To illustrate this point, the following image shows the three experiments conducted for Figure 1B, where it is clear that, despite producing visually distinct images, all three yielded the same qualitative observation. For Figure 1B, we chose to present the results from experiment #2. However, all three experiments contributed to a Ts/B ratio of 3.0786 for His-VP3 FL, which may account for the apparent inconsistency when focusing solely on the image in Figure 1B.

      Author response image 1.

      We acknowledge that, at first glance, some inconsistencies may appear in the results, and we have thoroughly discussed the best approach for quantification. However, we believe the observations are robust in terms of reproducibility and reliable, as the VP3-PI3P interaction was consistently validated by comparison with liposomes lacking PI3P, where no binding was observed.

      (5) Comparison of PA (or PI) to PI3P at the same molar concentration is inappropriate because PI3P has at least double charge. The more interesting question about specificity would be whether PI45P2 (or even better PI35P2) binds or not. Without this comparison, no claim to specificity can be made.

      For us, "specificity" refers to the requirement of a phosphoinositide in the endosomal membrane for VP3 binding. Phosphoinositides have a conspicuous distribution among cellular compartments, and knowing that VP3 associates with early endosomes, our specificity assays aimed to demonstrate that PI3P is strictly required for the binding of VP3. To validate this, we used PI (lacking the phosphate group) and PA (lacking the inositol group) despite their similar charges. In spite of the potential chemical interactions between VP3 and various phosphoinositides, our experimental results suggest that the virus specifically targets endosomal membranes by binding to PI3P, a phosphoinositide present only in early endosomes.

      That said, we agree with the reviewer’s point and consider adequate to smooth our specificity claim in the manuscript as follows: “We observed that His-VP3 FL bound to liposomes PI3P(+), but not to liposomes PA or PI, reinforcing the notion that a phosphoinositide is required since neither a single negative charge nor an inositol ring are sufficient to promote VP3 binding to liposomes (SI Appendix, Fig. S2)” (Lines 136-139).

      (6) In the EM images, many of the gold beads are inside the vesicles. How do they cross the membranes?

      They do not cross the membrane. Our EM images are two-dimensional projections, meaning that the gold particles located on top or beneath the plane appear to be inside the liposome.

      (7) Images in Figure 2D are very low quality and do not show the claimed difference between any of the mutants. All red signal looks basically cytosolic in all images. It is not clear what criteria were used for the quantification in Figure 2E. The same issue is in Figure 2E, where no red WT puncta are observable at all. Consistently, there is minimal colocalization in the quantification in Figure S3, which appears to show no significant differences between any of the mutants, in direct contradiction to the claim in the manuscript.

      We apologize for the poor quality of panels in Figures 2D and 2E. Unfortunately, this was due to the PDF conversion of the original files. Please, check the high-quality version of Figure 2. As suggested by reviewers #2 and #3, we have incorporated zoomed panels, which help the reader to better see the differences in distribution.

      As mentioned in the legend to Figure 2, the quantification in Figure 2D was performed by calculating the percentage of cells with punctuated fluorescent red signal (showing VP3 distribution) for each protein. The data were then normalized to the P2 WT protein, which is the VP3 wild type.

      Figure S3 certainly shows a tendency which positively correlates with the results shown in Figure 3, where we used FYVE to detect PI3P on endosomes and observed significantly less co-localization when VP3 bears its P2 region all reversed or lacks the R<sub>200</sub>

      (8) The only significant differences in colocalization are in Figure 3B, whose images look rather dramatically different from the rest of the manuscript, leading to some concern about repeatability. Also, it is unclear how colocalization is quantified, but this number typically cannot be above 1. Finally, it is unclear what is being colocalized here: with three fluorescent components, there are 3 possible binary colocalizations and an additional ternary colocalization.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out those aspects related to Figure 3. The experiments performed for Figure 3B were conducted by a collaborator abroad handling the purified GST-2xFYVE, which recognizes endogenous PI3P, while the rest of the cell biology experiments were conducted in our laboratory in Argentina. This is why they are aesthetically different. We have made an effort in homogenizing the way they look for the revised version of the manuscript. Please, see the new version of Figure 3.

      For quantification of the co-localization of VP3 and EGFP-2xFYVE (Figure 3A), the Manders M2 coefficient was calculated out of approximately 30 cells per construct and experiment. The M2 coefficient, which reflects co-localization of signals, is defined as the ratio of the total intensities of magenta image pixels for which the intensity in the blue channel is above zero to the total intensity in the magenta channel. JACoP plugin was utilized to determine M2. For VP3 puncta co-distributing with EEA1 and GST-FYVE (Figure 3B), the number of puncta co-distributing for the three signals was manually determined out of approximately 40 cells per construct and experiment per 200 µm². We understand that Manders or Pearson coefficients, typically ranging between 0 and 1, is the most commonly used method to quantify co-localizing immunofluorescent signals; however, this “manual” method has been used and validated in previous published manuscripts [Figures 3 and 7 from (Morel et al., 2013); Figure 7 in (Khaldoun et al., 2014); and Figure 4 in (Boukhalfa et al., 2021)].

      (9) SegA/B plasmids are not introduced, and it is not clear what these are or how this assay is meant to work. Where are the foci forming units in the images of Figure 4C? How does this inform on replication? Again, this assay is not quantitative, which is essential here: does the R<sub>200</sub> mutant completely kill activity (whatever that is here)? Or reduce it somewhat?

      We apologize for the missing information. Segments A and B are basically the components of the IBDV reverse genetics system. For their construction, we used a modification of the system described by Qi and coworkers (Qi et al., 2007), in which the full length sequences of the IBDV RNA segments A and B, flanked by a hammerhead ribozyme at the 5’-end and the hepatitis delta ribozyme at the 3’-end, were expressed under the control of an RNA polymerase II promoter within the plasmids pCAGEN.Hmz.SegA.Hdz (SegA) and pCAGEN.Hmz.SegB.Hdz (SegB). For this specific experiment we generated a third plasmid, pCAGEN.Hmz.SegA.R<sub>200</sub>D.Hdz (SegA.R<sub>200</sub>D), harboring a mutant version of segment A cDNA containing the R<sub>200</sub>D substitution. Then, QM7 cells were transfected with the plasmids SegA, SegB or Seg.R<sub>200</sub>D alone (as controls) or with a mixture of plasmids SegA+SegB (wild type situation) or SegA.R<sub>200</sub>D+SegB (mutant situation). At 8 h post transfection (p.t.), when the new viruses have been able to assemble starting from the two segments of RNA, the cells were recovered and re-plated onto fresh non-transfected cells for revealing the presence (or not) of infective viruses. At 72 h post-plating, the generation of foci forming units (FFUs) was revealed by Coomassie staining. As expected, single-transfections of SegA, SegB or Seg.R<sub>200</sub>D did not produce FFUs and, as shown in Figure 4C, the transfection of SegA+SegB produced detectable FFUs (the three circles in the upper panel) while no FFUs (the three circles in the lower panel) were detected after the transfection of SegA.R<sub>200</sub>D+SegB (Figure 4C). This system is quantitative, since the FFUs detected 72 h post-plating are quantifiable by simply counting the FFUs. However, since no FFUs were detected after the transfection of SegA.R<sub>200</sub>D+SegB, evidenced by a complete monolayer of cells stained blue, we did not find any sense in quantifying. In turn, this drastic observation indicates that viruses bearing the VP3 R<sub>200</sub>D mutation lose their replication ability (is “dead”), demonstrating its crucial role in the infectious cycle.

      We agree with the reviewer that a better explanation was needed in the manuscript, so we have incorporated a paragraph in the results section of our revised version of the manuscript (lines 209-219).

      (10) Why pH 8 for simulation?

      The Molecular Theory calculations were performed at pH 8 for consistency with the experimental conditions used in our biophysical assays. These biophysical experiments were also performed at pH 8, following the conditions established in the original study where VP3 was first purified for crystallization (DOI: 10.1016/j.str.2007.10.023).

      (11) There is minimal evidence for the sequential binding model described in the abstract. The simulations do not resolve this model, nor is truly specific PI3P binding shown.

      In response to your concerns, we would like to emphasize that our simulations provide robust evidence supporting the two more important aspects of the sequential binding model: 1) Membrane Approach: In all simulations, VP3 consistently approaches the membrane via its positively charged C-terminal (Ct) region. 2) PI3P Recruitment: Once the protein is positioned flat on the membrane surface, PI3P is unequivocally recruited to the positively charged P2 region. The enrichment of PI3P in the proximity to the protein is clearly observed and has been quantified via radial distribution functions, as detailed in the manuscript and supplementary material.

      While we understand that opinions may vary on the sufficiency of the data to fully validate the model, we believe the results offer meaningful insights into the proposed binding mechanism. That said, we acknowledge that the specificity of VP3 binding may not be restricted solely to PI3P but could extend to phosphoinositides in general. To address this, we performed the new set of co-flotation experiments which are discussed in detail in our response to point 5.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Line 1: Consider changing the title to better reflect the mostly biochemical and computational data presented in the paper: "Mechanism of Birnavirus VP3 Interactions with PI3P-Containing Membranes". There are no data to show hijacking by a virus presented.

      We appreciate this recommendation, which was also expressed by reviewer #3. Additionally, we thank for the suggested title. We have replaced the title of the manuscript by a more specific one. Thus, our current is

      "On the Role of VP3-PI3P Interaction in Birnavirus Endosomal Membrane Targeting".

      (2) Lines 53-54 and throughout: Consider rephrasing "demonstrate" to "validate" to give credit to Gimenez et al., 2018, 2022 for discovery.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have followed it accordingly. Please see line 52 from our revised version of the manuscript.

      (3) Line 56-59 and throughout: Consider tempering and rephrasing these conclusions that are based mostly on computational data. For example, change "unveil" to "suggest" or another term.

      We have now modified the wording throughout the manuscript.

      (4) The abstract could also emphasize that this study sought to map the resides within VP3 that are important for P13P interaction.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have followed it accordingly. Please, see lines 53-55 from our revised version of the manuscript.

      (5) Lines 63-69: This Significance paragraph seems tangential. The findings in this paper aren't at all related to the evolutionary link between birnaviruses and positive-strand RNA viruses. The significance of the work for me lies in the deep biochemical/biophysical insights into how a viral protein interacts with membranes to nucleate its replication factory.

      We have re-written the significance paragraph highlighting the mechanistic aspect of our findings. Please, see lines 62-67 in our revised version of the manuscript.

      (6) Line 74: Please define "IDBV" abbreviation.

      We apologize for the missing information. We have defined the IBDV abbreviation in our revised version of the manuscript (please, see line 73).

      (7) Line 88: Please define "pVP2" abbreviation.

      We apologize for the missing information. We have defined the pVP2 abbreviation in our revised version of the manuscript (please, see line 87).

      (8) Lines 101-105: Please change references (8, 9, 10) to be consistent with the rest of the manuscript (names, year).

      We apologize for this mistake. These citations are identifiable and consistent in the revised version of the manuscript (lines 100-105).

      (9) Line 125: For a broad audience, consider explaining that recombinant His-2xFYVE domain is known to exhibit PI3P-binding specificity and was used as a positive control.

      Thanks for the recommendation. We have incorporated a brief explanation supporting the use of His-2xFYVE as a positive control in our revised version of the manuscript. Please, see lines 127-129.

      (10) Lines 167-171: The quantitative data in Figure S3 shows that there was a non-significant co-localization coefficient of the R<sub>200</sub>D mutant. For transparency, this should be stated in the Results section when referenced.

      We agree with this recommendation. We have clearly mentioned it in the revised version of the manuscript. Please, see lines 177-179. Also, we have referred this fact when introducing the assays performed using the purified GST-2xFYVE, shown in Figure 3. Please, see lines 182-184.

      (11) Lines 156 and 173: These Results section titles have nearly identical wording. Consider rephrasing to make it distinct.

      We agree with the reviewer’s observation. In fact, we sought to do it on purpose as for them to be a “wordplay”, but we understand that could result in a awkwarded redundancy. So, in the revised version of the manuscript, both titles are:

      Role of VP3 P2 in the association of VP3 with the EE membrane (line 163).

      VP3 P2 mediates VP3-PI3P association to EE membranes (line 182).

      (12) Line 194: Is it alternatively possible that the R<sub>200</sub>D mutant lost its capacity to dimerize, and that in turn impacted PI3P interaction?

      Thanks for the relevant question. VP3 was crystallized and its structure reported in (Casañas et al., 2008) (DOI: 10.1016/j.str.2007.10.023). In that report, the authors showed that the two VP3 subunits associate in a symmetrical manner by using the crystallographic two-fold axes. Each subunit contributes with its 30% of the total surface to form the dimer, with 81 interprotomeric close contacts, including polar bonds and van der Waals contacts. The authors identified the group of residues involved in these interactions, among which the R<sub>200</sub> is not included. Addittionally, the authors determined that the interface of the VP3 dimer in crystals is biologically meaningful (not due to the crystal packing).

      To confirm that the lack of binding was not due to misfolding of the mutant, we compared the circular dichroism spectra of mutant and wild type proteins, without detecting significant differences (shown in Figure 4B). These observations do not exclude the possibility mentioned by the reviewer, but constitute solid evidences, we believe, to validate our observations.

      (13) Lines 231-243: Consider changing verbs to past tense (i.e., change "is" to "was") for the purposes of consistency and tempering.

      Thanks for the recommendation, we have proceeded as suggested. Please, see lines 249-262 in our revised version of the manuscript.

      (14) Lines 306-308: Is there any information about whether it is free VP3 (v. VP3 complexed in RNP) that binds to membrane? I am just trying to wrap my head around how these factories form during infection.

      Thanks for pointing this out. We first observed that in infected cell, all the components of the RNPs [VP3, VP1 (the viral polymerase) and the dsRNA] were associated to the endosomes. Since by this moment it had been already elucidated that VP3 "wrapped" de dsRNA within the RNPs (Luque et al., 2009) (DOI: 10.1016/j.jmb.2008.11.029), we sought that VP3 was most probably leading this association. We answered yes after studying its distribution, also endosome-associated, when ectopically expressed. These results were published in (Delgui et al., 2013) (DOI: 10.1128/jvi.03152-12).

      Thus, in our subsequent studies, we have worked with both, the infection-derived or the ectopically expressed VP3, to advance in elucidating the mechanism by which VP3 hijacks the endosomal membranes and its relevancy for viral replication, reported in this current manuscript.

      (15) Lines 320-334: This last paragraph discussing evolutionary links between birnaviruses and positive-strand RNA viruses seems tangential and distracting. Consider reducing or removing.

      Thanks for highlighting this aspect of our work. Maybe difficult to follow, but in the context of other evidences reported for the Birnaviridae family of viruses, we strongly believe that there is an evolutionary aspect in having observed that these dsRNA viruses replicate associated to membranous organelles, a hallmark of +RNA viruses. However, we agree with the reviewer that this might not be the main point of our manuscript, so we reduced this paragraph accordingly. Please, see lines 358-367 in our revised version of the manuscript.

      (16) Lines 322-324: Change "RdRd" to "RdRp" if keeping paragraph.

      Thanks. We have corrected this mistake in lines 360 and 361.

      (17) Figures 1A, 1B, and throughout: Again, please check and explain protein sizes and amounts. This would improve the clarity of the manuscript.

      All our flotation assays were performed using 1 mM concentration of purified protein in a final volume of 100 mL (mentioned in M&M section). The complete fusion protein His-2xFYVE (shown in Figs. 1A and 4A left panel) is 954 base pairs-long and contains 317 residues (~35 kDa). The complete fusion protein His-VP3 FL (shown in Figs. 1B and 1G left panel) is 861 base pairs-long and contains 286 residues (~32 kDa). The complete fusion protein His-VP3 DCt (shown in Fig. 1G, right panel) is 753 bp-long and contains 250 residues (~28 kDa). The complete fusion protein His-VP3 FL R<sub>200</sub>D (shown in Fig. 4A right panel) is 861 bp-long and contains 286 residues (~32 kDa). This latter information was incorporated in our revised version of the manuscript. Please, see lines 381-382, 396-397 and 399-400 from the M&M section, and lines in the corresponding figure legends.

      (18) Figures 1B and 1G show different results for PI3P(+) membranes. I see protein associated with the top fraction in 1B, but I don't see any such result in 1G.

      As already mentioned, liposome-based methods, such as the co-flotation assay, are well-established and widely regarded as the preferred approach for studying protein-phosphoinositide interactions. However, this approach is rather qualitative, as density gradient separation reveals whether the protein is located in the top fractions (bound to liposomes) or the bottom fractions (unbound). Our quantifications aim to demonstrate differences in the bound fraction between liposome populations with and without PI3P. Given the setting of the co-flotation assays, each protein-liposome system [2xFYVE-PI3P(-), 2xFYVE-PI3P(+), VP3-PI3P(-), or VP3-PI3P(+)] is assessed separately, and even if the conditions are homogeneous, it’s not surprising to observe differences in the protein level between each one. Indeed, the revised version of the manuscript include a membrane for Figure 1G, were His-VP3 FL associated with the top fraction is more clear. Please, see the new version of Figure 1G.

      (19) Figure 1C: Please include cryo-EM images of the liposome PI3P(-) variables to assess the visual differences of the liposomal membranes under these conditions.

      Thanks for the recommendation. it has been verified that there is no binding of gold particles to liposomes PI3P(-) when they are incubated solely with the gold-particle reagent, or when they are pre-incubated with the gold-particle reagent with either His-2xFYVE or His-VP3 FL. We have incorporated a new panel in Figure 1C showing a representative image of these results. Please, see lines 143-144 in the revised version of our manuscript and our revised version of Figure 1C.

      (20) Figures 2D, 2E, and 3A: The puncta are not obvious in these images. Consider adding Zoomed panels.

      We apologize for this aspect of Figures 2 and 3, also highlighted by reviewer #1. We believe that this was due to the low quality resulting from the PDF conversion of the original files. For Figure 3A, we have homogenized its aspect with those from 3B. Regarding Figure 2, we have incorporated zoomed panels, as suggested. Please, see the revised versions of both Figures.

      (21) Figure 4A: There is almost no protein in the control PI3P(+) blot. Why? Also, the quantification shows no significant membrane association for this control. This result is different from Figure 1A and very confusing (and concerning).

      We apologize for the confusion. We replaced membranes for Figure 4A (left panel) with more similar band intensities to that shown in Figure 1A. Please, visit our new version of Figure 4. The quantification shows no significant difference in the association to liposomes PI3P(+) compared to liposomes PI3P(+); it’s true and this is due to, once more, the intrinsically lack of homogeneity of co-flotation assays. However, this one shown in Figure 4A is a redundant control (has been shown in Figure 1A) and we believe that the new membrane is qualitative eloquent.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Overall, the title is general and does not summarize the study. I recommend making the title more specific. The current title is better suited for a review as opposed to a research article. This study provides further biophysical details on the interaction. This should be reflected in the title.

      We appreciate this recommendation, which was also expressed by reviewer #2. We have chosen a new title for the manuscript: “On the Role of VP3-PI3P Interaction in Birnavirus Endosomal Membrane Targeting”.

      (2) References 8,9,10 are important but they were not correctly cited in the work, this should be corrected.

      We apologize for this mistake. These citations are identifiable in our revised version of the manuscript. See lines 100-105.

      (3) Flotation experiments and cryo-EM convincingly show that VP3 binds to membranes in a PIP3-dependent manner. However, it would be advisable to include a control for cryo-EM using liposomes that do not contain PIP3 but are incubated with HIS-VP3-FL. This would allow us to rule out any unspecific binding that might not be detected on WB.

      Thanks for the advice, also given by reviewer #2. We confirmed that no gold particles were bound on liposomes PI3P(-) even when incubated with the Ni-NTA reagent alone or pre-incubated with His-2xFYVE of His-VP3 FL. We have incorporated a new panel to Figure 1C showing a representative image of these results. Please, see lines 143-144 in the revised version of the manuscript and see the revised version of Figure 1C.

      (4) It is not clear what is the difference between WB in B and WB in G. Figure 1G seems to show the same experiment as shown in B, is this a repetition? In both cases, plots next to WBs show quantification with bars, do they represent STD or SEM? Legend A mentions significance p>0.01 (**) but the plot shows ***. This should be corrected.

      The Western blot membrane in Figure 1B shows the result of co-flotation assay using His-VP3 FL protein, while the Western blot membrane in Figure 1G (left panel) shows a co-flotation assay using His-VP3 FL protein as a positive control. In another words, in 1B the His-VP3 FL protein is the question while in 1G (left panel) it’s the co-flotation positive control for His-VP3 DCt. The bar plots next to Western blots show quantification, the mean and the STD. Thanks for highlighting this inconsistency. We have now corrected it on the revised version of the manuscript.

      (5) It would be useful to indicate positively charged residues and P2 on the AF2 predicted structure in Fig 1.

      These are indicated in panels A and B of Figure 2.

      (6) Figure 1 legend: Change cryo-fixated liposomes to cryo-fixation or better to "liposomes were vitrified". There is a missing "o" in the cry-fixation in the methods section.

      Thanks for the recommendation. We have modified Figure 1. legend to "liposomes were vitrified" (line 758), and fixed the word cryo-fixation in the methods section (line 512).

      (7) Figure 2B. It is not clear how the punctated phenotype was unbiasedly characterized (Figure 2D). I see no difference in the representative images. Magnified images should be shown. This should be measured as colocalization (Pearson's and Mander's coefficient) with an early endosomal marker Rab5. Perhaps this figure could be consolidated with Figure 3.

      Unfortunately, the lack of clarity in Figure 2D was due to the PDF conversion of the original files. Please, observe the high-quality original image above in response to reviewer #1, where we have additionally included zoomed panels, as also suggested by the other reviewers. For quantification of the co-localization of VP3 and either EGFP-Rab5 orEGFP-2xFYVE, the Manders M2 coefficient was calculated out of approximately 30 cells per construct and experiment and were shown in Figure S3 and Figure 3A, respectively, in our previous version of the manuscript.

      (8) PIP3 antagonist drugs should be used to further substantiate the results. If PIP3 specifically recruits VP3, this interaction should be abolished in the presence of PIP3 drug and VP3 should show a diffused signal.

      We certainly agree with this point. These experiments were performed and the results were reported in (Gimenez et al., 2020). Briefly, in that work, we blocked the synthesis of PI3P in QM7 cells in a stable cell line overexpressing VP3, QM7-VP3, with either the pan-PI3Kinase (PI3K) inhibitor LY294002, or the specific class III PI3K Vps34 inhibitor Vps34-IN1. In Figure 4, we showed that 98% of the cells treated with these inhibitors had the biosensor GFP-2FYVE dissociated from EEs, evidencing the depletion of PI3P in EEs (Figure 4A). In QM7-VP3 cells, we showed that the depletion of PI3P by either inhibitor caused the dissociation of VP3 from EEs and the disaggregation of VP3 puncta toward a cytosolic distribution (Figure 4B). Moreover, since this observation was crucial for our hipothesis, these results were further confirmed with an alternative strategy to deplete PI3P in EEs. We employed a system to inducibly hydrolyze endosomal PI3P through rapamycin-induced recruitment of the PI3P-myotubularin 1 (MTM1) to endosomes in cells expressing MTM1 fused to the FK506 binding protein (FKBP) and the rapamycin-binding domain fused to Rab5, using the fluorescent proteins mCherry-FKBP-MTM1 and iRFP-FRB-Rab5, as described in (Hammond et al., 2014). These results, shown in Figures 5, 6 and 7 in the same manuscript, further reinforced the notion that PI3P mediates and is necessary for the association of VP3 protein with EEs.

      (9) The authors should show the localization of VP3 in IBDV-infected cells and treat cells with PI3P antagonists. The fact that R<sub>200</sub> is not rescued does not necessarily mean that this is because of the failed interaction with PI3P. As the authors wrote in the discussion: VP3 bears multiple essential roles during the viral life cycle (line 305).

      Indeed, after having confirmed that the VP3 lost its localization associated to the endosomes after the treatment of the cells with PI3P antagonists, we demonstrated that depletion of PI3P significantly reduced the production of IBDV progeny. For this aim, we used two approaches, the inhibitor Vps34-IN1 and an siRNA against VPs34. In both cases, we observed a significantly reduced production of IBDV progeny (Figures 9 and 10). Specifically related to the reviewer’s question, the localization of VP3 in IBDV-infected cells and treated with PI3P antagonists was shown and quantified in Figure 9a.

      (10) Could you provide adsorption-free energy profiles and MD simulations also for the R<sub>200</sub> mutant?

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have added a new figure to the supplementary information (Figure S15). Instead of presenting a full free-energy profile for each protein, we focused on the adsorption free energy (i.e., the minimum of the adsorption free-energy profile) for VP3 ΔNt and its mutants, VP3 ΔNt R<sub>200</sub>D and VP3 ΔNt P2 Mut, as a function of salt concentration. The aim was to compare the adsorption free energy of the three proteins and evaluate the effect of electrostatic forces on it, which become increasingly screened at higher salt concentrations. As shown in the referenced figure, reducing the number of positively charged residues from VP3 ΔNt to VP3 ΔNt P2 Mut systematically weakens the protein’s binding to the membrane. This effect is particularly pronounced at lower salt concentrations, underscoring the importance of electrostatic interactions in the adsorption of the negatively charged VP3 onto the anionic membrane.

      (11) Liposome deformations in the presence of VP3 are interesting (Figure 6G), were these also observed in Figure 1C?

      Good question. The liposome deformations in the presence of VP3 shown in Figure 6G were a robust observation since, as mentioned, it was detectable in 36% of the liposomes PI3P(+), while they were completely absent in PI3P(-) liposomes. However, and unfortunately, the same deformations were not detectable in experiments performed using gold particles shown in Figure 1C. In this regard, we think that it might be possible that the procedure of gold particles incubation itself, or even the presence of the gold particles in the images, would somehow “mask” the deformations effect.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the reviewers for their time and the thoughtful reviews on our manuscript. The reviewers brought good points regarding the sample size, and the low exposure in the South Asian cohort owing to their unique cultural and social practices. We recognize these as limitations of the paper and discussed these in the revised version. In the revised manuscript, we have taken the key suggestions by reviewers to 1) better illustrate the analytical flow and statistical methods, in particular, to show which datasets had been used in discovery, validation, and testing of the score – as a main figure in the manuscript and in the graphical abstract; 2) demonstrate there is no possibility of overfitting in our approach using statistical metrics of performance; 3) emphasize the goal was not for discovery (e.g. our own EWAS was not used for deriving the score), but to compare with existing EWASs and contrast the results from the white European and SA populations; 4) and supplement the analysis with previously derived maternal smoking, smoking and air pollution methylation score and to explore additional health outcomes in relation to lung health in newborns. Finally, we would also like to take this opportunity to re-iterate that it was not our objective to derive the most powerful methylation score of smoking nor to demonstrate the causal role of maternal smoking on birth weight via DNAm. We have restructure the manuscript as well as the discussion to clarify this. Please find below a point-by-point response to the comments below.

      Reviewer #1:

      The manuscript could benefit from a more detailed description of methods, especially those used to derive MRS for maternal smoking, which appears to involve overfitting. In particular, the addition of a flow chart would be very helpful to guide the reader through the data and analyses. The FDR correction in the EWAS corresponds to a fairly liberal p-value threshold. 

      We thank the reviewer for these good suggestions. In the revised manuscript, we have provided a flow chart as the new Figure 1, more detailed description of the method (added a subsection “Statistical analysis” under Materials and Methods) as well as metrics including measures of fit indices such as AUC and adjusted R2 for each validation and testing dataset to illustrate there is no danger of overfitting (in new Supplementary Table 5).

      The choice of use FDR was indeed arbitrary as there has been no consensus on what significance threshold, if any, should be used in the context of EWAS. Here we simply followed the convention in previous studies to contrast the top associated signals for their effects between different populations and with reported effect sizes. Throughout the manuscript, we have removed the notion of significant associations and used the phrase “top associated signals” or “top associations” when discussion EWAS results for individual CpGs.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) The number of mothers who self-reported any smoking was very low, much lower than in the general population and practically non-existent in the South Asian population. As a result, all analyses appeared to have been underpowered. It is possibly for this reason that the authors chose to generate their DNA methylation model using previously published summary statistics. The resulting score is not of great value in itself due to the low-powered dataset used to estimate covariance between CpG sites. In fact, a score was generated for a much larger, better-powered dataset several years ago (Reese, EHP, 2017, PMID 27323799). 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the low exposure in the South Asian population, which we believe is complementary to the literature on maternal smoking that almost exclusively focused on white Europeans. However, the score was validating in the white European cohort (CHILD; current smoking 3.1%), which was reasonably similar to the trend that maternal cigarettes smoking is on the decline from 2016 to 2021, from 7.2% to 4.6% (Martin, Osterman, & Driscoll, 2023). This is also consistent with the fact that CHILD participants were recruited from major metropolitans of Canada with relatively high SES and education as compared to FAMILY.

      We do agree with the reviewers that a higher prevalence of maternal smoking in the validating sample could potential improve the power of the score. Our original analytical pipeline focused on CHILD as the validation dataset; FAMILY (see the new Figure 1) was used as the testing data. We alternatively provided an analytical scheme using FAMILY as the validation dataset, as it had a higher proportion of current smokers, however, this is limited by the number of CpGs available (128 in FAMILY vs. 2,619 in CHILD out of the 2,620 CpGs from (Joubert et al., 2016)). The results of all possible combinations of validation vs. testing and restriction of targeted array vs. HM450 are summarized in the new new Supplementary Table 5 and Supplementary Figure 5.

      To clarify, our choice to construct DNAm score using published summary statistics was not an ad-hoc decision due to the observed low power from CHILD EWAS. We agree with the reviewer that our study was indeed underpowered and was not originally intended for EWAS discovery. Thus, we specifically proposed to adopt a multivariate strategy from the literature of polygenic risk scores. This approach enabled us to leverage well-powered association signals without individual-level access to data with a sample size of n > 5,000 (Joubert et al., 2016). In comparison, the Reese maternal smoking score (Reese et al., 2017) had a discovery sample size of only n = 1,057. Our score was not out-performed, in fact, the AUC in both FAMILY (external validating dataset; n=411) and CHILD (external testing dataset; n=352) and was larger than that based on the Reese score as tabulated below (part of the new Supplementary Table 5).

      Author response table 1.

      Further, regarding the comment on the covariance matrix. Indeed, lassosum via elastic-net and summary data requires a reference covariance matrix that is consistent between the discovery data and external validation data. In fact, for moderately sized correlation/covariance values (r2 > 0.1), a sample size of >100 is sufficiently powered to detect it being different from 0 and thus used for estimation. Similar to the linkage disequilibrium of genotype data, the CpGs also exhibit a block-wise correlation structure and thus the theoretical framework of lassosum extends naturally to MRS.

      In the revised manuscript, we included the Reese score, as well as a few additional scores to compare their predictiveness of smoking phenotypes in white European cohorts. We note that the applicability was limited in the FAMILY cohort that was profiled using a targeted array and only 7 out of 28 of the CpGs in the Reese score were available. As a result, though the Reese score had similar performance than our derived score in CHILD (0.94 vs. 0.95), its performance in FAMILY was compromised (0.72 vs. 0.89).

      (2) The conclusion that "even minimal smoking exposure in South Asian mothers who were not active smokers showed a DNAm signature of small body size and low birthweight in newborns" is not warranted because no analyses were performed to show that the association between DNA methylation and birth size/weight was driven by maternal smoking. 

      We thank the reviewer for this subtle point – it was not our intention to suggest there was a causal relationship between DNA methylation and birth size that was mediated by maternal smoking. We meant to suggest that the maternal smoking methylation score was consistently associated with negative outcomes in newborns of both white European and South Asian mothers despite no maternal smoking was present in South Asian mothers. It is possible that maternal smoking MRS was capturing a lot more than just smoking and second-hand smoking, such as other environmental exposures that also lead to oxidative stress. These together are associated with reduced birth size/weight.

      In the revised manuscript, we have modified the conclusion above to:

      “Notably, these results indicate a consistent association between the DNAm signature of maternal smoking and a small body size and low birthweight in newborns, in both white European mothers who exhibited some amount of smoking and in South Asian mothers who themselves were not active smokers.”

      (3) Although it was likely that some mothers were exposed to second-hand smoke and/or pollution, data on this was either non-existent or not included in this study. Including this would have allowed a more novel investigation of the effects of smoke exposure on the pregnancies of non-smoking mothers.

      We agree with this comment – second-hand smoking was captured by self-reported weekly smoking exposure by the mothers. We reported the association with smoking exposure and found that it was not consistently associated with our methylation scores across the cohorts (cohort specific association p-values of 5.4×10-5, 3.4×10-5, and 0.58, for CHILD, FAMILY, and START; original Table 3), possibly due to the low exposure in South Asian population (max weekly exposure was 42 hrs in contrast to 168 hrs in FAMILY and 98 hrs in CHILD). Meanwhile, air pollution data are currently not available. Here we additionally performed the association between maternal smoking and air pollution methylation score, using key CpGs from the largest air pollution EWAS to-date (Gondalia et al., 2021). However, there was no association between the air pollution score and any maternal smoking phenotypes (ps > 0.4).

      (4) One of the European cohorts and half of the South Asian cohort had DNA methylation measured on only 2500 CpG sites. This set of sites included only 125 sites previously linked to prenatal smoking. The resulting model of prenatal smoking was small (only 11 CpG sites). It is possible that a large model may have been more powerful.

      That is correct – also see our response to R2 comment #1. In our previous analysis, we validated two scores (one based on CpGs on the < 3,000 CpGs array and the other one for the full HM450K). The score with more CpGs indeed had slightly better performance. We included this as one of the limitations of the paper. Nevertheless, it does not impact the conclusion that the scores (based on a larger or smaller model) are transferrable to diverse populations and can be used to comparatively study the DNAm influence of maternal smoking in newborns.

      The following was added in the discussion:

      “First, the customized array with a limited number of CpGs (<3,000) was designed in 2016 and many large EWASs on smoking and maternal smoking conducted more recently had not been included.”

      (5) The health outcomes investigated are potentially interesting but there are other possibly more important outcomes of interest such as birth complications, asthma, and intellectual impairment which are known to be associated with prenatal smoking.

      We thank the reviewer for bring up this point. One of the key health outcomes in the CHILD study was asthma, and data at later time points are available. However, we do not have similar outcomes collected in the other two studies (FAMILY and START), which focused on cardiometabolic health in young children. Thus, we did not initially include outcomes that were not available across all cohorts as the intention was to contrast the effects between populations.

      We recognize that this is an important question and decided to provide the association results for asthma and allergy at available time points in CHILD, FAMILY, and START. We also included mode of delivery via emergency C-section as an additional proxy outcome of birth complications. However, none of these were marginally (p < 0.05) associated with the DNAm smoking score. These are now included in the updated Supplementary Table 8.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The number of samples in the South Asian birth cohort given in the abstract (n = 887) does not match the sample size of the START cohort from the results section (results, page 7, line 139, n = 880). It is also different from the final analytical dataset size from the methods section (page 17, line 386, n = 890). Please clarify. 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. In the abstract, it was the final sample sized used for EWAS (no missingness in smoking history). The 880 in result was a typo for 890, which contains three individuals with missing smoking data. These have been updated with the correct sample size for START cohort that had full epigenome-wide methylation data (n = 504, and 503 with non-missing smoking history).

      (2) Page 3, line 54: "consistent signal from the GFI1 gene (ps < 5×10-5)". Is ps a typo? If not then it might be clearer to state how many sites this included. 

      No, these summarized the six CpG sites in the GFI1 gene as outlined in Table 2. We have clarified in the abstract to show the number of CpG sites included.

      (3) Please report effect sizes together with information about the statistical significance (p values). 

      We have updated the manuscript with (standardized) effect sizes whenever possible along with p-values.

      (4) Page 4, line 80. This paragraph could be improved by adding a sentence explaining DNA methylation. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. A sentence was included to introduce DNAm at the beginning of the second paragraph:

      “DNA methylation is one of the most commonly studied epigenetic mechanisms by which cells regulate gene expression, and is increasingly recognized for its potential as a biomarker (13).”

      (5) Page 4, line 84. Sentence difficult to understand, please rephrase: "Our recent systematic review of 17 cord blood epigenome-wide association studies (EWAS) demonstrated that out of the 290 CpG sites reported, 19 sites were identified in more than one study; all of them associated with maternal smoking". 

      We have revised to clarify the review was on cord blood EWAS with five outcomes: maternal diabetes, pre-pregnancy body mass index, diet during pregnancy, smoking, and gestational age.

      “Our recent systematic review of 17 cord blood epigenome-wide association studies (EWAS) found that out of the 290 CpG sites reported to be associated with at least one of the following: maternal diabetes, pre-pregnancy body mass index (BMI), diet during pregnancy, smoking, and gestational age, 19 sites were identified in more than one study and all of them associated with maternal smoking.”

      (6) Page 5, line 93. The second part of the sentence is not necessary: "The majority of cohort studies have focused on participants of European ancestry, but few were designed to assess the influence of maternal exposures on DNA methylation changes in non-Europeans". 

      We have revised accordingly to:

      “Only a handful of cohort studies were designed to assess the influence of maternal exposures on DNA methylation changes in non-Europeans.”

      (7) Page 5, line 95. "It has been suggested that ancestral background could influence both systematic patterns of methylation (27), such as cell composition and smoking behaviours (28)". The sentence is slightly unclear. Could it be rephrased to say that cell composition differences may be present by ancestry, which can lead to differential DNAm patterns? 

      We have revised accordingly to:

      “It has been suggested that systematic patterns of methylation (Elliott et al., 2022), such as cell composition, could differ between individuals of different ancestral backgrounds, which could in turn confound the association between differential DNAm and smoking behaviours (Choquet et al., 2021).”

      (8) Page 5, line 108. How does reducing the number of predictors lead to more interpretable effect sizes? 

      This was meant as a general comment in the context of variable selection, whereby the fewer predictors there are, the effect size of each predictor becomes more interpretable. However, we recognize this comment might be irrelevant to the specific approaches we adopted. We have revised it to motivate methylation score as a powerful instrument for analysis:

      “Reducing the number of predictors and measurement noise in the data can lead to better statistical power and a more parsimonious instrument for subsequent analyses.”

      (9) Page 5, line 112. Health consequences seem a bit strong, given that the analysis describes correlations/associations. 

      We have revised it to “association with”:

      “In this paper, we investigated the epigenetic signature of maternal smoking on cord blood DNA methylation in newborns, as well as its influence on newborn and later life outcomes in one South Asian which refers to people who originate from the Indian subcontinent, and two predominantly European-origin birth cohorts.”

      Results

      (10) It would be very helpful to have a flow diagram to detail all of your analyses.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have provided a flow chart as the new Figure 1, updated the summary of analysis in . Table 3, and added a new Supplementary Table 5 for the DNAm score derivation, as well as more detailed description of the statistical analysis in the Materials and Methods under the subsection “Statistical analysis”.

      (11) Page 7, line 138. Please add a reference to the CHILD study. 

      We have added a reference of the CHILD study.

      (12) Tables in results and in supplemental data a) contain a mixture of fields describing the newborn and its mother (this is not true for Supplementary Table 2), b) lack column descriptions, c) lack descriptions of abbreviations and formatting used in tables, d) use different font types, e) lack descriptions of statistical tests that were used to obtain p-values, f) use inconsistent rounding. Please correct and add the missing information.

      We have consolidated the notation and nomenclature in all Tables and text. All numerical results are now rounded to 2 decimal places. The tests used were included in the Table headers as well as described in the Materials and Methods:

      “For continuous phenotypes, an analysis of variance (ANOVA) using the F-statistics or a two-sample t-test was used to compare the mean difference across the three cohorts or two groups, respectively. For categorical phenotypes, a chi-square test of independence was used to compare the difference in frequencies of observed categories. Note that three of the categories under smoking history in the START cohort had expected cell counts less than 5, and was thus excluded from the comparison, the reported p-value was for CHILD and FAMILY.”

      (13) Table 1. Sample sizes given in column descriptions do not add up to 1,650 (legend text).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The updated sample size is 1,267, based on the 352 CHILD samples, 411 FAMILY samples, and 352 START samples. Notice that we did not remove those without full smoking history data as Table 1 was intended for the epigenetic subsamples.

      (14) Page 7, line 156. Supplementary Tables are incorrectly numbered. In the text, Supplementary Table 4 comes after Supplementary Table 2.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this and have corrected the ordering of the Supplementary Tables and Figures. 

      (15) Page 7, line 158. "cell compositions" - do you mean estimated white cell proportions? 

      We have revised it to “estimated cord blood cell proportions” in the text throughout.

      (16) Smoking EWAS - do you see any overlap/directional consistency with the top findings from adult EWASs of smoking such as AHRR? 

      We annotated the top EWAS signals from the literature in the meta-analysis (new Figure 2; Supplementary Figures 1 and 3), but was only able to confirm associations in the GFI1 gene. The AHRR signals were also annotated, but below the FDR correction threshold as seen in new Figure 2 at the start of chromosome 5. We further added a new Supplementary Figure 3 to show the directional consistency with top findings (2,620 CpGs reported and 128 CpGs overlapped with our meta-analysis) from Joubert et al., 2016. The Pearson’s correlation coefficient with meta-analyzed effect for maternal smoking was 0.72 and for smoking exposure was 0.60.

      We added the following to Results:

      “Further, we observed consistency in the direction of association for the 128 CpGs that overlapped between our meta-analysis and the 2,620 CpGs with evidence of association for maternal smoking (19) (Supplementary Figure 3). Specifically, the Pearson’s correlation coefficient for maternal smoking and weekly smoking exposure was 0.72 and 0.60, respectively.”

      (17) Page 8, line 169. "also coincided with the GFI1 gene" this is a bit imprecise. Please report the correlation with the CpG from the maternal smoking analysis. 

      The CpG was inside the GFI1 gene, we have included the Pearson’s correlation with the top hit in the text below:

      “There were no CpGs associated with the ever-smoker status at an FDR of 0.05, though the top signal (cg09935388) was also mapped to the GFI1 gene (Pearson’s r2 correlation with cg12876356 = 0.75 and 0.68 in CHILD and FAMILY, respectively; Supplementary Figure 1).”

      (18) Page 8, line 171. Typo "ccg": "ccg01798813". 

      It has been corrected to “cpg01798813”.

      (19) Page 8, line 176. Please be clear about the phenotype used in these analyses. 

      The EWAS of weekly smoking exposure in START was removed in this version of the manuscript, in reflection of the results and the reviewer’s comments, as a result of this phenotyping being skewed and possibly leading to only spurious results (also see response to comment #20).

      We have clarified the phenotypes for these results under “Epigenetic Association of Maternal Smoking in White Europeans” below:

      “The maternal smoking and smoking exposure EWASs in CHILD did not yield any CpGs after FDR correction (Supplementary Figure 3).”

      (20) What was the genomic inflation for the EWASs? 474 loci in the South Asian EWAS seems like a lot of findings. Perhaps a more robust method (e.g., OSCA MOMENT) might help to control the false positive rate. 

      The genomic inflation factor was moderately across the cohorts for smoking exposure: 1.02 in CHILD, 0.94 in FAMILY, and 1.00 in START. However, there was more inflation in the tail of the distribution in START than the European cohorts. The empirical type I error rates at 0.01, 0.001, 0.00001, were high in START (x1.7, x5.7, and x165 times at each respective threshold), in contrast to CHILD (x1.06, x1.05, and x0.6) or FAMILY (x1.6, x1.9, and 0). The smoking exposure EWAS based on START was thus removed as these are likely false positives and there was very low smoking exposure to start with (11 reported weekly exposure between 2–42 hrs/week out of 462 with non-missing data). We have added the QQ-plots as well as the genomic inflation factor for the reported meta-analysis in the new Supplementary Figure 2. The following was added to the Results:

      “There was no noticeable inflation of empirical type I error in the association p-values from the meta-analysis, with the median of the observed association test statistic roughly equal to the expected median (Supplementary Figure 2).”

      (21) What is the targeted array? I don't think it has been introduced prior to this point. 

      We introduced it in the Materials and Methods under subsection “Methylation data processing and quality controls”. Considering this comment and previous comments on the ordering of Tables and Figures, we have decided to place Materials and Methods after Introduction and before Results.

      (22) The MRS section is described poorly in the results section. It is not clear where the 11 or 114 CpGs come from.

      We now include an analytical summary of all scores (derived or external from literature) in the new Supplementary Table 5. Further, we updated the description of scores in Materials and Methods under the subsection “Using DNA Methylation to Construct Predictive Models for Maternal Smoking” to clarify the source and types of MRSs derived:

      “To evaluate whether the targeted GMEL-EPIC array design has comparable performance as the epigenome-wide array to evaluate the epigenetic signature of maternal smoking, a total of three MRSs were constructed, two using the 128 CpGs available in all cohorts – across the HM450K and targeted GMEL-EPIC arrays – and with either CHILD (n = 347 with non-missing smoking history) or FAMILY (n = 397) as the validation cohort, and another using 2,107 CpGs that were only available in CHILD and START samples with CHILD as the validation cohort. Henceforth, we referred to these derived maternal smoking scores as the FAMILY targeted MRS, CHILD targeted MRS, and the HM450K MRS, respectively.”

      (23) Page 9, line 187. "There was no statistically significant difference between the two scores in all samples (p = 1.00) or among non-smokers (p = 0.24).". How was the significance assessed? Please describe the models (outcome, covariates, model type) used for comparing the two models. It would also be good to report the correlation between the scores.

      We have added a subsection “Statistical analysis” under Materials and Methods that described the tests. The correlation between scores is now summarized as a heatmap across all cohorts in the new Supplementary Figure 6.

      “For each cohort, we contrasted the three versions of the derived scores using an analysis of variance analysis (ANOVA) along with pairwise comparisons using a two-sample t-test to examine how much information might be lost due to the exclusion of more than 10-fold CpGs at the validation stage. We also examined the correlation structure between all derived and external MRSs using a heatmap summarizing their pairwise Pearson’s correlation coefficient.”

      (24) Please include the number of samples in the training/validation and in the test set in the methods and in the results.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have provided a flow chart as the new Figure 1 and more detailed description of the method in the Materials and Methods. Please also see response to comment #22. The training sample size is based on Joubert et al., (2016), which is 5,647. For our main analyses, the validation sample with non-missing phenotypes remained the CHILD cohort (n=347), while the FAMILY (n=397) and START (n=503) samples were the independent testing data. We alternatively provided another scenario, in which the FAMILY sample was the validation cohort, while CHILD and START were the testing cohorts. The exact sample size and performance metrics for each scenario and score are clearly summarized in the new Supplementary Table 5.

      (25) Table 3. Please clarify the type of information contained in the four last columns (p-value?).

      Yes – these are the individual cohort p-values. We have taken the suggestion from comment #12 to fully describe all columns and fields.

      (26) Page 10, line 215: "The meta-analysis revealed no heterogeneity in the direction nor the effect size of associations between populations". Please quote/refer to the results. 

      In the revision, the heterogeneity p-values were quoted and the relevant tables (Supplementary Table 8) were added to this sentence.

      (27) Figure 2 has issues with x labels. Due to the low number of ever smokers in START, the boxplot may not be the best visualisation method. It would also benefit from listing n's per group.

      We appreciate this comment to improve the figure presentation. We increased the font size for the X-labels. The sample size for each group in START was also labeled in the new Figure 3 (previously Figure 2).

      Discussion

      (28) Studying the association between maternal smoking and cord blood DNAm is interesting from a biological perspective as it allows for assessing the immediate and long-term effects of maternal smoking on newborn health. However, in terms of calculating the MRS, what are the benefits of using cord blood over the mother's blood? We know that blood-based DNAm smoking score is a powerful predictor of long-term smoking status. 

      The reviewer raises an interesting point – abundant literature supports that DNAm changes are tissue-specific. While mother’s blood DNAm smoking score reflect the long-term exposure to smoking in mothers, the cord blood DNAm captures the consequence of such long-term exposure for newborn health. One of the key results of our study is showing that established DNAm signatures of maternal smoking, which is known to mediate birth size and weight in white Europeans (these references were cited in the original manuscript), carries the same effect of reducing birth weight and size in the South Asian population. This is a critical finding from a DoHaD and public health perspective, as DNAm signatures of maternal smoking, irrespective of the smoking status of the mother, can influence the health trajectory of the newborns.

      We have expanded our discussion based on this suggestion to highlight the unique features of studying maternal smoking via different tissues and their implications. The following was added to the discussion:

      “There are several advantages of using a cord blood based biomarker from the DoHaD perspective. Firstly, cord blood provides a direct reflection of the in utero environment and fetal exposure to maternal smoking. Additionally, since cord blood is collected at birth, it eliminates potential confounding factors such as postnatal exposures that may affect maternal blood samples. Furthermore, studying cord blood DNAm allows for the assessment of epigenetic changes specifically relevant to the newborn, offering valuable information on the potential long-term health implications.”

      (29) Page 13, line 285: "Fourth" without "third".

      It has been revised accordingly.

      Methods 

      (30) The methods section does not contain all the details required to replicate the analysis. Whenever statistical analysis is conducted, this section should clearly describe the type of the analysis (linear regression, t-test, etc.) and name the dependent and independent variables. Sample sizes should also be given. 

      We added further details of test used and sample size for each analysis. We have also included a new “Statistical analysis” subsection under Materials and Methods.

      (31) Please describe MRS testing in the methods.

      We tested MRS with respect to binary and continuous smoking phenotypes using a logistic and linear regression, respectively. The predictive value was assessed using area under the roc curve for the binary outcome and an adjusted R2 for the continuous outcome. These were added to the new “Statistical analysis” subsection under Materials and Methods. See response to comments #22-24, and #30.

      (32) Please describe the methods used to compare the two versions of MRS for maternal

      smoking.

      It was a two-sample t-test, which was described in the Figure legends. We have now added this to the new “Statistical analysis” subsection under Materials and Methods.

      (33) Please describe testing the associations between MRS and Offspring Anthropometrics in more detail.

      We added further details on the regression model and the test for association in the methods. We have now added this to the new “Statistical analysis” subsection under Materials and Methods.

      (34) Meta analysing the 450k and GMEL arrays is going to substantially reduce the number of CpGs under investigation.

      We agree with the reviewer that this is not optimal for signal discovery. However, this is the only way we could synthesize evidence across the cohorts as FAMILY samples were only processed using the customized array. We added the following as a limitation of the study in the discussion.

      “First, the customized array with a limited number of CpGs (<3,000) was designed in 2016 and many large EWASs on smoking and maternal smoking conducted more recently had not been included.”

      (35) Page 16, line 364: GDM abbreviation was used in the results section (line 145), yet it is introduced in line 364. 

      Thank you for catching this, we have removed the duplicate.

      (36) Page 17, line 381: Given the stated importance of ancestry, why not restrict the sample to genetically confirmed groups?

      The reviewer has a valid point that ancestry, either perceived or genetic, can introduce additional heterogeneity due to potential differences in genetics, cultural and social practices, and lifestyles. Genetic data are indeed available for a subset of the individuals. In the original version of the manuscript, we used a stringent ancestry calling method by mapping all individuals with the 1000 Genomes samples from continental populations. The final definition was based on a combination of self-reported and genetically confirmed ancestry. However, if we restricted only to genetically confirmed groups, the sample size would be reduced to 312 (vs. 411), 268 (vs. 352), and 488 (vs. 504) in FAMILY, CHILD, and START, respectively.

      We compared the mean difference in the beta-values of the top associated CpGs and the derived MRS between those genetically confirmed vs. self-reported ancestral groups, and observed no material difference. These results are now included in the Supplementary Materials as part of the sensitivity analysis. Thus, given these considerations, we decided to use this complementary approach to retain the maximum number of samples while ensuring some aspect of ancestral homogeneity.

      “To maximize sample size in FAMILY and CHILD, we retained either self-identified or genetically confirmed Europeans based on available genetic data (Supplementary Table 1).”

      (37) Page 18, line 397: sensitivity analysis not sensitive analysis.

      Thank you for catching this, we have revised accordingly.

      (38) Page 18, line 409: smoking was rank transformed however, it would be good to see regression diagnostics for the lead loci in the EWAS to check that assumptions were met. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Smoking exposure is indeed skewed and in fact very much zero-inflated across the cohorts. The raw phenotype violated several model assumptions in terms of variance heteroskedasticity, outlying values (influential points), and linearity. The diagnostics suggested improved deviation from model assumption, yet some aspects of the violation remained at a lesser degree. We included a comparison of results before and after transformation and model diagnostics for the lead CpG using CHILD and FAMILY data in the Supplementary Materials. The following was added to the results:

      “As a sensitivity analysis, we repeated the analysis for the continuous smoking exposure under rank transformation vs. raw phenotype for the associated CpG in GFI1 and examined the regression diagnostics (Supplementary Material), and found that the model under rank-transformation deviated less from assumptions.”

      (39) Page 19, line 418: FDR seems quite a lenient threshold, especially when genome-wide significance thresholds exist. I would be inclined to view the EWAS findings as null.

      The choice of use FDR to was indeed arbitrary as there has been no consensus on what significance threshold, if any, should be used in the context of EWAS. The significance threshold for GWAS (Pe’er et al., 2008) probably does not apply directly to EWAS as the number of effective tests will likely differ between genome-wide genetic variants and CpGs. The Bonferroni corrected p-value threshold in this context would be 0.05/200,050=2.5´10-7, which is still less stringent than the GWAS significance threshold. We originally decided to follow the convention of previous studies and use FDR to filter out a subset of plausible associations to contrast the top association signals for their effects between different populations and with reported effect sizes.

      We have revised the manuscript throughout by removing the notion of significant associations, and instead used the phrase “top associated signals” or “top associations” when discussion EWAS results for individual CpGs. The following was added to Materials and Methods to clarify the choice of our threshold:

      “For each EWAS or meta-analysis, the false discovery rate (FDR) adjustment was used to control multiple testing and we considered CpGs that passed an FDR-adjusted p-value < 0.05 to be relevant for maternal smoking.”

      (40) I do not understand Supplementary Figure 6 - how have the data been standardised? Why not plot the CpGs on the beta-value scale?

      The standardized values were plotted as the reported p-values for the mean and variance equality tests (i.e. ANOVA F-test, Levene’s test, Anderson-Darling test) were based on these transformed values to reduce inflation due to non-normality. We have since removed this comparison and kept only the comparison of the overall score as the number of CpGs in the HM450k score (143 CpGs) for comparison is too high to be visually interpretable.

      (41) It is my understanding, that the MRS for maternal smoking was constructed using external weights projected and regularised using elastic net (effectively trained) in CHILD cohort. The results section discusses associations between maternal smoking history and outcomes in CHILD, FAMILY, and START. Training and testing the score in the same sample (cohort) may result in overfitting and therefore should not be implemented.

      The original MRS was constructed using external weights from an independent discovery sample (Joubert et al., 2016; n > 5,000) and the LASSO validation was done in CHILD (n = 352), external testing was in FAMILY and START. This was the lassosum framework whereby we leverage larger sample size from external studies to select more plausible CpGs as candidates to include in the model. Thus, training, validation, and testing were not done in the same samples. We have included a Figure 1 to illustrate the updated analytical flow and a graphical abstract to summarize the methods.

      (42) Is it a concern that the findings don't seem to replicate Joubert's results, which came from a much larger study?

      Replication is usually done in samples much larger than the discovery samples, thus it is not a concern that we were unable to confirm all signals from Joubert et al., (2016). However, 6/7 of the top associations (FDR adjusted p-value < 0.05) in the meta-analysis were declared as significant in Joubert et al. (2016). In addition, the fact that using Joubert’s summary statistics, we were able to derive MRSs that were strongly associated with both smoking history and weekly exposure suggests shared signals. Also see response to  R1 comment #16 for a comparison of effect consistency.

      (43) Please check that all analysis scripts have been uploaded to Github and that the EWAS results are publicly available.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. All updated scripts and EWAS results are available on Github. We are working to have the results also submitted to EWAS catalog.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The impact of this study is reduced due to previous findings:

      (1) Previous studies have already shown that DNA methylation may mediate the effect of maternal smoking on birth size/weight (see e.g.https://doi.org/10.1098/rstb.2018.0120https://doi.org/10.1093/ije/dyv048).

      We thank the reviewer for this point and would like to take the opportunity to clarify that it was not our objective to examine whether there was a causal relationship, between DNA methylation and birth size that was mediated by maternal smoking. One of the key messages of our study is to evaluate whether epigenetic associations – at individual CpGs and aggregated as a score – are consistent between white European and South Asian populations. One way to examine this is through using established DNAm signatures of maternal smoking, which is known to mediate birth size and weight in white Europeans (these references were cited in the original manuscript), and confirm whether they also carry the same effect on birth outcomes in the South Asian population.

      Indeed, our results support that maternal smoking methylation score was consistently associated with negative outcomes in newborns of both white European and South Asian mothers despite no maternal smoking was present in South Asian mothers. These collective point to the possibility that the maternal smoking MRS was capturing a lot more than just smoking and second-hand smoking, but potentially other environmental exposures that also lead to oxidative stress. These together are associated with health consequences, including reduced birth size/weight. One of the candidates for such exposure is air pollution as some of the maternal smoking CpGs were previously linked to air pollution. However, we were unable to assess this hypothesis directly without the air pollution data, and the air pollution methylation score was not associated with smoking history (Supplementary Figure 5) nor smoking exposure (p > 0.4 in CHILD, FAMILY and START).

      The following was added to Materials and Methods under the subsection Using DNA Methylation to Construct Predictive Models for Maternal Smoking:

      “To benchmark and compare with existing maternal smoking MRSs, we calculated the Reese score using 28 CpGs (48,49),  Richmond score using 568 CpGs (49), Rauschert score using 204 CpGs (50), Joubert score using all 2,620 CpGs with evidence of association for maternal smoking (19), and finally a three-CpG score for air pollution (51). The details of these scores and score weight can be found in Supplementary Table 4.”

      The following was added to Results

      “Both produced methylation scores that were significantly associated with maternal smoking history (ANOVA F-test p-values =1.0×10-6 and 2.4×10-14 in CHILD and  6.9×10-16 and <2.2×10-16 in FAMILY), and the best among alternative scores for CHILD and FAMILY (Supplementary Table 5). With the exception of the air pollution MRS, all remaining scores were marginally associated with smoking history in both CHILD and FAMILY (Supplementary Figure 5).”

      (2) Due to the small study size and low levels of prenatal smoke exposure, the model derived here is of little value and is, in fact, superseded by a previously published model (PMID: 27323799). At the very least, the model should be evaluated here. A novel aspect of this study is the inclusion of a South Asian cohort. Unfortunately, smoke exposure is practically non-existent, so it is unclear how it can be used. The more interesting finding in this study is the possibility that environmental factors such as second-hand smoke or pollution may have similar effects on pregnancies as maternal smoking. Are these available? If so, they could be evaluated for associations with DNA methylation. This would be novel. 

      In the revised manuscript, we included the Reese score (Reese et al., 2017) and a few other maternal smoking scores for comparison. In the CHILD cohort, the performance was comparable to our derived score (AUC of 0.95 vs. 0.94 for Reese score), but its applicability was limited since the FAMILY dataset was profiled using a targeted array and only 7 out of 28 of the CpGs in the Reese score were available (AUC of 0.89 vs. 0.72 for Reese). As compared to the remaining scores from literature (see the new Supplementary Table 5 for complete results), Reese’s score has generally favorable performance.

      We did examine second-hand smoking in the original manuscript, showing a significant association with weekly maternal smoking exposure (original Table 3 and Supplementary Table 8). However, air pollution data is not available for assessment.

      (3) The other novel aspect is the evaluation of associations with outcomes later in life. Height and weight are interesting but impact could be gained by including other relevant outcomes such as birth complications, asthma, and intellectual impairment which are known to be associated with prenatal smoking. 

      We thank the reviewer for bring up this point. One of the key health outcomes in the CHILD study was asthma, and data at later time points are available. However, we do not have similar outcomes collected in the other two studies (FAMILY and START), which focused on cardiometabolic health in young children. Thus, we did not initially include outcomes that were not available across all cohorts as the intention was to contrast the effects between populations.

      We recognize that this is an important question and decided to provide the association results for mother reported asthma and allergy, but based on different definitions as these outcomes cannot be harmonized across the cohorts. We also included mode of delivery via emergency C-section as an additional proxy outcome of birth complication.

      The following was added to Materials and Methods:

      “Mode of delivery (emergency c-section vs. other) was collected at the time of delivery.”

      “Additional phenotypes included smoking exposures (hours per week) at home, potential allergy based on mother reporting any of: eczema, hay fever, wheeze, asthma, food allergy (egg, cow milk, soy, other) for her child in FAMILY and START, and asthma based on mother’s opinion in CHILD (“In your opinion, does the child have any of the following? Asthma”).”

      The following was added to Results:

      “The maternal smoking MRS was consistently associated with increasing weekly smoking exposure in children reported by mothers at the 1-year (0.51±0.15, FDR adjusted p= 0.0052) , 3-year (0.53±0.16, FDR adjusted p= 0.0052), and 5-year (0.40±0.15, FDR adjusted p= 0.021) visits with similar effects.”

      “We did not find any association with self-reported allergy or asthma in children at later visits (Supplementary Table 8). Further, there was no evidence of association between the MRS and any maternal outcomes (Supplementary Table 8).”

      REFERENCES:

      Gondalia, R., Baldassari, A., Holliday, K. M., Justice, A. E., Stewart, J. D., Liao, D., . . . Whitsel, E. A. (2021). Epigenetically mediated electrocardiographic manifestations of sub-chronic exposures to ambient particulate matter air pollution in the Women's Health Initiative and Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities Study. Environ Res, 198, 111211. doi:10.1016/j.envres.2021.111211

      Joubert, B. R., Felix, J. F., Yousefi, P., Bakulski, K. M., Just, A. C., Breton, C., . . . London, S. J. (2016). DNA Methylation in Newborns and Maternal Smoking in Pregnancy: Genome-wide Consortium Meta-analysis. Am J Hum Genet, 98(4), 680-696. doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2016.02.019

      Martin, J. A., Osterman, M. J. K., & Driscoll, A. K. (2023). Declines in Cigarette Smoking During Pregnancy in the United States, 2016-2021. NCHS Data Brief(458), 1-8. Retrieved from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/36723453

      Reese, S. E., Zhao, S., Wu, M. C., Joubert, B. R., Parr, C. L., Haberg, S. E., . . . London, S. J. (2017). DNA Methylation Score as a Biomarker in Newborns for Sustained Maternal Smoking during Pregnancy. Environ Health Perspect, 125(4), 760-766. doi:10.1289/EHP333

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The individual roles of both cosolvents and intrinsically disordered proteins (IDPs) in desiccation have been well established, but few studies have tried to elucidate how these two factors may contribute synergistically. The authors quantify the synergy for the model and true IDPs involved with desiccation and find that only the true IDPs have strong desiccation tolerance and synergy with cosolvents. Using these as model systems, they quantify the local (secondary structure vis-a-vi CD spectroscopy) and global dimensions (vis-a-vi the Rg of SAXS experiments) and find no obvious changes with the co-solvents. Instead, they focus on the gelation of one of the IDPs and, using theory and experiments, suggest that the co-solvents may enable desiccation tolerance, an interesting hypothesis to guide future in vivo desiccation studies. A few minor points that remain unclear to this reviewer are noted.

      Strengths:

      This paper is quite extensive and has significant strengths worth highlighting. Notably, the number and type of methods employed to study IDPs are quite unusual, employing CD spectroscopy, SAXS measurements, and DSC. The use of the TFE is an exciting integration of the physical chemistry of cosolvents into the desiccation field is a nice approach and a clever way of addressing the gap of the lack of conformational changes depending on the cosolvents. Furthermore, I think this is a major point and strength of the paper; the underlying synergy of cosolvents and IDPs may lie in the thermodynamics of the dehydration process.

      Figure S6A is very useful. I encourage readers who are confused about the DSC analysis, interpretation, and calculation to refer to it.

      Weaknesses:

      Overall, the paper is sound and employs strong experimental design and analysis. However, I wish to point out a few minor weaknesses.

      Perhaps the largest, in terms of reader comprehension, focuses on the transition between the model peptides and real IDPs in Figures 1 and 2. Notably, little is discussed with respect to the structure of the IDPs and what is known. Notably, I was confused to find out when looking at Table 1 that many of the IDPs are predicted to be largely unordered, which seemed to contrast with some of the CD spectroscopy data. I wonder if the disorder plots are misleading for readers. Can the authors comment more on this confusion? What are these IDPs structurally?

      We apologize for the confusion caused here and thank the reviewer for this astute observation. Our CD spectroscopy data suggests all LEA proteins are almost entirely disordered under aqueous conditions, with a single major minimum at 200 nm, although most have a small inflection around 220 nm, indicating a small proportion of helicity (Fig. 3A). The notable exception here is CAHS D, which – in line with our work and the work of many others – possesses a substantial degree of transient helicity in the linker region (residues 100-200), giving rise to a more pronounced minimum at 220 nm. These conclusions are consistent with our SAXS data (Fig. 4), which predict a radius of gyration far larger than a globular folded protein of the same number of residues should have (15-20 Å). The structural predictions (both Metapredict and AlphaFold2), however, imply several of the proteins to be ordered; AvLEA1C and HeLEA68614 are both predicted to have large folded regions based on metapredict disorder scores. We believe this is an erroneous prediction driven by these regions' propensity to acquire helicity in the context of desiccation (Fig 3B) and/or when interacting with clients. As such, our computational analysis is at odds with the experimental data because these proteins are all poised to undergo a coil-to-helix transition, an effect our parallel work has proposed is important for their function (see Biswas et al. Prot. Sci. 2024). The ability of AlphaFold2 to predict bound-state or transient helices has been previously documented (Alderson et al PNAS 2023)

      To address this discrepancy, the caption for Table 1 reads: “We note that the reason many of these profiles contain large folded regions is because the amphipathic LEA and CAHS proteins are predicted to form helices, which metapredict infers and incorrectly highlights these regions as ‘folded’ when really they are disordered in isolation”. We have also added additional context and information to the caption for Fig. S9 “We note that the structural predictions from AlphaFold2 contain largely ordered structures. We believe this is due to the propensity of these proteins to form helices in the context of drying or when interacting with a client. This has been shown in cases where an IDR contains residual helicity or is folded upon binding [70].”

      Related to the above thoughts, the alpha fold structures for the LEA proteins are predicted (unconfidently) as being alpha-helical in contrast to the CD data. Does this complicate the TFE studies and eliminate the correlation for the LEA proteins?

      AlphaFold2 predicted helicity in disordered regions is commonly observed, and thought to indicate a possible “bound” helical state (Alderson et al. PNAS 2023). As shown by the CD data, in aqueous conditions no secondary structure exists. It is only in the desiccated state - the path to which requires proteins to reach excessively high concentrations - that this secondary structure appears. Underlying our TFE model is that the AlphaFold2 predicted secondary structure is indicative of the state the proteins are in at high abundance, which occurs as cells ramp up protectant expression and as water is removed from the system. Under these assumptions, the CD data is in agreement with the AlphaFold2 predictions, and our analysis holds. This is explained in the methods under “Transfer Free Energy (TFE) Calculations” - but we have now also added an additional sentence to this effect in the main text: “Using a similar AlphaFold2-based approach for LEA proteins and for BSA, we can make correlations between the Gtr of the disorder-to-order transition and synergy (Fig. S8F-K). Interestingly, AlphaFold2 predictions of our LEA proteins were broadly helical, which is in contrast to our experimental characterization of these proteins in aqueous solutions. However, this is not unusual for AlphaFold2 predictions and could possibly represent a “bound” conformation for the proteins [70].”

      Additionally, the notation that the LEA and BSA proteins do not correlate is unclear to this reviewer, aren't many of the correlations significant, having both a large R^2 and significant p-value?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. While BSA and some LEA proteins have values that correlate with synergy, there’s more to consider in assessing the relevance of these correlations. For example, we cannot claim that the value is physiologically relevant without observing an actual structural change in the protein. Furthermore, several of these proteins (BSA and AvLEA1C) were found to be not significantly synergistic in the LDH assay, and any correlation should, therefore, also be considered non-significant. We have added a sentence to the results to clarify this: “For a subset of these proteins, we see a statistically significant correlation between G and synergy. However, this data is purely computational. For CAHS D, we saw our predictions recapitulated in changes in the protein structure, and for the LEA proteins we do not. Thus, we conclude that cosolutes do not induce synergy in our LEA proteins through a change in folding.”

      The calculation of synergy seems too simplistic or even problematic to me. While I am not familiar with the standards in the desiccation field, I think the approach as presented may be problematic due to the potential for higher initial values of protection to have lower synergies (two 50%s for example, could not yield higher than 100%).

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern about our synergy calculation. We would like to highlight the use of sub-optimal protective concentrations in our synergy assays similar to studies previously reported in the desiccation field (Nguyen et al. 2022; Kim et al. 2018).

      As the reviewer pointed out, we agree that there is a theoretical 100% threshold in our experiments which if we hit, we cannot distinguish between individual additive vs synergistic effects. To avoid the situation of reaching the near maximal protection levels (~100%), we intentionally select a sub-optimal concentration of the protectants that are below the maximum efficacy level for individual protectants to use in our assays. This limits the potential for initial higher values of the protectants so that their combined effect is not maximized, and there is always the potential for synergy. We would also like to point out that we never actually hit that 100% threshold in any of our synergy experiments, which warrants that any observed increase in protection is attributed to a true synergistic effect between the protectants.

      Instead, I would think one would need to really think of it as an apparent equilibrium constant between functional and non-functional LDH (Kapp = [Func]/[Not Func] and frac = Kapp/(1+Kapp) or Kapp = frac/(1-frac) ) Then after getting the apparent equilibrium constants for the IDP and cosolvent (KappIDP and KappCS), the expected additive effect would be frac = (KappIDP+KappCS)/(1+KappIDP+KappCS).

      Consequently, the extent of synergy could be instead calculated as KappBOTH-KappIDP-KappCS. Maybe this reviewer is misunderstanding. It is recommended that the authors clarify why the synergy calculation in the manuscript is reasonable.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. In the desiccation field, the synergy calculations that we used is the standard method that people use, so that’s what we present in our main manuscript. However, we have now quantified synergy through two new approaches: one, as suggested by the reviewer, using the equilibrium constant (Kapp) as a metric, and the other using the Bliss Independent model, which is a common approach for calculating synergy in drug combination studies. We see minimal differences in terms of the synergy scores using these different methods. We have included the results for these additional methods in supplemental figure S3.

      Related to the above, the authors should discuss the utility of using molar concentration instead of volume fraction or mass concentration. Notably, when trehalose is used in concentration, the volume fraction of trehalose is much smaller compared to the IDPs used in Figure 2 or some in Figure 1. Would switching to a different weighted unit impact the results of the study, or is it robust to such (potentially) arbitrary units?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Indeed, in studies of cosolute effect, concentration units can alter the conclusions of the study (Auton and Bolen 2004). In our case, the relevant figures where we use a concentration scale (1B and 2B) are not germane to the main conclusions: The only use of these PD50 values is to determine a sub-optimal concentration at which ~30% of the LDH is protected. While it is true that the number for the concentration of e.g., trehalose will be dramatically different if we were to use mass fraction units, the rest of the work and all our conclusions would be exactly the same.

      Additionally, our use of a molar ratio when discussing synergy is a direct result of the way we think about such synergy: Since the concentration of both protein and cosolute can change by orders of magnitude during drying, it is the copy numbers of both proteins and cosolute that are conserved in this process, and it is this unit that we think is important to the protective effect (rather than the partial molar volume, for example, which would be changing as the system dries).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The paper aims to investigate the synergies between desiccation chaperones and small molecule cosolutes, and describe its mechanistic basis. The paper reports that IDP chaperones have stronger synergies with the cosolutes they coexist with, and in one case suggests that this is related to oligomerization propensity of the IDP.

      Strengths:

      The study uses a lot of orthogonal methods and the experiments are technically well done. They are addressing a new question that has not really been addressed previously.

      Weaknesses:

      The conclusions are based on a few examples and only partial correlations. While the data support mechanistic conclusions about the individual proteins studied, it is not clear that the conclusions can be generalized to the extent proposed by the authors due to small effect sizes, small numbers of proteins, and only partial correlations.

      Thank you for bringing this up. We agree that we should not generalize our results to other systems based on the evidence we have for the proteins used in our study. We have altered our discussion to highlight that this may apply to other IDPs, and that future experiments must be done to support this: “Additionally, we want to point out that our results cannot necessarily be generalized to all desiccation-related IDPs. More experiments will be needed to assess the relevance of cosolute effects to functional synergy and IDP folding in the context of desiccation and beyond. This remains an important future direction for the field.”

      The authors pose relevant questions and try to answer them through a systematic series of experiments that are all technically well-conducted. The data points are generally interpreted appropriately in isolation, however, I am a little concerned about a tendency to over-generalize their findings. Many of the experiments give negative or non-conclusive results (not a problem in itself), which means that the overall storyline is often based on single examples.

      We agree with the reviewer’s point. As mentioned earlier, we have modified our manuscript to reflect that our findings are based on the six proteins that we studied, and we can only speculate about other desiccation-related IDPs based on our results.

      For example, the central conclusion that IDPs interact synergistically with their endogenous co-solute (Figure 2E) is largely driven by one outlier from Arabidopsis. The rest are relatively close to the diagonal, and one could equally well suggest that the cosolutes affect the IDPs equally (which is also the conclusion in 1F).

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern regarding our conclusion in Figures 2E and 1F. We would like to highlight that our conclusions that IDPs interact synergistically with their endogenous cosolute are based on statistical analysis. Our data shows that full-length proteins that were synergistic with both cosolutes are always significantly more synergistic with the endogenous cosolute (Fig. 2E, Fig. S2C-E). For example, the nematode protein is synergistic with both trehalose and sucrose, but is significantly more synergistic with trehalose, the endogenous nematode cosolute, than with sucrose (Fig S2D).

      This is not the case in 1F. In Fig. 1F, it is to note that not only are the points close to the diagonal, but most points are close to zero along both axes indicating no synergy. In fact, many points have negative synergy (antagonistic effect).

      We do recognize that our conclusions are based on the study of a specific set of six IDPs, and we do not want to overreach in our conclusions. To acknowledge this, we have now added text to emphasize that our conclusion is based on the six proteins that we tested, and we speculate it might apply to other systems: “Our data shows that these six IDPs synergize best with their endogenous cosolute to promote desiccation tolerance and we speculate that this may apply to other desiccation-related IDPs”.

      Similarly, the mechanistic explanations tend to be based on single examples. This is somewhat unavoidable as biophysical studies cannot be done on thousands of proteins, but the text should be toned down to reflect the strength of the conclusions.

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern. We have modified our manuscript accordingly to reflect that the mechanistic insights we gained are for the six proteins we tested empirically. These changes can be found throughout the manuscript. None of our experiments rule out the possibility that other LEA proteins or CAHS proteins may show different structural transitions, or that other IDPs may take on structural changes in response to the cosolutes.

      The central hypothesis revolves around the interplay between cosolutes and IDP chaperones comparing chaperones from species with different complements of cosolutes. In Table 1, it is mentioned that Arabidopsis uses both trehalose and sucrose as a cosolute, yet experiments are only done with either of these cosolutes and Arabidopsis is counted in the sucrose column. While it makes sense to compare them separately from a biophysical point of view, the ability to test the co-evolution of these systems is somewhat diminished by this. At least it should be discussed clearly.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. As is mentioned in Table 1, Arabidopsis uses both trehalose and sucrose as cosolute. As such, we would predict that the Arabidopsis proteins would respond positively to both cosolutes. We would like to point out that Arabidopsis is counted in both trehalose and sucrose columns.

      We would also like to emphasize that multiple osmolytes exist in all organisms as a desiccation response and a simple IDP-cosolute system is far from a true recapitulation of a desiccating system. We have touched on this in the discussion and explicitly addressed the presence of both cosolutes in Arabidopsis and the need for further experiments to test for synergistic interactions using both or multiple mediators to illustrate synergy in multiple cosolute systems: “It is important to note that desiccation-tolerant organisms employ multiple cosolutes to counteract the effects of desiccation. The use of a single cosolute-IDP system in our in vitro experiments does not accurately mirror the diverse cosolute changes in desiccating systems. For instance, Arabidopsis seeds enrich both trehalose and sucrose, among other cosolutes. This demands the necessity of future experiments that incorporate both or multiple cosolutes and assess their synergistic effects, thus elucidating the intricate synergy in multi-cosolute systems.”

      It would be helpful if the authors could spell out the theoretical basis of how they quantify synergy. I understand what they are doing - and maybe there are no better ways to do it - but it seems like an approach with limitations. The authors identify one in that the calculation only works far from 100%, but to me, it seems there would be an equally strict requirement to be significantly above 0%. This would suggest that it is used wrongly in Figure 6H, where there is no effect of betaine (at least as far as the color scheme allows one to distinguish the different bars). In this case, the authors cannot really conclude synergy or not, it could be a straight non-synergistic inhibition by betaine.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern about the theoretical basis of how we quantify synergy. We do acknowledge the limitation of our LDH protection/synergy assay only produces interpretable data when our protectant/mixture yields protection levels within the range 0 and below 100%. Betaine was not protective in any of the concentrations we tested in this study. In line with the reviewer’s comment, we also acknowledge that within our experimental procedures, the inhibitory effects of betaine cannot be accurately captured, considering that LDH activity is ~0% without protectants. However, in our positive control in which LDH is co-incubated with betaine or betaine and CAHS D overnight in the hydrated state, we do not see a loss of enzymatic function of LDH nullifying a direct inhibition by betaine. We have added this text in our manuscript: “Glycine betaine on its own is not protective to LDH during drying nor does it inhibit LDH activity (Fig. S8E)”.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The conclusion in lines 195-196 seems overstated as the length dependence could be strongly changed in non-tested concentrations or those that are not possible experimentally. Notably, the IDPs in Figure 2 are around 200AA and only transition in the ranges tested for these peptides. Some other conclusions around this point seem a little overstated.

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern about the potential variability of the length dependence of the motifs at concentrations beyond those tested. However, we would like to highlight that higher concentrations of the tandem repeats (At22 and At44) inactivated LDH during the incubation period, as was seen with  the 11-mer motifs. This meant we could not evaluate protection by these motifs at concentrations beyond those plotted in Fig. 1A. This behavior was not observed for the full-length proteins. Regardless, we have toned down the conclusion in lines 195-196 to only reflect our results for the 2X and 4X repeats of At11 which now reads “We synthesized 2X (At22) and 4X (At44) tandem repeats of the A. thaliana 11-mer LEA_4 motif (At11). At22 and At44 show minimal potency in preserving in vitro LDH function during drying (Fig. 1A, Fig. S1A).”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure 3: The focus on the ratio 222/210 seems inappropriate. That would indeed be useful for telling apart e.g. an alpha-to-beta transition, or formation of coiled coils. However, for a helix-to-coil equilibrium, which is likely to dominate here, it will not be especially sensitive as demonstrated e.g. by BSA in the dry state.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. The use of ratios to measure structural transition is primarily to eliminate the effects of concentrations on the graph. It is clear from Fig. 3A and Fig. 3B that a structural transition occurs between the aqueous and the desiccated state. This is also very clear from the 222/210 ratio that we use (Fig. 3C), for every construct other than BSA - which indeed does not seem to undergo a dramatic structural change in the desiccated state. We have clarified this now in the description of the results: “Using this metric, all LEAs and CAHS D display a clear increase in helical propensity upon being desiccated (Fig. 3C). On the other hand, the helical propensity of BSA remains very similar to its hydrated state, indicating that no dramatic structural change took place (Fig. 3C).

      Minor comments:

      Figure 1F is not mentioned in the text.

      We have included Fig. 1F in the text.

      Some technical details missing for SAXS experiments.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We’ve added additional technical details to the main text, and directed readers to the methods for more information.

      It is well known that BSA is in a monomer-dimer equilibrium and this is normally taken into account in data analysis as this is often a calibration sample.

      We’ve calculated for BSA, and correlated the resulting data with synergy. This can be found in figure S7M and figure S8I.

      Line 247: "BSA, which comes from cows, which of course have no capacity for anhydrobiosis" - This seems like a rather strong statement without a reference. Did the authors consider reanimating beef jerky by soaking it in water? ;-)

      This is a great idea, and we hope to assign this project to our next rotation student.

      Minor suggestions for figures (that are generally very well done):

      Figure 1-4: Consider using the color scheme to indicate what the endogenous cosolutes are. Even though this info is in table one, it would still improve readability.

      We have added the colored organismal icons for all figures in which the plain black ones were previously used, including supplementals.

      Figure 4: consider adding some white space between the two concentration series of solutes to avoid being read as a single concentration series.

      We have updated this figure to clearly separate each sample by osmolyte.

      Figure 6H: Consider changing the colors for Betaine and CAHS D, so they are easier to distinguish. They are hard to tell apart on a printout.

      We have adjusted the colors for betaine and CAHS D.

    1. Authorr Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The objective of this investigation was to determine whether experimental pain could induce alterations in cortical inhibitory/facilitatory activity observed in TMS-evoked potentials (TEPs). Previous TMS investigations of pain perception had focused on motor evoked potentials (MEPs), which reflect a combination of cortical, spinal, and peripheral activity, as well as restricting the focus to M1. The main strength of this investigation is the combined use of TMS and EEG in the context of experimental pain. More specifically, Experiment 1 investigated whether acute pain altered cortical excitability, reflected in the modulation of TEPs. The main outcome of this study is that relative to non-painful warm stimuli, painful thermal stimuli led to an increase on the amplitude of the TEP N45, with a larger increase associated with higher pain ratings. Because it has been argued that a significant portion of TEPs could reflect auditory potentials elicited by the sound (click) of the TMS, Experiment 2 constituted a control study that aimed to disentangle the cortical response related to TMS and auditory activity. Finally, Experiment 3 aimed to disentangle the cortical response to TMS and reafferent feedback from muscular activity elicited by suprathreshold TMS applied over M1. The fact that the authors accompanied their main experiment with two control experiments strengthens the conclusion that the N45 TEP peak could be implicated in the perception of painful stimuli.

      Perhaps, the addition of a highly salient but non-painful stimulus (i.e. from another modality) would have further ruled out that the effects on the N45 are not predominantly related to intensity/saliency of the stimulus rather than to pain per se.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment on the possibility of whether stimulus intensity influences the N45 as opposed to pain per se. We agree that the ideal experiment would have included multiple levels of stimulation. We would argue, however, that that in Experiment 1, despite the same level of stimulus intensity for all participants (46 degrees), individual differences in pain ratings were associated with the change in the N45 amplitude, suggesting that the results cannot be explained by stimulus intensity, but rather by pain intensity.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors have used transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) and motor evoked potentials (MEPs) and TMS-electroencephalography (EEG) evoked potentials (TEPs) to determine how experimental heat pain could induce alterations in these metrics.
In Experiment 1 (n = 29), multiple sustained thermal stimuli were administered over the forearm, with the first, second, and third block of stimuli consisting of warm but non-painful (pre-pain block), painful heat (pain block) and warm but non-painful (post-pain block) temperatures respectively. Painful stimuli led to an increase in the amplitude of the fronto-central N45, with a larger increase associated with higher pain ratings. Experiments 2 and 3 studied the correlation between the increase in the N45 in pain and the effects of a sham stimulation protocol/higher stimulation intensity. They found that the centro-frontal N45 TEP was decreased in acute pain. The study comes from a very strong group in the pain fields with long experience in psychophysics, experimental pain, neuromodulation, and EEG in pain. They are among the first to report on changes in cortical excitability as measured by TMS-EEG over M1. While their results are in line with reductions seen in motor-evoked responses during pain and effort was made to address possible confounding factors (study 2 and 3), there are some points that need attention. In my view the most important are:

      1) The method used to calculate the rest motor threshold, which is likely to have overestimated its true value : calculating highly abnormal RMT may lead to suprathreshold stimulations in all instances (Experiment 3) and may lead to somatosensory "contamination" due to re-afferent loops in both "supra" and "infra" (aka. less supra) conditions.

      The method used to assess motor threshold was the TMS motor threshold Assessment Tool (MTAT) which estimates motor threshold using maximum likelihood parametric estimation by sequential testing (Awiszus et al., 2003; Awiszus and Borckardt, 2011). This was developed as a quicker alternative for calculating motor threshold compared to the traditional Rossini-Rothwell method which involves determining the lowest intensity that evokes at least 5/10 MEPs of at least 50 microvolts. The method has been shown to achieve the same accuracy of determining motor threshold as the traditional Rossini-Rothwell method, but with fewer pulses (Qi et al., 2011; Silbert et al., 2013).

      We have now made this clearer in the manuscript:

      “The RMT was determined using the TMS motor thresholding assessment tool, which estimates the TMS intensity required to induce an MEP of 50 microvolts with a 50% probability using maximum likelihood parametric estimation by sequential testing (Awiszus, 2003; Awiszus & Borckardt, 2011). This method has been shown to achieve the accuracy of methods such as the Rossini-Rothwell method (Rossini et al., 1994; Rothwell et al., 1999) but with fewer pulses (Qi, Wu, & Schweighofer, 2011; Silbert, Patterson, Pevcic, Windnagel, & Thickbroom, 2013). The test stimulus intensity was set at 110% RMT to concurrently measure MEPs and TEPs during pre-pain, pain and post-pain blocks.”

      Therefore, the high RMTs in our study cannot be explained by the threshold assessment method. Instead, they are likely explained by aspects of the experimental setup that increased the distance between the TMS coil and the scalp, including the layer of foam placed over the coil, the EEG cap and the fact that the electrodes we used had a relatively thick profile. This has been explained in the paper:

      “We note that the relatively high RMTs are likely due to aspects of the experimental setup that increased the distance between the TMS coil and the scalp, including the layer of foam placed over the coil, the EEG cap and relatively thick electrodes (6mm)”

      Awiszus, F. (2003). TMS and threshold hunting. In Supplements to Clinical neurophysiology (Vol. 56, pp. 13-23). Elsevier.

      Qi, F., Wu, A. D., & Schweighofer, N. (2011). Fast estimation of transcranial magnetic stimulation motor threshold. Brain stimulation, 4(1), 50-57.

      Silbert, B. I., Patterson, H. I., Pevcic, D. D., Windnagel, K. A., & Thickbroom, G. W. (2013). A comparison of relative-frequency and threshold-hunting methods to determine stimulus intensity in transcranial magnetic stimulation. Clinical Neurophysiology, 124(4), 708-712.

      2) The low number of pulses used for TEPs (close to ⅓ of the usual and recommended)

      We agree that increasing the number of pulses can increase the signal to noise ratio. During piloting, participants were unable to tolerate the painful stimulus for long periods of time and we were required to minimize the number of pulses per condition.

      We note that there is no set advised number of trials in TMS-EEG research. According to the recommendations paper, the number of trials should be based on the outcome measure e.g., TEP peaks vs. frequency domain measures vs. other measures and based on previous studies investigating test-retest reliability (Hernandez-Pavon et al., 2023). The choice of 66 pulses per condition was based on the study by Kerwin et al., (2018) showing that optimal concordance between TEP peaks can be found with 60-100 TMS pulses delivered in the same run (as in the present study). The concordance was particularly higher for the N40 peak at prefrontal electrodes, which was the key peak and electrode cluster in our study. We have made this clearer:

      “Current recommendations (Hernandez-Pavon et al., 2023) suggest basing the number of TMS trials per condition on the key outcome measure (e.g., TEP peaks vs. frequency measures) and based on previous test-retest reliability studies. In our study the number of trials was based on a test-retest reliability study by (Kerwin, Keller, Wu, Narayan, & Etkin, 2018) which showed that 60 TMS pulses (delivered in the same run) was sufficient to obtain reliable TEP peaks (i.e., sufficient within-individual concordance between the resultant TEP peaks of each trial).”

      Further supporting the reliability of the TEP data in our experiment, we note that the scalp topographies of the TEPs for active TMS at various timepoints (Figures 5, 7 and 9) were similar across all three experiments, especially at 45 ms post-TMS (frontal negative activity, parietal-occipital positive activity).

      In addition to this, the interclass correlation coefficient (Two-way fixed, single measure) for the N45 to active suprathreshold TMS across timepoints for each experiment was 0.90 for Experiment 1 (across pre-pain, pain, post-pain time points), 0.74 for Experiment 2 (across pre-pain and pain conditions), and 0.95 for Experiment 3 (across pre-pain conditions). This suggests that even with the fluctuations in the N45 induced by pain, the N45 for each participant was stable across time, further supporting the reliability of our data. These ICCs are now reported in the supplementary material (subheading: Test-retest reliability of N45 Peaks).

      Hernandez-Pavon, J. C., Veniero, D., Bergmann, T. O., Belardinelli, P., Bortoletto, M., Casarotto, S., ... & Ilmoniemi, R. J. (2023). TMS combined with EEG: Recommendations and open issues for data collection and analysis. Brain Stimulatio, 16(3), 567-593

      Kerwin, L. J., Keller, C. J., Wu, W., Narayan, M., & Etkin, A. (2018). Test-retest reliability of transcranial magnetic stimulation EEG evoked potentials. Brain stimulation, 11(3), 536-544.

      Lack of measures to mask auditory noise.

      In TMS-EEG research, various masking methods have been proposed to suppress the somatosensory and auditory artefacts resulting from TMS pulses, such as white noise played through headphones to mask the click sound (Ilmoniemi and Kičić, 2010), and a thin layer of foam placed between the TMS coil and EEG cap to minimize the scalp sensation (Massimini et al., 2005). However, recent studies have shown that even when these methods are used, sensory contamination of TEPs is still present, as shown by studies that show commonalities in the signal between active and sensory sham conditions that mimic the auditory/somatosensory aspects of real TMS (Biabani et al., 2019; Conde et al., 2019; Rocchi et al., 2021). This has led many authors (Biabani et al., 2019; Conde et al., 2019) to recommend the use of sham conditions to control for sensory contamination. To separate the direct cortical response to TMS from sensory evoked activity, Experiment 2 included a sham TMS condition that mimicked the auditory/somatosensory aspects of active TMS to determine whether any alterations in the TEP peaks in response to pain were due to changes in sensory evoked activity associated with TMS, as opposed to changes in cortical excitability. Therefore, the lack of auditory masking does not impact the main conclusions of the paper.

      We have made this clearer:

      “… masking methods have been used to suppress these sensory inputs, (Ilmoniemi and Kičić, 2010; Massimini et al., 2005). However recent studies have shown that even when these methods are used, sensory contamination of TEPs is still present, as shown by commonalities in the signal between active and sensory sham conditions that mimic the auditory/somatosensory aspects of real TMS (Biabani et al., 2019; Conde et al., 2019; Rocchi et al., 2021). This has led many leading authors (Biabani et al., 2019; Conde et al., 2019) to recommend the use of sham conditions to control for sensory contamination.”

      Ilmoniemi, R. J., & Kičić, D. (2010). Methodology for combined TMS and EEG. Brain topography, 22, 233-248.

      Massimini, M., Ferrarelli, F., Huber, R., Esser, S. K., Singh, H., & Tononi, G. (2005). Breakdown of cortical effective connectivity during sleep. Science, 309(5744), 2228-2232.

      Biabani, M., Fornito, A., Mutanen, T. P., Morrow, J., & Rogasch, N. C. (2019). Characterizing and minimizing the contribution of sensory inputs to TMS-evoked potentials. Brain stimulation, 12(6), 1537-1552.

      Conde, V., Tomasevic, L., Akopian, I., Stanek, K., Saturnino, G. B., Thielscher, A., ... & Siebner, H. R. (2019). The non-transcranial TMS-evoked potential is an inherent source of ambiguity in TMS-EEG studies. Neuroimage, 185, 300-312.

      Rocchi, L., Di Santo, A., Brown, K., Ibáñez, J., Casula, E., Rawji, V., ... & Rothwell, J. (2021). Disentangling EEG responses to TMS due to cortical and peripheral activations. Brain stimulation, 14(1), 4-18.

      3) A supra-stimulus heat stimulus not based on individual HPT, that oscillates during the experiment and that lead to large variations in pain intensity across participants is unfortunate.

      The choice of whether to calibrate or fix stimulus intensity is a contentious question in experimental pain research. A recent discussion by Adamczyk et al., (2022) explores the pros and cons of each approach and recommends situations where one method may be preferred over the other. That paper suggests that the choice of the methodology is related to the research question – when the main outcome of the research is objective (neurophysiological measures) and researchers are interested in the variability in pain ratings, the fixed approach is preferrable. Given we explored the relationship between MEP/N45 modulation by pain and pain intensity, this question is better explored by using the same stimulus intensity for all participants, as opposed to calibrating the intensity to achieve a similar level of pain across participants.

      We have made this clearer:

      “Given we were interested in the individual relationship between pain and excitability changes, the fixed temperature of 46ºC ensured larger variability in pain ratings as opposed to calibrating the temperature of the thermode for each participant (Adamczyk et al., 2022).”.

      Adamczyk, W. M., Szikszay, T. M., Nahman-Averbuch, H., Skalski, J., Nastaj, J., Gouverneur, P., & Luedtke, K. (2022). To calibrate or not to calibrate? A methodological dilemma in experimental pain research. The Journal of Pain, 23(11), 1823-1832.

      So is the lack of report on measures taken to correct for a fortuitous significance (multiple comparison correction) in such a huge number of serial paired tests.

      Note that we used a Bayesian approach for all analyses as opposed to the traditional frequentist approach. In contrast to the frequentist approach, the Bayesian approach does not require corrections for multiple comparisons (Gelman et al., 2000) given that they provide a ratio representing the strength of evidence for the null vs. alternative hypotheses as opposed to accepting or rejecting the null hypothesis based on p-values. As such, throughout the paper, we frame our interpretations and conclusions based on the strength of evidence (e.g. anecdotal/weak, moderate, strong, very strong) as opposed to referring to the significance of the effects.

      Gelman A, Tuerlinckx F. (2000). Type S error rates for classical and Bayesian single and multiple comparison procedures. Computational statistics, 15(3):373-90.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The present study aims to investigate whether pain influences cortical excitability. To this end, heat pain stimuli are applied to healthy human participants. Simultaneously, TMS pulses are applied to M1 and TMS-evoked potentials (TEPs) and pain ratings are assessed after each TMS pulse. TEPs are used as measures of cortical excitability. The results show that TEP amplitudes at 45 msec (N45) after TMS pulses are higher during painful stimulation than during non-painful warm stimulation. Control experiments indicate that auditory, somatosensory, or proprioceptive effects cannot explain this effect. Considering that the N45 might reflect GABAergic activity, the results suggest that pain changes GABAergic activity. The authors conclude that TEP indices of GABAergic transmission might be useful as biomarkers of pain sensitivity.

      Pain-induced cortical excitability changes is an interesting, timely, and potentially clinically relevant topic. The paradigm and the analysis are sound, the results are mostly convincing, and the interpretation is adequate. The following clarifications and revisions might help to improve the manuscript further.

      1) Non-painful control condition. In this condition, stimuli are applied at warmth detection threshold. At this intensity, by definition, some stimuli are not perceived as different from the baseline. Thus, this condition might not be perfectly suited to control for the effects of painful vs. non-painful stimulation. This potential confound should be critically discussed.

      In Experiment 3, we also collected warmth ratings to confirm whether the pre-pain stimuli were perceived as different from baseline. This detail has been added to them methods:

      “In addition to the pain rating in between TMS pulses, we collected a second rating for warmth of the thermal stimulus (0 = neutral, 10 = very warm) to confirm that the participants felt some difference in sensation relative to baseline during the pre-pain block. This data is presented in the supplementary material”.

      We did not include these data in the initial submission but have now included it in the supplemental material. These data showed warmth ratings were close to 2/10 on average. This confirms that the non-painful control condition produced some level of non-painful sensation.

      2) MEP differences between conditions. The results do not show differences in MEP amplitudes between conditions (BF 1.015). The analysis nevertheless relates MEP differences between conditions to pain ratings. It would be more appropriate to state that in this study, pain did not affect MEP and to remove the correlation analysis and its interpretation from the manuscript.

      The interindividual relationship between changes in MEP amplitude and individual pain rating is statistically independent from the overall group level effect of pain on MEP amplitude. Therefore, conclusions for the individual and group level effects can be made independently.

      It is also important to note that in the pain literature, there is now increasing emphasis placed on investigating the individual level relationship between changes in cortical excitability and pain as opposed to the group level effect (Seminowicz et al., 2019; Summers et al., 2019). As such, it is important to make these results readily available for the scientific community.

      We have made this clearer:

      ‘As there is now increasing emphasis placed on investigating the individual level relationship between changes in cortical excitability and pain and not only the group level effect, (Chowdhury et al., 2022; Seminowicz et al., 2018; Seminowicz, Thapa, & Schabrun, 2019; Summers et al., 2019) we also investigated the correlations between pain ratings and changes in MEP (and TEP) amplitude”

      Chowdhury, N. S., Chang, W. J., Millard, S. K., Skippen, P., Bilska, K., Seminowicz, D. A., & Schabrun, S. M. (2022). The Effect of Acute and Sustained Pain on Corticomotor Excitability: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Group and Individual Level Data. The Journal of Pain, 23(10), 1680-1696.

      Summers, S. J., Chipchase, L. S., Hirata, R., Graven-Nielsen, T., Cavaleri, R., & Schabrun, S. M. (2019). Motor adaptation varies between individuals in the transition to sustained pain. Pain, 160(9), 2115-2125.

      Seminowicz, D. A., Thapa, T., & Schabrun, S. M. (2019). Corticomotor depression is associated with higher pain severity in the transition to sustained pain: a longitudinal exploratory study of individual differences. The Journal of Pain, 20(12), 1498-1506.

      3) Confounds by pain ratings. The ISI between TMS pulses is 4 sec and includes verbal pain ratings. Considering this relatively short ISI, would it be possible that verbal pain ratings confound the TEP? Moreover, could the pain ratings confound TEP differences between conditions, e.g., by providing earlier ratings when the stimulus is painful? This should be carefully considered, and the authors might perform control analyses.

      It is unlikely that the verbal ratings contaminated the TEP response as the subsequent TMS pulse was not delivered until the verbal rating was complete and given that each participant was cued by the experimenter to provide the pain rating after each pulse (rather than the participant giving the rating at any time). As such, it would not be possible for participants to provide earlier ratings to more painful stimuli.

      We have made this clearer:

      "To avoid contamination of TEPs by verbal ratings, the subsequent TMS pulse was not delivered until the verbal rating was complete, and the participant was cued by the experimenter to provide the pain rating after each pulse.”

      4) Confounds by time effects. Non-painful and painful conditions were performed in a fixed order. Potential confounds by time effects should be carefully considered.

      Previous research suggests that pain alters neural excitability even after pain has subsided. In a recent meta-analysis (Chowdhury et al., 2022) we found effect sizes of 0.55-0.9 for MEP reductions 0-30 minutes after pain had resolved. As such, we avoided intermixing pain and warm blocks given subsequent warm blocks would not serve as a valid baseline, as each subsequent warm block would have residual effects from the previous pain blocks.

      Chowdhury, N. S., Chang, W. J., Millard, S. K., Skippen, P., Bilska, K., Seminowicz, D. A., & Schabrun, S. M. (2022). The Effect of Acute and Sustained Pain on Corticomotor Excitability: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Group and Individual Level Data. The Journal of Pain, 23(10), 1680-1696.

      At the same time, given there was no conclusive evidence for a difference in N45 amplitude between pre-pain and post-pain conditions of Experiment 1 (Supplementary Figure 1), it is unlikely that the effect of pain was an artefact of time i.e., the explanation that successive thermal stimuli applied to the skin results an increase in the N45, regardless of whether the stimuli are painful or not. We will make this point in our next revision.

      We have discussed this issue:

      “Lastly, future research should consider replicating our experiment using intermixed pain and no pain blocks, as opposed to fixed pre-pain and pain blocks, to control for order effects i.e., the explanation that successive thermal stimuli applied to the skin results an increase in the N45 peak, regardless of whether the stimuli are painful or not. However, we note that there was no conclusive evidence for a difference in N45 peak amplitude between pre-pain and post-pain conditions of Experiment 1 (Supplementary Figure 1), suggesting it is unlikely that the observed effects were an artefact of time.”

      5) Data availability. The authors should state how they make the data openly available.

      We have uploaded the MEP, TEP and pain data on the Open science framework https://osf.io/k3psu/

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I think the study is quite solid and I only have very minor recommendations for the authors:

      • Introduction, p. 3: "Functional magnetic resonance imaging has helped us understand where in the brain pain is processed". This is an overstatement. fMRI provides us with potential biomarkers (e.g. "the pain signature"), but the specificity of these responses for pain is debated and we still do not know where in the brain pain is processed.

      We have amended to:

      “functional magnetic resonance imaging has assisted in the localization of brain structures implicated in pain processing”

      • Introduction, p. 5: "neural baseline" should be "neutral baseline"?

      We thank the reviewer for identifying this – this has now been amended.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      INTRODUCTION

      The introduction mentions how important extra-motor areas can be explored by TMS-EEG, then the effects of DLPFC rTMS on TEPs ... but you do not explore the DLPFC... Perhaps the introduction should be reframed.

      The current work explores cortical excitability throughout the brain (as shown in our cluster-based permutation and source localization analyses), so our investigations are in line with the introductions statement about the importance of studying non-motor areas.

      The reference to DLPFC rTMS was to highlight current existing research that has applied TMS-EEG to understand pain. It was not used as a methodological rationale to investigate the DLPFC in the present study. To make the research gap clearer, we state:

      “While these studies assist us in understanding whether TEPs might mediate rTMS-induced pain reductions, no study has investigated whether TEPs are altered in direct response to pain”

      Lignes 63-65 the term "TMS" is used to refer to motor corticospinal excitability measures, in contrast to TMS-EEG measures of TEPs. Then the authors come back to TMS-EEG and then again back to MEPs. This is rather confusing: TMS means TMS... the concept of MEP/ motor corticospinal excitability measures is not intuitive when using the term "TMS". I suggest using motor corticospinal excitability measures when referring to MEP/MEP-based measures of cortical excitability...) and M1TMS-EEG-evoked potentials (usually abbreviated to TEPs) to refer to TMS-EEG responses as measured here.

      Throughout the manuscript, we now use the term TEPs when referring to TMS-EEG measures, and MEPs when referring to TMS-EMG measure. The use of TEPs vs. MEPs will make it easier for readers to follow which measures we are referring to.

      Line 83: "As such, the precise origin of the pain mechanism cannot be localized." Please rephrase, the sentence conveys the idea that it is indeed possible to localize the origin of a pain mechanism with a different approach, and we know this is not currently possible, irrespective of the methodological setup.

      We have replaced this with:

      “This makes it unclear as to whether pain processes occur at the cortical, spinal or peripheral level.”

      How can one predetermine the temperature that will be perceived as painful by someone else, and not base it on individual HPT? This is against principles of psychophysics. Please comment. Attesting all participants had HPT below 46 is important, but then being stimulated at 46C when our HPT is 45C is different from when our HPT is 39C. Please explain why the pain intensity was not standardised based on individual HPT.

      Please refer to our response to the public review related to the issue

      Line 38: "if we had used an alternative design with blocks of warm stimuli intermixed with blocks of painful stimuli, the warm stimuli blocks would not serve as a valid non-painful baseline". I do not understand why it is not possible to have a pain-free baseline, followed by a pain/warm sequence.

      In our study, we had the choice of either intermixing blocks or to use a fixed sequence. Previous research suggests that pain alters neural excitability even after pain has subsided. In a recent meta-analysis (Chowdhury et al., 2022) we found effect sizes of 0.55-0.9 for MEP reductions 0-30 minutes after pain had resolved. As such, we avoided intermixing pain and warm blocks given subsequent warm blocks would not serve as a valid baseline, as each subsequent warm block would have residual effects from the previous pain blocks.

      We have updated the manuscript to be clearer about why we used a fixed sequence:

      “The pre-pain/pain/post-pain design has been commonly used in the TMS-MEP pain literature, as many studies have demonstrated strong changes in corticomotor excitability that persist beyond the painful period. Indeed, in a systematic review, we showed effect sizes of 0.55-0.9 for MEP reductions 0-30 minutes after pain had resolved (Chowdhury et al., 2022). As such, if we had used an alternative design with blocks of warm stimuli intermixed with blocks of painful stimuli, the warm stimuli blocks would not serve as a valid non-painful baseline”

      Chowdhury, N. S., Chang, W. J., Millard, S. K., Skippen, P., Bilska, K., Seminowicz, D. A., & Schabrun, S. M. (2022). The Effect of Acute and Sustained Pain on Corticomotor Excitability: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Group and Individual Level Data. The Journal of Pain, 23(10), 1680-1696.

      Please explain, and provide evidence that stimulation of people with predetermined temperatures is able to create warm/pain/warm sensations, without entraining pain in the last warm stimulation.

      A previous study by Dube et al. (2011) used sequences of warm (36°C), painful and neutral (32° C) and found that participants did not experience pain at any time when the temperature was at a warm temperature of 36°C. We have now cited this study:

      “Based on a previous study (Dubé & Mercier, 2011) which also used sequences of painful (50ºC) and warm (36°C) thermal stimuli, we did not anticipate that the stimulus in the pain block would entrain pain in the post-pain block”

      Dubé, J. A., & Mercier, C. (2011). Effect of pain and pain expectation on primary motor cortex excitability. Clinical neurophysiology, 122(11), 2318-2323.

      METHODS

      It is not clear if participants with chronic pain, present in 20% of the general population, were excluded. If they were, please provide "how" in methods.

      We excluded participants with a history or presence of acute/chronic pain. This has now been clarified:

      “Participants were excluded if they had a history of chronic pain condition or any current acute pain”

      Line 489: the definition of warm detection threshold is unusual, please provide a reference.

      We used an identical method to Furman et al., (2020). We have made the reference to this clearer: “Warmth, cold and pain thresholds were assessed in line with a previous study (Furman et al., 2020)”

      Furman, A. J., Prokhorenko, M., Keaser, M. L., Zhang, J., Chen, S., Mazaheri, A., & Seminowicz, D. A. (2020). Sensorimotor peak alpha frequency is a reliable biomarker of prolonged pain sensitivity. Cerebral Cortex, 30(12), 6069-6082.

      In Experiment 2, please explain how the lack of randomisation between "pre-pain" and "pain" may have influenced results.

      Given we tried to replicate Experiment 1’s methodology as close as possible (to isolate the source of the effect from Experiment 1) we chose to repeat the same sequence of blocks as Experiment 1: pre-pain followed by pain.

      Given there was no conclusive evidence for a difference in N45 amplitude between pre-pain and post-pain conditions of Experiment 1 (Supplementary Figure 1), it is unlikely that the effect of pain was an order effect i.e., the explanation that successive thermal stimuli applied to the skin results an increase in the N45, regardless of whether the stimuli are painful or not.

      We now discuss the issue of randomization:

      “Lastly, future research should consider replicating our experiment using intermixed pain and no pain blocks, as opposed to fixed pre-pain and pain blocks, to control for order effects i.e. the explanation that successive thermal stimuli applied to the skin results an increase in the N45 peak, regardless of whether the stimuli are painful or not. However, we note that there was no conclusive evidence for a difference in N45 peak amplitude between pre-pain and post-pain conditions of Experiment 1 (Supplementary Figure 1), suggesting it is unlikely that the observed effects were an artefact of time”

      Also, in Methods in general, disclose how pain intensity was assessed, and how.

      Pain intensity was assessed using a verbal rating scale (0 = no pain, and 10 = most pain imaginable). We have provided more detail:

      “During each 40 second thermal stimulus, TMS pulses were manually delivered, with a verbal pain rating score (0 = no pain, and 10 = worst pain imaginable) obtained between pulses. To avoid contamination of TEPs by verbal ratings, the subsequent TMS pulse was not delivered until the verbal rating was complete, and the participant was cued by the experimenter to provide the pain rating after each pulse”

      Please explain how auditory masking was made during data collection.

      Auditory masking noise was not played through the headphones, given that Experiment 2 controlled for auditory evoked potentials. We have made this clearer:

      “Auditory masking was not used. Instead, auditory evoked potentials resulting from the TMS click sound were controlled for in Experiment 2”

      Please explain if online TEP monitoring was used during data collection

      Online TEP monitoring was not available with our EEG software. We have made this clearer in the manuscript:

      “Online TEP monitoring was not available with the EEG software”

      Line 499: what is subthreshold TMS here? You are measuring TEPs, and not MEPs initially, so you may have a threshold for MEPs and TEPs, which are not the same.

      The intensity was calibrated relative to the MEP response (rather than TEP response) - this has now been clarified:

      “… and the inclusion of a subthreshold TMS (90% of resting motor threshold) condition intermixed within both the pre-pain and pain blocks.”

      Please provide a reference and a figure to illustrate the electric stimulation used in the sham procedure in Study 2

      The apparatus for the electrical stimulation is shown in Figure 7A, and was based on previous papers using electrical stimulation over motor cortex to simulate the somatosensory aspect of real TMS (Chowdhury et al., 2022; Gordon et al., 2022; Rocchi et al., 2021). We have made this clearer:

      “Electrical stimulation was based on previous studies attempting to simulate the somatosensory component of active TMS (Chowdhury et al., 2022; Gordon et al., 2022; Rocchi et al., 2021)”

      Gordon, P. C., Jovellar, D. B., Song, Y., Zrenner, C., Belardinelli, P., Siebner, H. R., & Ziemann, U. (2021). Recording brain responses to TMS of primary motor cortex by EEG–utility of an optimized sham procedure. Neuroimage, 245, 118708.

      Chowdhury, N. S., Rogasch, N. C., Chiang, A. K., Millard, S. K., Skippen, P., Chang, W. J., ... & Schabrun, S. M. (2022). The influence of sensory potentials on transcranial magnetic stimulation–Electroencephalography recordings. Clinical Neurophysiology, 140, 98-109.

      Rocchi, L., Di Santo, A., Brown, K., Ibánez, J., Casula, E., Rawji, V., ... & Rothwell, J. (2021). Disentangling EEG responses to TMS due to cortical and peripheral activations. Brain stimulation, 14(1), 4-18.

      It is not so common to use active electrodes for TMS-EEG. Please confirm the electrodes used and if they are c-ring TMS compatible and provide reference if otherwise (or actual papers recommending active ones)

      To be more specific about the electrode type we have indicated:

      “Signals were recorded from 63 TMS-compatible active electrodes (6mm height, 13mm width), embedded in an elastic cap (ActiCap, Brain Products, Germany), in line with the international 10-10 system”

      A paper directly comparing TEPs between active and passive electrodes found no difference between the two and concluded TEPs can be reliably obtained using active electrodes (Mancuso et al., 2021). There is also evidence that active electrodes have better signal quality than passive electrodes at higher impedance levels (Laszlo et al., 2014).

      This information has now been added to the paper:

      “Active electrodes result in similar TEPs (both magnitude and peaks) to more commonly used passive electrodes (Mancuso et al., 2021). There is also evidence that active electrodes have higher signal quality than passive electrodes at higher impedance levels (Laszlo, Ruiz-Blondet, Khalifian, Chu, & Jin, 2014).”

      There is a growing literature showing that monophonic pulses are not reliable for TEPs when compared to biphasic ones, please provide references. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.brs.2023.02.009

      The reference provided by the reviewer states that biphasic and monophasic pulses both have advantages and disadvantages, rather than stating “monophonic pulses are not reliable for TEPs”. While there is some evidence that the artefacts resulting from monophasic pulses are larger than biphasic pulses, the EEG signal still returns to baseline levels within 5ms of the TMS pulse (Rogasch et al., 2013). Moreover, one paper (Casula et al. 2018) found that the resultant TEPs evoked by monophasic pulses are larger than those resulting from biphasic pulses. The authors postulated that monophasic pulses are more effective at activating widespread cortical areas than biphasic pulses. Ultimately the reference provided by the reviewer concludes that “effect of pulse shape on TEPs has not been systematically investigated and more studies are needed”.

      Rogasch, N. C., Thomson, R. H., Daskalakis, Z. J., & Fitzgerald, P. B. (2013). Short-latency artifacts associated with concurrent TMS–EEG. Brain stimulation, 6(6), 868-876.

      Casula, E. P., Rocchi, L., Hannah, R., & Rothwell, J. C. (2018). Effects of pulse width, waveform and current direction in the cortex: A combined cTMS-EEG study. Brain stimulation, 11(5), 1063-1070.

      In most heads, a pulse in the PA direction is not obtained by a coil oriented 45o to the midline. The later induced later-medial pulses, good to obtain MEPs

      We followed previous studies measuring MEPs from the ECRB elbow muscle (Schabrun et al., 2016; de Martino et al., 2019) whereby the TMS coil handle was angled at 45 degrees relative to the midline in order to induce a posterior-anterior current. We are not aware of literature that shows that the 45 degrees orientation does not induce a posterior anterior current in most heads.

      Schabrun, S. M., Christensen, S. W., Mrachacz-Kersting, N., & Graven-Nielsen, T. (2016). Motor cortex reorganization and impaired function in the transition to sustained muscle pain. Cerebral Cortex, 26(5), 1878-1890.

      De Martino, E., Seminowicz, D. A., Schabrun, S. M., Petrini, L., & Graven-Nielsen, T. (2019). High frequency repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation to the left dorsolateral prefrontal cortex modulates sensorimotor cortex function in the transition to sustained muscle pain. Neuroimage, 186, 93-102.

      The definition of RMT is (very) unusual. RMT provides small 50microV MEPs in 50% of times. If you obtain MEPs at 50microV you are supra threshold!

      The TMS motor threshold assessment tool calculates threshold in the same manner as other threshold tools – it calculates the intensity that elicits an MEP of 50 microvolts, 50% of the time. We have made this clearer:

      “The RMT was determined using the TMS motor thresholding assessment tool, which estimates the TMS intensity required to induce an MEP of 50 microvolts with a 50% probability using maximum likelihood parametric estimation by sequential testing (Awiszus and Borckardt, 2011). This method has been shown to achieve the accuracy of methods such as the Rossini-Rothwell method (Rossini et al., 1994; Rothwell et al., 1999) but with fewer pulses (Qi et al., 2011; Silbert et al., 2013).”

      Please inform the inter TMS pulse interval used of TEPs and whether they were randomly generated.

      The pulses were delivered manually – the interval was not randomly generated – as stated:

      “As TMS was delivered manually, there was no set interpulse interval. However, the 40 second stimulus duration allowed for 11 pulses for each heat stimulus …. (~ 4 seconds in between …)”

      Why have you stimulated suprathreshold on M1 when assessing TEP´s? The whole idea is that large TEPs can be obtained at lower intensities below real RMT and that prevents re-entering loops of somatosensory and joint movement inputs that insert "noise" to the TEPs.

      The suprathreshold intensity was used to concurrently measure MEPs during pre-pain, pain and post-pain blocks.

      We have made this clearer:

      “The test stimulus intensity was set at 110% RMT to concurrently measure MEPs and TEPs during pre-pain, pain and post-pain blocks.”

      The influence of re-afferent muscle activity was controlled for in Experiment 3.

      Did you assess pain intensity after each of the TEP pulses? Please discuss how such a cognitive task may have influenced results

      Pain intensity was assessed after each TMS pulse, as stated:

      “TMS pulses were manually delivered, with a verbal pain rating score (0 = no pain, and 10 = most pain imaginable) obtained between pulses”

      Reviewer 3 also brought up a concern of whether the verbal rating task might have influenced the TEPs. However, it is unlikely that the task contaminated the TEP response as the subsequent TMS pulse was not delivered until the verbal rating was complete and given that each participant was cued by the experimenter to provide the pain rating after each pulse (rather than the participant giving the rating at any time). We have made this clearer where we state:

      “To avoid contamination of TEPs by verbal ratings, the subsequent TMS pulse was not delivered until the verbal rating was complete, and the participant was cued by the experimenter to provide the pain rating after each pulse”

      The QST approach is unusual. Please confirm the sequence of CDT, WDT and HPT were not randomised and that no interval beyond 6sec were used. Proper references are welcome.

      In line with a previous study (Furman et al., 2020), the sequence of the CPT, WDT and HPT were not randomized, and the interval was not more than 6 seconds.

      We have made this clearer:

      “A total of three trials was conducted for each test to obtain an average, with an interstimulus interval of six seconds. The sequence of cold, warmth and pain threshold was the same for all participants (Furman et al. 2020)”

      Performing 60 pulses for TEPs is unusual, and against the minimum number in recommendations

      Please explain and comment.https://doi.org/10.1016/j.brs.2023.02.009

      Please refer to our previous response to this concern in the public reviews.

      Line 578: when you refer to "heat" the reader may confound warm/heat with heat meaning suprathreshold. Please revise the wording.

      We have now replaced the word heat stimulus with thermal stimulus.

      Why were Bayesian statistics used instead as frequentist ones?

      We have made this clearer:

      “Given we were interested in determining the evidence for pain altering TEP peaks in certain conditions (e.g., active TMS) and pain not altering TEP peaks in other conditions (sham TMS), we used a Bayesian approach as opposed to a frequentist approach, which considers the strength of the evidence for the alternative vs. null hypothesis”

      RESULTS

      There is a huge response with high power after 100ms- Please discuss if you believe auditory potentials may have influenced it.

      It is indeed possible that auditory potentials were present at 100ms. We now state:

      “Indeed, the signal at ~100ms post-TMS from Experiment 1 may reflect an auditory N100 response”

      The presence of auditory contamination does not impact the main conclusions of the paper given this was controlled for in Experiment 2.

      Please discuss how pain ranging from 3-10 may have influenced results in the "PAIN" situation,

      It is anticipated that the fixed thermal stimulus intensity approach would lead to large variations in pain ratings (Adamczyk et al., 2022). This is a recommended approach when the aim of the research is to determine relationships between neurophysiological measures and individual differences in pain sensitivity (Adamczyk et al., 2022). Indeed, we were interested in whether alterations in neurophysiological measures were associated with pain intensity, and we found that higher pain ratings were associated with smaller reductions in MEP amplitude and larger increases in N45 amplitude.

      Adamczyk, W. M., Szikszay, T. M., Nahman-Averbuch, H., Skalski, J., Nastaj, J., Gouverneur, P., & Luedtke, K. (2022). To calibrate or not to calibrate? A methodological dilemma in experimental pain research. The Journal of Pain, 23(11), 1823-1832.

      Please indicate if any participants offered pain after warm stimulation ( possible given secondary hyperalgesia after so many plateaux of heat stimulation).

      As stated in the results “All participants reported 0/10 pain during the pre-pain and post-pain blocks”.

      Please discuss the potential effects of having around 10% of "bad channels) In average per experiment per participants, its impacts in source localisation and in TEP measurement. Same for >5 epochs excluded by participant.

      The number of bad channels has been incorrectly stated by the reviewer as being 10% on average per experiment per participant, whereas the correct number of reported bad channels was 3%, 4.7% and 9.8% for Experiment 1, 2 and 3 respectively (see supplementary material). These numbers are below the accepted number of bad channels to interpolate (10%) in EEG pipelines (e.g., Debnath et al., 2020; Kayhan et al., 2022), so it is unlikely that our channel exclusions significantly influenced the quality of our source localization an TEP data.

      Debnath, R., Buzzell, G. A., Morales, S., Bowers, M. E., Leach, S. C., & Fox, N. A. (2020). The Maryland analysis of developmental EEG (MADE) pipeline. Psychophysiology, 57(6), e13580.

      Kayhan, E., Matthes, D., Haresign, I. M., Bánki, A., Michel, C., Langeloh, M., ... & Hoehl, S. (2022). DEEP: A dual EEG pipeline for developmental hyperscanning studies. Developmental cognitive neuroscience, 54, 101104.

      The number of excluded epochs is unlikely to have influenced the results given there was evidence for no difference in the number of rejected epochs between conditions (E1 BF10 = 0.145, E2 BF10 = 0.27, E3 BF10 = 0.169 – these BFs have now been reported in the supplementary material), and given the reliability of the N45 was high (see response to previous comment on the number of trials per condition).

      HPT of 42.9 {plus minus} 2.5{degree sign}C means many participants had HPT close to 46oC. Please discuss

      While some participants did indeed have pain thresholds close to 46 degrees, they nonetheless reported pain during the test blocks. While such participants may have reported less pain compared to others, we aimed for larger variations in pain ratings, given one of the research questions was to determine why pain intensity differs between individuals (given the same noxious stimulus). Indeed, we showed that this variation was meaningful (pain intensity was related to alterations in N45 and MEP amplitude).

      Please explain the sentence : line 139 "As such, if we had used an alternative design with blocks of warm stimuli intermixed with blocks of painful stimuli, the warm stimuli blocks would not serve as a valid non-painful baseline." I cannot see why.

      Please refer to our previous point on why the fixed sequence was included.

      And on the top of that heat was not individualised according to HPT.

      Please refer to our previous point on why we used a fixed stimulus approach.

      Sequences of warm/heat were not randomised. Please refer to our previous point on the why the sequence of blocks was not randomized.

      Line 197: "However, as this is the first study investigating the effects of experimental pain on TEPsamplitude, there were no a priori regions or timepoints of interest to compare betweenconditions". This is not clear. It means you have not measured the activity (size of the N45) under the electrode closest to the TMS coil? The TEP is supposed to by higher under the stimulated target/respective corresponding electrode…

      We are not aware of any current recommendations that state that the region of interest should be based on the site of stimulation. The advantage of TMS-EEG is that it allows characterisation of cortical excitability changes throughout the brain, not just the site of stimulation. We based our region of interest on a cluster-based permutation analysis, as recommended by Frömer, Maier, & Abdel Rahman, (2018)

      Frömer, R., Maier, M., & Abdel Rahman, R. (2018). Group-level EEG-processing pipeline for flexible single trial-based analyses including linear mixed models. Frontiers in neuroscience, 12, 48.

      Please explain where N45 values came from.

      The N45 was calculated using the TESA peak function (Rogasch et al., 2017) which identifies a data point which is larger/smaller than +/- 5 data points within a specified time window (e,g, 40-70ms post-TMS as in the present study). Where multiple peaks are found, the amplitude of the largest peak is returned. Where no peak is found, the amplitude at the specified latency is returned.

      Rogasch, N. C., Sullivan, C., Thomson, R. H., Rose, N. S., Bailey, N. W., Fitzgerald, P. B., ... & Hernandez-Pavon, J. C. (2017). Analysing concurrent transcranial magnetic stimulation and electroencephalographic data: A review and introduction to the open-source TESA software. Neuroimage, 147, 934-951.

      If only the cluster assessment was made please provide the comparison between P45 from the target TMS channel location in pre pain vs pain.

      We assume the reviewer is referring to the N45 rather than P45, and that by “target” TMS channel they are referring to the stimulated region.

      We first clarify that there is no “target” channel given the motor hotspot differs between individuals and so the channel that is closest to the site of stimulation will always differ.

      Secondly, as stated above, we are not aware of any current recommendations in TMS-EEG research that states that the region of interest for TEP analysis should be based on the site of stimulation. The advantage of TMS-EEG is that it allows characterisation of cortical excitability throughout the brain, not just the site of stimulation. If we based our ROI on the target channel only, we would lose valuable information about excitability changes occurring in other brain regions.

      Lastly, the N45 was localized at frontocentral electrodes, which is also where the cluster differences emerged. As such, we do not believe it would be informative to compare N45 peak amplitude at the region of stimulation.

      Also explain how correction for multiple comparisons was made

      Please refer to our response to the public review related to this issue.

      And report data from pain vs post-pain.

      The pain vs. post-pain comparisons are now reported in the Supplementary material.

      There is a strong possibility the response at N85 is an auditory /muscle signal. Please provide the location of this response.

      We have opted not to include the topography at 85ms in the main paper as it would introduce too much clutter into the figures (which are already very dense), and because the topography was very similar to the topography at 100ms. As an example, for the reviewer, in Author response image 1 we have shown the topography for the pre-pain condition of Experiment 1.

      Author response image 1.

      Experiment 2: I have a strong impression both active TEPs and sham TEPs were contaminated by auditory (and muscle) noise. Please explain.

      While it possible that auditory noise may have influenced TEPs in the active and sham groups, it does not impact the main conclusions of the paper, given that the purpose of the sham condition was to control for auditory and somatosensory stimulation resulting from TMS.

      While muscle activity may also affect have influenced the TEPs in active and sham conditions, we used fastICA in all conditions to suppress muscle activity. The fastICA algorithm (Rogasch et al., 2017) runs an independent component analysis on the data, and classifies components as neural, TMS-evoked muscle, eye movements and electrode noise, based on a set of heuristic thresholding rules (e.g., amplitude, frequency and topography of the components). Components classified as TMS-evoked muscle/other muscle artefacts are then removed. In the supplementary material, we further report that the number of components removed did not differ between conditions, suggesting the impact of muscle artefacts are not larger in some conditions vs. others.

      Rogasch, N. C., Sullivan, C., Thomson, R. H., Rose, N. S., Bailey, N. W., Fitzgerald, P. B., ... & Hernandez-Pavon, J. C. (2017). Analysing concurrent transcranial magnetic stimulation and electroencephalographic data: A review and introduction to the open-source TESA software. Neuroimage, 147, 934-951.

      Experiment 3: One interpretation can be that both supra and sub-threshold TMS were leading to somatosensory re-afferent responses, based on the way RMT was calculated, which hyper estimate the RMT and delivers in reality 2 types of supra-threshold stimulations. Please discuss

      Please refer to our response to the public review related to this issue.

      Please provide correlation between N45 size and MEPs amplitudes.

      This has now been included:

      “There was no conclusive evidence of any relationship between alterations in MEP amplitude during pain, and alterations in N100, N45 and P60 amplitude during pain (see supplementary material).”<br /> The supporting statistics for these analyses have been included in the supplementary material.

      DISCUSSION

      Line 303: " The present study determined whether acute experimental pain induces alterations in cortical inhibitory and/or facilitatory activity observed in TMS-evoked potentials".

      Well, no. The study assessed the N45, and was based on it. It did not really explore other metrics in a systematic fashion. P60 and N100 changes were not replicated in experiments 2 and 3..

      We assume the reviewer is stating that we did not assess other TEP peaks (such as the N15, P30 and P180). However, we did indeed assess these peaks in a systematic fashion. First, we identified the ROI by using a cluster-based analysis. This is a recommended approach when the ROI is unclear (Frömer, Maier, & Abdel Rahman, 2018). We then analysed the TEP representing the mean voltage across the electrodes within the cluster, and then identified any differences in all peaks between conditions (not just the N45). This has been made clearer in the manuscript.

      This has now been included:

      “For all experiments, the mean TEP waveform of any identified clusters from Experiment 1 were plotted, and peaks (e.g., N15, P30, N45, P60, N100) were identified using the TESA peak function (Rogasch et al., 2017)”

      Frömer, R., Maier, M., & Abdel Rahman, R. (2018). Group-level EEG-processing pipeline for flexible single trial-based analyses including linear mixed models. Frontiers in neuroscience, 12, 48.

      And the N45 is not related to facilitatory or inhibitory activity, it is a measure of an evoked response indicating excitability

      Evidence suggests the N45 is mediated by GABAAergic neurotransmission (inhibitory activity), as drugs which increase GABAA receptor activity increase the amplitude of the N45 (Premoli et al., 2014) and drugs which decrease GABAA receptor activity decrease the amplitude of the N45 (Darmani et al., 2016). As such, we and various other empirical papers (e.g., Bellardinelli et al., 2021; Noda et al., 2021; Opie at 2019 ) and review papers (Farzan & Bortoletto, 2022; Tremblay et al., 2019) have interpreted changes in the N45 peak as reflecting changes in cortical inhibitory/GABAA mediated activity.

      Premoli, I., Castellanos, N., Rivolta, D., Belardinelli, P., Bajo, R., Zipser, C., ... & Ziemann, U. (2014). TMS-EEG signatures of GABAergic neurotransmission in the human cortex. Journal of Neuroscience, 34(16), 5603-5612.

      Belardinelli, P., König, F., Liang, C., Premoli, I., Desideri, D., Müller-Dahlhaus, F., ... & Ziemann, U. (2021). TMS-EEG signatures of glutamatergic neurotransmission in human cortex. Scientific reports, 11(1), 8159.

      Darmani, G., Zipser, C. M., Böhmer, G. M., Deschet, K., Müller-Dahlhaus, F., Belardinelli, P., ... & Ziemann, U. (2016). Effects of the selective α5-GABAAR antagonist S44819 on excitability in the human brain: a TMS–EMG and TMS–EEG phase I study. Journal of Neuroscience, 36(49), 12312-12320.

      Noda, Y., Barr, M. S., Zomorrodi, R., Cash, R. F., Lioumis, P., Chen, R., ... & Blumberger, D. M. (2021). Single-pulse transcranial magnetic stimulation-evoked potential amplitudes and latencies in the motor and dorsolateral prefrontal cortex among young, older healthy participants, and schizophrenia patients. Journal of Personalized Medicine, 11(1), 54.

      Farzan, F., & Bortoletto, M. (2022). Identification and verification of a'true'TMS evoked potential in TMS-EEG. Journal of neuroscience methods, 378, 109651.

      Opie, G. M., Foo, N., Killington, M., Ridding, M. C., & Semmler, J. G. (2019). Transcranial magnetic stimulation-electroencephalography measures of cortical neuroplasticity are altered after mild traumatic brain injury. Journal of Neurotrauma, 36(19), 2774-2784.

      Tremblay, S., Rogasch, N. C., Premoli, I., Blumberger, D. M., Casarotto, S., Chen, R., ... & Daskalakis, Z. J. (2019). Clinical utility and prospective of TMS–EEG. Clinical Neurophysiology, 130(5), 802-844.

      Line 321: why have you not measured SEPs in experiment 3?

      It is not possible to directly measure the somatosensory evoked potentials resulting from a TMS pulse, given that the TMS pulse produces a range of signals including cortical activity, muscle/eye blink responses, auditory responses, somatosensory responses and other artefacts. While some researchers attempt to isolate the SEP from TMS using pre-processing methods such as ICA, others use control conditions such as sensory sham conditions (to control for the “tapping” artefact) or subthreshold intensity conditions (to control for reafferent muscle activity), as we have done in Experiment 2 and 3 of our study.

      We have now stated this in the manuscript:

      “As it is extremely challenging to isolate and filter these auditory and somatosensory evoked potentials using pre-processing pipelines, masking methods have been used to suppress these sensory inputs, (Ilmoniemi and Kičić, 2010; Massimini et al., 2005). However recent studies have shown that even when these methods are used, sensory contamination of TEPs is still present, as shown by commonalities in the signal between active and sensory sham conditions that mimic the auditory/somatosensory aspects of real TMS (Biabani et al., 2019; Conde et al., 2019; Rocchi et al., 2021). This has led many leading authors (Biabani et al., 2019; Conde et al., 2019) to recommend the use of sham conditions to control for sensory contamination”

      Line 365: SICI is dependent on GABAa activity. But the way the text is written if conveys the idea that TMS pulses "activate" GABA receptors, which is weird...Please rephrase.

      This has now been reworded.

      “SICI refers to the reduction in MEP amplitude to a TMS pulse that is preceded 1-5ms by a subthreshold pulse, with this reduction believed to be mediated by GABAA neurotransmission (Chowdhury et al., 2022)”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      -Key references Ye et al., 2022 and Che et al., 2019 need to be included in the reference list.

      These references have now been included in the reference list.

      -Heat pain stimuli and TMS stimuli are applied simultaneously. Sometimes the term "stimulus" is used without specifying whether it refers to TMS pulses or heat pain stimuli. Clarifying this whenever the word "stimulus" is used would enhance clarity for the reader.

      We have now clarified the use of the word “stimulus” throughout the paper.

      -Panels A-D in Figure 6 should be correctly labeled in the text and the figure legend.

      Figure 6 Panel labels have now been amended.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      Watanuki et al used metabolomic tracing strategies of U-13C6-labeled glucose and 13C-MFA to quantitatively identify the metabolic programs of HSCs during steady-state, cell-cycling, and OXPHOS inhibition. They found that 5-FU administration in mice increased anaerobic glycolytic flux and decreased ATP concentration in HSCs, suggesting that HSC differentiation and cell cycle progression are closely related to intracellular metabolism and can be monitored by measuring ATP concentration. Using the GO-ATeam2 system to analyze ATP levels in single hematopoietic cells, they found that PFKFB3 can accelerate glycolytic ATP production during HSC cell cycling by activating the rate-limiting enzyme PFK of glycolysis. Additionally, by using Pfkfb3 knockout or overexpressing strategies and conducting experiments with cytokine stimulation or transplantation stress, they found that PFKFB3 governs cell cycle progression and promotes the production of differentiated cells from HSCs in proliferative environments by activating glycolysis. Overall, in their study, Watanuki et al combined metabolomic tracing to quantitatively identify metabolic programs of HSCs and found that PFKFB3 confers glycolytic dependence onto HSCs to help coordinate their response to stress. Even so, several important questions need to be addressed as below:

      We sincerely appreciate the constructive feedback from the reviewer. Additional experiments and textual improvements have been made to the manuscript based on your valuable suggestions. In particular, the major revisions are as follows: First, we investigated the extent to which other metabolites, not limited to the glycolytic system, affect metabolism in HSCs after 5-FU treatment. Second, the extent to which PFKFB3 contributes to the expansion of the HSPC pool in the bone marrow was adjusted to make the description more accurate based on the data. Finally, we overexpressed PFKFB3 in HSCs derived from GO-ATeam2 mice and confirmed that PRMT1 inhibition did not reduce the ATP concentration. We believe that the reviewer's valuable comments have further deepened our knowledge of the significance of glycolytic activation by PFKFB3 that we have demonstrated. Our response to the "Recommendations for Authors" is listed first, followed by our responses to all "Public Review" comments as follows:

      (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1. The methods used in key experiments should be described in more detail. For example, in the section on ‘Conversion of GO-ATeam2 fluorescence to ATP concentration’, the knock-in strategy for GO-ATeam2 should be described, as well as U-13C6 -glucose tracer assays.

      As per your recommendation, we have described the key experimental method in more detail in the revised manuscript: the GO-ATeam2 knock-in method was reported by Yamamoto et al. 1. Briefly, they used a CAG promoter-based knock-in strategy targeting the Rosa26 locus to generate GO-ATeam2 knock-in mice. A description of the method has been added to Methods and the reference has been added to the citation.

      For the U-13C6-glucose tracer analysis, the following points were added to describe the details of the analysis: First, a note was added that the number of cells used for the in vitro tracer analysis was the number of cells used for each sample. Second, we added the solution from which the cells were collected by sorting. We added that the incubation was performed under 1% O2 and 5% CO2.

      1. Confusing image label of Supplemental Figure 1H should be corrected in line 253.

      We have corrected the incorrect figure caption on line 217 in the revised manuscript to "Supplemental Figure 1N" as you suggested.

      1. The percentage of the indicated cell population should also be shown in Figure S1B.

      As you indicated, we have included the percentages for each population in Supplemental Figure 1B.

      Author response image 1.

      1. Please pay attention to the small size of the marks in the graph, such as in Figure S1F and so on.

      As you indicated, we have corrected the very small text contained in Figure S1F. Similar corrections have been made to Figures S1B and S5A.

      1. Please pay attention to the label of line in Figure S6A-D.

      Thank you very much for the advice. We have added line labels to the graph in the original Figures S6A–D.

      (Specific comments)

      1. Based on previous reports, the authors expanded the LSK gate to include as many HSCs as possible (Supplemental Figure 1B). However, while they showed the gating strategy on Day 6 after 5-FU treatment, results from other time-points should also be displayed to ensure the strict selection of time-points.

      Thank you for pointing this out. First, we did not enlarge the Sca-1 gating in this study. We apologize for any confusion caused by the incomplete description. The gating of c-Kit is based on that shown by Umemoto et al (Figure EV1A) 2, who used 250 mg/kg 5-FU, so their c-Kit reduction is more pronounced than ours.

      We followed this study and compared c-Kit expression in Lin-Sca-1+CD150+CD48-EPCR+ gates to BMMNCs on day 6 after 5-FU administration (150 mg/kg). The results are shown below.

      Author response image 2.

      Since the MFI of c-Kit was downregulated, we used gating that extended the c-Kit gate to lower-expression regions on day 6 after 5-FU administration (revised Figure S1C). At other time points, LSK gating was the same as in the PBS-treated group, as noted in the Methods.

      1. In Figure 1, the authors examined the metabolite changes on Day 6 after 5-FU treatment. However, it is important to consider whether there are any dynamic adjustments to metabolism during the early and late stages of 5-FU treatment in HSCs compared to PBS treatment, in order to coordinate cell homeostasis despite no significant changes in cell cycle progression at other time-points.

      Thank you for pointing this out. Below are the results of the GO-ATeam2 analysis during the very early phase (day 3) and late phase (day 15) after 5-FU administration (revised Figures S7A–H).

      Author response image 3.

      In the very early phase, such as day 3 after 5-FU administration, cell cycle progression had not started (Figure S1C) and was not preceded by metabolic changes. Meanwhile, in the late phase, such as day 15 after 5-FU administration, the cell cycle and metabolism returned to a steady state. In summary, the timing of the metabolic changes coincided with that of cell cycle progression. This point is essential for discussing the cell cycle-dependent metabolic system of HSCs and has been newly included in the Results (page 11, lines 321-323).

      1. As is well known, ATP can be produced through various pathways, including glycolysis, the TCA cycle, the PPP, NAS, lipid metabolism, amino acid metabolism and so on. Therefore, it is important to investigate whether treatment with 5-FU or oligomycin affects these other metabolic pathways in HSCs.

      As the reviewer pointed out, ATP production by systems other than the glycolytic system of HSCs is also essential. In this revised manuscript, we examined the effects of the FAO inhibitor (Etomoxir, 100 µM) and the glutaminolysis inhibitor 6-diazo-5-oxo-L-norleucine (DON, 2mM) alone or in combination on the ATP concentration of HSCs after PBS or 5-FU treatment. As shown below, there was no apparent decrease in ATP concentration (revised Figures S7J–M).

      Author response image 4.

      Fatty acid β-oxidation activity was also measured in 5-FU-treated HSCs using the fluorescent probe FAOBlue and was unchanged compared to PBS-treated HSCs (revised Figure S7N).

      Author response image 5.

      Notably, the addition of 100 µM etomoxir plus glucose and Pfkfb3 inhibitors resulted in a rapid decrease in ATP concentration in HSCs (revised Figures S7O–P). This indicates that etomoxir partially mimics the effect of oligomycin, suggesting that at a steady state, OXPHOS is driven by FAO, but can be compensated by the acceleration of the glycolytic system by Pfkfb3. Meanwhile, the exposure of HSCs to Pfkfb3 inhibitors in addition to 2 mM DON, which is an extremely high dose considering that the Ki value of DON for glutaminase is 6 µM, did not reduce ATP (revised Figures S7O–P). This suggests that ATP production from glutaminolysis is limited in HSCs at a steady state.

      Author response image 6.

      These points suggest that OXPHOS is driven by fatty acids at a steady state, but unlike the glycolytic system, FAO is not further activated by HSCs after 5-FU treatment. The results of these analyses and related descriptions are included in the revised manuscript (page 11, lines 332-344).

      1. In part 2, they showed that oligomycin treatment of HSCs exhibited activation of the glycolytic system, but what about the changes in ATP concentration under oligomycin treatment? Are other metabolic systems affected by oligomycin treatment?

      Thank you for your thoughtful comments. The relevant results we have obtained so far with the GO-ATeam2 system are as follows: First, OXPHOS inhibition in the absence of glucose significantly decreases the ATP concentration of HSCs (Figure 4C). Meanwhile, OXPHOS inhibition in the presence of glucose maintains the ATP concentration of HSCs (Figure 5B). Since it is difficult to imagine a completely glucose-free environment in vivo, it is thought that ATP concentration is maintained by the acceleration of the glycolytic system even under hypoxic or other conditions that inhibit OXPHOS.

      Meanwhile, glucose tracer analysis shows that OXPHOS inhibition suppresses nucleic acid synthesis (NAS) except for the activation of the glycolytic system (Figures 2C–F). This is because phosphate groups derived from ATP are transferred to nucleotide mono-/di-phosphate in NAS, but OXPHOS, the main source of ATP production, is impaired, along with the enzyme conjugated with OXPHOS in the process of NAS (dihydroorotate dehydrogenase, DHODH). We have added a new paragraph in the Discussion section (page 17, lines 511-515) to provide more insight to the reader by summarizing and discussing these points.

      1. In Figure 5M, it would be helpful to include a control group that was not treated with 2-DG. Additionally, if Figure 5L is used as the control, it is unclear why the level of ATP does not show significant downregulation after 2-DG treatment. Similarly, in Figure 5O, a control group with no glucose addition should be included.

      Thank you for your advice. The experiments corresponding to the control groups in Figures 5M and O were in Figures 5L and N, respectively, but we have combined them into one graph (revised Figures 5L–M). The results more clearly show that PFKFB3 overexpression enhances sensitivity to 2-DG, but also enhances glycolytic activation upon oligomycin administration.

      Author response image 7.

      1. In this study, their findings suggest that PFKFB3 is required for glycolysis of HSCs under stress, including transplantation. In Figure 7B, the results showed that donor-derived chimerism in PB cells decreased relative to that in the WT control group during the early phase (1 month post-transplant) but recovered thereafter. Although the transplantation cell number is equal in two groups of donor cells, it is unclear why the donor-derived cell count decreased in the 2-week post-transplantation period and recovered thereafter in the Pfkgb3 KO group. Therefore, they should provide an explanation for this. Additionally, they only detected the percentage of donor-derived cells in PB but not from BM, which makes it difficult to support the argument for Increasing the HSPC pool.

      As pointed out by the reviewer, it is interesting to note that the decrease in peripheral blood chimerism in the PFKFB3 knockout is limited to immediately after transplantation and then catches up with the control group (Figure 7B). We attribute this to the fact that HSPC proliferation is delayed immediately after transplantation in PFKFB3 deficiency, but after a certain time, PB cells produced by the delayed proliferating HSPCs are supplied. In support of this, the PFKFB3 knockout HSPCs did not exhibit increased cell death after transplantation (Figure 7K), while a delayed cell cycle was observed (Figures 7G–J). A description of this point has been added to the Discussion (page 19, lines 573-579).

      In addition, the knockout efficiency in bone marrow cells could not be verified because the number of cells required for KO efficiency analysis was not available. Therefore, we have added a statement on this point and have toned down our overall claim regarding the extent to which PFKFB3 is involved in the expansion of the HSPC pool (page 15, lines 474-476).

      1. In Figure 7E, they collected the BM reconstructed with Pfkfb3- or Rosa-KO HSPCs two months after transplantation, and then tested their resistance to 5-FU. However, the short duration of the reconstruction period makes it difficult to draw conclusions about the effects on steady-state blood cell production.

      We agree that we cannot conclude from this experiment alone that PFKFB3 is completely unnecessary in steady state because, as you pointed out, the observation period of the experiment in Figure 7E is not long. We have toned down the claim by stating that PFKFB3 is only less necessary in steady-state HSCs compared to proliferative HSCs (page 15, lines 460-461).

      1. PFK is allosterically activated by PFKFB, and other members of the PFKFB family could also participate in the glycolytic program. Therefore, they should investigate their function in contributing to glycolytic plasticity in HSCs during proliferation. Additionally, they should also analyze the protein expression and modification levels of other members. Although PFKFB3 is the most favorable for PFK activation, the role of other members should also be explored in HSC cell cycling to provide sufficient reasoning for choosing PFKFB3.

      To further justify why we chose PFKFB3 among the PFKFB family members, we reviewed our data and the publicly available Gene Expression Commons (GEXC) 3. PFKFB3 is the most highly expressed member of the PFKFB family in HSCs (revised Figure 4F), and its expression increases with proliferation (Author response image 9). In addition to this, we have also cited the literature 4 indicating that AZ PFKFB3 26 is a Pfkfb3-specific inhibitor that we used in this paper, and added a note to this point (that it is specific) (page 11, lines 327-329). Through these revisions, we sought to strengthen the rationale for Pfkfb3 as the primary target of the analysis.

      Author response image 8.

      Author response image 9.

      1. In this study, the authors identified PRMT1 as the upstream regulator of PFKFB3 that is involved in the glycolysis activation of HSCs. However, PRMT1 is also known to participate in various transcriptional activations. Thus, it is important to determine whether PRMT1 affects glycolysis through transcriptional regulation or through its direct regulation of PFKFB3? Additionally, the authors should investigate whether PRMT1i inhibits ATP production in normal HSCs. Moreover, could we combine Figure 6I and 6J for analysis. Finally, the authors could conduct additional rescue experiments to demonstrate that the effect of PRMT1 inhibitors on ATP production can be rescued by overexpression of PFKFB3.

      Although PRMT1 inhibition reduced m-PFKFB3 levels in HSCs, 5-FU treatment also reduced or did not alter Pfkfb3 transcript levels (Figures 6B, G) and the expression of genes such as Hoxa7/9/10, Itga2b, and Nqo1, which are representative transcriptional targets of PRMT1, in proliferating HSCs after 5-FU treatment (revised Figure S9).

      Author response image 10.

      These results suggest that PRMT1 promotes PFKFB3 methylation, which increases independently of transcription in HSCs after 5-FU treatment.

      A summary analysis of the original Figures 6I and 6J is shown below (revised Figure 6I).

      Author response image 11.

      Finally, we tested whether the inhibition of the glycolytic system and the decrease in ATP concentration due to PRMT1 inhibition could be rescued by the retroviral overexpression of PFKFB3. We found that PFKFB3 overexpression did not decrease the ATP concentration in HSCs due to PRMT1 inhibition (revised Figure 6J). Therefore, PFKFB3 overexpression mitigated the decrease in ATP concentration caused by PRMT1 inhibition. These data and related statements have been added to the revised manuscript (page 14, lines 427-428).

      Author response image 12.

      Reviewer #2:

      In the manuscript Watanuki et al. want to define the metabolic profile of HSCs in stress/proliferative (myelosuppression with 5-FU), and mitochondrial inhibition and homeostatic conditions. Their conclusions are that during proliferation HSCs rely more on glycolysis (as other cell types) while HSCs in homeostatic conditions are mostly dependent on mitochondrial metabolism. Mitochondrial inhibition is used to demonstrate that blocking mitochondrial metabolism results in similar features of proliferative conditions.

      The authors used state-of-the-art technologies that allow metabolic readout in a limited number of cells like rare HSCs. These applications could be of help in the field since one of the major issues in studying HSCs metabolism is the limited sensitivity of the“"standard”" assays, which make them not suitable for HSC studies.

      However, the observations do not fully support the claims. There are no direct evidence/experiments tackling cell cycle state and metabolism in HSCs. Often the observations for their claims are indirect, while key points on cell cycle state-metabolism, OCR analysis should be addressed directly.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's constructive comments. Thank you for highlighting the importance of the highly sensitive metabolic assay developed in this study and the findings based on it. Meanwhile, the reviewer's comments have made us aware of areas where we can further improve this manuscript. In particular, in the revised manuscript, we have performed further studies to demonstrate the link between the cell cycle and metabolic state. Specifically, we further subdivided HSCs by the uptake of in vivo-administered 2-NBDG and performed cell cycle analysis. Next, HSCs after PBS or 5-FU treatment were analyzed by a Mito Stress test using the Seahorse flux analyzer, including ECAR and OCR, and a more direct relationship between the cell cycle state and the metabolic system was found. We believe that the reviewer's valuable suggestions have helped us clarify more directly the importance of the metabolic state of HSCs in response to cell cycle and stress that we wanted to show and emphasize the usefulness of the GO-ATeam2 system. Our response to "Recommendations For The Authors" is listed first, followed by our responses to all comments in "Public Review" as follows:

      (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In general, I believe it would be important:

      1. to directly associate cell cycle state with metabolic state. For example, by sorting HSC (+/- 5FU) based on their cell cycle state (exploiting the mouse model presented in the manuscript or by defining G0/G1/G2-S-M via Pyronin/Hoechst staining which allow to sort live cells) and follow the fate of radiolabeled glucose.

      Thank you for raising these crucial points. Unfortunately, it was difficult to perform the glucose tracer analysis by preparing HSCs with different cell cycle states as you suggested due to the amount of work involved. In particular, in the 5-FU group, more than 60 mice per group were originally required for an experiment, and further cell cycle-based purification would require many times that number of mice, which we felt was unrealistic under current technical standards. As an alternative, we administered 2-NBDG to mice and fractionated HSCs at the 2-NBDG fluorescence level for cell cycle analysis. The results are shown below (revised Figure S1M). Notably, even in the PBS-treated group, HSCs with high 2-NBDG uptake were more proliferative than those with low 2-NBDG uptake and are comparable to HSCs after 5-FU treatment, although the overall population of HSCs exiting the G0 phase and entering the G1 phase increased after 5-FU treatment. In both PBS/5-FU-treated groups, these large differences in cell cycle glucose utilization suggest a direct link between HSC proliferation and glycolysis activation. If a more sensitive type of glucose tracer analysis becomes available in the future, it may be possible to directly address the reviewer's comments. We see this as a topic for the future. The descriptions of the above findings and perspectives have been added to the Results and Discussion section (page 7, lines 208-214, page 20, lines 607-610).

      Author response image 13.

      1. Use other radio labeled substrates (fatty acid, glutamate)

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. While this is an essential point for future studies, we believe it is not the primary focus of the paper. We are planning another research project on tracer analysis using labeled fatty acids and glutamates, which we will report on in the near future. We have clearly stated in the Abstract and Introduction of the revised manuscript, that the focus of this study is on changes in glucose metabolism when HSCs are stressed (page 3, line 75 and 87, page 5, lines 135).

      Instead, we added the following analyses of metabolic changes in fatty acids and glutamate using the GO-ATeam2 system. HSCs derived from GO-ATeam2 mice treated with PBS or 5-FU were used to measure changes in ATP concentrations after exposure to the fatty acid beta-oxidation (FAO) inhibitor etomoxir and the glutaminolysis inhibitor 6-diazo-5-oxo-L-norleucine (DON). Etomoxir was used at 100 µM, a concentration that inhibits FAO without inhibiting mitochondrial electron transfer complex I, as previously reported 5. DON was used at 2 mM, a concentration that sufficiently inhibits the enzyme as the Ki for glutaminase is 6 µM. In this experiment, etomoxir alone, DON alone, or etomoxir and DON in combination did not decrease the ATP concentration of HSCs in the PBS and 5-FU groups (revised Figures S7J–M), suggesting that FAO and glutaminolysis were not essential for ATP production in HSCs in the short term. Thus, according to the analysis using the GO-Ateam2 system, HSCs exposed to acute stresses change the efficiency of glucose utilization (accelerated glycolytic ATP production) rather than other energy sources. Since there are reports that FAO and glutaminolysis are required for HSC maintenance in the long term 5,6, compensatory pathways may be able to maintain ATP levels in the short term. A description of these points has been added to the Discussion (page 11, lines 332-344).

      Author response image 14.

      1. Include OCR analyses.

      In addition to the ECAR data of the Mito Stress test (original Figures 2G–H), OCR data were added to the revised manuscript (revised Figures 2H, S3D). Compared to c-Kit+ myeloid progenitors (LKS- cells), HSC showed a similar increase in ECAR, while the decrease in OCR was relatively limited. A possible explanation for this is that glycolytic and mitochondrial metabolism are coupled in c-Kit+ myeloid progenitors, whereas they are decoupled in HSCs. This is also suggested by the glucose plus oligomycin experiment in Figures 5B, C, and S6A–D (orange lines). In summary, in HSCs, glycolytic and mitochondrial ATP production are decoupled and can maintain ATP levels by glycolytic ATP production alone, whereas in progenitors including GMPs, the two ATP production systems are constantly coupled, and glycolysis alone cannot maintain ATP concentration. We have added descriptions of these points in the Results and Discussion section (page 8, lines 240-243, page 18, lines 558-561).

      Author response image 15.

      Next, a Mito Stress test was performed using HSCs derived from PBS- or 5-FU-treated mice in the presence or absence of oligomycin (revised Figures 1G–H, S3A–B). Without oligomycin treatment, ECAR in 5-FU-treated HSCs was higher than in PBS-treated HSCs, and OCR was unchanged. Oligomycin treatment increased ECAR in both PBS- and 5-FU-treated HSCs, whereas OCR was unchanged in PBS-treated HSCs, but significantly decreased in 5-FU-treated HSCs. Changes in ECAR in response to oligomycin differed between HSC proliferation or differentiation: ECAR increased in 5-FU-treated HSCs but not in LKS- progenitors (original Figures 2G–H). This suggests a metabolic feature of HSCs in which the coupling of OXPHOS with glycolysis seen in LKS- cells is not essential in HSCs even after cell cycle entry. The results and discussion of this experiment have been added to page 7, lines 194-201 and page 18, lines 558-561).

      Author response image 16.

      1. Correlate proliferation-mitochondrial inhibition-metabolic state

      We agree that it is important to clarify this point. First, OXPHOS inhibition and proliferation similarly accelerate glycolytic ATP production with PFKFB3 (Figures 4G, I, and 5F–I). Meanwhile, oligomycin treatment rapidly decreases ATP in HSCs with or without 5-FU administration (Figure 4C). These results suggest that OXPHOS is a major source of ATP production both at a steady state and during proliferation, even though the analysis medium is pre-saturated with hypoxia similar to that in vivo. This has been added to the Discussion section (page 17, lines 520-523).

      1. Tune down the claim on HSCs in homeostatic conditions since from the data it seems that HSCs rely more on anaerobic glycolysis.

      Thanks for the advice. The original Figures S2C, D, F, and G show that HSC is dependent on the anaerobic glycolytic system even at a steady state, so we have toned down our claims (page 7, lines 192-194).

      1. For proliferative HSCs mitochondrial are key. When you block mitochondria with oligomycin there's the biggest drop in ATP.

      In the revised manuscript, we have tried to highlight the key findings that you have pointed out. First, we mentioned in the Discussion (page 17, lines 523-525) that previous studies suggested the importance of mitochondria in proliferating HSCs. Meanwhile, the GO-ATeam2 and glucose tracer analyses in this study newly revealed that the glycolytic system activated by PFKFB3 is activated during the proliferative phase, as shown in Figure 4C. We also confirmed that mitochondrial ATP production is vital in proliferating HSCs, and we hope to clarify the balance between ATP-producing pathways and nutrient sources in future studies.

      1. To better clarify this point authors, authors should do experiments in hypoxic conditions and compare it to oligomycin treatment and showing that mito-inhibition acts differently on HSCs (considering that all these drugs are toxic for mitochondria and induce rapidly stress responses ex: mitophagy).

      We apologize for any confusion caused by not clearly describing the experimental conditions. As pointed out by the reviewer, we also recognize the importance of experiments in a hypoxic environment. All GO-ATeam2 analyses were performed in a medium saturated sufficiently under hypoxic conditions and analyzed within minutes, so we believe that the medium did not become oxygenated (page S5-S6, lines 160-163 in the Methods). Despite being conducted under such hypoxic conditions, the substantial decrease in ATP after oligomycin treatment is intriguing (original Figures 4C, 5B, 5C). The p50 value of mitochondria (the partial pressure of oxygen at which respiration is half maximal) is 0.1 kPa, which is less than 0.1% of the oxygen concentration at atmospheric pressure 7. Thus, biochemically, it is consistent that OXPHOS can maintain sufficient activity even in a hypoxic environment like the bone marrow. We are currently embarking on a study to determine ATP concentration in physiological hypoxic conditions using in vivo imaging within the bone marrow, which we hope to report in a separate project. We have discussed these points, technical limitations, and perspectives in the Discussion section (page 20, lines 610-612).

      • In Figure 1 C, D, E and F, the comparison should be done as unpaired t test and the control group should not be 1 as the cells comes from different individuals.

      Thank you very much for pointing this out. We have reanalyzed and revised the figures (revised Figures 1C–F)

      Author response image 17.

      • In Figure S2A, the post-sorting bar of 6PG, R5P and S7P are missing.

      Metabolites below the detection threshold (post-sorting samples of 6PG, R5P, and S7P) are now indicated as N.D. (not detected) (revised Figure S2A).

      Author response image 18.

      • In the 2NBDG experiments, authors should add the appropriate controls, since it has been shown that 2NBDG cellular uptake do not correctly reflect glucose uptake (Sinclair LV, Immunometabolism 2020) (a cell type dependent variations) thus inhibitors of glucose transporters should be added as controls (cytochalasin B; 4,6-O-ethylidene-a-D-glucose) it would be quite challenging to test it in vivo but it would be sufficient to show that in vitro in the different HSPCs analyzed.

      We appreciate the essential technical point raised by the reviewer. In the revised manuscript, we performed a 2-NBDG assay with cytochalasin B and phloretin as negative controls. After PBS treatment, 2-NBDG uptake was higher in 5-FU-treated HSCs compared to untreated HSCs. This increase was inhibited by both cytochalasin B and phloretin. In PBS-treated HSCs, cytochalasin B did not downregulate 2-NBDG uptake, whereas phloretin did. Although cytochalasin B inhibits glucose transporters (GLUTs), it is also an inhibitor of actin polymerization. Therefore, its inhibitory effect on GLUTs may be weaker than that of phloretin. We have revised the figure (revised Figure S1L) and added the corresponding description (page 7, lines 207-208).

      Author response image 19.

      • S5C: authors should show the cell number for each population. If there's a decreased in % in Lin- that will be reflected in all HSPCs. Comparing the proportion of the cells doesn't show the real impact on HSPCs.

      Thank you for your insightful point. In the revision, we compared the numbers, not percentages, of HSPCs and found no difference in the number of cells in the major HSPC fractions in Lin-. The figure has been revised (revised Figure S6C) and the corresponding description has been added (page 10, lines 296-299).

      Author response image 20.

      Minor:

      1. In S1 F-G is not indicated in which day post 5FU injection is done the analysis. I assume on day 6 but it should be indicated in the figure legend and/or text.

      Thank you for pointing this out. As you assumed, the analysis was performed on day 6. The description has been added to the legend of the revised Figure S1G.

      1. S1K is not described in the text. What are proliferative and quiescence-maintaining conditions? The analyses are done by flow using LKS SLAM markers after culture? How long was the culture?

      Thank you for your comments. First, the figure citation on line 250 was incorrect and has been corrected to Figure S1N. Regarding the proliferative and quiescence-maintaining conditions, we have previously reported on these 8. In brief, these are culture conditions that maintain HSC activity at a high level while allowing for the proliferation or maintenance of HSCs in quiescence, achieved by culturing under fatty acid-rich, hypoxic conditions with either high or low cytokine concentrations. Analysis was performed after one week of culture, with the HSC number determined by flow cytometry based on the LSK-SLAM marker. While these are mentioned in the Methods section, we have added a description in the main text to highlight these points for the reader (page 7, lines 214-217).

      1. In Figure 5G, why does the blue line (PFKFB3 inhibitor) go up in the end of the real-time monitoring? Does it mean that other compensatory pathway is turned on?

      As you have pointed out, we cannot rule out the possibility that other unknown compensatory ATP production pathways were activated. We have added a note in the Discussion section to address this (page 18, lines 555-556).

      1. In Figure S6H&J, the reduction is marginal. Does it mean that PKM2 is not important for ATP production in HSCs?

      The activity of the inhibitor is essential in the GO-ATeam2 analysis. The commercially available PKM2 inhibitors have a higher IC50 value (IC50 = 2.95 μM in this case). Nevertheless, the effect of reducing the ATP concentration was observed in progenitor cells, but not in HSCs. The report by Wang et al. 9 on the analysis using a PKM2-deficient model suggests a stronger effect on progenitor cells than on HSCs. Our results are similar to those of the previous report.

      (Specific comments)

      Specifically, there are several major points that rise concerns about the claims:

      1. The gating strategy to select HSCs with enlarged Sca1 gating is not convincing. I understand the rationale to have a sufficient number of cells to analyze, however this gating strategy should be applied also in the control group. From the FACS plot seems that there are more HSCs upon 5FU treatment (Figure S1b). How that is possible? Is it because of the 20% more of cycling cells at day 6? To prove that this gating strategy still represents a pure HSC population, authors should compare the blood reconstitution capability of this population with a "standard" gated population. If the starting population is highly heterogeneous then the metabolic readout could simply reflect cell heterogeneity.

      Thank you for pointing this out. First, we did not enlarge the Sca-1 gating in this study. We apologize for any confusion caused by the incomplete description. The gating of c-Kit is based on that shown by Umemoto et al (Figure EV1A) 2, who used 250 mg/kg 5-FU, so their c-Kit reduction is more pronounced than ours.

      We followed this study and compared c-Kit expression in the Lin-Sca-1+CD150+CD48-EPCR+ gates to BMMNCs on day 6 after 5-FU administration (150 mg/kg). The results are shown below.

      Author response image 21.

      Since the MFI of c-Kit was downregulated, we used gating that extended the c-Kit gate to lower expression regions on day 6 after 5-FU administration (revised Figure S1C).

      At other time points, LSK gating was the same as in the PBS-treated group, as noted in the Methods.

      The reason why the number of HSCs appears to be higher in the 5-FU group is because most of the differentiated blood cells were lost due to 5-FU administration and the same number of cells as in the PBS group were analyzed by FACS, resulting in a relatively higher number of HSCs. The legend of Figure S1 shows that the number of HSCs in both the PBS and 5-FU groups appeared to increase because the same number of BMMNCs was obtained at the time of analysis (page S22, lines 596-598).

      Regarding cellular heterogeneity, from a metabolic point of view, the heterogeneity in HSCs is rather reduced by 5-FU administration. As shown in Figure S3A–C, this is simulated under stress conditions, such as after 5-FU administration or during OXPHOS inhibition, where the flux variability in each enzymatic reaction is significantly reduced. GO-ATeam2 analysis after 5-FU treatment showed no increase in cell population variability. After 2-DG treatment, ATP concentrations in HSCs were widely distributed from 0 mM to 0.8 mM in the PBS group, while more than 80% of those in the 5-FU group were less than 0.4 mM (Figures 4B, D). HSCs may have a certain metabolic diversity at a steady state, but under stress conditions, they may switch to a more specialized metabolism with less cellular heterogeneity in order to adapt.

      1. S2 does not show major differences before and after sorting. However, a key metabolite like Lactate is decreased, which is also one of the most present. Wouldn't that mean that HSCs once they move out from the hypoxic niche, they decrease lactate production? Do they decrease anaerobic glycolysis? How can quiescent HSC mostly rely on OXPHOS being located in hypoxic niche?

      2. Since HSCs in the niche are located in hypoxic regions of the bone marrow, would that not mimic OxPhos inhibition (oligomycin)? Would that not mean that HSCs in the niche are more glycolytic (anaerobic glycolysis)?

      3. In Figure 5B, the orange line (Glucose+OXPHOS inhibition) remains stable, which means HSCs prefer to use glycolysis when OXPHOS is inhibited. Which metabolic pathway would HSCs use under hypoxic conditions? As HSCs resides in hypoxic niche, does it mean that these steady-state HSCs prefer to use glycolysis for ATP production? As mentioned before, mitochondrial inhibition can be comparable at the in vivo condition of the niche, where low pO2 will "inhibit" mitochondria metabolism.

      Thank you for the first half of comment 2 on the technical features of our approach. First, as you have pointed out, there is minimal variation and stable detection of many metabolites before and after sorting (Figure S2A), suggesting that isolation from the hypoxic niche and sorting stress do not significantly alter metabolite detection performance. This is consistent with a previous report by Jun et al. 10. Meanwhile, lactate levels decreased by sorting. Therefore, if the activity of anaerobic glycolysis was suppressed in stressed HSCs, it may be difficult to detect these metabolic changes with our tracer analysis. However, in this study, several glycolytic metabolites, including an increase in lactate, were detected in HSCs from 5-FU-treated mice compared with HSCs from PBS-treated mice that were similarly sorted and prepared, suggesting an increase in glycolytic activity. In other words, we may have been fortunate to detect the stress-induced activation of the glycolytic system beyond the characteristic of our analysis system that lactate levels tend to appear lower than they are. Given that damage to the bone marrow hematopoiesis tends to alleviate the low-oxygen status of the niche 11, we postulate that this upregulated aerobic glycolysis arises intrinsically in HSCs rather than from external conditions.

      The second half of comment 2, and comments 7 and 10, are essential and overlapping comments and will be answered together. Although genetic analyses have shown that HSCs produce ATP by anaerobic glycolysis in low-oxygen environments 9,12, our GO-ATeam2 analysis in this study confirmed that HSCs also generate ATP via mitochondria. This is also supported by Ansó's prior findings where the knockout of the Rieske iron–sulfur protein (RISP), a constituent of the mitochondrial electron transport chain, impairs adult HSC quiescence and bone marrow repopulation 13. Bone marrow is a physiologically hypoxic environment (9.9–32.0 mmHg 11). However, the p50 value of mitochondria (the partial pressure of oxygen at which respiration is half maximal) is below 0.1% oxygen concentration at atmospheric pressure (less than 1 mmHg) 7. This suggests that OXPHOS can retain sufficient activity even under physiologically hypoxic conditions. We are currently initiating efforts to discern ATP concentrations in vivo within the bone marrow under physiological hypoxia. This will be reported in a separate project in the future. Admittedly, when we began this research, we did not anticipate the significant mitochondrial reliance of HSCs. As we previously reported, the metabolic uncoupling of glycolysis and mitochondria 12 may enable HSCs to activate only glycolysis, and not mitochondria, under stress conditions such as post-5-FU administration, suggesting a unique metabolic trait of HSCs. We have included these technical limitations and perspectives in the Discussion section (page 17, lines 520-523).

      1. The authors performed challenging experiments to track radiolabeled glucose, which are quite remarkable. However, the data do not fully support the conclusions. Mitochondrial metabolism in HSCs can be supported by fatty acid and glutamate, thus authors should track the fate of other energy sources to fully discriminate the glycolysis vs mito-metabolism dependency. From the data on S2 and Fig1 1C-F, the authors can conclude that upon 5FU treatment HSCs increase glycolytic rate.

      2. FIG.2B-C: Increase of Glycolysis upon oligomycin treatment is common in many different cell types. As explained before, other radiolabeled substrates should be used to understand the real effect on mitochondria metabolism.

      Thank you for your suggestion. While this is essential for future studies, we believe it is not the primary focus of the paper. We are planning another research project on tracer analysis using labeled fatty acids and glutamates, which we will report on in the near future. We have clearly stated in the Abstract and Introduction of the revised manuscript that the focus of this study is on changes in glucose metabolism when HSCs are stressed (page 3, line 75 and 87, page 5, lines 135).

      Instead, we have added the following analyses of metabolic changes in fatty acids and glutamate using the GO-ATeam2 system: HSCs derived from GO-ATeam2 mice treated with PBS or 5-FU were used to measure changes in ATP concentrations after exposure to the fatty acid beta-oxidation (FAO) inhibitor etomoxir and the glutaminolysis inhibitor 6-diazo-5-oxo-L-norleucine (DON). Etomoxir was used at 100 µM, a concentration that inhibits FAO without inhibiting mitochondrial electron transfer complex I, as previously reported 5. DON was used at 2 mM, a concentration that sufficiently inhibits the enzyme as the Ki for glutaminase is 6 µM. In this experiment, etomoxir alone, DON alone, or etomoxir and DON in combination did not decrease the ATP concentration of HSCs in the PBS and 5-FU groups (revised Figures S7J–M), suggesting that FAO and glutaminolysis were not essential for ATP production in HSCs in the short term. Thus, according to the analysis using the GO-Ateam2 system, HSCs exposed to acute stresses change the efficiency of glucose utilization (accelerated glycolytic ATP production) rather than other energy sources. Since there are reports that FAO and glutaminolysis are required for HSC maintenance in the long term 5,6, compensatory pathways may be able to maintain ATP levels in the short term. A description of these points has been added to the Discussion (page 17, lines 525-527).

      Author response image 22.

      Fatty acid β-oxidation activity was also measured in 5-FU-treated HSCs using the fluorescent probe FAOBlue and was unchanged compared to PBS-treated HSCs (revised Figure S7N).

      Author response image 23.

      Notably, the addition of 100 µM etomoxir plus glucose and Pfkfb3 inhibitors resulted in a rapid decrease in ATP concentration in HSCs (revised Figures S7O–P). This indicates that etomoxir partially mimics the effect of oligomycin, suggesting that at a steady state, OXPHOS is driven by FAO, but can be compensated by the acceleration of the glycolytic system by Pfkfb3. Meanwhile, the exposure of HSCs to Pfkfb3 inhibitors in addition to 2 mM DON did not reduce ATP (revised Figures S7O–P). This suggests that ATP production from glutaminolysis is limited in HSCs at a steady state.

      Author response image 24.

      These points suggest that OXPHOS is driven by fatty acids at a steady state, but unlike the glycolytic system, FAO is not further activated by HSCs after 5-FU treatment. The results of these analyses and related descriptions are included in the revised manuscript (page 11, lines 332-344).

      1. In Figure S1, 5-FU leads to the induction of cycling HSCs and in figure 1, 5-FU results in higher activation of glycolysis. Would it be possible to correlate these two phenotypes together? For example, by sorting NBDG+ cells and checking the cell cycle status of these cells?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments. We administered 2-NBDG to mice and fractionated HSCs at the 2-NBDG fluorescence level for cell cycle analysis. The results are shown below (revised Figure S1M). Notably, even in the PBS-treated group, HSCs with high 2-NBDG uptake were more proliferative than HSCs with low 2-NBDG uptake and were comparable to HSCs after 5-FU treatment, although the overall population of HSCs that exited the G0 phase and entered the G1 phase increased after 5-FU treatment. In both PBS/5-FU-treated groups, these profound differences in cell cycle glucose utilization suggest a direct link between HSC proliferation and glycolysis activation. Descriptions of the above findings and perspectives have been added to the Results and Discussion section (page 7, lines 208-214, page 20, lines 607-610).

      Author response image 25.

      1. Why are only ECAR measurements (and not OCR measurements) shown? In Fig.2G, why are HSCs compared with cKit+ myeloid progenitors, and not with MPP1? The ECAR increased observed in HSC upon oligomycin treatment is shared with many other types of cells. However, cKit+ cells have a weird behavior. Upon oligo treatment cKit+ cells decrease ECAR, which is quite unusual. The data of both HSCs and cKit+ cells could be clarified by adding OCR curves. Moreover, it is recommended to run glycolysis stress test profile to assess the dependency to glycolysis (Glucose, Oligomycin, 2DG).

      In addition to the ECAR data of the Mito Stress test (original Figures 2G–H), OCR data were added in the revised manuscript (revised Figures 2H, S3D). Compared to c-Kit+ myeloid progenitors (LKS- cells), HSC exhibited a similar increase in ECAR, while the decrease in OCR was relatively limited. This may be because glycolytic and mitochondrial metabolism are coupled in c-Kit+ myeloid progenitors, whereas they are decoupled in HSCs. This is also suggested by the glucose plus oligomycin experiment in Figures 5B, C, and S6A–D (orange lines). In summary, in HSCs, glycolytic and mitochondrial ATP production are decoupled and can maintain ATP levels by glycolytic ATP production alone, whereas in progenitors including GMPs, the two ATP production systems are constantly coupled, and glycolysis alone cannot maintain the ATP concentration. While we could not conduct a glycolysis stress test, we believe that Pfkfb3-dependent glycolytic activation, which is evident in the oligomycin+glucose+Pfkfb3i experiment, is only apparent in HSCs when subjected to glucose+oligomycin treatment (original Figures 5F–I). We have added descriptions of these points in the Results and Discussion section (page 8, lines 240-243, page 18, lines 558-561).

      Author response image 26.

      FIG.3 A-C. As mentioned previously, the flux analyses should be integrated with data using other energy sources. If cycling HSCs are less dependent to OXPHOS, what happen if you inhibit OXHPHOS in 5-FU condition? Since the authors are linking OXPHOS inhibition and upregulation of Glycolysis to increase proliferation, do HSCs proliferate more when treated with oligomycin?

      First, please see our response to comments 3 and 5 regarding the first part of this comment about the flux analysis of other energy sources. According to the analysis using the GO-Ateam2 system, stressed HSCs change the efficiency of glucose utilization (accelerated glycolytic ATP production) rather than other energy sources. The change in ATP concentration after OXPHOS inhibition for 5-FU-treated HSCs is shown in Figures 4C and E, suggesting that the activity of OXPHOS itself does not increase. HSCs after oligomycin treatment and HSCs after 5-FU treatment are similar in that they activate glycolytic ATP production. However, inhibition of OXPHOS did not induce the proliferation of HSCs (original Figure S1K). This suggests that proliferation activates glycolysis and not that activation of the glycolytic system induces proliferation. This similarity and dissimilarity of glycolytic activation upon proliferation and OXPHOS inhibition is discussed in the Discussion section (page 16-17, lines 505-515).

      1. FIG.4 shows that in vivo administration of radiolabeled glucose especially marks metabolites of TCA cycle and Glycolysis. The authors interpret enhanced anaerobic glycolysis, but I am not sure this is correct; if more glycolysis products go in the TCA cycle, it might mean that HSC start engaging mitochondrial metabolism. What do the authors think about that?

      Thank you for pointing this out. We believe that the data are due to two differences in the experimental features between in vivo (Figure S5) and in vitro (Figures 1 and S2) tracer analysis. The first difference is that in in vivo tracer analysis, unlike in vitro, all cells can metabolize U-13C6-glucose. Another difference is that after glucose labeling in vivo, it takes approximately 120–180 minutes to purify HSCs to extract metabolites, and processing on ice may result in a gradual progression of metabolic reactions within HSCs. As a result, in vivo tracer analysis may detect an increased influx of labeled carbon derived from U-13C6-glucose into the TCA cycle over an extended period. However, it is difficult to interpret whether this influx of labeled carbon is derived from the direct influx of glycolysis or the re-uptake by HSCs of metabolites that have been metabolized to other metabolites in other cells. Meanwhile, as shown in Figure 4C using the GO-ATeam2 system, ATP production from mitochondria is not upregulated by 5-FU treatment. This suggests that even if the direct influx from glycolysis into the TCA cycle is increased, the rate of ATP production does not exceed that of glycolysis. Despite these technical caveats in interpretation, the results of in vivo and in vitro tracer analyses are considered essential. In particular, we consider the increased labeling of metabolites involved in glycolysis and nucleotide synthesis to be crucial. We have added a discussion of these points, including experimental limitations (page 17-18, lines 530-545).

      1. FIG.4: the experimental design is not clear. Are BMNNCs stained and then put in culture? Is it 6-day culture or BMNNCs are purified at day 6 post 5FU? FIG-4B-C The difference between PBS vs 5FU conditions are the most significant; however, the effect of oligomycin in both conditions is the most dramatic one. From this readout, it seems that HSCs are more dependent on mitochondria for energy production both upon 5FU treatment and in PBS conditions.

      We apologize for the incomplete description of the experimental details. The experiment involved dispensing freshly stained BMMNC with surface antigens into the medium and immediately subjecting them to flow cytometry analysis. For post-5-FU treatment HSCs, mice were administered with 5-FU (day 1), and freshly obtained BMMNCs were analyzed on day 6. The analysis of HSCs and progenitors was performed by gating each fraction within the BMMNC (original Figure S5A). We have added these details to ensure that readers can grasp these aspects more clearly (page S5, lines 155-158).

      As pointed out by the reviewer, we understand that HSCs produce more ATP through OXPHOS. However, ATP production by glycolysis, although limited, is observed under steady-state conditions (post-PBS treatment HSC), and its reliance increases during the proliferation phase (post-5-FU treatment HSC) (original Figures 4B, D). Until now, discussions on energy production in HSCs have focused on either glycolysis or mitochondrial functions. However, with the GO-ATeam2 system, it has become possible for the first time to compare their contributions to ATP production and evaluate compensatory pathways. As a result, it became evident that while OXPHOS is the main source of ATP production, the reliance on glycolysis plastically increases in response to stress. This has led to a better understanding of HSC metabolism. These points are included in the Discussion as well (page 16, lines 479-488).

      1. FIG.6H should be extended with cell cycle analyses. There are no differences between 5FU and ctrl groups. If 5FU induces HSCs cycling and increases glycolysis I would expect higher 2-NBDG uptake in the 5FU group. How do the authors explain this?

      Thank you for your comments. In the original Figure 6H, we found that 2-NBDG uptake correlated with mPFKFB3 levels in both the 5-FU and PBS groups. mPfkfb3 levels remained low in the few HSCs with low 2-NBDG uptake in the 5-FU group.

      In the revised manuscript, to directly relate glucose utilization to the cell cycle, we administered 2-NBDG to mice and fractionated HSCs at the 2-NBDG fluorescence level for cell cycle analysis. The results are shown below (revised Figure S1M). Notably, even in the PBS-treated group, HSCs with high 2-NBDG uptake were more proliferative than those with low 2-NBDG uptake and are comparable to HSCs after 5-FU treatment, although the overall population of HSCs that exited the G0 phase and entered the G1 phase increased after 5-FU treatment. The large differences in glucose utilization per cell cycle observed in both PBS/5-FU-treated groups suggest a direct link between HSC proliferation and glycolysis activation. Descriptions of the above findings have been added to the Results and Discussion ((page 7, lines 208-214, page 20, lines 607-610).

      Author response image 27.

      1. In S7 the experimental design is not clear. What are quiescent vs proliferative conditions? What does it mean "cell number of HSC-derived colony"? Is it a CFU assay? Then you should show colony numbers. When HSCs proliferate, they need more energy thus inhibition of metabolism will impact proliferation. What happens if you inhibit mitochondrial metabolism with oligomycin?

      Regarding the proliferative and quiescence-maintaining conditions, we have previously reported on these 8. In brief, these are culture conditions that maintain HSC activity at a high level while allowing for the proliferation or maintenance of HSCs in quiescence, achieved by culturing under fatty acid-rich, hypoxic conditions with either high or low cytokine concentrations. Analysis was performed after one week of culture, with the HSC number determined by flow cytometry based on the LSK-SLAM marker. While these are mentioned in the Methods section, we have added a description in the main text to highlight these points for the reader (page 7, lines 214-217).

      In vitro experiments with the oligomycin treatment of HSCs showed that OXPHOS inhibition activates the glycolytic system, but does not induce HSC proliferation (original Figure S1K). This suggests that proliferation activates glycolysis and not that activation of the glycolytic system induces proliferation. This similarity and dissimilarity of glycolytic activation upon proliferation and OXPHOS inhibition is discussed in the Discussion (page 16-17, lines 505-515).

      1. In FIG 7 since homing of HSCs is influenced by the cell cycle state, should be important to show if in the genetic model for PFKFB3 in HSCs there's a difference in homing efficiency.

      In response to the reviewer's comments, we knocked out PFKFB3 in HSPCs derived from Ubc-GFP mice, transplanted 200,000 HSPCs into recipients (C57BL/6 mice) post-8.5Gy irradiation, and harvested the bone marrow of recipients after 16 h to compare homing efficiency (revised Figure S10H). Even with the knockout of PFKFB3, no significant difference in homing efficiency was detected compared to the control group (Rosa knockout group). These results suggest that the short-term reduction in chimerism due to PFKFB3 knockout is not due to decreased homing efficiency or cell death by apoptosis (Figure 7K) but a transient delay in cell cycle progression. We have added descriptions regarding these findings in the Results and Discussion sections (page 15, lines 470-471, page 19, lines 576-578).

      Author response image 28.

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      2. Umemoto T, Johansson A, Ahmad SAI, et al. ATP citrate lyase controls hematopoietic stem cell fate and supports bone marrow regeneration. EMBO J. 2022:e109463.

      3. Seita J, Sahoo D, Rossi DJ, et al. Gene Expression Commons: an open platform for absolute gene expression profiling. PLoS One. 2012;7(7):e40321.

      4. Boyd S, Brookfield JL, Critchlow SE, et al. Structure-Based Design of Potent and Selective Inhibitors of the Metabolic Kinase PFKFB3. J Med Chem. 2015;58(8):3611-3625.

      5. Ito K, Carracedo A, Weiss D, et al. A PML–PPAR-δ pathway for fatty acid oxidation regulates hematopoietic stem cell maintenance. Nat Med. 2012;18(9):1350-1358.

      6. Oburoglu L, Tardito S, Fritz V, et al. Glucose and glutamine metabolism regulate human hematopoietic stem cell lineage specification. Cell Stem Cell. 2014;15(2):169-184.

      7. Gnaiger E, Mendez G, Hand SC. High phosphorylation efficiency and depression of uncoupled respiration in mitochondria under hypoxia. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2000;97(20):11080-11085.

      8. Kobayashi H, Morikawa T, Okinaga A, et al. Environmental Optimization Enables Maintenance of Quiescent Hematopoietic Stem Cells Ex Vivo. Cell Rep. 2019;28(1):145-158 e149.

      9. Wang YH, Israelsen WJ, Lee D, et al. Cell-state-specific metabolic dependency in hematopoiesis and leukemogenesis. Cell. 2014;158(6):1309-1323.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Tobón and Moser reveal a remarkable amount of presynaptic diversity in the fundamental Ca dependent exocytosis of synaptic vesicles at the afferent fiber bouton synapse onto the pilar or mediolar sides of single inner hair cells of mice. These are landmark findings with profound implications for understanding acoustic signal encoding and presynaptic mechanisms of synaptic diversity at inner hair cell ribbon synapses. The paper will have an immediate and long-lasting impact in the field of auditory neuroscience.

      Main findings: 1) Synaptic delays and jitter of masker responses are significantly shorter (synaptic delay: 1.19 ms) at high SR fibers (pilar) than at low SR fibers (mediolar; 2.57 ms). 2) Masked evoked EPSC are significantly larger in high SR than in low SR. 3) Quantal content and RRP size are 14 vesicles in both high and low SR fibers. 4) Depression is faster in high SR synapses suggesting they have a higher release probability and tighter Ca nanodomain coupling to docked vesicles. 5) Recovery of master-EPSCs from depletion is similar for high and low SR synapses, although there is a slightly faster rate for low SR synapses that have bigger synaptic ribbons, which is very interesting. 6) High SR synapses had larger and more compact (monophasic) sEPSCs, well suited to trigger rapidly and faithfully spikes. 7) High SR synapses exhibit lower voltage (~sound pressure in vivo) dependent thresholds of exocytosis.

      Strengths:

      Great care was taken to use physiological external pH buffers and physiological external Ca concentrations. Paired recordings were also performed at higher temperatures with IHCs at physiological resting membrane potentials and in more mature animals than previously done for paired recordings. This is extremely challenging because it becomes increasingly difficult to visualize bouton terminals when myelination becomes more prominent in the cochlear afferents.

      In addition, perforated patch recordings were used in the IHC to preserve its intracellular milieu intact and thus extend the viability of the IHCs. The experiments are tour-de-force and reveal several novel aspects of IHC ribbon synapses. The data set is rich and extensive. The analysis is detailed and compelling.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for the appreciation of our work and the comments that helped us to improve our manuscript. We detail our responses to the comments below.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Materials and Methods: Please provide whole-cell Rs (series resistance ) and Cm (membrane capacitance) average +/- S.E.M. (or SD) values for IHC and afferent fiber bouton recordings. The Cm values for afferents have been estimated to be about 0.1 pF (Glowatzki and Fuchs, 2002) and it would be interesting to know if there are differences in these numbers for high and low SR afferents. Is it possible to estimate Cm from the capacitative transient time constant? Minimal electronic filtering would be required for that to work, so I realize the authors may not have this data and I also realize that the long cable of the afferents do not allow accurate Cm measurements, but some first order estimate would be very interesting to report, if possible.

      In response to the reviewer’s comment, we now added the estimates of series resistance and membrane capacitance for IHC and bouton recordings in Material and Methods and in the Figure 1 – figure supplement 1. Our estimate for bouton Cm is on average 1.7 ± 0.09 pF, a value that compares well to the literature. For example, Glowatzki and Fuchs (2002) provided estimates ranging 0.5-2 pF for recordings from afferent inner hair cell synapses in rats that showed a capacitance transient. In own prior work on afferent inner hair cell synapses of pre-hearing mice, we found estimates of 2.6 ± 0.5 pF (Chapochnikov et al., 2014) and 1.9 ± 0.2 pF (Takago et al., 2019). Keen and Hudspeth (2006) reported capacitances of 1–4 pF for afferent terminals in the bullfrog amphibian papilla. There was no difference in bouton Cm between high SR (1.78 ± 0.19 pF) and low SR synapses (1.68 ± 0.11 pF; p = 0.6575, unpaired t test).

      (2) Page 20, 26 and Figure 4: With regard to synaptic delays at auditory hair cell synapses: please see extensive studies done in Figure 11 of Chen and von Gersdorff (JNeurosci., 2019); this showed that synaptic delays are 1.26 ms in adult bullfrog auditory hair cells at 31oC, which is very similar to the High SR fibers (1.19 ms; Fig.4B and page 20). During ongoing depolarizations (e.g. during a sustained sine wave) the synaptic delay can be reduced to just 0.72 ms for probe EPSCs, which is a more usual number for mature fast synapses. This paper should, thus, be cited and briefly discussed in the Discussion. So a significant shortening of delay occurs for the probe response and this is also observed in young rat IHC synapses (see Goutman and Glowatzki, 2011).

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have analysed the synaptic delay of the probe response and included it in Figure 4 – figure supplement 1. Contrary to the findings from Goutman and Glowatzki (2011) and Chen and von Gersdorff (2019), we did not observe a shortening of the synaptic delay for the probe response compared to the masker response. This difference might arise from the duration of the masker stimulus and/or the IHC holding potential. Synaptic facilitation in hair cells seems to occur only when the RRP is not depleted by the first stimulus (Cho et al., 2011). Our 100 ms masker depolarization from a holding potential of -58 mV effectively depleted the synapse RRP (Figure 4D), while both studies mentioned above used relatively short depolarizations (2 in rat and 20 ms in bullfrog) from a holding potential around -90 mV, which most likely didn’t deplete the RRP. Indeed, when using partially RRP depleting stimuli of 10 ms, Goutman (2011) observed longer synaptic latencies and smaller responses to the second stimulus. We have included this discussion in the last paragraph of the results section.

      Additionally, we would also like to note that we referred to the important work on frog hair cell synapses in the manuscript, yet aimed to focus on relating synaptic heterogeneity of mammalian inner hair cell synapses to the functional diversity of type I spiral ganglion neurons that unlike the frog afferents show little branching of their peripheral neurites (in only ~15% of the neurons). We think it will be very interesting to study the aspect of presynaptic heterogeneity in the bullfrog amphibian papilla, but assume that the converging input of several active zones onto a single afferent might provide a different encoding scheme than in the mammalian cochlea.

      (3) Gaussian-like (and/or multi-peak) EPSC amplitude distributions were obtained in more mature rat IHCs by Grant et al. (see their Figure 4G; JNeurosci. 2010; postnatal day 19-21). The putative single quanta peak was at 50 pA and the main peak was at 375 pA. The large mean suggests a low CV (probably < 0.4). However, Fig. 2F shows a mean of about 100 pA and CV = 0.7 for spontaneous EPSCs. This major difference deserves some more discussion. I suppose that one possible explanation may be that the current paper holds the IHC membrane potential fixed at -58 mV, whereas Grant et al. (2010) did not control the IHC membrane potential and spontaneous fluctuations in the Vm may have depolarized the IHC, thus producing larger evoked EPSCs that are triggered by Ca channel openings. Some discussion that compares these differences and possible explanations would be quite useful for the readers.

      We understand the reviewer’s concern. We have now included the amplitude distribution of sEPSCs recorded from 12 boutons without patch-clamping the IHC (Figure 2–figure supplement 1, panel A). The rest of the recording conditions (i.e., artificial perilymph-like solution, physiological temperature and age) were identical to the conditions used for the paired recordings. Both the range of spontaneous rate (0 up to 16.33 sEPSC/s) and the amplitude distribution (peak at -40 pA and CV of 0.66) were comparable to the values we obtained when clamping the IHC resting potential at -58 mV. In addition, for two of our pairs, we established the bouton recording first, measured the spontaneous release, then established the perforated patch-clamp of the IHC and measured the spontaneous release again with IHC held at -58 mV. For pair #l300321_1, the SR before clamping the IHC was 0.0125 sEPSC/s, with a maximal AmpsEPSC of -110 pA (avg. -52 pA). The SR while holding the IHC at -58 mV was 0.36 sEPSCs/s, with a maximal AmpsEPSC of -140 pA (avg. -46 pA). For pair #l200522_2, the SR changed from 0.07 sEPSC/s to 0. The maximal AmpsEPSC before clamping the IHC was -70 pA (avg. -31 pA). Overall, our data recorded without controlling the IHC argues against the resting potential of -58 mV as a major source of differences in EPSC rate and amplitudes compared to previous studies.

      Nonetheless, it is important to note that the experimental conditions used in our study differ from previous reports in several aspects. Our extracellular solution contains the physiological pH buffer bicarbonate instead of the fast buffer HEPES, as well as TEA and Cs+ for proper isolation of the Ca2+ currents. Both pH and potassium channel blockers can alter the excitability of the cell and, consequently, the spontaneous and evoked release. For instance, despite maintaining a similar extracellular pH (7.3 to 7.4), the choice of bicarbonate or HEPES for the extracellular solution can influence differently the regulation of the intracellular pH of the cell (Michl et al., 2019). Indeed, the activity of ion channels and receptors (e.g., AMPAR), and the resting potential can change depending on the extracellular buffer used (Hare and Owen, 1998, Vincent et al., 2019, Cho and von Gersdorff, 2014; and review Sinning and Hübner, 2013). Additionally, the animal model and the age range could be a source of difference. In rats, the EPSC amplitude distribution seems to change with maturation but not with K+ stimulation (Grant et al., 2010) or voltage depolarizations (Goutman and Glowatzki, 2007). This however does not seem to be the case for afferent boutons recorded from mice. In resting conditions (i.e. 5.8 mM extracellular K+), average EPSC amplitudes are around -100 to -150 pA for both prehearing (Chapochnikov et al., 2014) and hearing mice (Niwa et al., 2021 and the present study). Upon stimulation (40 mM K+ or voltage depolarizations), the mean EPSC amplitude does not change in prehearing mice (Jing et al., 2013; Takaba et al., 2019), but it significantly increases in hearing mice (Niwa et al., 2021 and the present study). In p20 and p30 mice, the mean EPSC amplitude was predominantly below -100 pA at rest and only increased above -100 pA after stimulation with 40 mM K+ (Niwa et al., 2021). Similarly, our reported avg. AmpsEPSC is below -150 pA, while the evoked EPSCs reached average amplitudes above -200 pA (Figure 1–figure supplement 1, panel F and Figure 4 – figure supplement 1, panel F).

      We have included the aforementioned points in the discussion under the section "Diversity of spontaneous release and their topographical segregation”.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study by Jaime-Tobon & Moser is a truly major effort to bridge the gap between classical observations on how auditory neurons respond to sounds and the synaptic basis of these phenomena. The so-called spiral ganglion neurons (SGNs) are the primary auditory neurons connecting the brain with hair cells in the cochlea. They all respond to sounds increasing their firing rates, but also present multiple heterogeneities. For instance, some present a low threshold to sound intensity, whereas others have high threshold. This property inversely correlates with the spontaneous rate, i.e., the rate at which each neuron fires in the absence of any acoustic input. These characteristics, along with others, have been studied by many reports over the years. However, the mechanisms that allow the hair cells-SGN synapses to drive these behaviors are not fully understood.

      Strengths:

      The level of experimental complexity described in this manuscript is unparalleled, producing data that is hardly found elsewhere. The authors provide strong proof for heterogeneity in transmitter release thresholds at individual synapses and they do so in extremely complex experimental settings. In addition, the authors found other specific differences such as in synaptic latency and max EPSCs. A reasonable effort is put into bridging these observations with those extensively reported in in vivo SGNs recordings. Similarities are many and differences are not particularly worrying as experimental conditions cannot be perfectly matched, despite the authors' efforts in minimizing them.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for the appreciation of our work and the comments that helped us to improve our manuscript. We detail our responses to the comments below.

      Weaknesses:

      Some concern surges in relation to mismatches with previous reports of IHC-SGN synapses function. EPSCs at these synapses present a peculiar distribution of amplitudes, shapes, and rates. These characteristics are well-established and some do not seem to be paralleled in this study. Here, amplitude distributions are drastically shifted to smaller values, and rates of events are very low, all compared with previous evidence. The reasons for these discrepancies are unclear. The rate at which spontaneous EPSCs appear is an especially sensitive matter. A great part of the conclusions relies on the definition of which of the SGNs (or should say synapses) belong to the low end and which to the high end in the spectrum of spontaneous rates. The data presented by the authors seem a bit off and the criteria used to classify recordings are not well justified. The authors should clarify the origin of these differences since they do not seem to come from obvious reasons such as animal ages, recording techniques, mouse strain, or even species.

      We understand the reviewer’s concern. We have now included the amplitude distribution of sEPSCs recorded from 12 boutons without patch-clamping the IHC (Figure 2–figure supplement 1, panel A). The rest of the recording conditions (i.e., artificial perilymph-like solution, physiological temperature and age) were identical to the conditions used for the paired recordings. Both the range of spontaneous rate (0 up to 16.33 sEPSC/s) and the amplitude distribution (peak at -40 pA and CV of 0.66) were comparable to the values we obtained when clamping the IHC resting potential at -58 mV. In addition, for two of our pairs, we established the bouton recording first, measured the spontaneous release, then established the perforated patch-clamp of the IHC and measured the spontaneous release again with IHC held at -58 mV. For pair #l300321_1, the SR before clamping the IHC was 0.0125 sEPSC/s, with a maximal AmpsEPSC of -110 pA (avg. -52 pA). The SR while holding the IHC at -58 mV was 0.36 sEPSCs/s, with a maximal AmpsEPSC of -140 pA (avg. -46 pA). For pair #l200522_2, the SR changed from 0.07 sEPSC/s to 0. The maximal AmpsEPSC before clamping the IHC was -70 pA (avg. -31 pA). Overall, our data recorded without controlling the IHC argues against the resting potential of -58 mV as a major source of differences in EPSC rate and amplitudes compared to previous studies.

      Additionally, as noted on the section “Diversity of spontaneous release and their topographical segregation”, our SR values also agree with the range of 0.1 – 16.42 spikes/s reported by Wu et al., (2016) using loose patch recordings from p15-p17 rats. 90% of the paired recordings (and 60% of the bouton recordings) of our dataset were obtained from mice between p14-p17, where spontaneous activity is still low compared to older age groups (p19-p21: 0 – 44.22 spikes/s; p29p32: 0.11 – 54.9 spikes/s Wu et al., 2016; p28: 0 – 47.94 spikes/s, Siebald at al., 2023). There are two additional aspects to consider: i) about 40% of the SGN spikes seem to be generated intrinsically (not activated by an EPSP, ergo an EPSC) at p15-p18 (Wu et al., 2016); and ii) the presence of a spike or EPSC is the sole determinant of a successful recording when the IHC is not stimulated (either by K+ or voltage), thus, these type of experiments undersample fibers with low SR.

      We have included the aforementioned points in the discussion under the section "Diversity of spontaneous release and their topographical segregation”.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      "Bridging the gap between presynaptic hair cell function and neural sound encoding" by Jaime Tobon and Moser uses patch-clamp electrophysiology in cochlear preparations to probe the pre- and post-synaptic specializations that give rise to the diverse activity of spiral ganglion afferent neurons (SGN). The experiments are quite an achievement! They use paired recordings from pre-synaptic cochlear inner hair cells (IHC) that allow precise control of voltage and therefore calcium influx, with post-synaptic recordings from type I SGN boutons directly opposed to the IHC for both presynaptic control of membrane voltage and post-synaptic measurement of synaptic function with great temporal resolution.

      Strengths

      Any of these techniques by themselves are challenging, but the authors do them in pairs, at physiological temperatures, and in hearing animals, all of which combined make these experiments a real tour de force. The data is carefully analyzed and presented, and the results are convincing. In particular, the authors demonstrate that post-synaptic features that contribute to the spontaneous rate (SR) of predominantly monophasic post-synaptic currents (PSCs), shorter EPSC latency, and higher PSC rates are directly paired with pre-synaptic features such as a lower IHC voltage activation and tighter calcium channel coupling for release to give a higher probability of release and subsequent increase in synaptic depression. Importantly, IHCs paired with Low and High SR afferent fibers had the same total calcium currents, indicating that the same IHC can connect to both low and high SR fibers. These fibers also followed expected organizational patterns, with high SR fibers primarily contacting the pillar IHC face and low SR fibers primarily contacting the modiolar face. The authors also use in vivo-like stimulation paradigms to show different RRP and release dynamics that are similar to results from SGN in vivo recordings. Overall, this work systematically examines many features giving rise to specializations and diversity of SGN neurons.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for the appreciation of our work and the comments that helped us to improve our manuscript. We detail our responses to the comments below.

      Weaknesses / Comments / edits:

      (1) The careful analysis of calcium coupling and EPSC metrics is especially nice. Can the authors speculate as to why different synapses (likely in the same IHC) would have different calcium cooperativity?

      The finding of different apparent Ca2+ cooperativities among IHC synapses is intriguing. Paired pre- and postsynaptic patch-clamp recordings (this work and (Jaime Tobón and Moser, 2023)) and single synapse imaging of presynaptic Ca2+ signals and glutamate release (Özçete and Moser, 2021) jointly support this notion. Both methodologies complement each other. Imaging allows to assess the presynaptic Ca2+ of the specific synapse, while in paired recordings release is related to the whole cell Ca2+ influx. Paired recordings, on the other hand, provide the sensitivity and temporal resolution to assess the initial release rate with short stimuli (2 to 10 ms), which avoids an impact of RRP depletion and ongoing SV replenishment that needs to be considered for the longer stimuli used in imaging (50 ms). Both approaches agree on the finding of tighter coupling of Ca2+ channels and release sites (i.e., lower apparent Ca2+ cooperativity during depolarization within the range of receptor potentials) at pillar synapses. Moreover, the present study took advantage of recording individual release events [which was not achieved by imaging] and further supported the hypothesis that high SR SGNs receive input from active zones with tighter coupling than low SR SGNs. However, our two non-overlapping data sets for paired patch-clamp recordings (this work and (Jaime Tobón and Moser, 2023)) found a narrower range of apparent Ca2+ cooperativities compared to results from single synapse imaging (Özçete and Moser, 2021). This might reflect the technical differences described above. Future studies, potentially combining paired patch-clamp recordings with imaging of presynaptic Ca2+ signals will be needed to scrutinize this aspect.

      We think that the different Ca2+ cooperativities reflect subtle differences in the topography of presynaptic Ca2+ channels and vesicular release sites at the specific IHC active zones. The work of Özçete and Moser (2021) indicated that indeed, apparent Ca2+ cooperativities differ among active zones even within the same inner hair cell. Synaptic heterogeneity within one individual cell can expand its coding capacity. In the case of IHCs, differences in the Ca2+ dependence of synaptic release, in addition to the heterogeneous voltage dependence, appears to diversify the response properties (i.e., synaptic vesicle release probability) of individual synapses to the same stimulus. This is particularly important for sound intensity and temporal coding.

      We have included the aforementioned points in the discussion under the section "Candidate mechanisms distinguishing evoked release at low and high SR synapses”.

      (2) On the bottom of page 6 it would be helpful to mention earlier how many pillar vs modiolar fibers were recorded from, otherwise the skewness of SRs (figure 2H could be thought to be due to predominantly recordings from modiolar fibers. As is, it reads a bit like a cliff-hanger.

      Done!

      (3) The contrasts for some of the data could be used to point out that while significant differences occur between low and high SR fibers, some of these differences are no longer apparent when comparing modiolar vs pillar fibers (eg by contrasting Figure 2C and 2K). This can indicate that indeed there are differences between the fiber activity, but that the activity likely exists in a gradient across the hair cell faces. Pointing this out at the top of page 10 (end of the first paragraph) would be helpful, it would make the seemingly contradictory voltage dependence data easier to understand on first read (voltage-dependence of release is significantly different between different SR fibers (figure 3) but is not significantly different between fibers on different HC faces (figure S3).

      Done!

      (4) It should be acknowledged that although the use of post-hearing animals here (P14-23) ensures that SGN have begun to develop more mature activity patterns (Grant et al 2010), the features of the synapses and SGN activity may not be completely mature (Wu et al 2016 PMID: 27733610). Could this explain some of the 'challenges' (authors' section title) detailed on page 28, first full paragraph?

      Done!

      (5) In the discussion on page 24, the authors compare their recorded SR of EPSCs to measure values in vivo which are higher. Could this indicate that in vivo, the resting membrane potential of IHCs is more depolarized than is currently used for in vitro cochlear experiments?

      That is indeed one possible explanation among others. We have expanded the discussion about the factors that could affect the SR in ex vivo experiments.

      (6) The results showing lower calcium cooperativity of high SR fibers are powerful, but do the authors have an explanation for why the calcium cooperativity of < 2 is different from that (m = 3-4) observed in other manuscripts?

      We assume this question to potentially result from a misunderstanding. Using membrane capacitance measurements and Ca2+ uncaging, Beutner et al. (2001) reported a high intrinsic Ca2+ cooperativity of inner hair cell exocytosis (m = 4-5). Based on this data, it has been proposed that the binding of 4-5 Ca2+ ions is required to trigger the fusion of a synaptic vesicle in IHCs. However, given the shortcoming of Ca2+ uncaging, we and others aimed to further study this aspect using alternative methods. By varying the current of single Ca2+ channels in apical IHCs of hearing mice, several studies reported a high apparent Ca2+ cooperativity (m = 3-5) that is thought to reflect the high intrinsic cooperativity (Brandt et al., 2005; Wong et al., 2014; Özçete and Moser, 2021; Jaime Tobón and Moser, 2023).

      On the other hand, the apparent Ca2+ cooperativity observed upon changing the number of open Ca2+ channels would also reflect the active zone topography (i.e., number and distance of Ca2+ channels to the vesicular release site). In the present study, we used different depolarizations within the range of receptor potentials and found a low apparent Ca2+ cooperativity (m < 2) in 93% of the studied synapses. Other studies in apical IHCs from hearing mice used similar and alternative methods to change the number of open Ca2+ channels and also estimated an apparent cooperativity of < 2 (Brandt et al., 2005; Johnson et al., 2005; Johnson et al., 2007; Wong et al., 2014; Özçete and Moser, 2021; Jaime Tobón and Moser, 2023). The fact that these estimates are smaller than those seen upon changes in single Ca2+ current has been taken to indicate that SV release is governed by one or few Ca2+ channels in nanometer proximity (Ca2+ nanodomain-like control of SV exocytosis), building on classical synapse work (Augustine et al., 1991). 

      In contrast, comparable recordings from mouse IHCs before the onset of hearing (Wong et al., 2014) revealed more similar apparent Ca2+ cooperativities (m ~3) for both changes in the number of open Ca2+ channels and changes in single Ca2+ channel current. This suggests that IHCs before the onset of hearing employ a Ca2+ microdomain-like control of SV exocytosis in which release is governed by the combined activity of several Ca2+ channels in >100 nm distance to the release site. A Ca2+ microdomain-like control of SV exocytosis was also reported for basocochlear IHCs (Johnson et al., 2017).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      As explained in the public reviews of Reviewers 1 and 2, some mismatches between the data presented here and previous reports from the literature have been identified. It is recommended that you discuss those mismatches, perhaps in relation to the choice of patchclamping the hair cells at -58mV.

      We have addressed this point thoroughly in the revised MS. Please see our response to the public review.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor suggestions and corrections:

      (1) Figures 3 and 4 show beautiful data with paired recordings. Figure 3 shows 10 ms pulses, whereas Fig. 4 shows 100 ms depolarizing pulses. The example in Fig. 3A shows asynchronous release after Ca channel closure, whereas Fig. 4 does not show this so prominently. Was there quite a bit of variability in the asynchronous release from different cell pairs, or was this correlated with pulse duration?

      The asynchronous release is also present after 100 ms depolarizing pulses (please see the updated panel A of Figure 4). However, we have not analysed asynchronous release and think that this would be beyond the scope of the current MS. For clarity, we have added dashed lines in the EPSC traces of Figs. 3 and 4 to indicate the on and off-set of the depolarization.

      (2) Differences in apex and basal IHC ribbon synapse nanodomain to microdomain Ca channel coupling to exocytosis-sensor have been reported also for gerbil IHCs (see Johnson et al., JNeurosci., 2017). This may be worth mentioning since it is another indication of major synaptic diversity in the mammalian cochlea, this time from low to frequency-located IHCs.

      Done

      (3) Page 22: change "hight SR" to "high SR".

      Done

      (4) Page 27: change "addess" to "addressed".

      Done

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major points:

      (1) As indicated in methods, recording stretches of 5-10 seconds were used to determine the SR of a given SGN. This seems too short for a reasonable estimate of the SR in these neurons. Also, the reported SRs for these mature mice are not only much lower than those measured in in-vivo SGN extracellular recordings but also compared to those reported in ex-vivo rat recordings. Why this discrepancy? The authors decided to estimate SR by voltage-clamping IHCs at a fixed value of - 58 mV, which they take from Johnson, 2015. I wonder if it is not more reasonable to use a range of IHC holdings and measure SR at those, instead of using a single one. It is hard to visualize a very strong argument for using strictly -58 mV. In addition, mapping out a range of holding potentials could provide additional information on IHCs resting membrane potential in physiological conditions.

      Related to this point, considering that SR values found in the ex-vivo preparation are much lower than those described in in-vivo situations, is it fair to use the same 1 sp/s criteria, as in Taberner & Liberman, to segregate low and high? Shouldn't this value be adjusted to the overall lower SR? This criterion is naturally critical for the consequent evaluation of other SGN properties.

      Finally, on this same problem of IHC Vh, does -58 mV estimate include the 19 mV liquid junction potential? How does it compare with the activation threshold of calcium influx at modiolar vs pillar synapses (see imaging studies)?

      We had proactively discussed the challenges of relating ex vivo and in vivo data in the preprint provided for review. While we consider the outcome of our study helpful for better understanding the relation of afferent synaptic heterogeneity and diverse firing properties of SGNs, we do not claim that the assumptions based on literature (such as on the physiological resting potential) represent ground truth.

      When carefully revising the MS, we have expanded on the discussion to address the points raised here, particularly regarding the lower SR and sEPSC amplitudes. As this and the other reviewer commented in the public review, these experiments were hard to achieve and we consider repeating them with a range of IHC holding potentials (then not only for spontaneous rate of transmission, but also for in depth characterization of evoked release) to be beyond the scope of the present study.

      We do appreciate the suggestion to adjust the distinction between low and high SR given the overall lower rates. However, we would like to refrain from it, as i) we consider it quite arbitrary to define another criterium and ii) we would like to avoid any apparent cherry-picking bias.

      Finally, yes, of course, the -58 mV represent the liquid junction potential corrected holding potential. Our average IHC whole-cell Vhalf ICa (-38.86 mV for high SR and -37.60 mV for low SR) compares well with previous reports of average whole-cell Vhalf ICa (-35.44 mV) and average synaptic Vhalf Rhod-FF (-41.15 mV) (Özçete and Moser, 2021). Additionally, our Vhalf QEPSC distribution (ranging from -53.97 to -31.72 mV) also compares well with the Vhalf iGluSnFR distribution (ranging from -45.25 to -29.86 mV) obtained by imaging of synaptic glutamate release (Özçete and Moser, 2021).

      2) EPSCs amplitude distributions in Figure 2 seem very different from those reported before by Grant et al., 2010 and Niwa et al., 2021 (even Chapochnikov et al., 2014; although not sure if the animal ages match). The average amplitudes of EPSCs reported here, for either pillar or modiolar SGNs, seem way smaller than those reported previously. The authors should provide a convincing explanation for this critical deviation from the consensual results.

      Please refer to our response to the public review (point #3).

      3) Rise time analysis in Fig. 2 supp 1. The actual values seem too long, again, compared to reported values. Also, what would these differences between modiolar and pillar represent?

      Previous reports on mouse, rat, turtle and bullfrog focused mainly on the rise times (or time to peak) of monophasic EPSCs: about 0.39 ms (p8-p11 mouse; Chapochnikov et al., 2014, Takago et al., 2019), 0.33-0.58 ms (p7-p14 rat; Yi at al., 2010, Grant et al., 2010, Glowatzki and Fuchs, 2002), 0.17-0.29 ms (p15-p21 rat; Chapochnikov et al., 2014, Huang and Moser, 2018, Grant et al., 2010), 0.1-0.2 ms (turtle auditory papilla; Schnee et al., 2013) and 0.15-0.2 ms (bullfrog 31ºC and 22ºC; Li et al., 2009, Chen and von Gersdorff, 2019). Regarding multiphasic EPSCs, some studies have reported rise times (or times to peak) of about 1.5 ms (p8-p11 mouse; Takago et al., 2019), 1.1 ms (p8-p11 rat; Grant et al., 2010) and 0.6-0.8 ms (p15-p21 rats; Huang and Moser, 2018, Chapochnikov et al., 2014, Grant et al., 2010). When we factor in the waveform of the sEPSCs, our rise times are comparable to the literature:

      Author response table 1.

      Thus, IHC synapses with higher SR and predominantly located at the pillar side appear to have sEPSCs with faster rise times regardless of their waveform. This might be a consequence of the fusion kinetics of the synaptic vesicles which are tightly influenced by the Ca2+ influx (Huang and Moser, 2018). Additionally, differences in the composition and density of the postsynaptic AMPA receptors could play a role in the rise time of the EPSC (Rubio et al., 2017). 

      4) One of the most impressive observations of the in-vivo SGN physiology is the difference in sound threshold among specific fibers. This can vary over tens of dB of sound pressure levels.

      The representation of this phenomenon when using an ex-vivo preparation is not obvious. Overall, it has been reported that IHC Vm is a good proxy for stimulus intensity. Consequently, the authors reported an 'IHC Vm threshold' at the start of SGN synaptic activity for each recording. This can be found in Figure 3 Eii, where values vary between -65 to -30 mV. This is already an important finding. However, the representative traces on panel A only diverge by 5 mV. It would be very interesting to the reader to have represented in the figure recordings that can better illustrate this wide range of values.

      We agree with the reviewer regarding the impressive difference in the sound thresholds recorded in vivo. To illustrate better illustrate our findings, we have chosen a different representative trace for the high SR synapse.

      5) On the masker-probe experiments it would be interesting to look at the synaptic delay of the probe pulses. Are they different between high and low SR synapses?

      We have now included the results of the synaptic delay of the probe response (Figure 4– supplementary figure 1). Despite not being statistically significant, the eEPSC probe latency of high SR is on average faster than low SR.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The terms monophasic and compact are used interchangeably. This is fine, but perhaps compact could be defined earlier, otherwise, readers may think that 'compact' means 'short' (as is sometimes euphemistically used to describe short people), which then makes phrasing such as the figure legend for figure 2 a bit confusing. This could be included at first use in a figure as well, in figure 1B where the two types of EPSCs are first shown.

      Done, now explained and preferentially used monophasic.

      (2) Check for mention of figure panels in the results text - for example, there is no mention in the results text of figure 2A, 2I,

      Done

      (3) The locations of some of the statistics are inconsistent. This is fine if the authors have a reason for including the stats where they did, but in some cases, the stats are duplicated (for example figure 2J, 2K, 2L, the stats are in both the figure legend and the results text, then check throughout).

      Done

      (4) The color coding in figure 4 is confusing in panel A - does orange still mean a high SR fiber here? The legend indicates that orange is for EPSCs, but does not specify charge. It could be helpful to show both a high and low SR response, both for EPSCs and for charge. 

      Thanks for pointing us to this aspect: we have carefully revised the figure and figure legend for clarity. We also included an exemplary response of a low SR synapse in the figure.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1:

      ●      It might help the reader if you make it explicit that mDES allows you to create an approximate amalgam of different kinds of experiences by assuming that, across individuals, there is a general consensus of experiences at particular points in the movie. Whether this assumption is an accurate reflection of the way in which each individual's brain is an important, testable prediction that could be discussed/examined in different projects. For instance, in other projects there are clear idiosyncratic responses to the same naturalistic stimuli: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8064646/.

      Thank you, this is an excellent point. We have included this article in our revision and expanded on the introduction to emphasize how this study relates to our work. Additionally, we have included an additional figure that helps illustrate how mDES can be used to evaluate the idiosyncrasy for each respective thought component to visually display the variance across moments in the film:

      Page 6-7 [137-148] In our study, we used multi-dimensional experience sampling (mDES) to describe ongoing thought patterns during the movie-watching experience [8]. mDES is an experience sampling method that identifies different features of thought by probing participants about multiple dimensions of their experiences. mDES can provide a description of a person’s thoughts, generating reliable thought patterns across laboratory cognitive tasks [22, 32, 33] and in daily life [34, 35], and is sensitive to accompanying changes in brain activity [24, 36]. Studies that use mDES to describe experience ask participants to provide experiential reports by answering a set of questions about different features of their thought on a continuous scale from 1 (Not at all) to 10 (Completely) [24, 32-41]. Each question describes a different feature of experience such as if their thoughts are oriented in the future or the past, about oneself or other people, deliberate or intrusive in nature, and more (See methods for a full list of questions used in the current study).

      ●      A cartoon describing the mDES technique could be helpful for uninitiated readers.

      Thank you for your suggestion, we have added an additional figure (Figure 3) that illustrates the process of mDES in the laboratory during this experiment, clarifying that participants answer mDES items using a slider to indicate their score (rather than expressing it verbally).

      ●      Did the authors check for any measures of reliability across mDES estimates other than split-half reliability? For instance, the authors could demonstrate construct validity by showing that engagement with certain features of the thought-sampling space aligned with specific points in the movies. If so, the start of the Results section would be a great place to demonstrate the reliability of the approach. For instance, did any two participants sample the same 15-second window of time in a particular stimulus? If so, you could compare their experience samples to determine whether the method was extensible across subjects.

      This is a great point, thank you very much for highlighting this. We have eight individuals at each time point in our analysis, which is probably not enough to calculate meaningful reliability measures. However, we have added a time series analysis of experience in each clip to our revision (Figure 3). In these time plots, it is possible to see clear moments in the film in which scores do not straddle 0 (using 95% CI), and often, these persist across successive moments (Figure 3; see time-series plot four for the clearest example).  When the confidence intervals of a sampling epoch do not overlap with zero, this suggests a high degree of agreement in thought content across participants. At the same time, our analysis shows that individual differences do exist since the relative presence of each component for each participant was linked to objective measures of movie watching (in this case, comprehension). In this revision we have specifically addressed this question by conducting ANOVAs to determine how scores on each component across the clip (See also supplementary table 11). This additional analysis shows that mDES effectively captures shared aspects of movie-watching and is also sensitive to individual variation (since it can describe individual differences).

      Page 15 [304-323]: Next, we examined how each pattern of thought changes across each movie clip. For this analysis, we conducted separate ANOVA for each film clip for the four components (see Table 1 and Figure 3). Clear dynamic changes were observed in several components for different films. We analyzed these data using an Analysis of Variance (ANOVA) in which the time in each clip were explanatory variables of interest. This identified significant change in “Episodic Social Cognition” scores across Little Miss Sunshine, F(1, 712) = 10.80, p = .001, , η2 = .03, and Citizenfour, F(1, 712) = 5.23, p = .023, , η2 = .02. There were also significant change in “Verbal Detail” scores across Little Miss Sunshine, F(1, 712) = 31.79, p <.001, η2 = .09. Lastly, there were significant changes in “Sensory Engagement” scores for both Citizenfour, F(1, 712) = 6.22, p = .013, η2 = .02, and 500 Days of Summer, F(1, 706) = 80.41, p <.001, η2 = .18. These time series are plotted in Figure 3 and highlight how mDES can capture the dynamics of different types of experience across the three movie clips. Moreover, in several of these time series plots, it is clear that thought patterns reported extend beyond adjacent time periods (e.g. scores above zero between time periods 150 to 400 for Sensory Engagement in 500 days of Summer and for time periods between 175 and 225 for Verbal Detail in Little Miss Sunshine). It is important to note that no participant completed experience sampling reports during adjacent sampling points (see Supplementary Figure 7), so the length of these intervals indicates agreement in how specific scenes within a film were experienced and conserved across different individuals. Notably, the component with the least evidence for temporal dynamics was “Intrusive Distraction.”

      ●      P10: "Generation of the thought-space" - how stable are these word clouds to individual subjects? If there are subject-specific differences, are there ways to account for this with some form of normalization?

      Thank you for bringing up this point. Our current goal was to show how the average experience of one group of participants relates to the brain activity of a second group. In this regard it is important to seek the patterns of similarity across individuals in how they experience the film. However, as is normal in our studies using mDES, we can also use the variation from the mean to predict other cognitive measures and, in this way, account for the variability that individuals have in their movie-watching experience. In other words, the word clouds reflect the mean of a particular dimension, so when an individual score is close to 0, their thought content does not align with this dimension -- however, deviating scores, positive or negative, indicating that this dimension provides meaningful information about the individual's experience. Evidence of the meaningful nature of this variation can be seen in the links between the reported thoughts and the individuals’ comprehension (e.g. individuals whose thoughts do not contain strong evidence of “Intrusive Distraction”, or in other words, a negative score, tended to do better on comprehension tests of information in the movies they watched).

      ●      P11: "Variation in thought patterns" - can the authors use a null model here to demonstrate that the associations they've observed would occur above chance levels (e.g., for a comparison of time series with similar temporal autocorrelation but non-preserved semantic structure)? Further, were there any pre-defined hypotheses over whether any of the three different movies would engage any of the 4 observed dimensions?

      This is a great point. We chose to sample from three distinctly different films to help us understand if mDES was sensitive to different semantic and affective features of films. Our analysis, therefore, shows that at a broad level, mDES is able to discriminate between films, highlighting its broad sensitivity to variation in semantic or affective content. Armed with this knowledge, researchers in the future could derive mechanistic insights into how the semantic features may influence the mDES data. For example, future studies could ask participants to watch movies in a scrambled order to understand how varying the structure of semantics or information breaks the mapping between brains and ongoing experience. In this revision we have amended the text to reflect this possibility:

      Page 34 [674-679]. Our analysis shows that mDES is able to discriminate between films, highlighting its broad sensitivity to variation in semantic or affective content. Armed with this knowledge, we propose that in the future, researchers could derive mechanistic insights into how the semantic features may influence the mDES data. For example, it may be possible to ask participants to watch movies in a scrambled order to understand how the structure of semantic or information influences the mapping between brains and ongoing experience as measured by mDES.

      ●      P14: "Brain - Thought Mappings: Voxel-space Analysis" - this is a cool analysis, and a nice validation of the authors' approach. I would personally love to see some form of reliability analysis on these approaches - e.g., do the same locations in the cerebral cortex align with the four features in all three movies? Across subjects?

      This is another great point, and we thank you for your enthusiasm. The data we have has only sampled mDES during a relatively short period of brain activity which we suspect would make an individual-by-individual analysis underpowered. In the future, however, it may be possible to adopt a precision mapping approach in which we sample mDES during longer periods of movie watching and identify how group-level mappings of experience relate to brain activity within a single subject. To reflect this possibility, we have amended the text in this revision in the following way:

      Page 34-35 [672-687]: In addition, our study is correlational in nature, and in the future, it could be useful to generate a more mechanistic understanding of how brain activity maps onto the participants' experience. Our analysis shows that mDES is able to discriminate between films, highlighting its broad sensitivity to variation in semantic or affective content. Armed with this knowledge, we propose that in the future, researchers could derive mechanistic insights into how the semantic features may influence the mDES data. For example, it may be possible to ask participants to watch movies in a scrambled order to understand how the structure of semantic or information influences the mapping between brains and ongoing experience as measured by mDES. Finally, our study focused on mapping group-level patterns of experience onto group-level descriptions of brain activity. In the future, it may be possible to adopt a “precision-mapping” approach by measuring longer periods of experience using mDES and determining how the neural correlates of experience vary across individuals who watched the same movies while brain activity was collected [1]. In the future, we anticipate that the ease with which our method can be applied to different groups of individuals and different types of media will make it possible to build a more comprehensive and culturally inclusive understanding of the links between brain activity and movie-watching experience

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) The three-dimensional scatter plot in Figure 2 does not represent "Intrusive Distraction." Would it make sense to color-code dots by this important dimension?

      Thank you for this suggestion. Although it could be possible to indicate the location of each film in all four dimensions, we were worried that this would make the already complex 3-D space confusing to a naive reader. In this case, we prefer to provide this information in the form of bar graphs, as we did in the previous submission.

      (2) The coloring of neural activation patterns in Figure 3 is not distinct enough between the different dimensions of thought. Please reconsider color intensities or coding. The same applies to the left panel in Figure 4.

      Thanks for this comment; we found it quite difficult to find a colour mapping that allows us to show the distinction between four states in a simple manner, yet we believe it is valuable to show all of the results on a similar brain. Nonetheless, to provide a more fine-grained viewing of our results in this revision we have provided a supplementary figure (Supplementary Figure 6) that shows each of the observed patterns of activity in isolation.

      (3) The new method (mDES) is mentioned too often without explanation, making it hard to follow without referring to the methods section. It would be helpful to state prominently that participants rated their thoughts on different dimensions instead of verbalizing them.

      Thank you for this point, we have adjusted the Introduction to clarify and expand on the mDES method. We have also included an example of the mDES method in an additional figure that we have now included to visually express how participants respond to mDES probes (Figure 3).

      Page 6-7 [136-148]: In our study, we used multi-dimensional experience sampling (mDES) to describe ongoing thought patterns during the movie-watching experience [2]. mDES is an experience sampling method that identifies different features of thought by probing participants about multiple dimensions of their experiences. mDES can provide a description of a person’s thoughts, generating reliable thought patterns across laboratory cognitive tasks [3-5] and in daily life [6, 7], and is sensitive to accompanying changes in brain activity when reports are gained during scanning [8, 9]. Studies that use mDES to describe experience ask participants to provide experiential reports by answering a set of questions about different features of their thought on a continuous scale from 1 (Not at all) to 10 (Completely) [3, 5-14]. Each question describes a different feature of experience, such as if their thoughts are oriented in the future or the past, about oneself or other people, deliberate or intrusive in nature, and more (See Methods for a full list of questions used in the current study).

      Author response image 1.

      (4) Reporting of single-movie thought patterns seems quite extensive. Could this be condensed in the main text?

      Thank you for this point, upon re-visiting the manuscript, we have adjusted the text to be more concise.

      Reviewer #3:

      ●      This is a very elegant experiment and seems like a very promising approach. The text is currently hard to read.

      Thank you for this point, we have since revisited the text and adjusted the manuscript to be more concise and add more clarity.

      ●      The introduction (+ analysis goals) fails to explain the basic aspects of the analysis and dataset. It is not clear how many participants and datapoints were used to establish the group-level thought patterns, nor is it entirely clear that the fMRI data is a separate existing dataset. Some terms are introduced and highlighted and never revisited (e.g decoupled states and the role of the DMN).

      Thank you for this critique, we have since adjusted the introduction to clearly explain the difference between Sample 1 and Sample 2 and further clarify that the fMRI data is an entirely separate, independent sample compared to the laboratory mDES sample:

      Page 7-8 [158-174]: Thus, to overcome this obstacle, we developed a novel methodological approach using two independent sample participants. In the current study, one set of 120 participants was probed with mDES five times across the three ten-minute movie clips (11 minutes total, no sampling in the first minute). We used a jittered sampling technique where probes were delivered at different intervals across the film for different people depending on the condition they were assigned. Probe orders were also counterbalanced to minimize the systematic impact of prior and later probes at any given sampling moment. We used these data to construct a precise description of the dynamics of experience for every 15 seconds of three ten-minute movie clips. These data were then combined with fMRI data from a different sample of 44 participants who had already watched these clips without experience sampling [15]. By combining data from two different groups of participants, our method allows us to describe the time series of different experiential states (as defined by mDES) and relate these to the time series of brain activity in another set of participants who watched the same films with no interruptions. In this way, our study set out to explicitly understand how the patterns of thoughts that dominate different moments in a film in one group of participants relate to the brain activity at these time points in a second set of participants and, therefore, better understand the contribution of different neural systems to the movie-watching experience.

      Page 8-9 [177-188] The goal of our study, therefore, was to understand the association between patterns of brain activity over time during movie clips in one group of participants and the patterns of thought that participants reported at the corresponding moment in a different set of participants (see Figure 1). This can be conceptualized as identifying the mapping between two multi-dimensional spaces, one reflecting the time series of brain activity and the other describing the time series of ongoing experience (see Figure 1 right-hand panel). In our study, we selected three 11-minute clips from movies (Citizenfour, Little Miss Sunshine and 500 Days of Summer) for which recordings of brain data in fMRI already existed (n = 44) [15] (Figure 1, Sample 1). A second set of participants (n = 120) viewed the same movie clips, providing intermittent reports on their thought patterns using mDES (Figure 1, Sample 2). Our goal was to understand the mapping between the patterns of brain activity at each moment of the film and the reports of ongoing thought recorded at the same point in the movies.

      ●      It is unclear what the utility of the method is - is it meant to be done in fMRI studies on the same participants? Or is the idea to use one sample to model another?

      Great point, thank you for highlighting this important question. This paper aimed to interrogate the relationship between experience and neural states while preserving the novelty of movie-watching. Although it could be done in the same sample, it may be difficult to collect frequent reports of experience without interrupting the dynamics of the brain. However, in the future it could be possible to collect mDES and brain activity in the same individuals while they watched movies. For example, our prior studies (e.g. [9]) where we combined mDES with openly-available brain data activity during tasks. In the future, this online method could also be applied during movie watching to identify direct mapping between brain activity and films. However, this online approach would make it very expensive to produce the time series of experience across each clip given that it would require a large number of participants (e.g. 200 as we used in our current study). The following has been included in our manuscript:

      Page 7 [149-159] One challenge that arises when attempting to map the dynamics of thought onto brain activity during movie watching is accounting for the inherently disruptive nature of experience sampling: to measure experience with sufficient frequency to map the dynamics of thoughts during movies would disrupt the natural dynamics of the brain and would also alter the viewer’s experience (for example, by pausing the film at a moment of suspense). Therefore, if we periodically interrupt viewers to acquire a description of their thoughts while recording brain activity, this could impact capturing important dynamic features of the brain. On the other hand, if we measured fMRI activity continuously over movie-watching (as is usually the case), we would lack the capacity to directly relate brain signals to the corresponding experiential states. Thus, to overcome this obstacle, we developed a novel methodological approach using two independent sample participants

      ●      The conclusions currently read as somewhat trivial (e.g "Our study, therefore, establishes both sensory and association cortex as core features of the movie-watching experience", "Our study supports the hypothesis that perceptual coupling between the brain and external input is a core feature of how we make sense of events in movies").

      Thank you for this comment. In this revision we have attempted to extend the theoretical significance of our work in the discussion (for example, in contrasting the links between Intrusive distraction and the other components). To this end we have amended the text in this revision by including the following sections:

      Page 33-35 [654-687]: Importantly, our study provides a novel method for answering these questions and others regarding the brain basis of experiences during films that can be applied simply and cost-effectively. As we have shown mDES can be combined with existing brain activity allowing information about both brain activity and experience to be determined at a relatively low cost.  For example, the cost-effective nature of our paradigm makes it an ideal way to explore the relationship between cognition and neural activity during movie-watching during different genres of film. In neuroimaging, conclusions are often made using one film in naturalistic paradigm studies [16]. Although the current study only used three movie clips, restraining our ability to form strong conclusions regarding how different patterns of thought relate to specific genres of film, in the future, it will be possible to map cognition across a more extensive set of movies and discern whether there are specific types of experience that different genres of films engage. One of the major strengths of our approach, therefore, is the ability to map thoughts across groups of participants across a wide range of movies at a relatively low cost.

      Nonetheless, this paradigm is not without limitations. This is the first study, as far as we know, that attempts to compare experiential reports in one sample of participants with brain activity in a second set of participants, and while the utility of this method enables us to understand the relationship between thought and brain activity during movies, it will be important to extend our analysis to mDES data during movie watching while brain activity is recorded. In addition, our study is correlational in nature, and in the future, it could be useful to generate a more mechanistic understanding of how brain activity maps onto the participants experience. Our analysis shows that mDES is able to discriminate between films, highlighting its broad sensitivity to variation in semantic or affective content. Armed with this knowledge, we propose that in the future, researchers could derive mechanistic insights into how the semantic features may influence the mDES data. For example, it may be possible to ask participants to watch movies in a scrambled order to understand how the structure of semantic or information influences the mapping between brains and ongoing experience as measured by mDES. Finally, our study focused on mapping group-level patterns of experience onto group-level descriptions of brain activity. In the future it may be possible to adopt a “precision-mapping” approach by measuring longer periods of experience using mDES and determining how the neural correlates of experience vary across individuals who watched the same movies while brain activity was collected [1]. In the future, we anticipate that the ease with which our method can be applied to different groups of individuals and different types of media will make it possible to build a more comprehensive and culturally inclusive understanding of the links between brain activity and movie-watching experience

      ●      The beginning of the discussion is very clear and explains the study very well. Some of it could be brought up in the intro/analysis goal sections.

      Thank you for this comment, this is an excellent idea. We have revisited the introduction and analysis goals section to mirror this clarity across the manuscript.

      ●      The different components are very interesting, and not entirely clear. Some examples in the text could help. Especially regarding your thought that verbal components would refer to a "decoupled" mental verbal analysis participants might be performing in their thoughts.

      Thank you for this point. We would prefer not to elaborate on this point since, at present, it would simply be conjecture based on our correlational design. However, we have included a section in the discussion which explains how, in principle, we would draw more mechanistic conclusions (for example, by shuffling the order of scenes in a movie as suggested by another reviewer). In the current revision, we have amended the text in the following way:

      Page 34 [674-679]: Our analysis shows that mDES is able to discriminate between films, highlighting its broad sensitivity to variation in semantic or affective content. Armed with this knowledge, we propose that in the future, researchers could derive mechanistic insights into how the semantic features may influence the mDES data. For example, it may be possible to ask participants to watch movies in a scrambled order to understand how the structure of semantic or information influences the mapping between brains and ongoing experience as measured by mDES

      ●      The reference to using neurosynth as performing a meta-analysis seems a little stretched.

      We have adjusted the manuscript to remove ‘meta-analysis’ when referring to the analysis computed with neurosynth. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

      ●      State-space is defined as brain-space in the methods.

      Thank you, we have since updated this.

      ●      It could be useful to remind the reader what thought and brain spaces are at the top of the state-space results section.

      This is an excellent point, and it has since been updated to remind the reader of thought- and brain-space. Thank you for this comment.

      Page 24 [458-467]: Our next analysis used a “state-space” approach to determine how brain activity at each moment in the film predicted the patterns of thoughts reported at these moments (for prior examples in the domain of tasks, see [12, 17], See Methods). In this analysis, we used the coordinates of the group average of each TR in the “brain-space” and the coordinates of each experience sampling moment in the “thought-space.”. To clarify, the location of a moment in a film in “brain-space” is calculated by projecting the grand mean of brain activity for each volume of each film against the first five dimensions of brain activity from a decomposition of the Human Connectome Project (HCP) resting state data, referred to as Gradients 1-5. “Thought-space” is the decomposition of mDES items to create thought pattern components, referred to as “Episodic Knowledge”, “Intrusive Distraction”, “Verbal Detail” and “Sensory Engagement.”

      ●      DF missing from the t-test for episodic knowledge/grad 4.

      Thank you for catching this, the degrees of freedom has since been included in this revision.

      Page 24 [474-476]: First, we found a significant main effect of Gradient 4 (DAN to Visual), which predicted the similarity of answers to the “Episodic Knowledge” component, t(2046) = 2.17, p = .013, η2 = .01.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      ●      The lack of direct interrogation of individual differences/reliability of the mDES scores warrants some pause.

      Our study's goal was to understand how group-level patterns of thought in one group of participants relate to brain activity in a different group of participants. To this end, we decomposed trial-level mDES data to show dimensions that are common across individuals, which demonstrated excellent split-half reliability. Then we used these data in two complementary ways. First, we established that these ratings reliably distinguished between the different films (showing that our approach is sensitive to manipulations of semantic and affective features in a film) and that these group-level patterns were also able to predict patterns of brain activity in a different group of participants (suggesting that mDES dimensions are also sensitive to broad differences in how brain activity emerges during movie watching). Second, we established that variation across individuals in their mDES scores predicted their comprehension of information from the films. This establishes that when applied to movie-watching, mDES is sensitive to individual differences in the movie-watching experience (as determined by an individual's comprehension). Given the success of this study and the relative ease with which mDES can be performed, it will be possible in the future to conduct mDES studies that hone in on the common and distinct features of the movie-watching experience.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) The dimensions of thought seem to distinguish between sensory and executive processing states. However, it is unclear if this effect primarily pertains to thinking. I could imagine highly intrusive distractions in movie segments to correlate with stagnating plot development, little change in scenery, or incomprehensible events. Put differently, it may primarily be the properties of the movies that evoke different processing modes, but these properties are not accounted for. For example, I'm wondering whether a simple measure of engagement with stimulus materials could explain the effects just as much. How can the effects of thinking be distinguished from the perceptual and semantic properties of the movie, as well as attentional effects? Is the measure used here capturing thought processes beyond what other factors could explain?

      Our study used mDES to identify four distinct components of experience, each of which had distinct behavioural and neural correlates and relationships to comprehension. Together this makes it unlikely that a single measure of engagement would be able to capture the range of effects we observed in our study. For example, “Intrusive Distraction” was associated with regions of association cortex, while the other three components highlighted regions of sensory cortex. Behaviorally, we found that some components had a common effect on comprehension (e.g. “Intrusive distraction” was related to worse comprehension across all films), while others were linked to clear benefits to comprehension in specific films (e.g. “Episodic Knowledge” was associated with better comprehension in only one of the films). Given the complex nature of these effects, it would be difficult for a single metric of engagement to explain this pattern of results, and even if it did, this could be misleading because our analysis implies that they are better explained by a model of movie-watching experience in which there are several relatively orthogonal dimensions upon which our experience can vary.

      At the same time, we also found that films vary in the general types of experience they can engender. For example, Citizenfour was high on “Intrusive Distraction” and participants performed relatively low on comprehension. This shows that manipulations of the semantic and affective content of films also have implications for the movie-watching experience. This pattern is consistent with laboratory studies that applied mDES during tasks and found that different tasks evoke different types of experience (for example, patterns of ‘intrusive’ thoughts were common in movie clips that were suspenseful, [18]). At the same time, in the same study, patterns of intrusive thought across the tasks were also associated with trait levels of dysphoria reported by participants. Other studies using mDES in daily life have shown that the data can be described by multiple dimensions and that each of these types of thought is more prevalent in certain activities than others ([19]). For example, in daily life, patterns of ‘intrusive distraction’ thoughts were more prevalent when individuals were engaged in activities that were relatively unengaging (such as resting). Collectively, therefore, studies using mDES suggest that is likely that human thought is multidimensional in nature and that these dimensions vary in a complex way in terms of (a) the contexts that promote them, and (b) how they are impacted by features of the individual (whether they be traits like anxiety or depression or memory for information in a film).

      (2) I'm skeptical about taking human thought ratings at face value. Intrusive distraction might imply disengagement from stimulus materials, but it could also be an intended effect of the movie to trigger higher-level, abstract thinking. Can a label like intrusive distraction be misleading without considering the actual thought and movie content?

      Our method uses a data-driven approach to identify the dimensions that best describe the range of answers that our participants provided to describe their experience. We use these dimensions to understand how these patterns of thought emerge in different contexts and how they vary across individuals (in this case, in different movies, but in other studies, laboratory tasks [3, 8, 9, 12, 20-22] or activities in daily life[6, 7]). These context relationships help constrain interpretations of what the components mean. For example, “Intrusive Distraction” scores were highest in the film with the most real-world significance for the participants (Citizenfour) and were associated with worse comprehension. In daily life, however, patterns of “Intrusive Distraction” thoughts tend to occur when activities engage in non-demanding activities, like resting. Psychological perspectives on thoughts that arise spontaneously occur in this manner since there is evidence that they occur in non-demanding tasks with no semantic content (when there is almost no external stimulus to explain the occurrence of the experience, see [23]), however, other studies have shown that specific cues in the environment can also cue the experience (see [23]). Consistent with this perspective, and our current data, patterns of ‘Intrusive Distraction’ thought are likely to arise for multiple reasons, some of which are more intrinsic in nature (the general association with poor comprehension across all films) and others which are extrinsic in nature (the elevation of intrusive distraction in Citizenfour).

      It is also important to note that our data-driven approach also found patterns of experience that provide more information about the content of their experience, for example, the dimension of “Episodic Knowledge” is characterized by thoughts based on prior knowledge, involving the past, and concerning oneself, and was most prevalent in the romance film (500 Days of Summer). Likewise, “Sensory Engagement” was associated with experiences related to sensory input and positive emotionality and occurred more during the romance movie (500 Days of Summer) than in the documentary (Citizenfour) and was linked to increased brain activity across the sensory systems. This shows that mDES can also provide information about the content of that experience, and discriminate between different sources of experience. In the future, it will be possible to improve the level of detail regarding the content of experiences by changing the questions used to interrogate experience.     

      (3) A jittered sampling approach is used to acquire thought ratings every 15 seconds. Are ratings for the same time point averaged across participants? If so, how consistent are ratings among participants? High consistency would suggest thoughts are mainly stimulus-evoked. Low consistency would question the validity of applying ratings from one (group of) participant(s) to brain-related analyses of another participant.

      In this experiment, we sampled experience every 15 seconds in each clip, and in each sampling epoch, we gained mDES responses from eight participants. Furthermore, no participant was sampled at an adjacent time point, as our approach jittered probes approximately 2 minutes apart (See Supplementary Figure 7). To illustrate the consistency of mDES data, we have included an additional figure (Figure 3) highlighting how experience varies over time in each clip. It is evident from these plots that there are distinct moments in which group-averaged reported thoughts across participants are stable and that these can extend across adjacent sampling points (i.e. when the confidence intervals of the score at a timepoint do not overlap with zero). Therefore, in some cases, adjacent sampling points, consisting of different sets of eight participants, describe their experiences as having similar positions on the same mDES dimension. This suggests that there is agreement among individuals regarding how they experienced a specific moment in a film, and in some cases, this agreement was apparent in successive sets of eight participants. Together, our findings indicate a conservation of agreement across participants that spans multiple moments in a film. A clear example of agreement on experience across multiple sets of 10 participants can be seen between 150-400 seconds in the clip from 500 Days of Summer for the dimension of “Sensory Engagement” (time series plot 4 in Figure 3).

      (4) Using three different movies to conclude that different genres evoke different thought patterns (e.g., line 277) seems like an overinterpretation with only one instance per genre.

      We found that mDES was able to distinguish between each film on at least one dimension of experience. In other words, information encoded in the mDES dimensions was sensitive to variation in semantic and affective experiences in the different movie clips. This provides evidence that is necessary but not sufficient to conclude that we can distinguish different genres of films (i.e. if we could not distinguish between films, then we would not be able to distinguish genres). However, it is correct that to begin answering the broader question about experiences in different genres then it would be necessary to map cognition across a larger set of movies, ideally with multiple examples of each genre.

      (5) I see no indication that results were cross-validated, and no effect sizes are reported, leaving the robustness and strength of effects unknown.

      Thank you for drawing this to our attention. We have re-run the LMMs and ANOVA models to include partial eta-squared values to clarify the strength of the effects in each of our reported outcomes.

      Reviewer #3:

      ●      What are the considerations for treating high-order thought patterns that occur during film viewing as stable enough to be used across participants? What would be the limitations of this method? (Do all people reading this paper think comparable thoughts reading through the sections?)

      It is likely, based on our study, that films can evoke both stereotyped thought patterns (i.e. thoughts that many people will share) and others that are individualistic. It is clear that, in principle, mDES is capable of capturing empirical information on both stereotypical thoughts and idiosyncratic thoughts. For example, clear differences in experiences across films and, in particular, during specific periods within a film, show that movie-watching can evoke broadly similar thought patterns in different groups of participants (see Figure 3 right-hand panel). On the other hand, the association between comprehension and the different mDES components indicate that certain individuals respond to the same film clip in different ways and that these differences are rooted in objective information (i.e. their memory of an event in a film clip). A clear example of these more idiosyncratic features of movie watching experience can be seen in the association between “Episodic Knowledge” and comprehension. We found that “Episodic Knowledge” was generally high in the romance clip from 500 Days of Summer but was especially high for individuals who performed the best, indicating they remembered the most information. Thus good comprehends responded to the 500 Days of Summer clip with responses that had more evidence of “Episodic Knowledge” In the future, since the mDES approach can account for both stereotyped and idiosyncratic features of experience, it will be an important tool in understanding the common and distinct features that movie watching experiences can have, especially given the cost effective manner with which these studies can be run.   

      ●      How does this approach differ from collaborative filtering, (for example as presented in Chang et al., 2021)?

      Our study is very similar to the notion of collaborative filtering since we can use an approach that is similar to crowd-sourcing as a tool for understanding brain activity. One of its strengths is its generalizability since it is also a method that can be used to understand cognition because it is not limited to movie-watching. We can use the same mDES method to sample cognition in multiple situations in daily life ([6, 19]), while performing tasks in the behavioural lab [18, 24], and while brain activity is being acquired [8, 25, 26]. In principle, therefore, we can use mDES to understand cognition in different contexts in a common analytic space (see [27] for an example of how this could work)

      Page 5 [106-110]: In our study, we acquired experiential data in one group of participants while watching a movie clip and used these data to understand brain activity recorded in a second set of participants who watched the same clip and for whom no experiential data was recorded. This approach is similar to what is known as “collaborative filtering” [28].

      ●      In conclusion, this study tackles a highly interesting subject and does it creatively and expertly. It fails to discuss and establish the utility and appropriateness of its proposed method.

      Thank you very much for your feedback and critique. In our revision and our responses to these questions, we provided more information about the method's robustness utility and application to understanding cognition.

      References

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      (2) Smallwood, J., et al., The neural correlates of ongoing conscious thought. Iscience, 2021. 24(3).

      (3) Konu, D., et al., Exploring patterns of ongoing thought under naturalistic and conventional task-based conditions. Consciousness and Cognition, 2021. 93.

      (4) Smallwood, J., et al., The default mode network in cognition: a topographical perspective. Nature Reviews Neuroscience, 2021. 22(8): p. 503-513.

      (5) Turnbull, A., et al., Age-related changes in ongoing thought relate to external context and individual cognition. Consciousness and Cognition, 2021. 96: p. 103226.

      (6) McKeown, B., et al., The impact of social isolation and changes in work patterns on ongoing thought during the first COVID-19 lockdown in the United Kingdom. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2021. 118(40): p. e2102565118.

      (7) Mulholland, B., et al., Patterns of ongoing thought in the real world. Consciousness and Cognition, 2023. 114: p. 103530.

      (8) Konu, D., et al., A role for the ventromedial prefrontal cortex in self-generated episodic social cognition. NeuroImage, 2020. 218: p. 116977.

      (9) Turnbull, A., et al., Left dorsolateral prefrontal cortex supports context-dependent prioritisation of off-task thought. Nature Communications, 2019. 10.

      (10) Ho, N.S.P., et al., Facing up to the wandering mind: Patterns of off-task laboratory thought are associated with stronger neural recruitment of right fusiform cortex while processing facial stimuli. NeuroImage, 2020. 214: p. 116765.

      (11) Karapanagiotidis, T., et al., Tracking thoughts: Exploring the neural architecture of mental time travel during mind-wandering. NeuroImage, 2017. 147: p. 272-281.

      (12) McKeown, B., et al., Experience sampling reveals the role that covert goal states play in task-relevant behavior. Scientific Reports, 2023. 13(1): p. 21710.

      (13) Vatansever, D., et al., Distinct patterns of thought mediate the link between brain functional connectomes and well-being. Network Neuroscience, 2020. 4(3): p. 637-657.

      (14) Wang, H.-T., et al., Dimensions of Experience: Exploring the Heterogeneity of the Wandering Mind. Psychological Science, 2017. 29(1): p. 56-71.

      (15) Aliko, S., et al., A naturalistic neuroimaging database for understanding the brain using ecological stimuli. Scientific Data, 2020. 7(1).

      (16) Yang, E., et al., The default network dominates neural responses to evolving movie stories. Nature Communications, 2023. 14(1): p. 4197.

      (17) Turnbull, A., et al., Reductions in task positive neural systems occur with the passage of time and are associated with changes in ongoing thought. Scientific Reports, 2020. 10(1): p. 9912.

      (18) Konu, D., et al., Exploring patterns of ongoing thought under naturalistic and conventional task-based conditions. Consciousness and cognition, 2021. 93: p. 103139.

      (19) Mulholland, B., et al., Patterns of ongoing thought in the real world. Consciousness and cognition, 2023. 114: p. 103530.

      (20) Christoff, K., et al., Experience sampling during fMRI reveals default network and executive system contributions to mind wandering. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 2009. 106(21): p. 8719-24.

      (21) Zhang, M., et al., Perceptual coupling and decoupling of the default mode network during mind-wandering and reading. eLife, 2022. 11: p. e74011.

      (22) Zhang, M.C., et al., Distinct individual differences in default mode network connectivity relate to off-task thought and text memory during reading. Scientific Reports, 2019. 9.

      (23) Smallwood, J. and J.W. Schooler, The science of mind wandering: Empirically navigating the stream of consciousness. Annual review of psychology, 2015. 66(1): p. 487-518.

      (24) Turnbull, A., et al., The ebb and flow of attention: Between-subject variation in intrinsic connectivity and cognition associated with the dynamics of ongoing experience. Neuroimage, 2019. 185: p. 286-299.

      (25) Turnbull, A., et al., Left dorsolateral prefrontal cortex supports context-dependent prioritisation of off-task thought. Nature communications, 2019. 10(1): p. 3816.

      (26) Mckeown, B., et al., Experience sampling reveals the role that covert goal states play in task-relevant behavior. Scientific reports, 2023. 13(1): p. 21710.

      (27) Chitiz, L., et al., Mapping cognition across lab and daily life using experience-sampling. 2023.

      (28) Chang, L.J., et al., Endogenous variation in ventromedial prefrontal cortex state dynamics during naturalistic viewing reflects affective experience. Science Advances, 2021. 7(17): p. eabf7129.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This is an interesting study investigating the mechanisms underlying membrane targeting of the NLRP3 inflammasome and reporting a key role for the palmitoylation-depalmitoylation cycle of cys130 in NRLP3. The authors identify ZDHHC3 and APT2 as the specific ZDHHC and APT/ABHD enzymes that are responsible for the s-acylation and de-acylation of NLRP3, respectively. They show that the levels of ZDHHC3 and APT2, both localized at the Golgi, control the level of palmitoylation of NLRP3. The S-acylation-mediated membrane targeting of NLRP3 cooperates with polybasic domain (PBD)-mediated PI4P-binding to target NLRP3 to the TGN under steady-state conditions and to the disassembled TGN induced by the NLRP3 activator nigericin.

      However, the study has several weaknesses in its current form as outlined below.

      (1) The novelty of the findings concerning cys130 palmitoylation in NLRP3 is unfortunately compromised by recent reports on the acylation of different cysteines in NLRP3 (PMID: 38092000), including palmitoylation of the very same cys130 in NLRP3 (Yu et al https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.11.07.566005), which was shown to be relevant for NLRP3 activation in cell and animal models. What remains novel and intriguing is the finding that NLRP3 activators induce an imbalance in the acylation-deacylation cycle by segregating NLRP3 in late Golgi/endosomes from de-acylating enzymes confined in the Golgi. The interesting hypothesis put forward by the authors is that the increased palmitoylation of cys130 would finally contribute to the activation of NLRP3. However, the authors should clarify the trafficking pathway of acylated-NLRP3. This pathway should, in principle, coincide with that of TGN46 which constitutively recycles from the TGN to the plasma membrane and is trapped in endosomes upon treatment with nigericin. 

      We think the data presented in our manuscript are consistent with the majority of S-acylated NLRP3 remaining on the Golgi via S-acylation in both untreated and nigericin treated cells. We have performed an experiment with BrefeldinA (BFA), a fungal metabolite that disassembles the Golgi without causing dissolution of early endosomes, that further supports the conclusion that NLRP3 predominantly resides on Golgi membranes pre and post activation. Treatment of cells with BFA prevents recruitment of NLRP3 to the Golgi in untreated cells and blocks the accumulation of NLRP3 on the structures seen in the perinuclear area after nigericin treatment (see new Supplementary Figure 4A-D). We do see some overlap of NLRP3 signal with TGN46 in the perinuclear area after nigericin treatment (see new Supplementary Figure 2E), however this likely represents TGN46 at the Golgi rather than endosomes given that the NLRP3 signal in this area is BFA sensitive.  As with 2-BP and GFP-NLRP3C130S, GFP-NLRP3 spots also form in BFA / nigericin co-treated cells but not with untagged NLRP3. These spots also do not show any co-localisation with EEA1, suggesting that under these conditions, endosomes don’t appear to represent a secondary site of NLRP3 recruitment in the absence of an intact Golgi. However, we cannot completely rule out that some NLRP3 may recruited to endosomes at some point during its activation.

      (2) To affect the S-acylation, the authors used 16 hrs treatment with 2-bromopalmitate (2BP). In Figure 1f, it is quite clear that NLRP3 in 2-BP treated cells completely redistributed in spots dispersed throughout the cells upon nigericin treatment. What is the Golgi like in those cells? In other words, does 2-BP alter/affect Golgi morphology? What about PI4P levels after 2-BP treatment? These are important missing pieces of data since both the localization of many proteins and the activity of one key PI4K in the Golgi (i.e. PI4KIIalpha) are regulated by palmitoylation.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this point and agree that it is possible the observed loss of NLRP3 from the Golgi might be due to an adverse effect of 2-BP on Golgi morphology or PI4P levels. We have tested the effect of 2-BP on the Golgi markers GM130, p230 and TGN46. 2BP has marginal effects on Golgi morphology with cis, trans and TGN markers all present at similar levels to untreated control cells (Supplementary Figure 2B-D). We also tested the effect of 2-BP on PI4P levels using mCherry-P4M, a PI4P biosensor. Surprisingly, as noted by the reviewer, despite recruitment of PI4K2A being dependent on S-acylation, PI4P was still present on the Golgi after 2-BP treatment, suggesting that a reduction in Golgi PI4P levels does not underly loss of NLRP3 from the Golgi (Supplementary Figure 2A). The pool of PI4P still present on the Golgi following 2-BP treatment is likely generated by other PI4K enzymes that localise to the Golgi independently of S-acylation, such as PI4KIIIB. We have included this data in our manuscript as part of a new Supplementary Figure 2. 

      (3) The authors argue that the spots observed with NLRP-GFP result from non-specific effects mediated by the addition of the GFP tag to the NLRP3 protein. However, puncta are visible upon nigericin treatment, as a hallmark of endosomal activation. How do the authors reconcile these data? Along the same lines, the NLRP3-C130S mutant behaves similarly to wt NLRP3 upon 2-BP treatment (Figure 1h). Are those NLRP3-C130S puncta positive for endosomal markers? Are they still positive for TGN46? Are they positive for PI4P?

      This is a fair point given the literature showing overlap of NLRP3 puncta formed in response to nigericin with endosomal markers and the similarity of the structures we see in terms of size and distribution to endosomes after 2BP + nigericin treatment. We have tested whether these puncta overlap with EEA1, TGN46 or PI4P (Supplementary Figure 2A, E-G). The vast majority of spots formed by GFP-NLRP3 co-treated with 2-BP and nigericin do not co-localise with EEA1, TGN46 or PI4P. This is consistent with these spots potentially being an artifact, although it has recently been shown that human NLRP3 unable to bind to the Golgi can still respond to nigericin (Mateo-Tórtola et al., 2023). These puncta might represent a conformational change cytosolic NLRP3 undergoes in response to stimulation, although our results suggest that this doesn’t appear to happen on endosomes.

      (4) The authors expressed the minimal NLRP3 region to identify the domain required for NLRP3 Golgi localization. These experiments were performed in control cells. It might be informative to perform the same experiments upon nigericin treatment to investigate the ability of NLRP3 to recognize activating signals. It has been reported that PI4P increases on Golgi and endosomes upon NG treatment. Hence, all the differences between the domains may be lost or preserved. In parallel, also the timing of such recruitment upon nigericin treatment (early or late event) may be informative for the dynamics of the process and of the contribution of the single protein domains.

      This is an interesting point which we thank the reviewer for highlighting. However, we think that each domain on its own is not capable of responding to nigericin as shown by the effect of mutations in helix115-125 or the PB region in the full-length NLRP3 protein. NLRP3HF, which still contains a functional PB region, isn’t capable of responding to nigericin in the same way as wild type NLRP3 (Supplementary Figure 6C-D). Similarly, mutations in the PB region of full length NLRP3 that leave helix115-125 intact show that helix115-125 is not sufficient to allow enhanced recruitment of NLRP3 to Golgi membranes after nigericin treatment (Supplementary Figure 9A). We speculate that helix115-125, the PB region and the LRR domain all need to be present to provide maximum affinity of NLRP3 for the Golgi prior to encounter with and S-acylation by ZDHHC3/7. Mutation or loss of any one of the PB region, helix115-125 or the LRR lowers NLRP3 membrane affinity, which is reflected by reduced levels of NLRP3 captured on the Golgi by S-acylation at steady state and in response to nigericin. 

      (5) As noted above for the chemical inhibitors (1) the authors should check the impact of altering the balance between acyl transferase and de-acylases on the Golgi organization and PI4P levels. What is the effect of overexpressing PATs on Golgi functions?

      We have checked the effect of APT2 overexpression on Golgi morphology and can show that it has no noticeable effect, ruling out an impact of APT on Golgi integrity as the reason for loss of NLRP3 from the Golgi in the presence of overexpressed APT2. We have included these images as Supplementary Figure 11H-J. 

      It is plausible that the effects of ZDHHC3 or ZDHHC7 on enhanced recruitment of NLRP3 to the Golgi may be via an effect on PI4P levels since, as mentioned above, both enzymes are involved in recruitment of PI4K2A to the Golgi and have previously been shown to enhance levels of PI4K2A and PI4P on the Golgi when overexpressed (Kutchukian et al., 2021). However, NLRP3 mutants with most of the charge removed from the PB region, which are presumably unable to interact with PI4P or other negatively charged lipids, are still capable of being recruited to the Golgi by excess ZDHHC3. This would suggest that the effect of overexpressed ZDHHC3 on NLRP3 is largely independent of changes in PI4P levels on the Golgi and instead driven by helix115-125 and S-acylation at Cys-130. The latter point is supported by the observation that NLRP3HF and NLRP3Cys130 are insensitive to ZDHHC3 overexpression.

      At the levels of HA-ZDHHC3 used in our experiments with NLRP3 (200ng pEF-Bos-HAZDHHC3 / c.a. 180,000 cells) we don’t see any adverse effect on Golgi morphology (Author response image 1), although it has been noted previously by others that higher levels of ZDHHC3 can have an impact on TGN46 (Ernst et al., 2018). ZDHHC3 overexpression surprisingly has no adverse effects on Golgi function and in fact enhances secretion from the Golgi (Ernst et al., 2018).  

      Author response image 1.

      Overexpression of HA-ZDHHC3 does not impact Golgi morphology. A) Representative confocal micrographs of HeLaM cells transfected with 200 ng HA-ZDHHC3 fixed and stained with antibodies to STX5 or TGN46. Scale bars = 10 µm. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper examines the recruitment of the inflammasome seeding pattern recognition receptor NLRP3 to the Golgi. Previously, electrostatic interactions between the polybasic region of NLRP3 and negatively charged lipids were implicated in membrane association. The current study reports that reversible S-acylation of the conserved Cys-130 residue, in conjunction with upstream hydrophobic residues plus the polybasic region, act together to promote Golgi localization of NLRP3, although additional parts of the protein are needed for full Golgi localization. Treatment with the bacterial ionophore nigericin inhibits membrane traffic and prevents Golgi-associated thioesterases from removing the acyl chain, causing NLRP3 to become immobilized at the Golgi. This mechanism is put forth as an explanation for how NLRP3 is activated in response to nigericin.

      Strengths:

      The experiments are generally well presented. It seems likely that Cys-130 does indeed play a previously unappreciated role in the membrane association of NLRP3.

      Weaknesses:

      The interpretations about the effects of nigericin are less convincing. Specific comments follow.

      (1) The experiments of Figure 4 bring into question whether Cys-130 is S-acylated. For Cys130, S-acylation was seen only upon expression of a severely truncated piece of the protein in conjunction with overexpression of ZDHHC3. How do the authors reconcile this result with the rest of the story?

      Providing direct evidence of S-acylation at Cys-130 in the full-length protein proved difficult. We attempted to detect S-acylation of this residue by mass spectrometry. However, the presence of the PB region and multiple lysines / arginines directly after Cys-130 made this approach technically challenging and we were unable to convincingly detect S-acylation at Cys-130 by M/S. However, Cys-130 is clearly important for membrane recruitment as its mutation abolishes the localisation of NLRP3 to the Golgi. It is feasible that it is the hydrophobic nature of the cysteine residue itself which supports localisation to the Golgi, rather than S-acylation of Cys-130. A similar role for cysteine residues present in SNAP-25 has been reported (Greaves et al., 2009). However, the rest of our data are consistent with Cys-130 in NLRP3 being S-acylated. We also refer to another recently published study which provides additional biochemical evidence that mutation of Cys-130 impacts the overall levels of NLRP3 S-acylation (Yu et al., 2024). 

      (2) Nigericin seems to cause fragmentation and vesiculation of the Golgi. That effect complicates the interpretations. For example, the FRAP experiment of Figure 5 is problematic because the authors neglected to show that the FRAP recovery kinetics of nonacylated resident Golgi proteins are unaffected by nigericin. Similarly, the colocalization analysis in Figure 6 is less than persuasive when considering that nigericin significantly alters Golgi structure and could indirectly affect colocalization. 

      We agree that it is likely that the behaviour of other Golgi resident proteins are altered by nigericin. This is in line with a recent proteomics study showing that nigericin alters the amount of Golgi resident proteins associated with the Golgi (Hollingsworth et al., 2024) and other work demonstrating that changes in organelle pH can influence the membrane on / off rates of Rab GTPases (Maxson et al., 2023). However, Golgi levels of other peripheral membrane proteins

      that associate with the Golgi through S-acylation, such as N-Ras, appear unaltered (Author response image 2.), indicating a degree of selectivity in the proteins affected. Our main point here is that NLRP3 is amongst those proteins whose behaviour on the Golgi is sensitive to nigericin and that this change in behaviour may be important to the NLRP3 activation process, although this requires further investigation and will form the basis of future studies. 

      The reduction in co-localisation between NLRP3 and APT2, due to alterations in Golgi organisation and trafficking, was the point we were trying to make with this figure, and we apologise if this was not clear. We think that the changes in Golgi structure and function caused by nigericin potentially affect the ability of APT2 to encounter NLRP3 and de-acylate it. We have added a new paragraph to the results section to hopefully explain this more clearly. We recognise that our results supporting this hypothesis are at present limited and we have toned down the language used in the results section to reflect the nature of these findings..  

      Author response image 2.

      S-acylated peripheral membrane proteins show differential sensitivity to nigericin. A) Representative confocal micrographs of HeLaM cells coexpressing GFP-NRas and an untagged NLRP3 construct. Cells were left untreated or treated with 10 µM nigericin for 1 hour prior to fixation. Scale bars = 10 µm. B) Quantification of GFP-NRas or NLRP3 signal in the perinuclear region of cells treated with or without nigericin

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Does overnight 2-BP treatment potentially have indirect effects that could prevent NLRP3 recruitment? It would be useful here to show some sort of control confirming that the cells are not broadly perturbed.

      Please see our response to point (2) raised by reviewer #1 which is along similar lines. 

      (2) In Figure 5, "Veh" presumably is short for "Vehicle". This term should be defined in the legend.

      We have now corrected this.

      References

      Ernst, A.M., S.A. Syed, O. Zaki, F. Bottanelli, H. Zheng, M. Hacke, Z. Xi, F. Rivera-Molina, M. Graham, A.A. Rebane, P. Bjorkholm, D. Baddeley, D. Toomre, F. Pincet, and J.E. Rothman. 2018. SPalmitoylation Sorts Membrane Cargo for Anterograde Transport in the Golgi. Dev Cell. 47:479-493 e477.

      Greaves, J., G.R. Prescott, Y. Fukata, M. Fukata, C. Salaun, and L.H. Chamberlain. 2009. The hydrophobic cysteine-rich domain of SNAP25 couples with downstream residues to mediate membrane interactions and recognition by DHHC palmitoyl transferases. Mol Biol Cell. 20:1845-1854.

      Hollingsworth, L.R., P. Veeraraghavan, J.A. Paulo, J.W. Harper, and I. Rauch. 2024. Spatiotemporal proteomic profiling of cellular responses to NLRP3 agonists. bioRxiv.

      Kutchukian, C., O. Vivas, M. Casas, J.G. Jones, S.A. Tiscione, S. Simo, D.S. Ory, R.E. Dixon, and E.J. Dickson. 2021. NPC1 regulates the distribution of phosphatidylinositol 4-kinases at Golgi and lysosomal membranes. EMBO J. 40:e105990.

      Mateo-Tórtola, M., I.V. Hochheiser, J. Grga, J.S. Mueller, M. Geyer, A.N.R. Weber, and A. TapiaAbellán. 2023. Non-decameric NLRP3 forms an MTOC-independent inflammasome. bioRxiv:2023.2007.2007.548075.

      Maxson, M.E., K.K. Huynh, and S. Grinstein. 2023. Endocytosis is regulated through the pHdependent phosphorylation of Rab GTPases by Parkinson’s kinase LRRK2. bioRxiv:2023.2002.2015.528749.

      Yu, T., D. Hou, J. Zhao, X. Lu, W.K. Greentree, Q. Zhao, M. Yang, D.G. Conde, M.E. Linder, and H. Lin. 2024. NLRP3 Cys126 palmitoylation by ZDHHC7 promotes inflammasome activation. Cell Rep. 43:114070.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We are grateful for these balanced, nuanced evaluations of our work concerning the observed epistatic trends and our interpretations of their mechanistic origins. Overall, we think the reviewers have done an excellent job at recognizing the novel aspects of our findings while also discussing the caveats associated with our interpretations of the biophysical effects of these mutations. We believe it is important to consider both of these aspects of our work in order to appreciate these advances and what sorts of pertinent questions remain.

      Notably, both reviewers are concerned that our lack of experimental approaches to compare the conformational properties of GnRHR variants weakens our claims. We would first humbly suggest that this constitutes a more general caveat that applies to nearly all investigations of the cellular misfolding of α-helical membrane proteins. Whether or not any current in vitro folding measurements report on conformational transitions that are relevant to cellular protein misfolding reactions remains an active area of debate (discussed further below). Nevertheless, while we concede that our structural and/ or computational evaluations of various mutagenic effects remain speculative, prevailing knowledge on the mechanisms of membrane protein folding suggest our mutations of interest (V276T and W107A) are highly unlikely to promote misfolding in precisely the same way. Thus, regardless of whether or not we were able experimentally compare the relevant folding energetics of GnRHR variants, we are confident that the distinct epistatic interactions formed by these mutations reflect variations in the misfolding mechanism and that they are distinct from the interactions that are observed in the context of stable proteins. In the following, we provide detailed considerations concerning these caveats in relation to the reviewers’ specific comments.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The paper carries out an impressive and exhaustive non-sense mutagenesis using deep mutational scanning (DMS) of the gonadotropin-releasing hormone receptor for the WT protein and two single point mutations that I) influence TM insertion (V267T) and ii) influence protein stability (W107A), and then measures the effect of these mutants on correct plasma membrane expression (PME).

      Overall, most mutations decreased mGnRHR PME levels in all three backgrounds, indicating poor mutational tolerance under these conditions. The W107A variant wasn't really recoverable with low levels of plasma membrane localisation. For the V267T variant, most additional mutations were more deleterious than WT based on correct trafficking, indicating a synergistic effect. As one might expect, there was a higher degree of positive correlation between V267T/W107A mutants and other mutants located in TM regions, confirming that improper trafficking was a likely consequence of membrane protein co-translational folding. Nevertheless, context is important, as positive synergistic mutants in the V27T could be negative in the W107A background and vice versa. Taken together, this important study highlights the complexity of membrane protein folding in dissecting the mechanism-dependent impact of disease-causing mutations related to improper trafficking.

      Strengths

      This is a novel and exhaustive approach to dissecting how receptor mutations under different mutational backgrounds related to co-translational folding, could influence membrane protein trafficking.

      Weaknesses

      The premise for the study requires an in-depth understanding of how the single-point mutations analysed affect membrane protein folding, but the single-point mutants used seem to lack proper validation.

      Given our limited understanding of the structural properties of misfolded membrane proteins, it is unclear whether the relevant conformational effects of these mutations can be unambiguously validated using current biochemical and/ or biophysical folding assays. X-ray crystallography, cryo-EM, and NMR spectroscopy measurements have demonstrated that many purified GPCRs retain native-like structural ensembles within certain detergent micelles, bicelles, and/ or nanodiscs. However, helical membrane protein folding measurements typically require titration with denaturing detergents to promote the formation of a denatured state ensemble (DSE), which will invariably retain considerable secondary structure. Given that the solvation provided by mixed micelles is clearly distinct from that of native membranes, it remains unclear whether these DSEs represent a reasonable proxy for the misfolded conformations recognized by cellular quality control (QC, see https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.chemrev.8b00532). Thus, the use and interpretation of these systems for such purposes remains contentious in the membrane protein folding community. In addition to this theoretical issue, we are unaware of any instances in which GPCRs have been found to undergo reversible denaturation in vitro- a practical requirement for equilibrium folding measurements (https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-biophys-051013-022926). We note that, while the resistance of GPCRs to aggregation, proteolysis, and/ or mechanical unfolding have also been probed in micelles, it is again unclear whether the associated thermal, kinetic, and/ or mechanical stability should necessarily correspond to their resistance to cotranslational and/ or posttranslational misfolding. Thus, even if we had attempted to validate the computational folding predictions employed herein, we suspect that any resulting correlations with cellular expression may have justifiably been viewed by many as circumstantial. Simply put, we know very little about the non-native conformations are generally involved in the cellular misfolding of α-helical membrane proteins, much less how to measure their relative abundance. From a philosophical standpoint, we prefer to let cells tell us what sorts of broken protein variants are degraded by their QC systems, then do our best to surmise what this tells us about the relevant properties of cellular DSEs.

      Despite this fundamental caveat, we believe that the chosen mutations and our interpretation of their relevant conformational effects are reasonably well-informed by current modeling tools and by prevailing knowledge on the physicochemical drivers of membrane protein folding and misfolding. Specifically, the mechanistic constraints of translocon-mediated membrane integration provide an understanding of the types of mutations that are likely to disrupt cotranslational folding. Though we are still learning about the protein complexes that mediate membrane translocation (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-022-05336-2), it is known that this underlying process is fundamentally driven by the membrane depth-dependent amino acid transfer free energies (https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev.biophys.37.032807.125904). This energetic consideration suggests introducing polar side chains near the center of a nascent TMDs should almost invariably reduce the efficiency of topogenesis. To confirm this in the context of TMD6 specifically, we utilized a well-established biochemical reporter system to confirm that V276T attenuates its translocon-mediated membrane integration (Fig. S1)- at least in the context of a chimeric protein. We also constructed a glycosylation-based topology reporter for full-length GnRHR, but ultimately found its’ in vitro expression to be insufficient to detect changes in the nascent topological ensemble.

      In contrast to V276T, the W107A mutation is predicted to preserve the native topological energetics of GnRHR due to its position within a soluble loop region. W107A is also unlike V276T in that it clearly disrupts tertiary interactions that stabilize the native structure. This mutation should preclude the formation of a structurally conserved hydrogen bonding network that has been observed in the context of at least 25 native GPCR structures (https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.5489). However, without a relevant folding assay, the extent to which this network stabilizes the native GnRHR fold in cellular membranes remains unclear. Overall, we admit that these limitations have prevented us from measuring how much V276T alters the efficiency of GnRHR topogenesis, how much the W107A destabilizes the native fold, or vice versa. Nevertheless, given these design principles and the fact that both reduce the plasma membrane expression of GnRHR, as expected, we are highly confident that the structural defects generated by these mutations do, in fact, promote misfolding in their own ways. We also concede that the degree to which these mutagenic perturbations are indeed selective for specific folding processes is somewhat uncertain. However, it seems exceedingly unlikely that these mutations should disrupt topogenesis and/ or the folding of the native topomer to the exact same extent. From our perspective, this is the most important consideration with respect to the validity of the conclusions we have made in this manuscript.

      Furthermore, plasma membrane expression has been used as a proxy for incorrect membrane protein folding, but this not necessarily be the case, as even correctly folded membrane proteins may not be trafficked correctly, at least, under heterologous expression conditions. In addition, mutations can affect trafficking and potential post-translational modifications, like glycosylation.

      While the reviewer is correct that the sorting of folded proteins within the secretory pathway is generally inefficient, it is also true that the maturation of nascent proteins within the ER generally bottlenecks the plasma membrane expression of most α-helical membrane proteins. Our group and several others have demonstrated that the efficiency of ER export generally appears to scale with the propensity of membrane proteins to achieve their correct topology and/ or to achieve their native fold (see https://doi.org/10.1021/jacs.5b03743 and https://doi.org/10.1021/jacs.8b08243). Notably, these investigations all involved proteins that contain native glycosylation and various other post-translational modification sites. While we cannot rule out that certain specific combinations of mutations may alter expression through their perturbation of post-translational GnRHR modifications, we feel confident that the general trends we have observed across hundreds of variants predominantly reflect changes in folding and cellular QC. This interpretation is supported by the relationship between observed trends in variant expression and Rosetta-based stability calculations, which we identified using unbiased unsupervised machine learning approaches (compare Figs. 6B & 6D).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, Chamness and colleagues make a pioneering effort to map epistatic interactions among mutations in a membrane protein. They introduce thousands of mutations to the mouse GnRH Receptor (GnRHR), either under wild-type background or two mutant backgrounds, representing mutations that destabilize GnRHR by distinct mechanisms. The first mutant background is W107A, destabilizing the tertiary fold, and the second, V276T, perturbing the efficiency of cotranslational insertion of TM6 to the membrane, which is essential for proper folding. They then measure the surface expression of these three mutant libraries, using it as a proxy for protein stability, since misfolded proteins do not typically make it to the plasma membrane. The resulting dataset is then used to shed light on how diverse mutations interact epistatically with the two genetic background mutations. Their main conclusion is that epistatic interactions vary depending on the degree of destabilization and the mechanism through which they perturb the protein. The mutation V276T forms primarily negative (aggravating) epistatic interactions with many mutations, as is common to destabilizing mutations in soluble proteins. Surprisingly, W107A forms many positive (alleviating) epistatic interactions with other mutations. They further show that the locations of secondary mutations correlate with the types of epistatic interactions they form with the above two mutants.

      Strengths:

      Such a high throughput study for epistasis in membrane proteins is pioneering, and the results are indeed illuminating. Examples of interesting findings are that: (1) No single mutation can dramatically rescue the destabilization introduced by W107A. (2) Epistasis with a secondary mutation is strongly influenced by the degree of destabilization introduced by the primary mutation. (3) Misfolding caused by mis-insertion tends to be aggravated by further mutations. The discussion of how protein folding energetics affects epistasis (Fig. 7) makes a lot of sense and lays out an interesting biophysical framework for the findings.

      Weaknesses:

      The major weakness comes from the potential limitations in the measurements of surface expression of severely misfolded mutants. This point is discussed quite fairly in the paper, in statements like "the W107A variant already exhibits marginal surface immunostaining" and many others. It seems that only about 5% of the W107A makes it to the plasma membrane compared to wild-type (Figures 2 and 3). This might be a low starting point from which to accurately measure the effects of secondary mutations.

      The reviewer raises an excellent point that we considered at length during the analysis of these data and the preparation of the manuscript. Though we remain confident in the integrity of these measurements and the corresponding analyses, we now realize this aspect of the data required further discussion and documentation which we have provided in the revised version of the manuscript as is described in the following.

      Still, the authors claim that measurements of W107A double mutants "still contain cellular subpopulations with surface immunostaining intensities that are well above or below that of the W107A single mutant, which suggests that this fluorescence signal is sensitive enough to detect subtle differences in the PME of these variants". I was not entirely convinced that this was true.

      We made this statement based on the simple observation that the surface immunostaining intensities across the population of recombinant cells expressing the library of W107A double mutants was consistently broader than that of recombinant cells expressing W107A GnRHR alone (see Author response image 1 for reference). Given that the recombinant cellular library represents a mix of cells expressing ~1600 individual variants that are each present at low abundance, the pronounced tails within this distribution presumably represent the composite staining of many small cellular subpopulations that express collections of variants that deviate from the expression of W107A to an extent that is significant enough to be visible on a log intensity plot.

      Author response image 1.

      Firstly, I think it would be important to test how much noise these measurements have and how much surface immunostaining the W107A mutant displays above the background of cells that do not express the protein at all.

      For reference, the average surface immunostaining intensity of HEK293T cells transiently expressing W107A GnRHR was 2.2-fold higher than that of the IRES-eGFP negative, untransfected cells within the same sample- the WT immunostaining intensity was 9.5-fold over background by comparison. Similarly, recombinant HEK293T cells expressing the W107A double mutant library had an average surface immunostaining intensity that was 2.6-fold over background across the two DMS trials. Thus, while the surface immunostaining of this variant is certainly diminished, we were still able to reliably detect W107A at the plasma membrane even under distinct expression regimes. We have included these and other signal-to-noise metrics for each experiment in the Results section of the revised manuscript.

      Beyond considerations related to intensity, we also previously noticed the relative intensity values for W107A double mutants exhibited considerable precision across our two biological replicates. If signal were too poor to detect changes in variant expression, we would have expected a plot of the intensity values across these two replicates to form a scatter. Instead, we found DMS intensity values for individual variants to be highly correlated from one replicate to the next (Pearson’s R2 = 0.95, see Author response image 2 for reference). This observation empirically demonstrates that this assay consistently differentiated between variants that exhibit slightly enhanced immunostaining from those that have even lower immunostaining than W107A GnRHR. We have included these discussion points in the Results section as well as scatter plots for replicate variant intensities within all three genetic backgrounds in Figure S3 of the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 2.

      But more importantly, it is not clear if under this regimen surface expression still reports on stability/protein fitness. It is unknown if the W107A retains any function or folding at all. For example, it is possible that the low amount of surface protein represents misfolded receptors that escaped the ER quality control.

      While we believe that such questions are outside the scope of this work, we certainly agree that it is entirely possible that some of these variants bypass QC without achieving their native fold. This topic is quite interesting to us but is quite challenging to assess in the context of GPCRs, which have complex fitness landscapes that involve their propensity to distinguish between different ligands, engage specific components associated with divergent downstream signaling pathways, and navigate between endocytic recycling/ degradation pathways following activation. In light of the inherent complexity of GPCR function, we humbly suggest our choice of a relatively simple property of an otherwise complex protein may be viewed as a virtue rather than a shortcoming. Protein fitness is typically cast as the product of abundance and activity. Rather than measuring an oversimplified, composite fitness metric, we focused on one variable (plasma membrane expression) and its dominant effector (folding). We believe restraining the scope in this manner was key for the elucidation of clear mechanistic insights.

      The differential clustering of epistatic mutations (Fig. 6) provides some interesting insights as to the rules that dictate epistasis, but these too are dominated by the magnitude of destabilization caused by one of the mutations. In this case, the secondary mutations that had the most interesting epistasis were exceedingly destabilizing. With this in mind, it is hard to interpret the results that emerge regarding the epistatic interactions of W107A. Furthermore, the most significant positive epistasis is observed when W107A is combined with additional mutations that almost completely abolish surface expression. It is likely that either mutation destabilizes the protein beyond repair. Therefore, what we can learn from the fact that such mutations have positive epistasis is not clear to me. Based on this, I am not sure that another mutation that disrupts the tertiary folding more mildly would not yield different results. With that said, I believe that the results regarding the epistasis of V276T with other mutations are strong and very interesting on their own.

      We agree with the reviewer. In light of our results we believe it is virtually certain that the secondary mutations characterized herein would be likely to form distinct epistatic interactions with mutations that are only mildly destabilizing. Indeed, this insight reflects one of the key takeaway messages from this work- stability-mediated epistasis is difficult to generalize because it should depend on the extent to which each mutation changes the stability (ΔΔG) as well as initial stability of the WT/ reference sequence (ΔG, see Figure 7). Frankly, we are not so sure we would have pieced this together as clearly had we not had the fortune (or misfortune?) of including such a destructive mutation like W107A as a point of reference.

      Additionally, the study draws general conclusions from the characterization of only two mutations, W107A and V276T. At this point, it is hard to know if other mutations that perturb insertion or tertiary folding would behave similarly. This should be emphasized in the text.

      We agree. Our findings suggest different mutations may not behave similarly, which we believe is a key finding of this work. We have emphasized this point in the Discussion section of the revised manuscript as follows:

      “These findings suggest the folding-mediated epistasis is likely to vary among different classes of destabilizing mutations in a manner that should also depend on folding efficiency and/ or the mechanism(s) of misfolding in the cell.”

      Some statistical aspects of the study could be improved:

      (1) It would be nice to see the level of reproducibility of the biological replicates in a plot, such as scatter or similar, with correlation values that give a sense of the noise level of the measurements. This should be done before filtering out the inconsistent data.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and will include scatters for each genetic background like the one shown above in Figure S3 of the revised version of the manuscript.

      (2) The statements "Variants bearing mutations within the C- terminal region (ICL3-TMD6-ECL3-TMD7) fare consistently worse in the V276T background relative to WT (Fig. 4 B & E)." and "In contrast, mutations that are 210 better tolerated in the context of W107A mGnRHR are located 211 throughout the structure but are particularly abundant among residues 212 in the middle of the primary structure that form TMD4, ICL2, and ECL2 213 (Fig. 4 C & F)." are both hard to judge. Inspecting Figures 4B and C does not immediately show these trends, and importantly, a solid statistical test is missing here. In Figures 4E and F the locations of the different loops and TMs are not indicated on the structure, making these statements hard to judge.

      We apologize for this oversight and thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We utilized paired Wilcoxon-Signed Rank Tests to evaluate the statistical significance of these observations and modified the description of these findings in the revised version of the results section as follows:

      “Variants bearing mutations within the C-terminal regions including ICL3, TMD6, and TMD7 fare consistently worse in the V276T background relative to WT (paired Wilcoxon-Signed Rank Test p-values of 0.0001, 0.02, and 0.005, respectively) (Fig. 4 B & E). Given that V276T perturbs the cotranslational membrane integration of TMD6 (Fig. S1, Table S1), this directional bias potentially suggests that the apparent interactions between these mutations manifest during the late stages of cotranslational folding. In contrast, mutations that are better tolerated in the context of W107A mGnRHR are located throughout the structure but are particularly abundant among residues in the middle of the primary structure that form ICL2, TMD4, and ECL2 (paired Wilcoxon-Signed Rank Test p-values of 0.0005, 0.0001, and 0.004, respectively) (Fig. 4 C & F).”

      (3) The following statement lacks a statistical test: "Notably, these 98 variants are enriched with TMD variants (65% TMD) relative to the overall set of 251 variants (45% TMD)." Is this enrichment significant? Further in the same paragraph, the claim that "In contrast to the sparse epistasis that is generally observed between mutations within soluble proteins, these findings suggest a relatively large proportion of random mutations form epistatic interactions in the context of unstable mGnRHR variants". Needs to be backed by relevant data and statistics, or at least a reference.

      We thank the reviewer for this reasonable suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we included the results of a paired Wilcoxon-Signed Rank Test that confirms the statistical significance of this observation and modified the Results section to reflect this as follows:

      “Notably, these 98 variants are enriched with TMD variants (65% TMD) relative to the overall set of 251 variants (45% TMD, Fisher’s Exact Test p = 0.0019). These findings suggest random mutations form epistatic interactions in the context of unstable mGnRHR variants in a manner that depends on the specific folding defect (V276T vs. W107A) and topological context.”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the Authors):

      As far as this reviewer is aware, the effect of the V267T variant on MP insertion has not been measured directly; its position corresponds to T277 in TMD6 of human GnRHR that has been measured for TM insertion, but given the clear lack of conservation (threonine vs valine) the mutation in TM6 could potentially have a different impact on the mouse homologue. Please clarify what the predicted delta TM for insertion is between human and mouse GnRHR is? Moreover, I would argue that single TM insertion by tethering to Lep is insufficient to understand MP insertion/folding, as neighbouring TM helices could help to drive TM6 insertion. Has ER microsome experiments for mouse GnRHR also been carried out in the context of neighbouring helices?

      We included measurements (and predictions) of the impact of the V276T substitution on the translocon-mediated membrane integration of the mouse TMD6 in the context of a chimeric Lep protein (see Fig. S1 & Table S1). Our results reveal that this substitution decreases the efficiency of TMD6 membrane integration by ~10%. Though imperfect, this prevailing biochemical assay remains popular for a variety of theoretical and technical reasons. Importantly, extensive experimental testing of this system has shown that these measurements report apparent equilibrium constants that are well-described by two-state equilibrium partitioning models (see DOIs 10.1038/nature03216 and 10.1038/nature06387). This observation provides a reasonable rationale to interpret these measurements using energetic models as we have in this work (see Table S1). From a technical perspective, the Lep system is also advantageous due to the fact that this protein is generally well expressed in the context of in vitro translation systems containing native membranes, which generally ensures a consistent signal to noise and dynamic range for membrane integration measurements. Nevertheless, the reviewers are correct that membrane integration efficiencies are likely distinct in the context of the native mGnRHR protein. For these reasons, we attempted to develop a glycosylation-based topology reporter prior to the posting and submission of this manuscript. However, all GnRHR reporters we tested were poorly expressed in vitro and the resulting 35S-labeled proteins only generated faint smears on our phosphorimaging screens that could not be interpreted. For these reasons, we chose to rely the Lep measurements for these investigations.

      The lack of a more relevant topological reporter is one of many challenges we faced in our investigations of this unstable, poorly behaved protein. We share the reviewer’s frustrations concerning the speculative aspects of this work. Nevertheless, there is increasing appreciation for the fact that our perspectives on protein biophysics have been skewed by our continuing choice to focus on the relatively small set of model proteins that are compatible with our favored methodologies (doi: 10.1016/j.tibs.2013.05.001). We humbly suggest this work represents an example of how we can gain a deeper understanding of the limits of biochemical systems when we instead choose to study the unsavory bits of cellular proteomes. But this choice requires a willingness to make some reasonable assumptions and to lean on energetic/ structural modeling from time to time. Despite this limitation, we believe there is still tremendous value in this compromise.

      What is the experimental evidence the W107A variant affects the protein structure? Has its melting temperature with and without inverse agonist binding for WT vs the W107A variant been measured, for example? Even heat-FSEC of detergent-solubilised membranes would be informative to know how unstable the W107A variant is. If is very unstable in detergent, then it could be that recovery mutants are going to be unlikely as you are already starting with a poor construct showing poor folding/localisation.

      We again understand the rationale for this concern, but do not believe that thermal melting measurements are likely to report the same sorts of conformational transitions involved in cellular misfolding. Heating up a protein to the point in which membranes (or micelles) are disrupted and the proteins begin to form insoluble aggregates is a distinct physical process from those that occur during co- and post-translational folding within intact ER membranes at physiological temperatures (discussed further in the Response to the Reviews). Indeed, as the reviewer points out below, there seems to be little evidence that secretion is linked to thermal stability or various other metrics that others have attempted to optimize for the sake of purification and/ or structural characterization. Thus, we believe it would be just as speculative to suggest thermal aggregation represents a relevant metric for the propensity of membrane proteins to fold in the cell. The physical interpretation of membrane protein misfolding reaction remains contentious in our field due to the key fact that the denatured states of helical membrane proteins remain highly structured in a manner that is hard to generalize beyond the fact that the denatured states retain α-helical secondary structure (doi: 10.1146/annurev-biophys-051013-022926). This is in stark contrast to soluble proteins, where random coil reference states have proven to be generally useful for energetic interpretations of protein stability. For reference, our lab is currently working to leverage epistatic measurements like this to map the prevailing physiological denatured states of an integral membrane protein. Our current findings suggest that non-native electrostatic interactions form in the context of misfolded states. We hope that more information on the structural aspects of these states will help us to develop and interpret meaningful folding measurements within the membrane.

      For reference, even in cases when quantitative folding measurements can be achieved, their relevance remains actively debated. As a point of reference, the corresponding author of this work previously worked on the stability and misfolding of another human α-helical membrane protein (PMP22). Like GnRHR, PMP22 is prone to misfolding in the secretory pathway and is associated with dozens of pathogenic mutations that cause protein misfolding. To understand how the thermodynamic stability of this protein is linked to secretion, the corresponding author purified PMP22, reconstituted it into n-Dodecyl-phosphocholine (DPC) micelles, and measured its resistance to denaturation by an anionic denaturing detergent (Lauryl Sarcosine, LS). The results were initially perplexing due to the fact that equilibrium unfolding curves manifested as an exponential decay (rather than a sigmoid) and relaxation kinetics appeared to be dominated by the rate constant for unfolding (doi: 10.1021/bi301635f). Unfortunately, these data could not be fit with existing folding models due to the lack of a folded protein baseline and the absence of a folding arm in the chevron plot. We eventually found that a full sigmoidal unfolding transition and refolding kinetics could be measured upon addition of 15% (v/v) glycerol. Our measurements revealed that the free energy of unfolding in DPC micelles was 0 kcal/ mol (without glycerol). This shocking lack of WT stability made it impossible to directly measure the effects of destabilizing mutations that enhance misfolding- you can’t measure the unfolding of a protein that is already unfolded. We ultimately had to instead infer the energetic effects of such mutations from the thermodynamic coupling between cofactor binding and folding (doi: 10.1021/jacs.5b03743). Finally, after demonstrating the resulting ΔΔGs correlated with both cellular trafficking and disease phenotype, we still faced justified scrutiny about the relevance of these measurements due to the fact that they were carried out in micelles. For these reasons, we do not feel that additional biophysical measurements will add much to this work until more is understood about the nature of misfolding reactions in the membrane and how to effectively recapitulate it in vitro. We also note that PMP22 is secreted with 20% efficiency in mammalian cell lines, which is 20-fold more efficient than human GnRHR under similar conditions (doi: 10.1016/j.celrep.2021.110046). Thus, we suspect equilibrium unfolding measurements are likely out of reach using previously described measurements.

      Our greatest evidence suggesting W107A destabilizes the protein has to do with the fact that it deletes a highly conserved structural contact and that this structural modification kills its secretion. The fact that this mutation clearly reduces the escape of GnRHR from ER quality control is a classic indicator of misfolding that represents the cell’s way of telling us that the mutation compromises the folding of the nascent protein in some way or another. Precisely how this mutation remodels the nascent conformational ensemble of nascent GnRHR and how this relates to the free energy difference between the native and non-native portions of its conformational ensemble under cellular conditions is a much more challenging question that lies beyond the scope of this investigation (and likely beyond the scope of what’s currently possible). Indeed, there is an entire field dedicated to understanding such. Nevertheless, the difference in the epistatic interactions formed by W107A and V276T is at the very least consistent with our speculative interpretation that these two mutations vary in their misfolding mechanism and/ or in the extent to which they destabilize the protein. For these reasons, we feel the main conclusions of this manuscript are well-justified.

      Please clarify if the protein is glycosylated or not and, if it is, how would this requirement affect the conclusions of your analysis?

      As we noted in the Response to the Reviewers, which also constitutes a published portion of the final manuscript, this protein is indeed glycosylated. We were well aware of this aspect of the protein since inception of this project and do not think this changes our interpretation at all. Most membrane proteins are glycosylated, and several groups have demonstrated in various ways that the secretion efficiency of glycoproteins is proportional to certain stability metrics for secreted soluble proteins and membrane proteins alike. Generally, mutations that enhance misfolding do not change the propensity of the nascent chain to undergo N-linked glycosylation, which occurs during translation before protein synthesis and/ or folding is complete. Misfolded proteins typically carry lower weight glycans, which reflects their failure to advance from the ER to the Golgi, where N-linked glycans are modified and O-linked glycans are added. From our perspective, glycosyl modifications just ensure that nascent proteins are engaged by calnexin and other lectin chaperones involved in QC. It does not decouple folding from secretion efficiency. In the case of PMP22 (described above), we found that removal of its glycosylation site allows the nascent protein to bypass the lectin chaperones in a manner that enhances its plasma membrane expression eight-fold (doi: 10.1016/j.jbc.2021.100719). Similar to WT, the expression of several misfolded PMP22 variants also significantly increases upon removal of the glycosylation site. Nevertheless, their expression is still significantly lower than the un-glycosylated WT protein, and the expression patterns of the mutants relative to WT was quite similar across this panel of un-glycosylated proteins. Thus, while glycosylation certainly impacts secretion, it does not change its dependence on folding efficiency within the ER. There are many layers of partially redundant QC within the ER, and it seems that folding imposes a key bottleneck to secretion regardless of which QC proteins are involved. For these reasons, we do not think glycosylation (or other PTMs) should factor into our interpretation of these results.

      One caveat with the study is that there is a poor understanding of the factors that decide if the protein should be trafficked to the PM or not. Even secretory proteins not going through the calnexin/reticulum cycle (as they have no N-linked glycans), might still get stuck in the ER, despite the fact they are functional. Could this be a technical issue of heterologous expression overloading the Sec system?

      While we agree that there is much to be learned about this topic, we disagree with the notion that our understanding of folding and secretion is insufficient to generally interpret the molecular basis of the observed trends. In collaboration with various other groups, the corresponding author of this paper has shown for several other proteins that the stability of the native topology and the native tertiary structure can constrain secretion efficiency (see dois: 10.1021/jacs.8b08243, 10.1021/jacs.5b03743, and 10.1016/j.jbc.2021.100423). Moreover, the Balch and Kelly groups demonstrated many years ago that relatively simple models for the coupling between folding and chaperone binding can recapitulate the observed effects of mutations on the secretion efficiency of various proteins (doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2007.10.025). Given a wide body of prevailing knowledge in this area, we believe it is entirely reasonable to assume that the conformational effects of these mutation have a dominant effect on plasma membrane expression.

      Whether or not some of the proteins retained in the ER are folded and/ or functional is an interesting question, but is outside the scope of this work. Various lines of evidence concerning approaches to rescue misfolded membrane proteins suggest many of these variants are likely to retain residual function once they escape the ER, which may suggest there are pockets of foldable/ folded proteins within the ER. But it seems generally clear that the efficiency of folding in the ER bottlenecks secretion regardless of whether or not the ER contains some fraction of folded/ functional protein. We note that it is certainly possible, if not likely, that secretion efficiency is likely to be higher at lower expression levels (doi: 10.1074/jbc.AC120.014940). However, the mutational scanning platform used in this work was designed such that all variants are expressed from an identical promoter at the same location within the genome. Thus, for the purposes of these investigations, we believe it is entirely fair to draw “apples-to-apples” comparisons of their relative effects on plasma membrane expression.

      Please see Francis Arnold's paper on this point and their mutagenesis library of the channelrhodopsin (https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1700269114), which further found that 20% of mutations improved WT trafficking. Some general comparisons to this paper might be informative.

      We agree that it may be interesting to compare the results from this paper to those in our own. Indeed, we find that 20% of the point mutations characterized herein also enhance the expression of WT mGnRHR, as mentioned in the Results section. However, we think it might be a bit premature to suggest this is a more general trend in light of the fact that the channelrhodopsins engineered in those studies were not of eukaryotic origin and have likely resulted from distinct evolutionary constraints. We ultimately decided against adding more on this to our already lengthy discussion in order to maintain focus on the mechanisms of epistasis.

      Chris Tate and others have shown that there is a high frequency of finding stabilising point mutations in GPCRs and this is the premise of the StAR technology used to thermostabilise GPCRs in the presence of different ligands, i.e. agonist vs inverse agonists. As far as I am aware, there is a poor correlation between expression levels and thermostability (measured by ligand binding to detergent-solubilised membranes). As such, it is possible that some of the mutants might be more stable than WT even though they have lower levels of PME.

      We believe the disconnect between thermostability and expression precisely speaks to our main point about the suitability of current membrane protein folding assays for the questions we address herein. The degradative activity of ER quality control has not necessarily selected for proteins that are resistant to thermal degradation and/ or are suitable for macromolecular crystallography. For this reason, it is often not so difficult to engineer proteins with enhanced thermal stability. We do not believe this disconnect signals that quality control is insensitive to protein folding and stability, but rather that it is more likely to recognize conformational defects that are distinct from those involved in thermal degradation and/ or aggregation. Indeed, recent work from the Fluman group, which builds on a wider body of previous observations, has shown that the exposure of polar groups within the membrane is a key factor that recruits degradation machinery (doi: 0.1101/2023.12.12.571171). It is hard to imagine that these sorts of conformational defects are the same as those involved in thermal aggregation.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) I believe that by focusing more on the epistasis with V276T, and less on W107A, the paper could be strengthened significantly.

      We appreciate this sentiment. But we believe the comparison of these two mutants really drive home the point that destabilizing mutations are not equivalent with respect to the epistatic interactions they form.

      (2) In the abstract - please define the term epistasis in a simple way, to make it accessible to a general audience. For example - negative epistasis means that... this should be explicitly explained.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. To meet eLife formatting, we had to cut down the abstract significantly. We simplified this as best we could in the following statement:

      “Though protein stability is known to shape evolution, it is unclear how cotranslational folding constraints modulate the synergistic, epistatic interactions between mutations.”

      We also define positive and negative epistasis in the results section as follows:

      “Positive Ɛ values denote double mutants that have greater PME than would be expected based on the effects of single mutants. Negative Ɛ values denote double mutants that have lower PME than would be expected based on the effects of single mutants. Pairs of mutations with Ɛ values near zero have additive effects on PME.”

      (3) The title is quite complex and might deter readers from outside the protein evolution field. Consider simplifying it.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have simplified the title to the following:

      “Divergent Folding-Mediated Epistasis Among Unstable Membrane Protein Variants”

      (4) The paper could benefit from a simple figure explaining the different stages of membrane protein folding (stages 1+2) to make it more accessible to readers from outside the membrane protein field.

      This is a great suggestion. We incorporated a new schematic in the revised manuscript that outlines the nature of these processes (see Fig. 1A in the revised manuscript).

      (5) For the FACS-Seq experiment - it was not clear to me if and when all cells are pulled together. For example - are the 3 libraries mixed together already at the point of transfection, or are the transfected cells pulled together at any point before sorting? This could have some implications on batch effects and should, therefore, be explicitly mentioned in the main text.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We modified the description of the DNA library assembly to emphasize that the mutations were generated in the context of three mixed plasmid pools, which were then transfected into the cells and sorted independently:

      “We then generated a mixed array of mutagenic oligonucleotides that collectively encode this series of substitutions (Table S3) and used nicking mutagenesis to introduce these mutations into the V276T, W107A, and WT mGnRHR cDNAs (Medina-Cucurella et al., 2019), which produced three mixed plasmid pools.”

      (6) The following description in the text is quite confusing. It would be better to simplify it considerably or remove it: "scores (Ɛ) were then determined by taking the log of the double mutant fitness value divided by the difference between the single mutant fitness values (see Methods)."

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable feedback and have simplified the text as follows:

      “To compare epistatic trends in these libraries, we calculated epistasis scores (Ɛ) for the interactions that these 251 mutations form with V276T and W107A by comparing their relative effects on PME of the WT, V276T, and W107A variants using a previously described epistasis model (product model, see Methods) (Olson et al. 2014).”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We would like to thank both Editors and reviewers for their valuable time, careful reading, and constructive comments. The comments have been highly valuable and useful for improving the quality of our study, as well as important in guiding the direction of our present and future research. In the revised manuscript, we have incorporated the necessary changes including additional experimental data as suggested; please find our detailed pointby-point response to the reviewer’s comments and the changes we have made in the manuscript as follows.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this work, the authors have explored how treating C. albicans fungal cells with EDTA affects their growth and virulence potential. They then explore the use of EDTA-treated yeast as a whole-cell vaccine in a mouse model of systemic infection. In general, the results of the paper are unsurprising. Treating yeast cells with EDTA affects their growth and the addition of metals rescues the phenotype. Because of the significant growth defects of the cells, they don't infect mice and you see reduced virulence. Injection with these cells effectively immunises the mice, in the same way that heatkilled yeast cells would. The data is fairly sound and mostly well-presented, and the paper is easy to follow. However, I feel the data is an incremental advance at best, and the immune analysis in the paper is very basic and descriptive.

      Strengths:

      Detailed analysis of EDTA-treated yeast cells

      Weaknesses:

      • Basic immune data with little advance in knowledge.

      • No comparison between their whole-cell vaccine and others tried in the field.

      • The data is largely unsurprising and not novel.

      Reply: Thank you so much for appreciating our effort to generate a whole cell anti-fungal vaccine by treating C. albicans cells with EDTA. Also, we appreciate your comment that the manuscript is sound and well-presented. However, we are afraid that the respected reviewer assumed the CAET cells as dead cells while they only divide relatively slower than the untreated cells. In the revised manuscript, we have presented additional evidence to show that CAET are live cells (Supp. Figs 2) and based on the new data, we expect a positive change in the reviewer’s opinion. Since CAET is a live strain, the data presented here is novel.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Invasive fungal infections are very difficult to treat with limited drug options. With the increasing concern of drug resistance, developing an antifungal vaccine is a high priority. In this study, the authors studied the metal metabolism in Candida albicans by testing some chelators, including EDTA, to block the metal acquisition and metabolism by the fungus. Interestingly, they found EDTAtreated yeast cells grew poorly in vitro and non-pathogenic in vivo in a murine model. Mice immunized by EDTA-treated Candida (CAET) were protected against challenge with wild-type Candida cells. RNA-Seq analysis to survey the gene expression profile in response to EDTA treatment in vitro revealed upregulation of genes in metal homeostasis and downregulation of ribosome biogenesis. They also revealed an induction of both pro- and anti-inflammatory cytokines involved in Th1, Th2 and Th17 host immune response in response to CAET immunization. Overall, this is an interesting study with translational potential.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of the report is that the authors identified a potential whole-cell live vaccine strain that can provide full protection against candidiasis. Abundant data both on in vitro phenotype, gene expression profile, and host immune response have been presented.

      Weaknesses:

      A weakness is that the immune mechanism of CAET-mediated host protection remains unclear. The immune data is somewhat confusing. The authors only checked cytokines and chemokines in blood. The immune response in infected tissues and antibody response may be investigated.

      Reply: Thank you very much for appreciating our work and finding our strain to be a live whole-cell anti-fungal vaccine strain with translational potential. Since the current study focused on the identification and detailed characterizations of a non-genetically modified live-attenuated strain and determination of its safety and efficacy as a potential vaccine candidate in the preclinical model, we have excluded the possible immune mechanisms involving CAET. In a separate study, we are currently investigating both cellular and molecular mechanisms that provide protective immunity in CAET-vaccinated mice.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors are trying to find a vaccine solution for invasive candidiasis.

      Strengths:

      The testing of the antifungal activity of EDTA on Candida is not new as many other papers have examined this effect. The novelty here is the use of this EDTA-treated strain as a vaccine to protect against a secondary challenge with wild-type Candida.

      Weaknesses:

      However, data presented in Figure 5 and Figure 6 are not convincing and need further experimental controls and analysis as the authors do not show a time-dependent effect on the CFU of their vaccine formulation. The methodology used is also an issue. As it stands, the impact is minor.

      Reply: Thank you so much for appreciating our efforts to develop a novel vaccine against fungal infections. We are extremely sorry for the lack of clarity in our writing related to Figs. 5 and 6, we have now modified the text and hope that the respected reviewer will find these convincing.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Although the reviewers recognize the importance of the manuscript, they would like to see: 1) comparisons between their whole-cell vaccine and others tried in the field, 2) an investigation of the immune response in infected tissues and antibody response, and 3) more controls in Figures 5 and 6, and a time-dependent effect on the colony-forming units of their vaccine formulation. Please, address the questions and submit a revised version together with a rebuttal letter addressing point-by-point raised by each reviewer.

      Reply: (1) We are afraid that a comparative study of a live and heat-killed cell vaccines will mislead the information presented here. This is the only non-genetically modified antifungal vaccine candidate therefore a comparison with a dead strain at present is unwarranted. We have now added supporting data to confirm that, the survivability of C. albicans cells was unaffected at 6 hr of EDTA treatment (CAET, Supp. Fig. S2). (2) Since the current study focused on the identification and a detailed characterization of a non-genetically modified live attenuated strain and its safety and efficacy as a potential vaccine candidate in the preclinical model, we have excluded the possible immune mechanisms involving CAET. However, in a separate study, we are currently investigating both cellular and molecular mechanisms that provide protective immunity in CAET-vaccinated mice. (3) The results of Figs 5 and 6 were misinterpreted by the respected reviewer, please see the explanation below.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Some specific comments/suggestions for the authors: (1) What was the viability of the yeast after EDTA treatment? Is the delayed growth response because many cells died and it takes a while for remaining viable cells to catch up? This is important to know because it may mean the dose given to mice is substantially different and that should be accounted for. Some PI staining of the cells after treatment would help.

      Reply: The growth curve assays (Fig. 1A and 1E) were initiated with O.D.600nm=0.5 of each cultures (~ 107 cells/mL) and the analyses suggested that the EDTA-treated C. albicans cells grew slower than the untreated cells. Fig. 1B and 1F further demonstrated that EDTA has minimal effect on the survival of the strain up to 8 hrs post-exposure. The proportion of the number of cells increased without and with metal chelators almost remained the same for this duration (0 – 8 hrs). Therefore, for subsequent analyses, 6 hr treatment was selected and such treated cells were considered as CAET, which were actively dividing live cells, albeit slower than untreated cells. As suggested and to strengthen our finding, a time dependent SYTOX Green and Propidium iodide staining of C. albicans cells without and with EDTA treatment was carried out and analysed by flow cytometry and microscopy, respectively. Both analyses revealed that the percentage of dead cells up to 12 hrs of without and with EDTA treatment remained the same. The new data has now been added in the revised version of the manuscript as Supplementary figure 2.

      Author response image 1.

      (2) In line with the above, what was the viability of the CAET cells after 3h in media? In the macrophage in vitro experiments, how do you know the reduced viability of the CAET cells is macrophage-specific? Did you run a control of CAET cells in media on their own to determine how CFU changed in macrophage-free conditions? Is the proliferation rates of untreated and CAET cells different? That would affect CFSE labelling and results. These experiments would work better with a GFP-expressing C. albicans strain, which is widely available. In the images in Figure 4c, it looks like there are more hyphae in CAET than untreated - was hyphal induction checked/measured? That's important to know because more hyphae usually means more clumping and this can affect CFU counts (giving the impression of less CFU when actually there is more). Because of all the issues above, I'm not fully convinced by the uptake/killing data.

      Reply: As explained in response 1, we used actively dividing WT and CAET cells, and equal number of these cells were CFSE labelled. As can be seen in Fig.4A, the rate of phagocytosis was the same in 1 hr of pre-culture, but in the subsequent time points the double-positive cells were reduced in the case of CAET cells and that is due to fungal killing by macrophages. Fungal cells were released from the macrophages by warm water treatment and CFU was determined. Fig. 4B suggested that at 1hr of co-culture, the CFU of both fungal cells (WT and CAET) were the same and the fungal clearance was observed at later time points. Thus, the reduced viability of CAET cells was macrophagespecific. EDTA has minimal effect on hyphal transition without and with the presence of serum and the new data has now been provided in the revised version (Supplementary Fig. 3).

      Author response image 2.

      (3) Pooled data should be shown for all animal experiments.

      Reply: Thank you for the suggestion, wherever it was meaningful pooled data for the animal experiments have now been provided.

      (4) Immune cell counts/analysis in the kidney and bone marrow would be hugely helpful and more relevant to understanding immune responses following immunisation/infection. I think a more interesting analysis for the authors to consider would be to immunise with heat-killed yeast vs EDTAtreated yeast and see if there is a qualitative difference or better protection, i.e. is the EDTA-treated whole-cell vaccine superior to the heat-killed version? That is a better question to address. As it stands, the data in the paper is not surprising.

      Reply: The studies on cellular and molecular mechanisms underlying protective immunity in CAETvaccinated mice are under progress in a separate study. This study mostly focused on the identification and detailed characterization of a non-genetically modified live-attenuated strain and its safety and efficacy as a potential vaccine candidate in a preclinical model. We are afraid that a comparison of a live cell (CAET) with a dead cell (heat-killed) will dilute the content of the manuscript and will not be meaningful. It is well accepted that the heat-killed C. albicans strain only provides partial short-lived protection to re-challenge (Refs-PMIDs: 12146759, and 9916097), thus, it does not warrant any comparison with CAET.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Overall, this is a highly interesting study. I have the following specific comments for clarification.

      (1) In the introduction, the authors mentioned other anti-candida vaccines that are mostly effective against Candida infection by inducing neutralizing antibodies. However, in their CAET vaccine candidate, they only checked the cellular immunity in blood and found a balanced immune response (both pro- and anti-inflammatory responses are induced). How about the antibody production in these mice? It is a bit surprising that both untreated Candida infection and CAET Candida infection produced similar immune activation based on Figure 6, yet the CAET immunization provides protection. Some innate cell recruitment is higher in untreated Ca infection than the CAET infected mice (Figure 5F). The overall results on immune response characterization did not seem to explain why the CAET infection led to host protection while untreated Ca infection cannot. Characterizing infected tissue immune cell differentiation and cytokine production may offer some additional insights.

      Reply: We agree with you that in this manuscript we have not provided any mechanistic study on the protective immunity in CAET-vaccinated mice. This will be demonstrated in a subsequent study.

      (2) In Figure 5, some critical data seem to be missing in panels B and C. The CFU and histopathological images for CAET-treated mice challenged by Ca should also be shown there for comparison. Although they did show some data in Figure 5E and Figure S4, it is necessary to have that data in 5B and 5C from the same experiment. Figure S4 is a very busy figure and the images are quite small. It may be necessary to use arrows to point out what information authors want to emphasize.

      Reply: Fig 5 B and 5C showed the data for mice that succumbed to infection. Since the other mice (saline control groups, CAET infected, CAET vaccinated, and re-challenged groups) survived, they were not sacrificed; therefore, the CFU data was not collected. In addition, we wanted to see the longevity of these survived mice and after 1 year of observations, they were handed over to the animal house for clearance as per the institutional guidelines. However, Figure 5E and Figure S4 (now Fig. S6) included all the mice groups as they were sacrificed at various time points irrespective of humane end points. As suggested FigS6 has now been modified and fungal cells were denoted by yellow arrows.

      (3) EDTA-treated yeast cells showed poor growth but also had thicker cell walls with high chitin, glucan, and mannan levels. What leads to its clearance in vivo remains unclear, as usually, cells with thick cell wall structures and low metabolism are more resistant to stress, e.g., dormant cells. Macrophages were shown to contribute to CAET killing in a phagocytosis assay (Figure 4). Checking cytokines produced by macrophages during co-incubation may offer some insights. In all, additional discussion on what caused in vivo clearance would be helpful.

      Reply: Mechanistic study on the protective immune responses of CAET will be demonstrated in a separate study. As suggested, the discussion section now contains additional information emphasising the in vivo clearance of CAET cells in the 3rd paragraph of discussion section.

      (4) Long paragraphs in the discussion section could be divided into a bigger number of shorter paragraphs.

      Reply: Thank you for the suggestion, it has now been modified in the revised version (7 short paragraphs). To make it more comprehensive, some of the content has been removed.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) It is unclear how many cells were treated with 250 micromolar of EDTA for 6 hours before preparing the inoculum. It seems that only the OD was measured before adding EDTA. This is not a very rigorous and reproducible method.

      Reply: In this manuscript, we have repeatedly used the same protocol to generate CAET cells for various analyses. The O.D.600nm= 0.5 culture is equivalent to 107 C. albicans cells per mL and this information has now been added in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Upon treatment with 250 micromolar of EDTA, cells were harvested and counted to prepare the inoculum (5x10e5) for injecting it in mice. However, it appears that CFU of the inoculum was not done. Based on data shown in Fig. 1B, 250 micromolar of EDTA does inhibit Candida cell replication. Thus, the authors may have counted dead cells and, thus, injected dead cells together with live cells for the CAET inoculum. Thus, mice receiving this inoculum may have been infected (and vaccinated) with a lower number of live Candida cells.

      Reply: Please see a similar response to reviewer #1. EDTA has minimal effect on the survival of C. albicans cells at 6 hr (also see supp. Fig. S2). We have already mentioned the CFU analysis of untreated and CAET cells in the methodology section related to inoculum preparation.

      (3) It is unclear if 6 hours of treatment with 250 micromolar of EDTA is enough to induce a block of Candida cell replication. In Figure 1B, the authors treated for 24h. The authors are encouraged to wash the cells after 6 hours of treatment and see if their cell division will recover upon removal of EDTA.

      Reply: Thank you for the suggestion. At 6 hr treatment, survivability of C. albicans cells was unaffected upon EDTA exposure. PI and SYTOX GREEN staining confirmed it (Supp. Fig. 2). Additionally, as suggested a rescue experiment was carried out by exogenous addition of divalent metals after 6 hr EDTA treatment and growth/CFU analyses were followed thereafter. A modified Fig. 1 A and B with new data has been provided.

      (4) The data shown in Figure 5A is extremely exciting. However, the number of mice in each group (n=6) is too low. Normally, 10 mice per group are used for virulence studies unless the authors provide a power analysis that 6 mice per group will be sufficient. Also, CFU data were only provided for Ca and saline-Ca groups (Fig. 5B) and not for the other groups. CFU data should be provided for all mice.

      Reply: Thank you for the suggestion and a statistical analysis of Fig. 5A was provided in the revised version. The rationale behind not including all mice groups in Fig. 5B is already explained in a response to reviewer #2.

      (5) It is unclear how the authors differentiate between CFU arising from CAET or from WT Candida.

      Reply: Since the Fig 5 E demonstrated that no CAET cells were detected in the kidney beyond 10 days of inoculation, in the re-challenged mice group (1CAET 2 Ca), the fungal cells those detected in the 3rd and 7th days were from the later inoculated cells (brown colour).

      (6) Figure 5E: it is unclear if a 1 saline-2 saline (Figure legend) or if 1 saline-2 Ca (text) group was included. If the latter, where are the CFU? It is impossible that 1 saline-2 Ca mice have no CFU.

      Reply: Thank you so much for pointing this out. The legend has now been modified that include 1saline-2saline and 1CAET-2Ca.

      (7) It seems that CFU is significantly present in the kidney in the 1 CAET - 2 Ca group at day 7 but not at day 3. How is this possible? This is an extremely invasive model of infection, and the authors are challenging intravenously 500,000 live Candida cells. If by the 3rd day, the authors detect no CFU, then how is it possible that CFUs are arising on day 7?

      Reply: We do detect fungal cells on 3rd day in 1CAET 2 WT mice group (~2000 cells), albeit much lower than in 7 days (~11200 cells). A Log10 scale graph has now been provided for better representation.

      (8) Most importantly, if the authors are not detecting CFU at day 3, then earlier time points (e.g. day 2, day 1, or even 12 hours post-challenge) must be analyzed. The authors should show that CFU from the organs is decreasing in a time-dependent manner. Also, all CFU should be shown as Log10.

      Reply: please see the previous response.

      (9) Fig. 6: because it is unclear if the mice were challenged with the same inoculum of live Candida cells (untreated and treated with EDTA), the different cytokine profiles between the two groups could be simply due to the different inoculum sizes and not to the effect of EDTA on Ca.

      Reply: please see the previous response as given also for Reviewer 1.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This work presents valuable information about the specificity and promiscuity of toxic effector and immunity protein pairs. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is currently incomplete, as there is concern about the methodology used to analyze protein interactions, which did not take potential differences in expression levels, protein folding, and/or transient interaction into account. Other methods to measure the strength of interactions and structural predictions would improve the study. The work will be of interest to microbiologists and biochemists working with toxin-antitoxin and effector-immunity proteins.

      We thank the reviewers for considering this manuscript. We agree that this manuscript provides a valuable and cross-discipline introduction to new EI pair protein families where we focus on the EI pair’s flexibility and impacts on community structure. As such, we believe we have provided a solid foundation for future studies to examine non-cognate interactions and their possible effects on microbial communities. This, by definition, leaves some areas “incomplete” and, therefore, open for further investigations. While the methods we show do consider potential differences in binding assays, we have more explicitly addressed how “expression, protein folding, and/or transient binding” may play into this expanded EI pair model. We have also tempered the discussion of the proposed model, while also clearly highlighting other published evidence of non-cognate binding interactions between effector and immunity proteins. We have responded to the reviewers’ public comments (italicized below). 

      In this revised manuscript, we have updated the main text, particularly the Discussion section, to include more careful language, explain past research better, and add new references to works showing non-cognate immunity proteins protecting against effectors in other systems. We have also updated the supplemental files with more analyses; the relevant procedures are in the Materials and Methods.

      Public Reviews:

      Note: Reviewer 1, who appeared to focus on a subset of the manuscript rather than the whole, based their comments on several inaccuracies, which we discuss below. We found the tone in this reviewer's comments to be, at times, inappropriate, e.g., using "harsh" and "simply too drastic" to imply that common structure-function analyses were outside of the field-standard methods. We also note that the reviewer took a somewhat atypical step in reviewing this manuscript by running and analyzing the potential protein-complex data in AlphaFold2 but did not discuss areas of low confidence within that model that may contradict their conclusions. We are concerned their approach muddled valid scientific criticisms with problematic conclusions.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, Knecht, Sirias et al describe toxin-immunity pair from Proteus mirabilis. Their observations suggest that the immunity protein could protect against non-cognate effectors from the same family. They analyze these proteins by dissecting them into domains and constructing chimeras which leads them to the conclusion that the immunity can be promiscuous and that the binding of immunity is insufficient for protective activity.

      Strengths:<br />  The manuscript is well written and the data are very well presented and could be potentially interesting. The phylogenetic analysis is well done, and provides some general insights.

      Weaknesses:<br /> (1) Conclusions are mostly supported by harsh deletions and double hybrid assays. The later assays might show binding, but this method is not resolutive enough to report the binding strength. Proteins could still bind, but the binding might be weaker, transient, and out-competed by the target binding.

      The phrasing of structure-function analyses as “harsh” is a bit unusual, as other research groups regularly use deletions and hybrid studies. Given the known caveats to deletion and domain substitutions, we included point-mutation analyses for both the effector and immunity proteins, as found on lines 105 - 113 and 255 - 261 in the current manuscript. These caveats are also why we coupled the in vitro binding analyses with in vivo protection experiments in two distinct experimental systems (E. coli and P. mirabilis). Based on this manuscript’s introductory analysis (where we define and characterize the genes, proteins, interactions, phylogenetics, and incidences in human microbiomes), the next apparent questions are beyond the scope of this study. Future approaches would include analyzing purified proteins from the effector (E) and immunity (I) protein families using biochemical assays, such as X-ray crystallography, circular dichroism spectroscopy, among others. 

      Interestingly, most papers in the EI field do not measure EI protein affinity (Jana et al., 2019, Yadav et al., 2021). Notable exceptions are earlier colicin research (Wallis et al., 1995) and a new T6SS EI paper (Bosch et al., 2023) published as we first submitted this manuscript.

      (2) While the authors have modeled the structure of toxin and immunity, the toxin-immunity complex model is missing. Such a model allows alternative, more realistic interpretation of the presented data. Firstly, the immunity protein is predicted to bind contributing to the surface all over the sequence, except the last two alpha helices (very high confidence model, iPTM>0.8). The N terminus described by the authors contributes one of the toxin-binding surfaces, but this is not the sole binding site. Most importantly, other parts of the immunity protein are predicted to interact closer to the active site (D-E-K residues). Thus, based on the AlphaFold model, the predicted mechanism of immunization remains physically blocking the active site. However, removing the N terminal part, which contributes large interaction surface will directly impact the binding strength. Hence, the toxin-immunity co-folding model suggests that proper binding of immunity, contributed by different parts of the protein, is required to stabilize the toxin-immunity complex and to achieve complete neutralization. Alternative mechanisms of neutralization might not be necessary in this case and are difficult to imagine for a DNase.

      In response to the reviewer’s comment, we again reviewed the RdnE-RdnI AlphaFold2 complex predictions with the most updated version of ColabFold (1.5.2-patch with PDB100 and MMseq2) and have included them at the end of these responses [1].

      However, the literature reports that computational predictions of E-I complexes often do not match experimental structural results (Hespanhol et al., 2022, Bosch et al., 2023). As such, we chose not to include the predicted cognate and non-cognate RdnE-I complexes from ColabFold (which uses AlphaFold2) and have not included this data in the revised manuscript. (It is notable that reviewer 1 found the proposed expanded model and research so interesting as to directly input and examine the AI-predicted RdnE-RdnI protein interactions in AlphaFold2.)

      Discussion of the prevailing toxin-immunity complex model is in the introduction (lines 45-48) and Figure 5E. Further, there are various known mechanisms for neutralizing nucleases and other T6SS effectors, which we briefly state in the discussion (lines 359 - 361). More in-depth, these molecular mechanisms include active-site blocking (Benz et al., 2012), allosteric-site binding (Kleanthous et al., 1999 and Lu et al., 2014), enzymatic neutralization of the target (Ting et al., 2021), and structural disruption of both the active and binding sites (Bosch et al., 2023). Given this diversity of mechanisms, we did not presume to speculate on the as-of-yet unknown mechanism of RdnI protection. We have expanded discussion of these items in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Dissection of a toxin into two domains is also not justified from a structural point of view, it is probably based on initial sequence analyses. The N terminus (actually previously reported as Pone domain in ref 21) is actually not a separate domain, but an integral part of the protein that is encased from both sides by the C terminal part. These parts might indeed evolve faster since they are located further from the active site and the central core of the protein. I am happy to see that the chimeric toxins are active, but regarding the conservation and neutralization, I am not surprised, that the central core of the protein fold is highly conserved. However, "deletion 2" is quite irrelevant - it deletes the central core of the protein, which is simply too drastic to draw any conclusions from such a construct - it will not fold into anything similar to an original protein, if it will fold properly at all.

      The reviewer’s comment highlights why we turned to the chimera proteins to dissect the regions of RdnE (formerly IdrD-CT), as the deletions could result in misfolded proteins. (We initially examined RdnE in the years before the launch of AlphaFold2.) However, the reviewer is incorrect regarding the N-terminus of RdnE. The PoNe domain, while also a subfamily of the PD-(D/E)XK superfamily, forms a distinct clade of effectors from the PD-(D/E)XK domain in RdnE (formally IdrD-CT) as seen in Hespanhol et al., 2022; this is true for other DNase effectors as well. Many studies analyzing effectors within the PD-(D/E)XK superfamily only focus on the PD-(D/E)XK domain, removing just this domain from the context of the whole protein (Hespanhol et al., 2022; Jana et al., 2019). Of note, in RdnE, this region alone (containing the DNA-binding domain) is insufficient for DNase activity (unlike in PoNe). We have clarified this distinction in the results section of the current manuscript, visible in figure 2 .

      (4) Regarding the "promiscuity" there is always a limit to how similar proteins are, hence when cross-neutralization is claimed authors should always provide sequence similarities. This similarity could also be further compared in terms of the predicted interaction surface between toxin and immunity.

      Reviewer 1 points out a fundamental property of protein-protein interactions that has been isolated away from the impacts of such interactions on bacterial community structure. We have provided the whole protein alignments in figure 3 supplemental figure 3, the summary images in Figure 3D, and the protein phylogenetic trees in Figure 3C. We encourage others to consider the protein alignments as percent amino acid sequence similarity is not necessarily a good gauge for protein function and interactions. These data are publicly available on the OSF website associated with this manuscript https://osf.io/scb7z/, and we hope the community explores the data there.

      In consideration of the enthusiasm to deeply dive into the primary research data, we have included the pairwise sequence identities across the entire proteins here: Proteus RdnI vs. Rothia RdnI: 23.6%; Proteus RdnI vs. Prevotella RdnI: 16.3%, Proteus RdnI vs. Pseudomonas RdnI: 14.6%; Rothia RdnI vs. Prevotella RdnI: 22.4%, Rothia RdnI vs. Pseudomonas RdnI: 17.6%; Prevotella RdnI vs. Pseudomonas RdnI: 19.5%. (As stated in response to reviewer 1 comment 2, we did not find it appropriate to make inferences based on AlphaFold2-predicted protein complexes.)

      Overall, it looks more like a regular toxin-immunity couple, where some cross-reactions with homologues are possible, depending on how far the sequences have deviated. Nevertheless, taking all of the above into account, these results do not challenge toxin-immunity specificity dogma.

      In this manuscript, we did not intend to dismiss the E-I specificity model but rather point out its limitations and propose an important expansion of that model that accounts for cross-protection and survival against attacks from other genera. We agree that it is commonly considered that deviations in amino acid sequence over time could result in cross-binding and protection (see lines 364-368). However, the impacts of such cross-binding on community structure, bacterial survival, and strain evolution were rarely addressed in prior literature, with exceptions such as in Zhang et al., 2013 and Bosch et al., 2023 among others. One key insight we propose and show in this manuscript is that cross-binding can be a fitness benefit in mixed communities; therefore, it could be selected for evolutionarily (lines 378-380), even potentially in host microbiomes.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Knecht et al entitled "Non-cognate immunity proteins provide broader defenses against interbacterial effectors in microbial communities" aims at characterizing a new type VI secretion system (T6SS) effector immunity pair using genetic and biochemical studies primarily focused on Proteus mirabilis and metagenomic analysis of human-derived data focused on Rothia and Prevotella sequences. The authors provide evidence that RdnE and RdnI of Proteus constitute an E-I pair and that the effector likely degrades nucleic acids. Further, they provide evidence that expression of non-cognate immunity derived from diverse species can provide protection against RdnE intoxication. Overall, this general line of investigation is underdeveloped in the T6SS field and conceptually appropriate for a broad audience journal. The paper is well-written and, aside from a few cases, well-cited. As detailed below however, there are several aspects of this paper where the evidence provided is somewhat insufficient to support the claims. Further, there are now at least two examples in the literature of non-cognate immunity providing protection against intoxication, one of which is not cited here (Bosch et al PMID 37345922 - the other being Ting et al 2018). In general therefore I think that the motivating concept here in this paper of overturning the predominant model of interbacterial effector-immunity cognate interactions is oversold and should be dialed back.

      We agree that analyses focusing on flexible non-cognate interactions and protection are underdeveloped within the T6SS field and are not fully explored within a community structure. These ideas are rapidly growing in the field, as evidenced by the references provided by the reviewer. As stated earlier, we did not intend to overturn the prevailing model but rather have proposed an expanded model that accounts for protection against attacks from foreign genera.

      Strengths:

      One of the major strengths of this paper is the combination of diverse techniques including competition assays, biochemistry, and metagenomics surveys. The metagenomic analysis in particular has great potential for understanding T6SS biology in natural communities. Finally, it is clear that much new biology remains to be discovered in the realm of T6SS effectors and immunity.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors have not formally shown that RdnE is delivered by the T6SS. Is it the case that there are not available genetics tools for gene deletion for the BB2000 strain? If there are genetic tools available, standard assays to demonstrate T6SS-dependency would be to interrogate function via inactivation of the T6SS (e.g. by deleting tssC).

      Our research group showed that the T6SS secretes RdnE (previously IdrD) in Wenren et al., 2013 (cited in lines 71-73). We later confirmed T6SS-dependent secretion by LC-MS/MS (Saak et al., 2017).  

      For swarm cross-phyla competition assays (Figure 4), at what level compared to cognate immunity are the non-cognate immunity proteins being expressed? This is unclear from the methods and Figure 4 legend and should be elaborated upon. Presumably these non-cognate immunity proteins are being overexpressed. Expression level and effector-to-immunity protein stoichiometry likely matters for interpretation of function, both in vitro as well as in relevant settings in nature. It is important to assess if native expression levels of non-cognate cross-phyla immunity (e.g. Rothia and Prevotella) protect similarly as the endogenously produced cognate immunity. This experiment could be performed in several ways, for example by deleting the RdnE-I pair and complementing back the Rothia or Prevotella RdnI at the same chromosomal locus, then performing the swarm assay. Alternatively, if there are inducible expression systems available for Proteus, examination of protection under varying levels of immunity induction could be an alternate way to address this question. Western blot analysis comparing cognate to non-cognate immunity protein levels expressed in Proteus could also be important. If the authors were interested in deriving physical binding constants between E and various cognate and non-cognate I (e.g. through isothermal titration calorimetry) that would be a strong set of data to support the claims made. The co-IP data presented in supplemental Figure 6 are nice but are from E. coli cells overexpressing each protein and do not fully address the question of in vivo (in Proteus) native expression.

      P. mirabilis strain ATCC29906 does not encode the rdnE and rdnI genes on the chromosome (NCBI BioSample: SAMN00001486) (line 151). Production of the RdnI proteins, including the cognate Proteus RdnI, comes from equivalent transgenic expression vectors. Specifically, the rdnI genes were expressed under the flaA promoter in P. mirabilis strain ATCC29906 (Table 1) for the swarm competition assays found in Figure 2C and Figure 4. This promoter results in constitutive expression in swarming cells (Belas et al., 1991; Jansen et al., 2003). In the revised manuscript, figure 4 Supplement Figure 2 shows the relative RdnI protein levels in these strains; we also clarified the expression constructs in the text (see reviewer 3, comment 1).

      Lines 321-324, the authors infer differences between E and I in terms of read recruitment (greater abundance of I) to indicate the presence of orphan immunity genes in metagenomic samples (Figure 5A-D). It seems equally or perhaps more likely that there is substantial sequence divergence in E compared to the reference sequence. In fact, metagenomes analyzed were required only to have "half of the bases on reference E-I sequence receiving coverage". Variation in coverage again could reflect divergent sequence dipping below 90% identity cutoff. I recommend performing metagenomic assemblies on these samples to assess and curate the E-I sequences present in each sample and then recalculating coverage based on the exact inferred sequences from each sample.

      This comment raises the challenges with metagenomic analyses. It was difficult to balance specificity to a particular species’ DNA sequence with the prevalence of any homologous sequence in the sample. Given the distinction in binding interactions among the examined four species, we opted to prioritize specificity, accepting that we were losing access to some rdnE and rdnI sequences in that decision. We chose a 90% identity cutoff, which, through several in silica controls, ensured that each sequence we identified was the rdnE or rdnI gene from that specific species. For the Version of Record, we have included analysis with a 70% cutoff in the supplemental information to try to account for sequence divergence by lowering the identity cutoffs as suggested. The data from the 70% identity cutoff was consistent with the original data from the 90% identity cutoff.

      A description of gene-level read recruitment in the methods section relating to metagenomic analysis is lacking and should be provided.

      Noted. We included the raw code and sequences on the OSF website associated with this manuscript https://osf.io/scb7z/.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:<br /> The authors discovered that the RdnE effector possesses DNase activity, and in competition, P. mirabilis having RdnE outcompetes the null strain. Additionally, they presented evidence that the RdnI immunity protein binds to RdnE, suppressing its toxicity. Interestingly, the authors demonstrated that the RdnI homolog from a different phylum (i.e., Actinomycetota) provides cross-species protection against RdnE injected from P. mirabilis, despite the limited identity between the immunity sequences. Finally, using metagenomic data from human-associated microbiomes, the authors provided bioinformatic evidence that the rdnE/rdnI gene pair is widespread and present in individual microbiomes. Overall, the discovery of broad protection by non-cognate immunity is intriguing, although not necessarily surprising in retrospect, considering the prolonged period during which Earth was a microbial battlefield/paradise.

      Strengths:<br /> The authors presented a strong rationale in the manuscript and characterized the molecular mechanism of the RdnE effector both in vitro and in the heterologous expression model. The utilization of the bacterial two-hybrid system, along with the competition assays, to study the protective action of RdnI immunity is informative. Furthermore, the authors conducted bioinformatic analyses throughout the manuscript, examining the primary sequence, predicted structural, and metagenomic levels, which significantly underscore the significance and importance of the EI pair. 

      Weaknesses:<br /> (1) The interaction between RdnI and RdnE appears to be complex and requires further investigation. The manuscript's data does not conclusively explain how RdnI provides a "promiscuous" immunity function, particularly concerning the RdnI mutant/chimera derivatives. The lack of protection observed in these cases might be attributed to other factors, such as a decrease in protein expression levels or misfolding of the proteins. Additionally, the transient nature of the binding interaction could be insufficient to offer effective defenses.

      Yes, we agree with the reviewer and hope that grant reviewers’ share this colleague’s enthusiasm for understanding the detailed molecular mechanisms of RdnE-RdnI binding across genera. In the revised manuscript, we have continued to emphasize such caveats as the next frontier is clearly understanding the molecular mechanisms for RdnI cognate or non-cognate protection. In the revised manuscript, figure 4 Supplement Figure 2 shows the RdnI protein levels; we also clarified the expression constructs in the text (see reviewer 2, comment 2).

      (2) The results from the mixed population competition lack quantitative analysis. The swarm competition assays only yield binary outcomes (Yes or No), limiting the ability to obtain more detailed insights from the data.

      The mixed swam assay is needed when studying T6SS effectors that are primarily secreted during Proteus’ swarming activity (Saak et al. 2017, Zepeda-Rivera et al. 2018). This limitation is one reason we utilize in vitro, in vivo, and bioinformatic analyses. Though the swarm competition assay yields a binary outcome, we are confident that the observed RdnI protection is due to interaction with a trans-cell RdnE via an active T6SS. By contrast, many manuscripts report co-expression of the EI pair (Yadev et al., 2021, Hespanhol et al., 2022) rather than secreted effectors, as we have achieved in this manuscript.

      (3) The discovery of cross-species protection is solely evident in the heterologous expression-competition model. It remains uncertain whether this is an isolated occurrence or a common characteristic of RdnI immunity proteins across various scenarios. Further investigations are necessary to determine the generality of this behavior.

      We agree, which is why we submitted this paper as a launching point for further investigations into the generality of non-cognate interactions and their potential impact on community structure.

      Comments from Reviewing Editor:<br />  - In addition to the references provided by reviewer#2, the first manuscript to show non-cognate binding of immunity proteins was Russell et al 2012 (PMID: 22607806).<br />  - IdrD was shown to form a subfamily of effectors in this manuscript by Hespanhol et al 2022 PMID: 36226828 that analyzed several T6SS effectors belonging to PDDExK, and it should be cited.

      We appreciate that the reviewer and eLife staff pointed out missed citations. We have incorporated these studies and cited them in the revised manuscript.

      [1] The Proteus RdnE in complex with either the Prevotella or Pseudomonas RdnI showed low confidence at the interface (pIDDT ~50-70%); this AI-predicted complex might support the lack of binding seen in the bacterial two-hybrid assay. On the other hand, the Proteus and Rothia RdnI N-terminal regions show higher confidence at the interface with RdnE. Despite this, the C-terminus of the Proteus RdnI shows especially low confidence (pIDDT ~50%) where it might interact near RdnE’s active site (as suggested by reviewer 1). Given this low confidence and the already stated inaccuracies of AI-generated complexes, we would rather wait for crystallization data to inform potential protection mechanisms of RdnI.

      Author response image 1.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the reviewers for their constructive comments and suggestions. We have prepared a revised manuscript with updated quantification of theta cycle skipping, new statistical comparisons of the difference between the two behavioral tasks, and general improvements to the text and figures.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary

      The authors provide very compelling evidence that the lateral septum (LS) engages in theta cycle skipping.

      Strengths

      The data and analysis are highly compelling regarding the existence of cycle skipping.

      Weaknesses

      The manuscript falls short on in describing the behavioral or physiological importance of the witnessed theta cycle skipping, and there is a lack of attention to detail with some of the findings and figures:

      More/any description is needed in the article text to explain the switching task and the behavioral paradigm generally. This should be moved from only being in methods as it is essential for understanding the study.

      Following this suggestion, we have expanded the description of the behavioral tasks in the Results section.

      An explanation is needed as to how a cell can be theta skipping if it is not theta rhythmic.

      A cell that is purely theta skipping (i.e., always fires on alternating theta cycles and never on adjacent theta cycles) will only have enhanced power at half theta frequency and not at theta frequency. Such a cell will therefore not be considered theta rhythmic in our analysis. Note, however, that there is a large overlap between theta rhythmic and theta skipping cell populations in our data (Figure 3 - figure supplement 2), indicating that most cells are not purely theta skipping.

      The most interesting result, in my opinion, is the last paragraph of the entire results section, where there is more switching in the alternation task, but the reader is kind of left hanging as to how this relates to other findings. How does this relate to differences in decoding of relative arms (the correct or incorrect arm) during those theta cycles or to the animal's actual choice? Similarly, how does it relate to the animal's actual choice? Is this phenomenon actually behaviorally or physiologically meaningful at all? Does it contribute at all to any sort of planning or decision-making?

      We agree that the difference between the two behavioral tasks is very interesting. It may provide clues about the mechanisms that control the cycle-by-cycle expression of possible future paths and the potential impact of goal-directed planning and (recent) experience. In the revised manuscript, we have expanded the analysis of the differences in theta-cycle dynamics between the two behavioral tasks. First, we confirm the difference through a new quantification and statistical comparison. Second, we performed additional analyses to explore the idea that the alternation of non-local representations reflects the number of relevant paths available to the animal (Figure 11 – figure supplements 2 and 3), but this did not appear to be the case. However, these results provide a starting point for future studies to clarify the task dependence of the theta- cycle dynamics of spatial representations and to address the important question of behavioral/physiological relevance.

      The authors state that there is more cycle skipping in the alternation task than in the switching task, and that this switching occurs in the lead-up to the choice point. Then they say there is a higher peak at ~125 in the alternation task, which is consistent. However, in the final sentence, the authors note that "This result indicates that the representations of the goal arms alternate more strongly ahead of the choice point when animals performed a task in which either goal arm potentially leads to reward." Doesn't either arm potentially lead to a reward (but different amounts) in the switching task, not the alternation task? Yet switching is stronger in the alternation task, which is not constant and contradicts this last sentence.

      The reviewer is correct that both choices lead to (different amounts of) reward in the switching task. As written, the sentence that the reviewer refers to is indeed not accurate and we have rephrased it to: “This result indicates that the representations of the goal arms alternate more strongly ahead of the choice point when animals performed a task in which either goal arm potentially leads to a desirable high-value reward.”.

      Additionally, regarding the same sentence - "representations of the goal arms alternate more strongly ahead of the choice point when the animals performed a task in which either goal arm potentially leads to reward." - is this actually what is going on? Is there any reason at all to think this has anything to do with reward versus just a navigational choice?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s feedback and acknowledge that our statement needs clarification. At the choice point in the Y-maze there are two physical future paths available to the animal (disregarding the path that the animal took to reach the choice point) – we assume this is what the reviewer refers to as “a navigational choice”. One hypothesis could be that alternation of goal arm representations is present whenever there are multiple future paths available, irrespective of the animal’s (learned) preference to visit one or the other goal arm. However, the reduced alternation of goal arm representations in the switching task that we report, suggests that the animal’s recent history of goal arm visits and reward expectations likely do influence the theta-cycle representations ahead of the choice point. We have expanded our analysis to test if theta cycle dynamics differ for trials before and after a switch in reward contingency in the switching task, but there was no statistical difference in our data. We have rewritten and expanded this part of the results to make our point more clearly.

      Similarly, the authors mention several times that the LS links the HPC to 'reward' regions in the brain, and it has been found that the LS represents rewarded locations comparatively more than the hippocampus. How does this relate to their finding?

      Indeed, Wirtshafter and Wilson (2020) reported that lateral septum cells are more likely to have a place field close to a reward site than elsewhere in their double-sided T-maze. It is possible that this indicates a shift towards reward or value representations in the lateral septum. In our study we did not look at reward-biased cells and whether they are more or less likely to engage in theta cycle skipping. This could be a topic for future analyses. It should be noted that the study by Wirtshafter and Wilson (2020) reports that a reward bias was predominantly present for place fields in the direction of travel away from the reward site. These reward-proximate LS cells may thus contribute to theta-cycle skipping in the inbound direction, but it is not clear if these cells would be active during theta sweeps when approaching the choice point in the outbound direction.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review)

      Summary

      Recent evidence indicates that cells of the navigation system representing different directions and whole spatial routes fire in a rhythmic alternation during 5-10 Hz (theta) network oscillation (Brandon et al., 2013, Kay et al., 2020). This phenomenon of theta cycle skipping was also reported in broader circuitry connecting the navigation system with the cognitive control regions (Jankowski et al., 2014, Tang et al., 2021). Yet nothing was known about the translation of these temporally separate representations to midbrain regions involved in reward processing as well as the hypothalamic regions, which integrate metabolic, visceral, and sensory signals with the descending signals from the forebrain to ensure adaptive control of innate behaviors (Carus-Cadavieco et al., 2017). The present work aimed to investigate theta cycle skipping and alternating representations of trajectories in the lateral septum, neurons of which receive inputs from a large number of CA1 and nearly all CA3 pyramidal cells (Risold and Swanson, 1995). While spatial firing has been reported in the lateral septum before (Leutgeb and Mizumori, 2002, Wirtshafter and Wilson, 2019), its dynamic aspects have remained elusive. The present study replicates the previous findings of theta-rhythmic neuronal activity in the lateral septum and reports a temporal alternation of spatial representations in this region, thus filling an important knowledge gap and significantly extending the understanding of the processing of spatial information in the brain. The lateral septum thus propagates the representations of alternative spatial behaviors to its efferent regions. The results can instruct further research of neural mechanisms supporting learning during goal-oriented navigation and decision-making in the behaviourally crucial circuits entailing the lateral septum.

      Strengths

      To this end, cutting-edge approaches for high-density monitoring of neuronal activity in freely behaving rodents and neural decoding were applied. Strengths of this work include comparisons of different anatomically and probably functionally distinct compartments of the lateral septum, innervated by different hippocampal domains and projecting to different parts of the hypothalamus; large neuronal datasets including many sessions with simultaneously recorded neurons; consequently, the rhythmic aspects of the spatial code could be directly revealed from the analysis of multiple spike trains, which were also used for decoding of spatial trajectories; and comparisons of the spatial coding between the two differently reinforced tasks.

      Weaknesses

      Possible in principle, with the present data across sessions, longitudinal analysis of the spatial coding during learning the task was not performed. Without using perturbation techniques, the present approach could not identify the aspects of the spatial code actually influencing the generation of behaviors by downstream regions.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review)

      Summary

      Bzymek and Kloosterman carried out a complex experiment to determine the temporal spike dynamics of cells in the dorsal and intermediate lateral septum during the performance of a Y-maze spatial task. In this descriptive study, the authors aim to determine if inputting spatial and temporal dynamics of hippocampal cells carry over to the lateral septum, thereby presenting the possibility that this information could then be conveyed to other interconnected subcortical circuits. The authors are successful in these aims, demonstrating that the phenomenon of theta cycle skipping is present in cells of the lateral septum. This finding is a significant contribution to the field as it indicates the phenomenon is present in neocortex, hippocampus, and the subcortical hub of the lateral septal circuit. In effect, this discovery closes the circuit loop on theta cycle skipping between the interconnected regions of the entorhinal cortex, hippocampus, and lateral septum. Moreover, the authors make 2 additional findings: 1) There are differences in the degree of theta modulation and theta cycle skipping as a function of depth, between the dorsal and intermediate lateral septum; and 2) The significant proportion of lateral septum cells that exhibit theta cycle skipping, predominantly do so during 'non-local' spatial processing.

      Strengths

      The major strength of the study lies in its design, with 2 behavioral tasks within the Y-maze and a battery of established analyses drawn from prior studies that have established spatial and temporal firing patterns of entorhinal and hippocampal cells during these tasks. Primary among these analyses, is the ability to decode the animal's position relative to locations of increased spatial cognitive demand, such as the choice point before the goal arms. The presence of theta cycle skipping cells in the lateral septum is robust and has significant implications for the ability to dissect the generation and transfer of spatial routes to goals within and between the neocortex and subcortical neural circuits.

      Weaknesses

      There are no major discernable weaknesses in the study, yet the scope and mechanism of the theta cycle phenomenon remain to be placed in the context of other phenomena indicative of spatial processing independent of the animal's current position. An example of this would be the ensemble-level 'scan ahead' activity of hippocampal place cells (Gupta et al., 2012; Johnson & Redish, 2007). Given the extensive analytical demands of the study, it is understandable that the authors chose to limit the analyses to the spatial and burst firing dynamics of the septal cells rather than the phasic firing of septal action potentials relative to local theta oscillations or CA1 theta oscillations. Yet, one would ideally be able to link, rather than parse the phenomena of temporal dynamics. For example, Tingley et al recently showed that there was significant phase coding of action potentials in lateral septum cells relative to spatial location (Tingley & Buzsaki, 2018). This begs the question as to whether the non-uniform distribution of septal cell activity within the Y-maze may have a phasic firing component, as well as a theta cycle skipping component. If so, these phenomena could represent another means of information transfer within the spatial circuit during cognitive demands. Alternatively, these phenomena could be part of the same process, ultimately representing the coherent input of information from one region to another. Future experiments will therefore have to sort out whether theta cycle skipping, is a feature of either rate or phase coding, or perhaps both, depending on circuit and cognitive demands.

      The authors have achieved their aims of describing the temporal dynamics of the lateral septum, at both the dorsal extreme and the intermediate region. All conclusions are warranted.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      The text states: "We found that 39.7% of cells in the LSD and 32.4% of cells in LSI had significantly higher CSI values than expected by chance on at least one of the trajectories." The text in the supplemental figure indicates a p-value of 0.05 was used to determine significance. However, four trajectory categories are being examined so a Bonferroni correction should be used (significance at p<0.0125).

      Indeed, a p-value correction for multiple tests should be performed when determining theta cycle skipping behavior for each of the four trajectories. We thank the reviewer for pointing out this oversight. We have implemented a Holm-Sidak p-value correction for the number of tested trajectories per cell (excluding trajectories with insufficient spikes). As a consequence, the number of cells with significant cycle-skipping activity decreased, but overall the results have not changed.

      Figure 4 is very confusing as raster plots are displayed for multiple animals but it is unclear which animal the LFP refers to? The bottom of the plot is also referenced twice in the figure caption.

      We apologize for the confusion. We have removed this figure in the revised manuscript, as it was not necessary to make the point about the spatial distribution of theta cycle skipping. Instead, we show examples of spatially-resolved cycle skipping in Figure 4 (formerly Figure 5 - supplementary figures 1 and 2) and we have added a plot with the spatially-resolved cycle skipping index for all analyzed cells in Figure 5A.

      Figure 6 has, I think, an incorrect caption or figure. Only A and B are marked in the figure but A-G are mentioned in the caption but do not appear to correspond to anything in the figure.

      Indeed, the caption was outdated. This has now been corrected.

      Figure 8 is also confusing for several reasons: how is the probability scale on the right related to multiple semi-separate (top and middle) figures? In the top and bottom figures, it is not clear what the right and left sides refer to. It is also unclear why a probability of 0.25 is used for position (seems potentially low). The caption also mentions Figure A but there are no lettered "sub" figures in Figure 8.

      The color bar on the right applies to both the top plot (directional decoding) and the middle plot (positional decoding). However, the maximum probability that is represented by black differs between the top and middle plots. We acknowledge that a shared color bar may lead to confusion and we have given each of the plots a separate color bar.

      As for the maximum probability of 0.25 for position: this was a typo in the legend. The correct maximum value is 0.5. In general, the posterior probability will be distributed over multiple (often neighboring) spatial bins, and the distribution of maximum probabilities will depend on the number of spatial bins, the level of spatial smoothing in the decoding algorithm, and the amount of decodable information in the data. It would be more appropriate to consider the integrated probability over a small section of the maze, rather than the peak probability that is assigned to a single 5 cm bin. Also, note that a posterior probability of 0.5 is many times higher than the probability associated with a uniform distribution, which is in our case.

      The left and right sides of the plots represent two different journeys that the animal ran. On the left an outbound journey is shown, and on the right an inbound journey. We have improved the figure and the description in the legend to make this clearer.

      The reviewer is correct that there are no panels in Figure 8 and we have corrected the legend.

      Some minor concerns

      The introduction states that "a few studies have reported place cell-like activity in the lateral septum (Tingley and Buzsaki, 2018; Wirtshafter and Wilson, 2020, 2019)." However, notably and controversially, the Tingley study is one of the few studies to find NO place cell activity in the lateral septum. This is sort of mentioned later but the citation in this location should be removed.

      The reviewer is correct, Tingley and Buzsaki reported a spatial phase code but no spatial rate code. We have removed the citation.

      Stronger position/direction coding in the dLS consistent with prior studies and they should be cited in text (not a novel finding).

      Thank you for pointing out this omission. Indeed, a stronger spatial coding in the dorsal lateral septum has been reported before, for example by Van der Veldt et al. (2021). We now cite this paper when discussing these findings.

      Why is the alternation task administered for 30m but the switching task for 45m?

      The reason is that rats received a larger reward in the switching task (in the high-reward goal arm) and took longer to complete trials on average. To obtain a more-or-less similar number of trials per session in both tasks, we extended the duration of switching task sessions to 45 minutes. We have added this explanation to the text.

      Regarding the percentage of spatially modulated cells in the discussion, it is also worth pointing out that bits/sec information is consistent with previous studies.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We now point out that the spatial information in our data is consistent with previous studies.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      While the results of the study are robust and timely, further details of behavioural training, additional quantitative comparisons, and improvements in the data presentation would make the study more comprehensible and complete.

      Major comments

      (1) I could not fully comprehend the behavioural protocols. They require a clearer explanation of both the specific rationale of the two tasks as well as a more detailed presentation of the protocols. Specifically:

      (1.1) In the alternation task, were the arms baited in a random succession? How many trials were applied per session? Fig 1D: how could animals reach high choice accuracy if the baiting was random?

      We used a continuous version of the alternation task, in which the animals were rewarded for left→home→right and right→home→left visit sequences. In addition, animals were always rewarded on inbound journeys. There was no random baiting of goal arms. Perhaps the confusion stems from our use of the word “trial” to refer to a completed lap (i.e., a pair of outbound/inbound journeys). On average, animals performed 54 of such trials per 30-minute session in the alternation task. We have expanded the description of the behavioral tasks in the Results and further clarified these points in the Methods section.

      (1.2) Were they rewarded for correct inbound trials? If there was no reward, why were they considered correct?

      Yes, rats received a reward at the home platform for correct inbound trials. We have now explicitly stated this in the text.

      (1.3) In the switch alternation protocol, for how many trials was one arm kept more rewarding than the other, and how many trials followed after the rewarding value switch?

      A switch was triggered when rats (of their own volition) visited the high-reward goal arm eight times in a row. Following a switch, the animals could complete as many trials as necessary until they visited the new high- reward goal arm in eight consecutive trials, which triggered another switch. As can be seen in Figure 1D, at the population level, animals needed ~13 trials to fully commit to the high-reward goal arm following a switch. We have further clarified the switching task protocol in the Results and Methods sections.

      (1.4) What does the phrase "the opposite arm (as 8 consecutive visits)" exactly mean? Sounds like 8 consecutive visits signalled that the arm was rewarded (as if were not predefined in the protocol).

      The task is self-paced and the animals initially visit both goal arms, before developing a bias for the high- reward goal arm. A switch of reward size was triggered as soon as the animal visited the high-reward goal arm for eight consecutive trials. We have rewritten the description of the switching task protocol, including this sentence, which hopefully clarifies the procedure.

      (1.5) P. 15, 1st paragraph, Theta cycle skipping and alternation of spatial representations is more prominent in the alternation task. Why in the switching task, did rats visit the left and right arms approximately equally often if one was more rewarding than the other? How many switches were applied per recording session, and how many trials were there in total?

      Both the left and right goal arms were sampled more or less equally by the animals because both goal arms at various times were associated with a large reward following switches in reward values during sessions. The number of switches per session varied from 1 to 3. Sampling of both goal arms was also evident at the beginning of each session and following each reward value switch, before animals switched their behavior to the (new) highly rewarded goal arm. In Table 1, we have now listed the number of trials and the number of reward-value switches for all sessions.

      (1.6) Is the goal arm in figures the rewarded/highly rewarded arm only or are non-baited arms also considered here?

      Both left and right arms are considered goal arms and were included in the analyses, irrespective of the reward that was received (or not received).

      (2) The spatial navigation-centred behavioural study design and the interpretation of results highlight the importance of the dorsal hippocampal input to the LS. Yet, the recorded LSI cells are innervated by intermediate and ventral aspects of the hippocampus, and LS receives inputs from the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex, which together may together bring about - crucial for the adaptive behaviours regulated by the LS - reward, and reward-prediction-related aspects in the firing of LS cells during spatial navigation. Does success or failure to acquire reward in a trial modify spatial coding and cycle skipping of LSD vs. LSI cells in ensuing inbound and outbound trials?

      This is an excellent question and given the length of the current manuscript, we think that exploration of this question is best left for a future extension of our study.

      A related question: in Figure 10, it is interesting that cycle skipping is prominent in the goal arm for outbound switching trials and inbound trials of both tasks. Could it be analytically explained by task contingencies and behaviour (e.g. correct/incorrect trial, learning dynamics, running speed, or acceleration)?

      Our observation of cycle skipping at the single-cell level in the goal arms is somewhat surprising and, we agree with the reviewer, potentially interesting. However, it was not accompanied by alternation of representations at the population level. Given the current focus and length of the manuscript, we think further investigation of cycle skipping in the goal arm is better left for future analyses.

      (3) Regarding possible cellular and circuit mechanisms of cycle skipping and their relation to the alternating representations in the LS. Recent history of spiking influences the discharge probability; e.g. complex spike bursts in the hippocampus are associated with a post-burst delay of spiking. In LS, cycle skipping was characteristic for LS cells with high firing rates and was not uniformly present in all trajectories and arms. The authors propose that cycle skipping can be more pronounced in epochs of reduced firing, yet the opposite seems also possible - this phenomenon can be due to an intermittently increased drive onto some LS cells. Was there a systematic relationship between cycle skipping in a given cell and the concurrent firing rate or a recent discharge with short interspike intervals?

      In our discussion, we tried to explain the presence of theta cycle skipping in the goal arms at the single-cell level without corresponding alternation dynamics at the population level. We mentioned the possibility of a decrease in excitatory drive. As the reviewer suggests, an increase in excitatory drive combined with post- burst suppression or delay of spiking is an alternative explanation. We analyzed the spatial tuning of cells with theta cycle skipping and found that, on average, these cells have a higher firing rate in the goal arm than the stem of the maze in both outbound and inbound run directions (Figure 5 – figure supplement 1). In contrast, cells that do not display theta cycle skipping do not show increased firing in the goal arm. These results are more consistent with the reviewer’s suggested mechanism and we have updated the discussion accordingly.

      (4) Were the differences between the theta modulation (cycle skipping) of local vs. non-local representations (P.14, line 10-12, "In contrast...", Figure 9A) and between alternation vs. switching tasks (Figure 10 C,D) significantly different?

      We have added quantification and statistical comparisons for the auto- and cross-correlations of the local/non-local representations. The results indeed show significantly stronger theta cycle skipping of the non-local representations as compared to the local representations (Figure 10 - figure supplement 1A), a stronger alternation of non-local representations in the outbound direction (Figure 10 - figure supplement 1B), and significant differences between the two tasks (Figure 11E,F).

      (5) Regarding the possibility of prospective coding in LS, is the accurate coding of run direction not consistent with prospective coding? Can the direction be decoded from the neural activity in the start arm? Are the cycling representations of the upcoming arms near the choice point equally likely or preferential for the then- selected arm?

      The coding of run direction (outbound or inbound) is distinct from the prospective/retrospective coding of the goal arm. As implemented, the directional decoding model does not differentiate between the two goal arms and accurate decoding of direction with this model can not inform us whether or not there is prospective (or retrospective) coding. To address the reviewer’s comments, we performed two additional analyses. First, we analyzed the directional (outbound/inbound) decoding performance as a function of location in the maze (Figure 6 - figure supplement 3E). The results show that directional decoding performance is high in both stem and goal arms. Second, we analyzed how well we can predict the trajectory type (i.e., to/from the left or right goal arm) as a function of location in the maze, and separately for outbound and inbound trajectories (Figure 6 - figure supplement 3C,D). The results show that on outbound journeys, decoding the future goal arm is close to chance when the animals are running along the stem. The decoding performance goes up around the choice point and reaches the highest level when animals are in the goal arm.

      (6) Figure 10 seems to show the same or similar data as Figures 5 (A,B) and 9 (C,D).

      Figure 10 (figure 11 in revised manuscript) re-analyzes the same data as presented in Figures 5 and 9, but separates the experimental sessions according to the behavioral task. We now explicitly state this.

      Minor comments

      (1) If cycle skipping in the periodicity of non-local representations was more prominent in alternation than in the switching task, one might expect them to be also prominent in early trials of the switching task, when the preference of a more rewarding arm is not yet established. Was this the case?

      The reviewer makes an interesting suggestion. Indeed, if theta cycle skipping and the alternation of non-local representations reflect that there are multiple paths that the animal is considering, one may predict that the theta skipping dynamics are similar between the two tasks in early trials (as the reviewer suggests). Similarly, one may predict that in the switching task, the alternation of non-local representations is weaker immediately before a reward contingency switch (when the animal has developed a bias towards the goal arm with a large reward) as compared to after the switch.

      We have now quantified the theta cycle dynamics of spatial representations in the early trials in each session of both tasks (Figure 11 - figure supplement 2) and in the trials before and after each switch in the switching task (Figure 11 - figure supplement 3).

      The results of the early trial analysis indicate stronger alternation of non-local representations in the alternation task than in the switching task (consistent with the whole session analysis), which is contrary to the prediction.

      The pre-/post-switch analysis did not reveal a significant difference between the trials before and after a reward contingency switch. If anything, there was a trend towards stronger theta cycle skipping/alternation in the trials before a switch, which would be opposite to the prediction.

      These results do not appear to support the idea that the alternation of non-local representations reflects the number of relevant paths available to the animal. We have updated the text to incorporate these new data and discuss the implications.

      (2) Summary: sounds like the encoding of spatial information and its readout in the efferent regions are equally well established.

      Thank you for pointing this out.

      (3) Summary: "motivation and reward processing centers such as the ventral tegmental area." How about also mentioning here the hypothalamus, which is a more prominent output of the lateral septum than the VTA?

      We have now also mentioned the hypothalamus.

      (4) "lateral septum may contribute to the hippocampal theta" - readers not familiar with details of the medial vs. lateral septum research may misinterpret the modest role of LS in theta compared to MS.

      We have added “in addition to the strong theta drive originating from the medial septum” to make clear that the lateral septum has a modest role in hippocampal theta generation.

      (5) "(Tingley and Buzsáki, 2018) found a lack of spatial rate coding in the lateral septum and instead reported a place coding by specific phases of the hippocampal theta rhythm (Rizzi-Wise and Wang, 2021) " needs rephrasing.

      Thank you, we have rephrased the sentence.

      (6) Figure 4 is a bit hard to generalize. The authors may additionally consider a sorted raster presentation of the dataset in this main figure.

      We have removed this figure in the revised manuscript, as it was not necessary to make the point about the location of theta cycle skipping. Instead, we show examples of spatially-resolved cycle skipping in Figure 4 (formerly Figure 5 - supplementary figures 1 and 2), and, following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have added a plot with the spatially-resolved cycle skipping index for all analyzed cells (Figure 5A).

      (7) It would help if legends of Figure 5 (and related supplementary figures) state in which of the two tasks the data was acquired, as it is done for Figure 10.

      Thank you for the suggestion. The legends of Figure 4A,B (formerly Figure 5 – supplemental figures 1 and 2) and Figure 5 now include in which behavioral task the data was acquired.

      (8) Page 10, "Spatial coding...", 1st Citing the initial report by Leugeb and Mizumori would be appropriate here too.

      The reviewer is correct. We have added the citation.

      (9) The legend in Figure 6 (panels A-G) does not match the figure (only panels A,B). What is shown in Fig. 6B, the legend does not seem to fully match.

      Indeed, the legend was outdated. This has now been corrected.

      (10) 7 suppl., if extended to enable comparisons, could be a main figure. Presently, Figure 7C does not account for the confounding effect of population size and is therefore difficult to interpret without complex comparisons with the Supplementary Figure which is revealing per se.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We have changed Figure 7 such that it only shows the analysis of decoding performed with all LSD and LSI cells. Figure 7 – supplemental figure 1 has been transformed into main Figure 8, with the addition of a panel to show a statistical comparison between decoding performance in LSD and LSI with a fixed number of cells.

      (11) 14, line 10 there is no Figure 8A

      This has been corrected.

      (12) 15 paragraph 1, is the discussed here model the one from Kay et al?

      From Kay et al. (2020) and also Wang et al. (2020). We have added the citations.

      (13) Figure 5 - Figure Supplement 1 presents a nice analysis that, in my view, can merit a main figure. I could not find the description of the colour code in CSI panels, does grey/red refer to non/significant points?

      Indeed, grey/red refers to non-significant points and significant points respectively. We have clarified the color code in the figure legend. Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have made Figure 5 Supplement 1 and 2 a main figure (Figure 4).

      (14) Figure 5 -Figure Supplement 2. Half of the cells (255 and 549) seems not to be representative of the typically high SCI in the goal arm in left and right inbound trials combined (Figure 5 A). Were the changes in CSI in the right and left inbound trials similar enough to be combined in Fig 5A? Otherwise, considering left and right inbound runs separately and trying to explain where the differences come from would seem to make sense.

      Figure 5 – figure supplement 2 is now part of the new main Figure 4. Originally, the examples were from a single session and the same cells as shown in the old Figure 4. However, since the old Figure 4 has been removed, we have selected examples from different sessions and both left/right trajectories that are more representative of the overall distribution. We have further added a plot with the spatially-resolved cycle skipping for all analyzed cells in Figure 5A.

      (15) In the second paragraph of the Discussion, dorso-ventral topography of hippocampal projections to the LS (Risold and Swanson, Science, 90s) could be more explicitly stated here.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have now explicitly mentioned the dorsal-ventral topography of hippocampal-lateral septum projections and cite Risold & Swanson (1997).

      (16) Discussion point: why do the differences in spatial information of cells in the ventral/intermediate vs. dorsal hippocampus not translate into similarly prominent differences in LSI vs. LSD?

      In our data, we do observe clear differences in spatial coding between LSD and LSI. Specifically, cell activity in the LSD is more directional, has higher goal arm selectivity, and higher spatial information (we have now added statistical comparisons to Figure 6 – figure supplement 1). As a result, spatial decoding performance is much better for LSD cell populations than LSI cell populations (see updated Figure 8, with statistical comparison of decoding performance). Spatial coding in the LS is not as strong as in the hippocampus, likely because of the convergence of hippocampal inputs, which may give the impression of a less prominent difference between the two subregions.

      (17) Discussion, last paragraph: citation of the few original anatomical and neurophysiological studies would be fitting here, in addition to the recent review article.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have added selected citations of the original literature.

      (18) Methods, what was the reference electrode?

      We used an external reference electrode that was soldered to a skull screw, which was positioned above the cerebellum. We have added this to the Methods section.

      (19) Methods, Theta cycle skipping: bandwidth = gaussian kerner parameter?

      The bandwidth is indeed a parameter of the Gaussian smoothing kernel and is equal to the standard deviation.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      Below I offer a short list of minor comments and suggestions that may benefit the manuscript.

      (A) I was not able to access the Open Science Framework Repository. Can this be rectified?

      Thank you for checking the OSF repository. The data and analysis code are now publicly available.

      (B) In the discussion the authors should attempt to flesh out whether they can place theta cycle skipping into context with left/right sweeps or scan ahead phenomena, as shown in the Redish lab.

      Thank you for the excellent suggestion. We have now added a discussion of the possible link between theta cycle skipping and the previously reported scan-ahead theta sweeps.

      (C) What is the mechanism of cycle skipping? This could be relevant to intrinsic vs network oscillator models. Reference should also be made to the Deshmukh model of interference between theta and delta (Deshmukh, Yoganarasimha, Voicu, & Knierim, 2010).

      We had discussed a potential mechanism in the discussion (2nd to last paragraph in the revised manuscript), which now includes a citation of a recent computational study (Chu et al., 2023). We have now also added a reference to the interference model in Deshmukh et al, 2010.

      (D) Little background was given for the motivation and expectation for potential differences between the comparison of the dorsal and intermediate lateral septum. I don't believe that this is the same as the dorsal/ventral axis of the hippocampus, but if there's a physiological justification, the authors need to make it.

      We have added a paragraph to the introduction to explain the anatomical and physiological differences across the lateral septum subregions that provide our rationale for comparing dorsal and intermediate lateral septum (we excluded the ventral lateral septum because the number of cells recorded in this region was too low).

      (E) It would help to label "outbound" and "inbound" on several of the figures. All axes need to be labeled, with appropriate units indicated.

      We have carefully checked the figures and added inbound/outbound labels and axes labels where appropriate.

      (F) In Figure 6, the legend doesn't match the figure.

      Indeed, the legend was outdated. This has now been corrected.

      (G) The firing rate was non-uniform across the Y-maze. Does this mean that the cells tended to fire more in specific positions of the maze? If so, how would this affect the result? Would increased theta cycle skipping at the choice point translate to a lower firing rate at the choice point? Perhaps less overdispersion of the firing rate (Fenton et al., 2010)?

      Individual cells indeed show a non-uniform firing rate across the maze. To address the reviewer’s comment and test if theta cycle skipping cells were active preferentially near the choice point or other locations, we computed the mean-corrected spatial tuning curves for cell-trajectory pairs with and without significant theta cycle skipping. This additional analysis indicates that, on average, the population of theta cycle skipping cells showed a higher firing rate in the goal arms than in the stem of the maze as compared to non-skipping cells for outbound and inbound directions (shown in Figure 5 - figure supplement 1).

      (H) As mentioned above, it could be helpful to look at phase preference. Was there an increased phase preference at the choice point? Would half-cycle firing correlate with an increased or decreased phase preference? Based on prior work, one would expect increased phase preference, at least in CA1, at the choice point (Schomburg et al., 2014). In contrast, other work might predict phasic preference according to spatial location (Tingley & Buzsaki, 2018). Including phase analyses is a suggestion, of course. The manuscript is already sufficiently novel and informative. Yet, the authors should state why phase was not analyzed and that these questions remain for follow-up analyses. If the authors did analyze this and found negative results, it should be included in this manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We have not yet analyzed the theta phase preference of lateral septum cells or other relations to the theta phase. We agree that this would be a valuable extension of our work, but prefer to leave it for future analyses.

      (I) One of the most important aspects of the manuscript, is that there is now evidence of theta cycle skipping in the circuit loop between the EC, CA1, and LS. This now creates a foundation for circuit-based studies that could dissect the origin of route planning. Perhaps the authors should state this? In the same line of thinking, how would one determine whether theta cycle skipping is necessary for route planning as opposed to a byproduct of route planning? While this question is extremely complex, other studies have shown that spatial navigation and memory are still possible during the optogenetic manipulation of septal oscillations (Mouchati, Kloc, Holmes, White, & Barry, 2020; Quirk et al., 2021). However, pharmacological perturbation or lesioning of septal activity can have a more profound effect on spatial navigation (Bolding, Ferbinteanu, Fox, & Muller, 2019; Winson, 1978). As a descriptive study, I think it would be helpful to remind the readers of these basic concepts.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment and for pointing out possible future directions for linking theta cycle skipping to route planning. Experimental manipulations to directly test this link would be very challenging, but worthwhile to pursue. We now mention how circuit-based studies may help to test if theta cycle skipping in the broader subcortical-cortical network is necessary for route planning. Given that the discussion is already quite long, we decided to omit a more detailed discussion of the possible role of the medial septum (which is the focus of the papers cited by the reviewer).

      Very minor points

      (A) In the introduction, "one study" begins the sentence but there is a second reference.

      Thank you, we have rephrased the sentence.

      (B) Also in the introduction, it could be helpful to have an operational definition of theta cycle skipping (i.e., 'enhanced rhythmicity at half theta frequency').

      We followed the reviewer’s suggestion.

      (C) The others should be more explicit in the introduction about their main question. Theta cycle skipping exists in CA1, and then import some of the explanations mentioned in the discussion to the introduction (i.e., attractors states of multiple routes). The main question is then whether this phenomenon, and others from CA1, translate to the output in LS.

      We have edited the introduction to more clearly state the main question of our study, following the suggestion from the reviewer.

      (D) There are a few instances of extra closing parentheses.

      We checked the text but did not find instances of erroneous extra closing parentheses. There are instances of nested parentheses, which may have given the impression that closing parentheses were duplicated.

      (E) The first paragraph of the Discussion lacks sufficient references.

      We have now added references to the first paragraph of the discussion.

      (F) At the end of the 2nd paragraph in the Discussion, the comparison is missing. More than what? It's not until the next reference that one can assume that the authors are referring to a dorsal/ventral axis. However, the physiological motivation for this comparison is lacking. Why would one expect a dorsal/intermediate continuum for theta modulation as there is along the dorsal/ventral axis of the hippocampus?

      Thank you for spotting this omission. We have rewritten the paragraph to more clearly make the parallel between dorsal-ventral gradients in the lateral septum and hippocampus and how this relates to the topographical connections between the two structures.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer 1 (Public Review):

      Summary

      The manuscript uses state-of-the-art analysis technology to document the spatio-temporal dynamics of brain activity during the processing of threats. The authors offer convincing evidence that complex spatio-temporal aspects of brain dynamics are essential to describe brain operations during threat processing.

      Strengths

      Rigorous complex analyses well suited to the data.

      Weaknesses

      Lack of a simple take-home message about discovery of a new brain operation.

      We have addressed the concern under response to item 1 in Recommendations for the authors of Reviewer 2 below.

      Reviewer 1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The paper presents sophisticated analyses of how the spatiotemporal activity of the brain processes threats. While the study is elegant and relevant to the threat processing literature, it could be improved by better clarification of novelty, scope, assumptions and implications. Suggestions are reported below.

      (1) Introduction: It is difficult to understand what is unsatisfactory in the present literature and why we need this study. For example, lines 57-64 report what works well in the work of Anderson and Fincham but do not really describe what this approach lacks, either in failing to explain real data in conceptual terms.

      We have edited the corresponding lines to better describe what such approaches generally lack:

      Introduction; Lines 63-66: However, the mapping between brain signals and putative mental states (e.g., “encoding”) remained speculative. More generally, state-based modeling of fMRI data would benefit from evaluation in contexts where the experimental paradigm affords a clearer mapping between discovered states and experimental manipulation.

      (2) Also, based on the introduction it is unclear if the focus is on understanding the processing of threat or in the methodological development of experimental design and analysis paradigms for more ecologically valid situations.

      In our present work, we tried to focus on understanding dynamics of threat processing while also contributing to methodological development of analysis of dynamic/ecologically inspired experiments. To that end, we have added a new paragraph at the end of Introduction to clarify the principal focus of our work:

      Introduction; Lines 111-118: Is the present contribution focused on threat processing or methodological developments for the analysis of more continuous/ecologically valid paradigms? Our answer is “both”. One goal was to contribute to the development of a framework that considers brain processing to be inherently dynamic and multivariate. In particular, our goal was to provide the formal basis for conceptualizing threat processing as a dynamic process (see (Fanselow and Lester, 1987)) subject to endogenous and exogenous contributions. At the same time, our study revealed how regions studied individually in the past (e.g., anterior insula, cingulate cortex) contribute to brain states with multi-region dynamics.

      (3) The repeated statement, based on the Fiete paper, that most analyses or models of brain activity do not include an exogenous drive seems an overstatement. There is plenty of literature that not only includes exogenous drives but also studies and documents them in detail. There are many examples, but a prominent one is the study of auditory processing. Essentially all human brain areas related to hearing (not only the activity of individual areas but also their communication) are entrained by the exogenous drive of speech (e.g. J. Gross et al, PLoS Biology 11 e1001752, 2013).

      We have altered the original phrasing, which now reads as:

      Introduction; Lines 93-95: Importantly, we estimated both endogenous and exogenous components of the dynamics, whereas some past work has not modeled both contributions (see discussion in (Khona and Fiete, 2022)).

      Discussion; Lines 454-455: Work on dynamics of neural circuits in systems neuroscience at times assumes that the target circuit is driven only by endogenous processes (Khona and Fiete, 2022).

      (4) Attractor dynamics is used as a prominent descriptor of fMRI activity, yet the discussion of how this may emerge from the interaction between areas is limited. Is it related to the way attractors emerge from physical systems or neural networks (e.g. Hopfield?).

      This is an important question that we believe will benefit from computational and mathematical modeling, but we consider it beyond the scope of the present paper.

      (5) Fig 4 shows activity of 4 regions, not 2 s stated in lines 201-202. Correct?

      Fig. 4 shows activity of two regions and also the average activity of regions belonging to two resting-state networks engaged during threat processing (discussed shortly after lines 201-202). To clarify the above concern, we have changed the following line:

      Results; Lines 228-230: In Fig. 4, we probed the average signals from two resting-state networks engaged during threat-related processing, the salience network which is particularly engaged during higher threat, and the default network which is engaged during conditions of relative safety.

      (6) It would be useful to state more clearly how Fig 7B, C differs from Fig 2A, B (my understanding it is that in the former they are isolating the stimulus-driven processes)

      We have clarified this by adding the following line in the Results:

      Results; Lines 290-292: Note that in Fig. 7B/C we evaluated exogenous contributions only for stimuli associated with each state/state transition reported in Fig. 2A/B (see also Methods).

      Reviewer 2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      This paper by Misra and Pessoa uses switching linear dynamical systems (SLDS) to investigate the neural network dynamics underlying threat processing at varying levels of proximity. Using an existing dataset from a threat-of-shock paradigm in which threat proximity is manipulated in a continuous fashion, the authors first show that they can identify states that each has their own linear dynamical system and are consistently associated with distinct phases of the threat-of-shock task (e.g., “peri-shock”, “not near”, etc). They then show how activity maps associated with these states are in agreement with existing literature on neural mechanisms of threat processing, and how activity in underlying brain regions alters around state transitions. The central novelty of the paper lies in its analyses of how intrinsic and extrinsic factors contribute to within-state trajectories and betweenstate transitions. A final set of analyses shows how the findings generalize to another (related) threat paradigm.

      Strengths

      The analyses for this study are conducted at a very high level of mathematical and theoretical sophistication. The paper is very well written and effectively communicates complex concepts from dynamical systems. I am enthusiastic about this paper, but I think the authors have not yet exploited the full potential of their analyses in making this work meaningful toward increasing our neuroscientific understanding of threat processing, as explained below.

      Weaknesses

      (1) I appreciate the sophistication of the analyses applied and/or developed by the authors. These methods have many potential use cases for investigating the network dynamics underlying various cognitive and affective processes. However, I am somewhat disappointed by the level of inferences made by the authors based on these analyses at the level of systems neuroscience. As an illustration consider the following citations from the abstract: “The results revealed that threat processing benefits from being viewed in terms of dynamic multivariate patterns whose trajectories are a combination of intrinsic and extrinsic factors that jointly determine how the brain temporally evolves during dynamic threat” and “We propose that viewing threat processing through the lens of dynamical systems offers important avenues to uncover properties of the dynamics of threat that are not unveiled with standard experimental designs and analyses”. I can agree to the claim that we may be able to better describe the intrinsic and extrinsic dynamics of threat processing using this method, but what is now the contribution that this makes toward understanding these processes?

      We have addressed the concern under response to item 1 in Recommendations for the authors below.

      (2) How sure can we be that it is possible to separate extrinsically and intrinsically driven dynamics?

      We have addressed the concern under response to item 2 in Recommendations for the authors below.

      Reviewer 2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) To address the first point under weaknesses above: I would challenge the authors to make their results more biologically/neuroscientifically meaningful, in particular in the sections (in results and/or discussion) on how intrinsic and extrinsic factors contribute to within-state trajectories and between-state transitions, and make those explicit in both the abstract and the discussion (what exactly are the properties of the dynamics of threat that are uncovered?). The authors may also argue that the current approach lies the groundwork for such efforts, but does not currently provide such insights. If they would take this position, that should be made explicit throughout (which would make it more of a methodological paper).

      The SLDS approach provides, we believe, a powerful framework to describe system-level dynamics (of threat processing in the the present case). A complementary type of information can be obtained by studying the contribution of individual components (brain regions) within the larger system (brain), an approach that helps connect our approach to studies that typically focus on the contributions of individual regions, and contributes to providing more neurobiological interpretability to the results. Accordingly, we developed a new measure of region importance that captured the extent to which individual brain regions contributed to driving system dynamics during a given state.

      Abstract; Lines 22-25: Furthermore, we developed a measure of region importance that quantifies the contributions of an individual brain region to system dynamics, which complements the system-level characterization that is obtained with the state-space SLDS formalism.

      Introduction; Lines 95-99: A considerable challenge in state-based modeling, including SLDS, is linking estimated states and dynamics to interpretable processes. Here, we developed a measure of region importance that provides a biologically meaningful way to bridge this gap, as it quantifies how individual brain regions contribute to steering state trajectories.

      Results; Lines 302-321: Region importance and steering of dynamics: Based on time series data and input information, the SLDS approach identifies a set of states and their dynamics. While these states are determined in the latent space, they can be readily mapped back to the brain, allowing for the characterization of spatiotemporal properties across the entire brain. Since not all regions contribute equally to state properties, we propose that a region’s impact on state dynamics serves as a measure of its importance.

      We illustrate the concept for STATE 5 (“near miss”) in Fig. 8 (see Fig. S17 for all states). Fig. 8A shows importance in the top row and activity below as a function of time from state entry.The dynamics of importance and activity can be further visualized (Fig. 8B), where some regions of particularly high importance are illustrated together with the ventromedial PFC, a region that is typically not engaged during high-threat conditions. Notably, the importance of the dorsal anterior insula increased quickly in the first time points, and later decreased. In contrast, the importance of the periaqueductal gray was relatively high from the beginning of the state and decreased moderately later.

      Fig. 8C depicts the correlation between these measures as a function of time. For all but STATE 1, the correlation increased over time. Interestingly, for STATES 4-5, the correlation was low at the first and second time points of the state (and for STATE 2 at the first time point), and for STATE 3 the measures were actually anticorrelated; both cases indicate a dissociation between activity and importance. In summary, our results illustrate that univariate region activity can differ from multivariate importance, providing a fruitful path to understand how individual brain regions contribute to collective dynamic properties.

      Discussion; Lines 466-487: In the Introduction, we motivated our study in terms of determining multivariate and distributed patterns of activity with shared dynamics. At one end of the spectrum, it is possible to conceptualize the whole brain as dynamically evolving during a state; at the other end, we could focus on just a few “key” regions, or possibly a single one (at which point the description would be univariate). Here, we addressed this gap by studying the importance of regions to state dynamics: To what extent does a region steer the trajectory of the system? From a mathematical standpoint, our proposed measure is not merely a function of activity of a region but also of the coefficients of the dynamics matrix capturing its effect on across-region dynamics (Eichler, 2005; Smith et al., 2010).

      How distributed should the dynamics of threat be considered? One answer to this question is to consider the distribution of importance values for all states. For STATE 1 (“post shock”), a few regions displayed the highest importance values for a few time points. However, for the other states the distribution of importance values tended to be more uniform at each time point. Thus, based on our proposed importance measure, we conclude that threat-related processing is profitably viewed as substantially distributed. Furthermore, we found that while activity and importance were relatively correlated, they could also diverge substantially. Together, we believe that the proposed importance measure provides a valuable tool for understanding the rich dynamics of threat processing. For example, we discovered that the dorsal anterior insula is important not only during high-anxiety states (such as STATE 5; “near miss”) but also, surprisingly, for a state that followed the aversive shock event (STATE 1; “post shock”). Additionally, we noted that posterior cingulate cortex, widely known to play a central role in the default mode network, to have the highest importance among all other regions in driving dynamics of low-anxiety states (such as STATE 3 and STATE 4; “not near”).

      Methods; Lines 840-866: Region importance We performed a “lesion study”, where we quantified how brain regions contribute to state dynamics by eliminating (zeroing) model parameters corresponding to a given region, and observing the resulting changes in system dynamics. According to our approach, the most important regions are those that cause the greatest change in system dynamics when eliminated.

      The SLDS model represents dynamics in a low dimensional latent space and model parameters are not readily available at the level of individual regions. Thus, the first step was to project the dynamics equation onto the brain data prior to computing importance values. Thus, the linear dynamics equation in the latent space (Eq. 2) was mapped to the original data space of N = 85 ROIs using the emissions model (Eq. 1):

      where C<sup>†</sup> represents the Moore-Penrose pseudoinverse of C, and and denote the corresponding dynamics matrix, input matrix, and bias terms in the original data space.

      Based on the above, we defined the importance of the i<sup>th</sup> ROI at time t based on quantifying the impact of “lesioning” the i<sup>th</sup> ROI, i.e., by setting the i<sup>th</sup> column of , the i<sup>th</sup> row of ,   and the i<sup>th</sup> element of to 0, denoted , , and respectively. Formally, the importance of the i<sup>th</sup> ROI was defined as:

      where ‘∗’ indicates element-wise multiplication of a scalar with a vector, is the activity of i<sup>th</sup> ROI at time corresponds to the i<sup>th</sup> column of is the inner product between i<sup>th</sup> row of and input corresponds to the i<sup>th</sup> element of and represents an indicator vector corresponding to the i<sup>th</sup> ROI. Note that the term is a function of both the i<sup>th</sup> ROI’s activity as well as the coefficients of the dynamics matrix capturing the effect of region i on the one-step dynamics of the entire system (Eichler, 2005; Smith et al., 2010); the remaining terms capture the effect of the external inputs and the bias term on the one-step dynamics of the i<sup>th</sup> ROI.

      After computing for a given run, the resultant importance time series was normalized to zero mean and unit variance.

      (2) To address the second point under the weaknesses above: Given that the distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic dynamics appears central to the novelty of the paper, I would suggest the authors explicitly address this issue in the introduction and/or discussion sections.

      The distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic dynamics is a modeling assumption of SLDS. We used such an assumption because in experimental designs with experimenter manipulated inputs one can profitably investigate both types of contribution to dynamics. While we should not reify the model’s assumption, we can gain confidence in our separation of extrinsically and intrinsically driven dynamics through controlled experiments where we can manipulate external inputs, or by demonstrating time-scale separation of intrinsic and extrinsic dynamics and that they operate at different frequencies. This is an important question that requires additional computational/mathematical modeling, but we consider it beyond the scope of the current paper. We have added the following lines in the discussion section:

      Discussion; Lines 521-528: A further issue that we wish to discuss is related to the distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic dynamics, which is explicitly modeled in our SLDS approach (see Methods, equation 2). We believe this is a powerful approach because in experimental designs with experimenter manipulated inputs, one can profitably investigate both types of contribution to dynamics. However, complete separation between intrinsic and extrinsic dynamics is challenging to ascertain. More generally, one can gain confidence in their separation through controlled experiments where external inputs are manipulated, or by demonstrating timescale separation of intrinsic and extrinsic dynamics.

      (3) In the abstract, the statement “.. studies in systems neuroscience that frequently assume that systems are decoupled from external inputs” sounds paradoxical after first introducing how threat processing is almost exclusively studied using blocked and event-related task designs (which obviously rely on external inputs only). Please clarify this.

      In this work, we wished to state that the SLDS framework characterizes both endogenous and exogenous contributions to dynamics, whereas some past work has not modeled both contributions. To clarify, we have changed the corresponding line:

      Abstract; Lines 19-20: Importantly, we characterized both endogenous and exogenous contributions to dynamics.

      (4) In the abstract, the first mention of circles comes out of the blue; the paradigm needs to be introduced first to make this understandable.

      We have rephrased the corresponding text:

      Abstract; Lines 14-17: First, we demonstrated that the SLDS model learned the regularities of the experimental paradigm, such that states and state transitions estimated from fMRI time series data from 85 regions of interest reflected threat proximity and threat approach vs. retreat.

      (5 In Figure 3, the legend shows z-scores representing BOLD changes associated with states. However, the z-scores are extremely low (ranging between -.4 and .4). Can this be correct, given that maps are thresholded at p < ._001 (i.e., _z > 3_._09)? A similar small range of z-scores is shown in the legend of Fig 5. Please check the z-score ranges.

      The p-value threshold used in Fig. 3 is based on the voxelwise t-test conducted between the participantbased bootstrapped maps and null maps (see Methods : State spatial maps : “To identify statistically significant voxels, we performed a paired t-test between the participant-based boostrapped maps and the null maps.”). Thus, the p-value threshold in the figure does not correspond to the z-scores of the groupaveraged state-activation maps. Similarly in Fig. 5, we only visualized the state-wise attractors on a brain surface map without any thresholding. The purpose of using a z-score color bar was to provide a scale comparable to that of BOLD activity.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Thank you very much for the careful and positive reviews of our manuscript. We have addressed each comment in the attached revised manuscript. We describe the modifications below. To avoid confusion, we've changed supplementary figure and table captions to start with "Supplement Figure" and "Supplementary Table," instead of "Figure" and "Table."

      We have modified/added:

      ● Supplementary Table S1: AUC scores for the top 10 frequent epitope types (pathogens) in the testing set of epitope split.

      ● Supplementary Table S5: AUCs of TCR-epitope binding affinity prediction models with BLOSUM62 to embed epitope sequences.

      ● Supplementary Table S6: AUCs of TCR-epitope binding affinity prediction models trained on catELMo TCR embeddings and random-initialized epitope embeddings.

      ● Supplementary Table S7: AUCs of TCR-epitope binding affinity prediction models trained on catELMo and BLOSUM62 embeddings.

      ● Supplementary Figure 4: TCR clustering performance for the top 34 abundant epitopes representing 70.55% of TCRs in our collected databases.

      ● Section Discussion.

      ● Section 4.1 Data: TCR-epitope pairs for binding affinity prediction.

      ● Section 4.4.2 Epitope-specific TCR clustering.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, the authors described a computational method catELMo for embedding TCR CDR3 sequences into numeric vectors using a deep-learning-based approach, ELMo. The authors applied catELMo to two applications: supervised TCR-epitope binding affinity prediction and unsupervised epitope-specific TCR clustering. In both applications, the authors showed that catELMo generated significantly better binding prediction and clustering performance than other established TCR embedding methods. However, there are a few major concerns that need to be addressed.

      (1) There are other TCR CDR3 embedding methods in addition to TCRBert. The authors may consider incorporating a few more methods in the evaluation, such as TESSA (PMCID: PMC7799492), DeepTCR (PMCID: PMC7952906) and the embedding method in ATM-TCR (reference 10 in the manuscript). TESSA is also the embedding method in pMTnet, which is another TCR-epitope binding prediction method and is the reference 12 mentioned in this manuscript.

      TESSA is designed for characterizing TCR repertoires, so we initially excluded it from the comparison. Our focus was on models developed specifically for amino acid embedding rather than TCR repertoire characterization. However, to address the reviewer's inquiry, we conducted further evaluations. Since both TESSA and DeepTCR used autoencoder-based models to embed TCR sequences, we selected one used in TESSA for evaluation in our downstream prediction task, conducting ten trials in total. It achieved an average AUC of 75.69 in TCR split and 73.3 in epitope split. Notably, catELMo significantly outperformed such performance with an AUC of 96.04 in TCR split and 94.10 in epitope split.

      Regarding the embedding method in ATM-TCR, it simply uses BLOSUM as an embedding matrix which we have already compared in Section 2.1. Furthermore, we have provided the comparison results between our prediction model trained on catELMo embeddings with the state-of-the-art prediction models such as netTCR and ATM-TCR in Table 6 of the Discussion section.

      (2) The TCR training data for catELMo is obtained from ImmunoSEQ platform, including SARS-CoV2, EBV, CMV, and other disease samples. Meanwhile, antigens related to these diseases and their associated TCRs are extensively annotated in databases VDJdb, IEDB and McPAS-TCR. The authors then utilized the curated TCR-epitope pairs from these databases to conduct the evaluations for eptitope binding prediction and TCR clustering. Therefore, the training data for TCR embedding may already be implicitly tuned for better representations of the TCRs used in the evaluations. This seems to be true based on Table 4, as BERT-Base-TCR outperformed TCRBert. Could catELMo be trained on PIRD as TCRBert to demonstrate catELMo's embedding for TCRs targeting unseen diseases/epitopes?

      We would like to note that catELMo was trained exclusively on TCR sequences in an unsupervised manner, which means it has never been exposed to antigen information. We also ensured that the TCRs used in catELMo's training did not overlap with our downstream prediction data. Please refer to the section 4.1 Data where we explicitly stated, “We note that it includes no identical TCR sequences with the TCRs used for training the embedding models.”. Moreover, the performance gap (~1%) between BERT-Base-TCR and TCRBert, as observed in Table 4, is relatively small, especially when compared to the performance difference (>16%) between catELMo and TCRBert.

      To further address this concern, we conducted experiments using the same number of TCRs, 4,173,895 in total, sourced exclusively from healthy ImmunoSeq repertoires. This alternative catELMo model demonstrated a similar prediction performance (based on 10 trials) to the one reported in our paper, with an average AUC of 96.35% in TCR split and an average AUC of 94.03% in epitope split.

      We opted not to train catELMo on the PIRD dataset for several reasons. First, approximately 7.8% of the sequences in PIRD also appear in our downstream prediction data, which could be a potential source of bias. Furthermore, PIRD encompasses sequences related to diseases such as Tuberculosis, HIV, CMV, among others, which the reviewer is concerned about.

      (3) In the application of TCR-epitope binding prediction, the authors mentioned that the model for embedding epitope sequences was catElMo, but how about for other methods, such as TCRBert? Do the other methods also use catELMo-embedded epitope sequences as part of the binding prediction model, or use their own model to embed the epitope sequences? Since the manuscript focuses on TCR embedding, it would be nice for other methods to be evaluated on the same epitope embedding (maybe adjusted to the same embedded vector length).

      Furthermore, the authors found that catELMo requires less training data to achieve better performance. So one would think the other methods could not learn a reasonable epitope embedding with limited epitope data, and catELMo's better performance in binding prediction is mainly due to better epitope representation.

      Review 1 and 3 have raised similar concerns regarding the epitope embedding approach employed in our binding affinity prediction models. We address both comments together on page 6 where we discuss the epitope embedding strategies in detail.

      (4) In the epitope binding prediction evaluation, the authors generated the test data using TCR-epitope pairs from VDJdb, IEDB, McPAS, which may be dominated by epitopes from CMV. Could the authors show accuracy categorized by epitope types, i.e. the accuracy for TCR-CMV pair and accuracy for TCR-SARs-CoV2 separately?

      The categorized AUC scores have been added in Supplementary Table 7. We observed significant performance boosts from catELMo compared with other embedding models.

      (5) In the unsupervised TCR clustering evaluation, since GIANA and TCRdist direct outputs the clustering result, so they should not be affected by hierarchical clusters. Why did the curves of GIANA and TCRdist change in Figure 4 when relaxing the hierarchical clustering threshold?

      For fair comparisons, we performed GIANA and TCRdist with hierarchical clustering instead of the nearest neighbor search. We have clarified it in the revised manuscript as follows.

      “Both methods are developed on the BLOSUM62 matrix and apply nearest neighbor search to cluster TCR sequences. GIANA used the CDR3 of TCRβ chain and V gene, while TCRdist predominantly experimented with CDR1, CDR2, and CDR3 from both TCRα and TCRβ chains. For fair comparisons, we perform GIANA and TCRdist only on CDR3 β chains and with hierarchical clustering instead of the nearest neighbor search.”

      (6 & 7) In the unsupervised TCR clustering evaluation, the authors examined the TCR related to the top eight epitopes. However, there are much more epitopes curated in VDJdb, IEDB and McPAS-TCR. In real application, the potential epitopes is also more complex than just eight epitopes. Could the authors evaluate the clustering result using all the TCR data from the databases? In addition to NMI, it is important to know how specific each TCR cluster is. Could the authors add the fraction of pure clusters in the results? Pure cluster means all the TCRs in the cluster are binding to the same epitope, and is a metric used in the method GIANA.

      We would like to note that there is a significant disparity in TCR binding frequencies across different epitopes in current databases. For instance, the most abundant epitope (KLGGALQAK) has approximately 13k TCRs binding to it, while 836 out of 982 epitopes are associated with fewer than 100 TCRs in our dataset. Furthermore, there are 9347 TCRs having the ability to bind multiple epitopes. In order to robustly evaluate the clustering performance, we originally selected the top eight frequent epitopes from McPAS and removed TCRs binding multiple epitopes to create a more balanced dataset.

      We acknowledge that the real-world scenario is more complex than just eight epitopes. Therefore, we conducted clustering experiments using the top most abundant epitopes whose combined cognate TCRs make up at least 70% of TCRs across three databases (34 epitopes). This is illustrated in Supplementary Figure 5. Furthermore, we extended our analysis by clustering all TCRs after filtering out those that bind to multiple epitopes, resulting in 782 unique epitopes. We found that catELMo achieved the 3rd and 2nd best performance in NMI and Purity, respectively (see Table below). These are aligned with our previous observations of the eight epitopes.

      Author response table 1.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In the manuscript, the authors highlighted the importance of T-cell receptor (TCR) analysis and the lack of amino acid embedding methods specific to this domain. The authors proposed a novel bi-directional context-aware amino acid embedding method, catELMo, adapted from ELMo (Embeddings from Language Models), specifically designed for TCR analysis. The model is trained on TCR sequences from seven projects in the ImmunoSEQ database, instead of the generic protein sequences. They assessed the effectiveness of the proposed method in both TCR-epitope binding affinity prediction, a supervised task, and the unsupervised TCR clustering task. The results demonstrate significant performance improvements compared to existing embedding models. The authors also aimed to provide and discuss their observations on embedding model design for TCR analysis: 1) Models specifically trained on TCR sequences have better performance than models trained on general protein sequences for the TCR-related tasks; and 2) The proposed ELMo-based method outperforms TCR embedding models with BERT-based architecture. The authors also provided a comprehensive introduction and investigation of existing amino acid embedding methods. Overall, the paper is well-written and well-organized.

      The work has originality and has potential prospects for immune response analysis and immunotherapy exploration. TCR-epitope pair binding plays a significant role in T cell regulation. Accurate prediction and analysis of TCR sequences are crucial for comprehending the biological foundations of binding mechanisms and advancing immunotherapy approaches. The proposed embedding method presents an efficient context-aware mathematical representation for TCR sequences, enabling the capture and analysis of their structural and functional characteristics. This method serves as a valuable tool for various downstream analyses and is essential for a wide range of applications. Thank you.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Here, the authors trained catElMo, a new context-aware embedding model for TCRβ CDR3 amino acid sequences for TCR-epitope specificity and clustering tasks. This method benchmarked existing work in protein and TCR language models and investigated the role that model architecture plays in the prediction performance. The major strength of this paper is comprehensively evaluating common model architectures used, which is useful for practitioners in the field. However, some key details were missing to assess whether the benchmarking study is a fair comparison between different architectures. Major comments are as follows:

      • It is not clear why epitope sequences were also embedded using catELMo for the binding prediction task. Because catELMO is trained on TCRβ CDR3 sequences, it's not clear what benefit would come from this embedding. Were the other embedding models under comparison also applied to both the TCR and epitope sequences? It may be a fairer comparison if a single method is used to encode epitope sequence for all models under comparison, so that the performance reflects the quality of the TCR embedding only.

      In our study, we indeed used the same embedding model for both TCRs and epitopes in each prediction model, ensuring a consistent approach throughout.

      Recognizing the importance of evaluating the impact of epitope embeddings, we conducted experiments in which we used BLOSUM62 matrix to embed epitope sequences for all models. The results (Supplementary Table 5) are well aligned with the performance reported in our paper. This suggests that epitope embedding may not play as critical a role as TCR embedding in the prediction tasks. To further validate this point, we conducted two additional experiments.

      Firstly, we used catELMo to embed TCRs while employing randomly initialized embedding matrices with trainable parameters for epitope sequences. It yielded similar prediction performance as when catELMo was used for both TCR and epitope embedding (Supplementary Table 6). Secondly, we utilized BLOSUM62 to embed TCRs but employed catELMo for epitope sequence embedding, resulting in performance comparable to using BLOSUM62 for both TCRs and epitopes (Supplementary Table 4). These experiment results confirmed the limited impact of epitope embedding on downstream performance.

      We conjecture that these results may be attributed to the significant disparity in data scale between TCRs (~290k) and epitopes (less than 1k). Moreover, TCRs tend to exhibit high similarity, whereas epitopes display greater distinctiveness from one another. These features of TCRs require robust embeddings to facilitate effective separation and improve downstream performance, while epitope embedding primarily serves as a categorical encoding.

      We have included a detailed discussion of these findings in the revised manuscript to provide a comprehensive understanding of the role of epitope embeddings in TCR binding prediction.

      • The tSNE visualization in Figure 3 is helpful. It makes sense that the last hidden layer features separate well by binding labels for the better performing models. However, it would be useful to know if positive and negative TCRs for each epitope group also separate well in the original TCR embedding space. In other words, how much separation between these groups is due to the neural network vs just the embedding?

      It is important to note that we used the same downstream prediction model, a simple three-linear-layer network, for all the discussed embedding methods. We believe that the separation observed in the t-SNE visualization effectively reflects the ability of our embedding model. Also, we would like to mention that it can be hard to see a clear distinction between positive and negative TCRs in the original embedding space because embedding models were not trained on positive/negative labels. Please refer to the t-SNE of the original TCR embeddings below.

      Author response image 1.

      • To generate negative samples, the author randomly paired TCRs from healthy subjects to different epitopes. This could produce issues with false negatives if the epitopes used are common. Is there an estimate for how frequently there might be false negatives for those commonly occurring epitopes that most populations might also have been exposed to? Could there be a potential batch effect for the negative sampled TCR that confounds with the performance evaluation?

      Thank you for bringing this valid and interesting point up. Generating negative samples is non-trivial since only a limited number of non-binding TCR-pairs are publicly available and experimentally validating non-binding pairs is costly [1]. Standard practices for generating negative pairs are (1) paring epitopes with healthy TCRs [2, 3], and (2) randomly shuffling existing TCR-epitope pairs [4,5]. We used both approaches (the former included in the main results, and the latter in the discussion). In both scenarios, catELMo embeddings consistently demonstrated superior performance.

      We acknowledge the possibility of false negatives due to the finite-sized TCR database from which we randomly selected TCRs, however, we believe that the likelihood of such occurrences is low. Given the vast diversity of human TCR clonotypes, which can exceed 10^15[6], the chance of randomly selecting a TCR that specifically recognizes a target epitope is relatively small.

      In order to investigate the batch effect, we generated new negative pairs using different seeds and observed consistent prediction performance across these variations. However, we agree that there could still be a potential batch effect for the negative samples due to potential data bias.

      We have discussed the limitation of generative negative samples in the revised manuscript.

      • Most of the models being compared were trained on general proteins rather than TCR sequences. This makes their comparison to catELMO questionable since it's not clear if the improvement is due to the training data or architecture. The authors partially addressed this with BERT-based models in section 2.4. This concern would be more fully addressed if the authors also trained the Doc2vec model (Yang et al, Figure 2) on TCR sequences as baseline models instead of using the original models trained on general protein sequences. This would make clear the strength of context-aware embeddings if the performance is worse than catElmo and BERT.

      We agree it is important to distinguish between the effects of training data and architecture on model performance.

      In Section 2.4, as the reviewer mentioned, we compared catELMo with BERT-based models trained on the same TCR repertoire data, demonstrating that architecture plays a significant role in improving performance. Furthermore, in Section 2.5, we compared catELMo-shallow with SeqVec, which share the same architecture but were trained on different data, highlighting the importance of data on the model performance.

      To further address the reviewer's concern, we trained a Doc2Vec model on the TCR sequences that have been used for catELMo training. We observed significantly lower prediction performance compared to catELMo, with an average AUC of 50.24% in TCR split and an average AUC of 51.02% in epitope split, making the strength of context-aware embeddings clear.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) It is known that TRB CDR3, the CDR1, CDR2 on TRBV gene and the TCR alpha chain also contribute to epitope recognition, but were not modeled in catELMo. It would be nice for the authors to add this as a current limitation for catELMo in the Discussion section.

      We have discussed the limitation in the revised manuscript.

      “Our study focuses on modeling the TCRβ chain CDR3 region, which is known as the primary determinant of epitope binding. Other regions, such as CDR1 and CDR2 on the TRB V gene, along with the TCRα chain, may also contribute to specificity in antigen recognition. However, a limited number of available samples for those additional features can be a challenge for training embedding models. Future work may explore strategies to incorporate these regions while mitigating the challenges of working with limited samples.”

      (2) I tried to follow the instructions to train a binding affinity prediction model for TCR-epitope pairs, however, the cachetools=5.3.0 seems could not be found when running "pip install -r requirements.txt" in the conda environment bap. Is this cachetools version supported after Python 3.7 so the Python 3.6.13 suggested on the GitHub repo might not work?

      This has been fixed. We have updated the README.md on our github page.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The article is well-constructed and well-written, and the analysis is comprehensive.

      The comments for minor issues that I have are as follows:

      (1) In the Methods section, it will be clearer if the authors interpret more on how the standard deviation is calculated in all tables. How to define the '10 trials'? Are they based on different random training and test set splits?

      ‘10 trials' refers to the process of splitting the dataset into training, validation, and testing sets using different seeds for each trial. Different trials have different training, validation, and testing sets. For each trial, we trained a prediction model on its training set and measured performance on its testing set. The standard deviation was calculated from the 10 measurements, estimating model performance variation across different random splits of the data.

      (2) The format of AUCs and the improvement of AUCs need to be consistent, i.e., with the percent sign.

      We have updated the format of AUCs.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In addition to the recommendations in the public review, we had the following more minor questions and recommendations:

      • Could you provide some more background on the data, such as overlaps between the databases, and how the training and validation split was performed between the three databases? Also summary statistics on the length of TCR and epitope sequence data would be helpful.

      We have provided more details about data in our revision.

      • Could you comment on the runtime to train and embed using the catELMo and BERT models?

      Our training data is TCR sequences with relatively short lengths (averaging less than 20 amino acid residues). Such characteristic significantly reduces the computational resources required compared to training large-scale language models on extensive text corpora. Leveraging standard machines equipped with two GeForce RTX 2080 GPUs, we were able to complete the training tasks within a matter of days. After training, embedding one sequence can be accomplished in a matter of seconds.

      • Typos and wording:

      • Table 1 first row of "source": "immunoSEQ" instead of "immuneSEQ"

      This has been corrected.

      • L23 of abstract "negates the need of complex deep neural network architecture" is a little confusing because ELMo itself is a deep neural network architecture. Perhaps be more specific and add that the need is for downstream tasks.

      We have made it more specific in our abstract.

      “...negates the need for complex deep neural network architecture in downstream tasks.”

      References

      (1) Montemurro, Alessandro, et al. "NetTCR-2.0 enables accurate prediction of TCR-peptide binding by using paired TCRα and β sequence data." Communications biology 4.1 (2021): 1060.

      (2) Jurtz, Vanessa Isabell, et al. "NetTCR: sequence-based prediction of TCR binding to peptide-MHC complexes using convolutional neural networks." BioRxiv (2018): 433706.

      (3) Gielis, Sofie, et al. "Detection of enriched T cell epitope specificity in full T cell receptor sequence repertoires." Frontiers in immunology 10 (2019): 2820.

      (4) Cai, Michael, et al. "ATM-TCR: TCR-epitope binding affinity prediction using a multi-head self-attention model." Frontiers in Immunology 13 (2022): 893247.

      (5) Weber, Anna, et al. "TITAN: T-cell receptor specificity prediction with bimodal attention networks." Bioinformatics 37 (2021): i237-i244.

      (6) Lythe, Grant, et al. "How many TCR clonotypes does a body maintain?." Journal of theoretical biology 389 (2016): 214-224.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors seek to establish what aspects of nervous system structure and function may explain behavioral differences across individual fruit flies. The behavior in question is a preference for one odor or another in a choice assay. The variables related to neural function are odor responses in olfactory receptor neurons or in the second-order projection neurons, measured via calcium imaging. A different variable related to neural structure is the density of a presynaptic protein BRP. The authors measure these variables in the same fly along with the behavioral bias in the odor assays. Then they look for correlations across flies between the structure-function data and the behavior.

      Strengths:

      Where behavioral biases originate is a question of fundamental interest in the field. In an earlier paper (Honegger 2019) this group showed that flies do vary with regard to odor preference, and that there exists neural variation in olfactory circuits, but did not connect the two in the same animal. Here they do, which is a categorical advance, and opens the door to establishing a correlation. The authors inspect many such possible correlations. The underlying experiments reflect a great deal of work, and appear to be done carefully. The reporting is clear and transparent: All the data underlying the conclusions are shown, and associated code is available online.

      We are glad to hear the reviewer is supportive of the general question and approach.

      Weaknesses:

      The results are overstated. The correlations reported here are uniformly small, and don't inspire confidence that there is any causal connection. The main problems are

      Our revision overhauls the interpretation of the results to prioritize the results we have high confidence in (specifically, PC 2 of our Ca++ data as a predictor of OCT-MCH preference) versus results that are suggestive but not definitive (such as PC 1 of Ca++ data as a predictor of Air-OCT preference).

      It’s true that the correlations are small, with R2 values typically in the 0.1-0.2 range. That said, we would call it a victory if we could explain 10 to 20% of the variance of a behavior measure, captured in a 3 minute experiment, with a circuit correlate. This is particularly true because, as the reviewer notes, the behavioral measurement is noisy.

      (1) The target effect to be explained is itself very weak. Odor preference of a given fly varies considerably across time. The systematic bias distinguishing one fly from another is small compared to the variability. Because the neural measurements are by necessity separated in time from the behavior, this noise places serious limits on any correlation between the two.

      This is broadly correct, though to quibble, it’s our measurement of odor preference which varies considerably over time. We are reasonably confident that more variance in our measurements can be attributed to sampling error than changes to true preference over time. As evidence, the correlation in sequential measures of individual odor preference, with delays of 3 hours or 24 hours, are not obviously different. We are separately working on methodological improvements to get more precise estimates of persistent individual odor preference, using averages of multiple, spaced measurements. This is promising, but beyond the scope of this study.

      (2) The correlations reported here are uniformly weak and not robust. In several of the key figures, the elimination of one or two outlier flies completely abolishes the relationship. The confidence bounds on the claimed correlations are very broad. These uncertainties propagate to undermine the eventual claims for a correspondence between neural and behavioral measures.

      We are broadly receptive to this criticism. The lack of robustness of some results comes from the fundamental challenge of this work: measuring behavior is noisy at the individual level. Measuring Ca++ is also somewhat noisy. Correlating the two will be underpowered unless the sample size is huge (which is impractical, as each data point requires a dissection and live imaging session) or the effect size is large (which is generally not the case in biology). In the current version we tried in some sense to avoid discussing these challenges head-on, instead trying to focus on what we thought were the conclusions justified by our experiments with sample sizes ranging from 20 to 60. Our revision is more candid about these challenges.

      That said, we believe the result we view as the most exciting — that PC2 of Ca++ responses predicts OCT-MCH preference — is robust. 1) It is based on a training set with 47 individuals and a test set composed of 22 individuals. The p-value is sufficiently low in each of these sets (0.0063 and 0.0069, respectively) to pass an overly stringent Bonferroni correction for the 5 tests (each PC) in this analysis. 2) The BRP immunohistochemistry provides independent evidence that is consistent with this result — PC2 that predicts behavior (p = 0.03 from only one test) and has loadings that contrast DC2 and DM2. Taken together, these results are well above the field-standard bar of statistical robustness.

      In our revision, we are explicit that this is the (one) result we have high confidence in. We believe this result convincingly links Ca++ and behavior, and warrants spotlighting. We have less confidence in other results, and say so, and we hope this addresses concerns about overstating our results.

      (3) Some aspects of the statistical treatment are unusual. Typically a model is proposed for the relationship between neuronal signals and behavior, and the model predictions are correlated with the actual behavioral data. The normal practice is to train the model on part of the data and test it on another part. But here the training set at times includes the testing set, which tends to give high correlations from overfitting. Other times the testing set gives much higher correlations than the training set, and then the results from the testing set are reported. Where the authors explored many possible relationships, it is unclear whether the significance tests account for the many tested hypotheses. The main text quotes the key results without confidence limits.

      Our primary analyses are exactly what the reviewer describes, scatter plots and correlations of actual behavioral measures against predicted measures. We produced test data in separate experiments, conducted weeks to months after models were fit on training data. This is more rigorous than splitting into training and test sets data collected in a single session, as batch/environmental effects reduce the independence of data collected within a single session.

      We only collected a test set when our training set produced a promising correlation between predicted and actual behavioral measures. We never used data from test sets to train models. In our main figures, we showed scatter plots that combined test and training data, as the training and test partitions had similar correlations.

      We are unsure what the reviewer means by instances where we explored many possible relationships. The greatest number of comparisons that could lead to the rejection of a null hypothesis was 5 (corresponding to the top 5 PCs of Ca++ response variation or Brp signal). We were explicit that the p-values reported were nominal. As mentioned above, applying a Bonferroni correction for n=5 comparisons to either the training or test correlations from the Ca++ to OCT-MCH preference model remains significant at alpha=0.05.

      Our revision includes confidence intervals around ⍴signal for the PN PC2 OCT-MCH model, and for the ORN Brp-Short PC2 OCT-MCH model (lines 170-172, 238)

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors aimed to identify the neural sources of behavioral variation in a decision between odor and air, or between two odors.

      Strengths:

      -The question is of fundamental importance.

      -The behavioral studies are automated, and high-throughput.

      -The data analyses are sophisticated and appropriate.

      -The paper is clear and well-written aside from some strong wording.

      -The figures beautifully illustrate their results.

      -The modeling efforts mechanistically ground observed data correlations.

      We are glad to read that the reviewer sees these strengths in the study. We hope the current revision addresses the strong wording.

      Weaknesses:

      -The correlations between behavioral variations and neural activity/synapse morphology are (i) relatively weak, (ii) framed using the inappropriate words "predict", "link", and "explain", and (iii) sometimes non-intuitive (e.g., PC 1 of neural activity).

      Taking each of these points in turn:

      i) It would indeed be nicer if our empirical correlations are higher. One quibble: we primarily report relatively weak correlations between measurements of behavior and Ca++/Brp. This could be the case even when the correlation between true behavior and Ca++/Brp is higher. Our analysis of the potential correlation between latent behavioral and Ca++ signals was an attempt to tease these relationships apart. The analysis suggests that there could, in fact, be a high underlying correlation between behavior and these circuit features (though the error bars on these inferences are wide).

      ii) We worked to ensure such words are used appropriately. “Predict” can often be appropriate in this context, as a model predicts true data values. Explain can also be appropriate, as X “explaining” a portion of the variance of Y is synonymous with X and Y being correlated. We cannot think of formal uses of “link,” and have revised the manuscript to resolve any inappropriate word choice.

      iii) If the underlying biology is rooted in non-intuitive relationships, there’s unfortunately not much we can do about it. We chose to use PCs of our Ca++/Brp data as predictors to deal with the challenge of having many potential predictors (odor-glomerular responses) and relatively few output variables (behavioral bias). Thus, using PCs is a conservative approach to deal with multiple comparisons. Because PCs are just linear transformations of the original data, interpreting them is relatively easy, and in interpreting PC1 and PC2, we were able to identify simple interpretations (total activity and the difference between DC2 and DM2 activation, respectively). All in all, we remain satisfied with this approach as a means to both 1) limit multiple comparisons and 2) interpret simple meanings from predictive PCs.

      No attempts were made to perturb the relevant circuits to establish a causal relationship between behavioral variations and functional/morphological variations.

      We did conduct such experiments, but we did not report them because they had negative results that we could not definitively interpret. We used constitutive and inducible effectors to alter the physiology of ORNs projecting to DC2 and DM2. We also used UAS-LRP4 and UAS-LRP4-RNAi to attempt to increase and decrease the extent of Brp puncta in ORNs projecting to DC2 and DM2. None of these manipulations had a significant effect on mean odor preference in the OCT-MCH choice, which was the behavioral focus of these experiments. We were unable to determine if the effectors had the intended effects in the targeted Gal4 lines, particularly in the LRP experiments, so we could not rule out that our negative finding reflected a technical failure.

      Author response image 1.

      We believe that even if these negative results are not technical failures, they are not necessarily inconsistent with the analyses correlating features of DC2 and DM2 to behavior. Specifically, we suspect that there are correlated fluctuations in glomerular Ca++ responses and Brp across individuals, due to fluctuations in the developmental spatial patterning of the antennal lobe. Thus, the DC2-DM2 predictor may represent a slice/subset of predictors distributed across the antennal lobe. This would also explain how we “got lucky” to find two glomeruli as predictors of behavior, when we were only able to image a small portion of the glomeruli.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Churgin et. al. seeks to understand the neural substrates of individual odor preference in the Drosophila antennal lobe, using paired behavioral testing and calcium imaging from ORNs and PNs in the same flies, and testing whether ORN and PN odor responses can predict behavioral preference. The manuscript's main claims are that ORN activity in response to a panel of odors is predictive of the individual's preference for 3-octanol (3-OCT) relative to clean air, and that activity in the projection neurons is predictive of both 3-OCT vs. air preference and 3-OCT vs. 4-methylcyclohexanol (MCH). They find that the difference in density of fluorescently-tagged brp (a presynaptic marker) in two glomeruli (DC2 and DM2) trends towards predicting behavioral preference between 3-oct vs. MCH. Implementing a model of the antennal lobe based on the available connectome data, they find that glomerulus-level variation in response reminiscent of the variation that they observe can be generated by resampling variables associated with the glomeruli, such as ORN identity and glomerular synapse density.

      Strengths:

      The authors investigate a highly significant and impactful problem of interest to all experimental biologists, nearly all of whom must often conduct their measurements in many different individuals and so have a vested interest in understanding this problem. The manuscript represents a lot of work, with challenging paired behavioral and neural measurements.

      Weaknesses:

      The overall impression is that the authors are attempting to explain complex, highly variable behavioral output with a comparatively limited set of neural measurements.

      We would say that we are attempting to explain a simple, highly variable behavioral measure with a comparatively limited set of neural measurements, i.e. we make no claims to explain the complex behavioral components of odor choice, like locomotion, reversals at the odor boundary, etc.

      Given the degree of behavioral variability they observe within an individual (Figure 1- supp 1) which implies temporal/state/measurement variation in behavior, it's unclear that their degree of sampling can resolve true individual variability (what they call "idiosyncrasy") in neural responses, given the additional temporal/state/measurement variation in neural responses.

      We are confident that different Ca++ recordings are statistically different. This is borne out in the analysis of repeated Ca++ recordings in this study, which finds that the significant PCs of Ca++ variation contain 77% of the variation in that data. That this variation is persistent over time and across hemispheres was assessed in Honegger & Smith, et al., 2019. We are thus confident that there is true individuality in neural responses (Note, we prefer not to call it “individual variability” as this could refer to variability within individuals, not variability across individuals.) It is a separate question of whether individual differences in neural responses bear some relation to individual differences in behavioral biases. That was the focus of this study, and our finding of a robust correlation between PC 2 of Ca++ responses and OCT-MCH preference indicates a relation. Because behavior and Ca++ were collected with an hours-to-day long gap, this implies that there are latent versions of both behavioral bias and Ca++ response that are stable on timescales at least that long.

      The statistical analyses in the manuscript are underdeveloped, and it's unclear the degree to which the correlations reported have explanatory (causative) power in accounting for organismal behavior.

      With respect, we do not think our statistical analyses are underdeveloped, though we acknowledge that the detailed reviewer suggestions included the helpful suggestion to include uncertainty in the estimation of confidence intervals around the point estimate of the strength of correlation between latent behavioral and Ca++ response states – we have added these for the PN PC2 linear model (lines 170-172).

      It is indeed a separate question whether the correlations we observed represent causal links from Ca++ to behavior (though our yoked experiment suggests there is not a behavior-to-Ca++ causal relationship — at least one where odor experience through behavior is an upstream cause). We attempted to be precise in indicating that our observations are correlations. That is why we used that word in the title, as an example. In the revision, we worked to ensure this is appropriately reflected in all word choice across the paper.

      Recommendations for the Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the Authors):

      Detailed comments: Many of the problems can be identified starting from Figure 4, which summarizes the main claims. I will focus on that figure and its tributaries.

      Acknowledging that the strength of several of our inferences are weak compared to what we consider the main result (the relationship between PC2 of Ca++ and OCT-MCH preference),we have removed Figure 4. This makes the focus of the paper much clearer and appropriately puts focus on the results that have strong statistical support.

      (1) The process of "inferring" correlation among the unobserved latent states for neural sensitivity and behavioral bias is unconventional and risky. The larger the assumed noise linking the latent to the observed variables (i.e. the smaller r_b and r_c) the bigger the inferred correlation rho from a given observed correlation R^2_cb. In this situation, the value of the inferred rho becomes highly dependent on what model one assumes that links latent to observed states. But the specific model drawn in Fig 4 suppl 1 is just one of many possible guesses. For example, models with nonlinear interactions could produce different inference.

      We agree with the reviewer’s notes of caution. To be clear, we do not intend for this analysis to be the main takeaway of the paper and have revised it to make this clear. The signal we are most confident in is the simple correlation between measured Ca++ PC2 and measured behavior. We have added more careful language saying that the attempt to infer the correlation between latent signals is one attempt at describing the data generation process (lines 166-172), and one possible estimate of an “underlying” correlation.

      (2) If one still wanted to go through with this inference process and set confidence bounds on rho, one needs to include all the uncertainties. Here the authors only include uncertainty in the value of R^2_c,b and they peg that at +/-20% (Line 1367). In addition there is plenty of uncertainty associated also with R^2_c,c and R^2_b,b. This will propagate into a wider confidence interval on rho.

      We have replaced the arbitrary +/- 20% window with bootstrapping the pairs of (predicted preference by PN PC2, measured preference) points and getting a bootstrap distribution of R2c,b, which is, not surprisingly, considerably wider. Still, we think there is some value in this analysis as the 90% CI of 𝜌signal under this model is 0.24-0.95. That is, including uncertainty about the R2b,b and R2c,c in the model still implies a significant relationship between latent calcium and behavior signals.

      (2.1) The uncertainty in R^2_cb is much greater than +/-20%. Take for example the highest correlation quoted in Fig 4: R^2=0.23 in the top row of panel A. This relationship refers to Fig 1L. Based on bootstrapping from this data set, I find a 90% confidence interval of CI=[0.002, 0.527]. That's an uncertainty of -100/+140%, not +/-20%. Moreover, this correlation is due entirely to the lone outlier on the bottom left. Removing that single fly abolishes any correlation in the data (R^2=0.04, p>0.3). With that the correlation of rho=0.64, the second-largest effect in Fig 4, disappears.

      We acknowledge that removal of the outlier in Fig 1L abolishes the correlation between predicted and measured OCT-AIR preference. We have thus moved that subfigure to the supplement (now Figure 1 – figure supplement 10B), note that we do not have robust statistical support of ORN PC1 predicting OCT-AIR preference in the results (lines 177-178), and place our emphasis on PN PC2’s capacity to predict OCT-MCH preference throughout the text.

      (2.2) Similarly with the bottom line of Fig 4A, which relies on Fig 1M. With the data as plotted, the confidence interval on R^2 is CI=[0.007, 0.201], again an uncertainty of -100/+140%. There are two clear outlier points, and if one removes those, the correlation disappears entirely (R^2=0.06, p=0.09).

      We acknowledge that removal of the two outliers in Fig 1M between predicted and measured OCT-AIR preference abolishes the correlation. We have also moved that subfigure to the supplement (now Figure 1 – figure supplement 10F) and do not claim to have robust statistical support of PN PC1 predicting OCT-AIR preference.

      (2.3) Similarly, the correlation R^2_bb of behavior with itself is weak and comes with great uncertainty (Fig 1 Suppl 1, panels B-E). For example, panel D figures prominently in computing the large inferred correlation of 0.75 between PN responses and OCT-MCH choice (Line 171ff). That correlation is weak and has a very wide confidence interval CI=[0.018, 0.329]. This uncertainty about R^2_bb should be taken into account when computing the likelihood of rho.

      We now include bootstrapping of the 3 hour OCT-MCH persistence data in our inference of 𝜌signal.

      (2.4) The correlation R^2_cc for the empirical repeatability of Ca signals seems to be obtained by a different method. Fig 4 suppl 1 focuses on the repeatability of calcium recording at two different time points. But Line 625ff suggests the correlation R^2_cc=0.77 all derives from one time point. It is unclear how these are related.

      Because our calcium model predictors utilize principal components of the glomerulus-odor responses (the mean Δf/f in the odor presentation window), we compute R2c,c through adding variance explained along the PCs, up to the point in which the component-wise variance explained does not exceed that of shuffled data (lines 609-620 in Materials and Methods). In this revision we now bootstrap the calcium data on the level of individual flies to get a bootstrap distribution of R2c,c, and propagate the uncertainty forward in the inference of 𝜌signal.

      (2.5) To summarize, two of the key relationships in Fig 1 are due entirely to one or two outlier points. These should not even be used for further analysis, yet they underlie two of the claims in Fig 4. The other correlations are weak, and come with great uncertainty, as confirmed by resampling. Those uncertainties should be propagated through the inference procedure described in Fig 4. It seems possible that the result will be entirely uninformative, leaving rho with a confidence interval that spans the entire available range [0,1]. Until that analysis is done, the claims of neuron-to-behavior correlation in this manuscript are not convincing.

      It is important to note that we never thought our analysis of the relationship between latent behavior and calcium signals should be interpreted as the main finding. Instead, the observed correlation between measured behavior and calcium is the take-away result. Importantly, it is also conservative compared to the inferred latent relationship, which in our minds was always a “bonus” analysis. Our revisions are now focused on highlighting the correlations between measured signals that have strong statistical support.

      As a response to these specific concerns, we have propagated uncertainty in all R2’s (calcium-calcium, behavior-behavior, calcium-behavior) in our new inference for 𝜌signal, yielding a new median estimate for PN PC 2 underlying OCT-MCH preference of 0.68, with a 90% CI of 0.24-0.95. (Lines 171-172 in results, Inference of correlation between latent calcium and behavior states section in Materials and Methods).

      (3) Other statistical methods:

      (3.1) The caption of Fig 4 refers to "model applied to train+test data". Does that mean the training data were included in the correlation measurement? Depending on the number of degrees of freedom in the model, this could have led to overfitting.

      We have removed Figure 4 and emphasize the key results in Figure 1 and 2 that we see statistically robust signal of PN PC 2 explaining OCT-MCH preference variation in both a training set and a testing set of flies (Fig 2 – figure supplement 1C-D).

      (3.2) Line 180 describes a model that performed twice as well on test data (31% EV) as it did on training data (15%). What would explain such an outcome? And how does that affect one's confidence in the 31% number?

      The test set recordings were conducted several weeks after the training set recordings, which were used to establish PN PC 2 as a correlate of OCT-MCH preference. The fact that the test data had a higher R2 likely reflects sampling error (these two correlation coefficients are not significantly different). Ultimately this gives us more confidence in our model, as the predictive capacity is maintained in a totally separate set of flies.

      (3.340 Multiple models get compared in performance before settling on one. For example, sometimes the first PC is used, sometimes the second. Different weighting schemes appear in Fig 2. Do the quoted p-values for the correlation plots reflect a correction for multiple hypothesis testing?

      For all calcium-behavior models, we restricted our analysis to 5 PCs, as the proportion of calcium variance explained by each of these PCs was higher than that explained by the respective PC of shuffled data — i.e., there were at most five significant PCs in that data. We thus performed at most 5 hypothesis tests for a given model. PN PC 2 explained 15% of OCT-MCH preference variation, with a p-value of 0.0063 – this p-value is robust to a conservative Bonferroni correction to the 5 hypotheses considered at alpha=0.05.

      The weight schemes in Figure 2 and Figure 1 – figure supplement 10 reflect our interpretations of the salient features of the PCs and are follow-up analysis of the single principal component hypothesis tests. Thus they do not constitute additional tests that should be corrected. We now state in the methods explicitly that all reported p-values are nominal (line 563).

      (3.4) Line 165 ff: Quoting rho without giving the confidence interval is misleading. For example, the rho for the presynaptic density model is quoted as 0.51, which would be a sizeable correlation. But in fact, the posterior on rho is almost flat, see caption of Fig 4 suppl 1, which lists the CI as [0.11, 0.85]. That means the experiments place virtually no constraint on rho. If the authors had taken no data at all, the posterior on rho would be uniform, and give a median of 0.5.

      We now provide a confidence interval around 𝜌signal for the PN PC 2 model (lines 170-172). But per above, and consistent with the new focus of this revision, we view the 𝜌signal inference as secondary to the simple, significant correlation between PN PC 2 and OCT-MCH preference.

      (4) As it stands now, this paper illustrates how difficult it is to come to a strong conclusion in this domain. This may be worth some discussion. This group is probably in a better position than any to identify what are the limiting factors for this kind of research.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and have added discussion of the difficulties in detecting signals for this kind of problem. That said, we are confident in stating that there is a meaningful correlation between PC 2 of PN Ca++ responses and OCT-MCH behavior given our model’s performance in predicting preference in a test set of flies, and in the consistent signal in ORN Bruchpilot.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the Authors):

      Two major concerns, one experimental/technical and one conceptual:

      (1) I appreciate the difficulty of the experimental design and problem. However, the correlations reported throughout are based on neural measurements in only 5 glomeruli (~10% of the olfactory system) at early stages of olfactory processing.

      We acknowledge that only imaging 5 glomeruli is regrettable. We worked hard to develop image analysis pipelines that could reliably segment as many glomeruli as possible from almost all individual flies. In the end, we concluded that it was better to focus our analysis on a (small) core set of glomeruli for which we had high confidence in the segmentation. Increasing the number of analyzed glomeruli is high on the list of improvements for subsequent studies. Happily, we are confident that we are capturing a significant, biologically meaningful correlation between PC 2 of PN calcium (dominated by the responses in DC2 and DM2) and OCT-MCH preference.

      3-OCT and MCH activate many glomeruli in addition to the five studied, especially at the concentrations used. There is also limited odor-specificity in their response matrix: notably responses are more correlated in all glomeruli within an individual, compared to responses across individuals (they note this in lines 194-198, though I don't quite understand the specific point they make here). This is a sign of high experimental variability (typically the dynamic range of odor response within an individual is similar to the range across individuals) and makes it even more difficult to resolve underlying individual variation.

      We respectfully disagree with the reviewer’s interpretation here. There is substantial odor-specificity in our response matrix. This is evident in both the ORN and PN response matrices (and especially the PN matrix) as variation in the brightness across rows. Columns, which correspond to individuals, are more similar than rows, which correspond to odor-glomerulus pairs. The dynamic range within an individual (within a column, across rows) is indeed greater than the variation among individuals (within a row, across columns).

      As an (important) aside, the odor stimuli are very unusual in this study. Odors are delivered at extremely high concentrations (variably 10-25% sv, line 464, not exactly sure what "variably' means- is the stimulus intensity not constant?) as compared to even the highest concentrations used in >95% of other studies (usually <~0.1% sv delivered).

      We used these concentrations for a variety of reasons. First, following the protocol of Honegger and Smith (2020), we found that dilutions in this range produce a linear input-output relationship, i.e. doubling or halving one odorant yields proportionate changes in odor-choice behavior metrics. Second, such fold dilutions are standard for tunnel assays of the kind we used. Claridge-Chang et al. (2009) used 14% and 11% for MCH and OCT respectively, for instance. Finally, the specific dilution factor (i.e., within the range of 10-25%) was adjusted on a week-by-week basis to ensure that in an OCT-MCH choice, the mean preference was approximately 50%. This yields the greatest signal of individual odor preference. We have added this last point to the methods section where the range of dilutions is described (lines 442-445).

      A parsimonious interpretation of their results is that the strongest correlation they see (ORN PC1 predicts OCT v. air preference) arises because intensity/strength of ORN responses across all odors (e.g. overall excitability of ORNs) partially predicts behavioral avoidance of 3-OCT. However, the degree to which variation in odor-specific glomerular activation patterns can explain behavioral preference (3-OCT v. MCH) seems much less clear, and correspondingly the correlations are weaker and p-values larger for the 3-OCT v. MCH result.

      With respect, we disagree with this analysis. The correlation between ORN PC 1 and OCT v. air preference (R2 \= 0.23) is quite similar to that of PN PC 2 and OCT vs MCH preference (R2 \= 0.20). However, the former is dependent on a single outlying point, whereas the latter is not. The latter relationship is also backed up by the BRP imaging and modeling. Therefore in the revision we have de-emphasized the OCT v. air preference model and emphasized the OCT v. MCH preference models.

      (2) There is a broader conceptual concern about the degree of logical consistency in the authors' interpretation of how neural variability maps to behavioral variability. For instance, the two odors they focus on, 3-OCT and MCH, barely activate ORNs in 4 of the 5 glomeruli they study. Most of the correlation of ORN PC1 vs. behavioral choice for 3-OCT vs. air, then, must be driven by overall glomerular activation by other odors (but remains predictive since responses across odors appear correlated within an individual). This gives pause to the interpretation that 3-OCT-evoked ORN activity in these five glomeruli is the neural substrate for variability in the behavioral response to 3-OCT.

      Our interpretation of the ORN PC1 linear model is not that 3-OCT-evoked ORN activity is the neural substrate for variability – instead, it is the general responsiveness of an individual’s AL across multiple odors (this is our interpretation of the the uniformly positive loadings in ORN PC1). It is true that OCT and MCH do not activate ORNs as strongly as other odorants – our analysis rests on the loadings of the PCs that capture all odor/glomerulus combinations available in our data. All that said, since a single outlier in Figure 1L dominates the relationship, therefore we have de-emphasized these particular results in our revision.

      This leads to the most significant concern, which is that the paper does not provide strong evidence that odor-specific patterns of glomerular activation in ORNs and PNs underlie individual behavioral preference between different odors (that each drive significant levels of activity, e.g. 3-OCT v. MCH), or that the ORN-PN synapse is a major driver of individual behavioral variability. Lines 26-31 of the abstract are not well supported, and the language should be softened.

      We have modified the abstract to emphasize our confidence in PN calcium correlating with odor-vs-odor preference (removing the ORN & odor-vs-air language).

      Their conclusions come primarily from having correlated many parameters reduced from the ORN and PN response matrices against the behavioral data. Several claims are made that a given PC is predictive of an odor preference while others are not, however it does not appear that the statistical tests to support this are shown in the figures or text.

      For each linear model of calcium dynamics predicting preference, we restricted our analysis to the first 5 principal components. Thus, we do not feel that we correlated many parameters against the behavioral data. As mentioned below, the correlations identified by this approach comfortably survive a conservative Bonferroni correction. In this revision, a linear model with a single predictor – the projection onto PC 2 of PN calcium – is the result we emphasize in the text, and we report R2 between measured and predicted preference for both a training set of flies and for a test set of flies (Figure 1M and Figure 2 – figure supplement 1).

      That is, it appears that the correlation of models based on each component is calculated, then the component with the highest correlation is selected, and a correlation and p-value computed based on that component alone, without a statistical comparison between the predictive values of each component, or to account for effectively performing multiple comparisons. (Figure 1, k l m n o p, Figure 3, d f, and associated analyses).

      To reiterate, this was our process: 1) Collect a training data set of paired Ca++ recordings and behavioral preference scores. 2) Compute the first five PCs of the Ca++ data, and measure the correlation of each to behavior. 3) Identify the PC with the best correlation. 4) Collect a test data set with new experimental recordings. 5) Apply the model identified in step 3. For some downstream analyses, we combined test and training data, but only after confirming the separate significance of the training and test correlations.

      The p-values associated with the PN PC 2 model predicting OCT-MCH preference are sufficiently low in each of the training and testing sets (0.0063 and 0.0069, respectively) to pass a conservative Bonferroni multiple hypothesis correction (one hypothesis for each of the 5 PCs) at an alpha of 0.05.

      Additionally, the statistical model presented in Figure 4 needs significantly more explanation or should be removed- it's unclear how they "infer" the correlation, and the conclusions appears inconsistent with Figure 3 - Figure Supplement 2.

      We have removed Figure 4 and have improved upon our approach of inferring the strength of the correlation between latent calcium and behavior in the Methods, incorporating bootstrapping of all sources of data used for the inference (lines 622-628). At the same time, we now emphasize that this analysis is a bonus of sorts, and that the simple correlation between Ca++ and behavior is the main result.

      Suggestions:

      (1) If the authors want to make the claim that individual variation in ORN or PN odor representations (e.g. glomerular activation patterns) underlie differences in odor preference (MCH v. OCT), they should generalize the weak correlation between ORN/PN activity and behavior to additional glomeruli and pair of odors, where both odors drive significant activity. Otherwise, the claims in the abstract should be tempered.

      We have modified the abstract to focus on the effect we have the highest confidence in: contrasting PN calcium activation of DM2 and DC2 predicting OCT-MCH preference.

      (2) One of the most valuable contributions a study like this could provide is to carefully quantify the amount of measurement variation (across trials, across hemispheres) in neural responses relative to the amount of individual variation (across individuals). Beyond the degree of variation in the amplitude of odor responses, the rank ordering of odor response strength between repeated measurements (to try to establish conditions that account for adaptation, etc.), between hemispheres, and between individuals is important. Establishing this information is foundational to this entire field of study. The authors take a good first step towards this in Figure 1J and Figure 1, supplement 5C, but the plots do not directly show variance, and the comparison is flawed because more comparisons go into the individual-individual crunch (as evidenced by the consistently smaller range of quartiles). The proper way to do this is by resampling.

      We do not know what the reviewer means by “individual-individual crunch,” unfortunately. Thus, it is difficult to determine why they think the analysis is flawed. We are also uncertain about the role of resampling in this analysis. The medians, interquartile ranges and whiskers in the panels referenced by the reviewer are not confidence intervals as might be determined by bootstrap resampling. Rather, these are direct statistics on the coding distances as measured – the raw values associated with these plots are visualized in Figure 1H.

      In our revision we updated the heatmaps in Figure 1 – figure supplement 3 to include recordings across the lobes and trials of each individual fly, and we have added a new supplementary figure, Figure 1 – figure supplement 4, to show the correspondence between recordings across lobes or trials, with associated rank-order correlation coefficients. Since the focus of this study was whether measured individual differences predict individual behavioral preference, a full characterization of the statistics of variation in calcium responses was not the focus, though it was the focus of a previous study (Honegger & Smith et al., 2019).

      To help the reader understand the data, we would encourage displaying data prior to dimensionality reduction - why not show direct plots of the mean and variance of the neural responses in each glomerulus across repeats, hemispheres, individuals?

      We added a new supplementary figure, Figure 1 – figure supplement 4, to show the correspondence between recordings across lobes or trials.

      A careful analysis of this point would allow the authors to support their currently unfounded assertion that odor responses become more "idiosyncratic" farther from the periphery (line 135-36); presumably they mean beyond just noise introduced by synaptic transmission, e.g. "idiosyncrasy" is reproducible within an individual. This is a strong statement that is not well-supported at present - it requires showing the degree of similarity in the representation between hemispheres is more similar within a fly than between flies in PNs compared to ORNs (see Hige... Turner, 2015).

      Here are the lines in question: “PN responses were more variable within flies, as measured across the left and right hemisphere ALs, compared to ORN responses (Figure 1 – figure supplement 5C), consistent with the hypothesis that odor representations become more idiosyncratic farther from the sensory periphery.”

      That responses are more idiosyncratic farther from the periphery is therefore not an “unfounded assertion.” It is clearly laid out as a hypothesis for which we can assess consistency in the data. We stand by our original interpretation: that several observations are consistent with this finding, including greater distance in coding space in PNs compared to ORNs, particularly across lobes and across flies. In addition, higher accuracy in decoding individual identity from PN responses compared to ORN responses (now appearing as Figure 1 – figure supplement 6A) is also consistent with this hypothesis.

      Still, to make confusion at this sentence less likely, we have reworded it as “suggesting that odor representations become more divergent farther from the sensory periphery.” (lines 139-140)

      (3) Figure 3 is difficult to interpret. Again, the variability of the measurement itself within and across individuals is not established up front. Expression of exogenous tagged brp in ORNs is also not guaranteed to reflect endogenous brp levels, so there is an additional assumption at that level.

      Figure 3 – figure supplement 1 Panels A-C display the variability of measurements (Brp volume, total fluorescence and fluorescence density) both within (left/right lobes) and across individuals (the different data points). We agree that exogenous tagged Brp levels will not be identical to endogenous levels. The relationship appears significant despite this caveat.

      Again there are statistical concerns with the correlations. For instance, the claim that "Higher Brp in DM2 predicted stronger MCH preference... " on line 389 is not statistically supported with p<0.05 in the ms (see Figure 3 G as the closest test, but even that is a test of the difference of DM2 and DC2, not DM2 alone).

      We have changed the language to focus on the pattern of the loadings in PC 2 of Brp-Short density and replaced “predict.” (lines 366-369).

      Can the authors also discuss what additional information is gained from the expansion microscopy in the figure supplement, and how it compares to brp density in DC2 using conventional methods?

      The expansion microscopy analysis was an attempt to determine what specific aspect of Brp expression was predictive of behavior, on the level of individual Brp puncta, as a finer look compared to the glomerulus-wide fluorescence signal in the conventional microscopy approach. Since this method did not yield a large sample size, at best we can say it provided evidence consistent with the observation from confocal imaging that Brp fluorescent density was the best measure in terms of predicting behavior.

      I would prefer to see the calcium and behavioral datasets strengthened to better establish the relationship between ORN/PN responses and behavior, and to set aside the anatomical dataset for a future work that investigates mechanisms.

      We are satisfied that our revisions put appropriate emphasis on a robust result relating calcium and behavior measurements: the relationship between OCT-MCH preference and idiosyncratic PN calcium responses. Finding that idiosyncratic Brp density has similar PC 2 loadings that also significantly predict behavior is an important finding that increases confidence in the calcium-behavior finding. We agree with the reviewer that these anatomical findings are secondary to the calcium-behavior analyses, but think they warrant a place in the main findings of the study. As the reviewer suggests, we are conducting follow-on studies that focus on the relationship between neuroanatomical measures and odor preference.

      (4) The mean imputation of missing data may have an effect on the conclusions that it is possible to draw from this dataset. In particular, as shown in Figure 1, supplemental figure 3, there is a relatively large amount of missing data, which is unevenly distributed across glomeruli and between the cell types recorded from. Strikingly, DC2 is missing in a large fraction of ORN recordings, while it is present in nearly all the PN recordings. Because DC2 is one of the glomeruli implicated in predicting MCH-OCT preference, this lack of data may be particularly likely to effect the evaluation of whether this preference can be predicted from the ORN data. Overall, mean imputation of glomerulus activity prior to PCA will artificially reduce the amount of variance contributed by the glomerulus. It would be useful to see an evaluation of which results of this paper are robust to different treatments of this missing data.

      We confirmed that the linear model of predicted OCT-MCH using PN PC2 calcium was minimally altered when we performed imputation via alternating least squares using the pca function with option ‘als’ to infill missing values on the calcium matrix 1000 times and taking the mean infilled matrix (see MATLAB documentation and Figure 1 – figure supplement 5 of Werkhoven et al., 2021). Fitted slope value for model using mean-infilled data presented in article: -0.0806 (SE = 0.028, model R2 \= 0.15), fitted slope value using ALS-imputed model: -0.0806 (SE 0.026, model R2 \= 0.17).

      Additional comments:

      (1) On line 255 there is an unnecessary condition: "non-negative positive".

      Thank you – non-negative has been removed.

      (2) In Figure 4 and the associated analysis, selection of +/- 20% interval around the observed $R^2$ appears arbitrary. This could be based on the actual confidence interval, or established by bootstrapping.

      We have replaced the +/- 20% rule by bootstrapping the calculation of behavior-behavior R2, calcium-calcium R2, and calcium-behavior R2 and propagating the uncertainties forward (Inference of correlation between latent calcium and behavior states section in Materials and Methods).

      (3) On line 409 the claim is made "These sources of variation specifically implicate the ORN-PN synapse..." While the model recapitulates the glomerulus specific variation of activity under PN synapse density variation, it also occurs under ORN identity variation, which calls into question whether the synapse distribution itself is specifically implicated, or if any variation that is expected to be glomerulus specific would be equally implicated.

      We agree with this observation. We found that varying either the ORNs or the PNs that project to each glomeruli can produce patterns of PN response variation similar to what is measured experimentally. This is consistent with the idea that the ORN-PN synapse is a key site of behaviorally-relevant variation.

      (4) Line 214 "... we conclude that the relative responses of DM2 vs DC2 in PNs largely explains an individual's preference." is too strong of a claim, based on the fact that using the PC2 explains much more of the variance, while using the stated hypothesis noticeable decreases the predictive power ($R^2$ = 0.2 vs $R^2$ = 0.12 )

      We have changed the wording here to “we conclude that the relative responses of DM2 vs DC2 in PNs compactly predict an individual’s preference.” (lines 192-193)

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This study attempts to resolve an apparent paradox of rapid evolutionary rates of multi-copy gene systems by using a theoretical model that integrates two classic population models. While the conceptual framework is intuitive and thus useful, the specific model is perplexing and difficult to penetrate for non-specialists. The data analysis of rRNA genes provides inadequate support for the conclusions due to a lack of consideration of technical challenges, mutation rate variation, and the relationship between molecular processes and model parameters.

      Overall Responses:

      Since the eLife assessment succinctly captures the key points of the reviews, the reply here can be seen as the overall responses to the summed criticisms. We believe that the overview should be sufficient to address the main concerns, but further details can be found in the point-by-point responses below. The overview covers the same grounds as the provisional responses (see the end of this rebuttal) but is organized more systematically in response to the reviews. The criticisms together fall into four broad areas. 

      First, the lack of engagement with the literature, particularly concerning Cannings models and non-diffusive limits. This is the main rebuttal of the companion paper (eLife-RP-RA-2024-99990). The literature in question is all in the WF framework and with modifications, in particular, with the introduction of V(K). Nevertheless, all WF models are based on population sampling. The Haldane model is an entirely different model of genetic drift, based on gene transmission. Most importantly, the WF models and the Haldane model differ in the ability to handle the four paradoxes presented in the two papers. These paradoxes are all incompatible with the WF models.

      Second, the poor presentation of the model that makes the analyses and results difficult to interpret. In retrospect, we fully agree and thank all the reviewers for pointing them out. Indeed, we have unnecessarily complicated the model. Even the key concept that defines the paradox, which is the effective copy number of rRNA genes, is difficult to comprehend. We have streamlined the presentation now. Briefly, the complexity arose from the general formulation permitting V(K) ≠ E(K) even for single copy genes. (It would serve the same purpose if we simply let V(K) = E(K) for single copy genes.) The sentences below, copied from the new abstract, should clarify the issue. The full text in the Results section has all the details.

      “On average, rDNAs have C ~ 150 - 300 copies per haploid in humans. While a neutral mutation of a single-copy gene would take 4N generations (N being the population size of an ideal population) to become fixed, the time should be 4NC* generations for rRNA genes (C* being the effective copy number). Note that C* >> 1, but C* < (or >) C would depend on the drift strength. Surprisingly, the observed fixation time in mouse and human is < 4N, implying the paradox of C* < 1.”

      Third, the confusion about which rRNA gene is being compared with which homology, as there are hundreds of them. We should note that the effective copy number C* indicates that the rRNA gene arrays do not correspond with the “gene locus” concept. This is at the heart of the confusion we failed to remove clearly. We now use the term “pseudo-population” to clarify the nature of rDNA variation and evolution. The relevant passage is reproduced from the main text shown below.

      “The pseudo-population of ribosomal DNA copies within each individual

      While a human haploid with 200 rRNA genes may appear to have 200 loci, the concept of "gene loci" cannot be applied to the rRNA gene clusters. This is because DNA sequences can spread from one copy to others on the same chromosome via replication slippage. They can also spread among copies on different chromosomes via gene conversion and unequal crossovers (Nagylaki 1983; Ohta and Dover 1983; Stults, et al. 2008; Smirnov, et al. 2021). Replication slippage and unequal crossovers would also alter the copy number of rRNA genes. These mechanisms will be referred to collectively as the homogenization process. Copies of the cluster on the same chromosome are known to be nearly identical in sequences (Hori, et al. 2021; Nurk, et al. 2022). Previous research has also provided extensive evidence for genetic exchanges between chromosomes (Krystal, et al. 1981; Arnheim, et al. 1982; van Sluis, et al. 2019).

      In short, rRNA gene copies in an individual can be treated as a pseudo-population of gene copies. Such a pseudo-population is not Mendelian but its genetic drift can be analyzed using the branching process (see below). The pseudo-population corresponds to the "chromosome community" proposed recently (Guarracino, et al. 2023). As seen in Fig. 1C, the five short arms harbor a shared pool of rRNA genes that can be exchanged among them. Fig. 1D presents the possible molecular mechanisms of genetic drift within individuals whereby mutations may spread, segregate or disappear among copies. Hence, rRNA gene diversity or polymorphism refers to the variation across all rRNA copies, as these genes exist as paralogs rather than orthologs. This diversity can be assessed at both individual and population levels according to the multi-copy nature of rRNA genes.”

      Fourth, the lack of consideration of many technical challenges. We have responded to the criticisms point-by-point below. One of the main criticisms is about mutation rate differences between single-copy and rRNA genes. We did in fact alluded to the parity in mutation rate between them in the original text but should have presented this property more prominently as is done now. Below is copied from the revised text:

      “We now consider the evolution of rRNA genes between species by analyzing the rate of fixation (or near fixation) of mutations. Polymorphic variants are filtered out in the calculation. Note that Eq. (3) shows that the mutation rate, m, determines the long-term evolutionary rate, l. Since we will compare the l values between rRNA and single-copy genes, we have to compare their mutation rates first by analyzing their long-term evolution. As shown in Table S1, l falls in the range of 50-60 (differences per Kb) for single copy genes and 40 – 70 for the non-functional parts of rRNA genes. The data thus suggest that rRNA and single-copy genes are comparable in mutation rate. Differences between their l values will have to be explained by other means.”

      While the overview should address the key issues, we now present the point-by-point response below. 

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The manuscript by Wang et al is, like its companion paper, very unusual in the opinion of this reviewer. It builds off of the companion theory paper's exploration of the "Wright-Fisher Haldane" model but applies it to the specific problem of diversity in ribosomal RNA arrays.

      The authors argue that polymorphism and divergence among rRNA arrays are inconsistent with neutral evolution, primarily stating that the amount of polymorphism suggests a high effective size and thus a slow fixation rate, while we, in fact, observe relatively fast fixation between species, even in putatively non-functional regions.

      They frame this as a paradox in need of solving, and invoke the WFH model.

      The same critiques apply to this paper as to the presentation of the WFH model and the lack of engagement with the literature, particularly concerning Cannings models and non-diffusive limits. However, I have additional concerns about this manuscript, which I found particularly difficult to follow.

      Response 1: We would like to emphasize that, despite the many modified WF models, there has not been a model for quantifying genetic drift in multi-copy gene systems, due to the complexity of two levels of genetic drift – within individuals as well as between individuals of the population. We will address this question in the revised manuscript (Ruan, et al. 2024) and have included a mention of it in the text as follows:

      “In the WF model, gene frequency is governed by 1/N (or 1/2_N_ in diploids) because K would follow the Poisson distribution whereby V(K) = E(K). As E(K) is generally ~1, V(K) would also be ~ 1. In this backdrop, many "modified WF" models have been developed(Der, et al. 2011), most of them permitting V(K) ≠ E(K) (Karlin and McGregor 1964; Chia and Watterson 1969; Cannings 1974). Nevertheless, paradoxes encountered by the standard WF model apply to these modified WF models as well because all WF models share the key feature of gene sampling (see below and (Ruan, et al. 2024)). ”

      My first, and most major, concern is that I can never tell when the authors are referring to diversity in a single copy of an rRNA gene compared to when they are discussing diversity across the entire array of rRNA genes. I admit that I am not at all an expert in studies of rRNA diversity, so perhaps this is a standard understanding in the field, but in order for this manuscript to be read and understood by a larger number of people, these issues must be clarified.

      Response 2: We appreciate the reviewer’s feedback and acknowledge that the distinction between the diversity of individual rRNA gene copies and the diversity across the entire array of rRNA genes may not have been clearly defined in the original manuscript. The diversity in our manuscript is referring to the genetic diversity of the population of rRNA genes in the cell. To address this concern, we have revised the relevant paragraph in the text:

      “Hence, rRNA gene diversity or polymorphism refer to the variation across all rRNA copies, as these genes exist as paralogs rather than orthologs. This diversity can be assessed at both individual and population levels according to the multi-copy nature of rRNA genes.”

      Additionally, we have updated the Methods section to include a detailed description of how diversity is measured as follows:

      “All mapping and analysis are performed among individual copies of rRNA genes.

      Each individual was considered as a psedo-population of rRNA genes and the diversity of rRNA genes was calculated using this psedo-population of rRNA genes.”

      The authors frame the number of rRNA genes as roughly equivalent to expanding the population size, but this seems to be wrong: the way that a mutation can spread among rRNA gene copies is fundamentally different than how mutations spread within a single copy gene. In particular, a mutation in a single copy gene can spread through vertical transmission, but a mutation spreading from one copy to another is fundamentally horizontal: it has to occur because some molecular mechanism, such as slippage, gene conversion, or recombination resulted in its spread to another copy. Moreover, by collapsing diversity across genes in an rRNA array, the authors are massively increasing the mutational target size.   

      For example, it's difficult for me to tell if the discussion of heterozygosity at rRNA genes in mice starting on line 277 is collapsed or not. The authors point out that Hs per kb is ~5x larger in rRNA than the rest of the genome, but I can't tell based on the authors' description if this is diversity per single copy locus or after collapsing loci together. If it's the first one, I have concerns about diversity estimation in highly repetitive regions that would need to be addressed, and if it's the second one, an elevated rate of polymorphism is not surprising, because the mutational target size is in fact significantly larger.

      Response 3: As addressed in previous Response2, the measurement of diversity or heterozygosity of rRNA genes is consistently done by combining copies, as there is no concept of single gene locus for rDNAs. We agree that by combining the diversity across multiple rRNA gene copies into one measurement, the mutational target size is effectively increased, leading to higher observed levels of diversity than one gene. This is in line with our text:

      “If we use the polymorphism data, it is as if rDNA array has a population size 5.2 times larger than single-copy genes. Although the actual copy number on each haploid is ~ 110, these copies do not segregate like single-copy genes and we should not expect N* to be 100 times larger than N. The HS results confirm the prediction that rRNA genes should be more polymorphic than single-copy genes.”

      Under this consensus, the reviewer points out that the having a large number of rRNA genes is not equivalent to having a larger population size, because the spreading of mutations among rDNA copies within a species involves two stages: within individual (horizontal transmission) and between individuals (vertical transmission). Let’s examine how the mutation spreading mechanisms influence the population size of rRNA genes.

      First, an increase in the copy number of rRNA genes dose increase the actual population size (CN) of rRNA genes. If reviewer is referring to the effective population size of rRNA genes in the context of diversity (N* = CN/V*(K)), then an increase in C would also increase N*. In addition, the linkage among copies would reduce the drift effect, leading to increase diversity. Conversely, homogenization mechanism, like gene conversion and unequal crossing-over would reduce genetic variations between copies and increase V*(K), leading to lower diversity. Therefore, the C* =C/V*(K) in mice is about 5 times larger for rRNA genes than the rest of the genome (which mainly single-copy genes), even though the actual copy number is about 110, indicating a high homogenization rate.

      Even if these issues were sorted out, I'm not sure that the authors framing, in terms of variance in reproductive success is a useful way to understand what is going on in rRNA arrays. The authors explicitly highlight homogenizing forces such as gene conversion and replication slippage but then seem to just want to incorporate those as accounting for variance in reproductive success. However, don't we usually want to dissect these things in terms of their underlying mechanism? Why build a model based on variance in reproductive success when you could instead explicitly model these homogenizing processes? That seems more informative about the mechanism, and it would also serve significantly better as a null model, since the parameters would be able to be related to in vitro or in vivo measurements of the rates of slippage, gene conversion, etc.

      In the end, I find the paper in its current state somewhat difficult to review in more detail, because I have a hard time understanding some of the more technical aspects of the manuscript while so confused about high-level features of the manuscript. I think that a revision would need to be substantially clarified in the ways I highlighted above.

      Response 4: We appreciate your perspective on modeling the homogenizing processes of rRNA gene arrays.

      We employ the WFH model to track the drift effect of the multi-copy gene system. In the context of the Haldane model, the term K is often referred to as reproductive success, but it might be more accurate to interpret it as “transmission rate” in this study. As stated in the caption of Figure 1D, two new mutations can have very large differences in individual output (K) when transmitted to the next generation through homogenization process.

      Regarding why we did not explicitly model different mechanisms of homogenization, previous elegant models of multigene families have involved mechanisms like unequal crossing over(Smith 1974a; Ohta 1976; Smith 1976) or gene conversion (Nagylaki 1983; Ohta 1985) for concerted evolution, or using conversion to approximate the joint effect of conversion and crossing over (Ohta and Dover 1984). However, even when simplifying the gene conversion mechanism, modeling remains challenging due to controversial assumptions, such as uniform homogenization rate across all gene members (Dover 1982; Ohta and Dover 1984). No models can fully capture the extreme complexity of factors, while these unbiased mechanisms are all genetic drift forces that contribute to changes in mutant transmission. Therefore, we opted for a more simplified and collective approach using V*(K) to see the overall strength of genetic drift.

      We have discussed the reason for using V*(K) to collectively represent the homogenization effect in Discussion. As stated in our manuscript:

      “There have been many rigorous analyses that confront the homogenizing mechanisms directly. These studies (Smith 1974b; Ohta 1976; Dover 1982; Nagylaki 1983; Ohta and Dover 1983) modeled gene conversion and unequal cross-over head on. Unfortunately, on top of the complexities of such models, the key parameter values are rarely obtainable. In the branching process, all these complexities are wrapped into V*(K) for formulating the evolutionary rate. In such a formulation, the collective strength of these various forces may indeed be measurable, as shown in this study.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Multi-copy gene systems are expected to evolve slower than single-copy gene systems because it takes longer for genetic variants to fix in the large number of gene copies in the entire population. Paradoxically, their evolution is often observed to be surprisingly fast. To explain this paradox, the authors hypothesize that the rapid evolution of multi-copy gene systems arises from stronger genetic drift driven by homogenizing forces within individuals, such as gene conversion, unequal crossover, and replication slippage. They formulate this idea by combining the advantages of two classic population genetic models -- adding the V(k) term (which is the variance in reproductive success) in the Haldane model to the Wright-Fisher model. Using this model, the authors derived the strength of genetic drift (i.e., reciprocal of the effective population size, Ne) for the multi-copy gene system and compared it to that of the single-copy system. The theory was then applied to empirical genetic polymorphism and divergence data in rodents and great apes, relying on comparison between rRNA genes and genome-wide patterns (which mostly are single-copy genes). Based on this analysis, the authors concluded that neutral genetic drift could explain the rRNA diversity and evolution patterns in mice but not in humans and chimpanzees, pointing to a positive selection of rRNA variants in great apes.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the new WFH model is an interesting idea. It is intuitive, efficient, and versatile in various scenarios, including the multi-copy gene system and other cases discussed in the companion paper by Ruan et al.

      Weaknesses:

      Despite being intuitive at a high level, the model is a little unclear, as several terms in the main text were not clearly defined and connections between model parameters and biological mechanisms are missing. Most importantly, the data analysis of rRNA genes is extremely over-simplified and does not adequately consider biological and technical factors that are not discussed in the model. Even if these factors are ignored, the authors' interpretation of several observations is unconvincing, as alternative scenarios can lead to similar patterns. Consequently, the conclusions regarding rRNA genes are poorly supported. Overall, I think this paper shines more in the model than the data analysis, and the modeling part would be better presented as a section of the companion theory paper rather than a stand-alone paper. My specific concerns are outlined below.

      Response 5: We appreciate the reviewer’s feedback and recognize the need for clearer definitions of key terms. We have made revisions to ensure that each term is properly defined upon its first use.

      Regarding the model’s simplicity, as in the Response4, our intention was to create a framework that captures the essence of how mutant copies spread by chance within a population, relying on the variance in transmission rates for each copy (V(K)). By doing so, we aimed to incorporate the various homogenization mechanisms that do not affect single-copy genes, highlighting the substantially stronger genetic drift observed in multi-copy systems compared to single-copy genes. We believe that simplifying the model was necessary to make it more accessible and practical for real-world data analysis and provides a useful approximation that can be applied broadly. It is clearly an underestimate the actual rate as some forces with canceling effects might not have been accounted for.

      (1) Unclear definition of terms

      Many of the terms in the model or the main text were not clearly defined the first time they occurred, which hindered understanding of the model and observations reported. To name a few:

      (i) In Eq(1), although C* is defined as the "effective copy number", it is unclear what it means in an empirical sense. For example, Ne could be interpreted as "an ideal WF population with this size would have the same level of genetic diversity as the population of interest" or "the reciprocal of strength of allele frequency change in a unit of time". A few factors were provided that could affect C*, but specifically, how do these factors impact C*? For example, does increased replication slippage increase or decrease C*? How about gene conversion or unequal cross-over? If we don't even have a qualitative understanding of how these processes influence C*, it is very hard to make interpretations based on inferred C*. How to interpret the claim on lines 240-241 (If the homogenization is powerful enough, rRNA genes would have C*<1)? Please also clarify what C* would be, in a single-copy gene system in diploid species.

      Response 6: We apology for the confusion caused by the lack of clear definitions in the initial manuscript. We recognize that this has led to misunderstandings regarding the concept we presented. Our aim was to demonstrate the concerted evolution in multi-copy gene systems, involving two levels of “effective copy number” relative to single-copy genes: first, homogenization within populations then divergence between species. We used C* and Ne* to try to designated the two levels driven by the same homogenization force, which complicated the evolutionary pattern.

      To address these issues, we have simplified the model and revised the abstract to prevent any misunderstandings:

      “On average, rDNAs have C ~ 150 - 300 copies per haploid in humans. While a neutral mutation of a single-copy gene would take 4_N_ (N being the population size) generations to become fixed, the time should be 4_NC* generations for rRNA genes where 1<< C* (C* being the effective copy number; C* < C or C* > C would depend on the drift strength). However, the observed fixation time in mouse and human is < 4_N, implying the paradox of C* < 1. Genetic drift that encompasses all random neutral evolutionary forces appears as much as 100 times stronger for rRNA genes as for single-copy genes, thus reducing C* to < 1.”

      Thus, it should be clear that the fixation time as well as the level of polymorphism represent the empirical measures of C*.We have also revised the relevant paragraph in the text to define C* and V*(K) and removed Eq. 2 for clarity:

      “Below, we compare the strength of genetic drift in rRNA genes vs. that of single-copy genes using the Haldane model (Ruan, et al. 2024). We shall use * to designate the equivalent symbols for rRNA genes; for example, E(K) vs. E*(K). Both are set to 1, such that the total number of copies in the long run remains constant.

      For simplicity, we let V(K) = 1 for single-copy genes. (If we permit V(K) ≠ 1, the analyses will involve the ratio of V*(K) and V(K) to reach the same conclusion but with unnecessary complexities.) For rRNA genes,  V*(K) ≥ 1 may generally be true because K for rDNA mutations are affected by a host of homogenization factors including replication slippage, unequal cross-over, gene conversion and other related mechanisms not operating on single copy genes. Hence,

      where C is the average number of rRNA genes in an individual and V*(K) reflects the homogenization process on rRNA genes (Fig. 1D). Thus,

      C* = C/V*(K)

      represents the effective copy number of rRNA genes in the population, determining the level of genetic diversity relative to single-copy genes. Since C is in the hundreds and V*(K) is expected to be > 1, the relationship of 1 << C* ≤ C is hypothesized. Fig. 1D is a simple illustration that the homogenizing process may enhance V*(K) substantially over the WF model.

      In short, genetic drift of rRNA genes would be equivalent to single copy genes in a population of size NC* (or N*). Since C* >> 1 is hypothesized, genetic drift for rRNA genes is expected to be slower than for single copy genes.”

      (ii) In Eq(1), what exactly is V*(K)? Variance in reproductive success across all gene copies in the population? What factors affect V*(K)? For the same population, what is the possible range of V*(K)/V(K)? Is it somewhat bounded because of biological constraints? Are V*(K) and C*(K) independent parameters, or does one affect the other, or are both affected by an overlapping set of factors?

      Response 7: - In Eq(1), what exactly is V*(K)?  In Eq(1), V*(K) refers to the variance in the number of progeny to whom the gene copy of interest is transmitted (K) over a specific time interval. When considering evolutionary divergence between species, V*(K) may correspond to the divergence time.

      - What factors affect V*(K)? For the same population, what is the possible range of V*(K)/V(K)? Is it somewhat bounded because of biological constraints?  “V*(K) for rRNA genes is likely to be much larger than V(K) for single-copy genes, because K for rRNA mutations may be affected by a host of homogenization factors including replication slippage, unequal cross-over, gene conversion and other related mechanisms not operating on single-copy genes. For simplicity, we let V(K) = 1 (as in a WF population) and V*(K) ≥ 1.” Thus, the V*(K)/V(K) = V*(K) can potentially reach values in the hundreds, and may even exceed C, resulting in C*(= C/V*(K)) values less than 1. Biological constraints that could limit this variance include the minimum copy number within individuals, sequence constraints in functional regions, and the susceptibility of chromosomes with large arrays to intrachromosomal crossover (which may lead to a reduction in copy number)(Eickbush and Eickbush 2007), potentially reducing the variability of K.

      - Are V*(K) and C*(K) independent parameters, or does one affect the other, or are both affected by an overlapping set of factors?  There is no C*(K), the C* is defined as follows in the text:

      “C* = C/V*(K) represents the effective copy number of rRNA genes, reflecting the level of genetic diversity relative to single-copy genes. Since C is in the hundreds and V*(K) is expected to be > 1, the relationship of 1 << C* ≤ C is hypothesized.” The factors influencing V*(K) directly affect C* due to this relationship.

      (iii) In the multi-copy gene system, how is fixation defined? A variant found at the same position in all copies of the rRNA genes in the entire population?

      Response 8: We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion and have now provided a clear definition of fixation in the context of multi-copy genes within the manuscript.

      “For rDNA mutations, fixation must occur in two stages – fixation within individuals and among individuals in the population. (Note that a new mutation can be fixed via homogenization, thus making rRNA gene copies in an individual a pseudo-population.)”

      The evolutionary dynamics of multi-copy genes differ from those of single-copy (Mendelian) genes, which mutate, segregate and evolve independently in the population. Fixation in multi-copy genes, such as rRNA genes, is influenced by their ability to transfer genetic information among their copies through nonreciprocal exchange mechanisms, like gene conversion and unequal crossover (Ohta and Dover 1984). These processes can cause fluctuations in the number of mutant copies within an individual's lifetime and facilitate the spread of a mutant allele across all copies even in non-homologous chromosomes. Over time, this can result in the mutant allele replacing all preexisting alleles throughout the population, leading to fixation (Ohta 1976) meaning that the same variant will eventually be present at the corresponding position in all copies of the rRNA genes across the entire population. Without such homogenization processes, fixation would be unlikely to be obtained in multi-copy genes.

      (iv) Lines 199-201, HI, Hs, and HT are not defined in the context of a multi-copy gene system. What are the empirical estimators?

      Response 9: We appreciate the reviewer's comment and would like to clarify the definitions and empirical estimators for within the context of a multi-copy gene system in the text:

      “A standard measure of genetic drift is the level of heterozygosity (H). At the mutation-selection equilibrium

      where μ is the mutation rate of the entire gene and Ne is the effective population size. In this study, Ne = N for single-copy gene and Ne = C*N for rRNA genes. The empirical measure of nucleotide diversity H is given by

      where L is the gene length (for each copy of rRNA gene, L ~ 43kb) and pi is the variant frequency at the i-th site.

      We calculate H of rRNA genes at three levels – within-individual, within-species and then, within total samples (HI, HS and HT, respectively). HS and HT are standard population genetic measures (Hartl, et al. 1997; Crow and Kimura 2009). In calculating HS, all sequences in the species are used, regardless of the source individuals. A similar procedure is applied to HT. The HI statistic is adopted for multi-copy gene systems for measuring within-individual polymorphism. Note that copies within each individual are treated as a pseudo-population (see Fig. 1 and text above). With multiple individuals, HI is averaged over them.”

      (v) Line 392-393, f and g are not clearly defined. What does "the proportion of AT-to-GC conversion" mean? What are the numerator and denominator of the fraction, respectively?

      Response 10: We appreciate the reviewer's comment and have revised the relevant text for clarity as well as improved the specific calculation methods for f and g in the Methods section.

      “We first designate the proportion of AT-to-GC conversion as f and the reciprocal, GC-to-AT, as g. Specifically, f represents the proportion of fixed mutations where an A or T nucleotide has been converted to a G or C nucleotide (see Methods). Given f ≠ g, this bias is true at the site level.”

      Methods:

      “Specifically, f represents the proportion of fixed mutations where an A or T nucleotide has been converted to a G or C nucleotide. The numerator for f is the number of fixed mutations from A-to-G, T-to-C, T-to-G, or A-to-C. The denominator is the total number of A or T sites in the rDNA sequence of the specie lineage.

      Similarly, g is defined as the proportion of fixed mutations where a G or C nucleotide has been converted to an A or T nucleotide. The numerator for g is the number of fixed mutations from G-to-A, C-to-T, C-to-A, or G-to-T. The denominator is the total number of G or C sites in the rDNA sequence of the specie lineage.

      The consensus rDNA sequences for the species lineage were generated by Samtools consensus (Danecek, et al. 2021) from the bam file after alignment. The following command was used:

      ‘samtools consensus -@ 20 -a -d 10 --show-ins no --show-del yes input_sorted.bam output.fa’.”

      (2) Technical concerns with rRNA gene data quality

      Given the highly repetitive nature and rapid evolution of rRNA genes, myriads of things could go wrong with read alignment and variant calling, raising great concerns regarding the data quality. The data source and methods used for calling variants were insufficiently described at places, further exacerbating the concern.

      (i) What are the accession numbers or sample IDs of the high-coverage WGS data of humans, chimpanzees, and gorillas from NCBI? How many individuals are in each species? These details are necessary to ensure reproducibility and correct interpretation of the results.

      Response 11: We apologize for not including the specific details of the sample information in the main text. All accession numbers and sample IDs for the WGS data used in this study, including mice, humans, chimpanzee, and gorilla, are already listed in Supplementary Tables S4-S5. We have revised the table captions and referenced them at the appropriate points in the Methods to ensure clarity.

      “The genome sequences of human (n = 8), chimpanzee (n = 1) and gorilla (n = 1) were sourced from National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) (Supplementary Table 4). … Genomic sequences of mice (n = 13) were sourced from the Wellcome Sanger Institute’s Mouse Genome Project (MGP) (Keane, et al. 2011).

      The concern regarding the number of individuals needed to support the results will be addressed in Response 13.

      (ii) Sequencing reads from great apes and mice were mapped against the human and mouse rDNA reference sequences, respectively (lines 485-486). Given the rapid evolution of rRNA genes, even individuals within the same species differ in copy number and sequences of these genes. Alignment to a single reference genome would likely lead to incorrect and even failed alignment for some reads, resulting in genotyping errors. Differences in rDNA sequence, copy number, and structure are even greater between species, potentially leading to higher error rates in the called variants. Yet the authors provided no justification for the practice of aligning reads from multiple species to a single reference genome nor evidence that misalignment and incorrect variant calling are not major concerns for the downstream analysis.

      Response 12: While the copy number of rDNA varies in each individuals, the sequence identity among copies is typically very high (median identity of 98.7% (Nurk, et al. 2022)). Therefore, all rRNA genes were aligned against to the species-specific reference sequences, where the consensus nucleotide nearly accounts for >90% of the gene copies in the population. In minimize genotyping errors, our analysis focused exclusively on single nucleotide variants (SNVs) with only two alleles, discarding other mutation types.

      Regarding sequence divergence between species, which may have greater sequence variations, we excluded unmapped regions with high-quality reads coverage below 10. In calculation of substitution rate, we accounted for the mapping length (L), as shown in the column 3 in Table 3-5.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments and have provide details in the Methods.

      (vi) It is unclear how variant frequency within an individual was defined conceptually or computed from data (lines 499-501). The population-level variant frequency was calculated by averaging across individuals, but why was the averaging not weighted by the copy number of rRNA genes each individual carries? How many individuals are sampled for each species? Are the sample sizes sufficient to provide an accurate estimate of population frequencies?

      Response 13: Each individual was considered as a psedo-population of rRNA genes, varaint frequency within an individual was the proportions of mutant allele in this psedo-population. The calculation of varaint frequency is based on the number of supported reads of each individual.

      The reason for calculating population-level variant frequency by averaging across individuals is relevant in the calculation of FIS and FST. In calculating FST, the standard practice is to weigh each population equally. So, when we show FST in humans, we do not consider whether there are more Africans, Caucasians or Asians. There is a reason for not weighing them even though the population sizes could be orders of magnitude different, say, in the comparison between an ethnic minority and the main population. In the case of FIS, the issue is moot. Although copy number may range from 150 to 400 per haploid, most people have 300 – 500 copies with two haploids.

      As for the concern regarding the number the individuals needed to support of the results:

      Considering the nature of multi-copy genes, where gene members undergo continuous exchanges at a much slower rate compared to the rapid rate of random distribution of chromosomes at each generation of sexual reproduction, even a few variant copies that arise during an individual's lifetime would disperse into the gene pool in the next generation (Ohta and Dover 1984). Thus, there is minimal difference between individuals. Our analysis is also aligns with this theory, particularly in human population (FIS = 0.059), where each individual carries the majority of the population's genetic diversity. Therefore, even a single chimpanzee or gorilla individual caries sufficient diversity with its hundreds of gene copies to calculate divergence with humans.

      (vii) Fixed variants are operationally defined as those with a frequency>0.8 in one species. What is the justification for this choice of threshold? Without knowing the exact sample size of the various species, it's difficult to assess whether this threshold is appropriate.

      Response 14: First, the mutation frequency distribution is strongly bimodal (see Figure below) with a peak at zero and the other at 1. This high frequency peak starts to rise slowly at 0.8, similar to FST distribution in Figure 4C. That is why we use it as the cutoff although we would get similar results at the cutoff of 0.90 (see Table below). Second, the sample size for the calculation of mutant frequency is based on the number of reads which is usually in the tens of thousands. Third, it does not matter if the mutation frequency calculation is based on one individuals or multiple individuals because 95% of the genetic diversity of the population is captured by the gene pool within each individual.

      Author response image 1.

      Author response table 1.

      The A/T to G/C and G/C to A/T changes in apes and mouse.

      New mutants with a frequency >0.9 within an individual are considered as (nearly) fixed, except for humans, where the frequency was averaged over 8 individuals in the Table 2.

      The X-squared values for each species are as follows: 58.303 for human, 7.9292 for chimpanzee, and 0.85385 for M. m. domesticus.

      (viii) It is not explained exactly how FIS, FST, and divergence levels of rRNA genes were calculated from variant frequency at individual and species levels. Formulae need to be provided to explain the computation.

      Response 15: After we clearly defined the HI, HS, and HT in Response9, understanding FIS and F_ST_ becomes straightforward.

      “Given the three levels of heterozygosity, there are two levels of differentiation. First, FIS is the differentiation among individuals within the species, defined by

      FIS = [HS - HI]/HS  

      FIS is hence the proportion of genetic diversity in the species that is found only between individuals. We will later show FIS ~ 0.05 in human rDNA (Table 2), meaning 95% of rDNA diversity is found within individuals.

      Second, FST is the differentiation between species within the total species complex, defined as

      FST = [HT – HS]/HT 

      FST is the proportion of genetic diversity in the total data that is found only between species.”

      (3) Complete ignorance of the difference in mutation rate difference between rRNA genes and genome-wide average

      Nearly all data analysis in this paper relied on comparison between rRNA genes with the rest (presumably single-copy part) of the genome. However, mutation rate, a key parameter determining the diversity and divergence levels, was completely ignored in the comparison. It is well known that mutation rate differs tremendously along the genome, with both fine and large-scale variation. If the mutation rate of rRNA genes differs substantially from the genome average, it would invalidate almost all of the analysis results. Yet no discussion or justification was provided.

      Response 16: We appreciate the reviewer's observation regarding the potential impact of varying mutation rates across the genome. To address this concern, we compared the long-term substitution rates on rDNA and single-copy genes between human and rhesus macaque, which diverged approximately 25 million years ago. Our analysis (see Table S1 below) indicates that the substitution rate in rDNA is actually slower than the genome-wide average. This finding suggests that rRNA genes do not experience a higher mutation rate compared to single-copy genes, as stated in the text:

      “Note that Eq. (3) shows that the mutation rate, m, determines the long-term evolutionary rate, l. Since we will compare the l values between rRNA and single-copy genes, we have to compare their mutation rates first by analyzing their long-term evolution. As shown in Table S1, l falls in the range of 50-60 (differences per Kb) for single copy genes and 40 – 70 for the non-functional parts of rRNA genes. The data thus suggest that rRNA and single-copy genes are comparable in mutation rate. Differences between their l values will have to be explained by other means.”

      However, given the divergence time (Td) being equal to or smaller than Tf, even if the mutation rate per nucleotide is substantially higher in rRNA genes, these variants would not become fixed after the divergence of humans and chimpanzees without the help of strong homogenization forces. Thus, the presence of divergence sites (Table 5) still supports the conclusion that rRNA genes undergo much stronger genetic drift compared to single-copy genes.

      Related to mutation rate: given the hypermutability of CpG sites, it is surprising that the evolution/fixation rate of rRNA estimated with or without CpG sites is so close (2.24% vs 2.27%). Given the 10 - 20-fold higher mutation rate at CpG sites in the human genome, and 2% CpG density (which is probably an under-estimate for rDNA), we expect the former to be at least 20% higher than the latter.

      Response 17: While it is true that CpG sites exhibit a 10-20-fold higher mutation rate, the close evolution/fixation rates of rDNA with and without CpG sites (2.24% vs 2.27%) may be attributed to the fact that fixation rates during short-term evolutionary processes are less influenced by mutation rates alone. As observed in the Human-Macaque comparison in the table above, the substitution rate of rDNA in non-functional regions with CpG sites is 4.18%, while it is 3.35% without CpG sites, aligning with your expectation of 25% higher rates where CpG sites are involved.

      This discrepancy between the expected and observed fixation rates may be due to strong homogenization forces, which can rapidly fix or eliminate variants, thereby reducing the overall impact of higher mutation rates at CpG sites on the observed fixation rate. This suggests that the homogenization mechanisms play a more dominant role in the fixation process over short evolutionary timescales, mitigating the expected increase in fixation rates due to CpG hypermutability.

      Among the weaknesses above, concern (1) can be addressed with clarification, but concerns (2) and (3) invalidate almost all findings from the data analysis and cannot be easily alleviated with a complete revamp work.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor Comments:

      Both reviewers found the manuscript confusing and raised serious concerns. They pointed out a lack of engagement with previous literature on modeling and the presence of ill-defined terms within the model, which obscure understanding. They also noted a significant disconnection between the modeling approach and the biological processes involved. Additionally, the data analysis was deemed problematic due to the failure to consider essential biological and technical factors. One reviewer suggested that the modeling component would be more suitable as a section of the companion theory paper rather than a standalone paper. Please see their individual reviews for their overall assessment.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Beyond my major concerns, I have numerous questions about the interpretation of various findings:

      Lines 62-63: Please explain under what circumstance Ne=N/V(K) is biologically nonsensical and why.

      Response 18: “Biologically non-sensical” is the term used in (Chen, et al. 2017). We now used the term “biologically untenable” but the message is the same. How does one get V(K) ≠ E(K) in the WF sampling? It is untenable under the WF structure. Kimura may be the first one to introduce V(K) ≠ E(K) into the WF model and subsequent papers use the same sort of modifications that are mathematically valid but biologically dubious. As explained extensively in the companion paper, the modifications add complexities but do not give the WF models powers to explain the paradoxes.

      Lines 231-234: The claim about a lower molecular evolution rate (lambda) is inaccurate - under neutrality, the molecular evolution rate is always the same as the mutation rate. It is true that when the species divergence Td is not much greater than fixation time Tf, the observed number of fixed differences would be substantially smaller than 2*mu*Td, but the lower divergence level does not mean that the molecular evolution is slower. In other words, in calculating the divergence level, it is the time term that needs to be adjusted rather than the molecular evolution rate.

      Response 19: Thanks, we agree that the original wording was not accurate. It is indeed the substitution rate rather than the molecular evolution rate that is affected when species divergence time Td is not much greater than the fixation time Tf. We have revised the relevant text in the manuscript to correct this and ensure clarity.

      Lines 277-279: Hs for rRNA is 5.2x fold than the genome average. This could be roughly translated as Ne*/Ne=5.2. According to Eq 2: (1/Ne*)/(1/Ne)= Vh/C*, it can be drived that mean Ne*/Ne=C*/Vh. Then why do the authors conclude "C*=N*/N~5.2" in line 278? Wouldn't it mean that C*/Vh is roughly 5.2?

      Response 20: We apologize for the confusion. To prevent misunderstandings, we have revised Equation 1 and deleted Equation 2 from the manuscript. Please refer to the Response6 for further details.

      Lines 291-292: What does "a major role of stage I evolution" mean? How does it lead to lower FIS?

      Response 21: We apologize for the lack of clarity in our original description, and we have revised the relevant content to make them more directly.

      “In this study, we focus on multi-copy gene systems, where the evolution takes place in two stages: both within (stage I) and between individuals (stage II).”

      FIS for rDNA among 8 human individuals is 0.059 (Table 2), much smaller than 0.142 in M. m. domesticus mice, indicating minimal genetic differences across human individuals and high level of genetic identity in rDNAs between homologous chromosomes among human population. … Correlation of polymorphic sites in IGS region is shown in Supplementary Fig. 1. The results suggest that the genetic drift due to the sampling of chromosomes during sexual reproduction (e.g., segregation and assortment) is augmented substantially by the effects of homogenization process within individual. Like those in mice, the pattern indicates that intra-species polymorphism is mainly preserved within individuals.”

      Line 297-300: why does the concentration at very allele frequency indicate rapid homogenization across copies? Suppose there is no inter-copy homogenization, and each copy evolves independently, wouldn't we still expect the SFS to be strongly skewed towards rare variants? It is completely unclear how homogenization processes are expected to affect the SFS.

      Response 22: We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments and apologize for any confusion in our original explanation. To clarify:

      If there is no inter-copy homogenization and each copy evolves independently, it would effectively result in an equivalent population size that is C times larger than that of single-copy genes. However, given the copies are distributed on five chromosomes, if the copies within a chromosome were fully linked, there would be no fixation at any sites. Considering the data presented in Table 4, where the substitution rate in rDNA is higher than in single-copy genes, this suggests that additional forces must be acting to homogenize the copies, even across non-homologous chromosomes.

      Regarding the specific data presented in the Figure 3, the allele frequency spectrum is based on human polymorphism sites and is a folded spectrum, as the ancestral state of the alleles was not determined. High levels of homogenization would typically push variant mutations toward the extremes of the SFS, leading to fewer intermediate-frequency alleles and reduced heterozygosity. The statement that "allele frequency spectrum is highly concentrated at very low frequency within individuals" was intended to emphasize the localized distribution of variants and the high identity at each site. However, we recognize that it does not accurately reflect the role of homogenization and this conclusion cannot be directly inferred from the figure as presented. Therefore, we have removed the sentence in the text.

      The evidence of gBGC in rRNA genes in great apes does not help explain the observed accelerated evolution of rDNA relative to the rest of the genome. Evidence of gBGC has been clearly demonstrated in a variety of species, including mice. It affects not only rRNA genes but also most parts of the genome, particularly regions with high recombination rates. In addition, gBGC increases the fixation probability of W>S mutations but suppresses the fixation of S>W mutations, so it is not obvious how gBGC will increase or decrease the molecular evolution rate overall.

      Response 23: We have thoroughly rewritten the last section of Results. The earlier writing has misplaced the emphasis, raising many questions (as stated above). To answer them, we would have to present a new set of equations thus adding unnecessary complexities to the paper. Here is the streamlined and more logical flow of the new section.

      First, Tables 4 and 5 have shown the accelerated evolution of the rRNA genes. We have now shown that rRNA genes do not have higher mutation rates. Below is copied from the revised text:

      “We now consider the evolution of rRNA genes between species by analyzing the rate of fixation (or near fixation) of mutations. Polymorphic variants are filtered out in the calculation. Note that Eq. (3) shows that the mutation rate, m, determines the long-term evolutionary rate, l. Since we will compare the l values between rRNA and single-copy genes, we have to compare their mutation rates first by analyzing their long-term evolution. As shown in Table S1 l falls in the range of 50-60 (differences per Kb) for single copy genes and 40 – 70 for the non-functional parts of rRNA genes. The data thus suggest that rRNA and single-copy genes are comparable in mutation rate. Differences between their l values will have to be explained by other means.”

      Second, we have shown that the accelerated evolution in mice is likely due to genetic drift, resulting in faster fixation of neutral variants. We also show that this is unlikely to be true in humans and chimpanzees; hence selection is the only possible explanation. The section below is copied from the revised text. It shows the different patterns of gene conversions between mice and apes, in agreement with the results of Tables 4 and 5. In essence, it shows that the GC ratio in apes is shifting to a new equilibrium, which is equivalent to a new adaptive peak. Selection is driving the rDNA genes to move to the new adaptive peak.

      Revision - “Thus, the much accelerated evolution of rRNA genes between humans and chimpanzees cannot be entirely attributed to genetic drift. In the next and last section, we will test if selection is operating on rRNA genes by examining the pattern of gene conversion. 

      3) Positive selection for rRNA mutations in apes, but not in mice – Evidence from gene conversion patterns

      For gene conversion, we examine the patterns of AT-to-GC vs. GC-to-AT changes. While it has been reported that gene conversion would favor AT-to-GC over GC-to-AT conversion (Jeffreys and Neumann 2002; Meunier and Duret 2004) at the site level, we are interested at the gene level by summing up all conversions across sites. We designate the proportion of AT-to-GC conversion as f and the reciprocal, GC-to-AT, as g. Both f and g represent the proportion of fixed mutations between species (see Methods). So defined, f and g are influenced by the molecular mechanisms as well as natural selection. The latter may favor a higher or lower GC ratio at the genic level between species. As the selective pressure is distributed over the length of the gene, each site may experience rather weak pressure.

      Let p be the proportion of AT sites and q be the proportion of GC sites in the gene. The flux of AT-to-GC would be pf and the flux in reverse, GC-to-AT, would be qg. At equilibrium, pf = qg. Given f and g, the ratio of p and q would eventually reach p/q \= g/f. We now determine if the fluxes are in equilibrium (pf =qg). If they are not, the genic GC ratio is likely under selection and is moving to a different equilibrium.

      In these genic analyses, we first analyze the human lineage (Brown and Jiricny 1989; Galtier and Duret 2007). Using chimpanzees and gorillas as the outgroups, we identified the derived variants that became nearly fixed in humans with frequency > 0.8 (Table 6). The chi-square test shows that the GC variants had a significantly higher fixation probability compared to AT. In addition, this pattern is also found in chimpanzees (p < 0.001). In M. m. domesticus (Table 6), the chi-square test reveals no difference in the fixation probability between GC and AT (p = 0.957). Further details can be found in Supplementary Figure 2. Overall, a higher fixation probability of the GC variants is found in human and chimpanzee, whereas this bias is not observed in mice.

      Tables 6-7 here

      Based on Table 6, we could calculate the value of p, q, f and g (see Table 7). Shown in the last row of Table 7, the (pf)/(qg) ratio is much larger than 1 in both the human and chimpanzee lineages. Notably, the ratio in mouse is not significantly different from 1. Combining Tables 4 and 7, we conclude that the slight acceleration of fixation in mice can be accounted for by genetic drift, due to gene conversion among rRNA gene copies. In contrast, the different fluxes corroborate the interpretations of Table 5 that selection is operating in both humans and chimpanzees.”

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Responses to the reviewers

      We thank the editor and reviewers for their insightful feedback and valuable suggestions on our revised manuscript. In this reply, we provided further clarifications and made changes accordingly. Reviewers’ comments are in bold, and our responses are immediately below. Changes in the main text are presented in italics, accompanied by the specific line numbers in the revised manuscript where these changes can be found. Below, we respond to each reviewer’s comments in turn.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Ps observed 24 objects and were asked which afforded particular actions (14 action types). Affordances for each object were represented by a 14-item vector, values reflecting the percentage of Ps who agreed on a particular action being afforded by the object. An affordance similarity matrix was generated which reflected similarity in affordances between pairs of objects. Two clusters emerged, reflecting correlations between affordance ratings in objects smaller than body size and larger than body size. These clusters did not correlate themselves. There was a trough in similarity ratings between objects ~105 cm and ~130 cm, arguably reflecting the body size boundary. The authors subsequently provide some evidence that this clear demarcation is not simply an incidental reflection of body size, but likely causally related. This evidence comes in the flavour of requiring Ps to imagine themselves as small as a cat or as large as an elephant and showing a predicted shift in the affordance boundary. The manuscript further demonstrates that ChatGPT (theoretically interesting because it's trained on language alone without sensorimotor information; trained now on words rather than images) showed a similar boundary.

      The authors also conducted a small MRI study task where Ps decide whether a probe action was affordable (graspable?) and created a congruency factor according to the answer (yes/no). There was an effect of congruency in posterior fusiform and superior parietal lobule for objects within body size range, but not outside. No effects in LOC or M1.

      The major strength of this manuscript in my opinion is the methodological novelty. I felt the correlation matrices were a clever method for demonstrating these demarcations, the imagination manipulation was also exciting, and the ChatGPT analysis provided excellent food for thought. These findings are important for our understanding of the interactions between action and perception, and hence for researchers from a range of domains of cognitive neuroscience.

      The major element that limits conclusions is that an MRI study with 12 P in this context can really only provide pilot data. Certainly the effects are not strong enough for 12 P to generate much confidence. The others of my concerns have been addressed in the revision.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I think that the authors need to mention in the abstract that the MRI study constitutes a small pilot.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer’s positive evaluation and constructive suggestions. In response to the concern about the limited number of participants in the fMRI study, we fully acknowledge the implications this has on the generalizability and robustness of our findings related to the congruency effect. To clarity, we have explicitly stated its preliminary nature of the MRI study in the abstract [line 22]: “A subsequent fMRI experiment offered preliminary evidence of affordance processing exclusively for objects within the body size range, but not for those beyond.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      In this work, the authors seek to test a version of an old idea, which is that our perception of the world and our understanding of the objects in it are deeply influenced by the nature of our bodies and the kinds of behaviours and actions that those objects afford. The studies presented here muster three kinds of evidence for a discontinuity in the encoding of objects, with a mental "border" between objects roughly of human body scale or smaller, which tend to relate to similar kinds of actions that are yet distinct from the kinds of actions implied by human-or-larger scale objects. This is demonstrated through observers' judgments of the kinds of actions different objects afford; through similar questioning of AI large-language models (LLMs); and through a neuroimaging study examining how brain regions implicated in object understanding make distinctions between kinds of objects at human and larger-than-human scales.

      Strengths 

      The authors address questions of longstanding interest in the cognitive neurosciences -- namely how we encode and interact with the many diverse kinds of objects we see and use in daily life. A key strength of the work lies in the application of multiple approaches. Examining the correlations among kinds of objects, with respect to their suitability for different action kinds, is novel, as are the complementary tests of judgments made by LLMs. The authors include a clever manipulation in which participants are asked to judge action-object pairs, having first adopted the imagined size of either a cat or an elephant, showing that the discontinuity in similarity judgments effectively moved to a new boundary closer to the imagined scale than the veridical human scale. The dynamic nature of the discontinuity hints that action affordances may be computed dynamically, "on the fly", during actual action behaviours with objects in the real world.

      Weaknesses 

      A limitation of the tests of LLMs may be that it is not always known what kinds of training material was used to build these models, leading to a possible "black box" problem. Further, presuming that those models are largely trained on previous human-written material, it may not necessarily be theoretically telling that the "judgments" of these models about action-object pairs shows human-like discontinuities. Indeed, verbal descriptions of actions are very likely to mainly refer to typical human behaviour, and so the finding that these models demonstrate an affordance discontinuity may simply reflect those statistics, rather than providing independent evidence for affordance boundaries.

      The relatively small sample size of the brain imaging experiment, and some design features (such as the task participants performed, and the relatively narrow range of objects tested) provide some limits on the extent to which it can be taken as support for the authors' claims.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation and the constructive comments. We agree that how LLMs work is a “black box”, and thus it is speculative to assume them to possess any human-like ability, because, as the reviewer pointed out, “these models demonstrate an affordance discontinuity may simply reflect those statistics.” Indeed, our manuscript has expressed a similar idea [line 338]: “We speculated that ChatGPT models may have formed the affordance boundary through a human prism ingrained within its linguistic training corpus.” That is, our intention was not to suggest that such information could replace sensorimotor-based interaction or achieve human-level capability, but rather to highlight that embodied interaction is necessary. Additionally, the scope of the present study does not extend to elucidating the mechanisms behind LLMs’ resemblance of affordance boundary, whether through statistical learning or actual comprehension. To clarify this point, in the revised manuscript, we have clarified that the mechanisms underlying the observed affordance boundary in LLMs may be different from human cognitive processes, and advocated future studies to explore this possibility [line 415]: “Nevertheless, caution should be taken when interpreting the capability of LLMs like ChatGPT, which are often considered “black boxes.” That is, our observation indicates that certain sensorimotor information is embedded within human language materials presumably through linguistic statistics, but it is not sufficient to assert that LLMs have developed a human-like ability to represent affordances. Furthermore, such information alone may be insufficient for LLMs to mimic the characteristics of the affordance perception in biological intelligence. Future studies are needed to elucidate such limitation.”

      Regarding the concern about the models’ results not “providing independent evidence for affordance boundaries”, our objective in employing LLMs was to explore if an affordance boundary could emerge from conceptual knowledge without direct sensorimotor experience, rather than to validate the existence of the affordance boundary per se.

      As for the concern about the limitations imposed by the small sample size and certain design features of our brain imaging experiment, please see our reply to Reviewer #1.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Feng et al. test the hypothesis that human body size constrains the perception of object affordances, whereby only objects that are smaller than the body size will be perceived as useful and manipulable parts of the environment, whereas larger objects will be perceived as "less interesting components."

      To test this idea, the study employs a multi-method approach consisting of three parts:

      In the first part, human observers classify a set of 24 objects that vary systematically in size (e.g., ball, piano, airplane) based on 14 different affordances (e.g., sit, throw, grasp). Based on the average agreement of ratings across participants, the authors compute the similarity of affordance profiles between all object pairs. They report evidence for two homogenous object clusters that are separated based on their size with the boundary between clusters roughly coinciding with the average human body size. In follow-up experiments, the authors show that this boundary is larger/smaller in separate groups of participants who are instructed to imagine themselves as an elephant/cat.

      In the second part, the authors ask different large language models (LLMs) to provide ratings for the same set of objects and affordances and conduct equivalent analyses on the obtained data. Some, but not all, of the models produce patterns of ratings that appear to show similar boundary effects, though less pronounced and at a different boundary size than in humans.

      In the third part, the authors conduct an fMRI experiment. Human observers are presented with four different objects of different sizes and asked if these objects afford a small set of specific actions. Affordances are either congruent or incongruent with objects. Contrasting brain activity on incongruent trials against brain activity on congruent trials yields significant effects in regions within the ventral and dorsal visual stream, but only for small objects and not for large objects.

      The authors interpret their findings as support for their hypothesis that human body size constrains object perception. They further conclude that this effect is cognitively penetrable, and only partly relies on sensorimotor interaction with the environment (and partly on linguistic abilities).

      Strengths:

      The authors examine an interesting and relevant question and articulate a plausible (though somewhat underspecified) hypothesis that certainly seems worth testing. Providing more detailed insights into how object affordances shape perception would be highly desirable. Their method of analyzing similarity ratings between sets of objects seems useful and the multi-method approach is original and interesting.

      Weaknesses:

      The study presents several shortcomings that clearly weaken the link between the obtained evidence and the drawn conclusions. Below I outline my concerns in no particular order:

      (1) It is not entirely clear to me what the authors are proposing and to what extent the conducted work actually speaks to this. For example, in the introduction, the authors write that they seek to test if body size serves not merely as a reference for object manipulation but also "plays a pivotal role in shaping the representation of objects." This motivation seems rather vague motivation and it is not clear to me how it could be falsified.

      Overall, the lack of theoretical precision makes it difficult to judge the appropriateness of the approaches and the persuasiveness of the obtained results. I would strongly suggest clarifying the theoretical rationale and explaining in more detail how the chosen experiments allow them to test falsifiable predictions.

      (2) The authors used only a very small set of objects and affordances in their study and they do not describe in sufficient detail how these stimuli were selected. This renders the results rather exploratory and clearly limits their potential to discover general principles of human perception. Much larger sets of objects and affordances and explicit data-driven approaches for their selection would provide a more convincing approach and allow the authors to rule out that their results are just a consequence of the selected set of objects and actions.

      (3) Relatedly, the authors could be more thorough in ruling out potential alternative explanations. Object size likely correlates with other variables that could shape human similarity judgments and the estimated boundary is quite broad (depending on the method, either between 80 and 150 cm or between 105 to 130 cm). More precise estimates of the boundary and more rigorous tests of alternative explanations would add a lot to strengthen the authors' interpretation.

      (4) While I appreciate the manipulation of imagined body size, as a clever way to solidify the link between body size and affordance perception, I find it unfortunate that it is implemented in a between-subjects design, as this clearly leaves open the possibility of pre-existing differences between groups. I certainly disagree with the authors' statement that their findings suggest "a causal link between body size and affordance perception."

      (5) The use of LLMs in the current study is not clearly motivated and I find it hard to understand what exactly the authors are trying to test through their inclusion. As it currently stands, I find it hard to discern how the presence of perceptual boundaries in LLMs could constitute evidence for affordance-based perception.

      (6) Along the same lines, the fMRI study also provides little evidence to support the authors' claims. The use of congruency effects as a way of probing affordance perception is not well motivated. Importantly (and related to comment 2 above), the very small set of objects and affordances in this experiment heavily complicates any conclusions about object size being the crucial variable determining the occurrence of congruency effects.

      Overall, I consider the main conclusions of the paper to be far beyond the reported data. Articulating a clearer theoretical framework with more specific hypotheses as well as conducting more principled analyses on more comprehensive data sets could help the authors obtain stronger tests of their ideas.

      Response: We appreciate the insightful inquiries regarding our manuscript. Below, we explained the theoretical motivation and rationale of each part of our experiments.

      In response to the reviewer’s insights, we have modified the expression “plays a pivotal role in shaping the representation of objects” in the revised manuscript and have restated the general question of our study in the introduction. Our motivation is on the long-lasting debate over the representation versus direct perception of affordance, specifically examining the “representationalization” of affordance. That is, we tested whether object affordance simply covaried directly with continuous constraints such as object size, a perspective aligned with the representation-free (direct perception) view, or whether affordance became representationalized, adhering to the representation-based view, constrained by body size. Such representationalization would generate a categorization between objects that are affordable and the environment that exceeds affordance.

      To test these hypotheses, we first delineated the affordance of various objects. We agree with the reviewer that in this step a broader selection of objects and actions could mitigate the risk of our results being influenced by the specific selection of objects and actions. However, our results are unlikely to be biased, because our selection was guided by two key criteria, rather than being arbitrary. First, the objects were selected from the dataset in Konkle and Oliva's study (2011), which systematically investigated object size’ impact on object recognition, thus providing a well-calibrated range of sizes (i.e., from 14 cm to 7,618 cm) reflective of real-world objects. Second, the selected actions covered a wide range of daily humans-objects/environments interactions, from single-point movements (e.g., hand, foot) to whole-body movements (e.g., lying, standing) based on the kinetics human action video dataset (Kay et al., 2017). Thus, this set of objects and actions is a representative sampling of typical human experiences.

      Upon demonstrating a trough in perceived affordance similarity, we recognized the location of the affordance boundary coincidentally fell within the range of human body size. We agree with the reviewer that this observation of the coincidence between body size and the location of boundary alone is not sufficient for a mechanistic explanation, because variables co-varying with object sizes might also generate this coincidence. The identification of a more precise location for the boundary unlikely rules out alternative explanations of this kind. To establish a causal link between body size and the affordance boundary, we opted for a direct manipulation of body sizes through imagination, while keeping all other variables constant across conditions. This approach allowed us to examine whether and how the affordance boundary shifts in response to body size changes.

      Regarding the between-subjects design of the imagination experiment, we wish to clarify that this design aimed to prevent carryover effects. Although a within-subjects design indeed is more sensitive in detecting manipulation effects by accounting for subject variability, it risks contamination across conditions. Specifically, transitioning immediately between different imagined body sizes poses a challenge, and sequential participation could induce undesirable response strategies, such as deliberately altering responses to the same objects in different conditions. The between-subjects design, which susceptible to participant variability (e.g., “pre-existing differences between groups” suggested by the reviewer), avoids such contamination. In addition, we employed random assignment of participants to different conditions (cat-size versus elephant-size).

      The body imagination experiment provided causal evidence of an embodied discontinuity, suggesting the boundary is tied to the agent’s motor capacity, rather than amodal sources. The LLMs experiment then sought to test a prediction from the embodied theories of cognition: the supramodality of object perception. Especially, we asked whether the embodied discontinuity is supramodally accessible, using LLMs to assess whether affordance perception discretization is supramodally accessible beyond the sensorimotor domain through linguistic understanding. From this perspective, our LLM experiment was employed not to affirm affordance-based perception but to examine and support a prediction by the embodied theories of cognition.

      Finally, our preliminary fMRI study aimed to conceptually replicate the perceptual discontinuity and explore it neural correlates using a subset of objects and actions from the behaviour experiments. This approach was chosen to achieve stable neural responses and enhance study power, employing the congruent effect (congruent - incongruent) as a metric for affordance processing (e.g., Kourtis et al., 2018), which reflects facilitated responses when congruent with objects’ affordances (e.g., Ellis & Tucker, 2000). Nevertheless, we recognize the limitation of a relatively small sample sizes, for details please see our reply to the reviewer #1.

      In summary, our findings contribute to the discourse on computationalism’s representation concept and influence of these representations, post-discretization, on processes beyond the sensorimotor domain. We hope that these additional explanations and revisions effectively address the concerns raised and demonstrate our commitment to enhancing the quality of our work in light of your valuable feedback. By acknowledging these limitations and directions for future research, we hope to further the discourse on affordance perception and embodied cognition.

      References

      Ellis, R., & Tucker, M. (2000). Micro‐affordance: The potentiation of components of action by seen objects. British Journal of Psychology, 91(4), 451-471.

      Kay, W., Carreira, J., Simonyan, K., Zhang, B., Hillier, C., Vijayanarasimhan, S., ... & Zisserman, A. (2017). The kinetics human action video dataset. arXiv preprint arXiv:1705.06950.

      Konkle, T., & Oliva, A. (2011). Canonical visual size for real-world objects. Journal of Experimental Psychology: human perception and performance, 37(1), 23.

      Kourtis, D., Vandemaele, P., & Vingerhoets, G. (2018). Concurrent cortical representations of function-and size-related object affordances: an fMRI study. Cognitive, Affective, & Behavioral Neuroscience, 18, 1221-1232.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Responses to the reviewers

      We deeply appreciate the reviewers’ comments. In response to the concerns raised, we have revised the manuscript accordingly. Below we address each of the reviewers’ comments in turn. Reviewers’ comments are in bold, and our responses are immediately below. Changes in the main text are presented in italics, followed by corresponding page and line numbers in the revised manuscript. We also highlighted tracks of change in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) The main behavioural work appears well-powered (>500 Ps). This sample reduces to 100 for the imagination study, after removing Ps whose imagined heights fell within the human range (100-200 cm). Why 100-200 cm? 100 cm is pretty short for an adult. Removing 80% of data feels like conclusions from the imagination study should be made with caution.

      R1: Sorry for the confusion. We did not remove 80% of the participants; instead, a separate sample of participants was recruited in the imagination experiment. The size of this sample (100 participants) was indeed smaller than the first experiment (528 participants), because the first experiment was set for exploratory purposes and was designed to be over-powered. Besides, inspection of the data of the first sample showed that the affordance pattern became stable after the first 50 participants. We explained this consideration in the revised manuscript:

      (p 21, ln 490) “…, another one hundred and thirty-nine participants from the same population were recruited from the same platform. We chose a smaller sample size for the imagination experiment compared to that for the object-action relation judgement task, because inspection of the data of the first sample showed that the affordance pattern became stable after the first 50 participants.”

      The average adult human height ranges from 140-170 cm for women and 150180 cm for men (NCD-RisC, 2016). Accordingly, the criterion of 100-200 cm covered this range and was set to ensure that participants unambiguously imagined a body schema different from that of human, as the tallest domestic cat below 100 cm according to the Guinness World Records and an elephant above 200 cm according to Crawley et al. (2017). We clarified these considerations in the revised manuscript:

      (p 21, ln 494) “To maximize the validity of the manipulation, data from participants whose imagined height fell within the average human size range (100cm - 200cm) were excluded from further analysis. Consequently, 100 participants (49 males, aged from 17 to 39 years, mean age = 23.2 years) remained in the analysis. This exclusion criterion was broader than the standard adult human height range of 140cm to 180cm (NCD-RisC, 2016). This approach ensured that our analysis focused on participants who unambiguously imagined a body schema different from humans, yet within the known height range of cats and elephants.”

      In addition, we also reanalysed the data with a more conservative criterion of 140cm to 180cm, and the results remained.

      (2) There are only 12 Ps in the MRI study, which I think should mean the null effects are not interpreted. I would not interpret these data as demonstrating a difference between SPL and LOC/M1, but rather that some analyses happened to fall over the significance threshold and others did not.

      R2: We would like to clarify that the null hypothesis of this fMRI study is the lack of two-way interaction between object size and object-action congruency, which was rejected by the observed significant interaction. That is, the interpretation of the present study did not rely on accepting any null effect.

      Having said this, we admit that the fMRI experiment is exploratory and the sample size is small (12 participants), which might lead to low power in estimating the affordance effect. In the revision, we acknowledge this issue explicitly:

      (p 16, ln 354) “…, supporting the idea that affordance is typically represented only for objects within the body size range. While it is acknowledged that the sample size of the fMRI study was small (12 participants), necessitating cautious interpretation of its results, the observed neural-level affordance discontinuity is notable. That is, qualitative differences in neural activity between objects within the affordance boundary and those beyond replicated our behavioral findings. This convergent evidence reinforced our claim that objects were discretized into two broad categories along the continuous size axis, with affordance only being manifested for objects within the boundary.”

      (3) I found the MRI ROI selection and definition a little arbitrary and not really justified, which rendered me even more cautious of the results. Why these particular sensory and motor regions? Why M1 and not PMC or SMA? Why SPL and not other parietal regions? Relatedly, ROIs were defined by thresholding pF and LOC at "around 70%" and SPL and M1 "around 80%", and it is unclear how and why these (different) thresholds were determined.

      R3: Our selection of these specific sensory and motor regions was based on prior literature reporting their distinct contribution to affordance perception (e.g., Borghi, 2005; Sakreida et al., 2016). The pFs was chosen as a representative region of the ventral visual stream, involved in object identification and classification, and the SPL was chosen as a representative region of the dorsal visual stream, involved in object perception and manipulation. The primary motor cortex (M1) has also been reported involved in affordance processing (e.g., McDannald et al., 2018), and we chose this region to probe the affordance congruency effect in the motor execution stage of the sense-think-act pathway. We did not choose the premotor cortex (PMC) and the supplementary motor area (SMA) because they were proposedly also involved in processes beyond motor execution (e.g., Hertrich et al., 2016; Kantak et al., 2012), and if any effect was observed, one cannot exclusively attribute the effect to motor execution. As for the parietal regions, our choice of the SPL not IPL/IPS is based on the meta-analysis of affordance processing areas where only the SPL shows consistent activation for both stable and variable affordances (Sakreida et al., 2016). We chose the SPL to capture effects on either type of affordances. In revision, we explained these considerations in the revised manuscript:

      (p 14, ln 280) “In addition to the pFs and SPL, we also examined the congruency effect in the lateral occipital cortex (LO), which is involved in object representation (e.g., Grill-Spector et al., 2000; Konkle & Caramazza, 2013) and provides inputs to both the pFs and SPL (Hebart et al., 2018). Meanwhile, the primary motor cortex (M1), which receives inputs from the dorsal stream (Vainio & Ellis, 2020), is involved in affordance processing (e.g., McDannald et al., 2018) and action executions (Binkofski et al., 2002).”

      (p 29, ln 684) “We chose the pFs, LO, SPL, and M1 as ROIs based on existing literature highlighting their distinct contributions to affordance perception (Borghi, 2005; Sakreida et al., 2016).”

      Regarding ROI thresholding, we apologize for the lack of clarity in reporting the thresholds in the original manuscript. The thresholds were different between ventral regions (from Zhen et al., 2015) and dorsal regions (from Fan et al., 2016) because they are from two different atlases. The former was constructed by probability maps of task-state fMRI activity during localizer contrast with stationary images and the latter by a parcellation of the brain's functional connectivity; therefore, the numerical values in these two atlases are not comparable. To extract ROIs with comparable sizes, we selected a threshold of 55% for the pFs, 90% for the LO, 78% for the SPL, and 94% for the M1 in the original manuscript.

      To rule out the possibility that the results were distorted by the specific choice of thresholds, we re-ran the analysis with a threshold 80% for all ROIs (resulting in 456 voxels in the lpFs, 427 voxels in the rpFs, 1667 voxels in the lLO, 999 voxels in the rLO, 661 voxels in the lSPL, 310 voxels in the rSPL, 231 voxels in the lM1, and 327 voxels in the rM1) with the 2-by-2 repeated-measures ANOVA. Our results remained the same qualitatively. A significant interaction between object type and congruency was observed in the pFs (F(1,11) = 24.87, p <.001, 𝜂2=.69) and SPL (F(1,11) = 14.62, p =.003, 𝜂2=.57). The simple effect analysis revealed the congruency effect solely for objects within body size range (pFs: p =.003; SPL: p <.001), not for objects beyond (ps >.30). For the M1 and LO, neither significant main effects (ps >.11) nor interactions were found (ps >.20).

      We clarified our choice of thresholds in the methods section in the revised manuscript:

      (p 29, ln 686) “Eight ROIs depicted in Fig. 3b were constructed based on the overlap between the whole-brain map activated by both objects within and beyond and corresponding functional atlases (the pFs and LO from Zhen et al., 2015; the SPL and M1 from Fan et al., 2016). To achieve ROIs of similar sizes, we applied varying thresholds to each cortical area: for the pFs and LO, the atlases were thresholded at 55% and 90%, resulting in 266 voxels in the lpFs, 427 in the rpFs, 254 in the lLO and 347 in the rLO; for the SPL and M1, the atlases were thresholded at 78% and 94%, resulting in 661 voxels in the lSPL, 455 in the rSPL, 378 in the lM1, and 449 in the rM1. In the subsequent analysis, homologous areas spanning both cortical hemispheres were merged.”

      (4) Discussion and theoretical implications. The authors discuss that the MRI results are consistent with the idea we only represent affordances within body size range. But the interpretation of the behavioural correlation matrices was that there was this similarity also for objects larger than body size, but forming a distinct cluster. I therefore found the interpretation of the MRI data inconsistent with the behavioural findings.

      R4: We speculated that the similarity in action perception among objects beyond the body size range may be due to these objects being similarly conceptualized as ‘environment’, in contrast to the objects within the body size range, which are categorized differently, namely as the ‘objects for the animal.’ Accordingly, in cortical regions involved in object processing, objects conceptualized as ‘environment’ unlikely showed the congruency effect, distinct from objects within the body size range. We have explained this point in the revised manuscript:

      (p 17, ln 370) “…which resonates the embodied influence on the formation of abstract concepts (e.g., Barsalou, 1999; Lakoff & Johnson, 1980) of objects and environment. Consistently, our fMRI data did not show the congruency effect for objects beyond the body size range, distinct from objects within this range, suggesting a categorization influenced by objects’ relative size to the human body.”

      (5) In the discussion, the authors outline how this work is consistent with the idea that conceptual and linguistic knowledge is grounded in sensorimotor systems. But then reference Barsalou. My understanding of Barsalou is the proposition of a connectionist architecture for conceptual representation. I did not think sensorimotor representation was privileged, but rather that all information communicates with all other to constitute a concept.

      R5: We are sorry for the confusion. We do not intend to argue that the sensorimotor representation is privileged. Instead, we would like to simply emphasize their engagement in concept. According to our understanding, Barsalou’s Perceptual Symbol Theory proposes that grounded concepts include sensorimotor information, and conceptual knowledge is grounded in the same neural system that supports action (Barsalou, 1999). This is consistent with our proposal that the affordance boundary locked to an animal’s sensorimotor capacity might give rise to a conceptual-ish representation of object-ness specific to the very animal. We have clarified this point in the introduction and discussion on the conceptual knowledge and sensorimotor information:

      In the introduction (p 2, ln 59) “…, and the body may serve as a metric that facilitates meaningful engagement with the environment by differentiating objects that are accessible for interactions from those not. Further, grounded cognition theory (see Barsalou, 2008 for a review) suggests that the outputs of such differentiation might transcend sensorimotor processes and integrate into supramodal concepts and language. From this perspective, we proposed two hypotheses...”

      In the discussion (p 18, ln 392) “Indeed, it has been proposed that conceptual knowledge is grounded in the same neural system that supports action (Barsalou, 1999; Glenberg et al., 2013; Wilson & Golonka, 2013), thereby suggesting that sensorimotor information, along with other modal inputs, may be embedded in language (e.g., Casasanto, 2011; Glenberg & Gallese, 2012; Stanfield & Zwaan, 2001), as the grounded theory proposed (see Barsalou, 2008 for a review).”

      (6) More generally, I believe that the impact and implications of this study would be clearer for the reader if the authors could properly entertain an alternative concerning how objects may be represented. Of course, the authors were going to demonstrate that objects more similar in size afforded more similar actions. It was impossible that Ps would ever have responded that aeroplanes afford grasping and balls afford sitting, for instance. What do the authors now believe about object representation that they did not believe before they conducted the study? Which accounts of object representation are now less likely?

      R6: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. The theoretical motivation of the present study is to explore whether, for continuous action-related physical features (such as object size relative to the agents), affordance perception introduces discontinuity and qualitative dissociation, i.e., to allow the sensorimotor input to be assigned into discrete states/kinds, as representations envisioned by the computationalists; alternatively, whether the activity may directly mirror the input, free from discretization/categorization/abstraction, as proposed by the Replacement proposal of some embodied theories on cognition.

      By addressing this debate, we hoped to shed light on the nature of representation in, and resulted from, the vision-for-action processing. Our finding of affordance discontinuity suggests that sensorimotor input undergoes discretization implied in the computationalism idea of representation. Further, not contradictory to the claims of the embodied theories, these representations do shape processes out of the sensorimotor domain, but after discretization.

      We have now explained our hypotheses and alternatives explicitly in the revised introduction and discussion:

      In the introduction (p 2, ln 45) “However, the question of how object perception is influenced by the relative size of objects in relation to the human body remains open. Specifically, it is unclear whether this relative size simply acts as a continuous variable for locomotion reference, or if it affects differentiating and organizing object representation based on their ensued affordances.”

      In the discussion (p 14, ln 295) “One long-lasting debate on affordance centers on the distinction between representational and direct perception of affordance. An outstanding theme shared by many embodied theories of cognition is the replacement hypothesis (e.g., Van Gelder, 1998), which challenges the necessity of representation as posited by computationalism’s cognitive theories (e.g., Fodor, 1975). This hypothesis suggests that input is discretized/categorized and subjected to abstraction or symbolization, creating discrete stand-ins for the input (e.g., representations/states). Such representationalization would lead to a categorization between the affordable (the objects) and those beyond affordance (the environment), in contrast to the perspective offered by embodied theories. The present study probed this ‘representationalization’ of affordance by examining whether affordance perception introduces discontinuity and qualitative dissociation in response to continuous action-related physical features (such as object size relative to the agents), which allows sensorimotor input to be assigned into discrete states/kinds, in line with the representation-based view under the constraints of body size. Alternatively, it assessed whether activity directly mirrors the input, free from discretization/categorization/abstraction, in line with the representation-free view.

      First, our study found evidence demonstrating discretization in affordance perception. Then, through the body imagination experiment, we provided causal evidence suggesting that this discretization originates from sensorimotor interactions with objects rather than amodal sources, such as abstract object concepts independent of agent motor capability. Finally, we demonstrated the supramodality of this embodied discontinuity by leveraging the recent advances in AI. We showed that the discretization in affordance perception is supramodally accessible to disembodied agents such as large language models (LLMs), which lack sensorimotor input but can access linguistic materials built upon discretized representations. These results collectively suggest that sensorimotor input undergoes discretization, as implied in the computationalism’s idea of representation. Note that, these results are not contradictory to the claim of the embodied theories, as these representations do shape processes beyond the sensorimotor domain but after discretization.

      This observed boundary in affordance perception extends the understanding of the discontinuity in perception in response to the continuity of physical inputs (Harnad, 1987; Young et al., 1997).”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      a) I would recommend providing further justification for why 100-200 cm were used as the cut-offs reflecting acceptable imagined body size. Were these decisions preregistered anywhere? If so, please state.

      Ra: Please see R1.

      b) I would encourage the authors to call the MRI a small pilot study throughout, including in the abstract.

      Rb: We completely agree and have indicated the preliminary nature of this study in the revised version:

      (p 11, ln 236) “To test this speculation, we ran an fMRI experiment with a small number of participants to preliminarily investigate the neural basis of the affordance boundary in the brain by measuring neural activity in the dorsal and ventral visual streams when participants were instructed to evaluate whether an action was affordable by an object (Fig. 3a).”

      c) Please provide much further justification of ROI selection, why these thresholds were chosen, and therefore why they are different across regions.

      Rc: Please see R3.

      d) Further elucidation in the discussion would help the reader interpret the MRI data, which should always be interpreted also in light of the behavioural findings.

      Rd: Please see R4.

      e) The authors may wish to outline precisely what they claim concerning the nature of conceptual/linguistic representation. Is sensorimotor information privileged or just part of the distributed representation of concepts?

      Re: This is a great point. For details of corresponding revision, please see R5.

      f) There are some nods to alternative manners in which we plausibly represent objects (e.g. about what the imagination study tells us) but I think this theoretical progression should be more prominent.

      Rf: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. For details of corresponding revision, please see R6.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      (1) A limitation of the tests of LLMs may be that it is not always known what kinds of training material was used to build these models, leading to a possible "black box" problem. Further, presuming that those models are largely trained on previous human-written material, it may not necessarily be theoretically telling that the "judgments" of these models about action-object pairs show human-like discontinuities. Indeed, verbal descriptions of actions are very likely to mainly refer to typical human behaviour, and so the finding that these models demonstrate an affordance discontinuity may simply reflect those statistics, rather than evidence that affordance boundaries can arise independently even without "organism-environment interactions" as the authors claim here.

      R1: We agree that how LLMs work is a “black box”, and thus it is speculative to assume them to possess any human-like ability, because, as the reviewer pointed out, “these models demonstrate an affordance discontinuity may simply reflect those statistics.” Indeed, our manuscript has expressed a similar idea: “We speculated that ChatGPT models may have formed the affordance boundary through a human prism ingrained within its linguistic training corpus. (p 16 ln 338)”. That is, we did not intend to claim that such information is sufficient to replace sensorimotor-based interaction, or to restore human-level capability, for which we indeed speculated that embodied interaction is necessary. In the revised manuscript, we have clarified our stand that the mechanism generating the observed affordance boundary in LLMs might be different from that in human cognition, and urged future studies to explore this possibility:

      (p 18, ln 413) “…, as well as alignment methods used in fine-tuning the model (Ouyang et al., 2022). Nevertheless, caution should be taken when interpreting the capabilities of LLMs like ChatGPT, which are often considered “black boxes.” That is, our observation indicates that some degree of sensorimotor information is embedded within human language materials presumably through linguistic statistics, but it is not sufficient to assert that LLMs have developed a human-like ability to represent affordances. Furthermore, such information alone may be insufficient for LLMs to mimic the characteristics of the affordance perception in biological intelligence. Future studies are needed to elucidate such limitation.”

      Indeed, because of this potential dissociation, our LLM study might bear novel implications for the development of AI agents. We elaborated on them in the revised discussion on LLMs:

      (p 19, ln 427) “…, represents a crucial human cognitive achievement that remains elusive for AI systems. Traditional AI (i.e., task-specific AI) has been confined with narrowly defined tasks, with substantial limitations in adaptability and autonomy. Accordingly, these systems have served primarily as tools for humans to achieve specific outcomes, rather than as autonomous agents capable of independently formulating goals and translating them into actionable plans. In recent years, significant efforts have been directed towards evolving traditional AI into more agent-like entities, especially in domains like navigation, object manipulation, and other interactions with the physical world. Despite these advancements, the capabilities of AI still fall behind human-level intelligence. On the other hand, embodied cognition theories suggest that sensorimotor interactions with the environment are foundational for various cognitive domains. From this point of view, endowing AI with human-level abilities in physical agent-environment interactions might provide an unreplaceable missing piece for achieving Artificial General Intelligence (AGI). This development would significantly facilitate AI’s role in robotics, particularly in actions essential for survival and goal accomplishment, a promising direction for the next breakthrough in AI (Gupta et al., 2021; Smith & Gasser, 2005).

      However, equipping a disembodied AI with the ability for embodied interaction planning within a specific environment remains a complex challenge. By testing the potential representationalization of action possibilities (affordances) in both humans and LLMs, the present study suggests a new approach to enhancing AI’s interaction ability with the environment. For instance, our finding of supramodal affordance representation may indicate a possible pathway for disembodied LLMs to engage in embodied physical interactions with their surroundings. From an optimistic view, these results suggest that LLM-based agents, if appropriately designed, may leverage affordance representations embedded in language to interact with the physical world. Indeed, by clarifying and aligning such representations with the physical constitutes of LLM-based agents, and even by explicitly constructing an agent-specific object space, we may foster the sensorimotor interaction abilities of LLM-based agents. This progression could lead to achieving animal-level interaction abilities with the world, potentially sparking new developments in the field of embodied cognition theories.”

      (2) The authors include a clever manipulation in which participants are asked to judge action-object pairs, having first adopted the imagined size of either a cat or an elephant, showing that the discontinuity in similarity judgments effectively moved to a new boundary closer to the imagined scale than the veridical human scale. The dynamic nature of the discontinuity suggests a different interpretation of the authors' main findings. It may be that action affordance is not a dimension that stably characterises the long-term representation of object kinds, as suggested by the authors' interpretation of their brain findings, for example. Rather these may be computed more dynamically, "on the fly" in response to direct questions (as here) or perhaps during actual action behaviours with objects in the real world.

      R2: We thank the reviewer for pointing out the dynamic nature of affordance perception in our study. This feature indeed reinforced our attribution of the boundary into an affordance-based process instead of a conceptual or semantic process, the latter of which would predict the action possibilities being a fixed belief about the objects, instead of being dynamically determined according to the feature of the agent-object dyads. In addition, this dynamic does not contradict with our interpretation of the observed boundary in affordance perception. With this observation, we speculated that continuous input was abstracted or representationalized into discontinued categories, and the boundary between these categories was drawn according to the motor capacity of the agent. The finding of the boundary adapting to manipulation on body schema suggests that the abstraction/representationalization dynamically updates according to the current belief of motor capacity and body schema of the animal. In addition, we agree that future studies are needed to examine the dynamics of the abstraction/representationalization of affordance, probably by investigating the evolvement of affordance representation during ongoing actual interactions with novel objects or manipulated motor capability. These points are now addressed in the revision:

      (p 17, ln 380) “Therefore, this finding suggests that the affordance boundary is cognitively penetrable, arguing against the directness of affordance perception (e.g., Gibson, 1979; Greeno, 1994; Prindle et al., 1980) or the exclusive sensorimotor origin of affordances (e.g., Gallagher, 2017; Thompson, 2010; Hutto & Myin, 2012; Chemero, 2013). Further, this finding that the boundary adapted to manipulation on body schema suggests that the abstraction/representationalization may be dynamically updated in response to the current motor capacity and body schema of the agent, suggesting that the affordance-based process is probably determined dynamically by the nature of the agent-object dyads, rather than being a fixed belief about objects. Future studies could explore the dynamics of affordance representationalization, probably by investigating how affordance representations evolve during active interactions with novel objects or under conditions of altered motor capabilities. Finally, our findings also suggest that disembodied conceptual knowledge pertinent to action likely modulates affordance perception.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      a) As described, I think the authors could improve their discussion of the LLM work and consider more deeply possible different interpretations of their findings with those models. Are they really providing an independent data point about how objects may be represented, or instead is this a different, indirect way of asking humans the same questions (given the way in which these models are trained)?

      Ra: Please see R1.

      b) Some of the decisions behind the design of the fMRI experiment, and some of the logic of its interpretation, could be made clearer. Why those four objects per se? What kinds of confounds, such as familiarity, or the range of possible relevant actions per object, might need to be considered? Is there the possibility that relative performance on the in-scanner behavioural task may be in part responsible for the findings? Why were those specific regions of interest chosen and not others? The authors find that the dorsal and ventral regions make a univariate distinction between congruent and incongruent trials, but only for human-scale objects, but it was not clear from the framework that the authors adopted why that distinction should go in that direction (e.g. congruent > incongruent) nor why there shouldn't also be a distinction for the "beyond" objects? Finally, might some of these brain questions better be approached with an RSA or similar approach, as that would seem to better map onto the behavioural studies?

      Rb: We thank the reviewer for the detailed suggestions.

      Regarding the fMRI study, we have provided further justification on its rationale in the revised manuscript:

      (p 11, ln 231) “The distinct categories of reported affordances demarcated by the boundary imply that the objects on either side of the boundary may be represented differently in the brain. We thus speculated that the observed behavioral discontinuity is likely underpinned by distinct neural activities, which give rise to these discrete ‘representations’ separated by the boundary.”

      The objects used in the fMRI study were selected by taking into account the objective of the fMRI study, which was to provide the neural basis for the affordance discontinuity found in behaviour experiments. In other words, the fMRI study is not an exploratory experiment, but a validation experiment. To this end, we deliberately selected a small range of common objects to ensure that participants were sufficiently familiar with them, as confirmed through their oral reports. Furthermore, to ensure a fair comparison between the two categories of objects in terms of action possibility range, we predetermined an equal number of congruent and incongruent actions for each category. This arrangement was intended to eliminate any bias that might arise from different amount of action choices associated with each category. Therefore, the present object and action sets in the fMRI study, which were based on the behavior experiments, are sufficient for its purpose.

      Regarding the possibility that the performance of the in-scanner behavioural task may be in part responsible for the findings, we analysed participants’ performance. Not surprisingly, participants demonstrated high consistency and accuracy in their responses:

      𝑀𝑒𝑎𝑛𝐶𝑜𝑛𝑔𝑟𝑢𝑒𝑛𝑡_𝑂𝑏𝑗𝑒𝑐𝑡𝑊𝑖𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛 = 0.991, SD = 0.018;

      𝑀𝑒𝑎𝑛𝐼𝑛𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑔𝑟𝑢𝑒𝑛𝑡_𝑂𝑏𝑗𝑒𝑐𝑡𝑊𝑖𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛 = 0.996, SD = 0.007;

      𝑀𝑒𝑎𝑛𝐶𝑜𝑛𝑔𝑟𝑢𝑒𝑛𝑡_𝑂𝑏𝑗𝑒𝑐𝑡𝐵𝑒𝑦𝑜𝑛𝑑 = 0.996, SD = 0.004;

      𝑀𝑒𝑎𝑛𝐼𝑛𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑔𝑟𝑢𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑂𝑏𝑗𝑒𝑐𝑡𝐵𝑒𝑦𝑜𝑛𝑑 = 0.998, SD = 0.002

      in all conditions, suggesting constant active engagement with the task. Thus, the inscanner behaviour unlikely resulted in the lack of congruency effect for the ‘beyond’ objects observed in the brain.

      Regarding the selection of ROIs, our decision to focus on these specific sensory and motor regions was based on existing literature highlighting their distinct contribution to affordance perception (Borghi, 2005; Sakreida et al., 2016). The pFs was chosen for its role in object identification and classification, while the SPL was chosen for its involvement in object manipulation. Additionally, the primary motor cortex (M1) is known to be engaged in affordance processing (e.g., McDannald et al., 2018), which was included to investigate the affordance congruency effect during the motor execution stage of the sense-think-act pathway. These considerations are detailed in the revised manuscript:

      (p 14, ln 280) “In addition to the pFs and SPL, we also examined the congruency effect in the lateral occipital cortex (LO), which is involved in object representation (e.g., Grill-Spector et al., 2000; Konkle & Caramazza, 2013) and provides inputs to both the pFs and SPL (Hebart et al., 2018). Meanwhile, the primary motor cortex (M1), which receives inputs from the dorsal stream (Vainio & Ellis, 2020), is involved in affordance processing (e.g., McDannald et al., 2018) and action executions (Binkofski et al., 2002).”

      (p 29, ln 684) “We chose the pFs, LO, SPL, and M1 as ROIs based on existing literature highlighting their distinct contributions to affordance perception (Borghi, 2005; Sakreida et al., 2016).”

      Regarding the congruency effect, in our study, we followed the established fMRI research paradigm of employing the congruent effect as a measure of affordance processing (e.g., Kourtis et al., 2018), and the rationale behind the directionality of the distinction in our framework (congruent > incongruent) is grounded in the concept of affordance, in which the mere perception of a graspable object facilitates motor responses that are congruent with certain qualities of the object (e.g., Ellis & Tucker, 2000). From the interaction of congruency by object type, we observed only congruency effect for objects within rather than objects beyond. We speculate that the objects beyond the affordance boundary is generally beyond the motor capacities of the very animal, being too large for the animal to manipulate, thus no congruency effect was found. We have added these clarifications in the revised manuscript:

      (p 11, ln 244) “The congruency effect, derived from the contrast of Congruent versus Incongruent conditions, is a well-established measure of affordance processing (e.g., Kourtis et al., 2018).”

      (p 16, ln 340) “In contrast, objects larger than that range typically surpass the animal’s motor capabilities, rendering them too cumbersome for effective manipulation. Consequently, these larger objects are less likely to be considered as typical targets for manipulation by the animal, as opposed to the smaller objects. That is, they are perceived not as the “objects” in the animal’s eye, but as part of the background environment, due to their impracticality for direct interactions.”

      Regarding the RSA analysis, we agree with the reviewer that RSA may offer a more direct comparison with similarities among objects. However, our primary objective in this fMRI study was to explore the neural basis of the affordance boundary observed in the behavioural study, rather than explaining the similarities in neural responses between different objects. For this reason, we did not conduct RSA analysis.

      c) Page 4 Re statistical evaluation of the discontinuity in judgments, the authors might consider a Bayesian approach, which would be stronger than using "all ps > 0.05" to argue that within-boundary similarities are consistent and high.

      Rc: We thank the reviewer for the suggestion on the Bayesian approach for significance tests, which has been now added in the revised manuscript:

      In the results (p 4, ln 105) “This trough suggested an affordance boundary between size rank 4 and 5, while affordance similarities between neighboring ranks remained high (rs > 0.45) and did not significantly differ from each other (ps > 0.05, all 𝐵𝐹10 < 10) on either side of the boundary (Fig. 1d, left panel, green lines).”

      In the methods (p 25, ln 597) “Pearson and Filon’s (1898) Z, implemented in R package “cocor” (Diedenhofen & Musch, 2015) was used to evaluate the significance of these similarities (alpha level = .05, one-tail test). For significance tests, Bayesian statistical analyses were conducted using the web version of the “bayesplay” R package (Colling, 2021). Specifically, the data (likelihood) model was specified as a normal distribution, where the correlation coefficients were transformed to Fisher’s z. The null hypothesis was specified as a standard normal distribution centred at zero. Conversely, the alternative hypothesis was specified as a normal distribution centred at 2. Bayes factors (BF10) were calculated and interpreted using the classification scheme suggested by Wagenmakers et al. (2011), wherein a Bayes factor greater than 10 is considered strong evidence for accepting H1 over H0.”

      d) Page 4 One question I had about the big objects is whether their internal similarity and dissimilarity to smaller objects, might largely arise if most of the answers about actions for those larger objects are just "no"? This depends on the set of possible actions that were considered: the authors chose 14 from a previous study but did not describe these further or consider possible strengths/limitations of this selection. This is a very important point that needs addressing - to what extent are these findings "fragile" in that they relate only to that specific selection of 14 action kinds?

      Rd: The action judgements for objects beyond body size were not mostly “no”; in fact, there was no significant difference between average action possibilities related to objects beyond (25%) and within (26%). Rather, the dissimilarity between objects within and those beyond likely arose from the difference in most-plausible action set they related. For example, the top three actions related to objects within are “grasp”, “hold” and “throw”, while those related to objects beyond are “sit”, “lift” and “stand”, as stated in our original manuscript: “A further analysis on the affordances separated by the boundary revealed that objects within human body size range were primarily subjected to hand-related actions such as grasping, holding and throwing. These affordances typically involve object manipulation with humans’ effectors. In contrast, objects beyond the size range of human body predominantly afforded actions such as sitting and standing, which typically require locomotion or posture change of the whole body around or within the objects (p 11 ln 229)”.

      Regarding the validity of action selection, the selection of the objects and affordances in this study was guided by two key criteria. First, the objects were selected from the dataset published in Konkle and Oliva's study (2011), which systematically investigates the effect of object size on object recognition. Therefore, the range of object sizes, from 14 cm to 7,618 cm, is well-calibrated and represents a typical array of object sizes found in the real world. Second, the actions were selected to cover a wide range of daily humans-objects/environments interactions, from singlepoint movements (e.g., hand, foot) to whole-body movements (e.g., lying, standing), based on the kinetics human action video dataset (Kay et al., 2017). Thus, this set of objects and actions is a sufficiently representative of typic human experiences. In revision, we have clarified these two criteria in the methods section:

      (p 22, ln 517) “The full list of objects, their diagonal size, and size rankings were provided in Supplementary Table S6. The objects were selected from the dataset in Konkle and Oliva’s study (2011) to cover typic object sizes in the world (ranging from 14 cm to 7,618 cm), and actions related to these objects were selected to span a spectrum of daily humans-objects/environments interactions, from single-point movements (e.g., hand, foot) to whole-body movements (e.g., lying, standing), based on the Kinetics Human Action Video Dataset (Kay et al., 2017).”

      Having said this, we agree with reviewer that a larger set of objects and actions will facilitate finer localization of the representational discontinuity, which can be addressed in future studies

      (p 16, ln 344): “…, due to their impracticality for direct interactions. Future studies should incorporate a broader range of objects and a more comprehensive set of affordances for finer delineation of the representational discontinuity between objects and the environment.”

      e) Page 12 "no region showed the congruency effect for objects beyond the body size" in a whole brain analysis. What about a similar analysis for the humanscale objects? We must also keep in mind that with N=12 there may be relatively little power to detect such effects at the random-effects level, so this null finding may not be very informative.

      Re: We thank the reviewer for this advice. The whole brain analysis on the congruency effect for human-scale objects (objects within) has now been included in the supplementary materials (please see Author response figure 1d (New Supplementary Fig. S4d) and Author response table 1 (New Supplementary Table S5) below).

      Author response image 1.

      Significant brain activations of different contrasts in the whole-brain level analysis. a, the effect of object type, positive values (warm color) indicated higher activation for objects within than objects beyond and negative values (cold color) indicated the opposite. b, the effect of congruency, positive values indicated higher activation in congruent than incongruent condition. c, the effect of interaction between object type and congruency, positive values indicated the larger congruency effect for objects within than beyond. d, the congruency effect for objects within. All contrasts were corrected with cluster-level correction at p < .05. The detailed cluster-level results for each contrast map can be found in Supplementary Table S2 to S5.

      Author response table 1.

      Cortical regions showing significant congruency effect (congruent versus incongruent) for objects within, whole-brain analysis (R = right hemisphere, L = left hemisphere; Z > 2.3, p = 0.05, cluster corrected)

      Regarding the power of the fMRI study, we would like to clarify that, the critical test of this fMRI study is the two-way interaction of congruency effect by object size instead of the (null) congruency effect for the object beyond. Having said this, we agree that the sample size is small which might lead to lack of power in the fMRI study. In the revision we have now acknowledged this issue explicitly:

      (p 16, ln 354) “…supporting the idea that affordance is typically represented only for objects within the body size range. While it is acknowledged that the sample size of the fMRI study was small (12 participants), necessitating cautious interpretation of its results, the observed neural-level affordance discontinuity is notable. That is, qualitative differences in neural activity between objects within the affordance boundary and those beyond replicated our behavior findings. This convergent evidence reinforced our claim that objects were discretized into two broad categories along the continuous size axis, with affordance only being manifested for objects within the boundary.”

      f) Page 14 [the fMRI findings] "suggest that affordance perception likely requires perceptual processing and is not necessarily reflected in motor execution". This seems a large leap to make from a relatively basic experiment that tests only a small set of (arbitrarily chosen) objects and actions. It's important to keep in mind too that none of the studies here actually asked participants to interact with objects; that objects were shown as 2D images; and that the differences between real-world sizes of objects were greatly condensed by the way they are scaled for presentation on a computer screen (and such scaling is probably greater for the larger-than-human objects).

      Rf: The action-congruency judgement task is widely used in the studies of affordance processing (e.g., Kourtis et al., 2018; Peelen & Caramazza, 2012), so does the practice of not including actual interaction with the objects and using 2D instead of 3D objects (e.g., Peelen & Caramazza, 2012; Matić et al., 2020). However, we are aware that alternative practice exists in the field and we agree that it would be interesting for future studies to test whether actual interactions and 3D objects presentation may bring any change on the affordance boundary observed in our study.

      Our inference “affordance perception likely requires perceptual processing and is not necessarily reflected in motor execution” was based on the fMRI finding that the congruency effect only in cortical regions proposedly engaged in perceptual processing, but not in the M1 which is associated with motor execution. This significant two-way interaction pointed to a possibility that affordance processing may not necessarily manifest in motor execution.

      We acknowledge the scaling issue inherent in all laboratory experiments, but we doubt that it significantly influenced our results. In fact, it is a common practice in studies on object size to present objects of different physical sizes as constantly sized images on a screen (e.g., Konkle & Oliva, 2012; Huang et al., 2022). Moreover, scaling does not change the smoothness of object sizes, whereas the affordance boundary represents a singularity point that disrupts this smoothness. Finally, regarding the limited variety of objects and actions, please see Rd.

      g) Page 15 Why are larger objects "less interesting"? They have important implications for navigation, for example?

      Rg: We are sorry for the confusion. Our intention was to express that objects beyond the affordance boundary are generally beyond motor capacities of the animal in question. As such, compared to smaller objects within the environment, these larger objects may not typically be considered as potential targets for manipulation. We have now corrected the wording in the revised text:

      (p 16, ln 340) “In contrast, objects larger than that range typically surpass the animal’s motor capabilities, rendering them too cumbersome for effective manipulation. Consequently, these larger objects are less likely to be considered as typical targets for manipulation by the animal, as opposed to smaller objects in the environment. That is, they are perceived not as the “objects” in the animal’s eye, but as part of the background environment, due to their impracticality for direct interactions.”

      h) Page 15 At several places I wondered whether the authors were arguing against a straw man. E.g. "existing psychological studies...define objects in a disembodied manner..." but no citations are given on this point, nor do the authors describe previous theoretical positions that would make a strong counter-claim to the one advocated here.

      Rh: We are sorry for not presenting our argument clearly. Previous studies often define the object space based on object features alone, such as absolute size or function, without reference to the knowledge and the abilities of the agent (e.g., de Beeck et al., 2008; Konkle & Oliva, 2011). This perspective overlooks the importance of the features of the animal-object pairs. Gibson (1979) highlighted that an object’s affordance, which includes all action possibilities it offers to an animal, is determined by the object’s size relative to the animal’s size, rather than its real-world size. Under this embodied view, we argue that the object space is better defined by the features of the agent-object system, and this is the primary assumption and motivation of the present study. We have now clarified this point and added the references in the revision:

      (p 2, ln 35) “A contemporary interpretation of this statement is the embodied theory of cognition (e.g., Chemero, 2013; Gallagher, 2017; Gibbs, 2005; Wilson, 2002; Varela et al., 2017), which, diverging from the belief that size and shape are inherent object features (e.g., de Beeck et al., 2008; Konkle & Oliva, 2011), posits that human body scale (e.g., size) constrains the perception of objects and the generation of motor responses.”

      (p 17, ln 365) “Existing psychological studies, especially in the field of vision, define objects in a disembodied manner, primarily relying on their physical properties such as shape (e.g., de Beeck et al., 2008) and absolute size (e.g., Konkle & Oliva, 2011).”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      (1) Even after several readings, it is not entirely clear to me what the authors are proposing and to what extent the conducted work actually speaks to this. In the introduction, the authors write that they seek to test if body size serves not merely as a reference for object manipulation but also "plays a pivotal role in shaping the representation of objects." This motivation seems rather vague motivation and it is not clear to me how it could be falsified.

      Similarly, in the discussion, the authors write that large objects do not receive "proper affordance representation," and are "not the range of objects with which the animal is intrinsically inclined to interact, but probably considered a less interesting component of the environment." This statement seems similarly vague and completely beyond the collected data, which did not assess object discriminability or motivational values.

      Overall, the lack of theoretical precision makes it difficult to judge the appropriateness of the approaches and the persuasiveness of the obtained results. This is partly due to the fact that the authors do not spell out all of their theoretical assumptions in the introduction but insert new "speculations" to motivate the corresponding parts of the results section. I would strongly suggest clarifying the theoretical rationale and explaining in more detail how the chosen experiments allow them to test falsifiable predictions.

      R1: We are sorry for the confusion about the theoretical motivation and rationale. Our motivation is on the long-lasting debate regarding the representation versus direct perception of affordance. That is, we tested whether object affordance would simply covary with its continuous constraints such as object size, in line with the representation-free view, or, whether affordance would be ‘representationalized’, in line with the representation-based view, under the constrain of body size. In revision, we have clarified the motivation and its relation to our approach:

      In the introduction (p 2, ln 45): “However, the question of how object perception is influenced by the relative size of objects in relation to the human body remains open. Specifically, it is unclear whether this relative size simply acts as a continuous variable for locomotion reference, or if it affects differentiating and organizing object representations based on their ensued affordances.”

      In the discussion (p 14, ln 295): “One long-lasting debate on affordance centers on the distinction between representational and direct perception of affordance. An outstanding theme shared by many embodied theories of cognition is the replacement hypothesis (e.g., Van Gelder, 1998), which challenges the necessity of representation as posited by computationalism’s cognitive theories (e.g., Fodor, 1975). This hypothesis suggests that input is discretized/categorized and subjected to abstraction or symbolization, creating discrete stand-ins for the input (e.g., representations/states). Such representationalization would lead to a categorization between the affordable (the objects) and those beyond affordance (the environment). Accordingly, computational theories propose the emergence of affordance perception, in contrast to the perspective offered by embodied theories. The present study probed this ‘representationalization’ of affordance by examining whether affordance perception introduces discontinuity and qualitative dissociation in response to continuous action-related physical features (such as object size relative to the agents), which allows sensorimotor input to be assigned into discrete states/kinds, in line with the representation-based view under the constraints of body size. Alternatively, it assessed whether activity directly mirrors the input, free from discretization/categorization/abstraction, in line with the representation-free view.

      First, our study found evidence demonstrating discretization in affordance perception. Then, through the body imagination experiment, we provided causal evidence suggesting that this discretization originates from sensorimotor interactions with objects rather than amodal sources, such as abstract object concepts independent of agent motor capability. Finally, we demonstrated the supramodality of this embodied discontinuity by leveraging the recent advances in AI. We showed that the discretization in affordance perception is supramodally accessible to disembodied agents such as large language models (LLMs), which lack sensorimotor input but can access linguistic materials built upon discretized representations. These results collectively suggest that sensorimotor input undergoes discretization, as implied in the computationalism’s idea of representation. Note that, these results are not contradictory to the claim of the embodied theories, as these representations do shape processes beyond the sensorimotor domain but after discretization.

      The observed boundary in affordance perception extends the understanding of the discontinuity in perception in response to the continuity of physical inputs (Harnad, 1987; Young et al., 1997).”

      We are also sorry for the confusion about the expression “proper affordance representation”. We intended to express that the neural responses to objects beyond the boundary in the whole brain failed to reflect affordance congruency, and therefore did not show evidence of affordance processing. We have clarified this expression in the revised manuscript:

      (p 12, ln 265) “Taken together, the affordance boundary not only separated the objects into two categories based on their relative size to human body, but also delineated the range of objects that evoked neural representations associated with affordance processing.”

      Finally, we agree with the reviewer that the expressions, such as “not…inclined to interact” and “probably considered a less interesting component of the environment”, may be misleading. Rather, we intended to express that the objects beyond the affordance boundary is generally beyond the motor capacities of the very animal, being too large for the very animal to manipulated, as comparing to the smaller objects in the environment, may not be a typical target object for manipulation for the animal. We have revised these expressions in the manuscript and clarified their speculative nature:

      (p 16, ln 340) “In contrast, objects larger than that range typically surpass the animal’s motor capabilities, rendering them too cumbersome for effective manipulation. Consequently, these larger objects are less likely to be considered as typical targets for manipulation by the animal, as opposed to the smaller objects. That is, they are perceived not as the “objects” in the animal’s eye, but as part of the background environment, due to their impracticality for direct interactions.”

      (2) The authors used only a very small set of objects and affordances in their study and they do not describe in sufficient detail how these stimuli were selected. This renders the results rather exploratory and clearly limits their potential to discover general principles of human perception. Much larger sets of objects and affordances and explicit data-driven approaches for their selection would provide a far more convincing approach and allow the authors to rule out that their results are just a consequence of the selected set of objects and actions.

      R2: The selection of the objects and affordances in this study was guided by two key criteria. First, the objects were selected from the dataset published in Konkle and Oliva's study (2011), which systematically investigates the effect of object size on object recognition. Therefore, the range of object sizes, from 14 cm to 7,618 cm, is well-calibrated and represents a typical array of object sizes found in the real world. Second, the actions were selected to cover a wide range of daily humans objects/environments interactions, from single-point movements (e.g., hand, foot) to whole-body movements (e.g., lying, standing), based on the kinetics human action video dataset (Kay et al., 2017). Thus, this set of objects and actions is a sufficiently representative of typic human experiences. In revision, we have clarified these two criteria in the methods section:

      (p 22, ln 517) “The full list of objects, their diagonal sizes, and size rankings were provided in Supplementary Table S6. The objects were selected from the dataset in Konkle and Oliva’s study (2011) to cover typic object sizes in the world (ranging from 14 cm to 7,618 cm), and actions related to these objects were selected to span a spectrum of daily humans-objects/environments interactions, from single-point movements (e.g., hand, foot) to whole-body movements (e.g., lying, standing), based on the Kinetics Human Action Video Dataset (Kay et al., 2017).”

      Having said this, we agree with reviewer that a larger set of objects and actions will facilitate finer localization of the representational discontinuity, which can be addressed in future studies

      (p 16, ln 344): “…, due to their impracticality for direct interactions. Future studies should incorporate a broader range of objects and a more comprehensive set of affordances for finer delineation of the representational discontinuity between objects and the environment.”

      (3) Relatedly, the authors could be more thorough in ruling out potential alternative explanations. Object size likely correlates with other variables that could shape human similarity judgments and the estimated boundary is quite broad (depending on the method, either between 80 and 150 cm or between 105 to 130 cm). More precise estimates of the boundary and more rigorous tests of alternative explanations would add a lot to strengthen the authors' interpretation.

      R3: We agree with the reviewer that correlation analyses alone cannot rule out alternative explanations, as any variable co-varying with object sizes might also affect affordance perception. Therefore, our study experimentally manipulated the imagined body sizes, while keeping other variable constant across conditions. This approach provided evidence of a causal connection between body size and affordance perception, effectively ruling out alternative explanations. In revision, the rationale of experimentally manipulation of imagined body sizes has been clarified

      (p 7, ln 152): “One may argue that the location of the affordance boundary coincidentally fell within the range of human body size, rather than being directly influenced by it. To rule out this possibility, we directly manipulated participants’ body schema, referring to an experiential and dynamic functioning of the living body within its environment (Merleau-Ponty & Smith, 1962). This allowed us to examine whether the affordance boundary would shift in response to changes in the imagined body size. This experimental approach was able to establish a causal link between body size and affordance boundary, as other potential factors remained constant. Specifically, we instructed a new group of participants to imagine themselves as small as a cat (typical diagonal size: 77cm, size rank 4, referred to as the “cat condition”), and another new group to envision themselves as large as an elephant (typical diagonal size: 577 cm, size rank 7, referred to as the “elephant condition”) throughout the task (Fig. 2a).”

      Meanwhile, with correlational analysis, precise location of the boundary cannot help ruling out alternative explanation. However, we agree that future studies are needed to incorporate a broader range of objects and a more comprehensive set of affordances. For details, please see R2.

      (4) Even though the division of the set of objects into two homogenous clusters appears defensible, based on visual inspection of the results, the authors should consider using more formal analysis to justify their interpretation of the data. A variety of metrics exist for cluster analysis (e.g., variation of information, silhouette values) and solutions are typically justified by convergent evidence across different metrics. I would recommend the authors consider using a more formal approach to their cluster definition using some of those metrics.

      R4: We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We performed three analyses on this point, all of which consistently indicated the division of objects into two distinct groups along the object size axis.

      First, a hierarchical clustering analysis of the heatmaps revealed a two-maincluster structure, which is now detailed in the revised methods section (p 25, ln 589) “A hierarchical clustering analysis was performed, employing the seaborn clustermap method with Euclidean distance and Complete linkage (Waskom, 2021).”

      Second, the similarity in affordances between neighbouring size ranks revealed the same two-main-cluster structure. In this analysis, each object was assigned a realworld size rank, and then Pearson’s correlation was calculated as the affordance similarity index for each pair of neighbouring size ranks to assess how similar the perceived affordances were between these ranks. Our results showed a clear trough in affordance similarity, with the lowest point approaching zero, while affordance similarities between neighbouring ranks on either side of the boundary remained high, confirming the observation that objects formed two groups based on affordance similarity.

      Finally, we analysed silhouette values for this clustering analysis, where 𝑎𝑖 represents the mean intra-cluster distance, and 𝑏𝑖 represents the mean nearest-cluster distance for each data point i. The silhouette coefficient is calculated as (Rousseeuw, 1987):

      The silhouette analysis revealed that the maximum silhouette value coefficient corresponded to a cluster number of two, further confirming the two-cluster structure (please see Author response table 2 below).

      Author response table 2.

      The silhouette values of a k-means clustering when k (number of clusters) = 2 to 10

      (5) While I appreciate the manipulation of imagined body size, as a way to solidify the link between body size and affordance perception, I find it unfortunate that this is implemented in a between-subjects design, as this clearly leaves open the possibility of pre-existing differences between groups. I certainly disagree with the authors' statement that their findings suggest "a causal link between body size and affordance perception."

      R5: The between-subjects design in the imagination experiment was employed to prevent contamination between conditions. Specifically, after imagining oneself as a particular size, it can be challenging to immediately transition to envisioning a different body size. In addition, participating sequentially participate in two conditions that only differ in imagined body sizes may lead to undesirable response strategies, such as deliberately altering responses to the same objects in the different conditions. The reason of employing the between-subjects design is now clarified in the revised text (p 7, ln 161): “A between-subject design was adopted to minimize contamination between conditions. This manipulation was effective, as evidenced by the participants’ reported imagined heights in the cat condition being 42 cm (SD = 25.6) and 450 cm (SD = 426.8) in the elephant condition on average, respectively, when debriefed at the end of the task.”

      Further, to address the concern that “pre-existing differences between groups” would generate this very result, we adhered to standard protocols such as random assignment of participants to different conditions (cat-size versus elephant-size). Moreover, experimentally manipulating one variable (i.e., body schema) to observe its effect on another variable (i.e., affordance boundary) is the standard method for establishing causal relationships between variables. We could not think of other better ways for this objective.

      (6) The use of LLMs in the current study is not clearly motivated and I find it hard to understand what exactly the authors are trying to test through their inclusion. As noted above, I think that the authors should discuss the putative roles of conceptual knowledge, language, and sensorimotor experience already in the introduction to avoid ambiguity about the derived predictions and the chosen methodology. As it currently stands, I find it hard to discern how the presence of perceptual boundaries in LLMs could constitute evidence for affordance-based perception.

      R6: The motivation of LLMs is to test the supramodality of this embodied discontinuity found in behavioral experiments: whether this discontinuity is accessible beyond the sensorimotor domain. To do this, we leveraged the recent advance in AI and tested whether the discretization observed in affordance perception is supramodally accessible to disembodied agents which lack access to sensorimotor input but only have access to the linguistic materials built upon discretized representations, such as large language models (LLM). The theoretical motivation and rationale regarding the LLM study are now included in the introduction and discussion:

      In the introduction (p 2, ln 59) “…, and the body may serve as a metric that facilitates meaningful engagement with the environment by differentiating objects that are accessible for interactions from those not. Further, grounded cognition theory (see Barsalou, 2008 for a review) suggests that the outputs of such differentiation might transcend sensorimotor processes and integrate into supramodal concepts and language. From this perspective, we proposed two hypotheses...”

      In the introduction (p 3, ln 70) “Notably, the affordance boundary varied in response to the imagined body sizes and showed supramodality. It could also be attained solely through language, as evidenced by the large language model (LLM), ChatGPT (OpenAI, 2022).”

      For details in the discussion, please see R1.

      (7) Along the same lines, the fMRI study also provides very limited evidence to support the authors' claims. The use of congruency effects as a way of probing affordance perception is not well motivated. What exactly can we infer from the fact a region may be more active when an object is paired with an activity that the object doesn't afford? The claim that "only the affordances of objects within the range of body size were represented in the brain" certainly seems far beyond the data.

      R7: In our study, we followed the established fMRI research paradigm of employing the congruent effect as a measure of affordance processing (e.g., Kourtis et al., 2018). The choice of this paradigm has now been clarified in the revised manuscript (p 11, ln 244): “The congruency effect, derived from the contrast of Congruent versus Incongruent conditions, is a well-established measure of affordance processing (e.g., Kourtis et al., 2018).”

      The statement that “only the affordances of objects within the range of body size were represented in the brain” is based on the observed interaction of congruency by object size. In the revised text, we have weakened this statement to better align with the direct implications of the interaction effect (p 1 ln 22): “A subsequent fMRI experiment revealed evidence of affordance processing exclusively for objects within the body size range, but not for those beyond. This suggests that only objects capable of being manipulated are the objects capable of offering affordance in the eyes of an organism.”

      (8) Importantly (related to my comments under 2) above), the very small set of objects and affordances in this experiment heavily complicates any conclusions about object size being the crucial variable determining the occurrence of congruency effects.

      R8: The objective of the fMRI study was to provide the neural basis for the affordance discontinuity found in behaviour experiments. In other words, the fMRI study is not an exploratory experiment, and therefore, the present object and action sets, which are based on the behaviour experiments, are sufficient.

      (9) I would also suggest providing a more comprehensive illustration of the results (including the effects of CONGRUENCY, OBJECT SIZE, and their interaction at the whole-brain level).

      R9: We agree and in revision, we have now included these analyses in the supplementary material (p 30, ln 711): “For the whole-brain analyses on the congruency effect, the object size effect, and their interaction, see Supplementary Fig. S4 and Table S2 to S5.” Please see Author response image 2 (New Supplementary Fig. S4) and Author responses tables 3 to 5 (New Supplementary Table S2 to S4) below.

      Author response image 2.

      Significant brain activations of different contrasts in the whole-brain level analysis. a, the effect of object type, positive values (warm color) indicated higher activation for objects within than objects beyond and negative values (cold color) indicated the opposite. b, the effect of congruency, positive values indicated higher activation in congruent than incongruent condition. c, the effect of interaction between object type and congruency, positive values indicated the larger congruency effect for objects within than beyond. d, the congruency effect for objects within. All contrasts were corrected with cluster-level correction at p < .05. The detailed cluster-level results for each contrast map can be found in Supplementary Table S2 to S5.

      Author response table 3.

      Cortical regions reaching significance in the contrasts of (A) objects within versus object beyond and (B) objects beyond versus objects within, whole-brain analysis (R = right hemisphere, L = left hemisphere; Z > 2.3, p = 0.05, cluster corrected).

      Author response table 4.

      Cortical regions reaching significance in contrasts of (A) congruent versus incongruent and (B) incongruent versus congruent, whole-brain analysis (R = right hemisphere, L = left hemisphere; Z > 2.3, p = 0.05, cluster corrected).

      Author response table 5.

      Review Table 5 (New Supplementary Table S4). Cortical regions showing significant interaction between object type and congruency, whole-brain analysis (OW = Objects within, OB = Objects beyond; R = right hemisphere, L = left hemisphere; Z > 2.3, p = 0.05, cluster corrected)

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      a. >a) Clarify all theoretical assumptions already within the introduction and specify how the predictions are tested (and how they could be falsified).

      Ra: Please see R1.

      b. >b) Explain how the chosen experimental approach relates to the theoretical questions under investigation (e.g., it is not clear to me how affordance similarity ratings can inform inference about which part of the environment is perceived as more or less manipulable).

      Rb: We thank the reviewer for the suggestion, and the theoretical motivation and rationale are now clarified. For details, please see R1.

      c. >c) Include a much larger set of objects and affordances in the behavioural experiments (that is more generalizable and also permits a more precise estimation of the boundary), and use a more rigorous methodology to justify a particular cluster solution.

      Rc: Please see R2 for the limited variance of objects and actions, and R4 for more analyses on the boundary.

      d. >d) Clearly motivate what the use of LLMs can contribute to the study of affordance perception.

      Rd: Please see R6.

      e) Clearly motivate why congruency effects are thought to index "affordance representation in the brain" Re: Please see R7.

      e) Include a much larger set of objects and affordances in the fMRI study.

      Re: Please see R7.

      f) Consider toning down the main conclusions based on the limitations outlined above.

      Rf: We have toned down the main conclusions accordingly.

      We are profoundly grateful for the insightful comments and suggestions provided by the three reviewers, which have greatly improved the quality of this manuscript.   References

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We sincerely thank the reviewers for their in-depth consideration of our manuscript and their helpful reviews. Their efforts have made the paper much better. We have responded to each point. The previously provided public responses have been updated they are included after the private response for convenience.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1. In general, the manuscript will benefit from copy editing and proof reading. Some obvious edits;

      2. Page 6 line 140. Do the authors mean Cholera toxin B?

      Response: We corrected this error and went through the entire paper carefully correcting for grammar and increased clarity.

      • Page 8 line 173. Methylbetacyclodextrin is misspelled.

      Response: Yes, corrected.

      • Figure 4c is missing representative traces for electrophysiology data.

      • Figure 4. Please check labeling ordering in figure legend as it does not match the panels in the figure.

      Thank you for the correction and we apologize for the confusion in figure 4. We uploaded an incomplete figure legend, and the old panel ‘e’ was not from an experiment that was still in the figure. It was removed and the figure legends are now corrected.

      • Please mention the statistical analysis used in all figure legends.

      Response: Thank you for pointing out this omission, statistics have been added.

      • Although the schematics in each figure helps guide readers, they are very inconsistent and sometimes confusing. For example, in Figure 5 the gating model is far-reaching without conclusive evidence, whereas in Figure 6 it is over simplified and unclear what the image is truly representing (granted that the downstream signaling mechanism and channel is not known).

      Response: Figure 5d is the summary figure for the entire paper. We have made this clearer in the figure legend and we deleted the title above the figure that gave the appearance that the panel relates to swell only. It is the proposed model based on what we show in the paper and what is known about the activation mechanism of TREK-1.

      Figure 6 is supposed to be simple. It is to help the reader understand that when PA is low mechanical sensitivity is high. Without the graphic, previous reviewers got confused about threshold going down and mechanosensitivity going up and how the levels of PA relate. Low PA= high sensitivity. We’ve added a downstream effector to the right side of the panel to avoid any biased to a putative downstream channel effector. The purpose of the experiment is to show PLD has a mechanosensitive phenotype in vivo.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This manuscript outlines some really interesting findings demonstrating a mechanism by which mechanically driven alterations in molecular distributions can influence a) the activity of the PLD2 molecule and subsequently b) the activation of TREK-1 when mechanical inputs are applied to a cell or cell membrane.

      The results presented here suggest that this redistribution of molecules represents a modulatory mechanism that alters either the amplitude or the sensitivity of TREK-1 mediated currents evoked by membrane stretch. While the authors do present values for the pressure required to activate 50% of channels (P50), the data presented provides incomplete evidence to conclude a shift in threshold of the currents, given that many of the current traces provided in the supplemental material do not saturate within the stimulus range, thus limiting the application of a Boltzmann fit to determine the P50. I suggest adding additional context to enable readers to better assess the limitations of this use of the Boltzmann fit to generate a P50, or alternately repeating the experiments to apply stimuli up to lytic pressures to saturate the mechanically evoked currents, enabling use of the Boltzmann function to fit the data.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We agree the currents did not reach saturation. Hence the term P50 could be misleading, so we have removed it from the paper. We now say “half maximal” current measured from non-saturating pressures of 0-60 mmHg. We also deleted the xPLD data in supplemental figure 3C since there is insufficient current to realistically estimate a half maximal response.

      In my opinion, the conclusions presented in this manuscript would be strengthened by an assessment of the amount of TREK-1 in the plasma membrane pre and post application of shear. While the authors do present imaging data in the supplementary materials, these data are insufficiently precise to comment on expression levels in the membrane. To strengthen this conclusion the authors could conduct cell surface biotinylation assays, as a more sensitive and quantitative measure of membrane localisation of the proteins of interest.

      1. Response: as mentioned previously, we do not have an antibody to the extracellular domain. Nonetheless to better address this concern we directly compared the levels of TREK-1, PIP2, and GM1; in xPLD2, mPLD2, enPLD2 with and without shear. The results are in supplemental figure 2. PLD2 is known to increase endocytosis1 and xPLD2 is known to block both agonist induced and constitutive endocytosis of µ-opioid receptor2. The receptor is trapped on the surface. This is true of many proteins including Rho3, ARF4, and ACE21 among others. In agreement with this mechanism, in Figure S2C,G we show that TREK increases with xPLD and the localization can clearly be seen at the plasma membrane just like in all of the other publications with xPLD overexpression. xPLD2 would be expected to inhibit the basal current but we presume the increased expression likely has compensated and there is sufficient PA and PG from other sources to allow for the basal current. It is in this state that we then conduct our ephys and monitor with a millisecond time resolution and see no activation. We are deriving conclusion from a very clear response—Figure 1b shows almost no current, even at 1-10 ms after applying pressure. There is little pressure current when we know the channel is present and capable of conducting ion (Figure 1d red bar). After shear there is a strong decrease in TREK-1 currents on the membrane in the presence of xPLD2. But it is not less than TREK-1 expression with mPLD2. And since mouse PLD2 has the highest basal current and pressure activation current. The amount of TREK-1 present is sufficient to conduct large current. To have almost no detective current would require at least a 10 fold reduction compared to mPLD2 levels before we would lack the sensitivity to see a channel open. Lasty endocytosis typically in on the order of seconds to minutes, no milliseconds.

      2. We have shown an addition 2 independent ways that TREK-1 is on the membrane during our stretch experiments. Figure 1d shows the current immediately prior to applying pressure for wt TREK-1. When catalytically dead PLD is present (xPLD2) there is almost normal basal current. The channel is clearly present. And then in figure 1a we show within a millisecond there is no pressure current. As a control we added a functionally dead TREK-1 truncation (xTREK). Compared to xPLD2 there is clearly normal basal current. If this is not strong evidence the channel was available on the surface for mechanical activation please help us understand why. And if you think within 2.1 ms 100% of the channel is gone by endocytosis please provide some evidence that this is possible so we can reconsider.

      3. We have TIRF super resolution imaging with ~20 nm x-y resolution and ~ 100nm z resolution and Figure 2b clearly shows the channel on the membrane. When we apply pressure in 1b, the channel is present.

      4. Lastly, In our previous studies we showed activation of PLD2 by anesthetics was responsible for all of TREK-1’s anesthetic sensitivity and this was through PLD2 binding to the C-terminus of TREK-15. We showed this was the case by transferring anesthetic sensitivity to an anesthetic insensitive homolog TRAAK. This established conclusively the basic premise of our mechanism. Here we show the same C-terminal region and PLD2 are responsible for the mechanical current observed by TREK-1. TRAAK is already mechanosensitive so the same chimera will not work for our purposes here. But anesthetic activation and mechanical activation are dramatically different stimuli, and the fact that the role of PLD is robustly observed in both should be considered.

      The authors discuss that the endogenous levels of TREK-1 and PLD2 are "well correlated: in C2C12 cells, that TREK-1 displayed little pair correlation with GM1 and that a "small amount of TREK-1 trafficked to PIP2". As such, these data suggest that the data outlined for HEK293T cells may be hampered by artefacts arising from overexpression. Can TREK-1 currents be activated by membrane stretch in these cells C2C12 cells and are they negatively impacted by the presence of xPLD2? Answering this question would provide more insight into the proposed mechanism of action of PLD2 outlined by the authors in this manuscript. If no differences are noted, the model would be called into question. It could be that there are additional cell-specific factors that further regulate this process.

      Response: The low pair correlation of TREK-1 and GM1 in C2C12 cells was due to insufficient levels of cholesterol in the cell membrane to allow for robust domain formation. In Figure 4b we loaded C2C12 cells with cholesterol using the endogenous cholesterol transport protein apoE and serum (an endogenous source of cholesterol). As can be seen in Fig. 4b, the pair correlation dramatically increased (purple line). This was also true in neuronal cells (N2a) (Fig 4d, purple bar). And shear (3 dynes/cm2) caused the TREK-1 that was in the GM1 domains to leave (red bar) reversing the effect of high cholesterol. This demonstrates our proposed mechanism is working as we expect with endogenously expressed proteins.

      There are many channels in C2C12 cells, it would be difficult to isolate TREK-1 currents, which is why we replicated the entire system (ephys and dSTORM) in HEK cells. Note, in figure 4c we also show that adding cholesterol inhibits TREK-1 whole cell currents in HEK293cells.

      As mentioned in the public review, the behavioural experiments in D. melanogaster can not solely be attributed to a change in threshold. While there may be a change in the threshold to drive a different behaviour, the writing is insufficiently precise to make clear that conclusions cannot be drawn from these experiments regarding the functional underpinnings of this outcome. Are there changes in resting membrane potential in the mutant flys? Alterations in Nav activity? Without controlling for these alternate explanations it is difficult to see what this last piece of data adds to the manuscript, particularly given the lack of TREK-1 in this organism. At the very least, some editing of the text to more clearly indicate that these data can only be used to draw conclusions on the change in threshold for driving the behaviour not the change in threshold of the actual mechanotransduction event (i.e. conversion of the mechanical stimulus into an electrochemical signal).

      Response: We agree; features other than PLDs direct mechanosensitivity are likely contributing. This was shown in figure 6g left side. We have an arrow going to ion channel and to other downstream effectors. We’ve added the putative alteration to downstream effectors to the right side of the panel. This should make it clear that we no more speculate the involvement of a channel than any of the other many potential downstream effectors. As mentioned above, the figure helps the reader coordinate low PA with increased mechanosensitivity. Without the graphic reviewers got confused that PA increased the threshold which corresponds to a decreased sensitivity to pain. Nonetheless we removed our conclusion about fly thresholds from the abstract and made clearer in the main text the lack of mechanism downstream of PLD in flies including endocytosis. Supplemental Figure S2H also helps emphasize this. .

      Nav channels are interesting, and since PLD contribute to endocytosis and Nav channels are also regulated by endocytosis there is likely a PLD specific effect using Nav channels. There are many ways PA likely regulates mechanosensitive thresholds, but we feel Nav is beyond the scope of our paper. Someone else will need to do those studies. We have amended a paragraph in the conclusion which clearly states we do not know the specific mechanism at work here with the suggestions for future research to discover the role of lipid and lipid-modifying enzymes in mechanosensitive neurons.

      There may be fundamental flaws in how the statistics have been conducted. The methods section indicates that all statistical testing was performed with a Student's t-test. A visual scan of many of the data sets in the figures suggests that they are not normally distributed, thus a parametric test such as a Student's t-test is not valid. The authors should assess if each data set is normally distributed, and if not, a non-parametric statistical test should be applied. I recommend assessing the robustness of the statistical analyses and adjusting as necessary.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, indeed there is some asymmetry in Figure 6C-d. The p values with Mann Whitney were slightly improved p=0.016 and p=0.0022 for 6c and 6d respectively. For reference, the students t-test had slightly worse statistics p=0.040 and p=0.0023. The score remained the same 1 and 2 stars respectively.

      The references provided for the statement regarding cascade activation of the TRPs are incredibly out of date. While it is clear that TRPV4 can be activated by a second messenger cascade downstream of osmotic swelling of cells, TRPV4 has also been shown to be activated by mechanical inputs at the cell-substrate interface, even when the second messenger cascade is inhibited. Recommend updating the references to reflect more current understanding of channel activation.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have updated the references and changed the comment to “can be” instead of “are”. The reference is more general to multiple ion channel types including KCNQ4. This should avoid any perceived conflict with the cellsubstrate interface mechanism which we very much agree is a correct mechanism for TRP channels.

      Minor comments re text editing etc:

      The central messages of the manuscript would benefit from extensive work to increase the precision of the writing of the manuscript and the presentation of data in the figures, such textual changes alone would help address a number of the concerns outlined in this review, by clarifying some ambiguities. There are numerous errors throughout, ranging from grammatical issues, ambiguities with definitions, lack of scale bars in images, lack of labels on graph axes, lack of clarity due to the mode of presentation of sample numbers (it would be far more precise to indicate specific numbers for each sample rather than a range, which is ambiguous and confusing), unnecessary and repeat information in the methods section. Below are some examples but this list is not exhaustive.

      Response: Thank you, reviewer # 1 also had many of these concerns. We have gone through the entire paper and improved the precision of the writing of the manuscript. We have also added the missing error bar to Figure 6. And axis labels have been added to the inset images. The redundancy in cell culture methods has been removed. Where a range is small and there are lots of values, the exact number of ‘n’ are graphically displayed in the dot plot for each condition.

      Text:

      I recommend considering how to discuss the various aspects of channel activation. A convention in the field is to use mechanical activation or mechanical gating to describe that process where the mechanical stimulus is directly coupled to the channel gating mechanism. This would be the case for the activation of TREK-1 by membrane stretch alone. The increase in activation by PLD2 activity then reflects a modulation of the mechanical activation of the channel, because the relevant gating stimulus is PA, rather than force/stretch. The sum of these events could be described as shear-evoked or mechanically-evoked, TREK-1 mediated currents (thus making it clear that the mechanical stimulus initiates the relevant cascade, but the gating stimulus may be other than direct mechanical input.) Given the interesting and compelling data offered in this manuscript regarding the sensitisation of TREK-1 dependent mechanicallyevoked currents by PLD2, an increase in the precision of the language would help convey the central message of this work.

      Response; We agree there needs to be convention. We have taken the suggestion of mechanically evoked and we suggest the following definitions:

      1. Mechanical activation of PLD2: direct force on the lipids releasing PLD2 from nonactivating lipids.

      2. Mechanical activation/gating of TREK1: direct force from lipids from either tension or hydrophobic mismatch that opens the channel.

      3. Mechanically evoked: a mechanical event that leads to a downstream effect. The effect is mechanically “evoked”.

      4. Spatial patterning/biochemistry: nanoscopic changes in the association of a protein with a nanoscopic lipid cluster or compartment.

      An example of where discussion of mechanical activation is ambiguous in the text is found at line 109: "channel could be mechanically activated by a movement from GM1 to PIP2 lipids." In this case, the sentence could be suggesting that the movement between lipids provides the mechanical input that activates the channel, which is not what the data suggest.

      Response: Were possible we have replaced “movement” with “spatial patterning” and “association” and “dissociation” from specific lipid compartment. This better reflects the data we have in this paper. However, we do think that a movement mechanically activates the channel, GM1 lipids are thick and PIP2 lipids are thin, so movement between the lipids could activate the channel through direct lipid interaction. We will address this aspect in a future paper.

      Inconsistencies with usage:

      • TREK1 versus TREK-1

      Response: corrected to TREK-1

      • mPLD2 versus PLD2

      Response: where PLD2 represents mouse this has been corrected.

      • K758R versus xPLD2

      Response: we replaced K758R in the methods with xPLD2.

      • HEK293T versus HEK293t Response: we have changed all instances to read HEK293T.

      • Drosophila melanogaster and D. melanogaster used inconsistently and in many places incorrectly

      Response: we have read all to read the common name Drosophila.

      Line 173: misspelled methylbetacyclodextrin

      Response corrected

      Line 174: degree symbol missing

      Response corrected

      Line 287: "the decrease in cholesterol likely evolved to further decrease the palmate order in the palmitate binding site"... no evidence, no support for this statement, falsely attributes intention to evolutionary processes .

      Response: we have removed the reference to evolution at the request of the reviewer, it is not necessary. But we do wish to note that to our knowledge, all biological function is scientifically attributed to evolution. The fact that cholesterol decreases in response to shear is evidence alone that the cell evolved to do it.

      Line 307: grammatical error

      Response: the redundant Lipid removed.

      Line 319: overinterpreted - how is the mechanosensitivy of GPCRs explained by this translocation?

      Response: all G-alpha subunits of the GPCR complex are palmitoylated. We showed PLD (which has the same lipidation) is mechanically activated. If the palmitate site is disrupted for PLD2, then it is likely disrupted for every G-alpha subunit as well.

      Line 582: what is the wild type referred to here?

      Response: human full length with a GFP tag.

      Methods:

      • Sincere apologies if I missed something but I do not recall seeing any experiments using purified TREK-1 or flux assays. These details should be removed from the methods section

      Response: Removed.

      • There is significant duplication of detail across the methods (three separate instances of electrophysiology details) these could definitely be consolidated.

      Response: Duplicates removed.

      Figures:

      • Figure 2- b box doesn't correspond to inset. Bottom panel should provide overview image for the cell that was assessed with shear. In bottom panel, circle outlines an empty space.

      Response: We have widened the box slightly to correspond so the non shear box corresponds to the middle panel. We have also added the picture for the whole cell to Fig S2g and outlined the zoom shown in the bottom panel of Fig 2b as requested. The figure is of the top of a cell. We also added the whole cell image of a second sheared cell.

      Author response image 1.

      • Figure 3 b+c: inset graph lacking axis labels

      Response; the inset y axis is the same as the main axis. We added “pair corr. (5nM)” and a description in the figure legend to make this clearer. The purpose of the inset is to show statistical significance at a single point. The contrast has been maximized but without zooming in points can be difficult to see.

      • Figure 5: replicate numbers missing and individual data points lacking in panels b + c, no labels of curve in b + c, insets, unclear what (5 nm) refers to in insets.

      Response: Thank you for pointing out these errors. The N values have been added. Similar to figure 3, the inset is a bar graph of the pair correlation data at 5 nm. A better explanation of the data has been added to the figure legend.

      • Figure 6: no scale bar, no clear membrane localization evident from images presented, panel g offers virtually nothing in terms of insight

      Response: We have added scale bars to figure 6b. Figure 6g is intentionally simplistic, we found that correlating decreased threshold with increased pain was confusing. A previous reviewer claimed our data was inconsistent. The graphic avoids this confusion. We also added negative effects of low PA on downstream effects to the right panel. This helps graphically show we don’t know the downstream effects.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor suggestions:

      1. line 162, change 'heat' to 'temperature'.

      Response: changed.

      1. in figure 1, it would be helpful to keep the unit for current density consistent among different panels. 1e is a bit confusing: isn't the point of Figure 1 that most of TREK1 activation is not caused by direct force-sensing?

      Response: Yes, the point of figure 1 is to show that in a biological membrane over expressed TREK-1 is a downstream effector of PLD2 mechanosensation which is indirect. We agree the figure legend in the previous version of the paper is very confusing.

      There is almost no PLD2 independent current in our over expressed system, which is represented by no ions in the conduction pathway of the channel despite there being tension on the membrane.

      Purified TREK-1 is only mechanosensitive in a few select lipids, primarily crude Soy PC. It was always assumed that HEK293 and Cos cells had the correct lipids since over expressed TREK-1 responded to mechanical force in these lipids. But that does not appear to be correct, or at least only a small amount of TREK-1 is in the mechanosensitive lipids. Figure 1e graphically shows this. The arrows indicate tension, but the channel isn’t open with xPLD2 present. We added a few sentences to the discussion to further clarify.

      Panels c has different units because the area of the tip was measured whereas in d the resistance of the tip was measured. They are different ways for normalizing for small differences in tip size.

      1. line 178, ~45 of what?

      Response: Cells were fixed for ~30 sec.

      1. line 219 should be Figure 4f?

      Response: thank you, yes Figure 4f.

      Previous public reviews with minor updates.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Force sensing and gating mechanisms of the mechanically activated ion channels is an area of broad interest in the field of mechanotransduction. These channels perform important biological functions by converting mechanical force into electrical signals. To understand their underlying physiological processes, it is important to determine gating mechanisms, especially those mediated by lipids. The authors in this manuscript describe a mechanism for mechanically induced activation of TREK-1 (TWIK-related K+ channel. They propose that force induced disruption of ganglioside (GM1) and cholesterol causes relocation of TREK-1 associated with phospholipase D2 (PLD2) to 4,5-bisphosphate (PIP2) clusters, where PLD2 catalytic activity produces phosphatidic acid that can activate the channel. To test their hypothesis, they use dSTORM to measure TREK-1 and PLD2 colocalization with either GM1 or PIP2. They find that shear stress decreases TREK-1/PLD2 colocalization with GM1 and relocates to cluster with PIP2. These movements are affected by TREK-1 C-terminal or PLD2 mutations suggesting that the interaction is important for channel re-location. The authors then draw a correlation to cholesterol suggesting that TREK-1 movement is cholesterol dependent. It is important to note that this is not the only method of channel activation and that one not involving PLD2 also exists. Overall, the authors conclude that force is sensed by ordered lipids and PLD2 associates with TREK-1 to selectively gate the channel. Although the proposed mechanism is solid, some concerns remain.

      1) Most conclusions in the paper heavily depend on the dSTORM data. But the images provided lack resolution. This makes it difficult for the readers to assess the representative images.

      Response: The images were provided are at 300 dpi. Perhaps the reviewer is referring to contrast in Figure 2? We are happy to increase the contrast or resolution.

      As a side note, we feel the main conclusion of the paper, mechanical activation of TREK-1 through PLD2, depended primarily on the electrophysiology in Figure 1b-c, not the dSTORM. But both complement each other.

      2) The experiments in Figure 6 are a bit puzzling. The entire premise of the paper is to establish gating mechanism of TREK-1 mediated by PLD2; however, the motivation behind using flies, which do not express TREK-1 is puzzling.

      Response: The fly experiment shows that PLD mechanosensitivity is more evolutionarily conserved than TREK-1 mechanosensitivity. We have added this observation to the paper.

      -Figure 6B, the image is too blown out and looks over saturated. Unclear whether the resolution in subcellular localization is obvious or not.

      Response: Figure 6B is a confocal image, it is not dSTORM. There is no dSTORM in Figure 6. We have added the error bars to make this more obvious. For reference, only a few cells would fit in the field of view with dSTORM.

      -Figure 6C-D, the differences in activity threshold is 1 or less than 1g. Is this physiologically relevant? How does this compare to other conditions in flies that can affect mechanosensitivity, for example?

      Response: Yes, 1g is physiologically relevant. It is almost the force needed to wake a fly from sleep (1.2-3.2g). See ref 33. Murphy Nature Pro. 2017.

      3) 70mOsm is a high degree of osmotic stress. How confident are the authors that a cell health is maintained under this condition and b. this does indeed induce membrane stretch? For example, does this stimulation activate TREK-1?

      Response: Yes, osmotic swell activates TREK1. This was shown in ref 19 (Patel et al 1998). We agree the 70 mOsm is a high degree of stress. This needs to be stated better in the paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This manuscript by Petersen and colleagues investigates the mechanistic underpinnings of activation of the ion channel TREK-1 by mechanical inputs (fluid shear or membrane stretch) applied to cells. Using a combination of super-resolution microticopy, pair correlation analysis and electrophysiology, the authors show that the application of shear to a cell can lead to changes in the distribution of TREK-1 and the enzyme PhospholipaseD2 (PLD2), relative to lipid domains defined by either GM1 or PIP2. The activation of TREK-1 by mechanical stimuli was shown to be sensi>zed by the presence of PLD2, but not a catalytically dead xPLD2 mutant. In addition, the activity of PLD2 is increased when the molecule is more associated with PIP2, rather than GM1 defined lipid domains. The presented data do not exclude direct mechanical activation of TREK-1, rather suggest a modulation of TREK-1 activity, increasing sensitivity to mechanical inputs, through an inherent mechanosensitivity of PLD2 activity. The authors additionally claim that PLD2 can regulate transduction thresholds in vivo using Drosophila melanogaster behavioural assays. However, this section of the manuscript overstates the experimental findings, given that it is unclear how the disruption of PLD2 is leading to behavioural changes, given the lack of a TREK-1 homologue in this organism and the lack of supporting data on molecular function in the relevant cells.

      Response: We agree, the downstream effectors of PLD2 mechanosensitivity are not known in the fly. Other anionic lipids have been shown to mediate pain see ref 46 and 47. We do not wish to make any claim beyond PLD2 being an in vivo contributor to a fly’s response to mechanical force. We have removed the speculative conclusions about fly thresholds from the abstract.

      That said we do believe we have established a molecular function at the cellular level. We showed PLD is robustly mechanically activated in a cultured fly cell line (BG2-c2) Figure 6a of the manuscript. And our previous publication established mechanosensation of PLD (Petersen et. al. Nature Com 2016) through mechanical disruption of the lipids. At a minimum, the experiments show PLDs mechanosensitivity is evolutionarily better conserved across species than TREK1.

      This work will be of interest to the growing community of scientists investigating the myriad mechanisms that can tune mechanical sensitivity of cells, providing valuable insight into the role of functional PLD2 in sensi>zing TREK-1 activation in response to mechanical inputs, in some cellular systems.

      The authors convincingly demonstrate that, post application of shear, an alteration in the distribution of TREK-1 and mPLD2 (in HEK293T cells) from being correlated with GM1 defined domains (no shear) to increased correlation with PIP2 defined membrane domains (post shear). These data were generated using super-resolution microticopy to visualise, at sub diffraction resolution, the localisation of labelled protein, compared to labelled lipids. The use of super-resolution imaging enabled the authors to visualise changes in cluster association that would not have been achievable with diffraction limited microticopy. However, the conclusion that this change in association reflects TREK-1 leaving one cluster and moving to another overinterprets these data, as the data were generated from sta>c measurements of fixed cells, rather than dynamic measurements capturing molecular movements.

      When assessing molecular distribution of endogenous TREK-1 and PLD2, these molecules are described as "well correlated: in C2C12 cells" however it is challenging to assess what "well correlated" means, precisely in this context. This limitation is compounded by the conclusion that TREK-1 displayed little pair correlation with GM1 and the authors describe a "small amount of TREK-1 trafficked to PIP2". As such, these data may suggest that the findings outlined for HEK293T cells may be influenced by artefacts arising from overexpression.

      The changes in TREK-1 sensitivity to mechanical activation could also reflect changes in the amount of TREK-1 in the plasma membrane. The authors suggest that the presence of a leak currently accounts for the presence of TREK-1 in the plasma membrane, however they do not account for whether there are significant changes in the membrane localisation of the channel in the presence of mPLD2 versus xPLD2. The supplementary data provide some images of fluorescently labelled TREK-1 in cells, and the authors state that truncating the c-terminus has no effect on expression at the plasma membrane, however these data provide inadequate support for this conclusion. In addition, the data reporting the P50 should be noted with caution, given the lack of saturation of the current in response to the stimulus range.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for his/her concern about expression levels. We did test TREK-1 expression. mPLD decreases TREK-1 expression ~two-fold (see Author response image 2 below). We did not include the mPLD data since TREK-1 was mechanically activated with mPLD. For expression to account for the loss of TREK-1 stretch current (Figure 1b), xPLD would need to block surface expression of TREK-1 prior to stretch. The opposite was true, xPLD2 increased TREK-1 expression (see Figure S2c). Furthermore, we tested the leak current of TREK-1 at 0 mV and 0 mmHg of stretch. Basal leak current was no different with xPLD2 compared to endogenous PLD (Figure 1d; red vs grey bars respectively) suggesting TREK-1 is in the membrane and active when xPLD2 is present. If anything, the magnitude of the effect with xPLD would be larger if the expression levels were equal.

      Author response image 2.

      TREK expression at the plasma membrane. TREK-1 Fluorescence was measured by GFP at points along the plasma membrane. Over expression of mouse PLD2 (mPLD) decrease the amount of full-length TREK-1 (FL TREK) on the surface more than 2-fold compared to endogenously expressed PLD (enPLD) or truncated TREK (TREKtrunc) which is missing the PLD binding site in the C-terminus. Over expression of mPLD had no effect on TREKtrunc.

      Finally, by manipulating PLD2 in D. melanogaster, the authors show changes in behaviour when larvae are exposed to either mechanical or electrical inputs. The depletion of PLD2 is concluded to lead to a reduction in activation thresholds and to suggest an in vivo role for PA lipid signaling in setting thresholds for both mechanosensitivity and pain. However, while the data provided demonstrate convincing changes in behaviour and these changes could be explained by changes in transduction thresholds, these data only provide weak support for this specific conclusion. As the authors note, there is no TREK-1 in D. melanogaster, as such the reported findings could be accounted for by other explanations, not least including potential alterations in the activation threshold of Nav channels required for action potential generation. To conclude that the outcomes were in fact mediated by changes in mechanotransduction, the authors would need to demonstrate changes in receptor potential generation, rather than deriving conclusions from changes in behaviour that could arise from alterations in resting membrane potential, receptor potential generation or the activity of the voltage gated channels required for action potential generation.

      Response: We are willing to restrict the conclusion about the fly behavior as the reviewers see fit. We have shown PLD is mechanosensitivity in a fly cell line, and when we knock out PLD from a fly, the animal exhibits a mechanosensation phenotype. We tried to make it clear in the figure and in the text that we have no evidence of a particular mechanism downstream of PLD mechanosensation.

      This work provides further evidence of the astounding flexibility of mechanical sensing in cells. By outlining how mechanical activation of TREK-1 can be sensitised by mechanical regulation of PLD2 activity, the authors highlight a mechanism by which TREK-1 sensitivity could be regulated under distinct physiological conditions.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The manuscript "Mechanical activation of TWIK-related potassium channel by nanoscopic movement and second messenger signaling" presents a new mechanism for the activation of TREK-1 channel. The mechanism suggests that TREK1 is activated by phosphatidic acids that are produced via a mechanosensitive motion of PLD2 to PIP2-enriched domains. Overall, I found the topic interesting, but several typos and unclarities reduced the readability of the manuscript. Additionally, I have several major concerns on the interpretation of the results. Therefore, the proposed mechanism is not fully supported by the presented data. Lastly, the mechanism is based on several previous studies from the Hansen lab, however, the novelty of the current manuscript is not clearly stated. For example, in the 2nd result section, the authors stated, "fluid shear causes PLD2 to move from cholesterol dependent GM1 clusters to PIP2 clusters and this activated the enzyme". However, this is also presented as a new finding in section 3 "Mechanism of PLD2 activation by shear."

      For PLD2 dependent TREK-1 activation. Overall, I found the results compelling. However, two key results are missing.

      1. Does HEK cells have endogenous PLD2? If so, it's hard to claim that the authors can measure PLD2-independent TREK1 activation.

      Response: yes, there is endogenous PLD (enPLD). We calculated the relative expression of xPLD2 vs enPLD. xPLD2 is >10x more abundant (Fig. S3d of Pavel et al PNAS 2020, ref 14 of the current manuscript). Hence, as with anesthetic sensitivity, we expect the xPLD to out compete the endogenous PLD, which is what we see. We added the following sentence and reference : “The xPLD2 expression is >10x the endogenous PLD2 (enPLD2) and out computes the TREK-1 binding site for PLD25.”

      1. Does the plasma membrane trafficking of TREK1 remain the same under different conditions (PLD2 overexpression, truncation)? From Figure S2, the truncated TREK1 seem to have very poor trafficking. The change of trafficking could significantly contribute to the interpretation of the data in Figure 1.

      Response: If the PLD2 binding site is removed (TREK-1trunc), yes, the trafficking to the plasma membrane is unaffected by the expression of xPLD and mPLD (Author response image 2 above). For full length TREK1 (FL-TREK-1), co-expression of mPLD decreases TREK expression (Author response image 2) and coexpression with xPLD increases TREK expression (Figure S2f). This is exactly opposite of what one would expect if surface expression accounted for the change in pressure currents. Hence, we conclude surface expression does not account for loss of TREK-1 mechanosensitivity with xPLD2. A few sentences was added to the discussion. We also performed dSTORM on the TREKtruncated using EGFP. TREK-truncated goes to PIP2 (see figure 2 of 6)

      Author response image 3.

      To better compare the levels of TREK-1 before and after shear, we added a supplemental figure S2f where the protein was compared simultaneously in all conditions. 15 min of shear significantly decreased TREK-1 except with mPLD2 where the levels before shear were already lowest of all the expression levels tested.

      For shear-induced movement of TREK1 between nanodomains. The section is convincing, however I'm not an expert on super-resolution imaging. Also, it would be helpful to clarify whether the shear stress was maintained during fixation. If not, what is the >me gap between reduced shear and the fixed state. lastly, it's unclear why shear flow changes the level of TREK1 and PIP2.

      Response: Shear was maintained during the fixing. xPLD2 blocks endocytosis, presumably endocytosis and or release of other lipid modifying enzymes affect the system. The change in TREK-1 levels appears to be directly through an interaction with PLD as TREK trunc is not affected by over expression of xPLD or mPLD.

      For the mechanism of PLD2 activation by shear. I found this section not convincing. Therefore, the question of how does PLD2 sense mechanical force on the membrane is not fully addressed. Par>cularly, it's hard to imagine an acute 25% decrease cholesterol level by shear - where did the cholesterol go? Details on the measurements of free cholesterol level is unclear and additional/alternative experiments are needed to prove the reduction in cholesterol by shear.

      Response: The question “how does PLD2 sense mechanical force on the membrane” we addressed and published in Nature Comm. In 2016. The title of that paper is “Kinetic disruption of lipid rafts is a mechanosensor for phospholipase D” see ref 13 Petersen et. al. PLD is a soluble protein associated to the membrane through palmitoylation. There is no transmembrane domain, which narrows the possible mechanism of its mechanosensation to disruption.

      The Nature Comm. reviewer identified as “an expert in PLD signaling” wrote the following of our data and the proposed mechanism:

      “This is a provocative report that identi0ies several unique properties of phospholipase D2 (PLD2). It explains in a novel way some long established observations including that the enzyme is largely regulated by substrate presentation which 0its nicely with the authors model of segregation of the two lipid raft domains (cholesterol ordered vs PIP2 containing). Although PLD has previously been reported to be involved in mechanosensory transduction processes (as cited by the authors) this is the 0irst such report associating the enzyme with this type of signaling... It presents a novel model that is internally consistent with previous literature as well as the data shown in this manuscript. It suggests a new role for PLD2 as a force transduction tied to the physical structure of lipid rafts and uses parallel methods of disrup0on to test the predic0ons of their model.”

      Regarding cholesterol. We use a fluorescent cholesterol oxidase assay which we described in the methods. This is an appropriate assay for determining cholesterol levels in a cell which we use routinely. We have published in multiple journals using this method, see references 28, 30, 31. Working out the metabolic fate of cholesterol after sheer is indeed interesting but well beyond the scope of this paper. Furthermore, we indirectly confirmed our finding using dSTORM cluster analysis (Figure 3d-e). The cluster analysis shows a decrease in GM1 cluster size consistent with our previous experiments where we chemically depleted cholesterol and saw a similar decrease in cluster size (see ref 13). All the data are internally consistent, and the cholesterol assay is properly done. We see no reason to reject the data.

      Importantly, there is no direct evidence for "shear thinning" of the membrane and the authors should avoid claiming shear thinning in the abstract and summary of the manuscript.

      Response: We previously established a kinetic model for PLD2 activation see ref 13 (Petersen et al Nature Comm 2016). In that publication we discussed both entropy and heat as mechanisms of disruption. Here we controlled for heat which narrowed that model to entropy (i.e., shear thinning) (see Figure 3c). We provide an overall justification below. But this is a small refinement of our previous paper, and we prefer not to complicate the current paper. We believe the proper rheological term is shear thinning. The following justification, which is largely adapted from ref 13, could be added to the supplement if the reviewer wishes.

      Justification: To establish shear thinning in a biological membrane, we initially used a soluble enzyme that has no transmembrane domain, phospholipase D2 (PLD2). PLD2 is a soluble enzyme and associated with the membrane by palmitate, a saturated 16 carbon lipid attached to the enzyme. In the absence of a transmembrane domain, mechanisms of mechanosensation involving hydrophobic mismatch, tension, midplane bending, and curvature can largely be excluded. Rather the mechanism appears to be a change in fluidity (i.e., kinetic in nature). GM1 domains are ordered, and the palmate forms van der Waals bonds with the GM1 lipids. The bonds must be broken for PLD to no longer associate with GM1 lipids. We established this in our 2016 paper, ref 13. In that paper we called it a kinetic effect, however we did not experimentally distinguish enthalpy (heat) vs. entropy (order). Heat is Newtonian and entropy (i.e., shear thinning) is non-Newtonian. In the current study we paid closer attention to the heat and ruled it out (see Figure 3c and methods). We could propose a mechanism based on kinetic disruption, but we know the disruption is not due to melting of the lipids (enthalpy), which leaves shear thinning (entropy) as the plausible mechanism.

      The authors should also be aware that hypotonic shock is a very dirty assay for stretching the cell membrane. Ouen, there is only a transient increase in membrane tension, accompanied by many biochemical changes in the cells (including acidification, changes of concentration etc). Therefore, I would not consider this as definitive proof that PLD2 can be activated by stretching membrane.

      Response: Comment noted. We trust the reviewer is correct. In 1998 osmotic shock was used to activate the channel. We only intended to show that the system is consistent with previous electrophysiologic experiments.

      References cited:

      1 Du G, Huang P, Liang BT, Frohman MA. Phospholipase D2 localizes to the plasma membrane and regulates angiotensin II receptor endocytosis. Mol Biol Cell 2004;15:1024–30. htps://doi.org/10.1091/mbc.E03-09-0673.

      2 Koch T, Wu DF, Yang LQ, Brandenburg LO, Höllt V. Role of phospholipase D2 in the agonist-induced and constistutive endocytosis of G-protein coupled receptors. J Neurochem 2006;97:365–72. htps://doi.org/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2006.03736.x.

      3 Wheeler DS, Underhill SM, Stolz DB, Murdoch GH, Thiels E, Romero G, et al. Amphetamine activates Rho GTPase signaling to mediate dopamine transporter internalization and acute behavioral effects of amphetamine. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2015;112:E7138–47. htps://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1511670112.

      4 Rankovic M, Jacob L, Rankovic V, Brandenburg L-OO, Schröder H, Höllt V, et al. ADP-ribosylation factor 6 regulates mu-opioid receptor trafficking and signaling via activation of phospholipase D2. Cell Signal 2009;21:1784–93. htps://doi.org/10.1016/j.cellsig.2009.07.014.

      5 Pavel MA, Petersen EN, Wang H, Lerner RA, Hansen SB. Studies on the mechanism of general anesthesia. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2020;117:13757–66. htps://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2004259117.

      6 Call IM, Bois JL, Hansen SB. Super-resolution imaging of potassium channels with genetically encoded EGFP. BioRxiv 2023. htps://doi.org/10.1101/2023.10.13.561998.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      This work by Leclercq and colleagues performed metabolomics on biospecimens collected from 96 patients diagnosed with several types of alcohol use disorders (AUD). The authors discovered strong alterations in circulating glycerophospholipids, bile acids, and some gut microbe-derived metabolites in AUD patients compared to controls. An exciting part of this work is that metabolomics was also performed in frontal cortex of post-mortem brains and cerebrospinal fluid of heavy alcohol users, and some of the same metabolites were seen to be altered in the central nervous system. This is an important study that will form the basis for hypothesis generation around diet-microbe-host interactions in alcohol use disorder. The work is done in a highly rigorous manner, and the rigorously collected human samples are a clear strength of this work. Overall, many new insights may be gained by this work, and it is poised to have a high impact on the field.

      Strengths:

      (1) The rigorously collected patient-derived samples.

      (2) There is high rigor in the metabolomics investigation.

      (3) Statistical analyses are well-described and strong.

      (4) An evident strength is the careful control of taking blood samples at the same time of the day to avoid alterations in meal- and circadian-related fluctuations in metabolites.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Some validation in animal models of ethanol exposure compared to pair-fed controls would help strengthen causal relationships between metabolites and alterations in the CNS.

      (2) The classification of "heavy alcohol users" based on autopsy reports may not be that accurate.

      (3) The fact that most people with alcohol use disorder choose to drink over eating food, there needs to be some more discussion around how dietary intake (secondary to heavy drinking) most likely has a significant impact on the metabolome.<br />

      We thank this reviewer for his/her encouraging comments and for highlighting the fact that this study is important in the field to generate hypotheses around diet-microbe-host interactions in alcohol use disorder.

      Concerning weakness #1: Regarding the validation in animal models of ethanol exposure, we were very careful in our discussion to avoid pretending that the study allowed to test causality of the factors. This was certainly not the objective of the present study. The testing of causality would indeed probably necessitate animal models but these models could only test the effects of one single metabolite at a time and could not at the same time capture the complexity of the changes occurring in AUD patients. The testing of metabolites would be a totally different topic. Hence, we do not feel comfortable in conducting rodent experiments for several reasons. First, AUD is a very complex pathology with physiological and psychological/psychiatric alterations that are obviously difficult to reproduce in animal models. Secondly, as mentioned by the reviewer, AUD pathology spontaneously leads to nutritional deficits, including significant reductions in carbohydrates, lipids, proteins and fiber intakes. We have recently published a paper in which we carefully conducted detailed dietary anamneses and described the changes in food habits in AUD patients (Amadieu et al., 2021). As explained below, some blood metabolites that are significantly correlated with depression, anxiety and craving belong to the xanthine family and are namely theobromine, theophylline, and paraxanthine, which derived from metabolism of coffee, tea or chocolate (which are not part of the normal diet of mice or rats).Therefore, conducting an experiment in animal model of ethanol exposure compared to pair-fed controls will omit the important impact of nutrition in blood metabolomics and consequently won’t mimic the human AUD pathology. In addition, if we take into consideration the European Directive 2010/63/EU (on the protection of animals used for scientific purposes) which aims at Reducing (Refining, Replacing) the number of animals used in experiment, it is extremely difficult to justify, at the ethical point of view, the need to reproduce human results in an animal model that won’t be able to mimic the nutritional, physiological and psychological alterations of alcohol use disorder.

      Concerning weakness #2: The classification of subjects to the group who have a history of heavy alcohol use was not solely on autopsy record, but was also based on medical history i.e. diagnosis of alcohol-related diseases: ICD-10 codes F10.X, G31.2, G62.1, G72.1, I42.6, K70.0-K70.4, K70.9, and K86.0, or signs of heavy alcohol use in the clinical or laboratory findings, e.g., increased levels of gamma-glutamyl transferase, mean corpuscular volume, carbohydrate-deficient transferrin, as stated in the methods section of the manuscript. In Finland, the medical records from the whole life of the subjects are available. We consider that getting diagnosis of alcohol-related disease is clear sign of history of heavy alcohol use.

      Concerning weakness#3:  As explained above, we do agree with the reviewer that AUD is not only “drinking alcohol” but is also associated with reduction in food intake that obviously influenced the metabolomics data presented in this current study.  We have therefore added some data, which have not been published before, in the results section that refer to key nutrients modified by alcohol intake and we refer to those data and their link with metabolomics in the discussion section:

      Results section page 8, Line 153-155. This sentence has been added:

      “The changes in metabolites belonging to the xanthine family during alcohol withdrawal could be explained by the changes in dietary intake of coffee, tea and chocolate (see Fig S5).”

      Discussion section: Page 11, Line 235-240.

      “Interestingly, the caffeine metabolites belonging to the xanthine family such as paraxanthine, theophylline and theobromine that were decreased at baseline in AUD patients compared to controls, increased significantly during alcohol withdrawal to reach the levels of healthy controls. Changes in dietary intake of coffee, tea and chocolate during alcohol withdrawal could explain these results”.

      In the conclusion, Page 16, Line 354-356, we clearly stated that: “LC-MS metabolomics plasma analysis allowed for the identification of metabolites that were clearly linked to alcohol consumption, and reflected changes in metabolism, alterations of nutritional status, and gut microbial dysbiosis associated with alcohol intake”

      Reference:

      Amadieu C, Leclercq S, Coste V, Thijssen V, Neyrinck AM, Bindels LB, Cani PD, Piessevaux H, Stärkel P, Timary P de, Delzenne NM. 2021. Dietary fiber deficiency as a component of malnutrition associated with psychological alterations in alcohol use disorder. Clinical Nutrition 40:2673–2682. doi:10.1016/j.clnu.2021.03.029

      Leclercq S, Cani PD, Neyrinck AM, Stärkel P, Jamar F, Mikolajczak M, Delzenne NM, de Timary P. 2012. Role of intestinal permeability and inflammation in the biological and behavioral control of alcohol-dependent subjects. Brain Behav Immun 26:911–918. doi:10.1016/j.bbi.2012.04.001

      Leclercq S, De Saeger C, Delzenne N, de Timary P, Stärkel P. 2014a. Role of inflammatory pathways, blood mononuclear cells, and gut-derived bacterial products in alcohol dependence. Biol Psychiatry 76:725–733. doi:10.1016/j.biopsych.2014.02.003

      Leclercq S, Matamoros S, Cani PD, Neyrinck AM, Jamar F, Stärkel P, Windey K, Tremaroli V, Bäckhed F, Verbeke K, de Timary P, Delzenne NM. 2014b. Intestinal permeability, gut-bacterial dysbiosis, and behavioral markers of alcohol-dependence severity. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 111:E4485–E4493. doi:10.1073/pnas.1415174111

      Voutilainen T, Kärkkäinen O. 2019. Changes in the Human Metabolome Associated With Alcohol Use: A Review. Alcohol and Alcoholism 54:225–234. doi:10.1093/alcalc/agz030

      Public Reviewer #2:

      The authors carried out the current studies with the justification that the biochemical mechanisms that lead to alcohol addiction are incompletely understood. The topic and question addressed here are impactful and indeed deserve further research. To this end, a metabolomics approach toward investigating the metabolic effects of alcohol use disorder and the effect of alcohol withdrawal in AUD subjects is valuable. However, it is primarily descriptive in nature, and these data alone do not meet the stated goal of investigating biochemical mechanisms of alcohol addiction. The current work's most significant limitation is the cross-sectional study design, though inadequate description and citation of the underlying methodological approaches also hampers interest. Most of the data are cross-sectional in the study design, i.e., alcohol use disorder vs controls. However, it is well established that there is a high degree of interpersonal variation with metabolism, and further, there is somewhat high intra-personal variation in metabolism over time. This means that the relatively small cohort of subjects is unlikely to reflect the broader condition of interest (AUD/withdrawal). The authors report a comparison of a later time-point after alcohol withdrawal (T2) vs. the AUD condition. However, without replicative time points from the control subjects it is difficult to assess how much of these changes are due to withdrawal vs the intra-personal variation described above.

      We agree with the reviewer. Our goal was not to investigate the biochemical mechanisms of AUD but rather to investigate how metabolomics could contribute to the psychological alterations of AUD. The goals of the study are defined at the end of the introduction (Page 4 – Lines 80-91), as follows:

      “The aims of this study are multiple. First, we investigated the impact of severe AUD on the blood metabolome by non-targeted LC-MS metabolomics analysis. Second, we investigated the impact of a short-term alcohol abstinence on the blood metabolome followed by assessing the correlations between the blood metabolome and psychological symptoms developed in AUD patients. Last, we hypothesized that metabolites significantly correlated with depression, anxiety or alcohol craving could potentially have neuroactive properties, and therefore the presence of those neuroactive metabolites was confirmed in the central nervous system using post-mortem analysis of frontal cortex and cerebrospinal fluid of persons with a history of heavy alcohol use. Our data bring new insights on xenobiotics- or microbial-derived neuroactive metabolites, which can represent an interesting strategy to prevent or treat psychiatric disorders such as AUD”.

      Due to the fact that the method section describing the study design is located at the end of the manuscript, we have decided to clarify the methodological approach in the first paragraph of the result section in order to show that in fact, we have performed a longitudinal study (which includes the same group of AUD, tested at two time points – at the beginning and at the end of alcohol withdrawal). This is stated as follows:

      Results section, Page 6, Line 97-99: “All patients were hospitalized for a 3-week detoxification program, and tested at two timepoints: T1 which represents the first day of alcohol withdrawal, and T2 which represents the last day of the detoxification program”.

      We propose to add a figure with a schematic representation of the protocol. We let the editor deciding whether this figure can be added (as supplemental material).

      Author response image 1.

      Schematic representation of the protocol

      We agree with the reviewer that the correlational analysis (between blood metabolites and psychological symptoms) is conducted at one time point (T1) only, which has probably led to the confusion between cross-sectional and longitudinal study. In fact we had a strong motivation to provide correlations at T1, instead of T2. T1, which is at the admission time, is really the moment where we can take into account variability of the psychological scores. Indeed, after 3 weeks of abstinence (T2), the levels of depression, anxiety and alcohol craving decreased significantly ( as shown in other studies from our group (Leclercq et al., 2014b, 2014a, 2012)) and remained pretty low in AUD patients, with a much lower inter-individual variability which makes the correlations less consistent.

      We agree with the reviewer that there is a high intra and inter-personal variability in the metabolomics data, that could be due to the differences in previous meals intakes within and between subjects. While AUD subjects have been tested twice (at the beginning and at the end of a 3-week detoxification program), the control subjects have only been tested once. Consequently, we did not take into account the intra-personal variability in the control group. The metabolomics changes observed in AUD patients between T1 and T2 are therefore due to alcohol withdrawal but also to intra-personal variability. This is a limitation of the study that we have now added in the discussion section, Page 16, Lines 354-357  as follows:

      “The selection of the control group is always challenging in alcohol research. Here, the healthy subjects were matched for sex, age and BMI but not for smoking status or nutritional intake. Alcohol addiction is a major cause of malnutrition in developed countries and tobacco smoking is more prevalent in alcohol users compared to healthy subjects. These two main confounding factors, although being an integral part of the alcoholic pathology, are known to influence the blood metabolome. Furthermore, another limitation is that the control group was tested only once, while the AUD patients were tested twice (T1 and T2). This means that we do not take into consideration the intra-personal variability of the metabolomics data when interpreting the results of alcohol withdrawal effects”.

      The limitation concerning the small sample size is already mentioned in the discussion section, as follows:

      “Large studies are usually required in metabolomics to observe small and medium size changes. Here, we included only 96 AUD patients, but they were all well characterized and received standardized therapies (for instance, vitB supplementation) during alcohol withdrawal”.

      Overall, there is not enough experimental context to interpret these findings into a biological understanding. For example, while several metabolites are linked with AUD and associated with microbiome or host metabolism based on existing literature, it's unclear from the current study what function these changes have concerning AUD, if any. The authors also argue that alcohol withdrawal shifts the AUD plasma metabolic fingerprint towards healthy controls (line 153). However, this is hard to assess based on the plots provided since the change in the direction of the orange data subset is considers AUD T2 vs T1. In contrast, AUD T2 vs Control would represent the claimed shift. To support these claims, the authors would better support their argument by showing this comparison as well as showing all experimental groups (including control subjects) in their multi-dimensional model (e.g., PCA).

      We thank the reviewer for these comments. It is true in this type of discovery-based approach the causality cannot be interpreted nor do we claim so. The aim was to characterize the metabolic alterations in this population, response to withdrawal period and suggest potential candidate metabolites linked to psychological symptoms. Rigorous pre-clinical assays and validation trials in humans are required to prove the causality, if any, of the discussed metabolites.

      The original claim on line 153 was poorly constructed and the Figure 2c is meant to visualize the influence of withdrawal on selected metabolites and also show the effect of chronic alcohol intake on the selected metabolites at baseline. The description of the Figure 2c has been modified in result section from line 156 onwards: “Overall, Fig. 2c demonstrates that a number of identified metabolites altered in sAUD patients relative to control are affected by alcohol withdrawal. Apart from 4-pyridoxic acid, cotinine, and heme metabolites bilirubin and biliverdin, the shifts observed in the selected metabolites are generally in the opposite direction as compared to the baseline.”

      The authors attempt to extend the significance of their findings by assessing post-mortem brain tissues from AUD subjects; however, the finding that many of the metabolites changed in T2/T1 are also present in AUD brain tissues is interesting; however, not strongly supporting of the authors' claims that these metabolites are markers of AUD (line 173). Concerning the plasma cohort itself, it is unclear how the authors assessed for compliance with alcohol withdrawal or whether the subjects' blood-alcohol levels were independently verified.

      We did not claim that the metabolites significantly correlated with the psychological symptoms - and present in central nervous system (frontal cortex or CSF) -  are “markers of AUD”. Line 173 did not refer to this idea, and the terms “markers of AUD” do not appear in the whole manuscript.

      Regarding the compliance with alcohol cessation, we did not assess the ethanol blood level. The patients are hospitalized for a 3-week detoxification program, they are not allowed to drink alcohol and are under strict control of the nurses and medical staff of the unit. Consuming alcoholic beverage within the hospitalization unit is a reason for exclusion. However, we carefully monitored the liver function during alcohol withdrawal. For the reviewers’ information, we have added here below, the evolution of liver enzymes (ALT, AST, gGT) during the 3-week detoxification program as indirect markers of alcohol abstinence.

      Author response image 2.

      Data are described as median ± SEM. AST, Aspartate transaminase; ALT, Alanine transaminase; gGT: gamma glutamyltranspeptidase. ** p<0.01 vs T1, *** p<0.001 vs T1

       

      The second area of concern is the need for more description of the analytical methodology, the lack of metabolite identification validation evidence, and related statistical questions. The authors cite reference #59 regarding the general methodology. However, this reference from their group is a tutorial/review/protocol-focused resource paper, and it is needs to be clarified how specific critical steps were actually applied to the current plasma study samples given the range of descriptions provided in the citations. The authors report a variety of interesting metabolites, including their primary fragment intensities, which are appreciated (Supplementary Table 3), but no MS2 matching scores are provided for level 2 or 3 hits. Further, level 1 hits under their definition are validated by an in-house standard, but no supporting data are provided besides this categorization. Finally, a common risk in such descriptive studies is finding spurious associations, especially considering many factors described in the current work. These include AUD, depression, anxiety, craving, withdrawal, etc. The authors describe the use of BH correction for multiple-hypothesis testing. However, this approach only accounts for the many possible metabolite association tests within each comparison (such as metabolites vs depression). It does not account for the multi-variate comparisons to the many behavior/clinical factors described above. The authors should employ one of several common strategies, such as linear mixed effects models, for these types of multi-variate assessments.

      The methodological details related to the sample processing, data acquisition, data pre-processing and metabolite identification have been provided in the supplementary materials and described below. Supplementary table 3 has been amended with characteristic MS2 fragments for both positive and negative ionization modes if data was available. Additionally, all annotations against the in-house library additions have been rechecked, identification levels corrected and EICs for all level 1 identifications are provided in the supplementary material.

      As described in the statistical analysis methods, BH correction was employed in the group-wise comparisons to shortlist the altered features for identification. Manual curating was then applied for the significant features and annotated metabolites subjected to correlation analysis. In this discovery-based approach the aim was to discover potential candidates linked with psychological symptoms for subsequent work to evaluate causality. Hence, the application of multi-variate analysis assessing biomarker candidates is not in the scope of this study.

      “LC-MS analysis. Plasma sample preparation and LC-MS measurement followed the parameters previously detailed in Klåvus et al (57).  Samples were randomized and thawed on ice before processing. 100 µl of plasma was added to 400 µl of LC-MS grade acetonitrile, mixed by pipetting four time, followed by centrifugation in 700 g for 5 minutes at 4 °C. A quality control sample was prepared by pooling 10 µl of each sample together. Extraction blanks having only cold acetonitrile and devoid of sample were prepared following the same procedure as sample extracts. LC-MS grade acetonitrile, methanol, water, formic acid and ammonium formate (Riedel-de Haën™, Honeywell, Seelze, Germany) were used to prepare mobile phase eluents in reverse phase (Zorbax Eclipse XDBC18, 2.1 × 100 mm, 1.8 μm, Agilent Technologies, Palo Alto, CA, USA) and hydrophilic interaction (Acquity UPLC® BEH Amide 1.7 μm, 2.1 × 100 mm, Waters Corporation, Milford, MA, USA) liquid chromatography separation. In reverse phase separation, the samples were analyzed by Vanquish Flex UHPLC system (Thermo Scientific, Bremen, Germany) coupled to high-resolution mass spectrometry (Q Exactive Focus, Thermo Scientific, Bremen, Germany) in both positive and negative polarity mass range from 120 to 1200, target AGC 1e6 and resolution 70,000 in full scan mode. Data dependent MS/MS data was acquired for both modes with target AGC 8e3 and resolution 17,500, precursor isolation window was 1.5 amu, normalized collision energies were set at 20, 30 and 40 eV and dynamic exclusion at 10.0 seconds. In hydrophobic interaction separation, the samples were analyzed by a 1290 LC system coupled to a 6540 UHD accurate mass Q-ToF spectrometer (Agilent Technologies, Waldbronn, Karlsruhe, Germany) using electrospray ionization (ESI, Jet Stream) in both positive and negative polarity with mass range from 50 to 1600 and scan rate of 1.67 Hz in full scan mode. Source settings were as in the protocol. Data dependent MS/MS data was acquired separately using 10, 20 and 40 eV collision energy in subsequent runs. Scan rate was set at 3.31 Hz, precursor isolation width of 1.3 amu and target counts/spectrum of 20,000, maximum of 4 precursor pre-cycle, precursor exclusion after 2 spectra and release after 15.0 seconds. Detectors were calibrated prior sequence and continuous mass axis calibration was performed throughout runs by monitoring reference ions from infusion solution for operating at high accuracy of < 2 ppm. Quality control samples were injected in the beginning of the analysis to equilibrate the system and after every 12 samples for quality assurance and drift correction in all modes. All data were acquired in centroid mode by either MassHunter Acquisition B.05.01 (Agilent Technologies) or in profile mode by Xcalibur 4.1 (Thermo Fisher Scientific) softwares.

      Metabolomics analysis of TSDS frontal cortex and CSF samples using the same 1290 LC system coupled with a 6540 UHD accurate mass Q-ToF spectrometer has been previously accomplished by Karkkainen et al (10).

      Peak picking and data processing. Raw instrumental data (*raw and *.d files) were converted to ABF format using Reifycs Abf Converter (https://www.reifycs.com/AbfConverter). MS-DIAL (Version 4.70) was employed for automated peak picking and alignment with the parameters according to Klåvus et al., 2020 (57) separately for each analytical mode. For the 6540 Q-ToF mass data minimum peak height was set at 8,000 and for the Q Exactive Focus mass data minimum peak height was set at 850,000. Commonly, m/z values up to 1600 and all retention times were considered, for aligning the peaks across samples retention time tolerance was 0.2 min and MS1 tolerance 0.015 Da and the “gap filling by compulsion” was selected. Alignment results across all modes and sample types as peak areas were exported into Microsoft Excel sheets to be used for further data pre-processing.

      Pre-processing including drift correction and quality assessment was done using the notame package v.0.2.1 R software version 4.0.3 separately for each mode. Features present in less than 80% of the samples within all groups and with detection rate in less than 70% of the QC samples were flagged. All features were subjected to drift correction where the features were log-transformed and a regularized cubic spline regression line was fitted for each feature against the quality control samples. After drift correction, QC samples were removed and missing values in the non-flagged features were imputed using random forest imputation. Finally, the preprocessed data from each analytical mode was merged into a single data matrix.

      Molecular feature characteristics (exact mass, retention time and MS/MS spectra) were compared against in-house standard library, publicly available databases such as METLIN, HMDB and LIPIDMAPS and published literature. Annotation of metabolites and the level of identification was based on the recommendations given by the Chemical Analysis Working Group (CAWG) Metabolomics Standards Initiative (MSI) (59): 1 = identified based on a reference standard, 2 = putatively annotated based on physicochemical properties or similarity with public spectral libraries, 3 = putatively annotated to a chemical class and 4 = unknown.”

      Reference 59: Sumner LW, Amberg A, Barrett D, Beale MH, Beger R, Daykin CA, et al. Proposed minimum reporting standards for chemical analysis. Metabolomics. 2007;3:211–221.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) There should be more discussion comparing and contrasting the differences between the 2 cohorts (ALCOHOLBIS versus GUT2BRAIN), instead of stressing the similarities.

      As indicated in the results section, we have verified that the ALCOHOLBIS cohort and GUT2BRAIN cohort are similar in term of age, gender, smoking habits, drinking habits and severity of psychological symptoms. Those similar features are important to allow the combination of the metabolomics data from the two cohorts, which subsequently allows to have a bigger sample size (n = 96) and more statistical power.

      (2) The identification of 97 heavy alcohol users based on hospital codes at autopsy may not be the most rigorous way to define those with AUD. More information is needed on how these 97 were classified as heavy alcohol users.

      The classification of subjects to the group who have a history of heavy alcohol use was not based solely on the autopsy records. The classification was also based on medical history, which in Finland is available from the whole life of the subjects, and including diagnoses and laboratory finding. The subjects needed to have a diagnosis of alcohol-related disease, as stated in the methods section of the manuscript. However, since some of the used diagnoses are related to organ damage related to heavy alcohol use, we do not claim that these subjects would all have alcohol dependence. But history of heavy use of alcohol is needed to get organ damage associated with alcohol use. Therefore, we consider that diagnosis of alcohol-related disease is a clear sign of a history of heavy alcohol use.

      (3) The fact that the control group mainly died of cardiovascular disease confounds the interpretations around alcohol impact metabolite levels. How much of the metabolomics differences are related to hyperlipidemia or other CVD risk factors in the controls?

      There are no healthy controls in post-mortem studies, since all subjects need to die from something to be included to the cohort. The challenge in studying AUD is that they die relatively young. The only other group of individuals who die outside of hospital at the relatively same age as subjects with AUD are those with CVD. Post-mortem autopsies are done in Finland to all who die outside of hospital, and these are the main source of samples for post-mortem sample cohorts. Therefore, there is no other control group to compare AUD subject to in these types of studies.

      As for the altered metabolites in the post-mortem sample, the phospholipids observed could be associated with CVD. However, alterations in phospholipids are also commonly associated with alcohol use and AUD (for a review see (Voutilainen and Kärkkäinen, 2019)) and this effect is also seen in the results from the clinical cohorts in this study (Figure 1). Therefore, it cannot be said that these phospholipids finding would be due to selection of the control group.

      (4) When examining metabolomics alterations, it is extremely important to understand what people are eating (i.e., providing a substrate). A major confounding issue here is that heavy alcohol users typically choose drinking over eating food. How much of the observed alterations in the plasma metabolome is due to the decreased food intake? Some validation in animal models of ethanol exposure compared to pair-fed controls would help strengthen causal relationships between metabolites and alterations in the circulation and CNS.

      Regarding the validation in animal models of ethanol exposure, we were very careful in our discussion to avoid pretending that the study allowed to test causality of the factors. This was certainly not the objective of the present study. The testing of causality would indeed probably necessitate animal models but these models could only test the effects of one single metabolite at a time and could not at the same time capture the complexity of the changes occurring in AUD patients. The testing of metabolites would be a totally different topic. Hence, we do not feel comfortable in conducting rodent experiments for several reasons. First, AUD is a very complex pathology with physiological and psychological/psychiatric alterations that are obviously difficult to reproduce in animal models. Secondly, as mentioned by the reviewer, AUD pathology spontaneously leads to nutritional deficits, including significant reductions in carbohydrates, lipids, proteins and fiber intakes. We have recently published a paper in which we carefully conducted detailed dietary anamneses and described the changes in food habits in AUD patients (Amadieu et al., 2021). As explained below, some blood metabolites that are significantly correlated with depression, anxiety and craving belong to the xanthine family and are namely theobromine, theophylline, and paraxanthine, which derived from metabolism of coffee, tea or chocolate (which are not part of the normal diet of mice or rats).Therefore, conducting an experiment in animal model of ethanol exposure compared to pair-fed controls will omit the important impact of nutrition in blood metabolomics and consequently won’t mimic the human AUD pathology. In addition, if we take into consideration the European Directive 2010/63/EU (on the protection of animals used for scientific purposes) which aims at Reducing (Refining, Replacing) the number of animals used in experiment, it is extremely difficult to justify, at the ethical point of view, the need to reproduce human results in an animal model that won’t be able to mimic the nutritional, physiological and psychological alterations of alcohol use disorder.

      As explained above, we do agree with the reviewer that AUD is not only “drinking alcohol” but is also associated with reduction in food intake that obviously influenced the metabolomics data presented in this current study.  We have therefore added some data, which have not been published in the previous version of the manuscript, in the results section that refer to key nutrients modified by alcohol intake and we refer to those data and their link with metabolomics in the discussion section:

      Results section page 8, Line 153-155. This sentence has been added:

      “The changes in metabolites belonging to the xanthine family during alcohol withdrawal could be explained by the changes in dietary intake of coffee, tea and chocolate (see Fig S5).”

      Discussion section: Page 11, Line 234-238.

      “Interestingly, the caffeine metabolites belonging to the xanthine family such as paraxanthine, theophylline and theobromine that were decreased at baseline in AUD patients compared to controls, increased significantly during alcohol withdrawal to reach the levels of healthy controls. Changes in dietary intake of coffee, tea and chocolate during alcohol withdrawal could explain these results”.

      In the conclusion, Page 16, Line 360-32, we clearly stated that: “LC-MS metabolomics plasma analysis allowed for the identification of metabolites that were clearly linked to alcohol consumption, and reflected changes in metabolism, alterations of nutritional status, and gut microbial dysbiosis associated with alcohol intake”

      Reference:

      Amadieu C, Leclercq S, Coste V, Thijssen V, Neyrinck AM, Bindels LB, Cani PD, Piessevaux H, Stärkel P, Timary P de, Delzenne NM. 2021. Dietary fiber deficiency as a component of malnutrition associated with psychological alterations in alcohol use disorder. Clinical Nutrition 40:2673–2682. doi:10.1016/j.clnu.2021.03.029

      Leclercq S, Cani PD, Neyrinck AM, Stärkel P, Jamar F, Mikolajczak M, Delzenne NM, de Timary P. 2012. Role of intestinal permeability and inflammation in the biological and behavioral control of alcohol-dependent subjects. Brain Behav Immun 26:911–918. doi:10.1016/j.bbi.2012.04.001

      Leclercq S, De Saeger C, Delzenne N, de Timary P, Stärkel P. 2014a. Role of inflammatory pathways, blood mononuclear cells, and gut-derived bacterial products in alcohol dependence. Biol Psychiatry 76:725–733. doi:10.1016/j.biopsych.2014.02.003

      Leclercq S, Matamoros S, Cani PD, Neyrinck AM, Jamar F, Stärkel P, Windey K, Tremaroli V, Bäckhed F, Verbeke K, de Timary P, Delzenne NM. 2014b. Intestinal permeability, gut-bacterial dysbiosis, and behavioral markers of alcohol-dependence severity. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 111:E4485–E4493. doi:10.1073/pnas.1415174111

      Voutilainen T, Kärkkäinen O. 2019. Changes in the Human Metabolome Associated With Alcohol Use: A Review. Alcohol and Alcoholism 54:225–234. doi:10.1093/alcalc/agz030

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) More methodological information about the laboratory processing of samples, instrumentation, and data analysis needs to be provided. Reference 59 needs to be more specific and include important methodological details for this project. Please provide an actual methods section for the mass-spectrometry-based metabolomics.

      The reviewer is correct that the methods should be described in detail but due to word limits, the description was moved to a supplementary file. Methodological details are provided in the answer to the final comment in the public reviews section and we kindly refer to that for the methodological details. Reference 57 (Klåvus et al) is a method paper and covers the whole untargeted metabolomics pipeline that is used in our work.

      (2) The VIP figures, e.g., Figure 1b and Figure 2b are not very informative and would be better represented in a supplementary table

      VIP scores for all annotated metabolites are provided in the supplementary table 3 along with peak data and other values derived from statistical tests. Furthermore, we have removed the VIP value in figures 1 and 2 and we have replaced them by an updated Volcano plot to represent also the VIP values in addition to the q and Cohen’s d values.

      (3) The findings on odd-chain lyso-lipids are interesting, and while these have been reported biologically, odd-chain lipids are uncommon and should be validated with authentic standards as available (please provide an XIC of the level 1 peak and standard if possible, e.g., LPC 17:0) or at least a supplementary figure on manual inspection of the negative mode MS2 spectrum showing the putative fatty acid chain fragment. The current assignments are based on positive mode lipid class fragments and accurate mass.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out and it is correct that the negative MS2 spectrum is essential for lipid identification. Although the current assignments show only positive fragments for many lipids, the fatty acid chain, if reported, has been confirmed from negative mode MS2 spectrum. The supplementary table 3 with peak information has been augmented with fragment information from both negative and positive ionizations if available. Also, reference and experimental MS2 spectra have been provided as separate supplemental file for level 1 identifications, including the odd-chain lyso-lipids LPC 15:0 and 17:0.

      (4) Please provide some supplementary information (MS1/MS2 if available) on the untargeted features of interest (up and down-regulated) from Figure 1C, especially the 5 encircled features. If any manual annotation of these features was attempted, please include a brief description in the results/discussion.

      All statistically significant features with MS2 data have been subjected to manual annotation and database searches using at least METLIN, HMDB and LipidMaps. Additionally, if the manual inspection failed to provide any identification, in silico fragmentation software MS-FINDER was used to calculate candidate molecular formula. The features were labeled as unknown if all efforts were unsuccessful. The peak characteristics of the key unknowns in Figure 1b have also been included in the supplemental table.

      A note of the manual inspection has been included in the result section line 129: “The top-ranked metabolites in Fig. 1b remained unknown regardless of manual curation.”

      Reviewer #3:

      I think this is an interesting paper with a very solid methodology and an abundance of results. I am not an expert on metabolomics, and I have some very interesting hours here, trying (but sometimes failing) to grasp this paper's content. This paper also needs to be closely read by a reviewer who knows the metabolomics field and can give feedback on the meaning of the results. I have focused purely on the AUD clinical side as this is where I may contribute. My main concern is conceptualizing the aims and what authors want to investigate. As far as I understand, this is a study of the relationship between alcohol use and the metabolome, and in this respect, I think there are some issues.

      Just take the abstract that talks about (in the first sentence) alcohol use disorder ("AUD") - a term that generally sometimes refers to harmful use of alcohol and alcohol addiction and sometimes to all F10-diagnosis (and thus an inaccurate term), then the following sentence talks about what leads to alcohol addiction (not dependence) - and this in a mechanistic direction and in the last part of the second sentence talks about metabolomics being able to decipher metabolic events related to AUD. So, even in the first two sentences, it is confusing - is this about correlates, mechanisms, prevention, or treatment? The inaccuracy of terms continues in sentence 4. We have "chronic alcohol abuse" (?) and "severe alcohol use disorder (AUD)" (abbreviated for the second time). Later, only "alcohol abuse" is used and the abstract ends with something about these findings being interesting in "the management of [...] AUD". All this illustrates that there is a large mixture of concepts - what aspect of alcohol use or abuse are you looking at? Moreover, of intention: is it to find correlates, explanations, or targets for interventions? Without clarity in this respect, one can get lost in what all these interesting measures mean - how we should interpret them. This comment is made only for the abstract. However, but it is equally valid and important for the introduction and discussion parts of the ms, where additional terms and formulations are introduced: "heavy alcohol use" (lines 86-7) and "prevent or treat psychiatric disorders such as AUD" (lines 90-1). This is then reflected in the discussion where the authors claim that what they have found is related to "chronic alcohol abuse" (line 188), "heavy alcohol drinkers" (line 191), and "AUD patients" (lines 199 and 202 and further on).  

      We thank the reviewer for this useful comment and we apologize for the confusion. We agree that it is important to use the correct terms and definitions. All patients included in this study were diagnosed as severe AUD (for more information on the diagnosis, see answer to the comments related to DSM-IV and DSM5). This manuscript is consequently related to severe AUD and other terms like “alcohol abuse, “alcohol addiction” are therefore not appropriate. In the revised version of the manuscript, we have used severe AUD or the abbreviation sAUD. The figure and legends have been changed accordingly.

      In the first paragraph of the results section, ALCOHOLBIS and GUT2BRAIN are compared. It says they are similar on many measures, including craving, but different on some measures, again including craving. It is difficult to grasp this even if the authors try to explain (lines 101-2). This sentence also introduces some discussion in the results section by saying something normative about their finding and relating this to other research (references 12, 13, and 14).

      We would like to apologize for the confusion related to first paragraph of the results section. We have indeed indicated that, while the ALCOHOLBIS cohort and the GUT2BRAIN cohort are highly similar in term of biological and psychological features, a significant difference does exist in the compulsive component of the craving score. Indeed, the mean score of compulsion is 11 ± 3 in the ALCOHOLBIS cohort and 14  ± 3 in the GUT2BRAIN cohort. In healthy controls, the mean score of compulsion is 1.5 ± 1.5. Despite the statistically significant difference in craving between both cohorts, we do not think that this difference is relevant in our context since both scores (11 and 14) are considered high compared to the control group. In order to simplify the message, we have revised the first paragraph as follows:

      “Both groups of patients were similar in terms of age, gender, smoking and drinking habits and presented with high scores of depression, anxiety and alcohol craving at T1 (Table 1). These biological and psychological similarities allow us to combine both cohorts (and consequently increase sample size) and compare them to a group of heathy controls for metabolomics analysis”.

      In line 104 the abbreviation PCA is introduced but needs to be explained. Such objections could be made for many of the abbreviations used (sPLS-DA VIP, LPC, CSF, CNS, LPE, etc.), but of course, they may be made more difficult by the unusual way of stacking the different sections.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing these out. Most abbreviations are written out in the figure legends or method section but indeed the organization of the different sections makes it less evident. The abbreviations pointed out have been opened in the results section when they are first used.

      Furthermore, they say that the severity of AUD was "evaluated by a psychiatrist using the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) criteria, fourth edition (DSM-IV) (ALCOHOLBIS cohort) or fifth edition (DSM-5)" (GUT2BRAIN cohort): This makes sense for DSM-5 but needs to be explained more for DSM-IV. They also need to say what levels were included.

      We thank the reviewer for this very appropriate remark that deserves some explanations.

      While the patients of the GUT2BRAIN cohort were enrolled in 2018-2019 where the DSM5 was applicable, the patients from the ALCOHOLBIS cohort were recruited many years before. The protocol related to the ALCOHOLBIS cohort was written before 2013, and approved by ethical committee, where the DSM-IV was the last version of the DSM used at that moment. 

      We therefore totally agree with the reviewer that our sentence “the severity of AUD was "evaluated by a psychiatrist using the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) criteria, fourth edition (DSM-IV) (ALCOHOLBIS cohort) or fifth edition (DSM-5)" (GUT2BRAIN cohort)” is not correct. Indeed, DSM-IV (before 2013) described two distinct disorders, alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence, while the DSM-5 integrates the two DSM-IV disorders into a single disorder called alcohol use disorder with mild (2 or 3 symptoms), moderate (4 or 5 symptoms) and severe (6 or more symptoms) sub-classifications.

      In this present study, we have enrolled patients that received the diagnosis of alcohol dependence (DSM-IV criteria) or severe alcohol use disorder (DSM5 criteria).

      We have changed the paragraph related to this issue into this new one:

      “The severity of AUD was evaluated by a psychiatrist using the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) criteria, fourth edition (DSM-IV) (Alcoholbis cohort) or fifth edition (DSM-5) (GUT2BRAIN cohort). Patients evaluated with the DSM-IV received the diagnosis of “alcohol dependence”, while the patients evaluated with the DSM-5 received the diagnosis of “severe alcohol use disorder” (6 or more criteria). To simplify, we used the term “sAUD” (for severe alcohol use disorder) that includes both diagnosis (sAUD and alcohol dependence)”.

      I am unsure about the shared first co-authorship and the shared last co-authorship request, but I leave this up to the editors and the journal policies. Also, the order of the different parts may be correct (the M+M placed last) but is unusual for many journals. This is also up to the journal to decide.

      As mentioned in the guidelines to authors, the method section should be included at the end of the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, James Lee, Lu Bai, and colleagues use a multifaceted approach to investigate the relationship between transcription factor condensate formation, transcription, and 3D gene clustering of the MET regulon in the model organism S. cerevisiae. This study represents a second clear example of inducible transcriptional condensates in budding yeast, as most evidence for transcriptional condensates arises from studies of mammalian systems. In addition, this study links the genomic location of transcriptional condensates to the potency of transcription of a reporter gene regulated by the master transcription factor contained in the condensate. The strength of evidence supporting these two conclusions is strong. Less strong is evidence supporting the claim that Met4-containing condensates mediate the clustering of genes in the MET regulon.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is for the most part clearly written, with the overriding model and specific hypothesis being tested clearly explained. Figure legends are particularly well written. An additional strength of the manuscript is that most of the main conclusions are supported by the data. This includes the propensity of Met4 and Met32 to form puncta-like structures under inducing conditions, formation of Met32-containing LLPS-like droplets in vitro (within which Met4 can colocalize), colocalization of Met4-GFP with Met4-target genes under inducing conditions, enhanced transcription of a Met3pr-GFP reporter when targeted within 1.5 - 5 kb of select Met4 target genes, and most impressively, evidence that several MET genes appear to reposition under transcriptionally inducing conditions. The latter is based on a recently reported novel in vivo methylation assay, MTAC, developed by the Bai lab.

      Weaknesses:

      My principal concern is that the authors fail to show convincing evidence for a key conclusion, highlighted in the title, that nuclear condensates per se drive MET gene clustering. Figure 4E demonstrates that Met4 molecules, not condensates per se, are necessary for fostering distant cis and trans interactions between MET6 and three other Met4 targets under -met inducing conditions. In addition, the paper would be strengthened by discussing a recent study conducted in yeast that comes to many of the same conclusions reported here, including the role of inducible TF condensates in driving 3D genome reorganization (Chowdhary et al, Mol. Cell 2022).

      Following the reviewer’s advice, we carried out MTAC with the VP near MET6 in WT Met4 and ΔIDR2.3 strains (results shown below). The conclusions are somewhat ambiguous. For long-distance interactions with MUP1, YKG9, STR3, and MET13, we indeed observe decreased MTAC signals close to background levels in the ΔIDR2.3 strain, which aligns with the model suggesting that Met4 condensation promotes clustering among Met4 targeted genes. However, we also noticed significant decreases in the local MTAC signals (HIS3 and MET6). It is possible that the changes in Met4 condensates alter the chromosomal folding near MET6, thereby affecting the local MTAC signals. Alternatively, LacI-M.CviPI (the methyltransferase) could be induced to a lesser extent in the ΔIDR2.3 strain, leading to a genome-wide decrease in MTAC signals. Due to this ambiguity, we decided not to include the following plot in the main figure.

      Author response image 1.

      We discussed Hsf1 and added the suggested reference on page 13.

      Other concerns:

      (1) A central premise of the study is that the inducible formation of condensates underpins the induction of MET gene transcription and MET gene clustering. Yet, Figure 1 suggests (and the authors acknowledge) that puncta-like Met4-containing structures pre-exist in the nuclei of non-induced cells. Thus, the transcription and gene reorganization observed is due to a relatively modest increase in condensate-like structures. Are we dealing with two different types of Met4 condensates? (For example, different combinations of Met4 with its partners; Mediator- or Pol II-lacking vs. Mediator- or Pol II-containing; etc.?) At the very least, a comment to this effect is necessary.

      Although Met4 can form smaller puncta in the +met condition (Figure 1A), it cannot be recruited to its target genes due to the absence of its sequence-specific binding partners, Met31 and Met32 (these two factors are actively degraded in the +met condition). Consistently, in the +met condition, Met4 shows extremely low genome-wide ChIP signals (Figure 3C). Therefore, these Met4 puncta in +met do not have organize the 3D genome or have gene regulatory functions. This discussion is added on page 12.

      (2) Using an in vitro assay, the authors demonstrate that Met4 colocalizes with Met32 LLPS droplets (Figure 2F). Is the same true in vivo - that is, is Met32 required for Met4 condensation? This could be readily tested using auxin-induced degradation of Met32. Along similar lines, the claim that Met32 is required for MET gene clustering (line 250) requires auxin-induced degradation of this protein.

      As the reviewer pointed out above, cells in the +met condition also show small Met4 puncta. In this condition, Met32 is essentially undetectable (Met31 level is even lower and remains undetectable even in the -met conditions). Therefore, Met4 does not strictly require the presence of Met32 in vivo (may require other factors or modifications). Met4 does not have DNA-binding activity, and therefore it cannot target and organize chromosomes on its own. Although we did not do the Met32 degradation experiment, we measured the 3D genome conformation in +met and showed that there are no detectable interactions among Met4 target genes.

      (3) The authors use a single time point during -met induction (2 h) to evaluate TF clustering, transcription (mRNA abundance), and 3D restructuring. It would be informative to perform a kinetic analysis since such an analysis could reveal whether TF clustering precedes transcriptional induction or MET gene repositioning. Do the latter two phenomena occur concurrently or does one precede the other?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful question. It is indeed intriguing to consider whether TF clustering precedes transcriptional induction and MET gene clustering. However, as mentioned on page 12 of our manuscript, this experiment poses significant challenges. The low intensities of the Met4 and Met32 signals necessitate high excitation for imaging, which also makes them prone to photo-bleaching. Consequently, we have been unable to measure the dynamics of Met4 and Met32 puncta in vivo, let alone co-image them with DNA/RNA. Undertaking this experiment will require considerable effort, which we plan to pursue in the future.

      (4) Based on the MTAC assay, MET13 does not appear to engage in trans interactions with other Met4 targets, whereas MET6 does (Figures 4C and 4E). Does this difference stem from the greater occupancy of Met4 at MET6 vs. MET13, greater association of another Met co-factor with the chromatin of MET6 vs. MET13, or something else?

      We were also surprised by this result, given that MET13 emerged as one of the strongest transcriptional hotspots in our previous screen. It also exhibits one of the highest Met4 ChIP signals and is closely associated with the nuclear pore complex. Our earlier findings indicate that DNA dynamics near the VP significantly influence the MTAC signal; specifically, a VP with constrained motion is less effective at methylating interacting sites (Li et al., 2024). Therefore, it is plausible that MET13 is associated with a large Met4 condensate, which constrains the motion of nearby chromatin and diminishes MTAC efficiency.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript combines live yeast cell imaging and other genomic approaches to study how transcription factor (TF) condensates might help organize and enhance the transcription of the target genes in the methionine starvation response pathway. The authors show that the TFs in this response can form phase-separated condensates through their intrinsically disordered regions (IDRs), and mediate the spatial clustering of the related endogenous genes as well as reporter inserted near the endogenous target loci.

      Strengths:

      This work uses rigorous experimental approaches, such as imaging of endogenously labeled TFs, determining expression and clustering of endogenous target genes, and reporter integration near the endogenous target loci. The importance of TFs is shown by rapid degradation. Single-cell data are combined with genomic sequencing-based assays. Control loci engineered in the same way are usually included. Some of these controls are very helpful in showing the pathway-specific effect of the TF condensates in enhancing transcription.

      Weaknesses:

      Perhaps the biggest weakness of this work is that the role of IDR and phase separation in mediating the target gene clustering is unclear. This is an important question. TF IDRs may have many functions including mediating phase separation and binding to other transcriptional molecules (not limited to proteins and may even include RNAs). The effect of IDR deletion on reduced Fano number in cells could come from reduced binding with other molecules. This should be tested on phase separation of the purified protein after IDR deletion. Also, the authors have not shown IDR deletion affects the clustering of the target genes, so IDR deletion may affect the binding of other molecules (not the general transcription machinery) that are specifically important for target gene transcription. If the self-association of the IDR is the main driving force of the clustering and target gene transcription enhancement, can one replace this IDR with totally unrelated IDRs that have been shown to mediate phase separation in non-transcription systems and still see the gene clustering and transcription enhancement effects? This work has all the setup to test this hypothesis.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point, and we tried more in vitro and in vivo experiments with Met4 IDR deletions. See the answer to Reviewer 1 for the in vivo 3D mapping experiment.

      We purified Met4-ΔIDR2 with an MBP tag, but its low yield made labeling and conducting thorough experiments challenging. At concentrations above ~10 μM, the protein tends to aggregate, while at lower concentrations, it remains diffusive in solution and does not form condensates. When we mixed purified Met4-ΔIDR2 with Met32, we observed reduced partitioning inside Met32 condensates compared to the full-length Met4. As the reviewer noted, this diminished interaction may contribute to the decreased puncta formation observed in vivo. This result is added to the manuscript on page 11 and supplementary figure 5.

      The Met4 protein was tagged with MBP but Met 32 was not. MBP tag is well known to enhance protein solubility and prevent phase separation. This made the comparison of their in vitro phase behavior very different and led the authors to think that maybe Met32 is the scaffold in the co-condensates. If MBP was necessary to increase yield and solubility during expression and purification, it should be cleaved (a protease cleavage site should be engineered) to allow phase separation in vitro.

      Following the reviewer’s advice, we purified Met4-TEV-MBP so that the MBP can be cleaved off. Unfortunately, concentrated Met4-TEV-MBP needs to be stored at high salt (400mM) to be soluble. When exchanged into a suitable buffer for TEV cleavage (≤200 mM NaCl), nearly all soluble protein aggregates. Attempts to digest the protein in storage buffer results in observable aggregation before significant cleavage (see below).  

      Author response image 2.

      Are ATG36 and LDS2 also supposed to be induced by -met? This should be explained clearly. The signals are high at -met.

      Genomic loci ATG36 and LDS2 were chosen as controls because they are not bound by Met TFs (ChIP-seq tracks) and their expressions are not induced by -met (RNA-seq data). This information is added to the manuscript on page 9. When MET3pr-GFP reporter is inserted into these loci, GFP is induced by -met (because it is driven by the MET3 promoter), but the induction level is less than the same reporter inserted into the transcriptional hotspot like MET13 and MET6 (Figure 6E, also see Du et al., Plos Genetics, 2017).

      ChIP-seq data:

      Author response image 3.

      RNA-seq counts:

      Author response table 1.

      Figure 6B, the Met4-GFP seems to form condensates at all three loci without a very obvious difference, though 6C shows a difference. 6C is from only one picture each. The authors should probably quantify the signals from a large number of randomly selected pictures (cells) and do statistics.

      If we understand this comment correctly, the reviewer is referring to the fact that all three loci in Figure 6B appear to show a peak in GFP intensity. This pattern emerges because these images are averaged among many cells (number of cells analyzed in 6B has been added to the Figure legends). GFP intensities near the center will always be higher because peripheral pixels are more likely to fall outside the nuclei boundaries, where Met4 signals are absent (same as in Figure 3F). Importantly, MET6 locus shows higher intensity near the center in comparison to PUT1 and ATG36, indicating its co-localization with Met4 condensates.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors probe the connections between clustering of the Met4/32 transcription factors (TFs), clustering of their regulatory targets, and transcriptional regulation. While there is an increasing number of studies on TF clustering in vitro and in vivo, there is an important need to probe whether clustering plays a functional role in gene expression. Another important question is whether TF clustering leads to the clustering of relevant gene targets in vivo. Here the authors provide several lines of evidence to make a compelling case that Met4/32 and their target genes cluster and that this leads to an increase in transcription of these genes in the induced state. First, they found that, in the induced state, Met4/32 forms co-localized puncta in vivo. This is supported by in vitro studies showing that these TFs can form condensates in vitro with Med32 being the driver of these condensates. They found that two target genes, MET6 and MET13 have a higher probability of being co-localized with Met4 puncta compared with non-target loci. Using a targeted DNA methylation assay, they found that MET13 and MET6 show Met4-dependent long-range interactions with other Met4-regulated loci, consistent with the clustering of at least some target genes under induced conditions. Finally, by inserting a Met4-regulated reporter gene at variable distances from MET6, they provide evidence that insertion near this gene is a modest hotspot for activity.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Please provide more information on the assay for puncta formation (Figure 1). It's unclear to me from the description provided how this assay was able to quantitate the number of puncta in cells.

      Due to the variation in puncta size and intensity (as illustrated in Figure 1A), counting the number of puncta would be highly subjective with arbitrary cutoffs. Therefore, we chose to calculate the CV and Fano values instead, which are unbiased measures. Proteins that form puncta will exhibit greater pixel-to-pixel variations in GFP intensity, resulting in higher CV and Fano values.

      (2) How does the number of puncta in cells correspond with the number of Met-regulated genes? What are the implications of this calculation?

      As previously mentioned, defining the exact number of Met4 puncta is challenging. The number of puncta does not necessarily have one-to-one correspondence to the number of Met4 target genes. Some puncta may not be associated with chromosomes, while others may interact with multiple genes.

      (3) A control for chromosomal insertion of the Met-regulated reporter was a GAL4 promoter derivative reporter. However, this control promoter seems 5-10 fold more active than the Met-regulated promoter (Figure 6). It's possible that the high activity from the control promoter overcomes some other limiting step such that chromosomal location isn't important. It would be ideal if the authors used a promoter with comparable activity to the Met-reporter as a control.

      We agree with the reviewer that it will be better to use another promoter with comparable activity. Indeed, this was our rationale for selecting the attenuated GAL1 promoter over the WT version; however, it still exhibited substantially higher activity than the MET3pr. Unfortunately, we do not have a promoter from a different pathway that is calibrated to match the activity level of MET3pr. Nonetheless, MET17pr has much higher activity (~3 fold) than MET3pr, and we observed similar degree of stimulus from the hotspot in comparison to the control locus for both promoters (1.5-2-fold increase in GFP expression) (Figure 6E & F). This suggests that the observed effects are more likely to depend on the activation pathway and TF identity rather than the promoter strength.

      (4) It seems like transcription from a very large number of genes is altered in the Met4 IDR mutant (Figure 7F). Why is this and could this variability affect the conclusions from this experiment?

      We agree with the reviewer that ΔIDR 2.3 truncation affects the expression of 2711 (P-adj <0.05) genes (1339 up,1372 down). We suspect that this is due to the decreased expression of Met4 target genes, leading to altered levels of methionine and other sulfur-containing metabolites. Such changes would have a global impact on gene expression. Importantly, despite the similar number of genes that show up vs down regulation in the ΔIDR 2.3 strain, almost all Met4 targets showed decreased expression (Fig 7F). This supports the model where Met4 condensates lead to increased expression in its target genes.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      (1) The introduction contains multiple miscitations. Rather than gene clustering, most of the studies and reviews cited (e.g., lines 35-39) report interactions between genomic loci (E-E, E-P, and P-P). There are other claims not supported by the papers cited. Moreover, the authors lump together original research papers and reviews within a given group without distinguishing which is which.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We reorganized the references in the introduction.

      (2) One option to address the concern regarding the lack of evidence that nuclear condensates per se drive MET gene clustering is to test the impact of Met4 ΔIDR2.3 on MTAC signals.

      We carried out the suggested experiment. See answer above (Reviewer #1, Question #1).

      (3) Authors claim that there are significant differences between values depicted in Figures 1B and 3G. Statistical tests are necessary to show this.

      Significance values were calculated in comparison to free GFP using two-tailed Student’s t-test in 1B,1C, and 3G. The corresponding figure legends are updated.

      (4) How are the data in Figures 3F, G, and 6B, C generated? This is unclear from the information provided in the Figure legends and Materials and Methods.

      For each cell, we projected the highest mCherry and GFP intensity at each pixel for all z positions onto a 2D plane (MIP). The MIP images were aligned with the mCherry dot at the center and averaged among all cells. To calculate the GFP intensities like in Figure 3G and 6C, a single line was drawn across the center and the GFP profile was analyzed by ImageJ. We now describe this in the corresponding figure legends, and the Materials and Methods are also updated.

      (5) Typos/ unclear writing: lines 24, 58, 79, 82, 84, 96, 117, 121, 131, 142, 147, 161 (terminus, not "terminal"), 250, 325, 349, 761 (was, not "are"). For several of these: "condense" is not "condensate"; for many others: inappropriate use of "the". Supplementary Figure 1 legend: not "a single nuclei" instead "a single nucleus".

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We tried our best to correct grammatical errors.

      (6) Define GAL1Spr (Figure 6F).

      The GAL1S promoter is an attenuated GAL1 promoter that lacks two out of the four Gal4 binding site. The original paper is now cited in the manuscript on page 10.  

      (7) Figure 7B, C: there appears to be an inconsistency between the image and bar graph value for ΔIDR3.

      The Fano values calculated in 7C are averaged among a population of cells (we added the cell numbers to the legend), while the image in 7B is an example of an individual nucleus. There is some cell-to-cell variability in how the Met4 appears. To be more representative, we chose a different image for ΔIDR3.

      (8) Supplementary Tables: use descriptive titles for file names.

      This is corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor:

      Figure 4F is not cited in the text, and the color legend seems wrong for targeted and control.

      Figure 4F is now cited in the text. The labels were corrected.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The investigators in this study analyzed the dataset assembly from 540 Salmonella isolates, and those from 45 recent isolates from Zhejiang University of China. The analysis and comparison of the resistome and mobilome of these isolates identified a significantly higher rate of cross-region dissemination compared to localized propagation. This study highlights the key role of the resistome in driving the transition and evolutionary 

      Thank you for summarizing our work. According to your comments, we carefully considered and responded to them and made corresponding revisions to the text. Additionally, to fully contextualize the background knowledge and clarify the major points in this study, we add some references.

      Upon further review of our initial manuscript, we realized that the original submission did not strictly follow the lineage order proposed by Zhou et al. (Natl Sci Rev. 2023 Sep 2;10(10):nwad228). To avoid confusion and keep the uniform knowledge in the typing system, we have adjusted the lineage nomenclature along the revised manuscript to reflect the corrected order as follows:

      Author response table 1.

      To ensure consistency with previous studies, we have revised the nomenclature for the different lineages of bvSP.

      Strengths: 

      The isolates included in this study were from 16 countries in the past century (1920 to 2023). While the study uses S. Gallinarun as the prototype, the conclusion from this work will likely apply to other Salmonella serotypes and other pathogens. 

      Thanks for the constructive comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      Weaknesses: 

      While the isolates came from 16 countries, most strains in this study were originally from China. 

      We appreciate the reviewer's observation regarding the sampling distribution of isolates in this study. We acknowledge that while the isolates were collected from 15 different countries, with a significant proportion originated from China (Author response image 1). This focus is due to several reasons:

      Author response image 1.

      Geographic distribution of 580 S. Gallinarum. Different colors indicate the countries of origin for the 580 S. Gallinarum strains in the dataset. Darker shades represent higher numbers of strains.

      (1) As once a globally prevalent pathogen across the 20th century, S. Gallinarum was listed by the World Organization for Animal Health (WOAH) due to its economic importance. After 30 years of implementation of the National Poultry Improvement Plan in the US, it was almost eradicated in high-income countries, and interestingly, it became an endemic pathogen with sporadic outbreaks in most low- or middle-income countries like China and Brazil. Given the vast expanse of China's land area and the country's economic factors, implementing the same measures remains challenging.  

      (2) S. Gallinarum is an avian-specific pathogen, particularly affecting chickens, and its distribution is closely linked to chicken meat production in different countries. There are more frequent reports of fowl typhoid in some high chicken-producing developing countries. Data from the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) on annual chicken meat production for 2023/2024 show that the global distribution of S. Gallinarum aligns closely with the overall chicken meat production of these countries (https://fas.usda.gov/data/production/commodity/0115000).

      Author response image 2.

      The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) data on annual chicken meat production for 2023/2024 across different countries globally.

      (3) Our primary objective was to investigate the localized resistome adaptation of S. Gallinarum in regions. Being a region with significant disease burden, China has reported numerous outbreaks (Sci Data. 2022 Aug 13;9(1):495; Sci Data. 2024 Feb 27;11(1):244) and a high AMR prevalence of this serovar (Natl Sci Rev. 2023 Sep 2;10(10):nwad228; mSystems. 2023 Dec 21;8(6):e0088323), making it an excellent example for understanding localized resistance mechanisms.

      (4) As China is the primary country of origin for the strains in this study, it is necessary to ensure that the strains from China are consistent with the local geographic characteristics of the country. Therefore, we conducted a correlation analysis between the number of strains from different provinces in China and the total GDP/population size of those provinces (Author response image 3). The results show that most points fall within the 95% confidence interval of the regression line. Although some points exhibit relative unbalance in the number of S. Gallinarum strains, most data points for these regions have a small sample size (n < 15). Overall, we found that the prevalence of S. Gallinarum in different regions of China is consistent with the overall nationwide trend.

      Author response image 3.

      Correlation analysis between the number of S. Gallinarum collected from different provinces in China and the total GDP/population size. The figure depicts a series of points representing individual provinces. The x-axis indicates the number of S. Gallinarum included in the dataset, while the y-axis displays the values for total GDP and total population size, respectively.

      Nevertheless, a search of nearly a decade of literature on PubMed and a summary of the S. Gallinarum genome available on public databases indicate that the dataset used is the most complete. Furthermore, focusing on a specific region within China allowed us to conduct a detailed and thorough analysis. However, we highly agree that expanding the study to include more isolates from other countries would enhance the generalizability of our findings, and we are actively collecting additional S. Gallinarum genome data. In the revised manuscript, we have further emphasized the limitations as follow:

      Lines 427-429: “However, the current study has some limitations. Firstly, despite assembling the most comprehensive WGS database for S. Gallinarum from public and laboratory sources, there are still biases in the examined collection. The majority (438/580) of S. Gallinarum samples were collected from China, possibly since the WGS is a technology that only became widely available in the 21st century. This makes it impractical to sequence it on a large scale in the 20th century, when S. Gallinarum caused a global pandemic. So, we suspect that human intervention in the development of this epidemic is the main driving force behind the fact that most of the strains in the data set originated in China. In our future work, we aim to actively gather more data to minimize potential biases within our dataset, thereby improving the robustness and generalizability of our findings.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors sequence 45 new samples of S. Gallinarum, a commensal Salmonella found in chickens, which can sometimes cause disease. They combine these sequences with around 500 from public databases, determine the population structure of the pathogen, and coarse relationships of lineages with geography. The authors further investigate known anti-microbial genes found in these genomes, how they associate with each other, whether they have been horizontally transferred, and date the emergence of clades. 

      Thank you for your constructive suggestions, which are valuable and highly beneficial for improving our paper. According to your comments, we carefully considered and responded to them and made corresponding revisions to the text. Furthermore, to fully contextualize the background knowledge and clarify the major points in this study, we add some references to support our findings and policy implications.

      Upon further review of our initial manuscript, we realized that the original submission did not strictly follow the lineage order proposed by Zhou et al. (Natl Sci Rev. 2023 Sep 2;10(10):nwad228). To avoid confusion in the typing system, we have adjusted the lineage nomenclature in the revised manuscript to reflect the corrected order (see Author response table 1).

      Strengths: 

      (1) It doesn't seem that much is known about this serovar, so publicly available new sequences from a high-burden region are a valuable addition to the literature. 

      (2) Combining these sequences with publicly available sequences is a good way to better contextualise any findings. 

      Thank you so much for your thorough review and constructive comments on the manuscript.

      Weaknesses: 

      There are many issues with the genomic analysis that undermine the conclusions, the major ones I identified being: 

      (1) Recombination removal using gubbins was not presented fully anywhere. In this diversity of species, it is usually impossible to remove recombination in this way. A phylogeny with genetic scale and the gubbins results is needed. Critically, results on timing the emergence (fig2) depend on this, and cannot be trusted given the data presented. 

      We sincerely thank you for pointing out this issue. In the original manuscript, we aimed to present different lineages of S. Gallinarum within a single phylogenetic tree constructed using BEAST. However, in the revised manuscript, we have addressed this issue by applying the approach recommended by Gubbins to remove recombination events for each lineage defined by FastBAPs. Additionally, to better illustrate the removal of recombination regions in the genome, we have included a figure generated by Gubbins (New Supplementary Figure 12). 

      Our results indicate that recombination events are relatively infrequent in Lineage 1, followed by Lineage 3, but occur more frequently in Lineage 2. In the revised manuscript, we have included additional descriptions in the Methods section to clarify this analysis. We hope these modifications adequately address the reviewer’s concerns and enhance the trustworthiness of our findings.

      (2) The use of BEAST was also only briefly presented, but is the basis of a major conclusion of the paper. Plot S3 (root-to-tip regression) is unconvincing as a basis of this data fitting a molecular clock model. We would need more information on this analysis, including convergence and credible intervals. 

      Thank you very much for raising this issue. We decided to reconduct separate BEAST analyses for each lineage, accurately presenting the evolutionary scale based on the abovementioned improvements. The implementation of individual lineage for BEAST analysis was conducted based on the following steps:

      (1) Using R51 as the reference, a reference-mapped multiple core-genome SNP sequence alignment was created, and recombination regions were detected and removed as described above.

      (2) TreeTime was used to assess the temporal structure by performing a regression analysis of the root-to-tip branch distances within the maximum likelihood tree, considering the sampling date as a variable (New Supplementary Figures 6). However, the root-to-tip regression analysis presented in New Supplementary Figures 6 was not intended as a basis for selecting the best molecular clock model; its purpose was to clean the dataset with appropriate measurements.

      (3) To determine the optimal model for running BEAST, we tested a total of six combinations in the initial phase of our study. These combinations included the strict clock, relaxed lognormal clock, and three population models (Bayesian SkyGrid, Bayesian Skyline, and Constant Size). Before conducting the complete BEAST analysis, we evaluated each combination using a Markov Chain Monte Carlo (MCMC) analysis with a total chain length of 100 million and sampling every 10,000 iterations. We then summarized the results using NSLogAnalyser and determined the optimal model based on the marginal likelihood value for each combination. The results indicated that the model incorporating the Bayesian Skyline and the relaxed lognormal clock yielded the highest marginal likelihood value in our sample. Then, we proceeded to perform a timecalibrated Bayesian phylogenetic inference analysis for each lineage. The following settings were configured: the "GTR" substitution model, “4 gamma categories”, the "Relaxed Clock Log Normal" model, the "Coalescent Bayesian Skyline" tree prior, and an MCMC chain length of 100 million, with sampling every 10,000 iterations.

      (4) Convergence was assessed using Tracer, with all parameter effective sampling sizes (ESS) exceeding 200. Maximum clade credibility trees were generated using TreeAnnotator. Finally, key divergence time points (with 95% credible intervals) were estimated, and the tree was visualized using FigTree. 

      For the key lineages, L2b and L3b (carrying the resistome, posing antimicrobial resistance (AMR) risks, and exhibiting intercontinental transmission events), we have redrawn Figure 2 based on the updated BEAST analysis results (New Figure 2). For L1, L2a, and L3c, we have added supplementary figures to provide a more detailed visualization of their respective BEAST analysis outcomes (New Supplementary Figures 3-5). The revised BEAST analysis indicates that the origin of L3b in China can be traced back to as early as 1683 (95% CI: 1608 to 1839). In contrast, the earliest possible origin of L2b in China dates back to 1880 (95% CI: 1838 to 1902). This indicates that the previous manuscript's assumption that L2b is an older lineage compared to L3b may be inaccurate. 

      Furthermore, In the revised manuscript, we specifically estimated the time points for the first intercontinental transmission events for the two major lineages, L2b and L3b. Our results indicate that L2b, likely underwent two major intercontinental transmission events. The first occurred around 1893 (95% CI: 1870 to 1918), with transmission from China to South America. The second major transmission event occurred in 1923 (95% CI: 1907 to 1940), involving the spread from South America to Europe. In contrast, the transmission pattern of L3b appears relatively more straightforward. Our findings show that L3b, an S. Gallinarum lineage originating in China, only underwent one intercontinental transmission event from China to Europe, likely occurring around 1790 (95% CI: 1661 to 1890) (New Supplementary Figure 7). Based on the more critical BEAST analysis for each lineage, we have revised the corresponding conclusions in the manuscript. We believe that the updated BEAST analysis, performed using a more accurate recombination removal approach, significantly enhances the rigor and credibility of our findings.

      (3) Using a distance of 100 SNPs for a transmission is completely arbitrary. This would at least need to be justified in terms of the evolutionary rate and serial interval. 

      Using single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) distance to trace pathogen transmission is a common approach (J Infect Dis. 2015 Apr 1;211(7):1154-63) and in our previous studies (hLife 2024; 2(5):246-256. mLife 2024; 3(1):156-160.). When the SNP distance within a cluster falls below a set threshold, the strains in that cluster are considered to have a potential direct transmission link. It is generally accepted that the lower the threshold, the more stringent the screening process becomes. However, there is little agreement in the literature regarding what such a threshold should be, and the appropriate SNP cut-off for inferring transmission likely depends critically on the context (Mol Biol Evol. 2019 Mar 1;36(3):587-603).

      In this study, we compared various thresholds (SNPs = 5, 10, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 50, 100) to ensure clustering in an appropriate manner. First, we summarized the tracing results under each threshold (Author response image 4), which demonstrated that, regardless of the threshold used, all strains associated with transmission events originated from the same location (New Figure 3a).

      Author response image 4.

      Clustering results of 45 newly isolated S. Gallinarum strains using different SNP thresholds of 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 28, 30, 50, and 100 SNPs. The nine subplots represent the clustering results under each threshold. Each point corresponds to an individual strain, and lines connect strains with potential transmission relationships.

      In response to your comments regarding the evolutionary rate, we estimated the overall evolutionary rate of the S. Gallinarum using BEAST. We applied the methodology described by Arthur W. Pightling et al. (Front Microbiol. 2022 Jun 16; 13:797997). The numbers of SNPs per year were determined by multiplying the evolutionary rates estimated with BEAST by the number of core SNP sites identified in the alignments. We hypothesize that a slower evolutionary rate in bacteria typically requires a lower SNP threshold when tracing transmission events using SNP distance analysis. Pightling et al.'s previous research found an average evolutionary rate of 1.97 SNPs per year (95% HPD, 0.48 to 4.61) across 22 different Salmonella serotypes. Our updated BEAST estimation for the evolutionary rate of S. Gallinarum suggests it is approximately 0.74 SNPs per year (95% HPD, 0.42 to 1.06). Based on these findings, and our previous experience with similar studies (mBio. 2023 Oct 31;14(5):e0133323.), we set a threshold of 5 SNPs in the revised manuscript.

      Then, we adopted the newly established SNP distance threshold (n=5) to update Figure 3a and New Supplementary Figure 8. The heatmap on the far right of New Figure 3a illustrates the SNP distances among 45 newly isolated S. Gallinarum strains from two locations in Zhejiang Province (Taishun and Yueqing). New Supplementary Figure 8 simulates potential transmission events between the bvSP strains isolated from Zhejiang Province (n=95) and those from China with available provincial information (n=435). These analyses collectively demonstrate the localized transmission pattern of bvSP within China. Our analysis using the newly established SNP threshold indicates that the 45 strains isolated from Taishun and Yueqing exhibit a highly localized transmission pattern, with pairs of strains exhibiting potential transmission events below the set threshold occurring exclusively within a single location. Subsequently, we conducted the SNP distance-based tracing analysis for the 95 strains from Zhejiang Province and those from China with available provincial information (n=435) (New Supplementary Figure 8, New Supplementary Table S8). Under the SNP distance threshold (n=5), we identified a total of 91 potential transmission events, all of which occurred exclusively within Zhejiang Province. No inter-provincial transmission events were detected. Based on these findings, we revised the methods and conclusions in the manuscript accordingly. We believe that the updated version well addresses your concerns.

      Nevertheless, the final revised and updated results do not change the conclusions presented in our original manuscript. Instead, applying a more stringent SNP distance threshold allows us to provide solid evidence supporting the localized transmission pattern of S. Gallinarum in China. 

      (4) The HGT definition is non-standard, and phylogeny (vertical inheritance) is not controlled for.  

      The cited method: 

      'In this study, potentially recently transferred ARGs were defined as those with perfect identity (more than 99% nucleotide identity and 100% coverage) in distinct plasmids in distinct host bacteria using BLASTn (E-value {less than or equal to}10−5)' 

      This clearly does not apply here, as the application of distinct hosts and plasmids cannot be used. Subsequent analysis using this method is likely invalid, and some of it (e.g. Figure 6c) is statistically very poor. 

      Thank you for raising this important question. In our study, Horizontal Gene Transfer (HGT) is defined as the transfer of genetic information between different organisms, a process that facilitates the spread of antibiotic resistance genes (ARGs) among bacteria. This definition of HGT is consistent with that used in previous studies (Evol Med Public Health. 2015; 2015(1):193–194; ISME J. 2024 Jan 8;18(1):wrad032). In Salmonella, the transfer of antimicrobial resistance genes via HGT is not solely dependent on plasmids; other mobile genetic elements (MGEs), such as transposons, integrons, and prophages, also play significant roles. This has also  been documented in our previous work (mSystems. 2023 Dec 21;8(6):e0088323). Given the involvement of various MGEs in the horizontal transfer of ARGs, we propose that the criteria for evaluating horizontal transfer via plasmids can also be applied to ARGs mediated by other MGEs.

      In this study, we adopted stricter criteria than those used by Xiaolong Wang et al. Specifically, we defined two ARGs as identical only if they exhibited 100% nucleotide identity and 100% coverage. To address concerns regarding the potential influence of vertical inheritance in our analysis, we have made the following improvements. In the revised manuscript, we provide a more detailed table that includes the co-localization analysis of each ARG with mobile genetic elements (New Supplementary Table 9). For prophages and plasmids, we required that ARGs be located directly within these elements. In contrast, for transposons and integrons, we considered ARGs to be associated if they were located within a 5 kb region upstream or downstream of these elements (Nucleic Acids Res. 2022 Jul 5;50(W1):W768-W773). 

      In the revised manuscript, we first categorized a total of 621 ARGs carried by 436 bvSP isolates collected in China according to the aforementioned criteria and found that 415 ARGs were located on MGEs. After excluding the ARGs not associated with MGEs, we recalculated the overall HGT frequency of 10 types of ARGs in China, the horizontal ARGs transfer frequency in three key regions, and the horizontal ARGs transfer frequency within a single region (New Supplementary Table 7). Based on the results, we updated relevant sections of the manuscript and remade Figure 6. The updated manuscript describes the results of this section as follows:

      “Horizontal transfer of resistome occurs widely in localized bvSP

      Horizontal transfer of the resistome facilitates the acquisition of AMR among bacteria, which may record the distinct acquisition event in the bacterial genome. To compare these events in a geographic manner, we further investigated the HGT frequency of each ARG carried by bvSP isolated from China and explored the HGT frequency of resistome between three defined regions. Potentially horizontally transferred ARGs were defined as those with perfect identity (100% identity and 100% coverage) and were located on MGEs across different strains (Fig. 6a). We first categorized a total of 621 ARGs carried by 436 bvSP isolates collected in China and found that 415 ARGs were located on MGEs. After excluding the ARGs not associated with MGEs, our findings reveal that horizontal gene transfer of ARGs is widespread among Chinese bvSP isolates, with an overall transfer rate of 92%. Specifically, 50% of the ARGs exhibited an HGT frequency of 100%, indicating that these ARGs might underwent extensive frequent horizontal transfer events (Fig. 6b). It is noteworthy that certain resistance genes, such as tet(A), aph(3'')-Ib, and aph(6)-Id, appear to be less susceptible to horizontal transfer.

      However, different regions generally exhibited a considerable difference in resistome HGT frequency. Overall, bvSP from the southern areas in China showed the highest HGT frequency (HGT frequency=95%). The HGT frequencies for bvSP within the eastern and northern regions of China are lower, at 92% and 91%, respectively (Fig. 6c). For specifical ARG type, we found tet(A) is more prone to horizontal transfer in the southern region, and this proportion was considerably lower in the eastern region. Interestingly, certain ARGs such as aph(6)-Id, undergo horizontal transfer only within the eastern and northern regions of China (Fig. 6d). Notably, as a localized transmission pathogen, resistome carried by bvSP exhibited a dynamic potential among inter-regional and local demographic transmission, especially from northern region to southern region (HGT frequency=93%) (Fig. 6e, Supplementary Table 7).”

      We also modified the current version of the pipeline used to calculat the HGT frequency of resistance genes. In the revised pipeline, users are required to provide a file specifying the locations of mobilome on the genome before formally calculating the HGT frequency of the target ARGs. The specific code and data used in the calculation have been uploaded to https://github.com/tjiaa/Cal_HGT_Frequency.

      However, we also acknowledge that the current in silico method has some limitations. This approach heavily relies heavily on prior information in existing resistome/mobilome databases. Additionally, the characteristics of second-generation sequencing data make it challenging to locate gene positions precisely. Using complete genome assemblies might be a crucial approach to address this issue effectively. In the revised manuscript, we have also provided a more detailed explanation of the implications of the current pipeline.

      Regarding your second concern, "some of it (e.g., Figure 6c) is statistically very poor," the horizontal ARG transfer frequency calculation for each region was based on the proportion of horizontal transfer events of ARGs in that region to the total possible transfer events. As a result, we are unable to calculate the statistical significance between the two regions. Our aim with this approach is to provide a rough estimate of the extent of horizontal ARG transfer within the S. Gallinarum population in each region. In future studies, we will refine our conclusions by developing a broader range of evaluation methods to ensure more comprehensive assessment and validation.

      (5) Associations between lineages, resistome, mobilome, etc do not control for the effect of genetic background/phylogeny. So e.g. the claim 'the resistome also demonstrated a lineage-preferential distribution' is not well-supported. 

      Thank you for your comments. We acknowledge that the associations between lineages and the mobilome/resistome may be influenced by the genetic background or phylogeny of the strains. For instance, our conclusion regarding the lineage-preferential distribution of the resistome was primarily based on New Figure 4a, where L3 is clearly shown to carry the most ARGs. Furthermore, we observed that L3b tends to harbor bla<sub>_TEM-1B</sub>, _sul2, and tet(A) more frequently than other lineages. However, we recognize that this evidence is insufficient to support a definitive conclusion of “demonstrated a lineage-preferential distribution”. Therefore, we have re-examined the current manuscript and described these findings as a potential association between the mobilome/resistome and lineages.

      (6) The invasiveness index is not well described, and the difference in means is not biologically convincing as although it appears significant, it is very small. 

      Thank you for pointing this out. For the invasiveness index mentioned in the manuscript, we used the method described in previous studies. (PLoS Genet. 2018 May 8;14(5), Nat Microbiol. 2021 Mar;6(3):327-338). Specifically, Salmonella’s ability to cause intestinal or extraintestinal infections in hosts is related to the degree of genome degradation. We evaluated the potential for extraintestinal infection by 45 newly isolated S. Gallinarum strains (L2b and L3b) using a model that quantitatively assesses genome degradation. We analyzed samples using the 196 top predictor genes, employing a machine-learning approach that utilizes a random forest classifier and delta-bitscore functional variant-calling. This method evaluated the invasiveness of S. Gallinarum towards the host, and the distribution of invasiveness index values for each region was statistically tested using unpaired t-test. The code used for calculating the invasiveness index is available at https://github.com/Gardner-BinfLab/invasive_salmonella. In the revised manuscript, we added a more detailed description of the invasiveness index calculation in the Methods section as follows:

      Lines 592-603: “Specifically, Salmonella’s ability to cause intestinal or extraintestinal infections in hosts is related to the degree of genome degradation. We evaluated the potential for extraintestinal infection by 45 newly isolated S. Gallinarum strains (L2b and L3b) using a model that quantitatively assesses genome degradation. We analyzed each sample using the 196 top predictor genes for measuring the invasiveness of S. Gallinarum, employing a machine-learning approach that utilizes a random forest classifier and deltabitscore functional variant-calling. This method evaluated the invasiveness of S. Gallinarum towards the host, and the distribution of invasiveness index values for each region was statistically tested using unpaired t-test. The code used for calculating the invasiveness index is available at: https://github.com/Gardner-BinfLab/invasive_salmonella.”

      Regarding the second question, 'the difference in means is not biologically convincing as although it appears significant, it is very small,' we believe that this difference is biologically meaningful. In our previous work, we infected chicken embryos with different lineages of S. Gallinarum (Natl Sci Rev. 2023 Sep 2;10(10):nwad228). The virulence of thirteen strains of Salmonella Gallinarum, comprising five from lineage L2b and eight from lineage L3b, was evaluated in 16-day-old SPF chicken embryos through inoculation into the allantoic cavity. Controls included embryos that inoculated with phosphate-buffered saline (PBS). The embryos were incubated in a thermostatic incubator maintained at 37.5°C with a relative humidity ranging from 50% to 60%. Prior to inoculation, the viability of the embryos was assessed by examining the integrity of their venous system and their movements; any dead embryos were excluded from the study. Overnight cultures resuspended in PBS at a concentration of 1000 CFU per 100 μL were administered to the embryos. Mortality was recorded daily for a period of five days, concluding upon the hatching of the chicks. 

      It is generally accepted that strains with higher invasive capabilities are more likely to cause chicken embryo mortality. Our experimental results showed that the L2b, which exhibits higher invasiveness, with a slightly higher to cause chicken embryo death (Author response image 5). 

      Author response image 5.

      The survival curves of chicken embryos infected with bvSP isolates from S. Gallinarum L2b and S. Gallinarum L3b. Inoculation with Phosphate Buffer Saline (PBS) were considered controls. 

      (7) 'In more detail, both the resistome and mobilome exhibited a steady decline until the 1980s, followed by a consistent increase from the 1980s to the 2010s. However, after the 2010s, a subsequent decrease was identified.' 

      Where is the data/plot to support this? Is it a significant change? Is this due to sampling or phylogenetics? 

      Thank you for highlighting these critical points. The description in this statement is based on New Supplementary Figure 11. On the right side of New Supplementary Figure 11, we presented the average number of Antimicrobial Resistance Genes (ARGs) and Mobile Genetic Elements (MGEs) carried by S. Gallinarum isolates from different years, and we described the overall trend across these years. However, we realized that this statement might overinterpret the data. Given that this sentence does not impact our emphasis on the overall increasing trends observed in the resistome and mobilome, as well as their potential association, we decided to remove it in the revised manuscript.

      The revised paragraph would read as follows:

      Lines 261-268: “Variations in regional antimicrobial use may result in uneven pressure for selecting AMR. The mobilome is considered the primary reservoir for spreading resistome, and a consistent trend between the resistome and the mobilome has been observed across different lineages, from L1-L3c. We observed an overall gradual rise in the resistome quantity carried by bvSP across various lineages, correlating with the total mobilome content (S11 Fig). Furthermore, we investigated the interplay between particular mobile elements and resistome types in bvSP.”

      (8) It is not clear what the burden of disease this pathogen causes in the population, or how significant it is to agricultural policy. The article claims to 'provide valuable insights for targeted policy interventions.', but no such interventions are described. 

      Thank you for your constructive suggestions. Salmonella Gallinarum is an avian-specific pathogen that induces fowl typhoid, a severe systemic disease characterized by high mortality rates in chickens, thereby posing a significant threat to the poultry industry, particularly in developing countries (Rev Sci Tech. 2000 Aug;19(2):40524). In our previous research, we conducted a comprehensive meta-analysis of 201 publications encompassing over 900 million samples to investigate the global impact of S. Gallinarum (Sci Data. 2022 Aug 13;9(1):495). Our findings estimated that the global prevalence of S. Gallinarum is 8.54% (with a 95% confidence interval of 8.43% to 8.65%), with notable regional variations in incidence rates.

      Our previously analysis focused on the prevalence of S. Gallinarum (including biovars SP and SG) across six continents. The results revealed that all continents, except Oceania, exhibited positive prevalences of S. Gallinarum. Asia had the highest prevalence at 17.31%, closely followed by Europe at 16.03%. In Asia, the prevalence of biovar SP was higher than that of biovar SG, whereas in Europe, biovar SG was observed to be approximately two hundred times more prevalent than biovar SP. In South America, the prevalence of S. Gallinarum was higher than that of biovar SP, at 10.06% and 13.20% respectively. Conversely, the prevalence of S. Gallinarum was relatively lower in North America (4.45%) compared to Africa (1.10%) (Author response image 6).

      Given the significant economic losses caused by S. Gallinarum to the poultry industry and the potential risk of escalating antimicrobial resistance, more targeted policy interventions are urgently needed. Further elaboration on this implication is provided in the revised “Discussion” section as follows:

      Lines 401-416: “In summary, the findings of this study highlight that S. Gallinarum remains a significant concern in developing countries, particularly in China. Compared to other regions, S. Gallinarum in China poses a notably higher risk of AMR, necessitating the development of additional therapies, i.e. vaccine, probiotics, bacteriophage therapy in response to the government's policy aimed at reducing antimicrobial use ( J Infect Dev Ctries. 2014 Feb 13;8(2):129-36). Furthermore, given the dynamic nature of S. Gallinarum risks across different regions, it is crucial to prioritize continuous monitoring in key areas, particularly in China's southern regions where the extensive poultry farming is located. Lastly, from a One-Health perspective, controlling AMR in S. Gallinarum should not solely focus on local farming environments, with improved overall welfare on poultry and farming style. The breeding pyramid of industrialized poultry production should be targeted on the top, with enhanced and accurate detection techniques (mSphere. 2024 Jul 30;9(7):e0036224). More importantly, comprehensive efforts should be made to reduce antimicrobial usage overall and mitigate potential AMR transmission from environmental sources or other hosts (Vaccines (Basel). 2024 Sep 18;12(9):1067; Vaccines (Basel). 2023 Apr 18;11(4):865; Front Immunol. 2022 Aug 11:13:973224).”

      Author response image 6.

      A comparison of the global prevalence of S. gallinarum across continents.

      (9) The abstract mentions stepwise evolution as a main aim, but no results refer to this. 

      Thank you for raising this issue. In the revised manuscript, we have changed “stepwise evolution” to simply “evolution” to ensure a more accurate and precise description.

      (10) The authors attribute changes in population dynamics to normalisation in China-EU relations and hen fever. However, even if the date is correct, this is not a strongly supported causal claim, as many other reasons are also possible (for example other industrial processes which may have changed during this period). 

      Thank you for raising this critical issue. In the revised manuscript, we conducted a more stringent BEAST analysis for each lineage, as described earlier. This led to some changes in the inferred evolutionary timelines. Consequently, we have removed the corresponding statement from the “Results” section. Instead, we now only provide a discussion of historical events, supported by literature, that could have facilitated the intercontinental spread of L2b and L3b in the “Discussion” section. We believe these revisions have made the manuscript more rigorous and precise.

      Lines 332-342: “_The biovar types of _S. Gallinarum have been well-defined as bvSP, bvSG, and bvSD historically ( J Vet Med B Infect Dis Vet Public Health. 2005 Jun;52(5):2148). Among these, bvSP can be further subdivided into five lineages (L1, L2a, L2b, L3b, and L3c) using hierarchical Bayesian analysis. Different sublineages exhibited preferential geographic distribution, with L2b and L3b of bvSP being predominant global lineage types with a high risk of AMR. The historical geographical transmission was verified using a spatiotemporal Bayesian framework. The result shows that L3b was initially spread from China to Europe in the 18<sup>th</sup>-19<sup>th</sup> century, which may be associated with the European hen fever event in the mid-19th century (Burnham GP. 1855. The history of the hen fever: a humorous record). L2b, on the other hand, appears to have spread to Europe via South America, potentially contributing to the prevalence of bvSP in the United States.”  

      (11) No acknowledgment of potential undersampling outside of China is made, for example, 'Notably, all bvSP isolates from Asia were exclusively found in China, which can be manually divided into three distinct regions (southern, eastern, and northern).'.

      Perhaps we just haven't looked in other places?

      We appreciate the reviewer's observation regarding the sampling distribution of isolates in this study. We acknowledge that while the isolates were collected from 15 different countries with, a significant proportion originated from China (Author response image 1). This focus is due to several reasons:

      (1) As once a globally prevalent pathogen across the 20th century, S. Gallinarum was listed by the World Organization for Animal Health (WOAH) due to its economic importance. After 30 years of implementation the National Poultry Improvement Plan in the US, it was almost eradicated in high-income countries, and interestingly, it became an endemic pathogen with sporadic outbreaks in most low- or middle-income countries like China and Brazil. Given the vast expanse of China's land area and the country's economic factors, implementing the same measures remains a challenging endeavour. 

      (2) S. Gallinarum is an avian-specific pathogen, particularly affecting chickens, and its distribution is closely linked to chicken meat production in different countries. In some high chicken-producing developing countries, such as China and Brazil, there are more frequent reports of fowl typhoid. Data from the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) on annual chicken meat production for 2023/2024 show that the global distribution of S. Gallinarum aligns closely with the overall chicken meat production of these countries (https://fas.usda.gov/data/production/commodity/0115000).  

      (3) Our primary objective was to investigate the localized resistome adaptation of S. Gallinarum in regions. Being a region with significant disease burden, China has reported numerous outbreaks (Sci Data. 2022 Aug 13;9(1):495; Sci Data. 2024 Feb 27;11(1):244) and a high AMR prevalence of this serovar (Natl Sci Rev. 2023 Sep 2;10(10):nwad228; mSystems. 2023 Dec 21;8(6):e0088323), making it an excellent example for understanding localized resistance mechanisms. 

      Nevertheless, a search of nearly a decade of literature on PubMed and a summary of the S. Gallinarum genome available on public databases indicate that the dataset used is the most complete. Furthermore, focusing on a specific region within China allowed us to conduct a detailed and thorough analysis. However, we highly agree that expanding the study to include more isolates from other countries would enhance the generalizability of our findings, and we are actively collecting additional S. Gallinarum genome data. In the revised manuscript, we modified this sentence to indicate that this phenomenon is only observed in the current dataset, thereby avoiding an overly absolute statement:

      Lines 131-135: “For the bvSP strains from Asia included in our dataset, we found that all originated from China. To further investigate the distribution of bvSP across different regions in China, we categorized them into three distinct regions: southern, eastern, and northern (Supplementary Table 3)”.

      (12) Many of the conclusions are highly speculative and not supported by the data. 

      Thank you for your comment. We have carefully revised the manuscript to address your concerns. We hope that the changes made in the revised version meet your expectations and provide a clearer and more accurate interpretation of our findings.

      (13) The figures are not always the best presentation of the data: 

      a. Stacked bar plots in Figure 1 are hard to interpret, the total numbers need to be shown.

      Panel C conveys little information. 

      b. Figure 4B: stacked bars are hard to read and do not show totals. 

      c. Figure 5 has no obvious interpretation or significance. 

      Thank you for your comments. We have revised the figures to improve the clarity and presentation of the data.

      In summary, the quality of analysis is poor and likely flawed (although there is not always enough information on methods present to confidently assess this or provide recommendations for how it might be improved). So, the stated conclusions are not supported. 

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. We have carefully revised the manuscript to address your concerns. We hope that the updated figures and tables, and new data in the revised version meet your expectations and provide more appropriate interpretation of our findings.

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      This reviewer enjoyed reading this well-written manuscript. The authors are encouraged to address the following comments and revise the manuscript accordingly. 

      (1) Title: The authors use avian-restrict Salmonella to refer to Salmonella Gallinarum. Please consider using Salmonella Gallinarum in the title. Also, your analysis relates to resistome and mobilome. Would it make sense to add mobilome in the manuscript? 

      Thank you for your guidance. In the revised manuscript, we have changed the title to “Avian-specific Salmonella enterica Serovar Gallinarum transition to endemicity is accompanied by localized resistome and mobilome interaction”. We believe that this revised title more accurately reflects the content of our study.

      (2) Abstract: This study uses 45 isolates from your labs. However, you failed to include these 45 isolates in the Abstract. Also, please clarify the sources of these isolates (from dead chickens, or dead chicken embryos? You wrote in two different ways in this manuscript). Also, I am not entirely convinced how the results from these 45 isolates will support the overall conclusion of this work. 

      Thank you for your thorough review and constructive comments on the manuscript. In the revised version, we have added a description of 45 newly isolated S. Gallinarum strains in the Abstract to provide readers with a clearer understanding of the dataset used in this study.

      Lines 36-41: “Using the most comprehensive whole-genome sequencing dataset of Salmonella enterica serovar Gallinarum (S. Gallinarum) collected from 16 countries, including 45 newly recovered samples from two related local regions, we established the relationship among avian-specific pathogen genetic profiles and localization patterns.”

      Furthermore, the newly isolated S. Gallinarum strains were obtained from dead chicken embryos. We think your second concern may arise from the following description in the manuscript: “All 734 samples of dead chicken embryos were collected from Taishun and Yueqing in Zhejiang Province, China. After the thorough autopsy, the liver, intestines, and spleen were extracted and added separately into 2 mL centrifuge tubes containing 1 mL PBS. The organs were then homogenized by grinding.” In fact, all the collected dead chicken embryos were aged 19 to 20 days. At this developmental stage, collecting the liver, intestines, and spleen for isolation and cultivation of S. Gallinarum is possible. To avoid any confusion, we have included a more detailed description of the dead chicken embryos in the revised manuscript as follows:

      Lines 447-451: “All 734 samples of dead chicken embryos aged 19 to 20 days were collected from Taishun and Yueqing in Zhejiang Province, China. After a thorough autopsy, the liver, intestines, and spleen were extracted and added separately into 2 mL centrifuge tubes containing 1 mL PBS. The organs were then homogenized by grinding.”

      Regarding your concern about the statement, “I am not entirely convinced how the results from these 45 isolates will support the overall conclusion of this work,” we would like to clarify the significance of these new isolates. Our research first identified distinct characteristics in the 45 newly isolated S. Gallinarum strains from Taishun and Yueqing, Zhejiang Province. Specifically, we found that most of the strains from Yueqing belonged to sequence type ST92, whereas the majority from Taishun were ST3717. Additionally, there were significant differences between these geographically close strains in terms of SNP distance and predicted invasion capabilities. These findings suggest that S. Gallinarum may exhibit localized transmission patterns, which forms the basis of the scientific question and hypothesis we originally aimed to address. Furthermore, in our previous work, we collected 325 S. Gallinarum strains. By incorporating the newly isolated 45 strains, we aim to provide a more comprehensive view of the population diversity, transmission pattern and potential risk of S. Gallinarum. We will continue to endeavour to understand the global genomic and population diversity in this field.

      Finally, we revised the sentences that could potentially raise concerns for readers: 

      Lines 175-177: “To investigate the dissemination pattern of bvSP in China, we obtained forty-five newly isolated bvSP from 734 samples (6.1% overall isolation rate) collected from diseased chickens at two farms in Yueqing and Taishun, Zhejiang Province.”  >  “To investigate the dissemination pattern of bvSP, we obtained forty-five newly isolated bvSP from 734 samples (6.1% overall isolation rate) collected from diseased chickens at two farms in Yueqing and Taishun, Zhejiang Province.”

      (3) The manuscript uses nomenclature and classification into different sublineages. Did the authors establish the approaches for defining these sublineages in this group or did you follow the accepted standards? 

      Thank you very much for raising this important issue. The biovar types of Salmonella Gallinarum have historically been well-defined as S. Gallinarum biovar

      Pullorum (bvSP), S. Gallinarum biovar Gallinarum (bvSG), and S. Gallinarum biovar Duisburg (bvSD) (J Vet Med B Infect Dis Vet Public Health. 2005 Jun;52(5):214-8). However, there seems to be no widespread consensus on the population nomenclature for the key biovar bvSP. In a previous study, Zhou et al. classified bvSP into six lineages:

      L1, L2a, L2b, L3a, L3b, and L3c (Natl Sci Rev. 2023 Sep 2;10(10):nwad228). However, our more comprehensive analysis of S. Gallinarum using a larger dataset and hierarchical Bayesian clustering revealed that L3a, previously considered a distinct lineage, is actually a sublineage of L3c. Upon further review of our initial manuscript, we realized that the original submission did not strictly follow the lineage order proposed by Zhou et al. To avoid confusion in the typing system, we have adjusted the lineage nomenclature in the revised manuscript to reflect the corrected order (see Author response table 1).

      (4) This reviewer is convinced with the analysis approaches and conclusion of this work.

      In the meantime, the authors are encouraged to discuss the application of the conclusion of this study: a) can the data be somehow used in the prediction model? b) would the conclusion from S. Gallinarum have generalized application values for other pathogens. 

      Thank you for your constructive comments on the manuscript. 

      a) can the data be somehow used in the prediction model?

      We believe that genomic data can be effectively used for constructing prediction models; however, the success of such models largely depends on the specific traits being predicted. In this study, we utilized a random forest prediction model based on 196 top genes (PLoS Genet. 2018 May 8;14(5)) to predict the invasiveness of 45 newly isolated strains. In relation to the antimicrobial resistance (AMR) issue discussed in this paper, we also conducted relevant analyses. For instance, we explored the use of image-based models to predict whether a genome is resistant to specific antibiotics (Comput Struct Biotechnol J. 2023 Dec 29:23:559-565). We are confident that the incorporation of newly generated data will facilitate the development of future predictive models, and we plan to pursue further research in this area.

      b) would the conclusion from S. Gallinarum have generalized application values for other pathogens.

      This might be explained from two perspectives. First, the key role of the mobilome in facilitating the spread of the resistome, as emphasized in this study, has also been confirmed in research on other pathogens (mBio. 2024 Oct 16;15(10):e0242824). Thus, we believe that the pipeline we developed to assess the horizontal transfer frequency of different resistance genes across regions applies to various pathogens. On the other hand, due to distinct evolutionary histories, different pathogens exhibit varying levels of adaptation to their environments. In this study, we found that S. Gallinarum tends to spread highly localized; however, this conclusion may not necessarily hold for other pathogens.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      The authors would need to: 

      (1) Address my concerns about genomic analyses listed in the public review. 

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. We have carefully reviewed your concerns and made the necessary revisions to address the points raised about genomic analyses in the public review. We sincerely hope that these modifications meet your expectations and provide more robust analysis. We appreciate your thoughtful input and remain open to further suggestions to improve the manuscript.

      (2) Add more detail on the genomic methods and their outputs, as suggested above. 

      We have added further details to clarify the methodologies and outputs as mentioned above. Specifically, we expanded the description of the data processing, and the bioinformatic tools used for analysis. To ensure clarity, we also included an expanded discussion of the key outputs, highlighting their implications. We hope these revisions meet your expectations.

      (3) Critically rewrite their introduction to make it clear what problem they are trying to address. 

      Thank you for your guidance. In the revised manuscript, we have made the necessary modifications to the Introduction section to more clearly articulate the problem we aim to address.

      (4) Critically rewrite their conclusions so they are supported by the data they present, and make it clear when claims are more speculative. 

      Thank you for your guidance. In the revised manuscript, we have made the recommended modifications to the relevant sections of the conclusion as outlined above.

      More minor issues I identified: 

      (1) Typo in the title 'avian-restrict'. 

      Done.

      Line 1: “Avian-specific Salmonella enterica Serovar Gallinarum transition to endemicity is accompanied by localized resistome and mobilome interaction.”

      (2) 'By utilizing the pipeline we developed' -- a pipeline has not been introduced at this point. 

      In the revised manuscript, we have removed this section from the 'Abstract'.

      Lines 46-48: “Notably, the mobilome-resistome combination among distinct lineages exhibits a geographical-specific manner, further supporting a localized endemic mobilome-driven process.”

      (3) 'has more than 90% serovars' -- doesn't make sense. 

      Revised.

      Lines 82-83: “Salmonella, a pathogen with distinct geographical characteristics, has more than 90% of its serovars frequently categorized as geo-serotypes.”

      (4) 'horrific mortality rates that remain a disproportionate burden'. 

      Revised.

      Lines 83-87: “Among the thousands of geo-serotypes, Salmonella enterica Serovar Gallinarum (S. Gallinarum) is an avian-specific pathogen that causes severe mortality, with particularly detrimental effects on the poultry industry in low- and middle-income countries.”

      (5) What is the rate, what is a comparison, how is it disproportionate? 

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. It is challenging to accurately estimate the specific prevalence of S. Gallinarum, particularly due to the lack of comprehensive data in many countries. Numerous cases likely go unreported. However, S. Gallinarum is more commonly detected in low- and middle-income countries. Here, we provide three evidence supporting this observation. First, in our previous research, we conducted a comprehensive meta-analysis of 201 studies, involving over 900 million samples, to evaluate the global impact of S. Gallinarum (Sci Data. 2022 Aug 13;9(1):495). The estimated prevalence in 17 countries showed that Bangladesh had the highest rate (25.75%) of S. Gallinarum infections. However, for biovar Pullorum (bvSP), Argentina (20.69%) and China (18.18%) reported the highest prevalence rates. Second, previous studies have also reported that S. Gallinarum predominantly occurs in low- and middleincome countries (Vet Microbiol. 2019 Jan:228:165-172; BMC Microbiol. 2024 Oct 18;24(1):414). Finally, S. Gallinarum was once a globally prevalent pathogen in the 20th century. Following the implementation of eradication programs in most high-income countries, it was listed by the World Organization for Animal Health and subsequently became an endemic pathogen with sporadic outbreaks. However, similar eradication efforts are challenging to implement in low- and middle-income countries, leading to a disproportionately higher incidence of S. Gallinarum in these regions.

      In the revised manuscript, we have rephrased this sentence to enhance its accuracy:

      Lines 83-87: “Among the thousands of geo-serotypes, Salmonella enterica serovar Gallinarum (S. Gallinarum) is an avian-specific pathogen that causes severe mortality, with particularly detrimental effects on the poultry industry in low- and middle-income countries.”

      (6) 'we collected the most comprehensive set of 580 S. Gallinarum isolates', -> 'we collected the most comprehensive set S. Gallinarum isolates, consisting of 580 genomes'. 

      Revised.

      Lines 97-100: “To fill the gaps in understanding the evolution of S. Gallinarum under regional-associated AMR pressures and its adaptation to endemicity, we collected the most comprehensive set S. Gallinarum isolates, consisting of 580 genomes, spanning the period from 1920 to 2023.” 

      (7) Sequence reads are not available, and use a non-standard database. The eLife policy states: 'Sequence reads and assembly must be included for reference genomes, while novel short sequences, including epitopes, functional domains, genetic markers and haplotypes should be deposited, together with surrounding sequences, into Genbank, DNA Data Bank of Japan (DDBJ), or EMBL Nucleotide Sequence Database (ENA). DNA and RNA sequencing data should be deposited in NCBI Trace Archive or NCBI Sequence Read Archive (SRA).' So the sequences assemblies and reads should ideally be mirrored appropriately. 

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion regarding submitting the genome data for the newly isolated 45 S. Gallinarum strains. The genome data have been deposited in the NCBI Sequence Read Archive (SRA) under two BioProjects. The “SRA Accession number” for each strain have been added to New Supplementary Table 1. We believe this will ensure that the data are more readily accessible to a broader audience of researchers for download and analysis. We have revised the corresponding paragraph in the manuscript as follows:

      Lines 606-608: “For the newly isolated 45 strains of Salmonella Gallinarum, genome data have been deposited in NCBI Sequence Read Archive (SRA) database. The “SRA Accession” for each strain are listed in Supplementary Table 1.”

      (8) You should state at the start of the results which data is public, and how much is newly sequenced. 

      Revised.

      Lines 109-112: “To understand the global geographic distribution and genetic relationships of S. Gallinarum, we assembled the most comprehensive S. Gallinarum WGS dataset (n=580), comprising 535 publicly available genomes and 45 newly sequenced genomes.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:  

      This paper investigates the relationship between ocular drift - eye movements long thought to be random - and visual acuity. This is a fundamental issue for how vision works. The work uses adaptive optics retinal imaging to monitor eye movements and where a target object is in the cone photoreceptor array. The surprising result is that ocular drift is systematic - causing the object to move to the center of the cone mosaic over the course of each perceptual trial. The tools used to reach this conclusion are state-of-the-art and the evidence presented is convincing.

      Strengths  

      P1.1. The central question of the paper is interesting, as far as I know, it has not been answered in past work, and the approaches employed in this work are appropriate and provide clear answers.

      P1.2. The central finding - that ocular drift is not a completely random process - is important and has a broad impact on how we think about the relationship between eye movements and visual perception.

      P1.3. The presentation is quite nice: the figures clearly illustrate key points and have a nice mix of primary and analyzed data, and the writing (with one important exception) is generally clear.

      Thank you for your positive feedback.

      Weaknesses

      P1.4. The handling of the Nyquist limit is confusing throughout the paper and could be improved. It is not clear (at least to me) how the Nyquist limit applies to the specific task considered. I think of the Nyquist limit as saying that spatial frequencies above a certain cutoff set by the cone spacing are being aliased and cannot be disambiguated from the structure at a lower spatial frequency. In other words, there is a limit to the spatial frequency content that can be uniquely represented by discrete cone sampling locations. Acuity beyond that limit is certainly possible with a stationary image - e.g. a line will set up a distribution of responses in the cones that it covers, and without noise, an arbitrarily small displacement of the line would change the distribution of cone responses in a way that could be resolved. This is an important point because it relates to whether some kind of active sampling or movement of the detectors is needed to explain the spatial resolution results in the paper. This issue comes up in the introduction, results, and discussion. It arises in particular in the two Discussion paragraphs starting on line 343.

      We thank you for pointing out a possible confusion for readers. Overall, we contrast our results to the static Nyquist limit because it is generally regarded as the upper limit of resolution acuity. We updated our text in a few places, especially the Discussion, and added a reference to make our use of the Nyquist limit clearer.

      We agree with the reviewer of how the Nyquist limit is interpreted within the context of visual structure. If visual structure is under-sampled, it is not lost, but creates new, interfered visual structure at lower spatial frequency. For regular patterns like gratings, interference patterns may emerge akin to Moire patterns, which have been shown to occur in the human eye, and which form is based on the arrangement and regularity of the photoreceptor mosaic (Williams, 1985). We note however that the successful resolution of the lower frequency pattern does not necessarily carry the same structural information, specifically, orientation, and the aliased structure might indeed mask the original stimulus. Please compare Figure 1f where we show individual static snapshots of such aliased patterns, especially visible when the optotypes are small (towards the lower right of the figure). We note that theoretical work predicts that with prior knowledge about the stimulus, even such static images might be possible to de-alias (Ruderman & Bialek, 1992). We added this to our manuscript.   

      We think the reviewer’s following point about the resolution of a line position, is only partially connected to the first, however. In our manuscript we note in the Introduction that resolution of the relative position of visual objects is a so called hyperacuity phenomenon. The fact that it occurs in humans and other animals demonstrates that visual brains have come up with neuronal mechanisms to determine relative stimulus position with sub-Nyquist resolution. The exact mechanism is however not fully clear. One solution is that relative cone signal intensities could be harnessed, similar as is employed technically, e.g. in a quadrant-cell detector. Its positional precision is much higher than the individual cell’s size (or Nyquist limit), predominantly determined by the detector’s sensitivity and to a lesser degree its size. On the other hand, such detector, being hyperacute with object location, would not have the same resolution as, for instance, letter-E orientation discrimination. 

      Note that in all the above occasions, a static image-sensor-relationship is assumed. In our paper, we were aiming to convey, like others did before, that a moving stimulus may give rise to sub-Nyquist structural resolution, beyond what is already known for positional acuity and hence, classical hyperacuity. 

      Based on the data shown in this manuscript and other experimental data currently collected in the lab, it seems to us that eye movements are indeed the crucial point in achieving sub-Nyquist resolution. For example, ultra-short presentation durations, allowing virtually no retinal slip, push thresholds close to the Nyquist limit and above. Furthermore, with AOSLO stimulation, it is possible to stabilize a stimulus on the retina, which would be a useful tool studying this hypothesis. Our current level of stabilization is however not accurate enough to completely mitigate retinal image motion in the foveola, where cells are smallest, and transients could occur. From what we observe and other studies that looked at resolution thresholds at more peripheral retinal locations, we would predict that foveolar resolution of a perfectly stabilized stimulus would be indeed limited by the Nyquist limit of the receptor mosaic.

      P1.5. One question that came up as I read the paper was whether the eye movement parameters depend on the size of the E. In other words, to what extent is ocular drift tuned to specific behavioral tasks?

      This is an interesting question. Yet, the experimental data collected for the current manuscript does not contain enough dispersion in target size to give a definitive answer, unfortunately. A larger range of stimulus sizes and especially a similar number of trials per size would be required. Nonetheless, when individual trials were re-grouped to percentiles of all stimulus sizes (scaled for each eye individually), we found that drift length and directionality was not significantly different between any percentile group of stimulus sizes (Wilcoxon sign rank test, p > 0.12, see also Figure R1). Our experimental trials started with a stimulus demanding visual acuity of 20/16 (logMAR = -0.1), therefore all presented stimulus sizes were rather close to threshold. The high visual demand in this AO resolution task might bring the oculomotor system to a limit, where ocular drift length can’t be decreased further. However, with the limitation due to the small range of stimulus sizes, further investigations would be needed. Given this and that this topic is also ongoing research in our lab where also more complex dynamics of FEM patterns are considered, we refrain from showing this analysis in the current manuscript.  

      Author response image 1.

      Drift length does not depend on stimulus sizes close to threshold. All experimental trials were sorted by stimulus size and then grouped into percentiles for each participant (left). Additionally, 10 % of trials with stimulus sizes just above or below threshold are shown for comparison (right). For each group, median drift lengths (z-scored) are shown as box and whiskers plot. Drift length was not significantly different across groups.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this work, Witten et al. assess visual acuity, cone density, and fixational behavior in the central foveal region in a large number of subjects.

      This work elegantly presents a number of important findings, and I can see this becoming a landmark work in the field. First, it shows that acuity is determined by the cone mosaic, hence, subjects characterized by higher cone densities show higher acuity in diffraction-limited settings. Second, it shows that humans can achieve higher visual resolution than what is dictated by cone sampling, suggesting that this is likely the result of fixational drift, which constantly moves the stimuli over the cone mosaic. Third, the study reports a correlation between the amplitude of fixational motion and acuity, namely, subjects with smaller drifts have higher acuities and higher cone density. Fourth, it is shown that humans tend to move the fixated object toward the region of higher cone density in the retina, lending further support to the idea that drift is not a random process, but is likely controlled. This is a beautiful and unique work that furthers our understanding of the visuomotor system and the interplay of anatomy, oculomotor behavior, and visual acuity.

      Strengths:

      P2.1. The work is rigorously conducted, it uses state-of-the-art technology to record fixational eye movements while imaging the central fovea at high resolution and examines exactly where the viewed stimulus falls on individuals' foveal cone mosaic with respect to different anatomical landmarks in this region. The figures are clear and nicely packaged. It is important to emphasize that this study is a real tour-de-force in which the authors collected a massive amount of data on 20 subjects. This is particularly remarkable considering how challenging it is to run psychophysics experiments using this sophisticated technology. Most of the studies using psychophysics with AO are, indeed, limited to a few subjects. Therefore, this work shows a unique set of data, filling a gap in the literature.

      Thank you, we are very grateful for your positive feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      P2.2. No major weakness was noted, but data analysis could be further improved by examining drift instantaneous direction rather than start-point-end-point direction, and by adding a statistical quantification of the difference in direction tuning between the three anatomical landmarks considered.

      Thank you for these two suggestions. We now show the development of directionality with time (after the first frame, 33 ms as well as 165 ms, 330 ms and 462 ms), and performed a Rayleigh test for non-uniformity of circular data. Please also see our response to comment R2.4.

      Briefly, directional tuning was already visible at 33 ms after stimulus onset and continuously increases with longer analysis duration. Directionality is thus not pronounced at shorter analysis windows. These results have been added to the text and figures (Figure 4 - figure supplement 1).

      The statistical tests showed that circular sample directionality was not uniformly distributed for all three retinal locations. The circular average was between -10 and 10 ° in all cases and the variance was decreasing with increasing time (from 48.5 ° to 34.3 ° for CDC, 49.6 ° to 38.6 ° for PRL and 53.9 ° to 43.4 for PCD location, between frame 2 and 15). As we have discussed in the paper, we would expect all three locations to come out as significant, given their vicinity to the CDC (which is systematic in the case of PRL, and random in the case of PCD, see also comment R2.2).        

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Witten et al., titled "Sub-cone visual resolution by active, adaptive sampling in the human foveola," aims to investigate the link between acuity thresholds (and hyperacuity) and retinal sampling. Specifically, using in vivo foveal cone-resolved imaging and simultaneous microscopic photostimulation, the researchers examined visual acuity thresholds in 16 volunteers and correlated them with each individual's retinal sampling capacity and the characteristics of ocular drift.

      First, the authors found that although visual acuity was highly correlated with the individual spatial arrangement of cones, for all participants, visual resolution exceeded the Nyquist sampling limit - a well-known phenomenon in the literature called hyperacuity.

      Thus, the researchers hypothesized that this increase in acuity, which could not be explained in terms of spatial encoding mechanisms, might result from exploiting the spatiotemporal characteristics of visual input, which is continuously modulated over time by eye movements even during so-called fixations (e.g., ocular drift).

      Authors reported a correlation between subjects, between acuity threshold and drift amplitude, suggesting that the visual system benefits from transforming spatial input into a spatiotemporal flow. Finally, they showed that drift, contrary to the traditional view of it as random involuntary movement, appears to exhibit directionality: drift tends to move stimuli to higher cone density areas, therefore enhancing visual resolution.

      Strengths:

      P3.1. The work is of broad interest, the methods are clear, and the results are solid.

      Thank you.

      Weaknesses:

      P3.2. Literature (1/2): The authors do not appear to be aware of an important paper published in 2023 by Lin et al. (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2023.03.026), which nicely demonstrates that (i) ocular drifts are under cognitive influence, and (ii) specific task knowledge influences the dominant orientation of these ocular drifts even in the absence of visual information. The results of this article are particularly relevant and should be discussed in light of the findings of the current experiment.

      Thank you for pointing to this important work which we were aware of. It simply slipped through during writing. It is now discussed in lines 390-393. 

      P3.3. Literature (2/2): The hypothesis that hyperacuity is attributable to ocular movements has been proposed by other authors and should be cited and discussed (e.g., https://doi.org/10.3389/fncom.2012.00089, https://doi.org/10.10

      Thank you for pointing us towards these works which we have now added to the Discussion section. We would like to stress however, that we see a distinction between classical hyperacuity phenomena (Vernier, stereo, centering, etc.) as a form of positional acuity, and orientation discrimination.  

      P3.4. Drift Dynamic Characterization: The drift is primarily characterized as the "concatenated vector sum of all frame-wise motion vectors within the 500 ms stimulus duration.". To better compare with other studies investigating the link between drift dynamics and visual acuity (e.g., Clark et al., 2022), it would be interesting to analyze the drift-diffusion constant, which might be the parameter most capable of describing the dynamic characteristics of drift.

      During our analysis, we have computed the diffusion coefficient (D) and it showed qualitatively similar results to the drift length (see figures below). We decided to not show these results, because we are convinced that D is indeed not the most capable parameter to describe the typical drift characteristic seen here. The diffusion coefficient is computed as the slope of the mean square displacement (MSD). In our view, there are two main issues with applying this metric to our data, one conceptual, one factual:

      (1) Computation of a diffusion coefficient is based upon the assumption that the underlying movement is similar to a random walk process. From a historical perspective, where drift has been regarded as more random, this makes sense. We also agree that D can serve as a valuable metric, depending on the individual research question. In our data, however, we clearly show that drift is not random, and a metric quantifying randomness is thus ill-defined. 

      (2) We often observed out- and in-type motion traces, i.e. where the eye somewhat backtracks from where it started. Traces in this case are equally long (and fast) as other motion will be with a singular direction, but D would in this case be much smaller, as the MSD first increases and then decreases. In reality, the same number of cones would have been traversed as with the larger D of straight outward movement, albeit not unique cones. For our current analyses, the drift length captures this relationship better.

      Author response image 2.

      Diffusion coefficient (D) and the relation to visual acuity (see Figure 3 e-g for comparison to drift length). a, D was strongly correlated between fellow eyes. b, Cone density and D were not significantly correlated. c, The median D had a moderate correlation with visual acuity thresholds in dominant as well as non-dominant eyes. Dominant eyes are indicated by filled, nondominant eyes by open markers.

      We would like to put forward that, in general, better metrics are needed, especially in respect to the visual signals arising from the moving eye. We are actively looking into this in follow-up work, and we hope that the current manuscript might spark also others to come up with new ways of characterizing the fine movements of the eye during fixation.

      P3.5. Possible inconsistencies: Binocular differences are not expected based on the hypothesis; the authors may speculate a bit more about this. Additionally, the fact that hyperacuity does not occur with longer infrared wavelengths but the drift dynamics do not vary between the two conditions is interesting and should be discussed more thoroughly.

      Binocularity: the differences in performance between fellow eyes is rather subtle, and we do not have a firm grip on differences other than the cone mosaic and fixational motor behavior between the two eyes. We would rather not speculate beyond what we already do, namely that some factor related to the development of ocular dominance is at play. What we do show with our data is that cone density and drift patterns seem to have no part in it.  

      Effect of wavelength: even with the longer 840 nm wavelength, most eyes resolve below the Nyquist limit, with a general increase in thresholds (getting worse) compared to 788 nm. As we wrote in the manuscript, we assume that the increased image blur and reduced cone contrast introduced by the longer wavelength are key to why there is an overall reduction in acuity. No changes were made to the manuscript. As a more general remark, we would not consider the sub-Nyquist performances seen in our data to be a hyperacuity, although technically it is. The reason is that hyperacuity is usually associated with stimuli that require resolving positional shifts, and not orientation. There is a log unit of difference between thresholds in these tasks.  

      P3.6. As a Suggestion: can the authors predict the accuracy of individual participants in single trials just by looking at the drift dynamics?

      That’s a very interesting point that we indeed currently look at in another project. As a comment, we can add that by purely looking at the drift dynamics in the current data, we could not predict the accuracy (percent correct) of the participant. When comparing drift length or diffusion coefficients between trials with correct or false response, we do not observe a significant difference. Also, when adding an anatomical correlate and compare between trials where sampling density increases or decreases, there is no significant trend. We think that it is a more complex interplay between all the influencing factors that can perhaps be met by a model considering all drift dynamics, photoreceptor geometry and stimulus characteristics.   

      No changes were made to the manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As you will see, the reviewers were quite enthusiastic about your work, but have a few issues for your consideration. We hope that this is helpful. We'll consider any revisions in composing a final eLife assessment.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      R1.1:  Discussion of myopia. Myopia takes a fair bit of space in the Discussion, but the paper does not include any subjects that are sufficiently myopic to test the predictions. I would suggest reducing the amount of space devoted to this issue, and instead making the prediction that myopia may help with resolution quickly. The introduction (lines 54-56) left me expecting a test of this hypothesis, and I think similarly that issue could be left out of the introduction.

      We have removed this part from the Introduction and shortened the Discussion.  

      R1.2: Line 118: define CDC here.

      Thank you for pointing this out, it is now defined at this location.  

      R1.3: Line 159-162: suggest breaking this sentence into two. This sentence also serves as a transition to the next section, but the wording suggests it is a result that is shown in the prior section. Suggest rewording to make the transition part clear. Maybe something like "Hence the spatial arrangement of cones only partially ... . Next we show that ocular motion and the associated ... are another important factor."

      Text was changed as suggested.  

      R1.4.: Figure 3: The retina images are a bit hard to see - suggest making them larger to take an entire row. As a reader, I also was wondering about the temporal progression of the drift trajectories and the relation to the CDC. Since you get to that in Figure 4, you could clarify in the text that you are starting by analyzing distance traveled and will return to the issue of directed trajectories.

      Visibility was probably an issue during the initial submission and review process where images were produced at lower resolution. The original figures are of sufficient resolution to fully appreciate the underlying cone mosaic and will later be able to zoom in the online publication.  

      We added a mention of the order of analysis in the Results section (LL 163-165)

      R1.5: Line 176: define "sum of piecewise drift amplitude" (e.g. refer to Figure where it is defined).

      We refer to this metric now as the drift length (as pointed out rightfully so by reviewer #2), and added its definition at this location.   

      R1.6: Lines 205-208: suggest clarifying this sentence is a transition to the next section. As for the earlier sentence mentioned above, this sounds like a result rather than a transition to an issue you will consider next.

      This sentence was changed to make the transition clearer. 

      R1.7: Line 225: suggest starting a new paragraph here.

      Done as suggested

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I don't have any major concerns, mostly suggestions and minor comments.

      R2.1: (1) The authors use piecewise amplitude as a measure of the amount of retinal motion introduced by ocular drift. However, to me, this sounds like what is normally referred to as the path length of a trace rather than its amplitude. I would suggest using the term length rather than amplitude, as amplitude is normally considered the distance between the starting and the ending point of a trace.

      This was changed as suggested throughout the manuscript. 

      R2.2: (2) It would be useful to elaborate more on the difference between CDC and PCD, I know the authors do this in other publications, but to the naïve reader, it comes a bit as a surprise that drift directionality is toward the CDC but less so toward the PCD. Is the difference between these metrics simply related to the fact that defining the PCD location is more susceptible to errors, especially if image quality is not optimal? If indeed the PCD is the point of peak cone density, assuming no errors or variability in the estimation of this point, shouldn't we expect drift moving stimuli toward this point, as the CDC will be characterized by a slightly lower density? I.e., is the absence of a PCD directionality trend as strong as the trend seen for the CDC simply the result of variability and error in the estimate of the PCD or it is primarily due to the distribution of cone density not being symmetrical around the PCD?

      Thank you for this comment. We already refer in the Methods section to the respective papers where this difference is analyzed in more detail, and shortly discuss it here.

      To briefly answer the reviewer’s final question: PCD location is too variable, and ought to be avoided as a retinal landmark. While we believe there is value in reporting the PCD as a metric of maximum density, it has been shown recently (Reiniger et al., 2021; Warr et al., 2024; Wynne et al., 2022) and is visible in our own (partly unpublished) data, that its location will change with changing one or more of these factors: cone density metric, window size or cone quantity selected, cone annotation quality, image quality (e.g. across days), individual grader, annotation software, and likely more. Each of these factors alone can change the PCD location quite drastically, all while of course, the retina does not change. The CDC on the other hand, given its low-pass filtering nature, is immune to the aforementioned changes within a much wider range and will thus reflect the anatomical and, shown here, functional center of vision, better. However, there will always be individual eyes where PCD location and the CDC are close, and thus researchers might be inclined to also use the PCD as a landmark. We strongly advise against this. In a way, the PCD is a non-sense location while its dimension, density, can be a valuable metric, as density does not vary that much (see e.g. data on CDC density and PCD density reported in this manuscript).  

      Below we append a direct comparison of PCD vs CDC location stability when only one of the mentioned factors are changed. Sixteen retinas imaged on two different days were annotated and analyzed by the same grader with the same approach, and the difference in both locations are shown.  

      Author response image 3.

      Reproducibility of CDC and PCD location in comparison. Two retinal mosaics which were recorded at two different timepoints, maximum 1 year apart from each other, were compared for 16 eyes. The retinal mosaics were carefully aligned. The retinal locations for CDC and PCD that were computed for the first timepoint were used as the spatial anchor (coordinate center), the locations plotted here as red circles (CDC) and gray diamonds (PCD) represent the deviations that were measured at the second timepoint for both metrics.  

      R2.3.: I don't see a statistical comparison between the drift angle tuning for CDC, PRL, and PCD. The distributions in Figure 4F look very similar and all with a relatively wide std. It would be useful to mark the mean of the distributions and report statistical tests. What are the data shown in this figure, single subjects, all subjects pooled together, average across subjects? Please specify in the caption.

      We added a Rayleigh test to test each distribution for nun-uniformity and Kolmogorov-Smirnov tests to compare the distributions towards the different landmarks.  We added the missing specifications to the figure caption of Figure 4 – figure supplement 1. 

      R2.4: I would suggest also calculating drift direction based on the average instantaneous drift velocity, similarly to what is done with amplitude. From Figure 3B it is clear that some drifts are more curved than others. For curved drifts with small amplitudes the start-point- end-point (SE) direction is not very meaningful and it is not a good representation of the overall directionality of the segment. Some drifts also seem to be monotonic and then change direction (eg. the last three examples from participant 10). In this case, the SE direction is likely quite different from the average instantaneous direction. I suspect that if direction is calculated this way it may show the trend of drifting toward the CDC more clearly.

      In response to this and a comment of reviewer #1, we add a calculation of initial  drift direction (and for increasing duration) and show it in Figure 4 – figure supplement 1. By doing so, we hope to capture initial directionality, irrespective of whether later parts in the path change direction. We find that directionality increases with increasing presentation duration. 

      R2.5: I find the discussion point on myopia a bit confusing. Considering that this is a rather tangential point and there are only two myopic participants, I would suggest either removing it from the discussion or explaining it more clearly.

      We changed this section, also in response to comment R1.1.

      R2.6: I would suggest adding to the discussion more elaboration on how these results may relate to acuity in normal conditions (in the presence of optical aberrations). For example, will this relationship between sampling cone density and visual acuity also hold natural viewing conditions?

      We added only a half sentence to the first paragraph of the discussion. We are hesitant to extend this because there is very likely a non-straightforward relationship between acuity in normal and fully corrected conditions. We would predict that, if each eye were given the same type and magnitude of aberrations (similar to what we achieved by removing them), cone density will be the most prominent factor of acuity differences. Given that individual aberrations can vary substantially between eyes, this effect will be diluted, up to the point where aberrations will be the most important factor to acuity. As an example, under natural viewing conditions, pupil size will dominantly modulate the magnitude of aberrations.

      R2.7: Line 398 - the point on the superdiffusive nature of drift comes out of the blue and it is unclear. What is it meant by "superdiffusive"?

      We simply wanted to express that some drift properties seem to be adaptable while others aren’t. The text was changed at this location to remove this seemingly unmotivated term. 

      R2.8: Although it is true that drift has been assumed to be a random motion, there has been mounting evidence, especially in recent years, showing a degree of control and knowledge about ocular drift (eg. Poletti et al, 2015, JN; Lin et al, 2023, Current Biology).

      We agree, of course. We mention this fact several times in the paper and adjusted some sentences to prevent misunderstandings. The mentioned papers are now cited in the Discussion. 

      R2.9: Reference 23 is out of context and should be removed as it deals with the control of fine spatial attention in the foveola rather than microsaccades or drift.

      We removed this reference. 

      R2.10: Minor point: Figures appear to be low resolution in the pdf.

      This seemed to have been an issue with the submission process. All figures will be available in high resolution in the final online version. 

      R2.11: Figure S3, it would be useful to mark the CDC at the center with a different color maybe shaded so it can be visible also on the plot on the left.

      We changed the color and added a small amount of transparency to the PRL markers to make the CDC marker more visible. 

      R2.12: Figure S2, it would be useful to show the same graphs with respect to the PCD and PRL and maybe highlight the subjects who showed the largest (or smallest) distance between PRL and CDC).

      Please find new Figure 4 supplement 1, which contains this information in the group histograms. Also, Figure 4 supplement 2 is now ordered by the distance PRL-CDC (while the participant naming is kept as maximum acuity exhibited. In this way, it should be possible to infer the information of whether PRL-CDC distance plays a role. For us it does not seem to be crucial. Rather, stimulus onset and drift length were related, which is captured in Figure 4g. 

      R2.13: There is a typo in Line 410.

      We could not find a typo in this line, nor in the ones above and below. “Interindividual” was written on purpose, maybe “intraindividual” was expected? No changes were made to the text. 

      References

      Reiniger, J. L., Domdei, N., Holz, F. G., & Harmening, W. M. (2021). Human gaze is systematically offset from the center of cone topography. Current Biology, 31(18), 4188–4193. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.07.005

      Ruderman, D. L., & Bialek, W. (1992). Seeing Beyond the Nyquist Limit. Neural Computation, 4(5), 682–690. https://doi.org/10.1162/neco.1992.4.5.682

      Warr, E., Grieshop, J., Cooper, R. F., & Carroll, J. (2024). The effect of sampling window size on topographical maps of foveal cone density. Frontiers in Ophthalmology, 4, 1348950. https://doi.org/10.3389/fopht.2024.1348950

      Williams, D. R. (1985). Aliasing in human foveal vision. Vision Research, 25(2), 195–205. https://doi.org/10.1016/0042-6989(85)90113-0

      Wynne, N., Cava, J. A., Gaffney, M., Heitkotter, H., Scheidt, A., Reiniger, J. L., Grieshop, J., Yang, K., Harmening, W. M., Cooper, R. F., & Carroll, J. (2022). Intergrader agreement of foveal cone topography measured using adaptive optics scanning light ophthalmoscopy. Biomedical Optics Express, 13(8), 4445–4454. https://doi.org/10.1364/boe.460821

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The manuscript by Mäkelä et al. presents compelling experimental evidence that the amount of chromosomal DNA can become limiting for the total rate of mRNA transcription and consequently protein production in the model bacterium Escherichia coli. Specifically, the authors demonstrate that upon inhibition of DNA replication the single-cell growth rate continuously decreases, in direct proportion to the concentration of active ribosomes, as measured indirectly by single-particle tracking. The decrease of ribosomal activity with filamentation, in turn, is likely caused by a decrease of the concentration of mRNAs, as suggested by an observed plateau of the total number of active RNA polymerases. These observations are compatible with the hypothesis that DNA limits the total rate of transcription and thus translation. The authors also demonstrate that the decrease of RNAp activity is independent of two candidate stress response pathways, the SOS stress response and the stringent response, as well as an anti-sigma factor previously implicated in variations of RNAp activity upon variations of nutrient sources.

      Remarkably, the reduction of growth rate is observed soon after the inhibition of DNA replication, suggesting that the amount of DNA in wild-type cells is tuned to provide just as much substrate for RNA polymerase as needed to saturate most ribosomes with mRNAs. While previous studies of bacterial growth have most often focused on ribosomes and metabolic proteins, this study provides important evidence that chromosomal DNA has a previously underestimated important and potentially rate-limiting role for growth. 

      Thank you for the excellent summary of our work.

      Strengths: 

      This article links the growth of single cells to the amount of DNA, the number of active ribosomes and to the number of RNA polymerases, combining quantitative experiments with theory. The correlations observed during depletion of DNA, notably in M9gluCAA medium, are compelling and point towards a limiting role of DNA for transcription and subsequently for protein production soon after reduction of the amount of DNA in the cell. The article also contains a theoretical model of transcription-translation that contains a Michaelis-Menten type dependency of transcription on DNA availability and is fit to the data. While the model fits well with the continuous reduction of relative growth rate in rich medium (M9gluCAA), the behavior in minimal media without casamino acids is a bit less clear (see comments below). 

      At a technical level, single-cell growth experiments and single-particle tracking experiments are well described, suggesting that different diffusive states of molecules represent different states of RNAp/ribosome activities, which reflect the reduction of growth. However, I still have a few points about the interpretation of the data and the measured fractions of active ribosomes (see below). 

      Apart from correlations in DNA-deplete cells, the article also investigates the role of candidate stress response pathways for reduced transcription, demonstrating that neither the SOS nor the stringent response are responsible for the reduced rate of growth. Equally, the anti-sigma factor Rsd recently described for its role in controlling RNA polymerase activity in nutrient-poor growth media, seems also not involved according to mass-spec data. While other (unknown) pathways might still be involved in reducing the number of active RNA polymerases, the proposed hypothesis of the DNA substrate itself being limiting for the total rate of transcription is appealing. 

      Finally, the authors confirm the reduction of growth in the distant Caulobacter crescentus, which lacks overlapping rounds of replication and could thus have shown a different dependency on DNA concentration. 

      Weaknesses: 

      There are a range of points that should be clarified or addressed, either by additional experiments/analyses or by explanations or clear disclaimers. 

      First, the continuous reduction of growth rate upon arrest of DNA replication initiation observed in rich growth medium (M9gluCAA) is not equally observed in poor media. Instead, the relative growth rate is immediately/quickly reduced by about 10-20% and then maintained for long times, as if the arrest of replication initiation had an immediate effect but would then not lead to saturation of the DNA substrate. In particular, the long plateau of a constant relative growth rate in M9ala is difficult to reconcile with the model fit in Fig 4S2. Is it possible that DNA is not limiting in poor media (at least not for the cell sizes studied here) while replication arrest still elicits a reduction of growth rate in a different way? Might this have something to do with the naturally much higher oscillations of DNA concentration in minimal medium?

      The reviewer is correct that there are interesting differences between nutrient-rich and -poor conditions. They were originally noted in the discussion, but we understand how our original presentation made it confusing. We reorganized the text and figures to better explain our results and interpretations. In the revised manuscript, the data related to the poor media are now presented separately (new Figure 6) from the data related to the rich medium (Figures 1-3).  The total RNAP activity (abundance x active fraction) is significantly reduced in poor media (Figure 6A-B) similarly to rich medium (Figure 3H). Thus, DNA is limiting for transcription across conditions. However, the total ribosome activity in poor media (Figure 6C-D) and thus the growth rate (Figure 6EF) was less affected in comparison to rich media (Figure 2H and 1C). Our interpretation of these results is that while DNA is limiting for transcription in all tested nutrient conditions (as shown by the total active RNAP data), post-transcriptional buffering activities compensate for the reduction in transcription in poor media, thereby maintaining a better scaling of growth rates under DNA limitation. 

      The authors argue that DNA becomes limiting in the range of physiological cell sizes, in particular for M9glCAA (Fig. 1BC). It would be helpful to know by how much (fold-change) the DNA concentration is reduced below wild-type (or multi-N) levels at t=0 in Fig 1B and how DNA concentration decays with time or cell area, to get a sense by how many-fold DNA is essentially 'overexpressed/overprovided' in wild-type cells. 

      We now provide crude estimates in the Discussion section. The revised text reads: “Crude estimations suggest that ≤ 40% DNA dilution is sufficient to negatively affect transcription (total RNAP activity) in M9glyCAAT, whereas the same effect was observed after less than 10% dilution in nutrient-poor media (M9gly or M9ala) (see Materials and Methods).” We obtained these numbers based on calculations and estimates described in the Materials and Methods section and Appendix 1 (Appendix 1 – Table 1).

      Fig. 2: The distribution of diffusion coefficients of RpsB is fit to Gaussians on the log scale. Is this based on a model or on previous work or simply an empirical fit to the data? An exact analytical model for the distribution of diffusion constants can be found in the tool anaDDA by Vink, ..., Hohlbein Biophys J 2020. Alternatively, distributions of displacements are expressed analytically in other tools (e.g., in SpotOn). 

      We use an empirical fit of Gaussian mixture model (GMM) of three states to the data and extract the fractions of molecules in each state. This avoids making too many assumptions on the underlying processes, e.g. a Markovian system with Brownian diffusion. The model in anaDDA (Vink et al.) is currently limited to two-transitioning states with a maximal step number of 8 steps per track for a computationally efficient solution (longer tracks are truncated). Using a short subset of the trajectories is less accurate than using the entire trajectory and because of this, we consider full tracks with at least 9 displacements. Meanwhile, Spot-On supports a three-state model but it is still based on a semi-analytical model with a pre-calculated library of parameters created by fitting of simulated data. Neither of these models considers the effect of cell confinement, which plays a major role in single-molecule diffusion in small-sized cells such as bacteria. For these reasons, we opted to use an empirical fit to the data. We note that the fractions of active ribosomes in WT cells, which we extracted from these diffusion measurements, are consistent with the range of estimates obtained by others using similar or different approaches (Forchhammer and Lindhal 1971; Mohapatra and Weisshaar, 2018; Sanamrad et al., 2014). 

      The estimated fraction of active ribosomes in wild-type cells shows a very strong reduction with decreasing growth rate (down from 75% to 30%), twice as strong as measured in bulk experiments (Dai et al Nat Microbiology 2016; decrease from 90% to 60% for the same growth rate range) and probably incompatible with measurements of growth rate, ribosome concentrations, and almost constant translation elongation rate in this regime of growth rates. Might the different diffusive fractions of RpsB not represent active/inactive ribosomes? See also the problem of quantification above. The authors should explain and compare their results to previous work. 

      We agree that our measured range is somewhat larger than the estimated range from Dai et al, 2016. However, they use different media, strains, and growth conditions. We also note that Dai et al did not make actual measurements of the active ribosome fraction. Instead, they calculate the “active ribosome equivalent” based on a model that includes growth rate, protein synthesis rate, RNA/protein abundance, and the total number of amino acids in all proteins in the cell. Importantly, our measurements show the same overall trend (a ~30% decrease) as Dai et al, 2016. Furthermore, our results are within the range of previous experimental estimates from ribosome profiling (Forchhammer and Lindhal 1971) or single-ribosome tracking (Mohapatra and Weisshaar, 2018; Sanamrad et al., 2014). We clarified this point in the revised manuscript. 

      To measure the reduction of mRNA transcripts in the cell, the authors rely on the fluorescent dye SYTO RNAselect. They argue that 70% of the dye signal represents mRNA. The argument is based on the previously observed reduction of the total signal by 70% upon treatment with rifampicin, an RNA polymerase inhibitor (Bakshi et al 2014). The idea here is presumably that mRNA should undergo rapid degradation upon rif treatment while rRNA or tRNA are stable. However, work from Hamouche et al. RNA (2021) 27:946 demonstrates that rifampicin treatment also leads to a rapid degradation of rRNA. Furthermore, the timescale of fluorescent-signal decay in the paper by Bakshi et al. (half life about 10min) is not compatible with the previously reported rapid decay of mRNA (24min) but rather compatible with the slower, still somewhat rapid, decay of rRNA reported by Hamouche et al.. A bulk method to measure total mRNA as in the cited Balakrishnan et al. (Science 2022) would thus be a preferred method to quantify mRNA. Alternatively, the authors could also test whether the mass contribution of total RNA remains constant, which would suggest that rRNA decay does not contribute to signal loss. However, since rRNA dominates total RNA, this measurement requires high accuracy. The authors might thus tone down their conclusions on mRNA concentration changes while still highlighting the compelling data on RNAp diffusion. 

      Thank you for bringing the Hamouche et al 2021 paper to our attention. To address this potential issue, we have performed fluorescence in situ hybridization (FISH) microscopy using a 16S rRNA probe (EUB338) to quantify rRNA concentration in 1N cells. We found that the rRNA signal only slightly decreases with cell size (i.e., genome dilution) compared to the RNASelect signal (e.g., a ~5% decrease for rRNA signal vs. 50% for RNASelect for a cell size range of 4 to 10 µm2). We have revised the text and added a figure to include the new rRNA FISH data (Figure 4). In addition, as a control, we validated our rRNA FISH method by comparing the intracellular concentration of 16S rRNA in poor vs. rich media (new Figure 4 – Figure supplement 3).

      The proteomics experiments are a great addition to the single-cell studies, and the correlations between distance from ori and protein abundance is compelling. However, I was missing a different test, the authors might have already done but not put in the manuscript: If DNA is indeed limiting the initiation of transcription, genes that are already highly transcribed in non-perturbed conditions might saturate fastest upon replication inhibition, while genes rarely transcribed should have no problem to accommodate additional RNA polymerases. One might thus want to test, whether the (unperturbed) transcription initiation rate is a predictor of changes in protein composition. This is just a suggestion the authors may also ignore, but since it is an easy analysis, I chose to mention it here. 

      We did not find any correlation when we examined the potential relation between RNA slopes and mRNA abundance (from our first CRISPRi oriC time point) or the transcription initiation rate (from Balakrishnan et al., 2022, PMID: 36480614) across genes. These new plots are presented in Figure 7 – Figure supplement 2B. In contrast, we found a small but significant correlation between RNA slopes and mRNA decay rates (from Balakrishnan et al., 2022, PMID: 36480614), specifically for genes with short mRNA lifetimes (new Figure 7F). This effect is consistent with our model prediction (Figure 5 – Figure supplement 2). 

      Related to the proteomics, in l. 380 the authors write that the reduced expression close to the ori might reflect a gene-dosage compensatory mechanism. I don't understand this argument. Can the authors add a sentence to explain their hypothesis? 

      We apologize for the confusion. While performing additional analyses for the revisions, we realized that while the proteins encoded by genes close to oriC tend to display subscaling behavior, this is not true at the mRNA level (new Figure 7 – Figure supplement 3B). In light of this result, we no longer have a hypothesis for the observed negative correlation at the protein level (originally Figure 5D, now Figure 7 – Figure supplement 3A). The text was revised accordingly.  

      In Fig. 1E the authors show evidence that growth rate increases with cell length/area. While this is not a main point of the paper it might be cited by others in the future. There are two possible artifacts that could influence this experiment: a) segmentation: an overestimation of the physical length of the cell based on phase-contrast images (e.g., 200 nm would cause a 10% error in the relative rate of 2 um cells, but not of longer cells). b) timedependent changes of growth rate, e.g., due to change from liquid to solid or other perturbations. To test for the latter, one could measure growth rate as a function of time, restricting the analysis to short or long cells, or measuring growth rate for short/long cells at selected time points. For the former, I recommend comparison of phase-contrast segmentation with FM4-64-stained cell boundaries.

      As the reviewer notes, the small increase in relative growth was just a minor observation that does not affect our story whether it is biologically meaningful or the result of a technical artefact. But we agree with the reviewer that others might cite it in future works and thus should be interpreted with caution.

      An artefact associated with time-dependent changes (e.g. changing from liquid cultures to more solid agarose pads) is unlikely for two reasons. 1. We show that varying the time that cells spend on agarose pads relative to liquid cultures does not affect the cell size-dependent growth rate results (Figure 1 – supplement 5A). 2. We show that the growth rate is stable from the beginning of the time-lapse with no transient effects upon cell placement on agarose pads for imaging (Figure 1 – supplement 1). These results were described in the Methods section where they could easily be missed. We revised the text to discuss these controls more prominently in the Results section.

      As for cell segmentation, we have run simulations and agree with the reviewer that a small overestimation of cell area (which is possible with any cell segmentation methods including ours) could lead to a small increase in relative growth with increasing cell areas (new Figure 1 – Figure supplement 3). Since the finding is not important to our story, we simply revised the text and added the simulation results to alert the readers to the possibility that the observation may be due to a small cell segmentation bias.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      In this work, the authors uncovered the effects of DNA dilution on E. coli, including a decrease in growth rate and a significant change in proteome composition. The authors demonstrated that the decline in growth rate is due to the reduction of active ribosomes and active RNA polymerases because of the limited DNA copy numbers. They further showed that the change in the DNA-to-volume ratio leads to concentration changes in almost 60% of proteins, and these changes mainly stem from the change in the mRNA levels. 

      Thank you for the support and accurate summary!

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Mäkelä et al. here investigate genome concentration as a limiting factor on growth.

      Previous work has identified key roles for transcription (RNA polymerase) and translation (ribosomes) as limiting factors on growth, which enable an exponential increase in cell mass. While a potential limiting role of genome concentration under certain conditions has been explored theoretically, Mäkelä et al. here present direct evidence that when replication is inhibited, genome concentration emerges as a limiting factor. 

      Strengths: 

      A major strength of this paper is the diligent and compelling combination of experiment and modeling used to address this core question. The use of origin- and ftsZ-targeted CRISPRi is a very nice approach that enables dissection of the specific effects of limiting genome dosage in the context of a growing cytoplasm. While it might be expected that genome concentration eventually becomes a limiting factor, what is surprising and novel here is that this happens very rapidly, with growth transitioning even for cells within the normal length distribution for E. coli. Fundamentally, it demonstrates the fine balance of bacterial physiology, where the concentration of the genome itself (at least under rapid growth conditions) is no higher than it needs to be. 

      Thank you!

      Weaknesses: 

      One limitation of the study is that genome concentration is largely treated as a single commodity. While this facilitates their modeling approach, one would expect that the growth phenotypes observed arise due to copy number limitation in a relatively small number of rate-limiting genes. The authors do report shifts in the composition of both the proteome and the transcriptome in response to replication inhibition, but while they report a positional effect of distance from the replication origin (reflecting loss of high-copy, origin-proximal genes), other factors shaping compositional shifts and their functional effects on growth are not extensively explored. This is particularly true for ribosomal RNA itself, which the authors assume to grow proportionately with protein. More generally, understanding which genes exert the greatest copy number-dependent influence on growth may aid both efforts to enhance (biotechnology) and inhibit (infection) bacterial growth. 

      We agree but feel that identifying the specific limiting genes is beyond the scope of the study. This said, we carried out additional experiments and analyses to address the reviewer’s comment and identify potential contributing factors and limiting gene candidates. First, we examined the intracellular concentration of 16S ribosomal RNA (rRNA) by rRNA FISH microscopy and found that it decays much slower than the bulk of mRNAs as measured using RNASelect staining (new Figure 4 and Figure 4 – Figure supplements 1 and 3). We found that the rRNA signal is far more stable in 1N cells than the RNASelect signal, the former decreasing by only ~5% versus ~50% for the later in response to the same range of genome dilution (Figure 4C).  Second,  we carried out new correlation analyses between our proteomic/transcriptomic datasets and published genome-wide datasets that report various variables under unperturbed conditions (e.g., mRNA abundance, mRNA degradation rates, fitness cost, transcription initiation rates, essentiality for viability); see new Figure 7E-G and Figure 7 – Figure supplement 2. In the process, we found that genes essential for viability tend, on average, to display superscaling behavior (Figure 7G). This suggests that cells have evolved mechanisms that prioritize expression of essential genes over nonessential ones during DNA-limited growth. Furthermore, this analysis identified a small number of essential genes that display strong negative RNA slopes (Figure 7C, Datasets 1 and 2), indicating that the concentration of their mRNA decreases rapidly relative to the rest of the transcriptome upon genome dilution. These essential genes with strong subscaling behavior are candidates for being growth-limiting. 

      The text and figures were revised to include these new results.

      Overall, this study provides a fundamental contribution to bacterial physiology by illuminating the relationship between DNA, mRNA, and protein in determining growth rate. While coarse-grained, the work invites exciting questions about how the composition of major cellular components is fine-tuned to a cell's needs and which specific gene products mediate this connection. This work has implications not only for biotechnology, as the authors discuss, but potentially also for our understanding of how DNA-targeted antibiotics limit bacterial growth. 

      Thank you!

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Below are my comments. 

      (1) I noticed that a paper by Li et al. on biorxiv has found similar results as this work ("Scaling between DNA and cell size governs bacterial growth homeostasis and resource allocation," https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.11.12.468234), including the linear growth of E. coli when the DNA concentration is low. This relevant reference was not cited or discussed in the current manuscript. 

      We agree that authors should cite and discuss relevant peer-reviewed literature. But broadly speaking, we feel that extending this responsibility to all preprints (and by extension any online material) that have not been reviewed is a bit dangerous. It would effectively legitimize unreviewed claims and risk their propagation in future publications. We think that while imperfect, the peer-reviewing process still plays an important role. 

      Regarding the specific 2021 preprint that the reviewer pointed out, we think that the presented growth rate data are quite noisy and that the experiments lack a critical control (multi-N cells), making interpretation difficult. Their report that plasmid-borne expression is enhanced when DNA is severely diluted is certainly interesting and makes sense in light of our measurements that the activities, but not the concentrations, of RNA polymerases and ribosomes are reduced in 1N cells. However, we do not know why this preprint has not yet been published since 2021. There could be many possible reasons for this. Therefore, we feel that it is safer to limit our discussion to peer-reviewed literature.

      (2) I think the kinetic Model B in the Appendix has been studied in previous works, such as Klump & Hwa, PNAS 2008, https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0804953105

      Indeed, Klumpp & Hwa 2008 modeled the kinetics of RNA polymerase and promoter association prior to our study. But there is a difference between their model and ours. Their model is based on Michaelis Menten-type (MM) functions in which the RNAP is analogous to the “substrate” and the promoter to the “enzyme” in the MM equation. In contrast, our model uses functions based on the law of mass action (instead of MMtype of function). We have revised the text, included the Klumpp & Hwa 2008 reference, and revised the Materials & Methods section to clarify these points. 

      (3) On lines 284-285, if I understand correctly, the fractions of active RNAPs and active ribosomes are relative to the total protein number. It would be helpful if the authors could mention this explicitly to avoid confusion. 

      The fractions of active RNAPs and active ribosomes are expressed as the percentage of the total RNAPs and ribosomes. We have revised the text to be more explicit. Thank you.

      (4) On line 835, I am not sure what the bulk transcription/translation rate means. I guess it is the maximum transcription/translation rate if all RNAPs/ribosomes are working according to Eq. (1,2). It would be helpful if the authors could explain the meaning of r_1 and r_2 more explicitly. 

      Our apology for the lack of clarity. We have added the following equations:

      (5) Regarding the changes in protein concentrations due to genome dilution, a recent theoretical paper showed that it may come from the heterogeneity in promoter strengths (Wang & Lin, Nature Communications 2021). 

      In the Wang and Lin model, the heterogeneity in promoter strength predicts that the “mRNA production rate equivalent”, which is the mRNA abundance multiplied by the mRNA decay rate, will correlate the RNA slopes. However, we found these two variables to be uncorrelated (see below, The Spearman correlation coefficient ρ was 0.02 with a p-value of 0.24, indicating non-significance (NS).

      Author response image 1.

      The mRNA production rate equivalent (mRNA abundance at the first time point after CRISPRi oriC induction multiplied by the mRNA degradation rate measured by Balakrishnan et al., 2022, PMID: 36480614, expressed in transcript counts per minute) does not correlate (Spearman correlation’s p-value = 0.24) with the RNA slope in 1N-rich cells.  Data from 2570 genes are shown (grey markers, Gaussian kernel density estimation - KDE), and their binned statistics (mean +/- SEM, ~280 genes per bin, orange markers). 

      In addition, we found no significant correlation between RNA slopes and mRNA abundance or transcription initiation rate. These plots are now included in Figure 7E and Figure 7 –Figure supplement 2B. Thus, the promoter strength does not appear to be a predictor of the RNA (and protein) scaling behavior under DNA limitation. 

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      One general area that could be developed further is analysis of changes in the proteome/transcriptome composition, given that there may be specific clues here as to the phenotypic effects of genome concentration limitation. Specifically: 

      • In Figure 5D, the authors demonstrate an effect of origin distance on sensitivity to replication inhibition, presumably as a copy number effect. However, the authors note that the effect was only slight and postulated a compensatory mechanism. Due to the stability of proteins, one should expect relatively small effects - even if synthesis of a protein stopped completely, its concentration would only decrease twofold with a doubling of cell area (slope = -1, if I'm interpreting things correctly). It would be helpful to display the same information shown in Figure 5D at the mRNA level, since I would anticipate that higher mRNA turnover rates mean that effects on transcription rate should be felt more rapidly. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. To our surprise, we found that there is no correlation between gene location relative to the origin and RNA slope across genes. This suggests that the observed correlation between gene location and protein slopes does not occur at the mRNA level. Given that we do not have an explanation for the underlying mechanism, we decided to present these data (the original data in Figure 5D and the new data for the RNA slope) in a supplementary figure (Figure 7 – Figure supplement 3).

      • Related to this, did the authors see any other general trends? For example, do highly expressed genes hit saturation faster, making them more sensitive to limited genome concentration? 

      We found that the RNA slopes do not correlate with mRNA abundance or transcription initiation rates. However, they do correlate with mRNA decay. That is, short-lived mRNAs tend to have negative RNA slopes. The new analyses have been added as Figure 7E-F and Figure 7 – Figure supplement 2B. The text has been revised to incorporate this information. 

      • Presumably loss of growth is primarily driven by a subset of genes whose copy number becomes limiting. Previously, it has been reported that there is a wide variety among "essential" genes in their expression-fitness relationship - i.e. how much of a reduction in expression you need before growth is reduced (e.g. PMID 33080209). It would be interesting to explore the shifts in proteome/transcriptome composition to see whether any genes particularly affected by restricted genome concentration are also especially sensitive to reduced expression - overlap in these datasets may reveal which genes drive the loss of growth. 

      This is a very interesting idea – thank you! We did not find a correlation between the protein/RNA slope and the relative gene fitness as previously calculated (PMID 33080209), as shown below.

      Author response image 2.

      The relative fitness of each gene (data by Hawkins et al., 2020, PMID: 33080209, median fitness from the highest sgRNA activity bin) plotted versus the gene-specific RNA and protein slopes that we measured in 1Nrich cells after CRISPRi oriC induction. More than 260 essential genes are shown (262 RNA slopes and 270 protein slopes, grey markers), and their binned statistics (mean +/- SEM, 43-45 essential genes per bin, orange markers). The spearman correlations (ρ) with p-values above 10-3 are considered not significant (NS). In our analyses, we only considered correlations significant if they have a Spearman correlation p-value below 10-10.

      However, while doing this suggested analysis, we noticed that the essential genes that were included in the forementioned study have RNA slopes above zero on average. This led us to compare the RNA slope distributions of essential genes relative to all genes (now included in Figure 7G). We found that they tend to display superscaling behavior (positive RNA slopes), suggesting the existence of regulatory mechanisms that prioritize the expression of essential genes over less important ones when genome concentration becomes limiting for growth.  The text has been revised to include this new information.

      Other suggestions: 

      • In Figure 3 the authors report that total RNAP concentration increases with increasing cytoplasmic volume. This is in itself an interesting finding as it may imply a compensatory mechanism - can the authors offer an explanation for this? 

      We do not have a straightforward explanation. But we agree that it is very interesting and should be investigated in future studies given that this superscaling behavior is common among essential genes. 

      • The explanation of the modeling within the main text could be improved. Specifically, equations 1 and 2, as well as a discussion of models A and B (lines 290-301), do not explicitly relate DNA concentration to downstream effects. The authors provide the key information in Appendix 1, but for a general reader, it would be helpful to provide some intuition within the main text about how genome concentration influences transcription rate (i.e. via 𝛼RNAP).  

      We apologize for the lack of clarity. We have added information that hopefully improves clarity.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This article presents important results describing how the gathering, integration, and broadcasting of information in the brain changes when consciousness is lost either through anesthesia or injury. They provide convincing evidence to support their conclusions, although the paper relies on a single analysis tool (partial information decomposition) and could benefit from a clearer explication of its conceptual basis, methodology, and results. The work will be of interest to both neuroscientists and clinicians interested in fundamental and clinical aspects of consciousness.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, Luppi et al., apply the recently developed integrated information decomposition to the question how the architecture of information processing changes when consciousness is lost. They explore fMRI data from two different populations: healthy volunteers undergoing reversible anesthesia, as well as from patients who have long-term disorders of consciousness. They show that, in both populations, synergistic integration of information is disrupted in common ways. These results are interpreted in the context of the SAPHIRE model (recently proposed by this same group), that describes information processing in the brain as being composed of several distinct steps: 1) gatekeeping (where gateway regions introduce sensory information to the global synergistic workspace where 2) it is integrated or "processed" before 3) by broadcast back to to the brain.

      I think that this paper is an excellent addition to the literature on information theory in neuroscience, and consciousness science specifically. The writing is clear, the figures are informative, and the authors do a good job of engaging with existing literature. While I do have some questions about the interpretations of the various information-theoretic measures, all in all, I think this is a significant piece of science that I am glad to see added to the literature.

      One specific question I have is that I am still a little unsure about what "synergy" really is in this context. From the methods, it is defined as that part of the joint mutual information that is greater than the maximum marginal mutual information. While this is a perfectly fine mathematical measure, it is not clear to me what that means for a squishy organ like the brain. What should these results mean to a neuro-biologist or clinician?

      Right now the discussion is very high level, equating synergy to "information processing" or "integrated information", but it might be helpful for readers not steeped in multivariate information theory to have some kind of toy model that gets worked out in detail. On page 15, the logical XOR is presented in the context of the single-target PID, but 1) the XOR is discrete, while the data analyzed here are continuous BOLD signals w/ Gaussian assumptions and 2) the XOR gate is a single-target system, while the power of the Phi-ID approach is the multi-target generality. Is there a Gaussian analog of the single-target XOR gate that could be presented? Or some multi-target, Gaussian toy model with enough synergy to be interesting? I think this would go a long way to making this work more accessible to the kind of interdisciplinary readership that this kind of article with inevitably attract.

      We appreciate this observation. We now clarify that:

      “redundancy between two units occurs when their future spontaneous evolution is predicted equally well by the past of either unit. Synergy instead occurs when considering the two units together increases the mutual information between the units’ past and their future – suggesting that the future of each is shaped by its interactions with the other. At the microscale (e.g., for spiking neurons) this phenomenon has been suggested as reflecting “information modification” 36,40,47. Synergy can also be viewed as reflecting the joint contribution of parts of the system to the whole, that is not driven by common input48.”

      In the Methods, we have also added the following example to provide additional intuition about synergy in the case of continuous rather than discrete variables:

      “As another example for the case of Gaussian variables (as employed here), consider a 2-node coupled autoregressive process with two parameters: a noise correlation c and a coupling parameter a. As c increases, the system is flooded by “common noise”, making the system increasingly redundant because the common noise “swamps” the signal of each node. As a increases, each node has a stronger influence both on the other and on the system as a whole, and we expect synergy to increase. Therefore, synergy reflects the joint contribution of parts of the system to the whole that is not driven by common noise. This has been demonstrated through computational modelling (Mediano et al 2019 Entropy).”

      See below for the relevant parts of Figures 1 and 2 from Mediano et al (2019 Entropy), where Psi refers to the total synergy in the system.

      Author response image 1.

      Strengths

      The authors have a very strong collection of datasets with which to explore their topic of interest. By comparing fMRI scans from patients with disorders of consciousness, healthy resting state, and various stages of propofol anesthesia, the authors have a very robust sample of the various ways consciousness can be perturbed, or lost. Consequently, it is difficult to imagine that the observed effects are merely a quirk of some biophysical effect of propofol specifically, or a particular consequence of long-term brain injury, but do in fact reflect some global property related to consciousness. The data and analyses themselves are well-described, have been previously validated, and are generally strong. I have no reason to doubt the technical validity of the presented results.

      The discussion and interpretation of these results is also very nice, bringing together ideas from the two leading neurocognitive theories of consciousness (Global Workspace and Integrated Information Theory) in a way that feels natural. The SAPHIRE model seems plausible and amenable to future research. The authors discuss this in the paper, but I think that future work on less radical interventions (e.g. movie watching, cognitive tasks, etc) could be very helpful in refining the SAPHIRE approach.

      Finally, the analogy between the PID terms and the information provided by each eye redundantly, uniquely, and synergistically is superb. I will definitely be referencing this intuition pump in future discussions of multivariate information sharing.

      We are very grateful for these positive comments, and for the feedback on our eye metaphor.

      Weaknesses

      I have some concerns about the way "information processing" is used in this study. The data analyzed, fMRI BOLD data is extremely coarse, both in spatial and temporal terms. I am not sure I am convinced that this is the natural scale at which to talk about information "processing" or "integration" in the brain. In contrast to measures like sample entropy or Lempel-Ziv complexity (which just describe the statistics of BOLD activity), synergy and Phi are presented here as quasi-causal measures: as if they "cause" or "represent" phenomenological consciousness. While the theoretical arguments linking integration to consciousness are compelling, is this is right data set to explore them in? For example, the work by Newman, Beggs, and Sherril (nee Faber), synergy is associated with "computation" performed in individual neurons: the information about the future state of a target neuron that is only accessible when knowing both inputs (analogous to the synergy in computing the sum of two dice). Whether one thinks that this is a good approach neural computation or not, it fits within the commonly accepted causal model of neural spiking activity: neurons receive inputs from multiple upstream neurons, integrate those inputs and change their firing behavior accordingly.

      In contrast, here, we are looking at BOLD data, which is a proxy measure for gross-scale regional neural activity, which itself is a coarse-graining of millions of individual neurons to a uni-dimensional spectrum that runs from "inactive to active." It feels as though a lot of inferences are being made from very coarse data.

      We appreciate the opportunity to clarify this point. It is not our intention to claim that Phi-R and synergy, as measured at the level of regional BOLD signals, represent a direct cause of consciousness, or are identical to it. Rather, our work is intended to use these measures similarly to the use of sample entropy and LZC for BOLD signals: as theoretically grounded macroscale indicators, whose empirical relationship to consciousness may reveal the relevant underlying phenomena. In other words, while our results do show that BOLD-derived Phi-R tracks the loss and recovery of consciousness, we do not claim that they are the cause of it: only that an empirical relationship exists, which is in line with what we might expect on theoretical grounds. We have now clarified this in the Limitations section of our revised manuscript, as well as revising our language accordingly in the rest of the manuscript.

      We also clarify that the meaning of “information processing” that we adopt pertains to “intrinsic” information that is present in the system’s spontaneous dynamics, rather than extrinsic information about a task:

      “Information decomposition can be applied to neural data from different scales, from electrophysiology to functional MRI, with or without reference to behaviour 34. When behavioural data are taken into account, information decomposition can shed light on the processing of “extrinsic” information, understood as the translation of sensory signals into behavioural choices across neurons or regions 41,43,45,47. However, information decomposition can also be applied to investigate the “intrinsic” information that is present in the brain’s spontaneous dynamics in the absence of any tasks, in the same vein as resting-state “functional connectivity” and methods from statistical causal inference such as Granger causality 49. In this context, information processing should be understood in terms of the dynamics of information: where and how information is stored, transferred, and modified 34.”

      References:

      (1) Newman, E. L., Varley, T. F., Parakkattu, V. K., Sherrill, S. P. & Beggs, J. M. Revealing the Dynamics of Neural Information Processing with Multivariate Information Decomposition. Entropy 24, 930 (2022).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors analysed functional MRI recordings of brain activity at rest, using state-of-the-art methods that reveal the diverse ways in which the information can be integrated in the brain. In this way, they found brain areas that act as (synergistic) gateways for the 'global workspace', where conscious access to information or cognition would occur, and brain areas that serve as (redundant) broadcasters from the global workspace to the rest of the brain. The results are compelling and consisting with the already assumed role of several networks and areas within the Global Neuronal Workspace framework. Thus, in a way, this work comes to stress the role of synergy and redundancy as complementary information processing modes, which fulfill different roles in the big context of information integration.

      In addition, to prove that the identified high-order interactions are relevant to the phenomenon of consciousness, the same analysis was performed in subjects under anesthesia or with disorders of consciousness (DOC), showing that indeed the loss of consciousness is associated with a deficient integration of information within the gateway regions.

      However, there is something confusing in the redundancy and synergy matrices shown in Figure 2. These are pair-wise matrices, where the PID was applied to identify high-order interactions between pairs of brain regions. I understand that synergy and redundancy are assessed in the way the brain areas integrate information in time, but it is still a little contradictory to speak about high-order in pairs of areas. When talking about a "synergistic core", one expects that all or most of the areas belonging to that core are simultaneously involved in some (synergistic) information processing, and I do not see this being assessed with the currently presented methodology. Similarly, if redundancy is assessed only in pairs of areas, it may be due to simple correlations between them, so it is not a high-order interaction. Perhaps it is a matter of language, or about the expectations that the word 'synergy' evokes, so a clarification about this issue is needed. Moreover, as the rest of the work is based on these 'pair-wise' redundancy and synergy matrices, it becomes a significative issue.

      We are grateful for the opportunity to clarify this point. We should highlight that PhiID is in fact assessing four variables: the past of region X, the past of region B, the future of region X, and the future of region Y. Since X and Y each feature both in the past and in the future, we can re-conceptualise the PhiID outputs as reflecting the temporal evolution of how X and Y jointly convey information: the persistent redundancy that we consider corresponds to information that is always present in both X and Y; whereas the persistent synergy is information that X and Y always convey synergistically. In contrast, information transfer would correspond to the phenomenon whereby information was conveyed by one variable in the past, and by the other in the future (see Luppi et al., 2024 TICS; and Mediano et al., 2021 arXiv for more thorough discussions on this point). We have now added this clarification in our Introduction and Results, as well as adding the new Figure 2 to clarify the meaning of PhiID terms.

      We would also like to clarify that all the edges that we identify as significantly changing are indeed simultaneously involved in the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness. This is because the Network-Based Statistic differs from other ways of identifying edges that are significantly different between two groups or conditions, because it does not consider edges in isolation, but only as part of a single connected component.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The work proposes a model of neural information processing based on a 'synergistic global workspace,' which processes information in three principal steps: a gatekeeping step (information gathering), an information integration step, and finally, a broadcasting step. The authors determined the synergistic global workspace based on previous work and extended the role of its elements using 100 fMRI recordings of the resting state of healthy participants of the HCP. The authors then applied network analysis and two different measures of information integration to examine changes in reduced states of consciousness (such as anesthesia and after-coma disorders of consciousness). They provided an interpretation of the results in terms of the proposed model of brain information processing, which could be helpful to be implemented in other states of consciousness and related to perturbative approaches. Overall, I found the manuscript to be well-organized, and the results are interesting and could be informative for a broad range of literature, suggesting interesting new ideas for the field to explore. However, there are some points that the authors could clarify to strengthen the paper. Key points include:

      (1) The work strongly relies on the identification of the regions belonging to the synergistic global workspace, which was primarily proposed and computed in a previous paper by the authors. It would be great if this computation could be included in a more explicit way in this manuscript to make it self-contained. Maybe include some table or figure being explicit in the Gradient of redundancy-to-synergy relative importance results and procedure.

      We have now added the new Supplementary Figure 1 to clarify how the synergistic workspace is identified, as per Luppi et al (2022 Nature Neuroscience).

      (2) It would be beneficial if the authors could provide further explanation regarding the differences in the procedure for selecting the workspace and its role within the proposed architecture. For instance, why does one case uses the strength of the nodes while the other case uses the participation coefficient? It would be interesting to explore what would happen if the workspace was defined directly using the participation coefficient instead of the strength. Additionally, what impact would it have on the procedure if a different selection of modules was used? For example, instead of using the RSN, other criteria, such as modularity algorithms, PCA, Hidden Markov Models, Variational Autoencoders, etc., could be considered. The main point of my question is that, probably, the RSN are quite redundant networks and other methods, as PCA generates independent networks. It would be helpful if the authors could offer some comments on their intuition regarding these points without necessarily requiring additional computations.

      We appreciate the opportunity to clarify this point. Our rationale for the procedure used to identify the workspace is to find regions where synergy is especially prominent. This is due to the close mathematical relationship between synergistic information and integration of information (see also Luppi et al., 2024 TICS), which we view as the core function of the global workspace. This identification is based on the strength ranking, as per Luppi et al (2022 Nature Neuroscience), which demonstrated that regions where synergy predominates (i.e., our proposed workspace) are also involved with high-level cognitive functions and anatomically coincide with transmodal association cortices at the confluence of multiple information streams. This is what we should expect of a global workspace, which is why we use the strength of synergistic interactions to identify it, rather than the participation coefficient. Subsequently, to discern broadcasters from gateways within the synergistic workspace, we seek to encapsulate the meaning of a “broadcaster” in information terms. We argue that this corresponds with making the same information available to multiple modules. Sameness of information corresponds to redundancy, and multiplicity of modules can be reflected in the network-theoretic notion of participation coefficient. Thus, a broadcaster is a region in the synergistic workspace (i.e., a region with strong synergistic interactions) that in addition has a high participation coefficient for its redundant interactions.

      Pertaining specifically to the use of resting-state networks as modules, indeed our own (Luppi et al., 2022 Nature Neuroscience) and others’ research has shown that each RSN entertains primarily redundant interactions among its constituent regions. This is not surprising, since RSNs are functionally defined: their constituent elements need to process the same information (e.g., pertaining to a visual task in case of the visual network). We used the RSNs as our definition of modules, because they are widely understood to reflect the intrinsic organisation of brain activity into functional units; for example, Smith et al., (2009 PNAS) and Cole et al (2014 Neuron) both showed that RSNs reflect task-related co-activation of regions, whether directly quantified from fMRI in individuals performing multiple tasks, or inferred from meta-analysis of the neuroimaging literature. This is the aspect of a “module” that matters from the global workspace perspective: modules are units with distinct function, and RSNs capture this well. This is therefore why we use the RSNs as modules when defining the participation coefficient: they provide an a-priori division into units with functionally distinct roles.

      Nonetheless, we also note that RSN organisation is robustly recovered using many different methods, including seed-based correlation from specific regions-of-interest, or Independent Components Analysis, or community detection on the network of inter-regional correlations - demonstrating that they are not merely a function of the specific method used to identify them. In fact, we show significant correlation between participation coefficient defined in terms of RSNs, and in terms of modules identified in a purely data-driven manner from Louvain consensus clustering (Figure S4).

      (3) The authors acknowledged the potential relevance of perturbative approaches in terms of PCI and quantification of consciousness. It would be valuable if the authors could also discuss perturbative approaches in relation to inducing transitions between brain states. In other words, since the authors investigate disorders of consciousness where interventions could provide insights into treatment, as suggested by computational and experimental works, it would be interesting to explore the relationship between the synergistic workspace and its modifications from this perspective as well.

      We thank the Reviewer for bringing this up: we now cite several studies that in recent years have applied perturbative approaches to induce transitions between states of consciousness.

      “The PCI is used as a means of assessing the brain’s current state, but stimulation protocols can also be adopted to directly induce transitions between states of consciousness. In rodents, carbachol administration to frontal cortex awakens rats from sevoflurane anaesthesia120, and optogenetic stimulation was used to identify a role of central thalamus neurons in controlling transitions between states of responsiveness121,122. Additionally, several studies in non-human primates have now shown that electrical stimulation of the central thalamus can reliably induce awakening from anaesthesia, accompanied by the reversal of electrophysiological and fMRI markers of anaesthesia 123–128. Finally, in human patients suffering from disorders of consciousness, stimulation of intra-laminar central thalamic nuclei was reported to induce behavioural improvement 129, and ultrasonic stimulation 130,131 and deep-brain stimulation are among potential therapies being considered for DOC patients 132,133. It will be of considerable interest to determine whether our corrected measure of integrated information and topography of the synergistic workspace also restored by these causal interventions.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I would appreciate it if the authors could revisit the figures and make sure that:

      (1) All fonts are large enough to be readable for people with visual impairments (for ex. the ranges on the colorbars in Fig. 2 are unreadably small).

      Thank you: we have increased font sizes.

      (2) The colormaps are scaled to show meaningful differences (Fig. 2A)

      We have changed the color scale in Figure 2A and 2B.

      Also, the authors may want to revisit the references section: some of the papers that were pre-prints at one point have now been published and should be updated.

      Thank you: we have updated our references.

      Minor comments:

      • In Eqs. 2 and 3, the unique information term uses the bar notation ( | ) that is typically indicative of "conditioned on." Perhaps the authors could use a slash notation (e.g. Unq(X ; Z / Y)) to avoid this ambiguity? My understanding of the Unique information is that it is not necessarily "conditioned on", so much as it is "in the context of".

      Indeed, the “|” sign of “conditioning” could be misleading; however, the “/” sign could also be misleading, if interpreted as division. Therefore, we have opted for the “\” sign of “set difference”, in Eq 2 and 3, which is conceptually more appropriate in this context.

      • The font on the figures is a little bit small - for readers with poor eyes, it might be helpful to increase the wording size.

      We have increased font sizes in the figures where relevant.

      • I don't quite understand what is happening in Fig. 2A - perhaps it is a colormap issue, but it seems as though it's just a bit white square? It looks like redundancy is broadly correlated with FC (just based on the look of the adjacency matrices), but I have no real sense of what the synergistic matrix looks like, other than "flat."

      We have now changed the color scale in Figure 2.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Besides the issues mentioned in the Public review, I have the following suggestions to improve the manuscript:

      • At the end of the introduction, a few lines could be added explaining why the study of DOC patients and subjects under anesthesia will be informative in the context of this work.

      By comparing functional brain scans from transient anaesthetic-induced unconsciousness and from the persistent unconsciousness of DOC patients, which arises from brain injury, we can search for common brain changes associated with loss of consciousness – thereby disambiguating what is specific to loss of consciousness.

      • On page and in general the first part of Results, it is not evident that you are working with functional connectivity. Many times the word 'connection' is used and sometimes I was wondering whether they were structural or functional. Please clarify. Also, the meaning of 'synergistic connection' or 'redundant connection' could be explained in lay terms.

      Thank you for bringing this up. We have now replaced the word “connection” with “interaction” to disambiguate this issue, further adding “functional” where appropriate. We have also provided, in the Introduction, an intuitive explanation of what synergy and redundancy mean int he context of spontaneous fMRI signals.

      • Figure 2 needs a lot of improvement. The matrix of synergistic interactions looks completely yellow-ish with some vague areas of white. So everything is above 2. What does it mean?? Pretty uninformative. The matrix of redundant connections looks a lot of black, with some red here and there. So everything is below 0.6. Also, what are the meaning and units of the colorbars?.

      We agree: we have increased font sizes, added labels, and changed the color scale in Figure 2. We hope that the new version of Figure 2 will be clearer.

      • Caption of Figure 2 mentions "... brain regions identified as belonging to the synergistic global workspace". I didn't get it clear how do you define these areas. Are they just the sum of gateways and broadcasters, or is there another criterion?

      Regions belonging to the synergistic workspace are indeed the set comprising gateways and broadcasters; they are the regions that are synergy-dominated, as defined in Luppi et al., 2022 Nature Neuroscience. We have now clarified this in the figure caption.

      • In the first lines of page 7, it is said that data from DOC and anesthesia was parcellated in 400 + 54 regions. However, it was said in a manner that made me think it was a different parcellation than the other data. Please make it clear that the parcellation is the same (if it is).

      We have now clarified that the 400 cortical regions are from the Schaefer atlas, and 54 subcortical regions from the Tian atlas, as for the other analysis. The only other parcellation that we use is the Schaefer-232, for the robustness analysis. This is also reported in the Methods.

      • Figure 3: the labels in the colorbars cannot be read, please make them bigger. Also, the colorbars and colorscales should be centered in white, to make it clear that red is positive and blue is negative. O at least maintain consistency across the panels (I can't tell because of the small numbers).

      Thank you: we have increased font sizes, added labels, indicated that white refers to zero (so that red is always an increase, and blue is always a decrease), and changed the color scale in Figure 2.

      • The legend of Figure 4 is written in a different style, interpreting the figure rather than describing it. Please describe the figure in the caption, in order to let the read know what they are looking at.

      We have endeavoured to rewrite the legend of Figure 4 in a style that is more consistent with the other figures.

      • In several parts the 'whole-minus-sum' phi measure is mentioned and it is said that it did not decrease during loss of consciousness. However, I did not see any figure about that nor any conspicuous reference to that in Results text. Where is it?

      We apologise for the confusion: this is Figure S3A, in the Supplementary. We have now clarified this in the text.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In the same direction, regarding Fig. 2, in my opinion, it does not effectively aid in understanding the selection of regions as more synergistic or redundant. In panels A) and B), the color scales could be improved to better distinguish regions in the matrices (panel A) is saturated at the upper limit, while panel B) is saturated at the lower limit). Additionally, I suggest indicating in the panels what is being measured with the color scales.

      Thank you: we have increased font sizes, added labels, and changed the color scale in Figure 2.

      (2) When investigating the synergistic core of human consciousness and interpreting the results of changes in information integration measures in terms of the proposed framework, did the authors consider the synergistic workspace computed in HCP data? If the answer is positive, it would be helpful for the authors to be more explicit about it and elaborate on any differences that may be found, as well as the potential impact on interpretation.

      This is correct: the synergistic workspace, including gateways and broadcasters, are identified from the Human Connectome Project dataset. We now clarify this in the manuscript.

      Minors:

      (1) I would suggest improving the readability of figures 2 and 3, considering font size (letters and numbers) and color bars (numbers and indicate what is measured with this scale). In Figure 1, the caption defines steps instead stages that are indicated in the figure.

      Thank you: we have increased font sizes, added labels, and replaced steps with “stages” in Figure 1.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We summarized the main changes:

      (1) In the Introduction part, we give a general definition of habitat fragmentation to avoid confusion, as reviewers #1 and #2 suggested.

      (2) We clarify the two aspects of the observed “extinction”——“true dieback” and “emigration”, as reviewers #2 and #3 suggested.

      (3) In the Methods part, we 1) clarify the reason for testing the temporal trend in colonization/extinction dynamics and describe how to select islands as reviewer #1 suggested; 2) describe how to exclude birds from the analysis as reviewer #2 suggested.

      (4) In the Results part, we modified and rearranged Figure 4-6 as reviewers #1, #2 and #3 suggested.

      (5) In the Discussion part, we 1) discuss the multiple aspects of the metric of isolation for future research as reviewer #3 suggested; 2) provide concrete evidence about the relationship between habitat diversity or heterogeneity and island area and 3) provide a wider perspective about how our results can inform conservation practices in fragmented habitats as reviewer #2 suggested.

      eLife Assessment

      This important study enhances our understanding of how habitat fragmentation and climate change jointly influence bird community thermophilization in a fragmented island system. The evidence supporting some conclusions is incomplete, as while the overall trends are convincing, some methodological aspects, particularly the isolation metrics and interpretation of colonization/extinction rates, require further clarification. This work will be of broad interest to ecologists and conservation biologists, providing crucial insights into how ecosystems and communities react to climate change.

      We sincerely extend our gratitude to you and the esteemed reviewers for acknowledging the importance of our study and for raising these concerns. We have clarified the rationale behind our analysis of temporal trends in colonization and extinction dynamics, as well as the choice of distance to the mainland as the isolation metric. Additionally, we further discuss the multiple aspects of the metric of isolation for future research and provide concrete supporting evidence about the relationship between habitat diversity or heterogeneity and island area.

      Incorporating these valuable suggestions, we have thoroughly revised our manuscript, ensuring that it now presents a more comprehensive and nuanced account of our research. We are confident that these improvements will further enhance the impact and relevance of our work for ecologists and conservation biologists alike, offering vital insights into the resilience and adaptation strategies of communities facing the challenges of climate change.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study reports on the thermophilization of bird communities in a network of islands with varying areas and isolation in China. Using data from 10 years of transect surveys, the authors show that warm-adapted species tend to gradually replace cold-adapted species, both in terms of abundance and occurrence. The observed trends in colonisations and extinctions are related to the respective area and isolation of islands, showing an effect of fragmentation on the process of thermophilization.

      Strengths:

      Although thermophilization of bird communities has been already reported in different contexts, it is rare that this process can be related to habitat fragmentation, despite the fact that it has been hypothesized for a long time that it could play an important role. This is made possible thanks to a really nice study system in which the construction of a dam has created this incredible Thousand Islands lake. Here, authors do not simply take observed presence-absence as granted and instead develop an ambitious hierarchical dynamic multi-species occupancy model. Moreover, they carefully interpret their results in light of their knowledge of the ecology of the species involved.

      Response: We greatly appreciate your recognition of our study system and the comprehensive approach and careful interpretation of results. 

      Weaknesses:

      Despite the clarity of this paper on many aspects, I see a strong weakness in the authors' hypotheses, which obscures the interpretation of their results. Looking at Figure 1, and in many sentences of the text, a strong baseline hypothesis is that thermophilization occurs because of an increasing colonisation rate of warm-adapted species and extinction rate of cold-adapted species. However, there does not need to be a temporal trend! Any warm-adapted species that colonizes a site has a positive net effect on CTI; similarly, any cold-adapted species that goes extinct contributes to thermophilization.

      Thank you very much for these thoughtful comments. The understanding depends on the time frame of the study and specifically, whether the system is at equilibrium. We think your claim is based on this background: if the system is not at equilibrium, then CTI can shift simply by having differential colonization (or extinction) rates for warm-adapted versus cold-adapted species. We agree with you in this case.

      On the other hand, if a community is at equilibrium, then there will be no net change in CTI over time. Imagine we have an archipelago where the average colonization of warm-adapted species is larger than the average colonization of cold-adapted species, then over time the archipelago will reach an equilibrium with stable colonization/extinction dynamics where the average CTI is stable over time. Once it is stable, then if there is a temporal trend in colonization rates, the CTI will change until a new equilibrium is reached (if it is reached).

      For our system, the question then is whether we can assume that the system is or has ever been at equilibrium. If it is not at equilibrium, then CTI can shift simply by having differential colonization (or extinction) rates for warm-adapted versus cold-adapted species. If the system is at equilibrium (at the beginning of the study), then CTI will only shift if there is a temporal change or trend in colonization or extinction rates.

      Habitat fragmentation can affect biomes for decades after dam formation. The “Relaxation effect” (Gonzalez, 2000) refers to the fact that the continent acts as a potential species pool for island communities. Under relaxation, some species will be filtered out over time, mainly through the selective extinction of species that are highly sensitive to fragmentation. Meanwhile, for a 100-hectare patch, it takes about ten years to lose 50% of bird species; The smaller the patch area, the shorter the time required (Ferraz et al., 2003; Haddad et al., 2015). This study was conducted 50 to 60 years after the formation of the TIL, making the system with a high probability of reaching “equilibrium” through “Relaxation effect”(Si et al., 2014). We have no way of knowing exactly whether “equilibrium” is true in our system. Thus, changing rates of colonization-extinction over time is actually a much stronger test of thermophilization, which makes our inference more robust.

      We add a note to the legend of Figure 1 on Lines 781-786:

      “CTI can also change simply due to differential colonization-extinction rates by thermal affinity if the system is not at equilibrium prior to the study. In our study system, we have no way of knowing whether our island system was at equilibrium at onset of the study, thus, focusing on changing rates of colonization-extinction over time presents a much stronger tests of thermophilization.”

      We hope this statement can make it clear. Thank you again for this meaningful question.

      Another potential weakness is that fragmentation is not clearly defined. Generally, fragmentation sensu lato involves both loss of habitat area and changes in the spatial structure of habitats (i.e. fragmentation per se). Here, both area and isolation are considered, which may be slightly confusing for the readers if not properly defined.

      Thank you for reminding us of that. Habitat fragmentation in this study involves both habitat loss and fragmentation per se. We have clarified the general definition in the Introduction on Lines 61-63:

      “Habitat fragmentation, usually defined as the shifts of continuous habitat into spatially isolated and small patches (Fahrig, 2003), in particular, has been hypothesized to have interactive effects with climate change on community dynamics.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study addresses whether bird community reassembly in time is related to climate change by modelling a widely used metric, the community temperature index (CTI). The authors first computed the temperature index of 60 breeding bird species thanks to distribution atlases and climatic maps, thus obtaining a measure of the species realized thermal niche.

      These indices were aggregated at the community level, using 53 survey transects of 36 islands (repeated for 10 years) of the Thousand Islands Lake, eastern China. Any increment of this CTI (i.e. thermophilization) can thus be interpreted as a community reassembly caused by a change in climate conditions (given no confounding correlations).

      The authors show thanks to a mix of Bayesian and frequentist mixed effect models to study an increment of CTI at the island level, driven by both extinction (or emigration) of cold-adapted species and colonization of newly adapted warm-adapted species. Less isolated islands displayed higher colonization and extinction rates, confirming that dispersal constraints (created by habitat fragmentation per se) on colonization and emigration are the main determinants of thermophilization. The authors also had the opportunity to test for habitat amount (here island size). They show that the lack of microclimatic buffering resulting from less forest amount (a claim backed by understory temperature data) exacerbated the rates of cold-adapted species extinction while fostering the establishment of warm-adapted species.

      Overall these findings are important to range studies as they reveal the local change in affinity to the climate of species comprising communities while showing that the habitat fragmentation VS amount distinction is relevant when studying thermophilization. As is, the manuscript lacks a wider perspective about how these results can be fed into conservation biology, but would greatly benefit from it. Indeed, this study shows that in a fragmented reserve context, habitat amount is very important in explaining trends of loss of cold-adapted species, hinting that it may be strategic to prioritize large habitats to conserve such species. Areas of diverse size may act as stepping stones for species shifting range due to climate change, with small islands fostering the establishment of newly adapted warm-adapted species while large islands act as refugia for cold-adapted species. This study also shows that the removal of dispersal constraints with low isolation may help species relocate to the best suitable microclimate in a heterogenous reserve context.

      Thank you very much for your valuable feedback. We greatly appreciate your recognition of the scientific question to the extensive dataset and diverse approach. In particular, you provided constructive suggestions and examples on how to extend the results to conservation guidance. This is something we can’t ignore in the manuscript. We have added a paragraph to the end of the Discussion, stating how our results can inform conservation, on Lines 339-347:

      ‘Overall, our findings have important implications for conservation practices. Firstly, we confirmed the role of isolation in limiting range shifting. Better connected landscapes should be developed to remove dispersal constraints and facilitate species’ relocation to the best suitable microclimate. Second, small patches can foster the establishment of newly adapted warm-adapted species while large patches can act as refugia for cold-adapted species. Therefore, preserving patches of diverse sizes can act as stepping stones or shelters in a warming climate depending on the thermal affinity of species. These insights are important supplement to the previous emphasis on the role of habitat diversity in fostering (Richard et al., 2021) or reducing (Gaüzère et al., 2017) community-level climate debt.’

      Strength:

      The strength of the study lies in its impressive dataset of bird resurveys, that cover 10 years of continued warming (as evidenced by weather data), 60 species in 36 islands of varying size and isolation, perfect for disentangling habitat fragmentation and habitat amount effects on communities. This distinction allows us to test very different processes mediating thermophilization; island area, linked to microclimatic buffering, explained rates for a variety of species. Dispersal constraints due to fragmentation were harder to detect but confirms that fragmentation does slow down thermophilization processes.

      This study is a very good example of how the expected range shift at the biome scale of the species materializes in small fragmented regions. Specifically, the regional dynamics the authors show are analogous to what processes are expected at the trailing and colonizing edge of a shifting range: warmer and more connected places display the fastest turnover rates of community reassembly. The authors also successfully estimated extinction and colonization rates, allowing a more mechanistic understanding of CTI increment, being the product of two processes.

      The authors showed that regional diversity and CTI computed only by occurrences do not respond in 10 years of warming, but that finer metrics (abundance-based, or individual islands considered) do respond. This highlights the need to consider a variety of case-specific metrics to address local or regional trends. Figure Appendix 2 is a much-appreciated visualization of the effect of different data sources on Species thermal Index (STI) calculation.

      The methods are long and diverse, but they are documented enough so that an experienced user with the use of the provided R script can follow and reproduce them.

      Thank you very much for your profound Public Review. We greatly appreciate your recognition of the scientific question, the extensive dataset and the diverse approach. 

      Weaknesses:

      While the overall message of the paper is supported by data, the claims are not uniformly backed by the analysis. The trends of island-specific thermophilization are very credible (Figure 3), however, the variable nature of bird observations (partly compensated by an impressive number of resurveys) propagate a lot of errors in the estimation of species-specific trends in occupancy, abundance change, and the extinction and colonization rates. This materializes into a weak relationship between STI and their respective occupancy and abundance change trends (Figure 4a, Figure 5, respectively), showing that species do not uniformly contribute to the trend observed in Figure 3. This is further shown by the results presented in Figure 6, which present in my opinion the topical finding of the study. While a lot of species rates response to island areas are significant, the isolation effect on colonization and extinction rates can only be interpreted as a trend as only a few species have a significant effect. The actual effect on the occupancy change rates of species is hard to grasp, and this trend has a potentially low magnitude (see below).

      Thank you very much for pointing out this shortcoming. The R2 between STI and their respective occupancy trends is relatively small (R2\=0.035). But the R2 between STI and their respective abundance change trends are relatively bigger, in the context of Ecology research (R2\=0.123). The R2 between STI and their respective colonization rate (R2\=0.083) and extinction rate trends (R2\=0.053) are also relatively small. Low R2 indicates that we can’t make predictions using the current model, we must notice that except STI, other factors may influence the species-specific occupancy trend. Nonetheless, it is important to notice that the standardized coefficient estimates are not minor and the trend is also significant, indicating the species-specific response is as least related to STI.

      The number of species that have significant interaction terms for isolation (Figure 6) is indeed low. Although there is uncertainty in the estimation of relationships, there are also consistent trends in response to habitat fragmentation of colonization of warm-adapted species and extinction of cold-adapted species. This is especially true for the effect of isolation, where on islands nearer to the mainland, warm-adapted species (15 out of 15 investigated species) increased their colonization probability at a higher rate over time, while most cold-adapted species (21 out of 23 species) increased their extinction probability at a higher rate. We now better highlight these results in the Results and Discussion.

      While being well documented, the myriad of statistical methods used by the authors ampere the interpretation of the figure as the posterior mean presented in Figure 4b and Figure 6 needs to be transformed again by a logit-1 and fed into the equation of the respective model to make sense of. I suggest a rewording of the caption to limit its dependence on the method section for interpretation.

      Thank you for this suggestion. The value on the Y axis indicates the posterior mean of each variable (year, area, isolation and their interaction effects) extracted from the MSOM model, where the logit(extinction rate) or logit(colonization rate) was the response variable. All variables were standardized before analysis to make them comparable so interpretation is actually quite straight forward: positive values indicate positive influence while negative values indicate negative influence. Because the goal of Figure 6 is to display the negative/positive effect, we didn’t back-transform them. Following your advice, we thus modified the caption of Figure 6 (now renumbered as Figure 5, following a comment from Reviewer #3, to move Figure 5 to Figure 4c). The modified title and legends of Figure 5 are on Lines 817-820:

      “Figure 5. Posterior estimates of logit-scale parameters related to cold-adapted species’ extinction rates and warm-adapted species’ colonization rates. Points are species-specific posterior means on the logit-scale, where parameters >0 indicate positive effects (on extinction [a] or colonization [b]) and parameters <0 indicate negative effects...”

      By using a broad estimate of the realized thermal niche, a common weakness of thermophilization studies is the inability to capture local adaptation in species' physiological or behavioral response to a rise in temperature. The authors however acknowledge this limitation and provide specific examples of how species ought to evade high temperatures in this study region.

      We appreciate your recognition. This is a common problem in STI studies. We hope in future studies, researchers can take more details about microclimate of species’ true habitat across regions into consideration when calculating STI. Although challenging, focusing on a smaller portion of its distribution range may facilitate achievement.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Juan Liu et al. investigated the interplay between habitat fragmentation and climate-driven thermophilization in birds in an island system in China. They used extensive bird monitoring data (9 surveys per year per island) across 36 islands of varying size and isolation from the mainland covering 10 years. The authors use extensive modeling frameworks to test a general increase in the occurrence and abundance of warm-dwelling species and vice versa for cold-dwelling species using the widely used Community Temperature Index (CTI), as well as the relationship between island fragmentation in terms of island area and isolation from the mainland on extinction and colonization rates of cold- and warm-adapted species. They found that indeed there was thermophilization happening during the last 10 years, which was more pronounced for the CTI based on abundances and less clearly for the occurrence-based metric. Generally, the authors show that this is driven by an increased colonization rate of warm-dwelling and an increased extinction rate of cold-dwelling species. Interestingly, they unravel some of the mechanisms behind this dynamic by showing that warm-adapted species increased while cold-dwelling decreased more strongly on smaller islands, which is - according to the authors - due to lowered thermal buffering on smaller islands (which was supported by air temperature monitoring done during the study period on small and large islands). They argue, that the increased extinction rate of cold-adapted species could also be due to lowered habitat heterogeneity on smaller islands. With regards to island isolation, they show that also both thermophilization processes (increase of warm and decrease of cold-adapted species) were stronger on islands closer to the mainland, due to closer sources to species populations of either group on the mainland as compared to limited dispersal (i.e. range shift potential) in more isolated islands.

      The conclusions drawn in this study are sound, and mostly well supported by the results. Only a few aspects leave open questions and could quite likely be further supported by the authors themselves thanks to their apparent extensive understanding of the study system.

      Strengths:

      The study questions and hypotheses are very well aligned with the methods used, ranging from field surveys to extensive modeling frameworks, as well as with the conclusions drawn from the results. The study addresses a complex question on the interplay between habitat fragmentation and climate-driven thermophilization which can naturally be affected by a multitude of additional factors than the ones included here. Nevertheless, the authors use a well-balanced method of simplifying this to the most important factors in question (CTI change, extinction, and colonization, together with habitat fragmentation metrics of isolation and island area). The interpretation of the results presents interesting mechanisms without being too bold on their findings and by providing important links to the existing literature as well as to additional data and analyses presented in the appendix.

      We appreciate very much for your positive and constructive comments and suggestions. Thank you for your recognition of the scientific question, the modeling approach and the conclusions. 

      Weaknesses:

      The metric of island isolation based on the distance to the mainland seems a bit too oversimplified as in real life the study system rather represents an island network where the islands of different sizes are in varying distances to each other, such that smaller islands can potentially draw from the species pools from near-by larger islands too - rather than just from the mainland. Thus a more holistic network metric of isolation could have been applied or at least discussed for future research. The fact, that the authors did find a signal of island isolation does support their method, but the variation in responses to this metric could hint at a more complex pattern going on in real-life than was assumed for this study.

      Thank you for this meaningful question. Isolation can be measured in different ways in the study region. We chose the distance to the mainland as a measure of isolation based on the results of a previous study. One study in our system provided evidence that the colonization rate and extinction rate of breeding bird species were best fitted using distance to the nearest mainland over other distance-based measures (distance to the nearest landmass, distance to the nearest bigger landmass)(Si et al., 2014). Besides, their results produced almost identical patterns of the relationship between isolation and colonization/extinction rate (Si et al., 2014). That’s why we only selected “Distance to the mainland” in our current analysis and we do find some consistent patterns as expected. The plants on all islands were cleared out about 60 years ago due to dam construction, with all bird species coming from the mainland as the original species pool through a process called “relaxation”. This could be the reason why distance to the nearest mainland is the best predictor.

      We agree with you that it’s still necessary to consider more aspects of “isolation” at least in discussion for future research. In our Discussion, we address these on Lines 292-299:

      “As a caveat, we only consider the distance to the nearest mainland as a measure of fragmentation, consistent with previous work in this system (Si et al., 2014), but we acknowledge that other distance-based metrics of isolation that incorporate inter-island connections could reveal additional insights on fragmentation effects. The spatial arrangement of islands, like the arrangement of habitat, can influence niche tracking of species (Fourcade et al., 2021). Future studies should take these metrics into account to thoroughly understand the influence of isolation and spatial arrangement of patches in mediating the effect of climate warming on species.”

      Further, the link between larger areas and higher habitat diversity or heterogeneity could be presented by providing evidence for this relationship. The authors do make a reference to a paper done in the same study system, but a more thorough presentation of it would strengthen this assumption further.

      Thank you very much for this question. We now add more details about the relationship between habitat diversity and heterogeneity based on a related study in the same system. The observed number of species significantly increased with increasing island area (slope = 4.42, R2 = 0.70, p < .001), as did the rarefied species richness per island (slope = 1.03, R2 = 0.43, p < .001), species density (slope = 0.80, R2 = 0.33, p = .001) and the rarefied species richness per unit area (slope = 0.321, R2 = 0.32, p = .001). We added this supporting evidence on Lines 317-321:

      “We thus suppose that habitat heterogeneity could also mitigate the loss of these relatively cold-adapted species as expected. Habitat diversity, including the observed number of species, the rarefied species richness per island, species density and the rarefied species richness per unit area, all increased significantly with island area instead of isolation in our system (Liu et al., 2020)”

      Despite the general clear patterns found in the paper, there were some idiosyncratic responses. Those could be due to a multitude of factors which could be discussed a bit better to inform future research using a similar study design.

      Thank you for these suggestions. We added a summary statement about the reasons for idiosyncratic responses on Lines 334-338:

      “Overall, these idiosyncratic responses reveal several possible mechanisms in regulating species' climate responses, including resource demands and biological interactions like competition and predation. Future studies are needed to take these factors into account to understand the complex mechanisms by which habitat loss meditates species range shifts.”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Figure 1: I disagree that there should be a temporal trend in colonisation/extinction dynamics.

      Thank you again for these thoughtful comments. We have explained in detail in the response to the Public Review.

      (2) L 485-487: As explained before I disagree. I don't see why there needs to be a temporal trend in colonization and extinction.

      Thank you again for these thoughtful comments. Because we can’t guarantee that the study system has reached equilibrium, changing rates of colonization-extinction over time is actually a much stronger test of thermophilization. More detailed statement can be seen in the response to the Public Review.

      (3) L 141: which species' ecological traits?

      Sorry for the confusion. The traits included continuous variables (dispersal ability, body size, body mass and clutch size) and categorical variables (diet, active layer, residence type). Specifically, we tested the correlation between STI and dispersal ability, body size, body mass and clutch size using Pearson correlation test. We also tested the difference in STI between different trait groups using the Wilcoxon signed-rank test for three Category variables: diet (carnivorous/ omnivorous/ herbivory), active layer (canopy/mid/low), and residence type (resident species/summer visitor). There is no significant difference between any two groups for each of the three category variables (p > 0.2). We added these on Lines 141-145:

      “No significant correlation was found between STI and species’ ecological traits; specifically, the continuous variables of dispersal ability, body size, body mass and clutch size (Pearson correlations for each, |r| < 0.22), and the categorial variables of diet (carnivorous/omnivorous/herbivory), active layer (canopy/mid/low), and residence type (resident species/summer visitor)”

      (4) L 143: CTIoccur and CTIabun were not defined before.

      Because CTIoccur and CTIabun were first defined in Methods part (section 4.4), we change the sentence to a more general statement here on Lines 147-150:

      “At the landscape scale, considering species detected across the study area, occurrence-based CTI (CTIoccur; see section 4.4) showed no trend (posterior mean temporal trend = 0.414; 95% CrI: -12.751, 13.554) but abundance-based CTI (CTIabun; see section 4.4) showed a significant increasing trend.”

      (5) Figure 4: what is the dashed vertical line? I assume the mean STI across species?

      Sorry for the unclear description. The vertical dashed line indicates the median value of STI for 60 species, as a separation of warm-adapted species and cold-adapted species. We have added these details on Lines 807-809:

      “The dotted vertical line indicates the median of STI values. Cold-adapted species are plotted in blue and warm-adapted species are plotted in orange.”

      (6) Figure 6: in the legend, replace 'points in blue' with 'points in blue/orange' or 'solid dots' or something similar.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We changed it to “points in blue/orange” on Lines 823.

      (7) L 176-176: unclear why the interaction parameters are particularly important for explaining the thermophilization mechanism: if e.g. colonization rate of warm-adapted species is constantly higher in less isolated islands, (and always higher than the extinction rate of the same species), it means that thermophilization is increased in less isolated islands, right?

      Thank you for this question. This is also related to the question about “Why use temporal trends in colonization/extinction rate to test for thermophilization mechanisms”. Colonization-extinction over time is actually a much stronger test of thermophilization (more details refer to response to Public Review and Recommendations 1&2).

      Based on this, the two main driving processes of thermophilization mechanism include the increasing colonization rate of warm-adapted species and the increasing extinction rate of cold-adapted species with year. The interaction effect between island area (or isolation) and year on colonization rate (or extinction rate) can tell us how habitat fragmentation mediates the year effect. For example, if the interaction term between year and isolation is negative for a warm-adapted species that increased in colonization rate with year, it indicates that the colonization rate increased faster on less isolated islands. This is a signal of a faster thermophilization rate on less-isolated islands.

      (8) L201-203: this is only little supported by the results that actually show that there is NO significant interaction for most species.

      Thank you for this comment. Although most species showed non-significant interaction effect, the overall trend is relatively consistent, this is especially true for the effect of isolation. To emphasize the “trend” instead of “significant effect”, we slightly modified this sentence in more rigorous wording on Lines 205-208: 

      “We further found that habitat fragmentation influences two processes of thermophilization: colonization rates of most warm-adapted species tended to increase faster on smaller and less isolated islands, while the loss rates of most cold-adapted species tended to be exacerbated on less isolated islands.”

      (9) Section 2.3: can't you have a population-level estimate? I struggled a bit to understand all the parameters of the MSOM (because of my lack of statistical/mathematical proficiency) so I cannot provide more advice here.

      Thank you for raising this advice. We think what you are mentioning is the overall estimate across all species for each variable. From MSOM, we can get a standardized estimate of every variable (year, area, isolation, interaction) for each species, separately. Because the divergent or consistent responses among species are what we are interested in, we didn’t calculate further to get a population-level estimate.

      (10) L 291: a dot is missing.

      Done. Thank you for your correction.

      (11) L 305, 315: a space is missing

      Done

      (12) L 332: how were these islands selected?

      Thank you for this question. The 36 islands were selected according to a gradient of island area and isolation, spreading across the whole lake region. The selected islands guaranteed there is no significant correlation between island area and isolation (the Pearson correlation coefficient r = -0.21, p = 0.21). The biggest 7 islands among the 36 islands are also the only several islands larger than 30 ha in the whole lake region. We have modified this in the Method part on Lines 360-363.

      “We selected 36 islands according to a gradient of island area and isolation with a guarantee of no significant correlation between island area and isolation (Pearson r = -0.21, p = 0.21). For each island, we calculated island area and isolation (measured in the nearest Euclidean distance to the mainland) to represent the degree of habitat fragmentation.”

      (13) L 334: "Distance to the mainland" was used as a metric of isolation, but elsewhere in the text you argue that the observed thermophilization is due to interisland movements. It sounds contradictory. Why not include the average or shortest distance to the other islands?

      Thank you very much for raising this comment. Yes, “Distance to the mainland” was the only metric we used for isolation. We carefully checked through the manuscript where the “interisland movement” comes from and induces the misunderstanding. It must come from Discussion 3.1 (n Lines 217-221): “Notably, when tested on the landscape scale (versus on individual island communities), only the abundance-based thermophilization trend was significant, indicating thermophilization of bird communities was mostly due to inter-island occurrence dynamics, rather than exogenous community turnover.”

      Sorry, the word “inter-island” is not exactly what we want to express here, we wanted to express that “the thermophilization was mostly due to occurrence dynamics within the region, rather than exogenous community turnover outside the region”. We have changed the sentence in Discussion part on Lines 217-221:

      “Notably, when tested on the landscape scale (versus on individual island communities), only the abundance-based thermophilization trend was significant, indicating thermophilization of bird communities was mostly due to occurrence dynamics within the region, rather than exogenous community turnover outside the region.”

      Besides, I would like to explain why we use distance to the mainland. We chose the distance to the mainland as a measure of isolation based on the results of a previous study. One study in our system provided evidence that the colonization rate and extinction rate of breeding bird species were best fitted using distance to the nearest mainland over other distance-based measures (distance to the nearest landmass, distance to the nearest bigger landmass)(Si et al., 2014). Besides, their results produced almost identical patterns of the relationship between isolation and colonization/extinction rate(Si et al., 2014). That’s why we only selected “Distance to the mainland” in our current analysis and we do find some consistent patterns as expected. The plants on all islands were cleared out about 60 years ago due to dam construction, with all bird species coming from the mainland as the original species pool through a process called “relaxation”. This may be the reason why distance to the nearest mainland is the best predictor.

      In Discussion part, we added the following discussion and talked about the other measures on Lines 292-299:

      “As a caveat, we only consider the distance to the nearest mainland as a measure of fragmentation, consistent with previous work in this system (Si et al., 2014), but we acknowledge that other distance-based metrics of isolation that incorporate inter-island connections could reveal additional insights on fragmentation effects. The spatial arrangement of islands, like the arrangement of habitat, can influence niche tracking of species (Fourcade et al., 2021). Future studies should take these metrics into account to thoroughly understand the influence of isolation and spatial arrangement of patches in mediating the effect of climate warming on species.”

      (14) L 347: you write 'relative' abundance but this measure is not relative to anything. Better write something like "we based our abundance estimate on the maximum number of individuals recorded across the nine annual surveys".

      Thank you for this suggestion, we have changed the sentence on Lines 377-379:

      “We based our abundance estimate on the maximum number of individuals recorded across the nine annual surveys.”

      (15) L 378: shouldn't the formula for CTIoccur be (equation in latex format):

      CTI{occur, j, t} =\frac{\sum_{i=1}^{N_{j,t}}STI_{i}}{N_{j,t}}

      Where Nj,t is the total number of species surveyed in the community j in year t

      Thank you very much for this careful check, we have revised it on Lines 415, 417:

      “where Nj,t is the total number of species surveyed in the community j in year t.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Line 76: "weakly"

      Done. Thank you for your correction.

      (2) Line 98: I suggest a change to this sentence: "For example, habitat fragmentation renders habitats to be too isolated to be colonized, causing sedentary butterflies to lag more behind climate warming in Britain than mobile ones"

      Thank you for this modification, we have changed it on Lines 99-101.

      (3) Line 101: remove either "higher" or "increasing"

      Done, we have removed “higher”. Thank you for this advice.

      (4) Line 102: "benefiting from near source of"

      Done.

      (5) Line 104: "emigrate"

      Done.

      (6) Introduction: I suggest making it more explicit what process you describe under the word "extinction". At first read, I thought you were only referring to the dieback of individuals, but you also included emigration as an extinction process. It also needs to be reworded in Fig 1 caption.

      Thank you for this suggestion. Yes, we can’t distinguish in our system between local extinction and emigration. The observed “extinction” of cold-adapted species over 10 years may involve two processes that usually occur in order: first “emigration” and then if can’t emigrate or withstand, “real local dieback”. It should also be included in the legend of Figure 1, as you said. We have modified the legend in Lines 780-781:

      “Note that extinction here may include both the emigration of species and then the local extinction of species.”

      There is also one part in the Discussion that mentions this on Lines 287-291: “While we cannot truly distinguish in our system between local extinction and emigration, we suspect that given two islands equal except in isolation, and if both lose suitability due to climate change, individuals can easily emigrate from the island nearer to the mainland, while individuals on the more isolated island would be more likely to be trapped in place until the species went locally extinct due to a lack of rescue”.

      (7) I also suggest differentiating habitat fragmentation (distances between islands) and habitat amount (area) as explained in Fahrig 2013 (Rethinking patch size and isolation effects: the habitat amount hypothesis) and her latter paper. This will help the reader what lies behind the general trend of fragmentation: fragmentation per se and habitat amount reduction.

      Thank you for this suggestion! Habitat fragmentation in this study involves both habitat loss and fragmentation per se. We now give a general definition of habitat fragmentation on Lines 61-63:

      “Habitat fragmentation, usually defined as the shifts of continuous habitat into spatially isolated and small patches (Fahrig, 2003), in particular, has been hypothesized to have interactive effects with climate change on community dynamics.”

      (8) Line 136: is the "+-" refers to the standard deviation or confidence interval, I suggest being explicit about it once at the start of the results.

      Thank you for reminding this. The "+-" refers to the standard deviation (SD). The modified sentence is now on Lines 135-139:

      “The number of species detected in surveys on each island across the study period averaged 13.37 ± 6.26 (mean ± SD) species, ranging from 2 to 40 species, with an observed gamma diversity of 60 species. The STI of all 60 birds averaged 19.94 ± 3.58 ℃ (mean ± SD) and ranged from 9.30 ℃ (Cuculus canorus) to 27.20 ℃ (Prinia inornate), with a median of STI is 20.63 ℃ (Appendix 1—figure 2; Appendix 1—figure 3).”

      (9) Line 143: please specify the unit of thermophilization.

      The unit of thermophilization rate is the change in degree per unit year. Because in all analyses, predictor variables were z-transformed to make their effect comparable. We have added on Line 151:

      “When measuring CTI trends for individual islands (expressed as °/ unit year)”

      (10) Line 289: check if no word is missing from the sentence.

      The sentence is: “In our study, a large proportion (11 out of 15) of warm-adapted species increasing in colonization rate and half (12 out of 23) of cold-adapted species increasing in extinction rate were changing more rapidly on smaller islands.”

      Given that we have defined the species that were included in testing the third prediction in both Methods part and Result part: 15 warm-adapted species that increased in colonization rate and 23 cold-adapted species that increased in extinction rate. We now remove this redundant information and rewrote the sentence as below on Lines 300-302:

      “In our study, the colonization rate of a large proportion of warm-adapted species (11 out of 15) and the extinction rate of half of old-adapted species (12 out of 23) were increasing more rapidly on smaller islands.”

      (11) Line 319: I really miss a concluding statement of your discussion, your results are truly interesting and deserve to be summarized in two or three sentences, and maybe a perspective about how it can inform conservation practices in fragmented settings.

      Thank you for this profound suggestion both in Public Review and here. We have added a paragraph to the end of the Discussion, stating how our results can inform conservation, on Lines 339-347:

      “Overall, our findings have important implications for conservation practices. Firstly, we confirmed the role of isolation in limiting range shifting. Better connected landscapes should be developed to remove dispersal constraints and facilitate species’ relocation to the best suitable microclimate. Second, small patches can foster the establishment of newly adapted warm-adapted species while large patches can act as refugia for cold-adapted species. Therefore, preserving patches of diverse sizes can act as stepping stones or shelters in a warming climate depending on the thermal affinity of species. These insights are important supplement to the previous emphasis on the role of habitat diversity in fostering (Richard et al., 2021) or reducing (Gaüzère et al., 2017) community-level climate debt.”

      (12) Line 335: I suggest " ... the islands has been protected by forbidding logging, ..."

      Thanks for this wonderful suggestion. Done. The new sentence is now on Lines 365-366:

      “Since lake formation, the islands have been protected by forbidding logging, allowing natural succession pathways to occur.”

      (13) Line 345: this speed is unusually high for walking, check the speed.

      Sorry for the carelessness, it should be 2.0 km/h. It has been corrected on Lines 375-376:

      “In each survey, observers walked along each transect at a constant speed (2.0 km/h) and recorded all the birds seen or heard on the survey islands.”

      (14) Line 351: you could add a sentence explaining why that choice of species exclusion was made. Was made from the start of the monitoring program or did you exclude species afterward?

      We excluded them afterward. We excluded non-breeding species, nocturnal and crepuscular species, high-flying species passing over the islands (e.g., raptors, swallows) and strongly water-associated birds (e.g., cormorants). These records were recorded during monitoring, including some of them being on the shore of the island or high-flying above the island, and some nocturnal species were just spotted by accident.

      We described more details about how to exclude species on Lines 379-387:

      “We excluded non-breeding species, nocturnal and crepuscular species, high-flying species passing over the islands (e.g., raptors, swallows) and strongly water-associated birds (e.g., cormorants) from our record. First, our surveys were conducted during the day, so some nocturnal and crepuscular species, such as the owls and nightjars were excluded for inadequate survey design. Second, wagtail, kingfisher, and water birds such as ducks and herons were excluded because we were only interested in forest birds. Third, birds like swallows, and eagles who were usually flying or soaring in the air rather than staying on islands, were also excluded as it was difficult to determine their definite belonging islands. Following these operations, 60 species were finally retained.”

      (15) Line 370: I suggest adding the range and median of STI.

      Thanks for this good suggestion. The range, mean±SD of STI were already in the Results part, we added the median of STI there as well. The new sentence is now in Results part on Lines 137-139:

      “The STI of all 60 birds averaged 19.94 ± 3.58 ℃ (mean ± SD) and ranged from 9.30 ℃ (Cuculus canorus) to 27.20 ℃ (Prinia inornate), with a median of 20.63 ℃ (Appendix 1—figure 2; Appendix 1—figure 3).”

      (16) Figure 4.b: Is it possible to be more explicit about what that trend is? the coefficient of the regression Logit(ext/col) ~ year + ...... ?

      Thank you for this advice. Your understanding is right: we can interpret it as the coefficient of the ‘year’ effect in the model. More specifically, the ‘year’ effect or temporal trend here is the ‘posterior mean’ of the posterior distribution of ‘year’ in the MSOM (Multi-species Occupancy Model), in the context of the Bayesian framework. We modified this sentence on Lines 811-813:

      “ Each point in (b) represents the posterior mean estimate of year in colonization, extinction or occupancy rate for each species.”

      (17) Figure 6: is it possible to provide an easily understandable meaning of the prior presented in the Y axis? E.g. "2 corresponds to a 90% probability for a species to go extinct at T+1", if not, please specify that it is the logit of a probability.

      Thank you for this question both in Public Review and here. The value on the Y axis indicates the posterior mean of each variable (year, area, isolation and their interaction effects) extracted from the MSOM model, where the logit(extinction rate) or logit(colonization rate) was the response variable. All variables were standardized before analysis to make them comparable. So, positive values indicate positive influence while negative values indicate negative influence. Because the goal of Figure 6 is to display the negative/positive effect, we didn’t back-transform them. Following your advice, we thus modified the caption of Figure 6 (now renumbered as Figure 5, following a comment from Reviewer #3, to move Figure 5 to Figure 4c). The modified title and legends of Figure 5 are on Lines 817-820:

      “Figure 5. Posterior estimates of logit-scale parameters related to cold-adapted species’ extinction rates and warm-adapted species’ colonization rates. Points are species-specific posterior means on the logit-scale, where parameters >0 indicate positive effects (on extinction [a] or colonization [b]) and parameters <0 indicate negative effects.”

      (18) Line 773: points in blue only are significant? I suggest "points in color".

      Thank you for your reminder. Points in blue and orange are all significant. We have revised the sentence on Line 823:

      “Points in blue/orange indicate significant effects.”

      These are all small suggestions that may help you improve the readability of the final manuscript. I warmly thank you for the opportunity to review this impressive study.

      We appreciate your careful review and profound suggestions. We believe these modifications will improve the final manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have a few minor suggestions for paper revision for your otherwise excellent manuscript. I wish to emphasize that it was a pleasure to read the manuscript and that I especially enjoyed a very nice flow throughout the ms from a nicely rounded introduction that led well into the research questions and hypotheses all the way to a good and solid discussion.

      Thank you very much for your review and recognition. We have carefully checked all recommendations and addressed them in the manuscript.

      (1) L 63: space before the bracket missing and I suggest moving the reference to the end of the sentence (directly after habitat fragmentation does not seem to make sense).

      Thank you very much for this suggestion. The missed space was added, and the reference has been moved to the end of the sentence. We also add a general definition of habitat fragmentation. The new sentence is on Lines 61-64:

      “Habitat fragmentation, usually defined as the shifts of continuous habitat into spatially isolated and small patches (Fahrig, 2003), in particular, has been hypothesized to have interactive effects with climate change on community dynamics.”

      (2) L 102: I suggest to write "benefitting ..." instead.

      Done.

      (3) L 103: higher extinction rates (add "s").

      Done.

      (4) L 104: this should probably say "emigrate" and "climate warming".

      Done.

      (5) L 130-133: this is true for emigration (more isolated islands show slower emigration). But what about increased local extinction, especially for small and isolated islands? Especially since you mentioned later in the manuscript that often emigration and extinction are difficult to identify or differentiate. Might be worth a thought here or somewhere in the discussion?

      Thank you for this good question. I would like to answer it in two aspects:

      Yes, we can’t distinguish between true local extinction and emigration. The observed local “extinction” of cold-adapted species over 10 years may involve two processes that usually occur in order: first “emigration” and then, if can’t emigrate or withstand, “real local dieback”. Over 10 years, the cold-adapted species would have to tolerate before real extinction on remote islands because of disperse limitation, while on less isolated islands it would be easy to emigrate and find a more suitable habitat for the same species. Consequently, it’s harder for us to observe “extinction” of species on more isolated islands, while it’s easier to observe “fake extinct” of species on less isolated islands due to emigration. As a result, the observed extinction rate is expected to increase more sharply for species on less remote islands, while the observed extinction rate is expected to increase relatively moderately for the same species on remote islands.

      We have modified the legend of Figure 1 on Lines 780-781:

      “Note that extinction here may include both the emigration of species and then the local extinction of species.”

      There is also one part in the Discussion that mentions this on Lines 287-291: “While we cannot truly distinguish in our system between local extinction and emigration, we suspect that given two islands equal except in isolation, if both lose suitability due to climate change, individuals can easily emigrate from the island nearer to the mainland, while individuals on the more isolated island would be more likely to be trapped in place until the species went locally extinct due to a lack of rescue”.

      Besides, you said “But what about increased local extinction, especially for small and isolated islands?”, I think you are mentioning the “high extinction rate per se on remote islands”. We want to test the “trend” of extinction rate on a temporal scale, rather than the extinction rate per se on a spatial scale. Even though species have a high extinction rate on remote islands, it can also show a slower changing rate in time.

      I hope these answers solve the problem.

      (6) L 245: I think this is the first time the acronym appears in the ms (as the methods come after the discussion), so please write the full name here too.

      Thank you for pointing out this. I realized “Thousand Island Lake” appears for the first time in the last paragraph of the Introduction part. So we add “TIL” there on Lines 108-109:

      “Here, we use 10 years of bird community data in a subtropical land-bridge island system (Thousand Island Lake, TIL, China, Figure 2) during a period of consistent climatic warming.”

      (7) L 319: this section could end with a summary statement on idiosyncratic responses (i.e. some variation in the responses you found among the species) and the potential reasons for this, such as e.g. the role of other species traits or interactions, as well as other ways to measure habitat fragmentation (see main comments in public review).

      Thank you for this suggestion both in Public Review and here. We added a summary statement about the reasons for idiosyncratic responses on Lines 334-338:

      “Overall, these idiosyncratic responses reveal several possible mechanisms in regulating species' climate responses, including resource demands and biological interactions like competition and predation. Future studies are needed to take these factors into account to understand the complex mechanisms by which habitat loss meditates species range shifts.”

      We only strengthen “habitat loss” here, because idiosyncratic responses mainly come from the mediating effect of habitat loss. For the mediating effect of isolation, the response is relatively consistent (see Page 8, Lines 183-188): “In particular, the effect of isolation on temporal dynamics of thermophilization was relatively consistent across cold- and warm-adapted species (Figure 5a, b); specifically, on islands nearer to the mainland, warm-adapted species (15 out of 15 investigated species) increased their colonization probability at a higher rate over time, while most cold-adapted species (21 out of 23 species) increased their extinction probability at a higher rate”.

      (8) L 333: what about the distance to other islands? it's more of a network than a island-mainland directional system (Figure 2). You could address this aspect in the discussion.

      Thank you for this good question again. Isolation can be measured in different ways in the study region. We chose distance to the mainland because it was the best predictor of colonization and extinction rate of breeding birds in the study region, and produced similar results like the other distance-based measures, including distance to the nearest landmass, distance to the nearest larger landmass (Si et al., 2014). We still agree with you that it’s necessary to consider more aspects of “isolation” at least in discussion for future research. In Discussion part, we addressed these on Lines 292-299. For more details refer to the response to Public Review.

      (9) Figure 2: Is B1 one of the sampled islands? It is clearly much larger than most other islands and I think it could thus serve as an important population source for many of the adjacent smaller islands? Thus, the nearest neighbor distance to B1 could be as important in addition to the distance to the mainland?

      Yes, B1 is one of the sampled islands and is also the biggest island. In previous research in our study system, we tried distance to the nearest landmass, to the nearest larger landmass and the nearest mainland, they produced similar results (For more details refer to the response to Public Review). We agree with you that the nearest neighbor distance to B1 could be a potentially important measure, but need further research. In our Discussion, we address these on Lines 292-299:

      “As a caveat, we only consider the distance to the nearest mainland as a measure of fragmentation, consistent with previous work in this system (Si et al., 2014), but we acknowledge that other distance-based metrics of isolation that incorporate inter-island connections could reveal additional insights on fragmentation effects. The spatial arrangement of islands, like the arrangement of habitat, can influence niche tracking of species (Fourcade et al., 2021). Future studies should take these metrics into account to thoroughly understand the influence of isolation and spatial arrangement of patches in mediating the effect of climate warming on species.”

      (10) L 345: 20km/h walking seems impressively fast? I assume this is a typo.

      Sorry for the carelessness, it should be 2.0 km/h. it has been corrected on Lines 375-376:

      “In each survey, observers walked along each transect at a constant speed (2.0 km/h) and recorded all the birds seen or heard on the survey islands.”

      (11) L 485: I had difficulties fully understanding the models that were fitted here and could not find them in the codes you provided (which were otherwise very well documented!). Could you explain this modeling step in a bit more detail?

      Thank you for your recognition! According to Line 485 in the online PDF version (Methods part 4.6.3), it says: “An increasing colonization trend of warm-adapted species and increasing extinction trend of cold-adapted species are two main expected processes that cause thermophilization (Fourcade et al., 2021). To test our third prediction about the mediating effect of habitat fragmentation, we selected warm-adapted species that had an increasing trend in colonization rate (positive year effect in colonization rate) and cold-adapted species that had an increasing extinction rate (positive year effect in extinction rate)…..”

      We carefully checked the code in Figshare link and found that the MOSM JAGS code was not uploaded before. Very sorry for that. Now it can be found in the document [MOSM.R] at https://figshare.com/s/7a16974114262d280ef7. Hope the code, together with the modeling process in section 4.5 in the Methods can help to understand the whole modeling process. Besides, we would like to explain how to decide the temporal trend in colonization or extinction of each species related to Line 485. Let’s take the model of species-specific extinction rate for example:

      In this model, “Island” was a random effect, “Year” is added as a random slope, thus allowing “year effect” (that is: the temporal trend) of extinction rate of species to vary with “island”. Further, the interaction effect between island variables (isolation, area) was added to test if the “year effect” was related to island area or isolation.

      Because we are only interested in warm-adapted species that have a positive temporal trend in colonization and cold-adapted species that have a positive temporal trend in extinction, which are two main processes underlying thermophilizaiton, we choose warm-adapted species that have a positive year-effect in colonization, and cold-adapted species that has a positive year-effect in extinction. Hope this explanation and the JAGS code can help if you are confused about this part.

      Hope these explanations can make it clearer.

      (12) Figure 1: to me, it would be more intuitive to put the landscape configuration in the titles of the panels b, c, and d instead of "only" the mechanisms. E.g. they could be: a) fragmented islands with low climate buffering; b) small islands with low habitat heterogeneity; c) isolated islands with dispersal limitations?

      It is also slightly confusing that the bird communities are above "island" in the middle of the three fragmented habitats - which all look a bit different in terms of tree species and structure which makes the reader first think that it has something to do with the "new" species community. so maybe worth rethinking how to illustrate the three fragmented islands?

      We would like to thank you for your nice proposition. Firstly, it’s a good idea to put the landscape configuration in the title of the panels b, c, d. The new title (a) is “Fragmented islands with low climate buffering”, title (b) is “Small islands with low habitat heterogeneity”, and title (c) is “Isolated patches with dispersal limitations”.

      Second, we realized that putting the “bird community” above “island” in the middle of the three patches is a bit confusing. Actually, we wanted to show bird communities only on that one island in the middle. The other two patches are only there to represent a fragmented background. To avoid misunderstanding, we added a sentence in the legend of Figure 1 on Lines 778-780:

      “The three distinct patches signify a fragmented background and the community in the middle of the three patches was selected to exhibit colonization-extinction dynamics in fragmented habitats.”

      (13) Figure 4: please add the description of the color code for panel a.

      Sorry for the unclear description. The vertical dashed line indicates the median value of STI for 60 species, as a separation of warm-adapted species and cold-adapted species. We have added these details on Lines 807-809:

      “The dotted vertical line indicates the median of STI values. Cold-adapted species are plotted in blue and warm-adapted species are plotted in orange.”

      (14) Figure 5: You could consider adding this as panel c to Figure 4 as it depicts the same thing as in 4a but for CTI-abundance.

      Thank you for this advice. We have moved the original Figure 5 to Figure 4c. Previous Figure 6 thus turned into Figure 5. All corresponding citations in the main text were checked to adapt to the new index. The new figure is now on Lines 801-815:

      References

      Ferraz, G., Russell, G. J., Stouffer, P. C., Bierregaard Jr, R. O., Pimm, S. L., & Lovejoy, T. E. (2003). Rates of species loss from Amazonian forest fragments. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 100(24), 14069-14073. doi:10.1073/pnas.2336195100

      Fourcade, Y., WallisDeVries, M. F., Kuussaari, M., van Swaay, C. A., Heliölä, J., & Öckinger, E. (2021). Habitat amount and distribution modify community dynamics under climate change. Ecology Letters, 24(5), 950-957. doi:10.1111/ele.13691

      Gaüzère, P., Princé, K., & Devictor, V. (2017). Where do they go? The effects of topography and habitat diversity on reducing climatic debt in birds. Global Change Biology, 23(6), 2218-2229. doi:10.1111/gcb.13500

      Gonzalez, A. (2000). Community relaxation in fragmented landscapes: the relation between species richness, area and age. Ecology Letters, 3(5), 441-448. doi:10.1046/j.1461-0248.2000.00171.x

      Haddad, N. M., Brudvig, L. A., Clobert, J., Davies, K. F., Gonzalez, A., Holt, R. D., . . . Collins, C. D. (2015). Habitat fragmentation and its lasting impact on Earth’s ecosystems. Science advances, 1(2), e1500052. doi:10.1126/sciadv.1500052

      Richard, B., Dupouey, J. l., Corcket, E., Alard, D., Archaux, F., Aubert, M., . . . Macé, S. (2021). The climatic debt is growing in the understorey of temperate forests: Stand characteristics matter. Global Ecology and Biogeography, 30(7), 1474-1487. doi:10.1111/geb.13312

      Si, X., Pimm, S. L., Russell, G. J., & Ding, P. (2014). Turnover of breeding bird communities on islands in an inundated lake. Journal of Biogeography, 41(12), 2283-2292. doi:10.1111/jbi.12379

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary and Strengths:

      The ability of Wolbachia to be transmitted horizontally during parasitoid wasp infections is supported by phylogenetic data here and elsewhere. Experimental analyses have shown evidence of wasp-to-wasp transmission during coinfection (eg Huigins et al), host to wasp transmission (eg Heath et al), and mechanical ('dirty needle') transmission from host to host (Ahmed et al). To my knowledge this manuscript provides the first experimental evidence of wasp to host transmission. Given the strong phylogenetic pattern of host-parasitoid Wolbachia sharing, this may be of general importance in explaining the distribution of Wolbachia across arthropods. This is of interest as Wolbachia is extremely common in the natural world and influences many aspects of host biology.

      Weaknesses:

      The first observation of the manuscript is that the Wolbachia strains in hosts are more closely related to those in their parasitoids. This has been reported on multiple occasions before, dating back to the late 1990s. The introduction cites five such papers (the observation is made in other studies too that could be cited) but then dismisses them by stating "However, without quantitative tests, this observation could simply reflect a bias in research focus." As these studies include carefully collected datasets that were analysed appropriately, I felt this claim of novelty was rather strong. It is unclear why downloading every sequence in GenBank avoids any perceived biases, when presumably the authors are reanalysing the data in these papers.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. In this study, we downloaded all wsp sequences from GenBank and conducted a systematic analysis. We acknowledge that there could still be a bias in research focus, but a systematic analysis, compared to a limited dataset, may reduce this bias. We agree with the reviewer's point, and we have revised this statement to make it more accurate. Now the new sentence reads: "However, there is still a lack of systematic statistical analyses to support this hypothesis." (Lines 69–70 in the revised manuscript)

      I do not doubt the observation that host-parasitoid pairs tend to share related Wolbachia, as it is corroborated by other studies, the effect size is large, and the case study of whitefly is clearcut. It is also novel to do this analysis on such a large dataset. However, the statistical analysis used is incorrect as the observations are pseudo-replicated due to phylogenetic non-independence. When analysing comparative data like this it is essential to correct for the confounding effects of related species tending to be similar due to common ancestry. In this case, it is well-known that this is an issue as it is a repeated observation that related hosts are infected by related Wolbachia. However, the authors treat every pairwise combination of species (nearly a million pairs) as an independent observation. Addressing this issue is made more complex because there are both the host and symbiont trees to consider. The additional analysis in lines 123-124 (including shuffling species pairs) does not explicitly address this issue.

      We agree with your point about the non-independence of data due to phylogenetic relationships. In the analysis of species traits, a conventional phylogenetic correction assumes that traits follow a Brownian motion model (Felsenstein, 1985). The variance of the trait values for a species i is given by:

      Var[Yi]=σ2Ti,

      Where Ti represents the time from the root to the tip for species i. Consequently, the covariance between traits of species i and j is:

      Cov[Yij,Yj]=σ<sup>2</sup>Tii,

      where Tij is the time from the root to the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of species i and j. Linear model analysis incorporates the covariance matrix to correct for the effects of non-independence. Mathematically, this method is equivalent to the independent contrasts approach (Felsenstein, 1985).

      In our analysis, we treat the minimum interspecific wsp distance between two species as a trait for the species pair (i, j). Similarly, for any two pairs of species (i, j) and (k, l), we postulate that the covariance between their traits is given by:

      Cov[Y<sub>ij</sub>,Y<sub>kl</sub>]=σ2⋅(T<sub>ik</sub>+T<sub>jl</sub>),

      where Tik denotes the time from the root to the MRCA of species i and k, and Tjl represents the time from the root to the MRCA of species j and l. This covariance matrix is then incorporated into our linear model analysis to account for the effects of phylogenetic non-independence.

      However, when extending trait analysis to pairs of species, the computational demands increase substantially. For instance, with a dataset of 1,377 species, forming all possible pairs yields 947,376 unique species combinations. Consequently, constructing a covariance matrix for these pairs would necessitate storing 897,521,285,376 entries, a requirement that far exceeds the memory capabilities of standard computing systems.

      To address this, we randomly sampled 1,000 pairs from the total of 947,376 species pairs within the 'Others' category, thereby reducing the computational load without compromising the representativeness of our analysis. Ultimately, even after accounting for phylogenetic correction using covariance, the effect of parasitism remains highly significant (p < 0.0001).

      We have added a “Phylogenetic correction” section to Materials and Methods (Lines 392–405 in the revised manuscript). The corresponding results are described on lines 120–121 and in supplementary Note 1. The data and scripts for this analysis are available at https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.24718119.

      REFERENCE

      Felsenstein J, 1985. Phylogenies and the comparative method. The American Naturalist, 125(1), 1-15.

      The sharing of Wolbachia between whitefly and their parasitoids is very striking, although this has been reported before (eg the authors recently published a paper entitled "Diversity and Phylogenetic Analyses Reveal Horizontal Transmission of Endosymbionts Between Whiteflies and Their Parasitoids"). In Lines 154-164 it is suggested that from the tree the direction of transfer between host and parasitoid can be inferred from the data. This is not obvious to me given the poor resolution of the tree due to low sequence divergence. There are established statistical approaches to test the direction of trait changes on a tree that could have been used (a common approach is to use the software BEAST).

      We thank the reviewer for this constructive feedback on our interpretation of Wolbachia transfer between whiteflies and their parasitoids. Inspired by the reviewer's comments, we have now incorporated a trait-based approach, using the taxonomic order of the source species of the wsp gene as a discrete trait for ancestral state reconstruction on the wsp tree. The estimated ancestral trait state for one clade, which clusters wsp sequences from whiteflies and parasitoids, is Hymenoptera, suggesting that within this clade, the direction of Wolbachia transfer may have been from parasitoids to hosts. Conversely, in another clade characterized by the ancestral trait state of Hemiptera, the inferred direction of transfer appears to be from hosts to parasitoids. We have added a “Ancestral state reconstruction” section to Materials and Methods (Lines 406–412 in the revised manuscript). The corresponding results are described on lines 159–163 and 167–168. The data and script for this analysis is available at https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.24718119.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The paper by Yan et al. aims to provide evidence for horizontal transmission of the intracellular bacterial symbiont Wolbachia from parasitoid wasps to their whitefly hosts. In my opinion, the paper in its current form consists of major flaws.

      Weaknesses:

      The dogma in the field is that although horizontal transmission events of Wolbachia occur, in most systems they are so rare that the chances of observing them in the lab are very slim.

      For the idea of bacteria moving from a parasitoid to its host, the authors have rightfully cited the paper by Hughes, et al. (2001), which presents the main arguments against the possibility of documenting such transmissions. Thus, if the authors want to provide data that contradict the large volume of evidence showing the opposite, they should present a very strong case.

      In my opinion, the paper fails to provide such concrete evidence. Moreover, it seems the work presented does not meet the basic scientific standards.

      We are grateful for your critical perspective on our work. Nonetheless, we are confident in the credibility of our findings regarding the horizontal transmission of Wolbachia from En. formosa to B. tabaci. Our study has documented this phenomenon through phylogenetic tree analyses, and we have further substantiated our observations with rigorous experiments in both cages and petri dishes. The horizontal transfer of Wolbachia was confirmed via PCR, with the wsp sequences in B. tabaci showing complete concordance with those in En. formosa. Additionally, we utilized FISH, vertical transmission experiments, and phenotypic assays to demonstrate that the transferred Wolbachia could be vertically transmitted and induce significant fitness cost in B. tabaci. All experiments were conducted with strict negative controls and a sufficient number of replicates to ensure reliability, thereby meeting basic scientific standards. The collective evidence we present points to a definitive case of Wolbachia transmission from the parasitoid En. formosa to the whitefly B. tabaci.

      My main reservations are:

      - I think the distribution pattern of bacteria stained by the probes in the FISH pictures presented in Figure 4 looks very much like Portiera, the primary symbiont found in the bacterium of all whitefly species. In order to make a strong case, the authors need to include Portiera probes along with the Wolbachia ones.

      We thank you for your critical evaluation regarding the specificity of FISH in our study. We assure the reliability of our FISH results based on several reasons.

      (1) We implemented rigorous negative controls which exhibited no detectable signal, thereby affirming the specificity of our hybridization. (2) The central region of the whitefly nymphs is a typical oviposition site for En. formosa. Post-parasitism, we observed FISH signals around the introduced parasitoid eggs, distinct from bacteriocyte cells which are rich in endosymbionts including Portiera (Fig 3e-f). This observation supports the high specificity of our FISH method. (3) In the G3 whiteflies, we detected the presence of Wolbachia in bacteriocytes in nymphs and at the posterior end of eggs in adult females (Fig. 4). This distribution pattern aligns with previously reported localizations of Wolbachia in B. tabaci (Shi et al., 2016; Skaljac et al., 2013). Furthermore, the distribution of Wolbachia in the whiteflies does indeed exhibit some overlap with that of Portiera (Skaljac et al., 2013; Bing et al., 2014). 4) The primers used in our FISH assays have been widely cited (Heddi et al., 1999) and validated in studies on B. tabaci and other systems (Guo et al., 2018; Hegde et al., 2024; Krafsur et al., 2020; Rasgon et al., 2006; Uribe-Alvarez et al., 2019; Zhao et al., 2013).

      Taking all these points into consideration, we stand by the reliability of our FISH results.

      REFERENCES

      Bing XL, Xia WQ, Gui JD, et al., 2014. Diversity and evolution of the Wolbachia endosymbionts of Bemisia (Hemiptera: Aleyrodidae) whiteflies. Ecol Evol, 4(13):2714-37.

      Guo Y, Hoffmann AA, Xu XQ, et al., 2018. Wolbachia-induced apoptosis associated with increased fecundity in Laodelphax striatellus (Hemiptera: Delphacidae). Insect Mol Biol, 27:796-807.

      Heddi A, Grenier AM, Khatchadourian C, Charles H, Nardon P, 1999. Four intracellular genomes direct weevil biology: nuclear, mitochondrial, principal endosymbiont, and Wolbachia. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA, 96:6814-6819.

      Hegde S, Marriott AE, Pionnier N, et al., 2024. Combinations of the azaquinazoline anti-Wolbachia agent, AWZ1066S, with benzimidazole anthelmintics synergise to mediate sub-seven-day sterilising and curative efficacies in experimental models of filariasis. Front Microbiol, 15:1346068.

      Krafsur AM, Ghosh A, Brelsfoard CL, 2020. Phenotypic response of Wolbachia pipientis in a cell-free medium. Microorganisms, 8.

      Rasgon JL, Gamston CE, Ren X, 2006. Survival of Wolbachia pipientis in cell-free medium. Appl Environ Microbiol, 72:6934-6937.

      Shi P, He Z, Li S, et al., 2016. Wolbachia has two different localization patterns in whitefly Bemisia tabaci AsiaII7 species. PLoS One, 11: e0162558.

      Skaljac M, Zanić K, Hrnčić S, et al., 2013. Diversity and localization of bacterial symbionts in three whitefly species (Hemiptera: Aleyrodidae) from the east coast of the Adriatic Sea. Bull Entomol Res, 103(1):48-59.

      Uribe-Alvarez C, Chiquete-Félix N, Morales-García L, et al., 2019. Wolbachia pipientis grows in Saccharomyces cerevisiae evoking early death of the host and deregulation of mitochondrial metabolism. MicrobiologyOpen, 8: e00675.

      Zhao DX, Zhang XF, Chen DS, Zhang YK, Hong XY, 2013. Wolbachia-host interactions: Host mating patterns affect Wolbachia density dynamics. PLoS One, 8: e66373.

      - If I understand the methods correctly, the phylogeny presented in Figure 2a is supposed to be based on a wide search for Wolbachia wsp gene done on the NCBI dataset (p. 348). However, when I checked the origin of some of the sequences used in the tree to show the similarity of Wolbachia between Bemisia tabaci and its parasitoids, I found that most of them were deposited by the authors themselves in the course of the current study (I could not find this mentioned in the text), or originated in a couple of papers that in my opinion should not have been published to begin with.

      We appreciate your meticulous examination of the sources for our sequence data. All the sequences included in our phylogenetic analysis were indeed downloaded from the NCBI database as of July 2023. The sequences used to illustrate the similarity of Wolbachia between B. tabaci and its parasitoids include those from our previously published study (Qi et al., 2019), which were sequenced from field samples. Additionally, some sequences were also obtained from other laboratories (Ahmed et al., 2009; Baldo et al., 2006; Van Meer et al., 1999). We acknowledge that in our prior research (Qi et al., 2019), the sequences were directly submitted to NCBI and, regrettably, we did not update the corresponding publication information after the article were published. It is not uncommon for sequences on NCBI, with some never being followed by a published paper (e.g., FJ710487- FJ710511 and JF426137-JF426149), or not having their associated publication details updated post-publication (for instance, sequences MH918776-MH918794 from Qi et al., 2019, and KF017873-KF017878 from Fattah-Hosseini et al., 2018). We recognize that this practice can lead to confusion and apologize for the oversight in our work.

      REFERENCES

      Ahmed MZ, Shatters RG, Ren SX, Jin GH, Mandour NS, Qiu BL, 2009. Genetic distinctions among the Mediterranean and Chinese populations of Bemisia tabaci Q biotype and their endosymbiont Wolbachia populations. J Appl Entomol, 133:733-741.

      Baldo L, Dunning Hotopp JC, Jolley KA, et al., 2006. Multilocus sequence typing system for the endosymbiont Wolbachia pipientis. Appl Environ Microbiol. 72(11):7098-110.

      Fattah-Hosseini S, Karimi J, Allahyari H, 2014. Molecular characterization of Iranian Encarsia formosa Gahan populations with natural incidence of Wolbachia infection. J Entomol Res Soc, 20(1):85–100.

      Qi LD, Sun JT, Hong XY, Li YX, 2019. Diversity and phylogenetic analyses reveal horizontal transmission of endosymbionts between whiteflies and their parasitoids. J Econ Entomol, 112(2):894-905.

      Van Meer MM, Witteveldt J, Stouthamer R, 1999. Phylogeny of the arthropod endosymbiont Wolbachia based on the wsp gene. Insect Mol Biol, 8(3):399-408.

      - The authors fail to discuss or even acknowledge a number of published studies that specifically show no horizontal transmission, such as the one claimed to be detected in the study presented.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have made corresponding modifications to the discussion section (Lines 256271 in the revised manuscript) and have discussed the published studies that report no evidence of horizontal transmission (Lines 260263 in the revised manuscript). The added sentences read: “Experimental confirmations of Wolbachia horizontal transfer remain relatively rare, with only a limited number of documented cases (24, 27, 37, 38). Additionally, some experiments have found no evidence of horizontal transmission of Wolbachia (39-42).” (Lines 260263 in the revised manuscript)

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This is a very ordinary research paper. The horizontal of endosymbionts, including Wolbachia, Rickettsia etc. has been reported in detail in the last 10 years, and parasitoid vectored as well as plant vectored horizontal transmission is the mainstream of research. For example, Ahmed et al. 2013 PLoS One, 2015 PLoS Pathogens, Chiel et al. 2014 Enviromental Entomology, Ahmed et al. 2016 BMC Evolution Biology, Qi et al. 2019 JEE, Liu et al. 2023 Frontiers in Cellular and Infection Microbiology, all of these reported the parasitoid vectored horizontal transmission of endosymbiont. While Caspi-Fluger et al. 2012 Proc Roy Soc B, Chrostek et al. 2017 Frontiers in Microbiology, Li et al. 2017 ISME Journal, Li et al. 2017 FEMS, Shi et al. 2024 mBio, all of these reported the plant vectored horizontal transmission of endosymbiont. For the effects of endosymbiont on the biology of the host, Ahmed et al. 2015 PLoS Pathogens explained the effects in detail.

      Thank you for the insightful comments and for highlighting the relevant literature in the field of horizontal transmission of endosymbionts, including Wolbachia and Rickettsia. After careful consideration of the studies mentioned in the commences, we believe that our work presents significant novel contributions to the field. 1) Regarding the parasitoid-mediated horizontal transmission of Wolbachia, most of the cited articles, such as Ahmed et al. 2013 in PLoS One and Ahmed et al. 2016 in BMC Evolutionary Biology, propose hypotheses but do not provide definitive evidence. The transmission of Wolbachia within the whitefly cryptic species complex (Ahmed et al. 2013) or between moths and butterflies (Ahmed et al. 2016) could be mediated by parasitoids, plants, or other unknown pathways. 2) Chiel et al. 2014 in Environmental Entomology reported “no evidence for horizontal transmission of Wolbachia between and within trophic levels” in their study system. 3) The literature you mentioned about Rickettsia, rather than Wolbachia, indirectly reflects the relative scarcity of evidence for Wolbachia horizontal transmission. For example, the evidence for plant-mediated transmission of Wolbachia remains isolated, with Li et al. 2017 in the ISME Journal being one of the few reports supporting this mode of transmission. 4) While the effects of endosymbionts on their hosts are not the central focus of our study, the effects of transgenerational Wolbachia on whiteflies are primarily demonstrated to confirm the infection of Wolbachia into whiteflies. Furthermore, the effects we report of Wolbachia on whiteflies are notably different from those reported by Ahmed et al. 2015 in PLoS Pathogens, likely due to different whitefly species and Wolbachia strains. 6) More importantly, our study reveals a mechanism of parasitoid-mediated horizontal transmission of Wolbachia that is distinct from the mechanical transmission suggested by Ahmed et al. 2015 in PLoS Pathogens. Their study implies transmission primarily through dirty needle, without Wolbachia infection of the parasitoid, suggesting host-to-host transmission at the same trophic level, where parasitoids serve as phoretic vectors. In contrast, our findings demonstrate transmission from parasitoids to hosts through unsuccessful parasitism, which represents cross-trophic level transmission. To our knowledge, this is the first experimental evidence that Wolbachia can be transmitted from parasitoids to hosts. We believe these clarifications and the novel insights provided by our research contribute valuable knowledge to the field.

      REFERENCES

      Ahmed MZ, De Barro PJ, Ren SX, Greeff JM, Qiu BL, 2013. Evidence for horizontal transmission of secondary endosymbionts in the Bemisia tabaci cryptic species complex. PLoS One, 8(1):e53084.

      Ahmed MZ, Li SJ, Xue X, Yin XJ, Ren SX, Jiggins FM, Greeff JM, Qiu BL, 2015. The intracellular bacterium Wolbachia uses parasitoid wasps as phoretic vectors for efficient horizontal transmission. PLoS Pathog, 10(2):e1004672.

      Ahmed MZ, Breinholt JW, Kawahara AY, 2016. Evidence for common horizontal transmission of Wolbachia among butterflies and moths. BMC Evol Biol, 16(1):118.

      Caspi-Fluger A, Inbar M, Mozes-Daube N, Katzir N, Portnoy V, Belausov E, Hunter MS, Zchori-Fein E, 2012. Horizontal transmission of the insect symbiont Rickettsia is plant-mediated. Proc Biol Sci, 279(1734):1791-6.

      Chiel E, Kelly SE, Harris AM, Gebiola M, Li X, Zchori-Fein E, Hunter MS, 2014. Characteristics, phenotype, and transmission of Wolbachia in the sweet potato whitefly, Bemisia tabaci (Hemiptera: Aleyrodidae), and its parasitoid Eretmocerus sp. nr. emiratus (Hymenoptera: Aphelinidae). Environ Entomol, 43(2):353-62.

      Chrostek E, Pelz-Stelinski K, Hurst GDD, Hughes GL, 2017. Horizontal transmission of intracellular insect symbionts via plants. Front Microbiol, 8:2237.

      Li SJ, Ahmed MZ, Lv N, Shi PQ, Wang XM, Huang JL, Qiu BL, 2017. Plant-mediated horizontal transmission of Wolbachia between whiteflies. ISME J, 11(4):1019-1028.

      Li YH, Ahmed MZ, Li SJ, Lv N, Shi PQ, Chen XS, Qiu BL, 2017. Plant-mediated horizontal transmission of Rickettsia endosymbiont between different whitefly species. FEMS Microbiol Ecol, 93(12).

      Liu Y, He ZQ, Wen Q, Peng J, Zhou YT, Mandour N, McKenzie CL, Ahmed MZ, Qiu BL, 2023. Parasitoid-mediated horizontal transmission of Rickettsia between whiteflies. Front Cell Infect Microbiol, 12:1077494.

      Qi LD, Sun JT, Hong XY, Li YX, 2019. Diversity and phylogenetic analyses reveal horizontal transmission of endosymbionts between whiteflies and their parasitoids. J Econ Entomol, 112(2):894-905.

      Shi PQ, Wang L, Chen XY, Wang K, Wu QJ, Turlings TCJ, Zhang PJ, Qiu BL, 2024. Rickettsia transmission from whitefly to plants benefits herbivore insects but is detrimental to fungal and viral pathogens. mBio, 15(3):e0244823.

      Weaknesses:

      In the current study, the authors downloaded the MLST or wsp genes from a public database and analyzed the data using other methods, and I think the authors may not be familiar with the research progress in the field of insect symbiont transmission, and the current stage of this manuscript lacking sufficient novelty.

      We appreciate your critical perspective on our study. However, we respectfully disagree with the viewpoint that our manuscript lacks sufficient novelty.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The data and scripts from the experimental section of the paper are not made publicly available. This would be good practice. It may well be a requirement for this journal too, but I have not read the journal policy on this matter.

      Thank you for the kind reminder, we have uploaded the data and scripts to the public database at https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.24718119.

      • Line 16 should read 'intertrophic' not 'intertropical'.

      Corrected.

      • Line 50 should not say 'the most infectious' as this is an incorrect use of the word 'infectious'. Maybe 'common'? Should also add something like 'likely' here.

      Corrected. The new sentence reads “Together, these characteristics make Wolbachia likely the most common microbe on Earth in terms of the number of species it infects (7, 8).” (Lines 47–49 in the revised manuscript).

      • Line 54 These references are all about mosquito disease vectors, not pests. More generally, in this paragraph, the research interest in Wolbachia relates overwhelmingly to blocking arbovirus transmission and not controlling pest populations.

      To enhance consistency with our statements, we have revised the supporting references as follows:

      X. Zheng et al., "Combined incompatible and sterile insect techniques eliminate mosquitoes," Nature 572, 56-61 (2019).

      A. A. Hoffmann et al., "Wolbachia establishment in Aedes populations to suppress dengue transmission," Nature 476, 454-457 (2011).

      J. T. Gong, T. P. Li, M. K. Wang, X. Y. Hong, "Prospects of Wolbachia in agricultural Pest Control," Current Opinion in Insect Science 57, 101039 (2023).J. T. Gong et al., "Stable integration of plant-virus-inhibiting Wolbachia into planthoppers for rice protection," Current Biology 30, 4837-4845.e4835 (2020).

      Regarding the content of the articles:

      Zheng et al. (2019) detail the successful suppression of wild mosquito populations through the release of male mosquitoes artificially infected with Wolbachia.

      Gong et al. (2020) present the potential of releasing Wolbachia-infected brown planthoppers to inhibit plant viruses and control pest populations.

      Gong et al. (2023) provide a comprehensive review on the application and future of Wolbachia in managing agricultural pests.

      • Line 60-61. This sentence seems poorly supported by theory or data. I suggest it is deleted. Why should CI cause extinction, and why would it have a major effect on genetic diversity beyond mtDNA?

      We have deleted the statements about extinction or genetic diversity. Now the sentence reads “It may also spread to nontarget organisms, potentially disrupting their population dynamics.” (Lines 57–58 in the revised manuscript)

      • Line 66. Reword to make clear these routes are not an exhaustive list.

      We have reworded these sentences. The new sentences now read “Similar to other symbionts, Wolbachia host shifts may occur through three main routes: parasitism, predation, and shared plant or other food sources (17). However, it is important to note that these are not the only routes through which transmission may occur, and the specific contributions of each to the overall process of host shift are not yet fully understood.” (Lines 62–66 in the revised manuscript).

      • Line 77-79. This could do with mentioning studies of parasitoid-to-host transmission like Ahmedd et al given that it is common knowledge that insects commonly survive parasitoid attacks.

      We have added sentences acknowledging the common occurrence of insects surviving parasitoid attacks and referenced and described the Ahmed et al. 2015 study. The added sentences read:

      “However, it is common in nature for hosts to survive parasitoid attacks (27-29). For example, whiteflies can survive after attacks of Eretmocerus parasitoids (27). These parasitoids can act as phoretic vectors, facilitating the spread of Wolbachia within whitefly populations through the contamination of their mouthparts and ovipositors with Wolbachia during the probing process (27).” (Lines 77–82 in the revised manuscript).

      • Line 173. Mention that there are three replicates of each cage. In Figures 2C and D, it is better to show each replicate as a separate line to see how consistent they are.

      In accordance with the reviewer's suggestion, we have included a statement highlighting the replication of our experiments: “Notably, each cage setup was replicated three times to ensure experimental rigor.” (Lines 179–180 in the revised manuscript).

      Regarding Figures 2C and D, we have revised the figures to display each replicate as a separate line, as suggested. However, we have encountered a visual clutter that may detract from the clarity of the figures. Additionally, in Figure C, the three black lines, all representing zero values, do not allow for the distinction of individual trends. Therefore, we recommend retaining the original figure format. In accordance with eLife's data policy, we have also provided the source data for all figures, ensuring that readers can access to the detailed data, thus balancing the need for visual simplicity with the provision of comprehensive data.

      Author response image 1.

      • The GloBI database is central to the phylogenetic analysis and it would be helpful to have a few words in the results stating where this information comes from.

      The revised sentence now reads: “To investigate potential horizontal transmission of Wolbachia, we retrieved 4685 wsp sequences from the NCBI database, and species interaction relationships were extracted from the GloBI database (for details, see Methods and Materials).” (Lines 94–96 in the revised manuscript).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      To improve the quality of this manuscript, I have some questions and suggestions.

      Introduction:

      Line 41-42, I don't agree with this statement, as mentioned above, the ways of insect symbiont transmission have been studied in the last 10 years.

      According to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have deleted this statement.

      Line 75-76, Again, the statement is not correct, many studies have clearly revealed and confirmed that Wolbachia CAN be transferred from parasitoid to their insect hosts including whitefly Bemisia tabaci.

      Thank you for your insightful comments. After careful consideration of the studies you have mentioned above, none of these articles provided definitive evidence supporting the transfer of Wolbachia from parasitoids to their insect hosts. A closely related study is Ahmed et al. (2015) in PLoS Pathogens. This article demonstrates that parasitoid wasps can act as phoretic vectors mediating the transmission of Wolbachia between whiteflies. However, Wolbachia did not infect the parasitoid wasps themselves. Therefore, this study does not provide evidence for intertrophic transmission of Wolbachia from parasitoids to their hosts. To avoid confusion, we have cited the Ahmed et al. (2015) reference following this statement and described its findings accordingly. (Lines 88-92 in revised manuscript).

      Results:

      Line 133-134, Ahmed et al. 2016 BMC Evolution Biology, clearly revealed and confirmed the "common horizontal transmission of Wolbachia between butterflies and moths".

      We thank you for guiding us to the relevant study. Ahmed et al. 2016 BMC Evolution Biology suggested common horizontal transmission of Wolbachia between butterflies and moths and proposed that this horizontal transmission might be caused by parasitoid wasps. Here, we present the potential Wolbachia transfer between Trichogramma and their lepidopteran hosts (Lines 135–136 in revised manuscript). Integrating the results from Ahmed et al. 2016, our result also suggests that Trichogramma wasps may be the vectors for horizontal transmission of Wolbachia among lepidopteran hosts. We have discussed this point in the discussion section and cited Ahmed et al. 2016 BMC Evolution Biology (Lines 239–246 in revised manuscript).

      Line 176-177, as we know Wolbachia in Encarsia formosa is a strain of parthenogenesis, why did it reduce the female ratio of whitefly progeny after it was transmitted to whitefly B. tabaci, it needs a convincing explanation.

      Wolbachia induces parthenogenesis in En. formosa. However, we observed that Wolbachia from En. formosa failed to induce parthenogenesis in B. tabaci, possibly due to the requirement for host gene compatibility. Additionally, we noted a reduced female ratio in B. tabaci infected with En. formosa Wolbachia. We speculate that this might result from the burden imposed by En. formosa Wolbachia on the new host, potentially reducing fertilization success rates and indirectly leading to a decrease in the female ratio. Similarly, we observed a decline in female fecundity, egg hatching rate, and immature survival rate in B. tabaci infected with En. formosa Wolbachia. The mechanisms underlying these fitness costs remain unclear and warrant further in-depth research.

      Line 189-190, do the authors have convincing evidence that the 60Gy irradiation only has effects on the reproduction of En. formosa, but does not have any negative effects on the activity of Wolbachia? I think there may be.

      We observed that after irradiation, the titer of Wolbachia within En. formosa significantly decreased (Fig S3). We agree that the irradiation may cause other negative effects on Wolbachia which is worth of close investigation. However, even with a significant reduction in Wolbachia titer, irradiation increased the infection rate of Wolbachia in surviving B. tabaci after wasp attacks (Fig 3C). We speculate that this may be due to irradiation of En. formosa increasing the rate of parasitic failure. While the full extent of the effects of irradiation on Wolbachia is not yet clear in our experiments, it does not alter our conclusion that Wolbachia can be transmitted from En. formosa to whitefly hosts through failed parasitism.

      Discussion:

      Line 289-290, I don't understand, why the authors think from parasitoid Eretmocerus to whitefly, and from Trichogramma to moth, are the same trophic level, they are indeed two different trophic levels.

      Thank you for your feedback. We have conducted a thorough search but were unable to locate the specific statement you are referring to. If there has been any ambiguity in our manuscript that has led to confusion, we sincerely apologize for any misunderstanding it may have caused. We agree with your perspective and have always considered the parasitoid Eretmocerus and whitefly, as well as Trichogramma and moth, to be at different trophic levels. However, in the context of specific references, such as Ahmed et al. 2015 in PLoS Pathogens, we believe that Wolbachia is transmitted within the same trophic level without infecting the parasitoid Eretmocerus, merely serving as a phoretic vector to facilitate the spread of Wolbachia among whitefly hosts. Similarly, in the case of Huigens et al. 2000 in Nature, Wolbachia uses lepidopteran hosts as vectors to promote its transmission among Trichogramma without the need to infect the lepidopteran hosts themselves.

      Materials and Methods

      Line 348, what is tblastn?

      We have corrected tblastn to TBLASTN. We are grateful to the reviewer for pointing this out. Here, we utilized TBLASTN instead of BLASTN, to avoid missing the rapidly evolving wsp sequences. Because alignment at the protein level is generally more sensitive than at the nucleotide level. TBLASTN is a bioinformatics tool within the BLAST (Basic Local Alignment Search Tool) suite used for comparing a protein query sequence against a nucleotide database. Specifically, TBLASTN aligns a given protein sequence with nucleotide sequences in a database by translating the nucleotide sequences into all possible protein sequences (considering different reading frames) and comparing them to the query protein sequence.

      Line 383, how was the Wolbachia-free line of B. tabaci established, by antibiotics? If so, how do we ensure the antibiotic does not have any negative to other symbionts in whitefly B. tabaci?

      The Wolbachia-free line of B. tabaci was collected from field, without the treatment of antibiotics. We have made revisions in the Materials and Methods section to clarify this, stating, "An iso-female line of B. tabaci, which is naturally Wolbachia-free and has not been treated with antibiotics, was established." (Lines 417–418 in the revised manuscript)

      Line 419-421 as I mentioned before, the irradiation may have negative effects on Wolbachia too, so change the biology of both Encarsia and whitefly host.

      We observed that after irradiation, the titer of Wolbachia within En. formosa significantly decreased (Fig S3). However, even with a significant reduction in Wolbachia titer, irradiation increased the infection rate of Wolbachia in surviving B. tabaci after wasp attacks (Fig 3C). We speculate that this may be due to irradiation of En. formosa increasing the rate of parasitic failure. While the full extent of the effects of irradiation on Wolbachia is not yet clear in our experiments, it does not alter our conclusion that Wolbachia can be transmitted from En. formosa to whitefly hosts through failed parasitism.

      Line 452-453, From egg to eclosion, it needs about 21 days to understand suitable temperature and other conditions, during this period, the egg and nymphs can not move, so how to keep the cut-leaf fresh enough in a Petri dish for 21 days?

      We apologize for not clearly describing the materials and methods. By using wet cotton to wrap the end of petiole of the leaf, we can keep the leaves fresh for up to a month. We have included this detail in the materials and methods to enhance the reproducibility of the experiment. “A single irradiated wasp was subsequently introduced into a Petri dish, which contained a tomato leaf infested with Wolbachia-free third or fourth instar whitefly nymphs, and wet cotton was used to wrap the end of the leaf petiole to keep the leaf fresh.” (Lines 455–458 in the revised manuscript)

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript describes a series of experiments using human intracranial neural recordings designed to evaluate the processing of self-generated speech in the setting of feedback delays. Specifically, the authors aim to address the question about the relationship between speech-induced suppression and feedback sensitivity in the auditory cortex, whose relationship has been conflicting in the literature. They found a correlation between speech suppression and feedback delay sensitivity, suggesting a common process. Additional controls were done for possible forward suppression/adaptation, as well as controlling for other confounds due to amplification, etc.

      Strengths:

      The primary strength of the manuscript is the use of human intracranial recording, which is a valuable resource and gives better spatial and temporal resolution than many other approaches. The use of delayed auditory feedback is also novel and has seen less attention than other forms of shifted feedback during vocalization. Analyses are robust, and include demonstrating a scaling of neural activity with the degree of feedback delay, and more robust evidence for error encoding than simply using a single feedback perturbation.

      Weaknesses:

      Some of the analyses performed differ from those used in past work, which limits the ability to directly compare the results. Notably, past work has compared feedback effects between production and listening, which was not done here. There were also some unusual effects in the data, such as increased activity with no feedback delay when wearing headphones, that the authors attempted to control for with additional experiments, but remain unclear. Confounds by behavioral results of delayed feedback are also unclear.

      Overall the work is well done and clearly explained. The manuscript addresses an area of some controversy and does so in a rigorous fashion, namely the correlation between speech-induced suppression and feedback sensitivity (or lack thereof). While the data presented overlaps that collected and used for a previous paper, this is expected given the rare commodity these neural recordings represent. Contrasting these results to previous ones using pitch-shifted feedback should spawn additional discussion and research, including verification of the previous finding, looking at how the brain encodes feedback during speech over multiple acoustic dimensions, and how this information can be used in speech motor control.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments and have addressed the concerns point by point in the section “Recommendation for Authors”.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      "Speech-induced suppression and vocal feedback sensitivity in human cortex", Ozker and colleagues use intracranial EEG to understand audiomotor feedback during speech production using a speech production and delayed auditory feedback task. The purpose of the paper is to understand where and how speaker-induced suppression occurs, and whether this suppression might be related to feedback monitoring. First, they identified sites that showed auditory suppression during speech production using a single-word auditory repetition task and a visual reading task, then observed whether and how these electrodes show sensitivity to auditory feedback using a DAF paradigm. The stimuli were single words played auditorily or shown visually and repeated or read aloud by the participant. Neural data were recorded from regular- and high-density grids from the left and right hemispheres. The main findings were:

      • Speaker-induced suppression is strongest in the STG and MTG, and enhancement is generally seen in frontal/motor areas except for small regions of interest in the dorsal sensorimotor cortex and IFG, which can also show suppression.<br /> • Delayed auditory feedback, even when simultaneous, induces larger response amplitudes compared to the typical auditory word repetition and visual reading tasks. The authors presume this may be due to the effort and attention required to perform the DAF task.

      • The degree of speaker-induced suppression is correlated with sensitivity to delayed auditory feedback. • pSTG (behind TTS) is more strongly modulated by DAF than mid-anterior STG

      Strengths:

      Overall, I found the manuscript to be clear, the methodology and statistics to be solid, and the findings mostly quite robust. The large number of participants with high-density coverage over both the left and right lateral hemispheres allows for a greater dissection of the topography of speaker-induced suppression and changes due to audiomotor feedback. The tasks were well-designed and controlled for repetition suppression and other potential caveats.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) In Figure 1D, it would make more sense to align the results to the onset of articulation rather than the onset of the auditory or visual cue, since the point is to show that the responses during articulation are relatively similar. In this form, the more obvious difference is that there is an auditory response to the auditory stimulus, and none to the visual, which is expected, but not what I think the authors want to convey.

      We agree with the reviewer. We have updated Figure 1 accordingly.

      (2) The DAF paradigm includes playing auditory feedback at 0, 50, 100, and 200 ms lag, and it is expected that some of these lags are more likely to induce dysfluencies than others. It would be helpful to include some analysis of whether the degree of suppression or enhancement varies by performance on the task, since some participants may find some lags more interfering than others.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. In the original analysis, we calculated a Sensitivity Index for each electrode by correlating the high gamma response with the delay condition across trials. To address the reviewer’s question, we now compared delay conditions in pairs (DAF0 vs DAF50, DAF0 vs DAF100, DAF0 vs DAF200, DAF50 vs DAF100, DAF50 vs DAF200 and DAF100 vs DAF200).

      Similar to our Suppression Index calculation, where we compared neural response to listening and speaking conditions (Listen-Speak/Listen+Speak), we now calculated the Sensitivity Index by comparing neural response to two delay conditions as follows:

      e.g.  Sensitivity Index = (DAF50 – DAF0) / (DAF50 + DAF0). We used the raw high gamma broadband signal power instead of percent signal change to ensure that the Sensitivity Index values varied between -1 to 1.

      As shown in the figure below, even when we break down the analysis by feedback delay, we still find a significant association between suppression and sensitivity (except for when we calculate sensitivity indices by comparing DAF50 and DAF100). Strongest correlation (Pearson’s correlation) was found when sensitivity indices were calculated by comparing DAF0 and DAF200.

      As the reviewer suggested, participants found DAF200 more interfering than the others and slowed down their speech the most (Articulation duration; DAF0: 0.698, DAF50: 0.726, DAF100: 0.737, and DAF200: 0.749 milliseconds; Ozker, Doyle et al. 2022).

      Author response image 1.

      (3) Figure 3 shows data from only two electrodes from one patient. An analysis of how amplitude changes as a function of the lag across all of the participants who performed this task would be helpful to see how replicable these patterns of activity are across patients. Is sensitivity to DAF always seen as a change in amplitude, or are there ever changes in latency as well? The analysis in Figure 4 gets at which electrodes are sensitive to DAF but does not give a sense of whether the temporal profile is similar to those shown in Figure 3.

      In Figure 4A, electrodes from all participants are color-coded to reflect the correlation between neural response amplitude and auditory feedback delay. A majority of auditory electrodes in the STG exhibit a positive correlation, indicating that response amplitude increases with increasing feedback delays. To demonstrate the replicability of the response patterns in Figure 3, here we show auditory responses averaged across 23 STG electrodes from 6 participants.

      Author response image 2.

      Response latency in auditory regions also increases with increasing auditory feedback delays. But this delayed auditory response to delayed auditory feedback is expected. In Figure 3, signals were aligned to the perceived auditory feedback onset, therefore we don’t see the latency differences. Below we replotted the same responses by aligning the signal to the onset of articulation. It is now clearer that responses are delayed as the auditory feedback delay increases. This is because participants start speaking at time=0, but they hear their voice with a lag so the response onset in these auditory regions are delayed.

      According to models of speech production, when there is a mismatch between expected and perceived auditory feedback, the auditory cortex encodes this mismatch with an enhanced response, reflecting an error signal. Therefore, we referred to changes in response amplitude as a measure of sensitivity to DAF.

      (4) While the sensitivity index helps to show whether increasing amounts of feedback delay are correlated with increased response enhancement, it is not sensitive to nonlinear changes as a function of feedback delay, and it is not clear from Figure 3 or 4 whether such relationships exist. A deeper investigation into the response types observed during DAF would help to clarify whether this is truly a linear relationship, dependent on behavioral errors, or something else.

      We compared responses to delay conditions in pairs in the analysis presented above (response #2). We hope these new results also clarifies this issue and address the reviewer’s concerns.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major points:

      (1) While the correlation between SuppI and SensI is clear here (as opposed to Chang et al), it is unclear if this difference is a byproduct of how SensI was calculated (and not just different tasks). In that paper, the feedback sensitivity was calculated as a metric comparing feedback responses during production and listening, whereas here the SensI is a correlation coefficient during production only. If the data exists, it would be very helpful to also show an analysis similar to that used previously (i.e. comparing DAF effects in both production and playback, either in correlations or just the 200ms delay response). One could imagine that some differences are due to sensory properties, though it is certainly less clear what delay effects would be on listening compared to say pitch shift.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Indeed, the calculation of SensI is different in the two studies. In Chang et al. study, SensI was calculated by comparing perturbed feedback responses during production and passive listening. This is a very meticulous approach as it controls for the acoustic properties of the auditory stimuli under both conditions.

      In our study, we didn’t have a passive listening condition. This would require recording the participants’ voice as they were speaking with DAF and playing it back to them in a subsequent passive listening condition. Therefore, we can’t completely eliminate the possibility that some differences are due to sensory properties. However, to address the reviewer’s concern, we examined the voice recordings of 8 participants for acoustic differences. Specifically, we compared voice intensities for different auditory feedback delays (0,50,100 and 200ms) and found no significant differences (F=0, p=0.091).

      We think that the difference with the Chang et al. study is an important point to emphasize, therefore we now added in the Discussion:

      “In contrast, to replicate this finding in humans, a previous iEEG study by Chang et al. (Chang, Niziolek et al. 2013) used frequency-shifted feedback during vowel production and found that most suppressed auditory sites did not overlap with those sensitive to feedback alterations. Using DAF instead of frequency-shifted feedback, we demonstrated a significant overlap of two neural populations in the STG, along with a strong correlation between the degree of speech-induced suppression and sensitivity to auditory feedback. This discrepancy may be due to different methods of calculating sensitivity to altered feedback. In our study, sensitivity was determined by comparing responses to delayed and non-delayed feedback during production, whereas Chang et al. compared perturbed feedback responses during production and listening. One possibility is that our approach identifies a larger auditory neural population in the STG sensitive to altered feedback. Alternatively, it could indicate a larger population highly sensitive to temporal rather than spectral perturbations in auditory feedback. Thus, we observe a wide overlap of the two neural populations in the STG showing both speech-induced suppression and sensitivity to auditory feedback. Replaying a recording of the participants' own delayed voice back to them, which we were unable to complete in this study, would have made the results of the two studies more comparable while also completely eliminating the possibility of a sensory explanation for the observed response enhancement.”

      (2) I am still a bit unclear on how Experiment 4 is different than the no-delay condition in Experiment 3. Please clarify. Also, to be clear, in Experiments 1+2 the subjects were not wearing any headphones and had no additional sidetone?

      It is correct that participants were not wearing earphones in Experiments 1&2 (with no additional sidetone), and that they were wearing earphones in Experiments 3&4.

      For the “no delay” condition in the DAF experiment (Experiment 3), participants were wearing earphones and reading words with simultaneous auditory feedback. So, this condition was equivalent to visual word reading (Experiment 2), except participants were wearing earphones. Yet, neural responses were much larger for the “no delay” condition in the DAF experiment compared to visual word reading.

      We suspected that larger neural responses in the DAF experiment were caused by hearing auditory feedback through earphones. To test and control for this possibility, in a subset of participants, we ran an additional visual word reading experiment (Experiment 4) with earphones and used the same volume settings as in the DAF experiment. We found that response magnitudes were now similar in the two experiments (Experiment 3 and 4) and earphones (with the associated increased sound amplitude) were indeed the reason for larger neural responses. Thus, Experiment 4 differs from the no-delay condition in Experiment 3 only in the stimuli read aloud.

      (3) In Figure 3, why is the DAF200 condition activity so much bigger than the other conditions, even prior to the DAF onset? I worry this might bias the rest of the response differences.

      In Figure 3B and 3D, time=0 indicates the onset of the perceived auditory feedback. Below we replotted the responses in the same two electrodes but now time=0 indicates the onset of articulation. We see that the peaking time of the responses are delayed as the auditory feedback delay increases. This is because participants start speaking at time=0, but they hear their voice with a lag so the response onset in these auditory regions are delayed. However, like the reviewer pointed out, the response for the DAF200 condition in Electrode G54 is slightly larger even at the very beginning. We think that this small, early response might reflect a response to the bone-conducted auditory feedback, which might be more prominent for the DAF200 condition. Nevertheless, we still see that response amplitude increase with increasing feedback delays in Electrode 63.

      (4) Figure 4C, are the labeled recording sites limited to those with significant DAF and/or suppression?

      In Figure 4C, we show electrodes that had significant high-gamma broadband responses during all tasks. We write in the Methods: “Electrodes that showed significant response increase (p < 10−4) either before (−0.5 to 0 s) or after speech onset (0 to 0.5 s) with respect to a baseline period (−1 to −0.6 s) and at the same time had a large signal-to-noise ratio (μ/σ > 0.7) during either of these time windows were selected. Electrode selection was first performed for each task separately, then electrodes that were commonly selected were further analyzed.”

      (5) Were there any analyses done to control for the effects of vocal changes on the DAF neural responses? The authors' previous paper did note a behavioral effect. This is probably not trivial, as we may not know the 'onset time' of the response, in contrast to pitch shift where it is more regular. If the timing is unknown, one thing that could be tried is to only look early in DAF responses (first 50ms say) to make sure the DAF effects hold.

      DAF involves two different perturbations: the absence of feedback at speech onset and the introduction of delayed feedback during playback. The timing of the behavioral effect in response to these two perturbations remains unclear. Aligning the neural responses to the production onset and examining the first 50ms would only capture the response to the acoustic feedback for the no-delay condition within that time window. Conversely, aligning the responses to the playback onset might miss the onset of the behavioral effect, which likely starts earlier as a response to the lack of feedback. We acknowledge the reviewer's point that this is a limitation of the DAF paradigm, and the behavioral effect is not as straightforward as that of pitch perturbation. However, we believe there is no clear solution to this issue.

      Minor points:

      (1) Figure 3, it might be nice to show the SuppI and SensI on the plots to give the reader a better sense of what those values look like.

      We included SuppI and SensI values in the new version of Figure 3.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor Comments:

      (1) In Figure 1, it is unclear whether the responses shown in B-D correspond to the ROIs shown in Figure A - I am guessing so, but the alignment of the labels makes this slightly unclear, so I suggest these be relabeled somehow for clarity.

      This is fixed in the updated version of Figure 1.

      (2) In Figure 1D the difference in colors between AWR and VWR is difficult to appreciate - I suggest using two contrasting colors.

      This is fixed in the updated version of Figure 1.

      (3) Please add y-axis labels for Fig 3B-D. (I believe these are % signal change, but it would be clearer if the label were included).

      This is fixed in the updated version of Figure 3.

      (4) Can the authors comment on whether the use of speakers for AWR and VWR versus earphones for DAF and VWF- AF may have had an influence on the increased response in this condition? If the AWR were rerun using the headphone setup, or if DAF with 0 ms feedback were run with no other trials including lags, would the large differences in response amplitude be observed?

      Participants were not wearing earphones in Experiments 1&2, and that they were wearing earphones in Experiments 3&4.

      For the “no delay” condition in the DAF experiment (Experiment 3), participants were wearing earphones and reading words with simultaneous auditory feedback. So, this condition was equivalent to VWR (Experiment 2), except participants were wearing earphones. Yet, neural responses were much larger for the “no delay” condition in the DAF experiment compared to VWR.

      Supporting the reviewer’s concerns, we suspected that larger neural responses in the DAF experiment were caused by hearing auditory feedback through earphones. To test and control for this possibility, in a subset of participants, we ran the VWR-AF experiment (Experiment 4) with earphones and used the same volume settings as in the DAF experiment. We found that response magnitudes were now similar in the two experiments (Experiment 3 and 4) and earphones were indeed the reason for larger neural responses.

      (5) No data or code were available, I did not see any statement about this nor any github link or OSF link to share their data and/or code.

      Data is available in the Github repository: flinkerlab/Sensitivity-Suppression

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Here, the authors propose that changes in m6A levels may be predictable via a simple model that is based exclusively on mRNA metabolic events. Under this model, m6A mRNAs are "passive" victims of RNA metabolic events with no "active" regulatory events needed to modulate their levels by m6A writers, readers, or erasers; looking at changes in RNA transcription, RNA export, and RNA degradation dynamics is enough to explain how m6A levels change over time.

      The relevance of this study is extremely high at this stage of the epi transcriptome field. This compelling paper is in line with more and more recent studies showing how m6A is a constitutive mark reflecting overall RNA redistribution events. At the same time, it reminds every reader to carefully evaluate changes in m6A levels if observed in their experimental setup. It highlights the importance of performing extensive evaluations on how much RNA metabolic events could explain an observed m6A change.

      Weaknesses:

      It is essential to notice that m6ADyn does not exactly recapitulate the observed m6A changes. First, this can be due to m6ADyn's limitations. The authors do a great job in the Discussion highlighting these limitations. Indeed, they mention how m6ADyn cannot interpret m6A's implications on nuclear degradation or splicing and cannot model more complex scenario predictions (i.e., a scenario in which m6A both impacts export and degradation) or the contribution of single sites within a gene.

      Secondly, since predictions do not exactly recapitulate the observed m6A changes, "active" regulatory events may still play a partial role in regulating m6A changes. The authors themselves highlight situations in which data do not support m6ADyn predictions. Active mechanisms to control m6A degradation levels or mRNA export levels could exist and may still play an essential role.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s appreciation of our findings and their implications, and are in full agreement with the reviewer regarding the limitations of our model, and the discrepancies in some cases - with our experimental measurements, potentially pointing at more complex biology than is captured by m6ADyn. We certainly cannot dismiss the possibility that active mechanisms may play a role in shaping m6A dynamics at some sites, or in some contexts. Our study aims to broaden the discussion in the field, and to introduce the possibility that passive models can explain a substantial extent of the variability observed in m6A levels.

      (1) "We next sought to assess whether alternative models could readily predict the positive correlation between m6A and nuclear localization and the negative correlations between m6A and mRNA stability. We assessed how nuclear decay might impact these associations by introducing nuclear decay as an additional rate, δ. We found that both associations were robust to this additional rate (Supplementary Figure 2a-c)."

      Based on the data, I would say that model 2 (m6A-dep + nuclear degradation) is better than model 1. The discussion of these findings in the Discussion could help clarify how to interpret this prediction. Is nuclear degradation playing a significant role, more than expected by previous studies?

      This is an important point, which we’ve now clarified in the discussion. Including nonspecific nuclear degradation in the m6ADyn framework provides a model that better aligns with the observed data, particularly by mitigating unrealistic predictions such as excessive nuclear accumulation for genes with very low sampled export rates. This adjustment addresses potential artifacts in nuclear abundance and half-life estimations. However, we continued to use the simpler version of m6ADyn for most analyses, as it captures the key dynamics and relationships effectively without introducing additional complexity. While including nuclear degradation enhances the model's robustness, it does not fundamentally alter the primary conclusions or outcomes. This balance allows for a more straightforward interpretation of the results.

      (2) The authors classify m6A levels as "low" or "high," and it is unclear how "low" differs from unmethylated mRNAs.

      We thank the reviewer for this observation. We analyzed gene methylation levels using the m6A-GI (m6A gene index) metric, which reflects the enrichment of the IP fraction across the entire gene body (CDS + 3UTR). While some genes may have minimal or no methylation, most genes likely exist along a spectrum from low to high methylation levels. Unlike earlier analyses that relied on arbitrary thresholds to classify sites as methylated, GLORI data highlight the presence of many low-stoichiometry sites that are typically overlooked. To capture this spectrum, we binned genes into equal-sized groups based on their m6A-GI values, allowing a more nuanced interpretation of methylation patterns as a continuum rather than a binary or discrete classification (e.g. no- , low- , high methylation).

      (3) The authors explore whether m6A changes could be linked with differences in mRNA subcellular localization. They tested this hypothesis by looking at mRNA changes during heat stress, a complex scenario to predict with m6ADyn. According to the collected data, heat shock is not associated with dramatic changes in m6A levels. However, the authors observe a redistribution of m6A mRNAs during the treatment and recovery time, with highly methylated mRNAs getting retained in the nucleus being associated with a shorter half-life, and being transcriptional induced by HSF1. Based on this observation, the authors use m6Adyn to predict the contribution of RNA export, RNA degradation, and RNA transcription to the observed m6A changes. However:

      (a) Do the authors have a comparison of m6ADyn predictions based on the assumption that RNA export and RNA transcription may change at the same time?

      We thank the reviewer for this point. Under the simple framework of m6ADyn in which RNA transcription and RNA export are independent of each other, the effect of simultaneously modulating two rates is additive. In Author response image 1, we simulate some scenarios wherein we simultaneously modulate two rates. For example, transcriptional upregulation and decreased export during heat shock could reinforce m6A increases, whereas transcriptional downregulation might counteract the effects of reduced export. Note that while production and export can act in similar or opposing directions, the former can only lead to temporary changes in m6A levels but without impacting steady-state levels, whereas the latter (changes in export) can alter steady-state levels. We have clarified this in the manuscript results to better contextualize how these dynamics interact.

      Author response image 1.

      m6ADyn predictions of m6A gene levels (left) and Nuc to Cyt ratio (right) upon varying perturbations of a sampled gene. The left panel depicts the simulated dynamics of log2-transformed m6A gene levels under varying conditions. The lines represent the following perturbations: (1) export is reduced to 10% (β), (2) production is increased 10-fold (α) while export is reduced to 10% (β), (3) export is reduced to 10% (β) and production is reduced to 10% (α), and (4) export is only decreased for methylated transcripts (β^m6A) to 10%. The right panel shows the corresponding nuclear:cytoplasmic (log2 Nuc:Cyt) ratios for perturbations 1 and 4.

      (b) They arbitrarily set the global reduction of export to 10%, but I'm not sure we can completely rule out whether m6A mRNAs have an export rate during heat shock similar to the non-methylated mRNAs. What happens if the authors simulate that the block in export could be preferential for m6A mRNAs only?

      We thank the reviewer for this interesting suggestion. While we cannot fully rule out such a scenario, we can identify arguments against it being an exclusive explanation. Specifically, an exclusive reduction in the export rate of methylated transcripts would be expected to increase the relationship between steady-state m6A levels (the ratio of methylated to unmethylated transcripts) and changes in localization, such that genes with higher m6A levels would exhibit a greater relative increase in the nuclear-to-cytoplasmic (Nuc:Cyt) ratio. However, the attached analysis shows only a weak association during heat stress, where genes with higher m6A-GI levels tend to increase just a little more in the Nuc:Cyt ratio, likely due to cytoplasmic depletion. A global reduction of export (β 10%) produces a similar association, while a scenario where only the export of methylated transcripts is reduced (β^m6A 10%) results in a significantly stronger association (Author response image 2). This supports the plausibility of a global export reduction. Additionally, genes with very low methylation levels in control conditions also show a significant increase in the Nuc:Cyt ratio, which is inconsistent with a scenario of preferential export reduction for methylated transcripts (data not shown).

      Author response image 2.

      Wild-type MEFs m6A-GIs (x-axis) vs. fold change nuclear:cytoplasmic localization heat shock 1.5 h and control (y-axis), Pearson’s correlation indicated (left panel). m6ADyn, rates sampled for 100 genes based on gamma distributions and simulation based on reducing the global export rate (β) to 10% (middle panel). m6ADyn simulation for reducing the export rate for m6A methylated transcripts (β^m6A) to 10% (right panel).

      (c) The dramatic increase in the nucleus: cytoplasmic ratio of mRNA upon heat stress may not reflect the overall m6A mRNA distribution upon heat stress. It would be interesting to repeat the same experiment in METTL3 KO cells. Of note, m6A mRNA granules have been observed within 30 minutes of heat shock. Thus, some m6A mRNAs may still be preferentially enriched in these granules for storage rather than being directly degraded. Overall, it would be interesting to understand the authors' position relative to previous studies of m6A during heat stress.

      The reviewer suggests that methylation is actively driving localization during heat shock, rather than being passively regulated. To address this question, we have now knocked down WTAP, an essential component of the methylation machinery, and monitored nuclear:cytoplasmic localization over the course of a heat shock response. Even with reduced m6A levels, high PC1 genes exhibit increased nuclear abundance during heat shock. Notably, the dynamics of this trend are altered, with the peak effect delayed from 1.5h heat shock in siCTRL samples to 4 hours in siWTAP samples (Supplementary Figure 4). This finding underscores that m6A is not the primary driver of these mRNA localization changes but rather reflects broader mRNA metabolic shifts during heat shock. These findings have been added as a panel e) to Supplementary Figure 4.

      (d) Gene Ontology analysis based on the top 1000 PC1 genes shows an enrichment of GOs involved in post-translational protein modification more than GOs involved in cellular response to stress, which is highlighted by the authors and used as justification to study RNA transcriptional events upon heat shock. How do the authors think that GOs involved in post-translational protein modification may contribute to the observed data?

      High PC1 genes exhibit increased methylation and a shift in nuclear-to-cytoplasmic localization during heat stress. While the enriched GO terms for these genes are not exclusively related to stress-response proteins, one could speculate that their nuclear retention reduces translation during heat stress. The heat stress response genes are of particular interest, which are massively transcriptionally induced and display increased methylation. This observation supports m6ADyn predictions that elevated methylation levels in these genes are driven by transcriptional induction rather than solely by decreased export rates.

      (e) Additionally, the authors first mention that there is no dramatic change in m6A levels upon heat shock, "subtle quantitative differences were apparent," but then mention a "systematic increase in m6A levels observed in heat stress". It is unclear to which systematic increase they are referring to. Are the authors referring to previous studies? It is confusing in the field what exactly is going on after heat stress. For instance, in some papers, a preferential increase of 5'UTR m6A has been proposed rather than a systematic and general increase.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. In our manuscript, we sought to emphasize, on the one hand, the fact that m6A profiles are - at first approximation - “constitutive”, as indicated by high Pearson correlations between conditions (Supplementary Figure 4a). On the other hand, we sought to emphasize that the above notwithstanding, subtle quantitative differences are apparent in heat shock, encompassing large numbers of genes, and these differences are coherent with time following heat shock (and in this sense ‘systematic’), rather than randomly fluctuating across time points. Based on our analysis, these changes do not appear to be preferentially enriched at 5′UTR sites but occur more broadly across gene bodies (potentially a slight 3’ bias). A quick analysis of the HSF1-induced heat stress response genes, focusing on their relative enrichment of methylation upon heat shock, shows that the 5'UTR regions exhibit a roughly similar increase in methylation after 1.5 hours of heat stress compared to the rest of the gene body (Author response image 3). A prominent previous publication (Zhou et al. 2015) suggested that m6A levels specifically increase in the 5'UTR of HSPA1A in a YTHDF2- and HSF1-dependent manner, and highlighted the role of 5'UTR m6A methylation in regulating cap-independent translation, our findings do not support a 5'UTR-specific enrichment. However, we do observe that the methylation changes are still HSF1-dependent. Off note, the m6A-GI (m6A gene level) as a metric that captures the m6A enrichment of gene body excluding the 5’UTR, due to an overlap of transcription start site associated m6Am derived signal.

      Author response image 3.

      Fold change of m6A enrichment (m6A-IP / input) comparing 1.5 h heat shock and control conditions for 5UTR region and the rest of the gene body (CDS and 3UTR) in the 10 HSF! dependent stress response genes.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Dierks et al. investigate the impact of m6A RNA modifications on the mRNA life cycle, exploring the links between transcription, cytoplasmic RNA degradation, and subcellular RNA localization. Using transcriptome-wide data and mechanistic modelling of RNA metabolism, the authors demonstrate that a simplified model of m6A primarily affecting cytoplasmic RNA stability is sufficient to explain the nuclear-cytoplasmic distribution of methylated RNAs and the dynamic changes in m6A levels upon perturbation. Based on multiple lines of evidence, they propose that passive mechanisms based on the restricted decay of methylated transcripts in the cytoplasm play a primary role in shaping condition-specific m6A patterns and m6A dynamics. The authors support their hypothesis with multiple large-scale datasets and targeted perturbation experiments. Overall, the authors present compelling evidence for their model which has the potential to explain and consolidate previous observations on different m6A functions, including m6A-mediated RNA export.

      We thank the reviewer for the spot-on suggestions and comments on this manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript works with a hypothesis where the overall m6A methylation levels in cells are influenced by mRNA metabolism (sub-cellular localization and decay). The basic assumption is that m6A causes mRNA decay and this happens in the cytoplasm. They go on to experimentally test their model to confirm its predictions. This is confirmed by sub-cellular fractionation experiments which show high m6A levels in the nuclear RNA. Nuclear localized RNAs have higher methylation. Using a heat shock model, they demonstrate that RNAs with increased nuclear localization or transcription, are methylated at higher levels. Their overall argument is that changes in m6A levels are rather determined by passive processes that are influenced by RNA processing/metabolism. However, it should be considered that erasers have their roles under specific environments (early embryos or germline) and are not modelled by the cell culture systems used here.

      Strengths:

      This is a thought-provoking series of experiments that challenge the idea that active mechanisms of recruitment or erasure are major determinants for m6A distribution and levels.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for their thoughtful evaluation and constructive feedback.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Supplementary Figure 5A Data: Please double-check the label of the y-axis and the matching legend.

      We corrected this.

      (2) A better description of how the nuclear: cytoplasmic fractionation is performed.

      We added missing information to the Material & Methods section.

      (3) Rec 1hr or Rec 4hr instead of r1 and r4 to indicate the recovery.

      For brevity in Figure panels, we have chosen to stick with r1 and r4.

      (4) Figure 2D: are hours plotted?

      Plotted is the fold change (FC) of the calculated half-lives in hours (right). For the model (left) hours are the fold change of a dimension-less time-unit of the conditions with m6A facilitated degradation vs without. We have now clarified this in the legend.

      (5) How many genes do we have in each category? How many genes are you investigating each time?

      We thank the reviewer for this question. In all cases where we binned genes, we used equal-sized bins of genes that met the required coverage thresholds. We have reviewed the manuscript to ensure that the number of genes included in each analysis or the specific coverage thresholds used are clearly stated throughout the text.

      (6) Simulations on 1000 genes or 2000 genes?

      We thank the reviewer for this question and went over the text to correct for cases in which this was not clearly stated.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Specific comments:

      (1) The manuscript is very clear and well-written. However, some arguments are a bit difficult to understand. It would be helpful to clearly discriminate between active and passive events. For example, in the sentence: "For example, increasing the m6A deposition rate (⍺m6A) results in increased nuclear localization of a transcript, due to the increased cytoplasmic decay to which m6A-containing transcripts are subjected", I would directly write "increased relative nuclear localization" or "apparent increase in nuclear localization".

      We thank the reviewer for this careful observation. We have modified the quoted sentence, and also sought to correct additional instances of ambiguity in the text.

      Also, it is important to ensure that all relationships are described correctly. For example, in the sentence: "This model recovers the positive association between m6A and nuclear localization but gives rise to a positive association between m6A and decay", I think "decay" should be replaced with "stability". Similarly, the sentence: "Both the decrease in mRNA production rates and the reduction in export are predicted by m6ADyn to result in increasing m6A levels, ..." should it be "Both the increase in mRNA production and..."?

      We have corrected this.

      This sentence was difficult for me to understand: "Our findings raise the possibility that such changes could, at least in part, also be indirect and be mediated by the redistribution of mRNAs secondary to loss of cytoplasmic m6A-dependent decay." Please consider rephrasing it.

      We rephrased this sentence as suggested.

      (2) Figure 2d: "A final set of predictions of m6ADyn concerns m6A-dependent decay. m6ADyn predicts that (a) cytoplasmic genes will be more susceptible to increased m6A mediated decay, independent of their m6A levels, and (b) more methylated genes will undergo increased decay, independently of their relative localization (Figure 2d left) ... Strikingly, the experimental data supported the dual, independent impact of m6A levels and localization on mRNA stability (Figure 2d, right)."

      I do not understand, either from the text or from the figure, why the authors claim that m6A levels and localization independently affect mRNA stability. It is clear that "cytoplasmic genes will be more susceptible to increased m6A mediated decay", as they always show shorter half-lives (top-to-bottom perspective in Figure 2d). Nonetheless, as I understand it, the effect is not "independent of their m6A levels", as half-lives are clearly the shortest with the highest m6A levels (left-to-right perspective in each row).

      The two-dimensional heatmaps allow for exploring conditional independence between conditions. If an effect (in this case delta half-life) is a function of the X axis (in this case m6A levels), continuous increases should be seen going from one column to another. Conversely, if it is a function of the Y axis (in this case localization), a continuous effect should be observed from one row to another. Given that effects are generally observed both across rows and across columns, we concluded that the two act independently. The fact that half-life is shortest when genes are most cytoplasmic and have the highest m6A levels is therefore not necessarily inconsistent with two effects acting independently, but instead interpreted by us as the additive outcome of two independent effects. Having said this, a close inspection of this plot does reveal a very low impact of localization in contexts where m6A levels are very low, which could point at some degree of synergism between m6A levels and localization. We have therefore now revised the text to avoid describing the effects as "independent."

      (3) The methods part should be extended. For example, the description of the mRNA half-life estimation is far too short and lacks details. Also, information on the PCA analysis (Figure 4e & f) is completely missing. The code should be made available, at least for the differential model.

      We thank the reviewer for this point and expanded the methods section on mRNA stability analysis and PCA. Additionally, we added a supplementary file, providing R code for a basic m6ADyn simulation of m6A depleted to normal conditions (added Source Code 1).

      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wy42QGDEPdfT-OAnmH01Bzq83hWVrYLsjy_B4n CJGFA/edit?usp=sharing

      (4) Figure 4e, f: The authors use a PCA analysis to achieve an unbiased ranking of genes based on their m6A level changes. From the present text and figures, it is unclear how this PCA was performed. Besides a description in the methods sections, the authors could show additional evidence that the PCA results in a meaningful clustering and that PC1 indeed captures induced/reduced m6A level changes for high/low-PC1 genes.

      We have added passages to the text, hoping to clarify the analysis approach.

      (5) In Figure 4i, I was surprised about the m6A dynamics for the HSF1-independent genes, with two clusters of increasing or decreasing m6A levels across the time course. Can the model explain these changes? Since expression does not seem to be systematically altered, are there differences in subcellular localization between the two clusters after heat shock?

      A general aspect of our manuscript is attributing changes in m6A levels during heat stress to alterations in mRNA metabolism, such as production or export. As shown in Supplementary Figure 4d, even in WT conditions, m6A level changes are not strictly associated with apparent changes in expression, but we try to show that these are a reflection of the decreased export rate. In the specific context of HSF1-dependent stress response genes, we observe a clear co-occurrence of increased m6A levels with increased expression levels, which we propose to be attributed to enhanced production rates during heat stress. This suggests that transcriptional induction can drive the apparent rise in m6A levels. We try to control this with the HSF1 KO cells, in which the m6A level changes, as the increased production rates are absent for the specific cluster of stress-induced genes, further supporting the role of transcriptional activation in shaping m6A levels for these genes. For HSF1-independent genes, the HSF-KO cells mirror the behavior of WT conditions when looking at 500 highest and lowest PC1 (based on the prior analysis in WT cells), suggesting that changes in m6A levels are primarily driven by altered export rates rather than changes in production.

      Among the HSF1 targets, Hspa1a seems to show an inverse behaviour, with the highest methylation in ctrl, even though expression strongly goes up after heat shock. Is this related to the subcellular localization of this particular transcript before and after heat shock?

      Upon reviewing the heat stress target genes, we identified an issue with the proper labeling of the gene symbols, which has now been corrected (Figure 4 panel i). The inverse behavior observed for Hspb1 and partially for Hsp90aa1 is not accounted for by the m6ADyn model, and is indeed an interesting exception with respect to all other induced genes. Further investigation will be required to understand the methylation dynamics of Hspb1 during the response to heat stress.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Page 4. Indicate reference for "a more recent study finding reduced m6A levels in chromatin-associated RNA.".

      We thank the reviewer for this point and added two publications with a very recent one, both showing that chromatin-associated nascent RNA has less m6A methylation

      The manuscript is perhaps a bit too long. It took me a long time to get to the end. The findings can be clearly presented in a more concise manner and that will ensure that anyone starting to read will finish it. This is not a weakness, but a hope that the authors can reduce the text.

      We have respectfully chosen to maintain the length of the manuscript. The model, its predictions and their relationship to experimental observations are somewhat complex, and we felt that further reduction of the text would come at the expense of clarity.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This manuscript presents an interesting new framework (VARX) for simultaneously quantifying effective connectivity in brain activity during sensory stimulation and how that brain activity is being driven by that sensory stimulation. The core idea is to combine the Vector Autoregressive model that is often used to infer Granger-causal connectivity in brain data with an encoding model that maps the features of a sensory stimulus to that brain data. The authors do a nice job of explaining the framework. And then they demonstrate its utility through some simulations and some analysis of real intracranial EEG data recorded from subjects as they watched movies. They infer from their analyses that the functional connectivity in these brain recordings is essentially unaltered during movie watching, that accounting for the driving movie stimulus can protect one against misidentifying brain responses to the stimulus as functional connectivity, and that recurrent brain activity enhances and prolongs the putative neural responses to a stimulus.

      This manuscript presents an interesting new framework (VARX) for simultaneously quantifying effective connectivity in brain activity during sensory stimulation and how that brain activity is being driven by that sensory stimulation. Overall, I thought this was an interesting manuscript with some rich and intriguing ideas. That said, I had some concerns also - one potentially major - with the inferences drawn by the authors on the analyses that they carried out.

      Main comments:

      (1) My primary concern with the way the manuscript is written right now relates to the inferences that can be drawn from the framework. In particular, the authors want to assert that, by incorporating an encoding model into their framework, they can do a better job of accounting for correlated stimulus-driven activity in different brain regions, allowing them to get a clearer view of the underlying innate functional connectivity of the brain. Indeed, the authors say that they want to ask "whether, after removing stimulus-induced correlations, the intrinsic dynamic itself is preserved". This seems a very attractive idea indeed. However, it seems to hinge critically on the idea of fitting an encoding model that fully explains all of the stimulus-driven activity. In other words, if one fits an encoding model that only explains some of the stimulus-driven response, then the rest of the stimulus-driven response still remains in the data and will be correlated across brain regions and will appear as functional connectivity in the ongoing brain dynamics - according to this framework. This residual activity would thus be misinterpreted. In the present work, the authors parameterize their stimulus using fixation onsets, film cuts, and the audio envelope. All of these features seem reasonable and valid. However, they surely do not come close to capturing the full richness of the stimuli, and, as such, there is surely a substantial amount of stimulus-driven brain activity that is not being accounted for by their "B" model and that is being absorbed into their "A" model and misinterpreted as intrinsic connectivity. This seems to me to be a major limitation of the framework. Indeed, the authors flag this concern themselves by (briefly) raising the issue in the first paragraph of their caveats section. But I think it warrants much more attention and discussion.

      We agree. One can never be sure that all stimulus induced correlation is accounted for. We now formulate our question more cautiously: 

      “We will ask here whether, after removing some of the stimulus-induced correlations, the intrinsic dynamic is similar between stimulus and rest conditions.”

      We also highlight that one may expect the opposite result of what we found: 

      “A general observation of these studies is that a portion of the functional connectivity is preserved between rest and stimulus conditions, while some aspects are altered by the perceptual task [12,16], sometimes showing increased connectivity during the stimulus.[15].” 

      We have added a number of additional features (acoustic edges, fixation novelty, and motion) and more carefully characterize how much “connectivity” each one explains in the neural data: 

      “Removing any of the input features increased the effect size of recurrent connections compared to a model with all features (Fig. S4). We then cumulatively added each feature to the VARX model. Effect size monotonically decreases with each feature added (Fig. 3F). Decreases of effect size are significant when adding film cuts (ΔR=-3.6*10<sup>-6</sup>, p<0.0001, N=26, FDR correction, α=0.05) and the sound envelope (ΔR=-3.59*10<sup>-6</sup>, p=0.002, N=26, FDR correction, α=0.05). Thus, adding more input features progressively reduces the strength of recurrent “connections”.”

      We also added more data to the analysis comparing movies vs rest. We now use 4 different movie segments instead of 1 and find reduced recurrent connectivity during movies: 

      “The number of significant recurrent connections in  were significantly reduced during  movie watching compared to rest (Fig. 4C, fixed effect of stimulus: beta = -3.8*10<sup>-3</sup>, t(17) = -3.9, p<0.001), as is the effect size R (Fig. 4D, fixed effect of stimulus: beta = -2.5*10<sup>-4</sup>, t(17) = -4.1, p<0.001).”

      The additional analysis is described in the Methods section:

      “To compare recurrent connectivity between movies and the resting-state, we compute VARX models in four different movie segments of 5 minutes length to match the length of the resting state recording. We use the first and second half of ‘Despicable Me English’, the first half of ‘Inscapes’ and one of the ‘Monkey’ movies. 18 patients include each of these recordings. For each recording in each patient we compute the fraction of significant channels (p<0.001) and average the effect size R across all channel pairs, excluding the diagonal. We test the difference between movies and resting-state with linear mixed-effect models with stimulus as fixed effect (movie vs rest), and patient as random effect, using matlab’s fitlme() routine.”

      We had already seen this trend of decreasing connectivity during movie watching before, and reported on it cautiously as “largely unaltered”. We updated the Abstract correspondingly from “largely unaltered” to “reduced”: 

      “We also find that the recurrent connectivity during rest is reduced during movie watching.”

      We mentioned this possibility in the Discussion before, namely, that additional input features may reduce recurrent connectivity in the model, and therefore show a difference. We discuss this result now as follows: 

      “The stimulus features we included in our model capture mostly low-level visual and auditory input. It is possible that regressing out a richer stimulus characterization would have removed additional stimulus-induced correlation. While we do not expect that this would change the overall effect of a reduced number of “connections” during movie watching compared to resting state, the interpretation of changes in specific connections will be affected by the choice of features. For example, in sensory cortices, higher recurrent connectivity in the LFP during rest would be consistent with the more synchronized state we saw in rest, as reflected by larger oscillatory activity. Synchronization in higher-order cortices, however, is expected to be more strongly influenced by semantic content of external input.”

      In the Discussion we expand on what might happen if additional stimulus features were to be included into the model:  

      “Previous literature does often not distinguish between intrinsic dynamics and extrinsic effects. By factoring out some of the linear effects of the external input we conclude here that recurrent connectivity is reduced in average. From our prior work49, we know that the stimulus features we included here capture a substantial amount of variance across the brain in intracranial EEG. Arguably, however, the video stimuli had rich semantic information that was not captured by the low-level features used here. Adding such semantic features could have further reduced shared variance, and consequently further reduced average recurrent connectivity in the model.”

      “Similarities and differences between rest and movie watching conditions reported previously, do not draw a firm conclusion as to whether overall “functional connectivity” is increased or reduced. Results seem to depend on the time scale of neural activity analyzed, and the specific brain networks [12,16,63]. However, in fMRI, the conclusion seems to be that functional connectivity during movies is stronger than during rest[15], which likely results from stimulus induced correlations. The VARX model can remove some of the effects of these stimuli, revealing that average recurrent connectivity may be reduced rather than increased during stimulus processing.”

      And in the conclusion we now write: 

      “The model revealed a small but significant decrease of recurrent connectivity when watching movies.”

      (2) Related to the previous comment, the authors make what seems to me to be a complex and important point on page 6 (of the pdf). Specifically, they say "Note that the extrinsic effects captured with filters B are specific (every stimulus dimension has a specific effect on each brain area), whereas the endogenous dynamic propagates this initial effect to all connected brain areas via matrix A, effectively mixing and adding the responses of all stimulus dimensions. Therefore, this factorization separates stimulus-specific effects from the shared endogenous dynamic." It seems to me that the interpretation of the filter B (which is analogous to the "TRF") for the envelope, say, will be affected by the fact that the matrix A is likely going to be influenced by all sorts of other stimulus features that are not included in the model. In other words, residual stimulus-driven correlations that are captured in A might also distort what is going on in B, perhaps. So, again, I worry about interpreting the framework unless one can guarantee a near-perfect encoding model that can fully account for the stimulus-driven activity. I'd love to hear the authors' thoughts on this. (On this issue - the word "dominates" on page 12 seems very strong.)

      This is an interesting point we had not thought about. After some theoretical considerations and some empirical testing we conclude that the effect of missing inputs is relevant, but can be easily anticipated. 

      We have added the following to the Results section explaining and demonstrated empirically the effects of adding features and signals to the model: 

      “As with conventional linear regression, the estimate in B for a particular input and output channel is not affected by which other signals are included in or , provided those other inputs are uncorrelated. We confirmed this here empirically by removing dimensions from (Fig. S11A), and by adding uncorrelated input to (Fig. S11B, adding fixation onset does not affect the estimate for auditory envelope responses). In other words, to estimate B, we do not require all possible stimulus features and all brain activity to be measured and included in the model. In contrast, B does vary when correlated inputs are added to (Fig. S11C, adding acoustic edges changes the auditory envelope response). Evidently the auditory envelope and acoustic edges are tightly coupled in time, whereas fixation onset is not. When a correlated input is missing (acoustic edges) then the other input (auditory envelope) absorbs the correlated variance, thus capturing the combined response of both.”

      (3) Regarding the interpretation of the analysis of connectivity between movies and rest... that concludes that the intrinsic connectivity pattern doesn't really differ. This is interesting. But it seems worth flagging that this analysis doesn't really account for the specific dynamics in the network that could differ quite substantially between movie watching and rest, right? At the moment, it is all correlational. But the dynamics within the network could be very different between stimulation and rest I would have thought.

      As discussed above, with more data and additional stimulus features we now see detectable changes in the connectivity. The example in Figure 4G also shows that specific connections may change in different directions, while overall the strength of connections slightly decreases during movie watching compared to rest. We added the following to the results:

      “While the effect size decreases on average, there is some variation across different brain areas (Fig. 4E-G).”

      But even if the connectivity were unchanged, the activity on this network can be different with varying inputs. We actually also saw that there were changes in the variability of activity (Figs. 6 and S13) that may point to non-linear effects. It seems that injecting the input will cause an overall change in power, which can be explained by a relatively simple non-linear gain adaptation. These effects are already discussed at some length in the paper. 

      (4) I didn't really understand the point of comparing the VARX connectivity estimate with the spare-inverse covariance method (Figure 2D). What was the point of this? What is a reader supposed to appreciate from it about the validity or otherwise of the VARX approach?

      We added the following motivation and clarification on this topic: 

      “To test the descriptive validity [43] of the VARX model we follow the approach of recovering structural connectivity from functional activity in simulation. [44] Specifically, we will compare the recurrent connectivity A derived from brain activity simulated assuming a given structural connectivity, i.e. we ask, can the VARX model recover the underlying structural connectivity, at least in a simulated whole-brian model with known connectivity? … For comparison, we also used the sparse-inverse covariance method to recover connectivity from the correlation matrix (functional connectivity). This method is considered state-of-the-art as it is more sensitive than other methods in detecting structural connections [48]”

      (5) I think the VARX model section could have benefitted a bit from putting some dimensions on some of the variables. In particular, I struggled a little to appreciate the dimensionality of A. I am assuming it has to involve both time lags AND electrode channels so that you can infer Granger causality (by including time) between channels. Including a bit more detail on the dimensionality and shape of A might be helpful for others who want to implement the VARX model.

      Your assumption is correct. We added the following to make this easier for readers: 

      “Therefore, A  has dimensions B has dimensions , where are the dimensions of and respectively.”

      (6) A second issue I had with the inferences drawn by the authors was a difficulty in reconciling certain statements in the manuscript. For example, in the abstract, the authors write "We find that the recurrent connectivity during rest is largely unaltered during movie watching." And they also write that "Failing to account for ... exogenous inputs, leads to spurious connections in the intrinsic "connectivity".

      Perhaps this segment of the abstract needed more explanation. To enhance clarity we have also changed the ordering of the findings. Hopefully this is more clear now: 

      “This model captures the extrinsic effect of the stimulus and separates that from the intrinsic effect of the recurrent brain dynamic. We find that the intrinsic dynamic enhances and prolongs the neural responses to scene cuts, eye movements, and sounds. Failing to account for these extrinsic inputs, leads to spurious recurrent connections that govern the intrinsic dynamic. We also find that the recurrent connectivity during rest is reduced during movie watching.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors apply the recently developed VARX model, which explicitly models intrinsic dynamics and the effect of extrinsic inputs, to simulated data and intracranial EEG recordings. This method provides a directed method of 'intrinsic connectivity'. They argue this model is better suited to the analysis of task neuroimaging data because it separates the intrinsic and extrinsic activity. They show: that intrinsic connectivity is largely unaltered during a movie-watching task compared to eyes open rest; intrinsic noise is reduced in the task; and there is intrinsic directed connectivity from sensory to higher-order brain areas.

      Strengths:

      (1) The paper tackles an important issue with an appropriate method.

      (2) The authors validated their method on data simulated with a neural mass model.

      (3) They use intracranial EEG, which provides a direct measure of neuronal activity.

      (4) Code is made publicly available and the paper is written well.

      Weaknesses:

      It is unclear whether a linear model is adequate to describe brain data. To the author's credit, they discuss this in the manuscript. Also, the model presented still provides a useful and computationally efficient method for studying brain data - no model is 'the truth'.

      We fully agree and have nothing much to add to this, except to highlight the benefit of a linear model even as explanation for non-linear phenomena: 

      “The [noise-quenching] effect we found here can be explained by a VARX model with the addition of a divisive gain adaptation mechanism … The noise-quenching result and its explanation via gain adaptation shows the benefit of using a parsimonious linear model, which can suggest nonlinear mechanisms as simple corrections from linearity.”

      Appraisal of whether the authors achieve their aims:

      As a methodological advancement highlighting a limitation of existing approaches and presenting a new model to overcome it, the authors achieve their aim. Generally, the claims/conclusions are supported by the results.

      The wider neuroscience claims regarding the role of intrinsic dynamics and external inputs in affecting brain data could benefit from further replication with another independent dataset and in a variety of tasks - but I understand if the authors wanted to focus on the method rather than the neuroscientific claims in this manuscript.

      We fully agree. We added the following to the Discussion section:

      “Future studies should test if our findings replicate in an independent iEEG datasets, including active tasks and whether they generalize to other neuroimaging modalities.”

      Impact:

      The authors propose a useful new approach that solves an important problem in the analysis of task neuroimaging data. I believe the work can have a significant impact on the field.

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor comments:

      (1) Did you mean "less" or "fewer" in the following sentence "..larger values lead to overfitting, i.e. less significant connections..."?

      We mean fewer. Thanks for catching this. 

      (2) I didn't see any equations showing how the regularization parameter lambda is incorporated into the framework.

      We prefer the math and details of the algorithm to an earlier paper that has now been published. Instead we added the following clarification: 

      “The VARX models were fitted to data with the matlab version of the code31 using conventional L2-norm regularization. The corresponding regularization parameter was set to 𝜆=0.3.”

      (3) I think some readers of this might struggle to understand the paragraph beginning

      "Connectivity plots are created with nilearn's plot_connectome() function...". It's all quite opaque for the uninitiated.

      Agreed. We now write more simply: 

      “Connectivity plots in Fig. 4 were created with routines from the nilearn toolbox [51].”

      (4) The paragraph beginning "The length of responses for Figure 5..." is also very opaque and could do with being explained more fully. Or this text could be removed from the methods and incorporated into the relevant results section where you actually discuss this analysis.

      Thank you for flagging this. We expand on the details in the Methods as follows: 

      “The length of responses for each channel in B and H to external inputs in Fig. 5 is computed with Matlab's findpeaks() function. This function returns the full-width at half of the peak maximum minus baseline. Power in each channel is computed as the squares of the responses averaged over the time window that was analyzed (0-0.6s).”

      (5) I think adding some comments to the text or caption related to Figures 3C and 3D would be helpful so readers can understand these numbers a bit better. One seems to be the delta log p value and the other is the delta ratio. What does positive or negative mean? Readers might appreciate a little more help.

      We expanded it as follows, hopefully this helps: 

      “C) difference of log for VAX model without minus with inputs (panel A - B). Both models are fit to the same data. D) Thresholding panels A and B at p<0.0001 gives a fraction of significant connections. Here we show the fraction of significant channels for models with and without input. Each line is a patient with color indicating increase or decrease  E) Mean over all channels for VARX models with and without inputs. Each line is a patient.”

      (6) It is not clear what the colors mean in Figures 4 E, F, G.

      We updated the color scheme for those figure panels and carefully explained it in the caption. Please see the manuscript for updated figure 4.   

      (7) It might be nice to slightly unpack what you mean by the "variability of the internal dynamic" and why it can be equated with the power of the innovation process.

      In the methods we added the following clarification right after defining the VARX model: 

      “The innovation process captures the internal variability of the model. Without it, repeating the same input would always result in a fixed deterministic output .”

      In the results section we added the following: 

      “As a metric of internal variability we measured the power of the intrinsic innovation process , which captures the unobserved “random” brain activity which leads to variations in the responses.”

      (8) Typos etc.

      a) "... has been attributed to variability of ongoing dynamic"

      b) The manuscript refers to a Figure 3G, but there is no Figure 3G.

      c) n_a = n_a = 1. Is that a typo?

      d) fiction

      Thank you for catching these. We fixed them. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I'm curious about the authors' opinions on the conditions studied. Naively, eyes open rest and passive movie watching seem like similar conditions - were the authors expecting to see a difference with VARX? Do the authors expect that they would see bigger differences when there is a larger difference in sensory input, e.g. eyes closed rest vs movie watching? Given the authors are arguing the need to explicitly model external inputs, a real data example contrasting two very different external inputs might better demonstrate the model's utility.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We added an analysis of eyes-closed rest recordings, available in 8 patients (Fig. S8). The difference between movie and rest is indeed more pronounced than for eyes open rest. The result is described in the methods:

      “In a subset of patients with eyes-closed resting state we find the same effect, that is qualitatively more pronounced (Fig. S8).”

      This complements our updated finding of a difference between movie and eyes-open rest that does show a significant difference after adding more data to this analysis. The results have been updated as following

      “The number of significant recurrent connections in  were significantly reduced during  movie watching compared to rest (Fig. 4C, fixed effect of stimulus:

      beta = -3.8*10<sup>-3</sup>, t(17) = -3.9, p<0.001), as is the effect size R (Fig. 4D, fixed effect of stimulus: beta = -2.5*10<sup>-4</sup>, t(17) = -4.1, p<0.001).”

      The abstract has been updated accordingly:

      “We also find that the recurrent connectivity during rest is reduced during movie watching.”

      (2) It would also have been interesting to see how the proposed model compares to DCM - however, I understand if the authors wanted to focus on their model rather than a comparison with other models.

      We did not try the DCM for a number of reasons. 1) it does not allow for delays in the model dynamic (i.e. the entire time course of the response has to be captured by the recurrent dynamic of a single time step A). 2. It is computationally prohibitive and would not allow us to analyze large channel counts. 3. The available code is custom made for fMRI or EEG analysis with very specified signal generation models that do not obviously apply to iEEG. We added the following to the Discussion of the CDM:  

      “Similar to the VARX model, DCM includes intrinsic and extrinsic effects A and B. However, the modeling is limited to first-order dynamics (i.e. η<sub>a</sub>=η<sub>b</sub>=1). Thus, prolonged responses have to be entirely captured with a first-order recurrent A. … In contrast, here we have analyzed up to 300 channels per subject across the brain, which would be prohibitive with DCM. By analyzing a large number of recordings we were able to draw more general conclusions about whole-brain activity.”

      (3) I believe improving the consistency of the terminology used would improve the manuscript:

      a) Intrinsic dynamics vs intrinsic connectivity vs recurrent connectivity:

      - The term 'intrinsic dynamic' is first introduced in paragraph 3 of the introduction. An explicit definition of is meant by this term would benefit the manuscript.

      - Sometimes the terminology changes to 'intrinsic connectivity' or 'recurrent connectivity'. An explicit definition of these terms (if they refer to different things) would also benefit the manuscript.

      We had used the term “intrinsic” and “recurrent” interchangeably. We now try to mostly say “intrinsic dynamic” when we talk about the more general phenomenon or recurrent brain dynamic, while using “recurrent connectivity” when we refer to the model parameters A. 

      We provide now a definition already at the start of the Abstract: 

      “Sensory stimulation of the brain reverberates in its recurrent neural networks. However, current computational models of brain activity do not separate immediate sensory responses from this intrinsic dynamic. We apply a vector-autoregressive model with external input (VARX), combining the concepts of “functional connectivity” and “encoding models”, to intracranial recordings in humans. This model captures the extrinsic effect of the stimulus and separates that from the intrinsic effect of the recurrent brain dynamic.”

      And at the start of the introduction: 

      “The primate brain is highly interconnected between and within brain areas. … We will refer to the dynamic driven by this recurrent architecture as the intrinsic dynamic of the brain.”

      b) Intrinsic vs Endogenous and Extrinsic vs Exogenous:

      - Footnote 1 defines the 'intrinsic' and 'extrinsic' terminology.

      - However, there are instances where the authors switch back to endogenous/exogenous.

      - Methods section: "Overall system response", paragraph 2.

      - Results section: "Recurrent dynamic enhances and prolongs stimulus responses".

      - Conclusions section.

      With a foot in both neuroscience and systems identification, it’s a hard habit to break. Thanks for catching it. We searched and replaced all instances of endogenous and exogenous.  

      (4) Methods:

      a) The model equation would be clearer if the convolution was written out fully. (I had to read reference 1 to understand the model.).

      We now spell out the full equation and hope it's not too cumbersome to read:  

      “For the th signal channel the recurrence of the VARX model is given by: 

      b) How is an individual dimension omitted in the reduced model, are the values in the y, x set to zero?

      No, it is actually removed from the linear prediction. We added: 

      “… omitted from the prediction …”

      c) "The p-value quantifies the probability that a specific connection in A or B is zero" - for each of n_a/n_b filters?

      d) It should be clarified that D is a vector.

      We hope the following clarification addresses both these questions: 

      “The p-value quantifies the probability that a specific connection in either A or B is zero. Therefore, D,P and R<sup>2</sup> all have dimensions or for A or B  respectively.”

      (5) Results:

      a) Stimulus-induced reduction of noise in the intrinsic activity: would be good to define the frequency range for theta and beta in paragraph 2.

      Added. 

      b) Neural mass model simulation:

      - A brief description of what was simulated is needed.

      We basically ran the sample code of the neurolib library. With that in mind maybe the description we already provide is sufficient:  

      “We used the default model simulation of the neurolib python library (using their sample code for the “ALNModel”), which is a mean-field approximation of adaptive exponential integrate-and-fire neurons. This model can generate simulated mean firing rates in 80 brain areas based on connectivity and delay matrices determined with diffusion tensor imaging (DTI). We used 5 min of “resting state” activity (no added stimulus, simulated at 0.1ms resolution, subsequently downsampled to 100Hz).”

      - It's not clear to me why the A matrix should match the structural connectivity.

      We added the following introduction to make the purpose of this simulation clear:

      “To test the descriptive validity [43] of the VARX model we follow the approach of recovering structural connectivity from functional activity in simulation. [44] Specifically, we will compare the “connectivity” A derived from brain activity simulated assuming a given structural connectivity, i.e. we ask, can the VARX model recover the underlying structural connectivity, at least in a simulated whole-brian model with known connectivity?”

      - It would be interesting to see the inferred A matrix.

      We added a Supplement figure for this and the following: 

      “The VARX model was estimated with n<sub>a</sub>=2, and no input. The resulting estimate for A is dominated by the diagonal elements that capture the autocorrelation within brain areas (Fig. S1).”

      - How many filters were used here?

      No input filters were used for this simulation:

      We used 5 min of “resting state” activity (no added stimulus, simulated at 0.1ms resolution, subsequently downsampled to 100Hz). 

      c) Intracranial EEG:

      - It's not clear how overfitting was measured and how the selection of the number of filters (n_a and n_b) was done.

      We have removed the statement about overfitting. Mostly the word is used in the context of testing on a separate dataset, which we did not do here. So this “overfitting” can be confusing. Instead we used the analytic p-value as indication that a larger model order is not supported by the data. We write this now as follows: 

      “Increasing the number of delays n<sub>a</sub>, increases estimated effect size R (Fig. S3A,B), however, larger values lead to fewer significant connections (Fig. S3C). Significance (p-value) is computed analytically, i.e. non-parametrically, based on deviance. Values around n<sub>a</sub>=6 time delays appear to be the largest model order supported by this statistical analysis.”

      d) Figure 1:

      - Typo: "auto-regressive"

      Fixed. Thanks for catching that. 

      - LFP and BHA in C are defined much later in the text, would be useful to define these in the caption. o Shouldn't B (the VARX model parameter) be a 2x3 matrix for different time lags?

      Hopefully the following clarifications address both these points: 

      “C) Example of neural signal y(t) recorded at a single location in the brain. We will analyze local field potentials (LFP) and broad-band high frequency activity (BHA) in separate analyses.  D) Examples of filters B for individual feed-forward connections between an extrinsic input and a specific recording location in the brain.”

      (6) Discussion:

      I could not find Muller et al 2016 listed in the references.

      Added. Thanks for catching that omission. 

      Additional edits prompted by reviewers, but not in the context of any particular comment.

      While reviewers did not raise this following point, we felt the need clarify the terminology in the Methods to make sure there is not misunderstanding in the proposed interpretation of the model: 

      “We will refer to the filters in matrix A and B and as recurrent and feed-forward “connections”, but avoid the use of the word “causal” which can be misleading.”

      In addressing questions to Figure 4, we noticed that there is quite a bit of variability across patients, so the analysis for Figure 4 and 7 which combines data across patients now accounts for a random effect of patient (previously we have used mean values for repeated measures). We added the following to the Methods to explain this:

      “To compare recurrent connectivity between movies and the resting-state (in Fig. 4), we compute VARX models in four different movie segments of 5 minutes length to match the length of the resting state recording. We use the first and second half of ‘Despicable Me English’, the first half of ‘Inscapes’ and one of the ‘Monkey’ movies. 18 patients include each of these recordings. For each recording in each patient we compute the fraction of significant channels (p<0.001) and average the effect size R across all channel pairs, excluding the diagonal. We test the difference between movies and resting-state with linear mixed-effect models with stimulus as fixed effect (movie vs rest), and patient as random effect (to account for the repeated measures for the different video segments), using matlab’s fitlme() routine. For the analysis of asymmetry of recurrent connectivity (in Fig. 4) we also used a mixed-effect model with T1w/T2w ratio as fixed effect and patients as random effect (to account for the repeated measures in multiple brain locations).”

      All analyses were rerun with more data (eyes closed resting) and 2 additional patients that have become available since the first submission. Therefore all figures and statistics have been updated throughout the paper. Other than the difference between movies and resting state which was trending before and is now significant, no results changed.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Mackie and colleagues compare chemosensory preferences between C. elegans and P. pacificus, and the cellular and molecular mechanisms underlying them. The nematodes have overlapping and distinct preferences for different salts. Although P. pacificus lacks the lsy-6 miRNA important for establishing asymmetry of the left/right ASE salt-sensing neurons in C. elegans, the authors find that P. pacificus ASE homologs achieve molecular (receptor expression) and functional (calcium response) asymmetry by alternative means. This work contributes an important comparison of how these two nematodes sense salts and highlights that evolution can find different ways to establish asymmetry in small nervous systems to optimize the processing of chemosensory cues in the environment.

      Strengths:

      The authors use clear and established methods to record the response of neurons to chemosensory cues. They were able to show clearly that ASEL/R are functionally asymmetric in P. pacificus, and combined with genetic perturbation establish a role for che-1-dependent gcy-22.3 in in the asymmetric response to NH<sub>4</sub>Cl.

      Weaknesses:

      The mechanism of lsy-6-independent establishment of ASEL/R asymmetry in P. pacificus remains uncharacterized.

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the novel contributions of our work in revealing the existence of alternative pathways for establishing neuronal lateral asymmetry without the lsy-6 miRNA in a divergent nematode species. We are certainly encouraged now to search for genetic factors that alter the exclusive asymmetric expression of gcy-22.3.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Mackie et al. investigate gustatory behavior and the neural basis of gustation in the predatory nematode Pristionchus pacificus. First, they show that the behavioral preferences of P. pacificus for gustatory cues differ from those reported for C. elegans. Next, they investigate the molecular mechanisms of salt sensing in P. pacificus. They show that although the C. elegans transcription factor gene che-1 is expressed specifically in the ASE neurons, the P. pacificus che-1 gene is expressed in the Ppa-ASE and Ppa-AFD neurons. Moreover, che-1 plays a less critical role in salt chemotaxis in P. pacificus than C. elegans. Chemogenetic silencing of Ppa-ASE and Ppa-AFD neurons results in more severe chemotaxis defects. The authors then use calcium imaging to show that both Ppa-ASE and Ppa-AFD neurons respond to salt stimuli. Calcium imaging experiments also reveal that the left and right Ppa-ASE neurons respond differently to salts, despite the fact that P. pacificus lacks lsy-6, a microRNA that is important for ASE left/right asymmetry in C. elegans. Finally, the authors show that the receptor guanylate cyclase gene Ppa-gcy-23.3 is expressed in the right Ppa-ASE neuron (Ppa-ASER) but not the left Ppa-ASE neuron (Ppa-ASEL) and is required for some of the gustatory responses of Ppa-ASER, further confirming that the Ppa-ASE neurons are asymmetric and suggesting that Ppa-GCY-23.3 is a gustatory receptor. Overall, this work provides insight into the evolution of gustation across nematode species. It illustrates how sensory neuron response properties and molecular mechanisms of cell fate determination can evolve to mediate species-specific behaviors. However, the paper would be greatly strengthened by a direct comparison of calcium responses to gustatory cues in C. elegans and P. pacificus, since the comparison currently relies entirely on published data for C. elegans, where the imaging parameters likely differ. In addition, the conclusions regarding Ppa-AFD neuron function would benefit from additional confirmation of AFD neuron identity. Finally, how prior salt exposure influences gustatory behavior and neural activity in P. pacificus is not discussed.

      Strengths:

      (1) This study provides exciting new insights into how gustatory behaviors and mechanisms differ in nematode species with different lifestyles and ecological niches. The results from salt chemotaxis experiments suggest that P. pacificus shows distinct gustatory preferences from C. elegans. Calcium imaging from Ppa-ASE neurons suggests that the response properties of the ASE neurons differ between the two species. In addition, an analysis of the expression and function of the transcription factor Ppa-che-1 reveals that mechanisms of ASE cell fate determination differ in C. elegans and P. pacificus, although the ASE neurons play a critical role in salt sensing in both species. Thus, the authors identify several differences in gustatory system development and function across nematode species.

      (2) This is the first calcium imaging study of P. pacificus, and it offers some of the first insights into the evolution of gustatory neuron function across nematode species.

      (3) This study addresses the mechanisms that lead to left/right asymmetry in nematodes. It reveals that the ASER and ASEL neurons differ in their response properties, but this asymmetry is achieved by molecular mechanisms that are at least partly distinct from those that operate in C. elegans. Notably, ASEL/R asymmetry in P. pacificus is achieved despite the lack of a P. pacificus lsy-6 homolog.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors observe only weak attraction of C. elegans to NaCl. These results raise the question of whether the weak attraction observed is the result of the prior salt environment experienced by the worms. More generally, this study does not address how prior exposure to gustatory cues shapes gustatory responses in P. pacificus. Is salt sensing in P. pacificus subject to the same type of experience-dependent modulation as salt sensing in C. elegans?

      We tested if starving animals in the presence of a certain salt will result in those animals avoiding it. However, under our experimental conditions we were unable to detect experiencedependent modulation either in P. pacificus or in C. elegans.

      Author response image 1.

      (2) A key finding of this paper is that the Ppa-CHE-1 transcription factor is expressed in the PpaAFD neurons as well as the Ppa-ASE neurons, despite the fact that Ce-CHE-1 is expressed specifically in Ce-ASE. However, additional verification of Ppa-AFD neuron identity is required. Based on the image shown in the manuscript, it is difficult to unequivocally identify the second pair of CHE-1-positive head neurons as the Ppa-AFD neurons. Ppa-AFD neuron identity could be verified by confocal imaging of the CHE-1-positive neurons, co-expression of Ppa-che1p::GFP with a likely AFD reporter, thermotaxis assays with Ppa-che-1 mutants, and/or calcium imaging from the putative Ppa-AFD neurons.

      In the revised manuscript, we provide additional and, we believe, conclusive evidence for our correct identification of Ppa-AFD neuron being another CHE-1 expressing neuron. Specifically, we have constructed and characterized 2 independent reporter strains of Ppa-ttx-1, a putative homolog of the AFD terminal selector in C. elegans. There are two pairs of ttx-1p::rfp expressing amphid neurons. The anterior neuronal pair have finger-like endings that are unique for AFD neurons compared to the dendritic endings of the 11 other amphid neuron pairs (no neuron type has a wing morphology in P. pacificus). Their cell bodies are detected in the newly tagged TTX-1::ALFA strain that co-localize with the anterior pair of che-1::gfp-expressing amphid neurons (n=15, J2-Adult).

      We note that the identity of the posterior pair of amphid neurons differs between the ttx-1p::rfp promoter fusion reporter and TTX-1::ALFA strains– the ttx-1p::rfp posterior amphid pair overlaps with the gcy-22.3p::gfp reporter (ASER) but the TTX-1::ALFA posterior amphid pair do not overlap with the posterior pair of che-1::gfp-expressing amphid neurons (n=15). Given that there are 4 splice forms detected by RNAseq (Transcriptome Assembly Trinity, 2016; www.pristionchus.org), this discrepancy between the Ppa-ttx-1 promoter fusion reporter and the endogenous expression of the Ppa-TTX-1 C-terminally tagged to the only splice form containing Exon 18 (ppa_stranded_DN30925_c0_g1_i5, the most 3’ exon) may be due to differential expression of different splice variants in AFD, ASE, and another unidentified amphid neuron types.  

      Although we also made reporter strains of two putative AFD markers, Ppa-gcy-8.1 (PPA24212)p::gfp; csuEx101 and Ppa-gcy-8.2 (PPA41407)p::gfp; csuEx100, neither reporter showed neuronal expression.

      (3) Loss of Ppa-che-1 causes a less severe phenotype than loss of Ce-che-1. However, the loss of Ppa-che-1::RFP expression in ASE but not AFD raises the question of whether there might be additional start sites in the Ppa-che-1 gene downstream of the mutation sites. It would be helpful to know whether there are multiple isoforms of Ppa-che-1, and if so, whether the exon with the introduced frameshift is present in all isoforms and results in complete loss of Ppa-CHE-1 protein.

      According to www.pristionchus.org (Transcriptome Assembly Trinity), there is only a single detectable splice form by RNAseq. Once we have a Ppa-AFD-specific marker, we would be able to determine how much of the AFD terminal effector identify (e.g. expression of gcy-8 paralogs) is effected by the loss of Ppa-che-1 function.

      (4) The authors show that silencing Ppa-ASE has a dramatic effect on salt chemotaxis behavior. However, these data lack control with histamine-treated wild-type animals, with the result that the phenotype of Ppa-ASE-silenced animals could result from exposure to histamine dihydrochloride. This is an especially important control in the context of salt sensing, where histamine dihydrochloride could alter behavioral responses to other salts.

      We have inadvertently left out this important control. Because the HisCl1 transgene is on a randomly segregating transgene array, we have scored worms with and without the transgene expressing the co-injection marker (Ppa-egl-20p::rfp, a marker in the tail) to show that the presence of the transgene is necessary for the histamine-dependent knockdown of NH<sub>4</sub>Br attraction. This control is added as Figure S2.

      (5) The calcium imaging data in the paper suggest that the Ppa-ASE and Ce-ASE neurons respond differently to salt solutions. However, to make this point, a direct comparison of calcium responses in C. elegans and P. pacificus using the same calcium indicator is required. By relying on previously published C. elegans data, it is difficult to know how differences in growth conditions or imaging conditions affect ASE responses. In addition, the paper would be strengthened by additional quantitative analysis of the calcium imaging data. For example, the paper states that 25 mM NH<sub>4</sub>Cl evokes a greater response in ASEL than 250 mM NH<sub>4</sub>Cl, but a quantitative comparison of the maximum responses to the two stimuli is not shown.

      We understand that side-by-side comparisons with C. elegans using the same calcium indicator would lend more credence to the differences we observed in P. pacificus versus published findings in C. elegans from the past decades, but are not currently in a position to conduct these experiments in parallel.

      (6) It would be helpful to examine, or at least discuss, the other P. pacificus paralogs of Ce-gcy22. Are they expressed in Ppa-ASER? How similar are the different paralogs? Additional discussion of the Ppa-gcy-22 gene expansion in P. pacificus would be especially helpful with respect to understanding the relatively minor phenotype of the Ppa-gcy-22.3 mutants.

      In P. pacificus, there are 5 gcy-22-like paralogs and 3 gcy-7-like paralogs, which together form a subclade that is clearly distinct from the 1-1 Cel-gcy-22, Cel-gcy-5, and Cel-gcy-7 orthologs in a phylogenetic tree containing all rGCs in P. pacificus, C. elegans, and C. briggssae (Hong et al, eLife, 2019). In Ortiz et al (2006 and 2009), Cel-gcy-22 stands out from other ASER-type gcy genes (gcy-1, gcy-4, gcy-5) in being located on a separate chromosome (Chr. V) as well as in having a wider range of defects in chemoattraction towards salt ions. Given that the 5 P. pacificus gcy-22-like paralogs are located on 3 separate chromosomes without clear synteny to their C. elegans counterparts, it is likely that the gcy-22 paralogs emerged from independent and repeated gene duplication events after the separation of these Caenorhabditis and Pristionchus lineages. Our reporter strains for two other P. pacificus gcy-22-like paralogs either did not exhibit expression in amphid neurons (Ppa-gcy-22.1p::GFP, ) or exhibited expression in multiple neuron types in addition to a putative ASE neuron (Ppa-gcy-22.4p::GFP). We have expanded the discussion on the other P. pacificus gcy-22 paralogs.

      (7) The calcium imaging data from Ppa-ASE is quite variable. It would be helpful to discuss this variability. It would also be helpful to clarify how the ASEL and ASER neurons are being conclusively identified during calcium imaging.

      For each animal, the orientation of the nose and vulva were recorded and used as a guide to determine the ventral and dorsal sides of the worm, and subsequently, the left and right sides of the worm. Accounting for the plane of focus of the neuron pairs as viewed through the microscope, it was then determined whether the imaged neuron was the worm’s left or right neuron of each pair. We added this explanation to the Methods.

      (8) More information about how the animals were treated prior to calcium imaging would be helpful. In particular, were they exposed to salt solutions prior to imaging? In addition, the animals are in an M9 buffer during imaging - does this affect calcium responses in Ppa-ASE and Ppa-AFD? More information about salt exposure, and how this affects neuron responses, would be very helpful.

      Prior to calcium imaging, animals were picked from their cultivation plates (using an eyelash pick to minimize bacteria transfer) and placed in loading solution (M9 buffer with 0.1% Tween20 and 1.5 mM tetramisole hydrochloride, as indicated in the Method) to immobilize the animals until they were visibly completely immobilized.

      (9) In Figure 6, the authors say that Ppa-gcy-22.3::GFP expression is absent in the Ppa-che1(ot5012) mutant. However, based on the figure, it looks like there is some expression remaining. Is there a residual expression of Ppa-gcy-22.3::GFP in ASE or possibly ectopic expression in AFD? Does Ppa-che-1 regulate rGC expression in AFD? It would be helpful to address the role of Ppa-che-1 in AFD neuron differentiation.

      In Figure 6C, the green signal is autofluorescence in the gut, and there is no GFP expression detected in any of the 55 che-1(-) animals we examined. We are currently developing AFDspecific rGC markers (gcy-8 homologs) to be able to examine the role of Ppa-CHE-1 in regulating AFD identity.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Abstract: 'how does sensory diversity prevail within this neuronal constraint?' - could be clearer as 'numerical constraint' or 'neuron number constraint'.

      We have clarified this passage as ‘…constraint in neuron number’.

      (2) 'Sensory neurons in the Pristionchus pacificus' - should get rid of the 'the'.

      We have removed the ‘the’.

      (3) Figure 2: We have had some good results with the ALFA tag using a similar approach (tagging endogenous loci using CRISPR). I'm not sure if it is a Pristionchus thing, or if it is a result of our different protocols, but our staining appears stronger with less background. We use an adaptation of the Finney-Ruvkin protocol, which includes MeOH in the primary fixation with PFA, and overcomes the cuticle barrier with some LN2 cracking, DTT, then H2O2. No collagenase. If you haven't tested it already it might be worth comparing the next time you have a need for immunostaining.

      We appreciate this suggestion. Our staining protocol uses paraformaldehyde fixation. We observed consistent and clear staining in only 4 neurons in CHE-1::ALFA animals but more background signals from TTX-1::ALFA in Figure 2I-J in that could benefit from improved immunostaining protocol.

      (4) Page 6: 'By crossing the che-1 reporter transgene into a che-1 mutant background (see below), we also found that che-1 autoregulates its own expression (Figure 2F), as it does in C. elegans' - it took me some effort to understand this. It might make it easier for future readers if this is explained more clearly.

      We understand this confusion and have changed the wording along with a supporting table with a more detailed account of che-1p::RFP expression in both ASE and AFD neurons in wildtype and che-1(-) backgrounds in the Results.

      (5) Line numbers would make it easier for reviewers to reference the text.

      We have added line numbers.

      (6) Page 7: is 250mM NH<sub>4</sub>Cl an ecologically relevant concentration? When does off-target/nonspecific activation of odorant receptors become an issue? Some discussion of this could help readers assess the relevance of the salt concentrations used.

      This is a great question but one that is difficult to reconcile between experimental conditions that often use 2.5M salt as point-source to establish salt gradients versus ecologically relevant concentrations that are very heterogenous in salinity. Efforts to show C. elegans can tolerate similar levels of salinity between 0.20-0.30 M without adverse effects have been recorded previously (Hu et al., Analytica Chimica Acta 2015; Mah et al. Expedition 2017).

      (7) It would be nice for readers to have a short orientation to the ecological relevance of the different salts - e.g. why Pristionchus has a particular taste for ammonium salts.

      Pristionchus species are entomophilic and most frequently found to be associated with beetles in a necromenic manner. Insect cadavers could thus represent sources of ammonium in the soil. Additionally, ammonium salts could represent a biological signature of other nematodes that the predatory morphs of P. pacificus could interpret as prey. We have added the possible ecological relevance of ammonium salts into the Discussion.

      (8) Page 11: 'multiple P. pacificus che-1p::GCaMP strains did not exhibit sufficient basal fluorescence to allow for image tracking and direct comparison'. 500ms exposure to get enough signal from RCaMP is slow, but based on the figures it still seems enough to capture things. If image tracking was the issue, then using GCaMP6s with SL2-RFP or similar in conjunction with a beam splitter enables tracking when the GCaMP signal is low. Might be an option for the future.

      These are very helpful suggestions and we hope to eventually develop an improved che1p::GCaMP strain for future studies.

      (9) Sometimes C. elegans genes are referred to as 'C. elegans [gene name]' and sometimes 'Cel [gene name]'. Should be consistent. Same with Pristionchus.

      We have now combed through and corrected the inconsistencies in nomenclature.

      (10) Pg 12 - '...supports the likelihood that AFD receives inputs, possibly neuropeptidergic, from other amphid neurons' - the neuropeptidergic part could do with some justification.

      Because the AFD neurons are not exposed directly to the environment through the amphid channel like the ASE and other amphid neurons, the calcium responses to salts detected in the AFD likely originate from sensory neurons connected to the AFD. However, because there is no synaptic connection from other amphid neurons to the AFD neurons in P. pacificus (unlike in C. elegans; Hong et al, eLife, 2019), it is likely that neuropeptides connect other sensory neurons to the AFDs. To avoid unnecessary confusion, we have removed “possibly neuropeptidergic.”

      (11) Pg16: the link to the Hallam lab codon adaptor has a space in the middle. Also, the paper should be cited along with the web address (Bryant and Hallam, 2021).

      We have now added the proper link, plus in-text citation. https://hallemlab.shinyapps.io/Wild_Worm_Codon_Adapter/ (Bryant and Hallem, 2021)

      Full citation:

      Astra S Bryant, Elissa A Hallem, The Wild Worm Codon Adapter: a web tool for automated codon adaptation of transgenes for expression in non-Caenorhabditis nematodes, G3 Genes|Genomes|Genetics, Volume 11, Issue 7, July 2021, jkab146, https://doi.org/10.1093/g3journal/jkab146

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) In Figure 1, the legend states that the population tested was "J4/L4 larvae and young adult hermaphrodites," whereas in the main text, the population was described as "adult hermaphrodites." Please clarify which ages were tested.

      We have tested J4-Adult stage hermaphrodites and have made the appropriate corrections in the text.

      (2) The authors state that "in contrast to C. elegans, we find that P. pacificus is only moderately and weakly attracted to NaCl and LiCl, respectively." However, this statement does not reflect the data shown in Figure 1, where there is no significant difference between C. elegans and P. pacificus - both species show at most weak attraction to NaCl.

      Although there is no statistically significant difference in NaCl attraction between P. pacificus and C. elegans, NaCl attraction in P. pacificus is significantly lower than its attraction to all 3 ammonium salts when compared to C. elegans. We have rephrased this statement as relative differences in the Results and updated the Figure legend.

      (3) In Figure 1, the comparisons between C. elegans and P. pacificus should be made using a two-way ANOVA rather than multiple t-tests. Also, the sample sizes should be stated (so the reader does not need to count the circles) and the error bars should be defined.

      We performed the 2-way ANOVA to detect differences between C. elegans and P. pacificus for the same salt and between salts within each species. We also indicated the sample size on the figure and defined the error bars.

      Significance:

      For comparisons of different salt responses within the same species:

      - For C. elegans, NH<sub>4</sub>Br vs NH<sub>4</sub>Cl (**p<0.01), NH<sub>4</sub>Cl vs NH<sub>4</sub>I (* p<0.05), and NH<sub>4</sub>Cl vs NaCl (* p<0.05). All other comparisons are not significant.

      - For P. pacificus, all salts showed (****p<0.0001) when compared to NaAc and to NH<sub>4</sub>Ac, except for NH<sub>4</sub>Ac and NaAc compared to each other (ns). Also, NH<sub>4</sub>Cl showed (*p<0.05) and NH<sub>4</sub>I showed (***p<0.001) when compared with LiCl and NaCl. All other comparisons are not significant.

      For comparisons of salt responses between different species (N2 vs PS312):

      - NH<sub>4</sub>I and LiCl (*p<0.05); NaAc and NH<sub>4</sub>Ac (****p<0.0001)

      (4) It might be worth doing a power analysis on the data in Figure 3B. If the data are underpowered, this might explain why there is a difference in NH<sub>4</sub>Br response with one of the null mutants but not the other.

      For responses to NH<sub>4</sub>Cl, since both che-1 mutants (rather than just one) showed significant difference compared to wildtype, we conducted a power analysis based on the effect size of that difference (~1.2; large). Given this effect size, the sample size for future experiments should be 12 (ANOVA).

      For responses to NH<sub>4</sub>Br and given the effect size of the difference seen between wildtype (PS312) and ot5012 (~0.8; large), the sample size for future experiments should be 18 (ANOVA) for a power value of 0.8. Therefore, it is possible that the sample size of 12 for the current experiment was too small to detect a possible difference between the ot5013 alleles and wildtype.

      (5) It would be helpful to discuss why silencing Ppa-ASE might result in a switch from attractive to repulsive responses to some of the tested gustatory cues.

      For similar assays using Ppa-odr-3p::HisCl1, increasing histamine concentration led to decreasing C.I. for a given odorant (myristate, a P. pacificus-specific attractant). It is likely that the amount of histamine treatment for knockdown to zero (i.e. without a valence change) will differ depending on the attractant.

      (6) The statistical tests used in Figure 3 are not stated.

      Figure 3 used Two-way ANOVA with Dunnett’s post hoc test. We have now added the test in the figure legend.

      (7) It would be helpful to examine the responses of ASER to the full salt panel in the Ppa-gcy-22.3 vs. wild-type backgrounds.

      We understand that future experiments examining neuron responses to the full salt panel for wildtype and gcy-22.3 mutants would provide further information about the salts and specific ions associated with the GCY-22.3 receptor. However, we have tested a broader range of salts (although not yet the full panel) for behavioral assays in wildtype vs gcy-22.3 mutants, which we have included as part of an added Figure 8.

      (8) The controls shown in Figure S1 may not be adequate. Ideally, the same sample size would be used for the control, allowing differences between control worms and experimental worms to be quantified.

      Although we had not conducted an equal number of negative controls using green light without salt stimuli due to resource constraints (6 control vs ~10-19 test), we provided individual recordings with stimuli to show that conditions we interpreted as having responses rarely showed responses resembling the negative controls. Similarly, those we interpreted as having no responses to stimuli mostly resembled the no-stimuli controls (e.g. WT to 25 mM NH<sub>4</sub>Cl, gcy22.3 mutant to 250 mM NH<sub>4</sub>Cl).

      (9) An osmolarity control would be helpful for the calcium imaging experiments.

      We acknowledge that future calcium imaging experiments featuring different salt concentrations could benefit from osmolarity controls.

      (10) In Figure S7, more information about the microfluidic chip design is needed.

      The chip design features a U-shaped worm trap to facilitate loading the worm head-first, with a tapered opening to ensure the worm fits snugly and will not slide too far forward during recording. The outer two chip channels hold buffer solution and can be switched open (ON) or closed (OFF) by the Valvebank. The inner two chip channels hold experimental solutions. The inner channel closer to the worm trap holds the control solution, and the inner channel farther from the worm trap holds the stimulant solution.

      We have added an image of the chip in Figure S7 and further description in the legend.

      (11) Throughout the manuscript, the discussion of the salt stimuli focuses on the salts more than the ions. More discussion of which ions are eliciting responses (both behavioral and neuronal responses) would be helpful.

      In Figure 7, the gcy-22.3 defect resulted in a statistically significant reduction in response only towards NH<sub>4</sub>Cl but not towards NaCl, which suggests ASER is the primary neuron detecting NH<sub>4</sub><sup>+</sup> ions. To extend the description of the gcy-22.3 mutant defects to other ions, we have added a Figure 8: chemotaxis on various salt backgrounds. We found only a mild increase in attraction towards NH<sub>4</sub><sup>+</sup> by both gcy-22.3 mutant alleles, but wild-type in their responses toward Cl<sup>-</sup>, Na<sup>+</sup>, or I<sup>-</sup>. The switch in the direction of change between the behavioral (enhanced) and calcium imaging result (reduced) suggests the behavioral response to ammonium ions likely involves additional receptors and neurons.

      Minor comments:

      (1) The full species name of "C. elegans" should be written out upon first use.

      We have added ‘Caenorhabditis elegans’ to its first mention.

      (2) In the legend of Figure 1, "N2" should not be in italics.

      We have made the correction.

      (3) The "che-1" gene should be in lowercase, even when it is at the start of the sentence.

      We have made the correction.

      (4) Throughout the manuscript, "HisCl" should be "HisCl1."

      We have made these corrections to ‘HisCl1’.

      (5) Figure 3A would benefit from more context, such as the format seen in Figure 7A. It would also help to have more information in the legend (e.g., blue boxes are exons, etc.).

      (6) "Since NH<sub>4</sub>I sensation is affected by silencing of che-1(+) neurons but is unaffected in che-1 mutants, ASE differentiation may be more greatly impacted by the silencing of ASE than by the loss of che-1": I don't think this is exactly what the authors mean. I would say, "ASE function may be more greatly impacted...".

      We have changed ‘differentiation’ to ‘function’ in this passage.

      (7) In Figure 7F-G, the AFD neurons are referred to as AFD in the figure title but AM12 in the graph. This is confusing.

      Thank you for noticing this oversight. We have corrected “AM12” to “AFD”.

      (8) In Figure 7, the legend suggests that comparisons within the same genotype were analyzed. I do not see these comparisons in the figure. In which cases were comparisons within the same genotype made?

      Correct, we performed additional tests between ON and OFF states within the same genotypes (WT and mutant) but did not find significant differences. To avoid unnecessary confusion, we have removed this sentence.

      (9) The nomenclature used for the transgenic animals is unconventional. For example, normally the calcium imaging line would be listed as csuEx93[Ppa-che-1p::optRCaMP] instead of Ppache-1p::optRCaMP(csuEx93).

      We have made these corrections to the nomenclature.

      (10) Figure S6 appears to come out of order. Also, it would be nice to have more of a legend for this figure. The format of the figure could also be improved for clarity.

      We have corrected Figure S6 (now S8) and added more information to the legend.

      (11) Methods section, Chemotaxis assays: "Most assays lasted ~3.5 hours at room temperature in line with the speed of P. pacificus without food..." It's not clear what this means. Does it take the worms 3.5 hours to crawl across the surface of the plate?

      Correct, P. pacificus requires 3-4 hours to crawl across the surface of the plate, which is the standard time for chemotaxis assays for some odors and all salts. We have added this clarification to the Methods.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study provides valuable insights into how the brain parses the syntactic structure of a spoken sentence. A unique contribution of the work is to use a large language model to quantify how the mental representation of syntactic structure updates as a sentence unfolds in time. Solid evidence is provided that distributive cortical networks are engaged for incremental parsing of a sentence, although the contribution could be further strengthened if the authors would further highlight the main results and clarify the benefit of using a large language model.

      We thank the editors for the overall positive assessment. We have revised our manuscript to further emphasize our main findings and highlight the advantages of using a large language model (LLM) over traditional behavioural and corpus-based data.

      This study aims to investigate the neural dynamics underlying the incremental construction of structured interpretation during speech comprehension. While syntactic cues play an important role, they alone do not define the essence of this parsing process. Instead, this incremental process is jointly determined by the interplay of syntax, semantics, and non-linguistic world knowledge, evoked by the specific words heard sequentially by listeners. To better capture these multifaceted constraints, we derived structural measures from BERT, which dynamically represent the evolving structured interpretation as a sentence unfolds word-by-word.

      Typically, the syntactic structure of a sentence can be represented by a context-free parse tree, such as a dependency parse tree or a constituency-based parse tree, which abstracts away from specific content, assigning a discrete parse depth to each word regardless of its semantics. However, this context-free parse tree merely represents the result rather than the process of sentence parsing and does not elucidate how a coherent structured interpretation is concurrently determined by multifaceted constraints. In contrast, BERT parse depth, trained to approach the context-free discrete dependency parse depth, is a continuous variable. Crucially, its deviation from the corresponding discrete parse depth indicates the preference for the syntactic structure represented by this context-free parse. As BERT processes a sentence delivered word-by-word, the dynamic change of BERT parse depth reflects the incremental nature of online speech comprehension.

      Our results reveal a behavioural alignment between BERT parse depth and human interpretative preference for the same set of sentences. In other words, BERT parse depth could represent a probabilistic interpretation of a sentence’s structure based on its specific contents, making it possible to quantify the preference for each grammatically correct syntactic structure during incremental speech comprehension. Furthermore, both BERT and human interpretations show correlations with linguistic knowledge, such as verb transitivity, and non-linguistic knowledge, like subject noun thematic role preference. Both types of knowledge are essential for achieving a coherent interpretation, in accordance with the “constraint-based hypothesis” of sentence processing.

      Motivated by the observed behavioural alignment between BERT and human listeners, we further investigated BERT structural measures in source-localized EEG/MEG using representational similarity analyses (RSA). This approach revealed the neural dynamics underlying incremental speech comprehension on millisecond scales. Our main findings include: (1) a shift from bi-hemispheric lateral frontal-temporal regions to left-lateralized regions in representing the current structured interpretation as a sentence unfolds, (2) a pattern of sequential activations in the left lateral temporal regions, updating the structured interpretation as syntactic ambiguity is resolved, and (3) the influence of lexical interpretative coherence activated in the right hemisphere over the resolved sentence structure represented in the left hemisphere.

      From our perspective, the advantages of using a LLM (or deep language model) like BERT are twofold. Conceptually, BERT structural measures offer a deep contextualized structural representation for any given sentence by integrating the multifaceted constraints unique to the specific contents described by the words within that sentence. Modelling this process on a word-by-word basis is challenging to achieve with behavioural or corpus-based metrics. Empirically, as demonstrated in our responses to the reviewers below, BERT measures show better performance compared to behavioural and corpus-based metrics in aligning with listeners’ neural activity. Moreover, when it comes to integrating multiple sources of constraints for achieving a coherent interpretation, BERT measures also show a better fit with the behavioural data of human listeners than corpus-based metrics.

      Taken together, we propose that LLMs, akin to other artificial neural networks (ANNs), can be considered as computational models for formulating and testing specific neuroscientific hypotheses, such as the “constraint-based hypothesis” of sentence processing in this study. However, we by no means overlook the importance of corpus-based and behavioural metrics. These metrics play a crucial role in interpreting and assessing whether and how ANNs stimulate human cognitive processes, a fundamental step in employing ANNs to gain new insights into the neural mechanisms of human cognition.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this study, the authors investigate where and when brain activity is modulated by incoming linguistic cues during sentence comprehension. Sentence stimuli were designed such that incoming words had varying degrees of constraint on the sentence's structural interpretation as participants listened to them unfolding, i.e. due to varying degrees of verb transitivity and the noun's likelihood of assuming a specific thematic role. Word-by-word "online" structural interpretations for each sentence were extracted from a deep neural network model trained to reproduce language statistics. The authors relate the various metrics of word-by-word predicted sentence structure to brain data through a standard RSA approach at three distinct points of time throughout sentence presentation. The data provide convincing evidence that brain activity reflects preceding linguistic constraints as well as integration difficulty immediately after word onset of disambiguating material.

      We thank Reviewer #1 (hereinafter referred to as R1) for their recognition of the objectives of our study and the analytical approaches we have employed in this study.

      The authors confirm that their sentence stimuli vary in degree of constraint on sentence structure through independent behavioral data from a sentence continuation task. They also show a compelling correlation of these behavioral data with the online structure metric extracted from the deep neural network, which seems to pick up on the variation in constraints. In the introduction, the authors argue for the potential benefits of using deep neural networkderived metrics given that it has "historically been challenging to model the dynamic interplay between various types of linguistic and nonlinguistic information". Similarly, they later conclude that "future DLMs (...) may provide new insights into the neural implementation of the various incremental processing operations(...)".

      We appreciate R1’s positive comments on the design, quantitative modelling and behavioural validation of the sentence stimuli used in this experiment.

      By incorporating structural probing of a deep neural network, a technique developed in the field of natural language processing, into the analysis pipeline for investigating brain data, the authors indeed take an important step towards establishing advanced machine learning techniques for researching the neurobiology of language. However, given the popularity of deep neural networks, an argument for their utility should be carefully evidenced.

      We fully concur with R1 regarding the need for cautious evaluation and interpretation of deep neural networks’ utility. In fact, this perspective underpinned our decision to conduct extensive correlation analyses using both behavioural and corpus-based metrics to make sense of BERT metrics. These analyses were essential to interpret and validate BERT metrics before employing them to investigate listeners’ neural activity during speech comprehension. We do not in any way undermine the importance of behavioural or corpus-based data in studying language processing in the brain. On the contrary, as evidenced by our findings, these traditional metrics are instrumental in interpreting and guiding the use of metrics derived from LLMs.

      However, the data presented here don't directly test how large the benefit provided by this tool really is. In fact, the authors show compelling correlations of the neural network-derived metrics with both the behavioral cloze-test data as well as several (corpus-)derived metrics. While this is a convincing illustration of how deep language models can be made more interpretable, it is in itself not novel. The correlation with behavioral data and corpus statistics also raises the question of what is the additional benefit of the computational model? Is it simply saving us the step of not having to collect the behavioral data, not having to compute the corpus statistics or does the model potentially uncover a more nuanced representation of the online comprehension process? This remains unclear because we are lacking a direct comparison of how much variance in the neural data is explained by the neural network-derived metrics beyond those other metrics (for example the main verb probability or the corpusderived "active index" following the prepositional phrase).

      From our perspective, a primary advantage of using the neural network-derived metrics (or LLMs as computational models of language processing), compared to traditional behavioural and corpus-based metrics, lies in their ability to offer more nuanced, contextualized representations of natural language inputs. There seems no effective way of computationally capturing the distributed and multifaceted constraints within specific contexts until the current generation of LLMs came along. While it is feasible to quantify lexical properties or contextual effects based on the usage of specific words via corpora or behavioural tests, this method appears less effective in modelling the composition of meanings across more words on the sentence level. More critically, it struggles with capturing how various lexical constraints collectively yield a coherent structured interpretation.

      Accumulating evidence suggests that models designed for context prediction or next-word prediction, such as word2vec and LLMs, outperform classic count-based distributional semantic models (Baroni et al. 2014) in aligning with neural activity during language comprehension (Schrimpf et al. 2021; Caucheteux and King 2022). Relevant to this, we have conducted additional analyses to directly assess the additional variance of neural data explained by BERT metrics, over and above what traditional metrics account for. Specifically, using RSA, we re-tested model RDMs based on BERT metrics while controlling for the contribution from traditional metrics (via partial correlation).

      During the first verb (V1) epoch, we tested model RDMs of V1 transitivity based on data from either the behavioural pre-test (i.e., continuations following V1) or massive corpora. Contrasting sharply with the significant model fits observed for BERT V1 parse depth in bilateral frontal and temporal regions, the two metrics of V1 transitivity did not exhibit any significant effects (see Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1

      RSA model fits of BERT structural metrics and behavioural/corpus-based metrics in the V1 epoch. (upper) Model fits of BERT V1 parse depth (relevant to Appendix 1-figure 10A); (middle) Model fits of the V1 transitivity based on the continuation pre-rest conducted at the end of V1 (e.g., completing “The dog found …”); (bottom) Model fits of the V1 transitivity based on the corpus data (as described in Methods). Note that verb transitivity is quantified as the proportion of its transitive uses (i.e., followed by a direct object) relative to its intransitive uses.

      In the PP1 epoch, which was aligned to the onset of the preposition in the prepositional phrase (PP), we tested the probability of a PP continuation following V1 (e.g., the probability of a PP after “The dog found…”). While no significant results were found for PP probability, we have plotted the uncorrected results for PP probability (Author response image 2). These model fits have very limited overlap with those of BERT parse depth vector (up to PP1) in the left inferior frontal gyrus (approximately at 360 ms) and the left temporal regions (around 600 ms). It is noteworthy that the model fits of the BERT parse depth vector (up to PP1) remained largely unchanged even when PP probability was controlled for, indicating that the variance explained by BERT metrics cannot be effectively accounted for by the PP probability obtained from the human continuation pre-test.

      Author response image 2

      Comparison between the RSA model fits of BERT structural metrics and behavioural / corpusbased metrics in the PP1 epoch. (upper) Model fits of BERT parse depth vector up to PP1 (relevant to Figure 6B in the main text); (middle) Model fits of the probability of a PP continuation in the prerest conducted at the end of the first verb; (bottom) Model fits of BERT parse depth vector up to PP1 after partialling out the variance explained by PP probability.

      Finally, in the main verb (MV) epoch, we tested the model RDM based on the probability of a MV continuation following the PP (e.g., the probability after “The dog found in the park…”). When compared with the BERT parse depth vector (up to MV), we observed a similar effect in the left dorsal frontal regions (see Author response image 3). However, this effect did not survive after the whole-brain multiple comparison correction. Subsequent partial correlation analyses revealed that the MV probability accounted for only a small portion of the variance in neural data explained by the BERT metric, primarily the effect observed in the left dorsal frontal regions around 380 ms post MV onset. Meanwhile, the majority of the model fits of the BERT parse depth vector remained largely unchanged after controlling for the MV probability.

      Note that the probability of a PP/MV continuation reflect participants’ predictions based on speech input preceding the preposition (e.g., “The dog found…”) or the main verb (e.g., “The dog found in the park…”), respectively. In contrast, BERT parse depth vector is designed to represent the structure of the (partial) sentence in the speech already delivered to listeners, rather than to predict a continuation after it. Therefore, in the PP1 and MV epochs, we separately tested BERT parse depth vectors that included the preposition (e.g., “The dog found in…”) and the main verb (e.g., “The dog found in the park was…”) to accurately capture the sentence structure at these specific points in a sentence. Despite the differences in the nature of information captured by these two types of metrics, the behavioural metrics themselves did not exhibit significant model fits when tested against listeners’ neural activity.

      Author response image 3

      Comparison between the RSA model fits of BERT structural metrics and behavioural / corpusbased metrics in the MV epoch. (upper) Model fits of BERT parse depth vector up to MV (relevant to Figure 6C in the main text); (middle) Model fits of the probability of a MV continuation in the pre-rest conducted at the end of the prepositional phrase (e.g., “The dog found in the park …”); (bottom) Model fits of BERT parse depth vector up to MV after partialling out the variance explained by MV probability.

      Regarding the corpus-derived interpretative preference, we observed that neither the Active index nor the Passive index showed significant effects in the PP1 epoch. In the MV epoch, while significant model fits of the passive index were observed, which temporally overlapped with the BERT parse depth vector (up to MV) after the recognition point of the MV, the effects of these two model RDMs emerged in different hemispheres, as illustrated in Figures 6C and 8D in the main text. Consequently, we opted not to pursue further partial correlation analysis with the corpus-derived interpretative preference. Besides, as shown in Figure 8A, 8B and 8C, subject noun thematic role preference and non-directional index exhibit significant model fits in the PP1 or the MV epoch. Interesting, these effects lead corresponding effects of BERT metrics in the same epoch (see Figure 6B and 6C), suggesting that the overall structured interpretation emerges after the evaluation and integration of multifaceted lexical constraints.

      In summary, our findings indicate that, in comparison to corpus-derived or behavioural metrics, BERT structural metrics are more effective in explaining neural data, in terms of modelling both the unfolding sentence input (i.e., incremental BERT parse vector) and individual words (i.e., V1) within specific sentential contexts. This advantage of BERT metrics might be due to the hypothesized capacity of LLMs to capture more contextually rich representations. Such representations effectively integrate the diverse constraints present in a given sentence, thereby outperforming corpus-based metrics or behavioural metrics in this respect. Concurrently, it is important to recognize the significant role of corpus-based / behavioral metrics as explanatory variables. They are instrumental not only in interpreting BERT metrics but also in understanding their fit to listeners’ neural activity (by examining the temporal sequence and spatial distribution of model fits of these two types of metrics). Such an integrative approach allows for a more comprehensive understanding of the complex neural processes underpinning speech comprehension.

      With regards to the neural data, the authors show convincing evidence for early modulations of brain activity by linguistic constraints on sentence structure and importantly early modulation by the coherence between multiple constraints to be integrated. Those modulations can be observed across bilateral frontal and temporal areas as well as parts of the default mode network. The methods used are clear and rigorous and allow for a detailed exploration of how multiple linguistic cues are neurally encoded and dynamically shape the final representation of a sentence in the brain. However, at times the consequences of the RSA results remain somewhat vague with regard to the motivation behind different metrics and how they differ from each other. Therefore, some results seem surprising and warrant further discussion, for example: Why does the neural network-derived parse depth metric fit neural data before the V1 uniqueness point if the sentence pairs begin with the same noun phrase? This suggests that the lexical information preceding V1, is driving the results. However, given the additional results, we can already exclude an influence of subject likelihood for a specific thematic role as this did not model the neural data in the V1 epoch to a significant degree.

      As pointed out by R1, model fits of BERT parse depth vector (up to V1) and its mismatch for the active interpretation were observed before the V1 uniqueness point (Figures 6A and 6D). These early effects could be attributed to the inclusion of different subject nouns in the BERT parse depth vectors. In our MEG data analyses, RSA was performed using all LoTrans and HiTrans sentences. Each of the 60 sentence sets contained one LoTrans sentence and one HiTrans sentence, which resulted in a 120 x 120 neural data RDM for each searchlight ROI across the brain within each sliding time window. Although LoTrans and HiTrans sentences within the same sentence set shared the same subject noun, subject nouns varied across sentence sets. This variation was expected to be reflected in both the model RDM of BERT metrics and the data RDM, a point further clarified in the revised manuscript.

      In contrast, when employing a model RDM constructed solely from the BERT V1 parse depth, we observed model fits peaking precisely at the uniqueness point of V1 (see Appendix 1figure 10). It is important to note that BERT V1 parse depth is a contextualized metric influenced by the preceding subject noun, which could account for the effects of BERT V1 parse depth observed before the uniqueness point of V1.

      Relatedly, In Fig 2C it seems there are systematic differences between HiTrans and LoTrans sentences regarding the parse depth of determiner and subject noun according to the neural network model, while this is not expected according to the context-free parse.

      We thank R1 for pointing out this issue. Relevant to Figure 3D (Figure 2C in the original manuscript), we presented the distributions of BERT parse depth for individual words as the sentence unfolds in Appendix 1-figure 2. Our analysis revealed that the parse depth of the subject noun in high transitivity (HiTrans) and low transitivity (LoTrans) sentences did not significantly differ, except for the point at which the sentence reached V1 (two-tailed twosample t-test, P = 0.05).

      However, we observed a significant difference in the parse depth of the determiner between HiTrans and LoTrans sentences (two-tailed two-sample t-test, P < 0.05 for all results in Appendix 1-figure 2). Additionally, the parse depth of the determiner was found to covary with that of V1 as the input unfolded to different sentence positions (Pearson correlation, P < 0.05 for all plots in Appendix 1-figure 2). This difference, unexpected in terms of the contextfree (dependency) parse used for training the BERT structural probing model, might be indicative of a “leakage” of contextual information during the training of the structural probing model, given the co-variation between the determiner and V1 which was designed to be different in their transitivity in the two types of sentences.

      Despite such unexpected differences observed in the BERT parse depths of the determiner, we considered the two sentence types as one group with distributed features (e.g., V1 transitivity) in the RSA, and used the BERT parse depth vector including all words in the sentence input to construct the model RDMs. Moreover, as indicated in Appendix 1-figure 3, compared to the content words, the determiner contributed minimally to the incremental BERT parse depth vector. Consequently, the noted discrepancies in BERT parse depth of the determiner between HiTrans and LoTrans sentences are unlikely to significantly bias our RSA results.

      "The degree of this mismatch is proportional to the evidence for or against the two interpretations (...). Besides these two measures based on the entire incremental input, we also focused on Verb1 since the potential structural ambiguity lies in whether Verb1 is interpreted as a passive verb or the main verb." The neural data fits in V1 epoch differ in their temporal profile for the mismatch metrics and the Verb 1 depth respectively. I understand the "degree of mismatch" to be a measure of how strongly the neural network's hidden representations align with the parse depth of an active or passive sentence structure. If this is correct, then it is not clear from the text how far this measure differs from the Verb 1 depth alone, which is also indicating either an active or passive structure.

      Within the V1 epoch, we tested three distinct types of model RDMs based on BERT metrics: (1) The BERT parse depth vector, representing the neural network’s hidden representation of the incremental sentence structure including all words up to V1. (2) The mismatch metric for either the Active or Passive interpretation, calculated as the distance between the BERT parse depth vector and the context-free parse depth vector for each interpretation. (3) The BERT parse depth of V1, crucial in representing the preferred structural interpretation of the unfolding sentence given its syntactic role as either a passive verb or the main verb.

      While the BERT parse depth vector per se does not directly indicate a preferred interpretation, its mismatch with the context-free parse depth vectors of the two possible interpretations reveals the favoured interpretation, as significant neural fit is only anticipated for the mismatch with the interpretation being considered. The contextualized BERT depth of V1 is also indicative of the preferred structure given the context-free V1 parse depth corresponding to different syntactic roles, however, compared to the interpretative mismatch, it does not fully capture contributions from other words in the input. Consequently, we expected the interpretative mismatch and the BERT V1 depth to yield different results. Indeed, our analysis revealed that, although both metrics extracted from the same BERT layer (i.e., layer 13) demonstrated early RSA fits in the left fronto-temporal regions, the V1 depth showed relatively more prolonged effects with a notable peak occurring precisely at the uniqueness point of V1 (compare Figure 6C and Appendix 1-figure 10). These complementary results underscore the capability of BERT metrics to align with neural responses, in terms of both an incrementally unfolding sentence and a specific word within it.

      In previous studies, differences in neural activity related to distinct amounts of open nodes in the parse tree have been interpreted in terms of distinct working memory demands (Nelson et al. pnas 2017, Udden et al tics 2020). It seems that some of the metrics, for example the neural network-derived parse depth or the V1 depth may be similarly interpreted in the light of working memory demands. After all, during V1 epoch, the sentences do not only differ with respect to predicted sentence structure, but also in the amount of open nodes that need to be maintained. In the discussion, however, the authors interpret these results as "neural representations of an unfolding sentence's structure".

      We agree with the reviewer that the Active and Passive interpretations differ in terms of the number of open nodes before the actual main verb is heard. Given the syntactic ambiguity in our sentence stimuli (i.e., LoTrans and Hi Trans sentences), it is infeasible to determine the exact number of open nodes in each sentence as it unfolds. Nevertheless, the RSA fits observed in the dorsal lateral frontal regions could be indicative of the varying working memory demands involved in building the structured interpretations across sentences. We have added this perspective in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This article is focused on investigating incremental speech processing, as it pertains to building higher-order syntactic structure. This is an important question because speech processing in general is lesser studied as compared to reading, and syntactic processes are lesser studied than lower-level sensory processes. The authors claim to shed light on the neural processes that build structured linguistic interpretations. The authors apply modern analysis techniques, and use state-of-the-art large language models in order to facilitate this investigation. They apply this to a cleverly designed experimental paradigm of EMEG data, and compare neural responses of human participants to the activation profiles in different layers of the BERT language model.

      We thank Reviewer #2 (hereinafter referred to as R2) for the overall positive remarks on our study.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study aims to investigate an under-explored aspect of language processing, namely syntactic operations during speech processing

      (2) The study is taking advantage of technological advancements in large language models, while also taking linguistic theory into account in building the hypothesis space

      (3) The data combine EEG and MEG, which provides a valuable spatio-temporally resolved dataset

      (4) The use of behavioural validation of high/low transitive was an elegant demonstration of the validity of their stimuli

      We thank R2 for recognizing and appreciating the motivation and the methodology employed in this study.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The manuscript is quite hard to understand, even for someone well-versed in both linguistic theory and LLMs. The questions, design, analysis approach, and conclusions are all quite dense and not easy to follow.

      To address this issue, we have made dedicated efforts to clarify the key points in our study. We also added figures to visualize our experimental design and methods (see Figure 1, Figure 3C and Figure 5 in the revised main text). We hope that these revisions have made the manuscript more comprehensible and straightforward for the readers.

      (2) The analyses end up seeming overly complicated when the underlying difference between sentence types is a simple categorical distinction between high and low transitivity. I am not sure why tree depth and BERT are being used to evaluate the degree to which a sentence is being processed as active or passive. If this is necessary, it would be helpful for the authors to motivate this more clearly.

      Indeed, as pointed by R2, the only difference between LoTrans and HiTrans sentences is the first verb (V1), whose transitivity is crucial for establishing an initial preference for either an Active or a Passive interpretation as the sentence unfolds. Nonetheless, in line with the constraint-based approach to sentence processing and supported by previous research findings, a coherent structured interpretation of a sentence is determined by the combined constraints imposed by all words within that sentence. In our study, the transitivity of V1 alone is insufficient to fully explain the interpretative preference for the sentence structure. The overall sentence-level interpretation also depends on the thematic role preference of the subject noun – its likelihood of being an agent performing an action or a patient receiving the action.

      This was evident in our findings, as shown in Author response image 1 above, where the V1 transitivity based on corpus or behavioural data did not fit to the neural data during the V1 epoch. In contrast, BERT structural measures [e.g., BERT parse depth vector (up to V1) and BERT V1 parse depth] offered contextualized representations that are presumed to integrate various lexical constraints present in each sentence. These BERT metrics exhibited significant model fits for the same neural data in the V1 epoch. Besides, a notable feature of BERT is its bi-directional attention mechanism, which allows for the dynamic updating of an earlier word’s representation as more of the sentence is heard, which is also changeling to achieve with corpus or behavioural metrics. For instance, the parse depth of the word “found” in the BERT parse depth vector for “The dog found…” differs from its parse depth in the vector for “The dog found in…”. This feature of BERT is particularly advantageous for investigating the dynamic nature of structured interpretation during speech comprehension, as it stimulates the continual updating of interpretation that occurs as a sentence unfolds (as shown by Figure 7 in the main text). We have elaborated on the rationale for employing BERT parse depth in this regard in the revised manuscript.

      (3) The main data result figures comparing BERT and the EMEG brain data are hard to evaluate because only t-values are provided, and those, only for significant clusters. It would be helpful to see the full 600 ms time course of rho values, with error bars across subjects, to really be able to evaluate it visually. This is a summary statistic that is very far away from the input data

      We appreciate this suggestion from R2. In the Appendix 1 of the revised manuscript, we have provided individual participants’ Spearman’s rho time courses for every model RDM tested in all the three epochs (see Appendix 1-figures 8-10 & 14-15). Note that RSA was conducted in the source-localized E/MEG, it is infeasible to plot the rho time course for each searchlight at one of the 8196 vertices on the cortical surface mesh. Instead, we plotted the rho time course of each ROI reported in the original manuscript. These plots complement the time-resolved heatmap of peak t-value in Figures 6-8 in the main text.

      (4) Some details are omitted or not explained clearly. For example, how was BERT masked to give word-by-word predictions? In its default form, I believe that BERT takes in a set of words before and after the keyword that it is predicting. But I assume that here the model is not allowed to see linguistic information in the future.

      In our analyses, we utilized the pre-trained version of BERT (Devlin et al. 2019) as released by Hugging Face (https://github.com/huggingface). It is noteworthy that BERT, as described in the original paper, was initially trained using the Cloze task, involving the prediction of masked words within an input. In our study, however, we neither retrained nor fine-tuned the pre-trained BERT model, nor did we employ it for word-by-word prediction tasks. We used BERT to derive the incremental representation of a sentence’s structure as it unfolded word-by-word.

      Specifically, we sequentially input the text of each sentence into the BERT, akin to how a listener would receive the spoken words in a sentence (see Figure 3C in the main text). For each incremental input (such as “The dog found”), we extracted the hidden representations of each word from BERT. These representations were then transformed into their respective BERT parse depths using a structural probing model (which was trained using sentences with annotated dependency parse tress from the Penn Treebank Dataset). The resulting BERT parse depths were subsequently used to create model RDMs, which were then tested against neural data via RSA.

      Crucially, in our approach, BERT was not exposed to any future linguistic information in the sentence. We never tested BERT parse depth of a word in an epoch where this word had not been heard by the listener. For example, the three-dimensional BERT parse depth vector for “The dog found” was tested in the V1 epoch corresponding to “found”, while the fourdimensional BERT parse depth vector for “The dog found in” was tested in the PP1 epoch of “in”.

      How were the auditory stimuli recorded? Was it continuous speech or silences between each word? How was prosody controlled? Was it a natural speaker or a speech synthesiser?

      Consistent with our previous studies (Kocagoncu et al. 2017; Klimovich-Gray et al. 2019; Lyu et al. 2019; Choi et al. 2021), all auditory stimuli in this study were recorded by a female native British English speaker, ensuring a neutral intonation throughout. We have incorporated this detail into the revised version of our manuscript for clarity.

      It is difficult for me to fully assess the extent to which the authors achieved their aims, because I am missing important information about the setup of the experiment and the distribution of test statistics across subjects.

      We are sorry for the previously omitted details regarding the experimental setup and the results of individual participants. As detailed in our responses above, we have now included the necessary information in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Syntactic parsing is a highly dynamic process: When an incoming word is inconsistent with the presumed syntactic structure, the brain has to reanalyze the sentence and construct an alternative syntactic structure. Since syntactic parsing is a hidden process, it is challenging to describe the syntactic structure a listener internally constructs at each time moment. Here, the authors overcome this problem by (1) asking listeners to complete a sentence at some break point to probe the syntactic structure mentally constructed at the break point, and (2) using a DNN model to extract the most likely structure a listener may extract at a time moment. After obtaining incremental syntactic features using the DNN model, the authors analyze how these syntactic features are represented in the brain using MEG.

      We extend our thanks to Reviewer #3 (referred to as R3 below) for recognizing the methods we used in this study.

      Although the analyses are detailed, the current conclusion needs to be further specified. For example, in the abstract, it is concluded that "Our results reveal a detailed picture of the neurobiological processes involved in building structured interpretations through the integration across multifaceted constraints". The readers may remain puzzled after reading this conclusion.

      Following R3’s suggestion, we have revised the abstract and refined our conclusions in the main text to explicitly highlight our principal findings. These include: (1) a shift from bihemispheric lateral frontal-temporal regions to left-lateralized regions in representing the current structured interpretation as a sentence unfolds, (2) a pattern of sequential activations in the left lateral temporal regions, updating the structured interpretation as syntactic ambiguity is resolved, and (3) the influence of lexical interpretative coherence activated in the right hemisphere over the resolved sentence structure represented in the left hemisphere.

      Similarly, for the second part of the conclusion, i.e., "including an extensive set of bilateral brain regions beyond the classical fronto-temporal language system, which sheds light on the distributed nature of language processing in the brain." The more extensive cortical activation may be attributed to the spatial resolution of MEG, and it is quite well acknowledged that language processing is quite distributive in the brain.

      We fully agree with R3 on the relatively low spatial resolution of MEG. Our emphasis was on the observed peak activations in specific regions outside the classical brain areas related to language processing, such as the precuneus in the default mode network, which are unlikely to be artifacts due to the spatial resolution of MEG. We have revised the relevant contents in the Abstract.

      The authors should also discuss:

      (1) individual differences (whether the BERT representation is a good enough approximation of the mental representation of individual listeners).

      To address the issue of individual differences which was also suggested by R2, we added individual participants’ model fits in ROIs with significant effects of BERT representations in Appendix 1 of the revised manuscript (see Appendix 1-figures 8-10 & 14-15).

      (2) parallel parsing (I think the framework here should allow the brain to maintain parallel representations of different syntactic structures but the analysis does not consider parallel representations).

      In the original manuscript, we did not discuss parallel parsing because the methods we used does not support a direct test for this hypothesis. In our analyses, we assessed the preference for one of two plausible syntactic structures (i.e., Active and Passive interpretations) based on the BERT parse vector of an incremental sentence input. This assessment was accomplished by calculating the mismatch between the BERT parse depth vector and the context-free dependency parse depth vector representing each of the two structures. However, we only observed one preferred interpretation in each epoch (see Figures 6D-6F) and did not find evidence supporting the maintenance of parallel representations of different syntactic structures in the brain. Nevertheless, in the revised manuscript, we have mentioned this possibility, which could be properly explored in future studies.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Consider fitting the behavioral data from the continuation pre-test to the brain data in order to illustrate the claimed advantage of using a computational model beyond more traditional methods.

      Following R1’s suggestion, we conducted additional RSA using more behavioural and corpusbased metrics. We then directly compared the fits of these traditional metrics to brain data with those of BERT metrics in the same epoch to provide empirical evidence for the advantage of using a computational model like BERT to explain listeners’ neural data (see Appendix 1figures 11-13).

      Clarify the use of "neural representations: For a clearer assessment of the results, please discuss your results (especially the fits with BERT parse depth) in terms of the potential effects of distinct sentence structure expectations on working memory demands and make clear where these can be disentangled from neural representations of an unfolding sentence's structure.

      In the revised manuscript, we have noted the working memory demands associated with the online construction of a structured interpretation during incremental speech comprehension. As mentioned in our response to the relevant comment by R1 above, our experimental paradigm is not suitable for quantitatively assessing working memory demands since it is difficult to determine the exact number of open nodes for our stimuli with syntactic ambiguity before the disambiguating point (i.e., the main verb) is reached. Therefore, while we can speculate the potential contribution of varying working memory demands (which might correlate with BERT V1 parse depth) to RSA model fits, we think it is not possible to disentangle their effects from the neural representation of an unfolding sentence’s structure modelled by BERT parse depths in our current study.

      Please add in methods a description of how the uniqueness point was determined.

      In this study, we defined the uniqueness point of a word as the earliest point in time when this word can be fully recognized after removing all of its phonological competitors. To determine the uniqueness point for each word of interest, we first identified the phoneme by which this word can be uniquely recognized according to CELEX (Baayen et al. 1993). Then, we manually labelled the offset of this phoneme in the auditory file of the spoken sentence in which this word occurred. We have added relevant description of how the uniqueness point was determined in the Methods section of the revised manuscript.

      I found the name "interpretative mismatch" very opaque. Maybe instead consider "preference".

      We chose to use the term “interpretative mismatch” rather than “preference” based on the operational definition of this metric, which is the distance between a BERT parse depth vector and one of the two context-free parse depth vectors representing the two possible syntactic structures, so that a smaller distance value (or mismatch) signifies a stronger preference for the corresponding interpretation.

      In the abstract, the authors describe the cognitive process under investigation as one of incremental combination subject to "multi-dimensional probabilistic constraint, including both linguistic and non-linguistic knowledge". The non-linguistic knowledge is later also referred to as "broad world knowledge". These terms lack specificity and across studies have been operationalized in distinct ways. In the current study, this "world knowledge" is operationalized as the likelihood of a subject noun being an agent or patient and the probability for a verb to be transitive, so here a more specific term may have been the "knowledge about statistical regularities in language".

      In this study, we specifically define “non-linguistic world knowledge” as the likelihood of a subject noun assuming the role of an agent or patient, which relates to its thematic role preference. This type of knowledge is primarily non-linguistic in nature, as exemplified by comparing nouns like “king” and “desk”. Although it could be reflected by statistical regularities in language, thematic role preference hinges more on world knowledge, plausibility, or real-world statistics. In contrast, “linguistic knowledge” in our study refers to verb transitivity, which focuses on the grammatically correct usage of a verb and is tied to statistical regularities within language itself. In the revised manuscript, we have provided clearer operational definitions for these two concepts and have ensured consistent usage throughout the text.

      Please spell out what exactly the "constraint-based hypothesis" is (even better, include an explicit description of the alternative hypothesis?).

      The “constraint-based hypothesis”, as summarized in a review (McRae and Matsuki 2013), posits that various sources of information, referred to as “constraints”, are simultaneously considered by listeners during incremental speech comprehension. These constraints encompass syntax, semantics, knowledge of common events, contextual pragmatic biases, and other forms of information gathered from both intra-sentential and extra-sentential context. Notably, there is no delay in the utilization of these multifaceted constraints once they become available, neither is a fixed priority assigned to one type of constraint over another. Instead, a diverse set of constraints is immediately brought into play for comprehension as soon as they become available as the relevant spoken word is recognized.

      An alternative hypothesis, proposed earlier, is the two-stage garden path model (Frazier and Rayner 1982; Frazier 1987). According to this model, there is an initial parsing stage that relies solely on syntax. This is followed by a second stage where all available information, including semantics and other knowledge, is used to assess the plausibility of the results obtained in the first-stage analysis and to conduct re-analysis if necessary (McRae and Matsuki 2013). In the Introduction of our revised manuscript, we have elaborated on the “constraint-based hypothesis” and mentioned this two-stage garden path model as its alternative.

      Fig1 B&C: In order to make the data more interpretable, could you estimate how many possible grammatical structural configurations there are / how many different grammatical structures were offered in the pretest, and based on this what would be the "chance probability" of choosing a random structure or for example show how many responded with a punctuation vs alternative continuations?

      In our analysis of the behavioural results, we categorized the continuations provided by participants in the pre-test at the offset of Verb1 (e.g., “The dog found/walked …”) into 6 categories, including DO (direct object), INTRANS (intransitive), PP (prepositional phrase), INF (infinitival complement), SC (sentential complement) and OTHER (gerund, phrasal verb, etc.).

      Author response table 1.

      Similarly, we categorized the continuations that followed the offset of the prepositional phrase (e.g., “The dog found/walked in the park …”) into 7 categories, including MV (main verb), END (i.e., full stop), PP (prepositional phrase), INF (infinitival complement), CONJ (conjunction), ADV (adverb) and OTHER (gerund, sentential complement, etc.).

      Author response table 2.

      It is important to note that the results of these two pre-tests, including the types of continuations and their probabilities, exhibited considerable variability between and within each sentence type (see also Figures 2B and 2C).

      Typo: "In addition, we found that BERT structural interpretations were also a correlation with the main verb probability" >> correlated instead of correlation.

      We apologize for this typo. We have conducted a thorough proofreading to identify and correct any other typos present in the revised manuscript.

      "In this regard, DLMs excel in a flexible combination of different types of features embedded in their rich internal representations". What are the "different types", spell out at least some examples for illustration.

      We have rephrased this sentence to give a more detailed description.

      Fig 2 caption: "Same color scheme as in (A)" >> should be 'as in (B)'?, and later A instead of B.

      We are sorry for this typo. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      My biggest recommendation is to make the paper clearer in two ways: (i) writing style, by hand-holding the reader through each section, and the motivation for each step, in both simple and technical language; (ii) schematic visuals, of the experimental design and the analysis. A schematic of the main experimental manipulation would be helpful, rather than just listing two example sentences. It would also be helpful to provide a schematic of the experimental setup and the analysis approach, so that people can refer to a visual aid in addition to the written explanation. For example, it is not immediately clear what is being correlated with what - I needed to go to the methods to understand that you are doing RSA across all of the trials. Make sure that all of the relevant details are explained, and that you motivate each decision.

      We thank R2 for these suggestions. In the revised manuscript, we have enhanced the clarity of the main text by providing a more detailed explanation of the motivation behind each analysis and the interpretation of the corresponding results. Additionally, in response to R2’s recommendation, we have added a few figures, including the illustration of the experimental design (Figure 1) and methods (see Figure 3C and Figure 5).

      Different visualisation of neural results - The main data result figures comparing BERT and the EMEG brain data are hard to evaluate because only t-values are provided, and those, are only for significant clusters. It would be helpful to see the full 600 ms time course of rho values, with error bars across subjects, to really be able to evaluate it visually.

      In the original manuscript, we opted to present t-value time courses for the sake of simplicity in illustrating the fits of the 12 model RDMs tested in 3 epochs. Following R2’s suggestion, we have included the ROI model fit time courses of each model RDM for all individual participants, as well as the mean model fit time course with standard error in Appendix 1figures 8-10 & 14-15.

      How are the authors dealing with prosody differences that disambiguate syntactic structures, that BERT does not have access to?

      All spoken sentence stimuli were recorded by a female native British English speaker, ensuring a neutral intonation throughout. Therefore, prosody is unlikely to vary systematically between different sentence types or be utilized to disambiguate syntactic structures. Sample speech stimuli have been made available in the following repository: https://osf.io/7u8jp/.

      A few writing errors: "was kept updated every time"

      We are sorry for the typos. We have conducted proof-reading carefully to identify and correct typos throughout the revised manuscript.

      Explain why the syntactic trees have "in park the" rather than "in the park"?

      The dependency parse trees (e.g., Figure 3A) were generated according to the conventions of dependency parsing (de Marneffe et al. 2006).

      Why are there mentions of the multiple demand network in the results? I'm not sure where this comes from.

      The mention of the multiple demand network was made due to the significant RSA fits observed in the dorsal lateral prefrontal regions and the superior parietal regions, which are parts of the multiple demand network. This observation was particularly notable for the BERT parse depth vector in the main verb epoch when the potential syntactic ambiguity was being resolved. It is plausible that these effects observed are partly attributed to the varying working memory demands required to maintain the “opening nodes” in the different syntactic structures being considered by listeners at this point in the sentence.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The study first asked human listeners to complete partial sentences, and incremental parsing of the partial sentences can be captured based on the completed sentences. This analysis is helpful and I wonder if the behavioral data here are enough to model the E/MEG responses. For example, if I understood it correctly, the parse depth up to V1 can be extracted based on the completed sentences and used for the E/MEG analysis.

      The behavioural data alone do not suffice to model the E/MEG data. As we elucidated in our responses to R1, we employed three behavioural metrics derived from the continuation pretests. These metrics include the V1 transitivity and the PP probability, given the continuations after V1 (e.g., after “The dog found…”), as well as the MV probability, given the continuations after the prepositional phrase (e.g., after “The dog found in the park…”). These metrics aimed to capture participants’ prediction based on their structured interpretations at various positions in the sentence. However, none of these behavioural metrics yielded significant model fits to the listeners’ neural activity, which sharply contrasts with the substantial model fits of the BERT metrics in the same epochs. Besides, we also tried to model V1 parse depth as a weighted average based on participants’ continuations. As shown in Figure 3A, V1 parse depth is 0 in the active interpretation, 2 in the passive interpretation, while the parse depth of the determiner and the subject noun does not differ. However, this continuation-based V1 parse depth [i.e., 0 × Probability(active interpretation) + 2 × Probability(passive interpretation)] did not show significant model fits.

      Related to this point, I wonder if the incremental parse extracted using BERT is consistent with the human results (i.e., parsing extracted based on the completed sentences) on a sentence-bysentence basis.

      In fact, we did provide evidence showing the alignment between the incremental parse extracted using BERT and the human interpretation for the same partial sentence input (see Figure 4 in the main text and Appendix 1-figures 4-6).

      Furthermore, in Fig 1d, is it possible to calculate how much variance of the 3 probabilities is explained by the 4 factors, e.g., using a linear model? If these factors can already explain most of the variance of human parsing, is it possible to just use these 4 factors to explain neural activity?

      Following R3’s suggestion, we have conducted additional linear modelling analyses to compare the extent to which human behavioural data can be explained by corpus metrics and BERT metrics separately. Specifically, for each of the three probabilities obtained in the pretests (i.e., DO, PP, and MV), we constructed two linear models. One model utilized the four corpus-based metrics as regressors (i.e., SN agenthood, V1 transitivity, Passive index, and Active index), while the other model used BERT metrics as regressors (i.e., BERT parse depth of each word up to V1 from layer 13 for DO/PP probability and BERT parse depth of each word up to the end of PP from layer 14 for MV probability, consistent with the BERT layers reported in Figure 6).

      As shown in the table below, corpus metrics demonstrate a more effective fit than BERT metrics for predicting the DO/PP probability. The likelihood of a DO/PP continuation is chiefly influenced by the lexical syntactic property of V1 (i.e., transitivity), and appears to rely less on contextual factors. Since V1 transitivity is explicitly included as one of the corpus metrics, it is thus expected to align more closely with the DO/PP probability compared to BERT metrics, primarily reflecting transitive versus intransitive verb usage.

      Author response table 3.

      Actually, BERT V1 parse depth was not correlated with V1 transitivity when the sentence only unfolds to V1 (see Appendix 1-figure 6). This lack of correlation may stem from the fact that the BERT probing model was designed to represent the structure of a (partially) unfolded sentence, rather than to generate a continuation or prediction. Moreover, V1 transitivity alone does not conclusively determine the Active or Passive interpretation by the end of V1. For instance, both transitive and intransitive continuations after V1 are compatible with an Active interpretation. Consequently, the initial preference for an Active interpretation (as depicted by the early effects before V1 was recognized in Figure 6D), might be predominantly driven by the animate subject noun (SN) at the beginning of the sentence, a word order cue in languages like English (Mahowald et al. 2023).

      In contrast, when assessing the probability of a MV following the PP (e.g., after “The dog found in the park ...”), BERT metrics significantly outperformed corpus metrics in terms of fitting the MV probability. Although SN thematic role preference and V1 transitivity were designed to be the primary factors constraining the structured interpretation in this experiment, we could only obtain their context-independent estimates from corpora (i.e., considering all contexts). Additionally, despite Active/Passive index (a product of these two factors) are correlated with the MV probability, it may oversimplify the task of capturing the specific context of a given sentence. Furthermore, the PP following V1 is also expected to influence the structured interpretation. For instance, whether “in the park” is a more plausible scenario for people to find a dog or for a dog to find something. Thus, this finding suggests that the corpus-based metrics are not as effective as BERT in representing contextualized structured interpretations (for a longer sentence input), which might require the integration of constraints from every word in the input.

      In summary, corpus-based metrics excel in explaining human language behaviour when it primarily relies on specific lexical properties. However, they significantly lag behind BERT metrics when more complex contextual factors come into play at the same time. Regarding their performance in fitting neural data, among the four corpus-based metrics, we only observed significant model fits for the Passive index in the MV epoch when the intended structure for a Passive interpretation was finally resolved, while the other three metrics did not exhibit significant model fits in any epoch. Note that subject noun thematic role preference did fit neural data in the PP and MV epochs (Figure 8A and 8B). In contrast, the incremental BERT parse depth vector exhibited significant model fits in all three epochs we tested (i.e., V1, PP1, and MV).

      To summarize, I feel that I'm not sure if the structural information BERT extracts reflect the human parsing of the sentences, especially when the known influencing factors are removed.

      Based on the results presented above and, in the manuscript, BERT metrics align closely with human structured interpretations in terms of both behavioural and neural data. Furthermore, they outperform corpus-based metrics when it comes to integrating multiple constraints within the context of a specific sentence as it unfolds.

      Minor issues:

      Six types of sentences were presented. Three types were not analyzed, but the results for the UNA sentences are not reported either.

      In this study, we only analysed two out of the six types of sentences, i.e., HiTrans and LoTrans sentences. The remaining four types of sentences were included to ensure a diverse range of sentence structures and avoid potential adaption the same syntactic structure.

      Fig 1b, If I understood it correctly, each count is a sentence. Providing examples of the sentences may help. Listing the sentences with the corresponding probabilities in the supplementary materials can also help.

      Yes, each count in Figure 2B (Figure 1B in the original manuscript) is a sentence. All sentence stimuli and results of pre-tests are available in the following repository https://osf.io/7u8jp/.

      "trajectories of individual HiTrans and LoTrans sentences are considerably distributed and intertwined (Fig. 2C, upper), suggesting that BERT structural interpretations are sensitive to the idiosyncratic contents in each sentence." It may also mean the trajectories are noisy.

      We agree with R3 that there might be unwanted noise underlying the distributed and intertwined BERT parse depth trajectories of individual sentences. Meanwhile, it is also important to note that the correlation between BERT parse depths and lexical constraints of different words at the same position across sentences is statistically supported.

      References

      Baayen RH, Piepenbrock R, van H R. 1993. The {CELEX} lexical data base on {CD-ROM}. Baroni M, Dinu G, Kruszewski G. 2014. Don't count, predict! A systematic comparison of contextcounting vs. context-predicting semantic vectors. Proceedings of the 52nd Annual Meeting of the Association for Computational Linguistics, Vol 1.238-247.

      Caucheteux C, King JR. 2022. Brains and algorithms partially converge in natural language processing. Communications Biology. 5:134.

      Choi HS, Marslen-Wilson WD, Lyu B, Randall B, Tyler LK. 2021. Decoding the Real-Time Neurobiological Properties of Incremental Semantic Interpretation. Cereb Cortex. 31:233-247.

      de Marneffe M-C, MacCartney B, Manning CD editors. Generating typed dependency parses from phrase structure parses, Proceedings of the 5th International Conference on Language Resources and Evaluation; 2006 May 22-28, 2006; Genoa, Italy:European Language Resources Association. 449-454 p.

      Devlin J, Chang M-W, Lee K, Toutanova K editors. BERT: Pre-training of Deep Bidirectional Transformers for Language Understanding, Proceedings of the 2019 Conference of the North American Chapter of the Association for Computational Linguistics: Human Language Technologies; 2019 June 2-7, 2019; Minneapolis, MN, USA:Association for Computational Linguistics. 4171-4186 p.

      Frazier L. 1987. Syntactic processing: evidence from Dutch. Natural Language & Linguistic Theory. 5:519-559.

      Frazier L, Rayner K. 1982. Making and correcting errors during sentence comprehension: Eye movements in the analysis of structurally ambiguous sentences. Cognitive Psychology. 14:178-210.

      Klimovich-Gray A, Tyler LK, Randall B, Kocagoncu E, Devereux B, Marslen-Wilson WD. 2019. Balancing Prediction and Sensory Input in Speech Comprehension: The Spatiotemporal Dynamics of Word Recognition in Context. Journal of Neuroscience. 39:519-527.

      Kocagoncu E, Clarke A, Devereux BJ, Tyler LK. 2017. Decoding the cortical dynamics of soundmeaning mapping. Journal of Neuroscience. 37:1312-1319.

      Lyu B, Choi HS, Marslen-Wilson WD, Clarke A, Randall B, Tyler LK. 2019. Neural dynamics of semantic composition. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 116:21318-21327.

      Mahowald K, Diachek E, Gibson E, Fedorenko E, Futrell R. 2023. Grammatical cues to subjecthood are redundant in a majority of simple clauses across languages. Cognition. 241:105543.

      McRae K, Matsuki K. 2013. Constraint-based models of sentence processing. Sentence processing. 519:51-77.

      Schrimpf M, Blank IA, Tuckute G, Kauf C, Hosseini EA, Kanwisher N, Tenenbaum JB, Fedorenko E. 2021. The neural architecture of language: Integrative modeling converges on predictive processing. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 118:e2105646118.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      We thank the reviewers for their careful reading of our manuscript and their considered feedback. Please see our detailed response to reviewer comments inset below.

      In addition to requested modifications we have also uploaded the proteomics data from 2 of the experiments contained within the manuscript onto the Immunological Proteome Resource (ImmPRes) website: immpres.co.uk making the data available in an easy-to-use graphical format for interested readers to interrogate and explore. We have added the following text to the data availability section (lines 1085-1091) to indicate this:

      “An easy-to-use graphical interface for examining protein copy number expression from the 24-hour TCR WT and Pim dKO CD4 and CD8 T cell proteomics and IL-2 and IL-15 expanded WT and Pim dKO CD8 T cell proteomics datasets is also available on the Immunological Proteome Resource website: immpres.co.uk (Brenes et al., 2023) under the Cell type(s) selection: “T cell specific” and Dataset selection: “Pim1/2 regulated TCR proteomes” and “Pim1/2 regulated IL2 or IL15 CD8 T cell proteomes”.”

      As well as indicating in figure legends where proteomics datasets are first introduced in Figures 1, 2 and 4 with the text:

      “An interactive version of the proteomics expression data is available for exploration on the Immunological Proteome Resource website: immpres.co.uk

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary and Strengths:

      The study focuses on PIM1 and 2 in CD8 T cell activation and differentiation. These two serine/threonine kinases belong to a large network of Serine/Threonine kinases that acts following engagement of the TCR and of cytokine receptors and phosphorylates proteins that control transcriptional, translational and metabolic programs that result in effector and memory T cell differentiation. The expression of PIM1 and PIM2 is induced by the T-cell receptor and several cytokine receptors. The present study capitalized on high-resolution quantitative analysis of the proteomes and transcriptomes of Pim1/Pim2-deficient CD8 T cells to decipher how the PIM1/2 kinases control TCRdriven activation and IL-2/IL-15-driven proliferation, and differentiation into effector T cells.

      Quantitative mass spectrometry-based proteomics analysis of naïve OT1 CD8 T cell stimulated with their cognate peptide showed that the PIM1 protein was induced within 3 hours of TCR engagement, and its expression was sustained at least up to 24 hours. The kinetics of PIM2 expression was protracted as compared to that of PIM1. Such TCRdependent expression of PIM1/2 correlated with the analysis of both Pim1 and Pim2 mRNA. In contrast, Pim3 mRNA was only expressed at very low levels and the PIM3 protein was not detected by mass spectrometry. Therefore, PIM1 and 2 are the major PIM kinases in recently activated T cells. Pim1/Pim2 double knockout (Pim dKO) mice were generated on a B6 background and found to express a lower number of splenocytes. No difference in TCR/CD28-driven proliferation was observed between WT and Pim dKO T cells over 3 days in culture. Quantitative proteomics of >7000 proteins further revealed no substantial quantitative or qualitative differences in protein content or proteome composition. Therefore, other signaling pathways can compensate for the lack of PIM kinases downstream of TCR activation.

      Considering that PIM1 and PIM2 kinase expression is regulated by IL-2 and IL-15, antigen-primed CD8 T cells were expanded in IL-15 to generate memory phenotype CD8 T cells or expanded in IL-2 to generate effector cytotoxic T lymphocytes (CTL). Analysis of the survival, proliferation, proteome, and transcriptome of Pim dKO CD8 T cells kept for 6 days in IL-15 showed that PIM1 and PIM2 are dispensable to drive the IL-15mediated metabolic or differentiation programs of antigen-primed CD8 T cells. Moreover, Pim1/Pim2-deficiency had no impact on the ability of IL-2 to maintain CD8 T cell viability and proliferation. However, WT CTL downregulated the expression of CD62L whereas the Pim dKO CTL sustained higher CD62L expression. Pim dKO CTL was also smaller and less granular than WT CTL. Comparison of the proteome of day 6 IL-2 cultured WT and Pim dKO CTL showed that the latter expressed lower levels of the glucose transporters, SLC2A1 and SLC2A3, of a number of proteins involved in fatty acid and cholesterol biosynthesis, and CTL effector proteins such as granzymes, perforin, IFNg, and TNFa. Parallel transcriptomics analysis showed that the reduced expression of perforin and some granzymes correlated with a decrease in their mRNA whereas the decreased protein levels of granzymes B and A, and the glucose transporters SLC2A1 and SLC2A3 did not correspond with decreased mRNA expression. Therefore, PIM kinases are likely required for IL-2 to maximally control protein synthesis in CD8 CTL. Along that line, the translational repressor PDCD4 was increased in Pim dKO CTL and pan-PIM kinase inhibitors caused a reduction in protein synthesis rates in IL-2expanded CTL. Finally, the differences between Pim dKO and WT CTL in terms of CD62L expression resulted in Pim dKO CTL but not WT CTL retained the capacity to home to secondary lymphoid organs. In conclusion, this thorough and solid study showed that the PIM1/2 kinases shape the effector CD8 T cell proteomes rather than transcriptomes and are important mediators of IL2-signalling and CD8 T cell trafficking.

      Weaknesses:

      None identified by this reviewer.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Using a suite of techniques (e.g., RNA seq, proteomics, and functional experiments ex vivo) this paper extensively focuses on the role of PIM1/2 kinases during CD8 T-cell activation and cytokine-driven (i.e., IL-2 or IL-15) differentiation. The authors' key finding is that PIM1/2 enhances protein synthesis in response to IL-2 stimulation, but not IL-15, in CD8+ T cells. Loss of PIM1/2 made T cells less 'effector-like', with lower granzyme and cytokine production, and a surface profile that maintained homing towards secondary lymphoid tissue. The cytokines the authors focus on are IL-15 and Il-2, which drive naïve CD8 T cells towards memory or effector states, respectively. Although PIM1/2 are upregulated in response to T-cell activation and cytokine stimulation (e.g., IL-15, and to a greater extent, IL-2), using T cells isolated from a global mouse genetic knockout background of PIM1/2, the authors find that PIM1/2 did not significantly influence T-cell activation, proliferation, or expression of anything in the proteome under anti-

      CD3/CD28 driven activation with/without cytokine (i.e., IL-15) stimulation ex vivo. This is perhaps somewhat surprising given PIM1/2 is upregulated, albeit to a small degree, in response to IL-15, and yet PIM1/2 did not seem to influence CD8+ T cell differentiation towards a memory state. Even more surprising is that IL-15 was previously shown to influence the metabolic programming of intestinal intraepithelial lymphocytes, suggesting cell-type specific effects from PIM kinases. What the authors went on to show, however, is that PIM1/2 KO altered CD8 T cell proteomes in response to IL-2. Using proteomics, they saw increased expression of homing receptors (i.e., L-selectin, CCR7), but reduced expression of metabolism-related proteins (e.g., GLUT1/3 & cholesterol biosynthesis) and effector-function related proteins (e.g., IFNy and granzymes). Rather neatly, by performing both RNA-seq and proteomics on the same IL2 stimulated WT vs. PIM1/2 KO cells, the authors found that changes at the proteome level were not corroborated by differences in RNA uncovering that PIM1/2 predominantly influence protein synthesis/translation. Effectively, PIM1/2 knockout reduced the differentiation of CD8+ T cells towards an effector state. In vivo adoptive transfer experiments showed that PIM1/2KO cells homed better to secondary lymphoid tissue, presumably owing to their heightened L-selectin expression (although this was not directly examined).

      Strengths:

      Overall, I think the paper is scientifically good, and I have no major qualms with the paper. The paper as it stands is solid, and while the experimental aim of this paper was quite specific/niche, it is overall a nice addition to our understanding of how serine/threonine kinases impact T cell state, tissue homing, and functionality. Of note, they hint towards a more general finding that kinases may have distinct behaviour in different T-cell subtypes/states. I particularly liked their use of matched RNA-seq and proteomics to first suggest that PIM1/2 kinases may predominantly influence translation (then going on to verify this via their protein translation experiment - although I must add this was only done using PIM kinase inhibitors, not the PIM1/2KO cells). I also liked that they used small molecule inhibitors to acutely reduce PIM1/2 activity, which corroborated some of their mouse knockout findings - this experiment helps resolve any findings resulting from potential adaptation issues from the PIM1/2 global knockout in mice but also gives it a more translational link given the potential use of PIM kinase inhibitors in the clinic. The proteomics and RNA seq dataset may be of general use to the community, particularly for analysis of IL-15 or IL-2 stimulated CD8+ T cells.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments supporting the robustness and usefulness of our data.

      Weaknesses:

      It would be good to perform some experiments in human T cells too, given the ease of e.g., the small molecule inhibitor experiment.

      The suggestions to check PIM inhibitor effects in human T cell is a good one. We think an ideal experiment would be to use naïve cord blood derived CD4 and CD8 cells as a model to avoid the impact of variability in adult PBMC and to really look at what PIM kinases do as T cells first respond to antigen and cytokines. In this context there is good evidence that the signalling pathways used by antigen receptors or the cytokines IL-2 and IL-15 are not substantially different in mouse and human. We have also previously compared proteomes of mouse and human IL-2 expanded cytotoxic T cells and they are remarkably similar. As such we feel that mature mouse CD8 T cells are a genetically tractable model to use to probe the signalling pathways that control cytotoxic T cell function. To repeat the full set of experiments observed within this study with human T cells would represent 1-year of work by an experienced postdoctoral fellow.

      Unfortunately, the funding for the project has come to an end and there is no capacity to complete this work.

      Would also be good for the authors to include a few experiments where PIM1/2 have been transduced back into the PIM1/2 KO T cells, to see if this reverts any differences observed in response to IL-2 - although the reviewer notes that the timeline for altering primary T cells via lentivirus/CRISPR may be on the cusp of being practical such that functional experiments can be performed on day 6 after first stimulating T cells.

      A rescue experiment could indeed be informative, though of course comes with challenges/caveats with re-expressing both proteins that have been deleted at once and ability to control the level of PIM kinase that is re-expressed. This work using the Pim dKO mice was performed from 2019-2021 and was seriously impacted by the work restrictions during the COVID19 pandemic. We had to curtail all mouse colonies to allow animal staff to work within the legal guidelines. We had to make choices and the Pim1/2 dKO colony was stopped because we felt we had generated very useful data from the work but could not justify continued maintenance of the colony at such a difficult time. As such we no longer have this mouse line to perform these rescue experiments.

      We have however, performed a limited number of retroviral overexpression studies in WT IL-2-expanded CTL, where T cells were transfected after 24 hours activation and phenotype measured on day 6 of culture. We chose to leave these out of the initial manuscript as these were overexpression under conditions where PIM expression was already high, rather than a true test of the ability of PIM1 or PIM2 to rescue the Pim dKO phenotype. A more robust test would also have required doing these overexpression experiments in IL-15 expanded or cytokine deprived CTL where PIM kinase expression is low, however, we ran out of time and funding to complete this work.

      We have provided Author response image 1 below from the experiments performed in the IL-2 CTL for interested readers. The limited experiments that were performed do support some key phenotypes observed with the Pim dKO mice or PIM inhibitors, finding that PIM1 or PIM2 overexpression was sufficient to increase S6 phosphorylation, and provided a small further increase in GzmB expression above the already very high levels in IL-2 expanded CTL.

      Author response image 1.

      PIM1 or PIM2 overexpression drives increased GzmB expression and S6 phosphorylation in WT IL-2 CTL. OT1 lymph node cell suspensions were activated for 24 hours with SIINFEKL peptide (10 ng/mL), IL-2 (20 ng/mL) and IL-12 (2 ng/mL) then transfected with retroviruses to drive expression of PIM1-GFP, PIM2-GFP fusion proteins or a GFP only control. T cells were split into fresh media and IL-2 daily and (A) GzmB expression and (B) S6 phosphorylation assessed by flow cytometry in GFP+ve vs GFP-ve CD8 T cells 5 days post-transfection (i.e. day 6 of culture). Histograms are representative of 2 independent experiments.

      Other experiments could also look at how PIM1/2 KO influences the differentiation of T cell populations/states during ex vivo stimulation of PBMCs or in vivo infection models using (high-dimensional) flow cytometry (rather than using bulk proteomics/RNA seq which only provide an overview of all cells combined).

      We did consider the idea of in vivo experiments with the Pim1/2 dKO mice but rejected this idea as the mice have lost PIM kinases in all tissues and so we would not be able to understand if any phenotype was CD8 T cell selective. To note the Pim1/2 dKO mice are smaller than normal wild type mice (discussed further below) and clearly have complex phenotypes. An ideal experiment would be to make mice with floxed Pim1 and Pim2 alleles so that one could use cre recombinase to make a T cell-specific deletion and then study the impact of this in in vivo models. We did not have the budget or ethical approval to make these mice. Moreover, this study was carried out during the COVID pandemic when all animal experiments in the UK were severely restricted. So our objective was to get a molecular understanding of the consequences of losing theses kinases for CD8 T cells focusing on using controlled in vitro systems. We felt that this would generate important data that would guide any subsequent experiments by other groups interested in these enzymes.

      We do accept the comment about bulk population proteomics. Unfortunately, single cell proteomics is still not an option at this point in time. High resolution multidimensional flow cytometry is a valuable technique but is limited to looking at only a few proteins for which good antibodies exist compared to the data one gets with high resolution proteomics.

      Alongside this, performing a PCA of bulk RNA seq/proteomes or Untreated vs. IL-2 vs. IL-15 of WT and PIM1/2 knockout T cells would help cement their argument in the discussion about PIM1/2 knockout cells being distinct from a memory phenotype.

      We thank the reviewer for this very good suggestion. We have now included PCAs for the RNAseq and proteomics datasets of IL-2 and IL-15 expanded WT vs Pim dKO CTL in Fig S5 and added the following text to the discussion section of the manuscript (lines 429-431):

      “… and PCA plots of IL-15 and IL-2 proteomics and RNAseq data show that Pim dKO IL-2 expanded CTL are still much more similar to IL-2 expanded WT CTL than to IL-15 expanded CTL (Fig S5)”.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In panel B of Figure S1, are the smaller numbers of splenocytes found in dKO fully accounted for by a reduction in the numbers of T cells or also correspond to a reduction in B cell numbers? Are the thymus and lymph nodes showing the same trend?

      We’re happy to clarify on this.

      Since we were focused on T cell phenotypes in the paper this is what we have plotted in this figure, however there is also a reduction in total number of B, NK and NKT cells in the Pim dKO mice (see James et al, Nat Commun, 2021 for additional subset percentages). We find that all immune subsets we have measured make up the same % of the spleen in Pim dKO vs WT mice (we show this for T cell subsets in what was formerly Fig S1C and is now Fig S1A), the total splenocyte count is just lower in the Pim dKO mice (which we show in what was formerly Fig S1B and is now Fig S1C). To note, the Pim dKO mice were smaller than their WT counterparts (though we have not formally weighed and quantified this) and we think this is likely the major factor leading to lower total splenocyte numbers.

      We have not checked the thymus so can’t comment on this. We can confirm that lymph nodes from Pim dKO mice had the same number and % CD4 and CD8 T cells as in WT.

      For our in vitro studies we have made sure to either use co-cultures or for single WT and Pim dKO cultures to equalise starting cell densities between wells to account for the difference in total splenocyte number. We have now clarified this point in the methods section lines 682-684

      “For generation of memory-like or effector cytotoxic T lymphocytes (CTL) from mice with polyclonal T cell repertoires, LN or spleen single cell suspensions at an equal density for WT and Pim dKO cultures (~1-3 million live cells/mL)….”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Line 89-99 - PIM kinase expression is elevated in T cells in autoimmunity and inhibiting therefore may make some sense if PIM is enhancing T cell activity. Why then would you use an inhibitor in cancer settings? This needs better clarification for readers, with reference to T cells, particularly given this is an important justification for looking at PIM kinases in T cells.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the lack of clarity in our explanation here.

      PIM kinase inhibitors alone are proposed as anti-tumour therapies for select cancers to block tumour growth. However so far these monotherapies haven’t been very effective in clinical trials and combination treatment options with a number of strategies are being explored. There are two lines of logic for why PIM kinase inhibitors might be a good combination with an e.g. anti-PD1 or adoptive T cell immunotherapy. 1) PIM kinase inhibition has been shown to reduce inhibitory/suppressive surface proteins (e.g. PDL1) and cytokine (e.g. TGFbeta) expression in tumour cells and macrophages in the tumour microenvironment. 2) Inhibiting glycolysis and increasing memory/stem-like phenotype has been identified as desirable for longer-lasting more potent anti-tumour T cell immunity. PIM kinase inhibition has been shown to reduce glycolytic function and increase several ‘stemness’ promoting transcription factors e.g. TCF7 in a previous study. Controlled murine cancer models have shown improvement in clearance with the combination of pan-Pim kinase inhibitors and anti-PD1/PDL1 treatments (Xin et al, Cancer Immunol Res, 2021 and Chatterjee et al, Clin Cancer Res 2019).

      It is worth noting, this is seemingly contradictory with other studies of Pim kinases in T cells that have generally found Pim1/2/3 deletion or inhibition in T cells to be suppressive of their function.

      We have clarified this reasoning/seeming conflict of results in the introductory text as follows (lines 90-101):

      “PIM kinase inhibitors have also entered clinical trials to treat some cancers (e.g. multiple myeloma, acute myeloid leukaemia, prostate cancer), and although they have not been effective as a monotherapy, there is interest in combining these with immunotherapies. This is due to studies showing PIM inhibition reducing expression of inhibitory molecules (e.g. PD-L1) on tumour cells and macrophages in the tumour microenvironment and a reported increase of stem-like properties in PIM-deficient T cells which could potentially drive longer lasting anti-cancer responses (Chatterjee et al., 2019; Xin et al., 2021; Clements and Warfel, 2022). However, PIM kinase inhibition has also generally been shown to be inhibitory for T cell activation, proliferation and effector activities (Fox et al., 2003; Mikkers et al., 2004; Jackson et al., 2021) and use of PIM kinase inhibitors could have the side effect of diminishing the anti-tumour T cell response.”  

      Line 93 - The use of 'some cancers' is rather vague and unscientific - please correct phrasing like this. The same goes for lines 54 and 77 (some kinases and some analyses).

      We have clarified the sentence in what is now Line 91 to include examples of some of the cancers that PIM kinase inhibitors have been explored for (see text correction in response to previous reviewer comment), which are predominantly haematological malignancies. The use of the phrase ‘some kinases’ and ‘some analyses’ in what are now Lines 52 and 75 is in our view appropriate as the subsequent sentence/(s) provide specific details on the kinases and analyses that are being referred to.

      Lines 146-147 - Could it be that rather than redundancies, PIM KO is simply not influential on TCR/CD28 signalling in general but influences other pathways in the T cell?

      We agree that the lack of PIM1/2 effect could also be because PIM targets downstream of TCR/CD28 are not influential and have clarified the text as follows (lines 156-161):

      “These experiments quantified expression of >7000 proteins but found no substantial quantitative or qualitative differences in protein content or proteome composition in activated WT versus Pim dKO CD4 and CD8 T cells (Fig 1G-H) (Table S1). Collectively these results indicate that PIM kinases do not play an important unique role in the signalling pathways used by the TCR and CD28 to control T cell activation.”

      Line 169 - Instead of specifying control - maybe put upregulate or downregulate for clarity.

      We have changed the text as per reviewer suggestion (see line 183)

      Line 182-183 - I would move the call out for Figure 2D to after the last call out for Figure 2C to make it more coherent for readers.

      We have changed the text as per reviewer suggestion (see lines 197-200)

      Line 190 - 14,000 RNA? total, unique? mRNA?

      These are predominantly mRNA since a polyA enrichment was performed as part of the standard TruSeq stranded mRNA sample preparation process, however, a small number of lncRNA etc were also detected in our RNA sequencing. We left the results in as part of the overall analysis since it may be of interest to others but don’t look into it further. We do mention the existence of the non-mRNA briefly in the subsequent sentence when discussing the total number of DE RNA that were classified as protein coding vs non-coding.

      We have edited this sentence as follows to more accurately reflect that the RNA being referred to is polyA+ (lines 205-207):

      “The RNAseq analysis quantified ~14,000 unique polyA+ mRNA and using a cut off of >1.5 fold-change and q-value <0.05 we saw that the abundance of 381 polyA+ RNA was modified by Pim1/Pim2-deficiency (Fig 2E) (Table S2A).

      Questions/points regarding figures:

      Figure 1 - Is PIM3 changed in expression with the knockout of PIM1/2 in mice? Although the RNA is low could there be some compensation here? The authors put a good amount of effort in to showing that mouse T cells do not exhibit differences from knocking out pim1/2 i.e., Efforts have been made to address this using activation markers and cell size, cytokines, and proliferation and proteomics of activated T cells. What do the resting T cells look like though? Although TCR signalling is not impacted, other pathways might be. Resting-state comparison may identify this.

      In all experiments Pim3 mRNA was only detected at very low levels and no PIM3 protein was detected by mass spectrometry in either wild type or PIM1/2 double KO TCR activated or cytokine expanded CD8 T cells (See Tables S1, S3, S4). There was similarly no change in Pim3 mRNA expression in RNAseq of IL-2 or IL-15 expanded CD8 T cells (See Tables S2, S6). While we have not confirmed this in resting state cells for all the conditions examined, there is no evidence that PIM3 compensates for PIM1/2deficiency or that PIM3 is substantially expressed in T cells.

      Figure 1A&B - Does PIM kinase stay elevated when removing TCR stimulus? During egress from lymph node and trafficking to infection/tumour/autoimmune site, T cells experience a period of 'rest' from T-cell activation so is PIM upregulation stabilized, or does it just coincide with activation? This could be a crucial control given the rest of the study focuses on day 6 after initial activation (which includes 4 days of 'rest' from TCR stimulation). Nice resolution on early time course though.

      This is an interesting question. Unfortunately, we do not know how sensitive PIM kinases are to TCR stimulus withdrawal, as we have not tried removing the TCR stimulus during early activation and measuring PIM expression.

      Based on the data in Fig 2A there is a hint that 4 hours withdrawal of peptide stimulus may be enough to lose PIM1/2 expression (after ~36 hrs of TCR activation), however, we did not include a control condition where peptide is retained within the culture. Therefore, we cannot resolve this question from the current experimental data, as this difference could also be due to a further increase in PIMs in the cytokine treated conditions rather than a reduction in expression in the no cytokine condition. This ~36-hour time point is also at a stage where T cells have become more dependent on cytokines for their sustained signalling compared to TCR stimulus.

      It is worth noting that PIM kinases are thought to have fairly short mRNA and protein half lives (~5-20 min for PIM1 in primary cells, ~10 min – 1 hr for PIM2). This is consistent with previous observations that cytotoxic T cells need sustained IL-2/Jak signalling to sustain PIM kinase expression, e.g. in Rollings et al (2018) Sci Signaling, DOI:10.1126/scisignal.aap8112 . We would therefore expect that sustained signalling from some external signalling receptor whether this is TCR, costimulatory receptors or cytokines is required to drive Pim1/2 mRNA and protein expression.

      Figure 1D - the CD4 WT and Pim dKO plots are identical - presumably a copying error - please correct.

      We apologise for the copying error and have amended the manuscript to show the correct data. We thank the reviewer for noticing this mistake.

      In Figure 1H - there is one protein found significant - would be nice to mention what this is - for example, if this is a protein that influences TCR levels this could be quite important.

      The protein is Phosphoribosyl Pyrophosphate synthase 1 like 1 (Prps1l1).

      This was a low confidence quantification (based on only 2 peptides) with no known function in T cells. Based on what is known, this gene is predominantly expressed in the testis (though also detected in spleen, lung, liver). A whole-body KO mouse found no difference in male fertility. No further phenotype has been reported in this mouse. See: Wang et al (2018) Mol Reprod Dev, DOI: 10.1002/mrd.23053

      We have added the following text to the legend of Figure 1H to address this protein:

      “Phosphoribosyl Pyrophosphate synthase 1 like 1 (Prps1l1), was found to be higher in Pim dKO CD8 T cells, but was a low confidence quantification (based on only 2 unique peptides) with no known function in T cells.”

      Figure S1 - In your mouse model the reduction in CD4 T cells is quite dramatic in the spleen - is this reduced homing or reduced production of T cells through development?

      Could you quantify the percentage of CD45+ cells that are T cells from blood too? Would be good to have a more thorough analysis of this new mouse model.

      We apologise for the lack of clarity around the Pim dKO mouse phenotype. Something we didn’t mention previously due to a lack of a formal measurement is that the Pim dKO mice were typically smaller than their WT counterparts. This is likely the main reason for total splenocytes being lower in the Pim dKO mice - every organ is smaller. It is not a phenotype reported in Pim1/2 dKO mice on an FVB background, though has been reported in the Pim1/2/3 triple KO mouse before (see Mikkers et al, Mol Cell Biol 2004 doi: 10.1128/MCB.24.13.6104-6115.2004).

      The % cell type composition of the spleen is equivalent between WT and Pim dKO mice and as mentioned above, was controlled for when setting up of our in vitro cultures.

      We have revised the main text and changed the order of the panels in Fig S1 to make this caveat clearer as follows (lines 138-144):

      “There were normal proportions of peripheral T cells in spleens of Pim dKO mice (Fig S1A) similar to what has been reported previously in Pim dKO mice on an FVB/N genetic background (Mikkers et al., 2004), though the total number of T cells and splenocytes was lower than in age/sex matched wild-type (WT) mouse spleens (Fig S1B-C). This was not attributable to any one cell type (Fig S1A)(James et al., 2021) but was instead likely the result of these mice being smaller in size, a phenotype that has previously been reported in Pim1/2/3 triple KO mice (Mikkers et al., 2004).”

      Figure S1C - why are only 10-15% of the cells alive? Please refer to this experiment in the main text if you are going to include it in the supplementary figure.

      With regards what was previously Fig S1C (now Fig S1A) we apologise for our confusing labelling. We were quoting these numbers as the percentage of live splenocytes (i.e. % of live cells). Typically ~80-90% of the total splenocytes were alive by the time we had processed, stained and analysed them by flow cytometry direct ex vivo. Of these CD4 and CD8 T cells made up ~%10-15 of the total live splenocytes (with most of the rest of the live cells being B cells).  

      We have modified the axis to say “% of splenocytes” to make it clearer that this is what we are plotting.

      Figure S1 - Would be good to show that the T cells are truly deficient in PIM1/2 in your mice to be absolutely sure. You could just make a supplementary plot from your mass spec data.

      This is a good suggestion and we have now included this data as supplementary figure 2.

      To note, due to the Pim1 knockout mouse design this is not as simple as showing presence or absence of total PIM1 protein detection in this instance.

      To elaborate: the Pim1/Pim2 whole body KO mice used in this study were originally made by Prof Anton Berns’ lab (Pim1 KO = Laird et al Nucleic Acids Res, 1993, doi: 10.1093/nar/21.20.4750, with more detail on deletion construct in te Riele, H. et al, Nature,1990, DOI: 10.1038/348649a0; Pim2 KO = Mikkers et al, Mol Cell Biol, 2004, DOI: 10.1128/MCB.24.13.6104-6115.2004). They were given to Prof Victor Tybulewicz on an FVB/N background. He then backcrossed them onto the C57BL/6 background for > 10 generations then gave them to us to intercross into Pim1/2 dKO mice on a C57BL/6 background.

      The strategy for Pim1 deletion was as follows:

      A neomycin cassette was recombined into the Pim1 gene in exon 4 deleting 296 Pim1 nucleotides. More specifically, the 98th pim-1 codon (counted from the ATG start site = the translational starting point for the 34 kDa isoform of PIM1) was fused in frame by two extra codons (Ser, Leu) to the 5th neo codon (pKM109-90 was used). The 3'-end of neo included a polyadenylation signal. The cassette also contains the PyF101 enhancer (from piiMo +PyF101) to ensure expression of neo on homologous recombination in ES cells.

      Collectively this means that the PIM1 polypeptide is made prior to amino acid 98 of the 34 kDa isoform but not after this point. This deletes functional kinase activity in both the 34 kDa and 44 kDa PIM1 isoforms. Ablation of PIM1 kinase function using this KO was verified via kinase activity assay in Laird et al. Nucelic Acids Res 1993.

      The strategy to delete Pim2 was as follows:

      “For the Pim2 targeting construct, genomic BamHI fragments encompassing Pim2 exons 1, 2, and 3 were replaced with the hygromycin resistance gene (Pgp) controlled by the human PGK promoter.” (Mikkers et al Mol Cell Biol, 2004)

      The DDA mass spectrometry data collected in Fig 1 G-H and supplementary table 1 confirmed we do not detect peptides from after amino acid residue 98 in PIM1 (though we do detect peptides prior to this deletion point) and we do not detect peptides from the PIM2 protein in the Pim dKO mice. Thus confirming that no catalytically active PIM1/PIM2 proteins were made in these mice.

      We have added a supplementary figure S2 showing this and the following text (Lines 155-156):

      “Proteomics analysis confirmed that no catalytically active PIM1 and PIM2 protein were made in Pim dKO mice (Fig S2).”

      Figure 2A - I found the multiple arrows a little confusing - would just use arrows to indicate predicted MW of protein and stars to indicate non-specific. Why are there 3 bands/arrows for PIM2?  

      The arrows have now been removed. We now mention the PIM1 and PIM2 isoform sizes in the figure legend and have left the ladder markings on the blots to give an indication of protein sizes. There are 2 isoforms for PIM1 (34 and 44 kDa) in addition to the nonspecific band and 3 isoforms of PIM2 (40, 37, 34 kDa, though two of these isoform bands are fairly faint in this instance). These are all created via ribosome use of different translational start sites from a single Pim1 or Pim2 mRNA transcript.

      The following text has been added to the legend of Fig 2A:

      “Western blots of PIM1 (two isoforms of 44 and 34 kDa, non-specific band indicated by *), PIM2 (three isoforms of 40, 37 and 34 kDa) or pSTAT5 Y694 expression.”

      Figure 2A - why are the bands so faint for PIM1/2 (almost non-existent for PIM2 under no cytokine stim) here yet the protein expression seems abundant in Figure 1B upon stim without cytokines? Is this a sensitivity issue with WB vs proteomics? My apologies if I have missed something in the methods but please explain this discrepancy if not.

      There is differing sensitivity of western blotting versus proteomics, but this is not the reason for the discrepancy between the data in Fig 1B versus 2A. These differences reflect that Fig1 B and Fig 2A contrast PIM levels in two different sets of conditions and that while proteomics allows for an estimate of ‘absolute abundance’ Western blotting only shows relative expression between the conditions assessed.  

      To expand on this… Fig 1B proteomics looks at naïve versus 24 hr aCD3/aCD28 TCR activated T cells. The western blot data in Fig 2A looks at T cells activated for 1.5 days with SIINFEKL peptide and then washed free of the media containing the TCR stimulus and cultured with no stimulus for 4 or 24 hrs hours and contrast this with cells cultured with IL-2 or IL-15 for 4 or 24 hours. All Fig 2A can tell us is that cytokine stimuli increases and/or sustains PIM1 and PIM2 protein above the level seen in TCR activated cells which have not been cultured with cytokine for a given time period. Overexposure of the blot does reveal detectable PIM1 and PIM2 protein in the no cytokine condition after 4 hrs. Whether this is equivalent to the PIM level in the 24 hr TCR activated cells in Fig 1B is not resolvable from this experiment as we have not included a sample from a naïve or 24 hr TCR activated T cell to act as a point of reference.

      Figure 4F - Your proteomics data shows substantial downregulation in proteomics data for granzymes and ifny- possibly from normalization to maximise the differences in the graph - and yet your flow suggests there are only modest differences. Can you explain why a discrepancy in proteomics and flow data - perhaps presenting in a more representative manner (e.g., protein counts)?

      The heatmaps are a scaled for ‘row max’ to ‘row min’ copy number comparison on a linear scale and do indeed visually maximise differences in expression between conditions. This feature of these heatmaps is also what makes the lack of difference in GzmB and GzmA at the mRNA heatmap in Fig 5C quite notable.

      We have now included bar graphs of Granzymes A and B and IFNg protein copy number in Figure 4 (see new Fig 4G-H) to make clearer the magnitude of the effect on the major effector proteins involved in CTL killing function. It is worth noting that flow cytometry histograms from what was formerly Fig 4G (now Fig 4I) are on a log-scale so the shift in fluorescence does generally correspond well with the ~1.7-2.75-fold reduction in protein expression observed.

      Figure 4G - did you use isotype controls for this flow experiment? Would help convince labelling has worked - particularly for low levels of IFNy production.

      We did not use isotype controls in these experiments but we are using a well validated interferon gamma antibody and very carefully colour panel/compensation controls to minimise background staining. The only ways to be 100% confident that an antibody is selective is to use an interferon gamma null T cell which we do not have. We do however know that the antibody we use gives flow cytometry data consistent with other orthogonal approaches to measure interferon gamma e.g. ELISA and mass spectrometry.

      Figure 5M - why perform this with just the PIM kinase inhibitors? Can you do this readout for the WT vs. PIM1/2KO cells too? This would really support your claims for the paper about PIM influencing translation given the off-target effects of SMIs.

      Regrettably we have not done this particular experiment with the Pim dKO T cells. As mentioned above, due to this work being performed predominantly during the COVID19 pandemic we ultimately had to make the difficult decision to cease colony maintenance. When work restrictions were lifted we could not ethically or economically justify resurrecting a mouse colony for what was effectively one experiment, which is why we chose to test this key biological question with small molecule inhibitors instead.

      We appreciate that SMIs have off target effects and this is why we used multiple panPIM kinase inhibitors for our SMI validation experiments. While the use of 2 different inhibitors still doesn’t completely negate the concern about possible off-target effects, our conclusions re: PIM kinases and impact on proteins synthesis are not solely based on the inhibitor work but also based on the decreased protein content of the PIM1/2 dKO T cells in the IL-2 CTL, and the data quantifying reductions in levels of many proteins but not their coding mRNA in PIM1/2dKO T cells compared to controls.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the reviewers for their positive and constructive evaluations. Based upon the reviewers’ helpful comments, we have performed complementary experiments. In particular, we additionally show that:

      • a complete analysis of CXCR1/2 binding chemokines in the secretions of tissular CD8+ T cells reinforces the key role of CXCL8 in CD8+ T cell-induced fibrocyte chemotaxis (new panel D in Figure 2)

      • a direct contact between fibrocytes and CD8+ T cells triggers CD8+ T cell cytotoxicity against primary basal bronchial epithelial cells (new Figure 6)

      • the interaction between CD8+ T cells and fibrocytes is bidirectional, with CD8+ T cells triggering the development of fibrocyte immune properties (new Figure 7)

      • the characteristic time to reach a stationary state reminiscent of a resolution of the COPD condition was estimated to be about 2.5 years using the simulations. Interfering with chemotaxis and adhesion processes by inhibiting CXCR1/2 and CD54, respectively was not sufficient to reverse the COPD condition, as predicted by the mathematical model (new Figure 9)

      • the massive proliferation effect induced by fibrocytes is specific to CD8+ T cells and not CD4+ T cells (new Figure 3-figure supplement 2), and that fibrocytes moderately promote the death of unactivated CD8+ T cells in direct co-culture (new Figure 3-figure supplement 3)

      We have graphically summarized our findings (new Figure 10) suggesting the existence of a positive feedback loop playing a role in the vicious cycle that promotes COPD. A new table describing patient characteristics for basal bronchial epithelial cell purification has also been added (new Supplementary File 9), the Supplementary Files 7 and S8 have been up-dated to take into account the new experiments.

      The mass spectrometry proteomics data have been deposited to the ProteomeXchange Consortium (http://proteomecentral.proteomexchange.org) via the PRIDE partner repository with the dataset identifier PXD041402.  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The experimental approaches are all rationally designed and the data clearly presented, with appropriate analyses and sample sizes. I could find no technical or interpretative concerns. The interrelationship between the observational data (histology) with the quantitative live cell imaging and the follow-on functional investigations is especially laudable. The data nicely unifies several years of accumulated data regarding the (separate) participation of CD8 T cells and fibrocytes in COPD.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her comments.

      I have only minor comments:

      1) Line 79: The observation that T cells may influence fibrocyte differentiation/function was initially made some years earlier by Abe et al (J Immunol 2001; 7556), and should be cited in addition to the follow-on work of Niedermeyer.

      This reference has been added to acknowledge this seminal work.

      2) Line 632: Corticosteroids originate from the cortex of the adrenal gland. Budenoside and fluticasone are glucocorticoids, not corticosteroids.

      This mistake has been corrected in the discussion of the revised manuscript (see line 802 in the revised manuscript).

      3) Given the state of T cell immunotherapies, cytokine/chemokine antagonists, and emerging fibrocyte-targeted drugs, can the authors possibly speculate as to desired pathways to target therapeutically?

      Chemokine-receptor based therapies could be used to inhibit fibrocyte recruitment into the lungs, such as CXCR4 blockade. We have very recently shown that using the CXCR4 antagonist, plerixafor, alleviates bronchial obstruction and reduces peri-bronchial fibrocytes density (Dupin et al., 2023). Because CXCR4 expression in human fibrocytes is dependent on mTOR signaling and is inhibited by rapamycin in vitro (Mehrad et al., 2009), alternative strategies consisting of targeting fibrocytes via mTOR have been proposed. This target has proven effective in bronchiolitis obliterans, idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis, and thyroid-associated ophthalmopathy, using rapamycin (Gillen et al., 2013; Mehrad et al., 2009), sirolimus (Manjarres et al., 2023) or an insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-I) receptor blocking antibody (Douglas et al., 2020; Smith et al., 2017). Inhibiting mTOR is also expected to have effects on CD8+ T cells, ranging from an immunostimulatory effect by activation of memory CD8+ T-cell formation, to an immunosuppressive effect by inhibition of T cell proliferation (Araki et al., 2010). Last, chemokine-receptor base therapies could also include strategies to inhibit the CD8+-induced fibrocyte chemotaxis, such as dual CXCR1-CXCR2 blockade. We were able to test this latter strategy in our mathematical model, see response to point 6 of reviewer 2.

      Immunotherapies directly targeting the interaction between fibrocytes and CD8+ T cells could also be considered, such as CD86 or CD54 blockade. The use of abatacept and belatacept, that interfere with T cell co-stimulation, is effective in patients with rheumatoid arthritis (Pombo-Suarez & Gomez-Reino, 2019) and in kidney-transplant recipients (Vincenti et al., 2016), respectively. Targeting the IGF-I receptor by teprotumumab in the context of thyroid-associated ophthalmopathy also improved disease outcomes, possibly by altering fibrocyte-T cell interactions (Bucala, 2022; Fernando et al., 2021).

      We also tested this CD86 and CD54 blocking strategy for COPD treatment by simulations, see response to point 6 of reviewer 2.

      However, such therapies should be used with caution as they may favour adverse events such as infections, particularly in the COPD population (Rozelle & Genovese, 2007). Additionally, the fibrocytes-lymphocytes interaction has recently been shown to promote anti-tumoral immunity via the PD1-PDL1 immunological synapse (Afroj et al., 2021; Mitsuhashi et al., 2023). Therefore, care should be taken in the selection of patients to be treated and/or timing of treatment administration with regards to the increased risk of lung cancer in COPD patients.

      The discussion section has been altered accordingly.

      4) The authors may want to consider mentioning (and citing) recent insight into the immune-mediated fibrosis in thyroid-associated ophthalmopathy

      These important publications are now cited in a dedicated paragraph about the possible therapeutical interventions (see answer to point 3, and discussion in the revised manuscript).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Specific comments

      1) The rationale for the selection of chemokines overexpressed by CD8+ T cells in COPD is based on literature data of n=2 patients per group. This is limited and risky. I am less concerned about false positives given the selection of chemokines and the available literature but am worried about the possibility that many chemokines may not have been selected based on insufficient power to do meaningful stats on this comparison. For example, many other CXCR1/2 binding CXCL chemokines exist and these could contribute to the migration effect in Fig 2C as well. Given the currently available single-cell resources it should be possible to extend these observations and to investigate CXCL chemokine expression in COPD CD8 T cells to the benefit of Fig 2A in full detail.

      We agree with the reviewer that the rationale for the selection of chemokines of interest could be reinforced by the analysis of supplementary single-cell resources. We used data from the COPD cell atlas (Gene Expression Omnibus GSE136831 (Sauler et al., 2022)) to perform such an analysis of chemokine expression by CD8+ CD103+ and CD8+ CD103- T cells. However, the expression level of all chemokines was globally very low, and was not different between control and COPD patients (see Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1.

      Expression of CXC chemokines in lung CD8+ CD103+ and CD8+ CD103- T cells from patients with COPD (n=18 independent samples) in comparison with healthy control subjects (n=29 independent samples) under resting conditions by Single-Cell RNA sequencing analysis (GEO accession GSE136831). The heatmaps show the normalized expression of genes (horizontal axes) encoding CXC chemokines. PF4=CXCL4, PPBP= CXCL7.

      The latter results are in discrepancy with those resulting from transcriptomic analysis of microarray data obtained on purified lung CD8+ CD103+ and CD8+ CD103- T cells, showing a significant level of chemokines expression (Hombrink et al., 2016), and a differential expression of CCL2, CCL26, CXCL2, CXCL8 and CCL3L1 between CD8+ T lymphocytes of control and COPD patients (Figure 2A in the revised manuscript). The reason for these differences is unclear, and could be attributed to biological differences (samples obtained from different patients) or, more likely, to differences in sample processing (cell sorting by flow cytometry for microarray analysis, that could activate minimally CD8+ cells) and/or methodological differences (differences of sensitivity between microarray and scRNA seq).

      Nevertheless, microarray data regarding CXCL8 expression are in good agreement with our in vitro experiments, showing an enhanced CXCL8 expression by CD8+ T cells purified from COPD lungs, in comparison with that of control subjects. In addition, the CXCL8 blocking antibody fully abrogates the increase of migration induced by secretion of COPD CD8+ T cells, to the same extent as the blocking of CXCR1/2 by reparixin. This suggests that this supplementary chemotaxis is mainly due to CXCL8 and not other CXCR1/2 binding CXCL chemokines, and correlates CXCL8 measurements to functional experiments. This precision has been now added in the results section of the revised version.

      2) Equally, it would strengthen the work if multiplex ELISA assays could be provided on the supernatants used in Fig 2D to provide a more comprehensive view of CXCR1/2 binding chemokines.

      In order to have a complete view of CXCR1/2 binding chemokines, we have now performed supplementary ELISA assays to measure the concentrations of CXCL1, 3, 5, 6 and 7, in addition of the measurements of CXCL2 and CXCL8 already presented in the previous version of the manuscript (Figure 2D). Results of these new assays are now presented in the revised version of Figure 2. Concentrations of CXCL1, 3, 5, 6 and 7 were unchanged between the control and COPD conditions.

      3) In the functional analyses, I missed information on the activation of the fibrocytes. Equally, the focus on CD8 T cells was mainly on proliferation in the functional work. RNAseq analyses on the cells, comparing CD8 T cells and fibrocytes, alone and in co-culture to each other would help to identify interaction patterns in comprehensive detail. Such an experiment would bolster the significance of the studies by providing impact analysis not only on the T cells beyond proliferation but by expanding on the effect of the interaction on the fibrocyte as well.

      Regarding the activation state of fibrocytes, we apologize if this was not clear: in our in vitro co-culture experiments, we chose not to activate the fibrocytes. This setting is in agreement with previous findings, demonstrating an antigen-independent T cell proliferation effect driven by fibrocytes (Nemzek et al., 2013), and it is now explicitly written in the results of the revised manuscript.

      Regarding the focus of the functional analyses:

      First, we have pushed forward the analysis of the consequences of the interaction beyond CD8+ T cells proliferation. In particular, having shown that fibrocytes promote CD8+ T cells expression of cytotoxic molecules such as granzyme B, we decided to investigate the cytotoxic capacity of CD8+ T cells against primary basal bronchial epithelial cells (see new Supplementary File 9 in the revised manuscript for patient characteristics).

      Direct co-culture with fibrocytes increased total and membrane expression of the cytotoxic degranulation marker CD107a, which was only significant in non-activated CD8+ T cells (see new Figure 6A-E in the revised manuscript). A parallel increase of cytotoxicity against primary epithelial cells was observed in the same condition (see new Figure 6F-H in the revised manuscript). This demonstrates that following direct interaction with fibrocytes, CD8+ T cells have the ability to kill target cells such as bronchial epithelial cells. This is now included in the results section of the revised manuscript.

      Second, we have now performed proteomic analyses on fibrocytes, alone or in co-culture during 6 days with CD8+ T cells either non-activated or activated (see new Figure 7A in the revised manuscript). Of the top ten pathways that were most significantly activated in co-cultured vs mono-cultured fibrocytes, largest upregulated genes were those of the dendritic cell maturation box, the multiple sclerosis signaling pathway, the neuroinflammation signaling pathway and the macrophage classical signaling pathway, irrespective of the activation state of CD8+ T cells (see new Figure 7B in the revised manuscript). The changes were globally identical in the two conditions of CD8+ T cell activation, with some upregulation more pronounced in the activated condition. They were mostly driven by up-regulation of a core set of Major Histocompatibility Complex class I (HLA-B, C, F) and II (HLA-DMB, DPA1, DPB1, DRA, DRB1, DRB3) molecules, co-simulatory and adhesion molecules (CD40, CD86 and CD54). Another notable proteomic signature was that of increased expression of IFN signaling-mediators IKBE and STAT1, and the IFN-responsive genes GBP2, GBP4 and RNF213. We also observed a strong downregulation of CD14, suggesting fibrocyte differentiation, and an upregulation of the matrix metalloproteinase-9 (MMP9) in the non-activated condition only. Altogether, these changes suggest that the interaction between CD8+ T cells and fibrocytes promotes the development of fibrocyte immune properties, which could subsequently impact the activation of CD4+ T cells activation.

      Up-regulated pathways identified in proteomic profile of fibrocytes co-cultured with CD8+ T cells are very consistent with a shift towards a proinflammatory phenotype rather than towards a reparative role. The activation of IFN-γ signaling could be triggered by CD8+ T cell secretion of IFN upon fibrocyte interaction, suggesting the existence of a positive feedback loop (see new Figure 10). Additionally, the priming of fibrocytes by CD8+ T cells could also induce CD4+ T cell activation.

      4) I suggest rewording the abstract to capture the main storyline and wording more. The abstract is good, but I see so many novelties in the paper that are not well sold in the abstract, particularly the modelling aspects.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we revised the abstract, as shown below and in the revised manuscript. The changes are indicated in red:

      Revised abstract:

      Bronchi of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) are the site of extensive cell infiltration, allowing persistent contacts between resident cells and immune cells. Tissue fibrocytes interaction with CD8+ T cells and its consequences were investigated using a combination of in situ, in vitro experiments and mathematical modeling. We show that fibrocytes and CD8+ T cells are found in vicinity in distal airways and that potential interactions are more frequent in tissues from COPD patients compared to those of control subjects. Increased proximity and clusterization between CD8+ T cells and fibrocytes are associated with altered lung function. Tissular CD8+ T cells from COPD patients promote fibrocyte chemotaxis via the CXCL8-CXCR1/2 axis. Live imaging shows that CD8+ T cells establish short-term interactions with fibrocytes, that trigger CD8+ T cell proliferation in a CD54- and CD86-dependent manner, pro-inflammatory cytokines production, CD8+ T cell cytotoxic activity against bronchial epithelial cells and fibrocyte immunomodulatory properties. We defined a computational model describing these intercellular interactions and calibrated the parameters based on our experimental measurements. We show the model’s ability to reproduce histological ex vivo characteristics, and observe an important contribution of fibrocyte-mediated CD8+ T cell proliferation in COPD development. Using the model to test therapeutic scenarios, we predict a recovery time of several years, and the failure of targeting chemotaxis or interacting processes. Altogether, our study reveals that local interactions between fibrocytes and CD8+ T cells could jeopardize the balance between protective immunity and chronic inflammation in bronchi of COPD patients.

      5) The probabilistic model appears to suggest that reduced CD8 T cell death may also explain the increase in the pathology in COPD. Did the authors find that fibrocytes reduce cell death of the CD8 T cells?

      Taking advantage of the staining of CD8+ T cells with the death marker Zombie NIR™, we have quantified CD8+ T cell death in our co-culture assay. The presence of fibrocytes in the indirect co-culture assay did not affect CD8+ T cell death (see new Figure 3-figure supplement 3A-B in the revised manuscript). In direct co-culture, the death of CD8+ T cells was significantly increased in the non-activated condition but not in the activated condition (see new Figure 3-figure supplement 3C-D in the revised manuscript). Of note, these results are in agreement with a recent study showing the existence of CD8+ T cell-population-intrinsic mechanisms regulating cellular behavior, with induction of apoptosis to avoid an excessive increase in T cell population (Zenke et al., 2020). This is taken into account in our mathematical model by an increased probability p_(dC+) of dying when a CD8+ T cell is surrounded by many other T cells in its neighborhood. It also suggests that the reduced CD8+ T cell death evidenced in tissues from patients with COPD (Siena et al., 2011) might not be due to the specific interplay between fibrocyte and CD8+ T cells, but rather to a global pro-survival environment in COPD lungs.

      These new data have been described in the results section.

      6) Following the modeling in Figure 6, curiosity came to mind, which is how long it would take for the pathology to disappear if a drug would be applied to the patient. How much should the interactions be reduced and how long would it take to reach clinical benefit? Could such predictions be made? I understand that this may be outside the main message of the manuscript but perhaps this could be included in the discussion.

      This is a very interesting question, that we have addressed by performing additional simulations to investigate the outcomes of possible therapeutic interventions. First, we applied a COPD dynamics during 20 years, to generate the COPD state, that provide the basis for treatment implementation. Then, we applied a COPD dynamic during 7 years, that mimics the placebo condition (see new Figure 9A in the revised manuscript, and below), that we compared to a control dynamics (“Total inhibition”), that mimics an ideal treatment able to restore all cellular processes. As expected the populations of fibrocytes and CD8+ T cells, as well as the density of mixed clusters, decreased. These numbers reached levels similar of healthy subjects after approximately 2.5 years, and this time point can therefore be considered as the steady state (Figure 9B-E).

      Monitoring of the different processes revealed that these effects were mainly due to a reduction in fibrocyte-induced CD8+ T duplication, and a transient or more prolonged increase in basal fibrocyte and CD8+ T death (Figure 9C-D).

      Then, three possible realistic treatments were considered (Figure 9A). We tested the effect of directly inhibiting the interaction between fibrocytes and CD8+ T cells by blocking CD54. This was implemented in the model by altering the increased probability of a CD8+ T cell to divide when a fibrocyte is in its neighbourhood, as shown by the co-culture results (Figure 4). We also chose to reflect the effect of a dual CXCR1/2 inhibition by setting the displacement function of fibrocyte similar to that of control dynamics, in agreement with the in vitro experiments (Figure 2E). Blocking CD54 only slightly reduced the density of CD8+ T cells compared to the placebo condition, and had no effect on fibrocyte and mixed cluster densities (Figure 9B). CXCR1/2 inhibition was a little bit more potent on the reduction of CD8+ T cells than CD54 inhibition, and it also significantly decreased the density of mixed clusters (Figure 9B). As expected, this occurred through a reduction of fibrocyte-induced duplication, which was affected more strongly by CXCR1/2 blockage than by CD54 blockage (Figure 9C-E). Combining both therapies (CD54 and CXCR1/2 inhibition) did not strongly major the effects (Figure 9B-E). In all the conditions tested, the size of the fibrocyte population remained unchanged, suggesting that other processes such as fibrocyte death or infiltration should be targeted to expect broader effects.

      The results section has been altered accordingly.

      Using the simulations, we were also able to estimate the characteristic time to reach a stationary state reminiscent of a resolution of the COPD condition. This time of approximately 2.5 years was totally unpredictable by in vitro experiments, and indicates that a treatment aiming at restoring these cellular processes should be continued during several years to obtain significant changes.

      We have also investigated the outcomes of more realistic treatments, modifying specifically processes such as chemotaxis or targeting directly the intercellular interactions. The modification of parameters controlling these processes only slightly affected the final state, suggesting that such treatments may be more effective when used in combination with other drugs e.g. those affecting fibrocyte infiltration and/or death.

      The discussion section has been altered accordingly.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) Broader assessment of cell types in the lung: Staining for other cell types such as dendritic cells, CD4 cells, and interstitial macrophages, and comparing their proximity to fibrocytes with that of CD8 cells would better justify the CD8 focus.

      We agree with the reviewer that multiple stainings would have better justified the focus on CD8+ T cells. However, it is difficult to distinguish fibrocytes, dendritic cells and interstitial macrophages on the basis of immunohistochemistry, as we and others previously showed (Dupin et al., 2019; Mitsuhashi et al., 2015; Pilling et al., 2009). On the other hand, the study of Afroj et al. indicated the possible interaction between fibrocytes and CD8+ T cells in cancer context, with the induction of CD8+ T cell proliferation (Afroj et al., 2021). This T cell-costimulatory function of fibrocytes and CD8+ T cells was further confirmed in a very recent study, together with the antitumor effects of PD-L1 and VEGF blockade (Mitsuhashi et al., 2023). These data, along with the specific implication on CD8+ T cells in COPD, relying mainly on their abundance in COPD bronchi (O’Shaughnessy et al., 1997), their overactivation state (Roos-Engstrand et al., 2009), their cytotoxic phenotype (Freeman et al., 2010; Wang et al., 2020) and the protection against lung inflammation and emphysema induced by their depletion (Maeno et al., 2007) justified the CD8 focus.

      To further justify this focus, we have now performed co-culture between fibrocytes and CD4+ T cells, indicating that the massive fibrocyte-mediated proliferation was specific to CD8+ T cells (see answer to comment 3 below). This is in agreement with the results obtained with the simulations, showing that considering fibrocytes and CD8+ T cells only was sufficient to reproduce the spatial patterns in the bronchi of healthy and COPD patients. Altogether, we think that focusing on the CD8+ T cell-fibrocyte interplay was pertinent in the context of COPD. It does obviously not exclude the possibility of other interactions, that could be the focus of other studies.

      2) Transcriptomic analysis: Using n=2 and only showing the chemokines as well as selected adhesion receptor data narrows the focus but does not provide broader insights into the interactions. Using a more robust sample size and performing a comprehensive pathway analysis would represent an unbiased analysis to determine the most dysregulated pathways. Importantly, the authors could use a single-cell RNA-seq dataset to broadly assess the transcriptomes of several cell types in the lung (such as the data from (Sauler et al, Characterization of the COPD alveolar niche using single-cell RNA sequencing).

      This very pertinent suggestion has also been raised by reviewer 2, see our answer to comment 1 of reviewer 2, and below:

      We agree with the reviewer that the rationale for the selection of chemokines of interest could be reinforced by the analysis of supplementary single-cell resources. We used data from the COPD cell atlas (Gene Expression Omnibus GSE136831 (Sauler et al., 2022)) to perform such an analysis of chemokine expression by CD8+ CD103+ and CD8+ CD103- T cells. However, the expression level of all chemokines was globally very low, and was not different between control and COPD patients (see Figure scRNAseq, in the answer to comment 1 of reviewer 2).

      These latter results are in discrepancy with those resulting from transcriptomic analysis of microarray data obtained on purified lung CD8+ CD103+ and CD8+ CD103- T cells, showing a significant level of chemokines expression (Hombrink et al., 2016), and a differential expression of CCL2, CCL26, CXCL2, CXCL8 and CCL3L1 between CD8+ T lymphocytes of control and COPD patients (Figure 2A in the revised manuscript). The reason for these differences is unclear, and could be attributed to biological differences (samples obtained from different patients) or, more likely, to differences in sample processing (cell sorting by flow cytometry for microarray analysis, that could activate minimally CD8+ cells) and/or methodological differences (differences of sensitivity between microarray and scRNA seq).

      Nevertheless, microarray data regarding CXCL8 expression are in good agreement with our in vitro experiments, showing an enhanced CXCL8 expression by CD8+ T cells purified from COPD lungs, in comparison with that of control subjects. In addition, the CXCL8 blocking antibody fully abrogates the increase of migration induced by secretion of COPD CD8+ T cells, to the same extent as the blocking of CXCR1/2 by reparixin. This suggests that this supplementary chemotaxis is mainly due to CXCL8 and not other CXCR1/2 binding CXCL chemokines, and correlates CXCL8 measurements to functional experiments. This precision has been now added in the text of the revised version.

      3) Inclusion of control/comparison cell types in co-culture studies would help establish that CD8 cells are more relevant for interactions with fibrocytes than for example CD4 cells.

      We have now performed co-cultures between fibrocytes and CD4+ T cells, with the same settings than for CD8+ T cells. The results from these experiments show that fibrocytes did not have any significant effect of CD4+ T cells death, regardless of their activation state (see new Figure 3-figure supplement 2A-C in the revised manuscript, and below). Fibrocytes were able to promote CD4+ T cells proliferation in the activated condition but not in the non-activated condition (see new Figure 3-figure supplement 2A-D in the revised manuscript). Altogether this indicates that although fibrocyte-mediated effect on proliferation is not specific to CD8+ T cells, the amplitude of the effect is much larger on CD8+ T cells than on CD4+ T cells.

      These new data have been added in the results section.

      4) In vitro analysis of cells from non-COPD patients would also help assess whether the circulating cells from COPD patients have a level of baseline activation which promotes the vicious cycle but may not exist in healthy cells.

      Regarding circulating cells, the present study relies on the COBRA cohort (COhort of BRonchial obstruction and Asthma), which includes only asthma and COPD patients, and therefore does not grant access to healthy subjects’ blood samples (Pretolani et al., 2017). Unfortunately, we have no other ongoing study with healthy subjects that would allow us to retrieve blood for research, and fibrocytes can only be grown from freshly drawn blood samples. We agree with the reviewer that it is a limitation of our study, which is now acknowledged at the end of the discussion section.  

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):  

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Shao et al. investigate the contribution of different cortical areas to working memory maintenance and control processes, an important topic involving different ideas about how the human brain represents and uses information when it is no longer available to sensory systems. In two fMRI experiments, they demonstrate that the human frontal cortex (area sPCS) represents stimulus (orientation) information both during typical maintenance, but even more so when a categorical response demand is present. That is, when participants have to apply an added level of decision control to the WM stimulus, sPCS areas encode stimulus information more than conditions without this added demand. These effects are then expanded upon using multi-area neural network models, recapitulating the empirical gradient of memory vs control effects from visual to parietal and frontal cortices. In general, the experiments and analyses provide solid support for the authors' conclusions, and control experiments and analyses are provided to help interpret and isolate the frontal cortex effect of interest. However, I suggest some alternative explanations and important additional analyses that would help ensure an even stronger level of support for these results and interpretations.

      Strengths:

      -  The authors use an interesting and clever task design across two fMRI experiments that is able to parse out contributions of WM maintenance alone along with categorical, rule-based decisions. Importantly, the second experiment only uses one fixed rule, providing both an internal replication of Experiment 1's effects and extending them to a different situation when rule-switching effects are not involved across mini-blocks.

      - The reported analyses using both inverted encoding models (IEM) and decoders (SVM) demonstrate the stimulus reconstruction effects across different methods, which may be sensitive to different aspects of the relationship between patterns of brain activity and the experimental stimuli.

      - Linking the multivariate activity patterns to memory behavior is critical in thinking about the potential differential roles of cortical areas in sub-serving successful working memory. Figure 3 nicely shows a similar interaction to that of Figure 2 in the role of sPCS in the categorization vs. maintenance tasks.

      - The cross-decoding analysis in Figure 4 is a clever and interesting way to parse out how stimulus and rule/category information may be intertwined, which would have been one of the foremost potential questions or analyses requested by careful readers. However, I think more additional text in the Methods and Results to lay out the exact logic of this abstract category metric will help readers bet0ter interpret the potential importance of this analysis and result.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive assessment of our manuscript. Please see lines 366-372, 885-894 in the revised manuscript for a detailed description of the abstract category index, and see below for a detailed point-by-point response.

      Weaknesses:

      - Selection and presentation of regions of interest: I appreciate the authors' care in separating the sPCS region as "frontal cortex", which is not necessarily part of the prefrontal cortex, on which many ideas of working memory maintenance activity are based. However, to help myself and readers interpret these findings, at a minimum the boundaries of each ROI should be provided as part of the main text or extended data figures. Relatedly, the authors use a probabilistic visual atlas to define ROIs in the visual, parietal, and frontal cortices. But other regions of both lateral frontal and parietal cortices show retinotopic responses (Mackey and Curtis, eLife, 2017: https://elifesciences.org/articles/22974) and are perhaps worth considering. Do the inferior PCS regions or inferior frontal sulcus show a similar pattern of effects across tasks? And what about the middle frontal gyrus areas of the prefrontal cortex, which are most analogous to the findings in NHP studies that the authors mention in their discussion, but do not show retinotopic responses? Reporting the effects (or lack thereof) in other areas of the frontal cortex will be critical for readers to interpret the role of the frontal cortex in guiding WM behavior and supporting the strongly worded conclusions of broad frontal cortex functioning in the paper. For example, to what extent can sPCS results be explained by visual retinotopic responses? (Mackey and Curtis, eLife, 2017: https://elifesciences.org/articles/22974).

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions. We have added a Supplemental Figure 1 to better illustrate the anatomical locations of ROIs.  

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we defined three additional subregions in the frontal cortex based on the HCP atlas [1], including the inferior precentral sulcus (iPCS, generated by merging 6v, 6r, and PEF), inferior frontal sulcus (IFS, generated by merging IFJp, IFJa, IFSp, IFSa, and p47r), and middle frontal gyrus (MFG, generated by merging 9-46d, 46, a9-46v, and p9-46v). We then performed the same analyses as in the main text using both mixed-model and within-condition IEMs. Overall, we found that none of the ROIs demonstrated significant orientation representation in Experiment 1, for either IEM analysis (Author response image 1A and 1C). In Experiment 2, however, the IFS and MFG (but not iPCS) demonstrated a similar pattern to sPCS for orientation representation, though these results did not persist in the within-condition IEM with lower SNR (Author response image 1B and 1D). Moreover, when we performed the abstract category decoding analysis in the three ROIs, only the MFG in Experiment 2 showed significant abstract category decoding results, with no significant difference between experiments (Author response image 1E). To summarize, the orientation and category results observed in sPCS in the original manuscript were largely absent in other frontal regions. There was some indication that the MFG might share some results for orientation representation and category decoding, although this pattern was weaker and was only observed in some analyses in Experiment 2. Therefore, although we did not perform retinotopic mapping and cannot obtain a direct measure of retinotopic responses in the frontal cortex, these results suggest that our findings are unlikely to be explained by visual retinotopic responses: the iPCS, which is another retinotopic region, did not show the observed pattern in any of the analyses. Notably, the iPCS results are consistent with our previous work demonstrating that orientation information cannot be decoded from iPCS during working memory delay [2]. We have included these results on lines 395-403, 563-572 in the revised manuscript to provide a more comprehensive understanding of the current findings. 

      Author response image 1.

      Orientation reconstruction and abstract category decoding results in iPCS, IFS, and MFG.

      - When looking at the time course of effects in Figure 2, for example, the sPCS maintenance vs categorization effects occur very late into the WM delay period. More information is needed to help separate this potential effect from that of the response period and potential premotor/motor-related influences. For example, are the timecourses shifted to account for hemodynamic lag, and if so, by how much? Do the sPCS effects blend into the response period? This is critical, too, for a task that does not use a jittered delay period, and potential response timing and planning can be conducted by participants near the end of the WM delay. For example, the authors say that " significant stimulus representation in EVC even when memoranda had been transformed into a motor format (24)". But, I *think* this paper shows the exact opposite interpretation - EVC stimulus information is only detectable when a motor response *cannot* be planned (https://elifesciences.org/articles/75688). Regardless, parsing out the timing and relationship to response planning is important, and an ROI for M1 or premotor cortex could also help as a control comparison point, as in reference (24).

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. We agree that examining the contribution of response-related activity in our study is crucial, as we detail below:

      First, the time course results in the manuscript are presented without time shifting. The difference in orientation representation in Figure 2 emerged at around 7 s after task cue onset and 1 s before probe onset. Considering a 4-6 s hemodynamic response lag, the difference should occur around 1-3 s after task cue onset and 5-7 s prior to probe onset. This suggests that a substantial portion of the effect likely occurred during the delay rather than response period.

      Second, our experimental design makes it unlikely that response planning would have influenced our results, as participants were unable to plan their motor responses in advance due to randomized response mapping at the probe stage on a trial-by-trial basis. Moreover, even if response planning had impacted the results in sPCS, it would have affected both conditions similarly, which again, would not explain the observed differences between conditions.

      Third, following the reviewer’s suggestion, we defined an additional ROI (the primary motor cortex, M1) using the HCP atlas and repeated the IEM analysis. No significant orientation representation was observed in either condition in M1, even during the response period (Figure S3), further suggesting that our results are unlikely to be explained by motor responses or motor planning.

      Based on the evidence above, we believe motor responses or planning are unlikely to account for our current findings. We have included these results on lines 264-267 to further clarify this issue.

      Lastly, upon re-reading the Henderson et al. paper [3], we confirmed that stimulus information was still decodable in EVC when a motor response could be planned (Figure 2 of Henderson et al.). In fact, the authors also discussed this result in paragraph 5 of their discussion. This finding, together with our results in EVC, indicates that EVC maintains stimulus information in working memory even when the information is no longer task-relevant, the functional relevance of which warrants further investigation in future research.

      - Interpreting effect sizes of IEM and decoding analysis in different ROIs. Here, the authors are interested in the interaction effects across maintenance and categorization tasks (bar plots in Figure 2), but the effect sizes in even the categorization task (y-axes) are always larger in EVC and IPS than in the sPCS region... To what extent do the authors think this representational fidelity result can or cannot be compared across regions? For example, a reader may wonder how much the sPCS representation matters for the task, perhaps, if memory access is always there in EVC and IPS? Or perhaps late sPCS representations are borrowing/accessing these earlier representations? Giving the reader some more intuition for the effect sizes of representational fidelity will be important. Even in Figure 3 for the behavior, all effects are also seen in IPS as well. More detail or context at minimum is needed about the representational fidelity metric, which is cited in ref (35) but not given in detail. These considerations are important given the claims of the frontal cortex serving such an important for flexible control, here.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. We agree that the effect sizes are always larger in EVC and IPS. This is because the specific decoding method we adopted, IEM, is based on the concept of population-level feature-selective responses, and decoding results would be most robust in regions with strong feature-tuning responses, such as EVC and parts of IPS. Therefore, to minimize the impact of effect size on our results, we avoided direct comparisons of representational strength across ROIs, focusing instead on differences in representational strength between conditions within the same ROI. With this approach, we found that EVC and IPS showed high representational fidelity throughout the trial, but only in sPCS did we observe significant higher fidelity in categorization condition, where orientation was actually not a behavioral goal but was manipulated in working memory to achieve the goal. Moreover, although representational fidelity in the EVC was the highest, its behavioral predictability decreased during the delay period, unlike sPCS. These results suggest that the magnitude of fidelity alone is not the determining factor for the observed categorization vs. maintenance effect or for behavioral performance. We have included further discussion on this issue on lines 208-211 of the revised manuscript.

      The reviewer also raised a good point that IPS showed similar behavioral correlation results as sPCS. In the original manuscript, we discussed the functional similarities and distinctions between IPS and sPCS in the discussion. We have expanded on this point on lines 610-627 in the revised manuscript:

      “While many previous WM studies have focused on the functional distinction between sensory and frontoparietal cortex, it has remained less clear how frontal and parietal cortex might differ in terms of WM functions. Some studies have reported stimulus representations with similar functionality in frontal and parietal cortex [4, 5], while others have observed differential patterns [6-8]. We interpret the differential patterns as reflecting a difference in the potential origin of the corresponding cognitive functions. For example, in our study, sPCS demonstrated the most prominent effect for enhanced stimulus representation during categorization as well as the tradeoff between stimulus difference and category representation, suggesting that sPCS might serve as the source region for such effects. On the other hand, IPS did show visually similar patterns to sPCS in some analyses. For instance, stimulus representation in IPS was visually but not statistically higher in the categorization task. Additionally, stimulus representation in IPS also predicted behavioral performance in the categorization task. These results together support the view that our findings in sPCS do not occur in isolation, but rather reflect a dynamic reconfiguration of functional gradients along the cortical hierarchy from early visual to parietal and then to frontal cortex.”

      Lastly, following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have included more details on the representational fidelity metric on lines 201-206, 856-863 in the revised manuscript for clarity.

      Recommendations:

      Figure 3 layout - this result is very interesting and compelling, but I think could be presented to have the effect demonstrated more simply for readers. The scatter plots in the second and third rows take up a lot of space, and perhaps having a barplot as in Figure 2 showing the effects of brain-behavior correlations collapsed across the WM delay period timing would make the effect stand out more.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have added a subplot (C) to Figure 3 to demonstrate the brain-behavior correlation collapsed across the late task epoch.

      When discussing the link between sPCS representations and behavior, I think this paper should likely be cited ([https://www.jneurosci.org/content/24/16/3944](https://www.jneurosci.org/content/24/ 16/3944)), which shows univariate relationships between sPCS delay activity and memory-guided saccade performance.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and have included this citation on lines 278-279 in the revised manuscript.

      Interpretation of "control" versus categorization - the authors interpret that "It would be of interest to further investigate whether this active control in the frontal cortex could be generalized to tasks that require other types of WM control such as mental rotation." I think more discussion on the relationship between categorization and "control" is needed, especially given the claim of "flexible control" throughout. Is stimulus categorization a form of cognitive control, and if so, how?  

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. Cognitive control is generally defined as the process by which behavior is flexibly adapted based on task context and goals, and most theories agree that this process occurs within working memory [9, 10]. With this definition, we consider stimulus categorization to be a form of cognitive control, because participants needed to adapt the stimulus based on the categorization rule in working memory for subsequent category judgements. With two categorization rules, the flexibility in cognitive control increased, because participants need to switch between the two rules multiple times throughout the experiment, instead of being fixed on one rule. We now clarify these two types of controls on lines 112-116 in the introduction.

      However, we agree that the latter form of control could be more related to rule switching that might not be specific to categorization per se. For instance, if participants perform rule switching in another type of WM task that requires WM control such as mental rotation, it remains to be tested whether similar results would be observed and/or whether same brain regions would be recruited. We have included further information on this issue on lines 572-575 in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors provide evidence that helps resolve long-standing questions about the differential involvement of the frontal and posterior cortex in working memory. They show that whereas the early visual cortex shows stronger decoding of memory content in a memorization task vs a more complex categorization task, the frontal cortex shows stronger decoding during categorization tasks than memorization tasks. They find that task-optimized RNNs trained to reproduce the memorized orientations show some similarities in neural decoding to people. Together, this paper presents interesting evidence for differential responsibilities of brain areas in working memory.

      Strengths:

      This paper was strong overall. It had a well-designed task, best-practice decoding methods, and careful control analyses. The neural network modelling adds additional insight into the potential computational roles of different regions.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive assessment of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      While the RNN model matches some of the properties of the task and decoding, its ability to reproduce the detailed findings of the paper was limited. Overall, the RRN model was not as well-motivated as the fMRI analyses.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s suggestions on improving our RNN results. Please see below for a detailed point-by-point response.

      Recommendations:

      Overall, I thought that this paper was excellent. I have some conceptual concerns about the RNN model, and minor recommendations for visualization.

      (1) I think that the RNN modelling was certainly interesting and well-executed. However, it was not clear how much it contributed to the results. On the one hand, it wasn't clear why reproducing the stimulus was a critical objective of the task (ie could be more strongly motivated on biological grounds). On the other hand, the agreement between the model and the fMRI results is not that strong. The model does not reproduce stronger decoding in 'EVC' for maintenance vs categorization. Also, the pattern of abstract decoding is very different from the fMRI (eg the RNN has stronger categorical encoding in 'EVC' than 'PFC' and larger differences between fixed and flexible rules in earlier areas than is evident in the fMRI). Together, the RNN modelling comes across as a little ad hoc, without really nailing the performance.

      We thank the reviewer for prompting us to further elaborate on the rationale for our RNN analysis. In our fMRI results, we observed a tradeoff between maintaining stimulus information in more flexible tasks (Experiment 1) and maintaining abstract category information in less flexible tasks (Experiment 2). This led to the hypothesis that participants might have employed different coding strategies in the two experiments. Specifically, in flexible environments, stimulus information might be preserved in its original identity in the higher-order cortex, potentially reducing processing demands in each task and thereby facilitating efficiency and flexibility; whereas in less flexible tasks, participants might generate more abstract category representations based on task rules to facilitate learning. To directly test this idea, we examined whether explicitly placing a demand for the RNN to preserve stimulus representation would recapitulate our fMRI findings in frontal cortex by having stimulus information as an output, in comparison to a model that did not specify such a demand. Meanwhile, we totally agree with the reviewer that there are alternative ways to implement this objective in the model. For instance, changing the network encoding weights (lazy vs. rich regime) to make feedforward neural networks either produce high-dimensional stimulus or low-dimensional category representations [11]. However, we feel that exploring these alternatives may fall outside the scope of the current study.

      Regarding the alignment between the fMRI and RNN results: for the stimulus decoding results in EVC, we found that with an alternative decoding method (IEM), a similar maintenance > categorization pattern was observed in EVC-equivalent module, suggesting that our RNN was capable of reproducing EVC results, albeit in a weaker manner (please see our response to the reviewer’s next point). For the category decoding results, we would like to clarify that the category decoding results in EVC was not necessarily better than those in sPCS. Although category decoding accuracy was numerically higher in EVC, it was more variable compared to IPS and sPCS. To illustrate this point, we calculated the Bayes factor for the category decoding results of RNN2 in Figure 6C, and found that the amount of evidence for category decoding as well as for the decoding difference between RNNs in IPS and sPCS modules was high, whereas the evidence in the EVC was insufficient (Response Table 1).

      Author response table 1.

      Bayes factors for category decoding and decoding differences in Figure 6C lower panel.

      Nevertheless, we agree with the reviewer that all three modules demonstrated the category decoding difference between experiments, which differs from our fMRI results. This discrepancy may be partially due to differences in signal sensitivity. RNN signals typically have a higher SNR compared to fMRI signals, as fMRI aggregates signals from multiple neurons and single-neuron tuning effects can be reduced. We have acknowledged this point on lines 633-636 in the revised manuscript. Nonetheless, the current RNNs effectively captured our key fMRI findings, including increased stimulus representation in frontal cortex as well as the tradeoff in category representation with varying levels of flexible control. We believe the RNN results remain valuable in this regard.

      Honestly, I think the paper would have a very similar impact without the modelling results, but I appreciate that you put a lot of work into the modeling, and this is an interesting direction for future research. I have a few suggestions, but nothing that I feel too strongly about.

      - It might be informative to use IEM to better understand the RNN representations (and how similar they are to fMRI). For example, this could show whether any of the modules just encode categorical information. 

      - You could try providing the task and/or retro cue directly to the PFC units. This is a little unrealistic, but may encourage a stronger role for PFC.

      - You might adjust the ratio of feedforward/feedback connections, if you can find good anatomical guidance on what these should be.

      Obviously, I don't have much - it's a tricky problem!

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions. To better align the fMRI and RNN results, we first performed the same IEM analyses used in the fMRI analyses on the RNN data. We found that with IEM, the orientation representation in the EVC module demonstrated a pattern similar to that in the fMRI data, showing a negative trend for the difference between categorization and maintenance, although the trend did not reach statistical significance (Author response image 2A). Meanwhile, the difference between categorization and maintenance remained a positive trend in the sPCS module.

      Second, following the reviewer’s suggestion, we adjusted the ratio of feedforward/feedback connections between modules to 1:2, such that between Modules 1 and 2 and between Modules 2 and 3, there were always more feedback than feedforward connections, consistent with recent theoretical proposals [12]. We found that, this change preserved the positive trend for orientation differences in the sPCS module, but in the meantime also made the orientation difference in the EVC and IPS modules more positive (Author response image 2B).

      To summarize, we found that the positive difference between categorization and maintenance in the sPCS module was robust across difference RNNs and analytical approaches, further supporting that RNNs with stimulus outputs can replicate our key fMRI findings in the frontal cortex. By contrast, the negative difference between categorization and maintenance in EVC was much weaker. It was weakly present using some analytical methods (i.e., the IEM) but not others (i.e., SVMs), and increasing the feedback ratio of the entire network further weakened this difference. We believe that this could be due to that the positive difference was mainly caused by top-down, feedback modulations from higher cortex during categorization, such that increasing the feedback connection strengthens this pattern across modules. We speculate that enhancing the negative difference in the EVC module might require additional modules or inputs to strengthen fine-grained stimulus representation in EVC, a mechanism that might be of interest to future research. We have added a paragraph to the discussion on the limitations of the RNN results on lines 629-644.

      Author response image 2.

      Stimulus difference across RNN modules.  (A). Results using IEM (p-values from Module 1 to 3: 0.10, 0.48, 0.01). (B). Results using modified RNN2 with changed connection ratio (p-values from Module 1 to 3: 0.12, 0.22, 0.08). All p-values remain uncorrected.

      (2) Can you rule out that during the categorization task, the orientation encoding in PFC isn't just category coding? You had good controls for category coding, but it would be nice to see something for orientation coding. e.g., fit your orientation encoding model after residualizing category encoding, or show that category encoding has worse CV prediction than orientation encoding.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. To decouple orientation and category representations, we performed representational similarity analysis (RSA) in combination with linear mixed-effects modeling (LMEM) on the fMRI data. Specifically, we constructed three hypothesized representational dissimilarity matrices (RDMs), one for graded stimulus (increasing distance between orientations as they move farther apart, corresponding to graded feature tuning responses), one for abstract category (0 for all orientations within the same category and 1 for different categories), and another for discrete stimulus (indicating equidistant orientation representations). We then fit the three model RDMs together using LMEM with subject as the random effect (Author response image 3A). This approach is intended to minimize the influence of collinearity between RDMs on the results [13].

      Overall, the LMEM results (Author response image 3B-D) replicated the decoding results in the main text, with significant stimulus but not category representation in sPCS in Experiment 1, and marginally significant category representation in the same brain region in Experiment 2. These results further support the validity of our main findings and emphasize the contribution of stimulus representation independent of category representation.

      Author response image 3.

      Delineating stimulus and category effects using LMEM.  (A) Schematic illustration of this method. (B) Results for late epoch in Experiment 1, showing the fit of each model RDM. (C) Results for early epoch in Experiment 2. (D) Results for late epoch in Experiment 2.

      (3) Is it possible that this region of PFC is involved in categorization in particular and not 'control-demanding working memory'? 

      We thank the reviewer for raising this possibility. Cognitive control is generally defined as the process by which behavior is flexibly adapted based on task context and goals, and most theories agree that this process occurs within working memory [9, 10]. With this definition, we consider stimulus categorization to be a form of cognitive control, because participants need to adapt the stimulus based on the categorization rule in working memory for subsequent category judgements.  However, in the current study we only used one type of control-demanding working memory task (categorization) to test our hypothesis, and therefore it remains unclear whether the current results in sPCS can generalize to other types of WM control tasks.

      We have included a discussion on this issue on lines 572-575 in the revised manuscript.

      (4) Some of the figures could be refined to make them more clear:

      a.  Figure 4 b/c should have informative titles and y-axis labels.

      b.  Figure 5, the flexible vs fixed rule isn't used a ton up to this point - it would help to (also include? Replace?) with something like exp1/exp2 in the legend. It would also help to show the true & orthogonal rule encoding in these different regions (in C, or in a separate panel), especially to the extent that this is a proxy for stimulus encoding.

      c.  Figure 6: B and C are very hard to parse right now. (i) The y-axis on B could use a better label. (ii) It would be useful to include an inset of the relevant data panel from fMRI that you are reproducing. (iii) Why aren't there fixed rules for RNN1?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions and have updated the figures accordingly as following:

      Overall I think this is excellent - my feedback is mostly on interpretation and presentation. I think the work itself is really well done, congrats!

      References

      (1) Glasser, M.F., et al., A multi-modal parcellation of human cerebral cortex. Nature, 2016. 536(7615): p. 171-178.

      (2) Yu, Q. and Shim, W.M., Occipital, parietal, and frontal cortices selectively maintain taskrelevant features of multi-feature objects in visual working memory. Neuroimage, 2017. 157: p. 97-107.

      (3) Henderson, M.M., Rademaker, R.L., and Serences, J.T., Flexible utilization of spatial- and motor-based codes for the storage of visuo-spatial information. Elife, 2022. 11.

      (4) Christophel, T.B., et al., Cortical specialization for attended versus unattended working memory. Nat Neurosci, 2018. 21(4): p. 494-496.

      (5) Yu, Q. and Shim, W.M., Temporal-Order-Based Attentional Priority Modulates Mnemonic Representations in Parietal and Frontal Cortices. Cereb Cortex, 2019. 29(7): p. 3182-3192.

      (6) Li, S., et al., Neural Representations in Visual and Parietal Cortex Differentiate between Imagined, Perceived, and Illusory Experiences. J Neurosci, 2023. 43(38): p. 6508-6524.

      (7) Hu, Y. and Yu, Q., Spatiotemporal dynamics of self-generated imagery reveal a reverse cortical hierarchy from cue-induced imagery. Cell Rep, 2023. 42(10): p. 113242.

      (8) Lee, S.H., Kravitz, D.J., and Baker, C.I., Goal-dependent dissociation of visual and prefrontal cortices during working memory. Nat Neurosci, 2013. 16(8): p. 997-9.

      (9) Miller, E.K. and Cohen, J.D., An integrative theory of prefrontal cortex function. Annu Rev Neurosci, 2001. 24: p. 167-202.

      (10) Badre, D., et al., The dimensionality of neural representations for control. Curr Opin Behav Sci, 2021. 38: p. 20-28.

      (11) Flesch, T., et al., Orthogonal representations for robust context-dependent task performance in brains and neural networks. Neuron, 2022. 110(7): p. 1258-1270 e11.

      (12) Wang, X.J., Theory of the Multiregional Neocortex: Large-Scale Neural Dynamics and Distributed Cognition. Annu Rev Neurosci, 2022. 45: p. 533-560.

      (13) Bellmund, J.L.S., et al., Mnemonic construction and representation of temporal structure in the hippocampal formation. Nat Commun, 2022. 13(1): p. 3395.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This valuable study reports comprehensive multi-omic data on the changes induced in young and aged male mouse tail fibroblasts after treatment with chemical reprogramming factors. The authors claim that chemical reprogramming factors induce changes consistent with a reduction of cellular 'biological' age (e.g., correlations with established aging markers in whole tissues). However, the study relies on previously identified aging markers (instead of aging in the tail fibroblast system itself), and thus, at this stage, the evidence in support of the observed molecular changes truly reflecting changes in biological age in the study system is still incomplete.

      Essential revisions

      After discussion with reviewers, we believe that the conclusions of the manuscript would be significantly strengthened with the following revisions:

      (1) Rather than basing the analysis of age-related markers on public tissue data, it is recommended that authors use their own data on pre-reprogramming fibroblasts to define molecular aging-related markers/signatures specifically for male tail fibroblasts at 4 vs 20 months. This should also always be included in figures as reference points.

      We appreciate these helpful comments. Please refer to our responses to Reviewers #1 and #2 concerning these suggestions and the corresponding changes we have made in the revised manuscript.

      (2) In general, the methods as written lack the details necessary to fully understand the study/reproduce it independently, notably in terms of data analysis choices (e.g. use of FWER/FDR type correction for multiple testing, use of raw vs normalized RNA counts for PCA, etc).

      Thank you for this feedback. We have modified our text to address this issue. Please refer to our responses to Reviewer #1 for the specific changes we have made.

      (3) More generally, the authors should better outline the limitations/caveats of their experimental design in the discussion and/or abstract, including the specific cell type and the choice of using only male data (since aging itself is very sex-dimorphic, and the impact of partial reprogramming on aging phenotypes may also be sex-dimorphic).

      Thank you for this important feedback. We have now added a section to our Discussion in which we directly address potential limitations of our study concerning sex-specific differences and the cell type used.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      The investigators employed multi-omics approach to show the functional impact of partial chemical reprogramming in fibroblasts from young and aged mice.

      Strengths:

      Multi-omics data was collected, including epigenome, transcriptome, proteome, phosphoproteome, and metabolome. Different analyses were conducted accordingly, including differential expression analysis, gene set enrichment analysis, transcriptomic and epigenetic clock-based analyses. The impact of partial chemical reprogramming on aging was supported by these multi-source results.

      We appreciate the reviewer noting the strength and comprehensiveness of our approach.

      Weaknesses:

      More experimental data may be needed to further validate current findings.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. To further validate our findings, we have proceeded as follows: (1) First, we have investigated the role of Prkaca activation during partial chemical reprogramming with 7c (see updated Fig. 5C, Fig. 5 – figure supplement 1B). By confocal microscopy, we show that partial chemical reprogramming with 7c does not cause Prkaca to localize to mitochondria; rather, its cellular distribution is altered to favor nuclear localization. We also use RNAi to knockdown Prkaca and find that Prkaca is not necessary for mediating the increase in mitochondrial membrane potential upon partial chemical reprogramming with 7c.

      (2) We have determined the effect of partial chemical reprogramming with 7c on apoptosis using Annexin V assay (see updated Fig. 5 – figure supplement 1C). We show that during the course of partial chemical reprogramming, the proportion of apoptotic cells steadily increases to about 20 percent.

      (3) We have re-analyzed our multi-omics data to determine the molecular differences (e.g. at the epigenome, transcriptome, proteome, and metabolome levels) between fibroblasts isolated from young and old mice (see updated Fig. 2 – figure supplement 1, Fig. 6 – figure supplement 1, and Fig. 7 – figure supplement 2). Additionally, we have updated Fig. 7A to include statistical comparisons of transcriptomic age of 4-month-old and 20-month-old fibroblasts. Finally, we have updated Fig. 3D to include functional enrichment of gene and protein expression levels of aged fibroblasts.

      (4) We have more thoroughly characterized the effects of partial chemical reprogramming on the epigenome (see Fig. 7 – figure supplement 3).

      (5) Julie Y. Chen was added on as an additional co-author for producing the analyses shown in Fig. 7 – figure supplement 2, and Fig. 7 – figure supplement 3.

      Reviewer #2:

      The short-term administration of reprogramming factors to partially reprogram cells has gained traction in recent years as a potential strategy to reverse aging in cells and organisms. Early studies used Yamanaka factors in transgenic mice to reverse aging phenotypes, but chemical cocktails could present a more feasible approach for in vivo delivery. In this study, Mitchell et al sought to determine the effects that short-term administration of chemical reprogramming cocktails have on biological age and function. To address this question, they treated young and old mouse fibroblasts with chemical reprogramming cocktails and performed transcriptome, proteome, metabolome, and DNA methylation profiling pre- and post-treatment. For each of these datasets, they identified changes associated with treatment, showing downregulation of some previously identified molecular signatures of aging in both young and old cells. From these data, the authors conclude that partial chemical reprogramming can rejuvenate both young and old fibroblasts.

      The main strength of this study is the comprehensive profiling of cells pre- and post-treatment with the reprogramming cocktails, which will be a valuable resource for better understanding the molecular changes induced by chemical reprogramming. The authors highlighted consistent changes across the different datasets that are thought to be associated with aging phenotypes, showing reduction of age-associated signatures previously identified in various tissues. However, from the findings, it remains unclear which changes are functionally relevant in the specific fibroblast system being used. Specifically:

      (1) The 4 month and 20 month mouse fibroblasts are designated "young" vs "old" in this study. An important analysis that was not shown for each of the profiled modalities was a comparison of untreated young vs old fibroblasts to determine age-associated molecular changes in this specific model of aging. Then, rather than using aging signatures defined in other tissues, it would be more appropriate to determine whether the chemical cocktails reverted old fibroblasts to a younger state based on the age-associated changes identified in this comparison.

      In our study, we have used 4 biological samples per group for young and old untreated fibroblasts, and these samples have been used to calculate the effect of 7c and 2c cocktails on gene expression in each age group. Therefore, the correlation between logFC induced by 7c/2c treatment and logFC between young and old fibroblasts would be biased, since the same untreated samples would be used in both calculations: estimates B-A and C-B will be, on average, negatively correlated even if A, B and C are independent random variables. For this reason, to investigate the effect of cocktails on biological age, we utilized gene expression signatures of aging, estimated based on more than 2,600 samples of different ages from 25 data sources (PMID: 37269831). Notably, our multi-tissue signatures of aging were identified based on data from 17 tissues, including skin. Therefore, these biomarkers seem to represent more reliable and universal molecular mechanisms of aging. Since they have been identified using independent data, the signatures also don’t introduce the statistical bias described above. For these reasons, we think that they are more applicable for the current analysis. To demonstrate that the utilized aging signatures are overall consistent with the changes observed in studied fibroblasts, we performed GSEA-based analysis, testing association between logFC in aged fibroblasts and various signatures of aging and reprogramming (similar to our analysis in Fig. 2E). We found that the changes in aged fibroblasts from the current study demonstrated positive association with the majority of aging signatures (kidney, liver and multi-tissue signatures in mouse and rat) (Fig. 2 – figure supplement 1A) and were negatively associated with signatures of reprogramming. In addition, we characterized functional changes perturbed in untreated aged fibroblasts at the level of gene expression and protein concentrations and observed multiple changes consistent with the aging signatures, such as upregulation of genes and proteins involved in inflammatory response and interferon signaling (Fig. 3D, Fig. 2 – figure supplement 1C). Therefore, changes observed in untreated aged fibroblasts seem to agree with age-related molecular changes identified across mammalian tissues in our previous studies.

      We would also like to mention that the epigenetic clocks used in this study consistently show that the fibroblasts from 20-month-old fibroblasts are significantly older than the fibroblasts from 4-month-old mice (Fig. 7B). Moreover, we have revised the manuscript to show that these epigenetic differences between young and old untreated fibroblasts are not due to overall changes in mean DNA methylation (Fig. 7 – figure supplement 2). In contrast, in the revised manuscript, we observe that 7c treatment is reducing the epigenetic age of cells by decreasing mean DNA methylation levels (Fig. 7 – figure supplement 3).

      (2) Across all datasets, it appears that the global profiles of young vs old mouse fibroblasts are fairly similar compared to treated fibroblasts, suggesting that the chemical cocktails are not reverting the fibroblasts to a younger state but instead driving them to a different cell state. Similarly, in most cases where specific age-related processes/genes are being compared across untreated and treated samples, no significant differences are observed between young and old fibroblasts.

      We agree that our data shows that partial chemical reprogramming seems to induce a similar effect on young and old fibroblasts. In Fig. 2 – figure supplement 1B, the Spearman correlation coefficients for the effects on gene expression in young and old fibroblasts are 0.80 and 0.85 for 2c and 7c, respectively. It is important to note that the effect of partial chemical reprogramming is a magnitude higher (say in terms of number of differentially expressed genes) than the effect of aging in the untreated fibroblasts. Partial chemical reprogramming with 7c, we believe, is pushing the cells to a younger state as a byproduct of producing a different cellular metabolic state with a strong increase in OXPHOS capacity.

      (3) Functional validation experiments to confirm that specific changes observed after partial reprogramming are indeed reducing biological age is limited.

      Functional validation of rejuvenating interventions is limited in vitro, as cells do not completely maintain their “aged” phenotype once isolated and cultured, and pursuing partial chemical reprogramming in vivo in naturally-aged mice was beyond the scope of the study. One of the best reporters of biological age that are preserved in primary cells in vitro are epigenetic and transcriptomic clocks, which were both utilized in this manuscript to show that 7c treatment, but not 2c, reduces biological age. We show that splicing-related damage is marginally elevated in old fibroblasts compared to young, and that 7c reduces splicing damage by reducing intron retention. Moreover, the epigenetic clocks used in this study show that the 20-month-old fibroblasts are significantly older than the 4-month-old fibroblasts, indicating that the “aged” phenotype is at least partially preserved. Furthermore, according to previous studies (PMIDs: 37269831, 31353263), one of the strongest functional biomarkers of aging is downregulation of mitochondrial function and energy metabolism, including oxidative phosphorylation, while upregulation of these functions is usually associated with extended lifespan in mice. For this reason, we have focused on these pathways in our study and assessed them with functional assays.

      (4) Partial reprogramming appears to substantially reduce biological age of the young (4 month) fibroblasts based on the aging signatures used. It is unclear how this result should be interpreted.

      This is a caveat of all reprogramming strategies/”anti-aging” interventions developed and tested to date. Currently, there are no genetic or pharmacological methods that target only the “aged” state and not the “young” state as well (i.e. an intervention that would only cause a change in old cells and revert them to a younger state). However, “young” cells in our study and many other studies are still the cells of an intermediate age, as aging appears to begin early during development. Therefore, perhaps unsurprisingly, partial chemical reprogramming seemed to have similar effects on fibroblasts isolated from young and old mice, which is in line with OSK/OSKM reprogramming. These results should be interpreted as follows: partial chemical reprogramming does not depend on the epigenetic state (biological age) of adult cells to induce rejuvenation. We have updated the discussion section of our manuscript accordingly.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) How was the PCA conducted for RNA-seq data? Were the raw or normalized counts used for PCA?

      Normalized counts were used for PCA of the RNA-seq data.

      (2) Supplementary Fig 3c, why was the correlation between the red rows and red columns low? Was the color of group messed up? Why was the Pearson correlation used instead of Spearman correlation? Most of the correlation analyses in the manuscript used Spearman correlation.

      We thank the reviewer for noticing this mistake. The colors of the groups have now been corrected. Furthermore, to be consistent with the rest of the manuscript, we have performed a Spearman correlation analysis on the normalized proteomics data to evaluate sample-to-sample similarities and updated Fig. 3 – figure supplement 1 accordingly. Overall, the results are similar to those obtained by Pearson correlation.

      (3) Were the significant metabolites tested by one-way ANOVA adjusted for family-wise type I error rate? It is surprising that over 50% metabolites were significant.

      Yes, the significant metabolites were adjusted for family-wise type I error rate (with a 5% significance threshold) in Fig. 6B.

      (4) Missing full names of several abbreviations, such as NIA, RLE, PSI, etc.

      Thank you for noticing the missing abbreviations. We have corrected this by writing out the full term in the first instance in which each abbreviation appears.

      (5) Methods section may be too long. Some paragraphs could be moved to supplementary text.

      eLife does not have a limit to the number of figures or amount of text. Therefore, we have kept the methods section largely unaltered as we feel that they would be helpful to the scientific community.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) As discussed in the public review, I would recommend first establishing what differences exist between 4 month and 20 month fibroblasts to identify potential age-related changes in these fibroblasts.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now thoroughly characterized the molecular differences between fibroblasts taken from young and old mice at the epigenome, transcriptome, proteome, and metabolome levels. Please refer to previous responses for more specific details.

      We have also attempted to establish aging-related differences at the phosphoproteome level, particularly in regards to mitochondrial processes (see figure below), but only GOcc: mitochondrion and GObp: mitochondrial transport come close to being statistically significant (raw p-values of 0.05 and 0.08, respectively) in the control comparison.

      Author response image 1.

      (2) While the global changes currently highlighted in the study are informative and should remain in the revised manuscript, additional analyses to show which age-related changes identified in point 1 are reverted upon 2c or 7c treatment would better address the question of whether these cocktails revert age-related changes seen in fibroblasts. These analyses should be performed for each dataset (i.e transcriptomic, proteomic, epigenomic, metabolomic) generated.

      Thank you for this comment. We have now evaluated the effects of partial chemical reprogramming on the specific molecular differences between fibroblasts isolated from young and old mice (see updated Fig. 2 – figure supplement 1, Fig. 6 – figure supplement 1, Fig. 7 – figure supplement 2, and Fig. 7 – figure supplement 3). For functional enrichment of aged fibroblasts at the gene and protein level, please refer to updated Fig. 3D.

      (3) Comparisons between partial reprogramming and OSKM reprogramming signatures are repeatedly made in the paper, but it is not clear from the text whether similarity to OSKM reprogramming signatures is a desired or undesired feature. Since there are likely both rejuvenating and oncogenic aspects of the OSKM signatures, it is unclear what conclusions can be made from these comparisons.

      Two central questions of this study were (1) if partial chemical reprogramming could induce cellular rejuvenation, and (2) if so, would it do so by merely chemically activating expression of Yamanaka factors. In this study, we find that 7c, the cocktail that demonstrated the most profound effect on biological age, only minorly upregulates Klf4, downregulates c-Myc, and has no effect on Sox2 or Oct4 expression. Thus, partial chemical reprogramming seems to operate through a mechanism independent of upregulating OSK/OSKM gene expression. This is crucial as it suggests that there are other transcription factors outside of OSKM that can be targeted to induce cellular rejuvenation and reversal of biological age. However, the direct transcriptional targets of partial chemical reprogramming are currently unknown and require further investigation.

      Partial reprogramming with OSK/OSKM has several limitations, including low efficiency, oncogenic risk, and differences in the speed of reprogramming according to cell/tissue type. These risks could be inherently tied to the transcription factors OSKM themselves; thus, partial chemical reprogramming, by avoiding strong activation of these genes, could potentially avoid these risks and provide a safer means for reversing biological age in vivo. However, extensive follow-up studies beyond the scope of this manuscript are certainly required to determine this.

      We have addressed this comment by modifying the discussion to include these points.

      (4) When analyzing the phospho-proteomics data, results are discussed as general changes in phosphorylation of proteins involved in different cellular processes. However, phosphorylation can either activate or inhibit a specific protein, and can depend on the specific residue in a protein that is modified. Different proteins in a cellular process can also respond in opposite directions to phosphorylation. Treating activating and inactivating phosphorylation events separately in describing these results would be more informative.

      We agree that an analysis that considers for each specific phosphosite whether it activates or inactivates a particular pathway would in principle be preferable over our current enrichment analysis that only accounts for the increase or decrease in phosphorylation of each site without knowing its biological meaning. However, unfortunately, we think it is currently practically not possible to conduct such an analysis. The proposed analysis would require a database with information on which residues are (de-)phosphorylated when a certain pathway is activated. However, as far as we know, there are currently no databases that link activation or inactivation of specific phosphosites to pathways in repositories like KEGG, HALLMARK, GObp, GOcc, GOmf, Reactome, etc.

      Some databases link phosphosites to drugs, diseases and kinases (e.g. PTMsigDB (PMID: 30563849)). However, these authors explicitly state: “We note that we do not capture functional annotations of PTM sites in PTMsigDB, such as activating or inactivating effect on the modified protein.” Furthermore, even in these databases, for the vast majority of the registered phosphosites, the responsible kinases are unknown, especially in mice. In our work, we made use of PhosphoSitePlus for kinase substrate enrichment analysis (see Fig. 5B). Such analyses, where kinase activity is inferred based on activated phosphosites are indeed commonly performed (see PMIDs: 34663829, 37269289, 37585503).

      In the absence of a repository that assigns activity to phosphosites, if enrichment analysis is being done for biological pathways, it is standard practice to so without accounting for whether phosphosites are activating or inactivating (see PMID: 34663829), as we have done in our manuscript (Fig. 5A).

      Despite the drawbacks, we believe our analysis is relevant, as it demonstrates important biological activity in these pathways uopn 2c/7c treatments as compared to controls. For example, the observed increase in abundance in mitochondrial OXPHOS complexes (Fig. 3E) combined with an increase in general phosphorylation of mitochondrial proteins (Fig. 5A) likely points to an increase mitochondrial activity, although one cannot exclude that some individual phosphorylation events might have inhibitory effects on certain mitochondrial proteins, while others might indicate increases in activity.

      (5) For the transcriptomic and epigenetic aging clocks used in Fig 7, significance tests need to be included for untreated 4 month vs 20 month fibroblasts. Particularly for the transcriptional clock, the differences are small and suggest that it may not be a strong aging signature.

      We have updated our clock analysis with the most recent versions of the clocks and added statistical significance between 4-month-old and 20-month-old untreated fibroblasts there (Fig. 7A). The difference is statistically significant for the chronological clock. However, when the lifespan-adjusted clock was applied, no statistical significance was observed, suggesting that 20-month-old fibroblasts do not exhibit substantial changes in gene expression associated with decreased healthspan and increased mortality.

      (6) For heatmaps shown in Figure 3D and Figure 4, please include untreated 4 month and 20 month fibroblasts as well to determine if pathways being compared are different between young and old fibroblasts.

      We have updated Figure 3D with functional enrichment results for aged fibroblasts at gene and protein expression levels, as requested. As for Fig. 4, we explained in our reply to point 1 of Reviewer #2 in the public review why addition of aged fibroblasts there would be biased there. Instead, we have performed GSEA-based association analysis for changes observed in aged fibroblasts and signatures of aging (Fig. 2 – figure supplement 1), confirming that our signatures are overall consistent with patterns of 20-month-old fibroblasts from the current study.

    1. Author response

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      We thank the editor for the eLife assessment and reviewers for their remaining comments. We will address them in this response.

      First, we thank eLife for the positive assessment. Regarding the point of visual acuity that is mentioned in this assessment, we understand that this comment is made. It is not an uncommon comment when rodent vision is discussed. However, we emphasize that we took the lower visual acuity of rats and the higher visual acuity of humans into account when designing the human study, by using a fast and eccentric stimulus presentation for humans. As a result, we do not expect a higher discriminability of stimuli in humans. We have described this in detail in our Methods section when describing the procedure in the human experiment:

      “We used this fast and eccentric stimulus presentation with a mask to resemble the stimulus perception more closely to that of rats. Vermaercke & Op de Beeck (2012) have found that human visual acuity in these fast and eccentric presentations is not significantly better than the reported visual acuity of rats. By using this approach we avoid that differences in strategies between humans and rats would be explained by such a difference in acuity”

      Second, regarding the remaining comment of Reviewer #2 about our use of AlexNet:

      While it is indeed relevant to further look into different computational architectures, we chose to not do this within the current study. First, it is a central characteristic of the study procedure that the computational approach and chosen network is chosen early on as it is used to generate the experimental design that animals are tested with. We cannot decide after data collection to use a different network to select the stimuli with which these data were collected. Second, as mentioned in our first response, using AlexNet is not a random choice. It has been used in many previously published vision studies that were relatively positive about the correspondence with biological vision (Cadieu et al., 2014; Groen et al., 2018; Kalfas et al., 2018; Nayebi et al., 2023; Zeman et al., 2020). Third, our aim was not to find a best DNN model for rat vision, but instead examining the visual features that play a role in our complex discrimination task with a model that was hopefully a good enough starting point. The fact that the designs based upon AlexNet resulted in differential and interpretable effects in rats as well as in humans suggests that this computational model was a good start. Comparing the outcomes of different networks would be an interesting next step, and we expect that our approach could work even better when using a network that is more specifically tailored to mimic rat visual processing.

      Finally, regarding the choice to specifically chose alignment and concavity as baseline properties, this choice is probably not crucial for the current study. We have no reason to expect rats to have an explicit notion about how a shape is built up in terms of a part-based structure, where alignment relates to the relative position of the parts and concavity is a property of the main base. For human vision it might be different, but we did not focus on such questions in this study.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We would like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to submit a revised draft our manuscript. We appreciate the time and effort that you dedicated to providing insightful feedback on our manuscript and are grateful for the valuable comments and improvements on our paper. It helped us to improve our manuscript. We have carefully considered the comments and tried our best to address every one of them. We have added clarifications in the Discussion concerning the type of neural network that we used, about which visual features might play a role in our results as well as clarified the experimental setup and protocol in the Methods section as these two sections were lacking key information points.

      Below we provide a response to the public comments and concerns of the reviewers.

      Several key points were addressed by at least two reviewers, and we will respond to them first.

      A first point concerns the type of network we used. In our study, we used AlexNet to simulate the ventral visual stream and to further examine rat and human performance. While other, more complex neural networks might lead to other results, we chose to work with AlexNet because it has been used in many other vision studies that are published in high impact journals ((Cadieu et al., 2014; Groen et al., 2018; Kalfas et al., 2018; Nayebi et al., 2023; Zeman et al., 2020). We did not try to find a best DNN model for rat vision but instead, we were looking for an explanation of which visual features play a role in our complex discrimination task. We added a consideration to our Discussion addressing why we worked with AlexNet. Since our data will be published on OSF, we encourage to researchers to use our data with other, more complex neural networks and to further investigate this issue.

      A second point that was addressed by multiple reviewers concerns the visual acuity of the animals and its impact on their performance. The position of the rat was not monitored in the setup. In a previous study in our lab (Crijns & Op de Beeck, 2019), we investigated the visual acuity of rats in the touchscreen setups by presenting gratings with different cycles per screen to see how it affects their performance in orientation discrimination. With the results from this study and general knowledge about rat visual acuity, we derived that the decision distance of rats lies around 12.5cm from the screen. We have added this paragraph to the Discussion.

      A third key point that needs to be addressed as a general point involves which visual features could explain rat and human performance. We reported marked differences between rat and human data in how performance varied across image trials, and we concluded through our computationally informed tests and analyses that rat performance was explained better by lower levels of processing. Yet, we did not investigate which exact features might underlie rat performance. As a starter, we have focused on taking a closer look at pixel similarity and brightness and calculating the correlation between rat/human performance and these two visual features.

      We calculated the correlation between the rat performances and image brightness of the transformations. We did this by calculating the difference in brightness of the base pair (brightness base target – brightness base distractor), and subtracting the difference in brightness of every test target-distractor pair for each test protocol (brightness test target – brightness test distractor for each test pair). We then correlated these 287 brightness values (1 for each test image pair) with the average rat performance for each test image pair. This resulted in a correlation of 0.39, suggesting that there is an influence of brightness in the test protocols. If we perform the same correlation with the human performances, we get a correlation of -0.12, suggesting a negative influence of brightness in the human study.

      We calculated the correlation between pixel similarity of the test stimuli in relation to the base stimuli with the average performance of the animals on all nine test protocols. We did this by calculating the pixel similarity between the base target with every other testing distractor (A), the pixel similarity between the base target with every other testing target (B), the pixel similarity between the base distractor with every other testing distractor (C) and the pixel similarity between the base distractor with every other testing target (D). For each test image pair, we then calculated the average of (A) and (D), and subtracted the average of (C) and (B) from it. We correlated these 287 values (one for each image pair) with the average rat performance on all test image pairs, which resulted in a correlation of 0.34, suggesting an influence of pixel similarity in rat behaviour. Performing the same correlation analysis with the human performances results in a correlation of 0.12.

      We have also addressed this in the Discussion of the revised manuscript. Note that the reliability of the rat data was 0.58, clearly higher than the correlations with brightness and pixel similarity, thus these features capture only part of the strategies used by rats.

      We have also responded to all other insightful suggestions and comments of the reviewers, and a point-by-point response to the more major comments will follow now.  

      Reviewer #1, general comments:

      The authors should also discuss the potential reason for the human-rat differences too, and importantly discuss whether these differences are coming from the rather unusual approach of training used in rats (i.e. to identify one item among a single pair of images), or perhaps due to the visual differences in the stimuli used (what were the image sizes used in rats and humans?). Can they address whether rats trained on more generic visual tasks (e.g. same-different, or category matching tasks) would show similar performance as humans?

      The task that we used is typically referred to as a two-alternative forced choice (2AFC). This is a simple task to learn. A same-different task is cognitively much more demanding, also for artificial neural networks (see e.g. Puebla & Bowers, 2022, J. Vision). A one-stimulus choice task (probably what the reviewer refers to with category matching) is known to be more difficult compared to 2AFC, with a sensitivity that is predicted to be Sqrt(2) lower according to signal detection theory (MacMillan & Creelman, 1991). We confirmed this prediction empirically in our lab (unpublished observations). Thus, we predict that rats perform less good in the suggested alternatives, potentially even (in case of same-different) resulting in a wider performance gap with humans.

      I also found that a lot of essential information is not conveyed clearly in the manuscript. Perhaps it is there in earlier studies but it is very tedious for a reader to go back to some other studies to understand this one. For instance, the exact number of image pairs used for training and testing for rats and humans was either missing or hard to find out. The task used on rats was also extremely difficult to understand. An image of the experimental setup or a timeline graphic showing the entire trial with screenshots would have helped greatly.

      All the image pairs used for training and testing for rats and humans are depicted in Figure 1 (for rats) and Supplemental Figure 6 (for humans). For the first training protocol (Training), only one image pair was shown, with the target being the concave object with horizontal alignment of the spheres. For the second training protocol (Dimension learning), three image pairs were shown, consisting of the base pair, a pair which differs only in concavity, and a pair which differs only in alignment. For the third training protocol (Transformations) and all testing protocols, all combination of targets and distractors were presented. For example, in the Rotation X protocol, the stimuli consisted of 6 targets and 6 distractors, resulting in a total of 36 image pairs for this protocol. The task used on rats is exactly as shown in Figure 1. A trial started with two blank screens. Once the animal initiated a trial by sticking its head in the reward tray, one stimulus was presented on each screen. There was no time limit and so the stimuli remained on the screen until the animal made a decision. If the animal touched the target, it received a sugar pellet as reward and a ITI of 20s started. If the animal touched the distractor, it did not receive a sugar pellet and a time-out of 5s started in addition to the 20s ITI.

      We have clarified this in the manuscript.

      The authors state that the rats received random reward on 80% of the trials, but is that on 80% of the correctly responded trials or on 80% of trials regardless of the correctness of the response? If these are free choice experiments, then the task demands are quite different. This needs to be clarified. Similarly, the authors mention that 1/3 of the trials in a given test block contained the old base pair - are these included in the accuracy calculations?

      The animals receive random reward on 80% on all testing trials with new stimuli, regardless of the correctness of the response. This was done to ensure that we can measure true generalization based upon learning in the training phase, and that the animals do not learn/are not trained in these testing stimuli. For the trials with the old stimuli (base pair), the animals always received real reward (reward when correct; no reward in case of error).

      The 1/3rd trials with old stimuli are not included in the accuracy calculations but were used as a quality check/control to investigate which sessions have to be excluded and to assure that the rats were still doing the task properly. We have added this in the manuscript.

      The authors were injecting noise with stimuli to cDNN to match its accuracy to rat. However, that noise potentially can interacted with the signal in cDNN and further influence the results. That could generate hidden confound in the results. Can they acknowledge/discuss this possibility?

      Yes, adding noise can potentially interact with the signal and further influence the results. Without noise, the average training data of the network would lie around 100% which would be unrealistic, given the performances of the animals. To match the training performance of the neural networks with that of the rats, we added noise 100 times and averaged over these iterations (cfr. (Schnell et al., 2023; Vinken & Op de Beeck, 2021)).  

      Reviewer #2, weaknesses:

      1) There are a few inconsistencies in the number of subjects reported. Sometimes 45 humans are mentioned and sometimes 50. Probably they are just typos, but it's unclear.

      Thank you for your feedback. We have doublechecked this and changed the number of subjects where necessary. We collected data from 50 human participants, but had to exclude 5 of them due to low performance during the quality check (Dimension learning) protocols. Similarly, we collected data from 12 rats but had to exclude one animal because of health issues. All these data exclusion steps were mentioned in the Methods section of the original version of the manuscript, but the subject numbers were not always properly adjusted in the description in the Results section. This is now corrected.

      2) A few aspects mentioned in the introduction and results are only defined in the Methods thus making the manuscript a bit hard to follow (e.g. the alignment dimension), thus I had to jump often from the main text to the methods to get a sense of their meaning.

      Thank you for your feedback. We have clarified some aspects in the Introduction, such as the alignment dimension.

      4) Many important aspects of the task are not fully described in the Methods (e.g. size of the stimuli, reaction times and basic statistics on the responses).

      We have added the size of the stimuli to the Methods section and clarified that the stimuli remained on the screen until the animals made a choice. Reaction time in our task would not be interpretable given that stimuli come on the screen when the animal initiates a trial with its back to the screen. Therefore we do not have this kind of information.

      Reviewer #1

      • Can the authors show all the high vs zero and zero vs high stimulus pairs either in the main or supplementary figures? It would be instructive to know if some other simple property covaried between these two sets.

      In Figure 1, all images of all protocols are shown. For the High vs. Zero and Zero vs. High protocols, we used a deep neural network to select a total of 7 targets and 7 distractors. This results in 49 image pairs (every combination of target-distractor).

      • Are there individual differences across animals? It would be useful for the authors to show individual accuracy for each animal where possible.

      We now added individual rat data for all test protocols – 1 colour per rat, black circle = average. We have added this picture to the Supplementary material (Supplementary Figure 1).

      • Figure 1 - it was not truly clear to me how many image pairs were used in the actual experiment. Also, it was very confusing to me what was the target for the test trials. Additionally, authors reported their task as a categorisation task, but it is a discrimination task.

      Figure 1 shows all the images that were used in this study. Every combination of every target-distractor in each protocol (except for Dimension learning) was presented to the animals. For example in Rotation X, the test stimuli as shown in Fig. 1 consisted of 6 targets and 6 distractors, resulting in a total of 36 image pairs for this test protocol.

      In each test protocol, the target corresponded to the concave object with horizontally attached spheres, or the object from the pair that in the stimulus space was closed to this object. We have added this clarification in the Introduction: “We started by training the animals in a base stimulus pair, with the target being the concave object with horizontally aligned spheres. Once the animals were trained in this base stimulus pair, we used the identity-preserving transformations to test for generalization.” as well as in the caption of Figure 1. We have changed the term “categorisation task” to “discrimination task” throughout the manuscript.

      • Figure 2 - what are the red and black lines? How many new pairs are being tested here? Panel labels are missing (a/b/c etc)

      We have changed this figure by adding panel labels, and clarifying the missing information in the caption. All images that were shown to the animals are presented on this figure. For Dimension Learning, only three image pairs were shown (base pair, concavity pair, alignment pair) and for the Transformations protocol, every combination of every target and distractor were shown, i.e. 25 image pairs in total.

      • Figure 3 - last panel: the 1st and 2nd distractor look identical.

      We understand your concern as these two distractors indeed look quite similar. They are different however in terms of how they are rotated along the x, y and z axes (see Author response image 1 for a bigger image of these two distractors). The similarity is due to the existence of near-symmetry in the object shape which causes high self-similarity for some large rotations.

      Author response image 1.

      • Line 542 – authors say they have ‘concatenated’ the performance of the animals, but do they mean they are taking the average across animals?

      It is both. In this specific analysis we calculated the performance of the animals, which was indeed averaged across animals, per test protocol, per stimulus pair. This resulted in 9 arrays (one for each test protocol) of several performances (1 for each stimulus pair). These 9 arrays were concatenated by linking them together in one big array (i.e. placing them one after the other). We did the same concatenation with the distance to hyperplane of the network on all nine test protocols. These two concatenated arrays with 287 values each (one with the animal performance and one with the DNN performance) were correlated.

      • Line 164 - What are these 287 image pairs - this is not clear.

      The 287 image pairs correspond to all image pairs of all 9 test protocols: 36 (Rotation X) + 36 (Rotation Y) + 36 (Rotation Z) + 4 (Size) + 25 (Position) + 16 (Light location) + 36 (Combination Rotation) + 49 (Zero vs. high) + 49 (High vs. zero) = 287 image pairs in total. We have clarified this in the manuscript.

      • Line 215 - Human rat correlation (0.18) was comparable to the best cDNN layer correlation. What does this mean?

      The human rat correlation (0.18) was closest to the best cDNN layer - rat correlation (about 0.15). In the manuscript we emphasize that rat performance is not well captured by individual cDNN layers.  

      Reviewer #2

      Major comments

      • In l.23 (and in the methods) the authors mention 50 humans, but in l.87 they are 45. Also, both in l.95 and in the Methods the authors mention "twelve animals" but they wrote 11 elsewhere (e.g. abstract and first paragraph of the results).

      In our human study design, we introduced several Dimension learning protocols. These were later used as a quality check to indicate which participants were outliers, using outlier detection in R. This resulted in 5 outlying human participants, and thus we ended with a pool of 45 human participants that were included in the analyses. This information was given in the Methods section of the original manuscript, but we did not mention the correct numbers everywhere. We have corrected this in the manuscript. We also changed the number of participants (humans and rats) to the correct one throughout the entire manuscript.

      • At l.95 when I first met the "4x4 stimulus grid" I had to guess its meaning. It would be really useful to see the stimulus grid as a panel in Figure 1 (in general Figures S1 and S4 could be integrated as panels of Figure 1). Also, even if the description of the stimulus generation in the Methods is probably clear enough, the authors might want to consider adding a simple schematic in Figure 1 as well (e.g. show the base, either concave or convex, and then how the 3 spheres are added to control alignment).

      We have added the 4x4 stimulus grid in the main text.

      • There is also another important point related to the choice of the network. As I wrote, I find the overall approach very interesting and powerful, but I'm actually worried that AlexNet might not be a good choice. I have experience trying to model neuronal responses from IT in monkeys, and there even the higher layers of AlexNet aren't that helpful. I need to use much deeper networks (e.g. ResNet or GoogleNet) to get decent fits. So I'm afraid that what is deemed as "high" in AlexNet might not be as high as the authors think. It would be helpful, as a sanity check, to see if the authors get the same sort of stimulus categories when using a different, deeper network.

      We added a consideration to the manuscript about which network to use (see the Discussion): “We chose to work with Alexnet, as this is a network that has been used as a benchmark in many previous studies (e.g. (Cadieu et al., 2014; Groen et al., 2018; Kalfas et al., 2018; Nayebi et al., 2023; Zeman et al., 2020)), including studies that used more complex stimuli than the stimulus space in our current study. […] . It is in line with the literature that a typical deep neural network, AlexNet and also more complex ones, can explain human and animal behaviour to a certain extent but not fully. The explained variance might differ among DNNs, and there might be DNNs that can explain a higher proportion of rat or human behaviour. Most relevant for our current study is that DNNs tend to agree in terms of how representations change from lower to higher hierarchical layers, because this is the transformation that we have targeted in the Zero vs. high and High vs. zero testing protocols. (Pinto et al., 2008) already revealed that a simple V1-like model can sometimes result in surprisingly good object recognition performance. This aspect of our findings is also in line with the observation of Vinken & Op de Beeck (2021) that the performance of rats in many previous tasks might not be indicative of highly complex representations. Nevertheless, there is still a relative difference in complexity between lower and higher levels in the hierarchy. That is what we capitalize upon with the Zero vs. high and High vs. zero protocols. Thus, it might be more fruitful to explicitly contrast different levels of processing in a relative way rather than trying to pinpoint behaviour to specific levels of processing.”

      • The task description needs way more detail. For how long were the stimuli presented? What was their size? Were the positions of the stimuli randomized? Was it a reaction time task? Was the time-out used as a negative feedback? In case, when (e.g. mistakes or slow responses)? Also, it is important to report some statistics about the basic responses. What was the average response time, what was the performance of individual animals (over days)? Did they show any bias for a particular dimension (either the 2 baseline dimensions or the identity preserving ones) or side of response? Was there a correlation within animals between performance on the baseline task and performance on the more complex tasks?

      Thank you for your feedback. We have added more details to the task description in the manuscript.

      The stimuli were presented on the screens until the animals reacted to one of the two screens. The size of the stimuli was 100 x 100 pixel. The position of the stimuli was always centred/full screen on the touchscreens. It was not a reaction time task and we also did not measure reaction time.

      • Related to my previous comment, I wonder if the relative size/position of the stimulus with respect to the position of the animal in the setup might have had an impact on the performance, also given the impact of size shown in Figure 2. Was the position of the rat in the setup monitored (e.g. with DeepLabCut)? I guess that on average any effect of the animal position might be averaged away, but was this actually checked and/or controlled for?

      The position of the rat was not monitored in the setup. In a previous study from our lab (Crijns & Op de Beeck, 2019), we investigated the visual acuity of rats in the touchscreen setups by presenting gratings with different cycles per screen to see how it affects their performance in orientation discrimination. With the results from this study and general knowledge about rat visual acuity, we derived that the decision distance of rats lies around 12.5cm from the screen. We have added this to the discussion.

      Minor comments

      • l.33 The sentence mentions humans, but the references are about monkeys. I believe that this concept is universal enough not to require any citation to support it.

      Thank you for your feedback. We have removed the citations.

      • This is very minor and totally negligible. The acronymous cDNN is not that common for convents (and it's kind of similar to cuDNN), it might help clarity to stick to a more popular acronymous, e.g. CNN or ANN. Also, given that the "high" layers used for stimulus selection where not convolutional layers after all (if I'm not mistaken).

      Thank you for your feedback. We have changed the acronym to ‘CNN’ in the entire manuscript.

      • In l.107-109 the authors identified a few potential biases in their stimuli, and they claim these biases cannot explain the results. However, the explanation is given only in the next pages. It might help to mention that before or to move that paragraph later, as I was just wondering about it until I finally got to the part on the brightness bias.

      We expanded the analysis of these dimensions (e.g. brightness) throughout the manuscript.

      • It would help a lot the readability to put also a label close to each dimension in Figures 2 and 3. I had to go and look at Figure S4 to figure that out.

      Figures 2 and 3 have been updated, also including changes related to other comments.

      • In Figure 2A, please specify what the red dashed line means.

      We have edited the caption of Figure 2: “Figure 2 (a) Results of the Dimension learning training protocol. The black dashed horizontal line indicates chance level performance and the red dashed line represents the 80% performance threshold. The blue circles on top of each bar represent individual rat performances. The three bars represent the average performance of all animals on the old pair (Old), the pair that differs only in concavity (Conc) and on the pair that differs only in alignment (Align). (b) Results of the Transformations training protocol. Each cell of the matrix indicates the average performance per stimulus pair, pooled over all animals. The columns represent the distractors, whereas the rows separate the targets. The colour bar indicates the performance correct. ”

      • Related to that, why performing a binomial test on 80%? It sounds arbitrary.

      We performed the binomial test on 80% as 80% is our performance threshold for the animals

      • The way the cDNN methods are introduced makes it sound like the authors actually fine-tuned the weights of AlexNet, while (if I'm not mistaken), they trained a classifier on the activations of a pre-trained AlexNet with frozen weights. It might be a bit confusing to readers. The rest of the paragraph instead is very clear and easy to follow.

      We think the most confusing sentence was “ Figure 7 shows the performance of the network after training the network on our training stimuli for all test protocols. “ We changed this sentence to “ Figure 8 shows the performance of the network for each of the test protocols after training classifiers on the training stimuli using the different DNN layers.“

      Reviewer #3

      Main recommendations:

      Although it may not fully explain the entire pattern of visual behavior, it is important to discuss rat visual acuity and its impact on the perception of visual features in the stimulus set.

      We have added a paragraph to the Discussion that discusses the visual acuity of rats and its impact on perceiving the visual features of the stimuli.

      The authors observed a potential influence of image brightness on behavior during the dimension learning protocol. Was there a correlation between image brightness and the subsequent image transformations?

      We have added this to the Discussion: “To further investigate to which visual features the rat performance and human performance correlates best with, we calculated the correlation between rat performance and pixel similarity of the test image pairs, as well as the correlation between rat performance and brightness in the test image pairs. Here we found a correlation of 0.34 for pixel similarity and 0.39 for brightness, suggesting that these two visual features partly explain our results when compared to the full-set reliability of rat performance (0.58). If we perform the same correlation with the human performances, we get a correlation of 0.12 for pixel similarity and -0.12 for brightness. With the full-set reliability of 0.58 (rats) and 0.63 (humans) in mind, this suggests that even pixel similarity and brightness only partly explain the performances of rats and humans.”

      Did the rats rely on consistent visual features to perform the tasks? I assume the split-half analysis was on data pooled across rats. What was the average correlation between rats? Were rats more internally consistent (split-half within rat) than consistent with other rats?

      The split-half analysis was indeed performed on data pooled across rats. We checked whether rats are more internally consistent by comparing the split-half within correlations with the split-half between correlations. For the split-half within correlations, we split the data for each rat in two subsets and calculated the performance vectors (performance across all image pairs). We then calculated the correlation between these two vectors for each animal. To get the split-half between correlation, we calculated the correlation between the performance vector of every subset data of every rat with every other subset data from the other rats. Finally, we compared for each animal its split-half within correlation with the split-half between correlations involving that animal. The result of this paired t-test (p = 0.93, 95%CI [-0.09; 0.08]) suggests that rats were not internally more consistent.

      Discussion of the cDNN performance and its relation to rat behavior could be expanded and clarified in several ways:

      • The paper would benefit from further discussion regarding the low correlations between rat behavior and cDNN layers. Is the main message that cDNNs are not a suitable model for rat vision? Or can we conclude that the peak in mid layers indicates that rat behavior reflects mid-level visual processing? It would be valuable to explore what we currently know about the organization of the rat visual cortex and how applicable these models are to their visual system in terms of architecture and hierarchy.

      We added a consideration to the manuscript about which network to use (see Discussion).

      • The cDNN exhibited above chance performance in various early layers for several test protocols (e.g., rotations, light location, combination rotation). Does this limit the interpretation of the complexity of visual behavior required to perform these tasks?

      This is not uncommon to find. Pinto et al. (2008) already revealed that a simple V1-like model can sometimes result in surprisingly good object recognition performance. This aspect of our findings is also in line with the observation of Vinken & Op de Beeck (2021) that the performance of rats in many previous tasks might not be indicative of highly complex representations. Nevertheless, there is still a relative difference in complexity between lower and higher levels in the hierarchy. That is what we capitalize upon with the High vs zero and the Zero vs high protocols. Thus, it might be more fruitful to explicitly contrast different levels of processing in a relative way rather than trying to pinpoint behavior to specific levels of processing. This argumentation is added to the Discussion section.

      • How representative is the correlation profile between cDNN layers and behavior across protocols? Pooling stimuli across protocols may be necessary to obtain stable correlations due to relatively modest sample numbers. However, the authors could address how much each individual protocol influences the overall correlations in leave-one-out analyses. Are there protocols where rat behavior correlates more strongly with higher layers (e.g., when excluding zero vs. high)?

      We prefer to base our conclusions mostly on the pooled analyses rather than individual protocols. As the reviewer also mentions, we can expect that the pooled analyses will provide the most stable results. For information, we included leave-one-out analyses in the supplemental material. Excluding the Zero vs. High protocol did not result in a stronger correlation with the higher layers. It was rare to see correlations with higher layers, and in the one case that we did (when excluding High versus zero) the correlations were still higher in several mid-level layers.

      Author response image 2.

      • The authors hypothesize that the cDNN results indicate that rats rely on visual features such as contrast. Can this link be established more firmly? e.g., what are the receptive fields in the layers that correlate with rat behavior sensitive to?

      This hypothesis was made based on previous in-lab research ((Schnell et al., 2023) where we found rats indeed rely on contrast features. In this study, we performed a face categorization task, parameterized on contrast features, and we investigated to what extent rats use contrast features to perform in a face categorization task. Similarly as in the current study, we used a DNN that as trained and tested on the same stimuli as the animals to investigate the representations of the animals. There, we found that the animals use contrast features to some extent and that this correlated best with the lower layers of the network. Hence, we would say that the lower layers correlate best with rat behaviour that is sensitive to contrast. Earlier layers of the network include local filters that simulate V1-like receptive fields. Higher layers of the network, on the other hand, are used for object selectivity.

      • There seems to be a disconnect between rat behavior and the selection of stimuli for the high (zero) vs. zero (high) protocols. Specifically, rat behavior correlated best with mid layers, whereas the image selection process relied on earlier layers. What is the interpretation when rat behavior correlates with higher layers than those used to select the stimuli?

      We agree that it is difficult to pinpoint a particular level of processing, and it might be better to use relative terms: lower/higher than. This is addressed in the manuscript by the edit in response to three comments back.

      • To what extent can we attribute the performance below the ceiling for many protocols to sensory/perceptual limitations as opposed to other factors such as task structure, motivation, or distractibility?

      We agree that these factors play a role in the overall performance difference. In Figure 5, the most right bar shows the percentage of all animals (light blue) vs all humans (dark blue) on the old pair that was presented during the testing protocol. Even here, the performance of the animals was lower than humans, and this pattern extended to the testing protocols as well. This was most likely due to motivation and/or distractibility which we know can happen in both humans and rats but affects the rat results more with our methodology.

      Minor recommendations:

      • What was the trial-to-trial variability in the distance and position of the rat's head relative to the stimuli displayed on the screen? Can this variability be taken into account in the size and position protocols? How meaningful is the cDNN modelling of these protocols considering that the training and testing of the model does not incorporate this trial-to-trial variability?

      We have no information on this trial-to-trial variability. We have information though on what rats typically do overall from an earlier paper that was mentioned in response to an earlier comment (Crijns et al.).

      We have added a disclaimer in the Discussion on our lack of information on trial-to-trial variability.

      • Several of the protocols varied a visual feature dimension (e.g., concavity & alignment) relative to the base pair. Did rat performance correlate with these manipulations? How did rat behavior relate to pixel dissimilarity, either between target and distractor or in relation to the trained base pair?

      We have added this to the Discussion. See also our general comments in the Public responses.

      • What could be the underlying factor(s) contributing to the difference in accuracy between the "small transformations" depicted in Figure 2 and some of the transformations displayed in Figure 3? In particular, it seems that the variability of targets and distractors is greater for the "small transformations" in Figure 2 compared to the rotation along the y-axis shown in Figure 3.

      There are several differences between these protocols. Before considering the stimulus properties, we should take into account other factors. The Transformations protocol was a training protocol, meaning that the animals underwent several sessions in this protocol, always receiving real reward during the trials, and only stopping once a high enough performance was reached. For the protocols in Figure 3, the animals were also placed in these protocols for multiple sessions in order to obtain enough trials, however, the difference here is that they did not receive real reward and testing was also stopped if performance was still low.

      • In Figure 3, it is unclear which pairwise transformation accuracies were above chance. It would be helpful if the authors could indicate significant cells with an asterisk. The scale for percentage correct is cut off at 50%. Were there any instances where the behaviors were below 50%? Specifically, did the rats consistently choose the wrong option for any of the pairs? It would be helpful to add "old pair", "concavity" and "alignment" to x-axis labels in Fig 2A .

      We have added “old”, “conc” and “align” to the x-axis labels in Figure 2A.

      • Considering the overall performance across protocols, it seems overstated to claim that the rats were able to "master the task."

      When talking about “mastering the task”, we talk about the training protocols where we aimed that the animals would perform at 80% and not significantly less. We checked this throughout the testing protocols as well, where we also presented the old pair as quality control, and their performance was never significantly lower than our 80% performance threshold on this pair, suggesting that they mastered the task in which they were trained. To avoid discussion on semantics, we also rephrased “master the task” into “learn the task”.

      • What are the criteria for the claim that the "animal model of choice for vision studies has become the rodent model"? It is likely that researchers in primate vision may hold a different viewpoint, and data such as yearly total publication counts might not align with this claim.

      Primate vision is important for investigating complex visual aspects. With the advancements in experimental techniques for rodent vision, e.g. genetics and imaging techniques as well as behavioural tasks, the rodent model has become an important model as well. It is not necessarily an “either” or “or” question (primates or rodents), but more a complementary issue: using both primates and rodents to unravel the full picture of vision.

      We have changed this part in the introduction to “Lately, the rodent model has become an important model in vision studies, motivated by the applicability of molecular and genetic tools rather than by the visual capabilities of rodents”.

      • The correspondence between the list of layers in Supplementary Tables 8 and 9 and the layers shown in Figures 4 and 6 could be clarified.

      We have clarified this in the caption of Figure 7

      • The titles in Figures 4 and 6 could be updated from "DNN" to "cDNN" to ensure consistency with the rest of the manuscript.

      Thank you for your feedback. We have changed the titles in Figures 4 and 6 such that they are consistent with the rest of the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      (1) Potential bleed-over across frequencies in the spectral domain is a major concern for all of the results in this paper. The fact that alpha power, 36Hz and 40Hz frequency-tagged amplitude and 4Hz intermodulation frequency power is generally correlated with one another amplifies this concern. The authors are attaching specific meaning to each of these frequencies, but perhaps there is simply a broadband increase in neural activity when anticipating an auditory target compared to a visual target?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comment regarding the potential bleed-over across frequencies in the spectral domain. We fully acknowledge that the trade-off between temporal and frequency resolution is a challenge, particularly given the proximity of the frequencies we are examining.

      To address this concern, we performed additional analyses to investigate whether there is indeed a broadband increase in neural activity when anticipating an auditory target as compared to a visual target, as opposed to distinct frequency-specific effects. Our results show that the bleed-over between frequencies is minimal and does not significantly affect our findings. Specifically, we repeated the analyses using the same filter and processing steps for the 44 Hz frequency. At this frequency, we did not observe any significant differences between conditions.

      These findings suggest that the effects we report are indeed specific to the 40 Hz frequency band and not due to a general broadband increase in neural activity. We hope this addresses the reviewer’s concern and strengthens the validity of our frequency-specific results. We have now added this analysis to the methods section of our manuscript.

      Line 730: To confirm that 4 Hz is a sufficient distance between tagging frequencies, we repeated to analysis for 43.5 to 44.5. We found no indication of frequency-bleeding over, as the effects observed at 40 Hz, were not present at 44 Hz (see SUPPL Fig. 11).

      We do, however, not specifically argue against the possibility of a broadband increase in sensory processing when anticipating an auditory compared to a visual target. But even a broadband-increase would directly contradict the alpha inhibition hypothesis, which poses that an increase in alpha completely disengage the whole cortex. We have made this clearer in the text now.

      Line 491: As auditory targets were significantly more difficult than visual targets in our first study and of comparable difficulty in our second study, these results strongly speak to a vigilance increase of sensory processing independent of modality and an inability to selectively disengage one sensory modality in anticipation of a demanding task. This view is consistent with previous work in which visual SSEPs elicited by irrelevant background stimulation increased with task load in an auditory discrimination task (Jacoby et al., 2012).

      (2) Moreover, 36Hz visual and 40Hz auditory signals are expected to be filtered in the neocortex. Applying standard filters and Hilbert transform to estimate sensory evoked potentials appears to rely on huge assumptions that are not fully substantiated in this paper. In Figure 4, 36Hz "visual" and 40Hz "auditory" signals seem largely indistinguishable from one another, suggesting that the analysis failed to fully demix these signals.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful concern regarding the filtering and demixing of the 36 Hz visual and 40 Hz auditory signals, and we share the same reservations about the reliance on standard filters and the Hilbert transform method.

      To address this, we would like to draw attention to SUPPL Fig. 11, which demonstrates that a 4 Hz difference is sufficient to effectively demix the signals using our chosen filtering and Hilbert transform approach. We argue that the reason the 36 Hz visual and 40 Hz auditory signals show similar topographies lies not in incomplete demixing but rather in the possibility that this condition difference reflects sensory integration, rather than signal contamination.

      This interpretation is further supported by our findings with the intermodulation frequency at 4 Hz, which also suggests cross-modal integration. Furthermore, source localization analysis revealed that the strongest condition differences were observed in the precuneus, an area frequently associated with sensory integration processes. We have now expanded on this in the discussion section to better clarify this point.

      Line 578: Previous research has shown that simultaneous frequency-tagging at multiple frequencies can evoke a response at the intermodulation frequency (f1 – f2), which in multimodal settings is thought to reflect cross-modal integration (Drijvers et al., 2021). This concept aligns closely with our findings, where increased vigilance in the sensory system, prompted by anticipation of a difficult auditory target, resulted in an increase in the intermodulation frequency. Similarly, our data shows that visual signal enhancement was localized in the precuneus, further supporting the role of this region in sensory integration (Al-Ramadhani et al., 2021; Xie et al., 2019).

      (3) The asymmetric results in the visual and auditory modalities preclude a modality-general conclusion about the function of alpha. However, much of the language seems to generalize across sensory modalities (e.g., use of the term 'sensory' rather than 'visual').

      We agree that in some cases we have not made a sufficient distinction between visual and sensory. We have now made sure, that when using ‘sensory’, we either describe overall theories, which are not visual-exclusive or refer to the possibility of a broad sensory increase. However, when directly discussing our results and the interpretation thereof, we now use ‘visual’.

      (4) In this vein, some of the conclusions would be far more convincing if there was at least a trend towards symmetry in source-localized analyses of MEG signals. For example, how does alpha power in primary auditory cortex (A1) compare when anticipating auditory vs visual target? What do the frequency tagged visual and auditory responses look like when just looking at primary visual cortex (V1) or A1?

      We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion and have added a virtual channel analysis. We were however, not interested in alpha power in primary auditory cortex, as we were specifically interested in the posterior alpha, which is usually increased when expecting an auditory compared to a visual target (and used to be interpreted as a blanket inhibition of the visual cortex). We have now improved upon the clarity concerning this point in the manuscript.

      We have however, followed the reviewer’s suggestion of a virtual channel analysis, showing that the condition differences are not observable in primary visual cortex for the 36 Hz visual signal and in primary auditory cortex for the 40 Hz auditory signal. Our data clearly shows that there is an alpha condition difference in V1, while there no condition difference for 36 Hz in V1 and for 40 Hz in Heschl’s Gyrus.

      Line 356: Additionally, we replicated this effect with a virtual channel analysis in V1 (see SUPPL Fig. 12)

      Line 403: Furthermore, a virtual channel analysis in V1 and Heschl’s gyrus confirmed that there were no condition differences in primary visual and auditory areas (see SUPPL Fig. 12).

      (5) Blinking would have a huge impact on the subject's ability to ignore the visual distractor. The best thing to do would be to exclude from analysis all trials where the subjects blinked during the cue-to-target interval. The authors mention that in the MEG experiment, "To remove blinks, trials with very large eye-movements (> 10 degrees of visual angle) were removed from the data (See supplement Fig. 5)." This sentence needs to be clarified, since eye-movements cannot be measured during blinking. In addition, it seems possible to remove putative blink trials from EEG experiments as well, since blinks can be detected in the EEG signals.

      We agree with the reviewer that this point has been phrased in a confusing way. From the MEG-data, we removed eyeblinks using ICA. Along for the supplementary Fig. 5 analysis, we used the eye-tracking data to make sure that participants were in fact fixating the centre of the screen. For this analysis, we removed trials with blinks (which can be seen in the eye-tracker as huge amplitude movements or as large eye-movements in degrees of visual angle; see figure below to show a blink in the MEG data and the according eye-tracker data in degrees of visual angle). We have now clarified this in the methods section.

      As for the concern closed eyes to ignore visual distractors, in both experiments we can observe highly significant distractor cost in accuracy for visual distractors, which we hope will convince the reviewer that our visual distractors were working as intended.

      Author response image 1.

      Illustration of eye-tracker data for a trial without and a trial with a blink. All data points recorded during this trial are plottet. A, ICA component 1, which reflects blinks and its according data trace in a trial. No blink is visible. B, eye-tracker data transformed into degrees of visual angle for the trial depicted in A. C, ICA component 1, which reflects blinks and its according data trace in a trial. A clear blink is visible. D, eye-tracker data transformed into degrees of visual angle for the trial depicted in C.

      Line 676: To confirm that participants had focused on the fixation cross during the cue-to-target interval, we incorporated eye-tracking into our MEG-experiment (EyeLink 1000 Plus). Correct trials of the second block were analysed for vertical and horizontal eye-movements. To exclude blinks from this analysis, trials with very large eye-movements (> 10 degrees of visual angle) were removed from the eye-tracking data (See suppl Fig. 5).

      (6) It would be interesting to examine the neutral cue trials in this task. For example, comparing auditory vs visual vs neutral cue conditions would be indicative of whether alpha was actively recruited or actively suppressed. In addition, comparing spectral activity during cue-to-target period on neutral-cue auditory correct vs incorrect trials should mimic the comparison of auditory-cue vs visual-cue trials. Likewise, neutral-cue visual correct vs incorrect trials should mimic the attention-related differences in visual-cue vs auditory-cue trials.

      We have analysed the neutral cue trials in the EEG dataset (see suppl. Fig. 1). There were no significant differences to auditory or visual cues, but descriptively alpha power was higher for neutral cues compared to visual cues and lower for neutral cues compared to auditory cues. While this may suggest that for visual trials alpha is actively suppressed and for auditory trials actively recruited, we do not feel comfortable to make this claim, as the neutral condition may not reflect a completely neutral state. The neutral task can still be difficult, especially because of the uncertainty of the target modality.

      As for the analysis of incorrect versus correct trials, we appreciate the idea, but unfortunately the accuracy rate was quite high so that the number of incorrect trials is insufficient to perform a reliable analysis.

      (7) In the abstract, the authors state that "This implies that alpha modulation does not solely regulate 'gain control' in early sensory areas but rather orchestrates signal transmission to later stages of the processing stream." However, I don't see any supporting evidence for the latter claim, that alpha orchestrates signal transmission to later stages of the processing stream. If the authors are claiming an alternative function to alpha, this claim should be strongly substantiated.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out, that we have not sufficiently explained our case. The first point refers to gain control as elucidated by the alpha inhibition hypothesis, which claims that increases in alpha disengage an entire cortical area. Since we have confirmed the alpha increase in our data to originate from primary visual cortex through source analysis, this should lead to decreased visual processing. The increase in 36 Hz visual processing therefore directly contradicts the alpha inhibition hypothesis. We propose an alternative explanation for the functionality of alpha activity in this task. Through pulsed inhibition, information packages of relevant visual information could be transmitted down the processing stream, thereby enhancing relevant visual signal transmission. We argue the fact that the enhanced visual 36 Hz signal we found correlated with visual alpha power on a trial-by-trial basis, and did not originate from primary visual cortex, but from areas known for sensory integration supports our claim.

      We have now tried to make this point clearer by rephrasing our manuscript. Additionally, we have also now further clarified this point in our discussion.

      Line 527: Our data provides evidence in favour of this view, as we can show that early sensory alpha activity covaries over trials with SSEP magnitude in higher order sensory areas. If alpha activity exerted gain control in early visual regions, increased alpha activity would have to lead to a decrease in SSEP responses. In contrast, we observe that increased alpha activity originating from early visual cortex is related to enhanced visual processing. Source localization confirmed that this enhancement was not originating from early visual areas, but from areas associated with later stages of the processing stream such as the precuneus, which has been connected to sensory integration (Al-Ramadhani et al., 2021; Xie et al., 2019). While we cannot completely rule out alternative explanations, it seems plausible to assume that inhibition of other task-irrelevant communication pathways leads to prioritised and thereby enhanced processing over relevant pathways. In line with previous literature (Morrow et al., 2023; Peylo et al., 2021; Zhigalov & Jensen, 2020b), we therefore suggest that alpha activity limits task-irrelevant feedforward communication, thereby enhancing processing capabilities in relevant downstream areas (see Fig. 1A).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):Minor Concerns:

      (1) I suggest adding more details about the task in the Results and/or Figure 1 legend. Specifically, when describing the task, I think it would help the readers if the authors specified what the participants had to do to get a trial correct (e.g., press left / down / right arrow if the tone pitch was low (500Hz) / medium (1000Hz) / high (2000Hz).)

      (2) Please clarify whether Gaboar patch was drifting.

      (3) Figure 2C-D: I suggest clarifying in the X-tick labels that + and - trials are in separate blocks (e.g., put 'Block1 visual-' instead of 'visual-').

      We followed the suggestions of the reviewer detailed in point 1-3, which indeed greatly improves the clarity and readability of these parts.

      (4) "Interestingly, auditory distractors reduced reaction times to visual targets, which could be explained by a generally faster processing of auditory targets (Jain et al., 2015), possibly probing faster responses in visual tasks (Naue et al., 2011)." - Please elaborate on how faster processing of auditory targets could lead to the probing of faster responses in visual tasks. Further, if I understand correctly, this should result in a speed-accuracy trade-off, which is not observed in the MEG experiments. If there is a learning effect due to the blocked structure in the MEG experiments, why is it not observed on auditory trials?

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting clarifying this paragraph. We have now rephrased this part and added additional information.

      Concerning the reviewer’s theory, intersensory facilitation can occur in the absence of a speed-accuracy trade-off, as it can affect the motor execution after a decision has been made. Nevertheless, learning effects could also have led to this result in the MEG experiment. Our difficulty calibration did not lead to comparable accuracies in block 1, where auditory targets wetre now less difficult than visual targets. Whith the addition of distractors in block 2, accuracy for auditory targets decreased, while it increased for visual targets. Indeed, one interpretation could be that there was a learning effect for visual targets, which was not prevalent for auditory targets. However, the speed increase when visual targets are coupled with auditory distractors is prevalent in both experiments. Accordingly, we find the intersensory facilitation account more likely.

      line 148: Interestingly, auditory distractors reduced reaction times to visual targets, which could be explained by a generally faster processing of auditory targets (Jain et al., 2015). As such, the auditory distractor possibly caused intersensory facilitation (Nickerson., 1973), whereby reaction times to a target can be facilitated when accompanied by stimuli of other sensory modalities, even if they are irrelevant or distracting.

      (5) Please briefly describe the cluster permutation analysis in the results section.

      We have now added a brief description of the cluster permutation analysis we performed in the results section.

      Line 166: We then applied cluster permutation analysis, whereby real condition differences were tested against coincidental findings by randomly permutating the condition labels to the data and testing for condition differences 1000 times (Maris & Oostenveld, 2007).

      (6) Figure 4A legend: "auditory steady-state evoked potential (ASSEP) averaged over 6 central electrodes displaying the highest 40 Hz power (Fz, FC1, FC2, F11, F2, FCz)." - I suggest marking these 6 electrodes in the scalp map on the figure panel.

      We have followed the suggestion of the reviewer and marked the electrodes/sensors used to illustrate the steady-state responses.

      (7) Lines 281-283: "It was highly significant for the visual 36 Hz response (Fig. 5A, middle columns, p = .033; t(19) = 2.29; BF(10) = 1.91) but did not reach significance for the visual 40 Hz response (Fig. 5B, middle column; p = 0.20; t(19) = 1.32; BF(10) = 0.49)." - Was "visual 40Hz response" a typo? I believe 40Hz pertains to auditory, not visual?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this error and agree that the phrasing was sometimes confusing. We have now used the terms VSSEP and ASSEP to make things clearer throughout the manuscript.

      L. 224-229: The median split was highly significant for the 36 Hz VSSEP response (Fig. 5A, middle columns, p \= .033; t<sub>(19)</sub> = 2.29; BF<sub>(10)</sub> = 1.91) but did not reach significance for the 40 Hz ASSEP response (Fig. 5B, middle column; p = 0.20; t<sub>(19)</sub> = 1.32; BF<sub>(10)</sub> = 0.49).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Brickwedde et al. investigate the role of alpha oscillations in allocating intermodal attention. A first EEG study is followed up with an MEG study that largely replicates the pattern of results (with small to be expected differences). They conclude that a brief increase in the amplitude of auditory and visual stimulus-driven continuous (steady-state) brain responses prior to the presentation of an auditory - but not visual - target speaks to the modulating role of alpha that leads them to revise a prevalent model of gating-by-inhibition.

      Overall, this is an interesting study on a timely question, conducted with methods and analysis that are state-of-the-art. I am particularly impressed by the author's decision to replicate the earlier EEG experiment in MEG following the reviewer's comments on the original submission. Evidently, great care was taken to accommodate the reviewers suggestions.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive feedback and expression of interest in the topic of our manuscript.

      Nevertheless, I am struggling with the report for two main reasons: It is difficult to follow the rationale of the study, due to structural issues with the narrative and missing information or justifications for design and analysis decisions, and I am not convinced that the evidence is strong, or even relevant enough for revising the mentioned alpha inhibition theory. Both points are detailed further below.

      We have now revised major parts of the introduction and results in line with the reviewer’s suggestions, hoping that our rationale is now easier to follow and that our evidence will now be more convincing. We have separated our results section into the first study (EEG) and to second study (MEG), to enhance the rationale of our design choices and readability. We have clarified all mentioned ambiguous parts in our methods section. Additionally, we have revised the introduction to now explain more clearly what results to expect under the alpha inhibition theory in contrast to our alternative account.

      Strength/relevance of evidence for model revision: The main argument rests on 1) a rather sustained alpha effect following the modality cue, 2) a rather transient effect on steady-state responses just before the expected presentation of a stimulus, and 3) a correlation between those two. Wouldn't the authors expect a sustained effect on sensory processing, as measured by steady-state amplitude irrespective of which of the scenarios described in Figure 1A (original vs revised alpha inhibition theory) applies? Also, doesn't this speak to the role of expectation effects due to consistent stimulus timing? An alternative explanation for the results may look like this: Modality-general increased steady-state responses prior to the expected audio stimulus onset are due to increased attention/vigilance. This effect may be exclusive (or more pronounced) in the attend-audio condition due to higher precision in temporal processing in the auditory sense or, vice versa, too smeared in time due to the inferior temporal resolution of visual processing for the attend-vision condition to be picked up consistently. As expectation effects will build up over the course of the experiment, i.e., while the participant is learning about the consistent stimulus timing, the correlation with alpha power may then be explained by a similar but potentially unrelated increase in alpha power over time.

      We thank the reviewer for raising these insightful questions and suggestions.

      It is true that our argument rests on a rather sustained alpha effect and a rather transient effect on steady-state responses ,and a correlation between the two. However, this connection would not be expected under the alpha inhibition hypothesis, which states that alpha activity would inhibit a whole cortical area (when irrelevant to the task), exerting “gain control”. This notion directly contradicts our results of the “irrelevant” visual information a) being transmitted at all and b) increasing.

      However, it has been shown in various reports (see for instance Dugué et al., 2011; Haegens et al., 2011; Spaak et al., 2012) that alpha activity exerts pulsed inhibition, so we proposed an alternative theory of an involvement in signal transmission. In this case, the cyclic inhibition would serve as an ordering system, which only allows for high-priority information to pass, resulting in higher signal-to-noise ratio. We do not make a claim about how fast or when these signals are transmitted in relation to alpha power. For instance, it could be that alpha power increases as a preparatory state even before signal is actually transmitted.  Zhigalov (2020 Hum. Brain M.) has shown that in V1, frequency-tagging responses were up-and down regulated with attention – independent of alpha activity.

      However, we do believe that visual alpha power correlates on a trial-by-trial level with visual 36 Hz frequency-tagging increases (see Fig. 5 and 10 in our manuscript) - a relationship which has not been found in V1 by us and others (see SUPPL Fig. 12 and Zhigalov 2020, Hum. Brain Mapp.) suggest a strong connection. Furthermore, the fact that the alpha modulation originates from early visual areas and occurs prior to any frequency-tagging changes, while the increase in frequency-tagging can be observed in areas which are later in the processing stream (such as the precuneus) is strongly indicative for an involvement of alpha power in the transmission of this signal. We cannot fully exclude alternative accounts and mechanisms which effect both alpha power and frequency-tagging responses.  

      The alternative account described by the reviewer does not contradict our theory, as we argue that the alpha power modulation reflects an expectation effect (and the idea that it could be related to the resolution of auditory versus visual processing is very interesting!). It is also possible that this expectation is, as the reviewer suggests, related to attention/vigilance and might result in a modality-general signal increase. By way of support, we observed an increase in the frequency-tagging response in sensory integration areas. Accordingly, we argue that the alternative explanation provided by the reviewer contradicts the alpha inhibition hypothesis, but not necessarily our alternative theory.

      We have now revised the discussion and are confident our case is now stronger and easier to follow. Additionally, we mentioned the possibility for alternative explanations as well as the possibility, that alpha networks fulfil different roles in different locations/task environments.

      Line 523: Here we propose that alpha activity, rather than modulating early primary sensory processing, exhibits its inhibitory effects at later stages of the processing stream (Antonov et al., 2020; Gundlach et al., 2020; Zhigalov & Jensen, 2020a; Zumer et al., 2014), gating feedforward or feedback communication between sensory areas (Bauer et al., 2020; Haegens et al., 2015; Uemura et al., 2021). Our data provides evidence in favour of this view, as we can show that early sensory alpha activity covaries over trials with SSEP magnitude in higher order sensory areas. If alpha activity exerted gain control in early visual regions, increased alpha activity would have to lead to a decrease in SSEP responses. In contrast, we observe that increased alpha activity originating from early visual cortex is related to enhanced visual processing. Source localization confirmed that this enhancement was not originating from early visual areas, but from areas associated with later stages of the processing stream such as the precuneus, which has been connected to sensory integration (Al-Ramadhani et al., 2021; Xie et al., 2019). While we cannot completely rule out alternative explanations, it seems plausible to assume that inhibition of other task-irrelevant communication pathways leads to prioritised and thereby enhanced processing over relevant pathways. In line with previous literature (Morrow et al., 2023; Peylo et al., 2021; Zhigalov & Jensen, 2020b), we therefore suggest that alpha activity limits task-irrelevant feedforward communication, thereby enhancing processing capabilities in relevant downstream areas (see Fig. 1A).

      References:

      Dugué, L., Marque, P., & VanRullen, R. (2011). The phase of ongoing oscillations mediates the causal relation between brain excitation and visual perception. Journal of Neuroscience, 31(33), 11889–11893. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1161-11.2011

      Haegens, S., Nácher, V., Luna, R., Romo, R., & Jensen, O. (2011). α-Oscillations in the monkey sensorimotor network influence discrimination performance by rhythmical inhibition of neuronal spiking. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 108(48), 19377–19382. https://doi.org/10.1073/PNAS.1117190108

      Spaak, E., Bonnefond, M., Maier, A., Leopold, D. A., & Jensen, O. (2012). Layer-Specific Entrainment of Gamma-Band Neural Activity by the Alpha Rhythm in Monkey Visual Cortex. Current Biology, 22(24), 2313–2318. https://doi.org/10.1016/J.CUB.2012.10.020

      Zhigalov, A., & Jensen, O. (2020). Alpha oscillations do not implement gain control in early visual cortex but rather gating in parieto-occipital regions. Human Brain Mapping, 41(18), 5176–5186. https://doi.org/10.1002/hbm.25183

      Structural issues with the narrative and missing information: Here, I am mostly concerned with how this makes the research difficult to access for the reader. I list the some major, followed by more specific points below:

      In the introduction the authors pit the original idea about alpha's role in gating against some recent contradictory results. If it's the aim of the study to provide evidence for either/or, predictions for the results from each perspective are missing. Also, it remains unclear how this relates to the distinction between original vs revised alpha inhibition theory (Fig. 1A). Relatedly, if this revision is an outcome rather than a postulation for this study, it shouldn't be featured in the first figure.

      We agree with the reviewer that we have not sufficiently clarified our goal as well as how different functionalities of alpha oscillations would lead to different outcomes. We have revised the introduction and restructured the results part and hope that it is now easier to follow. The results part now follows study 1 (EEG) and study 2 (MEG) chronologically, so that results can more easily be differentiated and our design choices for the second study can be explained better.

      Line 50: Recent evidence challenged a direct connection between alpha activity and visual information processing in early visual cortex. As such, both visual steady-state responses and alpha power were modulated by attention, but did not covary when investigating individual trials (Zhigalov & Jensen, 2020). Unfortunately, very few studies have investigated direct connections between alpha activity, attention and sensory signals, especially over trials. Furthermore, results seem to depend on timing of alpha activity in relation to sensory responses as well as stimulus type and outcome measure (Morrow et al., 2023).

      Accordingly, the objective of the current study is to test the alpha inhibition hypothesis compared to an alternative theory. Based on the alpha inhibition hypothesis, alpha modulation is connected to ‘gain control’ in early visual areas through modulation of excitability (Foxe & Snyder, 2011; Jensen & Mazaheri, 2010; Van Diepen et al., 2019).  In contrast, we propose that inhibitory effects of alpha modulation are exhibited at later stages of the processing stream (Peylo et al., 2021; Yang et al., 2023; Zhigalov & Jensen, 2020a; Zumer et al., 2014), gating feedforward or feedback communication between sensory areas (see Fig. 1B; Bauer et al., 2020; Haegens et al., 2015; Uemura et al., 2021).

      Line 80: The aim of our study was to directly test the alpha inhibition hypothesis by investigating if cue-induced modulation of alpha activity coincides with the suppression of frequency-tagging responses in task-irrelevant modalities.

      Line 99: In brief, while we observed the expected cue-induced early-visual alpha modulation, the amplitude of auditory and visual SSEP/SSEFs as well as their intermodulation frequency increased just prior to the onset of the auditory target, contradicting the alpha inhibition hypothesis. The difference between conditions of visual SSEP/SSEFs originated from sensory integration areas and correlated with early sensory alpha activity on a trial-by-trial basis, speaking to an effect of alpha modulation on signal transmission rather than inhibition of early visual areas.

      The analysis of the intermodulation frequency makes a surprise entrance at the end of the Results section without an introduction as to its relevance for the study. This is provided only in the discussion, but with reference to multisensory integration, whereas the main focus of the study is focussed attention on one sense. (Relatedly, the reference to "theta oscillations" in this sections seems unclear without a reference to the overlapping frequency range, and potentially more explanation.) Overall, if there's no immediate relevance to this analysis, I would suggest removing it.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out and have now added information about this frequency to the introduction. We believe that the intermodulation frequency analysis is important, as it potentially supports the notion that condition differences in the visual-frequency tagging response are related to downstream processing rather than overall visual information processing in V1. We would therefore prefer to leave this analysis in the manuscript.

      Line 75: Furthermore, when applying two different frequencies for two different sensory modalities, their intermodulation frequency (f1-f2) has been suggested to reflect cross-modal integration (Drijvers et al., 2021). Due to distinct responses, localisation and attention-dependence, frequency-tagging provides an optimal tool to study sensory signal processing and integration over time.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      As detailed in several points below, I found that I didn't get the information I needed to fully understand design/analysis decisions. In some cases, this may just be a case of re-organising the manuscript, in others crucial info should be added:

      Specific issues:

      Page 2, line 51: How does recent evidence contradict this? Please explain.

      We have added a section that describes the results contradicting the alpha inhibition hypothesis.

      Line 50: Recent evidence challenged a direct connection between alpha activity and visual information processing in early visual cortex. As such, both visual steady-state responses and alpha power were modulated by attention, but did not covary when investigating individual trials (Zhigalov & Jensen, 2020).

      Page 3, line 78-80: "... also interested in relationships [...] on a trial-by-trial basis" - why? Please motivate.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this section, which we feel was not very well phrased. We have rewritten this whole paragraph and hope that our motivation for this study is now clear.

      Line 50: Recent evidence challenged a direct connection between alpha activity and visual information processing in early visual cortex. As such, both visual steady-state responses and alpha power were modulated by attention, but did not covary when investigating individual trials (Zhigalov & Jensen, 2020). Unfortunately, very few studies have investigated direct connections between alpha activity, attention and sensory signals, especially over trials. Furthermore, results seem to depend on timing of alpha activity in relation to sensory responses as well as stimulus type and outcome measure (Morrow et al., 2023).

      Page 4, line 88-92: "... implementing a blocked design" - unclear why? This is explained to some extent in the next few lines but remains unclear without knowing outcomes of the EEG experiment with more detail. Overall, it seems like this methodological detail may be better suited for a narrative in the Results section, that follows a more chronological order from the findings of the EEG experiment to the design of the MEG study.

      More generally, and maybe I missed it, I couldn't find a full account of why a block design was chosen and what the added value was. I believe that re-organising the Results section would allow precisely stating how that was an improvement over the EEG experiment.

      In line with the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now restructured the results section. The first section of the study 2 results now explains our design choices with direct reference to the results of the EEG experiment.

      Line 298: To test the robustness of our results and to employ additional control analyses, we replicated our experiment using MEG (see Fig. 7A). While an increase in visual information processing parallel to an increase in alpha modulation already contradicts the notion of alpha inhibition exerting “gain control”, affecting the whole visual cortex, our claim that alpha modulation instead affects visual information at later processing stages still required further validation. As such, our goal was to perform source analyses showing alpha modulation originating from primary visual areas affected visual information at later processing stages (e.g. not in primary visual cortex). Additionally, to exclude that the uncertainty over possible distractors affected our results, we employed a block design, where block 1 consisted only of trials without distractors and in block 2 targets were always accompanied by a distractor. Furthermore, we aligned the visual and auditory task to be more similar, both of them now featuring frequency-discrimination, which related to sound pitch (frequency) in the auditory condition and stripe-frequency of the Gabor patch in the visual condition. Lastly, to make sure our effects were driven by sensory modality-differences rather than task-difficulty differences, we included a short calibration phase. Prior to the experiment, difficulty of pitch sounds, and Gabor patch frequency were calibrated for each individual, ascertaining a success rate between 55% to 75%.

      The point above also applies to lines 95-97 where it's unclear what "aligning the visual with the auditory task" means. Also, what would be the predictions for "more nuanced interactions [...]"

      We agree that this phrasing was more than confusing and in the process of restructuring our results section, we have now revised this passage (see cited text from our manuscript to the point just above).

      Page 9, line 207-209: One of the few mentions of the "ambivalent" condition (attention to audio+vision?). To what end was that condition added to the experiment originally? The explanation that this condition was dropped from analysis because it did not show significant results does not seem methodologically sound.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, as we had changed the name from ambivalent to non-specific, but this word had slipped our attention. The condition was added to the experiment as a control, which enables us to verify that our cues as well as our distractors work as intended. While interesting to analyse (and we did not drop it completely, the condition comparisons are in the supplementary material), we felt that further analysis of this condition would not contribute to addressing our research question. To be specific, the prerequisite to analysing the effect of alpha modulation is a significant effect of alpha modulation in the first place. We have now clarified the rationale for this condition, as well as our reasoning for omitting it from correlation and source analysis.

      Line 173 When presenting unspecified cues, alpha power changes were not significant, but descriptively larger compared to visual target conditions and lower compared to auditory target conditions (see suppl Fig. 2). However as significant alpha modulation was a prerequisite to test our hypotheses, we excluded this condition from further analysis.

      Page 9, line 209-212: "condition differences in alpha were only significant in block 2 [...] therefore we performed the [...] analysis [...] only for the second half of the experiment." This sounds like double-dipping. Maybe just an issue of phrasing?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that it may appear like ‘double dipping’. The reasoning was the same as the point above, we require a significant alpha modulation to test the effect of alpha modulation on further processing. We have revised this part to be clearer.

      Line 345: In line with previous studies (van Diepen & Mazaheri, 2017), condition differences in alpha activity were only significant in block 2, where distractors were present. As alpha modulation was a prerequisite to test our hypotheses, we performed the following analyses solely with data from block 2 (see Fig. 8).

      Page 12, line 281: Bayes factors are used here (and elsewhere), in addition to NHST. May be worthwhile to mention that briefly before use and give an intro sentence on its use, value and interpretation, and why these are added sometimes but not for all tests reported.

      We agree that we did not introduce this at all and have now added a section, which explains the inclusion as well as the interpretation of the Bayes factor.

      Line 218: To estimate the robustness of these results, we additionally conducted median split analyses between trials with high and low alpha power for each participant, as well as averaged the correlation coefficient of each participant and calculated a one-sample t-test against 0. For each analysis we provided the Bayes Factor, which estimates the strength of support for or against the null hypothesis (BF > 3.2 is considered as substantial evidence and BF > 10 is considered as strong evidence; Kass & Raftery, 1995).

      Throughout the Results section, it's not always clear which results are from the EEG or from the MEG study. Adopting the recommendation in point c) may help with that.

      According to the reviewer’s recommendation, we have restructured our results section and first present the EEG study and afterwards the MEG study.

      Similarly, it seems pivotal to add "visual" and "auditory" when mentioning the 36/40-Hz steady-state responses (or stimulation) to help the reader.

      We agree that visual/auditory 36 Hz / 40 Hz frequency-tagging responses, expecting visual/auditory target becomes lengthy and confusing very quickly. We therefore decided to introduce the abbreviation of visual steady-state evoked potentials/fields (VSSEP/VSSEF) and auditory steady-state evoked potentials/fields (ASSEP/ASSEF).

      Figure 5 - showing the same cluster as "early" and "late" in the margin for the MEG data is potentially confusing.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out and have now adapted the figure to just show one cluster, as we only found this one cluster in our MEG analysis.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This paper seems very strong, particularly given that the follow-up MEG study both (a) clarifies the task design and separates the effect of distractor stimuli into other experimental blocks, and (b) provides source-localization data to more concretely address whether alpha inhibition is occurring at or after the level of sensory processing, and (c) replicates most of the EEG study's key findings.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive feedback and evaluation of our work.

      There are some points that would be helpful to address to bolster the paper. First, the introduction would benefit from a somewhat deeper review of the literature, not just reviewing when the effects of alpha seem to occur, but also addressing how the effect can change depending on task and stimulus design (see review by Morrow, Elias & Samaha (2023).

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and agree. We have now added a paragraph to the introduction that refers to missing correlation studies and the impact of task design.

      Line 53: Unfortunately, very few studies have investigated direct connections between alpha activity, attention and sensory signals, especially over trials. Furthermore, results seem to depend on timing of alpha activity in relation to sensory responses as well as stimulus type and outcome measure (Morrow et al., 2023).

      Additionally, the discussion could benefit from more cautionary language around the revision of the alpha inhibition account. For example, it would be helpful to address some of the possible discrepancies between alpha and SSEP measures in terms of temporal specificity, SNR, etc. (see Peylo, Hilla, & Sauseng, 2021). The authors do a good job speculating as to why they found differing results from previous cross-modal attention studies, but I'm also curious whether the authors think that alpha inhibition/modulation of sensory signals would have been different had the distractors been within the same modality or whether the cues indicated target location, rather than just modality, as has been the case in so much prior work?

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting these interesting discussion points and have included a paragraph in our discussion that clarifies these issues.

      Line 543: It should be noted, the comparison between modulation in alpha activity and in SSEP/SSEFs is difficult, especially concerning timing. This is largely owed to differences in signal-to-noise due to trial averaging in the frequency versus the time domain and temporal and frequency lag in the estimation of alpha activity (Peylo et al., 2021). It is further noteworthy, that the majority of evidence for the alpha inhibition hypothesis focused on the effect of pre-target alpha modulation on behaviour and target-related potentials (Morrow et al., 2023). However, in our data alpha modulation occurs clearly ahead of SSVEP/SSVEF modulation on a scale that could not be simply explained by temporal or frequency smearing. Additionally, significant trial-by-trial correlations, which occur in the frequency domain for both signal types, underline the strong relationship between both measurements.

      Interestingly, we could show that the magnitude of the correlation between alpha power and visual information processing varied between conditions, suggesting a dynamic and adaptive regime. This notion supports the view that alpha oscillations represent a mechanism rather than a specific function, which can fulfil different roles depending on task demand and network location, which has been confirmed in a recent study revealing functionally distinct alpha networks (Clausner et al., 2024). As such, it is conceivable that alpha oscillations can in some cases inhibit local processing, while in other cases, depending on network location, connectivity and demand, alpha oscillation can facilitate signal transmission. In different contexts, utilizing unimodal targets and distractors, spatial cueing, or covert attention, different functional processes could be involved (Morrow et al., 2023). Future research should intensify efforts to disentangle these effects, investigating localized alpha networks intracranially or through combinations of fMRI, EEG and MEG, to clearly measure their effects on sensory processing and behaviour.

      Overall, the analyses and discussion are quite comprehensive, and I believe this paper to be an excellent contribution to the alpha-inhibition literature.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Overall, the paper is well-written, and the analyses and interpretations are strong. I think that the end of the introduction would feel more complete and more read more easily if you outlined all of your main hypotheses (not just trials signaling an auditory stimulus, but visual trials too, and what about distractor trials? This could help justify changes to task design in the MEG study), and then the key findings that motivated the follow-up design, which you then discuss (as opposed to introducing a new aim in this paragraph).

      We thank the reviewer for this positive evaluation. Based on feedback und suggestions from all reviewers, we have revised the structure of the manuscript. The introduction now states more clearly which results would be expected under the alpha inhibition theory and how our results contradict this. The results section has now been divided into two studies, which will make the rationale for our follow-up design easier to follow.

      Line 80: The aim of our study was to directly test the alpha inhibition hypothesis by investigating if cue-induced modulation of alpha activity coincides with the suppression of frequency-tagging responses in task-irrelevant modalities.

      Line 96: In brief, while we observed the expected cue-induced early-visual alpha modulation, the amplitude of auditory and visual SSEP/SSEFs as well as their intermodulation frequency increased just prior to the onset of the auditory target, contradicting the alpha inhibition hypothesis. The difference between conditions of visual SSEP/SSEFs originated from sensory integration areas and correlated with early sensory alpha activity on a trial-by-trial basis, speaking to an effect of alpha modulation on signal transmission rather than inhibition of early visual areas.

      Minor issues:

      L84 - "is" should be "was"

      L93 - "allows" should be "allowed"

      L113 - I think "changed" would suffice

      Fig 1A (text within figure on top) - "erea" should be "area" and caption title should include "of" (Illustration of the...)

      L213 - time window could be clarified

      Fig 4 -captions inconsistently capitalize words and use ) and , following the caption letters

      L253-255 - give you are looking at condition differences, do you mean the response was larger before an auditory target than before a visual target? It currently reads as if you mean that it was larger in that window right before the target as opposed to other time windows

      L368 - "behaviorally" should be "behavioral"

      L407-408 - I think auditory SSEP/SSVEFs should be auditory or visual SSEP/SSEFs, unless you are specifically only talking about auditory SSEPs and visual SSEFs

      L411 - also uses SSVEFs

      L413 - "frequently, or in the case of..."

      L555 - "predicting" should be predicted? Or do you mean only cues that correctly predicted the target?

      We are very grateful for the reviewer for pointing out these mistakes, all of which we have remedied in our manuscript.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study presents potentially valuable results on glutamine-rich motifs in relation to protein expression and alternative genetic codes. The author's interpretation of the results is so far only supported by incomplete evidence, due to a lack of acknowledgment of alternative explanations, missing controls and statistical analysis and writing unclear to non experts in the field. These shortcomings could be at least partially overcome by additional experiments, thorough rewriting, or both.

      We thank both the Reviewing Editor and Senior Editor for handling this manuscript.

      Based on your suggestions, we have provided controls, performed statistical analysis, and rewrote our manuscript. The revised manuscript is significantly improved and more accessible to non-experts in the field.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary

      This work contains 3 sections. The first section describes how protein domains with SQ motifs can increase the abundance of a lacZ reporter in yeast. The authors call this phenomenon autonomous protein expression-enhancing activity, and this finding is well supported. The authors show evidence that this increase in protein abundance and enzymatic activity is not due to changes in plasmid copy number or mRNA abundance, and that this phenomenon is not affected by mutants in translational quality control. It was not completely clear whether the increased protein abundance is due to increased translation or to increased protein stability.

      In section 2, the authors performed mutagenesis of three N-terminal domains to study how protein sequence changes protein stability and enzymatic activity of the fusions. These data are very interesting, but this section needs more interpretation. It is not clear if the effect is due to the number of S/T/Q/N amino acids or due to the number of phosphorylation sites.

      In section 3, the authors undertake an extensive computational analysis of amino acid runs in 27 species. Many aspects of this section are fascinating to an expert reader. They identify regions with poly-X tracks. These data were not normalized correctly: I think that a null expectation for how often poly-X track occur should be built for each species based on the underlying prevalence of amino acids in that species. As a result, I believe that the claim is not well supported by the data.

      Strengths

      This work is about an interesting topic and contains stimulating bioinformatics analysis. The first two sections, where the authors investigate how S/T/Q/N abundance modulates protein expression level, is well supported by the data. The bioinformatics analysis of Q abundance in ciliate proteomes is fascinating. There are some ciliates that have repurposed stop codons to code for Q. The authors find that in these proteomes, Q-runs are greatly expanded. They offer interesting speculations on how this expansion might impact protein function.

      Weakness

      At this time, the manuscript is disorganized and difficult to read. An expert in the field, who will not be distracted by the disorganization, will find some very interesting results included. In particular, the order of the introduction does not match the rest of the paper.

      In the first and second sections, where the authors investigate how S/T/Q/N abundance modulates protein expression levels, it is unclear if the effect is due to the number of phosphorylation sites or the number of S/T/Q/N residues.

      There are three reasons why the number of phosphorylation sites in the Q-rich motifs is not relevant to their autonomous protein expression-enhancing (PEE) activities:

      First, we have reported previously that phosphorylation-defective Rad51-NTD (Rad51-3SA) and wild-type Rad51-NTD exhibit similar autonomous PEE activity. Mec1/Tel1-dependent phosphorylation of Rad51-NTD antagonizes the proteasomal degradation pathway, increasing the half-life of Rad51 from ∼30 min to ≥180 min (1). (page 1, lines 11-14)

      Second, in our preprint manuscript, we have already shown that phosphorylation-defective Rad53-SCD1 (Rad51-SCD1-5STA) also exhibits autonomous PEE activity similar to that of wild-type Rad53-SCD (Figure 2D, Figure 4A and Figure 4C). We have highlighted this point in our revised manuscript (page 9, lines 19-21).

      Third, as revealed by the results of Figure 4, it is the percentages, and not the numbers, of S/T/Q/N residues that are correlated with the PEE activities of Q-rich motifs.

      The authors also do not discuss if the N-end rule for protein stability applies to the lacZ reporter or the fusion proteins.

      The autonomous PEE function of S/T/Q-rich NTDs is unlikely to be relevant to the N-end rule. The N-end rule links the in vivo half-life of a protein to the identity of its N-terminal residues. In S. cerevisiae, the N-end rule operates as part of the ubiquitin system and comprises two pathways. First, the Arg/N-end rule pathway, involving a single N-terminal amidohydrolase Nta1, mediates deamidation of N-terminal asparagine (N) and glutamine (Q) into aspartate (D) and glutamate (E), which in turn are arginylated by a single Ate1 R-transferase, generating the Arg/N degron. N-terminal R and other primary degrons are recognized by a single N-recognin Ubr1 in concert with ubiquitin-conjugating Ubc2/Rad6. Ubr1 can also recognize several other N-terminal residues, including lysine (K), histidine (H), phenylalanine (F), tryptophan (W), leucine (L) and isoleucine (I) (68-70). Second, the Ac/N-end rule pathway targets proteins containing N-terminally acetylated (Ac) residues. Prior to acetylation, the first amino acid methionine (M) is catalytically removed by Met-aminopeptidases (MetAPs), unless a residue at position 2 is non-permissive (too large) for MetAPs. If a retained N-terminal M or otherwise a valine (V), cysteine (C), alanine (A), serine (S) or threonine (T) residue is followed by residues that allow N-terminal acetylation, the proteins containing these AcN degrons are targeted for ubiquitylation and proteasome-mediated degradation by the Doa10 E3 ligase (71).

      The PEE activities of these S/T/Q-rich domains are unlikely to arise from counteracting the N-end rule for two reasons. First, the first two amino acid residues of Rad51-NTD, Hop1-SCD, Rad53-SCD1, Sup35-PND, Rad51-ΔN, and LacZ-NVH are MS, ME, ME, MS, ME, and MI, respectively, where M is methionine, S is serine, E is glutamic acid and I is isoleucine. Second, Sml1-NTD behaves similarly to these N-terminal fusion tags, despite its methionine and glutamine (MQ) amino acid signature at the N-terminus. (Page 12, line 3 to page 13, line 2)

      The most interesting part of the paper is an exploration of S/T/Q/N-rich regions and other repetitive AA runs in 27 proteomes, particularly ciliates. However, this analysis is missing a critical control that makes it nearly impossible to evaluate the importance of the findings. The authors find the abundance of different amino acid runs in various proteomes. They also report the background abundance of each amino acid. They do not use this background abundance to normalize the runs of amino acids to create a null expectation from each proteome. For example, it has been clear for some time (Ruff, 2017; Ruff et al., 2016) that Drosophila contains a very high background of Q's in the proteome and it is necessary to control for this background abundance when finding runs of Q's.

      We apologize for not explaining sufficiently well the topic eliciting this reviewer’s concern in our preprint manuscript. In the second paragraph of page 14, we cite six references to highlight that SCDs are overrepresented in yeast and human proteins involved in several biological processes (5, 43) and that polyX prevalence differs among species (79-82).

      We will cite a reference by Kiersten M. Ruff in our revised manuscript (38).

      K. M. Ruff, J. B. Warner, A. Posey and P. S. Tan (2017) Polyglutamine length dependent structural properties and phase behavior of huntingtin exon1. Biophysical Journal 112, 511a.

      The authors could easily address this problem with the data and analysis they have already collected. However, at this time, without this normalization, I am hesitant to trust the lists of proteins with long runs of amino acid and the ensuing GO enrichment analysis. Ruff KM. 2017. Washington University in St.

      Ruff KM, Holehouse AS, Richardson MGO, Pappu RV. 2016. Proteomic and Biophysical Analysis of Polar Tracts. Biophys J 110:556a.

      We thank Reviewer #1 for this helpful suggestion and now address this issue by means of a different approach described below.

      Based on a previous study (43), we applied seven different thresholds to seek both short and long, as well as pure and impure, polyX strings in 20 different representative near-complete proteomes, including 4X (4/4), 5X (4/5-5/5), 6X (4/6-6/6), 7X (4/7-7/7), 8-10X (≥50%X), 11-10X (≥50%X) and ≥21X (≥50%X).

      To normalize the runs of amino acids and create a null expectation from each proteome, we determined the ratios of the overall number of X residues for each of the seven polyX motifs relative to those in the entire proteome of each species, respectively. The results of four different polyX motifs are shown in our revised manuscript, i.e., polyQ (Figure 7), polyN (Figure 8), polyS (Figure 9) and polyT (Figure 10). Thus, polyX prevalence differs among species and the overall X contents of polyX motifs often but not always correlate with the X usage frequency in entire proteomes (43).

      Most importantly, our results reveal that, compared to Stentor coeruleus or several non-ciliate eukaryotic organisms (e.g., Plasmodium falciparum, Caenorhabditis elegans, Danio rerio, Mus musculus and Homo sapiens), the five ciliates with reassigned TAAQ and TAGQ codons not only have higher Q usage frequencies, but also more polyQ motifs in their proteomes (Figure 7). In contrast, polyQ motifs prevail in Candida albicans, Candida tropicalis, Dictyostelium discoideum, Chlamydomonas reinhardtii, Drosophila melanogaster and Aedes aegypti, though the Q usage frequencies in their entire proteomes are not significantly higher than those of other eukaryotes (Figure 1). Due to their higher N usage frequencies, Dictyostelium discoideum, Plasmodium falciparum and Pseudocohnilembus persalinus have more polyN motifs than the other 23 eukaryotes we examined here (Figure 8). Generally speaking, all 26 eukaryotes we assessed have similar S usage frequencies and percentages of S contents in polyS motifs (Figure 9). Among these 26 eukaryotes, Dictyostelium discoideum possesses many more polyT motifs, though its T usage frequency is similar to that of the other 25 eukaryotes (Figure 10).

      In conclusion, these new normalized results confirm that the reassignment of stop codons to Q indeed results in both higher Q usage frequencies and more polyQ motifs in ciliates.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study seeks to understand the connection between protein sequence and function in disordered regions enriched in polar amino acids (specifically Q, N, S and T). While the authors suggest that specific motifs facilitate protein-enhancing activities, their findings are correlative, and the evidence is incomplete. Similarly, the authors propose that the re-assignment of stop codons to glutamine-encoding codons underlies the greater user of glutamine in a subset of ciliates, but again, the conclusions here are, at best, correlative. The authors perform extensive bioinformatic analysis, with detailed (albeit somewhat ad hoc) discussion on a number of proteins. Overall, the results presented here are interesting, but are unable to exclude competing hypotheses.

      Strengths:

      Following up on previous work, the authors wish to uncover a mechanism associated with poly-Q and SCD motifs explaining proposed protein expression-enhancing activities. They note that these motifs often occur IDRs and hypothesize that structural plasticity could be capitalized upon as a mechanism of diversification in evolution. To investigate this further, they employ bioinformatics to investigate the sequence features of proteomes of 27 eukaryotes. They deepen their sequence space exploration uncovering sub-phylum-specific features associated with species in which a stop-codon substitution has occurred. The authors propose this stop-codon substitution underlies an expansion of ploy-Q repeats and increased glutamine distribution.

      Weaknesses:

      The preprint provides extensive, detailed, and entirely unnecessary background information throughout, hampering reading and making it difficult to understand the ideas being proposed.

      The introduction provides a large amount of detailed background that appears entirely irrelevant for the paper. Many places detailed discussions on specific proteins that are likely of interest to the authors occur, yet without context, this does not enhance the paper for the reader.

      The paper uses many unnecessary, new, or redefined acronyms which makes reading difficult. As examples:

      1) Prion forming domains (PFDs). Do the authors mean prion-like domains (PLDs), an established term with an empirical definition from the PLAAC algorithm? If yes, they should say this. If not, they must define what a prion-forming domain is formally.

      The N-terminal domain (1-123 amino acids) of S. cerevisiae Sup35 was already referred to as a “prion forming domain (PFD)” in 2006 (48). Since then, PFD has also been employed as an acronym in other yeast prion papers (Cox, B.S. et al. 2007; Toombs, T. et al. 2011).

      B. S. Cox, L. Byrne, M. F., Tuite, Protein Stability. Prion 1, 170-178 (2007). J. A. Toombs, N. M. Liss, K. R. Cobble, Z. Ben-Musa, E. D. Ross, [PSI+] maintenance is dependent on the composition, not primary sequence, of the oligopeptide repeat domain. PLoS One 6, e21953 (2011).

      2) SCD is already an acronym in the IDP field (meaning sequence charge decoration) - the authors should avoid this as their chosen acronym for Serine(S) / threonine (T)-glutamine (Q) cluster domains. Moreover, do we really need another acronym here (we do not).

      SCD was first used in 2005 as an acronym for the Serine (S)/threonine (T)-glutamine (Q) cluster domain in the DNA damage checkpoint field (4). Almost a decade later, SCD became an acronym for “sequence charge decoration” (Sawle, L. et al. 2015; Firman, T. et al. 2018).

      L. Sawle and K, Ghosh, A theoretical method to compute sequence dependent configurational properties in charged polymers and proteins. J. Chem Phys. 143, 085101(2015).

      T. Firman and Ghosh, K. Sequence charge decoration dictates coil-globule transition in intrinsically disordered proteins. J. Chem Phys. 148, 123305 (2018).

      3) Protein expression-enhancing (PEE) - just say expression-enhancing, there is no need for an acronym here.

      Thank you. Since we have shown that the addition of Q-rich motifs to LacZ affects protein expression rather than transcription, we think it is better to use the “PEE” acronym.

      The results suggest autonomous protein expression-enhancing activities of regions of multiple proteins containing Q-rich and SCD motifs. Their definition of expression-enhancing activities is vague and the evidence they provide to support the claim is weak. While their previous work may support their claim with more evidence, it should be explained in more detail. The assay they choose is a fusion reporter measuring beta-galactosidase activity and tracking expression levels. Given the presented data they have shown that they can drive the expression of their reporters and that beta gal remains active, in addition to the increase in expression of fusion reporter during the stress response. They have not detailed what their control and mock treatment is, which makes complete understanding of their experimental approach difficult. Furthermore, their nuclear localization signal on the tag could be influencing the degradation kinetics or sequestering the reporter, leading to its accumulation and the appearance of enhanced expression. Their evidence refuting ubiquitin-mediated degradation does not have a convincing control.

      Although this reviewer’s concern regarding our use of a nuclear localization signal on the tag is understandable, we are confident that this signal does not bias our findings for two reasons. First, the negative control LacZ-NV also possesses the same nuclear localization signal (Figure 1A, lane 2). Second, another fusion target, Rad51-ΔN, does not harbor the NVH tag (Figure 1D, lanes 3-4). Compared to wild-type Rad51, Rad51-ΔN is highly labile. In our previous study, removal of the NTD from Rad51 reduced by ~97% the protein levels of corresponding Rad51-ΔN proteins relative to wild-type (1).

      Based on the experimental results, the authors then go on to perform bioinformatic analysis of SCD proteins and polyX proteins. Unfortunately, there is no clear hypothesis for what is being tested; there is a vague sense of investigating polyX/SCD regions, but I did not find the connection between the first and section compelling (especially given polar-rich regions have been shown to engage in many different functions). As such, this bioinformatic analysis largely presents as many lists of percentages without any meaningful interpretation. The bioinformatics analysis lacks any kind of rigorous statistical tests, making it difficult to evaluate the conclusions drawn. The methods section is severely lacking. Specifically, many of the methods require the reader to read many other papers. While referencing prior work is of course, important, the authors should ensure the methods in this paper provide the details needed to allow a reader to evaluate the work being presented. As it stands, this is not the case.

      Thank you. As described in detail below, we have now performed rigorous statistical testing using the GofuncR package (Figure 11, Figure 12 and DS7-DS32).

      Overall, my major concern with this work is that the authors make two central claims in this paper (as per the Discussion). The authors claim that Q-rich motifs enhance protein expression. The implication here is that Q-rich motif IDRs are special, but this is not tested. As such, they cannot exclude the competing hypothesis ("N-terminal disordered regions enhance expression").

      In fact, “N-terminal disordered regions enhance expression” exactly summarizes our hypothesis.

      On pages 12-13 and Figure 4 of our preprint manuscript, we explained our hypothesis in the paragraph entitled “The relationship between PEE function, amino acid contents, and structural flexibility”.

      The authors also do not explore the possibility that this effect is in part/entirely driven by mRNA-level effects (see Verma Na Comms 2019).

      As pointed out by the first reviewer, we present evidence that the increase in protein abundance and enzymatic activity is not due to changes in plasmid copy number or mRNA abundance (Figure 2), and that this phenomenon is not affected in translational quality control mutants (Figure 3).

      As such, while these observations are interesting, they feel preliminary and, in my opinion, cannot be used to draw hard conclusions on how N-terminal IDR sequence features influence protein expression. This does not mean the authors are necessarily wrong, but from the data presented here, I do not believe strong conclusions can be drawn. That re-assignment of stop codons to Q increases proteome-wide Q usage. I was unable to understand what result led the authors to this conclusion.

      My reading of the results is that a subset of ciliates has re-assigned UAA and UAG from the stop codon to Q. Those ciliates have more polyQ-containing proteins. However, they also have more polyN-containing proteins and proteins enriched in S/T-Q clusters. Surely if this were a stop-codon-dependent effect, we'd ONLY see an enhancement in Q-richness, not a corresponding enhancement in all polar-rich IDR frequencies? It seems the better working hypothesis is that free-floating climate proteomes are enriched in polar amino acids compared to sessile ciliates.

      We thank this reviewer for raising this point, however her/his comments are not supported by the results in Figure 7.

      Regardless, the absence of any kind of statistical analysis makes it hard to draw strong conclusions here.

      We apologize for not explaining more clearly the results of Tables 5-7 in our preprint manuscript.

      To address the concerns about our GO enrichment analysis by both reviewers, we have now performed rigorous statistical testing for SCD and polyQ protein overrepresentation using the GOfuncR package (https://bioconductor.org/packages/release/bioc/html/GOfuncR.html). GOfuncR is an R package program that conducts standard candidate vs. background enrichment analysis by means of the hypergeometric test. We then adjusted the raw p-values according to the Family-wise error rate (FWER). The same method had been applied to GO enrichment analysis of human genomes (89).

      The results presented in Figure 11 and Figure 12 (DS7-DS32) support our hypothesis that Q-rich motifs prevail in proteins involved in specialized biological processes, including Saccharomyces cerevisiae RNA-mediated transposition, Candida albicans filamentous growth, peptidyl-glutamic acid modification in ciliates with reassigned stop codons (TAAQ and TAGQ), Tetrahymena thermophila xylan catabolism, Dictyostelium discoideum sexual reproduction, Plasmodium falciparum infection, as well as the nervous systems of Drosophila melanogaster, Mus musculus, and Homo sapiens (78). In contrast, peptidyl-glutamic acid modification and microtubule-based movement are not overrepresented with Q-rich proteins in Stentor coeruleus, a ciliate with standard stop codons.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Please note that you control which revisions to undertake from the public reviews and recommendations for the authors.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The order of paragraphs in the introduction was very difficult to follow. Each paragraph was clear and easy to understand, but the order of paragraphs did not make sense to this reader. The order of events in the abstract matches the order of events in the results section. However, the order of paragraphs in the introduction is completely different and this was very confusing. This disordered list of facts might make sense to an expert reader but makes it hard for a non-expert reader to understand.

      Apologies. We endeavored to improve the flow of our revised manuscript to make it more readable.

      The section beginning on pg 12 focused on figures 4 and 5 was very interesting and highly promising. However, it was initially hard for me to tell from the main text what the experiment was. Please add to the text an explanation of the experiment, because it is hard to figure out what was going on from the figures alone. Figure 4 is fantastic, but would be improved by adding error bars and scaling the x-axis to be the same in panels B,C,D.

      Thank you for this recommendation. We have now scaled both the x-axis and y-axis equivalently in panels B, C and D of Figure 4. Error bars are too small to be included.

      It is hard to tell if the key variable is the number of S/T/Q/N residues or the number of phosphosites. I think a good control would be to add a regression against the number of putative phosphosites. The sequences are well designed. I loved this part but as a reader, I need more interpretation about why it matters and how it explains the PEE.

      As described above, we have shown that the number of phosphorylation sites in the Q-rich motifs is not relevant to their autonomous protein expression-enhancing (PEE) activities.

      I believe that the prevalence of polyX runs is not meaningful without normalizing for the background abundance of each amino acid. The proteome-wide abundance and the assumption that amino acids occur independently can be used to form a baseline expectation for which runs are longer than expected by chance. I think Figures 6 and 7 should go into the supplement and be replaced in the main text with a figure where Figure 6 is normalized by Figure 7. For example in P. falciparum, there are many N-runs (Figure 6), but the proteome has the highest fraction of N’s (Figure 7).

      Thank you for these suggestions. The three figures in our preprint manuscript (Figures 6-8) have been moved into the supplementary information (Figures S1-S3). For normalization, we have provided four new figures (Figures 7-10) in our revised manuscript.

      The analysis of ciliate proteomes was fascinating. I am particularly interested in the GO enrichment for “peptidyl-glutamic acid modification” (pg 20) because these enzymes might be modifying some of Q’s in the Q-runs. I might be wrong about this idea or confused about the chemistry. Do these ciliates live in Q-rich environments? Or nitrogen rich environments?

      Polymeric modifications (polymodifications) are a hallmark of C-terminal tubulin tails, whereas secondary peptide chains of glutamic acids (polyglutamylation) and glycines (polyglycylation) are catalyzed from the γ-carboxyl group of primary chain glutamic acids. It is not clear if these enzymes can modify some of the Q’s in the Q-runs.

      To our knowledge, ciliates are abundant in almost every liquid water environment, i.e., oceans/seas, marine sediments, lakes, ponds, and rivers, and even soils.

      I think you should include more discussion about how the codons that code for Q’s are prone to slippage during DNA replication, and thus many Q-runs are unstable and expand (e.g. Huntington’s Disease). The end of pg 24 or pg 25 would be good places.

      We thank the reviewer for these comments.

      PolyQ motifs have a particular length-dependent codon usage that relates to strand slippage in CAG/CTG trinucleotide repeat regions during DNA replication. In most organisms having standard genetic codons, Q is encoded by CAGQ and CAAQ. Here, we have determined and compared proteome-wide Q contents, as well as the CAGQ usage frequencies (i.e., the ratio between CAGQ and the sum of CAGQ, CAGQ, TAAQ, and TAGQ).

      Our results reveal that the likelihood of forming long CAG/CTG trinucleotide repeats are higher in five eukaryotes due to their higher CAGQ usage frequencies, including Drosophila melanogaster (86.6% Q), Danio rerio (74.0% Q), Mus musculus (74.0% Q), Homo sapiens (73.5% Q), and Chlamydomonas reinhardtii (87.3% Q) (orange background, Table 2). In contrast, another five eukaryotes that possess high numbers of polyQ motifs (i.e., Dictyostelium discoideum, Candida albicans, Candida tropicalis, Plasmodium falciparum and Stentor coeruleus) (Figure 1) utilize more CAAQ (96.2%, 84.6%, 84.5%, 86.7% and 75.7%) than CAAQ (3.8%, 15.4%, 15.5%, 13.3% and 24.3%), respectively, to avoid the formation of long CAG/CTG trinucleotide repeats (green background, Table 2). Similarly, all five ciliates with reassigned stop codons (TAAQ and TAGQ) have low CAGQ usage frequencies (i.e., from 3.8% Q in Pseudocohnilembus persalinus to 12.6% Q in Oxytricha trifallax) (red font, Table 2). Accordingly, the CAG-slippage mechanism might operate more frequently in Chlamydomonas reinhardtii, Drosophila melanogaster, Danio rerio, Mus musculus and Homo sapiens than in Dictyostelium discoideum, Candida albicans, Candida tropicalis, Plasmodium falciparum, Stentor coeruleus and the five ciliates with reassigned stop codons (TAAQ and TAGQ).

      Author response table 1.

      Usage frequencies of TAA, TAG, TAAQ, TAGQ, CAAQ and CAGQ codons in the entire proteomes of 20 different organisms.

      Pg 7, paragraph 2 has no direction. Please add the conclusion of the paragraph to the first sentence.

      This paragraph has been moved to the “Introduction” section” of the revised manuscript.

      Pg 8, I suggest only mentioning the PFDs used in the experiments. The rest are distracting.

      We have addressed this concern above.

      Pg 12. Please revise the "The relationship...." text to explain the experiment.

      We apologize for not explaining this topic sufficiently well in our preprint manuscript.

      SCDs are often structurally flexible sequences (4) or even IDRs. Using IUPred2A (https://iupred2a.elte.hu/plot_new), a web-server for identifying disordered protein regions (88), we found that Rad51-NTD (1-66 a.a.) (1), Rad53-SCD1 (1-29 a.a.) and Sup35-NPD (1-39 a.a.) are highly structurally flexible. Since a high content of serine (S), threonine (T), glutamine (Q), asparanine (N) is a common feature of IDRs (17-20), we applied alanine scanning mutagenesis approach to reduce the percentages of S, T, Q or N in Rad51-NTD, Rad53-SCD1 or Sup35-NPD, respectively. As shown in Figure 4 and Figure 5, there is a very strong positive relationship between STQ and STQN amino acid percentages and β-galactosidase activities. (Page 13, lines 5-10)

      Pg 13, first full paragraph, "Futionally, IDRs..." I think this paragraph belongs in the Discussion.

      This paragraph is now in the “Introduction” section (Page 5, Lines 11-15).

      Pg. 15, I think the order of paragraphs should be swapped.

      These paragraphs have been removed or rewritten in the “Introduction section” of our revised manuscript.

      Pg 17 (and other parts) I found the lists of numbers and percentages hard to read and I think you should refer readers to the tables.

      Thank you. In the revised manuscript, we have avoided using lists of numbers and percentages, unless we feel they are absolutely essential.

      Pg. 19 please add more interpretation to the last paragraph. It is very cool but I need help understanding the result. Are these proteins diverging rapidly? Perhaps this is a place to include the idea of codon slippage during DNA replication.

      Thank you. The new results in Table 2 indicate that the CAG-slippage mechanism is unlikely to operate in ciliates with reassigned stop codons (TAAQ and TAGQ).

      Pg 24. "Based on our findings from this study, we suggest that Q-rich motifs are useful toolkits for generating novel diversity during protein evolution, including by enabling greater protein expression, protein-protein interactions, posttranslational modifications, increased solubility, and tunable stability, among other important traits." This idea needs to be cited. Keith Dunker has written extensively about this idea as have others. Perhaps also discuss why Poly Q rich regions are different from other IDRs and different from other IDRs that phase-separate.

      Agreed, we have cited two of Keith Dunker’s papers in our revised manuscript (73, 74).

      Minor notes:

      Please define Borg genomes (pg 25).

      Borgs are long extrachromosomal DNA sequences in methane-oxidizing Methanoperedens archaea, which display the potential to augment methane oxidation (101). They are now described in our revised manuscript. (Page 15, lines 12-14)

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors dance around disorder but never really quantify or show data. This seems like a strange blindspot.

      We apologize for not explaining this topic sufficiently well in our preprint manuscript. We have endeavored to do so in our revised manuscript.

      The authors claim the expression enhancement is "autonomous," but they have not ruled things out that would make it not autonomous.

      Evidence of the “autonomous” nature of expression enhancement is presented in Figure 1, Figure 4, and Figure 5 of the preprint manuscript.

      Recommendations for improving the writing and presentation.

      The title does not recapitulate the entire body of work. The first 5 figures are not represented by the title in any way, and indeed, I have serious misgivings as to whether the conclusion stated in the title is supported by the work. I would strongly suggest the authors change the title.

      Figure 2 could be supplemental.

      Thank you. We think it is important to keep Figure 2 in the text.

      Figures 4 and 5 are not discussed much or particularly well.

      This reviewer’s opinion of Figure 4 and Figure 5 is in stark contrast to those of the first reviewer.

      The introduction, while very thorough, takes away from the main findings of the paper. It is more suited to a review and not a tailored set of minimal information necessary to set up the question and findings of the paper. The question that the authors are after is also not very clear.

      Thank you. The entire “Introduction” section has been extensively rewritten in the revised manuscript.

      Schematics of their fusion constructs and changes to the sequence would be nice, even if supplemental.

      Schematics of the fusion constructs are provided in Figure 1A.

      The methods section should be substantially expanded.

      The method section in the revised manuscript has been rewritten and expanded. The six Javascript programs used in this work are listed in Table S4.

      The text is not always suited to the general audience and readership of eLife.

      We have now rewritten parts of our manuscript to make it more accessible to the broad readership of eLife.

      In some cases, section headers really don't match what is presented, or there is no evidence to back the claim.

      The section headers in the revised manuscript have been corrected.

      A lot of the listed results in the back half of the paper could be a supplemental table, listing %s in a paragraph (several of them in a row) is never nice

      Acknowledged. In the revised manuscript, we have removed almost all sentences listing %s.

      Minor corrections to the text and figures.

      There is a reference to table 1 multiple times, and it seems that there is a missing table. The current table 1 does not seem to be the same table referred to in some places throughout the text.

      Apologies for this mistake, which we have now corrected in our revised manuscript.

      In some places its not clear where new work is and where previous work is mentioned. It would help if the authors clearly stated "In previous work...."

      Acknowledged. We have corrected this oversight in our revised manuscript.

      Not all strains are listed in the strain table (KO's in figure 3 are not included)

      Apologies, we have now corrected Table S2, as suggested by this reviewer.

      Author response table 2.

      S. cerevisiae strains used in this study

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This reviewed preprint is a bit of Frankenstein monster, as it crams together three quite different sets of data. It is essentially three papers combined into one-one paper focused on the role of CIB2/CIB3 in VHCs, one on the role of CIB2/CIB3 in zebrafish, and one on structural modeling of a CIB2/3 and TMC1/2 complex. The authors try to combine the three parts with the overarching theme of demonstrating that CIB2/3 play a functionally conserved role across species and hair cell types, but given the previous work on these proteins, especially Liang et al. (2021) and Wang et al. (2023), this argument doesn't work very well. My sense is that the way the manuscript is written now, the sum is less than the individual parts, and the authors should consider whether the work is better split into three separate papers. 

      We appreciate the frank evaluation of our work and point out that combining structural with functional data from mouse and zebrafish offers a comprehensive view of the role played by TMC1/TMC2 and CIB2/3 complexes in hair-cell mechanotransduction. We believe that readers will benefit from this comprehensive analyses.

      The most important shortcoming is the novelty of the work presented here. In line 89 of the introduction the authors state "However, whether CIB2/3 can function and interact with TMC1/2 proteins across sensory organs, hair-cell types, and species is still unclear." They make a similar statement in the first sentence of the discussion and generally use this claim throughout the paper as motivation for why they performed the experiments. Given the data presented in the Liang et al. (2021) and Wang et al. (2023 papers), however, this statement is not well supported. Those papers clearly demonstrate a role for CIB2/CIB3 in auditory and vestibular cells in mice. Moreover, there is also data in Riazuddin et al. (2012) paper that demonstrates the importance of CIB2 in zebrafish and Drosophila. I think the authors are really stretching to describe the data in the manuscript as novel. Conceptually, it reads more as solidifying knowledge that was already sketched out in the field in past studies. 

      We note that work on mouse and fish CIB knockouts in our laboratories started over a decade ago and that our discoveries are contemporary to those recently presented by Liang et al., 2021 and Wang et al., 2023, which we acknowledge, cite, and give credit as appropriate. We also note that work on fish knockouts and on fish Cib3 is completely novel. Nevertheless, the abstract text “Whether these interactions are functionally relevant across mechanosensory organs and vertebrate species is unclear” has been replaced by “These interactions have been proposed to be functionally relevant across mechanosensory organs and vertebrate species.”; and the introduction text “However, whether CIB2/3 can function and interact with TMC1/2 proteins across sensory organs, hair-cell types, and species is still unclear” has been replaced by “However, additional evidence showing that CIB2/3 can function and interact with TMC1/2 proteins across sensory organs, hair-cell types, and species is still needed.”. The work by Wang et al., 2023 is immediately discussed after the first sentence in the discussion section and the work by Liang et al., 2021 is also cited in the same paragraph. We believe that changes in abstract and introduction along with other changes outlined below put our work in proper context.

      There is one exception, however, and that is the last part of the manuscript. Here structural studies (AlphaFold 2 modeling, NMR structure determination, and molecular dynamics simulations) bring us closer to the structure of the mammalian TMCs, alone and in complex with the CIB proteins. Moreover, the structural work supports the assignment of the TMC pore to alpha helices 4-7.

      Thanks for the positive evaluation of this work.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The paper 'Complexes of vertebrate TMC1/2 and CIB2/3 proteins 1 form hair-cell mechanotransduction cation channels' by Giese and coworkers is quite an intense reading. The manuscript is packed with data pertaining to very different aspects of MET apparatus function, scales, and events. I have to praise the team that combined molecular genetics, biochemistry, NMR, microscopy, functional physiology, in-vivo tests for vestibulo-ocular reflexes, and other tests for vestibular dysfunction with molecular modeling and simulations. The authors nicely show the way CIBs are associated with TMCs to form functional MET channels. The authors clarify the specificity of associations and elucidate the functional effects of the absence of specific CIBs and their partial redundancy. 

      We appreciate the positive evaluation of our work and agree with the reviewer in that the combination of data obtained using various techniques in vivo and in silico provide a unique view on the role played by CIB2 and CIB3 in hair-cell mechanotransduction. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This study demonstrates that from fish to mammals CIB2/3 is required for hearing, revealing the high degree of conservation of CIB2/3 function in vertebrate sensory hair cells. The modeling data reveal how CIB2/3 may affect the conductance of the TMC1/2 channels that mediate mechanotransduction, which is the process of converting mechanical energy into an electrical signal in sensory receptors. This work will likely impact future studies of how mechanotransduction varies in different hair cell types. 

      One caveat is that the experiments with the mouse mutants are confirmatory in nature with regard to a previous study by Wang et al., and the authors use lower resolution tools in terms of function and morphological changes. Another is that the modeling data is not supported by electrophysiological experiments, however, as mentioned above, future experiments may address this weakness.

      We thank the reviewer for providing positive feedback and for highlighting caveats that can and will be addressed by future experiments.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Lines 100-101. Please temper this statement, as FM1-43 is only a partial proxy for MET. 

      The original text has been modified to: “In contrast to auditory hair cells, we found that the vestibular hair cells in Cib2KO/KO mice apparently have MET. We assessed MET via uptake of FM 1-43 (Figure 1A), a styryl dye that mostly permeates into hair cells through functional MET channels (Meyers et al., 2003), indicating that there may be another CIB protein playing a functionally redundant role.”

      Lines 111-113. These data do not fully match up with the Kawashima et al. (2011) data. Please discuss. 

      We have modified the text to better report the data: “Tmc2 expression increases during development but remains below Tmc1 levels in both type 1 and type 2 hair cells upon maturation (Figure 1C).”

      Lines 125-126. The comparison in 2A-B is not described correctly for the control. The strain displayed is Cib2^+/+;Cib3^KO/KO (not wild-type). Show the Cib2^+/+;Cib3^+/+ if you are going to refer to it (and is this truly Cib2^+/+;Cib3^+/+ from a cross or just the background strain?). 

      Thanks for pointing this out. To avoid confusion, we have revised the sentence as follow: “We first characterized hearing function in Cib3KO/KO and control littermate mice at P16 by measuring auditory-evoked brainstem responses (ABRs). Normal ABR waveforms and thresholds were observed in Cib3KO/KO indicating normal hearing.”  

      Lines 137-140. Did you expect anything different? This is a trivial result, given the profound loss of hearing in the Cib2^KO/KO mice. 

      We did not expect anything different and have deleted the sentence: “Furthermore, endogenous CIB3 is unable to compensate for CIB2 loss in the auditory hair cells, perhaps due to extremely low expression level of CIB3 in these cells and the lack of compensatory overexpression of CIB3 in the cochlea of Cib2KO/KO mice (Giese et al., 2017).”

      Lines 194-196. But what about Cib2^KO/KO; Isn't the conclusion that the vestibular system needs either CIB2 or CIB3? 

      Yes, either CIB2 or CIB3 can maintain normal vestibular function. A prior study by Michel et al., 2017, has evaluated and reported intact vestibular function in Cib2KO/KO mice.

      Lines 212-214. Yes. This is a stronger conclusion than the one earlier. 

      We have revised the sentence as follow: “Taken together, these results support compulsory but functionally redundant roles for CIB2 and CIB3 in the vestibular hair cell MET complex.”

      Lines 265-267. I'm not sure that I would state this conclusion here given that you then argue against it in the next paragraph. 

      We have modified this statement to make the conclusions clearer and more consistent between the two paragraphs. The modified text reads: “Thus, taken together the results of our FM 1-43 labeling analysis are consistent with a requirement for both Cib2 and Cib3 to ensure normal MET in all lateral-line hair cells.”

      Line 277. I would be more precise and say something like "and sufficiently fewer hair cells responded to mechanical stimuli and admitted Ca2+..." 

      We have modified the text as requested: “We quantified the number of hair bundles per neuromast with mechanosensitive Ca2+ responses, and found that compared to controls, significantly fewer cells were mechanosensitive in cib2 and cib2;cib3 mutants (Figure 5-figure supplement 2A, control: 92.2 ± 2.5; cib2: 49.9 ± 5.8, cib2;cib3: 19.0 ± 6.6, p > 0.0001).”

      Line 278 and elsewhere. It doesn't make sense to have three significant digits in the error. I would say either "92.2 {plus minus} 2.5" or "92 {plus minus} 2." 

      Edited as requested.

      Lines 357-358. Move the reference to the figure to the previous sentence, leaving the "(Liang et al., 2021) juxtaposed to its reference (crystal structure). Otherwise, the reader will look for crystal structures in Figure 7-figure supplements 1-5. 

      Text has been edited as requested: “The intracellular domain linking helices a2 and a3, denoted here as IL1, adopts a helix-loop-helix with the two helices running parallel to each other and differing in length (Figure 7-figure supplements 1-5). This is the same fold observed in its crystal structure in complex with CIB3 (Liang et al., 2021), which validated the modeling approach.”

      Line 450. What other ions were present besides K+? I assume Cl- or some other anion.

      What about Na+ or Ca+? It's hard to evaluate this sentence without that information. 

      Systems have 150 mM KCl and CIB-bound Ca2+ when indicated (no Na+ or free Ca2+). This is now pointed out when the models are described first: “These models were embedded in either pure POPC or stereocilia-like mixed composition bilayers and solvated (150 mM KCl) to …”. The sentence mentioned by the reviewer has also been modified: “In systems with pure POPC bilayers we observed permeation of K+ in either one or both pores of the TMC1 dimer, with or without CIB2 or CIB3 and with or without bound Ca2+, despite the presence of Cl- (150 mM KCl).”  

      Lines 470-472. These results suggest that the maximum conductance of TMC1 > TMC2. How do these results compare with the Holt and Fettiplace data? 

      Thanks for pointing this out. A comparison would be appropriate and has been added: “We also speculate that this is due to TMC2 having an intrinsic lower singlechannel conductance than TMC1, as has been suggested by some experiments (Kim et al., 2013), but not others (Pan et al., 2013). It is also possible that our TMC2 model is not in a fully open conformation, which can only be reached upon mechanical stimulation.”

      Line 563. Yes, the simulations only allow you to say that the interaction is stable for at least microseconds. However, the gel filtration experiments suggest that the interaction is stable for much longer. Please comment. 

      Thank you for pointing this out. We agree with this statement and modified the text accordingly: “Simulations of these models indicate that there is some potential preferential binding of TMC1 and TMC2 to CIB3 over CIB2 (predicted from BSA) and that TMC + CIB interactions are stable and last for microseconds, with biochemical and NMR experiments showing that these interactions are stable at even longer timescales.”  

      Figure 3. Please use consistent (and sufficiently large to be readable) font size. 

      Figure has been updated.

      Figure 4. Magnification is too low to say much about bundle structure.

      The reviewer is right – we cannot evaluate bundle structure with the images shown in Figure 4. Our goal was to determine if the vestibular hair cells had been degenerated in the absence of CIB2/3 and Figure 4 panel A data reveals intact hair cells. We changed the text “High-resolution confocal imaging did not reveal any obvious vestibular hair cell loss and hair bundles looked indistinguishable from control in Cib2KO/KO;Cib3KO/KO mice (Figure 4A).” to “High-resolution confocal imaging did not reveal any obvious vestibular hair cell loss in Cib2KO/KO;Cib3KO/KO mice (Figure 4A).” to avoid any confusions.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Some datasets presented here can be published separately. Although I understand that the field is developing fast and there is no time to sort and fit the data by category or scale, everything needs to be published together and quickly.

      I have no real questions about the data on the functional association of CIB2 and 3 with TMC 1 and 2 in mouse hair cells as well as association preferences between their homologs in zebrafish. The authors have shown a clear differentiation of association preferences for CIB2 and CIB3 and the ability to substitute for each other in cochlear and vestibular hair cells. The importance of CIB2 for hearing and CIB3 for vestibular function is well documented. The absence of the startle response in cib2/3 negative zebrafish is a slight variation from what was observed in mice where CIB2 is sufficient for hearing. The data look very solid and show an overall structural and functional conservation of these complexes throughout vertebrates. The presented models look plausible, but of course, there is a chance that they will be corrected/improved in the future. 

      Thanks for appreciating the significance of our study.

      Regarding NMR, there is indeed a large number of TROSY peaks of uniformly labeled CIB2 undergoing shifts with sequential additions of the loop and the N-terminal TMC peptides. Something is going on. The authors may consider a special publication on this topic when at least partial peak assignments are established. 

      We are continuing our NMR studies of CIB and TMC interactions and plan to have follow up studies. 

      After reading the manuscript, I may suggest four topics for additional discussion. 

      (1) Maybe it is obvious for people working in the field, but for the general reader, the simulations performed with and without Ca2+ come out of the blue, with no explanation. The authors did not mention clearly that CIB proteins have at least two functional EF-hand (EF-hand-like) motifs that likely bind Ca2+ and thereby modulate the MET channel. 

      This is a good point. We have modified the introductory text to include: “CIB2 belongs to a family of four closely related proteins (CIB1-4) that have partial functional redundancy and similar structural domains, with at least two Ca2+/Mg2+-binding EF-hand motifs that are highly conserved for CIB2/3 (Huang et al., 2012).”

      If the data on affinities for Ca2+, as well as Ca2+-dependent propensity for dimerization and association with TMC exist, they should be mentioned for CIB2 and CIB3 and discussed.

      To address this, we have added the following text to the discussion: “How TMC + CIB interactions depend on Ca2+ concentration may have important functional implications for adaptation and hair cell mechanotransduction. Structures of CIB3 and worm CALM-1, a CIB2 homologue, both bind divalent ions via EF-hand motifs proximal to their C-termini (Jeong et al., 2022; Liang et al., 2021). Reports on CIB2 affinities for Ca2+ are inconsistent, with _K_D values that range from 14 µM to 0.5 mM (Blazejczyk et al., 2009; Vallone et al., 2018). Although qualitative pull-down assays done in the presence or the absence of 5 mM CaCl2 suggest that the TMC1 and CIB2 interactions are Ca2+independent (Liang et al., 2021), strength and details of the CIB-TMC-IL1 and CIB-TMCNT contacts might be Ca2+-dependent, especially considering that Ca2+ induces changes that lead to exposure of hydrophobic residues involved in binding (Blazejczyk et al., 2009).”

      Also, it is not clearly mentioned in the figure legends whether the size-exclusion experiments or TROSY NMR were performed in the presence of (saturating) Ca2+ or not. If the presence of Ca2+ is not important, it must be explained.  

      Size exclusion chromatography and NMR experiments were performed in the presence of 3 mM CaCl2. We have indicated this in appropriate figure captions as requested, and also mentioned it in the discussion text: “Interestingly, the behavior of CIB2 and CIB3 in solution (SEC experiments using 3 mM CaCl2) is different in the absence of TMC1-IL1.” and “Moreover, our NMR data (obtained using 3 mM CaCl2) indicates that TMC1-IL1 + CIB2 is unlikely to directly interact with CIB3.”

      (2) Speaking about the conservation of TMC-CIB structure and function, it would be important to compare it to the C. elegans TMC-CALM-1 structures. Is CALM-1, which binds Ca2+ near its C-terminus, homologous or similar to CIBs? 

      This is an important point. To address it, we have added the following text in the discussion: “Remarkably, the AF2 models are also consistent with the architecture of the nematode TMC-1 and CALM-1 complex (Jeong et al., 2022), despite low sequence identity (36% between human TMC1 and worm TMC-1 and 51% between human CIB2 and worm CALM-1). This suggests that the TMC + CIB functional relationship may extend beyond vertebrates.” We also added: “How TMC + CIB interactions depend on Ca2+ concentration may have important functional implications for adaptation and hair cell mechanotransduction. Structures of CIB3 and worm CALM-1, a CIB2 homologue, both bind divalent ions via EF-hand motifs proximal to their C-termini (Jeong et al., 2022; Liang et al., 2021).” 

      Additionally, superposition of CALM-1 (in blue) from the TMC-1 complex structure (PDB code: 7usx; Jeong et al., 2022) with one and our initial human CIB2 AF2 models (in red) show similar folds, notably in the EF-hand motifs of CALM-1 and CIB2 (Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1.

      Superposition of CALM-1 structure (blue; Jeong et al., 2022) and AlphaFold 2 model of CIB2 (red). Calcium ions are shown as green spheres.

      (1) Based on simulations, CIBs stabilize the cytoplasmic surfaces of the dimerized TMCs.

      The double CIB2/3 knock-out, on the other hand, clearly destabilizes the morphology of stereocilia and leads to partial degeneration. One question is whether the tip link in the double null forms normally and whether there is a vestige of MET current in the beginning. The second question is whether the stabilization of the TMC's intracellular surface has a functional meaning. I understand that not complete knock-outs, but rather partial loss-of-function mutants may help answer this question. The reader would be impatient to learn what process most critically depends on the presence of CIBs: channel assembly, activation, conduction, or adaptation. Any thoughts about it? 

      These are all interesting questions, although further investigations would be needed to understand CIB’s role on channel assembly, activation, conduction, and adaption. We have added to the discussion text: “Further studies should help provide a comprehensive view into CIB function in channel assembly, activation, and potentially hair-cell adaption.”

      (2) The authors rely on the permeation of FM dyes as a criterion for normal MET channel formation. What do they know about the permeation path a 600-800 Da hydrophobic dye may travel through? Is it the open (conductive) or non-conductive channel? Do ions and FM dyes permeate simultaneously or can this be a different mode of action for TMCs that relates them to TMEM lipid scramblases? Any insight from simulations?

      We are working on follow-up papers focused on elucidating the permeation mechanisms of aminoglycosides and small molecules (such as FM dyes) through TMCs as well as its potential scramblase activity.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Introduction: 

      The rationale and context for determining whether Cib2 and Cib3 proteins are essential for mechanotransduction in zebrafish hair cells is completely lacking in the introduction. All background information about what is known about the MET complex in sensory hair cells focuses on work done with mouse cochlear hair cells without regard to other species. This is especially surprising as the third author uses zebrafish as an animal model and makes major contributions to this study, addressing the primary question posed in the introduction. Instead, the authors relegate this important information to the results section. Moreover, not mentioning the Jeong 2022 study when discussing the Liang 2021 findings is odd considering that the primary question is centered on CIB2 and TMC1/2 in other species. 

      Thank you for pointing this out. We now discuss and reference relevant background on the MET complex in zebrafish hair cells in the introduction. We added: “In zebrafish, Tmcs, Lhfpl5, Tmie, and Pcdh15 are also essential for sensory transduction, suggesting that these molecules form the core MET complex in all vertebrate hair cells (Chen et al., 2020; Erickson et al., 2019, 2017; Ernest et al., 2000; Gleason et al., 2009; Gopal et al., 2015; Maeda et al., 2017, 2014; Pacentine and Nicolson, 2019; Phillips et al., 2011; Seiler et al., 2004; Söllner et al., 2004).”. We also added: “In zebrafish, knockdown of Cib2 diminishes both the acoustic startle response and mechanosensitive responses of lateral-line hair cells (Riazuddin et al., 2012).”

      Discussion: 

      The claim that mouse vestibular hair cells in the double KO are structurally normal is not well supported by the images in Fig. 4A and is at odds with the findings by Wang et al., 2023. More discussion about the discrepancy of these results (instead of glossing over it) is warranted. The zebrafish image of the hair bundles in the zebrafish cib2/3 double knockout also appear abnormal, i.e. somewhat thinner. These results are consistent with Wang et al., 2023. Is it the case that neither images (mouse and fish) are representative? Unfortunately, the neuromast hair bundles in the double mutant are not shown, so it is difficult to draw a conclusion.

      The reviewer is right – we cannot evaluate mouse hair-cell bundle structure with the images shown in Figure 4. Our goal was to determine if the vestibular hair cells had been degenerated in the absence of CIB2/3 and Figure 4 panel A data reveals intact hair cells. We changed the text “High-resolution confocal imaging did not reveal any obvious vestibular hair cell loss and hair bundles looked indistinguishable from control in Cib2KO/KO;Cib3KO/KO mice (Figure 4A).” to “High-resolution confocal imaging did not reveal any obvious vestibular hair cell loss in Cib2KO/KO;Cib3KO/KO mice (Figure 4A).” to avoid any confusions. In addition, we have changed the discussion as follows: “We demonstrate that vestibular hair cells in mice and zebrafish lacking CIB2 and CIB3 are not degenerated but have no detectable MET, assessed via FM 1-43 dye uptake, at time points when MET function is well developed in wild-type hair cells.”

      In the discussion, the authors mention that Shi et al showed differential expression with cib2/3 in tall versus short hair cells of zebrafish cristae. However, there is no in situ data in the Shi study for cib2 and cib3. Instead, Shi et al show in situs for zpld1a and cabp5b that mark these cell types in the lateral crista. The text is slightly misleading and should be changed to reflect that UMAP data support this conclusion.

      We have removed reference to cib2/3 zebrafish differential expression from our discussion. It is true that this differential expression has only been inferred by UMAP and not in situ data.

      It should be noted that the acoustic startle reflex is mediated by the saccule in zebrafish, which does not possess layers of short and tall hair cells, but rather only has one layer of hair cells. Whether saccular hair cells can be regarded as strictly 'short' hair cell types remains to be determined. In this paragraph of the discussion, the authors are confounding their interpretation by not being careful about which endorgan they are discussing (line 521). In fact, there is a general error in the manuscript in referring to vestibular organs without specifying what is shown. The cristae in zebrafish do not participate in behavioral reflexes until 25 dpf and they are not known to synapse onto the Mauthner cell, which mediates startle reflexes.

      Thank you for pointing out these issues. We now state in the results that the startle reflex in zebrafish relies primarily on the saccule. In the discussion we now focus mainly on short and tall hair cells of the crista. We also outline again in the discussion that the saccule is required for acoustic startle and the crista are for angular acceleration.

      Minor points: 

      Lines 298-302: The Zhu reference is not correct (wrong Zhu author). The statement on the functional reliance on Tmc2a versus Tmc1/2b should be referenced with Smith et al., 2020 and the correct Zhu 2021 study from the McDermott lab. Otherwise, the basis for the roles of the Tmcs in the cartoon in panel 6E is not clear.

      Thanks for pointing out this oversight. We have updated the reference.

      Line 548 should use numbers to make the multiple points, otherwise, this sentence is long and awkward. 

      The sentence has been re-arranged to make it shorter and to address another point raised by referees: “Structural predictions using AF2 show conserved folds for human and zebrafish proteins, as well as conserved architecture for their protein complexes. Predictions are consistent with previous experimentally validated models for the TMC1 pore (Ballesteros et al., 2018; Pan et al., 2018), with the structure of human CIB3 coupled to mouse TMC1-IL1 (Liang et al., 2021), and with our NMR data validating the interaction between human TMC1 and CIB2/3 proteins. Remarkably, the AF2 models are also consistent with the architecture of the nematode TMC-1 and CALM-1 complex (Jeong et al., 2022), despite low sequence identity (36% between human TMC1 and worm TMC-1 and 51% between human CIB2 and worm CALM-1). This suggests that the TMC + CIB functional relationship may extend beyond vertebrates.”

      Suggested improvements to the figures: 

      In general, some of the panels are so close together that keys or text for one panel look like they might belong to another. Increasing the white space would improve this issue. 

      Figure 3 has been adjusted as requested, Figure 7 has been split into two (Figure 7 and Figure 8) to make them more readable and to move data from the supplement to the main text as requested below.

      Fig1A. The control versus the KO images look so different that this figure fails to make the point that FM labeling is unaffected. The authors should consider substituting a better image for the control. It is not ideal to start off on a weak point in the first panel of the paper. 

      We agree and have updated Figure 1 accordingly.

      Fig1C. It is critical to state the stage here. Also P12? 

      scRNA-seq data are extracted from Matthew Kelley’s work and are a combination of P1, P12 and P100 utricular hair cells as following: Utricular hair cells were isolated by flow cytometry from 12- and 100-day old mice. Gene expression was then measured with scRNA-seq using the 10x platform. The data were then combined with a previously published single cell data set (samples from GSE71982) containing utricular hair cells isolated at P1. This dataset shows gene expression in immature vs mature utricular hair cells. The immature hair cells consist of a mixture of type I and type II cells.

      Fig1D. This schematic is confusing. The WT and KO labels are misplaced and the difference between gene and protein diagrams is not apparent. Maybe using a different bar diagram for the protein or at least adding 'aa' to the protein diagrams would be helpful. 

      Sorry for the confusion. We have revised panel 1D to address these concerns.

      Fig1E. Would be good to add 'mRNA' below the graph. 

      Done. We have added “mRNA fold change on the Y-axis” label.

      Fig2C and D. Why use such a late-stage P18 for the immunohistochemistry? 

      Data presented in panel 2C are from P5 explants kept 2 days in vitro. For panel 2D, P18 is relevant since ABR were performed at P16 and hair cell degeneration in CIB2 mutants as previously described occurs around P18-P21.

      Fig3A. Why isn't the cib2-/- genotype shown? 

      Data on cib2-/- mutant mice have already been published and no vestibular deficits have been found. See Giese et al., 2017 and Michel et al., 2017

      Fig3F. Does this pertain to the open field testing? It would make sense for this panel to be associated with those first panels. 

      Figure 3 has been updated as requested. 

      Fig4A. Which vestibular end organ? Are these ampullary cells? (Same question for 4B.) The statement in the text about 'indistinguishable' hair bundles is not supported by these panels. There appears to be an obvious difference here--the hair bundles look splayed in the double KO. Either the magnification of the images is not the same or the base of the bundles is wider in the double KO as well. This morphology appears to be at odds with results reported by Wang et al., 2023. 

      The vestibular end organs shown in Figure 4A are ampullae. Magnifications are consistent across all the panels. While reviewer might be right regarding the hair bundle morphology, SEM data would be the best approach to address this point. Unfortunately, we currently do not have such data and we believe that only vestibular hair loss can be addressed using IF images. Thus, we are only commenting on the absence of obvious vestibular haircell loss in the double KO mutants.

      Fig4C. To support the claim that extrastriolar hair cells in the Cib3-/- mice are less labeled with FM dye it would be necessary to at least indicate the two zones but also to quantify the fluorescence. One can imagine that labeling is quite variable due to differences in IP injection.

      The two zones have been outlined in Figure 4C as requested.

      Fig5. Strangely the authors dedicate a third of Figure 1 to describing the mouse KO of Cib3, yet no information is given about the zebrafish CRISPR alleles generated for this study. There is nothing in the results text or in this figure. At least one schematic could be added to introduce the fish alleles and another panel of gEAR information about cib2 and cib3 expression to help explain the neuromast data as was done in Fig1C.

      We have added a supplemental figure (Figure 5-figure Supplement 1) that outlines where the zebrafish cib2 and cib3 mutations are located. We also state in the results additional information regarding these lesions. In addition, we provide context for examining cib2/3 in zebrafish hair cells by referencing published data from inner ear and lateral line scRNAseq data in the results section.

      Absolutely nitpicky here, but the arrow in 5H may be confused for a mechanical stimulus.

      The arrow in 5H has been changed to a dashed line.

      Why not include the data from the supplemental figure at the end of this figure? 

      The calcium imaging data in the supplement could be included in the main figure but it would make for a massive figure. In eLife supplements can be viewed quite easily online, next to the main figures.

      Fig6. The ampullary hair bundles look thinner in 6I. Is this also the case for double KO neuromast bundles? Such data support the findings of Wang et al., 2023.

      We did not quantify the width of the hair bundles in the crista or neuromast. It is possible that the bundles are indeed thinner similar to Wang et al 2023.

      Fig7A. IL1 should be indicated in this panel. 

      IL1 has been indicated, as suggested.

      Fig7 supp 12. Color coding of the subunits would be appreciated here. 

      Done as requested.

      Fig7. Overall the supplemental data for Figure 7 is quite extensive and the significance of this data is underappreciated. The authors could consider pushing panel C to supplemental as it is a second method to confirm the modeling interactions and instead highlight the dimer models which are more relevant than the monomer structures. Also, I find the additional alpha 0 helix quite interesting because it is not seen in the C. elegans cryoEM structure. Panel G should be given more importance instead of positioned deep into the figure next to the salt bridges in F. Overall, the novelty and significance of the modeling data deserves more importance in the paper. 

      We thank the reviewer for these helpful suggestions. The amphipathic alpha 0 helix is present in the C. elegans cryo-EM structure, although it is named differently in their paper (Jeong et al., 2022). We have now clarified this in the text: “Our new models feature an additional amphipathic helix, which we denote a0, extending almost parallel to the expected plane of the membrane bilayer without crossing towards the extracellular side (as observed for a mostly hydrophobic a0 in OSCA channels and labeled as H3 in the worm TMC-1 structure) …”. In addition, we have modified Figure 7 and highlighted panel G in a separate Figure 8 as requested.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      One enduring mystery involving the evolution of genomes is the remarkable variation they exhibit with respect to size. Much of that variation is due to differences in the number of transposable elements, which often (but not always) correlates with the overall quantity of DNA. Amplification of TEs is nearly always either selectively neutral or negative with respect to host fitness. Given that larger effective population sizes are more efficient at removing these mutations, it has been hypothesized that TE content, and thus overall genome size, may be a function of effective population size. The authors of this manuscript test this hypothesis by using a uniform approach to analysis of several hundred animal genomes, using the ratio of synonymous to nonsynonymous mutations in coding sequence as a measure of the overall strength of purifying selection, which serves as a proxy for effective population size over time. The data convincingly demonstrates that it is unlikely that effective population size has a strong effect on TE content and, by extension, overall genome size (except for birds).

      Strengths:

      Although this ground has been covered before in many other papers, the strength of this analysis is that it is comprehensive and treats all the genomes with the same pipeline, making comparisons more convincing. Although this is a negative result, it is important because it is relatively comprehensive and indicates that there will be no simple, global hypothesis that can explain the observed variation.

      Weaknesses:

      In several places, I think the authors slip between assertions of correlation and assertions of cause-effect relationships not established in the results.

      Several times in the previous version of the manuscript we used the expression “effect of dN/dS on…” which might suggest a causal relationship. We have rephrased these expressions and highlighted the changes in the main text, so that correlation is not mistaken with causation (see also responses to detailed comments below).

      In other places, the arguments end up feeling circular, based, I think, on those inferred causal relationships. It was also puzzling why plants (which show vast differences in DNA content) were ignored altogether.

      The analysis focuses on metazoans for two reasons: one practical and one fundamental.

      The practical reason is computational. Our analysis included TE annotation, phylogenetic estimation and dN/dS estimation, which would have been very difficult with the hundreds, if not thousands, of plant genomes available. If we had included plants, it would have been natural to include fungi as well, to have a complete set of multicellular eukaryotic genomes, adding to the computational burden. The second fundamental reason is that plants show important genome size differences due to more frequent whole genome duplications (polyploidization) than in animals. It is therefore possible that the effect of selection on genome size is different in these two groups, which would have led us to treat them separately, decreasing the interest of this comparison. For these reasons we chose to focus on animals that still provide very wide ranges of genome size and population size well suited to test the impact of genetic drift on the genomic TE content.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The Mutational Hazard Hypothesis (MHH) is a very influential hypothesis in explaining the origins of genomic and other complexity that seem to entail the fixation of costly elements. Despite its influence, very few tests of the hypothesis have been offered, and most of these come with important caveats. This lack of empirical tests largely reflects the challenges of estimating crucial parameters.

      The authors test the central contention of the MHH, namely that genome size follows effective population size (Ne). They martial a lot of genomic and comparative data, test the viability of their surrogates for Ne and genome size, and use correct methods (phylogenetically corrected correlation) to test the hypothesis. Strikingly, they not only find that Ne is not THE major determinant of genome size, as is argued by MHH, but that there is not even a marginally significant effect. This is remarkable, making this an important paper.

      Strengths:

      The hypothesis tested is of great importance.

      The negative finding is of great importance for reevaluating the predictive power of the tested hypothesis.

      The test is straightforward and clear.

      The analysis is a technical tour-de-force, convincingly circumventing a number of challenges of mounting a true test of the hypothesis.

      Weaknesses:

      I note no particular strengths, but I believe the paper could be further strengthened in three major ways.

      (1) The authors should note that the hypothesis that they are testing is larger than the MHH.

      The MHH hypothesis says that (i) low-Ne species have more junk in their genomes and

      (ii) this is because junk tends to be costly because of increased mutation rate to nulls, relative to competing non/less-junky alleles.

      The current results reject not just the compound (i+ii) MHH hypothesis, but in fact any hypothesis that relies on i. This is notably a (much) more important rejection. Indeed, whereas MHH relies on particular constructions of increased mutation rates of varying plausibility, the more general hypothesis i includes any imaginable or proposed cost to the extra sequence (replication costs, background transcription, costs of transposition, ectopic expression of neighboring genes, recombination between homologous elements, misaligning during meiosis, reduced organismal function from nuclear expansion, the list goes on and on). For those who find the MHH dubious on its merits, focusing this paper on the MHH reduces its impact - the larger hypothesis that the small costs of extra sequence dictate the fates of different organisms' genomes is, in my opinion, a much more important and plausible hypothesis, and thus the current rejection is more important than the authors let on.

      The MHH is arguably the most structured and influential theoretical framework proposed to date based on the null assumption (i), therefore setting the paper up with the MHH is somehow inevitable. Because of this, we mostly discuss the assumption (ii) (the mutational aspect brought about by junk DNA) and the peculiarities of TE biology that can drive the genome away from the expectations of (i). We however agree that the hazard posed by extra DNA is not limited to the gain of function via the mutation process, but can be linked to many other molecular processes as mentioned above. Moreover, we also agree that our results can be interpreted within the general framework of the nearly-neutral theory. They demonstrate that mutations, whether increasing or decreasing genome size, have a distribution of fitness effects that falls outside the range necessary for selection in larger populations. In the revised manuscript, we made the concept of hazard more comprehensive and further stressed that this applies not only to TEs but any nearly-neutral mutation affecting non-coding DNA (lines 491-496): “Notably, these results not only reject the theory of extra non-coding DNA being costly for its point mutational risk, but also challenges the more general idea of its accumulation depending on other kinds of detrimental effects, such as increased replication, pervasive transcription, or ectopic recombination. Therefore, our results can be considered more general than a mere rejection of the MHH hypothesis, as they do not support any theory predicting that species with low Ne would accumulate more non-coding DNA.”

      (2) In addition to the authors' careful logical and mathematical description of their work, they should take more time to show the intuition that arises from their data. In particular, just by looking at Figure 1b one can see what is wrong with the non-phylogenetically-corrected correlations that MHH's supporters use. That figure shows that mammals, many of which have small Ne, have large genomes regardless of their Ne, which suggests that the coincidence of large genomes and frequently small Ne in this lineage is just that, a coincidence, not a causal relationship. Similarly, insects by and large have large Ne, regardless of their genome size. Insects, many of which have large genomes, have large Ne regardless of their genome size, again suggesting that the coincidence of this lineage of generally large Ne and smaller genomes is not causal. Given that these two lineages are abundant on earth in addition to being overrepresented among available genomes (and were even more overrepresented when the foundational MHH papers collected available genomes), it begins to emerge how one can easily end up with a spurious non-phylogenetically corrected correlation: grab a few insects, grab a few mammals, and you get a correlation. Notably, the same holds for lineages not included here but that are highly represented in our databases (and all the more so 20 years ago): yeasts related to S. cerevisiae (generally small genomes and large median Ne despite variation) and angiosperms (generally large genomes (compared to most eukaryotes) and small median Ne despite variation). Pointing these clear points out will help non-specialists to understand why the current analysis is not merely a they-said-them-said case, but offers an explanation for why the current authors' conclusions differ from the MHH's supporters and moreover explain what is wrong with the MHH's supporters' arguments.

      We thank the referee for this perspective. We agree that comparing dispersion of the points from the non-phylogenetically corrected correlation with the results of the phylogenetic contrasts intuitively emphasizes the importance of accounting for species relatedness. We added on to the discussion to stress the phylogenetic structure present in the data (lines 408-417): “It is important to note how not treating species traits as non-independent leads to artifactual results (Figure 2B-C). For instance, mammals have on average small population sizes and the largest genomes. Conversely, insects tend to have large Ne and overall small genomes. With a high sampling power and phylogenetic inertia being taken into account, our meta-analysis clearly points at a phylogenetic structure in the data: the main clades are each confined to separate genome size ranges regardless of their dN/dS variation. The other way around, variability in genome size can be observed in insects, irrespective of their dN/dS. Relying on non phylogenetically corrected models based on a limited number of species (such as that available at the time of the MHH proposal) can thus result in a spurious positive scaling between genome size and Ne proxies.”

      (3) A third way in which the paper is more important than the authors let on is in the striking degree of the failure of MHH here. MHH does not merely claim that Ne is one contributor to genome size among many; it claims that Ne is THE major contributor, which is a much, much stronger claim. That no evidence exists in the current data for even the small claim is a remarkable failure of the actual MHH hypothesis: the possibility is quite remote that Ne is THE major contributor but that one cannot even find a marginally significant correlation in a huge correlation analysis deriving from a lot of challenging bioinformatic work. Thus this is an extremely strong rejection of the MHH. The MHH is extremely influential and yet very challenging to test clearly. Frankly, the authors would be doing the field a disservice if they did not more strongly state the degree of importance of this finding.

      We respectfully disagree with the review that there is currently no evidence for an effect of Ne on genome size evolution. While it is accurate that our large dataset allows us to reject the universality of Ne as the major contributor to genome size variation, this does not exclude the possibility of such an effect in certain contexts. Notably, there are several pieces of evidence that find support for Ne to determine genome size variation and to entail nearly-neutral TE dynamics under certain circumstances, e.g. of particularly strongly contrasted Ne and moderate divergence times (Lefébure et al., 2017 Genome Res 27: 1016-1028; Mérel et al., 2021 Mol Biol Evol 38: 4252-4267; Mérel et al., 2024 biorXiv: 2024-01; Tollis and Boissinot, 2013 Genome Biol Evol 5: 1754-1768; Ruggiero et al., 2017 Front Genet 8: 44). The strength of such works is to analyze the short-term dynamics of TEs in response to N<sub>e</sub> within groups of species/populations, where the cost posed by extra DNA is likely to be similar. Indeed, the MHH predicts genome size to vary according to the combination of drift and mutation under the nearly-neutral theory of molecular evolution. Our work demonstrates that it is not true universally but does not exclude that it could exist locally. Moreover, defence mechanisms against TEs proliferation are often complex molecular machineries that might or might not evolve according to different constraints among clades. We have detailed these points in the discussion (lines 503-518).

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary

      The Mutational Hazard Hypothesis (MHH) suggests that lineages with smaller effective population sizes should accumulate slightly deleterious transposable elements leading to larger genome sizes. Marino and colleagues tested the MHH using a set of 807 vertebrate, mollusc, and insect species. The authors mined repeats de novo and estimated dN/dS for each genome. Then, they used dN/dS and life history traits as reliable proxies for effective population size and tested for correlations between these proxies and repeat content while accounting for phylogenetic nonindependence. The results suggest that overall, lineages with lower effective population sizes do not exhibit increases in repeat content or genome size. This contrasts with expectations from the MHH. The authors speculate that changes in genome size may be driven by lineage-specific host-TE conflicts rather than effective population size.

      Strengths

      The general conclusions of this paper are supported by a powerful dataset of phylogenetically diverse species. The use of C-values rather than assembly size for many species (when available) helps mitigate the challenges associated with the underrepresentation of repetitive regions in short-read-based genome assemblies. As expected, genome size and repeat content are highly correlated across species. Nonetheless, the authors report divergent relationships between genome size and dN/dS and TE content and dN/dS in multiple clades: Insecta, Actinopteri, Aves, and Mammalia. These discrepancies are interesting but could reflect biases associated with the authors' methodology for repeat detection and quantification rather than the true biology.

      Weaknesses

      The authors used dnaPipeTE for repeat quantification. Although dnaPipeTE is a useful tool for estimating TE content when genome assemblies are not available, it exhibits several biases. One of these is that dnaPipeTE seems to consistently underestimate satellite content (compared to repeat masker on assembled genomes; see Goubert et al. 2015). Satellites comprise a significant portion of many animal genomes and are likely significant contributors to differences in genome size. This should have a stronger effect on results in species where satellites comprise a larger proportion of the genome relative to other repeats (e.g. Drosophila virilis, >40% of the genome (Flynn et al. 2020); Triatoma infestans, 25% of the genome (Pita et al. 2017) and many others). For example, the authors report that only 0.46% of the Triatoma infestans genome is "other repeats" (which include simple repeats and satellites). This contrasts with previous reports of {greater than or equal to}25% satellite content in Triatoma infestans (Pita et al. 2017). Similarly, this study's results for "other" repeat content appear to be consistently lower for Drosophila species relative to previous reports (e.g. de Lima & Ruiz-Ruano 2022). The most extreme case of this is for Drosophila albomicans where the authors report 0.06% "other" repeat content when previous reports have suggested that 18%->38% of the genome is composed of satellites (de Lima & Ruiz-Ruano 2022). It is conceivable that occasional drastic underestimates or overestimates for repeat content in some species could have a large effect on coevol results, but a minimal effect on more general trends (e.g. the overall relationship between repeat content and genome size).

      There are indeed some discrepancies between our estimates of low complexity repeats and those from the literature due to the approach used. Hence, occasional underestimates or overestimates of repeat content are possible. As noted, the contribution of “Other” repeats to the overall repeat content is generally very low, meaning an underestimation bias. We thank the reviewer for providing this interesting review.

      We emphasized these points in the discussion of our revised manuscript (lines 358-376): “While the remarkable conservation of avian genome sizes has prompted interpretations involving further mechanisms (see discussion below), dnaPipeTE is known to generally underestimate satellite content (Goubert et al. 2015). This bias is more relevant for those species that exhibit large fractions of satellites compared to TEs in their repeatome. For instance, the portions of simple and low complexity repeats estimated with dnaPipeTE are consistently smaller than those reported in previous analyses based on assembly annotation for some species, such as Triatoma infestans (0.46% vs 25%; 7 Mbp vs 400 Mbp), Drosophila eugracilis (1.28% vs 10.89%; 2 Mbp vs 25 Mbp), Drosophila albomicans (0.06% vs 18 to 38%; 0.12 Mbp vs 39 to 85 Mbp) and some other Drosophila species (Pita et al. 2017; de Lima and Ruiz-Luano 2022; Supplemental Table S2). Although the accuracy of Coevol analyses might occasionally be affected by such underestimations, the effect is likely minimal on the general trends. Inability to detect ancient TE copies is another relevant bias of dnaPipeTE. However, the strong correlation between repeat content and genome size and the consistency of dnaPipeTE and earlGrey results, even in large genomes such as that of Aedes albopictus, indicate that dnaPipeTE method is pertinent for our large-scale analysis. Furthermore, such an approach is especially fitting for the examination of recent TEs, as this specific analysis is not biased by very repetitive new TE families that are problematic to assemble.”

      Not being able to correctly estimate the quantity of satellites might pose a problem for quantifying the total content of junk DNA. However, the overall repeat content mostly composed of TEs correlates very well with genome size, both in the overall dataset and within clades (with the notable exception of birds) so we are confident that this limitation is not the explanation of our negative results. Moreover, while satellite information might be missing, this is not problematic to test our hypothesis, as we focus on TEs, whose proliferation mechanism differs significantly from that of tandem repeats and largely account for genome size variation.

      Another bias of dnaPipeTE is that it does not detect ancient TEs as well as more recently active TEs (Goubert et al., 2015 Genome Biol Evol 7: 1192-1205). Thus, the repeat content used for PIC and coevolve analyses here is inherently biased toward more recently inserted TEs. This bias could significantly impact the inference of long-term evolutionary trends.

      Indeed, dnaPipeTE is not good at detecting old TE copies due to the read-based approach, biasing the outcome towards new elements. We agree that TE content can be underestimated, especially in those genomes that tend to accumulate TEs rather than getting rid of them. However, the sum of old TEs and recent TEs is extremely well correlated to genome size (Pearson’s correlation: r = 0.87, p-value < 2.2e-16; PIC: slope = 0.22, adj-R<sup>2</sup> = 0.42, p-value < 2.2e-16). Our main result therefore does not rely on an accurate estimation of old TEs. In contrast, we hypothesized that recent TEs could be interesting because selection could be more likely to act on TEs insertion and dynamics rather than on non-coding DNA as a whole. Our results demonstrate that this is not the case. It should be noted that in spite of its limits towards old TEs, dnaPipeTE is well-suited for this analysis as it is not biased by highly repetitive new TE families that are challenging to assemble. In the revised manuscript, we now emphasize the limitations of dnaPipeTE and discuss the consequences on our results. See lines 359-374 (reported above) and lines 449-455: “On the other hand, it is conceivable the avian TE diversity to be underappreciated due to the limits of sequencing technologies used so far in resolving complex repeat-rich regions. For instance, employment of long-reads technologies allowed to reveal more extended repeated regions that were previously ignored with short read assemblies (Kapusta and Suh 2017; Benham et al. 2024). Besides, quite large fractions might indeed be satellite sequences constituting relevant fractions of the genome that are challenging to identify with reference- or read-based methods (Edwards et al. 2025).”

      Finally, in a preliminary work on the dipteran species, we showed that the TE content estimated with dnaPipeTE is generally similar to that estimated from the assembly with earlGrey (Baril et al., 2024 Mol Biol Evol 38: msae068) across a good range of genome sizes going from drosophilid-like to mosquito-like (TE genomic percentage: Pearson’s r = 0.88, p-value = 1.951e-10; TE base pairs: Pearson’s r = 0.90, p-value = 3.573e-11; see also the corrected Supplementary Figure S2 and new Supplementary Figure S3). While TEs for these species are probably dominated by recent to moderately recent TEs, Ae. albopictus is an outlier for its genome size and the estimations with the two methods are largely consistent. However, the computation time required to estimate TE content using EarlGrey was significantly longer, with a ~300% increase in computation time, making it a very costly option (a similar issue applicable to other assembly-based annotation pipelines). Given the rationale presented above, we decided to use dnaPipeTE instead of EarlGrey.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Since I am not an expert in the field, some of these comments may simply reflect a lack of understanding on my part. However, in those cases, I hope they can help the authors clarify important points. I did have a bunch of comments concerning the complexity of the relationship between TEs and their hosts that would likely affect TE content, but I ended up deleting most of them because they were covered in the discussion. However, I do think that in setting up the paper, particularly given the results, it might have been useful to introduce those issues in the introduction. That is to say, treating TEs as a generic mutagen that will fit into a relatively simple model is unlikely to be correct. What will ultimately be more interesting are the particulars of the ways that the relationships between TEs and their host evolve over time. Finally, given the huge variation in plant genes with respect to genome size and TE content, along with really interesting variation in deletion rates, I'm surprised that they were not included. I get that you have to draw a line somewhere, and this work builds on a bunch of other work in animals, but it seems like a missed opportunity.

      We chose to restrict the introduction to the rationale behind the MHH as it is the starting point and focus of the manuscript. Because the aspects of the complexity of TE-host relationships are only covered in a speculative way, we limited them to the discussion but it is true that introducing them at the very beginning gives a more comprehensive overview. The introduction now includes a few sentences about lineage-specific selective effect of TEs and TE-host evolution (lines 83-86): “On top of that, an alternative TE-host-oriented perspective is that the accumulation of TEs in particular depends on their type of activity and dynamics, as well as on the lineage-specific silencing mechanisms evolved by host genomes (Ågren and Wright 2011).”

      Page 4. "The MHH is highly popular..." Evidence for this? It is fine as is, but it could also be seen as a straw man argument. Perhaps make clear this is an opinion of the authors?

      That MHH is popular and well-known is more a fact than an opinion: the original paper by Lynch and Conery (2003) and “The origins of genome architecture” by Lynch (2007) have respectively 1872 and 1901 citations to the present date (04/03/2025). Besides, the MHH is often invoked in highly cited reviews about TEs, e.g. Bourque et al., 2018 Genome Biol 19:1-12; Wells and Feschotte, 2020 Annu Rev Genet 54: 539-561.

      Page 4. "on phylogenetically very diverse datasets..." Given the fact that even closely related plants can show huge variation in genome size, it's a shame that they weren't included here. There are also numerous examples of closely related plants that are obligate selfers and out-crossers.

      This is true, and some studies already tested MHH in specific plant groups (Ågren et al., 2014 BMC Genom 15: 1-9; Hu et al., 2011 Nat Genet 43: 476-481; Wright et al., 2008 Int J Plant Sci 169: 105-118), including selfers vs out-crossers cases (Glémin et al., 2019 Evolutionary genomics: statistical and computational methods: 331-369). Further development in this kingdom would be interesting. However, the boundary was set to metazoans since the very beginning of analyses to maintain a large phylogenetic span and a manageable computational burden. Furthermore, some of the included animal clades are supposed to display good Ne contrasts according to known LHTs or to previous literature: for instance, the very different Ne of mammals and insects, as well as more narrowed examples like Drosophilidae and solitary vs eusocial hymenopterans.

      Page 6. "species-poor, deep-branching taxa were excluded" I see why this was done, as these taxa would not provide close as well as distant comparisons, but I would have thought they might have provided some interesting outlying data. As the geneticists say, value the exceptions.

      The reason to exclude them was not only that they would solely provide very distant comparisons. The lack of a rich and balanced sampling would imply calculating nucleotide substitution rates over hundreds of millions of years, which typically lead to saturation of synonymous sites. In case of saturation of synonymous sites, the synonymous divergence will be underestimated, and therefore, the dN/dS ratio no longer a valuable estimate of N<sub>e</sub>. Outside vertebrates and insects, the available genomes in a clade would mostly correspond to a few species from an entire phylum, making it challenging to estimate dN/dS and to correlate present day genome size with Ne estimated over hundreds of millions of years.

      Figure 1. What are the scaling units for each of these values? I get that dN/dS is between 0 and 1, but what about genome sizes? Are these relative sizes? Are TE content values a percent of the total? This may be mentioned elsewhere, but I think it is worth putting that information here as well.

      Thanks for pointing this out. Both genome sizes and TE contents are in bp, we added this information in the legend of the figure.

      Page 8. TE content estimates are invariably wrong given the diversity of TEs and, in many genomes, the presence of large numbers of low copy number "dead" elements. If that varies between taxa, this could cause problems. Given that, I would have liked to see the protocols used here be compared to a set of "gold standard" genomes with exceptionally well-annotated TEs (Humans and D. melanogaster, for instance).

      As already mentioned, dnaPipeTE is indeed biased towards young TEs (elements older than 25-30% are generally not detected). TE content can therefore be underestimated, especially in those genomes that tend to accumulate TEs rather than getting rid of them. Although most of them do not have “gold-standard” genomes, a comparison of dnaPipeTE with TE annotations from assemblies is already provided for a subset of species. Some variation can be present - see Supplemental Figure S6 and comments of Reviewer#3 about detection of satellite sequences. However, the subset covers a good range of genome sizes and overall dnaPipeTE emerges as an appropriate tool to characterize the general patterns of repeat content variation.

      Page 11. "close to 1 accounts for more..." I would say "closer" rather than "close".

      Agreed and changed.

      Page 11. "We therefore employed this parameter..." I know you made the point earlier, but maybe reiterate the general point here that selection is lower on average with a lower effective population size. Actually, I'm wondering if we don't need a different term for long-term net effective population size, which dN/dS is measuring.

      We reiterated here the relationship among dN/dS, Ne and magnitude of selection (lines 200-204): “a dN/dS closer to 1 accounts for more frequent accumulation of mildly deleterious mutations over time due to increased genetic drift, while a dN/dS close to zero is associated with a stronger effect of purifying selection. We therefore employed this parameter as a genomic indicator of N<sub>e</sub>, as the two are expected to scale negatively between each other.”

      Page 11. "We estimated dN/dS with a mapping method..." I very much appreciate that the authors are using the same pipeline for the analysis of all of these taxa, but I would also be interested in how these dN/dS values compare with previously obtained values for a subset of intensively studied taxa.

      The original publication of the method demonstrated that dN/dS estimations using mapping are highly similar to those obtained with maximum likelihood methods, such as implemented in CODEML (Romiguier et al., 2014 J Evol Biol 27: 593-603). Below is the comparison for 16 vertebrate species from Figuet et al. (2016 Mol Biol Evol 33: 1517-1527), where dN/dS are reasonably correlated (slope = 0.57, adjusted-R<sup>2</sup> = 0.39, p-value=0.006). That being said, some noise can be present as the compared genes and the phylogeny used are different. Although we expect some value between 0 and 1, some range of variation is to be expected depending on both the species used and the markers, as substitution rates and/or selection strength might be different. Differences in dN/dS for the same species would not necessarily imply an issue with one of the methods.

      Author response image 1.

      Page 12. " As expected, Bio++ dN/dS scales positively with..." Should this be explicitly referenced earlier? I do see that references mentioning both body mass and longevity are included earlier, but the terms themselves are not.

      We added a list of the expected correlations for dN/dS and LHTs at the beginning of the paragraph (lines 205-208): “In general, dN/dS is expected to scale positively with body length, age at first birth, maximum longevity, age at sexual maturity and mass, and to scale negatively with metabolic rate, population density and depth range.”

      Page 12. "dN/dS estimation on the trimmed phylogeny deprived of short and long branches results in a stronger correlation with LHTs, suggesting that short branches..." and what about the long branches? Trimming them helps because LHTs change over long periods of time?

      Trimming of long branches should avoid saturation in the signal of synonymous substitutions if present (whereby increase in dN is not parallelled by corresponding increase in dS due to depletion of all sites). Excluding very long branches was one of the reasons why we excluded taxonomic groups with few species. See lines 131-133: “For reliable estimation of substitution rates, this dataset was further downsized to 807 representative genomes as species-poor, deep-branching taxa were excluded”. Correlating present-day genome size with Ne estimates over long periods of time could weaken a potential correlation. However, exploratory analyses (not included) did not indicate that excluding long branches improved the relationship between Ne and genome size/TE content. The rationale is explained in Materials and Methods but was wrongly formulated. We rephrased it and added a reference (lines 636-638): “Estimation of dN/dS on either very long or short terminal branches might lead to loss of accuracy due to branch saturation (Weber et al. 2014) or to a higher variance of substitution rates, respectively”.

      Table 2. "Expected significant correlations are marked in bold black; significant correlations opposite to the expected trend are marked in bold red." Expected based on the initial hypothesis? Perhaps frame it as a test of the hypothesis?

      As per the comment above, we added a sentence in the main text to clarify the expected correlations for dN/dS and LHTs (lines 205-208): “In general, dN/dS is expected to scale positively with body length, age at first birth, maximum longevity, age at sexual maturity and mass, and to scale negatively with metabolic rate, population density and depth range.”. The second expected correlation is that between dN/dS and genome size/TE content, which is stated at the beginning of paragraph 2.5 (lines 244-245): “If increased genetic drift leads to TE expansions, a positive relationship between dN/dS and TE content, and more broadly with genome size, should be observed.”.

      Page 14. "Based on the available traits, the two kinds of Ne proxies analyzed here correspond in general..." the two kinds being dN/dS and a selection of LHT?

      We rephrased the sentence as such (lines 233-234): “Based on the available traits, the estimations of dN/dS ratios obtained using two different methods correspond in general to each other”.

      Table 3. Did you explain why there is a distinction between GC3-poor and GC3-rich gene sets?

      No, the explanation is missing, thank you for pointing it out. The choice comes from the observations made by Mérel et al. (2024 biorXiv: 2024-01), who do find a stronger relationship between dN/dS and genome size in Drosophila using the same tool (Coevol) in GC3-poor genes than in GC3-rich ones or in random sets of genes exhibiting heterogeneity in GC3 content. There are several possible explanations for this. First, mixing genes with various base compositions in the same concatenate can alter the calculation of codon frequency and impair the accuracy of the model estimating substitution rates.

      Moreover, base composition and evolutionary rates may not be two independent molecular traits, at the very least in Drosophila, and more generally in species experiencing selection on codon bias. Because optimal codons are enriched in G/C bases at the third position (Duret and Mouchiroud, 1999 PNAS 96: 4482-4487), GC3-rich genes are likely to be more expressed and therefore evolve under stronger purifying selection than GC3-poor genes in Drosophila.

      Accordingly, Merel and colleagues observed significantly higher dN/dS estimates for GC3-poor genes than for GC3-rich genes. Additionally, selection on codon usage acting on these highly expressed genes, that are GC3-rich, violates the assumed neutrality of dS. This implies that dN/dS estimates based on genes under selection on codon bias are likely less appropriate proxies of Ne than expected.

      Although some of these observations may be specific to Drosophila, this criterion was taken into consideration as taking restricted gene subsets was required for Coevol runs. We added this explanation in materials and methods (lines 723-738).

      Page 16. "Coevol dN/dS scales negatively with genome size across the whole dataset (Slope = -0.287, adjusted-R<sup>2</sup> = 0.004, p-value = 0.039) and within insects" Should I assume that none of the other groups scale negatively on their own, but cumulatively, all of them do?

      Yes, and this is an “insect-effect”: the regression of the whole dataset is negative but it is not anymore when insects are removed (with the model still being far from significant).

      Page 16. "Overall, we find no evidence for a recursive association of dN/dS with genome size and TE content across the analysed animal taxa as an effect of long-term Ne variation." I get the point, but this is starting to feel a bit circular. What you see is a lack of an association between dN/dS and TE content, but what do you mean by "as an effect of..." here? You are using dN/dS as a proxy, so the wording here feels odd.

      See the reply below.

      Page 17. I'm not sure that "effect" here is the word to use. You are looking at associations, not cause-effect relationships. Certainly, dN/dS is not causing anything; it is an effect of variation in purifying selection.

      Agreed, dN/dS is the ratio reflecting the level of purifying selection, not the cause itself. dN/dS is employed here as the independent variable in the correlation with genome size or TE content. dN/dS has an “effect” on the dependent variables in the sense that it can predict their variation, not in the sense that it is causing genome size to vary. We rephrased this and similar sentences to avoid misunderstandings (changes are highlighted in the revised text).

      Page 17. "Instead, mammalian TE content correlates positively with metabolic rate and population density, and negatively with body length, mass, sexual maturity, age at first birth and longevity." I guess I'm getting tripped up by measures of current LHTs and historical LHTs which, I'm assuming, varies considerably over the long periods of time that impact TE content evolution.

      PIC analyses can be considered as correlations on current LHTs as we compare values (or better, contrasts) at the tips of phylogenies. In the case of Coevol, traits are inferred at internal nodes, in such a way that the model should take into account the historical variation of LHTs, too.

      Page 18. "positive effect of dN/dS on recent TE insertions..." Again, this is not a measure of the effect of dN/dS on TE insertions, it is a measure of correlation. I know it's shorthand, but in this case, I think it really matters that we avoid making cause inferences.

      We have rephrased this as ”...very weak positive correlation of dN/dS with recent TE insertions…”.

      Page 18. "are consistent with the scenarios depicted by genome size and overall TE content in the corresponding clades." Maybe be more explicit here at the very end of the results about what those scenarios are.

      Correlating the recent TE content with dN/dS and LHTs basically recapitulates the relationship found using the other genomic traits (genome size and overall TE content). We have rephrased the closing sentence as “Therefore, the coevolution patterns between population size and recent TE content are consistent with the pictures emerging from the comparison of population size proxies with genome size and overall TE content in the corresponding clades” (lines 312-315).

      Page 19. "However, the difficulty in assembling repetitive regions..." I would say the same is true of TE content, which is almost always underestimated for the same reasons.

      “Repetitive regions” is here intended as an umbrella term including all kinds of repeats, from simple ones to transposable elements.

      Page 20. "repeat content has a lower capacity to explain size compared to other clades." Perhaps, but I'm not convinced this is not due to large numbers of low copy number elements, perhaps purged at varying rates. Are we certain that dnaPipeTE would detect these? Have rates of deletion in the various taxa examined been estimated?

      It is possible that low copy number elements are detected differently, according to the rate of decay in different species and depending also on the annotation method (indeed low copy families are less likely to be captured during read sampling by dnaPipeTE). A negative correlation between assembly size and deletion rate was observed in birds (Ji et al., 2023 Sci Adv 8: eabo0099). So we should expect a rate of TE removal inversely proportional to genome size, a positive correlation between TE content and genome size, and negative relationship between TE content and deletion rate, too. The relationship of TE content with deletion rate and genome size however appears more complex than this, even this paper using assembly-based TE annotations. However, misestimations of repeat content are also potentially due to the limited capacity of dnaPipeTE of detecting simple and low complexity repeats (see comments from Reviewer#3), which might be important genomic components in birds (see a few comments below).

      Page 21. "DNA gain, and their evolutionary dynamics appear of prime importance in driving genome size variation." How about DNA loss over time?

      See response to the comment below.

      Page 22. "in the latter case, the pace of sequence erosion could be in the long run independent of drift and lead to different trends of TE retention and degradation in different lineages." Ah, I see my earlier question is addressed here. How about deletion as a driver as well?

      Deletion was not investigated here. However, deletion processes are surely very different across animals and their impact merits to be studied as well within a comparative framework. Small scale deletion events have even been proposed to contrast the increase in genome size by TE expansion (Petrov et al., 2002 Theor Popul Biol 61: 531-544). In fact, their magnitude would not be high enough to effectively contrast processes of genome expansion in most organisms (Gregory, 2004 Gene 324: 15-34). However, larger-scale deletions might play an important role in genome size determinism by counterbalancing DNA gain (Kapusta et al., 2017 PNAS 114: E1460-E1469; Ji et al., 2023 Sci Adv 8: eabo0099). For sake of space we do not delve in detail into this issue, but we do provide some perspectives about the role of deletion (see lines 518-521 and 535-541).

      Page 22. "however not surprising given the higher variation of TE load compared to the restricted genome size range." I admit, I'm struggling with this. If it isn't genes, and it isn't satellites, and it isn't TEs, what is it?

      Most birds having ~1Gb genomes and displaying very low TE contents. Other studies annotated TEs in avian genome assemblies and also found a not so strong correlation between amount of TEs and genome size (Ji et al., 2023 Sci Adv 8: eabo0099, Kapusta and Suh, 2016 Ann N Y Acad Sci 1389: 164-185). It is possible that the TE diversity is underappreciated in birds due to the limits of sequencing technologies used so far in resolving complex repeat-rich regions. For instance, employment of long-reads technologies allowed to reveal more extended repeated regions that were previously ignored with short read assemblies (Kapusta and Suh, 2016 Ann N Y Acad Sci 1389: 164-185). Besides, quite large fractions might indeed be satellite sequences constituting relevant fractions of the genome (Edwards et al., 2025 biorXiv: 2025-02). We added this perspective in the discussion (lines 446-455): “As previous studies find relatively weak correlations between TE content and genome size in birds (Ji et al. 2022; Kapusta and Suh 2017), it is possible for the very narrow variation of the avian genome sizes to impair the detection of consistent signals. On the other hand, it is conceivable the avian TE diversity to be underappreciated due to the limits of sequencing technologies used so far in resolving complex repeat-rich regions. For instance, employment of long-reads technologies allowed to reveal more extended repeated regions that were previously ignored with short read assemblies (Kapusta and Suh 2017; Benham et al. 2024). Besides, quite large fractions might indeed be satellite sequences constituting relevant fractions of the genome that are challenging to identify with reference- or read-based methods (Edwards et al. 2025).” See also responses to Reviewer#3’s concerns about dnaPipeTE.

      Page 24. "Our findings do not support the quantity of non-coding DNA being driven in..." Many TEs carry genes and are "coding".

      Yes. Non-coding DNA intended as the non-coding portion of genomes not directly involved in organisms’ functions and fitness (in other words sequences not undergoing purifying selection). TEs do have coding parts but are in most part molecular parasites hijacking hosts’ machinery.

      Page 25. "There is some evidence of selection acting against TEs proliferation." Given that the vast majority of TEs are recognized and epigenetically silenced in most genomes, I'd say the evidence is overwhelming. Here I suspect you mean evidence for success in preventing proliferation. Actually, since we know that systems of TE silencing have a cost, it might be worth considering how the costs and benefits of these systems may have influenced overall TE content.

      We meant selection against TE proliferation in the making, notably visible at the level of genome-wide signatures for relaxed/effective selection. We rephrased it as “Evidence for signatures of negative selection against TE proliferation exist at various degrees.” (line 543).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Page 14: Please define GC3-rich and GC3-poor gene sets and how they were established, as well as why the analyses were conducted separately on GC3-rich and GC3-poor genes.

      We added a detailed explanation for the choice of GC3-rich and GC3-poor genes (see modified section Methods - Phylogenetic independent contrasts and Coevol reconstruction, lines 723-738).

      “Genes were selected according to their GC content at the third codon position (GC3). Indeed, mixing genes with heterogeneous base composition in the same concatenate might result in an alteration of the calculation of codon frequencies, and consequently impair the accuracy of the model estimating substitution rates (Mérel et al. 2024). Moreover, genes with different GC3 levels can reflect different selective pressures, as highly expressed genes should be enriched in optimal codons as a consequence of selection on codon usage. In Drosophila, where codon usage bias is at play, most optimal codons present G/C bases at the third position (Duret and Mouchiroud, 1999), meaning that genes with high GC3 content should evolve under stronger purifying selection than GC3-poor genes. Accordingly, Mérel et al. (2024) do find a stronger relationship between dN/dS and genome size when using GC3-poor genes, as compared to GC3-rich genes or gene concatenates of random GC3 composition. Finally, dN/dS can be influenced by GC-biased gene conversion (Bolívar et al. 2019; Ratnakumar et al. 2010), and the strength at which such substitution bias acts can be reflected by base composition. For these reasons, two sets of 50 genes with similar GC3 content were defined in order to employ genes undergoing similar evolutionary regimes.”

      Please add lines between columns and rows in tables. Table 3 is especially difficult to follow due to its size, and lines separating columns and rows would vastly help with readability.

      We added lines delimiting cells in all the main tables.

      Throughout the text and figures, please be consistent with either scientific names or common names for lineages or clades.

      Out of the five groups, for four of them the common name is the same as the scientific one (except Aves/birds).

      Regarding the title for section 3.1, I don't believe "underrate" is the best word here. I find this title confusing.

      We replaced the term “underrate” with “underestimate” in the title.

      The authors report that read type (short vs. long) does not have a significant effect on assembly size relative to C-value. However, the authors (albeit admittedly in the discussion) removed lower-quality assemblies using a minimum N50 cutoff. Thus, this lack of read-type effect could be quite misleading. I strongly recommend the authors either remove this analysis entirely from the manuscript or report results both with and without their minimum N50 cutoff. I expect that read type should have a strong effect on assembly size relative to C-value, especially in mammals where TEs and satellites comprise ~50% of the genome.

      Yes, it's likely that if we took any short-read assembly, we would have a short-read effect. We do not mean to suggest that in general short reads produce the same assembly quality as long reads, but that in this dataset we do not need to account for the read effect in the model to predict C-values. Adding the same test including all assemblies will be very time-consuming because C-values should be manually checked as already done for the species. If we removed this test, readers might wonder whether our genome size predictions are not distorted by a short-read effect. We now make it clear that this quality filter likely has an outcome on our observations: “This suggests that the assemblies selected for our dataset can mostly provide a reliable measurement of genome size, and thus a quasi-exhaustive view of the genome architecture.” (lines 333-335).

      There seem to be some confusing inconsistencies between Supplementary Table S2 and Supplementary Figure S2. In Supplementary Table S2, the authors report ~24% of the Drosophila pectinifera genome as unknown repeats. This is not consistent with the stacked bar plot for D. pectinifera in Supplementary Figure S2.

      True, the figure is wrong, thank you for spotting the error. The plot of Supplemental Figure S2 was remade with the correct repeat proportions as in Supplementary Tables S2 and S4. Because the reference genome sizes on which TE proportions are calculated are different for the two methods, we added another supplemental figure showing the same comparison in Kbp (now Supplemental Figure S3).

      At the bottom of page 20: "many species with a high duplication score in our dataset correspond to documented duplication" How many?

      Salmoniformes (9), Acipenseriformes (1), Cypriniformes (3) out of 23 species with high duplication score. It’s detailed in the results (lines 193-196): “Of the 24 species with more than 30% of duplicated BUSCO genes, 13 include sturgeon, salmonids and cyprinids, known to have undergone whole genome duplication (Du et al. 2020; Li and Guo 2020; Lien et al. 2016), and five are dipteran species, where gene duplications are common (Ruzzante et al. 2019).”

      Top of page 21: "However, the contribution of duplicated genes to genome size is minimal compared to the one of TEs, and removing species with high duplication scores does not affect our results: this implies that duplication does not impact genome size strongly enough to explain the lack of correlation with dN/dS." This sentence is confusing and needs rewording.

      We reworded the sentence (lines 383-384): “this implies that duplication is unlikely to be the factor causing the relationship between genome size and dN/dS to deviate from the pattern expected from the MHH”.

      Beginning of section 3.3: "Our dN/dS calculation included several filtering steps by branch length and topology: indeed, selecting markers by such criteria appears to be an essential step to reconcile estimations with different methodologies" A personal communication is cited here. Are there really no peer-reviewed sources supporting this claim?

      This mainly comes from a comparison of dN/dS calculation with different methods (notably ML method of bpp vs Coevol bayesian framework) on a set of Zoonomia species. We observed that estimations with different methods appeared correlated but with some noise: filtering out genes with deviant topologies (by a combination of PhylteR and of an unpublished Bayesian shrinkage model) reconciled even more the estimations obtained from different methods. Results are not shown here but the description of an analogous procedure is presented in Bastian, M. (2024). Génomique des populations intégrative: de la phylogénie à la génétique des populations (Doctoral dissertation, Université lyon 1) that we added to the references.

      Figure 2 needs to be cropped to remove the vertical gray line on the right of the figure as well as the portion of visible (partly cropped) text at the top. What is the "Tree scale" in Figure 1?

      Quality of figure 2 in the main text was adjusted. The tree scale is in amino acid substitutions, we added it in the legend of the figure.

      It is also unclear whether the authors used TE content or overall repeat content for their analyses.

      The overall repeat content includes both TEs and other kinds of repeats (simple repeats, low complexity repeats, satellites). The contribution of such other repeats to the total content is generally quite low for most species compared to that of TEs (only 13 genomes in all dataset have more than 3% of “Other” repeats). Conversely, the “other” repeats were not included in the recent content since the divergence of a copy from its consensus sequence is pertinent only for TEs.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript aims to elucidate the impact of a prophage within the genome of Shewanella fidelis on its interaction with the marine tunicate Ciona robusta. The authors made a deletion mutant of S. fidelis that lacks one of its two prophages. This mutant exhibited an enhanced biofilm phenotype, as assessed through crystal violet staining, and showed reduced motility. The authors examined the effect of prophage deletion on several genes that could modulate cyclic-diGMP levels. While no significant changes were observed under in vitro conditions, the gene for one protein potentially involved in cyclic-diGMP hydrolysis was overexpressed during microbe-host interactions. The mutant was retained more effectively within a one-hour timeframe, whereas the wild-type (WT) strain became more abundant after 24 hours. Fluorescence microscopy was used to visualize the localization patterns of the two strains, which appeared to differ. Additionally, a significant difference in the expression of one immune protein was noted after one hour, but this difference was not evident after 23 hours. An effect of VCBC-C addition on the expression of one prophage gene was also observed.

      Strengths:

      I appreciate how the authors integrate diverse expertise and methods to address questions regarding the impact of prophages on gut microbiome-host interactions. The chosen model system is appropriate, as it allows for high-throughput experimentation and the application of simple imaging techniques.

      Weaknesses:

      My primary concern is that the manuscript primarily describes observations without providing insight into the molecular mechanisms underlying the observed differences. It is particularly unclear how the presence of the prophage leads to the phenotypic changes related to bacterial physiology and host-microbe interactions.

      We appreciate the overall, enthusiastic reviewer feedback.  The current manuscript presents experimental evidence of the biological impact of the deletion of a stably integrated prophage in the genome of Shewanella fidelis 3313. The molecular mechanisms responsible for these biological effects are currently unknown but based on the limited genetic insight of some predicted gene regions, we can speculate on prophage-mediated influences impacting swimming behaviors. Below, we address additional concerns raised by the reviewer.

      Which specific prophage genes are critical, or is the insertion at a specific site in the bacterial genome the key factor?  While significant effects on bacterial physiology are reported under in vitro conditions, there is no clear attribution to particular enzymes or proteins.

      In this particular case, it is not entirely clear, as most ORFs within the prophage region have unknown functions, i.e., predicted as hypothetical proteins. In addition, the original insertion site does not appear to interrupt any specific gene but may impact adjacent genes/pathways (Fig 1b). Enhanced annotations, along with future targeted deletion methods for distinct prophage segments, will help us better investigate which predicted gene regions influence the observed traits. This will deepen our understanding of the mechanisms that regulate prophage influence on these traits.

      In contrast, when the system is expanded to include the tunicate, differences in the expression of a cyclic-diGMP hydrolase become apparent. Why do we not observe such differences under in vitro conditions, despite noting variations in biofilm formation and motility? Furthermore, given that the bacterial strain possesses two prophages, I am curious as to why the authors chose to target only one and not both.

      Differences in expression patterns of c-di-GMP regulators were also noted in vitro, but they just missed the statistical significance threshold when rho was used as a bacterial reference gene. The expression pattern of pdeB was consistent among each biological replicate, however. In full transparency, pdeB qPCR was originally performed with recA as a reference standard (bioRxiv preprint, ver 1). Here, significant changes in pdeB expression were observed in the in vitro assays comparing WT and ΔSfPat. These results prompted us to study changes in pdeB expression during in vivo colonization experiments, which also revealed significant changes. However, there was a concern that a potential SOS response would also activate recA, despite our preliminary data suggesting SOS was not involved. As a precautionary, we repeated the experiments with rho as a reference gene after it was identified as a stable reference. However, with rho as a reference gene, statistically significant responses were noted during in vivo colonization, but not in the in vitro assays. 

      In the current manuscript, one prophage was targeted based on preliminary findings indicating that the SfPat prophage region influences behaviors likely to impact colonization of the Ciona robusta gut. A separate genetic segment was also previously targeted for deletion as a misidentified prophage-like region, but that strain is not included in the current description. The currently presented data indicate that the observed phenomena can be attributed to the SfPat prophage.

      Regarding the microbe-host interaction, it is not clear why the increased retention ability of the prophage deletion strain did not lead to greater cell retention after 24 hours, especially since no differences in the immune response were observed at that time point.

      A predominantly adherent (non-motile) phenotype would likely facilitate elimination within fecal strings. There is substantial evidence from multiple model systems that strong swimming ability enhances the exploration and colonization of mucosal surfaces. Swimming helps with the penetration of mucus layers, chemotaxis toward epithelial surfaces, and overall “decision-making” in terms of shifting from a free-swimming (planktonic) state in the lumen within dietary material to a more sessile, adherent phenotype at the mucosal surface.

      Concerning the methodological approach, I am puzzled as to why the authors opted for qPCR instead of transcriptomics or proteomics. The latter approaches could have provided a broader understanding of the prophage's impact on both the microbe and the host.

      We agree with the reviewer that a transcriptomics approach would provide a broader understanding of the prophage’s impact on the microbe and animal host. Future studies will include a full multi-omic evaluation of this interaction. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Besides my above mentioned issues, I have a few more mini things:

      (A) what makes S. fidelis being a persistant member of the host microbiome? Please elaborate more on quantitive studies in this respect. –

      Shewanella species are stable members of the Ciona gut, and previous efforts (Dishaw et al, 2016) revealed that chitin and/or secreted host effectors could influence biofilm formation. The Ciona gut produces copious amounts of endogenous chitin-rich mucus, and a variety of bacteria have been identified that thrive under these conditions. In addition, versatile bacteria like Shewanella sp. likely expand the metabolic potential of filter-feeders like Ciona. Thus, our subsequent studies began to focus on these and other microbes isolated from the Ciona gut that appear to be stable residents. Identical strains have been recovered numerous times (since 2011) from this wild population of Ciona robusta.  

      (B) The authors use the word inter kingdom and refer to phage, bacterium and animal. As phages are not part of the three kingdoms of life I believe the terminology is wrong.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. In this context, we were referring to bacteria+phage as a unit and their interkingdom interaction with the animal host. But we recognize that this term can be misleading. Another, more appropriate term is ‘tripartite,’ and we have changed interkingdom to tripartite as appropriate, e.g., the abstract.

      (C) I like lines 55-61 and was expecting to see in the manuscript what of those things would be true for the chosen prophage.

      We looked at the coding region annotations within the prophage and the adjacent regions. The prophage coding regions are mostly annotated as unknown or predicted proteins, and a few as known phage-related components. We intend to reanalyze future and improved annotations and conduct deletion experiments targeting specific open reading frames (ORFs).

      (D) In line 76 the authors mention a Gödecke reference for Pseudomonas. I believe that this paper only deals with S. oneidensis.

      The inadvertent Gödecke reference has been removed.

      (E) All figures: The captions are too short to understand what the figures are showing and everything is too small and hard to read or see. Along these lines it is often unclear what the many datapoints show. Biological replicates, technical replicates....Overall figure 1 does not seem to contain much information.

      Figures and captions have been improved as suggested. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

      (F) Figure 3 what are a and b showing?

      Figure and descriptive legend have been improved.

      (G) Figure 4: Why did the author check expression only for one gene after 1 h but several genes after 24 h?

      Since we observed that in vitro VCBP-C alters biofilms of S. fidelis 3313 (Dishaw et al 2016), we hypothesized that the bacteria may alter host VCBP-C expression and that the influence of integrated prophages may further modulate gene expression. Since VCBP-C is endogenously expressed in the gut of Ciona, we expected that early exposure/colonization (one hour) would be crucial for the bacterial-VCBP interactions. Hence, the VCBP-C was our primary target. We then tested multiple immune response genes at 24 hours to get a more detailed understanding of the maturing immune responses. Future studies will expand our efforts using global transcriptomics to understand better the immune response during bacterial exposure and colonization events.

      (H) Do the authors mean stationary or localised?

      We are not sure about the context of the reviewer’s question here but we think our modifications have addressed these concerns. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript, "Prophage regulation of Shewanella fidelis 3313 motility and biofilm formation: implications for gut colonization dynamics in Ciona robusta", the authors are experimentally investigating the idea that integrated viruses (prophages) within a bacterial colonizer of the host Ciona robusta affect both the colonizer and the host. They found a prophage within the Ciona robusta colonizing bacterium Shewanella fidelis 3313, which affected both the bacteria and host. This prophage does so by regulating the phosphodiesterase gene pdeB in the bacterium when the bacterium has colonized the host. The prophage also regulates the activity of the host immune gene VCBP-C during early bacterial colonization. Prophage effects on both these genes affect the precise localization of the colonizing bacterium, motility of the bacterium, and bacterial biofilm formation on the host. Interestingly, VCBP-C expression also suppressed a prophage structural protein, creating a tripartite feedback loop in this symbiosis. This is exciting research that adds to the emerging body of evidence that prophages can have beneficial effects not only on their host bacteria but also on how that bacteria interacts in its environment. This study establishes the evolutionary conservation of this concept with intriguing implications of prophage effects on tripartite interactions.

      Strengths:

      This research effectively shows that a prophage within a bacterium colonizing a model ascidian affects both the bacterium and the host in vivo. These data establish the prophage effects on bacterial activity and expand these effects to the natural interactions within the host animal. The effects of the prophage through deletion on a suite of host genes are a strength, as shown by striking microscopy.

      Weaknesses:

      Unfortunately, there are abundant negative data that cast some limitations on the interpretation of the data. That is, examining specific gene expression has its limitations, which could be avoided by global transcriptomics of the bacteria and the host during colonization by the prophage-containing and prophage-deleted bacteria (1 hour and 24 hours). In this way, the tripartite interactions leading to mechanism could be better established.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments and recognize this important limitation. As a follow-up to the current study, we plan to perform more comprehensive global meta-transcriptomics analyses to better understand differentially expressed genes across both the host and microbe during colonization.

      Impact:

      The authors are correct to speculate that this research can have a significant impact on many animal microbiome studies, since bacterial lysogens are prevalent in most microbiomes. Screening for prophages, determining whether they are active, and "curing" the host bacteria of active prophages are effective tools for understanding the effects these mobile elements have on microbiomes. There are many potential effects of these elements in vivo, both positive and negative, this research is a good example of why this research should be explored.

      Context:

      The research area of prophage effects on host bacteria in vitro has been studied for decades, while these interactions in combination with animal hosts in vivo have been recent. The significance of this research shows that there could be divergent effects based on whether the study is conducted in vitro or in vivo. The in vivo results were striking. This is particularly so with the microscopy images. The benefit of using Ciona is that it has a translucent body which allows for following microbial localization. This is in contrast to mammalian studies where following microbial localization would either be difficult or near impossible.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      In general, I found that the research shown in this manuscript is solid, and the manuscript is well-written. I have no specific comments about the writing of the manuscript that would be of benefit.

      Figure 1 would benefit from the shrinking of white space between panels a and b. Also, in panel b, it is very difficult to read the x-axis, the number of basepairs. It is suggested to increase this font size.

      Figure 1 has been improved as suggested.

      Figure 2 is fine, however, what do three asterisks (***) in panel a signify? It is not described in the legend. One minor point that affects data understanding as presented, the wildtype (WT) change in expression is normalized to itself, therefore always equaling 1.0. This method of presentation muddies the variation in gene expression in the presence of the prophage. This is not an issue in Figure 2, but does have an effect on understanding Figure 2 - figure supplement 1.

      Figure 2 - figure supplement 1, as stated above, the normalization of the WT change in gene expression to 1.0 makes it difficult to understand the results. Why is pilZ change in gene expression not significant in panel s1a? It seems the median change is 50%, or whatever averaging is done, it's unclear whether this is the median and whether the error bars are standard deviation or some other metric.

      These should be defined in the statistical analysis section of the methods or in the legend itself. Further, in panel s1b, why is the reduction in gene expression of pdeB statistically significant, while a similar reduction in gene expression of pleD is not statistically significant?

      RQ values were calculated from 2<sup>-ddCt</sup>. The error bars in the figures were calculated by adding or subtracting the standard error from RQ. Since WT was used as a reference value for qPCR, the RQ value was normalized as 1 for all replicates and nonparametric tests were used to calculate the statistical significance. The values for pilZ were very close to significant; a value of 0.063 was derived via the Wilcoxon test. Only the changes in expression of pdeB were determined to be statistically significant, via the Wilcoxon test.

      Figure 3 panels a and b would be helped by having the same y-axis for each. It is impressive the amount of WT bacterial colonization takes place in 24 hours, particularly in the absence of the prophage, but it does not appear as impressive when the axes are changed between panels. Similar axes should be considered for every comparative graph.

      Figure 3 - figure supplement 1 legend would benefit from the same description of the animal's digestive locations as in the legend in Figure 3.

      We appreciate these suggestions and have made these changes accordingly. We have remade and combined Figure 3 a and b

      Figure 4, while it is unfortunate that none of the immune genes evaluated had a response to the deletion of the SfPat prophage in S. fidelis 3313 at 24 hours, did any of these genes have an effect at 1 hour of evaluation as VCBP-C did?

      The expression of this expanded gene set was not evaluated at one hour. This time point will, however, be included in our global evaluation of gene expression in our future transcriptome sequencing effort.

      Figure 5, the only question I have with these data is whether or not there is a dose-dependent effect of VCBP-C on SfPat P5 expression?

      Prior studies have found VCBP-C can impact biofilm formation in Shewanella sp. in a dose-dependent manner (some of the data appears in Dishaw et al, 2016). However, we have not yet considered whether VCBP-C impacts the expression of SfPat P5 (a phage capsid component) in a dose-dependent manner. We will consider this in future experimental designs.

      It is mentioned in the introduction (and data shown in the preprint) that there is more than one active prophage in Shewanella fidelis 3313. The preprint data shows that the Mu prophages had little effect on the studies. It may be worth discussing the presence and lack of effects of these Mu prophages. It also may lead to some discussion about the complexities of polylysogeny (as discussed by Silpe, et al, Nature, 2023).

      A full-length, inducible, Mu-like prophage region has been identified in the genome that has not been targeted for deletion, but will be included in follow-up studies. An earlier incomplete genome assembly contributed to the incorrect targeting and deletion of a prior Mu-like region, which was discussed in an earlier preprint version. Discussion and references to that strain have been removed from the more recent preprint versions. For clarity, the current manuscript describes strains that remain focused on the SfPat prophage, noting its contribution to the observed behavioral changes / traits.

      Is there any spontaneous induction of SfPat in vitro or in vivo with temperature change (prophages have been induced with heat stress), excessive UV exposure, or mitomycin C treatment?

      Preliminary induction studies using UV, mitomycin C, and temperature have been completed, but remain inconclusive with SfPat due to inconsistent induction patterns.

      Could you speculate, or perhaps do the experiment, as to whether the addition of VCBP-C to S. fidelis 3313 cultures affects biofilm production? The deletion of SfPat leads to greater biofilm production in vitro, while exogenously added VCBP-C represses SfPat P5 expression, would VCPB-C addition lead to greater biofilm production? Lastly, and this may be a failure of my understanding, is VCBP-C able to bind to S. fidelis? If so, does the prophage alter the bacteria and, consequently, the ability of VCBP-C to bind to the bacteria?

      Our lab is actively working to better understand the physical interactions of VCBP-C and bacteria, particularly lysogenic bacteria. Deletion mutants are helping us better understand the potential influence of the bacterial accessory genome on interactions with host immune mediators. Biofilm assays have been done in the context of VCBP-C (Dishaw et al, 2016). Subsequently, we tested the influence of 50 µg/ml VCBP-C on WT and prophage KO-strains, which include SfPat KO along with neutral (control) regions of the genome. We found that the presence of VCBP-C reduced biofilm formation in WT and phage KO variants at 4 hrs and 24 hrs. However, at 12 hrs, VCBP-C treatment appears to increase biofilm formation in the phage-KO strain. While the role (if any) of SfMu is remains unclear, these preliminary data imply the existence of a feedback circuit (influenced by time) where immune effector binding and prophage influence on host gene expression together shape retention outcomes in the gut microbiome. This hypothesis remains to be tested further.

      Author response image 1.

      WT S. fidelis 3313 was exposed in vitro to 50 µg/ml VCBP-C in stationary cultures. Biofilms were observed for 24hrs.  At 12 hrs, the presence of VCBP-C increased the amount of biofilms, whereas reduced biofilms were observed at 4 and 24hrs. Our findings (manuscript Fig 2a) reveal that SfPat contributes to biofilm formation, exposure to SfPat deletion mutants increases host VCBP-C expression (manuscript Fig. 4a), and VCBP-C binding to WT S. fidelis 3313 reduces the expression of SfPat P5 capsid protein (manuscript Fig. 5). These findings suggest that in vivo exposure/ colonization assays benefit from detailed time-course observations to be further explored in follow-up, future experiments.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      In this manuscript, Natarajan and colleagues report on the role of a prophage, termed SfPat, in the regulation of motility and biofilm formation by the marine bacterium Shewanella fidelis. The authors investigate the in vivo relevance of prophage carriage by studying the gut occupation patterns of Shewanella fidelis wild-type and an isogenic SfPat- mutant derivative in a model organism, juveniles of the marine tunicate Ciona robusta. The role of bacterial prophages in regulating bacterial lifestyle adaptation and niche occupation is a relatively underexplored field, and efforts in this direction are appreciated.

      While the research question is interesting, the work presented lacks clarity in its support for several major claims, and, at times, the authors do not adequately explain their data.

      Major concerns:

      (1) Prophage deletion renders the SfPat- mutant derivative substantially less motile and with a higher biofilm formation capacity than the WT (Fig. 2a-b). The authors claim the mutant is otherwise isogenic to the WT strain upon sequence comparison of draft genome sequences (I'll take the opportunity to comment here that GenBank accessions are preferable to BioSample accessions in Table 1). Even in the absence of secondary mutations, complementation is needed to validate functional associations (i.e., phenotype restoration). A strategy for this could be phage reintegration into the mutant strain (PMID: 19005496).

      We are currently investigating complementation strategies. However, there have been some challenges in re-infecting and/or reintegrating the prophage into the genome. A preferred integration site may be damaged due to the deletion approach. While the SfPat prophage has mostly predicted genes of unknown function or significance, we have begun prioritizing the deletion of distinct segments to help identify functional relevance.

      (2) The authors claim that the downshift in motility (concomitant with an upshift in biofilm formation) is likely mediated by the activity of c-di-GMP turnover proteins. Specifically, the authors point to the c-di-GMP-specific phosphodiesterase PdeB as a key mediator, after finding lower transcript levels for its coding gene in vivo (lines 148-151, Fig. 2c), and suggesting higher activity of this protein in live animals (!)(line 229). I have several concerns here:

      (2.1) Findings shown in Fig. 2a-b are in vitro, yet no altered transcript levels for pdeB were recorded (Fig. 2c). Why do the authors base their inferences only on in vivo data?

      (2.2) Somewhat altered transcript levels alone are insufficient for making associations, let alone solid statements. Often, the activity of c-di-GMP turnover proteins is local and/or depends on the activation of specific sensory modules - in the case of PdeB, a PAS domain and a periplasmic sensor domain (PMID: 35501424). This has not been explored in the manuscript, i.e., specific activation vs. global alterations of cellular c-di-GMP pools (or involvement of other proteins, please see below). Additional experiments are needed to confirm the involvement of PdeB. Gaining such mechanistic insights would greatly enhance the impact of this study.

      (2.3) What is the rationale behind selecting only four genes to probe the influence of the prophage on Ciona gut colonization by determining their transcript levels in vitro and in vivo? If the authors attribute the distinct behavior of the mutant to altered c-di-GMP homeostasis, as may be plausible, why did the authors choose those four genes specifically and not, for example, the many other c-di-GMP turnover protein-coding genes or c-di-GMP effectors present in the S. fidelis genome? This methodological approach seems inadequate to me, and the conclusions on the potential implication of PdeB are premature.

      We chose to study genes that were shown previously to influence biofilms and motility in a cyclic-di-GMP dependent manner in a Shewanella spp (Chao et al 2013, S Rakshe 2011). Future transcriptomic efforts and targeted deletion approaches will further define the specific influence of prophages.

      (3) The behavior of the WT strain and the prophage deletion mutant is insufficiently characterized. For instance, how do the authors know that the higher retention capacity reported for the WT strain with respect to the mutant (Fig. 3b) is not merely a consequence of, e.g., a higher growth rate? It would be worth investigating this further, ideally under conditions reflecting the host environment.

      To clarify the method, in vitro growth curves did not suggest any significant difference in growth rate between the WT and the deletion mutant strains. Subsequently, for the in vivo experiments, bacterial cultures were pelleted and resuspended in sterile, nutrient-free artificial seawater. This limits growth until the bacterial strains are introduced to the animals.

      (4) Related to the above, sometimes the authors refer to "retention" (e.g., line 162) and at other instances to "colonization" (e.g., line 161), or even adhesion (line 225). These are distinct processes. The authors have only tracked the presence of bacteria by fluorescence labeling; adhesion or colonization has not been assessed or demonstrated in vivo. Please revise.

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback; the manuscript has been revised accordingly. While we refer to our assays as ‘colonization assays,’ we report results of ‘retention’ of various bacterial strains in the ‘exposed’ animals. Furthermore, when fluorescent staining is utilized, we report retention in defined niches. Since colonization is likely a two-step process, i.e., 1) retention and 2) colonization or long-term establishment of these microbial communities, using these terms correctly is warranted. In separate (unpublished) surveys of adult animals taken from the field, identical strains have been recovered numerous times over a twelve-year period.

      (5) The higher CFU numbers for the WT after 24 h (line 161) might also indicate a role of motility for successful niche occupation or dissemination in vivo. The authors could test this hypothesis by examining the behavior of, e.g., flagellar mutants in their in vivo model.

      Interestingly, we find numerous flagellar/motility-associated protein coding genes like Flg, Fli and Fle present within the S. fidelis genome possessing an EAL domain, implicating them in the regulation of cyclic-di-GMP. Hence, a future global transcriptomic approach will help improve our understanding of the roles of these regulatory pathways.

      (6) The endpoint of experiments with a mixed WT-mutant inoculum (assumedly 1:1? Please specify) was set to 1 h, I assume because of the differences observed in CFU counts after 24 h. In vivo findings shown in Fig. 3c-e are, prima facie, somewhat contradictory. The authors report preferential occupation of the esophagus by the WT (line 223), which seems proficient from evidence shown in Fig. S3. Yet, there is marginal presence of the WT in the esophagus in experiments with a mixed inoculum (Fig. 3d) or none at all (Fig. 3e). Likewise, the authors claim preferential "adhesion to stomach folds" by the mutant strain (line 225), but this is not evident from Fig. 3e. In fact, the occupation patterns by the WT and mutant strain in the stomach in panel 3e appear to differ from what is shown in panel 3d. The same holds true for the claimed "preferential localization of the WT in the pyloric cecum," with Fig. 3d showing a yellow signal that indicates the coexistence of WT and mutant.

      The results section is reworded to improve clarity. The WT and KO are mixed 1:1 to achieve the 10<sup>7</sup> cfu count.

      (7) In general, and especially for in vivo data, there is considerable variability that precludes drawing conclusions beyond mere trends. One could attribute such variability in vivo to the employed model organism (which is not germ-free), differences between individuals, and other factors. This should be discussed more openly in the main text and presented as a limitation of the study.

      Yes, a salient feature of this model is that we can leverage genetic diversity in our experimental design, but it can introduce experimental variability.

      Even with such intrinsic factors affecting in vivo measurements, certain in vitro experiments, which are expected, in principle, to yield more reproducible results, also show high variability (e.g., Fig. 5). What do the authors attribute this variability to?

      For experiments involving VCBP-C protein, we can use affinity-purified protein recovered from live animals, or recombinant protein that we synthesize in-house (Dishaw et al 2011, 2016). In the latter, we often observe slight lot-to-lot variation in affinity for the target (the bacterial surface). To account for this variation and to ensure the observations are robust despite it, production lots can be mixed in additional biological replicates. As such, slight variability in the in vitro assays can be due to this batch effect.

      (8) Line 198-199: Why not look for potential prophage excision directly rather than relying on indirect, presumptive evidence based on qPCR?

      The decision to rely on qPCR of prophage structural genes was based on preliminary data, in particular among lysogens possessing more than one prophage. Neither the plaque assay nor SYBR Gold staining could distinguish among the particles, and TEM imaging was not sufficiently qualitative. Since these prophages do not exclusively produce particles when induced, qPCR targeting structural proteins was found to be most informative.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Other major comments:

      Line 137 (and Fig. 2 legend): The authors did not test chemotaxis towards any specific chemoeffector, only motility. Please correct and see below my comments about motility assays.

      The reviewer is correct; we have modified our descriptors.

      Lines 142-144: The authors conflate quorum sensing with c-di-GMP metabolism. If the authors measured the expression of genes "regulating cyclic di-GMP," it is likely because c-di-GMP is known to regulate the switch between planktonic and sessile lifestyles. However, whether this is mediated by quorum sensing is a separate issue that was not explored in this work. Please revise.

      Thank you; these changes were made accordingly.

      Line 150: c-di-GMP is not a quorum sensing signal; please correct.

      Yes, we corrected the inadvertent yet misleading statement.

      Line 193: Please clarify "RNA was extracted from the biofilms." If S. fidelis was grown on "MA [Marine Agar] for 24 h in the presence or absence of 50 µg/ml VCBP-C" (lines 192-193), was RNA isolated from colonies growing on the plates? Was VCBP-C added to the agar? This is also unclear in the Methods section (lines 381-384), where it seems the authors conducted this experiment using broth cultures in multiwell plates, removing the supernatant, and extracting RNA from the biofilms (i.e., cells adhered to the walls and bottom of the wells?). Why only biofilm cells?

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have rewritten the appropriate sections and methods to improve clarity. Following our initial studies, which revealed differential bacterial phenotypes (biofilm formation and motility assays), we decided to target and investigate gene expression in the biofilms. This way, the sessile cells that were not part of the biofilm do not obfuscate the data.

      Lines 204-205: The authors should refer to the behavior of the mutant, since they did not test what happens upon prophage integration, but after prophage deletion.

      The wording has been changed accordingly.

      Lines 206-207: Please explain why the authors state that "these different bacterial phenotypes" (referring to altered biofilm formation and motility) "influence host immune responses in a manner consistent with influences on gut colonization dynamics". What specific relationship are the authors suggesting between these processes, and in what way is this "consistent"?

      We previously demonstrated (Dishaw et al 2016) that copious amounts of VCBP-C protein are present under normal conditions in the gut and mostly found tethered to chitin-rich mucus lining the gut epithelium. The up-regulation of VCBP-C within one hour of exposure to the SfPat mutant relative to the WT S. fidelis is consistent with a role for VCBP-C in modulating bacterial settlement dynamics (Dishaw et al 2016). The mutant phenotype of reduced swimming and increased biofilm production is a likely trigger for the increased production of this secreted immune effector that may influence the retention of this bacterial variant, relative to the WT.

      Line 229: Apart from what I noted above about the authors' claim regarding PdeB activity, I believe the figure referred to here should be Fig. 2, not Fig. 5.

      Thank you for catching that oversight. It has been corrected.

      Figure 1: Was hypothetical protein 2 included in the deletion?

      Yes, the hypothetical protein 2 was included in the deletion

      Figure 3a-b: It is challenging to interpret data on plots using so many colors - including what appears to be a white circle (?) in Fig. 3a. How many replicates are represented here? Is it indeed n=3 in Fig. 3a and n=6 in Fig. 3b?  

      Figure 3a is a bee swarm plot. Each color represents biological replicates, and the smaller circles represent technical replicates. It facilitates showing ALL the data, including the spread of the data. Regarding the number replicates, 3a and 3b are different experiments, with 3a representing a biofilm assay with three biological replicates and 3b a motility assay with six biological replicates.

      Figure 3: An explanation for the abbreviation "FP" is missing.

      Thank you for catching this oversight. The abbreviation has been defined.

      Figure S3: FP, which is proficiently occupied by the WT strain (Fig. S3a), is not labeled in the images provided for the mutant (Fig. S3c-d). It would be helpful to show it for comparison.

      Those other images did not have fecal pellets to label; however, Figure 3c does show a fecal pellet for an animal exposed to both WT and the SfPat mutant.

      Questions and comments regarding methods:

      Lines 290-291, 307: Please indicate an approximate range for "room temperature."

      The information has been added to the revised manuscript.

      Lines 292, 302: Why use hybrid LB/MB broth and agar? And strictly speaking, which LB formula (Lennox/Luria/Miller)?

      The hybrid broth reduces the concentration of salts that can interfere in some assays. The LB formula was Luria, and it is now included in the manuscript.

      Lines 300-302: The conjugation procedure is poorly described. It seems the authors conducted conjugal transfer by biparental mating in broth culture by inoculating a single colony of S. fidelis 3313 into an already grown culture of the E. coli donor strain?

      The biparental mating was done on plates; the manuscript has been clarified.

      Motility assay concerns:

      Swimming motility is generally assayed in soft agar (0.25-0.3% w/v). Why did the authors use 0.5% low-melt agarose? Usually, agar is employed instead of agarose, and such a high concentration of solidifying agent typically prevents proper swimming (see e.g. Kearns 2010).

      Our laboratory uses low-melt agarose for phage propagation and other assays. We continued using it because we observed robust and reproducible results in the swarming and swimming motility assays. In addition, 0.5% agarose is less dense than 0.5% agar, and its consistency is similar to that of the lower percentage soft agar.

      Lines 316-317: Please clarify: what is the "overlay motility assay" that was carried out "overnight at RT and then inoculated onto the center of soft agar"? Was this a two-step experiment? How were bacteria inoculated (stabbed, injected)? If injected, what volume and cell density were used?

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. The methods section has been revised for clarity.

      Line 319: Each variable tested in duplicate? From what I understand, the only variable measured in this test is the diameter of the swimming halos. Do the authors mean they used two biological replicates? If so, please indicate the number of technical replicates as well.

      Multiple biological replicates were performed, each time with two technical replicates. Two perpendicular measurements (of diameter) for each technical replicate was recorded to avoid bias. The methods section has been edited to improve clarity.

      Line 320: Were the swimming halos asymmetrical, hence the need to take two perpendicular measurements? If that was the case, it could indicate an excessive amount of solidifying agent.

      The halos were sometimes asymmetric, but to avoid variation across datasets, it became standard practice to measure perpendicular distances as stated above. 

      Regarding qPCR experiments:

      Please clarify how normalization of transcript levels was performed.

      It seems the authors conducted a double normalization, first with respect to the calibrator (rho), and again using the wild-type as a baseline reference for fold-change calculations (absence of error bars for WT data). If so, please specify on the vertical axes of the figures and in the Methods/figure legends.

      Since, in addition to rho, the authors assessed the expression stability of the "housekeeping" genes gyrB and recA, please also include the primers used for these genes.

      The appropriate manuscript sections have been updated for clarity. The bacterial qPCR was normalized to an internal standard, and then relative expression differences between SfPat and the WT were determined. The missing primer sequences have also been added.

      Observations:

      Figure 2a-b: It is intriguing that the remarkable reduction in motility of the mutant is not associated with a comparably significant increase in biofilm formation.

      A statistically significant increase in biofilm was observed, along with a decrease in motility. As is common in crystal violet assays, some of the tertiary structures were not very stable and likely washed out during processing.

      Additionally, it is noteworthy that data for the mutant in panel 2a exhibit minimal variability, with all OD570 recordings being around 3.0. Did the authors dilute the crystal violet elution solution after adding acetic acid, or might they have reached the saturation limit of the spectrophotometer?

      The eluted acetic acid was not diluted further, and significant changes were observed. If the solution had been further diluted, the observed changes might have been more pronounced. 

      Minor comments and recommendations:

      All the suggested changes below have been incorporated

      • Line 55: "Antibiotic resistance determinants" might be preferable to "genes" to avoid using "genes" twice in the same sentence.

      • Line 75-76: Italicize Pseudomonas aeruginosa.

      • Line 134: Instead of "at least," specify the average fold-change.

      • Line 141: In the heading, refer to the influence of the "prophage" (singular) rather than "prophages" (plural).

      • Discussion (style): Consider using past tense for phrases like "we utilize..." (line 202); "we find..." (line 204), etc.

      • Line 365 and elsewhere: Consider "mRNA levels" or "transcript levels" instead of "gene expression".

      • Table 3: UQ950 is a strain, not a plasmid. I assume the plasmid carried by UQ950 is pSMV3.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We would like to thank all the reviewers for their positive evaluation of our paper, as described in the Strengths section. We are also grateful for their helpful comments and suggestions, which we have addressed below. We believe that the manuscript has been significantly improved as a result of these suggestions. In addition to these changes, we also corrected some inconsistencies (statistical values in the last sentence of a Figure 5 caption) and sentences in the main text (lines 155, 452, 522) (these corrections did not affect the results).

      Fig. 5e: R=0.599, P<0.001 -> R=0.601, P=0.007

      L150: "the angle of stick tilt angle" -> "the angle of stick tilt"

      L437: "no such" -> "such"

      L522: "?" -> "."

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary/Strengths:

      This manuscript describes a stimulating contribution to the field of human motor control. The complexity of control and learning is studied with a new task offering a myriad of possible coordination patterns. Findings are original and exemplify how baseline relationships determine learning.

      Weaknesses:

      A new task is presented: it is a thoughtful one, but because it is a new one, the manuscript section is filled with relatively new terms and acronyms that are not necessarily easy to rapidly understand.

      First, some more thoughts may be devoted to the take-home message. In the title, I am not sure manipulating a stick with both hands is a key piece of information. Also, the authors appear to insist on the term ‘implicit’, and I wonder if it is a big deal in this manuscript and if all the necessary evidence appears in this study that control and adaptation are exclusively implicit. As there is no clear comparison between gradual and abrupt sessions, the authors may consider removing at least from the title and abstract the words ‘implicit’ and ‘implicitly’. Most importantly, the authors may consider modifying the last sentence of the abstract to clearly provide the most substantial theoretical advance from this study.

      Thank you for your positive comment on our paper. We agree with the reviewer that our paper used a lot of acronyms that might confuse the readers. As we have addressed below (in the rebuttal to the Results section), we have reduced the number of acronyms.

      Regarding the comment on the use of the word “implicit” in the title and the abstract, we believe that its use in this paper is very important and indispensable. One of our main findings was that the pattern of adaptation between the tip-movement direction and the stick-tilt angle largely followed that in the baseline condition when aiming at different target directions. This adaptation was largely implicit because participants were not aware of the presence of the perturbation as the amount of perturbation was gradually increased. This implicitness suggests that the adaptation pattern of how the movement should be corrected is embedded in the motor learning system. On the other hand, if this adaptation pattern was achieved on the basis of the explicit strategy of changing the direction of the tip-movement, the adaptation pattern that follows the baseline pattern is not at all surprising. For these reasons, we will continue to use the word "implicit".

      It seems that a substantial finding is the ‘constraint’ imposed by baseline control laws on sensorimotor adaptation. This seems to echo and extend previous work of Wu, Smith et al. (Nat Neurosci, 2014): their findings, which were not necessarily always replicated, suggested that the more participants were variable in baseline, the better they adapted to a systematic perturbation. The authors may study whether residual errors are smaller or adaptation is faster for individuals with larger motor variability in baseline. Unfortunately, the authors do not present the classic time course of sensorimotor adaptation in any experiment. The adaptation is not described as typically done: the authors should thus show the changes in tip movement direction and stick-tilt angle across trials, and highlight any significant difference between baseline, early adaptation, and late adaptation, for instance. I also wonder why the authors did not include a few noperturbation trials after the exposure phase to study after-effects in the study design: it looks like a missed opportunity here. Overall, I think that showing the time course of adaptation is necessary for the present study to provide a more comprehensive understanding of that new task, and to re-explore the role of motor variability during baseline for sensorimotor adaptation.

      We appreciate the reviewer for raising these important issues.

      Regarding the learning curve, because the amount of perturbation was gradually increased except for Exp.1B, we were not able to obtain typical learning curves (i.e., the curve showing errors decaying exponentially with trials). However, it may still be useful to show how the movement changed with trials during adaptation. Therefore, following the reviewer's suggestion, we have added the figures of the time course of adaptation in the supplementary data (Figures S1, S2, S4, and S5).

      There are two reasons why our experiments did not include aftereffect quantification trials (i.e., probe trials). First, in the case of adaptation to a visual perturbation (e.g., visual rotation), probe trials are not necessary because the degree of adaptation can be easily quantified by the amount of compensation in the perturbation trials (however, in the case of dynamic perturbations such as force fields, the use of probe trials is necessary). Second, the inclusion of probe trials allows participants to be aware of the presence of the perturbation, which we would like to avoid.

      We also appreciate the interesting additional questions regarding the relevance of our work to the relationship between baseline motor variability and adaptation performance. As this topic, although interesting, is outside the scope of this paper, we concluded that we would not address it in the manuscript. In fact, the experiments were not ideal for quantifying motor variability in the baseline phase because participants had to aim at different targets, which could change the characteristics of motor variability. In addition, we gradually increased the size of the perturbation except for Exp.1B (see Author response image 1, upper panel), which could make it difficult to assess the speed of adaptation. Nevertheless, we think it is worth mentioning this point in this rebuttal. Specifically, we examined the correlation between baseline motor variability when aiming the 0 deg target (tip-movement direction or stick-tilt angle) and adaptation speed in Exp 1A and Exp 1B (Author response image 1 and Author response image 2). To assess adaptation speed in Exp.1A, we quantified the slope of the tip-movement direction to a gradually increasing perturbation (Author response image 1, upper panel). The adaptation speed in Exp.1B was obtained by fitting the exponential function to the data (Author response image 2, upper panel). Although the statistical results were not completely consistent, we found that the participants with greater the motor variability at baseline tended to show faster adaptation, as shown in a previous study (Wu et al., Nat Neurosci, 2014).

      Author response image 1.

      Correlation between the baseline variability and learning speed (Experiment 1A). In Exp 1A, the rotation of the tip-movement direction was gradually increased by 1 degree per trial up to 30 degrees. The learning speed was quantified by calculating how quickly the direction of movement followed the perturbation (upper panel). The lower left panel shows the variability of the tip-movement direction versus learning speed, while the lower right panel shows the variability of the stick-tilt angle versus learning speed. Baseline variability was calculated as a standard deviation across trials (trials in which a target appeared in a 0-degree direction).

      Author response image 2.

      Correlation between the baseline variability and learning speed (Experiment 1B). In Exp 1B, the rotation of the tip-movement direction was abruptly applied from the first trial (30 degrees). The learning speed was calculated as a time constant obtained by exponential curve fitting. The lower left panel shows the variability of the tip-movement direction versus learning speed, while the lower right panel shows the variability of the stick-tilt angle versus learning speed. Baseline variability was calculated as a standard deviation across trials (trials in which a target appeared in a 0-degree direction).

      The distance between hands was fixed at 15 cm with the Kinarm instead of a mechanical constraint. I wonder how much this distance varied and more importantly whether from that analysis or a force analysis, the authors could determine whether one hand led the other one in the adaptation.

      Thank you very much for this important comment. Since the distance between the two hands was maintained by the stiff virtual spring (2000 N/m), it was kept almost constant throughout the experiments as shown in Author response image 3 (the averaged distance during a movement). The distance was also maintained during reaching movements (Author response image 4).

      We also thank the reviewer for the suggestion regarding the force analysis. As shown in Author response image 5, we did not find a role for a specific hand for motor adaptation from the handle force data. Specifically, Author response image 5 shows the force applied to each handle along and orthogonal to the stick. If one hand led the other in adaptation, we should have observed a phase shift as adaptation progressed. However, no such hand specific phase shift was observed. It should be noted, however, that it was theoretically difficult to know from the force sensors which hand produced the force first, because the force exerted by the right handle was transmitted to the left handle and vice versa due to the connection by the stiff spring. 

      Author response image 3.

      The distance between hands during the task. We show the average distance between hands for each trial. The shaded area indicates the standard deviation across participants.

      Author response image 4.

      Time course changes in the distance between hands during the movement. The color means the trial epoch shown in the right legend.

      Author response image 5.

      The force profile during the movement (Exp 1A). We decomposed the force of each handle into the component along (upper panels) and orthogonal to the stick (lower panels). Changes in the force profiles in the adaptation phase are shown (left: left hand force, right: right hand force). The colors (magenta to cyan) mean trial epoch shown in the right legend.

      I understand the distinction between task- and end-effector irrelevant perturbation, and at the same time results show that the nervous system reacts to both types of perturbation, indicating that they both seem relevant or important. In line 32, the errors mentioned at the end of the sentence suggest that adaptation is in fact maladaptive. I think the authors may extend the Discussion on why adaptation was found in the experiments with end-effector irrelevant and especially how an internal (forward) model or a pair of internal (forward) models may be used to predict both the visual and the somatosensory consequences of the motor commands.

      Thank you very much for your comment. As we already described in the discussion of the original manuscript (Lines 519-538 in the revised manuscript), two potential explanations exist for the motor system’s response to the end-effector irrelevant perturbation (i.e., stick rotation). First, the motor system predicts the sensory information associated with the action and attempts to correct any discrepancies between the prediction and the actual sensory consequences, regardless of whether the error information is end-effector relevant or end-effector irrelevant. Second, given the close coupling between the tip-movement direction and stick-tilt angle, the motor system can estimate the presence of end-effector relevant error (i.e., tip-movement direction) by the presence of end-effector irrelevant error (i.e., stick-tilt angle). This estimation should lead to the change in the tip-movement direction. As the reviewer pointed out, the mismatch between visual and proprioceptive information is another possibility, we have added the description of this point in Discussion (Lines 523-526).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor

      Line 16: “it remains poorly understood” is quite subjective and I would suggest reformulating this statement.

      We have reformulated this statement as “This limitation prevents the study of how….”  (Line 16).

      Introduction

      Line 49: the authors may be more specific than just saying ‘this task’. In particular, they need to clarify that there is no redundancy in studies where the shoulder is fixed and all movement is limited to a plane ... which turns out to truly happen in a limited set of experimental setups (for example: Kinarm exoskeleton, but not endpoint; Kinereach system...).

      We have changed this to “such a planar arm-reaching task” (Line 49).

      Line 61: large, not infinite because of biomechanical constraints.

      We have changed “an infinite” to “a large” (Line 61) and “infinite” to “a large number of” (legend in Fig. 1f).

      Lines 67-69: consider clarifying.

      We have tried to clarify the sentence (Lines 67-69).

      Results

      TMD and STA, and TMD-STA plane, are new terms with new acronyms that are not easy to immediately understand. Consider avoiding acronyms.

      We have reduced the use of these acronyms as much as possible. 

      “visual TMD–STA plane” -> “plane representing visual movement patterns” (Lines 179180)

      “TMD axis” -> “x-axis” (Line 181, Line 190)

      “physical TMD–STA plane” -> “plane representing physical movement patterns” (Lines 182-187)

      “physical TMD–STA plane” -> “physical plane” (Line 191, Line 201, Lines 216-217, Line 254, Line 301, Line 315, Line 422, Line 511, and captions of Figures 4-9, S3)

      “visual TMD–STA plane” -> “visual plane” (Line 193, Line 241, Line 248, Line 300, Lines

      313-314, and captions of Figures 4-9, S3)

      “STA axis” -> “y-axis” (Line 241)

      Line 169: please clarify the mismatch(es) that are created when the tip-movement direction is visually rotated in the CCW direction around the starting position (tip perturbation), whereas the stick-tilt angle remains unchanged.

      Thank you for your pointing this out. We have clarified that the stick-tilt angle remains identical to the tilt of both hands (Lines 171-172).

      Discussion

      I understand the physical constraint imposed between the 2 hands with the robotic device, but I am not sure I understand the physical constraint imposed by the TMD-STA relationship.

      The phrase “physical constraint” meant the constraint of the movement on the physical space. However, as the reviewer pointed out, this phrase could confuse the constraint between the two hands. Therefore, we have avoided using the phrase “physical constraint” throughout the manuscript.

      Some work looking at 3-D movements should be used for Discussion (e.g. Lacquaniti & Soechting 1982; work by d’Avella A or Jarrasse N).

      Thank you for sharing this important information. We have cited these studies in Discussion (Lines 380-382). 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors have developed a novel bimanual task that allows them to study how the sensorimotor control system deals with redundancy within our body. Specifically, the two hands control two robot handles that control the position and orientation of a virtual stick, where the end of the stick is moved into a target. This task has infinite solutions to any movement, where the two hands influence both tip-movement direction and stick-tilt angle. When moving to different targets in the baseline phase, participants change the tilt angle of the stick in a specific pattern that produces close to the minimum movement of the two hands to produce the task. In a series of experiments, the authors then apply perturbations to the stick angle and stick movement direction to examine how either tipmovement (task-relevant) or stick-angle (task-irrelevant) perturbations affect adaptation. Both types of perturbations affect adaptation, but this adaptation follows the baseline pattern of tip-movement and stick angle relation such that even task-irrelevant perturbations drive adaptation in a manner that results in task-relevant errors. Overall, the authors suggest that these baseline relations affect how we adapt to changes in our tasks. This work provides an important demonstration that underlying solutions/relations can affect the manner in which we adapt. I think one major contribution of this work will also be the task itself, which provides a very fruitful and important framework for studying more complex motor control tasks.

      Strengths:

      Overall, I find this a very interesting and well-written paper. Beyond providing a new motor task that could be influential in the field, I think it also contributes to studying a very important question - how we can solve redundancy in the sensorimotor control system, as there are many possible mechanisms or methods that could be used - each of which produces different solutions and might affect the manner in which we adapt.

      Weaknesses:

      I would like to see further discussion of what the particular chosen solution implies in terms of optimality.

      The underlying baseline strategy used by the participants appears to match the path of minimum movement of the two hands. This suggests that participants are simultaneously optimizing accuracy and minimizing some metabolic cost or effort to solve the redundancy problem. However, once the perturbations are applied, participants still use this strategy for driving adaptation. I assume that this means that the solution that participants end up with after adaptation actually produces larger movements of the two hands than required. That is - they no longer fall onto the minimum hand movement strategy - which was used to solve the problem. Can the authors demonstrate that this is either the case or not clearly? These two possibilities produce very different implications in terms of the results.

      If my interpretation is correct, such a result (using a previously found solution that no longer is optimal) reminds me of the work of Selinger et al., 2015 (Current Biology), where participants continue to walk at a non-optimal speed after perturbations unless they get trained on multiple conditions to learn the new landscape of solutions. Perhaps the authors could discuss their work within this kind of interpretation. Do the authors predict that this relation would change with extensive practice either within the current conditions or with further exploration of the new task landscape? For example, if more than one target was used in the adaptation phase of the experiment?

      On the other hand, if the adaptation follows the solution of minimum hand movement and therefore potentially effort, this provides a completely different interpretation.

      Overall, I would find the results even more compelling if the same perturbations applied to movements to all of the targets and produced similar adaptation profiles. The question is to what degree the results derive from only providing a small subset of the environment to explore.

      Thank you very much for pointing out this significant issue. As the reviewer correctly interprets, the physical movement patterns deviated from the baseline relationship as exemplified in Exp.2. However, this deviation is not surprising for the following reason. Under the perturbation that creates the dissociation between the hands and the stick, the motor system cannot simultaneously return both the visual stick motion and physical hands motion to the original motions: When the motor system tries to return the visual stick motion to the original visual motion, then the physical hands motion inevitably deviates from the original physical hands motion, and vice versa.  

      Our interpretation of this result is that the motor system corrects the movement to reduce the visual dissociation of the visual stick motion from the baseline motion (i.e., sensory prediction error), but this movement correction is biased by the baseline physical hands motion. In other words, the motor system attempts to balance the minimization of sensory prediction error and the minimization of motor cost. Thus, our results do not indicate that the final adaptation pattern is non-optimal, but rather reflect the attempts for optimization.

      In the revised manuscript, we have added the description of this interpretation (Lines 515-517).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors have suggested that the only study (line 472) that has also examined an end-effector irrelevant perturbation is the bimanual study of Omrani et al., 2013, which only examined reflex activity rather than adaptation. To clarify this issue - exactly what is considered end-effector irrelevant perturbations - I was wondering about the bimanual perturbations in Dimitriou et al., 2012 (J Neurophysiol) and the simultaneous equal perturbations in Franklin et al., 2016 (J Neurosci), as well as other recent papers studying task-irrelevant disturbances which aren’t discussed. I would consider these both to also be end-effector irrelevant perturbations, although again they only used these to study reflex activity and not adaptation as in the current paper. Regardless, further explanation of exactly what is the difference between task-irrelevant and end-effector irrelevant would be useful to clarify the exact difference between the current manuscript and previous work.

      Thank you for your helpful comments. We have included as references the study by Dimitriou et al. (Line 490) and Franklin et al. (Lines 486-487), which use an endeffector irrelevant perturbation and the task-irrelevant perturbation condition, respectively. We have also added further explanation of what is the difference between task-irrelevant and end-effector irrelevant (Lines 344-352). 

      Line 575: I assume that you mean peak movement speed

      We have added “peak”. (Line 597).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study explored how the motor system adapts to new environments by modifying redundant body movements. Using a novel bimanual stick manipulation task, participants manipulated a virtual stick to reach targets, focusing on how tip-movement direction perturbations affected both tip movement and stick-tilt adaptation. The findings indicated a consistent strategy among participants who flexibly adjusted the tilt angle of the stick in response to errors. The adaptation patterns are influenced by physical space relationships, guiding the motor system’s choice of movement patterns. Overall, this study highlights the adaptability of the motor system through changes in redundant body movement patterns.

      Strengths:

      This paper introduces a novel bimanual stick manipulation task to investigate how the motor system adapts to novel environments by altering the movement patterns of our redundant body.

      Weaknesses:

      The generalizability of the findings is quite limited. It would have been interesting to see if the same relationships were held for different stick lengths (i.e., the hands positioned at different start locations along the virtual stick) or when reaching targets to the left and right of a start position, not just at varying angles along one side. Alternatively, this study would have benefited from a more thorough investigation of the existing literature on redundant systems instead of primarily focusing on the lack of redundancy in endpointreaching tasks. Although the novel task expands the use of endpoint robots in motor control studies, the utility of this task for exploring motor control and learning may be limited.

      Thank you very much for the important comment. Given that there are many parameters (e.g., stick length, locations of hands, target position etc), one may wonder how the findings obtained from only one combination can be generalized to other configurations. In the revised manuscript, we have explicitly described this point (Lines 356-359). 

      Thus, the generalizability needs to be investigated in future studies, but we believe that the main results also apply to other configurations. Regarding the baseline stick movement pattern, the control with tilting the stick was observed regardless of the stick-tip positions (Author response image 6). Regarding the finding that the adapted stick movement patterns follow the baseline movement patterns, we confirmed the same results even when the other targets were used as the target for the adaptation (Author response image 7). 

      Author response image 6.

      Stick-tip manipulation patterns when the length of the stick varied. Top: 10 naïve participants moved the stick with different lengths. A target appeared on one of five directions represented by a color of each tip position. Regardless of the length of the stick and laterality, a similar relationship between tip-movement direction and stick-tilt angle was observed. (middle: at peak velocity, bottom: at movement offset).

      Author response image 7.

      Patterns of adaptation when using the other targets. In the baseline phase, 40 naïve participants moved a stick tip to a peripheral target (24 directions). They showed a stereotypical relationship between the tip-movement direction and the stick-tilt angle (a bold gray curve). In the adaptation phase, participants were divided into four groups, each with a different target training direction (lower left, lower right, upper right, or upper left), and visual rotation was gradually imposed on the tip-movement direction. Irrespective of the target direction, the adaptation pattern of the tipmovement and stick-tilt followed with the baseline relationship.

      We also thank you for your comment about studying the existing redundant systems. We can understand the reviewer's concern about the usefulness of our task, but we believe that we have proposed the novel framework for motor adaptation in the redundant system. The future studies will be able to clarify how the knowledge gained from our task can be generally applied to understand the control and learning of the redundant system.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Line 49: replace “uniquely” with primarily. A number of features of the task setup could affect the joint angles, from if/how the arm is supported, whether the wrist is fixed, alignment of the target in relation to the midline of the participant, duration of the task, and whether fatigue is an issue, etc. Your statement relates to fixed limb lengths of a participant, rather than standard reaching tasks as a whole. Not to mention the degree of inter- and intra-subject variability that does exist in point-to-point reaching tasks.

      Thank you for your helpful point. We have replaced “uniquely” with “primarily”. (Line 49).

      Line 72: the cursor is not an end-effector - it represents the end-effector.

      We have changed the expression as “the perturbation to the cursor representing the position of the end-effector (Line 72).

      Lines 73 – 78: it would benefit the authors to consider the role of intersegmental dynamics.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We are not sure if we understand this suggestion correctly, but we interpret that this suggestion to mean that the end-effector perturbation can be implemented by using the perturbation that considers the intersegmental dynamics. However, the implementation is not so straightforward, and the panels in Figure 1j,k are only conceptual for the end-effector irrelevant perturbation. Therefore, we have not described the contribution of intersegmental dynamics here.

      Lines 90 – 92: “cannot” should be “did not”, as the studies being referenced are already completed. This statement should be further unpacked to explain what they did do, and how that does not meet the requirement of redundancy in movement patterns.

      We have changed “cannot” to “did not” (Line 91). We have also added the description of what the previous studies had demonstrated (Line 88-90).

      Figure text could be enlarged for easier viewing.

      We have enlarged texts in all figures. 

      Lines 41 - 47: Interesting selection of supporting references. For the introduction of a novel environment, I would recommend adding the support of Shadmehr and MussaIvaldi 1994.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have added Shadmehr and Mussa-Ivaldi 1994 as a reference (Line 45).

      Line 49: “this task” is vague - the above references relate to a number of different tasks. For example, the authors could replace it with a reaching task involving an end-point robot.

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. As per the suggestion by Reviewer #1, we have changed this to “such a planar arm-reaching task” (Line 49).

      Line 60: “hypothetical limb with three joints” - in Figure 1a, the human subject, holding the handle of a robotic manipulandum does have flexibility around the wrist.

      Previous studies using planar arm-reaching task have constrained the wrist joint (e.g., Flash & Hogan, 1985; Gordon et al., 1994; Nozaki et al., 2006). We tried to emphasize this point as “participants manipulate a visual cursor with their hands primarily by moving their shoulder and elbow joints” (Line 42). In the revised manuscript, we have also emphasized this point in the legend of Figure 1a.

      Lines 93-108: this paragraph could be cleaned up more clearly stating that while the use of task-irrelevant perturbations has been used in the domain of reaching tasks, the focus of these tasks has not been specifically to address “In our task, we aim to exploit this feature by doing”

      Thank you very much for your helpful comments. To make this paragraph clear, we have modified some sentences (Line 100-104).

      Line 109: “coordinates to adapt” is redundant.

      We have changed this to “adapts” (Line 110).

      Lines 109-112: these sentences could be combined to have better flow.

      Thank you very much for your valuable suggestion. We have combined these two sentences for the better flow (Line 110-112).

      Line 113-114: consider rewording - “This is a redundant task because ...” to something like “Redundancy in the task is achieved by acknowledging that ....“.

      We have changed the expression according to the reviewer’s suggestion (Line 114).

      Line 118: Consider changing “changes” to “makes use of”.

      We have changed the expression (Line 119).

      Lines 346 - 348: grammar and clarity - “This redundant motor task enables the investigation of adaptation patterns in the redundant system following the introduction of perturbations that are either end-effector relevant, end-effector irrelevant, or both.“.

      Thank you very much again for your helpful suggestion of English expression. We have adopted the sentence you suggested (Line 354-356).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We deeply appreciate the reviewer comments on our manuscript. We have proceeded with all the minor changes mentioned. We also want to emphasize three major points:

      (1) Reversine has been shown to have several off-targets effects. Including inducing apoptosis (Chen et al. J Bone Oncol. 2024).

      (2) Hypoxia varies from 2% to 6%. Our definition of hypoxia is 5% concentration of oxygen with 5% concentration of CO<sub>2</sub>, taking into consideration the standard levels of oxygen in the IVF clinics. Physiological oxygen in mouse varies from ~1.5% to 8%.

      (3) Natale et al. 2004 (Dev Bio) and Sozen et al. 2015 (Mech of Dev) described that inhibition of p38 deeply affect the development of pre-implantation embryos after the 8-cell stage. For this reason, comprehensible dissect the interaction between p53, HIF1A and p38 during aneuploid stress is challenging. We do not discard a double function of p38 during lineage specification and in response to DNA damage.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Line 69: Please add the species used in your cited publications (murine).

      Fixed

      (2) Line 72: Consider changing "Because" to "As".

      Fixed

      (3) Line 88: "from the nuclei" - please refer to where the reader may find the example provided (Figure S1A).

      Fixed

      (4) Line 89: This should be Figure S1B as no quantification is presented in S1A. S1A only contains examples of micronuclei.

      Fixed

      (5) Line 91: Refer to Figure S1A.

      Fixed

      (6) Line 91-93: Are these numbers correct? The query arises from the numbers presented in Figure S1B. Please define how the median was calculated; is it micronuclei CREST+ plus micronuclei CREST-?

      Fixed. We did not differentiate in these percentage the presence of CREST.

      (7) Line 95: extra/missing bracket?

      Fixed

      (8) Line 88-91:

      [a] Regarding the number of cells with micronuclei in this text, please clarify your sample size and how the percentages were calculated as they currently do not align (e.g., are these the total number of embryos from a single experimental replicate?).

      Also, different numbers are found here and in the figure legend: (DMSO-22/256 cells from 32 embryos; Rev-82/144 cells from 18 embryos; AZ-182/304 cells from 38 embryos) vs. Fig S1 legend (DMSO-n=128 cells; Rev-72 cells; AZ-152 cells).

      [c] Is the median calculated using the numbers presented above? If yes, then the numbers do not tally, please check (DMSO-22/256 cells=8.6%; Rev-82/144 cells=56.9%; AZ-182/304 cells =59.9%) vs. Line 91-93: DMSO=12.5%, Rev=75%; AZ=62.5% blastomeres had micronuclei.

      The percentage represents the average of aneuploidy per embryo after normalization.

      See table for DMSO. This number represents the average of aneuploid cells each aneuploid embryo has. Notice that some embryos are fully diploid. Some have more that 12.5% -> 25%. Most of the aneuploid embryos have 12.5% of aneuploidy. It is not black and white as how many aneuploid cell there is in the sample but a full understanding of how aneuploid are the aneuploid embryos in each sample.

      Author response image 1.

      (9) Line 108:

      [a] "n=28 per treatment" please clarify whether this refers to the number of embryos or cells and also add how many independent replicate experiments this data is representative of. as the text only refers to Figure 1C you can remove the P-values for ** and *.

      Number of embryos. Fixed

      (10) Line 111: Suggest citing Figure 1C at the end of the sentence.

      Fixed

      (11) Line 118-119: the reference to figures require updating to ensure they refer to the appropriate figure; ...decidua (Figure S1C)...viable E9.5 embryos (Figure S1D).

      Fixed

      (12) Line 126: A description of the data in Figures 1D and 1E is missing. Also, consider describing the DNA damage observed in the DMSO control group. Visually, it appears that DNA damage reduces from the 8-cell to the morula stage (Figure 1E) but increases at the blastocyst stage (Figure S2A)? Point for discussion for a normal rate of DNA damage?

      Agree, there is some DNA damage in the TE in blastocyst

      (13) Line 134: 8 EPI and 4 PE cells in what group?

      Fixed: DMSO-treated embryos

      (14) Line 137: Could this also suggest that AZ and reversine induce DNA damage through a different mechanism/pathway, resulting in the differential impact observed? Despite both being inhibitors of Mps1.

      This is a possibility.

      (15) Line 153: the legend for Figure 2A says the Welch t-test was performed, but the Mann-Whitney U-test was stated here. Which is correct?

      Welch’s t-test

      (16) Line 155: ...at the blastocyst stage. Compared to what?

      DMSO-treated embryos

      (17) Line 160: Data in Figure 2B requires the definition of P-values for , , . Please add one for and remove the one for **.

      Fixed

      (18) Line 173-174: Data in Fig. 4 requires the definition of the P-values for ****. Please remove the others.

      Fixed

      (19) Line 180: Instead of jumping across figures, this section would benefit from stating the numbers directly to allow for an accurate comparison, e.g. 64 and 7 in Figure 2D vs. X and Y in Figure 1C.

      (20) Line 187: Hif1a should be italicised.

      Fixed

      (21) Line 197: Based on the description here, I believe you are missing a reference to Figure 1A.

      Fixed

      (22) Line 203: Instead of jumping across figures, this section would benefit from stating the numbers directly to allow for accurate comparison, "particularly in the TE and PE" (67 vs 54; and 11 vs 6, respectively).

      (23) Line 209-210:

      [a] "...lowered the number of yH2AX foci..." is this a visual observation as quantification was performed for yH2AX intensity, not quantification of foci?

      A description for PARP1 levels in morula stage embryos was presented ("...relatively low in morula), but not for yH2AX levels at this stage of development. Missing description?

      Fixed

      (24) Line 235: This sentence would benefit from being specific about the environmental conditions...eg "Under normoxia, DMSO/AZ3146-treated...",

      (25) Line 238: The sentence should reference Figure 4F not 4G.

      Fixed

      (26) Line 242-243:

      [a] "slightly increased... in the TE (49.06%) and PE (50%) but, strikingly, reduced... EPI (33.3%)" compared to what and in which figure?

      Assuming you are comparing normoxia (4F) to hypoxia (4G), the numbers change for the TE (46.75% to 49.06%, respectively), EPI (42.88% to 33.3%, respectively), and PE (28.57% to 50%, respectively); yet these data were described as "strikingly different" for EPI (9.58 decrease) but only "slightly increased" for PE (21.42 increase). Suggest using appropriate adjectives to describe the results.

      Fixed

      (27) Line 256: It is stated in line 255 that treatment was performed at the zygote stage, yet this sentence says reversine treatment occurred at the 2-cell stage? Which is correct? Please amend appropriately. Refer to the comment below regarding adding a schematic to aid readers

      Fixed

      (28) Line 259: "n>27 per treatment" please clarify whether this refers to the number of embryos or cells and also add how many independent replicate experiments this data is representative of. Data in Figures S5A-B requires a definition of P-values for , . Please remove for *, *.

      Fixed

      (29) Line 261: AZ3146/reversine stated here, the figure shows Reversine/AZ3146. Please consider being consistent.

      Fixed

      (30) Line 263: "... normal morphology and cavitation (Figure S5D); however the image presented for Rev/DMSO and Rev/AZ3146 chimeras appear smaller with a distorted/weird shape when compared to DMSO/AZ. I believe the description does not match the images presented.

      Fixed

      (31) Line 267: "...similar results as 8-cell stage derived chimeras"; however, there is only a reference to Fig S5E which depicts 2-cell/zygote stage (see comment above for line 256 regarding required clarification of stage of treatment) derived chimeras. There is also a missing reference to Figure 4B, D, and/or F?

      Fixed

      (32) Line 271: add a reference to Figure S5E.

      Fixed

      (33) Line 283: "AZ3146/reversine" should be "Reversine/AZ3146" to match the figure.

      Fixed

      (34) Line 284: Figures 5E-F show both morphology and cavitation; the text should reflect this.

      Fixed

      (35) Line 281-285: I think this text requires editing to improve clarity. It is difficult for this reader to understand the authors' interpretation of the results....inhibiting HIF1A reduces morphology and cavitation. That's correct. However, this also diminished the contribution of AZ3146-treated cells to all 3 cell lineages; this is not quite accurate. AZ3146-treated cells were significantly reduced in total cell numbers because TE was significantly reduced. It is not appropriate to generalise this result to all 3 lineages, as EPI and TE appear to increase AZ's contribution following IDF treatment, albeit non-statistically significant.

      Fixed

      (36) Line 320: citation? ....reversine-treated embryos. Is this referring to your previous publication...Bolton 2016?

      Fixed

      (37) Line 344: missing space between 7.5 and IU.

      Fixed

      (38) Line 358: animal ethics approval number/code missing.

      Fixed

      (39) Line 397: missing space between "...previously" and "(Bermejo...".

      Fixed

      (40) Line 417: missing space between "...control" and "(Gu et...".

      Fixed

      (41) Line 421: missing space between "protocol" and "(Eakin...".

      Fixed

      (42) Line 427-429: Medium-grade mosaic chimeras were referred to as DMSO:AZ:Rev (3:3:2) here; but Figure 4 and associated legend says otherwise. Please amend appropriately. Were all medium mosaics generated in this manner? As I could only find Rev/AZ chimeras; my understanding of the Rev/AZ chimeras is 1:1 Rev:AZ instead of 3:2:3 DMSO:Rev:AZ.

      Fixed

      (43) Line 428: "reversine-treaded: please correct spelling.

      Fixed

      (44) Line 593: "n=28 per treatment" Please clarify whether this refers to the number of embryos or cells and also add how many independent replicate experiments this data is representative of.

      Fixed

      (45) Line 597: "through morula stage" when compared to what group?

      DMSO-treated embryos

      (46) Line 598: Data in Figure S5A-B requires the definition of P-values for , , **. Please remove for . Please define the error bars. SEM/95% confidence interval?

      Fixed

      (47) Line 604-607: Regarding 2B, no statistical test is stated yet Mann-Whitney was stated in Line 160 of the results section. Please confirm which test was used and include it in both sections for consistency.

      Fixed

      (48) Line 608: "Chemical downregulation of HIF1A"... this is not described in the results/methods section or shown in the figure. Please amend all sections for accuracy.

      Fixed

      (49) Line 613: please change "effect in" to "effect on".

      Fixed

      (50) Line 614: Please clarify the number of embryos or cells and also add how many independent replicate experiments this data is representative of. Data in Figure 2 also requires a definition of P-value for ****.

      Fixed

      (51) Line 625: Please clarify the number of embryos or cells and also add how many independent replicate experiments this data is representative of. Data in Figure 3 also requires a definition of P-value for ****.

      Fixed

      (52) Line 627: description requires editing to improve accuracy "...is only slightly increased at the 8-cell stage after exposure to reversine and AZ3146". However, the results show significantly higher DNA damage with Reversine treatment, but not with AZ when compared to DMSO. Please amend accordingly.

      Fixed

      (53) Line 629: Please define the error bars. SEM/95% confidence interval?

      Fixed

      (54) Line 634-635: it is written here that chimeras were made from 1:1 DMSO/AZ3146 and Reversine/DMSO; but Figure 4A shows 1:1 DMSO(grey):AZ3146(blue), and Reversine(red):AZ3146(blue), which contradicts the legend + method section; see comments for Line 427-429. Please amend these sections accordingly.

      Fixed

      (55) Line 648: reversine/AZ3146 chimeras? Refer to comments above.

      Fixed

      (56) Line 649-650: ...AZ-treated blastomeres contribute similarly to reversine-blastomeres to the TE and EPI but significantly increase contribution to the EPI? Please add the appropriate comparison group.

      Fixed

      (57) Line 652: Please clarify the number of embryos or cells and also add how many independent replicate experiments this data is representative of.

      Fixed

      (58) Line 664: Please clarify the number of embryos or cells and also add how many independent replicate experiments this data is representative of.

      Fixed

      (59) Line 675-677: FigS1B legend requires a definition of P-value for * and ****, can omit **

      Fixed

      (60) Line 678-680: FigS1C and S1D legend: sample size and replicates? Only mentioned in Lines 117-120, which requires back calculation.

      Fixed

      (61) Line 682-694: (1) Fig. S2B legend: missing P-value description for *** and ***; statistical test not stated, please add. Also, Figure S2E, only requires the definition for , and can omit others.

      Fixed

      (62) Line 702: FigS3B: missing description for ****, omit others.

      Fixed

      (63) Line 704-705: missing description for Rev/AZ group and hypoxia vs. normoxia conditions.

      Fixed

      (64) Line 712-713: "n>27 per treatment" Please clarify whether this refers to the number of embryos or cells and also add how many independent replicate experiments this data is representative of. Data in Figure S5 requires the definition of P-values for , . Please remove for *, *.

      Fixed

      (65) Line 713-715: could benefit from a description of which were marked from mTmG; e.g. why is DMSO, Rev, Rev in Green for [D]; does this mean 2-cell stage chimeras were only made with embryos treated with DMSO and Reversine? Has it been tested if you did this with AZ3146, do the proportions remain the same? This would be interesting to know.

      DMSO and reversine are in green because they are the cells mark with green in the chimeras. We also did chimeras with AZ3146. Hope this clarifies.

      (66) Line 719-721: why is there a difference between the proportion of aneuploid cells for the different chimeras? AZ in D/AZ, and R/AZ groups; while only R in D/R group? Is this because you only count those that were marked with mTmG (e.g. based on [Fig S5D])? (67) Line 724: low- and medium-grade chimeras would indicate quality, recommend adding low/medium grade aneuploid/mosaic chimeras.

      Fixed

      (68) Line 725-729: it may be my mistake, but I think the results description is not found within the Results section, but only here in the legend? Please include this detail also in the Results section.

      Fixed

      (69) Line 729: which is AZ or Rev cells?

      (70) References - Page number missing for some references; abbreviated version vs. non abbreviated version of journal titles used. Please be consistent/meet journal requirements.

      Fixed

      (71) Figures

      Figure 1: [C] both AZ-NANOG and DMSO-SOX17 have mean/median(?) of 11 cells (described in results), yet in this figure (on the same axis) these groups are not level. Are the numbers correct? This is also the case for Rev-SOX17 which is described in the results as having 8 cells yet appears to be above the 8 mark in the graphs; AZ-CDX2, which has 64 cells yet appears to be below the 60 mark; AZ-total, which has 82 cells yet appears to be below the 80 mark. In [E] the label orientation, "ns" has both horizontal and vertical orientation. Please make appropriate changes throughout to reflect accuracy.

      Figure 3: [C] As for Figure 1, DMSO-NANOG, which is described in results as having 14 cells, yet appears to be below the 13 mark in the graph; DMSO-SOX17, which has 6 cells yet appears to be above the 7 mark.

      These is due to average

      Figure 4: [D and E] random numerals appear in the bars on the graph. 9,10 and 7, 14? Are these sample size numbers? If they are, they should appear in all bars/groups or in the legend.

      Yes, these are sample sizes

      Figure 5: [D and G] same comment as for Fig 4 above, random numbers in the graph.

      Yes, these are sample sizes

      (72) Supplementary figures. Figure S2 [A] No quantification? This is important to add as representative images are only a 2D plane, which can be easily misinterpreted. [E] Should the y-axis label be written as "Number of cells normalised to DMSO group", or similar? Or is there a figure missing to depict the ratio of cells in each cell lineage normalised to the DMSO group, which is the description written in the legend? But I don't see a figure showing the ratio, just the absolute number of cells. Is this a missing figure or a mislabelled axis?

      Quantification at the blastocyst stage is misleading due to high cellular heterogeneity.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The statement in the abstract: "embryos with a low proportion of aneuploid cells have a similar likelihood of developing to term as fully euploid embryos" Line 48-50 Capalbo does not really answer as the biopsy may not be reflective of ICM.

      This is a great point. Trophectoderm biopsies may not reflect the real proportion of aneuploidy in the ICM. We emphasize this in discussion and Fig. S4.

      (2) Line 69/70, at least 50% Singla et al/Bolton. It would be helpful to elaborate a bit more on this study. How can this be assessed when analysis results in destruction?

      (3) Differences in the developmental potential of reversine versus AZ-treated embryos. It is not entirely clear why. The differences in non-dividing cells if any are small, and the -crest cells are rather minor also. Could these drugs have other effects that are not evaluated in the study?

      Yes, specifically, reversine has been shown to have several off-targets effects. Including inducing apoptosis (Chen et al 2024).

      (4) Lines 45-46 understanding of reduction of aneuploidy should mention/discuss the paper of attrition/selection, of the kind by the Brivanlou lab for instance, or others. As well as allocation to specific lineages, including the authors' work.

      Dr. Brinvanlou experiments in gastruloids do not represent the same developmental stage of pre-implantation embryos. Comparison between models is debatable.

      (5) Line 53: human experiments are more limited due to access to samples. What does 'not allowed' mean? By who, where?

      NIH does not allow to experiment with human embryos for ethical reasons.

      (6) The figure callouts to S1A in lines 93,97. What is a non-dividing nucleus? For how long is it observed?

      A non-dividing nucleus is an accumulation of DNA in a round form without define separation of the chromosomes and their specific kinetochores (CREST antibody). The presence of non-dividing nucleus during the 4 -to-8 cell stage can indicate activation of the spindle assembly checkpoint during prometaphase. Example of non-dividing nucleus can be observed in Fig S1.B.

      (7) Line 108 A relatively minor effect on cell number and quality of blastocysts is observed. It is not surprising that thereafter, developmental potential is also high. At that stage, what are the individual cell karyotypes?

      Due to technical limitations, we can’t determine the specific karyotypes of these cells.

      (8) Line 153. The p53 increase of 1.3 fold is not dramatic.

      The levels of p53 at the morula stage is 7-fold differences. In contrast, at the blastocyst stage, a change in 1.3-fold is indeed less dramatic. This can be a result of the elimination of aneuploid cells or mechanism to counter the activation of the p53 pathway, like overexpression of the Hif1a pathway.

      (9) Line 155. Is there a more direct way to test for p38 activation?

      Natale et al 2004 (Dev Biol) and Sozen et al 2015 (Mech of Dev) described that inhibition of p38 deeply affect the development of pre-implantation embryos after the 8-cell stage. For this reason, comprehensible dissect the interaction between p53, HIF1A and p38 during aneuploid stress is challenging. We do not discard a double function of p38 during lineage specification and in response to DNA damage.

      (10) Line 191/192 Low oxygen conditions, is this equal to hypoxia? What is the definition of hypoxia here? The next sentence says physiological. Is that the same or different?

      Low oxygen can be defined as hypoxia. This varies from 2% to 6%. Our definition of hypoxia is 5% concentration of oxygen with 5% concentration of CO<sub>2</sub>, taking into consideration the standard levels of oxygen in the IVF clinics. Physiological oxygen in mouse varies from ~1.5% to 8%.

      (11) The question is whether there is something specific about HIF1 and aneuploidy, or whether another added stress would have similar effects on the competitiveness of treated cells.

      That is a great follow up of our work.

      (12) Line 300. Is p21 unregulated at the protein level or mRNA level? Please indicate.

      mRNA level.

      (13) Figure 1D/E H2Ax intensity is cell cycle phase-dependent. It might be meaningful to count foci by the nucleus and show both ways of analysis.

      (14) Check the spelling of phalloidin.

      Fixed in text and figures!

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Chang and colleagues used tetrode recordings in behaving rats to study how learning an audiovisual discrimination task shapes multisensory interactions in the auditory cortex. They found that a significant fraction of neurons in the auditory cortex responded to visual (crossmodal) and audiovisual stimuli. Both auditory-responsive and visually-responsive neurons preferentially responded to the cue signaling the contralateral choice in the two-alternative forced choice task. Importantly, multisensory interactions were similarly specific for the congruent audiovisual pairing for the contralateral side.

      Strengths:

      The experiments were conducted in a rigorous manner. Particularly thorough are the comparisons across cohorts of rats trained in a control task, in a unisensory auditory discrimination task, and the multisensory task, while also varying the recording hemisphere and behavioral state (engaged vs. anesthesia). The resulting contrasts strengthen the authors' findings and rule out important alternative explanations. Through the comparisons, they show that the enhancements of multisensory responses in the auditory cortex are specific to the paired audiovisual stimulus and specific to contralateral choices in correct trials and thus dependent on learned associations in a task-engaged state.

      We thank Reviewer #1 for the thorough review and valuable feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      The main result is that multisensory interactions are specific for contralateral paired audiovisual stimuli, which is consistent across experiments and interpretable as a learned task-dependent effect. However, the alternative interpretation of behavioral signals is crucial to rule out, which would also be specific to contralateral, correct trials in trained animals. Although the authors focus on the first 150 ms after cue onset, some of the temporal profiles of activity suggest that choice-related activity could confound some of the results.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point regarding the potential influence of choice-related activity on our results. In our experimental setup, it is challenging to completely disentangle the effects of behavioral choice from multisensory interaction. However, we conducted relevant analyses to examine the influence of choice-related components on multisensory interaction.

      First, we analyzed neural responses during incorrect trials and found a significant reduction in multisensory enhancement for the A<sup>10k</sup>-V<sup>vt</sup> pairing (Fig. 4). In contrast, for the A<sup>3k</sup>-V<sup>hz</sup> pairing, there was no strong multisensory interaction during either correct (right direction) or incorrect (left direction) choices. This finding suggests that the observed multisensory interactions are strongly associated with specific cue combinations during correct task performance.

      Second, we conducted experiments with unisensory training, in which animals were trained separately on auditory and visual discriminations without explicit multisensory associations. The results demonstrated that unisensory training did not lead to the development of selective multisensory enhancement or congruent auditory-visual preferences, as observed in the multisensory training group. This indicates that the observed multisensory interactions in the auditory cortex are specific to multisensory training and cannot be attributed solely to behavioral signals or choice-related effects.

      Finally, we specifically focused on the early 0-150 ms time window after cue onset in our main analyses to minimize contributions from motor-related or decision-related activity, which typically emerge later. This time window allowed us to capture early sensory processing while reducing potential confounds.

      Together, these findings strongly suggest that the observed choice-dependent multisensory enhancement is a learned, task-dependent phenomenon that is specific to multisensory training.

      The auditory stimuli appear to be encoded by short transient activity (in line with much of what we know about the auditory system), likely with onset latencies (not reported) of 15-30 ms. Stimulus identity can be decoded (Figure 2j) apparently with an onset latency around 50-75 ms (only the difference between A and AV groups is reported) and can be decoded near perfectly for an extended time window, without a dip in decoding performance that is observed in the mean activity Figure 2e. The dynamics of the response of the example neurons presented in Figures 2c and d and the average in 2e therefore do not entirely match the population decoding profile in 2j. Population decoding uses the population activity distribution, rather than the mean, so this is not inherently problematic. It suggests however that the stimulus identity can be decoded from later (choice-related?) activity. The dynamics of the population decoding accuracy are in line with the dynamics one could expect based on choice-related activity. Also the results in Figures S2e,f suggest differences between the two learned stimuli can be in the late phase of the response, not in the early phase.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s detailed observations and questions regarding the dynamics of auditory responses and decoding profiles in our study. In our experiment, primary auditory cortex (A1) neurons exhibited short response latencies that meet the established criteria for auditory responses in A1, consistent with findings from many other studies conducted in both anesthetized and task-engaged animals. While the major responses typically occurred during the early period (0-150ms) after cue onset (see population response in Fig. 2e), individual neuronal responses in the whole population were generally dynamic, as illustrated in Figures 2c, 2d, and 3a–c. As the reviewer correctly noted, population decoding leverages the distribution of activity across neurons rather than the mean activity, which explains why the dynamics of population decoding accuracy align well with choice-related activity. This also accounts for the extended decoding window observed in Figure 2j, which does not entirely match the early population response profiles in Figure 2e.

      To address the reviewer’s suggestion that differences between the two learned stimuli might arise in the late phase of the response, we conducted a cue selectivity analysis during the 151–300 ms period after cue onset. The results, shown below, indicate that neurons maintained cue selectivity in this late phase for each modality (Supplementary Fig. 5), though the selectivity was lower than in the early phase. However, interpreting this late-phase activity remains challenging. Since A<sup>3k</sup>, V<sup>hz</sup>, and A<sup>3k</sup>-V<sup>hz</sup> were associated with the right choice, and A<sup>10k</sup>, V<sup>vt</sup>, and A<sup>10k</sup>-V<sup>vt</sup> with the left choice, it is difficult to disentangle whether the responses reflect choice, sensory features, or a combination of both.

      To further investigate, we examined multisensory interactions during the late phase, controlling for choice effects by calculating unisensory and multisensory responses within the same choice context. Our analysis revealed no evident multisensory enhancement for any auditory-visual pairing, nor significant differences between pairings—unlike the robust effects observed in the early phase (Supplementary Fig. 5). We hypothesize that early responses are predominantly sensory-driven and exhibit strong multisensory integration, whereas late responses likely reflect task-related, choice-related, or combined sensory-choice activity, where sensory-driven multisensory enhancement is less prominent. As the focus of this manuscript is on multisensory integration and cue selectivity, we prioritized a detailed analysis of the early phase, where these effects are most prominent. However, the complexity of interpreting late-phase activity remains a challenge and warrants further investigation. We cited Supplementary Fig. 5 in revised manuscript as the following:

      “This resulted in a significantly higher mean MSI for the A<sup>10k</sup>-V<sup>vt</sup> pairing compared to the A<sup>3k</sup>-V<sup>hz</sup> pairing (0.047 ± 0.124 vs. 0.003 ± 0.096; paired t-test, p < 0.001). Among audiovisual neurons, this biasing is even more pronounced (enhanced vs. inhibited: 62 vs. 2 in A<sup>10k</sup>-V<sup>vt</sup> pairing, 6 vs. 13 in A<sup>3k</sup>-V<sup>hz</sup> pairing; mean MSI: 0.119±0.105 in A<sup>10k</sup>-V<sup>vt</sup> pairing vs. 0.020±0.083 A<sup>3k</sup>-V<sup>hz</sup> pairing, paired t-test, p<0.00001) (Fig. 3f). Unlike the early period (0-150ms after cue onset), no significant differences in multisensory integration were observed during the late period (151-300ms after cue onset) (Supplementary Fig. 5).”

      First, it would help to have the same time axis across panels 2,c,d,e,j,k. Second, a careful temporal dissociation of when the central result of multisensory enhancements occurs in time would discriminate better early sensory processing-related effects versus later decision-related modulations.

      Thank you for this valuable feedback. Regarding the first point, we used a shorter time axis in Fig. 2j-k to highlight how the presence of visual cues accelerates the decoding process. This visualization choice was intended to emphasize the early differences in processing speed. For the second point, we have carefully analyzed multisensory integration across different temporal windows. The results presented in the Supplementary Fig. 5 (also see above) already address the late phase, where our data show no evidence of multisensory enhancement for any auditory-visual pairings. This distinction helps clarify that the observed multisensory effects are primarily related to early sensory processing rather than later decision-related modulations. We hope this addresses the concerns raised and appreciate the opportunity to clarify these points.

      In the abstract, the authors mention "a unique integration model", "selective multisensory enhancement for specific auditory-visual pairings", and "using this distinct integrative mechanisms". I would strongly recommend that the authors try to phrase their results more concretely, which I believe would benefit many readers, i.e. selective how (which neurons) and specific for which pairings?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to clarify our phrasing for better accessibility. To address this, we have revised the relevant sentence in the abstract as follows:

      "This model employed selective multisensory enhancement for the auditory-visual pairing guiding the contralateral choice, which correlated with improved multisensory discrimination."

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary

      In this study, rats were trained to discriminate auditory frequency and visual form/orientation for both unisensory and coherently presented AV stimuli. Recordings were made in the auditory cortex during behaviour and compared to those obtained in various control animals/conditions. The central finding is that AC neurons preferentially represent the contralateral-conditioned stimulus - for the main animal cohort this was a 10k tone and a vertically oriented bar. Over 1/3rd of neurons in AC were either AV/V/A+V and while a variety of multisensory neurons were recorded, the dominant response was excitation by the correctly oriented visual stimulus (interestingly this preference was absent in the visual-only neurons). Animals performing a simple version of the task in which responses were contingent on the presence of a stimulus rather than its identity showed a smaller proportion of AV stimuli and did not exhibit a preference for contralateral conditioned stimuli. The contralateral conditioned dominance was substantially less under anesthesia in the trained animals and was present in a cohort of animals trained with the reverse left/right contingency. Population decoding showed that visual cues did not increase the performance of the decoder but accelerated the rate at which it saturated. Rats trained on auditory and then visual stimuli (rather than simultaneously with A/V/AV) showed many fewer integrative neurons.

      Strengths

      There is a lot that I like about this paper - the study is well-powered with multiple groups (free choice, reversed contingency, unisensory trained, anesthesia) which provides a lot of strength to their conclusions and there are many interesting details within the paper itself. Surprisingly few studies have attempted to address whether multisensory responses in the unisensory cortex contribute to behaviour - and the main one that attempted to address this question (Lemus et al., 2010, uncited by this study) showed that while present in AC, somatosensory responses did not appear to contribute to perception. The present manuscript suggests otherwise and critically does so in the context of a task in which animals exhibit a multisensory advantage (this was lacking in Lemus et al.,). The behaviour is robust, with AV stimuli eliciting superior performance to either auditory or visual unisensory stimuli (visual were slightly worse than auditory but both were well above chance).

      We thank the reviewer for their positive evaluation of our study.

      Weaknesses

      I have a number of points that in my opinion require clarification and I have suggestions for ways in which the paper could be strengthened. In addition to these points, I admit to being slightly baffled by the response latencies; while I am not an expert in the rat, usually in the early sensory cortex auditory responses are significantly faster than visual ones (mirroring the relative first spike latencies of A1 and V1 and the different transduction mechanisms in the cochlea and retina). Yet here, the latencies look identical - if I draw a line down the pdf on the population level responses the peak of the visual and auditory is indistinguishable. This makes me wonder whether these are not sensory responses - yet, they look sensory (very tightly stimulus-locked). Are these latencies a consequence of this being AuD and not A1, or ... ? Have the authors performed movement-triggered analysis to illustrate that these responses are not related to movement out of the central port, or is it possible that both sounds and visual stimuli elicit characteristic whisking movements? Lastly, has the latency of the signals been measured (i.e. you generate and play them out synchronously, but is it possible that there is a delay on the audio channel introduced by the amp, which in turn makes it appear as if the neural signals are synchronous? If the latter were the case I wouldn't see it as a problem as many studies use a temporal offset in order to give the best chance of aligning signals in the brain, but this is such an obvious difference from what we would expect in other species that it requires some sort of explanation.

      Thank you for your insightful comments. I appreciate the opportunity to clarify these points and strengthen our manuscript. Below, I address your concerns in detail:

      We agree that auditory responses are typically faster than visual responses due to the distinct transduction mechanisms. However, in our experiment, we intentionally designed the stimulus setup to elicit auditory and visual responses within a similar time window to maximize the potential for multisensory integration. Specifically, we used pure tone sounds with a 15 ms ramp and visual stimuli generated by an LED array, which produce faster responses compared to mostly used light bars shown on a screen (see Supplementary Fig. 2a). The long ramp of the auditory stimulus slightly delayed auditory response onset, while the LED-generated bar (compared to the bar shown on the screen) elicited visual responses more quickly. This alignment likely facilitated the observed overlap in response latencies.

      Neurons’ strong spontaneous activity in freely moving animals complicates the measurement of first spike latencies. Despite that, we still can infer the latency from robust cue-evoked responses. Supplementary Fig. 2b illustrates responses from an exemplar neuron (the same neuron as shown in Fig. 2c), where the auditory response begins 9 ms earlier than the visual response. Given the 28 ms auditory response latency observed here using 15 ms-ramp auditory stimulus, this value is consistent with prior studies in the primary auditory cortex usually using 5 ms ramp pure tones, where latencies typically range from 7 to 28 ms. Across the population (n=559), auditory responses consistently reached 0.5 of the mean Z-scored response 15 ms earlier than visual responses (Supplementary Fig. 2c). The use of Gaussian smoothing in PSTHs supports the reliability of using the 0.5 threshold as an onset latency marker. We cited Supplementary Fig. 2 in the revised manuscript within the Results section (also see the following):

      “This suggests multisensory discrimination training enhances visual representation in the auditory cortex. To optimize the alignment of auditory and visual responses and reveal the greatest potential for multisensory integration, we used long-ramp pure tone auditory stimuli and quick LED-array-elicited visual stimuli (Supplementary Fig. 2). While auditory responses were still slightly earlier than visual responses, the temporal alignment was sufficient to support robust integration.”

      We measured the time at which rats left the central port and confirmed that these times occur significantly later than the neuronal responses analyzed (see Fig. 1c-d). While we acknowledge the potential influence of movements such as whiskering, facial movements, head direction changes, or body movements on neuronal responses, precise monitoring of these behaviors in freely moving animals remains a technical challenge. However, given the tightly stimulus-locked nature of the neuronal responses observed, we believe they primarily reflect sensory processing rather than movement-related activity.

      To ensure accurate synchronization of auditory and visual stimuli, we verified the latencies of our signals. The auditory and visual stimuli were generated and played out synchronously with no intentional delay introduced. The auditory amplifier used in our setup introduces minimal latency, and any such delay would have been accounted for during calibration. Importantly, even if a small delay existed, it would not undermine our findings, as many studies intentionally use temporal offsets to facilitate alignment of neural signals. Nonetheless, the temporal overlap observed here is primarily a result of our experimental design aimed at promoting multisensory integration.

      We hope these clarifications address your concerns and highlight the robustness of our findings.

      Reaction times were faster in the AV condition - it would be of interest to know whether this acceleration is sufficient to violate a race model, given the arbitrary pairing of these stimuli. This would give some insight into whether the animals are really integrating the sensory information. It would also be good to clarify whether the reaction time is the time taken to leave the center port or respond at the peripheral one.

      We appreciate your request for clarification. In our analysis, reaction time (RT) is defined as the time taken for the animal to leave the center port after cue onset. This measure was chosen because it reflects the initial decision-making process and the integration of sensory information leading to action initiation. The time taken to respond at the peripheral port, commonly referred to as movement time, was not included in our RT measure. However, movement time data is available in our dataset, and we are open to further analysis if deemed necessary.

      To determine whether the observed acceleration in RTs in the audiovisual (AV) condition reflects true multisensory integration rather than statistical facilitation, we tested for violations of the race model inequality (Miller, 1982). This approach establishes a bound for the probability of a response occurring within a given time interval under the assumption that the auditory (A) and visual (V) modalities operate independently. Specifically, we calculated cumulative distribution functions (CDFs) for the RTs in the A, V, and AV conditions (please see Author response image 1). In some rats, the AV_RTs exceeded the race model prediction at multiple time points, suggesting that the observed acceleration is not merely due to statistical facilitation but reflects true multisensory integration. Examples of these violations are shown in Panels a-b of the following figure. However, in other rats, the AV_RTs did not exceed the race model prediction, as illustrated in Author response image 1c-d.

      This variability may be attributed to task-specific factors in our experimental design. For instance, the rats were not under time pressure to respond immediately after cue onset, as the task emphasized accuracy over speed. This lack of urgency may have influenced their behavioral responses and movement patterns. The race model is typically applied to assess multisensory integration in tasks where rapid responses are critical, often under conditions that incentivize speed (e.g., time-restricted tasks). In our study, the absence of strict temporal constraints may have reduced the likelihood of observing consistent violations of the race model. Furthermore, In our multisensory discrimination task, animals should discriminate multiple cues and make a behavioral choice have introduced additional variability in the degree of integration observed across individual animals. Additionally, factors such as a decline in thirst levels and physical performance as the task progressed may have significantly contributed to the variability in our results. These considerations are important for contextualizing the race model findings and interpreting the data within the framework of our experimental design.

      Author response image 1.

      Reaction time cumulative distribution functions (CDFs) and race model evaluation. (a) CDFs of reaction times (RTs) for auditory (blue), visual (green), and audiovisual stimuli (red) during the multisensory discrimination task. The summed CDF of the auditory and visual conditions (dashed purple, CDF_Miller) represents the race model prediction under independent sensory processing. The dashed yellow line represents the CDF of reaction times predicted by the race model. According to the race model inequality, the CDF for audiovisual stimuli (CDF_AV) should always lie below or to the right of the sum of CDF_A and CDF_V. In this example, the inequality is violated at nearly t = 200 ms, where CDF_AV is above CDF_Miller. (b) Data from another animal, showing similar results. (c, d) CDFs of reaction times for two other animals. In these cases, the CDFs follow the race model inequality, with CDF_AV consistently lying below or to the right of CDF_A + CDF_V.

      The manuscript is very vague about the origin or responses - are these in AuD, A1, AuV... ? Some attempts to separate out responses if possible by laminar depth and certainly by field are necessary. It is known from other species that multisensory responses are more numerous, and show greater behavioural modulation in non-primary areas (e.g. Atilgan et al., 2018).

      Thank you for highlighting the importance of specifying the origin of the recorded responses. In the manuscript, we have detailed the implantation process in both the Methods and Results sections, indicating that the tetrode array was targeted to the primary auditory cortex. Using a micromanipulator (RWD, Shenzhen, China), the tetrode array was precisely positioned at stereotaxic coordinates 3.5–5.5 mm posterior to bregma and 6.4 mm lateral to the midline, and advanced to a depth of approximately 2–2.8 mm from the brain surface, corresponding to the primary auditory cortex. Although our recordings were aimed at A1, it is likely that some neurons from AuD and/or AuV were also included due to the anatomical proximity.

      In fact, in our unpublished data collected from AuD, we observed that over 50% of neurons responded to or were modulated by visual cues, consistent with findings from many other studies. This suggests that visual representations are more pronounced in AuD compared to A1. However, as noted in the manuscript, our primary focus was on A1, where we observed relatively fewer visual or audiovisual modulations in untrained rats.

      Regarding laminar depth, we regret that we were unable to determine the specific laminar layers of the recorded neurons in this study, a limitation primarily due to the constraints of our recording setup.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Chang et al. aims to investigate how the behavioral relevance of auditory and visual stimuli influences the way in which the primary auditory cortex encodes auditory, visual, and audiovisual information. The main result is that behavioral training induces an increase in the encoding of auditory and visual information and in multisensory enhancement that is mainly related to the choice located contralaterally with respect to the recorded hemisphere.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript reports the results of an elegant and well-planned experiment meant to investigate if the auditory cortex encodes visual information and how learning shapes visual responsiveness in the auditory cortex. Analyses are typically well done and properly address the questions raised.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for their thoughtful and positive evaluation of our study.

      Weaknesses:

      Major

      (1) The authors apparently primarily focus their analyses of sensory-evoked responses in approximately the first 100 ms following stimulus onset. Even if I could not find an indication of which precise temporal range the authors used for analysis in the manuscript, this is the range where sensory-evoked responses are shown to occur in the manuscript figures. While this is a reasonable range for auditory evoked responses, the same cannot be said for visual responses, which commonly peak around 100-120 ms, in V1. In fact, the latency and overall shape of visual responses are quite different from typical visual responses, that are commonly shown to display a delay of up to 100 ms with respect to auditory responses. All traces that the authors show, instead, display visual responses strikingly overlapping with auditory ones, which is not in line with what one would expect based on our physiological understanding of cortical visually-evoked responses. Similarly, the fact that the onset of decoding accuracy (Figure 2j) anticipates during multisensory compared to auditory-only trials is hard to reconcile with the fact that visual responses have a later onset latency compared to auditory ones. The authors thus need to provide unequivocal evidence that the results they observe are truly visual in origin. This is especially important in view of the ever-growing literature showing that sensory cortices encode signals representing spontaneous motor actions, but also other forms of non-sensory information that can be taken prima facie to be of sensory origin. This is a problem that only now we realize has affected a lot of early literature, especially - but not only - in the field of multisensory processing. It is thus imperative that the authors provide evidence supporting the true visual nature of the activity reported during auditory and multisensory conditions, in both trained, free-choice, and anesthetized conditions. This could for example be achieved causally (e.g. via optogenetics) to provide the strongest evidence about the visual nature of the reported results, but it's up to the authors to identify a viable solution. This also applies to the enhancement of matched stimuli, that could potentially be explained in terms of spontaneous motor activity and/or pre-motor influences. In the absence of this evidence, I would discourage the author from drawing any conclusion about the visual nature of the observed activity in the auditory cortex.

      We thank the reviewers for highlighting the critical issue of validating the sensory origin of the reported responses, particularly regarding the timing of visual responses and the potential confound of motor-related activity.

      We analyzed neural responses within the first 150 ms following cue onset, as stated in the manuscript. This temporal window encompasses the peak of visual responses. The responses to visual stimuli occur predominantly within the first 100 ms after cue onset, preceding the initiation of body movements in behavioral tasks. This temporal dissociation aligns with previous studies, which demonstrate that motor-related activity in sensory cortices generally emerges later and is often associated with auditory rather than visual stimuli

      We acknowledge that auditory responses are typically faster than visual responses due to distinct transduction mechanisms. However, in our experiment, we intentionally designed the stimulus setup to elicit auditory and visual responses within a similar time window to maximize the potential for multisensory integration. Specifically, we used pure tone sounds with a 15 ms ramp and visual stimuli generated by an LED array, which produce faster responses compared to commonly used light bars shown on a screen. The long ramp of the auditory stimulus slightly delayed auditory response onset, while the LED-generated bar elicited visual responses more quickly (Supplementary Fig. 2). This alignment facilitated the observed overlap in response latencies. As we measured in neurons with robust visual response, first spike latencies is approximately 40 ms, as exemplified by a neuron with a low spontaneous firing rate and a strong, stimulus-evoked response (Supplementary Fig. 4). Across the population (n = 559 neurons), auditory responses reached 0.5 of the mean Z-scored response 15 ms earlier than visual responses on average (Supplementary Fig. 2). We cited Supplementary Fig. 4 in the Results section as follows:

      “Regarding the visual modality, 41% (80/196) of visually-responsive neurons showed a significant visual preference (Fig. 2f). The visual responses observed within the 0–150 ms window after cue onset were consistent and unlikely to result from visually evoked movement-related activity. This conclusion is supported by the early timing of the response (Fig. 2e) and exemplified by a neuron with a low spontaneous firing rate and a robust, stimulus-evoked response (Supplementary Fig. 4).”

      We acknowledge the growing body of literature suggesting that sensory cortices can encode signals related to motor actions or non-sensory factors. To address this concern, we emphasize that visual responses were present not only during behavioral tasks but also in anesthetized conditions, where motor-related signals are absent. Additionally, movement-evoked responses tend to be stereotyped and non-discriminative. In contrast, the visual responses observed in our study were highly consistent and selective to visual cue properties, further supporting their sensory origin.

      In summary, the combination of anesthetized and behavioral recordings, the temporal profile of responses, and their discriminative nature strongly support the sensory (visual) origin of the observed activity within the early response period. While the current study provides strong temporal and experimental evidence for the sensory origin of the visual responses, we agree that causal approaches, such as optogenetic silencing of visual input, could provide even stronger validation. Future work will explore these methods to further dissect the visual contributions to auditory cortical activity.

      (2) The finding that AC neurons in trained mice preferentially respond - and enhance - auditory and visual responses pertaining to the contralateral choice is interesting, but the study does not show evidence for the functional relevance of this phenomenon. As has become more and more evident over the past few years (see e.g. the literature on mouse PPC), correlated neural activity is not an indication of functional role. Therefore, in the absence of causal evidence, the functional role of the reported AC correlates should not be overstated by the authors. My opinion is that, starting from the title, the authors need to much more carefully discuss the implications of their findings.

      We fully agree that correlational data alone cannot establish causality. In light of your suggestion, we will revise the manuscript to more carefully discuss the implications of our findings, acknowledging that the preferred responses observed in AC neurons, particularly in relation to the contralateral choice, are correlational. We have updated several sentences in the manuscript to avoid overstating the functional relevance of these observations. Below are the revisions we have made:

      Abstract section

      "Importantly, many audiovisual neurons in the AC exhibited experience-dependent associations between their visual and auditory preferences, displaying a unique integration model. This model employed selective multisensory enhancement for the auditory-visual pairing guiding the contralateral choice, which correlated with improved multisensory discrimination."

      (Page 8, fourth paragraph in Results Section)

      "This aligns with findings that neurons in the AC and medial prefrontal cortex selectively preferred the tone associated with the behavioral choice contralateral to the recorded cortices during sound discrimination tasks, potentially reflecting the formation of sound-to-action associations. However, this preference represents a neural correlate, and further work is required to establish its causal link to behavioral choices."

      (rewrite 3rd paragraph in Discussion Section)

      "Consistent with prior research(10,31), most AC neurons exhibited a selective preference for cues associated with contralateral choices, regardless of the sensory modality. This suggests that AC neurons may contribute to linking sensory inputs with decision-making, although their causal role remains to be examined. "

      "These results indicate that multisensory training could drive the formation of specialized neural circuits within the auditory cortex, facilitating integrated processing of related auditory and visual information. However, further causal studies are required to confirm this hypothesis and to determine whether the auditory cortex is the primary site of these circuit modifications."

      MINOR:

      (1) The manuscript is lacking what pertains to the revised interpretation of most studies about audiovisual interactions in primary sensory cortices following the recent studies revealing that most of what was considered to be crossmodal actually reflects motor aspects. In particular, recent evidence suggests that sensory-induced spontaneous motor responses may have a surprisingly fast latency (within 40 ms; Clayton et al. 2024). Such responses might also underlie the contralaterally-tuned responses observed by the authors if one assumes that mice learn a stereotypical response that is primed by the upcoming goal-directed, learned response. Given that a full exploration of this issue would require high-speed tracking of orofacial and body motions, the authors should at least revise the discussion and the possible interpretation of their results not just on the basis of the literature, but after carefully revising the literature in view of the most recent findings, that challenge earlier interpretations of experimental results.

      Thank you for pointing out this important consideration. We have revised the discussion (paragraph 8-9) as follows:

      “There is ongoing debate about whether cross-sensory responses in sensory cortices predominantly reflect sensory inputs or are influenced by behavioral factors, such as cue-induced body movements. A recent study shows that sound-clip evoked activity in visual cortex have a behavioral rather than sensory origin and is related to stereotyped movements(48). Several studies have demonstrated sensory neurons can encode signals associated with whisking(49), running(50), pupil dilation (510 and other movements(52). In our study, the responses to visual stimuli in the auditory cortex occurred primarily within a 100 ms window following cue onset. This early timing suggests that the observed responses likely reflect direct sensory inputs, rather than being modulated by visually-evoked body or orofacial movements, which typically occur with a delay relative to sensory cue onset(53).

      A recent study by Clayton et al. (2024) demonstrated that sensory stimuli can evoke rapid motor responses, such as facial twitches, within 50 ms, mediated by subcortical pathways and modulated by descending corticofugal input(56). These motor responses provide a sensitive behavioral index of auditory processing. Although Clayton et al. did not observe visually evoked facial movements, it is plausible that visually driven motor activity occurs more frequently in freely moving animals compared to head-fixed conditions. In goal-directed tasks, such rapid motor responses might contribute to the contralaterally tuned responses observed in our study, potentially reflecting preparatory motor behaviors associated with learned responses. Consequently, some of the audiovisual integration observed in the auditory cortex may represent a combination of multisensory processing and preparatory motor activity. Comprehensive investigation of these motor influences would require high-speed tracking of orofacial and body movements. Therefore, our findings should be interpreted with this consideration in mind. Future studies should aim to systematically monitor and control eye, orofacial, and body movements to disentangle sensory-driven responses from motor-related contributions, enhancing our understanding of motor planning’s role in multisensory integration.”

      (2) The methods section is a bit lacking in details. For instance, information about the temporal window of analysis for sensory-evoked responses is lacking. Another example: for the spike sorting procedure, limited details are given about inclusion/exclusion criteria. This makes it hard to navigate the manuscript and fully understand the experimental paradigm. I would recommend critically revising and expanding the methods section.

      Thank you for raising this point. We clarified the temporal window by including additional details in the methods section, even though this information was already mentioned in the results section. Specifically, we now state:

      (Neural recordings and Analysis in methods section)

      “...These neural signals, along with trace signals representing the stimuli and session performance information, were transmitted to a PC for online observation and data storage. Neural responses were analyzed within a 0-150ms temporal window after cue onset, as this period was identified as containing the main cue-evoked responses for most neurons. This time window was selected based on the consistent and robust neural activity observed during this period.”

      We appreciate your concern regarding spike sorting procedure. To address this, we have expanded the methods section to provide more detailed information about the quality of our single-unit recordings. we have added detailed information in the text, as shown below (Analysis of electrophysiological data in methods section):

      “Initially, the recorded raw neural signals were band-pass filtered in the range of 300-6000 Hz to eliminate field potentials. A threshold criterion, set at no less than three times the standard deviation (SD) above the background noise, was applied to automatically identify spike peaks. The detected spike waveforms were then subjected to clustering using template-matching and built-in principal component analysis tool in a three-dimensional feature space. Manual curation was conducted to refine the sorting process. Each putative single unit was evaluated based on its waveform and firing patterns over time. Waveforms with inter-spike intervals of less than 2.0 ms were excluded from further analysis. Spike trains corresponding to an individual unit were aligned to the onset of the stimulus and grouped based on different cue and choice conditions. Units were included in further analysis only if their presence was stable throughout the session, and their mean firing rate exceeded 2 Hz. The reliability of auditory and visual responses for each unit was assessed, with well-isolated units typically showing the highest response reliability.”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Some of the ordering of content in the introduction could be improved. E.g. line 49 reflects statements about the importance of sensory experience, which is the topic of the subsequent paragraph. In the discussion, line 436, there is a discussion of the same findings as line 442. These two paragraphs in general appear to discuss similar content. Similarly, the paragraph starting at line 424 and at line 451 both discuss the plasticity of multisensory responses through audiovisual experience, as well as the paragraph starting at line 475 (but now audiovisual pairing is dubbed semantic). In the discussion of how congruency/experience shapes multisensory interactions, the authors should relate their findings to those of Meijer et al. 2017 and Garner and Keller 2022 (visual cortex) about enhanced and suppressed responses and their potential role (as well as other literature such as Banks et al. 2011 in AC).

      We thank the reviewer for their detailed observations and valuable recommendations to improve the manuscript's organization. Below, we address each point:

      We deleted the sentence, "Sensory experience has been shown to shape cross-modal presentations in sensory cortices" (Line 49), as the subsequent paragraph discusses sensory experience in detail.

      To avoid repetition, we removed the sentence, "This suggests that multisensory training enhances AC's ability to process visual information" (Lines 442–443).

      Regarding the paragraph starting at Line 475, we believe its current form is appropriate, as it focuses on the influence of semantic congruence on multisensory integration, which differs from the topics discussed in the other paragraphs.

      We have cited the three papers suggested by the reviewer in the appropriate sections of the manuscript.

      (Paragraph 6 in discussion section)

      “…A study conducted on the gustatory cortex of alert rats has shown that cross-modal associative learning was linked to a dramatic increase in the prevalence of neurons responding to nongustatory stimuli (24). Moreover, in the primary visual cortex, experience-dependent interactions can arise from learned sequential associations between auditory and visual stimuli, mediated by corticocortical connections rather than simultaneous audiovisual presentations (26).”

      (Paragraph 2 in discussion section)

      “...Meijer et al. reported that congruent audiovisual stimuli evoke balanced enhancement and suppression in V1, while incongruent stimuli predominantly lead to suppression(6), mirroring our findings in AC, where multisensory integration was dependent on stimulus feature…”

      (Paragraph 2 in introduction section)

      “...Anatomical investigations reveal reciprocal nerve projections between auditory and visual cortices(4,11-15), highlighting the interconnected nature of these sensory systems. Moreover, two-photon calcium imaging in awake mice has shown that audiovisual encoding in the primary visual cortex depends on the temporal congruency of stimuli, with temporally congruent audiovisual stimuli eliciting balanced enhancement and suppression, whereas incongruent stimuli predominantly result in suppression(6).”

      (2) The finding of purely visually responsive neurons in the auditory cortex that moreover discriminate the stimuli is surprising given previous results (Iurilli et al. 2012, Morrill and Hasenstaub 2018 (only L6), Oude Lohuis et al. 2024, Atilgan et al. 2018, Chou et al. 2020). Reporting the latency of this response is interesting information about the potential pathways by which this information could reach the auditory system. Furthermore, spike isolation quality and histological verification are described in little detail. It is crucial for statements about the auditory, visual, or audiovisual response of individual neurons to substantiate the confidence level about the quality of single-unit recordings and where they were recorded. Do the authors have data to support that visual and audiovisual responses were not restricted to posteromedial tetrodes or clusters with poor quality? A discussion of finding V-responsive units in AC with respect to literature is warranted. Furthermore, the finding that also in visual trials behaviorally relevant information about the visual cue (with a bias for the contralateral choice cue) is sent to the AC is pivotal in the interpretation of the results, which as far as I note not really considered that much.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s thoughtful comments and have addressed them as follows:

      Discussion of finding choice-related V-responsive units in AC with respect to literature and potential pathways

      3rd paragraph in the Discussion section

      “Consistent with prior research(10,31), most AC neurons exhibited a selective preference for cues associated with contralateral choices, regardless of the sensory modality. This suggests that AC neurons may contribute to linking sensory inputs with decision-making, although their causal role remains to be examined. Associative learning may drive the formation of new connections between sensory and motor areas of the brain, such as cortico-cortical pathways(35). Notably, this cue-preference biasing was absent in the free-choice group. A similar bias was also reported in a previous study, where auditory discrimination learning selectively potentiated corticostriatal synapses from neurons representing either high or low frequencies associated with contralateral choices(32)…”

      6th paragraph in the Discussion section

      “Our results extend prior finding(4,47), showing that visual input not only reaches the AC but can also drive discriminative responses, particularly during task engagement. This task-specific plasticity enhances cross-modal integration, as demonstrated in other sensory systems. For example, calcium imaging studies in mice showed that a subset of multimodal neurons in visual cortex develops enhanced auditory responses to the paired auditory stimulus following coincident auditory–visual experience(25)…”

      8th paragraph in the Discussion section

      “…In our study, the responses to visual stimuli in the auditory cortex occurred primarily within a 100 ms window following cue onset, suggesting that visual information reaches the AC through rapid pathways. Potential candidates include direct or fast cross-modal inputs, such as pulvinar-mediated pathways(8) or corticocortical connections(5,54), rather than slower associative mechanisms. This early timing indicates that the observed responses were less likely modulated by visually-evoked body or orofacial movements, which typically occur with a delay relative to sensory cue onset(55).”

      Response Latency

      Regarding the latency of visually driven responses, we have included this information in our response to the second reviewer’s first weakness (please see the above). Briefly, we analyzed neural responses within a 0-150ms temporal window after cue onset, as this period captures the most consistent and robust cue-evoked responses across neurons.

      Purely Visually Responsive Neurons in A1

      We agree that the finding of visually responsive neurons in the auditory cortex may initially seem surprising. However, these neurons might not have been sensitive to target auditory cues in our task but could still respond to other sound types. Cortical neurons are known to exhibit significant plasticity during the cue discrimination tasks, as well as during passive sensory exposure. Thus, the presence of visually responsive neurons is not inconsistent with prior findings but highlights task-specific sensory tuning. We confirm that responses were not restricted to posteromedial tetrodes or low-quality clusters (see an example of a robust visually responsive neuron in supplementary Fig. 4). Histological analysis verified electrode placements across the auditory cortex.

      For spike sorting, we have added detailed information in the text, as shown below:

      “Initially, the recorded raw neural signals were band-pass filtered in the range of 300-6000 Hz to eliminate field potentials. A threshold criterion, set at no less than three times the standard deviation (SD) above the background noise, was applied to automatically identify spike peaks. The detected spike waveforms were then subjected to clustering using template-matching and built-in principal component analysis tool in a three-dimensional feature space. Manual curation was conducted to refine the sorting process. Each putative single unit was evaluated based on its waveform and firing patterns over time. Waveforms with inter-spike intervals of less than 2.0 ms were excluded from further analysis. Spike trains corresponding to an individual unit were aligned to the onset of the stimulus and grouped based on different cue and choice conditions. Units were included in further analysis only if their presence was stable throughout the session, and their mean firing rate exceeded 2 Hz. The reliability of auditory and visual responses for each unit was assessed, with well-isolated units typically showing the highest response reliability.”

      (3) In the abstract it seems that in "Additionally, AC neurons..." the connective word 'additionally' is misleading as it is mainly a rephrasing of the previous statement.

      Replaced "Additionally" with "Furthermore" to better signal elaboration and continuity.

      (4) The experiments included multisensory conflict trials - incongruent audiovisual stimuli. What was the behavior for these trials given multiple interesting studies on the neural correlates of sensory dominance (Song et al. 2017, Coen et al. 2023, Oude Lohuis et al. 2024).

      We appreciate your feedback and have addressed it by including a new figure (supplemental Fig. 8) that illustrates choice selection during incongruent audiovisual stimuli. Panel (a) shows that rats displayed confusion when exposed to mismatched stimuli, resulting in choice patterns that differed from those observed in panel (b), where consistent audiovisual stimuli were presented. To provide clarity and integrate this new figure effectively into the manuscript, we updated the results section as follows:

      “...Rats received water rewards with a 50% chance in either port when an unmatched multisensory cue was triggered. Behavioral analysis revealed that Rats displayed notable confusion in response to unmatched multisensory cues, as evidenced by their inconsistent choice patterns (supplementary Fig. 8).”

      (5) Line 47: The AC does not 'perceive' sound frequency, individual brain regions are not thought to perceive.

      e appreciate the reviewer’s observation and have revised the sentence to ensure scientific accuracy. The updated sentence in the second paragraph of the Introduction now reads:

      “Even irrelevant visual cues can affect sound discrimination in AC<sup>10</sup>.”

      (6) Line 59-63: The three questions are not completely clear to me. Both what they mean exactly and how they are different. E.g. Line 60: without specification, it is hard to understand which 'strategies' are meant by the "same or different strategies"? And Line 61: What is meant by the quotation marks for match and mismatch? I assume this is referring to learned congruency and incongruency, which appears almost the same question as number 3 (how learning affects the cortical representation).

      We have revised the three questions for improved clarity and distinction as follows:<br /> “This limits our understanding of multisensory integration in sensory cortices, particularly regarding: (1) Do neurons in sensory cortices adopt consistent integration strategies across different audiovisual pairings, or do these strategies vary depending on the pairing? (2) How does multisensory perceptual learning reshape cortical representations of audiovisual objects? (3) How does the congruence between auditory and visual features—whether they "match" or "mismatch" based on learned associations—impact neural integration?”

      (7) Is the data in Figures 1c and d only hits?

      Only correct trials are included. We add this information in the figure legend. Please see Fig. 1 legend. Also, please see below

      “c Cumulative frequency distribution of reaction time (time from cue onset to leaving the central port) for one representative rat in auditory, visual and multisensory trials (correct only). d Comparison of average reaction times across rats in auditory, visual, and multisensory trials (correct only).”

      (8) Figure S1b: Preferred frequency is binned in non-equidistant bins, neither linear nor logarithmic. It is unclear what the reason is.

      The edges of the bins for the preferred frequency were determined based on a 0.5-octave increment, starting from the smallest boundary of 8 kHz. Specifically, the bin edges were calculated as follows:

      8×2<sup>0.5</sup>=11.3 kHz;

      8×2<sup>1</sup>=16 kHz;

      8×2<sup>1.5</sup>=22.6 kHz;

      8×2<sup>2</sup>=32 kHz;

      This approach reflects the common practice of using changes in octaves to define differences between pure tone frequencies, as it aligns with the logarithmic perception of sound frequency in auditory neuroscience.

      (9) Figure S1d: why are the responses all most neurons very strongly correlated given the frequency tuning of A1 neurons? Further, the mean normalized response presented in Figure S2e does seem to indicate a stronger response for 10kHz tones than 3kHz, in conflict with the data from anesthetized rats presented in Figure S2e.

      There is no discrepancy in the data. In Figure S1d, we compared neuronal responses to 10 kHz and 3 kHz tones, demonstrating that most neurons responded well to both frequencies. This panel does not aim to illustrate frequency selectivity but rather the overall responsiveness of neurons to these tones. For detailed information on sound selectivity, readers can refer to Figures S3a-b, which show that while more neurons preferred 10 kHz tones, the proportion is lower than in neurons recorded during the multisensory discrimination task. This distinction explains the observed differences and aligns with the results presented.

      (10) Line 79: For clarity, it can be added that the multisensory trials presented are congruent trials (jointly indicated rewarded port), and perhaps that incongruent trials are discussed later in the paper.

      We believe additional clarification is unnecessary, as the designations "A<sup>3k</sup>V<sup>hz</sup>" and "A<sup>10k</sup>V<sup>vt</sup>" clearly indicate the specific combinations of auditory and visual cues presented during congruent trials. Additionally, the discussion of incongruent trials is provided later in the manuscript, as noted by the reviewer.

      (11) Line 111: the description leaves unclear that the 35% reflects the combination of units responsive to visual only and responsive to auditory or visual.

      The information is clearly presented in Figure 2b, which shows the proportions of neurons responding to auditory-only (A), visual-only (V), both auditory and visual (A, V), and audiovisual-only (VA) stimuli in a pie chart. Readers can refer to this figure for a detailed breakdown of the neuronal response categories.

      (12) Figure 2h: consider a colormap with diverging palette and equal positive and negative maximum (e.g. -0.6 to 0.6) and perhaps reiterate in the color bar legend which stimulus is preferred for which selectivity index.

      We appreciate the suggestion; however, we believe that the current colormap effectively conveys the data and the intended interpretation. The existing color bar legend already provides clear information about the selectivity index, and the stimulus preference is adequately explained in the figure caption. As such, further adjustments are not necessary.

      (13) Line 160: "a ratio of 60:20 for V<sup>vt</sup> 160 preferred vs. V<sup>hz</sup> preferred neurons." Is this supposed to add up to 100, or is this a ratio of 3:1?

      We rewrite the sentence. Please see below:

      “Similar to the auditory selectivity observed, a greater proportion of neurons favored the visual stimulus (V<sup>vt</sup>) associated with the contralateral choice, with a 3:1 ratio of V<sup>vt</sup>-preferred to V<sup>hz</sup>-preferred neurons.”

      (14) The statement in Figure 2g and line 166/167 could be supported by a statistical test (chi-square?).

      Thank you for the suggestion. However, we believe that a statistical test is not required in this case, as the patterns observed are clearly represented in Figure 2g. The qualitative differences between the groups are evident and sufficiently supported by the data.

      (15) Line 168, it is unclear in what sense 'dominant' is meant. Is audition perceived as a dominant sensory modality in a behavioral sense (e.g. Song et al. 2017), or are auditory signals the dominant sensory signal locally in the auditory cortex?

      Thank you for the clarification. To address your question, by "dominant," we are referring to the fact that auditory inputs are the most prominent and influential among the sensory signals feeding into the auditory cortex. This reflects the local dominance of auditory signals within the auditory cortex, rather than a behavioral dominance of auditory perception. We have revised the sentence as follows:

      “We propose that the auditory input, which dominates within the auditory cortex, acts as a 'teaching signal' that shapes visual processing through the selective reinforcement of specific visual pathways during associative learning.”

      (16) Line 180: "we discriminated between auditory, visual, and multisensory cues." This phrasing indicated that the SVMs were trained to discriminate sensory modalities (as is done later in the manuscript), rather than what was done: discriminate stimuli within different categories of trials.

      Thank you for your comment. We have revised the sentence for clarity. Please see the updated version below:

      “Using cross-validated support vector machine (SVM) classifiers, we examined how this pseudo-population discriminates stimulus identity within the same modality (e.g., A<sup>3k</sup> vs. A<sup>10k</sup> for auditory stimuli, V<sup>hz</sup> vs. V<sup>vt</sup> for visual stimuli, A<sup>3k</sup>V<sup>hz</sup> vs. A<sup>10k</sup>V<sup>vt</sup> for multisensory stimuli).”

      (17) Line 185: "a deeply accurate incorporation of visual processing in the auditory cortex." the phrasing is a bit excessive for a binary classification performance.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have revised the sentence to better reflect the findings without overstating them:

      “Interestingly, AC neurons could discriminate between two visual targets with around 80% accuracy (Fig. 2j), demonstrating a meaningful incorporation of visual information into auditory cortical processing.”

      (18) Figure 3, title. An article is missing (a,an/the).

      Done. Please see below:

      Fig. 3 Auditory and visual integration in the multisensory discrimination task

      (19) Line 209, typo pvalue: p<-0.00001.

      Done (p<0.00001).

      (20) Line 209, the pattern is not weaker. The pattern is the same, but more weakly expressed.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. We appreciate your clarification and agree that our phrasing could be improved for accuracy. The observed pattern under anesthesia is indeed the same but less strongly expressed compared to the task engagement. We have revised the sentence to better reflect this distinction:

      “A similar pattern, albeit less strongly expressed, was observed under anesthesia (Supplementary Fig. 3c-3f), suggesting that multisensory perceptual learning may induce plastic changes in AC.”

      (21) Line 211: choice-free group → free-choice group.

      Done.

      (22) Line 261: wrong → incorrect (to maintain consistent terminology).

      Done.

      (23) Line 265: why 'likely'? Are incorrect choices on the A<sup>3k</sup>-V<sup>hz</sup> trials not by definition contralateral and vice versa? Or are there other ways to have incorrect trials?

      We deleted the word of ‘likely’. Please see below:

      “…, correct choices here correspond to ipsilateral behavioral selection, while incorrect choices correspond to contralateral behavioral selection.”

      (24) Typo legend Fig 3a-c (tasks → task). (only one task performed).

      Done.

      (25) Line 400: typo: Like → like.

      Done.

      (26) Line 405: What is meant by a cohesive visual stimulus? Congruent? Rephrase.

      Done. Please see the below:

      “…layer 2/3 neurons of the primary visual cortex(7), and a congruent visual stimulus can enhance sound representation…”

      (27) Line 412: Very general statement and obviously true: depending on the task, different sensory elements need to be combined to guide adaptive behavior.

      We really appreciate the reviewer and used this sentence (see second paragraph in discussion section).

      (28) Line 428: within → between (?).

      Done.

      (29) Figure 3L is not referenced in the main text. By going through the figures and legends my understanding is that this shows that most neurons have a multisensory response that lies between 2 z-scores of the predicted response in the case of 83% of the sum of the auditory and the visual response. However, how was the 0.83 found? Empirically? Figure S3 shows a neuron that does follow a 100% summation. Perhaps the authors could quantitatively support their estimate of 83% of the A + V sum, by varying the fraction of the sum (80%, 90%, 100% etc.) and showing the distribution of the preferred fraction of the sum across neurons, or by showing the percentage of neurons that fall within 2 z-scores for each of the fractions of the sum.

      Thank you for your detailed feedback and suggestions regarding Figure 3L and the 83% multiplier.

      (1) Referencing Figure 3L:

      Figure 3L is referenced in the text. To enhance clarity, we have revised the text to explicitly highlight its relevance:

      “Specifically, as illustrated in Fig. 3k, the observed multisensory response approximated 83% of the sum of the auditory and visual responses in most cases, as quantified in Fig. 3L.”

      (2) Determination of the 0.83 Multiplier:

      The 0.83 multiplier was determined empirically by comparing observed audiovisual responses with the predicted additive responses (i.e., the sum of auditory and visual responses). For each neuron, we calculated the auditory, visual, and audiovisual responses. We then compared the observed audiovisual response with scaled sums of auditory and visual responses (Fig. 3k), expressed as fractions of the additive prediction (e.g., 0.8, 0.83, 0.9, etc.). We found that when the scaling factor was 0.83, the population-wide difference between predicted and observed multisensory responses, expressed as z-scores, was minimized. Specifically, at this value, the mean z-score across the population was approximately zero (-0.0001±1.617), indicating the smallest deviation between predicted and observed responses.

      (30) Figure 5e: how come the diagonal has 0.5 decoding accuracy within a category? Shouldn't this be high within-category accuracy? If these conditions were untested and it is an issue of the image display it would be informative to test the cross-validated performance within the category as well as a benchmark to compare the across-category performance to. Aside, it is unclear which conventions from Figure 2 are meant by the statement that conventions were the same.

      The diagonal values (~0.5 decoding accuracy) within each category reflect chance-level performance. This occurs because the decoder was trained and tested on the same category conditions in a cross-validated manner, and within-category stimulus discrimination was not the primary focus of our analysis. Specifically, the stimuli within a category shared overlapping features, leading to reduced discriminability for the decoder when distinguishing between them. Our primary objective was to assess cross-category performance rather than within-category accuracy, which may explain the observed pattern in the diagonal values.

      Regarding the reference to Figure 2, we appreciate the reviewer pointing out the ambiguity. To avoid any confusion, we have removed the sentence referencing "conventions from Figure 2" in the legend for Figure 5e, as it does not contribute meaningfully to the understanding of the results.

      (31) Line 473: "movement evoked response", what is meant by this?

      Thank the reviewer for highlighting this point. To clarify, by "movement-evoked response," we are referring to neural activity that is driven by the animal's movements, rather than by sensory inputs. This type of response is typically stereotyped, meaning that it has a consistent, repetitive pattern associated with specific movements, such as whisking, running, or other body or facial movements.

      In our study, we propose that the visually-evoked responses observed within the 150 ms time window after cue onset primarily reflect sensory inputs from the visual stimulus rather than movement-related activity. This interpretation is supported by the response timing: visual-evoked activity occurs within 100 ms of the light flash onset, a timeframe too rapid to be attributed to body or orofacial movements. Additionally, unlike stereotyped movement-evoked responses, the visual responses we observed are discriminative, varying based on specific visual features—a hallmark of sensory processing rather than motor-driven activity.

      We have revised the manuscript as follows (eighth paragraph in discussion section):

      “There is ongoing debate about whether cross-sensory responses in sensory cortices predominantly reflect sensory inputs or are influenced by behavioral factors, such as cue-induced body movements. A recent study shows that sound-clip evoked activity in visual cortex have a behavioral rather than sensory origin and is related to stereotyped movements(49). Several studies have demonstrated sensory neurons can encode signals associated with whisking(50), running(51), pupil dilation(52) and other movements(53). In our study, the responses to visual stimuli in the auditory cortex occurred primarily within a 100 ms window following cue onset. suggests that visual information reaches the AC through rapid pathways. Potential candidates include direct or fast cross-modal inputs, such as pulvinar-mediated pathways(8) or corticocortical connections(5,54), rather than slower associative mechanisms. This early timing suggests that the observed responses were less likely modulated by visually-evoked body or orofacial movements, which typically occur with a delay relative to sensory cue onset(55). ”

      (32) Line 638-642: It is stated that a two-tailed permutation test is done. The cue selectivity can be significantly positive and negative, relative to a shuffle distribution. This is excellent. But then it is stated that if the observed ROC value exceeds the top 5% of the distribution it is deemed significant, which corresponds to a one-tailed test. How were significantly negative ROC values detected with p<0.05?

      Thank you for pointing this out. We confirm that a two-tailed permutation test was indeed used to evaluate cue selectivity. In this approach, significance is determined by comparing the observed ROC value to both tails of the shuffle distribution. Specifically, if the observed ROC value exceeds the top 2.5% or falls below the bottom 2.5% of the distribution, it is considered significant at p< 0.05. This two-tailed test ensures that both significantly positive and significantly negative cue selectivity values are identified.

      To clarify this in the manuscript, we have revised the text as follows:

      “This generated a distribution of values from which we calculated the probability of our observed result. If the observed ROC value exceeds the top 2.5% of the distribution or falls below the bottom 2.5%, it was deemed significant (i.e., p < 0.05).”

      (33) Line 472: the cited paper (reference 52) actually claims that motor-related activity in the visual cortex has an onset before 100ms and thus does not support your claim that the time window precludes any confound of behaviorally mediated activity. Furthermore, that study and reference 47 show that sensory stimuli could be discriminated based on the cue-evoked body movements and are discriminative. A stronger counterargument would be that both studies show very fast auditory-evoked body movements, but only later visually-evoked body movements.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments. As Lohuis et al. (reference 55) demonstrated, activity in the visual cortex (V1) can reflect distinct visual, auditory, and motor-related responses, with the latter often dissociable in timing. In their findings, visually-evoked movement-related activity arises substantially later than the sensory visual response, generally beginning around 200 ms post-stimulus onset. In contrast, auditory-evoked activity in A1 occurs relatively early.

      We have revised the manuscript as follows (eighth paragraph in discussion section):

      “A recent study shows that sound-clip evoked activity in visual cortex have a behavioral rather than sensory origin and is related to stereotyped movements(49). ...This early timing suggests that the observed responses were less likely modulated by visually-evoked body or orofacial movements, which typically occur with a delay relative to sensory cue onset(55). ”

      (34) The training order (multisensory cue first) is important to briefly mention in the main text.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion and have added this information to the main text. The revised text now reads:

      “The training proceeded in two stages. In the first stage, which typically lasted 3-5 weeks, rats were trained to discriminate between two audiovisual cues. In the second stage, an additional four unisensory cues were introduced, training the rats to discriminate a total of six cues.”

      (35) Line 542: As I understand the multisensory rats were trained using the multisensory cue first, so different from the training procedure in the unisensory task rats where auditory trials were learned first.

      Thank you for pointing this out. You are correct that, in the unisensory task, rats were first trained to discriminate auditory cues, followed by visual cues. To improve clarity and avoid any confusion, we have removed the sentence "Similar to the multisensory discrimination task" from the revised text.

      (36) Line 546: Can you note on how the rats were motivated to choose both ports, or whether they did so spontaneously?

      Thank you for your insightful comment. The rats' port choice was spontaneous in this task, as there was no explicit motivation required for choosing between the ports. We have clarified this point in the text to address your concern. The revised sentence now reads:

      “They received a water reward at either port following the onset of the cue, and their port choice was spontaneous.”

      (37) It is important to mention in the main text that the population decoding is actually pseudopopulation decoding. The interpretation is sufficiently important for interpreting the results.

      Thank you for this valuable suggestion. We have revised the text to specify "pseudo-population" instead of "population" to clarify the nature of our decoding analysis. The revised text now reads:

      “Our multichannel recordings enabled us to decode sensory information from a pseudo-population of AC neurons on a single-trial basis. Using cross-validated support vector machine (SVM) classifiers, we examined how this pseudo-population discriminates between stimuli.”

      (38) The term modality selectivity for the description of the multisensory interaction is somewhat confusing. Modality selectivity suggests different responses to the visual or auditory trials. The authors could consider a different terminology emphasizing the multisensory interaction effect.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. We have replaced " modality selectivity " with " multisensory interactive index " (MSI). This term more accurately conveys a tendency for neurons to favor multisensory stimuli over individual sensory modalities (visual or auditory alone).

      (39) In Figures 3 e and g the color code is different from adjacent panels b and c and is to be deciphered from the legend. Consider changing the color coding, or highlight to the reader that the coloring in Figures 3b and c is different from the color code in panels 3 e and g.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s observation. However, we believe that a change in the color coding is not necessary. Figures 3e and 3g differentiate symbols by both shape and color, ensuring accessibility and clarity. This is clearly explained in the figure legend to guide readers effectively.

      (40) Figure S2b: was significance tested here?

      Yes, we did it.

      (41) Figure S2d: test used?

      Yes, test used.

      (42) Line 676: "as appropriate", was a normality test performed prior to statistical test selection?

      In our analysis, we assessed normality before choosing between parametric (paired t-test) and non-parametric (Wilcoxon signed-rank test) methods. We used the Shapiro-Wilk test to evaluate the normality of the data distributions. When data met the assumption of normality, we applied the paired t-test; otherwise, we used the Wilcoxon signed-rank test.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We confirm that a normality test was performed prior to the selection of the statistical test. Specifically, we used the Shapiro-Wilk test to assess whether the data distributions met the assumption of normality. Based on this assessment, we applied the paired t-test for normally distributed data and the Wilcoxon signed-rank test for non-normal data.

      To ensure clarity, we update the "Statistical Analysis" section of the manuscript with the following revised text:

      “For behavioral data, such as mean reaction time differences between unisensory and multisensory trials, cue selectivity and mean modality selectivity across different auditory-visual conditions, comparisons were performed using either the paired t-test or the Wilcoxon signed-rank test. The Shapiro-Wilk test was conducted to assess normality, with the paired t-test used for normally distributed data and the Wilcoxon signed-rank test for non-normal data.”

      (43) Line 679: incorrect, most data is actually represented as mean +- SEM.

      Thank you for pointing this out. In the Results section, we report data as mean ± SD for descriptive statistics, while in the figures, the error bars typically represent the standard error of the mean (SEM) to visually indicate variability around the mean. We have specified in each figure legend whether the error bars represent SD or SEM.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Line 182 - here it sounds like you mean your classifier was trained to decode the modality of the stimulus, when I think what you mean is that you decoded the stimulus contingencies using A/V/AV cues?

      Thank you for pointing out this potential misunderstanding. We would like to clarify that the classifier was trained to decode the stimulus identity (e.g., A<sup>3k</sup> vs. A<sup>10k</sup> for auditory stimuli, V<sup>hz</sup> vs. V<sup>vt</sup> for visual stimuli, and A<sup>3k</sup>V<sup>hz</sup> vs. A<sup>10k</sup>V<sup>vt</sup> for multisensory stimuli) rather than the modality of the stimulus. The goal of the analysis was to determine how well the pseudo-population of AC neurons could distinguish between individual stimuli within the same modality. We have revised the relevant text in the revised manuscript to ensure this distinction is clear. Please see the following:

      “Our multichannel recordings enabled us to decode sensory information from a pseudo-population of AC neurons on a single-trial basis. Using cross-validated support vector machine (SVM) classifiers, we examined how this pseudo-population discriminates stimulus identity (e.g.,  A<sup>3k</sup> vs. A<sup>10k</sup> for auditory stimuli, V<sup>hz</sup> vs. V<sup>vt</sup> for visual stimuli,  A<sup>3k</sup>V<sup>hz</sup> vs. A<sup>10k</sup>V<sup>vt</sup> for multisensory stimuli).”

      (2) Lines 256 - here the authors look to see whether incorrect trials diminish audiovisual integration. I would probably seek to turn the causal direction around and ask are AV neurons critical for behaviour - nevertheless, since this is only correlational the causal direction cannot be unpicked. However, the finding that contralateral responses per se do not result in enhancement is a key control. Showing that multisensory enhancement is less on error trials is a good first step to linking neural activity and perception, but I wonder if the authors could take this further however by seeking to decode choice probabilities as well as stimulus features in an attempt to get a little closer to addressing the question of whether the animals are using these responses for behaviour.

      Thank you for your comment and for highlighting the importance of understanding whether audiovisual (AV) neurons are critical for behavior. As you noted, the causal relationship between AV neural activity and behavioral outcomes cannot be directly determined in our current study due to its correlational nature. We agree that this is an important topic for future exploration. In our study, we examined how incorrect trials influence multisensory enhancement. Our findings show that multisensory enhancement is less pronounced during error trials, providing an initial link between neural activity and behavioral performance. To address your suggestion, we conducted an additional analysis comparing auditory and multisensory selectivity between correct and incorrect choice trials. As shown in Supplementary Fig. 7, both auditory and multisensory selectivity were significantly lower during incorrect trials. This result highlights the potential role of these neural responses in decision-making, suggesting they may extend beyond sensory processing to influence choice selection. We have cited this figure in the Results section as follows: ( the paragraph regarding Impact of incorrect choices on audiovisual integration):

      “Overall, these findings suggest that the multisensory perception reflected by behavioral choices (correct vs. incorrect) might be shaped by the underlying integration strength. Furthermore, our analysis revealed that incorrect choices were associated with a decline in cue selectivity, as shown in Supplementary Fig. 7.”

      We acknowledge your suggestion to decode choice probabilities alongside stimulus features as a more direct approach to exploring whether animals actively use these neural responses for behavior. Unfortunately, in the current study, the low number of incorrect trials limited our ability to perform such analyses reliably. Nonetheless, we are committed to pursuing this direction in subsequent work. We plan to use techniques such as optogenetics in future studies to causally test the role of AV neurons in driving behavior.

      (3) Figure 5E - the purple and red are indistinguishable - could you make one a solid line and keep one dashed?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that the purple and red lines in Figure 5E were difficult to distinguish. To address this concern, we modified the figure by making two lines solid and changing the color of one square, as suggested. These adjustments enhance visual clarity and improve the distinction between them.

      (4) The unisensory control training is a really nice addition. I'm interested to know whether behaviourally these animals experienced an advantage for audiovisual stimuli in the testing phase? This is important information to include as if they don't it is one step closer to linking audiovisual responses in AC to improved behavioural performance (and if they do, we must be suitably cautious in interpretation!).

      Thank you for raising this important point. To address this, we have plotted the behavioral results for each animal (see Author response image 2). The data indicate that performance with multisensory cues is slightly better than with the corresponding unisensory cues. However, given the small sample size (n=3) and the considerable variation in behavioral performance across individuals, we remain cautious about drawing definitive conclusions on this matter. We recognize the need for further investigation to establish a robust link between audiovisual responses in the auditory cortex and improved behavioral performance. In future studies, we plan to include a larger number of animals and more thoroughly explore this relationship to provide a comprehensive understanding.

      Author response image 2.

      (5) Line 339 - I don't think you can say this leads to binding with your current behaviour or neural responses. I would agree there is a memory trace established and a preferential linking in AC neurons.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point. In the revised manuscript, we have clarified that our data suggest the formation of a memory trace and preferential linking in AC neurons. The text has been updated to emphasize this distinction. Please see the revised section below (first paragraph in Discussion section).

      “Interestingly, a subset of auditory neurons not only developed visual responses but also exhibited congruence between auditory and visual selectivity. These findings suggest that multisensory perceptual training establishes a memory trace of the trained audiovisual experiences within the AC and enhances the preferential linking of auditory and visual inputs. Sensory cortices, like AC, may act as a vital bridge for communicating sensory information across different modalities.”

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This valuable manuscript attempts to identify the brain regions and cell types involved in habituation to dark flash stimuli in larval zebrafish. Habituation being a form of learning widespread in the animal kingdom, the investigation of neural mechanisms underlying it is an important endeavor. The authors use a combination of behavioral analysis, neural activity imaging, and pharmacological manipulation to investigate brain-wide mechanisms of habituation. However, the data presented are incomplete and do not show a convincing causative link between pharmacological manipulations, neural activity patterns, and behavioral outcomes.

      We thank the reviewers and editors for their careful reading and reviews of our work. We are grateful that they appreciate the value in our experimental approach and results. We acknowledge what we interpret as the major criticism, that in our original manuscript we focused too heavily on the hypothesized role of GABAergic neurons in driving habituation. This hypothesis will remain only indirectly supported until we can identify a GABAergic population of neurons that drives habituation. Therefore, we have revised our manuscript, decreasing the focus on GABA, and rather emphasizing the following three points:

      1) By performing the first Ca2+ imaging experiments during dark flash habituation, we identify multiple distinct functional classes of neurons which have different adaptation profiles, including non-adapting and potentiating classes. These neurons are spread throughout the brain, indicating that habituation is a complex and distributed process.

      2) By performing a pharmacological screen for dark flash habituation modifiers, we confirm habituation behaviour manifests from multiple distinct molecular mechanisms that independently modulate different behavioural outputs. We also implicate multiple novel pathways in habituation plasticity, some of which we have validated through dose-response studies.

      3) By combining pharmacology and Ca2+ imaging, we did not observe a simple relationship between the behavioural effects of a drug treatment and functional alterations in neurons. This observation further supports our model that habituation is a multidimensional process, for which a simple circuit model will be insufficient.

      We would like to point out that, in our opinion, there appears to be a factual error in the final sentence of the eLife assessment:

      “However, the data presented are incomplete and do not show a convincing causative link between pharmacological manipulations, neural activity patterns, and behavioral outcomes”.

      We believe that a “convincing causative link” between pharmacological manipulations and behavioural outcomes has been clearly demonstrated for PTX, Melatonin, Estradiol and Hexestrol through our dose response experiments. Similarly a link between pharmacology and neural activity patterns has also been directly demonstrated. As mentioned in (3), we acknowledge that our data linking neural activity and behaviour is more tenuous, as will be more explicitly reflected in our revised manuscript.

      Nevertheless, we maintain that one of the primary strengths of our study is our attempt to integrate analyses that span the behavioural, pharmacological, and neural activity-levels.

      In our revised manuscript, we have substantially altered the Abstract and Discussion, removed the Model figure (previously Figure 8), and changed the title from :

      “Inhibition drives habituation of a larval zebrafish visual response”

      to:

      “Functional and pharmacological analyses of visual habituation learning in larval zebrafish”

      Text changes from the initial version are visible as track changes in the word document: “LamireEtAl_2022_eLifeRevisions.docx”

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This manuscript addresses the important and understudied issue of circuit-level mechanisms supporting habituation, particularly in pursuit of the possible role of increases in the activity of inhibitory neurons in suppressing behavioral output during long-term habituation. The authors make use of many of the striking advantages of the larval zebrafish to perform whole brain, single neuronal calcium imaging during repeated sensory exposure, and high throughput screening of pharmacological agents in freely moving, habituating larvae. Notably, several blockers/antagonists of GABAA(C) receptors completely suppress habituation of the O-bend escape response to dark flashes, suggesting a key role for GABAergic transmission in this form of habituation. Other substances are identified that strikingly enhance habituation, including melatonin, although here the suggested mechanistic insight is less specific. To add to these findings, a number of functional clusters of neurons are identified in the larval brain that has divergent activity through habituation, with many clusters exhibiting suppression of different degrees, in line with adaptive filtration during habituation, and a single cluster that potentiates during habituation. Further assessment reveals that all of these clusters include GABAergic inhibitory neurons and excitatory neurons, so we cannot take away the simple interpretation that the potentiating cluster of neurons is inhibitory and therefore exerts an influence on the other adapting (depressing) clusters to produce habituation. Rather, a variety of interpretations remain in play.

      Overall, there is great potential in the approach that has been used here to gain insight into circuit-level mechanisms of habituation. There are many experiments performed by the authors that cannot be achieved currently in other vertebrate systems, so the manuscript serves as a potential methodological platform that can be used to support a rich array of future work. While there are several key observations that one can take away from this manuscript, a clear interpretation of the role of GABAergic inhibitory neurons in habituation has not been established. This potential feature of habituation is emphasized throughout, particularly in the introduction and discussion sections, meaning that one is obliged as a reader to interrogate whether the results as they currently stand really do demonstrate a role for GABAergic inhibition in habituation. Currently, the key piece of evidence that may support this conclusion is that picrotoxin, which acts to block some classes of GABA receptors, prevents habituation. However, there are interpretations of this finding that do not specifically require a role for modified GABAergic inhibition. For instance, by lowering GABAergic inhibition, an overall increase in neural activity will occur within the brain, in this case below a level that could cause a seizure. That increase in activity may simply prevent learning by massively increasing neural noise and therefore either preventing synaptic plasticity or, more likely, causing indiscriminate synaptic strengthening and weakening that occludes information storage. Sensory processing itself could also be disrupted, for instance by altering the selectivity of receptive fields. Alternatively, it could be that the increase in neural activity produced by the blockade of inhibition simply drives more behavioral output, meaning that more excitatory synaptic adaptation is required to suppress that output. The authors propose two specific working models of the ways in which GABAergic inhibition could be implemented in habituation. An alternative model, in which GABAergic neurons are not themselves modified but act as a key intermediary between Hebbian assemblies of excitatory neurons that are modified to support memory and output neurons, is not explored. As yet, these or other models in which inhibition is not required for habituation, have not been fully tested.

      This manuscript describes a really substantial body of work that provides evidence of functional clusters of neurons with divergent responses to repeated sensory input and an array of pharmacological agents that can influence the rate of a fundamentally important form of learning.

      We thank the reviewer for their careful consideration of our work, and we agree that multiple models of how habituation occurs remain plausible. As discussed above and below in more detail, we have revised our manuscript to better reflect this. We hope the reviewer will agree that this has improved the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this study, Lamire et al. use a calcium imaging approach, behavioural tests, and pharmacological manipulations to identify the molecular mechanisms behind visual habituation. Overall, the manuscript is well-written but difficult to follow at times. They show a valuable new drug screen paradigm to assess the impact of pharmacological compounds on the behaviour of larval zebrafish, the results are convincing, but the description of the work is sometimes confusing and lacking details.

      We thank the reviewer for identifying areas where our description lacked details. We apologize for these omissions and have attempted to add relevant details as described below. We note that all of the analysis code is available online, though we appreciate that navigating and extracting data from these files is not straightforward.

      The volumetric calcium imaging of habituation to dark flashes is valuable, but the mix of responses to visual cues that are not relevant to the dark flash escape, such as the slow increase back to baseline luminosity, lowers the clarity of the results. The link between the calcium imaging results and free-swimming behaviour is not especially convincing, however, that is a common issue of head-restrained imaging with larval zebrafish.

      We agree with the reviewer that the design of our stimulus, and specifically the slow increase back to baseline luminosity, is perhaps confusing for the interpretation of some of the response profiles of neurons. We originally chose this stimulus type (rather than a square wave of 1s of darkness, for example) in order to better highlight the responses of the larvae to the onset of darkness (rather than the response to abruptly returning to full brightness). We therefore believe that the slow return to baseline is an important feature of the stimulus,, which better separates activity related to the fast offset from activity related to light onset. And since all of the foundational behavioural data (Randlett et al., Current Biology 2019), and pharmacological data, used this stimulus type, we did not change it for the Ca2+ imaging experiments. Our use of relatively slow nuclear-targeted GCaMP indicators also means that the temporal resolution of our imaging experiments is relatively poor, and therefore we felt that using a stimulus that highlighted light offset might be best.

      We also fully acknowledge in the Results section that the behaviour of the head embedded fish is not the same as that of free-swimming fish, and that therefore establishing a direct link between these types of experiments is complicated. This is an unavoidable caveat in the head-embedded style experiments. To further emphasize this, we have also added a paragraph to the discussion where this is acknowledged explicitly.

      “We also found that the same pharmacological treatments that result in strong alterations to habituation behaviour in freely swimming larvae ([fig:5]), resulted in relatively subtle and complex functional alterations in the circuit ([fig:6]). Making direct comparisons between freely-swimming behaviour and head-fixed Ca2+ imaging is always challenging due to the differences in behaviour observed in the two contexts, and therefore our failure to identify a clear logic in these experiments may have technical explanations that will require approaches to measure neural activity from unrestrained and freely-behaving animals to resolve . Alternatively, these results are again consistent with the idea that habituation is a multidimensional and perhaps highly non-linear phenomenon in the circuit, which cannot be captured by a simple model.”

      The strong focus on GABA seems unwarranted based on the pharmacological results, as only Picrotoxinin gives clear results, but the other antagonists do not give a consistent results. On the other hand, the melatonin receptor agonists, and oestrogen receptor agonists give more consistent results, including more convincing dose effects.

      We agree that our manuscript focused too strongly on GABA and have toned this down. We are currently performing genetic experiments aimed at identifying the Melatonin, Estrogen and GABA receptors that function during habituation, which we think will be necessary to move beyond pharmacology and the necessary caveats that such experiments bring.

      The pharmacological manipulation of the habituation circuits mapped in the first part does not arrive at any satisfying conclusion, which is acknowledged by the authors. These results do reinforce the disconnect between the calcium imaging and the behavioural experiments and undercut somewhat the proposed circuit-level model.

      We agree with this criticism and have toned down the focus on GABA specifically in the circuit, and have removed the speculative model previously in Figure 8.

      Overall, the authors did identify interesting new molecular pathways that may be involved in habituation to dark flashes. Their screening approach, while not novel, will be a powerful way to interrogate other behavioural profiles. The authors identified circuit loci apparently involved in habituation to dark flashes, and the potentiation and no adaptation clusters have not been previously observed as far as I know.

      The data will be useful to guide follow-up experiments by the community on the new pathway candidates that this screen has uncovered, including behaviours beyond dark flash habituation.

      We again thank the reviewer for both their support of our approach, and in pointing out where our conclusions were not well supported by our data.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      To analyze the circuit mechanisms leading to the habituation of the O-bed responses upon repeated dark flashes (DFs), the authors performed 2-photon Ca2+ imaging in larvae expressing nuclear-targeted GCaMP7f pan-neuronally panning the majority of the midbrain, hindbrain, pretectum, and thalamus. They found that while the majority of neurons across the brain depress their responsiveness during habituation, a smaller population of neurons in the dorsal regions of the brain, including the torus longitudinalis, cerebellum, and dorsal hindbrain, showed the opposite pattern, suggesting that motor-related brain regions contain non-depressed signals, and therefore likely contribute to habituation plasticity.

      Further analysis using affinity propagation clustering identified 12 clusters that differed both in their adaptation to repeated DFs, as well as the shape of their response to the DF.

      Next by the pharmacological screening of 1953 small molecule compounds with known targets in conjunction with the high-throughput assay, they found that 176 compounds significantly altered some aspects of measured behavior. Among them, they sought to identify the compounds that 1) have minimal effects on the naive response to DFs, but strong effects during the training and/or memory retention periods, 2) have minimal effects on other aspects of behaviors, 3) show similar behavioral effects to other compounds tested in the same molecular pathway, and identified the GABAA/C Receptor antagonists Bicuculline, Amoxapine, and Picrotoxinin (PTX). As partial antagonism of GABAAR and/or GABACR is sufficient to strongly suppress habituation but not generalized behavioral excitability, they concluded that GABA plays a very prominent role in habituation. They also identified multiple agonists of both Melatonin and Estrogen receptors, indicating that hormonal signaling may also play a prominent role in habituation response.

      To integrate the results of the Ca2+ imaging experiments with the pharmacological screening results, the authors compared the Ca2+ activity patterns after treatment with vehicle, PTX, or Melatonin in the tethered larvae. The behavioral effects of PTX and Melatonin were much smaller compared with the very strong behavioral effects in freely-swimming animals, but the authors assumed that the difference was significant enough to continue further experiments. Based on the hypothesis that Melatonin and GABA cooperate during habituation, they expected PTX and Melatonin to have opposite effects. This was not the case in their results: for example, the size of the 12(Pot, M) neuron population was increased by both PTX and Melatonin, suggesting that pharmacological manipulations that affect habituation behavior manifest in complex functional alterations in the circuit, making capturing these effects by a simple difficult.

      Since the 12(𝑃𝑜𝑡, 𝑀) neurons potentiate their responses and thus could act to progressively depress the responses of other neuronal classes, they examined the identity of these neurons with GABA neurons. However, GABAergic neurons in the habituating circuit are not characterized by their Adaptation Profile, suggesting that global manipulations of GABAergic signaling through PTX have complex manifestations in the functional properties of neurons.

      Overall, the authors have performed an admirably large amount of work both in whole-brain neural activity imaging and pharmacological screening. However, they are not successful in integrating the results of both experiments into an acceptably consistent interpretation due to the incongruency of the results of different experiments. Although the authors present some models for interpretation, it is not easy for me to believe that this model would help the readers of this journal to deepen the understanding of the mechanisms for habituation in DF responses at the neural circuit level.

      This reviewer would rather recommend the authors divide this manuscript into two and publish two papers by adding some more strengthening data for each part such as cellular manipulations, e.g. ablation to prove the critical involvement of 12(Pot, M) neurons in habituation.

      We thank the reviewer for their careful consideration of our manuscript, and we agree that our emphasis on a particular model of DF habituation, namely the potentiation of GABAergic synapses, was overly speculative. We hope they will agree that our revised manuscript better reflect the results from our experiments, and we have tried to more specifically emphasize the incongruency in our behavioural and Ca2+ imaging data after pharmacological treatment, which we agree shows that a simple model is insufficient to capture both of these sets of observations.

      We have opted not to split the paper into two, since we feel that the collective message of this paper and approach combining molecular and functional analysis will be of interest. Moreover, we feel that the molecular and functional analyses feed off of each other and provide a level of complementarity that would be lost if the manuscript would be split, even if the message in this particular case is rather complex

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      There is much to commend about this manuscript. The advantages of studying habituation in the zebrafish larva are very clearly demonstrated, including the wonderful calcium imaging across the brain and the relatively high throughput screening of large numbers of different pharmacological agents. The habituation to dark flashes in freely moving larvae is also striking and the very large effect size serves the screening beautifully. Thus, if we take the really substantial amount of work of a very high standard that has been done here, there is clearly potential for an important new contribution to the literature. However, as you will see from my public review, I am of the opinion that a specific role for the modification of GABAergic inhibitory systems has not yet been established through this work. While the potential role for GABAergic inhibitory neurons in habituation, either as the key modifiable element or as an intermediary between memory and motor output, is an attractive theory with many strengths, your study as it currently stands does not categorically demonstrate that one of those two options holds. For instance, the more traditional view, that adaptive filtration is mediated by weakened synaptic connectivity between excitatory sensory systems and excitatory motor output or reduced intrinsic excitability in those same neurons, could still be in operation here. By lowering GABAergic influence over post-synaptic targets with picrotoxin, it is possible that motor output remains highly active, and even lower activity or synaptic drive from those excitatory sensory systems that feed into the output may still reliably produce behavioral output. Alternatively, it could be the formation of a memory of the familiar stimulus is disrupted by reduced inhibition that alters sensory coding either by introducing noise or reducing the selectivity of receptive fields. I believe that there are several options to address these concerns:

      1) You could change the emphasis of the manuscript so that it is less focused on inhibition and instead emphasizes the categorization of clusters of neurons that have divergent responses during habituation, including either strong suppression to potentiation. To this, you add a high throughput screening system with a wide range of different agents being tested, several of which produce a significant effect on habituation in either direction. These observations in themselves provide powerful building blocks for future work.

      2) If GABAergic neurons play a key role in habituation in this paradigm, then picrotoxin is having its effect by blocking receptors on excitatory neurons. Thus, it seems that selectively imaging GABAergic neurons before and after the application of these drugs is not likely to reveal the contribution of GABAergic synaptic influence on excitatory targets. More important is to get a stronger sense of how the GABAergic neurons change their activity throughout habituation and then influence the downstream target neurons of those GABAergic neurons (some of which may themselves be inhibitory and participating in disinhibition). For instance, you could interrogate whether anti-correlations in activity levels exist between presynaptic inhibitory neurons and putative post-synaptic targets. This analysis could be further bolstered by removing that relationship in the presence of Picrotoxin, thereby demonstrating a direct influence of inhibition from a GABAergic presynaptic partner on a postsynaptic target. While this would constitute a lot more work, it is likely to yield greater insight into a specific role for GABAergic neurons in habituation, and I suspect much of that information is in the existing datasets.

      3) To really reveal causal roles for inhibition in this form of habituation, it seems to me that there needs to be some selective intervention in GABAergic neuronal activity, ideally bidirectionally, to transiently interrupt or enhance habituation. Optogenetic or chemogenetic stimulation/inactivation is one option in this regard, which I imagine would be challenging to implement and certainly involves a lot of further work, particularly if you are then going to target specific subpopulations of GABAergic neurons. I appreciate that this option seems way beyond the scope of a review process and would probably constitute a follow-up study.

      We agree with the reviewer that we have not “categorically demonstrated” that GABAergic inhibitory neurons drive habituation by increasing their influence on the circuit, and appreciate the suggestions for how to reformulate our manuscript to better reflect this. We have opted to follow suggestion (1), and have considerably changed the focus of the manuscript.

      The additional analysis suggested in (2) is very interesting, but since we can not identify which cells are inhibitory in our imaging experiments with picrotoxinin treatment, nor which are pre- or post-synaptic, we feel that this analysis will be very unconstrained. Also, if GABA is acting as an inhibitory neurotransmitter, it therefore is expected to act to drive anticorrelations among pre and postsynaptic neurons through inhibition. Therefore, blockage of GABA through PTX would be expected to result in increased correlations, regardless of our hypothesized role of neurons during habituation. Our current efforts are aimed at identifying critical neurons driving habituation plasticity, and we will perform such analysis once we have mechanisms for identifying these neurons.

      Finally, we agree that (3) is the obvious and only way to demonstrate causation here, and this is where we are working towards. However, since we currently have no means of genetically targeting these neurons, we are not able to perform these suggested experiments today.

      I have some additional concerns that I would really appreciate you addressing:

      1) The behavioral habituation is striking in the freely moving larvae, but very hard to monitor in the larvae that are immobilized for calcium imaging. Are there steps that could be taken in the long run to improve direct observation of the habituation effect in these semi-stationary fish? For instance, is it possible to observe eye movements or some more subtle behavioral readout than the O-bend reflex? I apologize if this is a naïve question, but I am not entirely familiar with this specific experimental paradigm.

      In the Dark Flash paradigm, we do not have readouts beyond the “O-bend” response itself, which is characterized by a large-angle bend of the tail and turning maneuver. We have not observed other, more subtle behavioural responses, such as eye or fin movements, for example. If we would be able to identify alternative behavioural outputs that were more robustly performed during head-embedded preparations, this would indeed be an advantage allowing us to more directly interpret the Ca2+ imaging results with respect to behaviour.

      2) The dark flash as a stimulus to which the larvae habituate is obviously used as a powerful and ethologically relevant stimulus. However, it does leave an element of traditional habituation paradigms out, which is a novel stimulus that can be used to immediately re-instate the habituated response (otherwise known as dishabituation). Is there a way that you can imagine implementing that with zebrafish larvae, for instance through systematically altering a visual feature, such as spatial frequency or orientation? This would be a powerful development in my view as it would not only allow you to rule out motor or sensory fatigue as an underlying cause of reduced behavior but also it would provide an extra feature that strengthens your assessment of neuronal response profiles in candidate populations of inhibitory and excitatory neurons.

      We agree that identifying a dishabituating stimulus would be very powerful for our experiments. For short-term habituation of the acoustic startle response, Wolman et al demonstrated that dishabituation occurs after a touch stimulus (Wolman et al., PNAS, 2011; https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1107156108). We attempted to dishabituate the O-Bend response with tap and touch stimuli, and this unfortunately did not occur. Our understanding of dishabituation is that this generally requires a second stimulus that elicits the same behaviour as the habituated stimulus (e.g. both acoustic and touch-stimuli elicit the Mauthner-dependent C-bend response). In zebrafish the only stimulus that has been identified that elicits the O-bend is a dark-flash. This lack of an appropriate alternative stimulus is perhaps why we have been unsuccessful in identifying a dishabituating stimulus.

      3) You have written about the concept of 'short' and 'long' response shapes when using calcium imaging as a proxy for neural activity, surmising that the short response shape may reflect transient bursting. Although calcium imaging obviously has many advantages, this feature reveals one notable limitation of calcium imaging in contrast to electrophysiology, in that the time course of the signal is considerably longer and does not allow you with confidence to fully detect the response profile of neurons. Is there some kind of further deconvolution process that you could implement to improve the fidelity of your calcium imaging to the occurrence of action potentials? The burstiness of neurons is obviously important as it can indicate a particular type of neuron (for instance fast-spiking inhibitory neurons) or it might reveal a changing influence on post-synaptic neurons. For instance, bursting can be a response to inhibition due to the triggering of T-type calcium channels in response to hyperpolarization.

      One of the major limitations to Ca2+ imaging is the lack of temporal resolution. In our particular approach, using nuclear-targeted H2B-GCaMP indicators, further reduces our temporal resolution. Deconvolution approaches can be used in some instances to approximate spike rate, since the rise-time of Ca2+ indicators can be relatively fast. However, in our imaging we chose to image larger volumes at the expense of scan rate, where our imaging is performed at only 2hz. Therefore, deconvolution and spike-rate estimation is not appropriate. Considering these limitations, we would argue that the fact that we can observe differences in kinetics of the 'short' and 'long' response shapes indicates that they likely show very different response kinetics, which we hope to confirm by electrophysiology once we have established ways of targeting these neurons for recordings.

      4) I note that among the many substances you screened with is MK801. An obvious candidate mechanism in habituation is the NMDA receptor, given the importance of this receptor for so many forms of learning and bidirectional synaptic plasticity. If I am to understand correctly, this NMDA receptor blocker actually enhances habituation in the zebrafish larvae, similar to melatonin. That is a very surprising observation, which is worth looking into further or at least discussed in the manuscript. The finding would, at least, be consistent with the idea that plasticity is not occurring at excitatory synapses and could potentially bolster the argument that plasticity of inhibitory synapses is at play in this particular form of habituation.

      This is a very important point. We were also particularly interested in MK801, which has been shown to inhibit other forms of habituation, like short-term acoustic habituation (Wolman et al., PNAS, 2011; https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1107156108). In our experiments we did see that fish become even less responsive to dark flashes when treated with MK-801 (SSMD fingerprint data: Prob-Train = -0.39, Prob-Test = -1.58) which would indicate that MK-801 promotes dark flash habituation, similar to Melatonin. However, we also observed that MK-801 caused a decrease in the performance in the other visual assay we tested: the optomotor response (OMR-Perf = -0.93), indicating that MK-801 causes a generalized decrease in visual responses, perhaps by acting on circuits within the retina. Therefore, based on these experiments with global drug applications, we cannot determine if MK-801 influences the plasticity process in dark-flash habituation, and this is why we did not pursue it further in this project.

      Anyway, I hope that you take these suggestions as constructive and, in the spirit that they are intended, as possible routes for improving an already very interesting manuscript.

      We are very grateful for your suggestions, which we feel has helped us to improve our manuscript substantially.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Overall, the manuscript is well-written, but confusing at times. The results are not always presented in a consistent way, and I found myself having to dig in the raw data or code to find answers. There is a certain disconnect between the free-swimming results, and the calcium imaging, which is somewhat inevitable based on other published work. But I am unsure of what they each bring to the other, as the results from Fig.6 do not match at all the changes observed in the behavioural assays, it almost feels like two separate studies and the inconsistencies make the model appear unlikely.

      We agree that there is a disconnect at the behavioural level in our free-swimming and head-embedded imaging experiments. However, this does not necessarily mean that the activity we observe during the imaging experiments cannot be informative about processes that are also occurring in freely-swimming fish. For example, it is possible that the dark-flash circuit is responding and habitating similarly in the head-embedded and freely-swimming preparations, but that in the latter context there is an additional blockade on motor output that massively decreases the propensity of the fish to initiate any movements. In such a case, the “disconnect between the free-swimming results, and the calcium imaging” would indicate that the relationship between neural activity and habituation behaviour is rather complex.

      Without a method to record activity from freely swimming fish at our disposal, we can not determine this, one way or the other.

      We hope that we now acknowledge these concerns appropriately in the discussion:

      “We also found that the same pharmacological treatments that result in strong alterations to habituation behaviour in freely swimming larvae ([fig:5]), resulted in relatively subtle and complex functional alterations in the circuit ([fig:6]). Making direct comparisons between freely-swimming behaviour and head-fixed Ca2+ imaging is always challenging due to the differences in behaviour observed in the two contexts, and therefore our failure to identify a clear logic in these experiments may have technical explanations that will require approaches to measure neural activity from unrestrained and freely-behaving animals to resolve . Alternatively, these results are again consistent with the idea that habituation is a multidimensional and perhaps highly non-linear phenomenon in the circuit, which cannot be captured by a simple model. “

      I am not convinced by the results surrounding GABA, from the inconsistent GABA receptor antagonist profile to the post hoc identification of GABAergic neurons as it is currently done in the manuscript. I think that the current focus on GABA does a disservice to the manuscript. However, the novel findings surrounding the potential role of Melatonin, and Estrogen, in habituation are quite interesting.

      We agree that we focused too heavily on our hypothesized role for GABA in our original manuscript, and we hope that the reviewer agrees that our updated manuscript is an improvement. We also thank the reviewer for their interest in our Melatonin and Estrogen results, for which follow up studies are ongoing to characterize the effects of these hormones and their receptors on habituation.

      There is an assumption that all the adaptation profiles are related to the DF (although that is somewhat alleviated in the discussions of the ON responses) and not to the luminosity changes. But there is no easy way to deconvolve those two in the current experiments. I would like the timing of the fluorescence rise to be quantified compared to the dark flash stimulus onset, potentially spike inference methods could help with giving a better idea of the timing of those responses. Based on the behavioural responses that were <500ms in Randlet O et al, eLife, 2019; we would expect only the fastest DF responses to be linked to the behaviour.

      We agree that we are unable to disambiguate responses to the dark flash that initiate the O-bend response, and those that are related to only changes in luminosity. As discussed above, our Ca2+ imaging approach is severely limited in temporal resolution and therefore spike inference methods are not appropriate.

      Major comments

      Fig.1: There seems to be a very variable lag between the motor events and DF responses, furthermore, it does not seem that the motor responses follow a similar habituation rate as in 1Bi. Although this only shows the smoothed 'movement cluster' from the rastermap, it could hide individual variability. It would be important to know what the 'escape' rate was in the embedded experiment, as

      Fig.1 sup.1 seems to indicate there was little to no habituation. It would also be needed to know which motor events are considered linked to the DF stimulus, and how that was decided. Was there a movement intensity threshold and lag limit in the response?

      We interpret this concern as relating to the data presented in Figure 6A, where we quantify the habituation rate in the head-embedded experiments. As we have discussed, both above and in the manuscript, we saw very strongly muted responses to DFs in the head-embedded preparation, but we neglected to describe our method of quantifying the responses. We have added the following description to the methods:

      “To quantify responses to the dark flash stimuli we used motion artifacts in the imaging data to identify frames associated with movements ([fig:1]-[fig:S1]). Motion artifact was quantified using the “corrXY” parameter from suite2p, which reflects the peak of phase correlation comparing each acquired frame and reference image used for motion correction. The “motion power” was quantified as the standard deviation of a 3-frame rolling window, which was smoothed in time using a Savitzky-Golay filter (window length = 15 frames, polyorder = 2). A response to a dark flash was defined as a “motion power” signal greater than 3 (z-score) occurring within 10-seconds of the dark-flash onset, and was used to quantify habituation in the head-embedded preparation ([fig:6]A).“

      Line 94: This seems to be a strong claim based on the sparse presence of non-habituating, or potentiating, neurons in downstream regions. However, these neurons appear to be extremely rare, and as mentioned in my comment above, the behavioural habituation appears minimal. These neurons could encode the luminosity and be part of other responses, such as light-seeking in Karpenko S et al, eLife, 2020 or escape directionality in Heap et al, Neuron, 2018. Furthermore, dimming information has been shown to have parallel processing pathways in Robles E et al, JCN, 2020; so it would make sense that not all the observed responses in this manuscript would be involved in behavioural habituation to dark flashes.

      We agree that without functional interventions, we do not know which of the neurons we have categorized are specifically involved in the dark flash response habituation. It is possible that the non-adapting and potentiating neurons are involved in other behaviours. We have therefore removed this statement.

      Line 103: It appears that several of those responses are to the changes in luminosity and not the DF itself, especially the ON and sustained responses. Based on the previous DF habituation study from Randlet O et al, eLife, 2019; the latency of the response is below 0.5s. So the behaviour-relevant responses must only include the shortest latency one, as discussed above.

      We appreciate the point that the reviewer is making here, but we are less clear about what the difference between “changes in luminosity” and a “dark flash” response are, since a dark flash consists of a change in luminosity. We take it that the reviewer means the difference between a luminance stimulus that elicits an O-bend, from one that does not. In order to disambiguate the two, one would likely need to use stimuli where the luminosity changes, but do not elicit O-bends.

      Perhaps due to the limited temporal resolution of our Ca2+ imaging data, we do not see a clear difference in the onset of the stimulus response for any of the functional clusters that would help us to determine which neurons are more relevant to the acute DF response.

      Fig.2B. It is very difficult to make out the actual average z-scored fluorescence, a supplementary figure would help by making these bigger. A plot to quantify the maximum response would also be useful to judge how it changes between the first few and few last DF. Another plot to give the time between the onset of the responses and the onset of the DF stimulus is also needed to judge which cluster may be relevant to the DF escapes observed in the free-swimming experiments.

      We agree with the reviewer that interpreting these datasets are challenging. We did include the actual average z-scored fluorescence in Figure 6—figure supplement 1, panel D. This figure also includes a comparison between the predicted Ca2+ response to the dark flash (the stimulus convolved with the approximate GCaMP response kernel), which shows that all OFF-responding neuronal classes show very similar rise time response kinetics, and thus this analysis does not help to judge whether a cluster is more or less relevant to O-bend responses in the free-swimming experiments. We appreciate that there are differences in opinion about the best way to present the data, but we have opted to leave our original presentation.

      Line 130: Is a correlation below 0.1 meaningful or significant? It does not seem like this cluster would be a motor or decision cluster.

      Our goal with this correlational analysis to motor signals was to identify if certain clusters of DF responsive neurons were more associated with motor output, and therefore may be more downstream in the sensori-motor cascade. Cluster 4 showed the highest median correlation across the population of cells. Whether a median correlation of ~0.1 is “meaningful” is impossible for us to answer, but it is highly “significant” in the statistical sense, as is evident by the 99.99999% confidence intervals plotted. We note that these cells were not selected based on their correlation to the motor stimulus, but only to the dark flash stimulus. There are “motor” clusters that show much higher correlations to the motors signals, as is evident in Figure 1G.

      Line 165: Did the changes observed for Pimozide fall below the significance threshold, were lethal, or were the results not repeated? It does not appear in source data 2.

      Pimozide was lethal in our screen and therefore does not appear in the source data file. Indeed, in our previous experiments with Pimozide we had already established that a 10uM dose is lethal, and that the maximal effective dose we tried was 1uM as reported in (Randlett et al., Current Biology, 2019).

      We have clarified this in the text:

      “While the false negative rate is difficult to determine since so little is known about the pharmacology of the system, we note that of the three small molecules we previously established to alter dark flash habituation that were included in the screen, Clozapine, Haloperidol and Pimozide , the first two were identified among our hits while Pimozide was lethal at the 10\muM screening concentration.”

      Fig.1B and Fig.3B are the same data, which is awkward and should be explicitly stated. But the legends do not match in terms of the rest period. Which is correct? It is also important to note the other behavioural assays in the 'rest' period.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this discrepancy in the legend. We have corrected the typo in the figure legend of Figure 3B :

      “Habituation results in a progressive decrease in responsiveness to dark flashes repeated at 1-minute intervals, delivered in 4 training blocks of 60 stimuli, separated by 1hr of rest (from 0:00-7:00).”

      We have also added a statement that the data is the same as that in Figure 1B.

      Figure 3-4: SSMD fingerprint, there is no description of the different behavioural parameters. What they represent is left to the reader's inference. There is no mention of SpontDisp in the GitHub for example, so it is hard to know how these different parameters were measured. Even referring to the previous manuscript on habituation (Randlet O et al, eLife, 2019) does not shed light on most of them, for example, I suppose TwoMvmt represents the 'double responses' from the previous manuscript. Furthermore, there are inconsistencies between 3C and 4B, some minor (SpontDisp becomes SpntDisp), but Curve-Tap has disappeared for example, and I suspect became BendAmp-Tap. A more thorough description of these measures, and making the naming scheme consistent, are essential for readers to know what they are looking at.

      We again thank the reviewer for their careful assessment of our data, and we apologize for this sloppiness. We have gone through and made the naming of these parameters consistent in both figures, and have added another supplementary table that describes in more detail what each parameter is, and how it relates to the analysis code (Figure3_sourcedata3_SSMDFingerprintParameters.xls). This was an essential missing piece of information from our original manuscript.

      Line 206: While this prioritization makes sense, how was it implemented, how was the threshold decided and which were they? A table, or supplementary figure, would help to clarify the reason behind the choices. Fig.4C being cropped only around the response probability makes it impossible to judge if the criteria were respected, as the main heatmap is too small. For example, the choice of GABA receptor antagonists is somewhat puzzling, as besides PTX it does not seem that the other compounds had strong effects, with Amoxapine for example having seemingly as much effect on Naive and Train, with little in Test. And Bicuculline gave negative SSMD for prob in the three cases. The dose-response for PTX does lend credence to its effect, but I would have liked the other compounds, especially bicuculline. The melatonin results, for example, are much more convincing and interesting in our opinion.

      While in hindsight it may have been possible to do the hit prioritization in a systematic way using thresholding and ranking, we did this manually by inspecting the clustered fingerprints. We have clarified this in the text: “This manual prioritization led to the identification of the GABAA/C Receptor antagonists…”

      While we agree that it is not possible to judge how well we performed this prioritization based on the images presented, we note that we do provide the full fingerprint data in the supplementary data, for which the reader is welcome to draw their own conclusions.

      We have not performed further experiments with amoxapine, so we can not comment further on this. We did perform additional experiments with bicuculline, for which we did see effects similar to those of PTX, were habituation was inhibited. However, the effects are weaker and more variable than what we observe with PTX, and bicuculline also inhibits the initial responses of the larvae, causing their Naive response to be lower. Therefore we did not include it in our manuscript. We include these data here in Author response image 1 to reassure the Reviewer that picrotoxinin is not the only GABA Receptor antagonist for which we see inhibitory effects on habituation.

      Author response image 1.

      Fig.6: Why was the melatonin concentration used only 1um instead of 10um on the screen?

      Based on dose response experiments (Figure 5B, and others not shown), we found that the effect of Melatonin on habituation saturates at about 1uM, and therefore we used this dose.

      Line 277: As the correlation with motor output is marginal at best, and the authors recognize the lack of behaviour in tethered animals, I would be careful about such speculation. Especially since the other changes are complex and go in all directions.

      While we appreciate the reviewer's caution, we feel that our statement is appropriately hedged using “might be”. We have also removed the statement “and thus is most closely associated with behavioural initiation”.

      We now state:

      “However, opposite effects of PTX and Melatonin were observed for 4_L^{strgD} neurons ([fig:6]C), which we found to be most strongly correlated with motor output ([fig:2]F). Therefore, this class might be most critical for habituation of response Probability.”

      Fig.7: I am not sure how convincing these results are. 7F may have been more convincing, but to be thorough the authors would need to register the Gad1b identity to the calcium imaging and use their outline to extract the neuron's fluorescence. As it is, in the tectum, it is hard to be sure that all the identified neurons are indeed Gad1b positive, as that population is intermingled with other neuronal populations. The authors should consider the approach of Lovett-Barron M et al, Nat Neuro, 2020. Alternatively, the authors can tone down the language used in this section to match the confidence level of the association they propose.

      Figure 7A-E are what can be considered “virtual colocalization” analyses, where we are comparing the localization of data acquired in different experiments using image registration to common atlas coordinates. We agree that these results alone will never be very strong evidence for the identification of individual cells. The MultiMAP approach of Lovett-Barron is a powerful approach, though it makes the assumption that registration accuracy will be subcellular, which in practice may often not be the case. We believe that a better approach is to label the cells of interest during the Ca2+ imaging experiment itself, as we did 7F and G. The challenge in this experiment is binarizing the ROIs and thus deciding what is and is not a Gad1b-positive cell. In our opinion, the fact that these two independent experiments came to the same conclusion regarding Cluster 10 and 11 is good evidence that these cell types are likely predominantly GABAergic.

      As discussed above, we have re-written the manuscript to tone down our claims about the role of GABA and GABAergic neurons in habituation, which we hope the reviewer will agree better reflects the limitations of the data in Figure 6 and 7.

      Line 317: Based on the somewhat inconsistent results of the other GABA antagonists, I would be careful. Picrotoxin has been reported to antagonize other receptors besides GABA, see Das P et al, Neuropharma, 2003. So the results may be explained by a complex set of effects on multiple pathways with PTX.

      Off target effects are an important concern with any pharmacological experiment, and perhaps especially in zebrafish where receptors and targets can be quite divergent from those in mammals where most drug targets have been characterized. We have added this sentiment to the discussion:

      “We cannot rule out the possibility that off-targets of PTX, or subtle non-specific changes in excitatory/inhibitory balance alter habituation behaviour.”

      Line 400-403, 430: There are some conflicting statements regarding the potential role of clusters 1 and 2 in DF habituation. Do the authors think they play a role in the behaviour measured in this manuscript? Could they clarify what they mean?

      We see how our original statement in line 429 about the presence of cluster 1 and 2 neurons in the TL implied a role in dark flash habituation. This was not our intent, and we have removed “which also contains high concentrations of on-responding neurons”.

      Our thoughts on these neurons are now stated in the discussion as:

      “We also observed classes exhibiting an On-response profile ( and ). These neurons fire at the ramping increase in luminance after the DF, making it unlikely that they play a role in aspects of acute DF behaviour we measured here. These neurons exist in both non-adapting and depressing forms suggesting a yet unidentified role in behavioural adaptation to repeated DFs.“

      Minor comments

      Line 73 (and elsewhere): Why use adaptation instead of habituation (also in the adaptation profile)? Do you suspect your observations do not reflect habituation, but a sensory adaptation mechanism?

      We have used the convention that “habituation” refers to observations at the behavioural level, while “depression” and “potentiation” refer to observations at the neuronal level. We use the term “adaptation” to refer to neuronal adaptations of either sign (depression or potentiation), as in line 73.

      We believe that our observations reflect neuronal adaptations that underlie habituation behaviour.

      Line 71: It is debatable that the strongest learning happens in the first block, the difference between the first and last response seems to grow larger with each successive block. What do the authors mean by 'strongest'

      We agree that “strongest” was ambiguous. We have changed this to “initial”:

      “We focused on a single training block of 60 DFs to identify neuronal adaptations that occur during the initial phase of learning ”

      Fig.1F: there is no rastermap call in the GitHub repository, was the embedding done in the GUI? If so, it should also be shared for reproducibility's sake.

      Yes, Fig.1F was created using the suite2p GUI, as we have now clarified in the methods:

      “The clustered heatmap image of neural activity (([fig:3]F) was generated using the suite2p GUI using the “Visualize selected cells” function, and sorting the neurons using the rastermap algorithm ”

      The image is available in the “Figure1 - Ca2Imaging.svg” file available here: https://github.com/owenrandlett/lamire_2022/tree/main/LamireEtAl_2022

      Line 101: while true that AffinityPropagation does not require input on the number of clusters, preference can influence the number of clusters. It seems that at least two values were tested in the search for the clusters, can the authors comment on how many clusters the other preference value converged (or failed to converge) on?

      Indeed, as with any clustering approach, the resultant clusters are highly dependent on the input parameters, in this case the “preference”, as well as “damping” and the choice of affinity metric. By varying these parameters one can arrive at anywhere between 2 and hundreds of clusters.

      It is for this reason that we feel that the anatomical analyses of these clusters is very important, making the assumption that neurons of differing functional types will have different localizations in the brain, as we explained in the Results:

      “While these results indicate the presence of a dozen functionally distinct neuron types, such clustering analyses will force categories upon the data irrespective of if such categories actually exist. To determine if our cluster analyses identified genuine neuron types, we analyzed their anatomical localization ([fig:2]C-E). Since our clustering was based purely on functional responses, we reasoned that anatomical segregation of these clusters would be consistent with the presence of truly distinct types of neurons.”

      We also acknowledge in the Results that the clustering approach has limitations:

      “These results highlight a diversity of functional neuronal classes active during DF habituation. Whether there are indeed 12 classes of neurons, or if this is an over- or under-estimate, awaits a full molecular characterization. Independent of the precise number of neuronal classes, we proceed under the hypothesis that these clusters define neurons that play distinct roles in the DF response and/or its modulation during habituation learning“

      Fig.2. My understanding is that the cluster numbers are arbitrary unless there is a meaning to them, which then should be explained. I would recommend grouping the clusters per functional category as in Fig.6 to make it easier for the reader.

      Cluster number reflects the ordering in the hierarchical clustering tree shown in Figure 2B. We feel that this is the most logical representation of their functional similarity. We have clarified this in the Methods:

      “ We then used the Affinity Propagation clustering from scikit-learn , with “affinity” computed as the Pearson product-moment correlation coefficients (corrcoef in NumPy ), preference=-9, and damping=0.9, and clustered using Hierarchical clustering (cluster.hierarchy in SciPy ). Cluster number was assigned based on the ordering of the hierarchical clustering tree. ”

      Fig.3 SSMD fingerprint, it would be much easier for the readers if the list of parameters was clearer and rotated 90 degrees. Maybe in a supplementary figure to show what each represents.

      We agree that the SSMD fingerprint is very difficult to interpret. As discussed above, we have now included a supplementary table (Figure3_sourcedata2_SSMDFingerprintParameters.xlsx) where we have clarified what each parameter represents.

      Fig.4: The use of the same colours across the clustering methods is confusing, especially after the use of colours for the SSMD fingerprint in Fig.3. and at the bottom of 4A. Fig.4A for example could have been colour coded according to the most affected behaviour in the fingerprint at the bottom.

      Fig.4B the coloured text is difficult to read, especially for the lighter colours.

      We agree that our use of color is not perfect, but we have attempted to use them consistently: for example when referring to a functional cluster, or a drug manipulation. We don’t think that there is a sufficient number of distinguishable colors for us to never use the same color twice.

      Fig.4C if the goal is to show similarity, the relevant drugs could be placed adjacent to each other. One could also report the Euclidean distance, or compute how correlated the different fingerprints are within one pharmacological target space.

      The goal of Fig 4C is to highlight where Bicuculline, Amoxapine, Picrotoxinin, Melatonin, Ethinyl Estradiol and Hexestrol lie within the clustered heatmap of the behavioural fingerprints (Fig 4A), and<br /> demonstrate how the probability of response to dark flashes is modulated by these drugs. In our analyses, “similarity” is a function of the clustering distance.

      Fig.6D 'Same data as M, ...' I assume should be 'Same data as C,...'

      Indeed, thank you for pointing out this error that we have corrected.

      Fig. 7 How many GCaMP6s double transgenic larvae were imaged?

      6 fish were imaged, as is stated in the legend to Fig 7G

      Line 407: all is repeated.

      We apologize, but we do not see what is repeated at line 407. Can you please clarify?

      Line 481: Would testing spontaneous activity after training for 7h be unbiased, could there be fatigue effects?

      We tested for fatigue effects in our previous study, comparing larvae that received the training for 7hrs and those that did not, and we saw no deficits in spontaneous activity, tap response, or OMR performance (Figure S1, Randlett et al., Current Biology, 2019).

      Line 610: There are some inconsistencies between the authors' contributions in the manuscript and the one provided to eLife.

      Thank you, we will double check this in the resubmission forms. The authors' contributions in the manuscript are correct.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I would rather recommend the authors divide this manuscript into two and publish two papers by adding some more strengthening data for each part such as cellular manipulations, e.g. ablation to prove the critical involvement of 12(Pot, M) neurons in habituation.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion, but have opted not to split the paper into two. We feel that the collective message of this paper and approach combining molecular and functional analysis will be of interest, and we believe the incongruencies in our results reflects the complexity inherent within the system.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors investigated how partial loss of SynGap1 affects inhibitory neurons derived from the MGE in the auditory cortex, focusing on their synaptic inputs and excitability. While haplo-insufficiently of SynGap1 is known to lead to intellectual disabilities, the underlying mechanisms remain unclear.

      Strengths:

      The questions are novel

      Weaknesses:

      Despite the interesting and novel questions, there are significant issues regarding the experimental design and potential misinterpretations of key findings. Consequently, the manuscript contributes little to our understanding of SynGap1 loss mechanisms.

      Major issues in the second version of the manuscript:

      In the review of the first version there were major issues and contradictions with the sEPSC and mEPSC data, and were not resolved after the revision, and the new control experiments rather confirmed the contradiction.

      In the original review I stated: "One major concern is the inconsistency and confusion in the intermediate conclusions drawn from the results. For instance, while the sEPSC data indicates decreased amplitude in PV+ and SOM+ cells in cHet animals, the frequency of events remains unchanged. In contrast, the mEPSC data shows no change in amplitudes in PV+ cells, but a significant decrease in event frequency. The authors conclude that the former observation implies decreased excitability. However, traditionally, such observations on mEPSC parameters are considered indicative of presynaptic mechanisms rather than changes of network activity.‎ The subsequent synapse counting experiments align more closely with the traditional conclusions. This issue can be resolved by rephrasing the text. However, it would remain unexplained why the sEPSC frequency shows no significant difference. If the majority of sEPSC events were indeed mediated by spiking (which is blocked by TTX), the average amplitudes and frequency of mEPSCs should be substantially lower than those of sEPSCs. Yet, they fall within a very similar range, suggesting that most sEPSCs may actually be independent of action potentials. But if that was indeed the case, the changes of purported sEPSC and mEPSC results should have been similar."<br /> Contradictions remained after the revision of the manuscript. On one hand, the authors claimed in the revised version that "We found no difference in mEPSC amplitude between the two genotypes (Fig. 1g), indicating that the observed difference in sEPSC amplitude (Figure 1b) could arise from decreased network excitability". On the other hand, later they show "no significative difference in either amplitude or inter-event intervals between sEPSC and mEPSC, suggesting that in acute slices from adult A1, most sEPSCs may actually be AP independent." The latter means that sEPSCs and mEPSCs are the same type of events, which should have the same sensitivity to manipulations.

      We understand that the data are confusing. Our results suggest a diverse population of PV+ cells, with varying reliance on action potential-dependent and -independent release. Several PV+ cells indeed show TTX sensitivity (reduced EPSC event amplitudes following TTX application: See Fig.1c-f, at the end of this document), but their individual responses are diluted when all cells are pooled together. To account for this variability, we are currently recording sEPSC followed by mEPSC from more mice of both genotypes. We will rephrase the text to reflect the updated data accordingly, keeping with the editors and reviewers’ suggestions.

      Concerns about the quality of the synapse counting experiments were addressed by showing additional images in a different and explaining quantification. However, the admitted restriction of the analysis of excitatory synapses to the somatic region represent a limitation, as they include only a small fraction of the total excitation - even if, the slightly larger amplitudes of their EPSPs are considered.

      We agree with the reviewer that restricting the anatomical analysis of excitatory synapses to PV cell somatic region is a limitation, which is what we have already highlighted in the discussion of the revised manuscript. Recent studies, based on serial block-face scanning electron microscopy, suggest that cortical PV+ interneurons receive more robust excitatory inputs to their perisomatic region as compared to pyramidal neurons (see for example, Hwang et al. 2021, Cerebral Cortex, http://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhaa378). It is thus possible that putative glutamatergic synapses, analysed by vGlut1/PSD95 colocalisation around PV+ cell somata, may be representative of a substantially major excitatory input population. Similar immunolabeling and quantification approach coupled with mEPSC analysis have been reported in several publications by other labs (for example Bernard et al 2022, Science 378, doi: 10.1126/science.abm7466; Exposito-Alonso et al, 2020 eLife, doi: 10.7554/eLife.57000). Since analysing putative excitatory synapses onto PV+ dendrites would be difficult and require a much longer time, we will re-phrase the text to more clearly highlight the rationale and limitation of this approach.

      New experiments using paired-pulse stimulation provided an answer to issues 3 and 4. Note that the numbering of the Figures in the responses and manuscript are not consistent.

      We are glad that the reviewer found that the new paired-pulse experiments answered previously raised concerns. We will correct the discrepancy in figure numbers in the manuscript.

      I agree that low sampling rate of the APs does not change the observed large differences in AP threshold, however, the phase plots are still inconsistent in a sense that there appears to be an offset, as all values are shifted to more depolarized membrane potentials, including threshold, AP peak, AHP peak. This consistent shift may be due to a non-biological differences in the two sets of recordings, and, importantly, it may negate the interpretation of the I/f curves results (Fig. 5e).

      We agree with the reviewers that higher sampling rate would allow to more accurately assess different parameters, such as AP height, half-width, rise time, etc., while it would not affect the large differences in AP threshold we observed between control and mutant mice. Since the phase plots to not add to our result analysis, we will remove them. The offset shown in Fig.5 was due to the unfortunate choice of two random neurons; this offset is not present in the different examples shown in Fig.7. We apologize for the confusion.

      Additional issues:

      The first paragraph of the Results mentioned that the recorded cells were identified by immunolabelling and axonal localization. However, neither the Results nor the Methods mention the criteria and levels of measurements of axonal arborization.

      As suggested, we will add this information in the revised manuscript.

      The other issues of the first review were adequately addressed by the Authors and the manuscript improved by these changes.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This paper compares the synaptic and membrane properties of two main subtypes of interneurons (PV+, SST+) in the auditory cortex of control mice vs mutants with Syngap1 haploinsufficiency. The authors find differences between control and mutants in both interneuron populations, although they claim a predominance in PV+ cells. These results suggest that altered PV-interneuron functions in the auditory cortex may contribute to the network dysfunctions observed in Syngap1 haploinsufficiency-related intellectual disability.

      The subject of the work is interesting, and most of the approach is rather direct and straightforward, which are strengths. There are also some methodological weaknesses and interpretative issues that reduce the impact of the paper.

      (1) Supplementary Figure 3: recording and data analysis. The data of Supplementary Figure 3 show no differences either in the frequency or amplitude of synaptic events recorded from the same cell in control (sEPSCs) vs TTX (mEPSCs). This suggests that, under the experimental conditions of the paper, sEPSCs are AP-independent quantal events. However, I am concerned by the high variability of the individual results included in the Figure. Indeed, several datapoints show dramatically different frequencies in control vs TTX, which may be explained by unstable recording conditions. It would be important to present these data as time course plots, so that stability can be evaluated. Also, the claim of lack of effect of TTX should be corroborated by positive control experiments verifying that TTX is working (block of action potentials, for example). Lastly, it is not clear whether the application of TTX was consistent in time and duration in all the experiments and the paper does not clarify what time window was used for quantification.

      We understand the reviewer’s concern about high variability. To account for this variability, we are currently recording sEPSC followed by mEPSC from more mice of both genotypes.

      Indeed, we confirmed that TTX was working several times through the time course of this study, in different aliquots prepared from the same TTX vial used for all experiments. The results of the last test we performed, showing that TTX application blocks action potentials (2 recordings, one from a SST+ and one from a PV+ interneuron), are shown in Fig.1a,b at the end of this document. TTX was applied using the same protocol for all recorded neurons. In particular, sEPSCs were first sampled over a 2 min period. TTX (1μM; Alomone Labs) was then perfused into the recording chamber at a flow rate of 2 mL/min. We then waited for 5 min before sampling mEPSCs over a 2 min period. We will add this information in the revised manuscript methods. Finally, Fig.1g-j shows series resistance (Rs) over time for 4 different PV+ interneurons, indicating recording stability. These results are representative of the entire population of recorded neurons, which we have meticulously analysed one by one.

      (2) Figure 1 and Supplementary Figure 3: apparent inconsistency. If, as the authors claim, TTX does not affect sEPSCs (either in the control or mutant genotype, Supplementary Figure 3 and point 1 above), then comparing sEPSC and mEPSC in control vs mutants should yield identical results. In contrast, Figure 1 reports a _selective_ reduction of sEPSCs amplitude (not in mEPSCs) in mutants, which is difficult to understand. The proposed explanation relying on different pools of synaptic vesicles mediating sEPSCs and mEPSCs does not clarify things. If this was the case, wouldn't it also imply a decrease of event frequency following TTX addition? However, this is not observed in Supplementary Figure 3. My understanding is that, according to this explanation, recordings in control solution would reflect the impact of two separate pools of vesicles, whereas, in the presence of TTX, only one pool would be available for release. Therefore, TTX should cause a decrease in the frequency of the recorded events, which is not what is observed in Supplementary Figure 3.

      Our results suggest a diverse population of PV+ cells, with varying reliance on action potential-dependent and -independent release. Several PV+ cells indeed show TTX sensitivity (reduced EPSC event amplitudes following TTX application: See Fig.1c-f, at the end of this document), but their individual responses are diluted when all cells are pooled together. As mentioned above, we are currently recording sEPSCs followed by mEPSCs from more mice of both genotypes, to account for the large variability. We will rephrase the text in the revised manuscript according to the updated data and reviewers’ suggestions.

      (3) Figure 1: statistical analysis. Although I do appreciate the efforts of the authors to illustrate both cumulative distributions and plunger plots with individual data, I am confused by how the cumulative distributions of Figure 1b (sEPSC amplitude) may support statistically significant differences between genotypes, but this is not the case for the cumulative distributions of Figure 1g (inter mEPSC interval), where the curves appear even more separated. A difference in mEPSC frequency would also be consistent with the data of Supplementary Fig 2b, which otherwise are difficult to reconciliate. I would encourage the authors to use the Kolmogorov-Smirnov rather than a t-test for the comparison of cumulative distributions.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We used both cumulative distribution and plunger plots with individual data because they convey 2 different kinds of information. Cumulative distributions highlight where the differences lie (the deltas between the groups), while plunger plots with individual data show the variability between data points. In histogram 1g, the variability is greater than in 1b (due to the smaller sample size in 1g), which leads to larger error bars and directly impacts the statistical outcome. So, while the delta is larger in 1g, the variability is also greater. In contrast, the delta in 1b is smaller, as is the variability, which in turn affects the statistical outcome. To address this issue, we are currently increasing N of recordings.

      We will include Kolmogorov-Smirnov analysis in the revision, as suggested; nevertheless, we will base our conclusions on statistical results generated by the linear mixed model (LMM), modelling animal as a random effect and genotype as the fixed effect. We used this statistical analysis since we considered the number of mice as independent replicates and the number of cells in each mouse as repeated/correlated measures. The reason we decided to use LMM for our statistical analyses is based on the growing concern over reproducibility in biomedical research and the ongoing discussion on how data are analysed (see for example, Yu et al (2022), Neuron 110:21-35 https://doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2021.10.030; Aarts et al. (2014). Nat Neurosci 17, 491–496. https://doi.org/10.1038/nn.3648). We acknowledge that patch-clamp data has been historically analysed using t-test and analysis of variance (ANOVA), or equivalent non-parametric tests. However, these tests assume that individual observations (recorded neurons in this case) are independent of each other. Whether neurons from the same mouse are independent or correlated variables is an unresolved question, but does not appear to be likely from a biological point of view. Statisticians have developed effective methods to analyze correlated data, including LMM. In parallel, we also tested the data by using the standard parametric and non-parametric analyses and reported these results as well (Tables 1-9, and S1-S2).

      (4) Methods. I still maintain that a threshold at around -20/-15 mV for the first action potential of a train seems too depolarized (see some datapoints of Fig 5c and Fig7c) for a healthy spike. This suggest that some cells were either in precarious conditions or that the capacitance of the electrode was not compensated properly.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we will exclude the neurons with threshold at -20/-15 mV. In addition, we performed statistical analysis with and without these cells (data reported below) and found that whether these cells are included or excluded, the statistical significance of the results does not change.

      Fig.5c: including the 2 outliers from cHet group with values of -16.5 and 20.6 mV: -42.6±1.01 mV in control, n=33 cells from 15 mice vs -35.3±1.2 mV in cHet, n=40 cells from 17 mice, ***p<0.001, LMM; excluding the 2 outliers from cHet group -42.6±1.01 mV in control, n=33 cells from 15 mice vs -36.2±1.1 mV in cHet, n=38 cells from 17 mice, ***p<0.001, LMM.

      Fig.7c: including the 2 outliers from cHet group with values of -16.5 and 20.6 mV: -43.4±1.6 mV in control, n=12 cells from 9 mice vs -33.9±1.8 mV in cHet, n=24 cells from 13 mice, **p=0.002, LMM; excluding the 2 outliers from cHet group -43.4±1.6 mV in control, n=12 cells from 9 mice vs -35.4±1.7 mV in cHet, n=22 cells from 13 mice, *p=0.037, LMM.

      (5) The authors claim that "cHet SST+ cells showed no significant changes in active and passive membrane properties (Figure 8d,e); however, their evoked firing properties were affected with fewer AP generated in response to the same depolarizing current injection".<br /> This sentence is intrinsically contradictory. Action potentials triggered by current injections are dependent on the integration of passive and active properties. If the curves of Figure 8f are different between genotypes, then some passive and/or active property MUST have changed. It is an unescapable conclusion. The general _blanket_ statement of the authors that there are no significant changes in active and passive properties is in direct contradiction with the current/#AP plot.

      We shall rephrase the text according to the reviewer’s suggestion to better represent the data. As discussed in the first revision, it's possible that other intrinsic factors, not assessed in this study, may have contributed to the effect shown in the current/#AP plot.

      (6) The phase plots of Figs 5c, 7c, and 7h suggest that the frequency of acquisition/filtering of current-clamp signals was not appropriate for fast waveforms such as spikes. The first two papers indicated by the authors in their rebuttal (Golomb et al., 2007; Stevens et al., 2021) did not perform a phase plot analysis (like those included in the manuscript). The last work quoted in the rebuttal (Zhang et al., 2023) did perform phase plot analysis, but data were digitized at a frequency of 20KHz (not 10KHz as incorrectly indicated by the authors) and filtered at 10 kHz (not 2-3 kHz as by the authors in the manuscript). To me, this remains a concern.

      We agree with the reviewer that higher sampling rate would allow to more accurately assess different AP parameters, such as AP height, half-width, rise time, etc. The papers were cited in context of determining AP threshold, not performing phase plot analysis. We apologize for the confusion and error. Further, as mentioned above, we will remove the phase plots since they do not add relevant information.

      (7) The general logical flow of the manuscript could be improved. For example, Fig 4 seems to indicate no morphological differences in the dendritic trees of control vs mutant PV cells, but this conclusion is then rejected by Fig 6. Maybe Fig 4 is not necessary. Regarding Fig 6, did the authors check the integrity of the entire dendritic structure of the cells analyzed (i.e. no dendrites were cut in the slice)? This is critical as the dendritic geometry may affect the firing properties of neurons (Mainen and Sejnowski, Nature, 1996).

      As suggested by the reviewer, we will remove Fig.4. All the reconstructions used for dendritic analysis contained intact cells with no evidently cut dendrites.

      Author response image 1.

      (a, b) Representative voltage responses of a SST+ cell (a) and a PV+ cell (b) in absence (left) and presence (right) of TTX in response to depolarizing current injections corresponding to threshold current and 2x threshold current. (c-f) Cumulative histograms of sEPSCs/mEPSCs amplitude (bin width 0.5 pA) and frequency (bin width 10 ms) recorded from four PV+ cells.  sEPSC were recorded for 2 minutes, then TTX (1μM; Alomone Labs) was perfused into the recording chamber. After 5 minutes, mEPSC were recorded for 2 minutes. (g, h, i, j) Time course plots of series resistance (Rs) of the four representative PV+ cells shown in c-f before (sEPSC) and during the application of TTX (mEPSC).


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The study is designed to assess the role of Syngap1 in regulating the physiology of the MGE-derived PV+ and SST+ interneurons. Syngap1 is associated with some mental health disorders, and PV+ and SST+ cells are the focus of many previous and likely future reports from studies of interneuron biology, highlighting the translational and basic neuroscience relevance of the authors' work.

      Strengths of the study are using well-established electrophysiology methods and the highly controlled conditions of ex vivo brain slice experiments combined with a novel intersectional mouse line, to assess the role of Syngap1 in regulating PV+ and SST+ cell properties. The findings revealed that in the mature auditory cortex, Syngap1 haploinsufficiency decreases both the intrinsic excitability and the excitatory synaptic drive onto PV+ neurons from Layer 4. In contrast, SST+ interneurons were mostly unaffected by Syngap1 haploinsufficiency. Pharmacologically manipulating the activity of voltagegated potassium channels of the Kv1 family suggested that these channels contributed to the decreased PV+ neuron excitability by Syngap insufficiency. These results therefore suggest that normal Syngap1 expression levels are necessary to produce normal PV+ cell intrinsic properties and excitatory synaptic drive, albeit, perhaps surprisingly, inhibitory synaptic        transmission was not affected by Syngap1 haploinsufficiency.

      Since the electrophysiology experiments were performed in the adult auditory cortex, while Syngap1 expression was potentially affected since embryonic stages in the MGE, future studies should address two important points that were not tackled in the present study. First, what is the developmental time window in which Syngap1 insufficiency disrupted PV+ neuron properties? Albeit the embryonic Syngap1 deletion most likely affected PV+ neuron maturation, the properties of Syngap-insufficient PV+ neurons do not resemble those of immature PV+ neurons. Second, whereas the observation that Syngap1 haploinsufficiency affected PV+ neurons in auditory cortex layer 4 suggests auditory processing alterations, MGE-derived PV+ neurons populate every cortical area. Therefore, without information on whether Syngap1 expression levels are cortical area-specific, the data in this study would predict that by regulating PV+ neuron electrophysiology, Syngap1 normally controls circuit function in a wide range of cortical areas, and therefore a range of sensory, motor and cognitive functions. These are relatively minor weaknesses regarding interpretation of the data in the present study that the authors could discuss.

      We agree with the reviewer on the proposed open questions, which we now discuss in the revised manuscript. We do have experimental evidence suggesting that Syngap1 mRNA is expressed by PV+ and SST+ neurons in different cortical areas, during early postnatal development and in adulthood (Jadhav et al., 2024); therefore, we agree that it will be important, in future experiments, to tackle the question of when the observed phenotypes arise.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors investigated how partial loss of SynGap1 affects inhibitory neurons derived from the MGE in the auditory cortex, focusing on their synaptic inputs and excitability. While haplo-insufficiently of SynGap1 is known to lead to intellectual disabilities, the underlying mechanisms remain unclear.

      Strengths:

      The questions are novel

      Weaknesses:

      Despite the interesting and novel questions, there are significant concerns regarding the experimental design and data quality, as well as potential misinterpretations of key findings. Consequently, the current manuscript fails to contribute substantially to our understanding of SynGap1 loss mechanisms and may even provoke unnecessary controversies.

      Major issues:

      (1) One major concern is the inconsistency and confusion in the intermediate conclusions drawn from the results. For instance, while the sEPSC data indicates decreased amplitude in PV+ and SOM+ cells in cHet animals, the frequency of events remains unchanged. In contrast, the mEPSC data shows no change in amplitudes in PV+ cells, but a significant decrease in event frequency. The authors conclude that the former observation implies decreased excitability. However, traditionally, such observations on mEPSC parameters are considered indicative of presynaptic mechanisms rather than changes of network activity. The subsequent synapse counting experiments align more closely with the traditional conclusions. This issue can be resolved by rephrasing the text. However, it would remain unexplained why the sEPSC frequency shows no significant difference. If the majority of sEPSC events were indeed mediated by spiking (which is blocked by TTX), the average amplitudes and frequency of mEPSCs should be substantially lower than those of sEPSCs. Yet, they fall within a very similar range, suggesting that most sEPSCs may actually be independent of action potentials. But if that was indeed the case, the changes of purported sEPSC and mEPSC results should have been similar.

      We understand the reviewer’s perspective; indeed, we asked ourselves the very same question regarding why the sEPSC and mEPSC frequency fall within a similar range when we analysed neuron means (bar graphs). We thus recorded sEPSCs followed by mEPSCs from several PV neurons (control and cHet) and included this data to the revised version of the manuscript (new Supplementary Figure 3). We found that the average amplitudes and frequency of mEPSCs together with their respective cumulative probability curves were not significantly different than those of sEPSCs. We rephrased the manuscript to present potential interpretations of the data.

      We hope that we have correctly interpreted the reviewer's concern. If the question is why we do not observe a significant difference in the average frequency when comparing sEPSC and mEPSC in control mice, this could be explained by the fact that increased mean amplitude of sEPSCs was primarily driven by alterations in large sEPSCs (>9-10pA, as shown in cumulative probability in Fig. 1b right), with smaller ones being relatively unaffected. Consequently, a reduction in sEPSC amplitude may not necessarily result in a significant decrease in frequency since their values likely remain above the detection threshold of 3 pA. 

      If the question is whether we should see the same parameters affected by the genetic manipulation in both sEPSC and mEPSC, then another critical consideration is the involvement of the releasable pool in mEPSCs versus sEPSCs. Current knowledge suggests that activity-dependent and -independent release may not necessarily engage the same pool of vesicles or target the same postsynaptic sites. This concept has been extensively explored (Sara et al., 2005; Sara et al., 2011; reviewed in Ramirez and Kavalali, 2011; Kavalali, 2015). Consequently, while we may have traditionally interpreted activitydependent and -independent data assuming they utilize the same pool, this is no longer accurate. The current discussion in the field revolves around understanding the mechanisms underlying such phenomena. Therefore, comparisons between sEPSCs and mEPSCs may not yield conclusive data but rather speculative interpretations. 

      (2) Another significant concern is the quality of synapse counting experiments. The authors attempted to colocalize pre- and postsynaptic markers Vglut1 and PSD95 with PV labelling. However, several issues arise. Firstly, the PV labelling seems confined to soma regions, with no visible dendrites. Given that the perisomatic region only receives a minor fraction of excitatory synapses, this labeling might not accurately represent the input coverage of PV cells. Secondly, the resolution of the images is insufficient to support clear colocalization of the synaptic markers. Thirdly, the staining patterns are peculiar, with PSD95 puncta appearing within regions clearly identified as somas by Vglut1, hinting at possible intracellular signals. Furthermore, PSD95 seems to delineate potential apical dendrites of pyramidal cells passing through the region, yet Vglut1+ partners are absent in these segments, which are expected to be the marker of these synapses here. Additionally, the cumulative density of Vglut2 and Vglut1 puncta exceeds expectations, and it's surprising that subcortical fibers labeled by Vglut2 are comparable in number to intracortical Vglut1+ axon terminals. Ideally, N(Vglut1)+N(Vglut2) should be equal or less than N(PSD95), but this is not the case here. Consequently, these results cannot be considered reliable due to these issues.

      We apologize, as it appears that the images we provided in the first submission have caused confusion. The selected images represent a single focal plane of a confocal stack, which was visually centered on the PV cell somata. We chose just one confocal plane because we thought it showed more clearly the apposition of presynaptic and postsynaptic immunolabeling around the somata. In the revised version of the manuscript, we now provide higher magnification images, which will clearly show how we identified and selected the region of interest for the quantification of colocalized synaptic markers (Supplemental Figure 2). In our confocal stacks, we can also identify PV immunolabeled dendrites and colocalized vGlut1/PSD95 or vGlut2/PSD95 puncta on them; but these do not appear in the selected images because, as explained, only one focal plane, centered on the PV cell somata, was shown. 

      We acknowledge the reviewer's point that in PV+ cells the majority of excitatory inputs are formed onto dendrites; however, we focused on the somatic excitatory inputs to PV cells, because despite their lower number, they produce much stronger depolarization in PV neurons than dendritic excitatory inputs (Hu et al., 2010; Norenberg et al., 2010). Further, quantification of perisomatic putative excitatory synapses is more reliable since by using PV immunostaining, we can visualize the soma and larger primary dendrites, but smaller, higher order dendrites are not be always detectable. Of note, PV positive somata receive more excitatory synapses than SST positive and pyramidal neuron somata as found by electron microscopy studies in the visual cortex (Hwang et al., 2021; Elabbady et al., 2024).

      Regarding the comment on the density of vGlut1 and vGlut2 puncta, the reason that the numbers appear high and similar between the two markers is because we present normalized data (cHet normalized to their control values for each set of immunolabelling) to clearly represent the differences between genotypes. We now provide a more detailed explanation of our methods in the revised manuscript.  Briefly, immunostained sections were imaged using a Leica SP8-STED confocal microscope, with an oil immersion 63x (NA 1.4) at 1024 X 1024, z-step =0.3 μm, stack size of ~15 μm. Images were acquired from the auditory cortex from at least 3 coronal sections per animal. All the confocal parameters were maintained constant throughout the acquisition of an experiment. All images shown in the figures are from a single confocal plane. To quantify the number of vGlut1/PSD95 or vGlut2/PSD95 putative synapses, images were exported as TIFF files and analyzed using Fiji (Image J) software. We first manually outlined the profile of each PV cell soma (identified by PV immunolabeling). At least 4 innervated somata were selected in each confocal stack. We then used a series of custom-made macros in Fiji as previously described (Chehrazi et al, 2023). After subtracting background (rolling value = 10) and Gaussian blur (σ value = 2) filters, the stacks were binarized and vGlut1/PSD95 or vGlut2/PSD95 puncta were independently identified around the perimeter of a targeted soma in the focal plane with the highest soma circumference. Puncta were quantified after filtering particles for size (included between 0-2μm2) and circularity (included between 01). Data quantification was done by investigators blind to the genotype, and presented as normalized data over control values for each experiment.

      (3) One observation from the minimal stimulation experiment was concluded by an unsupported statement. Namely, the change in the onset delay cannot be attributed to a deficit in the recruitment of PV+ cells, but it may suggest a change in the excitability of TC axons.

      We agree with the reviewer, please see answer to point below.

      (4) The conclusions drawn from the stimulation experiments are also disconnected from the actual data. To make conclusions about TC release, the authors should have tested release probability using established methods, such as paired-pulse changes. Instead, the only observation here is a change in the AMPA components, which remained unexplained.

      As suggested, we performed additional paired-pulse ratio experiments at different intervals. We found that, in contrast with Control mice, evoked excitatory inputs to layer IV PV+ cells showed paired-pulse facilitation in cHet mice (Figure 3g, h), suggesting that thalamocortical presynaptic sites likely have decreased release probability in mutant compared to control mice.  We rephrased the text according to the data obtained from this new experiment.

      (5) The sampling rate of CC recordings is insufficient to resolve the temporal properties of the APs. Therefore, the phase-plots cannot be interpreted (e.g. axonal and somatic AP components are not clearly separated), raising questions about how AP threshold and peak were measured. The low sampling rate also masks the real derivative of the AP signals, making them apparently faster.

      We acknowledge that a higher sampling rate would provide a more detailed and smoother phase-plot. However, in the context of action potential parameters analysis here, it is acceptable to use sampling rates ranging from 10 kHz to 20 kHz (Golomb et al., 2007; Stevens et al., 2021; Zhang et al., 2023), which are considered adequate in the context of the present study. Indeed, our study aims to evaluate "relative" differences in the electrophysiological phenotype when comparing groups following a specific genetic manipulation. A sampling rate of 10 kHz is commonly employed in similar studies, including those conducted by our collaborator and co-author S. Kourrich (e.g., Kourrich and Thomas 2009, Kourrich et al., 2013), as well as others (Russo et al., 2013; Ünal et al., 2020; Chamberland et al., 2023). Despite being acquired at a lower sampling rate than potentially preferred by the reviewer, our data clearly demonstrate significant differences between the experimental groups, especially for parameters that are negligibly or not affected by the sampling rate used here (e.g., #spikes/input, RMP, Rin, Cm, Tm, AP amplitude, AP latency, AP rheobase).

      Regarding the phase-plots, a higher sampling rate would indeed have resulted in smoother curves. However, the differences were sufficiently pronounced to discern the relative variations in action potential waveforms between the experimental groups.

      A related issue is that the Methods section lacks essential details about the recording conditions, such as bridge balance and capacitance neutralization.

      We indeed performed bridge balance and neutralized the capacitance before starting every recording. We added the information in the methods.

      (6) Interpretation issue: One of the most fundamental measures of cellular excitability, the rheobase, was differentially affected by cHet in BCshort and BCbroad. Yet, the authors concluded that the cHet-induced changes in the two subpopulations are common.

      We are uncertain if we have correctly interpreted the reviewer's comment. While we observed distinct impacts on the rheobase (Fig. 7d and 7i), there seems to be a common effect on the AP threshold (Fig. 7c and 7h), as interpreted and indicated in the final sentence of the results section for Figure 7. If our response does not address the reviewer's comment adequately, we would greatly appreciate it if the reviewer could rephrase their feedback.

      (7) Design issue:

      The Kv1 blockade experiments are disconnected from the main manuscript. There is no experiment that shows the causal relationship between changes in DTX and cHet cells. It is only an interesting observation on AP halfwidth and threshold. However, how they affect rheobase, EPSCs, and other topics of the manuscript are not addressed in DTX experiments.

      Furthermore, Kv1 currents were never measured in this work, nor was the channel density tested. Thus, the DTX effects are not necessarily related to changes in PV cells, which can potentially generate controversies.

      While we acknowledge the reviewer's point that Kv1 currents and density weren't specifically tested, an important insight provided by Fig. 5 is the prolonged action potential latency. This delay is significantly influenced by slowly inactivating subthreshold potassium currents, namely the D-type K+ current. It's worth noting that D-type current is primarily mediated by members of the Kv1 family. The literature supports a role for Kv1.1containing channels in modulating responses to near-threshold stimuli in PV cells (Wang et al., 1994; Goldberg et al., 2008; Zurita et al., 2018). However, we recognize that besides the Kv1 family, other families may also contribute to the observed changes.

      To address this concern, we revised the manuscript by referring to the more accurate term "D-type K+ current", and rephrased the discussion to clarify the limit of our approach. It is not our intention to open unnecessary controversy, but present the data we obtained. We believe this approach and rephrasing the discussion as proposed will prevent unnecessary controversy and instead foster fruitful discussions.

      (8) Writing issues:

      Abstract:

      The auditory system is not mentioned in the abstract.

      One statement in the abstract is unclear. What is meant by "targeting Kv1 family of voltagegated potassium channels was sufficient..."? "Targeting" could refer to altered subcellular targeting of the channels, simple overexpression/deletion in the target cell population, or targeted mutation of the channel, etc. Only the final part of the Results revealed that none of the above, but these channels were blocked selectively.

      We agree with the reviewer and we will rephrase the abstract accordingly.

      Introduction:

      There is a contradiction in the introduction. The second paragraph describes in detail the distinct contribution of PV and SST neurons to auditory processing. But at the end, the authors state that "relatively few reports on PV+ and SST+ cell-intrinsic and synaptic properties in adult auditory cortex". Please be more specific about the unknown properties.

      We agree with the reviewer and we will rephrase more specifically.

      (9) The introduction emphasizes the heterogeneity of PV neurons, which certainly influences the interpretation of the results of the current manuscript. However, the initial experiments did not consider this and handled all PV cell data as a pooled population.

      In the initial experiments, we handled all PV cell data together because we wanted to be rigorous and not make assumptions on the different PV cells, which in later experiments we distinguished based on the intrinsic properties alone. Nevertheless, based on this and other reviewers’ comments, we completely rewrote the introduction in the revised manuscript to increase both focus and clarity.

      (10) The interpretation of the results strongly depends on unpublished work, which potentially provide the physiological and behavioral contexts about the role of GABAergic neurons in SynGap-haploinsufficiency. The authors cite their own unpublished work, without explaining the specific findings and relation to this manuscript.

      We agree with the reviewer and provided more information and updated references in the revised version of this manuscript. Our work is now in press in Journal of Neuroscience.

      (11) The introduction of Scholl analysis experiments mentions SOM staining, however, there is no such data about this cell type in the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for noticing the error; we changed SOM with SST (SOM and SST are two commonly used acronyms for Somatostatin expressing interneurons).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This paper compares the synaptic and membrane properties of two main subtypes of interneurons (PV+, SST+) in the auditory cortex of control mice vs mutants with Syngap1 haploinsufficiency. The authors find differences at both levels, although predominantly in PV+ cells. These results suggest that altered PV-interneuron functions in the auditory cortex may contribute to the network dysfunction observed in Syngap1 haploinsufficiencyrelated intellectual disability. The subject of the work is interesting, and most of the approach is direct and quantitative, which are major strengths. There are also some weaknesses that reduce its impact for a broader field.

      (1) The choice of mice with conditional (rather than global) haploinsufficiency makes the link between the findings and Syngap1 relatively easy to interpret, which is a strength. However, it also remains unclear whether an entire network with the same mutation at a global level (affecting also excitatory neurons) would react similarly.

      We agree with the reviewer and now discuss this important caveat in the revised manuscript.

      (2) There are some (apparent?) inconsistencies between the text and the figures. Although the authors appear to have used a sophisticated statistical analysis, some datasets in the illustrations do not seem to match the statistical results. For example, neither Fig 1g nor Fig 3f (eNMDA) reach significance despite large differences. 

      We respectfully disagree, we do not think the text and figures are inconsistent. In the cited example, large apparent difference in mean values does not show significance due to the large variability in the data; further, we did not exclude any data points, because we wanted to be rigorous. In particular, for Fig.1g, statistical analysis shows a significant increase in the inter-mEPSC interval (*p=0.027, LMM) when all events are considered (cumulative probability plots), while there is no significant difference in the inter-mEPSCs interval for inter-cell mean comparison (inset, p=0.354, LMM).  Inter-cell mean comparison does not show difference with Mann-Whitney test either (p=0.101, the data are not normally distributed, hence the choice of the Mann-Whitney test). For Fig. 3f (eNMDA), the higher mean value for the cHet versus the control is driven by two data points which are particularly high, while the other data points overlap with the control values. The MannWhitney test show also no statistical difference (p=0.174).

      In the manuscript, discussion of the data is based on the results of the LMM analysis, which takes in account both the number of cells and the numbers of mice from which these cells are recorded. We chose this statistical approach because it does not rely on the assumption that cells recorded from same mouse are independent variables. In the supplemental tables, we provided the results of the statistical analysis done with both LMM and the most commonly used Mann Whitney (for not normally distributed) or t-test (for normally distributed), for each data set.

      Also, the legend to Fig 9 indicates the presence of "a significant decrease in AP half-width from cHet in absence or presence of a-DTX", but the bar graph does not seem to show that.

      We apologize for our lack of clarity. In legend 9, we reported the statistical comparisons between 1) vehicle-treated cHET vs control PV+ cells and 2) a-DTX-treated cHET vs control PV+ cells. We rephrased the legend of the figure to avoid confusion.

      (3) The authors mention that the lack of differences in synaptic current kinetics is evidence against a change in subunit composition. However, in some Figures, for example, 3a, the kinetics of the recorded currents appear dramatically different. It would be important to know and compare the values of the series resistance between control and mutant animals.

      We agree with the reviewer that there appears to be a qualitative difference in eNMDA decay between conditions, although quantified eNMDA decay itself is similar between groups. We have used a cutoff of 15 % for the series resistance (Rs), which is significantly more stringent as compared to the cutoff typically used in electrophysiology, which are for the vast majority between 20 and 30%. To answer this concern, we re-examined the Rs, we compared Rs between groups and found no difference for Rs in eAMPA (Control mice: 13.2±0.5, n=16 cells from 7 mice vs cHet mice: 13.7±0.3, n=14 cells from 7 mice; LMM, p=0.432) and eNMDA (Control mice: 12.7±0.7, n=6 cells from 3 mice vs cHet mice: 13.8±0.7 in cHet n=6 cells from 5 mice: LMM, p=0.231). Thus, the apparent qualitative difference in eNMDA decay stems from inter-cell variability rather than inter-group differences. Notably, this discrepancy between the trace (Fig. 3a) and the data (Fig. 3f, right) is largely due to inter-cell variability, particularly in eNMDA, where a higher but non-significant decay rate is driven by a couple of very high values (Fig. 3f, right). In the revised manuscript, we now show traces that better represent our findings.

      (4) A significant unexplained variability is present in several datasets. For example, the AP threshold for PV+ includes points between -50-40 mV, but also values at around -20/-15 mV, which seems too depolarized to generate healthy APs (Fig 5c, Fig7c).

      We acknowledge the variability in AP threshold data, with some APs appearing too depolarized to generate healthy spikes. However, we meticulously examined each AP that spiked at these depolarized thresholds and found that other intrinsic properties (such as Rin, Vrest, AP overshoot, etc.) all indicate that these cells are healthy. Therefore, to maintain objectivity and provide unbiased data to the community, we opted to include them in our analysis. It's worth noting that similar variability has been observed in other studies (Bengtsson Gonzales et al., 2020; Bertero et al., 2020).

      Further, we conducted a significance test on AP threshold excluding these potentially unhealthy cells and found that the significant differences persist. After removing two outliers from the cHet group with values of -16.5 and 20.6 mV, we obtain: -42.6±1.01 mV in control, n=33, 15 mice vs -36.2±1.1 mV in cHet, n=38 cells, 17 mice (LMM, ***p<0.001). Thus, whether these cells are included or excluded, our interpretations and conclusions remain unchanged.

      We would like to clarify that these data have not been corrected with the junction potential, as described in the revised version.

      (5) I am unclear as to how the authors quantified colocalization between VGluts and PSD95 at the low magnification shown in Supplementary Figure 2.

      We apologize for our lack of clarity. Although the analysis was done at high resolution, the figures were focused on showing multiple PV somata receiving excitatory inputs. We added higher magnification figures and more detailed information in the methods of the revised version. Please also see our response to reviewer #2.

      (6) The authors claim that "cHet SST+ cells showed no significant changes in active and passive membrane properties", but this claim would seem to be directly refused by the data of Fig 8f. In the absence of changes in either active or passive membrane properties shouldn't the current/#AP plot remain unchanged?

      While we acknowledge the theoretical expectation that changes in intrinsic parameters should correlate with alterations in neuronal firing, the absence of differences in the parameters analyzed in this study is not incompatible with the clear and significant decrease in firing rate observed in cHet SST+ cells. It's indeed possible that other intrinsic factors, not assessed in this study, may have contributed to this effect. However, exploring these mechanisms is beyond the scope of our current investigation. We rephrased the discussion and added this limitation of our study in the revised version.

      (7) The plots used for the determination of AP threshold (Figs 5c, 7c, and 7h) suggest that the frequency of acquisition of current-clamp signals may not have been sufficient, this value is not included in the Methods section.

      This study utilized a sampling rate of 10 kHz, which is a standard rate for action potential analysis in the present context. While we acknowledge that a higher sampling rate could have enhanced the clarity of the phase plot, our recording conditions, as detailed in our response to Rev#2/comment#5, were suitable for the objectives of this study.

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      Sara Y, Virmani T, Deák F, Liu X, Kavalali ET (2005) An isolated pool of vesicles recycles at rest and drives spontaneous neurotransmission Neuron 45:563-573 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2004.12.056

      Sara Y, Bal M, Adachi M, Monteggia LM, Kavalali ET (2011) Use-dependent AMPA receptor block reveals segregation of spontaneous and evoked glutamatergic neurotransmission Journal of Neuroscience 14:5378-5382 https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.5234-10.2011

      Stevens SR, Longley CM, Ogawa Y, Teliska LH, Arumanayagam AS, Nair S, Oses-Prieto JA, Burlingame AL, Cykowski MD, Xue M, Rasband MN (2021) Ankyrin-R regulates fast-spiking interneuron excitability through perineuronal nets and Kv3.1b K+ channels eLife 10:e66491 http://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.66491  

      Ünal CT, Ünal B, Bolton MM (2020) Low-threshold spiking interneurons perform feedback inhibition in the lateral amygdala Brain Structure and Function 225:909–923. http://doi.org/10.1007/s00429-020-02051-4

      Wang H, Kunkel DD, Schwartzkroin PA, Tempel BL (1994) Localization of Kv1.1 and Kv1.2, two K channel proteins, to synaptic terminals, somata, and dendrites in the mouse brain. The Journal of Neuroscience 14:4588-4599. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.14-08-04588.1994

      Zhang YZ, Sapantzi S, Lin A, Doelfel SR, Connors BW, Theyel BB (2023) Activitydependent ectopic action potentials in regular-spiking neurons of the neocortex. Frontiers in Cellular Neuroscience 17 https://doi.org/10.3389/fncel.2023.1267687

      Zurita H, Feyen PLC, Apicella AJ (2018) Layer 5 callosal parvalbumin-expressing neurons: a distinct functional group of GABAergic neurons. Frontiers in Cellular Neuroscience 12:53 https://doi.org/10.3389/fncel.2018.00053

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major points:

      (1) The introduction nicely summarizes multiple aspects of cortical auditory physiology and auditory stimulus processing, but the experiments in this study are performed ex vivo in acute slices. I wonder if it would be beneficial to shorten the initial parts of the introduction and consider a more focused approach highlighting, for example, to what extent Syngap1 expression levels change during development and/or vary across cortical areas. What cortical cell types express Syngap1 in addition to PV+ and SST+ cells? If multiple cell types normally express Syngap1, the introduction could clarify that the present study investigated Syngap1 insufficiency by isolating its effects in PV+ and SST+ neurons, a condition that may not reflect the situation in mental health disorders, but that would allow to better understand the global effects of Syngap1 deficiency.

      We thank the reviewer for this very helpful suggestion. We have changed the introduction as suggested.

      (2) Because mEPSCs are not affected in Syngap+/- interneurons, the authors conclude that the lower sEPSC amplitude is due to decreased network activity. However, it is likely that the absence of significant difference (Fig 1g), is due to lack of statistical power (control: 18 cells from 7 mice, cHet: 8 cells from 4 mice). By contrast, the number of experiments recording sIPSCs and mIPSCs (Fig 2) is much larger. Hence, it seems that adding mEPSC data would allow the authors to more to convincingly support their conclusions. To more directly test whether Syngap insufficiency affects excitatory inputs by reducing network activity, ideally the authors would want to record sEPSCs followed by mEPSCs from each PV+ neuron (control or cHet). Spontaneous event frequency and amplitude should be higher for sEPSCs than mEPSCs, and Syngap1 deficiency should affect only sEPSCs, since network activity is abolished following tetrodotoxin application for mEPSC recordings.

      We agreed with the reviewer’s suggestion, and recorded sEPSCs followed by mEPSCs from PV+ neurons in control and cHet mice (Figure supplement 3). In both genotypes, we found no significative difference in either amplitude or inter-event intervals between sEPSC and mEPSC, suggesting that in acute slices from adult A1, most sEPSCs may actually be action potentialindependent. While perhaps surprisingly at first glance, this result can be explained by recent published work suggesting that action potentials-dependent (sEPSC) and -independent (mEPSC) release may not necessarily engage the same pool of vesicles or target the same postsynaptic sites (Sara et al., 2005; Sara et al., 2011; reviewed in Ramirez and Kavalali, 2011; Kavalali, 2015). Consequently, while we may have traditionally interpreted activity-dependent and -independent data assuming they utilize the same pool, this is no longer accurate; and indeed, the current discussion in the field revolves around understanding the mechanisms underlying such phenomena.

      Therefore, comparisons between sEPSCs and mEPSCs may not yield conclusive data but rather speculative interpretations. We have added this caveat in the result section.

      (3) The interpretation of the data of experiments studying thalamic inputs and single synapses should be clarified and/or rewritten. First, it is not clear why the authors assume they are selectively activating thalamic fibers with electrical stimulation. Presumably the authors applied electrical stimulation to the white matter, but the methods not clearly explained? Furthermore, the authors could clarify how stimulation of a single axon was verified and how could they distinguish release failures from stimulation failures, since the latter are inherent to using minimal stimulation conditions. Interpretations of changes in potency, quantal content, failure rate, etc, depend on the ability to distinguish release failures from stimulation failures. In addition, can the authors provide information on how many synapses a thalamic axon does establish with each postsynaptic PV+ cell from control or Syngap-deficient mice? Even if stimulating a single thalamic axon would be possible, if the connections from single thalamic axons onto single PV+ or SST+ cells are multisynaptic, this would make the interpretation of minimal stimulation experiments in terms of single synapses very difficult or unfeasible. In the end, changes in EPSCs evoked by electrical stimulation may support the idea that Syngap1 insufficiency decreases action potential evoked release, that in part mediates sEPSC, but without indicating the anatomical identity of the stimulated inputs (thalamic, other subcortical or cortico-cortical?

      We agree with the reviewer, our protocol does not allow the stimulation of single synapses/axons, but rather bulk stimulation of multiple axons. We thank the reviewer for bringing up this important point.  In our experiment, we reduced the stimulus intensity until no EPSC was observed, then increased it until we reached the minimum intensity at which we could observe an EPSC. We now explain this approach more clearly in the method and changed the results section by removing any reference to “minimal” stimulation.

      Electrical stimulation of thalamic radiation could indeed activate not only monosynaptic thalamic fibers but also polysynaptic (corticothalamic and/or corticocortical) EPSC component. To identify monosynaptic thalamocortical connections, we used as criteria the onset latencies of EPSC and the variability jitter obtained from the standard deviation of onset latencies, as previously published by other studies (Richardson et al., 2009; Blundon et al., 2011; Chun et al., 2013). Onset latencies were defined as the time interval between the beginning of the stimulation artifact and the onset of the EPSC. Monosynaptic connections are characterized by short onset latencies and low jitter variability (Richardson et al., 2009; Blundon et al., 2011; Chun et al., 2013). In our experiments, the initial slopes of EPSCs evoked by white matter stimulation had short onset latencies (mean onset latency, 4.27 ± 0.11 ms, N=16 neurons in controls, and 5.07 ± 0.07 ms, N=14 neurons in cHet mice) and low onset latency variability jitter (0.24 ± 0.03 ms in controls vs 0.31 ± 0.03 ms in cHet mice), suggestive of activation of monosynaptic thalamocortical monosynaptic connections (Richardson et al., 2009; Blundon et al., 2011; Chun et al., 2013). Of note, a previous study in adult mice (Krause et al., 2014) showed that local field potentials evoked by electrical stimulation of medial geniculate nucleus or thalamic radiation were comparable. The information is included in the revised manuscript, in the methods section.

      (4) The data presentation in Fig 6 is a bit confusing and could be clarified. First, in cluster analysis (Fig 6a), the authors may want to clarify why a correlation between Fmax and half width is indicative of the presence of subgroups. Second, performing cluster analysis based on two variables alone (Fmax and half-width) might not be very informative, but perhaps the authors could better explain why they chose two variables and particularly these two variables? For reference, see the study by Helm et al. 2013 (cited by the authors) using multivariate cluster analysis. Additionally, the authors may want to clarify, for non-expert readers, whether or not finding correlations between variables (heatmap in the left panel of Fig 6b) is a necessary condition to perform PCA (Fig 6b right panel).

      We apologize for the confusion and thank the reviewer for the comment. The choice of Fmax and half width to cluster PV+ subtypes was based on past observation of atypical PV+ cells characterized by a slower AP half-width and lower maximal AP firing frequency (Nassar et al., 2015; Bengtsson Gonzales et al., 2018; Ekins et al., 2020; Helm et al., 2013). Based on these previous studies we performed hierarchical clustering of AP half-width and Fmax-initial values based on Euclidean distance. However, in our case some control PV+ cells showed no correlation between these parameters (as it appears in Fig 6a left, right, and 6b left), requiring the use of additional 11 parameters to perform Principal Component Analysis (PCA). PCA takes a large data set with many variables per observation and reduces them to a smaller set of summary indices (Murtagh and Heck 1987).  We choose in total 13 parameters that are largely unrelated, while excluding others that are highly correlated and represent similar features of membrane properties (e.g., AP rise time and AP half-width). PCA applies a multiexponential fit to the data, and each new uncorrelated variable [principal component (PC)] can describe more than one original parameter (Helm et al., 2013). We added information in the methods section as suggested.

      Minor points:

      (1) In Fig 3a, the traces illustrating the effects of syngap haplo-insufficiency on AMPA and NMDA EPSCs do not seem to be the best examples? For instance, the EPSCs in syngap-deficient neurons show quite different kinetics compared with control EPSCs, however Fig 3f suggests similar kinetics.

      We changed the traces as suggested.

      (2) In the first paragraph of results, it would be helpful to clarify that the experiments are performed in acute brain slices and state the age of animals.

      Done as suggested.

      (3) The following two sentences are partly redundant and could be synthesized or merged to shorten the text: "Recorded MGE-derived interneurons, identified by GFP expression, were filled with biocytin, followed by posthoc immunolabeling with anti-PV and anti-SST antibodies. PV+ and SST+ interneuron identity was confirmed using neurochemical marker (PV or SST) expression and anatomical properties (axonal arborisation location, presence of dendritic spines)."

      We rewrote the paragraph to avoid redundancy, as suggested.

      (4) In the following sentence, the mention of dendritic spines is not sufficiently clear, does it mean that spine density or spine morphology differ between PV and SST neurons?: "PV+ and SST+ interneuron identity was confirmed using neurochemical marker (PV or SST) expression and anatomical properties (axonal arborisation location, presence of dendritic spines)."

      We meant absence or presence of spines. PV+ cells typically do not have spines, while SST+ interneurons do. We corrected the sentence to improve clarity.

      (5) The first sentence of the discussion might be a bit of an overinterpretation of the data? Dissecting the circuit mechanisms of abnormal auditory function with Syngap insufficiency requires experiments very different from those reported in this paper. Moreover, that PV+ neurons from auditory cortex are particularly vulnerable to Syngap deficiency is possible, but this question is not addressed directly in this study because the effects on auditory cortex PV+ neurons were not thoroughly compared with those on PV+ cells from other cortical areas.

      We agreed with the reviewer and changed this sentence accordingly.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor issues:

      "glutamatergic synaptic inputs to Nkx2.1+ interneurons from adult layer IV (LIV) auditory cortex" it would be more correct if this sentence used "in adult layer IV" instead of "from".

      We made the suggested changes.

      It would be useful information to provide whether the slice quality and cellular health was affected in the cHet animals.

      We did not observe any difference between control and cHet mice in terms of slices quality, success rate of recordings and cellular health. We added this sentence in the methods.

      Were BCshort and BCbroad observed within the same slice, same animals? This information is important to exclude the possibility of experimental origin of the distint AP width.

      We have indeed found both type of BCs in the same animal, and often in the same slice.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The introduction is rather diffuse but should be more focused on Syngap1, cellular mechanisms and interneurons. For example, the authors do not even define what Syngap1 is.

      We thank the reviewer for this very helpful suggestion. We have changed the introduction as suggested.

      (2) Some of the figures appear very busy with small fonts that are difficult to read. Also, it is very hard to appreciate the individual datapoints in the blue bars. Could a lighter color please be used?

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful suggestion. We made the suggested changes.

      (3)     The strength/limit of using a conditional knockout should be discussed.

      Done as suggested, in the revised Discussion.

      (4) Statistical Methods should be described more in depth and probably some references should be added. Also, do (apparent?) inconsistencies between the text and the figures depend on the analysis used? For example, neither Fig 1g nor Fig 3f (eNMDA) reach significance despite large differences in the illustration. Maybe the authors could acknowledge this trend and discuss potential reasons for not reaching significance. Also, the legend to Fig 9 indicates the presence of "a significant decrease in AP half-width from cHet in absence or presence of a-DTX", but the bar graph does not show that.

      The interpretation of the data is based on the results of the LMM analysis, which takes in account both the number of cells and the numbers of mice from which these cells are recorded. We chose this statistical approach because it does not rely on the assumption that cells recorded from same mouse are independent variables. We further provided detailed information about statistical analysis done in the tables associated to each figure where we show both LMM and the most commonly used Mann Whitney (for not normally distributed) or t-test (for normally distributed), for each data set.  As suggested, we added reference about LMM in Methods section.

      (5) Were overall control and mutant mice of the same average postnatal age? Is there a reason for the use of very young animals? Was any measured parameter correlated with age?

      Control and mutant mice were of the same postnatal age. In particular, the age range was 75.5 ± 1.8 postnatal days for control group and 72.1 ± 1.7 postnatal days in cHet group (mean ± S.E.M.). We did not use any young mice. We have added this information in the methods.

      (6) Figure 6. First, was the dendritic arborization of all cells fully intact? Second, if Figure 7 uses the same data of Figure 5 after a reclassification of PV+ cells into the two defined subpopulations, then Figure 5 should probably be eliminated as redundant. Also, if the observed changes impact predominantly one PV+ subpopulation, maybe one could argue that the synaptic changes could be (at least partially) explained by the more limited dendritic surface of BC-short (higher proportion in mutant animals) rather than only cellular mechanisms.

      All the reconstructions used for dendritic analysis contained intact cells with no evidently cut dendrites. We added this information in the methods section.

      Regarding Figure 5 we recognize the reviewer’s point of view; however, we think both figures are informative. In particular, Figure 5 shows the full data set, avoiding assumptions on the different PV cells subtype classification, and can be more readily compared with several previously published studies.

      We apologize for our lack of clarity, which may have led to a misunderstanding. In Figure 6i our data show that BC-short from cHet mice have a larger dendritic surface and a higher number of branching points compared to BC-short from control mice. 

      (7) I am rather surprised by the AP threshold of ~-20/-15 mV observed in the datapoints of some figures. Did the authors use capacitance neutralization for their current-clamp recordings? What was the sampling rate used? Some of the phase plots (Vm vs dV/dT) suggests that it may have been too low.

      See responses to public review.

      (8) Please add the values of the series resistance of the recordings and a comparison between control and mutant animals.

      As suggested, we re-examined the series resistance values (Rs), comparing Rs between groups and found no difference for Rs in eAMPA (Control mice: 13.2±0.5,  n=16 cells from 7 mice; cHet mice: 13.7±0.3, n=14 cells from 7 mice; LMM, p=0.432) and eNMDA (Control mice: 12.7±0.7, n=6 cells from 3 mice; cHet mice: 13.8±0.7, n=6 cells from 5 mice;  LMM, p=0.231).

      (9) I am unclear as to how the authors quantified colocalization between VGluts and PSD95 at the low magnification shown in Supplementary Figure 2. Could they please show images at higher magnification?

      Quantification was done on high resolution images. Immunostained sections were imaged using a Leica SP8-STED confocal microscope, with an oil immersion 63x (NA 1.4) at 1024 X 1024, zoom=1, z-step =0.3 μm, stack size of ~15 μm. As suggested by the reviewer, we changed the figure by including images at higher magnification.

      (10) The authors claim that "cHet SST+ cells showed no significant changes in active and passive membrane properties", but this claim would seem to be directly refused by the data of Fig 8f. In the absence of changes in either active or passive membrane properties shouldn't the current/#AP plot remain unchanged?

      The reduction in intrinsic excitability observed in SST+ cells from cHet mice could be due to intrinsic factors not assessed in this study. However, exploring these mechanisms is beyond the scope of our current investigation. We rephrased the discussion and added this limitation of our study in the revised version.

      (11) Please check references as some are missing from the list.

      Thank you for noticing this issue, which is now corrected.

      References  

      Bengtsson Gonzales C, Hunt S, Munoz-Manchado AB, McBain CJ, Hjerling-Leffler J (2020) Intrinsic electrophysiological properties predict variability in morphology and connectivity among striatal Parvalbumin-expressing Pthlh-cells Scientific Reports 10:15680 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-020-72588-1

      Blundon JA, Bayazitov IT, Zakharenko SS (2011) Presynaptic gating of postsynaptically expressed plasticity at mature thalamocortical synapses The Journal of Neuroscience 31:1601225 https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3281-11.2011

      Chun S, Bayazitov IT, Blundon JA, Zakharenko SS (2013) Thalamocortical long-term potentiation becomes gated after the early critical period in the auditory cortex The journal of Neuroscience 33:7345-57 https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.4500-12.2013.

      Ekins TG, Mahadevan V, Zhang Y, D’Amour JA, Akgül G, Petros TJ, McBain CJ (2020) Emergence of non-canonical parvalbumin-containing interneurons in hippocampus of a murine model of type I lissencephaly eLife 9:e62373 https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.62373

      Helm J, Akgul G, Wollmuth LP (2013) Subgroups of parvalbumin-expressing interneurons in layers 2/3 of the visual cortex Journal of Neurophysiology 109:1600–1613 https://doi.org/10.1152/jn.00782.2012

      Kavalali E (2015) The mechanisms and functions of spontaneous neurotransmitter release Nature Reviews Neuroscience 16:5–16 https://doi.org/10.1038/nrn3875

      Krause BM, Raz A, Uhlrich DJ, Smith PH, Banks MI (2014) Spiking in auditory cortex following thalamic stimulation is dominated by cortical network activity Frontiers in Systemic Neuroscience 8:170. https://doi.org/10.3389/fnsys.2014.00170

      Murtagh F, Heck A (1987) Multivariate Data Analysis. Dordrecht, The Netherlands: Kluwer Academic.

      Nassar M, Simonnet J, Lofredi R, Cohen I, Savary E, Yanagawa Y, Miles R, Fricker D (2015) Diversity and overlap of Parvalbumin and Somatostatin expressing interneurons in mouse presubiculum Frontiers in Neural Circuits 9:20. https://doi.org/10.3389/fncir.2015.00020

      Ramirez DM, Kavalali ET (2011) Differential regulation of spontaneous and evoked neurotransmitter release at central synapses Current Opinion in Neurobiology 21:275-282 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.conb.2011.01.007

      Richardson RJ, Blundon JA, Bayazitov IT, Zakharenko SS (2009) Connectivity patterns revealed by mapping of active inputs on dendrites of thalamorecipient neurons in the auditory cortex. The Journal of Neuroscience 29:6406-17 https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3028-09.2009

      Sara Y, Virmani T, Deák F, Liu X, Kavalali ET (2005) An isolated pool of vesicles recycles at rest and drives spontaneous neurotransmission Neuron 45:563-573 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2004.12.056

      Sara Y, Bal M, Adachi M, Monteggia LM, Kavalali ET (2011) Use-dependent AMPA receptor block reveals segregation of spontaneous and evoked glutamatergic neurotransmission Journal of Neuroscience 14:5378-5382 https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.5234-10.2011

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this study, the authors examined the role of IBTK, a substrate-binding adaptor of the CRL3 ubiquitin ligase complex, in modulating the activity of the eiF4F translation initiation complex. They find that IBTK mediates the non-degradative ubiquitination of eiF4A1, promotes cap-dependent translational initiation, nascent protein synthesis, oncogene expression, and tumor cell growth. Correspondingly, phosphorylation of IBTK by mTORC1/ S6K1 increases eIF4A1 ubiquitination and sustains oncogenic translation.

      Strengths:

      This study utilizes multiple biochemical, proteomic, functional, and cell biology assays to substantiate their results. Importantly, the work nominates IBTK as a unique substrate of mTORC1, and further validates eiF4A1 (a crucial subunit of the ei44F complex) as a promising therapeutic target in cancer. Since IBTK interacts broadly with multiple members of the translational initial complex - it will be interesting to examine its role in eiF2alpha-mediated ER stress as well as eiF3-mediated translation. Additionally, since IBTK exerts pro-survival effects in multiple cell types, it will be of relevance to characterize the role of IBTK in mediating increased mTORC1 mediated translation in other tumor types, thus potentially impacting their treatment with eiF4F inhibitors.

      Limitations/Weaknesses:

      The findings are mostly well supported by data, but some areas need clarification and could potentially be enhanced with further experiments:

      (1) Since eiF4A1 appears to function downstream of IBTK1, can the effects of IBTK1 KO/KD in reducing puromycin incorporation (in Fig 3A), cap-dependent luciferase reporter activity (Fig 3G), reduced oncogene expression (Fig 4A) or 2D growth/ invasion assays (Fig 4) be overcome or bypassed by overexpressing eiF4A1? These could potentially be tested in future studies.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. As per the reviewer's suggestion, we conducted experiments where we overexpressed Myc-eIF4A1 in IBTK-KO SiHa cells. Our findings indicate that increasing levels of eIF4A1 through ectopic overexpression is unable to reverse the decrease in puromycin incorporation (Fig. S3C) and protein expression of eIF4A1 targets caused by IBTK ablation (Fig. S4E). These results clearly demonstrate that IBTK ablation-induced eIF4A1 dysfunctions cannot be rescued by simply elevating eIF4A1 protein levels. Given the above results are negative, the impacts of eIF4A1 overexpression on the 2D growth/invasion capacities of IBTK-KO cells were not further examined. We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's understanding regarding this matter.

      (2) The decrease in nascent protein synthesis in puromycin incorporation assays in Figure 3A suggest that the effects of IBTK KO are comparable to and additive with silvesterol. It would be of interest to examine whether silvesterol decreases nascent protein synthesis or increases stress granules in the IBTK KO cells stably expressing IBTK as well.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. We have showed that silvestrol treatment still decreased nascent protein synthesis in IBTK-KO cells overexpressing FLAG-IBTK as well (Fig. S3B).

      (3) The data presented in Figure 5 regarding the role of mTORC1 in IBTK- mediated eiF4A1 ubiquitination needs further clarification on several points:

      • It is not clear if the experiments in Figure 5F with Phos-tag gels are using the FLAG-IBTK deletion mutant or the peptide containing the mTOR sites as it is mentioned on line 517, page 19 "To do so, we generated an IBTK deletion mutant (900-1150 aa) spanning the potential mTORC1-regulated phosphorylation sites" This needs further clarification.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. The IBTK deletion mutant used in Fig. 5F is FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa. We have annotated it with smaller font size in the panel (red box) in Author response image 1.

      Author response image 1.

      • It may be of benefit to repeat the Phos tag experiments with full-length FLAG- IBTK and/or endogenous IBTK with molecular weight markers indicating the size of migrated bands.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. We attempted to perform Phos-tag assays to detect the overexpressed full-length FLAG-IBTK or endogenous IBTK. However, we encountered difficulties in successfully transferring the full-length FLAG-IBTK or endogenous IBTK onto the nitrocellulose membrane during Phos-tag WB analysis. This is likely due to the limitations of this technique. Based on our experience, phos-tag gel is less efficient in detecting protein motility shifts with large molecular weights. As the molecular weight of IBTK protein is approximately 160 kDa, it falls within this category. Considering these technical constraints, we did not include Phos-tag assay results for full-length IBTK in our study. We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's understanding regarding this matter.

      The binding of Phos-tag to phosphorylated proteins induces a mobility shift during gel electrophoresis or protein separation techniques. This shift allows for the visualization and quantification of phosphorylated proteins separately from non-phosphorylated proteins. It's important to note that these mobility shifts indicate phosphorylation status, rather than actual molecular weights. pre- stained protein markers are typically used as a reference to assess the efficiency of protein transfer onto the membrane [Ref: 1]. Considering the aforementioned reasons, we did not add molecular weights to the WB images.

      Reference [1]. FUJIFILM Wako Pure Chemical Corporation, https://www.wako- chemicals.de/media/pdf/c7/5e/20/FUJIFILM-Wako_Phos-tag-R.pdf

      • Additionally, torin or Lambda phosphatase treatment may be used to confirm the specificity of the band in separate experiments.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. Torin1 is a synthetic mTOR inhibitor by preventing the binding of ATP to mTOR, leading to the inactivation of both mTORC1 and mTORC2, whereas rapamycin primarily targets mTORC1 activity and may inhibit mTORC2 in certain cell types after a prolonged treatment. We have identified that the predominant mediator of IBTK phosphorylation is the mTORC1/S6K1 complex. Therefore, in this context, we think that rapamycin is sufficient to inactivate the mTORC1/S6K1 pathway. As shown in Fig. 5F, the phosphorylated IBTK900-1150aa was markedly decreased while the non-phosphorylated form was simultaneously increased in rapamycin- treated cells. As per the reviewer's suggestion, we treated FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa overexpressed cells with lambda phosphatase. As shown in Fig. 5G, lambda phosphatase treatment completely abolished the mobility shifts of phosphorylated FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa. Additionally, the lowest band displayed an abundant accumulation of the non-phosphorylated form of FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa. These findings confirm that the mobility shifts observed in WB analysis correspond to the phosphorylated forms of FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa.

      • Phos-tag gels with the IBTK CRISPR KO line would also help confirm that the non-phosphorylated band is indeed IBTK.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. As we state above, we performed Phos-tag assays to detect the mobility shifts of phosphorylated FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa. Anti-FLAG antibody, but not the anti-IBTK antibody was used for WB detection. This antibody does not exhibit cross-reactivity with endogenous IBTK.

      • It is unclear why the lower, phosphorylated bands seem to be increasing (rather than decreasing) with AA starvation/ Rapa in Fig 5H.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. We think the panel the reviewer mentioned is Fig. 5F. According to the principle of Phos-tag assays, proteins with higher phosphorylation levels have slower migration rates on SDS-PAGE, while proteins with lower phosphorylation levels have faster migration rates.

      As shown in Author response image 2, the green box indicates the most phosphorylated forms of FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa, the red box indicates the moderately phosphorylated forms of FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa, and the yellow box indicates the non-phosphorylated forms of FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa. AA starvation or Rapamycin treatment reduced the hyperphosphorylated forms of FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa (green box), while simultaneously increasing the hypophosphorylated (red box) and non- phosphorylated (yellow box) forms of FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa. Thus, we conclude that AA starvation or Rapamycin treatment leads to a marked decrease in the phosphorylation levels of FLAG-IBTK900-1150aa.

      Author response image 2.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study by Sun et al. identifies a novel role for IBTK in promoting cancer protein translation, through regulation of the translational helicase eIF4A1. Using a multifaceted approach, the authors demonstrate that IBTK interacts with and ubiquitinates eIF4A1 in a non-degradative manner, enhancing its activation downstream of mTORC1/S6K1 signaling. This represents a significant advance in elucidating the complex layers of dysregulated translational control in cancer.

      Strengths:

      A major strength of this work is the convincing biochemical evidence for a direct regulatory relationship between IBTK and eIF4A1. The authors utilize affinity purification and proximity labeling methods to comprehensively map the IBTK interactome, identifying eIF4A1 as a top hit. Importantly, they validate this interaction and the specificity for eIF4A1 over other eIF4 isoforms by co- immunoprecipitation in multiple cell lines. Building on this, they demonstrate that IBTK catalyzes non-degradative ubiquitination of eIF4A1 both in cells and in vitro through the E3 ligase activity of the CRL3-IBTK complex. Mapping IBTK phosphorylation sites and showing mTORC1/S6K1-dependent regulation provides mechanistic insight. The reduction in global translation and eIF4A1- dependent oncoproteins upon IBTK loss, along with clinical data linking IBTK to poor prognosis, support the functional importance.

      Weaknesses:

      While these data compellingly establish IBTK as a binding partner and modifier of eIF4A1, a remaining weakness is the lack of direct measurements showing IBTK regulates eIF4A1 helicase activity and translation of target mRNAs. While the effects of IBTK knockout/overexpression on bulk protein synthesis are shown, the expression of multiple eIF4A1 target oncogenes remains unchanged.

      Summary:

      Overall, this study significantly advances our understanding of how aberrant mTORC1/S6K1 signaling promotes cancer pathogenic translation via IBTK and eIF4A1. The proteomic, biochemical, and phosphorylation mapping approaches established here provide a blueprint for interrogating IBTK function. These data should galvanize future efforts to target the mTORC1/S6K1-IBTK-eIF4A1 axis as an avenue for cancer therapy, particularly in combination with eIF4A inhibitors.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Certain references should be provided for clarity. For e.g.,: Page 15, line 418 " The C-terminal glycine glycine (GG) amino acid residues are essential for Ub conjugation to targeted proteins".

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. We have taken two fundamental review papers (PMID: 22524316, 9759494) on the ubiquitin system as references in this sentence.

      (2) Please describe the properties of the ΔBTB mutant on page 15 when first describing it. What motifs does it lack and has it been described before in functional studies?

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. We added a sentence to describe the properties of the ΔBTB mutant. This mutant lacks the BTB1 and BTB2 domains (deletion of aa 554–871), which have been previously demonstrated to be essential for binding to CUL3. The original reference has been added to the revised manuscript.

      (3) In Figure 2G how do the authors explain the fact that co-expression of the Ub K-ALLR mutant, which is unable to form polyubiquitin chains, formed only a moderate reduction in IBTK-mediated eIF4A1 ubiquitination?

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. The Ub K-ALLR mutant can indeed conjugate to substrate proteins, but it cannot form chains due to its absence of lysine residues, resulting in mono-ubiquitination. Multi- mono-ubiquitination refers to the attachment of single ubiquitin molecules to multiple lysine residues on a substrate protein. It's worth noting that a poly- ubiquitinated protein and a multi-mono-ubiquitinated protein appear strikingly similar in Western blot. Our findings demonstrated that the co-expression of the Ub K-ALL-R mutant resulted in only a modest reduction in IBTK-mediated eIF4A1 ubiquitination (Fig. 2G), and that eIF4A1 was ubiquitinated at twelve lysine residues when co-expressed with IBTK (Fig. S2F). As such, we conclude that the CRL3IBTK complex primarily catalyzes multi-mono-ubiquitination on eIF4A1. .

      (4) In Figure 5, The identity of the seven sites in the IBTK 7ST A mutants should be specified.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. We have specified the seven mutation sites in the IBTK-7ST A mutant (Fig. 6A).

      (5) In Figure 5, the rationale for generating antibodies only to S990/992/993, as opposed to the other mTORC1/S6K motifs should be specified.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. Upon demonstrating that IBTK can be phosphorylated—with evidence from positive Phos-tag and in vitro phosphorylation assays—we sought to directly detect changes in the phosphorylation levels using an antibody specific to IBTK phosphorylation. However, the expense of generating seven phosphorylation- specific antibodies for each site is significant. Recognizing that S990/992/993 are three adjacent sites, we deemed it appropriate to generate a single antibody to recognize the phospho-S990/992/993 epitope. Moreover, out of the seven phosphorylation sites, S992 perfectly matches the consensus motif for S6K1 phosphorylation (RXRXXS). Utilizing this antibody allowed us to observe a substantial decrease in the phosphorylation levels of these three adjacent Ser residues in IBTK following either AA deprivation or Rapamycin treatment (Fig. 5L). We have specified these points in the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The following suggestions would strengthen the study:

      (1) Directly examine the effects of IBTK modulation (knockdown/knockout/ overexpression) on eIF4A1 helicase activity.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. We agree with the reviewer's suggestion that evaluating IBTK's influence on eIF4A1 helicase activity directly would enhance the strength of our conclusion. However, the current eIF4A1 helicase assays, as described in previous publications [Ref: 1, 2], can only be conducted using in vitro purified recombinant proteins. For instance, it is feasible to assess the varying levels of helicase activity exhibited by recombinant wild-type or mutant EIF4A1 proteins [Ref: 2]. Importantly, there is currently no reported methodology for evaluating the helicase activity of EIF4A1 in vivo, as mentioned by the reviewer in gene knockdown, knockout, or overexpression cellular contexts. Therefore, we have not performed these assays and we sincerely appreciate the reviewer's understanding in this regard. We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's understanding regarding this matter.

      Reference:

      [1] Chu J, Galicia-Vázquez G, Cencic R, Mills JR, Katigbak A, Porco JA, Pelletier J. CRISPR-mediated drug-target validation reveals selective pharmacological inhibition of the RNA helicase, eIF4A. Cell reports. 2016 Jun 14;15(11):2340-7.

      [2] Chu J, Galicia-Vázquez G, Cencic R, Mills JR, Katigbak A, Porco JA, Pelletier J. CRISPR-mediated drug-target validation reveals selective pharmacological inhibition of the RNA helicase, eIF4A. Cell reports. 2016 Jun 14;15(11):2340-7.

      (2) Justify why the expression of some but not all eIF4A1 target oncogenes is affected in IBTK-depleted/overexpressing cells. This is important if IBTK should be considered as a therapeutic target. The authors should consider which of the eIF4A1 targets are most impacted by IBTK KO. This would provide a more focused therapeutic approach in the future.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. As the reviewer has pointed out, we assessed the protein levels of ten reported eIF4A1 target genes across three cancer cell lines (Fig.4, Fig. S4A, C). We observed that IBTK depletion led to a substantial reduction in the protein levels of most eIF4A1- regulated oncogenes upon IBTK depletion, although there were some exceptions. For instance, IBTK KO in H1299 cells exerted minimal influence on the protein levels of ROCK1 (Fig. S4A). Several possible explanations might account for this observation: firstly, given that our list of eIF4A1 target genes collected from previous studies conducted using distinct cell lines, it is not unexpected for different lines to exhibit subtle differences in regulation of eIF4A1 target genes. Secondly, as a CRL3 adaptor, IBTK potentially performs other biological functions via ubiquitination of specific substrates; dysregulation of these could buffer the impact of IBTK KO on the protein expression of some eIF4A1 target genes. We added these comments to the Discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      (3) Expand mTOR manipulation experiments (inhibition, Raptor knockout, activation) and evaluate impacts on IBTK phosphorylation, eIF4A1 ubiquitination, and translation.

      The mTORC1 signaling pathway is constitutively active under normal culture conditions. In order to inhibit mTORC1 activation, we employed several approaches including AA starvation, Rapamycin treatment, or Raptor knockout. Our results have demonstrated that both AA starvation and rapamycin treatment led to a reduction in eIF4A1 ubiquitination (Fig. 5M). Moreover, we have included new findings in the revised manuscript, which highlight that Raptor knockout specifically decreases eIF4A1 ubiquitination (Fig. 5N). It is worth mentioning that the impacts of mTOR inhibition or activation on protein translation have been extensively investigated and documented in numerous studies. Therefore, in our study, we did not feel it necessary to examine these treatments further.

      (4) Although not absolutely necessary, it would be nice to see if some of these findings are true in other cancer cell types.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this crucial point. We concur with the reviewer's suggestion that including data from other cancer cell types would enhance the strength of our conclusion. While the majority of our data is derived from two cervical cancer cell lines, we have corroborated certain key findings— such as the impact of IBTK on eIF4A1 and its target gene expression—in H1299 cells (human lung cancer) (Fig. 2C, Fig. S4A, B) and in CT26 cells (murine colon adenocarcinoma) (Fig. S4C, D). Additionally, we demonstrated that IBTK promotes IFN-γ-induced PD-L1 expression and tumor immune escape in both the H1299 and CT26 cells (Fig. S6A-K).

    1. Author Response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      General response

      (1) Evaluation of mitochondrial activity in mox-YG overexpression cells

      To determine whether the observed “mitochondrial development” seen in transcriptomic, proteomic, and microscopic analyses corresponds to an actual phenotypic shift toward respiration, we measured oxygen consumption in mox-YG overexpression cells. The results showed that oxygen consumption rates were indeed elevated in these cells, suggesting a metabolic shift from fermentation toward respiration. These findings have been incorporated into the revised manuscript as new Figure 4E and Figure 4—figure supplement 9, along with the corresponding descriptions in the Results section.

      (2) Evaluation of TORC1 Pathway Inactivation in mox-YG Overexpression Cells

      While the proteomic response in mox-YG overexpression cells overlapped with known responses to TORC1 pathway inactivation, we had not obtained direct evidence that TORC1 activity was indeed reduced. To address this, we assessed TORC1 activity by testing the effect of rapamycin, a TORC1 inhibitor, and by attempting to detect the phosphorylation state of known TORC1 targets. Our results showed that mox-YG overexpressing cells exhibited reduced sensitivity to rapamycin compared to vector control cells, supporting the idea that TORC1 is already inactivated in the mox-YG overexpression condition.

      In parallel, we attempted to detect phosphorylation of TORC1 targets Sch9 and Atg13 by Western blotting. Specifically, we tested several approaches: detecting phospho-Sch9 using a phospho-specific antibody, assessing the band shift of HA-tagged Sch9, and monitoring Atg13 band shift using an anti-Atg13 antibody. While we were unable to detect Sch9 phosphorylation, likely due to technical limitations, we finally succeeded in detecting Atg13 with the help of our new co-author, Dr. Kamada. However, we observed a marked reduction in Atg13 protein levels in mox-YG overexpression cells, making it difficult to interpret the biological significance of any apparent decrease in phosphorylation. Therefore, we decided not to pursue further experiments on TORC1 phosphorylation within the current revision period.

      These findings have been summarized in new Figure 4—figure supplement 7, and the relevant description has been added to the Results section.

      (3) Phenotypes of Gpm1-CCmut

      We focused our initial analysis on the phenotypes of cells overexpressing mox-YG, the protein with the lowest Neutrality Index (NI) in our dataset, as a model of protein burden. However, it remained unclear to what extent the phenotypes observed in mox-YG overexpression cells are generalizable to protein burden as a whole. We agree with the reviewers’ suggestion that it is important to examine whether similar phenotypes are also observed in cells overexpressing Gpm1-CCmut, which was newly identified in this study as having a similarly low NI. We therefore performed validation experiments using Gpm1-CCmut overexpression cells to assess whether they exhibit the characteristic phenotypes observed in mox-YG overexpression cells. These phenotypes included: transcriptional responses, mitochondrial development, metabolic shift toward respiration, and nucleolar shrinkage.

      As a result, mitochondrial development and nucleolar shrinkage were also observed in Gpm1-CCmut overexpression cells, consistent with mox-YG. In contrast, the transcriptional response associated with amino acid starvation and the metabolic shift toward respiration were not observed. Furthermore, an abnormal rounding of cell morphology—absent in mox-YG overexpression cells—was uniquely observed in Gpm1-CCmut cells. These results suggest that the phenotypes observed under mox-YG overexpression may comprise both general effects of protein burden and effects specific to the mox-YG protein. Alternatively, it is possible that Gpm1-CCmut imposes a different kind of constraint or toxicity not shared with mox-YG. In any case, these findings highlight that the full range of phenotypes associated with protein burden cannot yet be clearly defined and underscore the need for future analyses using a variety of “non-toxic” proteins.

      Given that these results form a coherent set, we have relocated original Figure 3—which previously presented the NI values of Gpm1 and Tdh3 in the original version—to new Figure 6, which now includes all related phenotypic analyses. Correspondingly, we have added new Figures 6—figure supplement 1 through 6—figure supplement 7. The associated results have been incorporated into the Results section, and we have expanded the Discussion to address this point

      As a result of these revisions, the order of figures has changed from the original version. The correspondence between the original and revised versions is as follows:

      original→ Revised

      Figure 1 → Figure 1<br />  Figure 2 → Figure 2<br />  Figure 3 → Figure 6<br />  Figure 4 → Figure 3<br />  Figure 5 → Figure 4<br />  Figure 6 → Figure 5

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses:

      While the introduction of the neutrality index seems useful to differentiate between cytotoxicity and protein burden, the biological relevance of the effects of overexpression of the model proteins is unclear.

      Thank you for your comment. This point is in fact the core message we wished to convey in this study. We believe that every protein possesses some degree of what can be described as “cytotoxicity,” and that this should be defined by the expression limit—specifically, the threshold level at which growth inhibition occurs. This index corresponds to what we term the neutrality index. We further argue that protein cytotoxicity arises from a variety of constraints inherent to each protein. These constraints act in a stepwise manner to determine the expression limit (i.e., the neutrality) of a given protein (Figure 1A). To demonstrate the real existence of such constraints, there are two complementary approaches: an inductive one that involves large-scale, systematic investigation of naturally occurring proteins, and a deductive one that tests hypotheses using selected model proteins. Our current study follows the latter approach. In addition, we define protein burden as a phenomenon that can only be elicited by proteins that are ultimately harmless (Figure 1B). We assume that such burden results in a shared physiological state, such as depletion of cellular resources. Through continued efforts to identify a protein suitable for investigating this phenomenon, we eventually arrived at mox-YG. As the reviewer rightly pointed out, examining only mox-YG does not reveal the full picture of protein burden. In fact, in response to the reviewer’s suggestion, we investigated the physiological consequences of overexpressing a mutant glycolytic protein, Gpm1-CCmut (General Response 3). We found that the resulting phenotype was notably different from that observed in cells overexpressing mox-YG. Going forward, we believe that our study provides a foundation for further systematic exploration of “harmless proteins” and the cellular impacts of their overexpression.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses:

      The authors concluded from their RNA-seq and proteomics results that cells with excess mox-YG expression showed increased respiration and TORC1 inactivation. I think it will be more convincing if the authors can show some characterization of mitochondrial respiration/membrane potential and the TOR responses to further verify their -omic results.

      These points are addressed in General Response 1 and 2.

      In addition, the authors only investigated how overexpression of mox-YG affects cells. It would be interesting to see whether overexpressing other non-toxic proteins causes similar effects, or if there are protein-specific effects. It would be good if the authors could at least discuss this point considering the workload of doing another RNA-seq or mass-spectrum analysis might be too heavy.

      These points are addressed in General Response 3.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses:

      The data are generally convincing, however in order to back up the major claim of this work - that the observed changes are due to general protein burden and not to the specific protein or condition - a broader analysis of different conditions would be highly beneficial.

      These points are addressed in General Response 3.

      Major points:

      (1) The authors identify several proteins with high neutrality scores but only analyze the effects of mox/mox-YG overexpression in depth. Hence, it remains unclear which molecular phenotypes they observe are general effects of protein burden or more specific effects of these specific proteins. To address this point, a proteome (and/or transcriptome) of at least a Gpm1-CCmut expressing strain should be obtained and compared to the mox-YG proteome. Ideally, this analysis should be done simultaneously on all strains to achieve a good comparability of samples, e.g. using TMT multiplexing (for a proteome) or multiplexed sequencing (for a transcriptome). If feasible, the more strains that can be included in this comparison, the more powerful this analysis will be and can be prioritized over depth of sequencing/proteome coverage.

      This comment has been addressed in General Response 3. Gpm1-CCmut overexpression cells exhibited both phenotypes that were shared with, and distinct from, those observed in mox-YG overexpression cells. To define a unified set of phenotypes associated with "protein burden," we believe that extensive omics analyses targeting multiple "non-toxic" protein overexpression strains will be necessary. However, such an effort goes beyond the scope of the current study, and we would like to leave it as an important subject for future investigation.

      (2) The genetic tug-of-war system is elegant but comes at the cost of requiring specific media conditions (synthetic minimal media lacking uracil and leucine), which could be a potential confound, given that metabolic rewiring, and especially nitrogen starvation are among the observed phenotypes. I wonder if some of the changes might be specific to these conditions. The authors should corroborate their findings under different conditions. Ideally, this would be done using an orthogonal expression system that does not rely on auxotrophy (e.g. using antibiotic resistance instead) and can be used in rich, complex mediums like YPD. Minimally, using different conditions (media with excess or more limited nitrogen source, amino acids, different carbon source, etc.) would be useful to test the robustness of the findings towards changes in media composition.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s clear understanding of both the advantages and limitations of the gTOW system. As rightly pointed out, since our system relies on leucine depletion, it is essential to carefully consider the potential impact this may have on cellular metabolism. Another limitation—though it also serves as one of the strengths—of the gTOW system is its reliance on copy number variation to achieve protein overexpression. This feature limits the possibility of observing rapid responses, as immediate induction is not feasible. To address this issue, we have recently developed a strong and inducible promoter that minimizes effects on other metabolic systems (Higuchi et al., 2024), and we believe this tool will be essential in future experiments.

      In response to the reviewer’s comments, we conducted two additional sets of experiments. First, we established a new overexpression system in nutrient-rich conditions (YPD medium) that is conceptually similar to gTOW but uses aureobasidin A and the AUR1d resistance gene to promote gene amplification (new Figure 4—figure supplement 2). Using this system, we observed that non-fluorescent YG mutants led to increased expression of mox. Total protein levels appeared to rise correspondingly, suggesting that the overall synthetic capacity of cells might be higher in YPD compared to SC medium. However, the degree of overexpression achieved in this system was insufficient to strongly inhibit growth, meaning we could not replicate the stress conditions observed with the original gTOW system. Further studies will be needed to determine whether stronger induction under these nutrient-rich conditions will yield comparable responses.

      Second, we performed a control experiment to examine whether the amino acid starvation response observed in mox-YG overexpressing cells could be attributed to leucine depletion from the medium (new Figure 3—figure supplement 3). By titrating leucine concentrations in SC medium, we confirmed that lower leucine levels reduced the growth rate of vector control cells, indicating leucine limitation. However, GAP1 induction was not observed under these conditions. In contrast, mox-YG overexpression led to strong GAP1 induction under similar growth-inhibitory conditions, suggesting that the amino acid starvation response is not simply due to environmental leucine depletion, but rather a consequence of the cellular burden imposed by mox-YG overexpression.

      These findings have been incorporated into the manuscript, along with the corresponding figures (new Figure 4—figure supplement 2, Figure 3—figure supplement 3), and relevant descriptions have been added to the Results and Discussion sections.

      (3) The authors suggest that the TORC1 pathway is involved in regulating some of the changes they observed. This is likely true, but it would be great if the hypothesis could be directly tested using an established TORC1 assay.

      This comment has been addressed in General Response 2. We assessed the rapamycin sensitivity of mox-YG overexpression cells—which was found to be reduced—and attempted to detect phosphorylation of the TORC1 target Atg13, although the latter was only partially successful. These findings have been incorporated into the Results section.

      (4) The finding that the nucleolus appears to be virtually missing in mox-YG-expressing cells (Figure 6B) is surprising and interesting. The authors suggest possible mechanisms to explain this and partially rescue the phenotype by a reduction-of-function mutation in an exosome subunit. I wonder if this is specific to the mox-YG protein or a general protein burden effect, which the experiments suggested in point 1 should address. Additionally, could a mox-YG variant with a nuclear export signal be expressed that stays exclusively in the cytosol to rule out that mox-YG itself interferes with phase separation in the nucleus?

      As also described in our General Response 3, we observed nucleolar shrinkage upon Gpm1-CCmut overexpression as well (new Figure 6E and 6—figure supplement 7), suggesting that this phenomenon may represent a general feature of protein burden. The reviewer’s suggestion to test whether this effect persists when mox-YG is excluded from the nucleus is indeed intriguing. However, based on our previous work, we have shown that overexpression of NES-tagged proteins (e.g., NES-EGFP) causes severe growth inhibition due to depletion of nuclear export factors (Kintaka et al., 2020). Unfortunately, this technical limitation makes it difficult for us to carry out the proposed experiment as suggested.

      Minor points:

      (5) It would be great if the authors could directly compare the changes they observed at the transcriptome and proteome levels. This can help distinguish between changes that are transcriptionally regulated versus more downstream processes (like protein degradation, as proposed for ribosome components).

      We also considered this point to be important, and therefore compared the transcriptomic and proteomic changes associated with mox-YG overexpression. However, somewhat unexpectedly, we found little correlation between these two layers of response. As shown in new Figure 3 and 4 (original Figures 4 and 5), while genes related to oxidative phosphorylation were consistently upregulated at both the mRNA and protein levels in mox-YG overexpressing cells, ribosomal proteins showed a discordant pattern: their mRNA levels were significantly increased, whereas their protein levels were significantly decreased.

      Several factors may explain this discrepancy: (1) differences in analytical methods between transcriptomics and proteomics; (2) temporal mismatches arising from the dynamic changes in mRNA and protein expression during batch culture; and (3) the possibility that, under protein burden conditions, specific regulatory mechanisms may govern the selective translation or targeted degradation of certain proteins. However, at this point, we were unable to clearly determine which of these factors account for the observed differences.

      For this reason, we did not originally include a global transcriptome–proteome comparison in the manuscript. In response to the reviewer’s comment, however, we have now included the comparison data (new Figure 4—figure supplement 3D).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major points:

      (1) While the study provides a detailed description of physiological changes, the underlying mechanisms remain speculative. For example, the exact reasons for nitrogen source depletion or increased respiration are unclear. The transcriptomic and proteomic data should be complemented by basic growth assay tests on rapamycin or glycerol to strengthen these observations.

      This comment has been addressed in General Responses 1 and 2. We conducted oxygen consumption assays and growth assays in the presence of rapamycin, and incorporated these results into the revised version of the manuscript.

      We also performed culture experiments using glycerol as a carbon source. However, both the vector control and mox-YG overexpression cells showed extremely poor growth. Although there was a slight difference between the two, we judged that it would be difficult to draw any meaningful conclusions from these results. Therefore, we have chosen not to include them in the main text (the data are attached below for reference).

      Author response image 1.

      (2) The study mainly focuses on two proteins, mox-YG/ FP proteins and Gpm1-CCmut. Did the authors look also at a broader range of proteins with varying degrees of cytotoxicity to validate the neutrality index and generalize their findings? Such as known cytotoxic proteins.

      In our calculation of the Neutrality Index (NI), we use two parameters: the maximum growth rate (expressed as %MGR relative to the control) and the protein expression level. For the latter, we measure the abundance of the overexpressed protein as a percentage of total cellular protein, based on the assumption that the protein is expressed at a sufficiently high level to be detectable by SDS-PAGE. In our view, proteins typically regarded as “cytotoxic” cannot be overexpressed to levels detectable by SDS-PAGE without the use of more sensitive techniques such as Western blotting. This limitation in expression itself is an indication of their high cytotoxicity. Consequently, for such proteins, NI is determined solely by the MGR value, and will inherently fall below 100.

      To test whether this interpretation is valid, we re-evaluated a group of EGFP variants previously reported by us to exhibit higher cytotoxicity than EGFP (Kintaka et al., 2016), due to overloading of specific cellular transport pathways. These include EGFPs tagged with localization signals. At the time of the original study, we had not calculated their NI values. Upon re-analysis, we found that all of these localization-tagged EGFP variants indeed have NI values below 100.

      This result has been included as a new Figure 2—figure supplement 3, and the relevant descriptions have been added to the Results section.

      (3) The partial rescue of ribosomal biosynthesis defects by a mutation in the nuclear exosome is intriguing but not fully explored. The specific role of the nuclear exosome in managing protein burden remains unclear. This result could be supported by alternative experiments. For example, would tom1 deletion or proteasome inhibition (degradation of ribosomal proteins in the nucleus) partially rescue the nuclear formation?

      As described in the main text, our interest in exosome mutants was prompted by our previous SGA (Synthetic Genetic Array) analysis, in which these mutants exhibited positive genetic interactions with GFP overexpression—namely, they acted in a rescuing manner (Kintaka et al., 2020). In contrast, proteasome mutants did not show such positive interactions in the same screening. On the contrary, proteasome mutants that displayed negative genetic interactions have been identified, such as the pre7ts mutant. Furthermore, the proteasome is involved in various aspects of proteostasis beyond just orphan ribosomal proteins, making the interpretation of its effects potentially quite complex.

      Regarding the TOM1 mutant raised by the reviewer, we attempted to observe nucleolar morphology using the NSR1-mScarlet-I marker in the tom1Δ deletion strain. However, we were unsuccessful in constructing the strain. This failure may be due to the strong detrimental effects of this perturbation in the tom1Δ background. As we were unable to complete this experiment within the revision period, we would like to address this issue in future work.

      Minor comments:

      (1) It would be interesting to include long-term cellular and evolutionary responses to protein overexpression to understand how cells adapt to chronic protein burden.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We are currently conducting experiments related to these points. However, as they fall outside the scope of the present study, we would like to refrain from including the data in this manuscript.

      (2) The microscopy of Nsr1 in Figure 6G does not clearly demonstrate the restored formation of the nucleolus in the mrt4-1 mutant. Electron microscopy images would be a better demonstration.

      The restoration of nucleolar size in the mtr4-1 mutant, as shown in Figure 5—figure supplement 5 (original Figure 6_S5), is statistically significant. However, as described in the main text, the degree of rescue by the mutation is partial, and, as the reviewer notes, not clearly distinguishable by eye. It becomes apparent only when analyzing a large number of cells, allowing for detection as a statistically significant difference. Given that electron microscopy images are inherently limited in the number of cells that can be analyzed and pose challenges for statistical evaluation, we believe it would be difficult to detect such a subtle difference using this method. Therefore, we respectfully ask for your understanding that we will not include additional EM experiments in this revision.

      (3) On page 24, line 451 it says that of the 84 ribosomal proteins... latest reviews and structures described/ identified 79 ribosomal proteins in budding yeast of which the majority are incorporated into the pre-ribosomal particles in the nucleolus. We could not find this information in the provided reference. Please align with the literature.

      Thank you for the comment. In S. cerevisiae, many ribosomal protein genes are duplicated due to gene duplication events, resulting in a total of 136 ribosomal proteins (http://ribosome.med.miyazaki-u.ac.jp/rpg.cgi?mode=genetable). However, not all of them are duplicated, and among the duplicated pairs, some can be distinguished by proteomic analysis based on differences in amino acid sequences, while others cannot. As a result, we report that 84 ribosomal proteins were “detected” in our proteomic analysis. To avoid confusion, we have added the following explanation to the legend of Figure 5—figure supplement 1 (original Figure 6_S1), as follows.

      “Note that when the amino acid sequences of paralogs are identical, they cannot be distinguished by proteomic analysis, and the protein abundance of both members of the paralog pair is represented under the name of only one.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The authors mentioned that based on their proteomics results, overexpressing mox-YG appears to increase respiration. I think it is worth doing some quick verification, such as oxygen consumption experiments or mitochondrial membrane potential staining to provide some verification on that.

      This comment has been addressed in General Response 1. We measured oxygen consumption in mox-YG overexpression cells and found that it was indeed elevated, suggesting a metabolic shift from fermentation toward aerobic respiration.

      (2) Similar to point 1, the authors concluded from their proteomics data that the mox-YG overexpression induced responses that are similar to TORC1 inactivation. It might be worth testing whether there is any actual TORC1 inactivation, e.g. by detecting whether there is reduced Sch9 phosphorylation by western blot.

      This comment has been addressed in General Response 2. We assessed the rapamycin sensitivity of mox-YG overexpression cells—which was found to be reduced—and attempted to detect phosphorylation of the TORC1 target Atg13, although the latter was only partially successful. These findings have been incorporated into the Results section.

      (3) The authors showed that overexpressing excess mox-YG caused downregulated glycolysis pathways. It is worth discussing whether overexpressing glycolysis-related non-toxic proteins such as Gpm1-CCmut will also lead to similar results.

      This comment has been addressed in General Response 3. Gpm1-CCmut overexpression cells exhibited both phenotypes shared with mox-YG overexpression and distinct ones. These findings suggest that a unified set of phenotypes associated with "protein burden" has yet to be clearly defined, and further investigation will be necessary to elucidate this.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The authors identify several proteins with high neutrality scores but only analyze the effects of mox/mox-YG overexpression in depth. Hence, it remains unclear which molecular phenotypes they observe are general effects of protein burden or more specific effects of these specific proteins. To address this point, a proteome (and/or transcriptome) of at least a Gpm1-CCmut expressing strain should be obtained and compared to the mox-YG proteome. Ideally, this analysis should be done simultaneously on all strains to achieve a good comparability of samples, e.g. using TMT multiplexing (for a proteome) or multiplexed sequencing (for a transcriptome). If feasible, the more strains that can be included in this comparison, the more powerful this analysis will be and can be prioritized over depth of sequencing/proteome coverage.

      This comment has been addressed in General Response 3. Gpm1-CCmut overexpression cells exhibited both phenotypes that were shared with, and distinct from, those observed in mox-YG overexpression cells. To define a unified set of phenotypes associated with "protein burden," we believe that extensive omics analyses targeting multiple "non-toxic" protein overexpression strains will be necessary. However, such an effort goes beyond the scope of the current study, and we would like to leave it as an important subject for future investigation.

      (2) The genetic tug-of-war system is elegant but comes at the cost of requiring specific media conditions (synthetic minimal media lacking uracil and leucine), which could be a potential confound, given that metabolic rewiring, and especially nitrogen starvation are among the observed phenotypes. I wonder if some of the changes might be specific to these conditions. The authors should corroborate their findings under different conditions. Ideally, this would be done using an orthogonal expression system that does not rely on auxotrophy (e.g. using antibiotic resistance instead) and can be used in rich, complex mediums like YPD. Minimally, using different conditions (media with excess or more limited nitrogen source, amino acids, different carbon source, etc.) would be useful to test the robustness of the findings towards changes in media composition.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s clear understanding of both the advantages and limitations of the gTOW system. As rightly pointed out, since our system relies on leucine depletion, it is essential to carefully consider the potential impact this may have on cellular metabolism. Another limitation—though it also serves as one of the strengths—of the gTOW system is its reliance on copy number variation to achieve protein overexpression. This feature limits the possibility of observing rapid responses, as immediate induction is not feasible. To address this issue, we have recently developed a strong and inducible promoter that minimizes effects on other metabolic systems (Higuchi et al., 2024), and we believe this tool will be essential in future experiments.

      In response to the reviewer’s comments, we conducted two additional sets of experiments. First, we established a new overexpression system in nutrient-rich conditions (YPD medium) that is conceptually similar to gTOW but uses aureobasidin A and the AUR1d resistance gene to promote gene amplification (new Figure 4—figure supplement 2). Using this system, we observed that non-fluorescent YG mutants led to increased expression of mox. Total protein levels appeared to rise correspondingly, suggesting that the overall synthetic capacity of cells might be higher in YPD compared to SC medium. However, the degree of overexpression achieved in this system was insufficient to strongly inhibit growth, meaning we could not replicate the stress conditions observed with the original gTOW system. Further studies will be needed to determine whether stronger induction under these nutrient-rich conditions will yield comparable responses.

      Second, we performed a control experiment to examine whether the amino acid starvation response observed in mox-YG overexpressing cells could be attributed to leucine depletion from the medium (new Figure 3—figure supplement 3). By titrating leucine concentrations in SC medium, we confirmed that lower leucine levels reduced the growth rate of vector control cells, indicating leucine limitation. However, GAP1 induction was not observed under these conditions. In contrast, mox-YG overexpression led to strong GAP1 induction under similar growth-inhibitory conditions, suggesting that the amino acid starvation response is not simply due to environmental leucine depletion, but rather a consequence of the cellular burden imposed by mox-YG overexpression.

      These findings have been incorporated into the manuscript, along with the corresponding figures (new Figure 4—figure supplement 2, Figure 3—figure supplement 3), and relevant descriptions have been added to the Results and Discussion sections.

      (3) The authors suggest that the TORC1 pathway is involved in regulating some of the changes they observed. This is likely true, but it would be great if the hypothesis could be directly tested using an established TORC1 assay.

      This comment has been addressed in General Response 2. We assessed the rapamycin sensitivity of mox-YG overexpression cells—which was found to be reduced—and attempted to detect phosphorylation of the TORC1 target Atg13, although the latter was only partially successful. These findings have been incorporated into the Results section.

      (4) The finding that the nucleolus appears to be virtually missing in mox-YG-expressing cells (Figure 6B) is surprising and interesting. The authors suggest possible mechanisms to explain this and partially rescue the phenotype by a reduction-of-function mutation in an exosome subunit. I wonder if this is specific to the mox-YG protein or a general protein burden effect, which the experiments suggested in point 1 should address. Additionally, could a mox-YG variant with a nuclear export signal be expressed that stays exclusively in the cytosol to rule out that mox-YG itself interferes with phase separation in the nucleus?

      As also described in our General Response 3, we observed nucleolar shrinkage upon Gpm1-CCmut overexpression as well (new Figure 6E and 6—figure supplement 7), suggesting that this phenomenon may represent a general feature of protein burden. The reviewer’s suggestion to test whether this effect persists when mox-YG is excluded from the nucleus is indeed intriguing. However, based on our previous work, we have shown that overexpression of NES-tagged proteins (e.g., NES-EGFP) causes severe growth inhibition due to depletion of nuclear export factors (Kintaka et al., 2020). Unfortunately, this technical limitation makes it difficult for us to carry out the proposed experiment as suggested.

      (5) It would be great if the authors could directly compare the changes they observed at the transcriptome and proteome levels. This can help distinguish between changes that are transcriptionally regulated versus more downstream processes (like protein degradation, as proposed for ribosome components).

      We also considered this point to be important, and therefore compared the transcriptomic and proteomic changes associated with mox-YG overexpression. However, somewhat unexpectedly, we found little correlation between these two layers of response. As shown in new Figure 3 and 4 (original Figures 4 and 5), while genes related to oxidative phosphorylation were consistently upregulated at both the mRNA and protein levels in mox-YG overexpressing cells, ribosomal proteins showed a discordant pattern: their mRNA levels were significantly increased, whereas their protein levels were significantly decreased.

      Several factors may explain this discrepancy: (1) differences in analytical methods between transcriptomics and proteomics; (2) temporal mismatches arising from the dynamic changes in mRNA and protein expression during batch culture; and (3) the possibility that, under protein burden conditions, specific regulatory mechanisms may govern the selective translation or targeted degradation of certain proteins. However, at this point, we were unable to clearly determine which of these factors account for the observed differences.

      For this reason, we did not originally include a global transcriptome–proteome comparison in the manuscript. In response to the reviewer’s comment, however, we have now included the comparison data (new Figure 4—figure supplement 3D).

      Minor points:

      (1) The authors repeatedly state that 'mitochondrial function' is increased. This is inaccurate in two ways: first, mitochondria have multiple functions, and it should be specified which one is referred to (probably mitochondrial respiration); second, the claim is based solely on the abundance of transcripts/proteins, which may or may not reflect increased activity.

      The authors should either perform functional tests (e.g. measure oxygen consumption or extracellular acidification), or change their wording to more accurately reflect the findings.

      To more directly reflect our findings, we revised two instances of the phrase “mitochondrial function” to “mitochondrial proteins” in the manuscript. Furthermore, as described in General Response 1, we confirmed that oxygen consumption is elevated in mox-YG overexpression cells. This observation suggests that mitochondrial respiratory activity is indeed enhanced under these conditions.

      (2) Similarly, the authors state that FPs are 'not localized' (e.g. line 137). This should be specified (e.g. 'not actively sorted into cellular compartments other than the cytosol').

      As pointed out by the reviewer, we have revised the relevant sections accordingly.

      (3) In Figure 4D, some of the reporter assays don't fully recapitulate the RNAseq findings (e.g. for PHO84 and ZPS1, where mox-FS and mox-YG behave differently in the reporter assay, but not in the RNAseq data). This may stem from technical limitations given that the reporter assay relies on RFP expression which could generally be affected by protein overexpression (cf. ACT1pro in mox-FS), but it should be mentioned in the text.

      We apologize for the confusion caused by our insufficient explanation of "moxFS" in new Figure 3D (original Figure 4D). As clarified here, "moxFS" refers to a frameshift mutant in which the mRNA is transcribed but the protein is not translated due to an early frameshift mutation. This is not a functional mox protein. The behavior of this mutant is nearly identical to that of the vector control, indicating that the transcriptional response observed in this assay is not triggered by mRNA expression itself, but rather by events occurring after protein synthesis begins. Importantly, the transcriptional responses identified by RNA-seq in mox-YG overexpression cells are largely recapitulated by this reporter assay, supporting the reliability of our experimental design.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment, which helped us recognize the lack of clarity in our original description. In response, we have added an explanation of the FS mutation to the figure legend (new Figure 3D), and we have also expanded the description of the moxFS experimental results in the Results section.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      All comments made in the public section.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their assessment of our study and for suggestions for additional experiments to follow up our studies.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      ‐ Preparation of spike proteins and VLPs. Although Triton‐X114 extraction was done to remove endotoxin from the recombinant spike protein preparations, its removal efficiency depends on the levels of endotoxin in the samples. Therefore, the residual endotoxin levels in each of the test samples and batches should be measured. Even very low but varying levels of residual endotoxin would substantially impact the reported results, as they create inconsistent data that are not interpretable.

      Certainly, endotoxin contamination in instilled materials is always an issue. Established protocols for inducing acute inflammatory responses using endotoxin outline specific ranges of endotoxin levels in the instillation materials. To induce acute lung inflammation in mice at least 2 µg of endotoxin must be instilled. We have endeavored to reduce the possibility of endotoxin contamination in our recombinant proteins by using a mammalian expression system; careful aseptic culture and protein purification techniques; and a final Triton-X114 partitioning protocol. We assessed the possibility of endotoxin contamination using the Pierce™ Chromogenic Endotoxin Quant Kit, which is based on the amebocyte lysate assay. Our analysis revealed that the endotoxin level in the purified recombinant protein preparation is below 1.0 EU/ml, which closely aligns with the levels specified for recombinant proteins. An endotoxin concentration of 1.0 EU/ml is equivalent to approximately 0.1 ng/ml. Throughout all mouse nasal instillation experiments, the total volume of recombinant protein administered did not exceed 6 µl. The amount of contaminant endotoxin instilled did not exceed 1 pg (50 µl of 0.02 ng/ml of endotoxin). Consequently, we can confirm that the extent of endotoxin contamination is at trace levels. Moreover, our study reveals multiple results indicating that the level of endotoxin contamination in the recombinant protein was inadequate to independently induce neutrophil recruitment in the cremaster muscle, lymph nodes, and liver. For further insights, refer to Figure 5.

      ‐ Doses of spike and VLPs: The amount of spike protein incorporated into HIV Gag‐based VLPs should be determined and compared to that found in the native SARS‐CoV‐2 virus particles. This should provide more physiologic doses (or dose ranges/titration) of spike than the arbitrary doses (3 ug or 5 ug) used in the mouse experiments.

      To visualize the acquisition of spike protein and track cells that have acquired the spike protein, we conducted a series of tests and optimizations using different concentrations of Alexa 488 labeled spike protein, ranging from 0.5 to 5 µg. During the processing of lung tissue for microscopic imaging, it was of utmost importance to preserve the integrity of the labeled spike protein in the tissue samples. We determined that instillation of 3 µg of Alexa 488 labeled spike protein yielded the optimal signal strength across the lung sections. Notably, in many mouse models employing intra-nasal instillation protocols for SARS-CoV2 spike protein or RBD domain-only recombinant proteins, a dosage of approximately 3 µg or higher were commonly used. Regarding the titer of spike-incorporated VLPs, it is important to highlight that we did not directly compare the quantity of spike protein present in NL4.3 VLPs to that of the naïve SARS-CoV-2 virus. HIV-1 and SARS-CoV-2 viruses typically carry around 70 gp120 spikes and 30 spikes, respectively. We estimated that SARS-CoV-2 spike-incorporated NL4.3 VLPs may display twice the number of spikes compared to naïve SARS-CoV-2. Notably, our measurements of SARS-CoV-2 spike on NL4.3 VLPs demonstrated similar behavior to SARS-CoV-2 in terms of specific binding to ACE2-expressing 293T cells, indicating their functional similarity in this context.

      Author response image 1.

      Spike protein-incorporated NL4.3 VLPs test with human ACE2-transfected HEK293 cells. The wild-type spike protein-incorporated VLPs and delta envelope NL4.3 VLPs were analyzed using human ACE2-transfected HEK293 cells. The first plot shows ACE2 expression levels in HEK293 cells. The second plot displays the binding pattern of Delta Env NL4.3 VLPs on ACE2-expressing HEK293 cells. The third plot illustrates the binding pattern of wild-type spike protein-incorporated NL4.3 VLPs on ACE2expressing HEK293 cells. The histogram provides a comparison of VLP binding strength to ACE2expressing HEK293 cells.

      ‐ The PNGase F‐treated protein was not studied in Fig 1. In Fig 2, glycan‐removal by PNGaseF has little effects on cell uptake and cell recruitment in the lung. If binding to one of the Siglec lectins is a critical initial step, experiments should be designed to evaluate this aspect of the spike‐cell interaction in a greater depth.

      As the reviewer states results with the PNGase F-treated protein were not shown in Fig. 1 although we showed results in Figs. 2 & 3. See discussion below about our preparation of the PNGase F-treated protein. Perhaps because we elected to use a purified fraction that retained ACE2 binding, the protein we used likely retained some complex glycans. As the reviewer notes the PNGase F treated protein had similar overall cellular recruitment and uptake profiles compared to the untreated spike protein. The PNGase Ftreated fraction we used no longer bound Siglec-F in the flow-based assay, shown in Fig. 7. This argues that the initial uptake and cellular recruitment following intranasal instillation of the Spike protein did not depend upon the engagement of Siglec-F. While Siglec-F on the murine alveolar macrophage can likely efficiently capture the spike proteins other cellular receptors contribute and the overall impact of the spike protein on alveolar macrophages likely reflects its engagement of multiple receptors.

      • Enzymatic removal of sialic acids from spike may be one parameter to explore. The efficiency of enzymatic removal should also be verified prior to experiments. Finally, the authors need to assess whether the proteins remained functional, folded properly, and did not aggregate.

      To obtain the de-glycosylated form of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, we employed PNGase F enzymatic digestion to remove glycans. Subsequently, the spike protein was purified using a size exclusion column. During this purification process, the PNGase F-treated spike protein segregated into two distinct fractions, specifically fraction 6 to 8 and fraction 9 to 11 (see revised Figure 1- figure supplement 1).

      Author response image 2.

      Size exclusion chromatography. The peak lines represent the absorbance at 280 nm. PNGase F-treated spike proteins were loaded onto a Superdex 26/60 column, resolved at a flow rate of 1.0 ml/min, and collected in 1 ml fractions.

      The Coomassie blue staining of an SDS-PAGE gel revealed that fractions 6 to 8 likely underwent a more pronounced de-glycosylation by PNGase F compared to fractions 9 to 11. Additionally, during the size column purification, we noticed that fraction 6 to 8 exhibited a faster mobility than the untreated spike protein, implying a potentially substantial modification of the protein's conformation. To probe the functional characteristics of the de-glycosylated spike protein in fraction 6 to 8, we conducted binding tests with human ACE2. Strikingly, the spike protein in fraction 6 to 8 completely lost its binding affinity to ACE2, indicating a loss of its ACE2-binding capability. Conversely, the protein in fraction 9 to 11 showed partial de-glycosylation but still retained its original functionality to bind to ACE2 and its antibody.

      Author response image 3.

      FACS analysis of various spike protein-bound beads. Protein bound beads were detected with labeled spike antibody, recombinant human ACE2, and recombinant mouse Siglec-F.

      Based on these results, we concluded that fraction 9 to 11 would be the most suitable choice for further studies as the de-glycosylated spike protein, considering its retained functional properties relevant for ligating ACE2 and antibody motifs yet had lost Siglec-F binding. In the revised manuscript we have describe in more detail the purification of the PNGase F treated Trimer and its functional assessment.

      ‐ Increases in macrophages and alveolar macrophages by Kifunensine Tx spike in Fig 2A suggest effects that are not related to Siglec lectins. These effects are not seen with the wild type or D614 spike trimers, so the relevance of high‐ mannose spike is unclear. On the other hand, there were clear differences between Wuhan and D614 trimers seen in Fig 2A and 2B, but there was no verification to ascertain whether these differences were indeed due to strain differences and not due to batch‐to‐batch variability of the recombinant protein production. The overall glycan contents of the Wuhan and D614 spike protein samples should be measured. If Siglec interaction is the main interest in this study, the terminal sialic acid contents should be determined and compared to those in the corresponding strains in the context of native SARS‐CoV‐2 virions.

      Our initial observation that Siglec-F positive alveolar macrophages (AMs) avidly acquired spike proteins followed by a rapid leukocyte recruitment provided the rational for us to examine the impact of modifying the glycosylation pattern on the spike protein (de-glycosylated and spike variants) on their binding tropism and their cellular recruitment profiles in the lung. In this context, we examined the influence of several glycan modification on spike proteins, hypothesizing that these modifications would alter the acquisition of the spike protein by mouse AMs compared to the wild-type trimer. While we did not conduct an indepth analysis of the glycan composition and terminal sialic acid contents of the SARS-CoV-2 spike proteins we used we did verify that the different proteins behaved as expected. Most of the biochemical studies were performed in Jim Arthos’ laboratory, which has a long interest in the glycosylation of the HIV envelope protein. On SDS-PAGE the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein purified from the Kifunesine treated CHO cells exhibited a 12 kDa reduction. It bound much better to L-Sign, DC-Sign, and maltose binding lectin, and poorly to Siglec-F. In the cellular studies it bound less well to most of the cellular subsets examined including murine alveolar macrophages. In studies with human blood leukocytes, it relied on cations for binding. However, it retained its toxicity directed at mouse and human neutrophils and it elicited a similar cytokine profile when added to human macrophages. The D614G mutation increased the spike protein binding to P-Selectin, CD163, and snowdrop lectin (mannose binding) suggesting that the mutation had altered the glycan content of the protein. We used the D614G spike protein in a limited number of experiments as it behaved like the wild-type protein except for a slightly altered cellular retention pattern 18 hrs after intranasal instillation. In the revised manuscript we have included its binding to peripheral blood leukocytes. The D614G mutation conferred stronger binding to human monocytes than the original Spike protein. As discussed above, we recovered two fractions following the PNGase F treatment, one with a 40 kDa reduction on SDS-PAGE and the other a 60 kDa decrease and we chose to evaluate the fraction with a 40 kDa reduction in subsequent experiments. Consistent with a loss of N-linked glycans the PNGase F treatment reduced the binding to the lectin PHA, which recognizes complex carbohydrates, and it resulted in a sharp reduction in Siglec-F binding. The lower molecular weight fraction recovered after PNGase F treatment no longer bound ACE2. While our studies showed that alveolar macrophages likely employ Siglec-F as a capturing receptor they possess other receptors that also can capture the spike protein. The downstream consequences of engaging SiglecF and other Siglecs by the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein will require additional studies.

      While acknowledging the possibility of some batch-batch variation in recombinant protein preparation, we don’t think this was a major issue. We have noted some batch-batch variations in yield- efficiency, however the purified proteins consistently gave similar results in the various experiments.

      ‐ Fig 3: The same concern described above applies to the hCoV‐HKU1 spike protein. In Panel D, the PNGase and Kifunensine treatment did not appear to abrogate the neutrophil recruitment. Panel A did not include PNGase and Kif Tx spike proteins. Quantification of images in panel D is missing and should be done on many randomly selected areas.

      We analyzed the neutrophil count of images in panel D and the results are presented. (Figure 3-figure supplement 1C). The Kifunensine treatment reduced the neutrophil recruitment at 3 hours, while the PNGase F treated Spike protein recruited as well or slightly more neutrophils. The hCoV-HKU1 S1 domain did not differ much from the saline control.

      ‐ Fig 4: Kifunensine Tx spike caused more increase in neutrophil damage after intrascrotal injections. PNGase Tx spike was not tested. Connection between Siglec‐spike binding and neutrophil recruitment/damage is lacking.

      Exteriorized cremaster muscle imaging functions as a model system for monitoring neutrophil behavior recruited by spike proteins within the local tissue, distinct from Siglec F-positive alveolar macrophages residing in lung tissue. Hence, our primary focus was not on investigating the Siglec/Spike protein interaction. Consequently, we did not utilize PNGase F-treated spike protein in these experiments. To clarify this issue, we added a sentence in main text ‘Although this model lacks Siglec F-positive macrophages, it is worth monitoring the effect of the SARS-CoV-2 Spike protein on neutrophils recruited in the inflammatory local tissue.’

      ‐ Fig 5. Neutrophil injury was also seen after inhalation (intranasal) of spike protein in mice and in vitro with human neutrophils. Panel B shows no titrating effects of spike (from 0.1 to 2) on Netosis of murine neutrophils. Panel C: Netosis was seen with human neutrophils at 1 but not 0.1. Is this species difference important?

      Given the observation of neutrophil NETosis in the mouse imaging experiment, our objective was to characterize the direct impact of the spike protein on human and murine neutrophils. The origins of the neutrophils are different as the murine neutrophils were purified from mouse bone marrow while the human neutrophils were purified from human blood. Both purification protocols led to greater than 98% neutrophils. However, the murine neutrophils contain many more immature cells (50-60%) because the bone marrow served as their source. Furthermore, the murine neutrophils are from 6–8-week-old mice while the human neutrophils are from 30-50 year-old humans. More work would be needed to sort out whether there is any difference between human and mouse neutrophils in their propensity to undergo netosis in response to Spike protein.

      ‐ Kifunensine Tx again did not cause any reduction, indicating the lack of involvement of sialic acid. How was this related to Siglec participation directly or indirectly? There was no quantification for Panel D.

      We do not think that Siglecs play a role in the induction of neutrophil netosis as the Spike proteins lacking Siglec interactions induced similar levels of netosis. Likely other neutrophil receptors are important. As noted in the text,

      "human neutrophils express several C-type lectin receptors including CLEC5A, which has been implicated in SARS-CoV-2 triggered neutrophil NETosis." Our goal with the data in Panel D was to visualize human neutrophil NETosis on trimer-bearing A549 cells we relied on the flow cytometry assays for quantification.

      ‐ The rationale for testing cation dependence is unclear and should be described. What is the significance of "cations enhanced leukocyte binding particularly so with the high mannose protein"? Are there cationdependent receptors for spike independent of glycans and huACE‐2? If so, how is this relevant to the main topic of this paper?

      It is well known that many glycan bindings by C-type lectins are calcium-dependent, involving specific amino acid residues that coordinate with calcium ions and bind to the hydroxyl groups of sugars. As discussed in our previous draft, the C-type lectin receptor L-SIGN has been suggested as a calciumdependent receptor for SARS-CoV-2, specifically interacting with high-mannose-type N-glycans on the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein. Therefore, it was worthwhile to investigate the calcium-dependent manner of spike protein binding to various types of immune cells. We added some data to this figure. It now includes the binding profile of the D614G protein. In addition, we corrected the binding data by subtracting the fluorescent signal from the unstained control cells.

      ‐ Fig 7: human Siglec 5 and 8 were studied in comparison with mouse Siglec F. Recombinant protein data are not congruent with transfected 293 cell data. Panel A, the best binding to hSiglec 5 and 8 are the PNGase F Tx spike protein; how to interpret these data? Panel B: only the WT and D614G spike proteins binding to Siglec 5 and 8 on transfected cells. It made sense that kif Tx (high‐mannose) and PNGaseF Tx (no glycan) spike would not bind to the Siglecs, but they did not bind to ACE2 either, indicative of nonfunctional spike proteins.

      We discussed this as follows: ‘The closest human paralog of mouse Siglec-F is hSiglec-8 (reference 40). While expressed on human eosinophils and mast cells, human AMs apparently lack it. In contrast, human AMs do express Siglec-5 (reference 37). Along with its paired receptor, hSiglec-14, Siglec-5 can modulate innate immune responses (reference 41). When tested in a bead binding assay, in contrast to Siglec-F, neither hSiglec-5 or -8 bound the recombinant spike protein, yet their expression in a cellular context allowed binding. The in vitro bead binding assay we established demonstrated the specific binding of the bait molecule to target molecules. However, it does have limitations in replicating the complexities of the actual cellular environment. As discussed previously the PNGase Tx fraction we used in these experiments retained ACE2 binding, but loss binding to Siglec-F in the bead assay. In a biacore assay, not shown, the PNGase Tx fraction bound L-Sign and DC-Sign better than the untreated trimer, and it retained human ACE2 binding although it bound less well than wild type-trimer. Why the PNGase Tx fractions bound poorly to the human ACE2 transfected HEK293 cells is unclear. A higher density of recombinant ACE2 on the beads compared to that expressed on the surface of HEK293 may explain the difference. Alternatively in the bead assay we used a recombinant human ACE2-Fc fragment fusion protein purified from HEK293 cells, while in the transfection assay, we expressed human full length ACE2. The biacore, the bead binding, and the functional assays we performed all suggest that we had used intact recombinant proteins.

      ‐ Fig 8: This last set of experiment was to measure cytokine release by different types of macrophage cultures treated with spike from different cells with vs without Kifunensine Tx. The connection of these experiments to the rest is tenuous and is not explained. This is one of the examples where bits of data are presented without tying them together.

      Dysregulated cytokine production significantly contributes to the pathogenesis of severe COVID-19 infection. Since we had observed strong binding of the spike protein to human monocytes and murine alveolar macrophages, we tested whether the spike protein altered cytokine production by human monocyte-derived macrophages. Depending on the culture conditions human monocytes can be differentiated M0, M1, or M2 phenotypes. Each type of macrophage responds differently to stimulants, often leading to distinct patterns of cytokine secretion. These patterns offer valuable insights into the immune response. The cytokine profiling conducted in this study enhances our understanding of how distinct macrophage types react to the spike protein.

      ‐ Discussion section did not describe how the various experiments and data are tied together. The authors explained the interactions of spike with different cell types in each paragraph separately, leaving this reviewer really confused as to what the authors want to convey as the main message of the paper.

      We have modified discussion to address this issue.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      ‐ The authors may want to refer to "intranasal instillation" to distinguish it from inhalation of an aerosolised liquid. How was the dose of the spike protein selected? There is some dose information in different settings, but usually between 0.1‐1 µg/ml or 0.1 µg‐5 µg range for in vivo injection, but the rationale for these ranges should be discussed. Is this mimicking a real situation during infections or a condition that might be used for vaccines?

      While inhalation of aerosolized liquid closely mimics the natural route of human exposure to respiratory infectious materials, intranasal instillation with a liquid inoculum remains a widely accepted standard approach for virus or vaccine inoculation across various laboratory species. To clearly define our mouse model, we are changing the term 'inhalation' to 'instillation'. We previously answered to Reviewer #2 as following: To visualize the acquisition of spike protein and track cells that have acquired the spike protein, we conducted a series of tests and optimizations using different concentrations of Alexa Fluor 488 labeled spike protein, ranging from 0.5 to 5 µg. During the processing of lung tissue for microscopic imaging, it was of utmost importance to preserve the integrity of the labeled spike protein on the tissue samples. Through our investigations, we determined that an instillation of 3 µg of Alexa Fluor 488 labeled spike protein yielded the most optimal signal strength across the lung sections. Notably, in many mouse models employing intra-nasal instillation protocols for SARS-CoV-2 spike protein or RBD domain-only recombinant proteins, a dosage of approximately 3 µg or higher was commonly used. Hence, based on these references and our preliminary studies, we selected 3 µg as the optimal concentration of instilled spike protein per mouse.

      ‐ Controls are not evenly applied. In some cases, the control for the large and complex SARS‐CoV2 spiker trimer is PBS. This seems insufficient to control against effects of injecting such complex proteins that can undergo significant conformational changes after uptake by a cell. In some cases, human coronavirus spike proteins from different viruses are used, but not much is said about these proteins and the different glycoforms are not explored. Are these prepared in the same way and do they have similar glycoforms. For example, if the Siglecs bind sialic acid on N‐linked glycans, then why do the purified Siglecs or Siglecs expressed in cells not bind the HKU‐1 spike, which would have such sialic acids if expressed in the same way as the CoV2 spike?

      We have taken careful consideration to select an appropriate control material for these experiments. Initially, we opted to employ Saline or PBS for intranasal instillation as a vehicle control, a choice aligned with the approach taken in numerous previous studies involving lung inflammation mouse models. However, as the reviewer pointed out, we share the concern for achieving more meaningful and comparable control materials, particularly considering the size and complexity of the recombinant protein. In accordance with this perspective, we introduced glycan-modified spike proteins and the HCoV-HKU1 S1 subunit. Figure 3 illustrates our comprehensive evaluation of various spike proteins in terms of their impact on neutrophil recruitment. The diversity of sialic acid structures observed on recombinant proteins expressed within the same cell emerges from the intricate interplay of multiple factors within the cellular glycosylation machinery. This complex enzymatic process empowers cells to finely modulate glycan structures and sialic acid patterns, tailoring them to suit the diverse biological functions of distinct proteins. Despite structural similarities between the HCoV-HKU1 and SARS-CoV-2 spike proteins, their glycan modifications vary, thereby leading to distinct binding properties with various Siglec subtypes. All recombinant proteins used in this study except for the S1 subunits were generated within our laboratory. These include the wild-type spike protein, the D614G Spike protein, the Kifunensine-treated high mannose spike proteins, and the PNGase F-treated deglycosylated spike proteins. All the proteins were produced using the same protocol using CHO cells or on occasion HEK293F cells. We have indicated in the manuscript where we used HEK293F cells for the protein production otherwise they were produced in CHO cells.

      ‐ Figure 1 F‐I, there should be a control for VLP without SARS‐CoV2 spike as the VLP will contain other components that may be active in the system.

      We tested the delta Env VLP for alveolar macrophage acquisition and neutrophil recruitment. We found a similar alveolar macrophage acquisition of the VLPs, but significantly less neutrophil recruitment compared to the free Spike protein. Since the uptake pattern with the VLPs matched that of the spike protein we did not consider adding a non-spike bearing VLP as a control. The rapid VLPs clearance into the lymphatics shortly after instillation may account for the reduced neutrophil recruitment following their instillation (Figure 1 figure supplement 2B, C).

      ‐ In Figure 1H, that do they mean by autofluorescence? Is this the cyan signal?

      Is the green signal also autofluorescence as this is identified as the VLP?

      We appreciate reviewer pointing out the typo regarding autofluorescence in the figure image. To provide clarity regarding the background in all lung section images, we have included additional supplemental data. During the fixation process of lung tissue, various endogenous elements in the tissue sample contribute to autofluorescence when exposed to lasers in the confocal microscope. Specifically, collagen and elastin present in the lung vasculature, including airways and blood vessels, are dominant structures that generate autofluorescence. To address this issue, we have implemented optimizations to distinguish between real signals and the noise caused by autofluorescence. We inadvertently failed to indicate the source of the strong cyan signal. The signal is due to Evans Blue dye delineating lung airway structures, which contain collagen and elastin—known binding materials for Evans Blue dye. This explains the strong fluorescence signals observed in the airways. We conjugated the recombinant spike protein with Alexa Fluor 488, and viral-like particles (VLPs) were visualized with gag-GFP. (Figure 1 figure supplement 2A, D)

      ‐ The control for SARS‐CoV2 spike trimer is PBS, but how can the authors distinguish patterns specific to the spike trimer from any other protein delivered by intranasal instillation. Could they use another channel with a control glycoprotein to determine if there is anything unique about the pattern for spike trimer?

      Alveolar macrophages employ numerous receptors to capture glycoproteins that have mannose, Nacetylglucosamine, or glucose exposed. Galactose-terminal glycoproteins are typically not bound. We do not think that the Spike protein is unique in its propensity to target alveolar macrophages.

      ‐ What is the parameter measured in Figure S2B?

      The percentage of the different cell types that have retained the instilled Spike protein at the three-hour time point. .

      ‐ The Spike trimer with high mannose oligosaccharides may gain binding to the mannose receptor. It may be helpful to state the distribution of this receptor and comment is it could be responsible for this having the largest effect size for some cell types.

      We agree that the spike trimer with high mannose should target cells bearing the mannose receptor. We have modified the discussion to address this point and have mentioned some of the cell types likely to bind the high mannose bearing spike protein.

      ‐ A key experiment is the Evans Blue measure of lung injury in Figure 3A. A control with the HKU‐1 spike is also performed, but more details on the matching of this proteins production to the SARS‐CoV2 spike trimer and the quantification of these comparative result should be provided. To show that the SARSCoV2 spike trimer can cause tissue injury on its own seems like a very important result, but the impact is currently reduced by the inconsistent application of controls and quantification of key results. Furthermore, if these results can be repeated in the B6 and B6 K18‐hACE2 mouse model it might further increase the impact by demonstrating whether or not hACE2 contributes to this effect.

      We repeated the lung permeability assay using the S1 subunit from the original SARS-CoV-2 and the S1 subunit from HCoV-HKU1. Both proteins were made by the same company using a similar expression system and purification protocol. Consistent with our original data, the instillation of the SARS-CoV-2 S1 subunit led to an increase in lung vasculature permeability, whereas the HCoV-HKU-1 S1 subunit had a minimal impact. (Figure 3 figure supplement 1A). This experiment suggests that it the S1 subunit that leads to the increase in vascular permeability. To address the contribution of hACE2 in this phenomenon, we conducted a lung permeability assay using K18-hACE2 transgenic mice. The K18-hACE2 transgenic mice exhibited a slight increase in lung vasculature permeability upon SARS-CoV-2 trimer instillation compared to the non-transgenic mice. This suggests that the hACE2-Spike protein interaction may contribute to an increase in lung vascular permeability during SARS-CoV-2 lung infection (Figure 3 figure supplement 1B).

      ‐ For Figure 4A, could they provide quantification. The neutrophil extravasation with Trimer appears quite robust, but the authors seem to down‐play this and it's not clear without quantification.

      To address this issue, we analyzed and graphed the neutrophil numbers in each image. Injection of the trimer along with IL-1β significantly increased neutrophil infiltration. (Figure 4 figure supplement 1)

      ‐ In Figure 4B, there are no neutrophils at all in the BSA condition. Is this correct? Intravascular neutrophils were detected with PBS injection in Figure 4A.

      We demonstrated that the neutrophil behaviors occur within the infiltrated tissue rather than within the blood vessels. Even when examining the blood vessels in all other images, it is challenging to identify neutrophils adhering to the endothelium of the blood vessels. Neutrophils observed in the PBS 3-hour control group are likely acute responders to the local injection, as a smaller number of neutrophils were observed in the 6-hour image.

      ‐ In Figure 5A the observation of neutrophil response in lung slices seems to be presented an anecdotal account. The neutrophil appears to polarize, but is this a consistent observation? How many such observations were made?

      We have consistent observations across three different experiments. In addition, highly polarized and fragmented neutrophils were consistently observed in the fixed lung section images.

      ‐ The statement: "human Siglec‐5 and Siglec‐8 bound poorly despite being the structural and functional equivalents of Siglec F, respectively (37)". How can one Siglec be the structural and the other the functional equivalent of Siglec‐F? It might help to provide a little more detail as to how these should be seen.

      Mouse Siglec-F has two distinct counterparts in the human Siglec system, both in terms of structure and function. In the context of domain structure, human Siglec-5 serves as the counterpart to mouse Siglec-F. However, it's important to note that while human Siglec-8 is not a genetic ortholog of mouse Siglec-F, it is expressed on similar cellular populations and functions as a functional paralog.

      ‐ The assay using purified proteins and proteins expressed in cells don't fully agree. For example, it's very surprising that recombinant Siglec 5 and 8 bind better to the non‐glycosylated form than to the glycosylated trimer. It appears from Figure S1 that the PNGaseF treated Spike contains at least partly glycosylated monomers and it also appears that the Kifunesine effect may be partial. PNGaseF may have a hard time removing some glycans from a native protein.

      We were also surprised by the results using the PNGase F treated Spike protein in that it lost binding to Siglec-F and retained binding to human Siglec-5 and 8 in the bead assay, shown in Figure 7A. As explained above we used a purified fraction of the PNGase F treated protein that retained some functional activity as assessed in the ACE2 binding assay and in biacore assays not shown. The persistent binding of Siglec-5 and Siglec-8 suggests that removal of some of the complex glycans had revealed sites capable of binding Siglec-5 and 8. We would agree with the reviewer that the PNGase treatment we used only removed some of the glycans from the native protein. In data not shown the high mannose spike protein behaved as predicted in biacore assays, binding better to DC-SIGN and maltose binding lectin, but less well to PHA and less well to ACE2. The high mannose trimer also bound less to the HEK293 cells expressing ACE2, Siglec-5, or Siglec-8 as well as peripheral blood leukocytes.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      There is a long-standing idea that choices influence evaluation: options we choose are re-evaluated to be better than they were before the choice. There has been some debate about this finding, and the authors developed several novel methods for detecting these re-evaluations in task designs where options are repeatedly presented against several alternatives. Using these novel methods the authors clearly demonstrate this re-evaluation phenomenon in several existing datasets.

      Strengths:

      The paper is well-written and the figures are clear. The authors provided evidence for the behaviour effect using several techniques and generated surrogate data (where the ground truth is known) to demonstrate the robustness of their methods.

      Weaknesses:

      The description of the results of the fMRI analysis in the text is not complete: weakening the claim that their re-evaluation algorithm better reveals neural valuation processes.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding the incomplete account of the fMRI results. In response, we implemented Reviewer #2's suggestion to run additional GLM models for a clearer interpretation of our findings. We also took this opportunity to apply updated preprocessing to the fMRI data and revise the GLM models, making them both simpler and more comprehensive. The results section is thus substantially revised, now including a new main figure and several supplemental figures that more clearly present our fMRI findings. Additionally, we have uploaded the statistical maps to NeuroVault, allowing readers to explore the full maps interactively rather than relying solely on the static images in the paper. The new analyses strengthen our original conclusion: dynamic values (previously referred to as revalued values, following the reviewer’s suggestion) better explain BOLD activity in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, a region consistently associated with valuation, than static values (values reported prior to the choice phase in the auction procedure).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Zylberberg and colleagues show that food choice outcomes and BOLD signal in the vmPFC are better explained by algorithms that update subjective values during the sequence of choices compared to algorithms based on static values acquired before the decision phase. This study presents a valuable means of reducing the apparent stochasticity of choices in common laboratory experiment designs. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, although currently limited to choices between food items because no other goods were examined. The work will be of interest to researchers examining decision-making across various social and biological sciences.

      Strengths:

      The paper analyses multiple food choice datasets to check the robustness of its findings in that domain.

      The paper presents simulations and robustness checks to back up its core claims.

      Weaknesses:

      To avoid potential misunderstandings of their work, I think it would be useful for the authors to clarify their statements and implications regarding the utility of item ratings/bids (e-values) in explaining choice behavior. Currently, the paper emphasizes that e-values have limited power to predict choices without explicitly stating the likely reason for this limitation given its own results or pointing out that this limitation is not unique to e-values and would apply to choice outcomes or any other preference elicitation measure too. The core of the paper rests on the argument that the subjective values of the food items are not stored as a relatively constant value, but instead are constructed at the time of choice based on the individual's current state. That is, a food's subjective value is a dynamic creation, and any measure of subjective value will become less accurate with time or new inputs (see Figure 3 regarding choice outcomes, for example). The e-values will change with time, choice deliberation, or other experiences to reflect the change in subjective value. Indeed, most previous studies of choice-induced preference change, including those cited in this manuscript, use multiple elicitations of e-values to detect these changes. It is important to clearly state that this paper provides no data on whether e-values are more or less limited than any other measure of eliciting subjective value. Rather, the paper shows that a static estimate of a food's subjective value at a single point in time has limited power to predict future choices. Thus, a more accurate label for the e-values would be static values because stationarity is the key assumption rather than the means by which the values are elicited or inferred.

      Thank you for this helpful comment. We changed the terminology following the reviewer’s suggestion. The “explicit” values (e-values or ve) are now called “static” values (s-values or vs). Accordingly, we also changed the “Reval” values (r-values or vr) to “dynamic” values (d-values or vd).

      We also address the reviewer's more general point about the utility of item ratings/bids (s-values) and whether our results are likely to hold with other ways of eliciting subjective values. We added a new sub-section in Discussion addressing this and other limitations of our study. To address the reviewer’s point, we write:

      “One limitation of our study is that we only examined tasks in which static values were elicited from explicit reports of the value of food items. It remains to be determined if other ways of eliciting subjective values (e.g., Jensen and Miller, 2010) would lead to similar results. We think so, as the analysis of trials with identical item pairs (Fig. 3) and the difference between forward and backward Reval (Fig. 7) are inconsistent with the notion that values are static, regardless of their precise value. It also remains to be determined if our results will generalize to non-food items whose value is less sensitive to satiety and other dynamic bodily states. Perceptual decisions also exhibit sequential dependencies, and it remains to be explored whether these can be explained as a process of value construction, similar to what we propose here for the food-choice task (Gupta et al., 2024; Cho et al., 2002; Zylberberg et al., 2018; Abrahamyan et al., 2016).”

      There is a puzzling discrepancy between the fits of a DDM using e-values in Figure 1 versus Figure 5. In Figure 1, the DDM using e-values provides a rather good fit to the empirical data, while in Figure 5 its match to the same empirical data appears to be substantially worse. I suspect that this is because the value difference on the x-axis in Figure 1 is based on the e-values, while in Figure 5 it is based on the r-values from the Reval algorithm. However, the computation of the value difference measure on the two x-axes is not explicitly described in the figures or methods section and these details should be added to the manuscript. If my guess is correct, then I think it is misleading to plot the DDM fit to e-values against choice and RT curves derived from r-values. Comparing Figures 1 and 5, it seems that changing the axes creates an artificial impression that the DDM using e-values is much worse than the one fit using r-values.

      We agree with the reviewer that this way of presenting the DDM fits could be misleading. In the previous version of the manuscript, we included the two fits in the same figure panel to make it clear that the sensitivity (slope) of the choice function is greater when we fit the data using the r-values (now d-values) than when we fit them using the e-values (now s-values). In the revised version of Figure 5, we include the data points already shown in Figure 1, so that each DDM fit is shown with their corresponding data points. Thus we avoid giving the false impression that the DDM model fit using the s-values is much worse than the one fit using the d-values. This said, the fit is indeed worse, as we now show with the formal model comparison suggested by the reviewer (next comment).

      Relatedly, do model comparison metrics favor a DDM using r-values over one using e-values in any of the datasets tested? Such tests, which use the full distribution of response times without dividing the continuum of decision difficulty into arbitrary hard and easy bins, would be more convincing than the tests of RT differences between the categorical divisions of hard versus easy.

      We now include the model comparison suggested by the reviewer. The comparison shows that the DDM model using dynamic values explains the choice and response time data better than one using static values. One potential caveat of this comparison, which explains why we did not include it in the original version of the manuscript, is that the d-values are obtained from a fit to the choice data, which could bias the subsequent DDM comparison. We control for this in three ways: (1) by calculating the difference in Bayesian Information Criterion (BIC) between the models, penalizing the DDM model that uses the d-values for the additional parameter (δ); (2) by comparing the difference in BIC against simulations of a model in which the choice and RT data were obtained assuming static values; this analysis shows that if values were static, the DDM using static values would be favored in the comparison despite having one fewer parameter; (3) ignoring the DDM fit to the choices in the model comparison, and just comparing how well the two models explain the RTs; this comparison is unbiased because the δ values are fit only to the choice data, not the RTs. These analyses are now included in Figure 5 and Figure 5–Figure supplement 2.

      Revaluation and reduction in the imprecision of subjective value representations during (or after) a choice are not mutually exclusive. The fact that applying Reval in the forward trial order leads to lower deviance than applying it in the backwards order (Figure 7) suggests that revaluation does occur. It doesn't tell us if there is also a reduction in imprecision. A comparison of backwards Reval versus no Reval would indicate whether there is a reduction in imprecision in addition to revaluation. Model comparison metrics and plots of the deviance from the logistic regression fit using e-values against backward and forward Reval models would be useful to show the relative improvement for both forms of Reval.

      We agree with the reviewer that the occurrence of revaluation does not preclude other factors from affecting valuation. Following the reviewer’s suggestion we added a panel to Figure 6 (new panel B), in which we show the change in the deviance from the logistic regression fits between Reval (forward direction) and no-Reval. The figure clearly shows that the difference in deviance for the data is much larger than that obtained from simulations of choice data generated from the logistic fits to the static values (shown in red).

      Interestingly, we also observe that the deviance obtained after applying Reval in the backward direction is lower than that obtained using the s-values. We added a panel to figure 7 showing this (Fig. 7B). This observation, however, does not imply that there are factors affecting valuation besides revaluation (e.g.,”reduction in imprecision”). Indeed, as we now show in a new panel in Figure 11 (panel F), the same effect (lower deviance for backward Reval than no-Reval) is observed in simulations of the ceDDM.

      Besides the new figure panels (Fig. 6B, 7B, 11F), we mention in Discussion (new subsection, “Limitations...”, paragraph #2) the possibility that there are other non-dynamic contributions to the reduction in deviance for Backward Reval compared to no-Reval:

      “Another limitation of our study is that, in one of the datasets we analyzed (Sepulveda et al. 2020), applying Reval in the forward direction was no better than applying it in the backward direction (Fig. 10). We speculate that this failure is related to idiosyncrasies of the experimental design, in particular, the use of alternating blocks of trials with different instructions (select preferred vs. select non-preferred). More importantly, Reval applied in the backward direction led to a significant reduction in deviance relative to that obtained using the static values. This reduction was also observed in the ceDDM, suggesting that the effect may be explained by the changes in valuation during deliberation. However, we cannot discard a contribution from other, non-dynamic changes in valuation between the rating and choice phase including contextual effects (Lichtenstein and Slovic, 2006), stochastic variability in explicit value reporting (Polania et al., 2019), and the limited range of numerical scales used to report value.”

      Did the analyses of BOLD activity shown in Figure 9 orthogonalize between the various e-valueand r-value-based regressors? I assume they were not because the idea was to let the two types of regressors compete for variance, but orthogonalization is common in fMRI analyses so it would be good to clarify that this was not used in this case. Assuming no orthogonalization, the unique variance for the r-value of the chosen option in a model that also includes the e-value of the chosen option is the delta term that distinguishes the r and e-values. The delta term is a scaled count of how often the food item was chosen and rejected in previous trials. It would be useful to know if the vmPFC BOLD activity correlates directly with this count or the entire r-value (e-value + delta). That is easily tested using two additional models that include only the r-value or only the delta term for each trial.

      We did not orthogonalize the static value and dynamic value regressors. We have included this detail in the revised methods. We thank the reviewer for the suggestion to run additional models to improve our ability to interpret our findings. We have substantially revised all fMRI-related sections of the paper. We took this opportunity to apply standardized and reproducible preprocessing steps implemented in fmriprep, present whole-brain corrected maps on a reconstructed surface of a template brain, and include links to the full statistical maps for the reader to navigate the full map, rather than rely on the static image in the figures. We implemented four models in total: model 1 includes both static value (Vs) obtained during the auction procedure prior to the choice phase and dynamic value (Vd) output by the revaluation algorithm (similar to the model presented in the first submission); model 2 includes only delta = Vd - Vs; model 3 includes only Vs; model 4 includes only Vd. All models included the same confound and nuisance regressors. We found that Vd was positively related to BOLD in vmPFC when accounting for Vs, correcting for familywise error rate at the whole brain level. Interestingly, the relationship between delta and vmPFC BOLD did not survive whole-brain correction and the effect size of the relationship between Vd and vmPFC bold in model 4 was larger than the effect size of the relationship between Vs and vmPFC bold in model 3 and survived correction at the whole brain level encompassing more of the vmPFC. Together, these findings bolster our claim that Vd better accounts for BOLD variability in vmPFC, a brain region reliably linked to valuation.

      Please confirm that the correlation coefficients shown in Figure 11 B are autocorrelations in the MCMC chains at various lags. If this interpretation is incorrect, please give more detail on how these coefficients were computed and what they represent.

      We added a paragraph in Methods explaining how we compute the correlations in Figure 11B (last paragraph of the sub-section “Correlated-evidence DDM” in Methods):

      “The correlations in Fig. 11B were generated using the best-fitting parameters for each participant to simulate 100,000 Markov chains. We generate Markov chain samples independently for the left and right items over a 1-second period. To illustrate noise correlations, the simulations assume that the static value of both the left and right items is zero. We then and for each of the Markov chains (𝑥). Pearson's𝑥 correlation is computed between these 𝑡 calculate the difference in dynamic value ( ) between the left and right items at each time (𝑡) differences at time zero, 𝑥𝑖(𝑡 = 0), and at time 𝑥𝑖(𝑡 = τ), for different time lags τ. Correlations were calculated independently for each participant. Each trace in Fig. 11B represents a different participant.”

      The paper presents the ceDDM as a proof-of-principle type model that can reproduce certain features of the empirical data. There are other plausible modifications to bounded evidence accumulation (BEA) models that may also reproduce these features as well or better than the ceDDM. For example, a DDM in which the starting point bias is a function of how often the two items were chosen or rejected in previous trials. My point is not that I think other BEA models would be better than the ceDDM, but rather that we don't know because the tests have not been run. Naturally, no paper can test all potential models and I am not suggesting that this paper should compare the ceDDM to other BEA processes. However, it should clearly state what we can and cannot conclude from the results it presents.

      Indeed, the ceDDM should be interpreted as a proof-of-principle model, which shows that drifting values can explain many of our results. It is definitely wrong in the details, and we are open to the possibility that a different way of introducing sequential dependencies between decisions may lead to a better match to the experimental data. We now mention this in a new subsection of Discussion, “Limitations...” paragraph #3:

      “Finally, we emphasize that the ceDDM should be interpreted as a proof-of-principle model used to illustrate how stochastic fluctuations in item desirability can explain many of our results. We chose to model value changes following an MCMC process. However, other stochastic processes or other ways of introducing sequential dependencies (e.g., variability in the starting point of evidence accumulation) may also explain the behavioral observations. Furthermore, there likely are other ways to induce changes in the value of items other than through past decisions. For example, attentional manipulations or other experiences (e.g., actual food consumption) may change one's preference for an item. The current version of the ceDDM does not allow for these influences on value, but we see no fundamental limitation to incorporating them in future instantiations of the model.”

      This work has important practical implications for many studies in the decision sciences that seek to understand how various factors influence choice outcomes. By better accounting for the context-specific nature of value construction, studies can gain more precise estimates of the effects of treatments of interest on decision processes.

      Thank you!

      That said, there are limitations to the generalizability of these findings that should be noted.

      These limitations stem from the fact that the paper only analyzes choices between food items and the outcomes of the choices are not realized until the end of the study (i.e., participants do not eat the chosen item before making the next choice). This creates at least two important limitations. First, preferences over food items may be particularly sensitive to mindsets/bodily states. We don't yet know how large the choice deltas may be for other types of goods whose value is less sensitive to satiety and other dynamic bodily states. Second, the somewhat artificial situation of making numerous choices between different pairs of items without receiving or consuming anything may eliminate potential decreases in the preference for the chosen item that would occur in the wild outside the lab setting. It seems quite probable that in many real-world decisions, the value of a chosen good is reduced in future choices because the individual does not need or want multiples of that item. Naturally, this depends on the durability of the good and the time between choices. A decrease in the value of chosen goods is still an example of dynamic value construction, but I don't see how such a decrease could be produced by the ceDDM.

      These are all great points. The question of how generalizable our results are to other domains is wide open. We do have preliminary evidence suggesting that in a perceptual decision-making task with two relevant dimensions (motion and color; Kang, Loffler et al. eLife 2021), the dimension that was most informative to resolve preference in the past is prioritized in future decisions. We believe that a similar process underlies the apparent change in value in value-based decisions. We decided not to include this experiment in the manuscript, as it would make the paper much longer and the experimental designs are very different. Exploring the question of generality is a matter for future studies.

      We also agree that food consumption is likely to change the value of the items. For example, after eating something salty we are likely to want something to drink. We mention in the revised manuscript that time, choice deliberation, attentional allocation and other experiences (including food consumption) are likely to change the value of the alternatives and thus affect future choices and valuations.

      The ceDDM captures only sequential dependencies that can be attributed to values that undergo diffusion-type changes during deliberation. While the ceDDM captures many of the experimental observations, the value of an item may change for reasons not captured by the ceDDM. For example, food consumption is likely to change the value of items (e.g., wanting something to drink after eating something salty). The reviewer is correct that the current version of ceDDM could not account for these changes in value. However, we see no fundamental limitation to extending the ceDDM to account for them.

      We discuss these issues in a new subsection in Discussion (“Limitations...” paragraph #3).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Summary

      The authors address assumptions of bounded accumulation of evidence for value-based decision-making. They provide convincing evidence that subjects drift in their subjective preferences across time and demonstrate valuable methods to detect these drifts in certain task designs.

      My specific comments are intended to assist the authors with making the paper as clear as possible. My only major concern is with the reporting of the fMRI results.

      Thank you, please see our responses above for a description of the changes we made to the fMRI analyses.

      Specific comments

      - In the intro, I would ask the authors to consider the idea that things like slow drift in vigilance/motivation or faster drifts in spatial attention could also generate serial dependencies in perceptual tasks. I think the argument that these effects are larger in value-based tasks is reasonable, but the authors go a bit too far (in my opinion) arguing that similar effects do not exist *at all* in perceptual decision-making.

      We added a sentence in the Discussion (new section on Limitations, paragraph #1) mentioning some of the literature on sequential dependencies in perceptual tasks and asking whether there might be a common explanation for such dependencies for perceptual and value-based decisions. We tried including this in the Introduction, but we thought it disrupted the flow too much.

      - Figure 1: would it not be more clear to swap the order of panels A and B? Since B comes first in the task?

      We agree, we swapped the order of panels A and B.

      - Figure 2: the label 'simulations' might be better as 'e-value simulations'

      Yes, we changed the label ‘simulations’ to ‘simulations with s-values’ (we changed the term explicit value to static value, following a suggestion by Reviewer #2).

      - For the results related to Figure 2, some citations related to gaps between "stated versus revealed preferences" seem appropriate.

      We added a few relevant citations where we explain the results related to Figure 2.

      - Figure 3: in addition to a decrease in match preferences over the session, it would be nice to look at other features of the task which might have varied over the session. e.g. were earlier trials more likely to be predicted by e-value?

      We do see a trend in this direction, but the effect is not significant. The following figure shows the consistency of the choices with the stated values, as a function of the |∆value|, for the first half (blue) and the second half (red) of the trials. The x-axis discretizes the absolute value of the difference in static value between the left and right items, binned in 17 bins of approximately equal number of trials.

      Author response image 1.

      The slope is shallower for the second half, but a logistic regression model revealed that the difference is not significant:

      ,

      where Ilate is an indicator variable that takes a value of 1 for the second half of the trials and zero otherwise.

      As expected from the figure β2 was negative (-0.15) but the effect was not significant (p-value =0.32, likelihood ratio test).

      We feel we do not have much to say about this result, which may be due to lack of statistical power, so we would rather not include this analysis in the revised manuscript.

      It is worth noting that if we repeat the analysis using the dynamic values obtained from Reval instead of the static values, the consistency is overall much greater and little difference is observed between the first and second halves of the experiment:

      Author response image 2.

      - The e-value DDM fit in Figure 1C/D goes through the points pretty well, but the e-value fits in 5A do not because of a mismatch with the axis. The x-axis needs to say whether the value difference is the e-value or the r-value. Also, it seems only fair to plot the DDM for the r-value on a plot with the x-axis being the e-value.

      Thank you for this comment, we have now changed Figure 5A, such that both sets of data points are shown (data grouped by both e-values and by r-values). We agree that the previous version made it seem as if the fits were worse for the DDM fit to the e-values. The fits are indeed worse, as revealed by a new DDM model comparison (Figure 5–Figure supplement 2), but the effect is more subtle than the previous version of the figure implied.

      - How is Figure 5B "model free" empirical support? The fact that the r-value model gives better separation of the RTs on easy and hard trials doesn't seem "model-free" and also it isn't clear how this directly relates to being a better model. It seems that just showing a box-plot of the R2 for the RT of the two models would be better?

      We agree that “model free” may not be the best expression, since the r-values (now d-values) are derived from a model (Reval). Our intention was to make clear that because Reval only depends on the choices, the relationship between RT and ∆vdynamic is a prediction. We no longer use the term, model free, in the caption. We tried to clarify the point in Results, where we explain this figure panel. We have also included a new model comparison (Figure 5–Figure supplement 2), showing that the DDM model fit to the d-values explains choice and RT better than one fit to the s-values.

      This said, we do consider the separation in RTs between easy and hard trials to be a valid metric to compare the accuracy of the static and dynamic values. The key assumption is that there is a monotonically decreasing relationship between value difference, ∆v, and response time. The monotonic relationship does not need to hold for individual trials (due to the noisiness of the RTs) but should hold if one were to average a large enough number of trials for each value of ∆v.

      Under this assumption, the more truthful a value representation is (i.e., the closer the value we infer is to the true subjective value of the item on a given trial, assuming one exists), the greater the difference in RTs between trials judged to be difficult and those considered easy. To illustrate this with an extreme case, if an experimenter’s valuation of the items is very inaccurate (e.g., done randomly), then on average there will be no difference between easy and difficult RTs as determined by this scoring.

      - Line 189: Are the stats associated with Eq 7, was the model fit subject by subject? Combining subjects? A mixed-effects model? Why not show a scatter plot of the coefficients of Δvₑ and Δvᵣ (1 point/subject).

      The model was not fit separately for each subject. Instead, we concatenated trials from all subjects, allowing each subject to have a different bias term (β0,i ).

      We have now replaced it with the analysis suggested by the reviewer. We fit the logistic regression model independently for each participant. The scatter plot suggested by the reviewer is shown in Figure 5–Figure supplement 1. Error bars indicate the s.e. of the regression coefficients:

      It can be seen that the result is consistent with what we reported before: βd is significantly positive for all participants, while βs is not.

      - I think Figure S1 should be a main figure.

      Thank you for this suggestion, we have now included the former Figure S1 as an additional panel in Figure 5.

      - Fig 9 figure and text (line 259) don't exactly match. In the text it says that the BOLD correlated with vᵣ and not vₑ, but the caption says there were correlations with vᵣ after controlling for vₑ. Is there really nothing in the brain that correlated with vₑ? This seems hard to believe given how correlated the two estimates are. In the methods, 8 regressors are described. A more detailed description of the results is needed.

      Thank you for pointing out the inconsistency in our portrayal of the results in the main text and in the figure caption. We have substantially revised all fMRI methods, re-ran fMRI data preprocessing and implemented new, simpler, and more comprehensive GLM models following Reviewer #2's suggestion. Consequently, we have replaced Figure 9, added Figure 9 — Figure Supplement 1, and uploaded all maps to NeuroVault. These new models and maps allow for a clearer interpretation of our findings. More details about the fMRI analyses in the methods and results are included in the revision. We took care to use similar language in the main text and in the figure captions to convey the results and interpretation. The new analyses strengthen our original conclusion: dynamic values better explain BOLD activity in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, a region consistently associated with valuation, than static values.

      - It's great that the authors reanalyzed existing datasets (fig 10). I think the ΔRT plots are the least clear way to show that _reval_ is better. Why not a figure like Figure 6a and Figure 7 for the existing datasets?

      We agree with the reviewer. We have replaced Fig. 10 with a more detailed version. For each dataset, we show the ΔRT plots, but we also show figures equivalent to Fig. 6a, Fig. 7a, and the new Fig. 6b (Deviance with and without Reval).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I assume that the data and analysis code will be made publicly and openly available once the version of record is established.

      Yes, the data and analysis code is now available at: https://github.com/arielzylberberg/Reval_eLife_2024

      We added a Data Availability statement to the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Previous studies have used a randomly induced label to estimate the number of hematopoietic precursors that contribute to hematopoiesis. In particular, the McKinneyFreeman lab established a measurable range of precursors of 50-2500 cells using random induction of one of the 4 fluorescent proteins (FPs) of a Confetti reporter in the fetal liver to show that hundreds of precursors establish lifelong hematopoiesis. In the presented work, Liu and colleagues aim to extend the measurable range of precursor numbers previously established and enable measurement in a variety of contexts beyond embryonic development. To this end, the authors investigated whether the random induction of a given Confetti FP follows the principles of binomial distribution such that the variance inversely correlates with the precursor number. They tested their hypothesis using a simplified 2-color in vitro system, paying particular attention to minimizing sources of experimental error (elimination of outliers, sample size, events recorded, etc.) that may obscure the measurement of variance. As a result, the data generated are robust and show that the measurable range of precursors can be extended up to 105 cells. They use tamoxifen-inducible Scl-CreER, which is active in hematopoietic stem and progenitor cells (HSPCs) to induce Confetti labeling, and investigated whether they could extend their model to cell numbers below 50 with in vivo transplantation of high versus low numbers of Confetti total bone marrow (BM) cells. The premise of binomial distribution requires that the number of precursors remains constant within a group of mice. The rare frequency of HSPCs in the BM means that the experimentally generated "low" number recipient animals showed some small variability of seeding number, which does not follow the requirement for binomial distribution. While variance due to differences in precursor numbers still dominates, it is unclear how accurate estimated numbers are when precursor numbers are low (<10).

      According to our simulation, the differences between estimated numbers and the corresponding expected numbers are more profound at numbers below 10, but they are still relatively small. Since Figure S4A is in log-scale, it might be difficult for readers to appreciate the magnitude in difference from the graph. We plan to add a linear scale figure to Figure S4A for better visualization of the absolute value differences (left). We also plan to provide an additional graph quantifying the value differences between estimated and expected values for numbers below 15 (right). From both graphs, the maximum difference between estimated n and expected n occurs at 10 precursor numbers (estimated as 7.6). We admit that these numbers are not numerically the same, and some minor correction of the formula may be needed if a very accurate absolute number is warrant. However, we also want to emphasize that 1. most estimated n values are within 25% range of the expected n; 2. despite the minor discrepancy, the estimated n is still highly correlated with the expected n, so the comparison between different precursor numbers was not affected.

      Author response image 1.

      The authors then apply their model to estimate the number of hematopoietic precursors that contribute to hematopoiesis in a variety of contexts including adult steady state, fetal liver, following myeloablation, and a genetic model of Fanconi anemia. Their modeling shows:

      - thousands of precursors (~2400-2600) contribute to adult myelopoiesis, which is in line with results from a previous study (Sun et al, 2014).

      - myeloablation (single dose 5-FU), while reducing precursor numbers of myeloid progenitors and HSPCs, was not associated with a reduction in precursor numbers of LTHSCs.

      - no major expansion of precursor number in the fetal liver derived from labeling at E11.5 versus E14.5, consistent with recent findings from Ganuza et al, 2022.

      - normal precursor numbers in Fancc-/- mice at steady state and from competitive transplantation of young Fancc-/- BM cells, suggesting that reduced Fancc-/- cell proliferation may underlie the reduced chimerism upon transplantation.

      - reduced number of lymphoid precursors following transplantation of BM cells from 9month-old Fancc-/- animals (beyond this age animals have decreased survival).

      Although this system does not permit the tracing of individual clones, the modeling presented allows measurements of clonal activity covering nearly the entire HSPC population (as recently estimated by Cosgrove et al, 2021) and can be applied to a wide range of in vivo contexts with relative ease. The conclusions are generally sound and based on high-quality data. Nevertheless, some results could benefit from further explanation or discussion:

      - The estimated number of LT-HSCs that contribute to myelopoiesis is not specifically provided, but from the text, it would be calculated to be 1958/5 = ~391. Data from Busch et al, 2015 suggest that the number of differentiation-active HSCs is 5.2x103, which is considered the maximum limit. There is nevertheless a more than 10-fold difference between these two estimates, and it is unclear how this discrepancy arises.

      First, we would like to clarify a sentence in the manuscript. 

      “The average myeloid precursor number at the time of BM analysis (1958) matched the average precursor number calculated from BM myeloid progenitors (MP, Lin-Sca-1-cKit+) and HSPCs (1773 and 1917), but it was five-fold higher than that of LT-HSC (Figure 3E).”

      In this sentence, we compared the number of precursors calculated from peripheral blood myeloid cells to the those calculated from BM myeloid progenitor, HSPC and LT-HSC. However, we did not intend to imply that those precursors numbers calculated from HSPC and LT-HSC specifically contribute to myelopoiesis. To avoid misunderstanding, we propose to change this sentence to read:

      “The average precursor number calculated from PB myeloid cells at the time of BM analysis (1958) matched those calculated from BM myeloid progenitors (MP, Lin-Sca-1-cKit+) and HSPCs (1773 and 1917), but it was fivefold higher than that of LT-HSC (Figure 3E).”

      Nonetheless, we appreciate the reviewers’ comment on the gap between the precursor numbers of LT-HSC and the number of differentiation-active HSCs reported in Busch et al, 2015. We propose the following explanation: 

      First of all, precursor numbers reflect LT-HSC self-renewal by symmetric division and maintenance by asymmetric division but not differentiation. To compare the number of differentiation-active LT-HSC, precursor numbers measured from differentiated progeny (progenitors) is a better choice. As our system does not differentiate the origin of a precursor, measuring the precursor number of differentiation-active LT-HSC is difficult, since progenitors may also derive from other long-lived MPPs. However, if we assume that most divisions of LT-HSC are asymmetric division, generating one LT-HSC and one progenitor, then we can approximate the number of differentiation-active HSCs with the precursor numbers of LT-HSC.

      Second, when Busch et al, 2015 calculated the number of differentiation-active HSC, they measured the cumulative activity of stem cells by following the mice up to 36 weeks postinduction. Our method measured the recent but not accumulative activity of HSC, thus the number of differentiation-active HSC in Busch et al 2015 is predicted to be higher. 

      Third, Busch et al, 2015 used Tie2MCM Cre to trace HSC. It has been shown that Tie2+ HSC have a higher reconstitution capacity (Ito et al 2016, Science), but no one has compared the in situ activity of Tie2+ and Tie2- HSC in a native environment. Since the behavior of HSCs in situ may be very different from their behavior in a transplantation setting, it is possible that Tie2+ HSC are more prone to differentiation than Tie2- HSC in a native environment, leading to an overestimation of differentiation-active HSC in the HSC pool. 

      - Similarly, in Figure 3E, the estimated number of precursors is highest in MPP4, a population typically associated with lymphoid potential and transient myeloid potential, whereas the numbers of MPP3, traditionally associated with myeloid potential, tend to be higher but are not significantly different than those found in HSCs.

      We believe this question results from similar confusion of the nomenclature of myeloid precursors in the previous question. As explained previously, the precursors quantified reflect a variety of possible differentiation routes, not just myelopoiesis. Thus, Figure 3E did not suggest that the lymphoid-biased MPP4 has more myeloid precursors than LTHSC. Instead, it simply means more precursors contribute to MPP4 population than the LT-HSC pool. We apologize for the confusion.

      - The requirement for estimating precursor numbers at stable levels of Confetti labeling is not well explained. As a result, it is unclear how accurate the estimates of B cell precursors upon transplantation of Fancc-/- cells are. In previous experiments on normal Confetti mice (Figure 3B), the authors do not estimate precursors of lymphopoiesis because Confetti labeling of B cells is not saturated, and this appears to be the case in Fanc-/- animals as well (Fig. 5B).

      We appreciate the request for clarification. Our approach required the labeling level to be stable in peripheral blood because we calculate the total number of precursors by normalizing precursor numbers in Confetti+ population with the labeling level (precursor numbers in Confetti+ population divided by labeling efficiency). If the labeling level is not saturated, then the calculation of total precursors will be overestimated. This requirement is more important in native hematopoiesis, since it takes a long time for the mature population, especially the lymphoid population, to be fully replaced by the progenies from the labeled HSPC population (as suggested by Busch et al 2015 and Säwen et al 2018). In transplantation, since lethal irradiation was performed, mature blood cells were rapidly generated by HSPCs, thus saturation of labeling level is not a major concern for precursor quantification. We plan to add Author response image 2 as evidence that Confetti labeling level was stable in mice transplanted with Fancc-/- cells.  

      Author response image 2.

      - Do 9-month-old Fanc-/- animals have reduced lymphoid precursors as well?

      Because of the non-saturated labeling in peripheral blood B cells and extra-HSPC induction of Confetti in T cells, we cannot accurately measure lymphoid precursor numbers in 9-month-old Fancc-/- animals. As an alternative, the precursor number of lymphoid biased MPP4 population were comparable between Fancc+/+ and Fancc-/- animals (Figure 5D).   We plan to add the frequency of common lymphoid progenitors (defined by Lin-IL-7Ra+Sca-1midcKitmid) add a supplementary figure to show were CLP frequencies between these two genotypes.

      Author response image 3.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Liu et al. uses Confetti labeling of hematopoietic stem and progenitor cells in situ to infer the clonal dynamics of adult hematopoiesis. The authors apply a new mathematical framework to analyze the data, allowing them to increase the range of applicability of this tool up to tens of thousands of precursors. With this tool, they (1) provide evidence for the large polyclonality of adult hematopoiesis, (2) offer insights on the expansion dynamics in the fetal liver stage, (3) assess the clonal dynamics in a Fanconi anemia model (Fancc), which has engraftment defects during transplantation.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well written, with beautiful and clear figures, and both methods and mathematical models are clear and easy to understand.

      Since 2017, Mikel Ganuza and Shannon McKinney-Freeman have been using these Confetti approaches that rely on calculating the variance across independent biological replicates as a way to infer clonal dynamics. This is a powerful tool and it is a pleasure to see it being implemented in more labs around the world. One of the cool novelties of the current manuscript is using a mathematical model (based on a binomial distribution) to avoid directly regressing the Confetti labeling variance with the number of clones (which only has linearity for a small range of clone numbers). As a result, this current manuscript of Liu et al. methodologically extends the usability of the Confetti approach, allowing them more precise and robust quantification.

      They then use this model to revisit some questions from various Ganuza et al. papers, validating most of their conclusions. The application to the clonal dynamics of hematopoiesis in a model of Fanconi anemia (Fancc mice) is very much another novel aspect, and shows the surprising result that clonal dynamics are remarkably similar to the wild-type (in spite of the defect that these Fancc HSCs have during engraftment).

      Overall, the manuscript succeeds at what it proposes to do, stretching out the possibilities of this Confetti model, which I believe will be useful for the entire community of stem cell biologists, and possibly make these assays available to other stem cell regenerating systems.

      Weaknesses:

      My main concern with this work is the choice of CreER driver line, which then relates to some of the conclusions made. Scl-CreER succeeds at being as homogenous as possible in labeling HSC/MPPs... however it is clear that it also labels a subcompartment of HSC clones that become dominant with time... This is seen as the percentage of Confettirecombined cells never ceases to increase during the 9-month chase of labeled cells, suggesting that non-labeled cells are being replaced by labeled cells. The reason why this is important is that then one cannot really make conclusions about the clonal dynamics of the unlabeled cells (e.g. for estimating the total number of clones, etc.).

      We appreciate the reviewers’ comments. We also agree that this is especially a concern for measuring B cell precursors in native hematopoiesis. For myeloid cells, the increase was much less profound (0.5% per month) after month four post-induction. One way to investigate the dynamics of unlabeled cells is to induce different groups of mice with different doses of tamoxifen so that labeling efficiency varies among different groups. With 14 days of tamoxifen treatment, maximum 60% of HSPC can be labeled (RFP+CFP+YFP). If the unlabeled cells behave similarly with labeled cells, then varying the labeling efficiency shouldn’t affect the total number of precursors calculated (if excluding the potential effect of longer tamoxifen treatment on HSC). While we haven’t extensively performed such lengthy experiment, we have performed one measurement (5 mice) with 14-days of tamoxifen treatment and showed that peripheral blood myeloid precursor numbers calculated from this experiment were comparable to the ones from Figure 3 (2-day tamoxifen).

      Author response image 4.

      It's possible that those HSPC that are never labeled with Confetti even during longer tamoxifen treatment could behave differently. In this case, a different Cre driver may provide insight into the total precursor numbers.

      I am not sure about the claims that the data shows little precursor expansion from E11 to E14. First, these experiments are done with fewer than 5 replicates, and thus they have much higher error, which is particularly concerning for distinguishing differences of such a small number of clones. Second, the authors do see a ~0.5-1 log difference between E11 and E14 (when looking at months 2-3). When looking at months 5+, there is already a clear decline in the total number of clones in both adult-labeled and embryonic-labeled, so these time points are not as good for estimating the embryonic expansion. In any case, the number of precursors at E11 (which in the end defines the degree of expansion) is always overestimated (and thus, the expansion underestimated) due to the effects of lingering tamoxifen after injection (which continues to cause Confetti allele recombination as stem cell divide). Thus, I think these results are still compatible with expansion in the fetal liver (the degree of which still remains uncertain to me).

      We agreed adding additional replicates will reducing any error and boost confidence in our conclusions. The dilemma of comparing fetal- and adult-labeled cohorts is that HSPC activities could not be synchronized among different developmental stages. At fetal to neonatal stage, HSPC proliferate faster to generate new blood cells and support developmental need, while at adult stage HSPC proliferate much slower. Thus, it takes long time for the mature myeloid cells in the adult-labeled cohort to reach a stable Confetti labeling and provide an accurate quantification of precursor. While we agree that it might be better to compare precursor numbers in earlier months, we preferred to compare precursor numbers at later time points for the aforementioned reasons. The other option is to compare the number of HSPC precursors in the BM at earlier time points, as no equilibration of labeling level is required in HSPC, but this requires earlier sacrifice, compromising long term assessment.    

      We did not revisit questions about the lingering effect of tamoxifen, as this has been studied by Ganuza et al 2017. They showed that tamoxifen was not able to induce additional Confetti recombination if given one day ahead, suggesting the effective window for tamoxifen is less than 24h.

      Based on our data, the expansion of lifelong precursors range anywhere from 1.4 to 7.0 (Figure 4G). It’s possible that we might observe a higher level of expansion if the comparison was done in earlier time points. Nonetheless, the assertion that the expansion of life-long HSPC is not as profound as evidenced by transplantation, emphasizes value of HSPC activity analysis in situ.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:  

      Liu et al. focus on a mathematical method to quantify active hematopoietic precursors in mice using Confetti reporter mice combined with Cre-lox technology. The paper explores the hematopoietic dynamics in various scenarios, including homeostasis, myeloablation with 5-fluorouracil, Fanconi anemia (FA), and post-transplant environments. The key findings and strengths of the paper include (1) precursor quantification: The study develops a method based on the binomial distribution of fluorescent protein expression to estimate precursor numbers. This method is validated across a wide dynamic range, proving more reliable than previous approaches that suffered from limited range and high variance outside this range; (2) dynamic response analysis: The paper examines how hematopoietic precursors respond to myeloablation and transplantation; (3) application in disease models: The method is applied to the FA mouse model, revealing that these mice maintain normal precursor numbers under steady-state conditions and posttransplantation, which challenges some assumptions about FA pathology. Despite the normal precursor count, a diminished repopulation capability suggests other factors at play, possibly related to cell proliferation or other cellular dysfunctions. In addition, the FA mouse model showed a reduction in active lymphoid precursors post-transplantation, contributing to decreased repopulation capacity as the mice aged. The authors are aware of the limitation of the assumption of uniform expansion. The paper assumes a uniform expansion from active precursor to progenies for quantifying precursor numbers. This assumption may not hold in all biological scenarios, especially in disease states where hematopoietic dynamics can be significantly altered. If non-uniformity is high, this could affect the accuracy of the quantification. Overall, the study underscores the importance of precise quantification of hematopoietic precursors in understanding both normal and pathological states in hematopoiesis, presenting a robust tool that could significantly enhance research in hematopoietic disorders and therapy development. The following concerns should be addressed.

      Major Points:

      • The authors have shown a wide range of seeded cells (1 to 1e5) (Figure 1D) that follow the linear binomial rule. As the standard deviation converges eventually with more seeded cells, the authors need to address this limitation by seeding the number of cells at which the assumption fails.

      While number range above 105 is not required for our measurement of hematopoietic precursors in mice, we agree that it will be valuable to understand the upper limit of experimental measurement. we plan to seed 106-107 cells per replicate to address reviewer’s comments. 

      • Line 276: This suggests myelopoiesis is preferred when very few precursors are available after irradiation-mediated injury. Did the authors see more myeloid progenitors at 1 month post-transplantation with low precursor number? The authors need to show this data in a supplement.

      While we appreciate the concern, we did not generate this dataset because this requires take down of a substantial number of animals at one-month post-transplantation. 

      Minor Points:

      • Please cite a reference for line 40: a rare case where a single HSPC clone supports hematopoiesis.

      • Line 262-263: "This discrepancy may reflect uneven seeding of precursors to the BM throughout the body after transplantation and the fact that we only sampled a part of the BM (femur, tibia, and pelvis)." Consider citing this paper (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2023.09.019) that explores the HSPCs migration across different bones.

      • Lines 299 and 304. Misspellings of RFP.

      We appreciate reviewer’s suggestions and will modify as suggested. 

      • The title is misleading as the paper's main focus is the precursor number estimator using the binomial nature of fluorescent tagging. Using a single-copy cassette of Confetti mice cannot be used to measure clonality.

      We appreciate reviewer’s suggestions and plan to modify the title of the manuscript to read: “Dynamic Tracking of Native Precursors in Adult Mice”.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      In this study, Nishi et al. claim that the ratio of long-term hematopoietic stem cell (LT-HSC) versus short-term HSC (ST-HSC) determines the lineage output of HSCs and reduced ratio of ST-HSC in aged mice causes myeloid-biased hematopoiesis. The authors used Hoxb5 reporter mice to isolate LT-HSC and ST-HSC and performed molecular analyses and transplantation assays to support their arguments. How the hematopoietic system becomes myeloid-biased upon aging is an important question with many implications in the disease context as well. However, their study is descriptive with remaining questions.

      Weaknesses:

      Comment #1-1: The authors may need conceptual re-framing of their main argument because whether the ST-HSCs used in this study are functionally indeed short-term "HSCs" is questionable. The data presented in this study and their immunophenotypic definition of ST-HSCs (Lineage negative/Sca-1+/c-Kit+/Flk2-/CD34-/CD150+/Hoxb5-) suggest that authors may find hematopoietic stem cell-like lymphoid progenitors as previously shown for megakaryocyte lineage (Haas et al., Cell stem cell. 2015) or, as the authors briefly mentioned in the discussion, Hoxb5- HSCs could be lymphoid-biased HSCs.

      The authors disputed the idea that Hoxb5- HSCs as lymphoid-biased HSCs based on their previous 4 weeks post-transplantation data (Chen et al., 2016). However, they overlooked the possibility of myeloid reprogramming of lymphoid-biased population during regenerative conditions (Pietras et al., Cell stem cell., 2015). In other words, early post-transplant STHSCs (Hoxb5- HSCs) can be seen as lacking the phenotypic lymphoid-biased HSCs.

      Thinking of their ST-HSCs as hematopoietic stem cell-like lymphoid progenitors or lymphoidbiased HSCs makes more sense conceptually as well.

      Response #1-1: We appreciate this important suggestion and recognize the significance of the debate on whether Hoxb5- HSCs are ST-HSCs or lymphoid-biased HSCs.

      HSCs are defined by their ability to retain hematopoietic potential after a secondary transplantation1-2. If Hoxb5- HSCs were indeed lymphoid-biased HSCs, they would exhibit predominantly lymphoid hematopoiesis even after secondary transplantation. However, functional experiments demonstrate that these cells lose their hematopoietic output after secondary transplantation3 (see Fig. 2 in this paper). Based on the established definition of HSCs in this filed, it is appropriate to classify Hoxb5- HSCs as ST-HSCs rather than lymphoid-biased HSCs.

      Additionally, it has been reported that myeloid reprogramming may occur in the early posttransplant period, around 2-4 weeks after transplantation, even in lymphoid-biased populations within the MPP fraction, due to high inflammatory conditions4. However, when considering the post-transplant hematopoiesis of Hoxb5- HSC fractions as ST-HSCs, they exhibit almost the same myeloid hematopoietic potential as LT-HSCs not only during the early 4 weeks after transplantation but also at 8 weeks post-transplantation3, when the acute inflammatory response has largely subsided. Therefore, it is difficult to attribute the myeloid production by ST-HSCs post-transplant solely to myeloid reprogramming.

      References

      (1) Morrison, S. J. & Weissman, I. L. The long-term repopulating subset of hematopoietic stem cells is deterministic and isolatable by phenotype. Immunity 1, 661–673 (1994).

      (2) Challen, G. A., Boles, N., Lin, K. K. Y. & Goodell, M. A. Mouse hematopoietic stem cell identification and analysis. Cytom. Part A 75, 14–24 (2009).

      (3) Chen, J. Y. et al. Hoxb5 marks long-term haematopoietic stem cells and reveals a homogenous perivascular niche. Nature 530, 223–227 (2016).

      (4) Pietras, E. M. et al. Functionally Distinct Subsets of Lineage-Biased Multipotent Progenitors Control Blood Production in Normal and Regenerative Conditions. Cell Stem Cell 17, 35–46 (2015).

      Comment #1-2: ST-HSCs come from LT-HSCs and further differentiate into lineage-biased multipotent progenitor (MPP) populations including myeloid-biased MPP2 and MPP3. Based on the authors' claim, LT-HSCs (Hoxb5- HSCs) have no lineage bias even in aged mice. Then these LT-HSCs make ST-HSCs, which produce mostly memory T cells. These memory T cell-producing ST-HSCs then produce MPPs including myeloid-biased MPP2 and MPP3.

      This differentiation trajectory is hard to accept. If we think Hoxb5- HSCs (ST-HSCs by authors) as a sub-population of immunophenotypic HSCs with lymphoid lineage bias or hematopoietic stem cell-like lymphoid progenitors, the differentiation trajectory has no flaw.

      Response #1-2: Thank you for this comment, and we apologize for the misunderstanding regarding the predominance of memory T cells in ST-HSCs after transplantation. 

      Our data show that ST-HSCs are not biased HSCs that predominantly produce memory T cells, but rather, ST-HSCs are multipotent hematopoietic cells. ST-HSCs lose their ability to self-renew within a short period, resulting in the cessation of ST-HSC-derived hematopoiesis. As a result, myeloid lineage with a short half-life disappears from the peripheral blood, and memory lymphocytes with a long half-life remain (see Figure 5 in this paper). 

      Comment #1-3: Authors' experimental designs have some caveats to support their claims. Authors claimed that aged LT-HSCs have no myeloid-biased clone expansion using transplantation assays. In these experiments, authors used 10 HSCs and young mice as recipients. Given the huge expansion of old HSC by number and known heterogeneity in immunophenotypically defined HSC populations, it is questionable how 10 out of so many old HSCs can faithfully represent the old HSC population. The Hoxb5+ old HSC primary and secondary recipient mice data (Figure 2C and D) support this concern. In addition, they only used young recipients. Considering the importance of the inflammatory aged niche in the myeloid-biased lineage output, transplanting young vs old LT-HSCs into aged mice will complete the whole picture.

      Response #1-3: We appreciate the reviewer for the comments. We acknowledge that using ten HSCs may not capture the heterogeneity of aging HSCs.

      However, although most of our experiments have used a small number of transplanted cells (e.g., 10 cells), we have conducted functional experiments across Figures 2, 3, 5, 6, S3, and S6, totaling n = 126, equivalent to over 1260 cells. Previous studies have reported that myeloid-biased HSCs constitute more than 50% of the aged HSC population1-2. If myeloidbiased HSCs increase with age, they should be detectable in our experiments. Our functional experiments have consistently shown that Hoxb5+ HSCs exhibit unchanged lineage output throughout life. In contrast, the data presented in this paper indicate that changes in the ratio of LT-HSCs and ST-HSCs may contribute to myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.

      We believe that transplanting aged HSCs into aged recipient mice is crucial to analyzing not only the differentiation potential of aged HSCs but also the changes in their engraftment and self-renewal abilities. We aim to clarify further findings through these experiments in the future.

      References

      (1) Dykstra B, Olthof S, Schreuder J, Ritsema M, Haan G De. Clonal analysis reveals multiple functional defects of aged murine hematopoietic stem cells. J Exp Med. 2011 Dec 19;208(13):2691–703. 

      (2) Yamamoto R, Wilkinson AC, Ooehara J, Lan X, Lai CY, Nakauchi Y, et al. LargeScale Clonal Analysis Resolves Aging of the Mouse Hematopoietic Stem Cell Compartment. Cell Stem Cell [Internet]. 2018;22(4):600-607.e4. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.stem.2018.03.013

      Comment #1-4: The authors' molecular data analyses need more rigor with unbiased approaches. They claimed that neither aged LT-HSCs nor aged ST-HSCs exhibited myeloid or lymphoid gene set enrichment but aged bulk HSCs, which are just a sum of LT-HSCs and ST-HSCs by their gating scheme (Figure 4A), showed the "tendency" of enrichment of myeloid-related genes based on the selected gene set (Figure 4D). Although the proportion of ST-HSCs is reduced in bulk HSCs upon aging, since ST-HSCs do not exhibit lymphoid gene set enrichment based on their data, it is hard to understand how aged bulk HSCs have more myeloid gene set enrichment compared to young bulk HSCs. This bulk HSC data rather suggests that there could be a trend toward certain lineage bias (although not significant) in aged LT-HSCs or ST-HSCs. The authors need to verify the molecular lineage priming of LT-HSCs and ST-HSCs using another comprehensive dataset.

      Response #1-4: Thank you for pointing out that neither aged LT-HSCs nor aged ST-HSCs exhibited myeloid

      or lymphoid gene set enrichment, although aged bulk HSCs showed a tendency towards enrichment of myeloid-related genes.

      The actual GSEA result had an FDR > 0.05. Therefore, we cannot claim that bulk HSCs showed significant enrichment of myeloid-related genes with age. Consequently, we have revised the following sentences:

      [P11, L251] Neither aged LT-HSCs nor aged ST-HSCs exhibited myeloid/lymphoid gene set enrichment, while shared myeloid-related genes tended to be enriched in aged bulk-HSCs, although this enrichment was not statistically significant (Fig. 4, F and G).

      In addition to the above, we also found that the GSEA results differ among myeloid gene sets (Fig. 4, D-F; Fig. 4S, C-D). These findings suggest that discussing lineage bias in HSCs using GSEA is challenging. We believe that functional experimental data is crucial. From our functional experiments, when the ratio of LT-HSC to ST-HSC was reconstituted to match the ratio in young Bulk-HSCs (LT= 2:8) or aged bulk-HSCs (LT= 5:5), myeloid-biased hematopoiesis was observed with the aged bulk-HSC ratio. Based on this data, the authors concluded that age-related changes in the ratio between LT-HSCs and ST-HSCs in bulkHSCs cause myeloid-biased hematopoiesis rather than an increase in myeloid gene expression in the aged bulk-HSCs.

      Comment #1-5: Some data are too weak to fully support their claims. The authors claimed that age-associated extramedullary changes are the main driver of myeloid-biased hematopoiesis based on no major differences in progenitor populations upon transplantation of 10 young HSCs into young or old recipient mice (Figure 7F) and relatively low donor-derived cells in thymus and spleen in aged recipient mice (Figure 7G-J). However, they used selected mice to calculate the progenitor populations in recipient mice (8 out of 17 from young recipients denoted by * and 8 out of 10 from aged recipients denoted by * in Figure 7C). In addition, they calculated the progenitor populations as frequency in c-kit positive cells. Given that they transplanted 10 LT-HSCs into "sub-lethally" irradiated mice and 8.7 Gy irradiation can have different effects on bone marrow clearance in young vs old mice, it is not clear whether this data is reliable enough to support their claims. The same concern applies to the data Figure 7G-J. Authors need to provide alternative data to support their claims.

      Response #1-5: Thank you for useful comments. Our claim regarding Fig. 7 is that age-associated extramedullary changes are merely additional drivers for myeloid-biased hematopoiesis are not the main drivers. But we will address the issues pointed out.

      Regarding the reason for analyzing the asterisk mice

      We performed two independent experiments for Fig. 7. In the first experiment, we planned to analyze the BM of recipients 16 weeks after transplantation. However, as shown in Fig. 7B, many of the aged mice died before 16 weeks. Therefore, we decided to examine the BM of the recipient mice at 12 weeks in the second experiment. Below are the peripheral blood results 11-12 weeks after transplantation for the mice used in the second experiment.

      Author response image 1.

      For the second experiment, we analyzed the BM of all eight all eight aged recipients. Then, we selected the same number of young recipients for analysis to ensure that the donor myeloid output would be comparable to that of the entire young group. Indeed, the donor myeloid lineage output of the selected mice was 28.1 ± 22.9%, closely matching the 23.5 ± 23.3% (p = 0.68) observed in the entire young recipient population. 

      That being said, as the reviewer pointed out, it is considerable that the BM, thymus, and spleen of all mice were not analyzed. Hence, we have added the following sentences:

      [P14, L327] We performed BM analysis for the mice denoted by † in Figure 7C because many of the aged mice had died before the analysis.

      [P15, L338] The thymus and spleen analyses were also performed on the mice denoted by † in Figure 7C.

      Regarding the reason for 8.7 Gy.

      Thank you for your question about whether 8.7 Gy is myeloablative. In our previous report1, we demonstrated that none of the mice subjected to pre-treatment with 8.7 Gy could survive when non-LKS cells were transplanted, suggesting that 8.7 Gy is enough to be myeloablative with the radiation equipment at our facility.

      Author response image 2.

      Reference

      (1)  Nishi K, Sakamaki T, Sadaoka K, Fujii M, Takaori-Kondo A, Chen JY, et al. Identification of the minimum requirements for successful haematopoietic stem cell transplantation. Br J Haematol. 2022;196(3):711–23. 

      Regarding the normalization of c-Kit in Figure 7F.  

      Firstly, as shown in Supplemental Figures S1B and S1C, we analyze the upstream (HSC, MPP, Flk2+) and downstream (CLP, MEP, CMP, GMP) fractions in different panels. Therefore, normalization is required to assess the differentiation of HSCs from upstream to downstream. Additionally, the reason for normalizing by c-Kit+ is that the bone marrow analysis was performed after enrichment using the Anti-c-Kit antibody for both upstream and downstream fractions. Based on this, we calculated the progenitor populations as a frequency within the c-Kit positive cells.

      Next, the results of normalizing the whole bone marrow cells (live cells) are shown below. 

      Author response image 3.

      Similar to the results of normalizing c-Kit+ cells, myeloid progenitors remained unchanged, including a statistically significant decrease in CMP in aged mice. Additionally, there were no significant differences in CLP. In conclusion, we obtained similar results between the normalization with c-Kit and the normalization with whole bone marrow cells (live cells).

      However, as the reviewer pointed out, it is necessary to explain the reason for normalization with c-Kit. Therefore, we will add the following description.

      [P21, L502] For the combined analysis of the upstream (HSC, MPP, Flk2+) and downstream (CLP, MEP, CMP, GMP) fractions in Figures 1B and 7F, we normalized by c-Kit+ cells because we performed a c-Kit enrichment for the bone marrow analysis.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary:  

      Nishi et al, investigate the well-known and previously described phenomenon of ageassociated myeloid-biased hematopoiesis. Using a previously established HoxB5mCherry mouse model, they used HoxB5+ and HoxB5- HSCs to discriminate cells with long-term (LTHSCs) and short-term (ST-HSCs) reconstitution potential and compared these populations to immunophenotypically defined 'bulk HSCs' that consists of a mixture of LT-HSC and STHSCs. They then isolated these HSC populations from young and aged mice to test their function and myeloid bias in non-competitive and competitive transplants into young and aged recipients. Based on quantification of hematopoietic cell frequencies in the bone marrow, peripheral blood, and in some experiments the spleen and thymus, the authors argue against the currently held belief that myeloid-biased HSCs expand with age. 

      Comment #2-1: While aspects of their work are fascinating and might have merit, several issues weaken the overall strength of the arguments and interpretation. Multiple experiments were done with a very low number of recipient mice, showed very large standard deviations, and had no statistically detectable difference between experimental groups. While the authors conclude that these experimental groups are not different, the displayed results seem too variable to conclude anything with certainty. The sensitivity of the performed experiments (e.g. Figure 3; Figure 6C, D) is too low to detect even reasonably strong differences between experimental groups and is thus inadequate to support the author's claims. This weakness of the study is not acknowledged in the text and is also not discussed. To support their conclusions the authors need to provide higher n-numbers and provide a detailed power analysis of the transplants in the methods section.

      Response #2-1: Thank you for your important remarks. The power analysis for this experiment shows that power = 0.319, suggesting that more number may be needed. On the other hand, our method for determining the sample size in Figure 3 is as follows:

      (1) First, we checked whether myeloid biased change is detected in the bulk-HSC fraction (Figure S3). The results showed that the difference in myeloid output at 16 weeks after transplantation was statistically significant (young vs. aged = 7.2 ± 8.9 vs. 42.1 ± 35.5%, p = 0.01), even though n = 10.

      (2) Next, myeloid biased HSCs have been reported to be a fraction with high self-renewal ability (2004, Blood). If myeloid biased HSCs increase with aging, the increase in myeloid biased HSCs in LT-HSC fraction would be detected with higher sensitivity than in the bulk-HSC fraction used in Figure S3.

      (3) However, there was no difference not only in p-values but also in the mean itself, young vs aged = 51.4±31.5% vs 47.4±39.0%, p = 0.82, even though n = 8 in Figure 3. Since there was no difference in the mean itself, it is highly likely that no difference will be detected even if n is further increased.

      Regarding Figure 6, we obtained a statistically significant difference and consider the sample size to be sufficient. 

      In addition, we have performed various functional experiments (Figures 2, 5, 6 and S6), and have obtained consistent results that expansion of myeloid biased HSCs does not occur with aging in Hoxb5+HSCs fraction. Based on the above, we conclude that the LT-HSC fraction does not differ in myeloid differentiation potential with aging.

      Comment #2-2: As the authors attempt to challenge the current model of the age-associated expansion of myeloid-biased HSCs (which has been observed and reproduced by many different groups), ideally additional strong evidence in the form of single-cell transplants is provided.

      Response #2-2: Thank you for the comments. As the reviewer pointed out, we hope we could reconfirm our results using single-cell level technology in the future.

      On the other hand, we have reported that the ratio of myeloid to lymphoid cells in the peripheral blood changes when the number of HSCs transplanted, or the number of supporting cells transplanted with HSCs, is varied1-2. Therefore, single-cell transplant data need to be interpreted very carefully to determine differentiation potential.

      From this viewpoint, future experiments will combine the Hoxb5 reporter system with a lineage tracing system that can track HSCs at the single-cell level over time. This approach will investigate changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their subsequent differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells. We have reflected this comment by adding the following sentences in the manuscript.

      [P19, L451] In contrast, our findings should be considered in light of some limitations. In this report, we primarily performed ten to twenty cell transplantation assays. Therefore, the current theory should be revalidated using single-cell technology with lineage tracing system3-4. This approach will investigate changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their subsequent differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells. 

      References

      (1) Nishi K, Sakamaki T, Sadaoka K, Fujii M, Takaori-Kondo A, Chen JY, et al. Identification of the minimum requirements for successful haematopoietic stem cell transplantation. Br J Haematol. 2022;196(3):711–23. 

      (2) Sakamaki T, Kao KS, Nishi K, Chen JY, Sadaoka K, Fujii M, et al. Hoxb5 defines the heterogeneity of self-renewal capacity in the hematopoietic stem cell compartment. Biochem Biophys Res Commun [Internet]. 2021;539:34–41. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbrc.2020.12.077

      (3) Yamamoto R, Wilkinson AC, Ooehara J, Lan X, Lai CY, Nakauchi Y, et al. LargeScale Clonal Analysis Resolves Aging of the Mouse Hematopoietic Stem Cell Compartment. Cell Stem Cell [Internet]. 2018;22(4):600-607.e4. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.stem.2018.03.013

      (4) Rodriguez-Fraticelli AE, Weinreb C, Wang SW, Migueles RP, Jankovic M, Usart M, et al. Single-cell lineage tracing unveils a role for TCF15 in haematopoiesis. Nature [Internet]. 2020;583(7817):585–9. Available from: http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2503-6

      Comment #2-3: It is also unclear why the authors believe that the observed reduction of ST-HSCs relative to LT-HSCs explains the myeloid-biased phenotype observed in the peripheral blood. This point seems counterintuitive and requires further explanation.

      Response #2-3: Thank you for your comment. We apologize for the insufficient explanation. Our data, as shown in Figures 3 and 4, demonstrate that the differentiation potential of LT-HSCs remains unchanged with age. Therefore, rather than suggesting that an increase in LT-HSCs with a consistent differentiation capacity leads to myeloid-biased hematopoiesis, it seems more accurate to highlight that the relative decrease in the proportion of ST-HSCs, which remain in peripheral blood as lymphocytes, leads to a relative increase in myeloid cells in peripheral blood and thus causes myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.

      However, if we focus on the increase in the ratio of LT-HSCs, it is also plausible to explain that “with aging, the proportion of LT-HSCs capable of long-term myeloid hematopoiesis increases. As a result, from 16 weeks after transplantation, the influence of LT-HSCs maintaining the long-term ability to produce myeloid cells becomes relatively more significant, leading to an increase in the ratio of myeloid cells in the peripheral blood and causing myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.”

      Comment #2-4: Based on my understanding of the presented data, the authors argue that myeloid-biased HSCs do not exist, as<br /> a) they detect no difference between young/aged HSCs after transplant (mind low n-numbers and large std!); b) myeloid progenitors downstream of HSCs only show minor or no changes in frequency and c) aged LT-HSCs do not outperform young LT-HSC in myeloid output LT-HScs in competitive transplants (mind low n-numbers and large std!).

      Response #2-4: We appreciate the comments. As mentioned above, we will correct the manuscript regarding the sample size.

      Regarding the interpreting of the lack of increase in the percentage of myeloid progenitor cells in the bone marrow with age, it is instead possible that various confounding factors, such as differentiation shortcuts or changes in the microenviroment, are involved.

      However, even when aged LT-HSCs and young LT-HSCs are transplanted into the same recipient mice, the timing of the appearance of different cell fractions in peripheral blood is similar (Figure 3 of this paper). Therefore, we have not obtained data suggesting that clear shortcuts exist in the differentiation process of aged HSCs into neutrophils or monocytes. Additionally, it is currently consensually accepted that myeloid cells, including neutrophils and monocytes, differentiate from GMPs1. Since there is no changes in the proportion of GMPs in the bone marrow with age, we concluded that the differentiation potential into myeloid cells remains consistent with aging.

      Reference

      (1) Akashi K and others, ‘A Clonogenic Common Myeloid Progenitor That Gives Rise to All Myeloid Lineages’, Nature, 404.6774 (2000), 193–97.

      Strengths: 

      The authors present an interesting observation and offer an alternative explanation of the origins of aged-associated myeloid-biased hematopoiesis. Their data regarding the role of the microenvironment in the spleen and thymus appears to be convincing. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Comment #2-5: "Then, we found that the myeloid lineage proportions from young and aged LT-HSCs were nearly comparable during the observation period after transplantation (Figure 3, B and C)."<br /> Given the large standard deviation and low n-numbers, the power of the analysis to detect differences between experimental groups is very low. Experimental groups with too large standard deviations (as displayed here) are difficult to interpret and might be inconclusive. The absence of clearly detectable differences between young and aged transplanted HSCs could thus simply be a false-negative result. The shown experimental results hence do not provide strong evidence for the author's interpretation of the data. The authors should add additional transplants and include a detailed power analysis to be able to detect differences between experimental groups with reasonable sensitivity.

      Response #2-5: Thank you for providing these insights. Regarding the sample size, we have addressed this in Response #2-1.

      Comment #2-6: Line 293: "Based on these findings, we concluded that myeloid-biased hematopoiesis observed following transplantation of aged HSCs was caused by a relative decrease in ST-HSC in the bulk-HSC compartment in aged mice rather than the selective expansion of myeloid-biased HSC clones."<br /> Couldn't that also be explained by an increase in myeloid-biased HSCs, as repeatedly reported and seen in the expansion of CD150+ HSCs? It is not intuitively clear why a reduction of ST-HSCs clones would lead to a myeloid bias. The author should try to explain more clearly where they believe the increased number of myeloid cells comes from. What is the source of myeloid cells if the authors believe they are not derived from the expanded population of myeloid-biased HSCs?

      Response #2-6: Thank you for pointing this out. We apologize for the insufficient explanation. We will explain using Figure 8 from the paper.

      First, our data show that LT-HSCs maintain their differentiation capacity with age, while ST-HSCs lose their self-renewal capacity earlier, so that only long-lived memory lymphocytes remain in the peripheral blood after the loss of self-renewal capacity in ST-HSCs (Figure 8, upper panel). In mouse bone marrow, the proportion of LT-HSCs increases with age, while the proportion of STHSCs relatively decreases (Figure 8, lower panel and Figure S5). 

      Our data show that merely reproducing the ratio of LT-HSCs to ST-HSCs observed in aged mice using young LT-HSCs and ST-HSCs can replicate myeloid-biased hematopoiesis. This suggests that the increase in LT-HSC and the relative decrease in ST-HSC within the HSC compartment with aging are likely to contribute to myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.

      As mentioned earlier, since the differentiation capacity of LT-HSCs remain unchaged with age, it seems more accurate to describe that the relative decrease in the proportion of STHSCs, which retain long-lived memory lymphocytes in peripheral blood, leads to a relative increase in myeloid cells in peripheral blood and thus causes myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.

      However, focusing on the increase in the proportion of LT-HSCs, it is also possible to explain that “with aging, the proportion of LT-HSCs capable of long-term myeloid hematopoiesis increases. As a result, from 16 weeks after transplantation, the influence of LT-HSCs maintaining the long-term ability to produce myeloid cells becomes relatively more significant, leading to an increase in the ratio of myeloid cells in the peripheral blood and causing myeloid-biased hematopoiesis.”

      Reviewer #3:

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Nishi et al. propose a new model to explain the previously reported myeloid-biased hematopoiesis associated with aging. Traditionally, this phenotype has been explained by the expansion of myeloid-biased hematopoietic stem cell (HSC) clones during aging. Here, the authors question this idea and show how their Hoxb5 reporter model can discriminate long-term (LT) and short-term (ST) HSC and characterized their lineage output after transplant. From these analyses, the authors conclude that changes during aging in the LT/ST HSC proportion explain the myeloid bias observed. 

      Although the topic is appropriate and the new model provides a new way to think about lineage-biased output observed in multiple hematopoietic contexts, some of the experimental design choices, as well as some of the conclusions drawn from the results could be substantially improved. Also, they do not propose any potential mechanism to explain this process, which reduces the potential impact and novelty of the study. Specific concerns are outlined below. 

      Major 

      Comment #3-1: As a general comment, there are experimental details that are either missing or not clear. The main one is related to transplantation assays. What is the irradiation dose? The Methods sections indicates "recipient mice were lethally irradiated with single doses of 8.7 or 9.1 Gy". The only experimental schematic indicating the irradiation dose is Figure 7A, which uses 8.7 Gy. Also, although there is not a "standard", 11 Gy split in two doses is typically considered lethal irradiation, while 9.5 Gy is considered sublethal.

      Response #3-1: We agree with reviewer’s assessment about whether 8.7 Gy is myeloablative. To confirm this, it would typically be necessary to irradiate mice with different dose and observe if they do not survive. However, such an experiment is not ethically permissible at our facility. Instead, in our previous report1, we demonstrated that none of the mice subjected to pretreatment with 8.7 Gy could survive when non-LKS cells were transplanted, suggesting that

      8.7 Gy is enough to be myeloablative with the radiation equipment at our facility.

      Reference

      (1) Nishi K, Sakamaki T, Sadaoka K, Fujii M, Takaori-Kondo A, Chen JY, et al. Identification of the minimum requirements for successful haematopoietic stem cell transplantation. Br J Haematol. 2022;196(3):711–23. 

      Comment #3-2:  Is there any reason for these lower doses? Same question for giving a single dose and for performing irradiation a day before transplant. 

      Response #3-2: We appreciate the reviewer for these important comments. Although the 8.7 Gy dose used at our facility is lower than in other reports, we selected this dose to maintain consistency with our previous experiments. For the same reason, we used a single irradiation, not split.  Regarding the timing of irradiation, the method section specifies that irradiation timing is 12-24 hours prior to transplantation. In most experiments, irradiation is performed at 12 hours. However, due to experimental progress, there were occasional instances where nearly 24 hours elapsed between irradiation and transplantation. We provide this information to ensure accuracy.

      Comment #3-3: The manuscript would benefit from the inclusion of references to recent studies discussing hematopoietic biases and differentiation dynamics at a single-cell level (e.g., Yamamoto et. al 2018; Rodriguez-Fraticelli et al., 2020). Also, when discussing the discrepancy between studies claiming different biases within the HSC pool, the authors mentioned that Montecino-Rodriguez et al. 2019 showed preserved lymphoid potential with age. It would be good to acknowledge that this study used busulfan as the conditioning method instead of irradiation.

      Response #3-3: We agree with this comment and have incorporated this suggestion into the manuscript

      [P19, L451] In contrast, our findings should be considered in light of some limitations. In this report, we primarily performed ten to twenty cell transplantation assays. Therefore, the current theory should be revalidated using single-cell technology with lineage tracing system1-2. This approach will investigate changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their subsequent differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells. Additionally, in this report we purified LT-HSCs by Hoxb5 reporter system. In contrast, various LT-HSC markers have been previously reported2-3.  Therefore, it is ideal to validate our findings using other LT-HSC makers.

      [P16, L368] Other studies suggest that blockage of lymphoid hematopoiesis in aged mice results in myeloid-skewed hematopoiesis through alternative mechanisms. However, this result should be interpreted carefully, since Busulfan was used for myeloablative treatment in this study4.   

      References

      (1) Yamamoto R, Wilkinson AC, Ooehara J, Lan X, Lai CY, Nakauchi Y, et al. LargeScale Clonal Analysis Resolves Aging of the Mouse Hematopoietic Stem Cell Compartment. Cell Stem Cell [Internet]. 2018;22(4):600-607.e4. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.stem.2018.03.013

      (2) Rodriguez-Fraticelli AE, Weinreb C, Wang SW, Migueles RP, Jankovic M, Usart M, et al. Single-cell lineage tracing unveils a role for TCF15 in haematopoiesis. Nature [Internet]. 2020;583(7817):585–9. Available from: http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2503-6

      (3) Sanjuan-Pla A, Macaulay IC, Jensen CT, Woll PS, Luis TC, Mead A, et al. Plateletbiased stem cells reside at the apex of the haematopoietic stem-cell hierarchy. Nature. 2013;502(7470):232–6. 

      (4) Montecino-Rodriguez E, Kong Y, Casero D, Rouault A, Dorshkind K, Pioli PD. Lymphoid-Biased Hematopoietic Stem Cells Are Maintained with Age and Efficiently Generate Lymphoid Progeny. Stem Cell Reports. 2019 Mar 5;12(3):584–96. 

      Comment #3-4: When representing the contribution to PB from transplanted cells, the authors show the % of each lineage within the donor-derived cells (Figures 3B-C, 5B, 6B-D, 7C-E, and S3 B-C). To have a better picture of total donor contribution, total PB and BM chimerism should be included for each transplantation assay. Also, for Figures 2C-D and Figures S2A-B, do the graphs represent 100% of the PB cells? Are there any radioresistant cells?

      Response #3-4: Thank you for highlighting this point. Indeed, donor contribution to total peripheral blood (PB) is important information. We have included the donor contribution data for each figure above mentioned.

      Author response image 4.

      In Figure 2C-D and Figure S2A-B, the percentage of donor chimerism in PB was defined as the percentage of CD45.1-CD45.2+ cells among total CD45.1-CD45.2+ and CD45.1+CD45.2+ cells as described in method section.

      Comment #3-5: For BM progenitor frequencies, the authors present the data as the frequency of cKit+ cells. This normalization might be misleading as changes in the proportion of cKit+ between the different experimental conditions could mask differences in these BM subpopulations. Representing this data as the frequency of BM single cells or as absolute numbers (e.g., per femur) would be valuable.

      Response #3-5: We appreciate the reviewer's comment on this point. 

      Firstly, as shown in Supplemental Figures S1B and S1C, we analyze the upstream (HSC, MPP, Flk2+) and downstream (CLP, MEP, CMP, GMP) fractions in different panels. Therefore, normalization is required to assess the differentiation of HSCs from upstream to downstream. Additionally, the reason for normalizing by c-Kit+ is that the bone marrow analysis was performed after enrichment using the Anti-c-Kit antibody for both upstream and downstream fractions. Based on this, we calculated the progenitor populations as a frequency within the c-Kit positive cells. Next, the results of normalizing the whole bone marrow cells (live cells) are shown in Author response image 2. 

      Similar to the results of normalizing c-Kit+ cells, myeloid progenitors remained unchanged, including a statistically significant decrease in CMP in aged mice. Additionally, there were no significant differences in CLP. In conclusion, similar results were obtained between the normalization with c-Kit and the normalization with whole bone marrow cells (live cells).

      However, as the reviewer pointed out, it is necessary to explain the reason for normalization with c-Kit. Therefore, we will add the following description.

      [P21, L502] For the combined analysis of the upstream (HSC, MPP, Flk2+) and downstream (CLP, MEP, CMP, GMP) fractions in Figures 1B and 7F, we normalized by c-Kit+ cells because we performed a c-Kit enrichment for the bone marrow analysis.

      Comment #3-6: Regarding Figure 1B, the authors argue that if myeloid-biased HSC clones increase with age, they should see increased frequency of all components of the myeloid differentiation pathway (CMP, GMP, MEP). This would imply that their results (no changes or reduction in these myeloid subpopulations) suggest the absence of myeloid-biased HSC clones expansion with age. This reviewer believes that differentiation dynamics within the hematopoietic hierarchy can be more complex than a cascade of sequential and compartmentalized events (e.g., accelerated differentiation at the CMP level could cause exhaustion of this compartment and explain its reduction with age and why GMP and MEP are unchanged) and these conclusions should be considered more carefully.

      Response #3-6: We wish to thank the reviewer for this comment. We agree with that the differentiation pathway may not be a cascade of sequential events but could be influenced by various factors such as extrinsic factors.

      In Figure 1B, we hypothesized that there may be other mechanisms causing myeloidbiased hematopoiesis besides the age-related increase in myeloid-biased HSCs, given that the percentage of myeloid progenitor cells in the bone marrow did not change with age. However, we do not discuss the presence or absence of myeloid-biased HSCs based on the data in Figure 1B. 

      Our newly proposed theories—that the differentiation capacity of LT-HSCs remains unchanged with age and that age-related myeloid-biased hematopoiesis is due to changes in the ratio of LT-HSCs to ST-HSCs—are based on functional experiment results. As the reviewer pointed out, to discuss the presence or absence of myeloid-biased HSCs based on the data in Figure 1B, it is necessary to apply a system that can track HSC differentiation at single-cell level. The technology would clarify changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells. The authors believe that those single-cell technologies will be beneficial in understanding the differentiation of HSCs. Based on the above, the following statement has been added to the text.

      [P19, L451] In contrast, our findings should be considered in light of some limitations. In this report, we primarily performed ten to twenty cell transplantation assays. Therefore, the current theory should be revalidated using single-cell technology with lineage tracing system1-2. This approach will investigate changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their subsequent differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells. 

      References

      (1) Yamamoto R, Wilkinson AC, Ooehara J, Lan X, Lai CY, Nakauchi Y, et al. LargeScale Clonal Analysis Resolves Aging of the Mouse Hematopoietic Stem Cell Compartment. Cell Stem Cell [Internet]. 2018;22(4):600-607.e4. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.stem.2018.03.013

      (2) Rodriguez-Fraticelli AE, Weinreb C, Wang SW, Migueles RP, Jankovic M, Usart M, et al. Single-cell lineage tracing unveils a role for TCF15 in haematopoiesis. Nature [Internet]. 2020;583(7817):585–9. Available from: http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2503-6

      Comment #3-7: Within the few recipients showing good donor engraftment in Figure 2C, there is a big proportion of T cells that are "amplified" upon secondary transplantation (Figure 2D). Is this expected?

      Response #3-7: We wish to express our deep appreciation to the reviewer for insightful comment on this point. As the reviewers pointed out, in Figure 2D, a few recipients show a very high percentage of T cells. The authors had the same question and considered this phenomenon as follows:

      (1) One reason for the very high percentage of T cells is that we used 1 x 107 whole bone marrow cells in the secondary transplantation. Consequently, the donor cells in the secondary transplantation contained more T-cell progenitor cells, leading to a greater increase in T cells compared to the primary transplantation.

      (2) We also consider that this phenomenon may be influenced by the reduced selfrenewal capacity of aged LT-HSCs, resulting in decreased sustained production of myeloid cells in the secondary recipient mice. As a result, long-lived memory-type lymphocytes may preferentially remain in the peripheral blood, increasing the percentage of T cells in the secondary recipient mice.

      We have discussed our hypothesis regarding this interesting phenomenon. To further clarify the characteristics of the increased T-cell count in the secondary recipient mice, we will analyze TCR clonality and diversity in the future.

      Comment #3-8: Do the authors have any explanation for the high level of variability within the recipients of Hoxb5+ cells in Figure 2C?

      Response #3-8: We appreciate the reviewer's comment on this point. As noted in our previous report, transplantation of a sufficient number of HSCs results in stable donor chimerism, whereas a small number of HSCs leads to increased variability in donor chimerism1. Additionally, other studies have observed high variability when fewer than 10 HSCs are transplanted2-3. Based on this evidence, we consider that the transplantation of a small number of cells (10 cells) is the primary cause of the high level of variability observed.

      References

      (1) Nishi K, Sakamaki T, Sadaoka K, Fujii M, Takaori-Kondo A, Chen JY, et al. Identification of the minimum requirements for successful haematopoietic stem cell transplantation. Br J Haematol. 2022;196(3):711–23. 

      (2) Dykstra B, Olthof S, Schreuder J, Ritsema M, Haan G De. Clonal analysis reveals multiple functional defects of aged murine hematopoietic stem cells. J Exp Med. 2011 Dec 19;208(13):2691–703. 

      (3) Yamamoto R, Wilkinson AC, Ooehara J, Lan X, Lai CY, Nakauchi Y, et al. LargeScale Clonal Analysis Resolves Aging of the Mouse Hematopoietic Stem Cell Compartment. Cell Stem Cell [Internet]. 2018;22(4):600-607.e4. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.stem.2018.03.013

      Comment #3-9: Can the results from Figure 2E be interpreted as Hoxb5+ cells having a myeloid bias? (differences are more obvious/significant in neutrophils and monocytes).

      Response #3-9: Thank you for your insightful comments. Firstly, we have not obtained any data indicating that young LT-HSCs are myeloid biased HSCs so far. Therefore, we classify young LT-HSCs as balanced HSCs1. Secondly, our current data demonstrate no significant difference in differentiation capacity between young and aged LT-HSCs (see Figure 3 in this paper). Based on these findings, we interpret that aged LT-HSCs are balanced HSCs, similar to young LT-HSCs.

      Reference

      (1)  Chen JY, Miyanishi M, Wang SK, Yamazaki S, Sinha R, Kao KS, et al. Hoxb5 marks long-term haematopoietic stem cells and reveals a homogenous perivascular niche. Nature. 2016 Feb 10;530(7589):223–7. 

      Comment #3-10: Is Figure 2G considering all primary recipients or only the ones that were used for secondary transplants? The second option would be a fairer comparison.

      Response #3-10: We appreciate the reviewer's comment on this point. We considered all primary recipients in Figure 2G to ensure a fair comparison, given the influence of various factors such as the radiosensitivity of individual recipient mice1. Comparing only the primary recipients used in the secondary transplantation would result in n = 3 (primary recipient) vs. n = 12 (secondary recipient). Including all primary recipients yields n = 11 vs. n = 12, providing a more balanced comparison. Therefore, we analyzed all primary recipient mice to ensure the reliability of our results.

      Reference

      (1) Duran-Struuck R, Dysko RC. Principles of bone marrow transplantation (BMT): providing optimal veterinary and husbandry care to irradiated mice in BMT studies. J Am Assoc Lab Anim Sci. 2009; 48:11–22

      Comment #3-11: When discussing the transcriptional profile of young and aged HSCs, the authors claim that genes linked to myeloid differentiation remain unchanged in the LT-HSC fraction while there are significant changes in the ST-HSCs. However, 2 out of the 4 genes shown in Figure S4B show ratios higher than 1 in LT-HSCs.

      Response #3-11: Thank you for highlighting this important point. As the reviewer pointed out, when we analyze the expression of myeloid-related genes, some genes are elevated in aged LT-HSCs compared to young LT-HSCs. However, the GSEA analysis using myeloid-related gene sets, which include several hundred genes, shows no significant difference between young and aged LT-HSCs (see Figure S4C in this paper). Furthermore, functional experiments using the co-transplantation system show no difference in differentiation capacity between young and aged LT-HSCs (see Figure 3 in this paper). Based on these results, we conclude that LT-HSCs do not exhibit any change in differentiation capacity with aging.

      Comment #3-12: When determining the lymphoid bias in ST-HSCs, the authors focus on the T-cell subtype, not considering any other any other lymphoid population. Could the authors explain this?

      Response #3-12: We thank the reviewer for this comment. We conducted the experiments in Figure 5 to demonstrate that the hematopoiesis observed 16 weeks post-transplantation—when STHSCs are believed to lose their self-renewal capacity—is not due to de novo production of T cells from ST-HSCs. Instead, it is attributed to long-lived memory cells which can persistently remain in the peripheral blood.

      As noted by the reviewer, various memory cell types are present in peripheral blood. Our analysis focused on memory T cells due to the broad consensus on memory T cell markers1. 

      Our findings show that transplanted Hoxb5- HSCs do not continuously produce lymphoid cells, unlike lymphoid-biased HSCs. Rather, the loss of self-renewal capacity in Hoxb5- HSCs makes the presence of long-lived memory cells in the peripheral blood more apparent.

      Reference

      (1)  Yenyuwadee S, Sanchez-Trincado Lopez JL, Shah R, Rosato PC, Boussiotis VA. The evolving role of tissue-resident memory T cells in infections and cancer. Sci Adv. 2022;8(33). 

      Comment #3-13: Based on the reduced frequency of donor cells in the spleen and thymus, the authors conclude "the process of lymphoid lineage differentiation was impaired in the spleens and thymi of aged mice compared to young mice". An alternative explanation could be that differentiated cells do not successfully migrate from the bone marrow to these secondary lymphoid organs. Please consider this possibility when discussing the data.

      Response #3-13: We strongly appreciate the reviewer's comment on this point. In accordance with the reviewer's comment, we have incorporated this suggestion into our manuscript.

      [P15, L343] These results indicate that the process of lymphoid lineage differentiation is impaired in the spleens and thymi of aged mice compared to young mice, or that differentiating cells in the bone marrow do not successfully migrate into these secondary lymphoid organs. These factors contribute to the enhanced myeloid-biased hematopoiesis in peripheral blood due to a decrease in de novo lymphocyte production.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Recommendation #2-1: To support their conclusions the authors need to provide higher n-numbers and provide a detailed power analysis of the transplants in the methods section.

      Response to Recommendation #2-1: Thank you for your important remarks. The power analysis for this experiment shows that power = 0.319, suggesting that more number may be needed. On the other hand, our method for determining the sample size in Figure 3 is as follows:

      (1) First, we checked whether myeloid biased change is detected in the bulk-HSC fraction (Figure S3). The results showed that the difference in myeloid output at 16 weeks after transplantation was statistically significant (young vs. aged = 7.2 ± 8.9 vs. 42.1 ± 35.5%, p = 0.01), even though n = 10.

      (2) Next, myeloid biased HSCs have been reported to be a fraction with high self-renewal ability (2004, Blood). If myeloid biased HSCs increase with aging, the increase in myeloid biased HSCs in LT-HSC fraction would be detected with higher sensitivity than in the bulk-HSC fraction used in Figure S3.

      (3) However, there was no difference not only in p-values but also in the mean itself, young vs aged = 51.4±31.5% vs 47.4±39.0%, p = 0.82, even though n = 8 in Figure 3. Since there was no difference in the mean itself, it is highly likely that no difference will be detected even if n is further increased.

      Regarding Figure S3, 5, 6, S6 and 7, we obtained a statistically significant difference and consider the sample size to be sufficient. 

      Recommendation #2-2: As the authors attempt to challenge the current model of the age-associated expansion of myeloid-biased HSCs (which has been observed and reproduced by many different groups), ideally additional strong evidence in the form of single-cell transplants is provided.

      Response to Recommendation #2-2: Thank you for the comments. As the reviewer pointed out, we hope we could reconfirm our results using single-cell level technology in the future.

      On the other hand, we have reported that the ratio of myeloid to lymphoid cells in the peripheral blood changes when the number of HSCs transplanted, or the number of supporting cells transplanted with HSCs, is varied1-2. Therefore, single-cell transplant data need to be interpreted very carefully to determine differentiation potential.

      From this viewpoint, future experiments will combine the Hoxb5 reporter system with a lineage tracing system that can track HSCs at the single-cell level over time. This approach will investigate changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their subsequent differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells. We have reflected this comment by adding the following sentences in the manuscript.

      [P19, L451] In contrast, our findings should be considered in light of some limitations. In this report, we primarily performed ten to twenty transplantation assays. Therefore, the current theory should be revalidated using single-cell technology. This approach will investigate changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their subsequent differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells.

      References

      (1) Nishi K, Sakamaki T, Sadaoka K, Fujii M, Takaori-Kondo A, Chen JY, et al. Identification of the minimum requirements for successful haematopoietic stem cell transplantation. Br J Haematol. 2022;196(3):711–23. 

      (2) Sakamaki T, Kao KS, Nishi K, Chen JY, Sadaoka K, Fujii M, et al. Hoxb5 defines the heterogeneity of self-renewal capacity in the hematopoietic stem cell compartment. Biochem Biophys Res Commun [Internet]. 2021;539:34–41. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbrc.2020.12.077

      Minor points:

      Recommendation #2-3: Figure 1: "Comprehensive analysis of hematopoietic alternations with age shows a discrepancy of age-associated changes between peripheral blood and bone marrow"

      [Comment to the authors]: For clarity, the nature of the discrepancy should be stated clearly.

      Response to Recommendation #2-3: Thank you for this important comment. Following the reviewer’s recommendation, we have revised the manuscript as follows

      [P7, L139] Our analysis of hematopoietic alternations with age revealed that age-associated transition patterns of immunophenotypically defined HSC and CMP in BM were not paralleled with myeloid cell in PB (Fig. 1 C).

      Recommendation #2-4: Figure 1B "(B) Average frequency of immunophenotypically defined HSC and progenitor cells in BM of 2-3-month mice (n = 6), 6-month mice (n = 6), 12-13-month mice (n = 6), {greater than or equal to} 23-month mice (n = 7).

      [Comment to the authors]: It should be stated in the figure and legend that the values are normalized to the 2-3-month-old mice.

      Response to Recommendation #2-4: Thank you for this comment. Figure 1B presents the actual measured values of each fraction in c-Kit positive cells in the bone marrow, without any normalization.

      Recommendation #2-5: "We 127 found that the frequency of immunophenotypically defined HSC in BM rapidly increased 128 up to the age of 12 months. After the age, they remained plateaued throughout the 129 observation period (Fig. 1 B)."

      [Comment to the authors]: The evidence for a 'plateau', where HSC numbers don't change after 12 months is weak. It appears that the numbers increase continuously (although less steep) after 12 months. I thus recommend adjusting the wording to better reflect the data.

      Response to Recommendation #2-5: We thank the reviewer for the comments above and have incorporated these suggestions in our revision as follows. 

      [P6, L126] We found that the frequency of immunophenotypically defined HSC in BM rapidly increased up to the age of 12 months. After the age, the rate of increase in their frequency appeared to slow down.

      Recommendation #2-6: Figure 2G: [Comment to the authors]: Please add the required statistics, please check carefully all figures for missing statistical tests.

      Response to Recommendation #2-6: Thank you for these important comments. In response, we have added the results of the significance tests for Figures 1A, 1C, 4C, and S5.

      Recommendation #2-7: "If bulk-HSCs isolated from aged mice are already enriched by myeloid-biased HSC clones, we should see more myeloid-biased phenotypes 16 weeks after primary and the secondary transplantation. However, we found that kinetics of the proportion of myeloid cells in PB were similar across primary and the secondary transplantation and that the proportion of myeloid cells gradually decreased over time (Fig. 2 G). These results suggest the following two possibilities: either myeloid-biased HSCs do not expand in the LT-HSC fraction, or the expansion of myeloid-biased clones in 2-year-old mice has already peaked."

      [Comment to the authors]: Other possible explanations include that the observed reduction in myeloid reconstitution over 16 weeks reflects the time required to return to homeostasis. In other words, it takes time until the blood system approaches a balanced output.

      Response to Recommendation #2-7: We agree with the reviewer's comment. As the reviewer pointed out, the gradual decrease in the proportion of myeloid cells over time is not related to our two hypotheses in this part of the manuscript but rather to the hematopoietic system's process of returning to a homeostatic state after transplantation. Therefore, the original sentence could be misleading, as it is part of the section discussing whether age-associated expansion of myeloid-biased HSCs is observed. Based on the above, we have revised the sentence as follows.

      [P8, L179] However, we found that kinetics of the proportion of myeloid cells in PB were similar across the primary and the secondary transplantation (Fig. 2 G). These results suggest the following two possibilities: either myeloid-biased HSCs do not expand in the LTHSC fraction, or the expansion of myeloid-biased clones in 2-year-old mice has already peaked.

      Recommendation #2-8: It is also important to consider that the transplant results are highly variable (see large standard deviation), therefore the sensitivity to detect smaller but relevant changes is low in the shown experiments. As the statistical analysis of these experiments is missing and the power seems low these results should be interpreted with caution. For instance, it appears that the secondary transplants on average produce more myeloid cells as expected and predicted by the classical clonal expansion model.

      Regarding "expansion of myeloid-biased clones in 2-year-old mice has already peaked". This is what the author suggested above. It might thus not be surprising that HSCs from 2-year-old mice show little to no increased myeloid expansion.

      Response to Recommendation #2-8: Thank you for providing these insights. The primary findings of our study are based on functional experiments presented in Figures 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7. In Figure 3, there was no significant difference between young and aged LT-HSCs, with mean values of 51.4±31.5% and 47.4±39.0%, respectively (p = 0.82). Given the lack of difference in the mean values, it is unlikely that increasing the sample size would reveal a significant change. For ethical reasons, to minimize the use of additional animals, we conclude that LT-HSCs exhibit no change in lineage output throughout life based on the data in Figure 3. Statistically significant differences observed in Figures 2, 5, 6, and 7 further support our conclusions.

      Additionally, because whole bone marrow cells were transplanted in the secondary transplantation, there may be various confounding factors beyond the differentiation potential of HSCs. Therefore, we consider that caution is necessary when evaluating the differentiation capacity of HSCs in the context of the second transplantation.

      Recommendation #2-9: Figure 7C: [Comment to the authors]: The star * indicates with analyzed BM. As stars are typically used as indicators of significance, this can be confusing for the reader. I thus suggest using another symbol.

      Response to Recommendation #2-9: We appreciate the reviewer for this comment and have incorporated the suggestion in the revised manuscript. We have decided to use † instead of the star*.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Recommendation #3.1: In Figure 1A, the authors show the frequency of PB lineages (lymphoid vs myeloid) in mice of different ages. It would be great if they could show the same data for each subpopulation including these two main categories individually (granulocytes, monocytes, B cells, T cells...).

      Response to Recommendation #3-1: We thank for this suggestion. We provide the frequency of PB lineages (granulocytes, monocytes, B cells, T cells, and NK cells) in mice of different ages.

      Author response image 5.

      Average frequency of neutrophils, monocytes, B cells, T cells, and NK cells in PB analyzed in Figure 1A. Dots show all individual mice. *P < 0.05. **P < 0.01. Data and error bars represent means ± standard deviation. 

      Recommendation #3.2: It would be great if data from young mice could be shown in parallel to the graphs in Figure 2A.

      Response to Recommendation #3-2: We thank the reviewer for the comments above and have incorporated these suggestions in Figure 2A. 

      [P34, L916] (A) Hoxb5 reporter expression in bulk-HSC, MPP, Flk2+, and Lin-Sca1-c-Kit+ populations in the 2-year-old Hoxb5-tri-mCherry mice (Upper panel) and 3-month-old Hoxb5_tri-mCherry mice (Lower panel). Values indicate the percentage of mCherry+ cells ± standard deviation in each fraction (_n = 3). 

      Recommendation #3.3: Do the authors have any explanation for the high level of variability within the recipients of Hoxb5+ cells in Figure 2C?

      Response to Recommendation #3-3: Thank you for providing these insights. As noted in our previous report, transplantation of a sufficient number of HSCs results in stable donor chimerism, whereas a small number of HSCs leads to increased variability in donor chimerism1. Additionally, other studies have observed high variability when fewer than 10 HSCs are transplanted2-3. Based on this evidence, we consider that the transplantation of a small number of cells (10 cells) is the primary cause of the high level of variability observed.

      References

      (1) Nishi K, Sakamaki T, Sadaoka K, Fujii M, Takaori-Kondo A, Chen JY, et al. Identification of the minimum requirements for successful haematopoietic stem cell transplantation. Br J Haematol. 2022;196(3):711–23. 

      (2) Dykstra B, Olthof S, Schreuder J, Ritsema M, Haan G De. Clonal analysis reveals multiple functional defects of aged murine hematopoietic stem cells. J Exp Med. 2011 Dec 19;208(13):2691–703. 

      (3) Yamamoto R, Wilkinson AC, Ooehara J, Lan X, Lai CY, Nakauchi Y, et al. LargeScale Clonal Analysis Resolves Aging of the Mouse Hematopoietic Stem Cell Compartment. Cell Stem Cell [Internet]. 2018;22(4):600-607.e4. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.stem.2018.03.013

      Recommendation #3.4: Are the differences in Figure 3D statistically significant? If yes, please add statistics. Same for Figure 4C.

      Response to Recommendation #3-4: Thank you for providing these insights. For Figure 3D, we performed an ANOVA analysis for each fraction; however, the results were not statistically significant. In contrast, for Figure 4C, we have added the results of significance tests for comparisons between Young LT-HSC vs. Young Bulk-HSC.

      Recommendation #3.5: As a general comment, although the results in this study are interesting, the use of a Hoxb5 lineage tracing mouse model would be more valuable for this purpose than the Hoxb5 reporter used here. The lineage tracing model would allow for the assessment of lineage bias without the caveats introduced by the transplantation assays.

      Response to Recommendation #3-5: We appreciate the reviewer for the important comments. Following the reviewer’s recommendation, we have revised the manuscript as follows

      [P19, L451] In contrast, our findings should be considered in light of some limitations. In this report, we primarily performed ten to twenty transplantation assays. Therefore, the current theory should be revalidated using single-cell technology with lineage tracing system1-2. This approach will investigate changes in the self-renewal capacity of individual HSCs and their subsequent differentiation into progenitor cells and peripheral blood cells. 

      References

      (1) Yamamoto R, Wilkinson AC, Ooehara J, Lan X, Lai CY, Nakauchi Y, et al. LargeScale Clonal Analysis Resolves Aging of the Mouse Hematopoietic Stem Cell Compartment. Cell Stem Cell [Internet]. 2018;22(4):600-607.e4. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.stem.2018.03.013

      (2) Rodriguez-Fraticelli AE, Weinreb C, Wang SW, Migueles RP, Jankovic M, Usart M, et al. Single-cell lineage tracing unveils a role for TCF15 in haematopoiesis. Nature [Internet]. 2020;583(7817):585–9. Available from: http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2503-6

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We would like to thank the reviewers and editors for their careful assessment and review of our article. The many detailed comments, questions and suggestions were very helpful in improving our analyses and presentation of data. In particular, our Discussion benefited enormously from the comments. 

      Below we respond in detail to every point raised. 

      We especially note that Reviewer #3’s small query on “trial where learning is defined to have occurred, we were not given the quantitative criterion operationalizing "learning" - please provide” led to deeper analyses and insights and a lengthy response.

      This analysis prompted the addition of a sentence (red) to the Abstract. 

      “Animals navigate by learning the spatial layout of their environment. We investigated spatial learning of mice in an open maze where food was hidden in one of a hundred holes. Mice leaving from a stable entrance learned to efficiently navigate to the food without the need for landmarks. We developed a quantitative framework to reveal how the mice estimate the food location based on analyses of trajectories and active hole checks. After learning, the computed “target estimation vector” (TEV) closely approximated the mice’s route and its hole check distribution. The TEV required learning both the direction and distance of the start to food vector, and our data suggests that different learning dynamics underlie these estimates. We propose that the TEV can be precisely connected to the properties of hippocampal place cells. Finally, we provide the first demonstration that, after learning the location of two food sites, the mice took a shortcut between the sites, demonstrating that they had generated a cognitive map. ”

      Note: we added, at the end of the manuscript, the legends for the Shortcut video (Video 1) and the main text figure legends; these are with a larger font and so easier to read. 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Assessment:

      This important work advances our understanding of navigation and path integration in mammals by using a clever behavioral paradigm. The paper provides compelling evidence that mice are able to create and use a cognitive map to find "short cuts" in an environment, using only the location of rewards relative to the point of entry to the environment and path integration, and need not rely on visual landmarks.

      Thank you.

      Summary:

      The authors have designed a novel experimental apparatus called the 'Hidden Food Maze (HFM)' and a beautiful suite of behavioral experiments using this apparatus to investigate the interplay between allothetic and idiothetic cues in navigation. The results presented provide a clear demonstration of the central claim of the paper, namely that mice only need a fixed start location and path integration to develop a cognitive map. The experiments and analyses conducted to test the main claim of the paper -- that the animals have formed a cognitive map -- are conclusive. While I think the results are quite interesting and sound, one issue that needs to be addressed is the framing of how landmarks are used (or not), as discussed below, although I believe this will be a straightforward issue for the authors to address.

      We have now added detailed discussion on this important point. See below.

      Strengths:

      The 90-degree rotationally symmetric design and use of 4 distal landmarks and 4 quadrants with their corresponding rotationally equivalent locations (REL) lends itself to teasing apart the influence of path integration and landmark-based navigation in a clever way. The authors use a really complete set of experiments and associated controls to show that mice can use a start location and path integration to develop a cognitive map and generate shortcut routes to new locations.

      Weaknesses:

      I have two comments. The second comment is perhaps major and would require rephrasing multiple sentences/paragraphs throughout the paper.

      (1) The data clearly indicate that in the hidden food maze (HFM) task mice did not use external visual "cue cards" to navigate, as this is clearly shown in the errors mice make when they start trials from a different start location when trained in the static entrance condition. The absence of visual landmark-guided behavior is indeed surprising, given the previous literature showing the use of distal landmarks to navigate and neural correlates of visual landmarks in hippocampal formation. While the authors briefly mention that the mice might not be using distal landmarks because of their pretraining procedure - I think it is worth highlighting this point (about the importance of landmark stability and citing relevant papers) and elaborating on it in greater detail. It is very likely that mice do not use the distal visual landmarks in this task because the pretraining of animals leads to them not identifying them as stable landmarks. For example, if they thought that each time they were introduced to the arena, it was "through the same door", then the landmarks would appear to be in arbitrary locations compared to the last time. In the same way, we as humans wouldn't use clouds or the location of people or other animate objects as trusted navigational beacons. In addition, the animals are introduced to the environment without any extra-maze landmarks that could help them resolve this ambiguity. Previous work (and what we see in our dome experiments) has shown that in environments with 'unreliable' landmarks, place cells are not controlled by landmarks - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028390898000537, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7891125/. This makes it likely that the absence of these distal visual landmarks when the animal first entered the maze ensured that the animal does not 'trust' these visual features as landmarks.

      Thank you. We have added many references and discussion exactly on this point including both direct behavioral experiments as well as discussion on the effects of landmark (in)stability of place cell encoding of “place”.  See Page 18 third paragraph.

      “An alternate factor might be the lack of reliability of distal spatial cues in predicting the food location. The mice, during pretraining trials, learned to find multiple food locations without landmarks. In the random trials, the continuous change of relative landmark location may lead the mice to not identifying them as “stable landmarks”. This view is supported by behavioral experiments that showed the importance of landmark stability for spatial learning (32-34) and that place cells are not controlled by “unreliable landmarks” (35-38). Control experiments without landmarks (Fig. S6A,B) or in the dark (Fig. S6C-F) confirmed that the mice did not need landmarks for spatial learning of the food location.”

      (2) I don't agree with the statement that 'Exogenous cues are not required for learning the food location'. There are many cues that the animal is likely using to help reduce errors in path integration. For example, the start location of the rat could act as a landmark/exogenous cue in the sense of partially correcting path integration errors. The maze has four identical entrances (90-degree rotationally symmetric). Despite this, it is entirely plausible that the animal can correct path integration errors by identifying the correct start entrance for a given trial, and indeed the distance/bearing to the others would also help triangulate one's location. Further, the overall arena geometry could help reduce PI error. For example, with a food source learned to be "near the middle" of the arena, the animal would surely not estimate the position to be near the far wall (and an interesting follow-on experiment would be to have two different-sized, but otherwise nearly identical arenas). As the rat travels away from the start location, small path integration errors are bound to accumulate, these errors could be at least partially corrected based on entrance and distal wall locations. If this process of periodically checking the location of the entrance to correct path integration errors is done every few seconds, path integration would be aided 'exogenously' to build a cognitive map. While the original claim of the paper still stands, i.e. mice can learn the location of a hidden food size when their starting point in the environment remains constant across trials. I would advise rewording portions of the paper, including the discussion throughout the paper that states claims such as "Exogenous cues are not required for learning the food location" to account for the possibility that the start and the overall arena geometry could be used as helpful exogenous cues to correct for path integration errors.

      We agree with the referee that our claim was ill-phrased. Surely the behavior of the mouse must be constrained by the arena size to some extent. To minimize potential geometric cues from the arena, we carefully analyzed many preliminary experiments (each with a unique batch of 4 mice) having the target positioned at different locations. We added a paragraph to the section “Further controls” where we explain our choice for the target position. Page 12 last paragraph; Page 13 “Arena geometry” paragraph.

      Also, following the suggestion from the reviewer, we probed whether the hole checks accumulated near the center of the arena for the random entrance mice, as a potential sign that some spatial learning is going on. In fact, neither the density of hole checks, nor the distance of the hole checks to the center of the arena change with learning: panel A below shows the probability density of finding a hole check at a given distance from the center of the arena; both trial 1 and trial 14 have very similar profiles. Panel B shows the density of hole checks near (<20cm) and far (>20cm) from the arena’s center.

      Author response image 1.

      It also doesn’t show any significant differences between trials 1 and 14.

      So even though there’s some trend (in panel A, the peak goes from 60cm to a double peak, one at 30cm away from the center, and the other still at 60cm), the distance from the center is still way too large compared to the mouse’s body size and to the average inter-hole distance (<10cm). These panels are now in the Supplementary Figure S8B.

      Finally, we enhanced the wording in our claim. We now have a new section entitled: “What cues are required for learning the food location?”. There, we systematically cover all possible cues and how they might be affected by their stability under the perturbation of maze floor rotation. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript reports interesting findings about the navigational behavior of mice. The authors have dissected this behavior in various components using a sophisticated behavioral maze and statistical analysis of the data.

      Strengths:

      The results are solid and they support the main conclusions, which will be of considerable value to many scientists.

      Thank you.

      Weaknesses:

      Figure 1: In some trials the mice seem to be doing thigmotaxis, walking along the perimeter of the maze. This is perhaps due to the fear of the open arena. But, these paths along the perimeter would significantly influence all metrics of navigation, e.g. the distance or time to reward.

      Perhaps analysis can be done that treats such behavior separately and the factors it out from the paths that are away from the perimeter.

      In Page 4, we added a small section entitled: “Pretraining trials”. Our reference was suggested by Reviewer #3 (noted as “Golani” with first author “Fonio”). Our preliminary experiments used naïve mice and they typically took greater than 2 days before they ventured into the arena center and found the single filled hole. This added unacceptable delays and the Pretraining trials greatly diminished the extensive thigmotaxis (not quantified). The “near the walls” trajectories did continue in the first learning trial (Fig. 2A, 3A) but then diminished in subsequent trials. We found no evidence that thigmotaxis (trajectories adjacent to the wall) were a separate category of trajectory. 

      Figure 1c: the color axis seems unusual. Red colors indicate less frequently visited regions (less than 25%) and white corresponds to more frequently visited places (>25%)? Why use such a binary measure instead of a graded map as commonly done?

      Thank you; you are completely correct. We have completely changed the color coding. 

      Some figures use linear scale and others use logarithmic scale. Is there a scientific justification? For example, average latency is on a log scale and average speed is on a linear scale, but both quantify the same behavior. The y-axis in panel 1-I is much wider than the data. Is there a reason for this? Or can the authors zoom into the y-axis so that the reader can discern any pattern?

      We use logarithmic scale with the purpose of displaying variables that have a wide range of variation (mainly, distance, latency, and number of hole checks, since it linearly and positively correlates with both distance and latency – see new Fig. S4B,C). For example, Latency goes from hundreds of seconds (trial 1) to just a few seconds (trial 14). Similarly, the total distance goes from hundreds of centimeters (trial 1, sometimes more than 1000cm, see answer about the 10-fold variation of distance below) to just the start-target distance (which is ~100cm). These variables vary over a few orders of magnitude. We display speed in a linear axis because it does not increase for more than one order of magnitude.

      Moreover, fitting the wide-ranged data (distance, latency, nchecks) yields smaller error in logscale [i.e., fitting log(y) vs. trial, instead of y vs. trial]. In these cases, the log-scale also helps visualizing how well the data was fitted by the curve. Thus, presenting wide-ranged data in linear scale could be misleading regarding goodness of fit.

      We now zoomed into the Y axis scale in Panels I of Fig. 2 and Fig. 3. We kept it in log-scale, but linear Y scale produces Author response image 2 for Figs. 3I and 2I, respectively.

      Author response image 2.

      Thus, we believe that the loglog-scale in these panels won’t compromise the interpretation of the phenomenon. In fact, the loglog of the static case suggests that the probability of hole checking distance increases according to a power law as the mouse approaches the target (however, we did not check this thoroughly, so we did not include this point in the discussion). Power law behavior is observed in other animals (e.g, ants: DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0009621) and is sometimes associated with a stochastic process with memory.

      1F shows no significant reduction in distance to reward. Does that mean there is no improvement with experience and all the improvement in the latency is due to increasing running speed with experience?

      Correct and in the section “Random Entrance experiments” under “Results” (Page 5) we explicitly note this point.

      “We hypothesize that the mice did not significantly reduce their distance travelled (Fig. 2A,B,F) because they had not learned the food location - the decrease in latency (Fig. 2D) was due to its increased running speed and familiarity with non-spatial task parameters.”

      Figure 3: The distance traveled was reduced by nearly 10-fold and speed increased by by about 3fold. So, the time to reach the reward should decrease by only 3 fold (t=d/v) but that too reduced by 10fold. How does one reconcile the 3fold difference between the expected and observed values?

      The traveled distance is obtained by linearly interpolating the sampled trajectory points. In other words, the software samples a discrete set of positions, for each recorded instant 𝑡. The total distance is 

      where is the Euclidean distance between two consecutively sampled points. However, the same result (within a fraction of cm error) can be obtained by integrating the sampled speed over time 𝑣! using the Simpson method

      Since Latency varies by 10-fold, it is just expected that, given 𝑑 = 𝑣𝑡, the total distance will also vary by 10-fold (since 𝑣 is constant in each time interval Δ𝑡; replacing 𝑣! in the integral yields the discrete sum above).

      The correctness of our kinetic measurements can be simply verified by multiplying the data from the Latency panel with the data from the Velocity panel. If this results in the Distance plot, then there is no discrepancy. 

      In Author response image 3, we show the actual measured distance, 𝑑_total_, for both conditions (random and static entrance), calculated with the discrete sum above (black filled circles). 

      Author response image 3.

      We compare this with two quantities: (a) average speed multiplied by average latency (red squares); and (b) average of the product of speed by latency (blue inverted triangles). The averages are taken over mice. Notice that if the multiplication is taken before the average (as it should be done), then the product 〈𝑣𝑡〉45*( is indistinguishable from the total distance obtained by linear interpolation. Even taking the averages prior to the multiplication (which is physically incorrect, since speed and latency and properties of each individual mouse), yields almost exactly the same result (well within 1 standard deviation).

      The only thing to keep in mind here is that the Distance panel in the paper presents the normalized distance according to the target distance to the starting point. This is necessary because in the random entrance experiments, each mouse can go to 1 of 4 possible targets (each of which has a different distance to the starting point).

      Figure 4: The reader is confused about the use of a binary color scheme here for the checking behavior: gray for a large amount of checking, and pink for small. But, there is a large ellipse that is gray and there are smaller circles that are also gray, but these two gray areas mean very different things as far as the reader can tell. Is that so? Why not show the entire graded colormap of checking probability instead of such a seemingly arbitrary binary depiction?

      Thank you. Our coloring scheme was indeed poorly thought out and we have changed it. Hopefully the reviewer now finds it easier to interpret. The frequency of hole checks is now encoded into only filled circles of varying sizes and shades of pink. Small empty circles represent the arena holes (empty because they have no food); The large transparent gray ellipse is the variance of the unrestricted spatial distribution of hole checks.

      Figure 4C: What would explain the large amount of checking behavior at the perimeter? Does that occur predominantly during thigmotaxis?

      Yes. As mentioned above, thigmotaxis still occurs in the first trial of training. The point to note is that the hole checking shown in Fig. 4C is over all the mice so that, per mice, it does not appear so overwhelming. 

      Was there a correlation between the amount of time spent by the animals in a part of the maze and the amount of reward checking? Previous studies have shown that the two behaviors are often positively correlated, e.g. reference 20 in the manuscript. How does this fit with the path integration hypothesis?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Indeed, the time spent searching & the hole checking behavior are correlated. We added a new panel C to Fig. S4 showing a raw correlation plot between Latency and number of checks. 

      Also, in the last paragraph of the “Revealing the mouse estimate of target position from behavior” section under “Results”), we now added a sentence relating the findings in Fig. 4H and 4K (spatial distribution of hole checks, and density of checks near the target, respectively) to note that these findings are in agreement with Fig 3C (time spent searching in each quadrant).

      “The mean position of hole checks near (20cm) the target is interpreted as the mouse estimated target (Fig. 4C,D,G,H; green + sign=mean position; green ellipses = covariance of spatial hole check distribution restricted to 20cm near the target). This finding together with the displacement and spatial hole check maps (Figs. 4F and 4H, respectively) corroborates the heatmap of time spent in the target quadrant (Fig. 3C), suggesting a positive correlation between hole checks and time searching (see also Fig. S4C).”

      "Scratches and odor trails were eliminated by washing and rotating the maze floor between trials." Can one eliminate scratches by just washing the maze floor? Rotation of the maze floor between trials can make these cues unreliable or variable but will not eliminate them. Ditto for odor cues.

      The upper arena floor is rotated between trials so that any scratches will not be stable cues. We clarified this in the Discussion about potential cues. 

      See “What cues are required for learning the food location?”

      "Possible odor gradient cues were eliminated by experiments where such gradients were prevented with vacuum fans (Fig. S6E)" What tests were done to ensure that these were *eliminated* versus just diminished?

      "Probe trials of fully trained mice resulted in trajectories and initial hole checking identical to that of regular trials thereby demonstrating that local odor cues are not essential for spatial learning." As far as the reader can tell, probe trials only eliminated the food odor cues but did not eliminate all other odors. If so, this conclusion can be modified accordingly.

      We were most worried about odor cues guiding the mice and as now described at great length, we tried to mitigate this problem in many ways. As the reviewer notes, it is not possible to have absolute certainty that there are no odor cues remaining. The most difficult odor to eliminate was the potential odor gradient emanating from the mouse’s home cage. However, the 2 vacuum fans per cage were very powerful in first evacuating the cage air (150x in 5 minutes) and then drawing air from the arena, through the cage and out its top for the duration of each trial. We believe that we did at least vastly reduce any odor cues and perhaps completely eliminated them.

      The interpretation of direction selectivity is a bit tricky. At different places in this manuscript, this is interpreted as a path integration signal that encodes goal location, including the Consync cells. However, studies show that (e.g. Acharya et al. 2016) direction selectivity in virtual reality is comparable to that during natural mazes, despite large differences in vestibular cues and spatial selectivity. How would one reconcile these observations with path integration interpretation?

      Thank you. We had not been serious enough in considering the VR studies and their implications for optic flow as a cue for spatial learning. We now have a section (Optic flow cues) in the Discussion that acknowledges the potential role of such cues in spatial learning in our maze. 

      However, spatial learning in our maze can also occur in the dark. The next small section (Vestibular and proprioceptive cues) addresses this point. We cannot be certain about the precise cues used by the mouse to effectively learn to locate food in our maze, but it will take further behavioral and electrophysiological studies to go deeper into these questions. 

      An extended discussion is found in the sections entitled “What cues are required for learning the food location” and “A fixed start location and self-motion cues are required for spatial learning”.  We may have missed some references or ideas regarding VR maze learning with optic flow signals – the Acharya et al reference was an excellent starting point, and we would be grateful for additional pointers that would improve our discussion of this point.

      The manuscript would be improved if the speculations about place cells, grid cells, BTSP, etc. were pared down. I could easily imagine the outcome of these speculations to go the other way and some claims are not supported by data. "We note that the cited experiments were done with virtual movement constrained to 1D and in the presence of landmarks. It remains to be shown whether similar results are obtained in our unconstrained 2D maze and with only self-motion cues available." There are many studies that have measured the evolution of place cells in non- virtual mazes, look up papers from the 1990s. Reference 43 reports such results in a 2D virtual maze.

      We understand the reviewer’s concerns with the length of the manuscript. However, both the first and third reviewer did find this extensive section useful. We did not add the many papers on the evolution of place fields in real world mazes simply to prevent even greater expansion of the discussion, but relied on the very thorough review of Knierim and Hamilton instead. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      How is it that animals find learned food locations in their daily life? Do they use landmarks to home in on these learned locations or do they learn a path based on self-motion (turn left, take ten steps forward, turn right, etc.). This study carefully examines this question in a well-designed behavioral apparatus. A key finding is that to support the observed behavior in the hidden food arena, mice appear to not use the distal cues that are present in the environment for performing this task. Removal of such cues did not change the learning rate, for example. In a clever analysis of whether the resulting cognitive map based on self-motion cues could allow a mouse to take a shortcut, it was found that indeed they are. The work nicely shows the evolution of the rodent's learning of the task, and the role of active sensing in the targeted reduction of uncertainty of food location proximal to its expected location.

      Strengths:

      A convincing demonstration that mice can synthesize a cognitive map for the finding of a static reward using body frame-based cues. This shows that the uncertainty of the final target location is resolved by an active sensing process of probing holes proximal to the expected location. Showing that changing the position of entry into the arena rotates the anticipated location of the reward in a manner consistent with failure to use distal cues.

      Thank you.

      Weaknesses:

      The task is low stakes, and thus the failure to use distal cues at most costs the animal a delay in finding the food; this delay is likely unimportant to the animal. Thus, it is unclear whether this result would generalize to a situation where the animal may be under some time pressure, urgency due to food (or water) restriction, or due to predatory threat. In such cases, the use of distal cues to make locating the reward robust to changing start locations may be more likely to be observed.

      We have added “Combining trajectory direction and hole check locations yields a Target Estimation Vector” a section summarizing our main hypotheses and this section includes noting exactly this point + including the reference to the excellent MacIver paper on “robot aggression”.

      The main point here follows the Knierim and Hamilton review and assumes that learning “heading direction” and “distance from start to food” require different cues and extraction mechanisms.  “Here we follow a review by Knierim and Hamilton (12) suggesting independent mechanisms for extraction of target direction versus target distance information. Averaging across trajectories gave a mean displacement direction, an estimate of the average heading direction as the mouse ran from start to food. The heading direction must be continuously updated as the mice runs towards the food, given that the mean displacement direction remains straight despite the variation across individual trajectories. Heading direction might be extracted from optic flow and/or vestibular system and be encoded by head direction cells. However, the distance from home to food is not encoded by head direction signals.”

      And

      “We hypothesize that path integration over trajectories is used to estimate the distance from start to food. The stimuli used for integration might include proprioception or acceleration (vestibular) signals as neither depends on visual input. Our conclusion is in accord with a literature survey that concluded that the distance of a target from a start location was based on path integration and separate from the coding of target heading direction (12). Our “in the dark” experiments reveal the minimal stimuli required for spatial learning – an anchoring starting point and directional information based on vestibular and perhaps proprioceptive signals. This view is in accord with recent studies using VR (47, 48). Under more naturalistic conditions, animals have many additional cues available that can be used for flexible control of navigation under time or predation pressure (51).”.

      Furthermore, we added panel G do Fig S4, where we show the evolution of the heading angle along the trajectory, plotted as a function of the trials. We see that the mouse only steer towards the target in the last segment of the trajectory, consistent with having the head direction being continuously updated along the path to the food.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor (Recommendations For The Authors):

      All three reviewers agreed during the consultation that the context in which distal cues are described in the manuscript would benefit significantly from refinement. The distal cues may be made completely useless from an ethological perspective e.g. if they are seen as "moving" relative to the entrance point (i.e. if the animal were to think it were entering the same location), then the cues would appear as unstable in the random entrance. As such, they may be so unlike natural experiences as to be potentially confusing to the animal. Moreover, as reported in some of the reviews, the animals may be using the entrances and boundaries as cues to help refine path integration. The results are still very interesting, but more refinement in the text on the interpretation of cues would greatly improve the manuscript. Thus, we recommend that you revise your manuscript to address the reviews.

      Thank you. We agree with this recommendation of the reviewers have greatly expanded our discussion on cue stability as already indicated above. 

      Should you choose to revise your manuscript, pleasse ensure the manuscript include full statistical reporting including exact p-values wherever possible alongside the summary statistics (test statistic and df) and 95% confidence intervals. These should be reported for all key questions and not only when the p-value is less than 0.05.

      Done

      Lastly, I want to personally apologize for the long delay in editing this manuscript. All three reviews were unfortunately quite delayed, including my own review. I want to thank you for submitting your work to eLife and hope that we can be more efficient in editing your work in the future.

      It was a long review process, but we also appreciate that our article was dense and difficult to read. We tried to be comprehensive in our controls and analyses and we appreciate the considerable effort it must have taken to carefully review our paper.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I quite enjoyed this paper and have some suggestions for further improvement.

      First, while I appreciate that the format of the journal has Methods at the end, there are some key details that need to be moved forward in the study for proper appreciation of the results. These include:

      (1) Location and size of distal cues.

      Done

      (2) Use of floor washing between mice.  

      Done

      (3) Use of food across the subfloor to provide some masking of the location of the food reward.

      Done

      (4) A scale bar on one of the early figures showing the apparatus would be beneficial.

      Done for Figure 1 where we also provide arena diameter and area.

      (5) Motivational state of the mouse with respect to the food reward (in this case, not food restricted, correct?).

      Done

      Although we are told the trial where learning is defined to have occurred, we were not given the quantitative criterion operationalizing "learning" - please provide (unless I missed it!).

      Thank you.  This question turned out to be of importance and led to more detailed analyses and related Discussion. We therefore answer in depth.

      We now realize that learning the distance to food versus learning the direction to food must be analyzed separately.

      On Page 5 second paragraph we provide a definition of “learning distance to food”.

      “Fitting the function dtotal \= B*exp(-Trial/K) reveals the characteristic timescale of learning, K, in trial units (Fig. 2F). We obtained K= 26±24 giving a coefficient of variation (CV) of 0.92. The mean, K=26, is therefore very uncertain and far greater than the actual number of trials. Thus, we hypothesize that the mice did not significantly reduce their distance travelled (Fig. 2A,B,F) because they had not learned the food location – the decrease in latency (Fig. 2D) was due to its increased running speed and familiarity with non-spatial task parameters. ”

      On Page 7 second paragraph the same analysis gives:

      “Now the fitting of the function dtotal\=B exp(-Trial/K) yielded K\=5.6±0.5 with a CV = 0.08; the mean is therefore a reliable estimate of total distance travelled. We interpret this to indicate that it takes a minimum number of K= 6 trials for learning the distance to the target (see also Fig. S4D,E,F,G).

      Learning is still not complete because it takes 14 trials before the trajectories become near optimal.”

      Learning of distance to food is evident by Trial 6 but is not complete.

      On Page 9 third paragraph we give a very precise answer to time taken to learn the direction from start to food. This was already very clear from Fig. 4I but we had missed the significance of this result. 

      “We compared the deviation between the TEV and the true target vector (that points from start directly to the food hole; Fig. 4I). While the random entrance mice had a persistent deviation between TEV and target of more than 70o, the static entrance mice were able to learn the direction of the target almost perfectly by trial 6 (TEV-target deviation in first trial mean±SD = 57.27o ± 41.61o; last trial mean±SD = 5.16o ± 0.20o; P=0.0166). A minimum of 6 trials is sufficient for learning both the direction and distance to food (Fig. 4I) (Fig. 3F) (see Discussion). The kinetics of learning direction to food are clearly different from learning distance to food since the direction to food remains stable after Trial 6 while the distance to food continues to approach the optimal value.”

      Learning the direction from start to food is completely learned by Trial 6. 

      These analyses led to an addition to the Discussion on Page 20 (following the Heading).

      “Here we follow a review by Knierim and Hamilton (12) that hypothesized independent mechanisms for extraction of target direction versus target distance information. Our data strongly supports their hypothesis. Target direction is nearly perfectly estimated at trial 6 (Fig. 4I and Results). The deviation of the TEV from the start to food vector is rapidly reduced to its minimal value (5.16o) and with minimal variability (SD=0.20o). Learning the distance from start to food is also evident at trial 6 but only reaches an asymptotic near optimal value at trial 14 (Fig. 3F). The learning dynamics are therefore very different for target direction versus target distance. As noted below, the food direction is likely estimated from the activity of head direction cells. The neural mechanisms by which distance from start to food is estimated are not known (but see (49)).”

      We believe that this small addition summarizes the complicated answer to the reviewer’s question and is helpful in better connecting the Knierim and Hamilton paper to our data. However, if the reviewers and editors feel that we have gone too far or that this discussion is not clear, we can remove or alter the extra sentences as per any comments. 

      Reference #49 is to a review paper on spatial learning in weakly electric fish in the dark (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.conb.2021.07.002). The review summarizes data on a neural “time stamp” mechanism for estimating distance from start to food. In this review article, we explicitly hypothesized that rodents might utilize such a time stamp mechanism for finding food. We did not include this in the discussion because it was too distracting and would likely confuse readers but put in the reference in case some readers did want to access the “time stamp” hypothesis for spatial learning in the dark. 

      Second, the discussion was thoughtful and rich. I particularly enjoyed the segment describing the likely computations of the hippocampus. There are a few thoughts I have for the authors to think about that might be useful to potentially add to the discussion:

      "The remaining one, mouse 34, went from B to the start location and then, to A."

      This out-and-back pattern has been seen in the literature, such as multiple papers by Golani (here's one: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0812513106). Would the authors speculate, given their suggested algorithm, what the significance of out and back may be? Is there something about the cell's encoding of direction and distance that requires a return to the start location, and would this be different if representation is based on self-motion versus based on distal cues in an allocentric representation?

      We do discuss this for pretraining trials but have no idea what this mouse is doing in this case.

      In a low-stakes task environment, for an animal that has a low acuity visual system, where the penalty for not using distal cues is at most some additional (likely enriching in itself to these mice who live a fairly unenriched life in small cages) search/learning/exploration time, perhaps it is not so surprising that body-frame cues are used. Considering the ethology of the animal, if it had multiple exits of an underground burrow, it might need to use distal cues to avoid confusion. The scenario you provide to the animal is essentially a deceptive one where it has no way of telling it is coming out to the arena from a different burrow hole, modulo some small landmarks on an otherwise uniform cylinder of space. This might be asking too much of an animal where the space it would enter normally would not be a uniform cylinder.

      What happens with a higher-stakes case? This is clearly a different study, but you may find some recent work with a mobile predatory robot of interest (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211124723016820). Visual cues are crucial in the avoidance of threats in this case. Re-routing, as shown by multiple videos of that study, is after a brief pause, and seemingly takes into account the likely future position of the threat.

      Done. A fascinating paper that illustrates the unexpected “high level” behavior a rodent is capable of when placed in more naturalistic situations. I think our “two food location” experiments are along the same direction – unexpected rich behavior when the mouse are challenged.

      Connected to the low-stakes vs high-stakes point, it might be nice for the paper to discuss situations in which cognitive-map-based spatial problem solutions make sense versus not.

      Here is an example of such a discussion, around page 496:

      https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ayoo5w4jgnkblgfu7mpad/MacI09a_situated_cog.pdf?

      rlkey=2qhh89ii7jbkavt6ivevarvdk&dl=0.

      Right a very relevant discussion by MacIver. However, when I tried to write it in it took nearly half a page of dense writing to connect to the themes of our article. I figured that the already long discussion will try the patience of most readers and so decided to not include this extra discussion.

      Minor points/ queries

      Why the increase in sample density at about the 1/4 radius of arena distance? Static, trial 14, Figure 3I, shown also maybe Figure 4 H.

      We were also puzzled when this occurred but have no explanation. And there are, in our figures, many other examples of the mice hole checking near their exit site. See next answer.

      Why was the hole proximal to start so often probed in 7B?

      We were also puzzled when this occurred but have no explanation.

      Check Video 1 to exactly see this behavior. The mouse exits its home and immediately checks a nearby hole. It proceeds to Site B (empty) and then Site A (empty) with many hole checks along the way. After leaving Site A, the mouse proceeds to the wall located far from an entrance and does another hole check. The near the wall holes that are checked are in no way remarkable: a) they have never contained food; b) they are rotated between trials, and we wash the floor carefully, so they do not “smell” any particular hole; c) the food on the lower level floor is in no way “clumped” under that hole, etc.

      We have discussed this phenomenon quite a lot and LM was able to come up with only one hypothesis for this behavior. In analogy to the electric fish work (responses of diencephalic neurons to “leaving or encountering a landmark”), the “near the entrance” hole check might be an active sensing probe to “time stamp” the exit from home while finding food would “time stamp” the end of a successful trajectory. Path integration between time stamps would then provide the estimate for time/distance from start to food – exactly our hypothesis for weakly electric fish spatial learning in the dark. This hypothesis is exceedingly speculative and so we do not want to include it.  

      Normally I would cite a line number. Since I do not see line numbers, I will leave it to you to do a search:

      "A than the expected by chance" -> "than expected"

      Done. I apologize for the lack of line numbers. I have, so far, been unable to get Word to confine line numbers to selected text and not run over onto the Figure Legends. I have put in page numbers and hope this helps.

      RW, VR, MWM, etc - please expand the acronym on first use.

      Done

      It might be interesting to see differences in demand/reliance on active sensing in the individuals who learn the task less well than the animals who learn the task well. If the point is to expunge uncertainty, then does the need for such expunging increase with the poverty of internal representation resolution / fewer decimal places on the internal TEV calculation?

      We do have variation in the mice learning time but the numbers are not sufficient for this interesting extension. This is just one of many follow up studies we hope to carry out.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The crystal structure of the Sld3CBD-Cdc45 complex presented by Li et al. is a novel contribution that significantly advances our understanding of CMG formation during the rate-limiting step of DNA replication initiation. This structure provides insights into the intermediate steps of CMG formation. The study builds upon previously known structures of Sld3 and Cdc45 and offers new perspectives into how Cdc45 is loaded onto MCM DH through Sld3-Sld7. The most notable finding is the structural difference in Sld3CBD when bound to Cdc45, particularly the arrangement of the α8-helix, which is essential for Cdc45 binding and may also pertain to its metazoan counterpart, Treslin. Additionally, the conformational shift in the DHHA1 domain of Cdc45 suggests a possible mechanism for its binding to MCM2NTD.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is generally well-written, with a precise structural analysis and a solid methodological section that will significantly advance future studies in the field. The predictions based on structural alignments are intriguing and provide a new direction for exploring CMG formation, potentially shaping the future of DNA replication research.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness of the manuscript lies in the lack of experimental validation for the proposed Sld3-Sld7-Cdc45 model. Specifically, the claim that Sld3 binding to Cdc45-MCM does not inhibit GINS binding, a finding that contradicts previous research, is not sufficiently substantiated with experimental evidence. To strengthen their model, the authors must provide additional experimental data to support this mechanism. Also, the authors have not compared the recently published Cryo-EM structures of the metazoan CMG helicases with their predicted models to see if Sld3/Treslin does not cause any clash with the GINS when bound to the CMG. Still, the work holds great potential in its current form but requires further experiments to confirm the authors' conclusions.

      We appreciate the reviewers’ careful reading and the comments.

      Our structural analysis of Sld3CBD-Cdc45 showed the detailed interaction map between Sld3CBD and Cdc45 at 2.6 Å resolution. The Sld3, MCM and GINS binding sites of Cdc45 completely differed, suggesting that the Sld3CBD, Cdc45 and GINS could bind to MCM together. The SCMG-DNA model confirmed such a binding manner, although our study does not show how this binding manner affects the GINS loading by other initiation factors (Dpb11, Sld2, et. al). Regarding the previous studies, competition of Sld3 and GINS for binding to Cdc45 or Cdc45-MCM (Bruck et. al), which may be caused by the conformation change of Cdc45 DHHA1 between Sld3CBD-Cdc45 and CMG. We modified our manuscript and discussed (P7/L168-173, and P10/L282-286). Following the comment, we checked the recently published Cryo-EM structure (PDBID:8Q6O) with their predicted models of the metazoan CMG helicases (P7/L198-P8/L202) and added the Cdc45 mutation experiments to confirm our conclusion ([Recommendations for the authors] Q18).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary

      The manuscript presents valuable findings, particularly in the crystal structure of the Sld3CBD-Cdc45 interaction and the identification of additional sequences involved in their binding. The modeling of the Sld7-Sld3CBD-CDC45 subcomplex is novel, and the results provide insights into potential conformational changes that occur upon interaction. However, the work remains incomplete as several main claims are only partially supported by experimental data, particularly the proposed model for Sld3 interaction with GINS on the CMG. Additionally, the single-stranded DNA binding data from different species do not convincingly advance the manuscript's central arguments.

      Strengths

      (1) The Sld3CBD-Cdc45 structure is a novel contribution, revealing critical residues involved in the interaction.

      (2) The model structures generated from the crystal data are well presented and provide valuable insights into the interaction sequences between Sld3 and Cdc45.

      (3) The experiments testing the requirements for interaction sequences are thorough and conducted well, with clear figures supporting the conclusions.

      (4) The conformational changes observed in Sld3 and Cdc45 upon binding are interesting and enhance our understanding of the interaction.

      (5) The modeling of the Sld7-Sld3CBD-CDC45 subcomplex is a new and valuable addition to the field.

      Weaknesses

      (1) The proposed model for Sld3 interacting with GINS on the CMG needs more experimental validation and conflicts with published findings. These discrepancies need more detailed discussion and exploration.

      Our structural analysis experiment of Sld3CBD-Cdc45 showed the detailed interaction information between Sld3CBD and Cdc45 at 2.6 Å resolution. The Sld3CBD-binding site of Cdc45 is completely different from that of GINS and MCM binding to Cdc45, suggesting that the Sld3CBD, Cdc45, and GINS could bind to MCM together. The SCMG-DNA model confirmed such a binding manner. Following the comment, we added a Cdc45 mutant analysis, disrupting the binding to MCM and GINS but not affecting the Sld3CBD binding (Supplementary Figure 9). Our model is consistent with the GINS-loading requirement (the phosphorylation of Sld3 on Cdc45-MCM) and has no discrepancies with the stepwise loading fashion (Please see the responses to [Recommendations for the authors] Reviewer#1-Q14-15]). Regarding the previous studies, competition of Sld3 and GINS for binding to Cdc45 or Cdc45-MCM (Bruck et. al), by in vitro binding experiments, please see the responses to [Recommendations for the authors] Q6.

      (2) The section on the binding of Sld3 complexes to origin single-stranded DNA needs significant improvement. The comparisons between Sld3-CBD, Sld3CBD-Cdc45, and Sld7-Sld3CBD-Cdc45 involve complexes from different species, limiting the comparisons' value.

      As suggested, we tried to improve the ssDNA-binding section (Please see the responses to [Recommendations for the authors]: Q4 and Q5). We used Sld7-Sld3CBD-Cdc45 from different sources due to limitations in protein expression. These two sources belong to the same family and the proteins Sld7, Sld3 and Cdc45 have sequence conservation with similar structures predicted by the alphafold3 (RMSD = 0.356, 1.392, and 0.891 for Ca atoms of Sld7CTD, Sld7NTD-Sld3NTD, and Sld3CBD-Cdc45). Such similarity in source and protein lever allows us to do the comparison.

      (3) The authors' model proposing the release of Sld3 from CMG based on its binding to single-stranded DNA is unclear and needs more elaboration.

      Considering that ssDNA (ssARS1) is produced by CMG, the ssDNA-binding of Sld3 should happen after forming an active CMG. Therefore, the results of ssDNA binding experiments implied that the Sld3 release could be with the binding to ssDNA produced by CMG. We tried to present more elaborations in the revised version. (Please see the responses to [Recommendations for the authors] Q4, Q5).

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper by Li et al. describes the crystal structure of a complex of Sld3-Cdc45-binding domain (CBD) with Cdc45 and a model of the dimer of an Sld3-binding protein, Sld7, with two Sld3-CBD-Cdc45 for the tethering. In addition, the authors showed the genetic analysis of the amino acid substitution of residues of Sld3 in the interface with Cdc45 and biochemical analysis of the protein interaction between Sld3 and Cdc45 as well as DNA binding activity of Sld3 to the single-strand DNAs of the ARS sequence.

      Strengths:

      The authors provided a nice model of an intermediate step in the assembly of an active Cdc45-MCM-GINS (CMG) double hexamers at the replication origin, which is mediated by the Sld3-Sld7 complex. The dimer of the Sld3-Sld7 complexes tethers two MCM hexamers together for the recruitment of GINS-Pol epsilon on the replication origin.

      Weaknesses:

      The biochemical analysis should be carefully evaluated with more quantitative ways to strengthen the authors' conclusion.

      We thank your positive assessment. We provided more quantitative information and tried to quantify the experiments as suggested (Please see the responses to [Recommendations for the authors]).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I have several concerns that I will outline below, accompanied by my suggestions.

      (1) "The title of the paper- "Structural and functional insights into Cdc45 recruitment by Sld7-Sld3 for CMG complex Formation," appears misleading because it appears that authors present a structure of Sld3-Sld7 in complex with Cdc45, which is not the case here. If authors can provide additional structures proving the function of this complex, then this title justifies it. Otherwise, I recommend making a title that justifies the presented work in its current form.

      Following the comment, we change the title to “Sld3CBD-Cdc45 structural insights into Cdc45 recruitment for CMG complex formation”.

      (2) In lines 70-72, where the authors mention the known structures of different proteins, intermediates, and complexes, I recommend including PDB IDs of the described structures and reference citations. This will help the readers to analyze what is missing in the pathway and why this structure is essential.

      Following the comment, we added PBDIDs and references (P3/L72-74).

      (3) The representation of Figure 1A is unclear and looks clumsy. If the structure were rotated in another orientation, where α8 and α9 would be displayed on the forward side, it would be more helpful to understand the complex forming regions by looking at the structure. Also, I recommend highlighting the α8 and α9 in a contrasting color to be easily visible and attract readers' attention. Similarly, it would also be helpful if DHAA1 would be shown in a different color.

      Following the comment, we modified the Figure1 to show α8 and α9 of Sld3CBD and DHAA1 of Cdc45 clearly in revised version.

      (4) Can authors add a supplementary figure showing the probability of disorderness of the α8 helix region in the Sld3? Also, highlight what region became ordered in their structure.

      Yes, we have showed the disordered α8 helix region and highlight ordered α8 in the Sld3 in Figure S4 A.

      (5) Can you compare the Cdc45 long distorted helix (Supplementary Figure 3B) in the Sld3-Cdc45 complex with the Xenoupus and drosophila Cdc45 from their CMG structures? Also, can the authors explain why this helix is destabilized in their structure but is relatively stable in another Cdc45 structure (in CMG and HuCdc45)?

      We have checked all Cdc45 from published cryo-EM CMG structures, including Xenopus CMG-donson (8Q6O) and Drosophila CMG (6RAW), and all of them ordered the long helix in the CMG complex, whereas this long helix was disordered in the crystal structure of Sld3CBD-Cdc45 and Entamoeba histolytica Cdc45. The crystal packing around the long helix showed that it looks to be stabilized by crystal packing only in huCdc45, therefore we suggested that this long helix is detestable for crystallization.

      (6) I recommend adding the following parameters to Supplementary Table 2: 1. Rmerge values, 2. Wilson B factor, 3. Average B factor, and 4. Total number of molecules in ASU.

      We are sorry to make a mistake about Rmerge in Table 2. We correct it. We added the Wilson B factor, the average B factor, and the total number of Sld3CBD-Cde45 in ASU.

      (7) Can authors provide the B factor values of the α8 helix of Sld3?

      We checked the B factor values of the helix α8CTP of Sld3 in Sld3CBD-Cdc45. Since this helix binds to Cdc45 stably, the average B factor of the main chain is 45 Å<sup>2</sup> less than that of the whole structure. We added the average B factor of helix α8CTP into the Supplementary Figure 4A legend.

      (8) Can authors explain why higher Ramachandran outliers exist in their structure? Can it be reduced below 1% during refinement?

      There are 13 outliers (1.67%) in different places: four are close to the disorder regions (poor electron map), four are in a loop with poor map and the remains are turn parts or a loop. For the residues with poor electron maps, we could not modify them to the allow Ramachandran region with low Rfree value, so we could not reduce them to below 1% during refinement while keeping the current Rfree value.

      (9) In Supplementary Figure 8, please show the CD spectra of the Sld3WT. Why is the Sld3-3S peak relatively flat? Was the sample precipitating while doing the measurements, or does it have less concentration than others?

      To check the folding of the mutants, we did CD experiments with the estimated secondary structure elements. Because WT Sld3CBD was prepared in a complex with Cdc45, while the mutants of Sld3CBD existed along, we calculated the elements of secondary structure from the crystal structure of Sld3CBD-Cdc45. The concentration of samples was controlled to the same level for CD measurement. The relative plat of the Sld3-3S peak may be caused by precipitating while doing the measurement.

      (10) Can authors generate the alpha fold three models of the Sld3CBD-Cdc45-MCM-dsDNA and SCMG-dsDNA and compare them with the models they have generated?

      We tried to predict the Sld3CBD-Cdc45-MCM-dsDNA and SCMG-dsDNA using Alphafold3. Although the results showed similar structures to our models, many parts were disordered. So, we did not use the predicted structures.

      (11) The authors say that the overall molecular mass of the Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 was >400kDa on the SEC column. However, the column used for purifying this complex and the standards that were run on it for molecular weight calculations have not been written anywhere. If the Superdex 200 column was used, then the sample of more than 400kDa should not elute at the position shown in Supplementary Figure 2B. I recommend showing the standard MW plot and where the elution volume of the Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 lies on the standard curve. Also, add how molecular weight calculations were done and the calculated molecular mass.

      Following the comment, we added a measurement of Superdex 200 16/60 column (SEC) using a standard sample kit into Supplementary Figure 2 to show that the molecular weight of the peak at the position was estimated to be > 400 k Da.

      (12) I also recommend using at least one of the techniques, either SEC-MALS or AUC, to calculate the actual molecular mass of the Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 complex and to find its oligomeric state. If the authors want to prove their hypothesis that a dimer of this complex binds to MCMDH, it is essential to show that it exists as a dimer. Based on the current SEC profile, it appears as a monomer peak if the S200 SEC column is being used.

      As the response to (11), we added the standard MW plot (measurement using Superdex 200 16/60 column) using a standard sample kit. The molecular weight at the peak elution position of Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 was estimated to be 429k Da. Considering that the Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 dimer should be a flexible long-shaped molecule, the elution position could be at a larger molecular weight position than the real one (158 x 2 k Da). We also tried to confirm the particle size using SEC-SAXS, as the response to the next question (13).

      (13) Dynamic light scattering is not the most accurate method for calculating intermolecular distance. I recommend using another technique that calculates the accurate molecular distances between two Cdc45 if Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 is forming a dimer. Techniques such as FRET could be used. Otherwise, some complementary methods, such as SAXS, could also be used to generate a low-resolution envelope and fit the speculated dimer model inside, or authors could try negative staining the purified Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 and generate 2D class averages and low-resolution ab initio models to see how the structure of this complex appears and whether it satisfies the speculated model of the dimeric complex.

      We have tried both negative staining TEM and SEC-SAXS experiments. We could not obtain images good enough of negative staining of TEM to generate 2D class averages and low-resolution ab initio models. The results of SEC-SAXS provided a molecular weight of 370 - 420 kDa, and an Rg > 85 Å, which are consistent with our conclusion from SEC and DLS results but with large error due to the measurement temperature at 10-15°C (measuring equipment limitation). The peak of SCE-SAXS under measurement conditions was not as sharp as purification at 4°C and SAXS data is not good enough to make a molecular model, so we did not add them to our manuscript.

      (14) Authors mentioned in the introduction section (lines 72-73) that based on the single-molecule experiments, Cdc45 is recruited in a stepwise manner to MCMDH. If this is true and if Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 forms a dimer, this is also true, then for stepwise recruitment, the dimer will have to break into monomers, and this will be an energy-expensive process for the cell. So, would such a process occur physiologically? Can the authors explain how this would physiologically happen inside the cell?

      Sld7-Sld3-Cdc45 consists of domains linked by long loops, so the dimer Cdc45-Sld3-[Sld7]2-Sld3-Cdc45 is flexible long-sharp. Such a flexible dimer does not mean that two Cdc45 molecules must bind to MCM DH simultaneously and may bind to MCM DH by stepwise manner. The dimer formation of Sld7-Sld3-Cdc45 is advantageous for recruiting efficiently and saving energy. Moreover, our proposal of Cdc45-Sld3-[Sld7]2-Sld3-Cdc45 on MCM DH could be a stage during CMG formation in the cell. Following the comment, we added such descriptions (P7/L194, and P10/L276-279).

      (15) Can authors show experimentally that a dimer of Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 is binding to MCMDH and not a monomer in a stepwise fashion?

      In our study, we provided experiments of particle size to show the dimer of Sld7-Sld3-Cdc45 off MCM DH and a model of SCMG to indicate the dimer of Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 on MCM DH. This question should be addressed future by the Cryo-EM of Sld7-Sld3-Cdc45-MCM DH or Sld7-Sld3-CMG. As the response to Q14, the flexible dimer of Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 binding on MCMDH does not contradict the stepwise-loading fashion. The dimer of Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 binding on MCM DH shows a stage.

      (16) Can authors highlight where Sld7 will lie on their model shown in Figures 3A and 3C, considering their model shown in 3B is true?

      We predict that the Sld7-Sld3-Cdc45 should be in a dimer form of Cdc45-Sld3-[Sld7]2-Sld3-Cdc45 based on the structures and the particle size analysis. The Sld7 dimer could be across MCM DH on the top of Figure 3A right and 3C right. However, we could not add the Sld7 molecule to the models because there is no interaction data between Sld7 and MCM.

      (17) In Supplementary Figure 10, can authors show the residues between the loop region highlighted in the dotted circle to show that there is no steric clash between the residues in that region of their predicted model?

      Following the comment, we added the residues in Supplementary Figure 10 (Supplementary Figure 11 in the revised version) to show no steric clash in our predicted model.

      (18) It is essential to show experimentally that Sld3CBD neighbors MCM2 and binds Cdc45 on the opposite side of the GINS binding site. I recommend that the authors design an experiment that proves this statement. Mutagenesis experiments for the predicted residues that could be involved in interaction with proper controls might help to prove this point. Since this is the overall crux of the paper, it has to be demonstrated experimentally.

      We thank the reviewer’s recommendation. Our structural analysis experiment shows the interaction information between Sld3CBD and Cdc45 at 2.6 Å resolution. The Sld3CBD-binding site, GINS-binding site, and MCM-binding site of Cdc45 are completely different, indicating that the Sld3CBD, Cdc45 and GINS could bind to MCM together. The SCMG model confirmed such a binding manner. Following the recommendation, we added mutant analysis of Cdc45 G367D and W481R, which was reported to disrupt the binding to MCM and GINS, respectively. Both mutants do not affect the binging to Sld3CBD as we predicted (Supplementary Figure 9B). We modified our manuscript and discussed this point more clearly (P7/L170-173).

      (19) I recommend rewriting the sentence in lines 208-210. During EMSA experiments, new bands do not appear; instead, there is no shift at lower ratios, so you see a band similar to the control for Sld3CBD-Cdc45. So, re-write the sentence correctly to avoid confusion when interpreting the result.

      Following the comment, we rewrote this sentence to "The ssDNA band remained (Figure 4B) and new bands corresponding to the ssDNA–protein complex appeared in CBB staining PAGE (Supplementary Figures 13) when the Sld3CBD–Cdc45 complex was mixed with ssDNA at the same ratio, indicating that the binding affinity of Sld3CBD–Cdc45 for ssDNA was lower than that of Sld3CBD alone” (P8/L226-229)

      (20) Since CDK-mediated phosphorylation of Sld3 is known to be required for GINS loading, the ssDNA binding affinity of phosphorylated Sld3 remains the same. I wonder what would happen if phosphorylated Sld3 were used for the experiment shown in Figure 4B.

      The CDK phosphorylation site is located at Sld3CTD and our ssDNA-binding experiment did not include the Sld3CTD, so phosphorylated Sld3 does not affect the results shown in Figure 4B.

      (21) Sld3CBD-Cdc45 has a reduced binding affinity for ss DNA, and Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 and Sl7-Sld3ΔC have a similar binding affinity to Sld3CBD based on figure 4B. It appears that Sld3CBD reduces the DNA binding affinity of CDC45 or vice versa. Is it correct to say so?

      Our opinion is “vice versa”. Cdc45 reduces the ssDNA-binding affinity of Sld3CBD. Although we could not point out the ssDNA-binding sites of Sld3CBD, the surface charge of Sld3CBD implies that α8CTP could contribute to ssDNA-binding (Supplementary Figures 15).

      (22) Cdc45 binds to the ssDNA by itself, but in the case of Sld3CBD-Cdc45, the binding affinity is reduced for Sld3CBD and Cdc45. Based on their structure, can authors explain what leads to this complex's reduced binding affinity to the ssDNA? Including a figure showing how Sld7-Sld3CBD-Cdc45 interacts with the DNA would be a nice idea.

      Previous studies showed that Cdc45 binds tighter to long ssDNA (> 60 bases) and the C-terminus of Cdc45 is responsible for the ssDNA binding activity. The structure of Sld3CBD-Cdc45 shows the C-terminal domain DHHA1 of Cdc45 binds to Sld3CBD, which may lead to Sld3CBD-Cdc45 complex reduced ssDNA-binding affinity of Cdc45. We agree that showing a figure of how Sld7-Sld3CBD-Cdc45 interacts with ssDNA is a nice idea. However, there is no detailed interaction information between Sld7-Sld3Δ-Cdc45 and ssDNA, so we could not give a figure to show the ssDNA-binding manner. We added a figure to show the surface charges of Sld3CBD of Sld3CBD-Cdc45, and Sld3NTD-Sld7NTD, respectively (Supplemental Figure 15).

      (23) Based on the predicted model of Sld7-Sld3 and Cdc45 complex, can authors explain how Sld7 would restore the DNA binding ability of the Sld3CBD?

      It can be considered that Sld7 and Sld3NTD could bind ssDNA. Although we did not perform the ssDNA-binding assay of Sld7, the Sld3NTD-Sld7NTD surface shows a large positive charge area which may contribute to ssDNA-binding (Supplemental Figure 15). We added the explanation (P9/L245-248).

      (24) It would be important to show binding measurements and Kd values of all the different complexes shown in Figure 4B with ssDNA to explain the dissociation of Cdc45 from Sld7-Sld3 after the CMG formation. I also recommend describing the statement from lines 224-227 more clearly how Sld7-Sld3-Cdc45 is loading Cdc45 on CMG.

      As the reviewer mentioned, the binding measurements and Kd of values of all the different complexes are important to explain the dissociation of Sld7-Sld3 from CMG. The pull-down assay using chromatography may be affected by balancing the binding affinity and chromatography conditions. Therefore, we used EMSA with native-PAGE, which is closest to the natural state. However, the disadvantage is that the Kd values could not be estimated. For lines 224-227, the ssARS1-binding affinity of Sld3 and its complex should relate to the dissociation of Sld7–Sld3 from the CMG complex but not Cdc45 loading, because ssARS1 is unwound from dsDNA by the CMG complex after Cdc45 and GINS loading. We modified the description (P9/L248-251).

      (25) Can authors explain why SDS-PAGE was used to assess the ssDNA (See line 420)?

      We are sorry for making this mistake and corrected it to “polyacrylamide gel electrophoresis”.

      (26) In line 421, can the authors elaborate on a TMK buffer?

      We are sorry for this omission and added the content of the TMK buffer (P16/L453).

      (27) I am curious to know if the authors also attempted to Crystallize the Sld7-Sld3CBD-Cdc45 complex. This complex structure would support the authors' hypothesis in this article.

      We tried to crystallize Sld7-Sld3Δ-Cdc45 but could not get crystals. We also tried using cryo-EM but failed to obtain data.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The manuscript would be strengthened if the authors acknowledged in greater detail how their work agrees with or disagrees with Itou et al. (PMID: 25126958 DOI: 10.1016/j.str.2014.07.001). The introduction insufficiently described the findings of that previous work in lines 63-64.

      We compared Sld3CBD in Sld3CBD-Cdc45 to the monomer reported by Itou et al. (PMID: 25126958 DOI: 10.1016/j.str.2014.07.001) in the section of [The overall structure of Sld3CBD-Cdc45] and point out the structural similarity and difference (P5/L105-106), especially, conformation change of Sld3CBD α8 for binding to Cdcd45, which agrees to the mutant experiments of Itou et al., (P3/L126-127). Another Cdc45-binding site of Sld3CBD in the Sld3CBD-Cdc45 complex is α9 not residues predicted in previous studies.

      (2) Figure 2. Could you please perform and present data from multiple biological replicates (e.g., at least two independent experiments) for each mutant strain? This would help ensure that the observed pull-downs (2A-B) and growth patterns (2C) are consistent and reproducible.

      We have done pull-downs three times from co-expression to purification and pull-down assay. We added descriptions to the method of [Mutant analysis of Sld3 and Cdc45]. The growth patterns are two times in Figure 2C.

      (3) Figure 3B. The match between the predicted complex length and particle size measured by dynamic light scattering (DLS) is striking. Did the authors run the analysis with vehicle controls and particle size standards? There is no mention of these controls.

      Following the comment, we added the control data of buffer and standard protein lysozyme, and the descriptions to the method of [Dynamic light scattering].

      (4) Figure 4. In lines 216-217, the authors write that the binding of the K. marxianus complex "demonstrates that the presence of Sld7 could restore the single-stranded DNA binding capacity of Sld3." Another explanation is that complexes from each species bind differently. If the authors want to make a strong claim, they should compare the binding of complexes containing the same proteins.

      Agree with the comment, to make a strong claim using samples from the same source is better. Due to limitations in protein overexpression, we used Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45 from different sources two sources belong to the identical family (Saccharomycetaceae) and the proteins Sld7, Sld3 and Cdc45 have sequence conservation with similar structures (RMSD = 0.356, 1.392, and 0.891 for Ca atoms of Sld7CTD, Sld7NTD-Sld3NTD, and Sld3CBD-Cdc45) predicted by the alphafold3. Such similarity in source and protein level allows us to do the comparison. Moreover, we modified the description to “indicates that the presence of Sld7 and Sld3NTD could increase the ssDNA-binding affinity to a level comparable to that of Sld3CBD.

      (5) The logic of the following is unclear: "Considering that ssDNA is unwound from dsDNA by the helicase CMG complex, Sld7-Sld3ΔC-Cdc45, and Sld7-Sld3C having a stronger ssDNA-binding capacity than Sld3CBD-Cdc45 may imply a relationship between the dissociation of Sld7-Sld3 from the CMG complex and binding to ssDNA unwound by CMG." (Lines 224-227). How do the authors imagine that the binding affinity difference due to Sld7 contributes to the release of Sld3? Please explain.

      Considering that ssARS1 is unwound from dsARS1 by the activated helicase CMG complex formed after loading Cdc45 and GINS, Sld3–Sld7 having a stronger ssARS1-binding affinity may provide an advantage for the dissociation of Sld7–Sld3 from the CMG complex. We modified the sentence of Lines 224-227 (P9/L248-251).

      (6) The authors suggest that the release of Sld3 from the helicase is related to its association with single-stranded ARS1 DNA. They refer to the work of Bruck et al. (doi: 10.1074/jbc.M111.226332), which demonstrates that single-stranded origin DNA inhibits the interaction between Sld3 and MCM2-7 in vitro. The authors selectively choose data from this previous work, only including data that supports their model while disregarding other data. This approach hinders progress in the field. Specifically, Bruck proposed a model in which the association of Sld3 and GINS with MCM2-7 is mutually exclusive, explaining how Sld3 is released upon CMG assembly. In Figure 3 of the authors' model, they suggest that Sld3 can associate with MCM2-7 through CDC45, even when GINS is bound. Furthermore, Bruck's work showed that ssARS1-2 does not disrupt the Sld3-Cdc45 interaction. Instead, Bruck's data demonstrated that ssARS1-2 disrupts the interaction between MCM2-7 and Sld3 without Cdc45. While we do not expect the authors to consider all data in the literature when formulating a model, we urge them to acknowledge and discuss other critical data that challenges their model. Additionally, it would be beneficial for the field if the authors include both modes of Sld3 interaction with MCM2-7 (i.e., directly with MCM or through CDC45) when proposing a model for how CMG assembly and Sld3 release occurs.

      In our discussion, we referred to the studies of Bruck’s data (doi: 10.1074/jbc.M111.226332) but did not discuss more because we didn’t perform similar experiments in vitro, and we do not think that no discussion hinders progress in the field. Promoting research progress, the new experiment should provide a new proposal and updated knowledge. Although we do not know exactly the positional relationship between Sld3 and Dpb11-Sld2 on MCM during GINS recruiting, the Sld3CBD-Cdc45 structure shows clearly that the Sld3CBD-binding site of Cdc45 is completely different from that of GINS and MCM binding to Cdc45. The model SCMG confirmed such a binding manner, Sld3, Cdc45 and GINS could bind together. The competition of Sld3 and GINS for binding to Cdc45 or Cdc45-MCM reported by Bruck et. al, may be caused by the conformation change of Cdc45 DHHA1 between Sld3CBD-Cdc45 and CMG, or without other initiation factors (CMG formation is regulated by the initial factors). We modified the discussion (P10/L282-286). Regarding ssARS1-binding, we did not discuss with Bruck's data that ARS1-2 does not disrupt the Sld3-Cdc45 interaction, because the data does not conflict with our proposal, although the data does not have an advantage. We propose that the release of Sld3 and Sld7 from CMG could be associated with the binding of ssARS1 unwound by CMG, but the dissociation event of Sl3-Sld7 doesn’t only ssARS1-binding. The exploration of unwound-ssARS1 causes the conformation change of CMG, which may be another event for Sld3-Sld7 dissociation. However, we do not have more experiments to confirm this and Bruck’s ssDNA-binding experiment did not use all of Sld3, Cdc45 and MCM, so we do not discuss more with Bruck’ data in the revised version (P11/L303-305).,

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major points:

      (1) Figure 1, Sld3CBD-Cdc45 complex: Please indicate the number of critical residues and those of alpha-helixes and beta-sheets in this Figure or Supplemental Figure to confirm the authors' claim.

      Following the comment, we added the number of alpha-helixes and beta-sheets with residue numbers in Figure 1, and Supplemental Figures 4 and 5. We also added a topology diagram (Supplemental Figure 3).

      (2) Figure 2A and B: Please quantify the interaction here with a proper statistical comparison.

      In the experiments of Figures 2A and 2B, we used a co-expression system to co-purify the complexes and check their binding. For quantifying, we added the concentrations of the samples used in the Method of [Mutant analysis of Sld3 and Cdc45].

      (3) Figure 3B, EMSA: If these are from the EMSA assay, at least free DNAs and protein-bound DNAs are present on the gel. However, the authors showed one band, which seems to be free DNA in Figure 3B and separately the smear band of the protein complex in Supplementary Figure 12, and judged the DNA binding by the disappearance of the band (line 207). Interestingly, in the case of Sld3CBD, there are few smear bands (Supplementary Figure 12). Where is DNA in this case? The disappearance could be due to the contaminated nucleases (need a control non-specific DNA). Without showing the Sld3CBD-DNA complex in the gel, the conclusion that the DNA binding activity of Sld3CBD-Cdc45 to DNA is lower than Sld3CBD alone (line 210) is very much speculative. The same is true for Sld7-Sld3dC-Cdc45.

      Please explain the method (EMSA) briefly in the main text and show a whole gel in both Figures. If the authors insist that the Sld3 DNA-binding activity is altered with Cdc43 (and MCM), it is better to perform a more quantitative DNA binding assay such as BIAcore (surface plasmon), etc.

      In the EMSA, we use SYBR (Figure 4B) and CBB (Supplementary Figure 13) staining to show bands of ssDNA and protein, respectively. As the reviewer mentioned, the disappearance of the bands could be due to the contaminated nucleases, we did experiments with non-specific ssDNA-binding as a control using the same proteins shown in Supplementary Figure 14. So, we are convinced that the disappearance of the ssDNA bands or not disappearance could occur when binding to protein or not. We added such explanations in the text (P9/L242-244). As we mentioned in the legend of Supplementary Figure 13, the Sld3CBD could not enter the gel, even when bound to ssDNA, because the pI values exceeded the pH of the running buffer.

      Following the reviewer's comments, we attempted a pull-down experiment using Histag (C-terminal histag of Sld3CBD/Sld3ΔC). Unfortunately, we encountered difficulties in achieving the balance between binding and chromatography conditions.

      (4) Figure 3B: Please quantify the DNA binding here with a proper statistical comparison with triplicate.

      For EMSA (Figure 3B), we used samples of ssDNA:protein= 1:0. 1:1, 1:2, 1:4 and 0:1 molecular ratios with 10 pM as a 1 unit. We added concentrations of the samples in the Method of [Electrophoretic mobility shift assay for ssDNA binding].

      Following the comment, we tried to quantify the binding strength by integrating the grayscale of the bands in gel photos. However, we are concerned because this quantitative calculation through grayscale could not provide an accurate representation of results. Many sample groups cannot be run on one gel. Therefore, the gel differences in parameters cause large errors in the calculation as shown in Author response image 1. Although the calculated integral grayscale chart is consistent with our conclusion, we do not want to add this to our manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      (5) Because of poor writing, the authors need to ask for English editing.

      We are very sorry for the language. We asked a company (Editag, https:www.editage.jp) to do a native speaker revision and used AI to recheck English.

      Minor points:

      (1) Lines 47-58, Supplementary Figure 1: Although the sentences describe well how CMG assembles on the replication origin, the figure does not reflect what is written, but rather shows a simple schematic figure related to the work. However, for the general readers, it is very useful to see a general model of the CMG assembly. Then, the authors need to emphasize the steps focused in this study.

      Thank you for your thoughtful comments. We optimized Figure 1 and hope it will be more understandable to general readers.

      (2) Line 50, DDK[6F0L](superscript): what is 5F0L?

      We are sorry for this mistake, that is a PDBID of the DDK structure. we deleted 6F0L.

      (3) Lines 68 and 69, ssDNA and dsDNA: should be "single-stranded DNA (ssDNA)" and double-stranded DNA (dsDNA) when these words appear for the first time.

      Following the comment, we modified it to “single-stranded DNA (ssDNA)” and “double-stranded DNA (dsDNA)” (P3/L68,70).

      (4) Line 84, Cdc45s: What "s" means here?

      We are sorry for this mistake, we modified it to “Cdc45”.

      (5) Line 87, Sld3deltaC: What is Sld3deltaC? This is the deletion of either the Cdc45-binding domain or the C-terminal domain.

      Sld3ΔC is a deletion of the C-terminal domain of Sld3. We added the residue range and explanation (P4/L91).

      (6) Line 103: Although the authors mentioned beta-sheets 1-14 in the text, there is no indication in Figures. It is impossible to see the authors' conclusion.

      The secondary structure elements of Sld3CBD-Cdc45 are shown in Supplementary Figures 4 and 5. Following the comment, we added a topology diagram of Sld3CBD and Cdc45 in the Sld3CBD-Cdc45 complex as Supplementary Figure 3 and added citations when describing structural elements.

      (7) Line 106, huCdc45: Does this mean human Cdc45? If so, it should be "human CDC45 (huCDC45). CMG form is from budding yeast? Please specify the species.

      Yes, huCdc45 is human Cdc45. We modified it into “human CDC45 (huCdc45)”.

      (8) Line 107, Supplemental Figure 3B, black ovals: Please add "alpha7" in the Figure.

      Following the comment, we added a label of Cdc45 α7 to Supplemental Figure 3B and 3C (Supplemental Figure 4B and 4C in revised version).

      (9) Line 128, DHHA1: What is this? Please explain it in the text.

      Following the comment, we added the information on DHHA1 (P3/L75-77).

      (10) Line 130, beta13, and beta14: If the authors would like to point out these structures, please indicate where these sheets are in Figures.

      We added a topology diagram as Supplementary Figure 3 to show the β-sheet in DHH and added a citation in the text.

      (11) Line 133: Please add (Figure 1B) after the a8CTP.

      Following the comment, we added “(Figure 1C)” (1B is 1C in revised version) after the α8CTP (P6/L133).

      (12) Line 140: After DHHA1, please add (Figure 1C).

      Following the comment, we added the figure citation after the DHHA1 (P6/L140).

      (13) Line 142: After DHHA1, please add (Figure 1D).

      Following the comment, we added the figure citation after the DHHA1 (P6/L142).

      (14) Line 149, Sld3-Y seemed to retain a faint interaction with Cdc45. The Cdc45 band is too faint here. Moreover, as shown above, without the quantification with proper statistics, it is hard to draw this kind of conclusion.

      We agree that the Cdc45 band corresponding to Sld3-Y in the pull-down assay was very faint, so we performed an in vivo experiment (Fig2C) to confirm this result.

      (15) Line 149, Figure 2A and B: What kind of interaction assay was used here? Simple pull-down. It seems to eluate from the column. If so, how do the authors evaluate the presence of the proteins in different fractions? Please explain the method briefly in the main text.

      Figure 2 shows a co-express pull-down binding assay. To describe the co-express pull-down experiments clearly, we added more explanations in the Methods [Mutation analysis of Sld3 and Cdc45].

      (16) Line 154-155: Please show the quantification to see if the reduced binding is statistically significant.

      Here, we explain why Cdc45-A remained Sld3CBD-bind ability. Although mutant Cdc45-A has reduced three hydrogen bonds with D344 of Sld3CBD, the remaining hydrogen-bond network keeps contact between Sld3CBD and Cdc45.

      (17) Line 158, cell death: "No growth" does not mean cell death. Please rephrase here.

      Following the comment, we modified it to “no growth” (P6/L158).

      (18) Line 166: After CMG dimer, please add "respectively".

      Following the comment, we added the word “, respectively” after CMG dimer (P7/L178).

      (19) Line 194-195: I can not catch the meaning. Please rephrase here to clarify the claim. What are ssARS1-2 and ARS1-5?

      Following the comment, we added more information about ssDNA fragments at the beginning of this section (P8/L210-214).

      (20) Figure 4A and Supplemental Figure 12 top, schematic figure of ARS region. It is hard to catch. More explanation of the nature of the DNA substrates and much better schematic presentations would be appreciated.

      Following the comment, we added more information about ARS1 to the figure legend.

      (21) Figure 1A, dotted ovals should be dotted squares as shown in the enlarged images on the bottom.

      Following the comment, we modified Figure 1A and the legend to change the dotted ovals into dotted squares.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors investigate the functional difference between the most commonly expressed form of PTH, and a novel point mutation in PTH identified in a patient with chronic hypocalcemia and hyperphosphatemia. The value of this mutant form of PTH as a potential anabolic agent for bone is investigated alongside PTH(1-84), which is a previously used anabolic therapy. The authors have achieved the aims of the study. Their conclusion, however, that this suggests a "new path of therapeutic PTH analog development" seems unfounded; the benefit of this PTH variant is not clear, but the work is still interesting.

      The work does not identify why the patient with this mutation has hypocalcemia and hyperphosphatemia; this was not the goal of the study, but the data are useful for helping to understand that.

      Strengths:

      The work is novel, as it describes the function of a novel, naturally occurring, variant of PTH in terms of its ability to dimerise, to lead to cAMP activation, to increase serum calcium, and its pharmacological action compared to normal PTH.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The use of very young, 8-10 week old, mice as a model of postmenopausal osteoporosis is a major limitation of this study. At 8 weeks, the effect of ovariectomy leads to lack of new trabecular bone formation, rather than trabecular bone loss due to a defect in bone remodelling. Although the findings here provide a comparison between two forms of PTH, it is unlikely to be of direct relevance to the patient population. For example, the authors find an inhibitory effect of PTH on osteoclast surface, which is very unusual. Adding to this concern is that the authors have not described the regions used for histomorphometry, and from their figures (particularly the TRAP stain), it seems that the primary spongiosa (which is a region of growth) has been used for histomorphometry, rather than the secondary spongiosa (which more accurately reflects bone remodelling). Much further detail is needed to justify the use of this very young model, and a section on the limitations of this model is needed. Please provide that section in the revised manuscript.

      Thank you for your crucial comment. We obtained 8-week-old female mice and stabilized them in our facility for 2 weeks. Then, we performed OVX using 10-week-old mice and determined the effects of dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) on bone after 8 weeks because of 4 weeks for recovery and 4 weeks for PTH or <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34). Therefore, we sacrificed the mice at 18-week-old mice. We revised the method section on page 18, line 436-441 and page 18, line 442-448 as follows.

      - ‘Eight-week-old C57BL/6N female mice were purchased from KOATECH (Gyeonggi-do, Republic of Korea), and stabilized mice for 2 weeks. All animal care and experimental procedures were conducted under the guidelines set by the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committees of Kyungpook National University (KNU-2021-0101). The mice were housed in a specific pathogen-free environment, with 4-5 mice per cage, under a 12-h light cycle at 22 ± 2°C. They were provided with standard rodent chow and water ad libitum.’

      - ‘An ovariectomized (OVX) mouse model was established using 10-week-old C57BL/6N female mice. Following surgery, mice were divided into the following four groups (n = 6 mice/group) as follows: sham, OVX control group, OVX + PTH (1–34) treated group (40 µg/kg/day), and OVX + dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH treated group (40-80 µg/kg/day). OVX mice were allowed to recover for 4 weeks after surgery. Afterward, PTH (1–34) or <sup>R25C</sup>PTH was injected subcutaneously 5 times a week for 4 weeks. Micro-computed tomography (μ-CT) and histological analyses were performed on 4 groups at 18 weeks of age.’

      We also appreciate the reviewer's helpful comment on histology analysis. We agree with the reviewer’s comment that the primary spongiosa does not fully reflect bone remodeling. For histomorphometry analysis in young or male mice, we commonly use the secondary spongiosa, which more accurately reflects bone remodeling. However, in aged or OVX-induced osteoporosis mouse models, we use the primary and secondary spongiosa for histomorphometry analysis because of the barely detectable bone in the secondary spongiosa. In the TRAP staining, we observed an inhibitory effect of PTH on the osteoclast surface/bone surface, which was due to an increased bone surface in the PTH treatment group and less bone in the OVX-vehicle group. Serum CTX1 levels showed no significant difference between the OVX+vehicle and OVX+PTH(1-34) groups. We revised the Materials and Methods (page 21, line 502) and Discussion (page 14, line 330) sections as follows.

      - ‘In the histomorphometry analysis for TRAP staining, we used the secondary and primary spongiosa for the trabecular ROI because of the barely detectable in the secondary spongiosa of OVX model.’

      - ‘This study has several limitations. First, it is urgently necessary to determine whether dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH is present in human patient serum. Second, TRAP staining showed an inhibitory effect of PTH treatment on the primary spongiosa area. However, the secondary spongiosa, which more accurately reflects bone remodeling (55), was not examined due to the barely detectable bone in this area in OVX-induced osteoporosis mouse models. Third, it is unclear whether similar bone phenotypes exist between human <sup>R25C</sup>PTH patients and dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH-treated mice, particularly regarding low bone strength. Although the dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH-treated group showed higher cortical BMD compared to WT-Sham or PTH groups, there was no difference in bone strength compared to the osteoporotic mouse model. Fourth, our study showed that PTH or <sup>R25C</sup>PTH treatment decreased circumferential length; it is uncertain if this phenotype is also present in PTH-treated or <sup>R25C</sup>PTH patients. Finally, we did not analyze the <sup>R25C</sup>PTH mutant mouse model, which would allow us to compare phenotypes that most closely resemble those of human patients.’

      (2) It is also somewhat concerning that the age range is from 8-10 weeks, increasing the variability within the model. Did the age of mice differ between the groups analysed?

      We utilized mice of the same age (10 weeks) across all experiments involving the surgically induced ovariectomy (OVX) model described as above.

      (3) Methods are not sufficiently detailed. For example, the regions used for histomorphometry are not described, there is no information on micro-CT thresholds, no detail on the force used for mechanical testing. Please address this request.

      Thank you for your comment. Let me address your points step by step.

      (1) Thresholds for analysis were determined manually based on grayscale values for each experimental group as follows: trabecular bone: 3000; cortical bone: 5000 for all samples. We utilized an HA (calcium hydroxyapatite) phantom with HA content ranging from 0 to 1200 mg CaHA/cm³ to measure the grayscale values via µ-CT. These measurements were then used to generate a standard curve.

      Author response image 1.

      (2) Bone parameters and density were analyzed in the region between 0.3–1.755 mm (Voxel size: 9.7um, 150 slices) from the bottom of the growth plate. Analysis of bone structure was performed using adaptive thresholding in a CT Analyser.

      Author response image 2.

      (3) Three‐point bending test, the left femur of the mouse was immersed in 0.9 % NaCl solution, wrapped in gauze, and stored at −20°C until ready for a three-point bending test. In this test, we placed the mouse femurs positioned horizontally with the anterior surface facing upwards, centered on the supports, and the compressive force was applied vertically to the mid-shaft. The pressure sensor was positioned at a distance that allowed for the maximum allowable pressure (200N) without interfering with the test (20.0 mm for the femur). A miniature material testing machine (Instron, MA, USA) was used for this test. The crosshead speed was decreased to 1 mm/min until failure. During the test, force-displacement data were collected to determine the maximum load and slope of the bones.

      (4)  As the reviewer’s suggestion, we revised the methods on page 20, line 477 and line 482-486 as follows.

      - ‘Bone parameters and density were analyzed in the region between 0.3–1.755 mm (150 slices) from the bottom of the growth plate. Analysis of bone structure was performed using adaptive thresholding in a µ-CT Analyser. Thresholds for analysis were determined manually based on grayscale values for each experimental group: trabecular bone: 3000; cortical bone: 5000 for all samples.’

      -  ‘The left femur of the mouse was immersed in 0.9 % NaCl solution, wrapped in gauze, and stored at −20°C until ready for a three-point bending test. In this test, we placed the mouse femurs horizontally with the anterior surface facing upwards, centered on the supports, and the compressive force was applied vertically to the mid-shaft. The pressure sensor was positioned at a distance that allowed maximum allowable pressure (1000N) without interfering with the test (20.0 mm for the femur). A miniature material testing machine (Instron, MA, U.S.A.) was used for this test. The crosshead speed was decreased to 1 mm/min until failure. During the test, force-displacement data were collected to determine the maximum load and slope of the bones.’

      (4) There are three things unclear about the calvarial injection mouse model. Firstly, were the mice injected over the calvariae or with a standard subcutaneous injection (e.g. at the back of the neck)? If they were injected over the calvaria, why were both surfaces measured? Secondly, why was the dose of the R25C-PTH double that of PTH(1-34)? Thirdly, there is no justification for the use of "more intense coloration" as a marker of new bone; this requires calcein labelling to prove it new bone. It would be more reliable to measure and report the thickness of the calvaria. Please address these technical questions.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback on the calvarial injection mouse model. Below are our responses to the specific points mentioned:

      (1) Injection method and measurement sites: The injections were administered subcutaneously above the calvaria, rather than at the standard subcutaneous site such as the back of the neck. This approach was chosen to ensure direct delivery of the peptide to the target area, enhancing the localized effects on bone formation. Measurements were taken at two different parts of the calvaria to account for any variation in the spread and absorption of the administered substance following injection. By analyzing both surfaces, we aimed to provide a comprehensive assessment of the impact on calvarial bone thickness.

      (2) Dose of <sup>R25C</sup>PTH compared to PTH(1-34): The dose of <sup>R25C</sup>PTH used in our study was determined based on molecular weight calculations. The molecular weight of the dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) is approximately twice that of the monomeric PTH(1-34). Therefore, to maintain a consistent molar concentration and ensure comparable biological effects, the dose of <sup>R25C</sup>PTH was adjusted accordingly.

      (3) Use of "more intense coloration" as a marker of new bone: We acknowledge that calcein labeling would provide a more reliable and quantifiable way to identify new bone formation. The use of “more intense coloration” was intended as a qualitative indicator in this study, and we recognize the technical limitations of this approach.

      (5) The presentation of mechanical testing data is not sufficient. Example curves should be shown, and data corrected for bone size needs to be shown. The difference in mechanical behaviour is interesting, but does it stem from a difference in the amount of bone, or two a difference in the quality of the bone? Please explain this matter better in the manuscript.

      Thank you for your comment.

      As a reviewer's comment, we provided example curves for the rat femur three-point bending test as shown below.

      Author response image 3.

      (1) The cortical bone area was decreased in the OVX-Vehicle and OVX-<sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) groups but not in the OVX-PTH(1-34) group compared to the Sham group. However, the total bone area was decreased in the PTH(1-34) and <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) treated groups, with no significant difference in the OVX-Vehicle group compared to the Sham group. Collectively, there was an increase in cortical thickness which resulted in a narrowing of the bone marrow space in OVX-<sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) groups. Accordingly, we revised Fig 5B with the addition of Tt.Ar and Ct.Ar.

      (2) As the reviewer’s suggestion, we revised the results on page 10, line 220-228 s follows.

      - ‘Quantitative micro-computed tomography (μ-CT) analysis of the femurs obtained from each group revealed that, as compared to OVX + vehicle controls, treatment with PTH(1–34) increased femoral trabecular bone volume fraction (Tb.BV/TV) by 121%, cortical bone volume fraction (Ct.BV/TV) by 128%, cortical thickness (Ct.Th) by 115%, cortical area (Ct.Ar) by 110%, and cortical area fraction (Ct.Ar/Tt.Ar) by 118% while decreased total tissue area (Tt.Ar) by 93% (Figure 5A and 5B). Treatment with dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) had similar effects on the femoral cortical bone parameters, as it increased Ct.BMD by 104%, Ct.BV/TV by 125%, Ct.Th by 107%, and Ct.Ar/Tt.Ar by 116%, while decreased Tt.Ar 86% (Figure 5). Considering the reduction of Tt.Ar and no change of Ct.Ar compared to the OVX+vehicle controls, the increase of Ct.Ar/Tt.Ar indicates a decrease in bone marrow space. The increase in cortical bone BMD was significant with dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) but not with PTH(1-34), whereas an increase in femoral trabecular bone was only observed with PTH(1-34).’

      (6) The micro-CT analysis of the cortical bone in the OVX model is insufficient. Please indicate whether cross-sectional area has increased. Is there an increase in the size of the bones, or is the increase in cortical thickness due to a narrowing of the marrow space? This may help resolve the apparent contradiction between the cortical thickness data (where there is no difference between the two PTH formulations) and the mechanical testing data (where there is a difference). Please explain this matter better in the manuscript.

      Thank you for your comment.

      (1) The cortical bone area was decreased in the OVX-Vehicle and OVX-<sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) groups but not in the OVX-PTH(1-34) group compared to the Sham group. However, the total bone area was decreased in the PTH(1-34) and <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) treated groups, with no significant difference in the OVX-vehicle group compared to the Sham group. Taken together, there was an increase in cortical thickness due to a narrowing of the bone marrow space in OVX-<sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) groups. Therefore, we revised as above.

      (2) As the reviewer’s suggestion, we revised the results on page 10, line 220-228 as follows.

      - ‘Quantitative micro-computed tomography (μ-CT) analysis of the femurs obtained from each group revealed that, as compared to OVX + vehicle controls, treatment with PTH(1–34) increased femoral trabecular bone volume fraction (Tb.BV/TV) by 121%, cortical bone volume fraction (Ct.BV/TV) by 128%, cortical thickness (Ct.Th) by 115%, cortical area (Ct.Ar) by 110%, and cortical area fraction (Ct.Ar/Tt.Ar) by 118% while decreased total tissue area (Tt.Ar) by 93% (Figure 5A and 5B). Treatment with dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) had similar effects on the femoral cortical bone parameters, as it increased Ct.BMD by 104%, Ct.BV/TV by 125%, Ct.Th by 107%, and Ct.Ar/Tt.Ar by 116%, while decreased Tt.Ar 86% (Figure 5B). Considering the reduction of Tt.Ar and no change of Ct.Ar compared to the OVX+vehicle controls, the increase of Ct.Ar/Tt.Ar indicates a decrease in bone marrow space. The increase in cortical bone BMD was significant with dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) but not with PTH(1-34), whereas an increase in femoral trabecular bone was only observed with PTH(1-34).’

      (7) The evidence that dimeric PTH has a different effect to monomeric PTH is very slim; I am not sure this is a real effect. Such differences take a long time to sort out (e.g. the field is still trying to determine whether teriparatide and abaloparatide are different). I think the authors need to look more carefully at their data - almost all effects are the same. Ultimately, the statement that dimeric PTH may be a more effective anabolic therapy than monomeric PTH are not supported by the data, and this should be removed. There is little to no difference found between normal PTH and the variant in their effects on calcium and phosphate homeostasis or on bone mass. However, the analysis has been somewhat cursory, with insufficient mechanical testing or cortical data presented. Many of the effects seem to be the same (e.g. cortical thickness, P1NP, ALP, vertebral BV/TV and MAR), but the way it is written it sounds like there is a difference. Please remove some of the unfounded claims that you have made in this manuscript.

      Thank you for your insightful comments. We strongly agree with your conclusion that PTH and dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH indeed exhibit similar activities. We have toned-down our statement, however, there are still some elements showing statistical significance that need to be clearly stated. Specifically, when we changed the statistical method from t-test to one-way ANOVA, the significance of bone formation markers were only observed in dimeric PTH treated samples, and we have revised the manuscript of Results section on page 9, line 206-212 as follows to reflect the change.

      - ‘These analyses revealed that both PTH(1-34) and dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) significantly increased the width of the new bone area by approximately four-fold, as compared to the vehicle group (Figure 4B). These findings thus support a capacity of dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) to induce new bone formation in vivo, similar to PTH, despite molecular and structural changes.’

      Although it is unclear whether <sup>R25C</sup>PTH circulate as dimeric form or mutant monomeric form, the absence of bone resorption associated with long-term PTH exposure in the patients suggests the potential for a bone anabolic drug without side effects. Also, continued observation of the recently reported young patient in Denmark is expected to clarify this effect further. However, we acknowledge that our current data alone are insufficient to claim that <sup>R25C</sup>PTH may be a more effective anabolic therapy than wild type PTH, and we have adjusted our tone accordingly.

      (8) Statistical analysis used multiple t-tests. ANOVA would be more appropriate.

      We agree with your suggestion. To compare the means among three or more groups, ANOVA is more appropriate than the t-test. Accordingly, we performed new statistical analyses using one-way and two-way ANOVA. One-way ANOVA was applied to figure 4, 5, and 6 (In previous, figure 5, 6, and 7), and two-way ANOVA was applied to Figure 3, considering both time and treatment variables. We revised some of the figures and descriptions to reflect the changes in significance.

      Thank you for Reviewer #1’s thorough and thoughtful review. We greatly appreciate the suggestions and will incorporate them to enhance the quality of our paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study conducted by Noh et al. investigated the effects of parathyroid hormone (PTH) and a dimeric PTH peptide on bone formation and serum biochemistry in ovariectomized mice as a model for postmenopausal osteoporosis. The authors claimed that the dimeric PTH peptide has pharmacological benefits over PTH in promoting bone formation, despite both molecules having similar effects on bone formation and serum Ca2+. However, after careful evaluation, I am not convinced that this manuscript adds a significant contribution to the literature on bone and mineral research.

      Strengths:

      Experiments are well performed, but strengths are limited to the methodology used to evaluate bone formation and serum biochemical analysis.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Limited significance of this study:

      • This study follows a previous study (not cited) reporting the effect of the dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) on bone regeneration in an osteoporotic dog (Beagle) model (Jeong-Oh Shin et al., eLife 13:RP93830, 2024). It's unclear why the authors tested the dimeric R25C-PTH peptide on a rodent animal model, which has limitations because the healing mechanism of human bone is more similar in dogs than in mice.

      Thank you for your interest in our research. To address the paper by Shin et al. (2024, DOI:10.7554/eLife.93830.1), we would like to clarify that our research on dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) was conducted first. Initially, we confirmed dimerization under in vitro conditions and observed its effects in a mouse model. Recognizing the need for additional animal models, we collaborated with Shin et al.'s team. Due to delays during the submission process, our paper was submitted later, which seems to have led to this misunderstanding. However, Shin et al. (2024) cited our pre-print article on bioRxiv (Noh, M., Che, X., Jin, X., Lee, D. K., Kim, H. J., Park, D. R., ... & Lee, S. (2024). Dimeric R25CPTH (1-34) Activates the Parathyroid Hormone-1 Receptor in vitro and Stimulates Bone Formation in Osteoporotic Female Mice. bioRxiv, 2024-03.DOI: 10.1101/2024.03.13.584815). Both Shin et al., and our mouse work supports the action of dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) on regulating bone metabolism.

      • The authors should clarify why they tested the effects of dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) and not dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-84)?

      Thank you for your valid comments. Here are several reasons why we used the 1-34 fragment peptide in our experiment. Currently, PTH analog peptides for medical purposes include human parathyroid hormone fragment 1-34 (PTH(1-34)) and full-length recombinant human parathyroid hormone (rhPTH(1-84)). PTH(1-34) is used as a bone anabolic agent, while rhPTH(1-84) is used for PTH replacement therapy in hypoparathyroid patients with hypocalcemia. We aimed to compare the bone formation effects of R25CPTH with wild-type PTH, for which PTH(1-34) was deemed more appropriate. Additionally, previous studies have shown that both PTH(1-34) and PTH(1-84) possess equal ligand binding affinity for the PTH1 receptor. Key sites within the first 34 N-terminal amino acids of PTH are critical for high-affinity interactions and receptor activation. Alterations in the N-terminal sequence of PTH(1-84) significantly reduce receptor binding, while truncations at the C-terminal end do not affect receptor affinity. The peptide used in our experiment was synthetic, and if the length does not affect affinity to its receptor affinity, the shorter length of PTH(1-34) made its synthesis more reasonable. Consequently, we tested the effects of PTH(1-34) and dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) due to its known efficacy on bone anabolic effect and relevance in receptor interactions. However, we aim to conduct functional analysis of the dimeric R25CPTH(1-84) in further study.

      • The study is descriptive with no mechanism.

      We recognize that your concern is legitimate. While our study includes descriptive elements, it extends beyond mere observation. The R25CPTH research, which began with a case report, has evolved to utilize molecular techniques to better understand the unique physiological phenomena observed in patients. We have validated the peptide’s dimerization caused by mutations in vitro and assessed their effects in both in vitro cell line models and in vivo mouse models. Although we have not yet confirmed whether <sup>R25C</sup>PTH exists as a dimer or monomer in patient blood, we anticipate it may exist in dimeric form at least some fractions and are currently conducting mass spectrometry on patient blood samples to determine this. Therefore, this paper serves as the first report on this PTH mutant suggesting that it may form a homodimer. Importantly, we are actively investigating the molecular mechanisms and downstream signaling pathways that differentiate normal PTH from dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH. This includes analyzing differences in proteome and transcriptome induced by PTH and dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH and examining the direct molecular characteristics and structural changes responsible for these mutations. Through this comprehensive approach, we aim to provide a detailed mechanistic understanding of <sup>R25C</sup>PTH in the subsequent publication.

      (2) Statistics are inadequately described or performed for the experimental design:

      • The statistical analysis in Figure 5 needs to be written in a way that makes it clearer how statistics were done; t-test or one-way ANOVA?

      Sorry for the inconvenience and thank you for your thorough review. Initially, we conducted the statistical analysis using a t-test. However, during the revision process, we performed a new statistical analysis using one-way ANOVA, as it is more appropriate for comparing the means among three or more groups. Despite this change, there were no differences in statistical significance, so the descriptions remained unchanged.

      • Statistics in Figures 6 and 7 should be performed by one-way ANOVA to compare the mean values of one variable among three or more groups, and not t-test.

      Thank you for your thorough review, and I apologize for any inconvenience. I agree with your suggestion that ANOVA is more appropriate than the t-test for comparing means among three or more groups. Accordingly, we performed new statistical analyses using one-way ANOVA. When we changed the statistical method from t-test to one-way ANOVA, the significance of bone formation markers, P1NP and ALP, appeared only in dimeric R25CPTH and not in wild-type PTH. We have reflected these findings in the text.

      (3) Misleading and confused discussion:

      • The first paragraph lacks clarity in the PTH nomenclature and the authors should provide a clear statement that the PTH mutant found in patients is likely a monomeric R25CPTH(1-84), considering that there has been no proof of a dimeric form.

      Thank you for your insightful comments. I agree that there was some ambiguity in the nomenclature used in the first paragraph of the Discussion section. However, we do not believe that no proof of a dimeric form of the <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-84) mutant necessarily indicates that the PTH mutant in the blood is solely monomeric. Identifying the in vivo structure of <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-84) is one of the goals of our ongoing project. While the exact form of <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-84) in patients is still elusive, we are investigating the possibility that some fraction may exist as a dimer. On page 12, line 274-276, we have revised the content to address this issue and improve clarity as follows.

      - ‘In this study, we show the introduction of a cysteine mutation at the 25th amino acid position of mature parathyroid hormone (<sup>R25C</sup>PTH) facilitates the formation of homodimers comprised of the resulting dimeric R25CPTH peptide in vitro.’

      • Moreover, the authors should discuss the study by White et al. (PNAS 2019), which shows that there are defective PTH1R signaling responses to monomeric R25CPTH(1-34). This results in faster ligand dissociation, rapid receptor recycling, a short cAMP time course, and a loss of calcium ion allosteric effect.

      Sorry for the inconvenience and thank you for your thorough review. The authors were aware of the referenced paper and deeply apologize for its omission during the writing and editing process. Citing this paper will enhance the credibility of our findings. We have now included this citation and made the necessary adjustments to the manuscript of Discussion section on page 12, line 295-296 as follows.

      - ‘We also observed that the potency of cAMP production in cells was lower for dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH as compared to the monomeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH, in accordance with a lower PTH1R-binding affinity. Previous reports indicated that a mutation at the 25th position of PTH results in the loss of calcium ion allosteric effects on monomeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH, leading to faster ligand dissociation, rapid receptor recycling, and a shorter cAMP time course (50). Correspondingly, the weaker receptor affinity and reduced cAMP production observed in dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH suggest a possibility that the formation of a disulfide bond at the 25th position significantly alters the function of PTH as a PTH1R ligand. These structural effects are not yet fully understood and need to be investigated further.’

      • The authors should also clarify what they mean by "the dimeric form of R25CPTH can serve as a new peptide ...(lines 328-329)" The dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) induces similar bone anabolic effects and calcemic responses to PTH(1-34), so it is unclear what the new benefit of the dimeric PTH is.

      We apologize for any confusion in our previous description. We concur that, as you mentioned, PTH and dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH indeed exhibit similar activities. We have toned-down our statement, however, there are still some elements showing statistical significance that need to be clearly stated. Specifically, when we changed the statistical method from t-test to one-way ANOVA, the significance of bone formation markers was only observed in dimeric PTH treated samples, and we have revised the manuscript of Results section on page 9, line 206-212 as follows to reflect the change.

      - ‘These analyses revealed that both PTH(1-34) and dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) significantly increased the width of the new bone area by approximately four-fold, as compared to the vehicle group (Figure 4B). These findings thus support a capacity of dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) to induce new bone formation in vivo, similar to PTH, despite molecular and structural changes.’

      Although it is unclear whether <sup>R25C</sup>PTH circulate as dimeric form or mutant monomeric form, the absence of bone resorption associated with long-term PTH exposure in the patients suggests the potential for a bone anabolic drug without side effects. Also, continued observation of the recently reported young patient in Denmark is expected to clarify this effect further. However, we acknowledge that our current data alone are insufficient to claim that <sup>R25C</sup>PTH may be a more effective anabolic therapy than wild type PTH, and we have adjusted our tone accordingly.

      Thank you for Reviewer #2’s comprehensive and considerate review. We are grateful for the ideas, and we have revised our manuscript accordingly them to improve our paper.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Figure 1D lacks molecular weight markers.

      Thank you for your thorough review. We added protein molecular weight markers in the figure.

      (2) The lack of change in plasma cAMP is very surprising, particularly given that there is no difference in the effect of the two forms of PTH on serum calcium or phosphate, or urinary phosphate. This data is somewhat of a distraction since no effort has been made to assess the difference in the effects of these PTH forms on kidney function. I suggest removing this data and spending time working on the origin of this difference.

      Thank you for your insightful comments and valuable suggestions on our manuscript. We also could not precisely explain the discrepancy between the cell line and animal model experiments. However, since the results were consistently observed, we included them in the paper as they may be significant. We acknowledge that in the context of our current research, these data lack sufficient correlation with other findings. Therefore, we have removed the data about the lack of change in plasma cAMP by PTH injection (Figure 4. Effect of cAMP production by PTH injection in CD1 female mice) and revised the manuscript accordingly (Page 8, line 188-194; page 12, line 301-306; page 19, line 454-456). We are currently conducting further research with multiomics data analysis to elucidate potential differences in the sub-signaling pathways between PTH and dimeric R25CPTH, to identify the specific functions affected by these variations, and to understand the underlying mechanisms. The lack of changes in plasma cAMP levels in vivo will be addressed in a subsequent publication detailing our findings.

      (3) Introduction, line 61. The authors state that "most" anti-resorptive therapies cannot stimulate new bone formation. I don't believe that ANY anti-resorptive therapies stimulate new bone formation! If there is one, this should be referenced.

      Thank you for pointing out important aspects. Romosozumab, a humanized monoclonal anti-sclerostin antibody, has a dual effect by enhancing bone formation and inhibiting bone resorption. Sclerostin, a protein produced by osteocytes, plays a role in the regulation of bone metabolism. It promotes osteoclast differentiation, which is associated with bone resorption, and suppresses osteoblast activity, which is crucial for bone formation. By binding to sclerostin, Romosozumab prevents it from blocking the signaling pathways necessary for osteogenesis. Consequently, Romosozumab therapy not only regulates bone resorption but also affects new bone formation. We added the references to that information.

      (4) The authors tend to include a lot of methods in the results section (e.g. describing the number of replicates, and details of histological analysis). This should be minimized.

      Thank you for your thorough review, and sorry for the inconvenience. We have minimized the methodological details in the results section, ensuring that only essential information for understanding the findings and the procedures remain.

      (5) Lines 302-305: If retaining the blood cAMP data, please provide references for the assertion that renal PTH receptors mediate this response.

      PTH exerts its effects primarily through the PTH1 receptor (PTH1R), a G protein-coupled receptor present in various tissues, including bone and kidney (Chase et al., 1968, Chase et al., 1970). When activated by PTH, this receptor stimulates the production of cyclic AMP (cAMP), with the kidneys playing a significant role in this process (Maeda et al., 2013). In the initial manuscript, the importance of renal PTH receptors in mediating the blood cAMP response may have been overemphasized. We appreciate your feedback on this point, and we have provided references to support this assertion. However, by process following the former ‘Recommendations for the Authors’, we removed the data about the lack of change in plasma cAMP by PTH injection, the description of the renal PTH receptors mediate this response of blood cAMP also removed.

      - Chase, Lewis R., and G. D. Aurbach. "Renal adenyl cyclase: anatomically separate sites for parathyroid hormone and vasopressin." Science 159.3814 (1968): 545-547.DOI:10.1126/science.159.3814.545

      - Chase, Lewis R., and G. D. Aurbach. "The effect of parathyroid hormone on the concentration of adenosine 3', 5'-monophosphate in skeletal tissue in vitro." Journal of Biological Chemistry 245.7 (1970): 1520-1526.DOI:10.1016/S0021-9258(19)77126-9

      - Maeda, Akira, et al. "Critical role of parathyroid hormone (PTH) receptor-1 phosphorylation in regulating acute responses to PTH." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 110.15 (2013): 5864-5869.DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1301674110

      (6) Eosin stains bone pink and haematoxylin stains cells purple. This has been incorrectly described in the manuscript.

      Thank you for your thorough review, and I apologize for any confusion caused by the poor description. It appears that the terms were used interchangeably during the editing process. We have corrected the description in the manuscript and will ensure such mistakes do not occur again in the future.

      (7) Sodium thiosulphate is a fixative for Von Kossa staining, not an agent that removes nonspecific binding.

      Thank you for your careful review. However, there seems to be a misunderstanding of sodium formaldehyde as sodium thiosulfate. A 5% sodium thiosulfate solution is a critical in vitro diagnostic agent used in various staining kits. As a reducing agent, it effectively removes excess silver ions in staining kits based on silver impregnation techniques. In our experiment, sodium thiosulfate was specifically used to remove residual silver ions in Von Kossa staining. For more details, please refer to the following link: https://www.morphisto.de/en/shop/detail/d/Natriumthiosulfat_5//12825/.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Moderate-to-Minor points:

      • Line 73: it's either class B GPCR or secretin receptor family but not class B GPCR family.

      Thank you for your thorough review, and I apologize for any confusion in our previous description. We corrected the description in the manuscript as class B GPCR.

      • Line 79: correct "adenylate cyclase" to "transmembrane adenylate cyclases"

      Thank you for your thorough review, and I apologize for any confusion in our previous description. We corrected the description in the manuscript as transmembrane adenylate cyclases.

      • Line 89: should "hypothyroidism" be "hypoparathyroidism"?

      Thank you for your thorough review, and I apologize for any confusion in our previous description. We corrected the description in the manuscript as hypoparathyroidism.

      • Line 159: all agonists display higher binding affinities when their receptors are coupled to G proteins, so it's unclear why the higher affinity of the dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH(1-34) for the RG state seems to be important for the authors.

      Thank you for your insightful comments. First of all, comparing the binding affinities of the R0 (G protein-uncoupled) and RG (G protein-coupled) conformations of the receptor is inappropriate. This is because the form and size of the radio-label ligand bound to each conformation differ, which consequently affects their binding affinities and, in turn, influences the binding strength of target ligands such as PTH, monomeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH, and dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH. Therefore, it is preferable to compare how the binding strengths of test ligands differ for each conformation. Additionally, the fact that significant binding affinity is lost for R<sup>0</sup> while remaining high for the RG conformation of PTH1R is important because typical PTH exhibits high binding affinity for R0, whereas PTHrP shows higher affinity for the RG conformation. This suggests that dimeric <sup>R25C</sup>PTH may possess distinct molecular characteristics and potentially induce different downstream signaling pathways compared to typical PTH.

      • Line 169-170 and Fig. 2: According to the theory of receptor pharmacology established in the 60s' for native receptors (Arch. Int. Pharmacodyn. 127:459-478 (1960); Arch. Int. Pharmacodyn. 136:385-413 (1962)) and verified later in the 80-90's for recombinant GPCRs, the activity constant (Kact or EC50) value of hormone actions in various tissues or cells is equal to the dissociation constant (Kd) of the hormone when receptors are not overexpressed (EC50 = Kd). When receptors are overexpressed (presence of spare receptors), then EC50 < Kd. Assuming that after Cheng-Prussof correction for data in Fig. 2, IC50 < Ki = Kd, how do the authors explain that IC50 values for RG are about 1-Log lower than EC50s (i.e., EC50 > Kd)?

      We appreciate your insightful comment and fully acknowledge the established theory of receptor pharmacology, which states that Kd equals EC50, and when the receptor is overexpressed, EC50 is less than Kd. After having read your comments, we have revisited this paper Okazaki et al, PNAS, 2008 to better understand the PTH interaction with PTH1R. While our data might appear to contradict this theory, we believe that a direct comparison between the IC50 of RG and the EC50 in Figure 2 may not be entirely appropriate for the following reasons. First, the IC50 was determined from membrane preparations of a receptor-overexpressing cell line (GP-2.3), whereas the EC50 was calculated based on the cAMP response in SaOS-2 cells. These different experimental conditions contribute to the observed discrepancies. Second, the peptides used in the competition assays differ. R<sup>0</sup> utilized radiolabeled PTH(1-34), while RG employed M-PTH(1-15) with several amino acid substitutions and a shorter length. This further complicates a direct comparison between the EC50 and IC50 values in our study.

      Thank you for all the reviewers’ thorough and thoughtful reviews. We greatly appreciate your suggestions and have addressed all the issues to enhance the quality of our paper.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In "Changes in wing morphology..." Roy et al investigate the potential allometric scaling in wing morphology and wing kinematics in 8 different hoverfly species. Their study nicely combines different new and classic techniques, investigating flight in an important, yet understudied alternative pollinator. I want to emphasize that I have been asked to review this from a hoverfly biology perspective, as I do not work on flight kinematics. I will thus not review that part of the work.

      Strengths:

      The paper is well-written and the figures are well laid out. The methods are easy to follow, and the rationale and logic for each experiment are easy to follow. The introduction sets the scene well, and the discussion is appropriate. The summary sentences throughout the text help the reader.

      We thank the reviewer for these positive comments on our study.

      Weaknesses:

      The ability to hover is described as useful for either feeding or mating. However, several of the North European species studied here would not use hovering for feeding, as they tend to land on the flowers that they feed from. I would therefore argue that the main selection pressure for hovering ability could be courtship and mating. If the authors disagree with this, they could back up their claims with the literature.

      We thank the reviewer for this insight on potential selection pressures on hovering flight. As suggested, we now put the main emphasize on selection related to mating flight (lines 106–111).

      On that note, a weakness of this paper is that the data for both sexes are merged. If we agree that hovering may be a sexually dimorphic behaviour, then merging flight dynamics from males and females could be an issue in the interpretation. I understand that separating males from females in the movies is difficult, but this could be addressed in the Discussion, to explain why you do not (or do) think that this could cause an issue in the interpretation.

      We acknowledge that not distinguishing sexes in the flight experiment prevents investigating the hypothesis that selection may act especially on male’s flight. This weakness was not addressed in our first manuscript and is now discussed in the revised Discussion section. We nuanced the interpretation and suggested further investigation on flight dimorphism (lines 726–729).

      The flight arena is not very big. In my experience, it is very difficult to get hoverflies to fly properly in smaller spaces, and definitely almost impossible to get proper hovering. Do you have evidence that they were flying "normally" and not just bouncing between the walls? How long was each 'flight sequence'? You selected the parts with the slowest flight speed, presumably to get as close to hovering as possible, but how sure are you that this represented proper hovering and not a brief slowdown of thrust?

      We very much agree with the reviewer that flight studied in laboratory conditions does not perfectly reflects natural flight behavior. Moreover, having individual hoverflies performing stable hovering in the flight arena, in the intersecting field of view of all three cameras, is quite challenging. Therefore, we do not claim that we studied “true” hovering (i.e. flight speed = 0 m/s), but that we attempted to get as close as possible to true hovering by selecting the flight sections with the lowest flight speeds for our analysis.

      In most animal flight studies, hovering is defined as flight with advance ratios J<0.1, i.e. when the forward flight speed is less than 10% of the wingbeat-induced speed of the wingtip (Ellington, 1984a; Fry et al., 2005; Liu and Sun, 2008). By selecting the low flight-speed wingbeats for our analysis, the mean advance ratio in our experiment was 0.08±0.02 (mean±sd), providing evidence that the hoverflies were operating close to a hovering flight mode. This is explained in both the methods and results sections (lines 228–231 and 467–469, respectively).

      We however acknowledge that this definition of hovering, although generally accepted, is not perfect. We edited the manuscript to clarify that our experiment does not quantify perfect hovering (lines 186–188). We moreover added the mean±sd duration of the recorded flight sequence from which the slowest wingbeat was selected (line 179), as this info was missing, and we further describe the behaviour of the hoverflies during the experiment (lines 168–169).

      Your 8 species are evolutionarily well-spaced, but as they were all selected from a similar habitat (your campus), their ecology is presumably very similar. Can this affect your interpretation of your data? I don't think all 6000 species of hoverflies could be said to have similar ecology - they live across too many different habitats. For example, on line 541 you say that wingbeat kinematics were stable across hoverfly species. Could this be caused by their similar habitat?

      We agree with the reviewer that similarity in habitat and ecology might partially explain the similarity in the wingbeat kinematics that we observe. But this similarity in ecology between the eight studied species is in fact a design feature of our study. Here, we aim to study the effect of size on hoverfly flight, and so we designed our study such that we maximize size differences and phylogenetic spread among the eight species, while minimizing variations in habitat, ecology and flight behavior (~hovering). This allows us to best test for the effect of differences in size on the morphology, kinematics and aerodynamics of hovering flight.

      Despite this, we agree with the reviewer that it would be interesting to test whether the observed allometric morphological scaling and kinematic similarity is also present beyond the species that we studied. In our revision, we therefore extended our analysis to address this question. Performing additional flight experiments and fluid mechanics simulations was beyond the scope of our current study, but extending the morphological scaling analyses was certainly possible.

      In our revised study, we therefore extended our morphological scaling analysis by including the morphology of twenty additional hoverfly species. This extended dataset includes wing morphology data of 74 museum specimens from Naturalis Biodiversity Centre (Leiden, the Netherlands), including two males and two females per species, whenever possible (4.2±1.7 individuals per species (mean±sd)). This extended analysis shows that the allometric scaling of wing morphology with size is robust along the larger sample of species, from a wider range of habitats and ecologies. Nevertheless, we advocate for additional flight measurement in species from different habitats to ascertain the generality of our results (lines 729–732).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary

      Le Roy et al quantify wing morphology and wing kinematics across eight hoverfly species that differ in body mass; the aim is to identify how weight support during hovering is ensured. Wing shape and relative wing size vary significantly with body mass, but wing kinematics are reported to be size-invariant. On the basis of these results, it is concluded that weight support is achieved solely through size-specific variations in wing morphology and that these changes enabled hoverflies to decrease in size throughout their phylogenetic history. Adjusting wing morphology may be preferable compared to the alternative strategy of altering wing kinematics, because kinematics may be under strong evolutionary and ecological constraints, dictated by the highly specialised flight and ecology of the hoverflies.

      Strengths

      The study deploys a vast array of challenging techniques, including flight experiments, morphometrics, phylogenetic analysis, and numerical simulations; it so illustrates both the power and beauty of an integrative approach to animal biomechanics. The question is well motivated, the methods appropriately designed, and the discussion elegantly and convincingly places the results in broad biomechanical, ecological, evolutionary, and comparative contexts.

      We thank the reviewer for appreciating the strengths of our study.

      Weaknesses

      (1) In assessing evolutionary allometry, it is key to identify the variation expected from changes in size alone. The null hypothesis for wing morphology is well-defined (isometry), but the equivalent predictions for kinematic parameters remain unclear. Explicit and well-justified null hypotheses for the expected size-specific variation in angular velocity, angle-of-attack, stroke amplitude, and wingbeat frequency would substantially strengthen the paper, and clarify its evolutionary implications.

      We agree with the reviewer that the expected scaling of wingbeat kinematics with size was indeed unclear in our initial version of the manuscript. In our revised manuscript (and supplement), we now explicitly define how all kinematic parameters should scale with size under kinematic similarity, and how they should scale for maintaining weight support across various sizes. These are explained in the introduction (lines 46–78), method section (lines 316–327), and dedicated supplementary text (see Supplementary Info section “Geometric and kinematic similarity and scaling for weight support”). Here, we now also provide a thorough description of the isometric scaling of morphology, and scaling of the kinematics parameters under kinematic similarity.

      (2) By relating the aerodynamic output force to wing morphology and kinematics, it is concluded that smaller hoverflies will find it more challenging to support their body mass - a scaling argument that provides the framework for this work. This hypothesis appears to stand in direct contrast to classic scaling theory, where the gravitational force is thought to present a bigger challenge for larger animals, due to their disadvantageous surface-to-volume ratios. The same problem ought to occur in hoverflies, for wing kinematics must ultimately be the result of the energy injected by the flight engine: muscle. Much like in terrestrial animals, equivalent weight support in flying animals thus requires a positive allometry of muscle force output. In other words, if a large hoverfly is able to generate the wing kinematics that suffice to support body weight, an isometrically smaller hoverfly should be, too (but not vice versa). Clarifying the relation between the scaling of muscle force input, wing kinematics, and weight support would resolve the conflict between these two contrasting hypotheses, and considerably strengthen the biomechanical motivation and interpretation.

      The reviewer highlights a crucial aspect of our study: our perspective on the aerodynamic challenges associated with becoming smaller or larger. This comment made us realize that our viewpoint might be unconventional regarding general scaling literature and requires further clarification.

      Our approach is focused on the disadvantage of a reduction in size, in contrast with classic scaling theory focusing on the disadvantage of increasing in size. As correctly stated by the reviewer, producing an upward directed force to maintain weight support is often considered as the main challenge, constrained by size. Hereby, researchers often focus on the limitations on the motor system, and specifically muscle force: as animals increase in size, the ability to achieve weight support is limited by muscle force availability. An isometric growth in muscle cannot sustained the increased weight, due to the disadvantageous surface-to-volume ratio.

      In animal flight, this detrimental effect of size on the muscular motor system is also present, particularly for large flying birds. But for natural flyers, there is also a detrimental effect of size on the propulsion system, being the flapping wings. The aerodynamic forces produced by a beating wing scales linearly with the second-moment-of-area of the wing. Under isometry, this second-moment-of-area decreases at higher rate than body mass, and thus producing enough lift for weight support becomes more challenging with reducing size. Because we study tiny insects, our study focuses precisely on this constraint on the wing-based propulsion system, and not on the muscular motor system.

      We revised the manuscript to better explain how physical scaling laws differentially affect force production by the muscular flight motor system and the wingbeat-induced propulsion system (lines 46–78).

      (3) The main conclusion - that evolutionary miniaturization is enabled by changes in wing morphology - is only weakly supported by the evidence. First, although wing morphology deviates from the null hypothesis of isometry, the difference is small, and hoverflies about an order of magnitude lighter than the smallest species included in the study exist. Including morphological data on these species, likely accessible through museum collections, would substantially enhance the confidence that size-specific variation in wing morphology occurs not only within medium-sized but also in the smallest hoverflies, and has thus indeed played a key role in evolutionary miniaturization.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion to add additional specimens from museum collections to strengthen the conclusions of our work. In our revised study, we did so by adding the morphology of 20 additional hoverfly species, from the Naturalis Biodiversity Centre (Leiden, the Netherlands). This extended dataset includes wing morphology data of 74 museum specimens, and whenever possible we sampled at least two males and two females (4.2±1.7 individuals per species (mean±sd)). This extended analysis shows that the allometric scaling of wing morphology with size is robust along the larger sample of species, including smaller ones. We discuss these additional results now explicitly in the revised manuscript (see Discussion).

      Second, although wing kinematics do not vary significantly with size, clear trends are visible; indeed, the numerical simulations revealed that weight support is only achieved if variations in wing beat frequency across species are included. A more critical discussion of both observations may render the main conclusions less clear-cut, but would provide a more balanced representation of the experimental and computational results.

      We agree with the reviewer that variations in wingbeat kinematics between species, and specifically wingbeat frequency, are important and non-negligible. As mentioned by the reviewer, this is most apparent for the fact that weight support is only achieved with the species-specific wingbeat frequency. To address this in a more balanced and thorough way, we revised the final section of our analysis approach, by including changes in wingbeat kinematics to that analysis. By doing so, we now explicitly show that allometric changes in wingbeat frequency are important for maintaining weight support across the sampled size range, but that allometric scaling of morphology has a stronger effect. In fact, the relative contributions of morphology and kinematics to maintaining weight-support across sizes is 81% and 22%, respectively (Figure 7). We discuss this new analysis and results now thoroughly in the revised manuscript (lines 621–629, 650–664), resulting in a more balanced discussion and conclusion about the outcome of our study. We sincerely thank the reviewer for suggesting to look closer into the effect of variations in wingbeat kinematics on aerodynamic force production, as the revised analysis strengthened the study and its results.

      In many ways, this work provides a blueprint for work in evolutionary biomechanics; the breadth of both the methods and the discussion reflects outstanding scholarship. It also illustrates a key difficulty for the field: comparative data is challenging and time-consuming to procure, and behavioural parameters are characteristically noisy. Major methodological advances are needed to obtain data across large numbers of species that vary drastically in size with reasonable effort, so that statistically robust conclusions are possible.

      We thank the reviewer for their encouraging words about the scholarship of our work. We will continue to improve our methods and techniques for performing comparative evolutionary biomechanics research, and are happy to jointly develop this emerging field of research.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      The paper by Le Roy and colleagues seeks to ask whether wing morphology or wing kinematics enable miniaturization in an interesting clade of agile flying insects. Isometry argues that insects cannot maintain both the same kinematics and the same wing morphology as body size changes. This raises a long-standing question of which varies allometrically. The authors do a deep dive into the morphology and kinematics of eight specific species across the hoverfly phylogeny. They show broadly that wing kinematics do not scale strongly with body size, but several parameters of wing morphology do in a manner different from isometry leading to the conclusion that these species have changed wing shape and size more than kinematics. The authors find no phylogenetic signal in the specific traits they analyze and conclude that they can therefore ignore phylogeny in the later analyses. They use both a quasi-steady simplification of flight aerodynamics and a series of CFD analyses to attribute specific components of wing shape and size to the variation in body size observed. However, the link to specific correlated evolution, and especially the suggestion of enabling or promoting miniaturization, is fraught and not as strongly supported by the available evidence.

      We thank the reviewer for the accurate description of our work, and the time and energy put into reviewing our paper. We regret that the reviewer found our conclusions with respect to miniaturization fraught and not strongly supported by the evidence. In our revision, we addressed this by no longer focusing primarily on miniaturization, by extending our morphology analysis to 20 additional species (Figures 4 and 5), improving our analysis of both the kinematics and morphology data (Figure 7), and by discussing our results in a more balanced way (see Discussion). We hope that the reviewer finds the revised manuscript of sufficient quality for publication in eLife.

      The aerodynamic and morphological data collection, modeling, and interpretation are very strong. The authors do an excellent job combining a highly interpretable quasi-steady model with CFD and geometric morphometrics. This allows them to directly parse out the effects of size, shape, and kinematics.

      We thank the reviewer for assessing our experimental and modelling approach as very strong.

      Despite the lack of a relationship between wing kinematics and size, there is a large amount of kinematic variation across the species and individual wing strokes. The absolute differences in Figure 3F - I could have a very large impact on force production but they do indeed not seem to change with body size. This is quite interesting and is supported by aerodynamic analyses.

      We agree with the reviewer that there are important and non-negligible variations in wingbeat kinematics between species. As mentioned by the reviewer, although these kinematics do not significant scale with body mass, the interspecific variations are important for maintaining weight support during hovering flight. We thus also agree with the reviewer that these kinematics variations are interesting and deserve further investigations.

      In our revised study, we did so by including these wingbeat kinematic variations in our analysis on the effect of variations in morphology and kinematics on aerodynamic force production for maintaining in-flight weight support across the sampled size range (lines 422–444, Figure 7). By doing so, we now explicitly show that variations in wingbeat kinematics are important for maintaining weight across sizes, but that allometric scaling of morphology has a stronger effect. In fact, the relative contributions of adaptations in morphology and kinematics to maintaining weight support across sizes is 81% and 22%, respectively (Figure 7). We discuss these new analysis and results now in the revised manuscript (lines 621–629, 650–664), resulting in a more balanced discussion about the relative importance of adaptations in morphology and kinematics. We hope the reviewer appreciates this newly added analysis.

      The authors switch between analyzing their data based on individuals and based on species. This creates some pseudoreplication concerns in Figures 4 and S2 and it is confusing why the analysis approach is not consistent between Figures 4 and 5. In general, the trends appear to be robust to this, although the presence of one much larger species weighs the regressions heavily. Care should be taken in interpreting the statistical results that mix intra- and inter-specific variation in the same trend.

      We agree that it was sometimes unclear whether our analysis is performed at the individual or species level. To improve clarity and avoid pseudoreplication, we now analyze all data at the species level, using phylogenetically informed analyses. Because we think that showing within-species variation is nonetheless informative, we included dedicated figures to the supplement (Figures S3 and S5) in which we show data at the individual level, as equivalent to figures 4 and 5 with data at the species level. Note that this cannot be done for flight data due to our experimental procedure. Indeed, we performed flight experiments with multiple individuals in a single experimental setup, pseudoreplication is thus possible for these flight data. This is explained in the manuscript (lines 167–175). All morphological measurements were however done on a carefully organized series of specimens and thus pseudoreplication is hereby not possible.

      The authors based much of their analyses on the lack of a statistically significant phylogenetic signal. The statistical power for detecting such a signal is likely very weak with 8 species. Even if there is no phylogenetic signal in specific traits, that does not necessarily mean that there is no phylogenetic impact on the covariation between traits. Many comparative methods can test the association of two traits across a phylogeny (e.g. a phylogenetic GLM) and a phylogenetic PCA would test if the patterns of variation in shape are robust to phylogeny.

      After extending our morphological dataset from 8 to 28 species, by including 20 additional species from a museum collection, we increased statistical power and found a significant phylogenetic signal on all morphological traits, except for the second moment of area (lines 458–460, Table S2). Although we do not detect an effect of phylogeny on flight traits, likely due to the limited number of species for which flight was quantified (n=8), we agree with the reviewer’s observation that the absence of a phylogenetic signal does not rule out the potential influence of phylogeny on the covariation between traits. This is now explicitly discussed in the manuscript (lines 599–608). As mentioned in the previous comment, we now test all relationships between body mass and other traits using phylogenetic generalized least squares (PGLS) regressions, therefore accounting for the impact of phylogeny everywhere. The revised analyses produce sensibly similar results as for our initial study, and so the main conclusions remain valid. We sincerely thank the reviewer for their suggestion for revising our statistical analysis, because the revised phylogenetic analysis strengthens our study as a whole.

      The analysis of miniaturization on the broader phylogeny is incomplete. The conclusion that hoverflies tend towards smaller sizes is based on an ancestral state reconstruction. This is difficult to assess because of some important missing information. Specifically, such reconstructions depend on branch lengths and the model of evolution used, which were not specified. It was unclear how the tree was time-calibrated. Most often ancestral state reconstructions utilize a maximum likelihood estimate based on a Brownian motion model of evolution but this would be at odds with the hypothesis that the clade is miniaturizing over time. Indeed such an analysis will be biased to look like it produces a lot of changes towards smaller body size if there is one very large taxa because this will heavily weight the internal nodes. Even within this analysis, there is little quantitative support for the conclusion of miniaturization, and the discussion is restricted to a general statement about more recently diverged species. Such analyses are better supported by phylogenetic tests of directedness in the trait over time, such as fitting a model with an adaptive peak or others.

      We thank the reviewer for their expert insight in our ancestral state estimate of body size. We agree that the accuracy of this estimate is rather low. Based on the comments by the reviewer we have now revised our main analysis and results, by no longer basing it on the apparent evolutionary miniaturization of hoverflies, but instead on the observed variations in size in our studied hoverfly species. As a result, we removed the figure mapping ancestral state estimates (called figure S1 in the first version) from the manuscript. We now explicitly mention that ascertaining the evolutionary directedness of body size is beyond the scope of our work, but that we nonetheless focus on the aerodynamic challenge of size reduction (lines 609–615).

      Setting aside whether the clade as a whole tends towards smaller size, there is a further concern about the correlation of variation in wing morphology and changes in size (and the corresponding conclusion about lack of co-evolution in wing kinematics). Showing that there is a trend towards smaller size and a change in wing morphology does not test explicitly that these two are correlated with the phylogeny. Moreover, the subsample of species considered does not appear to recapitulate the miniaturization result of the larger ancestral state reconstruction.

      As also mentioned above, we agree with the reviewer that we cannot ascertain the trajectory of body size evolution in the diversification of hoverflies. We therefore revised our manuscript such that we do no longer focus explicitly on miniaturization; instead, we discuss how morphology and kinematics scale with size, independently of potential trends over the phylogeny. To do so, we revised the title, abstract results and discussion accordingly.

      Given the limitations of the phylogenetic comparative methods presented, the authors did not fully support the general conclusion that changes in wing morphology, rather than kinematics, correlate with or enable miniaturization. The aerodynamic analysis across the 8 species does however hold significant value and the data support the conclusion as far as it extends to these 8 species. This is suggestive but not conclusive that the analysis of consistent kinematics and allometric morphology will extend across the group and extend to miniaturization. Nonetheless, hoverflies face many shared ecological pressures on performance and the authors summarize these well. The conclusions of morphological allometry and conserved kinematics are supported in this subset and point to a clade-wide pattern without having to support an explicit hypothesis about miniaturization.

      The reviewer argues here fully correct that we should be careful about extending our analysis based on eight species to hoverflies in general, and especially to extend it to miniaturization in this family of insects. As mentioned above, we therefore do no longer specifically focus on miniaturization. Moreover, we extended our analysis by including the morphology of 20 additional species of hoverflies, sampled from a museum collection. We hope that the reviewer agrees with this more balanced and focused discussion of our study.

      The data and analyses on these 8 species provide an important piece of work on a group of insects that are receiving growing attention for their interesting behaviors, accessibility, and ecologies. The conclusions about morphology vs. kinematics provide an important piece to a growing discussion of the different ways in which insects fly. Sometimes morphology varies, and sometimes kinematics depending on the clade, but it is clear that morphology plays a large role in this group. The discussion also relates to similar themes being investigated in other flying organisms. Given the limitations of the miniaturization analyses, the impact of this study will be limited to the general question of what promotes or at least correlates with evolutionary trends towards smaller body size and at what phylogenetic scale body size is systematically decreasing.

      We thank the reviewer for their encouraging words about the importance of our work on hoverfly flight. As suggested by the reviewer, we narrowed down the main question of our study by no longer focusing on apparent miniaturization, but instead on the correlation between wing morphology, wingbeat kinematics and variations in size.

      In general, there is an important place for work that combines broad phylogenetic comparison of traits with more detailed mechanistic studies on a subset of species, but a lot of care has to be taken about how the conclusions generalize. In this case, since the miniaturization trend does not extend to the 8 species subsample of the phylogeny and is only minimally supported in the broader phylogeny, the paper warrants a narrower conclusion about the connection between conserved kinematics and shared life history/ecology.

      We truly appreciated the reviewer’s positive assessment of the importance of our work and study. We also thank the reviewer for their advice to generalize the outcome of our work in a more balanced way. Based on the above comments and suggestions of the reviewer, we did so by revising several aspects of our study, including adding additional species to our study, amending the analysis, and revising the title, abstract, results and discussion sections. We hope that the reviewer warrants the revised manuscript of sufficient quality for final publication in eLife.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Figure S1 is lovely. I would recommend merging it with Figure 1 so that it does not disappear.

      We appreciate the reviewer comment. However, reviewer 3 had several points of concern about the underlying analysis, which made us realize that our ancestral state estimation analysis does not conclusively support a miniaturization trend. We therefore are no longer focusing on miniaturization when interpreting our results.

      Figure 4 is beautiful. The consistent color coding throughout is very helpful.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment.

      Sometimes spaces are missing before brackets, and sometimes there are double brackets, or random line break.

      We did our best to remove these typos.

      Should line 367 refer to Table S2?

      Table S2 is now referred to when mentioning the result of phylogenetic signal (line 460 in the revised manuscript)

      Can you also refer to Figure 2 on line 377?

      Good suggestion, and so we now do so (line 462 in the revised manuscript).

      Lines 497-512: Please refer to relevant figures.

      We now refer to figure 4, and its panels (lines 621–629 in the revised manuscript).

      Figure legend 1: Do you need to say that the second author took the photos?

      We removed this reference.

      Figure legend 4: "(see top of A and B)" is not aligned with the figure layout.

      We corrected this.

      Figure 5 seems to have a double legend, A, B then A, B. Panel A says it's color-coded for body mass, but the figure seems to be color-coded for species.

      Thank you for noting this. We corrected this in the figure legend.

      Figure 6 legend: Can you confidently say that they were hovering, or do you need to modify this to flying?

      The CFD simulations were performed in full hovering (U<sub>¥</sub>=0 m/s), but any true flying hoverflies will per definition never hover perfectly. But as explained in our manuscript, we define a hovering flight mode as flying with advance ratios smaller than 0.1 (Ellington, 1984a). Based on this we can state that our hoverflies were flying in a hovering mode. We hope that the reviewer agrees with this approach.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Below, I provide more details on the arguments made in the public review, as well as a few additional comments and observations; further detailed comments are provided in the word document of the manuscript file, which was shared with the authors via email (I am not expecting a point-by-point reply to all comments in the word document!).

      We thank the reviewer for this detailed list of additional comments, here and in the manuscript. As suggested by the reviewer, we did not provide a point-by-point respond to all comments in the manuscript file, but did take them into account when improving our revised manuscript. Most importantly, we now define explicitly kinematic similarity as the equivalent from morphological similarity (isometry), we added a null hypothesis and the proposed references, and we revised the figures based on the reviewer suggestions.

      Null hypotheses for kinematic parameters.

      Angular amplitudes should be size-invariant under isometry. The angular velocity is more challenging to predict, and two reasonable options exist. Conservation of energy implies:

      W = 1/2 I ω2

      where I is the mass moment of inertia and W is the muscle work output (I note that this result is approximate, for it ignores external forces; this is likely not a bad assumption to first order. See the reference provided below for a more detailed discussion and more complicated calculations). From this expression, two reasonable hypotheses may be derived.

      First, in line with classic scaling theory (Hill, Borelli, etc), it may be assumed that W∝m; isometry implies that I∝m5/3 from which ω ∝m-1/3 follows at once. Note well the implication with respect to eq. 1: isometry now implies F∝m2/3, so that weight support presents a bigger challenge for larger animals; this result is completely analogous to the same problem in terrestrial animals, which has received much attention, but in strong contrast to the argument made by the authors: weight support is more challenging for larger animals, not for smaller animals.

      Second, in line with recent arguments, one may surmise that the work output is limited by the muscle shortening speed instead, which, assuming isometry and isophysiology, implies ω ∝m0 = constant; smaller animals would then indeed be at a seeming disadvantage, as suggested by the authors (but see below).

      The following references contain a more detailed discussion of the arguments for and against these two possibilities:

      Labonte, D. A theory of physiological similarity for muscle-driven motion. PNAS, 2023, 120, e2221217120

      Labonte, D.; Bishop, P.; Dick, T. & Clemente, C. J. Dynamics similarity and the peculiar allometry of maximum running speed. Nat Comms., 2024, 15, 2181

      Labonte, D. & Holt, N. Beyond power limits: the kinetic energy capacity of skeletal muscle. bioRxiv doi: 10.1101/2024.03.02.583090, 2024

      Polet, D. & Labonte, D. Optimising the flow of mechanical energy in musculoskeletal systems through gearing. bioRxiv doi: 10.1101/2024.04.05.588347, 2024

      Labonte et al 2024 also highlight that, due to force-velocity effects, the scaling of the velocity that muscle can impart will fall somewhere in between the extremes presented by the two hypotheses introduced above, so that, in general, the angular velocity should decrease with size with a slope of around -1/6 to -2/9 --- very close to the slope estimated in this manuscript, and to data on other flying animals.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer's detailed insights on null hypotheses for kinematics, along with the accompanying references. As noted in the Public Review section (comment/reply 2.3), our study primarily explores how small-sized insects adapt to constraints imposed by the wing-based propulsion system, rather than by the muscular motor system.

      In this context, we chose to contrast the observed scaling of morphology and flight traits with a hypothetical scenario of geometric similarity (isometry) and kinematic similarity, where all size-independent kinematic parameters remain constant with body mass. While isometric expectations for morphological traits are well-defined (i.e., ), those for kinematic traits are more debatable (as pointed out by the reviewer). For this reason, we believe that adopting a simple approach based on kinematic similarity across sizes (f~m0, etcetera) enhances the interpretability of our results and strengthens the overall narrative.

      Size range

      The study would significantly benefit from a larger size range; it is unreasonable to ask for kinematic measurements, as these experiments become insanely challenging as animals get smaller; but it should be quite straightforward for wing shape and size, as this can be measured with reasonable effort from museum specimens. In particular, if a strong point on miniaturization is to be made, I believe it is imperative to include data points for or close to the smallest species.

      We appreciate that the reviewer recognizes the difficulty of performing additional kinematic measurements. Collecting additional morphological data to extend the size range was however feasible. In our revised study, we therefore extended our morphological scaling analysis by including the morphology of twenty additional hoverfly species. This extended dataset includes wing morphology data of 74 museum specimens (4.2±1.7 individuals per species (mean±sd)) from Naturalis Biodiversity Centre (Leiden, the Netherlands). This increased the studied mass range of our hoverfly species from 5 100 mg to 3 132 mg, and strengthened our results and conclusions on the morphological scaling in hoverflies.

      Is weight support the main problem?

      Phrasing scaling arguments in terms of weight support is consistent with the classic literature, but I am not convinced this is appropriate (neither here nor in the classic scaling literature): animals must be able to move, and so, by strict physical necessity, muscle forces must exceed weight forces; balancing weight is thus never really a concern for the vast majority of animals. The only impact of the differential scaling may be a variation in peak locomotor speed (this is unpacked in more detail in the reference provided above). In other words, the very fact that these hoverfly species exist implies that their muscle force output is sufficient to balance weight, and the arguably more pertinent scaling question is how the differential scaling of muscle and weight force influences peak locomotor performance. I appreciate that this is beyond the scope of this study, but it may well be worth it to hedge the language around the presentation of the scaling problem to reflect this observation, and to, perhaps, motivate future work.

      We agree with the reviewer that a question focused on muscle force would be inappropriate for this study, as muscle force and power availability is not under selection in the context of hovering flight, but instead in situation where producing increased output is advantageous (for example during take-off or rapid evasive maneuvers). But as explained in our revised manuscript (lines 81-85), we here do not focus on the scaling of the muscular motor with size and throughout phylogeny, but instead we focus on scaling of the flapping wing-based propulsion system. For this system there are known physical scaling laws that predict how this propulsion system should scale with size (in morphology and kinematics) for maintaining weight-support across sizes. In our study, we test in what way hoverflies achieve this weight support in hovering flight.

      Of course, it would be interesting to also test how peak thrust is produced by the propulsion system, for example during evasive maneuvers. In the revised manuscript, we now explicitly mention this as potential future research (lines 733–735).

      Other relevant literature

      Taylor, G. & Thomas, A. Evolutionary biomechanics: selection, phylogeny, and constraint, Oxford University Press, 2014

      This book has quite detailed analyses of the allometry of wing size and shape in birds in an explicit phylogenetic context. It was a while ago that I read it, but I think it may provide much relevant information for the discussion in this work.

      Schilder, R. J. & Marden, J. H. A hierarchical analysis of the scaling of force and power production by dragonfly flight motors J. Exp. Biol., 2004, 207, 767

      This paper also addresses the question of allometry of flight forces (if in dragonflies). I believe it is relevant for this study, as it argues that positive allometry of forces is partially achieved through variation of the mechanical advantage, in remarkable resemblance to Biewener's classic work on EMA in terrestrial animals (this is discussed and unpacked in more detail also in Polet and Labonte, cited above). Of course, the authors should not measure the mechanical advantage of this work, but perhaps this is an interesting avenue for future work.

      We thank the reviewer for these valuable literature suggestions and the insights they offer for future work.

      More generally, I thought the introduction misses an opportunity to broaden the perspective even further, by making explicit that running and flying animals face an analogous problem (with swimming likely being a curious exception!); some other references related to the role of phylogeny in biomechanical scaling analyses are provided in the comments in the word file.

      The introduction has been revised to better emphasize the generality of the scaling question addressed in our study. Specifically, we now explicitly highlight the similar constraints associated with increasing or decreasing size in both terrestrial and flying animals (lines 53–59). We thank the reviewer for this suggestion, which has improved our manuscript.

      Numerical results vs measurements

      I felt that the paper did not make the strongest possible use of the very nice numerical simulations. Part of the motivation, as I understood it, was to conduct more complex simulations to also probe the validity of the quasi-steady aerodynamics assumption on which eq. 1 is based. All parameters in eq. 1 are known (or can be approximated within reasonable bounds) - if the force output is evaluated analytically, what is the result? Is it comparable to the numerical simulations in magnitude? Is it way off? Is it sufficient to support body mass? The interplay between experiments and numerics is a main potential strength of the paper, which in my opinion is currently sold short.

      We agree with the reviewer that we did not make full use of the numerical simulations results. In fact, we did so deliberately because we aim to focus more on the fluid mechanics of hoverfly flight in a future study. That said, we thank the reviewer for suggesting to use the CFD for validating our quasi-steady model. We now do so by correlating the vertical aerodynamic force with variations in morphology and kinematics (revised Figure 7A). The striking similarity between the predicted and empirical fit shows that the quasi-steady model captures the aerodynamic force production during hovering flight surprisingly well.

      Statistics

      There are errors in the Confidence Intervals in Tab 2 (and perhaps elsewhere). Please inspect all tables carefully, and correct these mistakes. The disagreement between confidence intervals and p-values suggests a significant problem with the statistics; after a brief consultation with the authors, it appears that this result arises because Standard Major Axis regression was used (and not Reduced Major Axis regression, as stated in the manuscript). This is problematic because SMA confidence intervals become unreliable if the variables are uncorrelated, as appears to be the case for some parameters here (see https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/lmodel2/vignettes/mod2user.pdf for more details on this point). I strongly recommend that the authors avoid SMA, and use MA, RMA or OLS instead. My recommendation would be to use RMA and OLS to inspect if the conclusions are consistent, in which case one can be shown in the SI; this is what I usually do in scaling papers, as there are some colleagues who have very strong and diverging opinions about which technique is appropriate. If the results differ, further critical analysis may be required.

      The reviewer correctly identified an error in the statistical approach: a Standard Major Axis was indeed used under inappropriate conditions. Following Reviewer #3’s comments, the expanded sample size and the resulting increase in statistical power to detect phylogenetic signal, our revised analysis now accounts for phylogenetic effects in these regressions. We therefore now report the results from Phylogenetic Least Square (PGLS) regressions (the phylogenetic equivalent of an OLS).

      Figures

      Please plot 3E-F in log space, add trendlines, and the expectation from isometry/isophysiology, to make the presentation consistent, and comparison of effect strengths across results more straightforward.

      The reviewer probably mentioned Figure 3F-I and not E-F (the four panels depicting the relationships between kinematics variables and body mass). As requested, we added the expectation for kinematic similarity to the revised figure, but prefer to not show the non-significant PGLS fits, as they are not used in any analysis. For completeness, we did add the requested figure in log-space with all trendlines to the supplement (Figure S2), and refer to it in the figure legend.

      The visual impression of the effect strength in D is a bit misleading, due to the very narrow y-axis range; it took me a moment to figure this out. I suggest either increasing the y-range to avoid this incorrect impression or to notify the reader explicitly in the caption.

      We believe the reviewer is referring to Figure 4D. As rightly pointed out, variation in non-dimensional second moment of area() is very low among species, which is consistent with literature (Ellington, 1984b). We agree that the small range on the y-axis might be confusing, and thus we increased it somewhat. More importantly, we now show, next to the trend line, the scaling for isometry (~m<sup>0</sup>) and for single-metric weight support. Especially the steepness of the last trend line shows the relatively small effect of on aerodynamic force production. This is even further highlighted by the newly added pie charts of the relative allometric scaling factor, where variations in contribute only 5% to maintaining weight support across sizes.

      Despite this small variation, these adaptations in wing shape are still significant and are highly interesting in the context of our work. We now discuss this in more detail in the revised manuscript (lines 645–649).

      In Figure 7b, one species appears as a very strong outlier, driving the regression result. Data of the same species seems to be consistent with the other species in 7a, c, and d - where does this strong departure come from? Is this data point flagged as an outlier by any typical regression metric (Cook's distance etc) for the analysis in 7b?

      We agree with the reviewer: the species in dark green (Eristalis tenax) appears as an outlier on the in Figure 7B ( vs. vertical force) in our original manuscript. This is most likely due to the narrow range of variation in ( — as the reviewer pointed out in the previous comment — which amplifies differences among species. We expanded the y-axis range in the revised Figure 7, so that the point no longer appears as an outlier (see updated graph, now on Figure 7F).

      In Figure 1, second species from the top, it reads "Eristalix tenax" when it is "Eristalis tenax" (relayed info by the Editor).

      Corrected.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I really like the biomechanical and aerodynamic analyses and think that these alone make for a strong paper, albeit with narrower conclusions. I think it is perfectly valid and interesting to analyze these questions within the scope of the species studied and even to say that these patterns may therefore extend to the hoverflies as a whole group given the great discussion about the shared ecology and behavior of much of the clade. However, the extension to miniaturization is too tenuous. This would need much more support, especially from the phylogenetic methods which are not rigorously presented and likely need additional tests.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive words about our study. We agree that our attempt to infer the directedness of size evolution was too simplistic, and thus the miniaturization aspect of our study would need more support. As suggested by the reviewer, we therefore do no longer focus on miniaturization, and thus removed these aspects from the title, abstract and main conclusion of our revised manuscript.

      There is a lot of missing data about the tree and the parameters used for the phylogenetic methods that should be added (especially branch lengths and models of evolution). Phylogenetic tests for the relationships of traits should go beyond the analysis of phylogenetic signals in the specific traits. My understanding is also that phylogenetic signal is not properly interpreted as a "control" on the effect of phylogeny. The PCA should probably be a phylogenetic PCA with a corresponding morphospace reconstruction.

      We agree with the reviewer that our phylogenetic approach based on phylogenetic signal only was incomplete. In our revised manuscript, we not only test for phylogenetic signal but also account for phylogeny in all regressions between traits and body mass using Phylogenetic Generalized Least Squares (PGLS) regressions. Additionally, we have provided more details about the model of evolution and the parameter estimation method in the Methods section (275–278).

      Following the reviewer suggestion, in our revised study we now also performed a phylogenetic PCA instead of a traditional PCA on the superimposed wing shape coordinates. The resulting morphospace was however almost identical to the traditional PCA (Figure S4). We nonetheless included it in the revised manuscript for completion. We thank the reviewer for this suggestion, as the revised phylogenetic analysis strengthens our study as a whole.

      For the miniaturization conclusion, my suggestion is a more rigorous phylogenetic analysis of directionality in the change in size across the larger phylogeny. However, even given this, I think the conclusion will be limited because it appears this trend does not hold up under the 8 species subsample. To support that morphology is evolutionarily correlated with miniaturization would for me require an analysis of how the change in body size relates to the change in wing shape and kinematics which is beyond what a scaling relationship does. In other words, you would need to test if the changes in body morphology occur in the same location phylogenetically with a shrinking of body size. I think even more would be required to use the words "enable" or "promote" when referring to the relationship of morphology to miniaturization because those imply evolutionary causality to me. To me, this wording would at least require an analysis that shows something like an increase in the ability of the wing morphological traits preceding the reduction in body size. Even that would likely be controversial. Both seem to be beyond the scope of what you could analyze with the given dataset.

      As mentioned in reply 3.1, we agree with the reviewer that the miniaturization aspect of our study would need more support. And thus, as suggested by the reviewer, we therefore do no longer focus primarily on miniaturization, by removing these aspects from the title, abstract and main conclusion of our revised manuscript.

      The pseudoreplication should be corrected. You can certainly report the data with all individuals, but you should also indicate in all cases if the analysis is consistent if only species are considered.

      As mentioned in the Public Review section, our revised approach avoids pseudoreplication by analyzing all data at the species level. Nonetheless, we have included supplementary figures (Figures S3 and S5) to visualize within-species variation.

      My overall suggestion is to remove the analysis of miniaturization and cast the conclusions with respect to the sampling you have. Add a basic phylogenetic test for the correlated trait analysis (like a phylogenetic GLM) which will likely still support your conclusions over the eight species and emphasize the specific conclusion about hoverflies' scaling relationships. I think that is still a very good study better supported by the extent of the data.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive assessment of our study, and their detailed and constructive feedback. As suggested by the reviewer, miniaturization is no longer the primary focus of our study, and we revised our analysis by extending the morphology dataset to more species, and by using phylogenetic regressions.

      References

      Ellington C. 1984a. The aerodynamics of hovering insect flight. III. Kinematics. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London B: Biological Sciences 305:41–78.

      Ellington C. 1984b. The aerodynamics of insect flight. II. Morphological parameters. Phil Trans R Soc Lond B 305:17–40.

      Fry SN, Sayaman R, Dickinson MH. 2005. The aerodynamics of hovering flight in Drosophila. Journal of Experimental Biology 208:2303–2318. doi:10.1242/jeb.01612

      Liu Y, Sun M. 2008. Wing kinematics measurement and aerodynamics of hovering droneflies. Journal of Experimental Biology 211:2014–2025. doi:10.1242/jeb.016931

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Detecting unexpected epistatic interactions among multiple mutations requires a robust null expectation - or neutral function - that predicts the combined effects of multiple mutations on phenotype, based on the effects of individual mutations. This study assessed the validity of the product neutrality function, where the fitness of double mutants is represented as the multiplicative combination of the fitness of single mutants, in the absence of epistatic interactions. The authors utilized a comprehensive dataset on fitness, specifically measuring yeast colony size, to analyze epistatic interactions.

      The study confirmed that the product function outperformed other neutral functions in predicting the fitness of double mutants, showing no bias between negative and positive epistatic interactions. Additionally, in the theoretical portion of the study, the authors applied a wellestablished theoretical model of bacterial cell growth to simulate the growth rates of both single and double mutants under various parameters. The simulations further demonstrated that the product function was superior to other functions in predicting the fitness of hypothetical double mutants. Based on these findings, the authors concluded that the product function is a robust tool for analyzing epistatic interactions in growth fitness and effectively reflects how growth rates depend on the combination of multiple biochemical pathways.

      Strengths:

      By leveraging a previously published extensive dataset of yeast colony sizes for single- and double-knockout mutants, this study validated the relevance of the product function, commonly used in genetics to analyze epistatic interactions. The finding that the product function provides a more reliable prediction of double-mutant fitness compared to other neutral functions offers significant value for researchers studying epistatic interactions, particularly those using the same dataset.

      Notably, this dataset has previously been employed in studies investigating epistatic interactions using the product neutrality function. The current study's findings affirm the validity of the product function, potentially enhancing confidence in the conclusions drawn from those earlier studies. Consequently, both researchers utilizing this dataset and readers of previous research will benefit from the confirmation provided by this study's results.

      Weaknesses:

      This study exhibits several significant logical flaws, primarily arising from the following issues: a failure to differentiate between distinct phenotypes, instead treating them as identical; an oversight of the substantial differences in the mechanisms regulating cell growth between prokaryotes and eukaryotes; and the adoption of an overly specific and unrealistic set of assumptions in the mutation model. Additionally, the study fails to clearly address its stated objective-investigating the mechanistic origin of the multiplicative model. Although it discusses conditions under which deviations occur, it falls short of achieving its primary goal. Moreover, the paper includes misleading descriptions and unsubstantiated reasoning, presented without proper citations, as if they were widely accepted facts. Readers should consider these issues when evaluating this paper. Further details are discussed below.

      (1) Misrepresentation of the dataset and phenotypes

      The authors analyze a dataset on the fitness of yeast mutants, describing it as representative of the Malthusian parameter of an exponential growth model. However, they provide no evidence to support this claim. They assert that the growth of colony size in the dataset adheres to exponential growth kinetics; in contrast, it is known to exhibit linear growth over time, as indicated in [Supplementary Note 1 of https://doi.org/10.1038/nmeth.1534]. Consequently, fitness derived from colony size should be recognized as a different metric and phenotype from the Malthusian parameter. Equating these distinct phenotypes and fitness measures constitutes a fundamental error, which significantly compromises the theoretical discussions based on the Malthusian parameter in the study.

      The reviewer is correct in pointing out that colony-size measurements are distinct from exponential growth kinetics. We acknowledge that our original text implied that the dataset directly measured the exponential growth rate (Malthusian parameter), when in fact it was measuring yeast colony expansion rates on solid media. Colony growth under these conditions often follows a biphasic pattern in that there is typically an initial microscopic phase where cells can grow exponentially, but as the colony expands further then the growth dynamics become more linear (Meunier and Choder 1999). We have revised our text to state clearly what the experiment measured.

      However, while colony size does not exhibit exponential growth kinetics, several studies have argued that the rate of colony expansion is related to the exponential growth rate of cells growing in non-limiting nutrient conditions in liquid culture. This is because colony growth is dominated by cells at the colony boundaries that have access to nutrients and are in exponential growth. Cells in the colony interior lack nutrients and therefore contribute little to colony growth. This has been shown both in theoretical and experimental studies, finding that the linear growth rate of the colony is directly linked to the single-cell exponential growth rate (Pirt 1967; Gray and Kirwan 1974; Korolev et al. 2012; Gandhi et al. 2016; Meunier and Choder 1999). In particular, the above studies suggest that the linear colony growth rate is directly proportional to the square root of the exponential growth rate. Therefore, one would expect that the validity of the product model for one fitness measure implies its validity for the other measure. In addition, colony size was found to be highly correlated with the exponential growth rate of cells in non-limiting nutrients in liquid culture (Baryshnikova et al. 2010; Zackrisson et al. 2016; Miller et al. 2022). For these reasons, we treated the colony size and exponential growth rate as interchangeable in our original manuscript. 

      To address the important point raised by the reviewer, we now explain more clearly in the text what the analyzed data on colony size show and why we believe it is reflective of the exponential growth rate. Finally, we note that our results supporting the product neutrality function are consistent with the work of (Mani et al. 2008), which used smaller datasets based on liquid culture growth rates (Jasnos and Korona 2007; Onge et al. 2007).

      The text in Section 2.3 now reads:

      “Having verified empirically that the Product neutrality function is supported by the latest data for cell proliferation, we now turn our attention to its origins. Addressing this question requires some mechanistic model of biosynthesis. However, most mechanistic models of growth apply directly to single cells in rich nutrient conditions, which may not directly apply to the SGA measurements of colony expansion rates. In particular, colony growth has been shown to follow a biphasic pattern (Meunier et al. 1999). A first exponential phase is followed by a slower linear phase as the colony expands. Previous modeling and empirical work indicates that this second linear expansion rate reflects the underlying exponential growth of cells in the periphery of the colony (Pirt 1967; Gray et al. 1974; Gandhi et al. 2016; Baryshnikova, Costanzo, S. Dixon, et al. 2010; Zackrisson et al. 2016; Miller et al. 2022). More precisely, mathematical models show the linear colony-size expansion rate is directly proportional to the square root of the exponential growth rate under non-limiting conditions. Intuitively, this relationship arises because colony growth is dominated by the expansion of the population of cells in an annulus at the colony border that are exposed to rich nutrient conditions. These cells expand at a rate similar to the exponential rate of cells growing in a rich nutrient liquid culture. In contrast, the cells in the interior of the colony experience poor nutrient conditions, grow very slowly, and do not contribute to colony growth.

      This intimate relationship between both proliferation rates allows us to explore the origin of the Product neutrality function in mechanistic models of cell growth. Indeed, if colony-based fitnesses follow a Product model, then

      where the superscript c indicates colony-based values for the fitness W and the growth rate λ. Taking into account the relationship between single-cell exponential growth rates and colony growth rates, we can write

      where the superscript l denotes liquid cultures. Combining these expressions, we obtain

      In other words, from the perspective of the Product neutrality function, fitnesses based on colony expansion rates are equivalent to fitnesses based on single-cell exponential growth rates. The prevalence of the Product neutrality model—both in the SGA data and in previous studies on datasets from liquid cultures (Jasnos et al. 2007; Onge et al. 2007; Mani et al. 2008)—encourages the exploration of its origin in mechanistic models of cell growth.”

      (2) Misapplication of prokaryotic growth models

      The study attempts to explain the mechanistic origin of the multiplicative model observed in yeast colony fitness using a bacterial cell growth model, particularly the Scott-Hwa model. However, the application of this bacterial model to yeast systems lacks valid justification. The Scott-Hwa model is heavily dependent on specific molecular mechanisms such as ppGppmediated regulation, which plays a crucial role in adjusting ribosome expression and activity during translation. This mechanism is pivotal for ensuring the growth-dependency of the ribosome fraction in the proteome, as described in [https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2201585119]. Unlike bacteria, yeast cells do not possess this regulatory mechanism, rendering the direct application of bacterial growth models to yeast inappropriate and potentially misleading. This fundamental difference in regulatory mechanisms undermines the relevance and accuracy of using bacterial models to infer yeast colony growth dynamics.

      If the authors intend to apply a growth model with macroscopic variables to yeast double-mutant experimental data, they should avoid simply repurposing a bacterial growth model. Instead, they should develop and rigorously validate a yeast-specific growth model before incorporating it into their study.

      There is nothing that is prokaryote specific in the Scott-Hwa model. It does not include the specific ppGpp mechanism to regulate ribosome fraction that does not exist in eukaryotes.  The general features of the model, like how the ribosome fraction is proportional to the growth rate have indeed been validated in yeast (Metzl-Raz et al. 2017; Elsemman et al. 2022; Xia et al. 2022). Performing a detailed physiological analysis of budding yeast across varying growth conditions in order to build a more extensive model is beyond the scope of this work. Finally, we note that the Weiße model, which we also analyzed, is also generic and has replicated empirical measurements both from bacteria and yeast (Weiße et al. 2015).

      To clarify this point in the text, we have added the following to Section 2.3: 

      “Experimental measurements in other organisms suggest that the observations leading to this model, including that the cellular ribosome fraction increases with growth rate, are in fact generic and also seen in the yeast S. cerevisiae (Metzl-Raz et al. 2017; Elsemman et al. 2022; Xia et al. 2022).”

      (3) Overly specific assumptions in the theoretical model

      he theoretical model in question assumes that two mutations affect only independent parameters of specific biochemical processes, an overly restrictive premise that undermines its ability to broadly explain the occurrence of the multiplicative model in mutations. Additionally, experimental evidence highlights significant limitations to this approach. For example, in most viable yeast deletion mutants with reduced growth rates, the expression of ribosomal proteins remains largely unchanged, in direct contradiction to the predictions of the Scott-Hwa model, as indicated in [https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.28034]. This discrepancy emphasizes that the ScottHwa model and its derivatives do not reliably explain the growth rates of mutants based on current experimental data, suggesting that these models may need to be reevaluated or alternative theories developed to more accurately reflect the complex dynamics of mutant growth.

      In the data from the Barkai lab referenced by the reviewer (reproduced below), we see that the ribosomal transcript fraction is in fact proportional to growth rate in response to gene deletions in contradiction to the reviewer’s interpretation. However, it is notable that the ribosomal transcript fraction is a bit higher for a given growth rate if that growth rate is generated by a mutation rather than generated by a suboptimal nutrient condition. We know that the very simple Scott-Hwa model is not a perfect representation of the cell. Nevertheless, it does recapitulate important aspects of growth physiology and therefore we thought it is useful to analyze its response to mutations and compare those responses to the different neutrality functions.  We never claimed the Scott-Hwa model was a perfect model and fully agree with the referee’s statement above that “... these models may need to be reevaluated, or alternative theories developed to more accurately reflect the complex dynamics of mutant growth.” Indeed, we say as much in our discussion where we wrote: 

      “While we focused on coarse-grained models for their simplicity and mechanistic interpretability, they might be too simple to effectively model large double-mutant datasets and the resulting double-mutant fitness distributions. We therefore expect the combination of high throughput genetic data with the analysis of larger-scale models, for instance based on Flux Balance Analysis, Metabolic Control Analysis, or whole-cell modeling, to lead to important complementary insights regarding the regulation of cell growth and proliferation.”

      To further clarify this point, we discuss and cite the Barkai lab data for gene deletions see Figure 2 from Metzl-Raz et al. 2017.

      (4) Lack of clarity on the mechanistic origin of the multiplicative model

      The study falls short of providing a definitive explanation for its primary objective: elucidating the "mechanistic origin" of the multiplicative model. Notably, even in the simplest case involving the Scott-Hwa model, the underlying mechanistic basis remains unexplained, leaving the central research question unresolved. Furthermore, the study does not clearly specify what types of data or models would be required to advance the understanding of the mechanistic origin of the multiplicative model. This omission limits the study's contribution to uncovering the biological principles underlying the observed fitness patterns.”

      We appreciate the reviewer’s interest in a more complete mechanistic explanation for the product model of fitness. The primary goal of this study was to explore the validity of the Product model from the perspective of coarse-grained models of cell growth, and to extract mechanistic insights where possible. We view our work as a first step toward a deeper understanding of how double-mutant fitnesses combine, rather than a final, all-encompassing theory. As the referee notes, we are limited by the current state of the field, which has an incomplete understanding of cell growth. 

      Nonetheless, our analysis does propose concrete, mechanistically informed explanations. For example, we highlight how growth-optimizing feedback—such as cells’ ability to reallocate ribosomes or adjust proteome composition—naturally leads to multiplicative rather than additive or minimal fitness effects. We also link the empirical deviations from pure multiplicative behavior to differences in how specific pathways re-balance under perturbation, and we suggest that a product-like rule emerges when multiple interconnected processes each partially limit cell growth.

      In the discussion, we clarify what additional data and models we think will be required to advance this question. Namely, we propose extending our approach through larger-scale, more detailed modeling frameworks – that may include explicit modeling of ppGpp or TOR activities in bacteria or eukaryotic cells, respectively. We also emphasize the importance of refining the measurement of cell growth rates to uncover subtle deviations from the product rule that could yield greater mechanistic insight. By integrating high-throughput genetic data with nextgeneration computational models, it should be possible to hone in on the specific biological principles (e.g., metabolic bottlenecks, resource reallocation) that underlie the multiplicative neutrality function.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The paper deals with the important question of gene epistasis, focusing on asking what is the correct null model for which we should declare no epistasis.

      In the first part, they use the Synthetic Genetic Array dataset to claim that the effects of a double mutation on growth rate are well predicted by the product of the individual effects (much more than e.g. the additive model). The second (main) part shows this is also the prediction of two simple, coarse-grained models for cell growth.

      I find the topic interesting, the paper well-written, and the approach innovative.

      One concern I have with the first part is that they claim that:

      "In these experiments, the colony area on the plate, a proxy for colony size, followed exponential growth kinetics. The fitness of a mutant strain was determined as the rate of exponential growth normalized to the rate in wild type cells."

      There are many works on "range expansions" showing that colonies expand at a constant velocity, the speed of which scales as the square root of the growth rate (these are called "Fisher waves", predicted in the 1940', and there are many experimental works on them, e.g. https://www.pnas.org/doi/epdf/10.1073/pnas.0710150104) If that's the case, the area of the colony should be proportional to growth_rate X time^2 , rather than exp(growth_rate*time), so the fitness they might be using here could be the log(growth_rate) rather than growth_rate itself? That could potentially have a big effect on the results.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful remarks. As they rightly pointed out, a large body of literature supports that colonies expand at constant velocity both from a theoretical and experimental standpoint. 

      As discussed in the answer to the first question of Reviewer 1, this body of work also suggests that the linear expansion rate of the colony front is directly related to the single-cell exponential growth rate of the cells at the periphery. Hence, although the macroscopic colony growth may not be exponential in time, measuring colony size (or radial expansion) across different genotypes still provides a consistent and meaningful proxy for comparing their underlying growth capabilities. 

      In particular, these studies suggest (consistently with Fisher-wave theory) that the linear growth rate of the colony 𝐾 is proportional to the square root of the exponential growth rate 𝜆. Under the assumption that the product model is valid for a given double mutant and for the exponential growth rate, we would have that

      The associated wave-front velocities would then be predicted to be

      In other words, if the product model is valid for fitness measures based on exponential growth rates, it should also be valid for fitness measures based on linear colony growth rates. 

      We now include this discussion in the revised version of Section 2.3.

      Additional comments/questions:

      (1) What is the motivation for the model where the effect of two genes is the minimum of the two?

      The motivation for the minimal model is the notion that there might be a particular process that is rate-limiting for growth due to a mutation. In this case, a mutation in process X makes it really slow and process Y proceeds in parallel and has plenty of time to finish its job before cell division takes place. In this case, even a mutation to process Y might not slow down growth because there is an excess amount of time for it to be completed. Thus, the double mutant might then be anticipated to have the growth rate associated with the single mutation to process X. We now add a similar description when we introduce the different neutrality functions in Section 2.1.

      (2) How seriously should we take the Scott-Hwa model? Should we view it as a toy model to explain the phenomenon or more than that? If the latter, then since the number of categories in the GO analysis is much more than two (47?) in many cases the analysis of the experimental data would take pairs of genes that both affect one process in the Scott-Hwa model - and then the product prediction should presumably fail? The same comment applies to the other coarse-grained model.

      From our perspective, models like the Scott-Hwa model constitute the simplest representation of growth based on data that is not trivial. Moreover, the Scott-Hwa model is able to incorporate interactions between two different biological processes. We believe models, like the Scott-Hwa and Weiße models, should be viewed as more than mere toy models because they have been backed up by some empirical data, such as that showing the ribosome fraction increases with growth rate. However, the Scott-Hwa model is inherently limited by its low dimensionality and relative simplicity. We do not claim that such models can provide a full picture of the cell. As argued in the main text, we have chosen to focus on such models because of their tractability and in the hope of extracting general principles. We nonetheless agree with the reviewer that they do not have the capacity to represent interactions between genes in the same biological process. We now note this limitation in the text. 

      (3) There are many works in the literature discussing additive fitness contributions, including Kaufmann's famous NK model as well as spin-glass-type models (e.g. Guo and Amir, Science Advances 2019, Reddy and Desai, eLife 2021, Boffi et al., eLife 2023) These should be addressed in this context.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this part of the literature. We do believe these works constitute a relevant body of work tackling the emergence of epistasis patterns from a theoretical grounding, and now reference and discuss them in the text. 

      (4) The experimental data is for deletions, but it would be interesting to know the theoretical model's prediction for the expected effects of beneficial mutations and how they interact since that's relevant (as mentioned in the paper) for evolutionary experiments. Perhaps in this case the question of additive vs. multiplicative matters less since the fitness effects are much smaller.

      This is an interesting question. Since mutations increasing the growth rate generated by gene deletions or other systematic perturbations are rare, we did not focus on them. Of course, as the reviewer notes, in the case of evolution experiments, these fitness enhancing mutations are selected for. To address the reviewer's question, we can first consider the Scott-Hwa model. In this case, the analytical solution remains valid in the case of fitness enhancing mutations so that the fitness of the double mutant will be the product neutrality function multiplied by an additional interaction term (see Figure 3). The mathematical derivation predicts that the double mutant fitness can potentially grow indefinitely. Indeed, the denominator can be equal to zero in some cases. In simulations, we see that the observation for deleterious mutations does not seem to hold for beneficial mutations (new supplementary Figure S5 shown below). Indeed, no model seems to replicate double mutant fitnesses much better than any other. This suggests that the growth-optimizing feedback we discuss in section 2.3 may have compound effects that ultimately make double-mutant fitnesses much larger than any model predicts.

      We recognize this may be an important point, and discuss it in detail in the revised section 2.3 as well as in the discussion.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      We thank you for the time you took to review our work and for your feedback! We have made only minor changes in this submission and primarily wanted to respond to the concerns raised by reviewer 1.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      Fluorescence imaging has become an increasingly popular technique for monitoring neuronal activity and neurotransmitter concentrations in the living brain. However, factors such as brain motion and changes in blood flow and oxygenation can introduce significant artifacts, particularly when activitydependent signals are small. Yogesh et al. quantified these effects using GFP, an activity-independent marker, under two-photon and wide-field imaging conditions in awake behaving mice. They report significant GFP responses across various brain regions, layers, and behavioral contexts, with magnitudes comparable to those of commonly used activity sensors. These data highlight the need for robust control strategies and careful interpretation of fluorescence functional imaging data. 

      Strengths: 

      The effect of hemodynamic occlusion in two-photon imaging has been previously demonstrated in sparsely labeled neurons in V1 of anesthetized animals (see Shen and Kara et al., Nature Methods, 2012). The present study builds on these findings by imaging a substantially larger population of neurons in awake, behaving mice across multiple cortical regions, layers, and stimulus conditions. The experiments are extensive, the statistical analyses are rigorous, and the results convincingly demonstrate significant GFP responses that must be accounted for in functional imaging experiments. 

      In the revised version, the authors have provided further methodological details that were lacking in the previous version, expanded discussions regarding alternative explanations of these GFP responses as well as potential mitigation strategies. They also added a quantification of brain motion (Fig. S5) and the fraction of responsive neurons when conducting the same experiment using GCaMP6f (Fig. 3D-3F), among other additional information. 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) The authors have now included a detailed methodology for blood vessel area quantification, where they detect blood vessels as dark holes in GFP images and measure vessel area by counting pixels below a given intensity threshold (line 437-443). However, this approach has a critical caveat: any unspecific decrease in image fluorescence will increase the number of pixels below the threshold, leading to an apparent increase in blood vessel area, even when the actual vessel size remains unchanged. As a result, this method inherently introduces a positive correlation between fluorescence decrease and vessel dilation, regardless of whether such a relationship truly exists. 

      To address this issue, I recommend labelling blood vessels with an independent marker, such as a red fluorescence dye injected into the bloodstream. This approach would allow vessel dilation to be assessed independently of GFP fluorescence -- dilation would cause opposite fluorescence changes in the green and red channels (i.e., a decrease in green due to hemodynamic occlusion and an increase in red due to the expanding vessel area). In my opinion, only when such ani-correlation is observed can one reliably infer a relationship between GFP signal changes and blood vessel dynamics. 

      Because this relationship is central to the author's conclusion regarding the nature of the observed GFP signals, including this experiment would greatly strengthen the paper's conclusion. 

      This is correct – a more convincing demonstration that blood vessels dilate or constrict anticorrelated with apparent GFP fluorescence would be a separate blood vessel marker. However, we don’t think this experiment is worth doing, as it is also not conclusive in the sense the reviewer may have in mind. The anticorrelation does not mean that occlusion drives all of the observed effect. Our main argument is instead that there is no other potential source than hemodynamic occlusion with sufficient strength that we can think of. The experiment one would want to do is block hemodynamic changes and demonstrate that the occlusion explains all of the observed changes. 

      (2) Regarding mitigation strategy, the authors advocate repeating key functional imaging experiments using GFP, and state that their aim here is to provide a control for their 2012 study (Keller et al., Neuron). Given this goal, I find it important to discuss how these new findings impact the interpretation of their 2012 results, particularly given the large GFP responses observed. 

      We are happy to discuss how the conclusions of our own work are influenced by this (see more details below), but the important response of the field should probably be to revisit the conclusions of a variety of papers published in the last two decades. This goes far beyond what we can do here. 

      For example, Keller et al. (2012) concluded that visuomotor mismatch strongly drives V1 activity (Fig. 3A in that study). However, in the present study, mismatch fails to produce any hemodynamic/GFP response (Fig. 3A, 3B, rightmost bar), and the corresponding calcium response is also the weakest among the three tested conditions (Fig. 3D). How do these findings affect their 2012 conclusions? 

      The average calcium response of L2/3 neurons to visuomotor mismatch is probably roughly similar to the average calcium response at locomotion onset (both are on the order of 1% to 5%, depending on indicator, dataset, etc.). In the Keller et al. (2012) paper, locomotion onset was about 1.5% and mismatch about 3% (see Figure 3A in that paper). What we quantify in Figure 3 of the paper here is the fraction of responsive neurons. Thus, mismatch drives strong responses in a small subset of neurons (approx. 10%), while locomotion drives a combination of a weak responses in a large fraction of the neurons (roughly 70%) and also large responses in a subset of neurons. A strong signal in a subset of neurons is what one would expect from a neuronal response, a weak signal from many neurons would be indicative of a contaminating signal. This all appears consistent. 

      Regarding influencing the conclusions of earlier work, the movement related signals described in the Keller et al. (2012) paper are probably overestimated, but are also apparent in electrophysiological recordings (Saleem et al., 2013). Thus, the locomotion responses reported in the Keller et al. (2012) paper are likely too high, but locomotion related responses in V1 are very likely real. The only conclusion we draw in the Keller et al. 2012 paper on the strength of the locomotion related responses is that they are smaller than mismatch responses (this conclusion is unaffected by hemodynamic contamination). In addition, the primary findings of the Keller et al. (2012) paper are all related to mismatch, and these conclusions are unaffected. 

      Similarly, the present study shows that GFP reveals twice as many responsive neurons as GCaMP during locomotion (Fig. 3A vs. Fig. 3D, "running"). Does this mean that their 2012 conclusions regarding locomotion-induced calcium activity need reconsideration? Given that more neurons responded with GFP than with GCaMP, the authors should clarify whether they still consider GCaMP a reliable tool for measuring brain activity during locomotion. 

      Comparisons of the fraction of significantly responsive neurons between GFP and GCaMP are not straightforward to interpret. One needs to factor in the difference in signal to noise between the two sensors. (Please note, we added the GCaMP responses here upon request of the reviewers). Note, there is nothing inherently wrong with the data, and comparisons within dataset are easily made (e.g. more grating responsive neurons than running responsive neurons in GCaMP, and vice versa with GFP). The comparison across datasets is not as straightforward as we define “responsive neurons” using a statistical test that compares response to baseline activity for each neuron. GFP labelled neurons are very bright and occlusion can easily be detected. Baseline fluorescence in GCaMP recordings is much lower and often close to or below the noise floor of the data (i.e. we only see the cells when they are active). Thus occlusion in GCaMP recordings is preferentially visible for cells that have high baseline fluorescence. Thus, in the GCaMP data we are likely underestimating the fraction of responsive neurons. 

      Regarding whether GCaMP (or any other fluorescence indicator used in vivo) is a reliable tool, we are not sure we understand. Whenever possible, fluorescence-sensor based measurements should be corrected for hemodynamic contamination – to quantify locomotion related signals this will be more difficult than e.g. for mismatch, but that does not mean it is not reliable. 

      (3) More generally, the author should discuss how functional imaging data should be interpreted going forward, given the large GFP responses reported here. Even when key experiments are repeated using GFP, it is not entirely clear how one could reliably estimate underlying neuronal activity from the observed GFP and GCaMP responses. 

      We are not sure we have a good answer to this question. The strategy for addressing this problem will depend on the specifics of the experiment, and the claims. Take the case of mismatch. Here we have strong calcium responses and no evidence of GFP responses. We would argue that this is reasonable evidence that the majority of the mismatch driven GCaMP signal is likely neuronal. For locomotion onsets, both GFP and GCaMP signals go in the same direction on average. Then one could use a response amplitude distribution comparison to conservatively exclude all neurons with a GCaMP amplitude lower than e.g. the 99th percentile of the GFP response. Etc. But we don’t think there is an easy generalizable fix for this problem.  

      For example, consider the results in Fig. 3A vs. 3D: how should one assess the relative strength of neuronal activity elicited by running, grating, or visuomotor mismatch? Does mismatch produce the strongest neuronal activity, since it is least affected by the hemodynamic/GFP confounds (Fig. 3A)? Or does mismatch actually produce the weakest neuronal activity, given that both its hemodynamic and calcium responses are the smallest? 

      See above, the reviewer may be confounding “response strength” with “fraction of responsive neurons” here. Regarding the relationship between neuronal activity and hemodynamics, it is very likely not just the average activity of all neurons, but a specific subset that drives blood vessel constriction and dilation. This would of course be a very interesting question to answer for the interpretation of hemodynamic based measurements of brain activity, like fMRI, but goes beyond the aim of the current paper.  

      In my opinion, such uncertainty makes it difficult to robustly interpret functional imaging results. Simply repeating experiments with GFP does not fully resolve this issue, as it does not provide a clear framework for quantifying the underlying neuronal activity. Does this suggest a need for a better mitigation strategy? What could these strategies be? 

      If the reviewer has a good idea - we would be all ears. We don’t have a better idea currently.  

      In my opinion, addressing these questions is critical not only for the authors' own work but also for the broader field to ensure a robust and reliable interpretation of functional imaging data. 

      We agree, having a solution to this problem would be important – we just don’t have one.  

      (4) The authors now discuss various alternative sources of the observed GFP signals. However, I feel that they often appear to dismiss these possibilities too quickly, rather than appreciating their true potential impacts (see below). 

      For example, the authors argue that brain movement cannot explain their data, as movement should only result in a decrease in observed fluorescence. However, while this might hold for x-y motion, movement in the axial (z) direction can easily lead to both fluorescence increase and decrease. Neurons are not always precisely located at the focal plane -- some are slightly above or below. Axial movement in a given direction will bring some cells into focus while moving others out of focus, leading to fluorescence changes in both directions, exactly as observed in the data (see Fig. S2). 

      The reviewer is correct that z-motion can result in an increase of apparent fluorescence (just like x-y motion can as well). On average however, just like with x-y motion, z-motion will always result in a decrease. This assumes that the user selecting regions of interest (the outlines of cells used to quantify fluorescence), will select these such that the distribution of cells selected centers on the zplane of the image. Thus, the distribution of z-location of the cell relative to the imaging plane will be some Gaussian like distribution centered on the z-plane of the image (with half the cell above the zplane and half below). Because the peak of the distribution is located on the z-plane at rest, any zmovement, up or down, will move away from the peak of the distribution (i.e. most cells will decrease in fluorescence). This is the same argument as for why x-y motion always results in decreases (assuming the user selects regions of interest centered on the location of the cells at rest).  

      Furthermore, the authors state that they discard data with 'visible' z-motion. However, subtle axial movements that escape visual detection could still cause fluorescence fluctuations on the order of a few percent, comparable to the reported signal amplitudes. 

      Correct, but as explained above, z-motion will always result in average decreases of average fluorescence as explained above.  

      Finally, the authors state that "brain movement kinematics are different in shape than the GFP responses we observe". However, this appears to contradict what they show in Fig. 2A. Specifically, the first example neuron exhibits fast GFP transients locked to running onset, with rapid kinematics closely matching the movement speed signals in Fig. S5A. These fast transients are incompatible with slower blood vessel area signals (Fig. 4), suggesting that alternative sources could contribute significantly. 

      We meant population average responses here. We have clarified this. Some of the signals we observed do indeed look like they could be driven by movement artifacts (whole brain motion, or probably more likely blood vessel dilation driven tissue distortion). We show this neuron to illustrate that this can also happen. However, to illustrate that this is a rare event we also show the entire distribution of peak amplitudes and the position in the distribution this neuron is from.  

      In sum, the possibility that alternative signal sources could significantly contribute should be taken seriously and more thoroughly discussed. 

      All possible sources (we could think of) are explicitly discussed (in roughly equal proportion). Nevertheless, the reviewer is correct that our focus here is almost exclusively on the what we think is the primary source of the problem. Given that – in my experience – this is also the one least frequently considered, I think the emphasis on – what we think is – the primary contributor is warranted.  

      (5) The authors added a quantification of brain movement (Fig. S5) and claim that they "only find detectable brain motion during locomotion onsets and not the other stimuli." However, Fig. S5 presents brain 'velocity' rather than 'displacement'. A constant (non-zero) velocity in Fig. S5 B-D indicates that the brain continues to move over time, potentially leading to significant displacement from its initial position across all conditions. While displacement in the x-y plane are corrected, similar displacement in the z direction likely occurs concurrently and cannot be easily accounted for. To assess this possibility, the authors should present absolute displacement relative to pre-stimulus frames, as displacement -- not velocity -- determines the size of movement-related fluorescence changes. 

      We use brain velocity here as a natural measure when using frame times as time bins. The problem with using a signed displacement is that if different running onsets move the brain in opposing directions, this can average out to zero. To counteract this, one can take the absolute displacement in a response window away from the position in a baseline time window. If this is done with time bins that correspond to frame times, this just becomes displacement per frame, i.e. velocity. Using absolute changes in displacement (i.e. velocity) is more sensitive than signed displacement. The responses for signed displacement are shown below (Author response image 1), but given that we are averaging signed quantities here, the average is not interpretable. 

      Author response image 1.

      Average signed brain displacement. 

      Regarding a constant drift, the reviewer might be misled by the fact that the baseline brain velocity is roughly 1 pixel per frame. The registration algorithm works in integer number of pixels only. 1 pixel per frame corresponds roughly to the noise floor of the registration algorithm. Registrations are done independently for each frame. As a consequence, the registration oscillates between a shift of 17 and 18 pixels – frame by frame – if the actual shift is somewhere between 17 and 18 pixels. This “jitter” results in a baseline brain velocity of about 1 pixel per frame. 

      (6) In line 132-133, the authors draw an analogy between the effect of hemodynamic occlusion and liquid crystal display (LCD) function. However, there are fundamental differences between the two. LCDs modulate light transmission by rotating the polarization of light, which then passes through a crossed polarizer. In contrast, hemodynamic occlusion alters light transmission by changing the number and absorbance properties of hemoglobin. Additionally, LCDs do not involve 'emission' light - backillumination travels through the liquid crystal layer only once, whereas hemodynamic occlusion affects both incoming excitation light and the emitted fluorescence. Given these fundamental differences, the LCD analogy may not be entirely appropriate. 

      The mechanism of occlusion is, as the reviewer correctly points out, different for an LCD. In both cases however, there is a variable occluder between a light source and an observer. The fact that with hemodynamic occlusion the light passes through the occluder twice (excitation and emission) does not appear to hamper the analogy to us. We have rephrased to highlight the time varying occlusion part. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      -  Approach 

      In this study, Yogesh et al. aimed at characterizing hemodynamic occlusion in two photon imaging, where its effects on signal fluctuations are underappreciated compared to that in wide field imaging and fiber photometry. The authors used activity-independent GFP fluorescence, GCaMP and GRAB sensors for various neuromodulators in two-photon and widefield imaging during a visuomotor context to evaluate the extent of hemodynamic occlusion in V1 and ACC. They found that the GFP responses were comparable in amplitude to smaller GCaMP responses, though exhibiting context-, cortical region-, and depth-specific effects. After quantifying blood vessel diameter change and surrounding GFP responses, they argued that GFP responses were highly correlated with changes in local blood vessel size. Furthermore, when imaging with GRAB sensors for different neuromodulators, they found that sensors with lower dynamic ranges such as GRAB-DA1m, GRAB-5HT1.0, and GRAB-NE1m exhibited responses most likely masked by the hemodynamic occlusion, while a sensor with larger SNR, GRAB-ACh3.0, showed much more distinguishable responses from blood vessel change. They thoroughly investigate other factors that could contribute to these signals and demonstrate hemodynamic occlusion is the primary cause. 

      -  Impact of revision 

      This is an important update to the initial submission, adding much supplemental imaging and population data that provide greater detail to the analyses and increase the confidence in the authors conclusions. 

      Specifically, inclusion of the supplemental figures 1 and 2 showing GFP expression across multiple regions and the fluorescence changes of thousands of individual neurons provides a clearer picture of how these effects are distributed across the population. Characterization of brain motion across stimulation conditions in supplemental figure 5 provides strong evidence that the fluorescence changes observed in many of the conditions are unlikely to be primarily due to brain motion associated imaging artifacts. The role of vascular area on fluorescence is further supported by addition of new analyses on vasoconstriction leading to increased fluorescence in Figures 4C1-4, complementing the prior analyses of vasodilation. 

      The expansion of the discussion on other factors that could lead to these changes is thorough and welcome. The arguments against pH playing a factor in fluorescence changes of GFP, due to insensitivity to changes in the expected pH range are reasonable, as are the other discussed potential factors. 

      With respect to the author's responses to prior critique, we agree that activity dependent hemodynamic occlusion is best investigated under awake conditions. Measurement of these dynamics under anesthesia could lead to an underestimation of their effects. Isoflurane anesthesia causes significant vasodilation and a large reduction in fluorescence intensity in non-functional mutant GRABs. This could saturate or occlude activity dependent effects. 

      - Strengths 

      This work is of broad interest to two photon imaging users and GRAB developers and users. It thoroughly quantifies the hemodynamic driven GFP response and compares it to previously published GCaMP data in a similar context, and illustrates the contribution of hemodynamic occlusion to GFP and GRAB responses by characterizing the local blood vessel diameter and fluorescence change. These findings provide important considerations for the imaging community and a sobering look at the utility of these sensors for cortical imaging. 

      Importantly, they draw clear distinctions between the temporal dynamics and amplitude of hemodynamic artifacts across cortical regions and layers. Moreover, they show context dependent (Dark versus during visual stimuli) effects on locomotion and optogenetic light-triggered hemodynamic signals. 

      The authors suggest that signal to noise ratio of an indicator likely affects the ability to separate hemodynamic response from the underlying fluorescence signal. With a new analysis (Supplemental Figure 4) They show that the relative degree of background fluorescence does not affect the size of the artifact. 

      Most of the first generation neuromodulator GRAB sensors showed relatively small responses, comparable to blood vessel changes in two photon imaging, which emphasizes a need for improved the dynamic range and response magnitude for future sensors and encourages the sensor users to consider removing hemodynamic artifacts when analyzing GRAB imaging data. 

      - Weaknesses 

      The largest weakness of the paper remains that, while they convincingly quantify hemodynamic artifacts across a range of conditions, they provide limited means of correcting for them. However they now discuss the relative utility of some hemodynamic correction methods (e.g. from Ocana-Santero et al., 2024). 

      The paper attributes the source of 'hemodynamic occlusion' primarily to blood vessel dilation, but leaves unanswered how much may be due to shifts in blood oxygenation. Figure 4 directly addresses the question of how much of the signal can be attributed to occlusion by measuring the blood vessel dilation, and has been improved by now showing positive fluorescence effects with vasoconstriction. They now also discuss the potential impact of oxygenation. 

      Along these lines, the authors carefully quantified the correlation between local blood vessel diameter and GFP response (or neuropil fluorescence vs blood vessel fluorescence with GRAB sensors). We are left to wonder to what extent does this effect depend on proximity to the vessels? Do GFP/ GRAB responses decorrelate from blood vessel activity in neurons further from vessels (refer to Figure 5A and B in Neyhart et al., Cell Reports 2024)? The authors argue that the primary impact of occlusion is from blood vessels above the plane of imaging, but without a vascular reconstruction, their evidence for this is anecdotal. 

      The choice of ACC as the frontal region provides a substantial contrast in location, brain movement, and vascular architecture as compared to V1. As the authors note, ACC is close to the superior sagittal sinus and thus is the region where the largest vascular effects are likely to occur. A less medial portion of M2 may have been a more appropriate comparison. The authors now include example imaging fields for ACC and interesting out-of-plane vascular examples in the supplementary figures that help assess these impacts. 

      -Overall Assessment 

      This paper is an important contribution to our understanding of how hemodynamic artifacts may corrupt GRAB and calcium imaging, even in two-photon imaging modes. While it would be wonderful if the authors were able to demonstrate a reliable way to correct for hemodynamic occlusion which did not rely on doing the experiments over with a non-functional sensor or fluorescent protein, the careful measurement and reporting of the effects here is, by itself, a substantial contribution to the field of neural activity imaging. It's results are of importance to anyone conducting two-photon or widefield imaging with calcium and GRAB sensors and deserves the attention of the broader neuroscience and invivo imaging community. 

      We agree with this assessment.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors aimed to investigate if hemodynamic occlusion contributes to fluorescent signals measured with two-photon microscopy. For this, they image the activity-independent fluorophore GFP in 2 different cortical areas, at different cortical depths and in different behavioral conditions. They compare the evoked fluorescent signals with those obtained with calcium sensors and neuromodulator sensors and evaluate their relationship to vessel diameter as a readout of blood flow.

      They find that GFP fluorescence transients are comparable to GCaMP6f stimuli-evoked signals in amplitude, although they are generally smaller. Yet, they are significant even at the single neuronal level. They show that GFP fluorescence transients resemble those measured with the dopamine sensor GRABDA1m and the serotonin sensor GRAB-5HT1.0 in amplitude an nature, suggesting that signals with these sensors are dominated by hemodynamic occlusion. Moreover, the authors perform similar experiments with wide-field microscopy which reveals the similarity between the two methods in generating the hemodynamic signals. Together the evidence presented calls for the development and use of high dynamic range sensors to avoid measuring signals that have another origin from the one intended to measure. In the meantime, the evidence highlights the need to control for those artifacts such as with the parallel use of activity independent fluorophores.

      Strengths:

      - Comprehensive study comparing different cortical regions in diverse behavioral settings in controlled conditions.

      - Comparison to the state-of-the-art, i.e. what has been demonstrated with wide-field microscopy.

      - Comparison to diverse activity-dependent sensors, including the widely used GCaMP.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have addressed my concerns well. I have no further comments.

      We agree with this assessment.  


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      The major changes to the manuscript are:

      (1) Re-wrote the discussion, going over all possible sources of the signals we describe.

      (2) We added a quantification of brain motion as Figure S5.

      (3) We added an example of blood vessel contraction as Figure 4C.

      (4) We added data on the fraction of responsive neurons when measured with GCaMP as Figures 3D-3F.

      (5) We added example imaging sites from all imaged regions as Figure S1.

      (6) We added GFP response heatmaps of all neurons as Figure S2.

      (7) We add a quantification of the relationship between GFP response amplitude and expression level Figure S4.

      A detailed point-by-point response to all reviewer concerns is provided below.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Fluorescence imaging has become an increasingly popular technique for monitoring neuronal activity and neurotransmitter concentrations in the living brain. However, factors such as brain motion and changes in blood flow and oxygenation can introduce significant artifacts, particularly when activity-dependent signals are small. Yogesh et al. quantified these effects using GFP, an activity-independent marker, under two-photon and wide-field imaging conditions in awake behaving mice. They report significant GFP responses across various brain regions, layers, and behavioral contexts, with magnitudes comparable to those of commonly used activity sensors. These data highlight the need for robust control strategies and careful interpretation of fluorescence functional imaging data.

      Strengths:

      The effect of hemodynamic occlusion in two-photon imaging has been previously demonstrated in sparsely labeled neurons in V1 of anesthetized animals (see Shen and Kara et al., Nature Methods, 2012). The present study builds on these findings by imaging a substantially larger population of neurons in awake, behaving mice across multiple cortical regions, layers, and stimulus conditions. The experiments are extensive, the statistical analyses are rigorous, and the results convincingly demonstrate significant GFP responses that must be accounted for in functional imaging experiments. However, whether these GFP responses are driven by hemodynamic occlusion remains less clear, given the complexities associated with awake imaging and GFP's properties (see below).

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors primarily attribute the observed GFP responses to hemodynamic occlusion. While this explanation is plausible, other factors may also contribute to the observed signals. These include uncompensated brain movement (e.g., axial-direction movements), leakage of visual stimulation light into the microscope, and GFP's sensitivity to changes in intracellular pH (see e.g., Kneen and Verkman, 1998, Biophysical Journal). Although the correlation between GFP signals and blood vessel diameters supports a hemodynamic contribution, it does not rule out significant contributions from these (or other) factors. Consequently, whether GFP fluorescence can reliably quantify hemodynamic occlusion in two-photon microscopy remains uncertain.

      We concur; our data do not conclusively prove that the effect is only driven by hemodynamic occlusion. We have attempted to make this clearer in the text throughout the manuscript. In particular we have restructured the discussion to focus on this point. Regarding the specific alternatives the reviewer mentions here:

      a) Uncompensated brain motion. While this can certainly contribute, we think the effect is negligible in our interpretation for the following reasons. First, just to point out the obvious, as with all two-photon data we acquire in the lab, we only keep data with no visible z-motion (axial). Second, and more importantly, uncompensated brain motion results in a net decrease of fluorescence. As regions of interest (ROI) are selected to be centered on neurons (as opposed to be randomly selected, or next to, or above or below), movement will – on average – result in a decrease in fluorescence, as neurons are moved out of the ROIs. In the early days of awake two-photon imaging (when preps were still less stable) – we used this movement onset decrease in fluorescence as a sign that running onsets were selected correctly (i.e. with low variance). See e.g. the dip in the running onset trace at time zero in figure 3A of (Keller et al., 2012). Third, we find no evidence for any brain motion in the case of visual stimulation, while the GFP responses during locomotion and visual stimulation are of similar magnitude. We have added a quantification of brain motion (Figure S5) and a discussion of this point to the manuscript.

      b) Leakage of stimulation light. First, all light sources in the experimental room (the projector used for the mouse VR, the optogenetic stimulation light, as well as the computer monitors used to operate the microscope) are synchronized to the turnaround times of the resonant scanner of the two-photon microscope. Thus, light sources in the room are turned off for each line scan of the resonant scanner and turned on in the turnaround period. With a 12kHz scanner this results in a light cycle of 24 kHz (see Leinweber et al., 2014 for details). While the system is not perfect, we can occasionally get detectable light leak responses at the image edges (in the resonant axis as a result of the exponential off kinetics of many LEDs & lasers), these are typically 2 orders of magnitude smaller than what one would get without synchronizing, and far smaller than a single digit percentage change in GFP responses, and only detectable at the image edges. Second, while in visual cortex, dark running onsets are different from running onsets with the VR turned on (Figures 5A and B), they are indistinguishable in ACC (Figure 5C). Thus, stimulation light artefacts we can rule out.

      c) GFP’s sensitivity to changes in pH. Activity results in a decrease in neuronal intracellular pH (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14506304/, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24312004/) – decreasing pH decreases GFP fluorescence (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9512054/).

      To reiterate, we don’t think hemodynamic occlusion is the only possible source to the effects we observe, but we do think it is most likely the largest.

      (2) Regardless of the underlying mechanisms driving the GFP responses, these activity-independent signals must be accounted for in functional imaging experiments. However, the present manuscript does not explore potential strategies to mitigate these effects. Exploring and demonstrating even partial mitigation strategies could have significant implications for the field.

      We concur – however, in brief, we think the only viable mitigation strategy (we are capable of), is to repeat functional imaging with GFP imaging. To unpack this: There have been numerous efforts to mitigate these hemodynamic effects using isosbestic illumination. When we started to use such strategies in the lab for widefield imaging, we thought we would calibrate the isosbestic correction using GFP recordings. The idea was that if performed correctly, an isosbestic response should look like a GFP response. Try as we may, we could not get the isosbestic responses to look like a GFP response. We suspect this is a result of the fact that none of the light sources we used were perfectly match to the isosbestic wavelength the GCaMP variants we used (not for a lack of trying, but neither lasers nor LEDs were available for purchase with exact wavelength matches). Complicating this was then also the fact that the similarity (or dissimilarity) between isosbestic and GFP responses was a function of brain region. Importantly however, just because we could not successfully apply isosbestic corrections, of course does not mean it cannot be done. Hence for the widefield experiments we then resorted to mitigating the problem by repeating the key experiments using GFP imaging (see e.g. (Heindorf and Keller, 2024)). Note, others have also argued that the best way to correct for hemodynamic artefacts is a GFP recording based correction (Valley et al., 2019). A second strategy we tried was using a second fluorophore (i.e. a red marker) in tandem with a GCaMP sensor. The problem here is that the absorption of the two differs markedly by blood and once again a correction of the GCaMP signal using the red channel was questionable at best. Thus, we think the only viable mitigation strategy we have found is GFP recordings and testing whether the postulated effects seen with calcium indicators are also present in GFP responses. This work is our attempt at a post-hoc mitigation of the problem of our own previous two-photon imaging studies.

      (3) Several methodology details are missing from the Methods section. These include: (a) signal extraction methods for two-photon imaging data (b) neuropil subtraction methods (whether they are performed and, if so, how) (c) methods used to prevent visual stimulation light from being detected by the two-photon imaging system (d) methods to measure blood vessel diameter/area in each frame. The authors should provide more details in their revision.

      Please excuse, this was an oversight. All details have been added to the methods.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this study, Yogesh et al. aimed at characterizing hemodynamic occlusion in two photon imaging, where its effects on signal fluctuations are underappreciated compared to that in wide field imaging and fiber photometry. The authors used activity-independent GFP fluorescence, GCaMP and GRAB sensors for various neuromodulators in two-photon and widefield imaging during a visuomotor context to evaluate the extent of hemodynamic occlusion in V1 and ACC. They found that the GFP responses were comparable in amplitude to smaller GCaMP responses, though exhibiting context-, cortical region-, and depth-specific effects. After quantifying blood vessel diameter change and surrounding GFP responses, they argued that GFP responses were highly correlated with changes in local blood vessel size. Furthermore, when imaging with GRAB sensors for different neuromodulators, they found that sensors with lower dynamic ranges such as GRAB-DA1m, GRAB5HT1.0, and GRAB-NE1m exhibited responses most likely masked by the hemodynamic occlusion, while a sensor with larger SNR, GRAB-ACh3.0, showed much more distinguishable responses from blood vessel change.

      Strengths

      This work is of broad interest to two photon imaging users and GRAB developers and users. It thoroughly quantifies the hemodynamic driven GFP response and compares it to previously published GCaMP data in a similar context, and illustrates the contribution of hemodynamic occlusion to GFP and GRAB responses by characterizing the local blood vessel diameter and fluorescence change. These findings provide important considerations for the imaging community and a sobering look at the utility of these sensors for cortical imaging.

      Importantly, they draw clear distinctions between the temporal dynamics and amplitude of hemodynamic artifacts across cortical regions and layers. Moreover, they show context dependent (Dark versus during visual stimuli) effects on locomotion and optogenetic light-triggered hemodynamic signals.

      Most of the first generation neuromodulator GRAB sensors showed relatively small responses, comparable to blood vessel changes in two photon imaging, which emphasizes a need for improved the dynamic range and response magnitude for future sensors and encourages the sensor users to consider removing hemodynamic artifacts when analyzing GRAB imaging data.

      Weaknesses

      (1) The largest weakness of the paper is that, while they convincingly quantify hemodynamic artifacts across a range of conditions, they do not quantify any methods of correcting for them. The utility of the paper could have been greatly enhanced had they tested hemodynamic correction methods (e.g. from Ocana-Santero et al., 2024) and applied them to their datasets. This would serve both to verify their findings-proving that hemodynamic correction removes the hemodynamic signal-and to act as a guide to the field for how to address the problem they highlight.

      See also our response to reviewer 1 comment 2.

      In the Ocana-Santero et al., 2024 paper they also first use GFP recordings to identify the problem. The mitigation strategy they then propose, and use, is to image a second fluorophore that emits at a different wavelength concurrently with the functional indicator. The authors then simply subtract (we think – the paper states “divisive”, but the data shown are more consistent with “subtractive” correction) the two signals to correct for hemodynamics. However, the paper does not demonstrate that the hemodynamic signals in the red channel match those in the green channel. The evidence presented that this works is at best anecdotal. In our hands this does not work (meaning the red channel does not match GFP recordings), we suspect this is a combination of crosstalk from the simultaneously recorded functional channel and the fact that hemodynamic absorption is strongly wavelength specific, or something we are doing wrong. Either way, we cannot contribute to this in the form of mitigation strategy.

      Given that the GFP responses are a function of brain area and cortical depth – it is not a stretch to postulate that they also depend on genetic cell type labelled. Thus, any GFP calibration used for correction will need to be repeated for each cell type and brain area. Once experiments are repeated using GFP (the strategy we advocate for – we don’t think there is a simpler way to do this), the “correction” is just a subtraction (or a visual comparison).

      (2) The paper attributes the source of 'hemodynamic occlusion' primarily to blood vessel dilation, but leaves unanswered how much may be due to shifts in blood oxygenation. Figure 4 directly addresses the question of how much of the signal can be attributed to occlusion by measuring the blood vessel dilation, but notably fails to reproduce any of the positive transients associated with locomotion in Figure 2. Thus, an investigation into or at least a discussion of what other factors (movement? Hb oxygenation?) may drive these distinct signals would be helpful.

      See also our response to reviewer 1 comment 1.

      We have added to Figure 4 an example of a positive transient. At running onset, superficial blood vessels in cortex tend to constrict and hence result in positive transients.

      We now also mention changes in blood oxygenation as a potential source of hemodynamic occlusion. And just to be clear, blood oxygenation (or flow) changes in absence of any fluorophore, do not lead to a two-photon signal. Just in case the reviewer was concerned about intrinsic signals – these are not detectable in two photon imaging.

      (3) Along these lines, the authors carefully quantified the correlation between local blood vessel diameter and GFP response (or neuropil fluorescence vs blood vessel fluorescence with GRAB sensors). To what extent does this effect depend on proximity to the vessels? Do GFP/ GRAB responses decorrelate from blood vessel activity in neurons further from vessels (refer to Figure 5A and B in Neyhart et al., Cell Reports 2024)?

      We indeed thought about quantifying this, but to do this properly would require having a 3d reconstruction of the blood vessel plexus above (with respect to the optical axis) the neuron of interest, as well as some knowledge of how each vessel dilates as a function of stimulus. The prime effect is likely from blood vessels that are in the 45 degrees illumination cone above the neuron (Author response image 2). Lateral proximity to a blood vessel is likely only of secondary relevance. Thus, performing such a measurement is impractical and of little benefit for others.

      Author response image 2.

      A schematic representation of the cone of illumination.

      While imaging a neuron (the spot on the imaging plane at the focus of the cone of illumination), the relevant blood vessels that primarily contribute to hemodynamic occlusion are those in the cone of illumination between the neuron and the objective lens. Blood vessels visible in the imaging plane (indicated by gray arrows), do not directly contribute to hemodynamic occlusion. Any distance dependence of hemodynamic occlusion in the observed response of a neuron to these blood vessels in the imaging plane is at best incidental.

      (4) Raw traces are shown in Figure 2 but we are never presented with the unaveraged data for locomotion of stimulus presentation times, which limits the reader's ability to independently assess variability in the data. Inclusion of heatmaps comparing event aligned GFP to GCaMP6f may be of value to the reader.

      We fear we are not sure what the reviewer means by “the unaveraged data for locomotion of stimulus presentation times”. We suspect this should read “locomotion or stimulus…”. We have added heat maps of the responses of all neurons of the data shown in Figure 1 – as Figure S2.

      (5) More detailed analysis of differences between the kinds of dynamics observed in GFP vs GCaMP6f expressing neurons could aid in identifying artifacts in otherwise clean data. The example neurons in Figure 2A hint at this as each display unique waveforms and the question of whether certain properties of their dynamics can reveal the hemodynamic rather than indicator driven nature of the signal is left open. Eg. do the decay rate and rise times differ significantly from GCaMP6f signals?

      The most informative distinction we have found is differences in peak responses (Figure 2B). Decay and rise time measurements critically depend on the identification of “events”. As a function of how selective one is with what one calls an event (e.g. easy in example 1 of Figure 2 – but more difficult in examples 2 and 3), one gets very different estimates of rise and decay times. Due to the fact that peak amplitudes are lower in GFP responses – rise and decay times will be either slower or noisier (depending on where the threshold for event detection is set).

      (6) The authors suggest that signal to noise ratio of an indicator likely affects the ability to separate hemodynamic response from the underlying fluorescence signal. Does the degree of background fluorescence affect the size of the artifact? If there was variation in background and overall expression level in the data this could potentially be used to answer this question. Could lower (or higher!) expression levels increase the effects of hemodynamic occlusion?

      There may be a misunderstanding (i.e. we might be misunderstanding the reviewer’s argument here). Our statement from the manuscript that the signal to noise ratio of an indicator matters is based on the simple consideration that hemodynamic occlusion is in the range of 0 to 2 % ΔF/F. The larger the dynamic range of the indicator, the less of a problem 2% ΔF/F are. Imagine an indicator with average responses in the 100’s of % ΔF/F - then this would be a non-problem. For indicators with a dynamic range less than 1%, a 2% artifact is a problem.

      Regarding “background” fluorescence, we are not sure what is meant here. In case the reviewer means fluorescence that comes from indicator molecules in processes (as opposed to soma) that are typically ignored (or classified as neuropil) – we are not sure how this would help. The occlusion effects are identical for both somatic and axonal or dendritic GFP (the source of the GFP fluorescence is not relevant for the occlusion effect). In case the reviewer means “baseline” fluorescence – above a noise threshold ΔF/F<sub>0</sub> should be constant independent of F<sub>0</sub> (i.e. baseline fluorescence). This also holds in the data, see Figure S4. We might be stating the trivial - the normalization of fluorescence activity as ΔF/F<sub>0</sub> has the effect that the “occluder" effect is constant for all values of all F<sub>0</sub>.

      (7) The choice of the phrase 'hemodynamic occlusion' may cause some confusion as the authors address both positive and negative responses in the GFP expressing neurons, and there may be additional contributions from changes in blood oxygenation state.

      Regarding the potential confusion with regards to terminology, occlusion can decrease or increase.

      Only under the (incorrect) assumption that occlusion is zero at baseline would this be confusing – no? If the reviewer has a suggestion for a different term, we’d be open to changing it.

      Regarding blood oxygenation – this is absolutely correct, we did not explicitly point this out in the previous version of the manuscript. Occlusion changes are driven by a combination of changes to volume and “opacity” of the blood. Oxygenation changes would be in the second category. We have clarified this in the manuscript.

      (8) The choice of ACC as the frontal region provides a substantial contrast in location, brain movement, and vascular architecture as compared to V1. As the authors note, ACC is close to the superior sagittal sinus and thus is the region where the largest vascular effects are likely to occur. The reader is left to wonder how much of the ROI may or may not have included vasculature in the ACC vs V1 recordings as the only images of the recording sites provided are for V1. We are left unable to conclude whether the differences observed between these regions are due to the presence of visible vasculature, capillary blood flow or differences in neurovasculature coupling between regions. A less medial portion of M2 may have been a more appropriate comparison. At least, inclusion of more example imaging fields for ACC in the supplementary figures would be of value.

      Both the choice of V1 and ACC were simply driven by previous experiments we had already done in these areas with calcium indicators. And we agree, the relevant axis is likely distance from midline, not AP – i.e. RSC and ACC are likely more similar, and V1 and lateral M2 more similar. We have made this point explicitly in the manuscript and have added sample fields of view as Figure S1.

      (9) In Figure 3, How do the proportions of responsive GFP neurons compare to GCaMP6f neurons?

      We have added the data for GCaMP responses.

      (10) How is variance explained calculated in Figure 4? Is this from a linear model and R^2 value? Is this variance estimate for separate predictors by using single variable models? The methods should describe the construction of the model including the design matrix and how the model was fit and if and how cross validation was run.

      This is simply a linear model (i.e. R^2) – we have added this to the methods.

      (11) Cortical depth is coarsely defined as L2/3 or L5, without numerical ranges in depth from pia.

      Layer 2/3 imaging was done at a depth of 100-250 μm from pia, and the same for layer 5 was 400-600 μm. This has been added to the methods.

      Overall Assessment:

      This paper is an important contribution to our understanding of how hemodynamic artifacts may corrupt GRAB and calcium imaging, even in two-photon imaging modes. Certain useful control experiments, such as intrinsic optical imaging in the same paradigms, were not reported, nor were any hemodynamic correction methods investigated. Thus, this limits both mechanistic conclusions and the overall utility with respect to immediate applications by end users. Nevertheless, the paper is of significant importance to anyone conducting two-photon or widefield imaging with calcium and GRAB sensors and deserves the attention of the broader neuroscience and in-vivo imaging community.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      In this study, the authors aimed to investigate if hemodynamic occlusion contributes to fluorescent signals measured with two-photon microscopy. For this, they image the activity-independent fluorophore GFP in 2 different cortical areas, at different cortical depths and in different behavioral conditions. They compare the evoked fluorescent signals with those obtained with calcium sensors and neuromodulator sensors and evaluate their relationship to vessel diameter as a readout of blood flow.

      They find that GFP fluorescence transients are comparable to GCaMP6f stimuli-evoked signals in amplitude, although they are generally smaller. Yet, they are significant even at the single neuronal level. They show that GFP fluorescence transients resemble those measured with the dopamine sensor GRABDA1m and the serotonin sensor GRAB-5HT1.0 in amplitude an nature, suggesting that signals with these sensors are dominated by hemodynamic occlusion. Moreover, the authors perform similar experiments with wide-field microscopy which reveals the similarity between the two methods in generating the hemodynamic signals. Together the evidence presented calls for the development and use of high dynamic range sensors to avoid measuring signals that have another origin from the one intended to measure. In the meantime, the evidence highlights the need to control for those artifacts such as with the parallel use of activity independent fluorophores.

      Strengths:

      - Comprehensive study comparing different cortical regions in diverse behavioral settings in controlled conditions.

      - Comparison to the state-of-the-art, i.e. what has been demonstrated with wide-field microscopy.

      - Comparison to diverse activity-dependent sensors, including the widely used GCaMP.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The kinetics of GCaMP is stereotypic. An analysis/comment on if and how the kinetics of the signals could be used to distinguish the hemodynamic occlusion artefacts from calcium signals would be useful.

      We might be misunderstanding what the reviewer means by “the kinetics of GCaMP are stereotypic”. The kinetics are clearly stereotypic if one has isolated single action potential responses in a genetically identified cell type. But data recorded in vivo looks very different, see e.g. example traces in figure 1g of (Keller et al., 2012). And these are selected example traces, the average GCaMP trace looks perhaps more like the three example traces shown in Figure 2 (this is not surprising if the GCaMP signals one records in vivo are a superposition of calcium responses and hemodynamic occlusion). All quantification of kinetics relies on identifying “events”. We cannot identify events in any meaningful way for most of the data (see e.g. examples 2 and 3 in Figure 2). The one feature we can reliably identify as differing between GCaMP and GFP responses is peak response amplitude (as quantified in Figure 2).

      (2) Is it possible that motion is affecting the signals in a certain degree? This issue is not made clear.

      See also our response to reviewer 1 comment 1. In brief, we have added a quantification of motion artefacts as Figure S5, and argue that motion artefacts could only account for locomotion onset responses (there is no detectable brain motion to visual responses) and would predict a decrease in fluorescence (not an increase).

      (3) The causal relationship with blood flow remains open. Hemodynamic occlusion seems a good candidate causing changes in GFP fluorescence, but this remains to be well addressed in further research.

      We agree – we have made this clearer in the manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Figure 2A shows three neurons with convincing GFP responses, with amplitudes often exceeding 100%. However, after seeing these data, I actually feel less convinced that these responses are related to hemodynamic occlusion. Blood vessel diameter changes by at most a few percent during behavior -- how could such small changes lead to >100% changes in GFP fluorescence?

      My guess is that these responses might instead be related to motion artifacts, particularly given the strong correlation between these responses and running speed (Figure 2A). One possible way to test this is by examining a pixelwise map of fluorescence changes (dF/F) during running vs. baseline. If hemodynamic effects are involved, one would likely see a shadow of the involved blood vessels in this map. Conversely, if motion artifacts are the primary factor, the map of dF/F should resemble the spatial gradients of the mean fluorescence image. Examining pixelwise maps of dF/F will likely provide insights regarding the nature of the GFP signals.

      The underlying assumption (“blood vessel diameter changes by at most a few percent”) might be incorrect here. (Note also, relevant is likely the cross section, not diameter.) See Figure 4A1 and B1 for quantification of example blood vessel area changes - both example vessels change area by approximately 50%. Also note, example 1 in Figure 2 is an extreme example. The example was chosen to highlight that effects can be large. To try to illustrate that this is not typical however, we also show the distribution of all neurons in Figure 2B and mark all three example cells – example 1 is at the very tail of the distribution.

      Regarding the analysis suggested, we have added examples of this for running onset to the manuscript (Figure S7). We have examples in which a blood vessel shadow is clearly visible. More typical however, is a general increase in fluorescence (on running onset) that we think is caused by blood vessels closer to the surface of the brain.

      (2) Figure 3A shows strong GFP responses during running, while visuomotor mismatch elicit virtually no GFP-responsive neurons. This finding is puzzling, as visuomotor mismatch has been shown by the same group to activate L2/3 neurons more strongly than running (see Figure 3A, Keller et al., 2012, Neuron). Stronger neuronal activation should, in theory, result in more pronounced hemodynamic effects, and therefore, a higher proportion of GFP-responsive neurons. The absence of GFP responses during visuomotor mismatch raises questions about whether GFP signals are directly linked to hemodynamic occlusion.

      An alternative explanation is that the strong GFP responses observed during running could instead be driven by motion artifacts, e.g., those associated with the increased head or body movements during running onsets. Such artifacts could explain the observed GFP responses, rather than hemodynamic occlusion.

      This might be a misunderstanding. Mismatch responses are primarily observed in mismatch neurons. These are superficial L2/3 neurons (possibly the population that in higher mammals is L2 neurons). The fact that mismatch responses are primarily observed in this superficial population is likely the reason they were discovered using two-photon calcium imaging (which tends to have a bias towards superficial neurons as the image quality is best there), and seen in much fewer neurons when using electrophysiological techniques (Saleem et al., 2013) that are biased to deeper neurons. In response to Reviewer #2, we have now also added a quantification of the fraction of neurons responsive to these stimuli when using GCaMP (Figure 3D-F). The fraction of neurons responsive to visuomotor mismatch is smaller than those responsive on locomotion or to visual stimuli.

      Thus, based on “average” responses across all cortical cell types (our L2/3 recordings here are as unbiased across all of L2/3 as possible) the response profiles (strong running onset and visual responses, and weak MM responses) are probably what one would expect in first approximation also in the blood vessel response profile. Complicating this is of course the fact that it is likely some cell type specific activity that contributes most to blood flow changes, not simply average neuronal activity.

      See response to public review comment 1 for a discussion of alternative sources, including motion artefacts.

      (3) Given the potential confound associated with brain motion, the authors might consider quantifying hemodynamic occlusion effects under more controlled conditions, such as in anesthetized animals, where brain movement is minimal. They could use drifting grating stimuli, which are known to produce wellcharacterized blood vessel and hemodynamic responses in V1. The effects of hemodynamic occlusion can then be quantified by imaging the fluorescence of an activity-independent marker. For maximal robustness, GFP should ideally be avoided, due to its known sensitivity to pH changes, as noted in the public review.

      Brain motion is negligible to visual stimuli in the awake mouse as well (Figure S5). This is likely the better control than anesthetized recordings – anesthesia has strong effects on blood pressure, heart rate, breathing, etc. all of which would introduce more confounds.

      (4) Regardless of the precise mechanism driving the observed GFP response, these activity-independent signals must be accounted for in functional imaging experiments. This applies not only to experiments using small dynamic range sensors but also to those employing 'high dynamic range' sensors like GCaMP6, which, according to the authors, exhibit responses only ~2-fold greater than those of GFP.

      In this context, the extensive GFP imaging data are highly valuable, as they could serve as a benchmark for evaluating the effectiveness of correction methods. Ideally, effective correction methods should produce minimal responses when applied to GFP imaging data. With these data at hand, I strongly encourage the authors to explore potential correction methods, as such methods could have far-reaching impact on the field.

      As discussed above, we have tested a number of such correction approaches for both widefield and two-photon imaging and could never recover a response profile that resembles the GFP response. The “correction method” we have come to favor, is repeating experiments using GFP (i.e. what we have done here).

      (5) Several correction approaches could be considered: for instance, the strong correlation between GFP responses and blood vessel diameter (as shown in Figure 4) could potentially be leveraged to predict and compensate for the activity-independent signals. Alternatively, expressing an activity-independent marker alongside the activity sensor in orthogonal spectral channels could enable simultaneous monitoring and correction of activity-independent signals. Finally, computational procedure to remove common fluctuations, measured from background or 'neuropil' regions (see, e.g., Kerlin et al., 2010, Neuron; Giovannucci et al., 2019, eLife), may help reduce the contamination in cellular ROIs. The authors could try some or all of these methods, and benchmark their effectiveness by assessing, e.g., the number of GFP responsive neurons after correction.

      Over the years we have tried many of these approaches. A correction using a second fluorophore of a different color likely fails because blood absorption is strongly wavelength dependent, making it challenging to calibrate the correction factor. Neuropil “correction” on GCaMP data, even with the best implementations, is just a common mode subtraction. The signal in the neuropil – as the name implies is just an average of many axons and dendrites in the vicinity – most of these processes are from nearby neurons making a neuropil response simply an average response of the neurons in some neighborhood. Adding the problem of hemodynamic responses (which on small scales will also influence nearby neurons and neuropil similarly) makes disentangling the two effects impossible (i.e. neuropil subtraction makes the problem worse, not better). However, just because we fail in implementing all of these methods, does not necessarily mean the method is faulty. Hence we have chosen not to comment on any such method, and simply provide the only mitigation strategy that works in our hands – record GFP responses.

      (6) Given the potential usefulness of the GFP imaging data, I encourage the authors to share these data in a public repository to facilitate the development of correction methods.

      Certainly – all of our data are always published. In the early years of the lab on an FMI repository here https://data.fmi.ch/ - more recently now on Zenodo.

      (7) As noted in the public review, several methodology details are missing. Most importantly, I could not find the description in the Methods section explaining how fluorescence signals from individual neurons were extracted from two-photon imaging data. The existing section on 'Extraction of neuronal activity' appears to cover only the wide-field analysis, with details about two-photon analysis seemingly absent.

      Please excuse the omission – this has all been added to the methods. In brief, to answer your questions:

      Were regions of interest (ROIs) for individual cells identified manually or automatically?

      We use a mixture of manual and automatic methods for our two-photon data. Based on a median filtered (spatially) version of the mean fluorescence image, we used a threshold based selection of ROIs. This was then visually inspected and manually corrected where necessary such that ROIs were at least 250 pixels and only labelled clearly identifiable neurons.

      Was fluorescence within each ROI calculated by averaging signals across pixels, or were signal de-mixing algorithms (e.g., PCA, ICA, or NMF) applied?

      We use the average fluorescence across pixels without any de-mixing algorithms here and in all our two-photon experiments. De-mixing algorithms can introduce a variety of artefacts.

      Additionally, did the authors account for and correct the contribution of surrounding neuropil?

      No neuropil correction was applied. It would also be difficult to see how this would help. If the model of hemodynamic occlusion is correct, one would expect occlusion effects to change on the length scale of blood vessels (i.e. tens to hundreds of microns). Thus, the effect of occlusion on neuropil and cells should be the similar. Neuropil “correction” is always based on the idea of removing signals that are common to both neuropil and somata, thereby complicating the interpretation of the resulting signal even further.

      Without these methodological details, it is difficult to accurately interpret the two-photon signals reported in the manuscript.

      (8) The rationale for using the average fluorescence of a ROI within the blood vessel as a proxy for blood vessel diameter is not entirely clear to me. The authors should provide a clearer justification for this approach in their revision.

      Consider a ROI placed within a blood vessel at the focus of the illumination cone (Author response image 3). Given the axial point-spread-function of two-photon imaging is in the range of 0.5 μm laterally and 3 μm axially (indicated by the bicone), emitted photons from the fluorescent tissue outside of the blood vessel but within the two-photon volume will contribute to change in fluorescence in the ROI. A change in the blood vessel volume, say an increase on dilation, would decrease the amount of emission photons reaching the objective by, one, pushing more of the fluorescent tissue outside of the two-photon volume, and two, by presenting greater hemodynamic occlusion to the photons emitted by the fluorescent tissue immediately below the vessel. Conversely, on vasoconstriction there are more emission photons at the objective.

      In line with this argument, as shown in Figure 4A1-A2, B1-B2 and C1-C2, we do find that the change in fluorescence of blood vessel ROI varies inversely with the area of the blood vessel. Of course, change in blood vessel ROI fluorescence is only a proxy for vessel size. Extracting blood vessel boundaries from individual two-photon frames was noisy and proved unreliable in the absence of specific dyes to label the vessel walls. We thus resorted to using blood vessel ROI fluorescence as a proxy for hemodynamic occlusion, and tested how much of the variance in GFP responses is explained by the change in blood vessel ROI response.

      We have added an explanation to the manuscript, as suggested.

      Author response image 3.

      Average response of ROIs placed within blood vessels co-vary with hemodynamic occlusion.

      (9) I find that the Shen et al., 2012, Nature Methods paper has gone quite far to demonstrate the effect of hemodynamic occlusion in two photon imaging. Therefore, I suggest the authors describe and cite this work not only in the discussion but also in the introduction, where they can highlight the key questions left unanswered by that study and explain how their manuscript aims to address them.

      We have added the reference and point to the work in the introduction as suggested.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I appreciate very much that the study is presented in a very clear manner.

      A few comments that could clarify it even further:

      (1) Fig. 1: make clear on legend if it is an average of full FOVs.

      The traces shown are the average over ROIs (neurons) – we have clarified in the figure legend as suggested.

      (2) Give a more complete definition of hemodynamic occlusion to understand the hypothesis in the relationship between blood vessel dilation and GFP fluorescence (116-119). Maybe, move the phrase from conclusion "Since blood absorbs light, hemodynamic occlusion can affect fluorescence intensity measurements" (219-220).

      Very good point – we expanded on the definition in the introduction.

      (3) For clarity, mention in the main text the method used to assess how a parameter explains the variance (126-129).

      Is implemented.

      (4) Discuss the possible relationship of the signals to neuronal activity.

      We have added this to the discussion.

      (5) Discuss if the measurements could provide any functional insights, whether they could be used to learn something about the brain.

      We have added this to the discussion.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The manuscript by Wagstyl et al. describes an extensive analysis of gene expression in the human cerebral cortex and the association with a large variety of maps capturing many of its microscopic and macroscopic properties. The core methodological contribution is the computation of continuous maps of gene expression for >20k genes, which are being shared with the community. The manuscript is a demonstration of several ways in which these maps can be used to relate gene expression with histological features of the human cortex, cytoarchitecture, folding, function, development and disease risk. The main scientific contribution is to provide data and tools to help substantiate the idea of the genetic regulation of multi-scale aspects of the organisation of the human brain. The manuscript is dense, but clearly written and beautifully illustrated.

      Main comments

      The starting point for the manuscript is the construction of continuous maps of gene expression for most human genes. These maps are based on the microarray data from 6 left human brain hemispheres made available by the Allen Brain Institute. By technological necessity, the microarray data is very sparse: only 1304 samples to map all the cortex after all subjects were combined (a single individual's hemisphere has ~400 samples). Sampling is also inhomogeneous due to the coronal slicing of the tissue. To obtain continuous maps on a mesh, the authors filled the gaps using nearest-neighbour interpolation followed by strong smoothing. This may have two potentially important consequences that the authors may want to discuss further: (a) the intrinsic geometry of the mesh used for smoothing will introduce structure in the expression map, and (b) strong smoothing will produce substantial, spatially heterogeneous, autocorrelations in the signal, which are known to lead to a significant increase in the false positive rate (FPR) in the spin tests they used.

      Many thanks to the reviewer for their considered feedback. We have addressed these primary concerns into point-by-point responses below. The key conclusions from our new analyses are: (i) while the intrinsic geometry of the mesh had not originally been accounted for in sufficient detail, the findings presented in this manuscript paper are not driven by mesh-induced structure, (ii) that the spin test null models used in this manuscript [(including a modified version introduced in response to (i)] are currently the most appropriate way to mitigate against inflated false positive rates when making statistical inferences on smooth, surface-based data.

      a. Structured smoothing

      A brain surface has intrinsic curvature (Gaussian curvature, which cannot be flattened away without tearing). The size of the neighbourhood around each surface vertex will be determined by this curvature. During surface smoothing, this will make that the weight of each vertex will be also modulated by the local curvature, i.e., by large geometric structures such as poles, fissures and folds. The article by Ciantar et al (2022, https://doi.org/10.1007/s00429-022-02536-4) provides a clear illustration of this effect: even the mapping of a volume of pure noise into a brain mesh will produce a pattern over the surface strikingly similar to that obtained by mapping resting state functional data or functional data related to a motor task.

      Comment 1

      It may be important to make the readers aware of this possible limitation, which is in large part a consequence of the sparsity of the microarray sampling and the necessity to map that to a mesh. This may confound the assessments of reproducibility (results, p4). Reproducibility was assessed by comparing pairs of subgroups split from the total 6. But if the mesh is introducing structure into the data, and if the same mesh was used for both groups, then what's being reproduced could be a combination of signal from the expression data and signal induced by the mesh structure.

      Response 1

      The reviewer raises an important question regarding the potential for interpolation and smoothing on a cortical mesh to induce a common/correlated signal due to the intrinsic mesh structure. We have now generated a new null model to test this idea which indicates that intrinsic mesh structure is not inflating reproducibility in interpolated expression maps. This new null model spins the original samples prior to interpolation, smoothing and comparison between triplet splits of the six donors, with independent spins shared across the triplet. For computational tractability we took one pair of triplets and regenerated the dataset for each triplet using 10 independent spins. We used these to estimate gene-gene null reproducibility for 90 independent pairwise combinations of these 10 spins. Across these 90 permutations, the average median gene-gene correlation was R=0.03, whereas in the unspun triplet comparisons this was R=0.36. These results indicate that the primary source of the gene-level triplet reproducibility is the underlying shared gene expression pattern rather than interpolation-induced structure.

      In Methods 2a: "An additional null dataset was generated to test whether intrinsic geometry of the cortical mesh and its impact on interpolation for benchmarking analyses of DEMs and gradients (Fig S1d, Fig S2d, Fig S3c). In these analyses, the original samples were rotated on the spherical surface prior to subsequent interpolation, smoothing and gradient calculation. Due to computational constraints the full dataset was recreated only for 10 independent spins. These are referred to as the “spun+interpolated null”.

      Author response image 1.

      Figure S1d, Gene predictability was higher across all triplet-triplet pairs than when compared to spun+interpolated null.

      Comment 2

      It's also possible that mesh-induced structure is responsible in part for the "signal boost" observed when comparing raw expression data and interpolated data (fig S1a). How do you explain the signal boost of the smooth data compared with the raw data otherwise?

      Response 2

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this issue of mesh-induced structure. We first sought to quantify the impact of mesh-induced structure through the new null model, in which the data are spun prior to interpolation. New figure S1d, S2d and S3c all show that the main findings are not driven by interpolation over a common mesh structure, but rather originate in the underlying expression data.

      Specifically, for the original Figure S1a, the reviewer highlights a limitation that we compared intersubject predictability of raw-sample to raw-sample and interpolated-to-interpolated. In this original formulation improved prediction scores for interpolated-to-interpolated (the “signal boost”) could be driven by mesh-induced structure being applied to both the input and predicted maps. We have updated this so that we are now comparing raw-to-raw and interpolated-to-raw, i.e. whether interpolated values are better estimations of the measured expression values. The new Fig S1a&b (see below) shows a signal boost in gene-level and vertex level prediction scores (delta R = +0.05) and we attribute this to the minimisation of location and measurement noise in the raw data, improving the intersubject predictability of expression levels.

      In Methods 2b: "To assess the effect of data interpolation in DEM generation we compared gene-level and vertex-level reproducibility of DEMs against a “ground truth” estimate of these reproducibility metrics based on uninterpolated expression data. To achieve a strict comparison of gene expression values between different individuals at identical spatial locations we focused these analyses on the subset of AHBA samples where a sample from one subject was within 3 mm geodesic distance of another. This resulted in 1097 instances (spatial locations) with measures of raw gene expression of one donor, and predicted values from the second donor’s un-interpolated AHBA expression data and interpolated DEM. We computed gene-level and vertex-level reproducibility of expression using the paired donor data at each of these sample points for both DEM and uninterpolated AHBA expression values. By comparing DEM reproducibility estimates with those for uninterpolated AHBA expression data, we were able to quantify the combined effect of interpolation and smoothing steps in DEM generation. We used gene-level reproducibility values from DEMs and uninterpolated AHBA expression data to compute a gene-level difference in reproducibility, and we then visualized the distribution of these difference values across genes (Fig S1a). We used gene-rank correlation to compare vertex-level reproducibility values between DEMs and uninterpolated AHBA expression data (Fig S1b)."

      Author response image 2.

      Figure S1. Reproducibility of Dense Expression Maps (DEMs) interpolated from spatially sparse postmortem measures of cortical gene expression. a, Signal boost in the interpolated DEM dataset vs. spatially sparse expression data. Restricting to samples taken from approximately the same cortical location in pairs of individuals (within 3mm geodesic distance), there was an overall improvement in intersubject spatial predictability in the interpolated maps. Furthermore, genes with lower predictability in the interpolated maps were less predictable in the raw dataset, suggesting these regions exhibit higher underlying biological variability rather than methodologically introduced bias. b, Similarly at the paired sample locations, gene-rank predictability was generally improved in DEMs vs. sparse expression data (median change in R from sparse samples to interpolated for each pair of subjects, +0.5).

      1. How do you explain that despite the difference in absolute value the combined expression maps of genes with and without cortical expression look similar? (fig S1e: in both cases there's high values in the dorsal part of the central sulcus, in the occipital pole, in the temporal pole, and low values in the precuneus and close to the angular gyrus). Could this also reflect mesh-smoothing-induced structure?

      Response 3

      As with comment 1, this is an interesting perspective that we had not fully considered. We would first like to clarify that non-cortical expression is defined from the independent datasets including the “cortex” tissue class of the human protein atlas and genes identified as markers for cortical layers or cortical cells in previous studies. This is still likely an underestimate of true cortically expressed genes as some of these “non-cortical genes” had high intersubject reproducibility scores. Nevertheless we think it appropriate to use a measure of brain expression independent of anything included in other analyses for this paper. These considerations are part of the reason we provide all gene maps with accompanying uncertainty scores for user discretion rather than simply filtering them out.

      In terms of the spatially consistent pattern of the gene ranks of Fig S1f, this consistent spatial pattern mirrors Transcriptomic Distinctiveness (r=0.52 for non-cortical genes, r=0.75 for cortical genes), so we think that as the differences in expression signatures become more extreme, the relative ranks of genes in that region are more reproducible/easier to predict.

      To assess whether mesh-smoothing-induced structure is playing a role, we carried out an additional the new null model introduced in response to comment 1, and asked if the per-vertex gene rank reproducibility of independently spun subgroup triplets showed a similar structure to that in our original analyses. Across the 90 permutations, the median correlation between vertex reproducibility and TD was R=0.10. We also recalculated the TD maps for the 10 spun datasets and the mean correlation with the original TD did not significantly differ from zero (mean R = 0.01, p=0.2, nspins =10). These results indicate that folding morphology is not the major driver of local or large scale patterning in the dataset. We have included this as a new Figure S3c.

      We have updated the text as follows:

      In Methods 3a: "Third, to assess whether the covariance in spatial patterning across genes could be a result of mesh-associated structure introduced through interpolation and smoothing, TD maps were recomputed for the spun+interpolated null datasets and compared to the original TD map (Fig S3c)."

      In Results: "The TD map observed from the full DEMs library was highly stable between all disjoint triplets of donors (Methods, Fig S3a, median cross-vertex correlation in TD scores between triplets r=0.77) and across library subsets at all deciles of DEM reproducibility (Methods, Fig S3b, cross-vertex correlation in TD scores r>0.8 for the 3rd-10th deciles), but was not recapitulated in spun null datasets (Fig S3c)."

      Author response image 3.

      Figure S3c, Correlations between TD and TD maps regenerated on datasets spun using two independent nulls, one where the rotation is applied prior to interpolation and smoothing (spun+interpolated) and one where it is applied to the already-created DEMs. In each null, the same rotation matrix is applied to all genes.

      Comment 4

      Could you provide more information about the way in which the nearest-neighbours were identified (results p4). Were they nearest in Euclidean space? Geodesic? If geodesic, geodesic over the native brain surface? over the spherically deformed brain? (Methods cite Moresi & Mather's Stripy toolbox, which seems to be meant to be used on spheres). If the distance was geodesic over the sphere, could the distortions introduced by mapping (due to brain anatomy) influence the geometry of the expression maps?

      Response 4

      We have clarified in the Methods that the mapping is to nearest neighbors on the spherically-inflated surface.

      The new null model we have introduced in response to comments 1 & 3 preserves any mesh-induced structure alongside any smoothing-induced spatial autocorrelations, and the additional analyses above indicate that main results are not induced by systematic mesh-related interpolation signal. In response to an additional suggestion from the reviewer (Comment 13), we also assessed whether local distortions due to the mesh could be creating apparent border effects in the data, for instance at the V1-V2 boundary. At the V1-V2 border, which coincides anatomically with the calcarine sulcus, we computed the 10 genes with the highest expression gradient along this boundary in the actual dataset and the spun-interpolated null. The median test expression gradients along this border was higher than in any of the spun datasets, indicating that these boundary effects are not explained by the interpolation and cortical geometry effects on the data (new Fig S2d). The text has been updated as follows:

      In Methods 1: "For cortical vertices with no directly sampled expression, expression values were interpolated from their nearest sampled neighbor vertex on the spherical surface (Moresi and Mather, 2019) (Fig 1b)."

      In Methods 2: "We used the spun+interpolated null to test whether high gene gradients could be driven by non-uniform interpolation across cortical folds. We quantified the average gradient for all genes along the V1-V2 border in the atlas, as well as for 10 iterations of the atlas where the samples were spun prior to interpolation. We computed the median gradient magnitude for the 20 top-ranked genes for each (Fig S2d)."

      Author response image 4.

      Figure S2d Mean of gradient magnitudes for 20 genes with largest gradients along V1-V2 border, compared to values along the same boundary on the spun+interpolated null atlas. Gradients were higher in the actual dataset than in all spun version indicating this high gradient feature is not primarily due to the effects of calcarine sulcus morphology on interpolation

      Comment 5

      Could you provide more information about the smoothing algorithm? Volumetric, geodesic over the native mesh, geodesic over the sphere, averaging of values in neighbouring vertices, cotangent-weighted laplacian smoothing, something else?

      Response 5

      We are using surface-based geodesic over the white surface smoothing described in Glasser et al., 2013 and used in the HCP workbench toolbox (https://www.humanconnectome.org/software/connectome-workbench). We have updated the methods to clarify this.

      In Methods 1: "Surface expression maps were smoothed using the Connectome Workbench toolbox (Glasser et al. 2013) with a 20mm full-width at half maximum Gaussian kernel , selected to be consistent with this sampling density (Fig 1c)."

      Comment 6

      Could you provide more information about the method used for computing the gradient of the expression maps (p6)? The gradient and the laplacian operator are related (the laplacian is the divergence of the gradient), which could also be responsible in part for the relationships observed between expression transitions and brain geometry.

      Response 6

      We are using Connectome Workbench’s metric gradient command for this Glasser et al., 2013 and used in the HCP workbench pipeline. The source code for gradient calculation can be found here: https://github.com/Washington-University/workbench/blob/131e84f7b885d82af76e be21adf2fa97795e2484/src/Algorithms/AlgorithmMetricGradient.cxx

      In Methods 2: >For each of the resulting 20,781 gene-level expression maps, the orientation and magnitude of gene expression change at each vertex (i.e. the gradient) was calculated for folded, inflated, spherical and flattened mesh representations of the cortical sheet using Connectome Workbench’s metric gradient command (Glasser et al. 2013).

      b. Potentially inflated FPR for spin tests on autocorrelated data."

      Spin tests are extensively used in this work and it would be useful to make the readers aware of their limitations, which may confound some of the results presented. Spin tests aim at establishing if two brain maps are similar by comparing a measure of their similarity over a spherical deformation of the brains against a distribution of similarities obtained by randomly spinning one of the spheres. It is not clear which specific variety of spin test was used, but the original spin test has well known limitations, such as the violation of the assumption of spatial stationarity of the covariance structure (not all positions of the spinning sphere are equivalent, some are contracted, some are expanded), or the treatment of the medial wall (a big hole with no data is introduced when hemispheres are isolated).

      Another important limitation results from the comparison of maps showing autocorrelation. This problem has been extensively described by Markello & Misic (2021). The strong smoothing used to make a continuous map out of just ~1300 samples introduces large, geometry dependent autocorrelations. Indeed, the expression maps presented in the manuscript look similar to those with the highest degree of autocorrelation studied by Markello & Misic (alpha=3). In this case, naive permutations should lead to a false positive rate ~46% when comparing pairs of random maps, and even most sophisticated methods have FPR>10%.

      Comment 7 There's currently several researchers working on testing spatial similarity, and the readers would benefit from being made aware of the problem of the spin test and potential solutions. There's also packages providing alternative implementations of spin tests, such as BrainSMASH and BrainSpace, which could be mentioned.

      Response 7

      We thank the reviewer for raising the issue of null models. First, with reference to the false positive rate of 46% when maps exhibit spatial autocorrelation, we absolutely agree that this is an issue that must be accounted for and we address this using the spin test. We acknowledge there has been other work on nulls such as BrainSMASH and BrainSpace. Nevertheless in the Markello and Misic paper to which the reviewer refers, the BrainSmash null models perform worse with smoother maps (with false positive rates approaching 30% in panel e below), whereas the spin test maintains false positives rates below 10%.

      Author response image 5.

      We have added a brief description of the challenge and our use of the spin test.

      In Methods 2a: "Cortical maps exhibit spatial autocorrelation that can inflate the False Positive Rate, for which a number of methods have been proposed(Alexander-Bloch et al. 2018; Burt et al. 2020; Vos de Wael et al. 2020). At higher degrees of spatial smoothness, this high False Positive Rate is most effectively mitigated using the spin test(Alexander-Bloch et al. 2018; Markello and Misic 2021; Vos de Wael et al. 2020). In the following analyses when generating a test statistic comparing two spatial maps, to generate a null distribution, we computed 1000 independent spins of the cortical surface using https://netneurotools.readthedocs.io, and applied it to the first map whilst keeping the second map unchanged. The test statistic was then recomputed 1000 times to generate a null distribution for values one might observe by chance if the maps shared no common organizational features. This is referred to throughout as the “spin test” and the derived p-values as pspin."

      Comment 8

      Could it be possible to measure the degree of spatial autocorrelation?

      Response 8

      We agree this could be a useful metric to generate for spatial cortical maps. However, there are multiple potential metrics to choose from and each of the DEMs would have their own value. To address this properly would require the creation of a set of validated tools and it is not clear how we could summarize this variety of potential metrics for 20k genes. Moreover, as discussed above the spin method is an adequate null across a range of spatial autocorrelation degrees, thus while we agree that in general estimation of spatial smoothness could be a useful imaging metric to report, we consider that it is beyond the scope of the current manuscript.

      Comment 9

      Could you clarify which version of the spin test was used? Does the implementation come from a package or was it coded from scratch?

      Response 9

      As Markello & Misic note, at the vertex level, the various implementations of the spin test become roughly equivalent to the ‘original’ Alexander-Bloch et al., implementation. We used took the code for the ‘original’ version implemented in python here: https://netneurotools.readthedocs.io/en/latest/_modules/netneurotools/stats.html# gen_spinsamples.

      This has been updated in the methods (see Response 7).

      Comment 10

      Cortex and non-cortex vertex-level gene rank predictability maps (fig S1e) are strikingly similar. Would the spin test come up statistically significant? What would be the meaning of that, if the cortical map of genes not expressed in the cortex appeared to be statistically significantly similar to that of genes expressed in the cortex?

      Response 10

      Please see response to comment 3, which also addresses this observation.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors convert the AHBA dataset into a dense cortical map and conduct an impressively large number of analyses demonstrating the value of having such data.

      I only have comments on the methodology.

      Comment 1

      First, the authors create dense maps by simply using nearest neighbour interpolation followed by smoothing. Since one of the main points of the paper is the use of a dense map, I find it quite light in assessing the validity of this dense map. The reproducibility values they calculate by taking subsets of subjects are hugely under-powered, given that there are only 6 brains, and they don't inform on local, vertex-wise uncertainties). I wonder if the authors would consider using Gaussian process interpolation. It is really tailored to this kind of problem and can give local estimates of uncertainty in the interpolated values. For hyperparameter tuning, they could use leave-one-brain-out for that.

      I know it is a lot to ask to change the base method, as that means re-doing all the analyses. But I think it would strengthen the paper if the authors put as much effort in the dense mapping as they did in their downstream analyses of the data.

      Response 1

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion to explore Gaussian process interpolation. We have implemented this for our dataset and attempted to compare this with our original method with the 3 following tests: i) intertriplet reproducibility of individual gene maps, ii) microscale validations: area markers, iii) macroscale validations: bio patterns.

      Overall, compared to our original nearest-neighbor interpolation method, GP regression (i) did not substantially improve gene-level reproducibility of expression maps (median correlation increase of R=0.07 which was greater for genes without documented protein expression in cortex): ii) substantially worsened performance in predicting areal marker genes and iii) showed similar but slightly worse performance at predicting macroscale patterns from Figure 1.

      Given the significantly poorer performance on one of our key tests (ii) we have opted not to replace our original database, but we do now include code for the alternative GP regression methodology in the github repository so others can reproduce/further develop these methods.

      Author response image 6.

      ii) Genes ranked by mean expression gradient from current DEMs (left) and Gaussian process-derived interpolation maps (right). Established Human and macaque markers are consistently higher-ranked in DEM maps. iii) Figure 1 Interpolated vs GP regression

      Author response table 1.

      Comment 2

      It is nice that the authors share some code and a notebook, but I think it is rather light. It would be good if the code was better documented, and if the user could have access to the non-smoothed data, in case they was to produce their own dense maps. I was only wondering why the authors didn't share the code that reproduces the many analyses/results in the paper.

      Response 2

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. In response we have updated the shared github repository (https://github.com/kwagstyl/magicc). This now includes code and notebooks to reproduce the main analyses and figures.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments

      Comment 11

      p4 mentions Fig S1h, but the supp figures only goes from S1a to S1g

      Response 11

      We thank the reviewer for capturing this error. It was in fact referring to what is now Fig S1h and has been updated.

      Comment 12

      It would be important that the authors share all the code used to produce the results in the paper in addition to the maps. The core methodological contribution of the work is a series of continuous maps of gene expression, which could become an important tool for annotation in neuroimaging research. Many arbitrary (reasonable) decisions were made, it would be important to enable users to evaluate their influence on the results.

      Response 12

      We thank both reviewers for this suggestion. We have updated the github to be able to reproduce the dense maps and key figures with our methods.

      Comment 13

      p5: Could the sharp border reflect the effect of the geometry of the calcarine sulcus on map smoothing? More generally, could there be an effect of folds on TD?

      Response 13

      Please see our response to Reviewer 1, Comment 1 above, where we introduce the new null models now analyzed to test for effects of mesh geometry on our findings. These new null models - where original source data were spun prior to interpolation suggest that neither the sharp V1/2 border or the TD map are effects of mesh geometry. Specifically: (i) , the magnitudes of gradients along the V1/2 boundary from null models were notably smaller than those in our original analyses (see new figure S2d), and (ii) TD maps computed from the new null models showed no correlation with TD maps from ur original analyses (new Figure S3c, mean R = 0.01, p=0.2, nspins =10).

      Comment 14

      p5: Similar for the matching with the areas in Glasser's parcellation: the definition of these areas involves alignment through folds (based on freesurfer 'sulc' map, see Glasser et al 2016). If folds influence the geometry of TDs, could that influence the match?

      Response 14

      We note that Fig S3c provided evidence that folding was not the primary driver of the TD patterning. However, it is true that Glasser et al. use both neuroanatomy (folding, thickness and myelin) and fMRI-derived maps to delineate their cortical areas. As such Figure 2 f & g aren’t fully independent assessments. Nevertheless the reason that these features are used is that many of the sulci in question have been shown to reliably delineate cytoarchitectonic boundaries (Fischl et al., 2008).

      In Results: "A similar alignment was seen when comparing gradients of transcriptional change with the spatial orientation of putative cortical areas defined by multimodal functional and structural in vivo neuroimaging(Glasser et al., 2016) (expression change running perpendicular to area long-axis, pspin<0.01, Fig 2g, Methods)."

      Comment 15

      p6: TD peaks are said to overlap with functionally-specialised regions. A comment on why audition is not there, nor language, but ba 9-46d is? Would that suggest a lesser genetic regulation of those functions?

      Response 15

      The reviewer raises a valid point and this was a result that we were also surprised by. The finding that the auditory cortex is not as microstructurally distinctive as, say V1, is consistent with other studies applying dimensionality-reduction techniques to multimodal microstructural receptor data (e.g. Zilles et al., 2017, Goulas et al., 2020). These studies found that the auditory microstructure is not as extreme as either visual and somatomotor areas. From a methodological view point, the primary auditory cortex is significantly smaller than both visual and somatomotor areas, and therefore is captured by fewer independent samples, which could reduce the detail in which its structure is being mapped in our dataset.

      For the frontal areas, we would note that i) the frontal peak is the smallest of all peaks found and was more strongly characterised by low z-score genes than high z-score. ii) the anatomical areas in the frontal cortex are much more highly variable with respect to folding morphology (e.g. Rajkowska 1995). The anatomical label of ba9-46d (and indeed all other labels) were automatically generated as localisers rather than strict area labels. We have clarified this in the text as follows:

      In Methods 3a: "Automated labels to localize TD peaks were generated based on their intersection with a reference multimodal neuroimaging parcellation of the human cortex(Glasser et al., 2016). Each TD was given the label of the multimodal parcel that showed greatest overlap (Fig 2b)."

      Comment 16.

      p7: The proposition that "there is a tendency for cortical sulci to run perpendicular to the direction of fastest transcriptional change", could also be "there is a tendency for the direction of fastest transcriptional change to run perpendicular to cortical sulci"? More pragmatically, this result from the geometry of transcriptional maps being influenced by sulcal geometry in their construction.

      Response 16

      Please see our response to Reviewer 1, Comment 1 above, where we introduce the new null models now analyzed to test for effects of mesh geometry on our findings. These models indicate that the topography of interpolated gene expression maps do not reflect influences of sulcal geometry on their construction.

      Comment 17

      p7: TD transitions are indicated to precede folding. This is based on a consideration of folding development based on the article by Chi et al 1977, which is quite an old reference. In that paper, the authors estimated the tempo of human folding development based on the inspection of photographs, which may not be sufficient for detecting the first changes in curvature leading to folds. The work of the Developing Human Connectome consortium may provide a more recent indication for timing. In their data, by PCW 21 there's already central sulcus, pre-central, post-central, intra-parietal, superior temporal, superior frontal which can be detected by computing the mean curvature of the pial surface (I can only provide a tweet for reference: https://twitter.com/R3RT0/status/1617119196617261056). Even by PCW 9-13 the callosal sulcus, sylvian fissure, parieto-occipital fissure, olfactory sulcus, cingulate sulcus and calcarine fissure have been reported to be present (Kostovic & Vasung 2009).

      Response 17

      Our field lacks the data necessary to provide a comprehensive empirical test for the temporal ordering of regional transcriptional profiles and emergence of folding. Our results show that transcriptional identities of V1 and TGd are - at least - present at the very earliest stages of sulcation in these regions. In response to the reviewers comment we have updated with a similar fetal mapping project which similarly shows evidence of the folds between weeks 17-21 and made the language around directionality more cautious.

      In Results: "The observed distribution of these angles across vertices was significantly skewed relative to a null based on random alignment between angles (pspin<0.01, Fig 2f, Methods) - indicating that there is indeed a tendency for cortical sulci and the direction of fastest transcriptional change to run perpendicular to each other (pspin<0.01, Fig 2f).

      As a preliminary probe for causality, we examined the developmental ordering of regional folding and regional transcriptional identity. Mapping the expression of high-ranking TD genes in fetal cortical laser dissection microarray data(Miller et al., 2014) from 21 PCW (Post Conception Weeks) (Methods) showed that the localized transcriptional identity of V1 and TGd regions in adulthood is apparent during the fetal periods when folding topology begins to emerge (Chi et al. 1977; Xu et al. 2022) (Fig " S2d).

      In Discussion: "By establishing that some of these cortical zones are evident at the time of cortical folding, we lend support to a “protomap”(Rakic 1988; O'Leary 1989; O'Leary et al. 2007; Rakic et al. 2009) like model where the placement of some cortical folds is set-up by rapid tangential changes in cyto-laminar composition of the developing cortex(Ronan et al., 2014; Toro and Burnod, 2005; Van Essen, 2020). The DEMs are derived from fully folded adult donors, and therefore some of the measured genetic-folding alignment might also be induced by mechanical distortion of the tissue during folding(Llinares-Benadero and Borrell 2019; Heuer and Toro 2019). However, no data currently exist to conclusively assess the directionality of this gene-folding relationship."

      Comment 18

      p7: In my supplemental figures (obtained from biorxiv, because I didn't find them among the files submitted to eLife) there's no S2j (only S2a-S2i).

      Response 18

      We apologize, this figure refers to S3k (formerly S3j), rather than S2j. We have updated the main text.

      Comment 19 p7: It is not clear from the methods (section 3b) how the adult and fetal brains were compared. Maybe using MSM (Robinson et al 2014)?

      Response 19

      We have now clarified this in Methods text as reproduced below.

      In Methods 3b: "We averaged scaled regional gene expression values between donors per gene, and filtered for genes in the fetal LDM dataset that were also represented in the adult DEM dataset - yielding a single final 20,476*235 gene-by-sample matrix of expression values for the human cortex at 21 PCW. Each TD peak region was then paired with the closest matching cortical label within the fetal regions. This matrix was then used to test if each TD expression signature discovered in the adult DEM dataset (Fig 2, Table 3) was already present in similar cortical regions at 21 PCW."

      Comment 20

      p7: WGCNA is used prominently, could you provide a brief introduction to its objectives? The gene coexpression networks are produced after adjusting the weight of the network edges to follow a scale-free topology, which is meant to reflect the nature of protein-protein interactions. Soft thresholding increases contrast, but doesn't this decrease a potential role of infinitesimal regulatory signals?

      Response 20

      We agree with the reviewer that the introduction to WGCNA needed additional details and have amended the Results (see below). One limitation of WGCNA-derived associations is that it will downweigh the role of smaller relationships including potentially important regulatory signals. WGCNA methods have been titrated to capture strong relationships. This is an inherent limitation of all co-expression driven methods which lead to an incomplete characterisation of the molecular biology. Nevertheless we feel these stronger relationships are still worth capturing and interrogating. We have updated the text to introduce WGCNA and acknowledge this potential weakness in the approach.

      In Results: "Briefly, WGCNA constructs a constructs a connectivity matrix by quantifying pairwise co-expression between genes, raising the correlations to a power (here 6) to emphasize strong correlations while penalizing weaker ones, and creating a Topological Overlap Matrix (TOM) to capture both pairwise similarities expression and connectivity. Modules of highly interconnected genes are identified through hierarchical clustering. The resultant WGCNA modules enable topographic and genetic integration because they each exist as both (i) a single expression map (eigenmap) for spatial comparison with neuroimaging data (Fig 3a,b, Methods) and, (ii) a unique gene set for enrichment analysis against marker genes systematically capturing multiple scales of cortical organization, namely: cortical layers, cell types, cell compartments, protein-protein interactions (PPI) and GO terms (Methods, Table S2 and S4)."

      Comment 21

      WGCNA modules look even more smooth than the gene expression maps. Are these maps comparable to low frequency eigenvectors? Autocorrelation in that case should be very strong?

      Response 21

      These modules are smooth as they are indeed eigenvectors which likely smooth out some of the more detailed but less common features seen in individual gene maps. These do exhibit high degrees of autocorrelation, nevertheless we are applying the spin test which is currently the appropriate null model for spatially autocorrelated cortical maps (Response 7).

      Comment 22

      If the WGCNA modules provide an orthogonal basis for surface data, is it completely unexpected that some of them will correlate with low-frequency patterns? What would happen if random low frequency patterns were generated? Would they also show correlations with some of the 16 WGCNA modules?

      Response 22

      We agree with the reviewer that if we used a generative model like BrainSMASH, we would likely see similar low frequency patterns. However, the inserted figure in Response 7 from Makello & Misic provide evidence that is not as conservative a null as the spin test when data exhibit high spatial autocorrelation. The spatial enrichment tests carried out on the WGCNA modules are all carried out using the spin test.

      Comment 23

      In part (a) I commented on the possibility that brain anatomy may introduce artifactual structure into the data that's being mapped. But what if the relationship between brain geometry and brain organisation were deeper than just the introduction of artefacts? The work of Lefebre et al (2014, https://doi.org/10.1109/ICPR.2014.107; 2018, https://doi.org/10.3389/fnins.2018.00354) shows that clustering based on the 3 lowest frequency eigenvectors of the Laplacian of a brain hemisphere mesh produce an almost perfect parcellation into lobes, with remarkable coincidences between parcel boundaries and primary folds and fissures. The work of Pang et al (https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.10.04.510897) suggests that the geometry of the brain plays a critical role in constraining its dynamics: they analyse >10k task-evoked brain maps and show that the eigenvectors of the brain laplacian parsimoniously explain the activity patterns. Could brain anatomy have a downward effect on brain organisation?

      Response 23

      The reviewer raises a fascinating extension of our work identifying spatial modes of gene expression. We agree that these are low frequency in nature, but would first like to note that the newly introduced null model indicates that the overlaps with salient neuroanatomical features are inherent in the expression data and not purely driven by anatomy in a methodological sense.

      Nevertheless we absolutely agree there is likely to be a complex multidirectional interplay between genetic expression patterns through development, developing morphology and the “final” adult topography of expression, neuroanatomical and functional patterns.

      We think that the current manuscript currently contains a lot of in depth analyses of these expression data, but agree that a more extensive modeling analysis of how expression might pattern or explain functional activation would be a fascinating follow on, especially in light of these studies from Pang and Lefebre. Nevertheless we think that this must be left for a future modeling paper integrating these modes of microscale, macroscale and functional anatomy.

      In Discussion: "Indeed, future work might find direct links between these module eigenvectors and similar low-frequency eigenvectors of cortical geometry have been used as basis functions to segment the cortex (Lefèvre et al. 2018) and explain complex functional activation patterns(Pang et al. 2023)."

      Comment 24

      On p11: ASD related to rare, deleterious mutations of strong effect is often associated with intellectual disability (where the social interaction component of ASD is more challenging to assess). Was there some indication of a relationship with that type of cognitive phenotype?

      Response 24

      Across the two ABIDE cohorts, the total number of those with ASD and IQ <70, which is the clinical threshold for intellectual disability was n=10, which unfortunately did not allow us to conduct a meaningful test of whether ID impacts the relationship between imaging changes in ASD and the expression maps of genes implicated in ASD by rare variants.

      Comment 25

      Could you clarify if the 6 donors were aligned using the folding-based method in freesurfer?

      Response 25

      The 6 donors were aligned using MSMsulc (Robinson et al., 2014), which is a folding based method from the HCP group. This is now clarified in the methods.

      In Methods 1: "Cortical surfaces were reconstructed for each AHBA donor MRI using FreeSurfer(Fischl, 2012), and coregistered between donors using surface matching of individuals’ folding morphology (MSMSulc) (Robinson et al., 2018)."

      Comment 26

      The authors make available a rich resource and a series of tools to facilitate their use. They have paid attention to encode their data in standard formats, and their code was made in Python using freely accessible packages instead of proprietary alternatives such as matlab. All this should greatly facilitate the adoption of the approach. I think it would be important to state more explicitly the conceptual assumptions that the methodology brings. In the same way that a GWAS approach relies on a Mendelian idea that individual alleles encode for phenotypes, what is the idea about the organisation of the brain implied by the orthogonal gene expression modules? Is it that phenotypes - micro and macro - are encoded by linear combinations of a reduced number of gene expression patterns? What would be the role of the environment? The role of non-genic regulatory regions? Some modalities of functional organisation do not seem to be encoded by the expression of any module. Is it just for lack of data or should this be seen as the sign for a different organisational principle? Likewise, what about the aspects of disorders that are not captured by expression modules? Would that hint, for example, to stronger environmental effects? What about linear combinations of modules? Nonlinear? Overall, the authors adopt implicitly, en passant, a gene-centric conceptual standpoint, which would benefit from being more clearly identified and articulated. There are citations to Rakic's protomap idea (I would also cite the original 1988 paper, and O'Leary's 1989 "protocortex" paper stressing the role of plasticity), which proposes that a basic version of brain cytoarchitecture is genetically determined and transposed from the proliferative ventricular zone regions to the cortical plate through radial migration. In p13 the authors indicate that their results support Rakic's protomap. Additionally, in p7 the authors suggest that their results support a causal arrow going from gene expression to sulcal anatomy. The reviews by O'leary et al (2007), Ronan & Fletcher (2014, already cited), Llinares-Benadero & Borrell (2019) could be considered, which also advocate for a similar perspective. For nuances on the idea that molecular signals provide positional information for brain development, the article by Sharpe (2019, DOI: 10.1242/dev.185967) is interesting. For nuances on the gene-centric approach of the paper the articles by Rockmann (2012, DOI: 10.1111/j.1558-5646.2011.01486.x) but also from the ENCODE consortium showing the importance of non-genic regions of the genome ("Perspectives on ENCODE" 2020 DOI: 10.1038/s41586-021-04213-8) could be considered. I wouldn't ask to cite ideas from the extended evolutionary synthesis about different inheritance systems (as reviewed by Jablonka & Lamb, DOI: 10.1017/9781108685412) or the idea of inherency (Newman 2017, DOI: 10.1007/978-3-319-33038-9_78-1), but the authors may find them interesting. Same goes for our own work on mechanical morphogenesis which expands on the idea of a downward causality (Heuer and Toro 2019, DOI: 10.1016/j.plrev.2019.01.012)

      Response 26

      We thank the reviewer for recommending these papers, which we enjoyed reading and have deepened our thinking on the topic. In addition to toning down some of the language with respect to causality that our data cannot directly address, we have included additional discussion and references as follows:

      In Discussion: "By establishing that some of these cortical zones are evident at the time of cortical folding, we lend support to a “protomap”(Rakic 1988; O'Leary 1989; O'Leary et al. 2007; Rakic et al. 2009) like model where the placement of some cortical folds is set-up by rapid tangential changes in cyto-laminar composition of the developing cortex(Ronan et al., 2014; Toro and Burnod, 2005; Van Essen, 2020). The DEMs are derived from fully folded adult donors, and therefore some of the measured genetic-folding alignment might also be induced by mechanical distortion of the tissue during folding(Llinares-Benadero and Borrell 2019; Heuer and Toro 2019). However, no data currently exist to conclusively assess the directionality of this gene-folding relationship.

      Overall, the manuscript is very interesting and a great contribution. The amount of work involved is impressive, and the presentation of the results very clear. My comments indicate some aspects that could be made more clear, for example, providing additional methodological information in the supplemental material. Also, making aware the readers and future users of MAGICC of the methodological and conceptual challenges that remain to be addressed in the future for this field of research.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Comment 1

      The supplementary figures seem to be missing from the eLife submission (although I was able to find them on europepmc)

      Response 1

      We apologize that these were not included in the documents sent to reviewers. The up-to-date supplementary figures are included in this resubmission and again on biorxiv.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1

      Strengths:

      This study uses a carefully constructed experiment design and decision-making task that allows separation of multiple electroencephalographic (EEG) signals thought to track different stages of decision-making. For example, the steady-state visual evoked potential measures can be cleanly dissociated from more anterior beta-band activity over the motor cortex. They also allow evaluation of how cued expectancy effects may unfold over a number of testing sessions. This is important because the most consistent evidence of expectation-related modulations of electrophysiological measures (using EEG, local field potentials, or single neuron firing rates) is from studies of nonhuman primates that involved many days of cue-stimulus contingency learning, and there is a lack of similar work using several testing sessions in humans. Although there were several experimental conditions included in the study, careful trial-balancing was conducted to minimise biases due to incidental differences in the number of trials included for analyses across each condition. Performance for each individual was also carefully calibrated to maximise the possibility of identifying subtle changes in task performance by expectation and avoid floor or ceiling effects.

      We would like to thank Reviewer 1 for these very positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      Although the experiment and analysis methods are cohesive and well-designed, there are some shortcomings that limit the inferences that can be drawn from the presented findings.

      Comment #1

      The first relates to the measures of SSVEPs and their relevance for decision-making in the task. In order to eliminate the influence of sporadic pulses of contrast changes that occurred during stimulus presentation, a time window of 680-975 ms post-stimulus onset was used to measure the SSVEPs. The mean response times for the valid and neutral cues were around 850-900 ms for correct responses, and within the same time window for errors in the invalid cue condition. In addition, a large portion of response times in perceptual decision-making tasks are substantially faster than the mean due to right-skewed response time distributions that are typically observed. As it has also been estimated to require 70-100 ms to execute a motor action (e.g., a keypress response) following the commitment to a decision. This raises some concerns about the proportion of trials in which the contrast-dependent visual responses (indexed by the SSVEPs) indexed visual input that was actually used to make the decision in a given trial. Additional analyses of SSVEPs that take the trial-varying pulses into account could be run to determine whether expectations influenced visual responses earlier in the trial.

      The reviewer raises a very valid point and, indeed, it is an issue that we grappled with in our analyses. Actually, in this study, the RT distributions were not right-skewed, but appear to be relatively normal (RT distributions shown below). This is something that we have previously observed when using tasks that involve an initial zero-evidence lead in at the start of each trial which means that participants cannot start accumulating at stimulus onset and must rely on their knowledge of the lead-in duration to determine when the physical evidence has become available (e.g. Kelly et al 2021, Nat Hum Beh). We agree that it is important to establish whether the reported SSVEP modulations occur before or after choice commitment. In our original submission we had sought to address this question through our analysis of the response-locked ‘difference SSVEP’. Figure 4D clearly indicates that the cue modulations are evident before as well as after response.

      However, we have decided to include an additional Bayesian analysis of the response-locked signal to offer more evidence that the cue effect is not a post-response phenomenon.

      Manuscript Changes

      To quantify the evidence that the cue effect was not driven by changes in the signal after the response, we ran Bayesian one-way ANOVAs on the SSVEP comparing the difference across cue conditions before and after the response. If the cue effect only emerged after the response, we would expect the difference between invalid and neutral or invalid and valid cues to increase in the post-response window. There was no compelling evidence of an increase in the effect when comparing invalid to neutral (BF10 = 1.58) or valid cues (BF10 = 0.32).

      Comment #2

      Presenting response time quantile plots may also help to determine the proportions of motor responses (used to report a decision) that occurred during or after the SSVEP measurement window.

      We agree that it may be helpful for the reader to be able to determine the proportion of responses occurring at different phases of the trial, so we have included the requested response time quantile plot (shown below) as a supplementary figure.

      Author response image 1.

      Reaction time quantiles across cue conditions. The plot illustrates the proportion of trials where responses occurred at different stages of the trial. The SSVEP analysis window is highlighted in purple.

      Comment #3

      In addition, an argument is made for changes in the evidence accumulation rate (called the drift rate) by stimulus expectancy, corresponding to the observed changes in SSVEP measures and differences in the sensory encoding of the stimulus. This inference is limited by the fact that evidence accumulation models (such as the Diffusion Decision Model) were not used to test for drift rate changes as could be determined from the behavioural data (by modelling response time distributions). There appear to be ample numbers of trials per participant to test for drift rate changes in addition to the starting point bias captured in earlier models. Due to the very high number of trials, models could potentially be evaluated for each single participant. This would provide more direct evidence for drift rate changes than the findings based on the SSVEPs, particularly due to the issues with the measurement window relating to the response times as mentioned above.

      The focus of the present study was on testing for sensory-level modulations by predictive cues, rather than testing any particular models. Given that the SSVEP bears all the characteristics of a sensory evidence encoding signal, we believe it is reasonable to point out that its modulation by the cues would very likely translate to a drift rate effect. But we do agree with the reviewer that any connection between our results and previously reported drift rate effects can only be confirmed with modelling and we have tried to make this clear in the revised text. We plan to comprehensively model the data from this study in a future project. While we do indeed have the benefit of plenty of trials, the modelling process will not be straightforward as it will require taking account of the pulse effects which could have potentially complicated, non-linear effects. In the meantime, we have made changes to the text to qualify the suggestion and stress that modelling would be necessary to determine if our hypothesis about a drift rate effect is correct.

      Manuscript Changes

      (Discussion): [...] We suggest that participants may have been able to stabilise their performance across task exposure, despite reductions in the available sensory evidence, by incorporating the small sensory modulation we detected in the SSVEP. This would suggest that the decision process may not operate precisely as the models used in theoretical work describe. Instead, our study tentatively supports a small number of modelling investigations that have challenged the solitary role of starting point bias, implicating a drift bias (i.e. a modulation of the evidence before or upon entry to the decision variable) as an additional source of prior probability effects in perceptual decisions (Dunovan et al., 2014; Hanks et al., 2011; Kelly et al., 2021; van Ravenzwaaij et al., 2012 Wyart et al., 2012) and indicates that these drift biases could, at least partly, originate at the sensory level. However, this link could only be firmly established with modelling in a future study.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Comment #4

      The text for the axis labels and legends in the figures is quite small relative to the sizes of the accompanying plots. I would recommend to substantially increase the sizes of the text to aid readability.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have increased the size of the axis labels and made the text in the figure legends just 1pt smaller than the text in the main body of the manuscript.

      Comment #5

      It is unclear if the scalp maps for Figure 5 (showing the mu/beta distributions) are on the same scale or different scales. I assume they are on different scales (adjusted to the minimum/maximum within each colour map range), as a lack of consistent signals (in the neutral condition) would be expected to lead to a patchy pattern on the scalp as displayed in that figure (due to the colour range shrinking to the degree of noise across electrodes). I would recommend to include some sort of colour scale to show that, for example, in the neutral condition there are no large-amplitude mu/ beta fluctuations distributed somewhat randomly across the scalp.

      Thank you to the reviewer for pointing this out. They were correct, the original topographies were plotted according to their own scale. The topographies in Figure 5 have now been updated to put them on a common scale and we have included a colour bar (as shown below). The caption for Figure 5 has also been updated to confirm that the topos are on a common scale.

      Author response image 2.

      Manuscript Changes

      (Figure 5 Caption): [...] The topography of MB activity in the window - 200:0 ms before evidence onset is plotted on a common scale for neutral and cued conditions separately.

      Comment #6

      In Figure 2, the legend is split across the two panels, despite the valid/invalid/neutral legend also applying to the first panel. This gives an initial impression that the legend is incomplete for the first panel, which may confuse readers. I would suggest putting all of the legend entries in the first panel, so that all of this information is available to readers at once.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for spotting this. Figure 2 has been updated so that the full legend is presented in the first panel, as shown below.

      Author response image 3.

      Comment #7

      Although linear mixed-effects models (using Gaussian families) for response times are standard in the literature, they incorrectly specify the distributions of response times to be Gaussian instead of substantially right-skewed. Generalised linear mixed-effects models using gamma families and identity functions have been shown to more accurately model distributions of response times (see Lo and Andrews, 2015. Frontiers in Psychology). The authors may consider using these models in line with good practice, although it might not make a substantial difference relating to the patterns of response time differences.

      We appreciate this thoughtful comment from Reviewer 1. Although RT distributions are often right skewed, we have previously observed that RT distributions can be closer to normal when the trial incorporates a lead-in phase with no evidence (e.g. Kelly et al 2021, Nat Hum Beh). Indeed, the distributions we observed in this study were markedly Gaussian (as shown in the plot below). Given the shape of these distributions and the reviewer’s suggestion that adopting alternative models may not lead to substantial differences to our results, we have decided to leave the mixed effects models as they are in the manuscript, but we will take note of this advice in future work.

      Author response image 4.

      Reviewer #2

      Strengths:

      The work is executed expertly and focuses cleverly on two features of the EEG signals that can be closely connected to specific loci of the perceptual decision-making process - the SSVEP which connects closely to sensory (visual) encoding, and Mu-Beta lateralisation which connects closely to movement preparation. This is a very appropriate design choice given the authors' research question.

      Another advantage of the design is the use of an unusually long training regime (i.e., for humans) - which makes it possible to probe the emergence of different expectation biases in the brain over different timecourses, and in a way that may be more comparable to work with nonhuman animals (who are routinely trained for much longer than humans).

      We are very grateful for these positive comments from Reviewer 2.

      Weaknesses:

      In my view, the principal shortcoming of this study is that the experimental task confounds expectations about stimulus identity with expectations about to-be-performed responses. That is, cues in the task don't just tell participants what they will (probably) see, but what they (probably) should do.

      In many respects, this feature of the paradigm might seem inevitable, as if specific stimuli are not connected to specific responses, it is not possible to observe motor preparation of this kind (e.g., de Lange, Rahnev, Donner & Lau, 2013 - JoN).

      However, the theoretical models that the authors focus on (e.g., drift-diffusion models) are models of decision (i.e., commitment to a proposition about the world) as much as they are models of choice (i.e., commitment to action). Expectation researchers interested in these models are often interested in asking whether predictions influence perceptual processing, perceptual decision, and/ or response selection stages (e.g., Feuerriegel, Blom & Hoogendorn, 2021 - Cortex), and other researchers have shown that parameters like drift bias and start point bias can be shifted in paradigms where observers cannot possibly prepare a response (e.g., Thomas, Yon, de Lange & Press, 2020 - Psych Sci).

      The present paradigm used by Walsh et al makes it possible to disentangle sensory processing from later decisional processes, but it blurs together the processes of deciding about the stimulus and choosing/initiating the response. This ultimately limits the insights we can draw from this study - as it remains unclear whether rapid changes in motor preparation we see reflect rapid acquisition of new decision criterion or simple cue-action learning. I think this would be important for comprehensively testing the models the authors target - and a good avenue for future work.

      Thank you to Reviewer 2 for these observations. We adopted this paradigm because it is typical of the perceptual decision making literature and our central focus in this study was to test for a sensory-level modulation as a source of a decision bias. We are pleased that the Reviewer agrees that the paradigm successfully disentangles sensory encoding from later decisional processes since this was our priority. However, we agree with Reviewer 2 that because the response mapping was known to the participants, the cues predicted both the outcome of the perceptual decision (“Is this a left- or right-tilted grating?”) and the motor response that the participant should anticipate making (“It’s probably going to be a left click on this trial”). They are correct that this makes it difficult to know whether the changes in motor preparation elicited by the predictive cues reflect action-specific preparation or a more general shift in the boundaries associated with the alternate perceptual interpretations. We fully agree that it remains an interesting and important question and in our future work we hope to conduct investigations that better dissect the distinct components of the decision process during prior-informed decisions. In the interim, we have made some changes to the manuscript to reflect the Reviewer’s concerns and better address this limitation of the study design (these are detailed in the response to the comment below).

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Comment #8

      As in my public review, my main recommendation to the authors is to think a bit more in the presentation of the Introduction and Discussion about the difference between 'perceiving', 'deciding', and 'responding'.

      The paper is presently framed in terms of the debates around whether expectations bias decision or bias perception - and these debates are in turn mapped onto different aspects of the driftdiffusion model. Biases in sensory gain, for instance, are connected to biases in the drift rate parameter, while decisional shifts are connected to parameters like start points.

      In line with this kind of typology, the authors map their particular EEG signals (SSVEP and MB lateralisation) onto perception and decision. I see the logic, but I think the reality of these models is more nuanced.

      In particular, strictly speaking, the process of evidence accumulation to bound is the formation of a 'decision' (i.e., a commitment to having seen a particular stimulus). Indeed, the dynamics of this process have been beautifully described by other authors on this paper in the past. Since observers in this task simultaneously form decisions and prepare actions (because stimuli and responses are confounded) it is unclear whether changes in motor preparation are reflecting changes in what perceivers 'decide' (i.e., changes in what crosses the decision threshold) or what they 'do' (i.e., changes in the motor response threshold). This is particularly important for the debate around whether expectations change 'perception' or 'decision' because - in some accounts - is the accumulation of evidence to the bound that is hypothesised to cause the perceptual experience observers actually have (Pereira, Perrin & Faivre, 2022 - TiCS). The relevant 'bound' here though is not the bound to push the button, but the bound for the brain to decide what one is actually 'seeing'.

      I completely understand the logic behind the authors' choices, but I would have liked more discussion of this issue. In particular, it seems strange to me to talk about the confounding of stimuli and responses as a particular 'strength' of this design in the manuscript - when really it is a 'necessary evil' for getting the motor preparation components to work. Here is one example from the Introduction:

      "While some have reported expectation effects in humans using EEG/MEG, these studies either measured sensory signals whose relevance to the decision process is uncertain (e.g. Blom et al., 2020; Solomon et al., 2021; Tang et al., 2018) and/or used cues that were implicit or predicted a forthcoming stimulus but not the correct choice alternative (e.g. Aitken et al., 2020; Feuerriegel et al., 2021b; Kok et al., 2017). To assess whether prior probabilities modulate sensory-level signals directly related to participants' perceptual decisions, we implemented a contrast discrimination task in which the cues explicitly predicted the correct choice and where sensory signals that selectively trace the evidence feeding the decision process could be measured during the process of deliberation."

      I would contend that this design allows you to pinpoint signals related to participant's 'choices' or 'actions' but not necessarily their 'decisions' in the sense outlined above.

      As I say though, I don't think this is fatal and I think the paper is extremely interesting in any case. But I think it would be strengthened if some of these nuances were discussed a bit more explicitly, as a 'perceptual decision' is more than pushing a button. Indeed, the authors might want to consider discussing work that shows the neural overlap between deciding and acting breaks down when Ps cannot anticipate which actions to use to report their choices ahead of time (Filimon, Philiastides, Nelson, Kloosterman & Heekeren, 2013 - JoN) and/or work which has combined expectations with drift diffusion modelling to show how expectations change drift bias (Yon, Zainzinger, de Lange, Eimer & Press, 2020 - JEP:General) and/or start bias (Thomas, Yon, de Lange & Press, 2020 - Psych Sci) even when Ps cannot prepare a motor response ahead of time.

      While our focus was on testing for sensory-level modulations, we think the question of whether the motor-level effects we observed are attributable to the task design or represents a more general perceptual bound adjustment is an important question for future research. In our previous work, we have examined this distinction between abstract, movement-independent evidence accumulation (indexed by the centro-parietal positivity, CPP) and response preparation in detail. The CPP has been shown to trace evidence accumulation irrespective of whether the sensory alternatives are associated with a specific response or not (Twomey et al 2016, J Neurosci). When speed pressure is manipulated in tasks with fixed stimulus-response mappings we have found that the CPP undergoes systematic adjustments in its pre-response amplitude that closely accord with the starting-level modulations observed in mu/beta, suggesting that motor-level adjustments do still translate to differences at the perceptual level under these task conditions (e.g. Kelly et al 2021, Nat Hum Beh; Steinemann et al., 2018, Nat Comms). We have also observed that the CPP and mu-beta exhibit corresponding adjustments in response to predictive cues (Kelly et al., 2021) that are consistent with both a starting-point shift and drift rate bias. However, the Kelly et al. study did not include a signature of sensory encoding and therefore could not test for sensory-level modulations.

      We have added some remarks to the discussion to acknowledge this issue with the interpretation of the preparatory shifts in mu-beta activity we observed when the predictive cues were presented, and we have included references to the papers that the reviewer helpfully provided. We have also offered some additional consideration of the features of the task design that may have influenced the SSVEP results.

      Manuscript Changes

      An implication of using cues that predict not just the upcoming stimulus, but the most likely response, is that it becomes difficult to determine if preparatory shifts in mu-beta (MB) activity that we observed reflect adjustments directly influencing the perceptual interpretation of the stimulus or simply preparation of the more probable action. When perceptual decisions are explicitly tied to particular modes of response, the decision state can be read from activity in motor regions associated with the preparation of that kind of action (e.g. de Lafuente et al., 2015; Ding & Gold, 2012; Shadlen & Newsome, 2001; Romo et al., 2004), but these modules appear to be part of a constellation of decision-related areas that are flexibly recruited based on the response modality (e.g. Filimon et al., 2013). When the response mapping is withheld or no response is required, MB no longer traces decision formation (Twomey et al., 2015), but an abstract decision process is still readily detectable (e.g. O’Connell et al., 2012), and modelling work suggests that drift biases and starting point biases (Thomas et al., 2020; Yon et al., 2021) continue to influence prior-informed decision making. While the design of the present study does not allow us to offer further insight about whether the MB effects we observed were inherited from strategic adjustments at this abstract level of the decision process, we hope to conduct investigations in the future that better dissect the distinct components of prior-informed decisions to address this question.

      Several other issues remain unaddressed by the present study. One, is that it is not clear to what extent the sensory effects may be influenced by features of the task design (e.g. speeded responses under a strict deadline) and if these sensory effects would generalise to many kinds of perceptual decision-making tasks or whether they are particular to contrast discrimination.

      Comment #9

      On a smaller, unrelated point - I thought the discussion in the Discussion section about expectation suppression was interesting, but I did not think it was completely logically sound. The authors suggest that they may see relative suppression (rather than enhancement) of their marginal SSVEP under a 'sharpening' account because these accounts suggest that there is a relative suppression of off-channel sensory units, and there are more off-channel sensory units than onchannel sensory units (i.e., there are usually more possibilities we don't expect than possibilities that we do, and suppressing the things we don't expect should therefore yield overall suppression).

      However, this strikes me as a non-sequitur given that the marginal SSVEP only reflects featurespecific visual activity (i.e., activity tuned to one of the two grating stimuli used). The idea that there are more off-channel than on-channel units makes sense for explaining why we would see overall signal drops on expected trials e.g., in an entire visual ROI in an fMRI experiment. But surely this explanation cannot hold in this case, as there is presumably an equal number of units tuned to each particular grating?

      My sense is that this possibility should probably be removed from the manuscript - and I suspect it is more likely that the absence of a difference in marginal SSVEP for Valid vs Neutral trials has more to do with the fact that participants appear to be especially attentive on Neutral trials (and so any relative enhancement of feature-specific activity for expected events is hard to detect against a baseline of generally high-precision sensory evidence on these highly attentive, neutral trials).

      We thank the reviewer for flagging that we did not clearly articulate our thoughts in this section of the manuscript. Our primary purpose in mentioning this sharpening account was simply to point out that, where at first blush our results seem to conflict with expectation suppression effects in the fMRI literature, the sharpening account provides an explanation that can reconcile them. In the case of BOLD data, the sharpening account proposes that on-channel sensory units are boosted and off-channel units are suppressed and, due to the latter being more prevalent, this leads to an overall suppression of the global signal. In the case of the SSVEP, the signal isolates just the onunits and so the sharpening account would predict that when there is a valid cue, the SSVEP signal associated with the high-contrast, expected stimulus should be boosted and the SSVEP signal associated with the low-contrast, unexpected stimulus should be weakened; this would result in a larger difference between these signals and therefore, a larger ‘marginal SSVEP’. Conversely, when there is an invalid cue, the SSVEP signal associated with the, now unexpected, high-contrast stimulus should be relatively weakened and the SSVEP signal associated with the expected, but low-contrast stimulus should be relatively boosted; this would result in a smaller difference between these signals and therefore, a lower amplitude marginal SSVEP. We do not think that this account needs to make reference to any channels beyond those feature-specific channels driving the two SSVEP signals. Again our central point is simply that the sharpening account offers a means of reconciling our SSVEP findings with expectation suppression effects previously reported in the fMRI literature.

      We suspect that this was not adequately explained in the discussion. We have adjusted the way this section is phrased to make it clear that we are not invoking off-channel activity to explain the SSVEP effect we observed and we thank the Reviewer for pointing out that this was unclear in the original text.

      Manuscript Changes

      An alternative account for expectation suppression effects, which is consistent with our SSVEP results, is that they arise, not from a suppression of expected activity, but from a ‘sharpening’ effect whereby the response of neurons that are tuned to the expected feature are enhanced while the responses of neurons tuned to unexpected features are suppressed (de Lange et al., 2018). On this account, the expectation suppression commonly reported in fMRI studies arises because voxels contain intermingled populations with diverse stimulus preferences and the populations tuned to the unexpected features outnumber those tuned to the expected feature. In contrast to these fMRI data, the SSVEP represents the activity of sensory units driven at the same frequency as the stimulus, and thus better isolates the feature-specific populations encoding the task-relevant sensory evidence. Therefore, according to the sharpening account, an invalid cue would have enhanced the SSVEP signal associated with the low contrast grating and weakened the SSVEP signal associated with the high contrast grating. As this would result in a smaller difference between these signals, and therefore, a lower amplitude marginal SSVEP compared to the neutral cue condition, this could explain the effect we observed. 

      Reviewer #3

      Observers make judgements about expected stimuli faster and more accurately. How expectations facilitate such perceptual decisions remains an ongoing area of investigation, however, as expectations may exert their effects in multiple ways. Expectations may directly influence the encoding of sensory signals. Alternatively (or additionally), expectations may influence later stages of decision-making, such as motor preparation, when they bear on the appropriate behavioral response.

      In the present study, Walsh and colleagues directly measured the effect of expectations on sensory and motor signals by making clever use of the encephalogram (EEG) recorded from human observers performing a contrast discrimination task. On each trial, a predictive cue indicated which of two superimposed stimuli would likely be higher contrast and, therefore, whether a left or right button press was likely to yield a correct response. Deft design choices allowed the authors to extract both contrast-dependent sensory signals and motor preparation signals from the EEG. The authors provide compelling evidence that, when predictive cues provide information about both a forthcoming stimulus and the appropriate behavioral response, expectation effects are immediately manifest in motor preparation signals and only emerge in sensory signals after extensive training.

      Future work should attempt to reconcile these results with related investigations in the field. As the authors note, several groups have reported expectation-induced modulation of sensory signals (using both fMRI and EEG/MEG) on shorter timescales (e.g. just one or two sessions of a few hundred trials, versus the intensive multi-session study reported here). One interesting possibility is that perceptual expectations are not automatic but demand the deployment of feature-based attention, while motor preparation is comparatively less effortful and so dominates when both sources of information are available, as in the present study. This hypothesis is consistent with the authors' thoughtful analysis showing decreased neural signatures of attention over posterior electrodes following predictive cues. Therefore, observing the timescale of sensory effects using the same design and methods (facilitating direct comparison with the present work), but altering task demands slightly such that cues are no longer predictive of the appropriate behavioral response, could be illuminating.

      We would like to thank Reviewer 3 for their positive comments and thoughtful suggestions for future work.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Comment #10

      In the methods, the term 'session' is used early on but only fleshed out at the end of the 'Procedure' subsection and never entirely explained (e.g., did sessions take place over multiple days?). A brief sentence laying this out early on, perhaps in 'Participants' after the (impressive) trial counts are reported, might be helpful.

      Thank you to Reviewer 3 for pointing out that this was not clear in the original draft. We have amended the text in the Methods section to better explain the relationship between sessions, days, and trial bins.

      Manuscript Changes

      (Methods - Participants): [...] All procedures were approved by the Trinity College Dublin School of Psychology Ethics Committee and were in accordance with the Declaration of Helsinki. Participants completed between 4 and 6 testing sessions, each on a different day. While the sample size was small, on average, participants completed 5750 (SD = 1066) trials each.

      (Methods - Data Analysis): [...] As there were two lengths of testing session and participants completed different numbers of sessions, we analysed the effect of task exposure by pooling trials within-subjects and dividing them into five ‘trial bins’. The first bin represents the participants’ earliest exposure to the task and the final bin represents trials at the end of their participation, when they had had substantial task exposure. All trials with valid responses and reaction times greater than 100 ms were included in the analyses of behavioural data and the SSVEP.

      Comment #11

      On a related note: participants completed a variable number of trials/sessions. To facilitate comparison across subjects, training effects are reported by dividing each subject's data into 5 exposure bins. This is entirely reasonable but does leave the reader wondering about whether you found any effects of rest or sleep between sessions.

      We agree with the reviewer that this is an interesting question that absolutely merits further investigation. As different participants completed different numbers of sessions, different session lengths, and had variable gaps between their sessions, we do not think a per-session analysis would be informative. We think it may be better addressed in a future study, perhaps one with a larger sample where we could collect data specifically about sleep and more systematically control the intervals between testing sessions.

      Comment #12

      Fig 2B: the 'correct' and 'neutral' labels in the legend are switched

      Thank you to the reviewer for spotting that error, the labels in Figure 2 have been corrected.

      Comment #13

      Fig 4B: it's a bit difficult to distinguish which lines are 'thick' and 'thin'

      We have updated Figure 4.B to increase the difference in line thickness between the thick and thin lines (as shown below).

      Author response image 5.

      Comment #14

      Fig 4C: missing (I believe?) the vertical lines indicating median reaction time

      We have updated Figure 4.C to include the median reaction times.

      Author response image 6.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This important work presents a new methodology for the statistical analysis of fiber photometry data, improving statistical power while avoiding the bias inherent in the choices that are necessarily made when summarizing photometry data. The reanalysis of two recent photometry data sets, the simulations, and the mathematical detail provide convincing evidence for the utility of the method and the main conclusions, however, the discussion of the re-analyzed data is incomplete and would be improved by a deeper consideration of the limitations of the original data. In addition, consideration of other data sets and photometry methodologies including non-linear analysis tools, as well as a discussion of the importance of the data normalization are needed.

      Thank you for reviewing our manuscript and giving us the opportunity to respond and improve our paper. In our revision, we have strived to address the points raised in the comments, and implement suggested changes where feasible. We have also improved our package and created an analysis guide (available on our Github - https://github.com/gloewing/fastFMM and https://github.com/gloewing/photometry_fGLMM), showing users how to apply our methods and interpret their results. Below, we provide a detailed point-by-point response to the reviewers.

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      Fiber photometry has become a very popular tool in recording neuronal activity in freely behaving animals. Despite the number of papers published with the method, as the authors rightly note, there are currently no standardized ways to analyze the data produced. Moreover, most of the data analyses confine to simple measurements of averaged activity and by doing so, erase valuable information encoded in the data. The authors offer an approach based on functional linear mixed modeling, where beyond changes in overall activity various functions of the data can also be analyzed. More in-depth analysis, more variables taken into account, and better statistical power all lead to higher quality science.

      Strengths:

      The framework the authors present is solid and well-explained. By reanalyzing formerly published data, the authors also further increase the significance of the proposed tool opening new avenues for reinterpreting already collected data.

      Thank you for your favorable and detailed description of our work!

      Weaknesses:

      However, this also leads to several questions. The normalization method employed for raw fiber photometry data is different from lab to lab. This imposes a significant challenge to applying a single tool of analysis.

      Thank you for these important suggestions. We agree that many data pre-processing steps will influence the statistical inference from our method. Note, though, that this would also be the case with standard analysis approaches (e.g., t-tests, correlations) applied to summary measures like AUCs. For that reason, we do not believe that variability in pre-processing is an impediment to widespread adoption of a standard analysis procedure. Rather, we would argue that the sensitivity of analysis results to pre-processing choices should motivate the development of statistical techniques that reduce the need for pre-processing, and properly account for structure in the data arising from experimental designs. For example, even without many standard pre-processing steps, FLMM provides smooth estimation results across trial timepoints (i.e., the “functional domain”), has the ability to adjust for betweentrial and -animal heterogeneity, and provides a valid statistical inference framework that quantifies the resulting uncertainty. We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to emphasize and further elaborate on our method from this perspective. We have now included the following in the Discussion section:

      “FLMM can help model signal components unrelated to the scientific question of interest, and provides a systematic framework to quantify the additional uncertainty from those modeling choices. For example, analysts sometimes normalize data with trial-specific baselines because longitudinal experiments can induce correlation patterns across trials that standard techniques (e.g., repeated measures ANOVA) may not adequately account for. Even without many standard data pre-processing steps, FLMM provides smooth estimation results across trial time-points (the “functional domain”), has the ability to adjust for between-trial and -animal heterogeneity, and provides a valid statistical inference approach that quantifies the resulting uncertainty. For instance, session-to-session variability in signal magnitudes or dynamics (e.g., a decreasing baseline within-session from bleaching or satiation) could be accounted for, at least in part, through the inclusion of trial-level fixed or random effects. Similarly, signal heterogeneity due to subject characteristics (e.g., sex, CS+ cue identity) could be incorporated into a model through inclusion of animal-specific random effects. Inclusion of these effects would then influence the width of the confidence intervals. By expressing one’s “beliefs” in an FLMM model specification, one can compare models (e.g., with AIC). Even the level of smoothing in FLMM is largely selected as a function of the data, and is accounted for directly in the equations used to construct confidence intervals. This stands in contrast to “trying to clean up the data” with a pre-processing step that may have an unknown impact on the final statistical inferences.”

      Does the method that the authors propose work similarly efficiently whether the data are normalized in a running average dF/F as it is described in the cited papers? For example, trace smoothing using running averages (Jeong et al. 2022) in itself may lead to pattern dilution.

      By modeling trial signals as “functions”, the method accounts for and exploits correlation across trial timepoints and, as such, any pre-smoothing of the signals should not negatively affect the validity of the 95% CI coverage. It will, however, change inferential results and the interpretation of the data, but this is not unique to FLMM, or many other statistical procedures.

      The same question applies if the z-score is calculated based on various responses or even baselines. How reliable the method is if the data are non-stationery and the baselines undergo major changes between separate trials?

      Adjustment for trial-to-trial variability in signal magnitudes or dynamics could be accounted for, at least in part, through the inclusion of trial-level random effects. This heterogeneity would then influence the width of the confidence intervals, directly conveying the effect of the variability on the conclusions being drawn from the data. This stands in contrast to “trying to clean up the data” with a pre-processing step that may have an unknown impact on the final statistical inferences. Indeed, non-stationarity (e.g., a decreasing baseline within-session) due to, for example, measurement artifacts (e.g., bleaching) or behavioral causes (e.g., satiation, learning) should, if possible, be accounted for in the model. As mentioned above, one can often achieve the same goals that motivate pre-processing steps by instead applying specific FLMM models (e.g., that include trial-specific intercepts to reflect changes in baseline) to the unprocessed data. One can then compare model criteria in an objective fashion (e.g., with AIC) and quantify the uncertainty associated with those modeling choices. Even the level of smoothing in FLMM is largely selected as a function of the data, and is accounted for directly in the equations used to construct confidence intervals. In sum, our method provides both a tool to account for challenges in the data, and a systematic framework to quantify the additional uncertainty that accompanies accounting for those data characteristics.

      Finally, what is the rationale for not using non-linear analysis methods? Following the paper’s logic, non-linear analysis can capture more information that is diluted by linear methods.

      This is a good question that we imagine many readers will be curious about as well. We have added in notes to the Discussion and Methods Section 4.3 to address this (copied below). We thank the reviewer for raising this point, as your feedback also motivated us to discuss this point in Part 5 of our Analysis Guide.

      Methods

      “FLMM models each trial’s signal as a function that varies smoothly across trial time-points (i.e., along the “functional domain”). It is thus a type of non-linear modeling technique over the functional domain, since we do not assume a linear model (straight line). FLMM and other functional data analysis methods model data as functions, when there is a natural ordering (e.g., time-series data are ordered by time, imaging data are ordered by x-y coordinates), and are assumed to vary smoothly along the functional domain (e.g., one assumes values of a photometry signal at close time-points in a trial have similar values). Functional data analysis approaches exploit this smoothness and natural ordering to capture more information during estimation and inference.”

      Discussion

      “In this paper, we specified FLMM models with linear covariate–signal relationships at a fixed trial time-point across trials/sessions, to compare the FLMM analogue of the analyses conducted in (Jeong et al., 2022). However, our package allows modeling of covariate–signal relationships with non-linear functions of covariates, using splines or other basis functions. One must consider, however, the tradeoff between flexibility and interpretability when specifying potentially complex models, especially since FLMM is designed for statistical inference.”

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary:

      This work describes a statistical framework that combines functional linear mixed modeling with joint 95% confidence intervals, which improves statistical power and provides less conservative statistical inferences than in previous studies. As recently reviewed by Simpson et al. (2023), linear regression analysis has been used extensively to analyze time series signals from a wide range of neuroscience recording techniques, with recent studies applying them to photometry data. The novelty of this study lies in 1) the introduction of joint 95% confidence intervals for statistical testing of functional mixed models with nested random-effects, and 2) providing an open-source R package implementing this framework. This study also highlights how summary statistics as opposed to trial-by-trial analysis can obscure or even change the direction of statistical results by reanalyzing two other studies.

      Strengths:

      The open-source package in R using a similar syntax as the lme4 package for the implementation of this framework on photometry data enhances the accessibility, and usage by other researchers. Moreover, the decreased fitting time of the model in comparison with a similar package on simulated data, has the potential to be more easily adopted.

      The reanalysis of two studies using summary statistics on photometry data (Jeong et al., 2022; Coddington et al., 2023) highlights how trial-by-trial analysis at each time-point on the trial can reveal information obscured by averaging across trials. Furthermore, this work also exemplifies how session and subject variability can lead to opposite conclusions when not considered.

      We appreciate the in-depth description of our work and, in particular, the R package. This is an area where we put a lot of effort, since our group is very concerned with the practical experience of users.

      Weaknesses:

      Although this work has reanalyzed previous work that used summary statistics, it does not compare with other studies that use trial-by-trial photometry data across time-points in a trial. As described by the authors, fitting pointwise linear mixed models and performing t-test and BenjaminiHochberg correction as performed in Lee et al. (2019) has some caveats. Using joint confidence intervals has the potential to improve statistical robustness, however, this is not directly shown with temporal data in this work. Furthermore, it is unclear how FLMM differs from the pointwise linear mixed modeling used in this work.

      Thank you for making this important point. We agree that this offers an opportunity to showcase the advantages of FLMM over non-functional data analysis methods, such as the approach applied in Lee et al. (2019). As mentioned in the text, fitting entirely separate models at each trial timepoint (without smoothing regression coefficient point and variance estimates across timepoints), and applying multiple comparisons corrections as a function of the number of time points has substantial conceptual drawbacks. To see why, consider that applying this strategy with two different sub-sampling rates requires adjustment for different numbers of comparisons, and could thus lead to very different proportions of timepoints achieving statistical significance. In light of your comments, we decided that it would be useful to provide a demonstration of this. To that effect, we have added Appendix Section 2 comparing FLMM with the method in Lee et al. (2019) on a real dataset, and show that FLMM yields far less conservative and more stable inference across different sub-sampling rates. We conducted this comparison on the delay-length experiment (shown in Figure 6) data, sub-sampled at evenly spaced intervals at a range of sampling rates. We fit either a collection of separate linear mixed models (LMM) followed by a Benjamini–Hochberg (BH) correction, or FLMM with statistical significance determined with both Pointwise and Joint 95% CIs. As shown in Appendix Tables 1-2, the proportion of timepoints at which effects are statistically significant with FLMM Joint CIs is fairly stable across sampling rates. In contrast, the percentage is highly inconsistent with the BH approach and is often highly conservative. This illustrates a core advantage of functional data analysis methods: borrowing strength across trial timepoints (i.e., the functional domain), can improve estimation efficiency and lower sensitivity to how the data is sub-sampled. A multiple comparisons correction may, however, yield stable results if one first smooths both regression coefficient point and variance estimates. Because this includes smoothing the coefficient point and variance estimates, this approach would essentially constitute a functional mixed model estimation strategy that uses multiple comparisons correction instead of a joint CI. We have now added in a description of this experiment in Section 2.4 (copied below).

      “We further analyze this dataset in Appendix Section 2, to compare FLMM with the approach applied in Lee et al. (2019) of fitting pointwise LMMs (without any smoothing) and applying a Benjamini–Hochberg (BH) correction. Our hypothesis was that the Lee et al. (2019) approach would yield substantially different analysis results, depending on the sampling rate of the signal data (since the number of tests being corrected for is determined by the sampling rate). The proportion of timepoints at which effects are deemed statistically significant by FLMM joint 95% CIs is fairly stable across sampling rates. In contrast, that proportion is both inconsistent and often low (i.e., highly conservative) across sampling rates with the Lee et al. (2019) approach. These results illustrate the advantages of modeling a trial signal as a function, and conducting estimation and inference in a manner that uses information across the entire trial.”

      In this work, FLMM usages included only one or two covariates. However, in complex behavioral experiments, where variables are correlated, more than two may be needed (see Simpson et al. (2023), Engelhard et al. (2019); Blanco-Pozo et al. (2024)). It is not clear from this work, how feasible computationally would be to fit such complex models, which would also include more complex random effects.

      Thank you for bringing this up, as we endeavored to create code that is able to scale to complex models and large datasets. We agree that highlighting this capability in the paper will strengthen the work. We now state in the Discussion section that “[T]he package is fast and maintains a low memory footprint even for complex models (see Section 4.6 for an example) and relatively large datasets.” Methods Section 4.6 now includes the following:

      Our fastFMM package scales to the dataset sizes and model specifications common in photometry. The majority of the analyses presented in the Results Section (Section 2) included fairly simple functional fixed and random effect model specifications because we were implementing the FLMM versions of the summary measure analyses presented in Jeong et al. (2022). However, we fit the following FLMM to demonstrate the scalability of our method with more complex model specifications:

      We use the same notation as the Reward Number model in Section 4.5.2, with the additional variable TL_i,j,l_ denoting the Total Licks on trial j of session l for animal i. In a dataset with over 3,200 total trials (pooled across animals), this model took ∼1.2 min to fit on a MacBook Pro with an Apple M1 Max chip with 64GB of RAM. Model fitting had a low memory footprint. This can be fit with the code:

      model_fit = fui(photometry ~ session + trial + iri + lick_time + licks + (session + trial + iri + lick_time + licks | id), parallel = TRUE, data = photometry_data)

      This provides a simple illustration of the scalability of our method. The code (including timing) for this demonstration is now included on our Github repository.

      Reviewer #3:

      Summary:

      Loewinger et al., extend a previously described framework (Cui et al., 2021) to provide new methods for statistical analysis of fiber photometry data. The methodology combines functional regression with linear mixed models, allowing inference on complex study designs that are common in photometry studies. To demonstrate its utility, they reanalyze datasets from two recent fiber photometry studies into mesolimbic dopamine. Then, through simulation, they demonstrate the superiority of their approach compared to other common methods.

      Strengths:

      The statistical framework described provides a powerful way to analyze photometry data and potentially other similar signals. The provided package makes this methodology easy to implement and the extensively worked examples of reanalysis provide a useful guide to others on how to correctly specify models.

      Modeling the entire trial (function regression) removes the need to choose appropriate summary statistics, removing the opportunity to introduce bias, for example in searching for optimal windows in which to calculate the AUC. This is demonstrated in the re-analysis of Jeong et al., 2022, in which the AUC measures presented masked important details about how the photometry signal was changing.

      Meanwhile, using linear mixed methods allows for the estimation of random effects, which are an important consideration given the repeated-measures design of most photometry studies.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for the deep reading and understanding of our paper and method, and the thoughtful feedback provided. We agree with this summary, and will respond in detail to all the concerns raised.

      Weaknesses:

      While the availability of the software package (fastFMM), the provided code, and worked examples used in the paper are undoubtedly helpful to those wanting to use these methods, some concepts could be explained more thoroughly for a general neuroscience audience.

      Thank you for this point. While we went to great effort to explain things clearly, our efforts to be concise likely resulted in some lack of clarity. To address this, we have created a series of analysis guides for a more general neuroscience audience, reflecting our experience working with researchers at the NIH and the broader community. These guides walk users through the code, its deployment in typical scenarios, and the interpretation of results.

      While the methodology is sound and the discussion of its benefits is good, the interpretation and discussion of the re-analyzed results are poor:

      In section 2.3, the authors use FLMM to identify an instance of Simpson’s Paradox in the analysis of Jeong et al. (2022). While this phenomenon is evident in the original authors’ metrics (replotted in Figure 5A), FLMM provides a convenient method to identify these effects while illustrating the deficiencies of the original authors’ approach of concatenating a different number of sessions for each animal and ignoring potential within-session effects.

      Our goal was to demonstrate that FLMM provides insight into why the opposing within- and between-session effects occur: the between-session and within-session changes appear to occur at different trial timepoints. Thus, while the AUC metrics applied in Jeong et al. (2022) are enough to show the presence of Simpson’s paradox, it is difficult to hypothesize why the opposing within-/between-session effects occur. An AUC analysis cannot determine at what trial timepoints (relative to licking) those opposing trends occur.

      The discussion of this result is muddled. Having identified the paradox, there is some appropriate speculation as to what is causing these opposing effects, particularly the decrease in sessions. In the discussion and appendices, the authors identify (1) changes in satiation/habitation/motivation, (2) the predictability of the rewards (presumably by the click of a solenoid valve) and (3) photobleaching as potential explanations of the decrease within days. Having identified these effects, but without strong evidence to rule all three out, the discussion of whether RPE or ANCCR matches these results is probably moot. In particular, the hypotheses developed by Jeong et al., were for a random (unpredictable) rewards experiment, whereas the evidence points to the rewards being sometimes predictable. The learning of that predictability (e.g. over sessions) and variation in predictability (e.g. by attention level to sounds of each mouse) significantly complicate the analysis. The FLMM analysis reveals the complexity of analyzing what is apparently a straightforward task design.

      While we are disappointed to hear the reviewer felt our initial interpretations and discussion were poor, the reviewer brings up an excellent point re: potential reward predictability that we had not considered. They have convinced us that acknowledging this alternative perspective will strengthen the paper, and we have added it into the Discussion. We agree that the ANCCR/RPE model predictions were made for unpredictable rewards and, as the reviewer rightly points out, there is evidence that the animals may sense the reward delivery. After discussing extensively with the authors of Jeong et al. (2022), it is clear that they went to enormous trouble to prevent the inadvertent generation of a CS+, and it is likely changes in pressure from the solenoid (rather than a sound) that may have served as a cue. Regardless of the learning theory one adopts (RPE, ANCCR or others), we agree that this potential learned predictability could, at least partially, account for the increase in signal magnitude across sessions. As this paper is focused on analysis methods, we feel that we can contribute most thoughtfully to the dopamine–learning theory conversation by presenting this explanation in detail, for consideration in future experiments. We have substantially edited this discussion and, as per the reviewer’s suggestion, have qualified our interpretations to reflect the uncertainty in explaining the observed trends.

      If this paper is not trying to arbitrate between RPE and ANCCR, as stated in the text, the post hoc reasoning of the authors of Jeong et al 2022 provided in the discussion is not germane. Arbitrating between the models likely requires new experimental designs (removing the sound of the solenoid, satiety controls) or more complex models (e.g. with session effects, measures of predictability) that address the identified issues.

      Thank you for this point. We agree with you that, given the scope of the paper, we should avoid any extensive comparison between the models. To address your comment, we have now removed portions of the Discussion that compared RPE and ANCCR. Overall, we agree with the reviewer, and think that future experiments will be needed for conclusively testing the accuracy of the models’ predictions for random (unpredicted) rewards. While we understand that our description of several conversations with the Jeong et al., 2022 authors could have gone deeper, we hope the reviewer can appreciate that inclusion of these conversations was done with the best of intentions. We wish to emphasize that we also consulted with several other researchers in the field when crafting our discussion. We do commend the authors of Jeong et al., 2022 for their willingness to discuss all these details. They could easily have avoided acknowledging any potential incompleteness of their theory by claiming that our results do not invalidate their predictions for a random reward, because the reward could potentially have been predicted (due to an inadvertent CS+ generated from the solenoid pressure). Instead, they emphasized that they thought their experiment did test a random reward, to the extent they could determine, and that our results suggest components of their theory that should be updated. We think that engagement with re-analyses of one’s data, even when findings are at odds with an initial theoretical framing, is a good demonstration of open science practice. For that reason as well, we feel providing readers with a perspective on the entire discussion will contribute to the scientific discourse in this area.

      Finally, we would like to reiterate that this conversation is happening at least in part because of our method: by analyzing the signal at every trial timepoint, it provides a formal way to test for the presence of a neural signal indicative of reward delivery perception. Ultimately, this was what we set out to do: help researchers ask questions of their data that may have been harder to ask before. We believe that having a demonstration that we can indeed do this for a “live” scientific issue is the most appropriate way of demonstrating the usefulness of the method.

      Of the three potential causes of within-session decreases, the photobleaching arguments advanced in the discussion and expanded greatly in the appendices are not convincing. The data being modeled is a processed signal (∆F/F) with smoothing and baseline correction and this does not seem to have been considered in the argument. Furthermore, the photometry readout is also a convolution of the actual concentration changes over time, influenced by the on-off kinetics of the sensor, which makes the interpretation of timing effects of photobleaching less obvious than presented here and more complex than the dyes considered in the cited reference used as a foundation for this line of reasoning.

      We appreciate the nuance of this point, and we have made considerable efforts in the Results and Discussion sections to caution that alternative hypotheses (e.g., photobleaching) cannot be definitively ruled out. In response to your criticism, we have consulted with more experts in the field regarding the potential for bleaching in this data, and it is not clear to us why photobleaching would be visible in one time-window of a trial, but not at another (less than a second away), despite high ∆F/F magnitudes in both time-windows. We do wish to point out that the Jeong et al. (2022) authors were also concerned about photobleaching as a possible explanation. At their request, we analyzed data from additional experiments, collected from the same animals. In most cases, we did not observe signal patterns that seemed to indicate photobleaching. Given the additional scrutiny, we do not think that photobleaching is more likely to invalidate results in this particular set of experiments than it would be in any other photometry experiment. While the role of photobleaching may be more complicated with this sensor than others in the references, that citation was included primarily as a way of acknowledging that it is possible that non-linearities in photobleaching could occur. Regardless, your point is well taken and we have qualified our description of these analyses to express that photobleaching cannot be ruled out.

      Within this discussion of photobleaching, the characterization of the background reward experiments used in part to consider photobleaching (appendix 7.3.2) is incorrect. In this experiment (Jeong et al., 2022), background rewards were only delivered in the inter-trial-interval (i.e. not between the CS+ and predicted reward as stated in the text). Both in the authors’ description and in the data, there is a 6s before cue onset where rewards are not delivered and while not described in the text, the data suggests there is a period after a predicted reward when background rewards are not delivered. This complicates the comparison of this data to the random reward experiment.

      Thank you for pointing this out! We removed the parenthetical on page 18 of the appendix that incorrectly stated that rewards can occur between the CS+ and the predicted reward.

      The discussion of the lack of evidence for backpropagation, taken as evidence for ANCCR over RPE, is also weak.

      Our point was initially included to acknowledge that, although our method yields results that conflict with the conclusions described by Jeong et al., 2022 on data from some experiments, on other experiments our method supports their results. Again, we believe that a critical part of re-analyzing shared datasets is acknowledging both areas where new analyses support the original results, as well as those where they conflict with them. We agree with the reviewer that qualifying our results so as not to emphasize support for/against RPE/ANCCR will strengthen our paper, and we have made those changes. We have qualified the conclusions of our analysis to emphasize they are a demonstration of how FLMM can be used to answer a certain style of question with hypothesis testing (how signal dynamics change across sessions), as opposed to providing evidence for/against the backpropagation hypothesis.

      A more useful exercise than comparing FLMM to the methods and data of Jeong et al., 2022, would be to compare against the approach of Amo et al., 2022, which identifies backpropagation (data publicly available: DOI: 10.5061/dryad.hhmgqnkjw). The replication of a positive result would be more convincing of the sensitivity of the methodology than the replication of a negative result, which could be a result of many factors in the experimental design. Given that the Amo et al. analysis relies on identifying systematic changes in the timing of a signal over time, this would be particularly useful in understanding if the smoothing steps in FLMM obscure such changes.

      Thank you for this suggestion. Your thoughtful review has convinced us that focusing on our statistical contribution will strengthen the paper, and we made changes to further emphasize that we are not seeking to adjudicate between RPE/ANCCR. Given the length of the manuscript as it stands, we could only include a subset of the analyses conducted on Jeong et al., 2022, and had to relegate the results from the Coddington et al., data to an appendix. Realistically, it would be hard for us to justify including analyses from a third dataset, only to have to relegate them to an appendix. We did include numerous examples in our manuscript where we already replicated positive results, in a way that we believe demonstrates the sensitivity of the methodology. We have also been working with many groups at NIH and elsewhere using our approach, in experiments targeting different scientific questions. In fact, one paper that extensively applies our method, and compares the results with those yielded by standard analysis of AUCs, is already published (Beas et al., 2024). Finally, in our analysis guide we describe additional analyses, not included in the manuscript, that replicate positive results. Hence there are numerous demonstrations of FLMM’s performance in less controversial settings. We take your point that our description of the data supporting one theory or the other should be qualified, and we have corrected that. Specifically for your suggestion of Amo et al. 2022, we have not had the opportunity to personally reanalyze their data, but we are already in contact with other groups who have conducted preliminary analyses of their data with FLMM. We are delighted to see this, in light of your comments and our decision to restrict the scope of our paper. We will help them and other groups working on this question to the extent we can.

      Recommendations for the Authors:

      Reviewer #2:

      First, I would like to commend the authors for the clarity of the paper, and for creating an open-source package that will help researchers more easily adopt this type of analysis.

      Thank you for the positive feedback!

      I would suggest the authors consider adding to the manuscript, either some evidence or some intuition on how feasible would be to use FLMM for very complex model specifications, in terms of computational cost and model convergence.

      Thank you for this suggestion. As we described above in response to Reviewer #2’s Public Reviews, we have added in a demonstration of the scalability of the method. Since our initial manuscript submission, we have further increased the package’s speed (e.g., through further parallelization). We are releasing the updated version of our package on CRAN.

      From my understanding, this package might potentially be useful not just for photometry data but also for two-photon recordings for example. If so, I would also suggest the authors add to the discussion this potential use.

      This is a great point. Our updated manuscript Discussion includes the following:

      “The FLMM framework may also be applicable to techniques like electrophysiology and calcium imaging. For example, our package can fit functional generalized LMMs with a count distribution (e.g., Poisson). Additionally, our method can be extended to model time-varying covariates. This would enable one to estimate how the level of association between signals, simultaneously recorded from different brain regions, fluctuates across trial time-points. This would also enable modeling of trials that differ in length due to, for example, variable behavioral response times (e.g., latency-topress).”

      Reviewer #3:

      The authors should define ’function’ in context, as well as provide greater detail of the alternate tests that FLMM is compared to in Figure 7.

      We include a description of the alternate tests in Appendix Section 5.2. We have updated the Methods Section (Section 4) to introduce the reader to how ‘functions’ are conceptualized and modeled in the functional data analysis literature. Specifically, we added the following text:

      “FLMM models each trial’s signal as a function that varies smoothly across trial time-points (i.e., along the “functional domain”). It is thus a type of non-linear modeling technique over the functional domain, since we do not assume a linear model (straight line). FLMM and other functional data analysis methods model data as functions, when there is a natural ordering (e.g., time-series data are ordered by time, imaging data are ordered by x-y coordinates), and are assumed to vary smoothly along the functional domain (e.g., one assumes values of a photometry signal at close time-points in a trial have similar values). Functional data analysis approaches exploit this smoothness and natural ordering to capture more information during estimation and inference.”

      Given the novelty of estimating joint CIs, the authors should be clearer about how this should be reported and how this differs from pointwise CIs (and how this has been done in the past).

      We appreciate your pointing this out, as the distinction is nuanced. Our manuscript includes a description of how joint CIs enable one to interpret effects as statistically significant for time-intervals as opposed to individual timepoints. Unlike joint CIs, assessing significance with pointwise CIs suffers from multiple-comparisons problems. As a result of your suggestion, we have included a short discussion of this to our analysis guide (Part 1), entitled “Pointwise or Joint 95% Confidence Intervals.” The Methods section of our manuscript also includes the following:

      “The construction of joint CIs in the context of functional data analysis is an important research question; see Cui et al. (2021) and references therein. Each point at which the pointwise 95% CI does not contain 0 indicates that the coefficient is statistically significantly different from 0 at that point. Compared with pointwise CIs, joint CIs takes into account the autocorrelation of signal values across trial time-points (the functional domain). Therefore, instead of interpreting results at a specific timepoint, joint CIs enable joint interpretations at multiple locations along the functional domain. This aligns with interpreting covariate effects on the photometry signals across time-intervals (e.g., a cue period) as opposed to at a single trial time-point. Previous methodological work has provided functional mixed model implementations for either joint 95% CIs for simple random-effects models (Cui et al., 2021), or pointwise 95% CIs for nested models (Scheipl et al., 2016), but to our knowledge, do not provide explicit formulas or software for computing joint 95% CIs in the presence of general random-effects specifications.”

      The authors identify that many photometry studies are complex nested longitudinal designs, using the cohort of 8 animals used in five task designs of Jeong et al. 2022 as an example. The authors miss the opportunity to illustrate how FLMM might be useful in identifying the effects of subject characteristics (e.g. sex, CS+ cue identity).

      This is a fantastic point and we have added the following into the Discussion:

      “...[S]ignal heterogeneity due to subject characteristics (e.g., sex, CS+ cue identity) could be incorporated into a model through inclusion of animal-specific random effects.”

      In discussing the delay-length change experiment, it would be more accurate to say that proposed versions of RPE and ANCCR do not predict the specific change.

      Good point. We have made this change.

      Minor corrections:

      Panels are mislabeled in Figure 5.

      Thank you. We have corrected this.

      The Crowder (2009) reference is incorrect, being a review of the book with the book presumably being the correct citation.

      Good catch, thank you! Corrected.

      In Section 5 (first appendix), the authors could include the alternate spelling ’fibre photometry’ to capture any citations that use British English spelling.

      This is a great suggestion, but we did not have time to recreate these figures before re-submission.

      Section 7.4 is almost all quotation, though unevenly using the block quotation formatting. It is unclear why such a large quotation is included.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have removed this Appendix section (formerly Section 7.4) as the relevant text was already included in the Methods section.

      References

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This important study combines psychophysics, fMRI, and TMS to reveal a causal role of FEF in generating an attention-induced ocular dominance shift, with potential relevance for clinical applications. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, but the theoretical and mechanistic interpretation of results and experimental approaches need to be strengthened. The work will be of broad interest to perceptual and cognitive neuroscience.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Based on a "dichoptic-background-movie" paradigm that modulates ocular dominance, the present study combines fMRI and TMS to examine the role of the frontoparietal attentional network in ocular dominance shifts. The authors claimed a causal role of FEF in generating the attention-induced ocular dominance shift.

      Strengths:

      A combination of fMRI, TMS, and "dichoptic-background-movie" paradigm techniques is used to reveal the causal role of the frontoparietal attentional network in ocular dominance shifts. The conclusions of this paper are mostly well supported by data.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The relationship between eye dominance, eye-based attention shift, and cortical functions remains unclear and merits further delineation. The rationale of the experimental design related to the hemispheric asymmetry in the FEF and other regions should be clarified.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s comments! We have further clarified the relationship between eye dominance shift, eye-based attention, and cortical functions in the Introduction and Discussion. In the Introduction, we introduce the modulating effects of eye-based attention on eye dominance. On one hand, eye-based attention can enhance eye dominance of the attended eye in real time (see page 3 first paragraph or below):

      ”For instance, presenting top-down attentional cues to one eye can intensify the competition strength of input signals in the attended eye during binocular rivalry (Choe & Kim, 2022; Zhang et al., 2012) and shift the eye balance towards the attended eye (Wong et al., 2021).”

      On the other hand, prolonged eye-based attention can induce a shift of eye dominance to the unattended eye (see page 3 second paragraph or below):

      “In Song et al. (2023)’s “dichoptic-backward-movie” adaptation paradigm (see Figure 1B), participants are presented with regular movie images in one eye (i.e., attended eye) while the other eye (i.e., unattended eye) received the backward movie images of the same episode. They were also instructed to try their best to follow the logic of the regular movie and ignore the superimposed backward movie. Therefore, the goal-directed eye-based attention was predominantly focused on the attended eye. Song et al. (2023) found that the predominance of the unattended eye in binocular rivalry increased after one hour of adaptation to the “dichoptic-backward-movie”, indicating a shift of perceptual ocular dominance towards the unattended eye. Since the overall energy of visual input from the two eyes was balanced throughout the adaptation period, the change of ocular dominance after adaptation is thought to result from unbalanced eye-based attention rather than unbalanced input energy as in typical short-term monocular deprivation (Bai et al., 2017; Lunghi et al., 2011; Zhou et al., 2014).”

      Moreover, we discussed how FEF regulates attention-induced ocular dominance shift (see page 21 second paragraph to page 23 first paragraph or below, which also respond to this reviewer’s comment of Weakness #2):

      “Then how does FEF regulate the attention-induced ocular dominance shift? Our previous work has found that the aftereffect (for simplicity, hereafter we use aftereffect to denote the attention-induced ocular dominance shift) can be produced only when the adapting stimuli involve adequate interocular competition, and is measurable only when the testing stimuli are not binocularly fused (Song et al., 2023). Given the indispensability of interocular competition, we explained those findings in the framework of the ocular-opponency-neuron model of binocular rivalry (Said & Heeger, 2013). The model suggests that there are some opponency neurons which receive excitatory inputs from monocular neurons for one eye and inhibitory inputs from monocular neurons for the other eye (e.g. AE-UAE opponency neurons receive excitatory inputs from the attended eye (AE) and inhibitory inputs from the unattended eye (UAE)). Then a difference signal is computed so that the opponency neurons fire if the excitatory inputs surpass the inhibitory inputs. Upon activation, the opponency neurons will in turn suppress the monocular neurons which send inhibitory signals to them.

      Based on this model, we proposed an ocular-opponency-neuron adaptation account to explain the aftereffect, and pointed out that the attentional system likely modulated the AE-UAE ocular opponency neurons (Song et al., 2023). So why would FEF modulate the AE-UAE opponency neurons? The reason may be two fold. Firstly, understanding the logic during the dichoptic-backward-movie viewing may require filtering out the distracting information (from the unattended eye) and sustaining attention (to the attended eye), which is exactly the role of FEF (Esterman et al., 2015; Lega et al., 2019).

      Secondly, due to the special characteristics of binocular vision system, filtering the distracting input from the unattended eye may have to rely on the interocular suppression mechanism. According to the ocular-opponency-neuron model, this is achieved by the firing of the AE-UAE opponency neurons that send inhibitory signals to the UAE monocular neurons.

      As mentioned previously, the firing of the AE-UAE opponency neurons requires stronger activity for the AE monocular neurons than for the UAE monocular neurons. This is confirmed by the results shown in Figure 8 of Song et al. (2023) that monocular response for the attended eye during the entire adaptation phase was slightly stronger than that for the unattended eye. Accordingly, during adaptation the AE-UAE opponency neurons were able to activate for a longer period thus adapted to a larger extent than the UAE-AE opponency neurons. This would cause the monocular neurons for the unattended eye to receive less inhibition from the AE-UAE opponency neurons in the post-test as compared with the pre-test, leading to a shift of ocular dominance towards the unattended eye. In this vein, the magnitude of this aftereffect should be proportional to the extent of adaptation of the AE-UAE relative to UAE-AE opponency neurons. Attentional enhancement on the AE-UAE opponency neurons is believed to strengthen this aftereffect, as it has been found that attention can enhance adaptation (Dong et al., 2016; Rezec et al., 2004). Inhibition of FEF likely led such attentional modulation to be much less effective. Consequently, the AE-UAE opponency neurons might not have the chance to adapt to a sufficiently larger extent than the UAE-AE opponency neurons, leading to a statistically non-detectable aftereffect in Experiment 2. Therefore, the results of Experiments 2-4 in the present study suggest that within the context of the ocular-opponency-neuron adaptation account, FEF might be the core area to fulfill the attentional modulations on the AE-UAE opponency neurons.”

      We used the experimental design with hemispheric asymmetry in the FEF and other regions for two reasons. First, many studies have shown that the dorsal attentional network has a functional right-hemisphere dominance (Duecker et al., 2013; Mayrhofer et al., 2019; Sack, 2010). This was also indicated by the results of Experiment 1 (Figure 3). Second, we found that a recent research applying TMS to FEF and IPS stimulated only the right hemisphere (Gallotto et al., 2022). Therefore, we selected the right FEF and right IPS as the target regions for cTBS. In the Methods section of Experiment 2, we have elucidated the reasons for the selection of cTBS target regions (see page 35, first paragraph or below):

      “Given that the dorsal attentional network primarily consists of the FEF and the IPS (Corbetta & Shulman, 2002; Mayrhofer et al., 2019), with a functional right-hemisphere dominance (Duecker et al., 2013; Mayrhofer et al., 2019; Sack, 2010), we selected the right FEF and right IPS from the four clusters identified in Experiment 1 as the target regions for cTBS (Gallotto et al., 2022).”

      (2) Theoretically, how the eye-related functions in this area could be achieved, and how it interacts with the ocular representation in V1 warrant further clarification.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s comment! In the revised manuscript, we have discussed how FEF regulates attention-induced ocular dominance shift (see page 21 second paragraph to page 23 first paragraph or the quoted paragraphs under this reviewer’s first Public comment).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      Song et al investigate the role of the frontal eye field (FEF) and the intraparietal sulcus (IPS) in mediating the shift in ocular dominance (OD) observed after a period of dichoptic stimulation during which attention is selectively directed to one eye. This manipulation has been previously found to transiently shift OD in favor of the unattended eye, similar to the effect of short-term monocular deprivation. To this aim, the authors combine psychophysics, fMRI, and transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS). In the first experiment, the authors determine the regions of interest (ROIs) based on the responses recorded by fMRI during either dichoptic or binocular stimulation, showing selective recruitment of the right FEF and IPS during the dichoptic condition, in line with the involvement of eye-based attention. In a second experiment, the authors investigate the causal role of these two ROIs in mediating the OD shift observed after a period of dichoptic stimulation by selectively inhibiting with TMS (using continuous theta burst stimulation, cTBS), before the adaptation period (50 min exposure to dichoptic stimulation). They show that, when cTBS is delivered on the FEF, but not the IPS or the vertex, the shift in OD induced by dichoptic stimulation is reduced, indicating a causal involvement of the FEF in mediating this form of short-term plasticity. A third control experiment rules out the possibility that TMS interferes with the OD task (binocular rivalry), rather than with the plasticity mechanisms. From this evidence, the authors conclude that the FEF is one of the areas mediating the OD shift induced by eye-selective attention.

      Strengths

      (1) The experimental paradigm is sound and the authors have thoroughly investigated the neural correlates of an interesting form of short-term visual plasticity combining different techniques in an intelligent way.

      (2) The results are solid and the appropriate controls have been performed to exclude potential confounds.

      (3) The results are very interesting, providing new evidence both about the neural correlates of eye-based attention and the involvement of extra-striate areas in mediating short-term OD plasticity in humans, with potential relevance for clinical applications (especially in the field of amblyopia).

      Weaknesses

      (1) Ethics: more details about the ethics need to be included in the manuscript. It is only mentioned for experiment 1 that participants "provided informed consent in accordance with the Declaration of Helsinki. This study was approved by the Institutional Review Board of the Institute of Psychology, Chinese Academy of Sciences". (Which version of the Declaration of Helsinki? The latest version requires the pre-registration of the study. The code of the approved protocol together with the code and date of the approval should be provided.) There is no mention of informed consent procedures or ethics approval for the TMS experiments. This is a huge concern, especially for brain stimulation experiments!

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s comment! In the revised manuscript, we have provided the code of the approved protocol and date of the approval (see page 25 second paragraph or below):

      “This study was approved (H21058, 11/01/2021) by the Institutional Review Board of the Institute of Psychology, Chinese Academy of Sciences.”

      Indeed, ethics approval and informed consent were obtained for each experiment. To avoid duplication in the text, we only presented the ethics instructions in the Methods section of Experiment 1. We have now clarified in that section that all the experiments in this study were approved by the IRB in our Institute.

      (2) Statistics: the methods section should include a sub-section describing in detail all the statistical analyses performed for the study. Moreover, in the results section, statistical details should be added to support the fMRI results. In the current version of the manuscript, the claims are not supported by statistical evidence.

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion! In the Methods section of revised manuscript, we have added a section to describe the detailed statistical analyses for each experiment (see page 37 last paragraph for Experiment 2 and page 38 last paragraph for Experiment 3 or below):

      “Statistical analyses were performed using MATLAB. A 3 (stimulation site: Vertex, FEF, IPS) × 2 (test phase: pre-test and post-test) repeated measures ANOVA was used to investigate the effect of cTBS delivery on ocular dominance shift. Moreover, for the blob detection test, the target detection rate of each experimental condition was calculated by dividing the summed number of detected blob targets by the total number of blob targets. Then, a 2 (eye: attended eye, unattended eye) × 3 (stimulation site: Vertex, FEF, IPS) repeated measures ANOVA on the detection performance was performed. Post-hoc tests were conducted using paired t-tests (2-tailed significance level at α = 0.05), and the resulting p-values were corrected for multiple comparisons using the false discovery rate (FDR) method (Benjamini & Hochberg, 1995).”

      “In addition to the data analysis in Experiment 2, we complemented the standard inferential approach with the Bayes factor (van den Bergh et al., 2023; van Doorn et al., 2021; Wagenmakers et al., 2018), which allows quantifying the relative evidence that the data provide for the alternative (H1) or null hypothesis (H0). We conducted the Bayesian repeated measures ANOVA using JASP with default priors and computed inclusion Bayes factors (BFincl) which suggest the evidence for the inclusion of a particular effect calculated across matched models. A BF greater than 1 provides support for the alternative hypothesis. Specifically, a BF between 1 and 3 indicates weak evidence, a BF between 3 and 10 indicates moderate evidence, and a BF greater than 10 indicates strong evidence (van Doorn et al., 2021). In contrast, a BF below 1 provides evidence in favor of the null hypothesis.”

      Furthermore, in the Results section of revised manuscript, we have added the statistical details to support the fMRI results (see page 9 last paragraph or below):

      “To seek these brain regions, we used the AFNI program “3dttest++” to access the difference of ‘dichoptic-binocular’ contrast between the experimental and control runs. The AFNI program “ClustSim” was then applied for multiple comparison correction, yielding a minimum significant cluster size of 21 voxels (voxel wise p = .001; cluster threshold α = 0.05). We found 4 clusters showing stronger responses to the dichoptic movies than to the binocular movies especially in the experimental runs.”

      (3) Interpretation of the results: the TMS results are very interesting and convincing regarding the involvement of the FEF in the build-up of the OD shift induced by dichoptic stimulation, however, I am not sure that the authors can claim that this effect is related to eye-based attention, as cTBS has no effect on the blob detection task during dichoptic stimulation. If the FEF were causally involved in eye-based attention, one would expect a change in performance in this task during dichoptic stimulation, perhaps a similar performance for the unattended and attended eye. The authors speculate that the sound could have an additional role in driving eye-based attention, which might explain the lack of effect for the blob discrimination task, however, this hypothesis has not been tested.

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s comment! Following this reviewer’s insightful suggestion, we have conducted a new experiment to examine the effect of sound on blob detection task (see Experiment 4 in the revised manuscript). The procedure was similar to that of Experiment 2 except that the sound was no longer presented during the dichoptic-backward-movie adaptation. The results showed that the interocular difference of blob detection rate after sound elimination remained unaffected by the cTBS, which disagreed with our explanation in the previous version of manuscript. Based on the new data, we now question the validity to use the blob detection rate to precisely quantify eye-based attention, and have tried to explain why the blob detection results do not contradict with our account for the function role of FEF in modulating the aftereffect in the Discussion of the revised manuscript (see page 23 second paragraph to page 24 first paragraph or below):

      “An unresolved issue is why inhibiting the cortical function of FEF did not impair the performance of blob detection task. One potential explanation is that the synchronized audio in Experiment 2 might help increase the length of time that the regular movie dominated awareness. However, the results of Experiment 4 did not support this explanation, in which the performance of blob detection survived from the inhibition of FEF even when silent movies were presented. Although this issue remains to be explored in future work, it does not contradict with our notion of FEF modulating AE-UAE opponency neurons. It should be noted that our notion merely states that FEF is the core area for attentional modulations on activities of AE-UAE opponency neurons. No other role of FEF during the adaptation is assumed here (e.g. boosting monocular responses or increasing conscious level of stimuli in the attended eye). In contrast, according to the most original definition, the blob detection performance serves as an estimation of visibility (or consciousness level) of the stimuli input from each eye, despite the initial goal of adopting this task is to precisely quantify eye-based attention (which might be impractical). Thus, according to our notion, inhibition of FEF does not necessarily lead to deteriorate performance of blob detection. Furthermore, our findings consistently indicated that the visibility of stimuli in the attended eye was markedly superior to that of stimuli in the unattended eye, yet the discrepancy in the SSVEP monocular responses between the two eyes was minimal though it had reached statistical significance (Song et al., 2023). Therefore, blob detection performance in our work may only faithfully reflect the conscious level in each monocular pathway, but it is probably not an appropriate index tightly associated with the attentional modulations on monocular responses in early visual areas. Indeed, previous work has argued that attention but not awareness modulates neural activities in V1 during interocular competition (Watanabe et al., 2011), but see (Yuval-Greenberg & Heeger, 2013). We have noticed and discussed the counterintuitive results of blob detection performance in our previous work (Song et al., 2023). Here, with the new counterintuitive finding that inhibition of FEF did not impair the performance of blob detection, we suspect that blob detection performance in the “dichoptic-backward-movie” adaptation paradigm may not be an ideal index that can be used to accurately quantify eye-based attention.

      (4) Writing: in general, the manuscript is well written, but clarity should be improved in certain sections.

      (a) fMRI results: the first sentence is difficult to understand at first read, but it is crucial to understand the results, please reformulate and clarify.

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion! In the revised manuscript, we have reformulated this sentence (see page 9 last paragraph or below):

      “It was only in the dichoptic condition of experimental runs that participants had to selectively pay more attention to one eye (i.e., eye-based attention). Therefore, we speculate that if certain brain regions exhibit greater activities in the dichoptic condition as compared to the binocular condition in the experimental runs but not in the control runs, the activation of these brain regions could be attributable to eye-based attention.”

      (b) Experiment 3: the rationale for experiment one should be straightforward, without a long premise explaining why it would not be necessary.

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion! In the revised manuscript, we have streamlined the lengthy premise explaining to make the rationale of Experiment 3 more straightforward (see page 15 last two paragraphs or below):

      “The results of Experiment 2 support the notion that eye-based attention was the cause for attention-induced ocular dominance plasticity. However, an alternative account is that the significant two-way interaction between test phase and stimulation site did not stem from any persistent malfunction of FEF in modulating ocular dominance, but rather it was due to some abnormality of binocular rivalry measures in the post-test that occurred after stimulation at the FEF only (and not at the other two brain sites). For instance, stimulation at the FEF might simply reduce the ODI measured in the binocular rivalry post-test.

      Therefore, we conducted Experiment 3 to examine how suppression of the three target sites would impact binocular rivalry performance, in case that any unknown confounding factors, which were unrelated to adaptation but related to binocular rivalry measures, contributed to the results.”

      (c) Discussion: the language is a bit familiar here and there, a more straightforward style should be preferred (one example: p.19 second paragraph).

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion! We have carefully revised the language in the discussion. The discussion following the example paragraph has been largely rewritten.

      (5) Minor: the authors might consider using the term "participant" or "observer" instead of "subject" when referring to the volunteers who participated in the study.

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion! In the revised manuscript, we have replaced the term “subject” with “participant”.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study studied the neural mechanisms underlying the shift of ocular dominance induced by "dichoptic-backward-movie" adaptation. The study is self-consistent.

      Strengths:

      The experimental design is solid and progressive (relationship among three studies), and all of the raised research questions were well answered.

      The logic behind the neural mechanisms is solid.

      The findings regarding the cTMS (especially the position/site can be useful for future medical implications).

      Weaknesses:

      Why does the "dichoptic-backward-movie" adaptation matter? This part is severely missing. This kind of adaptation is neither intuitive like the classical (Gbison) visual adaptation, nor practical as adaptation as a research paradigm as well as the fundamental neural mechanism. If this part is not clearly stated and discussed, this study is just self-consistent in terms of its own research question. There are tons of "cool" phenomena in which the neural mechanisms are apparent as "FEF controls vision-attention" but never tested using TMS & fMRI, but we all know that this kind of research is just of incremental implications.

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s comment! We designed the "dichoptic-backward-movie" adaptation to study the perceptual consequence and mechanisms of sustained attention to a monocular pathway. Since the overall visual input to both eyes during adaptation were identical, any effect (i.e. the change of ocular dominance in our study) after adaptation can be easily ascribed to unbalanced eye-based attention between the two eyes rather than unbalanced input energy across the eyes. In typical short-term monocular deprivation, input signal from one eye is blocked. Accordingly, attention is undoubtedly distributed to the non-deprived eye. The fact that in a short-term monocular deprivation paradigm the deprived eye is also the unattended eye prevents researchers from ascertaining whether unbalanced eye-based attentional allocation contributes to the shift of ocular dominance just like unbalanced visual input across the two eyes. That is why the “dichoptic-backward-movie” adaptation was adopted in the present study. This new paradigm balances the input energy across the eyes but leaves attention unbalanced across the eyes. In the revised manuscript, we have added the description of the “dichoptic-backward-movie” adaptation (see page 3 last paragraph and page 4 first paragraph or below). Hope this complementary information improves the clarity.

      “In Song et al. (2023)’s “dichoptic-backward-movie” adaptation paradigm (see Figure 1B), participants are presented with regular movie images in one eye (i.e., attended eye) while the other eye (i.e., unattended eye) received the backward movie images of the same episode. They were also instructed to try their best to follow the logic of the regular movie and ignore the superimposed backward movie. Therefore, the goal-directed eye-based attention was predominantly focused on the attended eye. Song et al. (2023) found that the predominance of the unattended eye in binocular rivalry increased after one hour of adaptation to the “dichoptic-backward-movie”, indicating a shift of perceptual ocular dominance towards the unattended eye. Since the overall energy of visual input from the two eyes was balanced throughout the adaptation period, the change of ocular dominance after adaptation is thought to result from unbalanced eye-based attention rather than unbalanced input energy as in typical short-term monocular deprivation (Bai et al., 2017; Lunghi et al., 2011; Zhou et al., 2014).” In short-term monocular deprivation, input signal from one eye is blocked. Accordingly, attention is biased towards the non-deprived eye. However, it is difficult to tease apart the potential contribution of unbalanced eye-based attention from the consequence of the unbalanced input energy, as the deprived eye is also the unattended eye. Therefore, the advantage of the “dichoptic-backward-movie” adaptation paradigm is to balance the input energy across the eyes but leave attention unbalanced across the eyes.

      Our previous work (Song et al., 2023) has shown that eye-based attention plays a role in the formation of ocular dominance shift following adaptation to dichoptic backward movie. However, because the “dichoptic-backward-movie” adaptation paradigm is new, to our knowledge, no literature has ever discovered the brain areas that are responsible for eye-based attention. Our fMRI experiment for the first time resolves this issue, which, we believe, is one of the novelties of the present study. Attention is a pretty general definition of our ability to select limited information for preferential or privileged processing, yet it includes numerous aspects (e.g. spatial attention for spatial locations, feature-based attention for visual features, object-based attention for objects, social attention for social cues, and eye-based attention for monocular pathways etc). Are we 100% sure that the same brain network always underlies every aspect of attention including eye-based attention? No test, no answer. Maybe the answer is Yes, but we are not aware of any evidence for that from literature. It is not unlikely that attention is like an elephant while researchers are like blind people touching the elephant from different angles. Even if all previous researchers have touched the side of the elephant and state that an elephant is no different from a wall, as long as one researcher grabs the elephant’s tail, the “wall” knowledge will be falsified. From this perspective of the essence of science (falsifiable), we have the confidence to say that our fMRI experiment on eye-based attention is novel, because to our knowledge our experiment is the first one to explore the issue. On the basis of the fMRI experiment (otherwise we would have no idea on which precise brain site to apply the cTBS), we could successfully complete the subsequent TMS experiments.

      Of course, if the reviewer can kindly point out any previous neuroimaging work we missed that has already disclosed the neural mechanisms underlying human’s eye-based attention, we would truly appreciate the reviewer very much. But even so, we would like to emphasize that the purpose of the current study was actually not to use TMS & fMRI to confirm that “FEF controls visual attention”. As we mentioned in the Abstract and expanded the introduction in the last two paragraphs of Introduction, the goal of the TMS experiments is to examine the causal role of eye-based attention in producing the aftereffect of “dichoptic-backward-movie” adaptation. This research question is also new, thus we do not think the TMS experiments are incremental, either. Our findings provided direct causal evidence for the effect of FEF on modulating ocular dominance through eye-based attention. Please see the last two sentences in the first paragraph on page 20 in the revised manuscript or below,

      “Interestingly, in our Experiment 2 this aftereffect was significantly attenuated after we temporarily inhibited the cortical function of FEF via cTBS. This finding indicates the crucial role of FEF in the formation of attention-induced ocular dominance shift.”

      as well as the last sentence of the Abstract,

      “…and in this network, FEF plays a crucial causal role in generating the attention-induced ocular dominance shift.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The hemispheric asymmetry in the eye-based attention-related cortex should be further examined and discussed. For example, IPS in both hemispheres was identified in the fMRI experiment. It is not clear why only the right IPS was stimulated in the TMS experiment.

      Response: Thanks for the comment. We have elucidated the reasons for the experimental design with hemispheric asymmetry in FEF and IPS. Please see our response to the Weakness #1 raised by Reviewer #1 in the Public Review section.

      (2) It is known that the frontoparietal cortex plays a role in the contralateral shift of attentional allocation. Meanwhile, the latest stage of ocular-specific representation is V1. The authors should discuss how the eye-related function can be achieved in FEF.

      Response: Thanks for the comment. we have discussed how FEF regulates attention-induced ocular dominance shift (see page 21 second paragraph to page 23 first paragraph in the revised manuscript, and our response to the Weakness #2 raised by Reviewer #1 in the Public Review section).

      (3) To further validate the role of FEF in eye-related attention shifts, the authors may consider using the traditional monocular deprivation paradigm with fMRI and TMS. It would be valuable to compare the neural mechanisms related to the classical monocular deprivation paradigm with the current findings.

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion! That is indeed an interesting research topic that we are currently exploring. The current study investigated the attention-induced ocular dominance shift with the “dichoptic-backward-movie-adaptation” paradigm. This paradigm is substantially different from traditional short-term monocular deprivation. In our Neuroscience Bulletin paper (Song et al. 2023), we discuss the reason as follows.

      “An alternative account of our results is the homeostatic plasticity mechanism. The function of this mechanism is to stabilize neuronal activity and prevent the neuronal system from becoming hyperactive or hypoactive. For this goal, the mechanism moves the neuronal system back toward its baseline after a perturbation [51, 52]. In our case, the aftereffect can be explained such that the visual system boosts the signals from the unattended eye to maintain the balance of the network’s excitability. However, this account cannot easily explain why the change of neural ocular dominance led by prolonged eye-based attention was observed here using the binocular rivalry testing stimuli, but absent in the previous research using the binocularly fused stimuli [11]. In contrast, a recent SSVEP study also using the binocularly fused stimuli has successfully revealed a shift of neural ocular dominance after two hours of monocular deprivation [31], which is in line with the homeostatic plasticity account. Therefore, the mechanisms underlying the “dichoptic-backward-movie” adaptation and monocular deprivation are probably not fully overlapped with each other; and the binocular rivalry mechanism described in the ocular-opponency-neuron model seems to be more preferable than the homeostatic plasticity mechanism in accounting for the present findings.”

      Therefore, before asking whether FEF plays a role in the attention-induced ocular dominance shift in a traditional monocular deprivation paradigm, one should probably first examine whether attention also plays a role in traditional monocular deprivation, and whether the ocular-opponency-neuron adaptation account can also be used to explain the traditional monocular deprivation effect. Our newly accepted paper “Negligible contribution of adaptation of ocular opponency neurons to the effect of short-term monocular deprivation” (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2023.1282113/full) gives a generally negative answer to the second question. And as to the first question, we have one manuscript under review and another ongoing study. In other words, to get a satisfactory answer to this particular comment of this reviewer, we need to first obtain clear answers to the two above questions. We think this is far beyond the scope of one single manuscript.

      (4) The authors only presented regular movies to the dominant eye to maximize the ocular dominance shift. This critical information of design should be clarified, not only in the method section.

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion! In the Results section of Experiment 2, we have added a description of this critical information of design (see page 11 last paragraph to page 12 first paragraph or below):

      “Then, participants adapted to the “dichoptic-backward-movie” in which regular movie images were presented to the dominant eye to maximize the effect of eye dominance shift (Song et al., 2023). Meanwhile they were asked to detect some infrequent blob targets presented on the movie images in one eye at the same time.”

      (5) The frame rate of the movie is 30 fps, which is much lower than a typical 60 fps visual presentation, does this have an effect on the adaptation outcome?

      Response: To our best of knowledge, there is no evidence that the frame rate of the movie influences the aftereffect of attention-induced ocular dominance shift. In our previous research, the frame rate of the movie during adaptation was 25 fps, which still produced a stable adaptation aftereffect (Song et al., 2023). And the frame rate of the movie was 30 fps in our monocular deprivation work (Lyu et al., 2020), which showed a similar monocular deprivation effect we previously observed in an altered reality study (Bai et al., 2017). The frame rate of the altered-reality video in Bai et al.’s (2017) work was 60 fps. All these clues suggest that the frame rate does not have an effect on the adaptation outcome.

      (6) Figure 5: The ODSE derived from ODI in Experiment 3 should also be illustrated, for a better comparison with results from Experiment 2.

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion! In the revised manuscript, we have added the results of ODSE in Experiment 3 to Figure 5 (see page 15 or below):

      Author response image 1.

      Figure 5. The results of (A) the ocular dominance index (ODI), (B) the ocular dominance shift effects (ODSE) in Experiment 2, (C) the ODI and (D) the ODSE in Experiment 3. The bars show the grand average data for each condition. The individual data are plotted with gray lines or dots. The dashed gray line represents the absolute balance point for the two eyes (ODI = 0.5). Error bars indicate standard errors of means. * p < .05; ** p < .01; n.s. p > .05.

      (7) Spelling issues: "i.e." → "i.e.,"

      Response: Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion! In the revised manuscript, we have changed “i.e.” to “i.e.,”.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Linked to weakness 3: Ideally, a control experiment with cTBS and dichoptic stimulation without sound but with the blob discrimination task should be performed to be able to make important claims about the neural mechanisms involved in eye-based attention.

      Response: Thanks for the comment. We have performed a new experiment as the reviewer suggested. Please see our response to the Weakness #3 raised by Reviewer #2 in the Public Review section.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The neural mechanisms are so apparent. We all know the FEF\IPS\SC matter in vision and attention and gaze. This is not groundbreaking.

      Response: As we addressed in our response to Reviewer #3’s public comment, the current study aimed at investigating the causal mechanism for eye-based attentional modulation of ocular dominance plasticity rather than simply the role of FEF\IPS\SC in visual attention. Moreover, eye-based attention is a less investigated aspect of visual attention. The neural mechanism underlying eye-based attention is still largely unknown, and seeking the brain areas for controlling eye-based attention is the necessary preparation work for applying the cTBS. We have responded in detail to Reviewer #3’s public comment why we think both the fMRI and TMS experiments are novel to the field, which we will not reiterate it here to avoid redundancy.

      (2) Why does the "dichoptic-backward-movie" adaptation matter? Is playing a backward movie to one eye realistic? Does that follow the efficient coding? Is that a mere consequence of information theory?

      Response: Thanks for the comments. We have added the description of the “dichoptic-backward-movie” adaptation paradigm in the revised manuscript (see page 3 last paragraph and page 4 first paragraph or our response to this reviewer’s Public comment).

      Is it realistic to play backward movie to one eye? We feel this question is somehow ambiguous to us. If the reviewer means the technical operability for such stimulus presentation, we can assure it since we have used this paradigm in both the current and previously published studies. To be more specific, we made the video stimuli in advance. The left half of the video was the regular movie and the right half was the backward version of the same movie (or vice versa). When viewing such video stimuli through stereoscopes, participants could only see the left half of the video with the left eye and the right half of the video with the right eye. In other words, the regular movie and backward movie were viewed dichoptically. Alternatively, if the reviewer means that such dichoptic presentation rarely happens in real world thus not realistic, we agree with the reviewer on one hand. On the other hand, we have explained on page 3 last paragraph and page 4 first paragraph why it is a particular useful paradigm for the main purpose of the present study. Let us make a similar example. The phenomenon of binocular rivalry rarely happens in everyday life. So people may say binocular rivalry is not realistic. However, our visual system does have the ability to deal with such conflicting visual inputs across the eyes, even binocular rivalry is unrealistic! Sometimes it is fun to investigate those seemingly unrealistic functions of our brains since those may also reveal the mystery of our neural system. As we know, despite binocular rivalry is uncommon in daily life, it is frequently used to investigate awareness. And in our work, we use binocular rivalry to measure perceptual ocular dominance.

      Finally, the reviewer queried about if the "dichoptic-backward-movie" adaptation paradigm follow efficient coding and information theory. The information theory and efficient coding assume that messages with low expectedness or of rare occurrence would attract more attention and induce larger neural responses than those with high expectedness. In the "dichoptic-backward-movie" adaptation paradigm, the backward movie should be less expected since the actions of the characters in the backward movie appeared illogical. Thus, according to the information theory and efficient coding, it would be expected that more attention was paid to the backward movie and thus the backward movie might dominate the awareness for a longer period during adaptation (Zhang et al., 2012). However, we instructed participants to follow the regular movie during adaptation. The results of blob detection task also showed a better task performance when the targets appeared in the eye presented with the regular movie, which contradicted with the prediction of the information theory and efficient coding. Thus, it seems not very likely that the "dichoptic-backward-movie" adaptation followed efficient coding and information theory.

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      Gallotto, S., Schuhmann, T., Duecker, F., Middag-van Spanje, M., de Graaf, T. A., & Sack, A. T. (2022). Concurrent frontal and parietal network TMS for modulating attention. iScience, 25(3), 103962. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.isci.2022.103962

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study has uncovered some important initial findings about how certain extracellular vehicles (EVs) from the mother might impact the energy usage of an embryo. While the study's findings are in general solid, some experiments lack statistical power due to small sample sizes. The study's title might be a bit too assertive as the evidence linking maternal mtDNA transmission to changes in embryo energy use is still correlative.

      We would like to express our sincere gratitude to the editors and reviewers for their invaluable comments on this work. Their feedback has been instrumental in enhancing the quality of our manuscript; we have incorporated their suggestions to the best of our abilities.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Q1. Bolumar et al. isolated and characterized EV subpopulations, apoptotic bodies (AB), Microvesicles (MV), and Exosomes (EXO), from endometrial fluid through the female menstrual cycle. By performing DNA sequencing, they found the MVs contain more specific DNA sequences than other EVs, and specifically, more mtDNA were encapsulated in MVs. They also found a reduction of mtDNA content in the human endometrium at the receptive and post-receptive period that is associated with an increase in mitophagy activity in the cells, and a higher mtDNA content in the secreted MVs was found at the same time. Last, they demonstrated that the endometrial Ishikawa cell-derived EVs could be taken by the mouse embryos and resulted in altered embryo metabolism.

      This is a very interesting study and is the first one demonstrating the direct transmission of maternal mtDNA to embryos through EVs.

      A1. Thank you for your kind comments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Q2. In Bolumar, Moncayo-Arlandi et al. the authors explore whether endometrium-derived extracellular vesicles contribute mtDNA to embryos and therefore influence embryo metabolism and respiration. The manuscript combines techniques for isolating different populations of extracellular vesicles, DNA sequencing, embryo culture, and respiration assays performed on human endometrial samples and mouse embryos.

      Vesicle isolation is technically difficult and therefore collection from human samples is commendable. Also, the influence of maternally derived mtDNA on the bioenergetics of embryos is unknown and therefore novel. However, several experiments presented in the manuscript fail to reach statistical significance, likely due to the small sample sizes. Additionally, the experiments do not demonstrate a direct effect of mtDNA transfer on embryo bioenergetics. This has the unfortunate consequence of making several of the authors' conclusions speculative.

      In my opinion the manuscript supports the following of the authors' claims:

      1) Different amounts of mtDNA are shed in human endometrial extracellular vesicles during different phases of the menstrual cycle

      2) Endometrial microvesicles are more enriched for mitochondrial DNA sequences compared to other types of microvesicles present in the human samples

      3) Fluorescently labelled DNA from extracellular vesicles derived from an endometrial adenocarcinoma cell line can be incorporated into hatched mouse embryos.

      4) Culture of mouse embryos with endometrial extracellular vesicles can influence embryo respiration and the effect is greater when cultured with isolated exosomes compared to other isolated microvesicles

      A2. Thank you for your detailed feedback. We have made every effort to enhance the manuscript in this revised version, ensuring that our conclusions are grounded in solid evidence and that they avoid any speculation.

      My main concerns with the manuscript:

      Q3. The authors demonstrate that microvesicles contain the most mtDNA, however, they also demonstrate that only isolated exosomes influence embryo respiration. These are two separate populations of extracellular vesicles.

      A3. This manuscript focuses on the DNA content secreted by the endometrium and captured by the embryo. We identified both mitochondrial DNA and genomic DNA. We have found that mitochondrial DNA is predominantly secreted and encapsulated within microvesicles, while all three types of vesicles encapsulate genomic DNA. Specifically, based on the results we presented in Response A8 to the reviewers and included in the latest version of the manuscript, we observed that exosomes contain the highest amount of genomic DNA. Furthermore, exosomes have the greatest impact on embryo bioenergetics, suggesting that this DNA content may primarily exert this effect. We have thoroughly revised the manuscript, focusing our message on DNA content.

      Q4. mtDNA is not specifically identified as being taken up by embryos only DNA.

      A4. We agree with the reviewer; as we mention in answer A9, EdU does not specifically label mitochondrial DNA. To solve this issue, we incubated a synthetic molecule of labeled mtDNA with embryos and analyzed mtDNA incorporation using confocal microscopy. We co-cultured hatched mouse embryos (3.5 days) with an ATP8 sequence conjugated with Biotin overnight at 37ºC and 5% CO2. We then permeabilized embryos, incubated them with Streptavidine-Cy3 for 45 min, and visualized the results using an SP8 confocal microscope (Leica). We observed mtDNA internalization by cells of the hatched embryos; please see new supplementary Figure 7 and lines 234-237 on page 9 and lines 583-592 M&M on page 21.

      Q5. The authors do not rule out that other components packaged in extracellular vesicles could be the factors influencing embryo metabolism.

      A5. The vesicular subtypes contain molecules beyond DNA, such as microRNAs, proteins, or lipids. Our laboratory has studied the transmission of vesicles and their relationship with their contents (particularly microRNAs) and their connection to maternal-fetal communication. In this study, we focused on genomic/mitochondrial DNA. We cannot exclude the possibility that other molecules may influence metabolism; this statement is already noted in the discussion section on lines 328-331 on page 12.

      Q6. Taken together, these concerns seem to contradict the implication of the title of the manuscript – the authors do not demonstrate that inheritance of maternal mtDNA has a direct causative effect on embryo metabolism.

      A6. We have modified the title to better align with the manuscript’s results. The proposed new title for the manuscript is “Vertical transmission of maternal DNA through extracellular vesicles modulates embryo bioenergetics during the periconceptional period.”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      Q7. Would it be possible to validate the mtDNA content and mitophagy activity in different periods using the Ishikawa cells?

      A7. Unfortunately, this validation cannot be achieved with in vitro cultures of cell lines, especially with a cell line such as the endometrial adenocarcinoma-derived Ishikawa cell line. While mimicking the menstrual cycle (as observed in Figure 3 of the manuscript) is entirely artificial, we believe that the statistically significant results obtained in human samples faithfully represent the biological processes involved. Using a cell line, in our opinion, would not provide us with novel information.

      Q8. Characterization of the EVs subpopulations from Ishikawa cells and direct evidence to show the EdU labeled DNA is contained in the EVs are necessary.

      A8. To address this concern, we designed a novel experiment. We cultured Ishikawa cells in the presence of Edu, isolated the three types of vesicles, and evaluated labeled DNA content by flow cytometry (as illustrated in Supplementary Figure 5). All three types of vesicles exhibited positive EdU-DNA labeling; notably, the exosomal fraction demonstrated substantially higher DNA content than the other vesicle populations. Please see new supplementary Figure 5 and lines 217-218 on page 9, and lines 576-582 of the M&M on pages 20-21.

      Q9. Would EdU incorporate into the genomic DNA or mitochondrial DNA?

      A9. EdU (5-ethynyl-2′-deoxyuridine) is a nucleoside analog of thymidine and becomes incorporated into DNA during active DNA synthesis. EdU labels all newly synthesized DNA, both genomic and mitochondrial; however, we cannot differentiate between them with this technique.

      Q10. It is difficult to assess whether the EV-derived DNA was taken by the TE or ICM without immunostaining of cell lineage markers in mouse embryos.

      A10. We did not aim to label the inner cell mass, as the vesicles primarily enter through trophectodermal cells. The images presented in Figure 4 and Supplementary Figure 5 depict trophectoderm cells.

      Q11. It is also valuable to perform co-staining of Mitotracker to show the co-localization of EdU labelled DNA and the mitochondrial.

      A11. Per the reviewer's suggestion, we conducted an experiment as described in the following text. We isolated MVs from the culture media of EdU-treated Ishikawa cells and co-incubated them with embryos overnight. The resulting images (See Author response image 1) show an embryo subjected to staining with EdU-tagged DNA labeled with Alexa Fluor 488 (green), Mitotracker Deep Red (red), and nuclei (blue). Detailed views of the embryo are presented in panels A and B. Notably, we observed co-localization of mitochondria and EdU-tagged DNA, as indicated by the white arrows. Despite this intriguing finding, we chose not to include these results in the initial version of the manuscript; however, if the editor deems it appropriate, we would be delighted to incorporate them into the final version. The experimental procedure for co-localization of EdU DNA-tagged with mitochondria involved the following steps: Mitotracker Deep Red FM (Thermo Fisher Scientific, M22426) was added to the embryo media at a final concentration of 200 nM, and the embryos were subsequently incubated for 45-60 minutes prior to fixation.

      Author response image 1.

      Co-localization of mitochondria and EdU-tagged DNA in mouse embryos. Representative micrograph of an embryo co-incubated with MVs isolated from the culture media of Ishikawa cells treated with EdU. EdU-tagged DNA was labeled with Alexa Fluro 488 (green). Mitotracker Deep Red (mitochondria; red) and nuclei (blue). A and B) magnified images of the embryo show detailed co-localization of mitochondria and EdU-tagged DNA (white arrows). Negative control) Embryos incubated with MVs isolated from control Ishikawa cells (without EdU incubation) and stained with the click-it reaction cocktail. A and B showed magnified images of the embryo. Notice the absence of EdU-Alexa Fluro 488 signals (green).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      Q12. It would be helpful if the authors could provide citations and rationale for why they chose specific molecular markers to validate the different population of extracellular vesicles.

      A12. Different extracellular populations are defined by molecular marker signatures that reflect their origin. VDAC1 forms ionic channels in the mitochondrial membrane, has a role in triggering apoptosis, and has been described as characteristic of ABs.[1]

      The ER protein Calreticulin has also been used as an AB marker [2]; however, other studies have noted the presence of Calreticulin in MVs. [1] This apparent non-specificity may derive from apoptotic processes, during which the ER membrane fragments and forms vesicles smaller than ABs, which would contain Calreticulin and sediment at higher centrifugal forces.[3,4] In fact, proteomic studies have linked the presence of Calreticulin with vesicular fractions of a size range relevant for MVs [5] and ABs [6].

      ARF6, a GTP-binding protein implicated in cargo sorting and promoting MV formation, has been proposed as an MV marker. [7,8]

      Classic markers of EXOs include molecules involved in biogenesis, such as tetraspanins (CD63, CD9, CD81), Alix, TSG101, and flotillin-1.[9,10] Nonetheless, studies have recently reported the widespread nature of such markers among various EV populations, although with different relative abundances (such as is the case for CD9, CD63, HSC70, and flotillin-1[11]). Notably, certain molecular markers (such as TSG101[1,11]) have been ratified as specific to EXOs.

      References

      1. D. K. Jeppesen, M. L. Hvam, B. Primdahl-Bengtson, A. T. Boysen, B. Whitehead, L. Dyrskjøt, T. F. Orntoft, K. A. Howard, M. S. Ostenfeld, J. Extracell. Vesicle. 2014, 3, 25011, doi: 10.3402/jev.v3.25011.

      2. J. van Deun, P. Mestdagh, R. Sormunen, V. Cocquyt, K. Vermaelen, J. Vandesompele, M. Bracke, O. De Wever, A. Hendrix, J. Extracell. Vesicles. 2014, 3:24858, doi: 10.3402/jev.v3.24858.

      3. L. Abas, C. Luschnig, Anal. Biochem. 2010, 401, 217-227, doi: 10.1016/j.ab.2010.02.030.

      4. C. Lavoie, J. Lanoix, F. W. Kan, J. Paiement, J. Cell Sci. 1996, 109(6), 1415-1425.

      5. M. Tong, T. Kleffmann, S. Pradhan, C. L. Johansson, J. DeSousa, P. R. Stone, J. L. James, Q. Chen, L. W. Chamley, Hum. Reprod. 2016, 31(4), 687-699, doi: 10.1093/humrep/dew004.

      6. P. Pantham, C. A. Viall, Q. Chen, T. Kleffmann, C. G. Print, L. W. Chamley, Placenta. 2015, 36, 1463e1473, doi: 10.1016/j.placenta.2015.10.006.

      7. V. Muralidharan-Chari, J. Clancy, C. Plou, M. Romao, P. Chavrier, G. Raposo, C. D'Souza-Schorey, Curr. Biol. 2009, 19, 1875-1885.

      8. C. Tricarico, J. Clancy, C. D'Souza-Schorey, Small GTPases. 2016, 0(0), 1-13.

      9. M. Colombo, G. Raposo, C. Théry, Annu. Rev. Cell. Dev. Biol. 2014, 30, 255-289, doi: 10.1146/annurev-cellbio-101512-122326.

      10. S. Mathivanan, H. Ji, R. J. Simpson, J. Proteomics. 2010, 73(10), 1907-1920.

      11. J. Kowal, G. Arras, M. Colombo, M. Jouve, J. P. Morath, B. Primdal-Bengtson, F. Dingli, D. Loew, M. Tkach, C. Théry, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A. 2016, 113(8), E968-77.

      Q13. The PCA analysis in supplementary figure 4 A&B needs more explanation for why they think separation of the two conditions based on principal component 1 is sufficient. The small number of replicates makes me concerned because principal component 2 does not show similarity of replicates for the DNase treated samples. Also, 4C has no description in the figure legend.

      A13. The PCA results show a clear separation between the two conditions; we believe this separation is primarily driven by the differences observed in principal component 1 (PC1). We would like to address the concerns raised by the reviewer with the following points:

      1. Interpretation of PCs: In PCA, the principal components represent orthogonal axes capturing the highest variance in the data. PC1 accounts for 56% and 57% of the variance in the two conditions, respectively. The significant variance explained by PC1 suggests that it effectively captures the major sources of variation between the samples.

      2. Sample Replicates and Variability: The concern regarding the small number of replicates is acknowledged, and we understand its impact on the analysis. Despite the limited number of replicates, the consistent pattern of separation in PC1 between the two conditions provides confidence in the observed separation. We also agree that PC2 does not show an apparent similarity among the DNase-treated samples; however, this does not diminish the significance of PC1, which robustly separates the two conditions.

      We include the Figure legend for 4C: “C) Principal component analysis shows EV sample grouping due to specificity in coding-gene sequences.

      Q14. I am confused by the phrasing in the last two sentences of the top paragraph on page 7. Why would apoptotic bodies all have similar content if they encapsulate a greater amount of material making their contents less specific? Please clarify.

      A14. This sentence intended to convey the fact that apoptotic bodies (ABs) are formed from apoptotic cells, they are larger in size, and their content is more non-specific - this non-specific nature arises as they do not encapsulate molecules specifically, unlike the other two types of vesicles. For more detailed information on ABs in human reproduction, we published an extensive review in 2018 (see below).

      Simon C, Greening DW, Bolumar D, Balaguer N, Salamonsen LA, Vilella F. Extracellular Vesicles in Human Reproduction in Health and Disease. Endocr. Rev. 2018 Jun 1;39(3):292-332. doi: 10.1210/er.2017-00229. PMID: 29390102.

      Q15. The first and last sentences of the last paragraph of page 8 seem to contradict each other. Please clarify.

      A15. We observe an enrichment in the amount of mitochondrial DNA in samples during the receptive and post-receptive phases. While the data may not show statistical significance, we observed a trend towards greater enrichment in receptivity compared to pre-receptivity. The lack of significant differences could be attributed to inherent variability among patients. We have also altered the text on page 8 to avoid confusion.

      Q16. Quantification of the rates of DNA incorporation into embryos would strengthen Figure 4 and Supplementary Figure 5.

      A16. We acknowledge the reviewer's feedback, and in response, we conducted an assay to quantify the total DNA incorporated into the embryos. We isolated EVs from the control Ishikawa cell culture media and EdU-treated Ishikawa cell culture media to achieve this. Subsequently, we co-incubated both types of EVs with ten embryos overnight in G2 plus media at 37ºC and 5% CO2.

      After co-incubation, we collected embryos and the culture media containing co-incubated EVs. We then isolated total DNA using the QIAamp® DNA Mini kit (Qiagen; 51304). To label the EdU-DNA particles, we performed a click-it reaction using the Click-iT™ EdU Alexa Fluor™ 488 flow cytometry assay Kit (Thermo Fisher Scientific, ref: C10420) per the manufacturer's instructions. Subsequently, we cleaned and purified DNA using AMPure beads XP (Beckman Coulter, A63882) and eluted DNA in 150 L of 0.1 M Tris-EDTA. Finally, we measured the fluorescence of each sample using a Victor3 plate reader (PerkinElmer). To ensure accuracy, we subtracted the background signal from non-labeled DNA-derived EVs and embryos incubated without EVs for each sample. Despite conducting the experiment twice, we encountered challenges in obtaining clear results, possibly due to the limitation of the technique's resolution.

      Q17. If mtDNA is most enriched in MVs but only embryos cultured with Exos demonstrated differences in respiration the authors need to comment on this discrepancy.

      A17. We ask the reviewer to refer to Answer A3; we have thoroughly revised the manuscript, focusing our message on DNA content.

      Q18. The authors should change the definitive language in the title of the manuscript because all evidence presented is correlative.

      A18.We have modified the title to better align with the manuscript's results. The proposed new title for the manuscript is “Vertical transmission of maternal DNA through extracellular vesicles modulates embryo bioenergetics during the periconceptional period.”

      Q19. I realize this is beyond what the authors intend for the scope of this paper, however, on page 6 the authors describe membranous structures within the ABs but say they couldn't study their presence with organelle-specific markers. Why? Presence of organelles in these vesicles is very interesting!

      A19. As the reviewer rightly points out, we did not study ABs in this manuscript. Analysis of the electron microscopy images suggests the presence of fragments of organelles, most likely originating from apoptotic processes; however, we did not use any specific markers to confirm our assertion. We have modified the text to avoid any confusion. Please see Page 6, Lines 120-121, for further details.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors have examined gene expression between life cycle stages in a range of brown macroalgae to examine whether there are conserved aspects of biological features. 

      Strengths: 

      The manuscript incorporates large gene expression datasets from 10 different species and therefore enables a comprehensive assessment of the degree of conservation of different aspects of gene expression and underlying biology. 

      The findings represent an important step forward in our understanding of the core aspects of cell biology that differ between life cycle phases and provide a substantial resource for further detailed studies in this area. Convincing evidence is provided for the conservation of lifecycle-specific gene expression between species, particularly in core housekeeping gene modules. 

      Weaknesses: 

      I found a few weaknesses in the methodology and experimental design. I think the manuscript could have been clearer when linking the findings to the biology of the brown algae. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The manuscript by Ratchinski et al presents a comprehensive analysis of developmental and life history gene expression patterns in brown algal species. The manuscript shows that the degree of generation bias or generation-specific gene expression correlates with the degree of dimorphism. It also reports conservation of life cycle features within generations and marked changes in gene expression patterns in Ectocarpus in the transition between gamete and early sporophyte. The manuscript also reports considerable conservation of gene expression modules between two representative species, particularly in genes associated with conserved functional characteristics. 

      Strengths: 

      The manuscript represents a considerable "tour de force" dataset and analytical effort. While the data presented is largely descriptive, it is likely to provide a very useful resource for studies of brown algal development and for comparative studies with other developmental and life cycle systems. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Notwithstanding the well-known issues associated with inferring function from transcriptomics-only studies, no major weaknesses were identified by this reviewer. 

      Reviewing Editor Comments:

      The overall assessment of the reviewers does not contain major aspects of concern. We nevertheless recommend that the authors carefully consider the constructive comments, as this will further improve their manuscript. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) Line 32: The abstract states 'considerable conservation of co-expressed gene modules', but the degree of conservation between Ectocarpus and D. dichotoma appeared limited to specific subsets of genes with highly conserved housekeeping functions, e.g., translation. I think the wording of the abstract should be rephrased to better reflect this. 

      We agree that genes with housekeeping functions figure strongly in the gene modules that showed strong conservation between Ectocarpus species 7 and D. dichotoma (and we actually highlight this point in the manuscript) but we do not believe that this invalidates the conservation. In the analysis shown in Figure 6A, for example, high scores were obtained for both connectivity and density for about a third of the gene modules and these modules cover broad range of cellular functions. This is a significant result given the large phylogenetic distance and we feel that "considerable conservation" is appropriate as a description of the level of correlation. 

      (2) Introduction - The Introduction needs a better explanation of the biology of the life cycle phases. Some of this information is present in the 1st paragraph of Materials and Methods, although it would be preferable to include this information within the main text, ideally within the Introduction before the Results are described. For example, when are flagella present? The presence of flagella could be indicated in Figure 3. The ecology of the life cycle is also not described. Are life cycles present in the same ecological niche? Do they co-exist or occupy distinct environments? It would be useful to understand how the observed genotypes could relate to this wider aspect of the brown algal biology. 

      We have added a sentence to explain that zoids (gametes and spores) are the only flagellated stages of the life cycle (line 678). In addition, in the legend for Figure 3, we have indicated which of the life cycle stages analysed in panel 3A consisted entirely or partially of flagellated cells. We have also added information about phenology to the Introduction. 

      (3) Line 127. 'The proportion of generation specific genes was positively correlated with the level of dimorphism'. The level of dimorphism between species was not clear to me. This needs to be clearly displayed in Figure 1B. 

      We had attempted to illustrate the level of dimorphism, using the size of each generation as a measurable proxy, in Figure S1 but we agree that the information was not very clearly presented. To improve clarity, we now provide independent size scales for each generation of the life cycle in this figure and state in the legend that "Size bars indicate the approximate sizes of each generation of each life cycle, providing an indication of the degree of dimorphism between the two generations.". In the text, Figure S1 is cited earlier in the paragraph but we now repeat the citation of the figure at the end of the sentence "The proportion of generation-specific genes (...) was positively correlated with the level of dimorphism" so that the reader can specifically consult the supplementary figure for this phenotypic parameter. 

      (4) Line 267. Are there known differences in cell wall composition between life cycle phases or within each generation as individual life cycle phases mature (e.g., differences between unicellular and multicellular stages)? 

      Detailed comparative analyses of cell wall composition at different stages of the life cycle have not been carried out for brown algae. However, Congo red stains Ectocarpus gametophytes but not sporophytes (Coelho et al., 2011), indicating a difference in cell wall composition between the two generations. Zoids (spores and gametes) do not have a cell wall and calcofluor white staining of meio-spores has indicated that a cell wall only starts to be deposited 24-48 hours post-release (Arun et al., 2013).

      (5) Line 388. The authors should comment on the accuracy of OrthoFinder for different gene types across this degree of divergence (250 MYA). The best conservation was found in genes with housekeeping characteristics (line 401). It may be that these gene modules show the highest degree of conservation in expression patterns, but I also wonder whether they pattern may also emerge because finding true orthologues is easier for highly conserved gene families. 

      We do not believe that this is the case because, as mentioned above, the "housekeeping" modules cover quite a broad range of cellular functions. Note also that the modules were given functional labels based on their being clearly enriched in genes corresponding to a particular class of function but not all the genes in a module have a predicted function that corresponds to the functional classification. 

      However, we have carried out an analysis to look for evidence of the bias proposed by the reviewer. For this, we used BLASTp identity scores as an approximate proxy for pairwise identity between Ectocarpus species 7 and D. dichotoma one-to-one orthologues in each module and plotted the mean identity score for each module against the Fischer test p-value of the contingency table in Figure 6C (Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1.

      Plot of estimations of the mean percent shared identity between the orthologues within each module (based on mean BLASTp identity scores) against log10(pvalue) values obtained with the Fisher's exact test applied in Figure 6C to determine whether pairs of modules shared a greater number of one-to-one orthologues than expected from a random distribution. Error bars indicate the standard deviation. 

      This analysis did not detect any correlation between the degree of sequence conservation of orthologues in a module and the degree of conservation of the module between Ectocarpus species 7 and D. dichotoma.

      Minor comments 

      (1) Line 650 loose should be lose.

      The error has been corrected.

      (2) Line 695 filtered through a 1 μm filter to remove multicellular gametophyte fractions. Is this correct? It seems too small to allow gametes to pass through. 

      Yes, the text is correct, a 1 μm filter was used. The gametes do pass through this filter, presumably because they do not have a rigid cell wall, allowing them to squeeze through the filter when a light pressure is applied. 

      (3) Line 709 - DDT should be DTT 

      The error has been corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) It is not clear why the chosen species for analysis do not include fucoid algae, which display a high degree of dimorphism between generations and which are relatively well studied with respect to gene expression patterns during early development. Indeed, it was recently shown that gene expression patterns in developing embryos of Fucus spp. obey the "hourglass" pattern whereby gene expression shows a minima of transcription age index (i.e., higher expression of evolutionarily older genes) associated with differentiation at the phylotypic stage. I am somewhat surprised that the manuscript does not consider this feature in the analysis or discussion. 

      Brown algae of the order Fucales have diploid life cycles and therefore do not alternate between a sporophyte and gametophyte generation. It is for this reason that we thought that it was more interesting to compare Ectocarpus species 7 with D. dichotoma, which has a haploid-diploid life cycle.

      (2) In Discussion, the comparison of maternal to zygote transition in animals and land plants, which show a high degree of dimorphism, with Ectocarpus would be strengthened by data/discussion from other brown algae that show a high degree of dimorphism. 

      Animals have diploid life cycles and dimorphism in that lineage generally refers to sexual rather than generational dimorphism. Land plants do have highly dimorphic haploiddiploid life cycles but it is unclear how this characteristic relates to events that occur during the maternal to zygote transition. In Ectocarpus, the transition from gamete to the first stages of sporophyte development involved more marked changes in gene expression than we observed when comparing the mature sporophyte and gametophyte generations (Figure 3C). At present, there is no evidence that events during these two transitions are correlated. The relationship between changes in gene expression during very early sporophyte development and during alternation of life cycle generations could be investigated further using a highly dimorphic kelp model system such as Saccharina latissima but we are not aware of any studies that have specifically addressed this point. 

      (3) Since marked changes were observed during the transition from gamete to early sporophyte in Ectocarpus, it would be interesting to know how gene expression patterns change during the transition from gamete to partheno-sporophyte. Would the same patterns of downregulation and upregulation be expected? 

      The sporophyte individuals derived from gamete parthenogenesis (parthenosporophytes) are indistinguishable morphologically and functionally from diploid sporophytes derived from gamete fusions (see line 76). They also express generation marker genes in a comparable manner (Peters et al., 2008). Based on these observations, we have treated partheno-sporophytes and diploid sporophytes as equivalent in our experiments. For clarity, we have now distinguished partheno-sporophyte from diploid sporophyte samples in Table S1. 

      (4) The authors show a correlation between the degree of dimorphism and generation-biased or generation-specific expression. How was the degree of dimorphism quantified? 

      The degree of dimorphism is illustrated in Figure S1 using the relative size of the two generations as a proxy. Size estimations are approximate because the size of an individual of a particular species is quite variable but the ten species nonetheless represent a very clear gradient of dimorphism due to the extreme differences in size between generations of species at each end of the scale, with the sporophyte generation being several orders of magnitude larger than the gametophyte generation or visa versa. 

      References

      Arun A, Peters NT, Scornet D, Peters AF, Cock JM, Coelho SM. 2013. Non-cell autonomous regulation of life cycle transitions in the model brown alga Ectocarpus. New Phytol 197:503– 510. doi:10.1111/nph.12007

      Coelho SM, Godfroy O, Arun A, Le Corguillé G, Peters AF, Cock JM. 2011. OUROBOROS is a master regulator of the gametophyte to sporophyte life cycle transition in the brown alga Ectocarpus. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 108:11518–11523. doi:10.1073/pnas.1102274108

      Peters AF, Scornet D, Ratin M, Charrier B, Monnier A, Merrien Y, Corre E, Coelho SM, Cock JM. 2008. Life-cycle-generation-specific developmental processes are modified in the immediate upright mutant of the brown alga Ectocarpus siliculosus. Development 135:1503–1512.doi:10.1242/dev.016303

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Structural colors (SC) are based on nanostructures reflecting and scattering light and producing optical wave interference. All kinds of living organisms exhibit SC. However, understanding the molecular mechanisms and genes involved may be complicated due to the complexity of these organisms. Hence, bacteria that exhibit SC in colonies, such as Flavobacterium IR1, can be good models.

      Based on previous genomic mining and co-occurrence with SC in flavobacterial strains, this article focuses on the role of a specific gene, moeA, in SC of Flavobacterium IR1 strain colonies on an agar plate. moeA is involved in the synthesis of the molybdenum cofactor, which is necessary for the activity of key metabolic enzymes in diverse pathways.

      The authors clearly showed that the absence of moeA shifts SC properties in a way that depends on the nutritional conditions. They further bring evidence that this effect was related to several properties of the colony, all impacted by the moeA mutant: cell-cell organization, cell motility and colony spreading, and metabolism of complex carbohydrates. Hence, by linking SC to a single gene in appearance, this work points to cellular organization (as a result of cell-cell arrangement and motility) and metabolism of polysaccharides as key factors for SC in a gliding bacterium. This may prove useful for designing molecular strategies to control SC in bacterial-based biomaterials.

      Strengths:

      The topic is very interesting from a fundamental viewpoint and has great potential in the field of biomaterials.

      Thank you for this.

      The article is easy to read. It builds on previous studies with already established tools to characterize SC at the level of the flavobacterial colony. Experiments are well described and well executed. In addition, the SIBR-Cas method for chromosome engineering in Flavobacteria is the most recent and is a leap forward for future studies in this model, even beyond SC.

      We appreciate these comments.

      Weaknesses:

      The paper appears a bit too descriptive and could be better organized. Some of the results, in particular the proteomic comparison, are not well exploited (not explored experimentally). In my opinion, the problem originates from the difficulty in explaining the link between the absence of moeA and the alterations observed at the level of colony spreading and polysaccharide utilization, and the variation in proteomic content.

      We have looked at the organisation of the manuscript carefully in this revision, as suggested. In terms of the proteomics, there are a large number of proteins affected by the moeA deletion and not all could be followed up. We chose spreading, structural colour formation and starch degradation to follow up phenotypically, as the most likely to be relevant. For example, (L615-617) we discuss the downregulation of GldL (which is known to be involved Flavobacterial gliding motility [Shrivastava et al., 2013]) in the moeA KO as a possible explanation for the reduced colony spreading of this mutant. Changes in polysaccharide (starch) utilization were seen on solid medium, as well as in the proteomic profile where we observed the upregulation of carbohydrate metabolism proteins linked to PUL (polysaccharide utilisation locus) operons (Terrapon et al., 2015), such as PAM95095-90 (Figure 8), and other carbohydrate metabolism-related proteins, including a pectate lyase (Table S7) which is involved in starch degradation (Aspeborg et al., 2012). And as noted in L555-566 and Figure 9, alterations in starch metabolism were investigated experimentally.

      First, the effect of moeA deletion on molybdenum cofactor synthesis should be addressed.

      MoeA is the last enzyme in the MoCo synthesis pathway, thus if only MoeA is absent the cell would accumulate MPT-AMP (molybdopterin-adenosine monophosphatase) (Iobbi-Nivol & Leimkühler, 2013), and the expressed molybdoenzymes would not be functional. In L582-585, we commented how the lack of molybdenum cofactor may affect the synthesis of molybdoenzymes. However, if you meant to analyse the presence of the small molecules, i.e. the cofactors involved in these pathways, that was an assay we were not able to perform. However, in L585-587, we addressed how the deletion of moeA affected the proteins encoded by the rest of genes in the operon which is relevant to the question.

      Second, as I was reading the entire manuscript, I kept asking myself if moeA (and by extension molybdenum cofactor) was really involved in SC or it was an indirect effect. For example, what if the absence of moeA alters the cell envelope because the synthesis of its building blocks is perturbed, then subsequently perturbates all related processes, including gliding motility and protein secretion? It would help to know if the effects on colony spreading and polysaccharide metabolism can be uncoupled. I don't think the authors discussed that clearly.

      The message of the paper is that the moeA gene, as predicted from a previous genomics analysis, is important in SC. This is based on the representation of the moeA gene in genomes of bacteria that display SC. This analysis does not predict the mechanism. When knocked out, a significant change in structural colour occurred, supporting this hypothesis. Whether this effect is direct or indirect is difficult to assess, as this referee rightly suggests. In order to follow up this central result, we performed proteomics (both intra- and extracellular). As we observed, the deletion of a single gene generated many changes in the proteomic profile, thus in the biological processes. Based on the known functions of molybdenum cofactor, we could only hypothesize that pterin metabolism is important for SC, not exactly how.

      We have discussed the links between gliding/spreading and polysaccharide metabolism more clearly, with reference to the literature, as quite a bit is known here including possible links to SC.

      “Polysaccharide metabolism in IR1 has been linked to changes in colony color and motility through the study of fucoidan metabolism (van de Kerkhof et al., 2022). Polysaccharide degradation and gliding motility are coupled to the same mechanism: the phylum-specific type IX secretion system, used for the secretion of enzymes and proteins involved in both functions (McKee et al., 2021).” [L622-626]

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors constructed an in-frame deletion of moeA gene, which is involved in molybdopterin cofactor (MoCo) biosynthesis, and investigated its role in structural colors in Flavobacterium IR1. The deletion of moeA shifted colony color from green to blue, reduced colony spreading, and increased starch degradation, which was attributed to the upregulation of various proteins in polysaccharide utilization loci. This study lays the ground for developing new colorants by modifying genes involved in structural colors.

      Major strengths and weaknesses:

      The authors conducted well-designed experiments with appropriate controls and the results in the paper are presented in a logical manner, which supports their conclusions.

      We appreciate these comments.

      Using statistical tests to compare the differences between the wild type and moeA mutant, and adding a significance bar in Figure 4B, would strengthen their claims on differences in cell motility regarding differences in cell motility.

      Thank you. Figure 4B contains the significance bars that represent the standard deviation of the mean value of the three replicates, but we have modified it to make them more clear.

      Additionally, in the result section (Figure 6), the authors suggest that the shift in blue color is "caused by cells which are still highly ordered but narrower", which to my knowledge is not backed up by any experimental evidence.

      Thanks. We mentioned that the mutant cells are narrower than the wild type based on the estimated periodicity resulting from the goniometry analysis (L427-430). We will now say “likely to be narrower based on the estimated periodicity from the optical analysis” rather than just “narrower”.

      “This optical analysis aligns with visual observations, confirming the blue shift in ΔmoeA, and suggests that this change in SC is caused by cells which are likely to be narrower based on the estimated periodicity from the optical analysis.” [L409-411]

      Overall, this is a well-written paper in which the authors effectively address their research questions through proper experimentation. This work will help us understand the genetic basis of structural colors in Flavobacterium and open new avenues to study the roles of additional genes and proteins in structural colors.

      Much appreciated.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor Comments:

      As you will see, the reviewers were rather positive about the paper but suggested a number of points to improve it, including a discussion of the direct role of moeA as well as specific editorial comments.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      More specific comments to the authors:

      (1( Line 300, Paragraph on bioinformatic analysis of molybdopterin operon : As written, it is not clear whether this operon is crucial for pterin cofactor synthesis or only some genes are involved. And what is the contribution of moeA?

      Based on the bioinformatic analysis done in Zomer et al., 2024, we know the score of which genes of the molybdopterin cofactor synthesis operon may be more relevant to the display of SC, in addition to moeA. We chose moeA to KO as it had the highest score, being careful to delete the coding sequence and not any upstream promoter. The other genes in the predicted operon are moaE, moaC2, and moaA. Then in the proteomic analysis (L435-442), we analysed how the encoded proteins from this operon were upregulated (MoaA, MoaC2, and MobA), indicating also the unaltered proteins (MoeZ and MoaE) and the undetected proteins (MoaD and SumT). Nevertheless, the operon is crucial for pterin cofactor synthesis because it contains all the genes involved in the pathway, and moeA encoded the enzyme for the last reaction of the pathway, being the the molecule produced in the mutated pathway the adenylated molybdopterin (MPT-AMP) instead of molybdenum cofactor (MoCo).

      (2) Paragraph line 342 on moeA mutant phenotyping :

      Is the reduction in colony spreading caused by a defect in single-cell gliding motility or is the cause more complex? This can be quantified.

      We believe the cause is more complex. As mentioned above, for example, in (L615-617) we discuss the downregulation of GldL (which is known to be involved Flavobacterial gliding motility [Shrivastava et al., 2013]) in the moeA KO as a possible explanation for the reduced colony spreading of this mutant. This cannot be explained simply by spreading, but must (from the optical analysis) indicate changes in cell organisation/dimensions.

      (3) During the description of the moeA mutant phenotype (associated with Figures 2 and 4) and throughout the article, the optical properties are « functions » of colony spreading and moeA-dependent metabolism. However it is not quite clear if these two effects are independent or if one may be a consequence of the other.

      As noted above, colony spreading alone does not explain the blue-shift in SC observed. Given the function of MoeA (molybdate insertion into MPT-AMP [adenylated molybdopterin], MoMPT [molybdenum-molybdopterin] formation) for the synthesis of MoCo (molybdenum cofactor), the primary effect seems to be on metabolism but as we are dealing with an influential enzymatic cofactor a number of secondary effects are likely, and indeed the proteomics supports this. It is likely that the effect on spreading is secondary as seen with the downregulation of GldL (see above), but we cannot be sure.

      (4) Paragraph starting line 381 and Figure 5 on gliding motility:

      Gliding motility has to be tested at the level of single cells, allowing a more thorough characterization of the spreading defects. In addition, since gliding is entangled with Type IX-dependent secretion in Flavobacteria, the authors should test if Type IXdependent was perturbed in the absence of moeA.

      Based on the intracellular and extracellular proteomic analyses, the regulated T9SS proteins in the absence of moeA are the downregulation of GldL and SprT, and the upregulation of PorU. It shows the log2 FC (moeA/WT) of each these extracellular proteins:

      Author response table 1.

      <-1: downregulated in moeA KO, -1<X<1: no significant regulation, >1: upregulated in moeA KO, -: not detected

      (5) L401: In my opinion, the section "Quantification of the optical responses of IR1 WT and ΔmoeA colonies" should be moved up, before the characterization of motility.

      We have done this, as suggested. The section was moved from L401-423 to L388-411.

      (6) L475: Proteome comparison: « Of the total known proteins in IR1, 27.5% (1,504 proteins) extracellular proteins were identified » Are some of these proteins also found in the cell fraction? Wouldn't it be more accurate to write that « 1504 proteins were found in the extracellular fraction"?

      We have done this, as suggested.

      “Of the total known proteins in IR1, 27.5% (1,504 proteins) proteins were detected in the extracellular fraction, 60.4% (909) were statistically significant (p<0.01), with 20.5% (186) considered downregulated, and 20% (182) upregulated in ΔmoeA (Figure 7B).” [L484-486]

      How can the authors exclude contamination of the extracellular fraction? This could easily explain the number of proteins lacking secretion signals: "29.6% (55) were likely secreted through a non-classical way, lacking typical secretion sequence motifs in their N-terminus."

      Based on the results from SecretomeP and SignalP, we excluded contamination, reducing the significant downregulated proteins from 186 (L476) to 69 (L486), and the upregulated ones from 182 (L477) to 111 (L500).

      (7) L490: if the protein misannotated flagellin is highly downregulated, why not push the analysis a bit further and ask what true function may be perturbed? In addition, it should not be classified as a motility protein in Table S6 and considered as a motility protein in the article.

      We reconsidered the information given by this and decided to remove it because after checking the homology of the polypeptide by Blast searching, we feel it is probably due to a missannotation.

      As is, the whole proteomic section is not that useful. Too many functions are evoked and the reader is not directed toward any particular conclusion. The most convincing hits from the proteomic analysis should be confirmed using another method. Transcriptional regulation could be easily probed by RT-qPCR. Or, since genetics is possible, proteins could be tagged and levels compared by western blot maybe? Do knock-out of the encoding genes generate any phenotype on SC? This would bring weight to the proteomic analysis.

      We have revised the proteomics section and removed functions that are not directly relevant to our conclusion.

      We feel the most important observation suggested by proteomics was the possible link between moeA and starch metabolism, because the metabolism of complex polysaccharides is important in the Flavobacteriia and known to be linked to SC (van de Kerkhof et al., 2022). It was not possible to follow up every pathway suggested by the proteomics, but the study is appropriately performed with the correct statistics.

      (8) Figure 9 : Does the absence of moeA affect the spreading of ASWS? Were colony sizes similar during the starch degradation assay? How can the authors rule out the idea that starch degradation is impacted by the difference in spreading rather than an independent function of moeA in starch metabolism? Slower spreading could lead to the accumulation of amylases, hence stronger activity. Why does starch degradation only accumulate at the center of the colony in the WT case?

      The colonies of the WT and moeA had similar size during the starch degradation assay (2 days). However, after day 3, only WT colonies kept expanding on diameter.

      Starch degradation is logically in the centre of the colony as it is where the greatest concentration of cells exists, secreting degradative enzymes, for the longest time. Presumably starch degradation at the colony edge is not yet seen as the action of extracellular enzymes is low and has not had time to degrade the starch to the point that there is no iodine staining.

      “In contrast to other media where ΔmoeA colony expansion was less than WT, the ΔmoeA showed similar colony spreading and stronger starch degradation, supporting a role of moeA in complex polysaccharides metabolism.” [L562-565]

      (9) Finally, I am not quite sure what the authors mean by « a role of moeA in complex polysaccharides metabolism ». Are they referring to enzymes secreted in the medium to degrade starch? or to the incorporation and use of starch degradation products?

      We meant that the deletion of moeA showed an increase of extracellular starch degradation as seen in the iodine assay (Figure 9), as well as the upregulation of three different PUL operons (Figure 8).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The paper in general is well written with proper experimentation. However, here are a few recommendations for improving the writing and presentation, including minor corrections to the text and figures.

      Thank you.

      (1) It would be helpful for the readers if you could expand on "some metabolic pathways" in line 71. Please provide examples of metabolic pathways that are linked to SC.

      We have done this.

      “A recent bioinformatic study has shown the possible link of some metabolic pathways, such as carbohydrate, pterin, and acetolactate metabolism, to bacterial SC (Zomer et al., 2024).”[L70-72]

      (2) "Line 79 : a bioinformatics analysis", please mention what kind of bioinformatics analysis was done and by whom to provide clarity for the readers: Either mention bio info analysis or give more details on what kind of bio info analysis and study done by whom"

      We have clarified this, as suggested.

      “A large-scale, genomic-based analysis of 117 bacteria strains (87 with SC and 30 without) identified genes potentially involved in SC by comparing gene presence/absence, providing a SC-score (Zomer et al., 2024). By this method, pterin pathway genes were strongly predicted to be involved in SC.” [L80-83]

      (3) Please correct "Bacteria strains used in this study" to "bacterial" strains in Line 122.

      We have done so.

      (4) Please indicate in "Lines 394-396" that there were no vortex patterns observed in the moeA mutant.

      We have done so.

      “In contrast, ΔmoeA exhibited limited motility, with a more tightly packed cell organization and a fine, slow-moving layer at the edge (Figure 6, blue arrows), and did not show a ‘vortex’ pattern. This suggests that moeA deletion significantly impairs cell motility and colony expansion.” [428-L431]

      (5) In Figure 4 it looks like with a different carbon source (ASWB with agar and Fucoidan (ASWBF)) the moeA mutant and wild type exchanges its phenotype compared to ASWBKC. Could you explain why this happens in the discussion by highlighting the differences between fucose and Kappa-Carrageenan or confirm if there are any differences in the carbohydrate utilization between the wild type and moeA mutant using biolog assays?

      We have explained the differences. Biolog would not be appropriate as we are looking for metabolic processes of bacteria on surfaces (agar) and this is not necessarily appropriate to biolog, which we understand uses liquid cultivation in microplates.

      “On different polysaccharide media, the ΔmoeA strain showed varied SC and colony expansion patterns: green/blue SC and low colony expansion on agar, intense blue SC and low colony expansion on kappa-carrageenan, dull green SC and low colony expansion on fucoidan, and blue/green SC with higher colony expansion on starch. Interestingly, the color phenotype of the WT and ΔmoeA exchanged their phenotype on kappa-carrageenan (a simple linear sulfated polysaccharide of D-galactopyranose) and fucoidan (a complex sulfated polysaccharide of fucose and other sugars as galactose, xylose, arabinose and rhamnose), showing the importance of the polysaccharide metabolism in SC. While reduced motility has been associated with dull or absent SC, and reduced polysaccharide metabolism (Kientz et al., 2012a; Johansen et al., 2018), ΔmoeA showed reduced motility, but an intense blue SC, and high polysaccharide metabolism. Based on these results, we established a link among polysaccharide metabolism, MoCo biosynthesis, and SC, showing that intense SC is not strictly dependent on motility.” [L636-648]

      (6) In the discussion "Line 632" it is unclear what loss is being limited, and it would help strengthen your discussion if you could add references for lines: 633-636. There are a lot of hypotheses in lines 637-642, it would help the readers if you could clearly mention that these are hypotheses and will need experimental evidence or provide appropriate evidence to support these claims.

      We have done this.

      “Ecologically, we hypothesize that dense, highly structured bacterial colonies, such as necessary for the SC phenotype, can enhance the uptake of metabolic degradation products from complex polysaccharides. These large macromolecules are often partially hydrolyzed extracellularly because they are too large to pass through bacterial cell membranes. For example, marine Vibrionaceae strains that produce lower levels of extracellular alginate lyases tend to aggregate more strongly, potentially facilitating localized degradation and uptake of polysaccharides (D’Souza et al., 2023). Additionally, certain marine bacteria employ a "selfish" mechanism to internalize large polysaccharide fragments into their periplasmic space, minimizing loss to the environment and enhancing substrate utilization (Reintjes et al., 2017). Bacteria secrete enzymes into the surrounding environment to break these polysaccharides down into more easily absorbable monosaccharides or oligosaccharides. This mechanism suggests that the colony structure could create a physical barrier that keeps these products concentrated and near the cells, allowing the colony to efficiently access and utilize these products, preventing the leakage into the surrounding environment. While SC may also yield other ecological benefits associated with growth in biofilms, the highly structured colonies that characterize SC may be more resistant against invasion by competitor species scavenging for degradation products, than an unstructured biofilm. This model is consistent with the observation that SC is associated with polysaccharide metabolism genes, and with the recent observation that SC is mainly localized on surface and interface environments such as airwater interfaces, tidal flats, and marine particles (Zomer et al., 2024).” [L650-670]

      (7) It would help the readers if you could expand on how polysaccharide metabolism is linked to motility in Line 610.

      As indicated previously, this is known and we will clarify.

      “Polysaccharide metabolism in IR1 has been linked to changes in colony color and motility through the study of fucoidan metabolism (van de Kerkhof et al., 2022).” [L622-623]

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment:

      “…However, the findings are reliant on high concentrations of inhibitor drugs, and mechanistic details about the molecular interaction and respective functions of ABHD2 and mPRb are incomplete.”

      As discussed below in the response to Reviewers the drug concentrations used span the full dose response of the active range of each drug. In cases where the drug concentrations required to block oocyte maturation where significantly higher than those reported in the literature, we considered those drugs ineffective. In terms of the molecular details of the mechanistic interaction between mPRb and ABHD2, we now provide additional data confirming their molecular interaction to produce PLA2 activity where each protein alone is insufficient. Although these new studies provide more mechanistic insights, there remains details of the ABHD2-mPR interactions that would need to be addressed in future studies which are beyond the scope of the current already extensive study.   

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer 1

      (1) The mechanism governing the molecular assembly of mPRbeta and ABHD2 remains unclear. Are they constitutively associated or is their association ligand-dependent? Does P4 bind not only to mPRbeta but also to ABHD2, as indicated in Figure 6J? In the latter case, the reviewer suggests that the authors conduct a binding experiment using labeled P4 with ABHD2 to confirm this interaction and assess any potential positive or negative cooperativity with a partner receptor.

      The co-IP experiments presented in Figure 5E argue that the two receptors are constitutively associated at rest before exposure to P4; but at low levels since addition of P4 increases the association between mPRβ and ABHD2 by ~2 folds. Importantly, we know from previous work (Nader et al., 2020) and from imaging experiments in this study that mPR recycles in immature oocytes between the PM and the endosomal compartment. It is not clear at this point within which subcellular compartment the basal association of mPR and ABHD2 occurs. We have tried to elucidate this point but have not been able to generate a functional tagged ABHD2. We generated GFP-tagged ABHD2 at both the N- and C-terminus but these constructs where not functional in terms of their ability to rescue ABHD2 knockdown. This prevented us from testing the association dynamics between ABHD2 and mPR.   

      Regarding whether ABHD2 in the oocyte directly binds P4 or not, we had in the initial submission no data directly supporting this rather we based the cartoon in Fig. 6J on the findings from Miller et al. (Science 2016) who showed that ABHD2 in sperm binds biotinylated P4. With the use of a new expression system to produce ABHD2 in vitro (please see below) we were able to try the experiment suggested by the Reviewer. In vitro expressed ABHD2 was incubated with biotinylated P4, and binding tested on a streptavidin column. Under these conditions we could not detect any specific binding of P4 to ABHD2, however, these experiments remain somewhat preliminary and would require validation using additional approaches to conclusively test whether Xenopus ABHD2 binds P4 or not. The discrepancy with the Miller et al. findings could be species specific as they tested mammalian ABHD2.  

      (2) The authors have diligently determined the metabolite profile using numerous egg cells. However, the interpretation of the results appears incomplete, and inconsistencies were noted between Figure 2B and Supplementary Figure 2C. Furthermore, PGE2 and D2 serve distinct roles and have different elution patterns by LC-MS/MS, thus requiring separate measurements. In addition, the extremely short half-life of PGI2 necessitates the measurement of its stable metabolite, 6-keto-PGF1a, instead. The authors also need to clarify why they measured PGF1a but not PGF2a.

      We believe the Reviewer meant to indicate discrepancies between Fig. 2E (not 2B) and Supp. Fig. 2C. Indeed, the Reviewer is correct, and this is because Fig. 2E shows pooled normalized data on a per PG species and frog, whereas Supp. Fig. 2E shows and example of absolute raw levels from a single frog to illustrate the relative basal abundance of the different PG species. We had failed to clarify this in the Supp. Fig. 2E figure legend, which we have now added in the revised manuscript. So, the discrepancies are due to variation between different donor animals which is highlighted in Supp. Fig. 2A. Furthermore, to minimize confusion, in the revised manuscript we revised Supp. Fig. 2C to show only PG levels at rest, to illustrate basal levels of the different PG species relative to each other, which is the goal of this supplemental figure. 

      (3) Although they propose PGs, LPA, and S1P are important downstream mediators, the exact roles of the identified lipid mediators have not been clearly demonstrated, as receptor expression and activation were not demonstrated. While the authors showed S1PR3 expression and its importance by genetic manipulation, there was no observed change in S1P levels following P4 treatment (Supplementary Figure 2D). It is essential to identify which receptors (subtypes) are expressed and how downstream signaling pathways (PKA, Ca, MAPK, etc.) relate to oocyte phenotypes.

      We agree conceptually with the Reviewer that identifying the details of the signaling of the different GPCRs involved in oocyte maturation would be interesting. However, our lipidomic data argue that the activation of a PLA2 early in the maturation process in response to P4 leads to the production of multiple lipid messengers that would activate GPCRs and branch out the signaling pathway to activate various pathways required for the proper and timely progression of oocyte maturation. Preparing the egg for fertilization is complex; so, it is not surprising that a variety of pathways are activated simultaneously to properly initiate both cytoplasmic and nuclear maturation to transition the egg from its meiotic arrest state to be ready to support the rapid growth during early embryogenesis. We focus on the S1P signaling pathway specifically because, as pointed out by the Reviewer, we could not detect an increase in S1P even though our metabolomic data collectively argued for an increase. Our results on the S1P pathway -as well as a plethora of other studies historically in the literature that we allude to in the manuscript- argue that these different GPCRs support and regulate oocyte maturation, but they are not essential for the early maturation signaling pathway. For example, for S1P, as shown in Figure 4, the delay/inhibition of oocyte maturation due to S1PR3 knockdown can be reversed at high levels of P4, which presumably leads to higher levels of other lipid mediators that would bypass the need for signaling through S1PR3. This is reminiscent of the kinase cascade driving oocyte maturation where there is significant redundancy and feedback regulation. Therefore, analyzing each receptor subtype that may regulate the different PG species, LPA, and S1P would be a tedious and time-consuming undertaking that goes beyond the scope of the current manuscript. More importantly based on the above arguments, we suggest that findings from such an analysis, similar to the conclusions from the S1PR3 studies (Fig. 4), would show a modulatory role on oocyte maturation rather than a core requirement for the maturation process as observed with mPR and ABHD2. Thus they would provide relatively little insights into the core signaling pathway driving P4-mediated oocyte maturation.

      Reviewer 2:

      (1) The ABHD2 knockdown and rescue, presented in Fig 1, is one of the most important findings. It can and should be presented in more detail to allow the reader to understand the experiments better. E.g.: the antisense oligos hybridize to both ABHD2.S and ABHD2.L, and they knock down both (ectopically expressed) proteins. Do they hybridize to either or both of the rescue constructs? If so, wouldn't you expect that both rescue constructs would rescue the phenotype since they both should sequester the AS oligo? Maybe I'm missing something here.

      For the ABHD2 rescue experiment, the ABHD2 constructs (S or L) were expressed 48 hrs before the antisense was injected. The experiment was conducted in this way to avoid the potential confounding issue of both constructs sequestering the antisense. The assumption is that the injected RNA after protein expression would be degraded thus allowing the injected antisense to target endogenous ABHD2. The idea is to confirm that ABHD2.S expression alone is sufficient to rescue the antisense knockdown as confirmed experimentally.

      However, to further confirm the rescue, we performed the experiment in a different chronological order, where we started with injecting the antisense to knock down endogenous ABHD2 and this was followed 24 hrs later by expressing wild type ABHD2.S. As shown in Author response image 1 this also rescues the knockdown.

      Author response image 1.

      ABHD2 knockdown and rescue. Oocytes were injected with control antisense (Ctrl AS) or specific ABHD2 antisense (AS) oligonucleotides and incubated at 18 oC for 24 hours. Oocytes were then injected with mRNA to overexpress ABHD.S for 48 hours and then treated with P4 overnight. The histogram shows % GVBD in naïve, oocytes injected with control or ABHD2 antisense with or without mRNA to overexpress ABHD2.S.

      In addition, it is critical to know whether the partial rescue (Fig 1E, I, and K) is accomplished by expressing reasonable levels of the ABHD2 protein, or only by greatly overexpressing the protein. The author's antibodies do not appear to be sensitive enough to detect the endogenous levels of ABHD2.S or .L, but they do detect the overexpressed proteins (Fig 1D). The authors could thus start by microinjecting enough of the rescue mRNAs to get detectable protein levels, and then titer down, assessing how low one can go and still get rescue. And/or compare the mRNA levels achieved with the rescue construct to the endogenous mRNAs.

      The dose response of ABHD2 protein expression in correlation with rescue of the ABHD2 knockdown is shown indirectly in Figure 1I and 1J. In experiments ABHD2 knockdown was rescued using either the WT protein or two mutants (H120A and N125A). All three constructs rescued ABHD2 KD with equal efficiency (Fig. 1I), eventhough their expression levels varied (Fig. 1J). The WT protein was expressed at significantly higher levels than both mutants, and N125A was expressed at higher levels than H120A (Fig. 1J), note the similar tubulin loading control. Crude estimation of the WBs argues for the WT protein expression being ~3x that of H120A and ~2x that of N125A, yet all three have similar rescue of the ABHD2 knockdown (Fig. 1I). This argues that low levels of ABHD2 expression is sufficient to rescue the knockdown, consistent with the catalytic enzymatic nature of the ABHD2 PLA2 activity.

      Finally, please make it clear what is meant by n = 7 or n = 3 for these experiments. Does n = 7 mean 7 independently lysed oocytes from the same frog? Or 7 groups of, say, 10 oocytes from the same frog? Or different frogs on different days? I could not tell from the figure legends, the methods, or the supplementary methods. Ideally one wants to be sure that the knockdown and rescue can be demonstrated in different batches of oocytes, and that the experimental variability is substantially smaller than the effect size.

      The n reflects the number of independent female frogs. We have added this information to the figure legends. For each donor frog at each time point 10-30 oocytes were used.

      (2) The lipidomics results should be presented more clearly. First, please drop the heat map presentations (Fig 2A-C) and instead show individual time course results, like those shown in Fig 2E, which make it easy to see the magnitude of the change and the experiment-to-experiment variability. As it stands, the lipidomics data really cannot be critically assessed.

      [Even as heat map data go, panels A-C are hard to understand. The labels are too small, especially on the heat map on the right side of panel B. The 25 rows in panel C are not defined (the legend makes me think the panel is data from 10 individual oocytes, so are the 25 rows 25 metabolites? If so, are the individual oocyte data being collapsed into an average? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of assessing individual oocytes?) And those readers with red-green colorblindness (8% of men) will not be able to tell an increase from a decrease. But please don't bother improving the heat maps; they should just be replaced with more informative bar graphs or scatter plots.]

      We have revised the lipidomics data as requested by the Reviewer. The Reviewer asked that we show the data as a time course with each individual frog as in Fig. 2E. This turns out to be confusing and not a good way to present the data (please see Author response image 2).

      Author response image 2.

      Metabolite levels from 5 replicates of 10 oocytes each at each time point were measured and averaged per frog and per time point. Fold change was measured as the ratio at the 5- and 30-min time points relative to untreated oocytes (T0). FCs that are not statistically significant are shown as faded. Oocytes with mPR knockdown (KD) are boxed in green and ABHD2-KD in purple.

      We therefore revised the metabolomics data as follow to improve clarity. The changes in the glycerophospholipids and sphingolipids determined on the Metabolon CLP platform (specific for lipids) are now shown as single metabolites clustered at the levels of species and pathways and arranged for the 5- and 30-min time points sequentially on the same heatmap as requested (Fig. 2B). This allows for a quick visual overview of the data that clearly shows the decrease in the lipid species following P4 treatment in the control oocytes and not in the mPR-KD or ABHD2-KD cells (Fig. 2B). The individual species are listed in Supplemental Tables 1 and 2. We also revised the Supplemental Tables to include the values for the non-significant changes, which were omitted from the previous submission.

      We revised the metabolomics data from the HD4 platform in a similar fashion but because the lipid data were complimentary and less extensive than those from the CLP platform, we moved that heatmap to Supplemental Fig. 2B.

      For the single oocyte metabolomics, we now show the data as the correlation between FC and p value, which clearly shows the upregulated (including LPA) and downregulated metabolites at T30 relative to T0 (Fig. 2C). The raw data is now shown in a new Supplemental Table 7.  

      (3) The reticulocyte lysate co-expression data are quite important and are both intriguing and puzzling. My impression had been that to express functional membrane proteins, one needed to add some membrane source, like microsomes, to the standard kits. Yet it seems like co-expression of mPR and ABHD2 proteins in a standard kit is sufficient to yield progesterone-regulated PLA2 activity. I could be wrong here - I'm not a protein expression expert - but I was surprised by this result, and I think it is critical that the authors make absolutely certain that it is correct. Do you get much greater activities if microsomes are added? Are the specific activities of the putative mPR-ABHD2 complexes reasonable?

      We thank the Reviewer for this insightful comment. We agree that this is a critical result that would benefit from cross validation, especially given the low level of PLA2 activity detected in the reticulocyte lysate expression system. We have therefore expanded these studies using another in vitro expression system with microsomal membranes based on tobacco extracts (ALiCE®Cell-Free Protein Synthesis System, Sigma Aldrich) to enhance production and stability of the expressed receptors as suggested by the Reviewer. We further prepared virus-like particles (VLPs) from cells expressing each receptor individually or both receptors together. We however could not detect any PLA2 activity from the VLPs. We thus focused on the coupled in vitro transcription/translation tobacco extracts that allow the expression of difficult-to-produce membrane proteins in microsomes. This kit targets membrane protein directly to microsomes using a microsome targeting melittin signal peptide. This system took significant time and effort to troubleshoot and adapt to mPR and ABHD2 expression. We were however ultimately able to produce significantly higher amounts of both ABHD2 and mPRb, which were readily detected by WBs (Supplemental Fig. 4I). In contrast, we could not reliably detect mPR or ABHD2 using WBs from reticulocyte lysates given the limited amounts produced.

      Similarly to our previous findings with proteins produced in reticulocytes, expression of ABHD2 or mPRβ alone was not associated with an increase in PLA2 activity over a two-hour incubation period (Fig. 5C). It is worth noting here that the tobacco lysates had high endogenous PLA2 activity. However, co-expression of both mPRb and ABHD2 produced robust PLA2 activity that was significantly higher than that detected in reticulocyte lysate system (Fig. 5C). Surprisingly, however this PLA2 activity was P4 independent as it was observed when both receptors are co-expressed in the absence of P4.

      These results validate our earlier conclusion that PLA2 activity requires both mPR and ABHD2, so their interaction in needed for enzymatic activity. It is interesting however that in the tobacco expression system this mPR-ABHD2 PLA2 activity becomes for the most part P4 independent. As the tobacco expression system forces both ABHD2 and mPR into microsomes using a signal sequence, the two receptors are enriched in the same vesicular compartment. As they can interact independently of P4 as shown in the co-IP experiments in immature oocytes (Fig. 5D), their forced co-expression in the same microsomal compartment could lead to their association and thus PLA2 activity. This is an attractive possibility that fits the current data, but would need independent validation.

      Reviewer 3:

      There were concerns with the pharmacological studies presented. Many of these inhibitors are used at high (double-digit micromolar) concentrations that could result in non-specific pharmacological effects and the authors have provided very little data in support of target engagement and selectivity under the multiple experimental paradigms. In addition, the use of an available ABHD2 small molecule inhibitor was lacking in these studies.

      For the inhibitors used we performed a full dose response to define the active concentrations. So, inhibitors were not used at one high dose. We then compared the EC50 for each active inhibitor to the reported EC50 in the literature (Table 1). The inhibitors were deemed effective only if they inhibited oocyte maturation within the range reported in the literature. This despite the fact that frog oocytes are notorious in requiring higher concentrations of drug given their high lipophilic yolk content, which acts as a sponge for drugs. So our criteria for an effective inhibitor are rather stringent.  

      Based on these criteria, only 3 inhibitors were ‘effective’ in inhibiting oocyte maturation: Ibuprofen, ACA and MP-A08 with relative IC50s to those reported in the literature of 0.7, 1.1, and 1.6 respectively. Ibuprofen targets Cox enzymes, which produce prostaglandins. We independently confirmed an increase in PGs in response to P4 in oocytes thus validating the drug inhibitory effect. ACA blocks PLA2 and inhibits maturation, a role supported by the metabolomics analyses that shows decrease in the PE/PE/LPE/LPC species; and by the ABHD2-mPR PLA2 activity following in vitro expression. Finally, MP-A08 blocks sphingosine kinase activity, which role is supported by the metabolomics showing a decrease in sphingosine levels in response to P4; and our functional studies validating a role for the S1P receptor 3 in oocyte maturation.     

      As pointed out by the Reviewer, other inhibitors did block maturation at very high concentration, but we do not consider these as effective and have not implicated the blocked enzymes in the early steps of oocyte maturation. To clarify this point, we edited the summary panel (now Fig. 2D) to simplify it and highlight the inhibitors with an effect in the reported range in red and those that don’t inhibit based on the above criteria in grey. Those with intermediate effects are shown in pink. We hope these edits clarify the inhibitors studies.

      Recommendations For the Authors

      Reviewer 2:

      (1) Introduction, para 1. Please change "mPRs mediated" to "mPR-mediated".

      Done

      (2) Introduction, para 2. Please change "cyclin b" to "cyclin B".

      Done

      (3) Introduction, para 2. Please change "that serves" to "which serves".

      Done

      (4) Introduction, para 4. I know that the authors have published evidence that "a global decrease in cAMP levels is not detectable" (2016), but old work from Maller and Krebs (JBC 1979) did see an early, transient decrease after P4 treatment, and subsequent work from Maller said that there was both a decrease in adenylyl cyclase activity and an increase in cAMP activity. Perhaps it would be better to say something like "early work showed a transitory drop in cAMP activity within 1 min of P4 treatment (Maller), although later studies failed to detect this drop and showed that P4-dependent maturation proceeds even when cAMP is high (25)".

      We agree and thank the Reviewer for this recommendation. The text was revised accordingly.

      (5) Results, para 1. Based on the results in Fig 1B, one should probably not assert that ABHD2 is expressed "at levels similar to those of mPRβ in the oocyte"-with different mRNAs and different PCR primers, it's hard to say whether they are similar or not. The RNAseq data from Xenbase in Supp Fig 1 supports the idea that the ABHD2 and mPRβ mRNAs are expressed at similar levels at the message level, although of course mRNA levels and protein levels do not correlate well when different gene products are compared (Wuhr's 2014 Curr Biol paper reported correlation coefficients of about 0.3).

      We agree and have changed the text as follow to specifically point out to RNA: “we confirmed that ABHD2 RNA is expressed in the oocyte at levels similar to those of mPRβ RNA (Fig. 1B).”

      (6) Results, para 2. It would be worth pointing out that since an 18 h incubation with microinjected antisense oligos was sufficient to substantially knock down both the ABHD2 mRNAs (Fig 1C) and the ectopically-expressed proteins (Fig 1D), the mRNA and protein half-lives must be fairly short, on the order of a few hours or less.

      Done

      (7) Figure 1. Please make the western blots (especially Fig 1D) and their labeling larger. These are key results and as it stands the labeling is virtually unreadable on printed copies of the figures. I'm not sure about eLife's policy, but many journals want the text in figures to be no smaller than 5-7 points at 100% size.

      Likewise for many of the western blots in subsequent figures.

      As requested by the Reviewer we have increased the font and size of all Western blots in the Figures.

      (8) Figure 1E, G. I am not sure one should compare the effectiveness of the ABHD2 rescue (Fig 1E) and the mPRβ rescue (Fig 1G). Even if these were oocytes from the same frog, we do not know how the levels of the overexpressed ABHD2 and mPRβ proteins compare. E.g. maybe ABHD2 was highly overexpressed and mPRβ was overexpressed by a tiny amount.

      Although this is a possibility, the expression levels of the proteins here is not of much concern because we previously showed that mPRβ expression effectively rescues mPRβ antisense knockdown which inhibits maturation (please see (Nader et al., 2020)). This argues that at the levels of mRNA injected mPR is functional to support maturation, yet it does not rescue ABHD2 knockdown to the same levels (Fig. 1G). With that it is fair to argue that mPRβ is not as effective at rescuing ABHD2 KD maturation.

      (9) Inhibitor studies: There are two likely problems in comparing the observed potencies with legacy data - in vitro vs in vivo data and frog vs. mammalian data. Please make it clear what is being compared to what when you are comparing legacy data.

      The legacy data are from the literature based on the early studies that defined the IC50 for inhibition primarily using in vivo models (cell line mostly) but not oocytes. Typically, frog oocytes require significantly higher concentrations of inhibitors to mediate their effect because of the high lipophilic yolk content which acts as a sponge for some drugs. So, the fact that the drugs that are effective in inhibiting oocyte maturation (ACA, MP-A08, and Ibuprofen) work in a similar or lower concentration range to the published IC<sub50</sub> gives us confidence as to the specificity of their effect. We have revised Table 1 to include the reference for each IC<sub50</sub> value from the literature to allow the reader to judge the exact model and context used.

      (10) Isn't it surprising that Gas seems to promote maturation, given the Maller data (and data from others) that cAMP and PKA oppose maturation (see also the authors' own Fig 1A) and the authors' previous data sees no positive effect (minor point 7 above)?

      We show that a specific Gas inhibitor NF-449 inhibits maturation (although at relatively high concentrations), which is consistent with a positive role for Gas in oocyte maturation. We argue based on the lipidomics data and the inhibitors data that GPCRs play a modulatory role and not a central early signaling role in terms of releasing oocyte meiotic arrest. They are likely to have effects on the full maturation of the egg in preparation for embryonic development. The actions of the multiple lipid messengers generated downstream of mPRβ activation are likely to act through GPCRs and could signal through Gas or other Ga or even through Gβγ. Minor point 7 refers to the size of Western blots.

      (11) Page 9, bottom: "...one would predict activation of sphingosine kinases...." Couldn't it just be the activity of some constitutively active sphingosine kinase? Maybe replace "activation" with "activity".

      A constitutively sphingosine kinase activity would not make sense as it needs to be activated by P4.

      (12) Sometimes the authors refer to concentrations in molar units plus a power of 10 (e.g. 10-5 M) and sometime in µM or nM, sometimes even within the same paragraph. This makes it unnecessarily difficult to compare. Please keep consistent.

      We replaced all the concentrations through the text to M with scientific notation for consistency as requested by the Reviewer.

      (13) Fig 3I: "Sphingosine kinase" is misspelled.

      This has been corrected. We thank the Reviewer for catching it.

      (14) Legend to Fig. 5: Please change "after P4 treatment in reticulocytes" to "after P4 treatment in reticulocyte lysates".

      Done

      (15) Fig 6J. Doesn't the MAPK cascade inhibit MYT1? I.e. shouldn't the arrow be -| rather than ->?

      Yes the Reviewer is correct. This has been changed. We thank the Reviewer for noticing this error.

      (16) Materials and Methods, second paragraph. Please change "inhibitor's studies" to "inhibitor studies".

      Corrected thanks.

      (17) Table 1: Please be consistent in how you write Cox-2.

      Done.

      Reviewer #3:

      The findings are of potential broad interest, but I have some concerns with the pharmacological studies presented. Many of these inhibitors are used at high (double-digit micromolar) concentrations that could result in non-specific pharmacological effects and the authors have provided very little data in support of target engagement and selectivity under the multiple experimental paradigms. Importantly, several claims regarding lipid metabolism signaling in the context of oocyte maturation are made without critical validation that the intended target is inactivated with reasonable selectivity across the proteome. Several of the inhibitors used for pharmacology and metabolomics are known covalent inhibitors (JZL184 and MJN110) that can readily bind additional lipases depending on the treatment time and concentration.

      I did not find any data using the reported ABHD2 inhibitor (compound 183; PMID: 31525885). Is there a reason not to include this compound to complement the knockdown studies? I believe this is an important control given that not all lipid effects were reversed with ABHD2 knockdown. The proper target engagement and selectivity studies should be performed with this ABHD2 inhibitor.

      We obtained aliquots the reported ABHD2 inhibitor compound 183 from Dr. Van Der Stelt and tested its effect on oocyte maturation at 10<sup>-4</sup>M using both low (10<sup>-7</sup>M) or high (10<sup>-5</sup>M) P4 concentration. Compound 183 partially inhibited P4-mediated oocyte maturation. The new data was added to the manuscript as Supplemental Figure 3D.

      Additional comments:

      (1) Pristimerin was tested at low P4 concentration for effects on oocyte maturation. Authors should also test JZL184 and MJN110 under this experimental paradigm.

      We have tested the effect of high concentration (2.10-<sup>-5</sup>M) of JZL184 or MJN110 on oocyte maturation at low P4 concentration (Author response image 3).  MJN 110 did not have a prominent effect on oocyte maturation at low P4, whereas JZL184 inhibited maturation by 50%. However, this inhibition of maturation required concentrations of JZL 184 that are 10 times higher than those reported in rat and human cells (Cui et al., 2016; Smith et al., 2015), arguing against an important role for a monoacylglycerol enzymatic activity in inducing oocyte maturation.

      Author response image 3.

      The effect of MJN110 and JZL184 compounds on oocyte maturation at low P4 concentration. Oocytes were pre-treated for 2 hours with the vehicle or with the highest concentration of 2.10-<sup>-5</sup> M for both JZL184 or MJN110, followed by overnight treatment with P4 at 10-<sup>7</sup>M. Oocyte maturation was measured as % GVBD normalized to control oocytes (treated with vehicle) (mean + SEM; n = 2 independent female frogs for each compound).

      2) Figure 4A showed different ct values of ODC between Oocytes and spleen, please explain them in the text. There is not any description regarding spleen information in Figure 4A, please make it clear in the text.

      We thank the Reviewer for this recommendation. The text was revised accordingly.

      (3) For Figures 3A, E, and I, there are different concentration settings for comparing the activity, is it possible to get the curves based on the same set of concentrations? The concentration gradient didn't include higher concentration points in these figures, thus the related values are incorrect. Please set more concentration points to improve the figures. And for the error bar, there are different display formats like Figure 4c and 4d, etc. Please uniform the format for all the figures. Additionally, for the ctrl. or veh., please add an error bar for all figures.

      Some of the drugs tested were toxic to oocytes at high concentrations so the dose response was adjusted accordingly. The graphs were plotted to encompass the entire tested dose response. We could have plotted the data on the same x-axis range but that would make the figures uneven and awkward.

      We are not clear what the Reviewer means by “The concentration gradient didn't include higher concentration points in these figures, thus the related values are incorrect.”

      The error bars for all dose responses are consistent throughout all the Figures. They are different from those on bar graphs to improve clarity. If the Reviewer wishes to have the error bars on the bar graphs and dose response the same, we are happy to do so. 

      For the inhibitor studies the data were normalized on a per frog basis to control for variability in the maturation rate in response to P4, which varies from frog to frog. It is thus not possible to add error bars for the controls.

      (4) Please check the sentence "However, the concentration of HA130...... higher that......'; Change "IC50" to "IC50" in the text and tables. Table 1 lists IC50 values in the literature, but the references are not cited. Please include the references properly. For the IC50 value obtained in the research, please include the standard deviation in the table. For reference parts, Ref 1, 27, 32, 46, doublecheck the title format.

      We edited the sentence as follows to be more clear: “However, this inhibition of maturation required high concentrations of HA130  -at least 3 orders of magnitude higher that the reported HA130 IC<sub>50</sub>-…”

      We changed IC50 to subscript in Table 1.

      We added the relevant references in Table 1 to provide context for the cited IC50 values for the different inhibitors used.

      We added SEM to the IC<sub>50</sub> for inhibition of oocyte maturation values in Table 1.

      We checked the titles on the mentioned references and cannot identify any problems.

      References

      Cui, Y., Prokin, I., Xu, H., Delord, B., Genet, S., Venance, L., and Berry, H. (2016). Endocannabinoid dynamics gate spike-timing dependent depression and potentiation. eLife 5, e13185.

      Nader, N., Dib, M., Hodeify, R., Courjaret, R., Elmi, A., Hammad, A.S., Dey, R., Huang, X.Y., and Machaca, K. (2020). Membrane progesterone receptor induces meiosis in Xenopus oocytes through endocytosis into signaling endosomes and interaction with APPL1 and Akt2. PLoS Biol 18, e3000901.

      Smith, M., Wilson, R., O'Brien, S., Tufarelli, C., Anderson, S.I., and O'Sullivan, S.E. (2015). The Effects of the Endocannabinoids Anandamide and 2-Arachidonoylglycerol on Human Osteoblast Proliferation and Differentiation. PloS one 10, e0136546.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      The authors assess the effectiveness of electroporating mRNA into male germ cells to rescue the expression of proteins required for spermatogenesis progression in individuals where these proteins are mutated or depleted. To set up the methodology, they first evaluated the expression of reporter proteins in wild-type mice, which showed expression in germ cells for over two weeks. Then, they attempted to recover fertility in a model of late spermatogenesis arrest that produces immotile sperm. By electroporating the mutated protein, the authors recovered the motility of ~5% of the sperm, although the sperm regenerated was not able to produce offspring using IVF.

      We actually did not write that “sperm regenerated was not able to produce offspring using IVF” but rather that IVF was not attempted because the number of rescued sperm was too low. To address this important point, the ability of sperm to produce embryos was therefore challenged by two different assisted reproduction technologies, that are IVF and ICSI. To increase the number of motile sperm for IVF experiments, we have injected both testes from one male. We also conducted intracytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI) experiments, using only rescued sperm, identified as motile sperm with a normal flagellum. The results of these new experiments have demonstrated that the rescued ARMC2 sperm successfully fertilized eggs and produced embryos at the two-cell stage by IVF and blastocysts by ICSI. These outcomes are presented in Figure 12.

      This is a comprehensive evaluation of the mRNA methodology with multiple strengths. First, the authors show that naked synthetic RNA, purchased from a commercial source or generated in the laboratory with simple methods, is enough to express exogenous proteins in testicular germ cells. The authors compared RNA to DNA electroporation and found that germ cells are efficiently electroporated with RNA, but not DNA. The differences between these constructs were evaluated using in vivo imaging to track the reporter signal in individual animals through time. To understand how the reporter proteins affect the results of the experiments, the authors used different reporters: two fluorescent (eGFP and mCherry) and one bioluminescent (Luciferase). Although they observed differences among reporters, in every case expression lasted for at least two weeks. 

      The authors used a relevant system to study the therapeutic potential of RNA electroporation. The ARMC2-deficient animals have impaired sperm motility phenotype that affects only the later stages of spermatogenesis. The authors showed that sperm motility was recovered to ~5%, which is remarkable due to the small fraction of germ cells electroporated with RNA with the current protocol. The 3D reconstruction of an electroporated testis using state-of-the-art methods to show the electroporated regions is compelling. 

      The main weakness of the manuscript is that although the authors manage to recover motility in a small fraction of the sperm population, it is unclear whether the increased sperm quality is substantial to improve assisted reproduction outcomes. The quality of the sperm was not systematically evaluated in the manuscript, with the endpoints being sperm morphology and sperm mobility. 

      We would like to thank the reviewers for their comments. As previously stated above, we produced additional rescue experiments and performed CASA, morphology observation, IVF and ICSI with the rescued sperm. The rescued ARMC2 sperm exhibited normal morphology (new figure 11 and Supp Fig 8), motility (figure 11), and fecundity (figure 12).  Whereas sperm from untreated KO males were unable to fertilize egg by IVF, the rescued sperm fertilized eggs in vitro at a significant level (mean 62%, n=5), demonstrating that our strategy improves the sperm quality and assisted reproduction outcome (from 0 to 62%). 

      Some key results, such as the 3D reconstruction of the testis and the recovery of sperm motility, are qualitative given the low replicate numbers or the small magnitude of the effects. The presentation of the sperm motility data could have been clearer as well. For example, on day 21 after Armc2-mRNA electroporation, only one animal out of the three tested showed increased sperm motility. However, it is unclear from Figure 11A what the percentage of sperm motility for this animal is since the graph shows a value of >5% and the reported aggregate motility is 4.5%. It would have been helpful to show all individual data points in Figure 11A. 

      We provide now in figure 11A, a graph showing the percentage of rescued sperm for all animals. (scatter dot plot). Moreover, we performed additional CASA experiments to analyze in detail sperm motility (Figure 11A2-A3). Individual CASA parameters for motile sperm cells were extracted as requested by reviewer 3 and represented in a new graph (Fig 11 A2). 

      The expression of the reporter genes is unambiguous; however, better figures could have been presented to show cell type specificity. The DAPI staining is diffused, and it is challenging to understand where the basement membranes of the tubules are. For example, in Figures 7B3 and 7E3, the spermatogonia seems to be in the middle of the seminiferous tubule. The imaging was better for Figure 8. Suboptimal staining appears to lead to mislabeling of some germ cell populations. For example, in Supplementary Figure 4A3, the round spermatid label appears to be labeling spermatocytes. Also, in some instances, the authors seem to be confusing, elongating spermatids with spermatozoa, such as in the case of Supplementary Figures 4D3 and D4.

      Thanks for the comments, some spermatogenic cells were indeed mislabeled as you mentioned. We have therefore readjusted the labeling accordingly. We also changed spermatozoa to mature spermatids. The new sentence is now: “At the cellular level, fluorescence was detectable in germ cells (B1-B3) including Spermatogonia (Sg), Spermatocytes (Scytes),round Spermatids (RStids), mature spermatids (m-Sptids) and Sertoli cells (SC)”. Moreover, to indicate the localization of the basal membrane, we have also labelled myoid cells.

      The characterization of Armc2 expression could have been improved as well. The authors show a convincing expression of ARMC2 in a few spermatids/sperm using a combination of an anti-ARMC2 antibody and tubules derived from ARMC2 KO animals. At the minimum, one would have liked to see at least one whole tubule of a relevant stage.  

      Thanks for the remark. 

      We present now new images showing transversal section of seminiferous tubules as requested (see supp fig 6). In this new figure, it is clear that Armc2 is only expressed in spermatids. We have also added in this figure an analysis of the RNA-seq database produced by Gan's team (Gan, Wen et al. 2013), confirming that ArmC2 expression is predominantly expressed at the elongated spermatid stage. This point is now clearly indicated in the text.

      Overall, the authors show that electroporating mRNA can improve spermatogenesis as demonstrated by the generation of motile sperm in the ARMC2 KO mouse model. 

      Thank you

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Here, the authors inject naked mRNAs and plasmids into the rete testes of mice to express exogenous proteins - GFP and later ARMC2. This approach has been taken before, as noted in the Discussion to rescue Dmc1 KO infertility. While the concept is exciting, multiple concerns reduce reviewer enthusiasm. 

      Strengths: 

      The approach, while not necessarily novel, is timely and interesting.  Weaknesses: 

      Overall, the writing and text can be improved and standardized - as an example, in some places in vivo is italicized, in others it's not; gene names are italicized in some places, others not; some places have spaces between a number and the units, others not. This lack of attention to detail in the preparation of the manuscript is a significant concern to this reviewer - the presentation of the experimental details does cast some reasonable concern with how the experiments might have been done. While this may be unfair, it is all the reviewers have to judge. Multiple typographical and grammatical errors are present, and vague or misleading statements. 

      Thanks for the comment, we have revised the whole manuscript to remove all the mistakes. We have also added new experiments/figures to strengthen the message. Finally, we have substantially modified the discussion.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary: 

      The authors used a novel technique to treat male infertility. In a proof-of-concept study, the authors were able to rescue the phenotype of a knockout mouse model with immotile sperm using this technique. This could also be a promising treatment option for infertile men. 

      Strengths: 

      In their proof-of-concept study, the authors were able to show that the novel technique rescues the infertility phenotype in vivo. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Some minor weaknesses, especially in the discussion section, could be addressed to further improve the quality of the manuscript. 

      We have substantially modified the discussion, following the remarks of the reviewers.

      It is very convincing that the phenotype of Armc2 KO mice could (at least in part) be rescued by injection of Armc2 RNA. However, a central question remains about which testicular cell types have been targeted by the constructs. From the pictures presented in Figures 7 and 8, this issue is hard to assess. Given the more punctate staining of the DNA construct a targeting of Sertoli cells is more likely, whereas the more broader staining of seminiferous tubules using RNA constructs is talking toward germ cells. Further, the staining for up to 119 days (Figure 5) would point toward an integration of the DNA construct into the genome of early germ cells such as spermatogonia and/or possibly to Sertoli cells. 

      Thanks for the comment. We would like to recall the peculiar properties of the non-insertional Enhanced Episomes Vector (EEV) plasmid, which is a non-viral episome based on the Epstein-Barr virus (EBV: Epstein-Barr Virus). It allows the persistence of the plasmid for long period of time without integration. Its maintenance within the cell is made possible by its ability to replicate in a synchronous manner with the host genome and to segregate into daughter cells. This is due to the fact that EEV is composed of two distinct elements derived from EBV: an origin of replication (oriP) and an EpsteinBarr Nuclear Antigen 1 (EBNA1) expression cassette (Gil, Gallaher, and Berk, 2010).   The oriP is a locus comprising two EBNA1-binding domains, designated as the Family of Repeats (FR) and Dyad Symmetry (DS). The FR is an array of approximately 20 EBNA1-binding sites (20 repeats of 30 bp) with high affinity, while the DS comprises four lower-affinity sites operating in tandem (Ehrhardt et al., 2008). 

      The 641-amino-acid EBNA1 protein contains numerous domains. The N-terminal domains are rich in glycines and alanines, which enable interaction with host chromosomes. The C-terminal region is responsible for binding to oriP (Hodin, Najrana, and Yates, 2013). The binding of EBNA1 to the DS element results in the recruitment of the origin of replication. This results in the synchronous initiation of extra-chromosomal EEV replication with host DNA at each S phase of the cell cycle (Düzgüneş, Cheung, and Konopka 2018). Furthermore, EBNA1 binding to the FR domain induces the formation of a bridge between metaphase chromosomes and the vector during mitosis. This binding is responsible for the segregation of the EEV episome in daughter cells (Düzgüneş, Cheung, and Konopka 2018). It is notable that EEV is maintained at a rate of 90-95% per cell division.

      Because of the intrinsic properties of EEV described above, the presence of the reporter protein at 119 day after injection was likely due to the maintenance of the plasmid, mostly in Sertoli cells, and not to the DNA integration of the plasmid.

      Of note, the specificity of EEV was already indicated in the introduction (lines 124-128 clean copy). Nevertheless, we have added more information about EEV to help the readers.  

      Given the expression after RNA transfection for up to 21 days (Figure 4) and the detection of motile sperm after 21 days (Figure 11), this would point to either round spermatids or spermatocytes.  These aspects need to be discussed more carefully (discussion section: lines 549-574).

      We added a sentence to highlight that spermatids are transfected and protein synthetized at this stage and this question is discussed in details (see lines 677-684 clean copy).

      It would also be very interesting to know in which testicular cell type Armc2 is endogenously expressed (lines 575-591)

      Thanks for the remarks. We present now new images showing the full seminiferous tubules as requested by reviewer 1 (see supp fig 6). In this new figure, it is clear that Armc2 is only expressed in spermatids. We have also added in this figure an analysis of the RNA-seq database produced by Gan's team (Gan, Wen et al. 2013), confirming that Armc2 is predominantly expressed at the elongated spermatid stage. This point is now clearly indicated in the text. (lines 570-579 clean copy).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      The article is well-structured and easy to read. Nonetheless, there are typos and mistakes in some places that are distracting to the reader, such as the capitalization of the word "Oligo-" in the title of the manuscript, the use of the word "Materiel" in the title of the Materials and methods and the presence of space holders "Schorr staining was obtained from Merck (XXX)".  Thank you, we corrected the misspelling of "Materials and Methods" and corrected our error: "obtained from Merck (Darmstadt, Germany)". We also carefully corrected the manuscript to remove typos and mistakes.

      The discussion is too lengthy, with much repetition regarding the methods used and the results obtained. For example, these are two sentences from the discussion. "The vector was injected via the rete testis into the adult Armc2 KO mice. The testes were then electroporated." I would recommend shortening these passages.

      Thanks for your comments, we removed the sentences and we have substantially modified the discussion, following the remarks of the reviewers.

      The work is extensive, and many experiments have been done to prove the points made. However, a more in-depth analysis of critical experiments would have benefited the manuscript significantly. A more thorough analysis of sperm mobility and morphology using the CASA system would have been an initial step.

      In response to the observations made, additional CASA experiments and sperm motility analysis were conducted, as illustrated in Figure 11 (A2-A3). Individual CASA parameters for motile sperm cells were extracted as suggested and represented in a new graph (Fig 11 A2). We have observed significant differences between WT and rescued sperm. In particular, the VSL and LIN parameters were lower for rescued sperm. Nevertheless, these differences were not sufficient to prevent IVF, maybe because the curvilinear velocity (VCL) was not modified.

      In the case of ARMC2 localization, an analysis of the different stages of spermatogenesis to show when ARMC2 starts to be expressed. 

      Thanks for the remarks. This is an important remark pointed out by all reviewers. As explained above, we have performed more experiments. We present now new images showing transversal section of seminiferous tubules as requested (see supp fig 6). In this new figure, it is clear that Armc2 is only expressed in spermatid layers. We have also added in this figure an analysis of the RNA-seq database produced by Gan's team (Gan, Wen et al. 2013), confirming that ArmC2 expression is predominantly expressed at the elongated spermatid stage. This point is now clearly indicated in the text. (lines 575579 clean copy).

      Finally, exploring additional endpoints to understand the quality of the sperm generated, such as the efficiency of ICSI or sperm damage, could have helped understand the degree of the recovery.

      This point was underlined in public review. We paste here our answer: “To address this important point, the ability of sperm to produce embryos was therefore challenged by two different assisted reproduction technologies, that are IVF and ICSI. To increase the number of motile sperm for IVF experiments, we have injected both testes from one male. We also conducted intracytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI) experiments, using only rescued sperm, identified as motile sperm with a normal flagellum. The results of these new experiments have demonstrated that the rescued ARMC2 sperm successfully fertilized eggs and produced embryos at the two-cell stage by IVF and blastocysts by ICSI. These outcomes are presented in Figure 12.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      38,74 intracellular

      Thanks, we changed it accordingly: "Intracytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI) is required to treat such a condition, but it has limited efficacy and has been associated with a small increase in birth defects" and "such as intracytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI)".

      39 "limited efficacy" Versus what? And for what reason? "small increase in birth defects" - compared to what? 

      We changed to “… but it is associated with a small increase in birth defect with comparison to pregnancies not involving assisted conception.”

      40 Just thinking through the logic of the argument thus far - the authors lay out that there are people with OAT (true), ICSI must be used (true), ICSI is bad (not convincing), and therefore a new strategy is needed... so is this an alternative to ICSI? And this is to restore fertility, not "restore spermatogenesis"

      - because ICSI doesn't restore spermatogenesis. This logic flow needs to be cleaned up some

      Thanks we changed it accordingly: “restore fertility.”

      45 "mostly"?

      Thank you, we removed the word: “We show that mRNA-coded reporter proteins are detected for up to 3 weeks in germ cells, making the use of mRNA possible to treat infertility.”

      65 Reference missing. 

      We added the following reference Kumar, N. and A. K. Singh (2015). "Trends of male factor infertility, an important cause of infertility: A review of literature." J Hum Reprod Sci 8(4): 191-196.

      68 Would argue meiosis is not a reduction of the number of chromosomes - that happens at the ends of meiosis I and II - but the bulk of meiosis is doubling DNA and recombination; would re-word; replace "differentiation" with morphogenesis, which is much more commonly used:

      Thank you, we have changed the sentence accordingly: "proliferation (mitosis of spermatogonia), reduction of the number of chromosomes (meiosis of spermatocytes), and morphogenesis of sperm (spermiogenesis)".

      70 "almost exclusively" is an odd term, and a bit of an oxymoron - if not exclusively, then where else are they expressed? Can you provide some sense of scale rather than using vague words like "large", "almost", "several", "strongly" and "most...likely" - need some support for these claims by being more specific: 

      Thanks for the comment, we changed the sentence: "The whole process involves around two thousand genes, 60% of which are expressed exclusively in the testes."

      73 "severe infertility" is redundant - if they are infertile, is there really any more or less about it? I think what is meant is patients with immotile sperm can be helped by ICSI - so just be more specific... 

      We changed the transition : “Among infertility disorders, oligo-astheno-teratozoospermia  (OAT) is the most frequent (50 % (Thonneau, Marchand et al. 1991); it is likely to be of genetic origin. Spermatocytograms of OAT patients show a decrease in sperm concentration, multiple morphological defects and defective motility. Because of these combined defects, patients are infertile and can only conceive by IntraCytoplasmic Sperm Injection (ICSI). IntraCytoplasmic Sperm Injection (ICSI) can efficiently overcome the problems faced. However, there are …”

      75 "some" is vague - how many concerns, and who has them? Be specific!

      Thanks for the comment, we removed the word.

      76-7 Again, be specific - "real" has little meaning - what is the increased risk, in % or fold? This is likely a controversial point, so make sure you absolutely support your contention with data .

      77 "these"? There was only one concern listed - increased birth defects; and "a number" is vague - what number, 1 or 1,000,000? A few (2-3), dozens, hundreds? 

      Thanks for the comment, we have reworded the sentence: “Nevertheless, concerns persist regarding the potential risks associated with this technique, including blastogenesis defect, cardiovascular defect, gastrointestinal defect, musculoskeletal defect, orofacial defect, leukemia, central nervous system tumors, and solid tumors. Statistical analyses of birth records have demonstrated an elevated risk of birth defects, with a 30–40% increased likelihood in cases involving ICSI, and a prevalence of birth defects between 1% and 4%.” We have added a list of references to support these claims.

      79-81 So, basically transgenesis? Again, vague terms "widely" - I don't think it's all that widely used yet... and references are missing to support the statement that integration of DNA into patient genomes is widely used. Give specific numbers, and provide a reference to support the contention. 

      Thanks for the comment, we removed the word widely and add references.

      81-5 Just finished talking about humans, but now it appears the authors have switched to talking about mice - got to let the readers know that! Unless you're talking about the Chinese group that deleted CCR5 in making transgenic humans? 

      Your feedback is greatly appreciated. In response to your comments, the sentence in question has been amended to provide a more comprehensive understanding. Indeed, the text refers to experiences carried in mice. The revised wording is as follows: “Given the genetic basis of male infertility, the first strategy, tested in mice, was to overcome spermatogenic failure associated with monogenic diseases by delivery of an intact gene to deficient germ cells (Usmani, Ganguli et al. 2013). 

      84-5 "efficiently" and "high" - provide context so the reader can understand what is meant - do the authors mean the experiments work efficiently, or that a high percentage of cells are transfected? And give some numbers or range of numbers - you're asking the readers to take your word for things when you choose adjectives - instead, provide values and let the readers decide for themselves.

      Thanks for the comment, we have reworded the sentence: Gene therapy is effective in germ cells, as numerous publications have shown that conventional plasmids can be transferred into spermatogonia in several species with success, allowing their transcription in all cells of the germinal lineage (Usmani, Ganguli et al. 2013, Michaelis, Sobczak et al. 2014, Raina, Kumar et al. 2015, Wang, Liu et al. 2022).

      93 Reference at the end of the sentence "most countries"

      Thanks, we changed the sentence and added the reference: the new sentence is "… to avoid any eugenic deviations, transmissible changes in humans are illegal in 39 countries (Liu 2020)” (Liu, S. (2020). "Legal reflections on the case of genomeedited babies." Glob Health Res Policy 5: 24

      93-4 Odd to say "multiple" and then list only one. 

      Thanks for the comment, we have reworded the sentence: “Furthermore, the genetic modification of germ cell lines poses biological risks, including the induction of cancer, off-target effects, and cell mosaicism. Errors in editing may have adverse effects on future generations. It is exceedingly challenging to anticipate the consequences of genetic mosaicism, for instance, in a single individual. (Sadelain, Papapetrou et al. 2011, Ishii 2017).”

      97 Is this really a "small" change? Again, would use adjectives carefully - to this reviewer, this is not a small change, but a significant one! And "should be" is not altogether convincing

      Thanks for the comment, we have reworded the sentence: “Thanks to this change, the risk of genomic insertion is avoided, and thus there is no question of heritable alterations.”

      What chance is there of retrotransposition? Is there any data in the literature for that, after injecting millions of copies of RNA one or more might be reverse transcribed and inserted into the genome?

      This is certainly possible and is the putative origin for multiple intronless spermatid-expressed genes: 

      The expert poses an interesting question, but one that unfortunately remains unanswered at present. Most papers on mRNA therapy state that there is no risk concerning genomic integration, but no reference is given (for instance see mRNA-based therapeutics: looking beyond COVID-19 vaccines. Lancet. 2024 doi: 10.1016/S0140-6736(23)02444-3). This is an important question, which deserves to be evaluated, but is beyond the scope of this manuscript. Nevertheless is remaining very debating (Igyarto and Qin 2024).

      98 Odd to say "should be no risk" and then conclude with "there is no question" - so start the sentence with 'hedging', and then end with certainty - got to pick one or the other.

      Thanks for the comment, we have reworded the sentence

      99 "Complete" - probably not, would delete:

      We removed the word: “The first part of this study presents a characterization of the protein expression patterns obtained following transfection of naked mRNA coding for reporter genes into the testes of mice”

      101-2 Reference missing, as are numbers - what % of cases? 

      Thank you, we changed the sentence and added the reference: “Among infertility disorders, oligoastheno-teratozoospermia  (OAT) is the most frequent (50 % (Thonneau, Marchand et al. 1991)” Thonneau, P., S. Marchand, A. Tallec, M. L. Ferial, B. Ducot, J. Lansac, P. Lopes, J. M. Tabaste and A. Spira (1991). "Incidence and main causes of infertility in a resident population (1,850,000) of three French regions (1988-1989)." Hum Reprod 6(6): 811-816.

      103 Once again, the reference is missing:

      We have added these references: (Colpi, Francavilla et al. 2018) (Cavallini 2006)

      104-5 Awkward transition.

      Thanks, we changed the transition: “The first part of this study presents a characterization of the protein expression patterns obtained following transfection of naked mRNA coding for reporter genes into the testes of mice. The second part is to apply the protocol to a preclinical mouse model of OAT.”

      105 Backslash is odd - never seen it used in that way before

      Removed

      108 "completely infertile" is redundant;

      Thank you, we changed it accordingly: “Patients and mice carrying mutations in the ARMC2 gene present a canonical OAT phenotype and are infertile”.

      and is a KO mouse really "preclinical"? 

      The definition of preclinical research, is research involving the use of animals to ascertain the potential efficacy of a drug, procedure, or treatment. Preclinical studies are conducted prior to any testing in humans. Our KO mouse model has been shown to mimic human infertility. Indeed Armc2-/-mice exhibit a phenotype that is identical to that observed in humans. Our study is in line with this definition. For this reason, we have decided to maintain our current position and to use the term "preclinical" in the article. 

      110  Delete "sperm".

      Thank you, we changed it accordingly: “The preclinical Armc2 deficient (Armc2 KO) mouse model is therefore a valuable model to assess whether in vivo injection of naked mRNA combined with electroporation can restore spermatogenesis”

      111  "Easy"? Really? 

      We changed it accordingly: “We chose this model for several reasons: first, Armc2 KO mice are sterile and all sperm exhibit short, thick or coiled flagella [13].”

      112-3 "completely immobile" is redundant - either they are immobile or not.

      Thank you, we changed it accordingly: “As a result, 100 % of sperm are immobile, thus it should be easy to determine the efficacy of the technique by measuring sperm motility with a CASA system.”

      108-33 Condense this lengthy text into a coherent few sentences to give readers a sense of what you sought to accomplish, broadly how it was done, and what you found. This reads more like a Results section

      Thanks for the comment, we shortened the text.

      Materials and Methods 

      The sections appear to have been written by different scientists - the authors should standardize so that similar detail and formatting are used - e.g., in some parts the source is in parentheses with catalog number, in others not, some have city, state, country, others do not... the authors should check eLife mandates for this type of information and provide. 

      We are grateful for your feedback. We standardized the text, and if we had missed some, as outlined on the E-Life website, we can finish to format the article once it has been accepted for publication in the journal before sending the VOR.

      134 Misspelling

      We corrected the misspelling  

      142 Just reference, don't need to spell it out.

      Thanks, we changed it accordingly: “and the Armc2 KO mouse strain obtained by CRISPR-Cas9 (Coutton, Martinez et al. 2019). Experiments”

      150 What is XXX?

      We would like to express our gratitude for bringing this error to our attention. We have duly rectified the issue: “obtained from Merck (Darmstadt, Germany).”

      157-60 Are enough details provided for readers to repeat this if necessary? Doesn't seem so to this reviewer; if kits were followed, then can say "using manufacturer's protocol", or refer to another manuscript - but this is too vague. 

      Thanks, we change it accordingly: After expansion, plasmids were purified with a NucleoBond Xtra Midi kit (740410-50; Macherey-Nagel, Düren, Germany) using manufacturer's protocol.”

      165 Again, too few details - how was it purified? What liquid was it in?

      Thanks for the comment, the EEV plasmids were purified like all other plasmids. We change the text: “All plasmids,EEV CAGs-GFP-T2A-Luciferase,((EEV604A-2), System Bioscience, Palo Alto, CA, USA), mCherry plasmid ( given by Dr. Conti MD at UCSF, San Francisco, CA, USA) and EEV-Armc2-GFP plasmid (CUSTOM-S017188-R2-3,Trilink,San Diego, USA) were amplified by bacterial transformation” 

      170 Seems some words are missing - and will everyone know Dr. Conti by last name alone? Would spell out, and the details of the plasmid must either be provided or a reference given; how was amplification done? Purification? What was it resuspended in? 

      Thank for the remark, the mcherry plasmids were purified like all other plasmids. We change the text: “All plasmids,EEV CAGs-GFP-T2A-Luciferase,((EEV604A-2), System Bioscience, Palo Alto, CA, USA), mCherry plasmid ( given by Dr. Conti MD, UCSF, San Francisco, CA, USA) and EEV-Armc2-GFP plasmid (CUSTOM-S017188-R2-3,Trilink,San Diego, USA) were amplified by bacterial transformation”

      175 Again, for this plasmid provide more information - catalog number, reference, etc; how amplified and purified, what resuspension buffer?

      Thank you for the remark, as We mentioned, we add this sentence for the preparation: “All plasmids, EEV CAGs-GFP-T2A-Luciferase,((EEV604A-2), System Bioscience, Palo Alto, CA, USA), mCherry plasmid (given by Dr. Conti MD at UCSF, San Francisco, CA, USA) and EEV-Armc2-GFP plasmid (CUSTOMS017188-R2-3,Trilink,San Diego, USA) were amplified by bacterial transformation” and we add these sentence “The EEV-Armc2-GFP plasmid used for in vivo testes microinjection and electroporation was synthesized and customized by Trilink (CUSTOM-S017188-R2-3,San Diego, USA).”

      183 What sequence, or isoform was used? Mouse or human? 

      Thanks, we changed accordingly: “This non-integrative episome contains the mice cDNA sequences of Armc2 (ENSMUST00000095729.11)”

      186-7 Provide sequence or catalog number; what was it resolubilized in?

      Thanks we changed accordingly “the final plasmid concentration was adjusted to 9 μg μL-1 in water.” We provided the sequence of EEV-Armc2-GFP in supp data 6.

      207-219 Much better, this is how the entire section needs to be written! 

      237-240 Font

      Thanks for the comment, we changed it accordingly

      246 Cauda, and sperm, not sperm cells

      Thanks for the comment, we changed it accordingly

      255-6 Which was done first? Would indicate clearly.

      Thanks for the comment, we changed the sentence: “Adult mice were euthanized by cervical dislocation and then transcardiac perfused  with 1X PBS”

      281-2 Provide source for software - company, location, etc: 

      We changed it accordingly: FIJI software (Opened source software) was used to process and analyze images and Imaris software (Oxford Instruments Tubney Woods, Abingdon, Oxon OX13 5QX, UK) for the 3D reconstructions.  

      323 um, not uM. 

      Thanks for the comment, we changed our mistake: “After filtration (100 µm filter)”

      Results 

      369 Weighed.  

      Thanks for the comment, we changed our mistake: “the testes were measured and weighed”

      371 No difference in what, specifically?

      Thanks for the comment, we changed the sentence to: “No statistical differences in length and weight were observed between control and treated testes”

      375 "was respected"? What does this mean?

      Thanks for the comment, we changed the sentence to “The layered structure of germ cells were identical in all conditions”

      378  This is highly unlikely to be true, as even epididymal sperm from WT animals are often defective - the authors are saying there were ZERO morphological defects? Or that there was no difference between control and treated? Only showing 2-3 sperm for control vs treatment is not sufficient.

      Your observation that the epididymal spermatozoa from wild-type animals exhibited defective morphology is indeed true. The prevalence of these defects varies by strain, with an average incidence of 20% to 40% (Kawai, Hata et al., 2006; Fan, Liu et al., 2015). To provide a more comprehensive representation, we conducted a Harris-Shorr staining procedure and included a histogram of the percentage of normal sperm in each condition (new figure 2F4). Furthermore, Harris-Shorr staining of the epididymal sperm cells revealed that there were no discernible increases in morphological defects when mRNA and EEV were utilized, in comparison with the control. We add the sentence “At last, Harris-Shorr staining of the epididymal sperm cells demonstrated that there were no increases in morphological defects when mRNA and EEV were used in comparison with the control”.

      379  "safe" is not the right word - better to say "did not perturb spermatogenesis". 

      Thanks, we changed it accordingly: “these results suggest that in vivo microinjection and electroporation of EEV or mRNA did not perturb spermatogenesis”

      382-3 This sentence needs attention, doesn't make sense as written: 

      Thanks for the remark, we changed the sentence to: “No testicular lesions were observed on the testes at any post injection time”

      389  How long after injection? 

      Thanks for the comment, we changed the sentence to: “It is worth noting that both vectors induced GFP expression at one day post-injection”

      390  Given the duration of mouse spermatogenesis (~35 days), for GFP to persist past that time suggests that it was maintained in SSCs? How can the authors explain how such a strong signal was maintained after such a long period of time? How stable are the episomally-maintained plasmids, are they maintained 100% for months? And if they are inherited by progeny of SSCs, shouldn't they be successively diluted over time? And if they are inherited by daughter cells such that they would still be expressed 49 days after injection, shouldn't all the cells originating from that SSC also be positive, instead of what appear to be small subsets as shown in Fig. 3H2? Overall, this reviewer is struggling to understand how a plasmid would be inherited and passed through spermatogenesis in the manner seen in these results. 

      Thanks for the comment. 

      This point was already underlined in public review. We paste here our answer: “The non-insertional Enhanced Episomes Vector (EEV) plasmid is a non-viral episome based on the Epstein-Barr virus (EBV: Epstein-Barr Virus). Its maintenance within the cell is made possible by its ability to replicate in a synchronous manner with the host genome and to segregate into daughter cells. This is due to the fact that EEV is composed of two distinct elements derived from EBV: an origin of replication (oriP) and an Epstein-Barr Nuclear Antigen 1 (EBNA1) expression cassette (Gil, Gallaher, and Berk, 2010).   The oriP is a locus comprising two EBNA1-binding domains, designated as the Family of Repeats (FR) and Dyad Symmetry (DS). The FR is an array of approximately 20 EBNA1-binding sites (20 repeats of 30 bp) with high affinity, while the DS comprises four lower-affinity sites operating in tandem (Ehrhardt et al., 2008). 

      The 641-amino-acid EBNA1 protein contains numerous domains.The N-terminal domains are rich in glycines and alanines, which enable interaction with host chromosomes. The C-terminal region is responsible for binding to oriP (Hodin, Najrana, and Yates, 2013a). The binding of EBNA1 to the DS element results in the recruitment of the origin of replication. This results in the synchronous initiation of extra-chromosomal EEV replication with host DNA at each S phase of the cell cycle (Düzgüneş, Cheung, and Konopka 2018a). Furthermore, EBNA1 binding to the FR domain induces the formation of a bridge between metaphase chromosomes and the vector during mitosis. This binding is responsible for the segregation of the EEV episome in daughter cells (Düzgüneş, Cheung, and Konopka 2018b). It is notable that EEV is maintained at a rate of 90-95% per cell division.”

      Because of the intrinsic properties of EEV described above, the presence of the reporter protein at 119 day after injection was likely due to the maintenance of the plasmid, mostly in Sertoli cells, and not to the DNA integration of the plasmid.

      Of note, the specificity of EEV was already indicated in the introduction. Nevertheless, we have added more information about it to help the readers (lines 124-128 clean copy)  

      398 Which "cell types"? 

      Your feedback is greatly appreciated, and the sentence in question has been amended to provide a more comprehensive understanding. The revised wording is as follows: These results suggest that GFPmRNA and EEV-GFP targeted different seminiferous cell types, such as Sertoli cells and all germline cells, or that there were differences in terms of transfection efficiency.

      409 Why is it important to inject similar copies of EEV and mRNA? Wouldn't the EEV be expected to generate many, many more copies of RNA per molecule than the mRNAs when injected directly?? 

      We removed the word importantly. 

      415 How is an injected naked mRNA stably maintained for 3 weeks? What is the stability of this mRNA?? Wouldn't its residence in germ cells for 21 days make it more stable than even the most stable endogenous mRNAs? Even mRNAs for housekeeping genes such as actin, which are incredibly stable, have half-lives of 9-10 hours.

      We appreciate your inquiry and concur with your assessment that mRNA stability is limited.  It is our hypothesis that the source of the confusion lies in the fact that we injected mRNA coding for the GFP protein, rather than mRNA tagged with GFP. After a three-week observation period, we did not observe the mRNA, but we observed the expression of the GFP protein induced by the mRNA. To draw the reader's attention to this point, we have added the following sentence to the text “It is important to underline that the signal measured is the fluorescence emitted by the GFP. This signal is dependent of both the half-lives of the plasmid/mRNA and the GFP. Therefore, the kinetic of the signal persistence (which is called here expression) is a combination of the persistence of the vector and the synthetized protein. See lines 469-472 clean copy. 

      This being said, it is difficult to compare the lifespan of a cellular mRNA with that of a mRNA that has been modified at different levels, including 5’Cap, mRNA body, poly(A)tail modifications, which both increase mRNA stability and translation (see The Pivotal Role of Chemical Modifications in mRNA Therapeutics  (2022) https://doi.org/10.3389/fcell.2022.901510). This question is discussed lines 687698 clean copy

      467 "safely" should be deleted

      Thanks, we removed the word: “To validate and confirm the capacity of naked mRNA to express proteins in the testes after injection and electroporation”

      470  Except that apoptotic cells were clearly seen in Figure 2:

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their comment. We agree that the staining of the provided sections were of heterogenous quality. To address the remark, we carried out additional HE staining for all conditions, and we now present testis sections correctly stained obtained in the different condition in Fig. 2 and Supp. 7. Our observations revealed that the number of apoptotic cells remained consistent across all conditions.

      471  "remanence"?

      We appreciate your feedback and have amended the sentence to provide clear meaning. The revised wording is as follows: “The assessment of the temporal persistence of testicular mCherry fluorescent protein expression revealed a robust red fluorescence from day 1 post-injection, which remained detectable for at least 15 days (Fig. Supp. 3 B2, C2, and D2).”

      489 IF measures steady-state protein levels, not translation; should say you determined when ARMC2 was detectable. 

      Thanks for the remark, we changed the sentence to: “ By IF, we determined when ARMC2 protein was detectable during spermatogenesis.”

      491 Flagella

      Thanks for the comment, we changed our mistake: “in the flagella of the elongated spermatids (Fig 9A)”

      Discussion 

      The Discussion is largely a re-hashing of the Methods and Results, with additional background.

      Message stability must be addressed - how is a naked mRNA maintained for 21 days?

      As previously stated, it is our hypothesis that the source of the confusion lies in the fact that we injected mRNA coding for the GFP protein, rather than mRNA tagged with GFP. After a three-week observation period, we did not observe the mRNA, but we observed the synthetized GFP protein. This point and the stability of protein in the testis is now discussed lines 677-684 (clean copy).

      556 How do the authors define "safe"?

      Thanks for the comment, we changed the sentence to be clearer: “Our results also showed that the combination of injection and electroporation did not perturb spermatogenesis when electric pulses are carefully controlled”

      563 Synthesized

      Thanks, we changed it accordingly

      602 Again, this was not apparent, as there were more apoptotic cells in Fig. 2 - data must be provided to show "no effect".

      As previously stated, we carried out additional HE staining for all conditions, as can be observed in Fig. 2 . Our observations revealed that the number of apoptotic cells remained consistent across all conditions.

      629-30 This directly contradicts the authors' contention in the Introduction that ICSI was unsafe - how is this procedure going to be an advancement over ICSI as proposed, if ICSI needs to be used?? Why not just skip all this and do ICSI then?? Perhaps if this technique was used to 'repair' defects in spermatogonia or spermatocytes, then that makes more sense. But if ICSI is required, then this is not an advancement when trying to rescue a sperm morphology/motility defect.

      In light of the latest findings (Fig 12), we have revised this part of the discussion and this paragraph no longer exist.

      Nevertheless, to address specifically the reviewer’s remark, we would like to underline that ICSI with sperm from fertile donor is always more efficient than ICSI with sperm from patient suffering of OAT condition. Our strategy, by improving sperm quality, will improve the efficiency of ICSI and at the end will increase the live birth rate resulting from the first fresh IVF cycle.

      640-2 What is meant by "sperm organelles" And what examples are provided for sperm proteins being required at or after fertilization? 

      This paragraph was also strongly modified and the notion of protein persistence during spermatogenesis was discussed in the paragraph on fluorescent signal duration. See lines 698-705.

      651 "Dong team"??

      Thanks for the comment, we added the references. 

      Figure 2D2 - tubule treated with EEV-GFP appears to have considerably more apoptotic cells - this reviewer counted ~10 vs 0 in control; also, many of the spermatocytes appear abnormal in terms of their chromatin morphology - the authors must address this by staining for markers of apoptosis - not fair to conclude there was no difference when there's a very obvious difference! 

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their comment. This point was already addressed. As previously stated, we provide now new testis sections for all condition (see Fig. 2). Our observations revealed that the number of apoptotic cells remained consistent across all conditions.

      Figure 2D3 staining is quite different than D1-2, likely a technical issue - looks like no hematoxylin was added? Need to re-stain so results can be compared to the other 2 figures 

      As previously stated, we carried out additional HE staining for all conditions, and new images are provided, with similar staining. 

      Figure 3 - the fluorescent images lack any context of tubule structure so it is nearly impossible to get a sense of what cells express GFP, or whether they're in the basal vs adluminal compartment - can the authors outline them? Indicate where the BM and lumen are. 

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their comment. This figure provides actually a global view of the green fluorescent protein (GFP) expression at the surface of the testis. The entire testis was placed under an inverted epifluorescence microscope, and a picture of the GFP signal was recorded. For this reason, it is impossible to delineate the BM and the lumen. It should be noted that the fluorescence likely originates from different seminiferous tubules.

      Author response image 1.

      So, for Figure 3 if the plasmid is being uptaken by cells and maintained as an episome, is it able to replicate? Likely not. 

      Yes! it is the intrinsic property of the episome, see the detailed explanation provided above about the EEV plasmid

      So, initially, it could be in spermatogonia, spermatocytes, and spermatids. As time progressed those initially positive spermatids and then spermatocytes would be lost - and finally, the only cells that should be positive would be the progeny of spermatogonia that were positive - but, as they proliferate shouldn't the GFP signal decline? 

      Because EEV is able  to replicate in a synchronous manner with the host genome and to segregate into daughter cells at a level of 90% of the mother cell, the expected decline is very slow.

      And, since clones of germ cells are connected throughout their development, shouldn't the GFP diffuse through the intercellular bridges so entire clones are positive? Was this observed? 

      We did not perform IF experiments further than 7 days after injection, a time too short to observe what the reviewer suggested. Moreover, if at 1 day after injection, GFP synthesized from injected EEV was found in both germ cells and Sertoli cells (Fig 7), after one week, the reporter proteins were only observable in Sertoli cells. This result suggests that EEV is maintained only in Sertoli cells, thus preventing the observation of stained clones.

      Can these sections be stained for the ICB TEX14 so that clonality can be distinguished? Based on the apparent distance between cells, it appears some are clones, but many are not... 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion but we are not able to perform testis sectioning and costaining experiments because the PFA treatment bleaches the GFP signal. We also tested several GFP antibodies, but all failed.  

      Nevertheless, we were able to localize and identify transfected cells thank to the whole testis optical clearing, combined with a measure of GFP fluorescence and three-dimensional image reconstructions. 

      For Figure 4, with the mRNA-GFP, why does the 1-day image (which looks similar to the plasmidtransfected) look so different from days 7-21? 

      And why do days 7-21 look so different from those days in Fig 3? 

      Thank you for your feedback. It is an excellent question. Because of the low resolution of the whole testis epifluorescences imaging and light penetration issue, we decided to carry-out whole testis optical clearing and three-dimensional image reconstructions experiments, in order to get insights on the transfection process. At day 1, GFP synthesized from EEV injection was found in spermatogonia, spermatocytes and Sertoli cells (Fig 7).  After one week, the reporter protein synthesized from injected EEV was only observable in Sertoli cells.

      In contrast, for mRNA, on day 1 and day 7 post-injection, GFP fluorescent signal was associated with both Sertoli cells and germ cells. This explains why patterns between mRNA-GFP and EEV-GFP are similar at day 1 and different at day 7 between both conditions. 

      Why do the authors think the signal went from so strong at 21 to undetectable at 28? What changed so drastically over those 7 days?

      What is the half-life of this mRNA supposed to be? It seems that 21 days is an unreasonably long time, but then to go to zero at 28 seems also odd... Please provide some explanation, and context for whether the residence of an exogenous mRNA for 21 days is expected. 

      As previously stated, it is our hypothesis that the source of the confusion lies in the fact that we injected mRNA coding for the GFP protein, rather than mRNA tagged with GFP. After a three-week observation period, we did not observe the mRNA, but we observed the GFP protein produced by the mRNA. The time of observation of the reporter proteins expressed by the respective mRNA molecules (mCherry, luciferase, or GFP) ranged from 15 to 21 days. Proteins have very different turnover rates, with half-lives ranging from minutes to days. Half-lives depend on proteins but also on tissues. As explained in the discussion, it has been demonstrated that proteins involved in spermatogenesis exhibit a markedly low turnover rate and this explains the duration of the fluorescent signal. 

      The authors should immunostain testis sections from controls and those with mRNA and plasmid and immunostain with established germ cell protein fate markers to show what specific germ cell types are GFP+

      Thank you for your feedback. As previously mentioned, we were unable to perform testis sectioning and co-staining because the PFA treatment bleaches the GFP signal and because we were unable to reveal GFP with an GFP antibody, for unknown reasons.

      For the GFP signal to be maintained past 35 days, the plasmid must have integrated into SSCs - and for that to happen, the plasmid would have to cross the blood-testis-barrier... is this expected? 

      We are grateful for your observation. 

      First, as explained above, we do not think that the plasmid has been integrated. 

      Concerning the blood-testing barrier.  It bears noting that electroporation is a technique that is widely utilized in biotechnology and medicine for the delivery of drugs and the transfer of genes into living cells (Boussetta, Lebovka et al. 2009). This process entails the application of an electric current, which induces the formation of hydrophilic pores in the lipid bilayer of the plasma membrane (Kanduser, Miklavcic et al. 2009). The pores remain stable throughout the electroporation process and then close again once it is complete. Consequently, as electroporation destabilizes the cell membrane, it can also destabilize the gap junctions responsible of the blood-testis barrier. This was actually confirmed by several studies, which have observed plasmid transfection beyond the blood-testis barrier with injection into rete testis following electroporation (Muramatsu, Shibata et al. 1997, Kubota, Hayashi et al. 2005, Danner, Kirchhoff et al. 2009, Kanduser, Miklavcic et al. 2009, Michaelis, Sobczak et al. 2014).

      Figure 9 - authors should show >1 cell - this is insufficient; also, it's stated it's only in the flagella, but it also appears to be in the head as well. And is this just the principal piece?? And are the authors sure those are elongating vs condensing spermatids? Need to show multiple tubules, at different stages, to make these claims

      We have partly answered to this question in the public review; We pastehere  our answer

      “We present now new images showing the full seminiferous tubules as requested (see supp fig 6). In this new figure, it is clear that Armc2 is only expressed in spermatids. We have also added in this figure an analysis of the RNA-seq database produced by Gan's team (Gan, Wen et al. 2013), confirming that ArmC2 expression is predominantly expressed at the elongated spermatid stage. This point is now clearly indicated in the text.”

      Concerning the localization of the protein in the head, we confirm that the base of the manchette is stained but we have no explanation so far. This point is now indicated in the manuscript.

      Figure 10B2 image - a better resolution is necessary

      We are grateful for your feedback. We concede that the quality of the image was not optimal. Consequently, We have replaced it with an alternative.

      Figure 11 - in control, need to show >1 sperm; and lower-mag images should be provided for all samples to show population-wide effects; showing 1 "normal" sperm per group (white arrows) is insufficient: 

      We are grateful for your feedback. We conducted further experiments and provide now additional images in Supp. figure 8.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      In this study, Vilpreux et al. developed a microinjection/electroporation method in order to transfect RNA into testicular cells. The authors studied several parameters of treated testis and compared the injection of DNA versus RNA. Using the injection of Armc2 RNA into mice with an Armc2 knockout the authors were able to (partly) rescue the fertility phenotype. 

      Minor points. 

      Figure 6 + lines 553+554: might it be that the staining pattern primarily on one side of the testis is due to the orientation of the scissor electrode during the electroporation procedure and the migration direction of negatively charged RNA molecules (Figure 6)? 

      Your input is greatly appreciated. We concur that the observed peripheral expression is due to both the electroporation and injection. Accordingly, we have amended the sentence as follows: "The peripheral expression observed was due to the close vicinity of cells to the electrodes, and to a peripheral dispersal of the injected solution, as shown by the distribution of the fluorescent i-particles NIRFiP-180."

      Discussion of the safety aspect (lines 601-608): The authors state several times that there are no visible tissue changes after the electroporation procedure. However, in order to claim that this procedure is "safe", it is necessary to examine the offspring born after microinjection/electroporation. 

      Your input is greatly appreciated. Consequently, the term "safe" has been replaced with "did not perturb spermatogenesis" in accordance with the provided feedback. Your assertion is correct; an examination of the offspring born would be necessary to ascertain the safety of the procedure. Due to the quantity of motile sperm obtained, it was not possible to produce offspring through natural mating. However, novel Armc2-/--rescued sperm samples have been produced and in vitro fertilization (IVF) and intracytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI) experiments have been conducted. The results demonstrate that the Armc2-/--rescued sperm can successfully fertilize eggs and produce two-cell embryos by IVF and blastocysts by ICSI. These outcomes are visually represented in Figure 12. The development of embryos up to the blastocyst stage is a step in the right direction.

      The discussion section could be shortened. Lines 632-646 are largely a repetition of the introductory section. In addition, the Dong paper (ref. 25) may be interesting; however, this part could also be shortened (lines 647-676). This reviewer would prefer the authors to focus on the technique (different application sites and applied nucleotides) and proof of concept for (partial) phenotype rescue in the knockout mice. 

      Your contribution is highly valued. In light of your observations and the latest findings, we have substantially revised the discussion accordingly.

      Line 63: oocytes rather than eggs.

      We are grateful for your input, but we have decided to retain our current position and to use the term "eggs" rather than "oocytes" in our writing because the definition of an oocyte is a female gametocyte or germ cell involved in reproduction. In other words, oocyte corresponds to a germ cell inside the ovary and after ovulation become an egg.  

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This is an interesting and potentially important paper, which however has some deficiencies.

      Strengths:

      A significant amount of potentially useful data.

      Weaknesses:

      One issue is a confusion of thermal stability with solubility. While thermal stability of a protein is a thermodynamic parameter that can be described by the Gibbs-Helmholtz equation, which relates the free energy difference between the folded and unfolded states as a function of temperature, as well as the entropy of unfolding. What is actually measured in PISA is a change in protein solubility, which is an empirical parameter affected by a great many variables, including the presence and concentration of other ambient proteins and other molecules. One might possibly argue that in TPP, where one measures the melting temperature change ∆Tm, thermal stability plays a decisive or at least an important role, but no such assertion can be made in PISA analysis that measures the solubility shift.

      We completely agree with the insightful comment from the reviewer and we are very grateful that the point was raised. Our goal was to make this manuscript easily accessible to the entire scientific community, not just experts in the field. In an attempt to simplify the language, we likely also simplified the underlying physical principles that these assays exploit. In defense of our initial manuscript, we did state that PISA measures “a fold change in the abundance of soluble protein in a compound-treated sample vs. a vehicle-treated control after thermal denaturation and high-speed centrifugation.” Despite this attempt to accurately communicate the reviewer’s point, we seem to have not been sufficiently clear. Therefore, we tried to further elaborate on this point and made it clear that we are measuring differences in solubility and interpreting these differences as changes in thermal stability. 

      In the revised version of the manuscript, we elaborated significantly on our original explanation. The following excerpt appears in the introduction (p. 3):

      “So, while CETSA and TPP measure a change in melting temperature (∆TM), PISA measures a change in solubility (∆SM).  Critically, there is a strong correlation between ∆TM and ∆SM, which makes PISA a reliable, if still imperfect, surrogate for measuring direct changes in protein thermal stability (Gaetani et al., 2019; Li et al., 2020). Thus, in the context of PISA, a change in protein thermal stability (or a thermal shift) can be defined as a fold change in the abundance of soluble protein in a compoundtreated sample vs. a vehicle-treated control after thermal denaturation and high-speed centrifugation. Therefore, an increase in melting temperature, which one could determine using CETSA or TPP, will lead to an increase in the area under the curve and an increase in the soluble protein abundance relative to controls (positive log2 fold change). Conversely, a decrease in melting temperature will result in a decrease in the area under the curve and a decrease in the soluble protein abundance relative to controls (negative log2 fold change).”

      And the following excerpt appears in the results section (p. 4): 

      “In a PISA experiment, a change in melting temperature or a thermal shift is approximated as a

      significant deviation in soluble protein abundance following thermal melting and high-speed centrifugation. Throughout this manuscript, we will interpret these observed alterations in solubility as changes in protein thermal stability. Most commonly this is manifested as a log2 fold change comparing the soluble protein abundance of a compound treated sample to a vehicle-treated control (Figure 1 – figure supplement 1A).”

      We have now drawn a clear distinction between what we were actually measuring (changes in solubility) and how we were interpreting these changes (as thermal shifts). We trust that the Reviewer will agree with this point, as they rightly claim that many of the observations presented in our work, which measures thermal stability, indirectly, are consistent with previous studies that measured thermal stability, directly. Again, we thank the reviewer for raising the point and feel that these changes have significantly improved the manuscript. 

      Another important issue is that the authors claim to have discovered for the first time a number of effects well described in prior literature, sometimes a decade ago. For instance, they marvel at the differences between the solubility changes observed in lysate versus intact cells, while this difference has been investigated in a number of prior studies. No reference to these studies is given during the relevant discussion.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. Our aim with this paper was to test the proficiency of this assay in high-throughput screening-type applications. We considered these observations as validation of our workflow, but admit that our choice of wording was not always appropriate and that we should have included more references to previous work. It was certainly never our intention to take credit for these discoveries. Therefore, we were more than happy to include more references in the revised version. We think that this makes the paper considerably better and will help readers better understand the context of our study.  

      The validity of statistical analysis raises concern. In fact, no calculation of statistical power is provided.

      As only two replicates were used in most cases, the statistical power must have been pretty limited. Also, there seems to be an absence of the multiple-hypothesis correction.

      We agree with the reviewer that a classical comparison using a t-test would be underpowered comparing all log2 normalized fold changes. We know from the data and our validation experiments that stability changes that generate log2 fold changes of 0.2 are indicative of compound engagement. When we use 0.2 to calculate power for a standard two-sample t-test with duplicates, we estimated this to have a power of 19.1%. Importantly, increasing this to n=3 resulted in a power estimate of only 39.9%, which would canonically still be considered to be underpowered. Thus, it is important to note that we instead use the distribution of all measurements for a single protein across all compound treatments to calculate standard deviations (nSD) as presented in this work. Thus, rather than a 2-by-2 comparison, we are comparing two duplicate compound treatments to 94 other compound treatments and 18 DMSO vehicle controls. Moreover, we are using this larger sample set to estimate the sampling distribution. Estimating this with a standard z-test would result in a p-value estimate <<< 0.0001 using the population standard deviation. Additionally, rather than estimate an FDR using say a BenjaminiHochberg correction, we estimated an empirical FDR for target calls based on applying the same cutoffs to our DMSO controls and measuring the proportion of hits called in control samples at each set of thresholds. Finally, we note that several other PISA-based methods have used fold-change thresholds similar to, or less than, those employed in this work (PMID: 35506705, 36377428, 34878405, 38293219).  

      Also, the authors forgot that whatever results PISA produces, even at high statistical significance, represent just a prediction that needs to be validated by orthogonal means. In the absolute majority of cases such validation is missing.

      We appreciate this point and we can assure the reviewer that this point was not lost on us. To this point, we state throughout the paper that the primary purpose of this paper was to execute a chemical screen. Furthermore, we do not claim to present a definitive list of protein targets for each compound. Instead, our intention is to provide a framework for performing PISA studies at scale. In total, we quantified thousands of changes and feel that it would be unreasonable to validate the majority of these cases. Instead, as has been done for CETSA (PMID: 34265272), PISA (PMID: 31545609), and TPP (PMID: 25278616) experiments before, we chose to highlight a few examples and provide a reasonable amount of validation for these specific observations. In Figure 2, we show that two screening compounds—palbociclib and NVP-TAE-226—have a similar impact on PLK1 solubility as the two know PLK1 inhibitors. We then assay each of these compounds, alongside BI 2536, and show that the same compounds that impact the solubility of PLK1, also inhibit its activity in cell-based assays. Finally, we model the structure of palbociclib (which is highly similar to BI 2536) in the PLK1 active site. In Figure 4, we show that AZD-5438 causes a change in solubility of RIPK1 in cell- and lysate-based assays to a similar extent as other compounds known to engage RIPK1. We then test these compounds in cellbased assays and show that they are capable of inhibiting RIPK1 activity in vivo. Finally, in Figure 5, we show that treatment with tyrosine kinase inhibitors and AZD-7762 result in a decrease in the solubility of CRKL. We showed that these compounds, specifically, prevented the phosphorylation of CRKL at Y207. Next, we show that AZD-7762, impacts the thermal stability of tyrosine kinases in lysate-based PISA. Finally, we performed phosphoproteomic profiling of cells treated with bafetinib and AZD-7762 and find that the abundance of many pY sites is decreased after treatment with each compound. It is also worth stating that an important goal of this study was to determine the proficiency of these methods in identifying the targets of each compound. We do not feel that comprehensive validation of the “absolute majority of cases” would significantly improve this manuscript. 

      Finally, to be a community-useful resource the paper needs to provide the dataset with a user interface so that the users can data-mine on their own.

      We agree and are working to develop an extensible resource for this. Owing to the size and complexities there, that work will need to be included in a follow-up manuscript. For now, we feel that the supplemental table we provide can be easily navigated the full dataset. Indeed, this has been the main resource that we have been emailed about since the preprint was first made public. We are glad that the Reviewer considers this dataset to be a highly valuable resource for the scientific community.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Using K562 (Leukemia) cells as an experimental model, Van Vracken et. al. use Thermal Proteome Profiling (TPP) to investigate changes in protein stability after exposing either live cells or crude cell lysates to a library of anti-cancer drugs. This was a large-scale and highly ambitious study, involving thousands of hours of mass spectrometry instrument time. The authors used an innovative combination of TPP together with Proteome Integral Solubility Alternation (PISA) assays to reduce the amount of instrument time needed, without compromising on the amount of data obtained.

      The paper is very well written, the relevance of this work is immediately apparent, and the results are well-explained and easy to follow even for a non-expert. The figures are well-presented. The methods appear to be explained in sufficient detail to allow others to reproduce the work.

      We thank the reviewer. One of our major goals was to make these assays and the resulting data approachable, especially for non-experts. We are glad that this turned out to be the case. 

      Strengths:

      Using CDK4/6 inhibitors, the authors observe strong changes in protein stability upon exposure to the drug. This is expected and shows their methodology is robust. Further, it adds confidence when the authors report changes in protein stability for drugs whose targets are not well-known. Many of the drugs used in this study - even those whose protein targets are already known - display numerous offtarget effects. Although many of these are not rigorously followed up in this current study, the authors rightly highlight this point as a focus for future work.

      Weaknesses:

      While the off-target effects of several drugs could've been more rigorously investigated, it is clear the authors have already put a tremendous amount of time and effort into this study. The authors have made their entire dataset available to the scientific community - this will be a valuable resource to others working in the fields of cancer biology/drug discovery.

      We agree with the reviewer that there are more leads here that could be followed and we look forward to both exploring these in future work and seeing what the community does with these data.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work aims to demonstrate how recent advances in thermal stability assays can be utilised to screen chemical libraries and determine the compound mechanism of action. Focusing on 96 compounds with known mechanisms of action, they use the PISA assay to measure changes in protein stability upon treatment with a high dose (10uM) in live K562 cells and whole cell lysates from K562 or HCT116. They intend this work to showcase a robust workflow that can serve as a roadmap for future studies.

      Strengths:

      The major strength of this study is the combination of live and whole cell lysates experiments. This allows the authors to compare the results from these two approaches to identify novel ligand-induced changes in thermal stability with greater confidence. More usefully, this also enables the authors to separate the primary and secondary effects of the compounds within the live cell assay.

      The study also benefits from the number of compounds tested within the same framework, which allows the authors to make direct comparisons between compounds.

      These two strengths are combined when they compare CHEK1 inhibitors and suggest that AZD-7762 likely induces secondary destabilisation of CRKL through off-target engagement with tyrosine kinases.

      Weaknesses:

      One of the stated benefits of PISA compared to the TPP in the original publication (Gaetani et al 2019) was that the reduced number of samples required allows more replicate experiments to be performed. Despite this, the authors of this study performed only duplicate experiments. They acknowledge this precludes the use of frequentist statistical tests to identify significant changes in protein stability. Instead, they apply an 'empirically derived framework' in which they apply two thresholds to the fold change vs DMSO: absolute z-score (calculated from all compounds for a protein) > 3.5 and absolute log2 fold-change > 0.2. They state that the fold-change threshold was necessary to exclude nonspecific interactors. While the thresholds appear relatively stringent, this approach will likely reduce the robustness of their findings in comparison to an experimental design incorporating more replicates. Firstly, the magnitude of the effect size should not be taken as a proxy for the importance of the effect.

      They acknowledge this and demonstrate it using their data for PIK3CB and p38α inhibitors (Figures 2BC). They have thus likely missed many small, but biologically relevant changes in thermal stability due to the fold-change threshold. Secondly, this approach relies upon the fold-changes between DMSO and compound for each protein being comparable, despite them being drawn from samples spread across 16 TMT multiplexes. Each multiplex necessitates a separate MS run and the quantification of a distinct set of peptides, from which the protein-level abundances are estimated. Thus, it is unlikely the fold changes for unaffected proteins are drawn from the same distribution, which is an unstated assumption of their thresholding approach. The authors could alleviate the second concern by demonstrating that there is very little or no batch effect across the TMT multiplexes. However, the first concern would remain. The limitations of their approach could have been avoided with more replicates and the use of an appropriate statistical test. It would be helpful if the authors could clarify if any of the missed targets passed the z-score threshold but fell below the fold-change threshold.

      The authors use a single, high, concentration of 10uM for all compounds. Given that many of the compounds likely have low nM IC50s, this concentration will often be multiple orders of magnitude above the one at which they inhibit their target. This makes it difficult to assess the relevance of the offtarget effects identified to clinical applications of the compounds or biological experiments. The authors acknowledge this and use ranges of concentrations for follow-up studies (e.g. Figure 2E-F). Nonetheless, this weakness is present for the vast bulk of the data presented.

      We agree that there is potential to drive off-target effects at such high-concentrations. However, we note that the concentration we employ is in the same range as previous PISA/CETSA/TPP studies. For example, 10 µM treatments were used in the initial descriptions of TPP (Savitski et al., 2014) and PISA (Gaetani et al., 2019). We also note that temperature may affect off-rates and binding interactions (PMID: 32946682) potentiating the need to use compound concentrations to overcome these effects.

      Additionally, these compounds likely accumulate in human plasma/tissues at concentrations that far exceed the compound IC50 values. For example, in patients treated with a standard clinical dose of ribocicilb, the concentration of the compound in the plasma fluctuates between 1 µM and 10 µM. (Bao, X., Wu, J., Sanai, N., & Li, J. (2019). Determination of total and unbound ribociclib in human plasma and brain tumor tissues using liquid chromatography coupled with tandem mass spectrometry. Journal of pharmaceutical and biomedical analysis, 166, 197–204. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jpba.2019.01.017)

      The authors claim that combining cell-based and lysate-based assays increases coverage (Figure 3F) is not supported by their data. The '% targets' presented in Figure 3F have a different denominator for each bar. As it stands, all 49 targets quantified in both assays which have a significant change in thermal stability may be significant in the cell-based assay. If so, the apparent increase in % targets when combining reflects only the subsetting of the data. To alleviate this lack of clarity, the authors could update Figure 3F so that all three bars present the % targets figure for just the 60 compounds present in both assays.

      We spent much time debating the best way to present this data, so we are grateful for the feedback. Consistent with the Reviewer’s suggestion, we have included a figure that only considers the 60 compounds for which a target was quantified in both cell-based and lysate-based PISA (now Figure 3E). In addition, we included a pie chart that further illustrates our point (now Figure 3 – figure supplement 2A). Of the 60 compounds, there were 37 compounds that had a known target pass as a hit using both approaches, 6 compounds that had a known target pass as a hit in only cell-based experiments, and 6 compounds that had a known target pass as a hit in only lysate-based experiments.

      Within the Venn diagram, we also included a few examples of compounds that fit into each category. Furthermore, we highlighted two examples of compound-target pairs that pass as a hit with one approach, but not the other (Figure 3 – figure supplement 2B,C). We would also like to refer the reviewer to Figure 4D, which indicates that BRAF inhibitors cause a significant change in BRAF thermal stability in lysates but not cells. 

      Aims achieved, impact and utility:

      The authors have achieved their main aim of presenting a workflow that serves to demonstrate the potential value of this approach. However, by using a single high dose of each compound and failing to adequately replicate their experiments and instead applying heuristic thresholds, they have limited the impact of their findings. Their results will be a useful resource for researchers wishing to explore potential off-target interactions and/or mechanisms of action for these 96 compounds, but are expected to be superseded by more robust datasets in the near future. The most valuable aspect of the study is the demonstration that combining live cell and whole cell lysate PISA assays across multiple related compounds can help to elucidate the mechanisms of action.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      More specifically:

      P 1 l 20, we quantified 1.498 million thermal stability measurements.

      It's a staggering assertion, and it takes some reading to realize that the authors mean the total number of proteins identified and quantified in all experiments. But far from all of these proteins were quantified with enough precision to provide meaningful solubility shifts.

      We can assure the reviewer that we were not trying to deceive the readers. We stated ‘1.498 million thermal stability measurements.’ We did not say 1.498 million compound-specific thermal stability shifts.’ We assume that most readers will appreciate that the overall quality of the measurements will be variable across the dataset, e.g., in any work that describes quantitation of thousands of proteins in a proteomics dataset. In accordance with the Reviewer’s suggestion, we have weakened this statement. The revised version of the manuscript now reads as follows (p. 1): 

      “Taking advantage of this advance, we quantified more than one million thermal stability measurements in response to multiple classes of therapeutic and tool compounds (96 compounds in living cells and 70 compounds in lysates).”

      P 7 l 28. We observed a large range of thermal stability measurements for known compound-target pairs, from a four-fold reduction in protein stability to a four-fold increase in protein stability upon compound engagement (Figure 2A).

      PISA-derived solubility shift cannot be interpreted simply as a "four-fold reduction/increase in protein stability".

      We thank the Reviewer for highlighting this specific passage and agree that it was worded poorly. As such, we have modified the manuscript to the following (p. 8): 

      “We observed a large range of thermal stability measurements for known compound-target pairs, from a four-fold reduction in protein solubility after thermal denaturation to a four-fold increase in protein solubility upon compound engagement (Figure 2A).”

      P 8, l 6. Instead, we posit that maximum ligand-induced change in thermal stability is target-specific.

      Yes, that's right, but this has been shown in a number of prior studies.

      We agree with the reviewer and accept that we made a mistake in how we worded this sentence, which we regret upon reflection. As such, we have modified this sentence to the following:

      “Instead, our data appears to be consistent with the previous observation that the maximum ligandinduced change in thermal stability is target-specific (Savitski et al., 2014; Becher et al., 2016).”

      P 11 l 7. Combining the two approaches allows for greater coverage of the cellular proteome and provides a better chance of observing the protein target for a compound of interest. In fact, the main difference is that in-cell PISA provides targets in cases when the compound is a pro-drug that needs to be metabolically processed before engaging the intended target. This has been shown in a number of prior studies, but not mentioned in this manuscript.

      While our study was not focused on the issue of pro-drugs, this is an important point and we would be happy to re-iterate it in our manuscript. We thank the Reviewer for the suggestion and have modified the manuscript to reflect this point (p. 19): 

      “Cell-based studies, on the other hand, have the added potential to identify the targets of pro-drugs that must be metabolized in the cell to become active and secondary changes that occur independent of direct engagement (Savitski et al., 2014; Franken et al., 2015; Almqvist et al., 2016; Becher et al., 2016; Liang et al., 2022).”

      While we are happy to make this change, we also would like to point out that the reviewer’s assertions that, “the main difference is that in-cell PISA provides targets in cases when the compound is a prodrug that needs to be metabolically processed before engaging the intended target” also may not fully capture the nuances of protein engagement effectors in the cellular context. Thus, we believe it is important to highlight the ability of cell-based assays to identify secondary changes in thermal stability.  

      P 11 l 28. These data suggest that the thermal destabilization observed in cell-based experiments might stem from a complex biophysical rearrangement. That's right because it is not about thermal stability, but about protein solubility which is much affected by the environment.

      We agree that the readout of solubility is an important caveat for nearly every experiment in the family of assays associated with ‘thermal proteome profiling’. Inherently complex biophysical arrangements could affect the inherent stability and solubility of a protein or complex. Thus, we would be happy to make the following change consistent with the reviewer’s suggestion (p. 12): 

      “These data suggest that the decrease in solubility observed in cell-based experiments might stem from a complex biophysical rearrangement.”

      P 12 l 7 A). Thus, certain protein targets are more prone to thermal stability changes in one experimental setting compared to the other. Same thing - it's about solubility, not stability.

      We thank the Reviewer for the recommendation and have modified the revised manuscript as follows (p. 13):

      “Thus, certain protein targets were more prone to solubility (thermal stability) changes in one experimental setting compared to the other (Huber et al., 2015).”

      P13 l 15. While the data suggests that cell- and lysate-based PISA are equally valuable in screening the proteome for evidence of target engagement... No, they are not equally valuable - cell-based PISA can provide targets of prodrugs, which lysate PISA cannot.

      We have removed this sentence to avoid any confusion. We will not place any value judgments on the two approaches. 

      P 18 l 10. In general, a compound-dependent thermal shift that occurs in a lysate-based experiment is almost certain to stem from direct target engagement. That's true and has been known for a decade. Reference needed.

      We recognize this oversight and would be happy to include references. The revised manuscript reads as follows: 

      “In general, a compound-dependent thermal shift that occurs in a lysate-based experiment is almost certain to stem from direct target engagement (Savitski et al., 2014; Becher et al., 2016). This is because cell signaling pathways and cellular structures are disrupted and diluted. Cell-based studies, on the other hand, have the added potential to identify the targets of pro-drugs that must be metabolized in the cell to become active and secondary changes that occur independent of direct engagement (Savitski et al., 2014; Franken et al., 2015; Almqvist et al., 2016; Becher et al., 2016; Liang et al., 2022).”

      P 18 l 29. the data seemed to indicate that the maximal PISA fold change is protein-specific. Therefore, a log2 fold change of 2 for one compound-protein pair could be just as meaningful as a log2 fold change of 0.2 for another. This is also not new information.

      We again appreciate the Reviewer for highlighting this oversight. The revised manuscript reads as follows: 

      “Ultimately, the data seemed to be consistent with previous studies that indicate the maximal change in thermal stability in protein specific (Savitski et al., 2014; Becher et al., 2016; Sabatier et al., 2022). Therefore, a log2 fold change of 2 for one compound-protein pair could be just as meaningful as a log2 fold change of 0.2 for another.”

      P 19 l 5. Specifically, the compounds that most strongly impacted the thermal stability of targets, also acted as the most potent inhibitors. I wish this was true, but this is not always so. For instance, in Nat Meth 2019, 16, 894-901 it was postulated that large ∆Tm correspond to biologically most important sites ("hot spots") - the idea that was later challenged and largely discredited in subsequent studies.

      Indeed, we agree with the Reviewer that there may be no essential connection between these. Rather, we are simply drawing conclusions from observations within the presented dataset. 

      Saying nothing about the work presented in the paper that the reviewer notes above, the referenced definition is also more nuanced “…we hypothesized that ‘hotspot’ modification sites identified in this screen (namely, those significantly shifted relative to the unmodified, bulk and even other phosphomodiforms of the same protein) may represent sites with disproportionate effects on protein structure and function under specific cellular conditions.” Indeed, in the response to that work, Potel et al. (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41592-021-01177-5) “agree with the premise of the Huang et al. study that phosphorylation sites that have a significant effect on protein thermal stability are more likely to be functionally relevant, for example, by modulating protein conformation, localization and protein interactions.” 

      Anecdotally, we also speculate that if we observe proteome engagement for two compounds (let’s say two ATP-competitive kinase inhibitors) that bind in the same pocket (let’s say the ATP binding site) and one causes a greater change in solubility, then it is reasonable to assume that it is a stronger evidence and we see evidence supporting this claim in Figure 2, Figure 3, Figure 4, and Figure 5.

      It is also important to point out that previous work has also made similar points. This is highlighted in a review article by Mateus et al. (10.1186/s12953-017-0122-4). The authors state, “To obtain affinity estimates with TPP, a compound concentration range TPP (TPP-CCR) can be performed. In TPPCCR, cells are incubated with a range of concentrations of compound and heated to a single temperature.” In support of this claim, the authors reference two papers—Savitski et al., 2014 and Becher et al., 2016. We have updated this section in the revised manuscript (p. 20): 

      “While the primary screen was carried out at fixed dose, the increased throughput of PISA allowed for certain compounds to be assayed at multiple doses in a single experiment. In these instances, there was a clear dose-dependent change in thermal stability of primary targets, off-targets, and secondary targets. This not only helped corroborate observations from the primary screen, but also seemed to provide a qualitative assessment of relative compound potency in agreement with previous studies (Savitski et al., 2014; Becher et al., 2016; Mateus et al., 2017). Specifically, the compounds that most strongly impacted the thermal stability of targets, also acted as the most potent inhibitors. In order to be a candidate for this type of study, a target must have a large maximal thermal shift (magnitude of log2 fold change) because there must be a large enough dynamic range to clearly resolve different doses.”

      Also, the compound efficacy is strongly dependent upon the residence time of the drug, which may or may not correlate with the PISA shift. Also important is the concentration at which target engagement occurs (Anal Chem 2022, 94, 15772-15780).

      In our study, the time and concentration of treatment and was fixed for all compounds at 30 minutes and 10 µM, respectively. Therefore, we do not believe these parameters will affect our conclusions.  

      P 19 l 19. For example, we found that the clinically-deployed CDK4/6 inhibitor palbociclib is capable of directly engaging and inhibiting PLK1. This is a PISA-based prediction that needs to be validated by orthogonal means.

      As we demonstrate in this work, the PISA assays serve as powerful screening methods, thus we agree that validation is important for these types of studies. To this end, we show the following:  

      • Proteomics: Palbociclib causes a decrease in solubility following thermal melting in cells.

      • Chemical Informatic: Palbociclib is structurally similar to BI 2536.

      • Protein informatics: Modeling of palbociclib in empirical structures of the PLK1 active site generates negligible steric clashes. 

      • Biochemical: Palbociclib inhibits PLK1 activity in cells.

      We have changed this text to the following to clarify these points:

      “For example, we found that the clinically-deployed CDK4/6 inhibitor palbociclib has a dramatic impact on PLK1 thermal stability in live cells, is capable of inhibiting PLK1 activity in cell-based assays, and can be modelled into the PLK1 active site.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I am wondering why the authors chose to use K562 (leukaemia) cells in this work as opposed to a different cancer cell line (HeLa? Panc1?). It would be helpful if the authors could present some rationale for this decision.

      This is a great question. Two reasons really. First, they are commonly used in various fields of research, especially previous studies using proteome-wide thermal shift assays (PMID: 25278616, 32060372) and large scale chemical perturbations screens (PMID: 31806696). Second, they are a suspension line that makes executing the experiments easier because they do not need to be detached from a plate prior to thermal melting. We think this is a valuable point to make in the manuscript, such that non-experts understand this concept. We tried to communicate this succinctly in the revised manuscript, but would be happy to elaborate further if the Reviewer would like us to. 

      “To enable large-scale chemical perturbation screening, we first sought to establish a robust workflow for assessing protein thermal stability changes in living cells. We chose K562 cells, which grow in suspension, because they have been frequently used in similar studies and can easily be transferred from a culture flask to PCR tubes for thermal melting (Savitski et al., 2014; Jarzab et al., 2020).”

      I note that integral membrane proteins are over-represented among targets for anti-cancer therapeutics. To what extent is the membrane proteome (plasma membrane in particular) identified in this work? After examining the methods, I would expect at least some integral membrane proteins to be identified. Do the authors observe any differences in the behaviour of water-soluble proteins versus integral membrane proteins in their assays? It would be helpful if the authors could comment on this in a potential revision.

      We agree this is an important point when considering the usage of PISA and thermal stability assays in general for specific classes of therapeutics. To address this, we explored what effect the analysis of thermal stability/solubility had on the proportion of membrane proteins in our data (Author response image 1). Annotations were extracted from Uniprot based on each protein being assigned to the “plasma membrane” (07/2024). We quantified 1,448 (16.5% of total proteins) and 1,558 (17.3% of total proteins) membrane proteins in our cell and lysate PISA datasets, respectively. We also compared the proportion of annotated proteins in these datasets to a recent TMTpro dataset (Lin et al.; PMID: 38853901) and found that the PISA datasets recovered a slightly lower proportion of membrane proteins (~17% in PISA versus 18.9% in total proteome analysis). Yet, we note that we expect more membrane proteins in urea/SDS based lysis methods compared to 0.5% NP-40 extractions.

      Author response image 1.

      We were not able to find an appropriate place to insert this data into the manuscript, so we have left is here in the response. If the Reviewer feels strongly that this data should be included in the manuscript, we would be happy to include these data.  

      A final note: I commend the authors for making their full dataset publicly available upon submission to this journal. This data promises to be a very useful resource for those working in the field.

      We thank the Reviewer for this and note that we are excited for this data to be of use to the community.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      There is no dataset PDX048009 in ProteomeXchange Consortium. I assume this is because it's under an embargo which needs to be released.

      We can confirm that data was uploaded to ProteomeXchange.

      MS data added to the manuscript during revisions was submitted to ProteomeXchange with the identifier – PDX053138.

      Page 9 line 5 refers to 59 compounds quantified in both cell-based and lysate-based, but Figure 3E shows 60 compounds quantified in both. I believe these numbers should match.

      We thank the Reviewer for catching this. In response to critiques from this Reviewer in the Public Review, we re-worked this section considerably. Please see the above critique/response for more details. 

      Page 10, lines 26-28: It would help the reader if some of the potential 'artefactual effects of lysatebased analyses' were described briefly.

      We thank the Reviewer for raising this point. The truth is, that we are not exactly sure what is happening here, but we know that, at least, for vorinostat, this excess of changes in lysate-based PISA is consistent across experiments. We also do not see pervasive issues within the plexes containing these compounds. Therefore, we do not think this is due to a mistake or other experimental error. We hypothesize that the effect might result from a change in pH or other similar property that occurs upon addition of the molecule, though we note that we have previously seen that vorinostat can induce large numbers of solubility changes in a related solvent shift assays (doi: 10.7554/eLife.70784). We have modified the text to indicate that we do not fully understand the reason for the observation (p. 11):

      “It is highly unlikely that these three molecules actively engage so many proteins and, therefore, the 2,176 hits in the lysate-based screen were likely affected in part by consistent, but artefactual effects of lysate-based analyses that we do not fully understand (Van Vranken et al., 2021).”

      Page 24, lines 29-30 appear to contain a typo. I believe the '>' should be '<' or the 'exclude' should be 'retain'.

      The Reviewer is completely correct. We appreciate the attention to detail. This mistake has been corrected in the revised manuscript.  

      Page 25, lines 5-7: The methods need to explain how the trimmed standard deviation is calculated.

      We apologize for this oversight. To calculate the trimmed standard deviation, we used proteins that were measured in at least 30 conditions. For these, we then removed the top 5% of absolute log2 foldchanges (compared to DMSO controls) and calculated the standard deviation of the resulting set of log2 fold-changes. This is similar in concept to the utilization of “trimmed means” in proteomics data (https://doi.org/10.15252/msb.20145625), which helps to overcome issues due to extreme outliers in datasets. We have added the following statement to the methods to clarify this point (p. 27):

      “Second, for each protein across all cells or lysate assays, the number of standard deviations away from the mean thermal stability measurement (z-score) for a given protein was quantified based on a trimmed standard deviation. Briefly, the trimmed standard deviation was calculated for proteins that were measured in at least 30 conditions. For these, we removed the top 5% of absolute log2 foldchanges (compared to DMSO controls) and calculated the standard deviation of the resulting set of log2 fold-changes.”

      Page 25, lines 9-11 needs editing for clarity.

      We tested empirical hit rates for estimation of mean and trimmed standard deviation (trimmedSD) thresholds to apply, to maximize sensitivity and minimizing the ‘False Hit Rate’, or the number of proteins in the DMSO control samples called as hits divided by the total number of proteins called as hits with a given threshold applied. 

      Author response image 2.

      Hit calling threshold setting based on maximizing the total hits called and minimizing the False Hit Rate in cells (number of DMSO hits divided by the total number of hits).

      Author response image 3.

      Hit calling threshold setting based on maximizing the total hits called and minimizing the False Hit Rate in lysates (number of DMSO hits divided by the total number of hits).

      Figure 1 supplementary 2a legend states: '32 DMSO controls'. Should that be 64?

      We thank the Reviewer for catching our mistake. This has been corrected in the revised manuscript. 

      I suggest removing Figure 1 supplementary 3c which is superfluous as only the number it presents is already stated in the text (page 5, line 9).

      We thank the Reviewer for the suggestion and agree that this panel is superfluous. It has been removed from the revised manuscript.

      New data and tables added during revisions:  

      (1) Table 3 – All log2 fold change values for the cell-based screen. Using this table, proteincentric solubility profiles can be plotted (as in Figures 2D and others). 

      (2) Table 4 – All log2 fold change values for the lysate-based screen. Using this table, proteincentric solubility profiles can be plotted (as in Figures 2D and others). 

      (3) Figure 1 – Figure supplement 3H – Table highlighting proteins that pass log2 fold change cutoffs, but not nSD cutoffs and vice versa. 

      (4) Figure 2 – Panels H and I were updated with a new color scheme. 

      (5) Figure 3 – Updated main figure and supplement at the request of Reviewer 3. 

      • Figure 3E – Compares on-target hits for the cell- and lysate-based screens for all compounds for which a target was quantified in both screens. 

      • Figure 3 – Figure supplement 2 – Highlights on-target hits in both screens, exclusively in cells, and exclusively in lysates. 

      (6) Figure 5 – PISA data for K562 lysates treated with AZD-7762 at multiple concentrations.

      • Figure 5F

      • Figure 5 – Figure supplement 3A-C

      • Figure 5 – Source data 2

      (7) Figure 5 – Phosphoproteomic profiling of K562 cells treated with AZD7762 or Bafetinib. 

      • Figure 5G

      • Figure 5 – Figure supplement 4A-F

      • Figure 5 – Source data 3 (phosphoproteome)

      • Figure 5 – Source data 4 (associated proteome data)

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Wang et al investigated the evolution, expression, and function of the X-linked miR-506 miRNA family. They showed that the miR-506 family underwent rapid evolution. They provided evidence that miR-506 appeared to have originated from the MER91C DNA transposons. Human MER91C transposon produced mature miRNAs when expressed in cultured cells. A series of mouse mutants lacking individual clusters, a combination of clusters, and the entire X-linked cluster (all 22 miRNAs) were generated and characterized. The mutant mice lacking four or more miRNA clusters showed reduced reproductive fitness (litter size reduction). They further showed that the sperm from these mutants were less competitive in polyandrous mating tests. RNA-seq revealed the impact of deletion of miR-506 on the testicular transcriptome. Bioinformatic analysis analyzed the relationship among miR-506 binding, transcriptomic changes, and target sequence conservation. The miR-506-deficient mice did not have apparent effect on sperm production, motility, and morphology. Lack of severe phenotypes is typical for miRNA mutants in other species as well. However, the miR-506-deficient males did exhibit reduced litter size, such an effect would have been quite significant in an evolutionary time scale. The number of mouse mutants and sequencing analysis represent a tour de force. This study is a comprehensive investigation of the X-linked miR-506 miRNA family. It provides important insights into the evolution and function of the miR-506 family.

      The conclusions of this preprint are mostly supported by the data except being noted below. Some descriptions need to be revised for accuracy.

      L219-L285: The conclusion that X-linked miR-506 family miRNAs are expanded via LINE1 retrotransposition is not supported by the data. LINE1s and SINEs are very abundant, accounting for nearly 30% of the genome. In addition, the LINE1 content of the mammalian X chromosome is twice that of the autosomes. One can easily find flanking LINE1/SINE repeat. Therefore, the analyses in Fig. 2G, Fig. 2H and Fig. S3 are not informative. In order to claim LINE1-mediated retrotransposition, it is necessary to show the hallmarks of LINE1 retrotransposition, which are only possible for new insertions. The X chromosome is known to be enriched for testis-specific multi-copy genes that are expressed in round spermatids (PMID: 18454149). The conclusion on the LINE1-mediated expansion of miR-506 family on the X chromosome is not supported by the data and does not add additional insights. I think that the LINE1 related figure panels and description (L219-L285) need to be deleted. In discussion (L557558), "...and subsequently underwent sequence divergence via LINE1-mediated retrotransposition during evolution" should also be deleted. This section (L219-L285) needs to deal only with the origin of miR506 from MER91C DNA transposons, which is both convincing and informative.

      Reply: Agreed, the corresponding sentences were deleted.

      Fig. 3A: can you speculate/discuss why the miR-506 expression in sperm is higher than in round spermatids?

      Reply: RNAs are much less abundant in sperm than in somatic or spermatogenic cells (~1/100). Spermborne small RNAs represent a small fraction of total small RNAs expressed in their precursor spermatogenic cells, including spermatocytes and spermatids. Therefore, when the same amount of total/small RNAs are used for quantitative analyses, sperm-borne small RNAs (e.g., miR-506 family miRNAs) would be proportionally enriched in sperm compared to other spermatogenic cells. We discussed this point in the text (Lines 550-556).

      **Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this paper, Wang and collaborators characterize the rapid evolution of the X-linked miR-506 cluster in mammals and characterize the functional reference of depleting a few or most of the miRNAs in the cluster. The authors show that the cluster originated from the MER91C DNA transposon and provide some evidence that it might have expanded through the retrotransposition of adjacent LINE1s. Although the animals depleted of most miRNAs in the cluster show normal sperm parameters, the authors observed a small but significant reduction in litter size. The authors then speculate that the depletion of most miRNAs in the cluster could impair sperm competitiveness in polyandrous mating. Using a successive mating protocol, they show that, indeed, sperm lacking most X-linked miR-506 family members is outcompeted by wild-type sperm. The authors then analyze the evolution of the miR-506 cluster and its predicted targets. They conclude that the main difference between mice and humans is the expansion of the number of target sites per transcript in humans.

      The conclusions of the paper are, in most cases, supported by the data; however, a more precise and indepth analysis would have helped build a more convincing argument in most cases.

      (1) In the abstracts and throughout the manuscript, the authors claim that "... these X-linked miRNA-506 family miRNA [...] have gained more targets [...] " while comparing the human miRNA-506 family to the mouse. An alternative possibility is that the mouse has lost some targets. A proper analysis would entail determining the number of targets in the mouse and human common ancestor.

      Reply: This question alerted us that we did not describe our conclusion accurately, causing confusion for this reviewer. Our data suggest that although the sheer number of target genes remains the same between humans and mice, the human X-linked miR-506 family targets a greater number of genes than the murine counterpart on a per miRNA basis. In other words, mice never lost any targets compared to humans, but per the miR-506 family miRNA tends to target more genes in humans than in mice.

      We revised the text to more accurately report our data. The pertaining text (lines 490-508) now reads: “Furthermore, we analyzed the number of all potential targets of the miR-506 family miRNAs predicted by the aforementioned four algorithms among humans, mice, and rats. The total number of targets for all the X-linked miR-506 family miRNAs among different species did not show significant enrichment in humans (Fig. S9C), suggesting the sheer number of target genes does not increase in humans. We then compared the number of target genes per miRNA. When comparing the number of target genes per miRNA for all the miRNAs (baseline) between humans and mice, we found that on a per miRNA basis, human miRNAs have more targets than murine miRNAs (p<0.05, t-test) (Fig. S9D), consistent with higher biological complexity in humans. This became even more obvious for the X-linked miR-506 family (p<0.05, t-test) (Fig. S9D). In humans, the X-linked miR-506 family, on a per miRNA basis, targets a significantly greater number of genes than the average of all miRNAs combined (p<0.05, t-test) (Fig. S9D). In contrast, in mice, we observed no significant difference in the number of targets per miRNA between X-linked miRNAs and all of the mouse miRNAs combined (mouse baseline) (Fig. S9D). These results suggest that although the sheer number of target genes remains the same between humans and mice, the human X-linked miR-506 family targets a greater number of genes than the murine counterpart on a per miRNA basis.”

      We also changed “have gained” to “have” throughout the text to avoid confusion.

      (2) The authors claim that the miRNA cluster expanded through L1 retrotransposition. However, the possibility of an early expansion of the cluster before the divergence of the species while the MER91C DNA transposon was active was not evaluated. Although L1 likely contributed to the diversity within mammals, the generalization may not apply to all species. For example, SINEs are closer on average than L1s to the miRNAs in the SmiR subcluster in humans and dogs, and the horse SmiR subcluster seems to have expanded by a TE-independent mechanism.

      Reply: Agreed. We deleted the data mentioned by this reviewer.

      (3) Some results are difficult to reconcile and would have benefited from further discussion. The miR-465 sKO has over two thousand differentially expressed transcripts and no apparent phenotype. Also, the authors show a sharp downregulation of CRISP1 at the RNA and protein level in the mouse. However, most miRNAs of the cluster increase the expression of Crisp1 on a reporter assay. The only one with a negative impact has a very mild effect. miRNAs are typically associated with target repression; however, most of the miRNAs analyzed in this study activate transcript expression.

      Reply: Both mRNA and protein levels of Crisp1 were downregulated in KO mice, and these results are consistent with the luciferase data showing overexpression of these miRNAs upregulated the Crisp1 3’UTR luciferase activity. We agree that miRNAs usually repress target gene expression. However, numerous studies have also shown that some miRNAs, such as human miR-369-3, Let-7, and miR-373, mouse miR-34/449 and the miR-506 family, and the synthetic miRNA miRcxcr4, activate gene expression both in vitro (1, 2) and in vivo (3-6). Earlier reports have shown that these miRNAs can upregulate their target gene expression, either by recruiting FXR1, targeting promoters, or sequestering RNA subcellular locations (1, 2, 6). We briefly discussed this in the text (Lines 605-611).

      (4) More information is required to interpret the results of the differential RNA targeting by the murine and human miRNA-506 family. The materials and methods section needs to explain how the authors select their putative targets. In the text, they mention the use of four different prediction programs. Are they considering all sites predicted by any method, all sites predicted simultaneously by all methods, or something in between? Also, what are they considering as a "shared target" between mice and humans? Is it a mRNA that any miR-506 family member is targeting? Is it a mRNA targeted by the same miRNA in both species? Does the targeting need to occur in the same position determined by aligning the different 3'UTRs?

      Reply: Since each prediction method has its merit, we included all putative targets predicted by any of the four methods. The "shared target" refers to a mRNA that any miR-506 family member targets because the miR-506 family is highly divergent among different species. We have added the information to the “Large and small RNA-seq data analysis” section in Materials and Methods (Lines 871-882).

      (5) The authors highlight the particular evolution of the cluster derived from a transposable element. Given the tendency of transposable elements to be expressed in germ cells, the family might have originated to repress the expression of the elements while still active but then remained to control the expression of the genes where the element had been inserted. The authors did not evaluate the expression of transcripts containing the transposable element or discuss this possibility. The authors proposed an expansion of the target sites in humans. However, whether this expansion was associated with the expansion of the TE in humans was not discussed either. Clarifying whether the transposable element was still active after the divergence of the mouse and human lineages would have been informative to address this outstanding issue.

      Reply: Agreed. The MER91C DNA transposon is denoted as nonautonomous (7); however, whether it was active during the divergence of mouse and human lineages is unknown. To determine whether the expansion of the target sites in humans was due to the expansion of the MER91C DNA transposon, we analyzed the MER91C DNA transposon-containing transcripts and associated them with our DETs. Of interest, 28 human and 3 mouse mRNAs possess 3’UTRs containing MER91C DNA sequences, and only 3 and 0 out of those 28 and 3 genes belonged to DETs in humans and mice, respectively (Fig. S9E), suggesting a minimal effect of MER91C DNA transposon expansion on the number of target sites. We briefly discussed this in the text (Lines 511-518).

      Post-transcriptional regulation is exceptionally complex in male haploid cells, and the functional relevance of many regulatory pathways remains unclear. This manuscript, together with recent findings on the role of piRNA clusters, starts to clarify the nature of the selective pressure that shapes the evolution of small RNA pathways in the male germ line.

      Reply: Agreed. We appreciate your insightful comments.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors conducted a comprehensive study of the X-linked miR-506 family miRNAs in mice on its origin, evolution, expression, and function. They demonstrate that the X-linked miR-506 family, predominantly expressed in the testis, may be derived from MER91C DNA transposons and further expanded by retrotransposition. By genetic deletion of different combinations of 5 major clusters of this miRNA family in mice, they found these miRNAs are not required for spermatogenesis. However, by further examination, the mutant mice show mild fertility problem and inferior sperm competitiveness. The authors conclude that the X-linked miR-506 miRNAs finetune spermatogenesis to enhance sperm competition.

      Strengths:

      This is a comprehensive study with extensive computational and genetic dissection of the X-linked miR506 family providing a holistic view of its evolution and function in mice. The finding that this family miRNAs could enhance sperm competition is interesting and could explain their roles in finetuning germ cell gene expression to regulate reproductive fitness.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors specifically addressed the function of 5 clusters of X-link miR-506 family containing 19 miRNAs. There is another small cluster containing 3 miRNAs close to the Fmr1 locus. Would this small cluster act in concert with the 5 clusters to regulate spermatogenesis? In addition, any autosomal miR-506 like miRNAs may compensate for the loss of X-linked miR-506 family. These possibilities should be discussed.

      Reply: The three FmiRs were not deleted in this study because the SmiRs are much more abundant than the FmiRs in WT mice (Author Response image 1, heatmap version of Fig. 5C). Based on small RNA-seq, some FmiRs, e.g., miR-201 and miR-547, were upregulated in the SmiRs KO mice, suggesting that this small cluster may act in concert with the other 5 clusters and thus, worth further investigation. To our best knowledge, all the miR-506 family miRNAs are located on the X chromosome, although some other miRNAs were upregulated in the KO mice, they don’t belong to the miR-506 family. We briefly discussed this point in the text (Lines 635-638).

      Author response image 1.

      sRNA-seq of WT and miR-506 family KO testis samples.

      Direct molecular link to sperm competitiveness defect remains unclear but is difficult to address.

      Reply: In this study, we identified a target of the miR-506 family, i.e. Crisp1. KO of Crisp1 in mice, or inhibition of CRISP1 in human sperm (7, 8), appears to phenocopy the quinKO mice, displaying largely normal sperm motility but compromised ability to penetrate eggs. The detailed mechanism warrants further investigation in the future.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Lines 84-85: "Several cellular events are unique to the male germ cells, e.g., meiosis, genetic recombination, and haploid male germ cell differentiation (also called spermiogenesis)". This statement is not accurate. Please revise. Meiosis and genetic recombination are common to both male and female germ cells. They are highly conserved in both sexes in many species including mouse.

      Reply: Agreed. We have revised the sentence and it now reads: “Several cellular events are unique to the male germ cells, e.g., postnatal formation of the adult male germline stem cells (i.e., spermatogonia stem cells), pubertal onset of meiosis, and haploid male germ cell differentiation (also called spermiogenesis) (9)” (Lines 83-86).

      Lines 163-164: "we found that Slitrk2 and Fmr1 were syntenically linked to autosomes in zebrafish and birds (Fig. 1A), but had migrated onto the X chromosome in most mammals". This description is not accurate. Chr 4 in zebrafish and birds is syntenic to the X chromosome in mammals. The term "migrated" is not appropriate. Suggestion: Slitrk2 and Fmr1 mapped to Chr 4 (syntenic with mammalian X chromosome) in zebrafish and birds but to the X chromosome in most mammals.

      Reply: Agreed. Revised as suggested.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In the significance statement, the authors mention that the mutants are "functionally infertile," although the decrease in competitiveness is partial. I suggest referring to them as "functionally sub-fertile."

      Reply: Agreed. Revised as suggested.

      (2) I will urge the authors to explain in more detail how some figures are generated and what they mean. Some critical information needs to be included in various panels.

      (2a) Figure S1. The phastCons track does not seem to align as expected with the rest of the figure. The highest conservation peak is only present in humans, and the sequence conserved in the sea turtle has the lowest phastCons score. I was expecting the opposite from the explanation.

      Reply: The tracks for phyloP and phastCons are the scores for all 100 species, whereas the tracks with the species names on the left are the corresponding sequences aligned to the human genome. We have revised our figure to make it clearer.

      (2b) Figure 2A and Figure S2C. Although all the functional analysis of the manuscript has been done in mice, the alignments showing sequence conservation do not include the murine miRNAs. Please include the mouse miRNAs in these panels.

      Reply: The mouse has Mir-506-P7 with the conserved miRNA-3P seed region, which was included in the lower panel in Figure S2C. However, mice do not have Mir-506-P6, which may have been lost or too divergent to be recognized during the evolution and thus, were not included in Figure 2A and the upper panel in Figure S2C.

      (2c) Figure S7H. The panel could be easier to read.

      Reply: Agreed. We combined all the same groups and turned Figure S7H (now Figure S6H) into a heatmap.

      (2d) The legend of Figure 6G reads, "The number of target sites within individual target mRNAs in both humans and mice ." Can the author explain why the value 1 of the human "Number of target sites" is connected to virtually all the "Number of target sites" values in mice?

      Reply: Sorry for the confusion. For example, for gene 1, we have 1 target site in the human and 1 target site in the mouse; but for gene 2, we have 1 target site in the human and multiple sites in the mouse; therefore, the value 1 is connected to more than one value in the mouse.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      CRISP1 and EGR1 protein localization in WT and mutant sperm by immunostaining would be helpful.

      Reply: Agreed. We performed immunostaining for CRISP1 on WT sperm, and the new results are presented in Figure S8D. CRISP1 seems mainly expressed in the principal piece and head of sperm.

      The detailed description of the generation of various mutant lines should be included in the Methods.

      Reply: We added more details on the generation of knockout lines in the Materials and Methods (686701).

      References:

      (1) S. Vasudevan, Y. Tong, J. A. Steitz, Switching from repression to activation: microRNAs can upregulate translation. Science 318, 1931-1934 (2007).

      (2) R. F. Place, L. C. Li, D. Pookot, E. J. Noonan, R. Dahiya, MicroRNA-373 induces expression of genes with complementary promoter sequences. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 105, 1608-1613 (2008).

      (3) Z. Wang et al., X-linked miR-506 family miRNAs promote FMRP expression in mouse spermatogonia. EMBO Rep 21, e49024 (2020).

      (4) S. Yuan et al., Motile cilia of the male reproductive system require miR-34/miR-449 for development and function to generate luminal turbulence. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 116, 35843593 (2019).

      (5) S. Yuan et al., Oviductal motile cilia are essential for oocyte pickup but dispensable for sperm and embryo transport. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 118 (2021).

      (6) M. Guo et al., Uncoupling transcription and translation through miRNA-dependent poly(A) length control in haploid male germ cells. Development 149 (2022).

      (7) V. G. Da Ros et al., Impaired sperm fertilizing ability in mice lacking Cysteine-RIch Secretory Protein 1 (CRISP1). Dev Biol 320, 12-18 (2008).

      (8) J. A. Maldera et al., Human fertilization: epididymal hCRISP1 mediates sperm-zona pellucida binding through its interaction with ZP3. Mol Hum Reprod 20, 341-349 (2014).

      (9) L. Hermo, R. M. Pelletier, D. G. Cyr, C. E. Smith, Surfing the wave, cycle, life history, and genes/proteins expressed by testicular germ cells. Part 1: background to spermatogenesis, spermatogonia, and spermatocytes. Microsc Res Tech 73, 241-278 (2010).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study seeks to establish accurate computational models to explore the role of hydrodynamic interactions on energy savings and spatial patterns in fish schools. Specifically, the authors consider a system of (one degree-of-freedom) flapping airfoils that passively position themselves with respect to the streamwise direction, while oscillating at the same frequency and amplitude, with a given phase lag and at a constant cross-stream distance. By parametrically varying the phase lag and the cross-stream distance, they systematically explore the stability and energy costs of emergent configurations. Computational findings are leveraged to distill insights into universal relationships and clarify the role of the wake of the leading foil.

      We would like to thank the referee for their careful read of the manuscript and for their constructive feedback. We appreciate it.

      Strengths:

      (1) The use of multiple computational models (computational fluid dynamics, CFD, for full Navier-Stokes equations and computationally efficient inviscid vortex sheet, VS, model) offers an extra degree of reliability of the observed findings and backing to the use of simplified models for future research in more complex settings.

      (2) The systematic assessment of the stability and energy savings in multiple configurations of pairs and larger ensembles of flapping foils is an important addition to the literature.

      (3) The discovery of a linear phase-distance relationship in the formation attained by pairs of flapping foils is a significant contribution, which helps compare different experimental observations in the literature.

      (4) The observation of a critical size effect for in-line formations of larger, above which cohesion and energetic benefits are lost at once, is a new discovery in the field.

      Thank you for this list of strength – we are delighted that these ideas were clearly communicated in our manuscript.

      Note that Newbolt et al. PNAS, 2019 reported distance as a function of phase for pairs of flapping hydrofoils, and Li et al, Nat. Comm., 2020 also reported phase-distance relationship in robotic and biological fish (calling it Vortex Phase Matching). We compiled their results, together with our and other numerical and experimental results, showing that the linear distance-phase relationship is universal.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The extent to which observations on one-degree-of-freedom flapping foils could translate to real fish schools is presently unclear so some of the conclusions on live fish schools are likely to be overstated and would benefit from some more biological framing.

      Thank you for bringing up this point. Indeed, flapping foils that are free to translate in both the x- and y-directions and rotate in the x-y plane could drift apart in the y-direction. However, this drift occurs at a longer time scale than the forward swimming motion; it is much slower. For this reason, we feel justified to ignore it for the purpose of this study, especially that the pairwise equilibria in the swimming x-direction are reached at a faster time scale.

      Below, we include two snapshots taken from published work from the group of Petros Koumoutsakos (Gazzola et al, SIAM 2014). The figures show, respectively, a pair and a group of five undulating swimmers, free to move and rotate in the x-y plane. The evolution of the two and five swimmers is computed in the absence of any control. The lateral drift is clearly sub-dominant to the forward motion. Similar results were reported in Verma et al, PNAS 2018.

      These results are independent on the details of the flow interactions model. For example, similar lateral drift is observed using the dipole model dipole model (Kanso & Tsang, FDR 2014, Tsang & Kanso, JNLS 2023).

      Another reason why we feel justified to ignore these additional degrees of freedom is the following: we assume a live fish or robotic vehicle would have feedback control mechanisms that correct for such drift. Given that it is a slowly-growing drift, we hypothesize that the organism or robot would have sufficient time to respond and correct its course.

      Indeed, in Zhu et al. 2022, an RL controller, which drives an individual fish-like swimmer to swim at a given speed and direction, when applied to pairs of swimmers, resulted in the pair "passively" forming a stable school without any additional information about each other.

      We edited the main manuscript in page 4 of the manuscript to include reference to the work cited here and to explain the reasons for ignoring the lateral drift.

      Citations:  

      Gazzola, M., Hejazialhosseini, B., & Koumoutsakos, P. (2014). Reinforcement learning and wavelet adapted vortex methods for simulations of self-propelled swimmersSIAM Journal on Scientific Computing36(3), B622-B639. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1137/130943078

      Verma, S., Novati, G., & Koumoutsakos, P. (2018). Efficient collective swimming by harnessing vortices through deep reinforcement learningProceedings of the National Academy of Sciences115(23), 5849-5854. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1800923115

      Tsang, A. C. H. & Kanso, E., (2013). Dipole Interactions in Doubly Periodic DomainsJournal of Nonlinear Science 23 (2013): 971-991. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1007/s00332-013-9174-5

      Kanso, E., & Tsang, A. C. H. (2014). Dipole models of self-propelled bodiesFluid Dynamics Research46(6), 061407. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1088/0169-5983/46/6/061407

      Zhu, Y., Pang, J. H., & Tian, F. B. (2022). Stable schooling formations emerge from the combined effect of the active control and passive self-organizationFluids7(1), 41. DOI: https://doi.org/10.3390/fluids7010041

      Author response image 1.

      Antiphase self-propelled anguilliform swimmers. (a) – (d) Wavelet adapted vorticity fields at, respectively, t = T, t = 4T, t = 10T. (e) Absolute normalized velocities |U|/L. (f) Swimmers’ centre of mass trajectories.

      Author response image 2.

      Parallel schooling formation. (a) – (d) wavelet adapted vorticity fields at, respectively, t = T, t = 4T, t = 7T, t = 10T. (e) Absolute normalized velocities |U|/L. (f) Swimmers’ center of mass trajectories.

      (2) The analysis of non-reciprocal coupling is not as novel as the rest of the study and potentially not as convincing due to the chosen linear metric of interaction (that is, the flow agreement).

      We thank the referee for this candid and constructive feedback. In fact, we view this aspect of the study as most “revolutionary” because it provides a novel approach to pre-computing the locations of stable equilibria even without doing expensive all-to-all coupled simulations or experiments.

      Basically, the idea is the following: you give me a flow field, it doesn’t matter how you obtained it, whether from simulations or experimentally, and I can tell you at what locations in this flow field a virtual flapping swimmer would be stable and save hydrodynamic energy!

      In the revised version, we changed page 3 and 7 in main text, and added a new section “Diagnostic tools” in SI to better illustrate this.

      Overall, this is a rigorous effort on a critical topic: findings of the research can offer important insight into the hydrodynamics of fish schooling, stimulating interdisciplinary research at the interface of computational fluid mechanics and biology.

      We thank the referee again for their careful read of the manuscript and their constructive feedback.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The document "Mapping spatial patterns to energetic benefits in groups of flow-coupled swimmers" by Heydari et al. uses several types of simulations and models to address aspects of stability of position and power consumption in few-body groups of pitching foils. I think the work has the potential to be a valuable and timely contribution to an important subject area. The supporting evidence is largely quite convincing, though some details could raise questions, and there is room for improvement in the presentation. My recommendations are focused on clarifying the presentation and perhaps spurring the authors to assess additional aspects:

      We would like to thank the referee for their careful read of the manuscript and for their constructive feedback. We appreciate it.

      (1) Why do the authors choose to set the swimmers free only in the propulsion direction? I can understand constraining all the positions/orientations for investigating the resulting forces and power, and I can also understand the value of allowing the bodies to be fully free in x, y, and their orientation angle to see if possible configurations spontaneously emerge from the flow interactions. But why constrain some degrees of freedom and not others? What's the motivation, and what's the relevance to animals, which are fully free?

      We would like to thank the referee for raising this point. It is similar to the point raised above by the first referee. As explained above the reason is the following: in freely-swimming, hydrodynamically-interacting “fish,” the lateral drift is sub-dominant to the forward swimming motion. Therefore, we ignore it in the model. Please see our detailed response above for further clarification, and see changes in page 4 in the main manuscript.

      (2) The model description in Eq. (1) and the surrounding text is confusing. Aren't the authors computing forces via CFD or the VS method and then simply driving the propulsive dynamics according to the net horizontal force? It seems then irrelevant to decompose things into thrust and drag, and it seems irrelevant to claim that the thrust comes from pressure and the drag from viscous effects. The latter claim may in fact be incorrect since the body has a shape and the normal and tangential components of the surface stress along the body may be complex.

      Thank you for pointing this out! It is indeed confusing.

      In the CFD simulations, we are computing the net force in the swimming x-direction direction by integrating using the definition of force density in relation to the stress tensor. There is no ambiguity here.

      In the VS simulations, however, we are computing the net force in the swimming x-direction by integrating the pressure jump across a plate of zero thickness. There is no viscous drag. Viscous drag is added by hand, so-to-speak. This method for adding viscous drag in the context of the VS model is not new, it has been used before in the literature as explained in the SI section “Vortex sheet (VS) model” (pages 30 and 31).

      .

      (3) The parameter taudiss in the VS simulations takes on unusual values such as 2.45T, making it seem like this value is somehow very special, and perhaps 2.44 or 2.46 would lead to significantly different results. If the value is special, the authors should discuss and assess it. Otherwise, I recommend picking a round value, like 2 or 3, which would avoid distraction.

      Response: The choice of dissipation time is both to model viscous effect and reduce computational complexity. Introducing it is indeed introduces forcing to the simulation. Round value, like 2 or 3, is equal to an integer multiple of the flapping period, which is normalized to T=1, Therefore, an integer value of  would cause forcing at the resonant frequency and lead to computational blow up. To avoid this effect, a parameter choice of  = 2.45, 2.44 or 2.46 would be fine and would lead to small perturbation to the overall simulation, compared to no dissipation at all. This effect is studied in detail in the following published work from our group:

      Huang, Y., Ristroph, L., Luhar, M., & Kanso, E. (2018). Bistability in the rotational motion of rigid and flexible flyers. Journal of Fluid Mechanics849, 1043-1067. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/jfm.2018.446

      (4) Some of the COT plots/information were difficult to interpret because the correspondence of beneficial with the mathematical sign was changing. For example, DeltaCOT as introduced on p. 5 is such that negative indicates bad energetics as compared to a solo swimmer. But elsewhere, lower or more negative COT is good in terms of savings. Given the many plots, large amounts of data, and many quantities being assessed, the paper needs a highly uniform presentation to aid the reader.

      Thank you for pointing this out! We updated Figures 3,6 as suggested.

      (5) I didn't understand the value of the "flow agreement parameter," and I didn't understand the authors' interpretation of its significance. Firstly, it would help if this and all other quantities were given explicit definitions as complete equations (including normalization). As I understand it, the quantity indicates the match of the flow velocity at some location with the flapping velocity of a "ghost swimmer" at that location. This does not seem to be exactly relevant to the equilibrium locations. In particular, if the match were perfect, then the swimmer would generate no relative flow and thus no thrust, meaning such a location could not be an equilibrium. So, some degree of mismatch seems necessary. I believe such a mismatch is indeed present, but the plots such as those in Figure 4 may disguise the effect. The color bar is saturated to the point of essentially being three tones (blue, white, red), so we cannot see that the observed equilibria are likely between the max and min values of this parameter.

      Thank you for pointing this out! You are correct in your understanding of the flow agreement parameter, but not in your interpretation.

      Basically, “if the match were perfect, then the swimmer would generate no relative flow and thus no thrust,” means that “such a location could not be is an equilibrium.” Let me elaborate. An equilibrium is one at which the net thrust force is zero. The equilibrium is stable if the slope of the thrust force is negative. Ideally, this is what maximizing the flow agreement parameter would produce.

      For example, consider an ideal fluid where the flow velocity is form  in vertical direction. Consider a “ghost swimmer” heaving at a velocity  . Under this scenario, flow agreement and thrust parameters are

      Let’s now consider a balance of forces on the “ghost swimmer.” The ghost swimmer is in relative equilibrium if and only if:

      It gives us

      We then consider stability at this equilibrium by calculating the derivative of thrust parameter over phase

      The corresponding values at equilibria are

      Thus, when taking the positive which means the equilibria is a stable fixed point. We included this analysis in a new section in the SI page 32.

      (6) More generally, and related to the above, I am favorable towards the authors' attempts to find approximate flow metrics that could be used to predict the equilibrium positions and their stability, but I think the reasoning needs to be more solid. It seems the authors are seeking a parameter that can indicate equilibrium and another that can indicate stability. Can they clearly lay out the motivation behind any proposed metrics, and clearly present complete equations for their definitions? Further, is there a related power metric that can be appropriately defined and which proves to be useful?

      Thank you – these are excellent suggestions. Indeed, we needed to better explain the motivation and equations. Perhaps the main idea for these metrics can be best understood when explained in the context of the simpler particle model, which we now do in the SI and explain the main text.

      (7) Why do the authors not carry out CFD simulations on the larger groups? Some explanations should be given, or some corresponding CFD simulations should be carried out. It would be interesting if CFD simulations were done and included, especially for the in-line case of many swimmers. This is because the results seem to be quite nuanced and dependent on many-body effects beyond nearest-neighbor interactions. It would certainly be comforting to see something similar happen in CFD.

      We are using a open-source version of the Immersed Boundary Method that is not specifically optimized for many interacting swimmers. Therefore, the computational cost of performing CFD simulations for more swimmers is high. Therefore, we used the CFD simulations sporadically with fewer simmers (2 or 3) and we performed systematic simulations in the context of the VS model.

      For the same Reynolds number in Figure 1, we simulated three and four swimmers in CFD: three swimmers forms a stable formation, four swimmers don’t, consistent with the VS model, with the forth swimmer colliding with the third one. Results are included in the SI figure 8 of the main text.

      (8) Related to the above, the authors should discuss seemingly significant differences in their results for long in-line formations as compared to the CFD work of Peng et al. [48]. That work showed apparently stable groups for numbers of swimmers quite larger than that studied here. Why such a qualitatively different result, and how should we interpret these differences regarding the more general issue of the stability of tandem groups?

      Thank you for bringing up this important comparison. Peng et al. [48] (Hydrodynamic schooling of multiple self-propelled flapping plates) studied inline configuration of flapping airfoils at Reynolds number =200. There are several differences between their work and ours. The most important one is that they used a flexible plate, which makes the swimmer more adaptive to changes in the flow field, e.g. changes in tailbeat amplitude and changes in phase along its body and diverts some of the hydrodynamic energy to elastic energy. We edited the main text page 10 at the end of section “Critical size of inline formations beyond which cohesion is lost” to explain this distinction.

      (9) The authors seem to have all the tools needed to address the general question about how dynamically stable configurations relate to those that are energetically optimal. Are stable solutions optimal, or not? This would seem to have very important implications for animal groups, and the work addresses closely related topics but seems to miss the opportunity to give a definitive answer to this big question.

      Indeed, that is exactly the point – in pairwise formations, stable configurations are also energetically optimal! In larger groups, there is no unique stable configuration – each stable configuration is associated with a different degree of energy savings. Interestingly, when exploring various equilibrium configurations in a school of four, we found the diamond formation of D. Weihs, Nature, 1972 to be both stable and most optimal among the configurations we tested. However, claiming this as a global optimum may be misleading – our standpoint is that fish schools are always dynamic and that there are opportunities for energy savings in more than one stable configuration.

      We added a section in new text “Mapping emergent spatial patterns to energetic benefits”, and added a new figure in the maintext (Fig. 10) and a new figure in the SI (Fig. S. 8)

      (10) Time-delay particle model: This model seems to construct a simplified wake flow. But does the constructed flow satisfy basic properties that we demand of any flow, such as being divergence-free? If not, then the formulation may be troublesome.

      The simplified wake flow captures the hydrodynamic trail left by the swimmer in a very simplified manner. In the limit of small amplitude, it should be consistent with the inviscid vortex sheet shed of T. Wu’s waving swimmer model (Wu TY. 1961).

      The model was compared to experiments and used in several recent publications from the Courant Institute (Newbolt et al. 2019, 2022, 2024).

      Citations:  

      Wu, T. Y. T. (1961). Swimming of a waving plateJournal of Fluid Mechanics10(3), 321-344. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/S0022112061000949

      Newbolt, J. W., Lewis, N., Bleu, M., Wu, J., Mavroyiakoumou, C., Ramananarivo, S., & Ristroph, L. (2024). Flow interactions lead to self-organized flight formations disrupted by self-amplifying wavesNature Communications15(1), 3462. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-024-47525-9

      Newbolt, J. W., Zhang, J., & Ristroph, L. (2022). Lateral flow interactions enhance speed and stabilize formations of flapping swimmersPhysical Review Fluids7(6), L061101. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevFluids.7.L061101

      Newbolt, J. W., Zhang, J., & Ristroph, L. (2019). Flow interactions between uncoordinated flapping swimmers give rise to group cohesionProceedings of the National Academy of Sciences116(7), 2419-2424.  DOI: https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1816098116

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Congratulations on such a comprehensive and well-thought-out study; I truly enjoyed reading it and have only a couple of suggestions that I believe will help further strengthen the paper. I am including a bunch of references here that are very familiar to me without the expectation of you to include them all, just to point at areas that I feel you might consider useful.

      We thank the referee again for their careful read of the manuscript and for their constructive feedback. We appreciate it.

      First, I believe that some more rationale is needed to justify the chosen modeling framework. I am fully aware of how difficult is to run these simulations, but I see some critical assumptions that need to be at least spelled out for the reader to appreciate the limitations of the study: (1) Constraining the cross-stream coordinate (a stability analysis should include perturbations on the cross-stream coordinate as well, see, for example, https://doi.org/10.1017/flo.2023.25 -- I know this is much simpler as it discards any vortex shedding) and (2) Assuming equal frequency and amplitude (there are studies showing variation of tail beat frequency in animals depending on their position in the school, see, for example, https://doi.org/10.1007/s00265-014-1834-4).

      Thank you for these suggestions. These are indeed important and interesting points to discuss in the manuscript. See response above regarding point 1. Regarding point 2, this is of course important and will be pursued in future extensions of this work. We edited the intro and discussion of the main text to explain this.

      In the paper “Stability of schooling patterns of a fish pair swimming against a flow”, The authors considered a pair of swimmers swimming in a channel. They analyzed stability of the system and find multiple equilibria of the system, including inline and staggered formation, and a special formation of perpendicular to the wall. Studying fish school in confined domain and analyzing their stability is very interesting. We added citation to this paper in the discussion section at the end of page 10.

      In the paper “Fish swimming in schools save energy regardless of their spatial position”, the authors measured the reduction in power of fish by measuring tail beat frequency and oxygen consumption and compared them to measurements in solitary fish. They found that in a school of fish, individuals always save power comparing to swimming alone.  However, there is one important caveat in this study: they considered a larger school of fish and expressed the results in terms of pairwise configurations (see schematics we draw below). This is misleading because it may suggest that formations with only two fish provide benefits each other, while in fact, the data is obtained from a larger school with many neighbors. They only consider a fish’s relationship to its nearest neighbor. But in a large school, other neighbors will also have influence on their energy consumption.  In the schematics below, we emphasized on several focal fishes, marking them as red, green, and blue. We also marked their nearest neighbors using the same color, but lighter. The nearest neighbors are what the authors are considering to show its neighbor relationship. For example, a problematic one is the red fish, for which its nearest neighbor is behind it, but indeed, its power saving may come from the other neighbors, which are around or ahead it.

      Author response image 3.

      Second, I would like to see more biology context with respect to limitations that are inherent to a purely mechanical model, including, neglecting vision that we know plays a synergistic role in determining schooling patterns. For example, a recent study https://doi.org/10.1016/j.beproc.2022.104767 has presented experiments on fish swimming in the dark and in bright conditions, showing that it is unlikely that hydrodynamics alone could explain typically observed swimming patterns in the literature.

      Thank you for this suggestion and for sharing us with the paper “Collective response of fish to combined manipulations of illumination and flow”. This is a great study, and we are sorry to have missed it.

      In this paper, the authors found that when having illumination, fish swim more cohesively, which is in consistent with another paper we already cited “The sensory basis of schooling by intermittent swimming in the rummy-nose tetra (Hemigrammus rhodostomus)”. Another important conclusion in this paper is that when having brighter illumination and with flow, fish school spend more time side by side. This connects well to the conclusion in another paper we cited “Simple phalanx pattern leads to energy saving in cohesive fish schooling,” where at lower flow speed in a water channel, fish tended to form a dynamic school while at higher flow speed, they organized in a side-by-side/ phalanx configuration. This conclusion is consistent with our study that in side-by-side formation, fish share power saving.

      Importantly, it is well known that both vision and flow sensing play important roles in fish schooling. This study aimed to merely explore what is possible through passive hydrodynamic interactions, without visual and flow sensing and response. We clarify this in the revised version of the manuscript.

      Third, I am not too convinced about the flow agreement metric, which only accounts for linear interactions between the foils. More sophisticated approaches could be utilized as the one proposed here https://doi.org/10.1017/jfm.2018.369, based on a truly model-agnostic view of the interaction - therein, the authors show non-reciprocal (in strength and time-scale) coupling between two in-line flapping foils using information theory. I also would like to mention this older paper https://doi.org/10.1098/rsif.2012.0084, where an equivalent argument about the positioning of a trailing fish with respect to a leading robotic fish is made from experimental observations.

      Thank you for these remarks and for sharing these two interesting papers.

      The flow agreement metric is not specific to two fish, as we show in Fig. 6 of the manuscript. We edited the manuscript and SI to better explain the motivation and implementation of the flow agreement parameter. We edited the main text, see revisions on page 7, and added a new section call “diagnostic tools.”.

      In the paper “An information-theoretic approach to study fluid–structure interactions”, the authors calculate the transfer entropy between two oscillating airfoils when they are hydrodynamically coupled.  This is an interesting study! We will apply this approach to analyzing larger schools in the future. We cited this paper in the introduction.

      In the paper “Fish and robots swimming together: attraction towards the robot demands biomimetic locomotion”, the authors found that fish will swim behind an artificial fish robot, especially when the fish robot is beating its tail instead of static. At specific conditions, the fish hold station behind the robot, which may be due to the hydrodynamic advantage obtained by swimming in the robot’s wake. DPIV resolved the wake behind a static/ beating fish robot, but did not visualize the flow field when the fish is there. This study is similar to a paper we already cited “In-line swimming dynamics revealed by fish interacting with a robotic mechanism”, in which, they considered fish-foil interaction. In the revised manuscript, we cite both papers.

      For the reviewer’s comments about flow agreement only accounts for linear interactions between the foils, we want to explain more to clarify this. The flow agreement parameter is a nonlinear metric, which considered the interaction between a virtual swimmer and an arbitrary unsteady flow field. Although the metric is a linear function of swimmer’s speed, it is indeed a nonlinear function of spacing and phase, which are the quantities we care about. Moreover, the flow field can by generated by either experiment or CFD simulation, and behind one or more swimmers. It is true that it is a one way coupled system since the virtual swimmer does not perturb the flow field.

      Again, this is great work and I hope these suggestions are of help.

      Thank you again! We are delighted to receive such a positive and constructive feedback.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) About Figure 1: Panel C should be made to match between CFD and VS with regard to the swimmer positions. Also, if the general goal of the figure is to compare CFD and VS, then how about showing a difference map of the velocity fields as a third column of panels across A-D?

      Thank you for pointing this out. Figure 1 C is updated accordingly.

      The general goal is to show the CFD and VS simulations produce qualitatively similar results. Some quantities are not the same across models, e.g. the swimming speed of swimmers are different, but the scaled distance is the same.

      (2) Figure 3: In A, it would be nice to keep the y-axis the same across all plots, which would aid quick visual comparison. In B, the legend labels for CFD and VS should be filled in with color so that the reader can more easily connect to the markers in the plot.

      Thank you for pointing this out, we’ve updated figure 3 and 6.

      (3) Figures 4, 9, and Supplementary Figures too: As mentioned previously, the agreement parameter plots are saturated in the color map, possibly obscuring more detailed information.

      Thank you for pointing this out. The goal is to show that there is a large region with positive flow agreement parameter.

      We picked up the flow agreement behind a single swimmer in VS simulation (Fig.4B) and added the counter lines to it (represents 0.25 and 0.5).  Not many details are hidden by the saturated colormap.

      Author response image 4.

      We also updated Fig 4 and Fig 9 accordingly.

      (4) Figure 6: Is this CFD or VS? Why show one or the other and not both? In B, it seems that there are only savings available and no energetically costly positions. This seems odd. In C, it seems the absolute value on dF/dd is suppressing some important information about stability - the sign of this seems important. In E, the color bar seems to be reflected from what is standard, i.e. 0 on the left and 100 on the right, as in F.

      Thank you for asking. Fig. 6 is based only on VS simulations. There are hundreds of simulations in this figure, we are not running CFD simulations to save computational effort. Representative CFD simulations are shown in Figure 1,2,3, for comparison. We added a sentence in the figure caption for clarification.

      In C, since  is always negative for emergent formations (only stable equilibria can appear during forward time simulation), we are showing its absolute value for comparison.

      In E, we are flipping this because larger flow agreement parameter corresponds to more power saving, in the other word, negative changes in COT.

      (5) Fig. 8: For cases such as in D that have >100% power savings, does this mean that the swimmer has work done by the flow? How to interpret this physically for a flapping foil and biologically for a fish?

      Yes, it means the hydrofoil/fish gets a free ride, and even able to harvest energy from the incoming flow. Actually, similar phenomenon has been reported in the biology and engineering literature. For example, Liao et al. 2003, Beal et al. 2006 found that live or dead fish can harvest energy from incoming vortical flow by modulating their body curvature.

      In engineering, Chen et al. 2018, Ribeiro et al. 2021 have found that the following airfoil in a tandem/ inline formation can harvest energy from the wake of leading swimmer in both simulation and experiemnts.

      Citations:  

      Liao, J. C., Beal, D. N., Lauder, G. V., & Triantafyllou, M. S. (2003). Fish exploiting vortices decrease muscle activityScience302(5650), 1566-1569. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1088295

      Beal, D. N., Hover, F. S., Triantafyllou, M. S., Liao, J. C., & Lauder, G. V. (2006). Passive propulsion in vortex wakesJournal of fluid mechanics549, 385-402. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/S0022112005007925

      Chen, Y., Nan, J., & Wu, J. (2018). Wake effect on a semi-active flapping foil based energy harvester by a rotating foilComputers & Fluids160, 51-63. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.compfluid.2017.10.024

      Ribeiro, B. L. R., Su, Y., Guillaumin, Q., Breuer, K. S., & Franck, J. A. (2021). Wake-foil interactions and energy harvesting efficiency in tandem oscillating foilsPhysical Review Fluids6(7), 074703. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevFluids.6.074703

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer 1:

      (1) Figure 2 is mentioned before Figure 1

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, this was a mistake. What was meant by Figure 2 was actually Figure 1. This has been corrected in the manuscript.

      (2) Figure 1c: red is used to indicate cell junctions on raw data, but also the error.

      The color red is used to indicate cell junctions on raw data on figure 1c left, while it is used to indicate the error on figure 1c right.

      The Lagrangian error can be negative right? This is not reflected by the error scale which goes from 0% to 100%

      A negative Lagragian error would mean that the distance between real and simulated cellular junctions decreased over time. We effectively treat this case as if there was no displacement, and the error is hence 0%.

      Why do you measure the error in percent?

      The error is measured in percentages because it is relative to the apical length of a cell.

      (3) Figure 2: The distinction between pink and red in e_2(t) is very difficult. What do the lines indicate?

      The lines indicate directions of the eigen vectors of the strain rate tensor at every material particle of the embryo.

      (4) L156 "per unit length": Rather per unit time?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We apologize for this mistake. "per unit length" has been changed to "per unit time"

      (5) L159 "Eigen vectors in this sense": is there another sense?

      "In this sense" is referring to the geometric description of eigen vectors. The phrase has been removed

      (6) L164 "magnitude of the rate of change underwent by a particle at the surface of the embryo in the three orthogonal spatial directions of most significant rate of change."

      Would a decomposition in two directions within the surface's tangent plane and one perpendicular to it not be better?

      We also performed the decomposition of the strain rate tensor as suggested within the surface's tangent plane and one perpendicular to it, but did not notice any tangible differences in the overall analysis, especially after derivation of the scalar field.

      (7) L174 "morphological activity": I think this notion is never defined

      By morphological activity we mean any noticeable shape changes

      (8) L177: I did not quite understand this part

      This part tries to convey that the scalar strain rate field evidences coordinated cell behaviors by highlighting wide regions of red that traverse cell boundaries (e.g. fig.2b, $t=5.48hpb$). At the same time, the strain rate field preserves cell boundaries, highlighted by bands of red at cellular intersections, when cell coordinated cell behaviors are not preponderant (e.g. fig.2b, $t=4hpb$).

      (9) Ll 194 "Unsurprisingly, these functions play an important role in many branches of science including quantum mechanics and geophysics Knaack and Stenflo (2005); Dahlen and Tromp (2021)." Does this really help in understanding spherical harmonics?

      This comment was made with the aim of showing to the reader that Spherical Harmonics have proved to be useful in other fields. Although it does not help in understanding spherical harmonics, it establishes that they can be effective.

      (10) Figure 3a: I do not find this panel particularly helpful. What does the color indicate? What are the prefactors of the spherical harmonics?

      This panel showcases the restriction of the strain rate scalar field to the spherical harmonics with the l and m specified. Each material particle of the embryo surface at the time  is colored with respect to the value of . The values are computed according to equation 2 and are showcased in figure 3c.

      (11) L 265: Please define "scalogram" as opposed to a spectrogram.

      Scalograms are the result of wavelet transforms applied to a signal. Although spectrogram can specifically refer to the spectrum of frequencies resulting for example from a Fourier transform, the term can also be used in a broader sense to designate any time-frequency representation. In the context of this paper, we used it interchangeably with scalogram. We have changed all occurrences of spectrogram to scalogram in the revised manuscript.

      (12) L 299 "the analysis was carried out the 64-cell stage.": Probably 'the analysis was carried out at the 64-cell stage'

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The manuscript was revised to reflect the suggested change.

      (13) L 340 "Another outstanding advantage over traditional is": Something seems to be missing in this sentence.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have modified the sentence in the revised manuscript. It now reads “Another outstanding advantage of our workflow over traditional methods is that our workflow is able to compress the story of the development ... ”.

      (14) Ll 357 "on the one hand, the overall spatial resolution of the raw data, on the other hand, the induced computational complexity.": Is there something missing in this sentence

      The sentence tries to convey the idea that in implementing our method, there is a comprise to be made between the choice of the number of particles on the constructed mesh and the computational complexity induced by this choice. There is also a comprise to be made between this choice of the number of particles and the spatial resolution of the original dataset.

      Reviewer 2:

      (1) The authors should clearly state to which data this method has been applied in this paper. Also, to what kind of data can this method be applied? For instance, should the embryo surface be segmented?

      The method has been applied on 3D+time imaging data of ascidian embryonic development data hosted on the morphonet (morphonet.org) platform. The data on the morphonet platform comes in two formats: closed surface meshes of segmented cells spatially organized into the embryo, and 3D voxelated images of the embryo. The method was first designed for the former format and then extended to the later. There is no requirement for the embryo surface to be segmented.

      (2) In this paper, it is essential to understand the way that the authors introduced the Lagrangian markers on the surface of the embryo. However, understanding the method solely based on the description in the main text was difficult. I recommend providing a detailed explanation of the methodology including equations in the main text for clarity.

      We believe that adding mathematical details of the method into the text will cloud the text and make it more difficult to understand. Interested readers can refer to the supplementary material for detailed explanation of the method.

      (3) In eq.(1) of the supplementary information, d(x,S_2(t)) could be a distance function between S_1 and S_2 although it was not stated. How was the distance function between the surfaces defined?

      What was meant here was d(x,S_1(t)) where x is a point of S_2(t). d(x,S_1(t)) referring to the distance between point x and S_1(t). The definition of the distance function has been clarified in the supplementary information.

      (4) In the section on the level set scheme of supplementary information, the derivation of eq.(4) from eq.(3) was not clear.

      We added an intermediary equation for clarification.

      (5) Why is a reference shape S_1(0) absent at t=0?

      A reference shape S_1(0) is absent at t=0 precisely because that is what we are trying to achieve: construct an evolving Lagrangian surface S_2(t) matching S_1(t) at all times.

      (6) In Figure 2(a), it is unclear what was plotted. What do the colors mean? A color bar should be provided.

      The caption of the figure describes the colors: “a) Heatmap of the eigenvector fields of the strain rate tensor. Each row represents a vector field distinguished by a distinct root color (\textit{yellow, pink, white}). The gradient from the root color to red represents increasing magnitudes of the strain rate tensor.”

      (7) With an appropriate transformation, it would be possible to create a 2D map from a 3D representation shown in for instance Figure 2. Such a 2D representation would be more tractable for looking at the overall activities.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. In Figure 4b of the supplementary information, we provide a 2D projection of the scalar strain rate field.

      (8) The strain rate is a second-order tensor that contains rich information. In this paper, the information in the tensor has been compressed into a scalar field by taking the square root of the sum of the squares of the eigenvalues. However, such a representation may not distinguish important events such as stretching and compression of the tissue. The authors should provide appropriate arguments regarding the limitations of this analysis.

      The tensor form of the strain rate field is indeed endowed with more information than the scalar eigen value field derived. However, our objective in this project was not to exhaust the richness of the strain rate tensor field but rather to serve as a proof of concept that our global approach to studying morphogenesis could in fact unveil sufficiently rich information on the dynamical processes at play. Although not in the scope of this project, a more thorough exploration of the strain rate tensor field could be the object of future investigations.

      (9) The authors claimed that similarities emerge between the spatiotemporal distribution of morphogenesis processes in the previous works and the heatmaps in this work. Some concrete data should be provided to support this claim.

      All claims have been backed with references to previous works. For instances, looking at figure 2b, the two middle panels on the lower row (5.48hpf, 6.97hpf), we explained that the concentration of red refers respectively to endoderm invagination during gastrulation, and zippering during neurulation [we cited Hashimoto et al. (2015)]. Here, we relied on eye observation to spot the similarities. The rest of the paper provides substantial and robust additional support for these claims using spectral decomposition in space and time.

      (10) The authors also claimed that "A notable by-product of this scalar field is the evidencing of the duality of the embryo as both a sum of parts constituted of cells and an emerging entity in itself: the strain rate field clearly discriminates between spatiotemporal locations where isolated single cell behaviours are preponderant and those where coordinated cell behaviours dominate." The authors should provide specific examples and analysis to support this argument.

      Here, we relied on eye observation to make this claim. This whole section of the paper “Strain rate field describes ascidian morphogenesis” was about computing, plot and observing the strain rate field.

      However, specific examples were provided. This paragraph was building towards this statement, and the evidence was scattered through the paragraph. We have now revised the sentence to ensure that we highlight specific examples:

      “A notable by-product of this scalar field is the evidencing of the duality of the embryo as both a sum of parts constituted of cells and an emerging entity in itself: the strain rate field clearly discriminates between spatiotemporal locations where isolated single cell behaviours are preponderant (e.g. fig.2b, $t=4hpb$) and those where coordinated cell behaviours dominate (e.g. fig.2b, $t=5.48hpb$).”

      (11) The authors should provide the details of the analysis method used in Figure 3b, including relevant equations. In particular, it would be helpful to clarify the differences that cause the observed differences between Figure 3b and Figure 3c.

      Figure 3b was introduced with the sentence: “In analogy to Principal Components Analysis, we measure the average variance ratio over time of each harmonic with respect to the original signal (Fig.3b).” explaining the origin of variance ratio values used in figure 3b. We have now added the mathematical expression to further clarify.

      (12) The authors found that the variance ratio of Y_00 was 64.4%. Y_00 is a sphere, indicating that most of the activity can be explained by a uniform activity. Which actual biological process explains this symmetrical activity?

      The reviewer makes a good point which also gave us a lot to think about during the analysis. Observing that the contribution of Y00 peaks during synchronous divisions, which are interestingly restricted only to the animal pole, we conjecture that localized morphological ripples and can be felt throughout the embryo. 

      (13) The contribution of other spherical harmonics than Y_00 and Y_10 should be shown.

      Other spherical harmonics contributed individual to less than 1% and we did not find it important to include them in the main figure. We will add supplementary material.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In their manuscript entitled: "Is tumor mutational burden predictive of response to immunotherapy?", Gurjao and colleagues discuss the use of tumor mutational burden (TMB) as a predictive biomarker for cancer patients to respond to immune checkpoint blockage (ICB). By analyzing a large cohort of 882 patient samples across different tumor types they find either little or no association of TMB to the response of ICB. In addition, they showed that finding the optimal cutoff for patient stratification lead to a severe multiple testing problem. By rigorously addressing this multiple testing problem only non-small cell lung cancer out of 10 cancer types showed a statistically significant association of TMB and response to ICB. Nevertheless, it is clearly shown that in any case the rate of misclassification is too high that TMB alone would qualify as a clinically suitable biomarker for ICB response. Finally, the authors demonstrate with a simple mathematical model that only a few strong immunogenic mutations would be sufficient for an ICB response, thereby showing that also patients with a low TMB score could benefit from immunotherapy. The manuscript is clearly written, the results are well presented and the applied methods are state-of-the-art.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their thoughtful suggestions and efforts towards improving our manuscript. We address below the reviewer’s recommendations.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The method used for mutation call can also influence the TMB score. Mutation data was downloaded from public databases and not re-called for this study, a potential caller bias could be present. What was the calling strategy of the used data sets? For the present study, I don't think that this is crucial because different callers or post-call processing would be used at different sites to determine TMB. I think it should the mutation calling bias should also be discussed in the manuscript as another shortcoming for TMB as a biomarker for ICB response.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Mutational data was not aggregated across studies and caller bias would thus not have any impact on the results of this manuscript. In addition, we further clarified the role of mutation calling bias in the Discussions section.

      “Although attractive and scalable, TMB does not consider the effect of specific mutations (missense, frameshift etc), their presentation and clonality (19), nor the state of the tumour, its microenvironment, and interactions with the immune system that can be integrated into potentially better predictors of response to ICB (43, 44). In addition, another major limitation of TMB is the lack of standardized measures. This includes the lack of standard sequencing methods to assess TMB: TMB can be measured from Whole-Exome sequencing, Whole-Genome sequencing, targeted panel and even RNA sequencing. This also includes biases introduced by using different mutation calling pipelines resulting in different TMB, sequencing depth and different characteristics of the samples (e.g. low purity samples typically yield lower TMB).”

      (2) In their mathematical model of neoantigens and immunogenicity it is assumed that the probability of a mutation to be immunogenic is constant for all mutations. In reality this is certainly not satisfied. However, the central conclusion from the model still holds. I think that this is important to discuss in the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and now consider the case where each mutation has its own probability p(i) of being immunogenic.

      “Our model shows that achieving about constant 𝑃{𝑖𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑒} for 𝑁 > 10 − 20 mutations, requires and . The same argument holds when each mutation has its  own probability to be immunogenic 𝑝(𝑖), then , where is the mean probability of a mutation to be immunogenic. Thus only the average probability of a mutation to be immunogenic matters. In summary, we find that the model agrees with clinical data if individual non-synonymous mutations have, on average, 𝑝~10 − 20% chance for triggering an immune response.”

      (3) In the mathematical formula on page 8, C_N^k is the binomial coefficient. This should be stated or written out.

      Thank you for pointing this out. Corrected.

      “Due to immunodominance, only a few 𝑘crit immunogenic mutations are sufficient to elicit a full k𝑐𝑟𝑖𝑡 immune response. Hence, the probability for a cancer with 𝑁 (=TMB) mutations to elicit an immune response is then the probability of having 𝑘 or more immunogenic mutations among :

      which is the CDF of a binomial distribution.”

      (4) The mathematical model provides an explanation that tumors with a low TMB can also respond on ICB. It cannot explain tumors with high TMB lacking ICB response. An explanation of this phenomenon is discussed in the paper but I think also the impact of the tumor immune microenvironment should be mentioned here.

      As we explained in the presentation of the model, even immunogenic tumors elicit response to ICB with some probability. In the revision we write:

      “𝑃{𝑐𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑙 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑒} = 𝑃{𝑐𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑙 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑒|𝑖𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑒} · 𝑃{𝑖𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑒}, where 𝑃{𝑐𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑙 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑒|𝑖𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑒} is the probability of clinical response, given that cancer elicits an immune response which is complex and depends on many factors including tumor immune microenvironment. Yet the prerequisite for the clinical response is the immune response 𝑃{𝑖𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑒} that we focus on.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The manuscript points out that TMB cut-offs are not strong predictors of response to immunotherapy or overall survival. By randomly shuffling TMB values within cohorts to simulate a null distribution of log-rank test p-values, they show that under correction, the statistical significance of previously reported TMB cut-offs for predicting outcomes is questionable.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their thoughtful suggestions and efforts towards improving our manuscript.

      There is a clinical need for a better prediction of treatment response than TMB alone can provide. However, no part of the analysis challenges the validity of the well-known pan-cancer correlation between TMB and immunotherapy response.

      We address the pan-cancer correlation in the supplemental text and Figure S3. We realized the supplemental text was missing in eLife submission and included in the bioRxiv only. We apologize for this oversight. In particular, we show that the “well-known pan-cancer correlation” is largely based on a few outlier cancer subtypes - MSI colorectal cancers and uveal/ ocular melanomas. We show that when we remove these cancer types from the pan-cancer dataset, the correlation becomes non-significant for the remaining 15 cancer types.

      The failure to detect significant TMB cut-offs may be due to insufficient power, as the examined cohorts have relatively low sample sizes. A power analysis would be informative of what cohort sizes are needed to detect small to modest effects of TMB on immune response.

      Since we see no effect, we cannot perform a power analysis. Moreover, increasing cohort sizes cannot increase the effect -- dramatic misclassification of responders (the fraction of responders below the treatment cutoff) would remain the same, making TMB unsuitable for clinical decision-making.

      The manuscript provides a simple model of immunogenicity that is tailored to be consistent with a claimed lack of relationship between TMB and response to immunotherapy. Under the model, if each mutation that a tumor has acquired has a relatively high probability of being immunogenic (~10%, they suggest), and if 1-2 immunogenic mutations is enough to induce an immune response, then most tumors produce an immune response, and TMB and response should be uncorrelated except in very low-TMB tumors.

      Contrary to reviewer’s suggestion, our modeling is not tailored to be consistent with the lack of association between TMB and response. On the contrary, we found the model has two regimes: the first regime (where p<<1) in which higher TMB leads to a higher probability of response, which doesn’t agree with the data , and the second regime (p~0.1) in which cancers with TMB>10-20 are immunogenic, consistent with the clinical data.

      We further expanded on these key points in the Results:

      “The model shows two different behaviors. If individual mutations are unlikely to be immunogenic (𝑝 ≪ 1) , e.g. due to a low probability of being presented, the probability of response increases gradually with TMB (Figure 5B). The neoantigen theory generally expects such gradual increase in immunogenicity of cancer with TMB. Yet, available data (Figure 2) don’t show such a trend.

      On the contrary, if mutations are more likely to be immunogenic 𝑝~0. 1, the probability of response quickly saturates (Figure 5C), making such tumors respond to ICB irrespective of TMB, as we observed in clinical data.”

      We also expanded on these key points in the Introduction:

      “We develop a simple model that is based on the neoantigen theory and find that it has two regimes. In one regime, the probability of response increases gradually with TMB, as commonly believed. Yet in the other, the probability of response saturates after a few mutations, making a chance to respond independent of TMB. Our analysis of the clinical data is consistent with the latter regime. Thus our model shows that the neoantigen theory is fully consistent with the lack of association between TMB and response.”

      The question then becomes whether the response is sufficient to wipe out tumor cells in conjunction with immunotherapy, which is essentially the same question of predicting response that motivated the original analysis. While TMB alone is not an excellent predictor of treatment response, the pan-cancer correlation between TMB and response/survival is highly significant, so the model's only independent prediction is wrong.

      Our study indicates that TMB is a very poor predictor (writing that it’s “not an excellent predictor of treatment response” is understatement). Moreover we show that a widely believed “pan-cancer correlation” is shaky as well (Supplemental text and Figure S3). So we don’t see any contradictions between the model and the data.

      Additionally, experiments to predict and validate neoepitopes suggest that a much smaller fraction of nonsynonymous mutations produce immune responses1,2.

      We agree with the reviewer. That’s exactly what the model suggests.

      A key idea that is overlooked in this manuscript is that of survivorship bias: self-evidently, none of the mutations found at the time of sequencing have been immunogenic enough to provoke a response capable of eliminating the tumor. While the authors suggest that immunoediting "is inefficient, allowing tumors to accumulate a high TMB," the alternative explanation fits the neoepitope literature better: most mutations that reach high allele frequency in tumor cells are not immunogenic in typical (or patient-specific) tumor environments. Of course, immunotherapies sometimes succeed in overcoming the evolved immune evasion of tumors. Higher-TMB tumors are likely to continue to have higher mutation rates after sequencing; increased generation of new immunogenic mutations may partially explain their modestly improved responses to therapy.

      We disagree with reviewers' assertion that survivorship bias could explain observed phenomena. If immunogenic mutations that arise during cancer development were eliminated (by purifying selection, i.e. reduced fitness or cellular death) then observed mutations would carry noticeable signatures of purifying selection. On the contrary, cancer genomic data shows incredibly weak signals of purifying selection on non-synonymous mutations (Weghorn and Sunyaev, Nature Genetics 2017), and observed passenger mutations are practically indistinguishable from random in their effect on proteins (McFarland et al PNAS 2013).

      We do agree with the statement that “most mutations … in tumor cells are not immunogenic”. In fact that’s exactly what our model predicts: (1-p)~90% of mutations in the model are non-immunogenic, while remaining p~10% being sufficient to trigger an immune response. We clarify this in the text of the paper: “On the contrary, if mutations are more likely to be immunogenic 𝑝~0. 1, the probability of response quickly saturates (Figure 5C), making such tumors respond to ICB irrespective of TMB, as we observed in clinical data. ”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Abstract

      Defining TMB as "number of non-synonymous mutations": while TMB is not consistently defined throughout the literature, it is usually given as a rate rather than a total count, and sometimes synonymous mutations are included. Consider adopting the definition used by the TMB Harmonization Project: "number of somatic mutations per megabase of interrogated genomic sequence.3"

      We thank the reviewer for their comment,

      Be more specific about your findings, so that abstract readers can get some understanding of your proposed explanation for the "immunogenicity of neoantigens and the lack of association between TMB and response."

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. We modified the abstract to explain that the theory we developed expands the neoantigen theory yet can be consistent with the observed lack of association between TMB and response:

      "Second, we develop a model that expands the neoantigen theory and can be consistent with both immunogenicity of neoantigens and the lack of association between TMB and response. Our analysis shows that the use of TMB in clinical practice is not supported by available data and can deprive patients of treatment to which they are likely to respond.”

      Introduction

      Again, consider using a more standard definition of TMB.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. Our study did not seek to harmonize TMB across the datasets and we thus used the total number of mutations rather than the mutational rate often used for comparison across different datasets.

      Expand the introduction to provide a preview of the purpose and direction of your analysis. The current draft reveals only that the analysis will relate to TMB.

      We expanded the introduction providing the motivation, the approach, and the summary of main findings.

      “Using a biomarker to stratify and prioritize patients for treatment runs a risk of depriving patients who have a chance to respond to a life-saving treatment. High variability of response makes relying on a predictor particularly risky. Hence, we revisit original data that were used to establish correlation between TMB and response. We tested TMB as a predictor of both binary responder/non-responder labels from original clinical studies, as well as continuous survival data. We also investigated whether a TMB threshold could distinguish patients with high and low survival after multiple hypothesis testing. We find that no TMB threshold performs better on the clinical data than on randomized ones.

      We further show that irrespective of the strategy to choose the threshold, even if we were to employ the optimal TMB cutoff, it would still lead to about 25% of responders falling below the treatment prioritization threshold. In addition, we re-examine the pan-cancer association of TMB with response rate to ICB.

      “Finally we revisit the neoantigen theory that was the rationale for using TMB as a predictor of response to immunotherapy. The theory stipulates that non-synonymous mutations can lead to the production of unique antigens (_neo_antigens) that are recognized by the immune system as foreign, triggering the immune response to cancer. The theory further assumes that the more mutations a cancer has, the more likely it triggers the immune system, and the more likely it will benefit from immunotherapy. We develop a simple model that is based on the neoantigen theory and find that it has two regimes. In one regime, the probability of response increases gradually with TMB, as commonly believed. Yet in the other, the probability of response saturates after a few mutations, making a chance to respond independent of TMB. Our analysis of the clinical data is consistent with the latter regime. Thus our model shows that the neoantigen theory is fully consistent with the lack of association between TMB and response.”

      Section: Is TMB associated with response after treatment?

      The claim that after excluding melanoma and some colorectal cancers, there is no relationship between TMB and response rates in pan-cancer studies cites references 12 and 14. In reference 12 (Yarchoan et al.), it is clear from glancing at their Figure 1 that a pan-cancer correlation between TMB and response would remain with these cancer types excluded. This discrepancy requires explanation. "Supplementary text" is cited for this claim, but it was not included in the file that I received.

      We address the pan-cancer correlation in the supplemental text and Figure S3. While the figure was available, we realized the supplemental text was missing in eLife submission. We apologize for this oversight.

      Plots of survival and TMB do not show "visible correlation": Please strengthen this claim with an appropriate statistical test.

      We expand the figure caption to explain the following:

      “Plots of progression-free survival and TMB for melanoma and lung cancer ICB cohorts show the lack of correlation or of an obvious TMB cutoff. Computing a simple correlation for survival and censored data cannot correctly represent the dependence since patients who are alive live longer than the reported survival, and limiting correlation to patients who are dead would bias the analysis. Thus other survival statistics are used through the paper.”

      Section: Model reconciles neoantigen theory and data

      Page 8: In the probability formula, the C term is not defined. My guess is that it means choose(N, k).

      Please clarify.

      Thank you for pointing this out. Corrected using more conventional notation.

      which is the CDF of a binomial distribution.

      Page 8: Assuming the above, P(immune response) = P(X >= k_crit); where X~Bin(N, p). The formula should be explicitly introduced in terms of the CDF of the binomial distribution to prevent readers from thinking the wheel is being re-invented.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, we modified the equation in the text to make it easier to see this point (see above). We refrain from going further since the CDF of a binomial distribution doesn’t have a closed form and can only be written as the regularized incomplete beta function.

      Page 9: Missing word in "allowing cancers with as little as mutations to be"

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, we modified the text accordingly.

      See comments in public review. In brief, I think a convincing case is made regarding the significance of TMB cut-offs as predictors of survival within cancer types, but frankly this elementary model is not compelling.

      Section: Materials and Methods

      In the manuscript, it is stated that TMB is accepted as reported by data sources. Since most of the comparisons in the manuscript are within-data-source, that is acceptable. However, it should be ensured that TMB measurements are comparable between samples within each source. For example, when TMB is reported as a total mutation count, it can be verified that all samples have the same coverage, or measurement can be converted to mutations per megabase of coverage. In the same vein, if this manuscript's definition of TMB only includes nonsynomous mutations, it should be confirmed that the TMB reported by data sources excludes synonymous mutations.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. We leverage total TMB as reported in the original studies claiming an association between TMB and response/ survival.

      Figure S2: Instead of writing "the Youden index associated cutoffs is also plotted," it can be stated that the asterisk represents the Youden index cutoff, or a legend can be added that provides this information.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, we modified the text accordingly.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Tiedje et al. investigated the transient impact of indoor residual spraying (IRS) followed by seasonal malaria chemoprevention (SMC) on the plasmodium falciparum parasite population in a high transmission setting. The parasite population was characterized by sequencing the highly variable DBL$\alpha$ tag as a proxy for var genes, a method known as varcoding. Varcoding presents a unique opportunity due to the extraordinary diversity observed as well as the extremely low overlap of repertoires between parasite strains. The authors also present a new Bayesian approach to estimating individual multiplicity of infection (MOI) from the measured DBL$\alpha$ repertoire, addressing some of the potential shortcomings of the approach that have been previously discussed. The authors also present a new epidemiological endpoint, the so-called "census population size", to evaluate the impact of interventions. This study provides a nice example of how varcoding technology can be leveraged, as well as the importance of using diverse genetic markers for characterizing populations, especially in the context of high transmission. The data are robust and clearly show the transient impact of IRS in a high transmission setting, however, some aspects of the analysis are confusing.

      (1) Approaching MOI estimation with a Bayesian framework is a well-received addition to the varcoding methodology that helps to address the uncertainty associated with not knowing the true repertoire size. It's unfortunate that while the authors clearly explored the ability to estimate the population MOI distribution, they opted to use only MAP estimates. Embracing the Bayesian methodology fully would have been interesting, as the posterior distribution of population MOI could have been better explored. 

      We thank the reviewer for appreciating the extension of var_coding we present here. We believe the comment on maximum _a posteriori (MAP) refers to the way we obtained population-level MOI from the individual MOI estimates. We would like to note that reliance on MAP was only one of two approaches we described, although we then presented only MAP.  Having calculated both, we did not observe major differences between the two, for this data set.  Nonetheless, we revised the manuscript to include the result based on the mixture distribution which considers all the individual MOI distributions in the Figure supplement 6.

      (2) The "census population size" endpoint has unclear utility. It is defined as the sum of MOI across measured samples, making it sensitive to the total number of samples collected and genotyped. This means that the values are not comparable outside of this study, and are only roughly comparable between strata in the context of prevalence where we understand that approximately the same number of samples were collected. In contrast, mean MOI would be insensitive to differences in sample size, why was this not explored? It's also unclear in what way this is a "census". While the sample size is certainly large, it is nowhere near a complete enumeration of the parasite population in question, as evidenced by the extremely low level of pairwise type sharing in the observed data. 

      We consider the quantity a census in that it is a total enumeration or count of infections in a given population sample and over a given time period. In this sense, it gives us a tangible notion of the size of the parasite population, in an ecological sense, distinct from the formal effective population size used in population genetics. Given the low overlap between var repertoires of parasites (as observed in monoclonal infections), the population size we have calculated translates to a diversity of strains or repertoires.  But our focus here is in a measure of population size itself.  The distinction between population size in terms of infection counts and effective population size from population genetics has been made before for pathogens (see for example Bedford et al. for the seasonal influenza virus and for the measles virus (Bedford et al., 2011)), and it is also clear in the ecological literature for non-pathogen populations (Palstra and Fraser, 2012). 

      We completely agree with the dependence of our quantity on sample size. We used it for comparisons across time of samples of the same depth, to describe the large population size characteristic of high transmission which persists across the IRS intervention. Of course, one would like to be able to use this quantity across studies that differ in sampling depth and the reviewer makes an insightful and useful suggestion.  It is true that we can use mean MOI, and indeed there is a simple map between our population size and mean MOI (as we just need to divide or multiply by sample size, respectively) (Table supplement 7).  We can go further, as with mean MOI we can presumably extrapolate to the full sample size of the host population, or to the population size of another sample in another location. What is needed for this purpose is a stable mean MOI relative to sample size.  We can show that indeed in our study mean MOI is stable in that way, by subsampling to different depths our original sample (Figure supplement 8 in the revised manuscript). We now include in the revision discussion of this point, which allows an extrapolation of the census population size to the whole population of hosts in the local area.

      We have also clarified the time denominator: Given the typical duration of infection, we expect our population size to be representative of a per-generation measure_._

      (3) The extraordinary diversity of DBL$\alpha$ presents challenges to analyzing the data. The authors explore the variability in repertoire richness and frequency over the course of the study, noting that richness rapidly declined following IRS and later rebounded, while the frequency of rare types increased, and then later declined back to baseline levels. The authors attribute this to fundamental changes in population structure. While there may have been some changes to the population, the observed differences in richness as well as frequency before and after IRS may also be compatible with simply sampling fewer cases, and thus fewer DBL$\alpha$ sequences. The shift back to frequency and richness that is similar to pre-IRS also coincides with a similar total number of samples collected. The authors explore this to some degree with their survival analysis, demonstrating that a substantial number of rare sequences did not persist between timepoints and that rarer sequences had a higher probability of dropping out. This might also be explained by the extreme stochasticity of the highly diverse DBL$\alpha$, especially for rare sequences that are observed only once, rather than any fundamental shifts in the population structure.

      We thank the reviewer raising this question which led us to consider whether the change in the number of DBLα types over the course of the study (and intervention) follows from simply sampling fewer P. falciparum cases. We interpreted this question as basically meaning that one can predict the former from the latter in a simple way, and that therefore, tracking the changes in DBLα type diversity would be unnecessary.  A simple map would be for example a linear relationship (a given proportion of DBLα types lost given genomes lost), and even more trivially, a linear loss with a slope of one (same proportion).  Note, however, that for such expectations, one needs to rely on some knowledge of strain structure and gene composition. In particular, we would need to assume a complete lack of overlap and no gene repeats in a given genome. We have previously shown that immune selection leads to selection for minimum overlap and distinct genes in repertoires at high transmission (see for example (He et al., 2018)) for theoretical and empirical evidence of both patterns). Also, since the size of the gene pool is very large, even random repertoires would lead to limited overlap (even though the empirical overlap is even smaller than that expected at random (Day et al., 2017)). Despite these conservators, we cannot a priori assume a pattern of complete non-overlap and distinct genes, and ignore plausible complexities introduced by the gene frequency distribution.  

      To examine this insightful question, we simulated the loss of a given proportion of genomes from baseline in 2012 and examined the resulting loss of DBLα types. We specifically cumulated the loss of infections in individuals until it reached a given proportion (we can do this on the basis of the estimated individual MOI values). We repeated this procedure 500 times for each proportion, as the random selection of individual infection to be removed, introduces some variation. Figure 2 below shows that the relationship is nonlinear, and that one quantity is not a simple proportion of the other.  For example, the loss of half the genomes does not result in the loss of half the DBLα types. 

      Author response image 1.

      Non-linear relationship between the loss of DBLα types and the loss of a given proportion of genomes. The graph shows that the removal of parasite genomes from the population through intervention does not lead to the loss of the same proportion of DBLα types, as the initial removal of genomes involves the loss of rare DBLα types mostly whereas common DBLα types persist until a high proportion of genomes are lost. The survey data (pink dots) used for this subsampling analysis was sampled at the end of wet/high transmission season in Oct 2012 from Bongo District from northern Ghana. We used the Bayesian formulation of the _var_coding method proposed in this work to calculate the multiplicity of infection of each isolate to further obtain the total number of genomes. The randomized surveys (black dots) were obtained based on “curveball algorithm” (Strona et al., 2014) which keep isolate lengths and type frequency distribution.

      We also investigated whether the resulting pattern changed significantly if we randomized the composition of the isolates.  We performed such randomization with the “curveball algorithm” (Strona et al., 2014). This algorithm randomizes the presence-absence matrix with rows corresponding to the isolates and columns, to the different DBLα types; importantly, it preserves the DBLα type frequency and the length of isolates. We generated 500 randomizations and repeated the simulated loss of genomes as above. The data presented in Figure 2 above show that the pattern is similar to that obtained for the empirical data presented in this study in Ghana. We interpret this to mean that the number of genes is so large, that the reduced overlap relative to random due to immune selection (see (Day et al., 2017)) does not play a key role in this specific pattern. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):  

      In this manuscript, Tiedje and colleagues longitudinally track changes in parasite numbers across four time points as a way of assessing the effect of malaria control interventions in Ghana. Some of the study results have been reported previously, and in this publication, the authors focus on age-stratification of the results. Malaria prevalence was lower in all age groups after IRS. Follow-up with SMC, however, maintained lower parasite prevalence in the targeted age group but not the population as a whole. Additionally, they observe that diversity measures rebounds more slowly than prevalence measures. Overall, I found these results clear, convincing, and well-presented. They add to a growing literature that demonstrates the relevance of asymptomatic reservoirs.  There is growing interest in developing an expanded toolkit for genomic epidemiology in malaria, and detecting changes in transmission intensity is one major application. As the authors summarize, there is no one-size-fits-all approach, and the Bayesian MOIvar estimate developed here has the potential to complement currently used methods. I find its extension to a calculation of absolute parasite numbers appealing as this could serve as both a conceptually straightforward and biologically meaningful metric. However, I am not fully convinced the current implementation will be applied meaningfully across additional studies. 

      (1) I find the term "census population size" problematic as the groups being analyzed (hosts grouped by age at a single time point) do not delineate distinct parasite populations. Separate parasite lineages are not moving through time within these host bins. Rather, there is a single parasite population that is stochastically divided across hosts at each time point. I find this distinction important for interpreting the results and remaining mindful that the 2,000 samples at each time point comprise a subsample of the true population. Instead of "census population size", I suggest simplifying it to "census count" or "parasite lineage count".  It would be fascinating to use the obtained results to model absolute parasite numbers at the whole population level (taking into account, for instance, the age structure of the population), and I do hope this group takes that on at some point even if it remains outside the scope of this paper. Such work could enable calculations of absolute---rather than relative---fitness and help us further understand parasite distributions across hosts.

      Lineages moving exclusively through a given type of host or “patch”  are not a necessary requirement for enumerating the size of the total infections in such subset.  It is true that what we have is a single parasite population, but we are enumerating for the season the respective size in host classes (children and adults). This is akin to enumerating subsets of a population in ecological settings where one has multiple habitat patches, with individuals able to move across patches.

      Remaining mindful that the count is relative to sample size is an important point. Please see our response to comment (2) of reviewer 1, also for the choice of terminology. We prefer not to adopt “census count” as a census in our mind is a count, and we are not clear on the concept of lineage for these highly recombinant parasites.  Also, census population size has been adopted already in the literature for both pathogens and non-pathogens, to make a distinction with the notion of effective population size in population genetics (see our response to reviewer 1) and is consistent with our usage as outlined in the introduction. 

      Thank you for the comment on an absolute number which would extrapolate to the whole host population.  Please see again our response to comment (2) of reviewer 1, on how we can use mean MOI for this purpose once the sampling is sufficient for this quantity to become constant/stable with sampling effort.

      (2) I'm uncertain how to contextualize the diversity results without taking into account the total number of samples analyzed in each group. Because of this, I would like a further explanation as to why the authors consider absolute parasite count more relevant than the combined MOI distribution itself (which would have sample count as a denominator). It seems to me that the "per host" component is needed to compare across age groups and time points---let alone different studies.

      Again, thank you for the insightful comment. We provide this number as a separate quantity and not a distribution, although it is clearly related to the mean MOI of such distribution. It gives a tangible sense for the actual infection count (different from prevalence) from the perspective of the parasite population in the ecological sense. The “per host” notion which enables an extrapolation to any host population size for the purpose of a complete count, or for comparison with another study site, has been discussed in the above responses for reviewer 1 and now in the revision of the discussion.

      (3) Thinking about the applicability of this approach to other studies, I would be interested in a larger treatment of how overlapping DBLα repertoires would impact MOIvar estimates. Is there a definable upper bound above which the method is unreliable? Alternatively, can repertoire overlap be incorporated into the MOI estimator? 

      This is a very good point and one we now discuss further in our revision. There is no predefined upper bound one can present a priori. Intuitively, the approach to estimate MOI would appear to breakdown as overlap moves away from extremely low values, and therefore for locations with low transmission intensity.  Interestingly, we have observed that this is not the case in our paper by Labbe et al. (Labbé et al., 2023) where we used model simulations in a gradient of three transmission intensities, from high to low values. The original _var_coding method performed well across the gradient. This robustness may arise from a nonlinear and fast transition from low to high overlap that is accompanied by MOI changing rapidly from primarily multiclonal (MOI > 1) to monoclonal (MOI = 1). This matter clearly needs to be investigated further, including ways to extend the estimation to explicitly include the distribution of overlap.

      Smaller comments:

      - Figure 1 provides confidence intervals for the prevalence estimates, but these aren't carried through on the other plots (and Figure 5 has lost CIs for both metrics). The relationship between prevalence and diversity is one of the interesting points in this paper, and it would be helpful to have CIs for both metrics when they are directly compared. 

      Based on the reviewer’s advice we have revised both Figure 4 and Figure 5, to include the missing uncertainty intervals. The specific approach for each quantity is described in the corresponding caption.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The manuscript coins a term "the census population size" which they define from the diversity of malaria parasites observed in the human community. They use it to explore changes in parasite diversity in more than 2000 people in Ghana following different control interventions. 

      Strengths: 

      This is a good demonstration of how genetic information can be used to augment routinely recorded epidemiological and entomological data to understand the dynamics of malaria and how it is controlled. The genetic information does add to our understanding, though by how much is currently unclear (in this setting it says the same thing as age-stratified parasite prevalence), and its relevance moving forward will depend on the practicalities and cost of the data collection and analysis. Nevertheless, this is a great dataset with good analysis and a good attempt to understand more about what is going on in the parasite population. 

      Census population size is complementary to parasite prevalence where the former gives a measure of the “parasite population size”, and the latter describes the “proportion of infected hosts”.  The reason we see similar trends for the “genetic information” (i.e., census population size) and “age-specific parasite prevalence” is because we identify all samples for var_coding based on the microscopy (i.e., all microscopy positive _P. falciparum isolates). But what is more relevant here is the relative percentage change in parasite prevalence and census population size following the IRS intervention. To make this point clearer in the revised manuscript we have updated Figure 4 and included additional panels plotting this percentage change from the 2012 baseline, for both census population size and prevalence (Figure 4EF). Overall, we see a greater percentage change in 2014 (and 2015), relative to the 2012 baseline, for census parasite population size vs. parasite prevalence (Figure 4EF) as a consequence of the significant changes in distributions of MOI following the IRS intervention (Figure 3). As discussed in the Results following the deployment of IRS in 2014 census population size decreased by 72.5% relative to the 2012 baseline survey (pre-IRS) whereas parasite prevalence only decreased by 54.5%. 

      With respect to the reviewer’s comment on “practicalities and cost”, var_coding has been used to successfully amplify _P. falciparum DNA collected as DBS that have been stored for more than 5-years from both clinical and lower density asymptomatic infection, without the additional step and added cost of sWGA ($8 to $32 USD per isolates, for costing estimates see (LaVerriere et al., 2022; Tessema et al., 2020)), which is currently required by other molecular surveillance methods (Jacob et al., 2021; LaVerriere et al., 2022; Oyola et al., 2016). _Var_coding involves a single PCR per isolate using degenerate primers, where a large number of isolates can be multiplexed into a single pool for amplicon sequencing.  Thus, the overall costs for incorporating molecular surveillance with _var_coding are mainly driven by the number of PCRs/clean-ups, the number samples indexed per sequencing run, and the NGS technology used (discussed in more detail in our publication Ghansah et al. (Ghansah et al., 2023)). Previous work has shown that _var_coding can be use both locally and globally for molecular surveillance, without the need to be customized or updated, thus it can be fairly easily deployed in malaria endemic regions (Chen et al., 2011; Day et al., 2017; Rougeron et al., 2017; Ruybal-Pesántez et al., 2022, 2021; Tonkin-Hill et al., 2021).

      Weaknesses: 

      Overall the manuscript is well-written and generally comprehensively explained. Some terms could be clarified to help the reader and I had some issues with a section of the methods and some of the more definitive statements given the evidence supporting them. 

      Thank you for the overall positive assessment. On addressing the “issues with a section of the methods” and “some of the more definitive statements given the evidence supporting them”, it is impossible to do so however, without an explicit indication of which methods and statements the reviewer is referring to. Hopefully, the answers to the detailed comments and questions of reviewers 1 and 2 address any methodological concerns (i.e., in the Materials and Methods and Results). To the issue of “definitive statements”, etc. we are unable to respond without further information.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Line 273: there is a reference to a figure which supports the empirical distribution of repertoire given MOI = 1, but the figure does not appear to exist.

      We now included the correct figure for the repertoire size distribution as Figure supplement 3 (previously published in Labbé et al (Labbé et al., 2023)). This figure was accidently forgotten when the manuscript was submitted for review, we thank the reviewer for bringing this to our attention.

      Line 299: while this likely makes little difference, an insignificant result from a Kolmogorov-Smirnov test doesn't tell you if the distributions are the same, it only means there is not enough evidence to determine they are different (i.e. fail to reject the null). Also, what does the "mean MOI difference" column in supplementary table 3 mean? 

      The mean MOI difference is the difference in the mean value between the pairwise comparison of the true population-level MOI distribution, that of the population-level MOI estimates from either pooling the maximum a posteriori (MAP) estimates per individual host or the mixture distribution, or that of the population-level MOI estimates from different prior choices. This is now clarified as requested in the Table supplements 3 - 6. 

      Figure 4: how are the confidence intervals for the estimated number of var repertoires calculated? Also should include horizontal error bars for prevalence measures.

      The confidence intervals were calculated based on a bootstrap approach. We re-sampled 10,000 replicates from the original population-level MOI distribution with replacement. Each resampled replicate is the same size as the original sample. We then derive the 95% CI based on the distribution of the mean MOI of those resampled replicates. This is now clarified as requested in the Figure 4 caption (as well as Table supplement 7 footnotes). In addition, we have also updated Figure 4AB and have included the 95% CI for all measures for clarity. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      -  I would like to see a plot like Supplemental Figure 8 for the upsA DBLα repertoire size. 

      The upsA repertoire size for each survey and by age group has now been provided as requested in Figure supplement 5AB. 

      -  Supplemental Table 2 is cut off in the pdf. 

      We have now resolved this issue so that the Table supplement 2 is no longer cut off.  

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      The manuscript terms the phrase "census population size". To me, the census is all about the number of individuals, not necessarily their diversity. I appreciate that there is no simple term for this, and I imagine the authors have considered many alternatives, but could it be clearer to say the "genetic census population size"? For example, I found the short title not particularly descriptive "Impact of IRS and SMC on census population size", which certainly didn't make me think of parasite diversity.

      Please see our response to comment (2) of reviewer 1. We prefer not to add “genetic” to the phrase as the distinction from effective population size from population genetics is important, and the quantity we are after is an ecological one. 

      The authors do not currently say much about the potential biases in the genetic data and how this might influence results. It seems likely that because (i) patients with sub-microscopic parasitaemia were not sampled and (ii) because a moderate number of (likely low density) samples failed to generate genetic data, that the observed MOI is an overestimate. I'd be interested to hear the authors' thoughts about how this could be overcome or taken into account in the future. 

      We thank the reviewer for this this comment and agree that this is an interesting area for further consideration. However, based on research from the Day Lab that is currently under review (Tan et al. 2024, under review), the estimated MOI using the Bayesian approach is likely not an “overestimate” but rather an “underestimate”. In this research by Tan et al. (2024) isolate MOI was estimated and compared using different initial whole blood volumes (e.g., 1, 10, 50, 100 uL) for the gDNA extraction. Using _var_coding and comparing these different volumes it was found that MOI was significantly “underestimated” when small blood volumes were used for the gDNA extraction, i.e., there was a ~3-fold increase in median MOI between 1μL and 100μL blood. Ultimately these findings will allow us to make computational corrections so that more accurate estimates of MOI can be obtained from the DBS in the future.

      The authors do not make much of LLIN use and for me, this can explain some of the trends. The first survey was conducted soon after a mass distribution whereas the last was done at least a year after (when fewer people would have been using the nets which are older and less effective). We have also seen a rise in pyrethroid resistance in the mosquito populations of the area which could further diminish the LLIN activity. This difference in LLIN efficacy between the first and last survey could explain similar prevalence, yet lower diversity (in Figures 4B/5). However, it also might mean that statements such as Line 478 "This is indicative of a loss of immunity during IRS which may relate to the observed loss of var richness, especially the many rare types" need to be tapered as the higher prevalence observed in this age group could be caused by lower LLIN efficacy at the time of the last survey, not loss of immunity (though both could be true).  

      We thank the reviewer for this question and agree that (i) LLIN usage and (ii) pyrethroid resistance are important factors to consider. 

      (i) Over the course of this study self-reported LLIN usage the previous night remained high across all age groups in each of the surveys (≥ 83.5%), in fact more participants reported sleeping under an LLIN in 2017 (96.8%) following the discontinuation of IRS compared to the 2012 baseline survey (89.1%). This increase in LLIN usage in 2017 is likely a result of several factors including a rebound in the local vector population making LLINs necessary again, increased community education and/or awareness on the importance of using LLINs, among others. Information on the LLINs (i.e., PermaNet 2.0, Olyset, or DawaPlus 2.0) distributed and participant reported usage the previous night has now been included in the Materials and Methods as requested by the reviewer.

      (ii) As to the reviewer’s question on increased in pyrethroid resistance in Ghana over the study period, research undertaken by our entomology collaborators (Noguchi Memorial Insftute for Medical Research: Profs. S. Dadzie and M. Appawu; and Navrongo Health Research Centre:  Dr. V. Asoala) has shown that pyrethroid resistance is a major problem across the country, including the Upper East Region. Preliminary studies from Bongo District (2013 - 2015), were undertaken to monitor for mutations in the voltage gated sodium channel gene that have been associated with knockdown resistance to pyrethroids and DDT in West Africa (kdr-w). Through this analysis the homozygote resistance kdr-w allele (RR) was found in 90% of An. gambiae s.s. samples tested from Bongo, providing evidence of high pyrethroid resistance in Bongo District dating back to 2013, i.e., prior to the IRS intervention (S. Dadzie, M. Appawu, personal communication). Although we do not have data in Bongo District on kdr-w from 2017 (i.e., post-IRS), we can hypothesize that pyrethroid resistance likely did not decline in the area, given the widespread deployment and use of LLINs.

      Thus, given this information that (i) self-reported LLIN usage remained high in all surveys (≥ 83.5%), and that (ii) there was evidence of high pyrethroid resistance in 2013 (i.e., kdr-w (RR) _~_90%), the rebound in prevalence observed for the older age groups (i.e., adolescents and adults) in 2017 is therefore best explained by a loss of immunity.

      I must confess I got a little lost with some of the Bayesian model section methods and the figure supplements. Line 272 reads "The measurement error is simply the repertoire size distribution, that is, the distribution of the number of non-upsA DBLα types sequenced given MOI = 1, which is empirically available (Figure supplement 3)." This does not appear correct as this figure is measuring kl divergence. If this is not a mistake in graph ordering please consider explaining the rationale for why this graph is being used to justify your point. 

      We now included the correct figure for the repertoire size distribution as Figure supplement 3 (previously published in Labbé et al (Labbé et al., 2023)). This figure was accidently forgotten when the manuscript was submitted for review, we thank the reviewer for bringing our attention to this matter. We hope that the inclusion of this Figure as well as a more detailed description of the Bayesian approach helps to makes this section in the Materials and Methods clearer for the reader. 

      I was somewhat surprised that the choice of prior for estimating the MOI distribution at the population level did not make much difference. To me, the negative binomial distribution makes much more sense. I was left wondering, as you are only measuring MOI in positive individuals, whether you used zero truncated Poisson and zero truncated negative binomial distributions, and if not, whether this was a cause of a lack of difference between uniform and other priors. 

      Thank you for the relevant question. We have indeed considered different priors and the robustness of our  estimates to this choice and have now better described this in the text. We focused on individuals who had a confirmed microscopic asymptomatic P. falciparum infection for our MOI estimation, as median P. falciparum densities were overall low in this population during each survey (i.e., median ≤ 520 parasites/µL, see Table supplement 1). Thus, we used either a uniform prior excluding zero or a zero truncated negative binomial distribution when exploring the impact of priors on the final population-level MOI distribution.  A uniform prior and a zero-truncated negative binomial distribution with parameters within the range typical of high-transmission endemic regions (higher mean MOI with tails around higher MOI values) produce similar MOI  estimates at both the individual and population level. However, when setting the parameter range of the zero-truncated negative binomial to be of those in low transmission endemic regions where the empirical MOI distribution centers around mono-clonal infections with the majority of MOI = 1 or 2 (mean MOI » 1.5, no tail around higher MOI values), the final population-level MOI distribution does deviate more from that assuming the aforementioned prior and parameter choices. The final individual- and population-level MOI estimates are not sensitive to the specifics of the prior MOI distribution as long as this distribution captures the tail around higher MOI values with above-zero probability.   

      The high MOI in children <5yrs in 2017 (immediately after SMC) is very interesting. Any thoughts on how/why? 

      This result indicates that although the prevalence of asymptomatic P. falciparum infections remained significantly lower for the younger children targeted by SMC in 2017 compared 2012, they still carried multiclonal infections, as the reviewer has pointed out (Figure 3B). Importantly this upward shift in the MOI distributions (and median MOI) was observed in all age groups in 2017, not just the younger children, and provides evidence that transmission intensity in Bongo has rebounded in 2017, 32-months a er the discontinuation of IRS.  This increase in MOI for younger children at first glance may seem to be surprising, but instead likely shows the limitations of SMC to clear and/or supress the establishment of newly acquired infections, particularly at the end of the transmission season following the final cycle of SMC (i.e., end of September 2017 in Bongo District; NMEP/GHS, personal communication) when the posttreatment prophylactic effects of SMC would have waned (Chotsiri et al., 2022).  

      Line 521 in the penultimate paragraph says "we have analysed only low density...." should this not be "moderate" density, as low density infections might not be detected? The density range itself is not reported in the manuscript so could be added. 

      In Table supplement 1 we have provided the median, including the inter-quartile range, across each survey by age group. For the revision we have now provided the density min-max range, as requested by the reviewer. Finally, we have revised the statement in the discussion so that it now reads “….we have analysed low- to moderate-density, chronic asymptomatic infections (see Table supplement 1)……”.   

      Data availability - From the text the full breakdown of the epidemiological survey does not appear to be available, just a summary of defined age bounds in the SI. Provision of these data (with associated covariates such as parasite density and host characteristics linked to genetic samples) would facilitate more in-depth secondary analyses. 

      To address this question, we have updated the “Data availability statement” section with the following statement: “All data associated with this study are available in the main text, the Supporting Information, or upon reasonable request for research purposes to the corresponding author, Prof. Karen Day (karen.day@unimelb.edu.au).”  

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study makes an interesting finding: a polyunsaturated fatty acid, Lin-Glycine, increases the conductance of KCNQ1/KCNE1 channels by stabilizing a state of the selectivity filter that allows K+ conduction. The stabilization of a conducting state appears well supported by single-channel analysis, though some method details are missing. The linkage to PUFA action through the selectivity filter is supported by the disruption of PUFA effects by mutation of residues which change conformation in two KCNQ1 structures from the literature. Claims about differences in Lin-Glycine binding to these two structural conformations seem to lack clear support, thus the claim seems speculative that PUFAs increase Gmax by binding to a crevice in the pore domain. A potentially definitive functional experiment is conducted by single-channel recordings with selectivity filter domain mutation Y315F which ablates the Lin-Glycine effect on Gmax. However, this appears to be an n=1 experiment. Overall, the major claim of the abstract is supported: "... that the selectivity filter in KCNQ1 is normally unstable ... and that the PUFA-induced increase in Gmax is caused by a stabilization of the selectivity filter in an open-conductive state." However, the claim in the abstract that selectivity filter instability "explains the low open probability" seems too general.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments, and we would like to address the main concern regarding the single channels. We now state the number of experiments used for the single channel analysis. We agree that the claim in the abstract seems too general and we now made it more specific to our findings.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Golluscio et al. address one of the mechanisms of IKs (KCNQ1/KCNE1) channel upregulation by polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA). PUFA is known to upregulate KCNQ1 and KCNQ1/KCNE1 channels by two mechanisms: one shifts the voltage dependence to the negative direction, and the other increases the maximum conductance (Gmax). While the first mechanism is known to affect the voltage sensor equilibrium by charge effect, the second mechanism is less known. By applying the single-channel recordings and mutagenesis on the putative binding sites (most of them related to the selectivity filter), they concluded that the selectivity filter is stabilized to a conductive state by PUFA binding.

      Strengths:

      They mainly used single-channel recordings and directly assessed the behavior of the selectivity filter. The method is straightforward and convincing enough to support their claims.

      Weaknesses:

      The structural model they used is the KCNQ1 channel without KCNE1 because KCNQ1/KCNE1 channel complex is not available yet. As the binding site of PUFAs might overlap with KCNE1, it is not very clear how PUFA binds to the KCNQ1 channel in the presence of KCNE1.

      Using other previous PUFA-related KCNQ1 mutants will strengthen their conclusions. For example, the Gmax of the K326E mutant is reduced by PUFA binding. Examining whether K326E shows reduced numbers of non-empty sweeps in the single-channel recordings will be a good addition.

      We thank the reviewer for the public review. We would like to address the main weak points of the comments. As a structure of KCNQ1/KCNE1 in complex is not available yet, we used KCNQ1 alone. We believe that the PUFA and KCNE1 binding sites will not overlap as we previously presented data in agreement with the idea that KCNE1 rotates the VSD relative the PD (Wu et al., 2021). This would leave enough space for both PUFA and KCNE1, so that PUFA can bind to the crevice (K326 and D301) without competing with KCNE1.  We appreciate the suggestion of adding single-channel recordings of K326E mutant and we agree it would make a valuable addition to strengthen our conclusions. However, single channel recordings for KCNQ1 are very challenging and time consuming to obtain, so we would like to keep this in consideration for future studies.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This manuscript reveals an important mechanism of KCNQ1/IKs channel gating such that the open state of the pore is unstable and undergoes intermittent closed and open conformations. PUFA enhances the maximum open probability of IKs by binding to a crevice adjacent to the pore and stabilizing the open conformation. This mechanism is supported by convincing single-channel recordings that show empty and open channel traces and the ratio of such traces is affected by PUFA. In addition, mutations of the pore residues alter PUFA effects, convincingly supporting that PUFA alters the interactions among these pore residues.

      Strengths:

      The data are of high quality and the description is clear.

      Weaknesses:

      Some comments about the presentation.

      (1) The structural illustrations in this manuscript in general need to be more clarified.

      (2) The manuscript heavily relies on the comparison between the S4-down and S4-up structures (Figures 3, 4, and 7) to illustrate the difference between the extracellular side of the pore and to lead to the hypothesis of open-state stability being affected by PUFA. This may mislead the readers to think that the closed conformation of the channel in the up-state is the same as that in the down-state.

      We thank the reviewer for the public review, and we would like to address the comments about the presentation. We agree that the structural illustrations need to be more detailed, and we amended our previous illustrations. We have now included a new Figure 3 with a more detailed legend and a new Figure 4 that includes more information, such as the main chain of the whole selectivity filter and surrounding peptide.

      We have now added some clarification regarding the structures of KCNQ1 with S4-down and S4-up to clarify that the closed conformation of the channel in the up-state is different from that in the down-state. We also emphasize this difference in the Discussion.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) Explain more thoroughly how the single-channel recordings were done:

      - How was Lin-Glycine applied in these experiments? The patch configuration is unclear. Was Lin-Glycine added to the patch pipette? If not, why is Lin-Glycine expected to reach the proposed binding site in the outer leaflet? Were controls time-matched applications of vehicles with ethanol?

      Data were collected using the cell attached patch configuration to minimize disruption to the patch and avoid rundown problems due to the loss of PIP2. Lin-Glycine was solubilized in DMSO and the desired concentration was added directly to the bath. We had no a priori reason to know if the PUFA would reach the proposed binding site but the consistency at which there was an increase in channel activity 5-10 minutes after addition to the bath convinced us that it was indeed reaching the binding site. This time frame fits with our prior experience with mefenamic acid effects on single channels (Wang et al 2020). The mefenamic acid binding site is external to the membrane so the drug must enter the cell and cross the patch membrane to affect channel activity. In addition, shown below is a previous recording from our lab, where nothing was added to the bath over a 55-minute time while recording consecutive files.  This shows the typical behavior of IKs, with activity tending to cluster with a few active sweeps in between many blank sweeps.  The behavior in this patch contrasts with that seen in the presence of Lin-glycine, where the clusters of activity spread over an increasing number of sweeps.

      In addition, we have previously shown that 0.1% DMSO (concentration used in the present study) does not affect the GV of KCNQ1 but there is a non-significant decrease in tail current amplitudes of about 14% (Eldstrom et al., 2021). As such we do not think that the effects we see with Lin-Glycine, with an increase in activity can be explained by vehicle effects alone.

      Author response image 1.

       

      We added some more details in the section Material and Method.

      - How well the replicates match the representative data in Figures 1, S1, and 6 is unclear (except for average current and Po in the last second of the traces from Figure 1). Are the results in Fig 6 n=1? 

      We now show in a data supplement that 3 replicates were used to access the change in channel activity upon addition of Lin-glycine.

      - Diary plots (as in Werry et al. 2013) and additional descriptions of the timeline of Lin-Glycine application and analyses could add credibility to interpretations. 

      We added a Diary plot of for the First latency to open in Supplementary Figure S1.

      - Amounts of plasmids and lipofectamine that were used in transfections are missing. 

      We added the information in Material and Method section as follow:

      “Single channel currents were recorded from transiently transfected mouse ltk- fibroblast cells (LM cells) using 1.5 mL Lipofectamine 2000 (Thermo Fisher Scientific). Cells were transfected with 1.5 mg of pcDNA3 containing a linked KCNE1-KCNQ1 construct 20, to ensure fully KCNE1-saturated complexes, in addition to a plasmid containing green fluorescent protein (GFP) to identify transfected cells”

      - Inclusion/exclusion criteria for patches analyzed are missing. 

      We added the information in Material and Method section as follow:

      “Only patches that were largely free of endogenous currents and had few channels, such that there were several blank sweeps to average for use for leak subtraction, were analyzed.”

      - Whether blinding, randomization, or pre-determined n values were employed is not mentioned. 

      No blinding, randomization or pre-determined n values were employed.

      - Analysis methods are sometimes unclear: How was Po calculated? Representative sweeps appear to have been leak and capacitance subtracted. How was that done? 

      Po was estimated from all-point amplitude histogram as follow: Po = Sum (iN/(iestimateNtotal), where N is the number of points for a specific current i in the histogram, iestimate = 0.4 pA from the peak of the histogram, and Ntotal = 10,000 is the total number of points in the last second of the trace. p = 0.75 ± 0.12 (n = 8) and p = 0.87 ± 0.04 (n = 3) for Control and Lin-Glycine, respectively.

      Leak and capacitance were subtracted with averaged empty sweeps.

      (2) The change of cells used for whole cell vs single channel (oocytes vs mouse ltk- fibroblast cells) could be discussed. These cells likely have different lipids in their membranes. Is there any other evidence that PUFAs have the same effects on KCNE1-KCNQ1 in these cells? Does the V0.5 shift? 

      A similar effect on Gmax, in both oocytes and mouse ltk-fibroblast cells, is shown in Figure 1 and 2. In Figure 2, the shift in latency suggests a shift in V0.5, suggesting the binding of PUFA to Site I.

      (3) The manuscript associates selectivity filter changes with S4 being up or down. It would help to clarify whether there was a change in [K+] in the two KCNQ1 structures used for modeling, as Mandala and MacKinnon (2023) state: "We note that one interesting difference between the two up structures regards the occupancy of K+ ions in the selectivity filter (SI Appendix, Fig. S5 C and D). In the polarized sample, due to the low extravesicular concentration of K+, density is only visible at the first and third positions in the selectivity filter, while density is present at all four positions in the unpolarized sample. Similar differences were observed in our previous study on Eag (20) and are qualitatively consistent with crystal structures of KcsA solved under symmetrical high and low K+ concentrations (45)." 

      Our studies states that there are some differences in the two structures with S4 in up-state and S4 in down-state and a reorganization of the pore. As for the change in [K+] occupancy in the two structures, we are not sure as our knowledge only come from what stated in Mandala and Mackinnon (2023). Mandala and MacKinnon did not discuss the selectivity filter in the down state structure in their paper and there are no K ions in any of their pdb files. So, we don’t know how many K+ ions there are in the down state.

      (4) The manuscript states " PUFAs increase Gmax by binding to a crevice in the pore domain" and "we elucidated that Lin-Glycine binds to a crevice between K326 and D301", this seems speculative without any actual binding studies or concrete structural evidence. A quantitative structural modeling analysis of whether changes in the crevice change the theoretical binding of Lin-Glycine might provide a stronger basis for speculation. 

      We toned down these statements in Results and Discussion to:

      “Crevice residues affect PUFA ability to increase Gmax"

      And

      Discussion: “We tested the hypothesis that the effect of Lin-Glycine involved conformational changes in the selectivity filter following PUFA binding to two residues K326 and D301 at the pore domain. Those residues delimit a small crevice that seems to change in size in different structures with S4 up or S4 down (Figure 3, D-F).”

      (5) The several figures detailing differences in selectivity filter conformation in the KCNQ1 structures are interesting and relevant in that they identify the movement of residues such as Y315 that, when mutated, ablate Lin-Glycine effect on Gmax. It would help to clarify whether T312 and I313 also move between the two selectivity filter conformations. 

      From the morph of the selectivity filter in the two conformations, it is noticeable that the changes and residue movements involve only residues at the upper part of the selectivity filter (including Y315 and D317). T312 and I313, are in the lower part of the selectivity filter and do not seem to move or rotate from their position between the two conformations of the selectivity filter.

      We now include a Supplementary Figures S3 and S4 that show the extent of movement of each residue in the pore region and a short description of this in the Results section.

      (6) The claim in the abstract that selectivity filter instability "explains the low open probability" seems too general. Lin-Glycine seems to increase the likelihood of conduction by 2.5-fold, but it was not clear whether open probability ceases to be low or whether other mechanisms also keep Po low. 

      We reword this sentence to “Our results suggest that the selectivity filter in KCNQ1 is normally unstable, contributing to the low open probability, and that the PUFA-induced increase in Gmax is caused by a stabilization of the selectivity filter in an open-conductive state..”

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) While all the electrophysiological recordings used KCNQ1/KCNE1 channels, all the structural models they used are KCNQ1 channels (without KCNE1). I know it is because the KCNQ1/KCNE1 complex structure is unavailable. However, according to their previous results, KCNQ1 alone is also upregulated by PUFAs. I am curious about what the single-channel recordings of KCNQ1 alone look like in the presence and absence of PUFAs. 

      We would love to include single-channel recordings of KCNQ1, but they are extremely hard to measure due to the small size and flickering nature of the channel.

      (2) As mentioned above, we do not have the KCNQ1/KCNE1 structure yet have the KCNQ1/KCNE3 structures (Sun and MacKinnon, Cell, 2020). According to the PDBs (6V00 or 6V01), the clevis (K326 and D301) looks covered by KCNE3. Is it true that PUFAs do not upregulate KCNQ1/KCNE3? If true, KCNE1 may not cover the clevis, so the binding mode should differ from the KCNQ1/KCNE3 structures. Please discuss the possible blocking of the clevis by KCNE proteins. 

      We previously presented data that is consistent with that KCNE1 rotates the VSD towards the PD (Wu et al., 2021). This mechanism would leave room for PUFA and KCNE1, so that PUFA can bind to the crevice (K326 and D301). So we think that this rotation will prevent PUFA and KCNE1 from competing for the same space. As for KCNQ1/KCNE3 we currently do not have any evidence about a possible upregulation by PUFA.

      (3) In the cryoEM structure with S4 resting (Figure 3F), the clevis looks too narrow for PUFA to bind. Is there any (either previous or current) evidence supporting that PUFA binding is state-dependent? 

      Because PUFAs integrate first into the bilayer and then diffuse towards its binding site on the channel, it would be hard to test a state-dependence of the binding. In addition, once PUFAs are in the bilayer, the rate of binding/unbinding is quite fast (within the ns range according to our previous MD simulations), whereas opening/closing rate is very slow (100 ms-s). So, the combination of slow wash in/washout, fast binding/unbinding, and slow opening/closing would make it very difficult to test the state-dependence of the binding by using a fast perfusion or different voltage protocols.  

      (4) In the previous report (Liin et al. Cell Reports, 2018), K326 is the most critical site for PUFA binding. Why the K326 mutants are not included in the current study? I also would like to see the single-channel recordings of the K326E mutant, which showed a smaller Gmax. Does the PUFA application reduce the probability of non-empty traces in this mutant? 

      As Liin et al. reported, mutations of K326 reduce the ability of PUFA to increase the Gmax. In this work, we wanted to gain further biophysical information on the mechanism that leads to an increase in Gmax, considering the knowledge we had from work conducted in our lab previously. We therefore focused here on residues downstream of K326 that we think are important for inducing the conformational changes at the selectivity filter. We agree that single channel experiments on K326E would be very interesting but that has to be for a future study.

      Minor points 

      (1) Liin et al. used S209F (Po of 0.4) and I204F (Po of 0.04) mutants. Their single-channel recordings would be a good addition. 

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. However, single channels analysis on S209F and I204F were previously shown (Eldstrom et al., 2010).

      (2) I would like to see how the Site I mutations (R2Q/Q3R) affect (or do not affect) the single-channel recordings (open probability and latency). 

      Thank you for the excellent suggestion. It would be interesting to assess the behavior of the channel when mutations occur at Site I. However, we think this information will not add any more detail to this study as we focus here our attention on the mechanism for Gmax increase. Single channels recordings are extremely hard to get, therefore we chose to include only mutations at Site II for this study.

      (3) I would like the G-V curves for all the mutations at 0 and 20 uM of Lin-Glycine (Figure 3C and Figures 5A and B). 

      We now added the G-V curves in Supplementary Figure S7.

      (4) I assume all the PUFAs have a similar effect on the selectivity filter, but a few other examples of PUFAs would be nice to see. 

      We anticipate that PUFAs and analogues with similar properties to Lin-Glycine would increasing the Gmax by a similar mechanism, because other PUFAs have been previously shown to increase the Gmax (Bohannon et al., 2020).

      (5) Although the probabilities of non-empty sweeps are written in the manuscript, bar graph presentations would be a nice addition to Figures 2 and 6. 

      We have added bar graphs of non-empty sweeps for Fig 2 and 6 in.

      (6) Is there no statistical significance for D317E and T309S in Figure 5A? 

      No statistical significance for D317E and T309S

      (7) There is no reference to Figure 7 in the manuscript. 

      A reference to Figure 7 has been added to the manuscript in the following paragraph.

      “Taken together, our results suggest that the binding of PUFA to Site II increases Gmax by promoting a series of interactions that stabilize the channel pore in the conductive state. For instance, we speculate that in the conductive state, hydrogen bonds between W304-D317 and W305-Y315, which are likely absent in the non-conductive conformation of KCNQ1, are created and that PUFA binding to Site II favors the transition towards the conductive state of the channel (Figure 7)”

      Reviewer #3:

      (1) Clarify the structural figures. Figures 3 D, E, and F - explain what the colors indicate. 

      A more detailed description of Figure 3 has been added to the legend.

      “D, E and F) Structure of crevice between S5 and S6 in KCNQ1 with S4 up (D and E) and S4 down (F). Residues that surround the crevice from S6 shown in blue (K326, T327, S330, V334) and from S5 in red (D301, A300, L303, F270). Remaining KCNQ1 residues shown in purple…, linoleic acid (LIN: gold color)”

      Fig 4. Only side chains of the residues are shown, making it hard to relate the figure to the familiar K channel selectivity filter. The main chain of the entire selectivity should be shown to orient readers to the familiar view of the K channel selectivity filter. In addition, the structures shown are only part of the selectivity filter, it should be specified which part of the selectivity filter is shown. These will also help the discussion at the bottom of page 10 and subsequent text. 

      We now provide a new Figure 4 with more details such as the main chain of the whole selectivity filter and surrounding peptide.

      (2) Cautions should be stated clearly when the structural comparison between the S4-up and S4-down is made that the structure of the pore when it is closed with S4-up may differ from the structure of the pore with S4-down. 

      We now state in addition “Clearly, there will be other differences in the pore domain between structures with activated and resting VSDs, for example the state of the activation gate.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors did a great job addressing the weaknesses I raised in the previous round of review, except on the generalizability of the current result in the larger context of multi-attribute decision-making. It is not really a weakness of the manuscript but more of a limitation of the studied topic, so I want to keep this comment for public readers.

      The reward magnitude and probability information are displayed using rectangular bars of different colors and orientations. Would that bias subjects to choose an additive rule instead of the multiplicative rule? Also, could the conclusion be extended to other decision contexts such as quality and price, where a multiplicative rule is hard to formulate?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. With regards whether the current type of stimuli may have biased participants to use an additive rule rather, we believe many other forms of stimuli for representing choice attributes would be equally likely to cause a similar bias. This is because the additive strategy is an inherently simplistic and natural way to integrate different pieces of non-interacting information. More importantly, even though it is easy to employ an additive strategy, most participants still demonstrated some levels of employing the multiplicative rule. However, it would indeed be interesting for future studies to explore whether the current composite model remains dominant in situations where the optimal solutions require an additive or subtractive rule, such as those concerning quality and price.

      “The same would apply even with a different choice of cues as long as the information is conveyed by two independent visual features.”

      “While the additive strategy is a natural and simple approach for integrating non-interacting pieces of information, to some extent, participants also used the multiplicative strategy that was optimal in the current experiment. A general question for such composite models is whether people mix two strategies in a consistent manner on every trial or whether there is some form of probabilistic selection occurring between the two strategies on each trial such that only one strategy is used on any given trial while, on average, one strategy is more probable than the other. It would also be interesting to examine whether a composite model is appropriate in contexts where the optimal solution is additive or subtractive, such as those concerning quality and price.”


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The current study provided a follow-up analysis using published datasets focused on the individual variability of both the distraction effect (size and direction) and the attribute integration style, as well as the association between the two. The authors tried to answer the question of whether the multiplicative attribute integration style concurs with a more pronounced and positively oriented distraction effect.

      Strengths:

      The analysis extensively examined the impacts of various factors on decision accuracy, with a particular focus on using two-option trials as control trials, following the approach established by Cao & Tsetsos (2022). The statistical significance results were clearly reported.

      The authors meticulously conducted supplementary examinations, incorporating the additional term HV+LV into GLM3. Furthermore, they replaced the utility function from the expected value model with values from the composite model.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive response and are pleased that the reviewer found our report interesting.

      Reviewer #1 Comment 1

      Weaknesses:

      There are several weaknesses in terms of theoretical arguments and statistical analyses.

      First, the manuscript suggests in the abstract and at the beginning of the introduction that the study reconciled the "different claims" about "whether distraction effect operates at the level of options' component attributes rather than at the level of their overall value" (see line 13-14), but the analysis conducted was not for that purpose. Integrating choice attributes in either an additive or multiplicative way only reflects individual differences in combining attributes into the overall value. The authors seemed to assume that the multiplicative way generated the overall value ("Individuals who tended to use a multiplicative approach, and hence focused on overall value", line 20-21), but such implicit assumption is at odds with the statement in line 77-79 that people may use a simpler additive rule to combine attributes, which means overall value can come from the additive rule.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have made adjustments to the manuscript to ensure that the message delivered within this manuscript is consistent. Within this manuscript, our primary focus is on the different methods of value integration in which the overall value is computed (i.e., additive, multiplicative, or both), rather than the interaction at the individual level of attributes. However, we do not exclude the possibility that the distractor effect may occur at multiple levels. Nevertheless, in light of the reviewer’s comment, we agree that we should focus the argument on whether distractors facilitate or impair decision making and downplay the separate argument about the level at which distractor effects operate. We have now revised the abstract:

      “It is widely agreed that people make irrational decisions in the presence of irrelevant distractor options. However, there is little consensus on whether decision making is facilitated or impaired by the presence of a highly rewarding distractor or whether the distraction effect operates at the level of options’ component attributes rather than at the level of their overall value. To reconcile different claims, we argue that it is important to incorporate consideration of the diversity of people’s ways of decision making. We focus on a recent debate over whether people combine choice attributes in an additive or multiplicative way. Employing a multi-laboratory dataset investigating the same decision making paradigm, we demonstrated that people used a mix of both approaches and the extent to which approach was used varied across individuals. Critically, we identified that this variability was correlated with the effect of the distractor on decision making. Individuals who tended to use a multiplicative approach to compute value, showed a positive distractor effect. In contrast, in individuals who tended to use an additive approach, a negative distractor effect (divisive normalisation) was prominent. These findings suggest that the distractor effect is related to how value is constructed, which in turn may be influenced by task and subject specificities. Our work concurs with recent behavioural and neuroscience findings that multiple distractor effects co-exist.” (Lines 12-26)

      Furthermore, we acknowledge that the current description of the additive rule could be interpreted in several ways. The current additive utility model described as:

      where  is the options’ utility,  is the reward magnitude,  is the probability, and  is the magnitude/probability weighing ratio . If we perform comparison between values according to this model (i.e., HV against LV), we would arrive at the following comparison:

      If we rearrange (1), we will arrive at:

      While equations (1) and (2) are mathematically equivalent, equation (1) illustrates the interpretation where the comparison of the utilities occurs after value integration and forming an overall value. On the other hand, equation (2) can be broadly interpreted as the comparison of individual attributes in the absence of an overall value estimate for each option. Nonetheless, while we do not exclude the possibility that the distractor effect may occur at multiple levels, we have made modifications to the main manuscript employ more consistently a terminology referring to different methods of value estimation while recognizing that our empirical results are compatible with both interpretations.

      Reviewer #1 Comment 2

      The second weakness is sort of related but is more about the lack of coherent conceptual understanding of the "additive rule", or "distractor effect operates at the attribute level". In an assertive tone (lines 77-80), the manuscript suggests that a weighted sum integration procedure of implementing an "additive rule" is equal to assuming that people compare pairs of attributes separately, without integration. But they are mechanistically distinct. The additive rule (implemented using the weighted sum rule to combine probability and magnitude within each option and then applying the softmax function) assumes value exists before comparing options. In contrast, if people compare pairs of attributes separately, preference forms based on the within-attribute comparisons. Mathematically these two might be equivalent only if no extra mechanisms (such as inhibition, fluctuating attention, evidence accumulation, etc) are included in the within-attribute comparison process, which is hardly true in the three-option decision.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. As described in our response to Reviewer #1 Comment 1, we are aware and acknowledge that there may be multiple possible interpretations of the additive rule. We also agree with the reviewer that there may be additional mechanisms that are involved in three- or even two- option decisions, but these would require additional studies to tease apart. Another motivation for the approach used here, which does not explicitly model the extra mechanisms the reviewer refers to was due to the intention of addressing and integrating findings from previous studies using the same dataset [i.e. (Cao & Tsetsos, 2022; Chau et al., 2020)]. Lastly, regardless of the mechanistic interpretation, our results show a systematic difference in the process of value estimation. Modifications to the manuscript text have been made consistent with our motivation (please refer to the reply and the textual changes proposed in response to the reviewer’s previous comment: Reviewer #1 Comment 1).

      Reviewer #1 Comment 3

      Could the authors comment on the generalizability of the current result? The reward magnitude and probability information are displayed using rectangular bars of different colors and orientations. Would that bias subjects to choose an additive rule instead of the multiplicative rule? Also, could the conclusion be extended to other decision contexts such as quality and price, whether a multiplicative rule is hard to formulate?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We agree with the observation that the stimulus space, with colour linearly correlated with magnitude, and orientation linearly correlated with probability, may bias subjects towards an additive rule. But that’s indeed the point: in order to maximise reward, subjects should have focused on the outcome space without being driven by the stimulus space. In practice, people are more or less successful in such endeavour. Nevertheless, we argue that the specific choice of visual stimuli we used is no more biased towards additive space than any other. In fact, as long as two or more pieces of information are provided for each option, as opposed to a single cue whose value was previously learned, there will always be a bias towards an additive heuristic (a linear combination), regardless of whether the cues are shapes, colours, graphs, numbers, words.

      As the reviewer suggested, the dataset analyzed in the current manuscript suggests that the participants were leaning towards the additive rule. Although there was a general tendency using the additive rule while choosing between the rectangular bars, we can still observe a spread of individuals using either, or both, additive and multiplicative rules, suggesting that there was indeed diversity in participants’ decision making strategies in our data.

      In previous studies, it was observed that human and non-human individuals used a mix of multiplicative and additive rules when they were tested on experimental paradigms different from ours (Bongioanni et al., 2021; Farashahi et al., 2019; Scholl et al., 2014). It was also observed that positive and negative distractor effects can be both present in the same data set when human and non-human individuals made decisions about food and social partner (Chang et al., 2019; Louie et al., 2013). It was less clear in the past whether the precise way a distractor affects decision making (i.e., positive/negative distractor effect) is related to the use of decision strategy (i.e., multiplicative/additive rules) and this is exactly what we are trying to address in this manuscript. A follow-up study looking at neural data (such as functional magnetic resonance imaging data) could provide a better understanding of the mechanistic nature of the relationship between distractor effects and decision strategy that we identified here.

      We agree with the reviewer that it is true that a multiplicative strategy may not be applicable to some decision contexts. Here it is important to look at the structure of the optimal solution (the one maximizing value in the long run). Factors modulating value (such as probability and temporal delay) require a non-linear (e.g., multiplicative solution), while factors of the cost-benefit form (such as effort and price) require a linear solution (e.g., subtraction). In the latter scenario the additive heuristic would coincide with the optimal solution, and the effect addressed in this study may not be revealed. Nonetheless, the present data supports the notion of distinct neural mechanisms at least for probabilistic decision-making, and is likely applicable to decision-making in general.

      Our findings, in conjunction with the literature, also suggest that a positive distractor effect could be a general phenomenon in decision mechanisms that involve the medial prefrontal cortex. For example, it has been shown that the positive distractor effect is related to a decision mechanism linked to medial prefrontal cortex [especially the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (Chau et al., 2014; Noonan et al., 2017)]. It is also known a similar brain region is involved not only when individuals are combining information using a multiplicative strategy (Bongioanni et al., 2021), but also when they are combining information to evaluate new experience or generalize information (Baram et al., 2021; Barron et al., 2013; Park et al., 2021). We have now revised the Discussion to explain this:

      “In contrast, the positive distractor effect is mediated by the mPFC (Chau et al., 2014; Fouragnan et al., 2019). Interestingly, the same or adjacent, interconnected mPFC regions have also been linked to the mechanisms by which representational elements are integrated into new representations (Barron et al., 2013; Klein-Flügge et al., 2022; Law et al., 2023; Papageorgiou et al., 2017; Schwartenbeck et al., 2023). In a number of situations, such as multi-attribute decision making, understanding social relations, and abstract knowledge, the mPFC achieves this by using a spatial map representation characterised by a grid-like response (Constantinescu et al., 2016; Bongioanni et al., 2021; Park et al., 2021) and disrupting mPFC leads to the evaluation of composite choice options as linear functions of their components (Bongioanni et al., 2021). These observations suggest a potential link between positive distractor effects and mechanisms for evaluating multiple component options and this is consistent with the across-participant correlation that we observed between the strength of the positive distractor effect and the strength of non-additive (i.e., multiplicative) evaluation of the composite stimuli we used in the current task. Hence, one direction for model development may involve incorporating the ideas that people vary in their ways of combining choice attributes and each way is susceptible to different types of distractor effect.” (Lines 260-274)

      Reviewer #1 Comment 4

      The authors did careful analyses on quantifying the "distractor effect". While I fully agree that it is important to use the matched two-option trials and examine the interaction terms (DV-HV)T as a control, the interpretation of the results becomes tricky when looking at the effects in each trial type. Figure 2c shows a positive DV-HV effect in two-option trials whereas the DV-HV effect was not significantly stronger in three-option trials. Further in Figure 5b,c, in the Multiplicative group, the effect of DV-HV was absent in the two-option trials and present in the three-option trials. In the Additive group, however, the effect of DV-HV was significantly positive in the two-option trials but was significantly lowered in the three-option trials. Hence, it seems the different distractor effects were driven by the different effects of DV-HV in the two-option trials, rather than the three-option trials?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. While it may be a bit more difficult to interpret, the current method of examining the (DV−HV)T term rather than (DV−HV) term was used because it was the approach used in a previous study (Cao & Tsetsos, 2022).

      During the design of the original experiments, trials were generated pseudo-randomly until the DV was sufficiently decorrelated from HV−LV. While this method allows for better group-level examination of behaviour, Cao and Tsetsos were concerned that this approach may have introduced unintended confounding covariations to some trials. In theory, one of the unintended covariations could occur between the DV and specific sets of reward magnitude and probability of the HV and LV. The covariation between parameters can lead to an observable positive distractor effect in the DV−HV as a consequence of the attraction effect or an unintended byproduct of using an additive method of integrating attributes [for further elaboration, please refer to Figure 1 in (Cao & Tsetsos, 2022)]. While it may have some limitations, the approach suggested by Cao and Tsetsos has the advantage of leveraging the DV−HV term to absorb any variance contributed by possible confounding factors such that true distractor effects, if any, can be detected using the (DV−HV)T term.

      Reviewer #1 Comment 5

      Note that the pattern described above was different in Supplementary Figure 2, where the effect of DV-HV on the two-option trials was negative for both Multiplicative and Additive groups. I would suggest considering using Supplementary Figure 2 as the main result instead of Figure 5, as it does not rely on multiplicative EV to measure the distraction effect, and it shows the same direction of DV-HV effect on two-option trials, providing a better basis to interpret the (DV-HV)T effect.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments and suggestion. However, as mentioned in the response to Reviewer #1 Comment 4, the current method of analysis adopted in the manuscript and the interpretation of only (DV−HV)T is aimed to address the possibility that the (DV−HV) term may be capturing some confounding effects due to covariation. Given that the debate that is addressed specifically concerns the (DV−HV)T term, we elected to display Figure 5 within the main text and keep the results of the regression after replacing the utility function with the composite model as Supplementary Figure 5 (previously labelled as Supplementary Figure 2).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This paper addresses the empirical demonstration of "distractor effects" in multi-attribute decision-making. It continues a debate in the literature on the presence (or not) of these effects, which domains they arise in, and their heterogeneity across subjects. The domain of the study is a particular type of multi-attribute decision-making: choices over risky lotteries. The paper reports a re-analysis of lottery data from multiple experiments run previously by the authors and other laboratories involved in the debate.

      Methodologically, the analysis assumes a number of simple forms for how attributes are aggregated (adaptively, multiplicatively, or both) and then applies a "reduced form" logistic regression to the choices with a number of interaction terms intended to control for various features of the choice set. One of these interactions, modulated by ternary/binary treatment, is interpreted as a "distractor effect."

      The claimed contribution of the re-analysis is to demonstrate a correlation in the strength/sign of this treatment effect with another estimated parameter: the relative mixture of additive/multiplicative preferences.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive response and are pleased that the reviewer found our report interesting.

      Reviewer #2 Comment 1

      Major Issues

      (1) How to Interpret GLM 1 and 2

      This paper, and others before it, have used a binary logistic regression with a number of interaction terms to attempt to control for various features of the choice set and how they influence choice. It is important to recognize that this modelling approach is not derived from a theoretical claim about the form of the computational model that guides decision-making in this task, nor an explicit test for a distractor effect. This can be seen most clearly in the equations after line 321 and its corresponding log-likelihood after 354, which contain no parameter or test for "distractor effects". Rather the computational model assumes a binary choice probability and then shoehorns the test for distractor effects via a binary/ternary treatment interaction in a separate regression (GLM 1 and 2). This approach has already led to multiple misinterpretations in the literature (see Cao & Tsetsos, 2022; Webb et al., 2020). One of these misinterpretations occurred in the datasets the authors studied, in which the lottery stimuli contained a confound with the interaction that Chau et al., (2014) were interpreting as a distractor effect (GLM 1). Cao & Tsetsos (2022) demonstrated that the interaction was significant in binary choice data from the study, therefore it can not be caused by a third alternative. This paper attempts to address this issue with a further interaction with the binary/ternary treatment (GLM 2). Therefore the difference in the interaction across the two conditions is claimed to now be the distractor effect. The validity of this claim brings us to what exactly is meant by a "distractor effect."

      The paper begins by noting that "Rationally, choices ought to be unaffected by distractors" (line 33). This is not true. There are many normative models that allow for the value of alternatives (even low-valued "distractors") to influence choices, including a simple random utility model. Since Luce (1959), it has been known that the axiom of "Independence of Irrelevant Alternatives" (that the probability ratio between any two alternatives does not depend on a third) is an extremely strong axiom, and only a sufficiency axiom for a random utility representation (Block and Marschak, 1959). It is not a necessary condition of a utility representation, and if this is our definition of rational (which is highly debatable), not necessary for it either. Countless empirical studies have demonstrated that IIA is falsified, and a large number of models can address it, including a simple random utility model with independent normal errors (i.e. a multivariate Probit model). In fact, it is only the multinomial Logit model that imposes IIA. It is also why so much attention is paid to the asymmetric dominance effect, which is a violation of a necessary condition for random utility (the Regularity axiom).

      So what do the authors even mean by a "distractor effect." It is true that the form of IIA violations (i.e. their path through the probability simplex as the low-option varies) tells us something about the computational model underlying choice (after all, different models will predict different patterns). However we do not know how the interaction terms in the binary logit regression relate to the pattern of the violations because there is no formal theory that relates them. Any test for relative value coding is a joint test of the computational model and the form of the stochastic component (Webb et al, 2020). These interaction terms may simply be picking up substitution patterns that can be easily reconciled with some form of random utility. While we can not check all forms of random utility in these datasets (because the class of such models is large), this paper doesn't even rule any of these models out.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. In this study, one objective is to address an issue raised by Cao and Tsetsos (2022), suggesting that the distractor effect claimed in the Chau et al. (2014) study was potentially confounded by unintended correlation introduced between the distractor and the chooseable options. They suggested that this could be tested by analyzing the control binary trials and the experimental ternary trials in a single model (i.e., GLM2) and introducing an interaction term (DV−HV)T. The interaction term can partial out any unintended confound and test the distractor effect that was present specifically in the experimental ternary trials. We adopted these procedures in our current studies and employed the interaction term to test the distractor effects. The results showed that overall there was no significant distractor effect in the group. We agree with the reviewer’s comment that if we were only analysing the ternary trials, a multinomial probit model would be suitable because it allows noise correlation between the choices. Alternatively, had a multinomial logistic model been applied, a Hausman-McFadden Test could be run to test whether the data violates the assumption of independence of irrelevant alternatives (IIA). However, in our case, a binomial model is preferred over a multinomial model because of: (1) the inclusion of the binary trials, and (2) the small number of trials in which the distractor was chosen (the median was 4% of all ternary trials).

      However, another main objective of this study is to consider the possibility that the precise distractor effect may vary across individuals. This is exactly why we employed the composite model to estimate individual’s decision making strategy and investigated how that varied with the precise way the distractor influenced decision making.

      In addition, we think that the reviewer here is raising a profound point and one with which we are in sympathy; it is true that random noise utility models can predict deviations from the IIA axiom. Central to these approaches is the notion that the representations of the values of choice options are noisy. Thus, when the representation is accessed, it might have a certain value on average but this value might vary from occasion to occasion as if each sample were being drawn from a distribution. As a consequence, the value of a distractor that is “drawn” during a decision between two other options may be larger than the distractor’s average value and may even have a value that is larger than the value drawn from the less valuable choice option’s distribution on the current trial. On such a trial it may become especially clear that the better of the two options has a higher value than the alternative choice option. Our understanding is that Webb, Louie and colleagues (Louie et al., 2013; Webb et al., 2020) suggest an explanation approximately along these lines when they reported a negative distractor effect during some decisions, i.e., they follow the predictions of divisive normalization suggesting that decisions become more random as the distractor’s value is greater.

      An alternative approach, however, assumes that rather than noise in the representation of the option itself, there is noise in the comparison process when the two options are compared. This is exemplified in many influential decision making models including evidence accumulation models such as drift diffusion models (Shadlen & Shohamy, 2016) and recurrent neural network models of decision making (Wang, 2008). It is this latter type of model that we have used in our previous investigations (Chau et al., 2020; Kohl et al., 2023). However, these two approaches are linked both in their theoretical origin and in the predictions that they make in many situations (Shadlen & Shohamy, 2016). We therefore clarify that this is the case in the revised manuscript as follows:

      “In the current study and in previous work we have used or made reference to models of decision making that assume that a noisy process of choice comparison occurs such as recurrent neural networks and drift diffusion models (Shadlen & Shohamy, 2016; Wang, 2008). Under this approach, positive distractor effects are predicted when the comparison process becomes more accurate because of an impact on the noisy process of choice comparison (Chau et al., 2020; Kohl et al., 2023). However, it is worth noting that another class of models might assume that a choice representation itself is inherently noisy. According to this approach, on any given decision a sample is drawn from a distribution of value estimates in a noisy representation of the option. Thus, when the representation is accessed, it might have a certain value on average but this value might vary from occasion to occasion. As a consequence, the value of a distractor that is “drawn” during decision between two other options may be larger than the distractor’s average value and may even have a value that is larger than the value drawn from the less valuable choice option’s distribution on the current trial. On such a trial it may become especially clear that the better of the two options has a higher value than the alternative choice option. Louie and colleagues (Louie et al., 2013) suggest an explanation approximately along these lines when they reported a positive distractor effect during some decisions. Such different approaches share theoretical origins (Shadlen & Shohamy, 2016) and make related predictions about the impact of distractors on decision making.” (Lines 297-313)

      Reviewer #2 Comment 2

      (2) How to Interpret the Composite (Mixture) model?

      On the other side of the correlation are the results from the mixture model for how decision-makers aggregate attributes. The authors report that most subjects are best represented by a mixture of additive and multiplicative aggregation models. The authors justify this with the proposal that these values are computed in different brain regions and then aggregated (which is reasonable, though raises the question of "where" if not the mPFC). However, an equally reasonable interpretation is that the improved fit of the mixture model simply reflects a misspecification of two extreme aggregation processes (additive and EV), so the log-likelihood is maximized at some point in between them.

      One possibility is a model with utility curvature. How much of this result is just due to curvature in valuation? There are many reasonable theories for why we should expect curvature in utility for human subjects (for example, limited perception: Robson, 2001, Khaw, Li Woodford, 2019; Netzer et al., 2022) and of course many empirical demonstrations of risk aversion for small stakes lotteries. The mixture model, on the other hand, has parametric flexibility.

      There is also a large literature on testing expected utility jointly with stochastic choice, and the impact of these assumptions on parameter interpretation (Loomes & Sugden, 1998; Apesteguia & Ballester, 2018; Webb, 2019). This relates back to the point above: the mixture may reflect the joint assumption of how choice departs from deterministic EV.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. They are indeed right to mention the vast literature on curvature in subjective valuation; however it is important to stress that the predictions of the additive model with linear basis functions are quite distinct for the predictions of a multiplicative model with non-linear basis functions. We have tested the possibility that participants’ behaviour was better explained by the latter and we showed that this was not the case. Specifically, we have added and performed model fitting on an additional model with utility curvature based on prospect theory (Kahneman & Tversky, 1979) with the weighted probability function suggested by (Prelec, 1998):

      where  and  represent the reward magnitude and probability (both rescaled to the interval between 0 and 1), respectively.  is the weighted magnitude and  is the weighted probability, while  and  are the corresponding distortion parameters. This prospect theory (PT) model is included along with the four previous models (please refer to Figure 3) in a Bayesian model comparison. Results indicate that the composite model remains the best account of participants’ choice behaviour (exceedance probability = 1.000, estimated model frequency = 0.720). We have now included these results in the main text and Supplementary Figure 2:

      “Supplementary Figure 2 reports an additional Bayesian model comparison performed while including a model with nonlinear utility functions based on Prospect Theory (Kahneman & Tversky, 1979) with the Prelec formula for probability (Prelec, 1998). Consistent with the above finding, the composite model provides the best account of participants’ choice behaviour (exceedance probability = 1.000, estimated model frequency = 0.720).” (Lines 193-198)

      Reviewer #2 Comment 3

      3) So then how should we interpret the correlation that the authors report?

      On one side we have the impact of the binary/ternary treatment which demonstrates some impact of the low value alternative on a binary choice probability. This may reflect some deep flaws in existing theories of choice, or it may simply reflect some departure from purely deterministic expected value maximization that existing theories can address. We have no theory to connect it to, so we cannot tell. On the other side of the correlation, we have a mixture between additive and multiplicative preferences over risk. This result may reflect two distinct neural processes at work, or it may simply reflect a misspecification of the manner in which humans perceive and aggregate attributes of a lottery (or even just the stimuli in this experiment) by these two extreme candidates (additive vs. EV). Again, this would entail some departure from purely deterministic expected value maximization that existing theories can address.

      It is entirely possible that the authors are reporting a result that points to the more exciting of these two possibilities. But it is also possible (and perhaps more likely) that the correlation is more mundane. The paper does not guide us to theories that predict such a correlation, nor reject any existing ones. In my opinion, we should be striving for theoretically-driven analyses of datasets, where the interpretation of results is clearer.

      We thank the reviewer for their clear comments. Based on our responses to the previous comments it should be apparent that our results are consistent with several existing theories of choice, so we are not claiming that there are deep flaws in them, but distinct neural processes (additive and multiplicative) are revealed, and this does not reflect a misspecification in the modelling. We have revised our manuscript in the light of the reviewer’s comments in the hope of clarifying the theoretical background which informed both our data analysis and our data interpretation.

      First, we note that there are theoretical reasons to expect a third option might impact on choice valuation. There is a large body of work suggesting that a third option may have an impact on the values of two other options (indeed Reviewer #2 refers to some of this work in their Reviewer #2 Comment 1), but the body of theoretical work originates partly in neuroscience and not just in behavioural economics. In many sensory systems, neural activity changes with the intensity of the stimuli that are sensed. Divisive normalization in sensory systems, however, describes the way in which such neural responses are altered also as a function of other adjacent stimuli (Carandini & Heeger, 2012; Glimcher, 2022; Louie et al., 2011, 2013). The phenomenon has been observed at neural and behavioural levels as a function not just of the physical intensity of the other stimuli but as a function of their associated value (Glimcher, 2014, 2022; Louie et al., 2011, 2015; Noonan et al., 2017; Webb et al., 2020).

      Analogously there is an emerging body of work on the combinatorial processes that describe how multiple representational elements are integrated into new representations (Barron et al., 2013; Papageorgiou et al., 2017; Schwartenbeck et al., 2023). These studies have originated in neuroscience, just as was the case with divisive normalization, but they may have implications for understanding behaviour. For example, they might be linked to behavioural observations that the values assigned to bundles of goods are not necessarily the sum of the values of the individual goods (Hsee, 1998; List, 2002). One neuroscience fact that we know about such processes is that, at an anatomical level, they are linked to the medial frontal cortex (Barron et al., 2013; Fellows, 2006; Hunt et al., 2012; Papageorgiou et al., 2017; Schwartenbeck et al., 2023). A second neuroscientific fact that we know about medial frontal cortex is that it is linked to any positive effects that distractors might have on decision making (Chau et al., 2014; Noonan et al., 2017). Therefore, we might make use of these neuroscientific facts and theories to predict a correlation between positive distractor effects and non-additive mechanisms for determining the integrated value of multi-component choices. This is precisely what we did; we predicted the correlation on the basis of this body of work and when we tested to see if it was present, we found that indeed it was. It may be the case that other behavioural economics theories offer little explanation of the associations and correlations that we find. However, we emphasize that this association is predicted by neuroscientific theory and in the revised manuscript we have attempted to clarify this in the Introduction and Discussion sections:

      “Given the overlap in neuroanatomical bases underlying the different methods of value estimation and the types of distractor effects, we further explored the relationship. Critically, those who employed a more multiplicative style of integrating choice attributes also showed stronger positive distractor effects, whereas those who employed a more additive style showed negative distractor effects. These findings concur with neural data demonstrating that the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) computes the overall values of choices in ways that go beyond simply adding their components together, and is the neural site at which positive distractor effects emerge (Barron et al., 2013; Bongioanni et al., 2021; Chau et al., 2014; Fouragnan et al., 2019; Noonan et al., 2017; Papageorgiou et al., 2017), while divisive normalization was previously identified in the posterior parietal cortex (PPC) (Chau et al., 2014; Louie et al., 2011).” (Lines 109-119)

      “At the neuroanatomical level, the negative distractor effect is mediated by the PPC, where signal modulation described by divisive normalization has been previously identified (Chau et al., 2014; Louie et al., 2011). The same region is also crucial for perceptual decision making processes (Shadlen & Shohamy, 2016). The additive heuristics for combining choice attributes are closer to a perceptual evaluation because distances in this subjective value space correspond linearly to differences in physical attributes of the stimuli, whereas normative (multiplicative) value has a non-linear relation with them (cf. Figure 1c). It is well understood that many sensory mechanisms, such as in primates’ visual systems or fruit flies’ olfactory systems, are subject to divisive normalization (Carandini & Heeger, 2012). Hence, the additive heuristics that are more closely based on sensory mechanisms could also be subject to divisive normalization, leading to negative distractor effects in decision making.

      In contrast, the positive distractor effect is mediated by the mPFC (Chau et al., 2014; Fouragnan et al., 2019). Interestingly, the same or adjacent, interconnected mPFC regions have also been linked to the mechanisms by which representational elements are integrated into new representations (Barron et al., 2013; Klein-Flügge et al., 2022; Law et al., 2023; Papageorgiou et al., 2017; Schwartenbeck et al., 2023). In a number of situations, such as multi-attribute decision making, understanding social relations, and abstract knowledge, the mPFC achieves this by using a spatial map representation characterised by a grid-like response (Constantinescu et al., 2016; Bongioanni et al., 2021; Park et al., 2021) and disrupting mPFC leads to the evaluation of composite choice options as linear functions of their components (Bongioanni et al., 2021). These observations suggest a potential link between positive distractor effects and mechanisms for evaluating multiple component options and this is consistent with the across-participant correlation that we observed between the strength of the positive distractor effect and the strength of non-additive (i.e., multiplicative) evaluation of the composite stimuli we used in the current task. Hence, one direction for model development may involve incorporating the ideas that people vary in their ways of combining choice attributes and each way is susceptible to different types of distractor effect.” (Lines 250-274)

      Reviewer #2 Comment 4

      (4) Finally, the results from these experiments might not have external validity for two reasons. First, the normative criterion for multi-attribute decision-making differs depending on whether the attributes are lotteries or not (i.e. multiplicative vs additive). Whether it does so for humans is a matter of debate. Therefore if the result is unique to lotteries, it might not be robust for multi-attribute choice more generally. The paper largely glosses over this difference and mixes literature from both domains. Second, the lottery information was presented visually and there is literature suggesting this form of presentation might differ from numerical attributes. Which is more ecologically valid is also a matter of debate.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. Indeed, they are right that the correlation we find between value estimation style and distractor effects may not be detected in all contexts of human behaviour. What the reviewer suggests goes along the same lines as our response to Reviewer #1 Comment 3, multi-attribute value estimation may have different structure: in some cases, the optimal solution may require a non-linear (e.g., multiplicative) response as in probabilistic or delayed decisions, but other cases (e.g., when estimating the value of a snack based on its taste, size, healthiness, price) a linear integration would suffice. In the latter kind of scenarios, both the optimal and the heuristic solutions may be additive and people’s value estimation “style” may not be teased apart. However, if different neural mechanisms associated with difference estimation processes are observed in certain scenarios, it suggests that these mechanisms are always present, even in scenarios where they do not alter the predictions. Probabilistic decision-making is also pervasive in many aspects of daily life and not just limited to the case of lotteries.

      While behaviour has been found to differ depending on whether lottery information is presented graphically or numerically, there is insufficient evidence to suggest biases towards additive or multiplicative evaluation, or towards positive or negative distractor effects. As such, we may expect that the correlation that we reveal in this paper, grounded in distinct neural mechanisms, would still hold even under different circumstances.

      Taking previous literature as examples, similar patterns of behaviour have been observed in humans when making decisions during trinary choice tasks. In a study conducted by Louie and colleagues (Louie et al., 2013; Webb et al., 2020), human participants performed a snack choice task where their behaviour could be modelled by divisive normalization with biphasic response (i.e., both positive and negative distractor effects). While these two studies only use a single numerical value of price for behavioural modelling, these prices should originate from an internal computation of various attributes related to each snack that are not purely related to lotteries. Expanding towards the social domain, studies of trinary decision making have considered face attractiveness and averageness (Furl, 2016), desirability of hiring (Chang et al., 2019), as well as desirability of candidates during voting (Chang et al., 2019). These choices involve considering various attributes unrelated to lotteries or numbers and yet, still display a combination of positive distractor and negative distractor (i.e. divisive normalization) effects, as in the current study. In particular, the experiments carried out by Chang and colleagues (Chang et al., 2019) involved decisions in a social context that resemble real-world situations. These findings suggests that both types of distractor effects can co-exist in other value based decision making tasks (Li et al., 2018; Louie et al., 2013) as well as decision making tasks in social contexts (Chang et al., 2019; Furl, 2016).

      Reviewer #2 Comment 5

      Minor Issues:

      The definition of EV as a normative choice baseline is problematic. The analysis requires that EV is the normative choice model (this is why the HV-LV gap is analyzed and the distractor effect defined in relation to it). But if the binary/ternary interaction effect can be accounted for by curvature of a value function, this should also change the definition of which lottery is HV or LV for that subject!

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. While the initial part of the paper discussed results that were defined by the EV model, the results shown in Supplementary Figure 2 were generated by replacing the utility function based on values obtained by using the composite model. Here, we have also redefined the definition of HV or LV for each subject depending on the updated value generated by the composite model prior to the regression.

      References

      Apesteguia, J. & Ballester, M. Monotone stochastic choice models: The case of risk and time preferences. Journal of Political Economy (2018).

      Block, H. D. & Marschak, J. Random Orderings and Stochastic Theories of Responses. Cowles Foundation Discussion Papers (1959).

      Khaw, M. W., Li, Z. & Woodford, M. Cognitive Imprecision and Small-Stakes Risk Aversion. Rev. Econ. Stud. 88, 1979-2013 (2020).

      Loomes, G. & Sugden, R. Testing Different Stochastic Specificationsof Risky Choice. Economica 65, 581-598 (1998).

      Luce, R. D. Indvidual Choice Behaviour. (John Wiley and Sons, Inc., 1959).

      Netzer, N., Robson, A. J., Steiner, J. & Kocourek, P. Endogenous Risk Attitudes. SSRN Electron. J. (2022) doi:10.2139/ssrn.4024773.

      Robson, A. J. Why would nature give individuals utility functions? Journal of Political Economy 109, 900-914 (2001).

      Webb, R. The (Neural) Dynamics of Stochastic Choice. Manage Sci 65, 230-255 (2019).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The way an unavailable (distractor) alternative impacts decision quality is of great theoretical importance. Previous work, led by some of the authors of this study, had converged on a nuanced conclusion wherein the distractor can both improve (positive distractor effect) and reduce (negative distractor effect) decision quality, contingent upon the difficulty of the decision problem. In very recent work, Cao and Tsetsos (2022) reanalyzed all relevant previous datasets and showed that once distractor trials are referenced to binary trials (in which the distractor alternative is not shown to participants), distractor effects are absent. Cao and Tsetsos further showed that human participants heavily relied on additive (and not multiplicative) integration of rewards and probabilities.

      The present study by Wong et al. puts forward a novel thesis according to which interindividual differences in the way of combining reward attributes underlie the absence of detectable distractor effect at the group level. They re-analysed the 144 human participants and classified participants into a "multiplicative integration" group and an "additive integration" group based on a model parameter, the "integration coefficient", that interpolates between the multiplicative utility and the additive utility in a mixture model. They report that participants in the "multiplicative" group show a negative distractor effect while participants in the "additive" group show a positive distractor effect. These findings are extensively discussed in relation to the potential underlying neural mechanisms.

      Strengths:

      - The study is forward-looking, integrating previous findings well, and offering a novel proposal on how different integration strategies can lead to different choice biases.

      - The authors did an excellent job of connecting their thesis with previous neural findings. This is a very encompassing perspective that is likely to motivate new studies towards a better understanding of how humans and other animals integrate information in decisions under risk and uncertainty.

      - Despite that some aspects of the paper are very technical, methodological details are well explained and the paper is very well written.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive response and are pleased that the reviewer found our report interesting.

      Reviewer #3 Comment 1

      Weaknesses:

      The authors quantify the distractor variable as "DV - HV", i.e., the relative distractor variable. Do the conclusions hold when the distractor is quantified in absolute terms (as "DV", see also Cao & Tsetsos, 2023)? Similarly, the authors show in Suppl. Figure 1 that the inclusion of a HV + LV regressor does not alter their conclusions. However, the (HV + LV)*T regressor was not included in this analysis. Does including this interaction term alter the conclusions considering there is a high correlation between (HV + LV)*T and (DV - HV)*T? More generally, it will be valuable if the authors assess and discuss the robustness of their findings across different ways of quantifying the distractor effect.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. In the original manuscript we had already demonstrated that the distractor effect was related to the integration coefficient using a number of complementary analyses. They include Figure 5 based on GLM2, Supplementary Figure 3 based on GLM3 (i.e., adding the HV+LV term to GLM2), and Supplementary Figure 4 based on GLM2 but applying the utility estimate from the composite model instead of expected value (EV). These three sets of analyses produced comparable results. The reason why we elected not to include the (HV+LV)T term in GLM3 (Supplementary Figure 3) was due to the collinearity between the regressors in the GLM. If this term is included in GLM3, the variance inflation factor (VIF) would exceed an acceptable level of 4 for some regressors. In particular, the VIF for the (HV+LV) and (HV+LV)T regressors is 5.420, while the VIF for (DV−HV) and (DV−HV)T is 4.723.

      Here, however, we consider the additional analysis suggested by the reviewer and test whether similar results are obtained. We constructed GLM4 including the (HV+LV)T term but replacing the relative distractor value (DV-HV) with the absolute distractor value (DV) in the main term and its interactions, as follows:

      GLM4:

      A significant negative (DV)T effect was found for the additive group [t(72)=−2.0253, p=0.0465] while the multiplicative group had a positive trend despite not reaching significance. Between the two groups, the (DV)T term was significantly different [t(142)=2.0434, p=0.0429]. While these findings suggest that the current conclusions could be partially replicated, simply replacing the relative distractor value with the absolute value in the previous analyses resulted in non-significant findings. Taking these results together with the main findings, it is possible to conclude that the positive distractor effect is better captured using the relative DV-HV term rather than the absolute DV term. This would be consistent with the way in which option values are envisaged to interact with one another in the mutual inhibition model (Chau et al., 2014, 2020) that generates the positive distractor effect. The model suggests that evidence is accumulated as the difference between the excitatory input from the option (e.g. the HV option) and the pooled inhibition contributed partly by the distractor. We have now included these results in the manuscript:

      “Finally, we performed three additional analyses that revealed comparable results to those shown in Figure 5. In the first analysis, reported in Supplementary Figure 3, we added an  term to the GLM, because this term was included in some analyses of a previous study that used the same dataset (Chau et al., 2020). In the second analysis, we added an  term to the GLM. We noticed that this change led to inflation of the collinearity between the regressors and so we also replaced the (DV−HV) term by the DV term to mitigate the collinearity (Supplementary Figure 4). In the third analyses, reported in Supplementary Figure 5, we replaced the utility terms of GLM2. Since the above analyses involved using HV, LV, and DV values defined by the normative Expected Value model, here, we re-defined the values using the composite model prior to applying GLM2. Overall, in the Multiplicative Group a significant positive distractor effect was found in Supplementary Figures 3 and 4. In the Additive Group a significant negative distractor effect was found in Supplementary Figures 3 and 5. Crucially, all three analyses consistently showed that the distractor effects were significantly different between the Multiplicative Group and the Additive Group.” (Lines 225-237)

      Reviewer #3 Comment 2

      The central finding of this study is that participants who integrate reward attributes multiplicatively show a positive distractor effect while participants who integrate additively show a negative distractor effect. This is a very interesting and intriguing observation. However, there is no explanation as to why the integration strategy covaries with the direction of the distractor effect. It is unlikely that the mixture model generates any distractor effect as it combines two "context-independent" models (additive utility and expected value) and is fit to the binary-choice trials. The authors can verify this point by quantifying the distractor effect in the mixture model. If that is the case, it will be important to highlight that the composite model is not explanatory; and defer a mechanistic explanation of this covariation pattern to future studies.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. Indeed, the main purpose of applying the mixture model was to identify the way each participants combined attributes and, as the reviewer pointed out, the mixture model per se is context independent. While we acknowledge that the mixture model is not a mechanistic explanation, there is a theoretical basis for the observation that these two factors are linked.

      Firstly, studies that have examined the processes involved when humans combine and integrate different elements to form new representations (Barron et al., 2013; Papageorgiou et al., 2017; Schwartenbeck et al., 2023) have implicated the medial frontal cortex as a crucial region (Barron et al., 2013; Fellows, 2006; Hunt et al., 2012; Papageorgiou et al., 2017; Schwartenbeck et al., 2023). Meanwhile, previous studies have also identified that positive distractor effects are linked to the medial frontal cortex (Chau et al., 2014; Noonan et al., 2017). Therefore, the current study utilized these two facts to establish the basis for a correlation between positive distractor effects and non-additive mechanisms for determining the integrated value of multi-component choices. Nevertheless, we agree with the reviewer that it will be an important future direction to look at how the covariation pattern emerges in a computational model. We have revised the manuscript in an attempt to address this issue.

      “At the neuroanatomical level, the negative distractor effect is mediated by the PPC, where signal modulation described by divisive normalization has been previously identified (Chau et al., 2014; Louie et al., 2011). The same region is also crucial for perceptual decision making processes (Shadlen & Shohamy, 2016). The additive heuristics for combining choice attributes are closer to a perceptual evaluation because distances in this subjective value space correspond linearly to differences in physical attributes of the stimuli, whereas normative (multiplicative) value has a non-linear relation with them (cf. Figure 1c). It is well understood that many sensory mechanisms, such as in primates’ visual systems or fruit flies’ olfactory systems, are subject to divisive normalization (Carandini & Heeger, 2012). Hence, the additive heuristics that are more closely based on sensory mechanisms could also be subject to divisive normalization, leading to negative distractor effects in decision making.

      In contrast, the positive distractor effect is mediated by the mPFC (Chau et al., 2014; Fouragnan et al., 2019). Interestingly, the same or adjacent, interconnected mPFC regions have also been linked to the mechanisms by which representational elements are integrated into new representations (Barron et al., 2013; Klein-Flügge et al., 2022; Law et al., 2023; Papageorgiou et al., 2017; Schwartenbeck et al., 2023). In a number of situations, such as multi-attribute decision making, understanding social relations, and abstract knowledge, the mPFC achieves this by using a spatial map representation characterised by a grid-like response (Constantinescu et al., 2016; Bongioanni et al., 2021; Park et al., 2021) and disrupting mPFC leads to the evaluation of composite choice options as linear functions of their components (Bongioanni et al., 2021). These observations suggest a potential link between positive distractor effects and mechanisms for evaluating multiple component options and this is consistent with the across-participant correlation that we observed between the strength of the positive distractor effect and the strength of non-additive (i.e., multiplicative) evaluation of the composite stimuli we used in the current task. Hence, one direction for model development may involve incorporating the ideas that people vary in their ways of combining choice attributes and each way is susceptible to different types of distractor effect.” (Lines 250-274)

      Reviewer #3 Comment 3

      -  Correction for multiple comparisons (e.g., Bonferroni-Holm) was not applied to the regression results. Is the "negative distractor effect in the Additive Group" (Fig. 5c) still significant after such correction? Although this does not affect the stark difference between the distractor effects in the two groups (Fig. 5a), the classification of the distractor effect in each group is important (i.e., should future modelling work try to capture both a negative and a positive effect in the two integration groups? Or just a null and a positive effect?).

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have performed Bonferroni-Holm correction and as the reviewer surmised, the negative distractor effect in the additive group becomes non-significant. However, we have to emphasize that our major claim is that there was a covariation between decision strategy (of combining attributes) and distractor effect (as seen in Figure 4). That analysis does not imply multiple comparisons. The analysis in Figure 5 that splits participants into two groups was mainly designed to illustrate the effects for an easier understanding by a more general audience. In many cases, the precise ways in which participants are divided into subgroups can have a major impact on whether each individual group’s effects are significant or not. It may be possible to identify an optimal way of grouping, but we refrained from taking such a trial-and-error approach, especially for the analysis in Figure 5 that simply supplements the point made in Figure 4. The key notion we would like the readers to take away is that there is a spectrum of distractor effects (ranging from negative to positive) that will vary depending on how the choice attributes were integrated.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Reviewer #1 Recommendations 1

      Enhancements are necessary for the quality of the scientific writing. Several sentences have been written in a negligent manner and warrant revision to ensure a higher level of rigor. Moreover, a number of sentences lack appropriate citations, including but not restricted to:

      - Line 39-41.

      - Line 349-350 (also please clarify what it means by parameter estimate" is very accurate: correlation?).

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have made revisions to various parts of the manuscript to address the reviewer’s concerns.

      “Intriguingly, most investigations have considered the interaction between distractors and chooseable options either at the level of their overall utility or at the level of their component attributes, but not both (Chau et al., 2014, 2020; Gluth et al., 2018).” (Lines 40-42)

      “Additional simulations have shown that the fitted parameters can be recovered with high accuracy (i.e., with a high correlation between generative and recovered parameters).” (Lines 414-416)

      Reviewer #1 Recommendations 2

      Some other minor suggestions:

      - Correlative vs. Causality: the manuscript exhibits a lack of attentiveness in drawing causal conclusions from correlative evidence (manuscript title, Line 91, Line 153-155).

      - When displaying effect size on accuracy, there is no need to show the significance of intercept (Figure 2,5, & supplementary figures).

      - Adding some figure titles on Figure 2 so it is clear what each panel stands for.

      - In Figure 3, the dots falling on zero values are not easily seen. Maybe increasing the dot size a little?

      - Line 298: binomial linking function (instead of binomial distribution).

      - Line 100: composite, not compositive.

      - Line 138-139: please improve the sentence, if it's consistent with previous findings, what's the point of "surprisingly"?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions. We have made revisions to the title and various parts of the manuscript to address the reviewer’s concerns.

      - Correlative vs. Causality: the manuscript exhibits a lack of attentiveness in drawing causal conclusions from correlative evidence (manuscript title, Line 91, Line 153-155).

      We have now revised the manuscript:

      “Distractor effects in decision making are related to the individual’s style of integrating choice attributes” (title of the manuscript)

      “More particularly, we consider whether individual differences in combination styles could be related to different forms of distractor effect.” (Lines 99-100)

      “While these results may seem to suggest that a distractor effect was not present at an overall group level, we argue that the precise way in which a distractor affects decision making is related to how individuals integrate the attributes.” (Lines 164-167)

      - When displaying effect size on accuracy, there is no need to show the significance of intercept (Figure 2,5, & supplementary figures).

      We have also modified all Figures to remove the intercept.

      - Adding some figure titles on Figure 2 so it is clear what each panel stands for.

      We have added titles accordingly.

      - In Figure 3, the dots falling on zero values are not easily seen. Maybe increasing the dot size a little?

      In conjunction with addressing Reviewer #3 Recommendation 6, we have adapted the violin plots into histograms for a better representation of the values.

      - Line 298: binomial linking function (instead of binomial distribution).

      - Line 100: composite, not compositive.

      - Line 138-139: please improve the sentence, if it's consistent with previous findings, what's the point of "surprisingly"?

      We have made revisions accordingly.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Reviewer #2 Recommendations 1

      Line 294. The definition of DV, HV, LV is not sufficient. Presumably, these are the U from the following sections? Or just EV? But this is not explicitly stated, rather they are vaguely referred to as values." The computational modelling section refers to them as utilities. Are these the same thing?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have clarified that the exact method for calculating each of the values and updated the section accordingly.

      “where HV, LV, and DV refer to the values of the chooseable higher value option, chooseable lower value option, and distractor, respectively. Here, values (except those in Supplementary Figure 5) are defined as Expected Value (EV), calculated by multiplying magnitude and probability of reward.” (Lines 348-350)

      Reviewer #2 Recommendations 2

      The analysis drops trials in which the distractor was chosen. These trials are informative about the presence (or not) of relative valuation or other factors because they make such choices more (or less) likely. Ignoring them is another example of the analysis being misspecified.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and this is related to Major Issue 1 raised by the same reviewer. In brief, we adopted the same methods implemented by Cao and Tsetsos (Cao and Tsetsos, 2022) and that constrained us to applying a binomial model. Please refer to our reply to Major Issue 1 for more details.

      Reviewer #2 Recommendations 3

      Some questions and suggestions on statistics and computational modeling:

      Have the authors looked at potential collinearity between the regressors in each of the GLMs?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. For each of the following GLMs, the average variance inflation factor (VIF) has been calculated as follows:

      GLM2 using the Expected Value model:

      Author response table 1.

      GLM2 after replacing the utility function based on the normative Expected Value model with values obtained by using the composite model:

      Author response table 2.

      GLM3:

      Author response table 3.

      As indicated in the average VIF values calculated, none of them exceed 4, suggesting that the estimated coefficients were not inflated due to collinearity between the regressor in each of the GLMs.

      Reviewer #2 Recommendations 4

      - Correlation results in Figure 4. What is the regression line displayed on this plot? I suspect the regression line came from Pearson's correlation, which would be inconsistent with the Spearman's correlation reported in the text. A reasonable way would be to transform both x and y axes to the ranked data. However, I wonder why it makes sense to use ranked data for testing the correlation in this case. Those are both scalar values. Also, did the authors assess the influence of the zero integration coefficient on the correlation result? Importantly, did the authors redo the correlation plot after defining the utility function by the composite models?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. The plotted line in Figure 4 was based on the Pearson’s correlation and we have modified the text to also report the Pearson’s correlation result as well.

      If we were to exclude the 32 participants with integration coefficients smaller than 1×10-6 from the analysis, we still observe a significant positive Pearson’s correlation [r(110)=0.202, p=0.0330].

      Author response image 1.

      Figure 4 after excluding 32 participants with integration coefficients smaller than 1×10-6.

      “As such, we proceeded to explore how the distractor effect (i.e., the effect of (DV−HV)T obtained from GLM2; Figure 2c) was related to the integration coefficient (η) of the optimal model via a Pearson’s correlation (Figure 4). As expected, a significant positive correlation was observed [r(142)=0.282, p=0.000631]. We noticed that there were 32 participants with integration coefficients that were close to zero (below 1×10-6). The correlation remained significant even after removing these participants [r(110)=0.202, p=0.0330].” (Lines 207-212)

      The last question relates to results already included in Supplementary Figure 5, in which the analyses were conducted using the utility function of the composite model. We notice that although there was a difference in integration coefficient between the multiplicative and additive groups, a correlational analysis did not generate significant results [r(142)=0.124, p=0.138]. It is possible that the relationship became less linear after applying the composite model utility function. However, it is noticeable that in a series of complementary analyses (Figure 5: r(142)=0.282, p=0.000631; Supplementary Figure 3: r(142)=0.278, p=0.000746) comparable results were obtained.

      Reviewer #2 Recommendations 5

      - From lines 163-165, were the models tested on only the three-option trials or both two and three-opinion trials? It is ambiguous from the description here. It might be worth checking the model comparison based on different trial types, and the current model fitting results do not tell an absolute sense of the goodness of fit. I would suggest including the correctly predicted trial proportions in each trial type from different models.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have only modeled the two-option trials and the key reason for this is because the two-option trials can arguably provide a better estimate of participants’ style of integrating attributes as they are independent of any distractor effects. This was also the same reason why Cao and Tsetsos applied the same approach when they were re-analyzing our data (Cao and Tsetsos, 2022). We have clarified the statement accordingly.

      “We fitted these models exclusively to the Two-Option Trial data and not the Distractor Trial data, such that the fitting (especially that of the integration coefficient) was independent of any distractor effects, and tested which model best describes participants’ choice behaviours.” (Lines 175-178)

      Reviewer #2 Recommendations 6

      - Along with displaying the marginal distributions of each parameter estimate, a correlation plot of these model parameters might be useful, given that some model parameters are multiplied in the value functions.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have also generated the correlation plot of the model parameters. The Pearson’s correlation between the magnitude/probability weighting and integration coefficient was significant [r(142)=−0.259, p=0.00170]. The Pearson’s correlation between the inverse temperature and integration coefficient was not significant [r(142)=−0.0301, p=0.721]. The Pearson’s correlation between the inverse temperature and magnitude/probability weighting was not significant [r(142)=−0.0715, p=0.394].

      “Our finding that the average integration coefficient  was 0.325 coincides with previous evidence that people were biased towards using an additive, rather than a multiplicative rule. However, it also shows rather than being fully additive ( =0) or multiplicative ( =1), people’s choice behaviour is best described as a mixture of both. Supplementary Figure 1 shows the relationships between all the fitted parameters.” (Lines 189-193)

      Reviewer #2 Recommendations 7

      Have the authors tried any functional transformations on amounts or probabilities before applying the weighted sum? The two attributes are on entirely different scales and thus may not be directly summed together.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. Amounts and probabilities were indeed both rescaled to the 0-1 interval before being summed, as explained in the methods (Line XXX). Additionally, we have now added and performed model fitting on an additional model with utility curvature based on the prospect theory (Kahneman & Tversky, 1979) and a weighted probability function (Prelec, 1998):

      where  and  represent the reward magnitude and probability (both rescaled to the interval between 0 and 1), respectively.  is the weighted magnitude and  is the weighted probability, while  and  are the corresponding distortion parameters. This prospect theory (PT) model was included along with the four previous models (please refer to Figure 3) in a Bayesian model comparison. Results indicate that the composite model remains as the best account of participants’ choice behaviour (exceedance probability = 1.000, estimated model frequency = 0.720).

      “Supplementary Figure 2 reports an additional Bayesian model comparison performed while including a model with nonlinear utility functions based on Prospect Theory (Kahneman & Tversky, 1979) with the Prelec formula for probability (Prelec, 1998). Consistent with the above finding, the composite model provides the best account of participants’ choice behaviour (exceedance probability = 1.000, estimated model frequency = 0.720).” (Lines 193-198)

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Reviewer #3 Recommendations 1

      - In the Introduction (around line 48), the authors make the case that distractor effects can co-exist in different parts of the decision space, citing Chau et al. (2020). However, if the distractor effect is calculated relative to the binary baseline this is no longer the case.

      - Relating to the above point, it might be useful for the authors to make a distinction between effects being non-monotonic across the decision space (within individuals) and effects varying across individuals due to different strategies adopted. These two scenarios are conceptually distinct.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. Indeed, the ideas that distractor effects may vary across decision space and across different individuals are slightly different concepts. We have now revised the manuscript to clarify this:

      “However, as has been argued in other contexts, just because one type of distractor effect is present does not preclude another type from existing (Chau et al., 2020; Kohl et al., 2023). Each type of distractor effect can dominate depending on the dynamics between the distractor and the chooseable options. Moreover, the fact that people have diverse ways of making decisions is often overlooked. Therefore, not only may the type of distractor effect that predominates vary as a function of the relative position of the options in the decision space, but also as a function of each individual’s style of decision making.” (Lines 48-54)

      Reviewer #3 Recommendations 2

      - The idea of mixture models/strategies has strong backing from other Cognitive Science domains and will appeal to most readers. It would be very valuable if the authors could further discuss the potential level at which their composite model might operate. Are the additive and EV quantities computed and weighted (as per the integration coefficient) within a trial giving rise to a composite decision variable? Or does the integration coefficient reflect a probabilistic (perhaps competitive) selection of one strategy on a given trial? Perhaps extant neural data can shed light on this question.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. The idea is related to whether the observed mixture in integration models derives from value being actually computed in a mixed way within each trial, or each trial involves a probabilistic selection between the additive and multiplicative strategies. We agree that this is an interesting question and to address it would require the use of some independent continuous measures to estimate the subjective values in quantitative terms (instead of using the categorical choice data). This could be done by collecting pupil size data or functional magnetic resonance imaging data, as the reviewer has pointed out. Although the empirical work is beyond the scope of the current behavioural study, it is worth bringing up this point in the Discussion:

      “The current finding involves the use of a composite model that arbitrates between the additive and multiplicative strategies. A general question for such composite models is whether people mix two strategies in a consistent manner on every trial or whether there is some form of probabilistic selection occurring between the two strategies on each trial such that only one strategy is used on any given trial while, on average, one strategy is more probable than the other. To test which is the case requires an independent estimation of subjective values in quantitative terms, such as by pupillometry or functional neuroimaging. Further understanding of this problem will also provide important insight into the precise way in which distractor effects operate at the single-trial level.” (Lines 275-282)

      Reviewer #3 Recommendations 3

      Line 80 "compare pairs of attributes separately, without integration". This additive rule (or the within-attribute comparison) implies integration, it is just not multiplicative integration.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have made adjustments to the manuscript to ensure that the message delivered within this manuscript is consistent.

      “For clarity, we stress that the same mathematical formula for additive value can be interpreted as meaning that 1) subjects first estimate the value of each option in an additive way (value integration) and then compare the options, or 2) subjects compare the two magnitudes and separately compare the two probabilities without integrating dimensions into overall values. On the other hand, the mathematical formula for multiplicative value is only compatible with the first interpretation. In this paper we focus on attribute combination styles (multiplicative vs additive) and do not make claims on the order of the operations. More particularly, we consider whether individual differences in combination styles could be related to different forms of distractor effect.” (Lines 92-100)

      Reviewer #3 Recommendations 4

      - Not clear why the header in line 122 is phrased as a question.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have modified the header to the following:

      “The distractor effect was absent on average” (Line 129)

      Reviewer #3 Recommendations 5

      - The discussion and integration of key neural findings with the current thesis are outstanding. It might help the readers if certain statements such as "the distractor effect is mediated by the PPC" (line 229) were further unpacked.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have made modifications to the original passage to further elaborate the statement.

      “At the neuroanatomical level, the negative distractor effect is mediated by the PPC, where signal modulation described by divisive normalization has been previously identified (Chau et al., 2014; Louie et al., 2011). The same region is also crucial for perceptual decision making processes (Shadlen & Shohamy, 2016).” (Lines 250-253)

      Reviewer #3 Recommendations 6

      - In Fig. 3c, there seem to be many participants having the integration coefficient close to 0 but the present violin plot doesn't seem to best reflect this highly skewed distribution. A histogram would be perhaps better here.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have modified the descriptive plots to use histograms instead of violin plots.

      “Figures 3c, d and e show the fitted parameters of the composite model: , the integration coefficient determining the relative weighting of the additive and multiplicative value ( , ); , the magnitude/probability weighing ratio ( , ); and , the inverse temperature ( , ). Our finding that the average integration coefficient  was 0.325 coincides with previous evidence that people were biased towards using an additive, rather than a multiplicative rule.” (Lines 186-191)

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors used a multi-alternative decision task and a multidimensional signaldetection model to gain further insight into the cause of perceptual impairments during the attentional blink. The model-based analyses of behavioural and EEG data show that such perceptual failures can be unpacked into distinct deficits in visual detection and discrimination, with visual detection being linked to the amplitude of late ERP components (N2P and P3) and discrimination being linked to the coherence of fronto-parietal brain activity.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of this paper lies in the fact that it presents a novel perspective on the cause of perceptual failures during the attentional blink. The multidimensional signal detection modelling approach is explained clearly, and the results of the study show that this approach offers a powerful method to unpack behavioural and EEG data into distinct processes of detection and discrimination.

      Thank you.

      Weaknesses:

      (1.1) While the model-based analyses are compelling, the paper also features some analyses that seem misguided, or, at least, insufficiently motivated and explained. Specifically, in the introduction, the authors raise the suggestion that the attentional blink could be due to a reduction in sensitivity or a response bias. The suggestion that a response bias could play a role seems misguided, as any response bias would be expected to be constant across lags, while the attentional blink effect is only observed at short lags. Thus, it is difficult to understand why the authors would think that a response bias could explain the attentional blink.

      In the revision, we seek to better motivate the bias component. A deficit in T2 identification accuracy could arise from either sensitivity or criterion effects at short lags. For example, in short T1-T2 lag trials participants may adopt a more conservative choice criterion for reporting the presence of T2 thereby yielding lower accuracies for short lags. Criterion effects need not be uniform across lags: A participant could infer the T1-T2 lag on each trial based on various factors, such as trial length, and systematically adjust their choice criterion across lags, prior to making a response.

      Below, we present a simple schematic for how a conservative choice criterion impacts accuracy. Consider a conventional attentional blink paradigm where the task is to detect and report T2's presence. For simplicity, we assume that prior probabilities for T2’s occurrence are equal, such that the number of “T2 present” and “T2 absent” trials are equal.

      We model this task with a one-dimensional signal detection theory (SDT) model (left panel). Here, ψ represents the decision variable and the red and gray Gaussians represent the conditional density of ψ for the T2 present (“signal”) and T2 absent (“noise”) conditions, respectively. We increase the criterion from its optimal value (here, midpoint of signal and noise means), to reflect increasingly conservative choices. As the criterion increases and deviates further from its optimal value – here, reflecting a conservative bias – accuracy drops systematically (right panel).

      Author response image 1.

      We have revised the Introduction as follows:

      “Distinguishing between sensitivity and criterion effects is crucial because a change in either of these parameters can produce a change in the proportion of correct responses[41,42]. A lower proportion of correct T2 detections may reflect not only a lower detection d’ at short lags but also a sub-optimal choice criterion corresponding, for instance, to a conservative detection bias (Fig. 1, right, top). Importantly, such criterion effects need not be uniform across intertarget lags: the lag on each trial could be inferred based on various factors, such as trial length, allowing participants to adopt different choice criteria for the different lags prior to making a response.”

      (1.2) A second point of concern regards the way in which the measures for detection and discrimination accuracy were computed. If I understand the paper correctly, a correct detection was defined as either correctly identifying T2 (i.e., reporting CW or CCW if T2 was CW or CCW, respectively, see Figure 2B), or correctly reporting T2's absence (a correct rejection).

      Here, it seems that one should also count a misidentification (i.e., incorrect choice of CW or CCW when T2 was present) as a correct detection, because participants apparently did detect T2, but failed to judge/remember its orientation properly in case of a misidentification. Conversely, the manner in which discrimination performance is computed also raises questions. Here, the authors appear to compute accuracy as the average proportion of T2present trials on which participants selected the correct response option for T2, thus including trials in which participants missed T2 entirely. Thus, a failure to detect T2 is now counted as a failure to discriminate T2. Wouldn't a more proper measure of discrimination accuracy be to compute the proportion of correct discriminations for trials in which participants detected T2?

      Indeed, detection and discrimination accuracies were computed with precisely the same procedure, and under the same conditions, as described by the Reviewer. We regret our poor description. For clarity, we have revised the following line in the Results section; we have also updated the Methods (section on Behavioral data analysis: Measuring attentional blink effects on psychometric quantities).

      “Detection accuracies were calculated based on the proportion of trials in which T2 was correctly detected (Methods). Briefly, we computed the average proportion of hits, misidentifications, and correct rejections; misidentifications were included because, although incorrectly identified, the target was nevertheless correctly detected. In contrast, discrimination accuracies were derived from T2 present trials, based on the proportion of correct identifications alone (Methods).”

      (1.3) My last point of critique is that the paper offers little if any guidance on how the inferred distinction between detection and discrimination can be linked to existing theories of the attentional blink. The discussion mostly focuses on comparisons to previous EEG studies, but it would be interesting to know how the authors connect their findings to extant, mechanistic accounts of the attentional blink. A key question here is whether the finding of dissociable processes of detection and discrimination would also hold with more meaningful stimuli in an identification task (e.g., the canonical AB task of identifying two letters shown amongst digits).

      There is evidence to suggest that meaningful stimuli are categorized just as quickly as they are detected (Grill-Spector & Kanwisher, 2005; Grill-Spector K, Kanwisher N. Visual recognition: as soon as you know it is there, you know what it is. Psychol Sci. 2005 Feb;16(2):152-60. doi: 10.1111/j.0956-7976.2005.00796.x. PMID: 15686582.). Does that mean that the observed distinction between detection and discrimination would only apply to tasks in which the targets consist of otherwise meaningless visual elements, such as lines of different orientations?

      Our results are consistent with previous literature suggested by the reviewer. Specifically, we model detection and discrimination not as sequential processes, but as concurrent computations (Figs. 3A-B). Yet, our results suggest that these processes possess distinct neural bases. We have further revised the Discussion in context of this literature in the revised manuscript.

      “…Interestingly, we found no evidence indicating that these two computations (detection and discrimination) were sequential; in fact, the modulation of beta coherence occurred almost immediately after T2 onset, and lasted well afterwards (>400 ms from T2 onset) (Fig. 5A-B) suggesting that an analysis of T2’s features proceeded in parallel with its detection and consolidation. We also modeled detection and discrimination as concurrent computations in our SDT model (Fig. 3A-B). Previous work suggests that while object detection and categorization processes proceed in parallel, detection and identification processes occur sequentially[77]. Our results are in line with this literature, if we consider T2’s discrimination judgement – clockwise versus counterclockwise of vertical – to be a categorization, rather than an identification judgement. Moreover, this earlier study[75] observed significant trial-wise correlations between detection and categorization responses, suggesting that the two processes involve the operation of the same perceptual filters (“analyzers”). Our study, on the other hand, reports distinct neural bases for detection and discrimination computations. Yet, the two sets of findings are not mutually contradictory.

      In many conventional attentional blink tasks[3,20,25], complex visual stimuli, like letters, must be detected among a stream of background distractors with closely similar features, such as digits. In this case, target detection would require the operation of shape-selective perceptual filters for feature analysis. These same shape-selective filters would be involved also for discriminating between distinct, but related target stimuli (e.g., two designated candidate letters). In our task, target gratings needed to be distinguished in a stream of plainly distinct background distractors (plaids), whereas the discrimination judgement involved analysis of grating orientation. As a result, our task design likely precludes the need for the same perceptual filters in the detection and the discrimination judgements. Absent this common feature analysis, our results suggest distinct electrophysiological correlates for the detection and discrimination of targets.”

      Reviewer #2 Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors had two aims: First, to decompose the attentional blink (AB) deficit into the two components of signal detection theory; sensitivity and bias. Second, the authors aimed to assess the two subcomponents of sensitivity; detection and discrimination. They observed that the AB is only expressed in sensitivity. Furthermore, detection and discrimination were doubly dissociated. Detection modulated N2p and P3 ERP amplitude, but not frontoparietal beta-band coherence, whereas this pattern was reversed for discrimination.

      Strengths:

      The experiment is elegantly designed, and the data - both behavioral and electrophysiological - are aptly analyzed. The outcomes, in particular the dissociation between detection and discrimination blinks, are consistently and clearly supported by the results. The discussion of the results is also appropriately balanced.

      Thank you.

      Weaknesses:

      (2.1) The lack of an effect of stimulus contrast does not seem very surprising from what we know of the nature of AB already. Low-level perceptual factors are not thought to cause AB. This is fine, as there are also other, novel findings reported, but perhaps the authors could bolster the importance of these (null) findings by referring to AB-specific papers, if there are indeed any, that would have predicted different outcomes in this regard.

      While there is consensus that the low-level perceptual factors are not affected by the attentional blink, other studies have suggested evidence to the contrary (e.g., Chua et al, Percept. Psychophys., 2005)[1]. We have mentioned the significance of our findings in the context of such conflicting evidence in literature, in the revised Discussion.

      “Surprisingly, we found no significant effect of contrast on either type of deficit (Figs. 2A-B). In other words, high (100%) contrast T2 stimuli were also strongly susceptible to the detection and discrimination bottlenecks associated with the attentional blink. Thus, despite a clear contrast-dependent encoding of T2 in early sensory cortex, the attentional blink produced a significant deficit with downstream processing, even for targets of high contrast. While at odds with some earlier work, which suggest an early-stage perceptual bottleneck [82–84], these results are largely consistent with findings from the majority of previous studies [3,7,9,11,19,20,82,85,86] which suggest a late-stage bottleneck.”

      (2.2) On an analytical note, the ERP analysis could be finetuned a little more. The task design does not allow measurement of the N2pc or N400 components, which are also relevant to the AB, but the N1 component could additionally be analyzed. In doing so, I would furthermore recommend selecting more lateral electrode sites for both the N1, as well as the P1. Both P1 and N1 are likely not maximal near the midline, where the authors currently focused their P1 analysis.

      We performed these suggested analysis. Whereas in the original submission we had used the O1, O2 and Oz electrodes, we now estimate the P1 and N1 with the more lateral P7 and P8 electrodes[2], as suggested by the reviewer.

      Even with these more lateral electrodes, we did not observe a significant N1 component in a 90-160 ms window[3] in the long lag trials (p=0.207, signed rank test for amplitude less than zero); a one-tailed Bayes factor (BF=1.35) revealed no clear evidence for or against an N1 component. Analysis of the P1 component with these more lateral electrodes also yielded no statistically significant blink-induced modulation (P1(short lag-long lag) = 0.25 ± 0.16, uV, p=0.231, BF=0.651) (SI Figure S3, revised).

      These updated analyses are now reported in the revised Results (lines 317-319) and Methods (lines 854-855). In addition, we have revised SI Table S2 with the new P1 component analysis.

      (2.3) Impact & Context:

      The results of this study will likely influence how we think about selective attention in the context of the AB phenomenon. However, I think its impact could be further improved by extending its theoretical framing. In particular, there has been some recent work on the nature of the AB deficit, showing that it can be discrete (all-or-none) and gradual (Sy et al., 2021; Karabay et al., 2022, both in JEP: General). These different faces of target awareness in the AB may be linked directly to the detection and discrimination subcomponents that are analyzed in the present paper. I would encourage the authors to discuss this potential link and comment on the bearing of the present work on these behavioural findings.

      Thank you. We have now discussed our findings in the context of these recent studies in the revised manuscript.

      “…In line with this hypothesis, we discovered that the attentional blink induced dissociable detection and discrimination deficits. There was no statistically significant correlation between these two types of deficits within and across participants and evidence for such a correlation was weak, at best. Unlike previous target identification designs that conflated attentional blink’s effect on detection versus discrimination performance[3,4,9,25,37], our 3-AFC task, and associated signal detection model enabled quantifying each of these deficits separately and identifying a double dissociation between their respective neural correlates. Our dissociation of the attentional blink into distinct subcomponents is complementary to recent studies, which examined whether the attentional blink reflects an all-or-none phenomenon[73,74]. For example, the T2 deficit induced by the attentional blink can be either all-or-none or graded, depending on whether T1 and T2 judgements involve distinct or common features, respectively[73]. While a graded change in precision could reflect sensitivity effects, an all-or-none change in guess rates – without a concomitant change in precision – may reflect a criterion increase (conservative detection bias) effect. Future experiments that incorporate a three-alternative response, with concurrent detection and discrimination, along with key task elements of these earlier studies, may further help resolve these findings.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the present study, the authors aimed to achieve a better understanding of the mechanisms underlying the attentional blink, that is, a deficit in processing the second of two target stimuli when they appear in rapid succession. Specifically, they used a concurrent detection and identification task in- and outside of the attentional blink and decoupled effects of perceptual sensitivity and response bias using a novel signal detection model. They conclude that the attentional blink selectively impairs perceptual sensitivity but not response bias, and link established EEG markers of the attentional blink to deficits in stimulus detection (N2p, P3) and discrimination (fronto-parietal high-beta coherence), respectively. Taken together, their study suggests distinct mechanisms mediating detection and discrimination deficits in the attentional blink.

      Strengths:

      Major strengths of the present study include its innovative approach to investigating the mechanisms underlying the attentional blink, an elegant, carefully calibrated experimental paradigm, a novel signal detection model, and multifaceted data analyses using state-of-the art model comparisons and robust statistical tests. The study appears to have been carefully conducted and the overall conclusions seem warranted given the results. In my opinion, the manuscript is a valuable contribution to the current literature on the attentional blink. Moreover, the novel paradigm and signal detection model are likely to stimulate future research.

      Thank you.

      Weaknesses:

      Weaknesses of the present manuscript mainly concern the negligence of some relevant literature, unclear hypotheses, potentially data-driven analyses, relatively low statistical power, potential flaws in the EEG methods, and the absence of a discussion of limitations. In the following, I will list some major and minor concerns in detail.

      (3.1) Hypotheses: I appreciate the multifaceted, in-depth analysis of the given dataset including its high amount of different statistical tests. However, neither the Introduction nor the Methods contain specific statistical hypotheses. Moreover, many of the tests (e.g., correlations) rely on selected results of previous tests. It is unclear how many of the tests were planned a priori, how many more were performed, and how exactly corrections for multiple tests were implemented. Thus, I find it difficult to assess the robustness of the results.

      We hypothesized that neural computations associated with target detection would be characterized by regional (local) neuronal markers (e.g., parietal or occipital ERPs), whereas computations linked to feature discrimination would involve neural coordination across multiple brain regions (e.g. fronto-parietal coherence) (lines 135-138). We planned and conducted our statistical tests based on this hypothesis. All multiple comparison corrections (Bonferroni-Holm correction, see Methods) were performed separately for each class of analyses.

      Based on this overarching hypothesis, the following tests were planned and conducted.

      ERP analysis: Based on an extensive review of recent literature[4] (Zivony et al., 2022 we performed the following tests: i) We tested whether four ERP component amplitudes (parietal P1, fronto-central P2, occipito-parietal N2p, and parietal P3) were significantly different between short and long lags with a Wilcoxon signed rank test followed by Bonferroni-Holm multiple comparison correction; ii) We correlated the ERPs whose amplitudes showed a significant difference in analysis (i) with detection and discrimination d’ deficits (six correlations) using robust (bend) correlations[5]; again, this was followed by a Bonferroni-Holm multiple comparison correction. Note that there is no circularity with planning analysis (ii) based on the results of analysis (i) because the latter is agnostic to detection versus discrimination blink deficits. In case (i), where no a priori hypothesis about directionality were available, all p-values were based on two-tailed tests but for case (ii), where we had an a priori directional hypothesis, p-values were computed from one-tailed tests. This has now been clarified in the revised Methods lines 937-940 and 950-952.

      Coherence analysis: Based on a seminal study of long-range synchrony modulation by the attentional blink[6], we examined fronto-parietal coherence in the beta (13-30 Hz) band, separately for the left and right hemispheres, and performed the following comparisons. i) We computed differences between the fronto-parietal coherogram (time-frequency representation of coherence, Fig. 5A-D) between short-lag and long-lag conditions, and performed a twodimensional cluster-based permutation test[7]; this method inherently corrects for multiple comparisons across time-frequency windows. ii) Because the analysis in (i) revealed the clearest evidence for coherence differences in the canonical high-beta (20-30 Hz band) in the left fronto-parietal electrodes (Figs. 5C-D; 0-300 ms following target onset), we correlated power in this band with detection and discrimination d’ deficits; this was followed by a Bonferroni-Holm multiple comparison correction. As before there is no circularity with planning analysis (ii) based on the results of analysis (i) because the latter is agnostic to detection versus discrimination blink deficits. Again, in case (i), where no a priori hypothesis about directionality was made, all p-values were based on two-tailed tests but for case (ii), where we had an a priori directional hypothesis, p-values were computed from one-tailed tests.

      For completeness, we performed all of the other correlations, for example, correlations with coherence in the low-beta band or with the right fronto-parietal electrodes (SI Table 3). These latter analyses were not planned, nor did they yield significant results.

      Neural distance analysis: This was a novel analysis designed to test the hypothesis that detection and discrimination deficits would be correlated with neural distances along distinct dimensions. i) First, we compared neural distances across lag conditions at different timepoints following target onset with a one-dimensional cluster-based permutation test[7] ; ii) Next, we correlated the neural distances along the detection and discrimination dimension with the detection and discrimination d’ deficits (Fig. 6E-F, 6G-H), as well as with the ERP and coherence markers (Fig. 7A-B, 7C-D). For each of these analyses, we employed robust (bend) correlations[5] followed by a Bonferroni-Holm multiple comparison correction. As before, pvalues were computed using two-tailed tests for case (i) and one-tailed tests for case (ii), based on the absence or presence of an a priori directional hypothesis.

      (3.2) Power: Some important null findings may result from the rather small sample sizes of N = 24 for behavioral and N = 18 for ERP analyses. For example, the correlation between detection and discrimination d' deficits across participants (r=0.39, p=0.059) (p. 12, l. 263) and the attentional blink effect on the P1 component (p=0.050, no test statistic) (p. 14, 301) could each have been significant with one more participant. In my opinion, such results should not be interpreted as evidence for the absence of effects.

      We have modified these claims in the revised Results. In addition, we now compute and report Bayes factors, which enable evaluating evidence for the presence versus absence of effects.

      “Detection and discrimination d’ deficits were not statistically significantly correlated (r=0.39, t=2.28, p=0.059); Bayes factor analysis revealed no clear evidence for or against a correlation between these subcomponent deficits (BF=1.18) (SI Fig. S2, left).”

      “Discrimination accuracy deficits were not statistically significantly different between high and low detection accuracy deficit blocks (z=1.97, p=0.067), and the Bayes factor revealed no strong evidence for or against such a difference (BF=1.42) (Fig. 3G).”

      In addition, the results are interpreted as follows (lines 294-296):

      “Moreover, detection and discrimination d’ deficits were not significantly correlated both within and across participants, with no clear evidence for or against a correlation, based on the Bayes factor.”

      The null result on the P1 has changed because of the analysis with the alternative electrode set suggested by Reviewer #2 (see comment #2.2). We now report these results as follows:

      “By contrast, the P1, an early sensory component, showed no statistically significant blinkinduced modulation (P1= 0.25 ± 0.16µV, z = 1.19, p=0.231, BF = 0.651) (SI Fig. S3).”

      (3.3) Neural basis of the attentional blink: The introduction (e.g., p. 4, l. 56-76) and discussion (e.g., p. 19, 427-447) do not incorporate the insights from the highly relevant recent review by Zivony & Lamy (2022), which is only cited once (p. 19, l. 428). Moreover, the sections do not mention some relevant ERP studies of the attentional blink (e.g., Batterink et al., 2012; Craston et al., 2009; Dell'Acqua et al., 2015; Dellert et al., 2022; Eiserbeck et al., 2022; Meijs et al., 2018).

      We have now cited these previous studies at the appropriate places in the revised Introduction.

      “The effect of the attentional blink on the processing of the second target is well studied. In particular, previous studies have investigated the stage at which attentional blink affects T2’s processing (early or late) [14–17] and the neural basis of this effect, including the specific brain regions involved[15,18–20]. Several theoretical frameworks characterize a sequence of phases of the attentional blink, including target selection based on relevance, detection, feature processing, and encoding into working memory[9,21]. Overall, there is little support for attentional blink deficits at an early, sensory encoding[14] stage; by contrast, the vast majority of literature suggests that T2’s processing is affected at a late stage[8,10]. Consistent with these behavioral results, scalp electroencephalography (EEG) studies have reported partial or complete suppression of late event-related potential (ERP) components, particularly those linked to attentional engagement (P2, N2, N2pc or VAN)[15,22–25], working memory (P3) [20,26–30] or semantic processing (N400)[31]; early sensory components (P1/N1) are virtually unaffected[20,24] (reviewed in detail in Zivony and Lamy, 2022[32]) .”

      (3.4) Detection versus discrimination: Concerning the neural basis of detection versus discrimination (e.g., p. 6, l. 98-110; p. 18, l. 399-412), relevant existing literature (e.g., Broadbent & Broadbent, 1987; Hillis & Brainard, 2007; Koivisto et al., 2017; Straube & Fahle, 2011; Wiens et al., 2023) is not included.

      Thank you for these suggestions. We have now cited these studies in the revised Discussion.

      “It is increasingly clear that detection and discrimination are separable processes, each mediated by distinct neural mechanisms. Behaviorally, accurately identifying the first target, versus merely detecting it, produces stronger deficits with identifying the second target[59]. Moreover, dissociable mechanisms have been reported to mediate object detection and discrimination in visual adaptation contexts[60]. Neurally, shape detection and identification judgements produce activations in non-overlapping clusters in various brain regions in the visual cortex, inferior parietal cortex, and the medial frontal lobe[61]. Similarly, occipital ERPs associated with conscious awareness also show clear differences between detection and discrimination. For instance, an early posterior negative component (200-300 ms) was significantly modulated in amplitude by success in detection, but not in identification[62]. The closely related visual awareness negativity (VAN) was substantially stronger at the detection, compared to the discrimination, threshold[63].

      Furthermore, a significant body of previous work has reported dissociable behavioural and neural mechanisms underlying attention’s effects on target detection versus discrimination. Behavioral studies have reported distinct effects on target detection versus discrimination in both endogenous[64] and exogenous[65] attention tasks.”

      (3.5) Pooling of lags and lags 1 sparing: I wonder why the authors chose to include 5 different lags when they later pooled early (100, 300 ms) and late (700, 900 ms) lags, and whether this pooling is justified. This is important because T2 at lag 1 (100 ms) is typically "spared" (high accuracy) while T2 at lag 3 (300 ms) shows the maximum AB (for reviews, see, e.g., Dux & Marois, 2009; Martens & Wyble, 2010). Interestingly, this sparing was not observed here (p. 43, Figure 2). Nevertheless, considering the literature and the research questions at hand, it is questionable whether lag 1 and 3 should be pooled.

      Lag-1 sparing is not always observed in attentional blink studies; there are notable exceptions to reports of lag-1 sparing[8,9]. Our statistical tests revealed no significant difference in accuracies between short lag (100 and 300 ms) trials or between long lag (700 and 900 ms) trials but did reveal significant differences between the short and long lag trials (ANOVA, followed by post-hoc tests). To simplify the presentation of the findings, we pooled together the short lag (100 and 300 ms) and, separately, the long lag (700 and 900 ms) trials. We have presented these analyses, and clarified the motivation for pooling these lags in the revised Methods.

      “Based on these psychometric measures, we computed detection and discrimination accuracies as follows. Detection accuracies were computed as the average proportion of the hits, misidentification and correct rejection responses; misidentifications were included because not missing the target reflected accurate detection. By contrast, discrimination accuracies were computed based on the average proportion of the two correct identifications (hits) on T2 present trials alone. We performed 2-way ANOVAs on both detection and discrimination accuracies with the inter-target lag (5 values) and T2 contrast independent factors. We found main effects of both lag (F(4,92)=18.81, p<0.001) and contrast (F(1,92)=21.78, p<0.001) on detection accuracy, but no interaction effect between lag and contrast (F(4,92)=1.92, p=0.113). Similarly, we found main effects of both lag (F(4,92)=25.08, p<0.001) and contrast (F(1,92)=16.58, p<0.001) on discrimination accuracy, but no interaction effect between lag and contrast (F(4,92)=0.93, p=0.450). Post-hoc tests based on Tukey’s HSD revealed a significant difference in discrimination accuracies between the two shortest lags (100 ms and 300 ms) and the two longest lags (700 and 900 ms) for both low and high contrast targets, and for both detection and discrimination accuracies (p<0.01). But they revealed no significant difference between the two shortest lags (p>0.25) or the two longest lags (p>0.40) for either target contrast or for either accuracy type. As a result, for subsequent analyses, we pooled together the “short lag” (100 ms and 300 ms) and the “long lag” (700 ms and 900 ms) trials. We quantified the effect of the attentional blink on each of the psychometric measures as well as detection and discrimination accuracies by comparing their respective, average values between the short lag and long lag trials, separately for the high and low T2 contrasts.”

      (3.6) Discrimination in the attentional blink. Concerning the claims that previous attentional blink studies conflated detection and discrimination (p. 6, l. 111-114; p. 18, l. 416), there is a recent ERP study (Dellert et al., 2022) in which participants did not perform a discrimination task for the T2 stimuli. Moreover, since the relevance of all stimuli except T1 was uncertain in this study, irrelevant distractors could not be filtered out (cf. p. 19, l. 437). Under these conditions, the attentional blink was still associated with reduced negativities in the N2 range (cf. p. 19, l. 427-437) but not with a reduced P3 (cf. p. 19, l 439-447).

      We have addressed the relationship between our findings and those of Dellert et al (2022)[10] in the revised Discussion.

      “… In the present study, we observed that the parietal P3 amplitude was correlated selectively with detection, rather than discrimination deficits. This suggests that the P3 deficit indexes a specific bottleneck with encoding and consolidating T2 into working memory, rather than an inability to reliably maintain its features. In this regard, a recent study[22] measured ERP correlates of the perceptual awareness of the T2 stimulus whose relevance was uncertain at the time of its presentation. In contrast to earlier work, this study observed no change in P3b amplitude across seen (detected) and unseen targets. Taken together with this study, our findings suggest that rather than indexing visual awareness, the P3 may index detection, but only when information about the second target, or a decision about its appearance, needs to be maintained in working memory. Additional experiments, involving targets of uncertain relevance, along with our behavioral analysis framework, may help further evaluate this hypothesis.”

      (3.7) General EEG methods: While most of the description of the EEG preprocessing and analysis (p. 31/32) is appropriate, it also lacks some important information (see, e.g., Keil et al., 2014). For example, it does not include the length of the segments, the type and proportion of artifacts rejected, the number of trials used for averaging in each condition, specific hypotheses, and the test statistics (in addition to p-values).

      We regret the lack of details. We have included these in the revised Methods, and expanded on the description of the trial rejection (SCADS) algorithm.

      The revised Methods section on EEG Preprocessing mentions the type and proportion of artifacts rejected:

      “We then epoched the data into trials and applied SCADS (Statistical Control of Artifacts in Dense Array EEG/MEG Studies[90]) to identify bad epochs and artifact contaminated channels. SCADS detects artifacts based on three measures: maximum amplitude over time, standard deviation over time, and first derivative (gradient) over time. Any electrode or trial exhibiting values outside the specified boundaries for these measures was excluded. The boundaries were defined as M ± n*λ, where M is the grand median across electrodes and trials for each of the three measures, and λ is the root mean square (RMS) of the deviation of medians across sensors relative to the grand median. We set n to 3, allowing data within three boundaries to be retained. The percentage of electrodes per participant rejected was 6.3 ± 0.43% (mean ± s.e.m. across participants), whereas the percentage of trials rejected per electrode and participant was 3.4 ± 0.33% (mean ± s.e.m.).”

      The revised Methods section on ERP analysis mentions the number of trials for averaging in each condition and the length of the segments:

      “First trials were sorted based on inter-target lags (100, 300, 500, 700 and 900 ms). This yielded an average of (200±13, 171±9.71, 145 ± 7.54, 117 ± 5.43, 87 ± 4.51 ) (mean ± s.e.m. across participants) trials for each of the 5 lags, respectively.”

      “Then, EEG traces were epoched from -300 ms before to +700 ms after either T1 onset or T2 onset and averaged across trials to estimate T1-evoked and T2-evoked ERPs, respectively.”

      Specific hypotheses are mentioned in response #3.1; we also now mention the test statistic associated with each test at the appropriate places in the Results. For example:

      “Among these ERP components, the N2p component and the P2 component were both significantly suppressed during the blink (∆amplitude, short-lag – long-lag: N2p=-0.47 ± 0.12 µV, z=-3.20, p=0.003, BF=40, P2=-0.19 ± 0.07 µV, z=-2.54, p=0.021, BF=4.83, signed rank test) (Fig. 4A, right). Similarly, the parietal P3 also showed a significant blink-induced suppression (P3= -0.45 ± 0.09µV, z=-3.59, p < 0.001, BF>10<sup>2</sup>) (Fig. 4B, right).”

      “Neural inter-class distances (||η||) along both the detection and discrimination dimensions decreased significantly during the blink (short lag-long lag: ∆||ηdet|| = -1.30 ± 0.70, z=-3.68, p=0.006, BF=20; ∆||ηdis|| = -1.23 ± 0.42, z=-3.54, p<0.001, BF>10<sup>2</sup>) (Figs. 6C-D).”

      (3.8) EEG filters: P. 31, l. 728: "The data were (...) bandpass filtered between 0.5 to 18 Hz (...). Next, a bandstop filter from 9-11 Hz was applied to remove the 10 Hz oscillations evoked by the RSVP presentation." These filter settings do not follow common recommendations and could potentially induce filter distortions (e.g., Luck, 2014; Zhang et al., 2024). For example, the 0.5 high-pass filter could distort the slow P3 wave. Mostly, I am concerned about the bandstop filter. Since the authors commendably corrected for RSVP-evoked responses by subtracting T2-absent from T2-present ERPs (p. 31, l. 746), I wonder why the additional filter was necessary, and whether it might have removed relevant peaks in the ERPs of interest.

      Thank you for this suggestion. Originally, the 9-11 Hz bandstop filter was added to remove the strong 10 Hz evoked oscillation from the EEG response for obtaining a cleaner signal for the other analyses, like the analysis of neural dimensions (Fig. 6)

      We performed two control ERP analyses to address the reviewers’ concern:

      (1) We removed the bandstop filter and re-evaluated the P1, P2, N2pc and P3 ERP amplitudes. We observed no statistically significant difference in the modulation of any of the 4 ERP components (P1: p=0.031, BF=0.692, P2: p=0.038, BF=1.21, N2pc: p=0.286, BF=0.269, P3: p=0.085, BF=0.277). In particular, Bayes Factor analysis revealed substantial evidence against a difference in the N2pc and P3 amplitudes before versus after the bandstop filter removal (BF<0.3).

      (2) We removed the bandstop filter and repeated all of the same analyses as reported in the Results and summarized in SI Table S2. We observed a virtually identical pattern of results, summarized in an analogous table, below (compare with SI Table S2, revised, in the Supplementary Information).

      Author response table 2.

      We have now mentioned this control analysis briefly in the Methods (lines 863-865).

      (3.9) Coherence analysis: P. 33, l. 786: "For subsequent, partial correlation analyses of coherence with behavioral metrics and neural distances (...), we focused on a 300 ms time period (0-300 ms following T2 onset) and high-beta frequency band (20-30 Hz) identified by the cluster-based permutation test (Fig. 5A-C)." I wonder whether there were any a priori criteria for the definition and selection of such successive analyses. Given the many factors (frequency bands, hemispheres) in the analyses and the particular shape of the cluster (p. 49, Fig 5C), this focus seems largely data-driven. It remains unclear how many such tests were performed and whether the results (e.g., the resulting weak correlation of r = 0.22 in one frequency band and one hemisphere in one part of a complexly shaped cluster; p. 15, l. 327) can be considered robust.

      Please see responses to comments #3.1 and #3.2 (above). In addition to reporting further details regarding statistical tests, their hypotheses, and multiple comparisons corrections, we computed Bayes factors to quantify the strength of the evidence for correlations, as appropriate. Interpretations have been rephrased depending on whether the evidence for the null or alternative hypothesis is strong or equivocal. For example:

      “Bayes factor analysis revealed no clear evidence for or against a correlation between these subcomponent deficits (BF=1.18) (SI Fig. S2, left).”

      “Discrimination accuracy deficits were not statistically significantly different between high and low detection accuracy deficit blocks (z=1.97, p=0.067), and the Bayes factor revealed no strong evidence for or against such a difference (BF=1.42) (Fig. 3G).”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1.a) Line 76-79: "Despite this extensive literature, previous studies have essentially treated the attentional blink as a unitary, monolithic phenomenon. As a result, fundamental questions regarding the component mechanisms of the attentional blink remain unanswered." This statement seems antithetical to the fact that theories of the AB suggest a variety of different mechanisms as possible causes of the effect.

      The statement has been revised as follows:

      “Despite this extensive literature, many previous studies have[ studied the attentional blink as a unitary phenomenon. While some theoretical models9,21,32] and experimental studies[38,39] have explored distinct mechanisms underlying the attentional blink, several fundamental questions about its distinct component mechanisms remain unanswered.”

      (1.b) Line 95-97: Here, the authors should explain in more detail how a response bias could fluctuate across lags.

      Addressed in response to public reviews, #1.1.

      (1.c) Line 98: I found this second question a much more compelling motivation for the study than the earlier stated question of whether the AB reflects a reduction in sensitivity or a fluctuation (?) of response bias.

      Thank you.

      (1.d) Line 143: What do the authors mean by "geometric" distribution of lags? In virtually all AB studies, the distribution of lags is uniform. Wasn't that the case in this study?

      We employed a geometric distribution for the trials of different lags, and verified that the sampled distribution of lags was well fit by this distribution (χ<sup>2</sup>(3, 312)=0.22, p=0.974). We chose a geometric distribution – with a flat hazard function[11] – over the uniform distribution to avoid conflating the effects of temporal expectation with those of the attention blink on criterion[12] at different lags.

      (1.e) Line 158-160: Explain why incorrect discrimination responses were not counted as correct detection. Explain why failure to detect T2 was counted as a discrimination error.

      Addressed in response to public reviews, #1.2.

      (1.f) Line 167: The results do not show lag-1 sparing, which is a typical property of the AB.

      The authors should report this, and explain why their paradigm did not show a sparing effect.

      Addressed in response to public reviews, #3.5.

      (1.g) Line 262-263: With only 24 participants, the study appears to be underpowered to reliably detect correlations. This should be noted as a limitation.

      Addressed in response to public reviews, #3.2.

      (1.h) Line 399-412: This section could be moved to the introduction to explain and motivate the aim of examining the distinct contributions of detection and discrimination to the AB.

      We have revised the Introduction to better motivate the aims of the study.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (2.a) A small note about the writing: as a matter of style, I would advise editing the generic phrasing (e.g., "shedding new light", "complex interplay") in abstract and general discussion.

      These are now revised as follows (for example):

      Line 26 - “These findings provide detailed insights into the subcomponents of the attentional blink….”

      Line 596 - “More broadly, these findings contribute to our understanding of the relationship between attention and perception….”

      (2.b) Some references appear double and/or without volume or page numbers (e.g., 44/61).

      Thank you. Amended now.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (3.a) Suggestions for additional analyses:

      I appreciate that the authors have quantified the evidence for null effects in simple comparisons using Bayes factors. In my opinion, the study would additionally benefit from Bayesian ANOVAs, which can also easily be implemented in JASP (Keysers et al., 2020), which the authors have already used for the other tests. As a result, they could further substantiate some of their claims related to null effects (e.g., p. 9, l. 175; p. 12, l. 246).

      Thank you. We have added Bayes factor values for ANOVAs (implemented in JASP[13]) wherever applicable in the revised manuscript. For example:

      “While we found a main effect of both lag (detection: F(1,23)=29.8, p<0.001, BF >10<sup>3</sup> discrimination: F(1,23)=54.1, p<0.001, BF >10<sup>3</sup>) and contrast (detection: F(1,23)=21.02, p<0.001, BF>10<sup>2</sup>, discrimination: F(1,23) =13.75, p=0.001, BF=1.22), we found no significant interaction effect between lag and contrast (detection: F(1,23)=1.92, p=0.113, BF=0.49, discrimination: F(1,23) = 0.93, p=0.450, BF=0.4).”

      “A two-way ANOVA with inter-target lag and T2 contrast as independent factors revealed a main effect of lag on both d’<sub>det</sub> (F(1,23)=30.3, p<0.001, BF>10<sup>3</sup>) and d’<sub>dis</sub> (F(1,23)=100.3, p<0.001, BF>10<sup>3</sup>). Yet, we found no significant interaction effect between lag and contrast for d’<sub>det</sub> (F(1,23)=2.3, p=0.141, BF=0.44).”

      Minor points

      (3.b) Statistics: Many p-values are reported without the respective test statistics (e.g., p. 9, l. 164; p. 12, l. 241-244 and 252-258; p. 13, l. 271, etc.).

      Addressed in response to public reviews, #3.7.

      (3.c) P. 4, l. 58: It is not entirely clear how the authors define "early or late". For example, while they consider the P2/N2/N2pc complex as "late" (l. 62-64), these ERP components are considered "early" in the debate on "early vs. late" neural correlates of consciousness (for a review, see Förster et al., 2020).

      We appreciate the debate. Our naming convention follows these seminal works[3,14–16].

      (3.d) P. 5., l. 77: "previous studies have essentially treated the attentional blinks as a unitary, monolithic phenomenon": There are previous studies in which both the presence and identity of T2 were queried (e.g., Eiserbeck et al., 2022; Harris et al., 2013).

      Addressed in response to recommendations for authors, #1.a.

      (3.e) P. 9, l. 169-177: The detection and discrimination accuracies are analyzed using twoway ANOVAs with the factors lags and contrast. I wonder why the lag effects are additionally analyzed using Wilcoxon signed rank tests using data pooled across the T2 contrasts (p., 9, l. 161-168)? If I understand it correctly, these tests should correspond to the main effects of lag in the ANOVAs. Indeed, both analyses lead to the same conclusions (l. 167 and l. 176).

      Our motivation was to first establish the attentional blink effect, with data pooled across contrasts. The subsequent ANOVA allowed delving deeper into contrast and interaction effects. Indeed, the results were consistent across both tests.

      (3.f) P. 12, l. 242: I wonder why the T2 contrasts are pooled in the statistical tests (but plotted separately, p. 45, Figure 3C).

      Model selection analysis distinct d’<sub>det</sub> parameter values across contrasts, as reflected in Fig. 3C. As mentioned in response #3.e contrasts effects were analyzed with an ANOVA.

      (3.g) P. 13, l. 287: "high and low contrast T2 trials were pooled to estimate reliable ERPs". The amount of trials per condition is not provided.

      Addressed in response to public reviews, #3.7.

      (3.h) P. 45, Figure 3D/F: In my opinion, plotting the contrasts and lags separately (despite the results of the model selection) would have provided a better idea of the data.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion, but followed the results of model selection for consistency.

      (3.i) P. 21, l. 470: "the left index finger to report clockwise orientations and the right index finger to report counter-clockwise orientations": This left/right mapping seems counterintuitive to me, and the authors also used the opposite mapping in Figures 1 and 2. It is not described in the Methods (p. 25) and thus is unclear.

      We regret the typo. Revised as follows:

      “...the left index finger to report counter-clockwise orientations and the right index finger to report clockwise orientations.”

      (3.j) P. 22, l. 514: "Taken together, these results suggest the following, testable schema (SI Figure S5)." Figure S5 seems to be missing.

      Amended. This is Fig. 8 in the revised manuscript.

      (3.k) P. 25, l. 559: I do not understand why the circular placeholders around the stimuli were included, and they are not mentioned in Figure 2A (p. 43). When I saw the figure and read the inscription, I wondered whether they were actually part of the stimulus presentation or symbolized something else.

      The placeholder was described in the earlier Methods section. We have now also mentioned it in caption for Fig. 2A.

      “All plaids were encircled by a circular placeholder. The fixation dot and the placeholder were present on the screen throughout the trial.”

      This avoided spatial uncertainty with estimating stimulus dimensions during the presentation.

      (3.l) P. 32, l. 754: The interval of interest for the P1 from 40 to 140 ms seems unusually early to me. The component usually peaks at 100 ms (e.g., at 96 ms in the cited study by Sergent et al., 2005), which also seems to be the case in the present study (Fig. S3, p. 57). I wonder how they were defined.

      For our analyses, we employed the peak value of the P1 ERP component in a window from 40-140 ms. The peak occurred around 100 ms (SI Fig. S3), which aligns with the literature.

      Additional minor comments:

      These comments have been all addressed, and typos corrected, by revising the manuscript at the appropriate places.

      3.m.1. L. 14: In my opinion, this sentence is difficult to read due to the nested combination of singular and plural forms. Importantly, as the authors also acknowledge (e.g., l. 83), perceptual sensitivity and choice bias could both be compromised, so I would suggest using plural and adding "or both" as a third option for clarity. See also p. 10, l. 204.

      3.m.2. L. 14: The comma before "As a result" should be replaced by a period.

      3.m.3. L. 45 "to guide Behavior" should be lowercase.

      3.m.4. L. 67: "Activity in the parietal, lateral prefrontal cortex and anterior cingulate cortex" could be read as if there was a "parietal, prefrontal cortex", so I would suggest removing the first "cortex".

      Revised/amended.

      3.m.5. L. 77: "fundamental questions regarding the component mechanisms of the attentional blink remain unanswered": The term "component mechanisms" is a bit unclear to me.

      We elaborate on this term in the very next set of paragraphs in the Introduction.

      3.m.6. L. 88: "a lower proportion of correct T2 detections can arise from a lower detection d'". "Arise from" sounds a bit off given that d' is a function of hits and false alarms.

      3.m.7. L. 95: I would suggest citing the updated edition of the classic "Detection Theory: A User's Guide" by Hautus, Macmillan & Creelman (2021).

      3.m.8. L. 102: "a oriented grating" should be "an".

      3.m.9. L. 126: "key neural markers - a local neural marker (event-related potentials) potentials" should be rephrased/corrected.

      3.m.10. L. 129: There are inconsistent tenses (mostly past tense but "we synthesize").

      3.m.11. L. 138: Perhaps the abbreviations (e.g., dva, cpd) should be introduced here (first mention) rather than in the Methods below.

      3.m.12. L. 148: "at the end of each trial participants first, indicated": The comma position should be changed.

      3.m.13. L. 176 "attentional blink-induced both a ...": The hyphen should be removed.

      3.m.14. L. 396: I think "but neither of them affects" would be better here.

      3.m.15. L. 383: "Detection deficits were signaled by ERP components such as the occipitoparietal N2p and the parietal P3": In my opinion, "such as" is too vague here.

      Revised/amended.

      3.m.16. L. 403: "Neurally, improved detection of attended targets is accompanied by (...) higher ERP amplitudes". Given the different mechanisms underlying the ERP, this section would benefit from more details.

      Addressed in response to public reviews, #3.4.

      3.m.17.    L. 924: References 18 and 46 seem to be the same.

      3.m.18.    L. 1181: I think d'det should be d'dis here.

      3.m.19.    L. 1284: "détection" should be "detection".

      3.m.20.    I found some Figure legends a bit confusing. For example, 5E refers to 4E, but 4E refers to 4C.

      3.m.21.    In Figures 4A/B and 6C/D, some conditions are hidden due to the overlap of CIs. Could they be made more transparent?

      Revised/amended.

      References:

      (1) Fook K.Chua. The effect of target contrast on the attentional blink. Percept Psychophys 5, 770–788 (2005).

      (2) Chmielewski, W. X., Mückschel, M., Dippel, G. & Beste, C. Concurrent information affects response inhibition processes via the modulation of theta oscillations in cognitive control networks. Brain Struct Funct 221, 3949–3961 (2016).

      (3) Sergent, C., Baillet, S. & Dehaene, S. Timing of the brain events underlying access to consciousness during the attentional blink. Nat Neurosci 8, 1391–400 (2005).

      (4) Zivony, A. & Lamy, D. What processes are disrupted during the attentional blink? An integrative review of event-related potential research. Psychon Bull Rev 29, 394–414 (2022).

      (5) Pernet, C. R., Wilcox, R. & Rousselet, G. A. Robust Correlation Analyses: False Positive and Power Validation Using a New Open Source Matlab Toolbox. Front Psychol 3, (2013).

      (6) Gross, J. et al. Modulation of long-range neural synchrony reflects temporal limitations of visual attention in humans. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 101, 13050–13055 (2004).

      (7) Eric Maris and Robert Oostenveld. Nonparametric statistical testing of EEG and MEG data. J Neurosci Methods 164, 177–190 (2007).

      (8) Hommel, B. & Akyürek, E. G. Lag-1 sparing in the attentional blink: Benefits and costs of integrating two events into a single episode. The Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology Section A 58, 1415–1433 (2005).

      (9) Livesey, E. J. & Harris, I. M. Target sparing effects in the attentional blink depend on type of stimulus. Atten Percept Psychophys 73, 2104–2123 (2011).

      (10) Dellert, T. et al. Neural correlates of consciousness in an attentional blink paradigm with uncertain target relevance. Neuroimage 264, 119679 (2022).

      (11) Nobre, A., Correa, A. & Coull, J. The hazards of time. Curr Opin Neurobiol 17, 465– 470 (2007).

      (12) Bang, J. W. & Rahnev, D. Stimulus expectation alters decision criterion but not sensory signal in perceptual decision making. Sci Rep 7, 17072 (2017).

      (13) JASP Team. JASP (version 0.19.0.) [Computer Software]. Preprint at (2022).

      (14) Luck, S. J. Electrophysiological Correlates of the Focusing of Attention within Complex Visual Scenes: N2pc and Related ERP Components. (Oxford University Press, 2011). doi:10.1093/oxfordhb/9780195374148.013.0161.

      (15) Brydges, C. R., Fox, A. M., Reid, C. L. & Anderson, M. Predictive validity of the N2 and P3 ERP components to executive functioning in children: a latent-variable analysis. Front Hum Neurosci 8, (2014).

      (16) Michalewski, H. J., Prasher, D. K. & Starr, A. Latency variability and temporal interrelationships of the auditory event-related potentials (N1, P2, N2, and P3) in normal subjects. Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology/Evoked Potentials Section 65, 59–71 (1986).

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The expression and localization of Foxc2 strongly suggest that its role is mainly confined to As undifferentiated spermatogonia (uSPGs). Lineage tracing demonstrated that all germ cells were derived from the FOXC2+ uSPGs. Specific ablation of the FOXC2+ uSPGs led to the depletion of all uSPG populations. Full spermatogenesis can be achieved through the transplantation of Foxc2+ uSPGs. Male germ cell-specific ablation of Foxc2 caused Sertoli-only testes in mice. CUT&Tag sequencing revealed that FOXC2 regulates the factors that inhibit the mitotic cell cycle, consistent with its potential role in maintaining a quiescent state in As spermatogonia. These data made the authors conclude that the FOXC2+ uSPG may be the true SSCs, essential for maintaining spermatogenesis. The conclusion is largely supported by the data presented, but two concerns should be addressed: 1) terminology used is confusing: primitive SSCs, primitive uSPGs, transit amplifying SSCs... 2) the GFP+ cells used for germ cell transplantation should be better controlled using THY1+ cells.

      Thanks for your good comments. According to your suggestions, we have addressed your two concerns as follows:

      1> Overall our work suggest that FOXC2+ SSCs are a subpopulation of SSCs in a quiescent state, thus we have replaced the term ‘primitive’ with ‘quiescent’ in the revised manuscript. In general, ‘transient amplifying SSCs’ is considered to be ‘progenitors’, thus we have replaced ‘transient amplifying SSCs’ with ‘progenitors’ in the revised manuscript.

      2> The transplantation experiment was conducted using MACS-sorted THY1+, FACS sorted THY1+, and FACS-sorted GFP+ (FOXC2+) uSPGs simultaneously. To be consistent with the single-cell RNA-seq using the MACS-sorted THY1+ uSPGs, we only presented the results from MACS-sorted THY1+ and FACS-sorted GFP+ (FOXC2+) uSPGs in the previous manuscript. Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have included the results derived from FACS sorted THY1+ uSPGs as the control. The overall conclusion is still fully supported by the more comprehensive dataset, i.e. FOXC2+ cells generated significant higher numbers of colonies than THY1+ cells after transplantation (Figure 2D, E).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors found FOXC2 is mainly expressed in As of mouse undifferentiated spermatogonia (uSPG). About 60% of As uSPG were FOXC2+ MKI67-, indicating that FOXC2 uSPG were quiescent. Similar spermatogonia (ZBTB16+ FOXC2+ MKI67-) were also found in human testis.

      The lineage tracing experiment using Foxc2iCreERT2/+;Rosa26LSL-T/G/LSL-T/G mice demonstrated that all germ cells were derived from the FOXC2+ uSPG. Furthermore, specific ablation of the FOXC2+ uSPGs using Foxc2iCreERT2/+;Rosa26LSL-DTA/+ mice resulted in the depletion of all uSPG population. In the regenerative condition created by busulfan injection, all FOXC2+ uSPG survived and began to proliferate at around 30 days after busulfan injection. The survived FOXC2+ uSPGs generated all germ cells eventually. To examine the role of FOXC2 in the adult testis, spermatogenesis of Foxc2f/-;Ddx4Cre/+ mice was analyzed. From a 2-month-old, the degenerative seminiferous tubules were increased and became Sertoli cell-only seminiferous tubules, indicating FOXC2 is required to maintain normal spermatogenesis in adult testes. To get insight into the role of FOXC2 in the uSPG, CUT&Tag sequencing was performed in sorted FOXC2+ uSPG from Foxc2iCreERT2/+;Rosa26LSL-T/G/LSL-T/G mice 3 days after TAM diet feeding. The results showed some unique biological processes, including negative regulation of the mitotic cell cycle, were enriched, suggesting the FOXC2 maintains a quiescent state in spermatogonia.

      Lineage tracing experiments using transgenic mice of the TAM-inducing system was well-designed and demonstrated interesting results. Based on all data presented, the authors concluded that the FOXC2+ uSPG are primitive SSCs, an indispensable subpopulation to maintain adult spermatogenesis.

      The conclusion of the mouse study is mostly supported by the data presented, but to accept some of the authors' claims needs additional information and explanation. Several terminologies define cell populations used in the paper may mislead readers.

      1) "primitive spermatogonial stem cell (SSC)" is confusing. SSCs are considered the most immature subpopulation of uSPG. Thus, primitive uSPGs are likely SSCs. The naming, primitive SSCs, and transit-amplifying SSCs (Figure 7K) are weird. In general, the transit-amplifying cell is progenitor, not stem cell. In human and even mouse, there are several models for the classification of uSPG and SSCs, such as reserved stem cells and active stem cells. The area is highly controversial. The authors' definition of stem cells and progenitor cells should be clarified rigorously and should compare to existing models.

      Thanks for your good comments. Considering that our results showed that FOXC2+ SSCs are in a quiescent state and that Mechanistically FOXC2 maintained the quiescent state of SSCs by promoting the expression of negative regulators of cell cycle, we have replaced ‘primitive SSCs’ with ‘quiescent SSCs’ in the revised manuscript. We agree with the reviewer that ‘transient amplifying SSCs’ is considered to be ‘progenitors’, thus we have replaced ‘transient amplifying SSCs’ with ‘progenitors’ in the revised manuscript. Further,from our point of view, the FOXC2+Ki67+ SSCs could be regarded as active stem cells, and the FOXC2+Ki67- SSCs could be regarded as reserved stem cells, although further research evidence is still needed to confirm this.

      2) scRNA seq data analysis and an image of FOXC2+ ZBTB16+ MKI67- cells by fluorescent immunohistochemistry are not sufficient to conclude that they are human primitive SSCs as described in the Abstract. The identity of human SSCs is controversial. Although Adark spermatogonia are a candidate population of human SSCs, the molecular profile of the Adark spermatogonia seems to be heterogeneous. None of the molecular profiles was defined by a specific cell cycle phase. Thus, more rigorous analysis is required to demonstrate the identity of FOXC2+ ZBTB16+ MKI67- cells and Adark spermatogonia.

      We agree with the reviewer that the identity of human SSCs remain elusive even though Adark population demonstrates certain characteristics of SSCs. To acknowledge this notion, we have revised our conclusion as such that only suggests FOXC2+ZBTB16+MKI67- represents a quiescent state of human SSCs.

      3) FACS-sorted GFP+ cells and MACS-THY1 cells were used for functional transplantation assay to evaluate SSC activity. In general, the purity of MACS is significantly lower than that of FACS. Therefore, FACS-sorted THY1 cells must be used for the comparative analysis. As uSPGs in adult testes express THY1, the percentage of GFP+ cells in THY1+ cells determined by flow cytometry is important information to support the transplantation data.

      Thanks for your good comments. According to your suggestions, we have addressed your concerns as follows:

      1> The transplantation experiment was conducted using MACS-sorted THY1+, FACS sorted THY1+, and FACS-sorted GFP+ (FOXC2+) uSPGs simultaneously. To be consistent with the single-cell RNA-seq using the MACS-sorted THY1+ uSPGs, we only presented the results from MACS-sorted THY1+ and FACS-sorted GFP+ (FOXC2+) uSPGs in the previous manuscript. Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have included the results derived from FACS sorted THY1+ uSPGs as the control. The overall conclusion is still fully supported by the more comprehensive dataset, i.e. FOXC2+ cells generated significant higher numbers of colonies than THY1+ cells after transplantation (Figure 2D, E).

      2> We performed FACS analysis to determine the proportion of GFP+ cells in FACS-sorted THY1+ cells from Rosa26LSL-T/G/LSL-T/G or Foxc2iCreERT2/+;Rosa26LSL-T/G/LSL-T/G mice at day 3 post TAM induction, and the result showed that GFP+ cells account for approximately 20.9±0.21% of THY1+ cells, See Author response image 1.

      Author response image 1.

      4) The lineage tracing experiments of FOXC2+-SSCs in Foxc2iCreERT2/+;Rosa26LSL-T/G/LSL-T/G showed ~95% of spermatogenic cells and 100% progeny were derived from the FOXC2+ (GFP+) spermatogonia (Figure 2I, J) at month 4 post-TAM induction, although FOXC2+ uSPG were quiescent and a very small subpopulation (~ 60% of As, ~0.03% in all cells). This means that 40% of As spermatogonia and most of Apr/Aal spermatogonia, which were FOXC2 negative, did not contribute to spermatogenesis at all eventually. This is a striking result. There is a possibility that FOXC2CRE expresses more widely in the uSPG population although immunohistochemistry could not detect them.

      Thanks for your good comments. From our lineage tracing results, over 95% of the spermatogenic cells are derived from the FOXC2+ SSCs in the testes of 4-month-old mice, which means that FOXC2+ SSCs maintain a long-term stable spermatogenesis. In addition, previous studies have shown that only a portion of As spermatogonia belong to SSCs with complete self-renewal ability (PMID: 28087628, PMID: 25133429), which is consistent with our findings. Therefore, we speculate that 40% of As spermatogonia and most of Apr/Aal spermatogonia, which were FOXC2 negative, did contribute to spermatogenesis but cannot maintain a long-term spermatogenesis due to limited self-renewal ability.

      5) The CUT&Tag_FOXC2 analysis on the FACS-sorted FOXC2+ showed functional enrichment in biological processes such as DNA repair and mitotic cell cycle regulation (Figure 7D). The cells sorted were induced Cre recombinase expression by TAM diet and cut the tdTomato cassette out. DNA repair process and negative regulation of the mitotic cell cycle could be induced by the Cre/lox recombination process. The cells analyzed were not FOXC2+ uSPG in a normal physiological state.

      We do appreciate the reviewer’s concern on the possibility of the functions enriched in the analysis as referred might be derived from Cre/lox recombination. However, we think it is unlikely that the Cre/lox recombination process, supposed to be rather local and specific, can trigger such a systemic and robust response by the DNA damage and cell cycle regulatory pathways. The reasons are as follows: First, as far as we are aware, there has been sufficient data to support this suggested scenario. Second, we did not observe any alteration in either the SSC behaviors or spermatogenesis in general upon the TAM-induced genomic changes, suggesting the impact from the Cre/lox recombination on DNA damage or cell cycle was not significant. Third, no factors associated with the DNA repair process were revealed in the differential analysis of single-cell transcriptomes of FOXC2-WT and FOXC2-KO.

      6) Wei et al (Stem Cells Dev 27, 624-636) have published that FOXC2 is expressed predominately in As and Apr spermatogonia and requires self-renewal of mouse SSCs; however, the authors did not mention this study in Introduction, but referred shortly this at the end of Discussion. Their finding should be referred to and evaluated in advance in the Introduction.

      Thanks for your good comments. According to your suggestion, we have revised the introduction to refer this latest parallel work on FOXC2. We are happy to see that our discoveries are converged to the important role of FOXC2 in regulating SSCs in adult mammals.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      By popular single-cell RNA-seq, the authors identified FOXC2 as an undifferentiated spermatogonia-specific expressed gene. The FOXC2+-SSCs can sufficiently initiate and sustain spermatogenesis, the ablation of this subgroup results in the depletion of the uSPG pool. The authors provide further evidence to show that this gene is essential for SSCs maintenance by negatively regulating the cell cycle in adult mice, thus well-established FOXC2 as a key regulator of SSCs quiescent state.

      The experiments are well-designed and conducted, the overall conclusions are convincing. This work will be of interest to stem cell and reproductive biologists.

      Thanks for the positive feedback.  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the Authors):

      The authors should address the following concerns:

      1) The most primitive uSPGs should be the true SSCs. The term "primitive SSCs" is very confusing.

      2) In addition to FACS-sorted GFP+ cells, FACS-sorted THY1+ cells should also be used for transplantation.

      Thanks for your good comments. According to your suggestions, we have addressed your two concerns as follows:

      1) Overall our work suggest that FOXC2+ SSCs are a subpopulation of SSCs in a quiescent state, thus we have replaced the term ‘primitive’ with ‘quiescent’ in the revised manuscript.

      2) The transplantation experiment was conducted using MACS-sorted THY1+, FACS sorted THY1+, and FACS-sorted GFP+ (FOXC2+) uSPGs simultaneously. To be consistent with the single-cell RNA-seq using the MACS-sorted THY1+ uSPGs, we only presented the results from MACS-sorted THY1+ and FACS-sorted GFP+ (FOXC2+) uSPGs in the previous manuscript. Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have included the results derived from FACS sorted THY1+ uSPGs as the control. The overall conclusion is still fully supported by the more comprehensive dataset, i.e. FOXC2+ cells generated significant higher numbers of colonies than THY1+ cells after transplantation (Figure 2D, E).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the Authors):

      The experiments are well-designed and conducted, the overall conclusions are convincing. The only concerns are the writing, especially the introduction which was not well-rationalized. Sounds the three subtypes and three models for SSCs' self-renew are irrelevant to the major points of this manuscript. I don't think you need to talk too much about the markers of SSCs. Instead, I suggest you provide more background about the quiescent or activation states of the SSCs. In addition to that, as a nuclear-localized protein, it cannot be used to flow cytometric sorting, I don't think it should be emphasized as a marker. You identified a key transcription factor for maintaining the quiescent state of the primitive SSCs, that's quite important!

      Appreciate the positive feedback and constructive suggestions on the writing. We have substantially revised our manuscript to include the relevant advances and understanding from the field as well as highlight the importance of FOXC2 in regulating the quiescent state of SSCs.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) One issue that needs to be considered is the nomenclature of the enhancer. The authors have presented data to show this enhancer controls the expression of Ctnnb1 in the stomach, intestine, and colon tissues. However, the name proposed by the authors, ieCtnnb1 (intestinal enhancer of Ctnnb1), doesn't represent its functions. It might be more appropriate to call it a different name, such as gieCtnnb1 (gastrointestinal enhancer of Ctnnb1).

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful suggestion and agree that wholemount reporter assays indicated ieCtnnb1 and ieCTNNB1 indeed display activity in the stomach. However, in current study, we focused on the cellular distribution and the function in intestinal epithelia. After careful consideration, we reasoned that the current designation, ieCtnnb1, would be more appropriately represent its expression pattern and functions based on provided evidence. We hope the reviewer could understand our reasoning.  

      (2) The writing of this manuscript can be improved in a few places. 

      a) The definitions or full names for the abbreviations of some terms, e.g., Ctnnb1, ieCtnnb1, in both abstract and main text, are needed when they first appear. Specifically, Line 108 should be moved to Lines 26 and 95. Lines 125126 are redundant. ieCtnnb1 in Line 130 needs to be defined.

      We appreciate the suggestion. In the revision, we have included the definition of Ctnnb1 and the full name of ieCtnnb1 when they first appear in the abstract and the main text. Lines 125-126 were deleted in the revision.

      b) Line 192-194, the description of the result needs to be rewritten to reflect

      the higher expression of LacZ transcript in eGFP+ cells. 

      We would like to emphasize that the key point of this part is that the enhancer activity of ieCtnnb1 is present in both Lgr5-eGFP+ and Lgr5-eGFP- cells. This was validated by single-cell sequencing, which revealed the presence of LacZ transcripts in the Paneth cells. Moreover, we could not confidently conclude that eGFP+ cells have higher expression levels of LacZ, as these measurements were obtained from separate, semi-quantitative RTqPCR experiments.

      c)  More details are needed for how the data using human tumor samples were generated and how they were analyzed. 

      We thank the suggestion. In the revision, we have provided additional details regarding the data and subsequent analyses of human CRC samples as follows: “We previously conducted paired analyses of chromatin immunoprecipitation sequencing (ChIP-seq) for H3K27ac and H3K4me3, alongside RNA-seq on 68 CRC samples and their adjacent normal (native) tissue (Li et al., 2021).  In the current study, we performed analyses for the enrichment of H3K27ac and H3K4me3 at ieCTNNB1 and CTNNB1 promoter regions, as well as the expression levels of CTNNB1, followed by combined analyses (Figure. 5A, Figure 5 - figure supplement 1).”

      d) The genomic structures from multiple species are presented at the bottom of Figure 1a. However, the description and explanation are lacking in both the main text and the figure legend.

      We apologize for not presenting clearly. We have added related description in the legend of Figure 1A as “The sequence conservation of the indicated species is shown at the bottom as vertical lines”. We also added an explanation in lines 162-163 of the main text: “Notably, unlike neCtnnb1, the primary sequence of ieCtnnb1 is not conserved among vertebrates (Figure 1A, bottom)”.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) One of the main issues emerging during reading concerns the interpretation of the consequence of deleting the ieCtnnb1 enhancer. The authors write on line 235 that the deletion of ieCtnnb1 "undermined" Wnt signaling in the intestinal epithelium. This feels too strong, as the status of the pathway is only mildly affected, testified by the observation that mice with homozygous deletion on ieCtnnb1 are alive and well. The enhancer likely "only" drives higher Ctnnb1 expression, and it does not affect Wnt signaling by other mechanisms. The reduction of Wnt target gene expression upon its deletion is easily interpreted as the consequence of reduced β-catenin. Also the title, in my opinion, allows this ambiguity to stick in readers' minds. In other words, the authors present no evidence that the ieCtnnb1 enhancer controls Wnt signaling dosage via any mechanism other than its upregulation of Ctnnb1 expression in the intestinal epithelium. Reduced Ctnnb1, in turn, could explain the observed reduction of Wnt signaling output and the interesting downstream physiological consequences. Unless the authors think otherwise, I suggest they clarify this throughout the text, including necessary modifications to the title.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s important comments and suggestion. We agree that ieCtnnb1’s direct effect on the canonical Wnt signaling is to regulate the transcription of Ctnnb1 in the intestinal epithelia. Therefore, knockout of ieCtnnb1 leads to compromised expression of Ctnnb1 and, consequently, reduced Wnt signaling.  The term “undermined” is indeed too strong and has been revised to “compromised” in the revision (line 237). Similar revisions have been made throughout the manuscript. Particularly, the title was changed into “A Ctnnb1 enhancer transcriptionally regulates Wnt signaling dosage to balance homeostasis and tumorigenesis of intestinal epithelia”. However, as we state in the following point, decreased levels of β-catenin on ieCtnnb1 loss could lead to indirect effect, including the reduced expression of Bambi, which might cause a more significant decrease of nuclear β-catenin.

      (2) It is unclear how the reduction of Ctnnb1 mRNA caused by deletion of ieCtnnb1 in mice could lead to a preferential decrease of nuclear more than membranous β-catenin (Fig. 1K and L). This might reflect a general cell autonomous reduction in Wnt signaling activation; yet, it is not clear how this could occur. Do the authors have any explanations for this?

      It's a very important question. We observed that in inCtnnb1 knockout epithelia, the expression of Bambi (BMP and activin membrane-bound inhibitor) was significantly downregulated. Since BAMBI has been reported to stabilize β-catenin and facilitate its nuclear translocation, it is likely that the reduced level of BAMBI resulting from the loss of ieCtnnb1 further decreased nuclear βcatenin. In the revision, the expression change of Bambi has been added in Figure 1M. Moreover, the related content was extensively discussed with proper citations: “We noticed that after knocking out ieCtnnb1, the level of βcatenin in the nuclei of small intestinal crypt cells of Ctnnb1Δi.enh mice decreased more significantly compared to that in the cytoplasm (49.5% vs. 29.8%). Although the loss of ieCtnnb1 should not directly lead to reduced nuclear translocation of β-catenin, RNA-seq results showed that the loss of ieCtnnb1 causes a reduction in the expression of Bambi (BMP and activin membranebound inhibitor), a target gene in the canonical Wnt signaling pathway (Figure 1M). BAMBI promotes the binding of Frizzled to Dishevelled, thereby stabilizing β-catenin and facilitating its nuclear translocation (Lin et al., 2008; Liu et al., 2014; Mai et al., 2014; Zhang et al., 2015). Thus, it is likely that the decreased level of BAMBI resulting from the loss of ieCtnnb1 further reduced nuclear βcatenin”. 

      (3) In Figure 1 K-L the authors show β-catenin protein level. Why not show its mRNA?

      The mRNA levels of Ctnnb1 in small and large intestinal crypts were shown in Figure 1I and 1J, demonstrating reduced expression of Ctnnb1 upon ieCtnnb1 knockout. We hope the reviewer understands that it is unnecessary to measure the nuclear and cytosolic levels of Ctnnb1 transcripts, as the total mRNA level generally reflects the protein level. 

      (4) Concerning the GSEA of Figure 1 that includes the Wnt pathway components: a) it would be interesting to see which components and to what extent is their expression affected; b) why should the expression of Wnt components that are not Wnt target genes be affected in the first place? It is odd to see this described uncritically and used to support the idea of downregulated Wnt signaling.

      We appreciate the suggestion and apologize for any lack of clarity. The affected components of the Wnt signaling pathway and the extent of their changes are summarized in Figure 1 – figure supplement 3. Additionally, we have provided explanations for their downregulation. For instance, the reduced expression of Wnt3 and Wnt2b ligands in ieCtnnb1-KO crypts may be attributed to the decreased numbers of Paneth cells.  

      (5) In lines 251-252 the authors refer to "certain technical issues" in the isolation of cell type from the intestinal epithelium. Why this part should be obscure in the characterization of a tissue for which there are several established protocols of isolation and analysis is not clear. I would rather describe what these issues have been and how they protocol of isolation and analysis is not clear. I would rather describe what these issues have been and how they might have affected the data presented.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The single-cell preparation and sequencing of small intestinal cryptal epithelial cells were carried out largely according to reported protocols with slight modification. The enrichment of live crypt epithelial cells (EpCAM+DAPI-) by flow cytometry and cell filtering after single-cell sequencing were appropriate (Figure 2 – figure supplement 1A1C). We would like to emphasize a few points: 1) Unlike other protocols, we did not exclude immune cells, erythrocytes, or endothelial cells using negative sorting antibodies. 2) When defining cell populations, we focused exclusively on epithelial cell types and did not consider other cell types, such as immune cells. As a result, the so-called “undefined” cells include a mixture of nonepithelial cells. Indeed, markers for erythrocytes (AY036118/Erf1, PMID:12894589) and immune cells (Gm42418 and Lars2, PMID:30940803, PMID: 35659337) were the top three enriched genes in the “undefined” cluster (Figure 2 – figure supplement 1D). 3) Nonetheless, the overall findings remain robust, as key observations such as the loss of Paneth cells and reduced cell proliferation were validated through histological studies. This information has been incorporated into the revised manuscript with related references cited (lines 254-259). 

      (6) It is interesting that human SNPs exist that seem to fall within the ieCTNNB1 enhancer and affect the gastrointestinal expression of CTNNB1. Could the author report or investigate whether this SNP is present in human populations that have been considered in large-scale studies for colorectal cancer susceptibility? It seems to me a rather obvious next step of extreme importance to be ignored.

      (7) From Figure 5A a reader could conclude that colorectal tumor cells have a higher expression of CTNNB1 mRNA than in normal epithelium. This is the first time I have seen this observation which somewhat undermines our general understanding of Wnt-induced carcinogenesis exclusively initiated by APC mutations whereby it is β-catenin's protein level, not expression of its mRNA, of crucial importance. I find this to be potentially the most interesting observation of the current study, which could be linked to the activity of the enhancer discovered, and I suggest the authors elaborate more on this and perhaps consider it for future experimental follow-ups.

      We appreciate the comments and suggestions.  We therefore added related content in the revision (lines 470-475): “Importantly, ieCTNNB1 displayed higher enhancer activity in most CRC samples collected in the study. Moreover, the SNP rs15981379 (C>T) within ieCTNNB1 is associated with the expression of CTNNB1 in the GI tract. Future population studies could investigate how the enhancer activity of ieCTNNB1 and this particular SNP are associated with CRC susceptibility and prognosis”.

      (8) I am surprised that the authors, who seem to have dedicated lots of resources to this study, are satisfied by analyzing their ChIP experiments with qPCR rather than sequencing (Figure 6). ChIP-seq would produce a more reliable profile of the HNF4a and CREB1 binding sites on these loci and in other control regions, lending credibility to the whole experiment and binding site identification. Sequencing would also take care of the two following conceptual problems in primer design. 

      First: while the strategy to divide enhancer and promoter in 6 regions to improve the resolution of their finding is commendable, I wonder how the difference in signal reflects primers' efficiency rather than HNF4/CREB1 exact positioning. The possibility of distinguishing between regions 2 and 3, for example, in a ChIP-qPCR experiment, also depends on the average DNA fragment length after sonication, a parameter that is not specified here. 

      Second: what are the primers designed to detect the ieCtnnb1 enhancer amplifying in the yellow-columns samples of Figure 6G? In this sample, the enhancer is deleted, and no amplification should be possible, yet it seems that a value is obtained and set to 1 as a reference value.

      This is indeed a crucial point, and we fully agree with the reviewer that “ChIP-seq would produce a more reliable profile of the HNF4a and CREB1 binding sites on these loci and in other control regions”. However, we believe that our current ChIP-qPCR experiments have adequately addressed the potential concerns raised by the reviewers. (1) We have ensured that the DNA fragment length after sonication falls within the range of 200 bp to 500 bp, with an average length of approximately 300 bp (Author response image 1A). We have stated the point in the revised methods section (line 633). (2) We have randomly inspected 14 out of 26 primer sets used in Figure 6 and its supplemental figure (Author response image 1B-E), confirming that all primer sets demonstrate equal amplification efficiency (ranging from 90% to 110%). This information has also been included in the revised methods section (line 650). (3) Figures 6G and 6H show reduced enrichment of HNF4𝛼 (6G) and p-S133-CREB1 (6H) at the Ctnnb1 promoter in ieCtnnb1 knockout ApcMin/+ tumor tissues. The ChIP-qPCR primers used were positioned at the Ctnnb1 promoter, not at ieCtnnb1, with IgG control enrichment serving as the reference values on the Y-axes. 

      Author response image 1.

      (A) Agarose gel electrophoresis of sonicated DNA. (B-E) Tests of amplification efficiency for primer sets used in ChIP-qPCR.

      (9) The ChIP-qPCR showing preferential binding of pS133-CREB1 in small intestinal crypts and CHT15 cells (line 393) should be shown. 

      The ChIP-qPCR results demonstrating preferential binding of p-S133-

      CREB1 over CREB1 have been added in revised Figure 6C, 6D and Figure 6 – Supplement 1C.

      (10) It is not entirely clear what the blue tracks represent at the bottom of Figures 6C-D and Figure 6 - Figure Supplement 1C-D. The ChIP-seq profiles of both CREB1 and HNF4a shown in Figures 6A and Figure 6 - Figure Supplement 1A do not seem to match. Taking HNF4a, for example from Figure 6 - Figure Supplement 1A it seems to bind on the Ctnnb1 promoter, while in Figure 6 - Figure Supplement 1D the peaks are within the first intron. I realize this might all be a problem with a different scale across figure panels, but I suggest producing a cleared figure.

      We apologize for the confusion. We have revised Figure 6C-6D, Figure 6 - figure supplement 1C-D, and the corresponding legends to enhance clarity. (1) The top panels of Figures 6C and 6D respectively highlight shaded regions of ieCTNNB1 (pink) and the CTNNB1 promoter (grey) in Figure 6A, emphasizing the enrichment of p-S133-CREB1.  (2) The top panels of Figure 6 – figure supplement 1C and 1D respectively highlight shaded regions of ieCtnnb1 (pink) and the Ctnnb1 promoter (grey) in Figure 6A – figure supplement 1A, emphasizing the enrichment of HNF4α. (3) Because Figures 6C-6D and Figure 6 - figure supplement 1C-1D respectively correspond to human and mouse genomes, the positions of peaks and scales differ.  

      (11) In the intro the authors refer to "TCF-4". I suggest they use the more recent unambiguous nomenclature for this family of transcription factors and call it TCF7L2.

      TCF-4 has been changed into TCF7L2 in the revision (line 81)

      (12) In lines 121-122, the authors write "Although numerous putative enhancers...only a fraction of them were functionally annotated". To what study/studies are the authors referring? Please provide references.

      References were added in the revision (line 124)

      (13) In some parts the authors use strong words that should in my opinion be attenuated. Examples are: (i) at line 224, "maintains" would be better substituted with "contribute", as in the absence of ieCtnnb1, Ctnnb1 is still abundantly expressed; (ii) at line 266 "compromised" when the proliferative capacity of CFCs and TACs seems to be only mildly reduced; (iii) at line 286 "disrupts", the genes are simply downregulated.

      We thank these great suggestions. 1) On lines 224-225, the sentence was revised to: “These data suggest that ieCtnnb1 plays a specific role in regulating the transcription of Ctnnb1 in intestinal epithelia”. 2) On line 271, “compromised” were replaced with “mildly reduced”. 3) In ieCtnnb1 knockout epithelial cells of small intestine, genes related to secretory functions were decreased, while genes related to absorptive functions were increased. Therefore, the term 'disrupts' is more appropriate than 'downregulates'. 

      Reviewer #3:

      Line 81, c-Myc should be human MYC (italics) to agree with the other human gene names in this sentence. 

      c-Myc has been changed into MYC in the revision (line 82)

      Line 215, wildtype should be wild-type. 

      “wildtype” has been changed into “wild-type” in the revision (line 215)

      Line 224, Elimination of the enhancer did not abolish expression of Ctnnb1; therefore, it would be better to say that it "helps to maintain Ctnnb1 transcription" 

      The sentence was changed into “These data suggest that ieCtnnb1 plays a specific role in regulating the transcription of Ctnnb1 in intestinal epithelia” in revision (lines 224-225)

      Line 228, perhaps "to activate transcription" is meant. 

      “active” has been changed into “activate” in the revision (line 228)

      Line 235, consider "reduced" instead of "undermined". 

      “undermined” has been replaced with “compromised” in the revision (line 237)

      Line 262, "em" dashes should be a both ends of this insertion. 

      Line 298, "dysfunctional" would be better.

      Line 356, "samples were". 

      Line 481, 12-hr (add hyphen). 

      All above points have been optimized according to the reviewer’s suggestion.

      Line 712, Is "poly-N" meant? 

      “Poly-N” indicates undetected bases during sequencing. This explanation was added in the revision (lines 759-760).

      Figure 1K, the GAPDH signal is not visible and that panel is unnecessary as there is an H3 control.   

      Figure 1K and 1L respectively show levels of nuclear and cytoplasmic βcatenin. GAPDH and H3 were used as internal references for the cytoplasmic and nuclear fractions, respectively, confirming both robust fractionation and equal loading.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The iron manipulation experiments are in the whole animal and it is likely that this affects general feeding behaviour, which is known to affect NB exit from quiescence and proliferative capacity. The loss of ferritin in the gut and iron chelators enhancing the NB phenotype are used as evidence that glia provide iron to NB to support their number and proliferation. Since the loss of NB is a phenotype that could result from many possible underlying causes (including low nutrition), this specific conclusion is one of many possibilities.

      We have investigated the feeding behavior of fly by Brilliant Blue (sigma, 861146)[1]. Our result showed that the amount of dye in the fly body were similar between control group and BPS group, suggesting that BPS almost did not affect the feeding behavior (Figure 3—figure supplement 1A).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      There was a gap between the Pros nuclear localization and downstream targets of ferritin, particularly NADH dehydrogenase and biosynthesis. Could overexpression of Ndi1 restore Pros localization in NBs?

      Ferritin defect downregulates iron level, which leads to cell cycle arrest of NBs via ATP shortage. And cell cycle arrest of NBs probably results in NB differentiation[2, 3]. We have added the experiment in Figure 5—figure supplement 2. This result showed that overexpression of Ndi1 could significantly restore Pros localization in NBs.

      The abstract requires revision to cover the major findings of the manuscript, particularly the second half.

      We revised the abstract to add more major findings of the manuscript in the second half as follows:

      “Abstract

      Stem cell niche is critical for regulating the behavior of stem cells. Drosophila neural stem cells (Neuroblasts, NBs) are encased by glial niche cells closely, but it still remains unclear whether glial niche cells can regulate the self-renewal and differentiation of NBs. Here we show that ferritin produced by glia, cooperates with Zip13 to transport iron into NBs for the energy production, which is essential to the self-renewal and proliferation of NBs. The knockdown of glial ferritin encoding genes causes energy shortage in NBs via downregulating aconitase activity and NAD+ level, which leads to the low proliferation and premature differentiation of NBs mediated by Prospero entering nuclei. More importantly, ferritin is a potential target for tumor suppression. In addition, the level of glial ferritin production is affected by the status of NBs, establishing a bicellular iron homeostasis. In this study, we demonstrate that glial cells are indispensable to maintain the self-renewal of NBs, unveiling a novel role of the NB glial niche during brain development.”

      In Figure 2B Mira appeared to be nuclear in NBs, which is inconsistent with its normal localization. Was it Dpn by mistake?

      In Figure 2B, we confirmed that it is Mira. Moreover, we also provide a magnified picture in Figure 2B’, showing that the Mira mainly localizes to the cortex or in the cytoplasm as previously reported.

      Figure 2C, Fer1HCH-GFP/mCherry localization was non-uniform in the NBs revealing 1-2 regions devoid of protein localization potentially corresponding to the nucleus and Mira crescent enrichment. It is important to co-label the nucleus in these cells and discuss the intracellular localization pattern of Ferritin.

      We have revised the picture with nuclear marker DAPI in Figure 2C. The result showed that Fer1HCH-GFP/Fer2LCH-mCherry was not co-localized with DAPI, which indicated that Drosophila ferritin predominantly distributes in the cytosol[4, 5]. As for the concern mentioned by this reviewer, GFP/mCherry signal in NBs was from glial overexpressed ferritin, which probably resulted in non-uniform signal.

      In Figure 3-figure supplement 3F, glial cells in Fer1HCH RNAi appeared to be smaller in size. This should be quantified. Given the significance of ferritin in cortex glial cells, examining the morphology of cortex glial cells is essential.

      In Figure 3—figure supplement 3F, we did not label single glial cells so it was difficult to determine whether the size was changed. However, it seems that the chamber formed by the cellular processes of glial cells becomes smaller in Fer1HCH RNAi. The glial chamber will undergo remodeling during neurogenesis, which responses to NB signal to enclose the NB and its progeny[6]. Thus, the size of glial chamber is regulated by NB lineage size. In our study, ferritin defect leads to the low proliferation, inducing the smaller lineage of each NB, which likely makes the chamber smaller.

      Since the authors showed that the reduced NB number was not due to apoptosis, a time-course experiment for glial ferritin KD is recommended to identify the earliest stage when the phenotype in NB number /proliferation manifests during larval brain development.

      We observed brains at different larval stages upon glial ferritin KD. The result showed that NB proliferation decreased significantly, but NB number declined slightly at the second-instar larval stage (Figure 5—figure supplement 1E and F), suggesting that brain defect of glial ferritin KD manifests at the second-instar larval stage.

      Transcriptome analysis on ferritin glial KD identified genes in mitochondrial functions, while the in vivo EM data suggested no defects in mitochondria morphology. A short discussion on the inconsistency is required.

      For the observation of mitochondria morphology via the in vivo EM data, we focused on visible cristae in mitochondria, which was used to determine whether the ferroptosis happens[7]. It is possible that other details of mitochondria morphology were changed, but we did not focus on that. To describe this result more accurately, we replaced “However, our observation revealed no discernible defects in the mitochondria of NBs after glial ferritin knockdown” with the “However, our result showed that the mitochondrial double membrane and cristae were clearly visible whether in the control group or glial ferritin knockdown group, which suggested that ferroptosis was not the main cause of NB loss upon glial ferritin knockdown” in line 207-209.

      The statement “we found no obvious defects of brain at the first-instar larval stage (0-4 hours after larval hatching) when knocking down glial ferritin (Figure 5-figure supplement 1C).” lacks quantification of NB number and proliferation, making it challenging to conclude.

      We have provided the quantification of NB number and proliferation rate of the first-instar larval stage in Figure 5—figure supplement 1C and D. The data showed that there is no significant change in NB number and proliferation rate when knocking down ferritin, suggesting that no brain defect manifests at the first-instar larval stage.

      A wild-type control is necessary for Figure 6A-C as a reference for normal brain sizes.

      We have added Insc>mCherry RNAi as a reference in Figure 6A-D, which showed that the brain size of tumor model is larger than normal brain. Moreover, we removed brat RNAi data from Figure 6A-D to Figure 6—figure supplement 1A-D for the better layout.

      In Figures 6B, D, “Tumor size” should be corrected to “Larval brain volume”.

      Here, we measured the brain area to assess the severity of the tumor via ImageJ instead of 3D data of the brain volume. So we think it would be more appropriate to use the “Larval brain size” than “Larval brain volume” here. Thus, we have corrected “Tumor size” to “Larval brain size” in Figure 6B and D to Figure 6—figure supplement 1B and D.

      Considering that asymmetric division defects in NBs may lead to premature differentiation, it is advisable to explore the potential involvement of ferritin in asymmetric division.

      aPKC is a classic marker to determine the asymmetric division defect of NB. We performed the aPKC staining and found it displayed a crescent at the apical cortex based on the daughter cell position whether in control or glial ferritin knockdown (Figure 5—figure supplement 3A). This result indicated that there was no obvious asymmetric defect after glial ferritin knockdown.

      In the statement "Secondly, we examined the apoptosis in glial cells via Caspase-3 or TUNEL staining, and found the apoptotic signal remained unchanged after glial ferritin knockdown (Figure 3-figure supplement 3A-D).", replace "the apoptosis in glial cells" with "the apoptosis in larval brain cells".

      We have replaced "the apoptosis in glial cells" with "the apoptosis in larval brain cells" in line 216.

      Include a discussion on the involvement of ferritin in mammalian brain development and address the limitations associated with considering ferritin as a potential target for tumor suppression.

      We have added the discussion about ferritin in mammalian brain development in line 428-430 and limitation of ferritin for suppressing tumor in line 441-444.

      Indicate Insc-GAL4 as BDSC#8751, even if obtained from another source. Additionally, provide information on the extensively used DeRed fly stock used in this study within the methods section.

      We provided the stock information of Insc-GAL4 and DsRed in line 673-674.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major points:

      The number of NBs differs a lot between experiments. For example, in Fig 1B and 1K controls present less than 100 NBs whereas in Figure 1 Supplementary 2B it can be seen that controls have more than 150. Then, depending on which control you compare the number of NBs in flies silencing Fer1HCH or Fer2LCH, the results might change. The authors should explain this.

      Figure 1 Supplementary 2B (Figure 1 Supplementary 3B in the revised version) shows NB number in VNC region while Fig 1B and 1K show NB number in CB region. At first, we described the general phenotype showing the NB number in CB and VNC respectively (Fig 1 and Fig 1-Supplementary 1 and 3 in the revised version). And the NB number is consistent in each region. After then, we focused on NB number in CB for the convenience.

      This reviewer encourages the authors to use better Gal4 lines to describe the expression patterns of ferritins and Zip13 in the developing brain. On the one hand, the authors do not state which lines they are using (including supplementary table). On the other hand, new Trojan GAL4 (or at least InSite GAL4) lines are a much better tool than classic enhancer trap lines. The authors should perform this experiment.

      All stock source and number were documented in Table 2. Ferritin GAL4 and Zip13 GAL4 in this study are InSite GAL4. In addition, we also used another Fer2LCH enhancer trapped GAL4 to verify our result (DGRC104255) and provided the result in Figure 2—figure supplement 1. Our data showed that DsRed driven by Fer2LCH-GAL4 was co-localized with the glia nuclear protein Repo, instead of the NB nuclear protein Dpn, which was consistent with the result of Fer1HCH/Fer2LCH GAL4. In addition, we will try to obtain the Trojan GAL4 (Fer1HCH/Fer2LCH GAL4 and Zip13 GAL4) and validate this result in the future.

      The authors exclude very rapidly the possibility of ferroptosis based only on some mitochondrial morphological features without analysing the other hallmarks of this iron-driven cell death. The authors should at least measure Lipid Peroxidation levels in their experimental scenario either by a kit to quantify by-products of lipid peroxidation such as Malonaldehide (MDA) or using an anti 4-HNE antibody.

      We combined multiple experiments to exclude the possibility of ferroptosis. Firstly, ferroptosis can be terminated by iron chelator. And we fed fly with iron chelator upon glial ferritin knockdown, but NB number and proliferation were not restored, which suggested that ferroptosis probably was not the cause of NB loss induced by glial ferritin knockdown (Figure 3B and C). Secondly, Zip13 transports iron into the secretary pathway and further out of the cells in Drosophila gut[8]. Our data showed that knocking down iron transporter Zip13 in glia resulted in the decline of NB number and proliferation, which was consistent with the phenotype upon glial ferritin knockdown (Figure 3E-G). More importantly, the knockdown of Zip13 and ferritin simultaneously aggravated the phenotype in NB number and proliferation (Figure 3E-G). These results suggested that the phenotype was induced by iron deficiency in NB, which excluded the possibility of iron overload or ferroptosis to be the main cause of NB loss upon glial ferritin knockdown. Finally, we observed mitochondrial morphology on double membrane and the cristae that are critical hallmarks of ferroptosis, but found no significant damage (Figure 3-figure supplement 2E and F).

      In addition, we have added the 4-HNE determination in Figure 3—figure supplement 2G and H. This result showed that 4-HNE level did not change significantly, suggesting that lipid peroxidation was stable, which supported to exclude the possibility that the ferroptosis led to the NB loss upon glial ferritin knockdown.

      All of the above results together indicate that ferroptosis is not the cause of NB loss after ferritin knockdown.

      A major flaw of the manuscript is related to the chapter Glial ferritin defects result in impaired Fe-S cluster activity and ATP production and the results displayed in Figure 4. The authors talk about the importance of FeS clusters for energy production in the mitochondria. Surprisingly, the authors do not analyse the genes involved in this process such as but they present the interaction with the cytosolic FeS machinery that has a role in some extramitochondrial proteins but no role in the synthesis of FeS clusters incorporated in the enzymes of the TCA cycle and the respiratory chain. The authors should repeat the experiments incorporating the genes NSF1 (CG12264), ISCU(CG9836), ISD11 (CG3717), and fh (CG8971) or remove (or at least rewrite) this entire section.

      Thanks for this constructive advice and we have revised this in Figure 4B and C. We repeated the experiment with blocking mitochondrial Fe-S cluster biosynthesis by knocking down Nfs1 (CG12264), ISCU(CG9836), ISD11 (CG3717), and fh (CG8971), respectively. Nfs1 knockdown in NB led to a low proliferation, which was consistent with CIA knockdown. However, we did not observe the obvious brain defect in ISCU(CG9836), ISD11 (CG3717), and fh (CG8971) knockdown in NB. Our interpretation of these results is that Nfs1 probably is a necessary core component in Fe-S cluster assembly while others are dispensable[9].

      The presence and aim of the mouse model Is unclear to this reviewer. On the one hand, It Is not used to corroborate the fly findings regarding iron needs from neuroblasts. On the other hand, and without further explanation, authors migrate from a fly tumor model based on modifying all neuroblasts to a mammalian model based exclusively on a glioma. The authors should clarify those issues.

      Although iron transporter probably is different in Drosophila and mammal, iron function is conserved as an essential nutrient for cell growth and proliferation from Drosophila to mammal. The data of fly suggested that iron is critical for brain tumor growth and thus we verified this in mammalian model. Glioma is the most common form of central nervous system neoplasm that originates from neuroglial stem or progenitor cells[10]. Therefore, we validated the effect of iron chelator DFP on glioma in mice and found that DFP could suppress the glioma growth and further prolong the survival of tumor-bearing mice.

      Minor points

      Although referred to adult flies, the authors did not include either in the introduction or in the discussion existing literature about expression of ferritins in glia or alterations of iron metabolism in fly glia cells (PMID: 21440626 and 25841783, respectively) or usage of the iron chelator DFP in drosophila (PMID: 23542074). The author should check these manuscripts and consider the possibility of incorporating them into their manuscript.

      Thanks for your remind. We have incorporated all recommended papers into our manuscript line 65-67 and 168.

      The number of experiments in each figure is missing.

      All experiments were repeated at least three times. And we revised this in Quantifications and Statistical Analysis of Materials and methods.

      If graphs are expressed as mean +/- sem, it is difficult to understand the significance stated by the authors in Figure 2E.

      We apologize for this mistake and have revised this in Quantifications and Statistical Analysis. All statistical results were presented as means ± SD.

      When authors measure aconitase activity, are they measuring all (cytosolic and mitochondrial) or only one of them? This is important to better understand the experiments done by the authors to describe any mitochondrial contribution (see above in major points).

      In this experiment, we were measuring the total aconitase activity. We also tried to determine mitochondrial aconitase but it failed, which was possibly ascribed to low biomass of tissue sample.

      In this line, why do controls in aconitase and atp lack an error bar? Are the statistical tests applied the correct ones? It is not the same to have paired or unpaired observations.

      It is the normalization. We repeated these experiments at least three times in different weeks respectively, because the whole process was time-consuming and energy-consuming including the collection of brains, protein determination and ATP or aconitase determination. And the efficiency of aconitase or ATP kit changed with time. We cannot control the experiment condition identically in different batches. Therefore, we performed normalization every time to present the more accurate result. The control group was normalized as 1 via dividing into itself and other groups were divided by the control. This normalized process was repeated three times. Therefore, there is no error bar in the control group. We think it is appropriate to apply ANOVA with a Bonferroni test in the three groups.

      In some cases, further rescue experiments would be appreciated. For example, expression of Ndi restores control NAD+ levels or number of NBs, it would be interesting to know if this is accompanied by restoring mitochondrial integrity and its ability to produce ATP.

      We have determined ATP production after overexpressing Ndi1 and provided this result in Figure 4—figure supplement 1B. The data showed that expression of Ndi1 could restore ATP production upon glial Fer2LCH knockdown, which was consistent with our conclusion.

      Lines 293-299 on page 7 are difficult to understand.

      According to our above results, the decrease of NB number and proliferation upon glial ferritin knockdown (KD) was caused by energy deficiency. As shown in the schematic diagram (Author response image 1), “T” represented the total energy which was used for NB maintenance and proliferation. “N” indicated the energy for maintaining NB number. “P” indicated the energy for NB proliferation. “T” is equal to “N” plus “P”. When ferritin was knocked down in glia, “T”, “N” and “P” declined in “Ferritin KD” compared to “wildtype (WT)”. Knockdown of pros can prevent the differentiation of NB, but it cannot supply the energy for NB, which probably results in the rescue of NB number but not proliferation. Specifically, NB number increased significantly in “Ferritin KD Pros KD” compared to “Ferritin KD”, which resulted in consuming more energy for NB maintenance in “Ferritin KD Pros KD”. As shown in the schematic diagram, “T” was not changed between “Ferritin KD Pros KD” and “Ferritin KD”, whereas ”N” was increased in “Ferritin KD Pros KD” compared to “Ferritin KD”. Thus, “P” was decreased, which suggested that less energy was remained for proliferation, leading to the failure of rescue in NB proliferation. It seemed that the level of proliferation in “Ferritin KD Pros KD” was even lower than “Ferritin KD”.

      Author response image 1.

      The schematic diagram of relationship between energy and NB function in different groups. “T” represents total energy for NB maintenance and proliferation. “N” represents the energy for NB maintenance. “P” represents the energy for NB proliferation. T=N+P 

      Line 601 should indicate that Tables 2 and 3 are part of the supplementary material.

      We have revised this in line 678.

      Figure 4-supplement 1. Only validation of 2 genes from a RNAseq seems too little.

      We dissected hundreds of brains for sorting NBs because of low biomass of fly brain. This is a difficult and energy-consuming work. Most NBs were used for RNA-seq, so we can only use a small amount of sample left for validation which is not enough for more genes.

      Figure 6E, the authors indicate that 10 mg/ml DFP injection could significantly prolong the survival time. Which increase in % is produced by DFP?

      We have provided the bar graph in Author response image 2. The increase is about 16.67% by DFP injection.

      Author response image 2.

      The bar graph of survival time of mice treated with DFP. (The unpaired two-sided Student’s t test was employed to assess statistical significance. Statistical results were presented as means ± SD. n=7,6; *: p<0.05)

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As I read the initial results that built the story (glia make ferritin>release it> NBs take them up>use it for TCA and ETC) I kept thinking about what it meant for NBs to be 'lost'. This led me to consider alternate possibilities that the results might point to, other than the ones the authors were suggesting. It was only in Figure 5 that the authors ruled out some of those possibilities. I would suggest that they first illustrate how NBs are lost upon glial ferritin loss of function before they delve into the mechanism. This would also be a place to similarly address that glial numbers and general morphology are unchanged upon ferritin loss.

      This recommendation provides a valuable guideline to build this story especially for researchers who are interested in neural stem cell studies. Actually, we tried this logic to present our study but found that there are several gaps in the middle of the manuscript, such as the relationship between glial ferritin and Pros localization in NB, so that the whole story cannot be fluently presented. Therefore, we decided to present this study in the current way.

      More details of the screen would be useful to know. How many lines did they screen, what was the assay? This is not mentioned anywhere in the text.

      We have added this in Screen of Materials and methods. We screened about 200 lines which are components of classical signaling pathways, highly expressed genes in glial cells or secretory protein encoding genes. UAS-RNAi lines were crossed with repo-Gal4, and then third-instar larvae of F1 were dissected. We got the brains from F1 larvae and performed immunostaining with Dpn and PH3. Finally, we observed the brain in Confocal Microscope.

      Many graphs seem to be repeated in the main figures and the supplementary data. This is unnecessary, or at least should be mentioned.

      We appreciate your kind reminder. However, we carefully went through all the figures and did not find the repeated graphs, though some of them look similar.

      The authors mention that they tested which glial subtypes ferritin is needed in, but don't show the data. Could they please show the data? Same with the other iron transport/storage/regulation. Also, in both this and later sections, the authors could mention which Gal4 was used to label what cell types. The assumption is that the reader will know this information.

      We have added the result of ferritin knockdown in glial subpopulations in Figure 1—figure supplement 2. However, considering that the quantity of iron-related genes, we did not take the picture, but we recorded this in Table 3.

      For all their images showing colocalisation, magnified, single-colour images shown in grayscale will be useful. For example, without the magnification, it is not possible to see the NB expression of the protein trap line in Figure 2B. A magnified crop of a few NBs (not a single one like in 2C) would be more useful.

      We have provided Figure 2A’, B’, D’ and Figure 3D’ as suggested.

      There are a lot of very specific assays used to detect ROS, NAD, aconitase activity, among others. It would be nice to have a brief but clear description of how they work in the main text. I found myself having to refer to other sources to understand them. (I believe SoNAR should be attributed to Zhao et al 206 and not Bonnay et al 2020.)

      We have added a brief description about ROS, aconitase activity, NAD in line 198-199, 229-231, and 269 as suggested.

      I did not understand the normalisation done with respect to SoNAR. Is this standard practice? Is the assumption that 'overall protein levels will be higher in slowly proliferating NBs' reasonable? This is why they state the need to normalise.

      The SoNAR normalization is not a standard practice. However, we think that our normalization of SoNar is reasonable. According to our results, the expression level of Dpn and Mira seemed higher in glial ferritin knockdown, so we speculated that some proteins accumulated in slowly proliferating NBs. Thus, we used Insc-GAL4 to drive DsRed for indicating the expression level of Insc and found that DsRed rose after glial ferritin knockdown, suggesting that Insc expression was increased indeed. Therefore, we have to normalize SoNar driven by Insc-GAL4 based on DsRed driven by Insc-Gal4, which eliminates the effect of increased Insc upon glial ferritin knockdown.

      FAC is mentioned as a chelator? But the authors seem to use it oppositely. Is there an error?

      FAC is a type of iron salt, which is used to supply iron. We have also indicated that in line 156 according to your advice. 

      The lack of any cell death in the L3 brain surprised me. There should be plenty of hemilineages that die, as do many NBs, particularly in the abdominal segments. Is the stain working? Related to this, P35 is not the best method for rescuing cell death. H99 might be a better way to go.

      We were also surprised to see this result and repeated this experiment for several times with both negative and positive controls. Moreover, we also used TUNEL to validate this result, which led to the same result. We will try to use H99 to rescue NB loss in the future, because it needs to be integrated and recombined with our current genetic tools.

      It would be nice to see the aconitase activity signal as opposed to just the quantification.

      This method can only determine the absorbance for indicating aconitase activity, so our result is just the quantification.

      Glia are born after NBs are specified. In fact, they arise from NBs (and glioblasts). So, it's unlikely that the knockdown of ferritin in glia can at all affect initial NB specification.

      We completely agree with this statement.

      The section on tumor suppression seems out of place. The fly data on which the authors base this as an angle to chase is weak. Dividing cells will be impaired if they have inadequate energy production. As a therapeutic, this will affect every cell in the body. I'm not sure that cancer therapeutics is pursuing such broadly acting lines of therapies anymore.

      Our data suggested that iron/ferritin is more critical for high proliferative cells. Tumor cells have a high expression of TfR (Transferrin Receptor)[11], which can bind to Transferrin and ferritin[12]. And ferritin specifically targets on the tumor cells[11]. Thus, we think iron/ferritin is extremely essential for tumor cells. If we can find the appropriate dose of iron/ferritin inhibitor, suppressing tumor growth but maintaining normal cell growth, iron/ferritin might be an effective target of tumor treatment.

      The feedback from NB to glial ferritin is also weak data. The increased cell numbers (of unknown identity) could well be contributing to the increase in ferritin. I would omit the last two sections from the MS.

      In brat RNAi and numb RNAi, increased cells are NB-like cells, which cannot undergo further differentiation and are not expected to produce ferritin. More importantly, we used Repo (glia marker) as the reference and quantified the ratio of ferritin level to Repo level, which can exclude the possibility that increased glial cells lead to the increase in ferritin.

      References

      (1) Tanimura T, Isono K, Takamura T, et al. Genetic Dimorphism in the Taste Sensitivity to Trehalose in Drosophila-Melanogaster. J Comp Physiol, 1982,147(4):433-7

      (2) Myster DL, Duronio RJ. Cell cycle: To differentiate or not to differentiate? Current Biology, 2000,10(8):R302-R4

      (3) Dalton S. Linking the Cell Cycle to Cell Fate Decisions. Trends in Cell Biology, 2015,25(10):592-600

      (4) Nichol H, Law JH, Winzerling JJ. Iron metabolism in insects. Annu Rev Entomol, 2002,47:535-59

      (5) Pham DQ, Winzerling JJ. Insect ferritins: Typical or atypical? Biochim Biophys Acta, 2010,1800(8):824-33

      (6) Speder P, Brand AH. Systemic and local cues drive neural stem cell niche remodelling during neurogenesis in Drosophila. Elife, 2018,7

      (7) Mumbauer S, Pascual J, Kolotuev I, et al. Ferritin heavy chain protects the developing wing from reactive oxygen species and ferroptosis. PLoS Genet, 2019,15(9):e1008396

      (8) Xiao G, Wan Z, Fan Q, et al. The metal transporter ZIP13 supplies iron into the secretory pathway in Drosophila melanogaster. Elife, 2014,3:e03191

      (9) Marelja Z, Leimkühler S, Missirlis F. Iron Sulfur and Molybdenum Cofactor Enzymes Regulate the  Life Cycle by Controlling Cell Metabolism. Front Physiol, 2018,9

      (10) Morgan LL. The epidemiology of glioma in adults: a "state of the science" review. Neuro-Oncology, 2015,17(4):623-4

      (11) Fan K, Cao C, Pan Y, et al. Magnetoferritin nanoparticles for targeting and visualizing tumour tissues. Nat Nanotechnol, 2012,7(7):459-64

      (12) Li L, Fang CJ, Ryan JC, et al. Binding and uptake of H-ferritin are mediated by human transferrin receptor-1. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 2010,107(8):3505-10

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      General response 

      Our modeling study integrates recent experimental advances on dendritic physiology, biophysical plasticity rules, and network connectivity motifs into a single model, aiming to clarify their hypothesized inseparable functional roles in neocortical learning. By modelling excitatory plasticity in multi-synaptic connections on dendrites within a network with biologically constrained higher-order structure, we show these aspects are sufficient to account for a wide range of interesting phenomena: First, the calcium-based plasticity rule acted sparsely and specifically, keeping the network stable without requiring homeostatic mechanisms or inhibitory plasticity, as usually employed for models based on STDP rules. Most importantly, simulations of the network initiated in a recurrent-excitation induced synchronous state transitioned to an in vivo-like asynchronous state, and remained there. Second, plastic changes were stimulus-dependent and could be predicted by neurons’ membership in functional assemblies, spatial clustering of synapses on dendrites, and the topology of the network’s connectivity. Several of our predictions could be confirmed by comparison to the MICrONS dataset.

      Our study thus aims to provide a first broad exploration of these phenomena and their interactions in a model, as well as a foundation for future studies that examine specific aspects more deeply. Specific concerns of the reviewers about parameter choices (reviewer 2’s 2nd point - 2.2), claims about stability (2.1 and 3.1), the STDP control (1.5), and the motivation behind network metrics (1.8, 2.3) are addressed in detail below and in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      This paper investigates the dynamics of excitatory synaptic weights under a calcium-based plasticity rule, in long (up to 10 minutes) simulations of a 211,000-neuron biophysically detailed model of a rat cortical network. 

      Strengths 

      (1) A very detailed network model, with a large number of neurons, connections, synapses, etc., and with a huge number of biological considerations implemented in the model. 

      (2) A carefully developed calcium-based plasticity rule, which operates with biologically relevant variables like calcium concentration and NMDA conductances. 

      (3) The study itself is detailed and thorough, covering many aspects of the cellular and network anatomy and properties and investigating their relationships to plasticity. 

      (4) The model remains stable over long periods of simulations, with the plasticity rule maintaining reasonable synaptic weights and not pushing the network to extremes. 

      (5) The variety of insights the authors derive in terms of relationships between the cellular and network properties and dynamics of the synaptic weights are potentially interesting for the field. 

      (6) Sharing the model and the associated methods and tools is a big plus. 

      We thank the reviewer for their comments.

      Weaknesses 

      (1) Conceptually, there seems to be a missed opportunity here in that it is not clear what the network learns to do. The authors present 10 different input patterns, the network does some plasticity, which is then analyzed, but we do not know whether the learning resulted in anything functionally significant. Did the network learn to discriminate the patterns much better than at the beginning, to capture or anticipate the timing of pattern presentation, detect similarities between patterns, etc.? This is important to understand if one wants to assess the significance of synaptic changes due to plasticity. For example, if the network did not learn much new functionally, relative to its initial state, then the observed plasticity could be considered minor and possibly insufficient. In that case, were the network to learn something substantial, one would potentially observe much more extensive plasticity, and the results of the whole study could change, possibly including the stability of the network. While this could be a whole separate study, this issue is of central importance, and it is hard to judge the value of the results when we do not know what the network learned to do, if anything. 

      (1.1) The reviewer raises a very interesting point of discussion. As they remarked, it is very hard to judge what the network learned to do. However, our model was not designed to solve a specific task and even defining precisely what "learning" entails in a primary sensory region is still an open question. As many before us, we hypothesized that one of the roles of the primary somatosensory cortex would be to represent stimuli features and that most of the learning process would happen in an unsupervised manner. This is indeed what we have demonstrated by showing the stimulus-specificity of changes as well as an increase of reliability of assembly sequences between repetitions after plasticity. We have added this to the Discussion in lines 523-525.

      (2) In this study, plasticity occurs only at E-to-E connections but not at others. However, it is well known that inhibitory connections in the cortex exhibit at the very least a substantial short-term plasticity. One would expect that not including these phenomena would have substantial consequences on the results.

      (1.2) This is indeed well known. Please consider that we do have short-term plasticity (called synapse dynamics in the manuscript) at all connections, including inhibitory ones. We thank the reviewer for pointing out this potential confusion in the wording. We have now clarified this  in the Methods in lines: 691-697. Furthermore, we have listed not having long-term plasticity at inhibitory connections in the limitations part of the Discussion in line: 593.

      (3) Lines 134-135: "We calibrated layer-wise spontaneous firing rates and evoked activity to brief VPM inputs matching in vivo data from Reyes-Puerta et al. (2015)."

      (4) Can the authors show these results? It is an important comparison, and so it would be great to see firing rates (ideally, their distributions) for all the cell types and layers vs. experimental data, for the evoked and spontaneous conditions. 

      (1.3) The layer- and cell type specific spontaneous firing rates were indeed hidden in the Methods and on Supplementary Figure S3. We now reference that figure in the Results in line: 136. Furthermore, we have amended Supplementary Figure S3 (panel A2), to show these rates in the evoked state as well.

      (5) That being said, the Reyes-Puerta et al. paper reports firing rates for the barrel cortex, doesn't it? Whereas here, the authors are simulating a non-barrel cortex. Is such a comparison appropriate?

      (1.4) As correctly pointed out by the reviewer, we made the assumption that these rates would generalize to the whole S1 because of the sparsity of experimental data. This assumption is discussed in length in Isbister et al. (2023) and now in the limitations part of the Discussion in lines: 564-568.

      (6) Comparison with STDP on pages 5-7 and Figure 2: if I got this right, the authors applied STDP to already generated spikes, that is, did not run a simulation with STDP. That seems strange. The spikes they use here were generated by the system utilizing their calcium-based plasticity rule. Obviously, the spikes would be different if STDP was utilized instead. The traces of synaptic weights would then also be different. The comparison therefore is not quite appropriate, is it?

      (1.5) Yes, the reviewer's understanding is correct. However, considering the findings of Morrison et al. 2007 [PMID: 17444756], and Zenke et al. 2017 [PMID: 28431369] (cited in the manuscript in lines: 165-166), running STDP in a closed loop simulation would most likely make the network “blow up” because of the positive feedback loop. Thus, we argue that our comparison is more conservative, since by using pre-generated spikes, we opened the loop and avoided positive feedback. This is now further explained in lines: 166-167.

      (7) Section 2.3 and Figure 5: I am not sure this analysis adds much. The main finding is that plasticity occurs more among cells in assemblies than among all cells. But isn't that expected given what was shown in the previous figures? Specifically, the authors showed that for cells that fire more, plasticity is more prominent. Obviously, cells that fire little or not at all won't belong to any assemblies. Therefore, we expect more plasticity in assemblies.

      (1.6) We thank the reviewer for this comment. We added additional panels (G1 and G2) to Figure 5 (and describe their content in lines: 329-337) showing that this is not the case. Firing-rate alone is indeed predictive of plastic changes, but co-firing in assemblies is even more so.

      (8) Section 2.4 and Figure 6: It is not clear that the results truly support the formulation of the section's title ("Synapse clustering contributes to the emergence of cell assemblies, and facilitates plasticity across them") and some of the text in the section. What I can see is that the effect on rho is strong for non-clustered synapses (Figure 6C and Figure S8A). In some cases, it is substantially higher than what is seen for clustered synapses. Furthermore, the wording "synapse clustering contributes to the emergence of cell assemblies" suggests some kind of causal role of clustered synapses in determining which neurons form specific cell assemblies. I do not see how the data presented supports that. Overall, it appears that the story about clustered synapses is quite complicated, with both clustered and non-clustered synapses driving changes in rho across the board. 

      (1.7) We agree with the reviewer, it is “quite complicated” and we also see that the writing could have been better/more precise and supported by the data shown on the Figure. We updated both the section title and a big chunk of the text to take the suggestions into account in lines: 361-373.

      (9) Section 2.5 and Figure 7: Can we be certain that it is the edge participation that is a particularly good predictor of synaptic changes and/or strength, as opposed to something simpler? For example, could it be the overall number of synapses, excitatory synapses, or something along these lines, that the source and/or target neurons receive, that determine the rho dynamics? And then, I do not understand the claim that edge participation allows one to "delineate potentiation from depression". The only related data I can find is in Figure 7A3, about which the authors write "this effect was stronger for potentiation than depression". But I don't see what they mean. For both depression and facilitation, the changes observed are in the range of ~12% of probability values. And even if the effect is stronger, does it mean one can "delineate" potentiation from depression better? What does it mean, to "delineate"? If it is some kind of decoding based on the edge participation, then the authors did not show that.  

      (1.8) We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have included an analysis of the predictive power of indegree of the pre and postsynaptic neuron of a connection on the rho dynamics in Figure 7 (panel B). Please consider, that the rho dynamics are described on the level of connections, while properties like indegree are on the level of nodes. Any procedure transferring a node based property to an edge based property involves choices e.g., should the values be added, multiplied, should one be preferential over the other, or should they be considered independently? As edge-based metrics avoid these arbitrary choices, we would argue that they are - ultimately - the simpler and more natural choice in this context.

      Though we believe that the metric of edge participation is simple, we recognize it is perhaps not common. Thus, we have switched to using a version of it that is perhaps more intuitive for the community at large i.e., as a metric of common innervation.  Moreover, we have changed the name “(k+2) edge participation” to “(k)-edge indegree”, to make it even more accessible. For k=0, this is the number of neurons that commonly innervate the connection, i.e., a common neighbour. And for k=1, this is the number of connections that commonly innervate the connection.  This is equivalent to edge participation from the next to last to the last neuron in a simplex.  Furthermore, in lines: 391-418 we have added additional text and references explaining the intuition of why we think this metric is relevant, as it has been shown to affect correlated activity of pairs of neurons, as well as assembly formation.

      Furthermore, we have clarified the language referring to potentiation and depression in lines: 420-422 and 448.

      (10) "test novel predictions in the MICrONS (2021) dataset, which while pushing the boundaries of big data neuroscience, was so far only analyzed with single cells in focus instead of the network as a whole (Ding et al., 2023; Wang et al., 2023)." That is incorrect. For example, the whole work of Ding et al. analyzes connectivity and its relation to the neuron's functional properties at the network level. 

      (1.9) We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Indeed, the sentence was improperly worded. We have appropriately changed this phrasing in lines: 616-618.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      This paper aims to understand the effects of plasticity in shaping the dynamics and structure of cortical circuits, as well as how that depends on aspects such as network structure and dendritic processing. 

      Strengths: 

      The level of biological detail included is impressive, and the numerical simulations appear to be well executed. Additionally, they have done a commendable job in open-sourcing the model.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments.

      Weaknesses: 

      The main result of this work is that activity in their network model remains stable without the need for a homeostatic mechanism. However, as the authors acknowledge, this has been  demonstrated in previous studies (e.g., Higgins et al. 2014). In those studies, stability was attributed to calcium-based rules combined with calcium concentrations at in vivo levels and background neuronal activity. Since the authors use the same calcium-based rule, it is unclear what new result, if any, is being presented. If the authors are suggesting that the mechanism in their simulations differs, that should be stated clearly, and evidence supporting that claim should be provided. 

      (2.1) We do not see this as the main result of our study, but rather a critical validation step, since our calcium rule, while similar to previous ones, is not exactly the same (see equations (1) and especially (2) in Methods). This has been clarified in the text in lines: 150-151. Note in particular, that one of the main differences is the stochastic synaptic transmission and the role of calcium concentration on the release probability. Furthermore, our model involves multicompartmental neurons instead of point neuron models, which to our knowledge was never tested before with calcium-based plasticity rules at the network level. Moreover, determining the time required for stability to be reached is a necessary step to set up the simulation parameters to test the main hypotheses about rules governing the plastic changes.

      The other findings discussed in the paper are related to a characterization of the dependency of plastic changes on network structure. While this analysis is potentially interesting, it has the following limitations. 

      First, I believe the authors should include an analysis of the generality and specificity of their results. All the findings seem to be derived from a single run of the simulation. How do the results vary with different network initializations, simulation times, or parameter choices? 

      (2.2) All simulations were run with 3 different random seeds (mentioned in the Methods) and now shown in Supplementary Figure S8 for some selected analyses. The maximum duration of our simulations were limited by our hardware constraints.  However, from the long (10 minutes) simulation we concluded that most changes happen within the first minute. This is how we determined 2 minutes as the simulation time for all other experiments. Parameters determining both the spontaneous and evoked network state are discussed in length in Isbister et al. (2023) and while we acknowledge that they are only shown in Supplementary Figure S3, we did not want to lengthen the manuscript with redundant details but rather refer to reader to the manuscript where this is discussed at large. 

      Crucially, we tried slightly different parameters of the plasticity model in the early phases of the research, and while they changed the exact numerical values of our results, the main trends (i.e., stabilization time, assemblies, synapse clustering, and network topology influencing plastic changes) remained unchanged. This is now shown in Supplementary Figure S13 and referenced in the Discussion in lines: 572-575.

      Second, the presentation of the results is difficult to follow. The characterization comes across as a long list of experiments, making it hard to identify a central message or distinguish key findings from minor details. The authors provide little intuition about why certain outcomes arise, and the complexity of the simulation makes it challenging - if not impossible - to determine which model elements are essential for specific results and which mechanisms drive emergent properties. Additionally, the text often lacks crucial details. For instance, the description of k-edge participation should be expanded, and an explanation of what this method quantifies should be included. Overall, I believe the authors should focus on a smaller set of significant results and provide a more in-depth discussion. 

      (2.3) We acknowledge the complexity of these large-scale simulations and the interpretation of their results. We appreciate the reviewer's feedback on the areas that needed more detail. To address this, we have extended the Results section describing k-edge indegree with more background and intuition in lines: 391-418. See also our reply to reviewer 1 (1.8) above. 

      While the manuscript may appear to be "a long list of experiments," it is actually guided by the following logic: We choose a calcium-based rule because it was the natural choice in a multicompartmental model which already included calcium dynamics and NMDA receptors. After setting up the main network state, verifying stability (Figure 2), doing traditional basic analysis (Figure 3), and verifying that the changes are non-random (Figure 4); we elaborated on long-standing ideas about co-firing in cell assemblies (Figure 5) and spatial clustering of synapse on dendrites (Figure 6) interacting with plasticity. Finally as we had access to the network’s non-random connectivity we tried to link the network's topology to the observed plastic changes. This was done with a higher order perspective, given that there was previous evidence for the relevance of these structures on cofiring and correlated activity.

      While we understand the frustration, we would highlight that the study is the first of its kind at this scale and level of biological detail. Our goal was to offer a broad exploration of the factors influencing plasticity and their interactions at this scale. Thus, laying the groundwork for future studies to investigate specific aspects more deeply. 

      The comparison of the model with the MICrONS dataset could be improved. In Figure 7B, the authors should show how the same quantification looks in a network model without plasticity. In Figure 8B, the data aligns with the model before plasticity, so it's unclear how this serves as a verification of the theoretical predictions.

      (2.4) Our only claim is that by being used to working with both functional and structural data we were able to develop a metric (k-edge indegree) that could be utilized to study the non-random, high-order topology of the MICrONS connectivity as well. On Figure 8, spike correlations in MICrONS more or less align with both cases (before vs. after plasticity); the only difference is that spike correlations looked different enough in the model so we thought they are worth showing for both cases. Moreover, as the changes are sparse (Figure 2 and 3) the synapse strength panel of Figure 7(D) looks almost exactly the same before plasticity (see first two panels of Author response image 1). In line with our results, the small and significant changes increase as k-edge indegree increases (last panel of Author response image 1). As the first two panels look almost the same and the third one is shown in a slightly different way (Figure 7C2) we would prefer not to include this in the manuscript, but only in our response.

      Author response image 1.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      Ecker et al. utilized a biologically realistic, large-scale cortical model of the rat's non-barrel somatosensory cortex, incorporating a calcium-dependent plasticity rule to examine how various factors influence synaptic plasticity under in vivo-like conditions. Their analysis characterized the resulting plastic changes and revealed that key factors, including the co-firing of stimulus-evoked neuronal ensembles, the spatial organization of synaptic clusters, and the overall network topology, play an important role in affecting the extent of synaptic plasticity. 

      Strengths: 

      The detailed, large-scale model employed in this study enables the evaluation of diverse factors across various levels that influence the extent of plastic changes. Specifically, it facilitates the assessment of synaptic organization at the subcellular level, network topology at the macroscopic level, and the co-activation of neuronal ensembles at the activity level. Moreover, modeling plasticity under in vivo-like conditions enhances the model's relevance to experiments. 

      We thank the reviewer for their comments.

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) The authors claimed that, under in vivo-like conditions and in the presence of plasticity, firing rates and weight distributions remain stable without additional homeostatic mechanisms during a 10-minute stimulation period. However, the weights do not reach the steady state immediately after the 10-minute stimulation. Therefore, extended simulations are necessary to substantiate the claim. 

      (3.1) We thank the reviewer for this comment, as it gave us the opportunity to clarify in the text our stabilization criteria. Indeed, the dynamical system of weight changes has not reached a zero-change steady state because the changes, while small, are non-zero. However, in a stochastic system with ongoing activity (stimulus- or noise-driven), non-zero changes are expected. Thus, we consider the system to be at steady state when changes become negligible relative to a null model given by a random walk. Our results show that this condition is met around the 2-minute mark, with negligible changes in the subsequent 8 minutes.

      Moreover, for spontaneous activity, we showed that an unstable network exhibiting synchronous activity can be stabilized into an asynchronous regime by the calcium-based plasticity rule within 10 minutes. These results show that the system reaches a stochastic steady state within 10 minutes without requiring homeostatic mechanisms. Our work reveals that incorporating more biological detail (i.e. calcium-based plasticity), reduces the need for additional mechanisms to stabilize network activity (e.g. fast homeostatic mechanisms).

      Interestingly, one might argue that after 10 minutes of stimulation the network might transition to a different weight configuration if the stimuli change or cease. We agree this is an intriguing question, which we added to the Discussion in lines 611-613. However, this scenario concerns continuous learning, not the system’s steady-state dynamics.

      (2) Another major limitation of the paper lies in its lack of mechanistic insights into the observed phenomena (particularly on aspects that are typically impossible to assess in traditional simplified models, like layer-specific and layer-to-layer pathways-specific plasticity changes), as well as the absence of discussions on the potential computational implications of the corresponding observed plastic changes.

      (3.2) Our study integrates recent experimental advances aiming to clarify their hypothesized inseparable functional roles in neocortical learning. In particular, we study three different kinds of mechanistic insight: co-firing in assemblies (Figure 5), synapse clustering on postsynaptic dendrites (Figure 6), and high-order network topology (Figure 7). Furthermore, layer specificity is shown (Figure 3A1, B1, B2, D1) and so is layer-to-layer specificity (Figure 4A2). In addition we also describe synapse clustering on postsynaptic dendrites (Figure 6) which is not available in simplified models either.

      As such, the mechanistic insights provided in our work are integrative in nature and aim to provide a first broad exploration of these phenomena and their interactions-which are rarely considered together in experimental or modelling studies.  This foundation paves the way for future studies that examine specific aspects more deeply in this level of biological detail.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I would suggest the authors explain more explicitly that their study uses plasticity for E-to-E connections and not others. Doing so in multiple places in the paper, but certainly in Methods and early in Results, would be helpful. This is stated in lines 117-119 ("To simulate long-term plasticity, we integrated our recently published calcium-based plasticity model that was used to describe functional long-term potentiation and depression between pairs of pyramidal cells"), but could be highlighted more.

      We have added it to several lines in the Methods: 621, 648, 649.

      (2) "Simulations were always repeated at least three times to assess the consistency of the results." This sounds important. How is this used for the analysis? Do the results reported combine the data from the 3 simulations? How did the authors check the "consistency of the results"? Did they run any statistical tests comparing the results between the 3 simulations or was it more of a visual check?

      The reported results come from a single simulation. Three simulations were run to check that no obvious qualitative differences could be found, such as a change of network regime, association between stimuli and assemblies. No statistical tests can be run with samples of size three. These are now shown in Supplementary Figure S8, and additional clarifying text has been added in Methods line: 722. 

      (3) "We needed 12M core hours to run the simulation presented in this manuscript." The Methods section mentions ~2.4 M core hours for a 10-minute simulation, which may be confusing. It might be helpful to provide a table with all the simulations run for this study.

      We wanted to provide a rough estimate of the runtime, but did not run a deep profiling of all campaigns. The results depend on the actual hardware and configurations used (e.g., temporal resolution of synapse reporting).  We understand the potential source of confusion and have clarified this in the Methods in lines 719-721 (and took it out from the Discussion).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I found the paper somewhat challenging to follow, as there are many small points, making it unclear what the main message is. It sometimes feels like a list of 'we did this and found that.' It might be helpful if the authors focused on a smaller number of key results with more in-depth discussion. For instance, the discussion of network topology on page 9 is intriguing but condensed into a single, dense paragraph that is hard to follow. Clarifying how the random control is generated would also be beneficial.

      See our response to the public review’s third point (2.3).

      (2) Line 245: typo? "Furthermore, the maximal simplex dimension found in the subgraph was two higher than expected by chance.".

      We changed the grammar in line: 249.

      (3) Line 410: typo? "It has been previously shown before that  assemblies have many edges".

      Noted and fixed in line: 463.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The authors claimed that plasticity operates in a sparse and specific manner, with firing rates and weight distributions remaining stable without additional homeostatic mechanisms. However, as shown in Figure 2D inset, the weights do not reach their steady-state values immediately after the 10-minute stimulation. A similar issue is observed in Figure 2G. It would be necessary to show the claim is indeed true as the weights reach the steady states.

      See our response to the public review’s first point (3.1).

      (2) In the model, synapses undergo both short- and long-term plasticity, but the contribution of short-term plasticity to the stated claim is unclear. It would be helpful to demonstrate how the results of Figure 2 are affected when short-term plasticity is excluded.

      STP is needed to achieve the asynchronous in vivo-like firing state in our model (and is intimately linked to the fitting procedure of the plasticity rules - mean-field approximation is not possible due to the important role of synaptic failures in thresholded plasticity outcomes), thus it cannot be excluded. We have added this to the Methods in lines: 691-697.

      (3) It would be helpful to include a supplementary plot, similar to Figure 2F, illustrating the corresponding results for STDP.

      This is not possible as we did not run a different simulation with STDP, only evaluated the changes in connections with an STDP model using spikes from our simulation. We did not incorporate the STDP equations into our detailed network, as there is no canonical or unambiguous way for doing so (e.g., one would need to handle the fact the connections are multi-synaptic). Note however, that considering the findings of Morrison et al. 2007 [PMID: 17444756], and Zenke et al. 2017 [PMID: 28431369] (cited in the manuscript in lines: 165-166), running STDP in a closed loop simulation would most likely make the network “blow up” because of the positive feedback loop.

      (4) It would be helpful to provide mechanistic insights into the current observations and to discuss the potential computational implications of the observed plastic changes. Particularly on aspects that are typically impossible to examine in traditional models, like layer-specific plastic changes presented in Fig. 3A1, B1, B2, D1, and layer-to-layer pathways-specific plastic changes illustrated in Figure 4A2.

      See our response to the public review’s second point (3.2).

      (5) The use of the term 'assembly' in most places of the manuscript may cause confusion. To enhance clarity and foster effective discussions in the field, I would recommend replacing it with 'ensemble,' as suggested in Miehl et al. (2023), 'Formation and computational implications of assemblies in neural circuits' (The Journal of Physiology, 601(15), 3071-3090), which should also be cited.

      We read the mentioned manuscript when it was published (and appreciated it a lot), now reference it, and explain why we did not exactly follow the suggestion in lines: 293-299.

      (6) The title of Figure 5 is not directly supported by the current figure. To strengthen the alignment, it would be helpful to present the results from lines 303-306 in bar plots and incorporate them into Figure 5 to better substantiate the figure title.

      While the mentioned lines compare maximum values to those within the whole dataset, we think those 2*12*12 values are better presented in condensed matrices than bar plots (while the maximum values are still easily grasped from the colorbars). We have added panel G2 to the figure to address a comment by reviewer 1 (1.7), we believe that this further supports the title of the Figure.

      (7) Line 326, cite "Kirchner, J. H., & Gjorgjieva, J. (2021). Emergence of local and global synaptic organization on cortical dendrites. Nature Communications, 12(1), 4005." and "Kirchner, J. H., & Gjorgjieva, J. (2022). Emergence of synaptic organization and computation in dendrites. Neuroforum, 28(1), 21-30."

      Although we were aware of the mentioned manuscripts, we did not include them originally because they are models of a different species. However, we have now cited these in line: 347.

      (8) The contrast results for ensembles 11 and 12 do not appear to support the claims made in lines 339-341. Clarification on this point would be helpful.

      The reviewer is right, we have updated lines: 360-361, to clarify the difference between the two late assemblies.

      (9) For Figure 6C and 6D in Section 2.4, rather than presenting the results for individual ensembles (which could be moved to the supplementary materials), it would be easier if the authors could summarize the results by grouping them into three categories: early, middle, and late ensembles.

      We agree with the reviewer’s suggestion and tried it before, but as the results slightly depend on functional assembly size as well (not only temporal order) averaging them loses information (see different xlims of the panels). Given that the issue is complex we decided to show all the data on the Figure, but we have revised the text now to provide  a more high-level interpretation.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      Comment#1: Ren et al developed a novel computational method to investigate cell evolutionary trajectory for scRNA-seq samples. This method, MGPfact, estimates pseudotime and potential branches in the evolutionary path by explicitly modeling the bifurcations in a Gaussian process. They benchmarked this method using synthetic as well as real-world samples and showed superior performance for some of the tasks in cell trajectory analysis. They further demonstrated the utilities of MGPfact using single-cell RNA-seq samples derived from microglia or T cells and showed that it can accurately identify the differentiation timepoint and uncover biologically relevant gene signatures. Overall I think this is a useful new tool that could deliver novel insights for the large body of scRNA-seq data generated in the public domain. The manuscript is written in a logical way and most parts of the method are well described.

      Thank you for reviewing our manuscript and for your positive feedback on MGPfact. We are pleased that you find it useful for identifying differentiation timepoints and uncovering gene signatures. We will continue to refine MGPfact and explore its applications across diverse datasets. Your insights are invaluable, and we appreciate your support.

      Comment#2: Some parts of the methods are not clear. It should be outlined in detail how pseudo time T is updated in Methods. It is currently unclear either in the description or Algorithm 1.

      Thanks to the reviewers' comments. We've added a description of how pseudotime T is obtained between lines 138 and 147 in the article. In brief, the pseudotime of MGPfact is inferred through Gaussian process regression on the downsampled single-cell transcriptomic data. Specifically, T is treated as a continuous variable representing the progression of cells through the differentiation process. We describe the relationship between pseudotime and expression data using the formula:

      Where f(T) is a Gaussian Process (GP) with covariance matrix S, and Ɛ represents the error term. The Gaussian process is defined as:

      Where is the variance set to 1e-6.

      During inference, we update the pseudotime by maximizing the posterior likelihood. Specifically, the posterior distribution of pseudotime T can be represented as:

      Where is the likelihood function of the observed data Y*, and is the prior distribution of the Gaussian process. This posterior distribution integrates the observed data with model priors, enabling inference of pseudotime and trajectory simultaneously. Due to the high autocorrelation of  in the posterior distribution, we use Adaptive Metropolis within Gibbs (AMWG) sampling (Roberts and Rosenthal, 2009; Tierney, 1994). Other parameters are estimated using the more efficient SLICE sampling technique (Neal, 2003).

      Comment#3: There should be a brief description in the main text of how synthetic data were generated, under what hypothesis, and specifically how bifurcation is embedded in the simulation.

      Thank you for the reviewers' comments. We have added descriptions regarding the synthetic dataset in the methods section. The revised content is from line 487 to 493:

      “The synthetic datasets were generated using four simulators: dyngen (Saelens et al., 2019), dyntoy (Saelens et al., 2019), PROSSTT (Papadopoulos et al., 2019), and Splatter (Zappia et al., 2017), each modeling different trajectory topologies such as linear, branching, and cyclic. Splatter simulates branching events by setting expression states and transition probabilities, dyntoy generates random expression gradients to reflect dynamic changes, and dyngen focuses on complex branching structures within gene regulatory networks.”

      Comment#4: Please explain what the abbreviations mean at their first occurrence.

      We appreciate the reviewers' feedback. We have thoroughly reviewed the entire manuscript and made sure that all abbreviations have had their full forms provided upon their first occurrence.

      Comment#5: In the benchmark analysis (Figures 2/3), it would be helpful to include a few trajectory plots of the real-world data to visualize the results and to evaluate the accuracy.

      We appreciate the reviewer's feedback. To more clearly demonstrate the performance of MGPfact, we selected three representative cases from the dataset for visual comparison. These cases represent different types of trajectory structures: linear, bifurcation, and multifurcation. The revised content is between line 220 and 226.

      As shown in Supplementary Fig. 5, it is evident that MGPfact excels in capturing main developmental paths and identifying key bifurcation points. In the linear trajectory structure, MGPfact accurately predicted the linear structure without bifurcation events, showing high consistency with the ground truth (overall\=0.871). In the bifurcation trajectory structure, MGPfact accurately captured the main bifurcation event (overall\=0.636). In the multifurcation trajectory structure, although MGPfact predicted only one bifurcation point, its overall structure remains close to the ground truth, as evidenced by its high overall score (overall\=0.566). Overall, MGPfact demonstrates adaptability and accuracy in reconstructing various types of trajectory structures.

      Comment#6: It is not clear how this method selects important genes/features at bifurcation. This should be elaborated on in the main text.

      Thanks to the reviewers' comments. To enhance understanding, we've added detailed descriptions of gene selection in the main text and appendix, specifically from lines 150 to 161. In brief, MGPfact employs a Gaussian process mixture model to infer cell fate trajectories and identify independent branching events. We calculate load matrices using formulas 1 and 14 to assess each gene's contribution to the trajectories. Genes with an absolute weight greater than 0.05 are considered predominant in specific branching processes. Subsequently, SCENIC (Aibar et al., 2017; Bravo González-Blas et al., 2023) analysis was conducted to further infer the underlying regulons and annotate the biological processes of these genes.

      Comment#7: It is not clear how survival analysis was performed in Figure 5. Specifically, were critical confounders, such as age, clinical stage, and tumor purity controlled?

      To evaluate the predictive and prognostic impacts of the selected genes, we utilized the Cox multivariate regression model, where the effects of relevant covariates, including age, clinical stage, and tumor purity, were adjusted. We then conducted the Kaplan-Meier survival analysis again to ensure the reliability of the results. The revisions mainly include the following sections:

      (1) We modified the description of adjusting for confounding factors in the survival analysis, from line 637 to 640:

      “To adjust for possible confounding effects, the relevant clinical features including age, sex and tumor stage were used as covariates. The Cox regression model was implemented using R-4.2 package “survival”. And we generated Kaplan-Meier survival curves based on different classifiers to illustrate differences in survival time and report the statistical significance based on Log-rank test.”

      (2) We updated the images in the main text regarding the survival analysis, including Fig. 5a-b, Fig. 6c, and Supplementary Fig. 8e.

      Comment#8: I recommend that the authors perform some sort of 'robustness' analysis for the consensus tree built from the bifurcation Gaussian process. For example, subsample 80% of the cells to see if the bifurcations are similar between each bootstrap.

      We appreciate the reviewers' feedback. We performed a robustness analysis of the consensus tree using 100 training datasets. This involved sampling the original data at different proportions, and then calculating the topological similarity between the consensus trajectory predictions of MGPfact and those without sampling, using the Hamming-Ipsen-Mikhailov (HIM ) metric. A higher score indicates greater robustness. The relevant figure is in Supplementary Fig. 4, and the description is in the main text from line 177 to 182.

      The results indicate that the consensus trajectory predictions based on various sampling proportions of the original data maintain a high topological similarity with the unsampled results (HIM<sub>mean</sub>=0.686). This demonstrates MGPfact’s robustness and generalizability under different data conditions, hence the capability of capturing bifurcative processes in the cells’ trajectory.

      Reviewer #2:

      Comment#1: The authors present MGPfact<sup>XMBD</sup>, a novel model-based manifold-learning framework designed to address the challenges of interpreting complex cellular state spaces from single-cell RNA sequences. To overcome current limitations, MGPfact<sup>XMBD</sup> factorizes complex development trajectories into independent bifurcation processes of gene sets, enabling trajectory inference based on relevant features. As a result, it is expected that the method provides a deeper understanding of the biological processes underlying cellular trajectories and their potential determinants. MGPfact<sup>XMBD</sup> was tested across 239 datasets, and the method demonstrated similar to slightly superior performance in key quality-control metrics to state-of-the-art methods. When applied to case studies, MGPfact<sup>XMBD</sup> successfully identified critical pathways and cell types in microglia development, validating experimentally identified regulons and markers. Additionally, it uncovered evolutionary trajectories of tumor-associated CD8+ T cells, revealing new subtypes with gene expression signatures that predict responses to immune checkpoint inhibitors in independent cohorts. Overall, MGPfact<sup>XMBD</sup> represents a relevant tool in manifold learning for scRNA-seq data, enabling feature selection for specific biological processes and enhancing our understanding of the biological determinants of cell fate.

      Thank you for your thoughtful review of our manuscript. We are thrilled to hear that you find MGPfact<sup>XMBD</sup> beneficial for exploring cellular evolutionary paths in scRNA-seq data. Your insights are invaluable, and we look forward to incorporating them to further enrich our study. Thank you once again for your support and constructive feedback.

      Comment#2: How the methods compare with existing Deep Learning based approaches such as TIGON is a question mark. If a comparison would be possible, it should be conducted; if not, it should be clarified why.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comments. We have added a comparison with the sctour (Li, 2023) and TIGON methods (Sha, 2024).

      It is important to note that the encapsulation and comparison of MGPfact are based on traditional differentiation trajectory construction. Saelens et al. established a systematic evaluation framework that categorizes differentiation trajectory structures into topological subtypes such as linear, bifurcation, multifurcation, graph, and tree, focusing on identifying branching structures in the cell differentiation process (Saelens et al., 2019). The sctour and TIGON methods mentioned by the reviewer are primarily used for estimating RNA velocity, focusing on continuous temporal evolution rather than explicit branching structures, and do not explicitly model branches. Therefore, we considered the predictions of these two methods as linear trajectories and compared them with MGPfact. While scTour explicitly estimates pseudotime, TIGON uses the concept of "growth," which is analogous to pseudotime, so we made the necessary adaptations.

      Author response image 1 show that within this framework, compared to scTour (overall<sub>mean</sub>=0.448) and TIGON (overall<sub>mean</sub>=0.263), MGPfact still maintains a relatively high standard (overall<sub>mean</sub>=0.534). This indicates that MGPfact has a significant advantage in accurately capturing branching structures in cell differentiation, especially in applications where explicit modeling of branches is required.

      Author response image 1.

      Comparison of MGPfact with scTour and TIGON in trajectory inference performance across 239 test datasets. a. Overall scores; b.F1<sub>branches</sub>; c.HIM; d. cor<sub>dist</sub>; e. wcor<sub>features</sub>. All results are color-coded based on the trajectory types, with the black line representing the mean value. The “Overall” assessment is calculated as the geometric mean of all four metrics.

      Comment#3: Missing Methods:

      - The paper lacks a discussion of Deep Learning approaches for bifurcation analysis. e.g. scTour, Tigon.

      - I am missing comments on methods such CellRank, and alternative approaches to delineate a trajectory.

      We thank the reviewer for these comments.

      (1) As mentioned in response to Comments#2, the scTour and TIGON methods are primarily used for estimating RNA velocity, focusing on continuous temporal evolution rather than explicit branching structures, and they do not explicitly model branches. We consider the predictions of these two methods as linear trajectories and compare them with MGPfact. The relevant description and discussion have been addressed in the response.

      (2) We have added a description of RNA velocity estimation methods (scTour, TIGON, CellRank) in the introduction section. The revised content is from line 66 to 71:

      “Moreover, recent studies based on RNA velocity has provided insights into cell state transitions. These methods measure RNA synthesis and degradation rates based on the abundance of spliced and unspliced mRNA, such as CellRank (Lange et al., 2022). Nevertheless, current RNA velocity analyses are still unable to resolve cell-fates with complex branching trajectory. Deep learning methods such as scTour (Li, 2023) and TIGON (Sha, 2024) circumvent some of these limitations, offering continuous state assumptions or requiring prior cell sampling information.”

      Comment#4: Impact of MURP:

      The rationale for using MURP is well-founded, especially for trajectory definition. However, its impact on the final results needs evaluation.

      How does the algorithm compare with a random subselection of cells or the entire cell set?

      Thank you for the comments. We fully agree that MURP is crucial in trajectory prediction. As a downsampling method, MURP is specifically designed to address noise issues in single-cell data by dividing the data into several subsets, thereby maximizing noise reduction while preserving the main structure of biological variation (Ren et al., 2022). In MGPfact, MURP typically reduces the data to fewer than 100 downsampled points, preserving the core biological structure while lowering computational complexity. To assess MURP's impact, we conducted experiments by randomly selecting 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100 cells for trajectory inference. These results were mapped back to the original data using the KNN graph structure for final predictions, which were then compared with the MURP downsampling results. Supplementary results can be found in Supplementary Fig. 3, with additional descriptions in the main text from line 170 to 176.

      The results indicate that trajectory inference using randomly sampled cells has significantly lower prediction accuracy compared to that using MURP. This is particularly evident in branch assignment (F1<sub>branches</sub>) and correlation cor<sub>dist</sub>, where the average levels decrease by 20.5%-64.9%. In contrast, trajectory predictions using MURP for downsampling show an overall score improvement of 5.31%-185%, further highlighting MURP's role in enhancing trajectory inference within MGPfact.

      Comment#5: What is the impact of the number of components selected?

      Thank you for the comments. In essence, MGPfact consists of two main steps: 1) trajectory inference; 2) calculation of factorized scores and identification of high-weight genes. After step 1, MGPfact estimates parameters such as pseudotime T and bifurcation points B.  In step 2, we introduce a rotation matrix to obtain factor scores W<sub>l</sub>  for each trajectory l by rotating Y*.

      For all trajectories,

      where e<sub>l</sub>  is the error term for the -th trajectory. The number of features in Y* must match the dimensions of the rotation matrix R to ensure the factorized score matrix W contains factor scores for  trajectories, achieving effective feature representation and interpretation in the model.

      Additionally, to further illustrate the impact of the number of principal components (PCs) on model performance in step 1, we conducted additional experiments. We used 3 PCs as the default and adjusted the number to evaluate changes from this baseline. As shown in Author response image 2, setting the number of PCs to 1 significantly decreases the overall performance score (overall<sub>mean</sub>=0.363), as well as the wcor<sub>features</sub> and wcor<sub>dist</sub> metrics.  In contrast, increasing the number of PCs does not significantly affect the metrics. It ought to be mentioned that number of components used should be determined by the intrinsic biological characteristics of the cell fate-determination. Our experiment based on a limited number of datasets may not represent more complex scenarios in other cell types.

      Author response image 2.

      Robustness testing of the number of MURP PCA components on 100 training datasets. With the number of principal components (PCs) set to 3 by default; we tested the impact of different number of components (1-10) on the prediction results. In all box plots, the asterisk represents the mean value, while the whiskers extend to the farthest data points within 1.5 times the interquartile range. Significance is denoted as follows: not annotated indicates non-significant; * P < 0.05; ** P < 0.01; *** P < 0.001; two-sided paired Student’s T-tests.

      Comment#6: Please comment on the selection of the kernel functions (rbf and polynomial) and explain why other options were discarded.

      Thank you for the comments. We have added a description regarding the selection of radial basis functions and polynomial kernels in lines 126-130. As the reviewers mentioned, the choice of kernel functions is crucial in the MGPfact analysis pipeline for constructing the covariance matrix of the Gaussian process. We selected the radial basis function (RBF) kernel and the polynomial kernel to balance capturing data complexity and computational efficiency. The RBF kernel is chosen for its ability to effectively model smooth functions and capture local variations in the data, making it well-suited to the continuous and smooth characteristics of biological processes; its hyperparameters offer modeling flexibility. The polynomial kernel is used to capture more complex nonlinear relationships between input features, with its hyperparameters also allowing further customization of the model. In contrast, other complex kernels, such as Matérn or spectral kernels, were omitted due to their interpretability challenges and the risk of overfitting with limited data. However, as suggested by the reviewers, we will consider and test the impact of other kernel functions on the covariance matrix of the Gaussian process and their role in trajectory inference in our subsequent phases of algorithm design.

      Comment#7: What is the impact of the Pseudotime method used initially? This section should be expanded with clear details on the techniques and parameters used in each analysis.

      We are sorry for the confusion. We've added a description of how pseudotime T is obtained between line 138 and 147 in the main text. And the specific hyperparameters involved in the model and their prior settings are detailed in the supplementary information.

      In brief, the pseudotime and related topological parameters of the bifurcative trajectories in MGPfact are inferred by Gaussian process regression from downsampled single-cell transcriptomic data (MURP). Specifically, T is treated as a continuous variable representing the progression of cells through the differentiation process. We describe the relationship between pseudotime and expression data as:

      where f(T) is a Gaussian Process (GP) with covariance matrix S, and ε represents the error term. The Gaussian process is defined as:

      where  is the variance set to 1e-6. During inference, we update the pseudotime by maximizing the posterior liklihood. Specifically, the posterior distribution of pseudotime is obtained by combining the observed data Y* with the prior distribution of the Gaussian process model.

      We use the Markov Chain Monte Carlo method for parameter estimation, particularly employing the adaptive Metropolis-within-Gibbs (AMWG) sampling to handle the high autocorrelation of pseudotime.

      Comment#8: Enhancing Readability: For clarity, provide intuitive descriptions of each evaluation function used in simulated and real data. The novel methodology performs well for some metrics but less so for others. A clear understanding of these measurements is essential.

      To address the concern of readability, we have added descriptions of 5 evaluation metrics in the methodology section (Benchmarking MGPfact to state-of-the-art methods) in line 494 to 515. Additionally, we have included a summary and discussion of these metrics in the conclusion section in line 214-240 to help the readers better understand the significance and impact of these measurements.

      (1) In brief, the Hamming-Ipsen-Mikhailov (HIM) distance measures the similarity between topological structures, combining the normalized Hamming distance and the Ipsen-Mikhailov distance, which focus on edge length differences and degree distribution similarity, respectively. The F1<sub>branches</sub> is used to assess the accuracy of a model's branch assignment via Jaccard similarity between branch pairs. In trajectory inference, cor<sub>dist</sub> quantifies the similarity of inter-cell distances between predicted and true trajectories, evaluating the accuracy of cell ordering. The wcor<sub>features</sub> assesses the similarity of key features through weighted Pearson correlation, capturing biological variation. The Overall score is calculated as the geometric mean of these metrics, providing an assessment of overall performance.

      (2) For MGPfact and the other seven methods included in the comparison, each has its own focus. MGPfact specializes in factorizing complex cell trajectories using Gaussian process mixture models, making it particularly capable of identifying bifurcation events. Therefore, it excels in the accuracy of branch partitioning and similarity of trajectory topology. Among other methods, scShaper (Smolander et al., 2022) and TSCAN(Ji and Ji, 2016) are more suited for generating linear trajectories and excel in linear datasets, accurately predicting pseudotime. The Monocle series, as typical representatives of tree methods, effectively capture complex topologies and are suitable for analyzing cell data with diversified differentiation paths.

      Comment#9: Microglia Analysis:In Figures 3A-C, the genes mentioned in the text for each bifurcation do not always match those shown in the panels. Please confirm this.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have carefully reviewed the article and corrected the error where the genes shown in the figures did not correspond to the descriptions in the article. The specific corrections have been made between line 257 and 264:

      “The first bifurcation determines the differentiated cell fates of PAM and HM, which involves a set of notable marker genes of both cell types, such as Apoe, Selplg (HM), and Gpnmb (PAM). The second bifurcation determines the proliferative status, which is crucial for the development and function of PAM and HM (Guzmán, n.d.; Li et al., 2019). The genes affected by the second bifurcation are associated with cell cycle and proliferation, such as Mki67, Tubb5, Top2a. The third bifurcation influences the development and maturity of microglia, of which the highly weighted genes, such as Tmem119, P2ry12, and Sepp1 are all previously annotated markers for establishment of the fates of microglia (Anderson et al., 2022; Li et al., 2019) (Supplementary Table 4).”

      Comment#10: Regulons:

      - The conclusions rely heavily on regulons. The Methods section describes using SCENIC, GENIE3, RCisTarget, and AUCell, but their relation to bifurcation analysis is unclear.

      - Do you perform trajectory analysis on all MURP-derived cells or within each identified trajectory based on bifurcation? This point needs clarification to make the outcomes comprehensible. The legend of Figure 4 provides some ideas, but further clarity is required.

      Thank you for the comments.

      (1) To clarify, we used the tools like SCENIC to annotate the highly weighted genes (HWG) resulted from the bifurcation analysis for transcription factor regulation activity and possible impacts on biological processes. We have added descriptions to the analysis of our microglial data. The revised content is between line 265 and 266:

      “Moreover, we retrieved highly active regulons from the HWG by MGPfact, of which the significance is quantified by the overall weights of the member genes.”

      (2) We apologize for any confusion caused by our description. It is important to clarify that we performed an overall trajectory analysis on all MURP results, rather than analyzing within each identified trajectory. Specifically, we first used MURP to downsample all preprocessed cells, where each MURP subset represents a group of cells. We then conducted trajectory inference on all MURP subsets and identified bifurcation points. This process generated multiple independent differentiation trajectories, encompassing all MURP subsets. To clearly convey this point, we have added descriptions in the legend of Figure 4. The revised content is between line 276 and 283:

      “Fig. 4. MGPfact reconstructed the developmental trajectory of microglia, recovering known determinants of microglia fate. a-c. The inferred independent bifurcation processes with respect to the unique cell types (color-coded) of microglia development, where phase 0 corresponds to the state before bifurcation; and phases 1 and 2 correspond to the states post-bifurcation. Each colored dot represents a metacell of unique cell type defined by MURP. The most highly weighted regulons in each trajectory were labeled by the corresponding transcription factors (left panels). The HWG of each bifurcation process include a set of highly weighted genes (HWG), of which the expression levels differ significantly among phases 1, 2, and 3 (right panels).”

      Comment#11: CD8+ T Cells: The comparison is made against Monocle2, the method used in the publication, but it would be beneficial to compare it with more recent methods. Otherwise, the added value of MGPfact is unclear.

      Per your request, we have expanded our comparative analysis to include not only Monocle2 but also more recent methods such as Monocle3 (Cao et al., 2019) and scFates Tree (Faure et al., 2023). We used adjusted R-squared values to evaluate each method's ability to explain trajectory variation. The results have been added to Table 2 and Supplementary Table 6. The revised content is between line 318 and 326:

      We assessed the goodness-of-fit (adjusted R-square) of the consensus trajectory derived by MGPfact and three methods (Monocle 2, Monocle 3 and scFates Tree) for the CD8+ T cell subtypes described in the original studies (Guo et al., 2018; Zhang et al., 2018). The data showed that MGPfact significantly improved the explanatory power for most CD8+ T cell subtypes over Monocle 2, which was used in the original studies (P < 0.05, see Table 2 and Supplementary Table 6), except for the CD8-GZMK cells in the CRC dataset. Additionally, MGPfact demonstrated better explanatory power in specific cell types when compared to Monocle 3 and scFates Tree. For instance, in the NSCLC dataset, MGPfact exhibited higher explanatory power for CD8-LEF1 cells (Table 2, R-squared = 0.935), while Monocle 3 and scFates Tree perform better in other cell types.

      Comment#12: Consensus Trajectory: A panel explaining how the consensus trajectory is generated would be helpful. Include both visual and textual explanations tailored to the journal's audience.

      Thank you for the comments. Regarding how the consensus trajectory is constructed, we have illustrated and described this in Figure 1 and the supplementary methods. Taking the reviewers' suggestions into account, we have added more details about the generation process of the consensus trajectory in the methods section to enhance the completeness of the manuscript. The revised content is from line 599 to 606:

      “Following MGPfact decomposition, we obtained multiple independent bifurcative trajectories, each corresponds to a binary tree within the temporal domain. These trajectories were then merged to construct a coherent diffusion tree, representing the consensus trajectory of cells’ fate. The merging process involves initially sorting all trajectories by their bifurcation time. The first (earliest) bifurcative trajectory is chosen as the initial framework, and subsequent trajectories are integrated to the initial framework iteratively by adding the corresponding branches at the bifurcation timepoints. As a result, the trajectories are ultimately merged into a comprehensive binary tree, serving as the consensus trajectory.”

      Comment#13: Discussion:

      - Check for typos, e.g., line 382 "pseudtime.".

      - Avoid considering HVG as the entire feature space.

      - The first three paragraphs are too similar to the Introduction. Consider shortening them to succinctly state the scenario and the implications of your contribution.

      Thank you for pointing out the typos.

      (1) We conducted a comprehensive review of the document to ensure there are no typographical errors.

      (2) We restructured the first three paragraphs of the discussion section to clarify the limitations in the use of current manifold-learning methods and removed any absolute language regarding treating HVGs as the entire feature space. The revised content is from line 419 to 430:

      “Single-cell RNA sequencing (scRNA-seq) provides a direct, quantitative snapshot of a population of cells in certain biological conditions, thereby revealing the actual cell states and functions. Although existing clustering and embedding algorithms can effectively reveal discrete biological states of cells, these methods become less efficient when depicting continuous evolving of cells over the temporal domain. The introduction of manifold learning offers a new dimension for discovery of relevant biological knowledge in cell fate determination, allowing for a better representation of continuous changes in cells, especially in time-dependent processes such as development, differentiation, and clonal evolution. However, current manifold learning methods face major limitations, such as the need for prior information on pseudotime and cell clustering, and lack of explainability, which restricts their applicability. Additionally, many existing trajectory inference methods do not support gene selection, making it difficult to annotate the results to known biological entities, thereby hindering the interpretation of results and subsequent functional studies.”

      Comment#14: Minor Comments:

      (1) Review the paragraph regarding the "current manifold-learning methods are faced with two major challenges." The message needs clarification.

      (2) Increase the quality of the figures.

      (3) Update the numbering of equations from #(.x) to (x).

      We thank the reviewer for these detailed suggestions.

      (1) We have thoroughly revised the discussion section, addressing overly absolute statements. The revised content is from line 426 to 428:

      “However, current manifold learning methods face major limitations, such as the need for prior information on pseudotime and cell clustering, and lack of explainability, which restricts their applicability.”

      (2) We conducted a comprehensive review of the figures in the article to more clearly present our results.

      (3) We have meticulously reviewed the equations in the article to ensure there are no display issues with the indices.

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We are grateful to the reviewers for their constructive comments. The following is our point-to-point responses.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Point 1- Abstract: advanced morning peak « opposite » to pdf/pdfr mutants. To my knowledge, the alteration of PDF/PDFR suppresses the morning peak. I am not sure that an advance of the peak is « opposite » to its inhibition?

      Mutants with disruptions in CNMa or CNMaR display advanced morning activity, indicating an enhanced state. Mutants with disruptions in Pdf or Pdfr exhibit no morning anticipation, suggesting a promoting role of these genes in morning anticipation. Therefore, our revised version is: “Specific elimination of each from clock neurons revealed that loss of the neuropeptide CNMa in two posterior dorsal clock neurons (DN1ps) or its receptor (CNMaR) caused advanced morning activity, indicating a suppressive role of CNMa-CNMaR on morning anticipation, opposite to the promoting role of PDF-PDFR on morning anticipation.” (Line 43-51)

      Point 2- Fig 1K-L: the authors should show the sleep phenotype of the homozygous nAChRbeta2 mutant (if not lethal) for a direct comparison with the FRT/FLP genotype and thus evaluate the efficiency of the system.

      We have incorporated sleep profiles of nAChRbeta2 mutant and W1118 into Fig 1K-L. nAChRbeta2 mutants (red) exhibited a sleep amount comparable to that of pan-neural nAChRbeta2 knockout flies (dark red), as shown below.

      Author response image 1.

      Point 3- Dh31-EGFP-FRT expression patterns look different in figS1 A (or fig1 H) and J. why that?

      We re-examined the original data. Both (with R57C10-GAL4 for Fig. S1A, right, S1J, left) are Dh31EGFP.FRT samples displayed below which demonstrated consistent primary expression subsets. Any observed disparities in region "e" could potentially be attributed to variations during dissection.

      Author response image 2.

      Point 4- The knockdown experiments with the elav-switch (RU486) system (fig S2) do not seem to be as efficient as the HS-FLP system (fig 1H-J). The conclusions on the efficiency should be toned down.

      We have revised accordingly: "Near Complete Disruption of Target Genes by GFPi and Flp-out Based cCCTomics" (Line 130): "Knocking out at the adult stage using either hsFLP driven Flp-out (Golic and Lindquist, 1989) (Fig. 1H-1J) or neural (elav-Switch) driven shRNAGFP (Nicholson et al., 2008; Osterwalder et al., 2001) (Fig. S2A-S2I), also resulted in the elimination of most, though not all, GFP signals." (Line 145-149)

      Point 5- Fig 2H-J: the LD behavioral phenotype of pdfr pan-neuronal cripsr does not seem to correspond to what is described in the literature for the pdfr mutant (han), see hyun et al 2005 (no morning anticipation and advanced evening peak). I understand that the activity index is lower than controls but fig2H shows a large anticipatory activity that seems really unusual, and no advanced evening peak is observed. I think that the authors should show the CRISPR flies and pdfr mutants together, to better compare the phenotypes.

      Thank you for pointing out that the phenotypes of pan-neuronal knockout of PDFR by unmodified Cas9 (Fig. 2H-2I of the previous version) whose morning anticipation still exist (Fig, 2H of the previous manuscript), although the significant decrease of morning anticipation index (Fig 2I of the previous manuscript) and advanced evening activity are not as pronounced as observed in han5304 (Fig. 3C in Hyun et al., 2005).

      First, we have separated the activity plots of Fig. 2H of previous manuscript, as shown below. The activity from ZT18 to ZT24 shows a tendency of decreasing from ZT18 to ZT21 and a tendency of increasing from ZT21 to ZT24. The lowest activity before dawn during ZT18 to ZT24 shows at about ZT21, and the activity at ZT18 is comparable to the activity at ZT24. This is significantly different compared to the two control groups, whose activity tends to increase activity from ZT18 to ZT24 with an activity peak at ZT24.

      The activity from ZT6 to ZT12 increased much faster in Pdfr knockout flies and get to an activity plateau at about ZT11 compared to two control groups with a slower activity increasing from ZT6 to ZT12 with no activity plateau but an activity peak at ZT12.

      Author response image 3.

      Second, we have incorporated the phenotype of Pdfr mutants we previously generated (Pdfr-attpKO Deng et al., 2019) with Pdfr pan-neuronal knockout by Cas9.HC. This mutant lacks all seven transmembrane regions of Pdfr (a). The phenotypes are very similar between Pdfr-attpKO flies and Pdfr pan-neuronal knockout flies. In this experimental repeat, we found that a much more obvious advanced evening activity peak is observed both in pan-neuronal knockout flies and Pdfr-attpKO flies.

      To further analyze the phenotypes of Pdfr pan-neuronal knockout flies by Cas9.HC, we referred to the literature. The activity pattern at ZT18 to ZT24 (activity tends to decrease from ZT18 to ZT21 and tends to increase from ZT21 to ZT24, with the lowest activity before dawn occurring at about ZT21, and activity at ZT18 comparable to activity at ZT24) is also reported in Pdfr knockout flies such as Fig3C and 3H in Hyun et al., 2005, Fig 2B in Lear et al., 2009, Fig 3B in Zhang et al., 2010, Fig .5A in Guo et al., 2014, and Fig 5B in Goda et al., 2019. Additionally, the less pronounced advanced evening activity peak compared to han5304 (Fig. 3C in Hyun et al., 2005) is also reported in Fig. 2B in Lear et al., 2009, Fig. 3B in Zhang et al., 2010, and Fig. 5B in Goda et al., 2019. We consider that this difference is more likely to be caused by environmental conditions or recording strategies (DAM system vs. video tracing).

      Therefore, we revised the text to: “Pan-neuronal knockout of Pdfr resulted in a tendency towards advanced evening activity and weaker morning anticipation compared to control flies (Fig. 2H-2I), which is similar to Pdfr-attpKO flies. These phenotypes were not as pronounced as those reported previously, when han5304 mutants exhibited a more obvious advanced evening peak and no morning anticipation (Hyun et al., 2005)”.

      Author response image 4.

      Point 6-The authors should provide more information about the DD behavior (power is low, but how about the period of rhythmic flies, which is shortened in pdf (renn et al) and pdfr (hyun et al) mutants).

      We have incorporated period data into Fig. 2I. Indeed, conditional knock out of Pdfr by Cas9.HC driven by R57C10-GAL4 shortens the period length, as shown below (previous data), also in Fig. 2I of the revised version.

      In the revised Fig. 2I, we tested 45 Pdfr-attpKO flies during DD condition (3 out of 48 flies died during video tracing in DD condition), and only one fly was rhythmic. In contrast, 9 out of 48 Pdfr pan-neuronal knockout flies were rhythmic.

      Author response image 5.

      Point 7- P15 and fig6. The authors indicate that type II CNMa neurons do not show advanced morning activity as type I do, but Figs 6 I and K seem to show some advance although less important than type I. I am not sure that this supports the claim that type I is the main subset for the control of morning activity. This should be toned down.

      We have re-organized Fig. 6 and revised the summary of these results as: “However, Type II neurons-specific CNMa knockout (CNMa ∩ GMR91F02) showed weaker advanced morning activity without advanced morning peak (Fig. 6N), while Type I neurons-specific CNMa knockout did (Fig. 6J), indicating a possibility that these two type I CNMa neurons constitute the main functional subset regulating the morning anticipation activity of fruit fly”. (Line 400-405)

      Point 8- Figs 6M and N: is power determined from DD data? if yes, how about the period and arrhythmicity? Please also provide the LD activity profiles for the mutants and rescued pdfr genotypes.

      Yes, the power was determined from the DD data. In the new version of the manuscript, we have included the activity plots for the LD phase in supplementary Fig S13, as well as shown below (A, B), and the period and arrhythmicity data for the DD phase in Fig. 6S and Table S7. We have also refined the related description as follows: “Moreover, knocking out Pdfr by GMR51H05, GMR79A11 and CNMa GAL4, which cover type I CNMa neurons, decreased morning anticipation of flies (Fig. 6T, Fig. S13B). However, the decrease in morning anticipation observed in the Pdfr knockout by CNMa-GAL4 was not as pronounced as with the other two drivers. Because the presumptive main subset of functional CNMa is also PDFR-positive, there is a possibility that CNMa secretion is regulated by PDF/PDFR signal”. (Line 413-419)

      Author response image 6.

      Point 9- Fig 7: does CNMaR affect DD behavior? This should be tested.

      We analyzed the CNMaR-/- activity in the dark-dark condition over a span of six days. Results revealed a higher power in CNMaR mutants compared to control flies (Power: 93.5±41.9 (CNMaR-/-, n=48) vs 47.3±31.6 (w1118, n=47); Period: 23.7±0.3 h (CNMaR-/-, n=46) vs 23.7±0.3 h (w1118, n=47); arrhythmic rate 2/48 (CNMaR-/-) vs 0/47 (w1118)). Considering that mutating CNMa had no obvious effect on DD behavior, even if CNMaR affects DD behavior, it cannot be attributed to CNMa signal, we did not further repeat and analyze DD behavior of CNMaR mutant. We believe this raises another question beyond the scope of our current discussion.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Point 1-One major concern is the apparent discrepancies in clock network gene expression using the Flp-Out and split-LexA approaches compared to what is known about the expression of several transmitter and peptide-related genes. For example, it is well established that the 5th-sLNv expresses CHAT (along with a single LNd), yet there appears to be no choline acetyltransferase (ChAT) signal in the 5th-sLNv as assayed by the Split-LexA approach (Fig. 4). This approach also suggests that DH31 is expressed in the s-LNvs, which, as one of the most intensely studied clock neuron are known to express PDF and sNPF, but not DH31. The results also suggest that the sLNvs express ChAT, which they do not. Remarkably PDF is not included in the expression analysis, this peptide is well known to be expressed in only two subgroups of clock neurons, and would therefore be an excellent test case for the expression analysis in Fig. 4. PDF should therefore be added to analysis shown in Fig. 4. Another discrepancy is PdfR, which split LexA suggests is expressed in the Large LNvs but not the small LNvs, the opposite of what has been shown using both reporter expression and physiology. The authors do acknowledge that discrepancies exist between their data and previous work on expression within the clock network (lines 237 and 238). However, the extent of these discrepancies is not made clear and calls into question the accuracy of Flp-Out and Split LexA approaches.

      The concerns mentioned above are:

      (1) sLNvs express PDF and sNPF but not Dh31;

      (2) ChAT presents in 5th-sLNv and one LNd but not in other sLNvs;

      (3) PDFR presents in sLNvs but not l-LNvs.

      (4) PDF is not included in the analysis.

      To verify the accuracy of these intersection analyses, all related to PDF positive neurons (except 5th-sLNv and LNds), we stained PDF and examined the co-localization between PDF-positive LNvs and the respective drivers ChAT-KI-LexA, Pdfr-KI -LexA, Dh31-KI -LexA, and Pdf-KI -LexA.

      First, Dh31-KI-LexA labeled four s-LNvs, as shown below (also in Fig. S9A). Therefore, the results of the intersection analysis of Dh31-KI-LexA with Clk856-GAL4 are correct. The difference in the results compared to previous literature is attributed to Dh31-KI-LexA labels different neurons than the previous driver or antibody.

      Second, no s-LNv was labeled by ChAT-KI -LexA as shown below. We rechecked our intersection data and found that we analyzed 10 brains of ChAT-KI-LexA∩Clk856-GAL4 while only two brains showed sLNvs positively. To enhance the accuracy of intersection analysis results, we marked all positive signal records when positive subsets were found in less than 1/3 of the total analyzed brains (Table S4).

      Third, one l-LNv and at least two s-LNvs were labeled by Pdfr-KI-LexA, as shown below (also in Fig. S9B). Fourth, Pdf-KI-LexA labels all PDF-positive neurons, but the intersection analysis by Pdf-KI-LexA and Clk856-GAL4 only showed scattered signals, as shown below (D, also in Fig. S9C). For these cases, we found some positive signals expected but not observed in our dissection. The possible reason could be the inefficiency of LexAop-FRT-myr::GFP driven by LexA. Therefore, our intersection results must miss some positive signals.

      Author response image 7.

      Finally, we revised the text to (Line 286-317):

      To assess the accuracy of expression profiles using CCT drivers, we compared our dissection results with previous reports. Initially, we confirmed the expression of CCHa1 in two DN1s (Fujiwara et al., 2018), sNFP in four s-LNvs and two LNds(Johard et al., 2009), and Trissin in two LNds (Ma et al., 2021), aligning with previous findings. Additionally, we identified the expression of nAChRα1, nAChRα2, nAChRβ2, GABA-B-R2, CCHa1-R, and Dh31-R in all or subsets of LNvs, consistent with suggestions from studies using ligands or agonists in LNvs (Duhart et al., 2020; Fujiwara et al., 2018; Lelito and Shafer, 2012; Shafer et al., 2008) (Table S4).

      Regarding previously reported Nplp1 in two DN1as (Shafer et al., 2006), we found approximately five DN1s positive for Nplp-KI-LexA, indicating a broader expression than previously reported. A similar pattern emerged in our analysis of Dh31-KI-LexA, where four DN1s, four s-LNvs, and two LNds were identified, contrasting with the two DN1s found in immunocytochemical analysis (Goda et al., 2016). Colocalization analysis of Dh31-KI-LexA and anti-PDF revealed labeling of all PDF-positive s-LNvs but not l-LNvs (Fig S9A), suggesting that the differences may arise from the broader labeling of 3' end knock-in LexA drivers or the amplitude effect of the binary expression system. The low protein levels might go undetected in immunocytochemical analysis. This aligns with transcriptome analysis findings showing Nplp1 positive in DN1as, a cluster of CNMa-positive DN1ps, and a cluster of DN3s (Ma et al., 2021), which is more consistent with our dissection.

      Despite the well-known expression of PDF in LNvs and PDFR in s-LNvs (Renn et al., 1999; Shafer et al., 2008), we did not observe stable positive signals for both in Flp-out intersection experiments, although both Pdf-KI-LexA and Pdfr-KI-LexA label LNvs as expected (Fig S9B-S9C). We also noted fewer positive neurons in certain clock neuron subsets compared to previous reports, such as NPF in three LNds and some LNvs (Erion et al., 2016; He et al., 2013; Hermann et al., 2012; Johard et al., 2009; Lee et al., 2006) and ChAT in four LNds and the 5th s-LNv (Johard et al., 2009; Duhart et al., 2020) (Table S4). We attribute this limitation to the inefficiency of LexAop-FRT-myr::GFP driven by LexA, acknowledging that our intersection results may miss some positive signals.

      Point 2-Related to this, the authors rather inaccurately suggest that the field's understanding of PdfR expression within the clock neuron network is "inconsistent" and "variable" (lines 368-377). This is not accurate. It is true that the first attempts to map PdfR expression with antisera and GAL4s were inaccurate. However, subsequent work by several groups has produced strong convergent evidence that with the exception of the l-LNvs after several days post-eclosion, PdfR is expressed in the Cryptochrome expressing a subset of the clock neuron network. This section of the study should be revised.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. As we have already addressed and revised the related part in the RESULTS section (Line 308-317), we have now removed this part from the DISCUSSION section of the revised version.

      Point 3-One minor issue that would avoid unnecessary confusion by readers familiar with the circadian literature is the say that activity profiles are plotted in the study. The authors have centered their averaged activity profiles on the 12h of darkness. This is the opposite of the practice of the field, and it leads to some initial confusion in the examination of the morning and evening peak data. The authors may wish to avoid this by centering their activity plots on the 12h light phase, which would put the morning peak on the left and the evening peak on the right. This is the way the field is accustomed to examining locomotor activity profiles.

      The centering of averaged activity profiles on the 12 h of darkness is done to highlight the phenotype of advanced morning activity. To prevent any confusion among readers, we have included a sentence in the figure legend explaining the difference in our activity profiles compared to previous literatures: "Activity profiles were centered of the 12 h darkness in all figures with evening activity on the left and morning activity on the right, which is different from general circadian literatures. (Fig. 2H legend)" (Line 957-959))

      Point 4-The authors conclude that the loss of PDF and CNMa have opposite effects on the morning peak of locomotor activity (line 392). But they also acknowledge, briefly, that things are not that simple: loss of CNMa causes a phase advance, but loss of PDF causes a loss or reduction in the anticipatory peak. It is still significant to find a peptide transmitter with the clock neuron network that regulates morning activity, but the authors should revise their conclusion regarding the opposing actions of PDF and CNMa, which is not well supported by the data.

      We have revised the relevant parts.

      ABSTRACT: “Specific elimination of each from clock neurons revealed that loss of the neuropeptide CNMa in two posterior dorsal clock neurons (DN1ps) or its receptor (CNMaR) caused advanced morning activity, indicating a suppressive role of CNMa-CNMaR on morning anticipation, opposite to the promoting role of PDF-PDFR on morning anticipation.” (Line 43-48)

      DISCUSSION: “Furthermore, given that the morning anticipation vanishing phenotype of Pdf or Pdfr mutant indicates a promoting role of PDF-PDFR signal, while the enhanced morning anticipation phenotype of CNMa mutant suggests an inhibiting role of CNMa signal, we consider the two signals to be antagonistic.” (Line 492-495)

      Point 5-The authors should acknowledge, cite, and incorporate the substantive discussion of CNMa peptide and the DN1p neuronal class in Reinhard et al. 2022 (Front Physiol. 13: 886432).

      We have revised the text accordingly and cited this paper: “Type I with two neurons whose branches projecting to the anterior region, as in CNMa∩GMR51H05, CNMa∩Pdfr, and CNMa∩GMR79A11 (Fig. 6E, 5G, 6H), and type II with four neurons branching on the posterior side with few projections to the anterior region, as in CNMa∩GMR91F02 (Fig. 6F). These two types of DN1ps’ subsets were also reported and profound discussed previously (Lamaze et al., 2018; Reinhard et al., 2022)”. (Line 393-397)

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Point 1-Throughout the manuscript figure legends (axis, genotypes, etc) are too small to be appreciated. Fig. 1. Panel A. The labels are very difficult to read.

      We have attempted to enlarge the font as much as possible in the revised version.

      Point 2-Fig. 1. H-J Why is efficiency not mentioned in all the examples?

      In the revised manuscript, the results of Fig 1H-1J are discussed in the revised version (Line 145-147). The reason that we did not calculate the exact efficiency is that the GFP intensity is not stable enough which might change during dissection, mounting or intensity of laser in our experimental process. Therefore, in all results related to GFP signal (Fig. 1B-1J, Fig. S1, Fig. S2, Fig. 2B-2D), we relied on qualitative judgment rather than quantitative judgment, unless the GFP signal was easily quantifiable (such as in cases with limited cells or no GFP signal in the experimental group).

      Point 3-Fig. 1. Panel L, left (light phase): the statistical comparisons are not clearly indicated (the same happens in Figs 3Q and 3R).

      We have now re-arranged Fig. 1L and Fig. 3Q-3R to make the statistical comparisons clear in the new version.

      Point 4-Line 792. Could induced be introduced?

      Yes, we have now corrected this typo.

      Point 5-Fig. S1. Check labels for consistency. GMR57C10 Gal4 driver is most likely R57C10.

      We have now revised the labels (Fig. S1).

      Point 6-Fig. S2. If the experiments were repeated and several brains were observed, the authors should include the efficiency and the number of flies as reported in Fig. S1.

      We have now added the number of flies in Fig. S2 as reported in Fig. S1. As Response to Point 2 mentioned, due to the instability of the GFP signal, we are unable to provide a quantitative efficiency in this context.

      Point 7-Fig S4. The fig legend describes panels I-J which are not shown in the current version of the manuscript.

      We now have deleted them.

      Point 8-Fig 2I. Surprising values for morning anticipation indexes even for controls (0.5 would indicate ¨no anticipation¨; in controls, the expected values would be >>0.5, as most of the activity is concentrated right before the transition. Could the authors explain this unexpected result?

      We have revised the description of the calculation in the methods section (Line 612). After calculating the ratio of the last three hours of activity to the total six hours of activity, the results were further subtracted by 0.5. Therefore, the index should be ≤0.5. When the index is equal to 0, it indicates no morning anticipation.

      Point 9-Fig 2K/L. The authors mention that not all genes are effectively knocked out with their strategy. Could this be accounted for the specific KD strategy, its duration, or the promotor strength? It is surprising no explanation is provided in the text (page 9 line 179).

      In our pursuit of establishing a broadly effective method for gene editing, Fig. 2H-2L and Fig. 2D revealed that previous attempts have fallen short of achieving this objective. The observed inefficiency may be attributed to the intensity of the promoter, resulting in inadequate expression. Alternatively, the insufficient duration of the operation may also contribute to the lack of success. However, in the context of sleep and rhythm research applications, the age of the fruit fly tests is typically fixed, limiting the potential to enhance efficiency by extending the manipulation time. Moreover, increasing the expression level may pose challenges related to cytotoxicity, as reported in previous studies (Port et al., 2014). We refrain from offering specific explanations, as we lack a definitive plan and cannot provide additional robust evidence to support the above speculations. Consequently, in our ongoing efforts, we aim to enhance the efficiency of the tool system while operating within the current constraints.

      Point 10-Page 9, line 179. Can the authors include a brief description of the reason for the different modifications? Only one was referenced.

      We have revised related part in the manuscript (Line 223-231):

      Cas9.M9: We fused a chromatin-modulating peptide (Ding et al., 2019), HMGN1 183 (High mobility group nucleosome binding domain 1), at the N-terminus of Cas9 and HMGB1 184 (High mobility group protein B1) at its C-terminus with GGSGP linker, termed Cas9.M9.

      Cas9.M6: We also obtained a modified Cas9.M6 with HMGN1 at the N-terminus and an undefined peptide (UDP) at the C-terminus. (NOTE:UDP was gained by accident)

      Cas9.M0: We replaced the STARD linker between Cas9 and NLS in Cas9.HC with GGSGP the linker (Zhao et al., 2016), termed Cas9.M0

      Point 11-The authors tested the impact of KO nAChR2 across the different versions of conditional disruption (Fig 1K-L, Fig 2L, Fig 3R). It is surprising they observe a difference in daytime sleep upon knocking down with Cas9.HC (2L) but not with Cas9.M9 (3R) and the reverse is seen for night-time sleep. Could the authors provide an explanation? Efficiency is not the issue at stake, is it?

      In Fig. 2K, the day sleep of flies (R57C10-GAL4/UAS-sgRNAnAChRbeta2; UAS-Cas9/+) was significantly decreased compared to flies (R57C10-GAL4/UAS-sgRNAnAChRbeta2; +/+), but not when compared to flies (R57C10-GAL4/+; UAS-Cas9/+). Our criterion for asserting a difference is that the experimental group must show a significant distinction from both control groups. Therefore, we concluded that there was no significant difference between the experimental group and the control groups in Fig. 2K.

      Point 12-Fig. 4. Which of the two strategies described in A-B was employed to assemble the expression profile of CCT genes in clock neurons shown in C? This information should be part of the fig legend.

      We have now revised the legend as follows: “(A-B) Schematic of intersection strategies used in Clk856 labelled clock neurons dissection, Flp-out strategy (A) and split-LexA strategy (B). The exact strategy used for each gene is annotated in Table S5.”

      Point 13-Similarly, how many brains were analyzed to give rise to the table shown in C?

      We have now revised the legend of Table S4 to address this concern. As indicated in: “The largest N# for each gene in Table S4 is the brain number analyzed for each gene”.

      Point 14-Finally, the sentence ¨The figure is...¨ requires revision.

      We have now revised it: “The exact cell number for each subset is annotated in Table S4”.

      Point 15-Legend to Table S3. The authors have done an incredible job testing many gRNAs for each gene potentially relevant for communication. However, there is very little information to make the most out of it; for instance, the legend does not inform why many of the targeted genes do not appear to have been tested any further. It would be useful to the reader to discern whether despite being the 3 most efficient gRNAs, they were still not effective in targeting the gene of interest, or whether they showed off-targets, or it was simply a matter of testing the educated guesses. This information would be invaluable for the reader.

      First, we designed and generated transgenic UAS-sgRNA fly lines for all these sgRNAs. We randomly selected 14 receptor genes, known for their difficulty in editing based on our experience, to assess the efficiency of our strategy, as depicted in Fig. 3M-3P, Fig. S5, and Fig. S6. We believe these results are representative and indicative of the efficiency of sgRNAs designed using our process and applied with the modified Cas9.

      Secondly, we acknowledge your valid concern. While we selected sgRNAs with no predicted off-target effects through various prediction models (outlined in the Methods under C-cCCTomics sgRNA design), we did not conduct whole-genome sequencing. Consequently, we can only assert that the off-target possibility is relatively low. To address potential misleading effects arising from off-target concerns, it is essential to validate these results through mutants, RNAi, or alternative UAS-sgRNAs targeting the same gene.

      Point 16-Table S4. Some of the data presented derives from observations made in 1-2 brains for a specific cluster; isn´t it too little to base a decision on whether a certain gene is (or not) expressed? It is surprising since the same CCT line was observed/analysed in more brains for other clusters. Can the authors explain the rationale?

      The N# number represents the GFP positive number, and we have revised the legend of Table S4. The largest N# number denotes the total number of brains analyzed for a specific CCT line. It's possible that, due to variations in our dissection or mounting process, some clusters were only observed in 1-2 brains out of the total brains analyzed. To enhance the accuracy of intersection analysis results, we marked all positive signal records when positive subsets were found in less than 1/3 of the total analyzed brains (Table S4).

      Point 17-The paragraph describing this data in the results section needs revising (lines 233-243).

      We have now revised this. (Line 286-317)

      Point 18-While it is customary for authors to attempt to improve the description of the activity patterns by introducing new parameters (i.e. MAPI and EAPI, lines 253-258) it would be interesting to understand the difference between the proposed method and the one already in use (which compares the same parameter, i.e., the slope (defined as ¨the slope of the best-fitting linear regression line over a period of 6 h prior to the transition¨, i.e., Lamaze et al. 2020 and many others). Is there a need to introduce yet another one?

      This approach is necessary. The slope defined by Lamaze et al. utilizes data from only 2 time points, which may not accurately capture the pattern within a period before light on or off. Linear regression is not well-suited for a single fly due to the high variability in activity at each time point, making it challenging to fit the model at the individual level. The parameters we have introduced (MAPI and EAPI) in this paper are concise and can be applied at the individual level, effectively reflecting the morning or evening anticipation characteristics of each fly.

      As an alternative, the activity plot of a certain fly line could be represented by an average of all flies' activity in one experiment. This would make linear regression easier to fit. However, several independent experiments are required for statistical robustness, necessitating the inclusion of hundreds of flies for each strain in a single analysis.

      Point 19-In general, the legends of supplementary figures are a bit too brief. S7 and S8: it is not clear which of the two intersectional strategies were used (it would benefit whoever is interested in replicating the experiments). Legend to Fig S8 should read ¨similar to Fig S7¨.

      We have now revised the legend and included “The exact strategy used for each gene is annotated in Table S5” in the legend.

      Point 20-The legend in Table S6 should clearly state the genotypes examined. What does the marking in bold refer to?

      We have now revised annotation of Table S6. Marking in bold refer to results out of one SD compared to control group.

      Point 21-Line 314. The sentence needs revision.

      We have revised these sentences.

      Point 22-Line 391 (and also in the results section). The authors attempt to describe the CNMa phenotype as the opposite of pdf/pdfr mutant phenotypes. However, no morning anticipation/advanced morning anticipation are not necessarily opposite phenotypes.

      We have revised related description.

      ABSTRACT: “Specific elimination of each from clock neurons revealed that loss of the neuropeptide CNMa in two posterior dorsal clock neurons (DN1ps) or its receptor (CNMaR) caused advanced morning activity, indicating a suppressive role of CNMa-CNMaR on morning anticipation, opposite to the promoting role of PDF-PDFR on morning anticipation.” (Line 43-48)

      DISCUSSION: “Furthermore, given that the morning anticipation vanishing phenotype of Pdf or Pdfr mutant indicates a promoting role of PDF-PDFR signal, while the enhanced morning anticipation phenotype of CNMa mutant suggests an inhibiting role of CNMa signal, we consider the two signals to be antagonistic.” (Line 492-495)

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This paper describes the development and initial validation of an approach-avoidance task and its relationship to anxiety. The task is a two-armed bandit where one choice is 'safer' - has no probability of punishment, delivered as an aversive sound, but also lower probability of reward - and the other choice involves a reward-punishment conflict. The authors fit a computational model of reinforcement learning to this task and found that self-reported state anxiety during the task was related to a greater likelihood of choosing the safe stimulus when the other (conflict) stimulus had a higher likelihood of punishment. Computationally, this was represented by a smaller value for the ratio of reward to punishment sensitivity in people with higher task-induced anxiety. They replicated this finding, but not another finding that this behavior was related to a measure of psychopathology (experiential avoidance), in a second sample. They also tested test-retest reliability in a sub-sample tested twice, one week apart and found that some aspects of task behavior had acceptable levels of reliability. The introduction makes a strong appeal to back-translation and computational validity, but many aspects of the rationale for this task need to be strengthened or better explained. The task design is clever and most methods are solid - it is encouraging to see attempts to validate tasks as they are developed. There are a few methodological questions and interpretation issues, but they do not affect the overall findings. The lack of replicated effects with psychopathology may mean that this task is better suited to assess state anxiety, or to serve as a foundation for additional task development.

      We thank the reviewer for their kind comments and constructive feedback. We agree that the approach taken in this paper appears better suited to state anxiety, and further work is needed to assess/improve its clinical relevance.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) For the introduction, the authors communicate well the appeal of tasks with translational potential, and setting up this translation through computational validity is a strong approach. However, I had some concerns about how the task was motivated in the introduction:

      a) The authors state that current approach-avoidance tasks used in humans do not resemble those used in the non-human literature, but do not provide details on what exactly is missing from these tasks that makes translation difficult.

      Our intention for the section that the reviewer refers to was to briefly convey that historically, approach-avoidance conflict would have been measured either using questionnaires or joystick-based tasks which have no direct non-human counterpart. However, we note that the phrasing was perhaps unfair to recent tasks that were explicitly designed to be translatable across species. Therefore, we have amended the text to the following:

      In humans, on the other hand, approach-avoidance conflict has historically been measured using questionnaires such as the Behavioural Inhibition/Activation Scale (Carver & White, 1994), or cognitive tasks that rely on motor biases, for example by using joysticks to approach/move towards positive stimuli and avoid/move away from negative stimuli, which have no direct non-human counterparts (Guitart-Masip et al., 2012; Kirlic et al., 2017; Mkrtchian et al., 2017; Phaf et al., 2014).

      b) Although back-translation to 'match' human paradigms to non-animal paradigms is useful for research, this isn't the end goal of task development. What really matters is how well these tasks, whether in humans or not, capture psychopathology-relevant behavior. Many animal paradigms were developed and brought into extensive use because they showed sensitivity to pharmacological compounds (e.g., benzodiazepines). The introduction accepts the validity of these paradigms at face value, and doesn't address whether developing human tests of psychopathology based on sensitivity to existing medication classes is the best way to generate new insights about psychopathology.

      We agree that whilst paradigms with translational and computational validity have merits of their own for neuroscientific theory, clinical validity (i.e. how well the paradigm reflects a phenomenon relevant to psychopathology) is key in the context of clinical applications. While our findings of associations between task performance and self-reported (state) anxiety suggest that our approach is a step in the right direction, the lack of associations with clinical measures was disappointing. Although future work is needed to more directly test the sensitivity of the current approach to psychopathology, this may mean that it, and its non-human counterparts, do not measure behaviours relevant to pathological anxiety. Since our primary focus in this paper was on translational and computational validity, we have opted to discuss the author’s suggestion in the ‘Discussion’ section, as follows:

      Further, it is worth noting that many animal paradigms were developed and widely adopted due to their sensitivity to anxiolytic medication (Cryan & Holmes, 2005). Given the lack of associations with clinical measures in our results, it is possible that current translational models of anxiety may not fully capture behaviours that are directly relevant to pathological anxiety. To develop translational paradigms of clinical utility, future research should place a stronger emphasis on assessing their clinical validity in humans.

      c) The authors may want to bring in the literature on the description-experience gap (e.g., PMID: 19836292) when discussing existing decision tasks and their computational dissimilarity to non-human operant conditioning tasks.

      We thank the reviewer for this useful addition to the introduction. We have now added the following to the 'Introduction’ section:

      Moreover, evidence from economic decision-making suggests that explicit offers of probabilistic outcomes can impact decision-making differently compared to when probabilistic contingencies need to be learned from experience (referred to as the ‘description-experience gap’; Hertwig & Erev, 2009); this finding raises potential concerns regarding the use of offer-based tasks in humans as approximations of non-human tasks that do not involve explicit offers.

      d) How does one evaluate how computationally similar human vs. non-human tasks are? What are the criteria for making this judgement? Specific to the current tasks, many animal learning tasks are not learning tasks in the same sense that human learning tasks are, in terms of the number of trials used and if the animals are choosing from a learned set of contingencies versus learning the contingencies during the testing.

      The computational similarity of human and non-human strategies in a given translational task can be tested empirically. This can be done by fitting models to the data and assessing whether similar models explain choices, even if parameter distributions might vary across species due to, for example, physiological differences. Indeed, non-human animals require much more training to perform even uni-dimensional reinforcement learning, but once they are trained, it should be possible to model their responses. In fact, it should even be possible to take training data into account in some cases. For example, the training phase of the Vogel/Geller-Seifter preclinical tests require an animal to learn to emit a certain action (e.g. lever press) simply to obtain some reward. In the next phase, an aversive outcome is introduced as an additional outcome, but one could model both the training and test phase together – the winning model in our studies would be a suitable candidate to model behaviour here. As we also discuss predictive validity in the ‘Discussion’ section, we opted to add the following text there too:

      … computational validity would also need to be assessed directly in non-human animals by fitting models to their behavioural data. This should be possible even in the face of different procedures across species such as number of trials or outcomes used (shock or aversive sound). We are encouraged by our finding that the winning computational model in our study relies on a relatively simple classical reinforcement learning strategy. There exist many studies showing that non-human animals rely on similar strategies during reward and punishment learning (Mobbs et al., 2020; Schultz, 2013); albeit to our knowledge this has never been modelled in non-human animals where rewards and punishment can occur simultaneously.

      2) What do the authors make of the non-linear relationship between probability of punishment and probability of choosing the conflict stimulus (Fig 2d), especially in the high task-induced anxiety participants? Did this effect show up in the replication sample as well?

      Figures 2c-e were created by binning the continuous predictors of outcome probabilities into discrete bins of equal interval. Since punishment probability varied according to Gaussian random walks, it was also distributed with more of its mass in the central region (~ 0.4), and so values at the extreme bins were estimated on fewer data and with greater variance. The non-linear relationships are likely thus an artefact of our task design and plotting procedure. The pattern was also evident in the replication sample, see Author response image 1:

      Author response image 1.

      However, since these effects were estimated as linear effects in the logistic regression models, and to avoid overfitting/interpretations of noise arising from our task design, we now plot logistic curves fitted to the raw data instead.

      3) How correlated were learning rate and sensitivity parameters? The EM algorithm used here can sometimes result in high correlations among these sets of parameters.

      As the reviewer suspects the parameters were strongly correlated, especially across the punishment-specific parameters. The Pearson’s r estimates for the untransformed parameter values were as follows:

      Reward parameters: discovery sample r = -0.39; replication sample r = -0.78

      Punishment parameters: discovery sample r = -0.91; replication sample r = -0.85

      We have included the correlation matrices of the estimated parameters as Supplementary Figure 2 in the ‘Computational modelling’ section of the Supplement.

      We have now also re-fitted the winning model using variational Bayesian inference (VBI) via Stan, and found that the cross-parameter correlations were much lower than when the data were fitted using EM. We also ran a sensitivity analysis assessing whether using VBI changed the main findings of our studies. This showed that the correlation between task-induced anxiety and the reward-punishment sensitivity index was robust to fitting method, as was the mediating effect of reward-punishment sensitivity index on anxiety’s effect on choice. This indicates that overall our key findings are robust to different methods of parameter-fitting.

      We now direct readers to these analyses from the new ‘Sensitivity analyses’ section in the manuscript, as follows:

      As our procedure for estimating model parameters (the expectation-maximisation algorithm, see ‘Methods’) produced high inter-parameter correlations in our data (Supplementary Figure 2), we also re-estimated the parameters using Stan’s variational Bayesian inference algorithm (Stan Development Team, 2023) – this resulted in lower inter-parameter correlations, but our primary computational finding, that the effect of anxiety on choice is mediated by relative sensitivity to reward/punishment was consistent across algorithms (see Supplement section 9.8 for details).

      We have included the relevant analyses comparing EM and VBI in the Supplement, as follows:

      [9.8 Sensitivity analysis: estimating parameters via expectation maximisation and variational Bayesian inference algorithms]

      Given that the expectation maximisation (EM) algorithm produced high inter-parameter correlations, we ran a sensitivity analysis by assessing the robustness of our computational findings to an alternative method of parameter estimation – (mean-field) variational Bayesian inference (VBI) via Stan (Stan Development Team, 2023). Since, unlike EM, the results of VBI are very sensitive to initial values, we fitted the data 10 times with different initial values.

      Inter-parameter correlations

      The VBI produced lower inter-parameter correlations than the EM algorithm (Supplementary Figure 8).

      Sensitivity analysis

      Since multicollinearity in the VBI-estimated parameters was lower than for EM, indicating less trade-off in the estimation, we re-tested our computational findings from the manuscript as part of a sensitivity analysis. We first assessed whether we observed the same correlations between task-induced anxiety and punishment learning, and reward-punishment sensitivity index (Supplementary Figure 9a). Punishment learning rate was not significantly associated with task-induced anxiety in any of the 10 VBI iterations in the discovery sample, although it was in 9/10 in the replication sample. On the other hand, the reward-punishment sensitivity index was significantly associated with task-induced anxiety in 9/10 VBI iterations in the discovery sample and all iterations in the replication sample. This suggests that the correlation of anxiety and sensitivity index is robust to these two fitting approaches.

      We also re-estimated the mediation models, where in the EM-estimated parameters, we found that the reward-punishment sensitivity index mediated the relationship between task-induced anxiety and task choice proportions (Supplementary Figure 9b). Again, we found that the reward-punishment sensitivity index was a significant mediator in 9/10 VBI iterations in the discovery sample and all iterations in the replication sample. Punishment learning rate was also a significant mediator in 9/10 iterations in the replication sample, although it was not in the discovery sample for all iterations, and this was not observed for the EM-estimated parameters.

      Overall, we found that our key results, that anxiety is associated with greater sensitivity to punishment over reward, and this mediates the relationship between anxiety and approach-avoidance behaviour, were robust across both fitting methods.

      As an aside, we were unable to run the model fitting using Markov chain Monte Carlo sampling approaches due to the computational power and time required for a sample of this size (Pike & Robinson, 2022, JAMA Psychiatry).

      4) What is the split-half reliability of the task parameters?

      We thank the reviewer for this query. We have now included a brief section on the (good-to-excellent) split-half reliability of the task in the manuscript:

      We assessed the split-half reliability of the task by correlating the overall proportion of conflict option choices and model parameters from the winning model across the first and second half of trials. For overall choice proportion, reliability was simply calculated via Pearson’s correlations. For the model parameters, we calculated model-derived estimates of Pearson’s r values from the parameter covariance matrix when first- and second-half parameters were estimated within a single model, following a previous approach recently shown to accurately estimate parameter reliability (Waltmann et al., 2022). We interpreted indices of reliability based on conventional values of < 0.40 as poor, 0.4 - 0.6 as fair, 0.6 - 0.75 as good, and > 0.75 as excellent reliability (Fleiss, 1986). Overall choice proportion showed good reliability (discovery sample r = 0.63; replication sample r = 0.63; Supplementary Figure 5). The model parameters showed good-to-excellent reliability (model-derived r values ranging from 0.61 to 0.85 [0.76 to 0.92 after Spearman-Brown correction]; Supplementary Figure 5).

      5) The authors do a good job of avoiding causal language when setting up the cross-sectional mediation analysis, but depart from this in the discussion (line 335). Without longitudinal data, they cannot claim that "mediation analyses revealed a mechanism of how anxiety induces avoidance".

      Thank you for spotting this, we have now amended the text to:

      … mediation analyses suggested a potential mechanism of how anxiety may induce avoidance.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors develop a computational approach-avoidance-conflict (AAC) task, designed to overcome limitations of existing offer based AAC tasks. The task incorporated likelihoods of receiving rewards/ punishments that would be learned by the participants to ensure computational validity and estimated model parameters related to reward/punishment and task induced anxiety. Two independent samples of online participants were tested. In both samples participants who experienced greater task induced anxiety avoided choices associated with greater probability of punishment. Computational modelling revealed that this effect was explained by greater individual sensitivities to punishment relative to rewards.

      Strengths:

      Large internet-based samples, with discovery sample (n = 369), pre-registered replication sample (n = 629) and test-retest sub group (n = 57). Extensive compliance measures (e.g. audio checks) seek to improve adherence.

      There is a great need for RL tasks that model threatening outcomes rather than simply loss of reward. The main model parameters show strong effects and the additional indices with task based anxiety are a useful extension. Associations were broadly replicated across samples. Fair to excellent reliability of model parameters is encouraging and badly needed for behavioral tasks of threat sensitivity.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments and constructive feedback.

      The task seems to have lower approach bias than some other AAC tasks in the literature. Although this was inferred by looking at Fig 2 (it doesn't seem to drop below 46%) and Fig 3d seems to show quite a strong approach bias when using a reward/punishment sensitivity index. It would be good to confirm some overall stats on % of trials approached/avoided overall.

      The range of choice proportions is indeed an interesting statistic that we have now included in the manuscript:

      Across individuals, there was considerable variability in overall choice proportions (discovery sample: mean = 0.52, SD = 0.14, min/max = [0.03, 0.96]; replication sample: mean = 0.52, SD = 0.14, min/max = [0.01, 0.99]).

      Weaknesses:

      The negative reliability of punishment learning rate is concerning as this is an important outcome.

      We agree that this is a concerning finding. As reviewer 3 notes, this may have been due to participants having control over the volume used to play the aversive sounds in the task (see below for our response to this point). Future work with better controlled experimental settings will be needed to determine the reliability of this parameter more accurately.

      This may also have been due to the asymmetric nature of the task, as only one option could produce the punishment. This means that there were fewer trials on which to estimate learning about the occurrence of a punishment. Future work using continuous outcomes, as the reviewer suggests below, whilst keeping the asymmetric relationship between the options, could help in this regard.

      We have included the following comment on this issue in the manuscript:

      Alternatively, as participants self-determined the loudness of the punishments, differences in volume settings across sessions may have impacted the reliability of this parameter (and indeed punishment sensitivity). Further, the asymmetric nature of the task may have impacted our ability to estimate the punishment learning rate, as there were fewer occurrences of the punishment compared to the reward.

      The Kendall's tau values underlying task induced anxiety and safety reference/ various indices are very weak (all < 0.1), as are the mediation effects (all beta < 0.01). This should be highlighted as a limitation, although the interaction with P(punishment|conflict) does explain some of this.

      We now include references to the effect sizes to emphasise this limitation. We also note, as the reviewer suggests, that this may be due to crudeness of overall choice proportion as a measure of approach/avoidance, as it is contaminated with variables such as P(punishment|conflict).

      One potentially important limitation of our findings is the small effect size observed in the correlation between task-induced anxiety and avoidance (Kendall's tau values < 0.1, mediation betas < 0.01). This may be attributed to the simplicity of using overall choice proportion as a measure of approach/avoidance, as the effect of anxiety on choice was also influenced by punishment probability.

      The inclusion of only one level of reward (and punishment) limits the ecological validity of the sensitivity indices.

      We agree that using multi-level outcomes will be an important question for future work and now explicitly note this in the manuscript, as below:

      Using multi-level or continuous outcomes would also improve the ecological validity of the present approach and interpretation of the sensitivity parameters.

      Appraisal and impact:

      Overall this is a very strong paper, describing a novel task that could help move the field of RL forward to take account of threat processing more fully. The large sample size with discovery, replication and test-retest gives confidence in the findings. The task has good ecological validity and associations with task-based anxiety and clinical self-report demonstrate clinical relevance. The authors could give further context but test-retest of the punishment learning parameter is the only real concern. Overall this task provides an exciting new probe of reward/threat that could be used in mechanistic disease models.

      We thank the reviewer again for helping us to improve our analyses and manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Additional context:

      In the introduction "cognitive tasks that bear little semblance to those used in the non-human literature" seems a little unfair. One study that is already cited (Ironside et al, 2020) used a task that was adapted from non-human primates for use in humans. It has almost identical visual stimuli (different levels of simultaneous reward and aversive outcome/punishment) and response selection processes (joystick) between species and some overlapping brain regions were activated across species for conflict and aversiveness. The later point that non-human animals must be trained on the association between action and outcome is well taken from the point of view of computational validity but perhaps not sufficient to justify the previous statement.

      Our intention for this section was to briefly convey that historically, approach-avoidance conflict would have been measured either using questionnaires or joystick-based tasks which have no direct non-human counterpart. However, we agree that this phrasing is unfair to recent studies such as those by Ironside and colleagues. Therefore, we have amended the text to the following:

      In humans, on the other hand, approach-avoidance conflict has historically been measured using questionnaires such as the Behavioural Inhibition/Activation Scale (Carver & White, 1994), or cognitive tasks that rely on motor biases to approach/move towards positive stimuli and avoid/move away from negative stimuli which have no direct non-human counterparts (Guitart-Masip et al., 2012; Kirlic et al., 2017; Mkrtchian et al., 2017; Phaf et al., 2014).

      It would be good to speculate on why task induced anxiety made participants slower to update their estimates of punishment probability.

      Although a meta-analysis of reinforcement learning studies using reward and punishment outcomes suggests a positive association between punishment learning rate and anxiety symptoms (and depressed mood), we paradoxically found the opposite effect. However, previous work has suggested that distinct forms of anxiety associate differently with anxiety (Wise & Dolan, 2020, Nat. Commun.), where somatic anxiety was negatively correlated with punishment learning rate whereas cognitive anxiety showed the opposite effect. We have now added the following to the manuscript, and noted that future work is needed to understand the potentially complex relationship between anxiety and learning from punishments:

      Notably, although a recent computational meta-analysis of reinforcement learning studies showed that symptoms of anxiety and depression are associated with elevated punishment learning rates (Pike & Robinson, 2022), we did not observe this pattern in our data. Indeed, we even found the contrary effect in relation to task-induced anxiety, specifically that anxiety was associated with lower rates of learning from punishment. However, other work has suggested that the direction of this effect can depend on the form of anxiety, where cognitive anxiety may be associated with elevated learning rates, but somatic anxiety may show the opposite pattern (Wise & Dolan, 2020) and this may explain the discrepancy in findings. Additionally, parameter values are highly dependent on task design (Eckstein et al., 2022), and study designs to date may be more optimised in detecting differences in learning rate (Pike & Robinson, 2022) – future work is needed to better understand the potentially complex association between anxiety and punishment learning rate. Lastly, as punishment learning rate was severely unreliable in the test-retest analyses, and the associations between punishment learning rate and state anxiety were not robust to an alternative method of parameter estimation (variational Bayesian inference), the negative correlation observed in our study should be treated with caution.

      Were those with more task-based anxiety more inflexible in general?

      The lack of associations across reward learning rate and task-induced anxiety suggest that this was not a general inflexibility effect. To test the reviewer’s hypothesis more directly, we conducted a sensitivity analysis by examining the model with a general learning rate – this did not support a general inflexibility effect. Please see the new section in the Supplement below:

      [9.10 Sensitivity analysis: anxiety and inflexibility]

      As anxious participants were slower to update their estimates of punishment probability, we determined whether this was due to greater general inflexibility by examining the model including two sensitivity parameters, but one general learning rate (i.e. not split by outcome). The correlation between this general learning rate and task-induced anxiety was not significant in either samples (discovery: tau = -0.02, p = 0.504; replication: tau = -0.01, p = 0.625), suggesting that the effect is specific to punishment.

      Was the 16% versus 20% of the two samples with clinically relevant anxiety symptoms significantly different? What about other demographics in the two samples?

      The difference in proportions were not significantly different (χ2 = 2.33, p = 0.127). The discovery sample included more females and was older on average compared to the replication sample – information which we now report in the manuscript:

      The discovery sample consisted of a significantly greater proportion of female participants than the replication sample (59% vs 52%, χ2 = 4.64, p = 0.031). The average age was significantly different across samples (discovery sample mean = 37.7, SD = 10.3, replication sample mean = 34.3, SD = 10.4; t785.5 = 5.06, p < 0.001). The differences in self-reported psychiatric symptoms across samples did not reach significance (p > 0.086).

      It would be interesting to know how many participants failed the audio attention checks.

      We have now included information about what proportion of participants fail each of the task exclusion criteria in the manuscript:

      Firstly, we excluded participants who missed a response to more than one auditory attention check (see above; 8% in both discovery and replication samples) – as these occurred infrequently and the stimuli used for the checks were played at relatively low volume, we allowed for incorrect responses so long as a response was made. Secondly, we excluded those who responded with the same response key on 20 or more consecutive trials (> 10% of all trials; 4/6% in discovery and replication samples, respectively). Lastly, we excluded those who did not respond on 20 or more trials (1/2% in discovery and replication samples, respectively). Overall, we excluded 51 out of 423 (12%) in the discovery sample, and 98 out of 725 (14%) in the replication sample.

      There doesn't appear to be a model with only learning from punishment (i.e. no reward learning) included in the model comparison. It would be interesting to see how it compared.

      We have fitted the suggested model and found that it is the least parsimonious of the models. Since participants were monetarily incentivised based on the rewards only, this was to be expected. We have now added this ‘punishment learning only’ model and its variant including a lapse term into the model comparison. The two lowest bars on the y-axis in Author response image 2 represent these models.

      Author response image 2.

      Were sex effects examined as these have been commonly found in AAC tasks. How about other covariates such as age?

      We have now tested the effects of sex and age on behaviour and on parameter values. There were indeed some significant effects, albeit with some inconsistencies across the two samples, which for completeness we have included in the manuscript, as follows:

      While sex was significantly associated with choice in the discovery sample (β = 0.16 ± 0.07, p = 0.028) with males being more likely to choose the conflict option, this pattern was not evident in the replication sample (β = 0.08 ± 0.06, p = 0.173), and age was not associated with choice in either sample (p > 0.2).

      Comparing parameters across sexes via Welch’s t-tests revealed significant differences in reward sensitivity (t289 = -2.87, p = 0.004, d = 0.34; lower in females) and consequently reward-punishment sensitivity index (t336 = -2.03, p = 0.043, d = 0.22; lower in females i.e. more avoidance-driven). In the replication sample, we observed the same effect on reward-punishment sensitivity index (t626 = -2.79, p = 0.005, d = 0.22; lower in females). However, the sex difference in reward sensitivity did not replicate (p = 0.441), although we did observe a significant sex difference in punishment sensitivity in the replication sample (t626 = 2.26, p = 0.024, d = 0.18).

      Minor: Still a few placeholders (Supplementary Table X/ Table X) in the methods

      We thank the reviewer for spotting these errors. We have now corrected these references.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This study investigated cognitive mechanisms underlying approach-avoidance behavior using a novel reinforcement learning task and computational modelling. Participants could select a risky "conflict" option (latent, fluctuating probabilities of monetary reward and/or unpleasant sound [punishment]) or a safe option (separate, generally lower probability of reward). Overall, participant choices were skewed towards more rewarded options, but were also repelled by increasing probability of punishment. Individual patterns of behavior were well-captured by a reinforcement learning model that included parameters for reward and punishment sensitivity, and learning rates for reward and punishment. This is a nice replication of existing findings suggesting reward and punishment have opposing effects on behavior through dissociated sensitivity to reward versus punishment.

      Interestingly, avoidance of the conflict option was predicted by self-reported task-induced anxiety. This effect of anxiety was mediated by the difference in modelled sensitivity to reward versus punishment (relative sensitivity). Importantly, when a subset of participants were retested over 1 week later, most behavioral tendencies and model parameters were recapitulated, suggesting the task may capture stable traits relevant to approach-avoidance decision-making.

      We thank the reviewer for their useful analysis of our study. Indeed, it was reassuring to see that performance indices were reliable across time.

      However, interpretation of these findings are severely undermined by the fact that the aversiveness of the auditory punisher was largely determined by participants, with the far-reaching impacts of this not being accounted for in any of the analyses. The manipulation check to confirm participants did not mute their sound is highly commendable, but the thresholding of punisher volume to "loud but comfortable" at the outset of the task leaves substantial scope for variability in the punisher delivered to participants. Indeed, participants' ratings of the unpleasantness of the punishment was moderate and highly variable (M = 31.7 out of 50, SD = 12.8 [distribution unreported]). Despite having this rating, it is not incorporated into analyses. It is possible that the key finding of relationships between task-induced anxiety, reward-punishment sensitivity and avoidance are driven by differences in the punisher experienced; a louder punisher is more unpleasant, driving greater task-induced anxiety, model-derived punishment sensitivity, and avoidance (and vice versa). This issue can also explain the counterintuitive findings from re-tested participants; lower/negatively correlated task-induced anxiety and punishment-related cognitive parameters may have been due to participants adjusting their sound settings to make the task less aversive (retest punisher rating not reported). It can therefore be argued that the task may not actually capture meaningful cognitive/motivational traits and their effects on decision-making, but instead spurious differences in punisher intensity.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important potential limitation of our study. We agree that how participants self-adjusted their sound volume may important consequences for our interpretations of the data. Unfortunately, despite the scalability of online data collection, this highlights one of its major weaknesses in the lack of controllability over experimental parameters. The previous paper from which we obtained our aversive sounds (Seow & Hauser, 2021, Behav Res, doi.org/10.3758/s13428-021-01643-0) contains useful analyses with regards to this discussion. When comparing the unpleasantness of the sounds played at 50% vs 100% volume, the authors indeed found that the lower volumes lead to lower unpleasantness ratings. However, the magnitude of this effect did not appear to be substantial (Fig. 4 from the paper), and even at 50% volume, the scream sounds we used were rated in the top quartile for unpleasantness, on average. This implies that the sounds have sufficient inherent unpleasantness, even when played at half intensity. We find this reassuring, in the sense that any self-imposed volume effects may not be large. Of note, our instructions to participants to adjust the volume to a ‘loud but comfortable’ level was based on the same phrasing used in this study.

      To the reviewers point on how this might affect the reliability of the task, we have included the following in the ‘Discussion’ section:

      Alternatively, as participants self-determined the loudness of the punishments, differences in volume settings across sessions may have impacted the reliability of this parameter (and indeed other measures).

      Please see below for analyses accounting for punishment unpleasantness ratings.

      This undercuts the proposed significance of this task as a translational tool for understanding anxiety and avoidance. More information about ratings of punisher unpleasantness and its relationship to task behavior, anxiety and cognitive parameters would be valuable for interpreting findings. It would also be of interest whether the same results were observed if the aversiveness of the punisher was titrated prior to the task.

      As suggested, we have now included sensitivity analyses using the unpleasantness ratings that show their effect is minimal on our primary inference. We report relevant results below in the ‘Recommendations For The Authors’ section. At the same time, we think it is important to acknowledge that unpleasantness is a combination of both the inherent unpleasantness of the sound and the volume it is presented at, where only the latter is controlled by the participant. Therefore, these analyses are not a perfect indicator of the effect of participant control. For convenience, we reproduce the key findings from this sensitivity analysis here:

      Approach-avoidance hierarchical logistic regression model

      We assessed whether approach and avoidance responses, and their relationships with state anxiety, were impacted by punishment unpleasantness, by including unpleasantness ratings as a covariate into the hierarchical logistic regression model. Whilst unpleasantness was a significant predictor of choice (positively predicting safe option choices), all significant predictors and interaction effects from the model without unpleasantness survived (Supplementary Figure 11). Critically, this suggests that punishment unpleasantness does not account for all of the variance in the relationship between anxiety and avoidance.

      Mediation model

      When unpleasantness ratings were included in the mediation models, the mediating effect of the reward-punishment sensitivity index did not survive (discovery sample: standardised β = 0.003 ± 0.003, p = 0.416; replication sample: standardised β = 0.004 ± 0.003, p = 0.100; Supplementary Figure 12). Pooling the samples resulted in an effect that narrowly missed the significance threshold (standardised β = 0.004 ± 0.002, p = 0.068).

      More generally, whether or not to titrate the punishments (and indeed the rewards) is an interesting experimental decision, which we think should be guided by the research question. In our case, we were interested in individual differences in reward/punishment learning and sensitivity and their relation to anxiety, so variation in how aversive the sounds affected approach-avoidance decisions was an important aspect of our design. In studies where the aim is to understand more general processes of how humans act under approach-avoidance conflict, it may be better to tightly control the salience of reinforcers.

      Ultimately, the best test of the causal role of anxiety on avoidance, and against the hypothesis that our results were driven by spurious volume control effects, would be to run within-subjects anxiety interventions, where these volume effects are naturally accounted for. This will be an important direction for future studies using similar measures. We have added a paragraph in the ‘Discussion’ section on this point:

      Relatedly, participants had some control over the intensity at which the punishments were presented, which may have driven our findings relating to anxiety and putative mechanisms of anxiety-related avoidance. Sensitivity analyses showed that our finding that anxiety is positively associated with avoidance in the task was robust to individual differences in self-reported punishment unpleasantness, whilst the mediation effects were not. Future work imposing better control over the stimuli presented, and/or using within-subjects designs will be needed to validate the role of reward/punishment sensitivities in anxiety-related avoidance.

      Although the procedure and findings reported here remain valuable to the field, claims of novelty including its translational potential are perhaps overstated. This study complements and sits within a much broader literature that investigates roles for aversion and cognitive traits in approach-avoidance decisions. This includes numerous studies that apply reinforcement learning models to behavior in two-choice tasks with latent probabilities of reward and punishment (e.g., see doi: 10.1001/jamapsychiatry.2022.0051), as well as other translationally-relevant paradigms (e.g., doi: 10.3389/fpsyg.2014.00203, 10.7554/eLife.69594, etc).

      We agree with the reviewer that our approach builds on previous work in reinforcement learning, approach-avoidance conflict and translational measures of anxiety. Whilst there are by now many studies using two-choice learning tasks with latent reward and punishment probabilities, our main, and which we refer to as ‘novel’, aim was to bring these fields together in such a way so as to model anxiety-related behaviour.

      We note that we do not make strong statements about whether these effects speak to traits per se, and as Reviewer 1 notes, the evidence from our study suggests that the present measure may be better suited to assessing state anxiety. While computational model parameters can and are certainly often interpreted as constituting stable individual traits, a more simple interpretation of our findings may be that state anxiety is associated with a momentary preference for punishment avoidance over reward pursuit. This can still be informative for the study of anxiety, especially given the notion of a continuous relationship between adaptive/state anxiety and maladaptive/persistent anxiety.

      Having said that, we agree with the underlying premise of the reviewer’s point that how the measure relates to trait-level avoidance/inhibition measures will be an interesting question for future work. We appreciate the importance of using tasks such as ours and those highlighted by the reviewer as trait-level measures, especially in computational psychiatry. We have now included a discussion on the potential roles of cognitive/motivational traits, in line with the reviewer’s recommendation – briefly, we have included the suggested references by the reviewer, discussed the measure’s potential relevance to cognitive/motivational traits, and direct interested readers to the broader literature. Please see below for details.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As stated in the public review, punisher unpleasantness and its relationship to key findings (including for retest) should be reported and discussed.

      We signpost readers to our new analyses, incorporating unpleasantness ratings into the statistical models, from the main manuscript as follows:

      Since participants self-determined the volume of the punishments in the task, and therefore (at least in part) their aversiveness, we conducted sensitivity analyses by accounting for self-reported unpleasantness ratings of the punishment (see the Supplement). Our finding that anxiety impacts approach-avoidance behaviour was robust to this sensitivity analysis (p < 0.001), however the mediating effect of the reward-sensitivity sensitivity index was not (p > 0.1; see Supplement section 9.9 for details).

      We reproduce the relevant section from the Supplement below. Overall, we found that the effect of anxiety on choices (via its interaction with punishment probability) remained significant after accounting for unpleasantness, however the mediating effect of reward-punishment sensitivity was no longer significant when unpleasantness ratings were included in the model. As noted above, unpleasantness ratings are not a perfect measure of self-imposed sound volume, and indeed punishment sensitivity is essentially a computationally-derived measure of unpleasantness, which makes it difficult to interpret the mediation model which contains both of these measures. However, since we found that anxiety affected choice over and above and effects of self-imposed sound volume (using unpleasantness ratings as a proxy measure), we argue that the task still holds value as a model of anxiety-related avoidance.

      [Supplement Section 9.9: Sensitivity analyses of punishment unpleasantness]

      Distribution of unpleasantness

      The punishments were rated as unpleasant by the participants, on average (discovery sample: mean rating = 31.1 [scored between 0 and 50], SD = 13.1; replication sample: mean rating = 32.1, SD = 12.7; Supplementary Figure 10).

      Approach-avoidance hierarchical logistic regression model

      We assessed whether approach and avoidance responses, and their relationships with state anxiety, were impacted by punishment unpleasantness, by including unpleasantness ratings as a covariate into the hierarchical logistic regression model. Whilst unpleasantness was a significant predictor of choice (positively predicting safe option choices), all significant predictors and interaction effects from the model without unpleasantness ratings survived (Supplementary Figure 11). Critically, this suggests that punishment unpleasantness does not account for all of the variance in the relationship between anxiety and avoidance.

      Mediation model

      When unpleasantness ratings were included in the mediation models, the mediating effect of the reward-punishment sensitivity index did not survive (discovery sample: standardised β = 0.003 ± 0.003, p = 0.416; replication sample: standardised β = 0.004 ± 0.003, p = 0.100; Supplementary Figure 12). Pooling the samples resulted in an effect that narrowly missed the significance threshold (standardised β = 0.004 ± 0.002, p = 0.068).

      Test-retest reliability of unpleasantness

      The test-retest reliability of unpleasantness ratings was excellent (ICC(3,1) = 0.75), although participants gave significantly lower ratings in the second session (t56 = 2.7, p = 0.008, d = 0.37; mean difference of 3.12, SD = 8.63).

      Reliability of other measures with/out unpleasantness

      To assess the effect of accounting for unpleasantness ratings on reliability estimates of task performance, we extracted variance components from linear mixed models, following a standard approach (Nakagawa et al., 2017) – note that this was not the method used to estimate reliability values in the main analyses, but we used this specific approach to compare the reliability values with and without the covariate of unpleasantness ratings. The results indicated that unpleasantness ratings did not have a material effect on reliability (Supplementary Figure 14).

      We discuss the findings of these sensitivity analyses in the ‘Discussion’ section, as follows:

      Relatedly, participants had some control over the intensity at which the punishments were presented, which may have driven our findings relating to anxiety and putative mechanisms of anxiety-related avoidance. Sensitivity analyses showed that our finding that anxiety is positively associated with avoidance in the task was robust to individual differences in self-reported punishment unpleasantness, whilst the mediation effects were not. Future work imposing better control over the stimuli presented, and/or using within-subjects designs will be needed to validate the role of reward/punishment sensitivities in anxiety-related avoidance.

      Introduction and discussion should spend more time relating the task and current findings to existing procedures and findings examining individual differences in avoidance and cognitive/motivational correlates.

      We thank the reviewer for the opportunity to expand on the literature. Whilst there are numerous behavioural paradigms in both the human and non-human literature that involve learning about rewards and punishments, our starting point for the introduction was the state-of-the-art in translational models of approach-avoidance conflict models of anxiety. Therefore, for the sake of brevity and logical flow of our introduction, we have opted to bring in the discussion on other procedures primarily in the ‘Discussion’ section of the manuscript.

      We have now included the reviewer’s suggested citations from their ‘Public Review’ as follows:

      Since we developed our task with the primary focus on translational validity, its design diverges from other reinforcement learning tasks that involve reward and punishment outcomes (Pike & Robinson, 2022). One important difference is that we used distinct reinforcers as our reward and punishment outcomes, compared to many studies which use monetary outcomes for both (e.g. earning and losing £1 constitute the reward and punishment, respectively; Aylward et al., 2019; Jean-Richard-Dit-Bressel et al., 2021; Pizzagalli et al., 2005; Sharp et al., 2022). Other tasks have been used that induce a conflict between value and motor biases, relying on prepotent biases to approach/move towards rewards and withdraw from punishments, which makes it difficult to approach punishments and withdraw from rewards (Guitart-Masip et al., 2012; Mkrtchian et al., 2017). However, since translational operant conflict tasks typically induce a conflict between different types of outcome (e.g. food and shocks/sugar and quinine pellets; Oberrauch et al., 2019; van den Bos et al., 2014), we felt it was important to implement this feature. One study used monetary rewards and shock-based punishments, but also included four options for participants to choose from on each trial, with rewards and punishments associated with all four options (Seymour et al., 2012). This effectively requires participants to maintain eight probability estimates (i.e. reward and punishment at each of the four options) to solve the task, which may be too difficult for non-human animals to learn efficiently.

      We have also included a discussion on the measure’s potential relevance to cognitive/motivational traits as follows:

      Finally, whilst there is a broad literature on the roles of behavioural inhibition and avoidance tendency traits on decision-making and behaviour (Carver & White, 1994; Corr, 2004; Gray, 1982), we did not replicate the correlation of experiential avoidance and avoidance responses or the reward-punishment sensitivity index. Since there were also no significant correlations across task performance indices and clinical symptom measures, our findings suggest that the measure may be more sensitive to behaviours relating to state anxiety, rather more stable traits. Nevertheless, how performance in the present task relates to other traits such as behavioural approach/inhibition tendencies (Carver & White, 1994), as has been found in previous studies on reward/punishment learning (Sharp et al., 2022; Wise & Dolan, 2020) and approach-avoidance conflict (Aupperle et al., 2011), will be an important question for future work.

      We also now direct readers to a recent, comprehensive review on applying computational methods to approach-avoidance behaviours in the ‘Introduction’ section:

      A fundamental premise of this approach is that the brain acts as an information-processing organ that performs computations responsible for observable behaviours, including approach and avoidance (for a recent review on the application of computational methods to approach-avoidance conflict, see Letkiewicz et al., 2023).

      I am curious why participants were excluded if they made the same response on 20+ consecutive trials. How does this represent a cut-off between valid versus invalid behavioral profiles?

      We apologise for the lack of clarity on this point in our original submission – this exclusion criterion was specifically if participants used the same response key (e.g. the left arrow button) on 20 or more consecutive trials, indicating inattention. Since the left-right positions of the stimuli were randomised across trials, this did not exclude participants who repeatedly chose the same option frequently. However, as we show in the Supplement, this, along with the other exclusion criteria, did not affect our main findings.

      We have now clarified this as follows:

      … we excluded those who responded with the same response key on 20 or more consecutive trials (> 10% of all trials; 4%/6% in discovery and replication samples, respectively) – note that as the options randomly switched sides on the screen across trials, this did not exclude participants who frequently and consecutively chose a certain option.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work by Grogan and colleagues aimed to translate animal studies showing that acetylcholine plays a role in motivation by modulating the effects of dopamine on motivation. They tested this hypothesis with a placebo-controlled pharmacological study administering a muscarinic antagonist (trihexyphenidyl; THP) to a sample of 20 adult men performing an incentivized saccade task while undergoing electroencephalography (EEG). They found that reward increased vigor and reduced reaction times (RTs) and, importantly, these reward effects were attenuated by trihexyphenidyl. High incentives increased preparatory EEG activity (contingent negative variation), and though THP also increased preparatory activity, it also reduced this reward effect on RTs.

      Strengths:

      The researchers address a timely and potentially clinically relevant question with a within-subject pharmacological intervention and a strong task design. The results highlight the importance of the interplay between dopamine and other neurotransmitter systems in reward sensitivity and even though no Parkinson's patients were included in this study, the results could have consequences for patients with motivational deficits and apathy if validated in the future.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness of the study is the small sample size (N=20) that unfortunately is limited to men only. Generalizability and replicability of the conclusions remain to be assessed in future research with a larger and more diverse sample size and potentially a clinically relevant population. The EEG results do not shape a concrete mechanism of action of the drug on reward sensitivity.

      We thank the reviewer for their time and their assessment of this manuscript, and we appreciate their helpful comments on the previous version.

      We agree that the sample size being smaller than planned due to the pandemic restrictions is a weakness for this study, and hope that future studies into cholinergic effects on motivation in humans will use larger sample sizes. They should also ensure women are not excluded from sample populations, which will become even more important if the research progresses to clinical populations.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Grogan et al examine a role for muscarinic receptor activation in action vigor in a saccadic system. This work is motivated by a strong literature linking dopamine to vigor, and some animal studies suggesting that ACH might modulate these effects, and is important because patient populations with symptoms related to reduced vigor are prescribed muscarinic antagonists. The authors use a motivated saccade task with distractors to measure the speed and vigor of actions in humans under placebo or muscarinic antagonism. They show that muscarinic antagonism blunts the motivational effects of reward on both saccade velocity and RT, and also modulates the distractibility of participants, in particular by increasing the repulsion of saccades away from distractors. They show that preparatory EEG signals reflect both motivation and drug condition, and make a case that these EEG signals mediate the effects of the drug on behavior.

      Strengths:

      This manuscript addresses an interesting and timely question and does so using an impressive within subject pharmacological design and a task well designed to measure constructs of interest. The authors show clear causal evidence that ACH affects different metrics of saccade generation related to effort expenditure and their modulation by incentive manipulations. The authors link these behavioral effects to motor preparatory signatures, indexed with EEG, that relate to behavioral measures of interest and in at least one case statistically mediate the behavioral effects of ACH antagonism.

      Weaknesses:

      A primary weakness of this paper is the sample size - since only 20 participants completed the study. The authors address the sample size in several places and I completely understand the reason for the reduced sample size (study halt due to covid). Nonetheless, it is worth stating explicitly that this sample size is relatively small for the effect sizes typically observed in such studies highlighting the need for future confirmatory studies.

      We thank the reviewer for their time and their assessment of this manuscript, and we appreciate their helpful comments on the previous version.

      We agree that the small sample size is a weakness of the study, and hope that future work into cholinergic modulation of motivation can involve larger samples to replicate and extend this work.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Thank you for addressing my comments and clarifying the analysis sections. Women can be included in such studies by performing a pregnancy test before each test session, but I understand how this could have added to the pandemic limitations. Best of luck with your future work!

      Thank you for your time in reviewing this paper, and your helpful comments.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors have done a great job at addressing my concerns and I think that the manuscript is now very solid. That said, I have one minor concern.

      Thank you for your time in reviewing this paper, and your helpful comments.

      For descriptions of mass univariate analyses and cluster correction, I am still a bit confused on exactly what terms were in the regression. In one place, the authors state:

      On each iteration we shuffled the voltages across trials within each condition and person, and regressed it against the behavioural variable, with the model 'variable ~1 + voltage + incentive*distractorPresent*THP + (1 | participant)'.

      I take this to mean that the regression model includes a voltage regressor and a three-way interaction term, along with participant level intercept terms.

      However, elsewhere, the authors state:

      "We regressed each electrode and time-point against the three behavioural variables separately, while controlling for effects of incentive, distractor, THP, the interactions of those factors, and a random effect of participant."

      I take this to mean that the regression model included regressors for incentive, distractorPresent, THP, along with their 2 and 3 way interactions. I think that this seems like the more reasonable model - but I just want to 1) verify that this is what the authors did and 2) encourage them to articulate this more clearly and consistently throughout.

      We apologise for the lack of clarity about the whole-brain regression analyses.

      We used Wilkinson notation for this formula, where ‘A*B’ denotes ‘A + B + A:B’, so all main effects and lower-order interactions terms were included in the regression, as your second interpretation says. The model written out in full would be:

      'variable ~1 + voltage + incentive + distractorPresent + THP + incentive*distractorPresent + incentive*THP + distractorPresent*THP +  incentive*distractorPresent*THP + (1 | participant)'    

      We will clarify this in the Version of Record.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors used a motivated saccade task with distractors to measure response vigor and reaction time (RT) in healthy human males under placebo or muscarinic antagonism. They also simultaneously recorded neural activity using EEG with event-related potential (ERP) focused analyses. This study provides evidence that the muscarinic antagonist Trihexyphenidyl (THP) modulates the motivational effects of reward on both saccade velocity and RT, and also increases the distractibility of participants. The study also examined the correlational relationships between reaction time and vigor and manipulations (THP, incentives) with components of the EEG-derived ERPs. While an interesting correlation structure emerged from the analyses relating the ERP biomarkers to behavior, it is unclear how these potentially epiphenomenal biomarkers relate to relevant underlying neurophysiology.

      Strengths:

      This study is a logical translational extension from preclinical findings of cholinergic modulation of motivation and vigor and the CNV biomarker to a normative human population, utilizing a placebo-controlled, double-blind approach.

      While framed in the context of Parkinson's disease where cholinergic medications can be used, the authors do a good job in the discussion describing the limitations in generalizing their findings obtained in a normative and non-age-matched cohort to an aged PD patient population.

      The exploratory analyses suggest alternative brain targets and/or ERP components that relate to the behavior and manipulations tested. These will need to be further validated in an adequately powered study. Once validated, the most relevant biomarkers could be assessed in a more clinically relevant population.

      Weaknesses:

      The relatively weak correlations between the main experimental outcomes provide unclear insight into the neural mechanisms by which the manipulations lead to behavioral manifestations outside the context of the ERP. It would have been interesting to evaluate how other quantifications of the EEG signal through time-frequency analyses relate to the behavioral outcomes and manipulations.

      The ERP correlations to relevant behavioral outcomes were not consistent across manipulations demonstrating they are not reliable biomarkers to behavior but do suggest that multiple underlying mechanisms can give rise to the same changes in the ERP-based biomarkers and lead to different behavioral outcomes.

      We thank the reviewer for their review and their comments.

      We agree that these ERPs may not be reliable biomarkers yet, given the many-to-one mapping we observed where incentives and THP antagonism both affected the CNV in different ways, and hope that future studies will help clarify the use and limitations of the CNV as a potential biomarker of invigoration.

      Our original hypothesis was specifically about the CNV as an index of preparatory behaviour, but we plan to look at potential changes to frequency characteristics in future work. We have included this in the discussion of future investigations. (page 16, line 428):

      “Future investigations of other aspects of the EEG signals may illuminate us. Such studies could also investigate other potential signals that may be more sensitive to invigoration and/or muscarinic antagonism, including frequency-band power and phase-coherence, or measures of variability in brain signals such as entropy, which may give greater insight into processes affected by these factors.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work by Grogan and colleagues aimed to translate animal studies showing that acetylcholine plays a role in motivation by modulating the effects of dopamine on motivation. They tested this hypothesis with a placebo-controlled pharmacological study administering a muscarinic antagonist (trihexyphenidyl; THP) to a sample of 20 adult men performing an incentivized saccade task while undergoing electroengephalography (EEG). They found that reward increased vigor and reduced reaction times (RTs) and, importantly, these reward effects were attenuated by trihexyphenidyl. High incentives increased preparatory EEG activity (contingent negative variation), and though THP also increased preparatory activity, it also reduced this reward effect on RTs.

      Strengths:

      The researchers address a timely and potentially clinically relevant question with a within-subject pharmacological intervention and a strong task design. The results highlight the importance of the interplay between dopamine and other neurotransmitter systems in reward sensitivity and even though no Parkinson's patients were included in this study, the results could have consequences for patients with motivational deficits and apathy if validated in the future.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness of the study is the small sample size (N=20) that unfortunately is limited to men only. The generalizability and replicability of the conclusions remain to be assessed in future research with a larger and more diverse sample size and potentially a clinically relevant population. The EEG results do not shape a concrete mechanism of action of the drug on reward sensitivity.

      We thank the reviewer for their review, and their comments.

      We agree that our study was underpowered, not reaching our target of 27 participants due to pandemic restrictions halting our recruitment, and hope that future studies into muscarinic antagonism in motivation will have larger sample sizes, and include male and female participants across a range of ages, to assess generalisability.

      We only included men to prevent the chance of administering the drug to someone pregnant. Trihexyphenidyl is categorized by the FDA as a Pregnancy Category Class C drug, and the ‘Summary of Product Characteristics’ states: “There is inadequate information regarding the use of trihexyphenidyl in pregnancy. Animal studies are insufficient with regard to effects on pregnancy, embryonal/foetal development, parturition and postnatal development. The potential risk for humans is unknown. Trihexyphenidyl should not be used during pregnancy unless clearly necessary.”

      While the drug can be prescribed where benefits may outweigh this risk, as there were no benefits to participants in this study, we only recruited men to keep the risk at zero.

      We have updated the Methods/Drugs section to explain this (page 17, line 494):

      “The risks of Trihexyphenidyl in pregnancy are unknown, but the Summary Product of Characteristics states that it “should not be used during pregnancy unless clearly necessary”. As this was a basic research study with no immediate clinical applications, there was no justification for any risk of administering the drug during pregnancy, so we only recruited male participants to keep this risk at zero.”

      And we reference to this in the Methods/Participants section (page 18, line 501):

      “We recruited 27 male participants (see Drugs section above),…”

      We agree that future work is needed to replicate this in different samples, and that this work cannot tell us the mechanism by which the drug is dampening invigoration, but we think that showing these effects do occur and can be linked to anticipatory/preparatory activity rather than overall reward sensitivity is a useful finding.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Grogan et al examine a role for muscarinic receptor activation in action vigor in a saccadic system. This work is motivated by a strong literature linking dopamine to vigor, and some animal studies suggesting that ACH might modulate these effects, and is important because patient populations with symptoms related to reduced vigor are prescribed muscarinic antagonists. The authors use a motivated saccade task with distractors to measure the speed and vigor of actions in humans under placebo or muscarinic antagonism. They show that muscarinic antagonism blunts the motivational effects of reward on both saccade velocity and RT, and also modulates the distractibility of participants, in particular by increasing the repulsion of saccades away from distractors. They show that preparatory EEG signals reflect both motivation and drug condition, and make a case that these EEG signals mediate the effects of the drug on behavior.

      Strengths:

      This manuscript addresses an interesting and timely question and does so using an impressive within-subject pharmacological design and a task well-designed to measure constructs of interest. The authors show clear causal evidence that ACH affects different metrics of saccade generation related to effort expenditure and their modulation by incentive manipulations. The authors link these behavioral effects to motor preparatory signatures, indexed with EEG, that relate to behavioral measures of interest and in at least one case statistically mediate the behavioral effects of ACH antagonism.

      Weaknesses:

      In full disclosure, I have previously reviewed this manuscript in another journal and the authors have done a considerable amount of work to address my previous concerns. However, I have a few remaining concerns that affect my interpretation of the current manuscript.

      Some of the EEG signals (figures 4A&C) have profiles that look like they could have ocular, rather than central nervous, origins. Given that this is an eye movement task, it would be useful if the authors could provide some evidence that these signals are truly related to brain activity and not driven by ocular muscles, either in response to explicit motor effects (ie. Blinks) or in preparation for an upcoming saccade.

      We thank the reviewer for re-reviewing the manuscript and for raising this issue.

      All the EEG analyses (both ERP and whole-brain) are analysing the preparation period between the ready-cue and target appearance when no eye-movements are required. We reject trials with blinks or saccades over 1 degree in size, as detected by the Eyelink software according the sensitive velocity and acceleration criteria specified in the manuscript (Methods/Eye-tracking, page 19, line 550). This means that there should be no overt eye movements in the data. However, microsaccades and ocular drift are still possible within this period, which indeed could drive some effects. To measure this, we counted the number of microsaccades (<1 degree in size) in the preparation period between incentive cue and the target onset, for each trial. Further, we measure the mean absolute speed of the eye during the preparation period (excluding the periods during microsaccades) for each trial.

      We have run a control analysis to check whether including ocular drift speed or number of microsaccades as a covariate in the whole-brain regression analysis changes the association between EEG and the behavioural metrics at frontal or other electrodes. Below we show these ‘variable ~ EEG’ beta-coefficients when controlling for each eye-movement covariate, in the same format as Figure 4. We did not run the permutation testing on this due to time/computational costs (it takes >1 week per variable), so p-values were not calculated, only the beta-coefficients. The beta-coefficients are almost unchanged, both in time-course and topography, when controlling for either covariate.  The frontal associations to velocity and distractor pull remain, suggesting they are not due to these eye movements.

      We have added this figure as a supplemental figure.

      For additional clarity in this response, we also plot the differences between these covariate-controlled beta-coefficients, and the true beta-coefficients from figure 4 (please note the y-axis scales are -0.02:0.02, not -0.15:0.15 as in Figure 4 and Figure 4-figure supplement 2). This shows that the changes to the associations between EEG and velocity/distractor-pull were not frontally-distributed, demonstrating eye-movements were not driving these effects. Relatedly, the RT effect’s change was frontally-distributed, despite Figure 4 showing the true relationship was central in focus, again indicating that effect was also not related to these eye movements.

      Author response image 1.

      Difference in beta-coefficients when eye-movement covariates are included. This is the difference from the beta-coefficients shown in Figure 4, please note the smaller y-axis limits.

      The same pattern was seen if we controlled for the change in eye-position from the baseline period (measured by the eye-tracker) at each specific time-point, i.e., controlling for the distance the eye had moved from baseline at the time the EEG voltage is measured. The topographies and time-course plots were almost identical to the above ones:

      Author response image 2.

      Controlling for change in eye-position at each time-point does not change the regression results. Left column shows the beta-coefficients between the variable and EEG voltage, and the right column shows the difference from the main results in Figure 4 (note the smaller y-axis limits for the right-hand column).

      Therefore, we believe the brain-behaviour regressions are independent of eye-movements. We have included the first figure presented here as an additional supplemental figure, and added the following to the text (page 10, line 265):

      “An additional control analysis found that these results were not driven by microsaccades or ocular drift during the preparation period, as including these as trial-wise covariates did not substantially change the beta-coefficients (Figure 4 – Figure Supplement 2).”

      For other EEG signals, in particular, the ones reported in Figure 3, it would be nice to see what the spatial profiles actually look like - does the scalp topography match that expected for the signal of interest?

      Yes, the CNV is a central negative potential peaking around Cz, while the P3a is slightly anterior to this (peaking between Cz and FCz). We have added the topographies to the main figure (see point below).

      This is the topography of the mean CNV (1200:1500ms from the preparation cue onset), which is maximal over Cz, as expected.

      The P3a’s topography (200:280ms after preparation cue) is maximal slightly anterior to Cz, between Cz and FCz.

      A primary weakness of this paper is the sample size - since only 20 participants completed the study. The authors address the sample size in several places and I completely understand the reason for the reduced sample size (study halt due to COVID). That said, they only report the sample size in one place in the methods rather than through degrees of freedom in their statistical tests conducted throughout the results. In part because of this, I am not totally clear on whether the sample size for each analysis is the same - or whether participants were removed for specific analyses (ie. due to poor EEG recordings, for example).  

      We apologise for the lack of clarity here. All 20 participants were included in all analyses, although the number of trials included differed between behavioural and EEG analyses. We only excluded trials with EEG artefacts from the EEG analyses, not from the purely behavioural analyses such as Figures 1&2, although trials with blinks/saccades were removed from behavioural analyses too. Removing the EEG artefactual trials from the behavioural analyses did not change the findings, despite the lower power. The degrees of freedom in the figure supplement tables are the total number of trials (less 8 fixed-effect terms) included in the single-trial / trial-wise regression analyses we used.

      We have clarified this in the Methods/Analysis (page 20, line 602):

      “Behavioural and EEG analysis included all 20 participants, although trials with EEG artefacts were included in the behavioural analyses (18585 trials in total) and not the EEG analyses (16627 trials in total), to increase power in the former. Removing these trials did not change the findings of the behavioural analyses.”

      And we state the number of participants and trials in the start of the behavioural results (page 3, line 97):

      “We used single-trial mixed-effects linear regression (20 participants, 18585 trials in total) to assess the effects of Incentive, Distractors, and THP, along with all the interactions of these (and a random-intercept per participant), on residual velocity and saccadic RT.”

      and EEG results section (page 7, line 193):

      “We used single-trial linear mixed-effects regression to see the effects of Incentive and THP on each ERP (20 participants, 16627 trials; Distractor was included too, along with all interactions, and a random intercept by participant).”

      Beyond this point, but still related to the sample size, in some cases I worry that results are driven by a single subject. In particular, the interaction effect observed in Figure 1e seems like it would be highly sensitive to the single subject who shows a reverse incentive effect in the drug condition.

      Repeating that analysis after removing the participant with the large increase in saccadic RT with incentives did not remove the incentive*THP interaction effect – although it did weaken slightly from (β = 0.0218, p = .0002) to  (β=0.0197, p=.0082). This is likely because that while that participant did have slower RTs for higher incentives on THP, they were also slower for higher incentives under placebo (and similarly for distractor present/absent), making them less of an outlier in terms of effects than in raw RT terms. Below is Author response image 3 the mean-figure without that participant, and Author response image 4 that participant shown separately.

      Author response image 3.

      Author response image 4.

      There are not sufficient details on the cluster-based permutation testing to understand what the authors did or whether it is reasonable. What channels were included? What metric was computed per cluster? How was null distribution generated?

      We apologise for not giving sufficient details of this, and have updated the Methods/Analysis section to include these details, along with a brief description in the Results section.

      To clarify here, we adapted the DMGroppe Mass Univariate Testing toolbox to also run cluster-based permutation regressions to examine the relationship between the behavioural variables and the voltages at all EEG electrodes at each time point. On each iteration we shuffled the voltages across trials within each condition and person, and regressed it against the behavioural variable, with the model ‘variable ~1 + voltage + incentive*distractorPresent*THP + (1 | participant)’. The Voltage term measured the association between voltage and the behavioural variable, after controlling for effects of incentive*distractor*THP on behaviour – i.e. does adding the voltage at this time/channel explain additional variance in the variable not captured in our main behavioural analyses. By shuffling the voltages, we removed the relationship to the behavioural variable, to build the null distribution of t-statistics across electrodes and time-samples. We used the ‘cluster mass’ method (Bullmore et al., 1999; Groppe et al., 2011; Maris & Oostenveld, 2007) to build the null distribution of cluster mass (across times/channels per iteration), and calculated the p-value as the proportion of this distribution further from zero than the absolute true t-statistics (two-tailed test).

      We have given greater detail for this in the Methods/Analysis section (page 20, line 614):

      “We adapted this toolbox to also run cluster-based permutation regressions to examine the relationship between the behavioural variables and the voltages at all EEG electrodes at each time point. On each iteration we shuffled the voltages across trials within each condition and person, and regressed it against the behavioural variable, with the model ‘~1 + voltage + incentive*distractorPresent*THP + (1 | participant)’. The Voltage term measured the association between voltage and the behavioural variable, after controlling for effects of incentive*distractor*THP on behaviour. By shuffling the voltages, we removed the relationship to the behavioural variable, to build the null distribution of t-statistics across electrodes and time-samples. We used the ‘cluster mass’ method (Bullmore et al., 1999; Groppe et al., 2011; Maris & Oostenveld, 2007) to build the null distribution, and calculated the p-value as the proportion of this distribution further from zero than the true t-statistics (two-tailed test). Given the relatively small sample size here, these whole-brain analyses should not be taken as definitive.”

      And we have added a brief explanation to the Results section also (page 9, line 246):

      “We regressed each electrode and time-point against the three behavioural variables separately, while controlling for effects of incentive, distractor, THP, the interactions of those factors, and a random effect of participant. This analysis therefore asks whether trial-to-trial neural variability predicts behavioural variability. To assess significance, we used cluster-based permutation tests (DMGroppe Mass Univariate toolbox; Groppe, Urbach, & Kutas, 2011), shuffling the trials within each condition and person, and repeating it 2500 times, to build a null distribution of ‘cluster mass’ from the t-statistics (Bullmore et al., 1999; Maris & Oostenveld, 2007) which was used to calculate two-tailed p-values with a family-wise error rate (FWER) of .05 (see Methods/Analysis for details).”

      The authors report that "muscarinic antagonism strengthened the P3a" - but I was unable to see this in the data plots. Perhaps it is because the variability related to individual differences obscures the conditional differences in the plots. In this case, event-related difference signals could be helpful to clarify the results.

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this wording error, this should refer to the incentive effect weakening the P3a, as no other significant effects were found on the P3a, as stated correctly in the previous paragraph. We have corrected this in the manuscript (page 9, line 232):

      “This suggests that while incentives strengthened the incentive-cue response and the CNV and weakened the P3a, muscarinic antagonism strengthened the CNV,”

      The reviewer’s suggestion for difference plots is very valuable, and we have added these to Figure 3, as well as increasing the y-axis scale for figure 3c to show the incentives weakening the P3a more clearly, and adding the topographies suggested in an earlier comment. The difference waves for Incentive and THP effects show that both are decreasing voltage, albeit with slightly different onset times – Incentive starts earlier, thus weakening the positive P3a, while both strengthen the negative CNV. The Incentive effects within THP and Placebo separately illustrate the THP*Incentive interaction.

      We have amended the Results text and figure (page 7, line 200):

      “The subsequent CNV was strengthened (i.e. more negative; Figure 3d) by incentive (β = -.0928, p < .0001) and THP (β = -0.0502, p < .0001), with an interaction whereby THP decreased the incentive effect (β= 0.0172, p = .0213). Figure 3h shows the effects of Incentive and THP on the CNV separately, using difference waves, and Figure 3i shows the incentive effect grows more slowly in the THP condition than the Placebo condition.

      For mediation analyses, it would be useful in the results section to have a much more detailed description of the regression results, rather than just reporting things in a binary did/did not mediate sort of way. Furthermore, the methods should also describe how mediation was tested statistically (ie. What is the null distribution that the difference in coefficients with/without moderator is tested against?).

      We have added a more detailed explanation of how we investigated mediation and mediated moderation, and now report the mediation effects for all tests run and the permutation-test p-values.

      We had been using the Baron & Kenny (1986) method, based on 4 tests outlined in the updated text below, which gives a single measure of change in absolute beta-coefficients when all the tests have been met, but without any indication of significance; any reduction found after meeting the other 3 tests indicates a partial mediation under this method. We now use permutation testing to generate a p-value for the likelihood of finding an equal or larger reduction in the absolute beta-coefficients if the CNV were not truly related to RT. This found that the CNV’s mediation of the Incentive effect on RT was highly significant, while the Mediated Moderation of CNV on THP*Incentive was weakly significant.

      During this re-analysis, we noticed that we had different trial-numbers in the different regression models, as EEG-artefactual trials were not excluded from the behavioural-only model (‘RT ~ 1 + Incentive’). However, this causes issues with the permutation testing as we are shuffling the ERPs and need the same trials included in all the mixed-effects models. Therefore, we have redone these mediation analyses, including only the trials with valid ERP measures (i.e. no artefactual trials) in all models. This has changed the beta-coefficients we report, but not the findings or conclusions of the mediation analyses. We have updated the figure to have these new statistics.

      We have updated the text to explain the methodology in the Results section (page 12, line 284):

      “We have found that neural preparatory activity can predict residual velocity and RT, and is also affected by incentives and THP. Finally, we ask whether the neural activity can explain the effects of incentives and THP, through mediation analyses. We used the Baron & Kenny ( 1986) method to assess mediation (see Methods/Analysis for full details). This tests whether the significant Incentive effect on behaviour could be partially reduced (i.e., explained) by including the CNV as a mediator in a mixed-effects single-trial regression. We measured mediation as the reduction in (absolute) beta-coefficient for the incentive effect on behaviour when the CNV was included as a mediator (i.e., RT ~ 1 + Incentive + CNV + Incentive*CNV + (1 | participant)). This is a directional hypothesis of a reduced effect, and to assess significance we ran a permutation-test, shuffling the CNV within participants, and measuring the change in absolute beta-coefficient for the Incentive effect on behaviour. This generates a distribution of mediation effects where there is no relationship between CNV and RT on a trial (i.e., a null distribution). We ran 2500 permutations, and calculated the proportion with an equal or more negative change in absolute beta-coefficient, equivalent to a one-tailed test. We ran this mediation analysis separately for the two behavioural variables of RT and residual velocity, but not for distractor pull as it was not affected by incentive, so failed the assumptions of mediation analyses (Baron & Kenny, 1986; Muller et al., 2005). We took the mean CNV amplitude from 1200:1500ms as our Mediator.

      Residual velocity passed all the assumption tests for Mediation analysis, but no significant mediation was found. That is, Incentive predicted velocity (β=0.1304, t(1,16476)=17.3280, p<.0001); Incentive predicted CNV (β=-0.9122, t(1,16476)=-12.1800, p<.0001); and CNV predicted velocity when included alongside Incentive (β=0.0015, t(1,16475)=1.9753, p=.0483). However, including CNV did not reduce the Incentive effect on velocity, and in fact strengthened it (β=0.1318, t(1,16475)=17.4380, p<.0001; change in absolute coefficient: Δβ=+0.0014). Since there was no mediation (reduction), we did not run permutation tests on this.

      However, RT did show a significant mediation of the Incentive effect by CNV: Incentive predicted RT (β=-0.0868, t(1,16476)=-14.9330, p<.0001); Incentive predicted CNV (β=-0.9122, t(1,16476)=-12.1800, p<.0001); and CNV predicted RT when included alongside Incentive (β=0.0127, t(1,16475)=21.3160, p<.0001). The CNV mediated the effect of Incentive on RT, reducing the absolute beta-coefficient (β=-0.0752, t(1,16475)=-13.0570, p<.0001; change in absolute coefficient: Δβ= -0.0116). We assessed the significance of this change via permutation testing, shuffling the CNV across trials (within participants) and calculating the change in absolute beta-coefficient for the Incentive effect on RT when the permuted CNV was included as a mediator. We repeated this 2500 times to build a null distribution of Δβ, and calculated the proportion with equal or stronger reductions for a one-tailed p-value, which was highly significant (p<.0001). This suggests that the Incentive effect on RT is partially mediated by the CNV’s amplitude during the preparation period, and this is not the case for residual velocity.

      We also investigated whether the CNV could explain the cholinergic reduction in motivation (THP*Incentive interaction) on RT – i.e., whether CNV mediation the THP moderation. We measured Mediated Moderation as suggested by Muller et al. (2005; see Methods/Analysis for full explanation): Incentive*THP was associated with RT (β=0.0222, t(1,16474)=3.8272, p=.0001); and Incentive*THP was associated with CNV (β=0.1619, t(1,16474)=2.1671, p=.0302); and CNV*THP was associated with RT (β=0.0014, t(1,16472)=2.4061, p=.0161). Mediated Moderation was measured by the change in absolute Incentive*THP effect when THP*CNV was included in the mixed-effects model (β=0.0214, t(1,16472)=3.7298, p=.0002; change in beta-coefficient: Δβ= -0.0008), and permutation-testing (permuting the CNV as above) found a significant effect (p=.0132). This indicates cholinergic blockade changes how incentives affect preparatory negativity, and how this negativity reflects RT, which can explain some of the reduced invigoration of RT. However, this was not observed for saccade velocity.

      And we have updated the Methods/Analysis section with a more detailed explanation too (page 21, line 627):

      “For the mediation analysis, we followed the 4-step process  (Baron & Kenny, 1986; Muller et al., 2005), which requires 4 tests be met for the outcome (behavioural variable, e.g. RT), mediator (ERP, e.g., CNV) and the treatment (Incentive):

      (1) Outcome is significantly associated with the Treatment (RT ~ 1 + Incentive + (1 | participant))

      (2) Mediator is significantly associated with the Treatment (ERP ~ 1 + Incentive + (1 | participant))

      (3) Mediator is significantly associated with the Outcome (RT ~ 1 + Incentive + ERP + (1 | participant))

      (4) And the inclusion of the Mediator reduces the association between the Treatment and Outcome (Incentive effect from model #3)

      The mediation was measured by the reduction in the absolute standardised beta coefficient between incentive and behaviour when the ERP mediator was included (model #3 vs model #1 above). We used permutation-testing to quantify the likelihood of finding these mediations under the null hypothesis, achieved by shuffling the ERP across trials (within each participant) to remove any link between the ERP and behaviour. We repeated this 2500 times to build a null distribution of the change in absolute beta-coefficients for the RT ~ Incentive effect when this permuted mediator was included (model #3 vs model #1). We calculated a one-tailed p-value by finding the proportion of the null distribution that was equal or smaller than the true values (as Mediation is a one-tailed prediction).

      Mediated moderation (Muller et al., 2005) was used to see whether the effect of THP (the Moderator) on behaviour is mediated by the ERP, with the following tests (after the previous Mediation tests were already satisfied):

      (5) THP moderates the Incentive effect, via a significant Treatment*Moderator interaction on the Outcome (RT ~ 1 + Incentive + THP + Incentive*THP + (1 | participant))

      (6) THP moderates the Incentive effect on the Mediator, via a Treatment*Moderator interaction on the Outcome (ERP ~ 1 + Incentive + THP + Incentive*THP + (1 | participant))

      (7) THP’s moderation of the Incentive effect is mediated by the ERP, via a reduction in the association of Treatment*Moderator on the Outcome when the Treatment*Moderator interaction is included (RT ~ 1 + Incentive + THP + Incentive*THP + ERP + ERP*THP + (1 | participant)

      Mediated moderation is measured as the reduction in absolute beta-coefficients for ‘RT ~ Incentive*THP’ between model #5 and #7, which captures how much of this interaction could be explained by including the Mediator*Moderator interaction (ERP*THP in model #7). We tested the significance of this with permutation testing as above, permuting the ERP across trials (within participants) 2500 times, and building a null distribution of the change in the absolute beta-coefficients for RT ~ Incentive*THP between models #7 and #5. We calculated a one-tailed p-value from the proportion of these that were equal or smaller than the true change.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The analysis section could benefit from greater detail. For example, how exactly did they assess that the effects of the drug on peak velocity and RT were driven by non-distracting trials? Ideally, for every outcome, the analysis approach used should be detailed and justified.

      We apologise for the confusion from this. To clarify, we found a 2-way regression (incentive*THP) on both residual velocity and saccadic RT and this pattern was stronger in distractor-absent trials for residual velocity, and stronger in distractor-present trials for saccadic RT, as can be seen in Figure 1d&e. However, as there was no significant 3-way interaction (incentive*THP*distractor) for either metric, and the 2-way interaction effects were in the same direction in distractor present/absent trials for both metrics, we think these effects were relatively unaffected by distractor presence.

      We have updated the Results section to make this clearer: (page 3, line 94):

      We measured vigour as the residual peak velocity of saccades within each drug session (see Figure 1c & Methods/Eye-tracking), which is each trial’s deviation of velocity from the main sequence. This removes any overall effects of the drug on saccade velocity, while still allowing incentives and distractors to have different effects within each drug condition. We used single-trial mixed-effects linear regression (20 participants, 18585 trials in total) to assess the effects of Incentive, Distractors, and THP, along with all the interactions of these (and a random-intercept per participant), on residual velocity and saccadic RT. As predicted, residual peak velocity was increased by incentives (Figure 1d; β = 0.1266, p < .0001), while distractors slightly slowed residual velocity (β = -0.0158, p = .0294; see Figure 1 – Figure supplement 1 for full behavioural statistics). THP decreased the effect of incentives on velocity (incentive * THP: β = -0.0216, p = .0030), indicating that muscarinic blockade diminished motivation by incentives. Figure 1d shows that this effect was similar in distractor absent/present trials, although slightly stronger when the distractor was absent; the 3-way (distractor*incentive*THP) interaction was not significant (p > .05), suggesting that the distractor-present trials had the same effect but weaker (Figure 1d).

      Saccadic RT (time to initiation of saccade) was slower when participants were given THP (β = 0.0244, p = < .0001), faster with incentives (Figure 1e; β = -0.0767, p < .0001), and slowed by distractors (β = 0.0358, p < .0001). Again, THP reduced the effects of incentives (incentive*THP: β = 0.0218, p = .0002). Figure 1e shows that this effect was similar in distractor absent/present trials, although slightly stronger when the distractor was present; as the 3-way (distractor*incentive*THP) interaction was not significant and the direction of effects was the same in the two, it suggests the effect was similar in both conditions. Additionally, the THP*Incentive interactions were correlated between saccadic RT and residual velocity at the participant level (Figure 1 – Figure supplement 2).

      We have given more details of the analyses performed in the Methods section and the results, as requested by you and the other reviewers (page 20, line 602):

      Behavioural and EEG analysis included all 20 participants, although trials with EEG artefacts were included in the behavioural analyses (18585 trials in total) and not the EEG analyses (16627 trials in total), to increase power in the former. Removing these trials did not change the findings of the behavioural analyses.

      We used single-trial linear-mixed effects models to analyse our data, including participant as a random effect of intercept, with the formula ‘~1 + incentive*distractor*THP + (1 | participant)’. We z-scored all factors to give standardised beta coefficients.

      For the difference-wave cluster-based permutation tests (Figure 3 – Figure supplement 4), we used the DMGroppe Mass Univariate toolbox (Groppe et al., 2011), with 2500 permutations, to control the family-wise error rate at 0.05. This was used for looking at difference waves to test the effects of incentive, THP, and the incentive*THP interaction (using difference of difference-waves), across all EEG electrodes.

      We adapted this toolbox to also run cluster-based permutation regressions to examine the relationship between the behavioural variables and the voltages at all EEG electrodes at each time point. On each iteration we shuffled the voltages across trials within each condition and person, and regressed it against the behavioural variable, with the model ‘~1 + voltage + incentive*distractorPresent*THP + (1 | participant)’. The Voltage term measured the association between voltage and the behavioural variable, after controlling for effects of incentive*distractor*THP on behaviour. By shuffling the voltages, we removed the relationship to the behavioural variable, to build the null distribution of t-statistics across electrodes and time-samples. We used the ‘cluster mass’ method (Bullmore et al., 1999; Groppe et al., 2011; Maris & Oostenveld, 2007) to build the null distribution, and calculated the p-value as the proportion of this distribution further from zero than the true t-statistics (two-tailed test). Given the relatively small sample size here, these whole-brain analyses should not be taken as definitive.

      For the mediation analysis, we followed the 4-step process  (Baron & Kenny, 1986; Muller et al., 2005), which requires 4 tests be met for the outcome (behavioural variable, e.g. RT), mediator (ERP, e.g., CNV) and the treatment (Incentive):

      (1) Outcome is significantly associated with the Treatment (RT ~ 1 + Incentive + (1 | participant))

      (2) Mediator is significantly associated with the Treatment (ERP ~ 1 + Incentive + (1 | participant))

      (3) Mediator is significantly associated with the Outcome (RT ~ 1 + Incentive + ERP + (1 | participant))

      (4) And the inclusion of the Mediator reduces the association between the Treatment and Outcome (Incentive effect from model #3)

      The mediation was measured by the reduction in the absolute standardised beta coefficient between incentive and behaviour when the ERP mediator was included (model #3 vs model #1 above). We used permutation-testing to quantify the likelihood of finding these mediations under the null hypothesis, achieved by shuffling the ERP across trials (within each participant) to remove any link between the ERP and behaviour. We repeated this 2500 times to build a null distribution of the change in absolute beta-coefficients for the RT ~ Incentive effect when this permuted mediator was included (model #3 vs model #1). We calculated a one-tailed p-value by finding the proportion of the null distribution that was equal or more negative than the true value (as Mediation is a one-tailed prediction). For this mediation analysis, we only included trials with valid ERP measures, even for the models without the ERP included (e.g., model #1), to keep the trial-numbers and degrees of freedom the same.

      Mediated moderation (Muller et al., 2005) was used to see whether the effect of THP (the Moderator) on behaviour is mediated by the ERP, with the following tests (after the previous Mediation tests were already satisfied):

      (5) THP moderates the Incentive effect, via a significant Treatment*Moderator interaction on the Outcome (RT ~ 1 + Incentive + THP + Incentive*THP + (1 | participant))

      (6) THP moderates the Incentive effect on the Mediator, via a Treatment*Moderator interaction on the Outcome (ERP ~ 1 + Incentive + THP + Incentive*THP + (1 | participant))

      (7) THP’s moderation of the Incentive effect is mediated by the ERP, via a reduction in the association of Treatment*Moderator on the Outcome when the Treatment*Moderator interaction is included (RT ~ 1 + Incentive + THP + Incentive*THP + ERP + ERP*THP + (1 | participant)

      Mediated moderation is measured as the reduction in absolute beta-coefficients for ‘RT ~ Incentive*THP’ between model #5 and #7, which captures how much of this interaction could be explained by including the Mediator*Moderator interaction (ERP*THP in model #7). We tested the significance of this with permutation testing as above, permuting the ERP across trials (within participants) 2500 times, and building a null distribution of the change in the absolute beta-coefficients for RT ~ Incentive*THP between models #7 and #5. We calculated a one-tailed p-value from the proportion of these that were equal or more negative than the true change.

      (2) Please explain why only men were included in this study. We are all hoping that men-only research is a practice of the past.

      We only included men to prevent any chance of administering the drug to someone pregnant. Trihexyphenidyl is categorized by the FDA as a Pregnancy Category Class C drug, and the ‘Summary of Product Characteristics’ states: “There is inadequate information regarding the use of trihexyphenidyl in pregnancy. Animal studies are insufficient with regard to effects on pregnancy, embryonal/foetal development, parturition and postnatal development. The potential risk for humans is unknown. Trihexyphenidyl should not be used during pregnancy unless clearly necessary.”

      While the drug can be prescribed where benefits may outweigh this risk, as there were no benefits to participants in this study, we only recruited men to keep the risk at zero.

      We have updated the Methods/Drugs section to explain this (page 17, line 494):

      “The risks of Trihexyphenidyl in pregnancy are unknown, but the Summary Product of Characteristics states that it “should not be used during pregnancy unless clearly necessary”. As this was a basic research study with no immediate clinical applications, there was no justification for any risk of administering the drug during pregnancy, so we only recruited male participants to keep this risk at zero.”

      And we have referenced this in the Methods/Participants section (page 18, line 501):

      “Our sample size calculations suggested 27 participants would detect a 0.5 effect size with .05 sensitivity and .8 power. We recruited 27 male participants (see Drugs section above)”

      (3) Please explain acronyms (eg EEG) when first used.

      Thank you for pointing this out, we have explained EEG at first use in the abstract and the main text, along with FWER, M1r, and ERP which had also been missed at first use.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors say: "Therefore, acetylcholine antagonism reduced the invigoration of saccades by incentives, and increased the pull of salient distractors. We next asked whether these effects were coupled with changes in preparatory neural activity." But I found this statement to be misleading since the primary effects of the drug seem to have been to decrease the frequency of distractor-repulsed saccades... so "decreased push" would probably be a better analogy than "increased pull".

      Thank you for noticing this, we agree, and have changed this to (page 5, line 165):

      “Therefore, acetylcholine antagonism reduced the invigoration of saccades by incentives, and decreased the repulsion of salient distractors. We next asked whether these effects were coupled with changes in preparatory neural activity.”

      I don't see anything in EEG preprocessing about channel rejection and interpolation. Were these steps performed? There are very few results related to the full set of electrodes.

      We did not reject or interpolate any channels, as visual inspection found no obvious outliers in terms of noisiness, and no channels had standard deviations (across time/trials) higher than our standard cutoff (of 80). The artefact rejection was applied across all EEG channels, so any trials with absolute voltages over 200uV in any channel were removed from the analysis. On average 104/120 trials were included (having passed this check, along with eye-movement artefact checks) per condition per person, and we have added the range of these, along with totals across conditions to the Analysis section and a statement about channel rejection/interpolation (page 20, line 588):

      “Epochs were from -200:1500ms around the preparation cue onset, and were baselined to the 100ms before the preparation cue appeared. Visual inspection found no channels with outlying variance, so no channel rejection or interpolation was performed. We rejected trials from the EEG analyses where participants blinked or made saccades (according to EyeLink criteria above) during the epoch, or where EEG voltage in any channel was outside -200:200μV (muscle activity). On average 104/120 trials per condition per person were included (SD = 21, range = 21-120), and 831/960 trials in total per person (SD=160, range=313-954). A repeated-measures ANOVA found there were no significant differences in number of trials excluded for any condition (p > .2).”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment 

      This useful study reports how neuronal activity in the prefrontal cortex maps time intervals during which animals have to wait until reaching a reward and how this mapping is preserved across days. However, the evidence supporting the claims is incomplete as these sequential neuronal patterns do not necessarily represent time but instead may be correlated with stereotypical behavior and restraint from impulsive decision, which would require further controls (e.g. behavioral analysis) to clarify the main message. The study will be of interest to neuroscientists interested in decision making and motor control.

      We thank the editors and reviewers for the constructive comments. In light of the questions mentioned by the reviewers, we have performed additional analyses in our revision, particularly aiming to address issues related to single-cell scalability, and effects of motivation and movement. We believe these additional data will greatly improve the rigor and clarity of our study. We are grateful for the review process of eLife.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary:

      This paper investigates the neural population activity patterns of the medial frontal cortex in rats performing a nose poking timing task using in vivo calcium imaging. The results showed neurons that were active at the beginning and end of the nose poking and neurons that formed sequential patterns of activation that covaried with the timed interval during nose poking on a trial-by-trial basis. The former were not stable across sessions, while the latter tended to remain stable over weeks. The analysis on incorrect trials suggests the shorter non-rewarded intervals were due to errors in the scaling of the sequential pattern of activity.

      Strengths:

      This study measured stable signals using in vivo calcium imaging during experimental sessions that were separated by many days in animals performing a nose poking timing task. The correlation analysis on the activation profile to separate the cells in the three groups was effective and the functional dissociation between beginning and end, and duration cells was revealing. The analysis on the stability of decoding of both the nose poking state and poking time was very informative. Hence, this study dissected a neural population that formed sequential patterns of activation that encoded timed intervals. 

      We thank the reviewer for the positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      It is not clear whether animals had enough simultaneously recorded cells to perform the analyzes of Figures 2-4. In fact, rat 3 had 18 responsive neurons which probably is not enough to get robust neural sequences for the trial-by-trial analysis and the correct and incorrect trial analysis. 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. Our imaging data generally yielded 50-150 cells in each session. The 18 neurons mentioned by the reviewer are from the duration cell category. We have now provided the number of imaged cells from each rat in the new Supplementary figure 1D. In addition, we have plotted the duration cells’ sequential activity of individual trials for each rat in new Supplementary figure 1B and 1C. These data demonstrate robust sequential activities from the duration cells.

      In addition, the analysis of behavioral errors could be improved. The analysis in Figure 4A could be replaced by a detailed analysis on the speed, and the geometry of neural population trajectories for correct and incorrect trials.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions. We have now performed analyses of the neural population trajectories as the reviewer suggested. We have calculated the neural population trajectories using the first two principal components of the neural activities during nose poke events. While both correct and incorrect trials show similar shapes of the trajectories, correct trials show more expanded paths, with longer lengths on average. These new results are now updated in Figure 4. Since type I or type II errors would likely generate trajectories not following the general direction which is different from our observations, these results are consistent with our conclusion that scaling errors contribute to the incorrect behavior timing in these rats.

      In the case of Figure 4G is not clear why the density of errors formed two clusters instead of having a linear relation with the produce duration. I would be recommendable to compute the scaling factor on neuronal population trajectories and single cell activity or the computation of the center of mass to test the type III errors. 

      To clarify the original Figure 4G, the correct trials tended to show positive time estimation errors while the incorrect trials showed negative time estimation errors. We believe that the polarity switch between these two types suggests a possible use of this neural mechanism to time the action of the rats.

      In addition, we have performed the analysis suggested by the reviewer in our revision. We calculated two types of scaling factors. On individual cell level, we computed the peak position of individual trials to the expected positions from averaged template. And on neural population level, we searched for a scaling multiplier to resample the calcium activity data and minimized the differences between scaled activity and the expected template. Using these two factors, we found that correct trials show significantly larger scaling compared to incorrect trials, consistent with our original interpretation that behavior errors are primarily correlated with scaling errors in the neural activities (type III error). These new results are now incorporated in Figure 4 and we have also updated the main text for the descriptions.

      Due to the slow time resolution of calcium imaging, it is difficult to perform robust analysis on ramping activity. Therefore, I recommend downplaying the conclusion that: "Together, our data suggest that sequential activity might be a more relevant coding regime than the ramping activity in representing time under physiological conditions." 

      We agree with the reviewer, and have now modified this sentence in the abstract.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, Li and collaborators set out to investigate the neuronal mechanisms underlying "subjective time estimation" in rats. For this purpose, they conducted calcium imaging in the prefrontal cortex of water-restricted rats that were required to perform an action (nosepoking) for a short duration to obtain drops of water. The authors provided evidence that animals progressively improved in performing their task. They subsequently analyzed the calcium imaging activity of neurons and identify start, duration, and stop cells associated with the nose poke. Specifically, they focused on duration cells and demonstrated that these cells served as a good proxy for timing on a trial-by-trial basis, scaling their pattern of actvity in accordance with changes in behavioral performance. In summary, as stated in the title, the authors claim to provide mechanistic insights into subjective time estimation in rats, a function they deem important for various cognitive conditions.

      This study aligns with a wide range of studies in system neuroscience that presume that rodents solve timing tasks through an explicit internal estimation of duration, underpinned by neuronal representations of time. Within this framework, the authors performed complex and challenging experiments, along with advanced data analysis, which undoubtedly merits acknowledgement. However, the question of time perception is a challenging one, and caution should be exercised when applying abstract ideas derived from human cognition to animals. Studying so-called time perception in rats has significant shortcomings because, whether acknowledged or not, rats do not passively estimate time in their heads. They are constantly in motion. Moreover, rats do not perform the task for the sake of estimating time but to obtain their rewards are they water restricted. Their behavior will therefore reflects their motivation and urgency to obtain rewards. Unfortunately, it appears that the authors are not aware of these shortcomings. These alternative processes (motivation, sensorimotor dynamics) that occur during task performance are likely to influence neuronal activity. Consequently, my review will be rather critical. It is not however intended to be dismissive. I acknowledge that the authors may have been influenced by numerous published studies that already draw similar conclusions. Unfortunately, all the data presented in this study can be explained without invoking the concept of time estimation. Therefore, I hope the authors will find my comments constructive and understand that as scientists, we cannot ignore alternative interpretations, even if they conflict with our a priori philosophical stance (e.g., duration can be explicitly estimated by reading neuronal representation of time) and anthropomorphic assumptions (e.g., rats estimate time as humans do). While space is limited in a review, if the authors are interested, they can refer to a lengthy review I recently published on this topic, which demonstrates that my criticism is supported by a wide range of timing experiments across species (Robbe, 2023). In addition to this major conceptual issue that cast doubt on most of the conclusions of the study, there are also several major statistical issues.

      Main Concerns

      (1) The authors used a task in which rats must poke for a minimal amount of time (300 ms and then 1500 ms) to be able to obtain a drop of water delivered a few centimeters right below the nosepoke. They claim that their task is a time estimation task. However, they forget that they work with thirsty rats that are eager to get water sooner than later (there is a reason why they start by a short duration!). This task is mainly probing the animals ability to wait (that is impulse control) rather than time estimation per se. Second, the task does not require to estimate precisely time because there appear to be no penalties when the nosepokes are too short or when they exceed. So it will be unclear if the variation in nosepoke reflects motivational changes rather than time estimation changes. The fact that this behavioral task is a poor assay for time estimation and rather reflects impulse control is shown by the tendency of animals to perform nose-pokes that are too short, the very slow improvement in their performance (Figure 1, with most of the mice making short responses), and the huge variability. Not only do the behavioral data not support the claim of the authors in terms of what the animals are actually doing (estimating time), but this also completely annhilates the interpretation of the Ca++ imaging data, which can be explained by motivational factors (changes in neuronal activity occurring while the animals nose poke may reflect a growing sens of urgency to check if water is available). 

      We would like to respond to the reviewer’s comments 1, 2 and 4 together, since they all focus on the same issue. We thank the reviewer for the very thoughtful comments and for sharing his detailed reasoning from a recently published review (Robbe, 2023). A lot of discussions go beyond the scope of this study, and we agree that whether there is an explicit representation of time (an internal clock) in the brain is a difficult question to be answer, particularly by using animal behaviors. In fact, even with fully conscious humans and elaborated task design, we think it is still questionable to clearly dissociate the neural substrate of “timing” from “motor”. In the end, it may as well be that as the reviewer cited from Bergson’sarticle, the experience of time cannot be measured.

      Studying the neural representation of any internal state may suffer from the same ambiguity. With all due respect, however, we would like to limit our response to the scope of our results. According to the reviewer, two alternative interpretations of the task-related sequential activity exist: 1, duration cells may represent fidgeting or orofacial movements and 2, duration cells may represent motivation or motion plan of the rats. To test the first alternative interpretation, we have now performed a more comprehensive analysis of the behavior data at all the limbs and visible body parts of the experimental rats during nose poke and analyzed its periodicity among different trials. We found that the coding cells (including duration, start and end cells) activities were not modulated by these motions, arguing against this possibility. These data are now included in the new Supp. Figure 2, and we have added corresponding texts in the manuscript.

      Regarding the second alternative interpretation, we think our data in the original Figure 4G argues against it. In this graph, we plotted the decoding error of time using the duration cells’ activity against the actual duration of the trials. If the sequential activity of durations cells only represents motivation, then the errors should be linearly modulated by trial durations. The unimodal distribution we observed (Figure 4G and see graph below for a re-plot without signs) suggests that the scaling factor of the sequential activity represents information related to time. And the fact that this unimodal distribution centered at the time threshold of the task provides strong evidence for the active use of scaling factor for time estimation.

      In order to further test the relationship to motivation, we have measured the time interval between exiting nose poke to the start of licking water reward as an independent measurement of motivation for each trial. We found that this reward-seeking time was positively correlated with the trial durations, suggesting that the durations were correlated with motivation to some degree. And when we scaled the activities of the duration cells by this reward-seeking time, we found that the patterns of the sequential activities were largely diminished, and showed a significantly lower peak entropy compared to the same activities scaled by trial durations. The remaining sequential pattern may be due to the correlation between trial durations and motivation (Supp. Figure 2), and the sequential pattern reflects timing more prominently. These analyses provide further evidence that the sequential activities were not coding motivations. These data are included in Figure 2F, 2K and supp. Figure 3 in revised manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      Regarding whether the scaling sequential activity we report represents behavioral timing or true time estimation, we did not have evidence on this point. However, a previous study has shown that PFC silencing led to disruption of the mouse’s timing behavior without affecting the execution of the task (PMID: 24367075), arguing against the behavior timing interpretation. The main surprising finding of our present study is that these duration cells are different from the start and end cells

      in terms of their coding stability. Thus, future studies dissecting the anatomical microcircuit of these duration cells may provide further clues regarding whether they are connected with reward-related or motion-related brain regions. This may help partially resolve the “time” vs.

      “motor” debate the reviewer mentioned.

      (2) A second issue is that the authors seem to assume that rats are perfectly immobile and perform like some kind of robots that would initiate nose pokes, maintain them, and remove them in a very discretized manner. However, in this kind of task, rats are constantly moving from the reward magazine to the nose poke. They also move while nose-poking (either their body or their mouth), and when they come out of the nose poke, they immediately move toward the reward spout. Thus, there is a continuous stream of movements, including fidgeting, that will covary with timing. Numerous studies have shown that sensorimotor dynamics influence neural activity, even in the prefrontal cortex. Therefore, the authors cannot rule out that what the records reflect are movements (and the scaling of movement) rather than underlying processes of time estimation (some kind of timer). Concretely, start cells could represent the ending of the movement going from the water spout to the nosepoke, and end cells could be neurons that initiate (if one can really isolate any initiation, which I doubt) the movement from the nosepoke to the water spout. Duration cells could reflect fidgeting or orofacial movements combined with an increasing urgency to leave the nose pokes.

      (3) The statistics should be rethought for both the behavioral and neuronal data. They should be conducted separately for all the rats, as there is likely interindividual variability in the impulsivity of the animals.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment, yet we are not quite sure what specifically was asked by the reviewer. It appears that the reviewer requires we conduct our analysis using each rat individually. In our revised manuscript, we have conducted and reported analyses with individual rat in the original Figure 1C, Figure 2C, G, K, Figure 4F.

      (4) The fact that neuronal activity reflects an integration of movement and motivational factors rather than some abstract timing appears to be well compatible with the analysis conducted on the error trials (Figure 4), considering that the sensorimotor and motivational dynamics will rescale with the durations of the nose poke. 

      (5) The authors should mention upfront in the main text (result section) the temporal resolution allowed by their Ca+ probe and discuss whether it is fast enough in regard of behavioral dynamics occurring in the task. 

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have originally mentioned the caveat of calcium imaging in the interpretation of our results. We have now incorporated more texts for this purpose during our revision. In terms of behavioral dynamics (start and end of nose poke in this case), we think calcium imaging could provide sufficient kinetics. However, the more refined dynamics related to the reproducibility of the sequential activity or the precise representation of individual cells on the scaled duration may be benefited from improved time resolution.

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) Please refer explicitly to the three types of cells in the abstract. 

      We have now modified the abstract as suggested during revision.

      (2) Please refer to the work of Betancourt et al., 2023 Cell Reports, where a trial-by-trail analysis on the correlation between neural trajectory dynamics in MPC and timing behavior is reported. In that same paper the stability of neural sequences across task parameters is reported. 

      We have now cited and discussed the study in the discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      (3) Please state the number of studied animals at the beginning of the results section. 

      We have now provided this information as requested. The numbers of rats are also plotted in Figure 1D for each analysis.

      (4) Why do the middle and right panels of Figure 2E show duration cells. 

      Figure 2E was intended to show examples of duration cells’ activity. We included different examples of cells that peak at different points in the scaled duration. We believe these multiple examples would give the readers a straight forward impression of these cells’ activity patterns.

      (5) Which behavioral sessions of Figure 1B were analyzed further.

      We have now labeled the analyzed sessions in Figure 1B with red color in the revised manuscript.

      (6) In Figure 3A-C please increase the time before the beginning of the trial in order to visualize properly the activation patterns of the start cells.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and have now modified the figure accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      (7) Please state what could be the behavioral and functional effect of the ablation of the cortical tissue on top of mPFC.

      We thank the reviewer for the question. In our experience, mice with lens implanted in the mPFC did not show observable difference with mice without surgery in the acquisition of the task and the distribution of the nose-poke durations. In our dataset, rats with the lens implantation showed similar nose-poking behavior as those without lens implantation (Figure 1B). Thus, it seems that the effect of ablation, if any, was quite limited, in the scope of our task.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Joint Public Review: 

      The molecular mechanisms that mediate the regulated exocytosis of neuropeptides and neurotrophins from neurons via large dense-core vesicles (LDCVs) are still incompletely understood. Motivated by their earlier discovery that the Rab3-RIM1 pathway is essential for neuronal LDCV exocytosis, the authors now examined the role of the Rab3 effector Rabphilin-3A in neuronal LDCV secretion. Based on multiple live and confocal imaging approaches, the authors provide evidence for a synaptic enrichment of Rabphilin-3A and for independent trafficking of Rabphilin-3A and LDCVs. Using an elegant NPY-pHluorin imaging approach, they show that genetic deletion of Rabphilin-3A causes an increase in electrically triggered LDCV fusion events and increased neurite length. Finally, knock-out-replacement studies, involving Rabphilin-3A mutants deficient in either Rab3- or SNAP25-binding, indicate that the synaptic enrichment of Rabphilin-3A depends on its Rab3 binding ability, while its ability to bind to SNAP25 is required for its effects on LDCV secretion and neurite development. The authors conclude that Rabphilin-3A negatively regulates LDCV exocytosis and propose that this mechanism also affects neurite growth, e.g. by limiting neurotrophin secretion. These are important findings that advance our mechanistic understanding of neuronal large dense-core vesicle (LDCV) secretion. 

      The major strengths of the present paper are: 

      (i) The use of a powerful Rabphilin-3A KO mouse model. 

      (ii) Stringent lentiviral expression and rescue approaches as a strong genetic foundation of the study. 

      (iii) An elegant FRAP imaging approach. 

      (iv) A cutting-edge NPY-pHluorin-based imaging approach to detect LDCV fusion events. 

      We thank the reviewers for their positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses that somewhat limit the convincingness of the evidence provided and the corresponding conclusions include the following: 

      (i) The limited resolution of the various imaging approaches introduces ambiguity to several parameters (e.g. LDCV counts, definition of synaptic localization, Rabphilin-3A-LDCV colocalization, subcellular and subsynaptic localization of expressed proteins, AZ proximity of Rabphilin-3A and LDCVs) and thereby limits the reliability of corresponding conclusions. Super-resolution approaches may be required here. 

      We thank the reviewer for their constructive suggestion. We fully agree that super-resolution imaging would produce a more precise localization of RPH3A and co-localization with DCVs. We have now repeated our (co)-localization experiments with STED microscopy. We find that RPH3A colocalized with the pre-synaptic marker Synapsin1 and, to a lesser extent, with the post synaptic marker Homer and DCV marker chromogranin B (new Figure 1). This indicates that RPH3A is highly enriched in synapses, mostly the pre-synapse, and that RPH3A partly co-localizes with DCVs.  

      (ii) The description of the experimental approaches lacks detail in several places, thus complicating a stringent assessment. 

      We apologize for the lack of detail in explaining the experimental approaches. We have included a more detailed description in the revised manuscript. 

      (iii) Further analyses of the LDCV secretion data (e.g. latency, release time course) would be important in order to help pinpoint the secretory step affected by Rabphilin-3A. 

      We agree. To address this comment, we have now included the duration of the fusion events (new Figure S2D-F). The start time of the fusion events are shown in the cumulative plots in now Figure 3F and I. The kinetics are normal in the RPH3A KO neurons.

      (iv) It remains unclear why a process that affects a general synaptic SNARE fusion protein - SNAP25 - would specifically affect LDCV but not synaptic vesicle fusion. 

      We agree that we have not addressed this issue systematically enough in the original manuscript. We have now added a short discussion on this topic in the Discussion of the revised manuscript (p 15, line 380-386). In brief, we do not claim full selectivity for the DCV pathway. Some effects of RPH3A deficiency on the synaptic vesicle cycle have been observed. Furthermore, because DCVs typically do not mix in the synaptic vesicle cluster and fuse outside the active zone (and outside the synapse), DCVs might be more accessible to RPH3A regulation.

      (v) The mechanistic links between Rabphilin-3A function, LDCV density in neurites, neurite outgrowth, and the proposed underlying mechanisms involving trophic factor release remain unclear. 

      We agree that we have not addressed all these links systematically enough in the original manuscript, although we feel that we have at least postulated the best possible working model to link RPH3A function to DCV exocytosis/neurotrophic factor release and neurite outgrowth (p 15-16, line 396-400). Of course, a single study cannot support all these links with sufficient experimental evidence. We have now added a short text on what we can conclude exactly based on our experiments and how we see the links between RPH3A function, DCV exocytosis/neurotrophic factor release, neurite outgrowth and DCV density in neurites (p 13-14, line 317-325).

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Hoogstraaten et al. investigates the effect of constitutive Rabphilin 3A (RPH3A) ko on the exocytosis of dense core vesicles (DCV) in cultured mouse hippocampal neurons. Using mCherry- or pHluorin-tagged NPY expression and EGFP- or mCherry tagged RPHA3, the authors first analyse the colocalization of DCVs and RPH3A. Using FRAP, the authors next analyse the mobility of DCVs and RAB3A in neurites. The authors go on to determine the number of exocytotic events of DCVs in response to high-frequency electrical stimulation and find that RPH3A ko increases the number of exocytotic events by a factor 2-3, but not the fraction of released DCVs in a given cell (8x 50Hz stim). In contrast, the release fraction is also increased in RBP3A KOs when doubling the stimulation number (16x 50Hz). They further observe that RPH3A ko increases dendrite and axon length and the overall number of ChgrB-positive DCVs. However, the overall number of DCVs and dendritic length in ko cells directly correlate, indicating that the number of vesicles per dendritic length remains unaffected in the RPH3A KOs. Lentiviral co-expression of tetanus toxin (TeNT) showed a non-significant trend to reduce axon and dendrite length in RPH3a KOs. Finally, the authors use co-expression of RAB3A and SNAP25 constructs to show that RAB3A but not SNAP25 interaction is required to allow the exocytosis-enhancing effect in RPH3A KOs. 

      While the authors' methodology is sound, the microscopy results are performed well and analyzed appropriately, but their results in larger parts do not sufficiently support their conclusions. Moreover, the experiments are not always described in sufficient detail (e.g. FRAP; DCV counts vs. neurite length) to fully understand their claims. 

      Overall, I thus feel that the manuscript does not provide a sufficient advance in knowledge. 

      Strengths: 

      - The authors' methodology is sound, and the microscopy results are performed well and analyzed appropriately. 

      - Figure 2: The exocytosis imaging is elegant and potentially very insightful. The effect in the RPH3A KOs is convincing. 

      - Figure 4: the logic of this experiment is elegant. It shows that the increased number of DCV fusion events in RPH3A KOs is related to the interaction of RPH3A with RAB3A but not with SNAP25. 

      We thank the reviewer for their positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses: 

      - The results in larger parts do not sufficiently support the conclusions. 

      - The experiments are not always described in sufficient detail (e.g. FRAP; DCV counts vs. neurite length) to fully understand their claims. 

      - Not of sufficient advance in knowledge for this journal 

      - The significance of differences in control experiments WT vs. KO) varies between experiments shown in different figures. 

      - Axons and dendrites were not analyzed separately in Figures 1 and 2. 

      - The colocalization study in Figure 1 would require super-resolution microscopy. 

      To address the reviewers’ comments, we have provided a more detailed explanation of our analysis (p 19-20, line 521-542). In addition, we have repeated our colocalization experiments using STED microscopy, see Joint Public Review item (i).  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Hoogstraaten et al investigated the involvement of rabphilin-3A RPH3A in DCV fusion in neurons during calcium-triggered exocytosis at the synapse and during neurite elongation. They suggest that RPH3A acts as an inhibitory factor for LDV fusion and this is mediated partially via its interaction with SNAP25 and not Rab3A/Rab27. It is a very elegant study although several questions remain to be clarified. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors use state-of-the-art techniques like tracking NPY-PHluorin exocytosis and FRAP experiments to quantify these processes providing novel insight into LDCs exocytosis and the involvement of RPH3A. 

      We thank the reviewer for their positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses: 

      At the current state of the manuscript, further supportive experiments are necessary to fully support the authors' conclusions. 

      We thank the reviewer for their comments and suggestions. We have performed additional experiments to support our conclusions, see Joint Public Review items (i) – (iv)

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The molecular mechanism of regulated exocytosis has been extensively studied in the context of synaptic transmission. However, in addition to neurotransmitters, neurons also secrete neuropeptides and neurotrophins, which are stored in dense core vesicles (DCVs). These factors play a crucial role in cell survival, growth, and shaping the excitability of neurons. The mechanism of release for DCVs is similar, but not identical, to that used for SV exocytosis. This results in slow kinetic and low release probabilities for DCV compared to SV exocytosis. There is a limited understanding of the molecular mechanisms that underlie these differences. By investigating the role of rabphilin-3A (RPH3A), Hoogstraaten et al. uncovered for the first time a protein that inhibits DCV exocytosis in neurons. 

      Strengths: 

      In the current work, Hoogstraaten et al. investigate the function of rabphilin-3A (RPH3A) in DVC exocytosis. This RAB3 effector protein has been shown to possess a Ca2+ binding site and an independent SNAP25 binding site. Using colocalization analysis of confocal imaging the authors show that in hippocampal neurons RPH3A is enriched at pre- and post-synaptic sites and associates specifically with immobile DCVs. Using site-specific RPH3A mutants they found that the synaptic location was due to its RAB3 interaction site. They further could show that RPH3A inhibits DCV exocytosis due to its interaction with SNAP25. They came to that conclusion by comparing NPY-pHluorin release in WT and RPH3A KO cells and by performing rescue experiments with RPH3A mutants. Finally, the authors showed that by inhibiting stimulated DCV release, RPH3A controlled the axon and dendrite length possibly through the reduced release of neurotrophins. Thereby, they pinpoint how the proper regulation of DCV exocytosis affects neuron physiology. 

      We thank the reviewer for their positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses: 

      Data context 

      One of the findings is that RPH3A accumulates at synapses and is mainly associated with immobile DCVs.

      However, Farina et al. (2015) showed that 66% of all DCVs are secreted at synapses and that these DCVs are immobile prior to secretion. To provide additional context to the data, it would be valuable to determine if RPH3A KO specifically enhances secretion at synapses. Additionally, the authors propose that RPH3A decreases DCV exocytosis by sequestering SNAP25 availability. At first glance, this hypothesis appears suitable. However, due to RPH3A synaptic localization, it should also limit SV exocytosis, which it does not. In this context, the only explanation for RPH3A's specific inhibition of DCV exocytosis is that RPH3A is located at a synapse site remote from the active zone, thus protecting the pool of SNAP25 involved in SV exocytosis from binding to RPH3A. This hypothesis could be tested using super-resolution microscopy. 

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We have now performed super resolution microscopy, see Joint Public Review item (i). However, these new data do not necessarily explain the stronger effect of RP3A deficiency on DCV exocytosis, relative to SV exocytosis. We have added a short discussion on this topic to the revised manuscript, see Joint Public Review item (iv).

      Technical weakness 

      One technical weakness of this work consists in the proper counting of labeled DCVs. This is significant since most findings in this manuscript rely on this analysis. Since the data was acquired with epi-fluorescence or confocal microscopy, it doesn't provide the resolution to visualize individual DCVs when they are clumped. The authors use a proxy to count the number of DCVs by measuring the total fluorescence of individual large spots and dividing it by the fluorescence intensity of discrete spots assuming that these correspond to individual DCVs. This is an appropriate method but it heavily depends on the assumption that all DCVs are loaded with the same amount of NPY-pHluorin or chromogranin B (ChgB). Due to the importance of this analysis for this manuscript, I suggest that the authors show that the number of DCVs per µm2 is indeed affected by RPH3A KO using super-resolution techniques such as dSTORM, STED, SIM, or SRRF. 

      The reviewer is correct that this is a crucial issue, that we have not addressed optimally until now. We have previously devoted a large part of a previous manuscript to this issue, but have not referred to this previous work clearly enough. We have now clarified this (p 7, line 187-190). In brief, we have previously quantified the ratio between fluorescent intensity of ChgB and NPY-pHluorin in confocal microscopy over the number of dSTORM puncta in sparse areas of WT mouse hippocampal neurons (Persoon et al., 2018). This quantification yielded a unitary fluorescence intensity per vesicle that was very stable of different neurons. Although there might be some underestimation of the total number of DCVs when using confocal microscopy, the study of Persoon et al. (2018) has demonstrated that these parameters correlate well and that the estimations are accurate. Considering that the rF/F0 is similar in RPH3A WT and KO neurons (now Figure S2I), meaning that the intensity of NPY-pHluorin of one fusion event is comparable, we can presume that this correlation also applies for the RPH3A KO neurons.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Major points: 

      (1) The authors perform an extensive analysis regarding the colocalization of RPH3A and DCVs (Figure 1 upper part). This analysis is hampered by the fact that the recorded data has in relation to vesicle size limited resolution (> 1 µm) to allow making strong claims here. In my view, super-resolution microscopy would be required for the co-localization studies shown in Figure 1. 

      We fully agree and have now performed super-resolution microscopy, see Joint Public Review item (i)

      (2) The FRAP experiments (Figure 1 lower part) cannot be sufficiently understood from what is presented. The methods say that both laser channels were activated during bleaching but NPY-pHluorin is not bleached in Fig.1E. Explanation of the bleaching is not very circumspect. In 1D, it is rather EGFP-RPH3A that is entering the bleached area than the NPY vesicles. These experiments require a more careful explanation of methodology, observed results, and their interpretation. Overall, the observed effects in the original kymograph traces require a better explanation. 

      We acknowledge that NPY-pHluorin in Figure 1E (now Figure 2C) is not completely bleached. NPY-pHluorin appeared to be more difficult to bleach than NPY-mCherry. However, it is important to clarify that we merely bleached the neurites to remove the stationary puncta and facilitate our analysis of DCV/RPH3A dynamics. This bleaching step does not affect the interpretation of our results. We apologize that this was not clearly stated in the text and have made the necessary adjustments in legend, results- and methods section, (p 6-7, line 162-163; p 5, line 140-142 and p 19, line 508-513). Additionally, we apologize for the accidental switch of the kymographs for NPY-mCherry and EGFP-RPH3A in Figure 1D (now Figure 2B, C). We greatly appreciate identifying this error.  

      (3) Figure 1: The authors need to mention whether axons, dendrites, or both were analyzed throughout the different panels and how they were identified. Is it possible that axons were wrapping around dendrites in their cultures (compare e.g. Shimojo et al., 2015)? Given the limited spatial resolution and because of this wrapping, interpretation of results could be affected. 

      We completely agree with the reviewer’s assessment and conclusion. We are unable to distinguish axons from dendrites using this experimental design. We have made sure to specify in the text that our observation that RPH3A does not co-travel with DCVs is true for both dendrites and axons, (p 5, line 150).

      (4) Figure 2: The exocytosis imaging is elegant and potentially very insightful. The effect in the RPH3A KOs is convincing. However, the authors determine the efficacy of exocytosis from NPY-pHluorin unquenching of DCVs only. This is only one of several possible parameters to read out the efficiency of exocytosis. Kinetics like e.g. delay between stimulation and start of exocytosis events or release time course of NPY after DCV fusion were not determined. Such analysis could give a better insight into what process before or after the fusion of DCVs is affected by RPH3A ko. 

      We fully agree with the reviewer. We have now included the duration of the fusion events (new Figure S2D-F). The start time of the fusion events are shown in the cumulative plots in now Figure 3F and I. The kinetics are normal in the RPH3A KO neurons.

      Moreover, it needs to be mentioned whether 2C and D are from WT or ko cultures. It would be best to show representative examples from both genotypes. 

      We have now adjusted this in the new figure (now Figure 3C, D).

      The number of fusion events is much increased but the release fraction is not significantly changed. While this is consistent with results in Figure 4C it is at variance with 4F. This raises questions about the reliability of the effects in RPH3A KOs. 

      The release fraction indicates the number of fusion events normalized to the total DCV pool. In Figure 4D, we observed a slightly bigger pool size, which explains the lack of significance when analyzing the released fraction. In Figure 4G, however, DCV pool sizes are similar between KO and WT, leading to a statistically significant effect on release fraction in KO neurons. Furthermore, Figures 4B and E distinctly show a substantial increase in fusion events in RPH3A KO neurons. This variability in pool size observed could potentially be attributed to variation in culture or inherent biological variability.

      Given the increased number of ChgrB-positive DCVs in RPH3A KOs (shown in Figure 2) and that only the cumulative number of exocytosis events were analysed, how can the authors exclude that the RPH3A ko only affects vesicle number but not release, if the % change in released vesicles is not different to WT? Kinetics of release don't seem to be affected. Importantly, what was the density of NPY-pHluorin vesicles in WT vs. ko? 

      In Figure 2 (now Figure 5) we show that RPH3A KO neurons are larger and contain more endogenous ChgB+ puncta than WT neurons. This increased number of ChgrB+ puncta scales with their size as puncta density is not increased. A previous study (Persoon et al., 2018) has demonstrated a strong correlation between DCV number and neuron size. Our data show that RPH3A deficiency increased DCV exocytosis, but the released fraction of vesicles depends on the total number of DCVs, which we determined during live recording by dequenching NPY-pHluorin using NH4+. Considering that this is an overexpression of a heterologous DCV-fusion reporter, and not endogenous staining of DCVs, as in the case of ChgrB+ puncta, some variability is not unexpected.

      Also in these experiments, the question arises of whether the authors analyse axons, dendrites, or both throughout the different panels and how they were identified. 

      In our experimental design we record all fusion events per cell, including both axons and dendrites but excluding the cell soma. We have clarified this in the method section, (p 19, line 508 and p 19, line 521-522).

      (5) Figure 3: in D the authors show that ChgrB-pos. DCV density is slightly increased in KOs. How does this relate to the density of NPY-pHluorin DCVS in Figure 2? 

      We do not observe a difference in NPY-pHluorin density (see Author response image 1). However, it is important to note that we relied on tracing neurites in live recording images to determine the neuronal size. In contrast, the ChgB density was based on dendritic length using MAP2 (post-hoc) staining was limited. In addition, Chgr+ puncta represent an endogenous DCV staining, NPY-pHluorin quantification is based on overexpression of a heterologous DCV-fusion reporter. These two factors likely contribute some variability.

      Author response image 1.

      The authors show a non-significant trend of TeNT coexpression to reduce axon and dendrite lengths in RPH3A KOs. While this trend is visible, I think one cannot draw conclusions from that when not reaching significance. The argument of the authors that the increased axon and dendrite lengths are created by growth factor peptide release from DCV during culture time is interesting. However, the fact that TeNT expression shows a trend toward reducing this effect on axons/dendrites is not sufficient to prove the release of such growth factors. 

      We agree. We have toned down this speculation in the revised manuscript, (p 15-16, line 395-400).

      Lastly, the authors don't provide insight into the mechanisms, of how RPH3A ko increases the number of DCVs per µm dendritic length in the neurons. In my view, there are too many loose ends in this story of how RPH3A ko first increases spontaneous release of DCVs and then enhances neurite growth and DCV density. Did the authors e.g. measure the spontaneous release of DCVs in their cultures? 

      We measured spontaneous release of DCVs during the 30s baseline recording prior to stimulation. We observed no difference in spontaneous release between WT and KO neurons (now Figure S2H). However, baseline recording lasted only 30 seconds. It is possible that this was too short to detect subtle effects.

      Other points: 

      (1) Figure 4: the logic of this experiment is elegant. It shows that the increased number of DCV fusion events in RPH3A KOs is related to the interaction of RPH3A with RAB3A but not with SNAP25. As mentioned above, it is irritating that the reduction of fusion events in KOs and on the release fraction is sometimes reaching significance, but sometimes it does not. Likewise, the absence of significant effects on DCV numbers is not consistent with the results shown in Figures 3C and D. 

      DCV numbers in Figure 3 (now Figure 5) are determined by staining for endogenous ChgB, whereas in Figure 4D and G DCV numbers are determined by overexpressing NPY-pHluorin and counting the dequenched puncta following a NH4+ puff.

      (2) Figure 1B: truncation of the y-axis needs to be clearly indicated. 

      We have replaced this figure with new Figure 1 and have indicated truncations of the y-axis when needed (new Figure 1E). 

      (3) Page 10: "Given that neuropeptides are key modulators of adult neurogenesis (Mu et al., 2010), and that RPH3A depletion leads to increased DCV exocytosis, it is coherent that we observed longer neurites in RPH3A KO neurons." I cannot follow the argument of the authors here: what has neurogenesis to do with neurite length? 

      We apologize for the confusion. We have clarified this in the revised text, (p 16, line 398-400).

      Minor point: 

      There are some typos in the manuscript. e.g., page 8: "... may partially dependent on regulated secretion...); page 6: "...to dequence all...". 

      Thank you for noticing, we have corrected the typos.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) Supplementary Figure S1A, in my opinion, should be in Figure 1A as it illustrates all the constructs used in this study and helps the reader to follow it up. 

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. However, we feel that with the adjustments we have made in Figure 1, the illustrations of the constructs fit better in Figure S1, since new Figure 1 shows the localization of endogenous RPH3A and not that of the constructs.  

      (2) One of the conclusions of the manuscript is the synaptic localization of the different RPH3A mutants. The threshold for defining synaptic localization is not clear either from the images nor from the analysis: for example, the Menders coefficient for VGut1-Syn1 which is used as a positive control, ranges from 0.65-0.95 and that of RPH3A and Syn1 ranges from 0.5-0.95. These values should be compared to all mutants and the conclusions should be based on such comparison. 

      We agree. We have now repeated our initial co-localization experiment with all the RPH3A mutants (now Figure S1D-F).  

      (3) Strengthening this figure with STED/SIM/dSTORM microscopy can verify and add a new understanding of the subtle changes of RPH3A localization. 

      We fully agree and have now added super-resolution microscopy data, see Joint Public Review item (i).

      (4) As RAB3A/RAB27A (ΔRAB3A/RAB27A) loses the punctate distribution, please clarify how can it function at the synapse and not act as a KO. Is it sorted to the synapse and how does it is sorted to the synapse? 

      We used lentiviral delivery to introduce our constructs, resulting in the overexpression of ΔRAB3A/RAB27A mutant RPH3A. This overexpression likely compensates for the loss of the punctate distribution of RPH3A, thereby maintaining its limiting effect on DCV exocytosis. It is plausible that under physiological conditions, the mislocalization of RPH3A would lead to increased exocytosis, similar to what we observed in the KO. 

      (5) Is RPH3A expressed in both excitatory and inhibitory neurons? 

      We agree this is an important question. Single cell RNA-seq already suggests the protein is expressed in both, but we nevertheless decided to test expression of RPH3A protein in excitatory and inhibitory neurons, using immunocytochemistry with VGAT and VGLUT as markers in hippocampal and striatal WT neurons. We found that RPH3A is expressed in both VGLUT+ hippocampal neurons and VGAT+ striatal neurons (new Figure S1A, B).  

      (6) The differential use of ChgB and NPY as markers for DCVs should be clarified and compared as these are used at different stages of the manuscript. 

      We have previously addressed the comparison between ChgB and NPY-pHluorin (Persoon et al., 2018). We made sure to indicate this more clearly throughout the manuscript to clarify the use of the two markers. 

      (7) FRAP experiments- A graph describing NPY recovery should be added as a reference to 2H and discussed. 

      We agree. We have made the necessary adjustments (new Figure 2G).

      (8) Figure 2E shows some degree of "facilitation" between the 2 8x50 pulses RPH3A KO neurons. Can the author comment on that? What was the reason for using this dual stimulation protocol? 

      There is indeed some facilitation between the two 8 x 50 pulses in KO neurons and to a lesser extent also in the WT neurons, which we have observed before in WT neurons (Baginska et al., 2023). Baginska et al. (2023) showed recently that different stimulation protocols can influence certain fusion dynamics, like the ratio of persistent and transient events and event duration. We used two different stimulation protocols to thoroughly investigate the effect of RPH3A on exocytosis, and assess the robustness of our findings regarding the number of fusion events. Fusion kinetics was similar in WT an KO neurons for both stimulation protocols (new Figure 2D-F).

      (9) Figure 3 quantifies dendrites length and then moves to quantify both axon and dendrites for the Tetanus toxin experiment. What are the effects of KO on axon length? In the main figures, it is not mentioned but in S3 it seems not to be affected. How does it reconcile with the main conclusion on neurite length? 

      Figure 3H (now Figure 6C) shows the effect of the KO on axon length: the axon length is increased in RPH3A KO neurons compared to WT, similar to dendrite length. Re-expressing RPH3A in KO neurons rescues axonal length to WT levels. In Figure S3, we observe a similar trend as in main Figure 3 (new Figure 6), yet this effect did not reach significance. Based on this, we concluded that neurite length is increased upon RPH3A depletion.

      (10) For lay readers, please explain the total pool and how you measured it. However, see the next comment. 

      We agree. We have now defined this better in the revised manuscript, (p 19, line 524-527 and p 20, line 535-539).

      (11) It is a bit hard to understand if the total number of DCV was increased in the KO and if the pool size was increased and in which figure it is quantified. Some sentences like: "A trend towards a larger intracellular DCV pool in KO compared to WT neurons was observed" do not fit with "No difference in DCV pool size was observed between WT and KO neurons (Figure S2D)" or with "During stronger stimulation (16 bursts of 50 APs at 50 Hz), the total fusion and released fraction of DCVs were increased in KO neurons compared to WT". They are not directly supported, or not related to specific figures. Please indicate if the total DCVs pool, as measured by NH4, was increased and based on that, the fraction of the releasable DCVs following the long stimulation. From Figure 2H, the conclusion is an increase in fusion events. In general, NH4 is not quantified clearly- is it quantified in Figure S2C? And if it is a trend, how can it become significant in Figure 3? 

      We agree there has been some inconsistency in the way we describe the data on the total number of DCVs. We have addressed this in the revised text to ensure better clarity. The total DCV pool measured by NPY-pHluorin was not significantly increased in KO neurons, we see a trend towards a bigger DCV pool in the 2x8 50 Hz stimulation paradigm (now Figure S2C), therefore the released fraction of vesicles is not increased in Figure 1G (now Figure 3G). The number of DCV in Figure 3 (now Figure 5) is based on endogenous ChgB staining and not overexpression like the DCV pool measured by NPY-pHluorin. In Figure 3 (now Figure 5) we show that RPH3A KO neurons have slightly more ChgB+ puncta compared to WT.

      (12) In Figure 3, the quantification is not clear, discrete puncta are not visible but rather a smear of chromogranin staining. How was it quantified? An independent method to count DCV number, size, and distribution like EM is necessary to support and add further understanding. 

      We acknowledge that discrete ChgB puncta are not completely visible in Figure 3 (now Figure 5). Besides the inherent limitation in resolution with confocal imaging, we believe that this is due to ChgB accumulation in the KO neurons, as shown in now Figure 5D. Nonetheless, to address this concern of the reviewer, we have selected other images that represent our dataset (now Figure 5A). Furthermore, the number of ChgB+ DCVs was calculated using SynD software (Schmitz et al., 2011; van de Bospoort et al., 2012) (see previous reply). EM would offer valuable independent confirmation on the total DCV number, size and distribution. However, with the current method we already know that vesicle numbers are at least similar. Does that justify the (major) investment in a quantitative EM study? Moreover, this issue does not affect the central message of the current study.

      (13) Can the author discuss if the source of DCVs that are released at the synapse is similar or different from the source of DCVs fused while neurites elongate? 

      With our current experimental design, we are unable to draw conclusions regarding this aspect. We are not sure how experiments to identify this source (probably the Golgi?) would be crucial to sustain the central message of our study.

      (14) An interesting and related question: what are the expression levels of RPH3A during development and neuronal growth during the nervous system development? 

      While we have not specifically examined the expression levels of RPH3A over development, public databases show that RPH3A expression increases over time in mice, consistent with other synaptic proteins (Blake et al., 2021; Baldarelli et al., 2021; Krupke et al., 2017). We have now added this to the revised manuscript (p 2, line 55-56).

      (15) The conclusion from Figure 4 about the contribution of SNAP25 interaction to RPH3A inhibitory effect is not convincing. The data are scattered and in many neurons, high levels of fusion events were detected. Further or independent experiments are needed to support this conclusion. For example, is the interaction with SNAP25 important for its inhibitory activity in other DCV-releasing systems like adrenal medulla chromaffin cells? 

      We agree that further studies in other DCV-releasing systems like chromaffin cells would provide valuable insight into the role of SNAP25 interaction in RPH3A’s inhibitory effect on exocytosis. However, we believe that starting new series of experiments in another model system is outside of the scope of our current study.

      (16) Furthermore, the number of DCVs in the KO is similar in this experiment, raising some more questions about the quantification of the number of vesicles, that differ, in different sections of the manuscript (points # 10,11). 

      The total DCV pool in the fusion experiments is measured by overexpression NPY-pHluorin, this cannot be directly compared to the number of endogenous ChgB+ DCV in Figure 3 (now Figure 5), see also item (11)

      (17) The statement - "RPH3A is the only negative regulator of DCV" is not completely accurate as other DCV inhibitors like tomosyn were described before. 

      We agree. By this statement, we intend to convey that RPH3A is the only negative regulator of DCVs without substantial impact on synaptic vesicle exocytosis, unlike Tomosyns. We have clarified this in the revised text, (p 15, line 366-367).

      (18) The support for the effect of KO on the "clustering of DCVs" is not convincing. 

      The intensity of endogenous ChgB puncta was decreased in RPH3A KO neurons (now Figure 5E). However, the peak intensity induced by single NPY-pHluorin labeled DCV fusion events (quanta) was unchanged (now Figure S2I). This indicates that the decrease in ChgB puncta intensity must be due to a reduced number of DCVs (quanta) in this specific location. We have interpreted that as ‘clustering’, or maybe ‘accumulation’. However, we only put forward this possibility. We are now more careful in our speculations within the text, (p 11 line 271-277).

      (19) Final sentence: "where RPH3A binds available SNAP25, consequently restricting the assembly of SNARE complexes" should be either demonstrated or rephrased as no effect of trans or general SNARE complex formation is shown. 

      We agree. We have made the necessary adjustments in the text, (p 15, line 387-389).   

      (20) A scheme summarizing RPH3A's interaction with synaptic proteins and its effects on DCVs release, maybe even versus its effects on SVs release, should be considered as a figure or graphic abstract. 

      We have included a working model in Figure 7.  

      (21) Figure 4 logically should come after Figure 2 to summarize the fusion-related chapter before moving to neurite elongation. 

      We have placed Figure 4 after Figure 2 (now Figure 3).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      One important finding of this study is that RPH3A downregulates neuron size, possibly by inhibiting DCV release. Additionally, the authors demonstrated that the number of DCVs is directly proportional to the number of DCVs per µm2, and that RPH3A KO reduces DCV clustering. This conclusion was drawn by comparing ChgB with NPY-pHluorin loading of the DCVs. However, this comparison is not valid as ChgB is expressed at an endogenous level and NPY-pHluorin is over-expressed. In the KO situation where DCV exocytosis is enhanced, the available endogenous ChgB may be depleted faster than the overexpressed NPY-pHluorin. Hoogstraaten et al. should either perform a study in which ChgB is overexpressed to test whether the difference in DCV remains or at least provides an alternative interpretation of their data. 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. The reviewer challenges one or two conclusions in our original manuscript (It is not entirely clear to what exactly “This conclusion” refers): (a) “the number of DCVs is directly proportional to the number of DCVs per µm2”, and (b) “that RPH3A KO reduces DCV clustering”. The reviewer probably means that the number of DCVs per neuron is directly proportional to size of the neuron (a) and states this (these) conclusion(s) are “not valid as ChgB is expressed at an endogenous level and NPY-pHluorin is over-expressed” because “endogenous ChgB may be depleted faster than the overexpressed NPY-pHluorin”. We have three arguments to conclude that faster depletion of ChgB cannot affect these two conclusions: (1) DCVs bud off from the Golgi with newly synthesized (fresh) ChgB. Whether or not a larger fraction of DCVs is released does not influence this initial ChgB loading into DCVs (together with over-expressed NPY-pHluorin); (2) in hippocampal neurons merely 1-6% of the total DCV pool undergoes exocytosis (the current study and also extensively demonstrated in Persoon et al., 2018). RPH3A KO neurons release few percent more of the total DCV pool. Hence, “depletion of ChgB” is only marginally different between experimental groups; and (c) the proposed experiment overexpressing ChgB will not help scrutinize our current conclusions as ChgB overexpression is known to affect DCV biogenesis and the total DCV pool, most likely much more than a few percent more release by RPH3A deficiency.

      Hoogstraaten et al. conducted a thorough analysis of the impact of RPH3A KO and its rescue using various mutants on dendrite and axon length (see Supplementary Figure 3). However, they did not test the effect of the ΔSNAP25 mutant. The authors demonstrated that this mutant is the least efficient in rescuing DCV exocytosis (Figure 4E). Hence the neurons expressing this mutant should have a similar size to the KO neurons. This finding would strongly support the argument that DCV exocytosis regulates neuron size. Otherwise, it would suggest that RPH3A may have a function in regulating exocytosis at the growth cones that is independent of SNAP25. Since the authors most probably have the data that allows them to measure the neuron size (acquired for Supplementary Figure 2), I suggest that they perform the required analysis. 

      We agree this is important and performed new experiments to determine the dendrite length of RPH3A WT, KO and KO neurons expressing the ΔSNAP25 mutant. We observed that the dendrite length of RPH3A KO neurons expressing ΔSNAP25 mutant is indeed similar to KO neurons (new Figure S3C). Although not significant we observe a clear trend towards bigger neurons compared to WT.  This strengthens our conclusion that increased DCV exocytosis contributes to the observed increased neuronal size.

      The authors displayed the result of DCV exocytosis in two ways. One is by showing the number of exocytosis events the other is to display the proportion of DCVs that were secreted. They do the latter by dividing the secreted DCV by the total number of DCVs. These are visualized at the end of the experiment through NH4+ application. While this method works well for synaptic secretion as the marker of SV is localized to the SV membrane and remains at the synapse upon SV exocytosis, it cannot be applied in the same manner when it is the DCV content that is labeled as it is released upon secretion. Hence, the total pool of vesicles should be the number of DCV counted upon NH4+ application in addition to those that are secreted. This way of analyzing the total pool of DCV might also explain the difference in this pool size between KO neurons stimulated two times with 8 stimuli instead of one time with 16 stimuli (Sup Fig 2 C and D). This is an important point as it affects the conclusions drawn from Figure 2. 

      We thank the reviewed for this comment. We agree, and we have made the necessary adjustments throughout the manuscript. 

      The kymogram of DCV exocytic events displayed in Figure 2D shows a majority of persistent (>20s long) events. This is strange as NPY-pHluori corresponds to the released cargo. Previous work using the same labeling and stimulation technique showed that content release occurs in less than 10s (Baginska et al. 2023). The authors should comment on that difference. 

      In Baginska et al. (2023), the authors distinguished between persistent and transient events. The transient events are shorter than 10s for the 2x8 and 16x stimulation paradigms, whereas persistent events can last for more than 10s. In our study we did not make this distinction. However, in response to this reviewer, we have now quantified the fusion duration per cell. These new data show that the mean duration is similar between genotypes for both stimulation paradigms. We have added these new data (new Figure S2D-F).

      In Figures 1D and E, some puncta in the kymogram appeared to persist after bleaching. This raises questions about the effectiveness of the bleaching procedure for the FRAP experiment. 

      The reviewer is correct that NPY-pHluorin in Figure 1E (now Figure 2C) is not fully bleached. NPY-pHluorin was more resistant to bleaching than NPY-mCherry. However, we merely bleached the neurites to facilitate our analysis by reducing fluorescence of the stationary puncta without causing phototoxicity. Some remaining fluorescence after bleaching does not affect our conclusions in any way.

      In the discussion, the paragraph titled "RPH3A does not travel with DCVs in hippocampal neurons" is quite confusing and would benefit from a streamlined explanation. 

      We thank the reviewed for this comment. We made the necessary adjustments to make this paragraph clearer, (p 14, line 339-351).

      First paragraph of page 8 "TeNT expression in KO neurons restored neurite length to WT levels. When compared to KO neurons without TeNT, neurite length was not significantly decreased but displayed a trend towards WT levels (Figure 3G, H)." These two sentences are confusing as they seem contradictory. 

      We agree that this conclusion has been too strong. However, we do not see a contradiction. The significant effect between KO and control neurons on both axon and dendrite length is lost upon TeNT expression (which forms the basis for our conclusions cited by the reviewer, now Figure 6B, C). While the difference between KO neurons +/- TeNT did not reach statistical significance. The (strong) trend is clearly in the same direction. We have refined our original conclusion in the revised manuscript, (p 12, line 304-306).

      The data availability statement is missing. 

      We have added the data availability statement, (p 21, line 571-572).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Common comments

      (1) Significance of zero mutation rate

      Reviewers asked why we included mutation rate even though setting mutation rate to zero doesn’t change results. We think that including non-zero mutation rate makes our results more generalisable, and thus is a strength rather than weakness. To better motivate this choice, we have added a sentence to the beginning of Results:

      (2) Writing the mu=0 case first

      Reviewers suggested that we should first focus on the mu=0 case, and then generalize the result. The suggestions are certainly good. However, given the large amount of work involved in a re-organization, we have decided to adhere to our current narrative. However, we now only include equations where mu=0 in the main text, and have moved the case of nonzero mutation rate to Supplementary Information.

      (3) Making equations more accessible

      We have taken three steps to make equations more readable.

      ● Equations in the main text correspond to the case of zero-mutation rate.

      ● The original section on equation derivation is now in a box in the main text so that readers have the choice of skipping it but interested readers can still get a gist of where equations came from.

      ● We have provided a much more detailed interpretation of the equation (see page 10).

      (4) Validity of the Gaussian approximation

      Reviewers raised concerns about the validity of Gaussian approximation on F frequency𝑓(𝜏). The fact that our calculations closely match simulations suggest that this approximation is reasonable. Still, we added a discussion about the validity of this approximation in Box 1.

      We also added to SI with various cases of initial S and F sizes. This figure shows that when either initial S or initial F is small, the distribution of𝑓(𝜏) is not normal. However, if initial S and F are both on the order of hundreds, then the distribution of 𝑓(𝜏) is approximately Gaussian.

      Public Reviews:

      Summary:

      The authors demonstrate with a simple stochastic model that the initial composition of the community is important in achieving a target frequency during the artificial selection of a community.

      Strengths:

      To my knowledge, the intra-collective selection during artificial selection has not been seriously theoretically considered. However, in many cases, the species dynamics during the incubation of each selection cycle are important and relevant to the outcome of the artificial selection experiment. Stochasticity from birth and death (demographic stochasticity) plays a big role in these species' abundance dynamics. This work uses a simple framework to tackle this idea meticulously.

      This work may or may not be hysteresis (path dependency). If this is true, maybe it would be nice to have a discussion paragraph talking about how this may be the case. Then, this work would even attract the interest of people studying dynamic systems.

      We have added this clarification in the main text:

      “Note that here, selection outcome is path-dependent in the sense of being sensitive to initial conditions. This phenomenon is distinct from hysteresis where path-dependence results from whether a tuning parameter is increased or decreased.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Connecting structure and function

      In typical artificial selection literature, most of them select the community based on collective function. Here in this paper, the authors are selecting a target composition. Although there is a schematic cartoon illustrating the relationship between collective function (y-axis) and the community composition in the main Figure 1, there is no explicit explanation or justification of what may be the origin of this relationship. I think giving the readers a naïve idea about how this structure-function relationship arises in the introduction section would help. This is because the conclusion of this paper is that the intra-collective selection makes it hard to artificially select a community that has an intermediate frequency of f (or s). If there is really evidence or theoretical derivation from this framework that indeed the highest function comes from the intermediate frequency of f, then the impact of this paper would increase because the conclusions of this stochastic model could allude to the reasons for the prevalent failures of artificial selection in literature.

      We have added this to introduction: “This is a common quest: whenever a collective function depends on both populations, collective function is maximised, by definition, at an intermediate frequency (e.g. too little of either population will hamper function [23]).”

      (2) Explain intra-collective and inter-collective selection better for readers.

      The abstract, the introduction, and the result section use these terms or intra-collective and inter-collective selection without much explanation. For the wide readership of eLife, a clear definition in the beginning would help the audience grasp the importance of this paper, because these concepts are at the core of this work.

      This is a great point. We have added in Abstract:

      “Such collective selection is dictated by two opposing forces: during collective maturation, intra-collective selection acts like a waterfall, relentlessly driving the S-frequency to lower values, while during collective reproduction, inter-collective selection resembles a rafter striving to reach the target frequency. Due to this model structure, maintaining a target frequency requires the continued action of inter-collective selection.”

      and in Introduction

      “A selection cycle consists of three stages (Fig. 1). During collective maturation, intra-collective selection favors fast-growing individuals within a collective. At the end of maturation, inter-collective selection acts on collectives and favors those achieving the target composition. Finally during collective reproduction, offspring collectives sample stochastically from the parents, a process dominated by genetic drift.”

      (3) Achievable target frequency strongly depending on the degree of demographic stochasticity.

      I would expect that the experimentalists would find these results interesting and would want to consider these results during their artificial selection experiments. The main Figure 4 indicates that the Newborn size N0 is a very important factor to consider during the artificial selection experiment. This would be equivalent to how much bottleneck is imposed on the artificial selection process in every iteration step (i.e., the ratio of serial dilution experiment). However, with a low population size, all target frequencies can be achieved, and therefore in these regimes, the initial frequency now does not matter much. It would be great for the authors to provide what the N0 parameter actually means during the artificial selection experiments. Maybe relative to some other parameter in the model. I know this could be very hard. But without this, the main result of this paper (initial frequency matters) cannot be taken advantage of by the experimentalists.

      We have added an analytical approximation for N0˘, the Newborn size below which all target frequencies can be achieved in SI.

      Also, we have added lines indicating N0˘ in Fig4a.

      (4) Consideration of environmental stochasticity.

      The success (gold area of Figure 2d) in this framework mainly depends on the size of the demographic stochasticity (birth-only model) during the intra-collective selection. However, during experiments, a lot of environmental stochasticity appears to be occurring during artificial selection. This may be out of the scope of this study. But it would definitely be exciting to see how much environmental stochasticity relative to the demographic stochasticity (variation in the Gaussian distribution of F and S) matters in succeeding in achieving the target composition from artificial selection.

      You are correct that our work considers only demographic stochasticity.

      Indeed, considering other types of stochasticity will be an exciting future research direction. We added in the main text:

      “Overall our model considers mutational stochasticity, as well as demographic stochasticity in terms of stochastic birth and stochastic sampling of a parent collective by offspring collectives. Other types of stochasticity, such as environmental stochasticity and measurement noise, are not considered and require future research.”

      (5) Assumption about mutation rates

      If setting the mutation rates to zero does not change the result of the simulations and the conclusion, what is the purpose of having the mutation rates \mu? Also, is the unidirectional (S -> F -> FF) mutation realistic? I didn't quite understand how the mutations could fit into the story of this paper.

      This is a great point. We have added this to the beginning of Results to better motivate our study:

      “We will start with a complete model where S mutates to F at a nonzero mutation rate µ. We made this choice because it is more challenging to attain or maintain the target frequency when the abundance of fast-growing F is further increased via mutations. This scenario is encountered in biotechnology: an engineered pathway will slow down growth, and breaking the pathway (and thus faster growth) is much easier than the other way around. When the mutation rate is set to zero, the same model can be used to capture collectives of two species with different growth rates.

      See answer on common question 1.

      (6) Minor points

      In Figure 3b, it is not clear to me how the frequency difference for the Intra-collective and the Inter-collective selection is computed.

      We added a description in caption 3b.

      In Figure 5b, the gold region (success) near the FF is not visible. Maybe increase the size of the figure or have an inset for zoom-in. Why is the region not as big as the bottom gold region?

      We increased the resolution of Fig 5b so that the gold region near FF is more visible.

      We have added Fig 5c and the following explanation to the main text:

      “From numerical simulations, we identified two accessible regions: a small region near FF and a band region spanning from S to F (gold in Fig. 5b i). Intuitively, the rate at which FF grows faster than S+F is greater than the rate at which F grows faster than S (see section VIII in Supplementary Information). Thus, the problem can initially be reduced to a two-population problem (i.e. FF versus F+S; Fig. 5c left), and then expanded to a three-population problem (Fig. 5c right).”

      Recommendations For The Authors

      Since the conclusion of the model greatly depends on the noise (variation) of F and S in the Gaussian distribution, it would be nice to have a plot where the y-axis is the variation in terms of frequency and the x-axis is the s_0 or f_0 (frequency). In the plot, I would love to see how the variation in the frequency depends on the initial frequency of S and F. Maybe this is just trivial.

      In the SI, we added Fig6a, as per your request. Previous Fig6 became Fig6b.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The authors provide an analytical framework to model the artificial selection of the composition of communities composed of strains growing at different rates. Their approach takes into account the competition between the targeted selection at the level of the meta-community and the selection that automatically favors fast-growing cells within each replicate community. Their main finding is a tipping point or path-dependence effect, whereby compositions dominated by slow-growing types can only be reached by community-level selection if the community does not start and never crosses into a range of compositions dominated by fast growers during the dynamics.

      These results seem to us both technically correct and interesting. We commend the authors on their efforts to make their work reproducible even when it comes to calculations via extensive appendices, though perhaps a table of contents and a short description of these appendices at the start of SI would help navigate them.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have added a paragraph at the beginning of SI.

      The main limitation in the current form of the article is that it could clarify how its assumptions and findings differ from and improve upon the rest of the literature:

      -  Many studies discuss the interplay between community-level evolution and species- or strain-level evolution. But "evolution" can be a mix of various forces, including selection, drift/randomness, and mutation/innovation.

      - This work's specificity is that it focuses strictly on constant community-level selection versus constant strain-level selection, all other forces being negligible (neither stochasticity nor innovation/mutation matter at either level, as we try to clarify now).

      Note that intra-collective selection is not strictly “constant” in the sense that selection favoring F is the strongest at intermediate F frequency (Fig 3). However, we think that you mean that intra- and inter-collective selection are present in every cycle, and this is correct for our case, and for community selection in general.

      -  Regarding constant community-level selection, it is only briefly noted that "once a target frequency is achieved, inter-collective selection is always required to maintain that frequency due to the fitness difference between the two types" [pg. 3 {section sign}2]. In other words, action from the selector is required indefinitely to maintain the community in the desired state. This assumption is found in a fraction of the literature, but is still worth clarifying from the start as it can inform the practical applicability of the results.

      This is a good point. We have added to abstract:

      “Such collective selection is dictated by two opposing forces: during collective maturation, intra-collective selection acts like a waterfall, relentlessly driving the S-frequency to lower values, while during collective reproduction, inter-collective selection resembles a rafter striving to reach the target frequency. Due to this model structure, maintaining a target frequency requires the continued action of inter-collective selection.”

      - More importantly, strain-level evolution also boils down here to pure selection with a constant target, which is less usual in the relevant literature. Here, (1) drift from limited population sizes is very small, with no meaningful counterbalancing of selection, (2) pure exponential regime with constant fitness, no interactions, no density- or frequency-dependence, (3) there is no innovation in the sense that available types are unchanging through time (no evolution of traits such as growth rate or interactions) and (4) all the results presented seem unchanged when mutation rate mu = 0 (as noted in Appendix III), meaning that the conclusions are not "about" mutation in any meaningful way.

      With regard to point (1), Figure 4a (reproduced below) shows how Newborn size affects the region of achievable targets. Indeed at large Newborn size (e.g. 5000 and above), no target frequency is achievable (since drift is too small to generate sufficient inter-community variation and consequently all communities are dominated by fast-growing F). However at Newborn size of for example 1000, there are two regions of accessible target frequencies. At smaller Newborn size, all target frequencies become achievable due to drift becoming sufficiently strong.

      With regard to points (2) and (3), we have added to Introduction

      “To enable the derivation of an analytical expression, we have made the following simplifications.

      First, growth is always exponential, without complications such as resource limitation, ecological interactions between the two populations, or density-dependent growth. Thus, the exponential growth equation can be used. Second, we consider only two populations (genotypes or species): the fast-growing F population with size F and the slow-growing S population with size S. We do not consider a spectrum of mutants or species, since with more than two populations, an analytical solution becomes very difficult.”

      With regard to point (4), we view this as a strength rather than weakness. We have added the following to the beginning of Results and Discussions:

      “We will start with a complete model where S mutates to F at a nonzero mutation rate µ. We made this choice because it is more challenging to attain or maintain the target frequency when the abundance of fast-growing F is further increased via mutations.”

      “When the mutation rate is set to zero, the same model can be used to capture collectives of two species with different growth rates.”

      See Point 1 of Common comments.

      - Furthermore, the choice of mutation mechanism is peculiar, as it happens only from slow to fast grower: more commonly, one assumes random non-directional mutations, rather than purely directional ones from less fit to fitter (which is more of a "Lamarckian" idea). Given that mutation does not seem to matter here, this choice might create unnecessary opposition from some readers or could be considered as just one possibility among others.

      We have added the following justification:

      “This scenario is encountered in biotechnology: an engineered pathway will slow down growth, and breaking the pathway (and thus faster growth) is much easier than the other way around.”

      It would be helpful to have all these points stated clearly so that it becomes easy to see where this article stands in an abundant literature and contributes to our understanding of multi-level evolution, and why it may have different conclusions or focus than others tackling very similar questions.

      Finally, a microbial context is given to the study, but the assumptions and results are in no way truly tied to that context, so it should be clear that this is just for flavor.

      We have deleted “microbial” from the title, and revised our abstract:

      Recommendations For The Authors

      (1) More details concerning our main remark above:

      - The paragraph discussing refs [24, 33] is not very clear in how they most importantly differ from this study. Our impression is that the resource aspect is not very important for instance, and the main difference is that these other works assume that strains can change in their traits.

      We are fairly sure that resource depletion is important in Rainey group’s study, as the attractor only evolved after both strains grew fast enough to deplete resources by the end of maturation. Indeed, evolution occurred in interaction coefficients which dictate the competition between strains for resources.

      Regardless, you raised an excellent point. As discussed earlier, we have added the following:

      “To enable the derivation of an analytical expression, we have made the following simplifications.

      First, growth is always exponential, without complications such as resource limitation, ecological interactions between the two populations, or density-dependent growth. Thus, the exponential growth equation can be used. Second, we consider only two populations (genotypes or species): the fast-growing F population with size F and the slow-growing S population with size S. We do not consider a spectrum of mutants or species, since with more than two populations, an analytical solution becomes very difficult.”

      - We would advise the main text to focus on mu = 0, and only say in discussion that results can be generalized.

      Your suggestion is certainly good. However, given the large amount of work involved in a reorganisation, we have decided to adhere to our current narrative. However, as discussed earlier, we have added this at the beginning of Results to help orient readers:

      “We will start with a complete model where S mutates to F at a nonzero mutation rate µ. We made this choice because it is more challenging to attain or maintain the target frequency when the abundance of fast-growing F is further increased via mutations.”

      “When the mutation rate is set to zero, the same model can be used to capture collectives of two species with different growth rates.”

      (2) We think the material on pg. 5 "Intra-collective evolution is the fastest at intermediate F frequencies, creating the "waterfall" phenomenon", although interesting, could be presented in a different way. The mathematical details on how to find the probability distribution of the maximum of independent random variables (including Equation 1) will probably be skipped by most of the readers (for experienced theoreticians, it is standard content; for experimentalists, it is not the most relevant), as such I would recommend displacing them to SM and report only the important results.

      This is an excellent suggestion. We have put a sketch of our calculations in a box in the main text to help orient interested readers. As before, details are in SI.

      Similarly, Equations 2, 3, and 4 are hard to read given the large amount of parameters and the low amount of simplification. Although exploring the effect of the different parameters through Figures 3 and 4 is useful, I think the role of the equations should be reconsidered:

      i. Is it possible to rewrite them in terms of effective variables in a more concise way?

      See Point 3 of Common comments.

      ii. Is it possible to present extreme/particular cases in which they are easier to interpret?

      We have focused on the case where the mutation rate is zero. This makes the mathematical expressions much simpler (see above).

      (3) Is it possible to explain more in detail why the distribution of f_k+1 conditional to f_k^* is well approximated by a Gaussian? Also, have you explored to what extent the results would change if this were not true (in light of the few universal classes for the maximum of independent variables)?

      Despite the appeal to the CLT and the histograms in the Appendix suggesting that the distribution looks a bit like a Gaussian at a certain scale, fluctuations on that scale are not necessarily what is relevant for the results - a rapid (and maybe wrong) attempt at a characteristic function calculation suggests that in your case, one does not obtain convergence to Gaussians unless we renormalize by S(t=0) and F(t=0), so it seems there is a justification missing in the text as is for the validity of this approximation (or that it is simply assumed).

      See point 4 of Common comments.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Reviews):

      The authors address the process of community evolution under collective-level selection for a prescribed community composition. They mostly consider communities composed of two types that reproduce at different rates, and that can mutate one into the other. Due to such differences in 'fitness' and to the absence of density dependence, within-collective selection is expected to always favour the fastest grower, but the collective-level selection can oppose this tendency, to a certain extent at least. By approximating the stochastic within-generation dynamics and solving it analytically, the authors show that not only high frequencies of fast growers can be reproducibly achieved, aligned with their fitness advantage. Small target frequencies can also be maintained, provided that the initial proportion of fast growers is sufficiently small. In this regime, similar to the 'stochastic corrector' model, variation upon which selection acts is maintained by a combination of demographic stochasticity and of sampling at reproduction. These two regions of achievable target compositions are separated by a gap, encompassing intermediate frequencies that are only achievable when the bottleneck size is small enough or the number of communities is (disproportionately) larger.

      A similar conclusion, that stochastic fluctuations can maintain the system over evolutionary time far from the prevalence of the faster-growing type, is then confirmed by analyzing a three-species community, suggesting that the qualitative conclusions of this study are generalizable to more complex communities.

      I expect that these results will be of broad interest to the community of researchers who strive to improve community-level selection, but are often limited to numerical explorations, with prohibitive costs for a full characterization of the parameter space of such embedded populations. The realization that not all target collective functions can be as easily achieved and that they should be adapted to the initial conditions and the selection protocol is also a sobering message for designing concrete applications.

      A major strength of this work is that the qualitative behaviour of the system is captured by an analytically solvable approximation so that the extent of the 'forbidden region' can be directly and generically related to the parameters of the selection protocol.

      Thanks so much for these positive comments.

      I however found the description of the results too succinct and I think that more could be done to unpack the mathematical results in a way that is understandable to a broader audience. Moreover, the phenomenon the authors characterize is of purely ecological nature. Here, mutations of the growth rate are, in my understanding, neither necessary (non-trivial equilibria can be maintained also when \mu =0) nor sufficient (community-level selection is necessary to keep the system far from the absorbing state) for the phenomenon described. Calling this dynamics community evolution reflects a widespread ambiguity, and is not ascribable just to this work. I find that here the authors have the opportunity to make their message clearer by focusing on the case where the 'mutation' rate \mu vanishes (Equations 39 & 40 of the SI) - which is more easily interpretable, at least in some limits - while they may leave the more general equations 3 & 4 in the SI.

      See points 1-4 of Common comments.

      Combined with an analysis of the deterministic equations, that capture the possibility of maintaining high frequencies of fast growers, the authors could elucidate the dynamics that are induced by the presence of a second level of selection, and speculate on what would be the result of real open-ended evolution (not encompassed by the simple 'switch mutations' generally considered in evolutionary game theory), for instance discussing the invasibility (or not) of mutant types with slightly different growth rates.

      Indeed, evolution is not restricted to two types. However, our main goal here is to derive an analytical expression, and it was difficult for even two types. For three-type collectives, we had to resort to simulations. Investigating the case where fitness effects of mutations are continuously distributed is beyond the scope of this study.

      The single most important model hypothesis that I would have liked to be discussed further is that the two types do not interact. Species interactions are not only essential to achieve inheritance of composition in the course of evolution but are generally expected to play a key role even on ecological time scales. I hope the authors plan to look at this in future work.

      In our system, the S and F do interact in a competitive fashion: even though S and F are not competing for nutrients (which are always in excess), they are competing for space. This is because a fixed number of cells are transferred to the next cycle. Thus, the presence of F will for example reduce the chance of S being propagated. We have added this clarification to our main text:

      “Note that even though S and F do not compete for nutrients, they compete for space: because the total number of cells transferred to the next cycle is fixed, an overabundance of one population will reduce the likelihood of the other being propagated.”

      Recommendations For The Authors

      I felt the authors could put some additional effort into making their theoretical results meaningful for a population of readers who, though not as highly mathematically educated as they are, can nonetheless appreciate the implications of simple relations or scaling. Below, you find some suggestions:

      (1) In order to make it clear that there is a 'natural' high-frequency equilibrium that can be reached even in the absence of selection, the authors could examine first the dynamics of the deterministic system in the absence of mutations, and use its equilibria to elucidate the combined role of the 'fitness' difference \omega and of the generation duration \tau in setting its value. The fact that these parameters always occur in combination (when there are no mutations) is a general and notable feature of the stochastic model as well. Moreover, this model would justify why you only focus on decreasing the frequency in the new generation.

      Note that the ‘natural’ high-frequency equilibrium in the absence of collective selection is when fast grower F becomes fixed in the population. Following your suggestion, we have introduced two parameters 𝑅τ and 𝑊τ to reflect the coupling between ‘fitness’ and ‘generation duration’:

      (2) Since the phenomenon described in the paper is essentially ecological in nature (as the author states, it does not change significantly if the 'mutation rate' \mu is set to zero), I would put in the main text Equations 39 & 40 of the SI in order to improve intelligibility.

      See Point 2 at the beginning of this letter.

      These equations can be discussed in some detail, especially in the limit of small f^*_k, where I think it is worth discussing the different dependence of the mean and the variance of the frequency distribution on the system's parameters.

      This is a great suggestion. We have added the following:

      “In the limit of small , Equation (3) becomes f while Equation (4) becomes . Thus, both Newborn size (N<sub>0</sub>) and fold-change in F/S during maturation (W<sub>τ</sub>) are important determinants of selection progress.

      (3) I would have appreciated an explanation in words of what are the main conceptual steps involved in attaining Equation 2, the underlying hypotheses (notably on community size and distributions), and the expected limits of validity of the approximation.

      See points 3 and 4 at the beginning of this letter.

      (4) I think that some care needs to be put into explaining where extreme value statistics is used, and why is the median of the conditional distribution the most appropriate statistics to look at for characterizing the evolutionary trajectory (which seems to me mostly reliant on extreme values).

      Great point! We added an explanation of using median value in Box 1.

      and also added figure 7 to explaining it in SI.

      Showing in a figure the different distributions you are considering (for instance, plotting the conditional distribution for one generation in the trajectories displayed in Figure 2) would be useful to understand what information \bar f provides on a sequence of collective generations, where in principle there may be memory effects.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We have added to Fig 2d panel to illustrate the shape and position of F frequency distributions in each step in the first two selection cycles.

      (5) Similarly, I do not understand why selecting the 5% best communities should push the system's evolution towards the high-frequency solution, instead of just slowing down the improvement (unless you are considering the average composition of the top best communities - which should be justified). I think that such sensitivity to the selection intensity should be appropriately referenced and discussed in the main text, as it is a parameter that experimenters are naturally led to manipulate.

      In the main text, we have added this explanation:

      “In contrast with findings from an earlier study [23], choosing top 1 is more effective than the less stringent “choosing top 5%”. In the earlier study, variation in the collective trait is partly due to nonheritable factors such as random fluctuations in Newborn biomass. In that context, a less stringent selection criterion proved more effective, as it helped retain collectives with favorable genotypes that might have exhibited suboptimal collective traits due to unfavorable nonheritable factors. However, since this study excludes nonheritable variations in collective traits, selecting the top 1 collective is more effective than selecting the top 5% (see Fig. 11 in Supplementary Information).”

      (6) Equation 1 could be explained in simpler terms as the product between the probability that one collective reaches the transmitted value times the probability that all others do worse than that. The current formulation is unclear, perhaps just a matter of English formulation.

      We have revised our description to state:

      “Equation (1) can be described as the product between two terms related to probability: (i) describes the probability density that any one of the g Adult collectives achieves f given , and (ii) describes the probability that all other g – 1 collectives achieve frequencies above f and thus not selected.”

      (7) I think that the discussion of the dependence of the boundaries of the 'waterfall' region with the difference in growth rate \omega is important and missing, especially if one wants to consider open-ended evolution of the growth rate - which can occur at steps of different magnitude.

      We added a new chapter and figure in supplementary information on the threshold values when \omega varies. As expected, smaller \omega enlarges the success area.

      We have also added a new figure panel to show how maturation time affects selection efficacy.

      (8) Notations are a bit confusing and could be improved. First of all, in most equations in the main text and SI, what is initially introduced as \omega appears as s. This is confusing because the letter s is also used for the frequency of the slow type.

      The letter S is used to denote an attribute of cells (S cells), the type of cells (Equations 1-3 of the SI) and the number of these cells in the population, sometimes with different meanings in the same sentence. This is confusing, and I suggest referring to slow cells or fast cells instead (or at least to S-cells and F-cells), and keeping S and F as variables for the number of cells of the two types.

      All typos related to the notation have been fixed. We use S and F as types, and S and F (italic) and population numbers.

      (9) On page 3, when introducing the sampling of newborns as ruled by a binomial distribution, the information that you are just transmitting one collective is needed, while it is conveyed later.

      We have added this emphasis:

      “At the end of a cycle, a single Adult with the highest function (with F frequency f closest to the target frequency ) is chosen to reproduce g Newborn collectives each with N<sub>0</sub> cells (‘Selection’ and ’Reproduction’ in Fig. 1).”

      (10) I found that the abstract talks too early about the 'waterfall' phenomenon. As this is a concept introduced here, I suggest the authors first explain what it is, then use the term. It is a useful metaphor, but it should not obscure the more formal achievements of the paper.

      We feel that the “waterfall” analogy offers a gentle helping hand to orient those who have not thought much about the phenomenon. We view abstract as an opportunity to attract readership, and thus the more accessible the better.

      (11) In the SI there are numerous typos and English language issues. I suggest the authors read carefully through it, and add line numbers to the next version so that more detailed feedback is possible.

      Thank you for going through SI. We have gone through the SI, and fixed problems.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors aimed to investigate the contribution of antigenic drift in the HA and NA genes of seasonal influenza A(H3N2) virus to their epidemic dynamics. Analyzing 22 influenza seasons before the COVID-19 pandemic, the study explored various antigenic and genetic markers, comparing them against indicators characterizing the epidemiology of annual outbreaks. The central findings highlight the significant influence of genetic distance on A(H3N2) virus epidemiology and emphasize the role of A(H1N1) virus incidence in shaping A(H3N2) epidemics, suggesting subtype interference as a key factor. 

      Major Strengths: 

      The paper is well-organized, written with clarity, and presents a comprehensive analysis. The study design, incorporating a span of 22 seasons, provides a robust foundation for understanding influenza dynamics. The inclusion of diverse antigenic and genetic markers enhances the depth of the investigation, and the exploration of subtype interference adds valuable insights. 

      Major Weaknesses: 

      While the analysis is thorough, some aspects require deeper interpretation, particularly in the discussion of certain results. Clarity and depth could be improved in the presentation of findings. Furthermore, the evolving dynamics of H3N2 predominance post-2009 need better elucidation.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: This paper aims to achieve a better understanding of how the antigenic or genetic compositions of the dominant influenza A viruses in circulation at a given time are related to key features of seasonal influenza epidemics in the US. To this end, the authors analyze an extensive dataset with a range of statistical, data science and machine learning methods. They find that the key drivers of influenza A epidemiological dynamics are interference between influenza A subtypes and genetic divergence, relative to the previous one or two seasons, in a broader range of antigenically related sites than previously thought. 

      Strengths: A thorough investigation of a large and complex dataset. 

      Weaknesses: The dataset covers a 21 year period which is substantial by epidemiological standards, but quite small from a statistical or machine learning perspective. In particular, it was not possible to follow the usual process and test predictive performance of the random forest model with an independent dataset. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This paper explores the relationships among evolutionary and epidemiological quantities in influenza, using a wide range of datasets and features, and using both correlations and random forests to examine, primarily, what are the drivers of influenza epidemics. It's a strong paper representing a thorough and fascinating exploration of potential drivers, and it makes a trove of relevant data readily available to the community. 

      Strengths: 

      This paper makes links between epidemiological and evolutionary data for influenza. Placing each in the context of the other is crucial for understanding influenza dynamics and evolution and this paper does a thorough job of this, with many analyses and nuances. The results on the extent to which evolutionary factors relate to epidemic burden, and on interference among influenza types, are particularly interesting. The github repository associated with the paper is clear, comprehensive, and well-documented. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The format of the results section can be hard to follow, and we suggest improving readability by restructuring and simplifying in some areas. There are a range of choices made about data preparation and scaling; the authors could explore sensitivity of the results to some of these. 

      Response to public reviews

      We appreciate the positive comments from the reviewers and have implemented or responded to all of the reviewers’ recommendations.

      In response to Reviewer 1, we expand on the potential drivers and biological implications of the findings pointed out in their specific recommendations. For example, we now explicitly mention that antigenically distinct 3c.2a and 3c.3a viruses began to co-circulate in 2012 and underwent further diversification during subsequent seasons in our study. We note that, after the 2009 A(H1N1) pandemic, the mean fraction of influenza positive cases typed as A(H3N2) in A(H3N2) dominant seasons is lower compared to A(H3N2) dominant seasons prior to 2009. We propose that the weakening of A(H3N2) predominance may be linked to the diversification of A(H3N2) viruses during the 2010s, wherein multiple antigenically distinct clades with similar fitness circulated in each season, as opposed to a single variant with high fitness.

      In response to Reviewer 2, we agree that it would be ideal and best practice to measure model performance with an independent test set, but our dataset includes only ~20 seasons. Predictions of independent test sets of 2-3 seasons had unstable performance, which indicates we do not have sufficient power to measure model performance with a test set this small. In the revised manuscript, we provide more justification and clarification of our methodology. Instead of testing model performance on an independent test set, we use leave-one-season-out cross-validation to train models and measure model performance, wherein each “assessment” set contains one season of data (predicted by the model), and the corresponding “analysis” set (“fold”) contains the remaining seasons. This approach is roughly analogous to splitting data into training and test sets, but all seasons are used at some point in the training of the model (Kuhn & Johnson, 2019).

      In response to Reviewer 3, we follow the reviewer’s advice to put the Methods section before the Results section. Concerning Reviewer 3’s question about the sensitivity of our results to data preparation and rescaling, we provide more justification and clarification of our methodology in the revised manuscript. In our study, we adjust influenza type/subtype incidences for differences in reporting between the pre- and post-2009 pandemic periods and across HHS regions. We adjust for differences in reporting between the pre- and post-2009 periods because the US CDC and WHO increased laboratory testing capacity in response to the 2009 A(H1N1) pandemic, which led to substantial, long-lasting improvements to influenza surveillance that are still in place today. Figure 1 - figure supplement 2 shows systematic increases in influenza test volume in all HHS regions after the 2009 pandemic. Given the substantial increase in test volume after 2009, we opted to keep the time trend adjustment for the pre- and post-2009 pandemic periods and evaluate whether adjusting for regional reporting differences affects our results. When estimating univariate correlations between various A(H3N2) epidemic metrics and evolutionary indicators, we found qualitatively equivalent results when adjusting for both pre- and post-2009 pandemic reporting and regional reporting versus only adjusting for the pre- and post-2009 pandemic reporting.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Specific comments: 

      (1) Line 155-156. Request for a reference for: "Given that protective immunity wanes after 1-4 years" 

      We now include two references (He et al. 2015 and Wraith et al. 2022), which were cited at the beginning of the introduction when referring to the duration of protective immunity for antigenically homologous viruses. (Lines 640-642 in revised manuscript)

      (2) Line 162-163: Request a further explanation of the negative correlation between seasonal diversity of HA and NA LBI values and NA epitope distance. Clarify biological implications to aid reader understanding. 

      In the revised manuscript we expand on the biological implications of A(H3N2) virus populations characterized by high antigenic novelty and low LBI diversity.

      Lines 649-653:

      “The seasonal diversity of HA and NA LBI values was negatively correlated with NA epitope distance (Figure 2 – figure supplements 5 – 6), with high antigenic novelty coinciding with low genealogical diversity. This association suggests that selective sweeps tend to follow the emergence of drifted variants with high fitness, resulting in seasons dominated by a single A(H3N2) variant rather than multiple cocirculating clades.”

      (3) Figure S3 legend t-2 may be marked as t-1. 

      Thank you for catching this. We have fixed this typo. Note: Figure S3 is now Figure 2 – figure supplement 5.

      (4) Lines 201-214. The key takeaways from the analysis of subtype dominance are ultimately not clear. It also misses the underlying dynamics that H3N2 predominance following an evolutionary change has waned since 2009.

      In the revised manuscript we elaborate on key takeaways concerning the relationship between antigenic drift and A(H3N2) dominance. We also add a caveat noting that A(H3N2) predominance is weaker during the post-2009 period, which may be linked to the diversification of A(H3N2) lineages after 2012. We do not know of a reference that links the diversification of A(H3N2) viruses in the 2010s to a particular evolutionary change. Therefore, we do not attribute the diversification of A(H3N2) viruses to a specific evolutionary change in A(H3N2) variants circulating at the time (A/Perth/16/2009-like strains (PE09)). Instead, we allude to the potential role of A(H3N2) diversification in creating multiple co-circulating lineages that may have less of a fitness advantage.

      Lines 681-703:

      “We explored whether evolutionary changes in A(H3N2) may predispose this subtype to dominate influenza virus circulation in a given season. A(H3N2) subtype dominance – the proportion of influenza positive samples typed as A(H3N2) – increased with H3 epitope distance (t – 2) (R2 = 0.32, P = 0.05) and N2 epitope distance (t – 1) (R2 = 0.34, P = 0.03) (regression results: Figure 4; Spearman correlations: Figure 3 – figure supplement 1). Figure 4 illustrates this relationship at the regional level across two seasons in which A(H3N2) was nationally dominant, but where antigenic change differed. In 2003-2004, we observed widespread dominance of A(H3N2) viruses after the emergence of the novel antigenic cluster, FU02 (A/Fujian/411/2002-like strains). In contrast, there was substantial regional heterogeneity in subtype circulation during 2007-2008, a season in which A(H3N2) viruses were antigenically similar to those circulating in the previous season. Patterns in type/subtype circulation across all influenza seasons in our study period are shown in Figure 4 – figure supplement 1. As observed for the 2003-2004 season, widespread A(H3N2) dominance tended to coincide with major antigenic transitions (e.g.,

      A/Sydney/5/1997 (SY97) seasons, 1997-1998 to 1999-2000; A/California/7/2004 (CA04) season, 20042005), though this was not universally the case (e.g., A/Perth/16/2009 (PE09) season, 2010-2011). 

      After the 2009 A(H1N1) pandemic, A(H3N2) dominant seasons still occurred more frequently than A(H1N1) dominant seasons, but the mean fraction of influenza positive cases typed as A(H3N2) in A(H3N2) dominant seasons was lower compared to A(H3N2) dominant seasons prior to 2009. Antigenically distinct 3c.2a and 3c.3a viruses began to co-circulate in 2012 and underwent further diversification during subsequent seasons in our study (https://nextstrain.org/seasonal-

      flu/h3n2/ha/12y@2024-05-13) (Dhanasekaran et al., 2022; Huddleston et al., 2020; Yan et al., 2019). The decline in A(H3N2) predominance during the post-2009 period may be linked to the genetic and antigenic diversification of A(H3N2) viruses, wherein multiple lineages with similar fitness co-circulated in each season.”

      (5) Line 253-255: It would be beneficial to provide a more detailed interpretation of the statement that "pre-2009 seasonal A(H1N1) viruses may limit the circulation of A(H3N2) viruses to a greater extent than A(H1N1)pdm09 viruses." Elaborate on the cause-and-effect relationship within this statement.

      In the revised manuscript we suggest that seasonal A(H1N1) viruses may interfere with the circulation of A(H3N2) viruses to a greater extent than A(H1N1)pdm09 viruses, because seasonal A(H1N1) viruses and A(H3N2) are more closely related, and thus may elicit stronger cross-reactive T cell responses.

      Lines 738-745:

      “The internal gene segments NS, M, NP, PA, and PB2 of A(H3N2) viruses and pre-2009 seasonal A(H1N1) viruses share a common ancestor (Webster et al., 1992) whereas A(H1N1)pdm09 viruses have a combination of gene segments derived from swine and avian reservoirs that were not reported prior to the 2009 pandemic (Garten et al., 2009; Smith et al., 2009). Non-glycoprotein genes are highly conserved between influenza A viruses and elicit cross-reactive antibody and T cell responses (Grebe et al., 2008; Sridhar, 2016). Because pre-2009 seasonal A(H1N1) viruses and A(H3N2) are more closely related, we hypothesized that seasonal A(H1N1) viruses could potentially limit the circulation of A(H3N2) viruses to a greater extent than A(H1N1)pdm09 viruses, due to greater T cell-mediated cross-protective immunity.”

      (6) In the results section, many statements report statistical results of correlation analyses. Consider providing further interpretations of these results, such as the implications of nonsignificant correlations and how they support or contradict the hypothesis or previous studies. For example, the statement on line 248 regarding the lack of significant correlation between influenza B epidemic size and A(H3N2) epidemic metrics would benefit from additional discussion on what this non-significant correlation signifies and how it relates to the hypothesis or previous research. 

      In the Discussion section, we suggest that the lack of an association between influenza B circulation and A(H3N2) epidemic metrics is due to few T and B cell epitopes shared between influenza A and B viruses (Terajima et al., 2013).

      Lines 1005-1007 in revised manuscript (Lines 513-515 in original manuscript): 

      “Overall, we did not find any indication that influenza B incidence affects A(H3N2) epidemic burden or timing, which is not unexpected, given that few T and B cell epitopes are shared between the two virus types (Terajima et al., 2013).”

      Minor comments: 

      (1) Line 116-122: Include a summary statistical description of all collected data sets, detailing the number of HA and NA sequence data and their sources. Briefly describe subsampled data sets, specifying preferences (e.g., the number of HA or NA sequence data collected from each region). 

      In our revised manuscript we now include supplementary tables that summarize the number of A/H3 and

      A/N2 sequences in each subsampled dataset, aggregated by world region, for all seasons combined (Figure 2 - table supplements 1 - 2). We also include supplementary figures showing the number of sequences collected in each month and each season in North America versus the other nine world regions combined (Figure 2 - figure supplements 1 - 2). Subsampled datasets are plotted individually in the figures below but individual time series are difficult to discern due to minor differences in sequence counts across the datasets.

      (2) Figure 7A: Due to space limitations, consider rounding numbers on the x-axis to whole numbers for clarity. 

      Thank you for this suggestion. In the revised manuscript we round numbers in the axes of Figure 7A (Figure 9A in the revised manuscript) so that the axes are less crowded.

      (3) Figure 4C & Figure 4D: Note that Region 10 (purple) data were unavailable for seasons before 2009 (lines 1483-1484). Label each region on the map with its respective region number (1 to 10) and indicate this in the legend for easy identification. 

      In our original submission, the legend for Figure 4 included “Data for Region 10 (purple) were not available for seasons prior to 2009” at the end of the caption. We have moved this sentence, as well as other descriptions that apply to both C and D, so that they follow the sentence “C-D. Regional patterns of influenza type and subtype incidence during two seasons when A(H3N2) was nationally dominant.”

      In our revised manuscript, Figure 4, and Figure 4 - figure supplement 1 (Figure S10 in original submission) include labels for each HHS region.

      We did not receive specific recommendations from Reviewer #2. However, our responses to Reviewer #3 addresses the study’s weaknesses mentioned by Reviewer #2.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      This paper explores the relationships among evolutionary and epidemiological quantities in influenza, using a wide range of datasets and features, and using both correlations and random forests to examine, primarily, what are the drivers of influenza epidemics. 

      This is a work horse of paper, in the volumes of data that are analyzed and the extensive analysis that is done. The data that are provided are a treasure trove resource for influenza modelers and for anyone interested in seeing influenza surveillance data in the context of evolution, and evolutionary information in the context of epidemiology. 

      L53 - end of sentence "and antigenic drift": not sure this fits, explain? I thought this sentence was in contrast to antigenic drift.

      Thank you for catching this. We did not intend to include “and antigenic drift” at the end of this sentence and have removed it (Line 59).

      Para around L115: would using primarily US data be a limitation, because it's global immunity that shapes success of strains? Or, how much does each country's immunity and vaccination and so on actually shape what strains succeed there, compared to global/international factors? 

      The HA and NA phylogenetic trees in our study are enriched with US sequences because our study focuses on epidemiological dynamics in the US, and we wanted to prioritize A(H3N2) viruses that the US human population encountered in each season. We agree with the reviewer that the world population may be the right scale to understand how immunity, acquired by vaccination or natural infection, may shape the emergence and success of new lineages that will go on to circulate globally. However, our study assesses the overall impact of antigenic drift on regional A(H3N2) epidemic dynamics in the US. In other words, our driving question is whether we can predict the population-level impact of an A(H3N2) variant in the US, conditional on this particular lineage having established in the US and circulating at relatively high levels. We do not assess the global or population-level factors that may influence which A(H3N2) virus lineages are successful in a given location or season.

      We have added a clarifying sentence to the end of the Introduction to narrow the scope of the paper for the reader. 

      Line 114-116: “Rather than characterize in situ evolution of A(H3N2) lineages circulating in the U.S., we study the epidemiological impacts of antigenic drift once A(H3N2) variants have arrived on U.S. soil and managed to establish and circulate at relatively high levels.”

      In the Results section, I found the format hard to follow, because of the extensive methodological details, numbers with CIs and long sentences. Sentences sometimes included the question, definitions of variables, and lists. For example at line 215 we have: "Next, we tested for associations between A(H3N2) evolution and epidemic timing, including onset week, defined as the winter changepoint in incidence [16], and peak week, defined as the first week of maximum incidence; spatiotemporal synchrony, measured as the variation (standard deviation, s.d.) in regional onset and peak timing; and epidemic speed, including seasonal duration and the number of weeks from onset to peak (Table 2, Figure S11)". I would suggest putting the methods section first, using shorter sentences, separating lists from the question being asked, and stating what was found without also putting in all the extra detail. Putting the methods section before the results might reduce the sense that you have to explain what you did and how in the results section too.

      Thank you for suggesting how to improve the readability of the Results section. In the revised manuscript, we follow the reviewer’s advice to put the Methods section before the Results section. Although eLife formatting requirements specify the order: Introduction, Results, Discussion, and Methods, the journal allows for the Methods section to follow the Introduction when it makes sense to do so. We agree with the reviewer that putting the Methods section before the Results section makes our results easier to follow because we no longer need to introduce methodological details at the beginning of each set of results.

      L285 in the RF you remove variables without significant correlations with the target variables, but isn't one of the aims of RF to uncover relationships where a correlation might not be evident, and in part to reveal combinations of features that give the targeted outcome? Also with the RF, I am a bit concerned that you could not use the leave-one-out approach because it was "unstable" - presumably that means that you obtain quite different results if you leave out a season. How robust are these results, and what are the most sensitive aspects? Are the same variables typically high in importance if you leave out a season, for example? What does the scatterplot of observed vs predicted epidemic size (as in Fig 7) look like if each prediction is for the one that was left out (i.e. from a model trained on all the rest)? In my experience, where the RF is "unstable", that can look pretty terrible even if the model trained on all the data looks great (as does Figure 7). In any case I think it's worth discussing sensitivity.

      (1) In response to the reviewer’s first question, we explain our rationale for not including all candidate predictors in random forest and penalized regression models. 

      Models trained with different combinations of predictors can have similar performance, and these combinations of predictors can include variables that do not necessarily have strong univariate associations with the target variable. The performance of random forest and LASSO regression models are not sensitive to redundant or irrelevant predictors (see Figure 10.2 in Kuhn & Johnson, 2019). However,  if our goal is variable selection rather than strictly model performance, it is considered best practice to remove collinear, redundant, and/or irrelevant variables prior to training models (see section 11.3 in Kuhn & Johnson, 2019). In both random forest and LASSO regression models, if there are highly collinear variables that are useful for predicting the target variable, the predictor chosen by the model becomes a random selection. In random forest models, these highly collinear variables will be used in all splits across the forest of decision trees, and this redundancy dilutes variable importance scores. Thus, failing to minimize multicollinearity prior to model training could result in some variables having low rankings and the appearance of being unimportant, because their importance scores are overshadowed by those of the highly correlated variables. Our rationale for preprocessing predictor data follows the philosophy of Kuhn & Johnson, 2019, who recommend including the minimum possible set of variables that does not compromise model performance. Even if a particular model is insensitive to extra predictors, Kuhn and John explain that “removing predictors can reduce the cost of acquiring data or improve the throughput of the software used to make predictions.”

      In the revised manuscript, we include more details about our steps for preprocessing predictor data. We also follow the reviewer’s suggestion to include all evolutionary predictors in variable selection analyses, regardless of whether they have strong univariate correlations with target outcomes, because the performance of random forest and LASSO regression models is not affected by redundant predictors. 

      Including additional predictors in our variable selection analyses does not change our conclusions. As reported in our original manuscript, predictors with strong univariate correlations with various epidemic metrics were the highest ranked features in both random forest and LASSO regression models.

      Lines 523-563:

      “Preprocessing of predictor data: The starting set of candidate predictors included all viral fitness metrics: genetic and antigenic distances between current and previously circulating strains and the standard deviation and Shannon diversity of H3 and N2 LBI values in the current season. To account for potential type or subtype interference, we included A(H1N1) or A(H1N1)pdm09 epidemic size and B epidemic size in the current and prior season and the dominant IAV subtype in the prior season (Lee et al., 2018). We included A(H3N2) epidemic size in the prior season as a proxy for prior natural immunity to A(H3N2). To account for vaccine-induced immunity, we considered four categories of predictors and included estimates for the current and prior seasons: national vaccination coverage among adults (18-49 years coverage × ≥ 65 years coverage), adjusted A(H3N2) vaccine effectiveness (VE), a combined metric of vaccination coverage and A(H3N2) VE (18-49 years coverage × ≥ 65 years coverage × VE), and H3 and N2 epitope distances between naturally circulating A(H3N2) viruses and the U.S. A(H3N2) vaccine strain in each season. We could not include a predictor for vaccination coverage in children or consider cladespecific VE estimates, because these data were not available for most seasons in our study.

      Random forest and LASSO regression models are not sensitive to redundant (highly collinear) features (Kuhn & Johnson, 2019), but we chose to downsize the original set of candidate predictors to minimize the impact of multicollinearity on variable importance scores. For both types of models, if there are highly collinear variables that are useful for predicting the target variable, the predictor chosen by the model becomes a random selection (Kuhn & Johnson, 2019). In random forest models, these highly collinear variables will be used in all splits across the forest of decision trees, and this redundancy dilutes variable importance scores (Kuhn & Johnson, 2019). We first confirmed that none of the candidate predictors had zero variance or near-zero variance. Because seasonal lags of each viral fitness metric are highly collinear, we included only one lag of each evolutionary predictor, with a preference for the lag that had the strongest univariate correlations with various epidemic metrics. We checked for multicollinearity among the remaining predictors by examining Spearman’s rank correlation coefficients between all pairs of predictors. If a particular pair of predictors was highly correlated (Spearman’s 𝜌 > 0.8), we retained only one predictor from that pair, with a preference for the predictor that had the strongest univariate correlations with various epidemic metrics. Lastly, we performed QR decomposition of the matrix of remaining predictors to determine if the matrix is full rank and identify sets of columns involved in linear dependencies. This step did not eliminate any additional predictors, given that we had already removed pairs of highly collinear variables based on Spearman correlation coefficients. 

      After these preprocessing steps, our final set of model predictors included 21 variables, including 8 viral evolutionary indicators: H3 epitope distance (t – 2), HI log2 titer distance (t – 2), H3 RBS distance (t – 2), H3 non-epitope distance (t – 2), N2 epitope distance (t – 1), N2 non-epitope distance (t – 1), and H3 and N2 LBI diversity (s.d.) in the current season; 6 proxies for type/subtype interference and prior immunity:

      A(H1N1) and B epidemic sizes in the current and prior season, A(H3N2) epidemic size in the prior season, and the dominant IAV subtype in the prior season; and 7 proxies for vaccine-induced immunity: A(H3N2) VE in the current and prior season, H3 and N2 epitope distances between circulating strains and the vaccine strain in each season, the combined metric of adult vaccination coverage × VE in the current and prior season, and adult vaccination coverage in the prior season.”

      (2) Next, we clarify our model training methodology to address the reviewer’s second point about using a leave-one-out cross-validation approach.

      We believe the reviewer is mistaken; we use a leave-one-season-out validation approach which lends some robustness to the predictions. In our original submission, we stated “We created each forest by generating 3,000 regression trees from 10 repeats of a leave-one-season-out (jackknife) cross-validated sample of the data. Due to the small size of our dataset, evaluating the predictive accuracy of random forest models on a quasi-independent test set produced unstable estimates.” (Lines 813-816 in the original manuscript)

      To clarify, we use leave-one-season-out cross-validation to train models and measure model performance, wherein each “assessment” set contains one season of data (predicted by the model), and the corresponding “analysis” set (“fold”) contains the remaining seasons. This approach is roughly analogous to splitting data into training and test sets, but all seasons are used at some point in the training of the model (see Section 3.4 in Kuhn & Johnson, 2019). To reduce noise, we generated 10 bootstrap resamples of each fold and averaged the RMSE and R2 values of model predictions from resamples. 

      Although it would be ideal and best practice to measure model performance with an independent test set, our dataset includes only ~20 seasons. We found that predictions of independent test sets of 2-3 seasons had unstable performance, which indicates we do not have sufficient power to measure model performance with a test set this small. Further, we suspect that large antigenic jumps in a small subset of seasons further contribute to variation in prediction accuracy across randomly selected test sets. Our rationale for using cross-validation instead of an independent test set is best described in Section 4.3 of Kuhn and Johnson’s book “Applied Predictive Modeling” (Kuhn & Johnson, 2013):

      “When the number of samples is not large, a strong case can be made that a test set should be avoided because every sample may be needed for model building. Additionally, the size of the test set may not have sufficient power or precision to make reasonable judgements. Several researchers (Molinaro 2005; Martin and Hirschberg 1996; Hawkins et al. 2003) show that validation using a single test set can be a poor choice. Hawkins et al. (2003) concisely summarize this point: “holdout samples of tolerable size [...] do not match the cross-validation itself for reliability in assessing model fit and are hard to motivate. “Resampling methods, such as cross-validation, can be used to produce appropriate estimates of model performance using the training set. These are discussed in length in Sect.4.4. Although resampling techniques can be misapplied, such as the example shown in Ambroise and McLachlan (2002), they often produce performance estimates superior to a single test set because they evaluate many alternate versions of the data.”

      In our revised manuscript, we provide additional clarification of our methods (Lines 574-590):

      “We created each forest by generating 3,000 regression trees. To determine the best performing model for each epidemic metric, we used leave-one-season-out (jackknife) cross-validation to train models and measure model performance, wherein each “assessment” set is one season of data predicted by the model, and the corresponding “analysis” set contains the remaining seasons. This approach is roughly analogous to splitting data into training and test sets, but all seasons are used at some point in the training of each model (Kuhn & Johnson, 2019). Due to the small size of our dataset (~20 seasons), evaluating the predictive accuracy of random forest models on a quasi-independent test set of 2-3 seasons produced unstable estimates. Instead of testing model performance on an independent test set, we generated 10 bootstrap resamples (“repeats”) of each analysis set (“fold”) and averaged the predictions of models trained on resamples (Kuhn & Johnson, 2013, 2019). For each epidemic metric, we report the mean root mean squared error (RMSE) and R2 of predictions from the best tuned model. We used permutation importance (N = 50 permutations) to estimate the relative importance of each predictor in determining target outcomes. Permutation importance is the decrease in prediction accuracy when a single feature (predictor) is randomly permuted, with larger values indicating more important variables. Because many features were collinear, we used conditional permutation importance to compute feature importance scores, rather than the standard marginal procedure (Altmann et al., 2010; Debeer & Strobl, 2020; Strobl et al., 2008; Strobl et al., 2007).”

      (3) In response to the reviewer’s question about the sensitivity of results when one season is left out, we clarify that the variable importance scores in Figure 8 and model predictions in Figure 9 were generated by models tuned using leave-one-season-out cross-validation. 

      As explained above, in our leave-one-season-out cross-validation approach, each “assessment” set contains one season of data predicted by the model, and the corresponding “analysis” set (“fold”) contains the remaining seasons. We generated predictions of epidemic metrics and variable importance rankings by averaging the model output of 10 bootstrap resamples of each cross-validation fold. 

      In Lines 791-806, we describe which epidemic metrics have the highest prediction accuracy and report that random forest models tend to underpredict most epidemic metrics in seasons with high antigenic novelty:

      “We measured correlations between observed values and model-predicted values at the HHS region level. Among the various epidemic metrics, random forest models produced the most accurate predictions of A(H3N2) subtype dominance (Spearman’s 𝜌 = 0.95, regional range = 0.85 – 0.97), peak incidence (𝜌 = 0.91, regional range = 0.72 – 0.95), and epidemic size (𝜌 = 0.9, regional range = 0.74 – 0.95), while predictions of effective 𝑅! and epidemic intensity were less accurate (𝜌 = 0.81, regional range = 0.65 – 0.91; 𝜌 = 0.78, regional range = 0.63 – 0.92, respectively) (Figure 9). Random forest models tended to underpredict most epidemic targets in seasons with substantial H3 antigenic transitions, in particular the SY97 cluster seasons (1998-1999, 1999-2000) and the FU02 cluster season (2003-2004) (Figure 9). 

      For epidemic size and peak incidence, seasonal predictive error – the root-mean-square error (RMSE) across all regional predictions in a season – increased with H3 epitope distance (epidemic size, Spearman’s 𝜌 = 0.51, P = 0.02; peak incidence, 𝜌 = 0.63, P = 0.004) and N2 epitope distance (epidemic size, 𝜌 = 0.48, P = 0.04; peak incidence, 𝜌 = 0.48, P = 0.03) (Figure 9 – figure supplements 1 – 2). For models of epidemic intensity, seasonal RMSE increased with N2 epitope distance (𝜌 = 0.64, P = 0.004) but not H3 epitope distance (𝜌 = 0.06, P = 0.8) (Figure 9 – figure supplements 1 – 2). Seasonal RMSE of effective 𝑅! and subtype dominance predictions did not correlate with H3 or N2 epitope distance (Figure 9 – figure supplements 1 – 2).”

      I think the competition (interference) results are really interesting, perhaps among the most interesting aspects of this work. 

      Thank you! We agree that our finding that subtype interference has a greater impact than viral evolution on A(H3N2) epidemics is one of the more interesting results in the study.

      Have you seen the paper by Barrat-Charlaix et al? They found that LBI was not good predicting frequency dynamics (see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33749787/); instead, LBI was high for sequences like the consensus sequence, which was near to future strains. LBI also was not positively correlated with epidemic impact in Figure S7.

      The local branching index (LBI) measures the rate of recent phylogenetic branching and approximates relative fitness among viral clades, with high LBI values representing greater fitness (Neher et al. 2014).

      Two of this study’s co-authors (John Huddleston and Trevor Bedford) are also co-authors of BarratCharlaix et al. 2021. Barrat-Charlaix et al. 2021 assessed the performance of LBI in predicting the frequency dynamics and fixation of individual amino acid substitutions in A(H3N2) viruses. Our study is not focused on predicting the future success of A(H3N2) clades or the frequency dynamics or probability of fixation of individual substitutions. Instead, we use the standard deviation and Shannon diversity of LBI values in each season as a proxy for genealogical (clade-level) diversity. We find that, at a seasonal level, low diversity of H3 or N2 LBI values in the current season correlates with greater epidemic intensity, higher transmission rates, and shorter seasonal duration.

      In the Discussion we provide an explanation for these correlation results (Lines 848-857): 

      “The local branching index (LBI) is traditionally used to predict the success of individual clades, with high LBI values indicating high viral fitness (Huddleston et al., 2020; Neher et al., 2014). In our epidemiological analysis, low diversity of H3 or N2 LBI in the current season correlated with greater epidemic intensity, higher transmission rates, and shorter seasonal duration. These associations suggest that low LBI diversity is indicative of a rapid selective sweep by one successful clade, while high LBI diversity is indicative of multiple co-circulating clades with variable seeding and establishment times over the course of an epidemic. A caveat is that LBI estimation is more sensitive to sequence sub-sampling schemes than strain-level measures. If an epidemic is short and intense (e.g., 1-2 months), a phylogenetic tree with our sub-sampling scheme (50 sequences per month) may not incorporate enough sequences to capture the true diversity of LBI values in that season.”

      Figure 1 - LBI goes up over time. Is that partly to do with sampling? Overall how do higher sampling volumes in later years impact this analysis? (though you choose a fixed number of sequences so I guess you downsample to cope with that). I note that LBI is likely to be sensitive to sequencing density. 

      Thank you for pointing this out. We realized that increasing LBI Shannon diversity over the course of the study period was indeed an artefact of increasing sequence volume over time. Our sequence subsampling scheme involves selecting a random sample of up to 50 viruses per month, with up to 25 viruses selected from North America (if available) and the remaining sequences evenly divided across nine other global regions. In early seasons of the study (late 1990s/early 2000s), sampling was often too sparse to meet the 25 viruses/month threshold for North America or for the other global regions combined (H3: Figure 2 - figure supplement 1; N2: Figure 2 - figure supplement 2). Ecological diversity metrics are sensitive to sample size, which explains why LBI Shannon diversity appeared to steadily increase over time in our original submission. In our revised manuscript, we correct for uneven sample sizes across seasons before estimating Shannon diversity and clarify our methodology. 

      Lines 443-482: 

      “Clade growth: The local branching index (LBI) measures the relative fitness of co-circulating clades, with high LBI values indicating recent rapid phylogenetic branching (Huddleston et al., 2020; Neher et al., 2014). To calculate LBI for each H3 and N2 sequence, we applied the LBI heuristic algorithm as originally described by Neher et al., 2014 to H3 and N2 phylogenetic trees, respectively. We set the neighborhood parameter 𝜏 to 0.4 and only considered viruses sampled between the current season 𝑡 and the previous season 𝑡 – 1 as contributing to recent clade growth in the current season 𝑡.  

      Variation in the phylogenetic branching rates of co-circulating A(H3N2) clades may affect the magnitude, intensity, onset, or duration of seasonal epidemics. For example, we expected that seasons dominated by a single variant with high fitness might have different epidemiological dynamics than seasons with multiple co-circulating clades with varying seeding and establishment times. We measured the diversity of clade growth rates of viruses circulating in each season by measuring the standard deviation (s.d.) and Shannon diversity of LBI values in each season. Given that LBI measures relative fitness among cocirculating clades, we did not compare overall clade growth rates (e.g., mean LBI) across seasons.

      Each season’s distribution of LBI values is right-skewed and does not follow a normal distribution. We therefore bootstrapped the LBI values of each season in each replicate dataset 1000 times (1000 samples with replacement) and estimated the seasonal standard deviation of LBI from resamples, rather than directly from observed LBI values. We also tested the seasonal standard deviation of LBI from log transformed LBI values, which produced qualitatively equivalent results to bootstrapped LBI values in downstream analyses.

      As an alternative measure of seasonal LBI diversity, we binned raw H3 and N2 LBI values into categories based on their integer values (e.g., an LBI value of 0.5 is assigned to the (0,1] bin) and estimated the exponential of the Shannon entropy (Shannon diversity) of LBI categories (Hill, 1973; Shannon, 1948). The Shannon diversity of LBI considers both the richness and relative abundance of viral clades with different growth rates in each season and is calculated as follows:  

      where 𝑞 𝐷 is the effective number of categories or Hill numbers of order 𝑞 (here, clades with different growth rates), with 𝑞 defining the sensitivity of the true diversity to rare versus abundant categories (Hill,

      1973). exp is the exponential function, 𝑝# is the proportion of LBI values belonging to the 𝑖th category, and 𝑅 is richness (the total number of categories). Shannon diversity 1𝐷 (𝑞 = 1) estimates the effective number of categories in an assemblage using the geometric mean of their proportional abundances 𝑝# (Hill, 1973).  

      Because ecological diversity metrics are sensitive to sampling effort, we rarefied H3 and N2 sequence datasets prior to estimating Shannon diversity so that seasons had the same sample size. For each season in each replicate dataset, we constructed rarefaction and extrapolation curves of LBI Shannon diversity and extracted the Shannon diversity estimate of the sample size that was twice the size of the reference sample size (the smallest number of sequences obtained in any season during the study) (iNEXT R package) (Chao et al., 2014). Chao et al. found that their diversity estimators work well for rarefaction and short-range extrapolation when the extrapolated sample size is up to twice the reference sample size. For H3, we estimated seasonal diversity using replicate datasets subsampled to 360 sequences/season; For N2, datasets were subsampled to 230 sequences/season.”

      Estimating the Shannon diversity of LBI from datasets with even sampling across seasons removes the previous secular trend of increasing LBI diversity over time (Figure 2 in revised manuscript).

      Figure 3 - I wondered what about the co-dominant times? 

      In Figure 3, orange points correspond to seasons in which A(H3N2) and A(H1N1) were codominant. We are not sure of the reviewer’s specific question concerning codominant seasons, but if it concerns whether antigenic drift is linked to epidemic magnitude among codominant seasons alone, we cannot perform separate regression analyses for these seasons because there are only two codominant seasons during the 22 season study period.

      Figure 4 - Related to drift and epidemic size, dominance, etc. -- when is drift measured, and (if it's measured in season t), would larger populations create more drift, simply by having access to more opportunity (via a larger viral population size)? This is a bit 'devil's advocate' but what if some epidemiological/behavioural process causes a larger and/or later peak, and those gave rise to higher drift?

      Seasonal drift is measured as the genetic or antigenic distance between viruses circulating during season t and viruses circulating in the prior season (𝑡 – 1) or two seasons ago (𝑡 – 2).

      Concerning the question about whether larger human populations lead to greater rates of antigenic drift, phylogeographic studies have repeatedly found that East-South-Southeast Asia are the source populations for A(H3N2) viruses (Bedford et al., 2015; Lemey et al., 2014), in part because these regions have tropical or subtropical climates and larger human populations, which enable year-round circulation and higher background infection rates. Larger viral populations (via larger host population sizes) and uninterrupted transmission may increase the efficiency of selection and the probability of strain survival and global spread (Wen et al., 2016). After A(H3N2) variants emerge in East-South-Southeast Asia and spread to other parts of the world, A(H3N2) viruses circulate via overlapping epidemics rather than local persistence (Bedford et al., 2015; Rambaut et al., 2008). Each season, A(H3N2) outbreaks in the US (and other temperate regions) are seeded by case importations from outside the US, genetic diversity peaks during the winter, and a strong genetic bottleneck typically occurs at the end of the season (Rambaut et al., 2008).

      Due to their faster rates of antigenic evolution, A(H3N2) viruses undergo more rapid clade turnover and dissemination than A(H1N1) and B viruses, despite similar global migration networks across A(H3N2), A(H1N1), and B viruses (Bedford et al., 2015). Bedford et al. speculate that there is typically little geographic differentiation in A(H3N2) viruses circulating in each season because A(H3N2) viruses tend to infect adults, and adults are more mobile than children. Compared to A(H3N2) viruses, A(H1N1) and B viruses tend to have greater genealogical diversity, geographic differentiation, and longer local persistence times (Bedford et al., 2015; Rambaut et al., 2008). Thus, some A(H1N1) and B epidemics are reseeded by viruses that have persisted locally since prior epidemics (Bedford et al., 2015).

      Theoretical models have shown that epidemiological processes can influence rates of antigenic evolution (Recker et al., 2007; Wen et al., 2016; Zinder et al., 2013), though the impact of flu epidemiology on viral evolution is likely constrained by the virus’s intrinsic mutation rate. 

      In conclusion, larger host population sizes and flu epidemiology can indeed influence rates of antigenic evolution. However, given that our study is US-centric and focuses on A(H3N2) viruses, these factors are likely not at play in our study, due to intrinsic biological characteristics of A(H3N2) viruses and the geographic location of our study.

      We have added a clarifying sentence to the end of the Introduction to narrow the scope of the paper for the reader.

      Line 114-116: “Rather than characterize in situ evolution of A(H3N2) lineages circulating in the U.S., we study the epidemiological impacts of antigenic drift once A(H3N2) variants have arrived on U.S. soil and managed to establish and circulate at relatively high levels.”

      Methods -- 

      L 620 about rescaling and pre- vs post-pandemic times : tell us more - how has reporting changed? could any of this not be because of reporting but because of NPIs or otherwise? Overall there is a lot of rescaling going on. How sensitive are the results to it? 

      it would be unreasonable to ask for a sensitivity analysis for all the results for all the choices around data preparation, but some idea where there is a reason to think there might be a dependence on one of these choices would be great.

      In response to the 2009 A(H1N1) pandemic, the US CDC and WHO increased laboratory testing capacity and strengthened epidemiological networks, leading to substantial, long-lasting improvements to influenza surveillance that are still in place today (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/overview.htm). At the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, influenza surveillance networks were quickly adapted to detect and understand the spread of SARS-CoV-2. The 2009 pandemic occurred over a time span of less than one year, and strict non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs), such as lockdowns and mask mandates, were not implemented. Thus, we attribute increases in test volume during the post-2009 period to improved virologic surveillance and laboratory testing capacity rather than changes in care-seeking behavior. In the revised manuscript, we include a figure (Figure 1 - figure supplement 2) that shows systematic increases in test volume in all HHS regions after the 2009 pandemic.

      Given the substantial increase in influenza test volume after 2009, we opted to keep the time trend adjustment for the pre- and post-2009 pandemic periods and evaluate whether adjusting for regional reporting differences affects our results. When estimating univariate correlations between various

      A(H3N2) epidemic metrics and evolutionary indicators, we found qualitatively equivalent results for Spearman correlations and regression models, when adjusting for the pre- and post-2009 pandemic time periods and regional reporting versus only adjusting for the pre-/post-2009 pandemic time periods. Below, we share adjusted versions of Figure 3 (regression results) and Figure 3 - figure supplement 1 (Spearman correlations). Each figure only adjusts for differences in pre- and post-2009 pandemic reporting.

      Author response image 1.

      Adjustment for pre- and post-2009 pandemic only

      Author response image 2.

      Adjustment for pre- and post-2009 pandemic only

      L635 - Why discretize the continuous LBI distribution and then use Shannon entropy when you could just use the variance and/or higher moments? (or quantiles)? Similarly, why not use the duration of the peak, rather than Shannon entropy? (though there, because presumably data are already binned weekly, and using duration would involve defining start and stop times, it's more natural than with LBI)

      We realize that we failed to mention in the methods that we calculated the standard deviation of LBI in each season, in addition to the exponential of the Shannon entropy (Shannon diversity) of LBI. Both the Shannon diversity of LBI values and the standard deviation of LBI values were negatively correlated with effective Rt and epidemic intensity and positively correlated with seasonal duration. The two measures were similarly correlated with effective Rt and epidemic intensity (Figure 3 - figure supplements 2 - 3), while the Shannon diversity of LBI had slightly stronger correlations with seasonal duration than s.d. LBI (Figure 5). Thus, both measures of LBI diversity appear to capture potentially biologically important heterogeneities in clade growth rates.

      Separately, we use the inverse Shannon entropy of the incidence distribution to measure the spread of an A(H3N2) epidemic during the season, following the methods of Dalziel et al. 2018. The peak of an epidemic is a single time point at which the maximum incidence occurs. We have not encountered “the duration of the peak” before in epidemiology terminology, and, to our knowledge, there is not a robust way to measure the “duration of a peak,” unless one were to measure the time span between multiple points of maximum incidence or designate an arbitrary threshold for peak incidence that is not strictly the maximum incidence. Given that Shannon entropy is based on the normalized incidence distribution over the course of the entire influenza season (week 40 to week 20), it does not require designating an arbitrary threshold to describe epidemic intensity.

      L642 - again why normalize epidemic intensities, and how sensitive are the results to this? I would imagine given that the RF results were unstable under leave-one-out analysis that some of those results could be quite sensitive to choices of normalization and scaling.

      Epidemic intensity, defined as the inverse Shannon entropy of the incidence distribution, measures the spread of influenza cases across the weeks in a season. Following Dalziel et al. 2018, we estimated epidemic intensity from normalized incidence distributions rather than raw incidences so that epidemic intensity is invariant under differences in reporting rates and/or attack rates across regions and seasons. If we were to use raw incidences instead, HHS regions or seasons could have the appearance of greater or lower epidemic intensity (i.e., incidence concentrated within a few weeks or spread out over several weeks), due to differences in attack rates or test volume, rather than fundamental differences in the shapes of their epidemic curves. In other words, epidemic intensity is intended to measure the shape and spread of an epidemic, regardless of the actual volume of cases in a given region or season.

      In the methods section, we provide further clarification for why epidemic intensities are based on normalized incidence distributions rather than raw incidences.

      Lines 206-209: “Epidemic intensity is intended to measure the shape and spread of an epidemic, regardless of the actual volume of cases in a given region or season. Following the methodology of Dalziel et al. 2018, epidemic intensity values were normalized to fall between 0 and 1 so that epidemic intensity is invariant to differences in reporting rates and/or attack rates across regions and seasons.”  

      L643 - more information about what goes into Epidemia (variables, priors) such that it's replicable/understandable without the code would be good. 

      We now include additional information concerning the epidemic models used to estimate Rt, including all model equations, variables, and priors (Lines 210-276 in Methods).

      L667 did you do breakpoint detection? Why linear models? Was log(incidence) used? 

      In our original submission, we estimated epidemic onsets using piecewise regression models (Lines 666674 in original manuscript), which model non-linear relationships with breakpoints by iteratively fitting linear models (Muggeo, 2003). Piecewise regression falls under the umbrella of parametric methods for breakpoint detection.

      We did not include results from linear models fit to log(incidence) or GLMs with Gaussian error distributions and log links, due to two reasons. First, models fit to log-transformed data require non-zero values as inputs. Although breakpoint detection does not necessarily require weeks of zero incidence leading up to the start of an outbreak, limiting the time period for breakpoint detection to weeks with nonzero incidence (so that we could use log transformed incidence) substantially pushed back previous more biologically plausible estimates of epidemic onset weeks. Second, as an alternative to limiting the dataset to weeks with non-zero incidence, we tried adding a small positive number to weekly incidences so that we could fit models to log transformed incidence for the whole time period spanning epidemic week 40 (the start of the influenza season) to the first week of maximum incidence. Fitting models to log

      transformed incidences produced unrealistic breakpoint locations, potentially because log transformations 1) linearize data, and 2) stabilize variance by reducing the impact of extreme values. Due to the short time span used for breakpoint detection, log transforming incidence diminishes abrupt changes in incidence at the beginning of outbreaks, making it difficult for models to estimate biologically plausible breakpoint locations. Log transformations of incidence may be more useful when analyzing time series spanning multiple seasons, rather than short time spans with sharp changes in incidence (i.e., the exponential growth phase of a single flu outbreak).

      As an alternative to piecewise regression, our revised manuscript also estimates epidemic onsets using a Bayesian ensemble algorithm that accounts for the time series nature of incidence data and allows for complex, non-linear trajectories interspersed with change points (BEAST - a Bayesian estimator of Abrupt change, Seasonal change, and Trend; Zhao et al., 2019). Although a few regional onset time times differed across the two methods, our conclusions did not change concerning correlations between viral fitness and epidemic onset timing.

      We have rewritten the methods section for estimating epidemic onsets to clarify our methodology and to include the BEAST method (Lines 292-308):

      “We estimated the regional onsets of A(H3N2) virus epidemics by detecting breakpoints in A(H3N2) incidence curves at the beginning of each season. The timing of the breakpoint in incidence represents epidemic establishment (i.e., sustained transmission) rather than the timing of influenza introduction or arrival (Charu et al., 2017). We used two methods to estimate epidemic onsets: 1) piecewise regression, which models non-linear relationships with break points by iteratively fitting linear models to each segment (segmented R package) (Muggeo, 2008; Muggeo, 2003), and 2) a Bayesian ensemble algorithm (BEAST – a Bayesian estimator of Abrupt change, Seasonal change, and Trend) that explicitly accounts for the time series nature of incidence data and allows for complex, non-linear trajectories interspersed with change points (Rbeast R package) (Zhao et al., 2019). For each region in each season, we limited the time period of breakpoint detection to epidemic week 40 to the first week of maximum incidence and did not estimate epidemic onsets for regions with insufficient signal, which we defined as fewer than three weeks of consecutive incidence and/or greater than 30% of weeks with missing data. We successfully estimated A(H3N2) onset timing for most seasons, except for three A(H1N1) dominant seasons: 20002001 (0 regions), 2002-2003 (3 regions), and 2009-2010 (0 regions). Estimates of epidemic onset weeks were similar when using piecewise regression versus the BEAST method, and downstream analyses of correlations between viral fitness indicators and onset timing produced equivalent results. We therefore report results from onsets estimated via piecewise regression.”

      L773 national indicators -- presumably this is because you don't have regional-level information, but it might be worth saying that earlier so it doesn't read like there are other indicators now, called national indicators, that we should have heard of 

      In the revised manuscript, we move a paragraph that was at the beginning of the Results to the beginning of the Methods.

      Lines 123-132: 

      “Our study focuses on the impact of A(H3N2) virus evolution on seasonal epidemics from seasons 19971998 to 2018-2019 in the U.S.; whenever possible, we make use of regionally disaggregated indicators and analyses. We start by identifying multiple indicators of influenza evolution each season based on changes in HA and NA. Next, we compile influenza virus subtype-specific incidence time series for U.S. Department of Health and Human Service (HHS) regions and estimate multiple indicators characterizing influenza A(H3N2) epidemic dynamics each season, including epidemic burden, severity, type/subtype dominance, timing, and the age distribution of cases. We then assess univariate relationships between national indicators of evolution and regional epidemic characteristics. Lastly, we use multivariable regression models and random forest models to measure the relative importance of viral evolution, heterosubtypic interference, and prior immunity in predicting regional A(H3N2) epidemic dynamics.”

      In Lines 484-487 in the Methods, we now mention that measures of seasonal antigenic and genetic distance are at the national level. 

      “For each replicate dataset, we estimated national-level genetic and antigenic distances between influenza viruses circulating in consecutive seasons by calculating the mean distance between viruses circulating in the current season 𝑡 and viruses circulating during the prior season (𝑡 – 1 year; one season lag) or two prior seasons ago (𝑡 – 2 years; two season lag).”

      L782 Why Beta regression and what is "the resampled dataset" ? 

      Beta regression is appropriate for models of subtype dominance, epidemic intensity, and age-specific proportions of ILI cases because these data are continuous and restricted to the interval (0, 1) (Ferrari & Cribari-Neto, 2004). “The resampled dataset” refers to the “1000 bootstrap replicates of the original dataset (1000 samples with replacement)” mentioned in Lines 777-778 of the original manuscript. 

      In the revised manuscript, we include more background information about Beta regression models, and explicitly mention that regression models were fit to 1000 bootstrap replicates of the original dataset.

      Lines 503-507: 

      “For subtype dominance, epidemic intensity, and age-specific proportions of ILI cases, we fit Beta regression models with logit links. Beta regression models are appropriate when the variable of interest is continuous and restricted to the interval (0, 1) (Ferrari & Cribari-Neto, 2004). For each epidemic metric, we fit the best-performing regression model to 1000 bootstrap replicates of the original dataset.”

      The github is clear, comprehensive and well-documented, at least at a brief glance. 

      Thank you! At the time of resubmission, our GitHub repository is updated to incorporate feedback from the reviewers.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Life Assessment

      This valuable study builds on previous work by the authors by presenting a potentially key method for correcting optical aberrations in GRIN lens-based micro endoscopes used for imaging deep brain regions. By combining simulations and experiments, the authors show that the obtained field of view is significantly increased with corrected, versus uncorrected microendoscopes. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, although some aspects of the manuscript should be clarified and missing information provided. Because the approach described in this paper does not require any microscope or software modifications, it can be readily adopted by neuroscientists who wish to image neuronal activity deep in the brain.

      We thank the Referees for their interest in the paper and for the constructive feedback. We have taken the time necessary to address all of their comments, acquiring new data and performing additional analyses. With the inclusion of these new results, we modified four main figures (Figures 1, 6, 7, and 8), added three new Supplementary Figures (Supplementary Figures 1, 2, and 3), and significantly edited the text. Based on the additional work suggested by the Referees, we believe that we have improved our manuscript, provided missing information, and clarified some aspects of the manuscript, which the Referees pointed our attention to.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Referee’s comment: Sattin, Nardin, and colleagues designed and evaluated corrective microlenses that increase the useable field of view of two long (>6mm) thin (500 um diameter) GRIN lenses used in deep-tissue two-photon imaging. This paper closely follows the thread of earlier work from the same group (e.g. Antonini et al, 2020; eLife), filling out the quiver of available extended-fieldof-view 2P endoscopes with these longer lenses. The lenses are made by a molding process that appears practical and easy to adopt with conventional two-photon microscopes.

      Simulations are used to motivate the benefits of extended field of view, demonstrating that more cells can be recorded, with less mixing of signals in extracted traces, when recorded with higher optical resolution. In vivo tests were performed in the piriform cortex, which is difficult to access, especially in chronic preparations.

      The design, characterization, and simulations are clear and thorough, but not exhaustive (see below), and do not break new ground in optical design or biological application. However, the approach shows much promise, including for applications not mentioned in the present text such as miniaturized GRIN-based microscopes. Readers will largely be interested in this work for practical reasons: to apply the authors' corrected endoscopes.

      Strengths:

      The text is clearly written, the ex vivo analysis is thorough and well-supported, and the figures are clear. The authors achieved their aims, as evidenced by the images presented, and were able to make measurements from large numbers of cells simultaneously in vivo in a difficult preparation.

      Weaknesses:

      Referee’s comment: (1) The novelty of the present work over previous efforts from the same group is not well explained. What needed to be done differently to correct these longer GRIN lenses?

      We thank the Referee for the positive evaluation of our work. The optical properties of GRIN lenses depend on the geometrical and optical features of the specific GRIN lens type considered, i.e. its diameter, length, numerical aperture, pitch, and radial modulation of the refractive index. Our approach is based on the addition of a corrective optical element at the back end of the GRIN lens to compensate for aberrations that light encounters as it travels through the GRIN lens. The corrective optical element must, therefore, be specifically tailored to the specific GRIN lens type we aim to correct the aberrations of. The novelty of the present article lies in the successful execution of the ray-trace simulations and two-photon lithography fabrication of corrective optical elements necessary to achieve aberration correction in the two novel and long GRIN lens types, i.e. NEM-050-25-15-860-S-1.5p and NEM-050-23-15-860-S-2.0p (GRIN length, 6.4 mm and 8.8 mm, respectively). Our previous work (Antonini et al. eLife 2020) demonstrated aberration correction with GRIN lenses shorter than 4.1 mm. The design and fabrication of a single corrective optical element suitable to enlarge the field-of-view (FOV) in these longer GRIN lenses is not obvious, especially because longer GRIN lenses are affected by stronger aberrations. To better clarify this point, we revised the Introduction at page 5 (lines 3-10 from bottom) as follows:

      “Recently, a novel method based on 3D microprinting of polymer optics was developed to correct for GRIN aberrations by placing specifically designed aspherical corrective lenses at the back end of the GRIN lens 7. This approach is attractive because it is built-in on the GRIN lens and corrected microendoscopes are ready-to-use, requiring no change in the optical set-up. However, previous work demonstrated the feasibility of this method only for GRIN lenses of length < 4.1 mm 7, which are too short to reach the most ventral regions of the mouse brain. The applicability of this technology to longer GRIN lenses, which are affected by stronger optical aberrations 19, remained to be proven.”

      (2) Some strong motivations for the method are not presented. For example, the introduction (page 3) focuses on identifying neurons with different coding properties, but this can be done with electrophysiology (albeit with different strengths and weaknesses). Compared to electrophysiology, optical methods more clearly excel at genetic targeting, subcellular measurements, and molecular specificity; these could be mentioned.

      Thank you for the comment. We added a paragraph in the Introduction (page 3, lines 2-8) according to what suggested by the Reviewer:

      “High resolution 2P fluorescence imaging of the awake brain is a fundamental tool to investigate the relationship between the structure and the function of brain circuits 1. Compared to electrophysiological techniques, functional imaging in combination with genetically encoded indicators allows monitoring the activity of genetically targeted cell types, access to subcellular compartments, and tracking the dynamics of many biochemical signals in the brain (2). However, a critical limitation of multiphoton microscopy lies in its limited (< 1 mm) penetration depth in scattering biological media 3”.

      Another example, in comparing microfabricated lenses to other approaches, an unmentioned advantage is miniaturization and potential application to mini-2P microscopes, which use GRIN lenses.

      We added the concept suggested by the Reviewer in the Discussion (page 21, lines 4-7 from bottom). The text now reads:

      “Another advantage of long corrected microendoscopes described here over adaptive optics approaches is the possibility to couple corrected microendoscopes with portable 2P microscopes 42-44, allowing high resolution functional imaging of deep brain circuits on an enlarged FOV during naturalistic behavior in freely moving mice”.

      (3) Some potentially useful information is lacking, leaving critical questions for potential adopters:

      How sensitive is the assembly to decenter between the corrective optic and the GRIN lens?

      Following the Referee’s comment, we conducted new optical simulations to evaluate the decrease in optical performance of the corrected endoscopes as a function of the radial shift of the corrective lens from the optical axis of the GRIN rod (decentering, new Supplementary Figure 3), using light rays passing either off- or on-axis. For off-axis rays, we found that the Strehl ratio remained above 0.8 (Maréchal criterion) for positive translations in the range 6-11.5 microns and 16-50 microns for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long corrected microendoscope, respectively, while the Strehl ratio decreased below 0.8 for negative translations of amplitude ~ 5 microns. Please note that for the most marginal rays, a negative translation produces a mismatch between the corrective microlens and the GRIN lens such that the light rays no longer pass through the corrective lens. In contrast, rays passing near the optical axis were still focused by the corrected probe with Strehl ratio above 0.8 in a range of radial shifts of -40 – 40 microns for both microendoscope types. Altogether, these novel simulations suggest that decentering between the corrective microlens and the GRIN lens < 5 microns do not majorly affect the optical properties of the corrected endoscopes. These new results are now displayed in Supplementary Figure 3 and described on page 7 (lines 3-5 from bottom).

      What is the yield of fabrication and of assembly?

      The fabrication yield using molding was ~ 90% (N > 30 molded lenses). The main limitation of this procedure was the formation of air bubbles between the mold negative and the glass coverslip. Molded lenses were visually inspected with a stereomicrscope and, in case of air bubble formation, they were discarded.

      The assembly yield, i.e. correct positioning of the GRIN lens with respect to the coverslip, was 100 % (N = 27 endoscopes).

      We added this information in the Methods at page 29 (lines 1-12), as follows:

      “After UV curing, the microlens was visually inspected at the stereomicroscope. In case of formation of air bubbles, the microlens was discarded (yield of the molding procedure: ~ 90 %, N > 30 molded lenses). The coverslip with the attached corrective lens was sealed to a customized metal or plastic support ring of appropriate diameter (Fig. 2C). The support ring, the coverslip and the aspherical lens formed the upper part of the corrected microendoscope, to be subsequently coupled to the proper GRIN rod (Table 2) using a custom-built opto-mechanical stage and NOA63 (Fig. 2C) 7. The GRIN rod was positioned perpendicularly to the glass coverslip, on the other side of the coverslip compared to the corrective lens, and aligned to the aspherical lens perimeter (Fig. 2C) under the guidance of a wide field microscope equipped with a camera. The yield of the assembly procedure for the probes used in this work was 100 % (N = 27 endoscopes). For further details on the assembly of corrected microendoscope see(7)”. 

      Supplementary Figure 1: Is this really a good agreement between the design and measured profile? Does the figure error (~10 um in some cases on average) noticeably degrade the image?

      As the Reviewer correctly noticed, the discrepancy between the simulated profile and the experimentally measured profile can be up to 5-10 microns at specific radial positions. This discrepancy could be due to issues with: (i) the fabrication of the microlens; (ii) the experimental measurement of the lens profile with the stylus profilometer. To discriminate among these two possibilities, we asked what would be the expected optical properties of the corrected endoscope should the corrective lens have the experimentally measured (not the simulated) profile. To this aim, we performed new optical simulations of the point spread function (PSF) of the corrected probe using, as corrective microlens profile, the average, experimentally measured, profile of a fabricated corrective lens. For both microendoscope types, we first fitted the mean experimentally measured profile of the fabricated lens with the aspherical function reported in equation (1) of the main text:

      where:

      -                is the radial distance from the optical axis;

      -                is equal to 1⁄ , where R is the radius of curvature;

      -                is the conic constant;

      -                − are asphericity coefficients;

      -                is the height of the microlens profile on-axis.

      The fitting values of the parameters of equation (1) for the two lenses are reported for the Referee’s inspection here below (variables describing distances are expressed in mm):

      Author response table 1.

      Fitting values for the parameters of Equation (1) describing the profile of corrective microlens replicas measured with the stylus profilometer. Distances are expressed in mm.

      We then assumed that the profile of the corrective microlenses were equal to the mean experimentally measured profiles and used the aspherical fitting functions in the optical simulations to compute the performance of corrected microendoscopes. For both microendoscope types, we found that the Strehl ratio was lower than 0.35, well below the theoretical diffractionlimited threshold of 0.8 (Maréchal criterion) at moderate distances from the optical axis (68 μm94 μm and 67 μm-92 μm on the focal plane in the object space, after the front end of the GRIN lens, for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long corrected microendoscope, respectively, Author response image 1A, C), and the PSF was strongly distorted (Author response image 1B, D).

      Author response image 1.

      Simulated optical performance of corrected probes with profiles of corrective microlenses equal to the mean experimentally measured profiles of fabricated corrective lenses. A) The Strehl ratio for the 6.4 mm-long corrected microendoscope with measured microlens profile (black dots) is computed on-axis (distance from the center of the FOV d = 0 µm) and at two radial distances off-axis (d = 68 μm and 94 μm on the focal plane in the object space) and compared to the Strehl ratio of the uncorrected (red line) and corrected (blue line) microendoscopes. B) Lateral (x,y) and axial (x,z) fluorescence intensity (F) profiles of simulated PSFs on-axis (left) and off-axis (right, at the indicated distance d computed on the focal plane in the object space) for the 6.4 mm-long corrected microendoscope with measured microlens profile. C) Same as in (A) for the 8.8 mm-long corrected microendoscope (off-axis d = 67 μm and 92 μm on the focal plane in the object space). D) Same as in (B) for the 8.8 mm-long corrected microendoscope.

      These simulated findings are in contrast with the experimentally measured optical properties of our corrected endoscopes (Figure 3). In other words, these novel simulated results show that experimentally measured profiles of the corrected lenses are incompatible with the experimental measurements of the optical properties of the corrected endoscopes. Therefore, our experimental recording of the lens profile shown in Supplementary Figure 1 of the first submission (now Supplementary Figure 4) should be used only as a coarse measure of the lens shape and cannot be used to precisely compare simulated lens profiles with measured lens profiles.

      How do individual radial profiles compare to the presented means?

      We provide below a modified version of Supplementary Figure 4 (Supplementary Figure 1 in the first submission), where individual profiles measured with the stylus profilometer and the mean profile are displayed for both microendoscope types (Author response image 2). In the manuscript (Supplementary Figure 4), we would suggest to keep showing mean profiles ± standard errors of the mean, as we did in the original submission.

      Author response image 2.

      Characterization of polymeric corrective lens replicas. A) Stylus profilometer measurements were performed along the radius of the corrective polymer microlens replica for the 6.4 mm-long corrected microendoscope. Individual measured profiles (grey solid lines) obtained from n = 3 profile measurements on m = 3 different corrective lens replicas, plus the mean profile (black solid line) are displayed. B) Same as (A) for the 8.8 mm-long microendoscope.

      What is the practical effect of the strong field curvature? Are the edges of the field, which come very close to the lens surface, a practical limitation?

      A first practical effect of the field curvature is that structures at different z coordinates are sampled. The observed field curvature of corrected endoscopes may therefore impact imaging in brain regions characterized by strong axially organized anatomy (e.g., the pyramidal layer of the hippocampus), but would not significantly affect imaging in regions with homogeneous cell density within the axial extension of the field curvature (< 170 µm, see more details below). A second consequence of the field curvature, as the Referee correctly points out, is that cell at the border of the FOV are closer to the front end of the GRIN lens. In measurements of subresolved fluorescent layers (Figure 3A-D), we observed that the field curvature extends in the axial direction to ~ 110 μm and ~170 μm for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscopes, respectively. Considered that the nominal working distances on the object side of the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscopes were, respectively, 210 μm and 178 μm (Table 3), structures positioned at the very edge of the FOV were ~ 100 μm and ~ 8 μm away from the GRIN front end for the 6.4 mm-long and for the 8.8 mm-long probe, respectively. Previous studies have shown that brain tissue within 50-100 μm from the GRIN front end may show signs of tissue reaction to the implant (Curreli et al. PLOS Biology 2022, Attardo et al. Nature 2015). Therefore, structures at the very edge of the FOV of the 8.8 mm-long endoscopes, but not those at the edge of the 6.4 mm-long endoscopes, may be within the volume showing tissue reaction. We added a paragraph in the text to discuss these points (page 18 lines 10-14).

      The lenses appear to be corrected for monochromatic light; high-performance microscopes are generally achromatic. Is the bandwidth of two-photon excitation sufficient to warrant optimization over multiple wavelengths?

      Thanks for this comment. All optical simulations described in the first submission were performed at a fixed wavelength (λ = 920 nm). Following the Referee’s request, we explored the effect of changing wavelength on the Strehl ratio using new optical simulations. We found that the Strehl ratio remains > 0.8 at least within ± 10 nm from λ = 920 nm (new Supplementary Figure 1A-D, left panels), which covers the limited bandwidth of our femtosecond laser. Moreover, these simulations demonstrate that, on a much wider wavelength range (800 - 1040 nm), high Strehl ratio is obtained, but at different z planes (new Supplementary Figure 1A-D, right panels). This means that the corrective lens is working as expected also for wavelengths which are different from 920 nm, with different wavelengths having the most enlarged FOV located at different working distances. These new results are now described on page 7 (lines 8-10).

      GRIN lenses are often used to access a 3D volume by scanning in z (including in this study). How does the corrective lens affect imaging performance over the 3D field of view?

      The optical simulations we did to design the corrective lenses were performed maximizing aberration correction only in the focal plane of the endoscope. Following the Referee’s comment, we explored the effect of aberration correction outside the focal plane using new optical simulations. In corrected endoscopes, we found that for off-axis rays (radial distance from the optical axis > 40 μm) the Strehl ratio was > 0.8 (Maréchal criterion) in a larger volume compared to uncorrected endoscopes (new Supplementary Figure 2), demonstrating that the aberration correction method developed in this study does extend beyond the focal plane for short distances. For example, at a radial distance of ~ 90 μm from the optical axis, the axial range in which the Strehl ratio was > 0.8 in corrected endoscopes was 28 μm and 19 μm for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscope, respectively. These new results are now described on page 7 (10-19).

      (4) The in vivo images (Figure 7D) have a less impressive resolution and field than the ex vivo images (Figure 4B), and the reason for this is not clear. Given the difference in performance, how does this compare to an uncorrected endoscope in the same preparation? Is the reduced performance related to uncorrected motion, field curvature, working distance, etc?

      In comparing images in Figure 4B with images shown in Figure 7D, the following points should be considered:

      (1) Figure 4B is a maximum fluorescence intensity projection of multiple axial planes of a z-stack acquired through a thin brain slice (slice thickness: 50 µm) using 8 frame averages for each plane. In contrast, images in Figure 7D are median projection of a t-series acquired on a single plane in the awake mouse at 30 Hz resonant scanning imaging (8 min, 14,400 frames).

      (2) Images of the fixed brain slice in Figure 4B were acquired at 1024 pixels x 1024 pixels resolution, nominal pixel size 0.45 µm/pixel, and with objective NA = 0.50, whereas in vivo images in Figure 7D were acquired at 512 pixels x 512 pixels resolution, nominal pixel size 0.72 - 0.84 µm/pixel, and with objective NA = 0.45.

      (3) In the in vivo preparation (Figure 7D), excitation and emission light travel through > 180 µm of scattering and absorbing brain tissue, reducing spatial resolution and the SNR of the collected fluorescence signal.

      (4) By shifting the sample in the x, y plane, in Figure 4B we could chose a FOV containing homogenously stained cells. x, y shifting and selecting across multiple FOVs was not possible in vivo, as the GRIN lens was cemented on the animal skull.

      (5) Images in Figure 7D were motion corrected, but we cannot exclude that part of the decrease in resolution observed in Figure 7D when compared to images in Figure 4B are due to incomplete correction of motion artifacts.

      For all the reasons listed above, we believe that it is expected to see smaller resolution and contrast in images recorded in vivo (Figure 7D) compared to images acquired in fixed tissue (Figure 4B).

      Regarding the question of how do images from an uncorrected and a corrected endoscopes compared in vivo, we think that this comparison is better performed in fixed tissue (Figure 4) or in simulated calcium data (Figure 5-6), rather than in vivo recordings (Figure 7). In fact, in the brain of living mice motion artifacts, changes in fluorophore expression level, variation in the optical properties of the brain (e.g., the presence of a blood vessel over the FOV) may make the comparison of images acquired with uncorrected and corrected microendoscopes difficult, requiring a large number of animals to cancel out the contributions of these factors. Comparing optical properties in fixed tissue is, in contrast, devoid of these confounding factors. Moreover, the major advantage of quantifying how the optical properties of uncorrected and corrected endoscopes impact on the ability to extract information about neuronal activity in simulated calcium data is that, under simulated conditions, we can count on a known ground truth as reference (e.g., how many neurons are in the FOV, where they are, and which is their electrical activity). This is clearly not possible in the in vivo recordings.

      Regarding Figure 7, there is no analysis of the biological significance of the calcium signals or even a description of where olfactory stimuli were presented.

      We appreciate the Reviewer pointing out the lack of detailed analysis regarding the biological significance of the calcium signals and the presentation of olfactory stimuli in Figure 7. Our initial focus was on demonstrating the effectiveness of the optimized GRIN lenses for imaging deep brain areas like the piriform cortex, with an emphasis on the improved signal-tonoise ratio (SNR) these lenses provide. However, we agree that including more context about the experimental conditions would enhance the manuscript. To address this point, we added a new panel (Figure 7F) showing calcium transients aligned with the onset of olfactory stimulus presentations, which are now indicated by shaded light blue areas. Additionally, we have specified the timing of each stimulus presented in Figure 7E. This revision allows readers to better understand the relationship between the calcium signals and the olfactory stimuli.

      The timescale of jGCaMP8f signals in Figure 7E is uncharacteristically slow for this indicator (compared to Zhang et al 2023 (Nature)), though perhaps this is related to the physiology of these cells or the stimuli.

      Regarding the timescale of the calcium signals observed in Figure 7E, we apologize for the confusion caused by a mislabeling we inserted in the original manuscript. The experiments presented in Figure 7 were conducted using jGCaMP7f, not jGCaMP8f as previously stated (both indicators were used in this study but in separate experiments). We have corrected this error in the Results section (caption of Figure 7D, E). It is important to note that jGCaMP7f has a longer half-decay time compared to jGCaMP8f, which could in part account for the slower decay kinetics observed in our data. Furthermore, the prolonged calcium signals can be attributed to the physiological properties of neurons in the piriform cortex. Upon olfactory stimulation, these neurons often fire multiple action potentials, resulting in extended calcium transients that can last several seconds. This sustained activity has been documented in previous studies, such as Roland et al. (eLife 2017, Figure 1C therein) in anesthetized animals and Wang et al. (Neuron 2020, Figure 1E therein) in awake animals, which report similar durations for calcium signals.

      (5) The claim of unprecedented spatial resolution across the FOV (page 18) is hard to evaluate and is not supported by references to quantitative comparisons. The promises of the method for future studies (pages 18-19) could also be better supported by analysis or experiment, but these are minor and to me, do not detract from the appeal of the work.

      GRIN lens-based imaging of piriform cortex in the awake mouse had already been done in Wang et al., Neuron 2020. The GRIN lens used in that work was NEM-050-50-00920-S-1.5p (GRINTECH, length: 6.4 mm; diameter: 0.5 mm), similar to the one that we used to design the 6.4 mm-long corrected microendoscope. Here we used a microendoscope specifically design to correct off-axis aberrations and enlarge the FOV, in order to maximize the number of neurons recorded with the highest possible spatial resolution, while keeping the tissue invasiveness to the minimum. Following the Referee’s comments, we revised the sentence at page 19 (lines 68 from bottom) as follows:

      “We used long corrected microendoscopes to measure population dynamics in the olfactory cortex of awake head-restrained mice with unprecedented combination of high spatial resolution across the FOV and minimal invasiveness(17)”.

      (6) The text is lengthy and the material is repeated, especially between the introduction and conclusion. Consolidating introductory material to the introduction would avoid diluting interesting points in the discussion.

      We thank the Reviewer for this comment. As suggested, we edited the Introduction and shortened the Discussion.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this manuscript, the authors present an approach to correct GRIN lens aberrations, which primarily cause a decrease in signal-to-noise ratio (SNR), particularly in the lateral regions of the field-of-view (FOV), thereby limiting the usable FOV. The authors propose to mitigate these aberrations by designing and fabricating aspherical corrective lenses using ray trace simulations and two-photon lithography, respectively; the corrective lenses are then mounted on the back aperture of the GRIN lens.

      This approach was previously demonstrated by the same lab for GRIN lenses shorter than 4.1 mm (Antonini et al., eLife, 2020). In the current work, the authors extend their method to a new class of GRIN lenses with lengths exceeding 6 mm, enabling access to deeper brain regions as most ventral regions of the mouse brain. Specifically, they designed and characterized corrective lenses for GRIN lenses measuring 6.4 mm and 8.8 mm in length. Finally, they applied these corrected long micro-endoscopes to perform high-precision calcium signal recordings in the olfactory cortex.

      Compared with alternative approaches using adaptive optics, the main strength of this method is that it does not require hardware or software modifications, nor does it limit the system's temporal resolution. The manuscript is well-written, the data are clearly presented, and the experiments convincingly demonstrate the advantages of the corrective lenses.

      The implementation of these long corrected micro-endoscopes, demonstrated here for deep imaging in the mouse olfactory bulb, will also enable deep imaging in larger mammals such as rats or marmosets.

      We thank the Referee for the positive comments on our study. We address the points indicated by the Referee in the “Recommendation to the authors” section below.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work presents the development, characterization, and use of new thin microendoscopes (500µm diameter) whose accessible field of view has been extended by the addition of a corrective optical element glued to the entrance face. Two micro endoscopes of different lengths (6.4mm and 8.8mm) have been developed, allowing imaging of neuronal activity in brain regions >4mm deep. An alternative solution to increase the field of view could be to add an adaptive optics loop to the microscope to correct the aberrations of the GRIN lens. The solution presented in this paper does not require any modification of the optical microscope and can therefore be easily accessible to any neuroscience laboratory performing optical imaging of neuronal activity.

      Strengths:

      (1) The paper is generally clear and well-written. The scientific approach is well structured and numerous experiments and simulations are presented to evaluate the performance of corrected microendoscopes. In particular, we can highlight several consistent and convincing pieces of evidence for the improved performance of corrected micro endoscopes:

      a) PSFs measured with corrected micro endoscopes 75µm from the centre of the FOV show a significant reduction in optical aberrations compared to PSFs measured with uncorrected micro endoscopes.

      b) Morphological imaging of fixed brain slices shows that optical resolution is maintained over a larger field of view with corrected micro endoscopes compared to uncorrected ones, allowing neuronal processes to be revealed even close to the edge of the FOV.

      c) Using synthetic calcium data, the authors showed that the signals obtained with the corrected microendoscopes have a significantly stronger correlation with the ground truth signals than those obtained with uncorrected microendoscopes.

      (2) There is a strong need for high-quality micro endoscopes to image deep brain regions in vivo. The solution proposed by the authors is simple, efficient, and potentially easy to disseminate within the neuroscience community.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Many points need to be clarified/discussed. Here are a few examples:

      a) It is written in the methods: “The uncorrected microendoscopes were assembled either using different optical elements compared to the corrected ones or were obtained from the corrected

      probes after the mechanical removal of the corrective lens.”

      This is not very clear: the uncorrected microendoscopes are not simply the unmodified GRIN lenses?

      We apologize for not been clear enough on this point. Uncorrected microendoscopes are not simply unmodified GRIN lenses, rather they are GRIN lenses attached to a round glass coverslip (thickness: 100 μm). The glass coverslip was included in ray-trace optical simulations of the uncorrected system and this is the reason why commercial GRIN lenses and corresponding uncorrected microendoscopes have different working distances, as reported in Tables 2-3. To make the text clearer, we added the following sentence at page 27 (last 4 lines):

      “To evaluate the impact of corrective microlenses on the optical performance of GRIN-based microendoscopes, we also simulated uncorrected microendoscopes composed of the same optical elements of corrected probes (glass coverslip and GRIN rod), but in the absence of the corrective microlens”.

      b) In the results of the simulation of neuronal activity (Figure 5A, for example), the neurons in the center of the FOV have a very large diameter (of about 30µm). This should be discussed.

      Thanks for this comment. In synthetic calcium imaging t-series, cell radii were randomly sampled from a Gaussian distribution with mean = 10 µm and standard deviation (SD) = 3 µm. Both values were estimated from the literature (ref. no. 28: Suzuki & Bekkers, Journal of Neuroscience, 2011) as described in the Methods (page 35). In the image shown in Figure 5A, neurons near to the center of the FOV have radius of ~ 20 µm corresponding to the right tail of the distribution (mean + 3SD = 19 µm). It is also important to note that, for corrected microendoscopes, neurons in the central portion of the FOV appear larger than cells located near the edges of the FOV, because the magnification depends on the distance from the optical axis (see Figure 3E, F) and near the center the magnification is > 1 for both microendoscope types.

      Also, why is the optical resolution so low on these images?

      Images shown in Figure 5 are median fluorescence intensity projections of 5 minute-long simulated t-series. Simulated calcium data were generated with pixel size 0.8 μm/pixel and frame rate 30 Hz, similarly to in vivo recordings. In the simulations, pixels not belonging to any cell soma were assigned a value of background fluorescence randomly sampled from a normal distribution with mean and standard deviation estimated from experimental data, as described in the Methods section (page 37). To simulate activity, the mean spiking rate of neurons was set to 0.3 Hz, thus in a large fraction of frames neurons do not show calcium transients. Therefore, the median fluorescence intensity value of somata will be close to their baseline fluorescence value (_F_0). Since in simulations F0 values (~ 45-80 a.u.) were not much higher than the background fluorescence level (~ 45 a.u.), this may generate the appearance of low contrast image in Figure 5A. Finally, we suspect that PDF rendering also contributed to degrade the quality of those images. We will now submit high resolution images alongside the PDF file.

      c) It seems that we can't see the same neurons on the left and right panels of Figure 5D. This should be discussed.

      The Referee is correct. When we intersected the simulated 3D volume of ground truth neurons with the focal surface of microendoscopes, the center of the FOV for the 8.8 mmlong corrected microendoscope was located at a larger depth than the FOV of the 8.8 mm uncorrected microendoscope. This effect was due to the larger field curvature of corrected 8.8 mmlong endoscopes compared to 8.8 mm-long uncorrected endoscopes. This is the reason why different neurons were displayed for uncorrected and corrected endoscopes in Figure 5D. We added this explanation in the text at page 37 (lines 1-4). The text reads:

      “Due to the stronger field curvature of the 8.8 mm-long corrected microendoscope (Figure 1C) compared to 8.8 mm-long uncorrected microendoscopes, the center of the corrected imaging focal surface resulted at a larger depth in the simulated volume compared to the center of the uncorrected focal surface(s). Therefore, different simulated neurons were sampled in the two cases”.

      d) It is not very clear to me why in Figure 6A, F the fraction of adjacent cell pairs that are more correlated than expected increases as a function of the threshold on peak SNR. The authors showed in Supplementary Figure 3B that the mean purity index increases as a function of the threshold on peak SNR for all micro endoscopes. Therefore, I would have expected the correlation between adjacent cells to decrease as a function of the threshold on peak SNR. Similarly, the mean purity index for the corrected short microendoscope is close to 1 for high thresholds on peak SNR: therefore, I would have expected the fraction of adjacent cell pairs that are more correlated than expected to be close to 0 under these conditions. It would be interesting to clarify these points.

      Thanks for raising this point. We defined the fraction of adjacent cell pairs more correlated than expected as the number of adjacent cell pairs more correlated than expected divided by the number of adjacent cell pairs. The reason why this fraction raises as a function of the SNR threshold is shown in Supplementary Figure 2 in the first submission (now Supplementary Figure 5). There, we separately plotted the number of adjacent cell pairs more correlated than expected (numerator) and the number of adjacent cell pairs (denominator) as a function of the SNR threshold. For both microendoscope types, we observed that the denominator more rapidly decreased with peak SNR threshold than the numerator. Therefore, the fraction of adjacent cell pairs more correlated than expected increases with the peak SNR threshold.

      To understand why the denominator decreases with SNR threshold, it should be considered that, due to the deterioration of spatial resolution and attenuation of fluorescent signal collection as a function of the radial distance from the optical axis (see for example fluorescent film profiles in Figure 3A, C), increasing the threshold on the peak SNR of extracted calcium traces implies limiting cell detection to those cells located within smaller distance from the center of the FOV. This information is shown in Figure 5C, F.

      In the manuscript text, this point is discussed at page 12 (lines 1-3 from bottom) and page 13 (lines 1-4):

      “The fraction of pairs of adjacent cells (out of the total number of adjacent pairs) whose activity correlated significantly more than expected increased as a function of the SNR threshold for corrected and uncorrected microendoscopes of both lengths (Fig. 6A, F). This effect was due to a larger decrease of the total number of pairs of adjacent cells as a function of the SNR threshold compared to the decrease in the number of pairs of adjacent cells whose activity was more correlated than expected (Supplementary Figure 5)”.

      e) Figures 6C, H: I think it would be fairer to compare the uncorrected and corrected endomicroscopes using the same effective FOV.

      To address the Reviewer’s concern, we repeated the linear regression of purity index as a function of the radial distance using the same range of radial distances for the uncorrected and corrected case of both microendoscope types. Below, we provide an updated version of Figure 6C, H for the referee’s perusal. Please note that the maximum value displayed on the x-axis of both graphs is now corresponding to the minimum value between the two maximum radial distance values obtained in the uncorrected and corrected case (maximum radial distance displayed: 151.6 µm and 142.1 μm for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long GRIN rod, respectively). Using the same effective FOV, we found that the purity index drops significantly more rapidly with the radial distance for uncorrected microendoscopes compared to the corrected ones, similarly to what observed in the original version of Figure 6. The values of the linear regression parameters and statistical significance of the difference between the slopes in the uncorrected and corrected cases are stated in the Author response image 3 caption below for both microendoscope types. In the manuscript, we would suggest to keep showing data corresponding to all detected cells, as we did in the original submission.

      Author response image 3.

      Linear regression of purity index as a function of the radial distance. A) Purity index of extracted traces with peak SNR > 10 was estimated using a GLM of ground truth source contributions and plotted as a function of the radial distance of cell identities from the center of the FOV for n = 13 simulated experiments with the 6.4 mm-long uncorrected (red) and corrected (blue) microendoscope. Black lines represent the linear regression of data ± 95% confidence intervals (shaded colored areas). Maximum value of radial distance displayed: 151.6 μm. Slopes ± standard error (s.e.): uncorrected, (-0.0015 ± 0.0002) µm-1; corrected, (-0.0006 ± 0.0001) μm-1. Uncorrected, n = 991; corrected, n = 1156. Statistical comparison of slopes, p < 10<sup>-10</sup>, permutation test. B) Same as (A) for n = 15 simulated experiments with the 8.8 mm-long uncorrected and corrected microendoscope. Maximum value of radial distance displayed: 142.1 μm. Slopes ± s.e.: uncorrected, (-0.0014 ± 0.0003) μm-1; corrected, (-0.0010 ± 0.0002) µm-1. Uncorrected, n = 718; corrected, n = 1328. Statistical comparison of slopes, p = 0.0082, permutation test.

      f) Figure 7E: Many calcium transients have a strange shape, with a very fast decay following a plateau or a slower decay. Is this the result of motion artefacts or analysis artefacts?

      Thank you for raising this point about the unusual shapes of the calcium transients in Figure 7E. The observed rapid decay following a plateau or a slower decay is indeed a result of how the data were presented in the original submission. Our experimental protocol consisted of 22 s-long trials with an inter-trial interval of 10 s (see Methods section, page 44). In the original figure, data from multiple trials were concatenated, which led to artefactual time courses and apparent discontinuities in the calcium signals. To resolve this issue, we revised Figure 7E to accurately represent individual concatenated trials. We also added a new panel (please see new Figure 7F) showing examples of single cell calcium responses in individual trials without concatenation, with annotations indicating the timing and identity of presented olfactory stimuli.

      Also, the duration of many calcium transients seems to be long (several seconds) for GCaMP8f. These points should be discussed.

      Author response: regarding the timescale of the calcium signals observed in Figure 7E, we apologize for the confusion caused by a mislabeling we inserted in the manuscript. The experiments presented in Figure 7 were conducted using jGCaMP7f, not jGCaMP8f as previously stated (both indicators were used in this study, but in separate experiments). We have corrected this error in the Results section (caption of Figure 7D, E). It is important to note that jGCaMP7f has a longer half-decay time compared to jGCaMP8f, which could in part account for the slower decay kinetics observed in our data. Furthermore, the prolonged calcium signals can be attributed to the physiological properties of neurons in the piriform cortex. Upon olfactory stimulation, these neurons often fire multiple action potentials, resulting in extended calcium transients that can last several seconds. This sustained activity has been documented in previous studies, such as Roland et al. (eLife 2017, Figure 1C therein) in anesthetized animals and Wang et al. (Neuron 2020, Figure 1E therein) in awake animals, which report similar durations for calcium signals. We cite these references in the text. We believe that these revisions and clarifications address the Reviewer's concern and enhance the overall clarity of our manuscript.

      g) The authors do not mention the influence of the neuropil on their data. Did they subtract the neuropil's contribution to the signals from the somata? It is known from the literature that the presence of the neuropil creates artificial correlations between neurons, which decrease with the distance between the neurons (Grødem, S., Nymoen, I., Vatne, G.H. et al. An updated suite of viral vectors for in vivo calcium imaging using intracerebral and retro-orbital injections in male mice. Nat Commun 14, 608 (2023). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-023-363243; Keemink SW, Lowe SC, Pakan JMP, Dylda E, van Rossum MCW, Rochefort NL. FISSA: A neuropil decontamination toolbox for calcium imaging signals. Sci Rep. 2018 Feb 22;8(1):3493.

      doi: 10.1038/s41598-018-21640-2. PMID: 29472547; PMCID: PMC5823956)

      This point should be addressed.

      We apologize for not been clear enough in our previous version of the manuscript. The neuropil was subtracted from calcium traces both in simulated and experimental data. Please note that instead of using the term “neuropil”, we used the word “background”. We decided to use the more general term “background” because it also applies to the case of synthetic calcium tseries, where neurons were modeled as spheres devoid of processes. The background subtraction is described in the Methods on page 39:

      F(t) was computed frame-by-frame as the difference between the average signal of pixels in each ROI and the background signal. The background was calculated as the average signal of pixels that: i) did not belong to any bounding box; ii) had intensity values higher than the mean noise value measured in pixels located at the corners of the rectangular image, which do not belong to the circular FOV of the microendoscope; iii) had intensity values lower than the maximum value of pixels within the boxes”.

      h) Also, what are the expected correlations between neurons in the pyriform cortex? Are there measurements in the literature with which the authors could compare their data?

      We appreciate the reviewer's interest in the correlations between neurons in the piriform cortex. The overall low correlations between piriform neurons we observed (Figure 8) are consistent with a published study describing ‘near-zero noise correlations during odor inhalation’ in the anterior piriform cortex of rats, based on extracellular recordings (Miura et al., Neuron 2013). However, to the best of our knowledge, measurements directly comparable to ours have not been described in the literature. Recent analyses of the correlations between piriform neurons were restricted to odor exposure windows, with the goal to quantify odor-specific activation patterns (e.g. Roland et al., eLife 2017; Bolding et al., eLife 2017, Pashkovski et al., Nature 2020; Wang et al., Neuron 2020). Here, we used correlation analyses to characterize the technical advancement of the optimized GRIN lens-based endoscopes. We showed that correlations of pairs of adjacent neurons were independent from radial distance (Figure 8B), highlighting homogeneous spatial resolution in the field of view.

      (2) The way the data is presented doesn't always make it easy to compare the performance of corrected and uncorrected lenses. Here are two examples:

      a) In Figures 4 to 6, it would be easier to compare the FOVs of corrected and uncorrected lenses if the scale bars (at the centre of the FOV) were identical. In this way, the neurons at the centre of the FOV would appear the same size in the two images, and the distances between the neurons at the centre of the FOV would appear similar. Here, the scale bar is significantly larger for the corrected lenses, which may give the illusion of a larger effective FOV.

      We appreciate the Referee’s comment. Below, we explain why we believe that the way we currently present imaging data in the manuscript is preferable:

      (1) current figures show images of the acquired FOV as they are recorded from the microscope (raw data), without rescaling. In this way, we exactly show what potential users will obtain when using a corrected microendoscope.

      (2) In the current version of the figures, the fact that the pixel size is not homogeneous across the FOV, nor equal between uncorrected and corrected microendoscopes, is initially shown in Figure 3E, F and then explicitly stated throughout the manuscript when images acquired with a corrected microendoscope are shown.

      (3) Rescaling images acquired with the corrected endoscopes gives the impression that the acquisition parameters were different between acquisitions with the corrected and uncorrected microendoscopes, which was not the case.

      Importantly, the larger FOV of the corrected microendoscope, which is one of the important technological achievements presented in this study, can be appreciated in the images regardless of the presentation format.

      b) In Figures 3A-D it would be more informative to plot the distances in microns rather than pixels. This would also allow a better comparison of the micro endoscopes (as the pixel sizes seem to be different for the corrected and uncorrected micro endoscopes).

      The Referee is correct that the pixel size is different between the corrected and uncorrected probes. This is because of the different magnification factor introduced by the corrective microlens, as described in Figure 3E, F. The rationale for showing images in Figure 3AD in pixels rather than microns is the following:

      (1) Optical simulations in Figure 1 suggest that a corrective optical element is effective in compensating for some of the optical aberrations in GRIN microendoscopes.

      (2) After fabricating the corrective optical element (Figure 2), in Figure 3A-D we conduct a preliminary analysis of the effect of the corrective optical element on the optical properties of the GRIN lens. We observed that the microfabricated optical element corrected for some aberrations (e.g., astigmatism), but also that the microfabricated optical element was characterized by significant field curvature. This can be appreciated showing distances in pixels.

      (3) The observed field curvature and the aspherical profile of the corrected lens prompted us to characterize the magnification factor of the corrected endoscopes as a function of the radial distance. We found that the magnification factor changed as a function of the radial distance (Figure 3E-F) and that pixel size was different between uncorrected and corrected endoscopes. We also observed that, in corrected endoscopes, pixel size was a function of the radial distance (Figure 3E-F).

      (4) Once all of the above was established and quantified, we assigned precise pixel size to images of uncorrected and corrected endoscopes and we show all following images of the study (Figure 3G on) using a micron (rather than pixel) scale.

      (3) There seems to be a discrepancy between the performance of the long lenses (8.8 mm) in the different experiments, which should be discussed in the article. For example, the results in Figure 4 show a considerable enlargement of the FOV, whereas the results in Figure 6 show a very moderate enlargement of the distance at which the person's correlation with the first ground truth emitter starts to drop.

      Thanks for raising this point and helping us clarifying data presentation. Images in Figure 4B are average z-projections of z-stacks acquired through a mouse fixed brain slice and they were taken with the purpose of showing all the neurons that could be visualized from the same sample using an uncorrected and a corrected microendoscope. In Figure 4B, all illuminated neurons are visible regardless of whether they were imaged with high axial resolution (e.g., < 10 µm as defined in Figure 3J) or poor axial resolution. In contrast, in Figure 6J we evaluated the correlation between the calcium trace extracted from a given ROI and the real activity trace of the first simulated ground truth emitter for that specific ROI. The moderate increase in the correlation for the corrected microendoscope compared to the uncorrected microendoscope (Figure 6J) is consistent with the moderate improvement in the axial resolution of the corrected probe compared to the uncorrected probe at intermediate radial distances (60-100 µm from the optical axis, see Figure 3J). We added a paragraph in the Results section (page 14, lines 8-18) to summarize the points described above.

      a) There is also a significant discrepancy between measured and simulated optical performance, which is not discussed. Optical simulations (Figure 1) show that the useful FOV (defined as the radius for which the size of the PSF along the optical axis remains below 10µm) should be at least 90µm for the corrected microendoscopes of both lengths. However, for the long microendoscopes, Figure 3J shows that the axial resolution at 90µm is 17µm. It would be interesting to discuss the origin of this discrepancy: does it depend on the microendoscope used?

      As the Reviewer correctly pointed out, the size of simulated PSFs at a given radial distance (e.g., 90 µm) tends to be generally smaller than that of the experimentally measured PSFs. This might be due to multiple reasons:

      (1) simulated PSFs are excitation PSFs, i.e. they describe the intensity spatial distribution of focused excitation light. On the contrary, measured PSFs result from the excitation and emission process, thus they are also affected by aberrations of light emitted by fluorescent beads and collected by the microscope.

      (2) in the optical simulations, the Zemax file of the GRIN lenses contained first-order aberrations. High-order aberrations were therefore not included in simulated PSFs.

      (3) intrinsic variability of experimental measurements (e.g., intrinsic variability of the fabrication process, alignment of the microendoscope to the optical axis of the microscope, the distance between the GRIN back end and the objective…) are not considered in the simulations.

      We added a paragraph in the Discussion section (page 17, lines 9-18) summarizing the abovementioned points.

      Are there inaccuracies in the construction of the aspheric corrective lens or in the assembly with the GRIN lens? If there is variability between different lenses, how are the lenses selected for imaging experiments?

      The fabrication yield, i.e. the yield of generating the corrective lenses, using molding was ~ 90% (N > 30 molded lenses). The main limitation of this procedure was the formation of air bubbles between the mold negative and the glass coverslip. Molded lenses were visually inspected with the stereoscope and, in case of air bubble formation, they were discarded.

      The assembly yield, i.e. the yield of correct positioning of the GRIN lens with respect to the coverslip, was 100 % (N = 27 endoscopes).

      We added this information in the Methods at page 29 (lines 1-12), as follows:

      “After UV curing, the microlens was visually inspected at the stereomicroscope. In case of formation of air bubbles, the microlens was discarded (yield of the molding procedure: ~ 90 %, N > 30 molded lenses). The coverslip with the attached corrective lens was sealed to a customized metal or plastic support ring of appropriate diameter (Fig. 2C). The support ring, the coverslip and the aspherical lens formed the upper part of the corrected microendoscope, to be subsequently coupled to the proper GRIN rod (Table 2) using a custom-built opto-mechanical stage and NOA63 (Fig. 2C) 7. The GRIN rod was positioned perpendicularly to the glass coverslip, on the other side of the coverslip compared to the corrective lens, and aligned to the aspherical lens perimeter (Fig. 2C) under the guidance of a wide field microscope equipped with a camera. The yield of the assembly procedure for the probes used in this work was 100 % (N = 27 endoscopes). For further details on the assembly of corrected microendoscope see(7)”.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Page 4, what is meant by 'ad-hoc" in describing software control?

      With “ad-hoc” we meant “specifically designed”. We revised the text to make this clear.

      (2) It was hard to tell how the PSF was modeled for the simulations (especially on page 34, describing the two spherical shells of the astigmatic PSF and ellipsoids modeled along them). Images or especially videos that show the modeling would make this easier to follow.

      Simulated calcium t-series were generated following previous work by our group (Antonini et al., eLife 2020), as stated in the Methods on page 37 (line 5). In Figure 4A of Antonini et al. eLife 2020, we provided a schematic to visually describe the procedure of simulated data generation. In the present paper, we decided not to include a similar drawing and cite the eLife 2020 article to avoid redundancy.

      (3) Some math symbols are missing from the methods in my version of the text (page 36/37).

      We apologize for the inconvenience. This issue arose in the PDF conversion of our Word document and we did not spot it at the time of submission. We will now make sure the PDF version of our manuscript correctly reports symbols and equations.

      (4) The Z extent of stacks (i.e. number of steps) used to generate images in Figure 4 is missing.

      We thank the Reviewer for the comment and we now revised the caption of Figure 4 and the Methods section as follows:

      “Figure 4. Aberration correction in long GRIN lens-based microendoscopes enables highresolution imaging of biological structures over enlarged FOVs. A) jGCaMP7f-stained neurons in a fixed mouse brain slice were imaged using 2PLSM (λexc = 920 nm) through an uncorrected (left) and a corrected (right) microendoscope based on the 6.4 mm-long GRIN rod. Images are maximum fluorescence intensity (F) projections of a z-stack acquired with a 5 μm step size. Number of steps: 32 and 29 for uncorrected and corrected microendoscope, respectively. Scale bars: 50 μm. Left: the scale applies to the entire FOV. Right, the scale bar refers only to the center of the FOV; off-axis scale bar at any radial distance (x and y axes) is locally determined multiplying the length of the drawn scale bar on-axis by the corresponding normalized magnification factor shown in the horizontal color-coded bar placed below the image (see also Fig. 3, Supplementary Table 3, and Materials and Methods for more details). B) Same results for the microendoscope based on the 8.8 mm-long GRIN rod. Number of steps: 23 and 31 for uncorrected and corrected microendoscope, respectively”.

      We also modified the text in the Methods (page 35, lines 1-2):

      “(1024 pixels x 1024 pixels resolution; nominal pixel size: 0.45 µm/pixel; axial step: 5 µm; number of axial steps: 23-32; frame averaging = 8)”.

      (5) Overall, the text is wordy and a bit repetitive and could be cut down significantly in length without loss of clarity. This is true throughout, but especially when comparing the introduction and discussion.

      We edited the text (Discussion and Introduction), as suggested by the Reviewer.

      (6) Although I don't think it's necessary, I would advise including comparison data with an uncorrected endoscope in the same in vivo preparation.

      We thank the Referee for the suggestion. Below, we list the reasons why we decided not to perform the comparison between the uncorrected and corrected endoscopes in the in vivo preparation:

      (1) We believe that the comparison between uncorrected and corrected endoscopes is better performed in fixed tissue (Figure 4) or in simulated calcium data (Figure 5-6), rather than in vivo recordings (Figure 7). In fact, in the brain of living mice motion artifacts, changes in fluorophore expression level, variation in the optical properties of the brain (e.g., the presence of a blood vessel over the FOV) may make the comparison of images acquired with uncorrected and corrected microendoscopes difficult, requiring a large number of animals to cancel out the contributions of all these factors. Comparing optical properties in fixed tissue is, in contrast, devoid of these confounding factors.

      (2) A major advantage of quantifying how the optical properties of uncorrected and corrected endoscope impact on the ability to extract information about neuronal activity in simulated calcium data is that, under simulated conditions, we can count on a known ground truth as reference (e.g., how many neurons are in the FOV, where they are, and which is their electrical activity). This is clearly not possible under in vivo conditions.

      (3) The proposed experiment requires to perform imaging in the awake mouse with a corrected microendoscope, then anesthetize the animal to carefully remove the corrective microlens using forceps, and finally repeat the optical recordings in awake mice with the uncorrected microendoscope. Although this is feasible (we performed the proposed experiment in Antonini et al. eLife 2020 using a 4.1 mm-long microendoscope), the yield of success of these experiments is low. The low yield is due to the fact that the mechanical force applied on top of the microendoscope to remove the corrective microlens may induce movement of the GRIN lens inside the brain, both in vertical and horizontal directions. This can randomly result in change of the focal plane, death or damage of the cells, tissue inflammation, and bleeding. From our own experience, the number of animals used for this experiment is expected to be high.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Below, I provide a few minor corrections and suggestions for the authors to consider before final submission.

      (1) Page 5: when referring to Table 1 maybe add "Table 1 and Methods".

      Following the Reviewer’s comment, we revised the text at page 6 (lines 4-5 from bottom) as follows:

      “(see Supplementary Table 1 and Materials and Methods for details on simulation parameters)”.

      (2) Page 8: "We set a threshold of 10 µm on the axial resolution to define the radius of the effective FOV (corresponding to the black triangles in Fig. 3I, J) in uncorrected and corrected microendoscopes. We observed an enlargement of the effective FOV area of 4.7 times and 2.3 times for the 6.4 mm-long micro endoscope and the 8.8 mm-long micro endoscope, respectively (Table 1). These findings were in agreement with the results of the ray-trace simulations (Figure 1) and the measurement of the subresolved fluorescence layers (Figure 3AD)." I could not find the information given in this paragraph, specifically:

      a) Upon examining the black triangles in Figure 3I and J, the enlargement of the effective FOV does not appear to be 4.7 and 2.3 times.

      In Figure 3I, J, black triangles mark the intersections between the curves fitting the data and the threshold of 10 µm on the axial resolution. The values on the x-axis corresponding to the intersections (Table 1, “Effective FOV radius”) represent the estimated radius of the effective FOV of the probes, i.e. the radius within which the microendoscope has spatial resolution below the threshold of 10 μm. The ratios of the effective FOV radii are 2.17 and 1.53 for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscope, respectively, which correspond to 4.7 and 2.3 times larger FOV (Table 1). To make this point clearer, we modified the indicated sentence as follows (page 10, lines 3-11 from bottom):

      “We set a threshold of 10 µm on the axial resolution to define the radius of the effective FOV (corresponding to the black triangles in Fig. 3I, J) in uncorrected and corrected microendoscopes. We observed a relative increase of the effective FOV radius of 2.17 and 1.53 for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscope, respectively (Table 1). This corresponded to an enlargement of the effective FOV area of 4.7 times and 2.3 times for the 6.4 mm-long microendoscope and the 8.8

      mm-long microendoscope, respectively (Table 1). These findings were in agreement with the results of the ray-trace simulations (Figure 1) and the measurement of the subresolved fluorescence layers (Figure 3A-D)."

      b) I do not understand how the enlargements in Figure 3I and J align with the ray trace simulations in Figure 1, indicating an enlargement of 5.4 and 5.6.

      In Figure 1C, E of the first submission we showed the Strehl ratio of focal spots focalized after the microendoscope, in the object plane, as a function of radial distance from the optical axis of focal spots focalized in the focal plane at the back end of the GRIN rod (“Objective focal plane” in Figure 1A, B), before the light has traveled along the GRIN lens. After reading the Referee’s comment, we realized this choice does not facilitate the comparison between Figure 1 and Figure 3I, J. We therefore decided to modify Figure 1C, E by showing the Strehl ratio of focal spots focalized after the microendoscope as a function of their radial distance from the optical axis in the objet plane (where the Strehl ratio is computed), after the light has traveled through the GRIN lens (radial distances are still computed on a plane, not along the curved focal surface represented by the “imaging plane” in Figure 1 A, B). Computing radial distances in the object space, we found that the relative increase in the radius of the FOV due to the correction of aberrations was 3.50 and 3.35 for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscope, respectively. We also revised the manuscript text accordingly (page 7, lines 6-8):

      “The simulated increase in the radius of the diffraction-limited FOV was 3.50 times and 3.35 times for the 6.4 mm-long and 8.8 mm-long probe, respectively (Fig. 1C, E)”. We believe this change should facilitate the comparison of the data presented in Figure 1 and Figure 3.

      Moreover, in comparing results in Figure 1 and Figure 3, it is important to keep in mind that:

      (1) the definitions of the effective FOV radius were different in simulations (Figure 1) and real measurements (Figure 3). In simulations, we considered a theoretical criterion (Maréchal criterion) and set the lower threshold for a diffraction-limited FOV to a Strehl ratio value of 0.8. In real measures, the effective FOV radius obtained from fluorescent bead measurements was defined based on the empirical criterion of setting the upper threshold for the axial resolution to 10 µm.

      (2) the Zemax file of the GRIN lenses contained low-order aberrations and not high-order aberrations.

      (3) the small variability in some of the experimental parameters (e.g., the distance between the GRIN back end and the focusing objective) were not reflected in the simulations.

      Given the reasons listed above, it is expected that the prediction of the simulations do not perfectly match the experimental measurements and tend to predict larger improvements of aberration correction than the experimentally measured ones.

      c) Finally, how can the enlargement in Figure 3I be compared to the measurements of the sub-resolved fluorescence layers in Figures 3A-D? Could the authors please clarify these points?

      When comparing measurements of subresolved fluorescent films and beads it is important to keep in mind that the two measures have different purposes and spatial resolution. We used subresolved fluorescent films to visualize the shape and extent of the focal surface of microendoscopes in a continuous way along the radial dimension (in contrast to bead measurements that are quantized in space). This approach comes at the cost of spatial resolution, as we are using fluorescent layers, which are subresolved in the axial but not in the radial dimension. Therefore, fluorescent film profiles are not used in our study to extract relevant quantitative information about effective FOV enlargement or spatial resolution of corrected microendoscopes. In contrast, to quantitatively characterize axial and lateral resolutions we used measurements of 100 nm-diameter fluorescent beads (therefore subresolved in the x, y, and z dimensions) located at different radial distances from the center of the FOV, using a much smaller nominal pixel size compared to the fluorescent films (beads, lateral resolution: 0.049 µm/pixel, axial resolution: 0.5 µm/pixel; films, lateral resolution: 1.73 µm/pixel, axial resolution: 2 µm/pixel).

      (3) On page 15, the statement "significantly enlarge the FOV" should be more specific by providing the actual values for the increase. It would also be good to mention that this is not a xy lateral increase; rather, as one moves further from the center, more of the imaged cells belong to axially different planes.

      The values of the experimentally determined FOV enlargements (4.7 times and 2.3 times for 6.4 mm- and 8.8 mm-long microendoscope, respectively) are provided in Table 1 and are now referenced on page 10. Following the Referee’s request, we added the following sentence in the discussion (page 18, lines 10-14) to underline that the extended FOV samples on different axial positions because of the field curvature effect:

      “It must be considered, however, that the extended FOV achieved by our aberration correction method was characterized by a curved focal plane. Therefore, cells located in different radial positions within the image were located at different axial positions and cells at the border of the FOV were closer to the front end of the microendoscope”.

      (4) On page 36, most of the formulas appear to be corrupted. This may have occurred during the conversion to the merged PDF. Please verify this and check for similar problems in other equations throughout the text as well.

      We apologize for the inconvenience. This issue arose in the PDF conversion of our Word document and we did not spot it upon submission. We will now make sure the PDF version of our manuscript correctly reports symbols and equations.

      (5) In the discussion, the authors could potentially add comments on how the verified performance of the corrective lenses depends on the wavelength and mention the range within which the wavelength can be changed without the need to redesign a new corrective lens.

      Following this comments and those of other Reviewers, we explored the effect of changing wavelength on the Strehl ratio using new Zemax simulations. We found that the Strehl ratio remains > 0.8 within ± at least 10 nm from λ = 920 nm (new Supplementary Figure 1A-D, left panels), which covers the limited bandwidth of our femtosecond laser. Moreover, these simulations demonstrate that, on a much wider wavelength range (800 - 1040 nm), high Strehl ratio is obtained but at different z planes (new Supplementary Figure 1A-D, right panels). These new results are now described on page 7 (lines 8-10).

      (6) Also, they could discuss if and how the corrective lens could be integrated into fiberscopes for freely moving experiments.

      Following the Referee’s suggestion, we added a short text in the Discussion (page 21, lines 4-7 from bottom). It reads:

      “Another advantage of long corrected microendoscopes described here over adaptive optics approaches is the possibility to couple corrected microendoscopes with portable 2P microscopes(42-44), allowing high resolution functional imaging of deep brain circuits on an enlarged FOV during naturalistic behavior in freely moving mice”.

      (7) Finally, since the main advantage of this approach is its simplicity, the authors should also comment on or outline the steps to follow for potential users who are interested in using the corrective lenses in their systems.

      Thanks for this comment. The Materials and Methods section of this study and that of Antonini et al. eLife 2020 describe in details the experimental steps necessary to reproduce corrective lenses and apply them to their experimental configuration.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Suggestions for improved or additional experiments, data, or analyses, and Recommendations for improving the writing and presentation:

      See Public Review.

      Please see our point-by-point response above.

      (2) Minor corrections on text and figures: a) Figure 6A: is the fraction of cells expressed in %?

      Author response: yes, that is correct. Thank you for spotting it. We added the “%” symbol to the y label.

      b) Figurer 8A, left: The second line is blue and not red dashed. In addition, it could be interesting to also show a line corresponding to the 0 value.

      Thank you for the suggestions. We modified Figure 8 according to the Referee’s comments.

      c) Some parts of equation (1) and some variables in the Material and Methods section are missing

      We apologize for the inconvenience. This issue arose in the PDF conversion of our Word document and we did not spot it upon submission. We will now make sure the PDF version of our manuscript correctly reports symbols and equations.

      d) In the methods, the authors mention a calibration ruler with ticks spaced every 10 µm along two orthogonal directions and refer to the following product: 4-dot calibration slide, Cat. No. 1101002300142, Motic, Hong Kong. However, this product does not seem to correspond to a calibration ruler.

      We double check. The catalog number 1101002300142 is correct and product details can be found at the following link:

      https://moticmicroscopes.com/products/calibration-slide-4-dots-1101002300142?srsltid=AfmBOorGYx9PcXtAlIMmSs_tEpxS4nX21qIcV8Kfn4qGwizQK3LYOQn3

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We are grateful to the reviewers for their appreciation of our study and thoughtful comments. In response to the main concern raised by all reviewers regarding the potential influences of external noise factors on intuitive inference, such as external disturbances or imperfect observations, we have conducted three new experiments suggested by the reviewers. These experiments were designed to: (1) assess the influence of external forces on humans’ judgments by implementing a wall to block wind disturbances from one direction, (2) examine human accuracy in predicting the landing position of a falling ball when its trajectory is obscured, and (3) evaluate the effect of object geometry on human judgment of stability. The findings from these experiments consistently support our proposal of the stochastic world model on gravity embedded in human mind. Besides, we have also addressed the rest comments from the reviewers in a one-by-one fashion.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As mentioned in the public review, I did not find it entirely convincing that the study shows evidence for a Gaussian understanding of gravity. There are two studies that would bolster this claim: 1. Replicate experiment 1, but also ask people to infer whether there was a hidden force. If people are truly representing gravity as proposed in the paper, you should get no force inferences. However, if the reason the Gaussian gravity model works is that people infer unseen forces, this should come out clearly in this study.

      Author response image 1.

      Wall experiment to test the impact of external forces on the measurement of stochastic gravity. (a) Experimental setting. We replicated the original setup with the addition of a wall implemented on one side. Left: the overall experimental scene; Right, the scene shown to participants. (b) Human behaviors. Three participants conducted this experiment, and their responses consistently showed normal distributions without any skewness, suggesting that their judgments were not affected by the presence of the wall. These results support our claim that humans’ judgments on stability were not affected by potential concerns regarding external forces.

      R1: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. To directly test whether participants’ judgments were influenced by their implicit assumptions about external forces, we duplicated the original experimental setup with the addition of a wall implemented on one side (Supplementary Figure 4A). Before the start of the experiment, we explicitly informed the participants that the wall was designed to block wind, ensuring that any potential wind forces from the direction of the wall would not influence the collapse. If participants’ judgments were affected by external noise, we would expect to observe a skewed angle distribution. Contrary to this prediction, our results showed a normal distribution across all three participants tested (1 female; ages: 24-30), similar to the experiment without the wall (Supplementary Figure 4B). Therefore, the stochastic nature of intuitive inference on objects’ stability is embedded in the mind, not shaped by external forces or explicit instructions.

      This new experiment has been added to the revised manuscript

      Line 166-168: “…, and remained unchanged with the addition of a wall on one side to block potential external disturbances from wind (Supplementary Figure 4).”

      (2) Similarly, you can imagine a simple study where you drop an object behind a floating occluder and you check where people produce an anticipatory fixation (i.e., where do they think the object will come out?). If people have a stochastic representation of gravity, this should be reflected in their fixations. But my guess is that everyone will look straight down.

      Author response image 2.

      Trajectory experiment to test the stochastic nature of gravity represented in the mind. (a) Experiment design. In this experiment, participants were required to use a mouse to determine the landing point of a parabolic trajectory (marked by the green dot), obscured by a grey rectangle. Note that the parabolic trajectory was determined only by gravity, and no external disturbances were introduced. The parameters used in this experiment are detailed in the upper right corner. (b) Predictive errors from three participants. The predictive errors from all three participants conform to Gaussian distributions with non-negligible variances. These results suggest the notion of an inherent stochastic property of gravity represented in the mind.

      R2: We thank the reviewer for suggesting this thought experiment. However, when predicting the landing point of a falling object, participants may rely more on learned knowledge that an unimpeded object continues to fall in a straight line, rather than drawing on their intuitive physics. To avoid this potential confounding factor, we designed a similar experiment where participants were asked to predict the landing point of a parabolic trajectory, obscured by an occluder (Author response image 2A). In each trial, participants used a mouse (clicking the left button) to predict the landing point of each parabolic trajectory, and there were 100 trials in total. This design not only limits the impact of direct visual cues but also actively engages the mental simulation of intuitive physics. All three participants (1 female; ages: 24-30) were unable to accurately predict the landing points of the trajectories, and the predictive errors conformed to Gaussian distributions with different variances (Author response image 2B). Therefore, this new experiment confirms the stochastic nature of intuitive physics.

      (3) I believe the correct alternative model should be the one that has uncertainty over unseen forces, which better captures current proposals in the field, and controls for the amount of uncertainty in the models.

      R3: We thank the reviewers for the above-mentioned suggestions, and the findings from these two new experiments reinforce our proposal regarding the inherent stochastic characteristic of how the mind represents gravity.

      (4) I was not convinced that the RL framework was set up correctly to tackle the questions it claims to tackle. What this shows is that you can evolve a world model with Gaussian gravity in a setup that has no external perturbations. That does not imply that that is how humans evolved their intuitive physics, particularly when creatures have evolved in a world full of external perturbations. Showing that when (1) there are hidden perturbations, and (2) these perturbations are learnable, but (3) the model nonetheless just learns stochastic gravity, would be a more convincing result.

      R4: We completely agree with the reviewer that the RL framework serves primarily as a theoretic model to explain the stochastic nature of the world model on gravity, rather than as a demonstration of the developmental origins of intuitive physics abilities. The genesis of such abilities is multifaceted and unlikely to be fully replicated through a simple simulation like RL. Therefore, the purpose of incorporating the RL framework in our study is to demonstrate that external perturbances are not necessary for the development of a stochastic representation of gravity. In fact, introducing additional external noise into the RL framework likely heightens the uncertainty in learning gravity’s direction, potentially amplifying, rather than diminishing, the stochastic nature of mental gravity.

      In revision, we have clarified the role of the RL framework

      Line 265-277: “While the cognitive impenetrability and the self-consistency observed in this study, without resorting to an external perturbation, favor the stochastic model over the deterministic one, the origin of this stochastic feature of the world model is unclear.

      Here we used a reinforcement learning (RL) framework to unveil this origin, because our intelligence emerges and evolves under the constraints of the physical world. Therefore, the stochastic feature may emerge as a biological agent interacts with the environment, where the mismatches between external feedback from the environment and internal expectations from the world model are in turn used to fine-tune the world model (Friston et al., 2021; MacKay, 1956; Matsuo et al., 2022). Note that a key aspect of the framework is determining whether the stochastic nature of the world model on gravity emerges through this interaction, even in the absence of external noise.”

      (5) Some comments on the writing:

      The word 'normality' is used to refer to people's judgments about whether a tower collapsed looked 'normal'. I was a bit confused by this because normality can also mean 'Gaussian' and the experiments are also sampling from Gaussian distributions. There were several points where it took me a second to figure out which sense of 'normality' the paper was using. I would recommend using a different term.

      R5: We are sorry for the confusion. In revision, the term “normality” has been replaced with “confidence level about normal trajectory”.

      (6) One small comment is that Newton's laws are not a faithful replica of the "physical laws of the world" they are a useful simplification that only works at certain timescales. I believe some people propose Newtonian physics as a model of intuitive physics in part because it is a rapid and useful approximation of complex physical systems, and not because it is an untested assumption of perfect correspondence.

      R6: We are sorry for the inaccurate expression. We have revised our statements in the manuscript Line 15-16: “We found that the world model on gravity was not a faithful replica of the physical laws, but instead encoded gravity’s vertical direction as a Gaussian distribution.”

      (7) Line 49-50: Based on Fig 1d, lower bound of possible configurations for 10 blocks is ~17 in log-space, which is about 2.5e7. But the line here says it's 3.72e19, which is much larger. Sorry if I am missing something.

      R7: We thank the reviewer to point out this error. We re-calculated the number of possible configurations using the formula (3) in the appendix, and the number of configurations with 10 blocks is:

      Thus,

      This estimated number is much larger than that in our previous calculation, which has been corrected in the revised text.

      Line 827-829: “d) The lower bound of configurations’ possible number and the number of blocks in a stack followed an exponential relationship with a base of 10. The procedure can create at least 1.14×1050 configurations for stacks consisting of 10 blocks.”

      Line 49-50: “… but the universal cardinality of possible configurations is at least 1.14×1050 (Supplementary Figure 1), …”

      Line 1017-1018: “… the number of configurations can be estimated with formula (9), which is 1.14×1050.”

      (8) Lines 77-78: "A widely adopted but not rigorously tested assumption is that the world model in the brain is a faithful replica of the physical laws of the world." This risks sounding like you are asserting that colleagues in the field do not rigorously test their models. I think you meant to say that they did not 'directly test', rather than 'rigorously test'. If you meant rigorous, you might want to say more to justify why you think past work was not rigorous.

      R8: We apologize for the inappropriate wording, the sentence has been revised and we illustrate the motivation more comprehensively in the revised text,

      Line 76-92: “A prevailing theory suggests that the world model in the brain accurately mirrors the physical laws of the world (Allen et al., 2020; Battaglia et al., 2013; Zhou et al., 2022). For example, the direction of gravity encoded in the world model, a critical factor in stability inference, is assumed to be straight downward, aligning with its manifestation in the physical world. To explain the phenomenon that tall and thin objects are subjectively perceived as more unstable compared to short and fat ones (Supplementary Figure 2), external noise, such as imperfect perception and assumed external forces, is introduced to influence the output of the model. However, when the brain actively transforms sensory data into cognitive understanding, these data can become distorted (Kriegeskorte and Douglas, 2019; Naselaris et al., 2011), hereby introducing uncertainty into the representation of gravity’s direction. In this scenario, the world model inherently incorporates uncertainty, eliminating the need for additional external noise to explain the inconsistency between subjective perceptions of stability and the actual stability of objects. Note that this distinction of these two theories is nontrivial: the former model implies a deterministic representation of the external world, while the latter suggests a stochastic approach.”

      (9) Lines 79-84 States that past models encode gravity downward. It then says that alternatively there is consensus that the brain uses data from sensory organs and adds meaning to them. I think there might be a grammatical error here because I did not follow why saying there is 'consensus' on something is a theoretical alternative. I also had trouble following why those two statements are in opposition. Is any work on physics engines claiming the brain does not take data from sensory organs and add meaning to them?

      R9: We are sorry for the confusion. Here we intend to contrast the deterministic model (i.e., the uncertainty comes from outside the model) with the stochastic model (i.e., the uncertainty is inherently built into the model). In revision, we have clarified the intention. For details, please see R8.

      (10) Lines 85-88: Following on the sentence above, you then conclude that the representation of the world may therefore not be the same as reality. I did not understand why this followed. It seems you are saying that, because the brain takes data from sensory organs, therefore its representations may differ from reality.

      R10: Again, we are sorry about the confusion. Please see the revised text in R8.

      (11) Lines 190-191: I had trouble understanding this sentence. I believe you are missing an adjective to clarify that participants were more inclined to judge taller stacks as more likely to collapse.

      R11: We are sorry for the confusion. What we intended to state here is that participants’ judgment was biased, showing a tendency to predict a collapse for stacks regardless of their actual stability. We have revised this confusing sentence in the revision. Line 202–204: “However, the participants showed an obvious bias towards predicting a collapse for stacks regardless of their actual stability, as the dots in Fig 2b are more concentrated on the lower side of the diagonal line.”

      (12) Line 201: I don't think it's accurate to say that MGS "perfectly captured participants' judgments" unless the results are actually perfect.

      R12: We agree, and in revision we have toned down the statement Line 213–214: “…, the MGS, in contrast to the NGS, more precisely reflected participants’ judgments of stability …”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I think this is an impressive set of experiments and modeling work. The paper is nicely written and I appreciate the poetic license the authors took at places in the manuscript. I only have clarification points and suggest a simple experiment that could lend further support to their conclusions. 1. In my opinion, the impact of this work is twofold. First, the suggestion that gravity is represented as a distribution of the world and not a result of (inferred) external perturbations. Second, that the distribution is advantageous as it balances speed and accuracy, and lessens computational processing demands (i.e., number of simulations). The second point here is contingent on the first point, which is really only supported by the RL model and potentially the inverted scene condition. I am somewhat surprised that the RL model does not converge on a width much smaller than ~20 degrees after 100,000 simulations. From my understanding, it was provided feedback with collapses based on natural gravity (deterministically downward). Why is learning so slow and the width so large? Could it be the density of the simulated world model distribution? If the model distribution of Qs was too dense, then Q-learning would take forever. If the model distribution was too sparse, then its final estimate would hit a floor of precision. Could the authors provide more details on the distribution of the Qs for the RL model?

      Author response image 3.

      RL learning curves as a function of θ angle with different sampling densities and learning rates. Learning rates were adjusted to low (a), intermediate (b) and high (c) settings, while sampling densities were chosen at four levels: 5x5, 11x11, 31x31, and 61x61 shown from the left to the right. Two key observations emerged from the simulations as the reviewer predicted. First, higher learning rates resulted in a more rapid decline in learning curves but introduced larger variances. Second, increased sampling density necessitated more iterations for convergence. Note that in all simulations, we limited the iterations to 1,000 times (as opposed to 100,000 times reported in the manuscript) to demonstrate the trend without excessive computational demands.

      R1: To illustrate the distribution of the Q-values for the RL model, we re-ran the RL model with various learning rates and sampling densities (Author response image 3). These results support the reviewer’s prediction that higher learning rates resulted in a more rapid decline in learning curves but introduced larger variances, and increased sampling density requires more iterations for convergence.

      This simulation also elucidates the slower learning observed in the experiment described in the text, where the force sphere was divided into 61x61 angle pairs, and the learning rate was set to 0.15. This set of parameters ensured convergence within a reasonable brief timeframe while maintaining high-resolution force assessments.

      Besides, the width of the Gaussian distribution is mainly determined by the complexity of stacks. As shown in Figure 3c and Supplementary Figure 9, stacks with fewer blocks (i.e., less complex) caused a larger width, whereas those with more blocks resulted in a narrower spread. In the study, we used a collection of stacks varying from 2 to 15 blocks to simulate the range of stacks humans typically encounter in daily life.

      In revision, we have incorporated these insights suggested by the reviewer to clarify the performance of the RL framework:

      Line 634-639: “The angle density and learning rate are two factors that affect the learning speed. A larger angle density prolongs the time to reach convergence but enables a more detailed force space; a higher learning rate accelerates convergence but incurs larger variance during training. To balance speed and convergence, we utilized 100,000 configurations for the training.”

      Line 618-619: “…, separately divided them into 61 sampling angles across the spherical force space (i.e., the angle density).”

      (2) Along similar lines, the authors discuss the results of the inverted science condition as reflecting cognitive impenetrability. However, do they also interpret it as support for an intrinsically noisy distribution of gravity? I would be more convinced if they created a different scene that could have the possibility of affecting the direction of an (inferred) external perturbation - a previously held explanation of the noisy world model. For example, a relatively simple experiment would be to have a wall on one side of the scene such that an external perturbation would be unlikely to be inferred from that direction. In the external perturbation account, phi would then be affected resulting in a skewed distribution of angle pairs. However, in the authors' stochastic world model phi would remain unaffected resulting in the same uniform distribution of phi the authors observed. In my opinion, this would provide more compelling evidence for the stochastic world model.

      Author response image 4.

      Wall experiment to test the impact of external forces on the measurement of stochastic gravity. (a) Experimental setting. We replicated the original setup with the addition of a wall implemented on one side. Left: the overall experimental scene; Right, the scene shown to participants. (b) Human behaviors. Three participants conducted this experiment, and their responses consistently showed normal distributions without any skewness, suggesting that their judgments were not affected by the presence of the wall. These results support our claim that humans’ judgments on stability were not affected by potential concerns regarding external forces.

      R2: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Following the reviewer’s concern, we designed the experiment with the addition of a wall implemented on one side (Supplementary figure 4A). We explicitly informed the participants that the wall was designed to block wind before the start of the experiment, ensuring no potential wind forces from the direction of the wall to influence the collapse trajectory of configurations. Participants need to judge if the trajectory was normal. If participants’ judgments were influenced by external noises, we would expect to observe a skewed angle distribution. However, our results still showed a normal distribution across all participants tested, consistent with the experiment without the wall (Supplementary figure 4B). This experiment suggested the stochastic nature of intuitive inference on objects’ stability is embedded in the mind, rather than shaped by external forces or explicit instructions.

      We revised the original manuscript, and added this new experiment

      Line 166-168: “…, and remained unchanged with the addition of a wall on one side to block potential external disturbances from wind (Supplementary Figure 4).”

      (3) I didn't completely follow the authors' explanation for the taller objects illusion. On lines 229-232, the authors state that deviations from gravity's veridical direction are likely to accumulate with the height of the objects. Is this because, in the stochastic world model account, each block gets its own gravity vector that is sampled from the distribution? The authors should clarify this more explicitly. If this is indeed the author's claim, then it would seem that it could be manipulated by varying the dimensions of the blocks (or whatever constitutes an object).

      R3: We are sorry for the confusion caused by the use of the term ‘accumulate’. In the study, there is only one gravity vector sampled from the distribution for the entire structure, rather than each block having a unique gravity vector. The height illusion is attributed to the fact that the center of gravity in taller objects is more susceptible to influence when gravity deviates slightly from a strictly downward direction. This is especially true for objects consisting of multiple blocks stacked atop one another. In revision, we have removed the confusing term ‘accumulate’ for clarification.

      Line 242-244: “…, because the center of gravity in taller objects is more susceptible to influence when gravity deviates slightly from a strictly downward direction during humans’ internal simulations.”

      (4) The authors refer to the RL simulations as agent-environment interactions, but in reality, the RL model does not interact with the blocks. Would experience-dependent or observation be more apropos?

      R4: We completely agree. Indeed, the RL model did not manipulate stacks; rather, it updated its knowledge of natural gravity based on the discrepancies between the RL model’s predictions and observed outcomes. In revision, we have removed the confusing term ‘agent-environment interactions’ and clarified its intended meaning.

      Line 19-22: “Furthermore, a computational model with reinforcement learning revealed that the stochastic characteristic likely originated from experience-dependent comparisons between predictions formed by internal simulations and the realities observed in the external world, …”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      (1) In spite of the fact that the Mental Gravity Simulation (MGS) seems to predict the data of the two experiments, it is an untenable hypothesis. I give the main reason for this conclusion by illustrating a simple thought experiment. Suppose you ask subjects to determine whether a single block (like those used in the simulations) is about to fall. We can think of blocks of varying heights. No matter how tall a block is, if it is standing on a horizontal surface it will not fall until some external perturbation disturbs its equilibrium. I am confident that most human observers would predict this outcome as well. However, the MSG simulation would not produce this outcome. Instead, it would predict a non-zero probability of the block to tip over. A gravitational field that is not perpendicular to the base has the equivalent effect of a horizontal force applied on the block at the height corresponding to the vertical position of the center of gravity. Depending on the friction determined by the contact between the base of the block and the surface where it stands there is a critical height where any horizontal force being applied would cause the block to fall while pivoting about one of the edges at the base (the one opposite to where the force has been applied). This critical height depends on both the size of the base and the friction coefficient. For short objects this critical height is larger than the height of the object, so that object would not fall. But for taller blocks, this is not the case. Indeed, the taller the block the smaller the deviation from a vertical gravitational field is needed for a fall to be expected. The discrepancy between this prediction and the most likely outcome of the simple experiment I have just outlined makes the MSG model implausible. Note also that a gravitational field that is not perpendicular to the ground surface is equivalent to the force field experienced by the block while standing on an inclined plane. For small friction values, the block is expected to slide down the incline, therefore another prediction of this MSG model is that when we observe an object on a surface exerting negligible friction (think of a puck on ice) we should expect that object to spontaneously move. But of course, we don't, as we do not expect tall objects that are standing to suddenly fall if left unperturbed. In summary, a stochastic world model cannot explain these simple observations.

      Author response image 5.

      Differentiating Subjectivity from Objectivity. In both Experiment 1 (a) and Experiment 2 (b), participants were instructed to determine which shape appeared most stable. Objectively, in the absence of external forces, all shapes possess equal stability. Yet, participants typically perceived the shape on the left as the most stable because of its larger base area. The discrepancy between objective realities and subjective feelings, as we propose, is attributed to the human mind representing gravity’s direction as a Gaussian distribution, rather than as a singular value pointing directly downward.

      R1: We agree with the reviewer that objects will remain stable until disturbed by external forces. However, in many cases, this is a clear discrepancy between objective realities and subjective feelings. For example, electromagnetic waves associated with purple and red colors are the farthest in the electromagnetic space, yet purple and red are the closest colors in the color space. Similarly, as shown in Supplementary Figure 4, in reality all shapes possess equal stability in the absence of external forces. Yet, humans typically perceive the shape on the left as more stable because of its larger base area. In this study, we tried to explore the mechanism underlying this discrepancy by proposing that the human mind represents gravity’s direction as a Gaussian distribution, rather than as a singular value pointing directly downward.

      In revision, we have clarified the rationale of this study

      Line 76-98: “A prevailing theory suggests that the world model in the brain accurately mirrors the physical laws of the world (Allen et al., 2020; Battaglia et al., 2013; Zhou et al., 2022). For example, the direction of gravity encoded in the world model, a critical factor in stability inference, is assumed to be straight downward, aligning with its manifestation in the physical world. To explain the phenomenon that tall and thin objects are subjectively perceived as more unstable compared to short and fat ones (Supplementary Figure 2), external noise, such as imperfect perception and assumed external forces, is introduced to influence the output of the model. However, when the brain actively transforms sensory data into cognitive understanding, these data can become distorted (Kriegeskorte and Douglas, 2019; Naselaris et al., 2011), hereby introducing uncertainty into the representation of gravity’s direction. In this scenario, the world model inherently incorporates uncertainty, eliminating the need for additional external noise to explain the inconsistency between subjective perceptions of stability and the actual stability of objects. Note that this distinction of these two theories is nontrivial: the former model implies a deterministic representation of the external world, while the latter suggests a stochastic approach. Here, we investigated these two alternative hypotheses regarding the construction of the world model in the brain by examining how gravity’s direction is represented in the world model when participants judged object stability.”

      (2) The question remains as to how we can interpret the empirical data from the two experiments and their agreement with the predictions of the stochastic world model if we assume that the brain has internalized a vertical gravitational field. First, we need to look more closely at the questions posed to the subjects in the two experiments. In the first experiment, subjects are asked about how "normal" a fall of a block construction looks. Subjects seem to accept 50% of the time a fall is normal when the gravitational field is about 20 deg away from the vertical direction. The authors conclude that according to the brain, such an unusual gravitational field is possible. However, there are alternative explanations for these findings that do not require a perceptual error in the estimation of the direction of gravity. There are several aspects of the scene that may be misjudged by the observer. First, the 3D interpretation of the scene and the 3D motion of the objects can be inaccurate. Indeed, the simulation of a normal fall uploaded by the authors seems to show objects falling in a much weaker gravitational field than the one on Earth since the blocks seem to fall in "slow motion". This is probably because the perceived height of the structure is much smaller than the simulated height. In general, there are even more severe biases affecting the perception of 3D structures that depend on many factors, for instance, the viewpoint.

      R2: We thank the reviewer for highlighting several potential confounding factors in our study. We address each of these concerns point-by-point:

      (a) Misinterpretation of the 3D scene and motion. In Response Figure 4 shown above, there is no 3D structure, yet participants’ judgment on stability still deviated from objective realities. In addition, the introduction of 3D motion was to aid in understanding the stacks’ 3D structure. Previous studies without 3D motion have reported similar findings (Allen et al., 2020). Therefore, regardless of whether objects are presented in 2D or 3D, or in static or in motion formats, humans’ judgment on object stability appears consistent.

      (b) Errors in perceived height. While there might be discrepancies between perceived and simulated heights, such errors are systematic across all conditions. Therefore, they may affect the width of the Gaussian distribution but do not fundamentally alter its existence.

      (c) The viewpoint. In one experiment, we inverted gravity’s direction to point upward, diverging from common daily experience. Despite this change in viewpoint, the Gaussian distribution was still observed. That is, the viewpoint appears not a key factor in influencing how gravity’s direction is represented as a Gaussian distribution in our mental world.

      In summary, both our and previous studies (Allen et al., 2020; Battaglia et al., 2013) agree that humans’ subjective assessments of objects’ stability deviate from actual stability due to noise in mental simulation. Apart from previous studies, we suggest that this noise is intrinsic, rather than stemming from external forces or imperfect observations.

      (3) Second, the distribution of weight among the objects and the friction coefficients acting between the surfaces are also unknown parameters. In other words, there are several parameters that depend on the viewing conditions and material composition of the blocks that are unknown and need to be estimated. The authors assume that these parameters are derived accurately and only that assumption allows them to attribute the observed biases to an error in the estimate of the gravitational field. Of course, if the direction of gravity is the only parameter allowed to vary freely then it is no surprise that it explains the results. Instead, a simulation with a titled angle of gravity may give rise to a display that is interpreted as rendering a vertical gravitational field while other parameters are misperceived. Moreover, there is an additional factor that is intentionally dismissed by the authors that is a possible cause of the fall of a stack of cubes: an external force. Stacks that are initially standing should not fall all of a sudden unless some unwanted force is applied to the construction. For instance, a sudden gust of wind would create a force field on a stack that is equivalent to that produced by a tilted gravitational field. Such an explanation would easily apply to the findings of the second experiment. In that experiment subjects are explicitly asked if a stack of blocks looks "stable". This is an ambiguous question because the stability of a structure is always judged by imagining what would happen to the structure if an external perturbation is applied. The right question should be: "do you think this structure would fall if unperturbed". However, if stability is judged in the face of possible external perturbations then a tall structure would certainly be judged as less stable than a short structure occupying the same ground area. This is what the authors find. What they consider as a bias (tall structures are perceived as less stable than short structures) is instead a wrong interpretation of the mental process that determines stability. If subjects are asked the question "Is it going to fall?" then tall stacks of sound structure would be judged as stable as short stacks, just more precarious.

      R3: Indeed, the external forces suggested by the reviewer certainly influence judgments of objects’ stability. The critical question, however, is whether humans’ judgments on objects’ stability accurately mirror the actual stability of objects in the absence of external forces. To address this question, we designed two new experiments.

      Experiment 1: we duplicated the original experimental setup with the addition of a wall implemented on one side (Supplementary Figure 4A). We explicitly informed the participants that the wall could block wind, ensuring that no potential wind from the direction of the wall could influence the configuration. If participants’ judgments were affected by external noise, we would expect to observe a skewed angle distribution. Contrary to this prediction, our results showed a normal distribution across all three participants (Age: 25-30, two females), which is similar to the experiment without the wall (Supplementary Figure 4B).

      Author response image 6.

      Wall experiment to test the impact of external forces on the measurement of stochastic gravity. (a) Experimental setting. We replicated the original setup with the addition of a wall implemented on one side. Left: the overall experimental scene; Right, the scene shown to participants. (b) Human behaviors. Three participants conducted this experiment, and their responses consistently showed normal distributions without any skewness, suggesting that their judgments were not affected by the presence of the wall. These results support our claim that humans’ judgments on stability were not affected by potential concerns regarding external forces.

      Experiment 2: The second experiment adopted another paradigm to test the hypothesis of stochastic mental simulation. Consider humans to infer the landing point of a parabolic trajectory that was obscured by an occlude (Author response image 2A), the stochastic mental simulation predicted that humans’ behavior follows a Gaussian distribution. However, if humans’ judgments were influenced by external noise, the landing points could not be Gaussian. The experiment consists of 100 trials in total, and in each trial participants used a mouse to predict the landing point of each trajectory by clicking the left button. Our results found all three participants (1 female; ages: 24-30) were unable to accurately predict the landing points of the trajectories, and the predictive errors conformed to Gaussian distributions with different variances (Author response image 2B). Therefore, this new experiment confirms the stochastic nature of intuitive physics.

      Author response image 7.

      Trajectory experiment to test the stochastic nature of gravity represented in the mind. (a) Experiment design. In this experiment, participants were required to use a mouse to determine the landing point of a parabolic trajectory (marked by the green dot), obscured by a grey rectangle. Note that the parabolic trajectory was determined only by gravity, and no external disturbances were introduced. The parameters used in this experiment are detailed in the upper right corner. (b) Predictive errors from three participants. The predictive errors from all three participants conform to Gaussian distributions with non-negligible variances. These results suggest the notion of an inherent stochastic property of gravity represented in the mind.

      (4) The RL model used as a proof of concept for how the brain may build a stochastic prior for the direction of gravity is based on very strong and unverified assumptions. The first assumption is that the brain already knows about the force of gravity, but it lacks knowledge of the direction of this force of gravity. The second assumption is that before learning the brain knows the effect of a gravitational field on a stack of blocks. How can the brain simulate the effect of a non-vertical gravitational field on a structure if it has never observed such an event?

      R4: We agree with the reviewer that the RL framework serves primarily as a theoretic model to explain the stochastic nature of the world model on gravity, rather than as a demonstration of the developmental origins of intuitive physics abilities. The genesis of such abilities is multifaceted and unlikely to be fully replicated through a simple simulation like RL. Therefore, the purpose of incorporating the RL framework in our study is to demonstrate that external perturbances are not necessary for the development of a stochastic representation of gravity.

      In revision, we have clarified the role of the RL framework

      Line 265-277: “While the cognitive impenetrability and the self-consistency observed in this study, without resorting to an external perturbation, favor the stochastic model over the deterministic one, the origin of this stochastic feature of the world model is unclear.

      Here we used a reinforcement learning (RL) framework to unveil this origin, because our intelligence emerges and evolves under the constraints of the physical world. Therefore, the stochastic feature may emerge as a biological agent interacts with the environment, where the mismatches between external feedback from the environment and internal expectations from the world model are in turn used to fine-tune the world model (Friston et al., 2021; MacKay, 1956; Matsuo et al., 2022). Note that a key aspect of the framework is determining whether the stochastic nature of the world model on gravity emerges through this interaction, even in the absence of external noise.”

      (5) The third assumption is that from the visual input, the brain is able to figure out the exact 3D coordinates of the blocks. This has been proven to be untrue in a large number of studies. Given these assumptions and the fact that the only parameters the RL model modifies through learning specify the direction of gravity, I am not surprised that the model produces the desired results.

      Author response image 8.

      Perception Uncertainty in 3D stacks structures. (a) Experimental design. A pair of two stacks with similar placements of blocks were presented sequentially to participants, who were instructed to judge whether the stacks were identical and to rate their confidence in this judgment. Each stack was presented on the screen for 2 seconds. (b) Behavior Performance. Three participants (2 males, age range: 24-30) were recruited to the experiment. The confidence in determining whether a pair of stacks remained unchanged rapidly decreased when each block had a very small displacement, suggesting humans could keenly perceive trivial changes in configurations. The x-axis denotes the difference in block placement between stacks, with the maximum value (0.4) corresponding to the length of a block’s short side. The Y-axis denotes humans’ confidence in reporting no change. The red curve illustrates the average confidence level across 4 runs, while the yellow curve is the confidence level of each run.

      R5: Indeed, uncertainty is inevitable when perceiving the external world, because our perception is not a faithful replica of external reality. A more critical question pertains to the accuracy of our perception in representing the 3D coordinates of a stack’s blocks. To address this question, we designed a straightforward experiment (Author response image 5a), where participants were instructed to determine whether a pair of stacks were identical. The position of each block was randomly changed horizontally. We found that all participants were able to accurately identify even minor positional variations in the 3D structure of the stacks (Author response image 5b). This level of perceptual precision is adequate for locating the difference between predictions from mental simulations and actual observations of the external world.

      (6)Finally, the argument that the MGS is more efficient than the NGS model is based on an incorrect analysis of the results of the simulation. It is true that 80% accuracy is reached faster by the MGS model than the 95% accuracy level is reached by the NGS model. But the question is: how fast does the NGS model reach 80% accuracy (before reaching the plateau)?

      R6: Yes. The NGS model achieved 80% accuracy as rapidly as the MGS model. However, the NGS model required a significantly longer period to reach the plateau crucial for decision-making. In revision, this information is now included.

      Line 348-350: “…, while the initial growth rates of both models were comparable, the MGS reached the plateau crucial for decision-making sooner than the NGS.”

      We greatly appreciate the thorough and insightful review provided by all three reviewers, which has considerably improved our manuscript, especially in terms of clarity in the presentation of the approach and further validation of the robustness implications of our results.

      Reference: Allen KR, Smith KA, Tenenbaum JB. 2020. Rapid trial-and-error learning with simulation supports flexible tool use and physical reasoning. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 117:29302–29310.

      Battaglia PW, Hamrick JB, Tenenbaum JB. 2013. Simulation as an engine of physical scene understanding. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 110:18327–18332.

      Friston K, Moran RJ, Nagai Y, Taniguchi T, Gomi H, Tenenbaum J. 2021. World model learning and inference. Neural Networks 144:573–590.

      Kriegeskorte N, Douglas PK. 2019. Interpreting encoding and decoding models. Current opinion in neurobiology 55:167–179.

      MacKay DM. 1956. The epistemological problem for automataAutomata Studies.(AM-34), Volume 34. Princeton University Press. pp. 235–252.

      Matsuo Y, LeCun Y, Sahani M, Precup D, Silver D, Sugiyama M, Uchibe E, Morimoto J. 2022. Deep learning, reinforcement learning, and world models. Neural Networks.

      Naselaris T, Kay KN, Nishimoto S, Gallant JL. 2011. Encoding and decoding in fMRI. Neuroimage 56:400–410.

      Zhou L, Smith K, Tenenbaum J, Gerstenberg T. 2022. Mental Jenga: A counterfactual simulation model of physical support.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment:

      This study presents an important finding on the implicit and automatic emotion perception from biological motion (BM). The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, although inclusion of a larger number of samples and more evidence for the discrepancy between Intact and local emotional BMs would have strengthened the study. The work will be of broad interest to perceptual and cognitive neuroscience.

      We express our sincere gratitude for the positive and constructive evaluation of our manuscript. We have now included more participants and conducted a replication experiment to strengthen our results.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Tian et al. investigated the effects of emotional signals in biological motion on pupil responses. In this study, subjects were presented with point-light biological motion stimuli with happy, neutral, and sad emotions. Their pupil responses were recorded with an eye tracker. Throughout the study, emotion type (i.e., happy/sad/neutral) and BM stimulus type (intact/inverted/non-BM/local) were systematically manipulated. For intact BM stimuli, happy BM induced a larger pupil diameter than neutral BM, and neutral BM also induced a larger pupil diameter than sad BM. Importantly, the diameter difference between happy and sad BM correlated with the autistic trait of individuals. These effects disappeared for the inverted BM and non-BM stimuli. Interestingly, both happy and sad emotions show superiority in pupil diameter.

      Strengths:

      (1) The experimental conditions and results are very easy to understand.

      (2) The writing and data presentation are clear.

      (3) The methods are sound. I have no problems with the experimental design and results.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) My main concern is the interpretation of the intact and local condition results. The processing advantage of happy emotion is not surprising given a number of existing studies. However, the only difference here seems to be the smaller (or larger) pupil diameter for sad compared to neutral in the intact (or local, respectively) condition. The current form only reports this effect but lacks in-depth discussions and explanations as to why this is the case.

      Thanks for pointing this out, our apology for not making this point clear. It has long been documented that pupil size reflects the degree of cognitive effort and attention input (Joshi & Gold, 2019; van der Wel & van Steenbergen, 2018), and indexes the noradrenalin activity in emotion processing structures like amygdala (Dal Monte et al., 2015; Harrison et al., 2006; Liddell et al., 2005). Accordingly, we proposed that the smaller pupil response observed under the sad condition as compared to the neutral condition is because the sad biological motion (BM) could be less efficient in attracting visual attention and evoking emotional arousal. In line with this, it has been found that infants looked more at the neutral point-light walker when displayed in pair with the sad walker (Ogren et al., 2019), suggesting that the sad BM is less effective in capturing visual attention than the neutral BM. Besides, neural studies have revealed that, compared with other emotions (anger, happiness, disgust, and fear), the processing of sad emotion failed to evoke heightened activities in any emotionally relevant brain regions including the amygdala, the extrastriate body area (EBA) and the fusiform body area (FBA) (Peelen et al., 2007)(Peelen et al., 2007). The current study echoed with these previous findings by demonstrating a disadvantage for intact sad BM in evoking pupil responses. Notably, different from the intact sad BM, the local sad BM would instead induce stronger pupil responses than the neutral local BM. This distinctive pupil modulation effect observed in intact and local sad BM could be explained as a multi-level emotion processing model of BM. Specifically, even though both the intact and local BM conveyed important life information (Chang & Troje, 2008, 2009; Simion et al., 2008), the latter is deprived of the global form feature. Hence, the processing of emotions in local BM may occur at a more basic and preliminary level, responding to the general affective salient emotion information (happy and sad) without detailed analysis. In fact, similar dissociated emotion processing phenomenon has been observed in another important type of emotional signal with analogous function (i.e., facial expression). For example, happy and fearful faces elicited differential amygdala activations when perceived consciously. However, they elicited comparable amygdala activations when suppressed (Williams et al., 2004). Moreover, it has been proposed that there exist two parallel routes for facial expression processing: a quick but coarse subcortical route that detects affective salient information without detailed analysis, and a fine-grained but slow cortical route that discriminates the exact emotion type. Similarly, the dissociated emotion processing in local and intact BM may function in the same manner, with the former serving as a primary emotion detection mechanism and the latter serving as a detailed emotion discrimination mechanism. Still, future studies adopting more diverse experimental paradigms and neuroimaging techniques were needed to further investigate this issue. We have added these points and more thoroughly discussed the potential mechanism in the revised text (see lines 329-339, 405-415, 418-420).

      References:

      Chang, D. H. F., & Troje, N. F. (2008). Perception of animacy and direction from local biological motion signals. Journal of Vision, 8(5), 3. https://doi.org/10.1167/8.5.3

      Chang, D. H. F., & Troje, N. F. (2009). Characterizing global and local mechanisms in biological motion perception. Journal of Vision, 9(5), 8–8. https://doi.org/10.1167/9.5.8

      Dal Monte, O., Costa, V. D., Noble, P. L., Murray, E. A., & Averbeck, B. B. (2015). Amygdala lesions in rhesus macaques decrease attention to threat. Nature Communications, 6(1). https://doi.org/10.1038/ncomms10161

      Harrison, N. A., Singer, T., Rotshtein, P., Dolan, R. J., & Critchley, H. D. (2006). Pupillary contagion: central mechanisms engaged in sadness processing. Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience, 1(1), 5–17. https://doi.org/10.1093/scan/nsl006

      Joshi, S., & Gold, J. I. (2019). Pupil size as a window on neural substrates of cognition. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 24(6), 466–480. https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/dvsme

      Liddell, B. J., Brown, K. J., Kemp, A. H., Barton, M. J., Das, P., Peduto, A., Gordon, E., & Williams, L. M. (2005). A direct brainstem–amygdala–cortical ‘alarm’ system for subliminal signals of fear. NeuroImage, 24(1), 235–243.

      Ogren, M., Kaplan, B., Peng, Y., Johnson, K. L., & Johnson, S. P. (2019). Motion or emotion: infants discriminate emotional biological motion based on low-level visual information. Infant Behavior and Development, 57, 101324. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.infbeh.2019.04.006

      Peelen, M. V., Atkinson, A. P., Andersson, F., & Vuilleumier, P. (2007). Emotional modulation of body-selective visual areas. Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience, 2(4), 274–283. https://doi.org/10.1093/scan/nsm023

      Simion, F., Regolin, L., & Bulf, H. (2008). A predisposition for biological motion in the newborn baby. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 105(2), 809–813. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0707021105

      van der Wel, P., & van Steenbergen, H. (2018). Pupil dilation as an index of effort in cognitive control tasks: a review. Psychonomic Bulletin & Review, 25(6), 2005–2015. https://doi.org/10.3758/s13423-018-1432-y

      Williams, M. A., Morris, A. P., McGlone, F., Abbott, D. F., & Mattingley, J. B. (2004). Amygdala responses to fearful and happy facial expressions under conditions of binocular suppression. Journal of Neuroscience, 24(12), 2898-2904.

      (2) I also found no systematic discussion and theoretical contributions regarding the correlation with the autistic traits. If the main point of this paper is to highlight an implicit and objective behavioral marker of the autistic trait, more interpretation and discussion of the links between the results and existing findings in ASD are needed.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful suggestion. The perception of biological motion (BM) has long been considered an important hallmark of social cognition. Abundant studies reported that individuals with social cognitive deficits (e.g., ASD) were impaired in BM perception (Blake et al., 2003; Freitag et al., 2008; Klin et al., 2009; Nackaerts et al., 2012). More recently, it has been pointed out that the extraction of more complex social information (e.g., emotions, intentions) from BM, as compared to basic BM recognitions, could be more effective in detecting ASDs (Federici et al., 2020; Koldewyn et al., 2009; Parron et al., 2008; Todorova et al., 2019). Specifically, a meta-analysis found that the effect size expanded nearly twice when the task required emotion recognition as compared to simple perception/detection (Todorova et al., 2019). However, for the high-functioning ASD individuals, it has been reported that they showed comparable performance with the control group in explicitly labelling BM emotions, while their responses were rather delayed (Mazzoni et al., 2021). This suggested that ASD individuals could adopt compensatory strategies to complete the explicit BM labelling task, while their automatic behavioural responses remained impaired. This highlights the importance of using more objective measures that do not rely on active reports to investigate the intrinsic perception of emotions from BM and its relationship with ASD-related social deficits. The current study thus introduced the pupil size measurement to this field, and we combined it with the passive viewing task to investigate the more automatic aspect of BM emotion processing. More importantly, in addition to diagnostic ASDs, the non-clinical general population also manifested autistic tendencies that followed normal distribution and demonstrated substantial heritability (Hoekstra et al., 2007). Here, we focused on the autistic tendencies in the general population, and our results showed that pupil modulations by BM emotions were indicative of individual autistic traits. Specifically, passively viewing the happy BMs evoked larger pupil responses than the sad BMs, while such emotional modulation diminished with the increase of autistic tendencies. More detailed test-retest examination further illustrated such a correlation was driven by the general diminishment in pupil modulation effects by emotional BM (happy or sad) for individuals with high autistic tendencies. This finding demonstrated that the automatic emotion processing of BM stimuli was impaired in individuals with high autistic tendencies, lending support to previous studies (Hubert et al., 2006; Nackaerts et al., 2012; Parron et al., 2008). This indicated the utility of emotional BM stimuli and pupil measurement in identifying ASD-related tendencies in both clinical and non-clinical populations. We have added these points to the revised text (see lines 347-375).

      References:

      Blake, R., Turner, L. M., Smoski, M. J., Pozdol, S. L., & Stone, W. L. (2003). Visual recognition of biological motion is impaired in children with autism. Psychological Science, 14(2), 151–157. https://doi.org/10.1111/1467-9280.01434

      Federici, A., Parma, V., Vicovaro, M., Radassao, L., Casartelli, L., & Ronconi, L. (2020). Anomalous perception of biological motion in autism: a conceptual review and meta-analysis. Scientific Reports, 10(1). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-020-61252-3

      Freitag, C. M., Konrad, C., Häberlen, M., Kleser, C., von Gontard, A., Reith, W., Troje, N. F., & Krick, C. (2008). Perception of biological motion in autism spectrum disorders. Neuropsychologia, 46(5), 1480–1494. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuropsychologia.2007.12.025

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      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Through a series of four experiments, Yuan, Wang and Jiang examined pupil size responses to emotion signals in point-light motion stimuli. Experiment 1 examined upright happy, sad and neutral point-light biological motion (BM) walkers. The happy BM induced a significantly larger pupil response than the neutral, whereas the sad BM evoked a significantly smaller pupil size than the neutral BM. Experiment 2 examined inverted BM walkers. Experiment 3 examined BM stimuli with acceleration removed. No significant effects of emotion were found in neither Experiment 2 nor Experiment 3. Experiment 4 examined scrambled BM stimuli, in which local motion features were preserved while the global configuration was disrupted. Interestingly, the scrambled happy and sad BM led to significantly greater pupil size than the scrambled neutral BM at a relatively early time, while no significant difference between the scrambled happy and sad BM was found. Thus, the authors argue that these results suggest multi-level processing of emotions in life motion signals.

      Strengths:

      The experiments were carefully designed and well-executed, with point-light stimuli that eliminate many potential confounding effects of low-level visual features such as luminance, contrast, and spatial frequency.

      Weaknesses:

      Correlation results with limited sample size should be interpreted with extra caution.

      Thanks for pointing this out. To strengthen the correlation results, we have conducted a replication experiment (Exp.1b) and added a test-retest examination to further assess the reliability of our measurements. Specifically, a new group of 24 participants (16 females, 8 males) were recruited to perform the identical experiment procedure as in Experiment 1. Then, after at least seven days, they were asked to return to the lab for a retest. The results successfully replicated the previously reported main effect of emotional condition in both the first test (F(2, 46) = 12.0, p < .001, ηp2 = 0.34, Author response image 1A) and the second test (F(2, 46) = 14.8, p < .001, ηp2 = 0.39, Author response image 1B). The happy BM induced a significantly larger pupil response than the neutral BM (First Test: t(23) = 2.60, p = .022, Cohen’s d = 0.53, 95% CI for the mean difference = [0.02, 0.14], Holm-corrected, p = .048 after Bonferroni correction, Author response image 1A; Second Test: t(23) = 3.36, p = .005, Cohen’s d = 0.68, 95% CI for the mean difference = [0.06, 0.24], Holm-corrected, p = .008 after Bonferroni correction, Author response image 1B). On the contrary, the sad BM induced a significantly smaller pupil response than the neutral BM (First Test: t(23) = -2.77, p = .022, Cohen’s d = 0.57, 95% CI for the mean difference = [-0.19, -0.03], Holm-corrected, p = .033 after Bonferroni correction; Second Test: t(23) = -3.19, p = .005, Cohen’s d = 0.65, 95% CI for the mean difference = [-0.24, -0.05], Holm-corrected, p = .012 after Bonferroni correction, Author response image 1B). Besides, the happy BM induced significantly larger pupil response than the sad BM (first test: t(23) = 4.23, p < .001, Cohen’s d = 0.86, 95% CI for the mean difference = [0.10, 0.28], Holm-corrected, p < .001 after Bonferroni correction, Author response image 1A; second test: t(23) = 4.26, p < .001, Cohen’s d = 0.87, 95% CI for the mean difference = [0.15, 0.44], Holm-corrected, p < .001 after Bonferroni correction, Author response image 1B). The results of the cluster-based permutation analysis were also similar (see Supplementary Material for more details).

      Author response image 1.

      Normalized mean pupil responses in the replication experiment (Experiment 1b) of Experiment 1a and its retest, using the neutral condition as baseline, plotted against happy and sad conditions. (A) In the first test, the group average pupil response to happy intact BM is significantly larger than that to sad and neutral BM, while the pupil response induced by sad BM is significantly smaller than that evoked by neutral BM, replicating the results of Experiment 1a. (B) Moreover, such results were similarly found in the second test.

      Notably, we successfully replicated the negative correlation between the happy over sad dilation effect and individual autistic traits in the first test (r(23) = -0.46, p = .023, 95% CI for the mean difference = [-0.73, -0.07], Author response image 2A). No other significant correlations were found (see Author response image 2B-C). Moreover, in the second test, such a correlation was similarly found and was even stronger (r(23) = -0.61, p = .002, 95% CI for the mean difference = [-0.81, -0.27], Author response image 2D). We‘ve also performed a test-retest reliability analysis on the happy over sad pupil dilation effect and the AQ score. The results showed robust correlations. See Author response table 1 for more details.

      Author response table 1.

      Reliability of pupil size and AQ indices.

      Importantly, in the second test, we’ve also observed a significant negative correlation between AQ and the happy minus neutral pupil dilation effect (r(23) = -0.44, p = .032, 95% CI for the mean difference = [-0.72, -0.04], Author response image 2E), and a significant positive correlation between the sad minus neutral pupil size and AQ (r(23) = 0.50, p = .014, 95% CI for the mean difference = [0.12, 0.75], Author response image 2F). This indicated that the overall correlation between happy over sad dilation effect and AQ was driven both by the diminished happy dilation effect as well as the sad constriction effect. Overall, our replication experiment consistently found a significant negative correlation between AQ and happy over sad dilation effect both in the test and the retest. Moreover, it revealed that such an effect was contributed by both a negative correlation between AQ and happy-neutral pupil response and a positive correlation between AQ and sad-neutral pupil response, demonstrating a general impairment in BM emotion perception (happy or sad) for individuals with high autistic tendencies. This also indicated the utility of adopting a test-retest pupil examination to more precisely detect individual autistic tendencies. We have added these points in the revised text (see lines 135-173, lines 178-180).

      Author response image 2.

      Correlation results for pupil modulation effects and AQ scores in the replication experiment (Experiment 1b) of Experiment 1a and its retest. (A) We replicated the negative correlation between the happy over sad pupil dilation effect and AQ in the first test. (B-C) No other significant correlations were found. (D) In the second test, the negative correlation between the happy over sad pupil dilation effect and AQ was similarly observed and even stronger. (E-F) Moreover, the happy vs. neutral pupil dilation effect and the sad vs. neutral pupil constriction effect respectively correlate with AQ in the second test.

      It would be helpful to add discussions as a context to compare the current results with pupil size reactions to emotion signals in picture stimuli.

      Thanks for this this thoughtful comment. The modulation of emotional information on pupil responses has been mostly investigated using picture stimuli. Bradley et al. (2008) first demonstrated that humans showed larger pupil responses towards emotional images as compared to neutral images, while no difference was observed between the positive and negative images. This was regarded as the result of increased sympathetic activity induced by emotional arousal that is independent of the emotional valence. Similar results have been replicated with different presentation durations, repetition settings, and tasks (Bradley & Lang, 2015; Snowden et al., 2016). However, the emotional stimuli adopted in these studies were mostly complicated scene images that conveyed rather general emotional information. When it comes to the specific emotion cues (e.g., fear, anger, happy, sad) delivered by our conspecifics through biologically salient signals (e.g., faces, gestures, voices), the results became intermixed. Some studies demonstrated that fearful, disgusted, and angry static faces induced larger pupil sizes than the neutral face, while sad and happy faces failed to induce such pupil dilatory effects (Burley et al., 2017). In contrast, other studies observed larger pupil responses for happy faces as compared to sad and fearful faces (Aktar et al., 2018; Burley & Daughters, 2020; Jessen et al., 2016). These conflicting results could be due to the low-level confounds of emotional faces (e.g., eye size) (Carsten et al., 2019; Harrison et al., 2006). Similar to faces, BM also conveyed salient clues concerning the emotional states of our interactive partners. However, they were highly simplified, deprived of various irrelevant visual confounders (e.g., body shape). Here, we reported that the happy BM induced a stronger pupil response than the neutral and sad BM, lending support to the happy dilation effect observed with faces (Burley & Daughters, 2020; Prunty et al., 2021). Moreover, it helps ameliorate the concern regarding the low-level confounding factors by identifying similar pupil modulations in another type of social signal with distinctive perceptual features. We have added these points to the revised text (see lines 301-321).

      References:

      Aktar, E., Mandell, D. J., de Vente, W., Majdandžić, M., Oort, F. J., van Renswoude, D. R., Raijmakers, M. E. J., & Bögels, S. M. (2018). Parental negative emotions are related to behavioral and pupillary correlates of infants’ attention to facial expressions of emotion. Infant Behavior and Development, 53, 101–111. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.infbeh.2018.07.004

      Bradley, M. M., & Lang, P. J. (2015). Memory, emotion, and pupil diameter: repetition of natural scenes. Psychophysiology, 52(9), 1186–1193. https://doi.org/10.1111/psyp.12442

      Bradley, M. M., Miccoli, L., Escrig, M. A., & Lang, P. J. (2008). The pupil as a measure of emotional arousal and autonomic activation. Psychophysiology, 45(4), 602–607. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1469-8986.2008.00654.x

      Burley, D. T., & Daughters, K. (2020). The effect of oxytocin on pupil response to naturalistic dynamic facial expressions. Hormones and Behavior, 125, 104837. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.yhbeh.2020.104837

      Burley, D. T., Gray, N. S., & Snowden, R. J. (2017). As far as the eye can see: relationship between psychopathic traits and pupil response to affective stimuli. PLOS ONE, 12(1), e0167436. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0167436

      Carsten, T., Desmet, C., Krebs, R. M., & Brass, M. (2019). Pupillary contagion is independent of the emotional expression of the face. Emotion, 19(8), 1343–1352. https://doi.org/10.1037/emo0000503

      Harrison, N. A., Singer, T., Rotshtein, P., Dolan, R. J., & Critchley, H. D. (2006). Pupillary contagion: central mechanisms engaged in sadness processing. Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience, 1(1), 5–17. https://doi.org/10.1093/scan/nsl006

      Jessen, S., Altvater-Mackensen, N., & Grossmann, T. (2016). Pupillary responses reveal infants’ discrimination of facial emotions independent of conscious perception. Cognition, 150, 163–169. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cognition.2016.02.010

      Prunty, J. E., Keemink, J. R., & Kelly, D. J. (2021). Infants show pupil dilatory responses to happy and angry facial expressions. Developmental Science, 25(2). https://doi.org/10.11<br /> 11/desc.13182

      Snowden, R. J., O’Farrell, K. R., Burley, D., Erichsen, J. T., Newton, N. V., & Gray, N. S. (2016). The pupil’s response to affective pictures: role of image duration, habituation, and viewing mode. Psychophysiology, 53(8), 1217–1223. https://doi.org/10.1111/psyp.12668

      Overall, I think this is a well-written paper with solid experimental results that support the claim of the authors, i.e., the human visual system may process emotional information in biological motion at multiple levels. Given the key role of emotion processing in normal social cognition, the results will be of interest not only to basic scientists who study visual perception, but also to clinical researchers who work with patients of social cognitive disorders. In addition, this paper suggests that examining pupil size responses could be a very useful methodological tool to study brain mechanisms underlying emotion processing.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The overarching goal of the authors was to understand whether emotional information conveyed through point-light biological motion can trigger automatic physiological responses, as reflected in pupil size.

      Strengths:

      This manuscript has several noticeable strengths: it addresses an intriguing research question that fills that gap in existing literature, presents a clear and accurate presentation of the current literature, and conducts a series of experiments and control experiments with adequate sample size. Yet, it also entails several noticeable limitations - especially in the study design and statistical analyses.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Study design:

      (1.1) Dependent variable:

      Emotional attention is known to modulate both microsaccades and pupil size. Given the existing pupillometry data that the authors have collected, it would be both possible and valuable to determine whether the rate of microsaccades is also influenced by emotional biological motion.

      We thank the reviewer for this advice. Microsaccades functioned as a mechanism to maintain visibility by continuously shifting the retinal image to overcome visual adaptation (Martinez-Conde et al., 2006). Moreover, it was found to be sensitive to attention processes (Baumeler et al., 2020; Engbert & Kliegl, 2003b; Meyberg et al., 2017), and could reflect the activity of superior colliculus (SC) and other related brain areas (Martinez-Conde et al., 2009, 2013). Previous studies have found that, compared with neutral and pleasant images, unpleasant images significantly inhibit early microsaccade rates (Kashihara, 2020; Kashihara et al., 2013). This is regarded as the result of retaining previous crucial information at the sacrifice of updating new visual input. We agree with the reviewer that it would be valuable to investigate whether emotional information conveyed by BM could modulate microsaccades. However, it should be noted that our data collection and experimental design are not optimized for this purpose. This is because we have only recorded the left eye’s data, while abundant methodological studies have doubted the reliability of using only one eye’s data to analyze microsaccades (Fang et al., 2018; Hauperich et al., 2020; Nyström et al., 2017) and suggested that the microsaccades should be defined by spontaneous binocular eye movement (Engbert & Kliegl, 2003a, 2003b). Besides, according to Kashihara et al. (2013), participants showed differential microsaccade rates after the stimuli disappeared so as to maintain the previously observed different emotional information. However, in the current study, we discarded the data after the stimuli disappeared, making it impossible to analyze the microsaccade data after the stimuli disappeared. Despite these disadvantages, we have attempted to analyze the microsaccade rate during the stimuli presentation using only the left eye’s data. Specifically, we applied the algorithm developed by Otero-Millan et al. (2014) (minimum duration =6 ms, maximum amplitude = 1.5 degrees, maximum velocity = 150 degrees/sec) to the left eye’s data from 100 ms before to 4000 ms after stimulus onset. Subsequently, we calculated the microsaccade rates using a moving window of 100 ms (stepped in 1 ms) (Engbert & Kliegl, 2003b; Kashihara et al., 2013). The microsaccade rate displayed a typical curve, with suppression shortly after stimulus appearance (inhibition phase), followed by an increased rate of microsaccade occurrence (rebound phase). The cluster-based permutation analysis was then applied to explore the modulation of BM emotions on microsaccade rates. However, no significant differences among different emotional conditions (happy, sad, neutral) were found for the four experiments.

      Author response image 3.

      Time-series change in the microsaccade rates to happy, sad, and neutral BM in Experiments 1-4. Solid lines represent microsaccade rates under each emotional condition as a function of time (happy: red; sad: blue; neutral: gray); shaded areas represent the SEM between participants. No significant differences were found after cluster-based permutation correction for the four experiments.

      It is important to note that the microsaccade rate analysis was conducted on only the left eye’s data and that the experiment design is not optimized for this analysis, thus, extra caution should be exercised in interpreting the results. Still, we found it very innovative and important to combine the microsaccade index with the pupil size to holistically investigate the processing of emotional information in BM, and future studies are highly needed to adopt more suitable recording techniques and experiment designs to further probe this issue. We have discussed this issue in the revised text (see lines 339-344).

      References:

      Baumeler, D., Schönhammer, J. G., & Born, S. (2020). Microsaccade dynamics in the attentional repulsion effect. Vision Research, 170, 46–52. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.visres.2020.03.009

      Engbert, R., & Kliegl, R. (2003a). Binocular coordination in microsaccades. In The Mind’s Eye (pp. 103–117). Elsevier. https://doi.org/10.1016/b978-044451020-4/50007-4

      Engbert, R., & Kliegl, R. (2003b). Microsaccades uncover the orientation of covert attention. Vision Research, 43(9), 1035–1045. https://doi.org/10.1016/s0042-6989(03)00084-1

      Fang, Y., Gill, C., Poletti, M., & Rucci, M. (2018). Monocular microsaccades: do they really occur? Journal of Vision, 18(3), 18. https://doi.org/10.1167/18.3.18

      Hauperich, A.-K., Young, L. K., & Smithson, H. E. (2020). What makes a microsaccade? a review of 70 years research prompts a new detection method. Journal of Eye Movement Research, 12(6). https://doi.org/10.16910/jemr.12.6.13

      Kashihara, K. (2020). Microsaccadic modulation evoked by emotional events. Journal of Physiological Anthropology, 39(1). https://doi.org/10.1186/s40101-020-00238-6

      Kashihara, K., Okanoya, K., & Kawai, N. (2013). Emotional attention modulates microsaccadic rate and direction. Psychological Research, 78(2), 166–179. https://doi.org/10.1007/s00426-013-0490-z

      Martinez-Conde, S., Macknik, S. L., Troncoso, X. G., & Dyar, T. A. (2006). Microsaccades counteract visual fading during fixation. Neuron, 49(2), 297–305. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2005.11.033

      Martinez-Conde, S., Macknik, S. L., Troncoso, X. G., & Hubel, D. H. (2009). Microsaccades: a neurophysiological analysis. Trends in Neurosciences, 32(9), 463–475. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tins.2009.05.006

      Martinez-Conde, S., Otero-Millan, J., & Macknik, S. L. (2013). The impact of microsaccades on vision: towards a unified theory of saccadic function. Nature Reviews Neuroscience, 14(2), 83–96. https://doi.org/10.1038/nrn3405

      Meyberg, S., Sinn, P., Engbert, R., & Sommer, W. (2017). Revising the link between microsaccades and the spatial cueing of voluntary attention. Vision Research, 133, 47–60. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.visres.2017.01.001

      Nyström, M., Andersson, R., Niehorster, D. C., & Hooge, I. (2017). Searching for monocular microsaccades – a red hering of modern eye trackers? Vision Research, 140, 44–54. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.visres.2017.07.012

      Otero-Millan, J., Castro, J. L. A., Macknik, S. L., & Martinez-Conde, S. (2014). Unsupervised clustering method to detect microsaccades. Journal of Vision, 14(2), 18–18. https://doi.org/10.1167/14.2.18

      (1.2) Stimuli:

      It appears that the speed of the emotional biological motion stimuli mimics the natural pace of the emotional walker. What is the average velocity of the biological motion stimuli for each condition?

      Thanks for pointing out this issue. The neutral and emotional (sad or happy) BM stimuli are equal in walking speed (one step for one second, 1Hz). We have also computed their physical velocity by calculating the Euclidean distance in pixel space of each key point between adjacent frames (Poyo Solanas et al., 2020). The velocity was 5.76 pixels/frame for the happy BM, 4.14 pixels/frame for the neutral BM, and 3.21 pixels/frame for the sad BM. This difference in velocity profile was considered an important signature for conveying emotional information, as the happy walker was characterized by a larger step pace and longer arm swing and the sad walker would instead exhibit a slouching gait with short slow strides and smaller arm movement (Barliya et al., 2012; Chouchourelou et al., 2006; Halovic & Kroos, 2018; Roether et al., 2009). More importantly, our current results could not be explained by the differences in velocities. This is because the inverted emotional BM with identical velocity characteristics failed to induce any modulations on pupil responses. Furthermore, the local sad and happy BM differed the most in velocity feature, while they induced similar modulations on pupil sizes. We have added these points in the revised text (see lines 254-257, 484-491).

      References:

      Barliya, A., Omlor, L., Giese, M. A., Berthoz, A., & Flash, T. (2012). Expression of emotion in the kinematics of locomotion. Experimental Brain Research, 225(2), 159–176. https://doi.org/10.1007/s00221-012-3357-4

      Chouchourelou, A., Matsuka, T., Harber, K., & Shiffrar, M. (2006). The visual analysis of emotional actions. Social Neuroscience, 1(1), 63–74. https://doi.org/10.1080/17470910600630599

      Halovic, S., & Kroos, C. (2018). Not all is noticed: kinematic cues of emotion-specific gait. Human Movement Science, 57, 478–488. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.humov.2017.11.008

      Poyo Solanas, M., Vaessen, M. J., & de Gelder, B. (2020). The role of computational and subjective features in emotional body expressions. Scientific Reports, 10(1). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-020-63125-1

      Roether, C. L., Omlor, L., Christensen, A., & Giese, M. A. (2009). Critical features for the perception of emotion from gait. Journal of Vision, 9(6), 15–15. https://doi.org/10.1167/9.6.15

      When the authors used inverted biological motion stimuli, they didn't observe any modulation in pupil size. Could there be a difference in microsaccades when comparing inverted emotional biological motion stimuli?

      Thanks for this consideration. Both microsaccades and pupil size can provide valuable insights into the underlying neural dynamics of attention and cognitive control (Baumeler et al., 2020; Engbert & Kliegl, 2003; Meyberg et al., 2017). Notably, previous studies have shown that the microsaccades and pupil sizes could be similar and highly correlated in reflecting various cognitive processes, such as multisensory integration, inhibitory control, and cognitive load (Krejtz et al., 2018; Wang et al., 2017; Wang & Munoz, 2021). Moreover, the generation of both microsaccades and pupil responses would involve shared neural circuits, including the midbrain structure superior colliculus (SC) and the noradrenergic system (Hafed et al., 2009; Hafed & Krauzlis, 2012; Wang et al., 2012). However, the pupil size could be more sensitive than microsaccade rates in contexts such as affective priming (Krejtz et al., 2020) and decision formation (Strauch et al., 2018). Moreover, abundant former studies have all shown that inversion would significantly disrupt the perception of emotions from BM (Atkinson et al., 2007; Dittrich et al., 1996; Spencer et al., 2016; Yuan et al., 2022, 2023). Overall, it is unlikely for the microsaccade rates to show significant differences when comparing inverted emotional biological motion stimuli. Besides, we have attempted to analyze the microsaccade rate in the inverted BM situation, while our results showed no significant differences (see also Point 1.1, Author response image 3). Still, it is needed for future studies to combine the microsaccade index and pupil size to provide a thorough understanding of BM emotion processing. We have discussed this issue in the revised text (see lines 339-344).

      References:

      Atkinson, A. P., Tunstall, M. L., & Dittrich, W. H. (2007). Evidence for distinct contributions of form and motion information to the recognition of emotions from body gestures. Cognition, 104(1), 59–72. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cognition.2006.05.005

      Baumeler, D., Schönhammer, J. G., & Born, S. (2020). Microsaccade dynamics in the attentional repulsion effect. Vision Research, 170, 46–52. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.visres.2020.03.009

      Dittrich, W., Troscianko, T., Lea, S., & Morgan, D. (1996). Perception of emotion from dynamic point-light displays represented in dance. Perception, 25(6), 727–738. https://doi.org/10.1068/p250727

      Engbert, R., & Kliegl, R. (2003). Microsaccades uncover the orientation of covert attention. Vision Research, 43(9), 1035–1045. https://doi.org/10.1016/s0042-6989(03)00084-1

      Hafed, Z. M., Goffart, L., & Krauzlis, R. J. (2009). A neural mechanism for microsaccade generation in the primate superior colliculus. Science, 323(5916), 940–943. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1166112

      Hafed, Z. M., & Krauzlis, R. J. (2012). Similarity of superior colliculus involvement in microsaccade and saccade generation. Journal of neurophysiology, 107(7), 1904-1916.

      Krejtz, K., Duchowski, A. T., Niedzielska, A., Biele, C., & Krejtz, I. (2018). Eye tracking cognitive load using pupil diameter and microsaccades with fixed gaze. Plos One, 13(9), e0203629. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0203629

      Krejtz, K., Żurawska, J., Duchowski, A., & Wichary, S. (2020). Pupillary and microsaccadic responses to cognitive effort and emotional arousal during complex decision making. Journal of Eye Movement Research, 13(5). https://doi.org/10.16910/jemr.13.5.2

      Meyberg, S., Sinn, P., Engbert, R., & Sommer, W. (2017). Revising the link between microsaccades and the spatial cueing of voluntary attention. Vision Research, 133, 47–60. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.visres.2017.01.001

      Spencer, J. M. Y., Sekuler, A. B., Bennett, P. J., Giese, M. A., & Pilz, K. S. (2016). Effects of aging on identifying emotions conveyed by point-light walkers. Psychology and Aging, 31(1), 126–138. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0040009

      Strauch, C., Greiter, L., & Huckauf, A. (2018). Pupil dilation but not microsaccade rate robustly reveals decision formation. Scientific Reports, 8(1). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-018-31551-x

      Wang, C.-A., Blohm, G., Huang, J., Boehnke, S. E., & Munoz, D. P. (2017). Multisensory integration in orienting behavior: pupil size, microsaccades, and saccades. Biological Psychology, 129, 36–44. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biopsycho.2017.07.024

      Wang, C.-A., Boehnke, S. E., White, B. J., & Munoz, D. P. (2012). Microstimulation of the monkey superior colliculus induces pupil dilation without evoking saccades. Journal of Neuroscience, 32(11), 3629–3636. https://doi.org/10.1523/jneurosci.5512-11.2012

      Wang, C.-A., & Munoz, D. P. (2021). Differentiating global luminance, arousal and cognitive signals on pupil size and microsaccades. European Journal of Neuroscience, 54(10), 7560–7574. https://doi.org/10.1111/ejn.15508

      Yuan, T., Ji, H., Wang, L., & Jiang, Y. (2022). Happy is stronger than sad: emotional information modulates social attention. Emotion. https://doi.org/10.1037/emo0001145

      Yuan, T., Wang, L., & Jiang, Y. (2023). Cross-channel adaptation reveals shared emotion representation from face and biological motion. In Emotion (p. In Press).

      (2) Statistical analyses

      (2.1) Multiple comparisons:

      There are many posthoc comparisons throughout the manuscript. The authors should consider correction for multiple comparisons. Take Experiment 1 for example, it is important to note that the happy over neutral BM effect and the sad over neutral BM effect are no longer significant after Bonferroni correction, which is worth noting.

      Thanks for this suggestion. In our original analysis, we applied the Holm post-hoc corrections for multiple comparisons. The Holm correction is a step-down correction method and is more powerful but less conservative than the Bonferroni correction. We have now conducted the stricter Bonferroni post-hoc correction. In Experiment 1, the happy over neutral, and happy over sad BM effect is still significant after the Bonferroni post-hoc correction (happy vs. neutral: p = .036; happy vs. sad: p = .009), and the sad over neutral comparison remains marginally significant after the Bonferroni post-hoc correction (p = .071). Importantly, the test-retest replication experiment also yielded significant results for the comparisons between happy and neutral (First Test: p = .022, Holm-corrected, p = .048, Bonferroni-corrected; Second Test: p = .005,  Holm-corrected, p = .008, Bonferroni-corrected), sad and neutral (First Test: p = .022, Holm-corrected, p = .033, Bonferroni-corrected; Second Test: p = .005, Holm-corrected, p = .012, Bonferroni-corrected, Author response image 1B), and happy and sad BM  (First test: p < .001, Holm-corrected, p < .001, Bonferroni-corrected; Second test: p < .001, Holm-corrected, p < .001, Bonferroni-corrected). These results provided support for the replicability and consistency of the reported significant contrasts. See also Point 2.3.

      In Experiment 4, the significance levels of all comparisons remained the same after Bonferroni post-hoc correction (happy vs. neutral: p = .011; sad vs. neutral: p = .007; happy vs. sad: p = 1.000). We have now added these results in the main text (See lines 119, 122, 124, 143, 145, 148, 150, 153, 155, 248, 251, 254).

      (2.2) The authors present the correlation between happy over sad dilation effect and the autistic traits in Experiment 1, but do not report such correlations in Experiments 2-4. Did the authors collect the Autistic Quotient measure in Experiments 2-4? It would be informative if the authors could demonstrate the reproducibility (or lack thereof) of this happy-sad index in Experiments 2-4.

      We apologize for not making it clear. We have collected the AQ scores in Experiments 2-4. However, it should be pointed out that the happy over sad pupil dilation effect was only observed in Experiment 1. Moreover, we’ve again identified such happy over sad pupil dilation effect in the replication experiment (Experiment 1b) as well as its correlation with AQ. Instead, no significant correlations between AQ and the happy-sad pupil index were found in Experiments 2-4, see Author response image 4 for more details. We have reported these correlations in the main text (see lines 157-173, 190-194, 212-216, 257-262).

      Author response image 4.

      Correlations between the happy over sad pupil dilation effect and AQ scores. (A)  The happy over sad pupil dilation effect correlated negatively with individual autistic scores. (B-C) Such correlation was similarly observed in the test and retest of the replication experiment. (D-F) No such correlations were found for the inverted, nonbiological, and local BM stimuli.

      (2.3) The observed correlation between happy over sad dilation effect and the autistic traits in Experiment 1 seems rather weak. It could be attributed to the poor reliability of the Autistic Quotient measure or the author-constructed happy-sad index. Did the authors examine the test-retest reliability of their tasks or the Autistic Quotient measure?

      Thanks for this suggestion. We have now conducted a test-retest replication study to further confirm the observed significant correlations. Specifically, we recruited a new group of 24 participants (16 females, 8 males) to perform the identical procedure as in Experiment 1, and they were asked to return to the lab for a retest after at least seven days. We’ve replicated the significant main effect of emotional conditions in both the first test (F(2, 46) = 12.0, p < .001, ηp2 = 0.34) and the second test (F(2, 46) = 14.8, p < .001, ηp2 = 0.39). Besides, we also replicated the happy minus neutral pupil dilation effect (First Test: t(23) = 2.60, p = .022, Cohen’s d = 0.53, 95% CI for the mean difference = [0.02, 0.14], Holm-corrected, p = .048 after Bonferroni correction; Second Test: t(23) = 3.36, p = .005, Cohen’s d = 0.68, 95% CI for the mean difference = [0.06, 0.24], Holm-corrected, p = .008 after Bonferroni correction), and the sad minus neutral pupil constriction effect (First Test: t(23) = -2.77, p = .022, Cohen’s d = 0.57, 95% CI for the mean difference = [-0.19, -0.03], Holm-corrected, p = .033 after Bonferroni correction; Second Test: t(23) = -3.19, p = .005, Cohen’s d = 0.65, 95% CI for the mean difference = [-0.24, -0.05], Holm-corrected, p = .012 after Bonferroni correction). Additionally, the happy BM still induced a significantly larger pupil response than the sad BM (first test: t(23) = 4.23, p < .001, Cohen’s d = 0.86, 95% CI for the mean difference = [0.10, 0.28], Holm-corrected, p < .001 after Bonferroni correction; second test: t(23) = 4.26, p < .001, Cohen’s d = 0.87, 95% CI for the mean difference = [0.15, 0.44], Holm-corrected, p < .001 after Bonferroni correction).

      Notably, we’ve successfully replicated the negative correlation between the happy over sad dilation effect and individual autistic traits (r(23) = -0.46, p = .023, 95% CI for the mean difference = [-0.73, -0.07]). Such a correlation was similarly found and was even stronger in the retest (r(23) = -0.61, p = .002, 95% CI for the mean difference = [-0.81, -0.27]). A test-retest reliability analysis was conducted on the happy over sad pupil dilation effect and the AQ score. The results showed robust correlations (r(happy-sad pupil size)= 0.56; r(AQ)= 0.90) and strong test-retest reliabilities (α(happy-sad pupil size)= 0.60; α(AQ)= 0.82). We have added these results to the main text (see lines 135-173). See also Response to Reviewer #2 Response 1 for more details.

      (2.4) Relatedly, the happy over sad dilation effect is essentially a subtraction index. Without separately presenting the pipul size correlation with happy and sad BM in supplemental figures, it becomes challenging to understand what's primarily driving the observed correlation.

      Thanks for pointing this out. We have now presented the separate correlations between AQ and the pupil response towards happy and sad BM in Experiment 1 (see Author response image 5A), and the test-retest replication experiment of Experiment 1 (see Author response image 5B-C). No significant correlations were found. This is potentially because the raw pupil response is a mixed result of BM perception and emotion perception, while the variations in pupil sizes across emotional conditions could more faithfully reflect individual sensitivities to emotions in BM (Burley et al., 2017; Pomè et al., 2020; Turi et al., 2018).  

      Author response image 5.

      No significant correlations between AQ and pupil response towards happy and sad intact BM were found in Experiment 1a and the test-retest replication experiment (Experiment 1b).

      To probe what's primarily driving the observed correlation between happy-sad pupil size and AQ, we instead used the neutral as the baseline and separately correlated AQ with the happy-neutral and the sad-neutral pupil modulation effects. No significant correlation was found in Experiment 1a (Author response image 6A-B) and the first test of the replication experiment (Experiment 1b) (Author response image 6C-D). Importantly, in the second test of the replication experiment, we found a significant negative correlation between AQ and the happy-neutral pupil size (r(23) = -0.44, p = .032, 95% CI for the mean difference = [-0.72, -0.04], Author response image 6E), and a significant positive correlation between AQ and the sad-neutral pupil size (r(23) = 0.50, p = .014, 95% CI for the mean difference = [0.12, 0.75], Author response image 6F). This suggested that the overall correlation between AQ and the happy over sad dilation effect was driven by diminished pupil modulations towards both the happy and sad BM for high AQ individuals, demonstrating a general deficiency in BM emotion perception (happy or sad) among individuals with high autistic tendencies. It further revealed the potential of adopting a test-retest pupil examination to more precisely detect individual autistic tendencies. We have reported these results in the main text (see lines 166-173).

      Author response image 6.

      Correlation results for pupil modulations and AQ scores. (A-B) In Experiment 1a, no significant correlation was observed between AQ and the happy pupil modulation effect, as well as between AQ and the sad pupil modulation effect. (C-D) Similarly, no significant correlations were found in the first test of the replication experiment (Experiment 1b). (E-F) Importantly, in the second test of Experiment 1b, the happy vs. neutral pupil dilation effect was positively correlated with AQ, and the sad vs. neutral pupil constriction effect was positively correlated with AQ.

      References:

      Burley, D. T., Gray, N. S., & Snowden, R. J. (2017). As Far as the Eye Can See: Relationship between Psychopathic Traits and Pupil Response to Affective Stimuli. PLOS ONE, 12(1), e0167436. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0167436

      Pomè, A., Binda, P., Cicchini, G. M., & Burr, D. C. (2020). Pupillometry correlates of visual priming, and their dependency on autistic traits. Journal of vision, 20(3), 3-3.

      Turi, M., Burr, D. C., & Binda, P. (2018). Pupillometry reveals perceptual differences that are tightly linked to autistic traits in typical adults. eLife, 7. https://doi.org/10.7554/elife.32399

      (2.5) For the sake of transparency, it is important to report all findings, not just the positive results, throughout the paper.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We have now reported all the correlations results between AQ and pupil modulation effects (happy-sad, happy-neutral, sad-neutral) in the main text (see lines 130-131, 157-162, 166-170, 190-194, 212-216, 257-262). Given that no significant correlations were observed between AQ and the raw pupil responses across four experiments, we reported their correlations with AQ in the supplementary material. We have stated this point in the main text (see lines 132-134).

      (3) Structure

      (3.1) The Results section immediately proceeds to the one-way repeated measures ANOVA. This section could be more reader-friendly by including a brief overview of the task procedures and variables, e.g., shifting Fig. 3 to this section.

      Thanks for this advice. We have now added a brief overview of the task procedures and variables and we have also shifted the figure position (see lines 101-103).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) I suggest that the authors first explain the task (i.e., Fig. 3) at the beginning of the results. And it seems more appropriate to show the time course figures (Fig. 2) and before the bar plots (Fig. 1). If I understand correctly, the bar plots reflect the averaged data from the time course plots. Also, please clearly state the time window used to average the data. The results of the correlation analysis can be displayed in the last step.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We have now added a concise explanation of the task at the beginning of the results (see lines 101-103). We have also adjusted the figure positions and adjusted the order of our results according to the reviewer’s suggestion. The time window we used to average the data was from the onset of the stimuli until the end of the stimuli presentation. We have now clearly stated these issues in the revised text (see lines 111-112).

      (2) According to the above, I think a more reasonable arrangement should be Fig. 3, 2, and 1.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We have adjusted the figure positions accordingly.

      (3) Please include each subject's data points in the bar plots in Fig. 1.

      We have now presented each subject’s individual data point in the bar plot.

      (4) Lines 158-160 and 199-202 report interaction effects of the two-way ANOVA. This is good, but the direction of interaction effect should also be reported.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now reported the direction of the interaction effect. The significant interaction observed across Experiment 1 and Experiment 2 was mainly due to the diminishment of emotional modulation in inverted BM. The significant interaction crossing Experiment 1 and Experiment 3 was similarly caused by the lack of emotional modulation in nonbiological stimuli. With regard to the significant interaction across Experiment 1 and Experiment 4, it could be primarily attributed to the vanishment of pupil modulation effect between happy and sad local BM. We have specified these points in the revised text, see lines 198-199, 219-220, 267-269.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Number of experiments:

      As stated in the Methods section, this study seems to consist of five experiments (120/24=5) according to the description below. However, the current manuscript only reports findings from four of these experiments. Can the authors clarify on this matter?

      "A total of 120 participants (44 males, 76 females) ranging from 18 to 29 years old (M ± SD = 23.1 ± 2.5) were recruited, with 24 in each experiment."

      We apologize for not making it clear. This referred to a pure behavior explicit emotion classification experiment (N=24) that served as a prior test to confirm that the local BM stimuli conveyed recognizable emotional information. We have now more carefully stated this issue in the revised text, see lines 456-458.

      (2) Emotion processing mechanism of BM

      "Mechanism" is a very strong word, suggesting a causal relationship. In the setting of a passive viewing task that lacks any behavioral report, it is possible that the observed changes in pupil size could be epiphenomenal, rather than serving as the underlying mechanism.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We have now either changed “mechanism” into “phenomenon” or deleted it. We have also carefully discussed the potential implications for future studies to incorporate variant behavioral, physiological and neural indexes to yield more robust causal evidence to unveil the potential mechanism serving the observed multi-level BM emotion processing phenomenon.

      (3) Data sharing

      The authors could improve their efforts in promoting data transparency to ensure a comprehensive view of the results. This implies sharing deidentified raw data instead of summary data in an Excel spreadsheet.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We have now uploaded the deidentified raw data. (https://doi.org/10.57760/sciencedb.psych.00125).

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This valuable work provides new insights into history-dependent biases in human perceptual decisionmaking. It provides compelling behavioral and MEG evidence that humans adapt their historydependent to the correlation structure of uncertain sensory environments. Further neural data analyses would strengthen some of the findings, and the studied bias would be more accurately framed as a stimulus- or outcome-history bias than a choice-history bias because tested subjects are biased not by their previous choice, but by the previous feedback (indicating the category of the previous stimulus).

      Thank you for your constructive evaluation of our manuscript. We have followed your suggestion to frame the studied bias as ‘stimulus history bias’. We now use this term whenever referring to our current results. Please note that we instead use the generic term ‘history bias’ when referring to the history biases studied in the previous literature on this topic in general. This is because these biases were dependent on previous choice(s), previous stimuli, or previous outcomes, or combinations of some (or all) of these factors. We have also added several of your suggested neural data analyses so as to strengthen the support for our conclusions, and we have elaborated on the Introduction so as to clarify the gaps in the literature that our study aims to fill. Our revisions are detailed in our replies below. We also took the liberty to reply to some points in the Public Review, which we felt called for clarification of the main aims (and main contribution) of our study.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This paper aims to study the effects of choice history on action-selective beta band signals in human MEG data during a sensory evidence accumulation task. It does so by placing participants in three different stochastic environments, where the outcome of each trial is either random, likely to repeat, or likely to alternate across trials. The authors provide good behavioural evidence that subjects have learnt these statistics (even though they are not explicitly told about them) and that they influence their decision-making, especially on the most difficult trials (low motion coherence). They then show that the primary effect of choice history on lateralised beta-band activity, which is well-established to be linked to evidence accumulation processes in decision-making, is on the slope of evidence accumulation rather than on the baseline level of lateralised beta.

      The strengths of the paper are that it is: (i) very well analysed, with compelling evidence in support of its primary conclusions; (ii) a well-designed study, allowing the authors to investigate the effects of choice history in different stochastic environments.

      Thank you for pointing out these strengths of our study.

      There are no major weaknesses to the study. On the other hand, investigating the effects of choice/outcome history on evidence integration is a fairly well-established problem in the field. As such, I think that this provides a valuable contribution to the field, rather than being a landmark study that will transform our understanding of the problem.

      Your evaluation of the significance of our work made us realize that we may have failed to bring across the main gaps in the literature that our current study aimed to fill. We have now unpacked this in our revised Introduction.

      Indeed, many previous studies have quantified history-dependent biases in perceptual choice. However, the vast majority of those studies used tasks without any correlation structure; only a handful of studies have quantified history biases in tasks entailing structured environments, as we have done here (Abrahamyan et al., 2016; Kim et al., 2017; Braun et al., 2018; Hermoso-Mendizabal et al., 2020). The focus on correlated environments matters from an ecological perspective, because (i) natural environments are commonly structured rather than random (a likely reason for history biases being so prevalent in the first place), and (ii) history biases that change flexibly with the environmental structure are a hallmark of adaptive behavior. Critically, the few previous studies that have used correlated environments and revealed flexible/adaptive history biases were purely behavioral. Ours is the first to characterize the neural correlates of adaptive history biases.

      Furthermore, although several previous studies have identified neural correlates of history biases in standard perceptual choice tasks in unstructured environments (see (Talluri et al., 2021) for a brief overview), most have focused on static representations of the bias in ongoing activity preceding the new decision; only a single monkey physiology study has tested for both a static bias in the pre-stimulus activity and a dynamic bias building up during evidence accumulation (Mochol et al., 2021). Ours is the first demonstration of a dynamic bias during evidence accumulation in the human brain.

      The authors have achieved their primary aims and I think that the results support their main conclusions. One outstanding question in the analysis is the extent to which the source-reconstructed patches in Figure 2 are truly independent of one another (as often there is 'leakage' from one source location into another, and many of the different ROIs have quite similar overall patterns of synchronisation/desynchronisation.).

      We do not assume (and nowhere state) that the different ROIs are “truly independent” of one another. In fact, patterns of task-related power modulations of neural activity would be expected to be correlated between many visual and action-related cortical areas even without leakage (due to neural signal correlations). So, one should not assume independence even for intracortically recorded local field potential data, fMRI data, or other data with minimal spatial leakage effects. That said, we agree that filter leakage will add a (trivial) component to the similarity of power modulations across ROIs, which can and should be quantified with the analysis you propose.

      A possible way to investigate this further would be to explore the correlation structure of the LCMV beamformer weights for these different patches, to ask how similar/dissimilar the spatial filters are for the different reconstructed patches.

      Thank you for suggesting this analysis, which provides a very useful context for interpreting the pattern of results shown in our Figure 2. We have now computed (Pearson) correlation coefficients of the LCMV beamformer weights across the regions of interest. The results are shown in the new Figure 2 – figure supplement 1. This analysis provided evidence for minor leakage between the source estimates for neighboring cortical regions (filter correlations <= than 0.22 on average across subjects) and negligible leakage for more distant regions. We now clearly state this when referring to Figure 2.

      That said, we would also like to clarify our reasoning behind Figure 2. Our common approach to these source-reconstructed MEG data is to focus on the differences, rather than the similarities between ROIs, because the differences cannot be accounted for by leakage. Our analyses show clearly distinct, and physiologically plausible functional profiles across ROIs (motion coherence encoding in visual regions, action choice coding in motor regions), in line with other work using our general approach (Wilming et al., 2020; Murphy et al., 2021; Urai and Donner, 2022).

      Most importantly, our current analyses focus on the impact of history bias on the build-up of actionselective activity in downstream, action-related areas; and we chose to focus on M1 only in order to avoid hard-to-interpret comparisons between neighboring action-related regions. Figure 2 is intended as a demonstration of the data quality (showing sensible signatures for all ROIs) and as a context for the interpretation of our main neural results from M1 shown in the subsequent figures. So, all our main conclusions are unaffected by leakage between ROIs.

      We have now clarified these points in the paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this work, the authors use computational modeling and human neurophysiology (MEG) to uncover behavioral and neural signatures of choice history biases during sequential perceptual decision-making. In line with previous work, they see neural signatures reflecting choice planning during perceptual evidence accumulation in motor-related regions, and further show that the rate of accumulation responds to structured, predictable environments suggesting that statistical learning of environment structure in decision-making can adaptively bias the rate of perceptual evidence accumulation via neural signatures of action planning. The data and evidence show subtle but clear effects, and are consistent with a large body of work on decision-making and action planning.

      Overall, the authors achieved what they set out to do in this nice study, and the results, while somewhat subtle in places, support the main conclusions. This work will have impact within the fields of decisionmaking and motor planning, linking statistical learning of structured sequential effects in sense data to evidence accumulation and action planning.

      Strengths:

      • The study is elegantly designed, and the methods are clear and generally state-of-the-art

      • The background leading up to the study is well described, and the study itself conjoins two bodies of work - the dynamics of action-planning processes during perceptual evidence accumulation, and the statistical learning of sequential structure in incoming sense data

      • Careful analyses effectively deal with potential confounds (e.g., baseline beta biases)

      Thank you for pointing out these strengths of our study.

      Weaknesses:

      • Much of the study is primarily a verification of what was expected based on previous behavioral work, with the main difference (if I'm not mistaken) being that subjects learn actual latent structure rather than expressing sequential biases in uniform random environments.

      As we have stated in our reply to the overall assessment above, we realize that we may have failed to clearly communicate the novelty of our current results, and we have revised our Introduction accordingly. It is true that most previous studies of history biases in perceptual choice have used standard tasks without across-trial correlation structure. Only a handful of studies have quantified history biases in tasks entailing structured environments that varied from one condition to the next (Abrahamyan et al., 2016; Kim et al., 2017; Braun et al., 2018; Hermoso-Mendizabal et al., 2020), and showed that history biases change flexibly with the environmental structure. Our current work adds to this emerging picture, using a specific task setting analogous to one of these previous studies done in rats (Hermoso-Mendizabal et al., 2020).

      Critically, all the previous studies that have revealed flexible/adaptive history biases in correlated environments were purely behavioral. Ours is the first to characterize the neural correlates of adaptive history biases. And it is also the very first demonstration of a dynamic history-dependent bias (i.e., one that gradually builds up during evidence accumulation) in the human brain.

      Whether this difference - between learning true structure or superstitiously applying it when it's not there - is significant at the behavioral or neural level is unclear. Did the authors have a hypothesis about this distinction? If the distinction is not relevant, is the main contribution here the neural effect?

      We are not quite sure what exactly you mean with “is significant”, so we will reply to two possible interpretations of this statement.

      The first is that you may be asking for evidence for any difference between the estimated history biases in the structured (i.e., Repetitive, Alternating) vs. the unstructured (i.e., Neutral) environments used in our experiment. We do, in fact, provide quantitative comparisons between the history biases in the structured and Neutral environments at the behavioral level. Figure 1D and Figure 1 – figure supplement 2A and accompanying text show a robust and statistically significant difference in history biases. Specifically, the previous stimulus weights differ between each of the biased environments and the Neutral environment and the weights shifted in expected and opposite directions for both structured environments, indicating a tendency to repeat the previous stimulus category in Repetitive and vice versa in Alternating (Figure1D). Going further, we also demonstrate that the adjustment of the history is behaviorally relevant in that it improves performance in the two structured environments, but not in the unstructured environment (Figure 1F and Figure 1 – figure supplement 2A and figure supplement 3).

      The second is that you refer to the question of whether the history biases are generated via different computations in structured vs. random environments. Indeed, this is a very interesting and important question. We cannot answer this question based on the available results, because we here used a statistical (i.e., descriptive) model. Addressing this question would require developing and fitting a generative model of the history bias and comparing the inferred latent learning processes between environments. This is something we are doing in ongoing work.

      • The key effects (Figure 4) are among the more statistically on-the-cusp effects in the paper, and the Alternating group in 4C did not reliably go in the expected direction. This is not a huge problem per se, but does make the key result seem less reliable given the clear reliability of the behavioral results

      The model-free analyses in Figure 3C and 4B, C from the original version of our manuscript were never intended to demonstrate the “key effects”, but only as supplementary to the results from the modelbased analyses in Figures 3C and 4D, E in our current version of the manuscript. The latter show the “key effects” because they are a direct demonstration of the shaping of build-up of action-selective activity by history bias.

      To clarify this, we now decided to focus Figures 3 and 4 on the model-based analyses only. This decision was further supported by noticing a confound in our model-independent analyses in new control analyses prompted by Reviewer #3.

      Please note that the alternating bias in the Alternating environment is also less strong at the behavioral level compared to the bias in the Repetitive condition (see Figure 1D). A possible explanation is that a sequence of repetitive stimuli produces stronger prior expectations (for repetition) than an equally long sequence of alternating stimuli (Meyniel et al., 2016). This might also induce the bias to repeat the previous stimulus category in the Neutral condition (Figure 1D). Moreover, this intrinsic repetition bias might counteract the bias to alternate the previous stimulus category in Alternating.

      • The treatment of "awareness" of task structure in the study (via informal interviews in only a subsample of subjects) is wanting

      Agreed. We have now removed this statement from Discussion.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This study examines how the correlation structure of a perceptual decision making task influences history biases in responding. By manipulating whether stimuli were more likely to be repetitive or alternating, they found evidence from both behavior and a neural signal of decision formation that history biases are flexibly adapted to the environment. On the whole, these findings are supported across an impressive range of detailed behavioral and neural analyses. The methods and data from this study will likely be of interest to cognitive neuroscience and psychology researchers. The results provide new insights into the mechanisms of perceptual decision making.

      The behavioral analyses are thorough and convincing, supported by a large number of experimental trials (~600 in each of 3 environmental contexts) in 38 participants. The psychometric curves provide clear evidence of adaptive history biases. The paper then goes on to model the effect of history biases at the single trial level, using an elegant cross-validation approach to perform model selection and fitting. The results support the idea that, with trial-by-trial accuracy feedback, the participants adjusted their history biases due to the previous stimulus category, depending on the task structure in a way that contributed to performance.

      Thank you for these nice words on our work.

      The paper then examines MEG signatures of decision formation, to try to identify neural signatures of these adaptive biases. Looking specifically at motor beta lateralization, they found no evidence that starting-level bias due to the previous trial differed depending on the task context. This suggests that the adaptive bias unfolds in the dynamic part of the decision process, rather than reflecting a starting level bias. The paper goes on to look at lateralization relative to the chosen hand as a proxy for a decision variable (DV), whose slope is shown to be influenced by these adaptive biases.

      This analysis of the buildup of action-selective motor cortical activity would be easier to interpret if its connection with the DV was more explicitly stated. The motor beta is lateralized relative to the chosen hand, as opposed to the correct response which might often be the case. It is therefore not obvious how the DV behaves in correct and error trials, which are combined together here for many of the analyses.

      We have now unpacked the connection of the action-selective motor cortical activity and decision variable in the manuscript, as follows:

      “This signal, referred to as ‘motor beta lateralization’ in the following, has been shown to exhibit hallmark signatures of the DV, specifically: (i) selectivity for choice and (ii) ramping slope that depends on evidence strength (Siegel et al., 2011; Murphy et al., 2021; O’Connell and Kelly, 2021).”

      Furthermore, we have added a figure of the time course of the motor beta lateralization separately for correct and error trials, locked to both stimulus onset and to motor response (Figure 2 – figure supplement 2). This signal reached statistical significance earlier for correct than error trials, and during the stimulus interval it ramped to a larger (i.e., more negative) amplitude for correct trials (Figure 2 – figure supplement 2, left). But the signal was indistinguishable in amplitude between correct and error trials around the time of the motor response (Figure 2 – figure supplement 2, right). This pattern matches what would be expected for a neural signature of the DV, because errors are more frequently made on weak-evidence trials than correct choices and because even for matched evidence strength, the DV builds up more slowly before error trials in accumulator models (Ratcliff and McKoon, 2008).

      --

      As you will see, all three reviewers found your work to provide valuable insights into history-dependent biases during perceptual decision-making. During consultation between reviewers, there was agreement that what is referred as a choice-history bias in the current version of the manuscript should rather be framed as a stimulus- or outcome-history bias (despite the dominant use of the term 'choicehistory' bias in the existing literature), and the reviewers pointed toward further analyses of the neural data which they thought would strengthen some of the claims made in the preprint. We hope that these comments will be useful if you wish to revise your preprint.

      We are pleased to hear that the reviewers think our work provides valuable insights into historydependent biases in perceptual decision-making. We thank you for your thoughtful and constructive evaluation of our manuscript.

      We have followed your suggestion to frame the studied bias as ‘stimulus history bias’. We now use this term whenever referring to our current results. Please note that we instead use the generic term ‘history bias’ when referring to the history biases studied in the previous literature on this topic in general. This is because these biases were dependent on previous choice(s), previous stimuli, or previous outcomes, or combinations of some (or all) of these factors.

      We have also performed several of your suggested neural data analyses so as to strengthen the support for our conclusions.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      One suggestion is to explore the correlation structure of the LCMV beam former weights for the regions of interest in the study, for the reasons outlined in my public review.

      Again, thank you for suggesting this analysis, which provides a very useful context for interpreting the pattern of results shown in our Figure 2. We have now computed (Pearson) correlation coefficients of the LCMV beamformer weights across the regions of interest. The results are shown in the new Figure 2 – figure supplement 1. This analysis provided evidence for minor leakage between the source estimates for neighboring cortical regions (filter correlations <= than 0.22 on average across subjects) and negligible leakage for more distant regions. We now clearly state this when referring to Figure 2.

      That said, we would also like to clarify our reasoning behind Figure 2. Our common approach to these source-reconstructed MEG data is to focus on the differences, rather than the similarities between ROIs, because the differences cannot be accounted for by leakage. Our analyses show clearly distinct, and physiologically plausible functional profiles across ROIs (motion coherence encoding in visual regions, action choice coding in motor regions), in line with other work using our general approach (Wilming et al., 2020; Murphy et al., 2021; Urai and Donner, 2022).

      Most importantly, our current analyses focus on the impact of history bias on the build-up of actionselective activity in downstream, action-related areas; and we chose to focus on M1 only in order to avoid hard-to-interpret comparisons between neighboring action-related regions. Figure 2 is intended as a demonstration of the data quality (showing sensible signatures for all ROIs) and as a context for the interpretation of our main neural results from M1 shown in the subsequent figures. So, all our main conclusions are unaffected by leakage between ROIs.

      We have now clarified also these points in the paper.

      I also wondered if the authors had considered:

      (i) the extent to which the bias changes across time, as the transition probabilities are being learnt across the experiment? given that these are not being explicitly instructed to participants, is any modelling possible of how the transition structure is itself being learnt over time, and whether this makes predictions of either behaviour or neural signals?

      We refer to this point in the discussion. The learning of the transition probabilities which can and should be addressed. This requires generative models that capture the learning of the transition structure over time (Yu and Cohen, 2009; Meyniel et al., 2016; Glaze et al., 2018; Hermoso-Mendizabal et al., 2020).

      The fact that our current statistical modeling approach successfully captures the bias adjustment between environments implies that the learning must be sufficiently fast. Tracking this process explicitly would be an exciting and important endeavor for the future. We think it is beyond the scope of the present study focusing on the trial-by-trial effect of history bias (however generated) on the build-up of action-selective activity.

      (ii) neural responses at the time of choice outcome - given that so much of the paper is about the update of information in different statistical environments, it seems a shame that no analyses are included of feedback processing, how this differs across the different environments, and how might be linked to behavioural changes at the next trial.

      We agree that the neural responses to feedback are a very interesting topic. We currently analyze these in another ongoing project on (outcome) history bias in a foraging task. We will consider re-analyzing the feedback component in the current data set, in this new study as well.

      However, this is distinct from the main question that is in the focus of our current paper – which, as elaborated above, is important to answer: whether and how adaptive history biases shape the dynamics of action-selective cortical activity in the human brain. While interesting and important, neural responses to feedback were not part of this question. So, we prefer to keep the focus of our paper on our original question.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor:

      -pg. 7: "inconstant"

      -some citations (e.g., Barbosa 2020) are missing from the bibliography

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have fixed these.

      -figure S2 is very useful! could probably go in main text.

      We agree that this figure is important. But we decided to show it in the Supplement (now Figure 1 – figure supplement 2) after careful consideration for two reasons. First, we wanted to put the reader’s focus on the stimulus weights, because it is those weights, which are flexibly adjusted to the statistics of the environment rather than the choice weights, which seem less adaptive (i.e., stereotypical across environments) and idiosyncratic. Second, plotting the previous stimulus weights only enabled to add the individual weights in the Neutral condition, which would have been to cluttered to add to figure S2.

      For these reasons, we feel that this Figure is more suitable for expert readers with a special interest in the details of the behavioral analyses and would be better placed in the Supplement. These readers will certainly be able to find and interpret that information in the Supplement.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I would suggest that a more in depth description of the previous literature that explains exactly how the features of the lateralized beta--as it is formulated here-- reflect the decision variable would assist with the readers' understanding. A demonstration of how the lateralized beta behaves under different coherence conditions, or for corrects vs errors, for example, might be helpful for readers.

      We now provide a more detailed description of how/why the motor beta lateralization is a valid proxy of DV in the revised paper.

      We have demonstrated the dependence of the ramping of the motor beta lateralization on the motion coherence using a regression model with current signed motion coherence as well as single trial bias as regressors. The beta weights describing the impact of the signed motion coherence on the amplitude as well as on the slope of the motor beta lateralization are shown in Figure 4G (now 4E). As expected, stronger motion coherence induces a steeper downward slope of the motor beta lateralization.

      Furthermore, we have added a figure of the time course of the motor beta lateralization separately for correct and error trials, locked to both stimulus onset and to motor response (Figure 2 – figure supplement 2). This signal reached statistical significance earlier for correct than error trials, and during the stimulus interval it ramped to a larger (i.e., more negative) amplitude for correct trials (Figure 2 – figure supplement 2, left). But the signal was indistinguishable in amplitude between correct and error trials around the time of the motor response (Figure 2 – figure supplement 2, right).This pattern matches what would be expected for a neural signature DV, because errors are more frequently made on weakevidence trials than correct choices and because even for matched evidence strength, the DV builds up more slowly before error trials in accumulator models (Ratcliff and McKoon, 2008).

      Finally, please note that our previous studies have demonstrated that the time course of the beta lateralization during the trial closely tracks the time course of a normative model-derived DV (Murphy et al., 2021) and that the motor beta ramping slope is parametrically modulated by motion coherence (de Lange et al., 2013), which is perfectly in line with the current results.

      Along similar lines, around figures 3c and 4B, some control analyses may be helpful to clarify whether there are differences between the groups of responses consistent and inconsistent with the previous trial (e.g. correctness, coherence) that differ between environments, and also could influence the lateralized beta.

      Thank you for pointing us to this important control analysis. We have done this, and indeed, it identified accuracy and motion strength as possible confounds (Author response image 1). Specifically, proportion correct as well as motion coherence were larger for consistent vs. inconsistent conditions in Repetitive and vice versa in Alternating. Those differences in accuracy and coherence might indeed influence the slope of the motor beta lateralization that our model-free analysis had identified, rendering the resulting difference between consistent and inconsistent difficult to interpret unambiguously in terms of bias. Thus, we have decided to drop the consistency (i.e., model-independent) analysis and focus completely on the modelbased analyses.

      Author response image 1.

      Proportion correct and motion coherence split by environment and consistency of current choice and previous stimulus. In the Repetitive environment (Rep.), accuracy and motion coherence are larger for current choice consistent vs. inconsistent with previous stimulus category and vice versa in the Alternating environment (Alt.).

      Importantly, this decision has no implications for the conclusions of our paper: The model-independent analyses in the original versions of Figure 3 and 4 were only intended as a supplement to the most conclusive and readily interpretable results from the model-based analyses (now in Figs. 3C and 4D, E. The latter are the most direct demonstration of a shaping of build-up of action-selective activity by history bias, and they are unaffected by these confounds.

      In addition, I wondered whether the bin subsampling procedure to match trial numbers for choice might result in unbalanced coherences between the up and down choices.

      The subsampling itself did not cause any unbalanced coherences between the up and down choices, which we now show in Figure 4 – figure supplement 1. There was only a slight imbalance in coherences between up and down choices before the subsampling which then translated into the subsampled trials but the coherences were equally distributed before as compared to after the subsampling.

      Also, please note that the purpose of this analysis was to make the neural bias directly “visible” in the beta lateralization data, rather than just regression weights. The issue does not pertain to the critical single-trial regression analysis, which yielded consistent results.

      References

      Abrahamyan A, Silva LL, Dakin SC, Carandini M, Gardner JL (2016) Adaptable history biases in human perceptual decisions. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 113:E3548–E3557.

      Braun A, Urai AE, Donner TH (2018) Adaptive History Biases Result from Confidence-weighted Accumulation of Past Choices. The Journal of Neuroscience:2189–17. de Lange FP, Rahnev DA, Donner TH, Lau H (2013) Prestimulus Oscillatory Activity over Motor Cortex Reflects Perceptual Expectations. Journal of Neuroscience 33:1400–1410.

      Glaze CM, Filipowicz ALS, Kable JW, Balasubramanian V, Gold JI (2018) A bias–variance trade-off governs individual differences in on-line learning in an unpredictable environment. Nat Hum Behav 2:213–224.

      Hermoso-Mendizabal A, Hyafil A, Rueda-Orozco PE, Jaramillo S, Robbe D, de la Rocha J (2020) Response outcomes gate the impact of expectations on perceptual decisions. Nat Commun 11:1057.

      Kim TD, Kabir M, Gold JI (2017) Coupled Decision Processes Update and Maintain Saccadic Priors in a Dynamic Environment. The Journal of Neuroscience 37:3632–3645.

      Meyniel F, Maheu M, Dehaene S (2016) Human Inferences about Sequences: A Minimal Transition Probability Model Gershman SJ, ed. PLOS Computational Biology 12:e1005260.

      Mochol G, Kiani R, Moreno-Bote R (2021) Prefrontal cortex represents heuristics that shape choice bias and its integration into future behavior. Current Biology 31:1234-1244.e6.

      Murphy PR, Wilming N, Hernandez-Bocanegra DC, Prat-Ortega G, Donner TH (2021) Adaptive circuit dynamics across human cortex during evidence accumulation in changing environments. Nat Neurosci 24:987–997.

      O’Connell RG, Kelly SP (2021) Neurophysiology of Human Perceptual Decision-Making. Annu Rev Neurosci 44:495–516.

      Ratcliff R, McKoon G (2008) The Diffusion Decision Model: Theory and Data for Two-Choice Decision Tasks. Neural Computation 20:873–922.

      Siegel M, Engel AK, Donner TH (2011) Cortical Network Dynamics of Perceptual Decision-Making in the Human Brain. Frontiers in Human Neuroscience 5 Available at: http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2011.00021/abstract [Accessed April 8, 2017].

      Talluri BC, Braun A, Donner TH (2021) Decision making: How the past guides the future in frontal cortex. Current Biology 31:R303–R306.

      Urai AE, Donner TH (2022) Persistent activity in human parietal cortex mediates perceptual choice repetition bias. Nat Commun 13:6015.

      Wilming N, Murphy PR, Meyniel F, Donner TH (2020) Large-scale dynamics of perceptual decision information across human cortex. Nat Commun 11:5109.

      Yu A, Cohen JD (2009) Sequential effects: Superstition or rational behavior. Advances in neural information processing systems 21:1873–1880.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This valuable study by Wu and Zhou combined neurophysiological recordings and computational modelling to investigate the neural mechanisms that underpin the interaction between sensory evaluation and action selection. The neurophysiological results suggest non-linear modulation of decision-related LIP activity by action selection, but some further analysis would be helpful in order to understand whether these results can be generalised to LIP circuitry or might be dependent on specific spatial task configurations. The authors present solid computational evidence that this might be due to projections from choice target representations. These results are of interest for neuroscientists investigating decision-making.

      Strengths:

      Wu and Zhou combine awake behaving neurophysiology for a sophisticated, flexible visual-motion discrimination task and a recurrent network model to disentangle the contribution of sensory evaluation and action selection to LIP firing patterns. The correct saccade response direction for preferred motion direction choices is randomly interleaved between contralateral and ipsilateral response targets, which allows the dissociation of perceptual choice from saccade direction.

      The neurophysiological recordings from area LIP indicate non-linear interaction between motion categorisation decisions and saccade choice direction.

      The careful investigation of a recurrent network model suggests that feedback from choice target representations to an earlier sensory evaluation stage might be the source for this non-linear modulation and that it is an important circuit component for behavioural performance.

      The paper presents a possible solution to a central controversy about the role of LIP in perceptual decision-making, but see below.

      Weaknesses:

      The paper presents a possible solution to a central controversy about the role of LIP in perceptual decision-making. However, the authors could be more clear and upfront about their interpretational framework and potential alternative interpretations.

      Centrally, the authors' model and experimental data appears to test only that LIP carries out sensory evaluation in its RFs. The model explicitly parks the representation of choice targets outside the "LIP" module receiving sensory input. The feedback from this separate target representation provides then the non-linear modulation that matches the neurophysiology. However, they ignore the neurophysiological results that LIP neurons can also represent motor planning to a saccade target.

      The neurophysiological results with a modulation of the direction tuning by choice direction (contralateral vs ipsilateral) are intriguing. However, the evaluation of the neurophysiological results are difficult, because some of the necessary information is missing to exclude alternative explanations. It would be good to see the actual distributions and sizes of the RF, which were determined based on visual responses not with a delayed saccade task. There might be for example a simple spatial configuration, for example, RF and preferred choice target in the same (contralateral) hemifield, for which there is an increase in firing. It is a shame that we do not see what these neurons would do if only a choice target would be put in the RF, as has been done in so many previous LIP experiments. The authors exclude also some spatial task configurations (vertical direction decisions), which makes it difficult to judge whether these data and models can be generalised. The whole section is difficult to follow, partly also because it appears to mix reporting results with interpretation (e.g. "feedback").

      The model and its investigation is very interesting and thorough, but given the neurophysiological literature on LIP, it is not clear that the target module would need to be in a separate brain area, but could be local circuitry within LIP between different neuron types.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors recorded activity in the posterior parietal cortex (PPC) of monkeys performing a perceptual decision-making task. The monkeys were first shown two choice dots of two different colors. Then, they saw a random dot motion stimulus. They had to learn to categorize the direction of motion as referring to either the right or left dot. However, the rule was based on the color of the dot and not its location. So, the red dot could either be to the right or left, but the rule itself remained the same. It is known from past work that PPC neurons would code the learned categorization. Here, the authors showed that the categorization signal depended on whether the executed saccade was in the same hemifield as the recorded PPC neuron or in the opposite one. That is, if a neuron categorized the two motion directions such that it responded stronger for one than the other, then this differential motion direction coding effect was amplified if the subsequent choice saccade was in the same hemifield. The authors then built a computational RNN to replicate the results and make further tests by simulated "lesions".

      Strengths:

      Linking the results to RNN simulations and simulated lesions.

      Weaknesses:

      Potential interpretational issues due to a lack of evidence on what happens at the time of the saccades.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The neurophysiological results with a modulation of the direction tuning by choice direction are intriguing. However, the evaluation of the neurophysiological results are difficult because some of the necessary information is missing to exclude alternative explanations.

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful comments. We have addressed this point in detail in the following response.

      (a) Clearly state in the results how the response field "RF", where the stimulus was placed, was mapped. The methods give as "MGS"" (i.e., spatial selectivity during stimulus presentation and delay)" task rather than the standard delayed saccade. And also "while for those neurons which did not show a clear RF during the MGS task, we presented motion stimuli in the positions (always in the visual field contralateral to the recorded hemisphere) in which neurons exhibited the strongest response to the motion stimuli." All this sounds more like a sensory receptive field not an eye movement response filed". What was the exact task and criterion?

      We agree with the reviewer that the original description of how we mapped the response fields (RFs) of LIP neurons lacked sufficient detail. In this study, we used the memory-guided saccade (MGS) task to map the RFs of all isolated LIP neurons. Both MGS and delayed saccade tasks are commonly used to map a neuron's response field in previous decision-making studies.

      In the MGS task, monkeys initially fixate on the center of the screen. Subsequently, a dot randomly flashes at one of the eight possible locations surrounding the fixation dot with an eccentricity of 8 degree, requiring the monkeys to memorize the location of the flashed dot. After a delay of 1000 ms, the monkeys are instructed to saccade to the remembered location once the fixation dot disappears. The MGS task is a standard behavior task for mapping visual, memory, and motor RFs, particularly in brain regions involved in eye movement planning and control, such as LIP, FEF, and the superior colliculus.

      We believe the reviewer's confusion may stem from whether we mapped the visual, memory, or motor RFs of LIP neurons in the current study, as these "RFs" are not always consistent across individual neurons. In our study, we primarily mapped the visual and memory RFs of each LIP neuron by analyzing their activity during both the target presentation and delay periods. To focus on sensory evaluation-related activity, we presented the visual motion stimulus within the visual-memory RF of each neuron. For neurons that did not show a significant visual-memory RF, we used a different approach: we tested the neurons with the main task by altering the spatial configuration of the task stimuli to identify the visual field that elicited the strongest response when the motion stimulus was presented within it. This approach was used to guide the placement of the stimulus during the recording sessions.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have added the following clarification to the results section to better describe how we mapped the RF of LIP neurons:

      ‘We used the memory-guided saccade (MGS) task, which is commonly employed in LIP studies, to map the receptive fields (RFs) of all isolated LIP neurons. Specifically, we mapped both the visual and memory RFs of each neuron by analyzing their activity during the target presentation and delay periods of the MGS task (see Methods).’.

      (b) l.85 / l126: What do you mean by "orthogonal to the axis of the neural RF" - was the RF shape asymmetric, if so how did you determine this? OR do you mean the motion direction axis? Please explain.

      We realized that the original description of this point may have been unclear and could lead to confusion. The axis of the neural RF refers to the line connecting the center of the RF (which coincides with the center of the motion stimulus) to the fixation dot. We have revised this sentence in the revised manuscript as follows:

      ‘To examine the neural activity related to the evaluation of stimulus motion, we presented the motion stimuli within the RF of each neuron, while positioning the saccade targets at locations orthogonal to the line connecting the center of the RF (which also marks the center of the motion stimulus) and the fixation dot.’

      (c) Behavioural task. Figure 1 - are these example session? Please state this clearly. Can you show the examples (psychometric function and reaction times) separated for trials where correct choice direction aligning with the motion preference (within 90 degrees) and those that did not?

      Figure 1 shows the averaged behavioral results from all recording sessions. We have added this detail in the revised legend of Figure 1.

      We are uncertain about the reviewer’s reference to the “correct choice direction aligning with the motion preference,” as the term “motion preference” is specific to the neuron response, which are different for different neurons recorded simultaneously using multichannel recording probe.

      Nonetheless, following the reviewer’s suggestion, we grouped the trials in each recording session into two groups based on the relationship between the saccade direction and the preferred motion direction of the identified LIP neuron during one example single-channel recording. Both the RT and the performance accuracy during one example session were shown in the following figure.

      Author response image 1.

      Give also the performance averaged across all sites included in this study and range.<br /> If performance does differ for different configuration, please, show that the main modulatory effect does not align with this distinction.

      To clarify this point, we have plotted performance accuracy and RTs for horizontal, oblique, and vertical target position configurations separately, which are shown for both monkeys in the following figures. We did not observe any systematic influences of task configurations on the monkeys' performance accuracy. While the RTs did differ across different configurations, we believe these differences are likely attributable to several factors, such as varying levels of familiarity introduced by our training process and the intrinsic RT difference between different saccade directions.

      Author response image 2.

      (d) Show the distribution of RF positions and the direction preferences for the recording sites included in the quantitative analysis of this study. (And if available, separately those excluded).

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have plotted the centers of the RFs for all neurons with identifiable RFs, categorizing them by their preferred motion directions. To determine each neuron’s RF, we analyzed the average firing rates from both the target presentation and delay periods during each trial of the memory-guided saccade (MGS) task. The RF centers of neurons with significant RFs were determined through a two-step process. First, we selected neurons that exhibited significant RFs in the MGS based on the following criteria: 1) there must be a significant activity difference between the eight target locations, and 2) the mean activity during the selected periods should be significantly greater than the baseline activity during the fixation period. Second, we fitted the activity data from the eight conditions to a Gaussian distribution, using the center of the fitted distribution as the RF center. A significant proportion of neurons from both monkeys that exhibited significant response to motion stimuli did not exhibited notable RFs based our current method. The following figures show the distributions of RFs and motion direction preference for all LIP neurons with identifiable RFs separately for each monkey. Since this is not the focus of the current study, we are not planning to include this result in the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 3.

      (e) Following on from d), was there a systematic relationship between RF position or direction preference and modulation by choice direction? For instance could the responses be simply explained by an increase in modulation for choices into the same (contralateral) hemifield as where the stimulus was placed?

      The reviewer raised a good point. To address whether there was a systematic relationship between RF position or direction preference and modulation by choice direction, we calculated a modulation index for each neuron to quantify the influence of saccade direction on neuronal responses to motion stimuli. We then plotted the modulation index against the RF position for each LIP neuron, shown as following:

      Author response image 4.

      As shown in the figures above, neurons with RFs farther from the horizontal meridian were more likely to exhibit stronger modulation by the saccade direction, while neurons with RFs closer to the horizontal meridian showed inconsistent and weaker modulation. This is because when the RFs was on the horizontal meridian, saccade directions were aligned with the vertical axis (with no contralateral or ipsilateral directions). This is consistent with the finding in Figure S3—no significant differences in direction selectivity between the CT and IT conditions in the data sessions where the saccade targets were aligned close to the vertical direction. Since fewer than half of the identified neurons showed clear receptive fields using our method, the figure above did not include all the neurons used in the analysis in the manuscript. Therefore, we chose not to include this figure in the revised manuscript.

      Additionally, we quantified the relationship between the modulation index and direction preference for neurons in sessions where the monkeys’ saccades were aligned to either horizontal or oblique directions. As shown in the following figure, no systematic relationship was found between direction preference and modulation by the choice direction for LIP neurons at the population level.

      Author response image 5.

      We have added this result as Figure S 2 in the revised manuscript.

      Notably, the observed modulation of saccade direction on LIP neurons’ response to motion stimuli cannot be simply explained by saccade direction selectivity. We presented two more evidence to rule out such possibility in the original manuscript. First, the modulation effect we observed was nonlinear; specifically, the firing rate of neurons increased for the preferred motion direction but decreased for the non-preferred motion direction (Figure 2i and Figure S1A-D). This phenomenon is unlikely to be attributed to a linear gain modulation driven by saccade directions. Second, we plotted the averaged neural activity for contralateral and ipsilateral saccade directions separately, and found that LIP neurons showed similar levels of activity between two saccade directions (revised Figure 2L).

      Additionally, we added a paragraph in the Methods section to describe the way we calculated modulation index as follows:

      “We have calculated a modulation index for each neuron to reflect the influence of saccade direction on neuron’s response to visual stimuli. The modulation index is calculated as:

      where represents the average firing rate from 50ms to 250ms after sample onset for all contralateral saccade trails with a neuron’s preferred moving direction of visual stimuli. The naming conventions are the same for , , and . An MI value between 0 and 1 indicate higher modulation in contralateral saccade trials, and an MI value between -1 and 0 indicates higher modulation in ipsilateral saccade trials.”

      Please split Figures 2G,H,I J,K, by whether the RF was located contralaterally or ipsilaterally. If there are only a small number of ipsilateral RFs, please show these examples, perhaps in an appendix.

      This is a reasonable suggestion; however, it is not applicable to our study. Among all the neurons included in our analysis, only one neuron from each monkey exhibited ipsilateral receptive fields (RFs). Therefore, we believe it may not be necessary to plot the result for this outlier.

      (f) Were the choice targets always equi-distant from the stimulus and at what distance was this? Please give quantitative details in methods.

      The review was correct that the choice targets were always equidistant form the stimulus. The distance between the motion stimulus and the target was typically 12-15 degree. We have added the details in the revised Methods section as follows:

      ‘Therefore, the two saccade targets were equidistant from the stimulus, with the distance typically ranging from 12 to 15 degrees.

      (2) For Figure 3E, how do you explain that there is an up regulation of for contralateral choices before the stimulus onset, i.e. before the animal can make a decision? Is this difference larger for error trials?

      This is a good question, which we have attempted to clarify in the revised manuscript. We believe that the observed upregulation in neural activity for contralateral choices may reflect the monkeys’ internal choice bias or expectation (choice between two motion directions) prior to stimulus presentation, which could influence their subsequent decisions. In Figure 3E, we calculated the r-choice to assess the correlation between the neuron’s direction selectivity and the monkeys’ decisions on motion stimuli, separately for contralateral and ipsilateral choice conditions. The increased r-decision during the pre-stimulus period indicates stronger neural activity for trials in which the monkeys later reported that the upcoming stimulus was in the preferred direction, and weaker activity for trials where the stimulus was judged to be in the non-preferred direction. This correlation was more pronounced for contralateral choices than for ipsilateral ones. It is important to note that while the monkeys cannot predict the upcoming stimulus direction with greater-than-chance accuracy, these results suggest that pre-stimulus neural activity in LIP is correlated with the monkeys’ eventual decision for that trial. Furthermore, LIP neural activity was more strongly correlated with the monkeys’ decisions in the contralateral choice condition compared to the ipsilateral one.

      Additionally, we clarify that the r-decision was calculated using both correct and error trials. When comparing Figure 2J with Figure 2K, the correlation between neural activity and the monkeys’ upcoming decision during the pre-stimulus period was most prominent in low- and zero-coherence trials, where the monkeys either made more errors or based decisions on guesswork. We infer that the monkeys' confidence in these decisions was likely lower compared to high-coherence trials. Thus, the decision process appears to be influenced by pre-stimulus neural activity, particularly in low-coherence and zero-coherence trials.

      Although it is unclear precisely what covert process this pre-stimulus activity reflects, similar patterns of choice-predictive pre-stimulus activity have been observed in LIP and other brain areas (Shadlen, M.N. and Newsome,T.W., 2001; Coe, B., at al. 2002; Baso, M.A. and Wurtz, R.H., 1998; Z. M. Williams at al. 2003). We have clarified this point in the revised manuscript, including a revision of the relevant sentence in the Results section for clarity, shown as follows:

      “Furthermore, we used partial correlation analysis to examine decision- and stimulus-related components of DS (i.e., r-decision and r-stimulus, Figure 3E and 3F) using all four coherence levels. The decision-related component of LIP DS was significantly greater in the CT condition than in the IT condition (Figure 3E; nested ANOVA: P = 1.07e-6, F= 25.72), and this difference emerged even before motion stimulus onset. This suggests that the LIP DS was more closely correlated with monkeys’ decisions in the CT condition than in the IT condition. The upregulation in r-decision for contralateral choices may reflect the monkeys’ internal choice bias or expectation (choice between two motion directions) prior to stimulus presentation, which could influence their subsequent decisions more in the CT condition”

      (3) Figure 2K: what is the very large condition-independent contribution? It almost seems as most of what these neurons code for is neither saccade or motion related.

      The condition-independent contribution is the time-dependent component that is unrelated to saccade, motion, or their interaction. Our findings are consistent with previous methodological studies, where this time-dependent component was shown to account for a significant portion of the variance in population activity (Kobak, D. et al., 2016)

      (4) Abstract:

      a) "We found that the PPC activity related to monkeys' abstract decisions about visual stimuli was nonlinearly modulated by monkeys' following saccade choices directing outside each neuron's response field."

      This sentence is not clear/precise in two regards:

      Should "directing" be "directed"?

      Also, it is not just saccades directed outside the RF, but towards the contralateral hemifield.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We agree that ‘directing’ should be ‘directed’ and revised it accordingly. However, we do not believe that ‘directed outside each neuron's response field’ should be replaced with “towards the contralateral hemifield”. There are two major reasons. First, the modulation effect was identified as the difference between contralateral and ipsilateral saccade directions. We cannot conclude that the modulation mainly happened in the contralateral saccade direction. Second, we used ‘directed outside each neuron's response field’ to emphasize that this modulation cannot be simply explained by saccade direction selectivity, whereas ‘towards the contralateral hemifield’ cannot fulfill this purpose.

      (b) " Recurrent neural network modeling indicated that the feedback connections, matching the learned stimuli-response associations during the task, mediated such feedback modulation."

      - should be "that feedback connection .... might mediate". A model can only ever give a possible explanation.

      Thanks for the help on the writing again! We have revised this sentence as following: “Recurrent neural network modeling indicated that the feedback connections, matching the learned stimuli-response associations during the task, might mediate such feedback modulation.”

      (c) "thereby increasing the consistency of flexible decisions." I am not sure what is really meant by increasing the consistency of flexible decisions? More correct or more the same?

      We apologize for the confusion. In the manuscript, "decision consistency" refers to the degree of agreement in the model's decisions under specific conditions. A higher decision consistency indicates that the model is more likely to produce the same choice when encountering encounters a stimulus in that condition. We have incorporated your suggestion and revise this sentence as “thereby increasing the reliability of flexible decisions”. We also clarified the definition of consistency in the main text as follows:

      “These disrupted patterns of saccade DS observed in the target module following projection-specific inactivation aligned with the decreased decision consistency of RNNs, where decision consistency reflects the degree of agreement in the model's choices under specific task conditions. This suggests a diminished reliance on sensory input and an increased dependence on internal noise in the decision-making process.”.

      (5) Results: headers should be changed to reflect the actual results, not the interpretation:

      "Nonlinear feedback modulation of saccade choice on visual motion selectivity in LIP"

      "Feedback modulation specifically impacted the decision-correlated activity in LIP"

      These first parts of the results describe neurophysiological modulations of LIP activity, the source cannot be known from the presented data alone. I thought that this feedback is suggested by the modelling results in the last part of the results. It is confusing to the reader that the titles already refer to the source of the modulation as "feedback". The titles should more accurelty describe what is found, not pre-judge the interpretation.

      We thank the reviewer for those valuable suggestions. We have updated the subtitles to: “Nonlinear modulation of saccade choice on visual motion selectivity in LIP” and “Decision-correlated but not stimulus-correlated activity was modulated in LIP.”

      (6) page 8, l366-380. Can you link the statements more directly to panels in Figure 6. For Figure 6H-K, it needs to be clarified that the headers for 6D-G also apply to H-K.

      ­We have added headers for Figure 6H-K in the revised version, and revised the corresponding results section as follows.

      ‘We further examined how the energy landscape in the 1-D subspace changed in relation to task difficulty (motion coherence). Consistent with prior findings, trials with lower decision consistency (trials using lower motion coherence) exhibited shallower attractor basins at the time of decision for all types of RNNs (Fig. 6H-K). However, both the depth and the positional separation of attractor basins in the network dynamics significantly decreased for all non-zero motion coherence levels after the ablation of all feedback connections (comparing Figure 6I with Figure 6H; P(depth) = 5.20e-25, F = 122.80; P(position) = 1.82e-27, F = 137.75; two-way ANOVA). Notably, this reduction in basin depth and separation was more pronounced in the specific group compared to the nonspecific groups after ablating the feedback connections (comparing Figure 6J with Figure 6K; P(depth) = 2.65e-13, F =57.35; P(position) = 3.73e-14, F = 61.79; two-way ANOVA). These results might underlie the computational mechanisms that explain the observed reduction in the decision consistency of RNNs following projection-specific inactivation: the shallower and closer attractor basins after ablating feedback connections resulted in less consistent decisions. This happened because the variability in neural activity made it more likely for population activity to stochastically shift out of the shallower basins and into nearby alternative ones.’

      (7) line 556-557: Please provide a reference or data for the assertion that nearby recording sites in LIP (100 microns apart) have similar RFs.

      The reviewer raised an interesting question that we are unable to address in depth with the current data, as we lack information on the specific cortical location for each recording session. In the original manuscript, we suggested that nearby recording sites in LIP have similar receptive fields (RFs), based on both our own experience with LIP recordings and previous studies. Specifically, we observed that neurons recorded within a single penetration using a single-channel electrode typically exhibited similar RFs. Similarly, the majority of neurons recorded from the same multichannel linear probe within a single session also showed comparable RFs. Additionally, several studies (both electrophysiological and fMRI) have reported topographic organization of RFs in LIP (Gaurav H. Patel et al., 2010; S. Ben Hamed et al., 2001; Gene J. Blatt et al., 1990).

      (8) Line 568, Methods: a response criterion of a maximum firing rate of 2 spikes/s seems very low, especially for LIP. How do the results change if this lifted to something more realistic like 5 spikes/s or 10 spikes/s?

      We chose this criterion to ensure we included as many neurons as possible in our analysis. To further clarify, we have plotted the distribution of maximum firing rates across all neurons. Based on our findings, relaxing this criterion is unlikely to affect the results, as the majority of neurons exhibit maximum firing rates well above 5 spikes/s, and many exceed 10 spikes/s. We hope this explanation addresses the concern.

      Author response image 6.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In this manuscript, the authors recorded activity in the posterior parietal cortex (PPC) of monkeys performing a perceptual decision-making task. The monkeys were first shown two choice dots of two different colors. Then, they saw a random dot motion stimulus. They had to learn to categorize the direction of motion as referring to either the right or left dot. However, the rule was based on the color of the dot and not its location. So, the red dot could either be to the right or left, but the rule itself remained the same. It is known from past work that PPC neurons would code the learned categorization. Here, the authors showed that the categorization signal depended on whether the executed saccade was in the same hemifield as the recorded PPC neuron or in the opposite one. That is, if a neuron categorized the two motion directions such that it responded stronger for one than the other, then this differential motion direction coding effect was amplified if the subsequent choice saccade was in the same hemifield. The authors then built a computational RNN to replicate the results and make further tests by simulated "lesions".

      The data are generally interesting, and the manuscript is generally well written (but see some specific comments below on where I was confused). However, I'm still not sure about the conclusions. The way the experiment is setup, the "contra" saccade target is essentially in the same hemifield as the motion patch stimulus. Given that the RF's can be quite large, isn't it important to try to check whether the saccade itself contributed to the effects? i.e. if the RF is on the left side, and the "contra" saccade is to the left, then even if it is orthogonal to the location of the stimulus motion patch itself, couldn't the saccade still be part of a residual edge of the RF? This could potentially contribute to elevating the firing rate on the preferred motion direction trials. I think it would help to align the data on saccade onset to see what happens. It would also help to have fully mapped the neurons' movement fields by asking the monkeys to generate saccades to all screen locations in the monitor. The authors mention briefly that they used a memory-guided saccade task to map RF's, but it is also important to map with a visual target. And, in any case, it would be important to show the mapping results aligned on saccade onset.

      Another comment is that the authors might want to mention this other recent related paper by the Pack group: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.08.03.551852v2.full.pdf

      We thank the reviewer for the comments and realized that we did not explain our results clearly in the original manuscript. We agree with the reviewer that saccade direction selectivity might be a confounding factor for the modulation of the saccade choice direction onto LIP neurons’ activity responded to visual motion stimuli. Because the RFs of LIP neurons might be large and the saccade target might be presented within the edge of the RFs. However, we believe that the observed modulation of saccade direction on LIP neurons’ response to motion stimuli cannot be simply explained by saccade direction selectivity. We presented several pieces of evidence to rule out such possibility. First, the modulation effect we observed was not linear; specifically, the firing rate of neurons increased for the preferred motion direction but decreased for the non-preferred motion direction (Figure 2i and Figure S1A-D). This phenomenon is unlikely to be attributed to a linear gain modulation driven by saccade directions. Second, we plotted the averaged neural activity for contralateral and ipsilateral saccade directions separately, aligned the activity to either motion stimulus onset or saccade onset, and found that LIP neurons showed similar levels of activity between the contralateral and ipsilateral directions (revised Figure 2L), which is not consistent with obvious saccade direction selectivity.

      To better control for this confound, we have added figures plotting the mean neural activity aligned to saccade onset for both contralateral and ipsilateral saccades, which are now included in the revised main Figure 2. These figures are presented in the detailed response below. Additionally, we have revised the corresponding results section to clarify our points, as outlined below:

      “Figure 2A-2F shows three example LIP neurons that exhibited significant motion coherence correlated DS. Surprisingly, LIP neurons showed greater DS in the CT condition than in the IT condition, even though the same motion stimuli were used in the same spatial location for both conditions. The averaged population activity showed this DS difference between CT and IT conditions for all four coherence levels (Figure 2G, 2H). During presentation of their preferred motion direction, LIP neurons showed significantly elevated activity in the CT relative to the IT at all coherence levels (Figure S1A, S1B, nested ANOVA: P(high) = 0.0326, F = 4.65; P(medium) = 0.0088, 142 F = 7.03; P(low) = 0.0076, F = 7.32; P(zero) = 0.0124, F = 6.4), and a trend toward lower activity to the nonpreferred direction for CT vs. IT (Figure S1C, S1D, nested ANOVA: P(high) = 0.0994, F = 2.75; P(medium) = 0.0649, F = 3.12; P(low) = 0.0311, F = 4.73; P(zero) = 0.0273, F = 4.96). Most of the LIP neurons (48 of 83) showed such opposing trends in activity modulation between the preferred and nonpreferred directions (Figure 2I). These results indicated a nonlinear modulation of saccade choice on motion DS in LIP, aligned precisely with the response property of each neuron. This is unlikely to be driven by a linear gain modulation of saccade direction selectivity. Receiver operating characteristic (ROC) analysis further confirmed significantly greater motion DS in the CT condition than in the IT condition (Figure 2J 148 and 2K; nested ANOVA: P(high) = 5.0e-4, F= 12.44; P(medium) = 9.53e-6, F = 20.91; P(low) = 9.33e-7, F 149 = 26.03; P(zero) = 2.56e-8, F= 34.3). Such DS differences were observed even before stimulus onset. Moreover, LIP neurons exhibited similar levels of mean activity between different saccade directions (CT vs. IT) before monkeys’ saccade choice (Figure 2L), further supporting that saccade direction selectivity did not significantly contribute to the observed modulation of LIP neurons’ responses to motion stimuli.

      We also thank the reviewer for pointing out the missing of this relevant study, we have added the suggested refence in the revised discussion section as follows:

      ‘A recent study demonstrated that neurons in the middle temporal area responded more strongly to motion stimuli when monkeys saccaded toward their RFs in a standard decision task with a fixed mapping between motion stimuli and saccade directions. This modulation emerged through the training process and contributed causally to the monkeys' following saccade choices. Consistently, we found that the response of LIP neurons to motion stimuli was more strongly correlated with the monkeys' decisions in the CT condition (saccades toward RFs) than in the IT condition, in a more flexible decision task. Together, these results suggest that the modulation of action selection on sensory processing may be a general process in perceptual decision-making. However, the observed modulation of saccade direction on LIP neurons' responses to motion stimuli cannot be simply explained by saccade direction selectivity. Several lines of evidence argue against this possibility. First, the modulation effect was nonlinear; specifically, neuronal firing rates increased for preferred motion directions but decreased for non-preferred directions (Figure 2I and Figure S1). This pattern is unlikely to be driven by a linear gain modulation based on saccade directions. Second, we found that LIP neurons exhibited similar levels of activity in both the CT and IT conditions (Figure 2L), which is inconsistent with the presence of clear saccade direction selectivity.

      Some more specific comments are below:

      - I had a bit of a hard time with the abstract. It does not appear to be crystal clear to me, and it is the first thing that I am reading after the title. For example, if there is a claim about both perceptual decision-making and later target selection, then I feel that the task should be explained a bit more clearly than saying "flexible decision" task. Also, "..modulated by monkeys' following saccade choices directing outside each neuron's response field" was hard to read. It needs to be rewritten. Maybe just say "...modulated by the subsequent eye movement choices, even when these eye movement choices always directed the eyes away from the recorded neuron's response field". Also, I don't fully understand what "selectivity-specific feedback" means. Then, the concept of "consistency" in flexible decisions is brought up, again without much context. The above are examples of why I had a hard time with the abstract.

      We realize that our original statement may have been unclear and potentially caused confusion for the readers. Following the reviewer’s suggestions, we have revised the abstract as follows:

      ‘Neural activity in the primate brain correlates with both sensory evaluation and action selection aspects of decision-making. However, the intricate interaction between these distinct neural processes and their impact on decision behaviors remains unexplored. Here, we examined the interplay of these decision processes in posterior parietal cortex (PPC) when monkeys performed a flexible decision task, in which they chose between two color targets based on a visual motion stimulus. We found that the PPC activity related to monkeys’ abstract decisions about visual stimuli was nonlinearly modulated by their subsequent saccade choices, which were directed outside each neuron’s response field. Recurrent neural network modeling indicated that the feedback connections, matching the learned stimuli-response associations during the task, might mediate such feedback modulation. Further analysis on network dynamics revealed that selectivity-specific feedback connectivity intensified the attractor basins of population activity underlying saccade choices, thereby increasing the reliability of flexible decisions. These results highlight an iterative computation between different decision processes, mediated primarily by precise feedback connectivity, contributing to the optimization of flexible decision-making.’

      Specifically, selectivity-specific feedback refers to the feedback connections with positive or negative weights between selectivity-matched and selectivity-nonmatched unit pairs, respectively.

      Regarding "decision consistency," we define it as the degree to which the model’s decisions remain congruent under specific conditions. A higher level of decision consistency indicates that the model is more likely to produce the same choice each time it is presented with a stimulus under those conditions, in another words, decision reliability. We have revised the corresponding results section to make these concepts clearer.

      - Line 69: I'm not fully sure, but I think that some people might suggest that superior colliculus is also involved in the sensory aspect of the evaluation. But, I guess the sentence itself is correct as you write it. So, I don't think anyone should argue with it. However, if someone does argue with it, then they would flag the next sentence, since if the colliculus does both, then do the sensory and motor parts really employ distinct neural processes? Anyway, I think this is very minor.

      This is an interesting point. We have also noticed a recent study that demonstrates that the superior colliculus is causally involved in the sensory aspect of decision-making, specifically in visual categorization. However, the study also distinguishes between neural activity related to categorical decisions and that related to saccade planning. This suggests that the sensory and motor aspects of decision-making likely involve distinct neural processing, even within the same brain region—potentially reflecting separate populations of neurons. Therefore, we stand by our statement in the ‘next sentence’.

      - Line 79-80: you might want to look at this work because I feel that it is relevant to cite here: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.08.03.551852v2

      We have discussed this reference in the revised discussion section of the manuscript, please refer to the above response.

      - For a result like that shown in Fig. 2, I feel that it is important to show RF mapping with a saccade task alone. i.e. for the same neurons, have a monkey make a delayed visually guided saccade task to all possible locations on the display, and demonstrate that there is no modulation by saccades to the targets. Otherwise, the result in Fig. 2 could reflect first an onset response by a motion, and then the saccade-related response that would happen anyway, even without the decision task. So, I feel that now, it is not entirely clear whether the result reflects this so-called feedback modulation, or whether simply planning the saccade to the target itself activates the neurons. With large RF's, this is a distinct possibility in my opinion.

      - Line 174: this would also be predicted if the neuron's were responding based on the saccade target plan independent of the motion stimulus

      - On a related note, I would recommend plotting all data also aligned on saccade onset. This can help establish what the cause of the effects described is

      We understand the reviewer’s concern that the modulation might be related to saccade planning, and we acknowledge that the original manuscript might not adequately address this potential confound. Unfortunately, we did not map the LIP neurons' receptive fields (RFs) using a saccade-only task. However, as mentioned earlier, we believe that the modulation of LIP neurons' responses to motion stimuli based on saccade choice direction cannot be simply attributed to saccade direction selectivity. Several lines of evidence support this conclusion. First, the modulation we observed was nonlinear: the firing rate of neurons increased for the preferred motion direction but decreased for the non-preferred motion direction (Figure 2i and Figure S1A-D). This pattern is inconsistent with a simple linear gain modulation driven by saccade direction selectivity. Second, we directly compared LIP neuronal activity for contralateral and ipsilateral target conditions, and found no significant differences between the two. This suggests that saccade direction selectivity is unlikely to be the primary contributor to the observed modulation. In the revised figure, we added a plot (Figure 2L) that aligns neural activity to saccade onset, in addition to the original alignment to motion stimulus onset (Figure S1E). This new analysis further supports our interpretation.

      Author response image 7.

      - Even when reading the simulation results, I'm still not 100% sure I understand what is meant by this idea of "consistency" of flexible decision-making

      We have addressed this issue in a previous comment and please refer to the response above.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the reviewers for their time and thoughtful comments. We believe that the further analyses suggested have made the results clearer and more robust. Below, we briefly highlight the key points addressed in the revision and the new evidence supporting them. Then, we address each reviewer’s critiques point-by-point.

      - Changes in variability with respect to time/experience

      Both reviewers #1 and #3 asked whether the variability in grid properties observed was dependent on time or experience. This is an important point, given that such a dependence on time could lead to interesting hypotheses about the underlying dynamics of the grid code. However, in the new analyses we performed, we do not observe changes in grid variability within a session (Fig S5 of the revised manuscript), suggesting that the grid variability seen is constant within the timescale of the data set.

      - The assumption of constant grid parameters in the literature

      Reviewer #2 pointed out that it had been appreciated by experimentalists that grid properties are variable within a module. We agree that we may have overstated the universality of this assumption in the original manuscript, and we have toned down the language in the revision. However, we note that many previous theoretical studies assumed these properties to be constant, within a given module. We provide some examples below, and have added evidence of this assertion, with citations to the theoretical literature, to the revised manuscript .

      - Additional sources of variability

      Reviewer #3 pointed out additional sources that might explain the variability observed in the paper (beyond time and experience). These sources include: field width, border location, and the impact of conjunctive cells. We have run additional analyses and have found no significant impact on the observed variability from any of these factors. We believe that these are important controls, and have added them to the manuscript (Fig S4-S7 of the revised manuscript)

      - Analysis of computational models

      Reviewer #3 noted that our results could be strengthened by performing similar analyses on the output of computational models of grid cells. This is a good idea. We have now measured the variability of grid properties in a recent normative recurrent neural network (RNN) model that develops grid cells when trained to perform path integration (Sorscher et al., 2019). This model has been shown to develop signatures of a 2D toroidal attractor (Sorscher et al., 2023) and achieves a high accuracy on a simple path integration task. Interestingly, the units with the greatest grid scores also exhibit a range of grid spacings and grid orientations (Fig S8 of the revised manuscript). Furthermore, by decreasing the amount of sparsity (through decreasing the weight decay regularization), we found an increase in the variability of the grid properties. This analysis demonstrates a heretofore unknown similarity between the RNN models trained to perform path integration and recorded grid cells from MEC. It additionally provides a framework for computational analysis of the emergence of grid property variability.

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) Is the variability in grid spacing and orientation that the authors found intrinsically organized or is it shaped by experience? Previous research has shown that grid representations can be modified through experience (e.g., Boccara et al., Science 2019). To understand the dynamics of the network, it would be important to investigate whether robust variability exists from the beginning of the task period (recording period) or whether variability emerges in an experience-dependent manner within a session.

      This is an interesting question that was not addressed in the paper. To test this, we performed additional analysis to resolve whether the variability changes across a session.

      Using a sliding window, we have measured changes in variability with respect to recording time (Fig S5A). To this end, we compute grid orientation and spacing over a time-window whose length is half the total length of the recording. From the population distribution of orientation and spacing values, we compute the standard deviation as a measure of variability. We repeat the same procedure, sliding the window forward until the variability for the second half of the recording is computed.

      We applied this approach to recording ID R12 (the same as in Figs 2-4) given that this recording session was significantly longer than the rest (nearly two hours). Results are shown in Fig S5B-C. For both orientation and spacing, no changes of variability with respect to time can be observed. Similar results were found for other modules (see caption of Fig S5 for statistics).

      We also note that the rats were already familiarized with the environment for 10-20 sessions prior to the recordings, so there may not be further learning during the period of the grid cell recordings. No changes in variability can be seen in Rat R across days (e.g., in Fig 5B R12 and R22 have similar distributions of variability). However, we note that it may be possible that there are changes in grid properties at time-scales greater than the recordings.

      (2) It is important to consider the optimal variability size. The larger the variability, the better it is for decoding. On the other hand, as the authors state in the

      Discussion, it is assumed that variability does not exist in the continuous attractor model. Although this study describes that it does not address how such variability fits the attractor theory, it would be better if more detailed ideas and suggestions were provided as to what direction the study could take to clarify the optimal size of variability.

      We appreciate this suggestion and agree that more discussion is warranted on how our results can be reconciled with previously observed attractor dynamics. To explore this, we studied the recurrent neural network (RNN) model from Sorscher et al. (2019), which develops grid responses when trained on path integration. This network has previously been found to develop signatures of toroidal topology (Sorscher et al., 2023), yet we find its grid responses also contain heterogeneity in grid properties (Fig S8). By decreasing the strength of the weight decay regularization (which leads to denser connectivity in the recurrent layer), we find an increase in the grid property variability. Interestingly, decreasing the weight decay regularization has been previously found to lead to weaker grid responses and worse ability of the RNN to perform path integration on environments larger than it was trained on. This approach not only provides preliminary evidence to our claim that too much variability can lead to weaker continuous attractor structure, but also provides a modeling framework with which future work can explore this question in more detail. We have added discussion of this issue to the manuscript text (Discussion).

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) Even though theoreticians might have gotten the mistaken impression that grid cells are highly regular, this might be due to an overemphasis on regularity in a subset of papers. Most experimentalists working with grid cells know that many if not most grid cells show high variability of firing fields within a single neuron, though this analysis focuses on between neurons. In response to this comment, the reviewers should tone down and modify their statements about what are the current assumptions of the field (and if possible provide a short supplemental section with direct quotes from various papers that have made these assumptions).

      We agree that some experimentalists are aware of variability in the recorded grid response patterns and that this work may not come as a complete surprise to them. We have toned down our language in the Introduction, changing “our results challenge a long-held assumption” to “our results challenge a frequently made assumption in the theoretical literature”. Additionally, we have added a caveat that “experimentalists have been aware” of the observed variability in grid properties.

      We would like to emphasize that the lack of work carefully examining the robustness of this variability has prevented a firm understanding of whether this is an inherent property of grid cells or due to measurement noise. The impact of this can be seen in theoretical neuroscience work where a considerable number of articles (including recent publications) start with the assumption that all grid cells within a module have identical properties, with the exception of phase shift and noise. We have now cited a number of these papers in the Introduction, to provide specific references. To further illustrate the pervasiveness of this assumption being explicitly made in theoretical neuroscience, below we provide quotes from a few important papers:

      “Cells with a common spatial period also share a common grid orientation; their responses differ only by spatial translations, or different preferred firing phases, with respect to their common response period” (Sreenivasan and Fiete, 2011)”

      “Grid cells are organized into discrete modules; within each module, the spatial scale and orientation of the grid lattice are the same, but the lattice for different cells is shifted in space.” (Stemmler et al., 2015)”

      “Recently, it was shown that grid cells are organized in discrete modules within which cells share the same orientation and periodicity but vary randomly in phase” (Wei et al., 2015)”

      “...cells within one module have receptive fields that are translated versions of one another, and different modules have firing lattices of different scales and orientations” (Dorrell et al., 2023)”

      In these works, this assumption is used to derive properties relating to the computational properties of grid cells (e.g., error correction, optimal scaling between grid spacings in different modules).

      In addition, since grid cells are assumed to be identical in the computational neuroscience community, there has been little work on quantifying how much variability a given model produces. This makes it challenging to understand how consistent different models are with our observations. This is illustrated in our analysis of a recent recurrent neural network (RNN) model of grid cells (Fig S8), which does exhibit variability.

      (2) The authors state that "no characterization of the degree and robustness of variability in grid properties within individual modules has been performed." It is always dangerous to speak in absolute terms about what has been done in scientific studies. It is true that few studies have had the number of grid cells necessary to make comparisons within and between modules, but many studies have clearly shown the distribution of spacing in neuronal data (e.g. Hafting et al., 2005; Barry et al., 2007; Stensola et al., 2012; Hardcastle et al., 2015) so the variability has been visible in the data presentations. Also, most researchers in the field are well aware that highly consistent grid cells are much rarer than messy grid cells that have unevenly spaced firing fields. This doesn't hurt the importance of the paper, but they need to tone down their statements about the lack of previous awareness of variability (specific locations are noted in the specific comments).

      We have toned down our language in the Introduction. However, we note that our point that no detailed analysis had been done on measuring the robustness of this variability stands. Thus, for the general community, it has not been clear whether this previously observed variability is noise or a real feature of the grid code.

      (3) The methods section needs to have a separate subheading entitled: How grid cells were assigned to modules" that clearly describes how the grid cells were assigned to a module (i.e. was this done by Gardner et al., or done as part of this paper's post-processing?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this missing information. We have added a new subsection in the Materials and Methods section, entitled “Grid module classification” to clarify how the grid cells are assigned to modules. In short, this was done by Gardner et al. (2022) using an unsupervised clustering approach that was viewed as enabling a less biased identification of modules. We did not perform any additional processing steps on module identity.

      Reviewer #3:

      (1) One possible explanation of the dispersion in lambda (not in theta) could be variability in the typical width of the field. For a fixed spacing, wider fields might push the six fields around the center of the autocorrelogram toward the outside, depending on the details of how exactly the position of these fields is calculated. We recommend authors show that lambda does not correlate with field width, or at least that the variability explained by field width is smaller than the overall lambda variability.

      We agree that this option had not been carefully ruled out by our previous analyses. To tackle this question, we compute the field width of a given cell using the value at the minima of its spatial autocorrelogram (Fig S4A-B). For all cells in recording ID R12, there is a non-significant negative linear correlation between grid field width and between-cell variability (Fig S4C) . The variability explained by the width of the field is 4% of the variability, as indicated by the R<sup>2</sup> value of the linear fit. Similar results were found for all other modules (see caption of Fig S4C for statistics). Therefore, we do not think that grid field width explains spacing variability.

      (2) An alternative explanation could be related to what happens at the borders. The authors tackle this issue in Figure S2 but introduce a different way of measuring lambda based on three fields, which in our view is not optimal. We recommend showing that the dispersions in lambda and theta remain invariant as one removes the border-most part of the maps but estimating lambda through the autocorrelogram of the remaining part of the map. Of course, there is a limit to how much can be removed before measures of lambda and theta become very noisy.

      We have performed additional analysis to explore the role of borders in grid property variability. To do so, we have followed the suggestion by the reviewer and have re-analyzed grid properties from the autocorrelogram when the border-most part of the maps are removed (Fig S6A-B). For all modules, we do not see any changes in variability (computed as the standard deviation of the population distribution) for either orientation or spacing. As predicted by the reviewer, after removing about 25% of the border-most part of the environment we start seeing changes in variability, as measures of theta and lambda become noisy and computed over a smaller spatial range. This result holds for all other modules (Fig S6C-D).

      (3) A third possibility is slightly more tricky. Some works (for example Kropff et al, 2015) have shown that fields anticipate the rat position, so every time the rat traverses them they appear slightly displaced opposite to the direction of movement. The amount of displacement depends on the velocity. Maps that we construct out of a whole session should be deformed in a perfectly symmetric way if rats traverse fields in all directions and speeds. However, if the cell is conjunctive, we would expect a deformation mainly along the cell's preferred head direction. Since conjunctive cells have all possible preferred directions, and many grid cells are not conjunctive at all, this phenomenon could create variability in theta and lambda that is not a legitimate one but rather associated with the way we pool data to construct maps. To rule away this possibility, we recommend the authors study the variability in theta and lambda of conjunctive vs non-conjunctive grid cells. If the authors suspect that this phenomenon could explain part of their results, they should also take into account the findings of Gerlei and colleagues (2020) from the Nolan lab, that add complexity to this issue.

      We appreciate the reviewer pointing out the possible role conjunctive cells may play. To investigate how conjunctive cells may affect the observed grid property variability, we have performed additional analyses taking into account if the grid cells included in the study are conjunctive. Comparing within- and between-cell variability of conjunctive vs. non-conjunctive cells in recording R12, we do not see any qualitative differences for either orientation or spacing (Fig S7A-B). When excluding conjunctive cells from the between-variability comparison, we do not see any significant difference compared to when these cells are included (Fig S7C-D). As such, it does not appear that conjunctive cells are the source of variability in the population.

      We further note that the number of putative conjunctive cells varied across modules and recordings. For instance, in recording Q1 and Q2, Gardner et al. (2022) reported 3 (out of 97) and 1 (out of 66) conjunctive cells, respectively. Given that we see variability robustly across recordings (Fig 5), we do not believe that conjunctive cells can explain the presence of variability we observe.

      (4) The results in Figure 6 are correct, but we are not convinced by the argument. The fact that grid cells fire in the same way in different parts of the environment and in different environments is what gives them their appeal as a platform for path integration since displacement can be calculated independently of the location of the animal. Losing this universal platform is, in our view, too much of a price to pay when the only gain is the possibility of decoding position from a single module (or non-adjacent modules) which, as the authors discuss, is probably never the case. Besides, similar disambiguation of positions within the environment would come for free by adding to the decoding algorithm spatial cells (non-hexagonal but spatially stable), which are ubiquitous across the entorhinal cortex. Thus, it seems to us that - at least along this line of argumentation - with variability the network is losing a lot but not gaining much.

      We agree that losing the continuous attractor network (CAN) structure and the ability to path integrate would be a very large loss. However, we do not believe that the variability we observe necessarily destroys either the CAN or path integration. We argue this for two reasons. First, the data we analyzed [from Gardner et al. (2022)] is exactly the data set that was found to have toroidal topology and therefore viewed to be consistent with a major prediction of CANs. Thus, the amount of variability in grid properties does not rule out the underlying presence of a continuous attractor. Second, path integration may still be possible with grid cells that have variable properties. To illustrate this, we analyzed data from Sorscher et al. (2019) recurrent neural network model (RNN) that was trained explicitly on path integration, and found that the grid representations that emerged had variability in spacing and orientation (see point #6 below).

      (5) In Figure 4 one axis has markedly lower variability. Is this always the same axis? Can the authors comment more on this finding?

      We agree that in Fig 4 the first axis has lower variability. We believe that this is specific to the module R12 and does not reflect any differences in axis or bias in the methods used to compute the axis metrics. To test this, we have performed the same analyses for other modules, finding that other recordings do not exhibit the same bias. Results for the modules with the most cells are shown below (Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1.

      Grid propertied along Axis 1 are not less variable for many recorded grid modules. Same as Fig.4C-D, but for four other recorded modules. Note that the variability along each axis is similar.

      (6) The paper would gain in depth if maps coming out of different computational models could be analyzed in the same way.

      We agree with the reviewer that examining computational models using the same approach would strengthen our results and we appreciate the suggestion. To address this, we have analyzed the results from a previous normative model for grid cells [Sorscher et al., (2019)] that trained a recurrent neural network (RNN) model to perform path integration and found that units developed grid cell like responses. These models have been found to exhibit signatures of toroidal attractor dynamics [Sorscher et al. (2023)] and exhibit a diversity of responses beyond pure grid cells, making them a good starting point for understanding whether models of MEC may contain uncharacterized variability in grid properties.

      We find that RNN units in these normative models exhibit similar amounts of variability in grid spacing and orientation as observed in the real grid cell recordings (Fig S8A-D). This provides additional evidence that this variability may be expected from a normative framework, and that the variability does not destroy the ability to path integrate (which the RNN is explicitly trained to perform).

      The RNN model offers possibilities to assess what might cause this variability. While we leave a detailed investigation of this to future work, we varied the weight decay regularization hyper-parameter. This value controls how sparse the weights in the hidden recurrent layer are. Large weight decay regularization strength encourages sparser connectivity, while small weight decay regularization strength allows for denser connectivity. We find that increasing this penalty (and enforcing sparser connectivity) decreases the variability of grid properties (Fig S8E-F). This suggests that the observed variability in the Gardner et al. (2022) data set could be due to the fact that grid cells are synaptically connected to other, non-grid cells in MEC.

      (7) Similarly, it would be very interesting to expand the study with some other data to understand if between-cell delta_theta and delta_lambda are invariant across environments. In a related matter, is there a correlation between delta_theta (delta_lambda) for the first vs for the second half of the session? We expect there should be a significant correlation, it would be nice to show it.

      We agree this would be interesting to examine. For this analysis, it is essential to have a large number of grid cells, and we are not aware of other published data sets with comparable cell numbers using different environments.

      Using a sliding window analysis, we have characterized changes in variability with respect to the recording time (Figure S5A). To do so, we compute grid orientation and spacing over a time-window whose length is half of the total length of the recording. From the population distribution of orientation and spacing values, we compute the standard deviation as a measure of between-cell variability. We repeat the same procedure, sliding the window forward until the variability for the second half of the recording is computed.

      We applied this approach to recording ID R12 (the same as in Figs 2-4) given that this recording session was significantly longer than the rest (almost two hours). Results are shown in Fig S5 B-C. For both orientation and spacing, no systematic changes of variability with respect to time were observed. Similar results were found for other modules (see caption of Fig S5 for statistics).

      We also note that the rats were already familiarized with the environment for 10-20 sessions prior to the recordings, so there may not be further learning during the period of the grid cell recordings. No changes in variability can be seen in Rat R across days (e.g., in Fig 5B R12 and R22 have similar distributions of variability). However, we note that it may be possible that there are changes in grid properties at time-scales greater than the recordings.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript entitled "Hexokinase regulates Mondo-mediated longevity via the PPP and organellar dynamics", Laboy and colleagues investigated upstream regulators of MML-1/Mondo, a key transcription factor that regulates aging and metabolism, using the nematode C. elegans and cultured mammalian cells. By performing a targeted RNAi screen for genes encoding enzymes in glucose metabolism, the authors found that two hexokinases, HXK-1 and HXK-2, regulate nuclear localization of MML-1 in C. elegans. The authors showed that knockdown of hxk-1 and hxk-2 suppressed longevity caused by germline-deficient glp-1 mutations. The authors demonstrated that genetic or pharmacological inhibition of hexokinases decreased nuclear localization of MML-1, via promoting mitochondrial β-oxidation of fatty acids. They found that genetic inhibition of hxk-2 changed the localization of MML-1 from the nucleus to mitochondria and lipid droplets by activating pentose phosphate pathway (PPP). The authors further showed that the inhibition of PPP increased the nuclear localization of mammalian MondoA in cultured human cells under starvation conditions, suggesting the underlying mechanism is evolutionarily conserved. This paper provides compelling evidence for the mechanisms by which novel upstream metabolic pathways regulate MML-1/Mondo, a key transcription factor for longevity and glucose homeostasis, through altering organelle communications, using two different experimental systems, C. elegans and mammalian cells. This paper will be of interest to a broad range of biologists who work on aging, metabolism, and transcriptional regulation. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Raymond Laboy et.al explored how transcriptional Mondo/Max-like complex (MML-1/MXL-2) is regulated by glucose metabolic signals using germ-line removal longevity model. They believed that MML-1/MXL-2 integrated multiple longevity pathways through nutrient sensing and therefore screened the glucose metabolic enzymes that regulated MML-1 nuclear localization. Hexokinase 1 and 2 were identified as the most vigorous regulators, which function through mitochondrial beta-oxidation and the pentose phosphate pathway (PPP), respectively. MML-1 localized to mitochondria associated with lipid droplets (LD), and MML-1 nuclear localization was correlated with LD size and metabolism. Their findings are interesting and may help us to further explore the mechanisms in multiple longevity models, however, the study is not complete and the working model remains obscure. For example, the exact metabolites that account for the direct regulation of MML-1 were not identified, and more detailed studies of the related cellular processes are needed. 

      The identification of responsible metabolites is necessary since multiple pieces of evidence from the study suggests that lipid other than glucose metabolites may be more likely to be the direct regulator of MML-1 and HXK regulate MML-1 indirectly by affecting the lipid metabolism: 1) inhibiting the PPP is sufficient to rescue MML-1 function independent of G6P levels; 2) HXK-1 regulates MML-1 by increasing fatty acid beta-oxidation; 3) LD size correlates with MML-1 nuclear localization and LD metabolism can directly regulate MML-1. The identification of metabolites will be helpful for understanding the mechanism. 

      Beta-oxidation and the PPP are involved in the regulation of MML-1 by HXK-1 and HXK-2, respectively. But how these two pathways participate in the regulation is not clear. Is it the beta-oxidation rate or the intermediate metabolites that matters? As for the PPP, it provides substrates for nucleotide synthesis and also its product NADPH is essential for redox balance. Is one of the metabolites or the NADPH levels involved in MML-1 regulation? More studies are needed to provide answers to these concerns. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Following are my comments that the authors may want to address to further improve this excellent paper.

      Major comments 

      (1) Although the authors provided evidence that hexokinases in glucose metabolism are associated with germline-deficient glp-1(-) mutants, they did not mention why they focused on glp-1(-) mutants rather than other longevity mutants. In their previous study (Nakamura et al., 2016), they showed that MML-1 is required for multiple longevity pathways in C. elegans, including reduced mitochondrial respiration and insulin/IGF-1 signaling. Please discuss why the authors focused on glp-1(-) mutants in this paper. It will be even better if the authors test the roles of hexokinases in some other longevity regimens. 

      Many thanks for this astute comment. Previously we had shown that mml-1 is required for glp-1, daf-2, and isp-1 longevity, and Johnson et al. had shown a requirement for eat-2, hence the idea that MML-1 is a convergent transcription factor. We first focused on glp-1 because that was the starting point of our screen, and the result was clear and simple: hexokinases regulate MML‑1 nuclear localization and activity in glp-1 and are required for longevity. Naturally, the question arises: do hexokinases behave like MML-1 as convergent longevity regulators across pathways? To address this, we examined the interaction of hxk-1 and hxk-2 with isp-1, daf-2, and raga-1.  Specifically, we now show that:

      A. Like glp-1(e2141) mutants, isp-1(qm150) mutants stimulate MML-1 nuclear localization, and the hexokinases are required for isp-1 longevity (Figure 1G-H).

      B. daf-2(e1370) mutants do not further stimulate MML-1 nuclear localization beyond basal levels, yet MML-1 is strongly required for daf-2 longevity (Nakamura et al., 2016, Supplementary Figure 1L-M). However, the hexokinases are not required for daf-2 longevity (Supplementary Figure 1M), suggesting that the signaling pathway is wired differently in daf-2, and that other pathways regulate MML-1 activity.

      C. raga-1(ok701) mutants stimulate MML-1 nuclear localization and mml-1 is required for raga-1 longevity, suggesting that MML-1 acts downstream of TORC1 signaling (Supplementary Figure 1N-O). However, hexokinases are not required for raga-1 longevity, suggesting that raga-1 acts downstream or parallel to hexokinase signaling (Supplementary Figure 1P).

      D. We performed untargeted metabolomics in glp-1, daf-2, and mml-1 single and double mutants and observed that hexose phosphates, which have been shown to regulate MML-1 human homologs MondoA/ChREBP, were differentially regulated between mutants.

      Author response image 1.

      E. Altogether these experiments reveal that though MML-1 promotes longevity in most pathways, the hexokinases are only required in some (glp-1, isp-1), but not others (raga-1, daf-2). Furthermore, strong MML-1 nuclear localization is often but not always associated with longevity (e.g. daf-2), and the wiring of the signaling pathway is different for various longevity regimens. Consistently, mTOR and Insulin signaling are more functionally linked and therefore may show a more similar genetic profile. Differences in hexose phosphate between glp-1 and daf-2 could explain why MML-1 requires hexokinase function in glp-1 to promote longevity but not in daf-2. However, considerably more work is required to rigorously validate this hypothesis.

      (2) In figure 5, the authors investigated whether the association between PPP and MML‑1/MondoA, tested in C. elegans, is conserved in mammals under starvation conditions. The authors should clarify why they tested the MondoA localization upon starvation in cultured human cells. This comment is related to my comment #1 as the authors could determine the roles of hexokinases under dietary restriction (DR)-conditions or in DR-mimetic in eat-2(-) mutants. 

      In this case, the actual translatability to a worm longevity pathway was not our goal. Rather, we examined MondoA in cell culture under contrasting conditions of MondoA subcellular localization, where high glucose media had cytosolic/nuclear localization and starvation conditions cytosolic localization. We then showed that similar to our data in worms, PPP inhibition with 6-AN induced MondoA nuclear localization and activity. We now mention this rationale in the results section, lines 352-356.

      (3) In figure 2, the authors showed that HXK-2 regulates mitochondrial localization of MML-1, and HXK-1 regulates nuclear localization of MML-1 through mitochondrial β-oxidation in glp‑1(-) mutants. Can the authors test whether mitochondrial β-oxidation affects the effects of hxk RNAi on longevity of glp-1(-) mutants? 

      Excellent suggestion. We tried to test this idea and found that acs-2 RNAi alone abolished glp-1 longevity, making epistasis experiments difficult to interpret. This is consistent with published data showing that glp-1 longevity requires NHR-49, a transcription factor that regulates mitochondrial b‑oxidation, that drives acs-2 expression (Ratnappan et al., 2014). It could well be that b‑oxidation inhibition promotes MML-1 nuclear localization but abolishes lifespan extension because of epistatic effects on other transcription factors or processes. Further investigation would be required to elucidate the exact mechanism that goes beyond the scope of the paper.

      (4) The authors showed that 2-deoxy-glucose, which decreases the activity of HXK, decreased the nuclear localization of MML-1, and this is consistent with their genetic data. Based on these data, 2-deoxy-glucose is expected to decrease longevity. Interestingly, however, 2-deoxy-glucose has been reported to increase lifespan by restricting glucose, whereas extra glucose intake decreases lifespan in C. elegans, shown by multiple research groups, including M. Ristow, C. Kenyon, and S.J.V. Lee labs. This is seemingly paradoxical and worth discussing with key references, especially because MondoA and Chrebp are known as glucose-responsive transcription factors. 

      Thank you for this important comment. 2-DG has been shown to extend lifespan by suppressing glucose metabolism at concentrations ranging from 0.1 to 5 mM, higher concentrations ranging from 20 to 50 mM had the opposite effect decreasing lifespan (Schulz et al., 2007). The concentration we tested was 50 mM 2-DG and observed decreased MML-1 nuclear localization, which is consistent with the previous data showing decreased longevity. We now raise this point in the discussion suggesting that mild inhibition of glucose metabolism has beneficial effects on longevity, while strong suppression causes a shortening of the lifespan (lines 411-414).

      Minor comments 

      (1) The current Introduction does not include the explicit statement about that MML-1 and MondoA are homologs. Please clarify this as naive readers may be confused.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We now say in the intro that MondoA and MML-1 are homologs (lines 59-60).

      (2) In figure 1, the effects of hxk-3 on nuclear localization of MML-1 is small compared to those of hxk-1 and hxk-2. Please add speculation about why HXK-3 has different roles in nuclear localization of MML-1 compared to HXK-1 and HXK-2. 

      According to GExplore 1.4 (Hutter & Suh, 2016), hxk-3 expression declines during larval development and is low expressed in the adult. Perhaps it has little effect in the young adult, and the other hexokinases suffice to support MML-1 nuclear localization. It also remains possible that hxk-3 is not required in glp-1, but required in other longevity pathways.

      (3) The authors tested the effects of genetic inhibition of hxk-1 and hxk-2 on the regulation of MML-1 localization and lifespan of glp-1(-) mutants by using RNAi. I wonder whether the authors can perform the experiments with hxk-1 or hxk-2 loss (or reduction) of function mutants. If they cannot, please discuss the reason and the limitations of RNAi. 

      This is an important point raised by the reviewer. We found that RNAi was most effective for phenotypes related to MML-1 nuclear localization and longevity, likely because it results in acute knockdown. We also showed that pharmacological inhibition of hexokinase function with 3BrP and 2‑DG (Supplementary Figure 1B and 1C) and the PPP with 6-AN (Figure 3B) had consistent results with our observation with RNAi.

      We generated hexokinase KO mutants by deleting the coding sequence of each hexokinase by CRISPR/Cas9. First, we measured the expression of each hexokinase isozyme in each mutant. Notably, hxk-1(syb1271) null mutant had higher expression of hxk-2 and hxk-3, hxk-2(syb1261) did not significantly affect the expression of hxk-1 and hxk-3, and hxk-3(syb1267) had a mild increase in hxk-2 expression. We followed up on the hxk-1(syb1271) and hxk-2(syb1261) and crossed these mutants with our MML-1::GFP reporter. We observed a modest but significant reduction in MML-1 nuclear localization in both strains. The effect with RNAi is much stronger in comparison to the null mutants, potentially due to a compensatory upregulation of the other hexokinases in the mutants that we do not observe with RNAi (Supplementary Figure 1D-E). Another alternative is that there is a threshold in the effects of hexokinase function on MML-1 nuclear localization. We tried to generate a hxk-1; hxk-2 double mutant but it was lethal and therefore did not pursue this further.

      Author response image 2.

      (4) Please correct minor typos throughout the manuscript. Following are some examples. <br /> - On page 4, line 111, please correct "Supplementary Figure D-E" to "Supplementary Figure 1D-E". 

      - On page 9, line 272, please correct "3A-B" to "4A-B". 

      - On page 9, line 275, please correct "S4" to "4". 

      - On page 10, line 309, please correct "4A" to "4B" 

      Corrected.

      (5) In Fig. 3E, please add the information about the scale bars in figure legends.

      Corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Here are some detailed suggestions for the authors:

      (1) Since MML-1/MXL-2 complex functions in multiple longevity models, e.g. DR, ILS, what are the roles of HXK-1 and HXK-2 in these models? 

      We now show that although mml-1 is required in most longevity pathways, hxk-1 and hxk-2 are required in some pathways (glp-1, isp-1) but not others (daf-2, raga-1). See above for more details.

      (2) As for the metabolites screening, the lipid metabolic genes can be included. Not only for the above reasons, also previous study had found that the mml-1 mRNA levels and MML-1 GFP nuclear localization were all increased in the glp-1 model, while mml-1 mRNA levels were unaffected by hxk knockdown, suggesting more pathways be involved. 

      We agree with the reviewer that understanding what metabolites regulate MML-1 nuclear localization and activity is an important, yet challenging question. Our studies demonstrate a role of glucose metabolism, in particular, hexokinase in this process, consistent with hexose-p being activators of MondoA. Our data also suggest mechanisms beyond hexose-p regulate MML-1, since knockdown of the PPP components stimulates MML-1 even when hxk-2 is depleted and low G6P, and inhibition of the PPP with 6-AN stimulates MondoA nuclear localization under starvation conditions in mammalian cell culture. We tested redox regulation, nucleoside, and lipid metabolism as candidate processes (see below). Notably, our data suggest this other mechanism is tied to lipid metabolism through droplet size since various perturbations that impact LD size and number (atgl-1, dgat-2, tkt-1, Figure 4) affected MML-1 nuclear localization. It remains an open question whether MML-1 is regulated by other metabolites through a ligand-protein interaction or not. We cannot exclude that beyond lipid droplet regulation, specific lipids, other metabolites, or metabolic modules linked to the PPP might regulate MML-1 nuclear localization and activity.

      We employed genetic manipulation and pharmacological inhibition to understand the upstream signals that regulate MML-1. These approaches will not be sufficient to determine whether other metabolite(s) are involved in MML-1/MondoA translocation to the nucleus through a direct interaction. Novel technologies that determine protein-metabolite interactions (e.g. MIDAS) will help us answer this question in future work, and go beyond the scope of this paper. As a compromise, we discuss possible metabolites that may orchestrate this based on our observations based on MML‑1 subcellular localization at LD/mitochondria (including PPP and TCA cycle intermediates).

      (3) Line 238, it should be "NADPH". 

      Corrected.

      (4) RNAi targeting enzymes of different branches of PPP can be performed

      In our initial screen, we examined the effect of various enzymes of the PPP on MML-1 nuclear localization (Figure 1A, Supplementary Table S1) and found that knockdown of enzymes in both the oxidative phase (PGDH/T25B9.9) and non-oxidative phase (transketolase/TKT-1) affect MML-1 nuclear localization. In line, 6-AN treatment, which affects the oxidative phase, also stimulated MML‑1 nuclear localization (Figure 3B). We also observed that knockdown of enzymes involved in ribose 5P conversion to ribose, ribose 1P, and phosphoribosyl pyrophosphate, an intermediate in nucleotide biosynthesis, decreased MML-1 nuclear localization (rpia-1, F07A11._5, _Y43F4B.5, _R151._2; Supplementary Table S1). Whether MML‑1/MondoA responds to nucleotide pool remains elusive.

      (5) As for PPP, these are many possibilities that can be tested. For example, as PPP supplies NADPH for oxidative balance, does MML-1 respond to ROS? Also, it appears the genes in the non-oxidative arm of PPP regulate MML-1, so is nucleotide synthesis involved? 

      Thank you for the suggestion. We tested other enzymes involved in NADPH production from the folate cycle and observed a mild but significant reduction of MML-1 nuclear localization upon dao-3i (Supplementary Table S1). Moreover, we tested whether MML-1 nuclear localization is responsive to ROS. While paraquat exposure induced oxidative stress by measuring the transcriptional reporter gst‑4p::GFP (Supplementary Figure 3A), paraquat exposure did not significantly affect MML-1 nuclear localization (Supplementary Figure 3B). Therefore we think it less likely that NADPH production acting through redox regulation is the main effect.

      We also tried supplementation with some of the metabolite outputs of PPP including ribose, ribulose, and xylulose, as well as nucleosides (see below), but saw no effect on MML-1 nuclear localization. We agree that further studies are required to pinpoint whether there is another metabolic moiety regulating MML-1 at the protein-ligand level, but this goes beyond the scope of the current investigation.

      Author response image 2.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1. Experiments regarding the inducible expression of MukBEF: The authors should provide western blots or rt-qPCR for MukBEF expression at 40 min and 2H.

      We provide now a western blot of MukB in non-induced and induced conditions as Figure 1-figure supplement 1D.

      1. Experiments with RiTer and LiTer constructs:<br /> a. Authors compare the mukB deletion against wild type (Fig. 2C). It would be additionally informative if these comparisons are made for matP deletion and wild type as well. This will strengthen the conclusion that long-range interactions in ter do increase in the absence of matP.

      We agree that the matP mutant may help the reader to compare the effect of the translocation in different backgrounds and have added it to the figure. This strengthens the conclusion that longrange interactions in ter do increase in the absence of matP in a rearranged chromosome, as observed in the WT configuration (Lioy et al., 2018).

      b. Additionally, in Fig. 2C, it appears that there is some decrease in long-range interactions in the absence of mukB in ter1 (Riter). Is this a significant change?

      The change observed is not significant. The results shown in Fig. 2C have been obtained using a 3C approach, which generated slightly more variability than Hi-C. Furthermore, we measured the range of contacts for the segment corresponding to Ter1 in RiTer (matS12-matS28), in different genetic contexts and different configurations. The results show that this level of variation is not significant (see graph below reporting two independent experiments).

      Author response image 1.

      Range of interactions measured on the interval matS12-matS18 in different genetic contexts and different configurations (MG1655 WT(1 and 2), ∆mukB, RiTer, RiTer ∆mukB).

      1. Experiments with various matS organizations: These experiments are interesting and an important part of the paper. However, it is rather hard to visualize the chromosome conformations in the strains after transposition. To aid the reader (particularly with panel E), authors can provide schematics of the chromosome conformations and anticipated/ observed chromosomal interactions. Circular interaction plots would be useful here.

      We thank the reviewer for this interesting remark; we have tried in the past to represent these interactions using a circular representation (see for example the web site of Ivan Junier; https://treetimc.github.io/circhic/index.html). However, this representation is not trivial to apprehend for nonspecialists, especially in strains with a rearranged chromosome configuration. Nonetheless, we have added graphical circular representations of the chromosome configurations to help the reader.

      1. ChIP experiments:<br /> a. This section of the manuscript needs to be further strengthened. It is not clear whether the ChIP signal observed is significant (for example at T10 or T20 min, the peak value does not appear to go above 1.1 fold. Can the authors be sure that this small increase is not simply a consequence of increase in copy number of the loci around the origin, as replication has initiated?

      The basal value of the ChIP on the non-replicated sequences (between 0-3.5 Mb for 10 minutes and 0-3 Mb for 20 minutes) is 0.8 and 0.7, respectively, whereas the mean value of the replicated sequence is 1.6 and 1.45. So the enrichment observed for these two points is about 2-fold, not 1.1 and it is 4 fold for t40min. These values were obtained by dividing the number of normalized reads in the ChIP (the number of reads at each position divided by the total number of reads) by the normalized reads of the input. Therefore, the increase in copy number is considered in the calculation. Furthermore, we added a supplementary figure (Figure Sup9) in which we performed a ChIP without tags on synchronized cells, and in this case, we did not observe any enrichment triggered by replication.

      b. Authors make a conclusion that MukB loads behind the replication fork. However, the time resolution of the presented experiments is not sufficient to be certain of this. Authors would need to perform more time-resolved experiments for the same.

      Reviewer 1 is correct; we attempted to discriminate whether the observed enrichment is (i) associated with the replication fork since we observed a decrease in the center of the enrichment at oriC as the maximum enrichment moves away with the replication fork after 20 and 40 minutes, or (ii) associated with the newly replicated sequence. To investigate this, we attempted to induce a single round of replication by shifting the cells back to 40°C after 10 minutes at 30°C. Unfortunately, replication initiation is not immediately halted by shifting the cells to 40°C, and we were unable to induce a single round of replication. To clarify our conclusions, we modified our manuscript to

      “Altogether, these findings indicate that MukBEF is loaded into regions newly replicated either at the replication fork or even further behind it, except in the Ter region from which it would be excluded.”

      c. Authors conclude that in the LiTer7 strain, MukB signal is absent from Ter2. However, when compared with the ChIP profiles by eye across panels in A and B, this does not seem to be significant. In the same results sections, authors state that there is a 3-fold increase in MukB signal in other regions. The corresponding graph does not show the same.

      Rather than relying solely on the enrichment levels, which can be challenging to compare across different strains due to slight variations in replication levels, we believe there is a clear disruption in this profile that corresponds to the Ter2 sequence. Furthermore, this discontinuity in enrichment relative to the replication profile is also observable in the WT configuration. At T40min, MukB ChIPseq signals halt at the Ter boundary, even though Ter is actively undergoing replication, as evidenced by observations in the input data.

      Regarding the fold increase of MukB, Reviewer 1 is correct; we overestimated this enrichment in the text and have now corrected it.

      d. Authors should provide western blot of MukB-Flag.

      We have added Supplementary Figure 1 D, which contains a Western blot of MukB-Flag.

      1. The bioinformatic analysis of matS site distribution is interesting, but this is not followed upon. The figure (Fig 5) is better suited in the supplement and used only as a discussion point.

      We acknowledge the reviewer's point, but we used this section to attempt to extend our findings to other bacteria and emphasize the observation that even though a few matS sites are necessary to inhibit MukBEF, the Ter domains are large and centered on dif even in other bacteria.

      1. The discussion section is lacking many references and key papers have not been cited (paragraph 1 of discussion for example has no references).

      The possibility that SMC-ScpAB and MukBEF can act independent of replication has been suggested previously, but are not cited or discussed. Similarly, there is some evidence for SMC-ScpAB association with newly replicated DNA (PMID 21923769).

      We have added references to the suggested paragraph and highlighted the fact that MukBEF's activity independent of replication was already known. However, we believe that the situation is less clear for SMC-ScpAB in B. subtilis or C. crescentus. In a similar manner, we found no clear evidence that SMCScpAB is associated with newly replicated DNA in the referenced studies.

      To clarify and enrich the discussion section, we have added a paragraph that provides perspective on the loading mechanisms of SMC-ScpAB and MukBEF.

      1. There are minor typographical errors that should be corrected. Some are highlighted here:

      a. Abstract: L5: "preferentially 'on' instead of 'in'"

      b. Introduction: Para 1 L8: "features that determine"

      c. Introduction: Para 2 L1: please check the phrasing of this line

      d. Results section 2: L1: Ter "MD" needs to be explained

      e. Page 8: Para 2: L6: "shows that 'a'"

      g. Page 13: Para 2: "MukBEF activity...". This sentence needs to be fixed.

      i. Figure 4: "input" instead of "imput"

      We thank Reviewer 1 for pointing out all these grammatical or spelling mistakes. We have corrected them all.

      f. Page 12: Para 2: "Xer" instead of "XDS"? *We added a reference to clarify the term.

      h. Methods: ChIP analysis: Authors state "MatP peaks", however, reported data is for MukB

      This description pertains to the matP peak detection shown in Supplementary Figure 3. We have incorporated this clarification into the text.

      j. Supplementary figure legends need to be provided (currently main figure legends appear to be pasted twice)

      Supplementary figure legends are provided at the end of the manuscript, and we have edited the manuscript to remove one copy of the figure legends.

      k. Authors should ensure sequencing data are deposited in an appropriate online repository and an accession number is provided.

      We waited for the appropriate timing in the editing process to upload our data, which we have now done. Additionally, we have added a data availability section to the manuscript, including sequence references on the NCBI.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors largely avoid speculation on what might be the physiological relevance of the exclusion of MukBEF (and Smc-ScpAB) from the replication termination region (and the coordination with DNA replication). At this stage it would be helpful to present possible scenarios even if not yet supported by data. The authors should for example consider the following scenario: loop extrusion of a dif site in a chromosome dimer followed by dimer resolution by dif recombination leads to two chromosomes that are linked together by MukBEF (equivalent to cohesin holding sister chromatids together in eukaryotes but without a separase). This configuration (while rare) will hamper chromosome segregation. Is MatP particularly important under conditions of elevated levels of chromosome dimers? Could this even be experimentally tested? Other scenarios might also be entertained.

      Even though we prefer to avoid speculations, we agree that we may attempt to propose some hypotheses to the reader. To do so, we have added a few sentences at the end of our discussion. “We may speculate, based on in vitro observations (Kumar et al., 2022), that MukBEF could interfere with TopIV activity and delay potential chromosome decatenation. Another possibility is that chromosome dimers resolved at the dif site may become trapped in loops formed by MukBEF, thus delaying segregation. But none of these possible scenarios are supported by data yet, and a major challenge for the future is to determine whether and how MukBEF may interfere with one or both of these processes.”

      The manuscript text is well written. However, the labeling of strains in figures and text is sometimes inconsistent which can be confusing (LiTer Liter liter; e.g Riter Fig 2C). For consistency, always denote the number of matS sites in LiTer strains and also in the RiTer strain. The scheme denoting LiTer and RiTer strains should indicate the orientation of DNA segments so it is clear that the engineering does not involve inversion (correct?). Similarly: Use uniform labelling for time points: see T40mn vs 40mn vs T2H vs 2H

      We have reviewed the manuscript to standardize our labeling. Additionally, we have included a schema in Figure 2, indicating the matS numbers at the Ter border to emphasize that the transposition events do not involve inversion.

      matS sites do not have identical sequences and bind different levels of MatP (suppl fig 3). Does this possibly affect the interpretation of some of the findings (when altering few or only a single matS site). Maybe a comment on this possibility can be added.

      We agree with the referee; we do not want to conclude too strongly about the impact of matS density, so we have added this sentence at the end of the section titled 'matS Determinants to Prevent MukBEF Activity':

      “Altogether, assuming that differences in the matS sequences do not modify MatP's ability to bind to the chromosome and affect its capacity to inhibit MukBEF, these results suggested that the density of matS sites in a small chromosomal region has a greater impact than dispersion of the same number of matS sites over a larger segment”

      Figure 5: show selected examples of matS site distribution in addition to the averaged distribution (as in supplemental figure)?

      Figure 5 shows the median of the matS distribution based on the matS positions of 16 species as displayed in the supplementary figure. We believe that this figure is interesting as it represents the overall matS distribution across the Enterobacterales, Pasteurellales, and Vibrionales.

      How do authors define 'background levels' (page 9)in their ChIP-Seq experiments? Please add a definition or reword.

      We agree that the term 'background level' here could be confusing, so we have modified it to 'basal level' to refer to the non-replicating sequence. The background level can be observed in Supplementary Figure 9 in the ChIP without tags, and, on average, the background level is 1 throughout the entire chromosome in these control experiments.

      This reviewer would naively expect the normalized ChIP-Seq signals to revolve around a ratio of 1 (Fig. 4)? They do in one panel (Figure 4B) but not in the others (Figure 4A). Please provide an explanation.

      We thank the referee for this pertinent observation. An error was made during the smoothing of the data in Figure 4A, which resulted in an underestimation of the input values. This mistake does not alter the profile of the ChIP (it's a division by a constant) and our conclusions. We provide a revised version of the figure.

      Inconsistent axis labelling: e.g Figure 4

      Enterobacterals should be Enterobacterales (?)

      KB should be kb

      MB should be Mb

      Imput should be Input

      FlaG should be Flag

      We have made the suggested modifications to the text.

      'These results unveiled that fluorescent MukBEF foci previously observed associated with the Ori region were probably not bound to DNA' Isn't the alternative scenario that MukBEF bound to distant DNA segments colocalize an equally likely scenario? Please rephrase.

      Since we lack evidence regarding what triggers the formation of a unique MukB focus associated with the origin and what this focus could represent, we have removed this sentence.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The text is well-written and easy to follow, but I would suggest several improvements to make things clearer:

      1. Many plots are missing labels or legends. (I) All contact plots such as Fig. 1C should have a color legend. It is not clear how large the signal is and whether the plots are on the same scale. (II)<br /> Ratiometric contact plots such as in Fig. 1D should indicate what values are shown. Is this a log ratio?

      As indicated in the materials and methods section, the ratio presented on this manuscript was calculated for each point on the map by dividing the number of contacts in one condition by the number of contacts in the other condition. The Log2 of the ratio was then plotted using a Gaussian filter.

      1. Genotypes and strain names are often inconsistent. Sometimes ΔmukB, ΔmatP, ΔmatS is used, other times it is just mukB, matP, matS; There are various permutations of LiTer, Liter, liter etc.

      These inconsistencies have been corrected.

      1. The time notation is unconventional. I recommend using 0 min, 40 min, 120 min etc. instead of T0, T40mn, T2H.

      As requested, we have standardized and used conventional annotations.

      1. A supplemental strain table listing detailed genotypes would be helpful.

      A strain table has been added, along with a second table recapitulating the positions of matS in the different strains.

      1. Fig. 1A: Move the IPTG labels to the top? It took me a while to spot them.

      We have moved the labels to the top of the figure and increased the font size to make them more visible.

      1. Fig 1C: Have these plots been contrast adjusted? If so, this should be indicated. The background looks very white and the transitions from diagonal to background look quite sharp.

      No, these matrices haven't been contrast-adjusted. They were created in MATLAB, then exported as TIFF files and directly incorporated into the figure. Nevertheless, we noticed that the color code of the matrix in Figure 3 was different and subsequently adjusted it to achieve uniformity across all matrices.

      7, Fig 1C: What is the region around 3 Mb and 4 Mb? It looks like the contacts there are somewhat MukBEF-independent.

      The referee is right. In the presence of the plasmid pPSV38 (carrying the MukBEF operon or not), we repeatedly observed an increase of long range contacts around 3 Mb. The origin of these contacts is unknown.

      1. Fig 1D: Have the log ratios been clipped at -1 and 1 or was some smoothing filter applied? I would expect the division of small and noisy numbers in the background region to produce many extreme values. This does not appear to be the case.

      The referee is right, dividing two matrices generates a ratio with extreme values. To avoid this, the Log2 of the ratio is plotted with a Gaussian filter, as described before (Lioy et al., 2018).

      1. Fig 1E: I recommend including a wild-type reference trace as a point of reference.

      We have added the WT profile to the figure.

      1. Fig 2: I feel the side-by-side cartoon from Supplemental Fig. 2A could be included in the main figure to make things easier to grasp.

      We added a schematic representation of the chromosome configuration on top of the matrices to aid understanding.

      1. Fig. 2C: One could put both plots on the same y-axis scale to make them comparable.

      We have modified the axes as required.

      1. Fig. 3C: The LiTer4 ratio plot has two blue bands in the 3-4.5 Mb region. I was wondering what they might be. These long-range contacts seem to be transposition-dependent and suppressed by MatP, is that correct?

      The referee is right. This indicates that in the absence of MatP, one part of the Ter was able to interact with a distal region of the chromosome, albeit with a low frequency. The origin is not yet known.

      1. Fig. 3E: It is hard to understand what is a strain label and what is the analyzed region of interest. The plot heading and figure legend say Ter2 (but then, there are different Ter2 variants), some labels say Ter, others say Ter2, sometimes it doesn't say anything, some labels say ΔmatS or ΔmatP, others say matS or matP, and so on.

      We have unified our notation and add more description on the legend to clarify this figure :

      “Ter” corresponds to the range of contacts over the entire Ter region, in the WT strain (WT Ter) or in the ΔmatP strain (ΔmatP Ter). The column WT matSX-Y corresponds to the range of contacts between the designated matS sites in the WT configuration. This portion of the Ter can be compared with the same Ter segment in the transposed strain (Ter2). Additionally, the matS20-28 segment corresponds to Ter2 in LiTer9, just as matS22-28 corresponds to Ter2 in LiTer7, and matS25-28 to Ter2 in LiTer4. The range of contacts of this segment was also measured in a ΔmatP or ΔmatS background.”

      1. Fig. 4 and p.9: "Normalized ChIP-seq experiments were performed by normalizing the quantity of immuno-precipitated fragments to the input of MukB-Flag and then divide by the normalized ChIP signals at t0 to measure the enrichment trigger by replication."

      This statement and the ChIP plots in Fig. 4A are somewhat puzzling. If the data were divided by the ChIP signal at t0, as stated in the text, then I would expect the first plot (t0) to be a flat line at value 1. This is not the case. I assume that normalized ChIP is shown without the division by t0, as stated in the figure legend.

      The referee is right. This sentence has been corrected, and as described in the Methods section, Figure 4 shows the ChIP normalized by the input.

      If that's true and the numbers were obtained by dividing read-count adjusted immunoprecipitate by read-count adjusted input, then I would expect an average value of 1. This is also not the case. Why are the numbers so low? I think this needs some more details on how the data was prepared.

      The referee is right; we thank him for this remark. Our data are processed using the following method: the value of each read is divided by the total number of reads. A sliding window of 50 kb is applied to these normalized values to smooth the data. Then, the resulting signal from the ChIP is divided by the resulting signal from the input. This is what is shown in Figure 4. Unfortunately, for some of our results, the sliding window was not correctly applied to the input data. This did not alter the ChIP profile but did affect the absolute values. We have resolved this issue and corrected the figure.

      Another potential issue is that it's not clear what the background signal is and whether it is evenly distributed. The effect size is rather small. Negative controls (untagged MukB for each timepoint) would help to estimate the background distribution, and calibrator DNA could be used to estimate the signal-to-background ratio. There is the danger that the apparent enrichment of replicated DNA is due to increased "stickiness" rather than increased MukBEF binding. If any controls are available, I would strongly suggest to show them.

      To address this remark, a ChIP experiment with a non-tagged strain under comparable synchronization conditions has been performed. The results are presented as Supplementary Figure 9; they reveal that the enrichment shown in Figure 4 is not attributed to nonspecific antibody binding or 'stickiness’.

      1. Fig. 4A, B: The y-axes on the right are unlabeled and the figure legends mention immunoblot analysis, which is not shown.

      We labeled the y-axes as 'anti-Flag ChIP/input' and made corrections to the figure legend.

      1. Fig. 4B: This figure shows a dip in enrichment at the Ter2 region of LiTer7, which supports the authors' case. Having a side-by-side comparison with WT at 60 min would be good, as this time point is not shown in Fig. 4A.

      Cell synchronization can be somewhat challenging, and we have observed that the timing of replication restart can vary depending on the genetic background of the cells. This delay is evident in the case of LiTer7. To address this, we compared LiTer7 after 60 minutes to the wild type strain (WT) after 40 minutes of replication. Even though the duration of replication is 20 minutes longer in LiTer7, the replication profiles of these two strains under these two different conditions (40 minutes and 60 minutes) are comparable and provide a better representation of similar replication progression.

      1. Fig. 4C: Highlighting the position of the replication origin would help to interpret the data.

      We highlight oriC position with a red dash line

      1. Fig. 4C: One could include a range-of-contact plot that compares the three conditions (similar to Fig. 1E).

      We have added this quantification to Supplemental Figure 8

      1. Supplemental Fig. 2A: In the LiTer15 cartoon, the flanking attachment sites do not line up. Is this correct? I would also recommend indicating the direction of the Ter1 and Ter2 regions before and after recombination.

      In this configuration, attB and attR, as well as attL and attB', should be aligned but the remaining attR attL may not. We have corrected this misalignment. To clarify the question of sequence orientation, we have included in the figure legend that all transposed sequences maintain their original orientation.

      1. Supplemental Fig. 3: One could show where the deleted matS sites are.

      We added red asterisks to the ChIP representation to highlight the positions of the missing matS.

      1. Supplemental Fig. 3B: The plot legend is inconsistent with panel A (What is "WT2")?

      We have corrected it.

      1. Supplemental Fig. 3C: The E-value notation is unusual. Is this 8.9 x 10^-61?

      The value is 8.9 x 10-61; we modified the annotation.

      23) Abstract: "While different features for the activity of the bacterial canonical SMC complex, SmcScpAB, have been described in different bacteria, not much is known about the way chromosomes in enterobacteria interact with their SMC complex, MukBEF."

      Could this be more specific? What features are addressed in this manuscript that have been described for Smc-ScpAB but not MukBEF? Alternatively, one could summarize what MukBEF does to capture the interest of readers unfamiliar with the topic.

      We modified these first sentences.

      1. p.5 "was cloned onto a medium-copy number plasmid under control of a lacI promoter" Is "lacI promoter" correct? My understanding is that the promoter of the lacI gene is constitutive, whereas the promoter of the downstream lac operon is regulated by LacI. I would recommend providing an annotated plasmid sequence in supplemental material to make things clearer.

      We modified it and replaced “ lacI promoter” with the correct annotation, pLac.

      1. p. 5 heading "MukBEF activity does not initiate at a single locus" and p. 6 "Altogether, the results indicate that the increase in contact does not originate from a specific position on the chromosome but rather appears from numerous sites". Although this conclusion is supported by the follow-up experiments, I felt it is perhaps a bit too strong at this point in the text. Perhaps MukBEF loads slowly at a single site, but then moves away quickly? Would that not also lead to a flat increase in the contact plots? One could consider softening these statements (at least in the section header), and then be more confident later on.

      We used 'indicate' and 'suggesting' at the end of this results section, and we feel that we have not overreached in our conclusions at this point. While it's true that we can consider other hypotheses, we believe that, at this stage, our suggestion that MukBEF is loaded over the entire chromosome is the simplest and more likely explanation.

      1. p.7: "[these results] also reveal that MukBEF does not translocate from the Ori region to the terminus of the chromosome as observed with Smc-ScpAB in different bacteria."

      This isn't strictly true for single molecules, is it? Some molecules might translocate from Ori to Ter. Perhaps clarify that this is about the bulk flux of MukBEF?

      At this point, our conclusion that MukBEF does not travel from the ori to Ter is global and refers to the results described in this section. However, the referee is correct in pointing out that we cannot exclude the possibility that in a WT configuration (without a Ter in the middle of the right replicore), a specific MukBEF complex can be loaded near Ori and travel all along the chromosome until the Ter. To clarify our statement, we have revised it to 'reveal that MukBEF does not globally translocate from the Ori region to the terminus of the chromosome.' This change is intended to highlight the fact that we are drawing a general conclusion about the behavior of MukBEF and to facilitate its comparison with Smc-ScpAB in B. subtilis.

      1. p. 10: The section title "Long-range contacts correlate with MukBEF binding" and the concluding sentence "Altogether, these results indicate that MukBEF promotes long-range DNA contacts independently of the replication process even though it binds preferentially in newly replicated regions" seem to contradict each other. I would rephrase the title as "MukBEF promotes long-range contacts in the absence of replication" or similar.

      We agree with this suggestion and have used the proposed title.

      1. p. 13: I recommend reserving the name "condensin" for the eukaryotic condensin complex and using "MukBEF" throughout.

      We used MukBEF throughout.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      Beyond what is stated in the title of this paper, not much needs to be summarized. eIF2A in HeLa cells promotes translation initiation of neither the main ORFs nor short uORFs under any of the conditions tested. 

      Strengths: 

      Very comprehensive, in fact, given the huge amount of purely negative data, an admirably comprehensive and well-executed analysis of the factor of interest. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The study is limited to the HeLa cell line, focusing primarily on KO of eIF2A and neglecting the opposite scenario, higher eIF2A expression which could potentially result in an increase in non-canonical initiation events. 

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation. As suggested by the reviewer in the detailed recommendations, we will clarify in the title, abstract and text that our conclusions are limited to HeLa cells. Furthermore, as suggested we will test the effect of eIF2A overexpression on the luciferase reporter constructs, and will upload a revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary 

      Roiuk et al describe a work in which they have investigated the role of eIF2A in translation initiation in mammals without much success. Thus, the manuscript focuses on negative results. Further, the results, while original, are generally not novel, but confirmatory, since related claims have been made before independently in different systems with Haikwad et al study recently published in eLife being the most relevant. 

      Despite this, we find this work highly important. This is because of a massive wealth of unreliable information and speculations regarding eIF2A role in translation arising from series of artifacts that began at the moment of eIF2A discovery. This, in combination with its misfortunate naming (eIF2A is often mixed up with alpha subunit of eIF2, eIF2S1) has generated a widespread confusion among researchers who are not experts in eukaryotic translation initiation. Given this, it is not only justifiable but critical to make independent efforts to clear up this confusion and I very much appreciate the authors' efforts in this regard.  

      Strengths 

      The experimental investigation described in this manuscript is thorough, appropriate and convincing. 

      Weaknesses 

      However, we are not entirely satisfied with the presentation of this work which we think should be improved. 

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation. We will revise the manuscript according to the reviewer's suggestions made in the detailed recommendations.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      This is a valuable study providing solid evidence that the putative non-canonical initiation factor eIF2A has little or no role in the translation of any expressed mRNAs in cultured human (primarily HeLa) cells. Previous studies have implicated eIF2A in GTP-independent recruitment of initiator tRNA to the small (40S) ribosomal subunit, a function analogous to canonical initiation factor eIF2, and in supporting initiation on mRNAs that do not require scanning to select the AUG codon or that contain near-cognate start codons, especially upstream ORFs with non-AUG start codons, and may use the cognate elongator tRNA for initiation. Moreover, the detected functions for eIF2A were limited to, or enhanced by, stress conditions where canonical eIF2 is phosphorylated and inactivated, suggesting that eIF2A provides a back-up function for eIF2 in such stress conditions. CRISPR gene editing was used to construct two different knockout cell lines that were compared to the parental cell line in a large battery of assays for bulk or gene-specific translation in both unstressed conditions and when cells were treated with inhibitors that induce eIF2 phosphorylation. None of these assays identified any effects of eIF2A KO on translation in unstressed or stressed cells, indicating little or no role for eIF2A as a back-up to eIF2 and in translation initiation at near-cognate start codons, in these cultured cells. 

      The study is very thorough and generally well executed, examining bulk translation by puromycin labeling and polysome analysis and translational efficiencies of all expressed mRNAs by ribosome profiling, with extensive utilization of reporters equipped with the 5'UTRs of many different native transcripts to follow up on the limited number of genes whose transcripts showed significant differences in translational efficiencies (TEs) in the profiling experiments. They also looked for differences in translation of uORFs in the profiling data and examined reporters of uORF-containing mRNAs known to be translationally regulated by their uORFs in response to stress, going so far as to monitor peptide production from a uORF itself. The high precision and reproducibility of the replicate measurements instil strong confidence that the myriad of negative results they obtained reflects the lack of eIF2A function in these cells rather than data that would be too noisy to detect small effects on the eIF2A mutations. They also tested and found no evidence for a recent claim that eIF2A localizes to the cytoplasm in stress and exerts a global inhibition of translation. Given the numerous papers that have been published reporting functions of eIF2A in specific and general translational control, this study is important in providing abundant, high-quality data to the contrary, at least in these cultured cells. 

      Strengths: 

      The paper employed two CRISPR knock-out cell lines and subjected them to a combination of high-quality ribosome profiling experiments, interrogating both main coding sequences and uORFs throughout the translatome, which was complemented by extensive reporter analysis, and cell imaging in cells both unstressed and subjected to conditions of eIF2 phosphorylation, all in an effort to test previous conclusions about eIF2A functioning as an alternative to eIF2. 

      Weaknesses: 

      There is some question about whether their induction of eIF2 phosphorylation using tunicamycin was extensive enough to state forcefully that eIF2A has little or no role in the translatome when eIF2 function is strongly impaired. Also, similar conclusions regarding the minimal role of eIF2A were reached previously for a different human cell line from a study that also enlisted ribosome profiling under conditions of extensive eIF2 phosphorylation; although that study lacked the extensive use of reporters to confirm or refute the identification by ribosome profiling of a small group of mRNAs regulated by eIF2A during stress. 

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation. We will revise the manuscript according to the recommendations made in the detailed recommendations. Regarding the two points mentioned here:

      (1) The reason eIF2alpha phosphorylation does not increase appreciably is because unfortunately the antibody is very poor. The fact that the Integrated Stress Response (ISR) is induced by our treatment can be seen, for instance, by the fact that ATF4 protein levels increase strongly (in the very same samples where eIF2alpha phosphorylation does not increase much, in Suppl. Fig. 5E). We will strengthen the conclusion that the ISR is indeed activated with additional experiments/data as suggested by the reviewer.

      (2) We agree that our results are in line with results from the previous study mentioned by the reviewer, so we will revise the manuscript to mention this other study more extensively in the discussion.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I suggest to state (already in the abstract, but perhaps also even in the title, definitely in the rest of the paper) that this analysis is limited to the HeLa cell line. 

      As suggested, we have now specified in both the title and the abstract that the work is done in HeLa cells.

      (2) In my view, it is a pity that the authors - given the tools are available - did not check the impact of high eIF2A levels on expression of individual mRNAs under normal and stress conditions. I am not suggesting to repeat ribo-seq in this setup, it would be too much to ask for, but re-examining some of the many reporters the authors generated with eIF2A overexpressed may point to some function, e.g. increased number of non-canonical initiation events (non-AUG-initiated)? If anything, the use of HeLa and the primary focus on eIF2A KO neglecting the prospective impact of eIF2A overexpression should be mentioned as two main limitations of this study. 

      We thank the reviewer for the good suggestion to test our synthetic reporters with eIF2A overexpression. New Suppl. Fig. 4G now shows that overexpression of eIF2A does not affect translation of synthetic reporters carrying an ATG start codon in different initiation contexts, or carrying near-cognate start codons, in agreement with a lack of effect on translation which we previously observed with loss of eIF2A.

      (3) Ribo-seq with eIF2A. Did the authors focus on ORFs that are known, or whose isoforms are known, to be non-AUG initiated? Would the loss of eIF2A decrease FPs in their CDSes under at least some conditions?

      We have now assessed the read distribution on the eIF4G2 transcript in both the control and tunicamycin conditions ( Author response image 1). In our hands, eIF4G2 is one of the best examples of non-AUG initiation in human cells, since the main coding sequence starts with GTG and the CDS is well translated. Nonetheless, we do not observe any significant changes in read distribution (panels A-B) or overall translation efficiency of eIF4G2 upon eIF2A loss (panels C-D).

      Author response image 1.

      (A-B) Average reads occupancy on the eIF4G2 (ENST0000339995) transcript in DMSO treated (panel A, n=3) or tunicamycin treated samples (panel B, n=2) derived from either control (black) or eIF2A-KO (red) HeLa cells. Reads counts were normalized to sequencing depth and averaged between either 3 (DMSO-treated) or 2 (tunicamycin-treated) replicates. Graphs were then smoothened with a sliding window of 3 nt. (C-D) The total number of reads mapping to the eIF4G2 CDS, normalized to library sequencing depth per replica was quantified. No significant difference between control and eIF2A-KO cells was observed in either DMSO treated (panel C) or tunicamycin treated (panel D) cells. Significance by unpaired, two-sided, t-test. ns = not significant.

      Thank you for giving me the opportunity to review this article.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      While some of our suggestions below may be considered subtle, in our opinion they are important and it would be good if the authors consider them for their revision, we also have a couple of technical suggestions. 

      (1) Abstract. 

      The authors failed to identify the role of eIF2A in translation initiation and have provided compelling evidence that eIF2A is not involved in recognition of non-AUG codons as start codons nor in recruitment of initiator tRNA during stress conditions which are two activities most commonly misattributed to eIF2A. However, they have not exhausted all possible potential functions of eIF2A, see below, it is also possible that eIF2A may have a role not yet suggested by anyone and it may function in translation initiation in special circumstances that have not been tested yet. The authors indeed discuss such possibility in the Discussion section. Given that there is genetic evidence (that is unaffected by biochemical impurities) linking eIF2A to other initiation factors (5B and 4E), we are not yet convinced that eIF2A does not have any role in translation initiation and therefore we find the last sentence of the abstract premature. We suggest to soften this statement into something like this: whether eIF2A has any role in translation remains unknown, it may even have a role in a different aspect of RNA Biology. 

      We agree with the reviewer. We changed the last sentence of the abstract to read as follows:

      “It is possible that eIF2A plays a role in translation regulation in specific conditions that we have not tested here, or that it plays a role in a different aspect of RNA biology.”

      (2) Recently eIF2A has been implicated in ribosomal frameshifting, see Wei et al 2023 DOI: 10.1016/j.celrep.2023.112987 

      Could authors look into PEG10 mRNA ribosome profile to see if there are detectable statistically significant changes in footprint density downstream of frameshift site between WT and eIF2A Kos? It is likely that the coverage will be insufficient to give a definitive answer, but it is worth checking, it would be a pity to miss it. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now looked at the distribution of ribosome footprints on the PEG10 transcript variant that is expressed in HeLa cells (ENST00000482108) and indeed observe coverage downstream of the annotated stop codon, consistent with a frameshifting event that results in an extended protein isoform being translated. Visual assessment of the read distribution between the main ORF and the "ORF extension" does not show a substantial difference between control and eIF2A knock-out cells ( Author response image 2A-B). Additionally, we quantified the ratio of reads mapping to the PEG10 ORF upstream of the slippery site versus those mapping downstream, extending into the predicted longer protein. Nonetheless, we could not detect significant changes between control and eIF2A-KO cells in either tested condition ( Author response image 2C-D).

      Author response image 2.

      (A-B) Average reads occupancy on the PEG10 (ENST00000482108) transcript in DMSO treated (panel A, n=3) or tunicamycin treated samples (panel B, n=2) derived from either control (black) or eIF2A-KO (red) HeLa cells are shown. Reads counts were normalized to sequencing depth and averaged between either 3 (DMSO-treated) or 2 (tunicamycin-treated) replicates. Graphs were then smoothened with a sliding window of 3 nt. (C-D) The ratio of reads mapping to the ORF upstream of the slippery site to reads mapping to the predicted extended protein downstream to the slippery site is shown. Reads counts were normalized to the sequencing depth. Neither DMSO treated samples (panel C) nor tunicamycin treated samples (panel D) had a significant difference between control and eIF2A-KO cells. Significance by unpaired, two-sided, t-test. ns = not significant.

      (3) Introduction 

      Given the volume of unreliable claims regarding eIF2A in the literature and the overall confusion it is very difficult (may even be impossible) to write a clear coherent introduction into the topic. Nonetheless, there are few points that need to be taken into account. 

      The authors state that eIF2A is capable to recruit initiator tRNA citing Zoll et al 2002. This activity was later shown to be a biochemical artefact (which was most likely reproduced by Kim et al 2018), eIF2A fraction was contaminated with eIF2D which does bind tRNAs in GTP-independent manner. eIF2A purified from RRL separates from initiator tRNA binding activity, see Dmitriev et al 2010 DOI: 10.1074/jbc.M110.119693. This point is also relevant to the second paragraph of Discussion, it should be acknowledged that it has been shown previously that eIF2A does not bind the initiator tRNA.

      We appreciate the advice provided by the reviewer. We have modified both the introduction and the 2nd paragraph of the discussion to reflect that the tRNA-binding activity is due to contaminating eIF2D rather than eIF2A.

      In many cases the authors describe certain claims as facts even though they refute them themselves. For example 

      "Such eIF2A-driven non-AUG initiation events were shown to play a crucial role in different aspects of cell physiology and disease progression: cellular adaptation during the integrated stress response (Chen et al., 2019; Starck et al., 2016)"  While non-AUG initiation events do play crucial roles in different aspects of cell physiology (reviewed in Andreev et al 2023 doi: 10.1186/s13059-022-02674-2) eIF2A has nothing to do with it as the authors show themselves. Therefore different language should be used, e.g.. "eIF2A has been suggested (or proposed or reported) to be responsible for non-AUG initiation events that were shown to play ..." 

      The word "shown" is used in many other instances for the claims that the authors refute. "Shown" is only appropriate for strong evidence that leaves little doubt. 

      We agree with the reviewer and made the suggested changes in the text.

      (4) Supplementary Fig. 1. 

      Panel C is used to argue that eIF2A has a higher concentration than in the nucleus, perhaps it is worth explaining how this conclusion was drawn. If levels in cytoplasm are comparable to GAPDH and Tubulin but less than c-Myc in nucleus does it really mean that there is less eIF2A in the nucleus than in cytoplasm? This is not obvious to us. Also, presumably WCL stands for Whole Cell Lysate, it would be nice to introduce this abbreviation somewhere. 

      To compare levels of eIF2A in the nuclear and cytosolic fractions, we lysed the two fractions in equal volumes of buffer (i.e. the cytosolic fraction was extracted in 200 µl of hypotonic buffer, and the nuclear fraction was extracted in 200 µl of cell extraction buffer). This assures that per microliter of lysate we have the same number of "cytosols" or nuclei. Hence, equal intensity bands in the cytosolic and nuclear fractions would mean that half of the protein is in the nucleus and half is in the cytosol. We originally described this in the Methods section, but now also mention it in the Results and in the figure legend.

      We replaced WCL with "whole cell" in the figure. 

      (5) The differential translation analysis is described very briefly "To obtain values of translation efficiency, log2 fold changes, and adjusted p values the DESeq2 software package was used". Was TE calculated based on ribosome footprint to RNA-seq ratios? How exactly DESeq2 was used here? TE measured in this way spuriously correlates with RNA-seq values, see Larsson et al 2010 DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1006821107, perhaps it would be worse assessing differential translation with anota2seq (Oertlin et al 2019 doi: 10.1093/nar/gkz223.)? Anota2seq avoids calculating the ratios and enables comprehensive analysis of differential translation including detection of buffered translation which might be the case here while avoiding artefacts that may arise from varying RNA levels.  

      We now specified in more detail in the Methods section how we analyzed the data. Indeed, the DeSeq2 was used on translation efficiency values, which we calculated as the ratio of ribosome footprints to RNA-seq. 

      As suggested, we have now also performed the analysis using anota2seq (Suppl. Fig. 3C) and this analysis identified zero transcripts that are translationally regulated, in agreement with our analysis.

      (6) Section "eIF2a-inactivating stresses do not redirect tRNA delivery function to eIF2A." 

      The description of ISR mechanism is a bit inaccurate. Strictly speaking eIF2alpha phosphorylation does not inactivate it eIF2alpha. It results in formation of a very stable eIF2*GDP*eIF2B complex, thus severely depleting eIF2B which serves as a GEF for eIF2. This in turn reduces the ternary complex (eIF2*GTP*tRNAi) concentration since there is no free eIF2B to exchange GDP for GTP. Without getting into much detail, we think it would be more accurate to say that eIF2alpha phosphorylation leads to ternary complex depletion instead of saying that stress inactivates eIF2alpha. 

      We agree with the reviewer - we were trying to use simple, compact wording. We have now reworded the section title to "No detectable role for eIF2A in translation when eIF2 is inhibited" and rephrased the subsequent text to be correct.

      Also the subtitle uses eIF2a with small a that stands for alpha which potentially could lead to substantial confusion since in this case the difference between eIF2alpha and eIF2A is only in capitalisation of the last letter, many text-mining engines such as modern LLMs may not be able to pick the differences. Perhaps it would be better to refer to eIF2alpha by the HGNC approved name of its gene - eIF2S1 to avoid further confusions. For clarity it may be stated at the beginning that eIF2S1 is commonly known as eIF2alpha. 

      We thank the reviewer for this point. We have removed all instances of eIF2a (with lowercase a) from the manuscript to avoid this source of confusion. In the first instance of eIF2a we also added the official HGNC gene name. However, we prefer to use eIF2a instead of eIF2S1 because people outside the translation field tend to know the subunit as eIF2a, and we think it is important that also people outside the translation field read this manuscript, since some of the questionable papers on eIF2A come from labs working at the interface between translation and other fields.

      Minor 

      Introduction 

      (7) "uses the CAT anticodon" change CAT to CAU 

      We corrected CAT to CAU

      (8) "In the canonical initiation pathway", change "canonical" to "most common", canonical is somewhat a judgemental statement that originates in theology. Same applies to numerous occurrences of "canonical AUG", simply using "AUG" would be simpler and more accurate as you will avoid giving impression that there are "non-canonical AUGs".  

      Done.

      (9) "eIF2A was initially considered to be a functional analogue of prokaryotic IF2 (Merrick and Anderson, 1975), however later this role was reassigned to the above-mentioned heterotrimeric factor eIF2 (a,b,g) (Levin et al., 1973)." - there is a chronological contradiction within this sentence, the initial consideration is attributed to 1975 while its later reassignment to 1973. 

      We are grateful to the reviewer for spotting this mistake. There was a citation problem; we fixed it and now cite the correct paper for the initial discovery of eIF2A to PMID 5472357 (Shafritz et al 1970).

      (10) "On the other hand, studies on the role of eIF2A on viral IRES translation have arrived at conflicting results." Remove "On the other hand" since conflicting results have been mentioned above. In fact the entire sentence is somewhat redundant given prior "For example, eIF2A has been studied in the context of internal ribosome entry sites (IRES), where it was found to act both as a suppressor and an activator of IRESmediated initiation."  

      We have rewritten the paragraph to make it more coherent.

      (11) Fig. 1. C-D. is using CHX abbreviation for cycloheximide, this need to be mentioned on the legend or elsewhere in the text. Otherwise CHX may not be clear for a reader uninitiated in ribosome profiling. 

      We now mention in the figure legend that CHX stands for cycloheximide and indicate that it was used as a negative control to block translation. 

      (12) Page 7, section "Ribosome profiling reveals a few eIF2Adependent transcripts" 

      In this section you describe ribosome profiling experiments and identify few transcripts whose translation seems to be changing based on ribosome profiling data. Then you attempt to verify them using gene expression reporters and reasonably suggest that these are false positives. In essence this section argues that there are no eIF2A-dependent transcripts, therefore the title of this subsection is misleading, it makes sense to rename it so that it better reflects the content of this section. 

      We agree and have renamed the section to "Ribosome profiling identifies no eIF2Adependent transcripts"

      (13) Page 8, top. Rephrase "To do this, we performed ribosome profiling on control and eIF2AKO cells, which sequences the mRNA footprints protected by ribosomes."  

      Fixed.

      (14) Page 10, bottom. "Several studies have reported that eIF2A can delivery alternative initiator tRNAs to uORFs with nearcognate start codons". Change "delivery" to "deliver". 

      Thanks for spotting it. We corrected to “deliver”

      (15) Page 13 "This suggests that, as in non-stressed conditions, eIF2A has a minimal effect on global translation also when eIF2a activity is low." - rephrase to avoid impression that eIF2alpha activity is low in normal conditions, also please see comment #6 above. 

      We fixed this sentence to read: “This suggests that, as in non-stressed conditions, eIF2A has a minimal effect on global translation also when the integrated stress response is active.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      - The experimental data in Fig. S5E do not support the claim of increased eIF2 phosphorylation on TM treatment; although, comparing Fig. S5A with Fig. 1B supports a marked reduction in bulk translation and the reporter data in Fig. 4A show the expected induction of the uORF-containing reporters by TM. Because these are the conditions employed for ribosome profiling in stress conditions shown in Fig. 4B, it would be reassuring to document TM-induced translational efficiencies of ATF4 and the other known mRNAs resistant to eIF2 phosphorylation in the ribosome profiling data, including gene browser images of the replicate experiments. If the induction of TEs by TM for such mRNAs was not robust, it would be valuable to repeat the analysis using arsenite (SA) treatment, which produces a greater inhibition of bulk translation. 

      Unfortunately, the eIF2alpha antibody is not very good and also detects the nonphosphorylated protein, causing high background and poor apparent induction in response to tunicamycin. The fact that the ISR was activated is visible from the induction of ATF that was assessed by western blot in the Suppl. Fig. 5E. To ensure that our ribosome profiling libraries also recorded the activation of ISR we built single gene plots for ATF4 both in control and HeLa eIF2A-KO cell. As shown in  Author response image 3 A&B in both cell lines tunicamycin treatment led to the induction of ATF4. This can also be seen by the 4-fold induction in ATF4 translation efficiency in response to tunicamycin in both WT and eIF2A-KO cells ( Author response image 3C). Additionally, we checked that another marker induced by tunicamycin, HSPA5, is also translationally upregulated in both cell lines, as well as the downstream target of ATF4 – PPP1R15B. ( Author response image 3C). 

      Author response image 3.

      (A-B) Average read occupancy on the ATF4 (ENST00000674920) transcript in DMSO treated (n=3) or tunicamycin treated samples (n=2) derived from either control (panel A) or eIF2A-KO (panel B) HeLa cells are shown. Read counts were normalized to sequencing depth and averaged between either 3 (DMSO-treated) or 2 (tunicamycin-treated) replicates. Graphs were then smoothened with a sliding window of 3 nt. (C) Scatter plot of log2(fold change) of Translation Efficiency TM/DMSO for control cells on the xaxis versus eIF2AKO cells on the y-axis. The induction of ATF4 as well as the downstream target PPP1R15B are shown. The upregulation of HSP5A translation, the other hallmark of ER-stress induced by tunicamycin treatment is shown.

      - It should be pointed out in the text that in both published studies being cited here of cells lacking eIF2A, that by Gaikwad et al. on a yeast eIF2A deletion mutant, and that by Ichihara et al. on human HEK293 CRISPR KO cells, the analyses included stress conditions in which eIF2 phosphorylation is induced (amino acid starvation or SA treatment, respectively), as was conducted here.  

      Good point - we added this information into the introduction: 

      "Furthermore, loss of eIF2A in several systems did not recapitulate these effects on non-AUG initiation in either non-stressed or stress conditions (caused either by amino acid depletion or sodium arsenate treatment) (Gaikwad et al., 2024; Ichihara et al., 2021)."

      - The Ichihara et al. (2021) study just mentioned reached some of the same conclusions for HEK cells obtained here by conducting ribosome profiling in untreated and SA-treated cells, finding only 1 mRNA (untreated) or four mRNAs (SA-treated cells) that showed significantly reduced TEs in the eIF2A knockout vs. parental cells. It seems appropriate for the authors to expand their treatment of this prior work by summarizing its findings in some detail and also noting how their study goes beyond this previous one. 

      We have added a paragraph to the discussion pointing out that our data agree fully with Ichihara et al. (2021), and that Ichihara et al. (2021) also found only very few mRNAs that change in TE upon loss of eIF2A in either non-stressed or stressed conditions.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors performed molecular dynamics (MD) simulations to investigate the molecular basis of the association of alpha-synuclein chains under molecular crowding and salt conditions. Aggregation of alpha-synuclein is linked to the pathogenesis of Parkinson's disease, and the liquid-liquid phase separation (LLPS) is considered to play an important role in the nucleation step of the alpha-synuclein aggregation. This paper re-tuned the Martini3 coarse-grained force field parameters, which allows long-timescale MD simulations of intrinsically disordered proteins with explicit solvent under diverse environmental perturbation. Their MD simulations showed that alpha-synuclein does not have a high LLPS-forming propensity, but the molecular crowding and salt addition tend to enhance the tendency of droplet formation and therefore modulate the alpha-synuclein aggregation. The MD simulation results also revealed important intra- and inter-molecule conformational features of the alpha-synuclein chains in the formed droplets and the key interactions responsible for the stability of the droplets. These MD simulation data add biophysical insights into the molecular mechanism underlying the association of alpha-synuclein chains, which is important for understanding the pathogenesis of Parkinson's disease.

      Strengths:

      (1) The re-parameterized Martini 3 coarse-grained force field enables the large-scale MD simulations of the intrinsically disordered proteins with explicit solvent, which will be useful for a more realistic description of the molecular basis of LLPS.

      (2) This paper showed that molecular crowding and salt contribute to the modulation of the LLPS through different means. The molecular crowding minimally affects surface tension, but adding salt increases surface tension. It is also interesting to show that the aggregation pathway involves the disruption of the intra-chain interactions arising from C-terminal regions, which potentially facilitates the formation of inter-chain interactions.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the strengths of our study.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Although the authors emphasized the advantage of the Martini3 force field for its explicit description of solvent, the whole paper did not discuss the water's role in the aggregation and LLPS.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We agree that we have not explored or discussed the role of water in aS aggregation or LLPS. We would like to convey that we would like to explore that in detail in a separate study altogether. However we have updated the “Discussion” section with the following lines to convey to the readers the importance water plays in aggregation and LLPS of aS.

      Page 24: “The significance of the solvent in alpha-synuclein (αS) aggregation remains underexplored. Recent studies [26, 55] underscore the pivotal role of water as a solvent in LLPS. It suggests that comprehending the solvent’s role, particularly water, is essential for attaining a deeper grasp of the thermodynamic and physical aspects of αS LLPS and aggregation. By delving into the solvent’s contribution, researchers can uncover additional factors influencing αS aggregation. Such insights hold the potential to advance our comprehension of protein aggregation phenomena, crucial for devising strategies to address diseases linked to protein misfolding and aggregation, notably Parkinson’s disease. Future investigations focusing on elucidating the interplay between αS, solvent (especially water), and other environmental elements could yield valuable insights into the mechanisms underlying LLPS and aggregation. Ultimately, this could aid in the development of therapeutic interventions or preventive measures for Parkinson’s and related diseases.”

      (2) This paper discussed the effects of crowders and salt on the surface tension of the droplets.

      The calculation of the surface tension relies on the droplet shape. However, for the formed clusters in the MD simulations, the typical size is <10, which may be too small to rigorously define the droplet shape. As shown in previous work cited by this paper [Benayad et al., J. Chem. Theory Comput. 2021, 17, 525−537], the calculated surface tension becomes stable when the chain number is larger than 100.

      We appreciate the insightful feedback from the reviewer. However, we would like to emphasize that the αS droplets exhibit a highly liquid-like behavior, characterized by frequent exchanges of chains between the dense and dilute phases, alongside a slow aggregation process. In the study by Benayad et al. (2020, JCTC) [ref. 30], FUS-LCD was the protein of choice at concentrations in the (mM) range. FUS-LCD is known to undergo very rapid LLPS at concentrations lower than 100 (μM) where for αS the critical concentration for LLPS is 500 (μM) and undergoes slower aggregation than FUS. Moreover, the diffusion constant of αS inside newly formed droplets (no liquid to solid phase transition has occurred) has been estimated to be 0.23-0.58 μm2/s (Ray et al, 2020, Nat. Comm.). The value of diffusion constant for FUS-LCD inside LLPS droplets has been estimated to be 0.17 μm2/s (Murthy et al. 2023, Nat. Struct. and Mol. Biol.). These prove that αS forms droplets that are less viscous than that formed by FUS-LCD. This dynamic nature impedes the formation of large droplets in the simulations, making it challenging to rigorously calculate surface tension from interfacial width, which, in turn, necessitates the computation of g(r) between water and the droplet.

      Furthermore, it's essential to note that our primary aim in calculating surface tension was not to determine its absolute value. Rather, we aimed to compare surface tensions obtained for the three distinct environments explored in this study. Hence, our primary objective is to compare the distributions of surface tensions rather than focusing solely on the mean values obtained. The distributions shown in Figure 4a clearly show a trend which we have stated in the article.

      (3) In this work, the Martini 3 force field was modified by rescaling the LJ parameters \epsilon and \sigma with a common factor \lambda. It has not been very clearly described in the manuscript why these two different parameters can be rescaled by a common factor and why it is necessary to separately tune these two parameters, instead of just tuning the coefficient \epsilon as did in a previous work [Larsen et al., PLoS Comput Biol 16: e1007870].

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We think that the distance of the first hydration layer also should have an impact on aggregation/LLPS. Here we are scaling both the epsilon and sigma. A higher epsilon of water-protein interactions mean higher the energy required for removal of water molecules (dehydration) when a chain goes from the dilute to the dense phase. A higher sigma on the other hand means that the hydration shell will also be at a larger distance making dehydration easier. Moreover, tuning both (either by same or different parameter) required a change of the overall protein-water interaction by only 1%, thereby requiring only considerably minimal change in forcefield parameters (compared to the case where only epsilon is being tuned which required 6-10% change in epsilon from its original values.) . Thus we think one of the ways of tuning water-protein interactions which requires minimal retuning of Martini 3 is by optimizing both epsilon and sigma. However whether a single scaling parameter is good enough requires further exploration and is outside the scope of the current study. More importantly it would introduce another free parameter into the system and the lesser the number of free parameters, the better. For this study, a single parameter sufficed as depicted in Figure 9. To inform the readers of why we chose to scale both sigma and epsilon, we have added the following in the main text:

      Page 25-26: “Increasing the ϵ value of water-protein interactions results in a higher energy demand for removing water molecules (dehydration) as a chain transitions from the dilute to the dense phase. Conversely, a higher σ value implies that the hydration shell will be at a greater distance, facilitating dehydration if a chain moves into the dilute phase. Therefore, adjusting water-protein interactions based on the protein’s single-chain behavior may not significantly influence the protein’s phase behavior. Furthermore, fine-tuning both ϵ and σ parameters only requires a minimal change in the overall protein-water interaction (1%). As a result, this adjustment minimally alters the force field parameters.”

      (4) Both the sizes and volume fractions of the crowders can affect the protein association. It will be interesting to perform MD simulations by adding crowders with various sizes and volume fractions. In addition, in this work, the crowders were modelled by fullerenes, which contribute to protein aggregation mainly by entropic means as discussed in the manuscript. It is not very clear how the crowder effect is sensitive to the chemical nature of the crowders (e.g., inert crowders with excluded volume effect or crowders with non-specific attractive interactions with proteins, etc) and therefore the force field parameters.

      We thank the reviewer for a potential future direction. In this investigation our main focus was to simulate the inertness features of crowders only, to ensure that only entropic effect of the crowders are explored. Although this study focuses on the factors that enable aS to form an aggregates/LLPS under different environmental conditions, it would be interesting to explore in a systematic way the mechanism of action of crowders of varying shapes, sizes and interactions. Therefore we added the following lines in the “Discussion” section to let the readers know that this is also a future prospect of investigation.

      Page 22: “Under physiological conditions, crowding effects emerge prominently. While crowders are commonly perceived to be inert, as has been considered in this investigation, the morphology, dimensions, and chemical interactions of crowding agents with αS in both dilute and dense phases may potentially exert considerable influence on its LLPS. Hence, a comprehensive understanding through systematic exploration is another avenue that warrants extensive investigation.”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Figure S1. The title of the figure and the description in the figure caption are inconsistent?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment and we have updated the article with the correct caption.

      (2) Page 14, line 3, the authors may want to provide more descriptions of the "ms1", "ms2", and "ms3" for better understanding.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for pointing this out. We have added a line describing in brief what “ms1”, “ms2” and “ms3” represent. It reads “Subsequent to the investigation, we utilize three representative conformations, each corresponding to one of the macrostates. We designate these macrostates as 1 (ms1), 2 (ms2), and 3 (ms3) (Figure S7)” (Page 28)

      (3) Page 20, the authors may want to briefly explain how the normalized Shannon entropy was calculated.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. This is plain Shannon Entropy and the word “normalized” should not have been there. To avoid confusion we have provided the equation we have used to calculate the Shannon entropy (Eq 8) (Page 21).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In the manuscript "Modulation of α-Synuclein Aggregation Amid Diverse Environmental Perturbation", Wasim et al describe coarse-grained molecular dynamics (cgMD) simulations of α-Synuclein (αS) at several concentrations and in the presence of molecular crowding agents or high salt. They begin by bench-marking their cgMD against all-atom simulations by Shaw. They then carry 2.4-4.3 µs cgMD simulations under the above-noted conditions and analyze the data in terms of protein structure, interaction network analysis, and extrapolated fluid mechanics properties. This is an interesting study because a molecular scale understanding of protein droplets is currently lacking, but I have a number of concerns about how it is currently executed and presented.

      We thank the reviewer for finding our study interesting.

      (1) It is not clear whether the simulations have reached a steady state. If they have not, it invalidates many of their analysis methods and conclusions.

      We have used the last 1 μs (1.5-2.5 1 μs) from each simulation for further analysis in this study. To understand whether the simulations have reached steady state or not, we plot the time profile of the concentration of the protein in the dilute phase for all three cases.

      Author response image 1.

      Except for the scenario of only αS (Figures a and b), the rest show very steady concentrations across various sections of the trajectory (Figures c-f). The larger sudden fluctuations observed inFigures a and b are due to the fact that only αS undergo very slow spontaneous aggregation and owing to the fact that the dense phase itself is very fluxional, addition/removal of a few chains to/from the dense to dilute phase register themselves as large fluctuations in the protein concentration in the dilute phase. For the other two scenarios (Figures c-f) aggregation has been accelerated due to the presence of crowders/salt. This causes larger aggregates to be formed. Therefore addition/removal of one or two chains does not significantly affect the concentration and we do not see such sudden large jumps. In summary, the large jumps seen in Figures a and b are due to slow, fluxional aggregation of pure αS and finite size effects. However as these still are only fluctuations, we posit that the systems have reached steady states. This claim is further supported by the following figure where the time profile of a few useful system wide macroscopic properties show no change between 1.5-2.5 µs.

      We also have added a brief discussion in the Methods section (Page 29-30) with these figures in the Supplementary Information.

      Author response image 2.

      “In this study, we utilized the final 1 µs from each simulation for further analysis. To ascertain whether the simulations have achieved a steady state, we plotted the time profile of protein concentration in the dilute phase for all three cases. Except for minor intermittent fluctuation involving only αS in neat water (Figures S8a and S8b), the remaining cases exhibit notably stable concentrations throughout various segments of the trajectory (Figures S8 c-f). The relatively higher fluctuations observed in Figures S8a and b stem from the slow, spontaneous aggregation of αS alone, compounded by the inherently ambiguous nature of the dense phase.

      Consequently, the addition or removal of a few chains from the dense to the dilute phase results in significant fluctuations in protein concentration within the dilute phase. Conversely, in the other two scenarios (Figures S8c-f), aggregation is expedited by the presence of crowders/salt, leading to the formation of larger aggregates. Consequently, the addition or removal of one or two chains has negligible impact on concentration, thereby mitigating sudden large jumps. In summary, the conspicuous jumps depicted in Figures S8a and b arise from the gradual, fluctuating aggregation of pure αS and finite size effects. However, since these remain within the realm of fluctuations, we assert that the systems have indeed reached steady states. This assertion is bolstered by the subsequent figure, where the time profile of several pertinent system-wide macroscopic properties reveals no discernible change between 1.5-2.5 µs (Figures S9).”

      (2) The benchmarking used to validate their cgMD methods is very minimal and fails to utilize a large amount of available all-atom simulation and experimental data.

      We disagree with the reviewer on this point. We have cited multiple previous studies [26, 27] that have chosen Rg as a metric of choice for benchmarking coarse-grained model and have used a reference (experimental or otherwise) to tune Martini force fields. Majority of the notable literature where Rg was used as a benchmark during generation of new coarse-grained force fields are works by Dignon et al. (PLoS Comp. Biol.) [ref. 25], Regy et al (Protein Science. 2021) [ref. 26], Joseph et al.(Nature Computational Science. 2021) [ref. 27] and Tesei et al (Open Research Europe, 2022) [ref. 28]. From a polymer physics perspective, tuning water-protein interactions is simply changing the solvent characteristics for the biopolymer and Rg has been generally considered a suitable metric in the case of coarse-grained model. Moreover we try to match the distribution of the Rg rather than only the mean value. This suggests that at a single molecule level, the cgMD simulations at the optimum water of water-protein interactions would allow the protein to sample the conformations present in the reference ensemble. We use the extensively sampled 70 μs all-atom data from DE Shaw Research to obtain the reference Rg distribution. Also we perform a cross validation by comparing the fraction of bound states in all-atom and cgMD dimer simulations which also seem to corroborate well with each other at optimum water-protein interactions. To let the readers understand the rationale behind choosing Rg we have added a section in the Methods section (Page 25) that explains why Rg is plausibly a good metric for tuning water-protein interactions in Martini 3, at least when dealing with IDPs.

      Our optimized model is further supported by the FRET experiments by Ray et al. [6]. They found that interchain NAC-NAC interactions drive LLPS. Residue level contact maps obtained from our simulations also show decreased intrachain NAC-NAC interactions with an increased interchain NAC-NAC interactions inside the droplet. This corroborates well with the experimental observations and furthermore validates the metrics we have used for optimization of the water-protein interactions. However the comparison with the FRET data by Ray et al. was not present earlier and we have added the following lines in the updated draft.

      Page17: “Thus we observed that increased inter-chain NAC-NAC regions facilitate the formation of αS droplets which also have previously been seen from FRET experiments on αS LLPS

      droplets[6].”

      (3) They also miss opportunities to compare their simulations to experimental data on aSyn protein droplets.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have tried to compare the results from our simulations to existing experimental FRET data on αS. Please see the previous response where we have described our comparison with FRET observations.

      (4) Aspects such as network analysis are not contextualized by comparison to other protein condensed phases.

      For a proper comparison between other protein condensed phases, we would require the position phase space of such condensates which is not readily available. Therefore we tried to explain it in a simpler manner to paint a picture of how αS forms an interconnecting network inside the droplet phase.

      (5) Data are not made available, which is an emerging standard in the field.

      We thank the reviewer for mentioning this. We have provided the trajectories between 1.5-2.5 μs, which we used for the analysis presented in the article, via a zenodo repository along with other relevant files related to the simulations (https://zenodo.org/records/10926368).

      Firstly, it is not clear that these systems are equilibrated or at a steady state (since protein droplets are not really equilibrium systems). The authors do not present any data showing time courses that indicate the system to be reaching a steady state. This is problematic for several of their data analysis procedures, but particularly in determining free energy of transfer between the condensed and dilute phases based on partitioning.

      We have addressed this concern as stated previously in the response. We have updated the article accordingly.

      Secondly, the benchmarking that they perform against the 73 µs all-atom simulation of aSyn monomer by Shaw and coworkers provides only very crude validation of their cgMD models based on reproducing Rg for the monomer. The authors should make more extensive comparisons to the specific conformations observed in the DE Shaw work. Shaw makes the entire trajectory publicly available. There are also a wealth of experimental data that could be used for validation with more molecular detail. See for example, NMR and FRET data used to benchmark Monte Carlo simulations of aSyn monomer (as well as extensive comparisons to the Shaw MD trajectory) in Ferrie at al: A Unified De Novo Approach for Predicting the Structures of Ordered and Disordered Proteins, J. Phys. Chem. B 124 5538-5548 (2020)

      DOI:10.1021/acs.jpcb.0c02924

      I note that NMR measurements of aSyn in liquid droplets are available from Vendruscolo: Observation of an α-synuclein liquid droplet state and its maturation into Lewy body-like assemblies, Journal of Molecular Cell Biology, Volume 13, Issue 4, April 2021, Pages 282-294, https://doi.org/10.1093/jmcb/mjaa075.

      In addition, there are FRET studies by Maji: Spectrally Resolved FRET Microscopy of α-Synuclein Phase-Separated Liquid Droplets, Methods Mol Biol 2023:2551:425-447. doi: 10.1007/978-1-0716-2597-2_27.

      So the authors are missing opportunities to better validate the simulations and place their structural understanding in greater context. This is just based on my own quick search, so I am sure that additional and possibly better experimental comparisons can be found.

      We have performed a comparison with existing FRET measurements by Ray et al. (2020) as discussed in a previous response and also updated the same in the article. The doi (10.1007/978-1-0716-2597-2_27) provided by the reviewer is however for a book on Methods to characterize protein aggregates and does not contain any information regarding the observations from FRET experiments. The other doi (https://doi.org/10.1093/jmcb/mjaa075) for the article from Vendrusculo group does not contain information directly relevant to this study. Moreover NMR measurements cannot be predicted from cgMD since full atomic resolution is lost upon coarse-graining of the protein . A past literature survey by the authors found very little scientific literature on molecular level characterization of αS LLPS droplets.

      Thirdly, the small word network analysis is interesting, but hard to contextualize. For instance, the 8 Å cutoff used seems arbitrary. How does changing the cutoff affect the value of S determined? Also, how does the value of S compare to other condensed phases like crystal packing or amyloid forms of aSyn?

      The 8 Å cutoff is actually arbitrary since a distance based clustering always requires a cutoff which is empirically decided. However 8 Å is quite large compared to other cutoffs used for distance based clustering. For example in ref 26, 5 Å was used as a cutoff for calculation of protein clusters. Larger cutoffs will lead to sparser network structures. However we used the same cutoff for all distance based clustering which makes the networks obtained comparable. We wanted to perform a comparison among the networks formed by αS under different environmental conditions.

      Fourthly, I see no statement on data availability. The emerging standard in the computational field is to make all data publicly available through Github or some similar mechanism.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out and we have provided the raw data between 1.5-2.5 μs for each scenario along with other relevant files via a zenodo repository (https://zenodo.org/records/10926368).

      Finally, on page 16, they discuss the interactions of aSyn(95-110), but the sequence that they give is too long (seeming to contain repeated characters, but also not accurate). aSyn(95-110) = VKKDQLGKNEEGAPQE. Presumably this is just a typo, but potentially raises concerns about the simulations (since without available data, one cannot check that the sequence is accurate) and data analysis elsewhere.

      This indeed is a typographical error. We have updated the article with the correct sequence. The validity of the simulations can be verified from the data we have shared via the zenodo repository (https://zenodo.org/records/10926368).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      Mehrdad Kashefi et al. investigated the availability of planning future reaches while simultaneously controlling the execution of the current reach. Through a series of experiments employing a novel sequential arm reaching paradigm they developed, the authors made several findings: 1) participants demonstrate the capability to plan future reaches in advance, thereby accelerating the execution of the reaching sequence, 2) planning processes for future movements are not independent one another, however, it's not a single chunk neither, 3) Interaction among these planning processes optimizes the current movement for the movement that comes after for it.

      The question of this paper is very interesting, and the conclusions of this paper are well supported by data. However, certain aspects require further clarification and expansion.

      We thank reviewer one for their evaluation of the work.

      (1) The question of this study is whether future reach plans are available during an ongoing reach. In the abstract, the authors summarized that "participants plan at least two future reaches simultaneously with an ongoing reach and that the planning processes of the two future reaches are not independent of one another" and showed the evidence in the next sentences. However the evidence is about the relationship about ongoing reach and future plans but not about in between future plans (Line 52-55). But the last sentence (Line 55-58) mentioned about interactions between future plans only. There are some discrepancies between sentences. Could you make the abstract clear by mentioning interference between 1) ongoing movement and future plans and 2) in between future plans?

      We thank Reviewer for their comment. We have separated the longer sentence in the original abstract into two shorter ones. This should clarify that the two pieces of evidence pertain to the interaction of planning processes.

      (2) I understood the ongoing reach and future reaches are not independent from the results of first experiment (Figure 2). A target for the current reach is shown at Horizon 1, on the other hand, in Horizon 2, a current and a future target are shown on the screen. Inter-reach-interval was significantly reduced from H1 to H2 (Figure 2). The authors insist that "these results suggest that participants can plan two targets (I guess +1 and +2) ahead of the current reach (I guess +0)". But I think these results suggest that participants can plan a target (+1) ahead of the current reach (+0) because participants could see the current (+0) and a future target (+1) in H2. Could the authors please clarify this point?

      We thank Reviewer for raising this point. Our conclusion that “participants can plan two targets ahead of the current reach” is supported by the reduction in Inter-Response Interval (IRI) observed when comparing H2 to H3 in the 75 ms Dwell time condition. Specifically, on average, participants were 16 ms faster when they could see two future targets on the screen (H3) than when they could see only one (H2). To clarify this in the paper, we have revised the wording in line 124 to explicitly state that the conclusion pertains to the 75 ms Dwell time condition. Additionally, we emphasize that the strongest evidence for planning two future targets comes from the experiment shown in Figure 3.

      (3) Movement correction for jump of the +1 target takes longer time in H3 compared to H2 (Figure 4). Does this perturbation have any effect on reaching for +2 target? If the +1 jump doesn't affect reaching for +2 target, combined with the result that jump of the +2 target didn't affect the movement time of +1 target (Figure 3C), perturbation (target jump) only affects the movement directly perturbed. Is this implementation correct? If so, does these results support to decline future reaches are planned as motor chunk? I would like to know the author's thoughts about this.

      In the experiment presented in Figure 4, once we jumped the +1 target, the reach to that target was changed and participants replaned a corrective movement to the new location of the +1 target. This usually was followed by a longer-than-usual pause at the new location of +1 target for resuming the sequence and finishing the trial. Consequently, in these jump trials, it was impossible to compare the +2 reach to no-jump trials, as the normal sequence of movement was disrupted, and the reach to the +2 target originated from a different starting location. Nevertheless, we addressed the possibility that the two future reaches were planned as a chunk by the analysis shown in figure 5: There we showed that a displacement of the +2 target did not influence the reach to the +1 target, indicating that the movement plans could be updated independently.

      (4) Any discussion about Saccade position (Figure 7)?

      We thank reviewer 1 for this important comment. The following discussion section is added for the gaze position results.

      In our sequence task, participants switched their gaze location only once per reach, suggesting that information about the location of the next target is perceived parafoveally (Figure 7A). This observation aligns with previous studies (Clavagnier et al., 2007; González-Alvarez et al., 2007; Sivak and MacKenzie, 1990) that found participants keep their visual attention on the current sequence item and can perceive the location of spatial targets even when foveal vision is occluded. However, when comparing gaze locations for conditions Horizon >1, we observed that participants systematically biased their gaze location based on the sequence context. The gaze position shifted toward the next target, potentially allowing for more accurate location estimation (Figures 7C-D). Notably, changes in gaze location were observed even in Horizon 2, despite no changes in the curvature of hand movements in this horizon (Figure 6B). This suggests that information about the next target may first be available in the circuitry that controls eye movements and later in the cortical areas that control voluntary upper limb movements. Further control studies are required to investigate this hypothesis.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary:

      In this work, Kashefi et al. investigate the planning of sequential reaching movements and how the additional information about future reaches affects planning and execution. This study, carried out with human subjects, extends a body of research in sequential movements to ask important questions: How many future reaches can you plan in advance? And how do those future plans interact with each other?

      The authors designed several experiments to address these questions, finding that information about future targets makes reaches more efficient in both timing and path curvature. Further, with some clever target jump manipulations, the authors show that plans for a distant future reach can influence plans for a near future reach, suggesting that the planning for multiple future reaches is not independent. Lastly, the authors show that information about future targets is acquired parafoveally--that is, subjects tend to fixate mainly on the target they are about to reach to, acquiring future target information by paying attention to targets outside the fixation point.

      The study opens up exciting questions about how this kind of multi-target planning is implemented in the brain. As the authors note in the manuscript, previous work in monkeys showed that preparatory neural activity for a future reaching movement can occur simultaneously with a current reaching movement, but that study was limited to the monkey only knowing about two future targets. It would be quite interesting to see how neural activity partitions preparatory activity for a third future target, given that this study shows that the third target's planning may interact with the second target's planning.

      Strengths:

      A major strength of this study is that the experiments and analyses are designed to answer complementary questions, which together form a relatively complete picture of how subjects act on future target information. This complete description of a complex behavior will be a boon to future work in understanding the neural control of sequential, compound movements.

      We thank the reviewer for their thorough reading of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      I found no real glaring weaknesses with the paper, though I do wish that there had been some more discussion of what happens to planning with longer dwell times in target. In the later parts of the manuscript, the authors mention that the co-articulation result (where reaches are curved to make future target acquisition more efficient) was less evident for longer dwell times, likely because for longer dwell times, the subject needs to fully stop in target before moving to the next one. This result made me wonder if the future plan interaction effect (tested with the target jumps) would have been affected by dwell time. As far as I can tell, the target jump portion only dealt with the shorter dwell times, but if the authors had longer dwell time data for these experiments, I would appreciate seeing the results and interpretations.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. In our time (Figure 2) and curvature analysis (Figure 6), we collected data with five levels of the horizon and three levels of dwell time to explore the space of parameters and to see if there is any interaction between dwell time and the horizon of planning the future targets. Apriori, we expected that the full stop in each target imposed by the 400 ms dwell time would be long enough to remove any effect of future targets on how the current move is executed. In line with our initial hypothesis, the systematic curvature of reaches based on the future target was smaller in longer dwell times (Figure 6E). Nevertheless, we observed a significant curvature even in 400 ms dwell time. Based on this observation, we expect running the jump experiments (Figures 4 and 5) in longer dwell times will lead to the same pattern of results but with a smaller effect size since longer dwells break the interdependence of sequence elements (Kalidindi & Crevecoeur, 2023). In the end, for the jump experiments, we limited our experimental conditions to the fastest dwell time (75 ms dwell) since we were conceptually interested in situations where movements in the sequence are maximally dependent on each other.

      Beyond this , the authors also mentioned in the results and discussion the idea of "neural resources" being assigned to replan movements, but it's not clear to me what this might actually mean concretely. I wonder if the authors have a toy model in mind for what this kind of resource reassignment could mean. I realize it would likely be quite speculative, but I would greatly appreciate a description or some sort of intuition if possible.

      Our use of the term "neural resources" is inspired by classic psychology literature on how cognitive resources such as attention and working memory are divided between multiple sequence components. Early studies on working memory suggest that human participants can retain and manipulate a fixed number of abstract items in working memory (Miller, 1956). However, more recent literature postulates that a specific number of items does not limit working memory, rather, it is limited by a finite attentional resource that is softly allocated to task items.

      Here we borrowed the same notion of soft distribution of resources for the preparation of multiple sequence items. A large portion of our observation in this paper and also previous work on sequence production can be explained by a simple model that assumes one central planning resource that is “softly” divided between sequence elements when participants see future items of the sequence (Author Response Image 1). The first sequence element receives the majority of the resources and is planned the most. The rest of the sequence receives the remaining planning resources in an exponentially decaying manner for preparation of the movement during the execution of the ongoing movement. Once the ongoing movement is over, the resource is then transferred to the next sequence item and this process is repeated until the sequence is over. Assignment of planning resources to future items explains why participants are faster when seeing future items (Figure 2). But this comes with a cost – if the ongoing movement is perturbed, the replanning process is delayed since some of the resources are occupied by future planning (Figure 4). This naturally leads to the question of how this resource allocation is implemented in neural tissue. To address this, we are conducting the same sequence task with the horizon in non-human primates (NHPs), and the investigation of these neural implementation questions will be the focus of future studies.

      Author response image 1.

      Basic diagram showing a soft distribution of a limited planning resource. The diagram shows a Horizon 3 condition in which two future reaches (+1 and +2) are planned while executing a movement (+0). The majority of resources is assigned to the execution of the ongoing movement while the reset is distributed for planning future movements. Once the movement is over, the chain of preparation and execution moves forward.

      Recommendations for the author:

      Reviewer #1

      We thank reviewer one for these comments regarding the clarity and consistency of figures and terminology.

      (1) Figure 3. Are "+1 Move" in Fig. 3B and "+ 1 Movement" in Fig. 3C as same as "E + 1" in Fig. 3A? Also does "Dwell" in Fig. 3B mean same as "+1 Dwell" in Fig. 3C? Consistent terminology would help readers to understand the figure.

      “+1 Move” in Figure 3B is the same as +1 movement in Figure 3C. “Dwell” in Figure 3B is the same as +1 Dwell in Figure 3C. We changed the figure for more consistency.

      (2) Figure 3. A type in the second last line in the legend, "pre-jump target for no-jump and jump and condition". The second "and" isn't necessary.

      The typo is corrected. Thank you.

      (3) Figure 4C. Is "Movement time" equivalent with "E + 1"?

      “Movement time” is equivalent to E+1 only in no-jump conditions. When the jump occurs,

      Movement time contains all the

      (4) Figure 6B. Is the gray circle in between the graph and target positions there by mistake?

      We fixed this typo. Thank you.

      (5) Figure 6E. It's hard to distinguish H2-H5 from the color differences.

      We changed the H5 to full white with a black stroke to improve the contrast. Thank you.

      (6) Figure 7A. Blue dots are almost invisible.

      We added a black stroke to blue circles for more visibility. Thank you.

      Reviewer #2

      I found this manuscript to be engaging and well written--many of the questions I had while reading were answered promptly in the next section. As such, my comments are mostly minor and primarily geared towards improving clarity in the manuscript.

      (1) One major recurring confusion I had while reading the manuscript was how to think about H1, H2, and H3. It was clearly explained in the text, and the explanations of the results were generally clear once I read through it all, but I found it strangely confusing at times when trying to interpret the figures for myself (e.g., in H2, 2 targets are on screen, but the second target can only be planned during the reach toward the first target). This confusion may just be me reading the manuscript over two days, but I wonder if it could be made clearer with some semantic iconography associated with each horizon added to the later figures alongside the H labels. As one option, perhaps the planning timeline part of Fig 1D could be simplified and shrunk down to make an icon for each horizon that clearly shows when planning overlaps for each horizon.

      (Please see the response to point #2 below)

      (2) Regarding Fig 1D: I like this figure, but it's unclear to me how the exact preparation and execution times are determined. Is this more of a general schematic of overlaps, or is there specific information about timing in here?

      We thank reviewer 2 for their important feedback. The role of Figure 1D was to summarize the timing of the experiments for different horizons. That is, to clarify the relative timing of the targets appearing on the screen (shown with a small circle above the horizontal line) and targets being captured by participants (the ticks and their associated number on the line). Execution is shown as the time interval that the hand is moving between the targets and planning is the potential planning time for participants from the target appearing on the screen until initiation of the reach to that target. We added the relevant parts of Figure 1D to the subplots for each subsequent experiment, to summarize the timing of other experiments and their analyses. For the experiments with target jump, a small vertical arrow shows the time of the target jump relative to other events.

      However, this figure will be less useful, if the connection between the timing dots and ticks is not communicated. We agree that in the original manuscript, this important figure was only briefly explained in the caption of Figure 1. We expanded the explanation in the caption of Figure 1 and referenced the dots and ticks in the main text.

      (3) Fig 6B - for some reason I got confused here: I thought the central target in this figure was the start target, and it took me embarrassingly long to figure out that the green target was the start target. This is likely because I'm used to seeing center-out behavioral figures. Incidentally, I wasn't confused by 7c (in fact, seeing 7c is what made me understand 6b), so maybe the solution is to clearly mark a directionality to the reach trajectories, or to point an arrow at the green target like in previous figures. Also, the bottom left gray target in the figure blends into the graph on the left--I didn't notice it until rereading. Because there's white space between that target and the green one, it might be good to introduce some white space to separate the graph from the targets more. The target arrangement makes more sense in panel C, but by the time I got there, I had already been a bit confused.

      Thanks for raising this point. As shown in Figure 6C, we used the reach to the +1 target for the curvature analysis. The confusion about Figure 6B is probably due to continuing the reach trajectories after the +1 target. That also explains why Figure 7C seemed more straightforward. To solve this issue we modified Figure 6B such that the reaches are shown with full opacity right until the +1 target and then shown with more transparency. We believe this change focuses the reader's attention to the reach initiated from the +0 target to the +1 target.

      As for the gray target in Figure 6B, we originally had the gray target as it is a potential start location for the reach to the +0 target, and for having similar visuals between the plots. The gray target is now removed from Figure 6B.

      (4) Line 253 - I'm not sure I understand the advantage over simple averaging that the authors mention here--would be nice to get a bit more intuition.

      Thanks for raising this point. We used a two-factor model in our analysis, with each factor representing the angle of the last and next target, respectively. Both factors had five levels: -120, -60, 0, 60, and 120 degrees relative to the +1 reach. In a balanced two-factor design, where each combination of factor levels has an equal number of trials, using a linear model and simple averaging would yield equivalent results. However, when the number of trials for the combinations of the two factors is unbalanced, simple averaging can lead to misleading differences in the levels of the second factor. Additionally, the linear model allows us to investigate potential interactions between the two factors, which is not possible with simple averaging.

      (5) Fig 7a - I would have liked to see the traces labeled in figure (i.e. hand trajectory vs. eye trajectory)

      Hand and eye trajectories are now labeled in the figure.

      (6) Fig 7c - very minor, but the hexagon of targets is rotated 30 degrees from all previous hexagons shown (also, this hex grid target arrangement can't lead to the trajectory shown in 7a, so it can't be that this was a different experimental grid). I'm guessing this was a simple oversight.

      We used the same grid in the eye-tracking experiment. The targets are to visually match the previous plots. Thank you for raising this point.

      Reference

      Clavagnier, S., Prado, J., Kennedy, H., & Perenin, M.-T. (2007). How humans reach: distinct cortical systems for central and peripheral vision. The Neuroscientist: A Review Journal Bringing Neurobiology, Neurology and Psychiatry, 13(1), 22–27.

      González-Alvarez, C., Subramanian, A., & Pardhan, S. (2007). Reaching and grasping with restricted peripheral vision. Ophthalmic & Physiological Optics: The Journal of the British College of Ophthalmic Opticians , 27(3), 265–274.

      Kalidindi, H. T., & Crevecoeur, F. (2023). Task dependent coarticulation of movement sequences (p.2023.12.15.571847). https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.12.15.571847

      Miller, G. A. (1956). The magical number seven plus or minus two: some limits on our capacity for processing information. Psychological Review, 63(2), 81–97.

      Sivak, B., & MacKenzie, C. L. (1990). Integration of visual information and motor output in reaching and grasping: the contributions of peripheral and central vision. Neuropsychologia, 28(10), 1095–1116.

    1. Author response:

      We were delighted by the reviewers' general comments. We thank the reviewers for their thoughtful reviews, constructive criticism, and analysis suggestions. We have carefully addressed each of their points during the revision of the manuscript.

      Unfortunately, after the paper was submitted to eLife, the first author, who ran all the analyses, left academia. We now realized that we currently do not have sufficient resources to perform all additional analyses as requested by the reviewers.

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study uses MEG to test for a neural signature of the trial history effect known as 'serial dependence.' This is a behavioral phenomenon whereby stimuli are judged to be more similar than they really are, in feature space, to stimuli that were relevant in the recent past (i.e., the preceding trials). This attractive bias is prevalent across stimulus classes and modalities, but a neural source has been elusive. This topic has generated great interest in recent years, and I believe this study makes a unique contribution to the field. The paper is overall clear and compelling, and makes effective use of data visualizations to illustrate the findings. Below, I list several points where I believe further detail would be important to interpreting the results. I also make suggestions for additional analyses that I believe would enrich understanding but are inessential to the main conclusions.

      (1) In the introduction, I think the study motivation could be strengthened, to clarify the importance of identifying a neural signature here. It is clear that previous studies have focused mainly on behavior, and that the handful of neuroscience investigations have found only indirect signatures. But what would the type of signature being sought here tell us? How would it advance understanding of the underlying processes, the function of serial dependence, or the theoretical debates around the phenomenon?

      Thank you for pointing this out. Our MEG study was designed to address two questions: 1) we asked whether we could observe a direct neural signature of serial dependence, and 2) if so, whether this signature occurs at the encoding or post-encoding stage of stimulus processing in working memory. This second question directly concerns the current theoretical debate on serial dependence.

      Previous studies have found only indirect signatures of serial dependence such as reactivations of information from the previous trial or signatures of a repulsive bias, which were in contrast to the attractive bias in behavior. Thus, it remained unclear whether an attractive neural bias can be observed as a direct reflection of the behavioral bias. Moreover, previous studies observed the neuronal repulsion during early visual processes, leading to the proposal that neural signals become attracted only during later, post-encoding processes. However, these later processing stages were not directly accessible in previous studies. To address these two questions, we combined MEG recordings with an experimental paradigm with two items and a retro-cue. This design allowed to record neural signals during separable encoding and post-encoding task phases and so to pinpoint the task phase at which a direct neural signature of serial dependence occurred that mirrored the behavioral effect.

      We have slightly modified the Introduction to strengthen the study motivation.

      (1a) As one specific point of clarification, on p. 5, lines 91-92, a previous study (St. JohnSaaltink et al.) is described as part of the current study motivation, stating that "as the current and previous orientations were either identical or orthogonal to each other, it remained unclear whether this neural bias reflected an attraction or repulsion in relation to the past." I think this statement could be more explicit as to why/how these previous findings are ambiguous. The St. John-Saaltink study stands as one of very few that may be considered to show evidence of an early attractive effect in neural activity, so it would help to clarify what sort of advance the current study represents beyond that.

      Thank you for this comment. In the study by St. John-Saaltink et al. (2016), two gratings oriented at 45° and 135° were always presented to either the left or right side of a central fixation point in a trial (90° orientation difference). As only the left/right position of the 45° and 135° gratings varied across trials, the target stimulus in the current trial was either the same or differed by exactly 90° from the previous trial. In consequence, this study could not distinguish whether the observed bias was attractive or repulsive, which concerned both the behavioral effect and the V1 signal. Furthermore, the bias in the V1 signal was partially explained by the orientation that was presented at the same position in the previous trial, which could reflect a reactivation of the previous orientation rather than an actual altered orientation.

      We have changed the Introduction accordingly.

      References:

      St. John-Saaltink E, Kok P, Lau HC, de Lange FP (2016) Serial Dependence in Perceptual Decisions Is Reflected in Ac6vity Pa9erns in Primary Visual Cortex. Journal of Neuroscience 36: 6186–6192.

      (1b) The study motivation might also consider the findings of Ranieri et al (2022, J. Neurosci) Fornaciai, Togoli, & Bueti (2023, J. Neurosci), and Lou& Collins (2023, J. Neurosci) who all test various neural signatures of serial dependence.

      Thank you. As all listed findings showed neural signatures revealing a reactivation of the previous stimulus or a response during the current trial, we have added them to the paragraph in the Introduction referring to this class of evidence for the neural basis for serial dependence.

      (2) Regarding the methods and results, it would help if the initial description of the reconstruction approach, in the main text, gave more context about what data is going into reconstruction (e.g., which sensors), a more conceptual overview of what the 'reconstruction' entails, and what the fidelity metric indexes. To me, all of that is important to interpreting the figures and results. For instance, when I first read, it was unclear to me what it meant to "reconstruct the direction of S1 during the S2 epoch" (p. 10, line 199)? As in, I couldn't tell how the data/model knows which item it is reconstructing, as opposed to just reporting whatever directional information is present in the signal.

      (2a) Relatedly, what does "reconstruction strength" reflect in Figure 2a? Is this different than the fidelity metric? Does fidelity reflect the strength of the particular relevant direction, or does it just mean that there is a high level of any direction information in the signal? In the main text explain what reconstruction strength and what fidelity is?

      Thank you for pointing this out. We applied the inverted encoding model method to MEG data from all active sensors (271) within defined time-windows of 100 ms length. MEG data was recorded in two sessions on different days. Specifically, we constructed an encoding model with 18 motion direction-selective channels. Each channel was designed to show peak sensitivity to a specific motion direction, with gradually decreasing sensitivity to less similar directions. In a training step, the encoding model was fiCed to the MEG data of one session to obtain a weight matrix that indicates how well the sensor activity can be explained by the modeled direction. In the testing step, the weight matrix was inverted and applied to the MEG data of the other session, resulting in a response profile of ‘reconstruction strengths’, i.e., how strongly each motion direction was present in a trial. When a specific motion direction was present in the MEG signal, the reconstruction strengths peaked at that specific direction and decreased with increasing direction difference. If no information was present, reconstruction strengths were comparable across all modeled directions, i.e., the response profile was flat. To integrate response profiles across trials, single trial profiles were aligned to a common center direction (i.e., 180°) and then averaged.

      To quantify the accuracy of each IEM reconstruction, i.e., how well the response profile represents a specific motion direction relative to all other directions we computed the ‘reconstruction fidelity’. Fidelity was obtained by projecting the polar vector of the reconstruction at every direction angle (in steps of 1°) onto the common center (180°) and averaging across all direction angles (Rademaker et al 2019, Sprague, Ester & Serences, 2016). As such, ‘reconstruction fidelity’ is a summary metric with fidelity greater than zero indicating an accurate reconstruction.

      How does the model know which direction to reconstruct? Our modelling procedure was informed about the stimulus in question during both the training and the testing step. Specifically, we informed our model during the training step about e.g., the current S2. Then, we fit the model to training data from the S2 epoch and applied it to testing data from the S2 epoch. Crucially, during the testing step the motion direction in question, i.e., current S2, becomes relevant again. For example, when S2 was 120°, the reconstructions were shifted by 60° in order to align with the common center, i.e., 180°. In addition, we also tested whether we could reconstruct the motion direction of S1 during the S2 epoch. Here, we used again the MEG data from the S2 epoch but now for S1 training. i.e., the model was informed about S1 direction. Accordingly, the recentering step during testing was done with regard to the S1 direction. Similarly, we also reconstructed the motion direction of the previous target (i.e., the previous S1 or S2), e.g., during the S2 epoch.

      Together, the multi-variate pattern of MEG activity across all sensors during the S2 epoch could contain information about the currently presented direction of S2, the direction of the preceding S1 and the direction of the target stimulus from the previous trial (i.e., either previous S1 or previous S2) at the same time. An important exception from this regime was the cross-reconstruction analysis (Appendix 1—figure 2). Here we trained the encoding model on the currently relevant item (S1 during the S1 epoch, S2 during the S2 epoch and the cued item during the retro-cue epoch) of one MEG session and reconstructed the previous target on the other MEG session.

      Finally, to examine shifts of the neural representation, single-trial reconstructions were assigned to two groups, those with a previous target that was oriented clockwise (CW) in relation to the currently relevant item and those with a previous target that was oriented counter-clockwise (CCW). The CCW reconstructions were flipped along the direction space, hence, a negative deviation of the maximum of the reconstruction from 180° indicated an attraction toward the previous target, whereas a positive deviation indicated a repulsion. Those reconstructions were then first averaged within each possible motion direction and then across them to account for different presentation numbers of the directions, resulting in one reconstruction per participant, epoch and time point. To examine systematic shifts, we then tested if the maximum of the reconstruction was systematically different from the common center (180°). For display purposes, we subtracted the reconstructed maximum from 180° to compute the direction shifts. A positive shift thus reflected attraction and a negative shift reflected repulsion.

      We have updated the Results accordingly.

      References:

      Rademaker RL, Chunharas C, Serences JT (2019) Coexisting representations of sensory and mnemonic information in human visual cortex. Nature Neuroscience. 22: 1336-1344.

      Sprague TC, Ester EF, Serences JT (2016) Restoring Latent Visual Working Memory Representations in Human Cortex. Neuron. 91: 694-707

      (3) Then in the Methods, it would help to provide further detail still about the IEM training/testing procedure. For instance, it's not entirely clear to me whether all the analyses use the same model (i.e., all trained on stimulus encoding) or whether each epoch and timepoint is trained on the corresponding epoch and timepoint from the other session. This speaks to whether the reconstructions reflect a shared stimulus code across different conditions vs. that stimulus information about various previous and current trial items can be extracted if the model is tailored accordingly.

      As reported above, our modeling procedure was informed about same stimulus during both the training and the testing step, except for the cross-reconstruction analysis.

      Regarding the training and testing data, the model was always trained on data from one session and tested on data from the other session, so that each MEG session once served as the training data set and once as the test data set, hence, training and test data were independent. Importantly, training and testing was always performed in an epoch- and time point-specific way: For example, the model that was trained on the first 100-ms time bin from the S1 epoch of the first MEG session was tested on the first 100-ms time bin from the S1 epoch of the second MEG session.

      Specifically, when you say "aim of the reconstruction" (p. 31, line 699), does that simply mean the reconstruction was centered in that direction (that the same data would go into reconstructing S1 or S2 in a given epoch, and what would differentiate between them is whether the reconstruction was centered to the S1 or S2 direction value)?

      As reported above, during testing the reconstruction was centered at the currently relevant direction. The encoding model was trained with the direction labels of S1, S2 or the target item, corresponding to the currently relevant direction, i.e., S1 in S1 epochs, S2 in S2 epochs and target item (S1 or S2) in the retro-cue epoch. The only exception was the reconstruction of S1 during the S2 epoch. Here the encoding model was trained on the S1 direction, but with data from the S2 epoch and then applied to the S2 epoch data and recentered to the S1 direction. So here, S1 and S2 were indeed trained and tested separately for the same epoch.

      (4) I think training and testing were done separately for each epoch and timepoint, but this could have important implications for interpreting the results. Namely if the models are trained and tested on different time points, and reference directions, then some will be inherently noisier than others (e.g., delay period more so than encoding), and potentially more (or differently) susceptible to bias. For instance, the S1 and S2 epochs show no attractive bias, but they may also be based on more high-fidelity training sets (i.e., encoding), and therefore less susceptible to the bias that is evident in the retrocue epoch.

      Thanks for pointing this out. Training and testing were performed in an epoch- and time point-specific way. Thus, potential differences in the signal-to-noise ratio between different task phases could cause quality differences between the corresponding reconstructed MEG signals. However, we did not observe such differences. Instead, we found comparable time courses of the reconstruction fidelities and the averaged reconstruction strengths between epochs (Figure 2b and 2c, respectively). Fig. 2b, e.g., shows that reconstruction fidelity for motion direction stimuli built up slowly during the stimulus presentation, reaching its maximum only after stimulus offset. This observation may contrast to different stimulus materials with faster build-ups, like the orientation of a Gabor.

      We agree with the reviewer that, regardless of the comparable but not perfectly equal reconstruction fidelities, there are good arguments to assume that the neural representation of the stimulus during its encoding is typically less noisy than during its post-encoding processing and that this difference could be one of the reasons why serial dependence emerged in our study only during the retro-cue epoch. However, the argument could also be reversed: a biased representation, which represents a small and hard-to-detect neural effect, might be easier to observe for less noisy data. So, the fact that we found a significant bias only during the potentially “noisier” retro-cue epoch makes the effect even more noteworthy.

      We mentioned the limitation related to our stimulus material already at the end of the Discussion. We have now added a new paragraph to the Discussion to address the two opposing lines of reasoning.  

      (4) I believe the work would benefit from a further effort to reconcile these results with previous findings (i.e., those that showed repulsion, like Sheehan & Serences), potentially through additional analyses. The discussion attributes the difference in findings to the "combination of a retro-cue paradigm with the high temporal resolution of MEG," but it's unclear how that explains why various others observed repulsion (thought to happen quite early) that is not seen at any stage here. In my view, the temporal (as well as spatial) resolution of MEG could be further exploited here to better capture the early vs. late stages of processing. For instance, by separately examining earlier vs. later time points (instead of averaging across all of them), or by identifying and analyzing data in the sensors that might capture early vs. late stages of processing. Indeed, the S1 and S2 reconstructions show subtle repulsion, which might be magnified at earlier time points but then shift (toward attraction) at later time points, thereby counteracting any effect. Likewise, the S1 reconstruction becomes biased during the S2 epoch, consistent with previous observations that the SD effects grow across a WM delay. Maybe both S1 and S2 would show an attractive bias emerging during the later (delay) portion of their corresponding epoch? As is, the data nicely show that an attractive bias can be detected in the retrocue period activity, but they could still yield further specificity about when and where that bias emerges.

      We are grateful for this suggestion. Before going into detail, we would like to explain our motivation for choosing the present analysis approach that included averaging time points within an epoch of interest.

      Our aim was to detect a neuronal signature of serial dependence which is manifested as an attractive shift of about 3.5° degrees within the 360° direction space. To be able to detect such a small effect in the neural data and given the limited resolution of the reconstruction method and the noisy MEG signals, we needed to maximize the signal-to-noise ratio. A common method to obtain this is by averaging data points. In our study we asked subjects to perform 1022 trials, down-sampled the MEG data from the recorded sampling rate of 1200 Hz to 10 Hz (one data point per 100 ms) that we used for the estimation of reconstruction fidelity and calculated the final neural shift estimates by averaging time points that showed a robust reconstruction fidelity, thus representing interpretable data points.

      Our procedure to maximize the signal-to-noise ratio was successful as we were able to reliably reconstruct the presented and remembered motion direction in all epochs (Figure 1a and 1b in the manuscript). However, the reconstruction did not work equally well for all time points within each epoch. In particular, there were time points with a non-significant reconstruction fidelity. In consequence, for the much smaller neural shift effect we did not expect to observe reliable time-resolved results, i.e., when considering each time point separately. Instead, we used the reconstruction results to define the time window in order to calculate the neural shift, i.e., we averaged across all time points with a significant reconstruction fidelity.

      Author response image 1 depicts the neural shift separately for each time point during the retro-cue epoch. Importantly, the gray parts of the time courses indicate time points where the reconstruction of the presented or cued stimulus was not significant. This means that the reconstructed maxima at those time points were very variable/unreliable and therefore the neural shifts were hardly interpretable.

      Author response image 1.

      Time courses of the reconstruction shift reveal a tendency for an attractive bias during the retrocue phase. Time courses of the neural shift separately for each time point during the S1 (left panel), S2 (middle panel) and retro-cue epochs (right panel). Gray lines indicate time points with non-significant reconstruction fidelities and therefore very variable and non-interpretable neural reconstruction shifts. The colored parts of the lines correspond to the time periods of significant reconstruction fidelities with interpretable reconstruction shifts. Error bars indicate the middle 95% of the resampling distribution. Time points with less than 5% (equaling p < .05) of the resampling distribution below 0° are indicated by a colored circle. N = 10.

      First, the time courses in the Author response image 1 show that the neural bias varied considerably between subjects, as revealed by the resampling distributions, at given time points. In this resampling procedure, we drew 10 participants in 10.000 iterations with replacement and calculated the reconstruction shift based on the mean reconstruction of the resampled participants. The observed variability stresses the necessity to average the values across all time points that showed a significant reconstruction fidelity to increase the signal-to-noise ratio.

      Second, despite this high variability/low signal-to-noise ratio, Author response image 1 (right panel) shows that our choice for this procedure was sensible as it revealed a clear tendency of an attractive shift at almost all time points between 300 through 1500 ms after retro-cue onset with only a few individual time-points showing a significant effect (uncorrected for multiple comparisons). It is worth to mention that this time course did not overlap with the time course of previous target cross-reconstruction (Appendix 1—figure 2, right panel), as there was no significant target cross-reconstruction during the retro-cue epoch with an almost flat profile around zero. Also, there was no overlap with previous target decoding in the retro-cue epoch (Figure 5 in the manuscript). Here, the previous target was reactivated significantly only at early time points of 200 and 300 ms post cue onset (i.e., at time points with a non-significant reconstruction fidelity and therefore no interpretable neural shift), while the nominally highest values of the attractive neural shift were visible at later time points that also showed a significant reconstruction fidelity (Figure 2b in the manuscript).

      Third, Author response image 1 (left and middle panel) shows the time courses of the neural shift during the S1 and S2 epochs. While no neural shift could be observed for S1, during the S2 epoch the time-resolved analysis indicated an initial attractive shift followed by a (nonsignificant) tendency for a repulsive shift. After averaging neural shifts across time points with a significant reconstruction fidelity, there was no significant effect with an overall tendency for repulsion, as reported in the paper. The attractive part of the neural shift during the S2 epoch was nominally strongest at very early time points (at 100-300 ms after S2 onset) and overlapped perfectly with the reactivation of the previous target as shown by the cross-reconstruction analysis (Appendix 1—figure 2, middle panel). This overlap suggests that the neural attractive shift did not reflect an actual bias of the early S2 representation, but rather a consequence of the concurrent reactivation of the previous target in the same neural code as the current representation. Finally, this neural attractive shift during S2 presentation did not correlate with the behavioral error (single trial-wise correlation: no significant time points during S2 epoch) or the behavioral bias (subject-wise correlation). In contrast, for the retro-cue epoch, we observed a significant correlation between the neural attractive shift and behavior.

      Together, the time-resolved results show a clear tendency for an attractive neural bias during the retro-cue phase, thus supporting our interpretation that the attractive shift during the retro-cue phase reflects a direct neuronal signature of serial dependence. However, these additional analyses also demonstrated a large variability between participants and across time points, warranting a cautious interpretation. We conclude that our initial approach of averaging across time points was an appropriate way of reducing the high level of noise in the data and revealed the reported significant and robust attractive neural shift in the retrocue phase.

      (5) A few other potentially interesting (but inessential considerations): A benchmark property of serial dependence is its feature-specificity, in that the attractive bias occurs only between current and previous stimuli that are within a certain range of similarity to each other in feature space. I would be very curious to see if the neural reconstructions manifest this principle - for instance, if one were to plot the trialwise reconstruction deviation from 0, across the full space of current-previous trial distances, as in the behavioral data. Likewise, something that is not captured by the DoG fivng approach, but which this dataset may be in a position to inform, is the commonly observed (but little understood) repulsive effect that appears when current and previous stimuli are quite distinct from each other. As in, Figure 1b shows an attractive bias for direction differences around 30 degrees, but a repulsive one for differences around 170 degrees - is there a corresponding neural signature for this component of the behavior?

      We appreciate the reviewer's idea to split the data. However, given that our results strongly relied on the inclusion of all data points, i.e., including all distances in motion direction between the current S1, S2 or target and the previous target and requiring data averaging, we are concerned that our study was vastly underpowered to be able to inform whether the attractive bias occurs only within a certain range of inter-stimulus similarity. To address this important question, future studies would require neural measurements with much higher signal-to-noise-ratio than the present MEG recordings with two sessions per participant and 1022 trials in total.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study aims to probe the neural correlates of visual serial dependence - the phenomenon that estimates of a visual feature (here motion direction) are attracted towards the recent history of encoded and reported stimuli. The authors utilize an established retro-cue working memory task together with magnetoencephalography, which allows to probe neural representations of motion direction during encoding and retrieval (retro-cue) periods of each trial. The main finding is that neural representations of motion direction are not systematically biased during the encoding of motion stimuli, but are attracted towards the motion direction of the previous trial's target during the retrieval (retro-cue period), just prior to the behavioral response. By demonstrating a neural signature of attractive biases in working memory representations, which align with attractive behavioral biases, this study highlights the importance of post-encoding memory processes in visual serial dependence.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of the study is its elegant use of a retro-cue working memory task together with high temporal resolution MEG, enabling to probe neural representations related to stimulus encoding and working memory. The behavioral task elicits robust behavioral serial dependence and replicates previous behavioral findings by the same research group. The careful neural decoding analysis benefits from a large number of trials per participant, considering the slow-paced nature of the working memory paradigm. This is crucial in a paradigm with considerable trial-by-trial behavioral variability (serial dependence biases are typically small, relative to the overall variability in response errors). While the current study is broadly consistent with previous studies showing that attractive biases in neural responses are absent during stimulus encoding (previous studies reported repulsive biases), to my knowledge it is the first study showing attractive biases in current stimulus representations during working memory. The study also connects to previous literature showing reactivations of previous stimulus representations, although the link between reactivations and biases remains somewhat vague in the current manuscript. Together, the study reveals an interesting avenue for future studies investigating the neural basis of visual serial dependence.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The main weakness of the current manuscript is that the authors could have done more analyses to address the concern that their neural decoding results are driven by signals related to eye movements. The authors show that participants' gaze position systematically depended on the current stimuli's motion directions, which together with previous studies on eye movement-related confounds in neural decoding justifies such a concern. The authors seek to rule out this confound by showing that the consistency of stimulus-dependent gaze position does not correlate with (a) the neural reconstruction fidelity and (b) the repulsive shift in reconstructed motion direction. However, both of these controls do not directly address the concern. If I understand correctly the metric quantifying the consistency of stimulus-dependent gaze position (Figure S3a) only considers gaze angle and not gaze amplitude. Furthermore, it does not consider gaze position as a function of continuous motion direction, but instead treats motion directions as categorical variables. Therefore, assuming an eye movement confound, it is unclear whether the gaze consistency metric should strongly correlate with neural reconstruction fidelity, or whether there are other features of eye movements (e.g., amplitude differences across participants, and tuning of gaze in the continuous space of motion directions) which would impact the relationship with neural decoding. Moreover, it is unclear whether the consistency metric, which does not consider history dependencies in eye movements, should correlate with attractive history biases in neural decoding. It would be more straightforward if the authors would attempt to (a) directly decode stimulus motion direction from x-y gaze coordinates and relate this decoding performance to neural reconstruction fidelity, and (b) investigate whether gaze coordinates themselves are history-dependent and are attracted to the average gaze position associated with the previous trials' target stimulus. If the authors could show that (b) is not the case, I would be much more convinced that their main finding is not driven by eye movement confounds.

      The reviewer is correct that our eye-movement analysis approach considered gaze angle (direction) and not gaze amplitude. We considered gaze direction to be the more important feature to control for when investigating the neural basis of serial dependence that manifests, given the stimulus material used in our study, as a shift/deviation of angle/direction of a representation towards the previous target motion direction. To directly relate gaze direction and MEG data to each other we equaled the temporal resolution of the eye tracking data to match that of the MEG data. Specifically, our analysis procedure of gaze direction provided a measure indicating to which extent the variance of the gaze directions was reduced compared with random gaze direction patterns, in relation to the specific stimulus direction within each 100 ms time bin. Importantly, this procedure was able to reveal not only systematic gaze directions that were in accordance with the stimulus direction or the opposite direction, but also picked up all stimulus-related gaze directions, even if the relation differed across participants or time.

      Our analysis approach was highly sensitive to detect stimulus-related gaze directions during all task phases (Appendix 1—figure 3). As expected, we found systematic gaze directions when S1 and S2 were presented on the screen, and they were reduced thereafter, indicating a clear relationship between stimulus presentation and eye movement. Systematic gaze directions were also present in the retro-cue phase where no motion direction was presented. Here they showed a clearly different temporal dynamic as compared to the S1 and S2 phases. They appeared at later time points and with a higher variability between participants, indicating that they coincided with retrieving the target motion direction from working memory.

      To relate gaze directions with MEG results, we calculated Spearman rank correlations. We found that there was no systematic relationship at any time point between the stimulus related reconstruction fidelity and the amount of stimulus-related gaze direction. Even more, the correlation varied strongly from time point to time point revealing its random nature. In addition to the lack of significant correlations, we observed clearly distinct temporal profiles for gaze direction (Appendix 1—figure 3a and Appendix 1—figure 3b) and the reconstruction fidelities (Figure 2b in the manuscript, Appendix 1—figure 3c), in particular in the critical retro-cue phase.

      We favored this analysis approach over one that directly decoded stimulus motion direction from x-y gaze coordinates, as we considered it hardly feasible to compute an inverted encoding model with only two eye-tracker channels as an input (in comparison to 271 MEG sensors), and to our knowledge, this has not been done before. Other decoding methods have previously been applied to x-y gaze coordinates. However, in contrast to the inverted encoding model, they did not provide a measure of the representation shift which would be crucial for our investigation of serial dependence.

      We appreciate the suggestion to conduct additional analyses on eye tracking data (including different temporal and spatial resolution and different features) and their relation to MEG data. However, the first author, who ran all the analyses, has in the meantime left academia. Unfortunately, we currently do not have sufficient resources to perform additional analyses.

      While the presented eye movement control analysis makes us confident that our MEG finding was not crucially driven by stimulus-related gaze directions, we agree with the reviewer that we cannot completely exclude that other eye movement-related features could have contributed to our MEG findings. However, we would like to stress that whatever that main source for the observed MEG effect was (shift of the neuronal stimulus representation, (other) features of gaze movement, or shift of the neuronal stimulus representation that leads to systematic gaze movement), our study still provided clear evidence that serial dependence emerged at a later post-encoding stage of object processing in working memory. This central finding of our study is hard to observe with behavioral measures alone and is not affected by the possible effects of eye movements.

      We have slightly modified our conclusion in the Results and Appendix 1. Please see also our response to comment 1 from reviewer 3.

      (2) I am not convinced by the across-participant correlation between attractive biases in neural representations and attractive behavioral biases in estimation reports. One would expect a correlation with the behavioral bias amplitude, which is not borne out. Instead, there is a correlation with behavioral bias width, but no explanation of how bias width should relate to the bias in neural representations. The authors could be more explicit in their arguments about how these metrics would be functionally related, and why there is no correlation with behavioral bias amplitude.

      We are grateful for this suggestion. We correlated the individual neuronal shift with the two individual parameter fits of the behavior shift, i.e., amplitude (a) and tuning width (w). We found a significant correlation between the individual neural bias and the w parameter (r = .70, p = .0246) but not with the a parameter (r = -.35, p = .3258) during the retro-cue period (Appendix 1—figure 1). This indicates that a broader tuning width of the individual bias (as reflected by a smaller w parameter) was associated with a stronger individual neural attraction.

      It is important to note that for the calculation of the neural shift, all trials entered the analysis to increase the signal-to-noise ratio, i.e., it included many trials where current and previous targets were separated by, e.g., 100° or more. These trials were unlikely to produce serial dependence. Subjects with a more broadly tuned serial dependence had more interitem differences that showed a behavioral attraction and therefore more trials affected by serial dependence that entered the calculation of the neural shift. In contrast, individual differences in the amplitude (a) parameter were most likely too small, and higher individual amplitude did not involve more trials as compared to smaller amplitude to affect the neural bias in a way to be observed in a significant correlation.

      We have added this explanation to Appendix 1.  

      (3) The sample size (n = 10) is definitely at the lower end of sample sizes in this field. The authors collected two sessions per participant, which partly alleviates the concern. However, given that serial dependencies can be very variable across participants, I believe that future studies should aim for larger sample sizes.

      We want to express our appreciation for raising this issue. We apologize that we did not explicitly explain and justifythe choice for the sample size used in our paper, in particular, as we had in fact performed a formal a-priori power analysis.

      At the time of the sample size calculation, there were no comparable EEG or MEG studies to inform our power calculation. Thus, we based our calculation merely on the behavioral effect reported in the literature and, in particular, observed in a behavioral study from our lab that included four different experiments with overall more than 100 participants with 1632 trials each (see Fischer et al., 2020), in which the behavioral serial dependence effect (target vs. nontarget) was very robust. Based on the contrast between target and non-target with an effect size of 1.359 in Experiment 1, a power analysis with 80% desired power led to a small, estimated sample size of 6 subjects.

      However, we expected that the detection of the neural signature of this effect would require more participants. Therefore, we based our power calculation on a much smaller behavioral effect, i.e. the modulation of serial dependence by the context-feature congruency that we observed in our previous study (Fischer et al., 2020). In particular, we focused on Experiment 1 of the previous study that used color as the feature for retro-cueing, as we planned to use exactly the same paradigm for the MEG study. In contrast to the serial dependence effect, its modulation by color resulted in a more conservative power estimate: Based on an effect size of 0.856 in that experiment, a sample size of n = 10 should yield a power of 80% with two MEG sessions per subject.

      At the time when we conducted our study, two other studies were published that investigated serial dependence on the neural level. Both studies included a smaller number of data points than our study: Sheehan & Serences (2022) recorded about 840 trials in each of 6 participants, resulting in fewer data points both on the participant and on the trial level. Hajonides et al. (2023) measured 20 participants with 400 trials each, again resulting in fewer datapoints than our study (10 participants with 1022 trials each). Taken together, our a-priori sample size estimation resulted in comparable if not higher power as compared to other similar studies, making us feel confident that the estimated sample was sufficient to yield reliable results.

      We have now included this description and the results of this power analysis in the Materials and Methods section.

      Despite this, we fully agree with the reviewer that our study would profit from higher power. With the knowledge of the results from this study, future projects should attempt to increase substantially the signal-to-noise-ratio by increasing the number of trials in particular, in order to observe, e.g., robust time-resolved effects (see our comments to review 1).

      References:

      Fischer C, Czoschke S, Peters B, Rahm B, Kaiser J, Bledowski C (2020) Context information supports serial dependence of multiple visual objects across memory episodes. Nature Communication 11: 1932.

      Sheehan TC, Serences JT (2022) Attractive serial dependence overcomes repulsive neuronal adaptation PLOS Biology 20: e3001711.

      Hajonides JE, Van Ede F, Stokes MG, Nobre AC, Myers NE (2023) Multiple and Dissociable Effects of Sensory History on Working-Memory Performance Journal of Neuroscience 43: 2730–2740.

      (4) It would have been great to see an analysis in source space. As the authors mention in their introduction, different brain areas, such as PPC, mPFC, and dlPFC have been implicated in serial biases. This begs the question of which brain areas contribute to the serial dependencies observed in the current study. For instance, it would be interesting to see whether attractive shifts in current representations and pre-stimulus reactivations of previous stimuli are evident in the same or different brain areas.

      We appreciate this suggestion. As mentioned above, we currently do not have sufficient resources to perform a MEG source analysis.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study identifies the neural source of serial dependence in visual working memory, i.e., the phenomenon that recall from visual working memory is biased towards recently remembered but currently irrelevant stimuli. Whether this bias has a perceptual or postperceptual origin has been debated for years - the distinction is important because of its implications for the neural mechanism and ecological purpose of serial dependence. However, this is the first study to provide solid evidence based on human neuroimaging that identifies a post-perceptual memory maintenance stage as the source of the bias. The authors used multivariate pattern analysis of magnetoencephalography (MEG) data while observers remembered the direction of two moving dot stimuli. After one of the two stimuli was cued for recall, decoding of the cued motion direction re-emerged, but with a bias towards the motion direction cued on the previous trial. By contrast, decoding of the stimuli during the perceptual stage was not biased.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of the paper are its design, which uses a retrospective cue to clearly distinguish the perceptual/encoding stage from the post-perceptual/maintenance stage, and the rigour of the careful and well-powered analysis. The study benefits from high within participant power through the use of sensitive MEG recordings (compared to the more common EEG), and the decoding and neural bias analysis are done with care and sophistication, with appropriate controls to rule out confounds.

      Weaknesses:

      A minor weakness of the study is the remaining (but slight) possibility of an eye movement confound. A control analysis shows that participants make systematic eye movements that are aligned with the remembered motion direction during both the encoding and maintenance phases of the task. The authors go some way to show that this eye gaze bias seems unrelated to the decoding of MEG data, but in my opinion do not rule it out conclusively. They merely show that the strengths of the gaze bias and the strength of MEGbased decoding/neural bias are uncorrelated across the 10 participants. Therefore, this argument seems to rest on a null result from an underpowered analysis.

      Our MEG as well eye-movement analysis showed that they were sensitive to pick up robustly stimulus-related effects, both for presented and remembered motion directions. When relating both signals to each other by correlating MEG reconstruction strength with gaze direction, we found a null effect, as pointed out by the reviewer. Importantly, there was also a null effect when the shift of the reconstruction (representing our main finding) was correlated with gaze direction. Furthermore, an examination of the individual time courses of gaze direction and individual MEG reconstruction strength revealed that the lack of a relationship between MEG and gaze data did not rest on a singular observation but was present across all time points. Even more, the temporal profile of the correlation varied strongly from time point to time point revealing its random nature and indicating that there was no hint of a pattern that just failed to reach significance. Taking these observations together, our MEG findings were unlikely to be explained by eye position.

      Nevertheless, we agree with the reviewer that there is general problem of interpreting a null effect with a limited number of observations (and an analysis approach that focused on one out of many possible features of the gaze movement). Thus, we admit that there is a (slight) possibility that eye movements contributed to the observed MEG effects. This possibility, however, did not affect our novel finding that serial dependence occurred during the postencoding stage of object processing in working memory.

      Please see also our response to point 1 from reviewer 2.

      Impact:

      This important study contributes to the debate on serial dependence with solid evidence that biased neural representations emerge only at a relatively late post-perceptual stage, in contrast to previous behavioural studies. This finding is of broad relevance to the study of working memory, perception, and decision-making by providing key experimental evidence favouring one class of computational models of how stimulus history affects the processing of the current environment.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor concerns:

      The significance statement opens "Our perception is biased towards sensory input from the recent past." This is a semantic point, but it seems a somewhat odd statement, given there is so much debate about whether serial dependence is perceptual vs. decisional, and that the current work indeed claims that it emerges at a late, post-encoding stage.

      Thank you for this point. We agree. “Visual cognition is biased towards sensory input from the recent past.” would be a more appropriate statement. According to the Journal's guidelines, however, the paragraph with the Significant Statement will be not included in the final manuscript.

      It would be preferable for data and code to be available at review so that reviewers might verify some procedural points for clarity.

      Code and preprocessed data used for the presented analyses are now available on OSF via http://osf.io/yjc93/. Due to storage limitations, only the preprocessed MEG data for the main IEM analyses focusing on the current direction are uploaded. For access to additional data, please contact the authors.

      For instance, I could use some clarification on the trial sequence. The methods first say the direction was selected randomly, but then later say each direction occurred equally often, and there were restrictions on the relationships between current and previous trial items. So it seems it couldn't have truly been random direction selection - was the order selected randomly from a predetermined set of possibilities?

      For the S1/S2 stimuli in a trial the dots moved fully coherent in a direction randomly drawn from a pool of directions between 5° and 355° spaced 10° from one another, therefore avoiding cardinal directions. Across trials, there was a predetermined set of possible differences in motion direction between the current and the previous target. This set included 18 motion direction differences, ranging from -170° to 180°, in steps of 10°. Trial sequences were balanced in a way that each of these differences occurred equally often during a MEG session.

      I could also use some additional assurance the sample size (participants or data points) is sufficient for the analysis approach deployed here.

      We performed a formal a-priori power analysis to justify our choice for the sample size. Please see our response to reviewer 2, point 3, where we explained the procedure of the apriori power analysis in detail. We have now included this description and the results of this power analysis in the Materials and Methods.

      Did you consider a decoding approach, instead of reconstruction, to test what information predominates the signal, in an unbiased way?

      Thank you for this argument. With our analysis approach based on the inverted encoding model, we believe to be unbiased, since we first reconstructed whether the MEG signal contained information about the presented and remembered motion direction. Only in the next step, we tested whether this reconstructed signal showed an offset and if so, whether this offset was biased towards or away from the previous target. A decoding approach aims to answer classification questions and is not suitable to reveal the actual shifts of the neural information. In our study, we could decode, e.g., the current direction or the previous target, but this would not answer the question of whether and at which stage of object processing the current representation was biased towards the past. Moreover, in a decoding approach to reveal which information predominates in the signal, we would have to classify different options (e.g. current information vs previous), thereby biasing the possible set of results more than in our chosen analysis.

      I think the claim of a "direct" neural signature may come off as an overstatement when the spatial and temporal aspects of the attractive bias are still so coarsely specified here.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We agree that the term “direct neural signature” can be seen as an overstatement when it is interpreted to indicate a narrowly defined activity of a brain region (ideally via “direct” invasive recordings) that reflects serial dependence. Our definition of the term “direct” referred to the observation of an attractive shift in a neural representation of the current target motion direction item towards the previous target. This was in contrast to previous “indirect” evidence for the neural basis of serial dependence based on either repulsive shifts of neural representations that were opposite to the attractive bias in behavior or on a reactivation of previous information in the current trial without presenting evidence for the actual neural shift. With this definition in mind, we consider the title of our study a valid description of our findings.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I was wondering why the authors chose a bootstrap test for their neural bias analysis instead of a permutation test, similar to the one they used for their behavioral analysis. As far as I know, bootstrap tests do not provide guaranteed type-1 error rate control. The procedure for the permutation test would be quite straightforward here, randomly permuting the sign of each participant's neural shift and recording the group-average shift in a permutation distribution. This test seems more adequate and more consistent with the behavioral analysis.

      Thank you for this comment. We adapted a resampling approach (bootstrapping) that was similar to that by Ester et al. (2020) who also investigated categorical biases and also applied a reconstruction method (Inverted Encoding Model) to assess significance of a bias of the reconstructed orientation against zero in a certain direction. The bootstrapping method relied on a) detecting an offset against zero and b) evaluating the robustness of the observed effect across participants. In contrast, a permutation approach, as suggested by the reviewer, assesses whether an empirical neural shift is more extreme than the permutation distribution. The permutation approach seems more suited to assess the magnitude of the shift which in our study was not a priority. Therefore, we reasoned that the bootstrapping for our inference statistics was better suited to assess the direction of the neural shift and its robustness across participants.

      We have added this additional information to the Materials and Methods:

      References:

      Ester EF, Sprague TC, Serences JT (2020) Categorical biases in human occipitoparietal cortex. Journal of Neuroscience 40:917–931.

      The manuscript could be improved by more clearly spelling how the training and testing data were labelled, particularly for the reactivation analyses. If I understood correctly, in the first reactivation analysis the authors train and test on current trial data, but label both training and testing data according to the previous trial's motion direction. In the second analysis, they label the training data according to the current motion direction, but label the testing data according to the previous motion direction. Is that correct?

      Yes, this is correct. Please see also our response to reviewer 1, point 2 and 3, for a detailed description.

      I was surprised to see that the shift in the reconstructed direction is about three times larger than the behavioral attraction bias. Would one not expect these to be comparable in magnitude? It would be helpful to address and discuss this in the discussion section.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We agree with the reviewer that as both measures provided an identical metric (angle degree), one would expect that their magnitudes should be directly comparable. However, we speculate that these magnitudes inform only about the direction of the bias and their significant difference from zero, thus they operate on different scales and are not directly comparable. For example, Hallenbeck et al. (2022) showed that fMRI-based reconstructed orientation bias and behavioral bias correlated on both individual and group level, despite strong magnitude differences. This is in line with our observation and supports the speculation that the magnitudes of neural and behavioral biases operate on different scales and, thus, are not directly comparable.

      We have updated to the Discussion accordingly.

      References:

      Hallenbeck GE, Sprague TC, Rahmati M, Sreenivasan KK, Curtis CE (2022) Working memory representations in visual cortex mediate distraction effects Nature Communications 12: 471.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) It may be worth showing that the gaze bias towards the current/cued stimulus is not biased towards the previous target. One option might be to run the same analysis pipeline used for the MEG decoding but on the eye-tracking data. Another could be to remove all participants with significant gaze bias, but given the small sample size, this might not be feasible.

      We appreciate this suggestion. However, as mentioned above, we currently do not have sufficient resources to conduct additional analyses on the eye tracking data.

      (2) Minor typo: Figure 3c - bias should be 11.7º, not -11.7º.

      Corrected. Thank you!

      Note on data/code availability: The authors state that preprocessed data and analysis code will be made available on publication, but are not available yet.

      Code and preprocessed data used for the present analyses are now available on OSF via http://osf.io/yjc93/. Due to storage limitations, only the preprocessed MEG data for the main IEM analyses focusing on the current direction are uploaded. For access to additional data, please contact the authors.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study provides valuable information on the mechanism of PepT2 through enhanced-sampling molecular dynamics, backed by cell-based assays, highlighting the importance of protonation of selected residues for the function of a proton-coupled oligopeptide transporter (hsPepT2). The molecular dynamics approaches are convincing, but with limitations that could be addressed in the manuscript, including lack of incorporation of a protonation coordinate in the free energy landscape, possibility of protonation of the substrate, errors with the chosen constant pH MD method for membrane proteins, dismissal of hysteresis emerging from the MEMENTO method, and the likelihood of other residues being affected by peptide binding. Some changes to the presentation could be considered, including a better description of pKa calculations and the inclusion of error bars in all PMFs. Overall, the findings will appeal to structural biologists, biochemists, and biophysicists studying membrane transporters.

      We would like to express our gratitude to the reviewers for providing their feedback on our manuscript, and also for recognising the variety of computational methods employed, the amount of sampling collected and the experimental validation undertaken. Following the individual reviewer comments, as addressed point-by-point below, we have prepared a revised manuscript, but before that we address some of the comments made above in the general assessment:

      • “lack of incorporation of a protonation coordinate in the free energy landscape”.

      We acknowledge that of course it would be highly desirable to treat protonation state changes explicitly and fully coupled to conformational changes. However, at this point in time, evaluating such a free energy landscape is not computationally feasible (especially considering that the non-reactive approach taken here already amounts to almost 1ms of total sampling time).  Previous reports in the literature tend to focus on either simpler systems or a reduced subset of a larger problem.  As we were trying to obtain information on the whole transport cycle, we decided to focus here on non-reactive methods.

      • “possibility of protonation of the substrate”.

      The reviewers are correct in pointing out this possibility, which we had not discussed explicitly in our manuscript.  Briefly, while we describe a mechanism in which protonation of only protein residues (with an unprotonated ligand) can account for driving all the necessary conformational changes of the transport cycle, there is some evidence for a further intermediate protonation site in our data (as we commented on in the first version of the manuscript as well), which may or may not be the substrate itself. A future explicit treatment of the proton movements through the transporter, when it will become computationally tractable to do so, will have to include the substrate as a possible protonation site; for the present moment, we have amended our discussion to alert the reader to the possibility that the substrate could be an intermediate to proton transport. This has repercussions for our study of the E56 pKa value, where – if protons reside with a significant population at the substrate C-terminus – our calculated shift in pKa upon substrate binding could be an overestimate, although we would qualitatively expect the direction of shift to be unaffected. However, we also anticipate that treating this potential coupling explicitly would make convergence of any CpHMD calculation impractical to achieve and thus it may be the case that for now only a semi-quantitative conclusion is all that can be obtained.

      • “errors with the chosen constant pH MD method for membrane proteins”.

      We acknowledge that – as reviewer #1 has reminded us – the AMBER implementation of hybrid-solvent CpHMD is not rigorous for membrane proteins, and as such added a cautionary note to our paper.  We also explain how the use of the ABFE thermodynamic cycle calculations helps to validate the CpHMD results in a completely orthogonal manner (we have promoted this validation, which was in the supplementary figures, into the main text in the revised version).   We therefore remain reasonably confident in the results presented with regards to the reported pKa shift of E56 upon substrate binding, and suggest that if the impact of neglecting the membrane in the implicit-solvent stage of CpHMD is significant, then there is likely an error cancellation when considering shifts induced by the incoming substrate.

      • “dismissal of hysteresis emerging from the MEMENTO method”.

      We have shown in our method design paper how the use of the MEMENTO method drastically reduces hysteresis compared to steered MD for path generation, and find this improvement again for PepT2 in this study. We address reviewer #3’s concern about our presentation on this point by revising our introduction of the MEMENTO method, as detailed in the response below.

      • “the likelihood of other residues being affected by peptide binding”.

      In this study, we have investigated in detail the involvement of several residues in proton-coupled di-peptide transport by PepT2. Short of the potential intermediate protonation site mentioned above, the set of residues we investigate form a minimal set of sorts within which the important driving forces of alternating access can be rationalised.  We have not investigated in substantial detail here the residues involved in holding the peptide in the binding site, as they are well studied in the literature and ligand promiscuity is not the problem of interest here. It remains entirely possible that further processes contribute to the mechanism of driving conformational changes by involving other residues not considered in this paper. We have now made our speculation that an ensemble of different processes may be contributing simultaneously more explicit in our revision, but do not believe any of our conclusions would be affected by this.

      As for the additional suggested changes in presentation, we provide the requested details on the CpHMD analysis. Furthermore, we use the convergence data presented separately in figures S12 and S16 to include error bars on our 1D-reprojections of the 2D-PMFs in figures 3, 4 and 5. (Note that we have opted to not do so in figures S10 and S15 which collate all 1D PMF reprojections for the OCC ↔ OF and OCC ↔ IF transitions in single reference plots, respectively, to avoid overcrowding those necessarily busy figures). We have also changed the colours schemes of these plots in our revision to improve accessibility. We have additionally taken the opportunity to fix some typos and further clarified some other statements throughout the manuscript, besides the requests from the reviewers.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors have performed all-atom MD simulations to study the working mechanism of hsPepT2. It is widely accepted that conformational transitions of proton-coupled oligopeptide transporters (POTs) are linked with gating hydrogen bonds and salt bridges involving protonatable residues, whose protonation triggers gate openings. Through unbiased MD simulations, the authors identified extra-cellular (H87 and D342) and intra-cellular (E53 and E622) triggers. The authors then validated these triggers using free energy calculations (FECs) and assessed the engagement of the substrate (Ala-Phe dipeptide). The linkage of substrate release with the protonation of the ExxER motif (E53 and E56) was confirmed using constant-pH molecular dynamics (CpHMD) simulations and cellbased transport assays. An alternating-access mechanism was proposed. The study was largely conducted properly, and the paper was well-organized. However, I have a couple of concerns for the authors to consider addressing.

      We would like to note here that it may be slightly misleading to the reader to state that “The linkage of substrate release with the protonation of the ExxER motif (E53 and E56) was confirmed using constant-pH molecular dynamics (CpHMD) simulations and cell-based transport assays.” The cellbased transport assays confirmed the importance of the extracellular gating trigger residues H87, S321 and D342 (as mentioned in the preceding sentence), not of the substrate-protonation link as this line might be understood to suggest.

      (1) As a proton-coupled membrane protein, the conformational dynamics of hsPepT2 are closely coupled to protonation events of gating residues. Instead of using semi-reactive methods like CpHMD or reactive methods such as reactive MD, where the coupling is accounted for, the authors opted for extensive non-reactive regular MD simulations to explore this coupling. Note that I am not criticizing the choice of methods, and I think those regular MD simulations were well-designed and conducted. But I do have two concerns.

      a) Ideally, proton-coupled conformational transitions should be modelled using a free energy landscape with two or more reaction coordinates (or CVs), with one describing the protonation event and the other describing the conformational transitions. The minimum free energy path then illustrates the reaction progress, such as OCC/H87D342-  →  OCC/H87HD342H →  OF/H87HD342H as displayed in Figure 3.

      We concur with the reviewer that the ideal way of describing the processes studied in our paper would be as a higher-dimensional free energy landscapes obtained from a simulation method that can explicitly model proton-transfer processes. Indeed, it would have been particularly interesting and potentially informative with regards to the movement of protons down into the transporter in the OF → OCC → IF sequence of transitions. As we note in our discussion on the H87→E56 proton transfer: 

      “This could be investigated using reactive MD or QM/MM simulations (both approaches have been employed for other protonation steps of prokaryotic peptide transporters, see Parker et al. (2017) and Li et al. (2022)).  However, the putative path is very long (≈ 1.7 nm between H87 and E56) and may or may not involve a large number of intermediate protonatable residues, in addition to binding site water. While such an investigation is possible in principle, it is beyond the scope of the present study.” 

      Where even sampling the proton transfer step itself in an essentially static protein conformation would be pushing the boundaries of what has been achieved in the field, we believe that considering the current state-of-the-art, a fully coupled investigation of large-scale conformational changes and proton-transfer reaction is not yet feasible in a realistic/practical time frame. We also note this limitation already when we say that:

      “The question of whether proton binding happens in OCC or OF warrants further investigation, and indeed the co-existence of several mechanisms may be plausible here”. 

      Nonetheless, we are actively exploring approaches to treat uptake and movement of protons explicitly for future work.

      In our revision, we have expanded on our discussion of the reasoning behind employing a non-reactive approach and the limitations that imposes on what questions can be answered in this study.

      Without including the protonation as a CV, the authors tried to model the free energy changes from multiple FECs using different charge states of H87 and D342. This is a practical workaround, and the conclusion drawn (the OCC→ OF transition is downhill with protonated H87 and D342) seems valid. However, I don't think the OF states with different charge states (OF/H87D342-, OF/H87HD342-, OF/H87D342H, and OF/H87HD342H) are equally stable, as plotted in Figure 3b. The concern extends to other cases like Figures 4b, S7, S10, S12, S15, and S16. While it may be appropriate to match all four OF states in the free energy plot for comparison purposes, the authors should clarify this to ensure readers are not misled.

      The reviewer is correct in their assessment that the aligning of PMFs in these figures is arbitrary; no relative free energies of the PMFs to each other can be estimated without explicit free energy calculations at least of protonation events at the end state basins. The PMFs in our figures are merely superimposed for illustrating the differences in shape between the obtained profiles in each condition, as discussed in the text, and we now make this clear in the appropriate figure captions.

      b) Regarding the substrate impact, it appears that the authors assumed fixed protonation states. I am afraid this is not necessarily the case. Variations in PepT2 stoichiometry suggest that substrates likely participate in proton transport, like the Phe-Ala (2:1) and Phe-Gln (1:1) dipeptides mentioned in the introduction. And it is not rigorous to assume that the N- and C-termini of a peptide do not protonate/deprotonate when transported. I think the authors should explicitly state that the current work and the proposed mechanism (Figure 8) are based on the assumption that the substrates do not uptake/release proton(s).

      This is indeed an assumption inherent in the current work. While we do “speculate that the proton movement processes may happen as an ensemble of different mechanisms, and potentially occur contemporaneously with the conformational change” we do not in the previous version indicate explicitly that this may involve the substrate. We make clear the assumption and this possibility in the revised version of our paper. Indeed, as we discuss, there is some evidence in our PMFs of an additional protonation site not considered thus far, which may or may not be the substrate. We now make note of this point in the revised manuscript.

      As for what information can be drawn from the given experimental stoichiometries, we note in our paper that “a 2:1 stoichiometry was reported for the neutral di-peptide D-Phe-L-Ala and 3:1 for anionic D-Phe-L-Glu. (Chen et al., 1999) Alternatively, Fei et al. (1999) have found 1:1 stoichiometries for either of D-Phe-L-Gln (neutral), D-Phe-L-Glu (anionic), and D-Phe-L-Lys (cationic).” 

      We do not assume that it is our place to arbit among the apparent discrepancies in the experimental data here, although we believe that our assumed 2:1 stoichiometry is additionally “motivated also by our computational results that indicate distinct and additive roles played by two protons in the conformational cycle mechanism”.

      (2) I have more serious concerns about the CpHMD employed in the study.

      a) The CpHMD in AMBER is not rigorous for membrane simulations. The underlying generalized Born model fails to consider the membrane environment when updating charge states. In other words, the CpHMD places a membrane protein in a water environment to judge if changes in charge states are energetically favorable. While this might not be a big issue for peripheral residues of membrane proteins, it is likely unphysical for internal residues like the ExxER motif. As I recall, the developers have never used the method to study membrane proteins themselves. The only CpHMD variant suitable for membrane proteins is the membrane-enabled hybrid-solvent CpHMD in CHARMM. While I do not expect the authors to redo their CpHMD simulations, I do hope the authors recognize the limitations of their method.

      We discuss the limitations of the AMBER CpHMD implementation in the revised version. However, despite that, we believe we have in fact provided sufficient grounds for our conclusion that substrate binding affects ExxER motif protonation in the following way.

      In addition to CpHMD simulations, we establish the same effect via ABFE calculations, where the substrate affinity is different at the E56 deprotonated vs protonated protein. This was figure S20 before, though in the revised version we have moved this piece of validation into a new panel of figure 6 in the main text, since it becomes more important with the CpHMD membrane problem in mind. Since the ABFE calculations are conducted with an all-atom representation of the lipids and the thermodynamic cycle closes well, it would appear that if the chosen CpHMD method has a systematic error of significant magnitude for this particular membrane protein system, there may be the benefit of error cancellation. While the calculated absolute pKa values may not be reliable, the difference made by substrate binding appears to be so, as judged by the orthogonal ABFE technique.

      Although the reviewer does “not expect the authors to redo their CpHMD simulations”, we consider that it may be helpful to the reader to share in this response some results from trials using the continuous, all-atom constant pH implementation that has recently become available in GROMACS (Aho et al 2022, https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jctc.2c00516) and can be used rigorously with membrane proteins, given its all-atom lipid representation.

      Unfortunately, when trying to titrate E56 in this CpHMD implementation, we found few protonationstate transitions taking place, and the system often got stuck in protonation state–local conformation coupled minima (which need to interconvert through rearrangements of the salt bridge network involving slow side-chain dihedral rotations in E53, E56 and R57). Author response image 1 shows this for the apo OF state, Author response image 2 shows how noisy attempts at pKa estimation from this data turn out to be, necessitating the use of a hybrid-solvent method.

      Author response image 1.

      All-atom CpHMD simulations of apo-OF PepT2. Red indicates protonated E56, blue is deprotonated.

      Author response image 2.

      Difficulty in calculating the E56 pKa value from the noisy all-atom CpHMD data shown in Author response image 1.

      b) It appears that the authors did not make the substrate (Ala-Phe dipeptide) protonatable in holosimulations. This oversight prevents a complete representation of ligand-induced protonation events, particularly given that the substrate ion pairs with hsPepT2 through its N- & C-termini. I believe it would be valuable for the authors to acknowledge this potential limitation. 

      In this study, we implicitly assumed from the outset that the substrate does not get protonated, which – as by way of response to the comment above – we now acknowledge explicitly. This potential limitation for the available mechanisms for proton transfer also applies to our investigation of the ExxER protonation states. In particular, a semi-grand canonical ensemble that takes into account the possibility of substrate C-terminus protonation may also sample states in which the substrate is protonated and oriented away from R57, thus leaving the ExxER salt bridge network in an apo-like state. The consequence would be that while the direction of shift in E56 pKa value will be the same, our CpHMD may overestimate its magnitude. It would thus be interesting to make the C-terminus protonatable for obtaining better quantitative estimates of the E56 pKa shift (as is indeed true in general for any other protein protonatable residue, though the effects are usually assumed to be negligible). We do note, however, that convergence of the CpHMD simulations would be much harder if the slow degree of freedom of substrate reorientation (which in our experience takes 10s to 100s of nanoseconds in this binding pocket) needs to be implicitly equilibrated upon protonation state transitions. We discuss such considerations in the revised paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This is an interesting manuscript that describes a series of molecular dynamics studies on the peptide transporter PepT2 (SLC15A2). They examine, in particular, the effect on the transport cycle of protonation of various charged amino acids within the protein. They then validate their conclusions by mutating two of the residues that they predict to be critical for transport in cell-based transport assays. The study suggests a series of protonation steps that are necessary for transport to occur in Petp2. Comparison with bacterial proteins from the same family shows that while the overall architecture of the proteins and likely mechanism are similar, the residues involved in the mechanism may differ. 

      Strengths: 

      This is an interesting and rigorous study that uses various state-of-the-art molecular dynamics techniques to dissect the transport cycle of PepT2 with nearly 1ms of sampling. It gives insight into the transport mechanism, investigating how the protonation of selected residues can alter the energetic barriers between various states of the transport cycle. The authors have, in general, been very careful in their interpretation of the data. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Interestingly, they suggest that there is an additional protonation event that may take place as the protein goes from occluded to inward-facing but they have not identified this residue.

      We have indeed suggested that there may be an additional protonation site involved in the conformational cycle that we have not been able to capture, which – as we discuss in our paper – might be indicated by the shapes of the OCC ↔ IF PMFs given in Figure S15. One possibility is for this to be the substrate itself (see the response to reviewer #1 above) though within the scope of this study the precise pathway by which protons move down the transporter and the exact ordering of conformational change and proton transfer reactions remains a (partially) open question. We acknowledge this, denote it with question marks in the mechanistic overview we give in Figure 8 and also “speculate that the proton movement processes may happen as an ensemble of different mechanisms, and potentially occur contemporaneously with the conformational change”.

      Some things are a little unclear. For instance, where does the state that they have defined as occluded sit on the diagram in Figure 1a? - is it truly the occluded state as shown on the diagram or does it tend to inward- or outward-facing?

      Figure 1a is a simple schematic overview intended to show which structures of PepT2 homologues are available to use in simulations. This was not meant to be a quantitative classification of states. Nonetheless, we can note that the OCC state we derived has extra- and intracellular gate opening distances (as measured by the simple CVs defined in the methods and illustrated in Figure 2a) that indicate full gate closure at both sides. In particular, although it was derived from the IF state via biased sampling, the intracellular gate opening distance in the OCC state used for our conformational change enhanced sampling was comparable to that of the OF state (ie, full closure of the gate), see Figure S2b and the grey bars therein. Therefore, we would schematically classify the OCC state to lie at the center of the diagram in Figure 1a. Furthermore, it is largely stable over triplicates of 1 μslong unbiased MD, where in 2/3 replicates the gates remain stable, and the remaining replicate there is partial opening of the intracellular gate (as shown in Figure 2 b/c under the “apo standard” condition). We comment on this in the main text by saying that “The intracellular gate, by contrast, is more flexible than the extracellular gate even in the apo, standard protonation state”, and link it to the lower barrier for transition to IF than to OF. We did this by saying that “As for the OCC↔OF transitions, these results explain the behaviour we had previously observed in the unbiased MD of Figure 2c.” We acknowledge this was not sufficiently clear and have added details to the latter sentence to help clarify better the nature of the occluded state.

      The pKa calculations and their interpretation are a bit unclear. Firstly, it is unclear whether they are using all the data in the calculations of the histograms, or just selected data and if so on what basis was this selection done. Secondly, they dismiss the pKa calculations of E53 in the outward-facing form as not being affected by peptide binding but say that E56 is when there seems to be a similar change in profile in the histograms.

      In our manuscript, we have provided two distinct analyses of the raw CpHMD data. Firstly, we analysed the data by the replicates in which our simulations were conducted (Figure 6, shown as bar plots with mean from triplicates +/- standard deviation), where we found that only the effect on E56 protonation was distinct as lying beyond the combined error bars. This analysis uses the full amount of sampling conducted for each replicate. However, since we found that the range of pKa values estimated from 10ns/window chunks was larger than the error bars obtained from the replicate analysis (Figures S17 and S18), we sought to verify our conclusion by pooling all chunk estimates and plotting histograms (Figure S19). We recover from those the effect of substrate binding on the E56 protonation state on both the OF and OCC states. However, as the reviewer has pointed out (something we did not discuss in our original manuscript), there is a shift in the pKa of E53 of the OF state only. In fact, the trend is also apparent in the replicate-based analysis of Figure 6, though here the larger error bars overlap. In our revision, we added more details of these analyses for clarity (including more detailed figure captions regarding the data used in Figure 6) as well as a discussion of the partial effect on the E53 pKa value. 

      We do not believe, however, that our key conclusions are negatively affected. If anything, a further effect on the E53 pKa which we had not previously commented on (since we saw the evidence as weaker, pertaining to only one conformational state) would strengthen the case for an involvement of the ExxER motif in ligand coupling.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary: 

      Lichtinger et al. have used an extensive set of molecular dynamics (MD) simulations to study the conformational dynamics and transport cycle of an important member of the proton-coupled oligopeptide transporters (POTs), namely SLC15A2 or PepT2. This protein is one of the most wellstudied mammalian POT transporters that provides a good model with enough insight and structural information to be studied computationally using advanced enhanced sampling methods employed in this work. The authors have used microsecond-level MD simulations, constant-PH MD, and alchemical binding free energy calculations along with cell-based transport assay measurements; however, the most important part of this work is the use of enhanced sampling techniques to study the conformational dynamics of PepT2 under different conditions. 

      The study attempts to identify links between conformational dynamics and chemical events such as proton binding, ligand-protein interactions, and intramolecular interactions. The ultimate goal is of course to understand the proton-coupled peptide and drug transport by PepT2 and homologous transporters in the solute carrier family. 

      Some of the key results include:

      (1) Protonation of H87 and D342 initiate the occluded (Occ) to the outward-facing (OF) state transition. 

      (2) In the OF state, through engaging R57, substrate entry increases the pKa value of E56 and thermodynamically facilitates the movement of protons further down. 

      (3) E622 is not only essential for peptide recognition but also its protonation facilitates substrate release and contributes to the intracellular gate opening. In addition, cell-based transport assays show that mutation of residues such as H87 and D342 significantly decreases transport activity as expected from simulations. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) This is an extensive MD-based study of PepT2, which is beyond the typical MD studies both in terms of the sheer volume of simulations as well as the advanced methodology used. The authors have not limited themselves to one approach and have appropriately combined equilibrium MD with alchemical free energy calculations, constant-pH MD, and geometry-based free energy calculations. Each of these 4 methods provides a unique insight regarding the transport mechanism of PepT2.

      (2) The authors have not limited themselves to computational work and have performed experiments as well. The cell-based transport assays clearly establish the importance of the residues that have been identified as significant contributors to the transport mechanism using simulations.

      (3) The conclusions made based on the simulations are mostly convincing and provide useful information regarding the proton pathway and the role of important residues in proton binding, protein-ligand interaction, and conformational changes.

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Some of the statements made in the manuscript are not convincing and do not abide by the standards that are mostly followed in the manuscript. For instance, on page 4, it is stated that "the K64-D317 interaction is formed in only ≈ 70% of MD frames and therefore is unlikely to contribute much to extracellular gate stability." I do not agree that 70% is negligible. Particularly, Figure S3 does not include the time series so it is not clear whether the 30% of the time where the salt bridge is broken is in the beginning or the end of simulations. For instance, it is likely that the salt bridge is not initially present and then it forms very strongly. Of course, this is just one possible scenario but the point is that Figure S3 does not rule out the possibility of a significant role for the K64-D317 salt bridge. 

      The reviewer is right to point out that the statement and Figure S3 as they were do not adequately support our decision to exclude the K64-D317 salt-bridge in our further investigations. The violin plot shown in Figure S3, visualised as pooled data from unbiased 1 μs triplicates, did indeed not rule out a scenario where the salt bridge only formed late in our simulations (or only in some replicates), but then is stable. Therefore, in our revision, we include the appropriate time-series of the salt bridge distances, showing how K64-D317 is initially stable but then falls apart in replicate 1, and is transiently formed and disengaged across the trajectories in replicates 2 and 3. We have also remade the data for this plot as we discovered a bug in the relevant analysis script that meant the D170-K642 distance was not calculated accurately. The results are however almost identical, and our conclusions remain.

      (2) Similarly, on page 4, it is stated that "whether by protonation or mutation - the extracellular gate only opens spontaneously when both the H87 interaction network and D342-R206 are perturbed (Figure S5)." I do not agree with this assessment. The authors need to be aware of the limitations of this approach. Consider "WT H87-prot" and "D342A H87-prot": when D342 residue is mutated, in one out of 3 simulations, we see the opening of the gate within 1 us. When D342 residue is not mutated we do not see the opening in any of the 3 simulations within 1 us. It is quite likely that if rather than 3 we have 10 simulations or rather than 1 us we have 10 us simulations, the 0/3 to 1/3 changes significantly. I do not find this argument and conclusion compelling at all.

      If the conclusions were based on that alone, then we would agree.  However, this section of work covers merely the observations of the initial unbiased simulations which we go on to test/explore with enhanced sampling in the rest of the paper, and which then lead us to the eventual conclusions.

      Figure S5 shows the results from triplicate 1 μs-long trajectories as violin-plot histograms of the extracellular gate opening distance, also indicating the first and final frames of the trajectories as connected by an arrow for orientation – a format we chose for intuitively comparing 48 trajectories in one plot. The reviewer reads the plot correctly when they analyse the “WT H87-prot” vs “D342A H87-prot” conditions. In the former case, no spontaneous opening in unbiased MD is taking place, whereas when D342 is mutated to alanine in addition to H87 protonation, we see spontaneous transition in 1 out of 3 replicates.  However, the reviewer does not seem to interpret the statement in question in our paper (“the extracellular gate only opens spontaneously when both the H87 interaction network and D342-R206 are perturbed”) in the way we intended it to be understood. We merely want to note here a correlation in the unbiased dataset we collected at this stage, and indeed the one spontaneous opening in the case comparison picked out by the reviewer is in the condition where both the H87 interaction network and D342-R206 are perturbed. In noting this we do not intend to make statistically significant statements from the limited dataset. Instead, we write that “these simulations show a large amount of stochasticity and drawing clean conclusions from the data is difficult”. We do however stand by our assessment that from this limited data we can “already appreciate a possible mechanism where protons move down the transporter pore” – a hypothesis we investigate more rigorously with enhanced sampling in the rest of the paper. We have revised the section in question to make clearer that the unbiased MD is only meant to give an initial hypothesis here to be investigated in more detail in the following sections. In doing so, we also incorporate, as we had not done before, the case (not picked out by the reviewer here but concerning the same figure) of S321A & H87 prot. In the third replicate, this shows partial gate opening towards the end of the unbiased trajectory (despite D342 not being affected), highlighting further the stochastic nature that makes even clear correlative conclusions difficult to draw.

      (3) While the MEMENTO methodology is novel and interesting, the method is presented as flawless in the manuscript, which is not true at all. It is stated on Page 5 with regards to the path generated by MEMENTO that "These paths are then by definition non-hysteretic." I think this is too big of a claim to say the paths generated by MEMENTO are non-hysteretic by definition. This claim is not even mentioned in the original MEMENTO paper. What is mentioned is that linear interpolation generates a hysteresis-free path by definition. There are two important problems here: (a) MEMENTO uses the linear interpolation as an initial step but modifies the intermediates significantly later so they are no longer linearly interpolated structures and thus the path is no longer hysteresisfree; (b) a more serious problem is the attribution of by-definition hysteresis-free features to the linearly interpolated states. This is based on conflating the hysteresis-free and unique concepts. The hysteresis in MD-based enhanced sampling is related to the presence of barriers in orthogonal space. For instance, one may use a non-linear interpolation of any type and get a unique pathway, which could be substantially different from the one coming from the linear interpolation. None of these paths will be hysteresis-free necessarily once subjected to MD-based enhanced sampling techniques.

      We certainly do not intend to claim that the MEMENTO method is flawless. The concern the reviewer raises around the statement "These paths are then by definition non-hysteretic" is perhaps best addressed by a clarification of the language used and considering how MEMENTO is applied in this work. 

      Hysteresis in the most general sense denotes the dependence of a system on its history, or – more specifically – the lagging behind of the system state with regards to some physical driver (for example the external field in magnetism, whence the term originates). In the context of biased MD and enhanced sampling, hysteresis commonly denotes the phenomenon where a path created by a biased dynamics method along a certain collective variable lags behind in phase space in slow orthogonal degrees of freedom (see Figure 1 in Lichtinger and Biggin 2023, https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.jctc.3c00140). When used to generate free energy profiles, this can manifest as starting state bias, where the conformational state that was used to seed the biased dynamics appears lower in free energy than alternative states. Figure S6 shows this effect on the PepT2 system for both steered MD (heavy atom RMSD CV) + umbrella sampling (tip CV) and metadynamics (tip CV). There is, in essence, a coupled problem: without an appropriate CV (which we did not have to start with here), path generation that is required for enhanced sampling displays hysteresis, but the refinement of CVs is only feasible when paths connecting the true phase space basins of the two conformations are available. MEMENTO helps solve this issue by reconstructing protein conformations along morphing paths which perform much better than steered MD paths with respect to giving consistent free energy profiles (see Figure S7 and the validation cases in the MEMENTO paper), even if the same CV is used in umbrella sampling. 

      There are still differences between replicates in those PMFs, indicating slow conformational flexibility propagated from end-state sampling through MEMENTO. We use this to refine the CVs further with dimensionality reduction (see the Method section and Figure S8), before moving to 2D-umbrella sampling (figure 3). Here, we think, the reviewer’s point seems to bear. The MEMENTO paths are ‘non-hysteretic by definition’ with respect to given end states in the sense that they connect (by definition) the correct conformations at both end-states (unlike steered MD), which in enhanced sampling manifests as the absence of the strong starting-state bias we had previously observed (Figure S7 vs S6). They are not, however, hysteresis-free with regards to how representative of the end-state conformational flexibility the structures given to MEMENTO really were, which is where the iterative CV design and combination of several MEMENTO paths in 2D-PMFs comes in. 

      We also cannot make a direct claim about whether in the transition region the MEMENTO paths might be separated from the true (lower free energy) transition paths by slow orthogonal degrees of freedom, which may conceivably result in overestimated barrier heights separating two free energy basins. We cannot guarantee that this is not the case, but neither in our MEMENTO validation examples nor in this work have we encountered any indications of a problem here.

      We hope that the reviewer will be satisfied by our revision, where we replace the wording in question by a statement that the MEMENTO paths do not suffer from hysteresis that is otherwise incurred as a consequence of not reaching the correct target state in the biased run (in some orthogonal degrees of freedom).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Figure S1: it would be useful to label the panels.

      We have now done this.

      At the bottom of page 4, it is written that "the extracellular gate only opens spontaneously when both the H87 interaction network and D342-R206 are perturbed (Figure S5)." But it is hard to interpret that from the figure.  

      See also our response to reviewer #3. We have revised the wording of this statement, and also highlight in Figure S5 the crucial runs we are referring to, in order to make them easier to discern.

      At the bottom of page 5, and top of page 6, there is a lot of "other" information shown, which is inserted for the record - this is a bit glossed over and hard to follow.

      The “other” information refers to further conditions we had calculated PMFs for and that gave some insight, but which were secondary for drawing our key conclusions. We thank the reviewer for their feedback that this section needs clarification. We have revised this paragraph to make it easier to follow and highlight better the conclusions we draw form the data.

      In Figure 7 it looks as though the asterisks have shifted.

      We are indebted to the reviewer for spotting this error, the asterisks are indeed shifted one bar to the right of their intended position. The revised version fixes this issue.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor points: In Figure 1a, The 7PMY label and arrow are slightly misplaced.

      Figure 1a is a schematic diagram to show the available structures of PepT2 homologues (see also the response to reviewer #2 above). The 7PMY label placement is intentional to indicate a partially occluded inwards-facing state. As we write in the figure caption: “Intermediate positions between states indicate partial gate opening”.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the latest reviews.

      A revised version of the manuscript models "slope-based" excitability changes in addition to "threshold-based" changes. This serves to address the above concern that as constructed here changes in excitability threshold are not distinguishable from changes in input. However, it remains unclear what the model would do should only a subset of neurons receive a given, fixed input. In that case, are excitability changes sufficient to induce drift? This remains an important question that is not addressed by the paper in its current form.

      Thank you for this important point. In the simulation of two memories (Fig. S6), we stimulated half of the neural population for each of the two memories. We therefore also showed that drift happens when only a subset of neuron was simulated.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Current experimental work reveals that brain areas implicated in episodic and spatial memory have a dynamic code, in which activity r imulated networks for epresenting familiar events/locations changes over time. This paper shows that such reconfiguration is consistent with underlying changes in the excitability of cells in the population, which ties these observations to a physiological mechanism.

      Delamare et al. use a recurrent network model to consider the hypothesis that slow fluctuations in intrinsic excitability, together with spontaneous reactivations of ensembles, may cause the structure of the ensemble to change, consistent with the phenomenon of representational drift. The paper focuses on three main findings from their model: (1) fluctuations in intrinsic excitability lead to drift, (2) this drift has a temporal structure, and (3) a readout neuron can track the drift and continue to decode the memory. This paper is relevant and timely, and the work addresses questions of both a potential mechanism (fluctuations in intrinsic excitability) and purpose (time-stamping memories) of drift.

      The model used in this study consists of a pool of 50 all-to-all recurrently connected excitatory neurons with weights changing according to a Hebbian rule. All neurons receive the same input during stimulation, as well as global inhibition. The population has heterogeneous excitability, and each neuron's excitability is constant over time apart from a transient increase on a single day. The neurons are divided into ensembles of 10 neurons each, and on each day, a different ensemble receives a transient increase in the excitability of each of its neurons, with each neuron experiencing the same amplitude of increase. Each day for four days, repetitions of a binary stimulus pulse are applied to every neuron.

      The modeling choices focus in on the parameter of interest-the excitability-and other details are generally kept as straightforward as possible. That said, I wonder if certain aspects may be overly simple. The extent of the work already performed, however, does serve the intended purpose, and so I think it would be sufficient for the authors to comment on these choices rather than to take more space in this paper to actually implement these choices. What might happen were more complex modeling choices made? What is the justification for the choices that are made in the present work?

      The two specific modeling choices I question are (1) the excitability dynamics and (2) the input stimulus. The ensemble-wide synchronous and constant-amplitude excitability increase, followed by a return to baseline, seems to be a very simplified picture of the dynamics of intrinsic excitability. At the very least, justification for this simplified picture would benefit the reader, and I would be interested in the authors' speculation about how a more complex and biologically realistic dynamics model might impact the drift in their network model. Similarly, the input stimulus being binary means that, on the singleneuron level, the only type of drift that can occur is a sort of drop-in/drop-out drift; this choice excludes the possibility of a neuron maintaining significant tuning to a stimulus but changing its preferred value. How would the use of a continuous input variable influence the results.

      (1) In our model, neurons tend to compete for allocation to the memory ensemble: neurons with higher excitability tend to be preferentially allocated and neurons with lower excitability do not respond to the stimulus. Because relative, but not absolute excitability biases this competition, we suggest that the exact distribution of excitability would not impact the results qualitatively. On the other hand, the results might vary if excitability was considered dependent on the activity of the neurons as previously reported experimentally (Cai 2016, Rachid 2016, Pignatelli 2019). An increase in excitability following neural activity might induce higher correlation among ensembles on consecutive days, decreasing the drift.

      (2) We thank the reviewer for this very good point. Indeed, two recent studies (Geva 2023 , Khatib 2023) have highlighted distinct mechanisms for a drift of the mean firing rate and the tuning curve. We extended the last part of the discussion to include this point: “Finally, we intended to model drift in the firing rates, as opposed to a drift in the turning curve of the neurons. Recent studies suggest that drifts in the mean firing rate and tuning curve arise from two different mechanisms [33, 34]. Experience drives a drift in neurons turning curve while the passage of time drives a drift in neurons firing rate. In this sense, our study is consistent with these findings by providing a possible mechanism for a drift in the mean firing rates of the neurons driven a dynamical excitability. Our work suggests that drift can depend on any experience having an impact on excitability dynamics such as exercise as previously shown experimentally [9, 35] but also neurogenesis [9, 31, 36], sleep [37] or increase in dopamine level [38]”

      Result (1): Fluctuations in intrinsic excitability induce drift

      The two choices highlighted above appear to lead to representations that never recruit the neurons in the population with the lowest baseline excitability (Figure 1b: it appears that only 10 neurons ever show high firing rates) and produce networks with very strong bidirectional coupling between this subset of neurons and weak coupling elsewhere (Figure 1d). This low recruitment rate need may not necessarily be problematic, but it stands out as a point that should at least be commented on. The fact that only 10 neurons (20% of the population) are ever recruited in a representation also raises the question of what would happen if the model were scaled up to include more neurons.

      This is a very good point. To test how the model depends on the network size, we plotted the drift index against the size of the ensemble. With this current implementation, we did not observe a significant correlation between the drift rate and size of the initial ensemble (Figure S2).

      Author response image 1.

      The rate of the drift does not depend on the size of the engram. Drift rate against the size of the original engram. Each dot shows one simulation (Methods). n = 100 simulations.

      Result (2): The observed drift has a temporal structure

      The authors then demonstrate that the drift has a temporal structure (i.e., that activity is informative about the day on which it occurs), with methods inspired by Rubin et al. (2015). Rubin et al. (2015) compare single-trial activity patterns on a given session with full-session activity patterns from each session. In contrast, Delamare et al. here compare full-session patterns with baseline excitability (E = 0) patterns. This point of difference should be motivated. What does a comparison to this baseline excitability activity pattern tell us? The ordinal decoder, which decodes the session order, gives very interesting results: that an intermediate amplitude E of excitability increase maximizes this decoder's performance. This point is also discussed well by the authors. As a potential point of further exploration, the use of baseline excitability patterns in the day decoder had me wondering how the ordinal decoder would perform with these baseline patterns.

      This is a good point. Here, we aimed at dissociating the role of excitability from the one of the recurrent currents. We introduced a time decoder that compares the pattern with baseline excitability (E = 0), in order to test whether the temporal information was encoded in the ensemble i.e. in the recurrent weights. By contrast, because the neural activity is by construction biased towards excitability, a time decoder performed on the full session would work in a trivial way.

      Result (3): A readout neuron can track drift

      The authors conclude their work by connecting a readout neuron to the population with plastic weights evolving via a Hebbian rule. They show that this neuron can track the drifting ensemble by adjusting its weights. These results are shown very neatly and effectively and corroborate existing work that they cite very clearly.

      Overall, this paper is well-organized, offers a straightforward model of dynamic intrinsic excitability, and provides relevant results with appropriate interpretations. The methods could benefit from more justification of certain modeling choices, and/or an exploration (either speculative or via implementation) of what would happen with more complex choices. This modeling work paves the way for further explorations of how intrinsic excitability fluctuations influence drifting representations.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this computational study, Delamare et al identify slow neuronal excitability as one mechanism underlying representational drift in recurrent neuronal networks and that the drift is informative about the temporal structure of the memory and when it has been formed. The manuscript is very well written and addresses a timely as well as important topic in current neuroscience namely the mechanisms that may underlie representational drift.

      The study is based on an all-to-all recurrent neuronal network with synapses following Hebbian plasticity rules. On the first day, a cue-related representation is formed in that network and on the next 3 days it is recalled spontaneously or due to a memory-related cue. One major observation is that representational drift emerges day-by-day based on intrinsic excitability with the most excitable cells showing highest probability to replace previously active members of the assembly. By using a daydecoder, the authors state that they can infer the order at which the reactivation of cell assemblies happened but only if the excitability state was not too high. By applying a read-out neuron, the authors observed that this cell can track the drifting ensemble which is based on changes of the synaptic weights across time. The only few questions which emerged and could be addressed either theoretically or in the discussion are as follows:

      1. Would the similar results be obtained if not all-to-all recurrent connections would have been molded but more realistic connectivity profiles such as estimated for CA1 and CA3?

      This is a very interesting point. We performed further simulations to show that the results are not dependent on the exact structure of the network. In particular, we show that all-to-all connectivity is not required to observe a drift of the ensemble. We found similar results when the recurrent weights matrix was made sparse (Fig. S4a-c, Methods). Similarly to all-to-all connectivity, we found that the ensemble is informative about its temporal history (Fig. S4d) and that an output neuron can decode the ensemble continuously (Fig. S4e).

      Author response image 2.

      Sparse recurrent connectivity shows similar drifting behavior as all-to-all connectivity. The same simulation protocol as Fig. 1 was used while the recurrent weights matrix was made 50% sparse (Methods). a) Firing rates of the neurons across time. The red traces correspond to neurons belonging to the first assembly, namely that have a firing rate higher than the active threshold after the first stimulation. The black bars show the stimulation and the dashed line shows the active threshold. b) Recurrent weights matrices after each of the four stimuli show the drifting assembly. c) Correlation of the patterns of activity between the first day and every other days. d) Student's test t-value of the ordinal time decoder, for the real (blue) and shuffled (orange) data and for different amplitudes of excitability E. e) Center of mass of the distribution of the output weights (Methods) across days. c-e) Data are shown as mean ± s.e.m. for n = 10 simulations.

      1. How does the number of excited cells that could potentially contribute to an engram influence the representational drift and the decoding quality?

      This is indeed a very good question. We did not observe a significant correlation between the drift rate and size of the initial ensemble (Fig. S2).

      Author response image 3.

      The rate of the drift does not depend on the size of the engram. Drift rate against the size of the original engram. Each dot shows one simulation (Methods). n = 100 simulations.

      1. How does the rate of the drift influence the quality of readout from the readout-out neuron?

      We thank the reviewer for this interesting question. We introduced a measure of the “read-out quality” and plotted this value against the rate of the drift. We found a small correlation between the two quantities. Indeed, the read-out quality decreases with the rate of the drift.

      Author response image 4.

      The quality of the read-out decreases with the rate of the drift. Read-out quality computed on the firing rate of the output neuron against the rate of the drift (Methods). Each dot shows one simulation. n = 100 simulations.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The authors explore an important question concerning the underlying mechanism of representational drift, which despite intense recent interest remains obscure. The paper explores the intriguing hypothesis that drift may reflect changes in the intrinsic excitability of neurons. The authors set out to provide theoretical insight into this potential mechanism.

      They construct a rate model with all-to-all recurrent connectivity, in which recurrent synapses are governed by a standard Hebbian plasticity rule. This network receives a global input, constant across all neurons, which can be varied with time. Each neuron also is driven by an "intrinsic excitability" bias term, which does vary across cells. The authors study how activity in the network evolves as this intrinsic excitability term is changed.

      They find that after initial stimulation of the network, those neurons where the excitability term is set high become more strongly connected and are in turn more responsive to the input. Each day the subset of neurons with high intrinsic excitability is changed, and the network's recurrent synaptic connectivity and responsiveness gradually shift, such that the new high intrinsic excitability subset becomes both more strongly activated by the global input and also more strongly recurrently connected. These changes result in drift, reflected by a gradual decrease across time in the correlation of the neuronal population vector response to the stimulus.

      The authors are able to build a classifier that decodes the "day" (i.e. which subset of neurons had high intrinsic excitability) with perfect accuracy. This is despite the fact that the excitability bias during decoding is set to 0 for all neurons, and so the decoder is really detecting those neurons with strong recurrent connectivity, and in turn strong responses to the input. The authors show that it is also possible to decode the order in which different subsets of neurons were given high intrinsic excitability on previous "days". This second result depends on the extent by which intrinsic excitability was increased: if the increase in intrinsic excitability was either too high or too low, it was not possible to read out any information about past ordering of excitability changes.

      Finally, using another Hebbian learning rule, the authors show that an output neuron, whose activity is a weighted sum of the activity of all neurons in the network, is able to read out the activity of the network. What this means specifically, is that although the set of neurons most active in the network changes, the output neuron always maintains a higher firing rate than a neuron with randomly shuffled synaptic weights, because the output neuron continuously updates its weights to sample from the highly active population at any given moment. Thus, the output neuron can readout a stable memory despite drift.

      Strengths:

      The authors are clear in their description of the network they construct and in their results. They convincingly show that when they change their "intrinsic excitability term", upon stimulation, the Hebbian synapses in their network gradually evolve, and the combined synaptic connectivity and altered excitability result in drifting patterns of activity in response to an unchanging input (Fig. 1, Fig. 2a). Furthermore, their classification analyses (Fig. 2) show that information is preserved in the network, and their readout neuron successfully tracks the active cells (Fig. 3). Finally, the observation that only a specific range of excitability bias values permits decoding of the temporal structure of the history of intrinsic excitability (Fig. 2f and Figure S1) is interesting, and as the authors point out, not trivial.

      Weaknesses:

      1. The way the network is constructed, there is no formal difference between what the authors call "input", Δ(t), and what they call "intrinsic excitability" Ɛ_i(t) (see Equation 3). These are two separate terms that are summed (Eq. 3) to define the rate dynamics of the network. The authors could have switched the names of these terms: Δ(t) could have been considered a global "intrinsic excitability term" that varied with time and Ɛ_i(t) could have been the external input received by each neuron i in the network. In that case, the paper would have considered the consequence of "slow fluctuations of external input" rather than "slow fluctuations of intrinsic excitability", but the results would have been the same. The difference is therefore semantic. The consequence is that this paper is not necessarily about "intrinsic excitability", rather it considers how a Hebbian network responds to changes in excitatory drive, regardless of whether those drives are labeled "input" or "intrinsic excitability".

      This is a very good point. We performed further simulations to model “slope-based”, instead of “threshold-based”, changes in excitability (Fig. S5a, Methods). In this new definition of excitability, we changed the slope of the activation function, which is initially sampled from a random distribution. By introducing a varying excitability, we found very similar results than when excitability was varied as the threshold of the activation function (Fig. S5b-d). We also found similarly that the ensemble is informative about its temporal history (Fig. S5e) and that an output neuron can decode the ensemble continuously (Fig. S5f).

      Author response image 5.

      Change of excitability as a variable slope of the input-output function shows similar drifting behavior as considering a change in the threshold. The same simulation protocol as Fig. 1 was used while the excitability changes were modeled as a change in the activation function slope (Methods). a) Schema showing two different ways of defining excitability, as a threshold (top) or slope (bottom) of the activation function. Each line shows one neuron and darker lines correspond to neurons with increased excitability. b) Firing rates of the neurons across time. The red traces correspond to neurons belonging to the first assembly, namely that have a firing rate higher than the active threshold after the first stimulation. The black bars show the stimulation and the dashed line shows the active threshold. c) Recurrent weights matrices after each of the four stimuli show the drifting assembly. d) Correlation of the patterns of activity between the first day and every other days. e) Student's test t-value of the ordinal time decoder, for the real (blue) and shuffled (orange) data and for different amplitudes of excitability E. f) Center of mass of the distribution of the output weights (Methods) across days. d-f) Data are shown as mean ± s.e.m. for n = 10 simulations.

      1. Given how the learning rule that defines input to the readout neuron is constructed, it is trivial that this unit responds to the most active neurons in the network, more so than a neuron assigned random weights. What would happen if the network included more than one "memory"? Would it be possible to construct a readout neuron that could classify two distinct patterns? Along these lines, what if there were multiple, distinct stimuli used to drive this network, rather than the global input the authors employ here? Does the system, as constructed, have the capacity to provide two distinct patterns of activity in response to two distinct inputs?

      This is an interesting point. In order to model multiple memories, we introduced non-uniform feedforward inputs, defining different “contexts” (Methods). We adapted our model so that two contexts target two random sub-populations in the network. We also introduced a second output neuron to decode the second memory. The simulation protocol was adapted so that each of the two contexts are stimulated every day (Fig. S6a). We found that the network is able to store two ensembles that drift independently (Fig. S6 and S7a). We were also able to decode temporal information from the patterns of activity of both ensembles (Fig. S7b). Finally, both memories could be decoded independently using two output neurons (Fig. S7c and d).

      Author response image 6.

      Two distinct ensembles can be encoded and drift independently. a) and b) Firing rates of the neurons across time. The red traces in panel b) correspond to neurons belonging to the first assembly and the green traces to the second assembly on the first day. They correspond to neurons having a firing rate higher than the active threshold after the first stimulation of each assembly. The black bars show the stimulation and the dashed line shows the active threshold. c) Recurrent weights matrices after each of the eight stimuli showing the drifting of the first (top) and second (bottom) assembly.

      Author response image 7.

      The two ensembles are informative about their temporal history and can be decoded using two output neurons. a) Correlation of the patterns of activity between the first day and every other days, for the first assembly (red) and the second assembly (green). b) Student's test t-value of the ordinal time decoder, for the first (red, left) and second ensemble (green, right) for different amplitudes of excitability E. Shuffled data are shown in orange. c) Center of mass of the distribution of the output weights (Methods) across days for the first (w?ut , red) and second (W20L't , green) ensemble. a-c) Data are shown as mean ± s.e.m. for n = 10 simulations. d) Output neurons firing rate across time for the first ensemble (Yl, top) and the second ensemble (h, bottom). The red and green traces correspond to the real output. The dark blue, light blue and yellow traces correspond to the cases where the output weights were randomly shuffled for every time points after presentation of the first, second and third stimulus, respectively.

      Impact:

      Defining the potential role of changes in intrinsic excitability in drift is fundamental. Thus, this paper represents a potentially important contribution. Unfortunately, given the way the network employed here is constructed, it is difficult to tease apart the specific contribution of changing excitability from changing input. This limits the interpretability and applicability of the results.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      In addition to our responses to reviewer suggestions below, a minor bug in the calculation of CAIS was brought to our attention by a reader of our preprint. We have corrected this bug and rerun analyses, whose results became slightly stronger as noise was removed. While we were doing that, someone pointed out to us that our equations were almost the same as Kullback-Leibler divergence, which explains why our metric performed so well. We have made the numerically trivial (see before vs. after figure below) mathematical change to use Kullback-Leibler divergence instead, and now have a better story, with a solid basis in information theory, as to why CAIS works.

      Author response image 1.

      Unfortunately, we discovered a second bug that caused our PIC correction code to fail to perform the needed correction for phylogenetic confounding. The previously reported correlation between CAIS (or ENC) with body mass no longer survives PIC-correction. We have therefore removed this analysis from the manuscript. Our story now stands more on the theoretical basis of CAIS and ENC than on the post facto validation than it previously did. We now also present CAIS and ENC on a more equal footing. ENC results are slightly stronger, while CAIS has the complementary advantage of correcting for amino acid frequencies.

      The work involved in these changes, as well as some of the responses to reviews below, justifies changing the second author into a co-first author, and adding an additional coauthor (Hanon McShea) who discovered the second bug.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      In this manuscript, the authors propose a new codon adaptation metric, Codon Adaptation Index of Species (CAIS), which they present as an easily obtainable proxy for effective population size. To permit between-species comparisons, they control for both amino acid frequencies and genomic GC content, which distinguishes their approach from existing ones. Having confirmed that CAIS negatively correlates with vertebrate body mass, as would be expected if small-bodied species with larger effective populations experience more efficient selection on codon usage, they then examine the relationship between CAIS and intrinsic structural disorder in proteins. 

      The idea of a robust species-level measure of codon adaptation is interesting. If CAIS is indeed a reliable proxy for the effectiveness of selection, it could be useful to analyze species without reliable life history- or mutation rate data (which will apply to many of the genomes becoming available in the near future). 

      A key question is whether CAIS, in fact, measures adaptation at the codon level. Unfortunately, CAIS is only validated indirectly by confirming a negative correlation with body mass. As a result, the observations about structural disorder are difficult to evaluate. 

      As discussed in the preamble above, we have replaced the body mass validation with a stronger theoretical basis in information theory.

      A potential problem is that differences in GC between species are not independent of life history. Effective population size can drive compositional differences due to the effects of GC-biased gene conversion (gBGC). As noted by Galtier et al. (2018), genomic GC correlates negatively with body mass in mammals and birds. It would therefore be important to examine how gBGC might affect CAIS, and to what extent it could explain the relationship between CAIS and body mass. 

      Suppose that gBGC drives an increase in GC that is most pronounced at 3rd codon positions in highrecombination regions in small-bodied species. In this case, could observed codon usage depart more strongly from expectations calculated from overall genomic GC in small vertebrates compared to large ones? The authors also report that correcting for local intergenic GC was unsuccessful, based on the lack of a significant negative relationship with body mass (Figure 3D). In principle, this could also be consistent with local GC providing a relatively more appropriate baseline in regions with high recombination rates. Considering these scenarios would clarify what exactly CAIS is capturing. 

      Figure 3 (previously Supplementary Figures S5A and S5B) shows that CAIS is negligibly correlated with %GC (not robust to multiple comparisons correction), and ENC not at all. We believe this is evidence against the possibility brought up by the reviewer, i.e. that Ne might affect gBGC (and hence global %GC). This relationship, if present, could act as a confounding effect, but it is not present within our species dataset. 

      Note that we expect our genomic-GC-based codon usage expectations to reflect unchecked gBGC in an average genomic region, independently of whether that species has high or low Ne. Our working model is that non-selective forces, include gBGC as well as conventional mutation biases, vary among species, and that they rather than selection determine each species’ genome-wide %GC. By correcting for genome-wide %GC, CAIS and ENC correct for both mutation bias and gBGC, in order to isolate the effects of selection.

      This argument, based on an average genomic region, is vulnerable to gene-rich genomic regions having differentially higher recombination rates and hence GC-biased gene conversion. However, we do not see the expected positive correlation between |𝐥𝐨𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐆𝐂 - global GC| and CAIS (see new Figure 5), again suggesting that gene conversion strength is not a confounding factor acting on CAIS.

      Given claims about "exquisitely adapted species", the case for using CAIS as a measure of codon adaptation would also be stronger if a relationship with gene expression could be demonstrated. RSCU is expected to be higher in highly expressed genes. Is there any evidence that the equivalent GCcontrolled measure behaves similarly? 

      Correlations with gene expression are outside the scope of the current work, which is focused on producing and exploiting a single value of codon adaptation per species. It is indeed possible that our general approach of using Kullback-Leibler divergence to correct for genomic %GC could be useful in future work investigating differences among genes.  

      The manuscript is overall easy to follow, though some additional context may be helpful for the general reader. A more detailed discussion of how this work compares to the approach taken by Galtier et al. (2018), which accounted for GC content and gBGC when examining codon preferences, would be appropriate, for example. In addition, it would have been useful to mention past work that has attempted to explicitly quantify selection on codon usage. 

      One key difference between our work and that of Galtier et al. 2018 is that our approach does not rely on identifying specific codon preferences as a function of species. Our approach might therefore be robust to scenarios where different genes have different codon preferences (see Gingold et al. 2014 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2014.08.011). At a high level, our results are in broad agreement with those of Galtier et al., 2018, who found that gBGC affected all animal species, regardless of Ne, and who like us, found that the degree of selection on codon usage depended on Ne.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      ## Summary 

      The goal of the authors in this study is to develop a more reliable approach for quantifying codon usage such that it is more comparable across species. Specifically, the authors wish to estimate the degree of adaptive codon usage, which is potentially a general proxy for the strength of selection at the molecular level. To this end, the authors created the Codon Adaptation Index for Species (CAIS) that controls for differences in amino acid usage and GC% across species. Using their new metric, the authors find a previously unobserved negative correlation between the overall adaptiveness of codon usage and body size across 118 vertebrates. As body size is negatively correlated with effective population size and thus the general strength of natural selection, the negative correlation between CAIS and body size is expected. The authors argue this was previously unobserved due to failures of other popular metrics such as Codon Adaptation Index (CAI) and the Effective Number of Codons (ENC) to adequately control for differences in amino acid usage and GC content across species. Most surprisingly, the authors also find a positive relationship between CAIS and the overall "disorderedness" of a species protein domains. As some of these results are unexpected, which is acknowledged by the authors, I think it would be particularly beneficial to work with some simulated datasets. I think CAIS has the potential to be a valuable tool for those interested in comparing codon adaptation across species in certain situations. However, I have certain theoretical concerns about CAIS as a direct proxy for the efficiency of selection $sN_e$ when the mutation bias changes across species.  

      ## Strengths 

      (1) I appreciate that the authors recognize the potential issues of comparing CAI when amino acid usage varies and correct for this in CAIS. I think this is sometimes an under-appreciated point in the codon usage literature, as CAI is a relative measure of codon usage bias (i.e. only considers synonyms). However, the strength of natural selection on codon usage can potentially vary across amino acids, such that comparing mean CAI between protein regions with different amino acid biases may result in spurious signals of statistical significance (see Cope et al. Biochemica et Biophysica Acta - Biomembranes 2018 for a clear example of this). 

      We now cite Cope et al. as an example of how amino acid composition can act as a confounding factor.

      (2) The authors present numerous analysis using both ENC and mean CAI as a comparison to CAIS, helping given a sense of how CAIS corrects for some of the issues with these other metrics. I also enjoyed that they examined the previously unobserved relationship between codon usage bias and body size, which has bugged me ever since I saw Kessler and Dean 2014. The result comparing protein disorder to CAIS was particularly interesting and unexpected. 

      Unfortunately, our previous PIC correction code was buggy, and in fact the relationship with body size does not survive PIC correction (although it is strong prior to PIC correction). We have therefore removed it from the paper. However, the more novel result on protein disorder remains strong.

      (3) The CAIS metric presented here is generally applicable to any species that has an annotated genome with protein-coding sequences. 

      ## Weaknesses 

      (1) The main weakness of this work is that it lacks simulated data to confirm that it works as expected. This would be particularly useful for assessing the relationship between CAIS and the overall effect of protein structure disorder, which the authors acknowledge is an unexpected result. I think simulations could also allow the authors to assess how their metric performs in situations where mutation bias and natural selection act in the same direction vs. opposite directions. Additionally, although I appreciate their comparisons to ENC and mean CAI, the lack of comparison to other popular codon metrics for calculating the overall adaptiveness of a genome (e.g. dos Reis et al.'s $S$ statistic, which is a function of tRNA Adaptation Index (tAI) and ENC) may be more appropriate. Even if results are similar to $S$, CAIS has a noted advantage that it doesn't require identifying tRNA gene copy numbers or abundances, which I think are generally less readily available than genomic GC% and protein-coding sequences. 

      The main limitation of dos Reis’s test in our view is that, like the better versions of CAI, it requires comparable orthologs across species. See also the discussion below re the benefits of proteome-wide approach. We now also note the advantage of not needing tRNA gene copy numbers and abundances. 

      Simulated datasets would be great, but we think it a nice addition rather than must-have, in particular because we are skeptical about whether our understanding of all relevant processes is good enough such that simulations would add much to our more heuristic argument along the lines of Figure 2. E.g. the complications of Gingold et al. 2014 cited above are pertinent, but incorporating them would make simulations quite involved. Instead, we now have a stronger theoretical justification for CAIS grounded in information theory. We have significantly expanded discussion of Figure 2 to give a clearer idea of the conceptual underpinnings of CAIS and ENC.

      The authors mention the selection-mutation-drift equilibrium model, which underlies the basic ideas of this work (e.g. higher $N_e$ results in stronger selection on codon usage), but a more in-depth framing of CAIS in terms of this model is not given. I think this could be valuable, particularly in addressing the question "are we really estimating what we think we're estimating?" 

      Let's take a closer look at the formulation for RSCUS. From here on out, subscripts will only be used to denote the codon and it will be assumed that we are only considering the case of r = genome for some species s.

      I think what the authors are attempting to do is "divide out" the effects of mutation bias (as given by $E_i$), such that only the effects of natural selection remain, i.e. deviations from the expected frequency based on mutation bias alone represent adaptive codon usage. Consider Gilchrist et al. MBE 2015, which says that the expected frequency of codon i at selection-mutation-drift equilibrium in gene g for an amino acid with Na synonymous codons is

      where ∆M is the mutation bias, ∆η is the strength of selection scaled by the strength of drift, and φg is the gene expression level of gene g. In this case, ∆M and ∆η reflect the strength and direction of mutation bias and natural selection relative to a reference codon, for which ∆M,∆η = 0. Assuming the selection-mutation-drift equilibrium model is generally adequate to model of the true codon usage patterns in a genome (as I do and I think the authors do, too), the Ei,g could be considered the expected observed frequency codon i in gene g

      E[Oi,g].

      Let’s re-write the  in the form of Gilchrist et al., such that it is a function of mutation bias ∆M. For simplicity we will consider just the two codon case and assume the amino acid sequence is fixed. Assuming GC% is at equilibrium, the term gr and 1 − gr can be written as

      where µx→y is the mutation rate from nucleotides x to y. As described in Gilchrist et al. MBE 2015 and Shah and Gilchrist PNAS 2011, the mutation bias .This can be expressed in terms of the equilibrium GC content by recognizing that

      As we are assuming the amino acid sequence is fixed, the probability of observing a synonymous codon i at an amino acid becomes just a Bernoulli process. 

      If we do this, then 

      Recall that in the Gilchrist et al. framework, the reference codon has ∆MNNG,NNG \= 0 =⇒ e−∆MNNG,NNG \=1. Thus, we have recovered the Gilchrist et al. model from the formulation of $E_i$ under the assumption that natural selection has no impact on codon usage and codon NNG is the pre-defined reference codon. To see this, plug in 0 for ∆η in equation (1).. 

      We can then calculate the expected RSCUS using equation (1) (using notation E[Oi]) and equation (6) for the two codon case. For simplicity assume, we are only considering a gene of average expression (defined as ). Assume in this case that NNG is the reference codon (∆MNNG,∆ηNNG \= 0).

      This shows that the expected value of RSCUS for a two-codon amino acid is expected to increase as the strength of selection $\Delta\eta$ increases, which is desired. Note that $\Delta\eta$ in Gilchrist et al. is formulated in terms of selection *against* a codon relative to the reference, such that a negative value represents that a codon is favored relative to the reference. If $\Delta\eta = 0$ (i.e. selection does not favor either codon), then $E[RSCUS] = 1$. Also note that the expected RSCUS does not remain independent of the mutation bias. This means that even if $sN_e$ (i.e. the strength of natural selection) does not change between species, changes to the strength and direction of mutation bias across species could impact RSCUS. Assuming my math is right, I think one needs to be cautious when interpreting CAIS as representative of the differences in the efficiency of selection across species except under very particular circumstances. One such case could be when it is known that mutation bias varies little across the species of interest. Looking at the species used in this manuscript, most of them have a GC content ranging around 0.41, so I suspect their results are okay. 

      Although I have not done so, I am sure this could be extended to the 4 and 6 codon amino acids. 

      We thank Reviewer 2 for explicitly laying out the math that was implicit in our Figures 1 and 2. While we keep our more heuristic presentation, our revised manuscript now more clearly acknowledges that the per-site codon adaptation bias depicted in Figure 1 has limited sensitivity to s*Ne. The reason that we believe our approach worked despite this, is that we think the phenomenon is driven by what is shown in Figure 2. I.e., where Ne makes a difference is by determining the proteome-wide fraction of codons subject to significant codon adaptation, rather than by determining the strength of codon adaptation at any particular site or gene. We have made multiple changes to the texts to make this point clearer.

      Another minor weakness of this work is that although the method is generally applicable to any species with an annotated genome and the code is publicly available, the code itself contains hard-coded values for GC% and amino acid frequencies across the 118 vertebrates. The lack of a more flexible tool may make it difficult for less computationally-experienced researchers to take advantage of this method. 

      Genome-wide %GC values are hard-coded because they were taken from the previous study of James et al. (2023) https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msad073. As summarized in the manuscript, genome-wide %GC was a byproduct of a scan of all six reading frames across genic and intergenic sequences available from NCBI with access dates between May and July 2019. The more complicated code used to calculate the intergenic %GC, and the code used to calculate amino acid frequencies is located at https://github.com/MaselLab/CodonAdaptation-Index-of-Species. Luckily, someone else just wrote a simpler end to end pipeline for us, on the basis of our preprint. We now note this in the Acknowledgements, and link to it: https://github.com/gavinmdouglas/handy_pop_gen/blob/main/CAIS.py.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Major changes in the revised manuscript include:

      (1) The distinction between condition-dependent versus condition-independent variation in neural activity has been clarified. 

      (2) Principal angle calculations have been added. 

      (3) Neurons modulated during action execution but not during action observation have been analyzed to compare and contrast with mirror neurons. 

      (4) Canonical correlation analysis has been extended to three dimensions. 

      (5) Speculations have been moved to and modified in the Discussion. 

      (6) Computational details have been expanded in the Methods.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary and strengths. This paper starts with an exceptionally fair and balanced introduction to a topic, the mirror neuron literature, which is often debated and prone to controversies even in the choice of the terminology. In my opinion, the authors made an excellent job in this regard, and I really appreciated it. Then, they propose a novel method to look at population dynamics to compare neural selectivity and alignment between execution and observation of actions performed with different types of grip. 

      Thank you.

      Weakness.

      Unfortunately, the goal and findings within this well-described framework are less clear to me. The authors aimed to investigate, using a novel analytic approach, whether and to what extent a match exists between population codes and neural dynamics when a monkey performs an action or observes it performed by an experimenter. This motivation stems from the fact that the general evidence in the literature is that the match between visual and motor selectivity of mirror neuron responses is essentially at a chance level. While the approach devised by the author is generally well-described and understandable, the main result obtained confirms this general finding of a lack of matching between the two contexts in 2 out of the three monkeys. Nevertheless, the authors claim that the patterns associated with execution and observation can be re-aligned with canonical correlation, indicating that these distinct neural representations show dynamical similarity that may enable the nervous system to recognize particular actions. This final conclusion is hardly acceptable to me, and constitutes my major concern, at least without a more explicit explanation: how do we know that this additional operation can be performed by the brain? 

      Point taken.  In the Discussion, we now have clarified that this is our speculation rather than a conclusion and we also offer an alternative interpretation (lines 724 to 744):

      “One classic interpretation of similar latent dynamics in the PM MN population during execution and observation would be that this similarity provides a means for the brain to recognize similar movements performed by the monkey during execution and by the experimenter during observation. Through some process akin to a communication subspace (Semedo et al., 2019), brain regions beyond PM might recognize the correspondence between the latent dynamics of the executed and observed actions.

      Alternatively, given that observation of another individual can be considered a form of social interaction, PM MN population activity during action observation, rather than representing movements made by another individual similar to one’s own movements, instead may represent different movements one might execute oneself in response to those made by another individual (Ninomiya et al., 2020; Bonini et al., 2022; Ferrucci et al., 2022; Pomper et al., 2023). This possibility is consistent with the finding that the neural dynamics of PM MN populations are more similar during observation of biological versus non-biological movements than during execution versus observation (Albertini et al., 2021). Though neurons active only during observation of others (AO units) have been hypothesized to drive observation activity in MNs, the present AO populations were too small to analyze with the approaches we applied here.  Nevertheless, the similar relative organization of the execution and observation population activity in PM MNs revealed here by alignment of their latent dynamics through CCA could constitute a correspondence between particular movements that might be made by the subject in response to particular movements made by the other individual, i.e. responsive movements which would not necessarily be motorically similar to the observed movements.”

      Is this a computational trick to artificially align something that is naturally non-aligned, or can it capture something real and useful? 

      We feel this is more than a trick.  In the Introduction, we now have clarified (lines 166 to 170):

      “Such alignment would indicate that the relationships among the trajectory segments in the execution subspace are similar to the relationships among the trajectory segments in the observation subspace, indicating a corresponding structure in the latent dynamic representations of execution and observation movements by the same PM MN population.”

      In the Results we give the follow example (lines 446 to 455):

      “Such alignment would indicate that neural representations of trials involving the four objects bore a similar relationship to one another in neural space during execution and observation, even though they occurred in different subspaces.  For example, the trajectories of PMd+M1 neuron populations recorded from two different monkeys during center-out reaching movements could be aligned well (Safaie et al., 2023).  CCA showed, for example, that in both brains the neural trajectory for the movement to the target at 0° was closer to the trajectory for movement to the target at 45° than to the trajectory for the movement to the target at 180°. Relationships among these latent dynamic representations of the eight movements thus were similar even though the neural populations were recorded from two different monkeys.”

      And in the Discussion we now compare (lines 677 to 686):

      “Corresponding neural representations of action execution and observation during task epochs with higher neural firing rates have been described previously in PMd MNs and in PMv MNs using representational similarity analysis RSA (Papadourakis and Raos, 2019).  And during force production in eight different directions, neural trajectories of PMd neurons draw similar “clocks” during execution, cooperative execution, and passive observation (Pezzulo et al., 2022).  Likewise in the present study, despite execution and observation trajectories progressing through largely distinct subspaces, in all three monkeys execution and observation trajectory segments showed some degree of alignment, particularly the Movement and Hold segments (Figure 8C), indicating similar relationships among the latent dynamic representations of the four RGM movements during execution and observation.”

      Based on the accumulated evidence on space-constrained coding of others' actions by mirror neurons (e.g., Caggiano et al. 2009; Maranesi et al. 2017), recent evidence also cited by the authors (Pomper et al. 2023), and the most recent views supported even by the first author of the original discovery (i.e., Vittorio Gallese, see Bonini et al. 2022 on TICS), it seems that one of the main functions of these cells, especially in monkeys, might be to prepare actions and motor responses during social interaction rather than recognizing the actions of others - something that visual brain areas could easily do better than motor ones in most situations. In this perspective, and given the absence of causal evidence so far, the lack of visuo-motor congruence is a potentially relevant feature of the mechanism rather than something to be computationally cracked at all costs. 

      We agree that this perspective provides a valuable interpretation of our findings.  In the Discussion, we have added the following paragraph (lines 730 to 744):

      “Alternatively, given that observation of another individual can be considered a form of social interaction, PM MN population activity during action observation, rather than representing movements made by another individual similar to one’s own movements, instead may represent different movements one might execute oneself in response to those made by another individual (Ninomiya et al., 2020; Bonini et al., 2022; Ferrucci et al., 2022; Pomper et al., 2023). This possibility is consistent with the finding that the neural dynamics of PM MN populations are more similar during observation of biological versus non-biological movements than during execution versus observation (Albertini et al., 2021). Though neurons active only during observation of others (AO units) have been hypothesized to drive observation activity in MNs, the present AO populations were too small to analyze with the approaches we applied here.  Nevertheless, the similar relative organization of the execution and observation population activity in PM MNs revealed here by alignment of their latent dynamics through CCA could constitute a correspondence between particular movements that might be made by the subject in response to particular movements made by the other individual, i.e. responsive movements which would not necessarily be motorically similar to the observed movements.”

      Specific comments on Results/Methods: 

      I can understand, based on the authors' hypothesis, that they employed an ANOVA to preliminarily test whether and which of the recorded neurons fit their definition of "mirror neurons". However, given the emphasis on the population level, and the consolidated finding of highly different execution and observation responses, I think it could be interesting to apply the same analysis on (at least also) the whole recorded neuronal population, without any preselection-based on a single neuron statistic. Such preselection of mirror neurons could influence the results of EXE-OBS comparisons since all the neurons activated only during EXE or OBS are excluded. Related to this point, the authors could report the total number of recorded neurons per monkey/session, so that also the fraction of neurons fitting their definition of mirror neuron is explicit. 

      We are aware that a number of recent studies from other laboratories already have analyzed the entire population of neurons during execution versus observation, without selectively analyzing neurons active during both execution and observation (Jiang et al., 2020; Albertini et al., 2021). However, our focus lies not in how the entire PM neural population encodes execution versus observation, but in the differential activity of the mirror neuron subpopulation in these two contexts.  Our new Table 2 presents the numbers of mirror neurons (MN), action execution only neurons (AE), action observation only neurons (AO), and neurons not significantly task-related during either execution or observation (NS).  Although we often recorded substantial numbers of AE neurons, very few AO neurons were found in our recordings.  In analyzing the AE subpopulation, we found unexpected differences in canonical correlation alignment between and within the MN and AE neuron populations. In view of the editors’ comments that “…the reviewers provided several specific recommendations of new analyses to include. However, now the paper feels extremely long…”. We have chosen to focus on comparing AE neurons with MNs.  

      Furthermore, the comparison of the dynamics of the classification accuracy in figures 4 and 5, and therefore the underlying assumption of subspaces shift in execution and observation, respectively, reveal substantial similarities between monkeys despite the different contexts, which are clearly greater than the similarities among neural subspaces shifts across task epochs: to me, this suggests that the main result is driven by the selected neural populations in different monkeys/implants rather than by an essential property of the neuronal dynamics valid across animals. Could the author comment on this issue? This could easily explain the "strange" result reported in figure 6 for monkey T. 

      We have taken the general approach of emphasizing findings common across individual animals, but also reporting individual differences.  We have added the following in the Discussion (lines 645 to 654):

      “We did not attempt to classify neurons in our PM MN populations as strictly congruent, broadly congruent, or non-congruent.  Nevertheless, the minimal overlap we found in instantaneous execution and observation subspaces would be consistent with a low degree of congruence in our PM MN populations.  Particularly during one session monkey T was an exception in this regard, showing a considerable degree of overlap between execution and observation subspaces, not unlike the shared subspace found in other studies that identified orthogonal execution and observation subspaces as well (Jiang et al., 2020).  Although our microelectrode arrays were placed in similar cortical locations in the three monkeys, by chance monkey T’s PM MN population may have included a substantial proportion of congruent neurons.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      In this work, the authors set out to identify time-varying subspaces in the premotor cortical activity of monkeys as they executed/observed a reach-grasp-hold movement of 4 different objects. Then, they projected the neural activity to these subspaces and found evidence of shifting subspaces in the time course of a trial in both conditions, executing and observing. These shifting subspaces appear to be distinct in execution and observation trials. However, correlation analysis of neural dynamics reveals the similarity of dynamics in these distinct subspaces. Taken together, Zhao and Schieber speculate that the condition-dependent activity studied here provides a representation of movement that relies on the actor. 

      This work addresses an interesting question. The authors developed a novel approach to identify instantaneous subspaces and decoded the object type from the projected neural dynamics within these subspaces. As interesting as these results might be, I have a few suggestions and questions to improve the manuscript: 

      (1) Repeating the analyses in the paper, e.g., in Fig5, using non-MN units only or the entire population, and demonstrating that the results are specific to MNs would make the whole study much more compelling. 

      We have added analyses of those non-MNs modulated significantly during action execution but not during observation, which we refer to as AE neurons.  The additional findings from these analyses are spread throughout the manuscript:

      Lines 284-293:

      “We also examined the temporal progression of the instantaneous subspace of AE neurons.  As would be expected given that AE neurons were not modulated significantly during observation trials, in the observation context AE populations had no gradual changes in principal angle (Figure 4 – figure supplement 3).  During execution, however, Figure 4I-L show that the AE populations had a pattern of gradual decrease in principal angle similar to that found in the MN population (Figure 4A-D).  After the instruction onset, the instantaneous subspace shifted quickly away from that present at time I and progressed gradually toward that present at times G and M, only shifting toward that present at time H after movement onset.  As for the PM MN populations, the condition-dependent subspace of the PM AE populations shifted progressively over the time course of execution RGM trials.” 

      Lines 411-419:

      “During execution trials, classification accuracy for AE populations (Figure 6I-L) showed a time course quite similar to that for MN populations, though amplitudes were lower overall, most likely because of the smaller population sizes. During observation, AE populations showed only low-amplitude, short-lived peaks of classification accuracy around times I, G, M, and H (Figure 6 – figure supplement 1).  Given that individual AE neurons showed no statistically significant modulation during observation trials, even these small peaks might not have been expected.  Previous studies have indicated, however, that neurons not individually related to task events nevertheless may contribute to a population response (Shenoy et al., 2013; Cunningham and Yu, 2014; Gallego et al., 2017; Jiang et al., 2020).”

      Lines 495-508:

      “Although MNs are known to be present in considerable numbers in both the primary motor cortex and premotor cortex (see Introduction), most studies of movement-related cortical activity in these areas make no distinction between neurons with activity only during action execution (AE neurons) and those with activity during both execution and observation (MNs).  This reflects an underlying assumption that during action execution, mirror neurons function in parallel with AE neurons, differing only during observation.  We therefore tested the hypothesis that MN and AE neuron execution trajectory segments from the same session would align well.  Figure 8C (blue) shows the mean CCs between MN and AE execution trajectory segments across 8 alignments (MN/AE; 2 R, 3 T, 3 F), which reached the highest values for the Hold segments .  All three of these coefficients were substantially lower than those for the MN execution vs. observation alignments given above.  Surprisingly, the alignment of AE neuron execution trajectory segments with those of the simultaneously recorded MN population was weaker than the alignment of MN trajectories during execution vs. observation.

      Did these differences in MN:1/2, MN:E/O, and MN/AE alignment result from consistent differences in their respective patterns of co-modulation, or from of greater trial-by-trial variability in the patterns of co-modulation among MNs during observation than during execution, and still greater variability among AE neurons during execution?  The bootstrapping approach we used for CCA (see Methods) enabled us to evaluate the consistency of relationships among trajectory segments across repeated samplings of trials recorded from the same neuron population in the same session and in the same context (execution or observation).  We therefore performed 500 iterations of CCA between two different random samples of MN execution (MN:E/E), MN  observation (MN:O/O), or AE execution (AE:E/E) trajectory segments from a given session (2 R, 3 T, 3 F). This within-group alignment of MN execution trajectory segments from the same session (Figure 8D, MN:E/E, gray, Hold: () was as strong as between session alignment (Figure 8C, MN/1:2, black).  But within-group alignment of MN observation trajectory segments (Figure 8D, MN:O/O, orange, Hold: () was lower than that found with MN execution segments (Figure 8C, MN:E/O, red, .  Likewise, within-group alignment of AE neuron trajectory segments (Figure 8D, AE:E/E, light blue, Hold: () was lower than their alignment with MN execution segments (Figure 8C, MN/AE, blue, Hold: ().  Whereas MN execution trajectories were relatively consistent within sessions, MN observation trajectories and AE execution trajectories were less so.”

      And in the Discussion we now suggest (lines 682 to 698):

      “Based on the assumption that AE neurons and MNs function as a homogenous neuron population during action execution, we had expected AE and MN execution trajectory segments to align closely.  During execution trials, the progression of instantaneous condition-dependent subspaces and of classification accuracy in AE populations was quite similar to that in MN populations.  We were surprised to find, therefore, that alignment between execution trajectory segments from AE populations and from the simultaneously recorded MN populations was even lower than alignment between MN execution and observation segments (Figure 8C, blue versus red).  Moreover, whereas within-group alignment of MN execution trajectory segments was high, within-group alignment of AE neuron execution trajectory segments was low (Figure 8D, gray versus light blue).  These findings indicate that the predominant patterns of co-modulation among MNs during execution are quite consistent within sessions, but the patterns of comodulation among AE neurons are considerably more variable.  Together with our previous finding that modulation of MNs leads that of non-mirror neurons in time, both at the single neuron level and at the population level (Mazurek and Schieber, 2019), this difference in consistency versus variability leads us to speculate that during action execution, while MNs carry a consistent forward model of the intended movement, AE neurons carry more variable feedback information.”

      (2) The method presented here is similar and perhaps related to principal angles (https://doi.org/10.2307/2005662). It would be interesting to confirm these results with principal angles. For instance, instead of using the decoding performance as a proxy for shifting subspaces, principal angles could directly quantify the 'shift' (similar to Gallego et al, Nat Comm, 2018). 

      Point taken.  We now have calculated the principal angles as a function of time and present them as a new section of the Results including new figure 4 (lines 237 to 293). 

      “Instantaneous subspaces shift progressively during both execution and observation 

      We identified an instantaneous subspace at each one millisecond time step of RGM trials.  At each time step, we applied PCA to the 4 instantaneous neural states (i.e. the 4 points on the neural trajectories representing trials involving the 4 different objects each averaged across 20 trials per object, totaling 80 trials), yielding a 3-dimensional subspace at that time (see Methods).  Note that because these 3-dimensional subspaces are essentially instantaneous, they capture the condition-dependent variation in neural states, but not the common, condition-independent variation.  To examine the temporal progression of these instantaneous subspaces, we then calculated the principal angles between each 80-trial instantaneous subspace and the instantaneous subspaces averaged across all trials at four behavioral time points that could be readily defined across trials, sessions, and monkeys: the onset of the instruction (I), the go cue (G), the movement onset (M), and the beginning of the final hold (H).  This process was repeated 10 times with replacement to assess the variability of the principal angles.  The closer the principal angles are to 0°, the closer the two subspaces are to being identical; the closer to 90°, the closer the two subspaces are to being orthogonal.  

      Figure 4A-D illustrate the temporal progression of the first principal angle of the mirror neuron population in the three sessions (red, green, and blue) from monkey R during execution trials. As illustrated in Figure 4 – figure supplement 1 (see also the related Methods), in each session all three principal angles, each of which could range from 0° to 90°, tended to follow a similar time course.  In the Results we therefore illustrate only the first (i.e. smallest) principal angle.  Solid traces represent the mean across 10-fold cross validation using the 80-trial subsets of all the available trials; shading indicates ±1 standard deviation.  As would be expected, the instantaneous subspace using 80 trials approaches the subspace using all trials at each of the four selected times—I, G, M, and H—indicated by the relatively narrow trough dipping toward 0°.  Of greater interest are the slower changes in the first principal angle in between these four time points.  Figure 4A shows that after instruction onset (I) the instantaneous subspace shifted quickly away from the subspace at time I, indicated by a rapid increase in principal angle to levels not much lower than what might be expected by chance alone (horizontal dashed line). In contrast, throughout the remainder of the instruction and delay epochs (from I to G), Figure 4B and C show that the 80-trial instantaneous subspace shifted gradually and concurrently, not sequentially, toward the all-trial subspaces that would be reached at the end of the delay period (G) and then at the onset of movement (M), indicated by the progressive decreases in principal angle. As shown by Figure 4D, shifting toward the H subspace did not begin until the movement onset (M). To summarize, these changes in principal angles indicate that after shifting briefly toward the subspace present at time the instruction appeared (I), the instantaneous subspace shifted progressively throughout the instruction and delay epochs toward the subspace that would be reached at the time of the go cue (G), then further toward that at the time of movement onset (M), and only thereafter shifted toward the instantaneous subspace that would be present at the time of the hold (H).

      Figure 4E-H show the progression of the first principal angle of the mirror neuron population during observation trials.  Overall, the temporal progression of the MN instantaneous subspace during observation was similar to that found during execution, particularly around times I and H.  The decrease in principal angle relative to the G and M instantaneous subspaces during the delay epoch was less pronounced during observation than during execution.  Nevertheless, these findings support the hypothesis that the condition-dependent subspace of PM MNs shifts progressively over the time course of RGM trials during both execution and observation, as illustrated schematically in Figure 1A.

      We also examined the temporal progression of the instantaneous subspace of AE neurons.  As would be expected given that AE neurons were not modulated significantly during observation trials, in the observation context AE populations had no gradual changes in principal angle (Figure 4 – figure supplement 3).  During execution, however, Figure 4I-L show that the AE populations had a pattern of gradual decrease in principal angle similar to that found in the MN population (Figure 4A-D).  After the instruction onset, the instantaneous subspace shifted quickly away from that present at time I and progressed gradually toward that present at times G and M, only shifting toward that present at time H after movement onset.  As for the PM MN populations, the condition-dependent subspace of the PM AE populations shifted progressively over the time course of execution RGM trials.”

      The related Methods are now described in subsection “Subspace Comparisons—Principal Angles”

      Relatedly, why the decoding of the 'object type' is used to establish the progressive shifting of the subspaces? I would be interested to see the authors' argument. 

      We have clarified the reason for our decoding analysis as follows (lines 295 to 297):

      “The progressive changes in principal angles do not capture another important aspect of condition-dependent neural activity.  The neural trajectories during trials involving different objects separated increasingly as trials progressed in time.”

      And… (lines 332 to 348):

      “Decodable information changes progressively during both execution and observation 

      As RGM trials proceeded in time, the condition-dependent neural activity of the PM MN population thus changed in two ways.  First, the instantaneous condition-dependent subspace shifted, indicating that the patterns of firing-rate co-modulation among neurons representing the four different RGM movements changed progressively, both during execution and during observation.  Second, as firing rates generally increased, the neural trajectories representing the four RGM movements became progressively more separated, more so during execution than during observation. 

      To evaluate the combined effects of these two progressive changes, we clipped 100 ms single-trial trajectory segments beginning at times I, G, M, or H, and projected these trajectory segments from individual trials into the instantaneous 3D subspaces at 50 ms time steps.  At each of these time steps, we trained a separate LSTM decoder to classify individual trials according to which of the four objects was involved in that trial.  We expected that the trajectory segments would be classified most accurately when projected into instantaneous subspaces near the time at which the trajectory segments were clipped.  At other times we reasoned that classification accuracy would depend both on the similarity of the current instantaneous subspace to that found at the clip time as evaluated by the principal angle (Figure 4), and on the separation of the four trajectories at the clip time (Figure 5).”

      The object type should be much more decodable during movement or hold, than instruction, which is probably why the chance-level decoding performance (horizontal lines) is twice the instruction segment for the movement segment. 

      Indeed, the object type is more decodable during the movement and hold than during instruction or delay epochs.

      (3) Why aren't execution and observation subspaces compared together directly? Especially given that there are both types of trials in the same session with the same recorded population of neurons. Using instantaneous subspaces, or the principal angles between manifolds during exec trials vs obs trials.

      Point taken.  We now have added comparison of the execution and observation subspaces using the principal angles between instantaneous subspaces (lines 421 to 436):

      “Do PM mirror neurons progress through the same subspaces during execution and observation?

      Having found that PM mirror neuron populations show similar progressive shifts in their instantaneous neural subspace during execution and observation of RGM trials, as well as similar changes in decodable information, we then asked whether this progression passes through similar subspaces during execution and observation.  To address this question, we first calculated the principal angles between the instantaneous mirror-neuron execution subspace at selected times I, G, M, or H and the entire time series of instantaneous mirror-neuron observation subspaces (Figure 7A-D).  Conversely, we calculated the principal angles between the instantaneous observation subspaces at selected times I, G, M, or H and the entire time series of instantaneous execution subspaces (Figure 7E-H).  Although the principal angles were slightly smaller than might be expected from chance alone, indicating some minimal overlap of execution and observation instantaneous subspaces, the instantaneous observation subspaces did not show any progressive shift toward the I, G, M, or H execution subspace (Figure 7A-D), nor did the instantaneous execution subspaces shift toward the I, G, M, or H observation subspace (Figure 7E-H).”

      (4) The definition of the instantaneous subspaces is a critical point in the manuscript. I think it is slightly unclear: based on the Methods section #715-722 and the main text #173-#181, I gather that the subspaces are based on trial averaged neural activity for each of the 4 objects, separately. So for each object and per timepoint, a vector of size (1, n) -n neurons- is reduced to a vector of (1, 2 or 3 -the main text says 2, methods say 3-) which would be a single point in the low-d space. Is this description accurate? This should be clarified in the manuscript.  

      In the Methods, we now have clarified (lines 849 to 859):

      “Instantaneous subspace identification 

      Instantaneous neural subspaces were identified at 1 ms intervals.  At each 1 ms time step, the N-dimensional neural firing rates from trials involving the four different objects— sphere, button, coaxial cylinder, and perpendicular cylinder—were averaged separately, providing four points in the N-dimensional space representing the average neural activity for trials involving the different objects at that time step.  PCA then was performed on these four points.  Because three dimensions capture all the variance of four points, three principal component dimensions fully defined each instantaneous subspace.  Each instantaneous 3D subspace can be considered a filter described by a matrix, W, that can project high-dimensional neural activity into a low-dimensional subspace, with the time series of instantaneous subspaces, W_i, forming a time series of filters (Figure 1B).”

      (5) Isn't the process of projecting segments of neural dynamics and comparing the results equivalent to comparing the projection matrices in the first place? If so, that might have been a more intuitive avenue to follow. 

      As described in more detail in our responses to item 2, above, we have added analyses of principal angles to compare the projection matrices directly.  However, “the process of projecting segments of neural dynamics and comparing the results” incorporates the progressively increasing separation of the trajectory segments and hence is not simply equivalent to comparing the subspaces with principal angles.

      (6) Lines #385-#389: This process seems unnecessarily complicated. Also, given the number of trials available, this sometimes doesn't make sense. E.g. Monkey R exec has only 8 trials of one of the objects, so bootstrapping 20 trials 500 times would be spurious. Why not, as per Gallego et al, Nat Neurosci 2020 and Safaie et al, Nat 2023 which are cited, concatenate the trials? 

      In the Methods we now clarify that (lines 953 to 969):

      “To provide an estimate of variability, we used a bootstrapping approach to CCA.  From each of two data sets we randomly selected 20 trials involving each target object (totaling 80 trials) with replacement, clipped trajectory segments from each of those trials for 100 ms (100 points at 1 ms intervals) after the instruction onset, go cue, movement onset, or beginning of the final hold, and performed CCA as described above. (Note that because session 1 from monkey R included only 8 button trials (Table 1), we excluded this session from CCA analyses.)  With 500 iterations, we obtained a distribution of the correlation coefficients (CCs) between the two data sets in each of the three dimensions of the aligned subspace, which permitted statistical comparisons. We then used this approach to evaluate alignment of latent dynamics between different sessions (e.g. execution trials on two different days), between different contexts (e.g. execution and observation), and between different neural populations (e.g. MNs and AE neurons).This bootstrapping approach further enabled us to assess the consistency of relationships among neural trajectories within a given group—i.e. the same neural population during the same context (execution or observation) in the same session—by drawing two separate random samples of 80 trials from the same population, context, and session (Figure 8D), which would not have been possible had we concatenated trajectory segments from all trials in the session (Gallego et al., 2020; Safaie et al., 2023).”

      And we report results that could not have been obtained by concatenating all the trials (lines 522 to 541):

      “Did these differences in MN:1/2, MN:E/O, and MN/AE alignment result from consistent differences in their respective patterns of co-modulation, or from of greater trial-by-trial variability in the patterns of co-modulation among MNs during observation than during execution, and still greater variability among AE neurons during execution?  The bootstrapping approach we used for CCA (see Methods) enabled us to evaluate the consistency of relationships among trajectory segments across repeated samplings of trials recorded from the same neuron population in the same session and in the same context (execution or observation).  We therefore performed 500 iterations of CCA between two different random samples of MN execution (MN:E/E), MN  observation (MN:O/O), or AE execution (AE:E/E) trajectory segments from a given session (2 R, 3 T, 3 F). This within-group alignment of MN execution trajectory segments from the same session (Figure 8D, MN:E/E, gray, Hold: () was as strong as between session alignment (Figure 8C, MN/1:2, black).  But within-group alignment of MN observation trajectory segments (Figure 8D, MN:O/O, orange, Hold: () was lower than that found with MN execution segments (Figure 8C, MN:E/O, red, .  Likewise, within-group alignment of AE neuron trajectory segments (Figure 8D, AE:E/E, light blue, Hold: () was lower than their alignment with MN execution segments (Figure 8C, MN/AE, blue, Hold: ().  Whereas MN execution trajectories were relatively consistent within sessions, MN observation trajectories and AE execution trajectories were less so.”

      Because only 8 button trials were available in Session 1 from Monkey R, we excluded this session from the CCA analyses.  Sessions 2 and 3 from monkey R provide valid results, however.  For example, we now state explicitly (lines 468 to 472):

      “As a positive control, we first aligned MN execution trajectory segments from two different sessions in the same monkey (which we abbreviate as MN:1/2).  The 2 sessions in monkey R provided only 1 possible comparison, but the 3 sessions in monkeys T and F each provided 3 comparisons.  For each of these 7 comparisons, we found the bootstrapped average of CC1, of CC2, and of CC3.”

      (7) Related to the CCA analysis, what behavioural epoch has been used here, the same as the previous analyses, i.e. 100ms? how many datapoint is that in time? Given that CCA is essentially a correlation value, too few datapoints make it rather meaningless. If that's the case, I encourage using, let's say, one window combined of I and G until movement, and one window of movement and hold, such that they are both easier to interpret. Indeed low values of exec-exec in CC2 compared to Gallego et al, Nat Neurosci, 2020 might be a sign of a methodological error. 

      In the Methods described for CCA, we now have clarified that (lines 953 to 961):

      “To provide an estimate of variability, we used a bootstrapping approach to CCA.  From each of two data sets we randomly selected 20 trials involving each target object (totaling 80 trials) with replacement, clipped trajectory segments from each of those trials for 100 ms (100 points at 1 ms intervals) after the instruction onset, go cue, movement onset, or beginning of the final hold, and performed CCA as described above. (Note that because session 1 from monkey R included only 8 button trials (Table 1), we excluded this session from CCA analyses.)  With 500 iterations, we obtained a distribution of the correlation coefficients (CCs) between the two data sets in each of the three dimensions of the aligned subspace, which permitted statistical comparisons.”

      And in the Results we report that (lines 475 to 480):

      “The highest values for MN:1/2 correlations were obtained for the Movement trajectory segments .  These values indicate consistent relationships among the Movement neural trajectory segments representing the four different RGM movements from session to session, as would have been expected from previous studies (Gallego et al., 2018; Gallego et al., 2020; Safaie et al., 2023).”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In their study, Zhao et al. investigated the population activity of mirror neurons (MNs) in the premotor cortex of monkeys either executing or observing a task consisting of reaching to, grasping, and manipulating various objects. The authors proposed an innovative method for analyzing the population activity of MNs during both execution and observation trials. This method enabled to isolate the condition-dependent variance in neural data and to study its temporal evolution over the course of single trials. The method proposed by the authors consists of building a time series of "instantaneous" subspaces with single time step resolution, rather than a single subspace spanning the entire task duration. As these subspaces are computed on an instant time basis, projecting neural activity from a given task time into them results in latent trajectories that capture condition-dependent variance while minimizing the condition-independent one. The authors then analyzed the time evolution of these instantaneous subspaces and revealed that a progressive shift is present in subspaces of both execution and observation trials, with slower shifts during the grasping and manipulating phases compared to the initial preparation phase. Finally, they compared the instantaneous subspaces between execution and observation trials and observed that neural population activity did not traverse the same subspaces in these two conditions. However, they showed that these distinct neural representations can be aligned with Canonical Correlation Analysis, indicating dynamic similarities of neural data when executing and observing the task. The authors speculated that such similarities might facilitate the nervous system's ability to recognize actions performed by oneself or another individual. 

      Strengths: 

      Unlike other areas of the brain, the analysis of neural population dynamics of premotor cortex MNs is not well established. Furthermore, analyzing population activity recorded during non-trivial motor actions, distinct from the commonly used reaching tasks, serves as a valuable contribution to computational neuroscience. This study holds particular significance as it bridges both domains, shedding light on the temporal evolution of the shift in neural states when executing and observing actions. The results are moderately robust, and the proposed analytical method could potentially be used in other neuroscience contexts. 

      Weaknesses: 

      While the overall clarity is satisfactory, the paper falls short in providing a clear description of the mathematical formulas for the different methods used in the study. 

      We have added the various mathematical formulas in the Methods.

      For Cumulative Separation (lines 864 to 871): 

      “To quantify the separation between the four trial-averaged trajectory segments involving the different objects in a given instantaneous subspace, we then calculated their cumulative separation (𝐶𝑆) as: 

      where d<sub>ij</sub>(t) is the 3-dimensional Euclidean distance between the i<sup>th</sup> and j<sup>th</sup> trajectories at time point 𝑡. We summed the 6 pairwise distances between the 4 trajectory segments across time points and normalized by the number of time points, 𝑇 = 100.  The larger the 𝐶𝑆, the greater the separation of the trajectory segments.”

      For principal angles (lines 877 to 884): 

      For example, given the 3-dimensional instantaneous subspace at the time of movement onset, W<sub>M</sub> and at any other time, W<sub>i</sub>, we calculated their 3x3 inner product matrix and performed singular value decomposition to obtain:

      where 3x3 matrices P<sub>M</sub> and W<sub>P</sub> define new manifold directions which successively minimize the 3 principal angles specific to the two subspaces being compared. The elements of diagonal matrix 𝐶 then are the ranked cosines of the principal angles, 𝜃𝑖 , ordered from smallest to largest: 

      For CCA (lines 945 to 952): 

      “CCA was performed as follows: The original latent dynamics, L<sub>A</sub> and L<sub>B</sub>, first were transformed and decomposed as and .  The first m = 3 column vectors of each 𝑄𝑖 provide an orthonormal basis for the column vectors of (where 𝑖 = 𝐴, 𝐵).  Singular value decomposition on the inner product matrix of  𝑄𝐴 and 𝑄𝐵 then gives , and new manifold directions that maximize pairwise correlations are provided by and .  We then projected the original latent dynamics into the new, common subspace: .  Pairwise correlation coefficients between the aligned latent dynamics sorted from largest to smallest then are given by the elements of the diagonal matrix .”

      Moreover, it was not immediately clear why the authors did not consider a (relatively) straightforward metric to quantity the progressive shift of the instantaneous subspaces, such as computing the angle between consecutive subspaces, rather than choosing a (in my opinion) more cumbersome metric based on classification of trajectory segments representing different movements. 

      Point taken.  We now have calculated the principal angles as a function of time and present them as a new section of the Results including new figure 4 (lines 237 to 293). 

      “Instantaneous subspaces shift progressively during both execution and observation 

      We identified an instantaneous subspace at each one millisecond time step of RGM trials.  At each time step, we applied PCA to the 4 instantaneous neural states (i.e. the 4 points on the neural trajectories representing trials involving the 4 different objects each averaged across 20 trials per object, totaling 80 trials), yielding a 3-dimensional subspace at that time (see Methods).  Note that because these 3-dimensional subspaces are essentially instantaneous, they capture the condition-dependent variation in neural states, but not the common, condition-independent variation.  To examine the temporal progression of these instantaneous subspaces, we then calculated the principal angles between each 80-trial instantaneous subspace and the instantaneous subspaces averaged across all trials at four behavioral time points that could be readily defined across trials, sessions, and monkeys: the onset of the instruction (I), the go cue (G), the movement onset (M), and the beginning of the final hold (H).  This process was repeated 10 times with replacement to assess the variability of the principal angles.  The closer the principal angles are to 0°, the closer the two subspaces are to being identical; the closer to 90°, the closer the two subspaces are to being orthogonal.  

      Figure 4A-D illustrate the temporal progression of the first principal angle of the mirror neuron population in the three sessions (red, green, and blue) from monkey R during execution trials. As illustrated in Figure 4 – figure supplement 1 (see also the related Methods), in each session all three principal angles, each of which could range from 0° to 90°, tended to follow a similar time course.  In the Results we therefore illustrate only the first (i.e. smallest) principal angle.  Solid traces represent the mean across 10-fold cross validation using the 80-trial subsets of all the available trials; shading indicates ±1 standard deviation.  As would be expected, the instantaneous subspace using 80 trials approaches the subspace using all trials at each of the four selected times—I, G, M, and H—indicated by the relatively narrow trough dipping toward 0°.  Of greater interest are the slower changes in the first principal angle in between these four time points.  Figure 4A shows that after instruction onset (I) the instantaneous subspace shifted quickly away from the subspace at time I, indicated by a rapid increase in principal angle to levels not much lower than what might be expected by chance alone (horizontal dashed line). In contrast, throughout the remainder of the instruction and delay epochs (from I to G), Figure 4B and C show that the 80-trial instantaneous subspace shifted gradually and concurrently, not sequentially, toward the all-trial subspaces that would be reached at the end of the delay period (G) and then at the onset of movement (M), indicated by the progressive decreases in principal angle. As shown by Figure 4D, shifting toward the H subspace did not begin until the movement onset (M). To summarize, these changes in principal angles indicate that after shifting briefly toward the subspace present at time the instruction appeared (I), the instantaneous subspace shifted progressively throughout the instruction and delay epochs toward the subspace that would be reached at the time of the go cue (G), then further toward that at the time of movement onset (M), and only thereafter shifted toward the instantaneous subspace that would be present at the time of the hold (H).

      Figure 4E-H show the progression of the first principal angle of the mirror neuron population during observation trials.  Overall, the temporal progression of the MN instantaneous subspace during observation was similar to that found during execution, particularly around times I and H.  The decrease in principal angle relative to the G and M instantaneous subspaces during the delay epoch was less pronounced during observation than during execution.  Nevertheless, these findings support the hypothesis that the condition-dependent subspace of PM MNs shifts progressively over the time course of RGM trials during both execution and observation, as illustrated schematically in Figure 1A.

      We also examined the temporal progression of the instantaneous subspace of AE neurons.  As would be expected given that AE neurons were not modulated significantly during observation trials, in the observation context AE populations had no gradual changes in principal angle (Figure 4 – figure supplement 3).  During execution, however, Figure 4I-L show that the AE populations had a pattern of gradual decrease in principal angle similar to that found in the MN population (Figure 4A-D).  After the instruction onset, the instantaneous subspace shifted quickly away from that present at time I and progressed gradually toward that present at times G and M, only shifting toward that present at time H after movement onset.  As for the PM MN populations, the condition-dependent subspace of the PM AE populations shifted progressively over the time course of execution RGM trials.”

      The related Methods are now described in subsection “Subspace Comparisons—Principal Angles”

      Specific comments: 

      In the methods, it is stated that instantaneous subspaces are found with 3 PCs. Why does it say 2 here?  

      We now have clarified. (lines 295 to 310):

      “The progressive changes in principal angles do not capture another important aspect of condition-dependent neural activity.  The neural trajectories during trials involving different objects separated increasingly as trials progressed in time.  To illustrate this increasing separation, we clipped 100 ms segments of high-dimensional MN population trial-averaged trajectories beginning at times I, G, M, and H, for trials involving each of the four objects.  We then projected the set of four object-specific trajectory segments clipped at each time into each of the four instantaneous 3D subspaces at times I, G, M, and H.  This process was repeated separately for execution trials and for observation trials.  

      For visualization, we projected these trial-averaged trajectory segments from an example session into the PC1 vs PC2 planes (which consistently captured > 70% of the variance) of the I, G, M, or H instantaneous 3D subspaces.  In Figure 5, the trajectory segments for each of the four objects (sphere – purple, button – cyan, coaxial cylinder – magenta, perpendicular cylinder – yellow) sampled at different times (rows) have been projected into each of the four instantaneous subspaces defined at different times (columns).  Rather than appearing knotted as in Figure 3, these short trajectory segments are distinct when projected into each instantaneous subspace.”

      And in the legend for Figure 5 we now clarify that:

      “Each set of these four segments then was projected into the PC1 vs PC2 plane of the instantaneous 3D subspace present at four different times (columns: I, G, M, H).”

      Another doubt on how instantaneous subspaces are computed: in the methods you state that you apply PCA on trial-averaged activity at each 50ms time step. From the next sentence, I gather that you apply PCA on an Nx4 data matrix (N being the number of neurons, and 4 being the trial-averaged activity of the four objects) every 50 ms. Is this right? It would help to explicitly specify the dimensions of the data matrix that goes into PCA computation. 

      We apologize for this confusion.  Although the LSTM decoding was performed in 50 ms time steps, the instantaneous subspaces were calculated at 1 ms intervals. In the Methods we now have clarified (lines 849 to 759):

      “Instantaneous subspace identification 

      Instantaneous neural subspaces were identified at 1 ms intervals.  At each 1 ms time step, the N-dimensional neural firing rates from trials involving the four different objects— sphere, button, coaxial cylinder, and perpendicular cylinder—were averaged separately, providing four points in the N-dimensional space representing the average neural activity for trials involving the different objects at that time step.  PCA then was performed on these four points.  Because three dimensions capture all the variance of four points, three principal component dimensions fully defined each instantaneous subspace.  Each instantaneous 3D subspace can be considered a filter described by a matrix, W, that can project high-dimensional neural activity into a low-dimensional subspace, with the time series of instantaneous subspaces, W_i, forming a time series of filters (Figure 1B).”

      It would help to include some equations in the methods section related to the LSTM decoding. Just to make sure I understood correctly: after having identified the instantaneous subspaces (every 50 ms), you projected the Instruction, Go, Movement, and Holding segments from individual trials (each containing 100 samples, since they are sampled from a 100ms window) onto each instantaneous subspace. So you have four trajectories for each subspace. In the methods, it is stated that a single LSTM classifier is trained for each subspace. Do you also have a separate classifier for each trajectory segment? What is used as input to the classifier? Each trajectory segment should be a 100x3 matrix once projected in an instantaneous subspace. Is that what (each of) the LSTMs take as input? And lastly, what is the LSTM trained to predict exactly? Just a label indicating the type of object that was manipulated in that trial? I apologize if I overlooked any detail, but I believe a clearer explanation of the LSTM, preferably with mathematical formulas, would greatly help readers understand this section. 

      LSTM decoding is not readily described with a set of equations.  However, we have expanded our description to provide the information requested (lines 910 to 937):

      “Decodable information—LSTM

      As illustrated schematically in Figure 1B, the same segment of high-dimensional neural activity projected into different instantaneous subspaces can generate low-dimensional trajectories of varying separation.  The degree of separation among the projected trajectory segments will depend, not only on their separation at the time when the segments were clipped, but also on the similarity of the subspaces into which the trajectory segments are projected.  To quantify the combined effects of trajectory separation and projection into different subspaces, we projected high-dimensional neural trajectory segments (each including 100 points at 1 ms intervals) from successful trials involving each of the four different target objects into time series of 3-dimensional instantaneous subspaces at 50 ms intervals. In each of these instantaneous subspaces, the neural trajectory segment from each trial thus became a 100 point x 3 dimensional matrix.  For each instantaneous subspace in the time series, we then trained a separate long short-term memory (LSTM, (Hochreiter and Schmidhuber, 1997)) classifier to attribute each of the neural trajectories from individual trials to one of the four target object labels: sphere, button, coaxial cylinder, or perpendicular cylinder. Using MATLAB’s Deep Learning Toolbox, each LSTM classifier had 3 inputs (instantaneous subspace dimensions), 20 hidden units in the bidirectional LSTM layer, and a softmax layer preceding the classification layer which had 4 output classes (target objects). The total number of successful trials available in each session for each object is given in Table 1.  To avoid bias based on the total number of successful trials, we used the minimum number of successful trials across the four objects in each session, selecting that number from the total available randomly with replacement. Each LSTM classifier was trained with MATLAB’s adaptive moment estimation (Adam) optimizer on 40% of the selected trials, and the remaining 60% were decoded by the trained classifier.  The success of this decoding was used as an estimate of classification accuracy from 0 (no correct classifications) to 1 (100% correct classifications). This process was repeated 10 times and the mean ± standard deviation across the 10 folds was reported as the classification accuracy at that time.  Classification accuracy of trials projected into each instantaneous subspace at 50 ms intervals was plotted as a function of trial time.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Here are some more specific comments. 

      Abstract. Line 41. "same action" is not justified, there is plenty of evidence showing that the action does not need to be the same (or it has not even to be an action), rephrasing or substituting with "similar" is necessary, especially in the light of the subsequent sentence (which is totally correct). 

      Thank you for pointing this out.  As recommended, we have changed “same” to “similar” (lines 40 to 41):  

      “Many neurons in the premotor cortex show firing rate modulation whether the subject performs an action or observes another individual performing a similar action.”

      Introduction. A relevant, missing reference in the otherwise exhaustive introduction is Albertini et al. 2021 J Neurophysiol, showing that neural dynamics and similarities between biological and nonbiological movements in premotor areas are greater than those between the same executed and observed movements. 

      Thank you for pointing out this important finding.  After revision, we felt it was now cited most appropriately in the revised Discussion as follows (lines 730 to 736):

      “Alternatively, given that observation of another individual can be considered a form of social interaction, PM MN population activity during action observation, rather than representing movements made by another individual similar to one’s own movements, instead may represent different movements one might execute oneself in response to those made by another individual (Ninomiya et al., 2020; Bonini et al., 2022; Ferrucci et al., 2022; Pomper et al., 2023). This possibility is consistent with the finding that the neural dynamics of PM MN populations are more similar during observation of biological versus non-biological movements than during execution versus observation (Albertini et al., 2021)."

      In Line 85, the sentence about Papadourakis and Raos 2019 has to be generalized to PMv, as they show that the proportion of congruent MNs is at chance in both PMd and PMv. 

      Point taken.  We have rephrased this sentence as follows (lines 88 to 89): 

      “And in both PMv and PMd, the proportion of congruent neurons may not be different from that expected by chance alone (Papadourakis and Raos, 2019).”

      Lines 122-132. The initial sentence was unclear to me at first glance. I was wondering how subspaces could be "at other times over the course of the trial" if they are instantaneous. I could imagine that the subspaces referred to corresponding behavioral intervals of execution and observation conditions (and this may be what they will later call "condition dependent" activity), but nevertheless, they could hardly be understood as "instantaneous". I grasped the author's idea only when reading the results, with the statement "no-time dependent variance is captured". The idea is to take a static snapshot of the evolution of population activity at each checkpoint (i.e. I, G, M, and H): I suggest clarifying this point immediately in the introduction to improve readability. 

      We have clarified this point by adding two paragraphs to the Introduction first defining condition independent versus condition-dependent variance and then explaining the use of instantaneous subspaces (lines 125 to 153):

      “A relevant but often overlooked aspect of such dynamics in neuron populations active during both execution and observation has to do with the distinction between condition independent and condition-dependent variation in neuronal activity (Kaufman et al., 2016; Rouse and Schieber, 2018).  The variance in neural activity averaged across all the conditions in a given task context is condition-independent.  For example, in an 8-direction center-out reaching task, averaging a unit’s firing rate as a function of time across all 8 directions may show an initially low firing rate that increases prior to movement onset, peaks during the movement, and then declines during the final hold, irrespective of the movement direction.  Subtracting this condition-independent activity from the unit’s firing rate during each trial gives the remaining variance, and averaging separately across trials in each of the 8 directions then averages out noise variance, leaving the condition-dependent variance that represents the unit’s modulation among the 8 directions (conditions). Alternatively, condition-independent, condition dependent, and noise variance can be partitioned through demixed principal component analysis (Kobak et al., 2016; Gallego et al., 2018).  The extent to which neural dynamics occur in a subspace shared by execution and observation versus subspaces unique to execution or observation may differ for the condition-independent versus condition-dependent partitions of neural activity.  Here, we tested the hypothesis that the condition-dependent activity of PM mirror neuron populations progresses through distinct subspaces during execution versus observation, which would indicate distinct patterns of co-modulation amongst mirror neurons during execution versus observation.

      Because of the complexity of condition-dependent neural trajectories for movements involving the hand, we developed a novel approach.  Rather than examining trajectories over the entire time course of behavioral trials, we identified time series of instantaneous PM mirror neuron subspaces covering the time course of behavioral trials. We identified separate time series for execution trials and for observation trials, both involving four different reach-graspmanipulation (RGM) movements.  Given that each subspace in these time series is instantaneous (a snapshot in time), it captures condition-dependent variance in the neural activity among the four RGM movements while minimizing condition-independent (time dependent) variance.”

      Results. 

      Regarding the execution-observation alignment, as explained in my initial comment, it does not sound convincing. Applying a CCA to align EXE and OBS activities (which the authors had just shown being essentially not aligned), even separately for each epoch segment (line 396), seems to be a trick to show that they nonetheless share some similarities. Couldn't this be applied to any pairs of differently encoded conditions to create some sort of artificial link between them? Is the similarity in the neural data or rather in the method used to realign them? 

      CCA would not align arbitrary sets of neural data.  The similarity is in the data, not in the method.  For example, in an 8-direction center-out task, the neural representation of movement to the 45° target is between the neural representations of the 0° and the 90° targets.  If the same is true in a second data set, then CCA will give high correlation coefficients.  But if in the second data set the neural representation of the 45° target is between the 135° and 180° targets, CCA will give low correlation coefficients. 

      In the end, what does this tell us about the brain? 

      In the Introduction we now clarify that (lines 166 to 170):

      “Such alignment would indicate that the relationships among the trajectory segments in the execution subspace are similar to the relationships among the trajectory segments in the observation subspace, indicating a corresponding structure in the latent dynamic representations of execution and observation movements by the same PM MN population.”

      And in the Results (lines 449 to 455):

      “For example, the trajectories of PMd+M1 neuron populations recorded from two different monkeys during center-out reaching movements could be aligned well (Safaie et al., 2023).  CCA showed, for example, that in both brains the neural trajectory for the movement to the target at 0° was closer to the trajectory for movement to the target at 45° than to the trajectory for the movement to the target at 180°. Relationships among these latent dynamic representations of the eight movements thus were similar even though the neural populations were recorded from two different monkeys.”

      In relation to Figure 8 (lines 461 to 467)

      “But when both sets of trajectory segments are projected into another common subspace identified with CCA, as shown in Figure 8B, a similar relationship among the neural representations of the four movements during execution and observation is revealed.  In both behavioral contexts the neural representation of movements involving the sphere (purple) is now closest to the representation of movements involving the coaxial cylinder (magenta) and farthest from that of movements involving the button (cyan). The two sets of trajectory segments are more or less “aligned.”

      And in the Discussion (lines 665 to 674):

      “Corresponding neural representations of action execution and observation during task epochs with higher neural firing rates have been described previously in PMd MNs and in PMv MNs using representational similarity analysis RSA (Papadourakis and Raos, 2019).  And during force production in eight different directions, neural trajectories of PMd neurons draw similar “clocks” during execution, cooperative execution, and passive observation (Pezzulo et al., 2022).  Likewise in the present study, despite execution and observation trajectories progressing through largely distinct subspaces, in all three monkeys execution and observation trajectory segments showed some degree of alignment, particularly the Movement and Hold segments (Figure 12A), indicating similar relationships among the latent dynamic representations of the four RGM movements during execution and observation.”

      Concerning the discussion, I would like to reconsider it after having seen the authors' response to the comments above and to my general concern about the relevance of the findings from the neurophysiological point of view. 

      Certainly, please do.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Here are a few issues that I want to bring to the authors' attention (in no particular order): 

      • I am not clear on what is meant by "condition-dependent". Is the condition exec vs obs, or the object types? 

      In the Introduction, we now clarify (lines 125 to 144): 

      “A relevant but often overlooked aspect of such dynamics in neuron populations active during both execution and observation has to do with the distinction between condition independent and condition-dependent variation in neuronal activity (Kaufman et al., 2016; Rouse and Schieber, 2018).  The variance in neural activity averaged across all the conditions in a given task context is condition-independent.  For example, in an 8-direction center-out reaching task, averaging a unit’s firing rate as a function of time across all 8 directions may show an initially low firing rate that increases prior to movement onset, peaks during the movement, and then declines during the final hold, irrespective of the movement direction.  Subtracting this condition-independent activity from the unit’s firing rate during each trial gives the remaining variance, and averaging separately across trials in each of the 8 directions then averages out noise variance, leaving the condition-dependent variance that represents the unit’s modulation among the 8 directions (conditions). Alternatively, condition-independent, condition dependent, and noise variance can be partitioned through demixed principal component analysis (Kobak et al., 2016; Gallego et al., 2018).  The extent to which neural dynamics occur in a subspace shared by execution and observation versus subspaces unique to execution or observation may differ for the condition-independent versus condition-dependent partitions of neural activity.  Here, we tested the hypothesis that the condition-dependent activity of PM mirror neuron populations progresses through distinct subspaces during execution versus observation, which would indicate distinct patterns of co-modulation amongst mirror neurons during execution versus observation.”

      And in the Results, we have added a new Figure 3 to illustrate condition-independent versus conditiondependent activity using an example from the present data sets (lines 208 to 236): 

      “Condition-dependent versus condition-independent neural activity in PM MNs

      Whereas a large fraction of condition-dependent neural variance during reaching movements without grasping can be captured in a two-dimensional subspace (Churchland et al., 2012; Ames et al., 2014), condition-dependent activity in movements that involve grasping is more complex (Suresh et al., 2020). In part, this may reflect the greater complexity of controlling the 24 degrees of freedom in the hand and wrist as compared to the 4 degrees of freedom in the elbow and shoulder (Sobinov and Bensmaia, 2021).  Figure 3 illustrates this complexity in a PM MN population during the present RGM movements.  Here, PCA was performed on the activity of a PM MN population across the entire time course of execution trials involving all four objects.  The colored traces in Figure 3A show neural trajectories averaged separately across trials involving each of the four objects and then projected into the PC1 vs PC2 plane of the total neural space.  Most of the variance in these four trajectories is comprised of a shared rotational component.  The black trajectory, obtained by averaging trajectories from trials involving all four objects together, represents this condition-independent (i.e. independent of the object involved) activity.  The condition-dependent (i.e. dependent on which object was involved) variation in activity is reflected by the variation in the colored trajectories around the black trajectory.  The condition-dependent portions can be isolated by subtracting the black trajectory from each of the colored trajectories. The resulting four condition dependent trajectories have been projected into the PC1 vs PC2 plane of their own common subspace in Figure 3B.  Rather than exhibiting a simple rotational motif, these trajectories appear knotted. To better understand how these complex, condition-dependent trajectories progress over the time course of RGM trials, we chose to examine time series of instantaneous subspaces.”

      While there is an emphasis on the higher complexity of manipulating objects compared to just reaching movements in the Abstract, the majority of the analysis relates to the instruction, movement initiation, and grasp, and there is no specific analyses looking at manipulation and how those presumably more complex dynamics compare to the reaching dynamics, and how they differ from reaching in the mirror neurons. 

      We have clarified that (lines 178 to 187):

      “Because we chose to study relatively naturalistic movements, the reach, grasp, and manipulation components were not performed separately, but rather in a continuous fluid motion during the movement epoch of the task sequence (Figure 2B).  In previous studies involving a version of this task without separate instruction and delay epochs, we have shown that joint kinematics, EMG activity, and neuron activity in the primary motor cortex, all vary throughout the movement epoch in relation to both reach location and object grasped, with location predominating early in the movement epoch and object predominating later (Rouse and Schieber, 2015, 2016a, b).  The present task, however, did not dissociate the reach, the hand shape used to grasp the object, and the manipulation performed on the object.”

      • The analysis in Fig3C,D is interesting, however, in my opinion, requires control. For instance, what would these values look like if you projected the segments to a subspace defined by the activity during the entire length of the trial, or if you projected the activity during intertrials, just to get a sense of how meaningful these values are? 

      This material is now presented in Figure 5 – figure supplement 1.  In the legend to this figure supplement, we have clarified that (lines 327 to 328):

      “CS values, which we use only to characterize the phenomenon of trajectory separation,….”

      • MN is used (#85) before definition (#91). Similar for RGM, I believe. 

      Thanks for catching this problem.  We have now defined these abbreviations at first use as follows:

      In lines 89 to 92:

      “Though many authors apply the term mirror neurons strictly to highly congruent neurons, here we will refer to all neurons modulated during both contexts—execution and observation—as mirror neurons (MNs).”

      And in lines 148 to 150:

      We identified separate time series for execution trials and for observation trials, both involving four different reach-grasp-manipulation (RGM) movements.”

      • I believe in the Intro when presenting the three hypotheses, there is a First, and a Third, but no Second. 

      We have revised this part of the Introduction without numbering our hypotheses as follows (lines 145 to 173):

      “Because of the complexity of condition-dependent neural trajectories for movements involving the hand, we developed a novel approach.  Rather than examining trajectories over the entire time course of behavioral trials, we identified time series of instantaneous PM mirror neuron subspaces covering the time course of behavioral trials. We identified separate time series for execution trials and for observation trials, both involving four different reach-graspmanipulation (RGM) movements.  Given that each subspace in these time series is instantaneous (a snapshot in time), it captures condition-dependent variance in the neural activity among the four RGM movements while minimizing condition-independent (time dependent) variance.

      We then tested the hypothesis that the condition-dependent subspace shifts progressively over the time course of behavioral trials (Figure 1A) by calculating the principal angles between four selected instantaneous subspaces that occurred at times easily defined in each behavioral trial—instruction onset (I), go cue (G), movement onset (M), and the beginning of the final hold (H)—and every other instantaneous subspace in the time series.  Initial analyses showed that condition-dependent neural trajectories for the four RGM movements tended to separate increasingly over the course of behavioral trials.  We therefore additionally examined the combined effects of i) the progressively shifting subspaces and ii) the increasing trajectory separation, by decoding neural trajectory segments sampled for 100 msec after times I, G, M, and H and projected into the time series of instantaneous subspaces (Figure 1B).

      Finally, we used canonical correlation to ask whether the prevalent patterns of mirror neuron co-modulation showed similar relationships among the four RGM movements during execution and observation (Figure 1C).  Such alignment would indicate that the relationships among the trajectory segments in the execution subspace are similar to the relationships among the trajectory segments in the observation subspace, indicating a corresponding structure in the latent dynamic representations of execution and observation movements by the same PM MN population.  And finally, because we previously have found that during action execution the activity of PM mirror neurons tends to lead that of non-mirror neurons which are active only during action execution (AE neurons) (Mazurek and Schieber, 2019), we performed parallel analyses of the instantaneous state space of PM AE neurons.”

      • The use of the term 'instantaneous subspaces' in the abstract confused me initially, as I wasn't sure what it meant. It might be a good idea to define or rephrase it. 

      In the Abstract we now state (lines 51 to 52):

      “Rather than following neural trajectories in subspaces that contain their entire time course, we identified time series of instantaneous subspaces …”

      And in the Introduction, we have clarified (lines 145 to 153):

      “Because of the complexity of condition-dependent neural trajectories for movements involving the hand, we developed a novel approach.  Rather than examining trajectories over the entire time course of behavioral trials, we identified time series of instantaneous PM mirror neuron subspaces covering the time course of behavioral trials. We identified separate time series for execution trials and for observation trials, both involving four different reach-graspmanipulation (RGM) movements.  Given that each subspace in these time series is instantaneous (a snapshot in time), it captures condition-dependent variance in the neural activity among the four RGM movements while minimizing condition-independent (time dependent) variance.”

      And in the Methods (lines 849 to 859):

      “Instantaneous subspace identification 

      Instantaneous neural subspaces were identified at 1 ms intervals.  At each 1 ms time step, the N-dimensional neural firing rates from trials involving the four different objects— sphere, button, coaxial cylinder, and perpendicular cylinder—were averaged separately, providing four points in the N-dimensional space representing the average neural activity for trials involving the different objects at that time step.  PCA then was performed on these four points.  Because three dimensions capture all the variance of four points, three principal component dimensions fully defined each instantaneous subspace.  Each instantaneous 3D subspace can be considered a filter described by a matrix, 𝑊, that can project high-dimensional neural activity into a low-dimensional subspace, with the time series of instantaneous subspaces, 𝑊𝑖, forming a time series of filters (Figure 1B).”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) Page 4, lines 127-131. In the introduction, it was not immediately clear to me what you meant by 'separation' and 'decoding' of the projected neural activity. You do mention that you are separating/decoding trajectory segments representing different movements at the end of this paragraph, but at this point of the paper it was not very clear to me what those different movements were (I only understood that after reading the results section). I suggest briefly expanding on these concepts here. 

      To clarify these points in the Introduction, we have expanded exposition of these concepts (lines 145 to 163):

      “Because of the complexity of condition-dependent neural trajectories for movements involving the hand, we developed a novel approach.  Rather than examining trajectories over the entire time course of behavioral trials, we identified time series of instantaneous PM mirror neuron subspaces covering the time course of behavioral trials. We identified separate time series for execution trials and for observation trials, both involving four different reach-graspmanipulation (RGM) movements.  Given that each subspace in these time series is instantaneous (a snapshot in time), it captures condition-dependent variance in the neural activity among the four RGM movements while minimizing condition-independent (time dependent) variance.

      We then tested the hypothesis that the condition-dependent subspace shifts progressively over the time course of behavioral trials (Figure 1A) by calculating the principal angles between four selected instantaneous subspaces that occurred at times easily defined in each behavioral trial—instruction onset (I), go cue (G), movement onset (M), and the beginning of the final hold (H)—and every other instantaneous subspace in the time series.  Initial analyses showed that condition-dependent neural trajectories for the four RGM movements tended to separate increasingly over the course of behavioral trials.  We therefore additionally examined the combined effects of i) the progressively shifting subspaces and ii) the increasing trajectory separation, by decoding neural trajectory segments sampled for 100 msec after times I, G, M, and H and projected into the time series of instantaneous subspaces (Figure 1B).”

      (2) Page 6, line 175. In the methods, it is stated that instantaneous subspaces are found with 3 PCs. Why does it say 2 here? 

      Thank you for noticing this discrepancy.  In the Methods, we have clarified that the instantaneous subspaces are 3-dimensional (see our reply to the next comment), but in Figure 5 (previously Figure 3), for purposes of visualization, we are projecting trajectory segments into the PC1-PC2 plane (lines 295 to 308):

      “The progressive changes in principal angles do not capture another important aspect of condition-dependent neural activity.  The neural trajectories during trials involving different objects separated increasingly as trials progressed in time.  To illustrate this increasing separation, we clipped 100 ms segments of high-dimensional MN population trial-averaged trajectories beginning at times I, G, M, and H, for trials involving each of the four objects.  We then projected the set of four object-specific trajectory segments clipped at each time into each of the four instantaneous 3D subspaces at times I, G, M, and H.  This process was repeated separately for execution trials and for observation trials.  

      For visualization, we projected these trial-averaged trajectory segments from an example session into the PC1 vs PC2 planes (which consistently captured > 70% of the variance) of the I, G, M, or H instantaneous 3D subspaces.  In Figure 5, the trajectory segments for each of the four objects (sphere – purple, button – cyan, coaxial cylinder – magenta, perpendicular cylinder – yellow) sampled at different times (rows) have been projected into each of the four instantaneous subspaces defined at different times (columns).”

      And in the legend for Figure 5 we now clarify that:

      “Each set of these four segments then was projected into the PC1 vs PC2 plane of the instantaneous 3D subspace present at four different times (columns: I, G, M, H).”

      Another doubt on how instantaneous subspaces are computed: in the methods you state that you apply PCA on trial-averaged activity at each 50ms time step. From the next sentence, I gather that you apply PCA on an Nx4 data matrix (N being the number of neurons, and 4 being the trial-averaged activity of the four objects) every 50 ms. Is this right? It would help to explicitly specify the dimensions of the data matrix that goes into PCA computation. 

      Thank you for catching an error: The instantaneous subspaces were computed at 1 ms intervals. (It is the LSTM decoding that was done in 50 ms time steps).  We have clarified how the instantaneous subspaces were computed in the Methods (lines 849 to 859):

      “Instantaneous subspace identification 

      Instantaneous neural subspaces were identified at 1 ms intervals.  At each 1 ms time step, the N-dimensional neural firing rates from trials involving the four different objects— sphere, button, coaxial cylinder, and perpendicular cylinder—were averaged separately, providing four points in the N-dimensional space representing the average neural activity for trials involving the different objects at that time step.  PCA then was performed on these four points.  Because three dimensions capture all the variance of four points, three principal component dimensions fully defined each instantaneous subspace.  Each instantaneous 3D subspace can be considered a filter described by a matrix, 𝑊, that can project high-dimensional neural activity into a low-dimensional subspace, with the time series of instantaneous subspaces, 𝑊𝑖, forming a time series of filters (Figure 1B).”

      (3) Page 7, line 210-212. I am not sure if I missed it in the discussion, but have you speculated on why the greatest separation in observation trials was observed during the holding phase while in execution trials during the movement phase? 

      This was a consistent finding, and we therefore point it out as a difference between execution and observation.  Of course, this reflects greater condition-dependent variance in the PM MN population in the movement epoch than in the hold epoch during execution, whereas the reverse is true during observation.  We have no clear speculation as to why this occurs, however.

      (4) Figure 3. Add a legend with color scheme for each object in panels A and B. Also, please specify what metric is represented by the colorbar of panels C, D, E, F (write it down next to the colorbar itself and not just in the caption). 

      This is now Figure 5.  We have added a color legend for A and B.  Panels C, D, E, and F, now have been moved to Figure 5 – figure supplement 1, where we have indicated that the colorbar represents cumulative separation.

      (5) Page 9, line 228. I found the description of this decoding analysis a bit confusing initially (and perhaps still do), this should be clarified. 

      We have clarified our decoding analysis in the Methods (lines 910 to 937):

      “Decodable information—LSTM

      As illustrated schematically in Figure 1B, the same segment of high-dimensional neural activity projected into different instantaneous subspaces can generate low-dimensional trajectories of varying separation.  The degree of separation among the projected trajectory segments will depend, not only on their separation at the time when the segments were clipped, but also on the similarity of the subspaces into which the trajectory segments are projected.  To quantify the combined effects of trajectory separation and projection into different subspaces, we projected high-dimensional neural trajectory segments (each including 100 points at 1 ms intervals) from successful trials involving each of the four different target objects into time series of 3-dimensional instantaneous subspaces at 50 ms intervals. In each of these instantaneous subspaces, the neural trajectory segment from each trial thus became a 100 point x 3 dimensional matrix.  For each instantaneous subspace in the time series, we then trained a separate long short-term memory (LSTM, (Hochreiter and Schmidhuber, 1997)) classifier to attribute each of the neural trajectories from individual trials to one of the four target object labels: sphere, button, coaxial cylinder, or perpendicular cylinder. Using MATLAB’s Deep Learning Toolbox, each LSTM classifier had 3 inputs (instantaneous subspace dimensions), 20 hidden units in the bidirectional LSTM layer, and a softmax layer preceding the classification layer which had 4 output classes (target objects). The total number of successful trials available in each session for each object is given in Table 1.  To avoid bias based on the total number of successful trials, we used the minimum number of successful trials across the four objects in each session, selecting that number from the total available randomly with replacement. Each LSTM classifier was trained with MATLAB’s adaptive moment estimation (Adam) optimizer on 40% of the selected trials, and the remaining 60% were decoded by the trained classifier.  The success of this decoding was used as an estimate of classification accuracy from 0 (no correct classifications) to 1 (100% correct classifications). This process was repeated 10 times and the mean ± standard deviation across the 10 folds was reported as the classification accuracy at that time.  Classification accuracy of trials projected into each instantaneous subspace at 50 ms intervals was plotted as a function of trial time.”

      (6) Page 9, line 268. This might be trivial, but can you speculate on why the accuracy for Instruction segments had a lower peak compared to the rest of the segments? Is it because there is less 'distinct' information embedded in neural data about the type of object manipulated until you are actually reaching toward it or holding it? The latter seems straightforward, but the former not so much. 

      Thank you for asking this question.  We have added the following speculations (lines 592 to 604): 

      “Short bursts of “signal” related discharge are known to occur in a substantial fraction of PMd neurons beginning at latencies of ~60 ms following an instructional stimulus (Weinrich et al., 1984; Cisek and Kalaska, 2004).  Here we found that the instantaneous subspace shifted briefly toward the subspace present at the time of instruction onset (I), similarly during execution and observation.  This brief trough in principal angle (Figure 4A) and the corresponding peak in classification accuracy (Figure 7A) in part may reflect smoothing of firing rates with a 50 ms Gaussian kernel.  We speculate, however, that the early rise of this peak at the time of instruction onset also reflects the anticipatory activity often seen in PMd neurons in expectation of an instruction, which may not be entirely non-specific, but rather may position the neural population to receive one of a limited set of potential instructions (Mauritz and Wise, 1986). We attribute the relatively low amplitude of peak classification accuracy for Instruction trajectory segments to the likely possibility that only the last 40 ms of our 100 ms Instruction segments captured signal related discharge.”

      (7) Figure 8. Shouldn't the plots in panel A resemble those in Figure 3? Here you are projecting the hold trajectory segments into the subspace at time H, which should be the same as in Fig. 3A/B bottom right panel. 

      The previous Figure 8 is now Figure 8 panels A and B, and the previous Figure 3 is now Figure 5.  The data used in these two figures come from two different recording sessions in two different monkeys. The current Figure 8A,B uses data from monkey F, session 2; whereas Figure 5 uses data from monkey T, session 3, which we now state in the legend to each figure, respectively.  Consequently, the relative arrangement of the trajectory segments in the instantaneous subspace at time H differs.  The session used in Figure 8A,B, which we now show in three dimensions, better illustrates how CCA identifies a common subspace in which execution versus observations segments show alignment (Figure 8B) that was not evident in their original subspaces (Figure 8A).

      (8) Page 14, line 369. Are you computing CCA using only 2 components? I thought the subspaces were 3 dimensional. Why not align all three dimensions? 

      We have expanded this analysis to use all three dimensions, as illustrated in Figure 8 above.

      (9) Page 14, line 407. Does this mean that instantaneous subspaces between execution and observation trials are more similar to each other during the Movement and Holding phase? Is this related to the fact that in those moments there is a smaller progressive shift of the subspaces within execution and observation trials? 

      Our new analyses of principal angles (see our reply to your comment 11, below) show that the progressive shifting of the instantaneous subspace continues through the movement and hold epochs.  We now discuss this better alignment of the Movement and Hold trajectory segments as follows (lines 656 to 664):

      “Given the complexity of condition-dependent neural trajectories across the entire time course of RGM trials (Figure 3B), rather than attempting to align entire neural trajectories, we applied canonical correlation to trajectory segments clipped for 100 ms following four well defined behavioral events: Instruction onset, Go cue, Movement onset, and the beginning of the final Hold.  In all cases, alignment was poorest for Instruction segments, somewhat higher for Go segments, and strongest for Movement and Hold segments.  This progressive increase in alignment likely reflects a progressive increase in the difference between average neuron firing rates for trials involving different objects (Figure 6) relative to the trial-by-trial variance in firing rate for a given object.”

      (10) page 15, line 431. Typo, it should be Table 3. 

      We have removed Table 3 which no longer applies.

      (11) A more general observation: did you try to compute another metric to assess the progressive shift of subspaces over time? I am thinking of something like computing the principal angles between consecutive subspaces. If it is true that the shifts happen over time, but it slows down during movement and hold, you should be able to conclude it from principal angles as well. Am I missing something? Is there any reason you went with classification accuracy instead of a metric like this?  

      Point taken.  We now have calculated the principal angles as a function of time and have presented them as a new section of the Results including new Figure 4 and Figure 4 – figure supplement 3 (lines 237 to 293). 

      “Instantaneous subspaces shift progressively during both execution and observation 

      We identified an instantaneous subspace at each one millisecond time step of RGM trials.  At each time step, we applied PCA to the 4 instantaneous neural states (i.e. the 4 points on the neural trajectories representing trials involving the 4 different objects each averaged across 20 trials per object, totaling 80 trials), yielding a 3-dimensional subspace at that time (see Methods).  Note that because these 3-dimensional subspaces are essentially instantaneous, they capture the condition-dependent variation in neural states, but not the common, condition-independent variation.  To examine the temporal progression of these instantaneous subspaces, we then calculated the principal angles between each 80-trial instantaneous subspace and the instantaneous subspaces averaged across all trials at four behavioral time points that could be readily defined across trials, sessions, and monkeys: the onset of the instruction (I), the go cue (G), the movement onset (M), and the beginning of the final hold (H).  This process was repeated 10 times with replacement to assess the variability of the principal angles.  The closer the principal angles are to 0°, the closer the two subspaces are to being identical; the closer to 90°, the closer the two subspaces are to being orthogonal.  

      Figure 4A-D illustrate the temporal progression of the first principal angle of the mirror neuron population in the three sessions (red, green, and blue) from monkey R during execution trials. As illustrated in Figure 4 – figure supplement 1 (see also the related Methods), in each session all three principal angles, each of which could range from 0° to 90°, tended to follow a similar time course.  In the Results we therefore illustrate only the first (i.e. smallest) principal angle.  Solid traces represent the mean across 10-fold cross validation using the 80-trial subsets of all the available trials; shading indicates ±1 standard deviation.  As would be expected, the instantaneous subspace using 80 trials approaches the subspace using all trials at each of the four selected times—I, G, M, and H—indicated by the relatively narrow trough dipping toward 0°.  Of greater interest are the slower changes in the first principal angle in between these four time points.  Figure 4A shows that after instruction onset (I) the instantaneous subspace shifted quickly away from the subspace at time I, indicated by a rapid increase in principal angle to levels not much lower than what might be expected by chance alone (horizontal dashed line). In contrast, throughout the remainder of the instruction and delay epochs (from I to G), Figure 4B and C show that the 80-trial instantaneous subspace shifted gradually and concurrently, not sequentially, toward the all-trial subspaces that would be reached at the end of the delay period (G) and then at the onset of movement (M), indicated by the progressive decreases in principal angle. As shown by Figure 4D, shifting toward the H subspace did not begin until the movement onset (M). To summarize, these changes in principal angles indicate that after shifting briefly toward the subspace present at time the instruction appeared (I), the instantaneous subspace shifted progressively throughout the instruction and delay epochs toward the subspace that would be reached at the time of the go cue (G), then further toward that at the time of movement onset (M), and only thereafter shifted toward the instantaneous subspace that would be present at the time of the hold (H).

      Figure 4E-H show the progression of the first principal angle of the mirror neuron population during observation trials.  Overall, the temporal progression of the MN instantaneous subspace during observation was similar to that found during execution, particularly around times I and H.  The decrease in principal angle relative to the G and M instantaneous subspaces during the delay epoch was less pronounced during observation than during execution.  Nevertheless, these findings support the hypothesis that the condition-dependent subspace of PM MNs shifts progressively over the time course of RGM trials during both execution and observation, as illustrated schematically in Figure 1A.

      We also examined the temporal progression of the instantaneous subspace of AE neurons.  As would be expected given that AE neurons were not modulated significantly during observation trials, in the observation context AE populations had no gradual changes in principal angle (Figure 4 – figure supplement 3).  During execution, however, Figure 4I-L show that the AE populations had a pattern of gradual decrease in principal angle similar to that found in the MN population (Figure 4A-D).  After the instruction onset, the instantaneous subspace shifted quickly away from that present at time I and progressed gradually toward that present at times G and M, only shifting toward that present at time H after movement onset.  As for the PM MN populations, the condition-dependent subspace of the PM AE populations shifted progressively over the time course of execution RGM trials.”

      The related Methods are now described is subsection “Subspace Comparisons—Principal Angles”

      Is there any reason you went with classification accuracy instead of a metric like this? 

      We now point out that (lines 295 to 297):

      “The progressive changes in principal angles do not capture another important aspect of condition-dependent neural activity.  The neural trajectories during trials involving different objects separated increasingly as trials progressed in time.”

      And we further clarify this as follows (lines 331 to 348):

      “Decodable information changes progressively during both execution and observation 

      As RGM trials proceeded in time, the condition-dependent neural activity of the PM MN population thus changed in two ways.  First, the instantaneous condition-dependent subspace shifted, indicating that the patterns of firing-rate co-modulation among neurons representing the four different RGM movements changed progressively, both during execution and during observation.  Second, as firing rates generally increased, the neural trajectories representing the four RGM movements became progressively more separated, more so during execution than during observation. 

      To evaluate the combined effects of these two progressive changes, we clipped 100 ms single-trial trajectory segments beginning at times I, G, M, or H, and projected these trajectory segments from individual trials into the instantaneous 3D subspaces at 50 ms time steps.  At each of these time steps, we trained a separate LSTM decoder to classify individual trials according to which of the four objects was involved in that trial.  We expected that the trajectory segments would be classified most accurately when projected into instantaneous subspaces near the time at which the trajectory segments were clipped.  At other times we reasoned that classification accuracy would depend both on the similarity of the current instantaneous subspace to that found at the clip time as evaluated by the principal angle (Figure 4), and on the separation of the four trajectories at the clip time (Figure 5).”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the reviewers for their careful and overall positive evaluation of our work and the constructive feedback! To address the main concerns, we have:

      – Clarified a major misunderstanding of our instructions: Participants were only informed that they would receive different stimuli of medium intensity and were thus not aware that the stimulation temperature remained constant

      – Implemented a new analysis to evaluate how participants rated their expectation and pain levels in the control condition

      – Added a paragraph in the discussion in which we argue that our paradigm is comparable to previous studies

      Below, we provide responses to each of the reviewers’ comments on our manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:  

      In this important paper, the authors investigate the temporal dynamics of expectation of pain using a combined fMRI-EEG approach. More specifically, by modifying the expectations of higher or lower pain on a trial-to-trial basis, they report that expectations largely share the same set of activations before the administration of the painful stimulus, and that the coding of the valence of the stimulus is observed only after the nociceptive input has been presented. fMRIinformed EEG analysis suggested that the temporal sequence of information processing involved the Dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC), the anterior insula, and the anterior cingulate cortex. The strength of evidence is convincing, and the methods are solid, but a few alternative interpretations about the findings related to the control group, as well as a more in-depth discussion on the correlations between the BOLD and EEG signals would strengthen the manuscript. 

      Thank you for your positive evaluation! In the revised version of the manuscript, we elaborated on the control condition and the BOLD-EEG correlations in more detail.

      Strengths:  

      In line with open science principles, the article presents the data and the results in a complete and transparent fashion. 

      From a theoretical standpoint, the authors make a step forward in our understanding of how expectations modulate pain by introducing a combination of spatial and temporal investigation. It is becoming increasingly clear that our appraisal of the world is dynamic, guided by previous experiences, and mapped on a combination of what we expect and what we get. New research methods, questions, and analyses are needed to capture these evolving processes.  

      Thank you very much for these positive comments!

      Weaknesses:  

      The control condition is not so straightforward. Across the manuscript it is defined as "no expectation", and in the legend of Figure 1 it is mentioned that the third state would be "no prediction". However, it is difficult to conceive that participants would not have any expectations or predictions. Indeed, in the description of the task it is mentioned that participants were instructed that they would receive stimuli during "intermediate sensitive states". The results of the pain scores and expectations might support the idea that the control condition is situated in between the placebo and nocebo conditions. However, since this control condition was not part of the initial conditioning, and participants had no reference to previous stimuli, one might expect that some ratings might have simply "regressed to the mean" for a lack of previous experience. 

      General considerations and reflections:  

      Inducing expectations in the desired direction is not a straightforward task, and results might depend on the exact experimental conditions and the comparison group. In this sense, the authors' choice of having 3 groups of positive, negative, and "neutral" expectations is to be praised. On the other hand, also control groups form their expectations, and this can constitute a confounder in every experiment using expectation manipulation, if not appropriately investigated. 

      Thank you for raising these important concerns! Firstly, as it seems that we did not explain the experimental procedure in a clear fashion, there appeared to be a general misunderstanding regarding our instructions. We want to emphasize that we did not tell participants that the stimulus intensity would always be the same, but that pain stimuli would be different temperatures of medium intensity. Furthermore, our instruction did not necessarily imply that our algorithm detected a state of medium sensitivity, but that the algorithm would not make any prediction, e.g., due to highly fluctuating states of pain sensitivity, or no clear-cut state of high or low pain sensitivity. We changed this in the Methods (ll. 556-560, 601-606, 612-614) and Results (ll. 181-192) sections of the manuscript to clarify these important features of our procedure.

      Then, we absolutely agree that participants explicitly and implicitly form expectations regarding all conditions over time, including the control condition. We carefully considered your feedback and rephrased the control condition, no longer framing it as eliciting “no expectations” but as “neutral expectations” in the revised version of the manuscript. This follows the more common phrasing in the literature and acknowledges that participants indeed build up expectations in the control condition. However, we do still think that we can meaningfully compare the placebo and nocebo condition to the control condition to investigate the neuronal underpinnings of expectation effects. Independently of whether participants build up an expectation of “medium” intensities in the control condition, which caused them to perceive stimuli in line with this expectation, or if they simply perceived the stimuli as they were (of medium intensity) with limited effects of expectations, the crucial difference to the placebo and nocebo conditions is that there was no alteration of perception due to previous experiences or verbal information and no shift of perception from the actual stimulus intensity towards any direction in the control condition. This allowed us to compare the neural basis of a modulation of pain perception in either direction to a condition in which this modulation did not take place. 

      Author response image 1.

      Variability within conditions over time. Relative variability index for expectation (left) and pain ratings (right) per condition and measurement block. 

      Lastly, we want to highlight that our finding of the control condition being rated in between the placebo and nocebo condition is in line with many previous studies that included similar control conditions and advanced our understanding of pain-related expectations (Bingel et al., 2011; Colloca et al., 2010; Shih et al., 2019). We thank the reviewer for the very interesting idea to evaluate the development of ratings in the control condition in more detail and added a new analysis to the manuscript in which we compared how much intra-subject variance was within the ratings of each of the three conditions and how much this variance changed over time. For this aim, we computed the relative variability index (Mestdagh et al., 2018), a measure that quantifies intra-subject variation over multiple ratings, and compared between the three conditions and the three measurement blocks. We observed differences in variances between conditions for both expectation (F(2,96) = 8.14, p < .001) and pain ratings (F(2,96) = 3.41, p = .037). For both measures, post-hoc tests revealed that there was significantly more variance in the placebo compared to the control condition (both p_holm < .05), but no difference between control and nocebo. The substantial and comparable variation in pain and expectation ratings in all three conditions (or at least between control and nocebo) shows that participants did not always expect and perceive the same intensity within conditions. Variance in expectation ratings decreased from the first block compared to the other two blocks (_F(1.35,64.64) = 5.69, p = .012; both p_holm < .05), which was not the case for pain ratings. Most importantly, there was no interaction effect of block and condition for neither expectation (_F(2.65,127.06) = 0.40, p = .728) nor pain ratings (F(4,192) = 0.48, p = .748), which implies that expectations were similarly dynamically updated in all conditions over the course of the experiment. This speak against a “regression to the mean” in the control condition and shows that control ratings fluctuated from trial to trial. We included this analysis and a more in-depth discussion of the choice of conditions in the Result (ll. 219-232) and Discussion (ll. 452-486) sections of the revised manuscript.

      In addition, although fMRI is still (probably) the best available tool we have to understand the spatial representation of cortical processing, limitations about not only the temporal but even the spatial resolution should be acknowledged. Given the anatomical and physiological complexity of the cortical connections, as we know from the animal world, it is still well possible that subcircuits are activated also for positive and negative expectations, but cannot be observed due to the limitation of our techniques. Indeed, on an empirical/evolutionary basis it would remain unclear why we should have a system that waits for the valence of a stimulus to show differential responses. 

      We agree that the spatial resolution of fMRI is limited and that our signal is often not able to dissociate different subcircuits. Whether on this basis differential processes occurred cannot be observed in fMRI but is indeed possible. We now include this reasoning in our Discussion (ll. 373-377):

      “Importantly, the spatial resolution of fMRI is limited when it comes to discriminating whether the same pattern of activity is due to identical activation or to activation in different sub-circuits within the same area. Nonetheless, the overlap of areas is an indicator for similar processes involved in a more general preparation process.

      Also, moving in a dimension of network and graph theory, one would not expect single areas to be responsible for distinct processes, but rather that they would integrate information in a shared way, potentially with different feedback and feedforward communications. As such, it becomes more difficult to assume the insula is a center for coding potential pain, perhaps more of a node in a system that signals potential dangers for the integrity of the body. 

      We appreciate the feedback on our interpretation of our results and agree that the overall network activity most likely determines how a large part of expectations and pain are coded. We therefore adjusted the Discussion, embedding the results in an interpretation considering networks (ll. 427-430, 432-435,438-442 ). 

      The authors analyze the EEG signal between 0.5 to 128 Hz, finding significant results in the correlation between single-trial BOLD and EEG activity in the higher gamma range (see Figure 6 panel C). It would be interesting to understand the rationale for including such high frequencies in the signal, and the interpretation of the significant correlation in the high gamma range. 

      On a technical level, we adapted our EEG processing pipeline from Hipp et al. (2011) who similarly investigated signals up to 128 Hz. Of note, the spectral smoothing was adjusted to match 3/4 octave, meaning that the frequency resolution at 128 Hz is rather broad and does not only contain oscillations at 128 Hz sharp. Gamma oscillations in general have repeatedly been reported in relation to pain and feedforward signals reflecting noxious information (e.g. Ploner et al., 2017; Strube et al., 2021). Strube et al. (2021) reported the highest effects of pain stimulus intensity and prediction error processing at high gamma frequencies (100 and 98 Hz, respectively). These findings could also serve as basis to interpret our results in this frequency range: If anticipatory activation in the ACC is linked to high gamma oscillations, which appear to play an important role in feedforward signaling of pain intensity and prediction errors, this could indicate that later processing of intensity in this area is already pre-modulated before the stimulus actually occurs. Of note: although not significant, it looks as if the cluster extends further into pain processing on a descriptive level. We added additional explanation regarding the interpretation of the correlation in the Discussion (ll. 414425):

      “The link between anticipatory activity in the ACC and EEG oscillatory activity was observed in the high gamma band, which is consistent with findings that demonstrate a connection between increased fMRI BOLD signals and a relative shift from lower to higher frequencies (Kilner et al., 2005). Gamma oscillations have been repeatedly reported in the context of pain and expectations and have been interpreted as reflecting feedforward signals of noxious information ( e.g. Ploner et al., 2017; Strube et al., 2021). In combination with our findings, this might imply that high frequency oscillations may not only signal higher actual or perceived pain intensity during pain processing (Nickel et al., 2022; Ploner et al., 2017; Strube et al., 2021; Tu et al., 2016), but might also be instrumental in the transfer of directed expectations from anticipation into pain processing.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):  

      I think this is a very promising paper. The combination of EEG and fMRI is unique and original. However, I also have some suggestions that I think could help improve the manuscript. 

      This manuscript reports the findings of an EEG-fMRI study (n = 50) on the effects of expectations on pain. The combination of EEG with fMRI is extremely original and well-suited to study the transition from expectation to perception. However, I think that the current treatment of the data, as well as the way that the manuscript is currently written, does not fully capitalize on the potential of this unique dataset. Several findings are presented but there is currently no clear message coming out of this manuscript. 

      First, one positive point is that the experimental manipulation clearly worked. However, it should be noted that the instructions used are not typical of studies on placebo/nocebo. Participants were not told that the stimulations would be of higher/lower intensity. Rather, they were told that objective intensities were held constant, but that EEG recordings could be used to predict whether they would perceive the stimulus as more or less intense. I think that this is an interesting way to manipulate expectations, but there could have been more justification in the introduction for why the authors have chosen this unusual procedure. 

      Most importantly, we again want to emphasize again that participants were not aware that the stimulation temperature was always the same but were informed that they would receive different stimuli of medium intensity. We now clarify this in the revised Results (ll. 190-192) and Methods (ll. 612-614) sections.

      While we agree that our procedure was not typical, we do not think that the manipulation is not comparable to previous studies on pain-related expectations. To our knowledge, either expectations regarding a treatment that changes pain perception (treatment expectancy) or expectations regarding stimulus intensities (stimulus expectancy) are manipulated (see Atlas & Wager, 2014). In our study, participants received a cue that induced expectations in regard to a ”treatment”, although in this case the “treatment” came from changes in their own brain activity. This is comparable to studies using TENS-devices that are supposedly changing peripheral pain transmission (Skvortsova et al., 2020). Thus, although not typical, our paradigm could be classified as targeting treatment expectancies and allowed us to examine effects on a trial-by-trial level within subjects. We added a paragraph regarding the comparability of our paradigm with previous studies in the Discussion of the revised manuscript (ll. 452-464) .

      Also, the introduction mentions that little is known about potential cerebral differences between expectations of high vs. low pain expectations. I think the fear conditioning literature could be cited here. Activations in ACC, SMA, Ins, parahippocampal gyrus, PAG, etc. are often associated with upcoming threat, whereas activations vmPFC/default mode network are associated with safety. 

      We thank you for your suggestions to add literature on fear conditioning. We agree there is some overlap between fear conditioning and expectation effects in humans, but we also believe there are fundamental differences regarding their underlying processes and paradigms. E.g. the expectation effects are not driven by classical learning algorithms but act in a large amount as self-fulfilling prophecies (see e.g. Jepma et al., 2018). However, we now acknowledge the similarities e.g in the recruitment of the insula and the vmPFC of the modalities in our Introduction (ll. 132-136 ).

      The fact that the authors didn't observe a clearer distinction between high and low expectations here could be related to their specific instructions that imply that the stimulus is the same and that it is the subjective perception that is expected to change. In any case, this is a relatively minor issue that is easy to address. 

      We apologize again for the lack of clarity in our instructions: Participants were unaware that they would receive the exact same stimulus. The clear effects of the different conditions on expectation and pain ratings also challenge the notion that participants always expected the same level of stimulation and/or perception. Additionally, if participants were indeed expecting a consistent level of intensity in all conditions, one would also assume to see the same anticipatory activation in the control condition as in the placebo and nocebo conditions, which is not the case. Thus, we respectfully disagree that the common effects might be explained by our instructions but would argue that they indeed reflect common (anticipatory) processes of positive and negative expectations.

      Towards the end of the introduction, the authors present the aims of the study in mainly exploratory terms: 

      (1) What are the differences between anticipation and perception? 

      (2) What regions display a difference between high and low expectations (high > low or low < high) vs. an effect of expectation regardless of the direction (high and low different than neutral)? 

      I think these are good questions, but the authors should provide more justification, or framework, for these questions. More specifically, what will they be able to conclude based on their observations? 

      For instance (note that this is just an example to illustrate my point. I encourage the authors to come up with their own framework/predictions) : 

      (1) Possibility #1: A certain region encodes expectations in a directed fashion (high > low) and that same region also responds to perception in the same direction (high > low). This region would therefore modulate pain by assimilating perception towards expectations. 

      (2) Possibility # 2: different regions are involved in expectation and perception. Perhaps this could mean that certain regions influence pain processing through descending facilitation for instance...  

      Thank you for pointing out that our hypotheses were not crafted carefully enough. We tried to give better explanations for the possible interpretations of our hypotheses. Additionally, we interpreted our results on the background of a broader framework for placebo and nocebo effects (predictive coding) to derive possible functions of the described brain areas. We embedded this in our Introduction (ll. 74-86, 158-175 ) and Discussion (ll. 384-388 ), interpreting the anticipatory activity and the activity during pain processing in the context of expectation formation as described in Büchel et al. (2014).

      Interpretation derived from our framework (ll. 384-388):

      e.g.: “Following the framework of predictive coding, our results would suggest that the DPMS is the network responsible for integrating ascending signals with descending signals in the pain domain and that this process is similar for positive and negative valences during anticipation of pain but differentiates during pain processing.”

      Regarding analyses, I think that examining the transition from expectations to perception is a strong angle of the manuscript given the EGG-fMRI nature of the study. However, I feel that more could have been done here. One problem is that the sequence of analyses starts by identifying an fMRI signal of interest and then attempts to find its EEG correlates. The problem is that the low temporal resolution of fMRI makes it difficult to differentiate expectation from perception, which doesn't make this analysis a good starting point in my opinion. Why not start by identifying an EEG signal that differentiates perception vs expectation, and then look for its fMRI correlates?  

      We appreciate your feedback on the transition from expectations to perceptions and also think that additional questions could be answered with our data set. However, based on the literature we had specific hypotheses regarding specific brain areas, and we therefore decided to start from the fMRI data with the superior spatial resolution and EEG was used to focus on the temporal dynamics within the areas important for anticipatory processes. We share the view that many different approaches in analyzing our data are possible. On the other hand, identifying relevant areas based on EEG characteristics inherits even more uncertainty due to the spatial filtering of the EEG signal. For the research question of this study a more accurate evaluation of the involved areas and the related representation was more important. We therefore decided to only implement the procedure already present in the manuscript. 

      Finally, I found the hypotheses on "valenced" vs. "absolute" effects a little bit more difficult to follow. This is because "neutral" is not really neutral: it falls in between low and high. If I follow correctly, participants know that the temperature is always the same. Therefore, if they are told that the machine cannot predict whether their perception is going to be low or high, then it must be because it is likely to be in between. Ratings of expectation and pain ratings confirm that. The neutral condition is not "devoid" of expectations as the authors suggest.

      Therefore, it would make sense to look at regions with the following pattern low > neutral > high, or vice-versa, low < neutral < high. Low & high being different than neutral is more difficult to interpret. I don't think that you can say that it reflects "absolute" expectations because neutral is also the expectation of a medium temperature. Perhaps it reflects "certainty/uncertainty" or something like that, but it is not clear that it reflects "expectations". 

      Thank you for your valuable feedback! We considered your concerns about the interpretation of our results and completely agree that the control condition cannot be interpreted as void of expectations (ll. 119-123). We therefore evaluated the control condition in more detail in a separate analysis (ll. 219-232) and integrated a new assessment of the conditions into the Discussion (ll. 465-486). We changed the phrasing of our control condition to “neutral expectations”, as we agree that the control condition is not void of expectations and this phrasing is more in line with other studies (e.g. Colloca et al., 2010; Freeman et al., 2015; Schmid et al., 2015). We would argue that the neutral expectations can still be meaningfully compared to positive and negative expectations because only the latter shift expectations and perception in one direction. Thus, we changed our wording throughout the manuscript to acknowledge that we indeed did not test for general effects of expectations vs. no expectations, but for effects of directed expectations. Please also see our reasoning regarding the control condition in response to Reviewer 1, in which we addressed the interpretation of the control condition. We therefore still believe that the contrasts that we calculated between conditions are valid. The proposed new contrast largely overlaps with our differential contrast low>high and vice versa already reported in the manuscript (for additional results also see Supplements).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure 6, panel C. The figure mentions Anterior Cingulate Cortex R, whereas the legend mentions left ACC. Please check. 

      Thanks for catching this, we changed the figure legend accordingly.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):  

      - I don't think that activity during the rating of expectations is easily interpretable. I think I would recommend not reporting it. 

      The majority of participants completed the expectation rating relatively quickly (M = 2.17 s, SD = 0.35 s), which resulted in the overlap between the DLPFC EEG cluster and the expectation rating encompassing only a limited portion of the cluster (~ 1 s). We agree that this activity still is more difficult to interpret, yet we have decided to report it for reasons of completeness.

      - The effects on SIIPS are interesting. I think that it is fine to present them as a "validation" of what was observed with pain ratings, but it also seems to give a direction to the analyses that the authors don't end up following. For instance, why not try other "signatures" like the NPS or signatures of pain anticipation? Also, why not try to look at EEG correlates of SIIPS? I don't think that the authors "need" to do any of that, but I just wanted to let them know that SIIPS results may stir that kind of curiosity in the readers.  

      While this would be indeed very interesting, these additional analyses are not directly related to our current research question. We fear that too many analyses could be confusing for the readers. Nonetheless, we are grateful for your suggestion and will implement additional brain signatures in future studies. 

      - The shock was calibrated to be 60%. Why not have high (70%) and low (30%) conditions at equal distances from neutral, like 80% and 40% for instance? The current design makes it hard to distinguish high from control. Perhaps the "common" effects of high + low are driven by a deactivation for low (30%)?  

      We appreciate your feedback! We adjusted the temperature during the test phase to counteract habituation typically happening with heat stimuli. We believe that this was a good measure as participants rated the control condition at roughly VAS 50 (M = 51.40) which was our target temperature and then would be equidistant to the VAS 70 and VAS 30 during conditioning when no habituation should have taken place yet. We further tested whether participants rated placebo and nocebo trials at equal distances from the control condition and found no existent bias for either of the conditions. To do this, we computed the individual placebo effect (control minus placebo) and nocebo effect (nocebo minus control) for each participant during the test phase and statistically compared whether they differed in terms of magnitude. There was no significant difference between placebo and nocebo effects for both expectation (placebo effect M = 14.25 vs. nocebo effect M = 17.22, t(49) = 1.92, p = .061) and pain ratings (placebo effect M = 6.52 vs. nocebo effect M = 5.40, t(49) = -1.11, p = .274). This suggests that our expectation manipulation resulted in comparable shifts in expectation and pain ratings away from the control condition for both the placebo and nocebo condition and thus hints against any bias of the conditioning temperatures. Please also note that the analysis of the common effects was masked for differences of the high and low, therefore the effects cannot be driven by one condition by itself.

      - If I understand correctly, all fMRI contrasts were thresholded with FWE. This is fine, but very strict. The authors could have opted for FDR. Maybe I missed something here....  

      While it is true that FDR is the more liberal approach, it is not valid for spatially correlated fMRI data and is no longer available in SPM for the correction of multiple comparisons. The newly implemented topological peak based FDR correction is comparably sensitive with the FWE correction (see. Chumbley et al. BELEG). We opted for the slightly more conservative approach in our preregistration (_p_FWE < .05), therefore a change of the correction is not possible.

      Altogether, I think that this is a great study. The combination of EEG and fMRI is truly unique and affords many opportunities to examine the transition from expectations to perception. The experimental manipulation of expectations seems to have worked well, and there seem to be very promising results. However, I think that more could have been done. At least, I would recommend trying to give more of a theoretical framework to help interpret the results.  

      We are very grateful for your positive feedback. We took your suggestion seriously and tried to implement a more general framework from the literature (see Büchel et al., 2014) to provide a better explanation for our results.

      References

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      Bingel, U., Wanigasekera, V., Wiech, K., Ni Mhuircheartaigh, R., Lee, M. C., Ploner, M., & Tracey, I. (2011). The effect of treatment expectation on drug efficacy: Imaging the analgesic benefit of the opioid remifentanil. Science Translational Medicine, 3(70), 70ra14. https://doi.org/10.1126/scitranslmed.3001244

      Büchel, C., Geuter, S., Sprenger, C., & Eippert, F. (2014). Placebo analgesia: A predictive coding perspective. Neuron, 81(6), 1223–1239. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2014.02.042

      Colloca, L., Petrovic, P., Wager, T. D., Ingvar, M., & Benedetti, F. (2010). How the number of learning trials affects placebo and nocebo responses. Pain, 151(2), 430–439. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.pain.2010.08.007

      Freeman, S., Yu, R., Egorova, N., Chen, X., Kirsch, I., Claggett, B., Kaptchuk, T. J., Gollub, R. L., & Kong, J. (2015). Distinct neural representations of placebo and nocebo effects. NeuroImage, 112, 197–207. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2015.03.015

      Hipp, J. F., Engel, A. K., & Siegel, M. (2011). Oscillatory synchronization in large-scale cortical networks predicts perception. Neuron, 69(2), 387–396. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2010.12.027

      Jepma, M., Koban, L., van Doorn, J., Jones, M., & Wager, T. D. (2018). Behavioural and neural evidence for self-reinforcing expectancy effects on pain. Nature Human Behaviour, 2(11), 838–855. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-018-0455-8

      Kilner, J. M., Mattout, J., Henson, R., & Friston, K. J. (2005). Hemodynamic correlates of EEG: A heuristic. NeuroImage, 28(1), 280–286. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2005.06.008

      Nickel, M. M., Tiemann, L., Hohn, V. D., May, E. S., Gil Ávila, C., Eippert, F., & Ploner, M. (2022). Temporal-spectral signaling of sensory information and expectations in the cerebral processing of pain. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 119(1). https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2116616119

      Ploner, M., Sorg, C., & Gross, J. (2017). Brain Rhythms of Pain. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 21(2), 100–110. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tics.2016.12.001

      Schmid, J., Bingel, U., Ritter, C., Benson, S., Schedlowski, M., Gramsch, C., Forsting, M., & Elsenbruch, S. (2015). Neural underpinnings of nocebo hyperalgesia in visceral pain: A fMRI study in healthy volunteers. NeuroImage, 120, 114–122. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2015.06.060

      Shih, Y.‑W., Tsai, H.‑Y., Lin, F.‑S., Lin, Y.‑H., Chiang, C.‑Y., Lu, Z.‑L., & Tseng, M.‑T. (2019). Effects of Positive and Negative Expectations on Human Pain Perception Engage Separate But Interrelated and Dependently Regulated Cerebral Mechanisms. Journal of Neuroscience, 39(7), 1261–1274. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.2154-18.2018

      Skvortsova, A., Veldhuijzen, D. S., van Middendorp, H., Colloca, L., & Evers, A. W. M. (2020). Effects of Oxytocin on Placebo and Nocebo Effects in a Pain Conditioning Paradigm: A Randomized Controlled Trial. The Journal of Pain, 21(3-4), 430–439. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jpain.2019.08.010

      Strube, A., Rose, M., Fazeli, S., & Büchel, C. (2021). The temporal and spectral characteristics of expectations and prediction errors in pain and thermoception. ELife, 10. https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.62809

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      (1) The notion of a “root” causal gene - which the authors define based on a graph theoretic notion of topologically sorting graphs - requires a graph that is directed and acyclic. It is the latter that constitutes an important weakness here - it simply is a large simplification of human biology to draw out a DAG including hundreds of genes and a phenotype Y and to claim that the true graph contains no cycles.

      We agree that real causal graphs in biology often contain cycles. We now include additional experimental results with cyclic directed graphs in the Supplementary Materials. RCSP outperformed the other algorithms even in this setting, but we caution the reader that the theoretical interpretation of the RCS score may not coincide with a root causal effect when cycles exist:

      “We also evaluated the algorithms on directed graphs with cycles. We generated a linear SEM over ρ + 1 = 1000 variables in . We sampled the coefficient matrix β from a Bernoulli (1/(p − 1)) distribution but did not restrict the non-zero coefficients to the upper triangular portion of the matrix. We then proceeded to permute the variable ordering and weight each entry as in the Methods for the DAG. We repeated this procedure 30 times and report the results in Supplementary Figure 3.

      RCSP again outperformed all other algorithms even in the cyclic case. The results suggest that conditioning on the surrogate ancestors also estimates the RCS well even in the cyclic case. However, we caution that an error term E<sub>i</sub> can affect the ancestors of when cycles exist. As a result, the RCS may not isolate the causal effect of the error term and thus not truly coincide with the notion of a root causal effect in cyclic causal graphs.”

      (2) I also encourage the authors to consider more carefully when graph structure learned from Perturb-seq can be ported over to bulk RNA-seq. Presumably this structure is not exactly correct - to what extent is the RCSP algorithm sensitive to false edges in this graph? This leap - from cell line to primary human cells - is also not modeled in the simulation. Although challenging - it would be ideal for the RCSP to model or reflect the challenges in correctly identifying the regulatory structure.

      We now include additional experimental results, where we gradually increased the incongruence between the DAG modeling the Perturb-seq and the DAG modeling the bulk RNA-seq using a mixture of graphs. The performance of RCSP degraded gradually, rather than abruptly, with increasing incongruence. We therefore conclude that RCSP is robust to differences between the causal graphs representing Perturb-seq and bulk RNA-seq:

      “We next assessed the performance of RCSP when the DAG underlying the Perturb-seq data differs from the DAG underlying the bulk RNA-seq data. We considered a mixture of two random DAGs in bulk RNA-seq, where one of the DAGs coincided with the Perturb-seq DAG and second alternate DAG did not. We instantiated and simulated samples from each DAG as per the previous subsection. We generated 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% of the bulk RNA-seq samples from the alternate DAG, and the rest from the Perturb-seq DAG. We ideally would like to see the performance of RCSP degrade gracefully, as opposed to abruptly, as the percent of samples derived from the alternate DAG increases.

      We summarize results in Supplementary Figure 4. As expected, RCSP performed the best when we drew all samples from the same underlying DAG for Perturb-seq and bulk RNA-seq. However, the performance of RCSP also degraded slowly as the percent of samples increased from the alternate DAG. We conclude that RCSP can accommodate some differences between the underlying DAGs in Perturb-seq and bulk RNA-seq with only a mild degradation in performance.”

      (3) It should also be noted that in most Perturb-seq experiments, the entire genome is not perturbed, and frequently important TFs (that presumably are very far “upstream” and thus candidate “root” causal genes) are not expressed highly enough to be detected with scRNA-seq. In that context - perhaps slightly modifying the language regarding RCSP’s capabilities might be helpful for the manuscript - perhaps it would be better to describe it as an algorithm for causal discovery among a set of genes that were perturbed and measured, rather than a truly complete search for causal factors. Perhaps more broadly it would also benefit the manuscript to devote slightly more text to describing the kinds of scenarios where RCSP (and similar ideas) would be most appropriately applied - perhaps a well-powered, phenotype annotated Perturb-seq dataset performed in a disease relevant primary cell.

      We now clarify that Perturb-seq can only identify root causal genes among the perturbed set of genes in the Discussion:

      “Modern genome-wide Perturb-seq datasets also adequately perturb and measure only a few thousand, rather than all, gene expression levels. RCSP can only identify root causal genes within this perturbed and measured subset.”

      We now also describe the scenario where RCSP can identify root causal genes well in the Introduction:

      “Experiments demonstrate marked improvements in performance, when investigators have access to a large bulk RNA-seq dataset and a genome-wide Perturb-seq dataset from a cell line of a disease-relevant tissue.”

      Reviewer 2:

      (1) The process from health-to-disease is not linear most of the time with many checks along the way that aim to prevent the disease phenotype. This leads to a non-deterministic nature of the path from health-to-disease. In other words, with the same root gene perturbations, and depending on other factors outside of gene expression, someone may develop a phenotype in a year, another in 10 years and someone else never. Claiming that this information is included in the error terms might not be sufficient to address this issue. The authors should discuss this limitation.

      The proposed approach accommodates the above non-deterministic nature. The error terms of model factors that are outside of gene expression. We model the relation from gene expression to Y as probabilistic rather than deterministic because , where E<sub>Y</sub> introduces stochasticity. Thus, two individuals with the same instantiations of the root causes may develop disease differently. We now clarify this in Methods:

      “The error terms model root causes that are outside of gene expression, such as genetic variation or environmental factors. Moreover, the relation from gene expression to Y is stochastic because , where E<sub>Y</sub> introduces the stochasticity. Two individuals may therefore have the exact same error term values over but different instantiations of Y.”

      (2) The paper assumes that the network connectivity will remain the same after perturbation. This is not always true due to backup mechanisms in the cells. For example, suppose that a cell wants to create product P and it can do it through two alternative paths: Path #1: ABP, Path #2: ACP. Now suppose that path #1 is more efficient, so when B can be produced, path #2 is inactive. Once the perturbation blocks element B from being produced, the graph connectivity changes by activation of path #2. I did not see the authors taking this into consideration, which seems to be a major limitation in using Perturb-seq results to infer conductivities.

      We agree that backup mechanisms can exist and therefore now include additional experimental results, where we gradually increased the incongruence between the DAG modeling the Perturb-seq and the DAG modeling the bulk RNA-seq using a mixture of graphs. The performance of RCSP degraded gradually, rather than abruptly, with increasing incongruence. We therefore conclude that RCSP is robust to differences between the causal graphs representing Perturb-seq and bulk RNA-seq:

      “We next assessed the performance of RCSP when the DAG underlying the Perturb-seq data differs from the DAG underlying the bulk RNA-seq data. We considered a mixture of two random DAGs in bulk RNA-seq, where one of the DAGs coincided with the Perturb-seq DAG and second alternate DAG did not. We generated 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% of the bulk RNA-seq samples from the alternate DAG, and the rest from the Perturb-seq DAG. We ideally would like to see the performance of RCSP degrade gracefully, as opposed to abruptly, as the percent of samples derived from the alternate DAG increases.

      We summarize results in Supplementary Figure 4. As expected, RCSP performed the best when we drew all samples from the same underlying DAG for Perturb-seq and bulk RNA-seq. However, the performance of RCSP also degraded slowly as the percent of samples increased from the alternate DAG. We conclude that RCSP can accommodate some differences between the underlying DAGs in Perturb-seq and bulk RNA-seq with only a mild degradation in performance.”

      (3) There is substantial system heterogeneity that may cause the same phenotype. This goes beyond the authors claim that although the initial gene causes of a disease may differ from person to person, at some point they will all converge to changes in the same set of “root genes.” This is not true for many diseases, which are defined based on symptoms and lab tests at the patient level. You may have two completely different molecular pathologies that lead to the development of the same symptoms and test results. Breast cancer with its subtypes is a prime example of that. In theory, this issue could be addressed if there is infinite sample size. However, this assumption is largely violated in all existing biological datasets.

      The proposed method accommodates the above heterogeneity. We do not assume that the root causes affect the same set of root causal genes. Instead the root causes and root causal genes may vary from person to person. We write in the Introduction:

      “The problem is further complicated by the existence of complex disease, where a patient may have multiple root causal genes that differ from other patients even within the same diagnostic category... We thus also seek to identify patient-specific root causal genes in order to classify patients into meaningful biological subgroups each hopefully dictated by only a small group of genes.”

      The root causal genes may further affect different downstream genes at the patient-specific level. However root causal genes tend to have many downstream effects so that virtually every gene expression level becomes correlated with Y. We now clarify this by describing the omnigenic root causal model in the Introduction as follows:

      “Finally, application of the algorithm to two complex diseases with disparate pathogeneses recovers an omnigenic root causal model, where a small set of root causal genes drive pathogenesis but impact many downstream genes within each patient. As a result, nearly all gene expression levels are correlated with the diagnosis at the population level.”

      (4) Were the values of the synthetic variables Z-scored?

      Yes, all variables were z-scored. We now clarify this in Methods:

      “We also standardized all variables before running the regressions to prevent gaming of the marginal variances in causal discovery (Reisach et al., 2021; Ng et al., 2024).”

      (5) The algorithm seems to require both RNA-seq and Perturb-seq data (Algorithm 1, page 14). Can it function with RNA-seq data only? What will be different in this case?

      The algorithm cannot function with observational bulk RNA-seq data only. We included Perturb-seq because causal discovery with observational RNA-seq data alone tends to be inaccurate and unstable, as highlighted by the results of CausalCell. We further emphasize that we do not rely on d-separation faithfulness in Methods, which is typically required for causal discovery from observational data alone:

      “We can also claim the backward direction under d-separation faithfulness. We however avoid making this additional assumption because real biological data may not arise from distributions obeying d-separation faithfulness in practice.”

      (6) Synthetic data generation: how many different graphs (SEMs) did they start from? (30?) How many samples per graph? Did they test different sample sizes?

      We now clarify that we generate 30 random SEMs, each associated with a DAG. We used 200 samples for the bulk RNA-seq to mimic a relatively large but common sample size. We also drew 200 samples for each perturbation or control in the Perturb-seq data. We did not consider multiple sample sizes due to the time required to complete each run. Instead, we focused on a typical scenario where investigators would apply RCSP. We now write the following in the Methods:

      “We drew 200 samples for the bulk RNA-seq data to mimic a large but common dataset size. We introduced knockdown perturbations in Perturb-seq by subtracting an offset of two in the softplus function: . We finally drew 200 samples for the control and each perturbation condition to generate the Perturb-seq data. We repeated the above procedure 30 times.” We also include the following in Results:

      “We obtained 200 cell samples from each perturbation, and another 200 controls without perturbations. We therefore generated a total of 2501 × 200 = 500,200 single cell samples for each Perturb-seq dataset. We simulated 200 bulk RNA-seq samples.”

      (7) The presentation of comparative results (Supplementary Figures 4 and 7) is not clear. No details are given on how these results were generated. (what does it mean “The first column denotes the standard deviation of the outputs for each algorithm?”) Why all other methods have higher SD differences than RCSP? Is it a matter of scaling? Shouldn’t they have at least some values near zero since the authors “added the minimum value so that all histograms begin at zero?”

      Each of these supplementary figures contains a 6 by 3 table of figures. By the first column, we mean column one (with rows 1 through 6) of each figure. The D-RCS and D-SD scores represent standard deviations of the RCS and SD scores from zero of each gene, respectively. We can similarly compute the standard deviation of the outputs of the algorithms. We now clarify this in the Supplementary Materials:

      “The figure contains 6 rows and 3 columns. Similar to the D-RCS, we can compute the standard deviation of the output of each algorithm from zero for each gene. The first column in Supplementary Figure 7 denotes the histograms of these standard deviations across the genes.”

      Many histograms do not appear to start at zero because the bars are too small to be visible. We now clarify this in the Supplementary Materials as well:

      “Note that the bars at zero are not visible for many algorithms, since only a few genes attained standard deviations near the minimum.”

      (8) Why RCSP results are more like a negative binomial distribution and every other is kind of normal?

      All other methods have higher standard deviations than RCSP because they fail to compute an accurate measure of the root causal effect. Recall that, just like a machine has a few root causal problems, only a few root casual genes have large root causal effects under the omnigenic root causal model. The results of RCSP look more like a negative binomial distribution because most RCS scores are concentrated around zero and only a few RCS scores are large – consistent with the omnigenic root causal model. The other algorithms fail to properly control for the upstream genes and thus attain large standard deviations for nearly all genes. We now clarify these points in the Supplementary Materials as follows:

      “If an algorithm accurately identifies root causal genes, then it should only identify a few genes with large conditional root causal effects under the omnigenic root causal model. The RCSP algorithm had a histogram with large probability mass centered around zero with a long tail to the right. The standard deviations of the outputs of the other algorithms attained large values for nearly all genes. Incorporating feature selection and causal discovery with CausalCell introduced more outliers in the histogram of ANM. We conclude that only RCSP detected an omnigenic root causal model.”

      (9) What is the significance of genes changing expression “from left to right” in a UMAP plot? (e.g., Fig. 3h and 3g)

      The first UMAP dimension captured the variability of the RCS scores for most root causal genes. As a result, we could focus our analysis on the black cluster in Figure 3 (g) with large RCS scores in the subsequent pathway enrichment analysis summarized in Figure 3 (j). If two dimensions were involved, then we would need to analyze at least two clusters (e.g., black and pink), but this was not the case. We now clarify this in Results:

      “The RCS scores of most of the top genes exhibited a clear gradation increasing only from the left to the right hand side of the UMAP embedding; we plot an example in Figure 3 (h). We found three exceptions to this rule among the top 30 genes (example in Figure 3 (i) and see Supplementary Materials). RCSP thus detected genes with large RCS scores primarily in the black cluster of Figure 3 (g). Pathway enrichment analysis within this cluster alone yielded supra-significant results on the same pathway detected in the global analysis...”

      (10) The authors somewhat overstate the novelty of their algorithm. Representation of GRNs as causal graphs dates back in 2000 with the work of Nir Friedman in yeast. Other methods were developed more recently that look on regulatory network changes at the single sample level which the authors do not seem to be aware (e.g., Ellington et al, NeurIPS 2023 workshop GenBio and Bushur et al, 2019, Bioinformatics are two such examples). The methods they mention are for single cell data and they are not designed to connect single sample-level changes to a person’s phenotype. The RCS method needs to be put in the right background context in order to bring up what is really novel about it.

      We agree that many methods already exist for uncovering associational, predictive (Markov, neighborhood) and causal gene regulatory networks. We now cite the above papers. However, the novelty in our manuscript is not causal graph discovery, but rather estimation of root causal effects, detection of root causal genes, and the proposal of the omnigenic root causal model. We now clarify this in the

      Introduction:

      “Many algorithms focus on discovering associational or predictive relations, sometimes visually represented as gene regulatory networks (Costa et al., 2017; Ellington et al., 2023). Other methods even identify causal relations (Friedman et al., 2000; Wang et al., 2023; Wen et al., 2000; Buschur et al., 2000), but none pinpoint the first gene expression levels that ultimately generate the vast majority of pathogenesis. Simply learning a causal graph does not resolve the issue because causal graphs do not summarize the effects of unobserved root causes, such as unmeasured environmental changes or variants, that are needed to identify all root causal genes. We therefore define the Root Causal Strength (RCS) score...”

      Reviewer 3:

      (1) Several assumptions of the method are problematic. The most concerning is that the observational expression changes are all causally upstream of disease. There is work using Mendelian randomization (MR) showing that the opposite is more likely to be true: most differential expression in disease cohorts is a consequence rather than a cause of disease (Porcu et al., 2021). Indeed, the oxidative stress of AMD has known cellular responses including the upregulation of p53. The authors need to think carefully about how this impacts their framework. Can the theory say anything in this light? Simulations could also be designed to address robustness.

      Strictly speaking, we believe that differential expression in disease most likely has a cyclic causal structure: gene expression causes a diagnosis or symptom severity, and a diagnosis or symptom severity lead to treatments and other behavioral changes that perturb gene expression. For example, revTMWR in Porcu et al. (2021) uses trans-variants that are less likely to directly cause gene expression and instead directly cause a phenotype. However, TWMR as proposed in Porcu et al. (2019) instead uses cis-eQTLs and finds many putative causal relations from gene expression to phenotype. Thus, both causal directions likely hold.

      RCSP uses disease-relevant tissue believed to harbor gene expression levels that cause disease. However, RCSP theoretically cannot handle the scenario where Y is a non-sink vertex and is a parent of a gene expression level because modern Perturb-seq datasets usually do not perturb or measure Y. We therefore empirically investigated the degree of error by running experiments, where we set Y to a non-sink vertex, so that it can cause gene expression. We find that the performance of RCSP degrades considerably for gene expression levels that contain Y as a parent. Thus RCSP is sensitive to violations of the sink target assumption:

      “We finally considered the scenario where Y is a non-sink (or non-terminal) vertex. If Y is a parent of a gene expression level, then we cannot properly condition on the parents because modern Perturbseq datasets usually do not intervene on Y or measure Y . We therefore empirically investigated the degradation in performance resulting from a non-sink target Y, in particular for gene expression levels where Y is a parent. We again simulated 200 samples from bulk RNA-seq and each condition of Perturbseq with a DAG over 1000 vertices, an expected neighborhood size of 2 and a non-sink target Y . We then removed the outgoing edges from Y and resampled the DAG with a sink target. We compare the results of RCSP for both DAGs in gene expression levels where Y is a parent. We plot the results in Supplementary Figure 5. As expected, we observe a degradation in performance when Y is not terminal, where the mean RMSE increased from 0.045 to 0.342. We conclude that RCSP is sensitive to violations of the sink target assumption.”

      (2) A closely related issue is the DAG assumption of no cycles. This assumption is brought to bear because it is required for much classical causal machinery, but is unrealistic in biology where feedback is pervasive. How robust is RCSP to (mild) violations of this assumption? Simulations would be a straightforward way to address this.

      We agree that real causal graphs in biology often contain cycles. We now include additional experimental results with cyclic directed graphs in the Supplementary Materials. RCSP outperformed the other algorithms even in this setting, but we caution the reader that the theoretical interpretation of the RCS score may not coincide with a root causal effect when cycles exist:

      “We also evaluated the algorithms on directed graphs with cycles. We generated a linear SEM over p + 1 = 1000 variables in . We sampled the coefficient matrix β from a Bernoulli (1/(p − 1)) distribution but did not restrict the non-zero coefficients to the upper triangular portion of the matrix. We then proceeded to permute the variable ordering and weight each entry as in the Methods for the DAG. We repeated this procedure 30 times and report the results in Supplementary Figure 3.

      RCSP again outperformed all other algorithms even in the cyclic case. The results suggest that conditioning on the surrogate ancestors also estimates the RCS well even in the cyclic case. However, we caution that an error term E<sub>i</sub> can affect the ancestors of , when cycles exist. As a result, the RCS may not isolate the causal effect of the error term and thus not truly coincide with the notion of a root causal effect in cyclic causal graphs.”

      (3) The authors spend considerable effort arguing that technical sampling noise in X can effectively be ignored (at least in bulk). While the mathematical arguments here are reasonable, they miss the bigger picture point that the measured gene expression X can only ever be a noisy/biased proxy for the expression changes that caused disease: 1) Those events happened before the disease manifested, possibly early in development for some conditions like neurodevelopmental disorders. 2) bulk RNA-seq gives only an average across cell-types, whereas specific cell-types are likely “causal.” 3) only a small sample, at a single time point, is typically available. Expression in other parts of the tissue and at different times will be variable.

      We agree that many other sources of error exist. The causal model of RNA-expression in Methods corresponds to a single snapshot in time for each sample. We now clarify this in the Methods as follows:

      “We represent a snapshot of a biological causal process using an SEM over obeying Equation (3).”

      We thus only detect the root causal genes in a single snapshot in time for each sample in bulk RNA-seq. If we cannot detect the root causal effect in a gene due to the signal washing out over time as in (1), or if the root causal effect in different cell types cancel each other out to exactly zero in bulk as in (2), then we cannot detect those root causal genes even with an infinite sample size.

      (4) While there are connections to the omnigenic model, the latter is somewhat misrepresented. The authors refer to the “core genes” of the omnigenic model as being at the end (longitudinal) of pathogenesis. The omnigenic model makes no statements about temporal ordering: in causal inference terminology the core genes are simply the direct causes of disease.

      We now clarify that we use the word pathogenesis to mean the causal cascade from root causes to the diagnosis. In this case, the direct causes of the diagnosis correspond to the end of pathogenesis, while the root causes correspond to the beginning. For example, if , with Y a diagnosis, then X<sub>1</sub> is a root causal gene while X<sub>2</sub> is a core (direct causal) gene. We now clarify this in the Introduction:

      Root causes of disease correspond to the most upstream causes of a diagnosis with strong causal effects on the diagnosis. Pathogenesis refers to the causal cascade from root causes to the diagnosis. Genetic and non-genetic factors may act as root causes and affect gene expression as an intermediate step during pathogenesis. We introduce root causal gene expression levels – or root causal genes for short – that correspond to the initial changes to gene expression induced by genetic and non-genetic root causes that have large causal effects on a downstream diagnosis (Figure 1 (a)). Root causal genes differ from core genes that directly cause the diagnosis and thus lie at the end, rather than at the beginning, of pathogenesis (Boyle et al., 2017).”

      (5) A key observation underlying the omnigenic model is that genetic heritability is spread throughout the genome (and somewhat concentrated near genes expressed in disease relevant cell types). This implies that (almost) all expressed genes, or their associated (e)SNPs, are “root causes”.

      We now clarify that genetic heritability can be spread throughout the genome in the omnigenic root causal model as well in the Discussion:

      “Further, each causal genetic variant tends to have only a small effect on disease risk in complex disease because the variant can directly cause Y or directly cause any causal gene including those with small root causal effects on Y ; thus, all error terms that cause Y can model genetic effects on Y. However, the root causal model further elaborates that genetic and non-genetic factors often combine to produce a few root causal genes with large root causal effects, where non-genetic factors typically account for the majority of the large effects in complex disease. Many variants may therefore cause many genes in diseases with only a few root causal genes.”

      We finally add Figure 5 into the Discussion as a concrete example illustrating the omnigenic root causal model:

      (6) The claim that root causal genes would be good therapeutic targets feels unfounded. If these are highly variable across individuals then the choice of treatment becomes challenging. By contrast the causal effects may converge on core genes before impacting disease, so that intervening on the core genes might be preferable. The jury is still out on these questions, so the claim should at least be made hypothetical.

      We clarify that we do not claim that root causal genes are better treatment targets than core genes in terms of magnitudes of causal effects on the phenotype. For example, in the common cold with a virus as the root cause, giving a patient an antiviral will eliminate fever and congestion, but so will giving a decongestant and an antipyretic. We only claim that treating root causal genes can eliminate disease near its pathogenic onset, just like giving an antiviral can eliminate the viral load and stop pathogenesis. We write the following the Introduction:

      “Treating root causal genes can modify disease pathogenesis in its entirety, whereas targeting other causes may only provide symptomatic relief... Identifying root causal genes is therefore critical for developing treatments that eliminate disease near its pathogenic onset.”

      We also further clarify in the Discussion that root causal genes account for deleterious causal effects not captured by the diagnosis Y:

      “We finally emphasize that the root causal model accounts for all deleterious effects of the root causal genes, whereas the core gene model only captures the deleterious effects captured by the diagnosis Y. For example, the disease of diabetes causes retinopathy, but retinopathy is not a part of the diagnostic criteria of diabetes. As a result, the gene expression levels that cause retinopathy but not the diagnosis of diabetes are not core genes, even though they are affected by the root causal genes.”

      We do agree that root causal genes may differ substantially between patients, although it is unclear if the heterogeneity is too great to develop treatments.

      (7) The closest thing to a gold standard I believe we have for “root causal genes” is integration of molecular QTLs and GWAS, specifically coloc/MR. Here the “E” of RCSP are explicitly represented as SNPs. I don’t know if there is good data for AMD but there certainly is for MS. The authors should assess the overlap with their results. Another orthogonal avenue would be to check whether the root causal genes change early in disease progression.

      Colocalization and Mendelian randomization unfortunately cannot identify root causal effects because they all attempt, either heuristically (colocalization) or rigorously (MR), to identify variants that cause each gene expression level rather than variants that directly cause each gene expression level and thus make up the error terms. We therefore need new methods that can identify direct causal variants in order to assess overlap.

      We checked whether root causal genes change early in disease progression using knowledge of pathogenesis. In particular, oxidative stress induces pathogenesis in AMD, and RCSP identified root causal genes involved in oxidative stress in AMD:

      “The pathogenesis of AMD involves the loss of RPE cells. The RPE absorbs light in the back of the retina, but the combination of light and oxygen induces oxidative stress, and then a cascade of events such as immune cell activation, cellular senescence, drusen accumulation, neovascularization and ultimately fibrosis (Barouch et al., 2007). We therefore expect the root causal genes of AMD to include genes involved in oxidative stress during early pathogenesis. The gene MIPEP with the highest D-RCS score in Figure 3 (d) indeed promotes the maturation of oxidative phosphorylation-related proteins (Shi et al., 2011). The second gene SLC7A5 is a solute carrier that activates mTORC1 whose hyperactivation increases oxidative stress via lipid peroxidation (Nachef et al., 2021; Go et al., 2020). The gene HEATR1 is involved in ribosome biogenesis that is downregulated by oxidative stress (Turi et al., 2018). The top genes discovered by RCSP thus identify pathways known to be involved in oxidative stress.”

      Similarly, T cell infiltration across the blood brain barrier initiates pathogenesis in MS, and RCSP identified root causal genes involved in this infiltration:

      “Genes with the highest D-RCS scores included MNT, CERCAM and HERPUD2 (Figure 4 (d)). MNT is a MYC antagonist that modulates the proliferative and pro-survival signals of T cells after engagement of the T cell receptor (Gnanaprakasam et al., 2017). Similarly, CERCAM is an adhesion molecule expressed at high levels in microvessels of the brain that increases leukocyte transmigration across the blood brain barrier (Starzyk et al., 2000). HERPUD2 is involved in the endoplasmic-reticulum associated degradation of unfolded proteins (Kokame et al., 2000). Genes with the highest D-RCS scores thus serve key roles in known pathogenic pathways of MS.”

      (8) The available Perturb-seq datasets have limitations beyond on the control of the authors. 1) The set of genes that are perturbed. The authors address this by simply sub-setting their analysis to the intersection of genes represented in the perturbation and observational data. However, this may mean that a true ancestor of X is not modeled/perturbed, limiting the formal claims that can be made. Additionally, some proportion of genes that are nominally perturbed show little to no actual perturbation effect (for example, due to poor guide RNA choice) which will also lead to missing ancestors.

      We now clarify that Perturb-seq can only identify root causal genes among the adequately perturbed set of genes in the Discussion:

      “Modern genome-wide Perturb-seq datasets also only adequately perturb and measure a few thousand, rather than all, gene expression levels. RCSP can only identify root causal genes within this perturbed and measured subset.”

      (9) The authors provide no mechanism for statistical inference/significance for their results at either the individual or aggregated level. While I am a proponent of using effect sizes more than p-values, there is still value in understanding how much signal is present relative to a reasonable null.

      We now explain that RCSP does not perform statistical inference in Methods because it is not clear how to define the appropriate cut-off for the RCS score under the null distribution:

      “We focus on statistical estimation rather than statistical inference because Φ<sub>i</sub> > 0 when E<sub>i</sub> causes Y under mild conditions, so we reject the null hypothesis that Φ<sub>i</sub> \= 0 for many genes if many gene expression levels cause Y. However, just like a machine typically breaks down due to only one or a few root causal problems, we hypothesize that only a few genes have large RCS scores Φ<sub>i</sub> ≫ 0 even in complex disease.”

      (10) I agree with the authors that age coming out of a “root cause” is potentially encouraging. However, it is also quite different in nature to expression, including being “measured” exactly. Will RCSP be biased towards variables that have lower measurement error?

      We tested the above hypothesis by plotting sequencing depth against the D-RCS scores of each gene. We observed a small negative correlation between sequencing depth and D-RCS scores, indicating the D-RCS scores are slightly biased upwards with low sequencing depth. However, genes with the largest D-RCS scores exhibited a wide variety of sequencing depths in both MS and AMD, suggesting that sequencing depth has minimal effect on the largest D-RCS scores. We now explain these results for AMD in the Supplementary Materials:

      “Theorem 1 states that RCS scores may exhibit bias with insufficient sequencing depth. The genes with large D-RCS scores may therefore simply have low sequencing depths. To test this hypothesis, we plotted sequencing depth against D-RCS scores. Consistent with Theorem 1, we observed a small negative correlation between D-RCS and sequencing depth (ρ \= −0.16, p=2.04E-13), and D-RCS scores exhibited greater variability at the lowest sequencing depths (Supplementary Figure 8). However, genes with the largest D-RCS scores had mean sequencing depths interspersed between 20 and 3000. We conclude that genes with the largest D-RCS scores had a variety of sequencing depths ranging from low to high.”

      We also report the results for MS:

      “We plot sequencing depth against the D-RCS scores of each gene similar to the AMD dataset. We again observed a small negative correlation (ρ \= −0.136, p_<_2.2E-16), indicating that genes with low sequencing depths had slightly higher D-RCS scores on average (Supplementary Figure 12). However, genes with the largest D-RCS scores again had a variety of sequencing depths. We conclude that sequencing depth has minimal correlation with the largest D-RCS scores.”

      (11) Finally, it’s a stretch to call K562 cells “lymphoblasts.” They are more myeloid than lymphoid.

      We now clarify that K562 cells are undifferentiated blast cells that can be induced to differentiate into lymphoblasts in Results:

      “We next ran RCSP on 137 samples collected from CD4+ T cells of multiple sclerosis (MS; GSE137143) as well as Perturb-seq data of 1,989,578 undifferentiated blast cells that can be induced to differentiate into lymphoblasts, or the precursors of T cells and other lymphocytes.”

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This valuable study advances our understanding of the brain nuclei involved in rapid-eye movement (REM) sleep regulation. Using a combination of imaging, electrophysiology, and optogenetic tools, the study provides convincing evidence that inhibitory neurons in the preoptic area of the hypothalamus influence REM sleep. This work will be of interest to neurobiologists working on sleep and/or brain circuitry.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper identifies GABA cells in the preoptic hypothalamus which are involved in REM sleep rebound (the increase in REM sleep) after selective REM sleep deprivation. By calcium photometry, these cells are most active during REM, and show more claim signals during REM deprivation, suggesting they respond to "REM pressure". Inhibiting these cells ontogenetically diminishes REM sleep. The optogenetic and photometry work is carried out to a high standard, the paper is well-written, and the findings are interesting.

      We thank the reviewer for the detailed feedback and thoughtful comments on how to improve our manuscript. To address the reviewer’s concerns, we revised our discussion and added new data. Below, we address the concerns point by point.

      Points that could be addressed or discussed:

      (1) The circuit mechanism for REM rebound is not defined. How do the authors see REM rebound as working from the POAGAD2 cells? Although the POAGAD2 does project to the TMN, the actual REM rebound could be mediated by a projection of these cells elsewhere. This could be discussed.

      We demonstrate thatPOA GAD2→TMN cells become more frequently activated as the pressure for REMs builds up, whereas inhibiting these neurons during high REMs pressure leads to a suppression of the REMs rebound. It is not known how POA GAD2→TMN cells encodeincreased REMs pressure and subsequently influence the REMs rebound. REMsdeprivation wasshown to changethe intrinsic excitabilityof hippocampal neurons and impact synaptic plasticity (McDermott et al., 2003; Mallick and Singh, 2011 ; Zhou et al., 2020) . We speculate that increasedREMs pressure leads to an increase in the excitabilityof POA->TMN neurons, reflected inthe increased number ofcalcium peaks. The increased excitability of POA GAD2→TMN neurons in turn likely leads to stronger inhibition of downstream REM-off neurons. Consequently, as soon as REMsdeprivation stops, there is an increased chance for enteringREMs. The time coursefor how long it takes till the POA excitability resettles toits baseline consequently sets a permissive time window for increasedamounts of REMs to recover its lostamount. For future studies, it would be interesting to map how quickly the excitability ofPOA neurons increases or decays as afunction of the lost or recovered amount of REMs andunravel the cellularmechanisms underlying the elevated activity of POAGAD2 →TMN neurons during highREMs pressure, e.g., whether changes in the expression of ion channels contribute to increasedexcitability of these neurons (Donlea et al., 2014) . As we mentioned in the Discussion, the POAalso projects to other REMs regulatorybrain regions such as the vlPAG and LH. Therefore, it remains to be tested whether POA GAD2 →TMN neurons also innervate these brain regions to potentially regulate REMs homeostasis. We explicitly state this now in the revised Discussion.

      (2) The "POAGAD2 to TMN" name for these cells is somewhat confusing. The authors chose this name because they approach the POAGAD2 cells via retrograde AAV labelling (rAAV injected into the TMN). However, the name also seems to imply that neurons (perhaps histamine neurons) in the TMN are involved in the REM rebound, but there is no evidence in the paper that this is the case. Although it is nice to see from the photometry studies that the histamine cells are selectively more active (as expected) in NREM sleep (Fig. S2), I could not logically see how this was a relevant finding to REM rebound or the subject of the paper. There are many other types of cells in the TMN area, not just histamine cells, so are the authors suggesting that these non-histamine cells in the TMN could be involved?

      We acknowledge that other types of neurons in the TMN may also be involved in the REMs rebound, and therefore inhibition of histamine neurons by POA GAD2 →TMN neurons may not be the sole source of the observed effect. To stress that other neurons within the TMN and/or brain regions may also contribute to the REMs rebound, we have revised the Results section.

      We performed complementary optogenetic inhibition experiments of TMN HIS neurons to investigate if suppression of these neurons is sufficient to promote REMs. We foundthat SwiChR++ mediated inhibition of TMNHIS neurons increased theamount of REMs compared withrecordings without laser stimulation in the same mice and eYFPmice withlaser stimulation. Thus, while TMN HIS neurons may not bethe only downstream target of GABAergic POA neurons, these data suggest that they contribute to REMs regulation. We have incorporated these results in Fig. S4 .

      We further investigated whether the activity of TMN HIS neurons changes between two REMs episodes. Assumingthat REMs pressure inhibits the activity ofREM-off histamine neurons,their firing rates should behighest right after REMs ends when REMs pressure is lowest, and progressivelydecay throughout the inter-REM interval, and reach their lowest activity right before the onset of REMs ( Park et al., 2021) , similarto the activity profile observed for vlPAG REM-off neurons (Weber et al., 2018).We indeed found that TMNHIS neurons displaya gradual decrease in their activity throughout theinter-REM interval and thus potentially reflect the build up of REM pressure ( Fig. S2F ).

      (3) It is a puzzle why most of the neurons in the POA seem to have their highest activity in REM, as also found by Miracca et al 2022, yet presumably some of these cells are going to be involved in NREM sleep as well. Could the same POAGAD2-TMN cells identified by the authors also be involved in inducing NREM sleep-inhibiting histamine neurons (Chung et al). And some of these POA cells will also be involved in NREM sleep homeostasis (e.g. Ma et al Curr Biol)? Is NREM sleep rebound necessary before getting REM sleep rebound? Indeed, can these two things (NREM and REM sleep rebound) be separated?

      Previous studies have demonstrated that POA GABAergic neurons, including those projecting to the TMN, are involved in NREMs homeostasis (Sherin et al., 1998; Gong et al., 2004; Ma et al., 2019) . Therefore, we predict that POA neurons that are involved in NREMs homeostasis are a subset of POA GAD2 → TMN neurons in our manuscript.

      Using optrode recordings in the POA, we recently reported that 12.4% of neurons sampled have higher activity during NREMs compared with REMs; in contrast, 43.8% of neurons sampled have the highest activity during REMs compared with NREMs (Antila et al., 2022) indicating that the proportion of NREM max neurons is smaller compared with REM max neurons. These proportions of neurons are in agreement with previous results (Takahashi et al., 2009) . Considering fiber photometry monitors the average activity of a population of neurons as opposed to individual neurons, it is possible that we recorded neural activity across heterogeneous populations and therefore our findings may disguise the neural activity of the low proportion of NREMs neurons. We previously reported thespiking activity of POA GAD2 →TMN neurons at the singlecell level (Chung et al., 2017) . We have noted in themanuscript thatwhile the activity ofPOA GAD2→TMN neurons is highestduring REMs, theneural activity increases at NREMs → REMs transitions indicating these neurons also areactive during NREMs.

      Using our REMs restriction protocol, we selectively restricted REMs leading to the subsequent rebound of REMs without affecting NREMs and consequently we did not find an increase in the amount of NREMs during the rebound or an increase in slow-wave activity, a key characteristic of sleep rebound that gradually dissipates during recovery sleep (Blake and Gerard, 1937; Williams et al., 1964; Rosa and Bonnet, 1985; Dijk et al., 1990; Neckelmann and Ursin, 1993; Ferrara et al., 1999) . However, during total sleep deprivation when subjects are deprived of both NREMs and REMs, isolating NREMs and REMs rebound may not be attainable.

      (4) Is it possible to narrow down the POA area where the GAD2 cells are located more precisely?

      POA can be subdivided into anatomically distinct regions such as medial preoptic area, median preoptic area, ventrolateral preoptic area, and lateral preoptic area (MPO, MPN, VLPO, and LPO respectively). To quantify where the virus expressing GAD2 cells and optic fibers are located within the POA, we overlaid the POA coronal reference images (with red boundaries denoting these anatomically distinct regions) over the virus heat maps and optic fiber tracts from datasets used in Figure 1A. We found that virus expression and optic fiber tracts were located in the ventrolateral POA, lateral POA, and the lateral part of medial POA, and included this description in the text.

      Author response image 1.

      Location of virus expression (A) and optic fiber placement (B) within subregions of POA.

      (5) It would be ideal to further characterize these particular GAD2 cells by RT-PCR or RNA seq. Which other markers do they express?

      Single-cell RNA-sequencing of POA neurons has revealed an enormous level of molecular diversity, consisting of nearly 70 subpopulations based on gene expression of which 43 can be clustered into inhibitory neurons (Moffitt et al., 2018) . One of the most studied subpopulation of POA sleep-active neurons contains the inhibitory neuropeptide galanin (Sherin et al., 1998; Gaus et al., 2002; Chung et al., 2017; Kroeger et al., 2018; Ma et al., 2019; Miracca et al., 2022) . Galanin neurons have been demonstrated to innervate the TMN (Sherin et al., 1998) yet, within the galanin neurons 7 distinct clusters exist based on unique gene expression (Moffitt et al., 2018) . In addition to galanin, we have previously performed single-cell RNA-seq on POA GAD2 → TMN neurons and identified additional neuropeptides such as cholecystokinin (CCK), corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH), prodynorphin (PDYN), and tachykinin 1 (TAC1) as subpopulations of GABAergic POA sleep-active neurons (Chung et al., 2017; Smith et al., 2023) . Like galanin, these neuropeptides can also be divided into multiple subtypes as well (Chen et al., 2017; Moffitt et al., 2018) . Thus while these molecular markers for POA neurons are immensely diverse, we agree that characterizing the molecular identity of POA GAD2 → TMN neurons and investigating the functional relevance of these neuropeptides in the context of REMs homeostasis would enrich our understanding of a neural circuit involved in REMs homeostasis and can stand as a separate extension of this manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Maurer et al investigated the contribution of GAD2+ neurons in the preoptic area (POA), projecting to the tuberomammillary nucleus (TMN), to REM sleep regulation. They applied an elegant design to monitor and manipulate the activity of this specific group of neurons: a GAD2-Cre mouse, injected with retrograde AAV constructs in the TMN, thereby presumably only targeting GAD2+ cells projecting to the TMN. Using this set-up in combination with technically challenging techniques including EEG with photometry and REM sleep deprivation, the authors found that this cell-type studied becomes active shortly (≈40sec) prior to entering REM sleep and remains active during REM sleep. Moreover, optogenetic inhibition of GAD2+ cells inhibits REM sleep by a third and also impairs the rebound in REM sleep in the following hour. Despite a few reservations or details that would benefit from further clarification (outlined below), the data makes a convincing case for the role of GAD2+ neurons in the POA projecting to the TMN in REM sleep regulation.

      We thank the reviewer for the thorough assessment of our study and supportive comments. We have addressed your concerns in the revised manuscript, and our point by point response is provided below.

      The authors found that optogenetic inhibition of GAD2+ cells suppressed REM sleep in the hour following the inhibition (e.g. Fig2 and Fig4). If the authors have the data available, it would be important to include the subsequent hours in the rebound time (e.g. from ZT8.5 to ZT24) to test whether REM sleep rebound remains impaired, or recovers, albeit with a delay.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and agree that it would be interesting to know how REMs changes for a longer period of time throughout the rebound phase. For Fig. 2, we did not record the subsequent hours. For Fig 4, we recorded the subsequent rebound between ZT7.5 and 10.5. When we compare the REMs amount during this 4 hr interval, the SwiChR mice have less REMs compared with eYFP mice with marginal significance (unpaired t-test, p=0.0641). We also plotted the cumulative REMs amount during restriction and rebound phases, and found that the cumulative amount of REMs was still lower in SwiChR mice than eYFP mice at ZT 10.5 (Author response image 2). Therefore, it will be interesting to record for a longer period of time to test when the SwiChR mice compensate for all the REMs that was lost during the restriction period.

      Author response image 2.

      Cumulative amount of REMs during REMs deprivation and rebound combined with optogenetic stimulation in eYFP and SwiChR groups. This data is shown as bar graphs in Figure 4.

      REM sleep is under tight circadian control (e.g. Wurts et al., 2000 in rats; Dijk, Czeisler 1995 in humans). To contextualize the results, it would be important to mention that it is not clear if the role of the manipulated neurons in REM sleep regulation hold at other circadian times of the day.

      Author response image 3.

      Inhibiting POA GAD2→ TMN neurons at ZT5-8 reduces REMs. (A) Schematic of optogenetic inhibition experiments. (B) Percentage of time spent in REMs, NREMs and wakefulness with laser in SwiChR++ and eYFP mice. Unpaired t-tests, p = 0.0013, 0.0469 for REMs and wakeamount. (C) Duration of REMs, NREMs, and wake episodes. Unpaired t-tests, p = 0.0113 for NREMs duration. (D) Frequency of REMs, NREMs, and wake episodes. Unpaired t-tests, p = 0.0063, 0.0382 for REMs and NREMs frequency.

      REMs propensity is largest towards the end of the light phase (Czeisler et al., 1980; Dijk and Czeisler, 1995; Wurts and Edgar, 2000). As a control, we therefore performed the optogenetic inhibition experiments of POA GAD2→TMN neurons during ZT5-8 (Author response image 3). Similar to our results in Figure 2, we found that SwiChR-mediated inhibition of POA GAD2 →TMN neurons attenuated REMs compared with eYFP laser sessions. These findings suggest our results are consistentat other circadian times of the day.

      The effect size of the REM sleep deprivation using the vibrating motor method is unclear. In FigS4-D, the experimental mice reduce their REM sleep to 3% whereas the control mice spend 6% in REM sleep. In Fig4, mice are either subjected to REM sleep deprivation with the vibrating motor (controls), or REM sleep deprivations + optogenetics (experimental mice).

      The control mice (vibrating motor) in Fig4 spend 6% of their time in REM sleep, which is double the amount of REM sleep compared to the mice receiving the same treatment in FigS4-D. Can the authors clarify the origin of this difference in the text?

      The effect size for REM sleep deprivation is now added in the text.

      It is important to note that these figures are analyzing two different intervals of the REMs restriction. In Fig. S4D, we analyzed the total amount of REMs over the entire 6 hr restriction interval (ZT1.5-7.5). In Fig. 4, we analyzed the amount of REMs only during the last 3 hr of restriction (ZT4.5-7.5) as optogenetic inhibition was performed only during the last 3 hrs when the REMs pressure is high. In Fig. S4D, we looked at the amount of REMs during ZT1.5-4.5 and 4.5-7.5 and found that the amount of REMs during ZT4.5-7.5 (4.46 ± 0.25 %; mean ± s.e.m.) is indeed higher than ZT 1.5-4.5 (1.66 ± 0.62 %), and is comparable to the amount of REMs during ZT4.5-7.5 in eYFP mice (5.95 ± 0.52 %) in Fig. 4. We now clearly state in the manuscript at which time points we analyzed the amount, duration and frequency of REMs.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) A few further citations suggested: Discussion "The TMN contains histamine producing neurons and antagonizing histamine neurons causes sleepiness..." It would be appropriate to cite Uygun DS et al 2016 J Neurosci (PMID: 27807161) here. Using the same HDC-Cre mice as used by Maurer et al., Uygun et al found that selectively increasing GABAergic inhibition onto histamine neurons produced NREM sleep.

      We apologize for omitting this important paper. In the revised manuscript, we added this citation.

      (2) Materials and Methods.

      Although the JAX numbers are given for the mouse lines based on researchers generously donating to JAX for others to use, please cite the papers corresponding to the GAD2-ires-Cre and HDC-ires-Cre mouse lines deposited at JAX.

      GAD2-ires-Cre was described in Taniguchi H et al., 2011, Neuron (PMID: 21943598).

      The construction of the HDC-ires-CRE line is described in Zecharia AY et al J Neurosci et al 2012 (PMID: 22993424).

      We have now added these important citations in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Similarly, for the viruses, please provide the citations for the AAV constructs that were donated to Addgene.

      We have now added these citations in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors rely heavily on their conclusions by using an optogenetic tool that inhibits the activity of GAD2+ neurons, however, it is not shown that these neurons are indeed inhibited as expected. An alternative approach to tackle this could be the application of a different technique to achieve the same output (e.g. chemogenetics). However, both experiments (confirmation of inhibition, or using a different technique) would require a significant amount of work, and given the numerous studies out there showing that these optogenetic tools tend to work, may not be necessary. Hence the authors could also cite a similar study that used a likewise construct and where it was indeed shown that this technique works (i.e. similar retrograde optogenetic construct with Cre depedendent expression combined with electrophysiological recordings).

      This laser stimulation protocol was designed based on previous reports of sustained inhibition using the same inhibitory opsin and our prior results that recapitulate similar findings as inhibitory chemogenetic techniques (Iyer et al., 2016; Kim et al., 2016; Wiegert et al., 2017; Stucynski et al., 2022). We have now added this description in the Result section.

      Fig1A - Right: the virus expression graphs are great and give a helpful insight into the variability. The image on the left (GCAMP+ cells) is less clear, the GCAMP+ cells don't differentiate well from the background. Perhaps the whole brain image with inset in POA can show the GCAMP expression more convincingly.

      We have added a histology picture showing the whole brain image with inset in the POA in the updated Fig. 1A .

      Statistics: The table is very helpful. Based on the degrees of freedom, it seems that in some instances the stats are run on the recordings rather than on the individual mice (e.g. Fig1). It could be considered to use a mixed model where subjects as taken into account as a factor.

      Author response image 4.

      ΔF/Factivity of POA GAD2→TMN neurons during NREMs. The duration of NREMs episodes was normalized in time, ranging from 0 to 100%. Shading, ± s.e.m. Pairwise t-tests with Holm-Bonferroni correctionp = 5.34 e-4 between80 and100. Graybar, intervals where ΔF/F activity was significantly different from baseline (0 to 20%, the first time bin). n = 10 mice. In Fig. 1E , we ran stats based on the recordings. In this data set, we ran stats based on the individual mice, and found that the activity also gradually increased throughout NREMs episodes.

      There is an effect of laser in Fig2 on REM sleep amount, as well as an interaction effect with virus injection (from the table). Therefore, it would be helpful for the reader to also show REM sleep data from the control group (laser stimulation but no active optogenetics construct) in Fig 2.

      To properly control laser and virus effect, we performed the same laser stimulation experiments in eYFP control mice (expressing only eYFP without optogenetic construct, SwiChR++) and the data is provided in Fig 2C .

      Fig3B: At the start of the rebound of REM sleep, there is a massive amount of wakefulness, also reflected in the change of spectral composition. Could you comment on the text about what is happening here?

      We quantified the amount of wakefulness during the first hour of REMs rebound and found that indeed there is no significant difference in wakefulness between REM restriction and baseline control conditions ( Fig. S4H ). Therefore, while the representative image in Fig 3B shows increased wakefulness at the beginning of REMs rebound, we do not think the overall amount of wakefulness is increased.

      Fig 4, supplementary data: it would be helpful for the reader to have mentioned in the text the effect size of the REM sleep restriction protocol (e.g. mean and standard deviation).

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have now added the effect size for the REM sleep restriction experiments in the main text.

      REM sleep restriction and photometry experiment: could be improved by adding within the main body of text that, in order to conduct the photometry experiment in the last hours of REM sleep deprivation, the manual REM sleep deprivation had to be applied, because the vibrating motor technique disturbed the photometry recordings.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have added the description in the main text.

      Suggestion to build further on the already existing data (not for this paper): you have a powerful dataset to test whether REM sleep pressure builds up during wakefulness or NREM sleep, by correlating when your optogenetic treatment occurs (NREM or wakefulness), with the subsequent rebound in REM sleep (see also Endo et al., 1998; Benington and Heller, 1994; Franken 2001).

      We thank the reviewer for this excellent suggestion. We plan to carry out this experiment in the future.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank you for the time you took to review our work and for your feedback! The main changes to the manuscript are: 

      (1) We have added additional analysis of running onsets in closed and open loop conditions for audiomotor (Figure 2H) and visuomotor (Figure 3H) coupling.  

      (2) We have also added analysis of running speed and pupil dilation upon mismatch presentation (Figures S2A and S2B, S4A and S4B, and S5A and S5B).

      (3) We have expanded on the discussion of the nature of differences between audiomotor and visuomotor mismatches.

      Reviewer #1:

      The manuscript presents a short report investigating mismatch responses in the auditory cortex, following previous studies focused on the visual cortex. By correlating the mouse locomotion speed with acoustic feedback levels, the authors demonstrate excitatory responses in a subset of neurons to halts in expected acoustic feedback. They show a lack of responses to mismatch in the visual modality. A subset of neurons show enhanced mismatch responses when both auditory and visual modalities are coupled to the animal's locomotion. 

      While the study is well-designed and addresses a timely question, several concerns exist regarding the quantification of animal behavior, potential alternative explanations for recorded signals, correlation between excitatory responses and animal velocity, discrepancies in reported values, and clarity regarding the identity of certain neurons. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) Well-designed study addressing a timely question in the field. 

      (2) Successful transition from previous work focused on the visual cortex to the auditory cortex, demonstrating generic principles in mismatch responses. 

      (3) The correlation between mouse locomotion speed and acoustic feedback levels provides evidence for a prediction signal in the auditory cortex. 

      (4) Coupling of visual and auditory feedback shows putative multimodal integration in the auditory cortex. 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Lack of quantification of animal behavior upon mismatches, potentially leading to alternative interpretations of recorded signals. 

      (2) Unclear correlation between excitatory responses and animal velocity during halts, particularly in closed-loop versus playback conditions. 

      (3) Discrepancies in reported values in a few figure panels raise questions about data consistency and interpretation. 

      (4) Ambiguity regarding the identity of the [AM+VM] MM neurons. 

      The manuscript is a short report following up on a series of papers focusing on mismatch responses between sensory inputs and predicted signals. While previous studies focused on the visual modality, here the authors moved to the auditory modality. By pairing mouse locomotion speed to the sound level of the acoustic feedback, they show that a subpopulation of neurons displays excitatory responses to halts in the (expected) acoustic feedback. These responses were lower in the open-loop state, when the feedback was uncorrelated to the animal locomotion. 

      Overall it is a well-designed study, with a timely and well-posed question. I have several concerns regarding the nature of the MM responses and their interpretations. 

      - One lacks quantification of the animal behavior upon mismatches. Behavioral responses may trigger responses in the mouse auditory cortex, and this would be an alternative explanation to the recorded signals. 

      What is the animal speed following closed-loop halts (we only have these data for the playback condition)? 

      We have quantified the running speed of the mouse following audiomotor and visuomotor mismatches. We found no evidence of a change in running speed. We have added this to Figures S2A and S4A, respectively.

      Is there any pupillometry to quantify possible changes in internal states upon halts (both closed-loop and playback)?

      The term 'internal state' may be somewhat ambiguous in this context. We assume the reviewer is asking whether we have any evidence for possible neuromodulatory changes. We know that there are noradrenergic responses in visual cortex to visuomotor mismatches (Jordan and Keller, 2023), but no cholinergic responses (Yogesh and Keller, 2023). Pupillometry, however, is likely not always sensitive enough to pick up these responses. With very strong neuromodulatory responses (e.g. to air puffs, or other startling stimuli), pupil dilation is of course detected, but this effect is likely at best threshold linear. Looking at changes in pupil size following audiomotor and visuomotor mismatch responses, we found no evidence of a change. We have added this to Figures S2B and S4B, respectively. Note, we suspect this is also strongly experience-dependent. The first audio- or visuomotor mismatch the mouse encounters is likely a more salient stimulus (to the rest of the brain, not necessarily to auditory or visual cortex), than the following ones.  

      These quantifications must be provided for the auditory mismatches but also for the VM or [AM+VM] mismatches.  

      During the presentation of multimodal mismatches [AM + VM], mice did not exhibit significant changes in running speed or pupil diameter. These data have been now added to Figures S5A and S5B.

      - AM MM neurons supposedly receive a (excitatory) locomotion-driven prediction signal. Therefore the magnitude of the excitation should depend on the actual animal velocity. Does the halt-evoked response in a closed loop correlate with the animal speed during the halt? Is the correlation less in the playback condition? 

      This is indeed what one would expect. We fear, however, that we don’t have sufficient data to address this question properly. Moreover, there is an important experimental caveat that makes the interpretation of the results difficult. In addition to the sound we experimentally couple to the locomotion speed of the mouse, the mouse self-generates sound by running (the treadmill rotating, changes to the airflow of the air-supported treadmill, footsteps, etc.). These sources of sound all also correlate in intensity with running speed. Thus, it is not entirely clear how our increase in sound amplitude with increasing running speed relates to the increase in self-generated sounds on the treadmill. This is one of the key reasons we usually do this type of experiment in the visual system where experimental control of visual flow feedback (in a given retinotopic location) is straightforward. 

      Having said that, if we look at the how mismatch responses change as a function of locomotion speed across the entire population of neurons, there appears to be no systematic change with running speed (and the effects are highly dependent on speed bins we choose). However, just looking at the most audiomotor mismatch responsive neurons, we find a trend for increased responses with increasing running speed (Author response image 1). We analyzed the top 5% of cells that showed the strongest response to mismatch (MM) and divided the MM trials into three groups based on running speed: slow (10-20 cm/s), middle (20-30 cm/s), and fast (>30 cm/s). Given the fact that we have on average 14 mismatch events in total per neuron, we don’t have sufficient data to analyze this. 

      Author response image 1.

      The average response of strongest AM MM responders to AM mismatches as a function of running speed (data are from 51 cells, 11 fields of view, 6 mice). 

      Values in Figure 2H are way higher than what can be observed in Figures 2C, and D. Could you explain the mismatch in values? Same for 3H and 4F. 

      In Figure 2H (now Figure S2F), we display responses from 4 755 individual neurons. Since most recorded neurons did not exhibit significant responses to mismatch presentations, their responses cluster around zero, significantly contributing to the final average shown in panel D. To clarify how individual neurons contribute to the overall population activity, we have added a histogram showing the distribution of neurons responding to audiomotor mismatch and sound playback halts. We hope this addition clarifies how individual neuron responses affect the final population activity. 

      Furthermore, neurons exhibiting suppression upon closed-loop halts (Figure 2C) show changes in deltaF/F of the same order of magnitude as the AM MM neurons (with excitatory responses). I cannot picture where these neurons are found in the scatter plot of Figure 2H. 

      This is caused by a ceiling effect. While we could adjust the scale of the heat map to capture neurons with very high responses (e.g. [-50 50], Author response image 2), doing so would obscure the response dynamics of most neurons. Note that the number of neurons on the y-axis far exceeds the resolution of this figure and thus there are also aliasing issues that mask the strong responses. 

      Author response image 2.

      Responses of all L2/3 ACx neurons to audiomotor mismatches. Same as Figure 2C with different color scale [-50 50] which does not capture most of the neural activity.  

      - Are [AM+VM] MM neurons AM neurons? 

      Many of [AM + VM] and [AM] neurons overlap but it is not exactly the same population. This is partially visible in Figure 4F. There is a subset of neurons (13.7%; red dots, Figure 4F) that selectively responded to the concurrent [AM+VM] mismatch, while a different subset of neurons (11.2%; yellow dots, Figure 4F) selectively responded to the mismatch responses in isolation. The [VM] response contributes only little to the sum of the two responses [AM] + [VM]. 

      Please do not use orange in Figure 4F, it is perceptually too similar to red. 

      We have now changed it to yellow. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      In this study, Solyga and Keller use multimodal closed-loop paradigms in conjunction with multiphoton imaging of cortical responses to assess whether and how sensorimotor prediction errors in one modality influence the computation of prediction errors in another modality. Their work addresses an important open question pertaining to the relevance of non-hierarchical (lateral cortico-cortical) interactions in predictive processing within the neocortex. 

      Specifically, they monitor GCaMP6f responses of layer 2/3 neurons in the auditory cortex of head-fixed mice engaged in VR paradigms where running is coupled to auditory, visual, or audio-visual sensory feedback. The authors find strong auditory and motor responses in the auditory cortex, as well as weak responses to visual stimuli. Further, in agreement with previous work, they find that the auditory cortex responds to audiomotor mismatches in a manner similar to that observed in visual cortex for visuomotor mismatches. Most importantly, while visuomotor mismatches by themselves do not trigger significant responses in the auditory cortex, simultaneous coupling of audio-visual inputs to movement non-linearly enhances mismatch responses in the auditory cortex. 

      Their results thus suggest that prediction errors within a given sensory modality are non-trivially influenced by prediction errors from another modality. These findings are novel, interesting, and important, especially in the context of understanding the role of lateral cortico-cortical interactions and in outlining predictive processing as a general theory of cortical function. 

      In its current form, the manuscript lacks sufficient description of methodological details pertaining to the closed-loop training and the overall experimental design. In several scenarios, while the results per se are convincing and interesting, their exact interpretation is challenging given the uncertainty about the actual experimental protocols (more on this below). Second, the authors are laser-focused on sensorimotor errors (mismatch responses) and focus almost exclusively on what happens when stimuli deviate from the animal's expectations. 

      While the authors consistently report strong running-onset responses (during open-loop) in the auditory cortex in both auditory and visual versions of the task, they do not discuss their interpretation in the different task settings (see below), nor do they analyze how these responses change during closed-loop i.e. when predictions align with sensory evidence. 

      However, I believe all my concerns can be easily addressed by additional analyses and incorporation of methodological details in the text. 

      Major concerns: 

      (1) Insufficient analysis of audiomotor mismatches in the auditory cortex: 

      Lack of analysis of the dependence of audiomotor mismatches on the running speed: it would be helpful if the authors could clarify whether the observed audiomotor mismatch responses are just binary or scale with the degree of mismatch (i.e. running speed). Along the same lines, how should one interpret the lack of dependence of the playback halt responses on the running speed? Shouldn't we expect that during playback, the responses of mismatch neurons scale with the running speed? 

      Regarding the scaling of AM mismatch responses with running speed, please see our response to reviewer 1 above to the same question. 

      Regarding the playback halt response and dependence on running speed, we would not expect there to be a dependence. The playback halt response (by design) measures the strength of the sensory response to a cessation of a stimulus (think OFF response). These typically are less strong in cortex than the corresponding ON responses but need to be controlled for (else a mismatch response might just be an OFF response – the prediction error is quantified as the difference between AM mismatch response and playback halt response). Given that sound onset responses only have a small dependence on running state, we would similarly expect sound offset (playback halt) responses to exhibit only minimal dependence on running state. 

      Slow temporal dynamics of audiomotor mismatches: despite the transient nature of the mismatches (1s), auditory mismatch responses last for several seconds. They appear significantly slower than previous reports for analogous visuomotor mismatches in V1 (by the same group, using the same methods) and even in comparison to the multimodal mismatches within this study (Figure 4C). What might explain this sustained activity? Is it due to a sustained change in the animal's running in response to the auditory mismatch? 

      This is correct, neither AM or AM+VM mismatch return to baseline in the 3 seconds following onset. VM mismatch response in visual cortex also do not return to baseline in that time window (see e.g.

      Figure 1E in (Attinger et al., 2017), or Figure 1F in (Zmarz and Keller, 2016). What the origin or computation significance of this sustained calcium response is we do not know. In intracellular signals, we do not see this sustained response (Jordan and Keller, 2020). Also peculiar is indeed the fact that in the case of AM mismatch the sustained response is similar in strength to the initial response. But also here, why this would be the case, we do not know. It is conceivable that the initial and the sustained calcium response have different origins, if the sustained response amplitude is all or nothing, the fact that the AM mismatch response is the smallest of the three could explain why sustained and initial responses are closer than for [AM+VM] or VM (in visual cortex) mismatch responses. All sustained responses appear to be roughly 1% dF/F. There are no apparent changes in running speed or pupil dilation that would correlate with the sustained activity (new panel A in Figure S2). 

      (2) Insufficient analysis and discussion of running onset responses during audiomotor sessions: The authors report strong running-onset responses during open-loop in identified mismatch neurons. They also highlight that these responses are in agreement with their model of subtractive prediction error, which relies on subtracting the bottom-up sensory evidence from top-down motor-related predictions. I agree, and, thus, assume that running-onset responses during the open loop in identified 'mismatch' neurons reflect the motor-related predictions of sensory input that the animal has learned to expect. If this is true, one would expect that such running-onset responses should dampen during closed-loop, when sensory evidence matches expectations and therefore cancels out this prediction. It would be nice if the authors test this explicitly by analyzing the running-related activity of the same neurons during closed-loop sessions. 

      Thank you for the suggestion. We now show running onset responses in both closed and open loop conditions for audiomotor and visuomotor coupling (new Figures 2H and 3H). In closed loop, we observe only a transient running onset response. In the open loop condition, running onset responses are sustained. For the visuomotor coupling, running onset responses are sustained in both closed and open loop conditions. This would be consistent with a slightly delayed cancellation of sound and motor related inputs in the audiomotor closed loop condition but not otherwise. 

      (3) Ambiguity in the interpretation of responses in visuomotor sessions. 

      Unlike for auditory stimuli, the authors show that there are no obvious responses to visuomotor mismatches or playback halts in the auditory cortex. However, the interpretation of these results is somewhat complicated by the uncertainty related to the training history of these mice. Were these mice exclusively trained on the visuomotor version of the task or also on the auditory version? I could not find this info in the Methods. From the legend for Figure 4D, it appears that the same mice were trained on all versions of the task. Is this the case? If yes, what was the training sequence? Were the mice first trained on the auditory and then the visual version? 

      The training history of the animals is important to outline the nature of the predictions and mismatch responses that one should expect to observe in the auditory cortex during visuomotor sessions.

      Depending on whether the mice in Figure 3 were trained on visual only or both visual and auditory tasks, the open-loop running onset responses may have different interpretations. 

      a) If the mice were trained only on the visual task, how should one interpret the strong running onset responses in the auditory cortex? Are these sensorimotor predictions (presumably of visual stimuli) that are conveyed to the auditory cortex? If so, what may be their role? 

      b) If the mice were also trained on the auditory version, then a potential explanation of the running-onset responses is that they are audiomotor predictions lingering from the previously learned sensorimotor coupling. In this case, one should expect that in the visual version of the task, these audiomotor predictions (within the auditory cortex) would not get canceled out even during the closedloop periods. In other words, mismatch neurons should constantly be in an error state (more active) in the closed-loop visuomotor task. Is this the case? 

      If so, how should one then interpret the lack of a 'visuomotor mismatch' aligned to the visual halts, over and above this background of continuous errors? 

      As such, the manuscript would benefit from clearly stating in the main text the experimental conditions such as training history, and from discussing the relevant possible interpretations of the responses. 

      Mice were not trained on either audiomotor or visuomotor coupling and were reared normally. Prior to the recording day, the mice were habituated to running on the air-supported treadmill without any coupling for up to 5 days. On the first recording day, the mice experienced all three types of sessions (audiomotor, visuomotor, or combined coupling) in a random order for the first time. We have clarified this in the methods. 

      Regarding the question of how one should interpret the strong running onset responses in the auditory cortex, this is complicated by the fact that – unless mice are raised visually or auditorily deprived – they always have life-long experience with visuomotor or audiomotor coupling. The visuomotor coupling they experience in VR is geometrically matched to what they would experience by moving in the real world, for the audiomotor coupling the exact relationship is less clear, but there are a diverse set of sound sources that scale in loudness with increasing running speed. Hence running onset responses reflect either such learned associations (as the reviewer also speculates), or spurious input. Rearing mice without coupling between movement and visual feedback does not abolish movement related responses in visual cortex (Attinger et al., 2017), to the contrary, it enhances them considerably. We suspect this reflects visual cortex being recruited for other functions in the absence of visual input. But given the data we have we cannot distinguish the different possible sources of running related responses. It is very likely that any “training” related effect we could achieve in a few hours pales in comparison to the life-long experience the mouse has in the world. 

      Regarding the lack of a 'visuomotor mismatch' aligned to the visual halts, we are not sure we understand. Our interpretation is that there are no (or only a very small - we speculate that any nonzero VM mismatch response is just inherited from visual cortex) VM mismatch responses in auditory cortex above chance. Our data are consistent with the interpretation that there is no opposition of bottom up visual and top down motor related input in auditory cortex, hence no VM mismatch responses (independent of how strong the top-down motor related input is). This is of course not surprising – this is more of a sanity check and becomes relevant in the context of interpreting AM+VM responses. 

      (4) Ambiguity in the interpretation of responses in multimodal versus unimodal sessions. 

      The authors show that multimodal (auditory + visual) mismatches trigger stronger responses than unimodal mismatches presented in isolation (auditory only or visual only). Further, they find that even though visual mismatches by themselves do not evoke a significant response, co-presentation of visual and auditory stimuli non-linearly augments the mismatch responses suggesting the presence of nonhierarchical interactions between various predictive processing streams. 

      In my opinion, this is an important result, but its interpretation is nuanced given insufficient details about the experimental design. It appears that responses to unimodal mismatches are obtained from sessions in which only one stimulus is presented (unimodal closed-loop sessions). Is this actually the case? An alternative and perhaps cleaner experimental design would be to create unimodal mismatches within a multimodal closed-loop session while keeping the other stimulus still coupled to the movement. 

      This is correct, unimodal mismatches were acquired in unimodal coupling. Testing unimodal mismatch responses in multimodally coupled VR is an interesting idea we had initially even pursued. However, halting visual flow in a condition of coupling of both visual flow and sound amplitude to running speed has an additional complication. Introducing an audiomotor mismatch in this coupling inherently also creates an audiovisual (AV) mismatch, and the same applies to visuomotor mismatches, which cause a concurrent visuoaudio (VA) mismatch (Figure R3). This assumes that there are cross modal predictions from visual cortex to auditory cortex as there are from auditory cortex to visual cortex (Garner and Keller, 2022). There are interesting differences between the different types of mismatches, but with the all the necessary passive controls this quickly exceeded the amount of data we could reasonably acquire for this paper. This remains an interesting question for future research. 

      Author response image 3.

      Rationale of unimodal mismatches introduced within multimodal paradigm. 

      Given the current experiment design (if my assumption is correct), it is unclear if the multimodal potentiation of mismatch responses is a consequence of nonlinear interactions between prediction/error signals exchanged across visual and auditory modalities. Alternatively, could this result from providing visual stimuli (coupled or uncoupled to movement) on top of the auditory stimuli? If it is the latter, would the observed results still be evidence of non-hierarchical interactions between various predictive processing streams? 

      Mice are not in complete darkness during the AM mismatch experiments (the VR is off, but there is low ambient light in the experimental rooms primarily from computer screens), so we can rule out the possibility that the difference comes from having “no” visual input during AM mismatch responses. Addressing the question of whether it is this particular stimulus that cause the increase would require an experiment in which we couple sound amplitude but keep visual flow open loop. We did not do this, but also think this is highly unlikely. However, as described above, we did do an experiment in which we coupled both sound amplitude and visual flow to running, and then either halted visual flow, or sound amplitude, or both. Comparing the [AM+VM] and [AM+AV] mismatch responses, we find that [AM+VM] responses are larger than [AM+AV] responses as one would expect from an interaction between [AM] and [VM] responses (Author response image 4). Finally, either way the conclusion that there are nonhierarchical interactions of prediction error computations holds either way – if any visual stimulus (either visuomotor mismatch, or visual flow responses) influences audiomotor mismatch responses, this is evidence of non-hierarchical interactions.   

      Author response image 4.

      Average population response of all L2/3 neurons to concurrent [AM + VM] or [AM+AV] mismatch. Gray shading indicates the duration of the stimulus.

      Along the same lines, it would be interesting to analyze how the coupling of visual as well as auditory stimuli to movement influences responses in the auditory cortex in close-loop in comparison to auditoryonly sessions. Also, do running onset responses change in open-loop in multimodal vs. unimodal playback sessions? 

      We agree, and why we started out doing the experiments described above. We stopped with this however, because it quickly became a combinatorial nightmare. We will leave addressing the question of how different types of coupling influences responses in auditory cortex to brave future neuroscientists. 

      Regarding the question of running onset responses, in both the multimodal and auditory only paradigms, running onset responses are transient; bottom-up sensory evidence is quickly subtracted from top-down motor-related prediction (Author response image 5). While there appears to be a small difference in the dynamics of running onset responses between these two paradigms, it was not significant. Note, we also have much less data than we would like here for this type of analysis. 

      Author response image 5.

      Running onset responses recorded in unimodal and multimodal closed loop sessions (1903 neurons, 16 fields of view, 8 mice)

      We also compared running onsets in open loop sessions and did not find any significant differences between unimodal and multimodal sessions (Author response image 6). We found only six sessions in which animals performed at least two running onsets in each session type, therefore, we do not have enough data to include it in the manuscript. 

      Author response image 6.

      Running onset responses recorded within unimodal and multimodal open loop sessions (659 cells, 6 field of view, 5 mice).

      Minor concerns and comments:

      (1) Rapid learning of audiomotor mismatches: It is interesting that auditory mismatches are present even on day 1 and do not appear to get stronger with learning (same on day 2). The authors comment that this could be because the coupling is learned rapidly (line 110). How does this compare to the rate at which visuomotor coupling is learned? Is this rapid learning also observable in the animal's behavior i.e. is there a change in running speed in response to the mismatch? 

      In the visual system this is a bit more complicated. If you look at visuomotor mismatch responses in a normally reared mouse, responses are present from the first mismatch (as far as we can tell given the inherently small dataset with just one response pre mouse). However, this is of course confounded by the fact that a normally reared mouse has visuomotor coupling throughout life from eye-opening. Raising mice in complete darkness, we have shown that approximately 20 min of coupling are sufficient to establish visuomotor mismatch responses (Attinger et al., 2017). 

      Regarding the behavioral changes that correlate with learning, we are not sure what the reviewer would expect. We cannot detect a change in mismatch responses and hence would also not expect to see a change in behavior.

      (2) The authors should clarify whether the sound and running onset responses of the auditory mismatch neurons in Figure 2E were acquired during open-loop. This is most likely the case, but explicitly stating it would be helpful. 

      Both responses were measured in isolation (i.e. VR off, just sound and just running onset), not in an open-loop session. We have clarified in the figure legend that these are the same data as in Figure 1H and N. 

      (3) In lines 87-88, the authors state 'Visual responses also appeared overall similar but with a small increase in strength during running ...'. This statement would benefit from clarification. From Figure S1 it appears that when the animal is sitting there are no visual responses in the auditory cortex. But when the animal is moving, small positive responses are present. Are these actually 'visual' responses - perhaps a visual prediction sent from the visual cortex to the auditory cortex that is gated by movement? If so, are they modulated by features of visual stimuli eg. contrast, intensity? Or, do these responses simply reflect motor-related activity (running)? Would they be present to the same extent in the same neurons even in the dark? 

      This was wrong indeed - we have rephrased the statement as suggested. Regarding the source of visual responses, we use the term “visual response” operationally here agnostic to what pathway might be driving it (i.e. it could be a prediction triggered by visual input). 

      We did not test if recorded visual responses are modulated by contrast or intensity. However, testing whether they are would not help us distinguish whether the responses are ‘visual’ or ‘visual predictions’. Finally, regarding the question about whether they are motor-related responses, this might be a misunderstanding. These are responses to visual stimuli while the mouse is already running (i.e. there is no running onset), hence we cannot test whether these responses are present in the dark (this would be the equivalent of looking at random triggers in the dark while the mouse is running).  

      (4) The authors comment in the text (lines 106-107) about cessation of sound amplitude during audiomotor mismatches as being analogous to halting of visual flow in visuomotor mismatches. However, sound amplitude versus visual flow are quite different in nature. In the visuomotor paradigm, the amount of visual stimulation (photons per unit time) does not necessarily change systematically with running speed. Whereas, in the audiomotor paradigm, the SNR of the stimulus itself changes with running speed which may impact the accuracy of predictions. On a broader note, under natural settings, while the visual flow is coupled to movement, sound amplitude may vary more idiosyncratically with movement. 

      This is a question of coding space. The coding space of visual cortex of the mouse is probably visual flow (or change in image) not number of photons. This already starts in the retina. The demonstration of this is quite impressive. A completely static image on the retina will fade to zero response (even though the number of photons remains constant). This is also why most visual physiologists use dynamic stimuli – e.g. drifting gratings, not static gratings – to map visual responses in visual cortex. If responses were linear in number of photons, this would make less of a difference. The correspondence we make is between visual flow (which we assume is the main coding space of mouse V1 – this is not established fact, but probably implicitly the general consensus of the field) and sound amplitude. Responses in auditory cortex are probably more linear in sound amplitude than visual cortex responses are linear in number of photons, but whether that is the correct coding space is still unclear, and as far as we can tell there is no clear consensus in the field. We did consider coupling running speed to frequency, which may work as well, but given the possible equivalence (as argued above) and the fact that we could see similar responses with sound amplitude coupling we did not explore frequency coupling. 

      If visual speed is the coding space of V1, SNR should behave equivalently in both cases. 

      Perhaps such differences might explain why unlike in the case of visual cortex experiments, running speed does not affect the strength of playback responses in the auditory cortex. 

      Possible, but the more straightforward framing of this point is that sensory responses are enhanced by running in visual cortex while they are not in auditory cortex. A playback halt response (by design) is just a sensory response. Why running does not generally increase sensory responses in auditory cortex (L2/3 neurons), but does so in visual cortex, would be the more general version of the same question.

      We fear we have no intelligent answer to this question.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      This study explores sensory prediction errors in the sensory cortex. It focuses on the question of how these signals are shaped by non-hierarchical interactions, specifically multimodal signals arising from same-level cortical areas. The authors used 2-photon imaging of mouse auditory cortex in head-fixed mice that were presented with sounds and/or visual stimuli while moving on a ball. First, responses to pure tones, visual stimuli, and movement onset were characterized. Then, the authors made the running speed of the mouse predictive of sound intensity and/or visual flow. Mismatches were created through the interruption of sound and/or visual flow for 1 second while the animal moved, disrupting the expected sensory signal given the speed of movement. As a control, the same sensory stimuli triggered by the animal's movement were presented to the animal decoupled from its movement. The authors suggest that auditory responses to the unpredicted silence reflect mismatch responses. That these mismatch responses were enhanced when the visual flow was congruently interrupted, indicates the cross-modal influence of prediction error signals. 

      This study's strengths are the relevance of the question and the design of the experiment. The authors are experts in the techniques used. The analysis explores neither the full power of the experimental design nor the population activity recorded with 2-photon, leaving open the question of to what extent what the authors call mismatch responses are not sensory responses to sound interruption. The auditory system is sensitive to transitions and indeed responses to the interruption of the sound are similar in quality, if not quantity, in the predictive and the control situation. 

      This study's strengths are the relevance of the question and the design of the experiment. The authors are experts in the techniques used. The analysis explores neither the full power of the experimental design nor the population activity recorded with 2-photon, leaving open the question of to what extent what the authors call mismatch responses are not sensory responses to sound interruption. The auditory system is sensitive to transitions and indeed responses to the interruption of the sound are similar in quality, if not quantity, in the predictive and the control situation. The pattern they observe is different from the visuomotor mismatch responses the authors found in V1 (Keller et al., 2012), where the interruption of visual flow did not activate neuronal activity in the decoupled condition. 

      Just to add brief context to this. The reviewer is correct here, the (Keller et al., 2012) paper reports finding no responses to playback halt. However, this was likely a consequence of indicator sensitivity (these experiments were done with what now seems like a pre-historic version of GCaMP). Experiments performed with more modern indicators do find playback halt responses in visual cortex (see e.g. (Zmarz and Keller, 2016)). 

      The auditory system is sensitive to transitions, also those to silence. See the work of the Linden or the Barkat labs on-off responses, and also that of the Mesgarani lab (Khalighinejad et al., 2019) on responses to transitions 'to clean' (Figure 1c) in the human auditory cortex. Since the responses described in the current work are modulated by movement and the relationship between movement and sound is more consistent during the coupled sessions, this could explain the difference in response size between coupled and uncoupled sessions. There is also the question of learning. Prediction signals develop over a period of several days and are frequency-specific (Schneider et al., 2018). From a different angle, in Keller et al. 2012, mismatch responses decrease over time as one might expect from repetition. 

      Also for brief context, this might be a misconception. We don’t find a decrease of mismatch responses in the (Keller et al., 2012) paper – we assume what the reviewer is referring to is the fact that mismatch responses decrease in open-loop conditions (they normally do not in closed-loop conditions). This is the behavior one would expect if the mouse learns that movement no longer predicts visual feedback. 

      It would help to see the responses to varying sound intensity as a function of previous intensity, and to plot the interruption response as a function of both transition and movement in both conditions. 

      Given the large populations of neurons recorded and the diversity of the responses, from clearly negative to clearly positive, it would be interesting to understand better whether the diversity reflects the diversity of sounds used or a diversity of cell types, or both. 

      Comments and questions: 

      Does movement generate a sound and does this change with the speed of movement? It would be useful to have this in the methods. 

      There are three ways to interpret the question – below the answers to all three:

      (1) Running speed is experimentally coupled to sound amplitude of a tone played through a loudspeaker. Tone amplitude is scaled with running speed of the mouse in a closed loop fashion. We assume this is not what the reviewer meant, as this is described in the methods (and the results section). 

      (2) Movements of the mouse naturally generate sounds (footsteps, legs moving against fur, etc.). Most of these sounds trivially scale with the frequency of leg movements – we assume this also not what the reviewer meant. 

      (3) Finally, there are experimental sounds related to the rotation speed of the air supported treadmill that increase with running speed of the mouse. We have added this to the methods as suggested. 

      Figures 1a and 2a. The mouse is very hard to see. Focus on mouse, objective, and sensory stimuli? The figures are generally very clear though. 

      We have enlarged the mouse as suggested. 

      1A-K was the animal running while these responses were measured? 

      We did not restrict this analysis to running or sitting and pooled responses over both conditions.  We have made this more explicit in the results section.  

      Data in Figure 1: Since the modulation of sensory responses by movement is relevant for the mismatch responses, I would move this analysis from S1 to Figure 1 and analyze the responses more finely in terms of running speed relative to sound and gratings. I would include here a more thorough analysis of the responses to 8kHz at varying intensities, for example in the decoupled sessions. Does the response adapt? Does it follow the intensity? 

      We agree that these are interesting questions, but they do not directly pertain to our conclusions here. The key point Figure S1 addresses is whether auditory responses are generally enhanced by running (as they are e.g. in visual cortex) – the answer, on average, is no. We have tried emphasizing this more, but it changes the flow of the paper away from our main message, hence we have left the panels in the supplements. 

      Regarding the 8kHz modulation, there is a general increase of the suppression of activity with increasing sound amplitude (Author response image 7 and Author response image 8). But due to the continuously varying amplitude of the stimulus, we do not have sufficient data (or do not know how to with the data we have) to address questions of adaptation. We assume there is some form of adaptation. However, either way, we don’t see how this would change our conclusions. 

      Author response image 7.

      Neural activity as a function of sound level in an AM open loop session. 

      Author response image 8.

      The average sound evoked population response of all ACx layer 2/3 neurons to 60 dB or 75 dB 8 kHz pure tones. Stimulus duration was 1 s (gray shading).

      2C-D why not talk of motor modulation? Paralleling what happens in response to auditory and visual stimuli? 

      This is correct, a mismatch response (we use mismatch here to operationally describe the stimulus – not the interpretation) can be described either as a prediction error (this is the interpretation) or a stimulus specific motor modulation. Note, the key here is “stimulus specific”. It is stimulus specific as there is an approximately 3x change between mismatch and playback halt (the same sensory stimulus with and without locomotion), but basically no change for sound onsets (Figure S1). Having said that, one explanation (prediction error) has predictive power (and hence is testable – see e.g. (Vasilevskaya et al., 2023) for an extensive discussion on exactly this argument for mismatch responses in visual cortex), while the other does not (a “stimulus specific” motor modulation has no predictive value or computational theory behind it and is simply a description). Thus, we choose to interpret it as a prediction error. Note, this finding does not stand in isolation and many of the testable predictions of the predictive processing interpretation have turned out to be correct (see e.g. (Keller and Mrsic-Flogel, 2018) for a review). 

      Note, we try to only use the interpretation of “prediction error” when motivating why we do the experiments, and in the discussion, but not directly in the description of the results (e.g. in Figure 2).  

      How does the mismatch affect the behavior of the mouse? Does it stop running? This could also influence the size of the response. 

      We quantified animal behavior during audiomotor mismatches and did not find any significant acceleration or slowing down upon mismatch events. Thus, neural responses recorded during AM mismatches are unlikely to be explained by changes in animal behavior. These data have been added in Figure S2A and Figure S4A.

      Figure 3. What about neurons that were positively modulated by both grating and movement? How do these neurons respond to the mismatch? 

      Neurons positively modulated by both grating and movement were slightly more responsive to MM than the rest of the population, though this difference was not significant (Author response image 9). This is also visible in Figure 3G – the high VM mismatch responsive neurons are randomly distributed in regard to correlation with running speed and visual flow speed. 

      Author response image 9.

      Responses to visuomotor mismatches of neurons positively modulated by grating and movement and remaining of the population.

      Line 176. The authors say 'Thus, in the case of a [AM + VM] mismatch both the halted visual flow and the halted sound amplitude are predicted by running speed' but the mismatch (halted flow and amplitude) is not predicted by the speed, correct? Please rephrase. 

      Thank you for pointing this out – this was indeed phrased incorrectly. We have corrected this. 

      How was the sound and/or visual flow interruption triggered? Did the animal have to run at a minimum speed in order for it to happen?

      Sound and visual flow interruptions were triggered randomly, independent of the animal's running speed. However, for the analysis, only MM presentations during which animals were running at a speed of at least 0.3 cm/s were included. The 0.3 cm/s was simply the (arbitrary) threshold we used to determine if the mouse was running. In a completely stationary mouse a mismatch event will not have any effect (sound amplitude/visual flow speed are already at 0). This is described in the methods section.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors addressed how long-range interactions between boundary elements are established and influence their function in enhancer specificity. Briefly, the authors placed two different reporters separated by a boundary element. They inserted this construct ectopically ~140 kb away from an endogenous locus that contains the same boundary element. The authors used expression patterns driven by nearby enhancers as an output to determine which enhancers the reporters interact with. They complemented this analysis with 3D DNA contact mapping. The authors found that the orientation of the boundary element determined which enhancers each reporter interacted with. They proposed that the 3D interaction topology, whether being circular or stem configuration, distinguished whether the interaction was cohesin mediated or through an independent mechanism termed pairing.

      Strengths:

      The transgene expression assays are built upon prior knowledge of the enhancer activities. The 3D DNA contacts confirm that transgene expression correlates with the contacts. Using 4 different orientations covers all combinations of the reporter genes and the boundary placement.

      Weaknesses:

      The interpretation of the data as a refusal of loop extrusion playing a role in TAD formation is not warranted, as the authors did not deplete the loop extruders to show that what they measure is independent.

      (1.1) To begin with, our findings do not exclude the possibility that cohesin loop extrusion has some sort of role in the formation or maintenance of TADs in flies or other aspects of chromosome structure.  On the other hand, it clearly is not determinative in defining the end-points of TADs or in generating the resulting topology (stem-loop or circle-loop).  Our main point, which we feel we have established unequivocally, is that it can’t explain many essential features of TADs or chromosome loops (see below) in Drosophila.  This reviewer agrees with this point in their next paragraph (below).  We also think that the loop extrusion model’s general acceptance as THE driving force behind TAD formation in mammals is unwarranted and not fully consistent with the available data, as explained below.

      As to the reviewer’s specific point regarding depletion of loop extruders, we first note that completely eliminating factors encoding cohesin subunits in fly embryos isn’t readily feasible.  As cohesin is essential starting at the beginning of embryonic development, and is maternally deposited, knockdowns/depletions would likely be incomplete and there would always be some remaining activity.  As long as there is some residual activity—and no disruption in TAD formation is observed—this experimental test would be a failure.  In addition, any defects that are observed might arise not from a failure in TAD formation via loop extrusion but rather because the rapid mitotic cycles would be disrupted.  A far better approach would be to deplete/knockdown cohesin subunits in tissue culture cells, as there is no requirement for the cells to undergo embryonic development.  Moreover, since cell division is relatively slow, the depletion would likely eliminate much if not all of the activity before a checkpoint is reached.

      While a drastic depletion of cohesin is not feasible in our model organism, we would draw the reviewer’s attention to an experiment of this type which has already been done in mammalian tissue culture cells by Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023).  Unlike most Hi-C studies in mammals, the authors used region capture MicroC (RCMC).  In contrast to published genome-wide mammalian MicroC experiments (c.f., (Hsieh et al. 2020; Krietenstein et al. 2020)) which require large bin sizes to visualize mammalian “TADs,” the resolution of the experiments in Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023) is similar to the resolution in our MicroC experiments (200-400 bp).  A MicroC contact map from Goel et al. shows the Pdm1g locus on chromosome 5 before and after Rad21 depletion.  The contact map visualizes a 250 kb DNA segment, which is only slightly larger than the ~230 kb DNA segment in Fig. 2C in our paper.

      In this experiment, there was a 97% reduction in the amount of Rad21.  However, as can be seen by comparing the contact profiles above and below the diagonal, there is little or no difference in TAD organization after cohesin depletion when individual TADs are visualized with a bin size of 250 bp.  These results would indicate that mammalian TADs do not require cohesin.

      Note also that the weak 45o stripes connecting different TADs (c.f. blue/green arrowheads) are still present after Rad21 depletion.  In the most popular version of the loop extrusion model, cohesin loads at a site(s) somewhere in the TAD-to-be, and then extrudes both strands until it bumps into CTCF roadblocks.  As illustrated in Figure Sup 2, this mechanism generates a vertical stripe originating at the cohesin loading site and extending until cohesin bumps into the left or right roadblock, at which point the stripe transitions into 45o stripe that ends when cohesin bumps into the other roadblock.  While 45o stripes are visible, there is no hint of a vertical stripe.  This suggests that the mechanism for generating stripes, if it is an active mechanism (rather than passive diffusion) may be quite different.  The 45o stripes must be generated by a factor(s) that is anchored to one (blue arrowhead) or both (green arrowhead) boundaries.  In addition, this factor, whatever it is, is not cohesin.  The reason for this is that the 45o stripes are present both before and after Rad21 depletion.  Moreover, if one were to imagine that the stripes represent a process involved in TAD formation, this process does not require cohesin (see Goel et al 2023).

      It is worth noting another observation that is inconsistent with the cohesin loop extrusion/CTCF roadblock model for TAD formation/maintenance.  CTCF is not found at all of the TAD boundaries in this 250 kb DNA region.  This would suggest that there are other DNA binding proteins that have chromosomal architectural functions besides CTCF.  In flies, many of the chromosomal architectural proteins are, like CTCF, polydactyl zinc finger (PZF) proteins (Bonchuk et al. 2021; Bonchuk et al. 2022; Fedotova et al. 2017).  These include Su(Hw), CTCF, Pita, Zipic and CLAMP.  The PZF family in flies is quite large.  There are ~250 different PZF genes, and since only a handful of these have been characterized, it seems likely that additional members of this family will have architectural functions.  Thus far, only one boundary protein, CTCF, has received attention in studies on mammalian chromosome architecture.  As the mammalian genome is much larger and more complicated than the fly genome, it is difficult to believe that CTCF is the sole chromosomal architectural protein in mammals.  In this respect, it is worth noting that there are ~800 members of the PZF family in mammalian genomes (Fedotova et al. 2017).

      Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023) did observe alterations in the contact profiles after Rad21 depletion when they visualized the Ppm1g region at much lower resolution (bin sizes of 5 kb and 1 kb). The 5 kb bin size visualizes a region of ~1.2 Mb, while the 1 kb bin size visualizes a region that spans ~800 kb.  These large triangular units do not correspond to the individual TADs seen when Goel et al. visualized the Ppm1g locus at 250 bp resolution. 

      Nor do they correspond to TADs in Fig. 2 of our paper.  Instead they represent TAD neighborhoods which, likely consist of 20-30 or more individual TADs.  Consequently the alterations in contact patterns seen after Rad21 depletion are occurring at the level of TAD neighborhoods.  This can be seen by comparing pixel density inside the blue lines before (above the diagonal) and after Rad21 depletion (below the diagonal) (Goel et al 2023).  The more distant contacts between individual TADs within this neighborhood are preferentially reduced by Rad21 depletion (the region below and to the left of the double arrowhead).  By contrast, the TADs themselves are unaffected, as are contacts between individual TADs and their immediate neighbors (see purple and light green asterisk).  The other interesting feature is the loss of contacts between what appears to be partially overlapping neighborhoods.  This loss of neighborhood-toneighborhood contacts can be seen in the region located between the green and blue lines.  The neighborhood that appears to partially overlap the Ppm1g neighborhood is outlined in purple.

      It worth noting that, with the exception of the high resolution experiments in Goel et al., all of the other studies on cohesin (and CTCF) have examined the effects on contact maps within (and between) large neighborhoods (bin sizes >1 kb).  In most cases, these large neighborhoods are likely to be composed of many individual TADs like those seen in Goel et al. and in Fig. 2 of our paper.  We also observe larger neighborhoods in the fly genome, though they do not appear to be as large as those in mammals.  Our experiments do not address what role cohesin might have in facilitating contacts between more distant TADs located within the same neighborhoods, or between TADs in different neighborhoods, or whether loop extrusion is involved.

      We would also note that the Drosophila DNA segment in Fig. 2C contains 35 different genes, while the mammalian DNA segment shown in Fig. 1 has only 9.  Thus, in this part of the fly genome, Pol II genes are more densely packed than in the mammalian DNA segment.  Much of the fly genome is also densely packed, and the size of individual TADs will likely be smaller, on average, than in mammals.  Nevertheless, the MicroC profiles are not all that different.  As is also common in flies, each TAD in the Ppm1g region only encompasses one or two genes.  Note also that there are no volcano triangles with plumes as would be predicted for TADs that have a stem-loop topology.

      In fact, as shown in Author response image 1, the high-resolution contact profile for the Ppm1g region shows a strong resemblance to that observed for the fly Abd-B regulatory domains.  These regulatory domains are part of larger neighborhood that encompasses the abd-A and Abd-B genes and their regulatory domains.

      Author response image 1.

      Abd-B regulatory domains

      As the authors show, the single long DNA loop mediated by cohesin loop extrusion connecting the ectopic and endogenous boundary is clearly inconsistent with the results, therefore the main conclusion of the paper that the 3D topology of the boundary elements a consequence of pairing is strong. However, the loop extrusion and pairing are not mutually exclusive models for the formation of TADs. Loop-extruding cohesin complexes need not make a 140 kb loop, multiple smaller loops could bring together the two boundary elements, which are then held together by pairing proteins that can make circular topologies.

      (1.2) In the pairing model, distant boundaries bump into each other (by random walks or partially constrained walks), and if they are “compatible” they pair with each other, typically in an orientation-dependent manner.  As an alternative, the reviewer argues that cohesin need not make one large 140 kb loop.  Instead it could generate a series of smaller loops (presumably corresponding to the intervening TADs).  These smaller loops would bring homie in the transgene in close proximity to the eve locus so that it could interact with the endogenous homie and nhomie elements in the appropriate orientation, and in this way only one of the reporters would be ultimately activated.

      There are two problems with the idea that cohesin-dependent loop extrusion brings transgene homie into contact with homie/nhomie in the eve locus by generating a series of small loops (TADs).  The first is the very large distances over which specific boundary:boundary pairing interactions can occur.  The second is that boundary:boundary pairing interactions can take place not only in cis, but also in trans.

      We illustrate these points with several examples. 

      Fujioka et al. 2016, Fig 7 shows an experiment in which attP sites located ~2 Mb apart were used to insert two different transgenes, one containing a lacZ reporter and the other containing the eve anal plate enhancer (AP) (Fujioka et al. 2016).  If the lacZ reporter and the AP transgenes also contain homie, the AP enhancer can activate lacZ expression (panel A,).  On the other hand, if one of the transgenes has lambda DNA instead of homie, no regulatory interactions are observed (panel A,).  In addition, as is the case in our experiments using the -142 kb platform, orientation matters.  In the combination on the top left, the homie boundary is pointing away from both the lacZ reporter and the AP enhancer.  Since homie pairs with itself head-tohead, pairing brings the AP enhancer into contact with the lacZ reporter.  A different result is obtained for the transgene pair in panel A on the top right.  In this combination, homie is pointing away from the lacZ reporter, while it is pointing towards the AP enhancer.  As a consequence, the reporter and enhancer are located on opposite sides of the paired homie boundaries, and in this configuration they are unable to interact with each other.

      On the top left of panel B, the homie element in the AP enhancer transgene was replaced by a nhomie boundary oriented so that it is pointing towards the enhancer.  Pairing of homie and nhomie head-to-tail brings the AP enhancer in the nhomie transgene into contact with the lacZ reporter in the homie transgene, and it activates reporter expression.  Finally, like homie, nhomie pairs with itself head-to-head, and when the nhomie boundaries are pointing towards both the AP reporter and the lacZ reporter, reporter expression is turned on.

      Long distance boundary-dependent pairing interactions by the bithorax complex Mcp boundary have also been reported in several papers.  Fig. 6 from Muller et al. (Muller et al. 1999) shows the pattern of regulatory interactions (in this case PRE-dependent “pairing-sensitive silencing”) between transgenes that have a mini-white reporter, the Mcp and scs’ boundaries and a PRE that is located close to Mcp.  In this experiment flies carrying transgenes inserted at the indicated sites on the left and right arms of the 3rd chromosome were mated in pairwise combinations, and their trans-heterozygous progeny examined for pairing-sensitive silencing of the mini-white reporter.

      Two examples of long-distance pairing-sensitive silencing mediated by Mcp/scs’ are shown in Fig. 5b from Muller et al. 1999.  The transgene inserts in panel A are w#12.43 and ff#10.5w#12.43 is inserted close to the telomere of 3R at 99B.  ff10.5 is inserted closer to the middle of 3R at 91A.  The estimate distance between them is 11.3 Mb.  The transgene inserts in panel B are ff#10.5 and ff#11.102ff#11.102 is inserted at 84D, and the distance between them is 11 Mb.  Normally, the eye color phenotype of the mini-white reporter is additive: homozygyous inserts have twice as dark eye color as hemizygous inserts, while in trans-_heterozygous flies the eye color would be the sum of the two different transgenes.  However, when a PRE is present and the transgene can pair, silencing is observed.  In panel A, the t_rans-_heterozygous combination has a lighter eye color than either of the parents.  In panel B, the _trans-_heterozygous combination is darker than one of the parents (_ff#10.5) but much lighter than the other (ff#11.102).

      All ten of the transgenes tested were able to engage in long distance (>Mbs) trans_regulatory interactions; however, likely because of how the chromosome folds on the Mb scale (e.g., the location of meta-loops: see #2.1 and Author response image 3) not all of the possible pairwise silencing interactions are observed.  The silencing interactions shown in Muller et.al. are between transgenes inserted on different homologs.  _Mcp/scs'-dependent silencing interactions can also occur in cis. Moreover, just like the homie and nhomie experiments described above, Muller et.al. (Muller et al. 1999) found that Mcp could mediate long-distance activation of mini-white and yellow by their respective enhancers.

      The pairing-sensitive activity of the PRE associated with the Mcp boundary is further enhanced when the mini-white transgene has the scs boundary in addition to Mcp and scs’.  In the experiment shown in Fig. 8 from Muller et al. 1999, the pairing-sensitive silencing interactions of the Mcp/scs’/scs transgene are between transgenes inserted on different chromosomes.  Panel A shows pairing-sensitive silencing between w#15.60, which is on the X chromosome, and w#15.102, which is on the 2nd chromosome.  Panel B shows pairing-sensitive silencing between the 2nd chromosome insert w#15.60 and a transgene, w#15.48, which is inserted on the 3rd chromosome.

      The long-distance trans and cis interactions described here are not unique to homie, nhomie, Mcp, scs’, or scs.  Precisely analogous results have been reported by Sigrist and Pirrotta (Sigrist and Pirrotta 1997) for the gypsy boundary when the bxd PRE was included in the mini-white transgene.  Also like the Mcp-containing transgenes in Muller et al. (Muller et al. 1999), Sigrist and Pirrotta observed pairing-sensitive silencing between gypsy bxd_PRE _mini-white transgenes inserted on different chromosomes.  Similar long-distance (Mb) interactions have been reported for Fab-7 (Bantignies et al. 2003; Li et al. 2011).  In addition, there are examples of “naturally occurring” long-distance regulatory and/or physical interactions.  One would be the regulatory/physical interactions between the p53 enhancer upstream of reaper and Xrp1 which was described by Link et al. (Link et al. 2013).  Another would be the nearly 60 meta-loops identified by Mohana et al. (Mohana et al. 2023).

      Like homie at -142 kb, the regulatory interactions (pairing-sensitive silencing and enhancer activation of reporters) reported in Muller et al. (Muller et al. 1999) involve direct physical interactions between the transgenes.  Vazquez et al. (Vazquez et al. 2006) used the lacI/lacO system to visualize contacts between distant scs/Mcp/scs’-containing transgenes in imaginal discs.  As indicated in Vasquez et al. 2006, Table 3 lines #4-7,  when both transgenes have Mcp and were inserted on the same chromosome, they colocalized in trans-_heterozygotes (single dot) in 94% to 97% of the disc nuclei in the four pairwise combinations they tested.  When the transgenes both lacked _Mcp (Vasquez et al. 2006, Table 3 #1), co-localization was observed in 4% of the nuclei.  When scs/Mcp/scs’-containing transgenes on the 2nd and 3rd chromosome were combined (Vasquez et al. 2006, Table 3 #8), colocalization was observed in 96% of the nuclei.  They also showed that four different scs/Mcp/scs’ transgenes (two at the same insertion site but on different homologs, and two at different sites on different homologs) co-localized in 94% of the eye imaginal disc nuclei (Vasquez et al. 2006, Table 3 #9).  These pairing interactions were also found to be stable over several hours.  Similar co-localization experiments together with 3C were reported by Li et al. (Li et al. 2011).

      The de novo establishment of trans interactions between compatible boundary elements has been studied by Lim et al. (Lim et al. 2018).  These authors visualized transvection (enhancer activation of a MS2 loop reporter in trans) mediated by the gypsy insulator, homie and Fab-8  in NC14 embryos.  When both transgenes shared the same boundary element, transvection/physical pairing was observed in a small subset of embryos.  The interactions took place after a delay and increased in frequency as the embryo progressed into NC14.  As expected, transvection was specific: it was not observed when the transgenes had different boundaries.  For homie it was also orientation-dependent.  It was observed when homie was orientated in the same direction in both transgenes, but not when homie was orientated in opposite directions in the two transgenes.

      While one could imagine that loop extrusion-dependent compaction of the chromatin located between eve and the transgene at -142 kb into a series of small loops (the intervening TADs) might be able to bring homie in the transgene close to homie/nhomie in the eve locus, there is no cohesinbased loop extrusion scenario that would bring transgenes inserted at sites 6 Mb, 11 Mb, on different sides of the centromere, or at opposite ends of the 3rd chromosome together so that the distant boundaries recognize their partners and physically pair with each other.  Nor is there a plausible cohesin-based loop extrusion mechanism that could account for the fact that most of the documented long-distance interactions involve transgenes inserted on different homologs.  This is not to mention the fact that long-distance interactions are also observed between boundarycontaining transgenes inserted on different chromosomes.

      In fact, given these results, one would logically come to precisely the opposite conclusion.  If boundary elements inserted Mbs apart, on different homologs and on different chromosomes can find each other and physically pair, it would be reasonable to think that the same mechanism (likely random collisions) is entirely sufficient when they are only 142 kb apart.

      Yet another reason to doubt the involvement or need for cohesin-dependent loop extrusion in bringing the transgene homie in contact with the eve locus comes from the studies of Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023).  They show that cohesin has no role in the formation of TADs in mammalian tissue culture cells.  So if TADs in mammals aren’t dependent on cohesin, there would not be a good reason to think at this point that the loops (TADs) that are located between eve and the transgene are generated by, or even strongly dependent on, cohesin-dependent loop extrusion.

      It is also important to note that even if loop-extrusion were to contribute to chromatin compaction in this context and make the looping interactions that lead to orientation-specific pairing more efficient, the role of loop extrusion in this model is not determinative of the outcome, it is merely a general compaction mechanism.  This is a far cry from the popular concept of loop extrusion as being THE driving force determining chromosome topology at the TAD level.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In Bing et al, the authors analyze micro-C data from NC14 fly embryos, focusing on the eve locus, to assess different models of chromatin looping. They conclude that fly TADs are less consistent with conventional cohesin-based loop extrusion models and instead rely more heavily on boundaryboundary pairings in an orientation-dependent manner.

      Overall, I found the manuscript to be interesting and thought-provoking. However, this paper reads much more like a perspective than a research article. Considering eLIFE is aimed at the general audience, I strongly suggest the authors spend some time editing their introduction to the most salient points as well as organizing their results section in a more conventional way with conclusion-based titles. It was very difficult to follow the authors' logic throughout the manuscript as written. It was also not clear as written which experiments were performed as part of this study and which were reanalyzed but published elsewhere. This should be made clearer throughout.

      It has been shown several times that Drosophila Hi-C maps do not contain all of the features (frequent corner peaks, stripes, etc.) observed when compared to mammalian cells. Considering these features are thought to be products of extrusion events, it is not an entirely new concept that Drosophila domains form via mechanisms other than extrusion.

      (2.1) While there are differences between the Hi-C contact profiles in flies and mammals, these differences likely reflect in large part the bin sizes used to visualize contact profiles.  With the exception of Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023), most of the mammalian Hi-C studies have been low resolution restriction enzyme-based experiments, and required bin sizes of >1 kb or greater to visualize what are labeled as  “TADs.”  In fact, as shown by experiments in Goel et al., these are not actually TADs, but rather a conglomeration of multiple TADs into a series of TAD neighborhoods.  The same is true for the MicroC experiments of Krietenstein et al. and Hsieh et al. on human and mouse tissue culture cells (Hsieh et al. 2020; Krietenstein et al. 2020).  This is shown in Author response image 2.  In this image, we have compared the MicroC profiles generated from human and mouse tissue culture cells with fly MicroC profiles at different levels of resolution.

      For panels A-D, the genomic DNA segments shown are approximately 2.8 Mb, 760 kb, 340 kb, and 190 kb.  For panels E-H, the genomic DNA segments shown are approximately 4.7 Mb, 870 kb, 340 kb and 225 kb.  For panels I-L, the genomic DNA segments shown are approximately 3 Mb, 550 kb, 290 kb and 175 kb.

      As reported for restriction enzyme-based Hi-C experiments, a series of stripes and dots are evident in mammalian MicroC profiles.  In the data from Krietenstein et al., two large TAD “neighborhoods” are evident with a bin size of 5 kb, and these are bracketed by 45o stripes (A: black arrows).  At 1 kb (panel B), the 45o stripe bordering the neighborhood on the left no longer defines the edge of the neighborhood (blue arrow: panel B), and both stripes become discontinuous (fuzzy dots).  At 500 (panel C) and 200 bp (panel D) bin sizes, the stripes largely disappear (black arrows) even though they were the most prominent feature in the TAD landscape with large bin sizes.  At 200 bp, the actual TADs (as opposed to the forest) are visible, but weakly populated.  There are no stripes, and only one of the TADs has an obvious “dot” (green asterisk: panel C).

      Author response image 2.

      Mammalian MicroC profiles different bin sizes.

      Large TAD neighborhoods bordered by stripes are also evident in the Hsieh et al. data set in Author response image 2 panels E and F (black arrows in E and F and green arrow in F).  At 400 bp resolution (panel G), the narrow stripe in panel F (black arrows) becomes much broader, indicating that it is likely generated by interactions across one or two small TADs that can be discerned at 200 bp resolution.  The same is true for the broad stripe indicated by the green arrows in panels F, G and H.  This stripe arises from contacts between the TADs indicated by the red bar in panels G and H and the TADs to the other side of the volcano triangle with a plume (blue arrow in panel H).  As in flies, we would expect that this volcano triangle topped by a plume corresponds to a stem-loop.  However, the resolution is poor at 200 bp, and the profiles of the neighboring TADs are not very distinct.

      For the fly data set, stripes can be discerned when analyzed at 800 bp resolution (see arrows in Author response image 3);  however, these stripes are flanked by regions of lower contact, and represent TAD-TAD interactions.  At 400 bp, smaller neighborhoods can be discerned, and these neighborhoods exhibit a complex pattern of interaction with adjacent neighborhoods.  With bin sizes of 200 bp, individual TADs are observed, as are TAD-TAD interactions like those seen near eve.  Some of the TADs have dots at their apex, while others do not—much like what is seen in the mammalian MicroC studies.

      Author response image 3.

      Mammalian MicroC profiles different bin sizes.

      Stripes: As illustrated in Author response image 2 A-D and E-H, the continuous stripes seen in low resolution mammalian studies (>1 kb bins) would appear to arise from binning artefacts.  At high resolution where single TADs are visible, the stripes seem to be generated by TAD-TAD interactions, and not by some type of “extrusion” mechanism.  This is most clearly seen for the volcano with plume TAD in Author response inage 2 G and H.  While stripes in Author response image 2 disappear at high resolution, this is not always true.  There are stripes that appear to be “real” in Geol et al. 2023 for the TADs in the Ppm1g region, and in Author response image 1 for the Abd-B regulatory domain TADs.  Since the stripes in the Ppm1g region are unaffected by Rad21 depletion, some other mechanism must be involved (c.f. (Shidlovskii et al. 2021)).

      Dots: The high resolution images of mammalian MicroC experiments in Author response image 2D and H show that, like Drosophila (Author response image 3L), mammalian TADs don’t always have a “dot” at the apex of the triangle.  This is not surprising.  In the MicroC procedure, fixed chromatin is digested to mononucleosomes with MNase.  Since most TAD boundaries in flies, and presumably also in mammals, are relatively large (150-400 bp) nuclease hypersensitive regions, extensive MNase digestion will typically reduce the boundary element sequences to oligonucleotides.

      In flies, the only known sequences (at least to date) that end up giving dots (like those seen in Author response image 1) are bound by a large (>1,000 kd) GAF-containing multiprotein complex called LBC.  In the Abd-B region of BX-C, LBC binds to two ~180 bp sequences in Fab-7 (dHS1 and HS3: (Kyrchanova et al. 2018; Wolle et al. 2015), and to the centromere proximal (CP) side of Fab-8.  The LBC elements in Fab-7 (dHS1) and Fab-8 (CP) have both blocking and boundary bypass activity (Kyrchanova et al. 2023; Kyrchanova et al. 2019a; Kyrchanova et al. 2019b; Postika et al. 2018).  Elsewhere, LBC binds to the bx and bxd PREs in the Ubx regulatory domains, to two PREs upstream of engrailed, to the hsp70 promoter, the histone H3-H4 promoters, and the eve promoter (unpublished data).  Based on ChIP signatures, it likely binds to most PREs/tethering elements in the fly genome (Batut et al. 2022; Li et al. 2023).  Indirect end-labeling experiments (Galloni et al. 1993; Samal et al. 1981; Udvardy and Schedl 1984) indicate that LBC protects an ~150-180 bp DNA segment from MNase digestion, which would explain why LBC-bound sequences are able to generate dots in MicroC experiments.  Also unlike typical boundary elements, the pairing interactions of the LBC elements we’ve tested appear to be orientation-independent (unpublished data).

      The difference in MNase sensitivity between typical TAD boundaries and LBC-bound elements is illustrated in the MicroC of the Leukocyte-antigen-related-like (Lar) meta-loop in Author response image 4 panels A and B.  Direct physical pairing of two TAD boundaries (blue and purple) brings two TADs encompassing the 125 kb lar gene into contact with two TADs in a gene poor region 620 kb away.  This interaction generates two regions of greatly enhanced contact: the two boxes on either side of the paired boundaries (panel A).  Note that like transgene homie pairing with the eve boundaries, the boundary pairing interaction that forms the lar meta-loop is orientation-dependent.  In this case the TAD boundary in the Lar locus pairs with the TAD boundary in the gene poor region head-to-head (arrow tip to arrow tip), generating a circle-loop.  This circle-loop configuration brings the TAD upstream of the blue boundary into contact with the TAD upstream of the purple boundary.  Likewise, the TAD downstream of the blue boundary is brought into contact with the TAD downstream of the purple boundary.

      In the MicroC procedure, the sequences that correspond to the paired boundaries are not recovered (red arrow in Author response image 4 panel B).  This is why there are vertical and horizontal blank stripes (red arrowheads) emanating from the missing point of contact.  Using a different HiC procedure (dHS-C) that allows us to recover sequences from typical boundary elements (Author response image 4 panels C and D), there is a strong “dot” at the point of contact which corresponds to the pairing of the blue and purple boundaries.

      There is a second dot (green arrow) within the box that represents physical contacts between sequences in the TADs downstream of the blue and purple boundaries.  This dot is resistant to MNase digestion and is visible both in the MicroC and dHS-C profiles.  Based on the ChIP signature of the corresponding elements in the two TADs downstream of the blue and purple boundaries, this dot represents paired LBC elements.

      Author response image 4.

      Lar metaloop. Panels A & bB: MicroC. Panels C & D: dHS-C

      That being said, the authors' analyses do not distinguish between the formation and the maintenance of domains. It is not clear to this reviewer why a single mechanism should explain the formation of the complex structures observed in static Hi-C heatmaps from a population of cells at a single developmental time point. For example, how can the authors rule out that extrusion initially provides the necessary proximity and possibly the cis preference of contacts required for boundaryboundary pairing whereas the latter may more reflect the structures observed at maintenance?

      (2.2) The MicroC profiles shown in Fig. 2 of our paper were generated from nuclear cycle (NC) 14 embryos.  NC14 is the last nuclear cycle before cellularization (Foe 1989).  After the nuclei exit mitosis, S-phase begins, and because satellite sequences are late replicating in this nuclear cycle, S phase lasts 50 min instead of only 4-6 min during earlier cycles (Shermoen et al. 2010).  So unlike MicroC studies in mammals, our analysis of chromatin architecture in NC14 embryos likely offers the best opportunity to detect any intermediates that are generated during TAD formation.  In particular, we should be able to observe evidence of cohesin linking the sequences from the two extruding strands together (the stripes) as it generates TADs de novo.  However, there are no vertical stripes in the eve TAD as would be expected if cohesin entered at a few specific sites somewhere within the TAD and extruded loops in opposite directions synchronously, nor are their stripes at 45o as would be expected if it started at nhomie or homie (see Figure Supplemental 1).  We also do not detect cohesin-generated stripes in any of the TADs in between eve and the attP site at -142 kb. Note that in some models, cohesin is thought to be continuously extruding loops. After hitting the CTCF roadblocks, cohesin either falls off after a short period and starts again or it breaks through one or more TAD boundaries generating the LDC domains. In this dynamic model, stripes of crosslinked DNA generated by the passing cohesin complex should be observed throughout the cell cycle.  They are not. 

      As for formation versus maintenance, and the possible involvement of cohesin loop extrusion in the former, but not the latter:  This question was indirectly addressed in point #1.2 above.  In this point we described multiple examples of specific boundary:boundary pairing interactions that take place over Mbs, in cis and in trans and even between different chromosomes.  These long-distance interactions don’t preexist;  instead they must be established de novo and then maintained.  This process was actually visualized in the studies of Lim et al. (Lim et al. 2018) on the establishment of trans boundary pairing interactions in NC14 embryos.  There is no conceivable mechanism by which cohesin-based loop extrusion could establish the long or short distance trans interactions that have been documented in many studies on fly boundary elements.  Also as noted above, its seems unlikely that it is necessary for long-range interactions in cis.  

      A more plausible scenario is that cohesin entrapment helps to stabilize these long-distance interactions after they are formed.  If this were true, then one could argue that cohesin might also function to maintain TADs after boundaries have physically paired with their neighbors in cis.  However, the Rad21 depletion experiments of Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023) would rule out an essential role for cohesin in maintaining TADs after boundary:boundary pairing.  In short, while we cannot formally rule out that loop extrusion might help bring sequences closer together to increase their chance of pairing, neither the specificity of that pairing, nor its orientation can be explained by loop extrusion.  Furthermore, since pairing in trans cannot be facilitated by loop extrusion, invoking it as potentially important for boundary-boundary pairing in cis can only be described as a potential mechanism in search of a function, without clear evidence in its favor.

      On the other hand, the apparent loss of contacts between TADs within large multi-TAD neighborhoods (Geol et al. 2023) would suggest that there is some sort of decompaction of neighborhoods after Rad21 depletion.  It is possible that this might stress interactions that span multiple TADs as is the case for homie at -142, or for the other examples described in #1.2 above.  This kind of involvement of cohesin might or might not be associated with a loop extrusion mechanism.

      Future work aimed at analyzing micro-C data in cohesin-depleted cells might shed additional light on this.

      (2.3) This experiment has been done by Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023) in mammalian tissue culture cells.  They found that TADs, as well as local TAD neighborhoods, are not disrupted/altered by Rad21 depletion (see Geol at al. 2023 and our response to point #1.1 of reviewer #1).

      Additional mechanisms at play include compartment-level interactions driven by chromatin states. Indeed, in mammalian cells, these interactions often manifest as a "plume" on Hi-C maps similar to what the authors attribute to boundary interactions in this manuscript. How do the chromatin states in the neighboring domains of the eve locus impact the model if at all?

      (2.4) Chromatin states have been implicated in driving compartment level interactions. 

      Compartments as initially described were large, often Mb sized, chromosomal segments that “share” similar chromatin marks/states, and are thought to merge via co-polymer segregation.  They were visualized using large multi-kb bin sizes.  In the studies reported here, we use bin sizes of 200 bp to examine a DNA segment of less than 200 kb which is subdivided into a dozen or so small TADs.  Several of the TADs contain more than one transcription unit, and they are expressed in quite different patterns, and thus might be expected to have different “chromatin states” at different points in development and in different cells in the organism. However, as can be seen by comparing the MicroC patterns in our paper that are shown in Fig. 2 with Fig. 7, Figure Supplemental 5 and Figure Supplemental 6, the TAD organization in NC14 and 12-16 hr embryos is for the most part quite similar.  There is no indication that these small TADs are participating in liquid phase compartmentalization that depends upon shared chromatin/transcriptional states in NC14 and then again in 12-16 hr embryos. 

      In NC14 embryos, eve is expressed in 7 stripes, while it is potentially active throughout much of the embryo.  In fact, the initial pattern in early cycles is quite broad and is then refined during NC14.  In 12-16 hr embryos, the eve gene is silenced by the PcG system in all but a few cells in the embryo.  However, here again the basic structure of the TAD, including the volcano plume, looks quite similar at these different developmental stages.  

      As for the suggestion that the plume topping the eve volcano triangle is generated because the TADs flanking the eve TAD share chromatin states and coalesce via some sort of phase separation:

      This model has been tested directly in Ke et al. (Ke et al. 2024).  In Ke et al., we deleted the nhomie boundary and replaced it with either nhomie in the reverse orientation or homie in the forward orientation.  According to the compartment model, changing the orientation of the boundaries so that the topology of the eve TAD changes from a stem-loop to a circle-loop should have absolutely no effect on the plume topping the eve volcano triangle.  The TADs flanking the eve TAD would still be expected to share the same chromatin states and would still be able to coalesce via phase transition.  However, this is not what is observed.  The plume disappears and is replaced by “clouds” on both sides of the eve TAD. The clouds arise because the eve TAD bumps into the neighboring TADs when the topology is a circle-loop.  

      We would also note that “compartment-level” interactions would not explain the findings presented in Muller at al. 1999, in Table 1 or in Author response image 4.  It is clear that the long distant (Mb) interactions observed for Mcp, gypsy, Fab-7, homie, nhomie and the blue and purple boundaries in Author response image 4 arise by the physical pairing of TAD boundary elements.  This fact is demonstrated directly by the MicroC experiments in Fig. 7 and Fig Supplemental 4 and 5, and by the MicroC and dHS-C experiments in Author response image 4.  There is no evidence for any type of “compartment/phase separation” driving these specific boundary pairing interactions.

      In fact, given the involvement of TAD boundaries in meta-loop formation, one might begin to wonder whether some of the “compartment level interactions” are generated by the specific pairing of TAD boundary elements rather than by “shared chromatin” states.  For example, the head-tohead pairing of the blue and purple boundaries generates a Lar meta-loop that has a circle-loop topology.  As a consequence, sequences upstream of the blue and purple boundary come into contact, generating the small dark rectangular box on the upper left side of the contact map.  Sequences downstream of the blue and purple boundary also come into contact, and this generates the larger rectangular box in the lower right side of the contact map.  A new figure, Fig. 9, shows that the interaction pattern flips (lower left and top right) when the meta-loop has a stem-loop topology.  If these meta-loops are visualized using larger bin sizes, the classic “compartment” patchwork pattern of interactions emerges.  Would the precise patchwork pattern of “compartmental” interactions involving the four distant TADs that are linked in the two meta-loops shown in Fig. 9 persist as is if we deleted one of the TAD boundaries that forms the meta-loop?  Would the precise patchwork pattern persist if we inverted one of the meta-loop boundaries so that we converted the topology of the loop from a circle-loop to a stem-loop or vice versa?  We haven’t used MicroC to compare the compartment organization after deleting or inverting a meta-loop TAD boundary; however, a comparison of the MicroC pattern in WT in Fig. 1C with that for the homie transgenes in Fig. 7 and Figs. Supplemental 5, 6 and 7 indicates a) that novel patterns of TAD:TAD interactions are generated by this homie dependent mini-meta-loop and b) that the patterns of TAD:TAD interactions depend upon loop topology. Were these novel TAD:TAD interactions generated instead by compartment level interactions/shared chromatin states, they should be evident in WT as well (Fig. 1).  They are not.

      How does intrachromosomal homolog pairing impact the models proposed in this manuscript (Abed et al. 2019; Erceg et al., 2019). Several papers recently have shown that somatic homolog pairing is not uniform and shows significant variation across the genome with evidence for both tight pairing regions and loose pairing regions. Might loose pairing interactions have the capacity to alter the cis configuration of the eve locus?

      (2.5) At this point it is not entirely clear how homolog pairing impacts the cis configuration/MicroC contact maps.  We expect that homolog pairing is incomplete in the NC14 embryos we analyzed;  however, since replication of eve and the local neighborhood is likely complete, sister chromosomes should be paired.  So we are likely visualizing the 3D organization of paired TADs.

      In summary, the transgenic experiments are extensive and elegant and fully support the authors' models. However, in my opinion, they do not completely rule out additional models at play, including extrusion-based mechanisms. Indeed, my major issue is the limited conceptual advance in this manuscript. The authors essentially repeat many of their previous work and analyses.

      (2.6) In our view, the current paper makes a number of significant contributions that go well beyond those described in our 2016 publication.  These are summarized below.

      A) While our 2016 paper used transgenes inserted in the -142 kb attP site to study pairing interactions of homie and nhomie, we didn’t either consider or discuss how our findings might bear on the loop extrusion model.  However, since the loop extrusion model is currently accepted as established fact by many labs working on chromosome structure, it is critically important to devise experimental approaches which test the predictions of this particular model.  One approach would be to deplete cohesin components; however, as discussed in #1.1, our experimental system is not ideal for this type of approach.  On the other hand, there are other ways to test the extrusion model.  Given the mechanism proposed for TAD formation—extruding a loop until cohesin bumps into CTCF/boundary road blocks—it follows that only two types of loop topologies are possible: stemloop and unanchored loop.  The loop extrusion model, as currently conceived, can’t account for the two cases in this study in which the reporter on the wrong side of the homie boundary from the eve locus is activated by the eve enhancers.  In contrast, our findings are completely consistent with orientation-specific boundary:boundary pairing.

      B) In the loop extrusion model, cohesin embraces both of the extruded chromatin fibers, transiently bringing them into close proximity.  As far as we know, there have been no (high resolution) experiments that have actually detected these extruding cohesin complexes during TAD formation.  In order to have a chance of observing the expected signatures of extruding cohesin complexes, one would need a system in which TADs are being formed.  As described in the text, this is why we used MicroC to analyze TADs in NC14 embryos.  We do not detect the signature stripes that would be predicted (see Figure Supp 2) by the current version of the loop extrusion model.

      C) Reporter expression in the different -142 kb transgenes provides only an indirect test of the loop extrusion and boundary:boundary pairing models for TAD formation.  The reporter expression results need to be confirmed by directly analyzing the pattern of physical interactions in each instance.  While we were able to detect contacts between the transgenes and eve in our 2016 paper, the 3C experiments provided no information beyond that.  By contrast, the MicroC experiments in the current paper give high resolution maps of the physical contacts between the transgene and the eve TAD.  The physical contacts track completely with reporter activity.  Moreover, just as is the case for reporter activity, the observed physical interactions are inconsistent with the loop extrusion model.

      D) Genetic studies in Muller et al. (Muller et al. 1999) and imaging in Vazquez et al. (Vazquez et al. 2006) suggested that more than two boundaries can participate in pairing interactions.  Consistent with these earlier observations, viewpoint analysis indicates the transgene homie interacts with both eve boundaries.  While this could be explained by transgene homie alternating between nhomie and homie in the eve locus, this would require the remodeling of the eve TAD each time the pairing interaction switched between the three boundary elements.  Moreover, two out of the three possible pairing combinations would disrupt the eve TAD, generating an unanchored loop (c.f., the lambda DNA TAD in Ke et al., (Ke et al. 2024)).  However, the MicroC profile of the eve TAD is unaffected by transgenes carrying the homie boundary.  This would suggest that like Mcp, the pairing interactions of homie and nhomie might not be exclusively pairwise.  In this context is interesting to compare the contact profiles of the lar meta-loop shown in Author response image 4 with the different 142 kb homie inserts.  Unlike the homie element at -142 kb, there is clearly only a single point of contact between the blue and purple boundaries.

      E) Chen et al. (Chen et al. 2018) used live imaging to link physical interactions between a homie containing transgene inserted at -142 kb and the eve locus to reporter activation by the eve enhancers.  They found that the reporter was activated by the eve enhancers only when it was in “close proximity” to the eve gene.  “Close proximity” in this case was 331 nM.  This distance is equivalent to ~1.1 kb of linear duplex B form DNA, or ~30 nucleosome core particles lined up in a row.  It would not be possible to ligate two DNAs wrapped around nucleosome core particles that are located 330 nM apart in a fixed matrix.  Since our MicroC experiments were done on embryos in which the gene is silent in the vast majority of cells, it is possible that the homie transgene only comes into close enough proximity for transgene nucleosome: eve nucleosome ligation events when the eve gene is off.  Alternatively, and clearly more likely, distance measurements using imaging procedures that require dozens of fluorescent probes may artificially inflate the distance between sequences that are actually close enough for enzymatic ligation.

      F) The findings reported in Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023) indicate that mammalian TADs don’t require cohesin activity; however, the authors do not provide an alternative mechanism for TAD formation/stability.  Here we have suggested a plausible mechanism.

      The authors make no attempt to dissect the mechanism of this process by modifying extrusion components directly.

      (2.7) See point #1.1

      Some discussion of Rollins et al. on the discovery of Nipped-B and its role in enhancer-promoter communication should also be made to reconcile their conclusions in the proposed absence of extrusion events.

      (2.8) The reason why reducing nipped-B activity enhances the phenotypic effects of gypsy-induced mutations is not known at this point; however, the findings reported in Rollins et al. (Rollins et al. 1999) would appear to argue against an extrusion mechanism for TAD formation.

      Given what we know about enhancer blocking and TADs, there are two plausible mechanisms for how the Su(Hw) element in the gypsy transposon blocks enhancer-promoter interactions in the gypsy-induced mutants studied by Rollins et al.  First, the Su(Hw) element could generate two new TADs through pairing interactions with boundaries in the immediate neighborhood.  This would place the enhancers in one TAD and the target gene in another TAD.  Alternatively, the studies of Sigrist and Pirrotta (Sigrist and Pirrotta 1997) as well as several publications from Victor Corces’ lab raise the possibility that the Su(Hw) element in gypsy-induced mutations is pairing with gypsy transposons inserted elsewhere in the genome.  This would also isolate enhancers from their target genes.  In either case, the loss of nipped-B activity increases the mutagenic effects of Su(Hw) element presumably by strengthening its boundary function.  If this is due to a failure to load cohesin on to chromatin, this would suggest that cohesin normally functions to weaken the boundary activity of the Su(Hw) element, i.e., disrupting the ability of Su(Hw) elements to interact with either other boundaries in the neighborhood or with themselves.  Were this a general activity of cohesin (to weaken boundary activity), one would imagine that cohesin normally functions to disrupt TADs rather than generate/stabilize TADs.

      An alternative model is that Nipped-B (and thus cohesion) functions to stabilize enhancerpromoter interactions within TADs.  In this case, loss of Nipped-B would result in a destabilization of the weak enhancer:promoter interactions that can still be formed when gypsy is located between the enhancer and promoter.  In this model the loss of these weak interactions in nipped-b mutants would appear to increase the “blocking” activity of the gypsy element.  However, this alternative model would also provide no support for the notion that Nipped-B and cohesin function to promote TAD formation.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Bing et al. attempt to address fundamental mechanisms of TAD formation in Drosophila by analyzing gene expression and 3D conformation within the vicinity of the eve TAD after insertion of a transgene harboring a Homie insulator sequence 142 kb away in different orientations. These transgenes along with spatial gene expression analysis were previously published in Fujioka et al. 2016, and the underlying interpretations regarding resulting DNA configuration in this genomic region were also previously published. This manuscript repeats the expression analysis using smFISH probes in order to achieve more quantitative analysis, but the main results are the same as previously published. The only new data are the Micro-C and an additional modeling/analysis of what they refer to as the 'Z3' orientation of the transgenes. The rest of the manuscript merely synthesizes further interpretation with the goal of addressing whether loop extrusion may be occurring or if boundary:boundary pairing without loop extrusion is responsible for TAD formation. The authors conclude that their results are more consistent with boundary:boundary pairing and not loop extrusion; however, most of this imaging data seems to support both loop extrusion and the boundary:boundary models. This manuscript lacks support, especially new data, for its conclusions.

      (3.1) The new results/contributions of our paper are described in #2.6 above. 

      Although there are (two) homie transgene configurations that give expression patterns that would be consistent with the loop extrusion model, that is not quite the same as strong evidence supporting loop extrusion.  On the contrary, key aspects of the expression data are entirely inconsistent with loop extrusion, and they thus rule out the possibility that loop extrusion is sufficient to explain the results.  Moreover, the conclusions drawn from the expression patterns of the four transgenes are back up by the MicroC contact profiles—profiles that are also not consistent with the loop extrusion model.  Further, as documented above, loop extrusion is not only unable to explain the findings reported in this manuscript, but also the results from a large collection of published studies on fly boundaries.  Since all of these boundaries function in TAD formation, there is little reason to think that loop extrusion makes a significant contribution at the TAD level in flies.   Given the results reported by Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023), one might also have doubts about the role of loop extrusion in the formation/maintenance of mammalian TADs. 

      To further document these points, we’ve included a new figure (Fig. 9) that shows two meta-loops.  Like the loops seen for homie-containing transgenes inserted at -142 kb, meta-loops are formed by the pairing of distant fly boundaries.  As only two boundaries are involved, the resulting loop topologies are simpler than those generated when transgene homie pairs with nhomie and homie in the eve locus.  The meta-loop in panel B is a stem-loop.  While a loop with this topology could be formed by loop extrusion, cohesion would have to break through dozens of intervening TAD boundaries and then somehow know to come to a halt at the blue boundary on the left and the purple boundary on the right.  However, none of the mechanistic studies on either cohesin or the mammalian CTCF roadblocks have uncovered activities of either the cohesin complex or the CTCF roadblocks that could explain how cohesin would be able to extrude hundreds of kb and ignore dozens of intervening roadblocks, and then stop only when it encounters the two boundaries that form the beat-IV meta-loop.  The meta-loop in panel A is even more problematic in that it is a circle-loop--a topology that can’t be generated by cohesin extruding a loop until comes into contact with CTCF roadblocks on the extruded strands.

      Furthermore, there are many parts of the manuscript that are difficult to follow. There are some minor errors in the labelling of the figures that if fixed would help elevate understanding. Lastly, there are several major points that if elaborated on, would potentially be helpful for the clarity of the manuscript.

      Major Points:

      (1) The authors suggest and attempt to visualize in the supplemental figures, that loop extrusion mechanisms would appear during crosslinking and show as vertical stripes in the micro-C data. In order to see stripes, a majority of the nuclei would need to undergo loop extrusion at the same rate, starting from exactly the same spots, and the loops would also have to be released and restarted at the same rate. If these patterns truly result from loop extrusion, the authors should provide experimental evidence from another organism undergoing loop extrusion.

      (3.2) We don’t know of any reports that actually document cohesion extrusion events that are forming TADs (TADs as defined in our paper, in the RCMC experiments of Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023), in response #1.1, or in the high-resolution images from the MicroC data of Krietenstein et al (Krietenstein et al. 2020) and Hseih et al. (Hsieh et al. 2020). However, an extruding cohesin complex would be expected to generate stripes because it transiently brings together the two chromatin strands as illustrated by the broken zipper in Figure Supplemental 2 of our paper.  While stripes generated by cohesin forming a TAD have not to our knowledge ever been observed, Fig. 4 in Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023)) shows 45o stripes outlining TADs and connecting neighboring TADs.  These stripes are visible with or without Rad21.

      In some versions of the loop extrusion model, cohesin extrudes a loop until it comes to a halt at both boundaries, where it then remains holding the loop together.  In this model, the extrusion event would occur only once per cell cycle.  This is reason we selected NC14 embryos as this point in development should provide by far the best opportunity to visualize cohesin-dependent TAD formation.  However, the expected stripes generated by cohesin embrace of both strands of the extruding loop were not evident.  Other newer versions of the loop extrusion model are much more dynamic—cohesin extrudes the loop, coming to a halt at the two boundaries, but either doesn’t remain stably bound or breaks through one or both boundaries. In the former case, the TAD needs to be reestablished by another extrusion event, while in the latter case LDC domains are generated.  In this dynamic model, we should also be able to observe vertical and 45o stripes (or stripes leaning to one side or another of the loading site if the extrusion rates aren’t equal on both fibers) in NC14 embryos corresponding to the formation of TADs and LDC domains.  However, we don’t.

      (2) On lines 311-314, the authors discuss that stem-loops generated by cohesin extrusion would possibly be expected to have more next-next-door neighbor contacts than next-door neighbor contacts and site their models in Figure 1. Based on the boundary:boundary pairing models in the same figure would the stem-loops created by head-to-tail pairing also have the same phenotype? Making possible enrichment of next-next-door neighbor contacts possible in both situations? The concepts in the text are not clear, and the diagrams are not well-labeled relative to the two models.

      (3.3) Yes, we expect that stem-loops formed by cohesin extrusion or head-to-tail pairing would behave in a similar manner.  They could be stem-loops separated by unanchored loops as shown in Fig. 1B and E.  Alternatively, adjacent loops could be anchored to each other (by cohesin/CTCF road blocks or by pairing interactions) as indicated in Fig. 1C and F.  In stem-loops generated either by cohesin extrusion or by head-to-tail pairing, next-next door neighbors should interact with each other, generating a plume above the volcano triangle.  In the case of circle-loops, the volcano triangle should be flanked by clouds that are generated when the TAD bumps into both next-door neighbors.  In the accompanying paper, we test this idea by deleting the nhomie boundary and then a) inserting nhomie back in the reverse orientation, or b) by inserting homie in the forward orientation.  The MicroC patterns fit with the predictions that were made in this paper.

      (3) The authors appear to cite Chen et al., 2018 as a reference for the location of these transgenes being 700nM away in a majority of the nuclei. However, the exact transgenes in this manuscript do not appear to have been measured for distance. The authors could do this experiment and include expression measurements.

      (3.4) The transgenes used in Chen et al. are modified versions of a transgene used in Fujioka et al. (2016) inserted into the same attP site.  When we visualize reporter transcription in NC14 embryos driven by the eve enhancers using smFISH, HCR-FISH or DIG, only a subset of the nuclei at this stage are active.  The number of active nuclei we detect is similar to that observed in the live imaging experiments of Chen et al.  The reason we cited Chen et al. (Chen et al. 2018) was that they found that proximity was a critical factor in determining whether the reporter was activated or not in a given nucleus.  The actual distance they measured wasn’t important.  Moreover, as we discussed in response #2.6 above, there are good reasons to think that the “precise” distances measured in live imaging experiments like those used in Chen et al. are incorrect.  However, their statements are certainly correct if one considers that a distance of ~700 nM or so is “more distant” relative to a distance of ~300 nM or so, which is “closer.”

      (4) The authors discuss the possible importance of CTCF orientation in forming the roadblock to cohesin extrusion and discuss that Homie orientation in the transgene may impact Homie function as an effective roadblock. However, the Homie region inserted in the transgene does not contain the CTCF motif. Can the authors elaborate on why they feel the orientation of Homie is important in its ability to function as a roadblock if the CTCF motif is not present? Trans-acting factors responsible for Homie function have not been identified and this point is not discussed in the manuscript.

      We discussed the “importance” of CTCF orientation in forming roadblocks because one popular version of the cohesin loop extrusion/CTCF roadblock model postulates that CTCF must be oriented so that the N-terminus of the protein is facing towards the oncoming cohesin complex, otherwise it won’t be able to halt extrusion on that strand.  When homie in the transgene is pointing towards the eve locus, the reporter on the other side (farther from eve) is activated by the eve enhancers.  One possible way to explain this finding (if one believes the loop extrusion model) is that when homie is inverted, it can’t stop the oncoming cohesin complex, and it runs past the homie boundary until it comes to a stop at a properly oriented boundary farther away.  In this case, the newly formed loop would extend from the boundary that stopped cohesin to the homie boundary in the eve locus, and would include not only the distal reporter, but also the proximal reporter.  If both reporters are in the same loop with the eve enhancers (which they would have to be given the mechanism of TAD formation by loop extrusion), both reporters should be activated.  They are not.

      For the boundary pairing model, the reporter that will be activated will depend upon the orientation of the pairing interaction—which can be either head-to-head or head-to-tail (or both: see discussion of LBC elements in #2.1).  For an easy visualization of how the orientation of pairing interactions is connected to the patterns of interactions between sequences neighboring the boundary, please look at Fig. 9.  This figure shows two different meta-loops.  In panel A, head-tohead pairing of the blue and purple boundaries brings together, on the one hand, sequences upstream of the blue and purple boundary, and on the other hand, sequences downstream of the blue and purple boundaries.  In the circle loop configuration, the resulting rectangular boxes of enhanced contact are located in the upper left and lower right of the contact map.  In panel B, the head-to-tail pairing of the blue and purple boundary changes how sequences upstream and downstream of the blue and purple boundaries interact with each other.  Sequences upstream of the blue boundary interact with sequences downstream of the purple boundary, and this gives the rectangular box of enhanced interactions on the top right.  Sequences downstream of the blue boundary interact with sequences upstream of the purple boundary, and this gives the rectangular box of enhanced contact on the lower left.

      CTCF: Our analysis of the homie boundary suggests that CTCF contributes little to its activity.  It has an Su(Hw) recognition sequence and a CP190 “associated” sequence.  Mutations in both compromise boundary activity (blocking and -142 kb pairing).  Gel shift experiments and ChIP data indicate there are half a dozen or more additional proteins that associate with the 300 bp homie fragment used in our experiments.

      Orientation of CTCF or other protein binding sites:  The available evidence suggests that orientation of the individual binding sites is not important (Kyrchanova et al. 2016; Lim et al. 2018)).  Instead, it is likely that the order of binding sites affects function.

      (5) The imaging results seem to be consistent with both boundary:boundary interaction and loop extrusion stem looping.

      It is not clear whether the reviewer is referring to the different patterns of reporter expression— which clearly don’t fit with the loop extrusion model in the key cases that distinguish the two models—or the live imaging experiments in Chen et al. (Chen et al. 2018).

      (6) The authors suggest that the eveMa TAD could only be formed by extrusion after the breakthrough of Nhomie and several other roadblocks. Additionally, the overall long-range interactions with Nhomie appear to be less than the interactions with endogenous Homie (Figures 7, 8, and supplemental 5). Is it possible that in some cases boundary:boundary pairing is occurring between only the transgenic Homie and endogenous Homie and not including Nhomie?

      Yes, it is possible.  On the other hand, the data that are currently available supports the idea that transgene homie usually interacts with endogenous homie and nhomie at the same time.  This is discussed in #2.6D above.  The viewpoints indicate that crosslinking occurs more frequently to homie than to nhomie.  This could indicate that when there are only pairwise interactions, these tend to be between homie and homie.  Alternatively, this could also be explained by a difference in relative crosslinking efficiency.

      (7) In Figure 4E, the GFP hebe expression shown in the LhomieG Z5 transgenic embryo does not appear in the same locations as the LlambdaG Z5 control. Is this actually hebe expression or just a background signal?

      The late-stage embryos shown in E are oriented differently.  For GlambdaL, the embryo is oriented so that hebe-like reporter expression on the ventral midline is readily evident.  However, this orientation is not suitable for visualizing eve enhancer-dependent expression of the reporters in muscle progenitor cells.  For this reason, the 12-16 hr GeimohL embryo in E is turned so that the ventral midline isn’t readily visible in most of the embryo.  As is the case in NC14 embyros, the eve enhancers drive lacZ but not gfp expression in the muscle progenitor cells.

      (8) Figure 6- The LhomieG Z3 (LeimohG) late-stage embryo appears to be showing the ventral orientation of the embryo rather than the lateral side of the embryo as was shown in the previous figure. Is this for a reason? Additionally, there are no statistics shown for the Z3 transgenic images.

      Were these images analyzed in the same way as the Z5 line images?

      The LeimohG embryo was turned so that the hebe enhancer-dependent expression of lacZ is visible.  While the eve enhancer-dependent expression of lacZ in the muscle progenitor cells isn’t visible with this orientation, eve enhancer-dependent expression in the anal plate is.

      (9) Do the Micro-C data align with the developmental time points used in the smFISH probe assays?

      The MicroC data aligns with the smFISH images of older embryos: 12-14 hour embryos or stages 14-16.  

      Recommendations for the authors:   

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This was a difficult paper to review. It took me several hours to understand the terminology and back and forth between different figures to put it together. It might be useful to put the loop models next to the MicroC results and have a cartoon way of incorporating which enhancers are turning on which reporters.

      I also found the supercoiled TAD models in Figure 1 not useful. These plectoneme-type of structures likely do not exist, based on the single-cell chromosome tracing studies, and the HiC structures not showing perpendicular to diagonal interactions between the arms of the plectonemes.

      We wanted to represent the TAD as a coiled 30nM fiber, as they are not likely to resemble the large loops like those shown in Fig. 1 A, D, and G.

      There are no stripes emerging from homies, which is consistent with the pairing model, but there seem to be stripes from the eve promoter. I think these structures may be a result of both the underlying loop extruders + pairing elements.

      There are internal structures in the eve TAD that link the upstream region of the eve promoter to the eve PRE and sequences in nhomie.  All three of these sequences are bound by LBC.  Each of the regulatory domains in BX-C also have LBC elements and, as shown in Author response image 1, you can see stripes connecting some of these LBC elements to each other.  Since the stripes that Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023) observed in their RCMC analysis of Ppm1g didn’t require cohesin, how these stripes are generated (active: e.g, a chromatin remodeler or passive: e.g., the LBC complex has non-specific DNA binding activity that can be readily crosslinked as the chromatin fiber slides past) isn’t clear.

      The authors say there are no TADs that have "volcano plumes" but the leftmost TAD TA appears to have one. What are the criteria for calling the plumes? I am also not clear why there is a stripe off the eve volcano. It looks like homie is making a "stripe" loop extrusion type of interaction with the next TAD up. Is this maybe cohesin sliding off the left boundary?

      The reviewer is correct, the left-most TAD TA appears to have a plume.  We mentioned TA seems to have a plume in the original text, but it was inadvertently edited out.

      Two different types of TADßàTAD interactions are observed.  In the case of eve, the TADs to either side of eve interact more frequently with each other than they do with eve.  This generates a “plume” above the eve volcano triangle.  The TADs that comprise the Abd-B regulatory domains (see Author response image 1) are surrounded by clouds of diminishing intensity.  Clouds at the first level represent interactions with both next-door neighbors; clouds at the second level represent interactions with both next-next-door neighbors; clouds at the third level represent interactions with next-next-next door neighbors.  The Abd-B TADs are close to the same size, so that interactions with neighbors are relatively simple.  However, this is not always the case.  When there are smaller TADs near larger TADs the pattern of interaction can be quite complicated.  An example is indicated by the red bar in Author response image 2

      The authors state "In the loop-extrusion model, a cohesin complex initiating loop extrusion in the eve TAD must break through the nhomie roadblock at the upstream end of the eve TAD. It must then make its way past the boundaries that separate eve from the attP site in the hebe gene, and come to a halt at the homie boundary associated with the lacZ reporter." Having multiple loops formed by cohesin would also bring in the 142kb apart reporter and homie. Does cohesin make 140 kb long loops in flies?

      A mechanism in which cohesin brings the reporter close to the eve TAD by generating many smaller loops (which would be the intervening TADs) was discussed in #1.2.

      Figure 5 title mistakes the transgene used?

      Fixed.

      In figure 6, the orientation of the embryos does not look the same for the late-stage panels. So it was difficult to tell if the eve enhancer was turning the reporter on.

      Here we were focusing mainly on the AP enhancer activation of the reporter, as this is most easily visualized.  It should be clear from the images that the appropriate reporter is activated by the AP enhancer for each of the transgene inserts.

      It is not clear to me why the GFP makes upstream interactions (from the 4C viewpoint) in GhomileLZ5 but not in LhomieGZ5? Corresponding interactions for Fig Supp 5 & 6 are not the same. That is, LacZ in the same place and with the same homie orientation does not show a similar upstream enrichment as the GFP reporter does.

      We are uncertain as to whether we understand this question/comment.  In GhomieLZ5 (now GhomieL, the lacZ reporter is on the eve side of the homie boundary while gfp is on the hebe enhancer side of the homie boundary.  Since homie is pointing away from gfp, pairing interactions with homie and nhomie in the eve locus bring the eve enhancers in close proximity with the gfp reporter.  This is what is seen in Fig. 7 panel D—lower trace.  In LhomieGZ5 (now GeimohL) the lacZ reporter is again on the eve side of the homie boundary while gfp is on the hebe enhancer side of the homie boundary.  However, in this case homie is inverted so that it is points away from lacZ (towards gfp).  In this orientation, pairing brings the lacZ reporter into contact with the eve enhancers.  This is what is seen in the upper trace in Fig. 7 panel D.

      The orientation of the transgene is switch in Fig. Supp 5 and 6.  For these “Z3) transgenes (now called LeimohG and LhomieG the gfp reporter is on the eve side of homie while the lacZ reporter is on the hebe enhancer side of homie.  The interactions between the reporters and eve are determined by the orientation of homie in the transgene.  When homie is pointing away from gfp (as in LeimohG), gfp is activated and that is reflected in the trace in Supp Fig. 5. When homie is pointing away from lacZ, lacZ is activated and this is reflected (though not as cleanly as in other cases) in the trace in Supp Fig. 6.  

      I did not see a data availability statement. Is the data publicly available? The authors also should consider providing the sequences of the insertions, or provide the edited genomes, in case other researchers would like to analyze the data.

      Data have been deposited.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor Points:

      (1) There is an inconsistency in the way that some of the citations are formatted. Some citations have 'et al' italicized while others do not. It seems to be the same ones throughout the manuscript. Some examples: Chetverina et al 2017, Chetverina et al 2014, Cavalheiro et al 2021, Kyrchanova et al 2008a, Muravyova et al 2001.

      Fixed

      (2) Pita is listed twice in line 48.

      Fixed

      (3) Line 49, mod(mdg4)67.2 is written just as mod(mdg4). The isoform should be indicated.

      This refers to all Mod isoforms.

      (4) Homie and Nhomie are italicized throughout the manuscript and do not need to be.

      This is the convention used previously.  

      (5) The supplemental figure captions 1 and 2 in the main document are ordered differently than in the supplemental figures file. This caused it to look like the figures are being incorrectly cited in lines 212-214 and 231-232.

      Fixed

      (6) Is the correct figure being cited in line 388-389? The line cites Figure 6E when mentioning LlambdaG Z5; however, LlambdaG Z5 is not shown in Figure 6.

      Fixed

      (7) Section heading 'LhomieG Z5 and GhomieL Z5' could be renamed for clarity. GhomieL Z5 results are not mentioned until the next section, named 'GhomieL Z5'.

      Fixed

      (8) Can the authors provide better labeling for control hebe expression? This would help to determine what is hebe expression and what is background noise in some of the embryos in Figures 4-6.

      Author response image 5 shows expression of the lacZ reporter in GeimohL and GlambdaL.  For the GlambdaL transgene, the hebe enhancers drive lacZ expression in 1216 hr embryos.  Note that lacZ expression is restricted to a small set of quite distinctive cells along the ventral midline.  lacZ is also expressed on the ventral side of the GeimohL embryo (top panel).  However, their locations are quite different from those of the lacZ positive cells in the GlambdaL transgene embryo.  These cells are displaced from the midline, and are arranged as pairs of cells in each hemisegment, locations that correspond to eve-expressing cells in the ventral nerve cord.  The eve enhancers also drive lacZ expression elsewhere in the GeimohL embryo, including the anal plate and dorsal muscle progenitor cells (seen most clearly in the lower left panel).

      Author response image 5.

      lacZ expression in Giemohl and Glambdal embryos

      (9) The Figure 5 title is labeled with the wrong transgene.

      Fixed

      (10) Heat map scales are missing for Figures 7, supplemental 5, and supplemental 6.

      Fixed

      (11) Did the authors check if there was a significant difference in the expression of GFP and lacZ from lambda control lines to the Homie transgenic lines?

      Yes.  Statistical analysis added in Table Supplemental #1

      (12) The Figure 7 title references that these are Z3 orientations, however, it is Z5 orientations being shown.

      Fixed

      (13) The virtual 4C data should include an axis along the bottom of the graphs for better clarity. An axis is missing in all 4C figures.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This is a useful study examining the determinants and mechanisms of LRMP inhibi:on of cAMP regula:on of HCN4 channel ga:ng. The evidence provided to support the main conclusions is unfortunately incomplete, with discrepancies in the work that reduce the strength of mechanis:c insights.

      Thank you for the reviews of our manuscript. We have made a number of changes to clarify our hypotheses in the manuscript and addressed all of the poten:al discrepancies by revising some of our interpreta:on. In addi:on, we have provided addi:onal experimental evidence to support our conclusions. Please see below for a detailed response to each reviewer comment.

      Public Reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors use truncations, fragments, and HCN2/4 chimeras to narrow down the interaction and regulatory domains for LRMP inhibition of cAMP-dependent shifts in the voltage dependence of activation of HCN4 channels. They identify the N-terminal domain of HCN4 as a binding domain for LRMP, and highlight two residues in the C-linker as critical for the regulatory effect. Notably, whereas HCN2 is normally insensitive to LRMP, putting the N-terminus and 5 additional C-linker and S5 residues from HCN4 into HCN2 confers LRMP regulation in HCN2.

      Strengths:

      The work is excellent, the paper well written, and the data convincingly support the conclusions which shed new light on the interaction and mechanism for LRMP regulation of HCN4, as well as identifying critical differences that explain why LRMP does not regulate other isoforms such as HCN2.

      Thank you.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      HCN-4 isoform is found primarily in the sino-atrial node where it contributes to the pacemaking activity. LRMP is an accessory subunit that prevents cAMP-dependent potentiation of HCN4 isoform but does not have any effect on HCN2 regulation. In this study, the authors combine electrophysiology, FRET with standard molecular genetics to determine the molecular mechanism of LRMP action on HCN4 activity. Their study shows that parts of N- and C-termini along with specific residues in C-linker and S5 of HCN4 are crucial for mediating LRMP action on these channels. Furthermore, they show that the initial 224 residues of LRMP are sufficient to account for most of the activity. In my view, the highlight of this study is Fig. 7 which recapitulates LRMP modulation on HCN2-HCN4 chimera. Overall, this study is an excellent example of using time-tested methods to probe the molecular mechanisms of regulation of channel function by an accessory subunit.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Figure 5A- I am a bit confused with this figure and perhaps it needs better labeling. When it states Citrine, does it mean just free Citrine, and "LRMP 1-230" means LRMP fused to Citrine which is an "LF" construct? Why not simply call it "LF"? If there is no Citrine fused to "LRMP 1-230", this figure would not make sense to me.

      We have clarified the labelling of this figure and specifically defined all abbreviations used for HCN4 and LRMP fragments in the results section on page 14.

      (2) Related to the above point- Why is there very little FRET between NF and LRMP 1-230? The FRET distance range is 2-8 nm which is quite large. To observe baseline FRET for this construct more explanation is required. Even if one assumes that about 100 amino are completely disordered (not extended) polymers, I think you would still expect significant FRET.

      FRET is extremely sensitive to distance (to the 6th power of distance). The difference in contour length (maximum length of a peptide if extended) between our ~260aa fragment and our ~130 aa fragments is on the order of 450Å (45nm), So, even if not extended it is not hard to imagine that the larger fragments show a weaker FRET signal. In fact, we do see a slightly larger FRET than we do in control (not significant) which is consistent with the idea that the larger fragments just do not result in a large FRET.

      Moreover, this hybridization assay is sensitive to a number of other factors including the affinity between the two fragments, the expression of each fragment, and the orientation of the fluorophores. Any of these factors could also result in reduced FRET.

      We have added a section on the limitations of the FRET 2-hybrid assay in the discussion section on page 20. Our goal with the FRET assay was to provide complimentary evidence that shows some of the regions that are important for direct association and we have edited to the text to make sure we are not over-interpreting our results.

      (3) Unless I missed this, have all the Cerulean and Citrine constructs been tested for functional activity?

      All citrine-tagged LRMP constructs (or close derivatives) were tested functionally by coexpression with HCN (See Table 1 and pages 10-11). Cerulean-tagged HCN4 fragments are of course intrinsically not-functional as they do not include the ion conducting pore.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Using patch clamp electrophysiology and Förster resonance energy transfer (FRET), Peters and co-workers showed that the disordered N-terminus of both LRMP and HCN4 are necessary for LRMP to interact with HCN4 and inhibit the cAMP-dependent potentiation of channel opening. Strikingly, they identified two HCN4-specific residues, P545 and T547 in the C-linker of HCN4, that are close in proximity to the cAMP transduction centre (elbow Clinker, S4/S5-linker, HCND) and account for the LRMP effect.

      Strengths:

      Based on these data, the authors propose a mechanism in which LRMP specifically binds to HCN4 via its isotype-specific N-terminal sequence and thus prevents the cAMP transduction mechanism by acting at the interface between the elbow Clinker, the S4S5-linker, the HCND.

      Weaknesses:

      Although the work is interesting, there are some discrepancies between data that need to be addressed.

      (1) I suggest inserting in Table 1 and in the text, the Δ shift values (+cAMP; + LRMP; +cAMP/LRMP). This will help readers.

      Thank you, Δ shift values have been added to Tables 1 and 2 as suggested.

      (2) Figure 1 is not clear, the distribution of values is anomalously high. For instance, in 1B the distribution of values of V1/2 in the presence of cAMP goes from - 85 to -115. I agree that in the absence of cAMP, HCN4 in HEK293 cells shows some variability in V1/2 values, that nonetheless cannot be so wide (here the variability spans sometimes even 30 mV) and usually disappears with cAMP (here not).

      With a large N, this is an expected distribution. In 5 previous reports from 4 different groups of HCN4 with cAMP in HEK 293 (Fenske et al., 2020; Liao et al., 2012; Peters et al., 2020; Saponaro et al., 2021; Schweizer et al., 2010), the average expected range of the data is 26.6 mV and 39.9 mV for 95% (mean ± 2SD) and 99% (mean ± 3SD) of the data, respectively. As the reviewer mentions the expected range from these papers is slightly larger in the absence of cAMP. The average SD of HCN4 (with/without cAMP) in papers are 9.9 mV (Schweizer et al., 2010), 4.4 mV (Saponaro et al., 2021), 7.6 mV (Fenske et al., 2020), 10.0 mV (Liao et al., 2012), and 5.9 mV (Peters et al., 2020). Our SD in this paper is roughly in the middle at 7.6 mV. This is likely because we used an inclusive approach to data so as not to bias our results (see the statistics section of the revised manuscript on page 9). We have removed 2 data points that meet the statistical classification as outliers, no measures of statistical significance were altered by this.

      This problem is spread throughout the manuscript, and the measured mean effects are indeed always at the limit of statistical significance. Why so? Is this a problem with the analysis, or with the recordings?

      The exact P-values are NOT typically at the limit of statistical significance, about 2/3rds would meet the stringent P < 0.0001 cut-off. We have clarified in the statistics section (page 10) that any comparison meeting our significance threshold (P < 0.05) or a stricter criterion is treated equally in the figure labelling. Exact P-values are provided in Tables 1-3.

      There are several other problems with Figure 1 and in all figures of the manuscript: the Y scale is very narrow while the mean values are marked with large square boxes. Moreover, the exemplary activation curve of Figure 1A is not representative of the mean values reported in Figure 1B, and the values of 1B are different from those reported in Table 1.

      Y-axis values for mean plots were picked such that all data points are included and are consistent across all figures. They have been expanded slightly (-75 to -145 mV for all HCN4 channels and -65 to -135 mV for all HCN2 channels). The size of the mean value marker has been reduced slightly. Exact midpoints for all data are also found in Tables 1-3.

      The GV curves in Figure 1B (previously Fig. 1A) are averages with the ±SEM error bars smaller than the symbols in many cases owing to relatively high n’s for these datasets. These curves match the midpoints in panel 1C (previously 1B). Eg. the midpoint of the average curve for HCN4 control in panel A is -117.9 mV, the same as the -117.8 mV average for the individual fits in panel B.

      We made an error in the text based on a previous manuscript version about the ordering of the tables that has now been fixed so these values should now be aligned.

      On this ground, it is difficult to judge the conclusions and it would also greatly help if exemplary current traces would be also shown.

      Exemplary current traces have been added to all figures in the revised manuscript.

      (3) "....HCN4-P545A/T547F was insensitive to LRMP (Figs. 6B and 6C; Table 1), indicating that the unique HCN4 C-linker is necessary for regulation by LRMP. Thus, LRMP appears to regulate HCN4 by altering the interactions between the C-linker, S4-S5 linker, and Nterminus at the cAMP transduction centre."

      Although this is an interesting theory, there are no data supporting it. Indeed, P545 and T547 at the tip of the C-linker elbow (fig 6A) are crucial for LRMP effect, but these two residues are not involved in the cAMP transduction centre (interface between HCND, S4S5 linker, and Clinker elbow), at least for the data accumulated till now in the literature. Indeed, the hypothesis that LRMP somehow inhibits the cAMP transduction mechanism of HCN4 given the fact that the two necessary residues P545 and T547 are close to the cAMP transduction centre, remains to be proven.

      Moreover, I suggest analysing the putative role of P545 and T547 in light of the available HCN4 structures. In particular, T547 (elbow) points towards the underlying shoulder of the adjacent subunit and, therefore, is in a key position for the cAMP transduction mechanism. The presence of bulky hydrophobic residues (very different nature compared to T) in the equivalent position of HCN1 and HCN2 also favours this hypothesis. In this light, it will be also interesting to see whether a single T547F mutation is sufficient to prevent the LRMP effect.

      We agree that testing this hypothesis would be very interesting. However, it is challenging. Any mutation we make that is involved in cAMP transduction makes measuring the LRMP effect on cAMP shifts difficult or impossible.

      Our simple idea, now clarified in the discussion, is that if you look at the regions involved in cAMP transduction (HCND, C-linker, S4-S5), there are very few residues that differ between HCN4 and HCN2. When we mutate the 5 non-conserved residues in the S5 segment and the C-linker, along with the NT, we are able to render HCN2 sensitive to LRMP. Therefore, something about the small sequence differences in this region confer isoform specificity to LRMP. We speculate that this happens because of small structural differences that result from those 5 mutations. If you compare the solved structures of HCN1 and HCN4 (there is no HCN2 structure available), you can see small differences in the distances between key interacting residues in the transduction centre. Also, there is a kink at the bottom of the S4 helix in HCN4 but not HCN1. This points a putatively important residue for cAMP dependence in a different direction in HCN4. We hypothesize in the discussion that this may be how LRMP is isoform specific.

      Moreover, previous work has shown that the HCN4 C-linker is uniquely sensitive to di-cyclic nucleotides and magnesium ions. We are hypothesizing that it is the subtle change in structure that makes this region more prone to regulation in HCN4.

      Reviewing Editor (recommendations for the Authors):

      (1) Exemplar recordings need to be shown and some explanation for the wide variability in the V-half of activation.

      Exemplar currents are now shown for each channel. See the response to Reviewer 3’s public comment 2.

      (2) The rationale for cut sites in LRMP for the investigation of which parts of the protein are important for blocking the effect of cAMP is not logically presented in light of the modular schematics of domains in the protein (N-term, CCD, post-CCD, etc).

      There is limited structural data on LRMP and the HCN4 N-terminus. The cut sites in this paper were determined empirically. We made fragments that were small enough to work for our FRET hybridization approach and that expressed well in our HEK cell system. The residue numbering of the LRMP modules is based on updated structural predictions using Alphafold, which was released after our fragments were designed. This has been clarified in the methods section on pages 5-6 and the Figure 2 legend of the revised manuscript.

      (3) Role of the HCN4 C-terminus. Truncation of the HCN4 C-terminus unstructured Cterminus distal to the CNBD (Fig. 4 A, B) partially reverses the impact of LRMP (i.e. there is now a significant increase in cAMP effect compared to full-length HCN4). The manuscript is written in a manner that minimizes the potential role of the C-terminus and it is, therefore, eliminated from consideration in subsequent experiments (e.g. FRET) and the discussion. The model is incomplete without considering the impact of the C-terminus.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment as it was a result that we too readily dismissed. We have added discussion around this point and revised our model to suggest that not only can we not eliminate a role for the distal C-terminus, our data is consistent with it having a modest role. Our HCN4-2 chimera and HCN4-S719x data both suggest the possibility that the distal C-terminus might be having some effect on LRMP regulation. We have clarified this in the results (pages 12-13) and discussion (page 19).

      (4) For FRET experiments, it is not clear why LF should show an interaction with N2 (residues 125-160) but not NF (residues 1-160). N2 is contained within NF, and given that Citrine and Cerulean are present on the C-terminus of LF and N2/NF, respectively, residues 1-124 in NF should not impact the detection of FRET because of greater separation between the fluorophores as suggested by the authors.

      This is a fair point but FRET is somewhat more complicated. We do not know the structure of these fragments and it’s hard to speculate where the fluorophores are oriented in this type of assay. Moreover, this hybridization assay is sensitive to affinity and expression as well. There are a number of reasons why the larger 1-260 fragment might show reduced FRET compared to 125-260. As mentioned in our response to reviewer 2’s public comment 2, we have added a limitation section that outlines the various caveats of FRET that could explain this.

      (5) For FRET experiments, the choice of using pieces of the channel that do not correlate with the truncations studied in functional electrophysiological experiments limits the holistic interpretation of the data. Also, no explanation or discussion is provided for why LRMP fragments that are capable of binding to the HCN4 N-terminus as determined by FRET (e.g. residues 1-108 and 110-230, respectively) do not have a functional impact on the channel.

      As mentioned in the response to comment 2, the exact fragment design is a function of which fragments expressed well in HEK cells. Importantly, because FRET experiments do not provide atomic resolution for the caveats listed in the revised limitations section on page 20-21, small differences in the cut sites do not change the interpretation of these results. For example, the N-terminal 1-125 construct is analogous to experiments with the Δ1-130 HCN4 channel.

      We suspect that residues in both fragments are required and that the interaction involves multiple parts. This is stated in the results “Thus, the first 227 residues of LRMP are sufficient to regulate HCN4, with residues in both halves of the LRMP N-terminus necessary for the regulation” (page 11). We have also added discussion on this on page 21.

      (6) A striking result was that mutating two residues in the C-linker of HCN4 to amino acids found in HCN channels not affected by LRMP (P545A, T547F), completely eliminated the impact of LRMP on preventing cAMP regulation of channel activation. However, a chimeric channel, (HCN4-2) in which the C-linker, the CNBD, and the C-terminus of HCN4 were replaced by that of HCN2 was found to be partially responsive to LRMP. These two results appear inconsistent and not reconciled in the model proposed by the authors for how LRMP may be working.

      As stated in our answer to your question #3, we have revised our interpretation of these data. If the more distal C-terminus plays some role in the orientation of the C-linker and the transduction centre as a whole, these data can still be viewed consistent with our model. We have added some discussion of this idea in our discussion section.

      (7) Replacing the HCN2 N-terminus with that from HCN4, along with mutations in the S5 (MCS/VVG) and C-linker (AF/PT) recapitulated LRMP regulation on the HCN2 background. The functional importance of the S5 mutations is not clear as no other experiments are shown to indicate whether they are necessary for the observed effect.

      We have added our experiments on a midpoint HCN2 clone that includes the S5 mutants and the C-linker mutants in the absence of the HCN4 N-terminus (ie HCN2 MCSAF/VVGPT) (Fig. 7). And we have discussed our rationale for the S5 mutations as we believe they may be responsible for the different orientations of the S4-S5 linker in HCN1 and HCN4 structures that are known to impact cAMP regulation.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      A) Comments:

      (1) Figure 1: Please show some representative current traces.

      Exemplar currents are now shown for each channel in the manuscript.

      (2) Figure 1: There appears to be a huge number of recordings for HCN4 +/- cAMP as compared to those with LRMP 1-479Cit. How was the number of recordings needed for sufficient statistical power decided? This is particularly important because the observed slowing of deactivation by cAMP in Fig. 1C seems like it may be fairly subtle. Perhaps a swarm plot would make the shift more apparent? Also, LRMP 1-479Cit distributions in Fig. 1B-C look like they are more uniform than normal, so please double-check the appropriateness of the statistical test employed.

      We have revised the methods section (page 7) to discuss this, briefly we performed regular control experiments throughout this project to ensure that a normal cAMP response was occurring. Our minimum target for sufficient power was 8-10 recordings. We have expanded the statistics section (page 9) to discuss tests of normality and the use of a log scale for deactivation time constants which is why the shifts in Fig. 1D (revised) are less apparent.

      (3) It would be helpful if the authors could better introduce their logic for the M338V/C341V/S345G mutations in the HCN4-2 VVGPT mutant.

      See response to the reviewing editor’s comment 7.

      B) Minor Comments:

      (1) pg. 9: "We found that LRMP 1-479Cit inhibited HCN4 to an even greater degree than the full-length LRMP, likely because expression of this tagged construct was improved compared to the untagged full-length LRMP, which was detected by co-transfection with GFP." Co-transfection with GFP seems like an extremely poor and a risky measure for LRMP expression.

      We agree that the exact efficiency of co-transfection is contentious although some papers and manufacturer protocols indicate high co-transfection efficiency (Xie et al., 2011). In this paper we used both co-transfection and tagged proteins with similar results.

      (2) pg 9: "LRMP 1-227 construct contains the N-terminus of LRMP with a cut-site near the Nterminus of the predicted coiled-coil sequence". In Figure 2 the graphic shows the coiledcoil domain starting at 191. What was the logic for splitting at 227 which appears to be the middle of the coiled-coil?

      See response to the reviewing editor’s comment 2.

      (3) Figure 5C: Please align the various schematics for HCN4 as was done for LRMP. It makes it much easier to decipher what is what.

      Fig. 5 has been revised as suggested.

      (4) pg 12: I assume that the HCN2 fragment chosen aligns with the HCN4 N2 fragment which shows binding, but this logic should be stated if that is the case. If not, then how was the HCN2 fragment chosen?

      This is correct. This has been explicitly stated in the revised manuscript (page 14).

      (5) Figure 7: Add legend indicating black/gray = HCN4 and blue = HCN2.

      This has been stated in the revised figure legend.

      (6) pg 17: Conservation of P545 and T547 across mammalian species is not shown or cited.

      This sentence is not included in the revised manuscript, however, for the interest of the reviewer we have provided an alignment of this region across species here.

      Author response image 1.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) It is not clear whether in the absence of cAMP, LRMP also modestly shifts the voltagedependent activity of the channels. Please clarify.

      We have clarified that LRMP does not shift the voltage-dependence in the absence of cAMP (page 10). In the absence of cAMP, LRMP does not significantly shift the voltagedependence of activation in any of the channels we have tested in this paper (or in our prior 2020 paper).

      (2) Resolution of Fig. 8b is low.

      We ultimately decided that the cartoon did not provide any important information for understanding our model and it was removed.

      (3) Please add a supplementary figure showing the amino acid sequence of LRMP to show where the demarcations are made for each fragment as well as where the truncations were made as noted in Fig 3 and Fig 4.

      A new supplementary figure showing the LRMP sequence has been added and cited in the methods section (page 5). Truncation sites have been added to the schematic in Fig. 2A.

      (4) In the cartoon schematic illustration for Fig. 3 and Fig.4, the legend should include that the thick bold lines in the C-Terminal domain represent the CNBD, while the thick bold lines in the N-Terminal domain represent the HCN domain. This was mentioned in Liao 2012, as you referenced when you defined the construct S719X, but it would be nice for the reader to know that the thick bold lines you have drawn in your cartoon indicate that it also highlights the CNBD or the HCN domain.

      This has been added to figure legends for the relevant figures in the revised manuscript.

      (5) On page 12, missing a space between "residues" and "1" in the parenthesis "...LRMP L1 (residues1-108)...".

      Fixed. Thank you.

      (6) Which isoform of LRMP was used? What is the NCBI accession number? Is it the same one from Peters 2020 ("MC228229")?

      This information has been added to the methods (page 5). It is the same as Peters 2020.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) "Truncation of residues 1-62 led to a partial LRMP effect where cAMP caused a significant depolarizing shift in the presence of LRMP, but the activation in the presence of LRMP and cAMP was hyperpolarized compared to cAMP alone (Fig. 3B, C and 3E; Table 1). In the HCN4Δ1-130 construct, cAMP caused a significant depolarizing shift in the presence of LRMP; however, the midpoint of activation in the presence of LRMP and cAMP showed a non-significant trend towards hyperpolarization compared to cAMP alone (Fig. 3C and 3E; Table 1)".

      This means that sequence 62-185 is necessary and sufficient for the LRMP effect. I suggest a competition assay with this peptide (synthetic, or co-expressed with HCN4 full-length and LRMP to see whether the peptide inhibits the LRMP effect).

      We respectfully disagree with the reviewer’s interpretation. Our results, strongly suggest that other regions such as residues 25-65 (Fig. 3C) and C-terminal residues (Fig. 6) are also necessary. The use of a peptide could be an interesting future experiment, however, it would be very difficult to control relative expression of a co-expressed peptide. We think that our results in Fig. 7E-F where this fragment is added to HCN2 are a better controlled way of validating the importance of this region.

      (2) "Truncation of the distal C-terminus (of HCN4) did not prevent LRMP regulation. In the presence of both LRMP and cAMP the activation of HCN4-S719X was still significantly hyperpolarized compared to the presence of cAMP alone (Figs. 4A and 4B; Table 1). And the cAMP-induced shift in HCN4-S719X in the presence of LRMP (~7mV) was less than half the shift in the absence of LRMP (~18 mV)."

      On the basis of the partial effects reported for the truncations of the N-terminus of HCN4 162 and 1-130 (Fig 3B and C), I do not think it is possible to conclude that "truncation of the distal C-terminus (of HCN4) did not prevent LRMP regulation". Indeed, cAMP-induced shift in HCN4 Δ1-62 and Δ1-130 in the presence of LRMP were 10.9 and 10.5 mV, respectively, way more than the ~7mV measured for the HCN4-S719X mutant.

      As you rightly stated at the end of the paragraph:" Together, these results show significant LRMP regulation of HCN4 even when the distal C-terminus is truncated, consistent with a minimal role for the C-terminus in the regulatory pathway". I would better discuss this minimal role of the C-terminus. It is true that deletion of the first 185 aa of HCN4 Nterminus abolishes the LRMP effect, but it is also true that removal of the very Cterm of HCN4 does affect LRMP. This unstructured C-terminal region of HCN4 contains isotype-specific sequences. Maybe they also play a role in recognizing LRMP. Thus, I would suggest further investigation via truncations, even internal deletions of HCN4-specific sequences.

      Please see the response to the reviewing editor’s comment 3.

      (3) Figure 5: The N-terminus of LRMP FRETs with the N-terminus of HCN4.

      Why didn't you test the same truncations used in Fig. 3? Indeed, based on Fig 3, sequences 1-25 can be removed. I would have considered peptides 26-62 and 63-130 and 131-185 and a fourth (26-185). This set of peptides will help you connect binding with the functional effects of the truncations tested in Fig 3.

      Please see the response to the reviewing editor’s comment 2 and 5.

      Why didn't you test the C-terminus (from 719 till the end) of HCN4? This can help with understanding why truncation of HCN4 Cterminus does affect LRMP, tough partially (Fig. 4A).

      Please see the response to the reviewing editor’s comment 3.

      (4) "We found that a previously described HCN4-2 chimera containing the HCN4 N-terminus and transmembrane domains (residues 1-518) with the HCN2 C-terminus (442-863) (Liao et al., 2012) was partially regulated by LRMP (Fig. 7A and 7B)".

      I do not understand this partial LRMP effect on the HCN4-2 chimera. In Fig. 6 you have shown that the "HCN4-P545A/T547F was insensitive to LRMP (Figs. 6B and 6C; Table 1), indicating that the unique HCN4 C-linker is necessary for regulation by LRMP". How can be this reconciled with the HCN4-2 chimera? HCN4-2, "containing" P545A/T547F mutations, should not perceive LRMP.

      Please see the response to the reviewing editor’s comment 6.

      (5) "we next made a targeted chimera of HCN2 that contains the distal HCN4 N-terminus (residues 1-212) and the HCN2 transmembrane and C-terminal domains with 5 point mutants in non-conserved residues of the S5 segment and C-linker elbow (M338V/C341V/S345G/A467P/F469T)......Importantly, the HCN4-2 VVGPT channel is insensitive to cAMP in the presence of LRMP (Fig. 7C and 7D), indicating that the HCN4 Nterminus and cAMP-transduction centre residues are sufficient to confer LRMP regulation to HCN2".

      Why did you insert also the 3 mutations of S5? Are these mutations somehow involved in the cAMP transduction mechanism?

      You have already shown that in HCN4 only P545 and T547 (Clinker) are necessary for LRMP effect. I suggest to try, at least, the chimera of HCN2 with only A467P/F469T. They should work without the 3 mutations in S5.

      Please see the response to the reviewing editor’s comment 7.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors investigated the effect of chronic activation of dopamine neurons using chemogenetics. Using Gq-DREADDs, the authors chronically activated midbrain dopamine neurons and observed that these neurons, particularly their axons, exhibit increased vulnerability and degeneration, resembling the pathological symptoms of Parkinson's disease. Baseline calcium levels in midbrain dopamine neurons were also significantly elevated following the chronic activation. Lastly, to identify cellular and circuit-level changes in response to dopaminergic neuronal degeneration caused by chronic activation, the authors employed spatial genomics (Visium) and revealed comprehensive changes in gene expression in the mouse model subjected to chronic activation. In conclusion, this study presents novel data on the consequences of chronic hyperactivation of midbrain dopamine neurons.

      Strengths:

      This study provides direct evidence that the chronic activation of dopamine neurons is toxic and gives rise to neurodegeneration. In addition, the authors achieved the chronic activation of dopamine neurons using water application of clozapine-N-oxide (CNO), a method not commonly employed by researchers. This approach may offer new insights into pathophysiological alterations of dopamine neurons in Parkinson's disease. The authors also utilized state-of-the-art spatial gene expression analysis, which can provide valuable information for other researchers studying dopamine neurons. Although the authors did not elucidate the mechanisms underlying dopaminergic neuronal and axonal death, they presented a substantial number of intriguing ideas in their discussion, which are worth further investigation.

      We thank the reviewer for these positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      Many claims raised in this paper are only partially supported by the experimental results. So, additional data are necessary to strengthen the claims. The effects of chronic activation of dopamine neurons are intriguing; however, this paper does not go beyond reporting phenomena. It lacks a comprehensive explanation for the degeneration of dopamine neurons and their axons. While the authors proposed possible mechanisms for the degeneration in their discussion, such as differentially expressed genes, these remain experimentally unexplored.

      We thank the reviewer for this review. We do believe that the manuscript has a substantial mechanistic component, as the central experiments involve direct manipulation of neuronal activity, and we show an increase in calcium levels and gene expression changes in dopamine neurons that coincide with the degeneration. However, we agree that deeper mechanistic investigation would strengthen the conclusions of the paper. We have executed several important revisions, including the addition of CNO behavioral controls, manipulation of intracellular calcium using isradipine, additional transcriptomics experiments and further validation of findings. We believe that these additions significantly bolster the conclusions of the paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Rademacher et al. present a paper showing that chronic chemogenetic excitation of dopaminergic neurons in the mouse midbrain results in differential degeneration of axons and somas across distinct regions (SNc vs VTA). These findings are important. This mouse model also has the advantage of showing a axon-first degeneration over an experimentally-useful time course (2-4 weeks). 2. The findings that direct excitation of dopaminergic neurons causes differential degeneration sheds light on the mechanisms of dopaminergic neuron selective vulnerability. The evidence that activation of dopaminergic neurons causes degeneration and alters mRNA expression is convincing, as the authors use both vehicle and CNO control groups, but the evidence that chronic dopaminergic activation alters circadian rhythm and motor behavior is incomplete as the authors did not run a CNO-control condition in these experiments.

      Strengths:

      This is an exciting and important paper.

      The paper compares mouse transcriptomics with human patient data.

      It shows that selective degeneration can occur across the midbrain dopaminergic neurons even in the absence of a genetic, prion, or toxin neurodegeneration mechanism.

      We thank the reviewer for these comments.

      Weaknesses:

      Major concerns:

      (1) The lack of a CNO-positive, DREADD-negative control group in the behavioral experiments is the main limitation in interpreting the behavioral data. Without knowing whether CNO on its own has an impact on circadian rhythm or motor activity, the certainty that dopaminergic hyperactivity is causing these effects is lacking.

      We thank the reviewer for this important recommendation. Although the initial version showed that CNO does not produce degeneration of DA neuron terminals, it did not exclude a contribution to the behavioral changes. To address this, we now include a cohort of DREADD free non-injected mice treated with either vehicle or CNO (Figure S1C). We found that on its own, CNO did not significantly impact either light cycle or dark cycle running. Together these results along with the lack of degeneration observed with CNO treatment in non-DREADD mice (Figure 2D) support that our behavioral and histological results are the result of dopamine neuron activation.

      (2) One of the most exciting things about this paper is that the SNc degenerates more strongly than the VTA when both regions are, in theory, excited to the same extent. However, it is not perfectly clear that both regions respond to CNO to the same extent. The electrophysiological data showing CNO responsiveness is only conducted in the SNc. If the VTA response is significantly reduced vs the SNc response, then the selectivity of the SNc degeneration could just be because the SNc was more hyperactive than the VTA. Electrophysiology experiments comparing the VTA and SNc response to CNO could support the idea that the SNc has substantial intrinsic vulnerability factors compared to the VTA.

      We agree that additional electrophysiology conducted in the VTA dopamine neurons would meaningfully add to our understanding of the selective vulnerability in this model, and have completed these experiments in the revision (Figure 1, Figure S2). We now show that in vivo treatment with CNO causes some of the same physiological changes in VTA dopamine neurons as we found in SNc dopamine neurons, including an increased spontaneous firing rate, and a similar decrease in responsiveness to CNO in the slice recordings. Together these observations support the conclusion that SNc axons are intrinsically more vulnerable to increased activity than VTA dopamine axons. 

      (3) The mice have access to a running wheel for the circadian rhythm experiments. Running has been shown to alter the dopaminergic system (Bastioli et al., 2022) and so the authors should clarify whether the histology, electrophysiology, fiber photometry, and transcriptomics data are conducted on mice that have been running or sedentary.

      We have clarified which mice had access to a running wheel in the methods of our revision. Briefly, mice for histology, electrophysiology, and transcriptomics all had access to a running wheel during their treatment. The mice used for photometry underwent about 7 days of running wheel access approximately 3 weeks prior to the beginning of the experiment. The photometry headcaps prevented mice from having access to a running wheel in their home cage. Mice used for non-responder and non-hM3Dq (CNO alone) experiments also had access to a running wheel during their treatment. Mice used for the isradipine experiment did not have access to a running wheel, as the number of mice was too large and while unilateral hM3Dq expression allows for within-animal controls, it does not lend to clear interpretation of running wheel data.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Rademacher and colleagues examined the effect on the integrity of the dopamine system in mice of chronically stimulating dopamine neurons using a chemogenetic approach. They find that one to two weeks of constant exposure to the chemogenetic activator CNO leads to a decrease in the density of tyrosine hydroxylase staining in striatal brain sections and to a small reduction of the global population of tyrosine hydroxylase positive neurons in the ventral midbrain. They also report alterations in gene expression in both regions using a spatial transcriptomics approach. Globally, the work is well done and valuable and some of the conclusions are interesting. However, the conceptual advance is perhaps a bit limited in the sense that there is extensive previous work in the literature showing that excessive depolarization of multiple types of neurons associated with intracellular calcium elevations promotes neuronal degeneration. The present work adds to this by showing evidence of a similar phenomenon in dopamine neurons.

      We thank the reviewer for the careful and thoughtful review of our manuscript.

      While extensive depolarization and associated intracellular calcium elevations promote degeneration generally, we emphasize that the process we describe is novel. Indeed, prior studies delivering chronic DREADDs to vulnerable neurons in models of Alzheimer’s disease did not detect an increase in neurodegeneration, despite seeing changes in protein aggregation (e.g. Yuan and Grutzendler, J Neurosci 2016, PMID: 26758850; Hussaini et al., PLOS Bio 2020, PMID: 32822389). Further, a critical finding from our study is that in our paradigm, this stressor does not impact all dopamine neurons equally, as the SNc DA neurons are more vulnerable than VTA DA neurons, mirroring selective vulnerability characteristic of Parkinson’s disease. This is consistent with a large body of literature that SNc dopamine neurons are less capable of handling large energetic and calcium loads compared to neighboring VTA neurons, and the finding that chronically altered activity is sufficient to drive this preferential loss is novel. In addition, we are not aware of prior studies that have chronically activated DREADDs over several weeks to produce neurodegeneration.

      In terms of the mechanisms explaining the neuronal loss observed after 2 to 4 weeks of chemogenetic activation, it would be important to consider that dopamine neurons are known from a lot of previous literature to undergo a decrease in firing through a depolarization-block mechanism when chronically depolarized. Is it possible that such a phenomenon explains much of the results observed in the present study? It would be important to consider this in the manuscript.

      Thank you for this comment. As discussed in greater detail in the “comments on results section” below, our data suggests this isn’t a prominent feature in our model. However, we cannot rule out a contribution of depolarization block, and have expanded on the discussion of this possibility in the revised manuscript.

      The relevance to Parkinson's disease (PD) is also not totally clear because there is not a lot of previous solid evidence showing that the firing of dopamine neurons is increased in PD, either in human subjects or in mouse models of the disease. As such, it is not clear if the present work is really modelling something that could happen in PD in humans.

      We completely agree that evidence of increased dopamine neuron activity from human PD patients is lacking, and the little data that exists is difficult to interpret without human controls. However, as we outline in the manuscript, multiple lines of evidence suggest that the activity level of dopamine neurons almost certainly does change in PD. Therefore, it is very important that we understand how changes in the level of neural activity influence the degeneration of DA neurons. In this paper we examine the impact of increased activity. Increased activity may be compensatory after initial dopamine neuron loss, or may be an initial driver of death (Rademacher & Nakamura, Exp Neurol 2024, PMID: 38092187). In addition to the human and rodent data already discussed in the manuscript, additional support for increased activity in PD models include:

      • Elevated firing rates in asymptomatic MitoPark mice (Good et al., FASEB J 2011, PMID: 21233488)

      • Increased frequency of spontaneous firing in patient-derived iPSC dopamine neurons and primary mouse dopamine neurons that overexpress synuclein (Lin et al., Acta Neuropath Comm 2021, PMID: 34099060)

      • Increased spontaneous firing in dopamine neurons of rats injected with synuclein preformed fibrils compared to sham (Tozzi et al., Brain 2021, PMID: 34297092)

      We have included citation of these important examples in our revision. In our model, we have found that chronic hyperactivity causes a substantial loss of nigral DA terminals while mesolimbic terminals are relatively spared (Figure 2), and that striatal DA levels are markedly decreased (Figure S6), phenomena that are hallmarks of Parkinson’s disease.

      There are additional levels of complexity to accurately model changes in PD, which may differ between subtypes of the disease, the disease stage, and the subtype of dopamine neuron. Our study models a form of increased intrinsic activity, and interpretation of our results will be facilitated as we learn more about how the activity of DA neurons changes in humans in PD. Similarly, in future studies, it will also be important to study the impact of decreasing DA neuron activity.

      Comments on the introduction:

      The introduction cites a 1990 paper from the lab of Anthony Grace as support of the fact that DA neurons increase their firing rate in PD models. However, in this 1990 paper, the authors stated that: "With respect to DA cell activity, depletions of up to 96% of striatal DA did not result in substantial alterations in the proportion of DA neurons active, their mean firing rate, or their firing pattern. Increases in these parameters only occurred when striatal DA depletions exceeded 96%." Such results argue that an increase in firing rate is most likely to be a consequence of the almost complete loss of dopamine neurons rather than an initial driver of neuronal loss. The present introduction would thus benefit from being revised to clarify the overriding hypothesis and rationale in relation to PD and better represent the findings of the paper by Hollerman and Grace.

      We agree that the findings of Hollerman and Grace support compensatory changes in dopamine neuron activity in response to loss of dopamine neurons, rather than informing whether dopamine neuron loss can also be an initial driver of activity. Importantly, while significant changes to burst firing were not seen until almost complete loss of dopamine neurons, these recordings were made in anesthetized rats which may not be representative of neural activity in awake animals. We adjusted the text so that this is no longer referred to as ‘partial’ loss. At the same time, we point out that the results of other studies on this point are mixed: a 50% reduction in dopamine neurons didn’t alter firing rate or bursting (Harden and Grace, J Neurosci 1995, PMID: 7666198; Bilbao et al., Brain Res 2006, PMID: 16574080), while a 40% loss was found to increase firing rate and bursting (Chen et al., Brain Res 2009. PMID: 19545547) and larger reductions alter burst firing (Hollerman & Grace, Brain Res 1990, PMID: 2126975; Stachowiak et al., J Neurosci 1987, PMID: 3110381). Importantly, even if compensatory, such late-stage increases in dopamine neuron activity may contribute to disease progression and drive a vicious cycle of degeneration in surviving neurons. In addition, we also don’t know how the threshold of dopamine neuron loss and altered activity may differ between mice and humans, and PD patients do not present with clinical symptoms until ~30-60% of nigral neurons are lost (Burke & O’Malley, Exp Neurol 2013, PMID: 22285449; Shulman et al., Annu Rev Pathol 2011, PMID: 21034221).   

      Other lines of evidence support the potential role of hyperactivity in disease initiation, including increased activity before dopamine neuron loss in MitoPark mice (Good et al., FASEB J 2011, PMID: 21233488), increased spontaneous firing in patient-derived iPSC dopamine neurons (Lin et al., Acta Neuropath Comm 2021, PMID: 34099060), and increased activity observed in genetic models of PD (Bishop et al., J Neurophysiol 2010, PMID: 20926611; Regoni et al., Cell Death Dis 2020, PMID: 33173027).

      It would be good that the introduction refers to some of the literature on the links between excessive neuronal activity, calcium, and neurodegeneration. There is a large literature on this and referring to it would help frame the work and its novelty in a broader context.

      We agree that a discussion of hyperactivity, calcium, and neurodegeneration would benefit the introduction. Accordingly, we have expanded on our citation of this literature in both the introduction and discussion sections. However, we believe that the novelty of our study lies in: 1) a chronic chemogenetic activation paradigm via drinking water, 2) demonstrating selective vulnerability of dopamine neurons as a result of altering their activity/excitability alone, and 3) comparing mouse and human spatial transcriptomics.

      Comments on the results section:

      The running wheel results of Figure 1 suggest that the CNO treatment caused a brief increase in running on the first day after which there was a strong decrease during the subsequent days in the active phase. This observation is also in line with the appearance of a depolarization block.

      The authors examined many basic electrophysiological parameters of recorded dopamine neurons in acute brain slices. However, it is surprising that they did not report the resting membrane potential, or the input resistance. It would be important that this be added because these two parameters provide key information on the basal excitability of the recorded neurons. They would also allow us to obtain insight into the possibility that the neurons are chronically depolarized and thus in depolarization block.

      We do report the input resistance in Figure S1C (now Figure S2A, S2B), which was unchanged in CNO-treated animals compared to controls. We did not previously report the resting membrane potential because many of the DA neurons were spontaneously firing. In the revision, we now report the initial membrane potential on first breaking into the cell for the whole cell recordings, which did not vary between groups (Figure S2). This is still influenced by action potential activity, but is the timepoint in the recording least impacted by dialyzing the neuron with the internal solution, which might alter the intracellular concentrations of ions. We observed increased spontaneous action potential activity ex vivo in slices from CNO-treated mice (Figure 1D), thus at least under these conditions these dopamine neurons are not in depolarization block. We also did not see strong evidence of changes in other intrinsic properties of the neurons with whole cell recordings (e.g. Figure S2). Overall, our electrophysiology experiments are not consistent with the depolarization block model, at least not due to changes in the intrinsic properties of the neurons. Although our ex vivo findings cannot exclude a contribution of depolarization block in vivo, we do show that CNO-treated mice removed from their cages for open field testing continue to have a strong trend for increased activity for approximately 10 days (Figure S4B). This finding is also consistent with increased activity of the DA neurons. We have added discussion of these important considerations in the revision.

      It is great that the authors quantified not only TH levels but also the levels of mCherry, coexpressed with the chemogenetic receptor. This could in principle help to distinguish between TH downregulation and true loss of dopamine neuron cell bodies. However, the approach used here has a major caveat in that the number of mCherry-positive dopamine neurons depends on the proportion of dopamine neurons that were infected and expressed the DREADD and this could very well vary between different mice. It is very unlikely that the virus injection allowed to infect 100% of the neurons in the VTA and SNc. This could for example explain in part the mismatch between the number of VTA dopamine neurons counted in panel 2G when comparing TH and mCherry counts. Also, I see that the mCherry counts were not provided at the 2-week time point. If the mCherry had been expressed genetically by crossing the DAT-Cre mice with a floxed fluorescent reported mice, the interpretation would have been simpler. In this context, I am not convinced of the benefit of the mCherry quantifications. The authors should consider either removing these results from the final manuscript or discussing this important limitation.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and we agree that this is a caveat of our mCherry quantification. Quantitation of the number of mCherry+ DA neurons specifically informs the impact on transduced DA neurons, and mCherry appears to be less susceptible to downregulation versus TH. As the reviewer points out, it carries the caveat that there is some variability between injections. Our control animals give us an indicator of injection variability, which is likely substantial and prevents us from detecting more subtle changes. Nonetheless, we believe that it conveys useful complementary data. We discuss this caveat in our revision. Note that mCherry was not quantified at the two-week timepoint because there is no loss of TH+ cells at that time.

      Although the authors conclude that there is a global decrease in the number of dopamine neurons after 4 weeks of CNO treatment, the post-hoc tests failed to confirm that the decrease in dopamine number was significant in the SNc, the region most relevant to Parkinson's. This could be due to the fact that only a small number of mice were tested. A "n" of just 4 or 5 mice is very small for a stereological counting experiment. As such, this experiment was clearly underpowered at the statistical level. Also, the choice of the image used to illustrate this in panel 2G should be reconsidered: the image suggests that a very large loss of dopamine

      neurons occurred in the SNc and this is not what the numbers show. A more representative image should be used.

      We agree that the stereology experiments were performed on relatively small numbers of animals, such that only robust effects would be detected. Combined with the small effect size, this may have contributed to the post-hoc tests showing a trend of p=0.1 for both the TH and mCherry dopamine cell counts in the SN at 4 weeks. Given this small effect size, we would indeed need much larger groups to better discern these changes. Stereology is an intensive technique, and we have therefore elected to focus on terminal loss. We have also replaced panel 2G with a more representative CNO image.

      In Figure 3, the authors attempt to compare intracellular calcium levels in dopamine neurons using GCaMP6 fluorescence. Because this calcium indicator is not quantitative (unlike ratiometric sensors such as Fura2), it is usually used to quantify relative changes in intracellular calcium. The present use of this probe to compare absolute values is unusual and the validity of this approach is unclear. This limitation needs to be discussed. The authors also need to refer in the text to the difference between panels D and E of this figure. It is surprising that the fluctuations in calcium levels were not quantified. I guess the hypothesis was that there should be more or larger fluctuations in the mice treated with CNO if the CNO treatment led to increased firing. This needs to be clarified.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We understand that this method of comparing absolute values is unconventional. However, these animals were tested concurrently on the same system, and a clear effect on the absolute baseline was observed. We have included a caveat of this in our discussion. Panel D of this figure shows the raw, uncorrected photometry traces, whereas panel E shows the isosbestic corrected traces for the same recording. In panel E, the traces follow time in ascending order. We have also included frequency and amplitude data for these recordings (Figure S4A), along with discussion of the significance of these findings.

      Although the spatial transcriptomic results are intriguing and certainly a great way to start thinking about how the CNO treatment could lead to the loss of dopamine neurons, the presented results, the focusing of some broad classes of differentially expressed genes and on some specific examples, do not really suggest any clear mechanism of neurodegeneration. It would perhaps be useful for the authors to use the obtained data to validate that a state of chronic depolarization was indeed induced by the chronic CNO treatment. Were genes classically linked to increased activity like cfos or bdnf elevated in the SNc or VTA dopamine neurons? In the striatum, the authors report that the levels of DARP32, a gene whose levels are linked to dopamine levels, are unchanged. Does this mean that there were no major changes in dopamine levels in the striatum of these mice?

      While levels of DARPP32 mRNA were unchanged, our additional HPLC data show strong decreases in striatal dopamine in hyperactivated mice. We do not see strong changes in classic activity-related genes (data not shown), however these genes may behave differently in the context of chronic hyperactivity and ongoing degeneration. Instead, we employed NEUROeSTIMator (Bahl et al., Nature Comm. 2024, PMID: 38278804), a deep learning method to predict neural activation based on transcriptomic data. We found that predicted activity scores were significantly higher in GqCNO dopaminergic regions compared to controls (Figure X). Indeed, some of the genes used within the model to predict activity are immediate early genes eg. c-fos.

      The usefulness of comparing the transcriptome of human PD SNc or VTA sections to that of the present mouse model should be better explained. In the human tissues, the transcriptome reflects the state of the tissue many years after extensive loss of dopamine neurons. It is expected that there will be few if any SNc neurons left in such sections. In comparison, the mice after 7 days of CNO treatment do not appear to have lost any dopamine neurons. As such, how can the two extremely different conditions be reasonably compared? Our mouse model and human PD progress over distinct timescales, as is the case with essentially all mouse models of neurodegenerative diseases. Nonetheless, in our view there is still great value in comparing gene expression changes in mouse models with those in human disease. It seems very likely that the same pathologic processes that drive degeneration early in the disease continue to drive degeneration later in the disease. Note that we have tried to address the discrepancy in time scales in part by comparing our mouse model to early PD samples when there is more limited SNc DA neuron loss (see the proportion of DA neurons within the areas of human tissues we selected for sampling in Author response image 1). Therefore, we can indeed use spatial transcriptomics to compare dopamine neurons from mice with initial degeneration to those in patients where degeneration is ongoing.    

      Author response image 1.

      Violin plot of DA neuron proportions sampled within the vulnerable SNV (deconvoluted RCTD method used in unmasked tissue sections of the SNV). Control and early PD subjects.

      Comments on the discussion:

      In the discussion, the authors state that their calcium photometry results support a central role of calcium in activity-induced neurodegeneration. This conclusion, although plausible because of the very broad pre-existing literature linking calcium elevation (such as in excitotoxicity) to neuronal loss, should be toned down a bit as no causal relationship was established in the experiments that were carried out in the present study.

      Our model utilizes hM3Dq-DREADDs that function by activating Gq pathways that are classically expected to increase intracellular calcium to increase neuronal excitability. Indeed in slices from mice that were not treated with CNO, acute CNO application caused depolarizations (Figure 1E) that can be due to an increase in intracellular calcium and also cause increases in intracellular calcium. Additionally, our results show increased calcium by fiber photometry and changes to calcium-related genes, suggesting a causal relation and crucial role of calcium in the mechanism of degeneration. However, we agree that we have not experimentally proven this point. Indeed, a small preliminary experiment with chronic isradipine failed to show protection, although it lacked power to detect a partial effect. We have acknowledged this in the text, and also briefly consider other mechanisms such as increased dopamine levels that could also mediate the toxicity.

      In the discussion, the authors discuss some of the parallel changes in gene expression detected in the mouse model and in the human tissues. Because few if any dopamine neurons are expected to remain in the SNc of the human tissues used, this sort of comparison has important conceptual limitations and these need to be clearly addressed.

      As discussed, we sampled SN DA neurons in early PD (see Author response image 1), and in our view there is great value for such comparisons.

      A major limitation of the present discussion is that it does not discuss the possibility that the observed phenotypes are caused by the induction of a chronic state of depolarization block by the chronic CNO treatment. I encourage the authors to consider and discuss this hypothesis.

      As discussed above, our analyses of DA neuron firing in slices and open field testing to date do not support a prominent contribution of depolarization block with chronic CNO treatment. However, we cannot rule out this hypothesis, therefore we have included additional electrophysiology experiments and have added discussion of this important consideration.  

      Also, the authors need to discuss the fact that previous work was only able to detect an increase in the firing rate of dopamine neurons after more than 95% loss of dopamine neurons. As such, the authors need to clearly discuss the relevance of the present model to PD. Are changes in firing rate a driver of neuronal loss in PD, as the authors try to make the case here, or are such changes only a secondary consequence of extensive neuronal loss (for example because a major loss of dopamine would lead to reduced D2 autoreceptor activation in the remaining neurons, and to reduced autoreceptor-mediated negative feedback on firing). This needs to be discussed.

      As discussed above, while increases in dopamine neuron activity may be compensatory after loss of neurons, the precise percentage required to induce such compensatory changes is not defined in mice and varies between paradigms, and the threshold level is not known in humans. We also reiterate that a compensatory increase in activity could still promote the degeneration of critical surviving DA neurons, whose loss underlies the substantial decline in motor function that typically occurs over the course of PD. Moreover, there are also multiple lines of evidence to suggest that changes in activity can initiate and drive dopamine neuron degeneration (Rademacher & Nakamura, Exp Neurol 2024). For example, overexpression of synuclein can increase firing in cultured dopamine neurons (Dagra et al., NPJ Parkinsons Dis 2021, PMID: 34408150), while mice expressing mutant Parkin have higher mean firing rates (Regoni et al., Cell Death Dis 2020, PMID: 33173027). Similarly, an increased firing rate has been reported in the MitoPark mouse model of PD at a time preceding DA neuron degeneration (Good et al., FASEB J 2011, PMID: 21233488). We also acknowledge that alterations to dopamine neuron activity are likely complex in PD, and that dopamine neuron health and function can be impacted not just by simple increases in activity, but also by changes in activity patterns and regularity. We have amended our discussion to include the important caveat of changes in activity occurring as compensation, as well as further evidence of changes in activity preceding dopamine neuron death.

      There is a very large, multi-decade literature on calcium elevation and its effects on neuronal loss in many different types of neurons. The authors should discuss their findings in this context and refer to some of this previous work. In a nutshell, the observations of the present manuscript could be summarized by stating that the chronic membrane depolarization induced by the CNO treatment is likely to induce a chronic elevation of intracellular calcium and this is then likely to activate some of the well-known calcium-dependent cell death mechanisms. Whether such cell death is linked in any way to PD is not really demonstrated by the present results. The authors are encouraged to perform a thorough revision of the discussion to address all of these issues, discuss the major limitations of the present model, and refer to the broad pre-existing literature linking membrane depolarization, calcium, and neuronal loss in many neuronal cell types.

      While our model demonstrates classic excitotoxic cell death pathways, we would like to emphasize both the chronic nature of our manipulation and the progressive changes observed, with increasing degeneration seen at 1, 2, and 4 weeks of hyperactivity in an axon-first manner. This is a unique aspect of our study, in contrast to much of the previous literature which has focused on shorter timescales. Thus, while we have revised the discussion to more comprehensively acknowledge previous studies of calcium-dependent neuron cell death, we believe we have made several new contributions that are not predicted by existing literature. We have shown that this chronic manipulation is specifically toxic to nigral dopamine neurons, and the data that VTA dopamine neurons continue to be resilient even at 4 weeks is interesting and disease-relevant. We therefore do not want to use findings from other neuron types to draw assumptions about DA neurons, which are a unique and very diverse population. We acknowledge that as with all preclinical models of PD, we cannot draw definitive conclusions about PD with this data. However, we reiterate that we strongly believe that drawing connections to human disease is important, as dopamine neuron activity is very likely altered in PD and a clearer understanding of how dopamine neuron survival is impacted by activity will provide insight into the mechanisms of PD.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The temporal design of the experiments is quite confusing. For instance, Figures 1 and 3 illustrate the daily changes of the mice and suggest some critical time points within 2 weeks of CNO administration, whereas Figure 2 presents data at 2 and 4 weeks, which are much later than the proposed critical time points. Furthermore, Figure 4 includes only 1 week data, and lacks subsequent data from 2 and 4 weeks, at which significant changes such as calcium levels and neuronal/axonal degeneration are observed.

      While interesting behavior and calcium phenotypes were detected within 2 and 4 weeks of CNO administration (Figures 1 and 3), we only collected tissues for histology at the 2 and 4 week time points (Figure 2). Observing degeneration of DA neuron axons but not cell bodies at 2 weeks served as a rationale to extend to the 4 week time point to determine whether degeneration was progressive. At the same time, our primary focus is on identifying early changes that may drive or contribute to the degeneration. As such, we recorded calcium changes over a 2-week treatment period, capturing the period during which almost all of the dopamine axons are lost. Similarly, we had the capacity to perform spatial transcriptomics at only one time point, and the 1 week time point was selected to capture transcriptomic changes that precede and potentially contribute to the mild and severe degeneration that occurs at 2 and 4 weeks, respectively. We have added text clarifying the rationale for the time points chosen.

      (2) The authors showed the changes in neuronal firing in dopamine neurons by the administration of CNO. However, one of the most important features of dopaminergic neuronal activity is dopamine release at its axon terminals in the striatum. Thus, the claims raised in this paper would be better supported if the authors further show any alterations in dopamine release (by FSCV or fluorescent dopamine sensors) at some critical time points during or after CNO application.

      While we are confident that DA release is altered due to the significant changes in behavior when hM3Dq DREADDs are activated specifically in DA neurons, the current manuscript does not quantify this, or distinguish between axonal and somatodendritic DA release. Interestingly, we did find significantly decreased striatal dopamine by HPLC after chronic activation (Figure S6). We believe that resolving these questions is beyond the scope of this manuscript, but have added text indicating the importance of these experiments.

      (3) The authors used 2% sucrose as a vehicle via drinking water. Please explain the rationale behind this choice.

      We used 2% sucrose as the vehicle because it is also added to the CNO water to counteract the bitterness of CNO (Kumar et al., J Neurotrauma 2024, PMID: 37905504). We have clarified this in the manuscript.

      (4) As we know, mRNA levels of some genes do not always predict their protein levels; there is sometimes a huge discrepancy between mRNA and protein abundance. In this paper, the mechanistic interpretation of the results by the authors heavily relies on the spatial transcriptomics of the midbrain and striatum. Thus, the authors need to provide additional data proving that the gene expression of some genes in the CNO group is also changed at the level of protein.

      We agree that validating hits at the protein level is valuable, however we were limited in our ability to assess these changes for the revision. However, we have done additional transcriptomics with the high resolution Xenium platform to increase confidence in a subset of hits of interest for follow up in future work, and we included data on genes related to DA metabolism and markers of DA neurons.

      (5) The authors provided spatial transcriptomics data only for mice with one week of chronic activation. However, other data also indicate significant differences when the activation period extends beyond 10 to 12 days (Figure 1C, Figure 3D-F). While a 7-day chronic activation time point might be crucial, additional transcriptomics data from later time points would be beneficial to confirm the persistence of these changes in gene expression. Furthermore, differential gene expression (DEG) analysis at these later time points could identify novel pathways or genes influenced by the chronic activation of dopamine neurons.

      This is an interesting point and would provide valuable data as to how chronic activity influences gene expression, however additional transcriptomics at later timepoints is beyond the scope of this paper. In future studies we will assess changes observed in this manuscript at other time points.

      (6) Figure 1D, Figure S1C:

      The authors should present the sample recording traces to demonstrate that the electrophysiological recordings were appropriately made.

      These data have been provided in Figure S2.

      (7) Figure S1C:

      AP thresholds in SNc dopamine neurons from both groups look quite high. In addition, considering the data from the previous reports, AP peak amplitudes in SNc dopamine neurons from both groups seem to be very low. Are these values correct? 

      The thresholds and peaks are correct, including the AP (threshold to peak), which is typical in our (Dr. Margolis’s) experience. AP thresholds are measured from an average of at least 10 APs, as the voltage at which the derivative of the trace first exceeds 10 V/s. As mentioned in the methods section, junction potentials were not corrected, which can result in values that are a bit depolarized from ground truth. This junction potential would be consistent across all recordings, thus not impede detection of a difference in AP thresholds between groups of animals.

      (8) Figure 1E:

      It would be better if the statistical significance is depicted in the graph.

      We don’t perform repeated measures statistics across data like these, as the data are continuous, collected at 10 kHz. For ease of displaying the data, the data for each neuron is binned and then these traces are averaged together. We display SEM to give a sense of the variance across neurons. We have provided sample traces of individual neurons to better demonstrate the variability and significance of this data (Figure S2).

      (9) Figure 2C:

      The representative staining images appear to be taken from coronal slices at anatomically different positions along the rostral-to-caudal axis. Although the total numbers of TH+ cells are comparable between vehicle and CNO groups in the graph, the sample images do not reflect this result. The authors should replace the current images with the better ones.

      We have replaced this image in the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor concerns:

      (1) The authors claim that their transcriptomics experiments are conducted 'before any degeneration has occurred'. And they do not see significant differences in the TH expression in the striatum. However, the n for these mice at 1 week is lower than the n use at 2 weeks (n=5 vs n=8-9) and the images used to show 'no degeneration' really look like there is some degeneration going on. Also, throughout the paper, there is a stronger effect when degeneration is measured with mCherry compared to when it is measured with TH. The 'no change' claim is made only with the TH comparison. It seems possible (and almost likely) that there would be significant axonal degeneration at one week with either a higher sample size or using the mCherry comparison. The authors should simply claim that their transcriptomics data is collected before any 'somatic' degeneration occurs.

      Thank you, we have included data that shows partial terminal loss after one week of activation (Figure S3B, Figure S5A) and have corrected this language in the manuscript to reflect transcriptomics occurring before somatic degeneration.

      (2) While selective degeneration is one of the most interesting findings in the paper, that finding is not emphasized and why it would be interesting to compare the VTA vs SNc is not discussed in the introduction.

      Emphasis for comparing the VTA vs the SNc has been added to the introduction, along with additional electrophysiology data in VTA dopamine neurons in Figure 1 and Figure S2.

      (3) In a similar direction, the vulnerability of dopaminergic neurons has been shown to be differential even within the SNc, with the ventral tier neurons degenerating more severely and the dorsal tier neurons remaining resilient. Is there any evidence for a ventral-dorsal degeneration gradient in the SNc in these experiments?

      This is a really interesting point and changes to dopamine neuron subtypes along the ventraldorsal axis may be occurring in this model, particularly as there is more selective loss of SNc neurons. However, the cell type involved would be difficult to determine at this stage, since single cell transcriptomic resolution is necessary across the entire SNc to identify cell subtypes. Transcriptomic identification is further complicated given that transcriptome change has recently been shown with genetic manipulation (Gaertner et al., bioRxiv 2024, PMID: 38895448), and we would think could similarly change with increased activity. Assessing these issues are beyond the scope of this paper.

      (4) The running data is very interesting and the circadian rhythm alterations are compelling.

      However, it is unclear whether the CNO mice run more total compared with the vehicle mice.

      The authors should show the combined total running data to evaluate this. We now show total running data in Figure 1C.

      (5) The finding that acute CNO has no effect on the membrane potential of SNc neurons after chronic CNO exposure is very peculiar! Especially because the fiber photometry data suggests that CNO continues to have an effect in vivo. Is there any explanation for this?

      While there is no acute electrophysiological response to CNO detected in this group, there may be intracellular pathways activated by the DREADD that do not acutely impact membrane potential in current clamp (I = 0 pA) mode.

      (6) The terminology of chronic CNO is sometimes confusing as it refers to both 2-week and 4week administration. Using additional terminology such as 'early' and 'late' might help with clarity.

      We have decreased usage of ‘chronic,’ and increased usage of more specific treatment times in order to increase clarity throughout the manuscript.

      (7) In Figure 2C, the SNc image looks binarized.

      This image has been updated.

      (8) Also in Figure 2, why are TH and mCherry measured for the 4-week time point, but only TH measured for the 2-week time point?

      mCherry quantification was performed to further support the finding of DA neuron death, and was therefore not assessed at 2 weeks given that there was no change in the TH stereology.

      (9) Additional scale bars and labeling is needed in Figure 3. In addition, there is such a strong reduction in noise after chronic CNO in the fiber photometry recordings, and the noise does not return upon CNO washout. What is the explanation for this?

      Additional scale bars were added to Figure 3. Traces are not getting less noisy with chronic CNO treatment, rather, there is less bursting activity in the dopamine cells. Our interpretation is that the baseline activity is rescued during washout but this bursting activity is not.

      (10) While not necessary to support the claims in this paper, it would be very interesting to see if chronic inhibition of dopaminergic neurons had a similar or different effect, as too little dopaminergic activity may also cause degeneration in some cases.

      We agree that assessing chronic inhibition is valuable, and this is an important area for future research.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      All the mice used in the study are not listed in the methods section. For example, the GCaMP6f floxed mice discussed in the results section are not listed in the methods. Also, the breeding scheme used for the different mouse lines needs to be described. For example, did the DAT-Cre mice carry one or two alleles?

      Both the DAT<sup>IRES</sup>Cre and GCaMP6f floxed (Ai148) Jax mouse line numbers and RRIDs are included in the methods. DAT<sup>IRES</sup>Cre mice carried two alleles.

      In the methods section, the amount of virus injected needs to be mentioned.

      This information has been added to the methods section.

      In all result graphs, please include the individual data points so that the readers can see the distribution of the data and quickly see the sample size.

      Graphs have been updated to include all individual data points. For line graphs, the distribution is communicated by the error bars, while the n is in the legends.

      The authors provide running wheel data in supplementary figure 1A to validate that chemogenetic activation of dopamine neurons leads to increased locomotor activity. The results shown in the figure appear to be qualitative as no average data is presented. The authors should provide average data from all mice tested.

      Average IP response data for all mice assessed for running wheel activity has been included in Figure S1.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment 

      fMRI was used to address an important aspect of human cognition - the capacity for structured representations and symbolic processing - in a cross-species comparison with non-human primates (macaques); the experimental design probed implicit symbolic processing through reversal of learned stimulus pairs. The authors present solid evidence in humans that helps elucidate the role of brain networks in symbolic processing, however the evidence from macaques was incomplete (e.g., sample size constraints, potential and hard-to-quantify differences in attention allocation, motivation, and lived experience between species).

      Thank you very much for your assessment. We would like to address the potential issues that you raise point-by-point below.

      We agree that for macaque monkey physiology, sample size is always a constraint, due to both financial and ethical reasons. We addressed this concern by combining the results from two different labs, which allowed us to test 4 animals in total, which is twice as much as what is common practice in the field of primate physiology. (We discuss this now on lines 473-478.)

      Interspecies differences in motivation, attention allocation, task strategies etc. could also be limiting factors. Note that we did address the potential lack of attention allocation directly in Experiment 2 using implicit reward association, which was successful as evidenced by the activation of attentional control areas in the prefrontal cortex. We cannot guarantee that the strategies that the two species deploy are identical, but we tentatively suggest that this might be a less important factor in the present study than in other interspecies comparisons that use explicit behavioral reports. In the current study, we directly measured surprise responses in the brain in the absence of any explicit instructions in either species, which allowed us to  measure the spontaneous reversal of learned associations, which is a very basic element of symbolic representation. Our reasoning is that such spontaneous responses should be less dependent on attention allocation and task strategies. (We discuss this now in more detail on lines 478-485.)

      Finally, lived experience could be a major factor. Indeed, obvious differences include a lifetime of open-field experiences and education in our human adult subjects, which was not available to the monkey subjects, and includes a strong bias towards explicit learning of symbolic systems (e.g. words, letters, digits, etc). However, we have previously shown that 5-month-old human infants spontaneously generalize learning to the reversed pairs after a short learning in the lab using EEG (Kabdebon et al, PNAS, 2019). This indicates that also with very limited experience, humans spontaneously reverse learned associations. (We discuss this now in more detail on lines 478-485.) It could be very interesting to investigate whether spontaneous reversal could be present in infant macaque monkeys, as there might be a critical period for this effect. Although neurophysiology in awake infant monkeys is highly challenging, it would be very relevant for future work. (We discuss this in more detail on lines 493-498.)

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Kerkoerle and colleagues present a very interesting comparative fMRI study in humans and monkeys, assessing neural responses to surprise reactions at the reversal of a previously learned association. The implicit nature of this task, assessing how this information is represented without requiring explicit decision-making, is an elegant design. The paper reports that both humans and monkeys show neural responses across a range of areas when presented with incongruous stimulus pairs. Monkeys also show a surprise response when the stimuli are presented in a reversed direction. However, humans show no such surprise response based on this reversal, suggesting that they encode the relationship reversibly and bidirectionally, unlike the monkeys. This has been suggested as a hallmark of symbolic representation, that might be absent in nonhuman animals. 

      I find this experiment and the results quite compelling, and the data do support the hypothesis that humans are somewhat unique in their tendency to form reversible, symbolic associations. I think that an important strength of the results is that the critical finding is the presence of an interaction between congruity and canonicity in macaques, which does not appear in humans. These results go a long way to allay concerns I have about the comparison of many human participants to a very small number of macaques. 

      We thank the reviewer for the positive assessment. We also very much appreciate the point about the interaction effect in macaque monkeys – indeed, we do not report just a negative finding. 

      I understand the impossibility of testing 30+ macaques in an fMRI experiment. However, I think it is important to note that differences necessarily arise in the analysis of such datasets. The authors report that they use '...identical training, stimuli, and whole-brain fMRI measures'. However, the monkeys (in experiment 1) actually required 10 times more training. 

      We agree that this description was imprecise. We have changed it to “identical training stimuli” (line 151), indeed the movies used for training were strictly identical. Furthermore, please note that we do report the fMRI results after the same training duration. In experiment 1, after 3 days of training, the monkeys did not show any significant results, even in the canonical direction. However, in experiment 2, with increased attention and motivation, a significant effect was observed on the first day of scanning after training, as was found in human subjects (see Figure 4 and Table 3).

      More importantly, while the fMRI measures are the same, group analysis over 30+ individuals is inherently different from comparing only 2 macaques (including smoothing and averaging away individual differences that might be more present in the monkeys, due to the much smaller sample size). 

      Thank you for understanding that a limited sampling size is intrinsic to macaque monkey physiology. We also agree that data analysis in humans and monkeys is necessarily different. As suggested by the reviewer, we added an analysis to address this, see the corresponding reply to the ‘Recommendations for the authors’ section below.

      Despite this, the results do appear to show that macaques show the predicted interaction effect (even despite the sample size), while humans do not. I think this is quite convincing, although had the results turned out differently (for example an effect in humans that was absent in macaques), I think this difference in sample size would be considerably more concerning. 

      Thank you for noting this. Indeed, the interaction effect is crucial, and the task design was explicitly made to test this precise prediction, described in our manuscript as the “reversibility hypothesis”. The congruity effect in the learned direction served as a control for learning, while the corresponding congruity effect in the reversed direction tested for spontaneous reversal. The reversibility hypothesis stipulates that in humans there should not be a difference between the learned and the reversed direction, while there should be for monkeys. We already wrote about that in the result section of the original manuscript and now also describe this more explicitly in the introduction and beginning of the result section.

      I would also note that while I agree with the authors' conclusions, it is notable to me that the congruity effect observed in humans (red vs blue lines in Fig. 2B) appears to be far more pronounced than any effect observed in the macaques (Fig. 3C-3). Again, this does not challenge the core finding of this paper but does suggest methodological or possibly motivational/attentional differences between the humans and the monkeys (or, for example, that the monkeys had learned the associations less strongly and clearly than the humans). 

      As also explained in response to the eLife assessment above, we expanded the “limitations” section of the discussion, with a deeper description of the possible methodological differences between the two species (see lines 478-485).

      With the same worry in mind, we did increase the attention and motivation of monkeys in experiment 2, and indeed obtained a greater activation to the canonical pairs and their violation, -notably in the prefrontal cortex – but crucially still without reversibility.

      In the end, we believe that the striking interspecies difference in size and extent of the violation effect, even for purely canonical stimuli, is an important part of our findings and points to a more efficient species-specific learning system, that our experiment tentatively relates to a symbolic competence.

      This is a strong paper with elegant methods and makes a worthwhile contribution to our understanding of the neural systems supporting symbolic representations in humans, as opposed to other animals. 

      We again thank the reviewer for the positive review.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      In their article titled "Brain mechanisms of reversible symbolic reference: a potential singularity of the human brain", van Kerkoerle et al address the timely question of whether non-human primates (rhesus macaques) possess the ability for reverse symbolic inference as observed in humans. Through an fMRI experiment in both humans and monkeys, they analyzed the bold signal in both species while observing audio-visual and visual-visual stimuli pairs that had been previously learned in a particular direction. Remarkably, the findings pertaining to humans revealed that a broad brain network exhibited increased activity in response to surprises occurring in both the learned and reverse directions. Conversely, in monkeys, the study uncovered that the brain activity within sensory areas only responded to the learned direction but failed to exhibit any discernible response to the reverse direction. These compelling results indicate that the capacity for reversible symbolic inference may be unique to humans. 

      In general, the manuscript is skillfully crafted and highly accessible to readers. The experimental design exhibits originality, and the analyses are tailored to effectively address the central question at hand.

      Although the first experiment raised a number of methodological inquiries, the subsequent second experiment thoroughly addresses these concerns and effectively replicates the initial findings, thereby significantly strengthening the overall study. Overall, this article is already of high quality and brings new insight into human cognition. 

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for the positive comments. 

      I identified three weaknesses in the manuscript: 

      - One major issue in the study is the absence of significant results in monkeys. Indeed, authors draw conclusions regarding the lack of significant difference in activity related to surprise in the multidemand network (MDN) in the reverse congruent versus reverse incongruent conditions. Although the results are convincing (especially with the significant interaction between congruency and canonicity), the article could be improved by including additional analyses in a priori ROI for the MDN in monkeys (as well as in humans, for comparison). 

      First, we disagree with the statement about “absence of significant results in monkeys”. We do report a significant interaction which, as noted by the referee, is a crucial positive finding.

      Second, we performed the suggested analysis for experiment 2, using the bilateral ROIs of the putative monkey MDN from previous literature (Mitchell, et al. 2016), which are based on the human study by Fedorenko et al. (PNAS, 2013). 

      Author response table 1.

      Congruity effect for monkeys in Experiment 2 within the ROIs of the MDN (n=3). Significance was assessed with one-sided one-sample t-tests.

      As can be seen, none of the regions within the monkey MDN showed an FDR-corrected significant difference or interaction. Although the absence of a canonical congruity effect makes it difficult to draw strong conclusions, it did approach significance at an uncorrected level in the lateral frontal posterior region, similar to  the large prefrontal effect we report in Figures 4 and 5. Furthermore, for the reversed congruity effect there was never even a trend at the uncorrected level, and the crucial interaction of canonicity and congruity again approached significance in the lateral prefrontal cortex.  

      We also performed an ANOVA  in the human participants of the VV experiment on the average betas across the 7 different fronto-parietal ROIs as used by Mitchell et al to define their equivalent to the monkey brain (Fig 1a, right in Mitchell et al. 2016) with congruity, canonicity and hemisphere (except for the anterior cingulate which is a bilateral ROI) as within-subject factors. We confirmed the results presented in the manuscript (Figure 4C) with notably no significant interaction between congruity and canonicity in any of these ROIs (all F-values (except insula) <1). A significant main effect of congruity was observed in the posterior middle frontal gyrus (MFG) and inferior precentral sulcus at the FDR corrected level. Analyses restricted to the canonical trials found a congruity effect in these two regions plus the anterior insula and anterior cingulate/presupplementary motor area, whereas no ROIs were significant at a FDR corrected level for reverse trials. There was a trend in the middle MFG and inferior precentral region for reversed trials. Crucially, there was not even a trend for the interaction between congruity and canonicity at the uncorrected level. The difference in the effect size between the canonical and reversed direction can therefore be explained by the larger statistical power due to the larger number of congruent trials (70%, versus 10% for the other trial conditions), not by a significant effect by the canonical and the reversed direction. 

      Author response table 2.

      Congruity effect for humans in Experiment 2 within the ROIs of the MDN (n=23).

      These results support our contention that the type of learning of the stimulus pairs was very different in the two species. We thank the reviewer for suggesting these relevant additional analyses.

      - While the authors acknowledge in the discussion that the number of monkeys included in the study is considerably lower compared to humans, it would be informative to know the variability of the results among human participants. 

      We agree that this is an interesting question, although it is also very open-ended. For instance, we could report each subjects’ individual whole-brain results, but this would take too much space (and the interested reader will be able to do so from the data that we make available as part of this publication). As a step in this direction, we provide below a figure showing the individual congruity effects, separately for each experiment and for each ROI of table 5, and for each of the 52 participants for whom an fMRI localizer was available:

      Author response image 1.

      Difference in mean betas between congruent and incongruent conditions in a-priori linguistic and mathematical ROIs (see definition and analyses in Table 5) in both experiments (experiment 1 = AV, left panel; experiment 2= VV, right panel). Dots correspond to participants (red: canonical trials, green reversed trials).The boxplot notch is located at the median and the lower and upper box hinges at the 25th and 75th centiles. Whiskers extend to 1.5 inter-quartile ranges on either side of the hinges. ROIs are ranked by the median of the Incongruent-Congruent difference across canonical and reversed order, within a given experiment. For purposes of comparison between the two experiments, we have underlined with colors the top-five common ROIs between the two experiments. N.s.: non-significant congruity effect (p>0.05)

      Several regions show a rather consistent difference across subjects (see, for instance, the posterior STS in experiment 1, left panel). Overall, only 3 of the 52 participants did not show any beta superior to 2 in canonical or reversed in any ROIs. The consistency is quite striking, given the limited number of test trials (in total only 16 incongruent trials per direction per participant), and the fact that these ROIs were selected for their responses to spoken or written  sentences, as part of a subsidiary task quite different from the main task.

      - Some details are missing in the methods.  

      Thank you for these comments, we reply to them point-by-point below.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      This study investigates the hypothesis that humans (but not non-human primates) spontaneously learn reversible temporal associations (i.e., learning a B-A association after only being exposed to A-B sequences), which the authors consider to be a foundational property of symbolic cognition. To do so, they expose humans and macaques to 2-item sequences (in a visual-auditory experiment, pairs of images and spoken nonwords, and in a visual-visual experiment, pairs of images and abstract geometric shapes) in a fixed temporal order, then measure the brain response during a test phase to congruent vs. incongruent pairs (relative to the trained associations) in canonical vs. reversed order (relative to the presentation order used in training). The advantage of neuroimaging for this question is that it removes the need for a behavioral test, which non-human primates can fail for reasons unrelated to the cognitive construct being investigated. In humans, the researchers find statistically indistinguishable incongruity effects in both directions (supporting a spontaneous reversible association), whereas in monkeys they only find incongruity effects in the canonical direction (supporting an association but a lack of spontaneous reversal). Although the precise pattern of activation varies by experiment type (visual-auditory vs. visual-visual) in both species, the authors point out that some of the regions involved are also those that are most anatomically different between humans and other primates. The authors interpret their finding to support the hypothesis that reversible associations, and by extension symbolic cognition, is uniquely human. 

      This study is a valuable complement to prior behavioral work on this question. However, I have some concerns about methods and framing. 

      We thank the reviewer for the careful summary of the manuscript, and the positive comments.

      Methods - Design issues: 

      The authors originally planned to use the same training/testing protocol for both species but the monkeys did not learn anything, so they dramatically increased the amount of training and evaluation. By my calculation from the methods section, humans were trained on 96 trials and tested on 176, whereas the monkeys got an additional 3,840 training trials and 1,408 testing trials. The authors are explicit that they continued training the monkeys until they got a congruity effect. On the one hand, it is commendable that they are honest about this in their write-up, given that this detail could easily be framed as deliberate after the fact. On the other hand, it is still a form of p-hacking, given that it's critical for their result that the monkeys learn the canonical association (otherwise, the critical comparison to the non-canonical association is meaningless). 

      Thank you for this comment. 

      Indeed, for experiment 1, the amount of training and testing was not equal for the humans and monkeys, as also mentioned by reviewer 2. We now describe in more detail how many training and imaging days we used for each experiment and each species, as well as the number of blocks per day and the number of trials per block (see lines 572-577). We also added the information on the amount of training receives to all of the legends of the Tables.

      We are sorry for giving the impression that we trained until the monkeys learned this. This was not the case. Based on previous literature, we actually anticipated that the short training would not be sufficient, and therefore planned additional training in advance. Specifically, Meyer & Olson (2011) had observed pair learning in the inferior temporal cortex of macaque monkeys after 816 exposures per pair. This is similar to the additional training we gave, about 80 blocks with 12 trials per pair per block. This is  now explained in more detail (lines 577-580).

      Furthermore, we strongly disagree with the pejorative term p-hacking. The aim of the experiment was not to show a congruency effect in the canonical direction in monkeys, but to track and compare their behavior in the same paradigm as that of humans for the reverse direction. It would have been unwise to stop after human-identical training and only show that humans learn better, which is a given. Instead, we looked at brain activations at both times, at the end of human-identical training and when the monkeys had learned the pairs in the canonical direction. 

      Finally, in experiment 2, monkeys were tested after the same 3 days of training as humans. We wrote: “Using this design, we obtained significant canonical congruity effects in monkeys on the first imaging day after the initial training (24 trials per pair), indicating that the animals had learned the associations” (lines 252-253).

      (2) Between-species comparisons are challenging. In addition to having differences in their DNA, human participants have spent many years living in a very different culture than that of NHPs, including years of formal education. As a result, attributing the observed differences to biology is challenging. One approach that has been adopted in some past studies is to examine either young children or adults from cultures that don't have formal educational structures. This is not the approach the authors take. This major confound needs to minimally be explicitly acknowledged up front. 

      Thank you for raising this important point. We already had a section on “limitations” in the manuscript, which we now extended (line 478-485). Indeed, this study is following a previous study in 5-month-old infants using EEG, in which we already showed that after learning associations between labels and categories, infants spontaneously generalize learning to the reversed pairs after a short learning period in the lab (Kabdebon et al, PNAS, 2019). We also cited preliminary results of the same paradigm as used in the current study but using EEG in 4-month-old infants (Ekramnia and Dehaene-Lambertz, 2019), where we replicated the results obtained by Kabdebon et al. 2019 showing that preverbal infants spontaneously generalize learning to the reversed pairs. 

      Functional MRI in awake infants remains a challenge at this age (but see our own work, DehaeneLambertz et al, Science, 2002), especially because the experimental design means only a few trials in the conditions of interest (10%) and thus a long experimental duration that exceed infants’ quietness and attentional capacities in the noisy MRI environment. (We discuss this on lines 493-496.)

      (3) Humans have big advantages in processing and discriminating spoken stimuli and associating them with visual stimuli (after all, this is what words are in spoken human languages). Experiment 2 ameliorates these concerns to some degree, but still, it is difficult to attribute the failure of NHPs to show reversible associations in Experiment 1 to cognitive differences rather than the relative importance of sound string to meaning associations in the human vs. NHP experiences. 

      As the reviewer wrote, we deliberately performed Experiment 2 with visual shapes to control for various factors that might have explained the monkeys' failure in Experiment 1. 

      (4) More minor: The localizer task (math sentences vs. other sentences) makes sense for math but seems to make less sense for language: why would a language region respond more to sentences that don't describe math vs. ones that do? 

      The referee is correct: our use of the word “reciprocally” was improper (although see Amalric et Dehaene, 2016 for significant differences in both directions when non-mathematical sentences concern specific knowledge). We changed the formulation to clarify this as follows: “In these ROIs, we recovered the subject-specific coordinates of each participant’s 10% best voxels in the following comparisons: sentences vs rest for the 6 language Rois ; reading vs listening for the VWFA ; and numerical vs non-numerical sentences for the 8 mathematical ROIs.” (lines 678-680).

      Methods - Analysis issues: 

      (5) The analyses appear to "double dip" by using the same data to define the clusters and to statistically test the average cluster activation (Kriegeskorte et al., 2009). The resulting effect sizes are therefore likely inflated, and the p-values are anticonservative. 

      It is not clear to us which result the reviewer is referring to. In Tables 1-4, we report the values that we found significant in the whole brain analysis, we do not report additional statistical tests for this data. For Table 5, the subject-specific voxels were identified through a separate localizer experiment, which was designed to pinpoint the precise activation areas for each subject in the domains of oral and written language-processing and math. Subsequently, we compared the activation at these voxel locations across different conditions of the main experiment. Thus, the two datasets were distinct, and there was no double dipping. In both interpretations of the comment, we therefore disagree with the reviewer.

      Framing: 

      (6) The framing ("Brain mechanisms of reversible symbolic reference: A potential singularity of the human brain") is bigger than the finding (monkeys don't spontaneously reverse a temporal association but humans do). The title and discussion are full of buzzy terms ("brain mechanisms", "symbolic", and "singularity") that are only connected to the experiments by a debatable chain of assumptions. 

      First, this study shows relatively little about brain "mechanisms" of reversible symbolic associations, which implies insights into how these associations are learned, recognized, and represented. But we're only given standard fMRI analyses that are quite inconsistent across similar experimental paradigms, with purely suggestive connections between these spatial patterns and prior work on comparative brain anatomy. 

      We agree with the referee that the term “mechanism” is ambiguous and, for systems neuroscientists, may suggest more than we are able to do here with functional MRI. We changed the title to “Brain areas for reversible symbolic reference, a potential singularity of the human brain”. This title better describes our specific contribution: mapping out the areas involved in reversibility in humans, and showing that they do not seem to respond similarly in macaque monkeys.

      Second, it's not clear what the relationship is between symbolic cognition and a propensity to spontaneously reverse a temporal association. Certainly, if there are inter-species differences in learning preferences this is important to know about, but why is this construed as a difference in the presence or absence of symbols? Because the associations aren't used in any downstream computation, there is not even any way for participants to know which is the sign and which is the signified: these are merely labels imposed by the researchers on a sequential task. 

      As explained in the introduction, the reversibility test addressed a very minimal core property of symbolic reference. There cannot be a symbol if its attachment doesn’t operate in both directions. Thus, this property is necessary – but we agree that it is not sufficient. Indeed, more tests are needed to establish whether and how the learned symbols are used in further downstream compositional tasks (as discussed in our recent TICS papers, Dehaene et al. 2022). We added a sentence in the introduction to acknowledge this fact:

      “Such reversibility is a core and necessary property of symbols, although we readily acknowledge that it is not sufficient, since genuine symbols present additional referential and compositional properties that will not be tested in the present work.” (lines 89-92).

      Third, the word "singularity" is both problematically ambiguous and not well supported by the results. "Singularity" is a highly loaded word that the authors are simply using to mean "that which is uniquely human". Rather than picking a term with diverse technical meanings across fields and then trying to restrict the definition, it would be better to use a different term. Furthermore, even under the stated definition, this study performed a single pairwise comparison between humans and one other species (macaques), so it is a stretch to then conclude (or insinuate) that the "singularity" has been found (see also pt. 2 above). 

      We have published an extensive review including a description of our use of the term “singularity” (Dehaene et al., TICS 2022). Here is a short except: “Humans are different even in domains such as drawing and geometry that do not involve communicative language. We refer to this observation using the term “human cognitive singularity”, the word singularity being used here in its standard meaning (the condition of being singular) as well as its mathematical sense (a point of sudden change). Hominization was certainly a singularity in biological evolution, so much so that it opened up a new geological age (the Anthropocene). Even if evolution works by small continuous change (and sometimes it doesn’t [4]), it led to a drastic cognitive change in humans.”

      We find the referee’s use of the pejorative term ”insinuate” quite inappropriate. From the title on, we are quite nuanced and refer only to a “potential singularity”. Furthermore, as noted above, we explicitly mention in the discussion the limitations of our study, and in particular the fact that only a single non-human species was tested (see lines 486-493). We are working hard to get chimpanzee data, but this is remarkably difficult for us, and we hope that our paper will incite other groups to collect more evidence on this point.

      (7) Related to pt. 6, there is circularity in the framing whereby the authors say they are setting out to find out what is uniquely human, hypothesizing that the uniquely human thing is symbols, and then selecting a defining trait of symbols (spontaneous reversible association) *because* it seems to be uniquely human (see e.g., "Several studies previously found behavioral evidence for a uniquely human ability to spontaneously reverse a learned association (Imai et al., 2021; Kojima, 1984; Lipkens et al., 1988; Medam et al., 2016; Sidman et al., 1982), and such reversibility was therefore proposed as a defining feature of symbol representation reference (Deacon, 1998; Kabdebon and DehaeneLambertz, 2019; Nieder, 2009).", line 335). They can't have it both ways. Either "symbol" is an independently motivated construct whose presence can be independently tested in humans and other species, or it is by fiat synonymous with the "singularity". This circularity can be broken by a more modest framing that focuses on the core research question (e.g., "What is uniquely human? One possibility is spontaneous reversal of temporal associations.") and then connects (speculatively) to the bigger conceptual landscape in the discussion ("Spontaneous reversal of temporal associations may be a core ability underlying the acquisition of mental symbols").

      We fail to understand the putative circularity that the referee sees in our introduction. We urge him/her to re-read it, and hope that, with the changes that we introduced, it does boil down to his/her summary, i.e. “What is uniquely human? One possibility is spontaneous reversal of temporal associations."

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      In general, the manuscript was very clear, easy to read, and compelling. I would recommend the authors carefully check the text for consistency and minor typos. For example: 

      The sample size for the monkeys kept changing throughout the paper. E.g., Experiment 1: n = 2 (line 149); n = 3 (line 205).  

      Thank you for catching this error, we corrected it. The number of animals was indeed 2  for experiment 1, and 3 for experiment 2. (Animals JD and YS participated in experiment 1 and JD, JC and DN in experiment 2. So only JD participated in both experiments.)

      Similarly, the number of stimulus pairs is reported inconsistently (4 on line 149, 5 pairs later in the paper). 

      We’re sorry that this was unclear. We used 5 sets of 4 audio-visual pairs each. We now clarify this, on line 157 and on lines 514-516.

      At least one case of p>0.0001, rather than p < 0.0001 (I assume). 

      Thank you once again, we now corrected this.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      One major issue in the study is the absence of significant results in monkeys. Indeed, the authors draw conclusions regarding the lack of significant difference in activity related to surprise in the multidemand network (MDN) in the reverse congruent versus reverse incongruent conditions. Although the results are convincing (especially with the significant interaction between congruency and canonicity), the article could be improved by including additional analyses in a priori ROI for the MDN in monkeys (as well as in humans, for comparison). In other words: what are the statistics for the MDN regarding congruity, canonicity, and interaction in both species? Since the authors have already performed this type of analysis for language and Math ROIs (table 5), it should be relatively easy for them to extend it to the MDN. Demonstrating that results in monkeys are far from significant could further convince the reader. 

      Furthermore, while the authors acknowledge in the discussion that the number of monkeys included in the study is considerably lower compared to humans, it would be informative to know the variability of the results among human participants. Specifically, it would be valuable to describe the proportion of human participants in which the effects of congruency, canonicity, and their interaction are significant. Additionally, stating the variability of the F-values for each effect would provide reassurance to the reader regarding the distinctiveness of humans in comparison to monkeys. Low variability in the results would serve to mitigate concerns that the observed disparity is merely a consequence of testing a unique subset of monkeys, which may differ from the general population. Indeed, this would be a greater support to the notion that the dissimilarity stems from a genuine distinction between the two species. 

      We responded to both of these points above.

      In terms of methods, details are missing: 

      - How many trials of each condition are there exactly? (10% of 44 trials is 4.4) : 

      We wrote: “In both humans and monkeys, each block started with 4 trials in the learned direction (congruent canonical trials), one trial for each of the 4 pairs (2 O-L and 2 L-O pairs). The rest of the block consisted of 40 trials in which 70% of trials were identical to the training; 10% were incongruent pairs but the direction (O-L or L-O) was correct (incongruent canonical trials), thus testing whether the association was learned; 10% were congruent pairs but the direction within the pairs was reversed relative to the learned pairs (congruent reversed trials) and 10% were incongruent pairs in reverse (incongruent reversed trials).”(See lines 596-600.)

      Thus, each block comprised 4 initial trials, 28 canonical congruent trials, 4 canonical incongruent, 4 reverse congruent and 4 reverse incongruent trials, i.e. 4+28+3x4=40 trials.

      - How long is one trial? 

      As written in the method section: “In each trial, the first stimulus (label or object) was presented during 700ms, followed by an inter-stimulus-interval of 100ms then the second stimulus during 700ms. The pairs were separated by a variable inter-trial-interval of 3-5 seconds” i.e. 700+100+700=1500, plus 3 to 4.75 seconds of blank between the trials (see lines 531-533).

      - How are the stimulus presentations jittered? 

      See : “The pairs were separated by a variable inter-trial-interval randomly chosen among eight different durations between 3 and 4.75 seconds (step=250 ms). The series of 8 intervals was randomized again each time it was completed.”(lines 533-535).

      - What is the statistical power achieved for humans? And for monkeys? 

      We know of no standard way to define power for fMRI experiments. Power will depend on so many parameters, including the fMRI signal-to-noise ratio, the attention of the subject, the areas being considered, the type of analysis (whole-brain versus ROIs), etc.

      - Videos are mentioned in the methods, is it the image and sound? It is not clear. 

      We’re sorry that it was unclear. Video’s were only used for the training of the human subjects. We now corrected this in the method section (lines 552-554).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      The main recommendations are to adjust the framing (making it less bold and more connected to the empirical evidence) and to ensure independence in the statistical analyses of the fMRI data. 

      See our replies to the reviewer’s comments on “Framing” above. In particular, we changed the title of the paper from “Brain mechanisms of reversible symbolic reference” to “Brain areas for reversible symbolic reference”.

      References cited in this response

      Dehaene, S., Al Roumi, F., Lakretz, Y., Planton, S., & Sablé-Meyer, M. (2022). Symbols and mental programs : A hypothesis about human singularity. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 26(9), 751‑766. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tics.2022.06.010.

      Dehaene-Lambertz, Ghislaine, Stanislas Dehaene, et Lucie Hertz-Pannier. Functional Neuroimaging of Speech Perception in Infants. Science 298, no 5600 (2002): 2013-15. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1077066.

      Ekramnia M, Dehaene-Lambertz G. 2019. Investigating bidirectionality of associations in young infants as an approach to the symbolic system. Presented at the CogSci. p. 3449.

      Fedorenko E, Duncan J, Kanwisher N (2013) Broad domain generality in focal regions of frontal and parietal cortex. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 110:16616-16621.

      Kabdebon, Claire, et Ghislaine Dehaene-Lambertz. « Symbolic Labeling in 5-Month-Old Human Infants ». Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 116, no 12 (2019): 5805-10. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1809144116.

      Mitchell, D. J., Bell, A. H., Buckley, M. J., Mitchell, A. S., Sallet, J., & Duncan, J. (2016). A Putative Multiple-Demand System in the Macaque Brain. Journal of Neuroscience, 36(33), 8574‑8585. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.0810-16.2016

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Lines 40-42: The sentence "The coupling of structural connectome (SC) and functional connectome (FC) varies greatly across different cortical regions reflecting anatomical and functional hierarchies as well as individual differences in cognitive function, and is regulated by genes" is a misstatement. Regional variations of structure-function coupling do not really reflect differences in cognitive function among individuals, but inter-subject variations do.

      Thank you for your comment. We have made revisions to the sentence to correct its misstatement. Please see lines 40-43: “The coupling of structural connectome (SC) and functional connectome (FC) varies greatly across different cortical regions reflecting anatomical and functional hierarchies[1, 6-9] and is regulated by genes[6, 8], as well as its individual differences relates to cognitive function[8, 9].”

      (2) In Figure 1, the graph showing the relation between intensity and cortical depth needs explanation.

      Thank you for your comment. We have added necessary explanation, please see lines 133-134: “The MPC was used to map similarity networks of intracortical microstructure (voxel intensity sampled in different cortical depth) for each cortical node.”

      (3) Line 167: Change "increased" to "increase".

      We have corrected it, please see lines 173-174: “…networks significantly increased with age and exhibited greater increase.”

      (4) Line 195: Remove "were".

      We have corrected it, please see line 204: “…default mode networks significantly contributed to the prediction…”

      (5) Lines 233-240, Reproducibility analyses: Comparisons of parcellation templates were not made with respect to gene weights. Is there any particular reason?

      Thank you for your comment. We have quantified the gene weights based on HCPMMP using the same procedures. We identified a correlation (r \= 0.25, p<0.001) between the gene weights in HCPMMP and BNA. Given that this is a relatively weak correlation, we need to clarify the following points.

      Based on HCPMMP, we produced an averaged gene expression profile for 10,027 genes covering 176 left cortical regions[1]. The excluding 4 cortical regions that had an insufficient number of assigned samples may lead to different templates having a relatively weak correlation of gene associations. Moreover, the effect of different template resolutions on the results of human connectome-transcriptome association is still unclear.

      In brain connectome analysis, the choice of parcellation templates can indeed influence the subsequent findings to some extent. A methodological study[2] provided referenced correlations about 0.4~0.6 for white matter connectivity and 0.2~0.4 for white matter nodal property between two templates (refer to Figure 4 and 5 in [2]). Therefore, the age-related coupling changes as a downstream analysis was calculated using multimodal connectome and correlated with gene expression profiles, which may be influenced by the choice of templates. 

      We have further supplemented gene weights results obtained from HCPMMP to explicitly clarify the dependency of parcellation templates.

      Please see lines 251-252: “The gene weights of HCPMMP was consistent with that of BNA (r = 0.25, p < 0.001).”

      Author response image 1.

      The consistency of gene weights between HCPMMP and BNA.

      Please see lines 601-604: “Finally, we produced an averaged gene expression profile for 10,027 genes covering 176 left cortical regions based on HCPMMP and obtained the gene weights by PLS analysis. We performed Pearson's correlation analyses to assess the consistency of gene weights between HCPMMP and BNA.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Your paper is interesting to read and I found your efforts to evaluate the robustness of the results of different parcellation strategies and tractography methods very valuable. The work is globally easy to navigate and well written with informative good-quality figures, although I think some additional clarifications will be useful to improve readability. My suggestions and questions are detailed below (I aimed to group them by topic which did not always succeed so apologies if the comments are difficult to navigate, but I hope they will be useful for reflection and to incorporate in your work).

      * L34: 'developmental disorder'

      ** As far as I understand, the subjects in HCP-D are mostly healthy (L87). Thus, while your study provides interesting insights into typical brain development, I wonder if references to 'disorder' might be premature. In the future, it would be interesting to extend your approach to the atypical populations. In any case, it would be extremely helpful and appreciated if you included a figure visualising the distribution of behavioural scores within your population and in relationship to age at scan for your subjects (and to include a more detailed description of the assessment in the methods section) given that large part of your paper focuses on their prediction using coupling inputs (especially given a large drop of predictive performance after age correction). Such figures would allow the reader to better understand the cognitive variability within your data, but also potential age relationships, and generally give a better overview of your cohort.

      We agree with your comment that references to 'disorder' is premature. We have made revisions in abstract and conclusion. 

      Please see lines 33-34: “This study offers insight into the maturational principles of SC-FC coupling in typical development.”

      Please see lines 395-396: “Further investigations are needed to fully explore the clinical implications of SC-FC coupling for a range of developmental disorders.”

      In addition, we have included a more detailed description of the cognitive scores in the methods section and provided a figure to visualize the distributions of cognitive scores and in relationship to age for subjects. Please see lines 407-413: “Cognitive scores. We included 11 cognitive scores which were assessed with the National Institutes of Health (NIH) Toolbox Cognition Battery (https://www.healthmeasures.net/exploremeasurement-systems/nih-toolbox), including episodic memory, executive function/cognitive flexibility, executive function/inhibition, language/reading decoding, processing speed, language/vocabulary comprehension, working memory, fluid intelligence composite score, crystal intelligence composite score, early child intelligence composite score and total intelligence composite score. Distributions of these cognitive scores and their relationship with age are illustrated in Figure S12.”

      Author response image 2.

      Cognitive scores and age distributions of scans.

      * SC-FC coupling

      ** L162: 'Regarding functional subnetworks, SC-FC coupling increased disproportionately with age (Figure 3C)'.

      *** As far as I understand, in Figure 3C, the points are the correlation with age for a given ROI within the subnetwork. Is this correct? If yes, I am not sure how this shows a disproportionate increase in coupling. It seems that there is great variability of SC-FC correlation with age across regions within subnetworks, more so than the differences between networks. This would suggest that the coupling with age is regionally dependent rather than network-dependent? Maybe you could clarify?

      The points are the correlation with age for a given ROI within the subnetwork in Figure 3C. We have revised the description, please see lines 168-174: “Age correlation coefficients distributed within functional subnetworks were shown in Figure 3C. Regarding mean SC-FC coupling within functional subnetworks, the somatomotor (𝛽𝑎𝑔𝑒\=2.39E-03, F=4.73, p\=3.10E-06, r\=0.25, p\=1.67E07, Figure 3E), dorsal attention (𝛽𝑎𝑔𝑒\=1.40E-03, F=4.63, p\=4.86E-06, r\=0.24, p\=2.91E-07, Figure 3F), frontoparietal (𝛽𝑎𝑔𝑒 =2.11E-03, F=6.46, p\=2.80E-10, r\=0.33, p\=1.64E-12, Figure 3I) and default mode (𝛽𝑎𝑔𝑒 =9.71E-04, F=2.90, p\=3.94E-03, r\=0.15, p\=1.19E-03, Figure 3J) networks significantly increased with age and exhibited greater increase.” In addition, we agree with your comment that the coupling with age is more likely region-dependent than network-dependent. We have added the description, please see lines 329-332: “We also found the SC-FC coupling with age across regions within subnetworks has more variability than the differences between networks, suggesting that the coupling with age is more likely region-dependent than network-dependent.” This is why our subsequent analysis focused on regional coupling.  

      *** Additionally, we see from Figure 3C that regions within networks have very different changes with age. Given this variability (especially in the subnetworks where you show both positive and negative correlations with age for specific ROIs (i.e. all of them)), does it make sense then to show mean coupling over regions within the subnetworks which erases the differences in coupling with age relationships across regions (Figures 3D-J)?

      Considering the interest and interpretation for SC-FC coupling, showing the mean coupling at subnetwork scales with age correlation is needed, although this eliminates variability at regional scale. These results at different scales confirmed that coupling changes with age at this age group are mainly increased.

      *** Also, I think it would be interesting to show correlation coefficients across all regions, not only the significant ones (3B). Is there a spatially related tendency of increases/decreases (rather than a 'network' relationship)? Would it be interesting to show a similar figure to Figure S7 instead of only the significant regions?

      As your comment, we have supplemented the graph which shows correlation coefficients across all regions into Figure 3B. Similarly, we supplemented to the other figures (Figure S3-S6).

      Author response image 3.

      Aged-related changes in SC-FC coupling. (A) Increases in whole-brain coupling with age. (B) Correlation of age with SC-FC coupling across all regions and significant regions (p<0.05, FDR corrected). (C) Comparisons of age-related changes in SC-FC coupling among functional networks. The boxes show the median and interquartile range (IQR; 25–75%), and the whiskers depict 1.5× IQR from the first or third quartile. (D-J) Correlation of age with SC-FC coupling across the VIS, SM, DA, VA, LIM, FP and DM. VIS, visual network; SM, somatomotor network; DA, dorsal attention network; VA, ventral attention network; LIM, limbic network; FP, frontoparietal network; DM, default mode network.

      *** For the quantification of MPC.

      **** L421: you reconstructed 14 cortical surfaces from the wm to pial surface. If we take the max thickness of the cortex to be 4.5mm (Fischl & Dale, 2000), the sampling is above the resolution of your anatomical images (0.8mm). Could you expand on what the interest is in sampling such a higher number of surfaces given that the resolution is not enough to provide additional information?

      The surface reconstruction was based on state-of-the-art equivolumetric surface construction techniques[3] which provides a simplified recapitulation of cellular changes across the putative laminar structure of the cortex. By referencing a 100-μm resolution Merkerstained 3D histological reconstruction of an entire post mortem human brain (BigBrain: https://bigbrain.loris.ca/main.php), a methodological study[4] systematically evaluated MPC stability with four to 30 intracortical surfaces when the resolution of anatomical image was 0.7 mm, and selected 14 surfaces as the most stable solution. Importantly, it has been proved the in vivo approach can serve as a lower resolution yet biologically meaningful extension of the histological work[4]. 

      **** L424: did you aggregate intensities over regions using mean/median or other statistics?

      It might be useful to specify.

      Thank you for your careful comment. We have revised the description in lines 446-447: “We averaged the intensity profiles of vertices over 210 cortical regions according to the BNA”.

      **** L426: personal curiosity, why did you decide to remove the negative correlation of the intensity profiles from the MPC? Although this is a common practice in functional analyses (where the interpretation of negatives is debated), within the context of cortical correlations, the negative values might be interesting and informative on the level of microstructural relationships across regions (if you want to remove negative signs it might be worth taking their absolute values instead).

      We agree with your comment that the interpretation of negative correlation is debated in MPC. Considering that MPC is a nascent approach to network modeling, we adopted a more conservative strategy that removing negative correlation by referring to the study [4] that proposed the approach. As your comment, the negative correlation might be informative. We will also continue to explore the intrinsic information on the negative correlation reflecting microstructural relationships.

      **** L465: could you please expand on the notion of self-connections, it is not completely evident what this refers to.

      We have revised the description in lines 493-494: “𝑁𝑐 is the number of connection (𝑁𝑐 = 245 for BNA)”.

      **** Paragraph starting on L467: did you evaluate the multicollinearities between communication models? It is possibly rather high (especially for the same models with similar parameters (listed on L440-444)). Such dependence between variables might affect the estimates of feature importance (given the predictive models only care to minimize error, highly correlated features can be selected as a strong predictor while the impact of other features with similarly strong relationships with the target is minimized thus impacting the identification of reliable 'predictors').

      We agree with your comment. The covariance structure (multicollinearities) among the communication models have a high probability to lead to unreliable predictor weights. In our study, we applied Haufe's inversion transform[5] which resolves this issue by computing the covariance between the predicted FC and each communication models in the training set. More details for Haufe's inversion transform please see [5]. We further clarified in the manuscript, please see in lines 497-499: “And covariance structure among the predictors may lead to unreliable predictor weights. Thus, we applied Haufe's inversion transform[38] to address these issues and identify reliable communication mechanisms.”

      **** L474: I am not completely familiar with spin tests but to my understanding, this is a spatial permutation test. I am not sure how this applies to the evaluation of the robustness of feature weight estimates per region (if this was performed per region), it would be useful to provide a bit more detail to make it clearer.

      As your comment, we have supplemented the detail, please see lines 503-507: “Next, we generated 1,000 FC permutations through a spin test[86] for each nodal prediction in each subject and obtained random distributions of model weights. These weights were averaged over the group and were investigated the enrichment of the highest weights per region to assess whether the number of highest weights across communication models was significantly larger than that in a random discovery.”

      **** L477: 'significant communication models were used to represent WMC...', but in L103 you mention you select 3 models: communicability, mean first passage, and flow graphs. Do you want to say that only 3 models were 'significant' and these were exactly the same across all regions (and data splits/ parcellation strategies/ tractography methods)? In the methods, you describe a lot of analysis and testing but it is not completely clear how you come to the selection of the final 3, it would be beneficial to clarify. Also, the final 3 were selected on the whole dataset first and then the pipeline of SC-FC coupling/age assessment/behaviour predictions was run for every (WD, S1, S2) for both parcellations schemes and tractography methods or did you end up with different sets each time? It would be good to make the pipeline and design choices, including the validation bit clearer (a figure detailing all the steps which extend Figure 1 would be very useful to understand the design/choices and how they relate to different runs of the validation).

      Thank you for your comment. In all reproducibility analyses, we used the same 3 models which was selected on the main pipeline (probabilistic tractography and BNA parcellation). According to your comment, we produced a figure that included the pipeline of model selection as the extend of Figure 1. And the description please see lines 106-108: “We used these three models to represent the extracortical connectivity properties in subsequent discovery and reproducibility analyses (Figure S1).” 

      Author response image 4.

      Pipeline of model selection and reproducibility analyses.

      **** Might the imbalance of features between structural connectivity and MPC affect the revealed SC-FC relationships (3 vs 1)? Why did you decide on this ratio rather than for example best WM structural descriptor + MPC?

      We understand your concern. The WMC communication models represent diverse geometric, topological, or dynamic factors. In order to describe the properties of WMC as best as possible, we selected three communication models after controlling covariance structure that can significantly predict FC from the 27 models. Compared to MPC, this does present a potential feature imbalance problem. However, this still supports the conclusion that coupling models that incorporate microarchitectural properties yield more accurate predictions of FC from SC[6, 7]. The relevant experiments are shown in Figure S2 below. If only the best WM structural descriptor is used, this may lose some communication properties of WMC.

      **** L515: were intracranial volume and in-scanner head motion related to behavioural measures? These variables likely impact the inputs, do you expect them to influence the outcome assessments? Or is there a mistake on L518 and you actually corrected the input features rather than the behaviour measures?

      The in-scanner head motion and intracranial volume are related to some age-adjusted behavioural measures, as shown in the following table. The process of regression of covariates from cognitive measures was based on these two cognitive prediction studies [8, 9]. Please see lines 549-554: “Prior to applying the nested fivefold cross-validation framework to each behaviour measure, we regressed out covariates including sex, intracranial volume, and in-scanner head motion from the behaviour measure[59, 69]. Specifically, we estimated the regression coefficients of the covariates using the training set and applied them to the testing set. This regression procedure was repeated for each fold.”

      Author response table 1.

      ** Additionally, in the paper, you propose that the incorporation of cortical microstructural (myelin-related) descriptors with white-matter connectivity to explain FC provides for 'a more comprehensive perspective for characterizing the development of SC-FC coupling' (L60). This combination of cortical and white-matter structure is indeed interesting, however the benefits of incorporating different descriptors could be studied further. For example, comparing results of using only the white matter connectivity (assessed through selected communication models) ~ FC vs (white matter + MPC) ~ FC vs MPC ~ FC. Which descriptors better explain FC? Are the 'coupling trends' similar (or the same)? If yes, what is the additional benefit of using the more complex combination? This would also add strength to your statement at L317: 'These discrepancies likely arise from differences in coupling methods, highlighting the complementarity of our methods with existing findings'. Yes, discrepancies might be explained by the use of different SC inputs. However, it is difficult to see how discrepancies highlight complementarity - does MCP (and combination with wm) provide additional information to using wm structural alone?~

      According to your comment, we have added the analyses based on different models using only the myelin-related predictor or WM connectivity to predict FC, and further compared the results among different models. please see lines 519-521: “In addition, we have constructed the models using only MPC or SCs to predict FC, respectively. Spearman’s correlation was used to assess the consistency between spatial patterns based on different models.” 

      Please see lines 128-130: “In addition, the coupling pattern based on other models (using only MPC or only SCs to predict FC) and the comparison between the models were shown in Figure S2A-C.” Please see lines 178-179: “The age-related patterns of SC-FC coupling based other coupling models were shown in Figure S2D-F.”

      Although we found that there were spatial consistencies in the coupling patterns between different models, the incorporation of MPC with SC connectivity can improve the prediction of FC than the models based on only MPC or SC. For age-related changes in coupling, the differences between the models was further amplified. We agree with you that the complementarity cannot be explicitly quantified and we have revised the description, please see line 329: “These discrepancies likely arise from differences in coupling methods.”

      Author response image 5.

      Comparison results between different models. Spatial pattern of mean SC-FC coupling based on MPC ~ FC (A), SCs ~ FC (B), and MPC + SCs ~ FC (C). Correlation of age with SC-FC coupling across cortex based on MPC ~ FC (D), SCs ~ FC (E), and MPC + SCs ~ FC (F).

      ** For the interpretation of results: L31 'SC-FC coupling is positively associated with genes in oligodendrocyte-related pathways and negatively associated with astrocyte-related gene'; L124: positive myelin content with SC-FC coupling...and similarly on L81, L219, L299, L342, and L490:

      ***You use a T1/T2 ratio which is (in large part) a measure of myelin to estimate the coupling between SC and FC. Evaluation with SC-FC coupling with myeline described in Figure 2E is possibly biased by the choice of this feature. Similarly, it is possible that reported positive associations with oligodendrocyte-related pathways and SC-FC coupling in your work could in part result from a bias introduced by the 'myelin descriptor' (conversely, picking up the oligodendrocyte-related genes is a nice corroboration for the T1/T2 ration being a myelin descriptor, so that's nice). However, it is possible that if you used a different descriptor of the cortical microstructure, you might find different expression patterns associated with the SCFC coupling (for example using neurite density index might pick up neuronal-related genes?). As mentioned in my previous suggestions, I think it would be of interest to first use only the white matter structural connectivity feature to assess coupling to FC and assess the gene expression in the cortical regions to see if the same genes are related, and subsequently incorporate MPC to dissociate potential bias of using a myelin measure from genetic findings.

      Thank you for your insightful comments. In this paper, however, the core method of measuring coupling is to predict functional connections using multimodal structural connections, which may yield more information than a single modal. We agree with your comment that separating SCs and MPC to look at the genes involved in both separately could lead to interesting discoveries. We will continue to explore this in the future.

      ** Generally, I find it difficult to understand the interpretation of SC-FC coupling measures and would be interested to hear your thinking about this. As you mention on L290-294, how well SC predicts FC depends on which input features are used for the coupling assessment (more complex communication models, incorporating additional microstructural information etc 'yield more accurate predictions of FC' L291) - thus, calculated coupling can be interpreted as a measure of how well a particular set of input features explain FC (different sets will explain FC more or less well) ~ coupling is related to a measure of 'missing' information on the SC-FC relationship which is not contained within the particular set of structural descriptors - with this approach, the goal might be to determine the set that best, i.e. completely, explains FC to understand the link between structure and function. When you use the coupling measures for comparisons with age, cognition prediction etc, the 'status' of the SC-FC changes, it is no longer the amount of FC explained by the given SC descriptor set, but it's considered a descriptor in itself (rather than an effect of feature selection / SC-FC information overlap) - how do you interpret/argue for this shift of use?

      Thank you for your comment. In this paper, we obtain reasonable SC-FC coupling by determining the optimal set of structural features to explain the function. The coupling essentially measures the direct correspondence between structure and function. To study the relationship between coupling and age and cognition is actually to study the age correlation and cognitive correlation of this direct correspondence between structure and function. 

      ** In a similar vein to the above comment, I am interested to hear what you think: on L305 you mention that 'perfect SC-FC coupling may be unlikely'. Would this reasoning suggest that functional activity takes place through other means than (and is therefore somehow independent of) biological (structural) substrates? For now, I think one can only say that we have imperfect descriptors of the structure so there is always information missing to explain function, this however does not mean the SC and FC are not perfectly coupled (only that we look at insufficient structural descriptors - limitations of what imaging can assess, what we measure etc). This is in line with L305 where you mention that 'Moreover, our results suggested that regional preferential contributions across different SCs lead to variations in the underlying communication process'. This suggests that locally different areas might use different communication models which are not reflected in the measures of SC-FC coupling that was employed, not that the 'coupling' is lower or higher (or coupling is not perfect). This is also a change in approach to L293: 'This configuration effectively releases the association cortex from strong structural constraints' - the 'release' might only be in light of the particular structural descriptors you use - is it conceivable that a different communication model would be more appropriate (and show high coupling) in these areas.

      Thank you for your insightful comments. We have changed the description, please see lines 315317: “SC-FC coupling is dynamic and changes throughout the lifespan[7], particularly during adolescence[6,9], suggesting that perfect SC-FC coupling may require sufficient structural descriptors.” 

      *Cognitive predictions:

      ** From a practical stand-point, do you think SC-FC coupling is a better (more accurate) indicator of cognitive outcomes (for example for future prediction studies) than each modality alone (which is practically easier to obtain and process)? It would be useful to check the behavioural outcome predictions for each modality separately (as suggested above for coupling estimates). In case SC-FC coupling does not outperform each modality separately, what is the benefit of using their coupling? Similarly, it would be useful to compare to using only cortical myelin for the prediction (which you showed to increase in importance for the coupling). In the case of myelin->coupling-> intelligence, if you are able to predict outcomes with the same performance from myelin without the need for coupling measures, what is the benefit of coupling?

      From a predictive performance point of view, we do not believe that SC-FC coupling is a better indicator than a single mode (voxel, network or other indicator). Our starting point is to assess whether SC-FC coupling is related to the individual differences of cognitive performances rather than to prove its predictive power over other measures. As you suggest, it's a very interesting perspective on the predictive power of cognition by separating the various modalities and comparing them. We will continue to explore this issue in the future study.

      ** The statement on L187 'suggesting that increased SC-FC coupling during development is associated with higher intelligence' might not be completely appropriate before age corrections (especially given the large drop in performance that suggests confounding effects of age).

      According to your comment, we have removed the statement.

      ** L188: it might be useful to report the range of R across the outer cross-validation folds as from Figure 4A it is not completely clear that the predictive performance is above the random (0) threshold. (For the sake of clarity, on L180 it might be useful for the reader if you directly report that other outcomes were not above the random threshold).

      According to your comment, we have added the range of R and revised the description, please see lines 195-198: “Furthermore, even after controlling for age, SC-FC coupling remained a significant predictor of general intelligence better than at chance (Pearson’s r\=0.11±0.04, p\=0.01, FDR corrected, Figure 4A). For fluid intelligence and crystal intelligence, the predictive performances of SC-FC coupling were not better than at chance (Figure 4A).”

      In a similar vein, in the text, you report Pearson's R for the predictive results but Figure 4A shows predictive accuracy - accuracy is a different (categorical) metric. It would be good to homogenise to clarify predictive results.

      We have made the corresponding changes in Figure 4.

      Author response image 6.

      Encoding individual differences in intelligence using regional SC-FC coupling. (A) Predictive accuracy of fluid, crystallized, and general intelligence composite scores. (B) Regional distribution of predictive weight. (C) Predictive contribution of functional networks. The boxes show the median and interquartile range (IQR; 25–75%), and the whiskers depict the 1.5× IQR from the first or third quartile.

      *Methods and QC:

      -Parcellations

      ** It would be useful to mention briefly how the BNA was applied to the data and if any quality checks were performed for the resulting parcellations, especially for the youngest subjects which might be most dissimilar to the population used to derive the atlas (healthy adults HCP subjects) ~ question of parcellation quality.

      We have added the description, please see lines 434-436: “The BNA[31] was projected on native space according to the official scripts (http://www.brainnetome.org/resource/) and the native BNA was checked by visual inspection.” 

      ** Additionally, the appropriateness of structurally defined regions for the functional analysis is also a topic of important debate. It might be useful to mention the above as limitations (which apply to most studies with similar focus).

      We have added your comment to the methodological issues, please see lines 378-379: “Third, the appropriateness of structurally defined regions for the functional analysis is also a topic of important debate.”

      - Tractography

      ** L432: it might be useful to name the method you used (probtrackx).

      We have added this name to the description, please see lines 455-456: “probabilistic tractography (probtrackx)[78, 79] was implemented in the FDT toolbox …”

      ** L434: 'dividing the total fibres number in source region' - dividing by what?

      We have revised the description, please see line 458: “dividing by the total fibres number in source region.”

      ** L436: 'connections in subcortical areas were removed' - why did you trace connections to subcortical areas in the first place if you then removed them (to match with cortical MPC areas I suspect)? Or do you mean there were spurious streamlines through subcortical regions that you filtered?

      On the one hand we need to match the MPC, and on the other hand, as we stated in methodological issues, the challenge of accurately resolving the connections of small structures within subcortical regions using whole-brain diffusion imaging and tractography techniques[10, 11]. 

      ** Following on the above, did you use any exclusion masks during the tracing? In general, more information about quality checks for the tractography would be useful. For example, L437: did you do any quality evaluations based on the removed spurious streamlines? For example, were there any trends between spurious streamlines and the age of the subject? Distance between regions/size of the regions?

      We did not use any exclusion masks. We performed visual inspection for the tractography quality and did not assess the relationship between spurious streamlines and age or distance between regions/size of the regions.

      ** L439: 'weighted probabilistic network' - this was weighted by the filtered connectivity densities or something else?

      The probabilistic network is weighted by the filtered connectivity densities.

      ** I appreciate the short description of the communication models in Text S1, it is very useful.

      Thank you for your comment.

      ** In addition to limitations mentioned in L368 - during reconstruction, have you noticed problems resolving short inter-hemispheric connections?

      We have not considered this issue, we have added it to the limitation, please see lines 383-384: “In addition, the reconstruction of short connections between hemispheres is a notable challenge.”

      - Functional analysis:

      ** There is a difference in acquisition times between participants below and above 8 years (21 vs 26 min), does the different length of acquisition affect the quality of the processed data?

      We have made relatively strict quality control to ensure the quality of the processed data.  

      ** L446 'regressed out nuisance variables' - it would be informative to describe in more detail what you used to perform this.

      We have provided more detail about the regression of nuisance variables, please see lines 476-477: “The nuisance variables were removed from time series based on general linear model.”

      ** L450-452: it would be useful to add the number of excluded participants to get an intuition for the overall quality of the functional data. Have you checked if the quality is associated with the age of the participant (which might be related to motion etc). Adding a distribution of remaining frames across participants (vs age) would be useful to see in the supplementary methods to better understand the data you are using.

      We have supplemented the exclusion information of the subjects during the data processing, and the distribution and aged correlation of motion and remaining frames. Please see lines 481-485: “Quality control. The exclusion of participants in the whole multimodal data processing pipeline was depicted in Figure S13. In the context of fMRI data, we computed Pearson’s correlation between motion and age, as well as between the number of remaining frames and age, for the included participants aged 5 to 22 years and 8 to 22 years, respectively. These correlations were presented in Figure S14.”

      Author response image 7.

      Exclusion of participants in the whole multimodal data processing pipeline.  

      Author response image 8.

      Figure S14. Correlations between motion and age and number of remaining frames and age.

      ** L454: 'Pearson's correlation's... ' In contrast to MPC you did not remove negative correlations in the functional matrices. Why this choice?

      Whether the negative correlation connection of functional signal is removed or not has always been a controversial issue. Referring to previous studies of SC-FC coupling[12-14], we find that the practice of retaining negative correlation connections has been widely used. In order to retain more information, we chose this strategy. Considering that MPC is a nascent approach to network modeling, we adopted a more conservative strategy that removing negative correlation by referring to the study [4] that proposed the approach.

      - Gene expression:

      ** L635, you focus on the left cortex, is this common? Do you expect the gene expression to be fully symmetric (given reported functional hemispheric asymmetries)? It might be good to expand on the reasoning.

      An important consideration regarding sample assignment arises from the fact that only two out of six brains were sampled from both hemispheres and four brains have samples collected only in the left. This sparse sampling should be carefully considered when combining data across donors[1]. We have supplemented the description, please see lines 569-571: “Restricting analyses to the left hemisphere will minimize variability across regions (and hemispheres) in terms of the number of samples available[40].”

      ** Paragraph of L537: you use evolution of coupling with age (correlation) and compare to gene expression with adults (cohort of Allen Human Brain Atlas - no temporal evolution to the gene expressions) and on L369 you mention that 'relative spatial patterns of gene expressions remain stable after birth'. Of course this is not a place to question previous studies, but would you really expect the gene expression associated with the temporary processes to remain stable throughout the development? For example, myelination would follow different spatiotemporal gradient across brain regions, is it reasonable to expect that the expression patterns remain the same? How do you then interpret a changing measure of coupling (correlation with age) with a gene expression assessed statically?

      We agree with your comment that the spatial expression patterns is expected to vary at different periods. We have revised the previous description, please see lines 383-386: “Fifth, it is important to acknowledge that changes in gene expression levels during development may introduce bias in the results.”

      - Reproducibility analyses:

      ** Paragraph L576: are we to understand that you performed the entire pipeline 3 times (WD, S1, S2) for both parcellations schemes and tractography methods (~12 times) including the selection of communication models and you always got the same best three communication models and gene expression etc? Or did you make some design choices (i.e. selection of communication models) only on a specific set-up and transfer to other settings?

      The choice of communication model is established at the beginning, which we have clarified in the article, please see lines 106-108: “We used these three models to represent the extracortical connectivity properties in subsequent discovery and reproducibility analyses (Figure S1).” For reproducibility analyses (parcellation, tractography, and split-half validation), we fixed other settings and only assessed the impact of a single factor.

      ** Paragraph of L241: I really appreciate you evaluated the robustness of your results to different tractography strategies. It is reassuring to see the similarity in results for the two approaches. Did you notice any age-related effects on tractography quality for the two methods given the wide age range (did you check?)

      In our study, the tractography quality was checked by visual inspection. Using quantifiable tools to tractography quality in future studies could answer this question objectively.

      ** Additionally, I wonder how much of that overlap is driven by the changes in MPC which is the same between the two methods... especially given its high weight in the SC-FC coupling you reported earlier in the paper. It might be informative to directly compare the connectivity matrices derived from the two tracto methods directly. Generally, as mentioned in the previous comments, I think it would be interesting to assess coupling using different input settings (with WM structural and MPC separate and then combined).

      As your previous comment, we have examined the coupling patterns, coupling differences, coupling age correlation, and spatial correlations between the patterns based on different models, as shown in Figure S2. Please see our response to the previous comment for details.

      ** L251 - I also wonder if the random splitting is best adapted to validation in your case given you study relationships with age. Would it make more sense to make stratified splits to ensure a 'similar age coverage' across splits?

      In our study, we adopt the random splitting process which repeated 1,000 times to minimize bias due to data partitioning. The stratification you mentioned is a reasonable method, and keeping the age distribution even will lead to higher verification similarity than our validation method. However, from the validation results of our method, the similarity is sufficient to explain the generalization of our findings.

      Minor comments

      L42: 'is regulated by genes'

      ** Coupling (if having a functional role and being regulated at all) is possibly resulting from a complex interplay of different factors in addition to genes, for example, learning/environment, it might be more cautious to use 'regulated in part by genes' or similar.

      We have corrected it, please see line 42.

      L43 (and also L377): 'development of SC-FC coupling'

      ** I know this is very nitpicky and depends on your opinion about the nature of SC-FC coupling, but 'development of SC-FC coupling' gives an impression of something maturing that has a role 'in itself' (for example development of eye from neuroepithelium to mature organ etc.). For now, I am not sure it is fully certain that SC-FC coupling is more than a byproduct of the comparison between SC and FC, using 'changes in SC-FC coupling with development' might be more apt.

      We have corrected it, please see lines 43-44.

      L261 'SC-FC coupling was stronger ... [] ... and followed fundamental properties of cortical organization.' vs L168 'No significant correlations were found between developmental changes in SC-FC coupling and the fundamental properties of cortical organization'.

      **Which one is it? I think in the first you refer to mean coupling over all infants and in the second about correlation with age. How do you interpret the difference?

      Between the ages of 5 and 22 years, we found that the mean SC-FC coupling pattern has become similar to that of adults, consistent with the fundamental properties of cortical organization. However, the developmental changes in SC-FC coupling are heterogeneous and sequential and do not follow the mean coupling pattern to change in the same magnitude.

      L277: 'temporal and spatial complexity'

      ** Additionally, communication models have different assumptions about the flow within the structural network and will have different biological plausibility (they will be more or less

      'realistic').

      Here temporal and spatial complexity is from a computational point of view.

      L283: 'We excluded a centralized model (shortest paths), which was not biologically plausible' ** But in Text S1 and Table S1 you specify the shortest paths models. Does this mean you computed them but did not incorporate them in the final coupling computations even if they were predictive?

      ** Generally, I find the selection of the final 3 communication models confusing. It would be very useful if you could clarify this further, for example in the methods section.

      We used all twenty-seven communication models (including shortest paths) to predict FC at the node level for each participant. Then we identified three communication models that can significantly predict FC. For the shortest path, he was excluded because he did not meet the significance criteria. We have further added methodological details to this section, please see lines 503-507.

      L332 'As we observed increasing coupling in these [frontoparietal network and default mode network] networks, this may have contributed to the improvements in general intelligence, highlighting the flexible and integrated role of these networks' vs L293 'SC-FC coupling in association areas, which have lower structural connectivity, was lower than that in sensory areas. This configuration effectively releases the association cortex from strong structural constraints imposed by early activity cascades, promoting higher cognitive functions that transcend simple sensori-motor exchanges'

      ** I am not sure I follow the reasoning. Could you expand on why it would be the decoupling promoting the cognitive function in one case (association areas generally), but on the reverse the increased coupling in frontoparietal promoting the cognition in the other (specifically frontoparietal)?

      We tried to explain the problem, for general intelligence, increased coupling in frontoparietal could allow more effective information integration enable efficient collaboration between different cognitive processes.

      * Formatting errors etc.

      L52: maybe rephrase?

      We have rephrased, please see lines 51-53: “The T1- to T2-weighted (T1w/T2w) ratio of MRI has been proposed as a means of quantifying microstructure profile covariance (MPC), which reflects a simplified recapitulation in cellular changes across intracortical laminar structure[6, 1215].”

      L68: specialization1,[20].

      We have corrected it.

      L167: 'networks significantly increased with age and exhibited greater increased' - needs rephrasing.

      We have corrected it.

      L194: 'networks were significantly predicted the general intelligence' - needs rephrasing.

      We have corrected it, please see lines 204-205: “we found that the weights of frontoparietal and default mode networks significantly contributed to the prediction of the general intelligence.”

      L447: 'and temporal bandpass filtering' - there is a verb missing.

      We have corrected it, please see line 471: “executed temporal bandpass filtering.”

      L448: 'greater than 0.15' - unit missing.

      We have corrected it, please see line 472: “greater than 0.15 mm”.

      L452: 'After censoring, regression of nuisance variables, and temporal bandpass filtering,' - no need to repeat the steps as you mentioned them 3 sentences earlier.

      We have removed it.

      L458-459: sorry I find this description slightly confusing. What do you mean by 'modal'? Connectional -> connectivity profile. The whole thing could be simplified, if I understand correctly your vector of independent variables is a set of wm and microstructural 'connectivity' of the given node... if this is not the case, please make it clearer.

      We have corrected it, please see line 488: “where 𝒔𝑖 is the 𝑖th SC profiles, 𝑛 is the number of SC profiles”.

      L479: 'values and system-specific of 480 coupling'.

      We have corrected it.

      L500: 'regular' - regularisation.

      We have changed it to “regularization”.

      L567: Do you mean that in contrast to probabilistic with FSL you use deterministic methods within Camino? For L570, you introduce communication models through 'such as': did you fit all models like before? If not, it might be clearer to just list the ones you estimated rather than introduce through 'such as'.

      We have changed the description to avoid ambiguity, please see lines 608-609: “We then calculated the communication properties of the WMC including communicability, mean first passage times of random walkers, and flow graphs (timescales=1).”

      Citation [12], it is unusual to include competing interests in the citation, moreover, Dr. Bullmore mentioned is not in the authors' list - this is most likely an error with citation import, it would be good to double-check.

      We have corrected it.

      L590: Python scripts used to perform PLS regression can 591 be found at https://scikitlearn.org/. The link leads to general documentation for sklearn.

      We have corrected it, please see lines 627-630: “Python scripts used to perform PLS regression can be found at https://scikit-learn.org/stable/modules/generated/sklearn.cross_decomposition.PLSRegression.html#sklearn.cro ss_decomposition.PLSRegression.”

      P26 and 27 - there are two related sections: Data and code availability and Code availability - it might be worth merging into one section if possible.

      We have corrected it, please see lines 623-633.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer 1 (Public review):

      (1) The authors state that they have reclassified the allelic expression status of 32 genes (shown in Table S5, Supplementary Figure 3). The concern is the source of the tissue or cell line which was originally used to make the classification of XCI status, and whether the comparisons are equivalent. For example, if cell lines (and not tissues) were used to define the XCI status for EGFL6, TSPAN6, and CXorf38, then how can the authors be sure that the escape status in whole tissues would be the same? Also, along these lines, the authors should consider whether escape status in previous studies using immortalized/cancer cell lines (such as the meta-analyses done in Balaton publication) would be different compared to healthy tissues (seems like it should be). Therefore, making comparisons between healthy whole tissues and cancer cell lines doesn't make sense.

      Indeed, many previous classifications were based on clonal cell lines, which could result in atypical patterns of escape due to the profound and varied effects of adaptation to culture. However, one of the primary goals of our study was to directly determine allele-specific expression from the X-chromosome in healthy primary tissues, in part to exclude the potential confounding effects of cell culture. 

      Whereas we do perform comparisons with cell culture-based classifications, we also provide detailed comparisons with the previous classification of Tukiainen et al, which also uses primary human tissues. In addition, whereas the comparison with Balaton et al is not optimal, we hold that it is valuable as it reveals which genes may exhibit aberrant escape patterns in culture. Finally, despite the above reservations, our comparison revealed an over-whelming agreement with previous research which suggests that in the vast majority of cases, escape appears to be correctly maintained in culture. 

      (2) The authors note that skewed XCI is prevalent in the human population, and cite some publications (references 8, 10-12). If RNAseq data is available from these female individuals with skewed XCI (such as ref 12), the authors should consider using their allelic expression pipeline to identify XCI status of more X-linked genes.

      Indeed, we completely agree and are in the process of obtaining this data which has proven complex and time-consuming in the currently regulatory environment.

      (3) It has been well established that the human inactive X has more XCI escape genes compared to the mouse inactive X. In light of the author's observations across human tissues, how does the XCI status compare with the same tissues in mice?

      This is a very interesting point, and a comparison we are currently working on. However, this is a major undertaking and one that is outside of the scope of this study. We do appreciate the differences in mice and humans on X-chromosome level and could only speculate on the overlap being relatively small as the number of escapees in mice has been shown the be far lower than in humans.

      Reviewer 2 (Public review):

      In my view there are only minor weaknesses in this work, that tend to come about due to the requirement to study individuals with highly skewed X inactivation. I wonder whether the cause of the highly skewed X inactivation may somehow influence the likelihood of observing tissue-specific escape from X inactivation. In this light, it would be interesting to further understand the genetic cause for the highly skewed X inactivation in each of these three cases in the whole exome sequencing data. Future additional studies may validate these findings using single-cell approaches in unrelated individuals across tissues, where there is normal X inactivation.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive assessment of our work. This is a point we have and continue to grapple with. We cannot rule out that the genetic cause of complete skewing may influence tissue-specific XCI.  Moreover, the genetic cause for the non-mosaic XCI is currently unclear and is likely to vary between individuals, which could also result in inter-individual variation in tissue-specific escape. We are currently performing large prospective studies in the tissues of healthy females to specifically address this point.

      Reviewer 3 (Public review):

      There are very few, except that this escape catalogue is limited to 3 donors, based on a single(representative) tissue screen in 285 female donors, mostly using muscle samples. However, if only pituitary samples had been screened, nmXCI-1 would have been missed. Additional donors in the 285 representative samples cross a lower threshold of AE = 0.4. It would be worthwhile to query all tissues of the 285 donors to discover more nmXCI cases, as currently fewer than half of X-linked genes received a call using this very worthwhile approach.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive assessment of our work. Of course, we agree that a tissue-wide screen in all individuals would have been optimal and is a line of research we are currently pursuing. However, the analysis of allele-specific expression in all 5,000 RNA-seq samples is a massive undertaking and was simply not practicable within the time-scale of this study. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Thanks to the authors for an interesting manuscript! I enjoyed reading it and the care that has gone into explaining the analyses and the findings. There are a few recommendations that I have for strengthening the work.

      We thank the reviewer for the nice feedback. Much appreciated.

      (1) I would like to see a genetic analysis of the three individuals, to try and identify the genetic causes of the skewed X inactivation beyond just considering the XIC or translocations. The cause of the highly skewed X inactivation would be of interest to many.

      This is certainly a very interesting avenue of research and one that we are currently focusing on. However, in the current study we simply had too few skewed XCI females to assess this  in an exhaustive manner. To tackle this issue, we have begun a prospective study of healthy females to identify additional non-mosaic females.

      (2) I wonder whether the cause of the skewed XCI may somehow influence the assessment of tissue-specific escape? If there is a problem with X inactivation itself, perhaps escape would also be different, making it appear more constitutive than tissue-specific?

      This is a point we have and continue to grapple with. We cannot rule out that the genetic cause of complete skewing may influence tissue-specific XCI.  Moreover, the genetic cause for the non-mosaic XCI is currently unclear and is likely to vary between individuals, which could result in inter-individual variation in tissue-specific escape.

      (3) Presentation/wording suggestions:

      I think the abstract is likely a bit inaccessible to those outside the field. I am in the X inactivation field, but don't use the term non-mosaic X inactivation, but rather would call it highly skewed, or non-random X inactivation. In my view, it would be simpler for the abstract to call non-mosaic XCI highly skewed XCI instead, or to use more words to ensure it is clear for the reader.

      We agree that the terminology of completely skewed/non-mosaic XCI could be more clearly defined in the abstract and have clarified this. “Using females that are non-mosaic (completely skewed) for X-inactivation (nmXCI) has proven a powerful and natural genetic system for profiling X-inactivation in humans.”

      I would consider calling the always escape genes constitutive escapees, while the variable may be facultative.

      This is something we have also considered and have received differing feedback on. However, we will definitely keep this in mind for future publications.

      Line 132, it would be useful to explain median >0.475 as less than 2.5% of reads coming from the inactive allele here, not just in the methods. Can you also explain why this cutoff was chosen?

      We thank the reviewer for this clarification. A clarification has been added to the main text as suggested.

      The cutoff was applied to account for potential variations in skewing, given that we screened only a single tissue sample per individual. Although nmXCI females are theoretically expected to have 0% of reads originating from the 'inactive' allele, this is not always observed due to (a) technical errors such as PCR or sequencing inaccuracies, or (b) differences in skewing between tissue types.

      Lines 156-160 describe how the heterozygous SNPs were identified in relation to Figure 2. I read these in the methods so that I could understand Figure 1, so I suggest moving this section up.

      We have moved the section as suggested by the reviewer.

      Line 156, consider adding in a sentence to describe what is shown in Figures 2A and B i.e, the overlap of SNPs and spread along the X.

      We have added a sentence describing what is shown in Figures 2A and 2B as suggested by the reviewer.

      Line 217, it would be useful to give the % of genes that show tissue-specific escape, to quantify rare.

      We have added a sentence quantifying ‘rare’ at the suggested line.

      (4) Typos:

      Line 119, missing 'the most' before extensive (and remove an).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. This error has been corrected.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Some results in the supplementary figures were quite striking. What is going on with DDX3X and ZRSR2? How come total read counts are so different between individuals?

      Indeed, this is a very intriguing observation and one that we have simply failed to understand thus far. We are currently performing a large prospective study to obtain greater number of non-mosaic females and tissues samples. Hopefully, additional observations across females will allow us to gain further insights into the inter-individual behaviour of DDX3X and ZRSR2.   

      One item I would like to see added is some analysis to address the cause of these extremely skewed XCI individuals. The copy number analysis suggests there are some segmental deletions on the X in all three nmXCI cases. Where are these deletions, and do any fall in the region of the X-inactivation centre? Have the authors performed any analysis of potentially deleterious X-linked variants in the WGS or WES data? Why are these donors so skewed? It's interesting that UPIC was still more skewed than the other two.

      The segmental deletions the reviewer points out are not segmental deletions, the same variation in coverage is found in all females we’ve looked at including females with a mosaic XCI (see Author response image 1 below where the same pattern of slightly lower read counts is observed at the same sites in all female samples). No deletions were identified in the XIC region. No analysis was performed of deleterious X-linked variants. Why the donors are so skewed is unknown and intriguing. Indeed, identifying the origin of extreme skewing (including the females in this study) is now the main focus of the group. Whereas UPIC had trisomy 17, which has likely resulted in the observed skewing, we have not yet found a genetic variant that could explain the skewing observed in 13PLJ or ZZPU.

      Author response image 1.

      Copy number as log2 ratio using 500kb bins across the X-chromosome for 3 mosaic XCI females (1QPFJ, OXRO, and RU1J) and 3 nmXCI females, UPIC, nmXCI-1 and nmXCI-2.

      This is not necessary to address with new analyses, but as alluded to above, the authors could screen more than a single representative tissue. And to apply this analysis to larger databases (UK biobank), which the authors may be planning to do already.

      This an avenue of research we are currently investigating. 

      The code is well-documented and accessible. Additional information on the manual reclassification (to deal with inflated binomial P-values) would be helpful. Why not require a minimal threshold for escape (10% of active X allele) in addition to a significant binomial P (inactive X exp. > 2.5% of active)?

      We thank the reviewer for this positive assessment of the code. 

      Indeed, how to define ‘escape’ is a vexed issue, and one we feel has been given undue weight within the field. In reality, studies of escape are often dealing with sparse data (e.g. read depth), few observations (genes and individuals) and substantial amounts of missing data. Thus, it is unlikely that a standard statistical approach will be sensitive and specific across different studies and data types. Similarly, cut-offs, though useful would also need to be adjusted to the data type and quality in any given study.

      Whereas we initially used a significant binomial P-value as our sole test (often quoted as ‘best practice’), this resulted in wide-spread inflation of P-values. Thus, we switched to manually curating the allelic expression status of all 380 genes using the empirical guideline of allelic ratio >0.4 (also a commonly used cut-off) as indicating mono-allelic expression. We considered combining the binomial P-value with the cut-off but felt that this would result in an overly complex definition of escape and would unnecessarily exclude many genes from classification, due to the opposing effects of low/high read depth on the binomial and cut-off approaches respectively.

      Indeed, due to the difficultly of both accurate and objective ‘classification’ of escape that we placed an emphasis on clearly displaying all data for each gene in each individual to allow readers to see all the data on which each classification was based.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      Left-right asymmetry in the developing embryo is important for establishing correct lateralisation of the internal organs, including the gut. It has been shown previously that the dorsal mesentery (DM), which supports looping of the endodermal gut tube during development, is asymmetric with sharp delineation of left and right domains prior to gut looping. The authors set out to investigate the nature of the midline barrier that separates the left and right sides of the DM. They identify a transient basement membrane-like structure which is organised into two layers between the notochord and descending endoderm. In the time window when this basement membrane structure exists, there is no diffusion or cell mixing between the left and right sides of the DM, but once this structure starts breaking down, mixing and diffusion occur. This suggests it acts as a barrier, both physical and chemical, between left and right at the onset of gut lateralisation.

      Strengths:

      The authors identify a new midline structure that likely acts as a barrier to facilitate left and right separation during early organogenesis. This is an interesting addition to the field of laterality, with relevance to laterality-related disorders including heterotaxia, and may represent a gut-specific mechanism for establishing and maintaining early left-right asymmetry. The structure of this midline barrier appears to be an atypical basement membrane, comprising two adjacent basement membranes. The complexities of basement membrane assembly, maintenance, and function are of importance in almost all organismal contexts. Double basement membranes have been previously reported (for example in the kidney glomeruli as the authors note), and increasing evidence suggests that atypical basement membrane organisation or consideration is likely to be more prevalent than previously appreciated. Thus this work is both novel and broadly interesting.

      The data presented are well executed, using a variety of well-established methods. The characterisation of the midline barrier at the stages examined is extensive, and the data around the correlation between the presence of the midline barrier and molecular diffusion or cell mixing across the midline are convincing.

      Weaknesses:

      The study is rather descriptive, and the authors' hypotheses around the origins of the midline barrier are speculative and not experimentally demonstrated. While several potential origins of the midline are excluded raising interesting questions about the timing and cell-type-specific origin of the midline basement membrane, these remain unanswered which limits the scope of the paper.

      We extend our appreciation to Reviewer #1 for their thoughtful and comprehensive evaluation of our work, recognizing the considerable time and effort they dedicated to our work. We agree that functional data would significantly strengthen our understanding of the midline barrier and its exact role during LR asymmetric gut development. However, we would like to note that repeated and diligent attempts to perturb this barrier were made using various strategies, such as in vivo laser ablation, diphtheria toxin, molecular disruption (Netrin 4), and enzymatic digestion (MMP2 and MMP9 electroporation) but we observed no significant effect or stable disruption of the midline. We acknowledge and accept this limitation and hope that our discovery will invite future investigations and perturbation of this novel midline structure.

      For example, it is unclear whether the two basement membranes originally appear to be part of a single circular/spherical structure (which looks possible from the images) that simply becomes elongated, or whether it is indeed initially two separate basement membranes that extend.

      We favor the hypothesis that the elongation of the preexisting small circular structure to an extended double membrane of relatively increased length would be unlikely without continued contribution of new basement membrane components. However, our attempts to label and trace the basement membrane of the endoderm using tagged laminins (LAMB1-GFP, LAMB1-His, and LAMC1-His), and more recently tagged nidogen constructs (NID1-GFP and NID1-mNG) have met with export issues (despite extensive collaboration with experts, Drs. Dave Sherwood and Peter Yurchenco). As such, it remains difficult to differentiate between the two possibilities suggested. We also believe this is an important question and will continue to investigate methods to trace it.

      There is a substantial gap between the BMs at earlier stages before the endoderm has descended - is this a lumen, or is it filled with interstitial matrix?

      Our preliminary studies indicate that the gap enclosed by the basement membranes in the early midline structure does have extracellular matrix present, such as fibrillin-2 (see Author response image 1). Also, the electron microscopy shown in Fig. 2 C’’ supports that the space between the notochord and endoderm has fibrillar matrix.

      Author response image 1.

      The authors show where this basement membrane does not originate from, but only speculate on its origin. Part of this reasoning is due to the lack of Lama1-expressing cells either in the early midline barrier before it extends, or in the DM cells adjacent to it. However, the Laminin observed in the midline could be comprised of a different alpha subtype for example, that wasn't assessed (it has been suggested that the Laminin antibody used in this study is not specific to the alpha-1 subunit, see e.g. Lunde et al, Brain Struct Funct, 2015).

      We appreciate this comment and have tried other laminin RNA probes that showed similar lack of midline expression (Lama1, lama3, lama5). Importantly, the laminin alpha 1 subunit is a component of the laminin 111 heterotrimer, which along with laminin 511 is the first laminin to be expressed and assemble in embryonic basement membranes, as reviewed in Yurchenco 2011. Laminin 111 is particularly associated with embryonic development while laminins 511/521 become the most widespread in the adult (reviewed in Aumailley 2013). It is likely that the midline contains laminin 111 based on our antibody staining and the accepted importance and prevalence of laminin 111 in embryonic development. However, it is indeed worth noting that most laminin heterotrimers contain beta 1, gamma 1, or both subunits, and due to this immunological relation laminin antibody cross reactivity is certainly known (Aumailley 2013). As such, while laminin 511 remains a possibility as a component of the midline BM, our lama5 in situs have shown no differential expression at the midline of the dorsal mesentery (see Author response image 2), and as such we are confident that our finding of no local laminin transcription is accurate. Additionally, we will note that the study referenced by the Reviewer observed cross reactivity between the alpha 1 and alpha 2 subunits. Laminin 211/221 is an unlikely candidate based on the embryonic context, and because they are primarily associated with muscle basement membranes (Aumailley 2013). In further support, we recently conducted a preliminary transcriptional profile analysis of midline cells isolated through laser capture microdissection (LCM), which revealed no differential expression of any laminin subunit at the midline. Please note that these data will be included as part of a follow-up story and falls beyond the scope of our initial characterization.

      Author response image 2.

      Similarly, the authors show that the midline barrier breaks down, and speculate that this is due to the activity of e.g. matrix metalloproteinases, but don't assess MMP expression in that region.

      This is an important point, as the breakdown of the midline is unusually rapid. Our MMP2 RNA in situ hybridization at HH21, and ADAMTS1 (and TS9) at HH19-21 indicates no differential activity at the midline (see Author response images 3 and 4). Our future focus will be on identifying a potential protease that exhibits differential activity at the midline of the DM.

      Author response image 3.

      Author response image 4.

      The authors suggest the (plausible) hypothesis that the descent of the endoderm pulls or stretches the midline barrier out from its position adjacent to the notochord. This is an interesting possibility, but there is no experimental evidence to directly support this. Similarly, while the data supporting the barrier function of this midline is good, there is no analysis of the impact of midline/basement membrane disruption demonstrating that it is required for asymmetric gut morphogenesis. A more functional approach to investigating the origins and role of this novel midline barrier would strengthen the study.

      Yes, we fully agree that incorporating functional data would immensely advance our understanding of the midline barrier and its crucial role in left-right gut asymmetry. However, our numerous efforts to perturb this barrier have encountered technical obstacles. For instance, while perturbing the left and right compartments of the DM is a routine and well-established procedure in our laboratory, accessing the midline directly through similar approaches has been far more challenging. We have made several attempts to address this hurdle using various strategies, such as in vivo laser ablation, diphtheria toxin, molecular disruption (Netrin 4), and enzymatic digestion (MMP2 and MMP9 electroporation). Despite employing diverse approaches, we have yet to achieve effective and interpretable perturbation of this resilient structure. We acknowledge this limitation and remain committed to developing methods to disrupt the midline in our current investigations. We again thank Reviewer #1 for the detailed feedback on our manuscript, guidance, and the time taken to provide these comments.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Using Laminin subunit-specific antibodies, or exploring the mRNA expression of more laminin subunits may support the argument that the midline does not derive from the notochord, endoderm, or DM.

      As mentioned above, RNA in situ hybridization for candidate genes and a preliminary RNA-seq analysis of cells isolated from the dorsal mesentery midline revealed no differential expression of any laminin subunits.

      Similarly, expression analysis of Laminin-degrading MMPs, and/or application of an MMP inhibitor and assessment of midline integrity could strengthen the authors' hypothesis that the BM is actively and specifically broken down.

      Our MMP2 RNA in situ hybridization at HH21, and ADAMTS1 at HH19-21shows no differential expression pattern at the midline of the DM (see Author response image 3). We have not included these data in the revision, but future work on this topic will aim at identifying a protease that is differentially active at the midline of the DM.

      Functionally testing the role of barrier formation in regulating left-right asymmetry or the role of endoderm descent in elongating the midline barrier would be beneficial. Regarding the former, the authors show that Netrin4 overexpression is insufficient to disrupt the midline, but perhaps overexpression of e.g. MMP9 prior to descent of the endoderm would facilitate early degradation of the midline, and the impact of this on gut rotation could be assessed.

      Unfortunately, MMP9 electroporation has produced little appreciable effect. We acknowledge that the lack of direct evidence for the midline’s role in regulating left-right asymmetry is a shortcoming, but current work on this subject aims to define the midline’s function to LR asymmetric morphogenesis.

      Reviewer #2:

      When the left-right asymmetry of an animal body is established, the barrier that prevents the mixing of signals or cells across the midline is essential. The midline barrier that prevents the mixing of asymmetric signals during the patterning step has been identified. However, a midline barrier that separates both sides during asymmetric organogenesis is unknown. In this study, the authors discovered the cellular structure that seems to correspond to the midline in the developing midgut. This midline structure is transient, present at the stage when the barrier would be required, and composed of Laminin-positive membrane. Stage-dependent diffusion of dextran across the midline (Figure 6) coincides with the presence or absence of the structure (Figures 2, 3). These lines of indirect evidence suggest that this structure most likely functions as the midline barrier in the developing gut.

      We extend our gratitude to Reviewer #2 for their thoughtful assessment of our research and for taking the time to provide these constructive comments. We are excited to report that we have now included additional new data on midline diffusion using BODIPY and quantification method to further support our findings on the midline's barrier function. While our data on dextran and now BODIPY both indirectly suggests barrier function, we aspire to perturb the midline directly to assess its role in the dorsal mesentery more conclusively. However, our numerous efforts to perturb this barrier have encountered technical obstacles. For instance, while perturbing the left and right compartments of the DM is a routine and well-established procedure in our laboratory, accessing the midline directly through similar approaches has been far more challenging. We have made several attempts to address this hurdle using various strategies, such as in vivo laser ablation, diphtheria toxin, molecular disruption (Netrin 4), and enzymatic digestion (MMP2 and MMP9 electroporation). Despite employing diverse approaches, we have yet to achieve effective and interpretable perturbation of this resilient structure. Moving forward, our focus is on identifying an effective means of perturbation that can offer direct evidence of barrier function.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      (1) It would be much nicer if the requirement of this structure for asymmetric morphogenesis was directly tested. However, experimental manipulations such as ectopic expression of Netrin4 or transplantation of the notochord were not able to influence the formation of this structure (these results, however, suggested the mechanism of the midline formation in the gut dorsal mesentery). Therefore, it seems not feasible to directly test the function of the structure, and this should be the next issue.

      We fully agree that the midline will need to be perturbed to fully elucidate its role in asymmetric gut morphogenesis. As noted, multiple attempts were ineffective at perturbing this structure. Extensive current work on this topic is dedicated to finding an effective perturbation method.

      (2) Whereas Laminin protein was present in the double basement membrane at the midline, Laminin mRNA was not expressed in the corresponding region (Fig. 4A-C). It is necessary to discuss (with experimental evidence if available) the origin of Laminin protein.

      As we have noted, the source of laminin and basement membrane components for the midline remains unclear - no local transcription and the lack of sufficiency of the notochord to produce a midline indicates that the endoderm to be a likely source of laminin, as we have proposed in our zippering endoderm model. We will note that Fig. 4A-C indicate that laminin is in fact actively transcribed in the endoderm. Currently, attempts to trace the endodermal basement membrane using tagged laminins (LAMB1-GFP, LAMB1-His, and LAMC1-His), and more recently tagged nidogen constructs (NID1-GFP and NID1-mNG) have met with export issues (despite extensive collaboration with experts, Drs. Dave Sherwood and Peter Yurchenco). Confirmation of our proposed endodermal origin model is a goal of our ongoing work.

      (3) Figure 4 (cell polarity from GM130 staining): addition of representative GM130 staining images for each Rose graph (Figure 4E) would help. They can be shown in Supplementary Figures. Also, a graph for the right coelomic epithelium in Fig. 4E would be informative.

      We have added the requested GM130 images in our Supplemental Figures (please refer to Fig. S4ABB’) and modified the main Fig. 4E to include a rose graph for the polarity of the right coelomic epithelium.

      (4) Histological image of HH19 DM shown in Fig. 2J looks somehow different from that shown in Fig. 3F. Does Fig. 2J represent a slightly earlier stage than Fig. 3F?

      Figure 2J and Figure 3F depict a similar stage, although the slight variation in the length of the dorsal mesentery is attributed to the pseudo time phenomenon illustrated in Figure 3J-J’’’. This implies that the sections in Figure 2J and Figure 3F might originate from slightly different positions along the anteroposterior axis. Nonetheless, these distinctions are minimal, and based on the dorsal mesentery's length in Figure 2J, the midline is likely extremely robust regardless of this minor pseudo time difference.

      Reviewer #3:

      Summary:

      The authors report the presence of a previously unidentified atypical double basement membrane (BM) at the midline of the dorsal mesentery (DM) during the establishment of left-right (LR) asymmetry. The authors suggest that this BM functions as a physical barrier between the left and the right sides of the DM preventing cell mixing and ligand diffusion, thereby establishing LR asymmetry.

      Strengths:

      The observation of the various components in the BM at the DM midline is clear and convincing. The pieces of evidence ruling out the roles of DM and the notochord in the origin of this BM are also convincing. The representation of the figures and the writing is clear.

      Weaknesses:

      The paper's main and most important weakness is that it lacks direct evidence for the midline BM's barrier and DM LR asymmetry functions.

      We thank Reviewer #3 for their thoughtful and comprehensive evaluation of our work, recognizing the considerable time and effort they dedicated to assessing our study. We fully agree that incorporating functional data would immensely advance our understanding of the midline barrier and its crucial role in left-right gut asymmetry. However, several distinct attempts at perturbing this barrier have encountered technical obstacles. While our laboratory routinely perturbs the left and right compartments of the DM via DNA electroporation and other techniques, directly perturbing the midline using these methods is far more challenging. We have made diligent attempts to address this using various strategies, such as in vivo laser ablation, diphtheria toxin, molecular disruption (Netrin 4), and enzymatic digestion (MMP2 and MMP9 electroporation). However, we have not yet been able to identify a means of producing consistent and interpretable perturbation of the midline. We acknowledge this limitation and remain committed to developing methods to disrupt the midline in our current investigations.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Major:

      (1) We suggest the authors test their hypotheses i.e., physical barrier and proper LR asymmetry establishment by the midline BM, by disrupting it using techniques such as physical ablation, over-expression of MMPs, or treatment with commercially available enzymes that digest the BM.

      As above, efforts involving physical ablation and MMP overexpression have not yielded significant effects on the midline thus far. Moving forward, investigating the midline's role in asymmetric morphogenesis will necessitate finding a method to perturb it effectively. In pursuit of progress on this critical question, we recently conducted laser capture microdissection (LCM) and RNA-sequencing of the midline to unravel the mechanisms underlying its formation and potential disruption. This work shows promise but it is still in its early stages; validating it will require significant time and effort, and it falls outside the scope of the current manuscript.

      (2) Lefty1's role in the midline BM was ruled out by correlating lack of expression of the gene at the midline during HH19 when BM proteins expression was observed. Lefty1 may still indirectly or directly trigger the expression of these BM proteins at earlier stages. The only way to test this is by inhibiting lefty1 expression and examining the effect on BM protein localization.

      We have added a section to discuss the potential of Lefty1 inhibition as a future direction. However, similar to perturbing global Nodal expression, interpreting the results of Lefty1 inhibition could be challenging. This is because it may not specifically target the midline but could affect vertebrate laterality as a whole. Despite this complexity, we acknowledge the value of such an experiment and consider it worth pursuing in the future.

      (3) Using a small dextran-based assay, the authors conclude that diffusible ligands such as cxcl2 and bmp4 do not diffuse across the midline (Figure 6). However, dextran injection in this system seems to label the cells, not the extracellular space. The authors measure diffusion, or the lack thereof, by counting the proportion of dextran-labeled cells rather than dextran intensity itself. Therefore, This result shows a lack of cell mixing across the midline (already shown in Figure 2 ) rather than a lack of diffusion.

      We should emphasize that the dextran-injected embryos shown in Fig. 6 D-F were isolated two hours post-injection, a timeframe insufficient for cell migration to occur across the DM (Mahadevan et al., 2014). We also collected additional post-midline stage embryos ten minutes after dextran injections - too short a timeframe for significant cellular migration (Mahadevan et al., 2014). Importantly, the fluorescent signal in those embryos was comparable to that observed in the embryos in Fig. 6. Thus, we believe the movement of fluorescent signal across the DM when the barrier starts to fragment (HH20-HH23) is unlikely to represent cell migration. More than a decade of DNA electroporation experiments of the left vs. right DM by our laboratory and others have never indicated substantial cell migration across the midline (Davis et al., 2008; Kurpios et al., 2008; Welsh et al., 2013; Mahadevan et al., 2014; Arraf et al. 2016; Sivakumar et al., 2018; Arraf et al. 2020; and Sanketi et al., 2022). This is also shown in our current GFP/RFP double electroporation data in Fig. 2 G-H, and DiI/DiO labeling data in Fig. 2 E-G. Collectively, our experiments suggest that the dextran signal we observed at HH20 and HH23 is likely not driven by cell mixing.

      To further strengthen this argument, we now have additional new data on midline diffusion using BODIPY diffusion and quantification method to support our findings on the midline's function against diffusion (please refer to New Fig. 6H-M). Briefly, we utilized a BODIPY-tagged version of AMD3100 (Poty et al., 2015) delivered via soaked resin beads surgically inserted into the left coelomic cavity (precursor to the DM). The ratio of average AMD3100-BODIPY intensity in the right DM versus the left DM was below 0.5 when the midline is intact (HH19), indicating little diffusion across the DM (Fig. 6J). At HH21 when no midline remains, this ratio significantly rises to near one, indicating diffusion of the drug is not impeded when the midline basement membrane structure is absent. Collectively, these data suggest that the basement membrane structure at the midline forms a transient functional barrier against diffusion.

      (4) Moreover, in a previous study (Mahadevan et al., Dev Cell., 2014), cxcl2 and bmp4 expression was observed on both the left and right side before gut closure (HH17, when midline BM is observed). Then their expression patterns were restricted on the left or right side of DM at around HH19-20 (when midline BM is dissociated). The authors must explain how the midline BM can act as a barrier against diffusible signals at HH-17 to 19, where diffusible signals (cxcl12 and bmp4) were localized on both sides.

      We appreciate the Reviewer's invitation to clarify this crucial point. Early in dorsal mesentery (DM) formation, genes like Cxcl12 (Mahadevan et al., Dev Cell 2014) and Bmp4 (Sanketi et al., Science 2021) exhibit symmetry before Pitx2 expression initiates on the left (around ~HH18, Sanketi et al., 2021). Pitx2 then inhibits BMP4 (transcription) and maintains Cxcl12 (mRNA) expression on the left side. The loss of Cxcl12 mRNA on the right is due to the extracellular matrix (ECM), particularly hyaluronan (Sivakumar et al., Dev Cell 2018). Our hypothesis is that during these critical stages of initial DM asymmetry establishment, the midline serves as a physical barrier against protein diffusion to protect this asymmetry during a critical period of symmetry breaking. Although some genes, such as Pitx2 and Cxcl12 continue to display asymmetric transcription after midline dissolution (Cxcl12 becomes very dynamic later on – see Mahadevan), it's crucial to note that the midline's primary role is preventing protein diffusion across it, akin to an insurance policy. Thus, the absence of the midline barrier at HH21 does not result in the loss of asymmetric mRNA expression. We think its primary function is to block diffusible factors from crossing the midline at a critical period of symmetry breaking. We acknowledge that confirming this hypothesis will necessitate experimental disruption of the midline and observing the consequent effects on asymmetry in the DM. This remains central to our ongoing research on this subject.

      (5) On page 11, lines 15-17, the authors mention that "We know that experimentally mixing left and right signals is detrimental to gut tilting and vascular patterning-for example, ectopic expression of pro-angiogenic Cxcl12 on the right-side results in an aberrant vessel forming on the right (Mahadevan et al., Dev Cell., 2014)". In this previous report from the author's laboratory, the authors suggested that ectopic expression of cxcl12 on the right side induced aberrant formation of the vessel on the right side, which was formed from stage HH17, and the authors also suggested that the vessel originated from left-sided endothelial cells. If the midline BM acts as a barrier against the diffusible signal, how the left-sided endothelial cells can contribute to vessel formation at HH17 (before midline BM dissociation)?

      To address this point, we suggest directing the Reviewer to previously published supplemental movies of time-lapse imaging, which clearly illustrate the migration path of endothelial cells from left to right DM (Mahadevan et al., Dev Cell 2014). While the Reviewer correctly notes that ectopic induction of Cxcl12 on the right induces left-to-right migration, it's crucial to highlight that these cells never cross the midline. Instead, they migrate immediately adjacent to the tip of the endoderm (please also refer to published Movies S2 and S3). We observe this migration pattern even in wild-type scenarios during the loss of the endogenous right-sided endothelial cords, where some endothelial cells from the right begin slipping over to the left around HH19-20 (over the endoderm), as the midline is beginning to fragment, but never traverse the midline. We attribute this migration pattern to a dorsal-to-ventral gradient of left-sided Cxcl12 expression, as disrupting this pattern perturbs the migration trajectory (Mahadevan).

      6) It is unclear how continuous is the midline BM across the anterior-posterior axis across the relevant stages. Relatedly, it is unclear how LR segregated the cells are, across the anterior-posterior axis across the relevant stages.

      We refer the reviewer to Fig. 3J-K, in which the linear elongation of the midline basement membrane structure is shown and measured at HH19 in three embryos from the posterior of the embryo to the anterior point at which the midline is fragmented and ceases to be continuous. Similarly, Fig. S2 shoes the same phenomenon in serial sections along the length of the anterior-posterior (AP) axis at HH17, also showing the continuity of the midline. All our past work at all observed sections of the AP axis has shown that cells do not move across the midline as indicated by electroporation of DNA encoding fluorescent reporters (Davis et al. 2008, Kurpios et al. 2008, Welsh et al. 2013, Mahadevan et al. 2014, Sivakumar et al. 2018, Sanketi et al. 2022), and is shown again in Fig. 2 E-H. As noted previously, very few endothelial cells cross the midline at a point just above the endoderm (image above) when the right endothelial cord remodels (Mahadevan et al. 2014), but this is a limited phenomenon to endothelial cells and cells of the left and right DM are fully segregated as previously established.

      Minor comments:

      (1) The authors found that left and right-side cells were not mixed with each other even after the dissociation of the DM midline at HH21 (Fig2 H). And the authors also previously mentioned that N-cadherin contributes to cell sorting for left-right DM segregation (Kurpios et al., Proc Natl Acad Sci USA., 2008). It could be a part of the discussion about the difference in tissue segregation systems before or after the dissociation of DM midline.

      We appreciate this thoughtful suggestion. N-cadherin mediated cell sorting is key to the LR asymmetry of the DM and gut tilting, and we believe it underlies the observed lack of cell mixing from left and right DM compartments after the midline fragments. We have added a brief section to the discussion concerning the asymmetries in N-cadherin expression that develop after the midline fragments.

      (2) Please add the time point on the images (Fig3 C, D, Fig 6A and B)

      We have updated these figures to provide the requested stage information.

      (3) The authors suggested that the endoderm might be responsible for making the DM BM midline because the endoderm links to DM midlines and have the same resistance to NTN4. The authors mentioned that the midline and endoderm might have basement membranes of the same "flavor." However, perlecan expression was strongly expressed in the midline BM compared with the endodermal BM. It could be a part of the discussion about the difference in the properties of the BM between the endoderm and DM midline.

      Perlecan does indeed localize strongly to the endoderm as well as the midline. The HH18 image included in prior Fig. S3 B’, B’’ appears to show atypically low antibody staining in the endoderm for all membrane components. Perlecan is an important component for general basement membrane assembly, and the bulk of our HH18 and HH19 images indicate strong staining for perlecan in both midline and endoderm. Perlecan staining at the very earliest stages of midline formation also indicate perlecan in the endoderm as well, supporting the endoderm as a potential source for the midline basement membrane. We have updated Fig. S3 to include these images in our revision.

      (4) The authors investigated whether the midline BM originates from the notochord or endoderm, but did not examine a role for endothelial cells and pericytes surrounding the dorsal aorta (DA). In Fig S1, Fig S2, and FigS3, the authors showed that DA is very close to the DM midline basement membrane, so it is worth checking their roles.

      We fully agree that the dorsal aorta and the endothelial cords that originate from the dorsal aorta may interact with the midline in important ways. However, accessing the dorsal aorta for electroporation or other perturbation is extremely difficult. Additionally, the basement membrane of vascular endothelial cells has a distinct composition from a non-vascular basement membrane. Vascular endothelial cells produce only alpha 4 and alpha 5 laminin subunits but contain no alpha 1 subunit in any known species (reviewed in DiRusso et al., 2017). Thus, endothelial cell-derived basement membranes would not contain the alpha 1 laminin subunit that we used in our studies as a robust marker of the midline basement membrane. Additionally, no fibronectin is found in the midline basement membrane, while it is enriched in the dorsal aorta (see Supplemental Figure 3CC’C’’). We will briefly note that our preliminary data in quail tissue indicates that QH1+ cord cells (i.e. endothelial cells) sometimes exhibit striking contact with the midline along the dorso-ventral length of the DM, suggesting not an origin but an important interaction.

      Reviewer #4 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major comments:

      (1) The descending endoderm zippering model for the formation of the midline lacks evidence.

      We have attempted to address this issue by introducing several tagged laminin constructs (LAMB1-GFP, LAMB1-His, LAMC1-His), and more recently tagged nidogen plasmids (NID1-GFP and NID1-mNG) to the endoderm via DNA electroporation to try to label the source of the basement membrane. Production of the tagged components occurred but no export was observed in any case (despite extensive collaboration with experts in this area, Drs. Dave Sherwood and Peter Yurchenco). This experiment was further complicated by the necessary large size of these constructs at 10-11kb due to the size of laminin subunit genes, resulting in low electroporation efficiency. We also believe this is an important question and are continuing to investigate methods to trace it.

      The midline may be Ntn4 resistant until it is injected in the source cells.

      Ntn4 has been shown to disrupt both assembling and existing basement membranes (Reuten et al. 2016). Thus, we feel that the midline and endodermal basement membranes’ resistance to degradation is not determined by stage of assembly or location of secretion.

      Have you considered an alternative origin from the bilateral dorsal aorta or the paraxial mesoderm, which would explain the double layer as a meeting of two lateral tissues? The left and right paraxial mesoderm seem to abut in Fig. S1B-C and S2E, and is laminin-positive in Fig 4A'. What are the cells present at the midline (Fig.4D-E)? Are they negative for the coelomic tracing, paraxial or aortic markers?

      We fully agree that alternate origins of the midline basement membrane cannot be ruled out from our existing data. We agree and have considered the dorsal aorta and even the endothelial cords that originate from the dorsal aorta. However, accessing the dorsal aorta for electroporation or other perturbation is extremely difficult. Importantly, the basement membrane of vascular endothelial cells has a distinct composition from a non-vascular basement membrane. Vascular endothelial cells produce only alpha 4 and alpha 5 laminin subunits but contain no alpha 1 subunit in any known species (reviewed in Hallmann et al. 2005). Thus, endothelial cell-derived basement membranes would not contain the alpha 1 laminin subunit that we used in our studies as a robust marker of the midline basement membrane. Note in Fig. 3 E-H that our laminin alpha 1 antibody staining does not label the aortae. Additionally, no fibronectin is found in the midline basement membrane, while it is enriched in the dorsal aorta (see Supplemental Figure 3CC’C’’). We will briefly note that our preliminary data in quail tissue indicates that QH1+ cord cells (i.e. endothelial cells) sometimes exhibit striking contact with the midline along the dorso-ventral length of the DM, suggesting not an origin but an important interaction. Moreover, at the earliest stages of midline basement membrane emergence, the dorsal aortae are distant from the nascent basement membrane, as are the somites, which have not yet undergone any epithelial to mesenchymal transition. Fig. S2G provides an example of an extremely early midline basement membrane without dorsal aorta or somite contact. S2G is from a section of the embryo that is fairly posterior in the embryo, it is thus less developed in pseudo-time and gives a window on midline formation in very early embryos.

      (2) The importance of the midline is inferred from previously published data and stage correlations but will require more direct evidence. Can the midline be manipulated with Hh signaling or MMPs?

      We agree that direct evidence in the form of midline perturbation will be critically required. As previously noted, our numerous efforts to perturb this barrier have encountered technical obstacles. For instance, while perturbing the left and right compartments of the DM is a routine and well-established procedure in our laboratory, accessing the midline directly through similar approaches has been far more challenging. We have made several attempts to address this hurdle using various strategies, such as in vivo laser ablation, diphtheria toxin, molecular disruption (Netrin 4), and enzymatic digestion (MMP2 and MMP9 electroporation). Despite employing diverse approaches, we have yet to achieve effective and interpretable perturbation of this resilient structure. Targeting Hh signaling between the endoderm and notochord is a good idea and we will continue these efforts. Thanks very much.

      Minor comments:

      - Please add the species in the title.

      We have altered the title as follows: “An atypical basement membrane forms a midline barrier during left-right asymmetric gut development in the chicken embryo.”

      - The number of observations in Fig2, Fig3A-B, 4A-C, G-H, S1, S3 is lacking.

      We have added the requested n numbers of biological replicates to the legends of the specified figures.

      - Please annotate Fig 3J to show what is measured in K.

      We have modified Fig. 3J to include a dashed bar indicating the length measurements in Fig. 3K.

      - Please provide illustrations of Fig 4E.

      We have added a representative image of GM130 staining to the supplement.

      - If laminin gamma is the target of Ntn4, its staining would help interpret the results of Ntn4 manipulation. Is laminin gamma present in different proportions in the different types of basement membranes, underlying variations in sensitivity?

      Laminin is exported as a heterotrimer consisting of an alpha, beta, and gamma subunit. Laminin gamma is therefore present in equal proportions to other laminins in all basement membranes with a laminin network. Several gamma isoforms do exist, but only laminin gamma 1 will bind to laminin alpha 1, which we use throughout this paper to mark the midline as well as nearby basement membranes that are sensitive to Ntn4 disruption. Thus, gamma laminin proportions or isoforms are unlikely to underlie the resistance of the midline and endodermal basement membranes to Ntn4 (reviewed in Yurchenco 2011).

      - Please comment: what is the red outline abutting the electroporated DM on the left of Fig5B?

      The noted structure is the basement membrane of the nephric duct – we added this information to Fig. 5B image and legend.

      - The stage in Fig 6A-B is lacking.

      We have added the requested stage information to Fig. 6.

      - Please comment on whether there is or is not some cell mixing Fig 2H, at HH21 after the midline disappearance. Is it consistent with Fig. 6E-F which labels cells?

      More than a decade of DNA electroporation experiments of the left vs. right DM by our laboratory and others have never indicated dorsal mesentery cell migration across the midline (Davis et al., 2008; Kurpios et al., 2008; Welsh et al., 2013; Mahadevan et al., 2014; Arraf et al. 2016; Sivakumar et al., 2018; Arraf et al. 2020; and Sanketi et al., 2022). This is also shown in our current GFP/RFP double electroporation data in Fig. 2 G-H, and DiI/DiO labeling data in Fig. 2 E-G. Cell mixing does not occur even after midline disappearance, most likely due to asymmetric N-cadherin expression on the left side of the DM (Kurpios et al., 2008). The sparse, green-labeled cells observed on the right side in Fig. 2H are likely a result of DNA electroporation - the accuracy of this process relies on the precise injection of the left (or right) coelomic cavity (precursor to the gut mesenchyme including the DM) and subsequent correct placement of the platinum electrodes.

      Based on these data, we strongly feel that cellular migration is not responsible for the pattern of dextran observed in Fig. 6E-F, especially in light of the N-cadherin mediated segregation of left and right. We will also note that there is no significant difference between dextran diffusion at HH19 and HH20, only a trend towards significance. Additionally, we would like to note that the dextran-injected embryos were isolated two hours post-injection, which we do not believe is sufficient time for any cell migration to occur across the DM. We also collected additional post-midline stage embryos ten minutes after dextran injections (data not shown), too short a timeframe for significant cellular migration, and the fluorescent signal in those embryos was comparable to that represented in the embryos in Fig. 6. Thus, we believe the movement of fluorescent signal across the DM observed when the barrier starts to fragment at HH20 and HH23 is unlikely to represent movement of cells.

      To further strengthen this argument, we now have additional new data on midline diffusion using BODIPY and quantification method to support our findings on the midline's function against diffusion (please refer to New Fig. 6H-M). Briefly, we utilized a BODIPY-tagged version of AMD3100 (Poty et al., 2015) delivered via soaked resin beads surgically inserted into the left coelomic cavity (precursor to the DM). The ratio of average AMD3100-BODIPY intensity in the right DM versus the left DM was below 0.5 when the midline is intact (HH19), indicating little diffusion across the DM (Fig. 6J). At HH21 when no midline remains, this ratio significantly rises to near one, indicating diffusion of the drug is not impeded when the midline basement membrane structure is absent. Collectively, these data suggest that the basement membrane structure at the midline forms a transient functional barrier against diffusion.

      - 'independent of Lefty1': rephrase or show the midline phenotype after lefty1 inactivation.

      We agree with this comment and have rephrased this section to indicate the midline is present “at a stage when Lefty1 is no longer expressed at the midline.”

      We again would like to extend our sincere gratitude to our reviewers and the editors at eLife for their dedicated time and thorough evaluation of our paper. Their meticulous attention to detail and valuable insights have strengthened our data and provided further support for our findings.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this ms, Tejeda-Muñoz and colleagues examine the roles of macropinocytosis in WNT signalling activation in development (Xenopus) and cancer (CRC sections, cell lines and xenograft experiments). Furthermore, they investigate the effect of the inflammation inducer Phorbol-12-myristate-13-acetate (PMA) in WNT signalling activation through macropinocytosis. They propose that macropinocytosis is a key driver of WNT signalling, including upon oncogenic activation, with relevance in cancer progression.

      I found the analyses and conclusions of the relevance of macropinocytosis in WNT signalling compelling, notably upon constitutive activation both during development and in CRC.

      Thank you.

      However, I think this manuscript only partially characterises the effects of PMA in WNT signalling, largely due to a lack of an epistatic characterisation of PMA roles in Wnt activation. For example: 1- The authors show that PMA cooperate with 1) GSK3 inhibition in Xenopus to promote WNT activation, and 2) (possibly) with APCmut in SW480 to induce b-cat and FAK accumulation. To sustain a specific functional interaction between WNT and PMA, the effects should be tested through additional epistatic experiments. For example, does PMA cooperate with Wnt8 in axis duplication analyses? Does PMA cooperate with any other WNT alteration in CRC or other cell lines? Importantly, does APC re-introduction in SW480 rescue the effect of PMA? Such analyses could be critical to determine specificity of the functional interactions between WNT and PMA. This question could be addressed by performing classical epistatic analyses in cell lines (CRC or HEK) focusing on WNT activity, and by including rescue experiments targeting the WNT pathway downstream of the effects e.g., dnTCF, APC re- introduction, etc.

      We agree that there was need for additional direct evidence of functional interactions of between macropinocytosis, Wnt signaling, and PMA beyond the previously provided target gene assays in Xenopus (now shown in Figure 1I) and luciferase assays in cultured cells (Figure 1J) which used LiCl and inhibition by Bafilomycin. We therefore carried out a new experiment using 3T3 cells, now shown in Figure 1K-P. Wnt3a protein increased the uptake of TMR-dextran 70 kDa, and PMA enhanced this response. The macropinocytosis inhibitor EIPA blocked induction of macropinocytosis by Wnt3a and PMA. These results were quantitated in Figure 1Q. We think this new experiment strengthens the main conclusion that the tumor promoter PMA increases macropinocytosis. Thank you.

      2) While the epistatic analyses of WNT and macropinocytosis are clear in frog, the causal link in CRC cells is contained to b-catenin accumulation. While is clear that macropinocytosis reduces spheroid growth in SW480, the lack of rescue experiments with e.g., constitutive active b-catenin or any other WNT perturbation or/and APC re-introduction, limit the conclusions of this experiment.

      We now provide new experiments in 3T3 cells treated with LiCl, overexpression of constitutively-active β-catenin and constitutively-active Lrp6 (Figure 4, panels I through L’’); the new results indicate that Wnt signaling activation increases protein levels of the macropinocytosis activator Rac1.

      Minor comments:

      3- Different compounds targeting membrane trafficking are used to rescue modes of WNT activation (Wnt8 vs LiCl) in Xenopus.

      The main goal of our experiments was to test the requirement of membrane trafficking for tumor promoter activity through the Wnt pathway. We therefore used PMA, and a variety of inhibitors such as EIPA (Na+/H+ exchanger, Figure 1I and Figure 3D), Bafilomycin A (Figure 1H), DN-Rab7 (Figure 3G) and EHT1864 (a Rac1 inhibitor, Figure 4G). One could argue that using a wide variety of membrane trafficking inhibitors is a plus.

      4- The abstract does not state the results in CRC/xenografts

      We have added a sentence to the abstract.

      5- Labels of Figure 2E might be swap

      Thank you for detecting this error, we now label the last two columns in Figure 2E correctly.

      6- Figure 4i,j, 6 and s4 rely on qualitative analyses instead of quantifications, which underscores their evaluation. On the other hand, the detailed quantifications in Figure S3A-D strongly support the images of Figure 5

      The quantifications of the previous Figure 4I-J supported the data in the initial reviewed preprint, shown in Author response image 1:

      Author response image 1.

      However, these data have now been deleted from this version to make space for new experiments showing the stabilization of Rac1 by stabilized β-catenin and CA-LRP6. Quantifications in Figure 6C-F’’ are not shown because they represent changes in subcellular localization, but a western blot is provided in Figure 6B. Quantifications for Figure 6H-I’’ are shown in panel 6G. Supplemental Figure S4 already has 24 panels so introducing quantifications would be unwieldy.

      Thank you for the thoughtful comments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Tejeda Muñoz et al. investigate the intersection of Wnt signaling, macropinocytosis, lysosomes, focal adhesions and membrane trafficking in embryogenesis and cancer. Following up on their previous papers, the authors present evidence that PMA enhances Wnt signaling and embryonic patterning through macropinocytosis. Proteins that are associated with the endo-lysosomal pathway and Wnt signaling are co-increased in colorectal cancer samples, consistent with their pro-tumorigenic action. The function of macropinocytosis is not well understood in most physiological contexts, and its role in Wnt signaling is intriguing. The authors use a wide range of models - Xenopus embryos, cancer cells in culture and in xenografts and patient samples to investigate several endolysosomal processes that appear to act upstream or downstream of Wnt. A downside of this broad approach is a lack of mechanistic depth. In particular, few experiments monitor macropinocytosis directly, and macropinocytosis manipulations have pleiotropic effects that are open alternative interpretations. Several experiments are confirmatory of previous findings; the manuscript could be improved by focusing on the novel relationship between PMA-induced macropinocytosis and better support these conclusions with additional experiments.

      New additional experiments focusing on the role of PMA are now provided.

      The authors use a range of inhibitors that suppress macropinosome formation (EIPA, Bafilomycin A1, Rac1 inhibition). However, these are not specific macropinocytosis inhibitors (EIPA blocks an Na+/H+ exchanger, which is highly toxic and perturbs cellular pH balance; Bafilomycin blocks the V-ATPase, which has essential functions in the Golgi, endosomes and lysosomes; Rac1 signals through multiple downstream pathways). A specific macropinocytosis inhibitor does not exist, and it is thus important to support key conclusions with dextran uptake experiments.

      We used a wide range of inhibitors because the main idea is to show that membrane trafficking is important in Wnt and PMA activity. We would like to point out that the current experimental definition in the field of macropinocytosis, despite any caveats, is the ability to block dextran uptake with EIPA. Because inhibitors may not be entirely specific, we think using a broad approach to target membrane trafficking might be a plus. We now provide in Figure 1K-Q a new experiment showing that Wnt3a protein treatment increases dextran uptake and PMA stimulates this macropinocytosis in 3T3 cells. EIPA inhibited dextran macropinocytosis in the presence of Wnt and PMA (Figure 1N and 1Q). We also provide a time-lapse video of the rapid macropinocytic vesicles induction by PMA in SW480 CRC cells in which the plasma membrane is tagged (Supplemental Movie S1).

      The title states that PMA increases Wnt signaling through macropinocytosis. However, the mechanistic relationship between PMA-induced macropinocytosis and Wnt signaling is not well supported. The authors refer to a classical paper that demonstrates macropinocytosis induction by PMA in macrophages (PMID: 2613767). Unlike most cell types, macrophages display growth factor-induced and constitutive macropinocytic pathways (PMID: 30967001). It would thus be important to demonstrate macropinocytosis induction by PMA experimentally in Xenopus embryos / cancer cells. Does treatment with EIPA / Bafilomycin / Rac1i decrease the dextran signal in embryos? In macrophages, the PKC inhibitor Calphostin C blocks macropinocytosis induction by PMA (PMID: 25688212). Does Calphostin C block macropinocytosis in embryos / cancer cells? Do the various combinations of Wnts / Wnt agonists and PMA have additive or synergistic effects on dextran uptake? If the authors want to conclude that PMA activates Wnt signaling, it would also be important to demonstrate the effect of PMA on Wnt target gene expression.

      We now provide a new experiment showing macropinocytosis induction of PMA experimentally in cancer cells. CRC SW480 cells, despite having a mutant APC, are able to respond to PMA by further increasing TMR-dextran 70 kDa uptake over background within 1 hour (now shown in Figure S1):

      Investigating PKC and Calphostin C is outside of goals of this paper. With respect to final the point on the effect of PMA on Wnt target gene expression, this was shown in the context of the Xenopus embryo in Figure 1I (Siamois and Xnr3 are direct targets of Wnt).

      Author response image 2.

      The experiments concerning macropinosome formation in Xenopus embryos are not very convincing. Macropinosomes are circular vesicles whose size in mammalian cells ranges from 0.2 - 10 µM (PMID: 18612320). The TMR-dextran signal in Fig. 1A does not obviously label structures that look like macropinosomes; rather the signal is diffusely localized throughout the dorsal compartment, which could be extracellular (or perhaps cytosolic). I have similar concerns for the cell culture experiments, where dextran uptake is only shown for SW480 spheroids in Fig. S2. It would be helpful to quantify size of the circular structures (is this consistent with macropinosomes?).

      In response, we have deleted the TMR experiments in Xenopus embryos; they will be reinvestigated at a later time. With respect to macropinosome sizes in cultured cells, they are indeed large at the plasma membrane level (see new Supplemental Movie S1), but rapidly decrease in size once dextran is concentrated inside the cell. This can be visualized in the new experiments showing dextran vesicles in Supplemental Figure S1J-K and Figure 1K-P.

      In Fig. 4I - J, the dramatic decrease in b-catenin and especially in Rac1 after overnight EIPA treatment is rather surprising. How do the authors explain these findings? Is there any evidence that macropinocytosis stabilizes Rac1? Could this be another effect of EIPA or general toxicity?

      We now provide new evidence that Wnt signaling stabilizes Rac1. The old data relying on overnight EIPA treatment has been replaced by new experiments in 3T3 cells showing (i) that LiCl treatment increases levels of Rac1 protein and β-catenin levels (Figure 4I-J’’), (ii) that cells transfected with constitutively active β-catenin-GFP have higher levels of Rac1 than control untransfected cells (Figure 4K-K’’) and (iii) that Rac1 is stabilized in cells transfected with CA-Lrp6-GFP when compared to untransfected cells (Figure4L-L’’).

      On a similar note, Fig. 6 K - L the FAK staining in control cells appears to localize to focal adhesions, but in PMA-treated cells is strongly localized throughout the cell. Do the authors have any thoughts on how PMA stabilizes FAK and where the kinase localizes under these conditions? Does PMA treatment increase FAK signaling activity?

      The previous Figure 6K-L’’ are now found in Supplementary Figure S4, panels C-D’’. The result is that FAK is greatly stabilized by overnight incubation with PMA. How this achieved is unknown, perhaps the result of increased macropinocytosis, but we do not wish to speculate in the main manuscript. We have not measured FAK activity, but the FAK inhibitor PF-00562271 strongly decreased β-catenin signaling by GSK3 inhibition (Figure 6J) and has strong effects in neural development that mimic inhibition of the early Wnt signal (new experiments shown in Figure 6K-L’’’). The results suggest that FAK activity affects Wnt signaling and dorsal development; the molecular mechanism of this interaction is unknown but worthy of future studies.

      The tumor stainings in Figure 5 are interesting but correlative. Pak1 functions in multiple cellular processes and Pak1 levels are not a direct marker for macropinocytosis. In the discussion, the authors discuss evidence that the V-ATPase translocates to the plasma membrane in cancer to drive extracellular acidification. To which extent does the Voa3 staining reflect lysosomal V-ATPase? Do the authors have controls for antibody specificity?

      It is true that Pak1 has multiple functions, yet it is essential for the actin machinery that drives macropinocytosis. We have now rephrased the discussion to say “Rac1 is an upstream regulator of the Pak1 kinase required for the actin machinery that drive macropinocytosis (Redelman-Sidi et al., 2018)”. We also explain that: “V-ATPase has been associated with acidification of the extracellular milieu in tumors (Capecci and Forgac, 2013; Hinton et al., 2009; Perona and Serrano, 1988). Extracellular acidification is probably due to increased numbers of lysosomes which are exocytosed, since V0a3 was located within the cytoplasm in advanced cancer or xenografts in mice (Figures 5I and S3I)”. The antibody we used for V0a3 is highly specific and has been used widely (Ramirez et al., 2019).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The manuscript by Tejeda-Munoz examines signaling by Wnt and macropinocytosis in Xenopus embryos and colon cancer cells. A major problem with the study is the extensive use of pleiotropic inhibitors as "specific" inhibitors of macropinocytosis in embryos. It is true that BafA and EIPA block macropinocytosis, but they do many other things as well. A major target of EIPA is the NheI Na+/proton transporter, which also regulates invasive structures (podosomes, invadopodia) which could have major roles in development. Similarly, Baf1 will disrupt lysosomes and the endocytic system, which secondary effects on mTOR signaling and growth factor receptor trafficking. The authors cannot assume that processes inhibited by these drugs demonstrate a role of macropinocytosis. While correlations in tumor samples between increased expression of PAK1 and V0a3 and decreased expression of GSK3 are consistent with a link between macropinocytosis and Wnt-driven malignancy, the cell and embryo-based experiments do not convincingly make this connection. Finally, the data on FAK and TES are not well integrated with the rest of the manuscript.

      The criticism that drugs are not entirely specific is a valid one. Our approach of using a variety of drugs such as EIPA, BafA, EHT1864 or FAK inhibitor PF-00562271 all point to the main conclusion that the membrane trafficking is important in signaling by Wnt and the action of the tumor promoter PMA. The data on FAK, TES and focal adhesions have been better integrated in the manuscript and new experiments on the effect of FAK inhibitor in embryonic dorsal development are now provided (Figure 6K-L’’’).

      1) The data in Fig. 1A do not convincingly demonstrate macropinocytosis - it is impossible to tell what is being labeled by the dextran.

      In response, we have deleted the TMR-dextran experiments in Xenopus embryos; they will be reported at a later time.

      2) The data in Fig. 2 do not make sense. LiCL2 bypasses the WNT activation pathway by inhibiting GSK3. If subsequent treatment with BafA blocks the effects of GSK3 inhibition, then BafrA is doing something unrelated to Wnt activation, whose target is the inhibition/sequestration of GSK3. While BafA might block GSK3 sequestration by inhibiting MVB function, it should have no effect on the inhibition of GSK3 by LiCl2.

      We now explain in the main text describing Figure 2 in the results, the initial effect of GSK3 inhibition by LiCl is to trigger macropinocytosis (Albrecht et al., 2020). If the downstream acidification of lysosomes is inhibited, then the brief treatment with LiCl (7 min at 32-cell stage) has no effect (LiCl 1st+BafA 2nd, Figure 2H). BafA inhibits lysosomal acidification at 32-cell stage resulting in ventralization, but the effect of brief BafA treatment can be reversed by inducing membrane trafficking by LiCl (BafA 1st+LiCl 2nd, Figure 2C). The labelling of the figure panels C and H has been modified to indicate this is an order-of-addition experiment. These order-of-addition experiments strongly support the proposal that endogenous lysosomal activity is required to generate the initial endogenous Wnt signal that takes place at the 32-cell stage of development (Tejeda-Muñoz and De Robertis, 2022a).

      3) The effect of EHT on MP in SW480 cells is not clearly related to what is happening in the embryos. The nearly total loss of staining for Rac and -catenin after overnight EIPA does not implicate MP in protein stability - critical controls for cell viability and overall protein turnover are absent. Inhibition of WNT signaling might be expected to enhance -catenin turnover, but the effect on Rac1 is surprising. A more quantitative analysis by western blotting is required.

      The results from SW480 cells inhibition by EIPA have been replaced in Figure 4. We now provide new evidence in 3T3 cells that Wnt signaling stabilizes Rac1. The old data relying on EIPA treatment in SW480 cells has been replaced by new experiments in 3T3 cells showing (i) that LiCl treatment increases levels of Rac1 protein and β-catenin levels (Figure 4I-J’’), (ii) that cells transfected with constitutively active β-catenin-GFP have higher levels of Rac1 than control untransfected cells (Figure 4K-K’’) and (iii) that Rac1 is stabilized in cells transfected with CA-Lrp6-GFP when compared to untransfected cells (Figure4L-L’’). In the original EIPA experiment in SW480 cells, now deleted from this version of the manuscript, we tested the cell viability using a Vi-Cell Beckman-Coulter Viability Analyzer and found that cells were 96-98% viable but proliferation was strongly decreased after 12 h of EIPA treatment. The effect of brief Rac1 inhibition (7 min) in decreasing dorsal development in embryos at the critical 32-cell stage is robust (Figure 4A-C). In addition, coinjection of EHT is able to entirely block the effects of microinjected xWnt8 mRNA (compare Figure 4E to 4G, see also Figure 4H), suggesting that Rac1 is required for Wnt signaling. Quantitative target gene expression analysis is provided for the embryo experiments (Figure 4C and 4H); for the stabilization of Rac1 by Wnt we are not providing quantitative measurements, but found similar results with 3 independent approaches (LiCl, CA-β-catenin and CA-Lrp6).

      4) The data on FAK inhibition and TES trafficking are poorly integrated with the rest of the paper.

      We attempted to better relate the TES trafficking to our previous paper showing that canonical Wnt signaling induces focal adhesion and Integrin-β1 endocytosis. We now write in the results: “We have previously reported a crosstalk between the Wnt and focal adhesion (FA) signaling pathways. Wnt3a treatment rapidly led to the endocytosis of Integrin β1 and of multiple focal adhesion proteins into MVBs (Tejeda-Muñoz et al., 2022). FAs link the actin cytoskeleton with the extracellular matrix (Figure 6A), and we now investigated whether FA activity is affected by Wnt signaling, PMA treatment and CRC progression”.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The reliance on pleiotropic inhibitors is a weakness and should be supplemented by genetic approaches to inhibit macropinocytosis.

      We agree, but that would be outside of the scope of this study.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary:

      The authors demonstrate that the immunosuppressive environment in pancreatic ductal adenocarcinoma (PDAC) can be mitigated by a combination of ionizing radiation (IR), CCR5 inhibition, and PD1 blockade. This combination therapy increases tissue-resident natural killer (trNK) cells that facilitate CD8 T cell activity, resulting in a reduction of E-cadherin positive tumor cells. They identify a specific "hypofunctional" NK cell population in both mouse and human PDAC that supports CD8 T cell involvement. A trNK signature is found to be associated with better survival outcomes in PDAC and other solid tumors.   

      Strengths: 

      Overall, I think this is an interesting study that combines testing of therapeutic concepts in mice with bioinformatics analysis of single-cell transcriptome data in primary tumors and exploration of clinical outcomes using signature genes in TCGA data. The key finding is that immunoregulatory properties of tumor-infiltrating/resident CD56-bright NK cells (assumed to be non-cytotoxic) are beneficial for outcome through cross-talk with DC and recruitment of CD8 T cells. The latter is specifically induced by irradiation combined with CCR5i and PD1 blockade. 

      "These results collectively support the notion that IR/CCR5i/αPD1 combination treatment alters immune infiltration by reducing Tregs and increasing NK and CD8 T cells, thereby resulting in greater local tumor control." I agree with this conclusion.  

      Weaknesses:  

      There are a few points to discuss and that the authors may want to address. 

      (1)   "Notably, CCR5i significantly reduced Treg infiltration but had no effect on the infiltration of other immune cells, indicating the active recruitment of CCR5+ Tregs in PDAC (Figure 2B)." 

      CCR5i treatment seems to inhibit infiltration of CD8 T cells and NK cells to a greater extent, in relative terms, compared to Treg, albeit it is not statistically significant. If this visual inspection of the graph does not reflect reality, additional experiments may be needed to verify the selective targeting of Tregs or confirm the fact that also CD8 T cells and NK cells are affected by single agent CCR5i. The reduced recruitment of Treg, NK cells, and CD8T cells was completely reversed when combined with irradiation. In the data shown in Figure 3E it seems as if CCR5i induced infiltration of Tregs along with other immune cells. However, this said, I agree with the conclusion of the authors that this combined treatment leads to an altered immune composition and ratio between Tregs and effector cells (CD8T cells and NK cells). Could this altered composition be displayed more clearly? 

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their comments and agree that there is a trend for reduced NK and T-cell infiltration during CCR5i standalone treatment (as seen in Figure 2B), although it does not reach significance. To reflect this more clearly, we have added n.s (non-significant) for the NK cells and CD8+ T-cells and adjusted the text to reflect a trend for decreased NK and CD8+ T-cell infiltration (See Lines 162-165). Moreover, to reflect the data accurately, we have taken the Treg data out of the original Figure 2B and present it separately as a percentage of CD45+CD3+ T-cells.

      (2) The definition of active and hypofunctional NK cells based on solely NKG2D expression alone seems like an oversimplification. I realize it is not trivial to test tumor-infiltrating NK cells from these tumors functionally but perhaps scRNAseq of the tumors would allow for characterization of cytotoxicity scores using KEGG or GO analysis or reversed gene set enrichment in responders/non-responders.  

      We agree that scRNA-seq of tumors would add to the overall characterization of the tumor-infiltrating NK cells and their characterization, however we are currently unfortunately not in the position to carry out this experiment. We did however immunophenotype the tumor infiltrating NK cell population in more depth by also looking at NKp46 and NKG2D surface expression. This newly added data demonstrates not only increased infiltration of “bona-fide” trNK cells (based on surface expression of CD103+CD49a+) under the triple treatment combination, but more importantly these trNK have reduced levels of CD69, NKp46, NKG2D and increased TIM-3 surface expression compared to conventional NK cells – suggesting that these trNKs could be more hypoactive compared to the conventional NK cells. These data have been added to the manuscript as Figure 4E, F; Figure supplement 4E-G and Lines 244-260 in the revised manuscript. To clarify this difference, we have replaced the word “hypofunctional” with “hypoactive” throughout the manuscript.

      (3) It seems as if the abstract refers to this phenotype incorrectly since the "hyporesponsive" subset is described as NKG2C-negative. 

      We apologize for the typographic confusion and have corrected our abstract and changed the subset to NKG2D-negative (as was intended).

      (4) "The NK_C1 cluster correlates best with the hypofunction NK phenotype observed in mice as similarly displayed reduced activation (reduced NKG7, NKp80, GZMA, and PRF1) with additional expression of tissue residency markers CD103, CD49a and, surprisingly, the adaptive activating receptor NKG2C (KLRC2) (Figure 5B, C)." 

      There is no doubt that NK_C1 represents tumor-infiltrating NK cells with a CD56bright gene signature with a strong tissue resident score. However, the transcriptional expression of KLRC2 on these is not surprising! It is well established that KLRC2 transcripts (but not protein) are highly expressed on conventional CD56bright NK cells. There are several published sources where the authors can find such data for confirmation. Thus, this is not to be confused with adaptive NK cells having an entirely different transcriptional signature and expressing high levels of NKG2C at the cell surface. I strongly recommend reinterpreting the results based on the fact that KLRC2 is expressed at high levels in conventional CD56bright NK cells. If not, it would be important to verify that these tissueresident NK cells express NKG2C and not NKG2A at the cell surface. 

      We agree with the reviewer and have modified the text accordingly in the revised manuscript (Lines 279-283), including references to tissue-resident adaptive-like cells as described previously in literature. 

      (5) NCAM1 transcript alone is not sufficient to deconvolute CD56bright NK cells in TCGA data (Figure 7A). As a single marker, it likely reflects NK cell infiltration without providing further evidence on the contribution of the bright/dim components. Therefore, the use of the bright Tr NK signature described in Table 1 is very important (Figure 7B). Table 1 is not provided. Nor Supplementary Table 1. There is only one supplementary figure in the ppt attached.

      We agree that a high NCAM1/CD56 single gene signature could also represent NK cell infiltration. We have rephrased this in the text accordingly (Lines 354-357). We apologize for the missing tables and Supplementary figures. We have added these now to the manuscript as Supplementary table 1.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review)  

      Summary: 

      This work elaborates on a combined therapeutic approach comprising ionizing radiation and CCR5i/αPD1 immunotherapy as a promising strategy in pancreatic cancer. Previous research has established that NK cell-derived CCL5 and XCL1 play a crucial role in recruiting cDC1 cells to the tumor microenvironment, contributing to tumor control. In this study, by using a murine pancreatic cancer model, the authors propose that the addition of radiation therapy to CCR5i and αPD1 immunotherapy could upregulate CD8+ T cells and a subgroup of NK cells within the tumor and result in better tumor control. They further analyzed human single-cell sequencing data from pancreatic cancer patients and identified one subgroup of NK cells (NK C1) with tissue-resident features. Subsequent cell-cell contact analysis reveals the NK-cDC1-CD8 cell axis in pancreatic cancer. By analyzing TCGA data, they found that high NK C1 signature levels were associated with better survival in pancreatic cancer patients. Thus, radiotherapy could benefit the outcome of patients bearing low NK C1 signatures. Importantly, the positive correlation between NK C1 score with survival extends beyond pancreatic cancer, showing potential applicability across various solid cancers.  

      Strengths: 

      This study could add new insight into the clinical practice by introducing such novel combined therapy and shed light on the underlying immune cell dynamics. These findings hold potential for more effective and targeted treatment in the future. Mouse experiments nicely confirmed that such combined therapy could significantly reduce tumor volume. The elegant use of single-cell sequencing analysis and human database examination enriches the narrative and strengthens the study's foundation. Additionally, the notion that NK C1 signature correlates with patient survival in various solid cancers is of high interest and relevance.  

      Weaknesses: 

      The role of CCR5i requires further clarification. While the authors demonstrated its capacity to reduce Treg in murine tumors, its impact on other cell populations, including NK cells and CD8+ T cells, was not observed. Nevertheless, the effect of CCR5i on tumor growth in Figure 2B should be shown. If the combination of radiotherapy and αPD1 already can achieve good outcomes as shown in Figure 3A, the necessity to include CCR5i is questioned. Overall, a more comprehensive elucidation of the roles of CCL5 and CCR5i in this context would be good.  

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their comments and agree that standalone CCR5i also shows a trend of reduced infiltrating NK cells and CD8+ T-cells, although this does not reach significance. We have mentioned this trend in the manuscript (see Lines 162-165) and added n.s to Figure 2B as well. In regards to adding CCR5i; although we observe volumetric control by radiotherapy and anti-PD1, we observe an increase in necrosis induction only in the triple combination compared to radiotherapy combined with anti-PD1 – suggesting that there is an additive effect of CCR5i in our model only as a combination modality. We therefore believe that addition of CCR5i to radiotherapy and anti-PD1 has a beneficial effect. The growth curves for CCR5i alone were already presented in Figure 3A, and we have modified our manuscript to refer to this (see Lines 165-167).

      (1) In line with this, spatial plots in Figure 4 did not include the group with only radiotherapy and αPD1. This inclusion would facilitate a clearer comparison and better highlight the essential role of CCR5i. 

      We agree with the reviewer that inclusion of radiotherapy and αPD1 would facilitate a clear comparison of our data and our experiments did include single controls for radiotherapy and αPD1; however, unfortunately, the tissue slides were of bad quality and therefore not suitable for quantification. In line with this, we have added references to other studies that investigated the effect of immune checkpoint inhibitors in combination with radiotherapy (see Lines 169-172).

      (2) NK C1 cells should be also analyzed in the mouse model. The authors suggest that NKNKG2Dve could be the cell population. Staining of inhibitory markers should be considered, for example, TIGIT and TIM3 as presented in Figure 5B. 

      As per the reviewer suggestion, we have now included some additional data on the surface expression of inhibitory markers/activating receptor on tumor-infiltrating NK cells in our model under the triple combination. These additional data demonstrate increased infiltration of trNK under the triple combination that seem to be more ‘hypoactive’ than conventional NK cells.  This data has been added as Figure 4E in the revised Figure.

      (3) While the cell-cell contact analysis generated from single-cell sequencing data is insightful, extending this analysis to the mouse model under therapy would be highly informative. NK and CD8 cells in the tumor increased upon the combined therapy. However, cDC1 was not characterized. Analysis regarding cDC1 would provide more information on the NK/cDC1/CD8 axis. 

      We agree that looking into cDC1 would be highly interesting in our treatment model and its characterization is currently under investigation. The importance about the interaction between cDC1-NK cells has been described before by various groups, and we have provided additional references for that in our manuscript (see Lines 449-455)

      (4) Human database analysis showed a positive correlation between NK C1 score and CCL5 in pancreatic cancer. Furthermore, radiotherapy could benefit the outcome of patients bearing low NK C1 scores. It would be interesting to test if radiotherapy could also benefit patients with low CCL5 levels in this cohort. 

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their suggestion and please see the figure below for the comparison. Patients with CCL5high are enriched for NK_C1 (Figure 7D) and CCL5high patients with NK_C1high have significantly increased overall and disease-free survival compared to NK_C1low (Figure 7E); where those with NK_C1low significantly benefit from radiotherapy (Figure 7B). Accordingly, patients with CCL5high have significantly decreased overall survival compared to CCL5low patients, again confirming CCL5 as a prognostic marker (Figure 1A, Figure R1). When we look at CCL5low patients however, there is no additional significant benefit for radiotherapy (see insert below) in the CCL5low group (not significant; only significant p-values are shown). These data collectively support the strong correlation between CCL5 levels and NK_C1 enrichment, and imply that radiotherapy alone is insufficient to drive NK_C1 cells in the absence of high CCL5 gradients to improve overall survival. However, given the increased overall survival of CCL5low compared to CCL5high it is likely that other factors are at play. Future studies will be required to further elucidate the role of CCL5 gradients on NK_C1 cells and the beneficial effect of radiotherapy.

      Author response image 1.

      Overall survival of CCL5high versus CCL5low patients stratified into groups with and without radiotherapy using TCGA-PAAD. Log-rank p-value indicates the significance level across all groups while individual significant comparisons are shown as indicated.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary

      In the submitted manuscript by Go et al, the authors evaluated the tumor microenvironment in pancreatic ductal adenocarcinoma (PDAC) and made a number of interesting observations, including the following: 1) CCL5 expression within the tumor microenvironment negatively correlated with clinical outcomes in human patients with PDAC; 2) there were both positive and negative correlations between CCL5 expression and the expression of specific genes (e.g. those encoding CD56 and CD16, respectively) included among gene signature lists for Treg, MDSC, TAM, and NK cells; 3) CCR5 inhibition with the inhibitor, maraviroc, reduced Treg infiltration but not that of other immune cell types in an orthotopic murine model of PDAC; 4) CCR5 inhibition augmented anti-PD1 immunotherapy when combined with ionizing radiation (IR) therapy in the murine model; 5) the above therapy resulted in increased infiltration of CD8+ cytotoxic T cells as well as of a subset of NKG2D-negative, tissueresidency (tr) marker expressing NK cells (deemed Cluster 1 NK in their data sets) that inversely correlated with the number of E-cadherin+ cells (i.e. tumor cells) and showed predicted interactions with cDC1 dendritic cells (including XCL1/XCL2 expressed by the NK and XCR1 expressed by the cDC1); 6) the authors identified a number of putative signals stemming from the trNK (e.g. IL-16, TNFSF14, FASLG, CSF, MIF) as well as incoming from cDC1s to NK (e.g. BAG6-NKp30); 7) these trNK cells positively correlated with good outcomes and with CD8+ T cell infiltrations in human PDAC as well as in many other solid tumor types; and 8) importantly, the benefit of IR therapy was specific to the subset of PDAC patients (represented in the TCGA dataset) that were predicted to have low amounts of trNK cells. The authors used murine experimental models, multiplexed imaging analyses, and a number of publicly available sequencing data sets from human tumor samples to perform their investigations. Based on their findings, the authors proposed that combining IR with CCR5 inhibition and anti-PD1 immunotherapy is a promising strategy to treat solid cancers.  

      Strengths

      Overall, the collective analyses and conclusions appear to be novel and could be of high and rapid impact on the field, particularly in terms of directing clinical trials to incorporate IR with CCR5 inhibition and immunotherapy. The manuscript is well written; the figures are for the most part clear; and the Discussion is very thoughtful.   

      Weaknesses

      There were a number of minor typographical errors, missing references, or minor issues with the figures. In general, while many of the observations provided strong suggestive evidence of relationships, phenotypes, and functions, the authors often used language to indicate that such things were confirmed, validated, or proven. In fact, there was a paucity of such functional/confirmatory experiments. This does not necessarily detract from the overall significance, excitement for, and potential impact of the study; but the language could likely be adjusted to be more in keeping with the true nature of the findings. The main title and running title are a bit different; consider making them more similar.

      We apologize for the typographical errors, missing references and issues with the figures. We have revised our manuscript, with a major focus on adjusting our language to more carefully reflect our data, and hope to have addressed all the concerns of the reviewer. The slight discrepancy between the main title and running title are to be able to convey the contents of this manuscript in a comprehensive way. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):  

      Please make sure all files are made available. Also please check available datasets describing KLRC2 transcripts in CD56brights. This is not to be confused with an adaptive-like signature. 

      We have added the missing table to the supplementary figures and revised the manuscript text in regards to KLRC2 transcript in our NK_C1 cluster and its implications for an adaptive-like signature in the context of tissue-residency (see Lines 279-283; 465-474).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Additional experiments as mentioned in the 'weakness' section could help to further strengthen this study. Besides these points, I would recommend the following: 

      (1) The description in the figure should be more precise and clear. Especially in Figure 3A, it seems the addition of IR into CCR5i or CCR5i/aPD1 leads to a bigger tumor volume.  

      We have adjusted the figure descriptions to more clearly describe the figures. We apologise for the confusion in Figure 3A, this was a figure legend error and has been correctly rectified in the revised Figures (i.e. closed symbols represent +IR conditions).

      (2) The definition of Tregs in figures should be described, e.g. it is not specified which population is shown in Figure S2c.  

      We have added a definition of Tregs (i.e. Live/CD45+CD3+CD4+FOXP3+) in our revised manuscript (see Lines 162-165). To avoid confusion, we have removed the subsequent gating of CCR5 and PD-1 of Tregs in our revised Supplementary Figures.

      (3) Please add a bar in all histology figures, for example, Figure 2A, S2A, S3E. It seems in Figure S3D, E, the green group is missing.  

      We have added the scale bar to all the indicated figures. Unfortunately, indeed as correctly pointed out by the reviewer, we are missing the green group (i.e. IR+CCR5i) as we felt that the excessive growth seen with CCR5i alone may have given a false impression of the extent of infiltration, therefore we did not include this in the original analysis and do not have the data in the Figure.

      (4) Please check through the manuscript, there are some grammar mistakes.  

      We apologise for the grammar mistakes in our original manuscript and have carefully revised the current manuscript to avoid grammar mistakes

      (5) Figure S7B, the left cell lacks a name.  

      We have annotated the left cell accordingly in our revised supplementary figure.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) Abbreviations (e.g. PDAC) should be spelled out the first time introduced in the manuscript.

      We have adjusted this in our revised manuscript.

      (2) Referring to the tissue-resident NK cells as "hypofunctional" may not be useful...they seem to be functional, just not in the conventional sense. The authors may want to consider another term, such as non-cytotoxic (given the low expression of cytolytic granules, etc) or immunoregulatory (as they actually refer to them on line 310).

      We agree with the reviewer and have revised the manuscript to refer to them as “immunoregulatory” or “hypoactive” when appropriate. The latter is supported by the additional experiments as shown in Figure 4E.

      (3) Barry et al 2018 Nat Med demonstrated that NK cells in melanoma could support cDC1s and promote positive clinical outcomes in the setting of immunotherapy. It would likely be beneficial to also cite this paper (e.g. on line 425). 

      Thank you for the suggestion, which would work in line with our hypothesis of crosstalk between NK_C1 and cDC1. We have looked for FLT3L in our NK_C1 cluster and did not find any enrichment for FLT3L transcript (see Figure 5E). Nevertheless, we have added the reference in the discussion of our manuscript to further support the importance of crosstalk between cDC1 and NK cells (see Lines 449455)

      (4) Figure 2B: by eye, it looks like the difference between CD8+ T cells in the two conditions would be significantly different; is this not the case? Same thing for the NK cells...what are the pvalues? 

      We have added n.s. to our revised Figure 2B. The p-values for CD8+ T-cells and NK cells were 0.14 and 0.19 {2-tailed students t-test), respectively.

      (5) The murine data strongly suggest that the combination therapy promotes trNK cell infiltration into the tumors, in turn resulting in cDC1-mediated CD8+ T cell infiltration and/or activation. It could be highly valuable/useful to functionally determine (e.g. by depleting NK cells in this model) if NK cells are required for the effects seen. 

      We agree that depletion of NK cells could really solidify the findings even more, and it is part of ongoing investigations for future projects. However, it would be imperative to first characterise these NK cells in more depth as conventional global ablation of NK cells is excepted to highly impact immunosurveillance as well. This is part of current ongoing work.

      (6) Figure 7B: how were "high" and "low" defined (for the NK signature)?

      An enrichment score of the NK_C1 gene signature (see Table supplement 1) was first calculated per patient sample in the TCGA RNA-seq dataset using the Gene Set Variation Analysis (GSVA) method. A cut-off value was then determined using the maximally selected rank statistics (max-stat R package) method to divide patients into “high” and “low”. 

      (7) Lines 164-165 of the Results: it would be good to include a reference supporting the statement.

      We have added rephrased the manuscript and added corresponding references (see Lines 170-173 in revised manuscript).

      (8) There are many conclusions and very speculative language based only on sequencing results, and these have not been validated (e.g. in the Discussion, lines 447-453). As another example, it was concluded that a decrease in NKG2D+ NK cells implied a reduction in overall NK cell cytolytic activity and that NKG2D- NK cells were hypofunctional and did not kill well. This was not tested. Generally, it would be useful for the authors to use language that conveys that the data are primarily suggestive (rather than "confirmatory", line 447) of relationships, phenotypes, and functions at this point. 

      We thank the reviewer for their concerns and have carefully adapted the manuscript text to more clearly clarify the findings in a careful manner.

      (9) On lines 246-247 the authors refer to cluster 3 NK cells, which express CD16, as "immature". The rationale for this designation is not provided, and most human NK cell development models hold that CD16+ NK cells represent the most mature subset(s). 

      We apologize for the typographic error – later on we refer to the NK_C3 cluster as cytotoxic NK cells and we have corrected this in our revised manuscript (see Lines 273-275).

      (10) On line 351, the authors reference supplemental Figure 7C...but I don't see this figure in the accompanying powerpoint file. 

      This should have been Supplementary Figure 7B, and we have corrected it in the revised manuscript (see Lines 374-377)

      (11) On line 417, the authors reference NKp40; this is likely a typographical error. 

      This has been corrected in the revised manuscript to NKp46 (see Lines 439-442).

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Overall Response

      We thank the reviewers for reviewing our manuscript, recognizing the significance of our study, and offering valuable suggestions. Based on the reviewer’s comments and the updated eLife assessment, we would like to chose the current version of our manuscript as the Version of Record of our manuscript.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Given knowledge of the amino acid sequence and of some version of the 3D structure of two monomers that are expected to form a complex, the authors investigate whether it is possible to accurately predict which residues will be in contact in the 3D structure of the expected complex. To this effect, they train a deep learning model which takes as inputs the geometric structures of the individual monomers, per-residue features (PSSMs) extracted from MSAs for each monomer, and rich representations of the amino acid sequences computed with the pre-trained protein language models ESM-1b, MSA Transformer, and ESM-IF. Predicting inter-protein contacts in complexes is an important problem. Multimer variants of AlphaFold, such as AlphaFold-Multimer, are the current state of the art for full protein complex structure prediction, and if the three-dimensional structure of a complex can be accurately predicted then the inter-protein contacts can also be accurately determined. By contrast, the method presented here seeks state-of-the-art performance among models that have been trained end-to-end for inter-protein contact prediction.

      Strengths:

      The paper is carefully written and the method is very well detailed. The model works both for homodimers and heterodimers. The ablation studies convincingly demonstrate that the chosen model architecture is appropriate for the task. Various comparisons suggest that PLMGraph-Inter performs substantially better, given the same input, than DeepHomo, GLINTER, CDPred, DeepHomo2, and DRN-1D2D_Inter.

      The authors control for some degree of redundancy between their training and test sets, both using sequence and structural similarity criteria. This is more careful than can be said of most works in the field of PPI prediction.

      As a byproduct of the analysis, a potentially useful heuristic criterion for acceptable contact prediction quality is found by the authors: namely, to have at least 50% precision in the prediction of the top 50 contacts.

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the strengths of our work!

      Weaknesses:

      The authors check for performance drops when the test set is restricted to pairs of interacting proteins such that the chain pair is not similar as a pair (in sequence or structure) to a pair present in the training set. A more challenging test would be to restrict the test set to pairs of interacting proteins such that none of the chains are separately similar to monomers present in the training set. In the case of structural similarity (TM-scores), this would amount to replacing the two "min"s with "max"s in Eq. (4). In the case of sequence similarity, one would simply require that no monomer in the test set is in any MMSeqs2 cluster observed in the training set. This may be an important check to make, because a protein may interact with several partners, and/or may use the same sites for several distinct interactions, contributing to residual data leakage in the test set.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! In the case of protein-protein prediction (“0D prediction”) or protein-protein interfacial residue prediction(“1D prediction”), we think making none of the chains in the test set separately similar to monomers in the training set is necessary, as the reviewer pointed out that a protein may interact with several partners, and may even use the same sites for the interactions. Since the task of this study is predicting the inter-protein residue-residue contacts (“2D prediction”), even though a protein uses the same site to interact with different partners, as long as the interacting partners are different, the inter-protein contact maps would be different. Therefore, we don’t think that in our task, making this restriction to the test set is necessary.

      The training set of AFM with v2 weights has a global cutoff of 30 April 2018, while that of PLMGraph-Inter has a cutoff of March 7 2022. So there may be structures in the test set for PLMGraph-Inter that are not in the training set of AFM with v2 weights (released between May 2018 and March 2022). The "Benchmark 2" dataset from the AFM paper may have a few additional structures not in the training or test set for PLMGraph-Inter. I realize there may be only few structures that are in neither training set, but still think that showing the comparison between PLMGraph-Inter and AFM there would be important, even if no statistically significant conclusions can be drawn.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! It is not enough to only use the date cutoff to remove the redundancy, since similar structures can be deposited in the PDB in different dates. Because AFM does not release the PDB codes of its training set, it is difficult for us to totally remove the redundancy. Therefore, we think no rigorous conclusion can be drawn by including these comparisons in the manuscript. Besides, the main point of this study is to demonstrate that the integration of multiple protein language models using protein geometric graphs can dramatically improve the model performance for inter-protein contact prediction, which can provide some important enlightenments for the future development of more powerful protein complex structure prediction methods beyond AFM, rather than providing a tool which can beat AFM at this moment. We think including too many stuffs in the comparison with AFM may distract the readers. Therefore, we choose to not include these comparisons in the manuscript.

      Finally, the inclusion of AFM confidence scores is very good. A user would likely trust AFM predictions when the confidence score is high, but look for alternative predictions when it is low. The authors' analysis (Figure 6, panels c and d) seems to suggest that, in the case of heterodimers, when AFM has low confidence, PLMGraph-Inter improves precision by (only) about 3% on average. By comparison, the reported gains in the "DockQ-failed" and "precision-failed" bins are based on knowledge of the ground truth final structure, and thus are not actionable in a real use-case.

      We agree with the reviewer that more studies are needed for providing a model which can well complement or even beat AFM. The main point of this study is to demonstrate that the integration of multiple protein language models using protein geometric graphs can dramatically improve the model performance for inter-protein contact prediction, which can provide some important enlightenments for the future development of more powerful protein complex structure prediction methods beyond AFM.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This work introduces PLMGraph-Inter, a new deep learning approach for predicting inter-protein contacts, which is crucial for understanding proteinprotein interactions. Despite advancements in this field, especially driven by AlphaFold, prediction accuracy and efficiency in terms of computational cost still remains an area for improvement. PLMGraph-Inter utilizes invariant geometric graphs to integrate the features from multiple protein language models into the structural information of each subunit. When compared against other inter-protein contact prediction methods, PLMGraph-Inter shows better performance which indicates that utilizing both sequence embeddings and structural embeddings is important to achieve high-accuracy predictions with relatively smaller computational costs for the model training.

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the strengths of our work!

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • I recommend renaming the section "Further potential redundancies removal between the training and the test" to "Further potential redundancies removal between the training and the test sets"

      Changed.

      • In lines 768-769, the sentence seems to end prematurely in "to use more stringent threshold in the redundancy removal"

      Corrected.

      • In Eq. (4), line 789, there are many instances of dashes that look like minus signs, creating some confusion.

      Corrected.

      • I think I may have mixed up figure references in my first review. When I said (Recommendations to the authors): "p. 22, line 2: from the figure, I would have guessed "greater than or equal to 0.7", not 0.8", I think I was referring to what is now lines 423-424, referring to what is now Figure 5c. The point stands there, I think.

      Corrected.

      • A couple of new grammatical mishaps have been introduced in the revision. These could be rectified.

      We carefully rechecked our revisions, and corrected the grammatical issues we found.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Most of my concerns were resolved through the revision. I have only one suggestion for the main figure.

      The current scatter plots in Figure 2 are hard to understand as too many different methods are abstracted into a single plot with multiple colors. I would suggest comparing their performances using box plot or violin plot for the figure 2.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! In the revision, we tried violin plot, but it does not look good since too many different methods are included in the plot. Besides, we chose the scatter plot as it can provide much more details. We also provided the individual head-to-head scatter plots as supplementary figures, we think which can also be helpful for the readers to capture the information of the figures.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Overall Response

      We would like to thank the reviewers for reviewing our manuscript, recognizing the significance of our study, and offering valuable suggestions. We have carefully revised the manuscript to address all the concerns and suggestions raised by the reviewers.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Given knowledge of the amino acid sequence and of some version of the 3D structure of two monomers that are expected to form a complex, the authors investigate whether it is possible to accurately predict which residues will be in contact in the 3D structure of the expected complex. To this effect, they train a deep learning model that takes as inputs the geometric structures of the individual monomers, per-residue features (PSSMs) extracted from MSAs for each monomer, and rich representations of the amino acid sequences computed with the pre-trained protein language models ESM-1b, MSA Transformer, and ESM-IF. Predicting inter-protein contacts in complexes is an important problem. Multimer variants of AlphaFold, such as AlphaFold-Multimer, are the current state of the art for full protein complex structure prediction, and if the three-dimensional structure of a complex can be accurately predicted then the inter-protein contacts can also be accurately determined. By contrast, the method presented here seeks state-of-the-art performance among models that have been trained end-to-end for inter-protein contact prediction.

      Strengths:

      The paper is carefully written and the method is very well detailed. The model works both for homodimers and heterodimers. The ablation studies convincingly demonstrate that the chosen model architecture is appropriate for the task. Various comparisons suggest that PLMGraph-Inter performs substantially better, given the same input than DeepHomo, GLINTER, CDPred, DeepHomo2, and DRN-1D2D_Inter. As a byproduct of the analysis, a potentially useful heuristic criterion for acceptable contact prediction quality is found by the authors: namely, to have at least 50% precision in the prediction of the top 50 contacts.

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the strengths of our work!

      Weaknesses:

      My biggest issue with this work is the evaluations made using bound monomer structures as inputs, coming from the very complexes to be predicted. Conformational changes in protein-protein association are the key element of the binding mechanism and are challenging to predict. While the GLINTER paper (Xie & Xu, 2022) is guilty of the same sin, the authors of CDPred (Guo et al., 2022) correctly only report test results obtained using predicted unbound tertiary structures as inputs to their model. Test results using experimental monomer structures in bound states can hide important limitations in the model, and thus say very little about the realistic use cases in which only the unbound structures (experimental or predicted) are available. I therefore strongly suggest reducing the importance given to the results obtained using bound structures and emphasizing instead those obtained using predicted monomer structures as inputs.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! In the revision, to emphasize the performance of PLMGraph-Inter using the predicted monomer structures, we moved the evaluation results based on the predicted monomer from the supplementary to the main text (see the new Table 1 and Figure 2 in the revised manuscript) and re-organized the two subsections “Evaluation of PLMGraph-Inter on HomoPDB and HeteroPDB test sets” and “Impact of the monomeric structure quality on contact prediction” in the main text.

      In particular, the most relevant comparison with AlphaFold-Multimer (AFM) is given in Figure S2, not Figure 6. Unfortunately, it substantially shrinks the proportion of structures for which AFM fails while PLMGraph-Inter performs decently. Still, it would be interesting to investigate why this occurs. One possibility would be that the predicted monomer structures are of bad quality there, and PLMGraph-Inter may be able to rely on a signal from its language model features instead. Finally, AFM multimer confidence values ("iptm + ptm") should be provided, especially in the cases in which AFM struggles.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! It is worth noting that AFM automatically searches monomer templates in the prediction, and when we checked our AFM runs, we found that 99% of the targets in our study (including all the targets in the four datasets: HomoPDB, HeteroPDB, DHTest and DB5.5) at least 20 templates were identified (AFM employed the top 20 templates in the prediction), and 87.8% of the targets employed the native templates (line 455-462 in page 25 in the subsection of “Comparison of PLMGraph-Inter with AlphaFold-Multimer”). Therefore, we think Figure 6 not Figure S5 (the original Figure S2) shows a fairer comparison. Besides, it is also worth noting the targets used in this study would have a large overlap with the training set of AlphaFold-Multimer, since AFM used all protein complex structures in PDB deposited before 2018-04-30 in the model training, which would further cause the overestimation of the performance of AFM (line 450-455 in page 24-25 in the subsection of “Comparison of PLMGraph-Inter with AlphaFold-Multimer”).

      To mimic the performance of AlphaFold2 in real practice and produce predicted monomeric structures with more diverse qualities, we only used the MSA searched from Uniref100 protein sequence database as the input to AlphaFold2 and set to not use the template (line 203~210 in page 12 in the subsection of “Evaluation of PLMGraph-Inter on HomoPDB and HeteroPDB test sets”). Since some of the predicted monomer structures are of bad quality, it is reasonable that the performance of PLMGraph-Inter drops when the predicted monomeric structures are used in the prediction. We provided a detailed analysis of the impact of the monomeric structure quality on the prediction performance in the subsection “Impact of the monomeric structure quality on contact prediction” in the main text.

      We provided the analysis of the AFM multimer confidence values (“iptm + ptm”) in the revision (Figure 6, Figure S5 and line 495-501 in page 27 in the subsection of “Comparison of PLMGraph-Inter with AlphaFold-Multimer”).

      Besides, in cases where any experimental structures - bound or unbound - are available and given to PLMGraph-Inter as inputs, they should also be provided to AlphaFold-Multimer (AFM) as templates. Withholding these from AFM only makes the comparison artificially unfair. Hence, a new test should be run using AFM templates, and a new version of Figure 6 should be produced. Additionally, AFM's mean precision, at least for top-50 contact prediction, should be reported so it can be compared with PLMGraph-Inter's.

      We thank the reviewers for the suggestion, and we are sorry for the confusion! In the AFM runs to predict protein complex structures, we used the default setting of AFM which automatically searches monomer templates in the prediction. When we checked our AFM runs, we found that 99% of the targets in our study (including all the targets in the four datasets: HomoPDB, HeteroPDB, DHTest and DB5.5) employed at least 20 templates in their predictions (AFM only used the top 20 templates), and 87.8% of the targets employed the native template. We further clarified this in the revision (line 455462 in page 25 in the subsection of “Comparison of PLMGraph-Inter with AlphaFoldMultimer”). We also included the mean precisions of AFM (top-50 contact prediction) in the revision (Table S5 and line 483-484 in page 26 in the subsection of “Comparison of PLMGraph-Inter with AlphaFold-Multimer”).

      It's a shame that many of the structures used in the comparison with AFM are actually in the AFM v2 training set. If there are any outside the AFM v2 training set and, ideally, not sequence- or structure-homologous to anything in the AFM v2 training set, they should be discussed and reported on separately. In addition, why not test on structures from the "Benchmark 2" or "Recent-PDB-Multimers" datasets used in the AFM paper?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! The biggest challenge to objectively evaluate AFM is that as far as we known, AFM does not release the PDB ids of its training set and the “Recent-PDB-Multimers” dataset. “Benchmark 2” only includes 17 heterodimer proteins, and the number would be further decreased after removing targets redundant to our training set. We think it is difficult to draw conclusions from such a small number of targets.

      It is also worth noting that the AFM v2 weights have now been outdated for a while, and better v3 weights now exist, with a training cutoff of 2021-09-30.

      Author response image 1.

      The head-to-head comparison of qualities of complex predicted by AlphaFold-Multimer (2.2.0) and AlphaFold-Multimer (2.3.2) for each target PPI.

      We thank the reviewer for reminding the new version of AFM. The only difference between AFM V3 and V2 is the cutoff date of the training set. During the revision, we also tested the new version of AFM on the datasets of HomoPDB and HeteroPDB, but we found the performance difference between the two versions of AFM is actually very little (see the figure above, not shown in the main text). One reason might be that some targets in HomoPDB and HeteroPDB are redundant with the training sets of the two version of AFM. Since our test sets would have more overlaps with the training set of AFM V3, we keep using the AFM V2 weights in this study.

      Another weakness in the evaluation framework: because PLMGraph-Inter uses structural inputs, it is not sufficient to make its test set non-redundant in sequence to its training set. It must also be non-redundant in structure. The Benchmark 2 dataset mentioned above is an example of a test set constructed by removing structures with homologous templates in the AF2 training set. Something similar should be done here.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! In the revision, we explored the performance of PLMGraph-Inter when using different thresholds of fold similarity scores of interacting monomers to further remove potential redundancies between the training and test sets (i.e. redundancy in structure ) (line 353-386 in page 19-21 in the subsection “Ablation study”; line 762-797 in page 41-43 in the subsection “Further potential redundancies removal between the training and the test”). We found that for heteromeric PPIs (targets in HeteroPDB), the further removal of potential redundancy in structure has little impact on the model performance (~3%, when TM-score 0.5 is used as the threshold). However, for homomeric PPIs (targets in HomoPDB), the further removal of potential redundancy in structure significantly reduce the model performance (~18%, when TM-score 0.5 is used as the threshold) (see Table 2). One possible reason for this phenomenon is that the binding mode of the homomeric PPI is largely determined by the fold of its monomer, thus the does not generalize well on targets whose folds have never been seen during the training.

      Whether the deep learning model can generalize well on targets with novel folds is a very interesting and important question. We thank the reviewer for pointing out this! However, to the best of our knowledge, this question has rarely been addressed by previous studies including AFM. For example, the Benchmark 2 dataset is prepared by ClusPro TBM (bioRxiv 2021.09.07.459290; Proteins 2020, 88:1082-1090) which uses a sequence-based approach (HHsearch) to identify templates not structure-based. Therefore, we don’t think this dataset is non-redundant in structure.

      Finally, the performance of DRN-1D2D for top-50 precision reported in Table 1 suggests to me that, in an ablation study, language model features alone would yield better performance than geometric features alone. So, I am puzzled why model "a" in the ablation is a "geometry-only" model and not a "LM-only" one.

      Using the protein geometric graph to integrate multiple protein language models is the main idea of PLMGraph-Inter. Comparing with our previous work (DRN-1D2D_Inter), we consider the building of the geometric graph as one major contribution of this work. To emphasize the efficacy of this geometric graph, we chose to use the “geometry-only” model as the base model.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Some sections of the paper use technical terminology which limits accessibility to a broad audience. An obvious example is in the section "Results > Overview of PLMGraph-Inter > The residual network module": the average eLife reader is not a machine learning expert and might not be familiar with a "convolution with kernel size of 1 * 1". In general, the "Overview of PLMGraph-Inter" is a bit heavy with technical details, and I suggest moving many of these to Methods. This overview section can still be there but it should be shorter and written using less technical language.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! We moved some technical details to the Methods section in the revision (line 184-185 in page 11; line 729-735 in page 39).

      List of typos and minor issues (page number according to merged PDF):

      • p. 3. line -3: remove "to"

      Corrected (line 36, page 3)

      • p. 5, line 7: "GINTER" should be "GLINTER"

      Corrected (line 64, page 5)

      • p. 6, line -4: "Given structures" -> "Given the structures"

      Corrected (line 95, page 6)

      • p. 6, line -2: "with which encoded"... ?

      We rephrased this sentence in revision. (line 97, page 6)

      • p. 9, line 1: "principal" -> "principle"

      Corrected (line 142, page 9)

      • p. 13, line 1: "has" -> "but have"

      Corrected (line 231, page 13)

      • p. 14, lines 6-7: "As can be seen from the figure that the predicted" -> "As can be seen from the figure, the predicted"

      We rephrased this paragraph, and the sentence was deleted in the revision (line 257-259 in page 15).

      • p. 18, line 1: the "five models" are presumably models a-e? If so, say "of models a-e"

      Corrected (line 310, page 17)

      • p. 22, line 2: from the figure, I would have guessed "greater than or equal to 0.7", not 0.8

      Based the Figure 3C, we think 0.8 is a more appropriate cutoff, since the precision drops significantly when the DTM-score is within 0.7~0.8.

      • p. 23, lines 2-3: "worth to making" -> "worth making"

      Corrected (line 443, page 24)

      • p. 24, line -5: "predict" -> "predicted"

      Corrected (line 484, page 26)

      • p 28, line -5: Please clarify what you mean by "We doubt": are you saying that you don't think these rearrangements exist in nature? If not, then reword.

      Corrected (line 566, page 30)

      • Figure 2, panel c, "DCPred" in the legend should be "CDPred"

      Corrected

      • Figures 3 and 5: Please improve the y-axis title in panel C. "Percent" of what?

      We changed the “Percent” to “% of targets” in the revision.

      We thank the reviewer for carefully reading our manuscript!

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This work introduces PLMGraph-Inter, a new deep-learning approach for predicting inter-protein contacts, which is crucial for understanding proteinprotein interactions. Despite advancements in this field, especially driven by AlphaFold, prediction accuracy and efficiency in terms of computational cost) still remains an area for improvement. PLMGraph-Inter utilizes invariant geometric graphs to integrate the features from multiple protein language models into the structural information of each subunit. When compared against other inter-protein contact prediction methods, PLMGraph-Inter shows better performance which indicates that utilizing both sequence embeddings and structural embeddings is important to achieve high-accuracy predictions with relatively smaller computational costs for the model training.

      The conclusions of this paper are mostly well supported by data, but test examples should be revisited with a more strict sequence identity cutoff to avoid any potential information leakage from the training data. The main figures should be improved to make them easier to understand.

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the significance of our work! We have carefully revised the manuscript to address the reviewer’s concerns.

      (1) The sequence identity cutoff to remove redundancies between training and test set was set to 40%, which is a bit high to remove test examples having homology to training examples. For example, CDPred uses a sequence identity cutoff of 30% to strictly remove redundancies between training and test set examples. To make their results more solid, the authors should have curated test examples with lower sequence identity cutoffs, or have provided the performance changes against sequence identities to the closest training examples.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion! The “40 sequence identity” is a widely used threshold to remove redundancy when evaluating deep-learning based protein-protein interaction and protein complex structure prediction methods, thus we also chose this threshold in our study (bioRxiv 2021.10.04.463034, Cell Syst. 2021 Oct 20;12(10):969-982.e6). In the revision, we explored whether PLMGraph-inter can keep its performance when more stringent thresholds (30%,20%,10%) is applied (line 353386 in page 20-21 in the subsection of “Ablation study” and line 762-780 in page 40 in the subsection of “Further potential redundancies removal between the training and the test”). The result shows that even when using “10% sequence identity” as the threshold, mean precisions of the predicted contacts only decreases by ~3% (Table 2).

      (2) Figures with head-to-head comparison scatter plots are hard to understand as scatter plots because too many different methods are abstracted into a single plot with multiple colors. It would be better to provide individual head-tohead scatter plots as supplementary figures, not in the main figure.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! We will include the individual head-to-head scatter plots as supplementary figures in the revision (Figure S1 and Figure S2 in the supplementary).

      (3) The authors claim that PLMGraph-Inter is complementary to AlphaFoldmultimer as it shows better precision for the cases where AlphaFold-multimer fails. To strengthen the point, the qualities of predicted complex structures via protein-protein docking with predicted contacts as restraints should have been compared to those of AlphaFold-multimer structures.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! We included this comparison in the revision (Figure S7).

      (4) It would be interesting to further analyze whether there is a difference in prediction performance depending on the depth of multiple sequence alignment or the type of complex (antigen-antibody, enzyme-substrates, single species PPI, multiple species PPI, etc).

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! We analyzed the relationship between the prediction performance and the depth of MSA in the revision (Figure S4 and Line 253264 in page 15 in the subsection of “Evaluation of PLMGraph-Inter on HomoPDB and HeteroPDB test sets” and line 798-806 in page 42 in the subsection of “Calculating the normalized number of the effective sequences of paired MSA”).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have the following suggestions in addition to the public review.

      (1) Overall, the manuscript is well-written; however, I recommend a careful review for minor grammar corrections to polish the final text.

      We carefully checked the manuscript and corrected all the grammar issues and typos we found in the revision.

      (2) It would be better to indicate that single sequence embeddings, MSA embeddings, and structure embeddings are ESM-1b, ESM-MSA & PSSM, and ESM-IF when they are first mentioned in the manuscript e.g. single sequence embeddings from ESM-1b, MSA embeddings from ESM-MSA and PSSM, and structural embeddings from ESM-IF.

      We revised the manuscript according to the reviewer’s suggestion (line 86-88 in page 6; line 99-101 in page 7).

      (3) I don't think "outer concatenation" is commonly used. Please specify whether it's outer sum, outer product, or horizontal & vertical tiling followed by concatenation.

      It is horizontal & vertical tiling followed by concatenation. We clarified this in the revision (line 129-130 in page 8).

      (4) 10th sentence on the page where the Results section starts, please briefly mention what are the other 2D pairwise features.

      We clarified this in the revision (line 131-132 in page 8).

      (5) In the result section, it states edges are defined based on Ca distances, but in the method section, it says edges are determined based on heavy atom distances. Please correct one of them.

      It should be Ca distances. We are sorry for the carelessness, and we corrected this in the revision (line 646 in page 35).

      (6) For the sentence, "Where ESM-1b and ESM-MSA-1b are pretrained PLMs learned from large datasets of sequences and MSAs respectively without label supervision,", I'd suggest replacing "without label supervision" with "with masked language modeling tasks" for clarity.

      We revised the manuscript according to the reviewer’s suggestion (line 150-151 in page 9).

      (7) It would be better to briefly explain what is the dimensional hybrid residual block when it first mentioned.

      We explained the dimensional hybrid residue block when it first mentioned in the revision (line 107 in page 7).

      (8) Please include error bars for the bar plots and standard deviations for the tables.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion! Our understanding is the error bars and standard deviations are very informative for data which follow gaussian-like distributions, but our data (precisions of the predicted contacts) are obviously not this type. Most previous studies in protein contact prediction and inter-protein contact prediction also did not include these in their plots or tables. In our case, including these elements requires a dramatic change of the styles of our figures and tables, but we would like to not change our figures and tables too much in the revision.

      (9) Please indicate whether the chain break is considered to generate attention map features from ESM-MSA-1b. If it's considered, please specify how.

      The paired sequences were directly concatenated without using any letter to connect them, which means we did not consider chain break in generating the attention maps from ESM-MSA-1b.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, Manley and Vaziri investigate whole-brain neural activity underlying behavioural variability in zebrafish larvae. They combine whole brain (single cell level) calcium imaging during the presentation of visual stimuli, triggering either approach or avoidance, and carry out whole brain population analyses to identify whole brain population patterns responsible for behavioural variability. They show that similar visual inputs can trigger large variability in behavioural responses. Though visual neurons are also variable across trials, they demonstrate that this neural variability does not degrade population stimulus decodability. Instead, they find that the neural variability across trials is in orthogonal population dimensions to stimulus encoding and is correlated with motor output (e.g. tail vigor). They then show that behavioural variability across trials is largely captured by a brain-wide population state prior to the trial beginning, which biases choice - especially on ambiguous stimulus trials. This study suggests that parts of stimulus-driven behaviour can be captured by brain-wide population states that bias choice, independently of stimulus encoding.

      Strengths:

      -The strength of the paper principally resides in the whole brain cellular level imaging in a well-known but variable behaviour.

      - The analyses are reasonable and largely answer the questions the authors ask.

      - Overall the conclusions are well warranted.

      Weaknesses:

      A more in-depth exploration of some of the findings could be provided, such as:

      - Given that thousands of neurons are recorded across the brain a more detailed parcelation of where the neurons contribute to different population coding dimensions would be useful to better understand the circuits involved in different computations.

      We thank the reviewer for noting the strengths of our study and agree that these findings have raised a number of additional avenues which we intend to explore in depth in future studies. In response to the reviewer’s comment above, we have added a number of additional figure panels (new Figures S1E, S3F-G, 4I(i), 4K(i), and S5F-G) and updated panels (Figures 4I(ii) and 4K(ii) in the revised manuscript) to show a more detailed parcellation of the visually-evoked neurons, noise modes, turn direction bias population, and responsiveness bias population. To do so. we have aligned our recordings to the Z-Brain atlas (Randlett et al., 2015) as shown in new Figure S1E. In addition, we provided a more detailed parcellation of the neuronal ensembles by providing projections of the full 3D volume along the xy and yz axes, in addition to the unregistered xy projection shown in Figures 4H and 4J in the revised manuscript. We also found that the distribution of neurons across our huc:h2b-gcamp6s recordings is very similar to the distribution of labeling in the huc:h2b-rfp reference image from the Z-Brain atlas (Figure S1E), which further supports our whole-brain imaging results.

      Overall, we find that this more detailed quantification and visualization is consistent with our interpretations. In particular, we show that the optimal visual decoding population (w<sub>opt</sub>) and the largest noise mode (e1) are localized to the midbrain (Figures S3F-G). This is expected, as in Figure 3 we first extracted a low-dimensional subspace of whole-brain neural activity that optimally preserved visual information. Additionally, we provide new evidence that the populations correlated with the turn bias and responsiveness bias are distributed throughout the brain, including a relatively dense localization to the cerebellum, telencephalon, and dorsal diencephalon (habenula, new Figures 4H-K and S5F-G).

      - Given that the behaviour on average can be predicted by stimulus type, how does the stimulus override the brain-wide choice bias on some trials? In other words, a better link between the findings in Figures 2 and 3 would be useful for better understanding how the behaviour ultimately arises.

      We agree with the reviewer that one of the most fundamental questions that this study has raised is how the identified neuronal populations predictive of decision variables (which we describe as an internal “bias”) interact with the well-studied, visually-evoked circuitry. A major limitation of our study is that the slow dynamics of the NL-GCaMP6s prevent clearly distinguishing any potential difference in the onset time of various neurons during the short trials, which might provide clues into which neurons drive versus later reflect the motor output. However, given that these ensembles were also found to be correlated with spontaneous turns, our hypothesis is that these populations reflect brain-wide drives that enable efficient exploration of the local environment (Dunn et al. 2016, doi.org/10.7554/eLife.12741). Further, we suspect that a sufficiently strong stimulus drive (e.g., large, looming stimuli) overrides these ongoing biases, which would explain the higher average pre-stimulus predictability in trials with small to intermediate-sized stimuli. An important follow-up line of experimentation could involve comparing the neuronal dynamics of specific components of the visual circuitry at distinct internal bias states, ideally utilizing emerging voltage indicators to maximize spatiotemporal specificity. For example, what is the difference between trials with a large looming stimulus in the left visual fields when the turn direction bias indicates a leftward versus rightward drive?

      - What other motor outputs do the noise dimensions correlate with?

      To better demonstrate the relationship between neural noise modes and motor activity that we described, we have provided a more detailed correlation analysis in new Figure S4A. We extracted additional features related to the larva’s tail kinematics, including tail vigor, curvature, principal components of curvature, angular velocity, and angular acceleration (S4A(i)). Some of these behavioral features were correlated with one another; for example, in the example traces, PC1 appears to capture nearly the same behavioral feature as tail vigor. The largest noise modes showed stronger correlations with motor output than the smaller noise modes, which is reminiscent recent work in the mouse showing that some of the neural dimensions with highest variance were correlated with various behavioral features (Musall et al. 2019; Stringer et al. 2019; Manley et al. 2024). We anticipate additional motor outputs would exhibit correlations with neural noise modes, such as pectoral fin movements (not possible to capture in our preparation due to immobilization) and eye movements.

      The dataset that the authors have collected is immensely valuable to the field, and the initial insights they have drawn are interesting and provide a good starting ground for a more expanded understanding of why a particular action is determined outside of the parameters experimenters set for their subjects.

      We thank the reviewer for noting the value of our dataset and look forward to future efforts motivated by the observations in our study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Overview

      In this work, Manley and Vaziri investigate the neural basis for variability in the way an animal responds to visual stimuli evoking prey-capture or predator-avoidance decisions. This is an interesting problem and the authors have generated a potentially rich and relevant data set. To do so, the authors deployed Fourier light field microscopy (Flfm) of larval zebrafish, improving upon prior designs and image processing schemes to enable volumetric imaging of calcium signals in the brain at up to 10 Hz. They then examined associations between neural activity and tail movement to identify populations primarily related to the visual stimulus, responsiveness, or turn direction - moreover, they found that the activity of the latter two populations appears to predict upcoming responsiveness or turn direction even before the stimulus is presented. While these findings may be valuable for future more mechanistic studies, issues with resolution, rigor of analysis, clarity of presentation, and depth of connection to the prior literature significantly dampen enthusiasm.

      Imaging

      - Resolution: It is difficult to tell from the displayed images how good the imaging resolution is in the brain. Given scattering and lensing, it is important for data interpretation to have an understanding of how much PSF degrades with depth.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments and agree that the dependence of the PSF and resolution as a function of depth is an important consideration in light field imaging. To quantify this, we measured the lateral resolution of the fLFM as a function of distance from the native image plane (NIP) using a USAF target. The USAF target was positioned at various depths using an automated z-stage, and the slice of the reconstructed volume corresponding to that depth was analyzed. An element was considered resolved if the modulation transfer function (MTF) was greater than 30%.

      In new Figure S1A, we plot the resolution measurements of the fLFM as compared to the conventional LFM (Prevedel et al., 2014), which shows the increase in resolution across the axial extent of imaging. In particular, the fLFM does not exhibit the dramatic drop in lateral resolution near the NIP which is seen in conventional LFM. In addition, the expanded range of high-resolution imaging motivates our increase from an axial range of 200 microns in previous studies to 280 microns in this study.

      - Depth: In the methods it is indicated that the imaging depth was 280 microns, but from the images of Figure 1 it appears data was collected only up to 150 microns. This suggests regions like the hypothalamus, which may be important for controlling variation in internal states relevant to the behaviors being studied, were not included.

      The full axial range of imaging was 280 microns, i.e. spanning from 140 microns below to 140 microns above the native imaging plane. After aligning our recordings to the Z-Brain dataset, we have compared the 3D distribution of neurons in our data (new Figure S1E(i)) to the labeling of the reference brain (Figure S1E(ii)). This provides evidence that our imaging preparation largely captures the labeling seen in a dense, high-resolution reference image within the indicated 280 microns range.

      - Flfm data processing: It is important for data interpretation that the authors are clearer about how the raw images were processed. The de-noising process specifically needs to be explained in greater detail. What are the characteristics of the noise being removed? How is time-varying signal being distinguished from noise? Please provide a supplemental with images and algorithm specifics for each key step.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. To address the reviewer’s point regarding the data processing pipeline utilized in our study, in our revised manuscript we have added a number of additional figure panels in Figure S1B-E to quantify and describe the various steps of the pipeline in greater depth.

      First, the raw fLFM images are denoised. The denoising approach utilized in the fLFM data processing pipeline is not novel, but rather a custom-trained variant of Lecoq et al.’s (2021) DeepInterpolation method. In our original manuscript, we also described the specific architecture and parameters utilized to train our specific variation of DeepInterpolation model. To make this procedure clearer, we have added the following details to the methods:

      “DeepInterpolation is a self-supervised approach to denoising, which denoises the data by learning to predict a given frame from a set of frames before and after it. Time-varying signal can be distinguished from shot noise because shot noise is independent across frames, but signal is not. Therefore, only the signal is able to be predicted from adjacent frames. This has been shown to provide a highly effective and efficient denoising method (Lecoq et al., 2021).”

      Therefore, time-varying signal is distinguished from noise based on the correlations of pixel intensity across consecutive imaging frames. To better visualize this process, in new Figure S1B we show example images and fluorescence traces before and after denoising.

      - Merging: It is noted that nearby pixels with a correlation greater than 0.7 were merged. Why was this done? Is this largely due to cross-contamination due to a drop in resolution? How common was this occurrence? What was the distribution of pixel volumes after aggregation? Should we interpret this to mean that a 'neuron' in this data set is really a small cluster of 10-20 neurons? This of course has great bearing on how we think about variability in the response shown later.

      First, to be clear, nearby pixels were not merged; instead neuronal ROIs identified by CNMF-E were merged, as we had described: “the CNMF-E algorithm was applied to each plane in parallel, after which the putative neuronal ROIs from each plane were collated and duplicate neurons across planes were merged.” If this merging was not performed, the number of neurons would be overestimated due to the relatively dense 3D reconstruction with voxels of 4 m axially. Therefore, this merging is a requisite component of the pipeline to avoid double counting of neurons, regardless of the resolution of the data.

      However, we agree with the reviewer that the practical consequences of this merging were not previously described in sufficient detail. Therefore, in our revision we have added additional quantification of the two critical components of the merging procedure: the number of putative neuronal ROIs merged and the volume of the final 3D neuronal ROIs, which demonstrate that a neuron in our data should not be interpreted as a cluster of 10-20 neurons.

      In new Figure S1C(i), we summarize the rate of occurrence of merging by assessing the number of putative 2D ROIs which were merged to form each final 3D neuronal ROI. Across n=10 recordings, approximately 75% of the final 3D neuronal ROIs involved no merging at all, and few instances involved merging more than 5 putative ROIs. Next, in Figure S1C(ii), we quantify the volume of the final 3D ROIs. To do so, we counted the number of voxels contributing to each final 3D neuronal ROI and multiplied that by the volume of a single voxel (2.4 x 2.4 x 4 µm<sup>3</sup>). The majority of neurons had a volume of less than 1000 µm<up>3</sup>, which corresponds to a spherical volume with a radius of roughly 6.2 m. In summary, both the merging statistics and volume distribution demonstrate that few neuronal ROIs could be consistent with “a small cluster of 10-20 neurons”.

      - Bleaching: Please give the time constants used in the fit for assessing bleaching.

      As described in the Methods, the photobleaching correction was performed by fitting a bi-exponential function to the mean fluorescence across all neurons. We have provided the time constants determined by these fits for n=10 recordings in new Figure S1D(i). In addition, we provided an example of raw mean activity, the corresponding bi-exponential fit, and the mean activity after correction in Figure S1D(ii). These data demonstrate that the dominant photobleaching effect is a steep decrease in mean signal at the beginning of the recording (represented by the estimated time constant τ<sub>1</sub>), followed by a slow decay (τ<sub>2</sub>).

      Analysis

      - Slow calcium dynamics: It does not appear that the authors properly account for the slow dynamics of calcium-sensing in their analysis. Nuclear-localized GCaMP6s will likely have a kernel with a multiple-second decay time constant for many of the cells being studied. The value used needs to be given and the authors should account for variability in this kernel time across cell types. Moreover, by not deconvolving their signals, the authors allow for contamination of their signal at any given time with a signal from multiple seconds prior. For example, in Figure 4A (left turns), it appears that much of the activity in the first half of the time-warped stimulus window began before stimulus presentation - without properly accounting for the kernel, we don't know if the stimulus-associated activity reported is really stimulus-associated firing or a mix of stimulus and pre-stimulus firing. This also suggests that in some cases the signals from the prior trial may contaminate the current trial.

      We would like to respond to each of the points raised here by the reviewer individually.

      (1) “It does not appear that the authors properly account for the slow dynamics of calcium-sensing in their analysis. Nuclear-localized GCaMP6s will likely have a kernel with a multiple-second decay time constant for many of the cells being studied. The value used needs to be given…”

      We disagree with the reviewer’s claim that the slow dynamics of the calcium indicator GCaMP were not accounted for. While we did not deconvolve the neuronal traces with the GCaMP response kernel, in every step in which we correlated neural activity with sensory or motor variables, we convolved the stimulus or motor timeseries with the GCaMP kernel, as described in the Methods. Therefore, the expected delay and smoothing effects were accounted for when analyzing the correlation structure between neural and behavioral or stimulus variables, as well as during our various classification approaches. To better describe this, we have added the following description of the kernel to our Methods:

      “The NL-GCaMP6s kernel was estimated empirically by aligning and averaging a number of calcium events. This kernel corresponds to a half-rise time of 400 ms and half-decay time of 4910 ms.”

      This approach accounts for the GCaMP kernel when relating the neuronal dynamics to stimuli and behavior, while avoiding any artifacts that could be introduced from improper deconvolution or other corrections directly to the calcium dynamics. Deconvolution of calcium imaging data, and in particular nuclear-localized (NL) GCaMP6s, is not always a robust procedure. In particular, GCaMP6s has a much more nonlinear response profile than newer GCaMP variants such as jGCaMP8 (Zhang et al. 2023, doi:10.1038/s41586-023-05828-9), as the reviewer notes later in their comments. The nuclear-localized nature of the indicator used in our study also provides an additional nonlinear effect. Accounting for a nonlinear relationship between calcium concentration and fluorescence readout is significantly more difficult because such nonlinearities remove the guarantee that the optimization approaches generally used in deconvolution will converge to global extrema. This means that deconvolution assuming nonlinearities is far less robust than deconvolution using the linear approximation (Vogelstein et al. 2010, doi: 10.1152/jn.01073.2009). Therefore, we argue that we are not currently aware of any appropriate methods for deconvolving our NL-GCaMP6s data, and take a more conservative approach in our study.

      We also argue that the natural smoothness of calcium imaging data is important for the analyses utilized in our study (Shen et al., 2022, doi:10.1016/j.jneumeth.2021.109431). Even if our data were deconvolved in order to estimate spike trains or more point-like activity patterns, such data are generally smoothed (e.g., by estimating firing rates) before dimensionality reduction, which is a core component of our neuronal population analyses. Further, Wei et al. (2020, doi:10.1371/journal.pcbi.1008198) showed in detail that deconvolved calcium data resulted in less accurate population decoding, whereas binned electrophysiological data and raw calcium data were equally accurate. When using other techniques, such as clustering of neuronal activity patterns (a method we do not employ in this study), spike and deconvolved calcium data were instead shown to be more accurate than raw calcium data. Therefore, we do not believe deconvolution of the neuronal traces is appropriate in this case without a better understanding of the NL-GCaMP6s response, and do not rely on the properties of deconvolution for our analyses. Still, we agree with the reviewer that one must be mindful of the GCaMP kernel when analyzing and interpreting these data, and therefore have noted the delayed and slow kinematics of the NL-GCaMP within our manuscript, for example: “To visualize the neuronal activity during a given trial while accounting for the delay and kinematics of the nuclear-localized GCaMP (NL-GCaMP) sensor, a duration of approximately 15 seconds is extracted beginning at the onset of the 3-second visual stimulus period.”

      (2) “… and the authors should account for variability in this kernel time across cell types.”

      In addition to the points raised above, we are not aware of any deconvolution procedures which have successfully shown the ability to account for variability in the response kernel across cell types in whole-brain imaging data when cell type is unknown a priori. Pachitariu et al. (2018, doi:10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3339-17.2018) showed that the best deconvolution procedures for calcium imaging data rely on a simple algorithm with a fixed kernel. Further, more complicated approaches either utilize either explicit priors about the calcium kernel or learn implicit priors using supervised learning, neither of which we would be able to confirm are appropriate for our dataset without ground truth electrophysiological spike data.

      However, we agree with the reviewer that we must interpret the data while being mindful that there could be variability in this kernel across neurons, which is not accounted for in our fixed calcium kernel. We have added the following sentence to our revised manuscript to highlight this limitation:

      “The used of a fixed calcium kernel does not account for any variability in the GCaMP response across cells, which could be due to differences such as cell type or expression level. Therefore, this analysis approach may not capture the full set of neurons which exhibit stimulus correlations but exhibit a different GCaMP response.”

      (3) “without properly accounting for the kernel, we don't know if the stimulus-associated activity reported is really stimulus-associated firing or a mix of stimulus and pre-stimulus firing”

      While we agree with the reviewer that the slow dynamics of the indicator will cause a delay and smoothing of the signal over time, we would like to point out that this effect is highly directional. In particular, we can be confident that pre-stimulus activity is not contaminated by the stimulus given the data we describe in the next point regarding the timing of visual stimuli relative to the GCaMP kernel. The reviewer is correct that post-stimulus firing can be mixed with pre-stimulus firing due to the GCaMP kernel. However, our key claims in Figure 4 center around turn direction and responsiveness biases, which are present even before the onset of the stimulus. Still, we have highlighted this delay and smoothing to readers in the updated version of our manuscript.

      (4) “This also suggests that in some cases the signals from the prior trial may contaminate the current trial”

      We have carefully chosen the inter-stimulus interval for maximum efficiency of stimulation, while ensuring that contamination from the previous stimulus is negligible. The inter-stimulus interval was chosen by empirically analyzing preliminary data of visual stimulation with our preparation. New Figure S3C shows the delay and slow kinematics due to our indicator; indeed, visually-evoked activity peaks after the end of the short stimulus period. Importantly, however, the visually-evoked activity is at or near baseline at the start of the next trial.

      Finally, we would like to note that our stimulation protocol is randomized, as described in the Methods. Therefore, the previous stimulus has no correlation with the current stimulus, which would prevent any contamination from providing predictive power that could be identified by our visual decoding methods.

      - Partial Least Squares (PLS) regression: The steps taken to identify stimulus coding and noise dimensions are not sufficiently clear. Please provide a mathematical description.

      We have updated the Results and Methods sections of our revised manuscript to describe in more mathematical detail the approach taken to identify the relevant dimensions of neuronal activity:

      “The comparison of the neural dimensions encoding visual stimuli versus trial-to-trial noise was modeled after Rumyantsev et al. (2020). Partial least squares (PLS) regression was used to find a low-dimensional space that optimally predicted the visual stimuli, which we refer to as the visually-evoked neuronal activity patterns. To perform regression, a visual stimulus kernel was constructed by summing the timeseries of each individual stimulus type, weighted by the stimulus size and negated for trials on the right visual field, thus providing a single response variable encoding both the location, size, and timing of all the stimulus presentations. This stimulus kernel was the convolved with the temporal response kernel of our calcium indicator (NL-GCaMP6s).

      PLS regression identifies the normalized dimensions and that maximize the covariance between paired observations and , respectively. In our case, the visual stimulus is represented by a single variable , simplifying the problem to identifying the subspace of neural activity that optimally preserves information about the visual stimulus (sometimes referred to as PLS1 regression). That is, the N x T neural time series matrix X is reduced to a d x T matrix spanned by a set of orthonormal vectors. PLS1 regression is performed as follows:

      PLS1 algorithm

      Let X<sub>i</sub> = X and . For i = 1…d,

      (1) 

      (2) 

      (3) 

      (4) 

      (5)  (note this is scalar)

      (6) 

      The projections of the neural data {p<sub>i</sub>} thus span a subspace that maximally preserves information about the visual stimulus . Stacking these projections into the N x d matrix P that represents the transform from the whole-brain neural state space to the visually-evoked subspace, the optimal decoding direction is given by the linear least squares solution . The dimensionality d of PLS regression was optimized using 6-fold cross-validation with 3 repeats and choosing the dimensionality between d = 1 and 20 with the lowest cross-validated mean squared error for each larva. Then, was computed using all time points.

      For each stimulus type, the noise covariance matrix  was computed in the low-dimensional PLS space, given that direct estimation of the noise covariances across many thousands of neurons would likely be unreliable. A noise covariance matrix was calculated separately for each stimulus, and then averaged across all stimuli. As before, the mean activity µ<sub>i</sub> for each neuron  was computed over each stimulus presentation period. The noise covariance then describes the correlated fluctuations δ<sub>i</sub> around this mean response for each pair of neurons i and j, where

      The noise modes for α = 1 …d were subsequently identified by eigendecomposition of the mean noise covariance matrix across all stimuli, . The angle between the optimal stimulus decoding direction and the noise modes is thus given by .”

      - No response: It is not clear from the methods description if cases where the animal has no tail response are being lumped with cases where the animal decides to swim forward and thus has a large absolute but small mean tail curvature. These should be treated separately. 

      We thank the reviewer for raising the potential for this confusion and agree that forward-motion trials should not treated the same as motionless trials. While these types of trial were indeed treated separately in our original manuscript, we have updated the Methods section of our revised manuscript to make this clear:

      “Left and right turn trials were extracted as described previously. Response trials included both left and right turn trials (i.e., the absolute value of mean tail curvature > σ<sub>active</sub>), whereas nonresponse trials were motionless (absolute mean tail curvature < σ<sub>active</sub>). In particular, forward-motion trials were excluded from these analyses.”

      While our study has focused specifically on left and right turns, we hypothesize that the responsiveness bias ensemble may also be involved in forward movements and look forward to future work exploring the relationship between whole-brain dynamics and the full range of motor outputs.

      - Behavioral variability: Related to Figure 2, within- and across-subject variability are confounded. Please disambiguate. It may also be informative on a per-fish basis to examine associations between reaction time and body movement.

      The reviewer is correct that our previously reported summary statistics in Figure 2D-F were aggregated across trials from multiple larvae. Following the reviewer’s suggestion to make the magnitudes of across-larvae and within-larva variability clear, in our revised manuscript we have added two additional figure panels to Figure S2.

      New Figure S2A highlights the across-larvae variability in mean head-directed behavioral responses to stimuli of various sizes. Overall, the relationship between stimulus size and the mean tail curvature across trials is largely consistent across larvae; however, the crossing-over point between leftward (positive curvature) and rightward (negative curvature) turns for a given side of the visual field exhibits some variability across larvae.

      New Figure S2B shows examples of within-larva variability by plotting the mean tail curvature during single trials for two example larvae. Consistent with Figure 2G which also demonstrates within-larva variability, responses to a given stimulus are variable across trials in both examples. However, this degree of within-larva variability can appear different across larvae. For example, the larva shown on the left of Figure S2B exhibits greater overlap between responses to stimuli presented on opposite visual fields, whereas the larva shown on the right exhibits greater distinction between responses.

      - Data presentation clarity: All figure panels need scale bars - for example, in Figure 3A there is no indication of timescale (or time of stimulus presentation). Figure 3I should also show the time series of the w_opt projection.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s attention to detail in this regard. We have added scalebars to Figures 3A, 3H-I, S4B(ii), 4H, 4J in the revised manuscript, and all new figure panels where relevant. In addition, the caption of Figure 3A has been updated to include a description of the time period plotted relative to the onset of the visual stimulus.

      Additionally, we appreciate the reviewer’s idea to show w<sub>opt</sub> in Figure 3J of the revised manuscript (previously Figure 3I). This clearly shows that the visual decoding project is inactive during the short baseline period before visual stimulation begins, whereas the noise mode is correlated with motor output throughout the recording.

      - Pixel locations: Given the poor quality of the brain images, it is difficult to tell the location of highlighted pixels relative to brain anatomy. In addition, given that the midbrain consists of much more than the tectum, it is not appropriate to put all highlighted pixels from the midbrain under the category of tectum. To aid in data interpretation and better connect this work with the literature, it is recommended that the authors register their data sets to standard brain atlases and determine if there is any clustering of relevant pixels in regions previously associated with prey-capture or predator-avoidance behavior.

      We agree with the reviewer that registration of our datasets to a standard brain atlas is a highly useful addition. While the dense, pan-neuronal labeling makes the isolation of highly specific circuit components difficult, we have shown in more detail the specific brain regions contributing to these populations by aligning our recordings to the Z-Brain atlas (Randlett et al., 2015) as shown in new Figures S1E, S3F-G, 4I, 4K, and S5F-G. In addition, we provided a more detailed parcellation of the neuronal ensembles by providing projections of the full 3D volume along the xy and yz axes, in addition to the unregistered xy projection shown in new Figures 4H and 4J. We also found that the distribution of neurons in our huc:H2B-GCaMP6s recordings is very similar to the distribution of labeling in the huc:H2B-RFP reference image from the Z-Brain atlas (new Figure S1E), which further supports our whole-brain imaging results.

      Overall, we find that this more detailed quantification and visualization is consistent with the interpretations in the previous version of our manuscript. In particular, we show that optimal visual decoding population (w<sub>opt</sub>) and largest noise mode (e1) are localized to the midbrain (new Figures S3F-G), which is expected since in Figure 3 we first extracted a low-dimensional subspace of whole-brain neural activity that optimally preserved visual information. Additionally, we provide additional evidence that the populations correlated with the turn bias and responsiveness bias are distributed throughout the brain, including a relatively dense localization to the cerebellum, telencephalon, and dorsal diencephalon (habenula, new Figures 4H-K and S5F-G).

      Finally, the reviewer is correct that our original label of “tectum” was a misnomer; the region analyzed corresponded to the midbrain, including the tegmentum, torus longitudinalis, and torus semicicularis in addition to the tectum. We have updated the brain regions shown and labels throughout the manuscript.

      Interpretation

      - W_opt and e_1 orthogonality: The statement that these two vectors, determined from analysis of the fluorescence data, are orthogonal, actually brings into question the idea that true signal and leading noise vectors in firing-rate state-space are orthogonal. First, the current analysis is confounding signals across different time periods - one could assume linearity all the way through the transformations, but this would only work if earlier sources of activation were being accounted for. Second, the transformation between firing rate and fluorescence is most likely not linear for GCaMP6s in most of the cells recorded. Thus, one would expect a change in the relationship between these vectors as one maps from fluorescence to firing rate.

      Unfortunately, we are not entirely sure we have understood the reviewer’s argument. We are assuming that the reviewer’s first sentence is suggesting that the observation of orthogonality in the neural state space measured in calcium imaging precludes the possibility (“actually brings into question”, as the reviewer states) that the same neural ensembles could be orthogonal in firing rate state space measured by electrophysiological data. If this is the reviewer’s conjecture, we respectfully disagree with it. Consider a toy example of a neural network containing N ensembles of neurons, where the neurons within an ensemble all fire simultaneously, and two populations never fire at the same time. As long as the “switching” of firing between ensembles is not fast relative to the resolution of the GCaMP kernel, the largest principal components would represent orthogonal dimensions differentiating the various ensembles, both when observing firing rates or observing timeseries convolved by the GCaMP kernel. This is a simple example where the observed orthogonality would appear similar in both calcium imaging and electrophysical data, demonstrating that we should not allow conclusions from fluorescence data to “bring into question” that the same result could be observed in firing rate data.

      We also disagree with the reviewer’s argument that we are “confounding signals across time periods”. Indeed, we must interpret the data in light of the GCaMP response kernel. However, all of the analyses presented here are performed on instantaneous measurements of population activity patterns. These activity patterns do represent a smoothed, likely nonlinear integration of recent neuronal activity, but unless the variability in the GCaMP response kernel (discussed above) is widely different across these populations (which has not been observed in the literature), we do not expect that the GCaMP transformations would artificially induce orthogonality in our analysis approach. Such smoothing operations tend to instead increase correlations across neurons and population decoding approaches generally benefit from this smoothness, as we have argued above. However, a much more problematic situation would be if we were comparing the activity of two neuronal populations at different points in time (which we do not include in this study), in which case the nonlinearities could overaccentuate orthogonality between non-time-matched activity patterns.

      Finally, we agree with the reviewer that the transformation between firing rate and fluorescence is very likely nonlinear and that these vectors of population activity do not perfectly represent what would be observed if one had access to whole-brain, cellular-resolution electrophysiology spike data. However, similar observations regarding the brain-wide, distributed encoding of behavior have been confirmed across recording modalities in the mouse (Stringer et al., 2019; Steinmetz et al., 2019), where large-scale electrophysiology utilizing highly invasive probes (e.g., Neuropixels) is more feasible than in the larval zebrafish. With the advent of whole-brain voltage imaging in the larval zebrafish, we expect any differences between calcium and voltage dynamics will be better understood, yet such techniques will likely continue to suffer to some extent from the nonlinearities described here.

      - Sources of variability: The authors do not take into account a fairly obvious source of variability in trial-to-trial response - eye position. We know that prey capture responsiveness is dependent on eye position during stimulus (see Figure 4 of PMID: 22203793). We also expect that neurons fairly early in the visual pathway with relatively narrow receptive fields will show variable responses to visual stimuli as the degree of overlap with the receptive field varies with eye movement. There can also be small eye-tracking movements ahead of the decision to engage in prey capture (Figure 1D, PMID: 31591961) that can serve as a drive to initiate movements in a particular direction. Given these possibilities indicating that the behavioral measure of interest is gaze, and the fact that eye movements were apparently monitored, it is surprising that the authors did not include eye movements in the analysis and interpretation of their data.

      We agree with the reviewer that eye movements, such as saccades and convergence, are important motor outputs that are well-known to play a role in the sequence of motor actions during prey capture and other behaviors. Therefore, we have added the following new eye tracking results to our revised manuscript:

      “In order to confirm that the observed neural variability in the visually-evoked populations was not predominantly due to eye movements, such as saccades or convergence, we tracked the angle of each eye. We utilized DeepLabCut, a deep learning tool for animal pose estimation (Mathis et al., 2018), to track keypoints on the eye which are visible in the raw fLFM images, including the retina and pigmentation (Figure S3D(i)). This approach enabled identification of various eye movements, such as convergence and the optokinetic reflex (Figure S3D(ii-iii)). Next, we extracted a number of various eye states, including those based on position (more leftward vs. rightward angles) and speed (high angular velocity vs. low or no motion). Figure S3E(i) provides example stimulus response profiles across trials of the same visual stimulus in each of these eye states, similar to a single column of traces in Figure 3A broken out into more detail. These data demonstrate that the magnitude and temporal dynamics of the stimulus-evoked responses show apparently similar levels of variability across eye states. If neural variability was driven by eye movement during the stimulus presentation, for example, one would expect to see much more variability during the high angular velocity trials than low, which is not apparent. Next, we asked whether the dominant neural noise modes vary across eye states, which would suggest that the geometry of neuronal variability is influenced by eye movements or states. To do so, the dominant noise modes were estimated in each of the individual eye conditions, as well as bootstrapped trials from across all eye conditions. The similarity of these noise modes estimated from different eye conditions (Figure S3E(ii), right)) was not significantly different from the similarity of noise modes estimated from bootstrapped random samples across all eye conditions (Figure S3E(ii), left)). Therefore, while movements of the eye likely contribute to aspects of the observed neural variability, they do not dominate the observed neural variability here, particularly given our observation that the largest noise mode represents a considerable fraction of the observed neural variance (Figure 3E).”

      While these results provide an important control in our study, we anticipate further study of the relationship between eye movements or states, visually-evoked neural activity, and neural noise modes would identify the additional neural ensembles which are correlated with and drive this additional motor output.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Manley and Vaziri designed and built a Fourier light-field microscope (fLFM) inspired by previous implementations but improved and exclusively from commercially available components so others can more easily reproduce the design. They combined this with the design of novel algorithms to efficiently extract whole-brain activity from larval zebrafish brains.

      This new microscope was applied to the question of the origin of behavioral variability. In an assay in which larval zebrafish are exposed to visual dots of various sizes, the fish respond by turning left or right or not responding at all. Neural activity was decomposed into an activity that encodes the stimulus reliably across trials, a 'noise' mode that varies across trials, and a mode that predicts tail movements. A series of analyses showed that trial-to-trial variability was largely orthogonal to activity patterns that encoded the stimulus and that these noise modes were related to the larvae's behavior.

      To identify the origins of behavioral variability, classifiers were fit to the neural data to predict whether the larvae turned left or right or did not respond. A set of neurons that were highly distributed across the brain could be used to classify and predict behavior. These neurons could also predict spontaneous behavior that was not induced by stimuli above chance levels. The work concludes with findings on the distributed nature of single-trial decision-making and behavioral variability.

      Strengths:

      The design of the new fLFM microscope is a significant advance in light-field and computational microscopy, and the open-source design and software are promising to bring this technology into the hands of many neuroscientists.

      The study addresses a series of important questions in systems neuroscience related to sensory coding, trial-to-trial variability in sensory responses, and trial-to-trial variability in behavior. The study combines microscopy, behavior, dynamics, and analysis and produces a well-integrated analysis of brain dynamics for visual processing and behavior. The analyses are generally thoughtful and of high quality. This study also produces many follow-up questions and opportunities, such as using the methods to look at individual brain regions more carefully, applying multiple stimuli, investigating finer tail movements and how these are encoded in the brain, and the connectivity that gives rise to the observed activity. Answering questions about variability in neural activity in the entire brain and its relationship to behavior is important to neuroscience and this study has done that to an interesting and rigorous degree.

      Points of improvement and weaknesses:

      The results on noise modes may be a bit less surprising than they are portrayed. The orthogonality between neural activity patterns encoding the sensory stimulus and the noise modes should be interpreted within the confounds of orthogonality in high-dimensional spaces. In higher dimensional spaces, it becomes more likely that two random vectors are almost orthogonal. Since the neural activity measurements performed in this study are quite high dimensional, a more explicit discussion is warranted about the small chance that the modes are not almost orthogonal.

      We agree with the reviewer that orthogonality is less “surprising” in high-dimensional spaces, and we have added this important point of interpretation to our revised manuscript. Still, it is important to remember that while the full neural state space is very high-dimensional (we record that activity of up to tens of thousands of neurons simultaneously), our analyses regarding the relationship between the trial-to-trial noise modes and decoding dimensions were performed in a low-dimensional subspace (up to 20 dimensions) identified by PLS regression to that optimally preserved visual information. This is a key step in our analysis which serves two purposes: 1. it removes some of the confound described the reviewer regarding the dimensionality of the neural state space analyzed; and 2. it ensures that the noise modes we analyze are even relevant to sensorimotor processing. It would certainly not be surprising or interesting if we identified a neural dimension outside the midbrain which was orthogonal to the optimal visual decoding dimension. 

      Regardless, in order to better control for this confound, we estimated the distribution of angles between random vectors in this subspace. As we describe in the revised manuscript:

      “However, in high-dimensional spaces, it becomes increasingly common that two random vectors could appear orthogonal. While this is particularly a concern when analyzing a neural state space spanned by tens of thousands of neurons, our application of PLS regression to identify a low-dimensional subspace of relevant neuronal activity partially mitigates this concern. In order to control for this confound, we compared the angles between w<sub>opt</sub> and e1 across larvae to that computed with shuffled versions of w<sub>opt,shuff</sub> estimated by randomly shuffling the stimulus labels before identifying the optimal decoding direction. While it is possible to observe shuffled vectors which are nearly orthogonal to e<sub>1</sub>, the shuffled distribution spans a significantly greater range of angles than the observed data, demonstrating that this orthogonality is not simply a consequence of analyzing multi-dimensional activity patterns.”

      The conclusion that sparsely distributed sets of neurons produce behavioral variability needs more investigation because the way the results are shown could lead to some misinterpretations. The prediction of behavior from classifiers applied to neural activity is interesting, but the results are insufficiently presented for two reasons.

      (1) The neurons that contribute to the classifiers (Figures 4H and J) form a sufficient set of neurons that predict behavior, but this does not mean that neurons outside of that set cannot be used to predict behavior. Lasso regularization was used to create the classifiers and this induces sparsity. This means that if many neurons predict behavior but they do so similarly, the classifier may select only a few of them. This is not a problem in itself but it means that the distributions of neurons across the brain (Figures 4H and J) may appear sparser and more distributed than the full set of neurons that contribute to producing the behavior. This ought to be discussed better to avoid misinterpretation of the brain distribution results, and an alternative analysis that avoids the confound could help clarify.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point, which we agree should be discussed in the manuscript. Lasso regularization was a key ingredient in our analysis; l2 regularization alone was not sufficient to prevent overfitting to the training trials, particularly when decoding turn direction and responsiveness. Previous studies have also found that sparse subsets of neurons better predict behavior than single neuron or non-sparse populations, for example Scholz et al. (2018).

      While showing l2 regularization would not be a fair comparison given the poor performance of the l2-regularized classifiers, we opted to identify a potentially “fuller” set of neurons correlated with these biases based on the correlation between each neuron’s activity over the recording and the projection along the turn direction or responsiveness dimension identified using l1 regularization. This procedure has the potential to identify all neurons correlated with the final ensemble dynamics, rather than just a “sufficient set” for lasso regression. In new Figures S5F-G, we show the 3D distribution of all neurons significantly correlated with these biases, which appear similar to those in Figures 4H-K and widely distributed across practically the entire labeled area of the brain.

      (2) The distribution of neurons is shown in an overly coarse manner in only a flattened brain seen from the top, and the brain is divided into four coarse regions (telencephalon, tectum, cerebellum, hindbrain). This makes it difficult to assess where the neurons are and whether those four coarse divisions are representative or whether the neurons are in other non-labeled deeper regions. For these two reasons, some of the statements about the distribution of neurons across the brain would benefit from a more thorough investigation.

      We agree with the reviewer that a more thorough description and visualization of these distributed populations is warranted.

      While the dense, pan-neuronal labeling makes the isolation of highly specific circuit components difficult, we have shown in more detail the specific brain regions contributing to these populations by aligning our recordings to the Z-Brain atlas (Randlett et al., 2015) as shown in new Figures S1E, S3F-G, 4I, 4K, and S5F-G. In addition, we provided a more detailed parcellation of the neuronal ensembles by providing projections of the full 3D volume along the xy and yz axes, in addition to the unregistered xy projection shown in new Figures 4H and 4J. We also found that the distribution of neurons in our huc:H2B-GCaMP6s recordings is very similar to the distribution of labeling in the huc:H2B-RFP reference image from the Z-Brain atlas (new Figure S1E), which further supports our whole-brain imaging results.

      Overall, we find that this more detailed quantification and visualization is consistent with the interpretations in the previous version of our manuscript. In particular, we show that optimal visual decoding population (w<sub>opt</sub>) and largest noise mode (e1) are localized to the midbrain (new Figures S3F-G), which is expected since in Figure 3 we first extracted a low-dimensional subspace of whole-brain neural activity that optimally preserved visual information. Additionally, we provide additional evidence that the populations correlated with the turn bias and responsiveness bias are distributed throughout the brain, including a relatively dense localization to the cerebellum, telencephalon, and dorsal diencephalon (habenula, new Figures 4H-K and S5F-G).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In addition to the overall strengths and weaknesses above, I have a few specific comments that I think could improve the study:

      (1) In lines 334-335 you write that 'We proceeded to build various logistic regression classifiers to decode'. Do you mean you tested this with other classifier types as well (e.g. SVM, Naive Bayes) or do you mean various because you trained the classifier described in the methods on each animal? This is not clear. If it is the first, more information is needed about what other classifiers you used.

      We appreciate the reviewer raising this point of clarification. Here, we simply meant that we fit the multiclass logistic regression classifier in the one-vs-rest scheme. In this sense, a single multiclass logistic regression classifier was fit for each larva. We have updated our revised manuscript with this clarification: “The visual stimuli were decoded using a one-versus-rest, multiclass logistic regression classifier with lasso regularization.”

      (2) In Figure 3 you train the decoder on all visually responsive cells identified across the brain. Does this reliability of stimulus decoding also hold for neurons sampled from specific brain regions? For example, does this reliable decoding come from stronger and more reliable responses in the optic tectum, whereas stimulus decodability is not as good in visual encoding neurons identified in other structures?

      In new Figure S5B, we show the performance of stimulus decoding from various brain regions. We find that stimulus classification is possible from the midbrain and cerebellum, very poor from the hindbrain, and not possible from the telencephalon during the period between stimulus onset and the decision.

      (3) In relation to point 2, it would be good to show in which brain areas the visually responsive neurons are located, and maybe the average coefficients per brain area. Plots like Figures 3G, and H would benefit from a quantification into areas. Similarly, a parcellation into more specific brain areas in Figure 4 would also be valuable.

      In addition to providing a more detailed parcellation of the turn direction and responsiveness bias populations in Figure 4, we have provided a similar visualization and quantification of the optimal stimulus decoding population and the dominant noise mode in new Figures S3F-G, respectively.

      (4) In Figure 3f, it is not clear to me how this shows that w<sub>opt</sub> and e1 are orthogonal. They appear correlated.

      The orthogonality we quantify is related to the pattern of coefficients across neurons, not necessarily the timeseries of their projections. The slight shift in the noise mode activations as you move from stimuli on the left visual field to the right actually comes from the motor outputs. Large left stimuli tend to evoke a rightward turn and vice versa, and the example noise mode shown encodes the directionality and vigor of tail movements, resulting in the slight shifts observed.

      (5) I think the wording of this conclusion is too strong for the results and a bit illogical:

      'Thus, our data suggest that the neural dynamics underlying single-trial action selection are the result of a widely-distributed circuit that contains subpopulations encoding internal time-varying biases related to both the larva's responsiveness and turn direction, yet distinct from the sensory encoding circuitry.'

      If that is the case, how is it even possible that the larvae can do a visually guided behaviour?

      Especially given Suppl Fig 4C it would be more appropriate to say something along the lines of: 'When stimuli are highly ambiguous, single trial action selection is dominated by widely-distributed circuit that contains subpopulations encoding internal time-varying biases related to both the larva's responsiveness and turn direction, that encode choice distinctly from the sensory encoding circuitry'.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion and have re-worded this line in the discussion in order to clarify that these time-varying biases are predominant in the case of ambiguous stimuli, as shown in Figure S5C in our revised manuscript (corresponding to Figure S4C in our original submission).

      (6) Line 599: typo: trial-to-trail

      We thank the reviewer for noting this error, which has been corrected in the revised text of the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      As you will see, the main changes in the revised manuscript pertain to the structure and content of the introduction. Specifically, we have tried to more clearly introduce our paradigm, the rationale behind the paradigm, why it is different from learning paradigms, and why we study “relief”.

      In this rebuttal letter, we will go over the reviewers’ comments one-by-one and highlight how we have adapted our manuscript accordingly. However, because one concern was raised by all reviewers, we will start with an in-depth discussion of this concern.

      The shared concern pertained to the validity of the EVA task as a model to study threat omission responses. Specifically, all reviewers questioned the effectivity of our so-called “inaccurate”, “false” or “ruse” instructions in triggering an equivalent level of shock expectancy, and relatedly, how this effectivity was affected by dynamic learning over the course of the task.

      We want to thank the reviewers for raising this important issue. Indeed, it is a vital part of our design and it therefore deserves considerable attention. It is now clear to us that in the previous version of the manuscript we may have focused too little on why we moved away from a learning paradigm, and how we made sure that the instructions were successful at raising the necessary expectations; and how the instructions were affected by learning. We believe this has resulted in some misunderstandings, which consequently may have cast doubts on our results. In the following sections, we will go into these issues.

      The rationale behind our instructed design

      The main aim of our study was to investigate brain responses to unexpected omissions of threat in greater detail by examining their similarity to the reward prediction error axioms (Caplin & Dean, 2008), and exploring the link with subjective relief. Specifically, we hypothesized that omission-related responses should be dependent on the probability and the intensity of the expected-but-omitted aversive event (i.e., electrical stimulation), meaning that the response should be larger when the expected stimulation was stronger and more expected, and that fully predicted outcomes should not trigger a difference in responding.

      To this end, we required that participants had varying levels of threat probability and intensity predictions, and that these predictions would most of the time be violated. Although we fully agree with the reviewers that fear conditioning and extinction paradigms can provide an excellent way to track the teaching properties of prediction error responses (i.e., how they are used to update expectancies on future trials), we argued that they are less suited to create the varying probability and intensity-related conditions we required (see Willems & Vervliet, 2021). Specifically, in a standard conditioning task participants generally learn fast, rendering relatively few trials on which the prediction is violated. As a result, there is generally little intraindividual variability in the prediction error responses. This precludes an in-depth analysis of the probability-related effects. Furthermore, conditioning paradigms generally only include one level of aversive outcome: the electrical stimulation is either delivered or omitted. As a result, intensity-related effects cannot be tested. Finally, because CS-US contingencies change over the course of a fear conditioning and extinction study (e.g. from acquisition to extinction), there is never complete certainty about when the US will (not) follow. This precludes a direct comparison of fully predicted outcomes.

      Another added value of studying responses to the prediction error at threat omission outside a learning context is that it can offer a way to disentangle responses to the violation of threat expectancy, with those of subsequent expectancy updating.

      Also note that Rutledge and colleagues (2010), who were the first to show that human fMRI responses in the Nucleus Accumbens comply to the reward prediction error axioms also did not use learning experiences to induce expectancy. In that sense, we argued it was not necessary to adopt a learning paradigm to study threat omission responses.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We included two new paragraphs in the introduction of the revised manuscript to elaborate on why we opted not to use a learning paradigm in the present study (lines 90-112).

      “However, is a correlation with the theoretical PE over time sufficient for neural activations/relief to be classified as a PE-signal? In the context of reward, Caplin and colleagues proposed three necessary and sufficient criteria all PE-signals should comply to, independent of the exact operationalizations of expectancy and reward (the socalled axiomatic approach24,25; which has also been applied to aversive PE26–28). Specifically, the magnitude of a PE signal should: (1) be positively related to the magnitude of the reward (larger rewards trigger larger PEs); (2) be negatively related to likelihood of the reward (more probable rewards trigger smaller PEs); and (3) not differentiate between fully predicted outcomes of different magnitudes (if there is no error in prediction, there should be no difference in the PE signal).”

      “It is evident that fear conditioning and extinction paradigms have been invaluable for studying the role of the threat omission PE within a learning context. However, these paradigms are not tailored to create the varying intensity and probability-related conditions that are required to evaluate the threat omission PE in the light of the PE axioms. First, conditioning paradigms generally only include one level of aversive outcome: the electrical stimulation is either delivered or omitted. As a result, the magnitude-related axiom cannot be tested. Second, in conditioning tasks people generally learn fast, rendering relatively few trials on which the prediction is violated. As a result, there is generally little intra-individual variability in the PE responses. Moreover, because of the relatively low signal to noise ratio in fMRI measures, fear extinction studies often pool across trials to compare omission-related activity between early and late extinction16, which further reduces the necessary variability to properly evaluate the probability axiom. Third, because CS-US contingencies change over the course of the task (e.g. from acquisition to extinction), there is never complete certainty about whether the US will (not) follow. This precludes a direct comparison of fully predicted outcomes. Finally, within a learning context, it remains unclear whether PErelated responses are in fact responses to the violation of expectancy itself, or whether they are the result of subsequent expectancy updating.”

      Can verbal instructions be used to raise the expectancy of shock?

      The most straightforward way to obtain sufficient variability in both probability and intensityrelated predictions is by directly providing participants with instructions on the probability and intensity of the electrical stimulation. In a previous behavioral study, we have shown that omission responses (self-reported relief and omission SCR) indeed varied with these instructions (Willems & Vervliet, 2021). In addition, the manipulation checks that are reported in the supplemental material provided further support that the verbal instructions were effective at raising the associated expectancy of stimulation. Specifically, participants recollected having received more stimulations after higher probability instructions (see Supplemental Figure 2). Furthermore, we found that anticipatory SCR, which we used as a proxy of fearful expectation, increased with increasing probability and intensity (see Supplemental Figure 3). This suggests that it is not necessary to have expectation based on previous experience if we want to evaluate threat omission responses in the light of the prediction error axioms.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We more clearly referred to the manipulation checks that are presented in the supplementary material in the results section of the main paper (lines 135-141).

      “The verbal instructions were effective at raising the expectation of receiving the electrical stimulation in line with the provided probability and intensity levels. Anticipatory SCR, which we used as a proxy of fearful expectation, increased as a function of the probability and intensity instructions (see Supplementary Figure 3). Accordingly, post-experimental questions revealed that by the end of the experiment participants recollected having received more stimulations after higher probability instructions, and were willing to exert more effort to prevent stronger hypothetical stimulations (see Supplementary Figure 2).”

      How did the inconsistency between the instructed and experienced probability impact our results?

      All reviewers questioned how the inconsistency between the instructed and experienced probability might have impacted the probability-related results. However, judging from the way the comments were framed, it seems that part of the concern was based on a misunderstanding of the design we employed. Specifically, reviewer 1 mentions that “To ensure that the number of omissions is similar across conditions, the task employs inaccurate verbal instructions; I.e., 25% of shocks are omitted regardless of whether subjects are told that the probability is 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%, 0%.”, and reviewer 3 states that “... the fact remains that they do not get shocks outside of the 100% probability shock. So learning is occurring, at least for subjects who realize the probability cue is actually a ruse.” We want to emphasize that this was not what we did, and if it were true, we fully agree with the reviewers that it would have caused serious trust- and learning related issues, given that it would be immediately evident to participants that probability instructions were false. It is clear that under such circumstances, dynamic learning would be a big issue.

      However, in our task 0% and 100% instructions were always accurate. This means that participants never received a stimulus following 0% instructions and always received the stimulation of the given intensity on the 100% instructions (see Supplemental Figure 1 for an overview of the trial types). Only for the 25%, 50% and 75% trials an equal reinforcement rate (25%) was maintained, meaning that the stimulation followed in 25% of the trials, irrespective of whether a 25%, 50% or 75% instruction was given. The reason for this was that we wanted to maximize and balance the number of omission trials across the different probability levels, while also keeping the total number of presentations per probability instruction constant. We reasoned that equating the reinforcement rate across the 25%, 50% and 75% instructions should not be detrimental, because (1) in these trials there was always the possibility that a stimulation would follow; and (2) we instructed the participants that each trial is independent of the previous ones, which should have discouraged them to actively count the number of shocks in order to predict future shocks.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We have tried to further clarify the design in several sections of the manuscript, including the introduction (lines 121-125), results (line 220) and methods (lines 478-484) sections:

      Adaptation in the Introduction section: “Specifically, participants received trial-by-trial instructions about the probability (0%, 25%, 50%, 75% and 100%) and intensity (weak, moderate, strong) of a potentially painful upcoming electrical stimulation, time-locked by a countdown clock (see Fig.1A). While stimulations were always delivered on 100% trials and never on 0% trials, most of the other trials (25%-75%) did not contain the expected stimulation and hence provoked an omission PE.”

      Adaptation in the Results section: “Indeed, the provided instructions did not map exactly onto the actually experienced probabilities, but were all followed by stimulation in 25% on the trials (except for the 0% trials and the 100% trials).”

      Adaptation in the Methods section: “Since we were mainly interested in how omissions of threat are processed, we wanted to maximize and balance the number of omission trials across the different probability and intensity levels, while also keeping the total number of presentations per probability and intensity instruction constant. Therefore, we crossed all non-0% probability levels (25, 50, 75, 100) with all intensity levels (weak, moderate, strong) (12 trials). The three 100% trials were always followed by the stimulation of the instructed intensity, while stimulations were omitted in the remaining nine trials. Six additional trials were intermixed in each run: Three 0% omission trials with the information that no electrical stimulation would follow (akin to 0% Probability information, but without any Intensity information as it does not apply); and three trials from the Probability x Intensity matrix that were followed by electrical stimulation (across the four runs, each Probability x Intensity combination was paired at least once, and at most twice with the electrical stimulation).”

      Could the incongruence between the instructed and experienced reinforcement rate have detrimental effects on the probability effect? We agree with reviewer 2 that it is possible that the inconsistency between instructed and experienced reinforcement rates could have rendered the exact probability information less informative to participants, which might have resulted in them paying less attention to the probability information whenever the probability was not 0% or 100%. This might to some extent explain the relatively larger difference in responding between 0% and 25% to 75% trials, but the relatively smaller differences between the 25% to 75% trials.

      However, there are good reasons to believe that the relatively smaller difference between 25% to 75% trials was not caused by the “inaccurate” nature of our instructions, but is inherent to “uncertain” probabilities.

      We added a description of these reasons to the supplementary materials in a supplementary note (supplementary note 4; lines 97-129 in supplementary materials), and added a reference to this note in the methods section (lines 488-490).

      “Supplementary Note 4: “Accurate” probability instructions do not alter the Probability-effect

      A question that was raised by the reviewers was whether the inconsistency between the probability instruction and the experienced reinforcement rate could have detrimental effects on the Probability-related results; especially because the effect of Probability was smaller when only including non-0% trials.

      However, there are good reasons to believe that the relatively smaller difference between 25% to 75% trials was not caused by the “inaccurate” nature of our instructions, but that they are inherent to “uncertain” probabilities.

      First, in a previously unpublished pilot study, we provided participants with “accurate” probability instructions, meaning that the instruction corresponded to the actual reinforcement rate (e.g., 75% instructions were followed by a stimulation in 75% of the trials etc.). In line with the present results and our previous behavioral study (Willems & Vervliet, 2021), the results of this pilot (N = 20) showed that the difference in the reported relief between the different probability levels was largest when comparing 0% and the rest (25%, 50% and 75%). Furthermore the overall effect size of Probability (excluding 0%) matched the one of our previous behavioral study (Willems & Vervliet, 2021): ηp2 = +/- 0.50.”

      Author response image 1.

      Main effect of Probability including 0% : F(1.74,31.23) = 53.94, p < .001, ηp2 = 0.75. Main effect of Probability excluding 0%: F(1.50, 28.43) = 21.03, p < .001, ηp2 = 0.53.

      Second, also in other published studies that used CSs with varying reinforcement rates (which either included explicit written instructions of the reinforcement rates or not) showed that the difference in expectations, anticipatory SCR or omission SCR was largest when comparing the CS0% to the other CSs of varying reinforcement rates (Grings & Sukoneck, 1971; Öhman et al., 1973; Ojala et al., 2022).

      Together, this suggests that when there is a possibility of stimulation, any additional difference in probability will have a smaller effect on the omission responses, irrespective of whether the underlying reinforcement rate is accurate or not.

      Adaptation to methods section: “Note that, based on previous research, we did not expect the inconsistency between the instructed and perceived reinforcement rate to have a negative effect on the Probability manipulation (see Supplementary Note 4).”

      Did dynamic learning impact the believability of the instructions?

      Although we tried to minimize learning in our paradigm by providing instructions that trials are independent from one another, we agree with the reviewers that this cannot preclude all learning. Any remaining learning effects should present themselves by downweighing the effect of the probability instructions over time. We controlled for this time-effect by including a “run” regressor in our analyses. Results of the Run regressor for subjective relief and omission-related SCR are presented in Supplemental Figure 5. These figures show that although there was a general drop in reported relief pleasantness and omission SCR over time, the effects of probability and intensity remained present until the last run. This indicates that even though some learning might have taken place, the main manipulations of probability and intensity were still present until the end of the task.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We more clearly referred to the results of the Blockregressor which were presented in the supplementary material in the results section of the main paper (lines 159-162).

      Note that while there was a general drop in reported relief pleasantness and omission SCR over time, the effects of Probability and Intensity remained present until the last run (see Supplementary Figure 5). This further confirms that probability and intensity manipulations were effective until the end of the task.

      In the following sections of the rebuttal letter, we will go over the rest of the comments and our responses one by one.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Willems and colleagues test whether unexpected shock omissions are associated with reward-related prediction errors by using an axiomatic approach to investigate brain activation in response to unexpected shock omission. Using an elegant design that parametrically varies shock expectancy through verbal instructions, they see a variety of responses in reward-related networks, only some of which adhere to the axioms necessary for prediction error. In addition, there were associations between omission-related responses and subjective relief. They also use machine learning to predict relief-related pleasantness, and find that none of the a priori "reward" regions were predictive of relief, which is an interesting finding that can be validated and pursued in future work.

      Strengths:

      The authors pre-registered their approach and the analyses are sound. In particular, the axiomatic approach tests whether a given region can truly be called a reward prediction error. Although several a priori regions of interest satisfied a subset of axioms, no ROI satisfied all three axioms, and the authors were candid about this. A second strength was their use of machine learning to identify a relief-related classifier. Interestingly, none of the ROIs that have been traditionally implicated in reward prediction error reliably predicted relief, which opens important questions for future research.

      Weaknesses:

      To ensure that the number of omissions is similar across conditions, the task employs inaccurate verbal instructions; i.e. 25% of shocks are omitted, regardless of whether subjects are told that the probability is 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%, or 0%. Given previous findings on interactions between verbal instruction and experiential learning (Doll et al., 2009; Li et al., 2011; Atlas et al., 2016), it seems problematic a) to treat the instructions as veridical and b) average responses over time. Based on this prior work, it seems reasonable to assume that participants would learn to downweight the instructions over time through learning (particularly in the 100% and 0% cases); this would be the purpose of prediction errors as a teaching signal. The authors do recognize this and perform a subset analysis in the 21 participants who showed parametric increases in anticipatory SCR as a function of instructed shock probability, which strengthened findings in the VTA/SN; however given that one-third of participants (n=10) did not show parametric SCR in response to instructions, it seems like some learning did occur. As prediction error is so important to such learning, a weakness of the paper is that conclusions about prediction error might differ if dynamic learning were taken into account.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important concern. We believe we replied to all the issues raised in the general reply above.

      Lastly, I think that findings in threat-sensitive regions such as the anterior insula and amygdala may not be adequately captured in the title or abstract which strictly refers to the "human reward system"; more nuance would also be warranted.

      We fully agree with this comment and have changed the title and abstract accordingly.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We adapted the title of the manuscript.

      “Omissions of Threat Trigger Subjective Relief and Prediction Error-Like Signaling in the Human Reward and Salience Systems”

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We adapted the abstract (lines 27-29).

      “In line with recent animal data, we showed that the unexpected omission of (painful) electrical stimulation triggers activations within key regions of the reward and salience pathways and that these activations correlate with the pleasantness of the reported relief.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The question of whether the neural mechanisms for reward and punishment learning are similar has been a constant debate over the last two decades. Numerous studies have shown that the midbrain dopamine neurons respond to both negative and salient stimuli, some of which can't be well accounted for by the classic RL theory (Delgado et al., 2007). Other research even proposed that aversive learning can be viewed as reward learning, by treating the omission of aversive stimuli as a negative PE (Seymour et al., 2004).

      Although the current study took an axiomatic approach to search for the PE encoding brain regions, which I like, I have major concerns regarding their experimental design and hence the results they obtained. My biggest concern comes from the false description of their task to the participants. To increase the number of "valid" trials for data analysis, the instructed and actual probabilities were different. Under such a circumstance, testing axiom 2 seems completely artificial. How does the experimenter know that the participants truly believe that the 75% is more probable than, say, the 25% stimulation? The potential confusion of the subjects may explain why the SCR and relief report were rather flat across the instructed probability range, and some of the canonical PE encoding regions showed a rather mixed activity pattern across different probabilities. Also for the post-hoc selection criteria, why pick the larger SCR in the 75% compared to the 25% instructions? How would the results change if other criteria were used?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important concern. We believe the general reply above covers most of the issues raised in this comment. Concerning the post-hoc selection criteria, we took 25% < 75% as criterium because this was a quite “lenient” criterium in the sense that it looked only at the effects of interest (i.e., did anticipatory SCR increase with increasing instructed probability?). However, also when the criterium was more strict (e.g., selecting participants only if their anticipatory SCR monotonically increased with each increase in instructed probability 0% < 25% < 50% < 75% < 100%, N = 11 participants), the probability effect (ωp2 = 0.08), but not the intensity effect, for the VTA/SN remained.

      To test axiom 3, which was to compare the 100% stimulation to the 0% stimulation conditions, how did the actual shock delivery affect the fMRI contrast result? It would be more reasonable if this analysis could control for the shock delivery, which itself could contaminate the fMRI signal, with extra confound that subjects may engage certain behavioral strategies to "prepare for" the aversive outcome in the 100% stimulation condition. Therefore, I agree with the authors that this contrast may not be a good way to test axiom 3, not only because of the arguments made in the discussion but also the technical complexities involved in the contrast.

      We thank the reviewer for addressing this additional confound. It was indeed impossible to control for the delivery of shock since the delivery of the shock was always present on the 100% trials (and thus completely overlapped with the contrast of interest). We added this limitation to our discussion in the manuscript. In addition, we have also added a suggestion for a contrast that can test the “no surprise equivalence” criterium.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We adapted lines 358-364.

      “Thus, given that we could not control for the delivery of the stimulation in the 100% > 0% contrast (the delivery of the stimulation completely overlapped with the contrast of interest), it is impossible to disentangle responses to the salience of the stimulation from those to the predictability of the outcome. A fairer evaluation of the third axiom would require outcomes that are roughly similar in terms of salience. When evaluating threat omission PE, this implies comparing fully expected threat omissions following 0% instructions to fully expected absence of stimulation at another point in the task (e.g. during a safe intertrial interval).”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      We thank the reviewer for their comments. Overall, based on the reviewer’s comments, we noticed that there was an imbalance between a focus on “relief” in the introduction and the rest of the manuscript and preregistration. We believe this focus raised the expectation that all outcome measures were interpreted in terms of the relief emotion. However, this was not what we did nor what we preregistered. We therefore restructured the introduction to reduce the focus on relief.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We restructured the introduction of the manuscript. Specifically, after our opening sentence: “We experience a pleasurable relief when an expected threat stays away1” we only introduce the role of relief for our research in lines 79-89.

      “Interestingly, unexpected omissions of threat not only trigger neural activations that resemble a reward PE, they are also accompanied by a pleasurable emotional experience: relief. Because these feelings of relief coincide with the PE at threat omission, relief has been proposed to be an emotional correlate of the threat omission PE. Indeed, emerging evidence has shown that subjective experiences of relief follow the same time-course as theoretical PE during fear extinction. Participants in fear extinction experiments report high levels of relief pleasantness during early US omissions (when the omission was unexpected and the theoretical PE was high) and decreasing relief pleasantness over later omissions (when the omission was expected and the theoretical PE was low)22,23. Accordingly, preliminary fMRI evidence has shown that the pleasantness of this relief is correlated to activations in the NAC at the time of threat omission. In that sense, studying relief may offer important insights in the mechanism driving safety learning.”

      Summary:

      The authors conducted a human fMRI study investigating the omission of expected electrical shocks with varying probabilities. Participants were informed of the probability of shock and shock intensity trial-by-trial. The time point corresponding to the absence of the expected shock (with varying probability) was framed as a prediction error producing the cognitive state of relief/pleasure for the participant. fMRI activity in the VTA/SN and ventral putamen corresponded to the surprising omission of a high probability shock. Participants' subjective relief at having not been shocked correlated with activity in brain regions typically associated with reward-prediction errors. The overall conclusion of the manuscript was that the absence of an expected aversive outcome in human fMRI looks like a reward-prediction error seen in other studies that use positive outcomes.

      Strengths:

      Overall, I found this to be a well-written human neuroimaging study investigating an often overlooked question on the role of aversive prediction errors, and how they may differ from reward-related prediction errors. The paper is well-written and the fMRI methods seem mostly rigorous and solid.

      Weaknesses:

      I did have some confusion over the use of the term "prediction-error" however as it is being used in this task. There is certainly an expectancy violation when participants are told there is a high probability of shock, and it doesn't occur. Yet, there is no relevant learning or updating, and participants are explicitly told that each trial is independent and the outcome (or lack thereof) does not affect the chances of getting the shock on another trial with the same instructed outcome probability. Prediction errors are primarily used in the context of a learning model (reinforcement learning, etc.), but without a need to learn, the utility of that signal is unclear.

      We operationalized “prediction error” as the response to the error in prediction or the violation of expectancy at the time of threat omission. In that sense, prediction error and expectancy violation (which is more commonly used in clinical research and psychotherapy; Craske et al., 2014) are synonymous. While prediction errors (or expectancy violations) are predominantly studied in learning situations, the definition in itself does not specify how the “expectancy” or “prediction” arises: whether it was through learning based on previous experience or through mere instruction. The rationale why we moved away from a conditioning study in the present manuscript is discussed in our general reply above.

      We agree with the reviewer that studying prediction errors outside a learning context limits the ecological validity of the task. However, we do believe there is also a strength to this approach. Specifically, the omission-related responses we measure are less confounded by subsequent learning (or updating of the wrongful expectation). Any difference between our results and prediction error responses in learning situation can therefore point to this exact difference in paradigm, and can thus identify responses that are specific to learning situations.

      An overarching question posed by the researchers is whether relief from not receiving a shock is a reward. They take as neural evidence activity in regions usually associated with reward prediction errors, like the VTA/SN . This seems to be a strong case of reverse inference. The evidence may have been stronger had the authors compared activity to a reward prediction error, for example using a similar task but with reward outcomes. As it stands, the neural evidence that the absence of shock is actually "pleasurable" is limited-albeit there is a subjective report asking subjects if they felt relief.

      We thank the reviewer for cautioning us and letting us critically reflect on our interpretation. We agree that it is important not to be overly enthusiastic when interpreting fMRI results and to attribute carelessly psychological functions to mere activations. Therefore, we will elaborate on the precautions we took not to minimize detrimental reverse inference.

      First, prior to analyzing our results, we preregistered clear hypotheses that were based on previous research, in addition to clear predictions, regions of interest and a testing approach on OSF. With our study, we wanted to investigate whether unexpected omissions of threat: (1) triggered activations in the VTA/SN, putamen, NAc and vmPFC (as has previously been shown in animal and human studies); (2) represent PE signals; and (3) were related to self-reported relief, which has also been shown to follow a PE time-curve in fear extinction (Vervliet et al., 2017). Based on previous research, we selected three criteria all PE signals should comply to. This means that if omission-related activations were to represent true PE signals, they should comply to these criteria. However, we agree that it would go too far to conclude based on our research that relief is a reward, or even that the omission-related activations represent only PE signals. While we found support for most of our hypotheses, this does not preclude alternative explanations. In fact, in the discussion, we acknowledge this and also discuss alternative explanations, such as responding to the salience (lines 395-397; “One potential explanation is therefore that the deactivation resulted from a switch from default mode to salience network, triggered by the salience of the unexpected threat omission or by the salience of the experienced stimulation.”), or anticipation (line 425-426; “... we cannot conclusively dismiss the alternative interpretation that we assessed (part of) expectancy instead”).

      Second, we have deliberately opted to only use descriptive labels such as omission-related activations when we are discussing fMRI results. Only when we are talking about how the activations were related to self-reported relief, we talk about relief-related activations.

      I have some other comments, and I elaborate on those above comments, below:

      (1) A major assumption in the paper is that the unexpected absence of danger constitutes a pleasurable event, as stated in the opening sentence of the abstract. This may sometimes be the case, but it is not universal across contexts or people. For instance, for pathological fears, any relief derived from exposure may be short-lived (the dog didn't bite me this time, but that doesn't mean it won't next time or that all dogs are safe). And even if the subjective feeling one gets is temporary relief at that moment when the expected aversive event is not delivered, I believe there is an overall conflation between the concepts of relief and pleasure throughout the manuscript. Overall, the manuscript seems to be framed on the assumption that "aversive expectations can transform neutral outcomes into pleasurable events," but this is situationally dependent and is not a common psychological construct as far as I am aware.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. We have restructured the introduction because we agree with the reviewer that the introduction might have set false expectations concerning our interpretation of the results. The statements related to relief have been toned down in the revised manuscript.

      Still, we want to note that the initial opening statement “unexpected absence of danger constitutes the pleasurable emotion relief” was based on a commonly used definition of relief that states that relief refers to “the emotion that is triggered by the absence of expected or previously experienced negative stimulation ” (Deutsch, 2015). Both aspects that it is elicited by the absence of an otherwise expected aversive event and that it is pleasurable in nature has received considerable empirical support in emotion and fear conditioning research (Deutsch et al., 2015; Leknes et al., 2011; Papalini et al., 2021; Vervliet et al., 2017; Willems & Vervliet, 2021).

      That said, the notion that the feeling of relief is linked to the (reward) prediction error underlying the learning of safety is included in several theoretical papers in order to explain the commonly observed dopaminergic response at the time of threat omission (both in animals and humans; Bouton et al., 2020; Kalisch et al., 2019; Pittig et al., 2020).

      Together, these studies indicate that the definition of relief, and its potential role in threat omission-driven learning is – at least in our research field – established. Still, we felt that more direct research linking feelings of relief to omission-related brain responses was warranted.

      One of the main reasons why we specifically focus on the “pleasantness” of the relief is to assess the hedonic impact of the threat omission, as has been done in previous studies by our lab and others (Leknes et al., 2011; Leng et al., 2022; Papalini et al., 2021; Vervliet et al., 2017; Willems & Vervliet, 2021). Nevertheless, we agree with the reviewer that the relief we measure is a short-lived emotional state that is subjected to individual differences (as are all emotions).

      (2) The authors allude to this limitation, but I think it is critical. Specifically, the study takes a rather simplistic approach to prediction errors. It treats the instructed probability as the subjects' expectancy level and treats the prediction error as omission related activity to this instructed probability. There is no modeling, and any dynamic parameters affected by learning are unaccounted for in this design . That is subjects are informed that each trial is independently determined and so there is no learning "the presence/absence of stimulations on previous trials could not predict the presence/absence of stimulation on future trials." Prediction errors are central to learning. It is unclear if the "relief" subjects feel on not getting a shock on a high-probability trial is in any way analogous to a prediction error, because there is no reason to update your representation on future trials if they are all truly independent. The construct validity of the design is in question.

      (3) Related to the above point, even if subjects veered away from learning by the instruction that each trial is independent, the fact remains that they do not get shocks outside of the 100% probability shock. So learning is occurring, at least for subjects who realize the probability cue is actually a ruse.

      We thank the reviewer for raising these concerns. We believe that the general reply above covers the issues raised in points 2 and 3.

      (4) Bouton has described very well how the absence of expected threat during extinction can create a feeling of ambiguity and uncertainty regarding the signal value of the CS. This in large part explains the contextual dependence of extinction and the "return of fear" that is so prominent even in psychologically healthy participants. The relief people feel when not receiving an expected shock would seem to have little bearing on changing the long-term value of the CS. In any event, the authors do talk about conditioning (CS-US) in the paper, but this is not a typical conditioning study, as there is no learning.

      We fully agree with the reviewer that our study is no typical conditioning study. Nevertheless, because our research mostly builds on recent advances in the fear extinction domain, we felt it was necessary to introduce the fear extinction procedure and related findings. In the context of fear extinction learning, we have previously shown that relief is an emotional correlate of the prediction error driving acquisition of the novel safety memory (CSnoUS; Papalini et al., 2021; Vervliet et al., 2017). The ambiguity Bouton describes is the result of extinguished CS holding multiple meanings once the safety memory is acquired. Does it signal danger or safety? We agree with Bouton that the meaning of the CS for any new encounter will depend on the context, and the passage of time, but also on the initial strength of the safety acquisition (which is dependent on the size of the prediction error, and hence the amount of relief; Craske et al., 2014). However, it was not our objective to directly study the relation of relief to subsequent CS value, and our design is not tailored to do so post hoc.

      (5) In Figure 2 A-D, the omission responses are plotted on trials with varying levels of probability. However, it seems to be missing omission responses in 0% trials in these brain regions. As depicted, it is an incomplete view of activity across the different trial types of increasing threat probability.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this unclarity. The betas that are presented in the figures represent the ROI averages from each non-0% vs 0% contrasts (i.e., 25%>0%; 50%>0%; and 75%>0% for the weak, moderate and strong intensity levels). Any positive beta therefore indicates a stronger activation in the given region compared to a fully predicted omission. Any negative beta indicates a weaker activation.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We have adapted the figure captions of figures 2 and 3.

      “The extracted beta-estimates in figures A-D represent the ROI averages from each non0% > 0% contrast (i.e., 25%>0%; 50%>0%; and 75%>0% for the weak, moderate and strong intensity levels). Any positive beta therefore indicates a stronger activation in the given region compared to a fully predicted omission. Any negative beta indicates a weaker activation.”

      (6) If I understand Figure 2 panels E-H, these are plotting responses to the shock versus no-shock (when no-shock was expected). It is unclear why this would be especially informative, as it would just be showing activity associated with shocks versus no-shocks. If the goal was to use this as a way to compare positive and negative prediction errors, the shock would induce widespread activity that is not necessarily reflective of a prediction error. It is simply a response to a shock. Comparing activity to shocks delivered after varying levels of probability (e.g., a shock delivered at 25% expectancy, versus 75%, versus 100%) would seem to be a much better test of a prediction error signal than shock versus no-shock.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. The purpose of this preregistered contrast was to test whether fully predicted outcomes elicited equivalent activations in our ROIs (corresponding to the third prediction error axiom). Specifically, if a region represents a pure prediction error signal, the 100% (fully predicted shocks) > 0% (fully predicted shock omissions) contrast should be nonsignificant, and follow-up Bayes Factors would further provide evidence in favor of this null-hypothesis.

      We agree with the reviewer that the delivery of the stimulation triggers widespread activations in our regions of interest that confounded this contrast. However, given that it was a preregistered test for the prediction error axioms, we cannot remove it from the manuscript. Instead, we have argued in the discussion that future studies who want to take an axiomatic stance should consider alternative tests to examine this axiom.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We adapted lines 358-364.

      “Thus, given that we could not control for the delivery of the stimulation in the 100% > 0% contrast (the delivery of the stimulation completely overlapped with the contrast of interest), it is impossible to disentangle responses to the salience of the stimulation from those to the predictability of the outcome. A fairer evaluation of the third axiom would require outcomes that are roughly similar in terms of salience. When evaluating threat omission PE, this implies comparing fully expected threat omissions following 0% instructions to fully expected absence of stimulation at another point in the task (e.g. during a safe intertrial interval).”

      Also note that our task did not lend itself for an in-depth analysis of aversive (worse-thanexpected) prediction error signals, given that there was only one stimulation trial for each probability x intensity level (see Supplemental Figure 1). The most informative contrast that can inform us about aversive prediction error signals contrasts all non-100% stimulation trials with all 100% stimulation trials. The results of this contrast are presented in Supplemental Figure 16 and Supplemental Table 11 for completeness.

      (7) I was unclear what the results in Figure 3 E-H were showing that was unique from panels A-D, or where it was described. The images looked redundant from the images in A-D. I see that they come from different contrasts (non0% > 0%; 100% > 0%), but I was unclear why that was included.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Our answer is related to that of the previous comment. Figure 3 presents the results of the axiomatic tests within the secondary ROIs we extracted from a wider secondary mask based on the non0%>0% contrast.

      (8) As mentioned earlier, there is a tendency to imply that subjects felt relief because there was activity in "the reward pathway ."

      We thank the reviewer for their comment, but we respectfully disagree. Subjective relief was explicitly probed when the instructed stimulations stayed away. In the manuscript we only talk about “relief” when discussing these subjective reports. We found that participants reported higher levels of relief-pleasantness following omissions of stronger and more probable threat. This was an observation that matches our predictions and replicates our previous behavioral study (Willems & Vervliet, 2021).

      The fMRI evidence is treated separately from the “pleasantness” of the relief. Specifically, we refrain from calling the threat omission-related neural responses “relief-activity” as this would indeed imply that the activation would only be attributed to this psychological function. Instead, we talked about omission-related activity, and we assessed whether it complied to the prediction error criteria as specified by the axiomatic approach.

      Only afterwards, because we hypothesized that omission-related fMRI activation and selfreported relief-pleasantness were related, and because we found a similar response pattern for both measures, we examined how relief and omission-related fMRI activations within our ROIs were related on a trial-by-trial basis. To this end, we entered relief-pleasantness ratings as a parametric modulator to the omission regressor.

      By no means do we want to reduce an emotional experience (relief) to fMRI activations in isolated regions in the brain. We agree with the reviewer that this would be far too reductionist. We therefore also ran a pre-registered LASSO-PCR analysis in order to identify whether a whole-brain pattern of activations can predict subjective relief (independent from the exact instructions we gave, and independent of our a priori ROIs). This analysis used trialby-trial patterns of activation across all voxels in the brain as the predictor and self-reported relief as the outcome variable. It is therefore completely data-driven and can be seen as a preregistered exploratory analysis that is intended to inform future studies.

      (9) From the methods, it wasn't entirely clear where there is jitter in the course of a trial. This centers on the question of possible collinearity in the task design between the cue and the outcome. The authors note there is "no multicollinearity between anticipation and omission regressors in the firstlevel GLMs," but how was this quantified? b The issue is of course that the activity coded as omission may be from the anticipation of the expected outcome.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this unclarity. Jitter was introduced in all parts of the trial: i.e., the duration of the inter-trial interval (4-7s), countdown clock (3-7s), and omission window (4-8s) were all jittered (see fig. 1A and methods section, lines 499-507). We added an additional line to the method section.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We added an additional line of to the methods section to further clarify the jittering (lines 498-500).

      “The scale remained on the screen for 8 seconds or until the participant responded, followed by an intertrial interval between 4 and 7 seconds during which only a fixation cross was shown. Note that all phases in the trial were jittered (i.e., duration countdown clock, duration outcome window, duration intertrial interval).”

      Multicollinearity between the omission and anticipation regressors was assessed by calculating the variance inflation factor (VIF) of omission and anticipation regressors in the first level GLM models that were used for the parametric modulation analyses.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We replaced the VIF abbreviation with “variance inflation factor” (line 423-424).

      “Nevertheless, there was no multicollinearity between anticipation and omission regressors in the first-level GLMs (VIFs Variance Inflation Factor, VIF < 4), making it unlikely that the omission responses purely represented anticipation.”

      (10) I did not fully understand what the LASSO-PCR model using relief ratings added. This result was not discussed in much depth, and seems to show a host of clusters throughout the brain contributing positively or negatively to the model. Altogether, I would recommend highlighting what this analysis is uniquely contributing to the interpretation of the findings.

      The main added value of this analyses is that it uses a different approach altogether. Where the (mass univariate) parametric modulation analysis estimated in each voxel (and each ROI) whether the activity in this voxel/ROI covaried with the reported relief, a significant activation only indicated that this voxel was related to relief. However, given that each voxel/ROI is treated independently in this analysis, it remains unclear how the activations were embedded in a wider network across the brain, and which regions contributed most to the prediction of relief. The multivariate LASSO-PCR analysis approach we took attempts to overcome this limitation by examining if a more whole-brain pattern can predict relief. Because we use the whole-brain pattern (and not only our a priori ROIs), this analysis is completely data-driven and is intended to inform future studies. In addition, the LASSO-PCR model was cross-validated using five-fold cross-validation, which is also a difference (and a strength) compared to the mass univariate GLM approach.

      One interesting finding that only became evident when we combined univariate and multivariate approaches is that despite that the parametric modulation analysis showed that omission-related fMRI responses in the ROIs were modulated by the reported relief, none of these ROIs contributed significantly to the prediction of relief based on the identified signature. Instead, some of the contributing clusters fell within other valuation and errorprocessing regions (e.g. lateral OFC, mid cingulate, caudate nucleus). This suggests that other regions than our a priori ROIs may have been especially important for the subjective experience of relief, at least in this task. However, all these clusters were small and require further validation in out of sample participants. More research is necessary to test the generalizability and validity of the relief signature to new individuals and tasks, and to compare the signature with other existing signature models (e.g., signature of pain, fear, reward, pleasure). However, this was beyond the scope of the present study.

      Adaptations in the revised manuscript: We altered the explanation of the LASSO-PCR approach in the results section (lines 286-295) and the discussion (lines 399-402)

      Adaptations in the Results section: “The (mass univariate) parametric modulation analysis showed that omission-related fMRI activity in our primary and secondary ROIs correlated with the pleasantness of the relief. However, given that each voxel/ROI is treated independently in this analysis, it remains unclear how the activations were embedded in a wider network of activation across the brain, and which regions contributed most to the prediction of relief. To overcome these limitations, we trained a (multivariate) LASSO-PCR model (Least Absolute Shrinkage and Selection Operator-Regularized Principle Component Regression) in order to identify whether a spatially distributed pattern of brain responses can predict the perceived pleasantness of the relief (or “neural signature” of relief)31. Because we used the whole-brain pattern (and not only our a priori ROIs), this analysis is completely data driven and can thus identify which clusters contribute most to the relief prediction.”

      Adaptations in the Discussion section: “In addition to examining the PE-properties of neural omission responses in our a priori ROIs, we trained a LASSO-PCR model to establish a signature pattern of relief. One interesting finding that only became evident when we compared the univariate and multivariate approach was that none of our a priori ROIs appeared to be an important contributor to the multivariate neural signature, even though all of them (except NAc) were significantly modulated by relief in the univariate analysis.”

      In addition to the public peer review, the reviewers provided some recommendation on how to further improve our manuscript. We will reply to the recommendations below.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Given that you do have trial-level estimates from the classifier analysis, it would be very informative to use learning models and examine responses trial-by-trial to test whether there are prediction errors that vary over time as a function of learning.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. However, based on the results of the run-regressor, we do not anticipate large learning effects in our paradigm. As we mentioned in our responses above, we controlled for time-related drops in omission-responding by including a “run” regressor in our analyses. Results of this regressor for subjective relief and omission-related SCR showed that although there was a general drop in reported relief pleasantness and omission SCR over time, the effects of probability and intensity remained present until the last run. This suggests that even though some learning might have taken place, its effect was likely small and did not abolish our manipulations of probability and intensity. In any case, we cannot use the LASSO-PCR signature model to investigate learning, as this model uses the trial-level brain pattern at the time of US omission to estimate the associated level of relief. These estimates can therefore not be used to examine learning effects.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The LASSO-PCR model feels rather disconnected from the rest of the paper and does not add much to the main theme. I would suggest to remove this part from the paper.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. However, the LASSO-PCR analysis was a preregistered. We therefore cannot remove it from the manuscript. We hope to have clarified its added value in the revised version of the manuscript.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review)

      Weaknesses

      1) The usage of young growing mice (8-10 weeks) versus adult mice (>4 months) in the murine mechanical overload experiments. The usage of adult mice would be preferable for these experiments given that maturational growth may somehow affect the outcomes.

      The basis for this critique is not clear as it has been shown that the longitudinal growth of bones is complete by ⁓8 weeks of age (e.g., PMID: 28326349, and 31997656). These studies, along with others, also indicate that 8 weeks is a post-pubescent age in mice. For these reasons, 8 weeks of age was viewed as being representative of the human equivalent of when people start to perform resistance exercise with the goal of increasing muscle mass. Also, it’s important to consider that the mice were 10-12 weeks of age when the muscles were collected which would be equivalent to a human in their lower 20’s. In our human study, the mean age of the subjects was 23. Given the above points, it’s hard for us to appreciate why the use of mice that started at 8-10 weeks of age is viewed as a weakness. With that being said, we recognize that there may be age-related changes in mechanisms of mechanical load-induced growth, but it was not our intent to address this topic.

      1b) No consideration for biological sex.

      We appreciate this point and we agree that sex is an important variable to consider. In this study, we explored an unchartered topic and therefore we wanted to minimize as many known variables as possible. We did that, in part, by focusing specifically on male subjects. In the future, it will certainly be important to explore whether sex (and age) impact the structural adaptations that drive the mechanical load-induced growth of muscle fibers.

      2) Information on whether myofibrillogenesis is dependent on hypertrophy induced by loading, or just hypertrophy in general. To provide information on this, the authors could use, for instance, inducible Myostatin KO mice (a model where hypertrophy and force production are not always in lockstep) to see whether hypertrophy independent from load induces the same result as muscle loading regarding myofibrillogenesis.

      This is a great suggestion, but it goes beyond the intended scope of our study. Nevertheless, with the publication of our FIM-ID methodology, the answer to this and related questions can now be obtained in a time- and cost-effective manner.

      3) Limited information on Type 1 fiber hypertrophy. A "dual overload" model is used for the mouse where the soleus is also overloaded, but presumably, the soleus was too damaged to analyze. Exploring hypertrophy of murine Type 1 fibers using a different model (weight pulling, weighted wheel running, or forced treadmill running) would be a welcome addition.

      The point is well taken and further studies that are aimed at determining whether there are differences in how Type I vs. Type II fibers grow would be an excellent subject for future studies.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review)

      1) Supplemental Figure 1 is not very clear.

      Supplemental Figure 1 is now presented as Supplemental Figure 2. We carefully reexamined this figure and, in our opinion, the key points have been appropriately conveyed. We would be more than happy to revise the figure, but we would need guidance with respect to which aspect(s) of the figure were not clear to the reviewer.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      Introduction.

      1) I do not think the first paragraph is really necessary. Cell growth is a fundamental property of cell biology that requires no further justification.

      We believe that it is essential to remind all readers about the importance of skeletal muscle research. For some, the detrimental impact of skeletal muscle loss on one’s quality of life and the greater burden on the healthcare system may not be known.

      2) I prefer "fundamental" over "foundationally".

      All mentions of the word “foundational” and “foundationally” have been changed to “fundamental” and “fundamentally.”

      3) As usual for the Hornberger lab, the authors do an excellent job of providing the (historical) context of the research question.

      Thank you for this positive comment.

      4) I prefer “Goldspink” as “Dr. Goldspink” feels too personal especially when you are critical of his studies.

      All instances of “Dr.” have been removed when referring to the works of others. This includes Dr. Goldspink and Dr. Tokuyasu.

      5) Fourth paragraph, after reference #17. I felt like this discussion was not necessary and did not really add any value to the introduction.

      We believe that this discussion should remain since it highlights the widely accepted notion that mechanical loading leads to an increase in the number of myofibrils per fiber, yet there is no compelling data to support this notion. This discussion highlights the need for documented evidence for the increase in myofibril number in response to mechanical loading and, as such, it serves as a major part of the premise for the experiments that were conducted in our manuscript.

      6) The authors do a nice job of laying out the challenge of rigorously testing the Goldspink model of myofiber hypertrophy.

      Thank you!

      Results

      1). For the EM images, can the authors provide a representative image of myofibril tracing? From the EM image provided, it is difficult to evaluate how accurate the tracing is.

      -Representative images and an explanation of myofibril calculation have been provided in Supplemental Figure 5.

      2) In the mouse, how does the mean myofibril CSA compare between EM and FIM-ID?

      Author response image 1.

      The above figures compare the myofibril CSA and fiber CSA measurements that were obtained with EM and FIM-ID for all analyzed fibers, as well as the same fibers separated according to the fiber type (i.e., Ox vs. Gly). The above figure shows that the FIM-ID measurements of myofibril CSA were slightly, yet significantly, lower than the measurements obtained with EM. However, we believe that it would be misleading to present the data in this manner. Specifically, as shown in Fig. 4C, a positive linear relationship exists between myofibril CSA and fiber CSA. Thus, a direct comparison of myofibril CSA measurements obtained from EM and FIM-ID would only be meaningful if the mean CSA of the fibers that were analyzed were the same. As shown on the panel on the right, the mean CSA of the fibers analyzed with FIM-ID was slightly, yet significantly, lower than the mean CSA of the fibers analyzed with EM. As such, we believe that the most appropriate way to compare the measurements of the two methods is to express the values for the myofibril CSA relative to the fiber CSA and this is how we presented the data in the main figure (i.e., Fig. 4E).

      3) Looking at Fig. 3D, how is intermyofibrillar space calculated when a significant proportion of the ROI is odd-shaped myofibrils that are not outlined? It is not clear how the intermyofibrillar space between the odd-shaped myofibrils is included in the total intermyofibrillar space calculation for the fiber.

      The area occupied by the intermyofibrillar components is calculated by using our custom “Intermyofibrillar Area” pipeline within CellProfiler. Briefly, the program creates a binary image of the SERCA signal. The area occupied by the white pixels in the binary image is then used to calculate the area that is occupied by the intermyofibrillar components. To help readers, an example of this process is now provided in supplemental figure 4.

      4) What is the average percentage of each ROI that was not counted by CP (because a myofibril did not fit the shape criteria)? The concern is that the method of collection is biasing the data. In looking at EM images of myofibrils (from other studies), it is apparent that myofibrils are not always oval; in fact, it appears that often myofibrils have a more rectangular shape. These odd-shaped myofibrils are excluded from the analysis yet they might provide important information; maybe these odd-shaped myofibrils always hypertrophy such that their inclusion might change the overall conclusion of the study. I completely understand the challenges of trying to quantify odd-shaped myofibrils. I think it is important the authors discuss this important limitation of the study.

      First, we would like to clarify that myofibrils of a generally rectangular shape were not excluded. The intent of the filtering steps was to exclude objects that exhibited odd shapes because of an incomplete closure of the signal from SERCA. To illustrate this point we have annotated the images from Figure 3B-D with a red arrow which points to a rectangular object and blue arrows which point to objects that most likely consisted of two or more individual myofibrils that were falsely identified as a single object.

      Author response image 2.

      We appreciate the reviewer's concern that differences in the exclusion rates between groups could have biased the outcomes. Indeed, this was something that we were keeping a careful eye on during our analyses, and we hope that the reviewer will take comfort in knowing that objects were excluded at a very similar rate in both the mouse and human samples (44% vs. 46% for SHAM vs. MOV in mice, and 47% vs. 47% for PRE vs. POST in humans). We realize that this important data should have been included in our original submission and it is now contained with the results section of the revised version of our manuscript. Hopefully the explanation above, along with the inclusion of this data, will alleviate the reviewers concerns that differences between the groups may have been biased by the filtering steps.

      Discussion.

      1) I think the authors provided a balanced interpretation of the data by acknowledging the limitation of having only one time-point. i.e., not being able to assess the myofibril splitting mechanism.

      Thank you!

      2) I think a discussion on the important limitation of only quantifying oval-shaped myofibrils should be included in the discussion.

      Please refer to our response to comment #4 of the results section.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      Overall, this is a thoughtful, clear, and impactful manuscript that provides valuable tools and information for the skeletal muscle field. My specific comments are as follows:

      1) In the introduction, I really appreciate the historical aspect provided on myofbrillogenesis. As written, however, I was expecting the authors to tackle the myofibril "splitting" question in greater detail with their experiments given the amount of real estate given to that topic, but this was not the case. Consider toning this down a bit as I think it sets a false expectation.

      We acknowledge that the study does not directly address the question about myofibril splitting. However, we believe that it is important to highlight the background of this untested theory since it serves as a major part of the premise for the experiments that were performed.

      2) In the introduction, is it worth worth citing this study? https://rupress.org/jcb/articlepdf/111/5/1885/1464125/1885.pdf.

      This is a very interesting study but, despite the title, we do not believe that it is accurate to say that this study investigated myofibrillogenesis. Instead (as illustrated by the author in Fig. 9) the study focused on the in-series addition of new sarcomeres at the ends of the pre-existing myofibrils (i.e., it studied in-series sarcomerogenesis). In our opinion, the study does not provide any direct evidence of myofibrillogenesis, and we are not aware of any studies that have shown that the chronic stretch model employed by the authors induces myofibrillogenesis. However, numerous studies have shown that chronic stretch leads to the in-series addition of new sarcomeres.

      3) Is there evidence for myofbrillogenesis during cardiac hypertrophy that could be referenced here?

      This is a great question, and one would think that it would have been widely investigated. However, direct evidence for myofibrillogenesis during load-induced cardiac hypertrophy is just as sparse as the evidence for myofibrillogenesis during load-induced skeletal muscle hypertrophy.

      4) In the introduction, perhaps mention that prolonged fixation is another disadvantage of EM tissue preparation. This typically prevents the usage of antibodies afterwards, whereas the authors have been able to overcome this using their method, which is a great strength.

      Thank you for the suggestion. This point has been added the 5th paragraph of the introduction.

      5) In the introduction, are there not EM-compatible computer programs that could sidestep the manual tracing and increase throughput? Why could software such as this not be used? https://www.nature.com/articles/s41592-019-0396-9

      While we agree that automated pipelines have been developed for EM, such methods require a high degree of contrast between the measured objects. With EM, the high degree of contrast required for automated quantification is rarely observed between the myofibrils and the intermyofibrillar components (especially in glycolytic fibers). Moreover, one of the primary goals of our study was to develop a time and cost-effective method for identifying and quantifying myofibrils. As such, we developed a method that would not require the use of EM. We only incorporated EM imaging and analysis to validate the FIM-ID method. Therefore, utilizing an EM-compatible program to sidestep the manual tracing would have sped up the validation step, but it would not have accomplished one of the primary goals of our study.

      6) In the results, specifically for the human specimens, were "hybrid" fibers detected and, if so, how did the pattern of SERCA look? Also, did the authors happen to notice centrallynucleated muscle fibers in the murine plantaris after overload? If so, how did the myofibrils look? Could be interesting.

      For the analysis of the human fibers, two distinct immunolabeling methods were performed. One set of sections was stained for SERCA1 and dystrophin, while the other set was stained for SERCA2 and dystrophin. In other words, we did not perform dual immunolabeling for SERCA1 and SERCA2 on the same sections. Therefore, during the analysis of the human fibers, we did not detect the presence of hybrid fibers. Furthermore, while we did not perform nuclear staining on these sections, it should be noted that nuclei do not contain SERCA, and to the best of our recollection, we did not detect any SERCAnull objects within the center of the fibers. Moreover, our previous work has shown that the model of MOV used in this study does not lead to signs of degeneration/regeneration (You, Jae-Sung et al. (2019). doi:10.1096/fj.201801653RR). Therefore, it can be safely assumed that very few (if any) of the fibers analyzed in this study were centrally nucleated.

      7) In the Results, fixed for how long? This is important since, at least in my experience, with 24+ hours of fixation, antibody reactivity is significantly reduced unless an antigen retrieval step is performed (even then, not always successful). Also, presumably these tissues were drop-fixed? These details are in the Methods but some additional detail here could be warranted for the benefit of the discerning and interested reader.

      For both the mouse and human, the samples were immersion-fixed (presumably the equivalent of “drop-fixed”) in 4% paraformaldehyde in 0.1M phosphate buffer solution for a total of 24 hours (as described in the Methods section). We agree that prolonged aldehyde fixation can affect antibody reactivity; however, the antibodies used for FIM-ID did not require an antigen retrieval step.

      8) In the results regarding NADH/FAD autofluorescence imaging, a complimentary approach in muscle was recently described and could be cited here: https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00662.2022

      We appreciate the reviewer’s recommendation to add this citation for the support of our method for fiber type classification and have added it to the manuscript in the second paragraph under the “Further refinement and validation of the automated measurements with FIM-ID” subsection of the Results as citation number 57.

      9) In the results, "Moreover, no significant differences in the mean number of myofibrils per fiber CSA were found when the results from the FIM-ID and EM-based measurements were directly compared, and this point was true when the data from all analyzed fibers was considered..." Nit-picky, but should it be "were considered" since data is plural?

      Thanks, this error was corrected.

      10) In the discussion, are the authors developing a "methodology" or a "method"? I think it may be the latter.

      We agree that “method” is the correct term to use. Instances of the word “methodology” have been replaced with “method.”

      11) In the discussion, since the same fibers were not being tracked over time, I'm not sure that saying "radial growth" is strictly correct. It is intuitive that the fibers were growing during loading, of course, but it may be safer to say "larger fibers versus control or the Pre sample" or something of the like. For example, "all the fiber types that were larger after loading versus controls" as opposed to "showed significant radial growth"

      While we agree that the fiber size was not tracked over time, the experiments were designed to test for a main effect of mechanical loading. Therefore, we are attributing the morphological adaptations to the mechanical loading variable (i.e., mechanical loadinduced growth). The use of terms like “the induction of radial growth” or “the induction of hypertrophy” are commonly used in studies with the methods employed in this study. Respectfully, we believe that it would be more confusing for the readers if we used the suggested terms like "all the fiber types that were larger after loading versus controls". For instance, if I were the reader I would think to myself… but there fiber types that were larger than others before loading (e.g., Ox vs. Gly), so what are the authors really trying to talk about?

      12) I would suggest making a cartoon summary figure to complement and summarize the Methods/Results/Discussion

      Thank you for this suggestion. We created a cartoon that summarizes the overall workflow for FIM-ID and this cartoon is now presented in Supplemental Figure 1.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors make a compelling case for the biological need to exquisitely control RecB levels, which they suggest is achieved by the pathway they have uncovered and described in this work. However, this conclusion is largely inferred as the authors only investigate the effect on cell survival in response to (high levels of) DNA damage and in response to two perturbations - genetic knock-out or over-expression, both of which are likely more dramatic than the range of expression levels observed in unstimulated and DNA damage conditions.

      In the discussion of the updated version of the manuscript, we have clarified the limits of our interpretation of the role of the uncovered regulation.

      Lines 411-417: “It is worth noting that the observed decrease in cell viability upon DNA damage was detected for relatively drastic perturbations such as recB deletion and RecBCD overexpression. Verifying these observations in the context of more subtle changes in RecB levels would be important for further investigation of the biological role of the uncovered regulation mechanism. However, the extremely low numbers of RecB proteins make altering its abundance in a refined, controlled, and homogeneous across cells manner extremely challenging and would require the development of novel synthetic biology tools.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The major weaknesses include a lack of mechanistic depth, and part of the conclusions are not fully supported by the data.

      (1) Mechanistically, it is still unclear why upon DNA damage, translation level of recB mRNA increases, which makes the story less complete. The authors mention in the Discussion that a moderate (30%) decrease in Hfq protein was observed in previous study, which may explain the loss of translation repression on recB. However, given that this mRNA exists in very low copy number (a few per cell) and that Hfq copy number is on the order of a few hundred to a few thousand, it's unclear how 30% decrease in the protein level should resides a significant change in its regulation of recB mRNA.

      We agree that the entire mechanistic pathway controlling recB expression may be not limited to just Hfq involvement. We have performed additional experiments, proposed by the reviewer, suggesting that a small RNA might be involved (see below, response to comments 3&4). However, we consider that the full characterisation of all players is beyond the scope of this manuscript. In addition to describing the new data (see below), we expanded the discussion to explain more precisely why changes in Hfq abundance upon DNA damage may impact RecB translation. 

      Lines 384-391: “A modest decrease (~30%) in Hfq protein abundance has been seen in a proteomic study in E. coli upon DSB induction with ciprofloxacin (DOI: 10.1016/j.jprot.2018.03.002). While Hfq is a highly abundant protein, it has many mRNA and sRNA targets, some of which are also present in large amounts (DOI: 10.1046/j.1365-2958.2003.03734.x). As recently shown, the competition among the targets over Hfq proteins results in unequal (across various targets) outcomes, where the targets with higher Hfq binding affinity have an advantage over the ones with less efficient binding (DOI: 10.1016/j.celrep.2020.02.016). In line with these findings, it is conceivable that even modest changes in Hfq availability could result in significant changes in gene expression, and this could explain the increased translational efficiency of RecB under DNA damage conditions. “

      (2) Based on the experiment and the model, Hfq regulates translation of recB gene through binding to the RBS of the upstream ptrA gene through translation coupling. In this case, one would expect that the behavior of ptrA gene expression and its response to Hfq regulation would be quite similar to recB. Performing the same measurement on ptrA gene expression in the presence and absence of Hfq would strengthen the conclusion and model.

      Indeed, based on our model, we expect PtrA expression to be regulated by Hfq in a similar manner to RecB. However, the product encoded by the ptrA gene, Protease III, (i) has been poorly characterised; (ii) unlike RecB, is located in the periplasm (DOI: 10.1128/jb.149.3.1027-1033.1982); and (iii) is not involved in any DNA repair pathway. Therefore, analysing PtrA expression would take us away from the key questions of our study.

      (3) The authors agree that they cannot exclude the possibility of sRNA being involved in the translation regulation. However, this can be tested by performing the imaging experiments in the presence of Hfq proximal face mutations, which largely disrupt binding of sRNAs.

      (4) The data on construct with a long region of Hfq binding site on recB mRNA deleted is less convincing. There is no control to show that removing this sequence region itself has no effect on translation, and the effect is solely due to the lack of Hfq binding. A better experiment would be using a Hfq distal face mutant that is deficient in binding to the ARN motifs.

      We performed the requested experiments. We included this data in the manuscript in the supplementary figure (Figure S11), and our interpretation in the discussion.

      Lines 354-378: “While a few recent studies have shown evidence for direct gene regulation by Hfq in a sRNA-independent manner (DOI: 10.1101/gad.302547.117; DOI: 10.1111/mmi.14799; DOI: 10.1371/journal.pgen.1004440; DOI: 10.1111/mmi.12961; DOI: 10.1038/emboj.2013.205), we attempted to investigate whether a small RNA could be involved in the Hfq-mediated regulation of RecB expression. We tested Hfq mutants containing point mutations in the proximal and distal sides of the protein, which were shown to disrupt either binding with sRNAs or with ARN motifs of mRNA targets, respectively [DOI: 10.1016/j.jmb.2013.01.006, DOI: 10.3389/fcimb.2023.1282258]. Hfq mutated in either proximal (K56A) or distal (Y25D) faces were expressed from a plasmid in a ∆hfq background. In both cases, Hfq expression was confirmed with qPCR and did not affect recB mRNA levels (Supplementary Figure S11b). When the proximal Hfq binding side (K56A) was disrupted, RecB protein concentration was nearly similar to that obtained in a ∆hfq mutant (Supplementary Figure S11a, top panel). This observation suggests that the repression of RecB translation requires the proximal side of Hfq, and that a small RNA is likely to be involved as small RNAs (Class I and Class II) were shown to predominantly interact with the proximal face of Hfq [DOI: 10.15252/embj.201591569]. When we expressed Hfq mutated in the distal face (Y25D) which is deficient in binding to mRNAs, less efficient repression of RecB translation was detected (Supplementary Figure S11a, bottom panel). This suggests that RecB mRNA interacts with Hfq at this position. We did not observe full de-repression to the ∆hfq level, which might be explained by residual capacity of Hfq to bind its recB mRNA target in the point mutant (Y25D) (either via the distal face with less affinity or via the lateral rim Hfq interface).”

      Taken together, these results suggest that Hfq binds to recB mRNA and that a small RNA might contribute to the regulation although this sRNA has not been identified.

      (5) Ln 249-251: The authors claim that the stability of recB mRNA is not changed in ∆hfq simply based on the steady-state mRNA level. To claim so, the lifetime needs to be measured in the absence of Hfq.

      We measured recB lifetime in the absence of Hfq in a time-course experiment where transcription initiation was inhibited with rifampicin and mRNA abundance was quantified with RT-qPCR. The results confirmed that recB mRNA lifetime in hfq mutants is similar to the one in the wild type (Figure S7d, referred to the line 263 of the manuscript).

      (6) What's the labeling efficiency of Halo-tag? If not 100% labeled, is it considered in the protein number quantification? Is the protein copy number quantification through imaging calibrated by an independent method? Does Halo tag affect the protein translation or degradation?

      Our previous study (DOI: 10.1038/s41598-019-44278-0) described a detailed characterization of the HaloTag labelling technique for quantifying low-copy proteins in single E. coli cells using RecB as a test case. 

      In that study, we showed complete quantitative agreement of RecB quantification between two fully independent methods: HaloTag-based labelling with cell fixation and RecB-sfGFP combined with a microfluidic device that lowers protein diffusion in the bacterial cytoplasm. This second method had previously been validated for protein quantification (DOI: 10.1038/ncomms11641) and provides detection of 80-90% of the labelled protein. Additionally, in our protocol, immediate chemical fixation of cells after the labelling and quick washing steps ensure that new, unlabelled RecB proteins are not produced. We, therefore, conclude that our approach to RecB detection is highly reliable and sufficient for comparing RecB production in different conditions and mutants.

      The RecB-HaloTag construct has been designed for minimal impact on RecB production and function. The HaloTag is translationally fused to RecB in a loop positioned after the serine present at position 47 where it is unlikely to interfere with (i) the formation of RecBCD complex (based on RecBCD structure, DOI: 10.1038/nature02988), (ii) the initiation of translation (as it is far away from the 5’UTR and the beginning of the open reading frame) and (iii) conventional C-terminalassociated mechanisms of protein degradation (DOI: 10.15252/msb.20199208). In our manuscript, we showed that the RecB-HaloTag degradation rate is similar to the dilution rate due to bacterial growth. This is in line with a recent study on unlabelled proteins, which shows that RecB’s lifetime is set by the cellular growth rate (DOI: 10.1101/2022.08.01.502339).

      Furthermore, we have demonstrated (DOI: 10.1038/s41598-019-44278-0) that (i) bacterial growth is not affected by replacing the native RecB with RecB-HaloTag, (ii) RecB-HaloTag is fully functional upon DNA damage, and (iii) no proteolytic processing of the RecB-HaloTag is detected by Western blot. 

      These results suggest that RecB expression and functionality are unlikely to be affected by the translational HaloTag insertion at Ser-47 in RecB.

      In the revised version of the manuscript, we have added information about the construct and discuss the reliability of the quantification.

      Lines 141-152: “To determine whether the mRNA fluctuations we observed are transmitted to the protein level, we quantified RecB protein abundance with singlemolecule accuracy in fixed individual cells using the Halo self-labelling tag (Fig. 2A&B).

      The HaloTag is translationally fused to RecB in a loop after Ser47(DOI: 10.1038/s41598-019-44278-0) where it is unlikely to interfere with the formation of RecBCD complex (DOI: 10.1038/nature02988), the initiation of translation and conventional C-terminal-associated mechanisms of protein degradation (DOI: 10.15252/msb.20199208). Consistent with minimal impact on RecB production and function, bacterial growth was not affected by replacing the native RecB with RecBHaloTag, the fusion was fully functional upon DNA damage and no proteolytic processing of the construct was detected (DOI: 10.1038/s41598-019-44278-0). To ensure reliable quantification in bacteria with HaloTag labelling, the technique was previously verified with an independent imaging method and resulted in > 80% labelling efficiency (DOI: 10.1038/s41598-019-44278-0, DOI: 10.1038/ncomms11641). In order to minimize the number of newly produced unlabelled RecB proteins, labelling and quick washing steps were followed by immediate chemical fixation of cells.”

      Lines 164-168: “Comparison to the population growth rate [in these conditions (0.017 1/min)] suggests that RecB protein is stable and effectively removed only as a result of dilution and molecule partitioning between daughter cells. This result is consistent with a recent high-throughput study on protein turnover rates in E. coli, where the lifetime of RecB proteins was shown to be set by the doubling time (DOI: 10.1038/s41467-024-49920-8).”

      (7) Upper panel of Fig S8a is redundant as in Fig 5B. Seems that Fig S8d is not described in the text.

      We have now stated in the legend of Fig S8a that the data in the upper panel were taken from Fig 5B to visually facilitate the comparison with the results given in the lower panel. We also noticed that we did not specify that in the upper panel in Fig S9a (the data in the upper panel of Fig S9a was taken from Fig 5C for the same reason). We added this clarification to the legend of the Fig S9 as well.

      We referred to the Fig S8d in the main text. 

      Lines 283-284: “We confirmed the functionality of the Hfq protein expressed from the pQE-Hfq plasmid in our experimental conditions (Fig. S8d).”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Experimental regime to measure protein and mRNA levels.

      (a) Authors expose cells to ciprofloxacin for 2 hrs. They provide a justification via a mathematical model. However, in the absence of a measurement of protein and mRNA across time, it is unclear whether this single time point is sufficient to make the conclusion on RecB induction under double-strand break.

      In our experiments, we only aimed to compare recB mRNA and RecB protein levels in two steady-state conditions: no DNA damage and DNA damage caused by sublethal levels of ciprofloxacin. We did not aim to look at RecB dynamic regulation from nondamaged to damaged conditions – this would indeed require additional measurements at different time points. We revised this part of the results to ensure that our conclusions are stated as steady-state measurements and not as dynamic changes.

      Line 203-205: “We used mathematical modelling to verify that two hours of antibiotic exposure was sufficient to detect changes in mRNA and protein levels and for RecB mRNA and protein levels to reach a new steady state in the presence of DNA damage.”

      (b) Authors use cell area to account for the elongation under damage conditions. However, it is unclear whether the number of copies of the recB gene are similar across these elongated cells. Hence, authors should report mRNA and protein levels with respect to the number of gene copies of RecB or chromosome number as well.

      Based on the experiments in DNA damaging conditions, our main conclusion is that the average translational efficiency of RecB is increased in perturbed conditions. We believe that this conclusion is well supported by our measurements and that it does not require information about the copy number of the recB gene but only the concentration of mRNA and protein. We did observe lower recB mRNA concentration upon DNA damage in comparison to the untreated conditions, which may be due to a lower concentration of genomic DNA in elongated cells upon DNA damage, as we mention in lines (221-223).

      Our calculation of translation efficiency could be affected by variations of mRNA concentration across cells in the dataset. For example, longer cells that are potentially more affected by DNA damage could have lower concentrations of mRNA. We verified that this is not the case, as recB mRNA concentration is constant across cell size distribution (see the figure below or Figure S5a from Supplementary Information).

      Therefore, we do not think that the measurements of recB gene copy would change our conclusions. We agree that measuring recB gene copies could help to investigate the reason behind the lower recB mRNA concentration under the perturbed conditions as this could be due to lower DNA content or due to shortage of resources (such as RNA polymerases). However, this is a side observation we made rather than a critical result, whose investigation is beyond the scope of this manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      (2) RecB as a proxy for RecBCD. Authors suggest that RecB levels are regulated by hfq. However, how does this regulatory circuit affect the levels of RecC and RecD? Ratio of the three proteins has been shown to be important for the function of the complex.

      A full discussion of RecBCD complex formation regulation would require a complete quantitative model based on precise information on the dynamic of the complex formation, which is currently lacking. 

      We can however offer the following (speculative) suggestions assuming that all three subunits are present in similar abundance in native conditions (DOI: 10.1038/s41598019-44278-0 for RecB and RecC). As the complex is formed in 1:1:1 ratio (DOI: 10.1038/nature02988), we propose that the regulation mechanism of RecB expression affects complex formation in the following way. If the RecB abundance becomes lower than the level of RecC and RecD subunits, the complex formation would be limited by the number of available RecB subunits and hence the number of functional RecBCDs will be decreased. On the contrary, if the number of RecB is higher than the baseline, then, especially in the context of low numbers, we would expect that the probability of forming a complex RecBC (and then RecBCD) will be increased. Based on this simple explanation, we might speculate that regulation of RecB expression may be sufficient to regulate RecB levels and RecBCD complex formation. However, we feel that this argument is too speculative to be added to the manuscript. 

      (3) Role of Hfq in RecB regulation. While authors show the role of hfq in recB translation regulation in non-damage conditions, it is unclear as to how this regulation occurs under damage conditions.

      (a) Have the author carried out recB mRNA and protein measurement in hfqdeleted cells under ciprofloxacin treatment?

      We attempted to perform experiments in hfq mutants under ciprofloxacin treatment. However, the cells exhibited a very strong and pleiotropic phenotype: they had large size variability and shape changes and were also frequently lysing. Therefore, we did not proceed with mRNA and protein quantification because the data would not have been reliable. 

      (b) How do the authors propose that Hfq regulation is alleviated under conditions of DNA damage, when RecB translation efficiency increases?

      We propose that Hfq could be involved in a more global response to DNA damage as follows. 

      Based on a proteomic study where Hfq protein abundance has been found to decrease (~ 30%) upon DSB induction with ciprofloxacin (DOI: 10.1016/j.jprot.2018.03.002), we suggest that this could explain the increased translational efficiency of RecB. While Hfq is a highly abundant protein, it has many targets (mRNA and sRNA), some of which are also highly abundant. Therefore the competition among the targets over Hfq proteins results in unequal (across various targets) outcomes (DOI: 10.1046/j.13652958.2003.03734.x), where the targets with higher Hfq binding affinity have an advantage over the ones with less efficient binding. We reason that upon DNA damage, a moderate decrease in the Hfq protein abundance (30%) can lead to a similar competition among Hfq targets where high-affinity targets outcompete low-affinity ones as well as low-abundant ones (such as recB mRNAs). Thus, the regulation of lowabundant targets of Hfq by moderate perturbations of Hfq protein level is a potential explanation for the change in RecB translation that we have observed. Potential reasons behind the changes of Hfq levels upon DNA damage would be interesting to explore, however this would require a completely different approach and is beyond the scope of this manuscript.

      We have modified the text of the discussion to explain our reasoning:

      Lines 384-391: “A modest decrease (~30%) in Hfq protein abundance has been seen in a proteomic study in E. coli upon DSB induction with ciprofloxacin (DOI: 10.1016/j.jprot.2018.03.002). While Hfq is a highly abundant protein, it has many mRNA and sRNA targets, some of which are also present in large amounts (DOI: 10.1046/j.1365-2958.2003.03734.x). As recently shown, the competition among the targets over Hfq proteins results in unequal (across various targets) outcomes, where the targets with higher Hfq binding affinity have an advantage over the ones with less efficient binding (DOI: 10.1016/j.celrep.2020.02.016). In line with these findings, it is conceivable that even modest changes in Hfq availability could result in significant changes in gene expression, and this could explain the increased translational efficiency of RecB under DNA damage conditions.”

      (c) Is there any growth phenotype associated with recB mutant where hfq binding is disrupted in damage and non-damage conditions? Does this mutation affect cell viability when over-expressed or under conditions of ciprofloxacin exposure?

      We checked the phenotype and did not detect any difference in growth or cell viability affecting the recB-5 UTR* mutants either in normal conditions or upon exposure to ciprofloxacin. However, this is expected because the repair capacity is associated with RecB protein abundance and in this mutant, while translational efficiency of recB mRNA increases, the level of RecB proteins remains similar to the wild-type (Figure 5E).

      Minor points:

      (1) Introduction - authors should also discuss the role of RecFOR at sites of fork stalling, a likely predominant pathway for break generated at such sites.

      The manuscript focuses on the repair of DNA double-strand breaks (DSBs). RecFOR plays a very important role in the repair of stalled forks because of single-strand gaps but is not involved in the repair of DSBs (DOI: 10.1038/35003501). We have modified the beginning of the introduction to mention the role of RecFOR. 

      Lines 35-39: “For instance, replication forks often encounter obstacles leading to fork reversal, accumulation of gaps that are repaired by the RecFOR pathway (DOI: 10.1038/35003501) or breakage which has been shown to result in spontaneous DSBs in 18% of wild-type Escherichia coli cells in each generation (DOI: 10.1371/journal.pgen.1007256), underscoring the crucial need to repair these breaks to ensure faithful DNA replication.”

      (2) Methods: The authors refer to previous papers for the method used for single RNA molecule detection. More information needs to be provided in the present manuscript to explain how single molecule detection was achieved.

      We added additional information in the method section on the fitting procedure allowing quantifying the number of mRNAs per detected focus.

      Lines 515-530: “Based on the peak height and spot intensity, computed from the fitting output, the specific signal was separated from false positive spots (Fig. S1a). To identify the number of co-localized mRNAs, the integrated spot intensity profile was analyzed as previously described (DOI: 10.1038/nprot.2013.066). Assuming that (i) probe hybridization is a probabilistic process, (ii) binding each RNA FISH probe happens independently, and (iii) in the majority of cases, due to low-abundance, there is one mRNA per spot, it is expected that the integrated intensities of FISH probes bound to one mRNA are Gaussian distributed. In the case of two co-localized mRNAs, there are two independent binding processes and, therefore, a wider Gaussian distribution with twice higher mean and twice larger variance is expected. In fact, the integrated spot intensity profile had a main mode corresponding to a single mRNA per focus, and a second one representing a population of spots with two co-localized mRNAs (Fig. S1b). Based on this model, the integrated spot intensity histograms were fitted to the sum of two Gaussian distributions (see equation below where a, b, c, and d are the fitting parameters), corresponding to one and two mRNA molecules per focus. An intensity equivalent corresponding to the integrated intensity of FISH probes in average bound to one mRNA was computed as a result of multiple-Gaussian fitting procedure (Fig. S1b), and all identified spots were normalized by the one-mRNA equivalent.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Overall the work is carefully executed and highly compelling, providing strong support for the conclusions put forth by the authors.

      One point: the potential biological consequences of the post-transcriptional mechanism uncovered in the work would be enhanced if the authors could 1) tune RecB protein levels and 2) directly monitor the role that RecB plays in generating single-standed DNA at DSBs.

      We agree that testing viability of cells in case of tunable changes in RecB levels would be important to further investigate the biological role of the uncovered regulation mechanism. However, this is a very challenging experiment as it is technically difficult to alter the low number of RecB proteins in a controlled and homogeneous across-cell manner, and it would require the development of precisely tunable and very lowabundant synthetic designs. 

      We did monitor real-time RecB dynamics by tracking single molecules in live E. coli cells in a different study (DOI: 10.1101/2023.12.22.573010) that is currently under revision. There, reduced motility of RecB proteins was observed upon DSB induction indicating that RecB is recruited to DNA to start the repair process.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment:

      This manuscript is a valuable study of the responses of GPi neurons to DBS stimulation in human PD and dystonia patients and it finds evidence for altered short-term and long-term plasticity in response to DBS between the two patient populations. This data set is of interest to both basic and clinical researchers working in the field of DBS and movement disorders. While there was enthusiasm for the potential significance of these findings, support for their conclusions was incomplete. Thir data may be indicative of more interesting and complex interpretations than currently considered in the article. 

      The authors would like to express their gratitude to the Editorial Team and Reviewers for their invaluable feedback which helped to improve the manuscript.

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      Sumarac et al investigate differences in globus pallidus internus (GPi) spike activity and short- and long-term plasticity of direct pathway projections in patients with Parkinson's disease (PD) and dystonia. Their main claims are that GPi neurons exhibit distinct characteristics in these two disorders, with PD associated with specific power-frequency oscillations and dystonia showing lower firing rates, increased burstiness, and less regular activity. Additionally, long-term plasticity and synaptic depression appear to differ between the two conditions. The authors suggest that these findings support the concept of hyperfunctional GPi output in PD and hypofunctional output in dystonia, possibly driven by variations in the plasticity of striato-pallidal synapses. Overall enthusiasm is relatively high, but I think the discussion omits discussing findings that don't align well with standard models. 

      Strengths: 

      These types of studies are valuable as the data arise from patients who have dystonia or PD. This could provide unique insights into disease pathophysiology that might not be recapitulated in animal systems work. 

      Thank you for the positive feedback.

      Weaknesses: 

      - The rate model and indirect/direct pathway ideas lack explanatory power; too much of the hypothesis generation and discussion in this manuscript is set in the context of these old ideas. Their data in my view emphasize this somewhat emphatically. Most patients with the 'hypokinetic' movement disorder PD have dystonia as a part of their motor features. Dystonia is a form of excessive muscle activation that on the one hand is 'hyperkinetic' but on the other usually decreases the speed of motor tasks, even in patients with primary dystonia. Similarly, PD patients display a bewildering variety of hyperkinetic manifestations as well (rest tremor, dystonia, dyskinesia). If these are truly independent classifications, i.e. hyper- versus hypo-kinetic, the authors must acknowledge that there is considerable overlap in the spike activity across groups - numerous dystonia patients display higher discharge rates than the majority of the PD sample. Based on the firing rate alone, it would not be possible to distinguish these groups. 

      Thank you for your insightful comments regarding the discussion of the rate model and the distinction between hyperkinetic and hypokinetic movement disorders. We acknowledge that the rate model, primarily derived from limited number of animal subjects [1], may not fully encapsulate the complexities of Parkinson's disease (PD) and dystonia. Our study aimed to validate animal model findings in humans by correlating single-neuron features with disease symptom severity. However, we concur with the Reviewer’s comment regarding the overlapping motor features in hypokinetic and hyperkinetic disorders. We can speculate that the overlap in neuronal properties may be reflected in the overlap of, for example, hyperkinetic features being also present in PD, as suggested by the Reviewer. Per the Reviewer’s request, we have now acknowledged this notion in the manuscript. Interestingly, hypokinetic symptoms have been reported to occur in dystonia in response to GPi-stimulation and have been associated with beta activity in the LFP [2], which reinforces the notion that neural activity may be more related to specific symptoms rather than diseases as a whole. Supplementing our analyses, in addition to total UPDRSIII scores, we have now provided correlations with only hypokinetic (i.e. bradykinesia) subscores of the UPDRSIII to focus on more direct assessment of hypokinetic features in PD versus hyperkinetic features in dystonia. We have updated our methods and results accordingly.

      [1] M. R. DeLong, “Primate models of movement disorders of basal ganglia origin.,” Trends Neurosci, vol. 13, no. 7, pp. 281–285, Jul. 1990, doi: 10.1016/0166-2236(90)90110-v.

      [2] R. Lofredi et al., “Pallidal Beta Activity Is Linked to Stimulation-Induced Slowness in Dystonia,” Movement Disorders, vol. 38, no. 5, pp. 894–899, 2023, doi: 10.1002/mds.29347.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “Indeed, variability in spike firing rates in PD may be reflected in the considerable overlap in spiking activity between PD and dystonia (Fig. 1A), with many dystonia patients exhibiting higher discharge rates compared to PD patients.”

      “Given that UPDRSIII includes both hypokinetic and hyperkinetic symptoms of PD, we further sought to disaggregate the score by only considering items 23-26 in UPDRSIII, which assess hypokinetic symptoms of PD.”

      “… with a marginally stronger correlation for PD hypokinetic symptoms only (items 23-26 of UPDRSIII, Spearman's rho=0.32, p=.0330; Supplementary Fig. 3)”

      Supplementary Fig. 3: We provided correlations with hypokinetic (i.e., bradykinesia) subscore of the UPDRSIII. There is very little difference between correlation results of UPDRSIII total (Fig. 1) and the hypokinetic-only subscore (Supplementary Fig. 3).

      “though our results do not change substantially when only hypokinetic PD features are considered (Supplementary Fig. 3).”

      - If beta power is pathognomonic of parkinsonism, the authors found no differences in beta-related spike discharges across the groups. One would have predicted greater beta power in PD than in primary dystonia. This should be discussed explicitly and an interpretation should be provided. 

      We agree with the reviewer that considering the previous LFP literature, one might have expected a difference in single-neuron oscillation power between PD and dystonia. However, while prior studies [3], [4] have reported significant differences in oscillatory power between the two diseases, researchers examined local field potential (LFP) activity only. Other work [5] in non-human primates investigated single-neuron oscillations and reported no differences between PD and dystonia at the single-neuron level, in line with our findings. However, despite the lack of difference in overall power presented here, we provide evidence that the strength of the beta-frequency single-neuron oscillations nevertheless correlates with symptom severity in PD but not dystonia; whereas the strength of the theta-frequency single-neuron oscillations correlates with symptom severity in dystonia but not PD.

      [3] P. Silberstein et al., “Patterning of globus pallidus local field potentials differs between Parkinson’s disease and dystonia.,” Brain, vol. 126, no. Pt 12, pp. 2597–2608, Dec. 2003, doi: 10.1093/brain/awg267.

      [4] D. D. Wang et al., “Pallidal Deep-Brain Stimulation Disrupts Pallidal Beta Oscillations and Coherence with Primary Motor Cortex in Parkinson’s Disease,” J Neurosci, vol. 38, no. 19, pp. 4556–4568, May 2018, doi: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.0431-18.2018.

      [5] P. A. Starr et al., “Spontaneous pallidal neuronal activity in human dystonia: comparison with Parkinson’s disease and normal macaque.,” J Neurophysiol, vol. 93, no. 6, pp. 3165–3176, Jun. 2005, doi: 10.1152/jn.00971.2004.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “Although previous research has reported differences in the LFP power between PD and dystonia [27,28], a study in non-human primates found no such differences in single-neuron oscillatory strength [8], as reflected in our findings. However, despite a lack of difference in overall power across disorders, we were able to derive disease/frequency-specific relationships with respect to clinical scores (Fig. 1C; oscillatory features).”

      - The study lacks a healthy control group, making it challenging to differentiate disease-specific findings from normal variations in GPi activity and plasticity. Although this is acknowledged in the discussion, this complicates the interpretation of the results. The sample sizes for PD and dystonia patients are relatively small, and the study combines various forms of dystonia, potentially masking subtype-specific differences. A larger and more homogenous sample could enhance the study's reliability.

      Indeed, intraoperative microelectrode recordings cannot be obtained in healthy individuals. We agree with the Reviewer that this limits the interpretation of the data. However, directly comparing clinical correlations with single neuron readouts between two distinct clinical entities may, to some degree, compensate for the lack of healthy control data. This contrast, while not providing a healthy control, is still able to point to disease-specific differences. This approach has previously been used to comparisons at the LFP level [6]. While the sample size is indeed small, it is comparable or even higher to similar studies that have investigated the relation of symptom severity of single neuron readouts [7]. The Reviewer is right in that we do not differentiate between generalized or cervical dystonia. We chose to do so because our subgroup analysis provided in the Supplementary Material did not suggest specific differences; though there is insufficient data from specific dystonia subtypes to make formal statistical comparisons. Indeed, future studies should investigate specific subtypes further.

      [6] R. Lofredi et al., “Pallidal beta bursts in Parkinson’s disease and dystonia,” Movement Disorders, vol. 34, no. 3, pp. 420–424, 2019, doi: 10.1002/mds.27524.

      [7] A. Gulberti et al., “Subthalamic and nigral neurons are differentially modulated during parkinsonian gait,” Brain, p. awad006, Feb. 2023, doi: 10.1093/brain/awad006.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “While we did not observe differences across dystonia subtypes (Supplementary Fig. 1), future studies in larger patient cohorts would are warranted. Finally, as many findings in Fig. 1 do not survive corrections for multiple comparisons, we suggest interpretation of results with caution. Despite this, many of our findings related to neuronal correlates are generally in line with previous literature, especially related to oscillatory correlates of PD and dystonia.”

      - While they mention that data are available on request, sharing data openly would increase transparency and allow for independent validation of the results. It is unclear how sharing deidentified data would compromise patient privacy or present ethical issues of any kind, as claimed by the authors. 

      Much of the data in question were collected under an old Research Ethics Board (REB) protocol which did not address data sharing. However, we have consulted with our REB and gained retroactive permission to post de-identified data which are now available in the Supplementary Material.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “The data that support the findings of this study are available in a public repository (see: https://osf.io/nqzd2/)”

      - They appropriately acknowledge several limitations, such as the inability to use pharmacological interventions and the need for further research in the chronic setting. 

      Thank you for the comment.

      - The manuscript highlights differences in GPi activity and plasticity between PD and dystonia but could provide more context on the clinical implications of these findings, particularly regarding what the implications would be novel paradigms for deep brain stimulation. 

      Thank you for the comment. Our finding that striato-pallidal plasticity decays more slowly in dystonia compared to PD may relate to the slower time course of symptom relief associated with GPi-DBS in dystonia, as presently outlined in the discussion. On the other hand, symptoms are also suppressed for longer after the cessation of stimulation in dystonia compared to PD, which may reflect long-term plastic changes [8], [9]. In the context of clinical DBS, plasticity modulation may be facilitated by intermittent stimulation algorithms that may achieve the necessary plastic network change by applying stimulation for a defined time but could then be switched off for improved energy consumption and perhaps as a means of mitigating side effects. DBS devices with chronic sensing may enable monitoring of evoked potential amplitudes for future adaptive stimulation applications; however, currently available devices are limited by low sampling rates, but future devices may overcome these technical limitations.

      [8] D. Ruge et al., “Deep brain stimulation effects in dystonia: time course of electrophysiological changes in early treatment.,” Mov Disord, vol. 26, no. 10, pp. 1913–1921, Aug. 2011, doi: 10.1002/mds.23731.

      [9] D. Ruge et al., “Shaping reversibility? Long-term deep brain stimulation in dystonia: the relationship between effects on electrophysiology and clinical symptoms.,” Brain, vol. 134, no. Pt 7, pp. 2106–2115, Jul. 2011, doi: 10.1093/brain/awr122.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “While further work is certainly required to better understand disease-related differences in plasticity, our findings may nevertheless motivate the development of periodic intermittent (ON/OFF) DBS strategies which periodically modulate synaptic plasticity for therapeutic benefits which outlast stimulation delivery, as have recently been employed in preclinical work [52,53].”

      - While statistical tests are mentioned, the manuscript could benefit from a more detailed presentation of statistical methods, including correction for multiple comparisons and effect sizes. Did the authors consider different recording sites within each patient as independent observations? I think this is not appropriate if that was the case. 

      Thank you for your constructive feedback. In response to the concerns regarding the statistical methods, we have expanded our analysis to provide a more comprehensive statistical overview. Specifically, we implemented the Bonferroni correction for multiple comparisons across each of the seven tests conducted for the differences in single-neuron features between PD and dystonia. The adjustment revealed that only the burst index and coefficient of variation retain statistical significance after post hoc correction, while the firing rate does not. Results of the Bonferroni corrections are now presented in Supplementary Table 3. Reflecting on the initial comment about firing rates between the two disorders, our updated findings underscore the limitation of using firing rates alone to differentiate between PD and dystonia, and instead, our analysis now points to burstiness and firing irregularity as more reliable discriminators. Regarding the clinical correlations, we refined our statistical analysis by employing nonparametric Monte Carlo permutation tests with 5000 permutations, as used in recent work [10], [11]. This method is chosen for its independence from assumptions regarding data distribution. Specifically, we computed and tested the Spearman rho for significance using the permutation test. Then, to address multiple comparisons, we controlled the false discovery rate (FDR) using the Benjamini-Hochberg procedure. Results of these comparisons are now presented in Supplementary Table 4. Lastly, to address the concern regarding recording site independence within patients, we updated our plasticity analysis methodology. In our study, 6 out of 18 patients had multiple recording sites. Thus, to account for this, we employed linear mixed models (LMM) with patient ID as a random factor to appropriately account for the non-independence of these observations.

      [10] v Lofredi et al., “Dopamine-dependent scaling of subthalamic gamma bursts with movement velocity in patients with Parkinson’s disease,” Elife, vol. 7, p. e31895, Feb. 2018, doi: 10.7554/eLife.31895.

      [11] R. Lofredi et al., “Subthalamic beta bursts correlate with dopamine-dependent motor symptoms in 106 Parkinson’s patients,” npj Parkinsons Dis., vol. 9, no. 1, Art. no. 1, Jan. 2023, doi: 10.1038/s41531-022-00443-3.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “For comparing differences in single-neuron features between PD and dystonia, significant results were followed up with post hoc multiple comparisons with a Bonferroni correction. For clinical correlations, non-parametric Monte Carlo permutation tests were used, avoiding assumptions about data distribution. The tested values were randomly shuffled 5,000 times to form a probability distribution, with the p-value reflecting the original sample rank. All tests underwent adjustment for multiple comparisons, controlling the false discovery rate (FDR) at an α-level of 0.05.”

      “analyzed using a linear mixed model (LMM) with patient ID as a random factor, normalized fEP amplitudes as the response variable, and epoch as a fixed effect”

      “using a LMM with patient ID as a random factor”

      “However, none of the clinical correlations survived Benjamini-Hochberg FDR-correction for multiple comparisons (Supplementary Table 4).”

      “In PD, fEP amplitudes were significantly greater after compared to before HFS (LMM; p = .0075, effect size = 5.42 ± 1.79; Fig. 2C), while in dystonia, the increase approached but did not reach statistical significance (LMM; p = .0708, effect size = 2.82 ± 1.45; Fig. 2C).”

      All statistics were updated in the results section and the figures.

      “Finally, as many findings in Fig. 1 do not survive corrections for multiple comparisons, we suggest interpretation of results with caution. Despite this, many of our findings related to neuronal correlates are generally in line with previous literature, especially related to oscillatory correlates of PD and dystonia.”

      - The manuscript could elaborate on the potential mechanisms underlying the observed differences in GPi activity and plasticity and their relevance to the pathophysiology of PD and dystonia. 

      Thank you for your feedback. We have enhanced the manuscript by integrating additional discussions on previous studies related to plasticity in dystonia and PD (e.g., [12], [13]), which highlight excessive plasticity in dystonia. Although these may appear contradictory to our findings of increased plasticity in PD compared to dystonia, we propose (also justified by previous literature) that chronic dopaminergic medication use may lead to synaptic over-sensitization, which has been hypothesized as a biological mechanism underlying levodopa-induced dyskinesias (a hyperkinetic feature) in PD [14].

      [12] Y. Tamura et al., “Disordered plasticity in the primary somatosensory cortex in focal hand dystonia.,” Brain, vol. 132, no. Pt 3, pp. 749–755, Mar. 2009, doi: 10.1093/brain/awn348.

      [13] D. A. Peterson, T. J. Sejnowski, and H. Poizner, “Convergent evidence for abnormal striatal synaptic plasticity in dystonia.,” Neurobiol Dis, vol. 37, no. 3, pp. 558–573, Mar. 2010, doi: 10.1016/j.nbd.2009.12.003.

      [14] P. Calabresi, B. Picconi, A. Tozzi, V. Ghiglieri, and M. Di Filippo, “Direct and indirect pathways of basal ganglia: a critical reappraisal.,” Nat Neurosci, vol. 17, no. 8, pp. 1022–1030, Aug. 2014, doi: 10.1038/nn.3743.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “Converging evidence from past animal and human studies suggests that dystonia is associated with impaired synaptic function and abnormal synaptic plasticity [35–37]. Compared to healthy controls, it has been shown that transcranial magnetic stimulation induced motor evoked potentials (MEPs) are hyperexcitable in dystonia [38,39], and somatosensory and motor cortical plasticity is greater [40]. Likewise, enhanced long-term potentiation at cortico-striatal synapses has been shown in rodent models of dystonia [41,42]. While our finding that long term potentiation effects are greater in PD compared to dystonia (Fig. 2D) is difficult to corroborate with this literature, one potential explanation can be that all of our PD patients are long-term users of levodopa. We have previously shown that the intake of this antiparkinsonian dopaminergic medication leads to potent increases in the magnitude of direct pathway plasticity [15]. Although patients are 12hr withdrawn form antiparkinsonian medications for surgery, it could be that striato-pallidal synapses are nevertheless chronically over-sensitized from prolonged use of dopaminergic medication; which is a well-known hypothesis related to the manifestation of levodopa-induced dyskinesias (a hyperkinetic feature) in PD [43]. Indeed, a lack of depotentiation of striato-pallidal projections has previously been observed in patients with levodopa-induced dyskinesias [44]. As such, excessive plasticity of these projections may corroborate hyperkinetic features of dystonia and levodopa-induced dyskinesias in PD.”

      Reviewer #2: 

      Summary: 

      The authors investigated how neuronal activity and metrics of plasticity using local electrical stimulation in the GPi were different between Parkinson's disease and dystonia patients. 

      Strengths: 

      The introduction highlights the importance of the work and the fundamental background needed to understand the rest of the paper. It also clearly lays out the novelty (i.e., that the dynamics of plastic effects in GPi between dystonia and PD have not been directly compared). 

      The methods are clearly described and the results are well organized in the figures. 

      The results are strong with measurements from a large population of patients for each disease group and with distinct findings for each group. 

      Thank you for the kind appraisal.

      Weaknesses: 

      The discussion was hard to follow in several places, making it difficult to fully appreciate how well the authors' claims and conclusions are justified by their data, mostly in relation to the plasticity results. It may help to summarize the relevant findings for each section first and then further expand on the interpretation, comparison with prior work, and broader significance. Currently, it is hard to follow each section without knowing which results are being discussed until the very end of the section. With the current wording in the "Neuronal correlates.." section, it is not always clear which results are from the current manuscript, and where the authors are referring to past work.

      Thank you for this feedback. The main findings are now summarized in a paragraph at the beginning of the Discussion section, before being discussed in comparison to other studies in the literature in subsequent sub-sections. Moreover, throughout the Discussion, findings from our study are now always reflected by a reference to the relevant figure to more easily differentiate current findings from previous literature. Additionally, Discussion sub-sections have been expanded to consider additional literature in response to various comments throughout the Review process (including the subsequent Review comment).

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      Paper findings are referenced to figures which depict the results at hand; discussion sub-sections expanded; and the following text has been added at the start of the Discussion:

      “In particular, we found that GPi neurons exhibited lower firing rates, but greater burstiness and variability in dystonia compared to PD (Fig. 1A). While no differences were found in the power of spiketrain oscillations across disorders (Fig. 1B), we found that PD symptom severity positively correlated with the power of low-beta frequency spiketrain oscillations, whereas dystonia symptom severity positively correlated with the power of theta frequency spiketrain oscillations (Fig. 1C). Dystonia symptom severity moreover correlated negatively with firing rate, and positively with neuronal variability. These results are discussed in greater detail with respect to previous literature in the subsequent Discussion section entitled “Neuronal correlates of PD and dystonia.” In response to electrical stimulation (protocol depicted in Fig. 2A), we found significant increases in the amplitudes of positive-going stimulation-evoked field potential amplitudes (considered to reflect striato-pallidal synaptic strength; as exemplified in Fig. 2B) before versus after HFS in both PD and dystonia (Fig. 2C); with recording sites in PD exhibiting significantly greater increases (Fig. 2D). While changes to evoked potential amplitude before versus after stimulation can be considered to be reflective of long-term plasticity [15,18], the dynamics of evoked potentials during HFS (as depicted in Fig. 2E) can be considered as reflective of short-term synaptic plasticity [18,21]. To this end, our findings are suggestive of faster latency synaptic depression in PD compared to dystonia (Fig. 2F/G). Plasticity findings are discussed in greater detail in the Discussion section entitled “Direct pathway plasticity.”

      Also, I felt that more discussion could be used to highlight the significance of the current results by comparing and/or contrasting them to prior relevant work and mechanisms. The novelty or impact is not very clear as written. Could this be further substantiated in the Discussion? 

      Thank you for the feedback. The discussion has been expanded to include additional literature that is relevant to the findings reported in the manuscript. For example, with regards to the neuronal correlates sub-section, we now highlight the important findings [15] that show changes to the discharge rates and oscillatory tendencies of GPi neurons in non-human primates in response to staged MPTP applications to progressively titrate motor severity; these results substantiate our lack of correlation with firing rates in PD, and presence of a clinical correlation with beta oscillations. We additionally now emphasize human studies that found LFP power difference between PD and dystonia [3], [4]; but simultaneously highlight studies that did not find such differences in spike-train oscillations (in non-human primates) [5], which is reflective of our own findings. With regards to our plasticity sub-section, we have added new content related to previous literature on plasticity in dystonia and PD (also addressed in response to a query from Reviewer #1). For example, we bring to light a variety of previous studies [12], [13] emphasizing excessive plasticity in dystonia. However, while such studies may seem to contradict our findings of greater plasticity in PD compared to dystonia, we additionally provide hypotheses (justified by previous literature) that prolonged used of dopaminergic medication may result in synaptic over-sensitization, thus giving rise to levodopa-induced dyskinesias (a hyperkinetic feature) in PD [14].

      [3] P. Silberstein et al., “Patterning of globus pallidus local field potentials differs between Parkinson’s disease and dystonia.,” Brain, vol. 126, no. Pt 12, pp. 2597–2608, Dec. 2003, doi: 10.1093/brain/awg267.

      [4] D. D. Wang et al., “Pallidal Deep-Brain Stimulation Disrupts Pallidal Beta Oscillations and Coherence with Primary Motor Cortex in Parkinson’s Disease,” J Neurosci, vol. 38, no. 19, pp. 4556–4568, May 2018, doi: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.0431-18.2018.

      [5] P. A. Starr et al., “Spontaneous pallidal neuronal activity in human dystonia: comparison with Parkinson’s disease and normal macaque.,” J Neurophysiol, vol. 93, no. 6, pp. 3165–3176, Jun. 2005, doi: 10.1152/jn.00971.2004.

      [12] Y. Tamura et al., “Disordered plasticity in the primary somatosensory cortex in focal hand dystonia.,” Brain, vol. 132, no. Pt 3, pp. 749–755, Mar. 2009, doi: 10.1093/brain/awn348.

      [13] D. A. Peterson, T. J. Sejnowski, and H. Poizner, “Convergent evidence for abnormal striatal synaptic plasticity in dystonia.,” Neurobiol Dis, vol. 37, no. 3, pp. 558–573, Mar. 2010, doi: 10.1016/j.nbd.2009.12.003.

      [14] P. Calabresi, B. Picconi, A. Tozzi, V. Ghiglieri, and M. Di Filippo, “Direct and indirect pathways of basal ganglia: a critical reappraisal.,” Nat Neurosci, vol. 17, no. 8, pp. 1022–1030, Aug. 2014, doi: 10.1038/nn.3743.

      [15] A. Muralidharan et al., “Physiological changes in the pallidum in a progressive model of Parkinson’s disease: Are oscillations enough?,” Exp Neurol, vol. 279, pp. 187–196, May 2016, doi: 10.1016/j.expneurol.2016.03.002.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “Despite the lack of correlations with firing rate in PD, our findings seem to align with those of Muralidharan and colleagues [25], who showed that GPi neuronal firing rates may not directly correlate with motor severity but exhibit variability across the disease severity continuum in parkinsonian non-human primates (initially increasing, then decreasing, then increasing again at mild, moderate, and severe disease manifestations, respectively). Thus, while GPi discharge rates may change in PD, such changes may not be reflected by linear relationships with motor sign development and progression. Indeed, variability in spike firing rates in PD may be reflected in the considerable overlap in spiking activity between PD and dystonia (Fig. 1A), with many dystonia patients exhibiting higher discharge rates compared to PD patients. While differences in discharge rates were nevertheless observed between PD and dystonia, it may be that the combination of rate and pattern (reflected in the BI and CV) changes best differentiates the two disorders.”

      “Converging evidence from past animal and human studies suggests that dystonia is associated with impaired synaptic function and abnormal synaptic plasticity [35–37]. Compared to healthy controls, it has been shown that transcranial magnetic stimulation induced motor evoked potentials (MEPs) are hyperexcitable in dystonia [38,39], and somatosensory and motor cortical plasticity is greater [40]. Likewise, enhanced long-term potentiation (LTP) at cortico-striatal synapses has been shown in rodent models of dystonia [41,42]. While our finding that LTP effects are greater in PD compared to dystonia (Fig. 2D) is difficult to corroborate with this literature, one potential explanation can be that all of our PD patients are long-term users of levodopa. We have previously shown that the intake of this antiparkinsonian dopaminergic medication leads to potent increases in the amount of plasticity elicited in GPi [15]. Although patients are 12hr withdrawn form antiparkinsonian medications for surgery, it could be that striato-pallidal synapses are nevertheless chronically over-sensitized from prolonged use of dopaminergic medication; which is a well-known hypothesis related to the manifestation of levodopa-induced dyskinesias (a hyperkinetic feature) in PD [43]. Indeed, a lack of depotentiation of striato-pallidal projections has previously been observed in patients with levodopa-induced dyskinesias [44]. As such, excessive plasticity of these projections may corroborate hyperkinetic features of dystonia and levodopa-induced dyskinesias in PD.”

      Some specific comments and questions about the Discussion: 

      Lines 209-211 - This sentence was hard to understand, could it be clarified? 

      Lines 211-213 - What do phasic and tonic components mean exactly? Could this be specifically defined? Are there specific timescales (as referred to in Intro)?

      Lines 215-217 - It's not clear what was delayed in dystonia, and how the authors are trying to contrast this with the faster time course in PD. I think some of this is explained in the introduction, but could also be re-summarized here as relevant to the results discussed. 

      Lines 223-224 - I'm not sure I follow the implication that network reorganization leads to delayed functional benefits. Could this be further elaborated? 

      Reply & Amendments to the manuscript: Thank you for your feedback. We've made the following concise revisions to address the comments:

      We've clarified lines 209-211 to explain that variations in electrical stimulation effects on pathways in PD and dystonia may reveal the operational mechanisms of DBS, despite a common target:

      “The variation in the modulation of these projections / pathways to electrical stimulation may also indicate the mechanism by which DBS operates across PD and dystonia, despite a common stimulation target.”

      In response to the second comment on lines 211-213 about phasic and tonic components, we now specify that phasic refers to dynamic muscle contractions, and tonic to continuous muscle contractions, providing clear definitions relevant to our context:

      “Clinical studies in dystonia have shown that DBS leads to a more rapid improvement in the transient, dynamic muscle contractions (phasic components) of the disorder when compared to the sustained, continuous muscle contractions (tonic or fixed components) [33]”

      For lines 215-217, we've refined our discussion to clearly contrast the delayed response in dystonia with the faster onset in PD:

      “This contrast with PD, where the, the maximal clinical response to DBS occurs within a much faster time course [13,36].”

      On lines 223-224, we've expanded the explanation of how network reorganization may lead to delayed functional benefits, highlighting adjustments in neural connectivity and synaptic efficacy in response to stimulation:

      “which involves adjustments in neural connectivity or synaptic efficacy in response to the stimulation [14,35].”

      Could the absence of a relationship between FR and disease in PD be discussed? 

      Thank you for raising this point. Despite observing higher firing rates in PD compared to dystonia, it is unexpected that these rates do not correlate with symptom severity according to the rate model of PD [1]. However, despite the lack of correlations with firing rates, our findings align with similar animal work of Muralidharan et al. [15], which reported that neuronal firing rates within the GPi of rhesus monkeys did not increase linearly with respect to varying intensities of parkinsonian motor severity. We did however show that low beta oscillatory strength within the GPi may play a significant role in the manifestation of motor symptoms in PD; which is also in line with findings of Muralidharan and colleagues. As per the Reviewer’s request, we have included this content into our discussion.

      [1] M. R. DeLong, “Primate models of movement disorders of basal ganglia origin.,” Trends Neurosci, vol. 13, no. 7, pp. 281–285, Jul. 1990, doi: 10.1016/0166-2236(90)90110-v.

      [15] A. Muralidharan et al., “Physiological changes in the pallidum in a progressive model of Parkinson’s disease: Are oscillations enough?,” Exp Neurol, vol. 279, pp. 187–196, May 2016, doi: 10.1016/j.expneurol.2016.03.002.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “Despite the lack of correlations with firing rate in PD, our findings seem to align with those of Muralidharan and colleagues [25], who showed that GPi neuronal firing rates may not directly correlate with motor severity but exhibit variability across the disease severity continuum in parkinsonian non-human primates (initially increasing, then decreasing, then increasing again at mild, moderate, and severe disease manifestations, respectively). Thus, while GPi discharge rates may change in PD, such changes may not be reflected by linear relationships with motor sign development and progression.”

      “Indeed, Muralidharan and colleagues [25] also showed linear group-level relationships between low-beta frequency spiketrain oscillations and disease severity in parkinsonian non-human primates, despite the lack of linear relationships with spike discharge rates (as discussed above).”

      It wasn't very clear how the direct pathway can be attributed to plasticity changes if the GPi makes up both the direct and indirect pathways. Could this be further clarified? 

      The reviewer brings up an important nuanced point. Recent work from our lab [16] shows that inhibitory evoked fields in STN (which receives inhibitory fields from GPe; no other inhibitory sources) are persistent with very minimal depression during HFS. On the other hand, inhibitory fields in the SNr (which receives majority of its inhibitory inputs from striatum; though some come by way of GPe as well per anatomical literature) depress quickly. We have previously also shown these rapidly depressing fields in GPi [17], [18], which also receives the majority of its inhibitory inputs via striatum, though some also from GPe. As such, the disaggregation of striatum-mediated versus GPe-mediated inhibitory fields is achieved based on: lack of rapidly depressing inhibitory evoked field potentials in STN (which receives inhibitory inputs via GPe and not striatum), but a common presence of rapidly depressing evoked field potentials in SNr and GPi (which both receive most of their inhibitory inputs from striatum); differences in the morphology of purportedly GPe- (fast latency) versus striatum-mediated (slow latency) evoked field potentials [16]; and the presence of slow latency caudato-nigral evoked field potentials in slices [19] that are reversed by GABA antagonist application [20]. These points are indeed outlined in the first paragraph of the Discussion sub-section “Direct pathway plasticity.” However, we have now additionally added a point to the Limitations that inhibitory inputs to the GPi also come by way of GPe, though in a lesser abundance.

      [16] L. A. Steiner et al., “Persistent synaptic inhibition of the subthalamic nucleus by high frequency stimulation,” Brain Stimul, vol. 15, no. 5, pp. 1223–1232, 2022, doi: 10.1016/j.brs.2022.08.020.

      [17] L. D. Liu, I. A. Prescott, J. O. Dostrovsky, M. Hodaie, A. M. Lozano, and W. D. Hutchison, “Frequency-dependent effects of electrical stimulation in the globus pallidus of dystonia patients.,” J Neurophysiol, vol. 108, no. 1, pp. 5–17, Jul. 2012, doi: 10.1152/jn.00527.2011.

      [18] L. Milosevic et al., “Modulation of inhibitory plasticity in basal ganglia output nuclei of patients with Parkinson’s disease,” Neurobiology of Disease, vol. 124, pp. 46–56, Apr. 2019, doi: 10.1016/j.nbd.2018.10.020.

      [19] M. Yoshida and W. Precht, “Monosynaptic inhibition of neurons of the substantia nigra by caudato-nigral fibers,” Brain Res, vol. 32, no. 1, pp. 225–228, Sep. 1971, doi: 10.1016/0006-8993(71)90170-3.

      [20] W. Precht and M. Yoshida, “Blockage of caudate-evoked inhibition of neurons in the substantia nigra by picrotoxin,” Brain Res, vol. 32, no. 1, pp. 229–233, Sep. 1971, doi: 10.1016/0006-8993(71)90171-5.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “Indeed, GPi receives the greatest abundance of inhibitory inputs from striatum (direct pathway), but also it also receives inhibitory inputs by way of GPe (indirect pathway). Although we can functionally disaggregate these pathway-specific responses based on differences in morphology and dynamics of GPe-mediated versus striatum-mediated inhibitory fEPs [21]; the possibility of compounded effects cannot be completely ruled out.”

      The mechanism of short- and long-term plasticity as applied in the protocols used in this work are outlined in reference to previous citations [15, 16, 18]. Because this is a central aspect of the current work and interpreting the results, it was difficult to appreciate how these protocols provide distinct metrics of short and long-term plasticity in GPi without some explanation of how it applies to the current work and the specific mechanisms. It would also help to be able to better link how the results fit with the broader conclusions. 

      Short-term plasticity is measured as the dynamic change to the fEP during ongoing HFS. For long-term plasticity analyses, the fEP amplitudes during LFS were compared pre- versus post-HFS. To make this analysis more intuitive we have added a protocol illustration to Fig 2. We have moreover greatly expanded the discussion to include more literature related to disease-specific differences in plasticity, and implications of modulating plasticity using DBS.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      Added new panel to Fig 2

      Author response image 1.

      “Converging evidence from past animal and human studies suggests that dystonia is associated with impaired synaptic function and abnormal synaptic plasticity [35–37]. Compared to healthy controls, it has been shown that transcranial magnetic stimulation induced motor evoked potentials (MEPs) are hyperexcitable in dystonia [38,39], and somatosensory and motor cortical plasticity is greater [40]. Likewise, enhanced long-term potentiation at cortico-striatal synapses has been shown in rodent models of dystonia [41,42]. While our finding that long term potentiation effects are greater in PD compared to dystonia (Fig. 2D) is difficult to corroborate with this literature, one potential explanation can be that all of our PD patients are long-term users of levodopa. We have previously shown that the intake of this antiparkinsonian dopaminergic medication leads to potent increases in the amount of plasticity elicited in GPi [15]. Although patients are 12hr withdrawn form antiparkinsonian medications for surgery, it could be that striato-pallidal synapses are nevertheless chronically over-sensitized from prolonged use of dopaminergic medication; which is a well-known hypothesis related to the manifestation of levodopa-induced dyskinesias (a hyperkinetic feature) in PD [43]. Indeed, a lack of depotentiation of striato-pallidal projections has previously been observed in patients with levodopa-induced dyskinesias [44]. As such, excessive plasticity of these projections may corroborate hyperkinetic features of dystonia and levodopa-induced dyskinesias in PD.”

      In the Conclusion, it was difficult to understand the sentence about microcircuit interaction (line 232) and how it selectively modulates the efficacy of target synapses. Some further explanation here would be helpful. Also, it was not clear how these investigations (line 237) provide cellular-level support for closed-loop targeting. Could the reference to closed-loop targeting also be further explained? 

      We agree with the reviewer that the current wording may be confusing. We have changed the wording to be clearer. We have additionally added content related to closed-loop DBS based on chronic monitoring of evoked potential responses.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “Furthermore, chronic monitoring of evoked fields may allow for tracking of subcortical neuronal projections as indexed by inhibitory fields reported in this study. microcircuit interaction to selectively modulate the efficacy of target synapses.”

      future applications of DBS may also benefit from closed loop tuning of basal-ganglia-thalamo-cortical circuit dynamics and plasticity through chronic monitoring of evoked potential responses [56].

      How is the burst index calculated (Methods)? 

      Thank you for pointing out that the burst index definition was missing from the paper. It has now been added to the manuscript.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “The burst index was computed by taking the ratio of the means from a two-component Gaussian mixture model applied to the log interspike interval distribution, a modification of the previous mode-over-mean ISI method [20]”

      Figures and figure captions are missing some details:

      Fig. 1 - What does shading represent? 

      The shading in Fig. 1 illustrates results that were significant before adjustment for multiple comparisons.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “Depicted scatterplots are results that were significant before correction for multiple comparisons”

      Fig. 2 - Can the stimulation artifact be labeled so as not to be confused with the physiological signal? Is A representing the average of all patients or just one example? Are there confidence intervals for this data as it's not clear if the curves are significantly different or not (may not be important to show if just one example)? Same for D. What is being plotted in E? Is this the exponential fitted on data? Can this be stated in the figure citation directly so readers don't have to find it in the text, where it may not be directly obvious which figure the analyses are being applied towards? 

      Thank you for your comments regarding Fig. 2. We have made the following revisions to address the concerns:

      To clarify the presence of stimulation artifacts and differentiate them from the physiological signal, we have updated Panel B and E in the updated Fig. 2 which highlight the stimulation artifacts accordingly.

      Regarding the comment about Panel A (now B in the updated figure), it represents one single example per disease, rather than an average of all patients.

      In response to the comment about what is plotted in Panel E, we have revised the figure caption to explicitly state that it includes the exponential fit on the data.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      Figure 2 panel B and E now highlight stimulation artifacts.

      Author response image 2.

      Author response image 3.

      The figure captions could use more details, that can be taken from the text, so that readers can understand figures without searching for relevant details across the paper. 

      Thank you for your feedback. We have revised the figure captions accordingly to provide more details.

      Amendments to the manuscript:

      “Fig 1 – GPi spiketrain feature analyses and clinical correlates of PD and dystonia. (A) With respect to (A) rate-based spiketrain features, firing rate was greater in PD while burst index (BI) and coefficient of variation (CV) were greater in dystonia; whereas no differences were found for (B) oscillatory spiketrain features for theta, alpha, low beta, high beta frequencies. MWU statistical results depicted are not corrected for multiple comparisons; after correction using the Bonferroni method, only CV and BI results remain significant (please see Supplementary Table 3). (C) In PD, the power of low beta spiketrain oscillations positively correlated (Spearman correlation) with symptom severity; in dystonia, neuronal firing rate negatively correlated with symptom severity, whereas CV and the power of theta spiketrain oscillations positively correlated with symptom severity. Depicted scatterplots are results that were significant before correction for multiple comparisons; however, none of the results persist after Benjamini-Hochberg correction for false discovery rate (please see Supplementary Table 4).”

      “Fig 2 – Long-term and short-term effects of HFS on striato-pallidal plasticity in PD and dystonia. (A) Schematic of the plasticity protocol to assess long-term plasticity via fEP amplitude comparisons pre- versus post-HFS and short-term plasticity via fEP dynamics during HFS. (B) Highlights example fEP traces for measuring long-term plasticity pre- versus post-HFS, with (C) displaying group-level fEP amplitudes pre- versus post-HFS across diseases. (D) Illustrates the amount of plasticity (i.e., percentage change in fEP amplitudes pre- versus post-HFS) in both PD and dystonia, with PD showing higher levels of plasticity. (E) Provides an example of fEP traces during HFS for assessing short-term plasticity, with (F) depicting group-level decay rates of fEP amplitudes using an exponential fit on the fEP amplitudes over the first 5 stimulus pulses across diseases. (G) Shows the half-life of the fitted exponential (i.e., rate of attenuation of fEP amplitudes) between PD and dystonia, with PD demonstrating faster fEP attenuation.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Response to Reviewer 1

      Summary:

      The authors introduce a denoising-style model that incorporates both structure and primary-sequence embeddings to generate richer embeddings of peptides. My understanding is that the authors use ESM for the primary sequence embeddings, take resolved structures (or use structural predictions from AlphaFold when they're not available), and then develop an architecture to combine these two with a loss that seems reminiscent of diffusion models or masked language model approaches. The embeddings can be viewed as ensemble-style embedding of the two levels of sequence information, or with AlphaFold, an ensemble of two methods (ESM+AlphaFold). The authors also gather external datasets to evaluate their approach and compare it to previous approaches. The approach seems promising and appears to out-compete previous methods at several tasks. Nonetheless, I have strong concerns about a lack of verbosity as well as the exclusion of relevant methods and references.

      Thank you for the comprehensive summary. Regarding the concerns listed in the review below, we have made point-to-point response. We also modified our manuscript in accordance. 

      Advances:

      I appreciate the breadth of the analysis and comparisons to other methods. The authors separate tasks, models, and sizes of models in an intuitive, easy-to-read fashion that I find valuable for selecting a method for embedding peptides. Moreover, the authors gather two datasets for evaluating embeddings' utility for predicting thermostability. Overall, the work should be helpful for the field as more groups choose methods/pretraining strategies amenable to their goals, and can do so in an evidence-guided manner.

      Thank you for recognizing the strength of our work in terms of the notable contributions, the solid analysis, and the clear presentation.

      Considerations:

      (1) Primarily, a majority of the results and conclusions (e.g., Table 3) are reached using data and methods from ProteinGym, yet the best-performing methods on ProteinGym are excluded from the paper (e.g., EVEbased models and GEMME). In the ProteinGym database, these methods outperform ProtSSN models. Moreover, these models were published over a year---or even 4 years in the case of GEMME---before ProtSSN, and I do not see justification for their exclusion in the text.

      We decided to exclude the listed methods from the primary table as they are all MSA-based methods, which are considered few-shot methods in deep learning (Rao et al., ICML, 2021). In contrast, the proposed ProtSSN is a zero-shot method that makes inferences based on less information than few-shot methods. Moreover, it is possible for MSA-based methods to query aligned sequences based on predictions. For instance, Tranception (Notin et al., ICML, 2022) selects the model with the optimal proportions of logits and retrieval results according to the average correlation score on ProteinGym (Table 10, Notin et al., 2022).

      With this in mind, we only included zero-shot deep learning methods in Table 3, which require no more than the sequence and structure of the underlying wild-type protein when scoring the mutants. In the revision, we have added the performance of SaProt to Table 3, and the performance of GEMME, TranceptEVE, and SaProt to Table 5. Furthermore, we have released the model's performance on the public leaderboard of ProteinGym v1 at proteingym.org.

      (2) Secondly, related to the comparison of other models, there is no section in the methods about how other models were used, or how their scores were computed. When comparing these models, I think it's crucial that there are explicit derivations or explanations for the exact task used for scoring each method. In other words, if the pre-training is indeed an important advance of the paper, the paper needs to show this more explicitly by explaining exactly which components of the model (and previous models) are used for evaluation. Are the authors extracting the final hidden layer representations of the model, treating these as features, and then using these features in a regression task to predict fitness/thermostability/DDG etc.? How are the model embeddings of other methods being used, since, for example, many of these methods output a k-dimensional embedding of a given sequence, rather than one single score that can be correlated with some fitness/functional metric? Summarily, I think the text lacks an explicit mention of how these embeddings are being summarized or used, as well as how this compares to the model presented.

      Thank you for the suggestion. Below we address the questions in three points. 

      (1) The task and the scoring for each method. We followed your suggestion and added a new paragraph titled “Scoring Function” on page 9 to provide a detailed explanation of the scoring functions used by other deep learning zero-shot methods.

      (2) The importance of individual pre-training modules. The complete architecture of the proposed ProtSSN model has been introduced on page 7-8. Empirically, the influence of each pre-training module on the overall performance has been examined through ablation studies on page 12. In summary, the optimal performance is achieved by combining all the individual modules and designs.

      (3) The input of fitness scoring. For a zero-shot prediction task, the final score for a mutant will be calculated by wildly-used functions named log-odds ratio (for encoder models, including ours) or loglikelihood (for autoregressive models or inverse folding models. In the revision, we explicitly define these functions in sections “Inferencing” (page 7) and “Scoring Function” (page 9). 

      (3) I think the above issues can mainly be addressed by considering and incorporating points from Li et al. 2024[1] and potentially Tang & Koo 2024[2]. Li et al.[1] make extremely explicit the use of pretraining for downstream prediction tasks. Moreover, they benchmark pretraining strategies explicitly on thermostability (one of the main considerations in the submitted manuscript), yet there is no mention of this work nor the dataset used (FLIP (Dallago et al., 2021)) in this current work. I think a reference and discussion of [1] is critical, and I would also like to see comparisons in line with [1], as [1] is very clear about what features from pretraining are used, and how. If the comparisons with previous methods were done in this fashion, this level of detail needs to be included in the text.

      The initial version did not include an explicit comparison with the mentioned reference due to the difference in the learning task. In particular, [1] formulates a supervised learning task on predicting the continuous scores of mutants of specific proteins. In comparison, we make zero-shot predictions, where the model is trained in a self-supervised learning manner that requires no labels from experiments. In the revision, we added discussions in “Discussion and Conclusion” (lines 476-484):

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Comment 1

      I found the methods lacking in the sense that there is never a simple, explicit statement about what is the exact input and output of the model. What are the components of the input that are required by the user (to generate) or supply to the model? Are these inputs different at training vs inference time? The loss function seems like it's trying to de-noise a modified sequence, can you make this more explicit, i.e. exactly what values/objects are being compared in the loss?

      We have added a more detailed description in the "Model Pipeline" section (page 7), which explains the distinct input requirements for training and inference, as well as the formulation of the employed loss function. To summarize:

      (1) Both sequence and structure information are used in training and inference. Specifically, structure information is represented as a 3D graph with coordinates, while sequence information consists of AA-wise hidden representations encoded by ESM2-650M. During inference, instead of encoding each mutant individually, the model encodes the WT protein and uses the output probability scores relevant to the mutant to calculate the fitness score. This is a standard operation in many zero-shot fitness prediction models, commonly referred to as the log-odds-ratio.

      (2) The loss function compares the differences between the noisy input sequence and the output (recovered) AA sequence. Noise is added to the input sequences, and the model is trained to denoise them (see “Ablation Study” for the different types of noise we tested). This approach is similar to a one-step diffusion process or BERT-style token permutation. The model learns to recover the probability of each node (AA) being one of 33 tokens. A cross-entropy loss is then applied to compare this distribution with the ground-truth (unpermuted) AA sequence, aiming to minimize the difference.

      To better present the workflow, we revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Comment 2

      Related to the above, I'm not exactly sure where the structural/tertiary structure information comes from. In the methods, they don't state exactly whether the 3D coordinates are given in the CATH repository or where exactly they come from. In the results section they mention using AlphaFold to obtain coordinates for a specific task---is the use of AlphaFold limited only to these tasks/this is to show robustness whether using AlphaFold or realized coordinates?

      The 3D coordinates of all proteins in the training set are derived from the crystal structures in CATH v4.3.0 to ensure a high-quality input dataset (see "Training Setup," Page 8). However, during the inference phase, we used predicted structures from AlphaFold2 and ESMFold as substitutes. This approach enhances the generalizability of our method, as in real-world scenarios, the crystal structure of the template protein to be engineered is not always available. The associated descriptions can be found in “Training Setup” (lines 271-272) and “Folding Methods” (lines 429-435).

      Comment 3

      Lines 142+144 missing reference "Section establishes", "provided in Section ."

      199 "see Section " missing reference

      214 missing "Section"

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have fixed all missing references in the revision.

      Comment 4

      Table 2 - seems inconsistent to mention the number of parameters in the first 2 methods, then not in the others (though I see in Table 3 this is included, so maybe should just be omitted in Table 2).

      In Table 2, we present the zero-shot methods used as baselines. Since many methods have different versions due to varying hyperparameter settings, we decided to list the number of parameters in the following tables.

      We have double-checked both Table 3 and Table 5 and confirm that there is no inconsistency in the reported number of parameters. One potential explanation for the observed difference in the comment could be due to the differences in the number of parameters between single and ensemble methods. The ensemble method averages the predictions of multiple models, and we sum the total number of parameters across all models involved. For example, RITA-ensemble has 2210M parameters, derived from the sum of four individual models with 30M, 300M, 680M, and 1200M parameters.

      Comment 5

      In general, I found using the word "type" instead of "residue" a bit unnatural. As far as I can tell, the norm in the field is to say "amino acid" or "residue" rather than "type". This somewhat confused me when trying to understand the methods section, especially when talking about injecting noise (I figured "type" may refer to evolutionarily-close, or physicochemically-close residues). Maybe it's not necessary to change this in every instance, but something to consider in terms of ease of reading.

      Thank you for your suggestion. The term "type" we used is a common expression similar to "class" in the NLP field. To avoid further confusion to the biologists, we have revised the manuscript accordingly. 

      Comment 6

      197 should this read "based on the kNN "algorithm"" (word missing) or maybe "based on "its" kNN"?

      We have corrected the typo accordingly. It now reads “the 𝑘-nearest neighbor algorithm (𝑘NN)” (line 198).

      Comment 7

      200 weights of dimension 93, where does this number come from?

      The edge features are derived by Zhou et al., 2024. We have updated the reference in the manuscript for clarity (lines 201-202).

      Comment 8

      210-212 "representations of the noisy AA sequence are encoded from the noisy input" what is the "noisy AA sequence?" might be helpful to exactly defined what is "noisy input" or "noisy AA sequence". This sentence could potentially be worded to make it clearer, e.g. "we take the modified input sequence and embed it using [xyz]."

      We have revised the text accordingly. In the revised see lines 211-212:

      Comment 9

      In Table 3

      Formatting, DTm (million), (million) should be under "# Params" likely?

      Also for DDG this is reported on only a few hundred mutations, it might be worth plotting the confidence intervals over the Spearman correlation (e.g. by bootstrapping the correlation coefficient).

      We followed the suggestion and added “million” under the "# Params". We have added the bootstrapped results for DDG and DTm to Table 6. For each dataset, we randomly sampled 50% of the data for ten independent runs. ProtSSN achieves the top performance with a considerably small variance.

      Comment 10

      The paragraph in lines 319 to lines 328 I feel may lack sufficient evidence.

      "While sequence-based analysis cannot entirely replace the role of structure-based analysis, compared to a fully structure-based deep learning method, a protein language model is more likely to capture sufficient information from sequences by increasing the model scale, i.e., the number of trainable parameters."

      This claim is made without a citation, such as [1]. Increasing the scale of the model doesn't always align with improving out-of-sample/generalization performance. I don't feel fully convinced by the claim that worse prediction is ameliorated by increasing the number of parameters. In Table 3 the performance is not monotonic with (nor scales with) the number of parameters, even within a model. See ProGen2 Expression scores, or ESM-2 Stability scores, as a function of their model sizes. In [1], the authors discuss whether pretraining strategies are aligned with specific tasks. I think rewording this paragraph and mentioning this paper is important. Figure 3 shows that maybe there's some evidence for this but I don't feel entirely convinced by the plot.

      We agree that increasing the number of learnable parameters does not always result in better performance in downstream tasks. However, what we intended to convey is that language models typically need to scale up in size to capture the interactions among residues, while structure-based models can achieve this more efficiently with lower computational costs. We have rephrased this paragraph in the paper to clarify our point in lines 340-342.

      Comment 11

      Line 327 related to my major comment, " a comprehensive framework, such as ProtSSN, exhibits the best performance." Refers to performance on ProteinGym, yet the best-performing methods on ProteinGym are excluded from the comparison.

      The primary comparisons were conducted using zero-shot models for fairness, meaning that the baseline models were not trained on MSA and did not use test performance to tune their hyperparameters. It's also worth noting that SaProt (the current SOTA model) had not been updated on the leaderboard at the time of submitting this paper. In the revised manuscript, we have included GEMME and TranceptEVE in Table 5 and SaProt in Tables 3, 5, and 6. While ProtSSN does not achieve SOTA performance in every individual task, our key argument in the analysis is to highlight the overall advantage of hybrid encoders compared to single sequence-based or structure-based models. We made clearer statement in the revised manuscript (line 349):

      Comment 12

      Line 347, line abruptly ends "equivariance when embedding protein geometry significantly." (?).

      We have fixed the typo, (lines 372-373): 

      Comment 13

      Figure 3 I think can be made clearer. Instead of using True/false maybe be more explicit. For example in 3b, say something like "One-hot encoded" or "ESM-2 embedded".

      The labels were set to True/False with the title of the subfigures so that they can be colored consistently.

      Following the suggestion, we have updated the captions in the revised manuscript for clarity.

      Comment 14

      Lines 381-382 "average sequential embedding of all other Glycines" is to say that the score is taken as the average score in which Glycine is substituted at every other position in the peptide? Somewhat confused by the language "average sequential embedding" and think rephrasing could be done to make things clearer.

      We have revised the related text accordingly a for clearer presentation (lines 406-413). 

      Comment 15

      Table 5, and in mentions to VEP, if ProtSSN is leveraging AlphaFold for its structural information, I disagree that ProtSSN is not an MSA method, and I find it unfair to place ProtSSN in the "non-MSA" categories. If this isn't the case, then maybe making clearer the inputs etc. in the Methods will help.

      Your response is well-articulated and clear, but here is a slight revision for improved clarity and flow:

      We respectfully disagree with classifying a protein encoding method based solely on its input structure. While AF2 leverages MSA sequences to predict protein structures, this information is not used in our model, and our model is not exclusive to AF2-predicted structures. When applicable, the model can encode structures derived from experimental data or other folding methods. For example, in the manuscript, we compared the performance of ProtSSN using proteins folded by both AF2 and ESMFold.

      However, we would like to emphasize that comparing the sensitivity of an encoding method across different structures or conformations is not the primary focus of our work. In contrast, some methods explicitly use MSA during model training. For instance, MSA-Transformer encodes MSA information directly into the protein embedding, and Tranception-retrieval utilizes different sets of MSA hyperparameters depending on the validation set's performance.

      To avoid further confusion, we have revised the terms "MSA methods" and "non-MSA methods" in the manuscript to "zero-shot methods" and "few-shot methods."

      Comment 16

      Table 3 they're highlighted as the best, yet on ProteinGym there's several EVE models that do better as well as GEMMA, which are not referenced.

      The comparison in Table 3 focuses on zero-shot methods, whereas GEMME and EVE are few-shot models. Since these methods have different input requirements, directly comparing them could lead to

      unfair conclusions. For this reason, we reserved the comparisons with these few-shot models for Table 5, where we aim to provide a more comprehensive evaluation of all available methods.            

      Response to Reviewer 2

      Summary:

      To design proteins and predict disease, we want to predict the effects of mutations on the function of a protein. To make these predictions, biologists have long turned to statistical models that learn patterns that are conserved across evolution. There is potential to improve our predictions however by incorporating structure. In this paper, the authors build a denoising auto-encoder model that incorporates sequence and structure to predict mutation effects. The model is trained to predict the sequence of a protein given its perturbed sequence and structure. The authors demonstrate that this model is able to predict the effects of mutations better than sequence-only models.

      Thank you for your thorough review and clear summary of our work. Below, we provide a detailed, pointby-point response to each of your questions and concerns. 

      Strengths:

      The authors describe a method that makes accurate mutation effect predictions by informing its predictions with structure.

      Thank you for your clear summary of our highlights.

      Weaknesses:

      Comment 1

      It is unclear how this model compares to other methods of incorporating structure into models of biological sequences, most notably SaProt.

      (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.10.01.560349v1.full.pdf).

      In the revision, we have updated the performance of SaProt single models (with both masked and unmasked versions with the pLDDT score) and ensemble models in the Tables 3, 5, and 6.

      In the revised manuscript, we have updated the performance results for SaProt's single models (both masked and unmasked versions with the pLDDT score) as well as the ensemble models. These updates are reflected in Tables 3, 5, and 6.

      Comment 2

      ProteinGym is largely made of deep mutational scans, which measure the effect of every mutation on a protein. These new benchmarks contain on average measurements of less than a percent of all possible point mutations of their respective proteins. It is unclear what sorts of protein regions these mutations are more likely to lie in; therefore it is challenging to make conclusions about what a model has necessarily learned based on its score on this benchmark. For example, several assays in this new benchmark seem to be similar to each other, such as four assays on ubiquitin performed at pH 2.25 to pH 3.0.

      We agree that both DTm and DDG are smaller datasets, making them less comprehensive than ProteinGym. However, we believe DTm and DDG provide valuable supplementary insights for the following reasons:

      (1) These two datasets are low-throughput and manually curated. Compared to datasets from highthroughput experiments like ProteinGym, they contain fewer errors from experimental sources and data processing, offering cleaner and more reliable data.

      (2) Environmental factors are crucial for the function and properties of enzymes, which is a significant concern for many biologists when discussing enzymatic functions. Existing benchmarks like ProteinGym tend to simplify these factors and focus more on global protein characteristics (e.g., AA sequence), overlooking the influence of environmental conditions.

      (3) While low-throughput datasets like DTm and DDG do not cover all AA positions or perform extensive saturation mutagenesis, these experiments often target mutations at sites with higher potential for positive outcomes, guided by prior knowledge. As a result, the positive-to-negative ratio is more meaningful than random mutagenesis datasets, making these benchmarks more relevant for evaluating model performance.

      We would like to emphasize that DTm and DDG are designed to complement existing benchmarks rather than replace ProteinGym. They address different scales and levels of detail in fitness prediction, and their inclusion allows for a more comprehensive evaluation of deep learning models.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Comment 1

      I recommend including SaProt in your benchmarks.

      In the revision, we added comparisons with SaProt in all the Tables (3, 5 and 6). 

      Comment 2

      I also recommend investigating and giving a description of the bias in these new datasets.

      The bias of the new benchmarks could be found in Table 1, where the mutants are distributed evenly at different level of pH values.

      In the revision, we added a discussion regarding the new datasets in “Discussion and Conclusion” (lines 496-504 of the revised version).

      Comment 3

      I also recommend reporting the model's ability to predict disease using ClinVar -- this experiment is conspicuously absent.

      Following the suggestion, we retrieved 2,525 samples from the ClinVar dataset available on ProteinGym’s website. Since the official source did not provide corresponding structure files, we performed the following three steps:

      (1) We retrieved the UniProt IDs for the sequences from the UniProt website and downloaded the corresponding AlphaFold2 structures for 2,302 samples.

      (2) For the remaining proteins, we used ColabFold 1.5.5 to perform structure prediction.

      (3) Among these, 12 proteins were too long to be folded by ColabFold, for which we used the AlphaFold3 server for prediction.

      All processed structural data can be found at https://huggingface.co/datasets/tyang816/ClinVar_PDB. Our test results are provided in the following table. ProtSSN achieves the top performance over baseline methods.

      Author response table 1.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews. 

      eLife assessment:

      This useful modeling study explores how the biophysical properties of interneuron subtypes in the basolateral amygdala enable them to produce nested oscillations whose interactions facilitate functions such as spike-timing-dependent plasticity. The strength of evidence is currently viewed as incomplete because of insufficient grounding in prior experimental results and insufficient consideration of alternative explanations. This work will be of interest to investigators studying circuit mechanisms of fear conditioning as well as rhythms in the basolateral amygdala.

      We disagree with the overall assessment of our paper. The current reviews published below focus on two kinds of perceived inadequacies. Reviewer 1 (R1) was concerned that the fear conditioning paradigm used in the model is not compatible with some of the experiments we are modeling. The reviewer helpfully suggested in the Recommendations for the Authors some papers, which R1 believed exposed this incompatibility. In our reading, those data are indeed compatible with our hypotheses, as we will explain in our reply. Furthermore, the point raised by R1 is an issue for the entire field. We will suggest a solution to that issue based on published data.

      Reviewer 2 (R2) said that there is no evidence that the BLA is capable of producing, by itself, the rhythms that have been observed during fear conditioning in BLA and, furthermore, that the paper we cited to support such evidence, in fact, refutes our argument. We believe that the reasoning used by reviewer 2 is wrong and that the framework of R2 for what counts as evidence is inadequate. We spell out our arguments below in the reply to the reviewers.

      Finally, we believe this work is of interest far beyond investigators studying fear conditioning. The work shows how rhythms can create the timing necessary for spike-timing-dependent plasticity using multiple time scales that come from multiple different kinds of interneurons found both in BLA and, more broadly, in cortex. Thus, the work is relevant for all kinds of associative learning, not just fear conditioning. Furthermore, it is one of the first papers to show how rhythms can be central in mechanisms of higher-order cognition.

      Reviewer #1

      We thank Reviewer 1 for his kind remarks about our first set of responses and their understanding of the importance of the work. There was only one remaining point to be addressed:

      Deficient in this study is the construction of the afferent drive to the network, which does elicit activities that are consistent with those observed to similar stimuli. It still remains to be demonstrated that their mechanism promotes plasticity for training protocols that emulate the kinds of activities observed in the BLA during fear conditioning.

      It is true that some fear conditioning protocols involve non-overlapping US and CS, raising the question of how plasticity happens or whether behavioral effects may happen without plasticity. This is an issue for the entire field (Sun et al., F1000Research, 2020). Several papers (Quirk, Repa and LeDoux, 1995; Herry et al, 2007; Bordi and Ledoux 1992) show that the pips in auditory fear conditioning increase the activity of some BLA neurons: after an initial transient, the overall spike rate is still higher than baseline activity. The question remains as to whether the spiking is sustained long enough and at a high enough rate for STDP to take place when US is presented sometime after the stop of the CS.

      Experimental recordings cannot speak to the rate of spiking of BLA neurons during US due to recording interference from the shock. However, evidence seems to suggest that ECS activity should increase during the US due to the release of acetylcholine (ACh) from neurons in the basal forebrain (BF) (Rajebhosale et al., 2024). Pyramidal cells of the BLA robustly express M1 muscarinic ACh receptors (Muller et al., 2013; McDonald and Mott, 2021) and M1 receptors target spines receiving glutamatergic input (McDonald et al., 2019). Thus, ACh from BF should elicit a long-lasting depolarization in pyramidal cells. Indeed, the pairing of ACh with even low levels of spiking of BLA neurons results in a membrane depolarization that can last 7 – 10 s (Unal et al., 2015). This implies that the release of ACh can affect the consequences of the CS in successive trials. This should include higher spiking rates and more sustained activity in the ECS neurons after the first presentation of US, thus ensuring a concomitant activation of ECS and fear (F) neurons necessary for STDP to take place. Hence, we suggest that a solution to the problem raised by R1 may be solved by considering the role of ACh release by BF. To the best of our knowledge, there is nothing in the literature that contradicts this potential solution. The model we have may be considered a “minimal” model that puts in by hand the higher frequency due to the cholinergic drive without explicitly modeling it. As R1 says, it is important for us to give the motivation of that higher frequency; in the next revision, we will be explicit about how the needed adequate firing rate can come about without an overlap of CS and US in any given trial.

      Reviewer #2

      The authors of this study have investigated how oscillations may promote fear learning using a network model. They distinguished three types of rhythmic activities and implemented an STDP rule to the network aiming to understand the mechanisms underlying fear learning in the BLA.

      After the revision, the fundamental question, namely, whether the BLA networks can or cannot intrinsically generate any theta rhythms, is still unanswered. The author added this sentence to the revised version: "A recent experimental paper, (Antonoudiou et al., 2022), suggests that the BLA can intrinsically generate theta oscillations (3-12 Hz) detectable by LFP recordings under certain conditions, such as reduced inhibitory tone." In the cited paper, the authors studied gamma oscillations, and when they applied 10 uM Gabazine to the BLA slices observed rhythmic oscillations at theta frequencies. 10 uM Gabazine does not reduce the GABA-A receptor-mediated inhibition but eliminates it, resulting in rhythmic populations burst driven solely by excitatory cells. Thus, the results by Antonoudiou et al., 2022 contrast with, and do not support, the present study, which claims that rhythmic oscillations in the BLA depend on the function of interneurons. Thus, there is still no convincing evidence that BLA circuits can intrinsically generate theta oscillations in intact brain or acute slices. If one extrapolates from the hippocampal studies, then this is not surprising, as the hippocampal theta depends on extra-hippocampal inputs, including, but not limited to the entorhinal afferents and medial septal projections (see Buzsaki, 2002). Similarly, respiratory related 4 Hz oscillations are also driven by extrinsic inputs. Therefore, at present, it is unclear which kind of physiologically relevant theta rhythm in the BLA networks has been modelled.

      Reviewer 2 (R2) says “the fundamental question, namely, whether the BLA networks can or cannot intrinsically generate any theta rhythms, is still unanswered.” In our revision, we cited (Antonoudiou et al., 2022), who showed that BLA can intrinsically generate theta oscillations (3-12 Hz) detectable by LFP recordings. R2 pointed out that this paper produces such theta under conditions in which the inhibition is totally removed. R2 then states that the resulting rhythmic populations burst at theta “are driven solely by excitatory cells. Thus, the results by (Antonoudiou et al., 2022) contrast with, and do not support, the present study, which claims that rhythmic oscillations in the BLA depend on the function of interneurons. Thus, there is still no convincing evidence that BLA circuits can intrinsically generate theta oscillations in intact brain or acute slices.”

      This reasoning of R2 is faulty. With all GABAergic currents omitted, the LFP is composed of excitatory currents and intrinsic currents. Our model of the LFP includes all synaptic and membrane currents. In our model, the high theta comes from the spiking activity of the SOM cells, which increase their activity if the inhibition from VIP cells is removed. We are including a new simulation, which models the activity of the slice in the presence of kainate (as done in Antonoudiou et al., 2022), providing additional excitation to the network. If the BLA starts at high excitation, our model produces an ongoing gamma in the VIP cells that suppress SOM cells and allows a PING gamma to form between PV and F cells; with Gabazine (modeled as the removal of all the GABAergic synapses), this PING is no longer possible and so the gamma rhythm disappears. As expected, the simulation shows that the model produces theta with Gabazine; the model also shows that a PING rhythm is produced without Gabazine, and that this rhythm goes away with Gabazine because PING requires feedback inhibition (see Author response image 1). Thus, the theta increase with Gabazine in the (Antonoudiou et al., 2022) paper can be reproduced in our model, so that paper does support the model.

      Author response image 1.

      Spectral properties of the BLA network without (black) versus with Gabazine (magenta). Power spectra of the LFP proxy, which is the linear sum of AMPA, GABA (only present in the absence of Gabazine, D-, NaP-, and H-currents. Both power spectra are represented as mean and standard deviation across 10 network realizations. Bottom: inset between 35 and 50 Hz.

      Nevertheless, we agree that this paper alone is not sufficient evidence that the BLA can produce a low theta. We have recently learned of a new paper (Bratsch-Prince et al., 2024) that is directly related to the issue of whether the BLA by itself can produce low theta, and in what circumstances. In this study, intrinsic BLA theta is produced in slices with ACh stimulation (without needing external glutamate input) which, in vivo, would be produced by the basal forebrain (Rajebhosale et al., eLife, 2024) in response to salient stimuli. The low-theta depends on muscarinic activation of CCK interneurons, a group of interneurons that overlaps with the VIP neurons in our model (Krabbe 2017; Mascagni and McDonald, 2003).

      We suspect that the low theta produced in (Bratsch-Prince et al., 2024) is the same as the low theta in our model. We do not explicitly include ACh modulation of BLA in our paper, but in current work with experimentalists, we aim to show that ACh is essential to the theta by activating the BLA VIP cells. In our re-revised version, we will discuss Bratsch-Prince et al., 2024 and its connection to our hypothesis that the theta oscillations can be produced within the BLA.

      Note that we have already included a paragraph stating explicitly that our hypothesis in no way contradicts the idea that inputs to the BLA may include theta oscillations. Indeed, the following paragraphs in the revised paper describe the complexity of trying to understand the origin of brain rhythms in vivo. R2 did not appear to take this complexity, and the possible involvement of neuromodulation, into account in their current position that the theta rhythms cannot be produced intrinsically in the BLA.

      From revised paper: “Where the rhythms originate, and by what mechanisms. A recent experimental paper, (Antonoudiou et al. 2022), suggests that the BLA can intrinsically generate theta oscillations (3-12 Hz) detectable by LFP recordings under certain conditions, such as reduced inhibitory tone. They draw this conclusion in mice by removing the hippocampus, which can volume conduct to BLA, and noticing that other nearby brain structures did not display any oscillatory activity. Our model also supports the idea that intrinsic mechanisms in the BLA can support the generation of the low theta, high theta, and gamma rhythms.

      Although the BLA can produce these rhythms, this does not rule out that other brain structures also produce the same rhythms through different mechanisms, and these can be transmitted to the BLA. Specifically, it is known that the olfactory bulb produces and transmits the respiratory-related low theta (4 Hz) oscillations to the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex, where it organizes neural activity (Bagur et al., 2021). Thus, the respiratory-related low theta may be captured by BLA LFP because of volume conduction or through BLA extensive communications with the prefrontal cortex. Furthermore, high theta oscillations are known to be produced by the hippocampus during various brain functions and behavioral states, including during spatial exploration (Vanderwolf, 1969) and memory formation/retrieval (Raghavachari et al., 2001), which are both involved in fear conditioning. Similarly to the low theta rhythm, the hippocampal high theta can manifest in the BLA. It remains to understand how these other rhythms may interact with the ones described in our paper.”

      We believe our current paper is important to show how detailed biophysical modeling can unearth the functional implications of physiological details (such as the biophysical bases of rhythms), which are often (indeed, usually) ignored in models, and why rhythms may be essential to some cognitive processes (including STDP). Indeed, for evaluating our paper it is necessary to go back to the purpose of a model, especially one such as ours, which is “hypothesis/data driven”. The hypotheses of the model serve to illuminate the functional roles of the physiological details, giving meaning to the data. Of course, the hypotheses must be plausible, and we think that the discussion above easily clears that bar. Hypotheses should also be checked experimentally, and a model that explains the implications of a hypothesis, such as ours, provides motivation for doing the hard work of experimental testing. We think that R1 understands this and has been very helpful.

      —————

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This useful modeling study explores how the biophysical properties of interneuron subtypes in the basolateral amygdala enable them to produce nested oscillations whose interactions facilitate functions such as spike-timing-dependent plasticity. The strength of evidence is currently viewed as incomplete because the relevance to plasticity induced by fear conditioning is viewed as insufficiently grounded in existing training protocols and prior experimental results, and alternative explanations are not sufficiently considered. This work will be of interest to investigators studying circuit mechanisms of fear conditioning as well as rhythms in the basolateral amygdala. 

      Most of our comments below are intended to rebut the sentence: “The strength of evidence is currently viewed as incomplete because the relevance to plasticity induced by fear conditioning is viewed as insufficiently grounded in existing training protocols and prior experimental results, and alternative explanations are not sufficiently considered”. 

      We believe this work will be interesting to investigators interested in dynamics associated with plasticity, which goes beyond fear learning. It will also be of interest because of its emphasis on the interactions of multiple kinds of interneurons that produce dynamics used in plasticity, in the cortex (which has similar interneurons) as well as BLA. We note that the model has sufficiently detailed physiology to make many predictions that can be tested experimentally. Details are below in the answer to reviewers.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Comments):  

      (1) … the weakness is that their attempt to align with the experimental literature (specifically Krabbe et al. 2019) is performed inconsistently. Some connections between cell types were excluded without adequate justification (e.g. SOM+ to PV+). 

      In order to constrain our model, we focused on what is reported in (Krabbe et al., 2019) in terms of functional connectivity instead of structural connectivity. Thus, we included only those connections for which there was strong functional connectivity. For example, the SOM to PV connection is shown to be small (Krabbe et al., 2019, Supp. Fig. 4, panel t). We also omitted PV to SOM, PV to VIP, SOM to VIP, VIP to excitatory projection neurons; all of these are shown in (Krabbe et al. 2019, Fig. 3 (panel l), and Supp. Fig. 4 (panels m,t)) to have weak functional connectivity, at least in the context of fear conditioning. 

      We reply with more details below to the Recommendations for the Authors, including new text.

      (2) The construction of the afferent drive to the network does not reflect the stimulus presentations that are given in fear conditioning tasks. For instance, the authors only used a single training trial, the conditioning stimulus was tonic instead of pulsed, the unconditioned stimulus duration was artificially extended in time, and its delivery overlapped with the neutral stimulus, instead of following its offset. These deviations undercut the applicability of their findings.  

      Regarding the use of a single long presentation of US rather than multiple presentations (i.e., multiple trials): in early versions of this paper, we did indeed use multiple presentations. We were told by experimental colleagues that the learning could be achieved in a single trial. We note that, if there are multiple presentations in our modeling, nothing changes; once the association between CS and US is learned, the conductance of the synapse is stable. Also, our model does not need a long period of US if there are multiple presentations.  

      We agree that, in order to implement the fear conditioning paradigm in our in-silico network, we made several assumptions about the nature of the CS and US inputs affecting the neurons in the BLA and the duration of these inputs. A Poisson spike train to the BLA is a signal that contains no structure that could influence the timing of the BLA output; hence, we used this as our CS input signal. We also note that the CS input can be of many forms in general fear conditioning (e.g., tone, light, odor), and we wished to de-emphasize the specific nature of the CS. The reference mentioned in the Recommendations for authors, (Quirk, Armony, and LeDoux 1997), uses pulses 2 seconds long. At the end of fear conditioning, the response to those pulses is brief. However, in the early stages of conditioning, the response goes on for as long as the figure shows. The authors do show the number of cells responding decreases from early to late training, which perhaps reflects increasing specificity over training. This feature is not currently in our model, but we look forward to thinking about how it might be incorporated. Regarding the CS pulsed protocol used in (Krabbe et al., 2019), it has been shown that intense inputs (6kHz and 12 kHz inputs) can lead to metabotropic effects that last much longer than the actual input (200 ms duration) (Whittington et al., Nature, 1995). Thus, the effective input to the BLA may indeed be more like Poisson.

      Our model requires the effect of the CS and US inputs on the BLA neuron activity to overlap in time in order to instantiate fear learning. Despite paradigms involving both overlapping (delay conditioning, where US coterminates with CS (Lindquist et al., 2004), or immediately follows CS (e.g., Krabbe et al., 2019)) and non-overlapping (trace conditioning) CS/US inputs existing in the literature, we hypothesized that concomitant activity in CS- and US-encoding neuron activity should be crucial in both cases. This may be mediated by the memory effect, as suggested in the Discussion of our paper, or by metabotropic effects as suggested above, or by the contribution from other brain regions. We will emphasize in our revision that the overlap in time, however instantiated, is a hypothesis of our model. It is hard to see how plasticity can occur without some memory trace of US. This is a consequence of our larger hypothesis that fear learning uses spiketiming-dependent plasticity; such a hypothesis about plasticity is common in the modeling literature. 

      We reply with more details below to the Recommendations for the Authors, including new text.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Major points: 

      (1) This paper draws extensively from Krabbe et al. 2019, but it does not do so consistently. The paper would be strengthened if it tried to better match the circuit properties and activations.

      Specifically: 

      a. Krabbe found that PV interneurons were comparably activated by the US (see Supp Fig 1). Your model does not include that. The basis for the Krabbe 2019 claim that PV US responses are weaker is that they have a slightly larger proportion of cells inhibited by the US, but this is not especially compelling. In addition, their Fig 2 showed that VIP and SOM cells receive afferents from the same set of upstream regions. 

      b. The model excluded PV-SOM connections, but this does not agree with Krabbe et al. 2019, Table 2. PV cells % connectivity and IPSC amplitudes were comparable to those from VIP interneurons. 

      c. ECS to PV synapses are not included. This seems unlikely given the dense connectivity between PV interneurons and principal neurons in cortical circuits and the BLA (Woodruff and Sah 2007 give 38% connection probability in BLA). 

      We thank the Reviewer for raising these points, which allow us to clarify how we constrained our model and to do more simulations. Specifically: 

      a. (Wolff et al., Nature, 2014), cited by (Krabbe et al. 2018), reported that PV and SOM interneurons are on average inhibited by the US during the fear conditioning. However, we agree that (Krabbe et al., 2019) added to this by specifying that PV interneurons respond to both CS+ and US, although the fraction of US-inhibited PV interneurons is larger. As noted by the Reviewer, in the model we initially considered the PV interneurons responding only to CS+ (identified as “CS” in our manuscript). For the current revision, we ran new simulations in which the PV interneuron receives the US input, instead of CS+. It turned out that this did not affect the results, as shown in the figure below: all the network realizations learn the association between CS and fear. In the model, the PING rhythm between PV and F is the crucial component for establishing fine timing between ECS and F, which is necessary for learning. Having PV responding to the same input as F, i.e., US, facilitates their entrainment in PING and, thus, successful learning. 

      As for afferents of VIP and SOM from upstream regions, in (Krabbe et al., 2019) is reported that “[…] BLA SOM interneurons receive a different array of afferent innervation compared to that of VIP and PV interneurons, which might contribute to the differential activity patterns observed during fear learning.” Thus, in the model, we are agnostic about inputs to SOM interneurons; we modeled them to fire spontaneously at high theta.

      To address these points in the manuscript, we added some new text in what follows:

      (1) New Section “An alternative network configuration characterized by US input to PV, instead of CS, also learns the association between CS and fear” in the Supplementary information:

      “We constrained the BLA network in Fig. 2 with CS input to the PV interneuron, as reported in (Krabbe et al., 2018). However, (Krabbe et al., 2019) notes that a class of PV interneurons may be responding to US rather than CS. Fig. S3 presents the results obtained with this variation in the model (see Fig. 3 A,B for comparison) and shows that all the network realizations learn the association between CS and fear. In the model, the PING rhythm between PV and F is the crucial component for establishing fine timing between ECS and F, which is necessary for learning. Having PV responding to the same input as F, i.e., US, facilitates their entrainment in PING and, thus, successful fear learning.

      We model the VIP interneuron as affected by US; in addition, (Krabbe et al. 2019) reports that a substantial proportion of them is mildly activated by CS. Replacing the US by CS does not change the input to VIP cells, which is modeled by the same constant applied current. Thus, the VIP CS-induced activity is a bursting activity at low theta, similar to the one elicited by US in Fig. 2.”

      (2) Section “With the depression-dominated plasticity rule, all interneuron types are needed to provide potentiation during fear learning” in Results: “Finally, since (Krabbe et al., 2019) reported that a fraction of PV interneurons are affected by US, we have also run the simulations for single neuron network with the PV interneuron affected by US instead of CS. In this case as well, all the network realizations are learners (see Fig. S3). ”

      (3) Section “Conditioned and unconditioned stimuli” in Materials and Methods: “To make Fig. S3, we also considered a variation of the model with PV interneurons affected by US, instead of CS, as reported in (Krabbe et al. 2019).”

      b. Re the SOM to PV connection: As reported in the reply to the public reviews, we considered the prominent functional connections reported in (Krabbe et al., 2019), instead of structural connections. That is, we included only those connections for which there was strong functional connectivity. For example, the SOM to PV connection is shown to be small (Supp. Fig. 4, panel t, in (Krabbe et al., 2019)). We also omitted PV to SOM, PV to VIP, SOM to VIP, and VIP to excitatory projection neurons; all of these are shown in (Krabbe et al. 2019, Fig. 3 (panel l), and Supp. Fig. 4 (panels m,t)) to have weak functional connectivity, at least in the context of fear conditioning.

      In order to clarify this point, in Section “Network connectivity and synaptic currents” in Materials and Methods, we now say:

      “We modeled the network connectivity as presented in Fig. 2B, derived from the prominent functional, instead of structural, connections reported in (Krabbe et al., 2019).”

      c. Re the ECS to PV synapses: We thank the Reviewer for the reference provided; as the Reviewer says, the ECS to PV synapses are not included. Upon adding this connection in our network, we found that, unlike the connection suggested in part a above, introducing these synapses would, in fact, change the outcome. Thus, the omission of this connection must be considered an implied hypothesis. Including those synapses with a significant strength would alter the PING rhythm created by the interactions between F and PV, which is crucial for ECS and F fine timing. Thanks very much for showing us that this needs to be said. Our hypothesis does not contradict the dense connections mentioned by the Reviewer; such dense connectivity does not mean that all pyramidal cells connect to all interneurons. This hypothesis may be taken as a prediction of the model.

      The absence of this connection is now discussed at the end of a new Section of the Discussion entitled “Assumptions and predictions of the model”, which reads as follows:

      “Finally, the model assumes the absence of significantly strong connections from the excitatory projection cells ECS to PV interneurons, unlike the ones from F to PV. Including those synapses would alter the PING rhythm created by the interactions between F and PV, which is crucial for ECS and F fine timing. We note that in (Woodruff and Sah, 2007) only 38% of the pyramidal cells are connected to PV cells. The functional identity of the connected pyramidal cells is unknown. Our model suggests that successful fear conditioning requires F to PV connections and that ECS to PV must be weak or absent.”

      (2) Krabbe et al. 2019 and Davis et al. 2017 were referenced for the construction of the conditioned and unconditioned stimulus pairing protocol. The Davis citation is not applicable here because that study was a contextual, not cued, fear conditioning paradigm. Regarding Krabbe, the pairing protocol was radically different from what the authors used. Their conditioned stimulus was a train of tone pips presented at 0.9 Hz, which lasted 30 s, after which the unconditioned stimulus was presented after tone offset. The authors should determine how their network behaves when this protocol is used. Also, note that basolateral amygdala responses to tone stimuli are primarily brief onset responses (e.g. Quirk, Armony, and LeDoux 1997), and not the tonic activation used in the model.  

      We replied to this point in our responses to the Reviewer’s Public Comments as follows:

      “We agree that, in order to implement the fear conditioning paradigm in our in-silico network, we made several assumptions about the nature of the CS and US inputs affecting the neurons in the BLA and the duration of these inputs. A Poisson spike train to the BLA is a signal that contains no structure that could influence the timing of the BLA output; hence, we used this as our CS input signal. We also note that the CS input can be of many forms in general fear conditioning (e.g., tone, light, odor), and we wished to de-emphasize the specific nature of the CS. The reference mentioned in the Recommendations for authors, (Quirk, Armony, and LeDoux 1997), uses pulses 2 seconds long. At the end of fear conditioning, the response to those pulses is brief. However, in the early stages of conditioning, the response goes on for as long as the figure shows. The authors do show the number of cells responding decreases from early to late training, which perhaps reflects increasing specificity over training. This feature is not currently in our model, but we look forward to thinking about how it might be incorporated. Regarding the CS pulsed protocol used in (Krabbe et al., 2019), it has been shown that intense inputs (6kHz and 12 kHz inputs) can lead to metabotropic effects that last much longer than the actual input (200 ms duration) (Whittington et al., Nature, 1995). Thus, the effective input to the BLA may indeed be more like

      Poisson.”

      Current answer to the Reviewer:

      There are several distinct issues raised by the Reviewer in the more detailed critique. We respectfully disagree that the model is not applicable to context-dependent fear learning where the context acts as a CS, though we should have been more explicit. Specifically, our CS input can describe both the cue and the context. We included the following text in the Results section “Interneuron rhythms provide the fine timing needed for depression-dominated STDP to make the association between CS and fear”:

      “In our simulations, the CS input describes either the context or the cue in contextual and cued fear conditioning, respectively. For the context, the input may come from the hippocampus or other non-sensory regions, but this does not affect its role as input in the model.”

      The second major issue is whether the specific training protocols used in the cited papers need to be exactly reproduced in the signals received by the elements of our model; we note that there are many transformations that can occur between the sensory input and the signals received by the BLA. In the case of auditory fear conditioning, a series of pips, rather than individual pips, are considered the CS (e.g., (Stujenske et al., 2014; Krabbe et al. 2019)). Our understanding is that a single pip does not elicit a fear response; a series of pips is required for fear learning. This indicates that it is not the neural code of a single pip that matters, but rather the signal entering the amygdala that incorporates any history-dependent signaling that could lead to spiking throughout the sequence of pips.  Also, as mentioned above, intense inputs at frequencies about 6kHz and 12kHz can lead to metabotropic effects that last much longer than each brief pip (~200 ms), thus possibly producing continuous activity in neurons encoding the input. Thus, we believe that our use of the Poisson spike train is reasonable. 

      However, we are aware that the activity of neurons encoding CS can be modulated by the pips: neurons encoding auditory CS display a higher firing rate when each pip is presented and a Poisson-like spike train between pips (Herry et al., Journal of Neuroscience, 2007). Here we confirm that potentiation is present even in the presence of the fast transient response elicited by the pips. We said in the original manuscript that there is learning for a Poisson spike train CS input at ~50 Hz; this describes the neuronal activity in between pips. For the revision, we asked whether learning is preserved when CS is characterized by higher frequencies, which would describe the CS during and right after each pip. We show in the new Fig. S4 that potentiation is ensured for a range of CS frequencies. The figure shows the learning speed as a function of CS and US frequencies. For all the CS frequencies considered, i) there is learning, ii) learning speed increases with CS frequency. Thus, potentiation is present even when pips elicit a faster transient response.

      To better specify this in the manuscript, 

      We added the following sentences in the Results section “With the depressiondominated plasticity rule, all interneuron types are needed to provide potentiation during fear learning”: 

      “We note that the CS and US inputs modeled as independent Poisson spike trains represent stimuli with no structure. Although we have not explicitly modeled pulsating pips, as common in auditory fear conditioning (e.g., (Stujenske 2014; Krabbe 2019)), we show in Fig. S4 that potentiation can be achieved over a relatively wide range of gamma frequencies. This indicates that overall potentiation is ensured if the gamma frequency transiently increases after the pip.”

      We added the section “The full network potentiates for a range of CS frequencies“ and figure S4 in the Supplementary Information:

      We included in Materials and Methods “Conditioned and unconditioned stimuli” the following sentences:

      “Finally, for Fig.S4, we considered a range of frequencies for the CS stimulus. To generate the three Poisson spike trains with average frequencies from 48 to 64 Hz in Fig. S4, we set 𝜆 = 800, 1000, 1200.”

      Finally, to address the comment about the need for CS and US overlapping in time to instantiate fear association, we added the following text in the Results section “Assumptions and predictions of the model”:

      “Finally, our model requires the effect of the CS and US inputs on the BLA neuron activity to overlap in time in order to instantiate fear learning. Despite paradigms involving both overlapping (delay conditioning, where US co-terminates with CS (e.g., (Lindquist et al., 2004)), or immediately follows CS (e.g., Krabbe et al., 2019)) and non-overlapping (trace conditioning) CS/US inputs exist, we hypothesized that concomitant activity in CS- and US-encoding neuron activity should be crucial in both cases. This may be mediated by the memory effect due to metabotropic effects (Whittington et al., Nature, 1995) as suggested above, or by the contribution from other brain regions (see section “Involvement of other brain structures” in the Discussion). The fact that plasticity occurs with US memory trace is a consequence of our larger hypothesis that fear learning uses spike-timing-dependent plasticity; such a hypothesis about plasticity is common in the modeling literature.”

      (3) As best as I could tell, only a single training trial was used in this study. Fair enough, especially given that fear learning can occur with a single trial. However, most studies of amygdala fear conditioning have multiple trials (~5 or more). How does the model perform when multiple trials are given?  

      The association between CS and fear acquired after one trial, i.e., through a potentiated ECS to F connection, is preserved in the presence of multiple trials.  Indeed, the association would be weakened or erased (through depression of the ECS to F connection) only if ECS and F did not display good fine timing, i.e., F does not fire right after ECS most of the time. However, the implemented circuit supports the role of interneurons in providing the correct fine timing, thus preventing the association acquired from being erased.  

      In the second paragraph of the Results section “With the depression-dominated plasticity rule, all interneuron types are needed to provide potentiation during fear learning”, we made the above point by adding the following text:

      “We note that once the association between CS and fear is acquired, subsequent presentations of CS and US do not weaken or erase it: the interneurons ensure the correct timing and pauses in ECS and F activity, which are conducive for potentiation.”

      (4) The LFP calculations are problematic. First, it is unclear how they were done. Did the authors just take the transmembrane currents they included and sum them, or were they scaled by distance from the 'electrode' and extracellular conductivity (as one would derive from the Laplace equation)? Presumably, the spatial arrangement of model neurons was neglected so distance was not a factor. 

      Second, if this is the case, then the argument for excluding GABAergic conductances seems flawed. If the spatial arrangement of neurons is relevant to whether to include or exclude GABAergic conductances, then wouldn't a simulation without any spatial structure not be subject to the concern of laminar vs. nuclear arrangement? 

      Moreover, to the best I can tell, the literature the authors use to justify the exclusion of

      GABAergic currents does not make the case for a lack of GABAergic contribution in non-laminar structures. Instead, those studies only argue that in a non-laminar structure, AMPA currents are detectable, not that GABA cannot be detected. Thus, the authors should either include the GABAergic currents when calculating their simulated LFP, or provide a substantially better argument or citation for their exclusion. 

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing this out; this comment helped us rethink how to model the LFP. The origin of the LFP signal in BLA has not been fully determined, but factors thought to be important include differences in the spatial extension of the arborization in excitatory and inhibitory neurons, in the number of synaptic boutons, and spatial distributions of somata and synapses (Lindén et al 2011; Łęski 2013; Mazzoni et al. 2015). In the first version of the manuscript, we excluded the GABAergic currents because it is typically assumed that they add very little to the extracellular field as the inhibitory reversal potential is close to the resting membrane potential. For the revision, we re-ran the simulations during pre and post fear conditioning and we modeled the LFP as the sum of the AMPA, GABA and NaP-/H-/D- currents. With this new version of the LFP, we added a new Fig. 6 showing that there is a significant increase in the low theta power, but not in the high theta power, with fear learning (Fig. 6 C, D, E). This increase in the low theta power was mainly due to the AMPA currents created by the newly established connection from ECS to F, which allowed F to be active after fear conditioning in response to CS. 

      However, as the Reviewer mentioned, our network has no spatial extent: neurons are modeled as point cells. Thus, our current model does not include the features necessary to model some central aspects of the LFP. Despite that, our model does clearly demonstrate how rhythmic activity in the spike timing of neurons within the network changes due to fear learning (Fig. 6B). The spiking outputs of the network are key components of the inputs to the LFP, and thus we expect the rhythms in the spiking to be reflected in more complex descriptions of the LFP. But we also discovered that different LFP proxies provide different changes in rhythmic activity comparing pre- and post-fear learning; although we have no principled way to choose a LFP proxy, we believe that the rhythmic firing is the essential finding of the model.

      We have added the following to the manuscript:

      (1) In the new version of Fig. 6, we present the power spectra of the network spiking activity (panel B), along with the power spectra of the LFP proxy that includes the GABA, AMPA, and NaP-/H-/D- currents (panels C, D, E). 

      (2) We modified the conclusion of the Results section entitled “Increased low-theta frequency is a biomarker of fear learning” by saying:

      “In this section, we explore how plasticity in the fear circuit affects the network dynamics, comparing after fear conditioning to before. We first show that fear conditioning leads to an increase in low theta frequency power of the network spiking activity compared to the pre-conditioned level (Fig. 6 A,B); there is no change in the high theta power. We also show that the LFP, modeled as the linear sum of all the AMPA, GABA, NaP-, D-, and H- currents in the network, similarly reveals a low theta power increase and no significant variation in the high theta power (Fig. 6 C,D,E). These results reproduce the experimental findings in (Davis et al., 2017), and (Davis et al., 2017), and Fig 6 F,G show that the low theta increase is due to added excitation provided by the new learned pathway. The additional unresponsive ECS and F cells in the network were included to ensure we had not biased the LFP towards excitation. Nevertheless, although both the AMPA and GABA currents contribute to the power increase in the low theta frequency range (Fig. 6F), the AMPA currents show a dramatic power increase relative to the baseline (the average power ratio of AMPA and GABA post- vs pre-conditioning across 20 network realizations is 3*103 and 4.6, respectively). This points to the AMPA currents as the major contributor to the low theta power increase. Specifically, the newly potentiated AMPA synapse from ECS to F ensures F is active after fear conditioning, thus generating strong currents in the PV cells to which it has strong connections (Fig. 6G). Finally, the increase in power is in the low theta range because ECS and F are allowed to spike only during the active phase of the low theta spiking VIP neurons. We have also explored another proxy for the LFP (see Supplementary Information and Fig. S6).”

      In the Supplementary Information, we included a figure and some text in the new section entitled “A higher low theta power increase emerges in LFP approximated with the sum of the absolute values of the currents compared to their linear sum”:

      “Given that our BLA network comprises a few neurons described as single-compartment cells with no spatial extension and location, the LFP cannot be computed directly from our model’s read-outs. In the main text, we choose as an LFP proxy the linear sum of the AMPA, GABA, and P-/H-/D-currents. We note that if the LFP is modeled as the sum of the absolute value of the currents, as suggested by (Mazzoni et al. 2008; Mazzoni et al. 2015), an even higher low theta power increase arises after fear conditioning compared to the linear sum. Differences in the power spectra also arise if other LFP proxies (e.g., only AMPA currents, only GABA currents) are considered. A principled description of an LFP proxy would require modeling the three-dimensional BLA anatomy, including that of the interneurons VIP and SOM; this is outside the scope of the current paper. (See (Feng et al. 2019) for a related project in the BLA.)”

      (3) We updated the Materials and Methods section “Local field potentials and spectral analysis” to explain how we compute the LFP in the revised manuscript: 

      “We considered as an LFP proxy as the linear sum of all the AMPA, GABA, NaP, D, and H currents in the network. The D-current is in the VIP interneurons, and NaP-current and H-current are in SOM interneurons.”

      Although it is beyond the scope of the current work, an exploration of the most accurate proxy of the LFP in the amygdala is warranted. Such a study could be accomplished by adopting a similar approach as in (Mazzoni et al., 2015), where several LFP proxies based on point-neuron leaky-integrate and fire neuronal network were compared with a “groundtruth” LFP obtained in an analogous realistic three-dimensional network model. 

      To explicitly mention this issue in the paper, we add a paragraph in the “Limitations and caveats” section in the Discussion, which reads as follows:

      “LFPs recorded in the experiments are thought to be mainly created by transmembrane currents in neurons located around the electrode and depend on several factors, including the morphology of the arborization of contributing neurons and the location of AMPA and GABA boutons (Katzner et al. 2009; Lindén et al 2011; Łęski 2013; Mazzoni et al. 2015). Since our model has no spatial extension, we used an LFP proxy; this proxy was shown to reflect the rhythmic output of the network, which we believe to be the essential result (for more details see Results “Increased low-theta frequency is a biomarker of fear learning”, and Supplementary Information “A higher low theta power increase emerges in LFP approximated with the sum of the absolute values of the currents compared to their linear sum”).”

      (4)     We have removed the section “Plasticity between fear neuron and VIP slows down overall potentiation” in Results and sections “Plasticity between the fear neuron (F) and VIP slows down overall potentiation” and “Plastic F to VIP connections further increase lowtheta frequency power after fear conditioning” in the Supplementary Information. This material is extraneous since we are using a new proxy for LFP.

      Minor points: 

      (1) In Figure 3C, the y-axis tick label for 0.037 is written as "0.37."

      We thank the reviewer for finding this typo; we fixed it.

      (2) Figure 5B is unclear. It seems to suggest that the added ECS and F neurons did not respond to either the CS or UCS. Is this true? If so, why include them in the model? How would their inclusion change the model behavior? 

      It is correct that the added ECS and F neurons did not respond to the CS or US (UCS); they are constructed to be firing at 11 Hz in the absence of any connections from other cells.  These cells were included to be part of our computation of the LFP.  Specifically, adding in those cells would make the LFP take inhibition into account more, and we wanted to make sure that were not biasing our computation away from the effects of inhibition.  As shown in the paper (Fig. 6B), even with inhibition onto these non-responsive cells, the LFP has the properties claimed in the paper concerning the changes in the low theta and high-theta power, because the LFP is dominated by new excitation rather than the inhibition. 

      First, in the Results section “Network with multiple heterogeneous neurons can establish the association between CS and fear”, we commented on the added ECS and F neurons that do not respond to either CS or US by saying the following:

      “The ECS cells not receiving CS are inhibited by ongoing PV activity during the disinhibition window (Fig. 5B); they are constructed to be firing at 11 Hz in the absence of any connections from other cells. The lack of activity in those cells during fear conditioning implies that there is no plasticity from those ECS cells to the active F. Those cells are included for the calculation of the LFP (see below in “Increased low-theta frequency is a biomarker of fear learning”.)”

      Furthermore, we add the following sentence in the Results section “Increased low-theta frequency is a biomarker of fear learning”: 

      “The additional unresponsive ECS and F cells in the network were included to ensure we had not biased the LFP towards excitation.”

      (3) Applied currents are given as current densities, but these are difficult to compare with current levels observed from whole-cell patch clamp recordings. Can the currents be given as absolute levels, in pA/nA. 

      In principle, it is possible to connect current densities with absolute levels, as requested. However, we note that the number of cells in models is orders of magnitude smaller than the number being modeled. It is common in modeling to adjust physiological parameters to achieve the qualitative properties that are important to the model, rather than trying to exactly match particular recordings.

      We added to the Methods description why we choose units per unit area, rather than absolute units. 

      “All the currents are expressed in units per area, rather than absolute units, to avoid making assumptions about the size of the neuron surface.”

      (4) Regarding: "We note that the presence of SOM cells is crucial for plasticity in our model since they help to produce the necessary pauses in the excitatory projection cell activity. However, the high theta rhythm they produce is not crucial to the plasticity: in our model, high theta or higher frequency rhythms in SOM cells are all conducive to associative fear learning. This opens the possibility that the high theta rhythm in the BLA mostly originates in the prefrontal cortex and/or the hippocampus (Stujenske et al., 2014, 2022)." The chain of reasoning in the above statement is unclear. The second sentence seems to be saying contradictory things. 

      We agree that the sentence was confusing; thank you for pointing it out. We have revised the paragraph to make our point clearer. The central points are: 1) having the SOM cells in the BLA is critical to the plasticity in the model, and 2) these cells may or may not be the source of the high theta observed in the BLA during fear learning.

      We deleted from the discussion the text reported by the Reviewer, and we added the following one to make this point clearer:

      “We note that the presence of SOM cells is crucial for plasticity in our model since they help to produce the necessary pauses in the excitatory projection cell activity. The BLA SOM cells do not necessarily have to be the only source of the high theta observed in the BLA during fear learning; the high theta detected in the LFP of the BLA also originates from the prefrontal cortex and/or the hippocampus (Stujenske et al., 2014, 2022).”

      (5) Regarding: "This suggests low theta power change is not just an epiphenomenon but rather a biomarker of successful fear conditioning." Not sure this is the right framing for the above statement. The power of the theta signal in the LFP reflects the strengthening of connections, but it itself does not have an impact on network activity. Moreover, whether something is epiphenomenal is not relevant to the question of whether it can serve as a successful biomarker. A biomarker just needs to be indicative, not causal. 

      We intended to say why the low theta power change is a biomarker in the sense of the Reviewer. That is: experiments have shown that, with learning, the low theta power increases. The modeling shows in addition that, when learning does not take place, the low power does not increase. That means that the low theta power increases if and only if there is learning, i.e., the change in low theta power is a biomarker. To make our meaning clearer, we have changed the quoted sentences to read: 

      “This suggests that the low theta power change is a biomarker of successful fear conditioning: it occurs when there is learning and does not occur when there is no learning.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Comments): 

      We thank the Reviewer for raising these interesting points. Below are our public replies and the changes we made to the manuscript to address the Reviewer’s objections.

      (1) Gamma oscillations are generated locally; thus, it is appropriate to model in any cortical structure. However, the generation of theta rhythms is based on the interplay of many brain areas therefore local circuits may not be sufficient to model these oscillations.

      Moreover, to generate the classical theta, a laminal structure arrangement is needed (where neurons form layers like in the hippocampus and cortex)(Buzsaki, 2002), which is clearly not present in the BLA. To date, I am not aware of any study which has demonstrated that theta is generated in the BLA. All studies that recorded theta in the BLA performed the recordings referenced to a ground electrode far away from the BLA, an approach that can easily pick up volume conducted theta rhythm generated e.g., in the hippocampus or other layered cortical structure. To clarify whether theta rhythm can be generated locally, one should have conducted recordings referenced to a local channel (see Lalla et al., 2017 eNeuro). In summary, at present, there is no evidence that theta can be generated locally within the BLA. Though, there can be BLA neurons, firing of which shows theta rhythmicity, e.g., driven by hippocampal afferents at theta rhythm, this does not mean that theta rhythm per se can be generated within the BLA as the structure of the BLA does not support generation of rhythmic current dipoles. This questions the rationale of using theta as a proxy for BLA network function which does not necessarily reflect the population activity of local principal neurons in contrast to that seen in the hippocampus.

      In both modeling and experiments, a laminar structure does not seem to be needed to produce a theta rhythm. A recent experimental paper, (Antonoudiou et al. 2022), suggests that the BLA can intrinsically generate theta oscillations (3-12 Hz) detectable by LFP recordings under certain conditions, such as reduced inhibitory tone. The authors draw this conclusion by looking at mice ex vivo slices. The currents that generate these rhythms are in the BLA, since the hippocampus was removed to eliminate hippocampal volume conduction and other nearby brain structures did not display any oscillatory activity. Also, in the modeling literature, there are multiple examples of the production of theta rhythms in small networks not involving layers; these papers explain the mechanisms producing theta from non-laminated structures (Dudman et al., 2009, Kispersky et al., 2010, Chartove et al. 2020).  We are not aware of any model description of the mechanisms of theta that do require layers.

      We added the following text in the introduction of the manuscript to make this point clearer:  “A recent rodent experimental study (Antonoudiou et al. 2022) suggests that BLA can intrinsically generate theta oscillations (3-12 Hz).”

      (2) The authors distinguished low and high theta. This may be misleading, as the low theta they refer to is basically a respiratory-driven rhythm typically present during an attentive state (Karalis and Sirota, 2022; Bagur et al., 2021, etc.). Thus, it would be more appropriate to use breathing-driven oscillations instead of low theta. Again, this rhythm is not generated by the BLA circuits, but by volume conducted into this region. Yet, the firing of BLA neurons can still be entrained by this oscillation. I think it is important to emphasize the difference.

      Many rhythms of the nervous system can be generated in multiple parts of the brain by multiple mechanisms. We do not dispute that low theta appears in the context of respiration; however, this does not mean that other rhythms with the same frequencies are driven by respiration. Indeed, in the response to question 1 above, we showed that theta can appear in the BLA without inputs from other regions. In our paper, the low theta is generated in the BLA by VIP neurons. Using intrinsic currents known to exist in VIP neurons (Porter et al., 1998), modeling has shown that such neurons can intrinsically produce a low theta rhythm. This is also shown in the current paper. This example is part of a substantial literature showing that there are multiple mechanisms for any given frequency band. 

      To elaborate more on this in the manuscript, we added the following new section in the discussion:

      “Where the rhythms originate, and by what mechanisms. A recent experimental paper, (Antonoudiou et al. 2022), suggests that the BLA can intrinsically generate theta oscillations (3-12 Hz) detectable by LFP recordings under certain conditions, such as reduced inhibitory tone. They draw this conclusion in mice by removing the hippocampus, which can volume conduct to BLA, and noticing that other nearby brain structures did not display any oscillatory activity. Our model also supports the idea that intrinsic mechanisms in the BLA can support the generation of the low theta, high theta, and gamma rhythms. 

      Although the BLA can produce these rhythms, this does not rule out that other brain structures also produce the same rhythms through different mechanisms, and these can be transmitted to the BLA. Specifically, it is known that the olfactory bulb produces and transmits the respiratory-related low theta (4 Hz) oscillations to the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex, where it organizes neural activity (Bagur et al., 2021). Thus, the respiratory-related low theta may be captured by BLA LFP because of volume conduction or through BLA extensive communications with the prefrontal cortex. Furthermore, high theta oscillations are known to be produced by the hippocampus during various brain functions and behavioral states, including during spatial exploration (Vanderwolf, 1969) and memory formation/retrieval (Raghavachari et al., 2001), which are both involved in fear conditioning. Similarly to the low theta rhythm, the hippocampal high theta can manifest in the BLA. It remains to understand how these other rhythms may interact with the ones described in our paper.”

      We also note that the presence of D-currents in the BLA VIP interneurons should be confirmed experimentally, and that the ability of VIP interneurons to generate the BLA low theta rhythm constitutes a prediction of our computational model. These points are specified in the first paragraph in the Discussion entitled “Assumptions and predictions of the model”:

      “The interneuron descriptions in the model were constrained by the electrophysiological properties reported in response to hyperpolarizing currents (Sosulina et al., 2010). Specifically, we modeled the three subtypes of VIP, SOM, and PV interneurons displaying bursting behavior, regular spiking with early spike-frequency adaptation, and regular spiking without spike-frequency adaptation, respectively. Focusing on VIP interneurons, we were able to model the bursting behavior by including the D-type potassium current. This current is thought to exist in the VIP interneurons in the cortex (Porter et al., 1998), but whether this current is also found in the VIP interneurons the BLA is still unknown. Similarly, we endowed the SOM interneurons with NaP- and H-currents, as the OLM cells in the hippocampus. Due to these currents, the VIP and SOM cells are able to show  low- and high-theta oscillations, respectively. The presence of these currents and the neurons’ ability to exhibit oscillations in the theta range during fear conditioning and at baseline in BLA, which are assumptions of our model, should be tested experimentally.”

      (3) The authors implemented three interneuron types in their model, ignoring a large fraction of GABAergic cells present in the BLA (Vereczki et al., 2021). Recently, the microcircuit organization of the BLA has been more thoroughly uncovered, including connectivity details for PV+ interneurons, firing features of neurochemically identified interneurons (instead of mRNA expression-based identification, Sosulina et al., 2010), synaptic properties between distinct interneuron types as well as principal cells and interneurons using paired recordings. These recent findings would be vital to incorporate into the model instead of using results obtained in the hippocampus and neocortex. I am not sure that a realistic model can be achieved by excluding many interneuron types.

      The interneurons and connectivity that we used were inspired by the functional connectivity reported in (Krabbe et al., 2019) (see above answer to Reviewer #1). As reported in (Vereczki et al., 2021), there are multiple categories and subcategories of interneurons; that paper does not report on which ones are essential for fear conditioning. We did use all the highly represented categories of the interneurons, except NPYcontaining neurogliaform cells.

      The Reviewer says “I am not sure that a realistic model can be achieved by excluding many interneuron types”. We agree with the Reviewer that discarding the introduction of other interneurons subtypes and the description of more specific connectivity (soma-, dendrite-, and axon-targeting connections) may limit the ability of our model to describe all the details in the BLA. However, this work represents a first effort towards a biophysically detailed description of the BLA rhythms and their function. As in any modeling approach, assumptions about what to describe and test are determined by the scientific question; details postulated to be less relevant are omitted to obtain clarity. The interneuron subtypes we modeled, especially VIP+ and PV+, have been reported to have a crucial role in fear conditioning (Krabbe et al., 2019). Other interneurons, e.g. cholecystokinin and SOM+, have been suggested as essential in fear extinction. Thus, in the follow-up of this work to explain fear extinction, we will introduce other cell types and connectivity. In the current work, we have achieved our goals of explaining the origin of the experimentally found rhythms and their roles in the production of plasticity underlying fear learning. Of course, a more detailed model may reveal flaws in this explanation, but this is science that has not yet been done.

      We elaborate more on this in a new section in the Discussion entitled “Assumptions and predictions of the model”. The paragraph related to this point reads as follows:

      “Our model, which is a first effort towards a biophysically detailed description of the BLA rhythms and their functions, does not include the neuron morphology, many other cell types, conductances, and connections that are known to exist in the BLA; models such as ours are often called “minimal models” and constitute the majority of biologically detailed models. Such minimal models are used to maximize the insight that can be gained by omitting details whose influence on the answers to the questions addressed in the model are believed not to be qualitatively important. We note that the absence of these omitted features constitutes hypotheses of the model: we hypothesize that the absence of these features does not materially affect the conclusions of the model about the questions we are investigating. Of course, such hypotheses can be refuted by further work showing the importance of some omitted features for these questions and may be critical for other questions. Our results hold when there is some degree of heterogeneity of cells of the same type, showing that homogeneity is not a necessary condition.”

      (4) The authors set the reversal potential of GABA-A receptor-mediated currents to -80 mV. What was the rationale for choosing this value? The reversal potential of IPSCs has been found to be -54 mV in fast-spiking (i.e., parvalbumin) interneurons and around -72 mV in principal cells (Martina et al., 2001, Veres et al., 2017).

      A GABA-A reversal potential around -80 mV is common in the modeling literature (Jensen et al., 2005; Traub et al., 2005; Kumar et al., 2011; Chartove et al., 2020). Other computational works of the amygdala, e.g. (Kim et al., 2016), consider GABA-A reversal potential at -75 mV based on the cortex (Durstewitz et al., 2000). The papers cited by the reviewer have a GABA-A reversal potential of -72 mV for synapses onto pyramidal cells; this is sufficiently close to our model that it is not likely to make a difference. For synapses onto PV+ cells, the papers cited by the reviewer suggest that the GABA-A reversal potential is -54 mV; such a reversal potential would lead these synapses to be excitatory instead of inhibitory. However, it is known (Krabbe et al., 2019; Supp. Fig. 4b) that such synapses are in fact inhibitory. Thus, we wonder if the measurements of Martina and Veres were made in a condition very different from that of Krabbe. For all these reasons, we consider a GABA-A reversal potential around -80 mV in amygdala to be a reasonable assumption.

      In section “Network connectivity and synaptic currents” in “Materials and Methods” we provided references to motivate our choice of considering a GABA-A reversal potential around -80 mV:

      “The GABAa current reversal potential (𝐸!) is set to −80        𝑚𝑉, as common in the modeling literature (Jensen et al., 2005; Traub et al., 2005; Kumar et al., 2011; Chartove et al., 2020).”

      (5) Proposing neuropeptide VIP as a key factor for learning is interesting. Though, it is not clear why this peptide is more important in fear learning in comparison to SST and CCK, which are also abundant in the BLA and can effectively regulate the circuit operation in cortical areas.

      Other peptides seem to be important in overall modulation of fear, but VIP is especially important in the first part of fear learning, the subject of our paper. Re SST: we hypothesize that SST interneurons are critical in fear extinction and preventing fear generalization, but not to initial fear learning. The peptide of the CCK neurons, which overlap with VIP cells, has been proposed to promote the switch between fear and safety states after fear extinction (Krabbe al. 2018). Thus, these other peptides are likely more important for other aspects of fear learning.  

      In the Discussion, we have added:

      “We hypothesize that SST peptide is critical in fear extinction and preventing fear generalization, but not to initial fear learning. Also, the CCK peptide has been proposed to promote the switch between fear and safety states after fear extinction (Krabbe al. 2018).”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      We note that Reviewer #2’s Recommendations For The Authors have the same content as the Public Comments. Thus, the changes to the manuscript we implemented above address also the private critiques listed below.

      (1) As the breathing-driven rhythm is a global phenomenon accompanying fear state, one might restrict the analysis to this oscillation. The rationale beyond this restriction is that the 'high' theta in the BLA has an unknown origin (since it can originate from the ventral hippocampus, piriform cortex etc.). 

      In response to point 4 made by Reviewer 1 (Recommendations for the Authors) (p. 13), referring to high theta in the BLA, we previously wrote: 1) having the SOM cells in the BLA is critical to the plasticity in the model, and 2) these cells may or may not be the source of the high theta observed in the BLA during fear learning.

      In the Public Critiques, Reviewer 2 relates the respiratory rhythm to the low theta. We answered this point in point 2 of the Reviewer’s Public Comments (at p. 15).

      (2) I would include more interneurons in the network model incorporating recent findings. 

      This point was answered in our response to point 3 of the Reviewer’s Public Comments.

      (3) The reversal potential for GABA-A receptor-mediated currents would be good to set to measured values. In addition, I would use AMPA conductance values that have been measured in the BLA. 

      We addressed this objection in our response to point 4 of the Reviewer’s Public Comments.

      Reviewer #3 (Public comments):

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) The main weakness of the approach is the lack of experimental data from the BLA to constrain the biophysical models. This forces the authors to use models based on other brain regions and leaves open the question of whether the model really faithfully represents the basolateral amygdala circuitry. 

      (2) Furthermore, the authors chose to use model neurons without a representation of the morphology. However, given that PV+ and SOM+ cells are known to preferentially target different parts of pyramidal cells and given that the model relies on a strong inhibition form SOM to silence pyramidal cells, the question arises whether SOM inhibition at the apical dendrite in a model representing pyramidal cell morphology would still be sufficient to provide enough inhibition to silence pyramidal firing.

      3) Lastly, the fear learning relies on the presentation of the unconditioned stimulus over a long period of time (40 seconds). The authors justify this long-lasting input as reflecting not only the stimulus itself but as a memory of the US that is present over this extended time period. However, the experimental evidence for this presented in the paper is only very weak.

      We are repeating here the answers we gave in response to the public comments, adding further relevant points.

      (1) Our neurons were constrained by electrophysiology properties in response to hyperpolarizing currents in the BLA (Sosulina et al., 2010). We can reproduce these electrophysiological properties by using specific membrane currents known to be present in similar neurons in other brain regions (D-current in VIP interneurons in the cortex, and NaP- and H-currents in OLM/SOM cells in the hippocampus). Also, though a much more detailed description of BLA interneurons was given in (Vereczki et al., 2021), it is not clear that this level of detail is relevant to the questions that we were asking, especially since the experiments described were not done in the context of fear learning.

      (2) It is true that we did not include the morphology, which undoubtedly makes a difference to some aspects of the circuit dynamics. Furthermore, it is correct that the model relies on a strong inhibition from SOM and PV to silence the excitatory projection neurons. We agree that the placement of the SOM inhibition on the pyramidal neurons can make a difference on some aspects of the circuit behavior. We are assuming that the inhibition from the SOM cells can inhibit the pyramidal cells firing, which can be seen as a hypothesis of our model. It is well known that VIP cells disinhibit pyramidal cells through inhibition of SOM and PV cells (Krabbe et al. 2019); hence, this hypothesis is generally believed. This choice of parameters comes from using simplified models: it is standard in modeling to adjust parameters to compensate for simplifications.

      Re points 1) and 2), in a new paragraph (“Assumptions and predictions of the model”) in the Discussion reported in response to Reviewer #2 (public comments)’s point 3, we stated that modeling requires the omission of many details to bring out the significance of other details.

      (3) 40 seconds is the temporal interval we decided to use to present the results. In the Results, we also showed that there is learning over a shorter interval of time (15 seconds) where CS and US/memory of US should both be present. Thus, our model requires 15 seconds over a single or multiple trials for associative learning to be established. We included references to additional experimental papers to support our reasoning in the last paragraph of section “Assumptions and predictions of the model” in the Discussion, also reported in response to Reviewer #1 point 2 (Recommendations for the Authors). We said there that some form of memory or overlap in the activity of the excitatory projection neurons is necessary for spike-timing-dependent plasticity.

      The authors achieved the aim of constructing a biophysically detailed model of the BLA not only capable of fear learning but also showing spectral signatures seen in vivo. The presented results support the conclusions with the exception of a potential alternative circuit mechanism demonstrating fear learning based on a classical Hebbian (i.e. non-depression-dominated) plasticity rule, which would not require the intricate interplay between the inhibitory interneurons. This alternative circuit is mentioned but a more detailed comparison between it and the proposed circuitry is warranted.

      Our model accounts for the multiple rhythms observed in the context of fear learning, as well as the known involvement of multiple kinds of interneurons. We did not say explicitly enough why our complicated model may be functionally important in ways that cannot be fulfilled with a simpler model with the non depression-dominated Hebbian rule. To explain this, we have added the following in the manuscript discussion: 

      “Although fear learning can occur without the depression-dominated rule, we hypothesize that it is necessary for other aspects of fear learning and regulation. That is, in pathological cases, there can be overgeneralization of learning. We hypothesize that the modulation created by the involvement of these interneurons is normally used to prevent such overgeneralization. However, this is beyond the scope of the present paper.”

      We have also written an extra paragraph about generalization in the Discussion “Synaptic plasticity in our model”:

      “With the classical Hebbian plasticity rule, we show that learning can occur without the involvement of the VIP and SOM cells. Although fear learning can occur without the depressiondominated rule, we hypothesize that the latter is necessary for other aspects of fear learning and regulation. Generalization of learning can be pathological, and we hypothesize that the modulation created by the involvement of VIP and SOM interneurons is normally used to prevent such overgeneralization. However, in some circumstances, it may be desirable to account for many possible threats, and then a classical Hebbian plasticity rule could be useful. We note that the involvement or not of the VIP-SOM circuit has been implicated when there are multiple strategies for solving a task (Piet et al., 2024). In our situation, the nature of the task (including reward structure) may determine whether the learning rule is depression-dominated and therefore whether the VIP-SOM circuit plays an important role.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      We thank the Reviewer for all the recommendations. We replied to each of them below.

      In general, there are some inconsistencies in the naming (e.g. sometimes you write PV sometimes PV+,...), please use consistent abbreviations throughout the manuscript. You also introduce some of the abbreviations multiple times. 

      We modified the manuscript to remove all the inconsistencies in the naming. 

      Introduction: 

      - In the last section you speak about one recent study but actually cite two articles. 

      We removed the reference to (Perrenoud and Cardin, 2023), which is a commentary on the Veit et al. article.

      Results: 

      - 'Brain rhythms are thought to be encoded and propagated largely by interneurons' What do you mean by encoded here? 

      We agree with the Reviewer that the verb “to encode” is not accurate. We modified the sentence as follows:

      “Brain rhythms are thought to be generated and propagated largely by interneurons”.

      - The section 'Interneurons interact to modulate fear neuron output' could be clearer. Start with describing the elements of the circuit, then the rhythms in the baseline. 

      We reorganized the section as follows:

      “Interneurons interact to modulate fear neuron output. Our BLA network consists of interneurons, detailed in the previous section, and excitatory projection neurons (Fig. 2A). Both the fear-encoding neuron (F), an excitatory projection neuron, and the VIP interneuron are activated by the noxious stimulus US (Krabbe et al., 2019). As shown in Fig. 2A (top, right), VIP disinhibits F by inhibiting both SOM and PV, as suggested in (Krabbe et al., 2019). We do not include connections from PV to SOM and VIP, nor connections from SOM to PV and VIP, since those connections have been shown to be significantly weaker than the ones included (Krabbe et al., 2019). The simplest network we consider is made of one neuron for each cell type. We introduce a larger network with some heterogeneity in the last two sections of the Results.

      Fig. 2A (bottom) shows a typical dynamic of the network before and after the US input onset, with US modeled as a Poisson spike train at ~50 Hz; the network produces all the rhythms originating from the interneurons alone or through their interactions with the excitatory projection neurons (shown in Fig. 1). Specifically, since VIP is active at low theta during both rest and upon the injection of US, it then modulates F at low theta cycles via SOM and PV. In the baseline condition, the VIP interneuron has short gamma bursts nested in low theta rhythm. With US onset, VIP increases its burst duration and the frequency of low theta rhythm. These longer bursts make the SOM cell silent for long periods of each low theta cycle, providing F with windows of disinhibition and contributing to the abrupt increase in activity right after the US onset. Finally, in Fig. 2A, PV lacks any external input and fires only when excited by F. Thanks to their reciprocal interactions, PV forms a PING rhythm with F, as depicted in Fig.1C.”

      - Figure 3C: The lower dashed line has the tick label '0.37' which should read '0.037'. 

      We fixed it.

      - The section describing the network with multiple neurons could be clearer, especially, it is not really clear how these different ECS and F neurons receive their input. 

      We answered the same objection in the reply to Reviewer #1 in point 2 under “minor issues.”

      Discussion: 

      - The paragraph 'It has also been suggested that ventral tegmental area has a role in fear expression (Lesas et al.,2023). Furthermore, it has been reported that the prelimbic cortex (PL) modulates the BLA SOM cells during fear retrieval, and the latter cells are crucial to discriminate non-threatening cues when desynchronized by the PL inputs (Stujenske et al., 2022).' is merely stating facts but I don't see how they relate to the presented work. 

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing out that this was confusing. What we meant to emphasize was that later stages of fear conditioning and extinction appear to require more than the BLA. We specifically mention the discrimination of non-threatening cues at the end of the paragraph, which now reads as follows:

      “Other brain structures may be involved in later stages of fear responsiveness, such as fear extinction and prevention of generalization. It has been reported that the prelimbic cortex (PL) modulates the BLA SOM cells during fear retrieval, and the latter cells are crucial to discriminate non-threatening cues when desynchronized by the PL inputs (Stujenske et al., 2022). Brain structures such as the prefrontal cortex and hippocampus have been documented to play a crucial role also in fear extinction, the paradigm following fear conditioning aimed at decrementing the conditioned fearful response through repeated presentations of the CS alone. As reported by several studies, fear extinction suppresses the fear memory through the acquisition of a distinct memory, instead of through the erasure of the fear memory itself (Harris et al., 2000; Bouton, 2002; Trouche et al., 2013; Thompson et al., 2018). Davis et al., 2017 found a high theta rhythm following fear extinction that was associated with the suppression of threat in rodents. Our model can be extended to include structures in the prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus to further investigate the role of rhythms in the context of discrimination of non-threatening cues and extinction. We hypothesize that a different population of PV interneurons plays a crucial role in mediating competition between fearful memories, associated with a low theta rhythm, and safety memories, associated with a high theta rhythm; supporting experimental evidence is in (Lucas et al., 2016; Davis et al., 2017; Chen et al., 2022).”

      - The comparison to other models BLA is quite short and seems a bit superficial. A more indepth comparison seems warranted. 

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting that a more in-depth comparison between our and other models in the literature would improve the manuscript. We rewrote entirely the first paragraph of that section. The new content reads as follows:

      “Comparison with other models. Many computational models that study fear conditioning have been proposed in the last years; the list includes biophysically detailed models (e.g., (Li 2009; Kim et al., 2013a)), firing rate models (e.g., Krasne 2011; Ball 2012; Vlachos 2011), and connectionist models (e.g., Moustafa 2013; Armony 1997; Edeline 1992) (for a review see (Nair et al., 2016)). Both firing rate models and connectionist models use an abstract description of the interacting neurons or regions. The omission of biophysical details prevents such models from addressing questions concerning the roles of dynamics and biophysical details in fear conditioning, which is the aim of our model.  There are also biophysically detailed models (Li 2009; Kim 2013; Kim 2016; Feng 2019), which differ from ours in both the physiology included in the model and the description of how plastic changes take place.  One main difference in the physiology is that we differentiated among types of interneurons, since the fine timing produced for the latter was key to our use of rhythms to produce spike-time dependent plasticity. The origin of the gamma rhythm (but not the other rhythms) was investigated in Feng et al 2019, but none of these papers connected the rhythms to plasticity.

      The most interesting difference between our work and that in (Li 2009; Kim 2013; Kim 2016) is the modeling of plasticity.  We use spike-time dependent plasticity rules.  The models in (Li 2009; Kim 2013; Kim 2016) were more mechanistic about how the plasticity takes place, starting with the known involvement of calcium with plasticity.  Using a hypothesis about back propagation of spikes, the set of papers together come up with a theory that is consistent with STDP and other instantiations of plasticity (Shouval 2002a; Shouval 2002b).  For the purposes of our paper, this level of detail, though very interesting, was not necessary for our conclusions.  By contrast, in order for the rhythms and the interneurons to have the dynamic roles they play in the model, we needed to restrict our STDP rule to ones that are depression-dominated.  Our reading of (Shouval 2002) suggests to us that such subrules are possible outcomes of the general theory.  Thus, there is no contradiction between the models, just a difference in focus; our focus was on the importance of the much-documented rhythms (Seidenbecher et al., 2003; Courtin et al., 2014b; Stujenske et al., 2014; Davis et al., 2017) in providing the correct spike timing.  We showed in the Supplementary Information (“Classical Hebbian plasticity rule, unlike the depression-dominated one, shows potentiation even with no strict pre and postsynaptic spike timing”) that if the STDP rule was not depression dominated, the rhythms need not be necessary.  We hypothesize that the necessity of strict timing enforced by the depression-dominated rule may foster the most appropriate association with fear at the expense of less relevant associations.”

      - The paragraph 'This could happen among some cells responding to weaker sensory inputs that do not lead to pre-post timing with fear neurons. This timing could be modified by the "triconditional rule", as suggested in (Grewe et al., 2017).' is not very clear. What exactly is 'this' in the first sentence referring to? If you mention the 'tri-conditional rule' here, please briefly explain it and how it would solve the issue at hand here.  

      We apologize that the sentence reported was not sufficiently clear. “This” refers to “depression”. We meant that, in our model, depression during fear conditioning happens every time there is no pre-post timing between neurons encoding the neutral stimuli and fear cells; poor pre-post timing can characterize the activity of neurons responding to weaker sensory inputs and does not lead to associative learning. We modified that paragraph as follows:

      “The study in (Grewe et al., 2017) suggests that associative learning resulting from fear conditioning induces both potentiation and depression among coactive excitatory neurons; coactivity was determined by calcium signaling and thus did not allow measurements of fine timing between spikes. In our model, we show how potentiation between coactive cells occurs when strict pre-post spike timing and appropriate pauses in the spiking activity arise. Depression happens when one or both of these components are not present. Thus, in our model, depression represents the absence of successful fear association and does not take part in the reshaping of the ensemble encoding the association, as instead suggested in (Grewe et al., 2017). A possible follow-up of our work involves investigating how fear ensembles form and modify through fear conditioning and later stages. This follow-up work may involve using a tri-conditional rule, as suggested in (Grewe et al. 2017), in which the potential role of neuromodulators is taken into account in addition to the pre- and postsynaptic neuron activity; this may lead to both potentiation and depression in establishing an associative memory.”

      - In the limitations and caveats section you mention that the small size of the network implies that they represent a synchronous population. What are the potential implications for the proposed rhythm-dependent mechanism? What are your expectations for larger networks? 

      We apologize if we were not adequately clear. We are guessing that the Reviewer thought we meant the entire population was synchronous, which it is not. We meant that, when we use a single cell to represent a subpopulation of cells of that type, that subpopulation is effectively synchronous. For larger networks in which each subtype is represented by many cells, there can be heterogeneity within each subtype. We have shown in the paper that the basic results still hold under some heterogeneity; however, they may fail if the heterogeneity is too large.

      We mentioned in a new section named “Assumptions and predictions of the model” in response to point 3 made by Reviewer #2.

      - The discussion is also missing a section on predictions/new experiments that can be derived from the model. How can the model be confirmed, what experiments/results would break the model? 

      To answer this question, we put in a new section in the Discussion entitled “Assumptions and predictions of the model”. The first paragraph of this section is in the reply to Reviewer #2 point 2; the second paragraph is in the reply to Reviewer #2 point 3; the last paragraph is in the Reply to Reviewer #1 point c; the rest of the section reads as follows:

      “Our study suggests that all the interneurons are necessary for associative learning provided that the STDP rule is depression-dominated. This prediction could be tested experimentally by selectively silencing each interneuron subtype in the BLA: if the associative learning is hampered by silencing any of the interneuron subtypes, this validates our study. Finally, the model prediction could be tested indirectly by acquiring more information about the plasticity rule involved in the BLA during associative learning. We found that all the interneurons are necessary to establish fear learning only in the case of a depression-dominated rule. This rule ensures that fine timing and pauses are always required for potentiation: interneurons provide both fine timing and pauses to pyramidal cells, making them crucial components of the fear circuit. 

      The modeling of the interneurons assumes the involvement of various intrinsic currents; the inclusion of those currents can be considered hypotheses of the model. Our model predicts that blockade of D-current in VIP interneurons (or silencing VIP interneurons) will both diminish low theta and prevent fear learning. Finally, the model assumes the absence of significantly strong connections from the excitatory projection cells ECS to PV interneurons, unlike the ones from F to PV. Including those synapses would alter the PING rhythm created by the interactions between F and PV, which is crucial for fine timing between ECS and F needed for LTP.”

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      • A summary of what the authors were trying to achieve.

      The authors cultured pre- and Post-vaccine PBMCs with overlapping peptides encoding S protein in the presence of IL-2, IL-7, and IL-15 for 10 days, and extensively analyzed the T cells expanded during the culture; by including scRNAseq, scTCRseq, and examination of reporter cell lines expressing the dominant TCRs. They were able to identify 78 S epitopes with HLA restrictions (by itself represents a major achievement) together with their subset, based on their transcriptional profiling. By comparing T cell clonotypes between pre- and post-vaccination samples, they showed that a majority of pre-existing S-reactive CD4+ T cell clones did not expand by vaccinations. Thus, the authors concluded that highly-responding S-reactive T cells were established by vaccination from rare clonotypes.

      • An account of the major strengths and weaknesses of the methods and results.

      Strengths

      • Selection of 4 "Ab sustainers" and 4 "Ab decliners" from 43 subjects who received two shots of mRNA vaccinations.

      • Identification of S epitopes of T cells together with their transcriptional profiling. This allowed the authors to compare the dominant subsets between sustainers and decliners.

      Weaknesses

      • Fig. 3 provides the epitopes, and the type of T cells, yet the composition of subsets per subject was not provided. It is possible that only one subject out of 4 sustainers expressed many Tfh clonotypes and explained the majority of Tfh clonotypes in the sustainer group. To exclude this possibility, the data on the composition of the T cell subset per subject (all 8 subjects) should be provided.

      In accordance with the reviewer’s suggestion, we provided the composition of the T cell subset per subject (all 8 subjects) in the revised manuscript (shown below).

      Author response image 1.

      • S-specific T cells were obtained after a 10-day culture with peptides in the presence of multiple cytokines. This strategy tends to increase a background unrelated to S protein. Another shortcoming of this strategy is the selection of only T cells amenable to cell proliferation. This strategy will miss anergic or less-responsive T cells and thus create a bias in the assessment of S-reactive T cell subsets. This limitation should be described in the Discussion.

      We thank the reviewer for raising the question related to our experimental strategy. We chose this method because a background unrelated to S protein was lower than widely used AIM methods, which is verified by reconstituting many TCRs and testing the responses in vitro. One more reason is this method can identify S-reactive functional (proliferative) T cell clonotypes than anergic or less-responsive T cells as the reviewer mentioned, which is our objective in this study. In accordance with the reviewer’s suggestion, we have carefully described our limitation and rationale of our experimental strategy in the revised manuscript.

      • Fig. 5 shows the epitopes and the type of T cells present at baseline. Do they react to HCoV-derived peptides? I guess not, as it is not clearly described. If the authors have the data, it should be provided.

      As the reviewer mentioned, the pre-existing highly expanded clonotypes that we analyzed did not react to HCoV-derived peptides. After we determined the epitopes of the clonotypes, the S peptide sequences were analyzed for homology in HCoVs. The only two clonotypes whose epitope sequences were relatively conserved in HCoV strains (clonotypes #8-pre_9 and #8-pre_10) were tested for their reactivity to the similar HCoV epitope counterparts, but no activation was observed (shown below). We added these data in the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 2.

      • As the authors discussed (L172), pre-existing S-reactive T cells were of low affinity. The raw flow data, as shown in Fig. S3, for pre-existing T cells may help discuss this aspect.

      As the reviewer mentioned, some pre-existing S-reactive T cells might appear to react with S peptides judging from the NFAT-GFP expression of their reporter cell lines. However, the percentage of GFP-expressing cells is affected by many factors such as TCR expression level and HLA molecule expression level. Thus, the affinity of pre-existing S-reactive T cells was not fully deduced from the activation of reporter cell lines as shown in Fig. S3 in the present manuscript. We thank the reviewer for this constructive suggestion, but we therefore decided not to use these data quantitatively to evaluate affinity in this manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      A short-term comparison of durability of S antibody levels after 2-dose vaccination, showing that better or more poorly sustained responses correlate with the presence of Tfh cells.

      Strengths:

      Novelty of approach in expanding, sequencing and expressing TCRs for functional studies from the implicated populations.

      Weaknesses:

      Somewhat outdated question, short timeline, small numbers, over-interpretation of sequence homology data

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In line with my above comments, it might be useful for the authors to look at moderating some of the assertions in what is a rather small-scale descriptive account of correlates of some quite nuanced, short-term, S antibody response differences

      We clearly described that some homologous microbe-derived peptides were indeed recognized by S-reactive T cells. Also, we have removed our overstatement from the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The paper aims to investigate the relationship between anti-S protein antibody titers with the phenotypes&clonotypes of S-protein-specific T cells, in people who receive SARS-CoV2 mRNA vaccines. To do this, the paper recruited a cohort of Covid-19 naive individuals who received the SARS-CoV2 mRNA vaccines and collected sera and PBMCs samples at different timepoints. Then they mainly generate three sets of data: 1). Anti-S protein antibody titers on all timepoints. 2) Single-cell RNAseq/TCRseq dataset for divided T cells after stimulation by S-protein for 10 days. 3) Corresponding epitopes for each expanded TCR clones. After analyzing these results, the paper reports two major findings & claims: A) Individuals having sustained anti-S protein antibody response also have more so-called Tfh cells in their single-cell dataset, which suggests Tfh-polarization of S-specific T cells can be a marker to predict the longevity of anti-S antibody. B). S-reactive T cells do exist before the vaccination, but they seem to be unable to respond to Covid-19 vaccination properly.

      The paper's strength is it uses a very systemic and thorough strategy trying to dissect the relationship between antibody titers, T cell phenotypes, TCR clonotypes and corresponding epitopes, and indeed it reports several interesting findings about the relationship of Tfh/sustained antibody and about the S-reactive clones that exist before the vaccination. However, the main weakness is these interesting claims are not sufficiently supported by the evidence presented in this paper. I have the following major concerns:

      (1) The biggest claim of the paper, which is the acquisition of S-specific Tfh clonotypes is associated with the longevity of anti-S antibodies, should be based on proper statistical analysis rather than just a UMAP as in Fig2 C, E, F. The paper only shows the pooled result, but it looks like most of the so-called Tfh cells come from a single donor #27. If separating each of the 4 decliners and sustainers and presenting their Tfh% in total CD4+ T cells respectively, will it statistically have a significant difference between those decliners and sustainers? I want to emphasize that solid scientific conclusions need to be drawn based on proper sample size and statistical analysis.

      In accordance with the reviewer’s request, we have also analyzed the T cells separately (shown below). We observed the average frequency was much lower in decliners than sustainers, while the difference did not reach statistical significance partly because of the large deviation due to one sustainer (#27) who possessed quite a high Tfh%. We modified our description in the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 3.

      (2) The paper does not provide any information to justify its cell annotation as presented in Fig 2B, 4A. Moreover, in my opinion, it is strange to see that there are two clusters of cells sit on both the left and right side of UMAP in Fig2B but both are annotated as CD4 Tcm and Tem. Also Tfh and Treg belong to a same cluster in Fig 2B but they should have very distinct transcriptomes and should be separated nicely. Therefore I believe the paper can be more convincing if it can present more information and discussion about the basis for its cell annotation.

      We agree with the reviewer’s concern. Since antigen stimulation only induced the proliferation of antigen-specific T cells, the multiple clusters were mostly due to the fluctuation of cell cyclerelated genes. We therefore carefully and manually annotated these clusters by selecting the cell type-related genes (Kaech et al, Nat. Rev. Immunol., 2002; Sallusto et al, Annu Rev Immunol., 2004) and determined their subsets regardless of the automatic clustering based on the whole transcriptome. Indeed, antigen-responded Tfh and Treg are close, as ICOS and PDCD1 are expressed. We mainly used IL21 and FOXP3 to distinguish the Tfh and Treg populations, respectively. We thank the reviewer for pointing out this important process that we carefully addressed. We added the description of annotation methods to the revised manuscript.

      (3) Line 103-104, the paper claims that the Tfh cluster likely comes from cTfh cells. However considering the cells have been cultured/stimulated for 10 days, cTfh cells might lose all Tfh features after such culture. To my best knowledge there is no literature to support the notion that cTfh cells after stimulated in vitro for 10 days (also in the presence of IL2, IL7 and IL15), can still retain a Tfh phenotype after 10 days. It is possible that what actually happens is, instead of having more S-specific cTfh cells before the cell culture, the sustainers' PBMC can create an environment that favors the Tfh cell differentiation (such as express more pro-Tfh cytokines/co-stimulations). Thus after 10-days culture, there are more Tfh-like cells detected in the sustainers. The paper may need to include more evidence to support cTfh cells can retain Tfh features after 10-days' culture.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important issue. As the reviewer pointed out, culturing T cells for 10 days indeed changed the repertoire and features, so the Tfh clonotypes we detected after the expansion may not correspond to the cTfh clonotypes in vivo. Because our observation and analysis were mostly based on the dominant T cell clonotypes expanded in vitro, we modified our description and conclusion accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      (4) It is in my opinion inaccurate to use cell number in Fig4B to determine whether such clone expands or not, given that the cell number can be affected by many factors like the input number, the stimulation quality and the PBMC sample quality. A more proper analysis should be considered by calculating the relative abundance of each TCR clone in total CD4 T cells in each timepoint.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out our inaccuracy. As the reviewer suggested, we used percentages to demonstrate the relative abundance of each clonotype in Fig. 4B of the revised manuscript.

      (5) It is well-appreciated to express each TCR in cell line and to determine the epitopes. However, the author needs to make very sure that this analysis is performed correctly because a large body of conclusions of the paper are based on such epitope analysis. However, I notice something strange (maybe I am wrong) but for example, Table 4 donor #8 clonotype post_6 and _7, these two clonotypes have exactly the same TRAV5 and TRAJ5 usage. Because alpha chain don't have a D region, in theory these clonotypes, if have the same VJ usage, they should have the same alpha chain CDR3 sequences, however, in the table they have very different CDR3α aa sequences. I wish the author could double check their analysis and I apologize in advance if I raise such questions based on wrong knowledge.

      We thank the reviewer for carefully reading our manuscript. Although the two clonotypes, donor #8 clonotype post_6 and _7, have the exactly same TRAV5 and TRAJ5 usage, they have different CDR3a aa sequences due to random nucleotide addition in the rearrangement. Likewise, donor #27 clonotype post_1 and donor #13 clonotype post_15 had the same TRAV9-2 and TRAJ17 usage but different CDR3a.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Related to my public review 1. To make a solid conclusion, I think the author can include more sustainers and decliners if possible, can just stimulate their PBMCs for 10 days and check the Tfh features in proliferated CD4 T cells (e.g. IL21 secretion, PD-1 expression etc). And then compare these values in sustainers vs decliners

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Unfortunately, additional PBMCs from more sustainers and decliners are not available to us. Instead, we carefully described the current observation in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Related to my public review 3. The author can attempt to sort CXCR5+ cTfh and CXCR5- non cTfh, stimulate in vitro for 10 days and compare whether the stimulated cTfh still have more Tfh-related features such as increased IL- 21 secretion.

      As the reviewer recommended, sorting and culturing the cTfh and non cTfh separately will clarify this issue. Due to the limitation of the samples, we could not perform these experiments.

      (3) I couldn't find information about the availability of data and code to analyze the single cell RNA-seq dataset in the manuscript

      We clarified the availability of data and added the codes for the single cell RNA-seq dataset in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Specific comments to improve the quality of the work:

      (1) The choice of subunits to tag are really not ideal. In the available structures of the human proteasome, The C-terminus of Rpn3/PSMD3 points directly toward the ATPase pore and is likely to disrupt the structure and/or dynamics of the proteasome during proteolysis (see comments regarding controls for functionality below). Similarly, the C-terminal tail of Rpt1/PSMC2 has a key role in the opening of the 20S core particle gate for substrate translocation and processing (see 2018 Nature Communications, 9:1360 and 2018 Cell Reports 24:1301-1315), and Alpha3/PSMA4 can be substituted by a second copy of Alpha4/PSMA7 in some conditions (although tagging Alpha3/PSMA4 would admittedly provide a picture of the canonical proteasome interactome while actively excluding the interactome of the non-canonical proteasomes that form via replacement of Alpha3/PSMA4). Comparison of these cell lines with lines harboring tags on subunits that are commonly used for tagging in the field because of a lack of impacts, such as the N-terminus of Rpn1/PSMD2, the C-terminus of Rpn11/PSMD14, and the C-terminus of Beta4/PSMB2 would help instill confidence that the interactome reported largely arises from mature, functional proteasomes rather than subcomplexes, defective proteasomes, or other species that may occur due to tagging at these positions.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The original purpose of our strategy was to establish proximity labeling of proteasomes to enable applications both in cell culture and in vivo. The choice of PSMA4 and PSMC2 was dictated by previous successful tagging with GFP in mammalian cells (Salomons et al., Exp Cell Res 2010)(Bingol and Schuman, Nature 2006). However, the choice of C-terminal PSMC2 might have been not optimal. HEK293 cells overexpressing PSMC2-BirA show slower growth and the BioID data retrieve higher enrichment of assembly factors suggesting slower assembly of this fusion protein in proteasome. Although we did not observe a negative impact on overall proteasome activity and PSMC2-BirA was (at least in part) incorporated into fully assembled proteasomes as indicated by enrichment of 20S proteins.We apologize for not making it clear that we labeled the N-terminus of PSMD3/Rpn3 and not the C-terminus (Figure 1a and S1a). Therefore, we included in Figure S1a of the revised manuscript structures of the proteasome where the tagged subunit termini are highlighted: C-terminus for PSMA4 and PSMC2 and N-terminus for PSMD3. Additionally, we would like to point out that, differently from PSMC2-BirA, cells expressing BirA-PSMD3 did not show slower growth, and BioID data showed a more homogenous enrichment of both 19S and 20S proteins, as compared to PSMC2-BirA (Figure 1D and 1E). However, the overall level of enrichment of proteasome subunits was not comparable to PSMA4-BirA and, therefore, we opted for focusing the rest of the manuscript on this construct.

      In support of this point, the data provided in Figure 1E in which the change in the abundances of each proteasome subunit in the tagged line vs. the BirA control line demonstrates substantial enrichment of the subcomplexes of the proteasome that are tagged in each case; this effect may represent the known feedback-mediated upregulation of new proteasome subunit synthesis that occurs when proteasomal proteolysis is impaired, or alternatively, the accumulation of subcomplexes containing the tagged subunit that cannot readily incorporate into mature proteasomes. Acknowledging this limitation in the text would be valuable to readers who are less familiar with the proteasome.

      We would like to clarify that the data shown in Figure 1E do not represent whole proteome data, but rather log2 fold changes vs. BirA* control calculated on streptavidin enrichment samples. The differences in the enrichment of the various subcomplexes between cell lines derives from the fact that the effect size of the enrichment depends on both protein abundance in the isolated complexes, but also on the efficiency of biotinylation. The latter will be higher for proteins located in closer proximity to the bait. A similar observation was pointed out in a recent publication (PMID:36410438) that compared BioID and Co-IP for the same bait. When a component of the nuclear pore complex (Nup158) was analyzed by BioID only the more proximal proteins were enriched as compared to the whole complex in Co-IP data (Author response image 1):

      Author response image 1.

      Proteins identified in the NUP158 BioID or pulldown experiments are filled in red or light red for significance intervals A or B, respectively. The bait protein NUP158 is filled in yellow. Proteins enriched in the pulldown falling outside the SigA/B cutoff are filled in gray. NPC, nuclear pore complex. SigA, significant class A; SigB, significant class B. Reproduced from Figure 6 of PMID: 36410438.

      However, we would like to point out that despite quantitative differences between different proteasome subunits, both 19S and 20S proteins were found to be strongly enriched (typically >2 fold) in all the constructs compared to BirA* control line (Figure 1E). This indicates that at least a fraction of all the tagged subunits are incorporated into fully assembled proteasomes.

      Regarding the upregulation of proteasome subunits as a consequence of proteasome dysfunction, we did not find evidence of this, at least in the case of PSMA4. The immunoblot shown in Figure 2A and its quantification in S3A indicate no increased abundance of endogenous PSMA4 upon tetracycline induction of PSMA4-BirA*.

      (2) The use of myc as a substrate of the proteasome for demonstration that proteolysis is unaffected is perhaps not ideal. Myc is known to be degraded via both ubiquitin-dependent and ubiquitin-independent mechanisms, such that disruption of one means of degradation (e.g., ubiquitin-dependent degradation) via a given tag could potentially be compensated by another. A good example of this is that the C-terminal tagging of PSMC2/Rpt1 is likely to disrupt interaction between the core particle and the regulatory particle (as suggested in Fig. 1D); this may free up the core particle for ubiquitin-independent degradation of myc.

      Aside from using specific reporters for ubiquitin-dependent vs. independent degradation or a larger panel of known substrates, analysis of the abundance of K48-ubiquitinated proteins in the control vs. tag lines would provide additional evidence as to whether or not proteolysis is generally perturbed in the tag lines.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have included an immunoblot analysis showing that the levels of K48 ubiquitylation (Figure S3d) are not affected by the expression of tagged PSMA4.

      (3) On pg. 8 near the bottom, the authors accidentally refer to ARMC6 as ARMC1 in one instance.

      We have corrected the mistake.

      (4) On pg. 10, the authors explain that they analyzed the interactome for all major mouse organs except the brain; although they explain in the discussion section why the brain was excluded, including this explanation on pg. 10 here instead of in the discussion might be a better place to discuss this.

      We moved the explanation from the discussion to the results part.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Perhaps the authors can quantify the fraction of unassembled PSMA4-BirA* from the SEC experiment (Fig. 2b) to give the readers a feeling for how large a problem this could be.

      The percentages based on Area Under the Curve calculations have been added to Figure S3b.

      (2) Do the authors observe any difference in the enrichment scores between proteins that are known to interact with the proteasome vs proteins that the authors can justify as "interactors of interactors" vs the completely new potential interactors? This could be an interesting way to show that the potential new interactors are not simply because of poor false positive rate calibration, but that they behave in the same way as the other populations.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We analyzed the enrichment scores for 20S proteasome subunits, known PIPs, first neighbors and the remaining enriched proteins. The remaining proteins (potential new interactors) have very similar scores as the first neighbors of known interactors. This plot has been added to Figure S3g.

      (3) Did the authors try to train a logistic model for the miniTurbo experiments, like it was done for the BirA* experiments? Perhaps combining the results of both experiments would yield higher confidence on the proteasome interactors.

      Following the reviewers suggestion, we applied the classifier on the dataset of the comparison between miniTurbo and PSMA-miniTurbo. We found a clear separation between the FPR and the TPR with 136 protein groups enriched in PSMA-miniTurbo. We have added the classifier and corresponding ROC curve to Figure S4f and S4g.

      75 protein groups were found to be enriched for both PSMA4-BirA* and PSMA4-miniTurbo (Author response image 2), including the proteasome core particles, regulatory particles, known interactors and potential new interactors. As we focused more on the identification of substrates with PSMA4-miniTurbo, we did not pursue these overlapping protein groups further, but rather used the comparison to the mouse model to identify potential new interactors.

      Author response image 2.

      Overlap between ProteasomeID enriched proteins (fpr<0.05) between PSMA4-BirA* and PSMA4-miniTurbo.

      (4) Perhaps this is already known, but did the authors check if MG132 affect proteasome assembly? The authors could for example repeat their SEC experiments in the presence of MG132.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion, however to our knowledge there are no reports that MG132 has an effect on the assembly of the proteasome. MG132 is one of the most used proteasome inhibitors in basic research and as such has been extensively characterized in the last 3 decades. The small peptide aldehyde acts as a substrate analogue and binds directly to the active site of the protease PSMB5/β5. We therefore think it is unlikely that MG132 is interfering with the assembly of the proteasome.

      (5) Minor comment: at the bottom of page 8, the authors probably mean ARMC6 and not ARMC1.

      We have corrected the mistake.

      (6) It would be interesting to expand the analysis of the already acquired in vivo data to try to identify tissue-specific proteasome interactors. Can the authors draw a four-way Venn diagram with the interactors of each tissue?

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have generated an UpSet plot showing the overlap of ProteasomeID enriched proteins in the four tissues that gave us meaningful results (Author response image 3). In order to investigate whether the observed differences in ProteasomeID enriched proteins could be meaningful in terms of proteasome biology, we have highlighted proteins belonging to the UPS that show tissue specific enrichments. We found proteasome activators such as PSME1/PA28alpha and PSME2/PA28beta to enrich preferentially in kidney and liver, respectively, as well as multiple deubiquitinases to enrich preferentially in the heart. These differences might be related to the specific cellular composition of the different tissues, e.g., number of immune cells present, or the tissue-specific interaction of proteasomes with enzymes involved in the ubiquitin cycle. Given the rather preliminary nature of these findings, we have opted for not including this figure in the main manuscript, but rather include it only in this rebuttal letter.

      Author response image 3.

      Upset plot showing overlap between ProteasomeID enriched proteins in different mouse organs.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In the first paragraph of the Introduction, the authors link cellular senescence caused by partial proteasome inhibition with the efficacy of proteasome inhibitors in cancer therapy. Although this is an interesting hypothesis, I am not aware of any direct evidence for this; rather, I believe the efficacy of bortezomib/carfilzomib in haematological malignancies is most commonly attributed to these cells having adapted to high levels of proteotoxic stress (e.g., chronic unfolded protein response activation). I would suggest rephrasing this sentence.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment and have amended the introduction.

      (2) For the initial validation experiments (e.g., Fig. 1B), have the authors checked what level of Streptavidin signal is obtained with "+ bio, - tet" ? Although I accept that the induction of PSMA4-BirA* upon doxycycline addition is clear from the anti-Flag blots, it would still be informative to ascertain what level of background labelling is obtained without induction (but in the presence of exogenous biotin).

      We tested four different conditions +/- tet and +/- biotin (24h) in PSMA4-BirA* cell lines (Author response image 4). As expected, biotinylation was most pronounced when tet and biotin were added. When biotin was omitted, streptavidin signal was the lowest regardless of the addition of tet. Compared to the -biotin conditions, a slight increase of streptavidin signal could be observed when biotin was added but tet was not added. This could be either due to the promoter leaking (PMID: 12869186) or traces of tetracycline in the FBS we used, as we did not specifically use tet-free FBS for our experiments.

      Author response image 4.

      Streptavidin-HRP immunoblot following induction of BirA fusion proteins with tetracycline (+tet) and supplementation of biotin (+bio). For the sample used as expression control tetracycline was omitted (-tet). To test background biotinylation, biotin supplementation was omitted (-bio). Immunoblot against BirA and PSMA was used to verify induction of fusion proteins, while GAPDH was used as loading control.

      (3) For the proteasome structure models in Fig. 1D, a scale bar would be useful to inform the reader of the expected 10 nm labelling radius (as the authors have done later, in Fig. 2D).

      We have added 10 nm scale bars to Figure 1d.

      (4) In the "Identification of proteasome substrates by ProteasomeID" Results subsection, I believe there is a typo where the authors refer to ARMC1 instead of ARMC6.

      We have corrected the mistake.

      (5) I think Fig. S5 was one of the most compelling in the manuscript. Given the interest in confirming on-target efficacy of targeted degradation modalities, as well as identifying potential off-target effects early-on in development, I would consider promoting this out of the supplement.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment and share the excitement about using ProteasomeID for targeted degradation screening. We have moved the data on PROTACs (Figure S5) into a new main Figure 5.

      In addition, in relation to the comment of this reviewer regarding the detection of endogenous substrates, we have now included validation for one more hit emerging from our analysis (TIGD5) and included the results in Figure 4f, 4g and S4j.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Summary of reviewers’ comments and our revisions: 

      We thank the reviewers for their thoughtful feedback. This feedback has motivated multiple revisions and additions that, in our view, have greatly improved the manuscript. This is especially true with regard to a major goal of this study: clearly defining existing scientific perspectives and delineating their decoding implications. In addition to building on this conceptual goal, we have expanded existing analyses and have added a new analysis of generalization using a newly collected dataset. We expect the manuscript will be of very broad interest, both to those interested in BCI development and to those interested in fundamental properties of neural population activity and its relationship with behavior.

      Importantly, all reviewers were convinced that MINT provided excellent performance, when benchmarked against existing methods, across a broad range of standard tasks:

      “their method shows impressive performance compared to more traditional decoding approaches” (R1) 

      “The paper was thorough in considering multiple datasets across a variety of behaviors, as well as existing decoding methods, to benchmark the MINT approach. This provided a valuable comparison to validate the method.” (R2) 

      “The fact that performance on stereotyped tasks is high is interesting and informative…” (R3)

      This is important. It is challenging to design a decoder that performs consistently across multiple domains and across multiple situations (including both decoding and neural state estimation). MINT does so. MINT consistently outperformed existing lightweight ‘interpretable’ decoders, despite being a lightweight interpretable decoder itself. MINT was very competitive with expressive machine-learning methods, yet has advantages in flexibility and simplicity that more ‘brute force’ methods do not. We made a great many comparisons, and MINT was consistently a strong performer. Of the many comparisons we made, there was only one where MINT was at a modest disadvantage, and it was for a dataset where all methods performed poorly. No other method we tested was as consistent. For example, although the GRU and the feedforward network were often competitive with MINT (and better than MINT in the one case mentioned above), there were multiple other situations where they performed less well and a few situations where they performed poorly. Moreover, no other existing decoder naturally estimates the neural state while also readily decoding, without retraining, a broad range of behavioral variables.

      R1 and R2 were very positive about the broader impacts of the study. They stressed its impact both on decoder design, and on how our field thinks, scientifically, about the population response in motor areas: 

      “This paper presents an innovative decoding approach for brain-computer interfaces” (R1)

      “presents a substantial shift in methodology, potentially revolutionizing the way BCIs interpret and predict neural behaviour” (R1)

      “the paper's strengths, particularly its emphasis on a trajectory-centric approach and the simplicity of MINT, provide a compelling contribution to the field” (R1)

      “The authors made strong arguments, supported by evidence and literature, for potentially high-dimensional neural states and thus the need for approaches that do not rely on an assumption of low dimensionality” (R2)

      “This work is motivated by brain-computer interfaces applications, which it will surely impact in terms of neural decoder design.” (R2)

      “this work is also broadly impactful for neuroscientific analysis... Thus, MINT will likely impact neuroscience research generally.” (R2)

      We agree with these assessments, and have made multiple revisions to further play into these strengths. As one example, the addition of Figure 1b (and 6b) makes this the first study, to our knowledge, to fully and concretely illustrate this emerging scientific perspective and its decoding implications. This is important, because multiple observations convince us that the field is likely to move away from the traditional perspective in Figure 1a, and towards that in Figure 1b. We also agree with the handful of weaknesses R1 and R2 noted. The manuscript has been revised accordingly. The major weakness noted by R1 was the need to be explicit regarding when we suspect MINT would (and wouldn’t) work well in other brain areas. In non-motor areas, the structure of the data may be poorly matched with MINT’s assumptions. We agree that this is likely to be true, and thus agree with the importance of clarifying this topic for the reader. The revision now does so. R1 also wished to know whether existing methods might benefit from including trial-averaged data during training, something we now explore and document (see detailed responses below). R2 noted two weaknesses: 1) The need to better support (with expanded analysis) the statement that neural and behavioral trajectories are non-isometric, and 2) The need to more rigorously define the ‘mesh’. We agree entirely with both suggestions, and the revision has been strengthened by following them (see detailed responses below).

      R3 also saw strengths to the work, stating that:

      “This paper is well-structured and its main idea is clear.” 

      “The fact that performance on stereotyped tasks is high is interesting and informative, showing that these stereotyped tasks create stereotyped neural trajectories.” 

      “The task-specific comparisons include various measures and a variety of common decoding approaches, which is a strength.”

      However, R3 also expressed two sizable concerns. The first is that MINT might have onerous memory requirements. The manuscript now clarifies that MINT has modest memory requirements. These do not scale unfavorably as the reviewer was concerned they might. The second concern is that MINT is: 

      “essentially a table-lookup rather than a model.”

      Although we don’t agree, the concern makes sense and may be shared by many readers, especially those who take a particular scientific perspective. Pondering this concern thus gave us the opportunity to modify the manuscript in ways that support its broader impact. Our revisions had two goals: 1) clarify the ways in which MINT is far more flexible than a lookup-table, and 2) better describe the dominant scientific perspectives and their decoding implications.

      The heart of R3’s concern is the opinion that MINT is an effective but unprincipled hack suitable for situations where movements are reasonably stereotyped. Of course, many tasks involve stereotyped movements (e.g. handwriting characters), so MINT would still be useful. Nevertheless, if MINT is not principled, other decode methods would often be preferable because they could (unlike MINT in R3’s opinion) gain flexibility by leveraging an accurate model. Most of R3’s comments flow from this fundamental concern: 

      “This is again due to MINT being a lookup table with a library of stereotyped trajectories rather than a model.”

      “MINT models task-dependent neural trajectories, so the trained decoder is very task-dependent and cannot generalize to other tasks.”

      “Unlike MINT, these works can achieve generalization because they model the neural subspace and its association to movement.”

      “given that MINT tabulates task-specific trajectories, it will not generalize to tasks that are not seen in the training data even when these tasks cover the exact same space (e.g., the same 2D computer screen and associated neural space).”

      “For proper training, the training data should explore the whole movement space and the associated neural space, but this does not mean all kinds of tasks performed in that space must be included in the training set (something MINT likely needs while modeling-based approaches do not).”

      The manuscript has been revised to clarify that MINT is considerably more flexible than a lookup table, even though a lookup table is used as a first step. Yet, on its own, this does not fully address R3’s concern. The quotes above highlight that R3 is making a standard assumption in our field: that there exists a “movement space and associated neural space”. Under this perspective, one should, as R3 argues fully explore the movement space. This would perforce fully explore the associated neural subspace. One can then “model the neural subspace and its association to movement”. MINT does not use a model of this type, and thus (from R3’s perspective) does not appear to use a model at all. A major goal of our study is to question this traditional perspective. We have thus added a new figure to highlight the contrast between the traditional (Figure 1a) and new (Figure 1b) scientific perspectives, and to clarify their decoding implications.

      While we favor the new perspective (Figure 1b), we concede that R3 may not share our view. This is fine. Part of the reason we believe this study is timely, and will be broadly read, is that it raises a topic of emerging interest where there is definitely room for debate. If we are misguided – i.e. if Figure 1a is the correct perspective – then many of R3’s concerns would be on target: MINT could still be useful, but traditional methods that make the traditional assumptions in Figure 1a would often be preferable. However, if the emerging perspective in Figure 1b is more accurate, then MINT’s assumptions would be better aligned with the data than those of traditional methods, making it a more (not less) principled choice.

      Our study provides new evidence in support of Figure 1b, while also synthesizing existing evidence from other recent studies. In addition to Figure 2, the new analysis of generalization further supports Figure 1b. Also supporting Figure 1b is the analysis in which MINT’s decoding advantage, over a traditional decoder, disappears when simulated data approximate the traditional perspective in Figure 1a.

      That said, we agree that the present study cannot fully resolve whether Figure 1a or 1b is more accurate. Doing so will take multiple studies with different approaches (indeed we are currently preparing other manuscripts on this topic). Yet we still have an informed scientific opinion, derived from past, present and yet-to-be-published observations. Our opinion is that Figure 1b is the more accurate perspective. This possibility makes it reasonable to explore the potential virtues of a decoding method whose assumptions are well-aligned with that perspective. MINT is such a method. As expected under Figure 1b, MINT outperforms traditional interpretable decoders in every single case we studied. 

      As noted above, we have added a new generalization-focused analysis (Figure 6) based on a newly collected dataset. We did so because R3’s comments highlight a deep point: which scientific perspective one takes has strong implications regarding decoder generalization. These implications are now illustrated in the new Figure 6a and 6b. Under Figure 6a, it is possible, as R3 suggests, to explore “the whole movement space and associated neural space” during training. However, under Figure 6b, expectations are very different. Generalization will be ‘easy’ when new trajectories are near the training-set trajectories. In this case, MINT should generalize well as should other methods. In contrast, generalization will be ‘hard’ when new neural trajectories have novel shapes and occupy previously unseen regions / dimensions. In this case, all current methods, including MINT, are likely to fail. R3 points out that traditional decoders have sometimes generalized well to new tasks (e.g. from center-out to ‘pinball’) when cursor movements occur in the same physical workspace. These findings could be taken to support Figure 6a, but are equally consistent with ‘easy’ generalization in Figure 6b. To explore this topic, the new analysis in Figure 6c-g considers conditions that are intended to span the range from easy to hard. Results are consistent with the predictions of Figure 6b. 

      We believe the manuscript has been significantly improved by these additions. The revisions help the manuscript achieve its twin goals: 1) introduce a novel class of decoder that performs very well despite being very simple, and 2) describe properties of motor-cortex activity that will matter for decoders of all varieties.

      Reviewer #1: 

      Summary: 

      This paper presents an innovative decoding approach for brain-computer interfaces (BCIs), introducing a new method named MINT. The authors develop a trajectory-centric approach to decode behaviors across several different datasets, including eight empirical datasets from the Neural Latents Benchmark. Overall, the paper is well written and their method shows impressive performance compared to more traditional decoding approaches that use a simpler approach. While there are some concerns (see below), the paper's strengths, particularly its emphasis on a trajectory-centric approach and the simplicity of MINT, provide a compelling contribution to the field. 

      We thank the reviewer for these comments. We share their enthusiasm for the trajectory-centric approach, and we are in complete agreement that this perspective has both scientific and decoding implications. The revision expands upon these strengths.

      Strengths: 

      The adoption of a trajectory-centric approach that utilizes statistical constraints presents a substantial shift in methodology, potentially revolutionizing the way BCIs interpret and predict neural behaviour. This is one of the strongest aspects of the paper. 

      Again, thank you. We also expect the trajectory-centric perspective to have a broad impact, given its relevance to both decoding and to thinking about manifolds.

      The thorough evaluation of the method across various datasets serves as an assurance that the superior performance of MINT is not a result of overfitting. The comparative simplicity of the method in contrast to many neural network approaches is refreshing and should facilitate broader applicability. 

      Thank you. We were similarly pleased to see such a simple method perform so well. We also agree that, while neural-network approaches will always be important, it is desirable to also possess simple ‘interpretable’ alternatives.

      Weaknesses:  

      Comment 1) Scope: Despite the impressive performance of MINT across multiple datasets, it seems predominantly applicable to M1/S1 data. Only one of the eight empirical datasets comes from an area outside the motor/somatosensory cortex. It would be beneficial if the authors could expand further on how the method might perform with other brain regions that do not exhibit low tangling or do not have a clear trial structure (e.g. decoding of position or head direction from hippocampus) 

      We agree entirely. Population activity in many brain areas (especially outside the motor system) presumably will often not have the properties upon which MINT’s assumptions are built. This doesn’t necessarily mean that MINT would perform badly. Using simulated data, we have found that MINT can perform surprisingly well even when some of its assumptions are violated. Yet at the same time, when MINT’s assumptions don’t apply, one would likely prefer to use other methods. This is, after all, one of the broader themes of the present study: it is beneficial to match decoding assumptions to empirical properties. We have thus added a section on this topic early in the Discussion: 

      “In contrast, MINT and the Kalman filter performed comparably on simulated data that better approximated the assumptions in Figure 1a. Thus, MINT is not a ‘better’ algorithm – simply better aligned with the empirical properties of motor cortex data. This highlights an important caveat. Although MINT performs well when decoding from motor areas, its assumptions may be a poor match in other areas (e.g. the hippocampus). MINT performed well on two non-motor-cortex datasets – Area2_Bump (S1) and DMFC_RSG (dorsomedial frontal cortex) – yet there will presumably be other brain areas and/or contexts where one would prefer a different method that makes assumptions appropriate for that area.”

      Comment 2) When comparing methods, the neural trajectories of MINT are based on averaged trials, while the comparison methods are trained on single trials. An additional analysis might help in disentangling the effect of the trial averaging. For this, the authors could average the input across trials for all decoders, establishing a baseline for averaged trials. Note that inference should still be done on single trials. Performance can then be visualized across different values of N, which denotes the number of averaged trials used for training. 

      We explored this question and found that the non-MINT decoders are harmed, not helped, by the inclusion of trial-averaged responses in the training set. This is presumably because the statistics of trialaveraged responses don’t resemble what will be observed during decoding. This statistical mismatch, between training and decoding, hurts most methods. It doesn’t hurt MINT, because MINT doesn’t ‘train’ in the normal way. It simply needs to know rates, and trial-averaging is a natural way to obtain them. To describe the new analysis, we have added the following to the text.

      “We also investigated the possibility that MINT gained its performance advantage simply by having access to trial-averaged neural trajectories during training, while all other methods were trained on single-trial data. This difference arises from the fundamental requirements of the decoder architectures: MINT needs to estimate typical trajectories while other methods don’t. Yet it might still be the case that other methods would benefit from including trial-averaged data in the training set, in addition to single-trial data. Alternatively, this might harm performance by creating a mismatch, between training and decoding, in the statistics of decoder inputs. We found that the latter was indeed the case: all non-MINT methods performed better when trained purely on single-trial data.”

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary: 

      The goal of this paper is to present a new method, termed MINT, for decoding behavioral states from neural spiking data. MINT is a statistical method which, in addition to outputting a decoded behavioral state, also provides soft information regarding the likelihood of that behavioral state based on the neural data. The innovation in this approach is neural states are assumed to come from sparsely distributed neural trajectories with low tangling, meaning that neural trajectories (time sequences of neural states) are sparse in the high-dimensional space of neural spiking activity and that two dissimilar neural trajectories tend to correspond to dissimilar behavioral trajectories. The authors support these assumptions through analysis of previously collected data, and then validate the performance of their method by comparing it to a suite of alternative approaches. The authors attribute the typically improved decoding performance by MINT to its assumptions being more faithfully aligned to the properties of neural spiking data relative to assumptions made by the alternatives. 

      We thank the reviewer for this accurate summary, and for highlighting the subtle but important fact that MINT provides information regarding likelihoods. The revision includes a new analysis (Figure 6e) illustrating one potential way to leverage knowledge of likelihoods.

      Strengths:  

      The paper did an excellent job critically evaluating common assumptions made by neural analytical methods, such as neural state being low-dimensional relative to the number of recorded neurons. The authors made strong arguments, supported by evidence and literature, for potentially high-dimensional neural states and thus the need for approaches that do not rely on an assumption of low dimensionality. 

      Thank you. We also hope that the shift in perspective is the most important contribution of the study. This shift matters both scientifically and for decoder design. The revision expands on this strength. The scientific alternatives are now more clearly and concretely illustrated (especially see Figure 1a,b and Figure 6a,b). We also further explore their decoding implications with new data (Figure 6c-g).

      The paper was thorough in considering multiple datasets across a variety of behaviors, as well as existing decoding methods, to benchmark the MINT approach. This provided a valuable comparison to validate the method. The authors also provided nice intuition regarding why MINT may offer performance improvement in some cases and in which instances MINT may not perform as well. 

      Thank you. We were pleased to be able to provide comparisons across so many datasets (we are grateful to the Neural Latents Benchmark for making this possible).

      In addition to providing a philosophical discussion as to the advantages of MINT and benchmarking against alternatives, the authors also provided a detailed description of practical considerations. This included training time, amount of training data, robustness to data loss or changes in the data, and interpretability. These considerations not only provided objective evaluation of practical aspects but also provided insights to the flexibility and robustness of the method as they relate back to the underlying assumptions and construction of the approach. 

      Thank you. We are glad that these sections were appreciated. MINT’s simplicity and interpretability are indeed helpful in multiple ways, and afford opportunities for interesting future extensions. One potential benefit of interpretability is now explored in the newly added Figure 6e. 

      Impact: 

      This work is motivated by brain-computer interfaces applications, which it will surely impact in terms of neural decoder design. However, this work is also broadly impactful for neuroscientific analysis to relate neural spiking activity to observable behavioral features. Thus, MINT will likely impact neuroscience research generally. The methods are made publicly available, and the datasets used are all in public repositories, which facilitates adoption and validation of this method within the greater scientific community. 

      Again, thank you. We have similar hopes for this study.

      Weaknesses (1 & 2 are related, and we have switched their order in addressing them): 

      Comment 2) With regards to the idea of neural and behavioral trajectories having different geometries, this is dependent on what behavioral variables are selected. In the example for Fig 2a, the behavior is reach position. The geometry of the behavioral trajectory of interest would look different if instead the behavior of interest was reach velocity. The paper would be strengthened by acknowledgement that geometries of trajectories are shaped by extrinsic choices rather than (or as much as they are) intrinsic properties of the data. 

      We agree. Indeed, we almost added a section to the original manuscript on this exact topic. We have now done so:

      “A potential concern regarding the analyses in Figure 2c,d is that they require explicit choices of behavioral variables: muscle population activity in Figure 2c and angular phase and velocity in Figure 2d. Perhaps these choices were misguided. Might neural and behavioral geometries become similar if one chooses ‘the right’ set of behavioral variables? This concern relates to the venerable search for movement parameters that are reliably encoded by motor cortex activity [69, 92–95]. If one chooses the wrong set of parameters (e.g. chooses muscle activity when one should have chosen joint angles) then of course neural and behavioral geometries will appear non-isometric. There are two reasons why this ‘wrong parameter choice’ explanation is unlikely to account for the results in Figure 2c,d. First, consider the implications of the left-hand side of Figure 2d. A small kinematic distance implies that angular position and velocity are nearly identical for the two moments being compared. Yet the corresponding pair of neural states can be quite distant. Under the concern above, this distance would be due to other encoded behavioral variables – perhaps joint angle and joint velocity – differing between those two moments. However, there are not enough degrees of freedom in this task to make this plausible. The shoulder remains at a fixed position (because the head is fixed) and the wrist has limited mobility due to the pedal design [60]. Thus, shoulder and elbow angles are almost completely determined by cycle phase. More generally, ‘external variables’ (positions, angles, and their derivatives) are unlikely to differ more than slightly when phase and angular velocity are matched. Muscle activity could be different because many muscles act on each joint, creating redundancy. However, as illustrated in Figure 2c, the key effect is just as clear when analyzing muscle activity. Thus, the above concern seems unlikely even if it can’t be ruled out entirely. A broader reason to doubt the ‘wrong parameter choice’ proposition is that it provides a vague explanation for a phenomenon that already has a straightforward explanation. A lack of isometry between the neural population response and behavior is expected when neural-trajectory tangling is low and output-null factors are plentiful [55, 60]. For example, in networks that generate muscle activity, neural and muscle-activity trajectories are far from isometric [52, 58, 60]. Given this straightforward explanation, and given repeated failures over decades to find the ‘correct’ parameters (muscle activity, movement direction, etc.) that create neural-behavior isometry, it seems reasonable to conclude that no such isometry exists.”

      Comment 1) The authors posit that neural and behavioral trajectories are non-isometric. To support this point, they look at distances between neural states and distances between the corresponding behavioral states, in order to demonstrate that there are differences in these distances in each respective space. This supports the idea that neural states and behavioral states are non-isometric but does not directly address their point. In order to say the trajectories are non-isometric, it would be better to look at pairs of distances between corresponding trajectories in each space. 

      We like this idea and have added such an analysis. To be clear, we like the original analysis too: isometry predicts that neural and behavioral distances (for corresponding pairs of points) should be strongly correlated, and that small behavioral distances should not be associated with large neural distances. These predictions are not true, providing a strong argument against isometry. However, we also like the reviewer’s suggestion, and have added such an analysis. It makes the same larger point, and also reveals some additional facts (e.g. it reveals that muscle-geometry is more related to neural-geometry than is kinematic-geometry). The new analysis is described in the following section:

      “We further explored the topic of isometry by considering pairs of distances. To do so, we chose two random neural states and computed their distance, yielding dneural1. We repeated this process, yielding dneural2. We then computed the corresponding pair of distances in muscle space (dmuscle1 and dmuscle2) and kinematic space (dkin1 and dkin2). We considered cases where dneural1 was meaningfully larger than (or smaller than) dneural2, and asked whether the behavioral variables had the same relationship; e.g. was dmuscle1 also larger than dmuscle2? For kinematics, this relationship was weak: across 100,000 comparisons, the sign of dkin1 − dkin2 agreed with dneural1 − dneural2 only 67.3% of the time (with 50% being chance). The relationship was much stronger for muscles: the sign of dmuscle1 − dmuscle2 agreed with dneural1 − dneural2 79.2% of the time, which is far more than expected by chance yet also far from what is expected given isometry (e.g. the sign agrees 99.7% of the time for the truly isometric control data in Figure 2e). Indeed there were multiple moments during this task when dneural1 was much larger than dneural2, yet dmuscle1 was smaller than dmuscle2. These observations are consistent with the proposal that neural trajectories resemble muscle trajectories in some dimensions, but with additional output-null dimensions that break the isometry [60].”

      Comment 3) The approach is built up on the idea of creating a "mesh" structure of possible states. In the body of the paper the definition of the mesh was not entirely clear and I could not find in the methods a more rigorous explicit definition. Since the mesh is integral to the approach, the paper would be improved with more description of this component. 

      This is a fair criticism. Although MINTs actual operations were well-documented, how those operations mapped onto the term ‘mesh’ was, we agree, a bit vague. The definition of the mesh is a bit subtle because it only emerges during decoding rather than being precomputed. This is part of what gives MINT much more flexibility than a lookup table. We have added the following to the manuscript.

      “We use the term ‘mesh’ to describe the scaffolding created by the training-set trajectories and the interpolated states that arise at runtime. The term mesh is apt because, if MINT’s assumptions are correct, interpolation will almost always be local. If so, the set of decodable states will resemble a mesh, created by line segments connecting nearby training-set trajectories. However, this mesh-like structure is not enforced by MINT’s operations.

      Interpolation could, in principle, create state-distributions that depart from the assumption of a sparse manifold. For example, interpolation could fill in the center of the green tube in Figure 1b, resulting in a solid manifold rather than a mesh around its outer surface. However, this would occur only if spiking observations argued for it. As will be documented below, we find that essentially all interpolation is local”

      We have also added Figure 4d. This new analysis documents the fact that decoded states are near trainingset trajectories, which is why the term ‘mesh’ is appropriate.

      Reviewer #3:

      Summary:  

      This manuscript develops a new method termed MINT for decoding of behavior. The method is essentially a table-lookup rather than a model. Within a given stereotyped task, MINT tabulates averaged firing rate trajectories of neurons (neural states) and corresponding averaged behavioral trajectories as stereotypes to construct a library. For a test trial with a realized neural trajectory, it then finds the closest neural trajectory to it in the table and declares the associated behavior trajectory in the table as the decoded behavior. The method can also interpolate between these tabulated trajectories. The authors mention that the method is based on three key assumptions: (1) Neural states may not be embedded in a lowdimensional subspace, but rather in a high-dimensional space. (2) Neural trajectories are sparsely distributed under different behavioral conditions. (3) These neural states traverse trajectories in a stereotyped order.  

      The authors conducted multiple analyses to validate MINT, demonstrating its decoding of behavioral trajectories in simulations and datasets (Figures 3, 4). The main behavior decoding comparison is shown in Figure 4. In stereotyped tasks, decoding performance is comparable (M_Cycle, MC_Maze) or better (Area 2_Bump) than other linear/nonlinear algorithms

      (Figure 4). However, MINT underperforms for the MC_RTT task, which is less stereotyped (Figure 4).  

      This paper is well-structured and its main idea is clear. The fact that performance on stereotyped tasks is high is interesting and informative, showing that these stereotyped tasks create stereotyped neural trajectories. The task-specific comparisons include various measures and a variety of common decoding approaches, which is a strength. However, I have several major concerns. I believe several of the conclusions in the paper, which are also emphasized in the abstract, are not accurate or supported, especially about generalization, computational scalability, and utility for BCIs. MINT is essentially a table-lookup algorithm based on stereotyped task-dependent trajectories and involves the tabulation of extensive data to build a vast library without modeling. These aspects will limit MINT's utility for real-world BCIs and tasks. These properties will also limit MINT's generalizability from task to task, which is important for BCIs and thus is commonly demonstrated in BCI experiments with other decoders without any retraining. Furthermore, MINT's computational and memory requirements can be prohibitive it seems. Finally, as MINT is based on tabulating data without learning models of data, I am unclear how it will be useful in basic investigations of neural computations. I expand on these concerns below.  

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out weaknesses in our framing and presentation. The comments above made us realize that we needed to 1) better document the ways in which MINT is far more flexible than a lookup-table, and 2) better explain the competing scientific perspectives at play. R3’s comments also motivated us to add an additional analysis of generalization. In our view the manuscript is greatly improved by these additions. Specifically, these additions directly support the broader impact that we hope the study will have.

      For simplicity and readability, we first group and summarize R3’s main concerns in order to better address them. (These main concerns are all raised above, in addition to recurring in the specific comments below. Responses to each individual specific comment are provided after these summaries.)

      (1) R3 raises concerns about ‘computational scalability.’ The concern is that “MINT's computational and memory requirements can be prohibitive.” This point was expanded upon in a specific comment, reproduced below:

      I also find the statement in the abstract and paper that "computations are simple, scalable" to be inaccurate. The authors state that MINT's computational cost is O(NC) only, but it seems this is achieved at a high memory cost as well as computational cost in training. The process is described in section "Lookup table of log-likelihoods" on line [978-990]. The idea is to precompute the log-likelihoods for any combination of all neurons with discretization x all delay/history segments x all conditions and to build a large lookup table for decoding. Basically, the computational cost of precomputing this table is O(V^{Nτ} x TC) and the table requires a memory of O(V^{Nτ}), where V is the number of discretization points for the neural firing rates, N is the number of neurons, τ is the history length, T is the trial length, and C is the number of conditions. This is a very large burden, especially the V^{Nτ} term. This cost is currently not mentioned in the manuscript and should be clarified in the main text. Accordingly, computation claims should be modified including in the abstract.

      The revised manuscript clarifies that our statement (that computations are simple and scalable) is absolutely accurate. There is no need to compute, or store, a massive lookup table. There are three tables: two of modest size and one that is tiny. This is now better explained:

      “Thus, the log-likelihood of , for a particular current neural state, is simply the sum of many individual log-likelihoods (one per neuron and time-bin). Each individual log-likelihood depends on only two numbers: the firing rate at that moment and the spike count in that bin. To simplify online computation, one can precompute the log-likelihood, under a Poisson model, for every plausible combination of rate and spike-count. For example, a lookup table of size 2001 × 21 is sufficient when considering rates that span 0-200 spikes/s in increments of 0.1 spikes/s, and considering 20 ms bins that contain at most 20 spikes (only one lookup table is ever needed, so long as its firing-rate range exceeds that of the most-active neuron at the most active moment in Ω). Now suppose we are observing a population of 200 neurons, with a 200 ms history divided into ten 20 ms bins. For each library state, the log-likelihood of the observed spike-counts is simply the sum of 200 × 10 = 2000 individual loglikelihoods, each retrieved from the lookup table. In practice, computation is even simpler because many terms can be reused from the last time bin using a recursive solution (Methods). This procedure is lightweight and amenable to real-time applications.”

      In summary, the first table simply needs to contain the firing rate of each neuron, for each condition, and each time in that condition. This table consumes relatively little memory. Assuming 100 one-second-long conditions (rates sampled every 20 ms) and 200 neurons, the table would contain 100 x 50 x 200 = 1,000,000 numbers. These numbers are typically stored as 16-bit integers (because rates are quantized), which amounts to about 2 MB. This is modest, given that most computers have (at least) tens of GB of RAM. A second table would contain the values for each behavioral variable, for each condition, and each time in that condition. This table might contain behavioral variables at a finer resolution (e.g. every millisecond) to enable decoding to update in between 20 ms bins (1 ms granularity is not needed for most BCI applications, but is the resolution used in this study). The number of behavioral variables of interest for a particular BCI application is likely to be small, often 1-2, but let’s assume for this example it is 10 (e.g. x-, y-, and z-position, velocity, and acceleration of a limb, plus one other variable). This table would thus contain 100 x 1000 x 10 = 1,000,000 floating point numbers, i.e. an 8 MB table. The third table is used to store the probability of s spikes being observed given a particular quantized firing rate (e.g. it may contain probabilities associated with firing rates ranging from 0 – 200 spikes/s in 0.1 spikes/s increments). This table is not necessary, but saves some computation time by precomputing numbers that will be used repeatedly. This is a very small table (typically ~2000 x 20, i.e. 320 KB). It does not need to be repeated for different neurons or conditions, because Poisson probabilities depend on only rate and count.

      (2) R3 raises a concern that MINT “is essentially a table-lookup rather than a model.’ R3 states that MINT 

      “is essentially a table-lookup algorithm based on stereotyped task-dependent trajectories and involves the tabulation of extensive data to build a vast library without modeling.”

      and that,

      “as MINT is based on tabulating data without learning models of data, I am unclear how it will be useful in basic investigations of neural computations.”

      This concern is central to most subsequent concerns. The manuscript has been heavily revised to address it. The revisions clarify that MINT is much more flexible than a lookup table, even though MINT uses a lookup table as its first step. Because R3’s concern is intertwined with one’s scientific assumptions, we have also added the new Figure 1 to explicitly illustrate the two key scientific perspectives and their decoding implications. 

      Under the perspective in Figure 1a, R3 would be correct in saying that there exist traditional interpretable decoders (e.g. a Kalman filter) whose assumptions better model the data. Under this perspective, MINT might still be an excellent choice in many cases, but other methods would be expected to gain the advantage when situations demand more flexibility. This is R3’s central concern, and essentially all other concerns flow from it. It makes sense that R3 has this concern, because their comments repeatedly stress a foundational assumption of the perspective in Figure 1a: the assumption of a fixed lowdimensional neural subspace where activity has a reliable relationship to behavior that can be modeled and leveraged during decoding. The phrases below accord with that view:

      “Unlike MINT, these works can achieve generalization because they model the neural subspace and its association to movement.”

      “it will not generalize… even when these tasks cover the exact same space (e.g., the same 2D computer screen and associated neural space).”

      “For proper training, the training data should explore the whole movement space and the associated neural space”

      “I also believe the authors should clarify the logic behind developing MINT better. From a scientific standpoint, we seek to gain insights into neural computations by making various assumptions and building models that parsimoniously describe the vast amount of neural data rather than simply tabulating the data. For instance, low-dimensional assumptions have led to the development of numerous dimensionality reduction algorithms and these models have led to important interpretations about the underlying dynamics”

      Thus, R3 prefers a model that 1) assumes a low-dimensional subspace that is fixed across tasks and 2) assumes a consistent ‘association’ between neural activity and kinematics. Because R3 believes this is the correct model of the data, they believe that decoders should leverage it. Traditional interpretable method do, and MINT doesn’t, which is why they find MINT to be unprincipled. This is a reasonable view, but it is not our view. We have heavily revised the manuscript to clarify that a major goal of our study is to explore the implications of a different, less-traditional scientific perspective.

      The new Figure 1a illustrates the traditional perspective. Under this perspective, one would agree with R3’s claim that other methods have the opportunity to model the data better. For example, suppose there exists a consistent neural subspace – conserved across tasks – where three neural dimensions encode 3D hand position and three additional neural dimensions encode 3D hand velocity. A traditional method such as a Kalman filter would be a very appropriate choice to model these aspects of the data.

      Figure 1b illustrates the alternative scientific perspective. This perspective arises from recent, present, and to-be-published observations. MINT’s assumptions are well-aligned with this perspective. In contrast, the assumptions of traditional methods (e.g. the Kalman filter) are not well-aligned with the properties of the data under this perspective. This does not mean traditional methods are not useful. Yet under Figure 1b, it is traditional methods, such as the Kalman filter, that lack an accurate model of the data. Of course, the reviewer may disagree with our scientific perspective. We would certainly concede that there is room for debate. However, we find the evidence for Figure 1b to be sufficiently strong that it is worth exploring the utility of methods that align with this scientific perspective. MINT is such a method. As we document, it performs very well.

      Thus, in our view, MINT is quite principled because its assumptions are well aligned with the data. It is true that the features of the data that MINT models are a bit different from those that are traditionally modeled. For example, R3 is quite correct that MINT does not attempt to use a biomimetic model of the true transformation from neural activity, to muscle activity, and thence to kinematics. We see this as a strength, and the manuscript has been revised accordingly (see paragraph beginning with “We leveraged this simulated data to compare MINT with a biomimetic decoder”).

      (3) R3 raises concerns that MINT cannot generalize. This was a major concern of R3 and is intimately related to concern #2 above. The concern is that, if MINT is “essentially a lookup table” that simply selects pre-defined trajectories, then MINT will not be able to generalize. R3 is quite correct that MINT generalizes rather differently than existing methods. Whether this is good or bad depends on one’s scientific perspective. Under Figure 1a, MINT’s generalization would indeed be limiting because other methods could achieve greater flexibility. Under Figure 1b, all methods will have serious limits regarding generalization. Thus, MINT’s method for generalizing may approximate the best one can presently do. To address this concern, we have made three major changes, numbered i-iii below:

      i) Large sections of the manuscript have been restructured to underscore the ways in which MINT can generalize. A major goal was to counter the impression, stated by R3 above, that: 

      “for a test trial with a realized neural trajectory, [MINT] then finds the closest neural trajectory to it in the table and declares the associated behavior trajectory in the table as the decoded behavior”.

      This description is a reasonable way to initially understand how MINT works, and we concede that we may have over-used this intuition. Unfortunately, it can leave the misimpression that MINT decodes by selecting whole trajectories, each corresponding to ‘a behavior’. This can happen, but it needn’t and typically doesn’t. As an example, consider the cycling task. Suppose that the library consists of stereotyped trajectories, each four cycles long, at five fixed speeds from 0.5-2.5 Hz. If the spiking observations argued for it, MINT could decode something close to one of these five stereotyped trajectories. Yet it needn’t. Decoded trajectories will typically resemble library trajectories locally, but may be very different globally. For example, a decoded trajectory could be thirty cycles long (or two, or five hundred) perhaps speeding up and slowing down multiple times across those cycles.

      Thus, the library of trajectories shouldn’t be thought of as specifying a limited set of whole movements that can be ‘selected from’. Rather, trajectories define a scaffolding that outlines where the neural state is likely to live and how it is likely to be changing over time. When we introduce the idea of library trajectories, we are now careful to stress that they don’t function as a set from which one trajectory is ‘declared’ to be the right one:

      “We thus designed MINT to approximate that manifold using the trajectories themselves, rather than their covariance matrix or corresponding subspace. Unlike a covariance matrix, neural trajectories indicate not only which states are likely, but also which state-derivatives are likely. If a neural state is near previously observed states, it should be moving in a similar direction. MINT leverages this directionality.

      Training-set trajectories can take various forms, depending on what is convenient to collect. Most simply, training data might include one trajectory per condition, with each condition corresponding to a discrete movement. Alternatively, one might instead employ one long trajectory spanning many movements. Another option is to employ many sub-trajectories, each briefer than a whole movement. The goal is simply for training-set trajectories to act as a scaffolding, outlining the manifold that might be occupied during decoding and the directions in which decoded trajectories are likely to be traveling.”

      Later in that same section we stress that decoded trajectories can move along the ‘mesh’ in nonstereotyped ways:

      “Although the mesh is formed of stereotyped trajectories, decoded trajectories can move along the mesh in non-stereotyped ways as long as they generally obey the flow-field implied by the training data. This flexibility supports many types of generalization, including generalization that is compositional in nature. Other types of generalization – e.g. from the green trajectories to the orange trajectories in Figure 1b – are unavailable when using MINT and are expected to be challenging for any method (as will be documented in a later section).”

      The section “Training and decoding using MINT” has been revised to clarify the ways in which interpolation is flexible, allowing decoded movements to be globally very different from any library trajectory.

      “To decode stereotyped trajectories, one could simply obtain the maximum-likelihood neural state from the library, then render a behavioral decode based on the behavioral state with the same values of c and k. This would be appropriate for applications in which conditions are categorical, such as typing or handwriting. Yet in most cases we wish for the trajectory library to serve not as an exhaustive set of possible states, but as a scaffolding for the mesh of possible states. MINT’s operations are thus designed to estimate any neural trajectory – and any corresponding behavioral trajectory – that moves along the mesh in a manner generally consistent with the trajectories in Ω.”

      “…interpolation allows considerable flexibility. Not only is one not ‘stuck’ on a trajectory from Φ, one is also not stuck on trajectories created by weighted averaging of trajectories in Φ. For example, if cycling speed increases, the decoded neural state could move steadily up a scaffolding like that illustrated in Figure 1b (green). In such cases, the decoded trajectory might be very different in duration from any of the library trajectories. Thus, one should not think of the library as a set of possible trajectories that are selected from, but rather as providing a mesh-like scaffolding that defines where future neural states are likely to live and the likely direction of their local motion. The decoded trajectory may differ considerably from any trajectory within Ω.”

      This flexibility is indeed used during movement. One empirical example is described in detail:

      “During movement… angular phase was decoded with effectively no net drift over time. This is noteworthy because angular velocity on test trials never perfectly matched any of the trajectories in Φ. Thus, if decoding were restricted to a library trajectory, one would expect growing phase discrepancies. Yet decoded trajectories only need to locally (and approximately) follow the flow-field defined by the library trajectories. Based on incoming spiking observations, decoded trajectories speed up or slow down (within limits).

      This decoding flexibility presumably relates to the fact that the decoded neural state is allowed to differ from the nearest state in Ω. To explore… [the text goes on to describe the new analysis in Figure 4d, which shows that the decoded state is typically not on any trajectory, though it is typically close to a trajectory].”

      Thus, MINT’s operations allow considerable flexibility, including generalization that is compositional in nature. Yet R3 is still correct that there are other forms of generalization that are unavailable to MINT. This is now stressed at multiple points in the revision. However, under the perspective in Figure 1b, these forms of generalization are unavailable to any current method. Hence we made a second major change in response to this concern…  ii) We explicitly illustrate how the structure of the data determines when generalization is or isn’t possible. The new Figure 1a,b introduces the two perspectives, and the new Figure 6a,b lays out their implications for generalization. Under the perspective in Figure 6a, the reviewer is quite right: other methods can generalize in ways that MINT cannot. Under the perspective in Figure 6b, expectations are very different. Those expectations make testable predictions. Hence the third major change… iii) We have added an analysis of generalization, using a newly collected dataset. This dataset was collected using Neuropixels Probes during our Pac-Man force-tracking task. This dataset was chosen because it is unusually well-suited to distinguishing the predictions in Figure 6a versus Figure 6b. Finding a dataset that can do so is not simple. Consider R3’s point that training data should “explore the whole movement space and the associated neural space”. The physical simplicity of the Pac-Man task makes it unusually easy to confirm that the behavioral workspace has been fully explored. Importantly, under Figure 6b, this does not mean that the neural workspace has been fully explored, which is exactly what we wish to test when testing generalization. We do so, and compare MINT with a Wiener filter. A Wiener filter is an ideal comparison because it is simple, performs very well on this task, and should be able to generalize well under Figure 1a. Additionally, the Wiener filter (unlike the Kalman Filter) doesn’t leverage the assumption that neural activity reflects the derivative of force. This matters because we find that neural activity does not reflect dforce/dt in this task. The Wiener filter is thus the most natural choice of the interpretable methods whose assumptions match Figure 1a.

      The new analysis is described in Figure 6c-g and accompanying text. Results are consistent with the predictions of Figure 6b. We are pleased to have been motivated to add this analysis for two reasons. First, it provides an additional way of evaluating the predictions of the two competing scientific perspectives that are at the heart of our study. Second, this analysis illustrates an underappreciated way in which generalization is likely to be challenging for any decode method. It can be tempting to think that the main challenge regarding generalization is to fully explore the relevant behavioral space. This makes sense if a behavioral space has “an associated neural space”. However, we are increasingly of the opinion that it doesn’t. Different tasks often involve different neural subspaces, even when behavioral subspaces overlap. We have even seen situations where motor output is identical but neural subspaces are quite different. These facts are relevant to any decoder, something highlighted in the revised Introduction:

      “MINT’s performance confirms that there are gains to be made by building decoders whose assumptions match a different, possibly more accurate view of population activity. At the same time, our results suggest fundamental limits on decoder generalization. Under the assumptions in Figure 1b, it will sometimes be difficult or impossible for decoders to generalize to not-yet-seen tasks. We found that this was true regardless of whether one uses MINT or a more traditional method. This finding has implications regarding when and how generalization should be attempted.”

      We have also added an analysis (Figure 6e) illustrating how MINT’s ability to compute likelihoods can be useful in detecting situations that may strain generalization (for any method). MINT is unusual in being able to compute and use likelihoods in this way.

      Detailed responses to R3: we reproduce each of R3’s specific concerns below, but concentrate our responses on issues not already covered above.

      Main comments: 

      Comment 1. MINT does not generalize to different tasks, which is a main limitation for BCI utility compared with prior BCI decoders that have shown this generalizability as I review below. Specifically, given that MINT tabulates task-specific trajectories, it will not generalize to tasks that are not seen in the training data even when these tasks cover the exact same space (e.g., the same 2D computer screen and associated neural space). 

      First, the authors provide a section on generalization, which is inaccurate because it mixes up two fundamentally different concepts: 1) collecting informative training data and 2) generalizing from task to task. The former is critical for any algorithm, but it does not imply the latter. For example, removing one direction of cycling from the training set as the authors do here is an example of generating poor training data because the two behavioral (and neural) directions are non-overlapping and/or orthogonal while being in the same space. As such, it is fully expected that all methods will fail. For proper training, the training data should explore the whole movement space and the associated neural space, but this does not mean all kinds of tasks performed in that space must be included in the training set (something MINT likely needs while modeling-based approaches do not). Many BCI studies have indeed shown this generalization ability using a model. For example, in Weiss et al. 2019, center-out reaching tasks are used for training and then the same trained decoder is used for typing on a keyboard or drawing on the 2D screen. In Gilja et al. 2012, training is on a center-out task but the same trained decoder generalizes to a completely different pinball task (hit four consecutive targets) and tasks requiring the avoidance of obstacles and curved movements. There are many more BCI studies, such as Jarosiewicz et al. 2015 that also show generalization to complex realworld tasks not included in the training set. Unlike MINT, these works can achieve generalization because they model the neural subspace and its association to movement. On the contrary, MINT models task-dependent neural trajectories, so the trained decoder is very task-dependent and cannot generalize to other tasks. So, unlike these prior BCIs methods, MINT will likely actually need to include every task in its library, which is not practical. 

      I suggest the authors remove claims of generalization and modify their arguments throughout the text and abstract. The generalization section needs to be substantially edited to clarify the above points. Please also provide the BCI citations and discuss the above limitation of MINT for BCIs. 

      As discussed above, R3’s concerns are accurate under the view in Figure 1a (and the corresponding Figure 6a). Under this view, a method such as that in Gilja et al. or Jarosiewicz et al. can find the correct subspace, model the correct neuron-behavior correlations, and generalize to any task that uses “the same 2D computer screen and associated neural space”, just as the reviewer argues. Under Figure 1b things are quite different.

      This topic – and the changes we have made to address it – is covered at length above. Here we simply want to highlight an empirical finding: sometimes two tasks use the same neural subspace and sometimes they don’t. We have seen both in recent data, and it is can be very non-obvious which will occur based just on behavior. It does not simply relate to whether one is using the same physical workspace. We have even seen situations where the patterns of muscle activity in two tasks are nearly identical, but the neural subspaces are fairly different. When a new task uses a new subspace, neither of the methods noted above (Gilja nor Jarosiewicz) will generalize (nor will MINT). Generalizing to a new subspace is basically impossible without some yet-to-be-invented approach. On the other hand, there are many other pairs of tasks (center-out-reaching versus some other 2D cursor control) where subspaces are likely to be similar, especially if the frequency content of the behavior is similar (in our recent experience this is often critical). When subspaces are shared, most methods will generalize, and that is presumably why generalization worked well in the studies noted above.

      Although MINT can also generalize in such circumstances, R3 is correct that, under the perspective in Figure 1a, MINT will be more limited than other methods. This is now carefully illustrated in Figure 6a. In this traditional perspective, MINT will fail to generalize in cases where new trajectories are near previously observed states, yet move in very different ways from library trajectories. The reason we don’t view this is a shortcoming is that we expect it to occur rarely (else tangling would be high). We thus anticipate the scenario in Figure 6b.

      This is worth stressing because R3 states that our discussion of generalization “is inaccurate because it mixes up two fundamentally different concepts: 1) collecting informative training data and 2) generalizing from task to task.” We have heavily revised this section and improved it. However, it was never inaccurate. Under Figure 6b, these two concepts absolutely are mixed up. If different tasks use different neural subspaces, then this requires collecting different “informative training data” for each. One cannot simply count on having explored the physical workspace.

      Comment 2. MINT is shown to achieve competitive/high performance in highly stereotyped datasets with structured trials, but worse performance on MC_RTT, which is not based on repeated trials and is less stereotyped. This shows that MINT is valuable for decoding in repetitive stereotyped use-cases. However, it also highlights a limitation of MINT for BCIs, which is that MINT may not work well for real-world and/or less-constrained setups such as typing, moving a robotic arm in 3D space, etc. This is again due to MINT being a lookup table with a library of stereotyped trajectories rather than a model. Indeed, the authors acknowledge that the lower performance on MC_RTT (Figure 4) may be caused by the lack of repeated trials of the same type. However, real-world BCI decoding scenarios will also not have such stereotyped trial structure and will be less/un-constrained, in which MINT underperforms. Thus, the claim in the abstract or lines 480-481 that MINT is an "excellent" candidate for clinical BCI applications is not accurate and needs to be qualified. The authors should revise their statements according and discuss this issue. They should also make the use-case of MINT on BCI decoding clearer and more convincing. 

      We discussed, above, multiple changes and additions to the revision that were made to address these concerns. Here we briefly expand on the comment that MINT achieves “worse performance on MC_RTT, which is not based on repeated trials and is less stereotyped”. All decoders performed poorly on this task. MINT still outperformed the two traditional methods, but this was the only dataset where MINT did not also perform better (overall) than the expressive GRU and feedforward network. There are probably multiple reasons why. We agree with R3 that one likely reason is that this dataset is straining generalization, and MINT may have felt this strain more than the two machine-learning-based methods. Another potential reason is the structure of the training data, which made it more challenging to obtain library trajectories in the first place. Importantly, these observations do not support the view in Figure 1a. MINT still outperformed the Kalman and Wiener filters (whose assumptions align with Fig. 1a). To make these points we have added the following:

      “Decoding was acceptable, but noticeably worse, for the MC_RTT dataset… As will be discussed below, every decode method achieved its worst estimates of velocity for the MC_RTT dataset. In addition to the impact of slower reaches, MINT was likely impacted by training data that made it challenging to accurate estimate library trajectories. Due to the lack of repeated trials, MINT used AutoLFADS to estimate the neural state during training. In principle this should work well. In practice AutoLFADS may have been limited by having only 10 minutes of training data. Because the random-target task involved more variable reaches, it may also have stressed the ability of all methods to generalize, perhaps for the reasons illustrated in Figure 1b.

      The only dataset where MINT did not perform the best overall was the MC_RTT dataset, where it was outperformed by the feedforward network and GRU. As noted above, this may relate to the need for MINT to learn neural trajectories from training data that lacked repeated trials of the same movement (a design choice one might wish to avoid). Alternatively, the less-structured MC_RTT dataset may strain the capacity to generalize; all methods experienced a drop in velocity-decoding R2 for this dataset compared to the others. MINT generalizes somewhat differently than other methods, and may have been at a modest disadvantage for this dataset. A strong version of this possibility is that perhaps the perspective in Figure 1a is correct, in which case MINT might struggle because it cannot use forms of generalization that are available to other methods (e.g. generalization based on neuron-velocity correlations). This strong version seems unlikely; MINT continued to significantly outperform the Wiener and Kalman filters, which make assumptions aligned with Figure 1a.”

      Comment 3. Related to 2, it may also be that MINT achieves competitive performance in offline and trial-based stereotyped decoding by overfitting to the trial structure in a given task, and thus may not generalize well to online performance due to overfitting. For example, a recent work showed that offline decoding performance may be overfitted to the task structure and may not represent online performance (Deo et al. 2023). Please discuss. 

      We agree that a limitation of our study is that we do not test online performance. There are sensible reasons for this decision:

      “By necessity and desire, all comparisons were made offline, enabling benchmarked performance across a variety of tasks and decoded variables, where each decoder had access to the exact same data and recording conditions.”

      We recently reported excellent online performance in the cycling task with a different algorithm

      (Schroeder et al. 2022). In the course of that study, we consistently found that improvements in our offline decoding translated to improvements in our online decoding. We thus believe that MINT (which improves on the offline performance of our older algorithm) is a good candidate to work very well online. Yet we agree this still remains to be seen. We have added the following to the Discussion:

      “With that goal in mind, there exist three important practical considerations. First, some decode algorithms experience a performance drop when used online. One presumed reason is that, when decoding is imperfect, the participant alters their strategy which in turn alters the neural responses upon which decoding is based. Because MINT produces particularly accurate decoding, this effect may be minimized, but this cannot be known in advance. If a performance drop does indeed occur, one could adapt the known solution of retraining using data collected during online decoding [13]. Another presumed reason (for a gap between offline and online decoding) is that offline decoders can overfit the temporal structure in training data [107]. This concern is somewhat mitigated by MINT’s use of a short spike-count history, but MINT may nevertheless benefit from data augmentation strategies such as including timedilated versions of learned trajectories in the libraries”

      Comment 4. Related to 2, since MINT requires firing rates to generate the library and simple averaging does not work for this purpose in the MC_RTT dataset (that does not have repeated trials), the authors needed to use AutoLFADS to infer the underlying firing rates. The fact that MINT requires the usage of another model to be constructed first and that this model can be computationally complex, will also be a limiting factor and should be clarified. 

      This concern relates to the computational complexity of computing firing-rate trajectories during training. Usually, rates are estimated via trial-averaging, which makes MINT very fast to train. This was quite noticeable during the Neural Latents Benchmark competition. As one example, for the “MC_Scaling 5 ms Phase”, MINT took 28 seconds to train while GPFA took 30 minutes, the transformer baseline (NDT) took 3.5 hours, and the switching nonlinear dynamical system took 4.5 hours.

      However, the reviewer is quite correct that MINT’s efficiency depends on the method used to construct the library of trajectories. As we note, “MINT is a method for leveraging a trajectory library, not a method for constructing it”. One can use trial-averaging, which is very fast. One can also use fancier, slower methods to compute the trajectories. We don’t view this as a negative – it simply provides options. Usually one would choose trial-averaging, but one does not have to. In the case of MC_RTT, one has a choice between LFADS and grouping into pseudo-conditions and averaging (which is fast). LFADS produces higher performance at the cost of being slower. The operator can choose which they prefer. This is discussed in the following section:

      “For MINT, ‘training’ simply means computation of standard quantities (e.g. firing rates) rather than parameter optimization. MINT is thus typically very fast to train (Table 1), on the order of seconds using generic hardware (no GPUs). This speed reflects the simple operations involved in constructing the library of neural-state trajectories: filtering of spikes and averaging across trials. At the same time we stress that MINT is a method for leveraging a trajectory library, not a method for constructing it. One may sometimes wish to use alternatives to trial-averaging, either of necessity or because they improve trajectory estimates. For example, for the MC_RTT task we used AutoLFADS to infer the library. Training was consequently much slower (hours rather than seconds) because of the time taken to estimate rates. Training time could be reduced back to seconds using a different approach – grouping into pseudo-conditions and averaging – but performance was reduced. Thus, training will typically be very fast, but one may choose time-consuming methods when appropriate.”

      Comment 5. I also find the statement in the abstract and paper that "computations are simple, scalable" to be inaccurate. The authors state that MINT's computational cost is O(NC) only, but it seems this is achieved at a high memory cost as well as computational cost in training. The process is described in section "Lookup table of log-likelihoods" on line [978-990]. The idea is to precompute the log-likelihoods for any combination of all neurons with discretization x all delay/history segments x all conditions and to build a large lookup table for decoding. Basically, the computational cost of precomputing this table is O(V^{Nτ} x TC) and the table requires a memory of O(V^{Nτ}), where V is the number of discretization points for the neural firing rates, N is the number of neurons, τ is the history length, T is the trial length, and C is the number of conditions. This is a very large burden, especially the V^{Nτ} term. This cost is currently not mentioned in the manuscript and should be clarified in the main text. Accordingly, computation claims should be modified including in the abstract. 

      As discussed above, the manuscript has been revised to clarify that our statement was accurate.

      Comment 6. In addition to the above technical concerns, I also believe the authors should clarify the logic behind developing MINT better. From a scientific standpoint, we seek to gain insights into neural computations by making various assumptions and building models that parsimoniously describe the vast amount of neural data rather than simply tabulating the data. For instance, low-dimensional assumptions have led to the development of numerous dimensionality reduction algorithms and these models have led to important interpretations about the underlying dynamics (e.g., fixed points/limit cycles). While it is of course valid and even insightful to propose different assumptions from existing models as the authors do here, they do not actually translate these assumptions into a new model. Without a model and by just tabulating the data, I don't believe we can provide interpretation or advance the understanding of the fundamentals behind neural computations. As such, I am not clear as to how this library building approach can advance neuroscience or how these assumptions are useful. I think the authors should clarify and discuss this point. 

      As requested, a major goal of the revision has been to clarify the scientific motivations underlying MINT’s design. In addition to many textual changes, we have added figures (Figures 1a,b and 6a,b) to outline the two competing scientific perspectives that presently exist. This topic is also addressed by extensions of existing analyses and by new analyses (e.g. Figure 6c-g). 

      In our view these additions have dramatically improved the manuscript. This is especially true because we think R3’s concerns, expressed above, are reasonable. If the perspective in Figure 1a is correct, then R3 is right and MINT is essentially a hack that fails to model the data. MINT would still be effective in many circumstances (as we show), but it would be unprincipled. This would create limitations, just as the reviewer argues. On the other hand, if the perspective in Figure 1b is correct, then MINT is quite principled relative to traditional approaches. Traditional approaches make assumptions (a fixed subspace, consistent neuron-kinematic correlations) that are not correct under Figure 1b.

      We don’t expect R3 to agree with our scientific perspective at this time (though we hope to eventually convince them). To us, the key is that we agree with R3 that the manuscript needs to lay out the different perspectives and their implications, so that readers have a good sense of the possibilities they should be considering. The revised manuscript is greatly improved in this regard.

      Comment 7. Related to 6, there seems to be a logical inconsistency between the operations of MINT and one of its three assumptions, namely, sparsity. The authors state that neural states are sparsely distributed in some neural dimensions (Figure 1a, bottom). If this is the case, then why does MINT extend its decoding scope by interpolating known neural states (and behavior) in the training library? This interpolation suggests that the neural states are dense on the manifold rather than sparse, thus being contradictory to the assumption made. If interpolation-based dense meshes/manifolds underlie the data, then why not model the neural states through the subspace or manifold representations? I think the authors should address this logical inconsistency in MINT, especially since this sparsity assumption also questions the low-dimensional subspace/manifold assumption that is commonly made. 

      We agree this is an important issue, and have added an analysis on this topic (Figure 4d). The key question is simple and empirical: during decoding, does interpolation cause MINT to violate the assumption of sparsity? R3 is quite right that in principle it could. If spiking observations argue for it, MINT’s interpolation could create a dense manifold during decoding rather than a sparse one. The short answer is that empirically this does not happen, in agreement with expectations under Figure 1b. Rather than interpolating between distant states and filling in large ‘voids’, interpolation is consistently local. This is a feature of the data, not of the decoder (MINT doesn’t insist upon sparsity, even though it is designed to work best in situations where the manifold is sparse).

      In addition to adding Figure 4d, we added the following (in an earlier section):

      “The term mesh is apt because, if MINT’s assumptions are correct, interpolation will almost always be local. If so, the set of decodable states will resemble a mesh, created by line segments connecting nearby training-set trajectories. However, this mesh-like structure is not enforced by MINT’s operations. Interpolation could, in principle, create state-distributions that depart from the assumption of a sparse manifold. For example, interpolation could fill in the center of the green tube in Figure 1b, resulting in a solid manifold rather than a mesh around its outer surface. However, this would occur only if spiking observations argued for it. As will be documented below, we find that essentially all interpolation is local.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      I appreciate the detailed methods section, however, more specifics should be integrated into the main text. For example on Line 238, it should additionally be stated how many minutes were used for training and metrics like the MAE which is used later should be reported here.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We now report the duration of training data in the main text:

      “Decoding R^2 was .968 over ~7.1 minutes of test trials based on ~4.4 minutes of training data.”

      We have also added similar specifics throughout the manuscript, e.g. in the Fig. 5 legend:

      “Results are based on the following numbers of training / test trials: MC\_Cycle (174 train, 99 test), MC\_Maze (1721 train, 574 test), Area2\_Bump (272 train, 92 test), MC\_RTT (810 train, 268 test).”

      Similar additions were made to the legends for Fig. 6 and 8. Regarding the request to add MAE for the multitask network, we did not do so for the simple reason that the decoded variable (muscle activity) has arbitrary units. The raw MAE is thus not meaningful. We could of course have normalized, but at this point the MAE is largely redundant with the correlation. In contrast, the MAE is useful when comparing across the MC_Maze, Area2_Bump, and MC_RTT datasets, because they all involve the same scale (cm/s).

      Regarding the MC_RTT task, AutoLFADS was used to obtain robust spike rates, as reported in the methods. However, the rationale for splitting the neural trajectories after AutoLFADS is unclear. If the trajectories were split based on random recording gaps, this might lead to suboptimal performance? It might be advantageous to split them based on a common behavioural state? 

      When learning neural trajectories via AutoLFADS, spiking data is broken into short (but overlapping) segments, rates are estimated for each segment via AutoLFADs, and these rates are then stitched together across segments into long neural trajectories. If there had been no recording gaps, these rates could have been stitched into a single neural trajectory for this dataset. However, the presence of recording gaps left us no choice but to stitch together these rates into more than one trajectory. Fortunately, recording gaps were rare: for the decoding analysis of MC_RTT there were only two recording gaps and therefore three neural trajectories, each ~2.7 minutes in duration. 

      We agree that in general it is desirable to learn neural trajectories that begin and end at behaviorallyrelevant moments (e.g. in between movements). However, having these trajectories potentially end midmovement is not an issue in and of itself. During decoding, MINT is never stuck on a trajectory. Thus, if MINT were decoding states near the end of a trajectory that was cut short due to a training gap, it would simply begin decoding states from other trajectories or elsewhere along the same trajectory in subsequent moments. We could have further trimmed the three neural trajectories to begin and end at behaviorallyrelevant moments, but chose not to as this would have only removed a handful of potentially useful states from the library.

      We now describe this in the Methods:

      “Although one might prefer trajectory boundaries to begin and end at behaviorally relevant moments (e.g. a stationary state), rather than at recording gaps, the exact boundary points are unlikely to be consequential for trajectories of this length that span multiple movements. If MINT estimates a state near the end of a long trajectory, its estimate will simply jump to another likely state on a different trajectory (or earlier along the same trajectory) in subsequent moments. Clipping the end of each trajectory to an earlier behaviorally-relevant moment would only remove potentially useful states from the libraries.”

      Are the training and execution times in Table 1 based on pure Matlab functions or Mex files? If it's Mex files as suggested by the code, it would be good to mention this in the Table caption.

      They are based on a combination of MATLAB and MEX files. This is now clarified in the table caption:

      “Timing measurements taken on a Macbook Pro (on CPU) with 32GB RAM and a 2.3 GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9 processor. Training and execution code used for measurements was written in MATLAB (with the core recursion implemented as a MEX file).”

      As the method most closely resembles a Bayesian decoder it would be good to compare performance against a Naive Bayes decoder. 

      We agree and have now done so. The following has been added to the text:

      “A natural question is thus whether a simpler Bayesian decoder would have yielded similar results. We explored this possibility by testing a Naïve Bayes regression decoder [85] using the MC_Maze dataset. This decoder performed poorly, especially when decoding velocity (R2 = .688 and .093 for hand position and velocity, respectively), indicating that the specific modeling assumptions that differentiate MINT from a naive Bayesian decoder are important drivers of MINT’s performance.”

      Line 199 Typo: The assumption of stereotypy trajectory also enables neural states (and decoded behaviors) to be updated in between time bins. 

      Fixed

      Table 3: It's unclear why the Gaussian binning varies significantly across different datasets. Could the authors explain why this is the case and what its implications might be? 

      We have added the following description in the “Filtering, extracting, and warping data on each trial” subsection of the Methods to discuss how 𝜎 may vary due to the number of trials available for training and how noisy the neural data for those trials is:

      “First, spiking activity for each neuron on each trial was temporally filtered with a Gaussian to yield single-trial rates. Table 3 reports the Gaussian standard deviations σ (in milliseconds) used for each dataset. Larger values of σ utilize broader windows of spiking activity when estimating rates and therefore reduce variability in those rate estimates. However, large σ values also yield neural trajectories with less fine-grained temporal structure. Thus, the optimal σ for a dataset depends on how variable the rate estimates otherwise are.”

      An implementation of the method in an open-source programming language could further enhance the widespread use of the tool. 

      We agree this would be useful, but have yet not implemented the method in any other programming languages. Implementation in Python is still a future goal.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      - Figures 4 and 5 should show the error bars on the horizontal axis rather than portraying them vertically. 

      [Note that these are now Figures 5 and 6]

      The figure legend of Figure 5 now clarifies that the vertical ticks are simply to aid visibility when symbols have very similar means and thus overlap visually. We don’t include error bars (for this analysis) because they are very small and would mostly be smaller than the symbol sizes. Instead, to indicate certainty regarding MINT’s performance measurements, the revised text now gives error ranges for the correlations and MAE values in the context of Figure 4c. These error ranges were computed as the standard deviation of the sampling distribution (computed via resampling of trials) and are thus equivalent to SEMs. The error ranges are all very small; e.g. for the MC_Maze dataset the MAE for x-velocity is 4.5 +/- 0.1 cm/s. (error bars on the correlations are smaller still).

      Thus, for a given dataset, we can be quite certain of how well MINT performs (within ~2% in the above case). This is reassuring, but we also don’t want to overemphasize this accuracy. The main sources of variability one should be concerned about are: 1) different methods can perform differentially well for different brain areas and tasks, 2) methods can decode some behavioral variables better than others, and 3) performance depends on factors like neuron-count and the number of training trials, in ways that can differ across decode methods. For this reason, the study examines multiple datasets, across tasks and brain areas, and measures performance for a range of decoded variables. We also examine the impact of training-set-size (Figure 8a) and population size (solid traces in Fig. 8b, see R2’s next comment below). 

      There is one other source of variance one might be concerned about, but it is specific to the neuralnetwork approaches: different weight initializations might result in different performance. For this reason, each neural-network approach was trained ten times, with the average performance computed. The variability around this average was very small, and this is now stated in the Methods.

      “For the neural networks, the training/testing procedure was repeated 10 times with different random seeds. For most behavioral variables, there was very little variability in performance across repetitions. However, there were a few outliers for which variability was larger. Reported performance for each behavioral group is the average performance across the 10 repetitions to ensure results were not sensitive to any specific random initialization of each network.”

      - For Figure 6, it is unclear whether the neuron-dropping process was repeated multiple times. If not, it should be since the results will be sensitive to which particular subsets of neurons were "dropped". In this case, the results presented in Figure 6 should include error bars to describe the variability in the model performance for each decoder considered. 

      A good point. The results in Figure 8 (previously Figure 6) were computed by averaging over the removal of different random subsets of neurons (50 subsets per neuron count), just as the reviewer requests. The figure has been modified to include the standard deviation of performance across these 50 subsets. The legend clarifies how this was done.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Other comments: 

      (1) [Line 185-188] The authors argue that in a 100-dimensional space with 10 possible discretized values, 10^100 potential neural states need to be computed. But I am not clear on this. This argument seems to hold only in the absence of a model (as in MINT). For a model, e.g., Kalman filter or AutoLFADS, information is encoded in the latent state. For example, a simple Kalman filter for a linear model can be used for efficient inference. This 10^100 computation isn't a general problem but seems MINT-specific, please clarify. 

      We agree this section was potentially confusing. It has been rewritten. We were simply attempting to illustrate why maximum likelihood computations are challenging without constraints. MINT simplifies this problem by adding constraints, which is why it can readily provide data likelihoods (and can do so using a Poisson model). The rewritten section is below:

      “Even with 1000 samples for each of the neural trajectories in Figure 3, there are only 4000 possible neural states for which log-likelihoods must be computed (in practice it is fewer still, see Methods). This is far fewer than if one were to naively consider all possible neural states in a typical rate- or factor-based subspace. It thus becomes tractable to compute log-likelihoods using a Poisson observation model. A Poisson observation model is usually considered desirable, yet can pose tractability challenges for methods that utilize a continuous model of neural states. For example, when using a Kalman filter, one is often restricted to assuming a Gaussian observation model to maintain computational tractability “

      (2) [Figure 6b] Why do the authors set the dropped neurons to zero in the "zeroed" results of the robustness analysis? Why not disregard the dropped neurons during the decoding process? 

      We agree the terminology we had used in this section was confusing. We have altered the figure and rewritten the text. The following, now at the beginning of that section, addresses the reviewer’s query: 

      “It is desirable for a decoder to be robust to the unexpected loss of the ability to detect spikes from some neurons. Such loss might occur while decoding, without being immediately detected. Additionally, one desires robustness to a known loss of neurons / recording channels. For example, there may have been channels that were active one morning but are no longer active that afternoon. At least in principle, MINT makes it very easy to handle this second situation: there is no need to retrain the decoder, one simply ignores the lost neurons when computing likelihoods. This is in contrast to nearly all other methods, which require retraining because the loss of one neuron alters the optimal parameters associated with every other neuron.”

      The figure has been relabeled accordingly; instead of the label ‘zeroed’, we use the label ‘undetected neuron loss’.

      (3) Authors should provide statistical significance on their results, which they already did for Fig. S3a,b,c but missing on some other figures/places. 

      We have added error bars in some key places, including in the text when quantifying MINT’s performance in the context of Figure 4. Importantly, error bars are only as meaningful as the source of error they assess, and there are reasons to be careful given this. The standard method for putting error bars on performance is to resample trials, which is indeed what we now report. These error bars are very small. For example, when decoding horizontal velocity for the MC_Maze dataset, the correlation between MINT’s decode and the true velocity had a mean and SD of the sampling distribution of 0.963 +/- 0.001. This means that, for a given dataset and target variable, we have enough trials/data that we can be quite certain of how well MINT performs. However, we want to be careful not to overstate this certainty. What one really wants to know is how well MINT performs across a variety of datasets, brain areas, target variables, neuron counts, etc. It is for this reason that we make multiple such comparisons, which provides a more valuable view of performance variability.

      For Figure 7, error bars are unavailable. Because this was a benchmark, there was exactly one test-set that was never seen before. This is thus not something that could be resampled many times (that would have revealed the test data and thus invalidated the benchmark, not to mention that some of these methods take days to train). We could, in principle, have added resampling to Figure 5. In our view it would not be helpful and could be misleading for the reasons noted above. If we computed standard errors using different train/test partitions, they would be very tight (mostly smaller than the symbol sizes), which would give the impression that one can be quite certain of a given R^2 value. Yet variability in the train/test partition is not the variability one is concerned about in practice. In practice, one is concerned about whether one would get a similar R^2 for a different dataset, or brain area, or task, or choice of decoded variable. Our analysis thus concentrated on showing results across a broad range of situations. In our view this is a far more relevant way of illustrating the degree of meaningful variability (which is quite large) than resampling, which produces reassuringly small but (mostly) irrelevant standard errors.

      Error bars are supplied in Figure 8b. These error bars give a sense of variability across re-samplings of the neural population. While this is not typically the source of variability one is most concerned about, for this analysis it becomes appropriate to show resampling-based standard errors because a natural concern is that results may depend on which neurons were dropped. So here it is both straightforward, and desirable, to compute standard errors. (The fact that MINT and the Wiener filter can be retrained many times swiftly was also key – this isn’t true of the more expressive methods). Figure S1 also uses resampling-based confidence intervals for similar reasons.

      (4) [Line 431-437] Authors state that MINT outperforms other methods with the PSTH R^2 metric (trial-averaged smoothed spikes for each condition). However, I think this measure may not provide a fair comparison and is confounded because MINT's library is built using PSTH (i.e., averaged firing rate) but other methods do not use the PSTH. The author should clarify this. 

      The PSTH R^2 metric was not created by us; it was part of the Neural Latents Benchmark. They chose it because it ensures that a method cannot ‘cheat’ (on the Bits/Spike measure) by reproducing fine features of spiking while estimating rates badly. We agree with the reviewer’s point: MINT’s design does give it a potential advantage in this particular performance metric. This isn’t a confound though, just a feature. Importantly, MINT will score well on this metric only if MINT’s neural state estimate is accurate (including accuracy in time). Without accurate estimation of the neural state at each time, it wouldn’t matter that the library trajectory is based on PSTHs. This is now explicitly stated:

      “This is in some ways unsurprising: MINT estimates neural states that tend to resemble (at least locally) trajectories ‘built’ from training-set-derived rates, which presumably resemble test-set rates. Yet strong performance is not a trivial consequence of MINT’s design. MINT does not ‘select’ whole library trajectories; PSTH R2 will be high only if condition (c), index (k), and the interpolation parameter (α) are accurately estimated for most moments.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Summary of Revisions

      We sincerely thank the editors and reviewers for their thorough assessment and constructive feedback, which has greatly improved our manuscript. We have carefully addressed all concerns as summarized below:

      In response to the requests made by Reviewer #1:

      • Clarified task design and acknowledged its limitations regarding endpoint accuracy control.

      • Included analysis comparing the effects of cerebellar block on within-trial versus inter-trial movements.

      • Clearly defined target groupings, replacing the term “single-joint” with “movements with low coupling torques” and “multi-joint” with “movements with high coupling torques”: definitions which are now supported by a supplementary material describing the net torque data as a function of the targets.

      • Added detailed descriptions of trial success criteria, based on timing, and positional constraints.

      • Expanded figures illustrating the effect of the cerebellar block on movement decomposition and variability in joint space and across different target directions.

      In response to the requests made by Reviewer #2:

      • Included an explicit discussion highlighting why the acute reduction in muscle torque during cerebellar block is likely due to agonist weakness rather than cocontraction, emphasizing the rationale behind our torque-centric analysis.

      • Clearly defined trial success criteria and included the timing and accuracy constraints used in our study.

      • Clarified our rationale for grouping targets based on shoulder flexion/extension, clearly justified by interaction torque analysis.

      • Revised the caption and legend of Figure 3d for clarity and included partial correlation results to account for the variability across monkeys for the analysis of reduction in hand velocity vs. coupling torque in control. 

      In response to the requests made by Reviewer #3:

      • Included electrophysiological validation of the accuracy of targeting the superior cerebellar peduncle from one of the monkeys used in the experiment.

      • Provided new analyses comparing movement decomposition and variability between slower and faster movements within the cerebellar block condition.

      • Revised manuscript text to clarify terminology and clearly explained the rationale behind target groupings and torque analyses.

      • Expanded discussion sections to better explain the relationships between timing deficits, movement decomposition, trajectory variability, and faulty motor commands.

      • Clarified methodological choices regarding our analysis timeframe and acknowledged limitations related to the distinction between feedforward and feedback control.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary:

      In a previous work, Prut and colleagues had shown that during reaching, high-frequency stimulation of the cerebellar outputs resulted in reduced reach velocity. Moreover, they showed that the stimulation produced reaches that deviated from a straight line, with the shoulder and elbow movements becoming less coordinated. In this report, they extend their previous work by the addition of modeling results that investigate the relationship between the kinematic changes and torques produced at the joints. The results show that the slowing is not due to reductions in interaction torques alone, as the reductions in velocity occur even for movements that are single joints. More interestingly, the experiment revealed evidence for the decomposition of the reaching movement, as well as an increase in the variance of the trajectory.

      Strengths:

      This is a rare experiment in a non-human primate that assessed the importance of cerebellar input to the motor cortex during reaching.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive feedback on our study. We particularly appreciate their recognition of the novelty and importance of our experimental approach in non-human primates, as well as their insightful summary of our key findings.

      Weaknesses:

      My major concerns are described below.

      If I understand the task design correctly, the monkeys did not need to stop their hand at the target. I think this design may be suboptimal for investigating the role of the cerebellum in control of reaching because a number of earlier works have found that the cerebellum's contributions are particularly significant as the movement ends, i.e., stopping at the target. For example, in mice, interposed nucleus neurons tend to be most active near the end of the reach that requires extension, and their activation produces flexion forces during the reach (Becker and Person 2019). Indeed, the inactivation of interposed neurons that project to the thalamus results in overshooting of reaching movements (Low et al. 2018). Recent work has also found that many Purkinje cells show a burst-pause pattern as the reach nears its endpoint, and stimulation of the mossy fibers tends to disrupt endpoint control (Calame et al. 2023). Thus, the fact that the current paper has no data regarding endpoint control of the reach is puzzling to me.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s point that cerebellar contributions can be particularly critical near the endpoint of a reach. In our task design, monkeys were indeed required to hold at the target briefly—100 ms for Monkeys S and P, and 150 ms for Monkeys C and M—before receiving the reward. However,  given the size of the targets and the velocity of movements, it often happened that the monkeys didn’t have to stop their movements fully to obtain the reward. Importantly, we relaxed the task’s requirements (by increasing the target size and reducing the temporal constraints) to enable the monkeys to perform a sufficient number of successful trials under both the control and the cerebellar block conditions. This was necessary as we found that strict criteria regarding these parameters yielded a very low success rate in the cerebellar block condition. Nevertheless, as we appreciate now, this task design is suboptimal for studying endpoint accuracy which is an important aspect of cerebellar control. In the methods section of our revised manuscript, we have clarified this aspect of the task design and acknowledged that it is sub-optimal for examining the role of the cerebellum in end-point control (lines 475-485). The task design of our future studies will explicitly address this point more carefully.

      Because stimulation continued after the cursor had crossed the target, it is interesting to ask whether this disruption had any effects on the movements that were task-irrelevant. The reason for asking this is because we have found that whereas during task-relevant eye or tongue movements the Purkinje cells are strongly modulated, the modulations are much more muted when similar movements are performed but are task-irrelevant (Pi et al., PNAS 2024; Hage et al. Biorxiv 2024). Thus, it is interesting to ask whether the effects of stimulation were global and affected all movements, or were the effects primarily concerned with the task-relevant movements.

      This is an insightful suggestion. The behavioral task in the present study was designed with a focus on task-relevant, reward-associated reaching movements. Nevertheless, we also have data on the inter-trial movements (e.g., return-to-center reaches) under continued cerebellar stimulation, which were not directly associated with reward. In response to the reviewer’s comment, we compared the effects of cerebellar block on endpoint velocities between these two types of movements. We found that reductions in peak hand velocity during inter-trial movements were significantly smaller than those observed during the target directed reaches. We have updated the Results section of our manuscript (lines 125-137) and expanded our supplementary document (Supplementary Figure S1) to include this analysis. 

      If the schematic in Figure 1 is accurate, it is difficult for me to see how any of the reaching movements can be termed single joint. In the paper, T1 is labeled as a single joint, and T2T4 are labeled as dual-joint. The authors should provide data to justify this.

      The reviewer is correct. Movements to all targets involved both shoulder and elbow joints, but the degree to which each joint participated varied in a targetspecific manner. In our original manuscript, we used the term “single-joint” to refer to movements in which one joint was nearly stationary, resulting in minimal coupling torque at the adjacent joint. Specifically, for Targets 1 and 5, the net torque—and thus acceleration— at the elbow was negligible, causing the shoulder to experience low coupling torques (as illustrated in Figure 3c of our revised manuscript). Following this comment and  to avoid confusion, we have now explained this explicitly in the revised manuscript (lines 178-187). This is supported by Supplementary Figure S2 demonstrating the net torques at the shoulder and elbow for movements to each target. We have also replaced the term ‘singlejoint movements’  and ‘multi-joint movements’  with  ‘movements with low coupling torques’ and ‘movements with high coupling torques’ respectively in our revised manuscript (lines 178-180, 204-207, 225-227, 230-232, 305-307, and 362-365).  

      Because at least part of this work was previously analyzed and published, information should be provided regarding which data are new.

      While some of the same animals and stimulation protocol were presented in prior work, the inverse-dynamics modeling, the analyses exploring progressive velocity changes across trials under a cerebellar block, and the relationship of motor noise to movement velocity are newly reported in this manuscript. We have included a clear statement in the Methods section specifying which components of the dataset and analyses are entirely new (lines 582-589).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Before the results are presented, it is useful to present the experimental paradigm in more detail. For example, after the center-out movement was completed, was the monkey required to hold at the target location? How did the next trial begin (re-centering movement)? Next, specify the stimulation protocol, noting that each session was divided into 3-4 blocks of stimulation and not stimulation, with each block 50-80 trials.

      We have updated the results section of our revised manuscript (lines 91-104) to present the experimental paradigm in more detail according to the reviewer’s advice.

      (2) Figure 1. Hand velocity does not show how the reach was completed. Did the subjects stop at the target or simply shoot through it and turn around without stopping? Why are the traces cut off?

      Monkeys were indeed required to hold at the target briefly (100-150 ms) before receiving the reward. However,  given the size of the targets and the velocity of movements, it often happened that the monkeys didn’t have to stop their movements fully to obtain the reward. The hand velocity profile shown in Figure 1b and the torque profiles shown in Figures 2a and 2b correspond to the period from movement onset to the entry of the control cursor into the peripheral target which marked the end of the movement for the trial. Since the monkeys didn’t have to stop their movements fully for the trial to end, the traces appear cut off at the beginning of the deceleration/stopping phase of the movement. We have updated the captions of Figures 1b, 2a, and 2b to include this information (lines 869-872 and 882-884).  

      (3) Maybe state that the data regarding reaction times are not presented because of the task design in which the go signal was predictable.

      In monkeys M and C, the timing of the go signal was fixed and therefore predictable. Furthermore, they were also allowed a grace period of 200 ms before the go signal to facilitate predictive timing which often resulted in negative reaction times. However, in Monkeys S and P, the go signal was variable in timing and the monkeys were not allowed to initiate the movements before the go signal. In our previous studies (Nashef et al., 2019; Israely et al. 2025), we reported increased reaction times under cerebellar block. However, since the present study focuses specifically on execution-related motor deficits, we did not analyze reaction time data. 

      (4) Please provide the data and analysis regarding the entire reach, including the period after the cursor crosses the target and returns to the center position.

      We compared the peak hand velocity of the target-directed movements to the inter-trial return-to-center movements. Cerebellar block produced significantly smaller reductions in peak hand velocity during inter-trial movements compared to within-trial reaches. The results section of our revised manuscript (lines 125137) and the supplementary material (Supplementary Figure S1) have been updated accordingly. While the behavioral task in the present study was designed with a focus on task-relevant, reward-associated reaching movements, it will be interesting to examine in detail the effect of cerebellar block on spontaneous movements in a future study.

      (5) Figure 5. To illustrate the decomposition of multijoint movements into a sequence of single joint movements, I suggest plotting movements in joint space (in addition to Cartesian space as you have done now). The results in Figure 5 are most interesting and thus should be expanded. Please provide this data using the format in Figure 1C, that is, as a function of direction.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have plotted sample trajectories in joint-velocity (Supplementary Figures 3a and b) and position space (Supplementary Figures 4a and b) to highlight the decomposition of multi-joint movements and increased inter-trial trajectory variability respectively during the cerebellar block. Additionally, we also analyzed movement decomposition and trajectory variability as a function of target direction (Supplementary Figures 3c and 4c respectively). The corresponding text in the Results section has been updated accordingly (lines 256-261, 267-271, 277-278 and 280-288).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This manuscript asks an interesting and important question: what part of 'cerebellar' motor dysfunction is an acute control problem vs a compensatory strategy to the acute control issue? The authors use a cerebellar 'blockade' protocol, consisting of high-frequency stimuli applied to the cerebellar peduncle which is thought to interfere with outflow signals. This protocol was applied in monkeys performing center outreaching movements and has been published from this laboratory in several preceding studies. I found the takehome-message broadly convincing and clarifying - that cerebellar block reduces muscle activation acutely particularly in movements that involve multiple joints and therefore invoke interaction torques, and that movements progressively slow down to in effect 'compensate' for these acute tone deficits. The manuscript was generally well written, and the data was clear, convincing, and novel. My comments below highlight suggestions to improve clarity and sharpen some arguments.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful and constructive feedback. We are grateful for their recognition of the significance of our findings regarding acute and compensatory motor responses following a cerebellar block.

      Primary comments:

      (1) Torque vs. tone: Is it known whether this type of cerebellar blockade is reducing muscle tone or inducing any type of acute co-contraction that could influence limb velocity through mechanisms different than 'atonia'? If so, the authors should discuss this information in the discussion section starting around line 336, and clarify that this motivates (if it does) the focus on 'torques' rather than muscle activation. Relatedly, besides the fact that there are joints involved, is there a reason there is so much emphasis on torque per se? If the muscle is deprived of sufficient drive, it would seem that it would be more straightforward to conceptualize the deficit as one of insufficient timed drive to a set of muscles than joint force. Some text better contextualizing the choices made here would be sufficient to address this concern. I found statements like those in the introduction "hand velocity was low initially, reflecting a primary muscle torque deficit" to be lacking in substance. Either that statement is self-evident or the alternative was not made clear. Finally, emphasize that it is a loss of self-generated torque at the shoulder that accounts for the velocity deficits. At times the phrasing makes it seem that there is a loss of some kind of passive torque.

      We appreciate the reviewer's emphasis on distinguishing between reduced muscle tone and altered co-contraction patterns as potential explanations for decreased limb velocity. Our focus on torques per se arises from previous studies suggesting that a core deficit in cerebellar ataxia is impaired prediction of passive coupling torques (Bastian et al., 1996). In our study, we demonstrate that motor deficits in cerebellar ataxia result in fact from both the inability to compensate for passive coupling torques and an acute insufficiency in the ability to generate active muscle torques.

      The muscle torque, representing the sum of all muscle forces acting at a joint, can indeed be reduced by any of the two mechanisms: (i) co-contraction of agonist and antagonist muscles, and/or (ii) insufficient agonist muscle activity (i.e., agonist weakness). In cerebellar ataxia, co-contraction has been proposed as a simplifying strategy to stabilize stationary joints during decomposed multi-joint movements (Bastian et al., 1996). In our experiments, this strategy would likely emerge gradually following cerebellar block similar to the adaptive slowing of movements aimed at reducing inter-joint interactions. However, we found that irrespective of the magnitude of coupling torques involved, reduction in the velocity of movements also occurred immediately following cerebellar block—a pattern less consistent with gradually emerging compensatory strategies. We therefore argue that this acute onset of movement slowing was mainly driven by agonist weakness. Our argument is further supported by previous studies which attributed reduced agonist muscle activity as a cause for the slowing of voluntary movements in individuals with cerebellar lesions (Hallet et al. 1991; Wild et al., 1996). Additionally, early studies have also reported muscle weakness (asthenia) and hypotonia acutely following cerebellar injury in humans (Haines et al., 2007) and experimental lesions in animals (Luciani, 1893; Bremer et al., 1935; Fulton & Dow, 1937; Granit et al., 1955).

      We have modified the discussion section of our revised manuscript (lines 366-376) to explain/clarify this. Additionally, we have also underscored that the observed velocity deficits primarily reflect a reduction of self-generated torque at the shoulder (whether acute or adaptive), rather than any reduction in passive torque (lines 350-352).

      (2) Please clarify some of the experimental metrics: Ln 94 RESULTS. The success rate is used as a primary behavioral readout, but what constitutes success is not clearly defined in the methods. In addition to providing a clear definition in the methods section, it would also be helpful for the authors to provide a brief list of criteria used to determine a 'successful' movement in the results section before the behavioral consequences of stimulation are described. In particular, the time and positional error requirements should be clear.

      Successful trials were defined as trials in which monkeys didn’t leave the center position before the “Go” signal and entered the peripheral target within a permitted movement time. We have updated the results (lines 91-104) and methods (lines 475-485) section of our revised manuscript to include (i) the timing criteria of each phase of the trials and (ii) the size of the peripheral targets indicating the tolerance for endpoint accuracy.  

      (3) Based on the polar plot in Figure 1c, it seemed odd to consider Targets 1-4 outward and 5-8 inward movements, when 1 and 5 are side-to-side. Is there a rationale for this grouping or might results be cleaner by cleanly segregating outward (targets 2-4) and inward (targets 6-8) movements? Indeed, by Figure 3 where interaction torques are measured, this grouping would seem to align with the hypothesis much more cleanly since it is with T2,T3,and T4 where clear coupling torques deficits are seen with cerebellar block.

      We acknowledge the reviewer's observation regarding the classification of targets 1 and 5 as side-to-side movements rather than strictly "outward" or "inward." In the initial section of our results, we grouped the targets based on shoulder joint movements: "outward" targets involved shoulder flexion, while "inward" targets involved shoulder extension. This classification highlighted the more pronounced effect of cerebellar block on movements requiring shoulder flexion compared to those requiring shoulder extension. For subsequent analyses, we focused on the effects of cerebellar block on movements to "outward" targets, which included directions involving low (target 1) or high (targets 2–4) coupling torques. To clarify this aspect, we have revised our manuscript to explain our definition of "outward" (targets 1–4) and "inward" (targets 5–8) target groupings based on shoulder  flexion and extension movements respectively (lines 117-120).

      (4) I did not follow Figure 3d. Both the figure axis labels and the description in the main text were difficult to follow. Furthermore, the color code per animal made me question whether the linear regression across the entire dataset was valid, or would be better performed within animal, and the regressions summarized across animals. The authors should look again at this section and figure.

      We have revised the legend of Figure 3d to include a detailed explanation of how the value along each axis is computed  (lines 908-920 of the revised manuscript). Please note that  the color coding of the data points is as per the target number (T1-T4) and not the monkey number (as denoted in the figure legend). Also, pooling of data across monkeys was done after confirming that data from each animal expressed a similar trend. Specifically, the correlation coefficients were all positive but statistically significant in 3 out of the 4 monkeys. Following the reviewers’ feedback, we now performed  a partial correlation analysis (which controls for the variability across monkeys) and found a significant correlation (r = 0.32, p < 0.001) between reduction in peak hand velocities during cerebellar block and the net coupling torque impulse. We have updated the manuscript to include the result of the partial correlation analysis (lines 173-176).  

      (5) Line 206+ The rationale for examining movement decomposition with a cerebellar block is presented as testing the role of the cerebellum in timing. Yet it is not spelled out what movement decomposition and trajectory variability have to do with motor timing per se.

      The reviewer is right and the relations between timing, decomposition and variability need to be explicitly explained. In the results  section of our revised manuscript, we have explained how decomposed movements and trajectory variability may reflect impaired temporal coordination across multiple joints—a critical cerebellar function (lines 235-244).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Rephrase the findings, starting Line 232. Here the authors state, "Next, we asked whether movement decomposition was mainly due to lower hand velocities. We therefore selected a subset of control trials that matched the cerebellar block trials in their peak velocity. However, even though movement decomposition in these control trials was higher compared to all control trials, it was still significantly lower than velocity matched cerebellar block trials." I suggest inverting the final sentence to: "Movement decomposition in control trials was significantly lower than velocity-matched cerebellar block trials, even though these control trials themselves had somewhat higher decomposition indices than all control trials together." A similar issue pops up with trajectory variability below that simply requires some editing to be less clunky.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have revised the sentences related to movement decomposition and trajectory variability. These sentences now reads as follows: 

      (lines 267-271 in the revised manuscript): “Movement decomposition in control trials was significantly lower than velocity-matched cerebellar block trials (p < 0.001; Figure 5c), even though these control trials themselves had 11.0% (CI [5.2, 17.0], p = 0.03) higher decomposition than the mean value calculated across all control trials.” 

      (lines 280-288 in the revised manuscript): “ When we compared the subset of velocitymatched control and cerebellar block trials, we found that cerebellar block trials exhibited 34.6% (CI [26.2, 43.2], p < 0.001) higher trajectory variability (Figure 5e). Normally, slower movements are also less variable due to the speed-accuracy tradeoff (Plamondon and Alimi 1997). Indeed, the trajectory variability in this subset of slower control trials was 5.5% (CI [0.9, 9.9], p = 0.02) lower than that of all control trials. In other words, despite slower movements, cerebellar block led to increased trajectory variability.”

      (2) Typo: Ln 73 sequences, not sequence.

      Typo error was corrected (line 75 of revised manuscript). 

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript, "Disentangling acute motor deficits and adaptive responses evoked by the loss of cerebellar output," Sinha and colleagues aim to identify distinct causes of motor impairments seen when perturbing cerebellar circuits. This goal is an important one, given the diversity of movement-related phenotypes in patients with cerebellar lesions or injuries, which are especially difficult to dissect given the chronic nature of the circuit damage. To address this goal, the authors use high-frequency stimulation (HFS) of the superior cerebellar peduncle in monkeys performing reaching movements. HFS provides an attractive approach for transiently disrupting cerebellar function previously published by this group. First, they found a reduction in hand velocities during reaching, which was more pronounced for outward versus inward movements. By modeling inverse dynamics, they find evidence that shoulder muscle torques are especially affected. Next, the authors examine the temporal evolution of movement phenotypes over successive blocks of HFS trials. Using this analysis, they find that in addition to the acute, specific effects on muscle torques in early HFS trials, there was an additional progressive reduction in velocity during later trials, which they interpret as an adaptive response to the inability to effectively compensate for interaction torques during cerebellar block. Finally, the authors examine movement decomposition and trajectory, finding that even when low-velocity reaches are matched to controls, HFS produces abnormally decomposed movements and higher than expected variability in trajectory.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this work provides important insight into how perturbation of cerebellar circuits can elicit diverse effects on movement across multiple timescales.

      The HFS approach provides temporal resolution and enables analysis that would be hard to perform in the context of chronic lesions or slow pharmacological interventions. Thus, this study describes an important advance over prior methods of circuit disruption, and their approach can be used as a framework for future studies that delve deeper into how additional aspects of sensorimotor control are disrupted (e.g., response to limb perturbations).

      In addition, the authors use well-designed behavioral approaches and analysis methods to distinguish immediate from longer-term adaptive effects of HFS on behavior. Moreover, inverse dynamics modeling provides important insight into how movements with different kinematics and muscle dynamics might be differentially disrupted by cerebellar perturbation.

      We thank the reviewer for their detailed assessment and thoughtful comments and greatly appreciate their positive feedback.  

      Weaknesses:

      The argument that there are acute and adaptive effects to perturbing cerebellar circuits is compelling, but there seems to be a lost opportunity to leverage the fast and reversible nature of the perturbations to further test this idea and strengthen the interpretation. Specifically, the authors could have bolstered this argument by looking at the effects of terminating HFS - one might hypothesize that the acute impacts on muscle torques would quickly return to baseline in the absence of HFS, whereas the longer-term adaptive component would persist in the form of aftereffects during the 'washout' period. As is, the reversible nature of the perturbation seems underutilized in testing the authors' ideas.

      We agree that our approach could more explicitly exploit the rapid reversibility of high-frequency stimulation (HFS) by examining post-stimulation ‘washout’ periods. However, for the present dataset, we ended the session after the set of cerebellar block trials without using an explicit washout period. We plan to study the effect of the cerebellar block on immediate post-block washout trials in the future.    

      The analysis showing that there is a gradual reduction in velocity during what the authors call an adaptive phase is convincing. That said, the argument is made that this is due to difficulty in compensating for interaction torques. Even if the inward targets (i.e., targets 68) do not show a deficit during the acute phase, these targets still have significant interaction torques (Figure 3c). Given the interpretation of the data as presented, it is not clear why disruption of movement during the adaptive phase would not be seen for these targets as well since they also have large interaction torques. Moreover, it is difficult to delve into this issue in more detail, as the analyses in Figures 4 and 5 omit the inward targets.

      The reviewer is right and  movements to Targets 6–8 (inward) were seemingly unaffected despite also involving significant interaction torques. Specifically, we noted that while outward targets (2–4) tend to involve higher coupling torque impulses on average, this alone does not fully explain the differential impact of cerebellar block, as illustrated by discrepancies at the individual target level (e.g., target 7 vs. target 1). We propose two possible explanations: (1) a bias toward shoulder flexion in the effect of cerebellar block—consistent with earlier studies showing ipsilateral flexor activation or tone changes following stimulation or lesioning of the deep cerebellar nuclei; and (2) posture-related facilitation of inward (shoulder extension) movements from the central starting position. This point is addressed in the Discussion section (lines 404-433  in the revised manuscript).

      The text in the Introduction and in the prior work developing the HFS approach overstates the selectivity of the perturbations. First, there is an emphasis on signals transmitted to the neocortex. As the authors state several times in the Discussion, there are many subcortical targets of the cerebellar nuclei as well, and thus it is difficult to disentangle target-specific behavioral effects using this approach. Second, the superior cerebellar peduncle contains both cerebellar outputs and inputs (e.g., spinocerebellar). Therefore, the selectivity in perturbing cerebellar output feels overstated. Readers would benefit from a more agnostic claim that HFS affects cerebellar communication with the rest of the nervous system, which would not affect the major findings of the study.

      The reviewer is right that the superior cerebellar peduncle carries both descending and ascending fibers, and that cerebellar nuclei project to subcortical as well as cortical targets. Therefore, we cannot rule out the fact that the effect of HFS  may be mediated in part through pathways other than the cerebello-thalamo-cortical pathway (as mentioned in the Discussion section). However, it is also important to note that in primates the cerebellar-thalamo-cortical (CTC) pathway greatly expanded (at the expense of the cerbello-rubro-spinal tract) in mediating cerebellar control of voluntary movements (Horne and Butler, 1995). The cerebello-subcortical pathways diminished in importance over the course of evolution (Nathan and Smith, 1982, Padel et al., 1981, ten Donkelaar, 1988). Previously we found that the ascending spinocerebellar axons which enter the cerebellum through the superior cerebellar peduncle (SCP) are weakly task-related and the descending system is quite small (Cohen et al, 2017). We have clarified these points and acknowledged that HFS disrupts cerebellar communication broadly, rather than solely the cerebellothalamo-cortical pathway in the methods section of our revised manuscript (lines 531544).  

      The text implies that increased movement decomposition and variability must be due to noise. However, this assumption is not tested. It is possible that the impairments observed are caused by disrupted commands, independent of whether these command signals are noisy. In other words, commands could be low noise but still faulty.

      We recognize the reviewer’s concern about linking movement decomposition and trial-to-trial trajectory variability with motor noise. We interpret these motor abnormalities as a form of motor noise in the sense that they are generated by faulty motor commands. We draw our interpretation from the findings of previous research work which show that the cerebellum aids in the state estimation of the limb and subsequent generation of accurate feedforward commands. Therefore, disruption of the cerebellar output may lead to faulty motor commands resulting in the observed asynchronous joint activations (i.e., movement decomposition) and unpredictable trajectories (i.e., increased trial-to-trial variability). Both observed deficits resemble increased motor noise. This point is presented in our Discussion section (lines 436-458 of the revised manuscript),

      Throughout the text, the use of the term 'feedforward control' seems unnecessary. To dig into the feedforward component of the deficit, the authors could quantify the trajectory errors only at the earliest time points (e.g., in Figure 5d), but even with this analysis, it is difficult to disentangle feedforward- and feedback-mediated effects when deficits are seen throughout the reach. While outside the scope of this study, it would be interesting to explore how feedback responses to limb perturbation are affected in control versus HFS conditions. However, as is, these questions are not explored, and the claim of impaired feedforward control feels overstated.

      We agree that to strictly focus on feedforward control, we could have examined the measured variables in the first 50-100 ms of the movement which has been shown to be unaffected by feedback responses (Pruszynski et al. 2008, Todorov and Jordan 2002,  Pruszynski  and Scott 2012, Crevecoeur  et al. 2013). However, in our task, the amplitude of movements made by the monkeys was small, and therefore the response measures in the first 50-100 ms were too small for a robust estimation. Also, fixing a time window led to an unfair comparison between control and cerebellar block trials, in which velocity was significantly reduced and therefore movement time was longer.  Therefore, we used the peak velocity, torque impulse at the peak velocity, and maximum deviation of the hand trajectory as response measures. We have acknowledged this point in the methods section of our revised manuscript (lines 590-600). We have also refrained from using the term feedforward control throughout the text of our revised manuscript as suggested by the reviewer.

      The terminology 'single-joint' movement is a bit confusing. At a minimum, it would be nice to show kinematics during different target reaches to demonstrate that certain targets are indeed single joint movements. More of an issue, however, is that it seems like these are not actually 'single-joint' movements. For example, Figure 2c shows that target 1 exhibits high elbow and shoulder torques, but in the text, T1 is described as a 'single-joint' reach (e.g. lines 155-156). The point that I think the authors are making is that these targets have low interaction torques. If that is the case, the terminology should be changed or clarified to avoid confusion.

      Indeed, as reviewer #1 also noted, movements to targets 1 and 5 are not purely single-joint but rather have relatively low coupling torques. Movements to all targets involved both shoulder and elbow joints, but the degree to which each joint participated varied in a target-specific manner. In our original manuscript, we used the term “single-joint” to refer to movements in which one joint was largely stationary, resulting in minimal coupling torque at the adjacent joint. Specifically, for Targets 1 and 5, the net torque—and thus acceleration—at the elbow was negligible, causing the shoulder to experience low coupling torques (as illustrated in Figure 3c of our revised manuscript). Following this comment and  to avoid confusion, we have now explained this explicitly in the revised manuscript (lines 178-187). This is supported by Supplementary Figure S2 demonstrating the net torques at the shoulder and elbow for movements to each target. We have also replaced the term ‘single-joint movements’  and ‘multi-joint movements’  with  ‘movements with low coupling torques’ and ‘movements with high coupling torques’ respectively in our revised manuscript (lines 178-180, 204-207, 225-227, 230-232, 305-307, and 362-365).

      The labels in Figure 3d are confusing and could use more explanation in the figure legend. In Figure 3d, it is stated that data from all monkeys is pooled. However, if there is a systematic bias between animals, this could generate spurious correlations. Were correlations also calculated for each animal separately to confirm the same trend between velocity and coupling torques holds for each animal?

      We have revised the legend of Figure 3d to include a detailed explanation of how the values along each axis are computed  (lines 908-920 of the revised manuscript). Please note that the pooling of data across monkeys was done after confirming that data from each animal expressed a similar trend. Specifically, the correlation coefficients were all positive but statistically significant in 3 out of the 4 monkeys. Moreover, following the reviewers’ feedback, we also did a partial correlation analysis (which controls for the variability across monkeys) and found a significant correlation (r = 0.32, p < 0.001) between reduction in peak hand velocities during cerebellar block and the net coupling torque impulse. We have updated the manuscript to include the result of the partial correlation analysis (lines 173-176).  

      In Table S1, it would be nice to see target-specific success rates. The data would suggest that targets with the highest interaction torques will have the largest reduction in success rates, especially during later HFS trials. Is this the case?

      The breakdown of the percentage increase in failure rate due to cerebellar block as a function of target direction is shown in Author response image 1 inserted to this response. 

      Author response image 1.

      Effect of cerebellar block on failure rate. The change in failure rate for the cerebellar block trials was computed relative to the control trials per session per target. The depicted values are the mean ± 95% confidence intervals across all sessions pooled from all four monkeys. The individual means of each monkey are overlaid. Statistical significance is denoted as follows: p ≥ 0.05NS, p < 0.05*, p < 0.01**, p < 0.001*** [T1-8: Targets 1-8]

      The increase in failure rate due to cerebellar block was not affected by the target direction (linear mixed model analysis,  target x trial-type interaction effect: p  = 0.44).  However, it should be noted that success/failure depends on several factors beyond just the execution related impaired limb dynamics. In a previous study (Nashef et al. 2019) we identified several causes of failure such as (i) not entering the central target in time, (ii) premature exit from the central target before the ‘go’ signal,  (iii) reaction time longer than the time permitted to reach the peripheral target after the ‘go’ signal, or (iv) not holding at the peripheral target for the required time at the end of the movement.   

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) It would be helpful to provide some supplemental information on electrophysiological validation of the targeting in each monkey. Was any variability in targeting observed (e.g., some targeting was more effective at eliciting cortical responses)? If so, does targeting variability relate to any of the variability in behavioral effects of HFS across monkeys?

      Although we currently do not have an exact measure of the proportion of fibers blocked by HFS, our targeting approach consistently elicited robust cortical responses across monkeys. Specifically, we implanted the stimulating electrode at the location that produced the maximum peak-to-peak evoked responses in the primary motor cortex. Author response image 2 in this response demonstrates that even a slight deviation (~0.5 mm) from this optimal site reduced these responses substantially.:

      Author response image 2.

      Evoked responses in the primary motor cortex as a function of the location of the stimulation site. [LEFT] Coronal T2-weighted MRI showing the planned trajectory to target the superior cerebellar peduncle (location marked by the tip of the arrowhead) through a round chamber suitably positioned over the skull. [RIGHT] Evoked multi-unit (300-7500 Hz) responses from one of the recording electrodes in the primary motor cortex are used to guide the stimulating electrode to the correct implant site. As the stimulating electrode was lowered deeper, maximum peak-to-peak evoked responses were obtained at a depth of 32.5 mm relative to the cortical surface. This was chosen as the implant site. Elevating or lowering the electrode by ~0.5 mm from this depth reduced the peak-to-peak response amplitude. 

      (2) The emphasis in the Introduction that HFS provides direct insight into deficits seen in patients with cerebellar disease or injury is a bit overstated. Patients have very diverse etiologies, only a modest number of which might be faithfully mimicked by SCP HFS. I would suggest some text acknowledging that this is only a limited model for cerebellar disease or injury.

      We agree with the reviewer that the high-frequency stimulation of the superior cerebellar peduncle provides a limited model that does not fully replicate the diverse pathologies seen in cerebellar disease or injury. In fact, in the introduction section (lines 53-59 of our revised manuscript) we have mentioned that the discrepancy in the conclusions of various clinical studies may reflect the heterogeneity of the individuals with cerebellar lesions who often have differences in lesion etiology and associated damage beyond the cerebellum itself. While this may preclude the generalization of our findings to the wider clinical population per se, our approach offers a precise and controlled method to investigate the immediate and adaptive changes in motor behavior following the disruption of cerebellar signals.

      (3) Do animals with HFS show less decomposition and trajectory variability in their slower movements when compared to their faster movements? Comparisons are only made with velocity-matched control blocks, but the comparison of slower vs. faster reaches during HFS blocks would also be informative.

      To answer this point we classified movements during cerebellar block as either slow or fast based on the median peak hand velocity of the cerebellar block trials per target per session. We then computed the decomposition index and trajectory variability for the fast and slow movements during cerebellar block relative to control in the same way as in Figure 5 of our manuscript (i.e., the percentage change relative to control). Our analysis revealed significantly lower movement decomposition (p < 0.001) and reduced trajectory variability (p < 0.001) for slower movements compared to faster ones within the cerebellar block condition (Author response image 3).

      Author response image 3.

      Effect of slow and fast movements during cerebellar block on movement decomposition and trajectory variability. [LEFT] Change in decomposition index (i.e., the proportion of the movement time during which the movement was decomposed) for slow and fast cerebellar block trials relative to all control trials. The change in median decomposition was computed per session per target and then averaged across all eight targets to arrive at one value per session. The depicted values are the mean ± 95% confidence intervals across all sessions pooled from all four monkeys. The individual means of each monkey are overlaid. [RIGHT] Change in inter-trial trajectory variability for slow and fast cerebellar block trials relative to all control trials. The trajectory variability was measured as the standard deviation of the maximum perpendicular distance of the trajectories from the Y-axis after transforming them as in Figure 5d of the main text. The change in trajectory variability for the fast and slow cerebellar block trials was then computed per session per target and averaged across all eight targets to arrive at one value per session. The depicted values are the mean ± 95% confidence intervals across all sessions pooled from all four monkeys. The individual means of each monkey are overlaid. Statistical significance is denoted as follows: p ≥ 0.05NS, p < 0.05*, p < 0.01**, p < 0.001***. [Cbl: Cerebellar block].

      (4) Line 220- 'velocity' should be 'speed' or 'absolute velocity'?

      The term velocity was changed to speed in  the revised manuscript (line 255).